# Interesting Sailboats



## PCP

*Sirius 32, Sirius 35*

*THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:*

*Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out). Recent designs out of production are also admissible.*

*Modern boat designs and modern one off, if interesting.*

*Classical boats and traditional boats.*

*Small cruisers (less than 35ft)*

*Seezunge 27ft*: PG1-PT9

*Hanse 325*: PG19-PT185;

*Presto 30 :* 33-326; 33-327; 34-331; 34-333; 55-543; 55-544;

*Tess Yachts*: 37-366; 38-373;

*Tess 28 Magnum*: 37-369; 38-371;

*Delphia 28*: 38-373;

*Vancouver 27/28* : 42-412; 72-717;

*Cruisers between 35ft and 49ft*


*Catalina 355 :* 31-306;

*RM sailboats*: PG5-PT41; 5-42

*RM1050*: PG5-PT46; 5-47; 5-48;

*RM 1060*: PG8-PT77; 8-78; 8-79; 8-80; 9-81; 30-295; 40-400; 79-786;

*RM 1200*: PG9-PT84; 9-85; 19-184; 20-191; 20-192; 41-404; 42-414; 42-418; 43-425; 43-426; 69-688;

*RM 1350*: PG9-PT82; 55-549; 95-943;

*Morris Yachts*: PG7-PT61

*Bavaria 36*: PG19-PT188; 19-190; 20-196;

*Bavaria 40*: PG10-PT95; 28-278; 29-281; 29-282; 29-283; 29-286; 32-316; 36-356; 51-502; 51-507; 52-518; 53-527; 53-532;

*Bavaria 40s*: 69-685; 78-775;

*Bavaria 45*: PG10-PT96; 19-190;

*Rustler Yachts*: PG11-PT104;

*Jeanneau 409*: PG11-PT103: 11-106; 30-298; 30-299; 36-356; 51-502; 51-504; 51-505; 51-509; 52-513; 52-514; 52-515; 52-516; 53-527; 54-532; 57-564; 57-570; 58-571; 58-580; 59-581; 59-583; 59-585; 62-614; 74-739; 91-906;

*Jeanneau 439*: 40-396; 40-397; 59-584; 59-585; 96-956;

*Hanse Yachts*: 16-154; 16-156; 16-158;

*Hanse 400*: 81-804;

*Bluewater cruising yachts*: 21-206

*Beneteau Oceanis 37 :* 31-306; 31-308; 31-309; 32-314; 55-541;

*XC 38*: 36-356; 96-954;

*Diva 38*: 39-386;

*Diva 35*: 40-391;

*Dufour 405*: 62-614;

*Defline 43*: 63-622

*Walkabout 43*: 93-923; 93-925; 93-927;

*Small performance cruisers (less than 35ft)*


*Performance 32ft test*: 29-87;

*Sun Fast 3200*: PG4-PT33; 4-34; 4-36; 30-293;

*Elan 210*: 70-691; 70-696; 78-779; 79-781;

*Elan 310*: PC7-PT64; 7-69; 8-71; 36-356; 41-408;

*Quest 33*: PG7-PT62

*Olea 32*: 25-243; 25-245;

*First 27.7*: 38-373; 38-380; 39-382;

*First 30*: 30-295; 39-356; 41-408; 55-545; 55-546;

*Comet 26*: 34-340; 35-345; 35-350; 36-353;

*Pacer 30*: 36-357;

*Django 7.7*: 40-399;

*Vivace/Evosion 34*: 45-442; 45-446; 45-445; 45-446; 45-447; 45-448; 45-449; 45-450; 46-458; 46-460;

*Finn Flyer 34*: 46-451; 46-453; 60-593;

*Salona 34*: 46-457;

*Heol 7.4*: 63-621; 63-622;

*Azuree 33*: 87-867; 91-902; 91-904;

*JPK 10.10*: 88-877 ; 88-880; 89-883;

*Performance cruisers (between 35ft and 49ft)*

*Pogo 10.50*: PG2-PT20; 3-27; 3-28; 3-30; 4-35; 5-50; 6-51; 6-52; 6-60; 11-101; 11-107; 11-110; 43-425; 44-440; 87-861; 87-867;

*Pogo 12.50*: PG13-PT125; 20-198; 20-199; 22-214; 27-264; 27-265; 27-269; 32-317; 32-319; 43-425; 43-426; 43-428; 44-432; 44-437; 44-439; 55-546; 55-547; 82-812; 84-831; 87-870;

*Este 40*: 89-890; 90-893; 90-899;

*A35*: PG5-PT42; 5-44; 66-660;

*A40RC*: 92-914;

*Hammerhead 35*: 64-645

*Opium 39*: PG5-PT42; 9-85; 9-89; 13-125; 22-220; 22-221; 43-426; 55-547; 86-857;

*Aerodyne 35*: PG7-PT62

*Elan 350*: PG7-PT64; 13-24; 13-126; 13-127; 13-128; 14-132; 18-178; 26-255; 36-356; 40-398; 41-405; 57-564; 59-589; 60-591; 72-711; 73-724; 74-738;

*Elan 380*: 23-223; 25-249; 26-256; 40-398; 59-589; 97-962;

*Elan 410:* 32-316; 79-784;

*JPK 110*: PG9-PT85; 10-91

*Olea 44*: PG10-PT100; 27-268;

*Olea Yachts*: 25-247;

*Dufour 40e*: Pg13-Pt125; 32-316; 55-547; 56-558; 56-559; 57-561; 57-562; 57-563; 59-586; 59-588,

*Salona 37*: 36-359; 41-406;

*Salona 41*: PG15-PT141; 15-145; 32-316; 36-356; 40-398; 54-538; 57-569; 78-778; 80-796; 80-798; 97-965;

*Salona 42*: PG15-PT145; 36-359; 40-398; 93-929; 94-932;

*Cigale 16:* PG15-PT148; 16-152; 17-161; 55-549; 63-625;

*Cigale 14*: PG17-PT163; 55-549;

*Santa Cruz 43*: PG17-PT169

*Sydney Yachts*: PG18-PT171; 18-175;

*Sydney GTS 37*: 43-423;

*Sydney GTS 43*: PG18-PT173;

*Winner 12.20*: PG20-193;

*First 40*: 31-304; 32-313; 32-316; 35-344; 36-354; 55-546; 55-547;

*First 35*: 36-356

*Dehler 41*: 30-296;

*Dehler 44*: 79-785;

*Dehler 45*: 36-356; 79-785;

*Luffe 40.04*: 30-300; 31-301; 31-303;

*XP 38*: 56-533; 56-544; 56-555; 67-622;

*XP 44*: 33-325;

*Pacer 430*: 36-357;

*Pacer 376*: 36-357; 66-652; 69-683;

*Faurby 424*: 36-360; 37-361; 37-363; 37-365;

*Comfortina 39*: 40-395;

*J 133*: 43-426; 63-620

*J 111*: 100-993;

*Maxi 11*: 99-982;

*Arcona yachts*: 46-456;

*Arcona 410*: 47-467; 47-468; 47-469; 48-471;

*Arcona 430*: 48-472;

*Arcona 460*: 50-495

*Finngulf yachts*: 46-456;

*Varianta 44*: 60-594; 60-595; 60-596; 60-597; 60-598; 64-639;

*Imagine 53*: 63-628;

*Zou 40.2*: 63-620

*Ker 39*: 68-676;

*Finn-Flyer 42*: 77-762;

*Azuree 40*: 85-842;

*Loft 40*: 85-848; 85-852;

*Vivace 35*: 90-895;

*Sailing boats over 49ft*

*Zeydon 60* : PG 12-119;

*JP 54*: PG18-PT172;

*Salona 60*: 70-695;

*Stadships*: PG20-PT193; 20-195;

*Pogo 50*: 32-318; 32-319;

*X-50*: 54-537;

*Murtic 52*: 54-537;

*Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats*

*Sirius 32*: PG1-PT1

*Sirius 35*: PG1-PT1; 1-10; 2-18; 50-491; 50-492; 60-559; 60-599;

*Sirius 31*: PG1-PT5; 2-17; 36-356;

*Regina 35*: 48-478;

*Regina 40*: PG11-PT104; 49-481; 49-483;

*Southerly yachts*: PG11-PT104;

*Luffe 43DS*: PG12-PT111; 12-115; 50-494;

*Noordkaper 40*: PG14-pt139;

*Noordkaper yachts*: PG16-PT155

*Nordship 36*: 30-297; 49-482;

*Nordship 38*: 49-482; 49-490;

*Paulo's pilot house I*: 38-376; 39-381; 39-383; 39-384;

*Paulo's pilot house* *II*: 69-682

*Lyman & Morse 45*: 38-379;

*CR 38DS*: 48-477; 48-478;

*CR 40DS*: 48-476; 48-478; 48-479; 50-494; 50-496; 50-497; 50-498;

*Arcona 40DS*: 50-494;

*Racers*

*Figaro 2*G4-PT36; 4-37; 5-42; 6-52; 6-53; 6-55; 6-56

*VOR 70*: PG16-PT160; 17-187

*Farr 400*: 67-661

*Soto 40*: 96-952;

*Lifting keel/centerboarder*

*Southerly yachts*: PG11-PT104;

*Allures 45*: PG10-PT93; 100-996;

*Allures yachts*: 25-248;

*OVNI 425*: 23-228;

*OVNI 395* : 68-679; 69-690;

*J 108*: 67-661

*Atlantic 43:* 68-67

*Boreal 44*: 97-970; 98-974;

*Multihulls till 34ft *

*Several Trimarans*: 28-273;

*Multihulls with 34ft and over*

*Dragonfly yachts*: 26-257;

*Dragonfly 35*: 26-258; 27-261; 27-262;

*Dragonfly 1200*: 56-551;

*Corsair 37*: 28-276;

*Farrier 39*: 28-277;

*Challenge 37*: 28-278

*Hammerhead 34*: 29-385;

*Hammerhead 54*: 29-288; 30-292;

*Trimax 10.80*: 29-285;

*Sig 45*: 54-534; 54-539; 54-540;

*Gunboat*: 56-551

*Fusion*: 56-551;

*Outremer*: 56-551;

*Tournier*: 56-511;

*Classical and Traditional boats*

*Jclass boats*: 54-537;

*Tofinou 12*: 71-703;

*Folck boat*: 73-727;

*Puffin Yachts*: PG14-PT135; 14-138; 16-155;

*Bestwind 50*: PG12-PT116; 14-123;

*Bestevaer 53*: PG12-PT116;

*Bestevaer yachts*: PG16-PT155

*Cape George 36*: 41-410; 42-412;

*Marieholm 33* : 42-412;

This list is not actualized. Please use the advanced search engine of the thread with the name of the model and builder. It works, most of the time.

*(actualized till PG100)* and it will be no more because that gives a lot of work (500 pages now).

*Instead I am actualizing the titles and with the right title the thread search engine (not the one on the top of the page bit the one much below that says search thread) on its advanced option works quite well.*

Hello,

Melrna posts on Miami Boat show and the comments of Smackdady about the interest of that thread lead me to think that perhaps I could share more information about sailboats I know and find interesting.

I am interested in boat design (interior and sailing performance) and I go each year at least to one of the main European Boat shows and that means basically Dusseldorf, Paris or Hamburg. On these shows you have the opportunity not only to visit the boats of the main and medium size builders but you have also the opportunity to visit the boats of small and sometime family shipyards.

Normally they build very good sailboats and sometimes they have been doing that for decades. The boats are hugely appreciated by their faithful customers but because they don't advertise their boats and there are very few on the used boat market, they pass unnoticed by the majority of the sail community.

The visit to these boats is a very rewarding experience because they are made with passion by true boat lovers and because when you talk to the guy that is on the boat, you are not talking with a dealer, that many times doesn't know much about boats, but with the builder, or the designer.

Even if you are not a buyer they will have real pleasure in talking with someone that really appreciates and understands their work. Those guys really believe in what they are doing and they do it the best way they can, no matter the cost. In a word, they are in love with what they are doing.
Of course, these boats have to be expensive.

This thread will be mainly about these boats, as a way of letting you know about these gems. Let's see if you are interested. I will not post much. If you want to know more you have just to participate and make questions.

The first one it will be the "Sirius". I have had the pleasure to visit several times their boats and to talk with the builders (father and son).

These boats have the best interiors you can find, or at least that I have seen. Not only the quality, but the design and ergonomy are fantastic. You really won't believe you are in a 32ft boat. Just incredible and amazing; Have a look at it:

Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin | 32 DS for 2 forecabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | 32 DS 4-berth comfort owner´s cabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Workshop | 32 DS for 2 workshop

Now that the son is in charge they have modernized the outside look of the new boats, they look fantastic not only inside but also outside. The boats sail well and they have clients as far as Japan.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Versions of decks house | You have the choice

Another interesting point is the way they develop new boats. They work with the clients to collect suggestions on the shape and design of the boats. A truly interesting affair, between passionate clients and passionate builders.

Sirius-Werft Plön | 35 DS | Philosophy

Take a good look at their interesting site and if you find the boat interesting, please let me know, I can add some information.

Sirius-Werft Plön | english | Welcome at website of Sirius-Werft Plön

Regards

Paulo


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## bljones

The Seezunge C is a beautiful catboat. Check out the bar!

Seezunge C | VA Yachtdesign


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## PCP

*Sirius 35*

Sirius 35:

Some months ago I have been inside that one, in the Dusselodorf Boat show. I chose to present the videos from the 32 because the quality of the first pictures of the 35ft is bad and doesn't make justice to the boat. I think they have finished that boat just in time for the show and had no time to make proper photos.

The 35 is a beautiful boat with a great interior.

preview image
preview image

And a strong boat (don't try this on an Oceanis ).

preview image

I have liked the boat so much that I have even considered to change my plans of buying a 40/42 to have that one (and my wife would not mind at all and she is a pain in the ass in what regards the minim storage space for a decent cruising boat). Unfortunately the boat is considerable more expensive than a 42 mass production sailboat.

I will post some pictures with the items that have impressed me most, and add some comments:

1-	The steering wheel is a knock-out. It is of considerable size to ensure the most comfortable position while sailing, or to be taken out of the way to give passage, it swings from one side to another, or remains in the central position. Take also a look at the very neat arrangement of the bow anchor and to the well designed bath platform and passage to the cockpit.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Bathing Platform | Bathing Platform

2-	Look at the oilskin locker, right where it is supposed to be, on the boat's entrance to the interior, with dedicated space for wet boots, lots of space for jackets and an interior light. I know of very few 50ft that offer such a good and convenient space dedicated to oilskins.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Oilskins Locker | Oilskins Locker
Sirius-Werft Plön | Your individual yacht | Your individual yacht

3 - Click on the last two pictures and see why my wife likes this one. These guys are perfectionists to the point of obsession. Look at all that storage space and in the way all space is used the best possible way to be useful.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Pantry | Pantry

4-Look at the main room. It is incredibly "open" and big for a 35ft. It is not very apparent on the photos, but this "room" has a nice view. Look at the size of the hull ports, or should I say "windows"? I believe they are the same that are used on the big Hanse (630). Look at the zenithal light that comes from the top (big hatch) and the small portlight for ventilation.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | Owner´s cabin

5 - Look at the front cabin that in many bigger boats would be a very good owner's cabin. It has a small sofa, like the other and also a small hull portlight. Plenty of light from above and lots of storage space. Look at the quality of the wood work.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Front cabin | Front cabin

6-Look at the size and quality of the head. Look at the completely separated shower room (on the opposite side of the head). Plenty of space, plenty of light. If you are taking a shower, the head remains available to be used by another person.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Shower & toilet room | Shower & toilet room

7-The photos of the saloon are really bad and don't give you any idea of the quality of the space, but you can see that besides the upper hatch you have two very good quality side waterproof openings of considerable size, for lateral ventilation and you may notice also that all "windows" are situated at the right height to give you a perfect all around view, while seated. These windows are made of safety-glass in double aluminum frames. The windows are approved for world-wide cruise for impact of breaking waves.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Saloon | Saloon

8-You have a big technical room, and it is not only big but with the right things in the right places; I mean you have a work bench and dedicated space to store all that stuff that you need to have, but never know where to store it.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Technic Room | Technic Room

9-This boat has a standard draft of 1.9M (lots of options) and in that configuration a lead ballast of 2.6T, for a total weight of 7.4T. That means that this boat will have more ballast than an Oceanis 43 (2.5T).
This means that this boat, with a very good ballast/displacement ratio, will have a very good stability with special relevance to the reserve stability.

10-This boat, notwithstanding the huge amount of interior space is not a beamy boat, with a 3.45M as max beam and only 3.15 on the waterline. For example, an Oceanis 34 will have 3.65 as max. beam. This points to an easily driven hull that will go well against the wind with not much pounding.

11-The boat has a 22 m² self-tacking jib, main sail 29 m² (automatic single line reefing) that will not be much for a 7.4T boat, but will guarantee a boat that will be easily handed in bad weather. The drawings show a big geenaker well positioned way from the front sail. This can be a fixed sail mounted on a roller, it is an option and it has 90m2. It will work like a giant genoa and will give the punch needed to sail well with weak winds.

12-This boat can have optionally a 55hp engine. This will give the boat almost the capabilities of a motor-sailor. A motor sailor that is also a good sailing boat .

13-This boat comes with a good standard inventory, including teak decks and has a list of optional that includes bullet proof windows among a lot of other more useful items like full batten mainsail and a redesigned mast for cutter stay with a second roller furling system.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Technical datas | Technical datas

14-There is something that I don't like? Yes, I don't like the anchor locker and the impossibility to have an easy access to the chain on the bottom. I will prefer an open well and the winch situated on the opposite position (back), but that is easy to change and these guys will tailor the boat to your needs. I believe that they have learned a lot with the modifications that their clients had done in their boats and I believe also that they have mostly good and experienced sailors as clients, because the final result is a very sophisticated and practical sailboat.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Anchor Locker | Anchor Locker

15-A final note about the hull design: I will bet that you are going to look at these sleek hull lines and are going to think: How the hell is it possible to put that huge interior on this sleek hull? You will not be the first one .

preview image
preview image
preview image

This is a Great sailing boat, a boat that will raise admiration among all true sailors. A boat that will permit to cruise comfortably and living aboard without the extra costs that a bigger boat will inevitably bring (costs of marinas, maintenance, antifouling and so on). This boat will be a lot more easy to sail and mainly, a boat a lot more easy to put in and out of a tight marina.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

bljones said:


> The Seezunge C is a beautiful catboat. Check out the bar!
> 
> Seezunge C | VA Yachtdesign


You will find also some very beautiful and fast classic cruisers. Marc-Olivier seems to be a very versatile boat architect.

But regarding the Catboat, yes it is beautiful, it has a very open and nice interior but where the hell is the head?


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## PCP

bljones said:


> What is the price point, pcp?


I only have the 35ft price. Basic boat costs around 223 000 without VAT.


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## imagine2frolic

Are you familiar with the Schmidt Boatyard in Germany?.........*i2f*


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## PCP

imagine2frolic said:


> Are you familiar with the Schmidt Boatyard in Germany?.........*i2f*


You mean this Schmidt Boatyard:

YouTube - Made in Germany | Boatbuilder Michael Schmidt

Eight years ago I went to the Hamburg boat show to buy a Hanse (34ft). It turns out that the front cabin was too small for my size and I ended up with a Bavaria 36. The guys from Bavaria proposed me a far better deal.

The Hanse are good boats. I would rate them for instance over Beneteau and under Dehler in what regards boat quality (by the way, they have bought Dehler).

They have a very good boat forum, supported by the manufacturer. We know that all boats have issues, but they have the courage to bring it all to the open. This permits the manufacturer to have a better understanding of what is wrong and what they need to change. They have a good after sales service and generally clients are satisfied and proud of their boats.

myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum

It's a medium size manufacturer that is increasing in size and becoming a big one. But their boats are not in the same league as Sirius boats, not in quality, not in price.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Sirius 31*



JimMcGee said:


> Paulo, You're right I was looking at the 32. I was really taken with the boat. It's not much larger than my 30 but it's a completely different design approach. Jim


Jim, this is the 31ft, the one that is going to substitute the 32. I believe that the interiors will be very similar but the hull is much more modern (and faster) and the outside design is much more elegant. They are building the first one.

On the last "Voile" (French) Magazine there is a small insert about the boat.
They call it "Le roi du salon de pont"- The king of the deck salons. A small king, but nevertheless, a king

It will cost around 130 000 euros (without VAT)










































Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Sirius 35*

Last post about Sirius Yachts:

I will finish with some nice renderings of the 35. It is really a good looking boat. you have a lot of information about this one (and more pictures) at the post nº 10 of this thread.


























The next boat in this thread, unless someone wants to post another one, will be quite the opposite to SIRIUS.

A small and very inexpensive daysailer and basic mini-cruiser. It is a very old and a very new boat

It was once a huge sucess in Europe...and it will be again. In two months they have sold more than 50. You buy it through the internet, it is a 18ft sailingboat and it costs 10 000 euros, about half the price of other similar sized boat.

Do you want to guess?

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Pogo 10.50*

It seems that nobody is interested in a 10 000 euros 18ft basic cruiser made by one of the most reputable European boat builders, so I am going to change subject, I mean, boat.

I would like to talk about some interesting and fast marginal cruising boats that are being a success in Europe. Not big, because the market they are pointing to is not a big one, but big enough to have them built in a production line. Pogo, in one year have sold 40 of their new 10.5 and Wauquiez have discontinued the production of their 40ft cruiser-racer and are manufacturing one of these.

Normally around here, when you talk of a fast cruiser, you are talking of a cruiser-racer, boats with a relatively good (or even very good) interior, made for fast cruising and for club racing, with a crew and most of them optimized for IRC racing. Boats like First, Performance line by Dufour, Performance line by Elan, Dehler, X-yacht, Arcona, Finngulf are just some examples. These boats are better sailing boats, adapted to cruising, more seaworthy and more expensive than their pure cruising siblings.

But the boats that I am talking about have little in common with these boats, First they are not designed taking into account any rule, except the design rules to make them faster and safer, second they are not aiming at crews, but at the solo sailor and third they have not luxury interiors, but solid, light and functional interiors, I would say very basic interiors. They make the sailing part of cruising the principal object of their design.

They are the opposite of modern mass production boats. While for the typical mass production cruiser, living at the marina is one of the principal design directives, on these ones, sailing is what matters, and having pleasure while doing it, the objective . These babies are made to go fast and away, out on the bluewater and can outperform any of the cruiser-racers that I have referred to&#8230;.I mean a 35ft of these can outperform any 40ft of those .

As you can suspect, I am a big fan, but unfortunately, even produced in small series these boats are expensive. They are made with the best materials, hi-tech everywhere except on the furniture and, as I have said on another thread, a very good and well built sailing boat with a basic interior will be much more expensive than a basic sailboat with a good interior and I would add, unfortunately .

Let us talk about the Pogo 10,5. I will post some photos and the link&#8230;.and if you are interested, just ask and I can probably add some more information. If you like it, please post some feedback.


















Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

The Pogo 10.50 i a 35ft and it costs, fully equipped, more than 200 000 euro. 

I know that boat is quite the opposite of what you find in the American market. It is very fast, it is basic, but you can cross safely oceans with it and it has plenty of space for a couple.

On Europe in less than a year Pogo have sold 40. That means that around here there are a market for cruisers that would trade a certain kind of comfort, for speed and sail pleasure… the Pogo 10.50 is the boat they favor in this moment (sail boat of the year).


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## nemier

PCP,
I have always enjoyed your posts, and look forward to more of them.
I've spent 15 years living over in Europe, work there now, and am somewhat familiar with the European sailboat manufacturers. That said, I personally prefer the J109 (built in France?) to the Pogo 10.5. You want to discuss one against the other?


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## bb74

The 10.50 has forced me to go back to work - I just need one!!!

The guys at the shipyard are very nice and welcoming. The boat is beautiful and it just works like a charm. Quite practical & livable as well - just a do it all sailboat that will get you from point A to point B in no time.


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## bb74

nemier said:


> PCP,
> I have always enjoyed your posts, and look forward to more of them.
> I've spent 15 years living over in Europe, work there now, and am somewhat familiar with the European sailboat manufacturers. That said, I personally prefer the J109 (built in France?) to the Pogo 10.5. You want to discuss one against the other?


Having sailed a 109 but only been on the 10.50 here's an initial take. The 109 is a cruiser/racer. The 10.50 is an offshore/cruiser.

The 109 has more creature comforts down under but is more cramped, less airy, and has less stowage and space. Above deck it is really well thought out but the wheel & main track positioning clutters up the latter half of the cockpit. It is a well built boat that is a bit of a do it all design from a pointing perspective. Sails and responds well. Certainly not worth (in my opinion) the premium compared to other boats in the range - SF32, 34.7, Dehler34, etc... 90's design before widespread planing hulls that can point (Finot et al)

The 10.50 is a more spartan environment underdeck but it is pretty open and airy. Decent stowage and although it's not classy, the drawers & lockers just work. The team really applied the KISS principle and although the lack of wood grain & trim may be an initial turn off given the price, there's a lot of smart thinking that's gone into it. Above deck it is a very well laid out cockpit and controls are readily available for singlehanding. Dual tiller opens up the space at anchor and there's room for the whole crew. the boat is very well made - feels rock solid and very well built - easy access to systems and areas of potential repair. Crashbox up front and excellent deck hardware. You can tell from my previous post that I'm a fan. This boat can point and maintain speed and off wind it's a monster! That's the 2 for 1 deal with some of these modern designs vs. the J boats these days. You get it all AND the swing keel to get where the other boats of half the performance can't reach. I see this as the near perfect boat for the sailing crowd that doesn't mind the lack of wood trim and some creature comforts.

I can easily see going on that 3 month family cruise, then a year later doing the ARC, then island hopping on the weekends, then heading off into the yonder for another destination. I'll take the concession of not having woodgrain & felt interiors for a boat that will regularly hit 13-15 kts safely off-wind and open up so many more navigation zones for short trips because of this. That's just me.


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 10.50 / J109*



nemier said:


> PCP,
> I have always enjoyed your posts, and look forward to more of them.
> ..., I personally prefer the J109 (built in France?) to the Pogo 10.5. You want to discuss one against the other?


Thanks! 

<O</O
Marty is right. Those boats are very different. Th J109 is a great boat, but a boat designed to be competitive in IRC and to be raced with a crew. To go fast upwind The boat really needs the weight of a full crew on the side of the boat and to go really fast downwind it needs weight on the back of the boat (crew) and a very experienced hand at the wheel. It is not a forgiving boat (if sailed on the limit), but it is a boat that is a lot fun to sail, because it is a fast nervous and demanding boat.

Both boats are about the same lenght but the J107 weighs 4,944kg and has a 2.1M draft (deep Keel) with a 3.51M beam and the Pogo weighs 3600kg with a 3.9M beam and a 2.8M draft.
That means that not only the Pogo is a much more stable boat (heels a lot less) as it is also a much lighter boat.

How is that done? Easy, while the J109 design is constrained by the IRC rules (to be racing competitive) the Pogo is designed with pure efficiency in mind (smal crew sailing). It is the offspring of many years of open solo ocean boat's development from the minis to the open 60's. The Pogo is lighter because its huge stability comes not only from a much superior form stability (beam) but also because its keel is a lot deeper . To have( a smaller) stability, the J109 with na inferior beam and with a much shorter keel, has to rely on ballast, and lots of it. The boat carries 1769kg ballast, and therefore it is heavier.

Probably both boats will go upwind at the same speed, providing you have the crew sitting on the side of the J109, downwind probably the Pogo will go faster, but that is not the point. The point is that you don't need a crew to go really fast on the Pogo and that, while on the J109 you need a crew and an experienced wheelman to go at 16k downind, on a Pogo&#8230;you can sleep and leave the job to the autopilot. The Pogo is a very forgiving boat that goes fast with little heeling. The J is a nervous boat, (not a forgiving boat if sailed fast) and a boat that is designed to heel a lot while sailing fast.

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/croisiere/feuilletage/307/feuilletage-croisiere-essai-course-croisiere-pogo-10-50-structures-finot-conq
Photos

So, if you want to go club racing around the cans with a full and experienced crew, the J109 is the boat. If you want to cross the Atlantic fast, solo or with a mate, then the Pogo is your boat. Both boats, in their own way are very good fast sailing boats and boats that give a lot of pleasure to sail.

Of course, with the Pogo you can also pull the keel up and go to the beach .

Another diference is that the interior space of the Pogo is much bigger (beam) and also its load capacity and that increases its autonomy.

I leave you with the words of the Designer, Jean Marie Finot, the" father" of the French racing designers and the man that more contributed to the development of the Open solo boats (and its safety) :

"Pogo 10.50 is an offshore-going boat,
able to find shelter in any cove. Designed with simplicity in mind, it is fast and doesn't heel much. It can accomodate a family or a gang of friends. The hull is very wide and stable, with a deep lifting keel. The twin rudders keep control in all conditions.
The balance of the boat is retained under heel, allowing large sails to be carried. Stability and sail area grant high speed in all conditions.
All the lines are led back to the large cockpit. A stowage aft is dedicated to the liferaft."

The man is now aproaching 70, has designed hundreds of boats, and guess what his personal boat is? A Pogo 10.50, to have fun while cruising with his wife. My kind of sailor .

http://www.finot.com/ecrits/ecritsurg/finotfather.htm
Groupe Finot, Architectes navals

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Interesting that Finot's personal boat is a P10.50. Daniel Andreau(sp?) whom designed the SF3200 also has an SF3200 for family usage too. The only boat he has designed that he also has bought and sails. Not sure what that means................

I have to admit, I like these style of boats. Granted the SF3200 and the P10.50 are different price zones, ie the Pogo is x2 of the sf3200, as such one would expect the pogo to have higher tech items on board, without reading the specs, would assume a carbon vs alum mast, from posts, a lift keel(?) vs fixed on the SF. I would suspect some Carbon or kevlar fiber reinforcement and epoxy vs FRP for the SF. BUT< both have the same general design spec as to whom might want them. Not sure I can afford the Pogo, but the SF I could!

Both are beauty's in there own right. 

The J109 on the other hand, also a beauty in her own right, along with the slightly smaller J97. Reality is as mentioned, the J's and the SF/Pogo have different design specs, target audience, etc.

If any one of the 4 would show up in my slip to replace my 85 Jeanneau Arcadia, no big deal, I'd be a HAPPY camper......ooops......Sailor!

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Sunfast 3200*



blt2ski said:


> Interesting that Finot's personal boat is a P10.50. Daniel Andreau(sp?) whom designed the SF3200 also has an SF3200 for family usage too. The only boat he has designed that he also has bought and sails. Not sure what that means................
> 
> I have to admit, I like these style of boats. Granted the SF3200 and the P10.50 are different price zones, ie the Pogo is x2 of the sf3200, as such one would expect the pogo to have higher tech items on board, without reading the specs, would assume a carbon vs alum mast, from posts, a lift keel(?) vs fixed on the SF. I would suspect some Carbon or kevlar fiber reinforcement and epoxy vs FRP for the SF. BUT< both have the same general design spec as to whom might want them. Not sure I can afford the Pogo, but the SF I could!
> 
> Both are beauty's in there own right.
> 
> The J109 on the other hand, also a beauty in her own right, along with the slightly smaller J97. Reality is as mentioned, the J's and the SF/Pogo have different design specs, target audience, etc.
> 
> Marty


Yes, I agree. The Jeanneau 3200 has a place on this thread.

It is a very interesting boat, it has nothing in common with other jeanneau boats and has a very surprising price, possible because the boat is built by Jeanneau in relatively large numbers. It is also a small fast oceangoing boat, very adapted to solo sailing and designed in the open boat tradition (minis and open 60's).

I believe it that it is very revealing that both the 10.50 and the 3200 Designers have chosen to buy them as their personal boats. That gives you also an image of the typical French boat designer that, I believe it is different than most boat designers around the world: They love fast sailing boats, have their roots in racing sailing boats, particularly solo and small crew ocean racing sailboats. They are not only designers, but also sailors and it says a lot that both of them think that the most enjoyable boat to cruise is a light fast boat with a light but practical interior.

Daniel Andrieu have designed a lot of racing boats, from Class America boats to the 90's most popular French monotype, the Jod 35.

AndrieuDesign - Achievements - Sail

I am going to have some days of vacations and I am going to travel, for a week or so, in the UK (Southeast), so I will not be around, but I would like to invite Marty to post on this thread about the Sunfast 3200 and ask BB74 to answer questions or to continue the discussion on the Pogo 10.5. After all it seems he is going to have one, while my wife has threaten me with divorce, if I buy one. He has also been inside one while I have only been inside its big brother, the 40class boat.

Just to open the Sunfast 3200 presentation, some videos about it:

Transquadra - Transat solitaire et double réservée aux amateurs. 













Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

There's a 3 year wait list on the Pogo 10.50 for a reason. Having said that some could be looking to swap options to a later date so last I spoke a 2013 delivery schedule could work... Last I spoke with the builders, there were a few slots late 2013 but that was 2 months ago so you never know...

I've not yet bought one, but my wife is OK with it so once we do the trial by fire with the kids in May on another boat, it may be tough not to write the check... I'll keep you posted.

190K € is a lot of coin but the good thing is with the demand, and the controlled volumes, the resale actually holds very well on these boats. Same can be said for the 8.50, not so much for the Open 40 given it's pure racing focus. Knowing there is a high probability you can sell the boat if the need arises and at a good rate is a comfort vs. ponying up top dollar for more mass market boats that may take a big hit (31.7, 34.7, etc, etc). Overall there will be a premium for usage but I don't think on a 5 year basis it would cost more than a 20K€ difference between going with a 10.50 or a more mainstream boat - that's a reasonable trade off for some to get this type of boat but I freely admit, it's reach for quite a few.


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

have a good vacation.

Here is an english SF3200 site, just do the .com part for french, or hit the french flag in lower left.

sunfast3200, Sail boat

This is supposed to be the equal to a half an open 60. If funds were there, one about 3-4' or about 1-1.5 meters longer would be nicer frankly. But if one ended up in my slip, I'd be a happy camper!

Hopefully this depression the US is having ends sooner than later so I can maybe order a new one. if not, then if I am lucky, someday maybe I can find a used one. I might have to go to Europe, oh well, buy use, do the transquandra, sail to east cost US, truck up here to the NW US! or sail thru panama up left coast to Washington where I am.......hmmmmmm.......

There are a few JOD 35's around here. one won a SH trans atlantic race last summer.

Another that interests me is the Beneteau Figarou(sp?) but the chance of getting one here in the states is slimmer than slim. It is not even listed on the US site, the European sites list it. I have not had a chance to really look it over, but from what I can tell, similar specs design usage of the SF/Pogo boats. Then again, an Open 40 would be kewl too!

Marty


----------



## bb74

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> have a good vacation.
> 
> Here is an english SF3200 site, just do the .com part for french, or hit the french flag in lower left.
> 
> sunfast3200, Sail boat
> 
> This is supposed to be the equal to a half an open 60. If funds were there, one about 3-4' or about 1-1.5 meters longer would be nicer frankly. But if one ended up in my slip, I'd be a happy camper!
> 
> Hopefully this depression the US is having ends sooner than later so I can maybe order a new one. if not, then if I am lucky, someday maybe I can find a used one. I might have to go to Europe, oh well, buy use, do the transquandra, sail to east cost US, truck up here to the NW US! or sail thru panama up left coast to Washington where I am.......hmmmmmm.......
> 
> There are a few JOD 35's around here. one won a SH trans atlantic race last summer.
> 
> Another that interests me is the Beneteau Figarou(sp?) but the chance of getting one here in the states is slimmer than slim. It is not even listed on the US site, the European sites list it. I have not had a chance to really look it over, but from what I can tell, similar specs design usage of the SF/Pogo boats. Then again, an Open 40 would be kewl too!
> 
> Marty


the new Figaro are really race boats. Undersides are all about carrying extra sails & rigging so I couldn't see refitting for a family type cruise. It's the difference between camping and doing outdoors bivouac if you see what I mean. They are ocean going boats however and work very well. I haven't been on the new model but have been on the previous one. Very technical rigging and you need to tune, tune, tune to get the best out of them.


----------



## bb74

nemier said:


> Excellent thread guys, thanks for the discussion.
> I'm in Trinidad right now with a dial-up connection, so I'll make this brief. Has anyone mentioned the RM 10.50?? This seems to be in the same sort of genre. Any comments? At initial glance, I like this boat!


RM's - nice but haven't sailed on one visited in boat shows.

Pretty good reputation as a do anything boat, but no-where near the performance of the Pogo, Bongo, etc type builds. Well thought out, a number of transat & other trips. Pricey but again, good reputation with the builders & owners.


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> RM's - nice but haven't sailed on one visited in boat shows.
> Pretty good reputation as a do anything boat, but nowhere near the performance of the Pogo, Bongo, .... Well thought out, a number of transat & other trips. Pricey but again, good reputation with the builders & owners.


Yes, I agree (not about the price). I have visited the factory and I was impressed. These boats deserve a special place in this thread (as very interesting boats), they are fast, but they are not on the same category of Pogo (or Bongo) so we will talk about them later...I will only say that I like them a lot...and that the RM 1200 is the boat my wife prefers (it could be worse  ).



blt2ski said:


> Here is an english SF3200 site, just do the .com part for french, or hit the french flag in lower left.
> 
> sunfast3200, Sail boat
> This is supposed to be the equal to a half an open 60. If funds were there, one about 3-4' or about 1-1.5 meters longer would be nicer frankly. But if one ended up in my slip, I'd be a happy camper! Hopefully this depression the US is having ends sooner than later so I can maybe order a new one. if not, then if I am lucky, someday maybe I can find a used one. I might have to go to Europe, oh well, buy use, do the transquandra, sail to east cost US, truck up here to the NW US! or sail thru panama up left coast to Washington where I am.......hmmmmmm
> 
> Another that interests me is the Beneteau Figarou(sp?) but the chance of getting one here in the states is slimmer than slim. It is not even listed on the US site, the European sites list it. I have not had a chance to really look it over, but from what I can tell, similar specs design usage of the SF/Pogo boats. Then again, an Open 40 would be kewl too!
> 
> Marty


Marty,

BB74 is right. The Figaro are race boats, less comfortable (for cruising) than a Sunfast 3200 and very technical boats&#8230;made for the best Ocean solo sailors to fight with equal arms. On the Figaro the guys from the open 60 meet with the kids from the Minis , and the "Figaristes" just to see who is the fastest.

I remember the comment of a well known Open 60 sailor that also races the "Figaro": He says that perhaps the Figaro could have more "power" but while on an Open 60 they have to manage the boat (not to break) with a Figaro is full blast all the time - the boat can take anything.

But there is another boat that is adapted for what you want. It is an Oceangoing boat, a little faster than the Sunfast, bigger and a lot better under IRC racing: The A35

The boat is a winner. Take a look:

http://www.archambault-boats.eu/maintenance/dir_upload/docs/A35PALMARES.pdf

It is also the boat that has won the last Transquadra in Duo. But for the Transquadra they fit the boat with a different Keel, for better efficiency ... but that would penalize the boat under IRC (that's the stupidity of any rating rule, you do not design the better boat, but only the fastest boat under the rules).

They have a racing version but also a very fast cruising one&#8230;and that one comes with a very acceptable interior. Beautiful boat anyway.

BATEAUX ARCHAMBAULT

I believe you want to say a 40 class boat and not an Open 40. Almost all the 40 Class boats on the used market are racing boats. The cruising ones are very few....and with a 3 meters draft you are very limited in what regards cruising. Of course, if you plan to be a rich man , you can buy the new baby from Pogo, the 12.50.

Pogo

This one, like its little brother, the 10.50, has a movable keel and variable draft. An incredibly beatiful boat, even better than the 10.50 and with movable ballast...but at a price that is not for everybody, I am afraid (I want one).

Regarding the availability of these kinds of boats in the States, I would look to Maritinica. Lots of French boats there.

If you have the money go right now for this one :

Opium 39 Martinique

Very good price, very fast boat&#8230;and also a very good cruising one.

The Opium 39 is a Lombard designed boat. Its production (very small series) stopped some years back, but the design is so up to date that Wauquiez is going to start producing them, replacing its 40 cruising-racer

Wauquiez - Les Bateaux Lumière

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Rn 1050*



nemier said:


> Excellent thread guys, thanks for the discussion.
> I'm in Trinidad right now with a dial-up connection, so I'll make this brief. Has anyone mentioned the RM 10.50?? This seems to be in the same sort of genre. Any comments? At initial glance, I like this boat!


Well you are not the only one liking this boat. This is the more popular boat of the RM range and RM is one of the boat manufacturers that has grown more in the last years. No crisis for RM.

As pictures can say a lot I will post some that are revealing. Take also a look at the interior on the 360º pictures (link at the end)) and at the boat technical characteristics and at some unusual ones: Big tankage, lots of stability (form stability and ballast), big rig, lots of sail, cutter rig, fine entries, twin keels almost racing setup in what concerns running rigging, big interior with lots of light, good quality, comfortable and functional interior with plenty views to the scenery....and made of wood. I mean marine plywood impregnated with epoxy. They say it makes a stronger boat, compared with the fiberglass ones.

RM YACHTS | Le concept

RM YACHTS | RM 1050

That's an unusual boat, to say the least...and if I say that this is a favorite boat among the French bluewater sailors and among the ones that really sail a lot, that it is very difficult to find them at the used market and that it is one of the boats that loses less value....you would have to agree that it is an interesting boat.


































































Visite 360Â°

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

Paulo,
Imagine I'm buying you an RM1050, 
is it going to be twin keel or single??


----------



## PCP

*RM 1050 / Twin keels*



nemier said:


> Paulo,
> Imagine I'm buying you an RM1050,
> is it going to be twin keel or single??


That's not possible cause I have not one but I think all of them (10.50) are twin keel. Everybody goes with the twins.

The shipyard says about it:

"Jusqu'à aujourd'hui, nous étions et restons totalement convaincus de l'excellence des biquilles conçus par Marc Lombard et mis en œuvre chez RM : tirant d'eau réduit, couple de rappel optimisé, plan anti-dérive parfait, stabilité de route, capacité à échouer, performances étonnantes à toutes les allures.
Ce principe de biquilles performantes, que nous sommes les seuls au monde à exploiter, reste un des axes fondamentaux de notre politique. Cependant, autant nos clients français en ont parfaitement compris la pertinence, autant les marchés export restent dubitatifs&#8230;

A la demande de nos importateurs dans les différents pays où RM est présent (Espagne, Italie, Norvège, Grande Bretagne), nous avons décidés de proposer une version GTE (Grand tirant d'Eau) en monoquille pour les RM1050 et RM1200. Marc Lombard travaille actuellement sur les dessins de quilles, de sorte que nous puissions équiper les RM1050 et RM1200 qui le demanderont à compter de l'automne 2008."

I mean, if you really want, they will make you a single keel (only proposed very recently) but the original concept is a Twin. The twin keels are almost as performant as the single (minimal difference really) and have the added advantage of less draft and the possibility of putting the boat out of the water, for small repairs or antifouling, or just to go at the beach .

The single keel is proposed more for the 1200 and especially for the 1350, for the guys that want to do offshore racing. They are not ridiculous at that. An RM 1200 has done well on a med offshore race against racing boats (3th and 4th) and this 1350 (look at the link) is going to race the "Route du Rhum" (famous and big transat) and I bet that it is going to be among the first cruisers-racers, if not the first (and the boat was not even designed as a cruiser-racer, but as a fast cruiser):

RM YACHTS | Actualités

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

FWIW - youtube of the Pogo 10.50...

YouTube - cocody spiouestfrance dimanche 4

Maiden voyage they hit 20 knots...






or Spi Quest race...






Makes everything get a whole lot closer!


----------



## PCP

Wow! That's my idea of fun. They are having so much fun they shout out of pleasure!!! 

Thanks for the videos. 

I know that a lot of guys are going to look at the videos and are going to say: That's a racing boat, for racing sailors.

No, it is not, it is a cruising boat for sailors that like to have pleasure while sailing. That's the same boat that we have posted about in this thread, the one that can pull the keel up and go right to the beach . If you take a good look you can see that the boat is going straight as an arrow and that the tiller guy is relaxed and the boat is fully in control while the other guys are just enjoying the ride. 

Easy, fast and versatile....What a boat 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

Exactly!

Stable at speed - you could be down under making coffee & a snack for the crew at 20 knots because the boat is stable at speed.

Even the upwind routes are pretty good, stability and pounding wise. I was supposed to do a test sail in April but calendars permitting, it may be more along the lines of May now.

Finot knows how to design boats and I can't wait to try this one!

and for those wondering about the Figaro (another Finot boat btw...)


----------



## nemier

Cool!
Andy Lepiarczyk sailed a Figaro single handed around the world last year.
I have spoken to him about it a number of times but haven't managed to see his boat yet "mighty chicken" Perhaps next time home I'll get a chance.


----------



## PCP

*Voyage*



nemier said:


> Cool!
> Andy Lepiarczyk sailed a Figaro single handed around the world last year.
> I have spoken to him about it a number of times but haven't managed to see his boat yet *"mighty chicken"* Perhaps next time home I'll get a chance.


What a name for a boat  

If someone want to know more about a 60 year old guy circunavigating in a small modern and fast boat:

West Van resident conquers open seas

Pogoria.org - Off Around the World

Be carefull with the last one. Unless you speack Pollish, click only on the links on the end of the page.

He says that the average speed was 132 miles a day. That gives an average of 5.5K. Not bad

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

Hi Marty,
I owe Mr. Lepiarczyk a visit. You are welcome to join me. The last time I spoke to Andy, he welcomed me aboard his boat. To this date, I have always been overseas (as I am now) and have not been able to take him up on his offer. He is such a nice, accomodating guy. I can't wait to meet him. He just loves to talk about sailing, so he's got the right audience here!

He told me he couldn't find a suitable vessel in NA, so he flew over to France and singlehanded the boat back to Vancouver, via Panama. This guys got balls and my hat goes off to him. That's official.

We sometimes strive to emulate our Heroes, and that's my goal. To do what he did, but I want to take the love-of-my-life with me.
My ears are wide open, trying to keep mouth closed, and keep learning (fast!)


----------



## nemier

When I first laid my eyes on the Pogo, I loved it, but then I eyeballed the swing keel and my heart sank. Because I do not want a gimacky boat. My next sail boat must be as simple as possible. I figured the swing keel was just another area of possible concern. Then PCP and BB74 come along and demonstrate that my original thinking may be off. I watch the videos and realize that perhaps I was too hasty. Certainly my initial opinion of the J109 has changd from listening to this thread. Anyway, the types of boats we are talking about in this thread is what I'm currently spending my research time on.

Drop me a PM and I'll arrange a meeting for us to see Mighty Chicken.


----------



## PCP

*Pogo swing keel*



blt2ski said:


> I looked up the Pogo the other day a bit more. About as I figured it would be different from a SF3200. Not sure the swing keel would be my cup of tea, but interesting none the less. For sailing here where I am, I would prefer a fixed keel version if there was one. ...Marty


The swing keel has nothing to do with a centerboard swing keel. On those the keel has no ballast, on the Pogo, all the keel is ballast and most of it is at the bottom (2.80M). If they had a fixed keel, to give the boat the same characteristics (big stability and low weight), they would have to put a keel with about the same draft. A boat with 2,8M draft would not be practical for cruising purposes...and the solution was the swing keel.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Daysailer, Morris yachts*



blt2ski said:


> ....
> ...
> I do know and understand that in Europe the smaller builders do a bit better than here in NA. Not to say there are not some smaller builders, BUT, the ones that do build here, seem to build "Old Shoes" shall we say or call them. Getting a reasonable high tech style boat like the Pogo, SF3200 or equal is hard. There is someone I recall is starting to build a Transat 6.5 in Texas that is reasonable in price per say. BUT< that is WAY WAY to small for spouse and keeping her happy. There are a few smaller builders, but they do not generally speaking, other than Morris yachts in Maine, seem to have smaller runs of boats. I would not call the Morris boat yard a high tech yard like a pogo. They do build excellent yachts mind you, but not what I would call a style "Marty" wants!
> ...
> Marty


Marty,

I believe that the reason why you have less "modern" small boat hi-tech builders in the NA is because unfortunately there are fewer sailors interested in these kinds of boats there.

I know Morris yard. I have talked with some of the guys on the 2008 Dusseldorf boat show. They have boats with incredible quality and finish at some incredible prices too . I like particularly the M series (traditional old style day sailors). Yes I like all kinds of beautiful boats . But Morris yard has nothing of a high tech shipyard. In what concerns hull design, not even the fastest and more ambitious design (the 51) can be considered modern.

Anyway I have to say, that modern or not, I find the Morris 46 (very classical) and the Morris 51 (more modern) very beautiful boats and if I could own one (specially the 51) I would be a happy man . Considering basic prices, no taxes and 2008 prices, the 46 was priced at around 800000USD and the 51 at 1140000USD. Considering taxes, actual prices and equipment, you can add at least 50% to that price. Why am I talking of such big boats? Because, by design (Hull), the interior of the Morris yachts is very small. The interior of the 46 has about the same interior space of, for instance, a Najad 410, or a RM 1200 and that's in the size I am interested in.

Daysailer | Morris Yachts
Morris 46 | Morris Yachts
Blue water sailboat | Morris Yachts

When talking about small American Hi-tech shipyard, the name that comes to my mind is Aerodyne. But looking better I found out that it is not really an American shipyard ...Well, we can say half American, because they use an American architect and I believe that a substantial part of their boats is sold in America (they have a dealer in America).

The Architect I am talking about is Roger Martin and he is responsible for some very interesting, fast and modern boats, American boats.

Rodger Martin Yacht Design

But probably the Aerodyne boat that is more interesting to this thread is a Finot design. The A-35. The A35 is a kind of precursor of the Pogo 10.50...designed and built 10 years earlier. It is still a very interesting boat.

But even with water ballast and a bulb keel, to have the kind of performance he wanted, Finot could not reduce the draft to less than 2.5M and that is unpractical for cruising. That's why he has directed his work and thoughts to a practical lifting keel, to obtain the same performance without losing the cruising practicability.

Read this boat test and see how the guys of a relatively conservative American magazine were impressed by the boat:

http://www.aerodyne.fi/assets/models/ad35/ad35_review.pdf
Aerodyne Yachts Ltd.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Quest 33, Roger Martin*

Eh!eh! IT looks that I have found an interesting American sailboat, a modern and a very fast one. I had never heard about it. Does someone know the Quest boats? I have found them looking at the boats designed by Roger Martin: Find a good designer and you will find good boats

Roger Martin says about it:

"The Quest 33 is a superb example of a fast contemporary "club racer" in which a family can comfortably cruise, and win 'round-the-buoys or point-to-point races under PHRF. *These boats are Open Designs, and are not based on any restrictive rules!* The Quest 33 is a development of the successful Quest 30, designed by us and built by Holby Marine Co. 
The Quest 33 offers a finer entry for increased upwind speed, a longer waterline for greater speed all 'round and larger interior and cockpit spaces. ...

This is a proven fast sailplan in PHRF, fast coastal passages & even in the Singlehanded TransAtlantic Race! while for cruising the boat has all the power you need from the mainsail & 100% jib. The ingenious bowsprit shoots out at the pull of a line for setting the asymmetrical spinnaker. Wide traveler, vang and halyard give infinite tuning power to the mainsail. 
*....*
The Quest 33 is faster than many boats 5 & 10 feet longer! This boat is a PHRF winner! The sailplan is highly refined and easy to use & adapt, and the fin-keel & rudder are the latest, thin, high-aspect foil designs. 
The design is based on the same principals as the Open Class 'round the world BOC racers & is unspoiled by slavish following of arcane 'racing' rules. These are called 'handicaps' for good reason! Yet a family cruising with ease will make very fast trips from port to port, & have the pleasure of gliding by bigger boats during a daysail. 

The Quest 33 provides sportboat-like performance in a stable, easy-to-sail boat with generous cruising space in the cockpit and interior. "

Rodger Martin Yacht Design

Holby Marine Company - Quest 33

Regards

Paulo

Edit: PS- It looks that NA really don't like fast boats:

*"After 25 years of being in business, Holby Marine Company has closed its doors for business. As a former leading edge composite boat manufacturer, the company is offering for sale the molds on the Pilot line of power boats and the Quest line of racing yachts. The sale will take place on May 4, 2010 at our former manufacturing location ..."*

Holby Marine Company - Leading composite boat manufacturer, yachts, sailboats, powerboats, skiffs, Quest 33, Yacht Manufacturers


----------



## PCP

*Elan 310*



blt2ski said:


> In this months "Sailing" Bob Perry does a review of the dehler 32 and Elan 310. I like the look of the E310 more than the D32. Potentially a nicer interior than an SF3200, but probably a bit slower, and no where near the quality of the Pogo. I've heard Elan is a lower end European boat, but, that does not always mean it is a bad boat either. ....Marty


The Elan is not a low end quality boat. They have two lines, a cruising and a performance one. The performance one (like on the Beneteau, regarding the "First line") has a better quality and it is more expensive. The Elan 31 is from the performance line.

The Performance boats have a better quality than Beneteau, Jeanneau and Hanse. Perhaps the same quality of the performance line of Dufours (better than the cruising line of Dufours) and a little bit under Dehler and Gran Soleil. I don't know why, but the value of used boats is not so good (probably because there are a lot of people that think like you) .

The 31 is a great boat (great designer). It has made quite an impression on the market (all the boat tests are very positive).

Look at this video:






And the next one, the Elan 35 looks even better

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

http://sail.elan-yachts.com/slike/plovila/e350/Elan_350_design_notes.pdf

Elan 350









Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

mitiempo said:


> Also Marty a smaller builder will have a higher unit cost than a larger volume builder even if the boats were identical. ....


Yes I agree. If the boat is produced in large numbers I believe that the difference can be almost 50%.

That's not only the best prices you can have on all the hardware needed (if you buy 400 winches instead of 10, you would have a large discount and the same applies for masts, hatches, windlasses and so on) but also the hours of labor that you can cut using industrial robots. But those are very expensive and to have them you need a large prodution facility.

The price of boats is not proportional to their quality. More expensive boats tend to have better quality, but not in proportion with prices.

That makes specially interesting medium boat manufacturers like Elan, Hanse, RM, Grand Soleil, that are growing and becoming bigger, modernising their production units and proposing boats that are different than the ones produced by Hunter, Bavaria and Beneteau (mainstream) at prices that are affordable, even if not comparable.

But even if those Brands are having success, not all of the medium good quality manufacturers have done it. Dehler, whose quality was recognized by everyone didn't make it. Probably its offer was not the right one and the boats competed too closely with mainstream producers, like the ones from First and Dufour(performance), that could sell similar products for less money.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Post 46 is about a great boat, a fast small oceangoing cruising boat: The RM 1050.

The boat is great, but the design of the superstructure was kind of old. Not particularly beauty or exciting.

Now, take a look at the new 1060. That's a beauty










Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

The only downside sailing wise for the 1050 and 1060 RM's is the main traveller that's smack in the middle of the cockpit. Any uncontrolled gybes and you have a dangerous situation for the crew in the cockpit.

Granted, any unplanned gybe can get nasty quick but on the RM (like quite a few other designs), you have a facefull of mainsail rigging if you're not careful. It would have been interesting to see them do a coachroof traveller or something farther back with a center console like the Pogo.

Upside is all controls are centered including the genois / foresail so no more sitting on the rail in the wet to tune.

Lombard has a very good track record as well and I imagine this should be a nice sailing boat.


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> The only downside sailing wise for the 1050 and 1060 RM's is the main traveller that's smack in the middle of the cockpit. Any uncontrolled gybes and you have a dangerous situation for the crew in the cockpit.
> .


The main traveller is not on the midle of the cockpit, it is behind the helm on the back of the boat, out of the way from the crew and at hand to the guy that is at the helm.










Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

PCP, you're right. My point is that downwind you're going to be seeing a lot of cordage sweeping across the cockpit. At the tiller you have the main sheet behind you which is tricky to manage even if it does bring you closer to the genoa winches for single handing. I'd have to see in real life how it works but I would have preferred a more recessed main traveler to creat a bit more breathing room from the tiller and crew on gybes.

Could be a good setup for double handing - someone behind the main traveler taking care of the main and the tiller / genoa/asym by the same person.


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1350*

Yes they have a new 13.50.

That's a really big and fast boat. The boat has won, recently, on the Italian boat magazine "Vela", a boat test to chose the best fast cruiser.

The boat was test sailed and compared with the: Vismara 44, Salona 44, Dufour 45, First 45, Elan 450, Grand Soleil 46 and Hanse 47.

As you know Fora Marin is a small manufacturer and the RM 1350 was compared to boats from big manufacturers (that give a lot more publicity to the magazine), some of them Italian, with new and very good boats (Vismara 44 and Grand Soleil 46). They really have to love the RM to have considered it the best

The basic price of the boat is around 280 000 euros, but for a well equipped boat you will spend 360 000 euros.

Are you sure that the 1200 is not big enough for you? The boat seems bigger than its size, has big tankage and a very good interior (That's my wife's preferred boat). That's the one I am interested in

RM YACHTS | RM 1350











Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1200*



nemier said:


> Absolutely Gorgeous!
> 12m more than enough boat for me, but not for the Admiral.
> Anyway, recent financial set backs mean they're all out of my financial reach anyway.


Nemier,

The RM 1200 is not a regular 40fter. I and my wife are looking for a 42, 44ft boat. At least it is what she wants. But the boat she likes most (the interior) is the RM 1200 and she will be happy with one.

If you put your wife inside one of these, I doubt she would not be satisfied. The notion of space is great, with a lot of outside views.

Take a look at the interior:

Visite 360°

RM YACHTS | RM 1200

And you know, with a smaller boat there are a lot of smaller bills

You can have one from 2003/4 for around 220 000 euros. I know that it is expensive for a 6 year old boat, but they have a very high resale value and there are more sailors looking for one than boats available . They normally come with a very high standard of equipment (ocean ready).

Come to the next Paris boat show, and we can have a beer.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*RM 1200, JPK 110, Opium 39*

I have been in France to test and see some sailboats.

I have sail tested the Opium 39, the RM1200 and I have been in the JPK shipyard, to see the JPK 110 and to have a talk with the builder (that is also a solo racer).

Wauquiez - Les Bateaux Lumière

RM YACHTS | RM 1200

JPK

I was impressed with the Opium 39 speed, not so much with the RM1200 (but my wife loved the boat) and very impressed with the JPK 110.

The boat is all infusion built and the builder really knows what he is doing. As I have said, as a solo sailor he is very experienced (won with one of its boats the Transquadra) and so, he really knows how to adapt the boat to solo sailing. He also will be glad to adapt the boat to my cruising needs. He had already done that sucessfully to some costumers that are very happy with their boats.

The boat is a 37ft and has the speed potential of regular 40ft cruiser-racer and costs 70000 euros less than the Opium 39. It is also a very safe boat and I believe, a comfortable boat, especially adapted to go upwind.

I am very interested by this one. I will test sail it, when there is a boat available and I will design some interior mods, to see if they are feasible. My wife wants more water (all the water works as ballast and can be moved from one side to the other) and I believe that there is space for more 180 L (90 on each side). No water (at least 300 L), no boat

For the next six moths I will have a lot of work ahead, so I will not post frequentlly, but if any of you wish to know more about any of these boats I will try to find time.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Opium 39*



blt2ski said:


> I'm thinking the Opium, at least then, if you are stuck in the middle of now where, no wind, you can smoke part of the boat for a buzz!:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


Marty,
Actually I find the Opium 39 a good looking boat.

















About the boat and its speed potential I think you would like to read this boat test:

http://www.wauquiez.com/presse/opium-39/pdf/YACHT-JANV-2010-FR.pdf

The Translation is really bad. This is the translation of a test by the Doitch magazine "Yacht". "Yacht" is in my opinion probably the best sailing boat magazine (and I know a lot of them) and they don't like particularly French boats. They normally like X-Yacht, Arcona, Luffe, Finngulf, Swan and the like. I believe that I never heard them say so well about a French boat.

Look at the wind speed and the boat speed. I have sailed the same boat (the one in the photo) with about the same wind and I can tell you that those numbers are for real. The boat sails not far away from wind speed.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Jpk 110*



blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> You are correct, that is a COOL looking boat. will check that out some more.
> 
> ....
> 
> marty


I agree, but this one is even cooler (JPK 110).


----------



## PCP

*Allures 45*

Hey Guys, take a look at this boat, it is a beautiful one. Look also at the very nice interior (amenagements):

Allures 45 - Allures Yachting

This is not an especially fast boat. It is a pure long range cruising boat, the kind the French prefer: An aluminum Centerboarder.

The Allures 44 was already, probably, the best midsized aluminum, center boarder. It was not ugly, but this one, the new 45, is a beauty&#8230;.. and should be a relatively fast cruising boat. Probably one of the fastest among this kind of boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## SeanRW

*Wow....*

Ok, I've been away from the forums for a while and just recently stumbled on this thread and am absolutely stunned at what's available in terms of these smaller yards.

Being in Canada, my knowledge of the European boats is fairly limited to the big names and to be honest, I hadn't even considered any of the "Racer/Cruisers" until I got a look at the POGO 12.50. WOW !! My jaw dropped !!

I curse you...I mean I was all happy day dreaming about a new HR 37 or 43 but now I've got POGO, Opium & JPK on my mind...Trying to figure out a way to sell the idea of a go-fast boat with a minimalist interior as being better for our sailing plans. Maybe I can highlight the lower maintenance costs & time due to less varnished wood. Quicker trips between destinations with cold beer. Less cooking cause we can't carry as much fresh produce.

Seriously though, this has opened up a whole new avenue of thought for me. Thanks for the introduction.

SRW


----------



## PCP

*Olea 44*

Glad to share.

If you have the money for an Halberg Rassy, perhaps you can dream with the Oléa 44 (it is not as expensive as a HS) and has better interiors compared with the Pogo. This boat made recently quite an impact in France and put a lot of guys dreaming with distant shores and really fast cruising. This one is quite an animal










It is a Pierre Rolland design and, like the Pogo 12.50 is a civilized class 40.

http://www.olea-composite.com/Download/Olea44%20Documentation.pdf

www.rolland-archi.com

Voiles et Voiliers : CroisiÃ¨re - Olea 44 (Olea Composite/Pierre Rolland)

Voiles et Voiliers : Chantier - Les nouveautés du Grand Pavois 2009 : Oléa 44, la grande croisière en biquille

Regards

paulo


----------



## SeanRW

PCP said:


> Glad to share.
> 
> If you have the money for an Halberg Rassy, perhaps you can dream with the Oléa 44 (it is not as expensive as a HS) and has better interiors compared with the Pogo.


Well, that's the thing. At first glance I thought that the POGO's interior was spartan and bare but then I had a second look at the photos on their website. After a while I grew fond of it. I imagine that the interior would be simple to maintain and clean (sponge & water). The white bulkheads and flooring look nice with the few wooden accents and the interior looks very functional (reminiscent of Japanese architecture). Plus in the heat of the tropics, I imagine that the white would have a "cooling" effect both physically and psychologically.

My one concern with the overall interior of any of the Racer/Cruisers is the apparent lack of insulation on the hull and the headliner on the cabin top. This would likely have an impact on regulating the interior temperature (hot or cold) and would not absorb any of the hull noise underway.

Now if only I could reassure myself that these types of vessels are indeed safe and comfortable enough for live aboard cruising. I've got numerous questions & concerns that have arisen when considering one of these.
1. Steerage at low speed because of the smaller rudder size
2. The obvious limitations on both water and fuel tankage
3. Load carrying capacity, especially in light of their light displacement
4. Provision for anchoring (a locker, spare anchor, windlass, can you carry chain ?)
5. Bimini, I need some kind of sun protection in the cockpit ?
6. Dodger, or do I live in foul weather gear on passage ?
7. Storage for a dinghy & outboard ?

Well, these are questions that I just posed to POGO in an email today and we'll see what they respond with. Maybe I'm being too North American and demanding too much. I mean I love the idea of these vessels, the speed and fun that they would be. I don't mind the "simple" accommodations and in fact almost welcome them. I like the lines and particularly like the idea of the swing keel which would be handy for beaching or at least getting closer to shore but the questions above have me wondering.

SRW


----------



## bjung

PCP,
The Nordships are beautiful boats!
Have you seen a Rustler 44 Rustler 44 on the European boat show circuit ? 
Bernd


----------



## PCP

*Rustler*



bjung said:


> PCP,
> ..Have you seen a Rustler 44 Rustler 44 on the European boat show circuit ?
> Bernd


No. I believe that you can only see them at Southampton (or London) boat show and I never went to that one.

But I know Rustler, the last of the traditional British boats. They are made with great care, hand made and very expensive. The quality is great, but I found the design a bit dated. They are great boats, seaworthy and reseonably fast, for medium displacement boats.

Rustler 44

I really love the Ruster 26. It's a classic. Look at the way they work. It is not surprising they are expensive. Take a look at the video:
Rustler 24

If you are interested in decksaloons, I find the new Southerlies (49, 46 and 42) and the new Regina (35 and 40) better designed. Never saw a Regina (for that you have to go to sweeden), but I saw several Southerlies and they are great sailing boats, very well made.

REGINA 40, Regina af Vindö Yachts (Sweden)
Southerly

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 10.50*



SeanRW said:


> Well, that's the thing. At first glance I thought that the POGO's interior was spartan and bare but then I had a second look at the photos on their website. After a while I grew fond of it. I imagine that the interior would be simple to maintain and clean (sponge & water). The white bulkheads and flooring look nice with the few wooden accents and the interior looks very functional (reminiscent of Japanese architecture). Plus in the heat of the tropics, I imagine that the white would have a "cooling" effect both physically and psychologically.
> 
> My one concern with the overall interior of any of the Racer/Cruisers is the apparent lack of insulation on the hull and the headliner on the cabin top. This would likely have an impact on regulating the interior temperature (hot or cold) and would not absorb any of the hull noise underway.
> 
> Now if only I could reassure myself that these types of vessels are indeed safe and comfortable enough for live aboard cruising. I've got numerous questions & concerns that have arisen when considering one of these.
> 1. Steerage at low speed because of the smaller rudder size
> 2. The obvious limitations on both water and fuel tankage
> 3. Load carrying capacity, especially in light of their light displacement
> 4. Provision for anchoring (a locker, spare anchor, windlass, can you carry chain ?)
> 5. Bimini, I need some kind of sun protection in the cockpit ?
> 6. Dodger, or do I live in foul weather gear on passage ?
> 7. Storage for a dinghy & outboard ?
> 
> Well, these are questions that I just posed to POGO in an email today and we'll see what they respond with. Maybe I'm being too North American and demanding too much. I mean I love the idea of these vessels, the speed and fun that they would be. I don't mind the "simple" accommodations and in fact almost welcome them. I like the lines and particularly like the idea of the swing keel which would be handy for beaching or at least getting closer to shore but the questions above have me wondering.
> 
> SRW


Sean, about the steerage at low speed, that would not be a problem. The boat has twin rudders and the area is equivalent to a big single ruder. You will not have the effect of the engine (water moved by propeller) on the rudder, but with most sail drives the effect is already very small.

About the water tankage, that is not a problem, the boat has big water ballast tanks and you can use that water for drinking.

About the fuel tanks, I believe you can have a bit more, but for sailing you don't need it. That boat sails at almost wind speed. Any wind will give you a decent speed.

Now, make no mistake, that is a Ferrari. Many would think that a Ferrari is a racing car and not the ideal car for touring. The boat comes from a line of Solo Ocean racers, so it is designed to cross oceans and even to circumnavigate. The question is: Do you want to travel on a Ferrari? I mean the way you would travel in a Ferrari?

The boat would not be as comfortable as a Volvo (not by far), but would provide you with an incredible and safe ride. The boat is big but is not made to carry much weight, so, as in a Ferrari, you would have to travel light. I would say that this boat implies a kind of lifestyle.

Me, I am used. I don't tour on a Ferrari (it wastes too much fuel ), but I chose to tour on a very small and fast roadster (and I tour a lot). The Pogo is in what concerns boats the equivalent to my touring car. It is what I want and what I like, as a car and as a boat.

For me, the ride is as important (or more) than the places, otherwise I would be travelling by airplane. But I am a funny guy , some would say I am mad.

Better test sail that boat, even charter one for a while, to be sure. On this thread there is one Guy that is thinking in buying a Pogo 10.5. Perhaps you can join forces for a test sail. If you do that, tell me, I will be also interested.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Found out this morning, the 409 is being made in Marion South Carolina at the Beneteau US Eastcoast plant, and will be at the Sept Annapolis show for the fall BOTY shows. Jeanneau has had some 33/36 and 39's built back there, and are showing up price wise, on par with the next sized smaller built in France. a savings of about 15K US$ on shipping across the pond. A smart move on GB to do this, keep workers at that plant working too! 

Have not heard or seen news about other sizes in the line, but looks like a small shift back to more sporty faster boats is in order. Good news for those that like the Jeanneau line.

Marty


----------



## SeanRW

Paulo,

I agree that the POGO; or any of the other racers mentioned; would be a different approach to sailing and cruising. The ride itself would definitely fall into the Ferrari category. Fast, bumpy, exhilarating and I suspect very wet as opposed to the more sedate heavier displacement vessels we're more familiar with. And yes, like you, I think I am somewhat mad for even considering something like a POGO as a possible alternative to a more traditional cruising vessel. Obviously there would be compromises to endure but I'm beginning to think that they may be worth it. Plus, the prices advertised make them all the more attractive.


----------



## PCP

*Luffe 43Ds*

I have posted about this boat on another thread, but the truth is that I think that he deserves to be also on this one, as an interesting boat










This is a Luffe 43Ds and was for severall years my dream boat. It is not anymore becausen I refuse to have dreams that cannot be true, one day.

Before the crisis I thought that eventually I could have the means to buy one, so I have visited the shipyard, talked with the owner. They were building one, but they had not one available for test sailing, so I test sailed another luffe (the boat sailed wonderfully).

















I liked everything, the boat, the shipyard, Oluf Jørgensen and the love of perfection that they put in all their work.

I don't even think that the boat is expensive, if we compare it with for instance X-Yachts. And I say X yachts, because they are both Danish boats( the Luffe has a local nick name: X-eater ) .

The Luffe are very fast cruiser racers, the owner of the shipyard is a racer that 30 years ago made its own racing boat (a 37) . He made Wood Dragons at that time. The boat was so good that he started to build cruiser racers, first for friends then for a small market. He still races and have its own Luffe

Here you can see Oluf Jorgensen racing one of its boats on a major Nordic race (how many owners and designers of sailboats are active racers, or sailors?)



The 43Ds was borne by the desire that an old client (and an old sailor) had to travel extensively. This old racer wanted to travel, but have no desire to sail a slow or boring boat and asked Oluf Jorgensen to adapt a 43 cruiser-racer for extensive bluewater cruising, easy anf fast sailing and the result was that boat.



The 43Ds can be equipped with a self-taking front sail and, as the one on the picture and a top class Danish furler boom. The boat has at least an electric winch (for the furler boom). The boat is light, but strong, with an interior steel frame that support and distribute the rig and keel loads.



Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Tiller / Wheel*



nemier said:


> Gents,
> twin wheel, single wheel, or tiller...what does your next boat need?
> I love a tiller on a largish boat (37' - 44')
> I saw a few last season in the San Juan's, most likely custom built composite jobbies, but real easy on the eye...


The wheel has substituted the tiller on relatively small and light boats for comercial reasons. Consumers associate a wheel with a big boat and they want to have a boat that looks like a big boat

The tiller is simpler, cheaper, more direct and give you a better boat feeling.

Many of the boats on this thread, specially the sporty ones made by small shipyards, come originally with a tiller, and the wheel comes as an (expensive) option. They ended up selling more boats with a wheel than with a rudder.

For example, the Luffe 43, The Opium 39, the JPK and even the fast cruiser RM1200, all come originally with a tiller. The wheel is an option.

On the Opium 39, the running rigging makes not much sense (position of the winches) if you have a wheel. They are too much forward to be reached from the wheel (and this boat is originally designed as a solo boat). But that position makes sense with a tiller, cause the steering position is a lot more forward than the one on the wheel.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

My preference is a tiller. If my next vessel is sold with a wheel, I'll consider the expense of converting to a tiller, such is the strength of my desire for a tiller. However, the twin wheels are a different breed altogether, and this appeals to me. Therefore my personal preference is:
1. tiller
2. twin wheel
3. single wheel, (& as Cesar Milan says)...in that order.
(everybody) What's Your personal preference)?


----------



## tdw

*Copy of Post from $100,000 Circumnavigator.*



tdw said:


> Paulo...sorry about the spelling....payback for calling me a cat.......I was actually going to ask you how come a Portuguese ended up with an Italian name......whoops.....Paulo it is.
> 
> Man that Luffe is one sexy beast. It really is a DS41, lengthened, updated and with what looks like absolutely awesome build quality. Nice to see the top loading (as well as front) refrigeration. American DS41s usually have a top loader but not the European. Galley layout on the Luffe is revised, they have done away with that silly controller at the chart table and ditched the odd anchor stowage. All for the good. Not sure about that stool at the bottom of the companionway but that is pretty simple to resolve and a very minor issue.
> 
> Show me where to sign.
> 
> Ah if only.
> 
> I have no idea what the Luffe would be worth but I suspect more than I am. There are none available used on Yachtworld.
> 
> I reckon I would still be happy with a Dehler but yes the Luffe does go one better and on the basis of the web site it has gone straight to number one on the Wombat list of desirable holes in the water.
> 
> Thanks for the links....I think....then again maybe I was better off when I didn't know this thing existed.....
> 
> <o>
> </o>


This was my reply to Paulo re the Luffe 43.

I'm with Paulo on this one....I'd love this baby to be my dream angel but reality is I am never going to be able to afford even a used one. For that reason I am staying faithful to my smaller less expensive piece of fluff...the Dehler DS41. Older, slower, smaller but at least she comes close to my budget.


----------



## tdw

nemier said:


> My preference is a tiller. If my next vessel is sold with a wheel, I'll consider the expense of converting to a tiller, such is the strength of my desire for a tiller. However, the twin wheels are a different breed altogether, and this appeals to me. Therefore my personal preference is:
> 1. tiller
> 2. twin wheel
> 3. single wheel, (& as Cesar Milan says)...in that order.
> (everybody) What's Your personal preference)?


I used to be a single wheeler but now not overly concerned which way I go. I've sailed the VDS34 in both tiller and wheel variations and if I had my choice there, I'd go tiller (and also fractional rather than masthead rig, which is another discussion altogether). However the choice to go tiller would be more to do with freeing up space in the quarter berth which on the Womboat is cluttered up with steering gear.

Twin wheels are cool. The only boat with twins I've ever sailed was Giulietta. Certainly preferable to one big wheel I reckon.

As an aside.....Sailing on Giulietta was a lot of fun and the fastest keel boat I've ever sailed on but I'd not choose such a design as my long term cruiser. Paulo spoke about driving a Ferrari v a Volvo....as long as the Volvo is a new one and not like the old 245 I had once , yes I agree..... Then again even the 245 was pretty good on the open road, just a bit sluggish around town. To be frank crossing oceans at 15 plus knots does not have all that much appeal if only because should you hit something at that speed something is going to get very badly damaged. As a day sailor maybe its a different story.

ps (edit)....Absurdly expensive even when compared to the Luffe but i've always felt these things were pretty cool.....

2008 K&M Yachtbuilders Bestewind Bestewind 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com










(thats big sister btw...Bestevaer 53)

and can anyone identify this ?


----------



## PCP

*Tiller / Wheel*



nemier said:


> My preference is a tiller. If my next vessel is sold with a wheel, I'll consider the expense of converting to a tiller, such is the strength of my desire for a tiller. However, the twin wheels are a different breed altogether, and this appeals to me. Therefore my personal preference is:
> 1. tiller
> 2. twin wheel
> 3. single wheel, (& as Cesar Milan says)...in that order.
> (everybody) What's Your personal preference)?


Twin wheels from a mechanical point of view are more complicated than a single wheel. More cables, more drag, less sensitivity. What I want is twin rudders (on a large transom boat), not twin wheels. I want them by lots of reasons that have to do with efficiency and safety, but that is another story.

Regarding the wheel versus tiller. Tiller wins on simplicity, price and sensability. The wheel provides you with something you can hold on bad weather and gives you some support when the boat is going up and down on big waves. The choice, as Tdw as pointed out as to do also with the free space on the cockpit and with the rigging. A tiller permits you to reach farther, but takes away free space on the cockpit.

The reason that lead to twin wheels as to do with the transom increase in size. Modern boats have broader transom and beyond a certain width you can not sit on the side and reach the wheel, even if it is a big one (not to mention the ability to reach the winch with a hand on the wheel).

The size that justifies two wheels depends on the transom width, but it is around 40ft.

On boats with relatively narrow beams and transom (for modern design) you can still have one wheel (First 40, Elan 410) but on boats with large transom that would be impossible (Pogo 12.50, Opium 39).

Twin wheels have became a "fashion" and lots of boats that don't need twin wheels (smaller boats) now offer them as standard items (for comercial purposes). It is true that in what concerns access to the cockpit, a twin whell offers advantages, but that as nothing to do with efficiency and it is only understandable in an oriented cruising boat, not in a performance one.

Besides the efficiency problem you will have another problem with the localization of boat's instruments. Some brands just double everything, from the compass to the wind, speed and depth instruments. More expense and more complication.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Zeydon 60*



tdw said:


> and can anyone identify this ?


That's a Zeydon 60.

Zeydon

With that price tag there is boats that I like more.
Dreaming has no price , so when I have time I will post about them.

Take a look at this one. It will be probably affordable for a guy that has the money for a 50ft. It is a new "luxury" line by Benetau. The hull seems modern and the boat will be faster than the Oceanis. The interior is European "chick". It is well designed, but I don't like it. I like boat's interiors to look like boat's interiors, not like some small luxury apartment

Take a look at the video:

http://sense.beneteau.com/defaultProduit.aspx

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Gerard Dykstra, K&M and Bestevaer*



tdw said:


> ..
> ps (edit)....Absurdly expensive even when compared to the Luffe but i've always felt these things were pretty cool.....
> 
> 2008 K&M Yachtbuilders Bestewind Bestewind 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (thats big sister btw...Bestevaer 53)


Those are Gerard Dykstra designs. I love it. You know, the Bestevaer 53 looks old beautiful , expensive, heavy with a long keel and slow but that's a false image.

The only thing that remains true from that image is that it is beautiful and expensive . But It is also fast, light (aluminum) and has a modern underbody with a finn keel and a bulb.

From its designs I prefer the classical ones, with a proper boat interior, not some fancy luxury apartment imitation.

Look at this 50ft. I bet I can sail it solo and if you waste a lot of money in a boat, better travel with style, and style is a thing that this one has.

K&M Yachtbuildershttp://www.kmy.nl/aluminium-sailing-yachts.php?page=km_jachten_bestevaer_3

And if I was really rich and have a a big family that could crew the boat, then it will be this one. Look at the interior: That's what an interior of a boat should look like

http://www.kmy.nl/aluminium-sailing-yachts.php?page=km_jachten_bestevaer_11

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350*

Nice scenary.

Yes, but you work with those veicules. I work on my computer.

Boat talk:

The new Elan 350 (post 64) is on the water. It seems as nice as in the computer drawings.

Take a look at the Elan site , some articles and to a boring movie (No wind, the guy speaks Croatian, but we can have a good look at the boat ant it looks very interesting):

My Sailing: Elan 350 - Out in Front in Design, Performance and WOW Factor!

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

Elan 350

http://www.zlregata.com/e350_Portugues.ppt

Elan 350 - test | Sailtube

Sail-World.com : New Elan 350 - Out in front in design, performance and pure Wow!

Elan 350 | bilder | BLUR



























Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 12.50, Opium 39, Dufour 40e - Match*

Marty, what do you think of the Elan 35?

Guys, on this thread we talked about the Pogo 12.50 and about the Opium 39. Some months ago I had read a boat test, an interesting compairison between the Opium 39, the Pogo 40 cruising (the model that is going to be upgraded as Pogo 12.50) and the new Dufour 40e. I found out that they had put the movie on internet.

Tell me : are not this all beautiful sailing Boats?






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350*



blt2ski said:


> paulo,
> 
> IF I could afford the thing, and if the design specs allowed fully sailed single double handed sailing like Jeanneau's SF3200, or the pogo, frankly, probably the best option overall. Big enough to keep spouse happy, enough performance for myself. There is a Stealer.......OOOOPS..........Dealer in town. The E310 would also work, Bob Perry did a review in Sailing about a month ago, maybe two. Just got an August issue the other day, can not remember if it was in the July or June. July is ringing a bell.
> You photos are the first I Have seen of the 350 interior and exterior. *Interior might be a little plain for spouse*, but some window treatments, showier seat cushions, different wall colour etc could give this part a kick in the pants.
> 
> Marty


Marty, <O</O
I am quite sure your wife will love the interior. This is among the fast boats the one that has a more functional interior, with lots of storage. It is also very agreeable. See what I post about it below.
<O</O
If you want a full and very good test on the 31, PM me and send me your email.

Regards

Paulo<O</O




tdw said:


> butting in....I like the Elan 35. ... the interior is somewhat bland and I do not like the beige finish. Warm it up a bit and yeah, OK.





tdw said:


> <O</O
> The big question I have re the Elan is why don't they make the windows in the hull bigger ? Now I know this is the DS lover speaking but I do not understand why they make the things so small. It cannot be strength. I don't believe for one minute that in this day and age glass cannot be every bit as strong as the other hull material. Is it simply the fact that just as in the airline world the consumers are uncomfortable with large openings ?
> <O</O
> &#8230;..Having another look at the Elan...is that interior finish beigy paint or is it an almost pinky beige veneer ? Whatever it is I don't like it one bit.
> <O</O
> ... This obsession with light coloured interiors confuses me. Then again maybe I am a troll at heart.<O</O
> ....


<O</O
That photo is a snapshot from the interior of a prototype. It is not by hazard that the guys from Elan did not post any interior photo on its site. It is probably because they consider that what they have is not up to their standards.
<O</O
I agree with the you that this fashion to use light colored Oak on the interior is appalling. What I found odd is that there are certainly a lot of people that like it , otherwise it would not be a"fashion". The interior is not painted, it is all wood.
<O</O
Actually I find the Elans interiors to be the most agreeable of all performance boats (excluding the very expensive ones). The level of finish is good, just a bit under Dehler, but at the same level (perhaps better) than all the others, and the design is the best. Of course, I would not have said that if I was considering that photo. The light is very bad, the boat shows that it is a prototype, the color of the wood and fabric of seats is all wrong.
<O</O
On the last years I have been several times inside Elan (380, 410, 450), as well as inside most of other similar sized cruiser racers and that is where I base my opinion.

The interior lighting is also good. If you look at the boat profile you will see that the lateral "window" is big and there are big hatches on the roof. Certainly they have more light than a Dufour a First or a Dehler. Again, the photo is misleading.<O</O

Take a look at the interior of the old 34. You can see that it is cozy and that the wood feels right. That is not the same wood (there are several wood interior options).
<O</O
ELAN Marine
<O</O
Try to look again at that interior photo (the one I have posted) and you can see that the interior design (taking away the bad finish, light and wrong colors) is actually a lot better than on the 34, with a small view to the scenery.
<O</O
That interior seems to be midway between the one from the 340 and the one from the 380. 
<O</O
Take a look at the one from the 380 (again, wrong option of wood, in my opinion) but you can see that the design is ok, with lots of storage and the finish is good.
<O</O




<O</O
Regards

<O</O
Paulo<O</O


----------



## SeanRW

ps (edit)....Absurdly expensive even when compared to the Luffe but i've always felt these things were pretty cool.....

2008 K&M Yachtbuilders Bestewind Bestewind 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com










(thats big sister btw...Bestevaer 53)

__________________________________

have a look at this puppy. If only the lotto would cooperate I'd be a happy camper 

http://www.yachts.nl/#/sail

and look for the Dykstra (another Bestaever 20.04M)

(wiping the drool off the keyboard)


----------



## PCP

*Olivier Van Meer - Puffin and Zaca.*

Since we are talking about classic yachts and Dutch naval architects, it is more than fair to talk about *Olivier Van Meer *and about its series, *Puffin* and *Zaca*.

I believe the ones that like classic boats are going to love it (I like them a lot ). My first boat was a true classic (more than 50 years old) .









Take a good look at theses sites, they are full of beautiful boats:

Olivier F. van Meer - Sail

Zeiljachten

Architecten - Puffin & Little Zaca Yachts (uk)

PuffinsUSA.com

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350*



bb74 said:


> hate the dual wheel system on the 35. Absolutely no reasonable need for this on that size boat and it kills the cockpit space once you arrive at destination.
> 
> My opinion, but the dual wheel tillers are an ego trip on smaller boats.
> 
> Otherwise it's a nice boat, well built and good performance.


I would also have preferred a single wheel (by the reasons I give on post 119) and maybe that comes as an option but I do not understand what you mean when you say that "it kills the cockpit space once you arrive at destination".

If that boat had not two wheels it would have to have a big wheel and that would make the passage between the front of the cockpit and the back more difficult. I will post an Elan 38 photo to explain what I mean:









Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> I would also have preferred a single wheel (by the reasons I give on post 119) and maybe that comes as an option but I do not understand what you mean when you say that "it kills the cockpit space once you arrive at destination".


Paulo, 
My guess is that BB74 is referring to the fact that the cockpit seats stop ahead of the wheels. I confess that anything under 2m in length is not good for me either...I'm a stretch out and have a sleep kind of guy....I'm a bit under 2m tall myself.

Yes the one huge wheel means the same end result but without the passage between the two wheels. Personally I'd rather have the cockpit seats come all the way aft and put up with a smaller wheel though I'm sure that would apall you red blooded racers.

As for the Puffin....drool. I remember there was one for sale on Yachtworld a year or so back. I had the images on my desktop for quite some time. Absolutely gorgeous thing and at 42' a more acceptable size than the Bestevaer but USD$600.000...oh dear.


----------



## PCP

*Noordkaper 40*

Don't be greedy. I am sure a 40ft is enough for you, like this one:










This one is not so expensive  

2004 Noordkaper 40 gebr van Enkhuizen - Boats.com

At least for a rich guy . Seriously, this is not a Puffin, it looks very similar but the hull is very different. This one is even more traditional, a direct descendent of the old North Sea fishing boats. They are similar because they have the same origins but the Noordkaper maintains much of the original hull form.

These beauties are designed by another Dutch Naval Architect, Martin Bekebrede.

2004 Noordkaper 40 gebr van Enkhuizen - Boats.com

KoopmansKasko

The interiors look even better than the ones from Puffin:

Noordkaper 40 - 43 - 46 - 52 - 56 - 60

At least a charter place on one of this babies seems not too expensive...and in very nice places.
Take a look at this one:

Anne-Margaretha Charters Zee Zeilen - The Ship

Anne-Margaretha Charters Zee Zeilen - Welkom op de site van de Anne-Margaretha

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*On design - different types of boats*

Let's get back to performance boats, but first let me make a clarification:
<O</O
On this thread there are light performance boats, medium displacement boats like the Sirius or the Nordship and heavy boats, like the Puffin or the NoordKaper. Do I really like all these sailboats?: Yes I do . Do they all sail well? Yes, accordingly to what they were designed to do.<O</O

Let's start with the Noordkaper. This one is made for voyaging and I don't mean small trips, but for living aboard and circumnavigate. That means trade winds on the right season. Trade winds means generally 15 to 25k blowing from the right place. On this conditions a 42 Noordkapper probably will go along nicely between 6,5 and 8,5k with style and comfort. 

Try to sail that boat with 10k wind and it will go very slowly. Try to go against the wind and probably you will find that the boat will not do better than 50 or 55º. That's why it has a big diesel tank and a big engine. If you don't plan to make big voyages, this is not the boat for you, unless you chose to live in the boat and accept that on most occasions you will have to motor or motorsail to go anywhere.
<O</O
Let's go to the other extreme, performance cruising boats. Those that are normally called cruiser-racers and are dual purpose boats: You can club race with the friends and you can cruise. I am only addressing here the cruising potential. 
<O</O
Let's compare the Noordkapper with a 45ft, for example the First 45.
<O</O
http://www.beneteau.com/UserFile/Image/Panoramiques_Flash/dec07/beneteau-first-45.html
<O</O
http://www.beneteau.com/fr/voile/produit.aspx?GAM_CODE=6&PRO_CODE=300<O</O
<O</O
Of course, not minding the price (the Noordkapper would cost more than twice), the First could be used to voyage extensively and to cross oceans, at a speed far superior to the Noordkapper (trade winds between 9 and 14k) but of course you hope not to hit a whale or anything of considerable size with the First. The boat would probably survive, but not the rudder (the risk is small, but it can happen). 
<O</O
The kind of movement would be also different (and I am not discussing it where), but I would say that on the Nordkapper the movement would be more attenuated. The load that the First can carry is also very different. It is true that the First does not need to have a huge engine or big diesel tanks because it can sail in many sailing conditions where the Noordkapper would have to use the engine, but in what concerns water, on the First you have to be careful while on the Noordkapper you don't even think about that ( on the First if you do that kind of travel, you would end up mounting a watermaker).

On the Noordkapper you can carry all your stuff, on the First you travel light (and fast).
<O</O
In what concerns trade winds and grand touring the advantages and disadvantages are mixed, but in what concerns local sailing and coastal and semi-coastal cruising all advantages are on the First side (except if you chose to live in the boat and motor almost everywhere).

While you are slowly motoring the Noordkaper, the First can make 8 K with 10 K wind and probably 6K with 7K wind. With the First you will be sailing most of the time, even against the wind, with the Noordkaper you will be motoring most of the time.
<O</O
To choose one or other type of boat it is up to your sailing program and with the type of use you are going to give to the boat. 
<O</O
The medium displacement boats that I have posted here are intermediate situations, with a special attention to the new range of Nordships, that are no racing boats, but are fast and good sailing boats, for the kind of program they were built for. You would choose one of these or a performance boat according with your sailing tastes (sportive and fast or cool and slower) and your need for interior comfort.
<O</O
That's not exactly like that , because the 40 Nordship would cost twice the price of the performance boats I have posted on this thread. The option would be a RM that would cost about the price of a performance boat, it is faster than most cruisers and is a boat designed for voyaging. That's the one of the French choices as the voyage boat, and they have a lot from to choose (the other one would be a more expensive aluminum centerboard).
<O</O
I guess the affordable option would be a mainstream boat, a Bavaria, a Jeanneau a Benetau, a Dufour or a Hanse. But even among these ones there are differences with the Dufour and Hanse being more performance oriented (the Bavaria seems to be moving also on that direction).
<O</O
Regards
<O</O
Paulo<O</O


----------



## PCP

*Salona 42*

The new Salona 41: They are looking for a dealer in the States and I believe it will not take a long time. That's one of the shipyards that has been growing in Europe. They sell high quality boats at a fair price. Their new 44 has been making quite an impression, but the boat that I liked most is the 42, the boat that this one is going to substitute.

The boats are very similar even in what regards the interior. This is the one from the 41:










I believe the major diference are de two wheels intead of one and as that system permits to save some space on the back of the boat, this one is a ft shorter. The boat has the same LWL, the same ballast but it is 150kg lighter, it is 2 cm wider and it has more 9 m2 of sail (111 m2).

Another very important diference is the price. This one costs less money.

I think (and hope) that this one is going to be as beautifull as the 42. The 42 looks as beautiful and modern as in the day it was launched. Take a look:


----------



## PCP

*Cigale 16*

New Cigale 16: This is a gorgeous boat, and don't you know that they have found that chines, in the right place, improves the boat performance? Today ocean racers and fast ocean boats have chines. 

Yes it is true, it is very influenced by the current crop of ocean racers, particularly, solo racers and it makes sense. This boat is designed to be solo sailed and has all the improvements that come for that kind of races, namely the broad stern to improve downwind stability: That permits you to leave it safely on autopilot, while surfing at two figure digits.

Regarding the interior, this boat as the same kind of set up of its predecessor, so I can tell you that it will be a very comfortable interior. It is no deck sallon, but it has a very big salon with view to the exterior (6 fixed portholes) two on each side and two on the back of the boat. It has also a dinghy "garage" and that is quite useful.

































Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

:laugher:laugher:laugher

Paulo I didn't intend 'strange looking thing' to be an insult. I actually like 'strange looking things but you get my point...that great big "does my arse look big in this" stern but only one wheel.

I still cannot place it. The idea of the big fold down dinghy dock reminds me of Hanse but its not one of theirs.

Speaking of which I have to admit a liking for Hanse. There is an older model 50 odd footer on our marina and I am quite taken with the thing. The H430 is pretty impressive. Only thing I don't really like about Hanse is the lack of a stand alone chart table. I'd rather have that and a full length settee to port than two large heads. Call me old fashioned, if you will...

Hanse Yachts

and the 630 is simply awesome.

Hanse Yachts

ps - don't talk to me about chines.....been there, done that, whats more still wearing the t-shirt.....(vds34, multi chine steel.....hate to think how slow she'd be if the chines make her faster..)


----------



## tdw

Thought I had posted this earlier but it appears to have gone into the void.

Regarding the Bestevaer v Puffin v Noordkapper.

To my mind the Noordkapper goes to far towards the traditional. Very nice and all that but but but....while the Puffin I like very much although I'm not a great fan of bowsprits....that anchor position is kind of weird as well but nonetheless the Puffin comes very close indeed.

However , if only they made it....a Puffin sized Bestevaer would be my ideal. The Bestewind 50 is such a wonderful amalgam of the modern and traditional, for me Dykstra is a very clever man indeed. Unlike Puffin and/or Noordkapper the Bestevaer/Bestewind is undeniably a modern design. I simply don't need or want 50'. But if I must...


----------



## PCP

Very beautiful boat, thanks for sharing.

DYkstra is one of world's best Architects. His boats are modern even if they look classic. He also does refit of old and beautiful sailing boats, but that is another story. By modern I mean they are light, good and fast sailing boats with a modern underbody. I would not mind to own the one you have posted even if I would prefer a faster boat, but I like the classic touch of his designs. My work as an architecht as a lot to do with what Dykstra do, but applied to houses.

Regarding the Hanse it is another story. I have mixed feelings. I like some of the designs (the 430 even if I have doubts regarding the stability) and some of the bigger boats, but I truly hate the interiors, especially the ones from the bigger boats (they mimic small apartments and the quality is not even that good). I am talking only about design, because as sailboats the Hanse are remarcably good sailing boats.


Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Paulo, I tend to agree with you regarding the interiors. Hey, even the work we do with architects on some modern places does not work for me. 

Anyway, I've thought about it long and hard. I'll accept the Bestewind, 50' or not.

Actually I wonder what is happening there. The Bestewind web site is down and has been for some time now. 

As for your mystery boat, there is something about her that is nagging away at the back of mind. Maybe another boat by the same designer, I don't know.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo, I tend to agree with you regarding the interiors. Hey, even the work we do with architects on some modern places does not work for me.
> 
> ...


I have been inside those boats and believe me, the real thing is a lot worse than in the photos. For instance you have nice looking "sofas" (armchairs) till you try to seat, just to find out they are too small and that you cannot fit in (I am also a big guy ) and the quality and kind of furniture leaves much to be desired.

True, they are not expensive boats and I have to admit that the furniture is practical, especially on the smaller boats, with lots of storage space. It is more a question of taste.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Guillaume de Verdier*



tdw said:


> ps - don't talk to me about chines.....been there, done that, whats more still wearing the t-shirt.....(vds34, multi chine steel.....hate to think how slow she'd be if the chines make her faster..)


I would have said the same thing some years back. Then it come Guillaume de Verdier, a very young architect (a kid really ) designed a revolutionary class 40 made of wood and with chines. He said the chines would help the boat to be faster.

I (and I am sure a lot of guys) thought he was crazy and that the chines were there because it was the less expensive way to build that boat.

We were wrong, the boat was a winner, then he made Safran, the fastest of the actual Open 60 generation (excluding the new boats that are being launched), again a boat with chines. Now all designers are putting chines on their boats, and not only on the Open 60 and class 40, but also on the new Volvo 70.

The Open 60 lead again the way in hull design, not only in what regards the use of chines, but in what regards the type of transom. Have a good look at the new generation Volvo 70. All of them also have broad transom and that as nothing to do with the boat being wide or not. It was to do with the way the transom is laid .

guillaume verdier - architecture navale - Accueil


----------



## PCP

*Cigale 16*



PCP said:


> Yes it is true, it is very influenced by the current crop of ocean racers, particularly, solo racers and it makes sense. This boat is designed to be solo sailed and has all the improvements that come for that kind of races, namely the broad stern to improve downwind stability: That permits you to leave it safely on autopilot, while surfing at two figure digits.
> 
> Regarding the interior, this boat as the same kind of set up of its predecessor, so I can tell you that it will be a very comfortable interior. It is no deck sallon, but it has a very big salon with view to the exterior (6 fixed portholes) two on each side and two on the back of the boat. It has also a dinghy "garage" and that is quite useful.


See what I mean, about the interior and hull design.


----------



## PCP

*Cigale 14*

The designer is Marc Lombard, the same designer of the Opium 39, from all the RM line, from the Jeanneau 39, 42, 36, 33 and 30 , the Figaro Benetau 2 and a lot of racing boats, from Open 60's to big racing cats.

Marc Lombard

The one I have being posting about is the new Cigale 16. The Original Cigale is a Finot design. This remake, that follow the same principles is from Lombard.

The boat is made by Alubat, that is also the shipyard that makes the OVNI. It is an aluminum boat, very light for its size and with water ballast.

Cigale 14 < Gamme Cigale < Les Gammes

this is an easy 9k boat. 10k of wind will be enough, and of course, with the trade winds it will be an easy two digits speed boat .

Have some pictures and a movie (from a Cigale 14): Clik on VIDEO

Seilsamvirket.net



























And there is a thread on Sailnet about the Cigale 14:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62711-cigale-14-circumnavigation.html

A member that has one had said about it:



WickedRob said:


> Cigale's are a Awesome boat. I have a Cigale 16 and love it.
> 
> The boat is easy to single hand or sail with short crew. My wife and I sail it by ourselves most of the time. The Aft solon is amazing, to sit at the table and be able to see out 270 degrees is such a joy. The boat handles better and easier than most fo the 40 foot boats that I have sailed. Nice light feel to the wheel in all conditions yet very responsive.
> 
> The designer Finot designed the 16 and then scaled the design for the 14. I have sailed both the 14 and the 16 for extended trips. The 16 has a mid travler vs the 14's aft travler. I find the Mid travler to be easier to handle than the 13 foot aft travler.
> 
> The boat sails very well to windward. On the way up to New England we beat for several days and found the boat to be extramly stable and tracked steady. We stowed the anchors and the dingy in the chain locker to add a little wieght to the bow. In 20 knots of wind and 35 degrees to the wind we were going along at 13 to 14 knots with out the ballast tanks full.
> 
> If you can get one of these you will not be disapointed.


Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Ha....there you go. I'd checked out Grand Soleil Marty and it didn't work if only cos they have an almost brand new 58'er I think it was.

I had a look at the North Sea Marine site last evening but only got as far as the Ovni and Alubat ranges..hadn't looked at Cigale. I'm afraid beer, food and wine got in the way of further investigation. Oh well there you go.

Have to say that the Cigale 14 looks the goods. Still a bit big at 48' but ticks an awful lot of boxes. That aft great cabin arrangement is fabulous and I love the look of her even if it is a 'strange looking thing'... It's quite difficult to choose. For me I adore the rugged good looks of the Bestevaer, the Luffe is just so pretty while the Cigale cutting edge and incredibly intelligent.

I do find the 'Chine Story' so very interesting. Boats like our VDS34 were of course built that way to cut down on costs and I doubt very much indeed that the chines would improve performance at all. Nonetheless I do like the look. This is a fav pic of mine, showing Leopard motoring up Sydney Harbour. She is canting her keel to induce heel so that she can fit under the Sydney Harbour Bridge. It was fun to watch.


----------



## tdw

Common as muck these things and cheap as chips. 

Three of 'em for sale at the moment and I reckon I could pick one up for AUD$380.000.

2003 Alubat CIGALE 14 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -

2004 Alubat CIGALE 14 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -

2005 Alubat CIGALE 14 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -


----------



## PCP

*On design - chines*



tdw said:


> I do find the 'Chine Story' so very interesting. Boats like our VDS34 were of course built that way to cut down on costs and I doubt very much indeed that the chines would improve performance at all. Nonetheless I do like the look. This is a fav pic of mine, showing Leopard motoring up Sydney Harbour. She is canting her keel to induce heel so that she can fit under the Sydney Harbour Bridge. It was fun to watch.


I am quite sure you are wrong about chines not improving performance. Not that I techinaclly understand much of the matter, but the guys that understand are all using them to improve performance .

Even Leopard has a chine even if it is only one. I believe that the chine is used to create a groove for being easier the boat to sail on its optimal heeling angle. Less work for the wheelsman and better overall efficiency, because the boat is sailing more time on its optimum heeling position.

Take again a look at the new Groupama 70 ( the French boat for the next Volvo, a K design, absolutely cutting edge design) take a look at the big chine and now take a look at the small photo. See, the boat is all over the chine.









Take a look at this movie from the first test with that boat. You can see that the boat, even with very weak wind is sitting on the chine.

Voiles et Voiliers : Course rÃ©gate - Video voile Première Manche prometteuse à bord de Groupama 70

Beautiful boat isn't it? My favorite for the next Volvo Race. That boat with Franck Cammas as skipper will be one of the favorites.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Santa Cruz 43*



SeanRW said:


> Quite the wide range of boats being showcased here. I wonder if Paulo is trying to get a job as the EU's "Boating Ambassador"  ...


I have nothing against American boats. I like boats and I don't care where they are made. The problem is that it is very difficult to find American production boats that are not mainstream ( that are made by small shipyards) and that are interesting. For interesting I mean a boat designed this century and modern. It can look classic but has to be modern in the hull shape and sailing performance. I can not find them, but you guys know probably better your production, so, just post about them. I will apreciate

I know at least one . It is coming soon at the market and it is a gorgeous boat. The only problem is the price , otherwise I would be glad to have one of those. I am talking about the new Santa Cruz 43. They say about their boat:

*"Fast is fun!! *And it's the way the SC 43 uses that speed.* Fast is stable-with more sail power transferred to accelerating forward instead of healing. Fast is more comfortable-helping the boat move through the water with a smoother motion.* Fast is safer-getting back to the marina or into the anchorage more quickly if the weather turns. Fast is more distance in less time! Get to that favorite anchorage before the crowd. ..Fast is Fun again with the Santa Cruz 43."<O</O

Santa Cruz Yachts - Velocity Matters

Kernan Yacht Design - On The Boards

http://www.boatwizardwebsolutions.co.uk/keyyachting.com/scdocs/SC43-Brochure.pdf

Sail-World.com : Australians build American icon Santa Cruz Yachts

http://www.santacruzyachts.com/images/sc43/SC43Brochure.pdf


























Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

> Originally Posted by *tdw*
> 
> I do find the 'Chine Story' so very interesting. Boats like our VDS34 were of course built that way to cut down on costs and I doubt very much indeed that the chines would improve performance at all. Nonetheless I do like the look. This is a fav pic of mine, showing Leopard motoring up Sydney Harbour. She is canting her keel to induce heel so that she can fit under the Sydney Harbour Bridge. It was fun to watch.





PCP said:


> I am quite sure you are wrong about chines not improving performance. Not that I techinaclly understand much of the matter, but the guys that understand are all using them to improve performance .Paulo


Paulo,
Small misunderstanding. I am only saying that the chines on my twenty year old steel Van de Stadt do not improve performance. No amount of chines will ever make my heavy old girl go fast. On the other hand, I have no doubt that boats like Leopard , the Open 40s and 60s, the Volvo 70s etc etc were designed with chines because of the performance benefit. 
cheers
Andrew


----------



## tdw

Santa Cruz have done great things for years and years eh ? . The SC43 is a very pretty boat indeed. I notice the connection to Sydney Yachts another non Euro brand doing interesting things.

Yachts - Sydney Yachts

Its wonderful to have this thread that takes to the road less travelled. Sure, very few of us will ever have the chance to own one of these beautiful creations but its a good thing to discuss them and have a bit of a drool.

Hey, I don't even want to travel as fast as some of these things can go. Speed may be fun but its also stressful. Yes, I'd like a boat that can clock up 200-300 mile days in the right conditions but that will do me I think.

I'm sure Paulo posted something earlier about one of the Sydneys. Nice boats. This is the 43.


----------



## PCP

*On design - Speed / JP54*



tdw said:


> Paulo,
> Small misunderstanding. I am only saying that the chines on my twenty year old steel Van de Stadt do not improve performance. No amount of chines will ever make my heavy old girl go fast. On the other hand, I have no doubt that boats like Leopard , the Open 40s and 60s, the Volvo 70s etc etc were designed with chines because of the performance benefit.
> cheers
> Andrew


Sorry about that

Yes, Sydney are very good and very beautiful boats and I believe that they would sell a lot more if they were not so far away from Europe, where the main market is. Nice photos

And I don't agree when you say : *"Speed may be fun but it's also stressful".*

If you pick one of those boats and sail it at 100% of its capabilities, yes, it could be stressful, at least for a not very experienced sailor (like me ). But if you sail that boat at 75% of its capabilities, he just glides away happily, still leaving behind almost all the boats. No stress and with a comfortable motion.

Now, you have talked about "strange Thing" talking about the Cigale. I will show what I call a *strange thing .* Not the boat, that I find fantastic, but about the* interior.* I am talking aboat the JP 54, a New Zeeland boat (designed by a French NA). It was a Jean Pierre Dick idea:

"Winner of the Barcelona World Race and twice champion of the Transat Jacques Vabre, Jean-Pierre Dick has always enjoyed cruising with his family and friends. Disappointed by production yachts, he decided to design the ideal yacht. This is a 54 foot boat, combining the performance of modern racing yachts with the comfort of a real cruising yacht, all this enhanced by the highly original and functional interior design.

.......
.... Jean-Pierre Dick, has imagined a top-of-the-range fast cruising yacht whose design is unique. Designed by Guillaume Verdier* and the interior designed by Stéphanie Marin, the first JP54 has just been launched in Auckland, New Zealand. Produced in a limited series by Absolute Dreamer, the JP54 takes its inspiration from the performances of racing boats to discover new horizons. The JP54 will be in France this summer.

Jean-Pierre Dick: "I imagined the cruising yacht of my dreams during my last two Vendée Globe races. I wanted to sail offshore and at the same time enjoy stopovers. I therefore conceived the JP54, a uniquely designed light and fast yacht, to retain the pleasure of surfing at 20 knots more comfortably than on my racing yacht. With the JP54, you can share the sensations and the pleasures of sailing with your family and friends."

*The satellite, a revolution inside*
In order to optimize the performance of the JP54 and to create *a new indoor living space, the boat has a satellite; a rotating carousel. This innovative concept was developed on board Paprec-Virbac 2**. The satellite is a galley-chart table unit into which all the systems such as the batteries, hydraulics and storage are fitted. The loaded weight (600 kg) can be transferred windward in a few seconds just by pressing a button.*

It is the first time that a similar concept has been put into use on a cruising yacht. The gain is important both in terms of performance and comfort on board. The sailors are always windward when at the chart table or cooking, while the guests enjoy a large space leeward.

Jean-Pierre Dick: "Through the experience of single-handed sailing, I have been able to design a boat that is really simple to use." The hydraulic winches remove the physical side to manoeuvring. In 10 minutes, all the sails are hoisted! The cockpit is uncluttered making movement easy on deck and allowing you to enjoy the sunbaths comfortably. The whole of the pit is brought back to starboard on an electric winch. There is no mainsheet rail. The JP54 can easily be manoeuvred double-handed in all circumstances."





















*Take a look at the movie to see the interior  :*

*Movie* : http://www.jp54.fr/gallery-video/page_k7.html

JP54, the fast cruising yacht - JPDICK yachts - JP54

Sail-World.com : A look aboard the new JP54: Above decks a one sided yacht!

Jean-Pierre Dick's JP54 - Racing Applied to Cruising. | Yacht Sponsorship

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sydney GTS 43*

Hey, TDW where did you get those Sidney 43 photos? The one with teak is really incredibly beautiful.

I can only get some 3d models and the plans:

Photo Gallery: Sydney GTS43










They are doing a new boat, the 37. I is also a very nice one:
This one has some resemblance with the Elan 380.










Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

*Sydney Yachts*

Paulo,

Found them on the main SY site.

Photo Gallery: Sydney 47 Cruiser Racer by Sydney Yachts

also

Photo Gallery: Sydney 39 Cruiser Racer by Sydney Yachts

Photo Gallery: Sydney 38 One Design by Sydney Yachts

Photo Gallery: Sydney 32 One Design by Sydney Yachts

but I don't think there are any photos of the two new GTS models.

Cheers

Andrew

ps - JP54...what can I say but WOW !!! Sure it is not my speed but WOW !!. You have to love the seating, that is inspired by Antoni Gaudi's work in Park Guell, Barcelona.

pps - re stress at speed...I'll come back to that later on.


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> I would also have preferred a single wheel (by the reasons I give on post 119) and maybe that comes as an option but I do not understand what you mean when you say that "it kills the cockpit space once you arrive at destination".
> 
> If that boat had not two wheels it would have to have a big wheel and that would make the passage between the front of the cockpit and the back more difficult. I will post an Elan 38 photo to explain what I mean:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Just saw this so a day late and a dollar short. I guess my point of view is that a dual wheel tiller on a 35 is a gimmick and nothing more. Takes up space, adds hardware to maintain, reduces fell (typically), and adds nothing other than "prestige" vs. a standard tiller.

I know everyone has their "likes" and "dislikes" but that's my take. One is bad enough, 2 is crazy on a 35 footer. Having spent many a weekend evening on the hook on 31 to 40 footers, nothing better than raising the tiller to vertical and having the full cockpit available to R&R. I can't imagine the justification for having to cramp into a 2m x 1m50 space just for the visual impact of two wheels on a boat this size.

Anal, I know, but just my point of view.


----------



## tdw

bb74 said:


> Just saw this so a day late and a dollar short. I guess my point of view is that a dual wheel tiller on a 35 is a gimmick and nothing more. Takes up space, adds hardware to maintain, reduces fell (typically), and adds nothing other than "prestige" vs. a standard tiller.
> 
> I know everyone has their "likes" and "dislikes" but that's my take. One is bad enough, 2 is crazy on a 35 footer. Having spent many a weekend evening on the hook on 31 to 40 footers, nothing better than raising the tiller to vertical and having the full cockpit available to R&R. I can't imagine the justification for having to cramp into a 2m x 1m50 space just for the visual impact of two wheels on a boat this size.
> 
> Anal, I know, but just my point of view.


Reality is some people prefer a wheel and on a wide bum modern hull twin wheels are one way of being able to sit way out on the side. Not much point for cruising I guess but good for a race.

Sure a tiller with extension or a single huge diameter wheel does the same job but thats a personal choice isn't it ?


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350*

Yes, I would have also preferred a tiller and as second choice a single wheel, but what I was trying to say is that if it was a single wheel it would have to be a big one.

Andrew, on a large transom boat like that, it would have to be a big one because the comfortable steering place would be seated on the side of the boat. If the boat had a small wheel, for example the size of one of the dual wheels, you would not be able to reach it from the sitting position. You would only have a steering position: Standing. Not very comfortable

I have read the first test on that boat, by the German "Yacht" magazine.

*Recorded speeds *with *18k wind *and 1m waves:

40º - *6.5k *60º - *8.2k *90º - *8.7k *120º - *9.0k* 150º - *8.2K*

Guys, this boat not only looks fast... *IS FAST*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Paulo, yes. We are in complete agreement.

Hey, in another thread Nemier speaks of his liking for the RM1060 the virtues of which you were extolling earlier in the thread. 

Great looking boats. Damn, those French are doing good things with boats. The 1050 could almost convince I don't need anything bigger and even the older 1050 is a good looking thing. Don't get me started on the 1350....I'll drool up my keyboard....

edit...I beg pardon.....all of the above was covered earlier on in THIS thread. I must have been asleep at the time.


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1200*

Andrew, from what I know of your tastes you are looking to the wrong RM. The one that is for you is the 1200. I have test sailed that boat (some months back) and I believe it will make you happy. I have test sailed it the day after test sailing the Opium 39. It was like changing from a Porsche to a BMW ( I do prefer the Porsche  ).

The Rm is pretty fast even if does not offer the same wild sensation of the Opium. Fact is that you go fast but you have to look to the speed instrument to notice it. The boat heels not much and glides easily.

That boat is my wife's favorite. It can carry 700 L of water and has a very good interior with a fantastic galley.

Actually this boat can be more than a dream to you. They cost new about 192 000 euros (without VAT) and they were made since 2003. I have seen some selling from about 180 000 euros and I think that soon you are going to find it around 150 000. But this price is a price with VAT, if you can find one with a VAT not paid, or a deductable one it will cost you about 120 000 euros. Normally these boats are bought by guys that like to voyage and they have already everything you need.

I didn't post about this one probably because it is the one I prefer, actually is the one with the better interior, 1300 included.

Take a look at the boat interior here:

Visite 360°

RM YACHTS | RM 1200










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 325*

Marty, take a good look at this one:

I think they have heard me complaining to TDW that their interiors looked like some 3th rate Nordic modern style design, because they are just changing all their interior styling.

The new 325 it will be the first and if the reality would looks as well as the drawings, it would be very agreeable.

The hull design seems classic, but the Hanse can be pretty fast. Take a look at your PHRF lists and try to find Hanses. They will be mixed with some modern cruiser racers

And even if this one would not be as fast as the Elan 31 or the Jeanneau 32, it would be certainly less expensive and with a better interior, more cruising oriented, and if that cannot be a problem in a 40 ft, on a 32ft boat all space is needed.

Hanses also have two very interesting things: As a not very expensive option you can have the boat made in Epoxy and you can protect it with a colored hull. They do have a very nice color collection schemes.

Hanse Yachts










Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Saw that the other day looking for the Salona and the Ovni owned other branded boat. Sheryl does like the Hanse's we have been in. They are pretty quick overall. Not sure the 325 would be the one, but maybe the new 355?!?! with out looking at the website. I need for my budget any how, something mid 30, she wants a shower that is separate from the head area. The jeanneau 36i 2 cabin is probably the "BEST" from what we have seen on the market. excepting maybe the older SO/SF37 which is really similar too. Can not recall on the SO/SF35. The newest 30 and 33 from Jeanneau do not appear to be too much less tight if you will than my current 85 Arcadia. 

She likes the pics from the X's, Grand Soliel (sp?) too. There is a 40'r or two floating around here. Been on one of those. Then again, ANY 40 something has more room than out 30, should be 28' and the mid 30's we look at.

Marty


----------



## tdw

Paulo, agreed. Of the RMs the 1200 would be most suitable for us. The 1350 is nonetheless a very sexy thing but for it's size the 1060 is a beauty. 

Nemier was once very interested in the VDS34. While I do love our old girl the 1060 is a much more advanced design. Not surprising, given the age of the VDS. 

Cheers, Andrew.


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Saw that the other day looking for the Salona and the Ovni owned other branded boat. Sheryl does like the Hanse's we have been in. They are pretty quick overall. Not sure the 325 would be the one, but maybe the new 355?!?! with out looking at the website. I need for my budget any how, something mid 30, *she wants a shower that is separate from the head area*. The jeanneau 36i 2 cabin is probably the "BEST" from what we have seen on the market. excepting maybe the older SO/SF37 which is really similar too. Can not recall on the SO/SF35. The newest 30 and 33 from Jeanneau do not appear to be too much less tight if you will than my current 85 Arcadia.
> 
> She likes the pics from the X's, Grand Soliel (sp?) too. There is a 40'r or two floating around here. Been on one of those. Then again, ANY 40 something has more room than out 30, should be 28' and the mid 30's we look at.
> 
> Marty


Yes, my wife wants the same (the separated shower) but with me she is not going to have any luck . Fast boats just don't have that.

I don't know of any big production 35 or 36ft on the market with a separated shower, *but I know of one that is coming soon *:


















That's the new Farr/BMW Bavaria.

Marty, I do like Grand-Soleils and if I could chose a boat no matter the price, the GS 43 and the x 43 would be on my short list. They are not because they are just too expensive, even if used (with few years).

The Bavaria has some advantages over French big production boats of the same price. They have a much better Dispacement/Ballast ratio, more storage space and mutch more options, including the ones that can make it a fast boat. I agree that the French boats (Jeanneau and Oceanis) have a better interior design, meaning they look nicer, even if the Bavaria is more functional and has more storage and tankage. The Hanse is a more expensive boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

The 36i has a separate shower, but as you say, low end bal/disp, and the performance version with its whopping 1' higher mast than the std version, why bother! other than line control genoa carrs, folding prop, and a 6.75' drat vs 6.3' draft. 

Will have to check out the bavaria. There is a match 35 for sale locally, another older boat, I like the over all plan, useage design etc.

marty


----------



## PCP

The weight needed on the ballast has to do with the deep of the keel and with the weight of the boat. They say that the Bavaria 36 will have 7T and I don't buy it. When the previous Bavaria 36 appeared on the market they first announced a weight of 4,7T (a light boat) and as the conservative kind of sailors that normally buy Bavarias got worried, the weight of the boat went mysteriously to 5,5T .

I don't believe the new boat weights more 1,5 T. It makes no sense.

Bavaria Yachtbau: Technical Data

There is many ways to measure the weight in a boat, from completely empty, to minimum sailing condition to a full load. They call it unloaded weight and I don't know what that means, but I do now that they found out that their clients like heavier boats and instead of making heavier boats (that are expensive and slow) I believe they have found a way to creatively add weight to their boats. But for the ones that know better the real weight of the boat is important because it is the only way to know how much ballast the boat has (ratio D/B), short of a stability curve.

About the Match 35, the Match series were the only boats that gave problems to Bavaria. Not the 35, but the 42, had real problems with the keels. I never heard nothing about the 35 keel, but I would be very careful in buying a a Match boat and I would inspect very carefully that keel and its support. I believe that was mainly a design problem and too narrow specifications (JJ design).

Take a look at this video with the new 45 (the boat seems too big and high to me) at the middle of it you will find an interesting interview with a NA from Farr design. He says that Bavaria is discussing with them a new cruiser racer line: ALELUIA

YouTube - bavaria 45 HD.mov

Take also a look at this one that shows the 45 interior. It seems a real upgrade if we compare it with the nonsense that was going one on the 3 or 4 last years. It is no design masterpiece but it looks very functional again and the quality seems satisfactory.

YouTube - Bavaria 45.mov

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Bavarias have their detractors, mainly it seems concerning overall quality of fit and finish. The thing I least like about them is that they invariably seem to push the v-berth so far into the bow that there s bugger all room to wiggle your tootsies.

Love the aft head. Thats been a feature of Van de Stadts for decades and having lived with one on the Womboat I have nothing but praise for the concept. 

Coming back to the RM1200, ther is very little not to like about that boat. I'd probably ditch the pilot berths in exchange for book shelves (lee clothes on the saloon settees will do for me). 

While not a true Deck Saloon the ports in the hull seem perfectly placed for gazing out while reclining on the settees and although the head does not have a true separate shower stall it comes pretty damn close. Overall, coming in at just under 40' she is for me very very close to the perfect size for two people.


----------



## PCP

This is the kind of nonsense I am talking about:










Can you believe it? Somebody should have told the Architect that this was not a house but a boat and explain her the diferences (it was a woman)....Jesus .

Bav51_Kueche05_01-2.jpg picture by Paulo_Carvalho - Photobucket

There was a lot of dealers completely pissed with this madness. It seems that had to do with changing the traditional image they had. It was a shoot on the foot. They seem to be on the right way now.

Yes, I could have been lucky, but the image I have from Bavarias is that they let a lot of details for you to do later ...nothing important and nothing you can not do, important things like structural reinforcements are reliable and well done. Things like a kevlar protection on the hull on the impact zone, the way the shrouds are fixed, that kind of things are solid and well done. Well done, comparativelly with the competition that are Jeanneaus and Oceanis, not with yachts that cost 2 or 3 times more.

About the RM 1200: sitting on the chart table you will have a good view to the outside and I believe that with the waves you will see the horizon. You can pilot the boat from there. If you have any doubt you can just stand for a moment and you will have a clear view all around.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Van de Stadt - Winner 12.20*



tdw said:


> ...
> Nemier was once very interested in the VDS34. While I do love our old girl the 1060 is a much more advanced design. Not surprising, given the age of the VDS.
> Cheers, Andrew.


Today Van de Stadt is not a top NA firm. Ricus Van de Stadt (a great naval architect) died in 1999 and stop working in 1978. He made a lot of sucessful race boats, back in the 50's and 60's.

From 1978 the firm belongs to his partner and the design quality is not the same. Not that the boats are bad (they are seaworthy) but most of them are not good lucking and they are not invovative as were the ones from Ricus.

Van de Stadt Design

On the 90's they designed for Dehler (when the Dehlers were ugly ) and today the only production boat they design is the Winner. The winner 12.20 is a bit nicer looking than the rest of the line. It is a good boat, (expensive) but its design looks dated (outside and hull). I believe that the very good interior and the overall quality would have deserved a better looking boat. I have been inside that one and I can tell you that it has one of the best 40 cruiser racers interior. Quality and design: Just beautiful and functional, It should be a pleasure to live in that boat.

Winner Yachts - Way Ahead - Sailing

























Today Van de Stadt is best known to the home made boat builders market. They sell plans of seworthy boats that are easy to build.

But there is someone in that cabinet that can design nice boats, big custom aluminum boats.

You have posted a photo of one of them, on post 156 (the boat that are behind the Bestwind).

Most of them are built by the same company that makes the Bestwind, they are called Stadtships:

Van de Stadt sailing yachts - K&M Yachtbuilders










Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Looked up that B36, boy is that going tobe a heavy son of a gun if the specs on the Canada/W US importers site is correct, something like 15500 lbs! Here I thought the J36i at 12K lbs was heavy! I do like the ballast ratio, or at least the upper 4K lb amount. Now if they could put that puppy on a major diet! drop some 4000 lbs, add about 100sft of sail area.......I might like it!

At least with the Hanse 375, it is listed at 15Klbs, it has 900# of SA IIRC from specs, along with an upper 4K lbs ballast amount too! you have the SA to move the thing. It does have the self tacking jib, along with an option for a bigger HS for when racing. The ST jib would be nice when it is just spouse and I. I do not like to say she does not help, but really only steers, other handling issues, it is up to me. 

I do like the epoxy hull option for the Hanse's, I am recalling that dropping the lbs a bit, not sure if the price addition would be worth it or not. 

Dehler has a 35RS, the old 34, now 35 with Hanse buying them out, they did some lighter core desings with parts and peices, dropped the boat wt some 1100 lbs! That was a quick boat to begine with. That could be another option of I get some money in thebank. ALtho really only one dealer in the US< in chicago, ie inportor. 

Looks like some manufactures are coming out with some new designs, will be interesting to see what occurs over the next 12-24 months as some redo their lines. 

Marty


----------



## tdw

Oh yes, those StadShips are nice and with KMY building them the quality would undoubtedly be superb.

Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger's Hawk is a nice example of a non KYM Van de Stadt. She's a VDS Samoa 47.




























The last pic is the VDS34. That's a sister ship of ours as I don't have any pics of Raven under sail.

Of course the Dehler (DS41) on my wishlist is not a Van de Stadt but a Judel- Vrolijk. Pity. We'd both be quite happy to have another VDS after Raven.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> The last pic is the VDS34. That's a sister ship of ours as I don't have any pics of Raven under sail.
> 
> Of course the Dehler (DS41) on my wishlist is not a Van de Stadt but a Judel- Vrolijk. Pity. We'd both be quite happy to have another VDS after Raven.


That's a good looking boat. It was a steel one?

I don't think Judel-Vrolijk is a worst Cabinet than Van de Stadt. Just compare both portfolios.

judel-vrolijk.com

Van de Stadt Design

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

Hello Together!

I am following your discussion with great interest! There are some great
designs around and I am thinking about what ship I prefer for a long
term trip with family which should start in 3 years latest. Pogo 12.50
is one of my favorites (even though difficult to finance)
I have made a 1200 miles non-stop Pogo 40 trip and found it very
exciting - however quite bumpy. 
I just got the message that the first Pogo 12.50 prototype will get
tested mid of this month...

There have been some interesting questions in this discussions. One is
about the tillers and I like to know what you think about the fact, that
Pogo 12.50 seems to come with a single tiller. I fear this might be a
major disadvantage.

SeanRW asked some interesting questions as well. I can say something
regarding this:
Provision for anchoring is no problem for the bigger Pogo's. A chain is
ok and e.g. the new Pogo 12.50 is offered with electric windlass as an
option.
A bimini is available as well for this boats, however I would be curious
how it looks like.
For Pogo 12.50 the (short term) storage for a dinghy should be the rear
end of the VERY spacious cockpit

Another question mentioned here is about the missing thermal insulation
for the very light boats. Does somebody have experience with this in
very hot regions? (In cold weather you just get condensation
everywhere...)

Regards,
Ulf


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 12.50*

Ulf,

You are very welcome to this thread . I will share some comments about the 12.50, but it seems to me that you have more to offer to this thread about the Pogo than me. So please post your detailed comments about that 1200 mile voyage with the Pogo 40:

Typical speeds with different kind of winds (upwind and downwind), sailing comfort (explain better the bumby comment: upwind? downwind? with short wave? with any waves?). It was the racing or the cruising version?

Regarding the single tiller (all the other Pogos have dual tillers) it seems to me like a way of clearing space on the cockpit. Of course the tiller has to have a big stick (extension) to be handle from both sides of the boat. I don't know if that will make it less sensible (it should at some extent). I believe I would prefer the dual tiller system. If it works better on the racing boats I cannot understand why they have opted for a single one. Perhaps price contention

Regarding the insulation, this boat is made with a double skin with expanded polyester as a core (including the deck). Expanded polyester is a very good insulator. I don't know how thick it is that core, but it will offer a far better insulation than a single skin. If you are interested in a cruiser-racer, I doubt the insulation on one of those would be much better than in The Pogo (maybe in some expensive boats, like X yachts or Grand-Soleil that have also dual skin hulls and also interior surfaces with foam behind).

How about the insulation on that 40 Pogo? I mean that comment of yours:
Condensation everywhere is related with that experience?

I believe you get condensation in small spaces if the interior is a lot warmer than the outside if there are people inside (that creates humidity) and there is no ventilation. I believe the answer to that is one of those Webasto pulse air heater coupled with a good air circulation. If you are in a car without ventilation in winter you will get condensation in a very short period of time. But if you connect the heater (blowing hot air), the condensation will go away quickly.

Pogo has an air heater of that kind among the few options

I am waiting for the stability curve, when I have it, I will post it here. I believe that the boat will have a decent AVS and a good reserve stability.

I have received information about the different ballasts and keels. Has it was to be expected all give a similar stability to the boat (RM curve).

The boat can come with a swing keel ( 1,2/3m) with a ballast of 2250kg, a fixed keel with 3m and a ballast of 1830kg and a fixed keel with 2.20m and a ballast of 2250kg.

Waiting for your comments on the Pogo 40



















Pogo

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> That's a good looking boat. It was a steel one?
> 
> I don't think Judel-Vrolijk is a worst Cabinet than Van de Stadt. Just compare both portfolios.
> 
> Metasearch Search Engine - Search.com
> 
> Van de Stadt Design
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yep she is steel. That one is lifted from the VDS website. Tiller steered and fractional rig. Ours has a wheel and masthead rig. If I had my way I'd go tiller/fractional but thats not a big issue. The reality is that at 34' steel is a poor choice of material. We are significantly heavier than the coldmoulded or GRP versions yet carry less weight in the keel. The VDS34 was a good little boat in her time. To be frank we often sit onboard and think that if we could blow her up to 40' she would be perfect. That's being sentimental of course. Despite the shortcomings I think we all love our boats. I hate the idea of selling her even though we know we will have to do so in the not too distant future. She has treated us very well indeed.

Which is partly why I said that I wish the DS41 was a Van de Stadt. We'd both be happy to own another one. It was no criticism of Judel-Vroljik who are very fine designers indeed.

ps - we went to the Sydney Boat Show yesterday. I'll post something about that later on today.


----------



## PCP

Yes, steel is not a good choice for a small boat. It makes the boat too heavy. They put less ballast but the final stability is worst than in the same boat made of fiberglass (with more ballast on the keel). 

However there is a thing that you are going to miss and that is boat motion. As a lot of the weight is distributed by the hull, that gives a sweet motion to a steel boat.

I am waiting for that report, and photos if you have.

Regards, and good night. I am going to bed (1.15 AM) .

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Yes, steel is not a good choice for a small boat. It makes the boat too heavy. They put less ballast but the final stability is worst than in the same boat made of fiberglass (with more ballast on the keel).
> 
> However there is a thing that you are going to miss and that is boat motion. As a lot of the weight is distributed by the hull, that gives a sweet motion to a steel boat.
> 
> I am waiting for that report, and photos if you have.
> 
> Regards, and good night. I am going to bed (1.15 AM) .
> 
> Paulo


Sweet Dreams....


----------



## blt2ski

No boat comments today from me, just spent about 6 hrs in an ER, thinking I had appendicitis, Looks like it might be more like an ulcer type issue! Not sure I am liking the ulcer type issue personally....

Anyway, Paulo, I did see you point out, and feel the wt of the B36 seemed high. Not sure I want one that heavy for the length etc. I know I would like to get a SA/disp in the 22to 26-1 range, for the light airs I have around here, easy to reef etc in my mind, hard to get more SA when it is 1-5 knots of wind one is dealing with!

Over here any way, The J's, Ben's, bav's and Hanse are in the same ballbark. altho with Jeanneau now building in SC where beneteau builds boats ont he east coast, the 36i is about US&15K less than one built in France. Now if they would do the same thing with the 3200, which I doubt they will for many many reasons. 

Time to go rest some more, maybe go to sleep myself, abut 7:40PM here.

Marty


----------



## SeanRW

myocean said:


> Hello Together!
> 
> I am following your discussion with great interest! There are some great
> designs around and I am thinking about what ship I prefer for a long
> term trip with family which should start in 3 years latest. Pogo 12.50
> is one of my favorites (even though difficult to finance)
> I have made a 1200 miles non-stop Pogo 40 trip and found it very
> exciting - however quite bumpy.
> I just got the message that the first Pogo 12.50 prototype will get
> tested mid of this month...
> 
> There have been some interesting questions in this discussions. One is
> about the tillers and I like to know what you think about the fact, that
> Pogo 12.50 seems to come with a single tiller. I fear this might be a
> major disadvantage.
> 
> SeanRW asked some interesting questions as well. I can say something
> regarding this:
> Provision for anchoring is no problem for the bigger Pogo's. A chain is
> ok and e.g. the new Pogo 12.50 is offered with electric windlass as an
> option.
> A bimini is available as well for this boats, however I would be curious
> how it looks like.
> For Pogo 12.50 the (short term) storage for a dinghy should be the rear
> end of the VERY spacious cockpit
> 
> Another question mentioned here is about the missing thermal insulation
> for the very light boats. Does somebody have experience with this in
> very hot regions? (In cold weather you just get condensation
> everywhere...)
> 
> Regards,
> Ulf


Gulp....I can have an all chain rode on the primary anchor AND a windlass ?
I can have a dodger/bimini of some sort ? (praying it's not f-ugly)
Dinghy can be stored deflated if need be.

I love this boat !!!

SRW

(now where'd I hide my chequebook ?)


----------



## tdw

*Sydney Boat Show*

...grumble grumble grumble.....bloody technology....

Not sure what is going on but having problems with card from camera.

Anywho...we went to the show on Monday. Spent a goodly amount of time wandering about looking into this and that. Here's a short account...minus pics. (I've included some lifted off the web.)

Any criticism of any of these boats is based on their newness and their cost. Even the ones I damn are in all probablity better than what I have now but then they are also a damn site more expensive.

Reality is that the SBS is a minor event in the international boat show calendar. Though I've never had the chance to visit the biggies (London, Southampton, Genoa, Dusseldorf, Barcelona ????) Sydney gets half the number of visitors as London, really only the big guys display and even then often a very small selection of boats. Total around 200 exhibitors but many of these were small stands selling gear, accessories and the like. Sadly no Swans or their ilk and of course none of the boutique European brands that we've been drooling over in this thread. I guess the top of the line sailing boats on display would have been Moody, X, Hallberg Rassey and of course the usual suspects, Beneteau, Juneau, Elan etc etc.

For us it was a good show. We spent a fair amount of time sussing out bits and pieces of hardware that are not sold at the bigger chandleries but thats not of any interest to you lot.

We had a good look at a number of boats, some gobsmacking, some disappointing. The Hanse 545 by Judel-Vroljik was a star. OK so not my cup of tea overall, but the scale of thing made it a standout. From the outside very impressive, indeed I did like the design. Interior, we've discussed this before, too much like a modern apartment though admittedly not quite as Ikea as some of the others. In its own way you have to give the designers credit for this one. What about those flush hatches ? Not unique to Hanse of course, but very impressive.










Elan - Sadly no 350. Too new to have made it downunder as yet. Shame. Had a good look at a 384. Yes I could live with one of these but it would never be my pride and joy, ultimately a bit too plastic. The thing appears well built though the joinery could have been better. Fabulous layout on deck, good cockpit, quite comfortable down below. I was quite surprised by how non claustrophobic was the aft cabin. I could be content with this though I do prefer to sleep up front. The 384 is designed by Rod Humphries, better known to me as the designer of the British Southerlys, a boat I have always liked.

Bluewater Yachts - An Australian builder of exceptionally high quality low output serious cruising yachts. I've been a fan of Bluewater owner David Bradburn since I first went on board one of his boats six or seven years ago. Currently offering a 40'er (BW420) design by legendary Australian designer Joe Adams, a Ron Holland designed 45'er and a 52'er designed by Bruce Farr, as yet none built. They only had the 40 on display and it was in fact an older boat that they had recently refurbished. I won't harp on about deck saloons, so lets presume for the moment that I am not obsessed with them, OK ? The BW 420 I could take home tomorrow. We did in fact go close to making an offer on one in 2008 but the price was too high and they would not negotiate. She did in fact sell for full asking. Not going to be the fastest boat in the world but rock solid and would make a marvelous cruising home. Every aspect of this boat screams quality even though I am not convinced by the design of the hard dodger. Admittedly it looks better in real life than on paper. You could buy a second hand BW for about the same price as a new Elan 384. No contest as far as I'm concerned.

Bluewater Cruising Yachts | Home Page



















Dehler - It was for me wonderful to sit down in a Dehler and have a good look around. They only had two boats on display, a new series 32 and one of the older line the 45. Now I have to say that the 32 did not move me. I'm not overly impressed with this current trend towards what I think of as 'bubble boats'. Talk about frozen snot. I'd much rather the angular lines of say a Hanse 545 than the Dehler 32. OTOH, the 45 was the second boat at this show that I could have put under my arm and carried off home. Just superb. Build quality could not be faulted from what I saw. Sensible interior layout, nice cockpit and well laid out deck. If my dreamboat DS41 is as well built as the 45....I am happy. Only three DS41s ever made it to Australia btw. I'd always presumed that we would have to import one but the Dehler rep reckons there is one about to come onto the Oz market in Oz. If he is correct we'll be very interested I'm sure. Depending of course on the price.

Bavaria.....I will be very interested to see that new Farr design when it appears. I confess I have always found Bavarias to be handsome boats let down by the interior. I realise they are built to a price and I suppose I'd still rather one of these than a Beneteau or a Juneau but the joinery disappoints me.

Beneteau....had a wander through an Oceanis 40....leaves me totally unmoved.

Juneau.....as above for a DS40. Not that they are awful, just bland as bland can be. Very disappointing. I used to really like the old model Juneau Deck Saloons and sure the 50 plus footers are pretty impressive but no, not my speed.

Catalina....gee I hope Cruising Dad doesn't see this cos he has been extolling the praises of the Catalina but I'm afraid....see above. Maybe the odler ones are better than the newer. Even the hatches into the bilges were jammed on this thing.

To be honest from what I saw, the Elan was a better build than Beneteau. Juneau or Catalina. While I do still find the Elan too plastic, it would be the pick for me of the less expensive production yachts.

Salona....new , very new, to the Australian market and I really wanted to have a look see but there were too many people crawling around when we went past and I am embarassed to admit we forgot to go back.  We'll have to speak with the dealer and go have a look post show.

Moody....way out of my price league....but I've always liked Moodys. The old 425 is an old favourite. That whacko Pilot House I love, if only because it is out there while the new Classic looks a pretty fine piece of kit, little bit too "olde newe" for my liking but I suspect that this is a boat that will age well.

That's probably about it as far as the stuff we were interested in. I should have taken notes I guess but there were some lovely small daysailers on display and a vertiable horde of stink boats both large and small, almost all without exception being loathsome. I'm not really anti stink boats as such. Indeed I well admit that the day will come when I will go that way once I can no longer handle a sailing boat. For me, I'd rather be on the water in a stinker than not on the water at all. That said the current generation of frozen snot surrounded by a myriad of those vile underwater led lights just makes me want to uke.

Nuff said.

Oh...didn't mention multi hulls. Had a quick look at a Lagoon and an Australian built Seawind. Reality is the Wombet simply refuses to discuss the things. I can see they have appeal but she just hates them. Waste of time spending much time investigating but I really did like one little trimaran with folding wings. I forget the name right now and the info is at home. Only about 20' long but as a day sailor, occasional stay on board she would be terrific.

Rest of the time was spent looking at gear. I'll spare you the details.

Cheers


----------



## T37SOLARE

Thanks for the run down TDW, very nice. 

Maybe a new thread about new gear you saw down there would be appreciated by us blokes up here...


----------



## PCP

Hey Man, great post 

I agree with almost everything you have said even If I find those "Bluewater cruising yachts" pretty dated in what concerns design.

The cruising line of Elans are really too fat. You mean they had not any of the performance line there? The Elan 380 and the 410 are really nice boats, with very nice interiors. No fat ladies, but athletic gals with a nice and accommodating body, if you know what I mean 

No Benetaus First? The 45 and the 50 are beautiful boats with a great interior.

I agree about the big Dehler: what a boat...and what a price 

What Salona was there? You know the Salona is better appreciated on the water. It is a very good sailboat. This month I am going to visit the shipyard and have a look at the first Salona 41. Finished, but not yet out of the factory 

I agree that the big Hanse are just beautiful. Perhaps they have improved the interior, as you say. As I have said on a previous post, they are just changing their design concept, and for the better.

About the trimaran, would that not be a Dragonfly? I love those boats and if the 35ft was not sooooo expensive I would just buy one and live in a very frugal way...just to have the pleasure to cruise at 20k.

About the European boat shows, there are Dusseldorf and Paris...forget about the others 

Why don't you come to Paris, to the next one? I am going and there are worst cities to visit than Paris . I am sure that your wife would love it (I mean, not the boat show, the city ).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

T37SOLARE said:


> Thanks for the run down TDW, very nice.
> 
> Maybe a new thread about new gear you saw down there would be appreciated by us blokes up here...


Thank you.

I doubt there would be anything you guys are not already aware of. Usually I am chasing around at boat shows trying to find stuff I've seen mentioned here that I've not found in Oz.

Our main interest was in Auto Pilots....Raymarine won out I think, Inflatable...need a cheap one not top of the range, liked Plastimo for the price. Also looking at LED nav lights, Lopo seem pretty good, log (Raymarine again) and LED interior lighting.

Actually, I suppose the only chance we would have something that is not commonly available in the US would be if it was European.


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo, 

I would go to Paris for the boat show. spouse on other hand,,,,,,I'll be at the boat show alone, she'll be wondering the town, or very little timeover all at the boat show, more than I would hope elsewhere! One of these years, if nothing else, to say "I was there!"

Nice to hear about the Elans. May have to check into those a bit more, and maybe the Hanse. I have a price list for the most recent now old generation of the 32/35. They were not what I would call out of line cost wise.

Marty


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Hey Man, great post
> 
> I agree with almost everything you have said even If I find those "Bluewater cruising yachts" pretty dated in what concerns design.
> 
> The cruising line of Elans are really too fat. You mean they had not any of the performance line there? The Elan 380 and the 410 are really nice boats, with very nice interiors. No fat ladies, but athletic gals with a nice and accommodating body, if you know what I mean
> 
> No Benetaus First? The 45 and the 50 are beautiful boats with a great interior.
> 
> I agree about the big Dehler: what a boat...and what a price
> 
> What Salona was there? You know the Salona is better appreciated on the water. It is a very good sailboat. This month I am going to visit the shipyard and have a look at the first Salona 41. Finished, but not yet out of the factory
> 
> I agree that the big Hanse are just beautiful. Perhaps they have improved the interior, as you say. As I have said on a previous post, they are just changing their design concept, and for the better.
> 
> About the trimaran, would that not be a Dragonfly? I love those boats and if the 35ft was not sooooo expensive I would just buy one and live in a very frugal way...just to have the pleasure to cruise at 20k.
> 
> About the European boat shows, there are Dusseldorf and Paris...forget about the others
> 
> Why don't you come to Paris, to the next one? I am going and there are worst cities to visit than Paris . I am sure that your wife would love it (I mean, not the boat show, the city ).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,
No doubt the Bluewaters are dated. From memory they came off Adams drawing board over 20 years ago. So yes, old fashioned and slow but nonetheless lovely boat.

Re Elan...I get where you are coming from . They only had two boats, the 384 and the 340 which is a nice enough thing but I was really hoping to see a 350.

Yes there were a couple of Firsts but once she had seen the Oceanus she did not want anything to do with Beneteaus. To be honest she was still drooling about the Dehler.

Which is oh yes, what a price indeed but the Wombet was scrabbling about everywhere on that D45. She loved it. The dealer was pretty happy with the new 32. Certainly more realistically priced.

The Hanse interior is still apartment living, but it is expensive apartment living not some Ikea furnished students flat. 

Trimaran not a Dragonfly. Much smaller. This little thing could not have been bigger than 21-22'. I'll fine the details.

Love to do Paris and the Wombet would not object at all. She would be just as happy touring the boat show as out shopping for clothes, in fact she would rather look at boats than clothes. Then a nice little bistro for dinner. She'd be quite happy. Only problem is that I need to go to Europe some time September this year or April next. I doubt that I can manage an extra trip in the middle. We shall see. Damned expensive flying from Oz to Europe I'm afraid.


----------



## Kenif

*Paris Boat Show*

That begs the question - when is it?

Let see 2 return tickets ​= $3200
Accom for at least 5 nights ​= $750
Food etc​ = $1000
Luis Vutton and other expenses​= $3000

Hmmmm $10K OZ just for a show.

I think i can swing it with the wife but that chews into the deposit.

Dreaming.


----------



## PCP

*Boat show - Paris 2009*



Kenif said:


> That begs the question - when is it?
> 
> Let see 2 return tickets= $3200
> Accom for at least 5 nights= $750
> Food etc= $1000
> *Luis Vutton and other expenses= $3000*
> 
> Hmmmm $10K OZ just for a show.
> 
> I think i can swing it with the wife but that chews into the deposit.
> 
> Dreaming.


Jesus, I like my wife's tastes. They are not very expensive and she would prefer wasting that kind of money travelling.

Paris Boat show:

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique de paris 2009

Nautic - Salon Nautique de Paris 2010 - The annual gathering of the world of boating and water sports

Nautic - Salon Nautique de Paris 2010 - Le rendez-vous incontournable du nautisme à Paris !

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> Waiting for your comments on the Pogo 40


I have not so much experience with different types of boats but the Pogo 40-trip (cruising version) gave me a clear vision of what to do in future.

We made a trip with 6 persons, crossed the Biscaya from Brest and continued to Madeira non stop (September). 7 Days action. There was not one calm, sunny day with little wind (e.g. <10 knots) only. Mostly we ran down wind. Inside the boat is was usually quite noisy due to the high speed and the thin walls. Steering the boat even at high speed feels like steering a skiff. Great, Impressive! It is very easy to control. This boat is fast. We had min. 8-10 knots most of the time, 15 knots with good conditions and our max speed was 22 knots in gusts.
During more than one day of this trip we had 30-38 knots up wind (5 knots, 3rd reef, trinquette). Tough - with very hard landings when falling down on the backside of the waves. (as the bottom is quite flat...)



PCP said:


> Condensation everywhere is related with that experience?


Well, comfort is limited... 
With high speed it is difficult to open any hatch without getting water inside. So you have just the companion hatchway to get fresh air inside. 
On that trip we had after about 4 days a lot of condensation on the ceiling. So my sleeping bag got wet from dropping water - like in a stalactite cave. 
A Webasto heater would help partly only. E.g. can not have it running all night.
(so better to sail in warm regions with this boat or make sure you can get good ventilation from time to time)

Pogo 12.50 is from my point of view really great because the design is a bit more optimized for quality of life aboard (but not too much, please) and easy handling. You don't have water ballast (which is anyway cool I must admit) but a swing keel. So draft is no problem anymore. You have real doors inside! And you have an even more spacious cockpit.
Cruising with such a boat in warm weather could be great!

Pogo 10.50 is the cheaper option. May be big enough? I am not sure.



SeanRW said:


> (now where'd I hide my chequebook ?)


This could help to get such a ship... 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...66950-relevance-vat-when-selling-boat-eu.html

Yours, 
Ulf


----------



## Kenif

Paulo.

my wife her money.
She just likes quality souvineers of where we visit.

I've tried the 'waste' argument and lost. She is a lot smarter than me - after all she married me!


----------



## tdw

Kenif said:


> Paulo.
> 
> my wife her money.
> She just likes quality souvineers of where we visit.
> 
> I've tried the 'waste' argument and lost. She is a lot smarter than me - after all she married me!


That's the very issue that concerns me about the Wombet. For someone who is so smart how come she ended up with me ?


----------



## sailingdog

love is deaf, DUMB and blind...


tdw said:


> That's the very issue that concerns me about the Wombet. For someone who is so smart how come she ended up with me ?


----------



## tdw

The Opium is a lovely thing is it not ? As you say Paulo, maybe not as fast as the Pogo but a much more civilised boat for cruising. The head could be a little more civilised, but its not bad while the idea of that storage compartment accessible from the head is clever thinking. 

The questions I have is ..how weight sensitive are these boats ? I mean boats of this design concept. With a crew of two who defintely like to eat and drink well and who tend to carry around a small library of books are we likely to load them up so much that they lose any preformance benefits ?


----------



## PCP

*On design - load and speed on a light boat*



tdw said:


> The Opium is a lovely thing is it not ? As you say Paulo, maybe not as fast as the Pogo but a much more civilised boat for cruising. The head could be a little more civilised, but its not bad while the idea of that storage compartment accessible from the head is clever thinking.
> 
> The questions I have is ..how weight sensitive are these boats ? I mean boats of this design concept. With a crew of two who defintely like to eat and drink well and who tend to carry around a small library of books are we likely to load them up so much that they lose any preformance benefits ?


That question has two answers :

As you know the boat designer establish for each boat its maximum load. On the first years the EC certification had only into account a minimum load stability curve. Today they consider, to evaluate a boat stability, both curves, minimum and max load curves. The max load is the load considered safe, for sailing the boat.

I was surprised by the max load of the Opium. If I remember correctly, it can carry about 2000 kg of weight and that is huge if we consider that the boat only weights 5600kg. As comparison, the Bavaria 36 had a carrying capacity of 1000kg and that is a normal max load for a modern 36ft. The Bavaria weighted about the same as the Opium.

with Geenaker and main sail the Opium has 179 m2 of sail that can use from 60º to 160º. This gives it a fantastic sailing ability in light winds. Even with full load its weight is similar to a modern cruiser racer and much less than a pure cruising boat (less 3000kg and a lot more sail).

Now, if you are talking of a very sportive kind of sailing, planning downwind at 15 or 16k, yes a very loaded Opium (near its max load) is not going to plann as easely and it will make a big difference, but it still will be a fast and safe boat, if compared with other boats of the same size carrying the same load.

About how nice it is , go to the link on the bottom, have patience and after opening it, you will look at what it is a promotional picture of a city and a beach. Let it be and on the end of the page click on "Voile et Loisirs". There you are, on the *Paris Nautical boat show*. Maximize the image (top) right and you are going to see lots of nice boats. Look for the Opium: yes it is a very nice boat .

After doing that, go again and on a bottom chose "allures 57" and you are going to see the interior of one of the best aluminum French voyage boats. It don't looks like the rustic interior of a typical aluminum boat, it looks just perfect

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique de paris 2009

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Wow..compared with Sydney that is magnificent. 

Allures 40 would do me.....

Actually I don't really care for a lifting keel. Yes they have their attractions in some places but I think I'd prefer the simplicity of fixed. As long as the draft is kept to and absolute maximum of 2.2 and preferably 2.0.


----------



## PCP

*Elan 380*



tdw said:


> Wow..compared with Sydney that is magnificent.
> 
> Allures 40 would do me.....
> 
> Actually I don't really care for a lifting keel. Yes they have their attractions in some places but I think I'd prefer the simplicity of fixed. As long as the draft is kept to and absolute maximum of 2.2 and preferably 2.0.


Yes I agree, even if a non ballasted keel, like the ones on Allures or OVNI would not be a big problem. Now, the ones from Pogo, Opium or Southerlies, with tons of ballast swinging.....they work and are fine, but they are going to need maintenance, sooner or later and it is not going to be cheap.

If you are comfortable with a 2m draft you should look better to the Elan 380 and I say 380 and not 410 because the 210 costs already about 200 000 euros, fully equipped and without VAT (they advertise 160 000, but the cost of a decent boat is far more). The 380 costs about 160 000 (equipped) and it has a 2,05m draft.

It is a beautiful and fast boat with a cozy interior (forget about the red. Look at the colors on the 410. The 410 has a perfect interior, at least for my needs). Kind of minimum space requirements for my wife but I believe that she accepts that one because the interior is so comfortable.

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

Four days from now, I will be test sailing one, in Slovenia



















PS.

My last post (for now , I hope).

I am going cruising for a month. Take good care of this thread and make it yours (all of you that has been posting here). Please, post at will. I will look at it, from time to time, when I find a Bar with internet and that is going to be rare cause I like to anchor on nice places, when I am not sailing and I like to sail.


----------



## blt2ski

Have a good trip Paulo, 

something I wish I could do right now too!

Marty


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> My last post (for now , I hope).
> 
> I am going cruising for a month. Take good care of this thread and make it yours (all of you that has been posting here). Please, post at will. I will look at it, from time to time, when I find a Bar with internet and that is going to be rare cause I like to anchor on nice places, when I am not sailing and I like to sail.


Well enjoy yourselves. Hopefully we'll get to see some pretty pictures when you return.

Cheers

Andrew

Hey Marty....we'd better pull up our socks while he's away and make sure we keep the thread alive....


----------



## SeanRW

tdw said:


> .............
> Hey Marty....we'd better pull up our socks while he's away and make sure we keep the thread alive....


Socks ? You heathen....what kinda cruising sailor are you ? Bare foot or at the very least some overpriced, totally unsuitable but thoroughly fashionable boat shoes you found advertised in the latest issue of "Boating Vogue" :batter

Seriously, I want to hear more about the Pogo or the Puffins.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of the other vessels mentioned here are absolutely gorgeous but those two have really caught my eye.


----------



## blt2ski

Socks?!?!? I'm wearing a pair right now with my Keen sandles no less. That should really get on in trouble eh! Do that all the time here n Washington, that is the in thing, sailing or not!

Marty


----------



## SeanRW

Seriously,

Paulo had earlier introduced a few of us to the Cigale, a French aluminium racer/cruiser that featured some serious chines and a salon in the stern of the vessel.

Well, Alubat make a few other very interesting (IMO) vessels, specifically the OVNI lineup. I don't know what it is about these vessels that I find the most intriguing but overall they seem to offer a huge number of fantastic features.

- The interiors have a functional, purposeful look to them without any of the added "bling"
- The lifting keel (though hated by some) allows for shallow waters or even beaching
- If you crunch some of the numbers they appear impressive (SA/D 21.5, B/D 36%, DLR 162)
- A price that while out of reach for some is certainly comparable to some of the cruisers featured in this thread

Ovni 495 < Gamme Ovni < Les Gammes

2009 alubat OVNI 495 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com














































Comments anyone ? 

SRW


----------



## SeanRW

blt2ski said:


> Socks?!?!? I'm wearing a pair right now with my Keen sandles no less. That should really get on in trouble eh! Do that all the time here n Washington, that is the in thing, sailing or not!
> 
> Marty


BAH...I know all about you Tree Huggers in the North West....I used to live in Vancouver and had to deal with the Birkenstock, Granola, Latte types all the time...But you have got some wonderful sailing waters...so I'll put up with yer oddball fashion sense.


----------



## myocean

SeanRW said:


> (...) Alubat make a few other very interesting (IMO) vessels, (...)
> 
> Comments anyone ?
> 
> SRW


For me
there is a lack of speed for the Ovni and the Cigalle has no lifting keel, does it?

However - for serious long distance sailing, e.g. a circumnavigation, may be a Pogo is not robust enough? What about loosing lightweight rudders at high speed due to drifting objects like turtles or so? And will a carbon mast be as reliable and forgiving like a more conventional one?


----------



## tdw

blt2ski said:


> Socks?!?!? I'm wearing a pair right now with my Keen sandles no less. That should really get on in trouble eh! Do that all the time here n Washington, that is the in thing, sailing or not!
> 
> Marty


Marty , I am not going there OK ? The very thought gives me the horrors.

SeanRW....I'll give some more on Puffin next week OK ? Its Friday afternoon down here and its about time I replaced this desk and keyboard with a bar and cold beer. Then I'm off to the boat for the weekend.

MyOcean....Ovni too slow ? You're a hard man to please, they'd be well fast enough for me and as for the Cigalle I don't need no leefting keel.  
I realise it could come in handy sometime but in general I'm afraid I don't think they warrant the expense and possible maintenance hassles.


----------



## blt2ski

SeanRW said:


> BAH...I know all about you Tree Huggers in the North West....I used to live in Vancouver and had to deal with the Birkenstock, Granola, Latte types all the time...But you have got some wonderful sailing waters...so I'll put up with yer oddball fashion sense.


Excuse me?!?!?! Birkenstocks? latte's? Granola? Don't know what you are talking about. Latte's? is that anything like tea or hot chocolate? Birkenstocks? I believe that is a gun of some sort, like maybe the wood handle thingy that goes in the arm pit.......granola, unfortunately, from my boy sprout hiking days, I know of this, but I try not to eat too much, as I am allergic to oatmeal! I will admit to being born on Pill Hill in Seattle, above Charbucks HQ, which was a sears building at one time. Tulleys as I recall is down there in the old Rainer brewery. Two great building of old, not some drink type establishments that taste absolutely horrible!


----------



## SeanRW

_


myocean said:



For me
there is a lack of speed for the Ovni and the Cigalle has no lifting keel, does it?

However - for serious long distance sailing, e.g. a circumnavigation, may be a Pogo is not robust enough? What about loosing lightweight rudders at high speed due to drifting objects like turtles or so? And will a carbon mast be as reliable and forgiving like a more conventional one?

Click to expand...

_
*Ocean*: The OVNI has the lifting keel and the Cigale has a Centerboard as I recall. As for lack of speed, compared to the 22kn that was mentioned a few posts ago, sure you won't hit that in an OVNI but look at the stats I mentioned. She's stiff and has plenty of sail area so should be responsive, especially for a cruiser.

_


tdw said:



SeanRW....I'll give some more on Puffin next week OK ? Its Friday afternoon down here and its about time I replaced this desk and keyboard with a bar and cold beer. Then I'm off to the boat for the weekend.

MyOcean....Ovni too slow ? You're a hard man to please, they'd be well fast enough for me and as for the Cigalle I don't need no leefting keel.  
I realise it could come in handy sometime but in general I'm afraid I don't think they warrant the expense and possible maintenance hassles.

Click to expand...

_
*tdw*: Enjoy the beer and the boat. Better'n work anyday

_


blt2ski said:



Excuse me?!?!?! Birkenstocks? latte's? Granola? Don't know what you are talking about. Latte's? is that anything like tea or hot chocolate? Birkenstocks? I believe that is a gun of some sort, like maybe the wood handle thingy that goes in the arm pit.......granola, unfortunately, from my boy sprout hiking days, I know of this, but I try not to eat too much, as I am allergic to oatmeal! I will admit to being born on Pill Hill in Seattle, above Charbucks HQ, which was a sears building at one time. Tulleys as I recall is down there in the old Rainer brewery. Two great building of old, not some drink type establishments that taste absolutely horrible!

Click to expand...

_
*bit2ski*: Touche....nuff said


----------



## blt2ski

Fuzzball, Enjoy the beer and weekend, Let us know how it goes, still about 10:30pm thursday here in the left coast of NA. time for bed frankly, beer is over with for the night...........

I'll have to remember to get a pick of the socks and sandles........There is one in an add for Pemco insurance!


----------



## tdw

blt2ski said:


> Fuzzball, Enjoy the beer and weekend, Let us know how it goes, still about 10:30pm thursday here in the left coast of NA. time for bed frankly, beer is over with for the night...........
> 
> I'll have to remember to get a pick of the socks and sandles........There is one in an add for Pemco insurance!


Well its coming up to 0500 in Sydney, a sliver of waning moon rising in a clear starry sky as dawn approaches. After a few weeks of pretty ordinay weather it looks like we are in for an absolute corker of a weekend. Predicting 10 -15 knots of wind and mostly sunny, temp 50 - 60 fahrenheit. Not bad for winter eh ?

Right now the Wombet is still fast asleep, but as soon as she stirs from her slumber, we'll be on our way.


----------



## tdw

10 - 15 knots my arse. Ha. Barely a puff all weekend. The only things moving near where we moor were really light weight things, mainly without a lump of diesel engine to shift. 

Oh well, never mind. That cockpit locker and the lazarette really did need to be emptied out, repainted and reorganised. Oh yes, and we got the new Rocna shipped and stowed. 

Still and all it was a lovely weekend, we had plenty of food and grog on board, good reading matter and nice music. Company was pretty good as well. (hey she might read this, I'd better behave.)


----------



## SeanRW

tdw said:


> 10 - 15 knots my arse. Ha. Barely a puff all weekend. The only things moving near where we moor were really light weight things, mainly without a lump of diesel engine to shift.  .................


Waaaaa.....it rained here and the 'squitos were out with a vengance. Ohhh how I long for open, bug free water


----------



## blt2ski

Not a lot of wind here either......some rain too. Then again, it was seafair weekend, ie an on the water hydroplane race's, water spectacles of navy ships, blue angels in the air, ie navy fighter planes doing acrobatics all of 18-36" apart, 4-6 at a time no less!

Normal weather for the weekend, lets put it that way!LOL

marty


----------



## tdw

We had a signwriter in the sky...he was trying to write "Come Back to Jesus" but before he had finished the "to" disappeared, then "Come Back" went. I can imagine his reaction, as he looked over his shoulder "Jesus".


----------



## Classic30

tdw said:


> We had a signwriter in the sky...he was trying to write "Come Back to Jesus" but before he had finished the "to" disappeared, then "Come Back" went. I can imagine his reaction, as he looked over his shoulder "Jesus".


Somebody trying to tell you something there, Fuzzy??


----------



## tdw

Hartley18 said:


> Somebody trying to tell you something there, Fuzzy??


What though ? That religion is nowt but a passing puff of smoke ? 

Now be careful...I'd hate to have to move this glorious thread to OffTopic. Paulo would have me beaten up if I did. He's only been a few days and we have damn near trashed the place already.


----------



## blt2ski

Of course is a horse of course, or some such riddle dee dee diddle rhyme of some sort!

I would not expect anything less of a fuzzy wombat to mess the place up whilst I is gone!

So with that, have not gotten any new sailing rags for the month of august, to know what is or is not new. ALtho the Jeanneau 409 I mentioned last month or so, does have some specs at the main jeanneau site, along with what appears to be some sailing.......

Now to wait and see what the rest of the line does......

altho I still am lusting for a sunfast 3200..........


----------



## tdw

Marty, 
Have you seen this vid ?


----------



## blt2ski

I had not seen that vid. Was he using the twin keel boat that was shown early on on the hard? Interesting creature! I know there was 20'ish SF3200's in that race. IIRC there were both single an dh class's for the race out of sf's. 

EIther that one, or the ELan 310/350 would suit me fine. The Archembault 35 is another. They have a 32, off the top of my head I can not remember the specs as I type, it might also work. If the Fiagaro had a few more amenities for the spouse, it might also work. Easy to sail with one or two, fairly quick. Mid 30' range works well here in Puget sound too. Draft is NOT an issue, when the depth sounder is rarely reading, and if it is, it is usually 200-600+ feet!

Need to get one more bid done, two invoices, clean out the dumptwuck, load up some tools for tomorrow, so I can mow some fuzzies!


----------



## PCP

Hello guys , posting from Croatia(zadar). This apartment has an internet conection.

I have already sailed the Elan 380. Tried to catch the 350 but I had dracon sails and the 350 had racing sails. No way 

The guy that owns the 380(is a racer) told me that he had already raced with the 350 and that he had won every time in real time. But his boat had the racing sails out this time because he his going to cruise with the family. Bad luck  I would like to be in the water with both boats with the same sails to really see the difference.

Tomorrow I will go the Salona shipyard to see the new 41 and if I'm lucky after that I´m going to sail the 42.

Guys, the Cigalle is not a centerboarder but a fast deep bulbed keeled ULD aluminum sailboat.

Marty, the boat on the Andrew's movie is a OLEA. The Olea is a twin keel version of Bongo. Twin keel or single keel, both are fast and interesting sailboats.

A good and well designed twin keel has other advantages than a shorter draft for a similar performance 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Thank you for the I will assume brands of the boats, Would also assume a bit later this evening where I am I will look them up via google/yahoo/equal search engine. 

I think for me tho, a SF3200/Elan 310/350 will be the most logical ones to really focus on, as other wise, not sure how to ship here etc, with the dealer being the same for Jeanneau and Elan, that will not be a hard thing to accomplish getting a boat. Granted one hates to pay the local dealer a share, but at times.........better than figuring it all out yourself some times. Have clients that have tried to landscape there yards etc themselves, and somewhere along the line they call me, I have to fix what they screwed up, along with put the rest in correctly, sometimes it costs them more than if they would have had me do everything to begin with! 

Hope you are having a good trip! I have a friend of mine thru local YC coming over to Croatia to charter a boat in a week or so, should be there over at least the first week in Sept. not sure arrival or departure, or the city they are to be sailing out of initially.

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Olea and Bongo*

Thanks Marty,

The Olea and the Bongo are the same boat. The Olea is the twin keel version.

There is a post on this thread about the big Olea, the 44 (post 101).

They have two new boats, the 44 and the 30. The designer is Pierre Rolland, a French NA specialized in fast and racing boats. He used to be a racer

Both boats have been very well welcomed by the French, specially the ones that like fast boats

http://www.olea-composite.com/Download/OLEA.pdf

http://www.olea-composite.com/

www.rolland-archi.com

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*OVNI / Allures*



SeanRW said:


> ....
> 
> Well, Alubat make a few other very interesting (IMO) vessels, specifically the OVNI lineup. I don't know what it is about these vessels that I find the most intriguing but overall they seem to offer a huge number of fantastic features.
> 
> - The interiors have a functional, purposeful look to them without any of the added "bling"
> - The lifting keel (though hated by some) allows for shallow waters or even beaching
> - If you crunch some of the numbers they appear impressive (SA/D 21.5, B/D 36%, DLR 162)
> - A price that while out of reach for some is certainly comparable to some of the cruisers featured in this thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comments anyone ?
> 
> SRW


Sean,

I agree that the OVNIS are interesting boats and they are not slow boats, specially downwind. They are also not very expensive, for aluminum boats.

But I would prefer the Allures. Much better upwind and faster in all points of sail, with a better AVS and reserve stability.

The boat has an aluminum hull, but to keep the weight down has a composite deck. They have been everywhere, including near the poles.










Le grand voyage

StÃ©phane Peyron - official website - la nature Ã* hauteur d'homme - site officiel - biographie - biography - 95 West productions - dans la nature - histoires formidables - Nulle Part Ailleurs - L'Avion - expeditions - livres - extraits video - photo

Allures

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elan 380 test sail*

Has promised, some impressions about the Elan 380 test sail:

The boat was on Portoroz, Slovenia and was a private boat. The owner races the boat but as he is going for vacations, cruising with the family, had taken the racing sails out and had mounted inexpensive dracon sails (full batten anyway).

The cars on the mast are very good and I had no trouble in putting the sail up (by hand) from the cockpit. With those cars, the force needed is about the same on the Bavaria 36, maybe less.

The boat had a 40hp Volvo (Standard 29) engine and had a fast engine cruising speed : About 6.5K at 2000 rpm and easily over 7 if you put just a little bit more rpm (2150).

Unfortunately there was very little wind (5 to 8K) but we had no problem in sailing. Even with such a weak wind the boat can sail to 30º (apparent wind) and make between 5 and 6K. This with cheap sails and without using a geenaker (he had not one). Downwind we sailed at about 3.5, 4.5k, with just 3k of apparent wind showing on the wind instrument. The overall performance was very satisfactory, if not spectacular (as with the Opium 39). This boat can sail with very weak winds, especially if a geenaker is used, and make very good speed.

As I have said in a previous post, the owner gave me very interesting information on the performance of this boat compared with the new 350. With identical sails he says this boat is faster in all points of sail, including downwind. He says that while the 350 "comes out of the water" and starts planning at 9K, this one makes the same at 10K. He says this is an easy 8K sailing boat and that downwind it is easy to get double digit speeds.

The boat had German sheeting (standard) and uses the back winches for controlling the main and the front ones to the genoa. If I wanted (and I would want) they can put the control of the main in on the center of the boat (kind of set up for solo sailing) and I can use the back winches for the genoa, having all commands at hand (they have such a system as standard on the 34ft). But even with the standard set up, this one is a lot better than the one in the Opium 39 (that was designed for a tiller, not for a wheel).

For reefing, all lines (dyneema as standard) come to the cockpit. The boat comes with two automatic reefs and they can mount a third one, with two lines. The owner says that normally he puts the first reef with 20k of wind, which, considering the large sail area, shows that this is a stiff boat.

This boat had a draft of 2.35m, that is too much for my cruising needs, but the standard version has 2.05, that is just fine.

The boat seems to be very well balanced, the cockpit is very agreeable, with the right size for solo sailing and the only negative remark is the absence of a dedicated space for the liferaft. With this boat, for cruising extensively it is necessary to chose the 2 cabin version, to get a good storage space.

I know it already, but I could confirm again, that this boat has a very nice interior. Again it is better to have the 2 cabin, because it has a bigger front bed, not much, but 10cms can make a lot of difference for a big guy.

From the interior the only thing I dislike are the light switches, but I guess I can take them out and have them chromed (they are plastic, but they also look like cheap plastic ).

The boat as a small diesel and water tankage (110L and 250L) but they are happy to put more. After checking it seems easy to get 200L of diesel and 350L of water, and that for this kind of boat is good.

Overall it is a very nice boat and one that is going to stay on my short list. The Dealer has come expressly from Zagreb (the capital of Croatia) and made 250km for being present on this test sail. He brought his wife, a lovely girl, to serve as translator. They were both very nice people. If I chose an Elan I will buy from him. He does not know much about sailing (contrary to the boat owner that was a very good sailor) but I am quite sure I will get from him a boat the way I want it at a very good price (we talked about prices and he said to me that the first offer he had made to me was just that...a first offer ).

I end up paying beers to everybody and that was the end of a very pleasant morning. As I have said, all very nice people that I would have loved to meet, even if I had not the pleasure to sail the boat.

My soon also sailed the boat and even if he don't find any fun in sailing with less than 20k , he loved the boat, specially the outside looks and the interior.

Some photos of the 380 and from the new 350. If someone is interested I can also post a photo of the new 44 (cruising line).




































Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> Thanks Marty,
> 
> The Olea and the Bongo are the same boat. The Olea is the twin keel version.
> 
> There is a post on this thread about the big Olea, the 44 (post 101).


Thank you for all your interesting posts!
Do you know prices for the Oleas?


----------



## tdw

Very nice indeed Paulo. Extremely handsome boat thats for sure.

Thanks for the post. Looks like you are enjoying yourself.

Cheers mate

Andrew


----------



## PCP

Thanks guys 

Myocean, I had that information, but at home. I am in Croatia and leaving the Zadar apartment (and the internet) for going sailing. So no more internet for a while.

But if I recall correctly they are not very expensive boats. For sure, they will cost more than an Oceanis or a Jeanneau, but probably just a little bit more expensive than a Benetau First 45 (Olea 44).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## waynecollett

how would you refit out an old boat, back to its original or modern


----------



## blt2ski

Nobody has seen or heard of an interesting boat lately?!?!?!?!?!

Rumour has it Catalina has a 355 or some such thing coming out to replace a model or two.......


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350 test*

Hey Guys, still in Croatia, about to leave the Dufour 425. Someone has sent this to me:






That's a nice video made by the guys that have tested the 350 Elan for the Yachtingworld Magazine. I have read the test (I believe that I had mentioned before) and they only say nice things about the boat

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elan 380 interior*



tdw said:


> Very nice indeed Paulo. Extremely handsome boat thats for sure.


That's easy to make a fast boat with nice looks. Normally they have not so good looking interiors.

Look at the 380 interior :





That's a practical and cozy interior

Cheers

Paulo


----------



## aarhus

Hi Paulo,

I have been following this thread since joining earlier this year... Fun!

I was volunteering at a boat show here in Aarhus, and was impressed by a Danish boat: the Dragonfly. I saw the 35 version, but they also make a 28 in both "sport" and I guess they'd call it "family" versions. They are trimarans; according to the guy at the show they can easily make 20 knots, more if you know the boat, and sure enough there's a few YouTube videos of these things flying around. A really smart thing is that the pontoons can be tucked in so that you end up under 3m for berthing or transporting.

Check them out; Dragonfly Trimarans by Quorning Boats of Denmark | welcome

Cheers


----------



## PCP

*Dragonfly*

Welcome aarhus

Well, I don't need to check them out .I know them well. Been inside of a 35ft and even if it is a little cramped I would gladly live a Spartan cruising live to have the pleasure of sailing one of those . Unfortunately they cost more than 400 000 € and even a used one will cost more than 300 000 € .

That's funny because today I was talking to a friend of mine, asking him to invite me for some downwind rides on strong winds to perfect my technique of raising solo a spinnaker (he is quite good at it) and soon we were talking about a 35 ft Dagonfly. He said to me that he felt miserably doing 8k under spinnaker on his 27ft when a 35 Dragonfly passed nearby doing over 20K. And the Dragonfly was not even flying a spinnaker  (windy afternoon). He said that the only consolation was that the Dragonfly was faster than a lot of big motorboats

Dragonfly Trimarans by Quorning Boats of Denmark | Film & video Film and Video

Dragonfly Trimarans by Quorning Boats of Denmark | DRAGONFLY 35 Presentation



























































Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

There is something a bit seriously cool about the Dragonfly. As you say Paulo, they are somewhat cramped downstairs, particularly when compared to a similar sized cat but they look good, appear to go like a demon and the collapsable training wheels would be a great advantage.

Sorry for my lack of participation of late. We've abandoned the Great Womboat Hunt for 2010 and are now rushing around getting the old girl ready for a new year cruise. Be back into it shortly.


----------



## blt2ski

That is one serious looking tri! I think I could handle training wheels if I could get one of them. Way better looking than the cats around town!

Marty


----------



## slap

*Dragonfly 35*

One neat thing about the Dragonfly 35 is that you cat fit a sea kayak inside each of the amas. I've already got the sea kayak, so all I need is the boat.


----------



## myocean

Yes, Dragonfly is a really great boat. Incredibly fast!
The disadvantage from my point of view is that you have relatively little space inside (about the size of a 30 foot boat) compared for such a high price. Too small for long family trips.
By they way: The first Pogo 12.50 photos are not online on the pogostructures website.
Ulf


----------



## PCP

*On design - Cats and Trimarans*



blt2ski said:


> That is one serious looking tri! I think I could handle training wheels if I could get one of them. Way better looking than the cats around town!
> 
> Marty


There is a significant difference between a stability curve of a tri and the one of a cat.

Basically when a small cat (less than 50ft) starts to lift its amas, there is very little stability left and you can capsize really fast. In a tri it is normal to sail with an ama out of the water and when the central body starts to lift you have much more time to let go the sails.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 12.50*



myocean said:


> Yes, Dragonfly is a really great boat. Incredibly fast!
> The disadvantage from my point of view is that you have relatively little space inside (about the size of a 30 foot boat) compared for such a high price. Too small for long family trips.
> By they way: The first Pogo 12.50 photos are not online on the pogostructures website.
> Ulf


Yes, I agree with you. For more extensive cruising is strictly a two person boat and the price... well, there are rich peole with good taste

By comparison the Pogo 12.50 price is low :

Chantier naval STRUCTURES, constructeur des voiliers POGO (site officiel) :: STRUCTURES Shipyard, construction of sailing boat POGO (Oficial website) | Pogo 10.50, Pogo 12.50, Pogo 40s2, Pogo 50, Pogo 30

I believe you can have one fully equipped one for about 250 000 euros, including 20% VAT (European tax.)

Regarding the boat, the interior looks better than what I expected. My only reserves are about the single tiller and the absence of back-stay (and even if the price seems fair it is probably a bit too much for me). And what about the doors? This one was supposed to have doors. I don't see any.

I will be at the Paris boat show to see it better

And here are the photos you mentioned (the boat is beautiful).










































Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> And what about the doors? This one was supposed to have doors. I don't see any.


As far as I understood there is ONE door and that is the door to the toilet.



PCP said:


> I will be at the Paris boat show to see it better


Please don't be disappointed. Pogostructures has told me

"We sell our boats with a price near the industrials boats but build with hand. To do it we do direct selling, no advertising, a just 2 boat show : Paris boat show without boat (just an office) and the on water La Rochelle boat show with our boats. So the only exhibition where the Pogo12.50 will be viewable is La Rochelle in September."

Ulf


----------



## bb74

myocean said:


> As far as I understood there is ONE door and that is the door to the toilet.
> 
> Please don't be disappointed. Pogostructures has told me
> 
> "We sell our boats with a price near the industrials boats but build with hand. To do it we do direct selling, no advertising, a just 2 boat show : Paris boat show without boat (just an office) and the on water La Rochelle boat show with our boats. So the only exhibition where the Pogo12.50 will be viewable is La Rochelle in September."
> 
> Ulf


I can confirm that. Pogo will not have a real boat on show in Paris. They will however invite you for a free weekend in Benodet to take a walk thruthe factory, take a sea trial for a couple of hours, and have a long discussion about the design principles and the builders. Very engaging folks but you won't get a walk around in Paris like you can expect with Elan, X, Jboats, Benny, Jeanneau, etc, etc.

The 40 with the swing keel looks near ideal if a bit large for a 3-6 month "sabbatical". For the moment, I'm hooked on the 10.50, but the 40 has that extra space I've been looking for with all the same amenities of the 35... "Just" another 65K€ on the bill.... ouch....


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> ..
> Do you know prices for the Oleas?


Now that I am at home and have found the magazine I can

The Oléa 44 was tested by voile magazine (mars edition, you can buy it online, they have a digital version) and the price they have mentioned was 320 000 euros for a naked boat and 360 000 for the tested boat (prices with French Vat).

Voile Magazine|Buy Single Issues | Zinio Digital Magazines and Books


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


>


Now those are about the size of hull windows that could satisfy me....

Don't like the galley though...


----------



## sailingdog

Paulo-

First, the catamaran does not have AMAS...the AMAS are the smaller outrigger hulls on a TRIMARAN or PROA. A Catamaran has two HULLS.

When you're in a cruising size catamaran, you really should never be flying a hull. IF you are flying a hull in a cruising sized catamaran, regardless of LOA, you're being an idiot and deserve what you get.

Not all trimarans are designed to fly an ama. Many cruising designs, including my Telstar 28, are designed to sail with all three hulls in the water normally. In fact, depending on what the design is, flying an ama may be a warning sign of the boat being overpowered.



PCP said:


> There is a significant difference between a stability curve of a tri and the one of a cat.
> 
> Basically when a small cat (less than 50ft) starts to lift its amas, there is very little stability left and you can capsize really fast. In a tri it is normal to sail with an ama out of the water and when the central body starts to lift you have much more time to let go the sails.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


----------



## Classic30

tdw said:


> Now those are about the size of hull windows that could satisfy me....
> 
> Don't like the galley though...


..not to mention ZERO hand-holds and sharp corners... 

I dunno.. what is WITH designers these days?? They expect people to move around a sailing boat under sail without anything to hang on to?

FWIW there's a nice write-up of the new Hanse in the latest Cruising Helmsman magazine.


----------



## PCP

*Cruising trimarans*



sailingdog said:


> Paulo-
> 
> First, the catamaran does not have AMAS...the AMAS are the smaller outrigger hulls on a TRIMARAN or PROA. A Catamaran has two HULLS.
> .


Sorry about my bad Englhish. In all other languages that I speack there are not a different name for the hulls of a multihull (tri or cat), so I have assumed that the amas where the hulls of a multihull. Thanks for the correction.



sailingdog said:


> When you're in a cruising size catamaran, you really should never be flying a hull. IF you are flying a hull in a cruising sized catamaran, regardless of LOA, you're being an idiot and deserve what you get.
> 
> Not all trimarans are designed to fly an ama. Many cruising designs, including my Telstar 28, are designed to sail with all three hulls in the water normally. In fact, depending on what the design is, flying an ama may be a warning sign of the boat being overpowered.


I believe you have misunderstood me. I have said:

"There is a significant difference between a stability curve of a tri and the one of a cat.
Basically when a small cat (less than 50ft) starts to lift its amas, there is very little stability left and you can capsize really fast. In a tri it is normal to sail with an ama out of the water and when the central body starts to lift you have much more time to let go the sails." 

And I believe that this is correct. It is out of the scope of this thread but if you want to discuss the differences in a stability curve between a cat and a tri you can open a thread about it and I will post some stability curves.

What I mean is that when a cruising cat lifts a hull, you are in trouble. I am not talking about doing it purposely, but sometimes it happens (as in the recent Australian accident). When it starts to happen you have little time to correrct the situation.

About the trimarans, when I have said that it is normal to sail with an hull out of the water, I mean that in the generality of the trimarans, that is not a dangerous situation (unlike the cruising cats) because you still have plenty of reserve stability.

Even huge and heavy trimarsns can sail safely with an ama out of the water. Here you have some pictures, including one from a Telestar:










But I was referring mostly to fast cruising trimarans (why sailors would want a boat that has less interior space than a monohull and is more expensive if it is not faster?) and for those it is normal to raise a ama even without much wind, some with weak wind.

Here you have photos of most of the cruising trimarans on the market, at least the ones I know :










Regards

Paulol


----------



## sailingdog

Paulo- All of the last set of photos are TRIMARANS, not Catamarans. 

Yes, it is true that a catamaran that has a hull flying is on the border of capsizing, since it often takes very little additional wind to flip one that is already flying a hull. *However, as I said, any sailor that has gotten into the position where they are flying a hull on a cruising catamaran, is doing something really, really wrong*.

While flying an ama isn't as dangerous as flying a hull on a catamaran, it is usually a warning sign that the boat is overpowered. A majority of the photos of trimarans you have are of primarily two brands-quorning dragonflies and farrier-based Corsairs. I'm not surprised that these are flying an ama, as they are designed to do so... and even at rest, some of these designs will generally have one of the amas out of the water a tiny bit.

I'd point out that the photo of the Telstar 28 is one that Tony took for a magazine article about the boat and the boat in question is a tall-rig version that is completely unloaded-I have seen the entire photo set from the photo shoot in question. It doesn't have almost any of the tools, supplies or equipment that would normally be aboard a Telstar equipped for cruising-and is probably significantly lighter. I'd also point out that the ama is still touching the water, it's high, but still touching. If it were loaded as a normal cruising boat would be, it would have all three hulls firmly in the water.


----------



## PCP

sailingdog said:


> Paulo- All of the last set of photos are TRIMARANS, not Catamarans.


Ok! You have got me . I am going to edit it.


sailingdog said:


> ... A majority of the photos of trimarans you have are of primarily two brands-quorning dragonflies and farrier-based Corsairs. I'm not surprised that these are flying an ama, as they are designed to do so... and even at rest, some of these designs will generally have one of the amas out of the water a tiny bit.
> ...


There several other brands on the photos, like the Trimax, the Seaon, or the Challenge and it could have been more if I could have found photos or remember the names. There are several interesting fast cruising trimarans on the European market even if the production is very limited. All of them are designed to be fast and to fly one hull.

Sailingdog, I have seen your informed comments about a Corsair 24 on other thread. I would like to have your colaboration on this thread. I am interested in the Corsair 37. Do you know the boat? Have been inside one or sailed one?
Can you post about it?

The boat is not expensive, if we compare it to a Dragonfly 35, but I have heard a lot of negative comments about it and its realiability.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## sailingdog

Paulo—

IIRC, the Corsair 37 is just a slightly longer version of what used to be the Corsair 36. IIRC, the Corsair 36, which was introduced in 2003 and the following Corsair 37 were NOT designed by Ian Farrier. While they may use the Farrier designed folding system, and based on designs by Ian Farrier, they are not Farrier designs. I haven't sailed on the 37, as it is a fairly recent design and I haven't seen one in person either. 

The recent Corsairs have been plagued with some quality control issues, since they moved production off-shore to Vietnam. Of course, quality control has slowly become more and more of an issue since Ian Farrier and Corsair Marine parted ways back in 2000 or so. IIRC, his decision to leave had a lot to do with them removing him from having complete say over the quality and methods used in production. He also revoked permission for Corsair marine to use his name in their materials and for their boats... which is why the Corsair 28/31 are now C-28/31 rather than the previous F-28/31 etc. 

Dragonfly has amazing fit and finish, probably the best of the larger production trimaran manufacturers. The Dragonflies are pretty solid and seaworthy boats in my experience. There have been some pretty well-known failures, but IIRC, most were due to operator error. 

As for trimarans designed to fly a hull... these are generally going to be racing designs, not cruising designs. Boats that are designed to fly a hull have significantly lower cargo carrying capacity than ones that generally have all three hulls in the water. It stands to reason that ones that are primarily designed as cruisers, will tend to have three hulls in the water and higher payload capacities.


----------



## PCP

*Corsair 37 - Farrier 39*



sailingdog said:


> Paulo-
> 
> IIRC, the Corsair 37 is just a slightly longer version of what used to be the Corsair 36. IIRC, the Corsair 36, which was introduced in 2003 and the following Corsair 37 were NOT designed by Ian Farrier. While they may use the Farrier designed folding system, and based on designs by Ian Farrier, they are not Farrier designs. I haven't sailed on the 37, as it is a fairly recent design and I haven't seen one in person either.
> 
> The recent Corsairs have been plagued with some quality control issues, since they moved production off-shore to Vietnam. Of course, quality control has slowly become more and more of an issue since Ian Farrier and Corsair Marine parted ways back in 2000 or so. IIRC, his decision to leave had a lot to do with them removing him from having complete say over the quality and methods used in production. He also revoked permission for Corsair marine to use his name in their materials and for their boats... which is why the Corsair 28/31 are now C-28/31 rather than the previous F-28/31 etc.
> 
> Dragonfly has amazing fit and finish, probably the best of the larger production trimaran manufacturers. The Dragonflies are pretty solid and seaworthy boats in my experience. There have been some pretty well-known failures, but IIRC, most were due to operator error.
> 
> As for trimarans designed to fly a hull... these are generally going to be racing designs, not cruising designs. Boats that are designed to fly a hull have significantly lower cargo carrying capacity than ones that generally have all three hulls in the water. It stands to reason that ones that are primarily designed as cruisers, will tend to have three hulls in the water and higher payload capacities.


Thanks for the information

I know that the 37 is basically the 36ft. Some years back, before the chrisis, I exchange some e-mails with Ian Farrier about the Corsair 36 and the Farrier 39.

Basically I wanted to know what where the reasons that lead him not to allow to call the Corsair 36 a Farrier design and what where is main concerns about the boat (I was interested in the corsair 36). I was also interested in the Farrier 39 and wanted to know is recommendations about builders and prices of designs.

He was very straightforward. If I remember correctly (I have lost those e-mails) the main divergences regarding the 36 had to do with the linking of the amas to the main hull. Regarding the 39, that is a very nice boat, with sufficient space for my needs, after talking with some builders, it turned out that the boat would end up to be more expensive than my budget and the more experienced recommended builders were also far away (Canada).

The New F-39
http://www.f-boat.com/pdf/F-39AftCabinProfile.pdf
http://www.f-boat.com/pdf/F-39interior.pdf

I have also tried to see if my budget was enough for a Challenge 37 (it is not for a Dragonfly 35 that is the more expensive of them all), but I have given up. They are all too expensive for me. There is a big difference in price between one of those and for instance, a Pogo 10.50, that offers more interior space and only a slightly poorer performance.

Fotos de barco Voiliers Challenge 37-40 de Vela trimarã - Galeria
Naval Force 3 - Accueil

I don't agree with you when you say that :"As for trimarans designed to fly a hull... these are generally going to be racing designs, not cruising designs."

Ian Farrier describes the 36 as *"a large, ocean going, cruising multihull" and as "cruising orientated"* and the 39 as "The perfect high performance cruiser". As you know a Farrier 36 has already circumnavigated, as well as a smaller Corsair.

Most Dragonflies are used for cruising and there is even a Challenge 37 (or 33?) in Charter service.

I certainly agree with you when you say: "Boats that are designed to fly a hull have significantly lower cargo carrying capacity than ones that generally have all three hulls in the water." 

But the main reason a sailor would buy a cruising trimaran is for sailing and cruising faster than in a monohull and for that you need a fast design and a light boat, that will fly a hull.

If you need a bigger cruising payload, well, you just need a bigger trimaram (for me the 39 would be enough). The real problem is the cost

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New Farr designed Bavaria 40*

Back on Pag.10, Posts 96 and 99 we talked about the New Farr designed 40ft Bavaria.

Here are the first pictures:










*Comments please!!*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

The Bavaria is probably heavy and slow, isn't it? 

Here a major disadvantage my wife found for the Pogo 12.50:
If you are on a long trip with kids you will probably have no sex at all anymore because of missing doors ;-)

Ulf


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> *Comments please!!*
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


This looks nice, but as all(?) Bavarias is probably even heavy and slow, isn't it?

Here a major disadvantage my wife found for the Pogo 12.50:
If you are on a long trip with kids you will probably have no sex at all anymore because of the missing doors ;-)

Ulf


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 40*

Ulf, this is not a boat to compare with the Pogo

This is a traditional cruiser and as so I believe that if correctly equipped it is not going to be a slow boat. I mean the boat has a deep keel and can have as options some of the best sails and equipment on the market.

This sails are an option that comes with the MDS mast car system:
ElvstrÃ¸m Sails - EPEX Technology
Sail Buyers Guide: Selden Mast

Their are mounted on a conventional mast with more sail area.

The previous 40ft was not a slow boat (with 18K wind and 2m waves, with a furler mast it could make 8k at 90º) and I believe this one is going to be faster.

On one of the pictures you can see that the new boat can point very well and that it seems to go fast in a breeze, even with a furling mast.

We can see also that the boat has 6 winches (that can be bigger as an option) and that means probably that it comes with a German sheeting system. That means that you can control the boom from the wheel. You can see also that the boat has no traveler and use the system that today is more vulgar on the cruising boats.

I believe that choice is connected with the use of German sheeting: It would not make sense to control the boom from the wheel but having to go forward to adjust the traveler.

I don't like the position of the second lateral winch. Too forward. What use have to be able to control the boom from the wheel if you have to go forward to control the Genoa? Perhaps they will move it back if you ask (I don't know if it is possible).








Regards

Paulo


----------



## Kenif

Paulo

Comments as requested.
First attempt at critiquing boat.

All points from layman's perspective:

Cockpit appears large enough for entertaining the freeloaders on an afternoon soiree. Benches also appear large enough to sleep on. Not sure about drainage in big seas and the durability of the transom when flooded.
The transom adds another dimension and would be of great benefit for the family man.
Dodger and Bimini can be fitted which are almost mandatory for sailing down under.

very beamy and looks awkward to the eye not too sure if I like the asthetics.

No traveller does open up the cockpit but I do not have enough experience to comment on this and the sail plan.

The interior layout looks a little too 'ikea' for my tastes and I am concerned about durability.

It may suffer from lack of handholds etc but could be just the pictures.

The interior has good natural light and ventilation.

At the right price yes but others I prefer.


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria - On design - stability*

Thanks!

Regarding the interior, I could not agree more. Definitively IKEA type. The Germans are probably great IKEA fans because Hanses also have the same kind of interiors .

But one thing is style, another is quality and if in what regards design the French and Italians are much better I am not so sure about quality. I have chartered recently a new Dufour 425 ( Dufours are the most expensive of all big production French boats and arguably the ones with better overall quality) and my wife and my daughter complained about the quality of the interior (not the design) and about the fragility. They were comparing it with the one from our old boat (a 2003 Bavaria) and they were not convinced by the Dufour quality.

Regarding handholds, have you saw the long steel bar that goes from one side of the galley to the other? And the support and handhold on the opposite side, on the back of the seat? They look solid and there are not many (if any) production boat that have a perfect place to clip your harness to fix you properly while you cook on the wrong tack. Of course this is the kind of thing you can only be sure inside the boat, I mean adequate handholds.

Regarding beam, this is a typical modern cruiser: It has 3.99m, about the same as the new jeanneau 409 and Dufour 405, only 8cm more than Oceanis 40 and less 4cm than the Hanse 400 and much less than a Pogo .

Were you can find differences are in weight and Ballast/Displacement ratios. Typically the French boats are lighter and have a poorer Ball/Displ ratio.
The Jeanneau 409 weights 7450kg and has a B/D of 0.30; The Oceanis 40 weights 8260kg, B/D of 0.26; The Dufour 405, 8080kg, B/D 0.29; The Hanse 400, 8400kg, B/D 0.32 and the Bavaria weights 9000kg and has a B/D of 0.31.

All boats have similar standard drafts (from 2.03 to 2.1m) with the exception of the Oceanis that has only 1.9m. All boats have similar keels with bulbs.

This means that the GZ curves ( length of the arm) should not be very different (with the exception of the one from the Oceanis that has less beam and has a remarkably worst B/D and has less draft). It means also that the ones from the Bavaria and Hanse should be the better ones.

With a better GZ curve and more weight, the Hanse and the Bavaria will have an overall better stability and more capacity to carry sails (the righting moment is obtained multiplying the GZ in each point of heel by the boat displacement). To be fair, l had to say that the Hanse can be made in Epoxy (expensive option) and then its weight goes down to 7900kg giving it an even better overall stability.

All the boats have about the same sail area ( Jeanneau 78m2, Dufour80m2, Oceanis 78,4, Bavaria 81m2, with the exception of Hanse that carries more (86,4 m2). Some boats, like the Jeanneau or Bavaria (I don't know about Dufour) when using a conventional rig (not a furler main) can have performance sails with more area. On the Jeanneau that area goes from 78 to 93m2, I believe that you will have a similar difference on Bavaria and probably Dufour (between a boat with a Furler main and a conventional rig with performance sails).

The French boats come only with four winches and I believe that in most cases you cannot mount two extra winches, so you cannot have German sheeting and control the main from the wheel, but you have a traveler.

All this would mean that Bavaria would be the slower boat? Yes with light winds (if the Geenaker for the Bavaria is not bigger than the ones of the other boats) because the boat is heavier and carries not much more sail than the other boats, but with medium winds it will probably be faster than all the French boats.

He can carry more sail and more power without the need to reef. In medium or strong winds the Bavaria (with good sails) should be a close match to the Hanse, and the Hanse is a fast boat. It should also be more seaworthy (Stability and equipment), than the French boats. With bad weather and waves, the extra power will also be very useful.

All boats are compromises, and the Bavaria chose to have a more conventional boat with a good stability and a huge choice of options. The Bavaria is also the less expensive but you better take into account the options you will want, because it is possible to have more 40% of the boat price in options and extras. That's what you pay for premium quality (sails, cars, winches and so on). A well equipped a Bavaria can be a good boat, a boat that will not only sail well in weak or average winds, but you have to pay for it. 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## sailingdog

PCP—

If you're really looking for a nice cruising trimaran, it might be wise to check out the Hammerhead 34, which is a Chris White design. When I spoke to him earlier this year, he said that a custom built one was about $100,000 all up.


----------



## PCP

*Hammerhead 34 - Chris white - Trimax*

That seems too good to be true

The boat is not big enough for my needs but I guess that I could ask him a modified bigger version, I have asked about builders and prices for the 34.

HAMMERHEAD 34 - ChrisWhiteDesigns' Photos | SmugMug

The boat is not properly beautiful, but looks functional and effective and at that price I will be able to accept some compromises










I am also asking the prices of the new Trimax, a 35.5ft boat (1080).

This one I do really find beautiful. They say the boat, in the right conditions can do over 25K and that cruising 300 miles a day is easy and 400 miles possible

Trimaran trimax - welcome










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 40*

I have found some more pictures of the Bavaria 40. These ones with the performance sails I was talking about on a previous post. They look great. These ones are mounted in a furling mast and have vertical battens. The boat can have a conventional rig with one line reefing and in that case the main sail will be bigger.

















Also found a picture with other wood option. It looks better (I hate that clear wood that they have used on the first photos).










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 32 Rs - J 97 - Elan 310 - Archimbault 31 comparative test*

Hey Marty, this one is for you

What would you say of a comparative boat test between some of the hottest 32ft on the market? All at the same time on the water

Let's say the Dehler 32 Rs, the J 97, the Elan 310 and the Archimbault 31?

Well, you can see the *video* from the test. You are not going to understand much of what they say, but the images speak for themselves. The Elan has a great interior and it seems the one more fit for cruising.
YACHT-Vergleich Performance Cruiser I: Segeleigenschaften - YACHT: YACHT tv
YACHT-Vergleich Performance-Cruiser II: - YACHT: YACHT tv

Regards

Paulo


----------



## sailingdog

He has a Hammerhead 54 as well, but it is a bit bigger than most would want... really pretty and silly fast...












PCP said:


> That seems too good to be true
> 
> The boat is not big enough for my needs but I guess that I could ask him a modified bigger version, I have asked about builders and prices for the 34.
> 
> HAMMERHEAD 34 - ChrisWhiteDesigns' Photos | SmugMug
> 
> The boat is not properly beautiful, but looks functional and effective and at that price I will be able to accept some compromises


----------



## COOL

PCP said:


> What would you say of a comparative boat test between some of the hottest 32ft on the market? All at the same time on the water
> 
> Let's say the Dehler 32 Rs, the J 97, the Elan 310 and the Archimbault 31?


I would like to see that, with the First 30 and Jeaneau 3200 joining the fray.


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

I will have to look at that tonight when I have a bit more time, just getting up, time for work! 

I'd agree with Cool tho, add the 1st 30 and sf3200, what a show down! or maybe even the Figaro II...........

Marty


----------



## blt2ski

I looked at the upper link all the way thru, the 2nd one about half. The boat with the wheel that went from far port, to center, to starboard, Elan? Going with the color, chines, An elan rep talking with the 2nd interior and it going from the wheel to the inside which looked Elan'ish to me. 

Interesting concept, I wish I could get the words translated somehow.

ALL of them frankly, look like they hit the mark for who would buy any of the above 4 boats.

marty


----------



## PCP

*Hammerhead 54*



sailingdog said:


> He has a Hammerhead 54 as well, but it is a bit bigger than most would want... really pretty and silly fast...


Yes, that seems to be a very good boat even if I still don't really like the aesthetics. The interior is perfect and that would suit me, but I doubt that the cost would be inside my budget.

Hammerhead 54 - ChrisWhiteDesigns' Photos | SmugMug

Anyway even if the price was, you could not have one of those in the med. I mean you could but you have to be rich 
Here for anything bigger than 14m you pay a real fortune to be on a marina or on a quay of some nice and remote island and that one is not a folding model, so you would pay the double everywhere, and we are talking about the double of probably around 120 euros or more.

I don't stay much in marinas, but I like the ambiance of old small towns with a quay...and you need to go there for water and electricity, at least once in a week.... and pay 240 euros or more for a nice night in town is just out of my scheme .

But I agree that is a very nice boat to cruise extensively on remote places and probably, contrary to most cruising cats, it should be a very fast and agreeable boat to sail.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

COOL said:


> I would like to see that, with the First 30 and Jeaneau 3200 joining the fray.


You want it all eh!!!

It is just fantastic that they can put so many boats in the water at the same time

If you want the complete test, they sell it on line.

They have also tested the Jeanneau Sunfast 32 back in 2007, when the boat was just a prototype:

YACHT: Tests online A-Z

And they have also tested recently the First 30:

Die neue First 30 im Exklusiv-Test - YACHT: YACHT tv

The First 30 is a very interesting boat and the one that offers the best performance for its price. It is a very modern design (Juan K.) I only wished that the First 40 (Farr) was designed the same way.

The Elan 31 is the one that offers the best compromise between racing and cruising at a price that is superior to the First, but less than the others.

The Jeanneau is the best for ocean racing (It was designed with that in mind) and it is a fast boat in real time, put I believe too penalized on rating racing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> ... The boat with the wheel that went from far port, to center, to starboard, Elan? Going with the color, chines, An elan rep talking with the 2nd interior and it going from the wheel to the inside which looked Elan'ish to me.
> 
> Interesting concept, I wish I could get the words translated somehow.
> 
> ...
> 
> marty


Yes, that's the Elan. I agree, that is very nice and very practical...and you get ride of the two wheels set up.

I can't wait for them to bring the concept to the bigger boats. I would love to see a 380 with that wheel

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*RM 1060 first photos*

On pag 8, post 77 we talked about the RM 1060. The drawings were nice but sometimes reallity is not as attractive as the drawings.

Not in this case. The boat seems even nicer than in the drawings.

It is so nice that I am tented to think: Do I really need a bigger boat?


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 41*

Another *very* interesting boat on its way to production:

The new Dehler 41.

Hanse (the new owner of Dehler) had said that in the future Hanse would produce the big boats and Dehler only the smaller boats (35 and less). I am very happy that they have changed politics or have stretched that lower limit. The 41 looks just great and I can only hope that mass production techniques and extensive robotic use (introduced by Hanse) can make it an affordable boat.

"The research process by the yard about tooling, interior layouts, equipment and modern and effective building processes is not completely finished yet, but this boat will not only be competitive on the water in both racing and cruising, it will be competitive in its pricing as well. "



















My Sailing: A new Dehler 41 is shaping up

Dehler Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Nordship 36 movie*

Take a look how the Nordship 36 sails. This is a fast boat for a 36DS:

http://www.yacht.de/yo/yo_news/show.php3?id=9437&nodeid=294

One thing is to say, other is to see it . I believe this boat is on the same Halberg-Rassy and Najad, not only in what concerns quality but also in what concerns speed. Unfortunately it is also on the same league in what concerns price .

And the new Najad and Halberg-Rassy are not slow boats, if we compare them with older oceangoing cruising boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Semi latest on the Jeanneau 409
New Sun Odyssey 409 Gets Early Seal of Approval

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409*

I did not forget the 409 . I was just waiting for the release of the interior pictures. No luck, but if they are like the artist's designs, they will be great, the best on this class, in my opinion.

As you have said, the boat was selected to compete for this year best European boat and that means something (their are chosen and voted by boat reporters).

The boat has very good cruising characteristics (big tankage), it will be fast (depending of the choice of sails/rig), it seems to have a good hull, is designed to be easily handed and it is a relatively stiff boat, with a Ballast/displacement of 0,30. In that class only the new Bavaria 40 and the Hanse 400 have a better ratio (0.31 and 0.32).

I believe this boat is going to smoke the Oceanis 40 (that has a B/D ratio of only 0,26). This means that this boat can carry more sail (and it will specially on the performance sails and rig option) and with that big tankage and nice interior will be a good contender for the last boat of the year, the more expensive Dufour 405 that as also a nice interior and a B/D of 0,29.

The Bavaria and the Hanse bet on a slightly different direction, with a superior B/D ratio and with a more sportive rig (if you chose the right options) they offer a superior stability and a more oceangoing boat.

The new jeanneau will be a perfect cruising boat for the ones that want a relatively fast and uncomplicated cruising boat with a good tankage and a very good interior....and I believe that includes almost all cruisers. I believe the boat is going to be a success .

For me, just give me the Hanse (or even the Bavaria) with the tankage and the Jeanneau's interior at the Bavaria price and I will probably not resist to that offer.

Sun Odyssey 409 - fast and easy to handle -- boot Trade Fair



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

Another very nice one is the Luffe 40.04 - just 6 tons and superb quality and comfort.

http://www.luffe.com/imgcache/Segeln_Luffe39_153.640X426.jpg

Probably quite fast...


----------



## PCP

*Luffe 40.04*

I agree. The Luffe 40.04 (as most of the Luffe : I have already posted about a luffe, the 43DS, on pag 12, post 112) is one of the prettiest boats around and it is not only very nice, but it is also very fast. The 40.04 is as fast as the 43, and the 43 *is fast*.

I know that not only by the race results (the Luffe 40.04 is one of the main contender on the Nordic races) but because I have test sailed that boat, four or five years ago when it came to the market. And I mean that one, the one that is on the photos (with 3D sails). That one is (or was) the personal boat of Oluf Jorgensen, the owner of the shipyard (and the boat designer). He is the one at the wheel.

As a cruising boat the Luffe has the advantages of having very good and very beautiful interiors, to have a very nice motion through the water but also some disadvantages: It heels a lot (because it is a lot narrower than the typical 40ft cruiser racer), I mean, it heels to the position that is on the photos and then stays there, rock solid; it has the interior dimensions and the weight of a 36/Ft boat and has reduced tankage (160L water- 90L Diesel).

As other positive points: it needs a lot less sail area to go at the same speed or faster than the other 40ft cruiser racers (more manageable rig), it can have an integrated self-tacking jib and its keel and stays are fixed to a inner TBS steel frame, molded to the hull. This permits a very light and very strong boat.

The boat has already a Ballast/Displacement of 40% but if you want a stiffer boat (for cruising) they can put more 200kg ballast (it is not a problem with the forces being distributed to the hull by that steel grid). They can also modify the boat to some extent to your needs.

The boat is a bit more expensive than an Elan 410 or a Salona 41, but I think it deserves the money it costs. You can see where it was spent.

About speed, here you have one Luffe 40.04 sailing downwind with a main sail with one reef and just a small jib doing 13 K. The boat seems very stable and very well balanced. I wonder what would have been the speed under main and spinnaker?














<O>

















































Regards

Paulo


----------



## Classic30

Finally!! A go-fast racer someone actually put some thought into - with usable storage below and adequate hand-holds!  

Looks good, Paulo! ..but I bet they'd never be for sale over here...


----------



## PCP

Hartley18 said:


> ,,,,
> 
> Looks good, Paulo! ..but I bet they'd never be for sale over here...


They don't work that way.

Luffe has no dealers. If I buy one I will be almost on the same position as an American buyer. The shipyard is thousands of km away and if the boat has any problem under warranty they would have to send a technician and contract a local shipyard to do the work under their supervision.

Only the transport will be more expensive, but you can always pick the boat at the shipyard and sail it home.

The boats can only be sold at those prices because they don't advertise them they don't go to boat shows and they don't have dealers. They can cut the dealer share and the share for publicity (30%?).

People buy them because they are built one by one as art works, with care and love and therefore problems are minimized. I have been on several boat shipyards (5 or 6) and I can tell you I have never saw anything like their own.

It is so "clean" that you can eat on the floor

They have also one of the best values on the used market. Just google it and you can find used Luffe boats at very high prices.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*First 40*

Guys, I would like to call your attention to a boat that all of you know

No, I am no going senile it is just that what makes a boat interesting is not only its merits but also its price.

The Beneteau First 40 is interesting by its own qualities but now it is been offered in a new version (CR) at a price that is hard to resist. To give you an idea, the price would not be faraway from the one from a Bavaria 40 fully equipped and at least 40 000 euros less than the other European cruiser racers (Dufour, Elan, Salona) and about the same than a 380 Elan. And, off course, this boat is quick.

As everybody know, on its really big first regatta he won, not less than its class at the Sydney Hobart and after that the boat as won many important races. Not that I am much interested in racing, but I certainly want a fast and enjoyable boat to sail.

That's true that the First 40 as the less appealing interior (if we don't consider the Pogo) but it is not that bad to justify that difference in price. Fact is that it is a rather plain interior but with all you really need to cruise comfortably.

The First has even some advantages. From all those boats it is the one with the better Ballast/Displacement and by a large margin (42% versus 32 or 33%). the boat is incredibly stiff. To give you an idea it is 25% more stiff than the previous 40.7...and the 40.7 is a stiff boat We can compare it in that aspect to the J 122, but that one would cost more 80 000 euros, and that's almost twice the Beneteau price .

This means that the boat can carry a large amount of sail, it will reef later and has the right stuff to be a very good and fast blue water boat.

The boat had small tankage (200L of water and 130L of fuel) but now you have an option for a 90 L extra water tank and regarding fuel, this is one of the boats that can sail in very weak winds (5K) so you really don't need a big diesel tank. It has a deep draft of 2.40, but also an option for a cruising keel with 1.95 m.

The boat has a good list of options with everything that is needed for cruising (most of them are included in the price of the CR version) and it seems to me as one of the best offers in what regards price/performance/quality/fast cruising or racing.

I am going to test sail this one soon, but in the meantime I leave you with the words of others that have already done that:

"Objectively detached with an aura of professional gravitas" best describes the four judges in Cruising World's 2010 Boat of the Year contest, if I do say so myself. At the dock, we interviewed each entrant's representatives and systematically inspected the boats. On the water, we uniformly anchored, motored, reefed, and test-sailed them, all the while furiously scratching numbers and notes on our various forms.

Aboard the Beneteau First 40, however, the moment the vessel powered up under sail, those notepads hit the deck like raindrops. As each of us jockeyed for position at the wheel, our professional demeanors gave way to big smiles and even the occasional "Yahoo!" Where once stood stone-faced number crunchers, big kids now gleefully put the pedal to the metalAnd that's exactly what Beneteau planners had in mind when they conceived the First 40. But they wanted to include the family, too, so they approached the team at Farr Yacht Design with a broad brief: Keep or even improve the performance of the highly successful First 40.7, but include all the requisite elements of a family-friendly cruiser, including lounging spaces in the cockpit, a well-appointed interior, and viable systems for extended coastal voyages.
..."

"Few compromises face the cruisers below. The attractive Alpi interior is open, bright, functional, and well ventilated due to numerous deck hatches and portholes. The two double cabins aft and the forepeak double, all with standing headroom, will accommodate the entire family. A large leafed table attached to the centerline sole opens up to straight seating both port and starboard. "

Beneteau First 40: Copious Cruising Comforts and Speed to Burn - Cruising World

"Designed by Bruce Farr, the First 40 does an admirable job of blending a truly fast hull with a very stylish interior. And although another magazine named the Beneteau First 40 the crossover boat of the year, that's not quite right. It's not likely you will buy the First 40 because of its interior, although the oak-finished cabin is certainly handsome and surprisingly comfortable. Let's be candid, the reason for buying a Beneteau First 40 is because you want to sail fast all the time, and there's nothing wrong with that.

......Back on the bay, Garth Hitchens from Annapolis Yacht Sales, the local Beneteau dealer, had assembled a crack crew to put the First 40 to the test. As soon as we cleared Back Creek and canned the engine, we popped the spinnaker, a broad shouldered S1 chute that immediately powered up the First 40. The conditions were ideal: 10 to 14 knots with a modest chop. Driving toward the Bay Bridge, we sped up over 7 knots on a deep reach. Heating things up a bit to stay in deep water we accelerated over 8 and then flirted with 9 knots."

Sailing Magazine | Beneteau First 40

"COMPARISONS WITH THE 40.7?

The new First 40 is stiffer, 25% more righting with a taller, high aspect rig, and non-overlapping headsails. The hull is about a foot longer and is stiffer due to the newer build technologies. It is quicker on all points of sail. Typically the 40.7 rates around 1.060 to 1.073, while the new First 40 is reckoned to come in around 1.088.....

Personally I think the 'Farr' transom ages the boat unnecessarily, but that is a purely subjective call.

In every respect the 40 is a good looking boat which does, as we said with the 45, have as broad an appeal as possible in terms of the appearance.

Certainly Beneteau could have gone for something much more contemporary, but this boat is about creating something which will stand the test of time."

Yachting Life

Beneteau's newest First series of cruiser/racers are designed for speed and performance, without compromising their French designer flair and creature comforts below decks. The First 40 undoubtedly delivers plenty of comfort in the saloon and accommodation below. But that is not at all why you'd buy a Beneteau First.

You buy it because it is fast- upwind, downwind, reaching, running--whether around the cans on weekend point-score racing, contesting regattas, or out at sea on long offshore races, this is a very swift 40-footer against all comers!

First aboard: sailing the new Beneteau First 40 | Offshore Yachting | Find Articles at BNET

And some movies:




























































Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Local dealer has one of these coming in. Wish it would have been a 35 personally.....

I also noticed the other day on Catalina's web site, the new 355 is up and being shown, for a floor plan etc. 

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> ...
> I also noticed the other day on Catalina's web site, the new 355 is up and being shown, for a floor plan etc.
> 
> Marty


Sorry Marty, but I really don't like that one. I am sure it is well built and all, but the design is....old.

Compare it with the competition, the two Oceanis that are in between, the 34 and the 37 and remember that the 37 will cost probably less than the Catalina 355. The Catalina does not even have a bulb, for maximizing ballast and therefore will need a lot more weight on the ballast, making it a heavier and slower boat.

Those Oceanis are designed by Finot and specially the 37 is a very good design.

Just compare the drawings:










Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

paulo,

I never said the c355 floated my boat per say. It is oldish shoe'ish in design, and will be slower per say than the Bene or Jeaneau equals. It did seem heavy at 12K or so lbs. with a bunch in the keel. I am sure if he had done a bulb, he could have lowered that amount by 1000 lbs or so, and had a much faster boat, along with more stable etc.

marty


----------



## PCP

*Beneteau Oceanis 34*



blt2ski said:


> paulo,
> 
> I never said the c355 floated my boat per say. It is oldish shoe'ish in design, ....
> 
> marty


Well, I am relieved 
By the way have a better look at the Oceanis 34. It is a good design, not a slow sailboat and with a great interior (the 37 is even better).






http://www.beneteau.com/UserFile/Image/Panoramiques_Flash/beneteau-oceanis-34.html

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Saw the first one, (sold) at the seattle boat show a week or so ago. I will say it was nice, altho me personally, not quite what I want. Spouse who was not with me, might like it. The one I saw had the dark teak?!?! interior, which she purr's in those interiors. For me, freeboard, head room seemed a bit too much. Altho at 6' myself, it is nice to standup pretty much thru out vs very little area in my current boat that I can stand up in.

I think I have been on a 37 too, but will not quote myself. The dealer also had a 31 in stock at the show too. The 34 is nicer for what I would need size comfort etc. The overall how I sail etc, the 1st35 would probably be the better option.

Marty


----------



## tdw

Now you guys know all too well that I adore the Luffes. Deck Saloon or no deck saloon they are utterly utterly gorgeous, positively orgasmic. I most certainly would if I could.

Not convinced about the Benny though Paulo. All too racey for my tastes. Inadequate looking galley, blah blah blah.

Catching up on my reading here guys. Sorry, but I've been a bit busy elsewhere of late. I'll try to pay better attention in the future.


----------



## blt2ski

You Fuzzy was a bear!

If you were not SOOOOOOO worried about filling up your brain with them solar cells, you would have time to worry about the nonsensical something or other that is going on here!

Much better to have a single brain cell than many, leave that to the spousal female unit. Less is better for us male types!


----------



## tdw

I know I know I know....solar cells, heat exchanger, auto pilot, new covers.....not to mention book shelves...all to be done by end December.....

I'm late, I'm late...running running...my life is turning into....










ye gods and little fishes.....not a bloody tea party.....


----------



## PCP

*Beneteau Oceanis 37*



tdw said:


> ....
> 
> Not convinced about the Benny though Paulo. All too racey for my tastes. Inadequate looking galley, blah blah blah.
> 
> ....


I know that one is not for you, but I like it fast and if I have not the money for a fast boat with a nice looking interior, I am prepared to make some compromises.

However the First 40 has a functional interior with a relatively big freezer and a good galley. I have been already inside one and I can tell you that it is better than what it looks. Anyway better than the one from my old Bavaria 36 and that is enough for me.

For your tastes and what I think is your budget I would look to the Oceanis 37. It is a favorite in France and if I did not want a really fast boat, I would be tented by that one. It is a Finot design and I found it refreshingly different from the bigger Benetaus.

Take a look:

http://www.beneteau.com/UserFile/Image/Panoramiques_Flash/beneteau-oceanis-37.html











My Sailing: Oceanis 37 - Just the ticket

Yachting Life






Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

I do like the look of the Oceanis 37. Nice boat. 

I was always a fan of the old Oceanis 395 though not the interior layout.


----------



## myocean

*New Pictures... Pogo 12.50*

see Pogo 12.50 - Nautisme et Plaisance en Finistère


----------



## myocean

...and have you heard about Pogo 50?

"Trois cabines, deux salles de bain,"
15,2 m
8,6 t

Voiles et Voiliers : Chantier - Croisière «No limit» !

Will this become reality?


----------



## PCP

Yes I believe so. They are making it because there are sailors that want a boat like that at a price they can pay. There are some 50 fast boats but they cost huge amounts of money. The idea is making one of those at half the price (or less).

These one will have doors , not only on the head but also on the cabins. I still think that the 12.50 should have doors and not only in the head

Some drawings of the Pogo 50ft::



















Regarding the 12.50, Voile Magazine was the first to mini test the boat.

They say about it: *"The boat is easy and very fast offering a functional but seductive interior"*.

The wind was blowing between 16 and 18K and the boat was making 8.15 close to the wind (45º to the true wind) and 14k downwind.


















Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

paulo,

Have you seen or read the UK Yachting article from sept on the elan 350? saw that edition here local today, picked it up, hope it was worth the about twice what it goes for in Europe! has a few other BOTY boats in it too. either way, should be a good read I hope!

marty


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> I still think that the 12.50 should have doors and not only in the head


Yes, you are absolutely right. Lightness is nice but doors help a lot for quality of life.

What Voile Magazine wrote sounds good.

Ulf


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> paulo,
> 
> Have you seen or read the UK Yachting article from sept on the elan 350? saw that edition here local today, picked it up, hope it was worth the about twice what it goes for in Europe! has a few other BOTY boats in it too. either way, should be a good read I hope!
> 
> marty


I hope you like it. It is one of the best, but I think you would like it more Voile magazine or Voile et voiliers, but unfortunately (for you) they are in French .

I believe you are talking about "Yachting World"? Yes I have read that test. Yachting World is one of the best in what concerns boat tests and has a good balance between cruising and racing. The French ones also, but have more racing and more fast boats (British, in what regards sailing, are the most conservative among the Europeans).

If you like it you can have it at 40% of what it costs in England if you download it on Zinio. By the way, Cruising World, Sail magazine and Sailing are almost for free on Zinio. They don't have "Blue Water sailing" and that's a shame cause that's the one I prefer among the American magazines

Yachting World|Subscribe | Zinio Digital Magazines and Books

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> If you like it you can have it at 40% of what it costs in England if you download it on Zinio. By the way, Cruising World, Sail magazine and Sailing are almost for free on Zinio. They don't have "Blue Water sailing" and that's a shame cause that's the one I prefer among the American magazines


Paulo, you are really incredible. You are SO up to date with everything. Not only you have a great overview about the to boats and some you have already tested, no you even use things like Zinio. I just discovered Zinio 4 weeks ago when I bought an iPad.

However: One of the first magazines I purchased in Zinio was "Blue Water Sailing". Check again, it is there!

Apart from the prices a big advantage of Zinio is that you get the magazines at any time. Even at places where a print version of a foreign magazine would be difficult to get. So I purchased "Voile Magazine" yesterday after your hint and made my wife to read it (I don't understand lots of french)

Regards,
Ulf


----------



## blt2ski

SOunds like I need to check out Zinio for some of the rags I read. altho, if it is in eletronic format, does not help the paper version on the bedside to read myself to sleep!LOL

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Xp 44*



myocean said:


> ....
> 
> However: One of the first magazines I purchased in Zinio was "Blue Water Sailing". Check again, it is there!
> 
> Apart from the prices a big advantage of Zinio is that you get the magazines at any time. Even at places where a print version of a foreign magazine would be difficult to get. ....
> 
> Regards,
> Ulf


Thanks Ulf...and you are right about Zinio and Blue Water Sailing.

Here it is:

Blue Water Sailing |Subscribe | Revistas e livros digitais do Zinio

You know, BWS was one of the first magazine to have a digital version but it was not on Zinio but on some very unfriendly software (I have forgotten the name). Several years ago I have signed it for about two years before given up: It was just to difficult to read. I had suggested them to change to Zinio and I am happy they did, but I believe they have done that only recently.

About boats, there is a new interesting one coming in, the new X-Yachts Xp 44.

Now they call to their more cruising oriented boats Xc and the Cruiser-Racers Xp.

They say about it:

"Innovative design features throughout ensure that the Xp 44 will be a pleasure to sail both in racing and cruising mode.

.....The new Xp 44 will have significantly higher stability.

The latest techniques in both design and construction have been utilised to achieve significant weight savings compared to the previous model, the trend setting X-43, which the Xp 44 replaces.

Of all the structural weight saved, around 1250 kg has been used to increase the weight of the large T-bulb, while the other weigh savings have been used to reduce the overall displacement of the yacht by an additional half a tonne.
The consequence for the Xp 44 design is a 15% reduction in displacement relative to its length whilst absolute stability has increased by 20%.

The Xp 44 will be very competitive under both IRC and ORC. Building on the unrivalled reputation of X-Yachts, the Xp 44 features a new carbon/composite keel grillage, providing an even greater ratio of strength and stiffness to weight. Further weight reduction together with increased rigidity is made possible through use of the latest epoxy E-Glass vacuum infusion processes.

....The Xp 44 wil make her debut early in 2011 and the first series of 10 units are being offered for an introduction price of € 284,000 (ex VAT)."

Xp 44

X-Yachts Corporate site


















Well, I am sure it is going to be a great boat and I like the hull design, but I don't like the aesthetics. Maybe I am turning conservative on this one, but I don't like the white interior (galley) and I don't like the outside design.

Maybe because I just loved too much the old X 43 .










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Presto 30*

This is an innovative one and its an American boat. If it was a car, it would be a light and versatile SUV. He can do everything, from grounding on a beach, to be trailed by a car and to go out there on the ocean.

That's a Rodger Martin design. Rodger Martin is a South African that as been living for a long time in the States is one of most creative American boat designers. I really don't understand why American boatbuilders don't use more his talents.

The boat is the Presto 30 manufactured by Ryder boats and I doubt that there is a simpler boat to sail.

Presto 30 by Ryder Boats By Paul Cronin On ExposureRoom





















Ryder Boats Home

Thorfinn Expeditions - The Presto 30
































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Rodger Martin - Presto 30*

I am surprised that no one has found this one very interesting and deserving a comment.

Well, after reading a detailed report about the boat I was even more impressed.

Pity this one is not an European boat. I believe that it would be a success on the tidal waters of Britain, Normandy and Brittany.

This boat was designed by Rodger Martin , for himself, as his ideal cruising boat, and believe me, this is a very smart design and a very careful one. Take another look again.

Rodger Martin Yacht Design

Here, on the words of Rodger Martin, some details on the Presto 30 (I don't have a link, but believe me, there is a lot more of very interesting stuff on this article and on this design).

"In all the years I have been designing boats, and despite many attempts, I have not been able to complete the design of a boat to myself&#8230;..

My wife and I, both having crossed the Atlantic and sailed a lot on a variety of boats, see the ideal cruising boat as one that we can spend a month or two in interesting cruising grounds&#8230;but we keep coming back to the Bahamas as an ideal cruising ground.

So we need a boat that can sail safely and well in swallow water and be put on a beach, and we like to go fast between anchorages. This calls for a sharpie of some sort or a multihull.

A sharpie of 30ft or so is easily trailered without compromise, so you can avoid boat yards and you can maintain it yourself at home, if you want to. So this is the choice we made&#8230;.

Maine builders, Ryder boats &#8230; known&#8230; for building hulls, decks and parts for such companies as Hincley yachts, Morris Yachts and Lyman Morse Boatbuilders, has turned this design into a simple, well put together, affordable boat&#8230;.

The Presto 30 has a limit of positive stability of 145º!....With actual capsize tests done&#8230;it is very hard to capsize and hold these boats down!"

Regards

Paulo


----------



## SecondWindNC

PCP, I have been checking out the reviews of that one, and it does look like a pretty neat, simple boat.


----------



## sailingdog

PCP—

Part of the issue is that what Rodger sees as his perfect boat may not be as well suited for other people's needs. For instance, that boat has a pretty small cabin with low headroom...which may not appeal to many other boaters. I doubt there is standing headroom in that boat.


----------



## Faster

Certainly such a boat will appeal to those with the same requirements/priorities and it looks cleanly executed.

I think headroom, centerboard trunk interference, "unconventional" rig (no matter how practical) will all conspire to limit this boat's market appeal.

Btw, Paulo, this is a great thread, thanks for keeping it going...


----------



## PCP

*Presto 30*



sailingdog said:


> PCP-
> 
> Part of the issue is that what Rodger sees as his perfect boat may not be as well suited for other people's needs. For instance, that boat has a pretty small cabin with low headroom...which may not appeal to many other boaters. I doubt there is standing headroom in that boat.


Yes, of course, you are right. But what makes this boat out of ordinary is its somewhat wild and radical character. Look at this stability curve:

ryderboats.com

Look at the unexpected polar speed (for a center boarder):

ryderboats.com

You can even race this boat and beat most of same sized keel boats.

Of course you are right about the standing height, at least for big guys:










But I believe that (like me) he would prefer to bend (or sit) than having an ugly boat with a big freeboard. Thats a choice of compromises.

This is not a boat for the conventional sailor, its a boat for the adventurous and sportive sailor, kind of luxury camper, a boat for living on the outside and sleep inside. Kind of a motorcycle, if the more typical cruisers compare to cars.

It is for all this that I like it. Guess that my tastes are not faraway from the ones from Rodger Martin. If you look at his Portfolio you will see that he has made mostly fast cruiser racers and racing boats. My kind of sailor, my kind of cruiser and I know that as cruisers we are not mainstream, so ...you are absolutely right, this is not an ordinary boat, not a mainstream one and that's what makes it interesting.

ryderboats.com

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

...wombat scrambles to catch up yet again...

hey Paulo, I'm with you. Plain simple easy to handle, inexpensive to maintain. Quite frankly that's an appealing recipe. 

I admit that my old farts spine would find the headroom a problem but if I was young bloke looking to get out and have some fun then this would be a great way to do it. 

The concept of cruising as camping is not without attraction.


----------



## rockDAWG

PCP said:


> Look at this stability curve:
> 
> http://www.ryderboats.com/Files/Presto 30 IMS Curves 2.pdf
> Paulo


Paulo, how do they perform the stability test? Since I don't know, I don't know how to interpret the curve. Does the boat get completely turtled hence 180 degree on the x-axis?


----------



## rockDAWG

PCP said:


> I kind of fell rather lonely sometime , so this request is for all of you that follow this thread: Please post your comments, negative or positive, they are very welcomed.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I enjoy this thread very much although I have not had a chance to read from the beginning to the end yet.


----------



## Kenif

*Favourite Thread*

Guys,

This is my favourite thread on sailnet although I must admit i feel like a bit of a parasite.
I enjoy the fact that guys like Paulo have the opportunity to go out and explore whats in the market place that is slightly different.
I appreciate the efforts such as the wombat who provide feedback and discussions on pro's and cons of design etc.
Unfortunately many of us lack the experience to provide meaningful comments and are primarily to learn.
I am more than happy to provide a laymans critique of designs such as the Presto if other feels that it would contribute.

Thanks to all the guys who have opinions.

Regards

Kenif


----------



## tdw

Kenif said:


> Guys,
> 
> This is my favourite thread on sailnet although I must admit i feel like a bit of a parasite.
> I enjoy the fact that guys like Paulo have the opportunity to go out and explore whats in the market place that is slightly different.
> I appreciate the efforts such as the wombat who provide feedback and discussions on pro's and cons of design etc.
> Unfortunately many of us lack the experience to provide meaningful comments and are primarily to learn.
> I am more than happy to provide a laymans critique of designs such as the Presto if other feels that it would contribute.
> 
> Thanks to all the guys who have opinions.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Kenif


Kenif,
The great thing about threads like this is that we have guys like Paulo and Marty who really know their stuff and are prepared to spend a lot of time digging up the info and posting it. 
Then you have someone like me who may not know much about boats but likes what he knows. 
If you see something you like, jump in and say so. If you think CruisingDad is a complete dill , let the world know. You'll feel better for it. 
Seriously, even those of us who don't have much idea on the technical aspects of boats can still have opinions on layout, rig type and interior design. 
So don't be shy, jump right in. No one will be concerned if you make a fool of yourself.....the Wombat and SmackDaddy are well ahead of you...
Cheers
td


----------



## PCP

*On Design - stability*



rockDAWG said:


> Paulo, how do they perform the stability test? Since I don't know, I don't know how to interpret the curve. Does the boat get completely turtled hence 180 degree on the x-axis?


You make questions that give a lot to work to answer .

About the interpretation of a stability curve, first look here to understand the meaning of the therms used:

Ships Definations

Than here for a good generic explanation:

s/y Troldand - Stability

and here for a fine tunned explanation (read the first page and open "stability comparison" PDF :

stability

Those curves are about static stability, an important way to access a boat stability but on a boat you have also to take on consideration dynamic stability (the interaction of the boat with the waves). Dynamic stability is a much more controversial subject even if there are some certitudes. For example a boat with a high freeboard will have a better stability curve (than the same hull with a small freeboard) but the dynamic stability would be a lot worse.

Regarding the way stability curves are obtained:

Most of them are obtained by a computer program, introducing the different boat parameters.To have a better one you can make an inclining test and enter with that values to confirm the previous curve, or make one based on those numbers.

"A GZ curve provided by the yacht designer is shown on an ORCi Stability & Hydrostatic Datasheet and is produced as part of the ISO 12217-2 calculations. By itself, a GZ curve does not meet the YA Special Regs for stability!!! In other words, the ORCV will not accept a GZ curve provided by a yacht designer on its own. Supporting documentation from an inclination test will need to be provided to demonstrate that the boats resistance to capsize matches the designer's data provided."

And many times it does not match

2010_Stability

An inclining test looks like this:

2009_InclinationTests

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Comet 26*

The Presto 30 is a versatile and fun boat, but this one is not behind .

An Italian little beauty (26 ft), with a lifting keel and a foldable mast. Also with a version with fixed keel and regular mast.

A very nice design by Sergio Lupoli

Sergio Lupoli Yacht Design




























"The Comet 26 is Sergio Lupoli's brainchild and aims to complete Comar Yachts' small boat range. The goal of the Fiumicino Yard is in fact to offer a series of yachts that are small but are excellently built. The sporty, high-performance and fun gamut includes the Comet 21, 26 and 30. The C26 is a part of this range built by Comar Poland, the shipyard Comar Yachts has established in Poland for the construction of these boats.

In particular, the Comet 26 aims to be a comfortable small cruiser, very easy to use and with excellent technical content. The sail plan and deck layout are optimized to ensure the boat is fast and responsive when maneuvering, at the same time making certain she is easy to manage even with a family crew.

The Comet 26 is easy to use and transport as you can reach the beach thanks to the lifting keel and retractable rudder. The boat's minimum draft is 50 cm. The foldable mast also guarantees the ease of transport: a well tested block & tackle system allows the Comet 26 to go under bridges not less than 3 meters high, letting you moor along channels and rivers.

A second version of the C26 is also available with a fixed keel and a non-foldable mast. Thanks to a notable freeboard and maximum beam of about 3 meters, the Comet 26 offers true cruiser interiors: berths are spacious and comfortable and the galley and head areas are ergonomically designed to be spacious and functional.

Hull and deck are solidly laminated using isophthalic resin and fiberglass sheets. With the Comet 26, the goal is to offer a small cruising boat that is truly easy to manage while providing maximum comfort."

ComarYachts

And after this one, that has been presented this year on the Genoa boat show, a 30ft is on its way (Marty, look at this one ):



















Gorgeous boats aren't they? and in Italian red, like the Ferraris

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

That's lovely Paulo. Must be something of a trial to single hand with those coachroof mounted sheet winches but she'd be a fun boat no doubt. (Ah, just noted that the 30's sheet winches are down low.)

The designer in me cries out for the Comet but the aging hippy says Presto.  I suspect that if they were the same price then I'd end up going Comet but I presume the Presto would a lot cheaper, both to buy and to maintain.


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## SecondWindNC

Now that does look cool. My question is about the auxiliary - is that the engine back there in that tiny offset compartment? If so, I'm assuming it must have a saildrive of some sort at the extreme aft edge of the bottom.


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## Faster

Looks like fun... from a cruising/livability POV, I have to wonder how much clearance is above that seemingly large aft berth (under the cockpit sole) .. maybe a tight fit for a claustro...

Is the 26 meant to be O/B powered?


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## rockDAWG

PCP said:


> Guys, I would like to call your attention to a boat that all of you know
> 
> No, I am no going senile it is just that what makes a boat interesting is not only its merits but also its price.
> 
> The Beneteau First 40 is interesting by its own qualities but now it is been offered in a new version (CR) at a price that is hard to resist. To give you an idea, the price would not be faraway from the one from a Bavaria 40 fully equipped and at least 40 000 euros less than the other European cruiser racers (Dufour, Elan, Salona) and about the same than a 380 Elan. And, off course, this boat is quick.
> Paulo


Paulo, 
After reading your post, I was drawn to learn more about the First Series. By examining all previous models including 40.7, 42, AND 44.7, I was disappointed to find that the new 40 has a relatively small tankage compared to those of the previous models. I understand that First series in not design for long term cruising. But I like to use for it for cruising with a possibility to sail to Europe and stay there for a couple years.

I am not sure how the hardware used in the new 40 compared to the older ones. From the Beneteau website, the new hull is lighter, stronger and stiffer. Your thought on this is appreciated.


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## PCP

Hey guys,

The 26ft can has a 10hp outboard or an inboard diesel (saildrive) with 13 hp.

Andrews, I believe that you are right about the 30ft. On the 26ft it seems to me that with a stick you can reach the front winches. Probably both boats will have an option for an extra side winch.

Regarding price you are probably right. The Comar are very good and fast boats and their price is not far from the ones from Grand Soleil (the bigger italian sail shipyard) and that means expensive, a lot more than similar French boats ( that are not so well finished). But this one is from a new line, made not in Italy but in Poland and that has certainly to do with the boat price. Maybe this one is not as expensive

Guys do you want to vote on the nicest boat?

"Giornalle de la Vela", probably the best sail magazine in Italy (and one of the good ones in Europe) is selecting the nicest sail boat presented on the Genova boat show. They are all 2010 models, and they are all nice boats.

Have a vote

Giornale Della Vela | Sondaggio Qual la barca pi bella del Salone di Genova Abbiamo selezionato undici novit presenti al Salone di Genova di ogni taglia e prezzo da 8 a 20

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

PCP said:


> ...........
> 
> Guys do you want to vote on the nicest boat?
> 
> "Giornalle de la Vela", probably the best sail magazine in Italy (and one of the good ones in Europe) is selecting the nicest sail boat presented on the Genova boat show. They are all 2010 models, and they are all nice boats.
> 
> Have a vote
> 
> Giornale Della Vela | Sondaggio Qual la barca pi bella del Salone di Genova Abbiamo selezionato undici novit presenti al Salone di Genova di ogni taglia e prezzo da 8 a 20
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Je ne sais pas! or some such spelling of wording in my brain from the F I got in French class! I guess I need to know italian to vote eh! hmmmmmm

Not sure about prettiest, but 1st choices for how "I" use a boat, Elan 350, 1st 30 and that Comet, if nothing else for the name is pretty cool!

Beyond that............

Not sure that there is a truly UGLY boat........ then about that time I see this white and browny tan Buccaneer 26 in the impound yard at my marina......

marty


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## tdw

It is showing my predilection for big windows but the Hanse does it for me. Self tacking headsail, good looks and with the dark interior option it loses a lot of the Hanse Ikea Interior design look. At 44.5' a bit too much boat perhaps but I reckon I could live with that baby. I just wish Hanse could give us a proper bloody chart table. Scrap one of the cabins for all I care, ditch one of the heads I'd not be upset, but I want a proper bloody chart table, somewhere a bloke can sit, ponder the world at large, the eternal verities and all that and when in the mood pontificate to the assembled masses. 

Beyond that the Elan 350 and the Comet because they do things a little differently and with great panache. Had the Comet 30 been on the list she might just have shuffled her way to the top.


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## blt2ski

You know TD, better to have NOT the chart table, because that would make you think, and you know what that does to us males! pulls a dang brain cell mind you! that makes fuzzies REALLY fuzzy! So stick with lack of chart table......

Then again, my 1985 29.5' Jeanneau has a better chart table than the Hanse! at what, 1/10 or less of the cost.......


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## Rybcia

*Comet 26*

comet 26 is very fast, how all boats Comet. I swam this boat in this holiday and was the best. If You need some phote I can sent it.


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## Rybcia




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## Rybcia

We produced red boat Comet 26 from Polish customer ( + engine Lombardini 13hp and red uphostery).[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]


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## PCP

*First 40*



rockDAWG said:


> Paulo,
> After reading your post, I was drawn to learn more about the First Series. By examining all previous models including 40.7, 42, AND 44.7, I was disappointed to find that the new 40 has a relatively small tankage compared to those of the previous models. I understand that First series in not design for long term cruising. But I like to use for it for cruising with a possibility to sail to Europe and stay there for a couple years.
> 
> I am not sure how the hardware used in the new 40 compared to the older ones. From the Beneteau website, the new hull is lighter, stronger and stiffer. Your thought on this is appreciated.


That's a simple one . Regarding price the First 40 compares with the Elan 380 and the Salona 37 (there will be a 38 soon).

The Elan and the Salona have more agreeable interiors (to my taste) and with slightly better quality. The Salona has a steel inox grid to distribute the forces from the keel and shrouds, and that's a very strong point, but has no hull window (the First don't have one also). The Elan offers you an outside view from the salon.

The three are very fast boats, and the First, the fastest. The First has a long list of options (like the others) and can have a supplementary water deposit (95 L). That way the boat has about 300L of water and that's not bad. The boat sai so well in weak winds that I don't think that you will have problems with the diesel tankage (130L).

About the hardware, it depends on the options. The top hardware is very good and even the medium is good.

All tree boats are seaworthy, but the First will be more. It has a very high ballast/displacement, a lot better than the Elan or Salona. It is a very stiff boat (more than the previous model) and it is also a narrow boat. That will give it a comfortable sea motion.

If you can live comfortably in that boat (interior deco and space), than is not only a very good boat for racing but also for cruising, including bluewater cruising. Of course, if you plan to cross te Atlantic with more than two or three in the boat, you will need a watermaker, but that is not a problem.

They now have an option for a teak interior, and that's a big improvement over the standard interior.

Now, if you have the extra USD40000 or 45000 to give for an Elan 410 or a Salona 41...they will be as fast (cruising) and will have a better interior. If you have not, the choice will be between the First 40, the Elan 380 and the Salona 37 (or 38).

If you have any doubt ask and I will try to answer.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Panorama interiors Elan 350; Salona 41; First 30; Elan 31; Dehler 45; XC38*

360º photos of some of the boats posted on this thread:

First the Elan 350. I have to see if I fit inside this one . The boat is not expensive and I really like it very much. The interior is alright, simple but functional. I don't like that wood, but they have other options:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/elan_350_.swf

The Salona 41 is probably the boat I would buy if Icould find the money for it, providing they put hull ports on the right place. They have the open space for it but it looks someone forget to mount them . The interior is nothing fancy, but it is not bad. I would also prefer other wood (teak) that they have as an option. Anyway It was not by its interior that I would chose this one :

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/salona_41_.swf

The First 30 is a very fast and good looking boat and has a very beautiful interior, even if it seems not to have much storage space:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/first_30_.swf

The Elan 31 seems to have more storage space, but its functional interior it is not as attractive as the one from the First. No hull port and that make a difference, in light and outside view Maybe they put one, if you ask:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/elan310-sal_.swf

The First 35 has a clean interior. Too clean for me . Lots of storage space, but no port hull on the salon. I like a lot more the First 30 interior. Pity they had not followed here the same trend :

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/first35-nav_.swf

The Jeanneau 409 has the better designed interior that I ever saw on a 40ft boat. Look at the outside view. Very cosy

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/jeanneau_409_.swf

The Bavaria 40 interior is really bad. They ruined a good boat with an interior that seems to come from Ikea. Please, get a French or Italian designer for the interior . It is a shame to spoil a boat like that:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/bavaria_40_.swf

The Sirius 31Ds interior is just amazing for the boat size and its quality is really top of the market:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/sirius_310_.swf

More two that are not on this thread, but that could be, because they are interesting and very good boats:

The Dehler 45 has a very plain but good looking interior. That's a lot better than the previous interiors that had a lot of black in it. Looks simple but comfortable:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/dehler_45_s_.swf

And for last a boat that had never beem posted here probably because it pisses me that I cannot afford it (not even on my dreams) . It is just the perfect bluewater boat for a solo sailor. It is not big but has the right size to be easily handled, it is not very fast, but it is fast enough and the interior is just perfect. Good taste, storage and very good quality all-around, that's the X-38Cr:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/xc38_.swf

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Pacer 310; Pacer 376 and Pacer 430*

Another small and beautiful boat

This one comes from South Africa and it is the new Pacer 310. The interior design seems good and the boat, as all other Pacers should be very fast.




























Pacer Yachts :: Information on South Africa's finest yacht builders for sportboat sailing

Take a look at the also new 430. That is a good looking boat and it seems very fast:










Pacer 430 - Pacer Yachts englisch

and to the "older" 376:










Pacer 376 Cr - Pacer Yachts englisch

Pacer 376 CR Boats for sale UK, Pacer Used boat sales, Pacer Sailing Yachts For Sale Pacer 376 - Apollo Duck

Regards

Paulo


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## AlaskaMC

That Pacer 30 is beautiful. My wife and are are in the process of looking at boats now and this thread has been a lot of fun. Seems too bad that some of these designs are not big in the States as many seem to answer all the hopes we have of a boat. Of course some of them we would need to add $0 to our budget, unfortunatly that 0 would have to be added at the end of the number.

But lots of fun to learn about. That Comet would seem to be a huge hit is there was something like that produced in the states. Performance, shallow water ability, can get under bridges into interesting spots etc. Cool to look at though.


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## PCP

*Salona 37*



AlaskaMC said:


> That Pacer 30 is beautiful. My wife and are are in the process of looking at boats now and this thread has been a lot of fun. Seems too bad that some of these designs are not big in the States as many seem to answer all the hopes we have of a boat. Of course some of them we would need to add $0 to our budget, unfortunatly that 0 would have to be added at the end of the number.
> 
> But lots of fun to learn about. That Comet would seem to be a huge hit is there was something like that produced in the states. Performance, shallow water ability, can get under bridges into interesting spots etc. Cool to look at though.


Thanks for your imput.

About modern designs on the US market, there is an explanation why you cannot find them .

Last summer when I visited the Salona shipyard I had a nice and interesting conversation with Mr. Kresimir, the president of the managing board of Salona. I have asked him why they have presently no dealer on the States. I knew that the Salona 37 had been elected (on the states) boat of the year (2007) and had received very good reviews by all American specialized press. It appears not to make sense .

http://www.sailingworld.com/article/2007-Boat-of-the-Year-Report

http://www.sailingmagazine.net/boats/3-perry-on-design/316-salona-37

http://www.cruisingworld.com/article.jsp?ID=49377&typeID=397&catID=571

Salona 42 Performance Cruiser : Mini Review - Cruising World

He said that, although the very good press on the 37, they have not sold boats on the States. They have changed their efforts to Japan and Fareast, and they are selling boats there 

I guess that US has a very conservative (and small) market and that sailors like you or the ones that have been posting on this thread are just a small minority that does not justify the import of modern fast boats neither their production in the US.

Also, there are a lot less sailors (by population percentage) on the US than on Europe and most of those are not buying new (modern) boats, but just very old and inexpensive boats (used boats). Another factor is that the proportion of new motor boats versus new sailboats, on US is much higher than in Europe and the boats that are selling new are motor boats (expensive), not sailboats.

I hope (and I think) things are slowly changing. The problem has nothing to do with the absence of good boat modern designers on the US (even if they are a small percentage of the ones we have in Europe), but even those, like Farr, or Rodger Martin have no commands from American companies and work mainly for European companies.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Faurby 424*

Guys, I don't want to give you the idea that I don't like "Classic" boats, cause that would not be true .

I like them a lot, but for Classic's I don't mean a design made 30 years ago and still in production. I mean modern boats (Modern hull, fin bulbed keel, modern rig) that take as inspiration Classical lines.

I have already posted about the Morris, that is more a day sailer than a real cruising boat, but there are some European boats that are really ocean going cruising boats, not many, but several.

From those there is one that I love very much, so much that probably I would consider having one if they were not so expensive. Surprised? I am serious; It is a fast boat and it has a very comfortable sea motion...and it is incredibly beautiful, with one of the best interiors you can find in any boat. Every-time I see one one a Boat show I don't resist to go inside, seat a while and dream I am a rich guy . Unfortunately all these modern classics are expensive, ant that the reason I don't consider them as an option.

The builder is also the designer and a very experienced sailor. It is a very nice guy that really has a passion for its boats. I have discussed them with him several times, with great pleasure.

Of course, because the boat is narrow, the interior space is more the size of a 38ft boat than the one of a 42ft. But with that quality who needs more? And the boat even have a separated (from the head) shower room.

I am talking about the Faurby 424. Have a look and tell me what you think:

FAURBY 424









































































Regards

Paulo


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## Faster

Now that's a nicely proportioned yacht... I'll bet she's a pleasure to sail. I do find the 'staggered' arrangement of the aft berth a bit odd.. suspect it's not really a viable double. I'm not a fan of the newer 'wide open' cabin spaces you see on the Benes with their Ikea Condo-ish look, this one has great handholds and apparently plenty of storage..

Kind of old school 'Swan' in some ways.. down to the sheer stripe!


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## AlaskaMC

PCP said:


> Also, there are a lot less sailors (by population percentage) on the US than on Europe and most of those are not buying new (modern) boats, but just very old and inexpensive boats (used boats). Another factor is that the proportion of new motor boats versus new sailboats, on US is much higher than in Europe and the boats that are selling new are motor boats (expensive), not sailboats.


Well, admittedly that is us for now. This will be our first boat and will be used and old. But, in Europe the choices of used boats are different than here for sure. Even Firsts are significantly more common than here.

After a few years of learning on an older boat it would sure be nice to have a wide variety of choices when we really decide what we want for the long haul. I see boats from all over the world that we like, it is just not like cars though where you drive down to "auto alley" and see everything at once. Well, unless you can get to the shows. Sure would have been fun to go to the show this week. Darn work.


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## Kenif

Okay, 

after looking really hard and trying to fault the Faurby how do I mount the bimini?
No bimini - no sale!

Just saved myself heaps.

Really love the style and I hazard a guess at the sailing characteristics. It looks as though she has max sail on and I can cope with that heel angle. 

I also like the cockpit. The modern ones with their wide open spaces just don't float my boat. 

Kenif


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## PCP

Kenif said:


> Okay,
> 
> after looking really hard and trying to fault the Faurby how do I mount the bimini?
> No bimini - no sale!
> 
> ...
> Kenif


Came on, Kenif, you want to put a Bimini on a Classic boat?

Boats with the travel and the sheeting near the wheel can only have a small bimini. If you want a big one you have only to ask for a mid boom sheeting and I am sure they will find the space for a travel there. They will think you are mad, but they will do it .

Seriously, it is possible to mount a small bimini, like this one:










But if you don't mind to lose that classic look, then they can make you a pilot house version. And you can have a bigger bimini.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/34014083/Faurby-424-de-Luxe-Offshore-FAUR


















Regards

Paulo


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## AlaskaMC

Ok, I will ask about one I have never seen before. This I saw in the trailerable thread. TES, of Poland, has a Canadian distributer and seems very cool.

TES Yacht Canada

Seems to be quite the freeboard, would be an interesting ride heeled over (coming from a total newbie on cruising boats) but would seem to be an ideal east coast US boat.

What are your thoughts on the manufacturer and the boat? There was a review on their site but all it talked about were the comforts, not at all about the sailing. Somehow this gives me pause. Anyone seen one of these in person?


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## Kenif

Paulo,
I am afraid that here in the southern climate a bimini is almost mandatory especially for those who are follicly challenged.
Please also remember that I was hard pressed to find a fault and almost had to make something up!

I am not a great fan of pilot hgouse boats but that one looks like an exceptional compromise.

Okay, alright i can live with the boat and am now buying several more lotto tickets.

Kenif


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## tdw

The Faurbys...either of 'em....they are lovely looking things indeed......the Scandivanians do like 'em long and lean don't they ?


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## Sternik

AlaskaMC said:


> Ok, I will ask about one I have never seen before. This I saw in the trailerable thread. TES, of Poland, has a Canadian distributer and seems very cool.
> 
> TES Yacht Canada
> 
> Seems to be quite the freeboard, would be an interesting ride heeled over (coming from a total newbie on cruising boats) but would seem to be an ideal east coast US boat.
> 
> What are your thoughts on the manufacturer and the boat? There was a review on their site but all it talked about were the comforts, not at all about the sailing. Somehow this gives me pause. Anyone seen one of these in person?


I have seen the boat twice - once at Toronto Boat Show 2010 (on display), then second time, just recently on the water at Port Credit boat show. My thought - If I was to compare this boat to similar sized boats in terms of finish and attention to detail - there is no comparison. Magnam seemed to be in its own niche, with its finish on much higher standard than, lets call it, the competition. If I already did not have a boat, I would buy it. From the looks and quality of finish alone, using an automotive comparison, it is a BMW. If you download their flyer from the main page, you will find Magnam's polar speed diagram - going pretty much 6kt in wind speed of 11kt gusting to 17kt. That is good speed, considering its weight. For some reason, the Canadian flyer does not show the righting moments, which are shown in their European catalogue here: http://www.tes-yacht.pl/img/tes-yachts-info-2010.pdf There is the most righting moment between approximately 40-60degrees heel, at even at 90 degrees heel, there is as much righting force as at 20 degrees, so boat is stiff. When I walked onto this boat, it barely moved, which I cannot say about some other boats I checked out - this is a definite bonus in my eyes. The boat does carry CE 'B' cert (one level short of full ocean going sailboat), hence my though the boat did earn it and is very seaworthy. Besides, there is a number of them sailing already on the Great Lakes and based on the info I got from the Canadian dealer, they are very popular in the Mediterranean. Personally, if you are relatively close to the Port Credit at Great Lakes, I would arrange a test sail and make your own opinion. Too bad the CY magazine did not sail in stronger winds (based on photos) and mentioned nothing of it. I read through some other reviews at CY website, and they do seem not to mention any nautical performance in general for any boats they test sail.


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## AlaskaMC

Sternik said:


> I have seen the boat twice - once at Toronto Boat Show 2010 (on display), then second time, just recently on the water at Port Credit boat show. My thought - If I was to compare this boat to similar sized boats in terms of finish and attention to detail - there is no comparison. Magnam seemed to be in its own niche, with its finish on much higher standard than, lets call it, the competition. If I already did not have a boat, I would buy it.


That is very interesting to hear. My wife and I are in the process of purchasing our first cruising boat now and it will be something more low end that we don't mind putting a bit of wear on in the learning process. But, we have already started our dream boat list so to speak and boats like this always catch our attention. The number of boats in this thread that have simply amazed us is crazy.

These boats will definitely be on our "too see" list over the next few years. A trailerable boat that would allow venturing into lots of hard to reach spots yet with performance and comfort would be pretty sweet. We will have to see what we want out of a boat first and I think we will learn a bunch over the next couple years.

I also have to stop drooling over the Faurby 424 too. What a sweet ride that would be. Almost too afraid to even ask how much the sticker is on those. Actually brings up a question. When you saw the Magnum 28, what was the base price if you remember?


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## Faster

The TES boats' interior shots are pretty amazing.. definitely looking at the high end for your typical trailer-sailer. Freeboard is kinda tall, but how else are you going to get that space on a shallow hull....

BUT... on the 28 and 32 that sheer line treatment just doesn't do it for me at all, and it's most pronounced on the 32.

Some nice touches - in their gallery (I was unable to capture their images) there's a nicely molded raised bit on the cockpit sole which provides a foot rest for bracing to weather.. and the open transom's pedestal seat is interesting.. -not seen that before. No traveler, though.

I'm guessing this is going to be a pricey number...


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## PCP

Kenif said:


> Paulo,
> I am afraid that here in the southern climate a bimini is almost mandatory especially for those who are follicly challenged.
> Please also remember that I was hard pressed to find a fault and almost had to make something up!
> ...
> Okay, alright i can live with the boat and am now buying several more lotto tickets.
> 
> Kenif


  

Kenif, if you want to live in style you have to make some sacrificies A bimini looks odd on a classic boat and on a classic boat beauty comes first

But I understand you very well, my previous boat had a bimini and this summer when I have asked (to the boss of the Charter company, that is a Dufour dealer) why he had so many Dufours from the Grand Large line and so few from the performance line, the answer come in one word:* Biminis*. The performance line has an end boom sheeting and it can only have a small bimini.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*TES 28, Delphia 28, First 27.7*



AlaskaMC said:


> Ok, I will ask about one I have never seen before. This I saw in the trailerable thread. TES, of Poland, has a Canadian distributer and seems very cool.
> 
> TES Yacht Canada
> 
> Seems to be quite the freeboard, would be an interesting ride heeled over (coming from a total newbie on cruising boats) but would seem to be an ideal east coast US boat.
> 
> What are your thoughts on the manufacturer and the boat? There was a review on their site but all it talked about were the comforts, not at all about the sailing. Somehow this gives me pause. Anyone seen one of these in person?





















This is an interesting boat in a sense that you can have in a 28ft boat an interior that normally you would only find on a 30ft. All the compromises in the boat design are on that direction, to make that interior possible. That ends up with a boat with a nice interior, but with a massif freeboard and a massive look. I guess that's why they don't talk on the brochure about sailing. Sailors that buy this boat are more interested on the interior amenities that in sailing performance.

I don't know what you mean by an "an ideal east coast US boat", but this seems to me as a boat to be used on protected waters.

I like more the other Polish boat, the Delphia 28 that has also a comfortable interior (even if not so BIG as the one from the Tes) and has certainly a better sailing performance. I find this one a more well proportioned and balanced boat.

This boat can come with a fixed keel or a centerboard. They advise that the version with fixed keel is the one that is recommended for "bluewater sailing" or by other words that the centerboard version is only recommended for protected or semi-protected waters.

Delphia 28























































Personally I would prefer the First 27.7, a very interesting boat designed by the "Master", Mr. Finot. This is a very diferent boat, it has not the cruising amenities of the Tes, but it puts a smile on your face when you sail with it...and a sailing boat is for sailing. This is a very popular boat in Europe, it is much more faster and enjoyable boat to sail and also a much more seaworthy boat but also a more expensive boat.

This one is a trailerable boat, but it is not a centerboarder (no considerable weight on the Keel). It is a lifting keel boat. The keel has a bulb and in sailing condition (down) it has a draft of 2.15M.

The interior is more "light" but it has the essential for coastal cruising.

first277ang

First 27.7 S














































Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Paulo,
I've only been on a couple of Delphia's and that was maybe five years ago. The quality of the fitout was terribly disappointing. From the pics of the D28 though it appears they are very much improved. Nice little boat, as is the First. What fabulous things for daysailing (quick and easy to get under way, fun to sail) with the ability to overnight or weekend. Good stuff.

I have to say I am in agreement with Fast re the TES. Quality looks great , no doubt but they are not a pretty boat yet they could be if not for the obsession to sleep so many people. 

Would any of you choose to sleep four on a 30'er ? On an overnight passage perhaps but not at anchor surely.


----------



## AlaskaMC

PCP said:


> I don't know what you mean by an "an ideal east coast US boat", but this seems to me as a boat to be used on protected waters.
> 
> I like more the other Polish boat, the Delphia 28 that has also a comfortable interior (even if not so BIG as the one from the Tes) and has certainly a better sailing performance. I find this one a more well proportioned and balanced boat.
> 
> Personally I would prefer the First 27.7, a very interesting boat designed by the "Master", Mr. Finot.o


I sorta misspoke on the "East coast" part of that, what I was thinking was for moving in and out of shallow protected waters, rivers, etc and being able to use the ditch. Not for going off shore. Inland exploring.

That Delphia is very nice! But I agree on the First. The 27-31 versions are always at the top of our list of choices. We are considering a major increase to our budget to be able to get a used one as our "First" boat. Sorry, couldn't help the pun.


----------



## PCP

*Paulo's boats*

Hey Andrews, there is a pilot house boat that I bet you don't know. It has a small "Room" with a view on the pilot house (with a pilot berth), and a large salon "inside" with a view through port hulls. It is a 46ft aluminum boat with a kind of classic look. What do you think about it?























































Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

Paulo,
Nice boat!
Perhaps a Lyman-Morse?


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Nice try, but wrong


I'd have one in a flash Paolo. That is gobsmackingly lovely to my eyes. (if you need a translation for 'gobsmacking' let me know. ) In short I like what I see. Bit larger than I need or want but life is rarely perfect.

Nemier mentions Lyman Morse....Bob Perry designed a lovely boat for LM to build known as a Perry 45 or lyman Morse 45. It was to a large extent a modernised enlarged Valiant 42 with pilot house. Lovely boat and very similar to this one but no.










This also bears some resemblance to a Bestevaer/ Bestewind and our old favourite the Puffin but its not one of those. Has a bit of a Van de Stadt look to it but again I know of no VDS that matches. The bow is unlike any VDS.

I'm guessing though that it is a nothern European design, probably Dutch or thereabouts.


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I presume the First comes in both fixed and retractable keels ? Bit sneaky of Benny to use the retra keel in the exterior shots but the fixed for the inside, or am I missing something ? Certainly that interior seems to be missing a centreboard case.

More I look at the TES the less I like it. Man, that thing is just plain ugly.

Ref the Delphia, I'm afraid that window treatment loses me completely. Computer generated industrial design has a lot to answer for. Just because you can put stupid squiggles into your design does not make it a good idea.


----------



## PCP

*Paulo's boats*



tdw said:


> I'd have one in a flash Paolo. That is gobsmackingly lovely to my eyes. (if you need a translation for 'gobsmacking' let me know. ) In short I like what I see. Bit larger than I need or want but life is rarely perfect.
> ....
> I'm guessing though that it is a nothern European design, probably Dutch or thereabouts.


 The boat I have posted would be lighter and would have a much bigger rig and sail plan. It would be incomparably faster than the one from Perry (that is a lovely design, but has much of a modern motor-sailor).

Well, you are half right about the Dutch designer, but most of the design is mine . Well, I have always designed the houses I have lived in, so why should I not design the boat I wanted?

That is pretty much the boat I wanted 6 or seven years ago. As I have design limitations on the technical parts of the boat (ruder design and assembly, keel fixation and hull structural design) I took a very seaworthy and sound old design by Dick Koopmans and have modified it. Different bow, different and larger stern, slightly longer hull and a bulbed keel, to have the same righting moment with a smaller ballast (lighter boat) and a much bigger waterline. The interior is all mine.

The drawings were shown to Mr. Koopmans that had agreed to alter his boat plans (for not too much money) to accommodate my drawings. I have looked for aluminum builders (the best places were Neederlands or South Africa) and it would cost (at that time) something a bit over 300 000 euros. But the business opportunities that would have made it possible never come true. 

This is the original design:










Anyway a short time after finishing those designs, my idea of a perfect boat changed and I had made another design, also over an existing aluminum boat, from another Dutch designer, a more modern and faster boat, and less of a classic

But I was right, this is the kind of boat that you would like to have

By the way my memory was at fault, the boat that I have posted is a 45ft, not a 46fter (the second design was slightly bigger).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*First 27.7*



tdw said:


> I presume the First comes in both fixed and retractable keels ? Bit sneaky of Benny to use the retra keel in the exterior shots but the fixed for the inside, or am I missing something ? Certainly that interior seems to be missing a centreboard case.
> ...
> Ref the Delphia, I'm afraid that window treatment loses me completely. Computer generated industrial design has a lot to answer for. Just because you can put stupid squiggles into your design does not make it a good idea.


Yes you are right about the 27.7. This is the interior of the boat with the lifting keel:










That's a good interior design, but remember that with the keel up, that one goes till almost the "roof". That's for improving that inconvenient that some years after this design Finot designed the Pogo 10.50. Same concept but with a swinging keel, that has a much lesser impact on the interior.

Regarding the Delphia, I don't like particularly the look that they give to the boat line (outside) but regarding the inside I would like to reserve my judgement after seeing them on a real boat. Photos (with wide angles can distort reality)

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Paulo,

Interesting that the element that made me think Dutch was the bow and it turns out that was designed by a Portuguese. 

I had a chat (virtually speaking) with BP about the LM45 and he said that he'd have preferred a more modern underbody but that was what the client wanted. If you look at some of the boats that BP has designed in recent years they have a much more modern underwater shape. 

I'm not wishing to start a US v the rest of world brouhaha but it seems that in the main they are a pretty conservative people in many ways. 

Anywho, your design I like. Being picky I'd move the stove away from the bulhead and the f'ward cabin is not much more than a bed is it ? I'd move the accomodations aft, giving the space lost in the sail locker and quarter cabin to the f'wrd cabin. I don't need lavish guest accomodation so give me the space and cramp them up...hee hee.

btw......you have any pics of your houses ? I'd be interested to see what you do. Message me, I'll send you an email address.


----------



## PCP

*Paulo's boats*



tdw said:


> ..
> Anywho, your design I like. Being picky I'd move the stove away from the bulhead and the f'ward cabin is not much more than a bed is it ? I'd move the accomodations aft, giving the space lost in the sail locker and quarter cabin to the f'wrd cabin. I don't need lavish guest accomodation so give me the space and cramp them up...hee hee.
> ....


You know, on such a small interior like the one in a boat personal tastes and needs will make always a difference. The stove is on that place to maximize the head counter and have the max working space for cooking (we like to cook) . A corner is also the best place to catch fumes vapors and smells and I would have installed there a small device to take them out. That's also the place we had it on the Bavaria and we like it and are used to have it on that place. It would not be really next to the bulkhead, but about 10 cms away (the stove is purposely oversized on the drawing).

About the forward cabin, yes it is just a bed with a long row of small wardrobes on top, but it would be a big and large bed (with a big sit on the middle) (I am big). You cannot have everything (always compromises) and I needed the space for having the large salon and large galley, not to mention the pilot house space and a decent cockpit. For storing clothes there are 3 big wardrobes on the back of the boat (and if needed there are space for more), and space under the front bed (drawers). The boat has an overall big storage capacity.

For me your solution would not have worked cause the big quarter cabin is not for guests, but for the kids . It has space for two and a small kid ( the boat would have space for 7 adults and one kid, not counting that small kid).

A boat has such a small space that everybody should have one designed accordingly to its requirements. That´s why I have designed that one

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> You know, on such a small interior like the one in a boat personal tastes and needs will make always a difference. The stove is on that place to maximize the head counter and have the max working space for cooking (we like to cook) . A corner is also the best place to catch fumes vapors and smells and I would have installed there a small device to take them out. That's also the place we had it on the Bavaria and we like it and are used to have it on that place. It would not be really next to the bulkhead, but about 10 cms away (the stove is purposely oversized on the drawing).
> 
> About the forward cabin, yes it is just a bed with a long row of small wardrobes on top, but it would be a big and large bed (with a big sit on the middle) (I am big). You cannot have everything (always compromises) and I needed the space for having the large salon and large galley, not to mention the pilot house space and a decent cockpit. For storing clothes there are 3 big wardrobes on the back of the boat (and if needed there are space for more), and space under the front bed (drawers). The boat has an overall big storage capacity.
> 
> For me your solution would not have worked cause the big quarter cabin is not for guests, but for the kids . It has space for two and a small kid ( the boat would have space for 7 adults and one kid, not counting that small kid).
> 
> A boat has such a small space that everybody should have one designed accordingly to its requirements. That´s why I have designed that one
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Absolutely......no kids here so for us maximise owners cabin, allowance made for the occasional guest or two and of course decent sea berths which because they are used so infrequently should serve two roles, as in settees if in the main cabin.

Interesting point about the stove. For me, as someone who also enjoys to cook , I like to have a bit of bench space on both sides of the stove.


----------



## PCP

*Diva 38*



tdw said:


> ...
> 
> I had a chat (virtually speaking) with BP about the LM45 and he said that he'd have preferred a more modern underbody but that was what the client wanted. If you look at some of the boats that BP has designed in recent years they have a much more modern underwater shape.
> 
> I'm not wishing to start a US v the rest of world brouhaha but it seems that in the main they are a pretty conservative people in many ways.
> 
> ...


Yes, the American cruising market is a very conservative one.

Take for instance the Diva 38. It is a Swedish boat designed and built by Bernt Lindquist 12 years ago. The boat seems as modern as on the day it was designed. Quite the opposite, with most American boats.













































































































Köpa Segelbåt & Motorbåt - Båttillverkare - Bavaria & Fabola Sverige

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Yes, the American cruising market is a very conservative one.
> Take for instance the Diva 38. It is a Swedish boat designed and built by Bernt Lindquist 12 years ago. The boat seems as modern as on the day it was designed. Quite the opposite, with most American boats.
> Paulo


Beautiful. Simply lovely. Hate the curved seating though. I do not understand why anybody would have a curved settee in a sailing boat. Useless as a berth, only good for when you have a horde of people on board. Glorious galley, superb carpentry.


----------



## Faster

That is one pretty boat all around... and I'll manage to live with those gorgeous curves!

Beautiful, Paulo.... keep 'em coming


----------



## blt2ski

I like curves, especially wen they are in the 32-22-32 type form......ooops......are we talking women, or boat/yachts females? either way, curves are nice!


----------



## Faster

With the Diva there are two good 'doubles' and that clever 'bunk bed' cabin aft... any more than 6 on board would be a bit much... so I think the curved settees are less of an issue as far as the berthage goes... mind you I suppose they're not great sea berths if you're planning offshore....


----------



## PCP

*Diva 35 movie test*



tdw said:


> Beautiful. Simply lovely. Hate the curved seating though. I do not understand why anybody would have a curved settee in a sailing boat. Useless as a berth, only good for when you have a horde of people on board. Glorious galley, superb carpentry.





Faster said:


> With the Diva there are two good 'doubles' and that clever 'bunk bed' cabin aft... any more than 6 on board would be a bit much... so I think the curved settees are less of an issue as far as the berthage goes... mind you I suppose they're not great sea berths if you're planning offshore....


Hey guys, this is a clever boat with an incredibly workmanship. That curved seating is really a good sea berth . You have to be patient and look through this movie (the guy talks a lot...and in Swedish), and you will see how. The boat is not the 38, but a new 35 (also a very nice one) but the system is the same, on the 38 and 35. You are going to be amazed 






Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

I like.... any idea on the cost?


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> I like.... any idea on the cost?


Just an idea : Expensive

This is the kind of boat that is made the way the designer wants it without taking any costs into consideration. I guess that someone that is on the market for a Halberg Rassy, a Malo, or a Najad, about this size and want a faster, more exclusive and seaworthy boat that would be admired everywhere, should take this one into consideration. I believe the price would not differ that much.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Yeah,... figured as much.. We would also be subject to 9% duty as it's not North American built...

- Off to buy a lottery ticket!


----------



## PCP

*Comfortina 39*

Faster, from the exclusive, impeccably well made boats, probably the most affordable one is the Comfortina 39. It is also the one I prefer. well I find the Diva nicer, but this one it is faster and has a huge stability (that's why he is fast, that and the sail area).

A very seaworthy boat with everything you need (or I should say I need ) for extensive cruising, in the smallest package.

And when I say fast, I really mean fast. On the sail-test by the German magazine "Yacht" (serious guys) the speeds with 6K of wind and flat water were:

At *42º-5.4 60º-5.6 90º-6.2 120º-5.2 180º-4.8 *

And that is no event the best performing area of the boat (light winds) this boat is even better when things get rough. This boat only needs to reef with winds over 20k and that means lots of POWER .

I have been inside this boat several times and it is just beautiful, trust me

The price for a very well equipped boat should be around 260 000 euros (without European taxes, I mean export price).










































































http://www.comfortina.co.uk/pdfs/comfortina-39.pdf

Comfortina 39 - Luxury Sailing Yachts, Southampton

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Do not know what it looks like, other than following in the footsteps of the 409, Jeanneau will have a 439 at the Paris boat show. I find a link in a bit.

Marty

here we go
Sun Odyssey 439


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409*

Marty I don't know how you manage it but in what regards Jeanneau you are the man

I have found the 409 interior great, but I confess that the exterior looked a bit "effeminate" to me.

This one looks perfect. That's a very nice boat. I only hope the interior to be as good as the one on the 409



















Sun Odyssey 439

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 41*

Guys, dream boats are dream boats, and will be someone's reality, but not mine. Just too expensive for me.

For the kind of budget I have I believe that I have made my choice (of course in the meantime something more interesting could appear ). Well I haven't really decided what is going to be my budget. I don't want to spend everything on a boat, I want to have some money to have fun cruising with the boat

For now, for a budget of around 125 000 euros (more Vat) I would pick the Elan 350, hands down. I have never been inside one and I need to check if the storage and interior space is really enough. I will take a look at one at the Paris boat show.

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

For a budget of around 150 000 euros (more Vat) I would pick the Elan 380. I know well this one and I love it. But I would not buy one right now:

I would wait till next year to have a look at the new Salona 38. If it turns out as beautiful as the new 41 I would probably chose that one. Why? because they are a smaller company that allows some boat customization and because they have an inox steel grid inside the boat that takes all the stress from the keel and shrouds, making it a stronger boat. If you really ask they even will put more ballast on the bulb (the grid can easily take it) and that will give you a more forgivable and safer boat, a boat that can be reefed later, an easier boat, in a word, a better cruising boat. And it will be fast anyway, it will not be 300kg more that it will make it slower (unless you are a racer) and probably it will make it even a faster boat with strong winds and heavy seas .

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

For a Budget of 180 000 euros (more Vat) I would have the new Salona 41.
It has all the advantages that I mentioned about the 38 and it is a very beautiful boat. The only snag would be that it has not a hull port view and that's important for me and even more to my wife, but the boat has just the right spot to put it and I know they will put one there if you really insist.

It costs about the same as the Elan 410 (I like also that one) and it is probably even faster and to my eyes, more beautiful. It is also a narrower boat and that will give it a more comfortable sea motion even if that translates in a marginal bigger heeling.

I have been at the factory this summer and I was very pleased with what I saw. Enthusiastic people doing with pride a nice boat, people that care about quality and use the best high tech building technics. This boat can also be made in epoxy based vinylester and that will made it even stronger, lighter and osmose free.

I saw the first 41, almost finished...and what a boat. The right amount of storage and a good interior with two freezers. Just perfect if we discount the hull ports . I tried the cockpit and I know that I would just fit perfectly on this boat . If things went right for me, I would not need to look further, but with vat this one would cost about 230 000 euros and that is a lot of money Not saying that it is expensive for that boat, I think that Salona has one of the best quality/price rates on the market, but it still is a lot of money for a boat.

They released some photos, one of them unfortunately with a very bad taste deco that almost makes ugly a beautiful boat. I join also one with the inox grid steel being put in place. On the shipyard I saw one inside a boat. It looks really great, I would not have designed it better

(for the ones that are new to this thread there is a lot of information, photos and videos about the Elan 380 and the Elan 350. Use the thread search engine to find it) .























































http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/salona_41_.swf

new Salona 41 - Salona Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Django 7.70*

Guys, I would like to tell you about what is probably the biggest comparative boat test sail on the planet

It is made every year by the French magazine "Voile magazine". You think I am exaggerating? Well this year they had 23 boats, all at the same time on the water, most of them 2009 and 2010 models. For testing the boats,they took 3 days, the 7 journalists from the magazine, the 60 invited readers and 20 boat builders

The readers were chosen among the most experienced sailors and sailors that have and sail similar boats to the ones that they are going to test. That way they know what they are talking about They make several group boats, by size and by characteristics (cruiser, cruiser racer, classic and son on).

I had heard already lots of good things about this year overall winner but it comes as a surprise because it is not only a small boat but it is also a boat made by a very small boatyard. The winner is the Django 7.7 (25.6ft). The Django 7.7 has the mini racers as model, but comes with a very nice and functional interior, for its size.

One of the members of the jury was Alessandro di Benedeto, that recently has beaten the record for the the sailor that completed a solo non stop circumnavigation with the smallest boat...the boat was a mini (modified), of course

Some of the testers said about the Django: " I love it. That's a multivalent boat: It can do coastal cruising but can also do offshore cruising. The interior is plain but functional and a good quality one...Very good looking boat, powerful, fast...very easy to maneuver... the boat is so well balanced that we can let go the tiller while under spinnaker... interior luminous and panoramic."
































































Marée Haute - Home

http://www.bretagne-info-nautisme.fr/IMG/pdf/_Django_Caracteristics_31.12.09.pdf

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/img/illustrations/473-essai-django.jpg

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1060*

We had a look at the RM 1060 here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...62341-interesting-sailboats-8.html#post603492

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...2341-interesting-sailboats-30.html#post642408

There are not many boats that look better on real live than in the drawings. The RM 1060 does.

I find it just perfect for its size with a huge tankage for the boat size and a really big galley.

I have more photos, the first ones on the water and the boat looks really fast . Also an interesting detail on the twin Keel drawings (the boat can also have a deeper single keel).



























































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Seriously cool bit of kit. If I was a young bloke, I'd be hot to trot.

cheers

Andrew


----------



## myocean

Yes, this is a really interresing boat. 
I wonder if they will introduce a bigger one as well?
This is a bit too small for long haul sailing with family.

Ulf


----------



## nemier

The 1060 is THE boat for me, if I went for this size.
Slightly smaller by 2 1/2' is the First 30, which I'm leaning towards now.
BTW, I have now come up with a plan which I shall reveal later!


----------



## PCP

I will post a link to a great Elan 350 movie. This one will give you a real notion about the boat and its capabilities.

The place is Portoroz in Slovenia and the boat is the same that I had photographed (and posted on this thread) when I went there to test the Elan 380. The color of the interior fabric (dark brown) is just awful. Give it a just discount. that color can make any interior look bad (takes away all the light).

YouTube - VTS_01_1.VOB

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 37*

On post 399 I have said that I am waiting with great expectation the announcement of the new Salona 38 and that, if the boat is up to what I expect , it is possible that my search to the boat that fits me and my budget would come to an end .

The boat is coming to substitute the 37, that is already a very beautiful and fast boat. My respect for that boat and its performance was recently enhanced when I had a look at the results of the 2010 World ORCI Championship, that was raced in September.

The 37 that was racing there was not, contrary many other boats, a disguised racing boat posing as a cruiser racer. No, this one was a true cruiser racer that even had mounted a webasto heating system.

The boat finished overall in 3th place on its division, but not being a racer, what interested me was not the boat performance around the cans and in compensated time, but the boat performance on the offshore races and in real time (the championship was composed by 9 races, 7 inshore and two offshore).

On the shorter offshore race, raced with 30k winds, gusting 40, the Salona 37 finished first on real time with 5. 59.41 (2nd on compensated), beating a sharp and fast Dehler 39 (6.22.11) and a X 421 (6.16.15).

http://www.fsc.de/fileadmin/Regatta...RCi_Worlds_2010_-_Results_-_Beta_-_Race_3.pdf

On the longer offshore race, raced with "breezi offshore conditions", the Salona 37 finished first in real time (again): with 8.26.25 and (again) second in compensated time. The third boat in real time was the Dehler 39 with 8.46.28 (3rd on compensated ) and the Dufour 40 special finished fourth in real time with 8.47.44 (5th on compensated time).

http://www.fsc.de/fileadmin/Regatta...RCi_Worlds_2010_-_Results_-_Beta_-_Race_4.pdf

I have told you before, the Salona 37 is a fast boat&#8230;and I hope, the new 38 would be a faster one.














































Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

PCP,
What's happening Dude?
It's been like 3 days, & no update? You buying that boat or what?


----------



## PCP

*First 30 - Elan 310*

Hello Nemier,

The First 30 is a fantastic boat and it represents a turning point on the First line, to more mothern boats and hulls. I am just repeting what French are saying about it but I am sure they are right.

Its price is a well deserved one and I am sure that you can not have nothing similar at that price. The Elan 31 is also a very good boat, with more interior space, but I it is more expensive here. Marty says that they cost the same in the states (not regarding to this boat, but generally). If that's the case with the 31, comparing with the First 30, give it a try. go inside each boat and have a test sail. I am sure you are going to like both


























Regarding the 310 interior that you see on the movies, that is from a boat used for racing and it is "naked".

The cruising interior (with lots of storage) is this one:






Regarding new boats on this thread, I know of plenty of interesting recent boats that I have not posted here, but it's kind of boring to post and have no feed back, even if I can see that for each post I get 100 to 200 hits.

So guys, please participate more, give me your opinions, otherwise I will not be very motivated to post more.

Besides it's *BIG RACE* time and I am having a good time following it:

You like fast boats and racing, so join us here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/63937-solo-duo-transatlantic-races-16.html

Regards

Paulo


----------



## BenMP

Those are some great looking boats.
Are there any new full keel cruisers being built?


----------



## slap

BenMP said:


> Those are some great looking boats.
> Are there any new full keel cruisers being built?


Cape George Marine Works

Cape George Cutters § History § Cecil Lange / William Atkin / traditional full keel sailboat


----------



## sailingdog

IIRC, that's the Cape Dory 36 re-badged.


----------



## PCP

*Marieholm 33, Vancouver 28, Cape George 36*



slap said:


> Cape George Marine Works
> 
> Cape George Cutters § History § Cecil Lange / William Atkin / traditional full keel sailboat


Thats a very fine looking boat, but I would have preferred it with a more modern underwater, I mean, with a fin keel and a bulb.

Ben, regarding your question, the European ones that used to have full keels on the 70's and 80's, like Halberg Rassy or Malo, all moved up to some sort of fin keel, a more substantial one, if compared with faster cruising boats.

I can only remember an European brand that had proposed a new line of full keel cruisers. That was four years ago? and I never heard of them again. I don't know if they managed to make any boat, but I am quite sure they are out of business. They were nice looking boats, but heavy, slow and expensive. I Doubt that there is a market for that kind of boats.

There are some builders that still make old designs with a full keel, among them the 27 ft Vancouver (now 28ft). The bigger Vancouvers have already some sort of mix between a full keel and a Fin.

Vancouver 28

But the one I really like (I want one of those when I am really old ) is the Marieholm 33. It is still made and it is an incredible beautiful boat. I have been inside of one and I can tell you that has one wonderful interior, really cozy. One of the nicest I Have ever seen.

That's a boat that would make any sailor proud.

Skin

Take a look at the Video : M33 class

Marieholm | Zeiboot Friesland, motorboot Friesland, zeiljacht Friesland, motorjacht Friesland










Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

IIRC that CG is built a bit north or me, about 25 or s miles in Port Townsend. I would imaging there will ALWAYS be someone that wants a traditional design boat if you will, ie full keel. BUT, others would like the above WL to be traditional in look, but below WL, newer, faster style etc. Hence why Morris and Alerion seem to be doing well with there boats, traditional look above, below fast!

marty


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## myocean

Hi Paulo!
I had one more look to the RM yachts and think they look really interresting. This interior design looks very reasonable for long haul family cruising. Quite comfortable. I just wonder how fast they really are. Do you have an idea? As you know me I certainly constantly compare with the Pogo 12.50...
What I don't like so muchseeing e.g. the RM 1200 is the 'small' cockpit.
Ulf


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## PCP

*Paulo's boat old sketch*

Hey BenMP, I can not resist to show you a sketch that I have made 35 years ago about my dream boat










Regards

Paulo


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## mitiempo

Dog
The Cape George is an Atkin design, Little Bear I believe, that has been refined by Cecil Lange, owner of Cape George. It predates Cape Dory by several decades.


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## blt2ski

LOL paulo,

Looks like my old dream boat, ie a Westsail 32 as a teen. Sailed on a friend of my stepdads. Now one showed up in my marina the other day, see a few here and there, and I go, what the Heel did I want one of them for?

I would want the Salona over a WS or that boat you designed years ago! Altho pretty..... to a degree............

so what time is it over in portugal? about 1pm need to get out and do some more work, actually sunny out today! oh yeah, got a bullet sailing the other day!


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## PCP

*RM 1200 versus Pogo 12.50*



myocean said:


> Hi Paulo!
> I had one more look to the RM yachts and think they look really interresting. This interior design looks very reasonable for long haul family cruising. Quite comfortable. I just wonder how fast they really are. Do you have an idea? As you know me I certainly constantly compare with the Pogo 12.50...
> What I don't like so muchseeing e.g. the RM 1200 is the 'small' cockpit.
> Ulf


Yes I have. I had tried the RM 1200 because I had the same doubts you have.

The answer is there is no comparison. They are completely different boats. The Pogo is a nervous boat that needs the weakest of winds to sail. The Rm 1200 will need at least 7 or 8k wind to sail at 5.5K and has not the kind of feeling sports boats have at the tiller or at the wheel. The RM 1200 is a very stable boat made to eat miles on autopilot, with comfort and easiness.

The Pogo will do the same a lot faster, but you will have to reef a lot more times, be more at the tiller and would have a lot more work.

The RM can sail well with a big load (big tanks) while the Pogo will lose quickly its speed if you load it the way you can load the RM.

The interior of the RM 1200 is just great, near the perfection, the one from Pogo is quite basic.

The new RM 1060 looks a faster boat, if compared with the RM 1200 and the RM1300 is, like the RM 1200 an easy boat, but a faster one. There is one racing in the "Route du Rhum" and it is making a hell of a race, beating a lot of class 40 racing boats (but that is a naked boat ).

If you want a slightest slower boat than the Pogo, but with a much better interior, look at the Opium 39 (posted on this thread). That one has the same feeling as Pogo, and its the same kind of boat. I have sailed that one and it is really fast.

After a lot of research my conclusion (and that's the same as several boat journalists) is that a boat like the Pogo, if compared with a top sports boat like the J122 or a Salona 42 is only better if you want to cross oceans with it.

It is a boat made for the trade winds. For coastal cruising and in other points of sail the Pogo offers no advantage if compared with those boats and it is even slower and more uncomfortable against the wind. When the Pogo really excels is on the stability and speed on a downwind ride

That's why I would prefer a Salona 37 over the Pogo 1050. It is not that I will not cross oceans, but most of my sailing will be coastal, in changing winds .

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

I'm LOSING! dang it, did not know I was sailing in that race. SO why the heck am i spending my lunch updating my wifes computer for her biz books!?!?!?!?! dang it! better to be seasick on a boat, than in a house working on a computer trying to update the ram, which did ot work last night, now to imput the quickbooks program...........

Oh well, off to marina to pull weeds at YC I belong to, and get paid to take car of landscape, along with one other, look at a house that needs a new driveway............


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## tdw

Salona 41 looks the goods to me. Not to criticise the 37 but I do like the extra space (particularly in the galley) of the S41. Very nice indeed.

35 years ago Paulo, my dreams centred around



















I'm thinking we had similar dreams. Certainly no boat nor any crew inspired me more than the Hiscocks and Wanderer III.


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## Classic30

tdw said:


> 35 years ago Paulo, my dreams centred around
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking we had similar dreams. Certainly no boat nor any crew inspired me more than the Hiscocks and Wanderer III.


Interesting you should post that, Andrew. I've been reading Hiscock's books so much I bought the closest thing I could find!!  










Even though designed here in Oz three years before Wanderer III, the only significant difference between their boat and mine is that they had a slightly longer cabin, no doghouse and a tiny cockpit. Both boats drew on the LG Virtue extensively and the hull dimensions and lines are almost identical.

If this was your dream, we really MUST go for a sail sometime!! ..and I should stop reading sailing books.


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## tdw

Hartley18 said:


> Interesting you should post that, Andrew. I've been reading Hiscock's books so much I bought the closest thing I could find!!
> 
> Even though designed here in Oz three years before Wanderer III, the only significant difference between their boat and mine is that they had a slightly longer cabin, no doghouse and a tiny cockpit. Both boats drew on the LG Virtue extensively and the hull dimensions and lines are almost identical.
> 
> If this was your dream, we really MUST go for a sail sometime!! ..and I should stop reading sailing books.


Cameron, I think I mentioned at the time that I thought she had a bit of Laurent Giles and Wanderer about her. Any time I'm in Melbourne I'm most certainly up for a sail.

Now back to the plastic....

Paulo....we talked Sydney earlier on but did you see this ?


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## blt2ski

be still my beating/thumping heart! 

Sydneys have always had a place in my ooooo la la part of me. 

Sometimes i wish I sailed in Europe or Oz vs here in the states.


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## myocean

PCP said:


> Yes I have. I had tried the RM 1200 because I had the same doubts you have.
> 
> The answer is there is no comparison. (...)
> 
> The Pogo will do the same a lot faster, but you will have to reef a lot more times, be more at the tiller and would have a lot more work.


OK, seeing the displacement I assumed exactly this. The displacement seems to be a good measure for this, do you agree?
Regarding "a lot more work" I can imagine that the Pogo 12.50 would be easier to handle than the Pogo 10.50 as it has been simplified in some points.

What do you think about the effect of having a real good autopilot. The NKE Gyropilos used for the Pogos are really good. Vendee Globe boats can go on autopilot nearly all the time. Which level of technology is needed for that?



PCP said:


> The RM can sail well with a big load (big tanks) while the Pogo will lose quickly its speed if you load it the way you can load the RM.


Yes, right. But I still wonder about the absolute numbers. What would be a reasonable payload for a Pogo.



PCP said:


> If you want a slightest slower boat than the Pogo, but with a much better interior, look at the Opium 39 (posted on this thread). That one has the same feeling as Pogo, and its the same kind of boat. I have sailed that one and it is really fast.


I am thinking about chatering one for a week or so next March. There is one in the Antilles  . However I think the lifting keel version is not so nice inside due to the space needed for this feature. The Pogo swing keel is better regarding this but probably not as robust so the boat can stand on it (as the Opium).



PCP said:


> (...)is only better if you want to cross oceans with it.


Yes, trade winds are the best, sure. I wonder if the additional comfort is really required (for me) for a full circumnavigation. Would be great to test such boats for several weeks. But that is nearly impossible.

Regards,
Ulf


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## PCP

myocean said:


> OK, seeing the displacement I assumed exactly this. The displacement seems to be a good measure for this, do you agree?


Yes, but not in what regards going upwind, except in very light winds. I have read a very interesting test between a J133 and a boat like the Pogo 12,50, but more expensive (I don't remember the boat name right now). Both boats at the water at the same time. I was surprised with the results. There was a lot of situations where the J133 was faster...and more comfortable. Both boats have about the same price tag.



myocean said:


> What do you think about the effect of having a real good autopilot. The NKE Gyropilos used for the Pogos are really good. Vendee Globe boats can go on autopilot nearly all the time. Which level of technology is needed for that?


You would have not any problem with a Pogo under auto pilot. But because it is a much more powerfull boat, you will have to adjust the sails (and reef) a lot more than with a RM 1200. That would be fine with me , but that's just a fact.



myocean said:


> Yes, right. But I still wonder about the absolute numbers. What would be a reasonable payload for a Pogo.


The Pogo can carry a considerable payload, the problem is that when you load more the boat, it will need more speed and wind to start planning. I guess that if you want a really fast boat, and considering the Pogo 12.50, you should not carry more than a 1000 kg, and that includes water, fuel sailors and luggages. I don't remember the max load of the boat, but I am sure that it is over a 2000kg load.



myocean said:


> I am thinking about chatering one for a week or so next March. There is one in the Antilles  . However I think the lifting keel version is not so nice inside due to the space needed for this feature. The Pogo swing keel is better regarding this but probably not as robust so the boat can stand on it (as the Opium).


I have tried that, one year ago. That Opium 39 is not available for charter there anymore, but it is for sale at a very good price. I don't have any idea of the boat condition and that Opium is one from the previous series (2005), not made by Wauquiez, with not so good interiors and probably not a so good construction, but it was a well considered boat, in what regards its quality.

Instead of chartering one, why don't you test sail that one? preferably sooner because I don't know if in Mach the boat will still be for sale.

ALIZE YACHT DESIGN OPIUM 39 used boat for sale. The Yacht Market online boat sales and charters.

The only reason I had not a look at that boat, is because it is faraway...and I believe that is true for all Europeans that know and like that boat. Here, similar boats have been sold for a lot more money.

Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

Meanwhile there are more than 10 new photos (in action & interior) of Pogo 12.50 on the pogostructures website available.

Looks light...


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## tdw

PCP said:


> Yes, on post 174 we have talked about this one, but I believe they had not yet made one, so no photos, other than the plans, were posted.
> 
> That interior looks functional, even if a bit too "white plastic" to my taste. But that boat is gorgeous, I would say sexy . I am going to look if I can find more pictures
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,

There are some more pics. If you don't I'll post some later on today. I didn't want to clutter up the thread if we had already covered this boat.

The Sydney's are a pretty cool boat. Not for living on or long term cruising but hotsy tottsy for round the buoys and the occasional offshore, if that is your thing.

Now, you know that I like the Pogo for what she is but for a 'cruising' circumnavigation I don't get it. Ok, so I am a much more laid back sailor than you or it seems MyOcean but out at sea in anything other than really calm conditions 15 knots and up is simply going to be bloody uncomfortable and a hell of a lot of work. I appreciate the argument about getting there as fast as possible but as long as I have a boat capable of topping ten or so knots in the right conditions then I will be a happy chappy indeed. If I want a burst of 15knts then I'll come sailing with you guys. 

ps - not really any other pics of the Syd 37...


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## gusmus

43 Pages and I'm astounded. 10% of the posts on here are about how the boat actually sails and about its seakeeping qualities. 90% of the posts are about how big the bloody shower is. Jeez. Buy a caravan or go sailing bluewater and then decide how big the shower needs to be after a force 8 or 9 kicks you in the butt.


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## PCP

gusmus said:


> 43 Pages and I'm astounded. 10% of the posts on here are about how the boat actually sails and about its seakeeping qualities. 90% of the posts are about how big the bloody shower is. Jeez. Buy a caravan or go sailing bluewater and then decide how big the shower needs to be after a force 8 or 9 kicks you in the butt.


    

For a first post it is not bad:laugher

But I guess that you have not read the thread. The vast majority of the boats posted here are far away from the ones that will provide the best service at marina. The vast majority are boats that are much more at ease at sea than at a marina

Regarding bluewater boats, there are some here that are true bluewater boats, some that can cross safely oceans and some that are essentially coastal cruisers.

Why the hell should you think that a thread about interesting boats should be only about specialized bluewater designed cruisers? Do you think those are the only interesting boats?

Do you know that sailors interested in those boats are just a very small minority and that among that small minority only a few uses them for what they are designed to do? Do you know that all types of boats are design compromises and that a specialized bluewater boat will be a poor coastal cruiser and a worst liveaboard boat?

Don't you not know that the vast majority of sailors coastal cruise most of their time, even those that occasionally cross oceans? Don't you know that is the reason why the large majority of the market is oriented for boats that excel in living aboard, coastal cruising with some variable bluewater capacity?

I really don't understand your point

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*On design - Pogo*



tdw said:


> Paulo,
> 
> ....
> Now, you know that I like the Pogo for what she is but for a 'cruising' circumnavigation I don't get it. Ok, so I am a much more laid back sailor than you or it seems MyOcean but out at sea in anything other than really calm conditions 15 knots and up is simply going to be bloody uncomfortable and a hell of a lot of work. I appreciate the argument about getting there as fast as possible but as long as I have a boat capable of topping ten or so knots in the right conditions then I will be a happy chappy indeed. If I want a burst of 15knts then I'll come sailing with you guys.
> ..


The interior of the Pogo is set for extended cruising, spartan way I concede, but that's all about what you are set for. That's like road cruising in a Ferrari. No one is saying that it is more comfortable than a Mercedes but for some it is the fun that matters, it is not about arriving to some place, it is the way you do it.

That logic is the same when I cruise with my speedster on the mountain roads of Europe: I chose always the more twisting roads, the ones with the best scenery and that would provide the more exhilarating driving . Most of the drivers I know would think that the I am mad for taking those roads to get from A to B. But then they don't drive speedsters and don't understand that for me the pleasure is on the road, not in arriving the fastest and more comfortably I can to the B place .

Regarding comfort you are right and wrong. On a circumnavigation by the right side, you get trade winds most of the time, and in those conditions the Pogo is a perfect boat, super fast, super stable, little work and comfortable. You can let it go on autopilot all the time. It will be safer on autopilot doing 16k than other type of boats doing 10K and in these would need a solid hand at the wheel.

But If you do mainly coastal cruising you will get a lot of head wind, and the Pogo is not the best boat to do it. Not that he can not do it fast, but it is a lot less comfortable than a less beamier boat and not much faster than some, because he can not point so much to the wind. Some very fast cruiser-racers will even be more fast than a Pogo on that sail position.

Regards

Paulo


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## BenMP

PCP said:


> Hey BenMP, I can not resist to show you a sketch that I have made 35 years ago about my dream boat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Beautiful. I have a hard time no going for the small ship even when I know that for the most part they don't preform as well as newer designs.


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## gusmus

PCP said:


> For a first post it is not bad:laugher
> 
> But I guess that you have not read the thread. The vast majority of the boats posted here are far away from the ones that will provide the best service at marina. The vast majority are boats that are much more at ease at sea than at a marina
> 
> Regarding bluewater boats, there are some here that are true bluewater boats, some that can cross safely oceans and some that are essentially coastal cruisers.
> 
> Why the hell should you think that a thread about interesting boats should be only about specialized bluewater designed cruisers? Do you think those are the only interesting boats?
> PS. Your drawing reminds me very much of a Harrison Butler. Lovely boats.
> 
> Do you know that sailors interested in those boats are just a very small minority and that among that small minority only a few uses them for what they are designed to do? Do you know that all types of boats are design compromises and that a specialized bluewater boat will be a poor coastal cruiser and a worst liveaboard boat?
> 
> Don't you not know that the vast majority of sailors coastal cruise most of their time, even those that occasionally cross oceans? Don't you know that is the reason why the large majority of the market is oriented for boats that excel in living aboard, coastal cruising with some variable bluewater capacity?
> 
> I really don't understand your point
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo. Thanks for the reply and yes, I have read the thread in "Almost" its entirity, which, is the reason I felt the need to post as I did. Looking through the lists and photos of most of the boats mentioned I'd have to say that there are a huge amount of non sailing dreamers and/or marina dwellers posting. There are basically three types of sailor. The racer, The cruiser, AND, The Marina dweller. All three have specific needs when choosing a boat, but, when looking at interiors which will obviously become exagerated tumble dryers in anything above a force 4 I'll stick to my last post. Buy a caravan.
On another point. The POGO. Why on earth would someone want to cruise such a thing. Race, for sure because the need to be totally knackered after a race means that you've given it your best. To be totally knackered after a cruise seems to me to be either masochistic or simply plain stupid. OK, you'll get there faster,,, but it'll take you twice as long to recover from the effort. Personally, I'd rather enjoy all of it. Life isn't all about adrenalin or hot tubs in the forepeak. Sometimes a seakindly hull and the basics are all it takes.
PS. your drawing reminds me very much of a Harrison Butler. Lovely boats


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## blt2ski

gusmus,

I have JUST the boat for you......I'll look it up, it is interesting, and has not been shown or disCUSSed as of yet........

marty


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## blt2ski

Found it......LOLOLOLOL










This should suit gusmus VERY WELL:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


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## tdw

PCP said:


> The interior of the Pogo is set for extended cruising, spartan way I concede, but that's all about what you are set for. That's like road cruising in a Ferrari. No one is saying that it is more comfortable than a Mercedes but for some it is the fun that matters, it is not about arriving to some place, it is the way you do it.
> 
> That logic is the same when I cruise with my speedster on the mountain roads of Europe: I chose always the more twisting roads, the ones with the best scenery and that would provide the more exhilarating driving . Most of the drivers I know would think that the I am mad for taking those roads to get from A to B. But then they don't drive speedsters and don't understand that for me the pleasure is on the road, not in arriving the fastest and more comfortably I can to the B place .
> 
> Regarding comfort you are right and wrong. On a circumnavigation by the right side, you get trade winds most of the time, and in those conditions the Pogo is a perfect boat, super fast, super stable, little work and comfortable. You can let it go on autopilot all the time. It will be safer on autopilot doing 16k than other type of boats doing 10K and in these would need a solid hand at the wheel.
> 
> But If you do mainly coastal cruising you will get a lot of head wind, and the Pogo is not the best boat to do it. Not that he can not do it fast, but it is a lot less comfortable than a less beamier boat and not much faster than some, because he can not point so much to the wind. Some very fast cruiser-racers will even be more fast than a Pogo on that sail position.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Ah my friend we disagree......to some extent anyway. Very little cruising is done in the down south after all. OK, for a circumnavigation the Pogo may be hard to beat but not , in my opinion, for long term cruising which is largely spent at anchor or sailing in quite variable conditions. You see for me I would rather cruise Europe in an A5 TDI. Still fast but more laid back. The Ferrari simply does not answer my needs. Good for a day of fun but not for a week. Nonetheless I would still take the twist secondary roads because as you say better scenery.....and you pass by better restaurants.


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## blt2ski

I'll take a slightly spartan interior of say the Pogo or sydney, granted fiberglass vs wood. Gelcoat is spray the soap on, wipe dry with towel. Wood is the same to clean, but one has to sand and varnish, or oil or _______ upon occasion! Besides, it seems as if when I have cruised, I am in the cockpit more than the cabin. Then down to sleep, eat etc. One does not need much for this. Kinda like when I climbed mt rainer here in Wa, some 14500' in elevation. small tent, what you carry on your back, make sure you do not fall in a crevase......ah the days of being young and maybe not so smart as today.........would still go back tomorrow...........maybe I am not so smart today either......hmmmmm.......

Time for bed me thinks..............


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## PCP

*On Design - Pogo*



tdw said:


> Ah my friend we disagree......to some extent anyway. Very little cruising is done in the down south after all. OK, for a circumnavigation the Pogo may be hard to beat but not , in my opinion, for long term cruising which is largely spent at anchor or sailing in quite variable conditions. You see for me I would rather cruise Europe in an A5 TDI. Still fast but more laid back. The Ferrari simply does not answer my needs. Good for a day of fun but not for a week. Nonetheless I would still take the twist secondary roads because as you say better scenery.....and you pass by better restaurants.


I don't understand In what is our disagreement, except if you consider that everybody is not entitled to travel the way each person find more agreeable or more amusing. You would chose an Audi, I would chose a Ferrari, then a Lotus then a Lamborghini, then a Maclaren then...you get my drift...and it seems that you don't know what is fast, regarding cars.

Again, I like to cruise but I like as much to SAIL, or if we put it on road terms, I like as much to drive as to travel. And regarding the pleasure for one that really likes to drive, an Audi A5 is a caravan, if compared with a sport car. It is a effective machine but not a pleasure machine or a fast machine, like a Ferrari.

I think you can agree that some would value that pleasure, in a boat or in a car, differently than you would do, so much that they would prefer a far less comfortable machine (like the Ferrari) to a very comfortable one (the Audi A5), providing both can do the job, meaning, cruising.

I agree with you that a Pogo is not an ideal sailing around boat. That's why I would pick a Salona over a Pogo. But that's just me and my personal choice, taking into consideration that I will not cross many times Oceans and that I will not sail many times on trade winds. The real problem with the Pogo (besides the upwind harder motion) is it's spartan interior (Spartan but functional). But that would not be a problem for some, neither the harder motion and in that case the Pogo is a lot of money for the boat.

Your ideal boat would never be the same as mine. The Salona is not a Ferrari, but it is a Porche . A bit more rational, a bit more comfortable, but even so a kind of very fast sport's boat with good cruising capacities.

For you I would recommend a Dufour 425 or a RM 1200, kind of an Audi 5 type of boats, if you get my drift

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

gusmus said:


> ..
> On another point. The POGO. Why on earth would someone want to cruise such a thing. Race, for sure because the need to be totally knackered after a race means that you've given it your best. To be totally knackered after a cruise seems to me to be either masochistic or simply plain stupid. OK, you'll get there faster,,, but it'll take you twice as long to recover from the effort. Personally, I'd rather enjoy all of it. Life isn't all about adrenalin or hot tubs in the forepeak. Sometimes a seakindly hull and the basics are all it takes.


Nobody is questioning your tastes. But you are questioning other sailors tastes in what regards cruising and sailing.

If nobody wanted that kind of boat for cruising, the Pogo 10.50, a cruising boat with a swinging keel, would not have a 3 year waiting list. In a time where many boatbuilders experience difficulties that means that there are a significant number of sailors that want that choice for cruising and sailing.

Do you think those are inexperienced sailors and don't know what they are buying? Think again, their typical buyer is a very experienced sailor that knows exactly what we wants and why. Funny thing is that they are of very different ages. I mean there are young and old sailors buying Pogo and that is not probably such a surprise since its designer, Jean Michel Finot, one of the most successful boat designers (hundreads of boats designed) had chose that particular one has its personal boat, for cruising, with its wife. Did I say that he is about 70 year's old? It seems evident that he knows exactly what kind of boat he wants and why.

Regards

Paulo


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## COOL

PCP said:


> Again, I like to cruise but I like as much to SAIL, or if we put it on road terms, I like as much to drive as to travel. And regarding the pleasure for one that really likes to drive, an Audi A5 is a caravan, if compared with a sport car. It is a effective machine but not a pleasure machine or a fast machine, like a Ferrari.


This statement sums it up for me also, I would much rather
cruise in a race boat than race in a cruising boat. I enjoy
getting places under sail, and the trip is every bit as important
as the destination. In general, a spartan race boat has all the
accomodation I require for cruising, but the Pogo, like all 'Open'
class designs, wants to be sailed at large angles of heel all
of the time. This would get old on a cruise.
This thread has truely brought some intesting boats to
the light, great job guys. I would like to see some of these
boats out on the water, but all the marinas I have seen
are over populated by CataBeneHunters with in the mast
furling that rely on their Yanmars for primary locomotion.


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## PCP

*Evosion 34*

OK, too much talk

New boat. Marty,this one is going to make you envy, and please don't ask about the price, because it is not cheap, for sure.

It comes from the land of beautiful boats, Denmark (X-Yachts, Luffe, Nordship) and its the Vivace 34, a gorgeous little fast boat with a great interior. Words are not needed, the pictures and the movie tell it all

What you think about it guys?




































































































http://www.evosion.dk/wp-content/uploads/Specification-Vivace-ENGLISH.pdf

EVOSION » Concept






Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

*Great*

Indeed, land of beautiful boats! This looks really great!
Ulf


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## tdw

Paulo...'disagreement' said in the friendliest of terms. 

Reason I said Audi A6 was to emphasise the cruising. I'm happy to be poddling along. Maybe I am just getting old. Mind you I'd love to have a drive in a Bugatti..then again reality is if I was in the market for something low slung I'd probably go R8. 

I guess my point was that if I wanted a boat for weekedning or for just a few weeks on board at a time then something like the Pogo would be fine and a lot of fun. I'd not want one as my home, for that something like the Luffe would be more my speed. 

ps - I think for what you are after the Salona would be a fine choice. I like that boat a lot.


----------



## tdw

Very pretty. Damn those Scandinavians have a sense of quality and craftsmanship. Look at that tiller. What a joy to use and to simply look at. Beautiful.

To have all that in such a simple racey boat is quite exceptional.


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

For how I sail etc, how does one say "PUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRFECT!" the cockpit layout, fantastic. Interior, I can see some fixes, but I am being nit picky to the nth degree! 

I can not see a true floorplan drawing, but I am pretty sure I could draw out the floorplan if need be. I do not see an ice chest or equal. That is the only thing I picture wrong. With that, I am sure it is there, but it's the where!

I could live quite happily with that boat for a good many years. Interior looks big enough to suit my wife. Its quick. I could cruise it here in the salish sea, ie puget sound north to BC islands etc. If I wanted to do a circumnav of Vancouver Island I could, or up to Alaska on the inside passage.........

Looks sailable with 1 or 2 folks easy enough, everything gets to the helms man for the most part, 2 folks could easily sail it.......perfect keeps coming up. I definetly have a new favorite boat. Now to show to spouse! 

I have to admit, from a cost point, the new 1st 35 would be my choice at this moment.........but this Evosion........ droools......


----------



## COOL

PCP said:


> New boat. What you think about it guys?


I like it.
The hull form is reminicent of the Elliott 9m from 1991.
The interior is a little bit angular and Ikea looking.
I can't quite figure out that backstay arrangement,
and what is up with those helmsman planks?


----------



## tdw

Hey Marty...

EVOSION » Feature










I'm thinking front opening fridge almost opposite the stove.



blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> For how I sail etc, how does one say "PUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRFECT!" the cockpit layout, fantastic. Interior, I can see some fixes, but I am being nit picky to the nth degree!
> 
> I can not see a true floorplan drawing, but I am pretty sure I could draw out the floorplan if need be. I do not see an ice chest or equal. That is the only thing I picture wrong. With that, I am sure it is there, but it's the where!
> 
> I could live quite happily with that boat for a good many years. Interior looks big enough to suit my wife. Its quick. I could cruise it here in the salish sea, ie puget sound north to BC islands etc. If I wanted to do a circumnav of Vancouver Island I could, or up to Alaska on the inside passage.........
> 
> Looks sailable with 1 or 2 folks easy enough, everything gets to the helms man for the most part, 2 folks could easily sail it.......perfect keeps coming up. I definetly have a new favorite boat. Now to show to spouse!
> 
> I have to admit, from a cost point, the new 1st 35 would be my choice at this moment.........but this Evosion........ droools......


----------



## Faster

Looks like a great sailing platform, but I'm with Cool... the interior is far too angular/Ikea-ish (my beef with some of the new Benes too..) a bit tight/small and that tunnel crawl into the aft berth looks like a head banger to me. Joinery overall is not very nautical/yachtie..

But she'd be a hoot to bang around the buoys!


----------



## PCP

*Evosion 34*



COOL said:


> I like it.
> The hull form is reminicent of the Elliott 9m from 1991.
> The interior is a little bit angular and Ikea looking.
> I can't quite figure out that backstay arrangement,
> and what is up with those helmsman planks?


I don't agree with the Elliott comparison. Sure the Elliot 9m was a great boat, but the transom and the way beam is carried backwards make this a completelly diferent design.



















I agree about the interior, but for what is close to a racing machine it seems to me a cosy interior, better than the normal "almost" racing boat.

Regarding the backstay, it seems that you have missed one of the most interesting charactheristics of this boat:

"Vivace introduces a twist control system - E-twist. E-twist controls the twister at the top for better control and performance. The deck is kept free of ropes, and the cockpit is large and functional for many uses. Vivace can sail with the cockpit tent held up, with a small terrace astern.

E-Twist - an innovation in the sailing world. Sail twist is one of the main parameters for a sail performance and how the boat sails. E-Twist is a twist control system that makes it possible to control and define the sail twist, how the sail opens. A true twist increases the sail's performance, and improves the boat's sailing characteristics. Reduces drift, heel, and increases traction. Proper twist starts at the top, and decreases continuously down. E-Twist sacrifice a small part of the sail, to make a much bigger part more effective. Subtotal an increased efficacy and a better interaction between the headsail and mainsail. A system that is simple to control, and not least, a boat that is faster and easier to control."

EVOSION » Information

I don't know if the system is as effective as they say, but I can tell you that the sail shape looks terrific:










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Finn Flyer 34*



Faster said:


> .... the interior is far too angular/Ikea-ish (my beef with some of the new Benes too..) a bit tight/small and that tunnel crawl into the aft berth looks like a head banger to me. Joinery overall is not very nautical/yachtie..
> 
> ....!


No problem , just for you, a very fast one with a nicer interior (even if slighty less interesting in what regards sailing caracheteristics).

From the land of Swans, the Finn Flyer 34:










































Finn Flyer 34 / FF 34

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Fuzzy,

If the ice chest or equal went where you describe, that would be in the engine compartment! Probably NOT a good place for refrigeration of any sort, be it ice, dc/ac powered.

Finn flyer is nice too, reminds me a bit of the Finn Gulf, which I have seen. 

Wife would like that one a bit better.

marty


----------



## Faster

blt2ski said:


> Finn flyer is nice too, reminds me a bit of the Finn Gulf, which I have seen.
> 
> Wife would like that one a bit better.
> 
> marty


Hell, *I* like that one better.. Paulo that's the one for me indeed. Interesting with the dark cabin sole.. looks better than I'd have imagined. (Carbon, right? ) Not Catalina 'roomy', but she should sail well enough and keep a first mate satisfied.

This would fit nicely in our existing slip, too, unlike the Luffe 43DS - and might even leave our kids some inheritance too.


----------



## HDChopper

Man you guys are killing me with all these Beautiful boats I could Never Ever have..
I won't look in here anymore


----------



## tdw

blt2ski said:


> Fuzzy,
> 
> If the ice chest or equal went where you describe, that would be in the engine compartment! Probably NOT a good place for refrigeration of any sort, be it ice, dc/ac powered.
> 
> Finn flyer is nice too, reminds me a bit of the Finn Gulf, which I have seen.
> 
> Wife would like that one a bit better.
> 
> marty


ah..yes...wheedle your way out of that one rodent.....duh !!!

Finn flyer...lovely interior....very nice indeed.

HDChopper.....hang in there....few of us can afford these goodies but we can dream can't we ?

Fast......have you considered leaving them in a basket outside an orphanage ? Hell, I'd sell the Wombet to get my hands on a Luffe....


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Fuzzy,
> 
> ....
> Finn flyer is nice too, reminds me a bit of the Finn Gulf, which I have seen.
> 
> ......
> marty


Marty, Finngulf are wonderful boats with great interiors, but the hull from 331 is a bit older in design, the same with the Arcona 34.

The "modern" boat in both ranges is the 43, not that I mind to have a Finngulf 41 or an Arcona 40 

http://www.arconayachts.com/index.asp?p=340_Gallery

http://www.finngulf.com/range/fg331/

But there are some others with hull designs as modern as the Finn Flyer and not so expensive even if the interiors are not so good.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 34*



HDChopper said:


> Man you guys are killing me with all these Beautiful boats I could Never Ever have..
> I won't look in here anymore


Ok, killing you softly with this boat

This one is also beautiful and as fast as the others, the interior is good (it can have 2 freezers), but not as well finished as the Nordic boats. The good news is : This is an affordable boat, slightly less than an Elan 350 and probably only a bit more than the First 35.

































































http://salonayachts1.mmksystems.com/documents/yare0909_Salona.pdf

http://salonayachts1.mmksystems.com/documents/s34_vela.pdf

Description - Salona Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EVOSION

*Evosion 34 comments*

Hi there

Thanks for the fine words.
I would like to add a few comments / answers.

First of all, I had to change the name of the boat from Vivace to Evosion 34 - Vivace

The helmsman planks is made to make the reverse German sheet possible. Made from a desire to have a 2 meter wide and functional cockpit. Madres width.

Evosion One is a prototype and helmsman position should still be optimized.
There is a large refrigerator in the boat under the seat on the port side.

T-twist is designed to remove unwanted resistance in the sail. E-twist is very effective in some circumstances. Especially in light wind the boat leaves the slip much better through the water. At the same time makes the boat easier to steer as the sail does not stall through a wider track.

The interior is made of White oiled oak, and smoked oak on the floor. There is no laminate wood in the boat. This boat is first class handwork. Not a module build boat. All bulkheads is laminated to the hull, and all parts is glued together making a very stable and stiff construction.

Yes the entrance in the back is too small, but this is also changed.

If you have any further questions about the boat/sails, please ask.

Best regards
Lars From
EVOSION


----------



## blt2ski

Lars,

As I said above, your boat is about as perfect as I have seen for how I sail. Now if I could figure out how to afford one, and ship it to the left coast of NAmerica....

Thank you for the "where is" the fridge. That needs to be added to the description part of website, or I just plain did not see it! Altho for me, an Ice chest is just as good or better than an AC/DC option fridge. That could get a bit interesting with it in a seat, for draining of the water any how!

Paulo,
I was not trying to say that the Finn flyer/Finngulf were in the same league from a current design statement, other than they look similar in built quality look and feel.

Marty


----------



## tdw

How good is that when the man comes on to answer and explain ?

Fabulous.

Thanks Lars.


Paulo,
Seems to me that Salona are really hitting the mark. To me they are a nice compromise between performance and cruising comfort.


----------



## bb74

gusmus said:


> Paulo. Thanks for the reply and yes, I have read the thread in "Almost" its entirity, which, is the reason I felt the need to post as I did. Looking through the lists and photos of most of the boats mentioned I'd have to say that there are a huge amount of non sailing dreamers and/or marina dwellers posting. There are basically three types of sailor. The racer, The cruiser, AND, The Marina dweller. All three have specific needs when choosing a boat, but, when looking at interiors which will obviously become exagerated tumble dryers in anything above a force 4 I'll stick to my last post. Buy a caravan.
> On another point. The POGO. Why on earth would someone want to cruise such a thing. Race, for sure because the need to be totally knackered after a race means that you've given it your best. To be totally knackered after a cruise seems to me to be either masochistic or simply plain stupid. OK, you'll get there faster,,, but it'll take you twice as long to recover from the effort. Personally, I'd rather enjoy all of it. Life isn't all about adrenalin or hot tubs in the forepeak. Sometimes a seakindly hull and the basics are all it takes.
> PS. your drawing reminds me very much of a Harrison Butler. Lovely boats


So you like traditional, easy motion boats.... No need to get on Paulo's case about sharing all the boat designs he's seen and inferring they are for the rat pack of swabbies unworthy of understanding "what sailing is all about"...

To each his own. Having sailed both "old shoes" and modern desings for extended periods (Grand Suprise, Pogo 850, First 31.7, A35, J109, and skiff on Open 5.70/5.00 etc) I don't see the downside of these rides beyond amenities and woodgrain...


----------



## Hollymari

*I know my reply is probably WAY LATE and already covered but...*

Hey so - I was looking over the photos of these babies and WOW - they look amazing! I'm lazy so - what are these babies going for USED? I know I couldn't possibly afford a new one...

HollyMari A.


----------



## PCP

*Arcona 410*

I was waiting for this boat...I waited so much that I have not money to buy it anymore

This is probably the boat that I would buy if I had the money for it. It is more expensive than the Dufour 40e, Elan 410 and Salona 41, but the quality of the interior is different (very good) and its price is not so "impossible" as the one from the Finngulf 41, or the Sweden 42.

It is probably almost as fast as the Salona 41 and the difference would not be important for me (I am not a racer). This boat, like the Salona has the keel and shrouds efforts distributed through a steel frame, and that's an important safety factor for me.

I like the Arcona 40 (the actual model), but its stern was not yet a very modern one, and I mean in what concerns the shape of the hull. The new 430 has a more modern hull and the 410 seems perfect.

I also like the combination of traditional looks with top performance and top modern design in what regards hull shape, Keel and rigs.

The designer says about it:

"10 years ago presented Arcona 400 - my goal then was to design the perfect combination of cruiser and racer - both for coastal as of the ocean. 10 years, 160 boats made, and countless subsequent rankings speak for themselves, Arcona 400 was the design that many consider to be the forerunner in the class.
The trend has since moved with incredible speed, measurement rules ... stimulates now boats with high stiffness and larger sail area ..
...
My mission and goal is to create ..a modern and easy to handle 40-foot winner - a winner for the family who want to sail and an obvious winner in the results.
...
The Arcona 410 will be easy, stable and provide a sailing experience far beyond the ordinary.
The hull is a direct evolution of the series that began with the Arcona 400 which is continuously refined until the latest model... the 410 is and will be a direct development of this hull form.

The hull, deck and inner liner will be produced by the infusion method which ensures optimized weight and quality.
Arcona 410 will have a sail plan with non-overlapping jib and one, relatively speaking, somewhat larger mainsail than previous models...

Stefan Qviberg
Naval Architect
Västervik in October 2010




























http://www.arconayachts.se/_cur/nyheter/Arcona_410_PrelTechSpec_101108.pdf
http://www.arconayachts.se/_cur/nyheter/A410_Sailplan_101114_web.pdf

What do you think of this one? Too classical? Or do you have, like me, a soft spot for classical designs?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

It's a beautiful boat Paulo, I love it.


----------



## Faster

Clever..the saillocker forward is a good use of space and it pushes the V berth aft, creating a lot more foot room for a couple. One of my main beefs lately is the V berths pushed so far forward that they come to an actual V at the foot.

The rest is traditional but no less functional.. has one been built yet? I wonder if they're available without teak decking..


----------



## blt2ski

Faster,

One thing I have noticed about sales info, is European designed boats seem to show them with teak decks, where as N American builders show them with out! It could be that Europeans prefer boats with teak, vs us with out too! Also since many race IRC, wt is taken into the ratings, vs here with PHRF, the teak decks would not get taken in to account. 

I too prefer with out the teak decks, but, if someone wants them, whom am I to say that is the wrong item for their boat!

Marty


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> I was waiting for this boat...I waited so much that I have not money to buy it anymore
> 
> What do you think of this one? Too classical? Or do you have, like me, a soft spot for classical designs?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Beautiful. Excellent cruising boat by the look of it. I'm more than happy with classical looks so i'm in total agreement with you mate.

I can't access the website for some reason. Would like to see more.

Cheers

Andrew

ps - cannot find much on the 410 but looking at the older model 400 they are somewhat light on for fuel and water.


----------



## PCP

*Arcona 430*

Faster, No, this is just a design...yet. The Designer says that the project was finished late October.

Marty, that's true that Europeans prefer teak decks on cruising boats. On cruising racers not always. Almost all boats come as standard without teak decks, even Halberg-Rassies, but in what regards those it would be hard to find one without a teack deck, that is an option .

Many Arconas out there have not a teak deck, in fact the 430 I have saw in the Dusseldorf boat show had not one.

I guess that I should have posted already about the Arcona 430. It was last year European boat of the year and it is an incredible boat. Traditionally looking, but sharp and fast, with great interiors. As very interesting items, it has the steel grid that I have talked about, a system to absorb shocks in the keel in case of grounding (Keel Pro), the sail locker behind the anchor locker and a smart folding cockpit table device...the rest is very well made, but traditional

I believe that the 410 is going to be even more beautiful. I like better its transom. take a look at the 430:































































































































http://www.arconayachts.se/_cur/nyheter/KeelPro_Arcona_B.pdf

http://www.arconayachts.se/_cur/tester/YM_Jan_2009_430.pdf

http://www.arconayachts.com/tests/430/Arcona_430_Test_ST.pdf

http://www.arconayachts.com/tests/430/Arcona_430_Test_YW.pdf

Arcona Yachts UK

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Faster said:


> Clever..the saillocker forward is a good use of space and it pushes the V berth aft, creating a lot more foot room for a couple. One of my main beefs lately is the V berths pushed so far forward that they come to an actual V at the foot.
> 
> The rest is traditional but no less functional.. has one been built yet? I wonder if they're available without teak decking..


I like the interiors better than the older model Dehlers (not including the DS).

That forward locker is I agree a great feature. Sorry to go on about Dehlers so much but it is a feature of them that I like a lot.

Sleeping up front is for me better than down the back but I don't want to be cramed up. That cramped v-berth has been seen a lot, I guess cos it maximises interior space, which invariably translates into more berths. Who needs 'em. Feed six, sleep four when necessary, perfection for two is what this rodent wants.

Not a lot of Arconas for sale second hand, those that are ....whoa mama ....expensive.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> I like the interiors better than the older model Dehlers (not including the DS).
> 
> ....


Andrews, do you know the Arcona 40 DS?


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Andrews, do you know the Arcona 40 DS?


Paulo,
No I don't. Didn't know they did a DS.
Will do a search. Sounds pretty interesting.
rgds
Andrew

ps - nothing came back on search...do you have anything Paulo ?


----------



## PCP

*Arcona 40DS / CR400 Ds*

The Arcona 40 DS was a fast boat (for a DS) with great interiors (better than the Dehler, but also more expensive). I believe they stooped production around 2003/2004. The Arcona DS was a match for the CR 400 DS. Also a very fast boat with an even better interior.

I know well both boats, been inside the CR400 DS (and I think also inside the Arcona 40DS) and I can tell you that boat is a very impressive one. The CR 400 DS is still in production. If you look on the web you will find a web page about an owner (I think he is American) that travels a lot and says wonders about the boat, its speed, comfort and seaworthiness.

http://www.cryachts.se/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=88

If you can put your hands on one of those (Cr or Arcona), at an affordable price, you will have no regrets.

I could not find any decent Arcona DS photo on the net, but if you want I can see if I have one.

Regards

Paulo

Regards


----------



## Faster

td... they have a new CR DS 380: Have a look.

http://www.cryachts.se/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=119

Couple of layouts.. I think I'd ask for the galley to be moved to the salon area if that degree of customization is available. I like the larger dinette/aft cabin of the "head forward" option as shown, but not crazy about the linear galley stuck below.

If I'm being picky, it's a bit of a blocky profile... but a pretty nice cockpit for this style of boat and the helm sightlines look pretty good....


----------



## PCP

*Regina de Vindo 35, CR 380 DS*



Faster said:


> td... they have a new CR DS 380: Have a look.
> 
> http://www.cryachts.se/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=119
> 
> Couple of layouts.. I think I'd ask for the galley to be moved to the salon area if that degree of customization is available. I like the larger dinette/aft cabin of the "head forward" option as shown, but not crazy about the linear galley stuck below.
> 
> If I'm being picky, it's a bit of a blocky profile... but a pretty nice cockpit for this style of boat and the helm sightlines look pretty good....


You mean like this?









This is the layout that the Regina 35 uses.

By the way, the Regina 35 is a very nice boat. I prefer its more classic style to the one from the new CR 38:



















The Cr 360 can have two layouts:










I agree with you about the second layout, the one that is on the bottom. On that one the galley is in a hole, but on the first one you have a completely open space that includes the saloon and the galley and you have in front a seat and a storage space. I would put a longer seat and a storage (up and under the seat) for books and music, with a removable table to eventually eat some lighter meals.

You can see that on the 40ft, with more space, they use that space for a small space for seating and eventually eating. This way the boat not always look a lot bigger (open space), as you will have the chart table and seat side by side with the saloon and that is interesting, specially with a couple, I mean, it will not isolate the skipper when he is working on charts or on the computer from the wife that is on the saloon.










The Cr 380Ds will be a very fast and seaworthy boat, like its big sister, the 40Ds. The hull design looks a lot more modern than the one from the 40ft and with 6,8T for 75SqM of sail, a 1,72M draft with a 2.9T ballast on a bulb, this is not only going to be a fast boat as a boat with a huge stability, a boat that can carry a big geenaker in light winds and can maintain all its sails up with 20K wind, or more.

I like the looks, even if it is very difficult to design a nice DS with only 38ft:



















This boat will be a direct competitor with the Nordship 38, that is also a relatively fast deck saloon, but just to see how the CR will be fast, the Nordship has 9T (with a 3.2T ballast) and carries not much more sail.

Nordship

I had read some 7 years back, a test sail comparison, between the Arcona 40Ds and the 40CR Ds, by the British magazine Yachting Monthly. They were really surprised with the boat's sailing performance. They said those two had nothing in common with the idea of the traditional DS, that in many cases is little more than a motor-sailor. They had said that their performance had more to do with a cruiser-racer, than with a tradicional DS

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Cr 400ds*

Hey Andrews, I have found out that link about those guys that sailed a lot on a CR 400DS and have said nice things about their boat (the boat is now for sale):

Photo pages of the our CR Yacht 400DS sailboat

I guess you are going to find out why this was my preferred boat, before I found out about the Luffe 43DS, I mean 6 or seven years back, when the boat I really wanted was a fast DS. Well, If I had the money for a 43DS I would still be interested

The problem with these boats is that for being really good they would have to be hugely expensive. I remember one nice talk with the designer and builder of the CR 40ds about the boat and costs envolved. We where seating inside the boat and I asked him about the safety of those big glass windows (real glass).

He said he used bullet prof glass instead of lexan (plastic) because lexan scratches easily and those kind of windows will get pretty ugly in some years. He said that he used stainless steel strong frames for safety reasons instead of aluminum ones and I remember quite clearly that he have said that only the saloon windows and the frames cost him more than the 55hp Volvo-penta saildrive . This had give me some clues about the reason the boat was so expensive. I guess the rest of boat is made with the same care as the windows, at least it looks that way

Regards

Paulo

PS- Look here, perhaps this interests you:

Locate the Mad Dogs / The Mad Dogs, Exploring to Inspire...

They say the next trip is to Australia...and they want to sell their boat, that is very well equipped .


----------



## tdw

Fast, Paulo,
Great stuff. I'm off to a course today so won't be around. Will add comments tomorrow or this evening our time.
Cheers
Andrew


----------



## jrd22

Well I really like the look of the Regina, and with a galley up it might even pass Laurie's inspection. I looked up Regina 40 DS on yachtworld and the price of a new one is - gulp - over $3 mil. Someone please tell me this is a misprint, please. Not that I'm in the market at all, but I'm glad to see some fairly traditional looking DS's being offered because the newer straight, angular designs just don't do anything for me I'm afraid (a sweet shear makes the boat). Does anyone know if it's possible in these pseudo pilothouses ) to at least get engine controls at the nav station (throttle & gear shift) since I don't see a spot for a wheel?


----------



## PCP

*Nordship 36DS*

I had already talked about the Nordship 36, but as we are talking now about similar boats, it makes sense to put them all together. So, I have deleted the previous post about the Nordship 36 and I will post it here, with more information.

The Nordship 36 is an amazing boat with just the needed space for a couple to live aboard. It is also a relatively fast boat and an oceangoing one.

But if you don't have to believe me, you can just see what I mean

Look at the interior:

Nordship

Look at how she sails:

Nordship 36 DS - YACHT: YACHT tv

Of course if you want a faster boat and the luxury of space you can have the 38. It is amazing what can be made on a 38ft boat. They managed to even put a small space for reading and to watch videos and television.

Well, and there is the 40...that is just too big for a couple and some occasional guests and also a lot more expensive. Seriously, the 40 is good, but the 38 is just a better design and the one that designed it said to me that both boats sail at about the same speed...so, why pay a lot more?























































Nordship

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Regina 40*



jrd22 said:


> Well I really like the look of the Regina, and with a galley up it might even pass Laurie's inspection. I looked up Regina 40 DS on yachtworld and the price of a new one is - gulp - over $3 mil. Someone please tell me this is a misprint, please. Not that I'm in the market at all, but I'm glad to see some fairly traditional looking DS's being offered because the newer straight, angular designs just don't do anything for me I'm afraid (a sweet shear makes the boat). Does anyone know if it's possible in these pseudo pilothouses ) to at least get engine controls at the nav station (throttle & gear shift) since I don't see a spot for a wheel?


Nobody is using an inside wheel anymore, but all of these boats can have an inside joystick that will do the same job without taking the space the wheel would require.

Regarding the Regina 40, are you saying $3 millions? That's a mistake, the boat is expensive but not that much

It costs about 350 000 euros (without Vat).

That's a very nice boat. Have you seen this video?:






It sails also much better than older Regina. All you need is 10k wind and thats enough to turn the engine off and sail away

Regards

Paulo


----------



## jrd22

I assumed it was a mistake Paulo, but these days you just never know. With an autopilot station at the inside "helm" you can steer but I would want to be able to at least throttle down and shift to neutral or reverse from inside. We have way too many logs in the water here that are almost invisible until you are right on them. Beautiful boats, I don't see many grab rails on the overhead in them and I wonder how you manage to get from one place to another inside some of these when it's rough. Maybe I'm just not seeing them.


----------



## PCP

Jrd22, you can have a joystick and a throttle and shift to neutral or reverse command, similar to the one that you have outside. Sorry if I was not clear. That's an option, but lots of people mounts them. If you are going to use the boat in bad or cold weather makes all the sense

Regarding grab rails, on the Nordship 38 saloon picture, look at the main table and to the chart table. There are also lots of places where the wood is worked to form an handrail, but you cannot see it on the picture. But this is the kind of boat where if you are not satisfied with the ones that are provided, they will put them where you want them. The owner of the boatyard is also the boat designer and a very enthusiastic sailor that is proud of his work and of his boats. He is a very nice guy that makes a point into satisfying clients in all their needs.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## HDChopper

That Regina 35 just finnish me off :batter 

I knowed better Idid Idid :laugher


----------



## BenMP

That Nordship is beautiful. You are making if difficult to be content with my budget.


----------



## nemier

I've got HUGE dreams Paulo! And your posts have a lot to do with that!


----------



## jrd22

It's amazing how much room they can design into a 36. I would guess that the Nordship 36 probably feels larger than my 40' PH inside with a similar layout (we don't have an aft stateroom, it's forward of the main salon on the port side). It's hard to tell but I'm wondering how much storage room there is on either the Nordship or the Regina. I assume they are not stick built so would the liner restrict access to a lot of areas behind and under settees, counters, etc? I've never been on a new boat to poke around and check that out. If anything, we have too much storage space (really).


----------



## PCP

*Sirius 35DS*



jrd22 said:


> .. I assume they are not stick built so would the liner restrict access to a lot of areas behind and under settees, counters, etc? I've never been on a new boat to poke around and check that out. If anything, we have too much storage space (really).


One of the things that differentiate these boats from big production boats is the care with detail. These boats are normally boats built for many years by the same guy, that is most of the time also the designer and have an almost familiar relation with their clients. Many of them have already bought several boats along the years and they contribute with ideas about design interior and has the average buyer is not a marina sailor, but a real cruiser, those ideas are many times very good ideas, that are incorporated into the design.

When you buy one of those boats you are not only experiencing the knowledge of the guy that design the boat, but also the accumulated experience of many cruisers that have contributed to improvements on the boat.

Answering your question, yes, you can count that any inch of available space on those boats have a use. It could not be the use you would give it, but then the builder (that is also the designer) would be very interested in hear your ideas and into incorporated them in your boat. And he would be interested because he would recognize in you an experienced cruiser and know than its boats has been improved along the years with the contributions of many experienced cruisers.

I don't know if you are following this thread from the beginning, if not I think that you would be interested into looking to the first posts about the Sirius, also DS sailing boats. In what regards the use of each inch of space they are very hard to beat Take a look:

Sirius 35 DS - YACHT: YACHT tv

And they are also among the ones that incorporate more ideas from their clients...actually their new 43ft is being designed with the active colaboration of their clients and future clients

Sirius-Werft Plön | 35 DS | Philosophy

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats.html

For the ones that already know the Sirius 35, their 360º pictures are already on line:

Sirius-Werft Plön | Cockpit/Saloon | 35 DS Cockpit/Saloon

Sirius-Werft Plön | Saloon | 35 DS Saloon

Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin/Head/Shower | 35 DS Owner´s cabin/Head/Shower

Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin/Head | 35 DS Forecabin/Head

Sirius-Werft Plön | Technic Room | 35 DS Technic Room

And some interesting sailing tests:

http://www.sirius-werft.de/phpwcms/picture/Pressemitteilungen/YM web und mailversion final.pdf

This one is in German, but has it is from my favorite boat magazine I will post it (and in the next link a translation):

http://www.sirius-werft.de/phpwcms/...ungen/Yacht Test Sonderdruck_Sirius_35_DS.pdf
http://www.sirius-werft.de/phpwcms/...glish inklusive Bildunterschriften fertig.pdf

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Amazing use of space.. and with a view from the master stateroom too. the degree of finish - even in the 'engine room' is truly impressive. Even the 32 footer - very nice.

BUT... I have to say if you're going to put such blocky, large hull windows in it should be mandatory to finish the hull in a dark colour that hides them.


----------



## tdw

Nothing I've yet seen has swayed me from my ultimate sweetie the Luffe DS43. Yeah, OK, so 43' is pushing the envelope but she is long and lean, a small 43'er. Dollars blow her clean out of the water so unless something seriously wonderful happens to the Wombat exchequer she will remain a wet dream.

If I have a criticism of Regina/Nordship/CR it is that in order to get that bloody great cabin aft the helm position ends up very high and very exposed. it is I suppose one of the quandries for a designer....give 'em headroom under the cockpit or keep the cockpit sole down low. Me I'd prefer shore cabin up front and quarter berth down the back. 

In virtually all of them JRD's remark re inside steering is of course valid. Yes, we can have a joystick and engine controls at the chart table but most have very limited view forward. 

I'll not post it here cos its not a modern go fast design but in the Deck Saloon thread have a butchers at a Brewer PH similar to JRD's. I'll post it in an hour or so. That boat has real inside steering with adequate view forward. I do acknowledge that in this day and age the wheel itself is redundant.

Paulo, if you do find a pic of the Arcona DS I would love to see it. I suspect she would be a beautiful boat and worth seeing. I'd figure outrageously expensive. 

Fast.....I'm not sure I get the need to move the galley to the saloon. I can appreciate the ventilation issue but don't see that as insurmountable. Other than that the only advantage I see for an upstairs galley is giving the cook a view and for me that is an overated feature. Oh yes, remember that I am more likely to be the cook on the Womboat than not.

ps - Paulo....I see the MadDogs referring to plans to visit Australia but not that they intend selling the boat.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> ...
> 
> If I have a criticism of Regina/Nordship/CR it is that in order to get that bloody great cabin aft the helm position ends up very high and very exposed....
> 
> Paulo, if you do find a pic of the Arcona DS I would love to see it. I suspect she would be a beautiful boat and worth seeing. I'd figure outrageously expensive.
> ...
> ps - Paulo....I see the MadDogs referring to plans to visit Australia but not that they intend selling the boat.


One of the reasons to have a high helm position is because you need to be up enough to be able to look over the cabin and the cabin is a lot more high than on a non DS boat.

I will post Arcona DS pictures on the thread about DS. I have it on other computer in my atelier (I think). Yes, it is a nice boat, but the Cr 40 is nicer. I agree that the Luffe 43 has no comparison , but the three boats are on the same league in what regards sailing. Even if the Luffe is faster, these boats are much faster than any other DS that I know off, with the exception of the Dehler 41Ds that is also a relatively fast boat.

Yes, they want to sell the boat and buy a bigger one:

For Sale: CR 400DS pilothouse sailboat

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Arcona 460 movie*

OK, enough of super comfortable rational boats .

Let's talk about SEXY boats  I have found a great movie about the Arcona 460, the big brother of the Arconas that I have posted before we started to talk about Deck Saloons.






That's right, this is the kind boat that keeps a grin in your face

The video is part of a boat test by Yachting Monthly magazine.

Regards

Paulo


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## jrd22

Paulo- I looked at the link for the CR 40 that is for sale. Apparently they were VERY unhappy with the workmanship and lack of support, both the factory and the local dealer that they bought it from. Looks like a beautiful boat to me although that slab of a rudder looks awfully exposed IMHO. Terrible website.
Here is a link to where they talk about it:
Why the poor rating for CR Yachts of Sweden


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## PCP

That's clear that there was some disagreement between them and the builder.

They talk of design flaws but they say that its a nice design. They talk about incompetent building practices and plain stupid construction techniques but they don't say of what they are talking about. They say that they are going to post it on line, but I cannot find anything.

I had never heard anything bad about the builder or his boats and I don't understand how possibly CR could survive doing bad boats. Cr is a Swedish firm and their boats are probably more expensive than other Swedish high quality boats like Halberg Rassy, Malo and more expensive than other Nordic boats like Arcona. How can they survive building very expensive boats in a market where the high quality is the rule?

I am very curious and I would like to know more, but I don't think it's fair to make unsubstantiated claims without explaining of what they are talking about.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## jrd22

I agree and I also looked for more information but each link I followed ended up being bad. It would be nice to know what issues they had and why they weren't addressed by both the factory and the dealer. Apparently they felt good enough about the boat when it was all said and done to spend quite a few years on it and at least a couple of winters in Alaska.


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## PCP

...and planning to sail it to Australia. The guys are crazy if they plan to do that in a 40ft with so many problems


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> ...and planning to sail it to Australia. The guys are crazy if they plan to do that in a 40ft with so many problems


Paulo,

They do say that while they were/are unhappy with the builder and their US agent they did resolve all major problems by their own means.

If you look at the For Sale notice they also seem to be saying that they now plan on selling the CR in America and heading off to Australia and Europe in a different boat.

There are inconsistencies on the site but I'm thinking they are simply a bit slack in updating the blog and had posted their intention to head for Oz and Europe before deciding to sell the boat. Thats my interpretation anyway.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> 
> There are inconsistencies on the site but I'm thinking they are simply a bit slack in updating the blog and had posted their intention to head for Oz and Europe before deciding to sell the boat. Thats my interpretation anyway.


Well, if they posted the intention to head for OZ and Europe before deciding to sell the boat, then they intended (at that time)to sail that boat to Australia

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409*

Well, this one is for you Marty!

The Bavaria 40 looked very nice on the first drawings, but I have to say that the real thing is another story. The boat looks a bit fat and the interior is just plain ugly. Take a look:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/bavaria_40_.swf

I thought that there was some confusion with the weight but it seems that the boat really weights 9T and that is a lot for a 40ft. I have read the test from the "Yacht " magazine and the performance is disappointing, even for a cruiser. I don't understand the guys from Bavaria. The boat may be a Farr design but seems slower than the previous model and it is not nicer.

On other hand I have said that the designs from the interior saloon of the new Jeanneau 409 seemed to me the best designed I had ever seen in a 40ft cruiser boat, but that I wanted to confirm that with real photos and a visit to the boat.

I have already saw the photos and they look as good as the drawings. I will be at the Paris boat show ( 3 weeks from now) to look at the real thing

Take a look at the interior (360ºpicture):

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/jeanneau_409_.swf























































I had said also that, from the photos, the boat looked a bit too "pretty" meaning too feminine, if you know what I mean

No, the boat is just beautiful. These *movies* give us a better idea:

Neustart mit der Sun Odyssey 409 - YACHT: YACHT tv

Sun Odyssey 409 â€" A special recipe for beauty! - Jeanneau Yard

Sun Odyssey 409

Sun Odyssey 409

I have said that probably the new 40 Bavaria was faster: No way. They announced a performance version with 93 Sqm of sail for 7.5T. This numbers on a Philip Brian design (First 45 and 50) can only mean that this is a really fast cruiser.

http://www.jeanneau.com/medias/CMS/...42i/doc/Inventaire/boat-42i_Inventaire_GB.pdf

The boat has also a remarkable tankage for a 40ft: 530L of water and 200L of fuel.

The only thing I really don't like is what seems the impossibility of mounting two extra side winches to have the boom control near the wheel (German sheeting).

http://www.jeanneau.com/medias/CMS/...chure/boat-Sun-Odyssey_doc_20100826142045.pdf

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

I like that new Juneau 'corporate' look. That is most certainly one modern production boat that I would happily own. The interior is a beauty. Love it.


----------



## slap

We went on the 409 at the annapolis show - the wife really liked the interior. Below are some pics:


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## Faster

We have a new Bavaria 45 and a 32 here in town at the local dealer.. haven't been aboard but the outside appearance is not at all appealing.. blocky and ugly to my eye too, so I agree with you, Paulo. I wonder how much Farr had to do with the deck or did they simply provide hull lines.....

I'm too much of a traditionalist, I suppose, and I like my rounded moldings, and other things 'nautical'.. to me some of these new boats are simply too linear.. you'd be forgiven for thinking you're looking at a kitchen display in an Ikea catalogue. But I'll concede they probably go really well for the most part!


----------



## PCP

Faster, I think you have understood what I mean, but let me make it more clear:

I am not saying that the Bavaria is a bad boat or that its quality is worst than the one from Jeanneau. As you know I have owned a Bavaria 36 for 7 years and I have only good things to say about it. No, I am talking only about boat Design and in what regards Design (that is an important part of any product) it seems to me that the Jeanneau 409 is a lot better than the Bavaria 40.

Of course, if someone prefers the interior from the Bavaria, if the Bavaria looks to those eyes a more beautiful boat and if that customer does not mind to have a slower, but slightly more stable boat (because it is heavier), than for him the Bavaria would be a better choice, since the quality of materials and workmanship is very similar.

I also don't understand why the Bavaria 36 looks a lot better than the Bavaria 40, especially in what concerns the interior. It makes no sense: it is a more expensive boat. Someone should fire that designer.

Look yourself to the two interiors and tell me if I am wrong:

Bavaria Yachtbau: 360° Pictures

Bavaria Yachtbau: 360° Pictures

Even in what regards outside looks, the 36 seems less fat than the 40 even if 7T is still a lot for a modern 36ft boat (the Jeanneau 36I weights 5.7T).

Getestet: Die neue Bavaria Cruiser 36 - YACHT: YACHT tv

That over weight is even more strange if we consider that the previous 40ft weighted less 0.5T and that my Bavaria 36 weighted 5.7T. I would have expected the Farr designed Bavaria to be lighter and faster than the ones designed by J&J design group, but I was wrong

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Faster said:


> ...
> I'm too much of a traditionalist, I suppose, and I like my rounded moldings, and other things 'nautical'.. to me some of these new boats are simply too linear.. you'd be forgiven for thinking you're looking at a kitchen display in an Ikea catalogue. But I'll concede they probably go really well for the most part!


Yes, I would have preferred a slightly less modern style (that has nothing to do with design quality, but with personal taste), but I think that the Jeanneau interior still looks pretty much like a boat interior, even if you would have preferred a slightly more classic style. Anyway it is a very good piece of interior Design.

But look at this interior:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/sense_50_s_.swf

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/sense_50-l_.swf

Why would someone want to make a boat interior look like a tiny apartment?

If they make it, it is because there are a lot of people that want that. Perhaps it's me that I am misjudging. Do you like that? Do your wives like that?

Perhaps that is what I am missing. It seems a good sales strategy: Design an interior that appeal to wive's tastes, after all the interior is in many cases their domain and they will not let you buy something they don't like.

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

Paulo,
Notice how the 409 and 439 share a common theme as distinct from say the 42i. I expect other new models in the series to have the same look. Thats what I meant by "corporate" look. Just as e.g all current release BMWs and Audi's share certain design traits.

As I said I do like the 409 but it does support my argument that European builders are catering for the weekender/summer holiday crowd and not the full time cruisers. This is probably stating the bleeding obvious of course. 

You see this in the 409 where there is no option to go two cabin and increase the size of the galley. Instead the two cabin just gives you a bigger head and a bigger guest cabin. Reality is that is not a satisfactory galley for a 40'er liveaboard cruiser. I fully realise that these are production boats and that the lack of available customisation is reflected in the price. What is more I also acknowledge that the full time liveaboard market is pretty damn small. 

These are observations more than criticisms.


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Yes, I would have preferred a slightly less modern style (that has nothing to do with design quality, but with personal taste), but I think that the Jeanneau interior still looks pretty much like a boat interior, even if you would have preferred a slightly more classic style. Anyway it is a very good piece of interior Design.
> 
> But look at this interior:
> 
> http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/sense_50_s_.swf
> 
> http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/sense_50-l_.swf
> 
> Why would someone want to make a boat interior look like a tiny apartment?
> 
> If they make it, it is because there are a lot of people that want that. Perhaps it's me that I am misjudging. Do you like that? Do your wives like that?
> 
> Perhaps that is what I am missing. It seems a good sales strategy: Design an interior that appeal to wive's tastes, after all the interior is in many cases their domain and they will not let you buy something they don't like.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I don't have a major beef with the style of the Jeaneau interior, only parts of the layout. Quite frankly I could easily live with that interior design.

As for the Bavaria...no way. As you say, looks like a mini apartment and as for the ticky tacky ornaments and flower arrangements...blech. Proof positive that these things are never intended to spend a night at sea, even though they are probably more than capable of doing so. Day sail, lunch break at anchor, occasional night at anchor but generally marina or tied up stern to.

That said, if it is what their client base wants, then so be it. After all Paulo, even my most favourite of yachts , Bestevaer, offers some truly appalling interior designs. Upmarket appalling no doubt, but still apalling. While a properly configured Bestevaer/Bestewind would make a truly great world cruiser they also are acknowledging that most will spend little time at sea.


----------



## PCP

Actually that small apartment is not a Bavaria, but the new Beneteau Sense 50....a bit better in what regards design, but I hate the style 

I agree about the galley. It is not a bad or a small one, but it could be bigger on the two cabin boat. Anyway I prefer the two cabin boat. It has another sea berth and the saloon space will look a lot better. They have no photos of that version and that's a pity because I know that it will be a lot nicer.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Paulo,

I was really meaning the Bavaria you referenced a few weeks back but I did get a bit confused there. The Beneteau interior while still a bit apartment like is not as Ikea as the Bavaria. I don't dislike it, if I am in a modern state of mind. I don't so much mind the look, as long as they round off the sharp corners. Its more the ornaments and set decoration that I find loathsome.

Me , I can look at an older boat and appreciate the timber fitout though some of the Taiwanese built things had a tendency to overdo the twiddly bits. Then again I can appreciate more modern design as well, I guess because that is what I work with Monday - Friday. 

rgds

Andrew


----------



## slap

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> You see this in the 409 where there is no option to go two cabin and increase the size of the galley. Instead the two cabin just gives you a bigger head and a bigger guest cabin.
> These are observations more than criticisms.


The Hanse 370 allowed you to have a bigger galley in the two cabin configuration, but its replacement, the 375 doesn't give you a larger galley in the two cabin config. It was one of my favorite features of the Hanse.

The problem with the 409 is that the head is moved aft in the two cabin version, but then you loose the separate shower compartment, which was a good wet hanging locker. The port settee is lengthed, but it looks like it is not lengthened enough for an adult to sleep on it when someone is at the nav station. But you do get a large cockpit accessable storage locker where the port aft berth was.


----------



## PCP

slap said:


> ...
> 
> The problem with the 409 is that the head is moved aft in the two cabin version, but then you loose the separate shower compartment, which was a good wet hanging locker. The port settee is lengthed, but it looks like it is not lengthened enough for an adult to sleep on it when someone is at the nav station. But you do get a large cockpit accessable storage locker where the port aft berth was.


I agree that it is a pity that they had not used the space for a bigger galley, but that is difficult and more expensive. What they have done is not a completely new layout but just some alterations to the layout. The Beneteau are one of the few that does that and quite well, I mean, two completely different layouts for two cabins or three cabins versions.

I am not sure but I am almost certain that the longer settee is big enough to function as a sea berth, even for big guys (In two weeks I will let you know) and I believe the separate shower is still there, and works with some curtain or other device. If you take a look you will see that the space for shower is actually bigger than the one in the two cabin version.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

slap said:


> The Hanse 370 allowed you to have a bigger galley in the two cabin configuration, but its replacement, the 375 doesn't give you a larger galley in the two cabin config. It was one of my favorite features of the Hanse.
> 
> The problem with the 409 is that the head is moved aft in the two cabin version, but then you loose the separate shower compartment, which was a good wet hanging locker. The port settee is lengthed, but it looks like it is not lengthened enough for an adult to sleep on it when someone is at the nav station. But you do get a large cockpit accessable storage locker where the port aft berth was.


Hey Slap...almost didn't recognise you without the Penguins....

I did a 'design your own boat' thing on the Jeanneau website and you can order a screen that divides the head compartment in two but its not a completely separate shower stall as in the three cabin.

Me I'd be perfectly happy with the three cabin head, port guest cabin same size as in three cabin and extend the galley into what is the starboard aft cabin.

Still and all, as Paulo says, its all about cost. You and me can just have the WLYDO and the Maestro design one for us from the ground up. I wish.


----------



## blt2ski

You non US or NAmerica folks must have a design and price function I can not find on the jeanneau site.

I'm liking but not liking the new look. I personally would like to see a bit less freeboard, and more cabin. That is probably a "marty's eye" feel if you will.

Andrew. I do feel the Jeanneaus any how, ARE aiming at the vacation/weekender/daysailer vs a live aboard as I feel you are thinking from your standpoint. BUT< that is not to say that a Jeanneau could not be used as a live aboard, or other boats of equal design charactoristic, such as the B Oceanus, bavaria, catalina........etal that fit the mold as we are talking about here.

On the other hand, the owner of the local Jeanneau dealer, did take a 49iP for two years, went from here in the NW, to oz and back with wife and twin daughters. So the boats will handle full time use, and can work. Now comes the "HOW" do you want to load the boat etc. If one goes to jeanneau owners network - Home One can figure out thru some of the forum posts, that many are living year around in different parts of the world on there Jeanneau's. BUT, most are daysailors to maybe a 2-4 week cruise once a year, with some weekends if you will on there boats.

Marty


----------



## slap

tdw said:


> Hey Slap...almost didn't recognise you without the Penguins....
> 
> I did a 'design your own boat' thing on the Jeanneau website and you can order a screen that divides the head compartment in two but its not a completely separate shower stall as in the three cabin.
> 
> Me I'd be perfectly happy with the three cabin head, port guest cabin same size as in three cabin and extend the galley into what is the starboard aft cabin.
> 
> Still and all, as Paulo says, its all about cost. You and me can just have the WLYDO and the Maestro design one for us from the ground up. I wish.


I agree with what you would like, and add that the area that was the starboard aft cabin is now storage accessable from both the cockpit and the cabin.

About costs? I've got one kid in college (freshman), and another starting next year. And the oldest is hinting at med school, and the youngest is talking about optometry school (four years postgrad). I'm doomed.

I just haven't set up any signature, so no penguins yet.


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 40*

I have said on previous posts that the Bavaria 40 had a great running rigging and I have said also that the Bavaria looked a bit fat to me and have a particularly ugly interior.

It looks that tastes vary a lot because YachtingMontlhy tested the boat and found it beautiful. Well, British were always more attracted by practical things than beauty but even so, calling that saloon: "clean elegant and stylish" is just a bit too much for me . they also say that the "Bavaria 40 is a sight for sore eyes. Though she is a very beamy boat she doesn't look it".

Well I disagree, the saloon is appalling and the boat could look really good.... after a diet



















But I agree with them when they give 7 out of 10 for the deck layout. They also give 8/10 on the helm "feeling" and sensibility, 9/10 in Design and construction, 9/10 in maintenance and 9/10 in sailing performance.

I find that 9/10 in sailing performance exaggerated. Sure the boat would smoke a 40 Halberg-Rassy a Malo or even a Beneteau, but that very good performance was attained with the use of a huge geenaker, that many sailors would not use.

The German magazine "Yacht" that had also tested the boat give it a potential speed performance of 4.33 while they had given to the previous Bavaria 40 4.5 (4.0 for regular cruiser, 5.0 for regular cruiser racer) and that is what I have said. This boat is slower than the previous model, Farr designed or not .

I trust more the German testers, they really try to be objective. Their measured speeds with 16/21k wind and 0.6m waves where:

40º - 6.7K 60º - 7.5K 90º - 8K 130º (Geenaker) - 9K

The British with 8k wind on a broad reach with gennaker made 7.5K and on a beam reach 6.9K and close hauled with 6K wind made 5.4K.

Not bad for a modern cruiser (incredible fast if we compare it with a 20 yerar's old cruiser), but I guess I can not forgive it the fact that the previous model was faster

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Huzzah...penguins....

Marty....agreed that there are plenty of boats that are supposedly not true blue water cruisers that have done a lap or two and plenty of them have been Jeanneaus, not to mention Hunters, Bennies, Bavarias etc. We are probably being overly pedantic but what the heck, this is dreamland so we look for perfection.


----------



## Mark F

Does anyone have any photos of a Cowhorn built in Coral Bay, St John, usvi?

Back in th 1980's I was building a house on East End and would frequently see Cowhorns with their unique sail planform.


----------



## Faster

Mark F said:


> Does anyone have any photos of a Cowhorn built in Coral Bay, St John, usvi?
> 
> Back in th 1980's I was building a house on East End and would frequently see Cowhorns with their unique sail planform.


Like so? a couple of hits on a google image search....


----------



## Mark F

No, but thanks for looking Faster and PCP. 

They are cat ketch double enders with free standing masts of nearly equal height. Each sail has a small gaff and look almost identical.

I did find one photo but it looks like I'm not allowed to post photo's


----------



## Faster

Looks like an alternative name was a "shallop".. Is this more like it?


----------



## Mark F

Very similar Faster. The sailplan is very close with the little gaff and same size masts. The Coral Bay Cowhorns are a keel boat between 30' and 35'.

Thanks


----------



## PCP

More like this:










I think tou are referring to these boats:

http://www.allatsea.net/article/March_2009/Boat_Building_in_the_Boondocks_-_Part_Two

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Back to the Jeanneau 409 and the Bavaria 40. The interest on those two boats has been huge, from the press and from the public. Many boat tests were done and there are several good movies on the net (mostly from magazine boat tests). A good movie can give us a pretty good idea of the boat.

Both boats have very good details and some weak points. This time I am going to ask you guys to have a look at the movies and to post about what you find good, not so good and really bad. Kind of a static boat comparison on Sailnet, by the members that want to participate. Let's see what comes out

Bavaria 40:

YouTube - Bavaria Cruiser 40

YouTube - Hamnen.se testar Bavaria 40!

Jeanneau 409:

YouTube - Sun Odyssey 409.mov

Neustart mit der Sun Odyssey 409 - YACHT: YACHT tv

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Well, for me the Jeanneau wins the 'rowing test' battle


----------



## Mark F

That's it Paulo,

The one on the lower right side. I have seen that photo but it is a really low resolution picture. Thanks.


----------



## nemier

PCP said:


> You mean, like this:


What is this boat?
Tell me, then we'll get back to the Jeaneau's, I promise!


----------



## HDChopper

Huh ....that Bavrian 40 looks kinda plain jane inside for the bucks?

Sun Odyssey 409 .... looks sweet 

Ya I looked this is pure boat porn lol.....


----------



## PCP

There are things that in my opinion are better on the Bavaria:

The Galley is bigger and probably more functional, the boat seems rock solid (look at that guy doing gyms on the handrails), plenty of handrails, that big swimming platform is a lot larger than the one from the 409, the boat has a geenaker retractable boom and the possibility of having 4 winches on the sides (German sheeting for the main sail). It has also a very smart way to protect the outside plotter from weather and thieves and off course it has that Kevlar protection on the hull against impacts.

On the Jeanneau 49:

The interior and the outside have a better overall design, the boat is faster, with more sail and less weight, the lateral passage on the deck is much bigger, the Genoa winches are closer to the wheel.

More thoughts?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

nemier said:


> What is this boat?
> Tell me, then we'll get back to the Jeaneau's, I promise!


Sorry, I missed your post.

That was a Cowhorn, or at least it was what it said on the picture. I know very little about traditional American boats, but the rig of that one looked like the rig on my first sailboat.

Mine was similar to this one,








but modified by me. It had a big front boom, a deck and I used as front sail a jib and on the boom a thing that was a misture of a genoa and a geenaker (i thought that I had invented the thing ). The boat had a modified keel with lead on the bottom to increase stability and sailing power. It was a powerful boat and a nice one too. Had lot's of fun with it. Lots of good memories

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

HDChopper said:


> ...
> 
> Ya I looked this is pure boat porn lol.....


I like boat porn, but my tastes are different. This is what I call boat porn






One design

High performance yachts









Regards

paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Sorry Paulo, multi's do not do it for me, unless they are the open fast ones that race across oceans. Otherwise that little 10.5 that got this thread going is what i would call BP! off to marina and restaraunt, to see if the gale is in yet, along with snow falling......should be fun if happening. It was sunny and 40-45 knots saturday down there, water flying over the seewalls some 200-300' beyond..........nice to watch storms for the land sometimes!


----------



## COOL

PCP said:


> This is what I call boat porn


 Wrap it up, I'll take it!
I think the SIG 45 is one the few good looking
cats on the market.


----------



## PCP

*XC 50 / Murtic 52 boat test and movie*

I don't like fat cruising cats, but this one is not fat and it is certainly a cruising cat and a very fast one. The interior would be enough for me and... do you have seen that huge teak platform? Can you not imagine yourself sitting there on a tropical paradise, on a real deck chair drinking mojitos?

And this one is not a 10.5 sailing machine. It's more a 18K sailing one .

But I can understand that it is not your style. Your boatporn is more like This?:











or more modern, like this?:






Nah! I want the cat, and this one (put the movie in high def.):






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 41 boat test*

As a way of giving a better information about the boats posted on this thread, I am going to post links to independent boat tests, regarding those boats.

Kind of a second opinion

The first one will be about the *Salona 41*:

(post 398)










"SALONA have been steadily enhancing their reputation, sailing to considerable successes on the European race tracks with their 37 which was 'Boat of the Year' in 2007 and won many regattas including the Copa del Rey and more recently it took third spot at this year's ORCi worlds in Flensburg, Germany as also did the Salona 42 which was skippered by Croatia's former Finn Olympian Karlo Kuret, writes YL racing editor Andi Robertson.

The new J&J designed Salona 41 made an unmissable UK debut at the Southampton Boat Show. With loud '70s throwback graphics which would make Starsky & Hutch's toes curl, it was a cruel way to disguise one of the show's more interesting and exciting debut cruiser-racers.

Probably the least said about the graphics soonest mended, but suffice to say that they are only self adhesive, nothing a couple of hours with hairdryers and a scraper wouldn't sort.

Nevertheless, the 41 is a good looking, modern design which neatly delivers all that is required of an adaptable performance cruiser.

From wide sidedecks, sunbathing areas, a massive unobstructed cockpit, a sympathetic deck and coachroof line, to an easily achieved fast sailing performance and a simply executed but spacious and comfortable layout down below, the Croatian built Salona 41 is a most acceptable alternative to some of the big name continental and Scandinavian offerings at this size range.

The Salona 41 is built using an ultra modern vacuum bagged resin infusion process which produces a light, stiff, resistant hull.

Salona take considerable store from their use of a substantial stainless steel chassis which accepts the rig, mast and keel loads and this and other key areas are bolstered by e-glass triaxial laminate reinforcements. Below the waterline they use clear rather than white gelcoat.

......
She is a light, sprightly boat which accelerates smoothly and evenly and feels positive on the helm, but still appeared pretty stiff, ideal for fast short handed sailing.

There is a standard 140% furling genoa which would be well suited to the lighter summer winds off the Adriatic and Med, but we generally felt the boat moved well under the sail power we had and for long periods we had less than 10 knots of breeze accompanied by late summer Mediterranean sunshine.

Reaching in nine knots of breeze we were achieving 7.4-7.5 knots with a pleasing smooth wake, and little attention to the helm.

The boat tracks beautifully and the twin carbon wheels are great, offering excellent all round visibility. Shame we did not have a big reaching gennaker to get all excited with.

Certainly we were taken with the cockpit and generally with the ergonomics. The deep coamings around the cockpit give a good seat hold when the boat heels, or is heeled which rather compensates for the lack of foot or toe holds.
.....
We had a short beat back into Hamble with the offshore breeze puffing up to 15-16 knots with some obvious shifts and the Salona 41 really seemed to stay on her feet well, the deep high aspect rudder providing a feather light feel, but also positive grip.

She felt pretty quick, tacking neatly and efficiently with the small, non overlapping headsail making life easy for the short handed crew. The Salona 41 always felt manageable and pleasingly predictable with no nasty surprises.
....
Looking forward there is a well executed sprayhood recess rail which does not alter the deckline significantly. The coachroof offers a good halyard deck cover which is easily removed but does offer a wide, fairly flat sunbathing space.
...
On our test boat we especially liked the solid handholds. The galley is spacious with good stowage options and plenty of work space and opposite, the nav station is equally well appointed with a comfortable seating position. ....
The aft cabin is also well appointed for the size of boat this is, with good floor area and a little living space as well as good stowage. And at the bow the forward double cabin shows those same key values of space, light and comfort, being easily kept and maintained.

Overall we liked the Salona 41 a lot. From a company which is certainly one of the emerging strong brands, this is an exciting offering at an excellent price.

.....

Yachting Life


----------



## sailingdog

Basically, it's an oversized stiletto. 



PCP said:


> I like boat porn, but my tastes are different. This is what I call boat porn
> 
> YouTube - SIG45 High Performance Catamaran Sailing Fast
> 
> One design
> 
> High performance yachts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> paulo


----------



## PCP

Yes, it is the same basic concept. The difference is that size permits a really comfortable cruising interior and also the seaworthiness to be an offshore boat even if this seems to me like a sail machine not to be put in the hands of a novice sailor.

I guess that with some wind you can only put the power on if you have your hands on the sheets and that at night, or when you are occupied with another thing, you better reef those sails.

But as have said an old (70 year) Dragonfly cruiser to a friend of mine when he asked him if that was not a too powerful sailing boat for him: *Well, I can go slower, but you cannot go faster*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Beneteau Oceanis 37 boat tests*

As a way of giving a better information about the boats posted on this thread, I am going to post links to independent boat tests, regarding those boats.

Kind of a second opinion 

The second one will be about the *Beneteau (Oceanis) 37*:

(posts 306 and 314)










"Beneteau took a good look at the basics when designing the new Oceanis 37. The result is a sociable, solid performing cruising yacht, says Andi Robertson
...
While sometimes subtle refinements and a few clever ideas are enough to move forward with a new model within a range of cruising yachts, with the Océanis 37 it was a back to basics look at the working areas of the boat. It is this that sets the new Finot Conq design apart from its rivals.

Interior comforts are a given, but it was the cockpit area which the Beneteau revisited from the basics. They took the desire to maximise safe seating space in the cockpit as perhaps the key element of the boat's designed layout and ergonomics.
....
The new Océanis 37, like her latest stablemates, has a lovely, simple interior by Italy's Nauta Design, but it was the layout and the efficient performance of the hull by Groupe Finot which sets her apart, leading something of a new concept in fast cruisers.

There are two immediately striking aspects to the new Océanis 37,..: the modern hull lines which in many respects echo aspects of the powerful Open class style boats for which Finot Conq are so well known, but still offering modern, sympathetic lines and a subtle coach roof and deck-line. From the stern quarters it is not hard to see the Class 40 style lines with maximum beam carried well aft, forming a broad powerful stern.

As well as being the ultimate family cruiser this is a boat which is well set up for short handed, easy sailing with a good, big overlapping genoa set on a roller furler and, on our test boat, a simple stacking style mainsail.

So as well as being a boat the whole family can cruise extensively together, there is the capacity to easily sail it for miles short handed on 'deliveries', when the whole team is not available, returning to base short handed or heading to a more exotic location short handed.
......
The cockpit table is excellent as is the wheel and pedestal, but it is the flip up liferaft locker on the port quarter which is a really clever innovation. Supported on a gas strut, literally the whole back quarter of the stern lifts to cockpit floor level to house the liferaft.

There are three big other lockers. On the opposite side is a sail locker, which looked a little tight to keep a dinghy in, even well deflated.
.....
Sadly we only had a light breeze to sail the Océanis 37. But there was enough to learn that this is an easily driven and easily handled performer.
In a light sea breeze the new 37 answered the smallest puffs and was quick enough to build control and steerage.
....
A consensus quickly develops when with a posse of like minded media testers on board we were pleasantly surprised by how well the Océanis 37 sails.
...
The day's enjoyment on the new 37 was completed with the 90sq.m asymmetric gennaker. It really pushed the boat along quite pleasantly requiring minimum attention and would take the breeze forward of the beam with ease. Under the circumstances it was a perfect scenario, gently drawing a clean wake across the flat Mediterranean Sea on a warm February day.
......
Down below the Océanis is excellent in every living department. With no fewer than 14 windows or ports of all shapes and sizes there is a lovely light, airy feel. There are two layout options, one with a pair of symmetrical double aft cabins, and one with one single athwart-ships owner's aft cabin. But so too, the big, spacious forecabin is fantastic with lots of headroom and a small vanity unit or desk.
The new boats have deep, well protected overhead windows in the roof which afford lots of light.
....
The galley too, is great with a big, forward opening fridge unit and big twin stainless sinks. There are two large cupboards and four closed shelved systems. While we like the effect of wood closures to shelf fronts, we also appreciate that plexiglass allows you to see what is in the shelves without opening them.
...
Overall we'd concur with France's Voile magazine that, for its size and purpose, the Océanis is a boat of the year for 2008. For cruising, and even the odd local race, ...in real comfort, in the Océanis 37."

Yachting Life

The latest sailboat from the world's most prolific builder is a near perfect example of why Beneteau is the world's most prolific builder. It understands the market. It knows what we want in a boat and it delivers it to us time after time. This new model, the Beneteau 37, is stylish and clean on deck, the interior is comfortable and thoughtfully laid out, it performs very well but is also easy to sail and to maintain, and it's affordable. Manufactured in South Carolina, there's little doubt that Beneteau has launched another best-seller. ...
I took a brand-spanking-new 37 out for a SAILING Magazine Boat Test after the Miami Boat Show. The midmorning breezes were fickle but that didn't stop us from shutting down the engine as soon as we cleared the dock and working our way south on the ICW under sail. The boat is extremely nimble and, I confess, we were showing off a bit by quick-tacking across the 200-yard channel. Overtaking the powerboats putting along in the No Wake zone was rather nice. Once we had a bit of breathing room, we eased the sheets and sped along at 6-plus knots. The apparent wind was 8 knots.

The 37 combines the established talents of naval architects from Groupe Finot with elegant interior styling from Milan-based Nauta Design. The result is a thoroughly modern look that marries form and function in a very user-friendly package. ....

Beneteau has a proven construction philosophy that might be summed up like this: Build rock solid fiberglass hulls with balsa-cored decks; use interior molded pieces to streamline production; use scale purchasing power to offer savings that other builders can't match; and finally, finish boats out to a high standard. Despite building more boats than any other company, Beneteau gets the details right. The new 37 has superb fiberglass sculpting throughout. The intricate diamond pattern nonskid that offers excellent traction but is easy on the feet is one of many examples.

...This is a long-winded way of saying that the new Beneteau 37 is efficient on all points of sail right out of the box, or right off the dock.
....
The cockpit is quite wide and very comfortable. The 37 doesn't have much taper to the hull shape, holding its beam well aft. The wheel is located well aft and at the helm you feel like you're sitting on the transom. I like this perspective. It gives you a full view of the sails and a direct connection to the rudder. When you give the leather-covered 36-inch wheel a small turn the boat responds immediately. There are three cockpit lockers, including a huge sail locker to starboard. ...

The external chain locker forward is deep and large enough to carry an honest amount of ground tackle. The stanchions support double lifelines and the pulpits on both ends of the boat are robust. ....

The interior is surprisingly bright and airy. I say this because the sleek deck profile would not suggest this result below. However, every living space has a minimum of one natural light and air source. Also, bright white molded pieces help to keep things light. The layout is practical and the finish is lovely. ..
...
Access to the aft cabin is through the galley. Billed as the guest cabin, it is roomy and includes a genuine double berth and hanging locker. The head and nav station are opposite the galley to port. The head includes a stall shower and is more spacious than heads in older model Beneteaus. .. Most 37s will include a microwave oven above the chart table.

The portlights flood the saloon with light, and seem bigger below than from on deck. The hull ports also add light and sense of space. Opening portlights and a large overhead hatch afford terrific ventilation.

The owner's cabin is forward. I was surprised to find that there's plenty of headroom, 6 feet, 3 inches to be precise, and that adds to the spacious feel of this comfortable cabin. ...There is a lot of stowage with a hanging and shelved locker to starboard and large lockers below the berth. Another big overhead hatch and bright and efficient halogen lights make this cabin user-friendly.

There's enough water tankage to avoid installing a watermaker right away. All together there's 98 gallons with tanks under the aft bunk, and the forward section of the forward bunk. ...

A 29-horsepower Yanmar diesel is very fuel efficient and provides enough power to push the 37 along at more than 6 knots in protected waters. Truthfully, the boat sails so well, and is so easy to sail, the engine will primarily be used for getting in and out of the marina. The 52-gallon fuel tank will likely last all season. ...

Under sail 
Back on Biscayne Bay the wind remained fickle. Bringing the boat hard up on the wind it accelerated smartly. Pinching high, 35 degrees apparent, we kept the boat moving. The 37 is a sailor's boat, you can feel the rudder at all times and the boat talks to you. If you get a bit too high you know it immediately and a modest correction gets you back in the groove. I like a boat that you sail by the seat of your pants and by the wind on your face, not just by instruments. ...

The new Beneteau 37 is destined for success. Despite the weak dollar, the base price of $139,900 makes the boat a great value. ..

Sailing Magazine | Beneteau 37

For this 37-footer, designers Finot/Conq gave the hull a beamy stern and a high-performance keel (a backwards L in profile) made of cast-iron. They placed the chainplates and shrouds right out on the gunwales, providing good support for the mast, an arrangement that limits the length of the headsail and so restricts the area. This makes the headsail relatively easy to tack, a good idea on a family boat; a good idea on any boat, for my money?anything to reduce the drudgery of winching.

This rig layout is standard practice on grand prix boats, but it also works well on cruisers because it is simple. The mast needs to be a little taller to recover some of the sail area lost by the small headsail, but the wide shroud base helps support it.

Modern accommodation
The accommodation layout is classic modern, an owner's cabin forward, two double cabins aft. This boat's stern is so wide that in the starboard aft cabin the berth is almost as wide as it is long. And you can lie in bed and watch the waves astern, through the opening port in the transom, a luxury enjoyed by the likes of Cook and Flinders and Bligh, but few yachtsmen since.

More than 20 years ago Beneteau invented the user-friendly galley. More accurately they introduced design details which made life easier for sailors and they still come up with new ideas for interiors. In the benchtop there's an icebox which doubles as a crockery storage. You can put the beer here, or if you want to sail before you do the washing up, stick the dishes in here.

And another new idea: Behind the settee is a small table lamp. You can lift it out and take it upstairs and plug it into a socket in the cockpit table for atmospheric dining al fresco.

There's a third new idea: A clear washboard lives in a groove beneath the main hatch. Pull it aft and it drops down into place. Easy to do when closing up after a sail, and it encourages you to do it early if the weather's getting nasty, rather than put it off until the cook is getting wet. And the fridge is a surprise, a domestic model with shelves in the front-opening door.

Setting sail
This Oceanis has a big cockpit. It is wide and it is long, not always the case with European boats. This feature alone makes this an 'Aussie' boat. 
The wheel is big but there are cutouts in the cockpit seats so you can walk around easily. Alongside the helmsman the portside seat lifts up to take a small inflatable tender, or the liferaft.

The Harken #44 headsail winches are near the wheel and can be reached by the helmsman. On the coachroof are the winches, which handle all the boat's control lines. ..

The 30hp Yanmar (with shaft drive) is quiet and easily pushes the hull up to 7.3 knots and still accelerating. ...

Easy to steer
This Oceanis's steering is as good as it gets. It is light but not too light, and quite high-geared; ...

Easing her to windward in a fitful sou'wester was an absolute joy, made easier by the fact that I could see the telltales from the wheel's windward side. The teak foot supports are big. I would like to tell you more but the morning's sharp offshore breeze was squeezed out as the day warmed up, and we ran out of wind. The Oceanis has only a modest amount of sail, but she did well in the light breeze.

Single-handing is easy. The skipper can reach the headsail winches, and Brendan let her sail herself for minutes at a time in the breeze as he fiddled with the gear. It was his first sail on this brand-new boat.

Price? The base figure is $285,000, a little below market standard for this size. 
....

Motion of the ocean - Boat Tests - Modern Boating Magazine - Australia's leading boating and sailing magazine - Modernboating.com.au

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

THIS IS THE THREAD OF THE YEAR FOR ME! THANKS PAULO.
But I'm getting bummed out. I'm currently up in the northern sector of the North Sea with a VERY slow internet connection...I can't watch the video's. Pictures are good though!


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## slap

I've been going back through this thread. About the Presto 30:



PCP said:


> Of course you are right about the standing height, at least for big guys:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I believe that (like me) he would prefer to bend (or sit) than having an ugly boat with a big freeboard. Thats a choice of compromises.


I went on the Presto 30 at the Annapolis boat show. I stood at the galley, simulating cooking. For most of the time I could stand up straight through the main hatch. The boat had a dodger which didn't interfere with standing up in the galley and offered a fair bit of protection.

I was told that they were looking into offering a "pop-top" arrangement.


----------



## PCP

slap said:


> I've been going back through this thread. About the Presto 30:
> I went on the Presto 30 at the Annapolis boat show. I stood at the galley, simulating cooking. For most of the time I could stand up straight through the main hatch. The boat had a dodger which didn't interfere with standing up in the galley and offered a fair bit of protection.
> 
> I was told that they were looking into offering a "pop-top" arrangement.


A pop-top arrangement would go beautifully with the boat style and with the kind of open air,free and adventurous use this boat was designed for. I would love to see this innovative boat became a commercial success but given the very traditional profile of the American sailor that is not probably going to happen. Anyway I am happy to see that it was not only me that have found that boat very interesting and that he was elected (by Sailing Magazine) as boat of the year.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*First 30 boat tests*



nemier said:


> THIS IS THE THREAD OF THE YEAR FOR ME! THANKS PAULO.
> But I'm getting bummed out. I'm currently up in the northern sector of the North Sea with a VERY slow internet connection...I can't watch the video's. Pictures are good though!


Thanks Nemier




























Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - Video voile, first 30 Bénéteau*: bande annonce de l'essai complet
















Continuing that second opinion about the boats posted on this thread, let's see what others say about the the new First30.

The First 30 is very different, not surprising since it is the brainchild of innovative designer Juan K, who seems to be very hot right now, his boats are winning all over the place. We were told by others who had seen it that we should be prepared to be both wowed and surprised. Wowed by how good it was, and surprised by how it differed from the norm. They were correct.

Upon walking up to the boat you realize that this is one very large boat for its length, but that really it is like two boats in one. Standing at the mast and looking forward, it looks like a 30 footer at most, since the forward part of the boat is narrow. But turn around and look aft and you would think you are on a boat ten feet longer because it is so wide. 
....

First, the boat is big and behaves like a bigger boat under sail or power. The cockpit is enormous. The deck hardware is excellent. The engine is really smooth and quiet, amazingly so. There are plenty of sail controls and two come to mind as being especially nice. The jib in-haulers are easily adjustable from the weather side, and the Harken adjustable jib cars could be readily moved with the standard tackles even in the 20 knots of air we had. Winches were plenty big. I was worried about the short tiller, but the boat is so easily balanced that we had plenty of mechanical advantage and you can steer from several different positions. ...

Before we talk about sailing the boat we'll mention the interior, which was another pleasant surprise. Very nicely finished, roomier than expected, and with more headroom than expected. This boat has a very usable cabin, galley, head and sleeping areas, with good ventilation as well. ... What we have is a boat that can be enjoyed for multiple uses, and that also makes for better resale value down the road.

As nice as the boat is on deck and below, and as nicely fitted-out as it is, the real purpose of the First 30 is to go sailing. We were hoping that over the course of the day we might have some varying conditions so we could test the boat over a range of wind. What we got was 15-20 knots of fairly steady strong breeze all day in advance of a front. T... 99% of the time we sailed the boat is lots of wind. And that is the good news, the First 30 was a blast to sail in that stuff.

... I am accustomed to the helm really loading up on boats with a wide transom, but on the First 30 the helm was still very nice when heeled. When you crack off and head downwind the wide aft section is now in the water, and so are both rudders. Loads of stability and steering control on this point of sail. I should also add that the boat has a hard chine that also improves stability.

The First 30 is designed to be sailed heeled when going upwind, and it will be fastest when doing so. However, you can reef the boat and sail with less heel and it balances really well. In the morning we went out with full main and jib in 20 knots of air. While the boat handles it, it was more comfortable later in the day when we rolled up part of the jib and reefed the main. The speed seemed to be at least as good, and the boat just loved it. Another surprise was how well the boat handled the chop, which grew larger and steeper as the day wore on. We never once felt the boat slap or pound, which seems crazy considering the hull shape, but the design of the plumb bow is different from what you have seen before. Juan K obviously knows a thing or two about making a boat go through waves. We had a blast sailing the boat and we hated to come in and rush back to the airport.

The overall impression of sailing the boat in breeze is that it feels bigger than it is, very solid, very easily controlled, and fun to sail. We only got the spinnaker up for maybe 10 minutes because we had to meet someone at the dock, but it was a really fun ride (before we lost one of the sheets and had to take it down).

Scuttlebutt - Sailing Forum: INDUSTRY NEWS: Boats: Beneteau First 30

Feedback from initial sea trials was highly positive from those involved, and Ingouf, although understandably partial, is excited with what they've come up with. "It's a boat that's well balanced," he says. "You never have the feeling you're losing control. It's light, balanced and stiff."

In winds up to 20 knots, he says, they were still using the entire sailplan. "What's really impressed me is the way it goes through the chop. It doesn't pitch at all."

Boat Review: The Beneteau First 30 Goes Modern | Sailing World

The new First 30 is a bold choice for one of the largest sailboat builders in the world. An entirely new design by Juan Kouyoumdjian (with technical input from double Vendee Globe winner Michel Desjoyeaux), it features twin rudders, torpedo keel, full-width traveller and no backstay.

As the rockstar designer du jour, getting Juan K to take on a moderately priced 30-foot sailboat is a major coup. (for those who don't know, Juan K is perhaps best known as the designer of the 2005 Volvo 70 winners, ABN Amro 1 and 2. Then he designed the winner of the 2008 - 2009 Volvo Ocean Race, Ericsson 4.)

Juan's influence is heavily felt on this boat, working within the parameters set by Beneteau. You see it in the shape of the hull, with the short, fixed bowsprit, wide hips and blunt bow. The aggressive rig. The full-width traveller in the stern, and gross and fine-tune controls on the mainsheet. The foot-braces on the deck. The First 30 is optimised for IRC racing, with a choice of aluminum or carbon rigs, at least in Europe.

.. this is a fast boat. Torpedo keel, wide stern designed for surfing, and aggressive rig (SA/D ratios of around 25). We'll have to see how the rating turns out (preliminary IRC is 1.001, or about 92 PHRF), but overall, the boat promises to be a fantastic downwind ride, while being fast enough upwind for you to enjoy it. I'd expect this to be a good choice in any venue which gets 15 to 20 knots regularly due to its surfing potential.

I really like the twin rudders - these add great control while being heeled over, while also eliminating vibration from the prop wash on a traditional, single rudder. Of course, you can't direct the thrust of the 20 horsepower saildrive in the same way, but with a boat of this small size, you have pretty good control manuevering. The twin rudders also help the boat maneuver under sail.

The boat sails well, too. In our 6 to 10 knots, both uphill and downhill, it almost sailed itself. Even when relatively powered up with a big asym chute, you could let go of the beefy tiller and it would continue on its own.

The sail control systems are fantastic. Really love the traveller - full width (and I do mean full - check out those photos) - and with easy-to-use control lines. No backstay at all - use the traveller, the mainsheet, vang sheeting, and, ultimately, a reef if it is over 20. Low-profile roller furler on the jib is another nice touch - lets you put a little more sail area on it down low.

... the sailing setup is one of the best I've seen.

What about cruising? ... This boat has a real interior. The overall design down below is well executed. This is a good layout. Aft head, forward main cabin, quarterberth for kids or race crew. It works. To have a full navigation station, forward stateroom with standing room and closing doors, and kitchen on a 30 foot race boat is impressive. Six feet of head room, including in the head / shower. And there is good storage in the starboard quarter due to the wide beam. Remarkable.
....
For cruising, the sail controls actually work pretty well too. There is a full six feet of headroom in the cockpit under the boom - an important safety issue. No backstays simplifies the controls. The big cockpit is comfortable for guests, with wide sitting area for the driver or for lounging in the cockpit. No traveller to step over, either. ....
....

Fuel and water will be limited, but this isn't a boat you're likely to sail across an ocean.

Conclusions
This is an impressive boat. The more you look at it, the more you realize the design team really put a lot of effort into getting the systems right for sailors. Go though the Pro list - they nailed all the key sail handling systems. On the down side, this is a production boat built to a price point. You see that down below with cabinetry and a look and feel which is on par, but not better than the typical Beneteau offering. This is a good looking interior, but not one built with a price-no-object ethos.

In the end, it is all about value. With a base price of $100,000, plus an extra $25k for sails and electronics, this is a lot of bang for your buck. You can't get a good 10-year-old J/105 for that. Compare to the Jenneau SunFast (PHRF around 81, at $182,000 sailaway), and the J/95 (PHRF 109, at $179,000 with the carbon rig, including $20k of sails, electronics and delivery fees). In the end, you could take this boat out for the weekend series with the race crew, and then cruise with a family for a week.

Beneteau First 30 Review | North American Sailor

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

*Compare Polar Diagram*

Hi guys!
So regarding such fast boats I have another question:
I currently wonder about polar diagrams and the difference between such a boat with a wide, flat stern like a first 30 or a pogo and a more conventional hull shape.
It's always said that boats like a Pogo are fast downwind but rather slow when sailing close to the wind.

Now, when comparing the polar diagrams of a Pogo 12.50 and a First 40 I see that the Pogo seems to be even faster close to the wind.
So do I understand the attached data correctly? And is such data usually trustworthy or in many cases exaggerated?
In the real life the First 40 is may be faster in many situations, or not?

Ulf

See Pogo 12.50 on the top and First 40 below.


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 12.50, Opium 39, Dufour 40e - Match with movie.*



myocean said:


> Hi guys!
> ...
> *It's always said that boats like a Pogo are fast downwind but rather slow when sailing close to the wind. *
> 
> Now, when comparing the polar diagrams of a Pogo 12.50 and a First 40 I see that the Pogo seems to be even faster close to the wind.
> So do I understand the attached data correctly? And is such data usually trustworthy or in many cases exaggerated?
> In the real life the First 40 is may be faster in many situations, or not?
> 
> Ulf
> 
> ....


Who says that?

Regarding the polars they consider flat water. With waves, probably the First will drag less water and certainly will be more comfortable , but I doubt that it will be faster, at least with all the winds. Anyway the difference will not be big.

You should read this boat test:






They have made a comparison between a Dufour 40e, an Opium 39 and a Pogo 40 cruising (12.50 prototype). The wind was a good force 5 and the sea had short waves. Close to the wind the speed were the same (7.5), with the Opium (with a worst sail, the original was stolen) making less 5º to the true wind.

They have said that the Dufour is a little better with winds lighter than 20K and the Pogo a bit better over 20k. The Dufour is more comfortable and passes better the short waves, the Pogo passes in power (I believe that is why he needs more wind to be faster than the Dufour).

Downwind the Pogo rules with 12k with the other boats making 8/9K. But regarding VMG dead downwind the VMG of the Dufour with spinnaker is about the same was the one of the Pogo with geenaker.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

Hi Paulo!
Sorry, had no time the recent days. The comparison of this three boats is very interesting!
As said before I am thinking about what is the right boat for me when aiming for long haul cruising with kids but still somehow sportive. So a First 30 is too small but I really like it to see that even Beneteau is now building boats with some design elements from the open class boats.

By the way: I am sure there has been a period of time when you had a closer look at multihulls. What was your main conclusion about such boats? (E.e from Outremer)
Ulf


----------



## nemier

Paulo,
I'm also considering a large cat right now, so would be very interested to hear what you have to say about any catamaran.
Eagerly waiting...!


----------



## PCP

*Big cruising multihulls.*

Yes you are right, I have looked at cats but I lost interest. Not enough money

For being seaworthy enough to be ocean capable they have to be big (45ft). I mean there are some smaller cats that are seaworthy but they carry small rigs and they are not fast. Resuming, they are out of my budget. If I remember correctly interesting boats start at 600 000€.

Most cats (mainly the big production French ones) are designed to be at anchor at the marina or for coastal cruising. They have big cabins that will got plenty of wind, drift a lot and go badly close to the wind.

There are some French ones, like the Sig 45 (and others), some South African like the Gunboats and some from New-Zealand and Australia that are built with other philosophy and I like those a lot, even if they have to be sailed with more care than you sail an oceangoing monohull. But as I have said, these ones are not only out of my budget as they limit the places I can visit. I mean, lot's of old ports and small marinas in Europe just don't have the place for cats, and when they have you pay double price...and here marinas are expensive. But if you plan to sail out of Europe in remote and nice places and have the money for it, they are a good option.

High Performance Multihull Sailing Yachts, Gunboat Luxury Catamarans
High performance yachts
Fusion Catamarans - Kit Catamarans, Sail Catamarans, Power Catamarans
Catamaran Outremer - Les catamarans pour le Grand Voyage
TOURNIER MARINE - Catamarans - Multicoques - Trimarans - Freydis - Location - Carbon line

I have looked with more interest to trimarans because those are more forgiving and you can have a smaller and fast one(comparing with cats) with oceangoing potential. Smaller means less expensive and some can fold their arms and fit in a monohull place in a marina, but in the end the problem is the same: Too expensive and I believe that you would find these ones too small for you. Contrary to cats, a Trimaran is smaller than a comparable sized monohull, with exception from the one that Dan have, but they don't make that one bigger enough for mine or your needs.

TOURNIER MARINE - Catamarans - Multicoques - Trimarans - Freydis - Location - Carbon line
Webs - Free website, free hosting, free webpage - Make a web site with photo albums, blogs, videos, forums and more!
Dragonfly Trimarans by Quorning Boats of Denmark | DRAGONFLY 1200 Presentation

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

OK, got it.
I've been looking around for over a year and I had more or less come to the same conclusion. But still looking, always looking. When our boat sells - hopefully some time next year, I'll be able to get much more serious. The B F30, is a personal choice (for me) if my wife and I do not make it cruising, for whatever reason. Cheers.


----------



## PCP

*Xc 38*

New Xp 38 on the way. This is a very beautiful boat and I will bet that it is going to be a great boat. I hate not to have money to buy one





































"The eagerly anticipated Xp 38 is set to debut late summer 2011.
Following on from the Xp 44, the Xp 38 will encompass the same ground-breaking performance characteristics whilst maintaining the cruising qualities X-Yachts customers have grown to expect.

The new Xp 38 is a resized model of the Xp 44 which is still under development and yet sold in more than 20 copies - 5 months before planned launch.

The Xp range will be built with the use of advanced technology and can be characterized as trendsetting in the yachting industry.

Performance
The new Xp 38 has been developed utilizing the latest version of a Velocity Prediction Program to create a hull and rig package with a high ballast to weight ratio that offers high stability under a generous sail plan.

Together with her sail-handling design, the Xp 38's performance may be easily enjoyed by a full race crew or whilst sailing short-handed.

Safety and Speed
X-Yachts' world-class build quality is taken to a new level in the Xp models, using the latest epoxy E-Glass vacuum infusion process for maximum strength, stiffness and durability.
The famous X-Yachts steel frame structure has also been developed, with the new Xp designs featuring a carbon/composite keel grillage that ensures hull impact resilience and rig stability for safety and longevity.
....

*Hull length* 11.58m 37.99ft LWL 10.36m 33.99ft *Beam* 3.70m 12.14ft
*Draft* - standard 2.10m 6.89ft Draft - deep 2.40m 7.87ft
*Ballast* - standard 2,760kg 6,085lbs *Displacement* - light 6,410kg 14,131lbs
*Engine *diesel 29.0HP *Water tank* standard 260 Ltr 68.8 Gal
*Fuel tank* standard 150 Ltr 39.6 Gal
*SAIL AREAS *standard (Preliminary) Mainsail (Alloy Rig) 46.2m2 497.0ft2
Mainsail (Carbon Rig) 48.0 m2 517.0ft2 Genoa · 106% 39.5m2 393.0ft2
Spinnaker - All purpose 130m2 1399ft2

The first series of 10 units are being offered for an introduction price of € 217,500 (ex VAT)

Xp 38

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Nice.... shame about the price! (guessing that's not the Carbon rig?)

I like:
Robust 'sprit' (although it's going to 'up' the moorage bill)
Clean deck layout with 'german' sheeting
Their resistance to joining the 'cats eyes' trend for the portlights, and not going with an 'arch'.

I've always liked the look of Xyachts' use of multiple boot stripes - it's a great way to 'visibly' lower freeboard. Hanses could benefit from that treatment.


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> Nice.... shame about the price! (guessing that's not the Carbon rig?)
> 
> ...


    That's the price with aluminum rig. Carbon rig is an extra ...more or less 35 000€ (normally including an upgrade kit on all deck hardware and carbon pole - top racing kit).

Regarding prices, from the same family of boats (stell frame, comparable hull and speed and a decent cruising interior) you have First X yacht than the slightly less expensive Arcona and then the less expensive Salona. I would be happy if I can raise the money to have a Salona

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

PCP said:


> Carbon rig is an extra ...more or less 35 000€ ....
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


That's about $50K... a big part of your "is carbon worth it?" debate!


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> That's about $50K... a big part of your "is carbon worth it?" debate!


That's not for only a mast, it is for a top performance kit.

For example the one from the Elan 38 costs 27 500 € and has:

"SELDEN keel stepped clear coated CARBON mast with two swept back spreaders in aluminium.

running rigging includs: 
1 x main halyard Dyneema; 1 x genoa1 halyard Dyneema;1 x spinaker1 halyard Daneema; 1 x genoa2 halyard Dyneema; 1 x spinaker2 halyard Dyneema; 1 x spinnaker pole lift Dyneema.

SELDEN match racing flat boom black anodised;
1 x outhaul; 1x reef1;1 x reef2.

Standing rig: ROD.

HARKEN carbo racing foil instead of Furlex;Three colour navigation light on mast top; CARBON spi pole / dip pole; HARKEN performance deck equipment: 
jib inhauls.

racing backstay purchasing system with spectra rope.
2 x Harken B44.2 STA main sail winch; 2 x Harken B44.2 STA halyard winch;
2 x Harken B46.2 STA genoa winch.
Main sheet, genoa sheets, spinnaker sheets and control lines for genoa cars in spectra quality.

2,35m draft racing composite keel (iron fin/lead bulb)"

Probably the one from the x 38 will include also a Carbon Boom (the Elan Boom is black anodized aluminum) and that with the more expensive material from the X yachts will put the price around those 35 000 €.

Of course if you are a cruiser or a club racer you don't need it but if you are going to compete at high level than that will be indispensable and probably less expensive than a complete top performance sail wardrobe.

The carbon mast will take out a lot of weigh up. That will give the boat more righting moment and that will be translated in more sailing power (the boat will be capable of carrying more sail). A carbon mast is also more resistant and flexible. That will allow better sail adjustments.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## slap

*Dufour 40e*

Since Paulo isn't around, I thought I'd post pics of the Dufour 40e. I like where they positioned the winches, making it easier to singlehand the boat.


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 40e*

Slap,

I am still around. I will pick the airplane to Paris in the afternoon

Thanks for posting.

You are right, we should have already talked more about the Dufour 40e. It is one of my favorite boats.

Dufour 40E - Dufour 40E Sailboat - Boat factsheet

Take a look at the interior virtual tour, this boat has one of the best cruising interiors among what is commonly called cruiser racers. That cruiser potential is also revealed by the best tankage in its class: 360L of water and 200L of fuel is two times more than what offer some other boats and almost as much as some dedicated cruisers.

http://www.dufour-yachts.com/medias/download/A11_Descriptif_standard_40E_EN.pdf

And you are right also about the winches. This boat, more than been developed in a way to maximize all its racing potential (like the First 40) is by design more oriented for performance cruising and the place where the winches are is a proof of that. Those winches are located, not in the best place for being used by a full crew, but in the best place for being used by a solo sailor

The fact that the boat, being cruising oriented, is still a top racing contender says a lot about its design quality. I would have preferred a more modern transom, but that is just a small unimportant remark and a personal one.

As you know, Dufour is now a member of Bavaria Group. I hope that will make possible a better pricing policy, making it less expensive than other great boats, like the Elan 410 or the Salona 41. If that boat had the same price of the First 40....I guess almost all, except pure hard racers, would opt for the Dufour

Sail Reviews the Dufour 40E | Daily Sailing News from North American Sailor














































Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Hey Slap, nice one. The 40e is a lovely looking bit of kit. Galley would be a bit bigger if I had my way.

We've talked about this before on this thread but I find it surprising that French boats so often have relatively small galleys. 

What can I say, I like to cook.


otoh....what do we reckon ? Diya seem a tad Spammish to anyone else ? Says he/she is from the USA, links profile to a commercial website and IP address is out of India. Diya...this is your chance to explain all that.


----------



## slap

tdw said:


> Hey Slap, nice one. The 40e is a lovely looking bit of kit. Galley would be a bit bigger if I had my way.
> 
> We've talked about this before on this thread but I find it surprising that French boats so often have relatively small galleys.
> 
> What can I say, I like to cook.


I don't care for the nav station - it doesn't look like there is a good way to brace yourself into it. Also, I prefer galleys that are J shaped and not L shaped - so you can brace yourself better on port tack.


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 40e movie*



slap said:


> I don't care for the nav station - it doesn't look like there is a good way to brace yourself into it. Also, I prefer galleys that are J shaped and not L shaped - so you can brace yourself better on port tack.


I agree with you. The new Jeanneau 409 has one of those, but that's difficult to have it on a 40ft boat. Anyway I think you are being a bit unfair. The Dufour has a proper and solid place to brace yourself. You only need to have a life line and clip it around your waist and what looks like the stove big handle. It isn't. It is really a very strong sliding holding point. Ok I agree, it is not as simple or practical as a J shaped galey, but if you have tried you know that will give you an impeccable and movable support.

Regarding the galley, this is a huge one for a 40ft cruiser-racer. The freezer is so big that you have to have two openings, one on the bottom, other more traditional, up and the drawers are really big and can take a lot of stuff.










After looking at the boat (again) at the Paris boat show I can tell you that the boat offers also an unusually good storage space for a 40ft cruiser racer. It has a dedicated space for the life raft (more than enough space) and two big lateral storage spaces. If you are not going around the world in it, or living permanently aboard, the three cabin version has the storage space needed for living comfortably.

Dufour 40E - Dufour 40E Sailboat - Boat factsheet

This is a great boat, fast, safe and comfortable...and I don't know if the recent acquisition by Bavaria has something to do with it, but it has become a lot more desirable: On the Paris boat show they were selling it with an huge 20 000 Euros disccount...just for start, with probably some more minor discounts after that 






Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Questions?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Welcome back Paulo. Rather you than me when it comes to Xmas shopping in Paris but very envious of the boat show visit.

My question....what did you mean by this ?

"If you are not going around the world in it, or living permanently abroad, the three cabin version has the space needed for living comfortably."

Galley of the 409 does look bigger in the pic than on the drawings.

btw...when you said you sympathised with the Jeaneau dealer...did you really mean empathised ? Sympathised tends to be taken as 'feeling sorry for', empathised is closer to sympatico.


----------



## blt2ski

AAnd people say english is easy to learn! Probably the hardest language next to chinese from what I understand. As English uses SOOO may other words from other languages, that it makes it harder to learn. Must be why I failed french, and english for that matter!ack!

Marty


----------



## slap

Paulo,

Since you left out the Salona 41 and the RM 1060 from your personal boat of the year awards, can I assume you were disappointed by them?


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Sorry about my English
> 
> Yes of course, yes you are right about "sympathized". Sympathy: Funny how an English word that comes from the French and has its origin in the Greek can lose half of its original meaning. In Portuguese or French sympathy (simpatia/ sympathie) can also mean "Fell sorry for " but in much a lesser extent than "feeling attracted for someone".
> 
> But then I found this definition of sympathy on wikipedia and this one goes along with what I mean to say:
> 
> "Sympathy is a social affinity in which one person stands with another person, closely understanding his or her feelings."
> 
> Sympathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> So I am a little confused This meaning of the word "Sympathy" does not seems to exist on Australian English. Does it exist on American English, or only in English English
> 
> About this:
> 
> "If you are not going around the world in it, or living permanently *abroad*, the three cabin version has the space needed for living comfortably."
> 
> Sorry about that, it should be like this:
> 
> "If you are not going around the world in it, or living permanently *aboard*, the three cabin version has the space needed for living comfortably." And I mean that the boat has all the storage spaces needed to have all things you need on the boat.
> 
> About the galley. The photo is from the Dufour 40e, but you are right about the galley on the 409. I can not find photos that show that directly but if you look at the existing interior images you will see that the cabinets over the counter are double ones. I mean in two rows and that provides very useful storage space.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,
No one will ever argue that English makes any sense. Very strange language indeed. To be sympathetic is to feel an affinity towards, yes, but to sympathise is usually taken to mean feeling sorry for. Strictly speaking your usage was correct but in the course of ordinary discourse empathise would have been the more likely word to use. So in using sympathise most people would asume you meant he was having a rough time of it and you felt sorry for the guy.

Anyway, that is of no great import. What you were saying about the 409 is that you think she is too small for full time or at least long term liveaboard ?

cheers

Andrew


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 movie*



tdw said:


> Paulo,
> .... What you were saying about the 409 is that you think she is too small for full time or at least long term liveaboard ?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Andrew


Hey Andrews,

Today I am just having trouble in make myself clear

No, it is just the opposite, this boat has an unusually good storage space for a 40ft. What I mean is that if I buy one of those I will probably buy the one with 3 cabins, because the available storage space is so good that I could live with it without needing the extra storage space provided by the two version cabin boat. If needed an occasional partial occupation of one of the cabins will be enough.

The boat has on the back of the transom two deep vertical big storage spaces. They need to be properly divided (that is to be expected in a big production boat) but they have enough space for all the fenders and mooring lines. You have also a separated dedicated locker for the liferaft. You have two big storage spaces under the cockpit seats and the anchor locker is real big, big enough to carry a lot of garbage bags and the anchor chain. Inside, most of the space under the saloon seats is storage space and on the front cabin, under the bed there are a separated large space that you can easily access (without removing the cushions). That's were normally all security equipment is stored.

On the saloon there are 10 small cabinets, two drawers, three larger cabinets, a big freezer and a dedicated space for the micro waves. The front cabin has two big closets and each other cabin another big one. The head has two cabinets with good storage and a separated shower.

My wife is pretty picky with the storage space (the Bavaria 36 had a lot of storage space) and has just loved this boat and its storage spaces so much that has managed to convince me in test sailing it

Well, I have also taken a look at the stability curve and the boat polar speed...and they look good











Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

I never see photos or videos showing the dinghy with the boat?
Do any vessel manufacturers give this any thought??
Davits for bluewater cruising don't make sense to me.
So, I guess the only option is tying the dinghy down, up forward. 
This always seems like an afterthought (or no thought) with the production boat manufacturers. Am I alone in thinking this way?


----------



## Faster

Some of the larger boats are starting to incorporate 'garages' under the cockpits for tenders. Maxis have done this for a while, of course (with room for seadoos, and other toys too)

Years ago the Hunter 54 (mid 80s) provided such a space - so there's really never anything really 'new'...


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 425*

Nemier,

I thought about you when I visited the Cigale 16 . That one would solve all your problems. Your wife would love it and you would love sailing it. You just have to buy it and when you do it, please invite me for a ride. What a boat!! perfection in all sectors (and I don't mean unnecessary luxury, I mean comfort, storage, seaworthiness and sail power).

Nemier, that one comes with a garage for the dinghy, an open one, but also a big one. I think the Cigale (then called Levrier des Mers - Finot designed) was the first one of the "small" yachts to develop that concept, back on the 80's.

Funny thing about the Cigale is that unlike some big boats that fell like big fat boats when you look at them from the wheel post, on the Cigale you fell the boat has just the right size.

Regarding smaller boats I think that good designers think about that even if that does not show on the catalogs. It just makes the boat uglier and that does not sell boats. Take a look at the Dufour 425 cockpit. Look at that big space next to the traveler without any hatches. It only makes sense because it is the space where the dinghy travels sideways. The handhold that are there are perfect to tie it and the spinnaker halyard will drop the boat there if you pull it alone. That's too much perfection to be coincidence .










I have sailed that boat and that's a perfect place for the dinghy, sailing on anchor or at the marina, the dinghy is never a nuisance.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Nemier,
> 
> Regarding smaller boats I think that good designers think about that even if that does not show on the catalogs. It just makes the boat uglier and that does not sell boats. Take a look at the Dufour 425 cockpit. Look at that big space after the traveler without any hatches. It only makes sense because it is the space where the dinghy travels sideways. The handhold that are there are perfect to tie it and the spinnaker halyard will drop the boat there if you pull it alone. That's too much perfection to be coincidence .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have sailed that boat and that's a perfect place for the dinghy, sailing on anchor or at the marina, the dinghy is never a nuisance.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


OK Paulo, now you really have me confused. Aft of the traveller is the main companionway hatch.


----------



## Faster

tdw said:


> OK Paulo, now you really have me confused. Aft of the traveller is the main companionway hatch.


In Portuguese 'after' means 'just forward of'


----------



## jrd22

Yeah, what TD said.

Edit: never mind.


----------



## tdw

Paulo,
I was somewhat confused , yes, but I guessed you meant the area forward of the travellor between the coachroof grabrails ? Logic suggest that is what you meant but I did take 'after' to mean 'aft of'. `
I figure the english word most apt would have been 'adjacent'.
Anywho , do carry on. In my travels I have often received apologies about other people's poor English. My standard reply has always been 'well your English is better than my Spanish/Italian/French'. 
Cheers
Andrew


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409*



tdw said:


> Paulo,
> I was somewhat confused , yes, but I guessed you meant the area forward of the travellor between the coachroof grabrails ? Logic suggest that is what you meant but I did take 'after' to mean 'aft of'. `
> I figure the english word most apt would have been 'adjacent'.
> ...


Well, one of the reasons I post on English forums is to learn English and it seems that here I have learned something . Andrews, one of the worst situations in what concerns the case of inappropriate use of words in a given language is when you have a similar word on your own language, one that is similar, but not used in all the same situations. That seems to be the case with "after" e "depois". If I understand correctly in English "after" means only "next" when time is concerned, like "after breakfast I am doing...". The correspondent word in Portuguese, "depois" is also used in that sense (time) but it is also used in what regards space. That means that in Portuguese I would say "depois" breakfast and also "depois" traveler, but in English I cannot use "after" relating to space. Is this correct? By the way in Portuguese we also have "adjacente". It is a kind of less popular but more correct way to say "depois".

Talking about boats and about the 409, I don't know if it is clear to all the improvements this boat has in terms of running rigging, improvements that make sailing this boat really easy, easier and safer than on the typical cruiser sailboat. At least this time I think that what they advertize is true.

You have really near the wheel, at hand, a big winch, a 46 and a three set up blocks. One is for the Genoa (or self tacking staysail), the other is for the main sail line and the other I am not sure if it is for the traveler. The boat has German sheeting and you have at hand all boat controls, from the main and from the genoa. You can regulate everything from there and more important, in the eventuality of some strong gust you can let go everything from there. This scheme makes a lot of sense for a solo sailor or for a small crew. This not only permits to have all controls at hand but also permits the use of a big Bimini, that would not have been possible with the traveler near the wheel.

Take a look:

http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy322/Paulo_Carvalho/Semttffulo.jpg

The other big improvement are the winches: Not only size (normally on a big production 40ft they are smaller) but you have the possibility of having a new line of electric winches that makes live a lot easier for all of those that want to sail but are afraid of not having the physical power to cope with the efforts needed. Best then describe them, just have a look (by the way, the boat is the 409).






This boat is having an incredibly positive reaction from the market (and a deserved one). Only Sunsail had bought already 60 of those.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> I was somewhat confused , yes, but I guessed you meant the area forward of the travellor between the coachroof grabrails ? Logic suggest that is what you meant but I did take 'after' to mean 'aft of'. `
> I figure the english word most apt would have been 'adjacent'.
> ...


Well, one of the reasons I post on English forums is to learn English and it seems that here I have learned something . Andrews, one of the worst situations in what concerns the case of inappropriate use of words in a given language is when you have a similar word on your own language, one that is similar, but not used in all the same situations. That seems to be the case with "after" e "depois". If I understand correctly in English "after" means only "next" when time is concerned, like "after breakfast I am doing...". The correspondent word in Portuguese, "depois" is also used in that sense (time) but it is also used in what regards space. That means that in Portuguese I would say "depois" breakfast and also "depois" traveler, but in English I cannot use "after" relating to space. Is this correct? By the way in Portuguese we also have "adjacente". It is a kind of less popular but more correct way to say "depois".

Talking about boats and about the 409, I don't know if it is clear to all the improvements this boat has in terms of running rigging, improvements that make sailing this boat really easy, easier and safer than on the typical cruiser sailboat. At least this time I think that what they advertize is true.

You have really near the wheel, at hand, a big winch, a 46 and a three set up blocks. One is for the Genoa (or self tacking staysail), the other is for the main sail line and the other I am not sure if it is for the traveler. The boat has German sheeting and you have at hand all boat controls, from the main and from the genoa. You can regulate everything from there and more important, in the eventuality of some strong gust you can let go everything from there. This scheme makes a lot of sense for a solo sailor or for a small crew. This not only permits to have all controls at hand but also permits the use of a big Bimini, that would not have been possible with the traveler near the wheel.

Take a look:










The other big improvement are the winches: Not only size (normally on a big production 40ft they are smaller) but you have the possibility of having a new line of electric winches that makes live a lot easier for all of those that want to sail but are afraid of not having the physical power to cope with the efforts needed. Best then describe them, just have a look (by the way, the boat is the 409).

YouTube - Harken Rewind Radial Electric Winch

This boat is having an incredibly positive reaction from the market (and a deserved one). Only Sunsail had bought already 60 of those.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Well, one of the reasons I post on English forums is to learn English and it seems that here I have learned something . Andrews, one of the worst situations in what concerns the case of inappropriate use of words in a given language is when you have a similar word on your own language, one that is similar, but not used in all the same situations. That seems to be the case with "after" e "depois". If I understand correctly in English "after" means only "next" when time is concerned, like "after breakfast I am doing...". The correspondent word in Portuguese, "depois" is also used in that sense (time) but it is also used in what regards space. That means that in Portuguese I would say "depois" breakfast and also "depois" traveler, but in English I cannot use "after" relating to space. Is this correct? By the way in Portuguese we also have "adjacente". It is a kind of less popular but more correct way to say "depois".
> 
> Talking about boats and about the 409,
> 
> Paulo


Everything I see about that boat impresses me. I'd love to see one in the flesh.

After can be used in referring to space but it will mean next in line or beyond, post, past. That's why when you originally said 'after' I immediately thought you meant 'aft' , aft being (I think) a shortened form of after.

Adjacent however means alongside. Whether that is in front of, ahead of, or to the side.

So you would say "after breakfast" and not "adjacent to breakfast" though you could say e.g. the stern platform is both "after the cockpit", "aft of the cockpit" or it could be seen to be "adjacent to the cockpit".

All clear ? 

That many Europeans speak as many languages as you do is quite awe inspiring. I can vaguely read Spanish and Catalan while I speak the most basic of words and phrases of Spanish but I do not 'understand' the languages as such. Yes it is not at all uncommon to find Spaniels who speak fluent Catalan and Spanish (Castillian) , or Euskara and Spanish, or Galego and Spanish plus Italian French English and sometimes even German .


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 Polar speeds*

Well, when Marty posted about this boat I thought that it was just another jeanneau. I was wrong, this is the first of a different kind of jeanneaus, and contrary to the new Beneteau Sense series, I like the direction they are going

Andrew, get a bit more impressed (It impressed me alright). Look at this Polar:










And the measured speeds on the two boat tests that I have read are consistent with the Polar.

And Andrews, that is not even the Polar for the performance rig, just the one for the Classic rig

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

and this is number two. The upcoming 439.



















I still think the 409 is probably the right size for two.

I confess to not being all that au fait with reading polars but from I do understand they are pretty impressive for a cruising boat.

Edit - Whoa..got a bit confused there for a moment or ten. We switched from D40e to J409 without me noticing. I couldn't figure out why the images didn't match. Duh !! Have to say that while I do like the J409 if I have my choice I'll stay with the D40e.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> and this is number two. The upcoming 439.
> 
> .....
> I still think the 409 is probably the right size for two.
> 
> I confess to not being all that au fait with reading polars but from I do understand they are pretty impressive for a cruising boat.
> 
> Edit - Whoa..got a bit confused there for a moment or ten. We switched from D40e to J409 without me noticing. I couldn't figure out why the images didn't match. Duh !! Have to say that while I do like the J409 if I have my choice I'll stay with the D40e.


Regarding the 439. It is as good as the 409, a little bigger everywhere, a little faster, but basically the same boat. It will only cost more 20 000 euros but as you say, the 409 would be enough for most families. Fact is that the 409 has a kind of wonder interior, that will look like more a 42 or 43ft interior. Believe me I know what I am talking about, I have seen a lot of boats, and my wife will tell you that this boat has a lot more storage space than the Jeanneau 42.

Well, regarding the D40e, it seems that with time you are going to zoom in the right kind of boat I would also prefer that one but there are a little problem, that one costs more 40 000 euros than the 409

Regarding the interior of both boats I would say that your wife would prefer the one from the 409. More storage space and a lot more views to the outside, big ones. Regarding that type of boats I would prefer the Elan 410 over the Dufour 40e (about the same price), that's why I am falling back to my previous choice, the Elan 380. That one costs about as much as the 409.

Comparing the sailing characteristics of the Dufour 40e, versus the 409, I would say that it will be faster, stiffer, safer and as easy to sail, if we discount the self taking jib on the 409.

So what is the fuss about the 409? Well it sails almost as well as the 40e (that is a cruiser-racer), with a "bigger" interior, with better and lot more outside views, for less 40 000 euros. 40 000 euros is a big fuss, especially if you don't have them

Regarding the Polar:

It is really simple to work out: The circles are boat speeds and the colored lines represent wind speeds. On the bottom you have the code for colors and wind speeds. You have just, for a given angle and a given wind speed to look at the where it passes the colored line (in relation to the boat speed circles).

What is extraordinary on this Polar is the pointing ability of this boat (normally only cruiser-racers show angles below 40º) and the overall speed. Some examples:

6K wind at 70º = 6K speed 8K wind at 60º = 7K speed
12K wind at 70º = 8K speed 25K wind at 110º = 10K speed
25K wind at 150º = 10.5K speed

This means that this boat can sail with very little wind (6K) and that most of the time it will be sailing between 7 and 8k. On passage, with trade winds it will be sailing most of the time between 8.5 and 11K.

Of course, the Dufour 40e can do better but that's another type of boat (cruiser racer) and a more expensive one. From the cruisers, only the Hanse 400 will be close in performance and you will have to buy a lot of extras that are standard on this boat, like decent sized winches.

Another interesting point is the motoring cruising speed: 7.5K with 80% power. That's a very good speed for a 40ft boat (the boat has a hull with 11.99m and that is important in what concerns marina prices, at least in Europe).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 40e Polar speed*

Here, just for comparing, you have the Polar of the Dufour 40e, in its most "racing" version: Long keel, long mast:










This one with 4k wind can make 5k speed at 70º. That's why I want a very good performance sailboat. That's for sailing and not motoring. These boats can sail with very light winds.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

I am looking at the two polars Paulo, and frankly, I am not seeing a lot of difference between the two. Altho I will admit, the 40e polars are a bit harder to read than the 409, due to the 409 being in color and not overlapping as much. I do feel the 40e polars are a bit better represented when it comes to seeing the genoa vs spin type sail will do.....but that is another issue/story if ones asks me.

But the 409 does appear to be hitting some marks. now to see how she does in some of the BOTY events here and in Europe. I'm looking forward to seeing something in the low to mid 30' range. I could like it, as could my spouse, now if I could afford it.........

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 40e / Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 Polar speeds*



blt2ski said:


> I am looking at the two polars Paulo, and frankly, I am not seeing a lot of difference between the two. Altho I will admit, the 40e polars are a bit harder to read than the 409, due to the 409 being in color and not overlapping as much. I do feel the 40e polars are a bit better represented when it comes to seeing the genoa vs spin type sail will do.....but that is another issue/story if ones asks me.
> 
> But the 409 does appear to be hitting some marks. now to see how she does in some of the BOTY events here and in Europe. I'm looking forward to seeing something in the low to mid 30' range. I could like it, as could my spouse, now if I could afford it.........
> 
> Marty


Here you have the aproximated differences (in red for the 40e):

6K wind at 70º = 6K (6.7) speed 8K wind at 60º = 7K (7.3) speed
12K wind at 70º = 8K (8.2) speed 25K wind at 110º = 10K (10.6) speed
25K wind at 150º = 10.5K (10.8) speed

Now this does not mean that the Dufour is slow (it is one of the fastest 40ft boats around). If you look at the net you will find that the boat is winning races everywhere, this means, as I have said, that the Jeanneau is just a new breed of performance cruising boats, at least in what is concerned mass production boats. This means also that finally Jeanneau is making a clear distinction between their DS line and the performance cruising line in what regards boat performance.

Later I will post the Polar of the Elan 350 and 380. You are going to be surprised with the Polar from the 350

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Polar speeds comparative: Jeanneau SO 409, Dufour 40e, Elan 350, Elan 380*

Here they are, first is the one from the Elan 380 the second the one from the 350:



















Now, lets see the comparative speeds:

(black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350)

*6K wind at 70º* = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2)

* speed 8K wind at 60º* = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9)

*12K wind at 70º* = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2)

*25K wind at 110º* = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8)

*25K wind at 150º* = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2).

Comments please!

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo, 

As I said, looking at the polars, there is really not a lot of difference between the 40e and the 409, and for that matter, even the two Elans! The 350 while slower overall than the other three, still within what I would call the same limit. So from a boat length standpoint, the 350 to me is the fastest of the 4, with the 380 next, 40e then 409. Granted in reality as shown, the 40e is the fastest boat for boat. 

Polars are fun to look at to see how a boat will perform.

marty


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350 movies*



blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> As I said, looking at the polars, there is really not a lot of difference between the 40e and the 409, and for that matter, even the two Elans! The 350 while slower overall than the other three, still within what I would call the same limit. So from a boat length standpoint, the 350 to me is the fastest of the 4, with the 380 next, 40e then 409. Granted in reality as shown, the 40e is the fastest boat for boat.
> 
> Polars are fun to look at to see how a boat will perform.
> 
> marty


Marty, that's about it, even if the two most amazing boats are the Jeanneau and the Elan 350. The Jeanneau because it is surprising to see a big production cruiser with a so good sailing performance and the Elan 350 because it is surprising to find in a top performance boat really good cruising potential. The performances are incredible, but the interior is also awesome.

I mean, this boat is not a slow boat upwind and downwind with lots of wind it will beat the crap out of the Dufour 40e and Elan 380. The boat is already as faster as the Dufour with 20K and with more wind, it just goes away. With 35k the Elan 350 will be doing more than 15k.

But the surprise is this interior:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/elan_350_.swf










It looks good on the photo, but I wanted to see if the boat had enough storage and if I could fit in. I am big (6.14ft), hate small bunks and not to be able to stand in the head. Surprise!!!!:

The front cabin is really long, no problem there. No problem also with the salon and the head standing headroom. Only the front cabin is kind of low, but that is not a problem for me.

Regarding storage, it is perfect, with a huge cockpit locker (that has to be divided), lots of space under the front bunk and overall good cabinet storage.

The head is big and has a big storage space for wet suits and boat gear. The galley is well designed and big enough, with a good sized freezer.

So this was a good surprise for me and also good news. It means I can live in this boat, not with the same comfort as in the others...but I guess that I will have as much fun sailing this one, if not more, than sailing any of the others. It will be certainly much more fun than the 409. And as a bonus, this boat has an huge cockpit.

Regarding comfort, with the 30 000 euros difference in price, I can certainly cruise a lot more "comfortably", if you know what I mean. Not so much space, but much better wine, some lobsters, some expensive restaurants and nicer marinas, more airplane trips to Croatia, more sailing.










Yes, I am going to have the boat in Croatia. I loved the place and it is a good point to explore the Med: It is near Greece, near Italy, Sardinia, Corsica, Sicily and its 2000 Islands have a lot to discover.
















Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

I think you are seeing why I like a lot of the 35'ish foot boat designs like the E350, SF3200, etc. many if designed properly, have the fun factor in them from a sailing standpoint, enough room to store what one needs for a weekend or a week or so. Some still, if you pack reasonably light, a month or so. 

Head room as you say, can be an issue, you appear to be about 2" taller than me at 6', my sons on the other had, at 5'16" are the shrimps amongst us. My boat with 5.5 to barely 6' of head room is hard on us from that standpoint. 

Then you have mooring fees etc with the extra 5' of boat...... A couple I was sitting on there very nice 50'ish foot MB at my YC's holiday on the docks boat, he made a comment, going to a 44' boat would net an extra $100 in moorage savings. Not going to ask how much he pays vs my 30' slip! at least double if not 130% more, as the per foot goes up the bigger you are! While $100 is not a lot, it is still, another lobster dinner, or equal when it comes to the cruise kitty! Then add in sail cost, more fuel to motor when need be.......... A lot can be done in a properly designed mid 30' boat!

Marty


----------



## henrifinnflyer

Faster said:


> Hell, *I* like that one better.. Paulo that's the one for me indeed. Interesting with the dark cabin sole.. looks better than I'd have imagined. (Carbon, right? ) Not Catalina 'roomy', but she should sail well enough and keep a first mate satisfied.
> 
> This would fit nicely in our existing slip, too, unlike the Luffe 43DS - and might even leave our kids some inheritance too.


Finn Flyer Boats are now available in the US/Canada, please contact Finnes, Henri in San Diego CA ph. 858 337 6123


----------



## PCP

*Varianta 44*

Hey Faster now you can buy a Finn Flyer

In the Paris boat show there was another boat that called the attention of many people. There was a lot of people to see it and as I was just curious I did not find the time to go inside.

The boat is the Varianta 44 and it responds to what many on this forum claimed they want: An inexpensive simple and seaworthy boat with everything indispensable and no no-sense "modern" equipments.

The price is really incredible: 100 000 € and the quality is good. The boat is made by Hanse Yachts, the hull is the one from the 430 and to make possible this price you don't have dealers. You buy it via internet

This is a good sailboat, or even a very good one, with a high B/D ratio and with a good rigging. The interior...well, its a mix between a camping tent and a hippie house...an ambient that makes us remember the 60's...and why not? It was a great time, at least for me

Tell me what you think about this one, it is certainly an interesting one























































On the site take a look at the 360º photos. They are great. Take also a look to the video:

Varianta Segelyachten - from Dehler with love

Regards

Paulo


----------



## slap

PCP said:


> Hey Faster now you can buy a Finn Flyer
> 
> In the Paris boat show there was another boat that called the attention of many people. There was a lot of people to see it and as I was just curious I did not find the time to go inside.
> 
> The boat is the Varianta 44 and it responds to what many on this forum claimed they want: An inexpensive simple and seaworthy boat with everything indispensable and no no-sense "modern" equipments.
> 
> The price is really incredible: 100 000 € and the quality is good. The boat is made by Hanse Yachts, the hull is the one from the 430 and to make possible this price you don't have dealers. You buy it via internet
> 
> This is a good sailboat, or even a very good one, with a high B/D ratio and with a good rigging. The interior...well, its a mix between a camping tent and a hippie house...an ambient that makes us remember the 60's...and why not? It was a great time, at least for me
> 
> Tell me what you think about this one, it is certainly an interesting one


It looks like a very good idea, especially for sailing schools or chartering. Since the boats are stripped out, they might make an interesting one design fleet for racing.

I would like to see a version with fewer berths for couples or small families. Keep the interior simple, and make it easy for owners to upgrade it as they wish.


----------



## myocean

slap said:


> I would like to see a version with fewer berths for couples or small families. Keep the interior simple, and make it easy for owners to upgrade it as they wish.


This is possible. You can skip the second stern berth.

However:
It seems that this boat has not even an anchor and no winch for it. And even no anchor locker? I am not sure. In the FAQ they suggest to use a "lead line" and a winch in the cockpit. No winch can be ok, but no locker???

So this is really spartan. But anyway, I like it.

Ulf


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> ...However:
> It seems that this boat has not even an anchor and no winch for it. And even no anchor locker? I am not sure. In the FAQ they suggest to use a "lead line" and a winch in the cockpit. No winch can be ok, but no locker???
> 
> So this is really spartan. But anyway, I like it.
> 
> Ulf


Yes Ulf, that's true, no winch and no anchor locker and also almost no cockpit lockers. The one in the cockpit opens to one of the cabins.

I guess they are going to change that because lots of people will want to anchor. For me it is really the weak point of this boat and I believe that will not be too costly to solve that.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

slap said:


> It looks like a very good idea, especially for sailing schools or chartering. Since the boats are stripped out, they might make an interesting one design fleet for racing.
> 
> ....


Yes, they are organizing (with the owners) a class rule. With good sails this is going to be a fast boat. The Hanse 430 is not bad as a racing boat and has even won some races:

Hanse Yachts

This one is a stripped out Hanse 430 so it should be lighter and faster.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## NCountry

Love the fit and finish of these boats. (The Sirius) But, having spent time on a deck salon recently I gotta tell you that I'm no longer a fan of steps in the cabin going up and down. One badly timed swell or wave as you're about to move up or down them and you'll see what I mean. Bad enough that you have to deal with companionway steps in a big sea. Having extra steps down below is an invitation for injury!
Also, not a fan of galley's that are stretched out all along one side of a boat. The cook has got to have a way to wedge themselves into the galley while underway. Sometimes it is necessary to hang on to a large pot while you're cooking. (The crew needs to eat even in large seas.) If you get in a blow there's just no way to hang on to things if you're using both hands to keep your self upright.
I am glad to see that the table is anchored to something on one side. These tables with just a pedastel in the middle tend to spin when you grab hold of the edge of one of them.
Beautiful boat though. Would love to opportunity to take her out for a spin!


----------



## bb74

So PCP, your talk at the Nautic with the guy that purchased the Elan over the Pogo... Any insight into the details of that exchange? I'm curious as both are nice fast rides but I have a penchant for the Pogo. I've never sailed the Elan so I'm curious if it was comfort & goodies or sailing characteristics.

Thanks!


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> So PCP, your talk at the Nautic with the guy that purchased the Elan over the Pogo... Any insight into the details of that exchange? I'm curious as both are nice fast rides but I have a penchant for the Pogo. I've never sailed the Elan so I'm curious if it was comfort & goodies or sailing characteristics.
> 
> Thanks!


No, this guy is interested mainly in racing. The boat did not even had closed wardrobes.

He said that the Elan could go a lot better upwind and that was incredibly stable doing that.

I never had been inside a Pogo 10.50, only inside a class 40, but for what I have seen by the photos, the Elan has a better interior, more adapted for cruising. Of course, the Pogo lifts its keel and can go everywhere while the Elan with a draft of 2.15 or 2.35 is limited. I guess that it all depends on your cruising grounds, but the price is also something to considerate and the Elan is a lot less expensive. The difference in price can buy a lot of racing sails .

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

Thanks PCP,

I would agree on the interior - the Elan looks comfy while the Pogo is spartan. For the closing wardrobes/doors, I guess it may bother some but I think it's OK. Upwind performance would be interesting to see. Polars only tell you so much so first hand experience is critical.

Btw - Congrats on the 350, looks like a very nice boat. I haven't sailed Croatian waters (but I will!!), but it looks like a good option for stomping grounds.


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> He said that the Elan could go a lot better upwind and that was incredibly stable doing that.





PCP said:


> Now, lets see the comparative speeds:
> 
> (black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350)
> 
> *6K wind at 70º* = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2)
> 
> * speed 8K wind at 60º* = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9)
> 
> *12K wind at 70º* = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2)
> 
> *25K wind at 110º* = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8)
> 
> *25K wind at 150º* = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2).


So here we can compare a Pogo 12.50 with an Elan 380:
(black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350 Green=Pogo 12.50)

OK, The Pogo is a bit longer, but the differences seem to be quite significant. Still this are all theoretical values...

*6K wind at 70º* = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2) (6.8)

* speed 8K wind at 60º* = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9) (7.7)

*12K wind at 70º* = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2) (8.91)

*25K wind at 110º* = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8) (13.7)

*25K wind at 150º* = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2) (15.5).



bb74 said:


> the Elan looks comfy while the Pogo is spartan.


Yes it is! However I wonder how important that is. Aren't other things much more important when you are on your way?
I think more interesting is the question how much more bumpy a ride with the Pogo is...

A real comfort-plus of the Pogo is the cockpit: Really huge and without an annoying wheel.

And regarding space for the dinghy: Pogostructures writes about the 12.50 "At the back of the boat, a free space will receive the dingy while you change moorings."

Ulf


----------



## bb74

myocean said:


> So here we can compare a Pogo 12.50 with an Elan 380:
> (black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350 Green=Pogo 12.50)
> 
> OK, The Pogo is a bit longer, but the differences seem to be quite significant. Still this are all theoretical values...
> 
> *6K wind at 70º* = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2) (6.8)
> 
> * speed 8K wind at 60º* = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9) (7.7)
> 
> *12K wind at 70º* = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2) (8.91)
> 
> *25K wind at 110º* = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8) (13.7)
> 
> *25K wind at 150º* = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2) (15.5).
> 
> Yes it is! However I wonder how important that is. Aren't other things much more important when you are on your way?
> I think more interesting is the question how much more bumpy a ride with the Pogo is...
> 
> A real comfort-plus of the Pogo is the cockpit: Really huge and without an annoying wheel.
> 
> And regarding space for the dinghy: Pogostructures writes about the 12.50 "At the back of the boat, a free space will receive the dingy while you change moorings."
> 
> Ulf


Ulf, you're speaking to the converted (at least me) regarding the Pogo. The 12.50 would be a dream boat, the 10.50 a more reasonable investment for me.

I have no issue with the spartan interior, but at the same time, for those plunking down 200K€ fitted, I can understand the drawback.

I'm suprized the 10.50 is slower than the ELAN 350 upwind. The 12.50 is a pure racing hull (carbon copy of the new Open 40 class from Finot) and had a big rig so it isn't a suprize to me that it leaves the others in the back of the pack. The 10.50 is a bit more of a compromise design-wise.

My guess is the 10.50 is slower in under 10-12kt wind. Once you get it onto a decent heel around 15-17kts I'd be suprized if it isn't at least as fast. Off and downwind, I believe it would put 2-3 kts on the 350 in like air if it isn't fully loaded. Speed isn't everything of course, and clearly there appear to be some drawbacks that the Elan addresses so it is an interesting debate.


----------



## myocean

bb74 said:


> I'm suprized the 10.50 is slower than the ELAN 350 upwind. The 12.50 is a pure racing hull (carbon copy of the new Open 40 class from Finot) and had a big rig so it isn't a suprize to me that it leaves the others in the back of the pack. The 10.50 is a bit more of a compromise design-wise.


At the same time the 10.50 comes with inconvenient backstays which need to be changed with every tack and jibe while the 12.50 in comparison is nicely comfortable with no backstay.


----------



## myocean

By the way guys:

Why has nowbody mentioned the Sunfast 3200 yet?
I have the impression this is could be a great boat and the interior is interesting: Toilet in the front.
Is there a polar available?









Im am continuously watching out when a Sunfast 4000 or 4300 will show up...

Ulf


----------



## bb74

myocean said:


> At the same time the 10.50 comes with inconvenient backstays which need to be changed with every tack and jibe while the 12.50 in comparison is nicely comfortable with no backstay.


Certainly no need to adjust on the tacks. The 10.50 does not have a square cut mainsail so the sail actually clears the backstays fine upwind. Downwind, perhaps something extra to deal with but most race boats have this issue anyways so it's not like it is unique to the 10.50. The rigging on the 12.50 is great in this sense and I would imagine at some point the 10.50 could go in this direction. Finot had a 10.50 customized and he took many of the approaches for the 12.50 (backstays, all winches forward and inside, etc) and applied them post production onto the 10.50.

As for the SF3200, there has been quite a bit of discussion on this boat here but I haven't seen anything from someone who actually owns one yet. I havent sailed one and have only sailed on the 32i and 35i Sun models.


----------



## blt2ski

sunfast3200, Sail boat

You will find polars etc at that link. I'd have one if I could afford one. Altho it would have been the only one in my area. Their was some discussion pretty early on in this thread.

Marty


----------



## Nacra52

bljones said:


> The Seezunge C is a beautiful catboat. Check out the bar!
> 
> Seezunge C | VA Yachtdesign


Wow! That is a really amazing boat. Every boat should come with a built in bar with bespoke cut crystal decanters and glasses in a locking wooden cabinet, and a small woodstove (?!) for those chilly nights in harbor drinking cognac with friends.

And, cat rigged. Quite amazing. Thanks for sharing these pictures, not going to see that at the Seattle Boat Show next month.


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> So here we can compare a Pogo 12.50 with an Elan 380:
> (black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350 Green=Pogo 12.50)
> 
> OK, The Pogo is a bit longer, but the differences seem to be quite significant. Still this are all theoretical values...
> 
> *6K wind at 70º* = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2) (6.8)
> 
> * speed 8K wind at 60º* = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9) (7.7)
> 
> *12K wind at 70º* = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2) (8.91)
> 
> *25K wind at 110º* = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8) (13.7)
> 
> *25K wind at 150º* = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2) (15.5).
> 
> Yes it is! However I wonder how important that is. Aren't other things much more important when you are on your way?
> I think more interesting is the question how much more bumpy a ride with the Pogo is...
> 
> A real comfort-plus of the Pogo is the cockpit: Really huge and without an annoying wheel.


That's unfair to compare the Pogo 12.50 with the Elan 380 . I have compared it with the Jeanneau 409 because they cost about the same price and with the 350, that is less expensive (a lot) just to show what a great performer and cruiser that boat is. To be fair you should compare ir with the dufour 40e or the Elan 410, that are a bit less expensive than the Pogo.

If the boat is for racing, it would not be a good option (contrary to the Elan 350) because the boat is too penalyzed. For fast cruising, both the Elan 410 and the Dufour 40e have a much better interior, are more comfortable going upwind and cost a bit less (if we consider the boats with similar equipment)but the Pogo will have an advantage in what regards sailing in shallow waters. Well, not sailing , just to anchor because while sailing its draft is even bigger.

Regarding speed, from a comparative test with a Dufour 40e, it turns out that both boats will sail close to the wind at the same speed, but with a better angle for the Dufour, that the Dufour is more comfortable and that you can only notice a difference downwind, with the Pogo going several knots faster than the Dufour. The conclusion from the testers was that the Pogo is an Ocean bird and that it can only really make a big difference on Ocean Passages with trade winds.

Now, if you guys are interested in the Pogo, that is a great boat, I guess you should wait some months to have a look at the new Elan 40. The 410 is faster, but I bet that the new Elan 40 is going to be a bullet. That's not hard to figure: it is going to be a 350 with more 50cms

http://www.eureka.si/PS2009/files/ORC/SLO410.PDF

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 405 / Jeanneau SO 409 comparative boat test*

First comparative test for the Jeanneau 409 and with a great boat, the Dufour 405, last year's European boat of the year:



















Dufour 405 â€" Dufour 405 Sailboat â€" Boat factsheet

I am not going to talk about the interior (the Dufour has two options,the one above and other with a "classic" galley) neither about style or storage space. On all those items I prefer the Jeanneau, even if I also like the Dufour specially in the Classic version. I will only talk about performance.

Both boats were equipped with the performance rig. The Jeanneau should have a clear advantage, lighter 7450kg against 8990kg, stiffer (more ballast/displacement) and with more sail (93m2 against 83m2), it should have no problem beating the Dufour.

Both boats were not in the water at the same time (same crew). First in the water was the jeanneau and two hours later the Dufour. The wind was a bit more strong with the Dufour: 20K. With the Jeanneau about 16-18k.

Both boats go well against the wind (45º true wind). The Jeanneau makes 6,5/7k at 45º with 12k wind, but with 16/18k, with a bit more sea, just maintains the speed. The Dufour with 20k wind (all the sail up) at 45º makes about the same.

Downwind, with asymmetric and 18k wind the Jeanneau makes 8/9k with a surf a 10.6. with 20k wind and without asymmetric the Dufour makes 8.5/9.5 and with the asymetric it makes 10k with some surfs at 11k.

They have called a match null and say that with weaker winds probably the Jeanneau will be faster (and I agree).

Both boats show a somewhat heavy steering. I know what they mean I felt the same about the Dufour 425. Not heavy for a cruiser, but heavy for a performance boat.

Between the two I would still prefer the jeanneau but I am a bit disappointed with the jeanneau performance. The boat seems to be quite limited by hull speed and shows none of the characteristics of a semi-planning hull. Probably it will be faster than the Dufour but only marginally and mainly in week winds.

Well, both are great boats, but that's just not the kind of boat that I want.

Probably the Dufour 425 that I have charted in the summer is faster and I want a faster boat and most of all, a more rewarding and amusing boat to sail, but hey, for the ones that are not so mad about speed, these are three great fast cruisers at a fair price

Regards

Paulo


----------



## slap

Paulo -

When you tested the RM 1200, you indicated that you liked the X yacht that you had also tested better. How would the RM 1200 compare in sailing performance to these two boats?


----------



## PCP

slap said:


> Paulo -
> 
> When you tested the RM 1200, you indicated that you liked the X yacht that you had also tested better. How would the RM 1200 compare in sailing performance to these two boats?


Slap, some confusion here. I never sailed on a X yacht. I have sailed on a Luffe 40, on an Elan 380 and on an Opium 39. When I was in France to sail the RM 1200 I have sailed also the wauquiez Opium 39.

The RM 1200 has a huge stability and it's fast, if compared with the Jeanneau 409 or the Dufour 405 but you don't feel it. The one that I have sailed had a tiller and the wind was weak, 7/8K and the boat was making around 5.5/6.0K. That's good for a cruising boat but the tiller at that speed felt a little heavy and not much informative. The boat needed time to regain speed.

With the Wauquiez was like to pass from a BMW 3.0 diesel to a Porsche. The boat was making almost wind speed, sometimes and in on some sail positions more. The boat accelerated immediately and the steering was incredible, really good. I loved the boat and had a lot of fun sailing it. With 8/9K wind the boat was making 8k, sometimes a bit more and we were only using a 130% genoa, not even a geenaker.

Most would say that a BMW is better to travel than a Porsche and they are probably right (the RM is a true pilot house boat, you can see ahead from the chart table), but the Opium is pure passion with a good cruising interior.

If I could afford it, I would seriously consider it as my next boat. It has only a snag, the boat is not very fast motoring. With a 40hp engine the cruising speed is only 5.5/6K, but with such sailing potential the engine will be seldom used. The boat costs about more 20 000 euros more than a Dufour 40e or an Elan 410.

The 40X yacht is so expensive that I would not even dream of having one, but in what regards performance it would be close to a Dufour 40e (in top specs), a First 40 or an Elan 410. I believe that in weak winds the Wauquiez would be faster, but would not point so well (5º or less). With medium winds it would make about the same speed, and downwind with strong winds the Wauquiez would be a bit faster and a lot more stable.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

What rag did the comparison? That would be an interesting read, unless in some funky language, like Portuguese or something or other!?!?!LOLOL:laugher:laugher

Marty


----------



## blt2ski

LOL,

Goo info on the language will have to look up the widipedia link in a bit. Always fun to see funky stats. 

too bad I flunked french in HS. oh well. 

marty


----------



## OsmundL

*Next: a Sail Ferrari*

You like Ferrari, Paul. How about a Segelferrari? New of 2010 and showing at the Dusseldorf Boat Show this month, this should be a serious fun thing, only 24ft and at least within reach of people's budgets. Hydraulic swing keel, twin rudders, a minimalist interior and only 1300kg should get you moving.
The model isn't really named Segelferrari, only this boat is, so the name SegelMaserati should be available if you want one. The model name is Heol7, and they aim for 50 boats/year.
HEOL 7.4 - Blue Yachting - Bremen


----------



## PCP

*HEOL 7.4 , Defline 43 movie*

Thanks for posting . Yes I know and I love that boat and the concept. Yes I certainly will have a look at it (in Düsseldorf).

Look at the speed potential, 16K without too much trouble:

HEOL 7.4 Videos - Blue Yachting - Bremen

That's a Martin Defline design and that's the most innovative naval architect I know. I think he is so ahead that has some difficulty in attracting main manufacturers contracts, even if the the French like fast and modern boats his designs are just too radical, to out of the borders.

Take a look at his site. That concept of keel is also used on bigger boats, and if I had the money for it, I certainly would be interested

architecte naval - defline yacht architecture navale

I will post one of the more conventional boats. From this guy I would not mind 
to have a very conventional boat Conventional for him is pretty modern for everybody . I am talking about the Defline 43, pretty much the perfect bluewater cruiser. Fast, safe and comfortable....pity I am not rich

defline 43 qt - defline yacht architecture
































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

Wow!!
That's great!
Seems to be in the same price range like RM1200 and Pogo 12.50. So still not exaggerated! Is there a Polar available?
Ulf


----------



## myocean

The interior layout of the Defline 43 is very similar to the Cigale 14 - nearly a copy but on 43 ft only. Seems to be very convenient - am I right? I didn't expect that is possible on such a smaller sized boat.
I wonder why there are no more boats with this very interesting interior layout. What are the disadvantages?
Ulf


----------



## OsmundL

myocean said:


> The interior layout of the Defline 43 is very similar to the Cigale 14
> Ulf


Ulf, you mention Cigale, and I must confess to an irrational love of this boat. I've been aboard the 14 and 16 and could not get the aft saloon out of my head. Glass on three sides with those large windows facing aft and a positively enormous roundtable give associations to the pirate vessels of old - you know the ornamental overhangs aft where a Captain Morgan gathered his scoundrels and counted silver treasures?

Deckhouse yachts boast 360º views but tend to feel like a glasshouse or mobile home; in the Cigale you are in an acquarium down below and incredibly close on the sea. In every regard, the Cigale is a "social" concept meant to bring a crew together. The other side of this are the cabins - should I say sleeping quarters? They are cramped and more akin to sea bunks of a previous generation. To me this is so sensible and very rare when other boats are designed for boat shows: large luxurious double beds and "master bedrooms", blatantly trying to pretend you are not really at sea. The Cigale is just purposeful.

Here is also a photo of the new Cigale 16 under construction. Love that structure!


----------



## myocean

OsmundL said:


> give associations to the pirate vessels of old - you know the ornamental overhangs aft where a Captain Morgan gathered his scoundrels and counted silver treasures?


Yes, absolutely. I had the same association without realizing this link.
The Defline is certainly not as beautiful.

One more interesting boat again without such a nice aft saloon is the Heol 11.4 I just discovered. Totally different but quite ambitious....

11.5 m
5 800 Kg
with lifting keel(s)










Looks like this comes with a deckhouse as well!

Ulf


----------



## PCP

OsmundL said:


> Ulf, you mention Cigale, and I must confess to an irrational love of this boat. I've been aboard the 14 and 16 and could not get the aft saloon out of my head. Glass on three sides with those large windows facing aft and a positively enormous roundtable give associations to the pirate vessels of old - you know the ornamental overhangs aft where a Captain Morgan gathered his scoundrels and counted silver treasures?...


There is not nothing irrational about that  . I have saw the first Cigale 16 in Paris boat show....and it was just perfect. As you said, contrary of most big production boats, that look like floating condos, that one mean business all the way... meaning passage in comfort, cruising in comfort and living in comfort. A true sailing/living/dream machine.Good taste dreams are not irrational  

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Imagine 53*



myocean said:


> Yes, absolutely. I had the same association without realizing this link.
> The Defline is certainly not as beautiful.
> 
> One more interesting boat again without such a nice aft saloon is the Heol 11.4 I just discovered. Totally different but quite ambitious....
> 
> 11.5 m
> 5 800 Kg
> with lifting keel(s)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like this comes with a deckhouse as well!
> 
> Ulf


Five or six years ago I followed the concept (in its site) that originated the Heol series. I remember that there was also a 14m boat, that it is not on line anymore. It seems that he has passed from the drawings to the real thing. It has taken about 5 years for someone to invest in its smaller brother (Heol 7.4) and I am still waiting to see a 14m boat over the same concept.

Another boat that is really incredible is the "Imagine 53":

imagine 53 2qp - defline yacht architecture

"This bold sailboat designed by Martin Defline is equipped with two hydraulically operated canting keels. A central computer manages their angle depending on the heel, strength and wind angle. The keels can be raised on each side to reduce the draft to the approach of a shallow anchorage. This yacht is unique to our knowledge.

Frederick Augendre - "Voile et Voiliers"























































This ultra fast cruiser can easily sail with one of the keels out of the water. It is a development first tried with success on a smaller boat some years ago. It was amaizing to see it sailing with one bulbed keel out of the water

Now you can understand why I find this guy innovative. And he is quite young. Hopefully lots of good and wonderful things yet to come.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*J133, Zou 40.2*



myocean said:


> The interior layout of the Defline 43 is very similar to the Cigale 14 - nearly a copy but on 43 ft only. Seems to be very convenient - am I right? I didn't expect that is possible on such a smaller sized boat.
> I wonder why there are no more boats with this very interesting interior layout. What are the disadvantages?
> Ulf





myocean said:


> Wow!!
> That's great!
> Seems to be in the same price range like RM1200 and Pogo 12.50. So still not exaggerated! Is there a Polar available?
> Ulf


No, unfortunately it is not. These one off boats cost always a lot more than production boats even if its a small production like Pogo or RM.

That boat was made by Naval force 3 and a naked boat cost 260 000 € and the one in the photos (fully equipped for passage making) cost 430 000€ (With 19.6 VAT).

You have more details, on the boat test made by "Voile Magazine":

defline 43 qt - defline yacht architecture

I don't have a polar but the boat is really fast. On the test they say it goes almost at wind speed. That's a passage maker with the performances of a cruiser-racer

Regarding boats with the saloon on the back position one of the reason it is not used in small boats (less than 14m) is because the height of central part of the cockpit is too low and on the interior you have space laterally, but also a low central part that is intrusive and makes for a disagreeable central space.

But you have one that is made in small series that use that space, one that it seems you don't know and one that I am sure you are going to love, the Zou 40.2. The boat is made over a Class 40 hull and it is a kind of Pogo 12.50 with a better interior. Off course, it is more expensive, but it is a great boat. I have already talked about it, not about the boat but about the conclusions that the testers had taken from a test sail between that one and a J 133, that costs about the same price.

Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - J133 contre Zou 40.2

FoX Technology Zou 40.2 -Class40

You have to look here to see the images and videos:

Gallerie Photo du Zou 40.2



















You have also a used Zou 40 for sell (for a long time). I believe they would sell it for a lot less:

For Sale. CarÃ¨ne ZOU 40 - mÃ©ditÃ©rrannÃ©e - 1648133

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

I have found this Defline 43 photo and it is so nice I cannot resist to post it


----------



## OsmundL

*Speed vs Cruising*

This is a great thread; pity I didn't spot it earlier. Lots of interesting boats and info - but across a very wide spectrum! There appears to be an undertone *"I want to sail really fast - and I'd like to go cruising in it." *Wouldn't we all?

There are reasons why a clever designer hasn't built such a boat long ago. Many of the boats in this thread fail to tick the necessary boxes. Before you protest: I certainly do not mean that _all_ the boats in this thread fail the touring test - I'm only suggesting a critical look at each.

First, storage and buoyancy: beyond a few days of coastal cruising, most of us want more than a T-shirt and shorts. Pile in some weight and you can chuck these polar diagrams out the window.

An extreme example is the Dragonfly trimaran. I love the boat - great engineering, immaculate workmanship - but cruising? The 35 is possibly best of the series until the new 32 arrives; the 1200 is comfortable but way heavy for a tri - _before_ you load provisions. A DF1200 completed the ARC rally some weeks ago, and the crew posted their observations on the DF forum afterwards: _"As a rough guesstimate I would recommend multiplying the given numbers (in the polar diagrams) for 8-18knots of true wind speed by &#8230; maybe 0.66 in a boat equipped for cruising."_

The following is anecdotal and probably never to be repeated, but still: Last autumn I outsailed a Dragonfly 1000, a boat capable of 20 knots, in my touring Ovni 395. The winds were not strong, some 7-9 knots, not ideal for the "slow" Ovni. We happened to follow the same course, and I expected the tri to just lift off and disappear under the horizon, but after a couple of hours side by side it became obvious that Ovni pulled ahead. How so? Trimarans must stay light to perform, and this (German) tourist probably sailed with full holiday provisions. His tri just didn't have the buoyancy to go. A characteristic of good cruisers is that they maintain good performance under a range of loads.

What is a touring "load"? I found out in December when my 395 was trucked overland. The truck had a permitted load of 10,000kg and I said, _"No sweat, my boat is eight-something ton from the shipyard."_ How wrong! It tipped into the red on the truck's 10-tonne scale, implying stores of 1,5-2 ton. Disbelieving, I double-checked and conceded. 700L of water and fuel, dinghy, life raft, spare sails and ropes, galley and food, more tools than I ever hope to need, oil and misc. paints, washing machine and all the other extras, books, clothing and people - it adds up to way more than you think.

A Dragonfly 35 weighs 3900kg and takes a payload of 1500kg incl. crew. I doubt that it will be flying with 40% added weight?


----------



## myocean

I have discovered the Zou 40 when surfing on the Defline Website. But it's really expensive.
Looks really like a lot of fun!



PCP said:


> You have also a used Zou 40 for sell (for a long time). I believe they would sell it for a lot less:


Thats a good point...
I would prefer to select a boat which is easy to sell. I can invest my money into a good boat for the duration of a circumnavigation. But afterwards I need to sell again and have the (remaining) money available for a house.

Probably for such a plan a real high value mainstream boat like the First 40 or XP38 would be the right choice for me.  
OK, they are even great, but I am easily falling in love with the Pogo and look-alikes. And I like the lifting keel boats.


----------



## myocean

OsmundL said:


> most of us want more than a T-shirt and shorts. Pile in some weight and you can chuck these polar diagrams out the window.


Absolutely. However this is mostly a question of attitude towards life.
You don't NEED all the stuff. Think e.g. about people traveling around the world by motorbike (or bicycle!).
I have done long trips by sea kayak and any kind of sailing boat, even with minimalist equipment is already a big luxury.
You get used to what you have. Sure you like your washing machine but the more machines you have on your boat the more can break down. And the more clothes you have the more you will like your washing machine.
There is book from Hans Habek about his circumnavigation together with wife and son (3 years when starting) on an Etap21i.
This proves: If you CAN not take a lot of stuff with you it just works out. The big danger is the easiness of packing more and more in your big boat.

Well, sure, this is still all quite theoretical. I myself have not tried out where the (my) limits really are. Luxury is always a nice thing to have and this is why the Light Displacement Boats are not so popular.

Ulf


----------



## PCP

*Voyage*



OsmundL said:


> ..Lots of interesting boats and info - but across a very wide spectrum! There appears to be an undertone *"I want to sail really fast - and I'd like to go cruising in it." *Wouldn't we all?


Well, that is what I want for me, if you add to that : I Want to sail really fast, *have a lot of fun sailing it* and go cruising in it.

But this thread don't reflect only my personal tastes in what regards cruising, but also other tastes, other ways of cruising.

The key word is "interesting boats" and I would add, for any form of cruising and there are almost as ways of cruising as there are different sailors, from the ones that only want to make coastal cruising to the ones that occasionally cross oceans till the ones that are almost always crossing oceans.

And even among those different categories you will find the ones that like to be surrounded with all comforts, the ones that enjoy simple life and simple things, the ones that need to carry a lot and don't mind having a slower boat and the ones that travel light and want a light and fast boat. For some, cruising with a lot of stuff is indispensable. The emphasis go with cruising and sailing pleasure is not so important, efficiency and comfort is what counts most. For others, cruising and sailing comes in equal parts and from them an enjoyable and fast boat is indispensable for having pleasure, as much as a boat that can carry a good payload is indispensable for the first.



OsmundL said:


> There are reasons why a clever designer hasn't built such a boat long ago. Many of the boats in this thread fail to tick the necessary boxes. Before you protest: I certainly do not mean that _all_ the boats in this thread fail the touring test - I'm only suggesting a critical look at each.
> 
> First, storage and buoyancy: beyond a few days of coastal cruising, most of us want more than a T-shirt and shorts. Pile in some weight and you can chuck these polar diagrams out the window.
> ....
> What is a touring "load"? I found out in December when my 395 was trucked overland. The truck had a permitted load of 10,000kg and I said, _"No sweat, my boat is eight-something ton from the shipyard."_ How wrong! It tipped into the red on the truck's 10-tonne scale, implying stores of 1,5-2 ton. Disbelieving, I double-checked and conceded. 700L of water and fuel, dinghy, life raft, spare sails and ropes, galley and food, more tools than I ever hope to need, oil and misc. paints, washing machine and all the other extras, books, clothing and people - it adds up to way more than you think.


Well, that is your cruising life style I am quite sure that for crossing the Atlantic I will not need more than 200 liters of water, a watermaker, some 90 liters of fuel and a boat that can really sail well in 6/7K wind. Yes I would need food and personal luggage, but I bet I will carry 1/3 of what you will need. That's just my style and I have found a wife that can live with that.

And if you think I am mad or that is no way to make a passage, nor a fast and light boat is the right one, take a look at this link:

giebateau.web-log.nl: 030 Bestemming Antarctica

I know it is in Dutch, but you can see the pictures (and they are beautiful) if you can not read it. It is about a couple that is travelling extensively:

They left Holland in the boat the skipper finds more adequate for him, a First 40.7. *They are now exploring Antartica*. By the way they say that had got 60K winds and that while they were there 6 boats sink (probably true bluewater boats ). They say also that they have not found any particular problem that they could not handle safely.










They are just leaving....for Japan.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## OsmundL

myocean said:


> Absolutely. However this is mostly a question of attitude towards life. You don't NEED all the stuff.


I mentioned the washing machine deliberately - I knew it would get your juices flowing    
(In reality, it is no major factor either in weight or space). I don't want to derail this thread, it is too fun to watch the many good boats. I used to live in Australia and love travelling light, ultra light. You have to decide on either "light" or else "full survival mode." It's the in-between that kills you, with insufficient equipment yet little mobility.

My remarks are flavoured by where I sail, mostly in higher latitudes, and here "light" is not an easy option. You have to rely on good shore facilities, and they're often not. You need clothing and heating, there's no compromise. And your boat must be ready for a storm in inhospitable weather. Sailing from a wide open cockpit can be more than you as a mere mortal will endure - one reason why tiller steering has little going for it.

A quick note on "speed," another observation from the ARC Dragonfly sailors: _"You will find good reaching conditions in less than 5 % of the race."_ I have sailed two very similar trips from Biscay to Scandinavia, once in my Ovni and once in an Italian job almost 6ft longer and designed to compete with X-Yachts. Oh, it was elegant! On flat seas the first day I was impressed when it sailed near wind speed at 8 knots, but then wind and waves built and it slowed to a crawl, bashed and stalled into the seas. The greater heel made it uncomfortable, and we gave up on hot meals. After 2-3 days of this we needed an overnight break in harbor. The trip took two days longer than in the Ovni.

Also, consider crew. The Pogo 10.50 is certainly an "offshore-going" boat, but that does not make it a "cruiser." On a perfect day I envy guys in their Open 40s, but after 18 hours of single-handing, preparing a few meals and still not feeling tired, I thank my 395. *It is not on Day One you know that you've got a cruising yacht; it is after ten days or more*. If you count on having ample crew on easy 2-4 hour watches all the way, by all means sail a Pogo. If not, consider how to sail it when exhausted and the weather builds.

Enough from me on this. Bring on more boats, please!


----------



## OsmundL

PCP said:


> And if you think I am mad or that is no way to make a passage.Paulo


I don't think you are. Hell, people have crossed the Atlantic in a rowing boat (although for safety they must be accompanied). I highly recommend an old book titled "Jack the Crow." It is hilarious and describes one guy's voyage from the English waterways to the Black Sea in a Mirror Dinghy.

All I suggest is that people who go cruising know precisely what they planned for, and not leap for a "fast" boat hoping the negatives will go away. At least once a month I ache for a real screamer - a 14ft beach trimaran was the most fun I have had - but I think it will have to be my second boat, if I can afford it.


----------



## myocean

OsmundL said:


> All I suggest is that people who go cruising know precisely what they planned for, and not leap for a "fast" boat hoping the negatives will go away.


You are absolutely right with that. Your thoughts are very important!
Ulf


----------



## OsmundL

*The new Volkswagen*

Back on topic: here is a new boat that will raise some eyebrows, the Varianta 44. You will first dismiss it for the hideous green interior (I hope they give us alternatives), then for the spartan interior - it looks like a hospital - and finally for the sparse rig and equipment - it does not even sport a roller furler or an anchor locker, though they have a solution for the anchor. Another first: you buy it off the Internet.

All your gripes come, I suggest, before the price is mentioned: *starting at 100,000€ ($130,000) for a brand new 44 footer *in sailaway condition with a 40hp Volvo? It comes from the Hanse group, also owner of Dehler and Moody, and it fills the void for a "project" boat, one that is basically sound at a super low price point, where you can add things later. Before you dismiss it as "basic", consider how much easier it is to bring this one up to a personal standard, compared with trying to fix an old second-hand boat?

The hull is essentially a Hanse 430, it is a Judel/Vrolijk design - enough said? I don't think its sail performance will be too shabby. It is a shoe-in for sailing schools, and some have already ordered. On the site you'll find specs, polar diagrams and the first tests, and they'll have it at the Dusseldorf show.

Varianta Segelyachten - from Dehler with love

Personally, I fall for the stark interior. Teak lovers will loathe it, but cloth shelving is adequate, and you can improve on it if you wish. I just hope one can choose coconuts instead of bananas for the artistic "décor."


----------



## sailingdog

Not a very realistic photo of the cabin interior, since those pears and apples would be bound for the floor as soon as the boat got underway more likely than not... unless it was very, very calm.


----------



## OsmundL

PCP said:


> Yes, we have already talked and posted about it on this thread.


Shoot me. I thought I'd read this thread from end to end. Never again whisky for Christmas! Now I must go back to see what else I've missed. Could I interest any of you in the Presto 30? What year is it? 2010 soon?


----------



## OsmundL

PCP said:


> By the way, your Avatar, the Frog (Sapo) it is a popular character here. Paulo


That is not an avatar. It is how I look!    
Brilliant videos, thank you.

Sorry about the Presto - it was a poor hint at a joke. (I had read lots about it in this thread, and when I pretended not to know that, it was a way of saying: "Me OsmundL, me stupid."

To be serious, I'll be back with some boats shortly.


----------



## OsmundL

*Hammerhead 35*

The Hammerhead 35 seems to get a lot of attention at the London Boat Show (not to be confused with Hammerhead 34, a multihull that you've already shown in this thread).

The builder's description of the interior is an interesting perspective on the differing perceptions of "luxury." The builder says: "the finish of the Hammerhead 35 is focused on supreme luxury" and speaks of "the mirror smooth surfaces." It works for me, but for many the lack of wood is often a sign of the opposite, of saving and a lack of detail. As a totally subjective opinion I wonder if we should not consider the stark environment of the sea and be more open to looks like the HM35 - it is after all very easy to look after? Also, it reduces the number of screws and joints.

On the outside, most would approve of the sleek design - it looks fast even before you cast off. It is obviously intended to be fast, complete with a canting keel, maximised waterlength and a mean bowsprit. Looking at the unfinished hull, note the pronounced stepping from the bow.

There's a rich selection of high-tech materials in the construction, and it seems well equipped in standard form. Lots more detail to be found at:
Gower Yachts - Home of the Hammerhead 35

Please tell me you haven't already covered HM35


----------



## OsmundL

*They don't come smaller?*

Spotted this one at yachtpals, as photo of the week. No, it has not been Photoshopped!

It is a real boat, and claimed to be as small as a keelboat can be and still fit an adult, at under 8ft total length. It has a purpose, too: especially good for disabled sailors, a fleet of these compete in the Paralympics.

What struck me was that some of our members might see another advantage: "Sorry darling, I would love to bring you along, but there just isn't room."


----------



## Faster

OsmundL said:


> Spotted this one at yachtpals, as photo of the week. No, it has not been Photoshopped!
> 
> It is a real boat, and claimed to be as small as a keelboat can be and still fit an adult, at under 8ft total length. It has a purpose, too: especially good for disabled sailors, a fleet of these compete in the Paralympics.
> 
> What struck me was that some of our members might see another advantage: "Sorry darling, I would love to bring you along, but there just isn't room."


There have been various renditions of these 'mini 12's" modeled on the old 12 meter AC boats... Last time we were in Victoria the RVicYC had a fleet of a dozen or so, and regular weekly 'regattas'. They look like fun but probably kinda wet!!


----------



## PCP

OsmundL said:


> The Hammerhead 35 seems to get a lot of attention at the London Boat Show (not to be confused with Hammerhead 34, a multihull that you've already shown in this thread).
> 
> ....
> Please tell me you haven't already covered HM35


Nah! That's an interesting concept...but ugly boat in my opinion. Why such big "windows" on the interior? It's the "DS" of the sport boats?

"The amazing canting keel is remotely controlled via a fob worn around the skippers neck."

What the hell is a "fob"?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

PCP said:


> What the hell is a "fob"?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


A 'fob' is like a key ring tag, or in this case more like a remote keyless entry for your car. Waaay back when, people had 'watch fobs' to which their pocket watches were attached.



> fob 1 |fäb|
> noun (also fob chain)
> a chain attached to a watch for carrying in a waistcoat or waistband pocket.
> • a small ornament attached to a watch chain.
> • (also fob pocket) a small pocket for carrying a watch.
> • a tab on a key ring.


Unless, of course, we're talking about an FOB - Freakin' Obese Boater - generally found among the ranks of Stinkpotters!


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## blt2ski

THere is a fleet of the mini 12's here in Seattle too. IIRC a grudge type match once a year tween RVicYC ad SeattleYC, but do not quote me on that. They might even have slightly different mini 12's, as I believe there are a couple of variants. 

I like the H35. Altho similar to a schock 40 that was built in California a number of years ago, did not amount to much. Still a few around, Think one could still get built. But locally anyhow, you can not use the CK as one should with the rating system used, so there are very few canters around. I would think if a fleet could be made on a local basis, so CK boats raced against ea other, not against fixed keels or multi's, then one might find more on the horizon in smaller versions like this. Otherwise, unfortunately, one is buying for the most part, a one off boat that one can talk about at the dock/cruising etc, but be pretty useless for racing. 

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Pacer 376*

One that I find beautiful and that has also made some impression in Europe is the Pacer 376. It is a South African boat and in its cruising version has a nice interior. To have more space on the salon, galley and front cabin they chose to have open back cabins. An Ideal boat for a couple with kids.

The only problem regarding cruising would be the 2.4M draft . Most cruiser racers come now with drafts like that but propose also a more reduced draft (about 2.1). Maybe they don't have it on the technical characteristics but can have it done.

They will show this one on the Dusseldorf boat show. I am going to have a look at it and its price.























































Pacer Yachts :: Information on South Africa's finest yacht builders for sportboat sailing

Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

This is a very nice boat - and fast!
I will probably sail with this one on "Gotland Runt" this year. Let's see...

When you accept to live without doors, Pogo is part of the game again.

Ulf


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> ..
> When you accept to live without doors, Pogo is part of the game again.
> 
> Ulf


No, the doors are important to me. Privacy is important to me, I have grown up kids, soon they will be married or living with someone and I love to sail with the family and without doors, well, it would be a bit...humm, you get my drift

Besides after taking into consideration the kind of sailing I do and that I hope to still make (mostly coastal sailing with some offshore passages and an occasional ocean crossing), the Pogo is not the ideal boat in what regards sailing. The Pogo is really good if you want to travel extensively along the trade winds, but if you want to do the kind of sailing I want, a good traditional cruiser-racer is not less fast and it is more comfortable in a seaway.

Look at the results of the last Sydney-Hobart: There was a racing Pogo doing it (class 40) and it barely finished ahead from the fastest First 40 (10m). If Two True, the fastest First 40 had not retired (with engine problems) it would have stayed well ahead from the Pogo.

And that is not an accident, That Pogo is extensively raced by local racers and have made several Sydney- Hobart. In 2009, again, it stayed ahead from Paca (the first First on this year's edition) by only 8m, but Two True, the First 40 that was leading in compensated time this year's race (before retire), finished ahead the racing Pogo by 8 hours.

The kind of sailing I do have more to do with those conditions than with following the trade winds, were the Pogo is unbeatable

Regards

Paulo


----------



## OsmundL

*2011 - a good year*

*A general observation*: 2011 looks to be a very good year for sailboat design. We owe at least this to the recent year's financial circus. The large manufacturers have had to take their eye off boats rolling out the door and instead turn to development, and the marginal and also-rans have either been bought or gone down. You can probably count more new genuinely new models now than in the previous several years.

Another factor is that most have completed their transition to new production techniques and new materials that only began to mature ten years ago. The same goes for equipment all the way from engines and sails - will we see diesel-electrics? - to electronics. The product cycle is noticeably shorter. The big remaining question will be whether the buying public will be equally adventurous. Sailors are a conservative bunch.

*Some trends:
*Hard chines. Centerboards/Lifting keels, and twin keels - a surprising number of builders have added these to their range. Canting keels, yes - though I'd personally want these tested in numbers for at least 5-10 years before I rely on one. More glass. More light. Twin rudders. Better speed - motorsailors are gone from most markets, replaced by the less loaded term "Decksaloon", and these must increasingly improve speed to stay competitive.

Finally - and this may be too early to call: more boats adapted to families and individuals? The charter market has always been responsible for soaking up large numbers of beamy, roomy and under-rigged floating palaces with far too many cabins for private owners' needs. This market also drove the equipment market towards mass production of "average" quality - and a company like Lewmar almost went under when the bottom fell out of the market. Lately, Lewmar has rediscovered the after-market and new products. Judging by where innovation seems to occur now, we may be seeing more "real" sailboats - one hopes 

I am a bit of an optimist. Perhaps that is why is see the 2011 market as closer to the 1970s when sailing interest peaked and great boats were made? There has been development in between, but now we see a mature crop where almost no boat is truly bad, and new materials and designs have lifted interiors a whole level across the board.

_A quick retort to Paulo:
_


PCP said:


> Nah! That's an interesting concept...but ugly boat in my opinion. Why such big "windows" on the interior? It's the "DS" of the sport boats?
> Paulo


Well, there's no accounting for taste   
The greater glass areas in new boats owes much to new materials - an extreme example being the Sirius 35DS in this thread, with hull ports in bulletproof polycarbonate almost three times the thickness of German Army bulletproof staff cars. The tiny pigs' eye round ports of the 1960's boats had to do with adapting to leaking frames, the imperfect strength and price of glass, and hull materials not permitting large glass areas to be stable or secure. Personally, I see many reasons to have large glass areas and almost none favoring the opposite, if we disregard sailing in Polar Regions. A big plus comes for single-hand sailors: you don't want to go below and lose all connection to the business end outside.

I'll follow up with a brief summary of more boats - they do proliferate!


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> There was a racing Pogo doing it (class 40) and it barely finished ahead from the fastest First 40 (10m). If Two True, the fastest First 40 had not retired (with engine problems) it would have stayed well ahead from the Pogo.


So here we are again. >>> First 40 is faster? <<<

We had this discussion before and you said..



PCP said:


> Who says that?
> 
> Regarding the polars they consider flat water. With waves, probably the First will drag less water and certainly will be more comfortable , but I doubt that it will be faster, at least with all the winds. Anyway the difference will not be big.


So meanwhile it seems the difference is not big, but Pogo has the tendency to be slower in mixed wind conditions, right?

Ulf

PS: How would you rate a Defline 43 in comparison?


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> So here we are again. >>> First 40 is faster? <<<
> 
> ...
> So meanwhile it seems the difference is not big, but Pogo has the tendency to be slower in mixed wind conditions, right?
> 
> Ulf
> 
> PS: How would you rate a Defline 43 in comparison?


The Defline is fast but it is on another category. It will be slower than the Pogo12.50 or the First. It is a more heavy boat more orientated for passage making and it is with the same type of boats that he should be compared. For instance with the RM 1300. And I don't know if it will be faster cause the RM 1300 is a very fast boat

Besides the facts that I have pointed out regarding the Sydney Hobart race, I am just guessing but I would say that when things get rough upwind, the First 40 will have the upper hand (and will provide a smother ride).

By what is said on the tests, from 90º to the true wind to downwind, the Pogo will be faster. The main difference will be downwind with winds over 20K.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Hammerhead 35*



OsmundL said:


> *A general observation*: 2011 looks to be a very good year for sailboat design. We owe at least this to the recent year's financial circus. The large manufacturers have had to take their eye off boats rolling out the door and instead turn to development, and the marginal and also-rans have either been bought or gone down. You can probably count more new genuinely new models now than in the previous several years.
> 
> Another factor is that most have completed their transition to new production techniques and new materials that only began to mature ten years ago. The same goes for equipment all the way from engines and sails - will we see diesel-electrics? - to electronics. The product cycle is noticeably shorter. The big remaining question will be whether the buying public will be equally adventurous. Sailors are a conservative bunch.
> 
> *Some trends:
> *Hard chines. Centerboards/Lifting keels, and twin keels - a surprising number of builders have added these to their range. Canting keels, yes - though I'd personally want these tested in numbers for at least 5-10 years before I rely on one. More glass. More light. Twin rudders. Better speed - motorsailors are gone from most markets, replaced by the less loaded term "Decksaloon", and these must increasingly improve speed to stay competitive.
> 
> Finally - and this may be too early to call: more boats adapted to families and individuals? The charter market has always been responsible for soaking up large numbers of beamy, roomy and under-rigged floating palaces with far too many cabins for private owners' needs. This market also drove the equipment market towards mass production of "average" quality - and a company like Lewmar almost went under when the bottom fell out of the market. Lately, Lewmar has rediscovered the after-market and new products. Judging by where innovation seems to occur now, we may be seeing more "real" sailboats - one hopes
> ...


Nice insight . I would add twin wheels, bigger and more hull ports, broader sterns and beam brought aft and electric winches that can "push and pull" without taking out the line. Also the keels are becoming thinner, with almost all the weight brought down to a bulb.

Regarding better mass production boats, what we are seeing is that almost all producers are presenting very well designed inexpensive boats (that will be used like that on the charter business) but boats that can be upgraded with lots of extras (no luxury things, but better quality equipment) to a good quality sailing boat, with very good performance. These upgrades go in some cases till the hull, that can be upgrade to epoxy or vinilester and to complete performance rigs (sails, masts, running rigging) and even better keels. The upgraded boat and the standard boat are miles apart... as it is its price, that can be 50% or more.



OsmundL said:


> _A quick retort to Paulo:
> _
> 
> Well, there's no accounting for taste
> The greater glass areas in new boats owes much to new materials - an extreme example being the Sirius 35DS in this thread, with hull ports in bulletproof polycarbonate almost three times the thickness of German Army bulletproof staff cars. The tiny pigs' eye round ports of the 1960's boats had to do with adapting to leaking frames, the imperfect strength and price of glass, and hull materials not permitting large glass areas to be stable or secure. Personally, I see many reasons to have large glass areas and almost none favoring the opposite, if we disregard sailing in Polar Regions. A big plus comes for single-hand sailors: you don't want to go below and lose all connection to the business end outside.
> ..


I don't have nothing against large glass areas, if they are structurally sound, but having them up in the air in a boat that will be used mainly for racing or performance sailing, has no sense. In a racing boat (or in a very fast boat) a big house like the one that we can see on the Hammerhead 35 is prejudicial to performance. On a fast boat we want the wind on the sails, not laterally on the hull or in the house, making the boat drift sideways and losing way.

On Architectural jargon we use to say that form follows function and that the beauty comes from there. On the Hammerhead case the main function is performance (canting keel) but the rest of the design, mainly the cabin height is not designed accordingly and if that cabin was not so discordantly high you would not have space for those big glasses. Voilá, that's what I was trying to express when I have said that the boat was ugly.










Regards

Paulo


----------



## OsmundL

*High is no advantage*

We are agreed, really; without the measurements I'm just not sure that the Hammerhead 35 is so high.

The determining factor is often the height of the cockpit; you do after all need some head height to step down into the saloon, and that determines the height of the coach roof. Low cockpits are in favor with me, but you hear people worrying about the low-down decks of the "Open" style - I guess they have visions of being swept overboard by a wave  

High cockpits can be the result of engine placement, and more frequently by the demands for rear cabins. This is how centre cockpit boats often come to look absurdly high.

While on the issue of prejudice: I heard one sailor reacting to the "low freeboard" of a boat, viewing it as a safety issue. This must be a throwback to the old-style ketches and Colin Archers and so forth, very tall structures. They make you feel high and safe from the ocean - until the waves begin, that is. If I were to seek safety, I'd certainly not be looking for boats with a high freeboard.

I am very curious to see how the Moody 45 will be received, and now others trying to follow, such as the Beneteau Sense. These attempts to bring cockpit and saloon to a "walk-through" common level don't do much for windage, though they appear very convenient.


----------



## PCP

*A 35*



OsmundL said:


> We are agreed, really; without the measurements I'm just not sure that the Hammerhead 35 is so high.
> 
> The determining factor is often the height of the cockpit; you do after all need some head height to step down into the saloon, and that determines the height of the coach roof. Low cockpits are in favor with me, but you hear people worrying about the low-down decks of the "Open" style - I guess they have visions of being swept overboard by a wave
> ...
> While on the issue of prejudice: I heard one sailor reacting to the "low freeboard" of a boat, viewing it as a safety issue. This must be a throwback to the old-style ketches and Colin Archers and so forth, very tall structures. They make you feel high and safe from the ocean - until the waves begin, that is. If I were to seek safety, I'd certainly not be looking for boats with a high freeboard.
> 
> ....


It is high for a performance boat. Take a comparison with the A35, one of the most beautiful and successful of the really fast 35fter (more than a hundred sold). A lot Less free-board and a lot less cabin height. Off course it will be more low inside (it has standing height on the saloon), but on a really performance boat designers should give preference to warranty less windage.










Yes you are right about high freeboard. It is one of the worse features in what regards dynamic stability and breaking waves.

About the Archimbault 35, I think I have talked about it but not posted about it. It is a wonderful boat for the ones that don't mind about open cabins. The boat has everything it is needed for cruising and is also a very good offshore boat an ideal boat for solo sailing. Regarding racing, it has won an incredible number of major races. I find it more beautiful than the Elan 350, even if the Elan has better cruising interiors (it has doors ).









































































I have been inside one of these and I can tell you that it has a cosy interior and that it really does not have that "plastic" look many of these boats have.

BATEAUX ARCHAMBAULT

Regards

Paulo


----------



## OsmundL

*Farr 400 and J108*

More novelties:
*J-boats* have a good name in the industry, and they now embrace lifting keels. The *J95* (pictured below) was already available with a lifting keel and earned a Boat of the Year Award, and now the J109 can be had under the name *J108* with a lifting keel - or a "pivoting centreboard", in J-Boats terminology. Keel down gives the same 7ft keel depth as J109, but withdrawn it can sail in 4ft. Yes, they claim it can _sail_ with the keel up.
J/Boats: Better Sailboats for People Who Love Sailing. The Ultimate Cruising-Racing-One-Design Sailboats. Try J Sailing Gear, Sailing Clothing, Sailing Calendar, Caps, Vests, Jackets, T-Shirts, Books

For the racing crowd, what better than a Farr 40? It has been a fixture at race meets for a very long time, but now it has an heir: the *Farr 400*. 
The Farr 400 hasn't got a natural fiber in its body, other than the lead in the keel. Farr merely calls it "an all carbon 40ft racing yacht" and they're not just referring to the hull. The mast is of course carbon, but so is the standing rigging, and the two primary winches are carbon. 
The ballast ratio is 60% - you're meant to do some low flying upwind. Do I have photos of the interior? Nah - the people wanting Farr 400 probably couldn't care less.
Farr Yacht Design


----------



## OsmundL

*And a new X-Yacht*

*X-Yachts 38
*When you want to combine performance with comfort, I think it is hard to go past X-Yachts. These Danish boats are quality throughout, and you can be fooled by their looks - they appear too luxurious to be performers - but they are.
The new *X-Yacht 38* won't be available untill summer, but in that size range it won't be short of customers. The Polar diagram says it will do 12 knots in around 20 knots of wind, with foresail only it is meant to reach 14 knots when the wind builds to 28 knots+
In the new model, X-Yachts' customary steel frame construction is replaced with a carbon frame.
X-Yachts


----------



## myocean

Dear OsmundL,
this is not new to us. XP38 has already been discussed in this thread: see page 56. I think we should try not to repeat ourselves even though this thread is already quite long. Obviously any new entrant is recommended to read from the beginning in order to avoid useless repetitions.
I think the more repetitions we collect here the more difficult it becomes to get or keep an overview.
Best Regards,
Ulf


----------



## OsmundL

*Apologies*



myocean said:


> Dear OsmundL,
> this is not new to us. XP38 has already been discussed in this thread. Best Regards,
> Ulf


Profound apologies! I actually did a Search for it in the thread just to be sure, because I could not recall it being discussed. The search came up with so many false leads - lots of mentions of Bavaria - that I gave up and felt safe.

I'll be more cautious now - very cautious. And probably very quiet


----------



## myocean

Actually I really like the XP38 very much.
It is in the same price range like your Ovni. What do you think about the two in comparison? What would you miss on an XP38?
Ulf


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> Actually I really like the XP38 very much.
> It is in the same price range like your Ovni. What do you think about the two in comparison? What would you miss on an XP38?
> Ulf


Hi ulf.

I think the boat you should compare the OVNI is not one from the performance series of X-Yacht, but from the Xc series (c for cruising). There is also a 38 on that series (a recent boat). We have talked about it and it's a great boat even if it represents a completely different aproach to cruising, compared to the one from OVNI. I also would be interested in hear what Osmundl think about the two in comparaison taking as departing point his cruising needs.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## OsmundL

*Rave rave rave*



myocean said:


> Actually I really like the XP38 very much.
> It is in the same price range like your Ovni. What do you think about the two in comparison? What would you miss on an XP38?
> Ulf


Bloody good question! I have to think carefully about this, and I'm not even sure my initial response will be the final. I have the sinking feeling that it will end up with Pros and Cons.

To get one elephant out of the room right away: I am _not_ going to say "Aluminum". While I have preferences for it, I do not think material choice is decisive - composites also have a lot going for them.

*Rig*: I sometimes wish for the X-38 rig. My Ovni has a large overlapping Genoa, which is great for going downwind on Genoa alone. On the other hand it is heavy to tack and slow to furl, but most of all the X-38 balance with a larger main sails sharper and gives finer control upwind. In favor of the Ovni, its rig is massively strong, with enough stays to keep an Airbus from lifting. A couple of years ago I stupidly headed into a 38-knot wind without a single reef (being lazy, I knew I was rounding a cape in 5 minutes if I could last). It felt surprisingly safe (though it would have moved faster with a reef or two). An inner forestay on the Ovni gives you the option of a small jib, handy.

*Keel:* When all is said, I suppose this would be the decider. It is where the X-38 gains a sailing advantage, but Ovni's lifting keel is more than a gimmick. Some examples: I've hit a huge timber log in the North Sea; the keel tipped back undamaged, the rudder likewise - I've also risked light groundings with barely a scratch in the antifouling. It sits flat on sandy beaches like a brick - I can get out and scrape barnacles at will. Less obvious: in marinas with Med moorings and anchor chains lurking everywhere, you lift the keel and don't worry. That keel is going to save me a lot of money. You also motor with the keel up, BTW, gaining some 0,2 knots. I would like the Ovni to point higher, but that applies mostly to light winds < 7 knots or hard wind > 30 knots.

*Hull:* Ovni has a very steady motion in sea, should be sailed relatively flat (<10-12 degrees heel is normal) and holds its course. In steady breeze on a tack I skip the autopilot and tie down the wheel, she goes like a train. In the long run, the greater heel of an X-38 becomes a (dis)comfort factor, even though she's a fine boat in sea.

*Cockpit:* this is clearly a subjective preference, but X-38 is just too open for my kind of sailing. I need a sprayhood - indeed I replaced the canvas sprayhood on Ovni with my very own fiberglass structure, giving far better visibility in rain. In combinations of cold, wind and rain, some shelter in the cockpit is virtually a necessity for enduring 10-12 hours of sailing. This is something you know for sure in situations when top standard Musto ocean gear over wool in several layers still leaves you cold. The human machine must also function.

*Finish and such:* X-38 is exquisite craftsmanship and Ovni does not try to compete on luxury feel. The emphasis has been on practicality, keeping costs down, while still giving a timber feel inside and a pleasant environment. For me the quality is easily sufficient, and things just work.

*Climate:* I cannot speak for the X-38 here, but doubt that the Ovni can be beat for interior climate. It is so dry and condensation free that it surprises me every time. Left for months in winter without heating it is drier when I return than when I left it. This is due to insulation, good ventilation through dorades, not to forget a deck and cabin that is hermetically sealed from water - all welded deck fittings and no through-hull bolts.

*Practical details:* Once you've had a strong targa like mine, you're spoilt. Every day you sling a rope around it for some purpose, lower a dinghy - or as the kids of a friend: dive from it! Installations go there - antennae, wind genny, a radar, EPIRB. A bosun's hook tucks in.

*Overall:* I am impressed with all X-Yachts. This is very individual, but if I should have a reservation about them (and all of their type) it is that they give you _some_ extra performance but not enough. If your focus is regatta, they fit right in. If you enjoy fast sailing, why not go all out and really notice the speed?

The Ovni is adequate and can be fun; a friend recorded a max of 11,6 knots on his maiden voyage in a 365. I count _averages_ of 5-6 knots long distance and become very impatient if it drops below 5 knots. 9 knots downwind on Genoa goes well, and a Gennaker fills in the gap. In most conditions you're talking 1-2 knots more in X-38, but in heavy seas probably less. Sometimes when we judge sailboats, we rely too much on optimal wind, and they are after all not the rule. You spend a lot of time out there...


----------



## PCP

OsmundL said:


> More novelties:
> *J-boats* have a good name in the industry, and they now embrace lifting keels. The *J95* (pictured below) was already available with a lifting keel and earned a Boat of the Year Award, and now the J109 can be had under the name *J108* with a lifting keel - or a "pivoting centreboard", in J-Boats terminology. Keel down gives the same 7ft keel depth as J109, but withdrawn it can sail in 4ft. Yes, they claim it can _sail_ with the keel up.
> ...


I have seen that one at the Paris boat show. It has a very well made interior with good quality overall and it is a very nice boat with an interesting concept, but I doubt they are going to be a success. They would not directly appeal to the more oriented racing sailors and at that price!!!! ...You could get a much bigger and faster performance cruising boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Ovni 395*



OsmundL said:


> ....
> *Cockpit:* this is clearly a subjective preference, but X-38 is just too open for my kind of sailing. I need a sprayhood - indeed I replaced the canvas sprayhood on Ovni with my very own fiberglass structure, giving far better visibility in rain. In combinations of cold, wind and rain, some shelter in the cockpit is virtually a necessity for enduring 10-12 hours of sailing. This is something you know for sure in situations when top standard Musto ocean gear over wool in several layers still leaves you cold. The human machine must also function.
> 
> ....
> *Overall:* I am impressed with all X-Yachts. This is very individual, but if I should have a reservation about them (and all of their type) it is that they give you _some_ extra performance but not enough. If your focus is regatta, they fit right in. If you enjoy fast sailing, why not go all out and really notice the speed?
> 
> The Ovni is adequate and can be fun; a friend recorded a max of 11,6 knots on his maiden voyage in a 365. I count _averages_ of 5-6 knots long distance and become very impatient if it drops below 5 knots. 9 knots downwind on Genoa goes well, and a Gennaker fills in the gap. In most conditions you're talking 1-2 knots more in X-38, but in heavy seas probably less. Sometimes when we judge sailboats, we rely too much on optimal wind, and they are after all not the rule. You spend a lot of time out there...


You are comparing it with the Xp-38?

I don't understand what you mean regarding the sprayhood. The Xp 38 has a sprayhood as an option.

The OVNI 395 is a nice cruising boat, but a sailor interested in one would never have looked seriously to a XP 38 as an option and vice versa. The 395 is a boat that needs at least 10k of wind to get a decent speed. The X 38 needs half of that to have about the same speed. With medium winds yes, you would be talking about 1,5/2K difference, but that is huge, even on a cruising boat. Cruising sailors mount folding propellesr just to get 0.5K more speed

Downwind with medium/strong winds, the OVNI has good performance, but if the XP 38n is not with excess load you can get 14K, comparing with 10K on the 395.However the biggest difference would be upwind, with the Xp making 30º to true wind and the OVNI making 50º. On bad weather with strong winds and waves the difference between the ability to make way upwind would be enormous, with the OVNI finding quickly its limits in what regards making way against a strong wind and an heavy see.

Of course, the OVNI has many advantages in what regards cruising being one of them to be able to carry a much bigger payload and to see its performances less affected by the extra weight.

Regards

Paulo


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## OsmundL

*Those abstract numbers*



myocean said:


> Actually I really like the XP38 very much.
> It is in the same price range like your Ovni. What do you think about the two in comparison? What would you miss on an XP38?
> Ulf


Thanks for pushing me to look closer. Why not put some vital stats of Xp-38 alongside Ovni 395? The similarities are striking, although nuances are obvious. Luckily, the two have identical LWL, making for sensible comparison.

There is a set of formulae often used for estimating performance and so forth; you can find them at US Sailing:
Sailboat Design and Stability

All possible caution should be exercised with these formulae; they are oversimplified compared to what designers work with, but they are a guide if no more. If you disagree with them, don't shoot the messenger! In the right column I have posted part of the explanations given at the site (they are not my opinions, or if they are I didn't know).

The page gives brief summaries on topics such as stability, the most poignant being: "most important factor is an experienced crew," in part based on debriefings from the Sydney-Hobart. Personally I am skeptical of the "capsizing formula" when real-life conditions are more black and white than this. As stated on the site, "A 40 foot sailboat no matter how stable will not consistently survive a 22 foot breaking wave. Thus, in a strong gale with 22 foot seas and breaking waves, a 40 foot sailboat is at risk of capsizing no matter how stable." It is simple math of LOA versus wave height. By the same token, waves don't come alone, and even a fully capsized boat has a chance of being righted by a following wave.

Back on topic: Taking the formulae at face value, the Ovni and Xp-38 have identical hull speed. The Ovni lags Xp-38 but actually peeps into "racer" territory when it comes to SA/D. Ovni is also a long way off the "heavy cruiser" category regards D/L, though not in the light X-38 class. The remaining calculations are within sight of each other - Xp-38 somewhat stiffer, Ovni somewhat higher on comfort, with stability measures in shared territory - neither brilliant but within sight of acceptable.

Real differences, not revealed in formulae, lie in sail handling gear, details in hull shape and more. I noted the claim that X-38 can "plane" - just for reference: so does Ovni, and it can do it with the keel up. Good fun!

Overall, the numbers resonate with gut feelings, that both are good boats and in real-life usage not as dramatically different as one might assume.


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## OsmundL

PCP said:


> You are comparing it with the Xp-38?


Sure. The Xp-38 I just posted, because I was too dumb to read threads.



PCP said:


> I don't understand what you mean regarding the sprayhood. The Xp 38 has a sprayhood as an option.


I know that, of course. My reference is to sailing with one, which compromises upwind performance of the Xp-38, even if in a minor way - it goes against "the concept."



PCP said:


> The OVNI 395 is a nice cruising boat, but a sailor interested in one would never have looked seriously to a XP 38 as an option and vice versa.


Not true! I would, and have. Many sailors are on the borderline between two types of boat.



PCP said:


> The 395 is a boat that needs at least 10k of wind to get a decent speed. The X 38 needs half of that to have about the same speed. With medium winds yes, you would be talking about 1,5/2K difference, but that is huge, even on a cruising boat. Cruising sailors mount folding propellesr just to get 0.5K more speed
> 
> Downwind with medium/strong winds, the OVNI has good performance, but if the XP 38n is not with excess load you can get 14K, comparing with 10K on the 395.However the biggest difference would be upwind, with the Xp making 30º to true wind and the OVNI making 50º. On bad weather with strong winds and waves the difference between the ability to make way upwind would be enormous, with the OVNI finding quickly its limits in what regards making way against a strong wind and an heavy see.


Again, this is exaggerated. In 7 knots wind Ovni goes happily upwind; I draw the line at 6 knots, it certainly does not need 10. And yes, folding propeller is a given. Yes, Xp-38 is very good upwind, but your angles are exaggerated. 50º upwind? Nope. 30º _apparent_ wind is my preferred gauge reading, and that can be up to 5º worse than good boats, but nowhere near 50º to _true_ wind. My lazy rule is to tack through 90º or a bit less. The trick to handling it upwind in strong winds is to reef, then it pounds along. Anecdotal but true: a year ago a whole bunch of boats of all sizes were shorebound for more than a week near the worst cape in Norway, with light gales against. In the end I got impatient and sailed past - and I was the only one. It was wet but fun. I doubt very much that I was the brave hero here - I just trusted my boat more.

I want to avoid pitching Ovni against Xp-38 because the thread is more interesting without, but it is sometimes worthwhile to tune down some apparent differences.



PCP said:


> Of course, the OVNI has many advantages in what regards cruising being one of them to be able to carry a much bigger payload and to see its performances less affected by the extra weight. Regards
> Paulo


To be honest, that is one of those stock replies many give to "cruisers," an almost backhanded compliment; the understatement being "not much of a sailboat." I have been trying to show that e.g. Ovni can give a good sailing experience, and that seeking the middle road - which an Xp-38 is, after all - just isn't sexy enough for me. When I want to go fast, I want something much more lively than an X-Yacht. Xp-38 is a 38ft, 14,000 pound yacht no matter how you turn it. And the little addendum "affected by extra weight" is a harsh reality that modifies those theoretical ideals a great deal.

I am trying to define the following: There are good *racing* boats - you've had a few in this thread. There are *cruisers*. Then there are what I'd call "*regatta boat*s": quicker than cruisers and good because you can enter races, but nowhere close to the exhilaration of racers. To me, the latter are the real compromises.

I am not trying to promote Ovni, so on with more boats, everybody!


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## PCP

OsmundL said:


> ...
> Not true! I would, and have. Many sailors are on the borderline between two types of boat.


Osmundl,

On this thread I try to be fair about all kinds of boats. What I mean when I say that a typical sailor would not chose between an OVNI and s Xp-38 and vice versa it is becauseit is not logical to pass from a relatively slow boat to a top performance boat. There would have several boats in between, from a relatively fast cruiser like the Dufour 405 or the Jeanneau 409, to fast cruisers like the Jeanneau 409 with a performance rig or the RM 1200. What would be normal about that border line, would be to cross to the next step, or even two steps, not from one side to another



OsmundL said:


> Again, this is exaggerated. In 7 knots wind Ovni goes happily upwind; I draw the line at 6 knots, it certainly does not need 10....


Of course you can, but I was talking about a decent speed. With 7K wind you will be doing about 3K, the Xp 38 will be doing about 6K.



OsmundL said:


> Yes, Xp-38 is very good upwind, but your angles are exaggerated. 50º upwind? Nope. 30º _apparent_ wind is my preferred gauge reading, and that can be up to 5º worse than good boats, but nowhere near 50º to _true_ wind. My lazy rule is to tack through 90º .....


No, you are confusing true wind with apparent wind. When you say that you tack through 90º you are saying that you are making 45º to the true wind. What I am saying is that the Xp makes 30º to the *true wind*. That's a huge difference, as it was to be expected. Those 45º degrees would be obtained not easily. It would be needed a lot of wind. Read what they say about the OVNI 395 sail performance on this test (and these guys are used to test all kind of boats):

"6K real wind, it's very little for this sailboat, the use of the engine is needed...
We can go till 50º of the true wind, when the wind increases to 20k we can make 45º to the true wind..."

Ovni 395 : un dÃ©riveur intÃ©gral qui tient ses promesses

I never sailed an Ovni 395, but on the many thousands of miles I have made with my Bavaria 36 (long keel, performance rig and good sails) I have always outsailed Ovnis (even the 435) and similar boats and I have a pretty good idea of their comparative performance. Even against the Bavaria, that could outperform on speed and heading an Oceanis 390 (by 5º), an OVNI would point about 10º worse (5º worse than an Oceanis) and the Xp 38 would outperform the Bavaria pointing ability for almost 10º.

Osmundl, I like the OVNI 395, I love the concept and that one is even well designed, but there are no miracles and the boats perform accordingly with what they are designed for. The OVNI is like a four wheel drive, It can go everywhere, but as all good four whell drive, it is not fast specially if compared with a Xp38 that would be like a sleek sports car. It would not be fair to compare a Porsche with a jeep. They are not designed to do the same thing, but in what regards speed... well there are a huge difference.

Regards

Paulo


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## OsmundL

*This but no more*



PCP said:


> Osmundl,
> Iit is not logical to pass from a relatively slow boat to a top performance boat. There would have several boats in between, from a relatively fast cruiser like the Dufour 405 or the Jeanneau 409, to fast cruisers like the Jeanneau 409 with a performance rig or the RM 1200.


To me, that's just silly. Why go in-between? The differences are too marginal for my tastes.



PCP said:


> Of course you can, but I was talking about a decent speed. With 7K wind you will be doing about 3K, the Xp 38 will be doing about 6K.


You are telling me how fast my boat sails    Sorry, but this is where you are wrong. I do not do "3 knots" in 7k upwind, I do between 5,4 and 6. The moment wind drops below 7, however, you would be right, Ovni just loses it. I do log these figures and have done so for many thousand miles, including times between ports for a double check; you rely on the (not too many) tests that exist. Downwind, in the same wind and without the aid of a gennaker, you would be right, it manages only ½ wind speed in those conditions, not good, as I said earlier.



PCP said:


> No, you are confusing true wind with apparent wind. When you say that you tack through 90º you are saying that you are making 45º to the true wind. What I am saying is that the Xp makes 30º to the *true wind*. That's a huge difference, as it was to be expected. Those 45º degrees would be obtained not easily. It would be needed a lot of wind.


I am _not_ confusing apparent and true wind, which is why I put the words in italics before - and I do actually understand that there's a fair way from this to 30º true   Of course 90º implied 45º - but you are again wrong when you say "not easily". As I said, I use 45/90 as _my rule of thumb_ when tacking; I could push the boat higher but this is a good medium and easy for setting waypoints. It does not need "strong winds" to manage that. I have not mentioned sailing with the jib on inner stay - it obviously points higher with that. I can give you figures, I am not making them up.



PCP said:


> I never sailed an Ovni 395, but on the many thousands of miles I have made with my Bavaria 36 (long keel, performance rig and good sails) I have always outsailed Ovnis (even the 435) and similar boats and I have a pretty good idea of their comparative performance.


Precisely, you have not sailed it. When you say "even the 435" it shows that you have not experienced enough of these boats. The 435 is not as good a sailor as the 395 - and the 365 is probably even better for its size. 
I would _never_ try to say an Ovni is a match for Xp-38, but have tried to show that your comparison to a "jeep" is out of order. There certainly are "jeeps" out there, but they are in yet another league.

My very point, stated a few times now, is that Xp-38 _is_ no Porshce.

We could - but should not - exchange figures and estimates forever, but it is our usage and intentions that differ and cause these differences. I am consistently referring only to performance in relation to purpose.
See my next post for a personal "statement."

I am of course glad you like the Ovni  And I like Xp-38


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## OsmundL

*This is me*

*I have a personal relationship with boats*. There is no reason why anyone else should agree with this, I just put it out so you know where I come from:

I am a bit of a purist. If I had a Porsche, it would hurt to attach a hanger and carry garden refuse to the tip with it. It would feel like a violation of purpose.

In the same way, if I had a high performance yacht, I would feel pain when filling a hundred liters of water, more pain when loading a rubber dinghy on deck, and I'd have diarrhea loading it down with diving equipment and a pushbike for the trips ashore. Every little bit that compromises its performance would give me bad vibes. At other times, I would be annoyed at all the gear I have to unload to be competitive in a regatta. If I had a racing boat it would be on the leading edge, and I'd keep it for that only.

This is why I say, and repeat, that for me there are *racers* (that I would spare the agony of carrying supplies) and there are *cruisers*. The middle road is not for me.

But that's me. I can see lots of reasons why others choose differently.


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## PCP

OsmundL said:


> You are telling me how fast my boat sails    Sorry, but this is where you are wrong. I do not do "3 knots" in 7k upwind, I do between 5,4 and 6. ...


6K upwind with 7 k wind and better than 45º of true wind ...howww! You should race your boat, with the low rating it has it is going to win everything on compensated time

You are right, the difference for the Xp 38 is very small, he only can make 6.2 at 45º. At a better angle than 45º it will make the same speed as your boat and its rating is muuuuch bigger. I wonder why nobody have notice the big racing potential of the OVNI.

Just for you to realize how your boat sails incredible well, a Jeanneau 409 with performance rig and deep draft bulbed keel will only make about 5.8K at 45º with 7K wind and the Jeanneau 409 is one of the fastest pure cruising sailboat around.



OsmundL said:


> ...I would _never_ try to say an Ovni is a match for Xp-38, but have tried to show that your comparison to a "jeep" is out of order. There certainly are "jeeps" out there, but they are in yet another league.
> ....
> We could - but should not - exchange figures and estimates forever, but it is our usage and intentions that differ and cause these differences. I am consistently referring only to performance in relation to purpose.
> 
> I have a personal relationship with boats. There is no reason why anyone else should agree with this, I just put it out so you know where I come from:
> 
> ... if I had a high performance yacht, I would feel pain when filling a hundred liters of water, more pain when loading a rubber dinghy on deck, and I'd have diarrhea loading it down with diving equipment and a pushbike for the trips ashore. Every little bit that compromises its performance would give me bad vibes. At other times, I would be annoyed at all the gear I have to unload to be competitive in a regatta. If I had a racing boat it would be on the leading edge, and I'd keep it for that only.
> 
> This is why I say, and repeat, that for me there are racers (that I would spare the agony of carrying supplies) and there are cruisers. The middle road is not for me.
> ...


If the middle road between cruisers and racers are not for you, you should never consider the Xp38 because he is no racer he is a performance cruiser with a great cruiser interior, an interior that has a better quality that the one from the OVNI. You should be considering racing boats, like the Farr 40 or a Class 40. The Xp belongs to the X range of performance cruisers, for racers you should look at the Xr line. They have a good 41.

Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

OsmundL said:


> To me, that's just silly. Why go in-between? The differences are too marginal for my tastes.


I do understand that very well. On one side fun due to high tech and exciting speed are what I really like, on the other side, for long haul sailing, it might be necessary to live without but benefit from other features.
And - yes, compromises are boring. I prefer a consequent design. However I fear I need to accept more compromises than I really liked.

Anyway, let's change the subject.
Isn't this one a cool machine? Very much a racer...









"Ker 39"


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## PCP

*Atlantic 43*

I like so much the concept of a go anywhere strong boat that I have taken a lot of work looking for one, I mean one that besides those attributes had also the one that is difficult to have together with the others: Speed

And I have found it, a Dutch boat designed by Dick Zall, The Atlantic 43. It is a more than 6 old year design, but one that was so advanced for its time that I will gladly have one if I could pay the price (more than 500 000€).

The Atlantic 43 is an Aluminum boat with variable draft and a hull that is based on the Open 60 design. Bulb down it has around 3.00M draft, Bulb up 1.3M. Of course it can not be beached as the OVNI, but with 1.3M Draft he can go everywhere and it has a much much bigger sail potential.

Just to give you an idea regarding the difference in stability and sail power, the Ovni has all the ballast inside the boat, near the gravity center and a Ballast/displacement of 36%. The Atlantic has a better Ballast/displacement ratio : 39% and has its ballast not inside the boat, but down, several meters
under the boat center of gravity. The difference in stability will be huge, as the capacity to carry sail upwind as also the safety reserve stability and the AVS.













































































































modellen_atlantic_43_title | Atlantic 43 | Atlantic Yachts

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Ker 39*



myocean said:


> I...
> Isn't this one a cool machine? Very much a racer...
> "Ker 39"












Yes, beautiful machine. The K39 is a cruiser racer, but contrary to the Xp 38 it is much more of a racer than a cruiser.

Ker Design


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## PCP

*Ovni 395*

Well, that friendly discussion with Osmundl about the OVNI 395 performances can give the impression that I am saying that it is a bad boat or an uninteresting one. It is not the case and probably it was already time that we post here about an OVNI and from their line the 395 is one of the more interesting.

Aluminum centerboards are one of the French preferred options in what regards passagemaking boats and particularly the OVNI 435 was a sailing legend with many boats sold and an incredibly number of circumnavigations made.

These boats have changed the paradigm of centerboarders. The Dutch ones had almost 50% of ballast, the French ones have about 35% and that permits them to be much faster sailboats at the cost of a lower AVS (the 435 had 107) and a big inverted stability. Even so, the particularly good dynamic stability characteristics made them difficult boats to capsize (I don't know of any report of a capsized 435).

Regarding the many other French options regarding centerboarders, the OVNIS have an huge advantage: price

It is of no use for most, excellent boats like the Atlantic, if they cost so much that only very few have the money to buy one.

The OVNIS have democratized aluminum boats. Sure they have a somewhat rude look and some would not find them beautiful, but they are strong and well designed in what regards the thing for what they were made off.

You would not win races in one, but modern ones offer an almost equal performance as basic modern big production cruisers, except upwind where the performance is 5 to 10 degrees worse, as it would be on any non ballasted keel centerboarder.

As I have said, from the present line the OVNI 395 offers an interesting performance and qualities at a fair price, lower than any concurrence. He has already talked about the Allures 40, that I prefer, but it costs substantially more and the other options are even more expensive.

So, lets have a look at the OVNI 395:














































Fair enough Osmundl?

Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

I think it does not look "rude" - the Ovni looks quite good at least outside!
Ulf


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## gbaratta

WOW! Have to say this is truly one of the top in the many boats you posted. Looks very rugged, but its also using some very interesting and fresh technology. It look like a "go anywhere and be safe" machine.



PCP said:


> I like so much the concept of a go anywhere strong boat that I have taken a lot of work looking for one, I mean one that besides those attributes had also the one that is difficult to have together with the others: Speed
> 
> And I have found it, a Dutch boat designed by Dick Zall, The Atlantic 43. It is a more than 6 old year design, but one that was so advanced for its time that I will gladly have one if I could pay the price (more than 500 000€).
> 
> The Atlantic 43 is an Aluminum boat with variable draft and a hull that is based on the Open 60 design. Bulb down it has around 3.00M draft, Bulb up 1.3M. Of course it can not be beached as the OVNI, but with 1.3M Draft he can go everywhere and it has a much much bigger sail potential.
> 
> Just to give you an idea regarding the difference in stability and sail power, the Ovni has all the ballast inside the boat, near the gravity center and a Ballast/displacement of 36%. The Atlantic has a better Ballast/displacement ratio : 39% and has its ballast not inside the boat, but down, several meters
> under the boat center of gravity. The difference in stability will be huge, as the capacity to carry sail upwind as also the safety reserve stability and the AVS.
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> modellen_atlantic_43_title | Atlantic 43 | Atlantic Yachts
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## PCP

*Paulo's boats*



gbaratta said:


> WOW! Have to say this is truly one of the top in the many boats you posted. Looks very rugged, but its also using some very interesting and fresh technology. It look like a "go anywhere and be safe" machine.


Yes, thats about it, go anywhere, safe...and fast.

Yes, that is not by accident that 6 years ago when I thought that I could have the money to have the boat that I wanted I had taken that boat as a basis (not really that one but a very similar boat designed by the same architect) and have modified the interior to suit my tastes.

I had contacted Dick Zall, sent it the Drawings (made over his drawings with some minor hull alterations) and asked him if he was available to modify its designs accordingly, to accommodate my boat. I can design the interiors and hull shapes, but the structural inside of the boat is another matter and needed someone with an expertise on that area.

It was OK with him...but the crisis was arriving and all the project was suddenly very out of budget. It would have cost a bit less than an Atlantis 43.

Contrary to the Atlantic 43 it was a full pilot house boat. Take a look at some of the drawings:



















Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

Atlantic 43 seems is as interesting as a Cigale. And as a Cigale it is really far too expensive..

One more hint regarding the Pacer 376:
Here a must-see video about that boat - WOW!
TEAM OCEAN 60 NEWS

Ulf


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## PCP

Talking about boats that we can buy , it seems that the guys from Bavaria have heard us complaining about the weight and sail area of their new Bavaria 40.

The boat would be hopelessly outperformed by the new Jeanneau 409, so they have made a new version, the 40S. It will be lighter, it will have a bigger sail area and a traveler nearer the wheel.

I will bring more details from Dusseldorf.

Now, if they just change also that poor interior...we would have a really great boat

Sportliche Bavaria - YACHT: Test & Technik - News

Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

I still like to compare polars and just got data for the RM1200. So here our numbers again...

Over all not faster than an Elan 350. Do we have data from the Ovni?

(black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350 Green=Pogo 12.50 Orange=RM1200)

* 6K wind at 70º* = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2) (6.8) (5.7)

* 8K wind at 60º* = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9) (7.7) (6.7)

*12K wind at 70º* = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2) (8.91) (7.9)

*25K wind at 110º* = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8) (13.7) (10.1)

*25K wind at 150º* = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2) (15.5) (10.8).

Ulf


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## OsmundL

PCP said:


> However the biggest difference would be upwind, with the Xp making 30º to true wind
> Paulo


I am a little cautious about numbers for Xp-38 (and some others). Comparing the Polar Diagrams for one boat against real-world testing of another can give drastic misinterpretation. Polar diagrams are theoretical calculations from sail, hull and keel data; real-world tests are how people actually sail.

The Xp-38 has not been tested as far as I know; it is not to be launched until summer 2011, so instead of finished boat we have the polar charts. The manufacturer publishes a chart for Xp-38, and they do not show data down to 30º; it stops short by a few degrees and seems to show stalling from there onwards. They also specify flat water. It would be optimistic to state anything about its 30º performance when X--Yachts doesn't.

The only half comparable guides we have, then, are real-world tests of earlier X-Yachts. The X-34 performance cruiser is in the same league as Xp-38; beyond that I found tests of Xc-42 and Xc-45, both in the cruiser range.

X-Yachts quote this test of the X-34, so they must be pleased with it: It says that: in "wind .. force 3 to 4 (i.e. 7-17 knots)" &#8230; "*she moved with 6,5 knots and 40 degrees true wind angle* up the beat."

The test of the Xc-42 says "in strong winds" &#8230; *"close-hauled it maintained an angle of almost 40 degrees to the true wind and maintained speeds that were consistently above 7 knots."*

The test (Yachting World) of Xc-45 says, "Powering back up onto the wind, *she consistently stayed above 8 knots, between 40º-50º off the wind, tacking through 80º at over five knots."*

We have three real-world tests of X-Yachts all speaking of beating angles at 40º plus. Allowing for some improvements in the Xp-38 we can hope it is better, but it takes a leap of faith to believe that X-Yachts, experts at designing upwind performance, should suddenly invent a yacht going a full 10º higher.

Enough about this. My only point is/was that real-world conditions can be a great leveller.


----------



## PCP

*RM 1200 boat speed*



myocean said:


> I still like to compare polars and just got data for the RM1200. So here our numbers again...
> 
> Over all not faster than an Elan 350. Do we have data from the Ovni?
> 
> (black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350 Green=Pogo 12.50 Orange=RM1200)
> 
> * 6K wind at 70º* = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2) (6.8) (5.7)
> 
> * 8K wind at 60º* = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9) (7.7) (6.7)
> 
> *12K wind at 70º* = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2) (8.91) (7.9)
> 
> *25K wind at 110º* = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8) (13.7) (10.1)
> 
> *25K wind at 150º* = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2) (15.5) (10.8).
> 
> Ulf


Ulf,

I will try to find an OVNI 395 polar curve. It will be interesting to compare even if I can have a pretty good idea of the results

Regarding the RM comparison the results are what I would have expected: Regarding the Jeanneau 409 the RM is slightly slower upwind and slightly faster downwind. Anyway we are talking about the fastest 40ft pure cruising boats around and remember that the Jeanneau 409 is the performance version.

Each year new boats are faster than previous models. The Jeanneau is a brand new model, the RM 1200 is a 8 year old model that will be substituted by a new (and faster model) soon. The RM 1200 remains surprisingly modern even in what regards performance, taking into account its "age".

For the ones that are interested in a superior sailing performances they can mount a performance main sail, like the one on these photos:




























The owner of that boat reports that the boat can make about more 1K with light winds (4 to 9K) and refers these reference speeds (measured):

35 TWA with 11/12 TWS = 7.4K boat speed

90 TWA with 10.8 TWS = 8.4K boat speed

90 TWA with 5.0 TWS = 4.7 boat speed

Comparing a performance cruiser like the Elan 350 with the Jeanneau 409 or the RM 1200 it is not fair. It would be like comparing any of those two fast cruisers with a centerboarder with all its ballast inside the hull.

I only made that comparison because I was interested in the differences in speed. The feeling you will have on a performance cruiser-racer like the Elan or a First is completely different (that's why I have tested both type of boats ). You will have on a Jeanneau or a RM a much more forgiven boat, a less "nervous" boat with a less sensible wheel that can carry a bigger payload.

You just have to know what you want.

On a modern cruiser racer you will have a boat that is more affected by a sudden gust of wind, a more nervous boat with a more direct ruder, a boat that will accelerate much faster and that would be more fun to sail, and off course, considerably faster.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

OsmundL said:


> I am a little cautious about numbers for Xp-38 (and some others). Comparing the Polar Diagrams for one boat against real-world testing of another can give drastic misinterpretation. Polar diagrams are theoretical calculations from sail, hull and keel data; real-world tests are how people actually sail.


Polar speeds, made by the boat designer are quite accurate. They normally prove true with the real performance of the boat, if the sailing conditions are the same.



OsmundL said:


> The Xp-38 has not been tested as far as I know; it is not to be launched until summer 2011, so instead of finished boat we have the polar charts. The manufacturer publishes a chart for Xp-38, and they do not show data down to 30º; it stops short by a few degrees and seems to show stalling from there onwards. They also specify flat water. It would be optimistic to state anything about its 30º performance when X--Yachts doesn't.


On polar speeds, boat manufacturers only show speeds at angles that are normally used. The XP 38 starts at 32º and at 5K wind.

You can obtain a quite accurate reading if you prolong the curve, with the same shape till you reach 30º (it is really a very small gap). The Xp 38 with weak winds would not be efficient sailing at 30º (meaning you can have more way if you sail with a slightly bigger open and more speed), but with stronger winds it can sail efficiently with 30º of wind, specially if you need to (to pass a cape or an obstacle, for example).



OsmundL said:


> The X-34 performance cruiser is in the same league as Xp-38; beyond that I found tests of Xc-42 and Xc-45, both in the cruiser range.
> 
> X-Yachts quote this test of the X-34, so they must be pleased with it: It says that: in "wind .. force 3 to 4 (i.e. 7-17 knots)" &#8230; "*she moved with 6,5 knots and 40 degrees true wind angle* up the beat."
> 
> The test of the Xc-42 says "in strong winds" &#8230; *"close-hauled it maintained an angle of almost 40 degrees to the true wind and maintained speeds that were consistently above 7 knots."*
> 
> The test (Yachting World) of Xc-45 says, "Powering back up onto the wind, *she consistently stayed above 8 knots, between 40º-50º off the wind, tacking through 80º at over five knots."*
> 
> We have three real-world tests of X-Yachts all speaking of beating angles at 40º plus. Allowing for some improvements in the Xp-38 we can hope it is better, but it takes a leap of faith to believe that X-Yachts, experts at designing upwind performance, should suddenly invent a yacht going a full 10º higher.


I really don't understand your point. I never have said that the Xc 38 or the Xc 42 could point in the area of the 30º. They are completely different boats from the Xp 38. The Xp 38 is much faster and can point a lot higher. When I said that you should compare your boat with the Xc 38 (and not with the Xp 38) was because it would make some sense comparing it with the Xc-38 and none with the Xp 38.

Regarding the Xp 34 speed, the value that was measured by the boat testers is accordingly with its Polar speed. It was not said (on the boat test) that the boat could not do less than 40º but that at 40º was making 6.5K an excellent performance for a 34ft boat. If the boat could make (in 3 to 4 B) 6.5K, it could still made good speed with a lesser wind angle (certainly you now about that).



OsmundL said:


> ... Why not put some vital stats of Xp-38 alongside Ovni 395? *The similarities are striking*, although nuances are obvious. Luckily, *the two have identical LWL, making for sensible comparison*.
> 
> There is a set of formulae often used for estimating performance and so forth; you can find them at US Sailing:
> Sailboat Design and Stability
> 
> ....
> Real differences, not revealed in formulae, lie in sail handling gear, details in hull shape and more. I noted the claim that X-38 can "plane" - just for reference: so does Ovni, and it can do it with the keel up. Good fun!
> 
> Overall, the numbers resonate with gut feelings, that both are good boats *and in real-life usage* *not as dramatically different as one might assume*.


You are wrong about this and continue to insist on it. The Xp 38, in what regards sailing performance is a completely different boat from the OVNI 395 and not a comparable boat. We are comparing a boat that by modern standards is very fast with a boat that has an average sailing performance (a good one if we take in consideration that is a central boarder with all ballast inside the hull).

Even if we compare it with the X-38 the OVNI 395, that is a bigger boat, will be a slower boat, pointing considerably less to the wind ( at least 5º, possibly more). The only sailing position were the OVNI, if not very loaded, will not be significantly slower is downwind and even so I would have to look at both polars to be sure.

When the OVNI 395 was tested by the French magazine "Bateau" they have said very nice things about the boat and its improved sailing performance (in regard to older OVNI). On the conclusion they have rated its sailing performance upwind as 3 (average) and downwind as 4 (good).

That's in their opinion an excellent performance for a center board boat. They are, by design, not properly good going upwind. A good and fast cruiser like the Jeanneau 409 would have deserved at least 4 (good) on both counts and a top performance boat like the Xp-38 would be rated 5 (very good) also on both counts.

OsmundL, this is not personal but this thread is also about boat design and I want to provide here a fair perspective about each type of boat and that includes centerboarders.

If I can find an OVNI 395 boat polar we could join to the numbers that were posted by Myocean, the numbers from the OVNI and from some 40ft cruising racers, like the First 40 or Elan 410 and that will give us a fair perspective of the sailing performances of the three types of boats (same size).

That will contribute for a better comprehension of how boat design relates with performance.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*OVNI 395 boat speed*



myocean said:


> I still like to compare polars and just got data for the RM1200. So here our numbers again...
> 
> Over all not faster than an Elan 350. Do we have data from the Ovni?
> 
> Ulf


Sorry Ulf, I cannot have a polar speed (or a stability curve) of the OVNI 395. I have asked the manufacturer and the answer was: " I am sorry to inform that I do not have neither the polar speed curves nor the stab curves at my disposal but I assume that the designer would have them. He never remitted them to us."

I find that very odd, who is the boat builder that would not want to know the performance of a boat that a designer had made for him? About the stability curve is even worse. They have answered to the PBO magazine (that always prints the stability curves when they made the boat tests) that they don't provide stability curves for publication but that they can be seen *at the yard* by prospective purchasers.???? They have announced to PBO an AVS of 115º.

About speed and wind angle I had a look at three different boat magazines.

*The French magazine Bateau (the French are not great in precision):

At 45º with -10??K wind = 5K

At 45º with +10??k wind = 6K

At 90º with 12K wind = 6,8

The French magazine Voiles:

With a favorable tide??? over the ground:

At 50º with -20??K wind = 7K
At 20K wind the boat could do 45º to the wind and maintained 7K.

The English magazine PBO:

"While she might need patient or help of the engine until the breeze picks up, the 395 is no slouch when it does."

AT ???upwind with 16/18K wind = 6.5K

At 90º (on the beam) with 12k wind = 6k

The Norwegian Seil magazine:

Crossing angle = + 100º

At 90º with 14k wind = 7K*

It is not as good as a polar, but can give us an idea of the boat sailing potential.

We can compare those results with the ones from another cruiser the jeanneau 409 tested by the German magazine Yacht (good in precision):

At 42º with 10k wind = 6.4K
At 60º with 10k wind = 7.2K
At 90º With 10K wind = 7.5

And I am talking about a cruiser because these values are from a standard boat, not the one with the performance rig and better sails.

On that comparative speed list we can join another 40ft cruiser-racer, the First 40 (Indigo):

(black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350 Green=Pogo 12.50 Orange=RM1200)

* 6K wind at 70º* = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2) (6.8) (5.7) (6.3)

* 8K wind at 60º* = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9) (7.7) (6.7) (7.1)

*12K wind at 70º* = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2) (8.91) (7.9) (8.2)

*25K wind at 110º* = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8) (13.7) (10.1) (10.7)

*25K wind at 150º* = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2) (15.5) (10.8) (11.30).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elan 210*

Howwww!!! Take a look at this baby:














































That's the new Elan 210. This one makes me what to be young again

What a join to cruise/camping on that toy.

The Polar gives amazing speeds toping at 15K.

Like the big brothers it as all: Twin rudders, Chined hull, integrated engine (outboard), retractable bowsprit, a bulbed keel (a lifting one), a good stability curve and a cozy interior.

Congratulations to Rob Humphries, this is a great piece of design

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts


----------



## sailingdog

Why would you need twin rudders on a 21' boat???


----------



## myocean

sailingdog said:


> Why would you need twin rudders on a 21' boat???


Is there really a difference to a bigger boat? 
Small ones have shorter rudders and so the same limitations as a bigger ones, don't they?


----------



## PCP

sailingdog said:


> Why would you need twin rudders on a 21' boat???


Well, you don't need, but this is a performance boat and twin rudders are more effective: The wet area would be about the same (if it was a single one would have to be a deep one) and they are designed to have one vertical and the other out of water, when the boat is heeled. That vertical position gives it a much more effective performance with less drag. Downwind the two rudders help to increase directional stability.

Besides performance considerations, this is a boat with a retractable keel so it has to have also retractable rudders and it is easier to do that with two smaller rudders than with a big one

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 60*

Elan is not only making a new 21 ft boat (should be presented at Dusseldorf) but also a new 40ft, on the lines of the 350. His neighbor (both shipyards are in countries than once formed Yugoslavia) Salona is also working hard on a new 60ft and in a completely new 38. Both boats are being designed by Jason ker and that means modern fast boats

The 60ft is sleek but with huge port hulls that will provide the saloon with a nice view. Take a look at the winches positions. That means that is a boat designed for a short crew.

Some images from the 60ft:


----------



## PeterSailer

Do you know of any small boat builder that builds more traditional sailboat?
Sure those light and super fast boat looks like a blast to sail but my thing is more cruising, and for cruising I would be better off with a sailboat with a nice full keel.

Sorry if this question as all ready been asked before, I don't really feel like reading all of the 70 pages...


----------



## sailingdog

There are quite a few more traditional designs still being made. However, they're getting harder to find, as most manufacturers are going with larger and larger boats. Compac Yachts is one company that makes a fairly traditional small cruising sailboat.


----------



## PeterSailer

Thats too bad, traditional sailboat really are beautiful...


----------



## sailingdog

PeterSailer said:


> Thats too bad, traditional sailboat really are beautiful...


Pacific Seacraft is also still making some smaller ones.


----------



## PeterSailer

I'm looking for more tradinional hull shape like the contessa26, alberg30,douglas32. I don't know what but something strange attracts me to that kind of boats. I guess I really like their under water lines.


----------



## PCP

*Marieholm 33, Faurby 33, Nordborg 900, Halberg Rassy 31*



PeterSailer said:


> Do you know of any small boat builder that builds more traditional sailboat?
> Sure those light and super fast boat looks like a blast to sail but my thing is more cruising, and for cruising I would be better off with a sailboat with a nice full keel.
> 
> Sorry if this question as all ready been asked before, I don't really feel like reading all of the 70 pages...


Yes, it was asked before and the answer was:



PCP said:


> ...
> 
> Ben, regarding your question, the European ones that used to have full keels on the 70's and 80's, like Halberg Rassy or Malo, all moved up to some sort of fin keel, a more substantial one, if compared with faster cruising boats.
> 
> I can only remember an European brand that had proposed a new line of full keel cruisers. That was four years ago? and I never heard of them again. I don't know if they managed to make any boat, but I am quite sure they are out of business. They were nice looking boats, but heavy, slow and expensive. I Doubt that there is a market for that kind of boats.
> 
> There are some builders that still make old designs with a full keel, among them the 27 ft Vancouver (now 28ft). The bigger Vancouvers have already some sort of mix between a full keel and a Fin.
> 
> Vancouver 28
> 
> But the one I really like (I want one of those when I am really old ) is the Marieholm 33. It is still made and it is an incredible beautiful boat. I have been inside of one and I can tell you that has one wonderful interior, really cozy. One of the nicest I Have ever seen.
> 
> That's a boat that would make any sailor proud.
> 
> Skin
> 
> Take a look at the Video : M33 class
> 
> Marieholm | Zeiboot Friesland, motorboot Friesland, zeiljacht Friesland, motorjacht Friesland


And I would add that today a full keel on a new design would be an anachronism. Sure you can have more traditional cruisers, even classical ones and there are several of them in the market, but all with modern bulbed keels.

If you look at the thread you will find several cruisers that fit that criteria: the Morris, the Faurby and the Nordborg, all beautiful and all with a modern keel.

The only boats that are still made with full keel are old designs that have some very reduced (almost custom) production. There are not new designs with a full keel and by a good reason, they don't offer any advantage and have many disadvantages.

The Faurby has the 33, a lovely boat:
FAURBY 330

But I guess you would like more the Nordborg 900, or the 32 
Nordborg Baadebyggeri A/S - Die Yacht Nordborg 900 -

Halberg Rassy has a nice 31ft:
Hallberg-Rassy, Sweden

The real problem is that these kind of boats are expensive to made and for the price of one of these you can buy a 36ft (or bigger) from any of the big mass production boat companies. For a similar seaworthiness you will have a lot more space and more speed.

That's the real reason why you don't find many nice seaworthy small cruisers. Sailors prefer to spend their money in a bigger boat.

(take a look at pages 41, 42 and 43)

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Tofinou 12*

Since we are talking about Classic boats I would like to show a favorite of mine: The Tofinou. They are all beautiful but the new one is the 12 (40ft) and that's the one I will post.

This boat is for the ones that love to sail and want a fast boat and a beautiful boat that will never grew old. Forever beautiful, its a hard thing to get

This one will suit the lovers of beauty and fast sailing that want a boat for weekends or short holidays, a week or so. After all this is the program of a lot of sailors.

Take a look at pure beauty, at least for the eyes of a sailor





































































Latitude 46

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

For what she is meant for that is one lovely boat. Old Phillipe S must be mellowing in his old age. Paulo, do you remember that thing he designed for Beneteau in the late seventies or early eighties ?


----------



## slap

PCP said:


> Paulo


I like that they have a nice padded back support for the helm.


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## RXBOT

For my taste I would call her perfect. Would it be wrong to describe her as a very handsome boat?


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## PCP

tdw said:


> ..Old Phillipe S must be mellowing in his old age. Paulo, do you remember that thing he designed for Beneteau in the late seventies or early eighties ?


Have an idea. It was a strange thing But I have a big respect for the guy. Love lots of its designs and he lives well, with good taste. Do you know that he lives on Formentera and that his normal vehicle for going shopping or elsewhere is a hobie cat?

He designed one that seems that is going to be produced by hobie Europa. I am not sure if I like the functional aspect, but its certainly different. I am very curious to see one and reserve my opinion till that moment

http://www.hobie-cat.net/img/news/dp_hbystarck_gb.pdf

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

Paulo,
We worked with a Spanish furniture maker in the late eighties who was the first furniture maker to use Stark designs. I've always liked his designs though some of them would be very hard to actually live with. As you say, he seems to live well with good taste which is somewhat unusual these days. 
I knew that PS had a house in Barcelona but not Formentera. What a lovely island. Probably getting over developed now but when I went there a decade ago it was wonderful. Spanish style, elegent, fabulous bars and restaurants but still with a dash of counter culture. 
Cheers
Andrew

ps - I do like the look of that Hobie.


----------



## blt2ski

That E210 is a kewl looking boat for a trailer sailor! Looks like the motor goes thru the hull and belo ala a saildrive style, but pulls up with a flush bottom somehow? way kewl if it does that. 

Hoping to get onboard a J409 at the Seattle show this week. If not, I'll get by the dealer to take a peak. It will be interesting to see the new design look and feel vs the older more recent and as far back as 25 yrs like my Arcadia.

Had a good weekend skiing, ala on snow skiing vs on liquid water!

Marty


----------



## Kenif

I have to agree that E210 looks fantastic and a obvious competitor for the Benny 21.7.
Is the E210 trailerable?

I know in Oz the Benny with tlr is about $120K however you can buy used for $80K.
Wonder what the E210 comes in at.

We have a boat show in Melbourne early Feb and the Elan dealer is based at our yacht Club so I might just ask the question.

The problem with this thread is all of the great boats on the market.
I am committed to buying a boat and now I am trying to sort out which one.
I'm not sure this thread contributes or confuses!


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350 Boat of the year*

As probably you all know, the Elan 350 was ellected the European performance cruiser of the year.

It is interesting to look at the jury comments on the boat:

'Performance levels were incredibly high this year. This made our decision very difficult in some cases,' said YACHT editor-in-chief Jochen Rieker, summarizing the current results. 'We were also impressed with the level of innovation shown by the boat builders and by their readiness to adapt elements from the regatta scene, for example,' added the yachting expert.

*In fact several jury members voiced that the 350 is the production sailing yacht they would have chosen if they were buying their boat today.* Judges Toby Hodges and Matthew Sheahan from Yachting World's review also had much praise and not at all surprising when Hodges has extolled, '*I can't remember when I've had this much fun afloat before!* &#8230;&#8230; Talk about a boat coming alive on the water. .....

They found the 350 steering direct and responsive and the boat a pleasure to sail, *pushed hard the boat can do much more than what most people would dare to - just like a sports car. This boat is easy to handle, even under tough conditions*.

It was agreed that the Elan 350 is the right boat if you are looking for a boat that balances between good sailing characteristics and covers the practical considerations for cruising, stating that there are a number of manufacturers that claim to offer this, but few deliver.

*While the Dutch judge, Briek Waterkampioen, also writes he would like to own an Elan 350 - 'The boat combines the properties and what you need for cruising in a perfect way,* 'says Briek.

Interior design style does not appeal to everyone; light wood, dark floorboards and sharp corners provides a modern atmosphere, but also there are conservatives in the mix that miss Elan's old mahogany furniture, 'says Curt Gélinas from Båtnytt.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PeterSailer

> And I would add that today a full keel on a new design would be an anachronism. Sure you can have more traditional cruisers, even classical ones and there are several of them in the market, but all with modern bulbed keels.


I guess that i'm gonna have to stick with good old boats...


----------



## slap

About the Elan 350:

"and sharp corners provides a modern atmosphere,"

I know that my body has a way of finding any sharp corners on a boat. I also know that sharp corners do not wear well - they tend to chip or break. I suppose that it is alot cheaper to make the sharp corners than to have more rounded shapes, but it doesn't make a good safe interior.


----------



## myocean

PeterSailer said:


> I guess that i'm gonna have to stick with good old boats...


Can you explain why e.g. An Elan 350 ore one with a more stylish finish would not be your choice? What makes the old boats so appealing?
Ulf


----------



## slap

PeterSailer said:


> I guess that i'm gonna have to stick with good old boats...


There are still a few builders, such as Cape George Cutters and Hans Christian, but the market is small and will probably stay that way. Of course, you could always have a custom boat built.


----------



## sailingdog

The woodwork and gelcoat sure is pretty, but the design sucks... those lines for the self-tacking jib are going to wear the gelcoat there really quickly. They don't lead fair.


----------



## slap

Here is a link to the European yacht of the year article on Yachting World, with comments from the judges.

Elan 350 - Performance Cruiser

Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 - Family Cruiser

XC38 - Luxury Cruiser

Saffier 23 - Special Yacht

European Yachts of the Year 2010/11 | Yacht News | Yachting World


----------



## PeterSailer

> As probably you are going to find that "good old boat" on the used market, I think you will find this list interesting:
> 
> Atom Voyages | Voyages Aboard the Sailboat Atom -* Good Old Boats List - choosing a* small voyaging sailboat


I all ready have that list on my desk top 
I'm never gonna buy a cape george cutter, their simply too costy...It would be the same thing to have a Vancouver build, just too costy for me.



> Can you explain why e.g. An Elan 350 ore one with a more stylish finish would not be your choice? What makes the old boats so appealing?


Edit: I dont care if it's stylish or not, I want a practical sailboat.

I don't know... Some man really like wooden boat and can't imagine having a fiber glass one. Same thing for me, I like full keels with low beam, low freeboard,low center of gavtity, and a good V-hull shape.I just don't like those super beamy sailboats with flats under water hull that are pounding when you go up wind.

Now I know that that makes the boat slower, more tender, harder to reverse and they have less storage space, but for me thats not important. I want a boat that feel solid and that is made to take the sea, some thing heavy, not some thing that is made to be as light as possible.

I didn't post this to bash down modern sailboat, I know that they are the norm and that older design are the minority... I simply ask if there was any new old style sailboat being made.

I now that modern sailbat can be fun, I sailed a Gomen express 20 once ( modern for me  ) and it was a real blast. But for what I want to do, I want an older design.


----------



## slap

Petersailer -

Sailing is a slow, wet, expensive, time consuming activity that doesn't make any sense. So one's choice in boats does not have to make sense, either. It just has to make you happy.

 

Speaking of older classic designs, I understand that Valiant Yachts is no longer going to build new boats.


----------



## PCP

PeterSailer said:


> ...
> I don't know... Some man really like wooden boat and can't imagine having a fiber glass one. Same thing for me, I like full keels with low beam, *low freeboard,low center of gavtity*, and a good V-hull shape.I just don't like those super beamy sailboats with flats under water hull that are pounding when you go up wind.
> 
> Now I know that that makes the boat slower, more tender, harder to reverse and they have less storage space, but for me thats not important. I want a boat that feel solid and *that is made to take the sea*, some thing heavy, not some thing that is made to be as light as possible.
> 
> I didn't post this to bash down modern sailboat, I know that they are the norm and that older design are the minority... I simply ask if there was any new old style sailboat being made.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you say, with the exceptions that above are in bold.

The boat MyOcean was given you as an example, the Elan 350 has a low freeboard and a lower center of gravity than most full keelers.

The Elan 350 is made to take the sea. It will be one of the more popular boats on the most popular amateur solo and duo transat. I am almost sure the boat was designed taking into account the characteristics needed for that race (seaworthiness, easy to handle, fast).

I will gladly accept that you prefer classic shapes ( I have a soft spot for those also) but the assumption that an heavy boat with a full keel is the only way to have seaworthiness is wrong.

In what regards stability a heavy boat will a full keel will rely mostly in static stability while a boat like the Elan 350 will rely not also on the static stability but mostly on the dynamic stability. When a capsizing wave hits the full keel boat almost all the force will be translated in a rotating movement (the big keel will prevent the boat to slide sideways). When the wave hit the low inertia light boat with a narrow keel, the boat will dissipate most of the energy sliding sideways.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PeterSailer

It's sure that with that 7 feet draft the Elan have a lower center of gravity then most full keellers.
When I said that I wanted to have a boat that was made to take the sea, I didn't said that the modern sailboat aren't made to take the sea. Most of them are, but I think a few characteristic makes them more vulnerable then older design.
First the keel is not as secure, if you hit something at hight speed, you could loose your keel, I read a lot of books on ocean racing and it happens, but that was mostly on open 40,50 and 60... I don't know about the other boats like the beneteaus, jeanneaus and all that. And second, the twin rudders are not protected by the keel and they are more prone to damage.

It's really a personnal choice.

Feel free to correct me, you seem way more knowledgeable then me


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## PCP

PeterSailer said:


> It's sure that with that 7 feet draft the Elan have a lower center of gravity then most full keellers.
> When I said that I wanted to have a boat that was made to take the sea, I didn't said that the modern sailboat aren't made to take the sea. Most of them are, but I think a few characteristic makes them more vulnerable then older design.
> First the keel is not as secure, if you hit something at hight speed, you could loose your keel, I read a lot of books on ocean racing and it happens, but that was mostly on open 40,50 and 60... I don't know about the other boats like the beneteaus, jeanneaus and all that. And second, the twin rudders are not protected by the keel and they are more prone to damage.
> 
> It's really a personnal choice.
> 
> Feel free to correct me, you seem way more knowledgeable then me


You are a nice guy

Yes you are right a full keeler has a much better protection on the rudder and the keel will resist better to a shock.

But regarding losing the keel it would be a very improbable event. The biggest problem with Open 60's and their keels is related with the kind of speeds they sail. Most of the problems had been with whales. You hit one over 20k and it is like hitting a wall. The Elan 350, while a fast boat is far from that kind of performances.

Regarding the rudders, yes they are more exposed but a lot less than on a typical monohull (they are less deep and somewhat covered by the deep keel) and you have two rudders, even if you lose one you can sail slowly with one.

But you are right, if you wanna trade that very improbable causality for the speed and sailing fun, its up to you.

However you will have different kinds of boats with stronger fin keels and protected rudders that will offer you about the same protection to collision with a much better sailing performance. I am thinking, for example, at Malo, Halberg-Rassy or Najad.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Elan 350 boat of the year - movies*



slap said:


> Here is a link to the European yacht of the year article on Yachting World, with comments from the judges.
> 
> Elan 350 - Performance Cruiser
> 
> Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 - Family Cruiser
> 
> XC38 - Luxury Cruiser
> 
> Saffier 23 - Special Yacht
> 
> European Yachts of the Year 2010/11 | Yacht News | Yachting World


Thanks Slap. I had already posted that winning list on a dedicated thread, but that comments are very interesting . I will not resist to post them here.

*ELAN 350*

GBR - Yachting World - *British Jury:*

Light, direct and responsive on the helm, the 350 is an absolute pleasure to push hard. *Like many modern cars, she is capable of plenty more than most people will have the nerve to try. And that bodes well when it comes to more everyday performance where she is nimble, light to handle and easy to sail at a brisk pace.*
....
*this boat is a perfect match for those who are looking for a boat that strikes a balance between good performance and practical requirements of family sailing.* There are plenty of boats that have claimed this territory, but few that really deliver.

Below decks, despite her modest yet modern looks, she's attracted praise and criticism is equal measures. *For me she's spot on, a mixture of sparking performance and a simple practical layout below*.

GER - YACHT - *Germany Jury:*

*Happy marriage between a fully fitted-out cruiser and a fast beast when ist blowing.*

She needs wind and sail area to fly, but when she does she makes you want to go forever.

Great steering despite the twin rudders and twin wheels. Good cockpit layout. Super bow sprit solution. well built.

Downsides? Only one biggy: The base price is a bit misleading, fully spec'ed she will easily cost 150k or more. *But of all contemporary performance cruisers her size that is still a fair deal*.

ITA - Fare Vela, *Italian Jury*:

Maybe *one of the best and more complete example of new age fast cruisers*, she proved good speed and fun under sail with lots of very well thought solutions, either on deck or inside. And all this in a good looking and refined design, specially considering the hull shape.

*Easy to sail fast with a lot of fun, good space inside, a perfect fast cruiser for young and sportive families.*

NED - Waterkampioen, *Dutch Jury*:

a fantastic performance cruiser from Elan: the 350. *It combines perfectly the luxury you need for (family)cruising with great sailing abilities.*

*Easily planing downwind, fantastic upwind.* A boat that I - almost - would like to own myself.

FRA - Voile, *French Jury*:

A wide transom, with two rudders and a chine : it looks promising and it is !

*Rob humphreys did for sure a superb job* for the boat is very well balanced and the stern is always very smooth. It is not so frequent when having a double rudder.

*The boat goes fast and with ease, even in the lights winds. A very good cruiser racer from whatever point of vue.*

AUT - YachtRevue, *Austrian Jury*:

Exciting Design, exciting performance: *We like the smooth movement in the waves, the way the boat accelerates going downwind and the layout of the fittings in the Clubracing-Version.*

Under deck: There is more space as expected and some really nice details.

SWE - BatNytt, *Swedish Jury:*

Elan 350 Head-on-design with comfort:

With Elan 350 regatta sailors, solo racers and families alike get seldom seen performance.

*Chines, twin rudders, extreme beam aft, give unrivalled control when cruising and inspire adventurers to test limits.*

When testing the boat in 25 knots wind, we noted 14 knots on the speedo and no wipeouts. Expect even higher numbers when surfconditions are up. ...

Among the innovations we like the carbonsprit smartly hidden in the foredeck, well constructed and lowfriction steering system with GRP wheels resulting in the lightest grip experienced on any twin rudder boat so far.

Inside styling might divide fans, but light woodwork, dark floorboards and angular corners, create a without doubt a very modern atmosphere on board. ...

NOR - Seilas, *Norway Jury*:

Wide hull with a lot of stability is the new trend. A few yard have been pushing the ideas from the Open-classes to the mass marked, but non have made this in such a clever style as Elan.

Elan 350 looks good, works well, and will sett the benchmark for performance yachts for this class.

*It's fun to sail with double digits on the log, not only at the face of a wave, but for hours.*

SUI - Marina.ch, *Swiss Jury:*

*...She combines classy sailing-performance with the comfort-needs of a non-professional crew. *

A plus is the feeling at the helm - a weak point on many yachts with double-rudder configuration.

DEN - BådNyt, *Danish Jury*:

*Modern looks, lots of comfort both in terms of sailing abilities an down below*.

The wide transom and the twin rudder setup is the signature of the boats of the coming decade.

*It reaches planing speed with ease and stays there for long.*

The two wheels are both nice to look at and nice to control the boat with. It is a clear winner destined for succes.

Howww!!! I have been inside the boat, saw the very well designed good quality interior with lots of cruising potential, read a lot of tests, have talked with guys that had sailed the boat and all said wonders about it, but this unanimous praise of the boat is really fantastic.     

I want to try it

Look at this movie. I have already posted it but not on HD. It takes a while to load, but it's a great quality movie

Elan 350 boat test on Vimeo

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PeterSailor....if you old fashioned you could always have a look at Vancouver.

Vancouver

Northshore also make Fishers, though they are hardly low freeboard.

Fisher

I must say that one thing I do agree with you about is draft. 2 metre plus draft is too deep for my needs. Our current boat is 1.8 but in truth is closer to 2.0. Thats as deep as I want to go and yes I'll sacrifice performance if necessary.

Now me, I love that Elan350 but its not the boat for me. I cannot see the torpedo bulb keel being good for anything other than performance.

OTOH....I would drive away in a Sun Odyssey 409, that is very close to ideal for me even though its not a deck saloon. Lovely looking boat.

One of the things we all need to keep in mind is the use we will put the boat to. Ultimately I am likely to be rock hopping my way around Australia. I'm not likely to spend more than the odd day or so at sea, mainly day passages except when I need to cover some distance. Bass Strait for one , maybe offshore to Lord Howe, even some parts of the NSW coast are at least an overnight between ports....unless of course you are Wild Oats X1....

I'm also not someone who goes out for a few hours sailing all that often...or not as often as some. Even if only for a weekend I head out to a favourite anchorage, drop anchor and sit tight till I have to go home Sunday evenong or Monday morning. Ergo, I need more of a comfortable home than a sports car.

Paulo and I have had this discussion before.

But....reality is that even Vancouver make a great fuss about cut away forefoot to increase performance. I see it as simply progress. Sometimes design inovation takes a backward step but its mostly forward.


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## OsmundL

*...or good new boats...*



PeterSailer said:


> I guess that i'm gonna have to stick with good old boats...


&#8230; yes, PeterSailor, I know you wanted *small* full keelers; I just could not bring myself to show a photo of the smallest Nauticat 331, it is such an ugly box  So, here goes (my next post is more to the point):

Here is one long keeler that is still produced in series and in quite some numbers by the Finnish builder. *Nauticat 441* was last renewed in 2009, and they keep going with the smaller models 38 and 331, old designs originating in the 1960s; 1966 for the very first and smallest. It says something about the concept that it is one of the few cruising style 44 footers today made to Category B, i.e. not A for ocean sailing. Almost ironic, when one of the reasons some poeple seek long keelers is their reputed good behaviour on the ocean. This family has never been famous for outstanding sail performance, but do well as floating holiday homes. Their interiors are sumptuous and sure to impress a reluctant spouse.

Nauticat has had to live with the swing away from such shapes, and the models above cannot be said to be their mainstay today. Instead, newer lines with better performance, fin keels (and a much nicer design in my view) are the 321 through 6 models up to the large 515. To make the distinction and sound a bit more "modern", Nauticat now calls these "pilothouse yachts" and the others "motorsailors."

You can knock Nauticat all you wish, but it has a loyal following - some folk began with a 33 and are now on their 3rd or 4th Nauticat. It also holds ridiculously high second-hand values. It doesn't seem to go away - though one doesn't know how long their long keel line will last.

If you had to sum it up in a sentence, it would be "outstanding workmanship and finish", and "a pretty stiff price."

LOA: 14,79 m
LWL: 11,8 m
Beam: 3,75 m
Draft: 1,9 m
Displacement: 16.50 ton
Sails: 115 m_
Height above waterline: 17,5 m
Fresh water capacity: 620 l
Engine: 160 hp
Fuel capacity: 840 l
Boat design category: B


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## OsmundL

*Not so costly*



PeterSailer said:


> I all ready have that list on my desk top
> I'm never gonna buy a cape george cutter, their simply too costy...It would be the same thing to have a Vancouver build, just too costy for me.


If you want a "real" and *small* sailboat (25ft), there is always the *Nordic Folkboat*, some 4000 produced so far and still in manufacture. The design originated in 1939, in wood 

It has its own class and is frequently used for touring also - it is competent at sea. Perhaps "camping" describes it better than "cruising"? The good part? Price begins at $60,000. A 2007 model i currently for sale in UK for $US54,000. For the older ones you may pay more! I see a mahogany specimen from 1997 selling for $74,000.

A few copycats of the Folkboat also have long keels: the Marieholm, IF boats etc., but they are no longer made as far as I know. Excellent examples are found second-hand at low prices.

Remarkably many people love the Folkboat; they speak of it with love.

LOA 7,64 m
LWL 6,00 m
Bredde 2,20 m
Draft: 1,20 m
Displacement 1930 kg
Seilareal 24 m2
Main 17 m2
Jib 7 m2


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## OsmundL

*Any smaller?*

Could they come smaller?
A "Mini-Folkboat" named MF-Boat was launched only last year, by the son of the original Folkboat designer. Definitely a day sailor/fun boat, it is certainly true to tradition, in modern materials.

Seglamf

MF Båten

MF Matchrace 2010


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## sailingdog

A problem I see with a lot of the new designs is a certain emphasis on open interior layouts, which are great for socializing at the dock, but really lousy on passage in heavy weather...










Do you see any real handholds besides the ones at each end of the settee. If that's a full berth length, that's over six feet without handholds...not good.


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## PeterSailer

I would buy a contessa26 before a Folkboat, they're basically have the same lines but the contessa is a bit bigger. I have too agree with you that they are some very nice looking boats and they are good sea boats.I'm not sure but I think some folkboat have circumnavigated.The only draw back is the lack of self bailing cockpit... I'm looking for small boats but 25 is too small. My minimum lenth would be 26 ft and my maximum would be 35. I know thats pretty small for some of our members here on sailnet but thats the smallest size that I could get away with. And I think thats how evry body should choose their boat. Why would I buy a 45 footer if I can have a fully equip 32 ft sailboat for half the price of the 45ft?

I hope that those big windows on that Nauticat 441 are strong 

By the way, if any of you are interested in the folkboat, here is a good book that tells evrything about it. *Folkboat Story: From Cult to Classic-The Renaissance of a Legend* 
I read it my self and it's pretty good .


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## OsmundL

PeterSailer said:


> I would buy a contessa26 before a Folkboat....
> ...
> I hope that those big windows on that Nauticat 441 are strong


Yes, I was only responding to the theme of "do they make them any longer." As far as I know the *Contessa* ceased production in 1976-78 in Europe and 1990 in Canada. The *Folkboat* can still be bought new.

Oh yeah, those Nauti windows are strong - the whole boat is. That could be part if its problem - heavy and cumbersome in sea. Their line of pilothouse yachts is very nice, however - just too damned expensive.

_To *Sailingdog*_: My thinking exactly - I have discarded many yacht pretenders because of those stupid open saloons without handhelds. I think, however, the Nauticat photo is partly the deception of wide angle lenses. They feel quite closed-in when aboard.

And of course, as PeterSailer says, Folkboats have circumnavigated, so have Marieholm, and so have Nauticats, though I'm sure none of them were ever "A" rated. Whether you want to? A different question.


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## OsmundL

PeterSailer said:


> I'm looking for small boats but 25 is too small. My minimum lenth would be 26 ft and my maximum would be 35.


*PeterSailer*, you're looking at a perfect size range for my taste! It gives you lots of alternatives in good boats. A caveat: it is more like 26 ft in new boats and 35ft in old ones - the old shapes give so much less living space for the same length. I exaggerate only slightly. My dream boat was once a 33 footer, and I wonder if I might not try that again 

You mention cockpits, and I apologise for ranting about a hobby horse: *cockpit hatches*! Boats are often given a clean bill of health as long as the hatch is secure when closed, but I could wish for a great deal more inovation here. The issue is "keeping it closed." It ought to be not just possible but very _convenient_ to enter the cockpit and close the hatch, or you will encourage bad habits. No more of those slide-in perspex covers, please! People get lazy, they don't close hatches unless it is easy as pie, and they never anticipate being pooped.


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## sailingdog

If you're talking about the companionway, there is nothing wrong with dropboards, if the cockpit is properly designed and has a proper bridgedeck built in.

I had the problem of my crew leaving the bottom dropboard out for convenience, and since the cockpit of my boat originally had only a three inch-high companionway coaming, rather than a proper bridgedeck, a lot of water that entered the cockpit, ended up down below. At the beginning of the second season I had my boat I built and installed a proper bridgedeck which eliminated the bottom dropboard. Now it isn't an issue, even in pretty nasty conditions.



OsmundL said:


> ...You mention cockpits, and I apologise for ranting about a hobby horse: *cockpit hatches*! Boats are often given a clean bill of health as long as the hatch is secure when closed, but I could wish for a great deal more inovation here. The issue is "keeping it closed." It ought to be not just possible but very _convenient_ to enter the cockpit and close the hatch, or you will encourage bad habits. No more of those slide-in perspex covers, please! People get lazy, they don't close hatches unless it is easy as pie, and they never anticipate being pooped.


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## PeterSailer

The only probleme with drop board is when the companion way has a V shape, so the bord only have to be raised 1 inch in order to fall out of their slot, other then that, I think their pretty fail/fool proof and simple as hell.


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## sailingdog

PeterSailer said:


> The only probleme with drop board is when the companion way has a V shape, so the bord only have to be raised 1 inch in order to fall out of their slot, other then that, I think their pretty fail/fool proof and simple as hell.


Not true...depends on the design. The companionway on my boat is tapered, but the drop boards need to be raised at least four to six inches in order to come out. However, they need to be pulled out intentionally, since the gasket that prevents water intrusion creates too much friction for them to just come out. Also, they can be locked in place.


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## PeterSailer

Now thats an interesting sailboat...









He cross the Atlantic from Est to West in 1968 in he's 6' sailboat. You can read about he's story in he's book: *April Fool*

Now thats the same guy in 1993 with a 5'4'' sailboat.

























This time he crossed the Atlantic from New Foundland to England. You can read about he's voyage in he's book:*The Stormy Voyage of Father's Day*

And this guy, Tom McNally... He tried to cross the Atlantic Est to west, but didn't finish. The smallest sailboat to atempt to cross the Atlantic ocean yet.
He's sailboat was 3'11''.....


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## PeterSailer

> Not true...depends on the design. The companionway on my boat is tapered, but the drop boards need to be raised at least four to six inches in order to come out. However, they need to be pulled out intentionally, since the gasket that prevents water intrusion creates too much friction for them to just come out. Also, they can be locked in place.


I agree with you, it really does depend on the design. I hadn't thought about the gasket friction... But on some boat, there is no gasket, as a example on my father's Cal34, the board drop in a teak frame that is tapered, there is no gasket and the bords are made out of Fiber glass so they're not heavy at all.You only need to raise those about an inch and they come out. And the companion way allmost reach the cockpit sole so that could be a probleme.


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350*



tdw said:


> ....
> I must say that one thing I do agree with you about is draft. 2 metre plus draft is too deep for my needs. Our current boat is 1.8 but in truth is closer to 2.0. Thats as deep as I want to go and yes I'll sacrifice performance if necessary.
> 
> Now me, I love that Elan350 but its not the boat for me. I cannot see the torpedo bulb keel being good for anything other than performance.
> 
> OTOH....I would drive away in a Sun Odyssey 409, that is very close to ideal for me even though its not a deck saloon. Lovely looking boat.
> 
> One of the things we all need to keep in mind is the use we will put the boat to. Ultimately I am likely to be rock hopping my way around Australia. I'm not likely to spend more than the odd day or so at sea, mainly day passages except when I need to cover some distance. Bass Strait for one , maybe offshore to Lord Howe, even some parts of the NSW coast are at least an overnight between ports....unless of course you are Wild Oats X1....
> 
> I'm also not someone who goes out for a few hours sailing all that often...or not as often as some. Even if only for a weekend I head out to a favourite anchorage, drop anchor and sit tight till I have to go home Sunday evenong or Monday morning. Ergo, I need more of a comfortable home than a sports car.
> 
> Paulo and I have had this discussion before.
> 
> But....reality is that even Vancouver make a great fuss about cut away forefoot to increase performance. I see it as simply progress. Sometimes design inovation takes a backward step but its mostly forward.


Yes, different sailors have different needs, but has you can see by the unanimous opinion of the Jury the Elan 350 suits the needs of a certain kind of cruisers...not your kind, more my kind and that don´t mean a difference between coastal and offshore, cause the 350 is an offshore boat. More a difference in style. As one of the juries have said:

*"Easy to sail fast with a lot of fun, good space inside, a perfect fast cruiser for young and sportive families"*.



















well, I am not certainly young (unless you consider the spirit ) bur certainly I have a sportive family that don't like fat and slow boats and that likes to have fun while sailing. Well, probably not the case with my wife but he is clearly a minority and anyway she would prefer to catch the airplane and catch us at the cruising grounds and we would prefer her to catch the airplane and let us having fun while sailing. So this is a perfect compromise

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 Boat of the year - boat test*

Andrews,

I think the Jeanneau 409 is your kind of boat. It is no Deck sallon but the outside view from the saloon through double hull ports is really good. You don't fell like in a basement



















Even before I have read the jury comments I had already reached the conclusion (by reading some boat tests) that, even if I find the interior gorgeous, this was not my kind of boat, and I will try to tell you why.

So lets see what the jury said about this boat and let me join all opinions, and make a separation between positive and negative comments:

POSITIVE:

This Philippe Briand designed cruiser has many modern design features such as plumb ends, hull chines, an aft cockpit and twin wheels,* but it is her accommodation that says more about what really lies at the heart of her design.*

Her modest and elegantly fitted teak or oak interior is the first thing to grab your attention. While subtle in colour, the horizontal grain might not be a major feature, but it sets the scene for a boat that challenges the norm. ....

The message is clear, Jeanneau are heading back to their roots with a good looking, solidly built boat that has an eye on the future as well.

... Just in front of each of the wheels lies a Harken 50.2 self tailing winch onto which the mainsheet and genoa sheets are led ensuring the primary controls are close to hand for the helmsman, while also allowing the crew can operate them easily as well.
...At a starting price of €128,740 she is very good value for money for a well built boat that has looks that will last.

The 409 does not only have a very elegant appearance. She also features clever details on and below decks. The option of different headsails is a big plus. And the accomodation is both warm and roomy - something that doesn't always go together well. In fact, even though she is fairly priced she feels rather rich and very comfortable.

The more complete boat of the category, she looks more luxurious and refined than her class. She seems to be back to the Jeanneau best times, when they were realized in medium quality and far from cusins Beneteau.

+ very well designed
+ good deck solutions, many details well resolved
+ functional interior layouts
+ well done interior finishing, quality materials
+ good value for money

Those guys from Jeanneau are very clever : you can hardly beat them in term of value for money. You have lots and lots of space, the boat is rather good under sail and you feel you are on a special boat. Still, it is a mass production boat and the price is very good but you really enjoy living aboard and nothing reminds you of anything « low price ». Well done.

You feel the experience of the yard, when you are sailing the boat: good upwind performance and comfortable trim options, when you have choosen the electric sheetwinshes. Other fine features:
- Variable sailplan: especially the possibility to use three different foresails
- Ambiance under deck: The interior is made with brain and charm; well done woodwork with good working fittings; multifunctional navigation place and salon table.

I you want a boats to give good vibrations, Sun Odyssey 409 is a splendid example. It combines trendright chines, big beam aft with a coachroof ending in "shoulders". If EYOTY was a beautycontest, 409 would have won it too.
Besides having Philippe Briand onboard again, Jeannau has included some new neat features for relaxed sailing, like selftacking jib, low integrated jibtrack on the coachroof, sheets led under a deckcover to electric winches in the cockpit, This demonstrates fresh thinking.
....
Inside Sun Odyssey 409 collects even more points with inviting space, clever layout with one or two aftcabins and toilets, and a genious charttable doubling as bar.

Finishwise the 409 feels de luxe, with leatherhandles, leathercovered charttable, rounded fronts.

Under sail the boat balances a family´s needs, enough sailarea for good speed in light air and solid ruddergrip with lots of control in high winds. Even more familyplus is proper ballastratio for comfortable ride when wind picks up.

Overall Sun Odyssey 409 represents a new level on family cruising in design, sailing, inside volume, finish and value for money.

Better by design: Jeanneau have managed to make an affordable family cruiser witch looks luxurious, but not on the price tag. ...

Jeanneau has the skill to keep things simple and functional. The 409 feels like a bigger boat especially down below.
...And as opposed to the Xc where you get a lot of boat for a lot of money the Jeanneau gives just a lot of boat for the money.

NEGATIVE:

Where the layout struggles a little is in the friction of the sheet systems and in winches that are a bit underpowered fro the task.

A bit stiff on the helm, maybe. And with a bit too much friction in the rope arrangement that leads all aft.

- not fast or funny under sail, heavy at the helm.

You could argue that it feels a bit heavy and numb on the wheel but never the less I'm quite certain that Jeanneau targets their audience close to spot on.

No, I have no doubt that this is a great boat and that many sailors would not find the negative points that were refereed. Fact is that not all of the Juries refereed those negative points, but it is also true that several had found them.

Probably you would be the kind of sailor that would find boat's sailing performance perfect, but I know that I would find all the negative points that some testers have found and that those are more important for me than the outstanding boat interior.

I know that because I intentionally chartered last year a boat that has been considered (by the same testers) as a must in what regards sailing potential among cruiser boats, the Dufour 425 and I found it a very good cruising boat, but "numb" at the wheel and not particularly fast or exiting to sail. I don't want a boat like that...and I am sure, for the same reasons, that the Jeanneau 409 is not the boat for me, even if it will be the perfect boat for many sailors.

Neustart mit der Sun Odyssey 409 - YACHT: YACHT tv

Regards

Paulo


----------



## teddier1

Used Boats American Boat Listing ABLBoats

You want to see a weird boat check this out. But not too many comments... we just bought her.


----------



## sailortjk1

teddier1 said:


> Used Boats American Boat Listing ABLBoats
> 
> You want to see a weird boat check this out. But not too many comments... we just bought her.


See there, everybody thinks that Raised Saloons are a relatively new concept, but obviously its not. Cal was doing it back in the 70's.
Congratulations on your purchase.


----------



## PCP

sailortjk1 said:


> See there, everybody thinks that Raised Saloons are a relatively new concept, but obviously its not. Cal was doing it back in the 70's.
> Congratulations on your purchase.


Welcome to the thread Sailortjk1 .

It is quite the opposite. Today there are a lot less true raised Saloons (if we consider boats with less than 45ft) than there were in the 70's and 80's.

What is new is the performance of modern designed raised saloons, like the Southerly, new line of Nauticats, Nordship or Luffe, boats that have sailing performances that are similar to some cruiser racers from that era.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Guys, this is a long thread with lots of information about boats. To have that information readily available I am going to edit post one and join a list (that will be updated) with all the boats posted on this thread.

I will devide that boat list in the following categories:

*Small cruisers* (less than 35ft)

*Cruisers between 35ft and 50ft*

*Small performance cruisers* (less than 35ft)

*Performance cruisers* (between 35ft and 50ft)

*Sailing boats over 50ft

Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats

Racers*

*About the object of this thread* I will remember that is:

*Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market* (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out).

*Modern boat designs and modern one off*, if interesting.

This does not mean that I do not find that there are not out there many interesting boats out of production, or older, but this thread is already big with just the new ones

It would be interesting if someone opened a thread about them, but I am not the right member to do that because I don't know much about older boats.

Of course, exceptions will be accepted particularly the ones that relate to the boats or old boats of the members that participate on this thread.

Everybody is welcomed to post on this thread boats that fit the defined criteria to be discussed. But use a site like Photobucket to post the photos to have them available to all (members and no members, logged or not logged).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## slap

PCP said:


> It has a very nice interior. I don't like that big pilot house. It was an add on or it was originally in the boat design?
> 
> Congratulations, a new boat always deserve congratulations and that one looks really cozy.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


This is a standard Cal 2-46:


----------



## teddier1

The CAL had a complete re-fit in 1995 Pilot House was added along with an additional 3 ft to the stern. The boat is currently in transport from LA to Cleveland OH and should be here Monday. We will be taking her to Charleston SC to live on in 2012.


----------



## sailingdog

Add sections for multihulls, Small Cruisers, Cruisers between 35-50', and over 50'



PCP said:


> Guys, this is a long thread with lots of information about boats. To have that information readily available I am going to edit post one and join a list (that will be updated) with all the boats posted on this thread.
> 
> I will devide that boat list in the following categories:
> 
> *Small cruisers* (less than 35ft)
> 
> *Cruisers between 35ft and 50ft*
> 
> *Small performance cruisers* (less than 35ft)
> 
> *Performance cruisers* (between 35ft and 50ft)
> 
> *Sailing boats over 50ft
> 
> Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats
> 
> Racers*
> 
> *About the object of this thread* I will remember that is:
> 
> *Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market* (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out).
> 
> *Modern boat designs and modern one off*, if interesting.
> 
> This does not mean that I do not find that there are not out there many interesting boats out of production, or older, but this thread is already big with just the new ones
> 
> It would be interesting if someone opened a thread about them, but I am not the right member to do that because I don't know much about older boats.
> 
> Of course, exceptions will be accepted particularly the ones that relate to the boats or old boats of the members that participate on this thread.
> 
> Everybody is welcomed to post on this thread boats that fit the defined criteria to be discussed. But use a site like Photobucket to post the photos to have them available to all (members and no members, logged or not logged).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> I will devide that boat list in the following categories:


Good idea!
One more useful criteria would be Lifting Keel / Swing Keel Boats.
Ulf


----------



## PCP

sailingdog said:


> Add sections for multihulls, Small Cruisers, Cruisers between 35-50', and over 50'


I will add Multihulls. The others are covered. There will not be many boats over 50ft so I would join in that category all sailboats over 50ft with the exception of multihulls.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## sailingdog

Paulo-- I meant that you should have small cruising multihulls <35' and cruising multihulls 35-50' and large multihulls >50'.... not just a single multihull category.



PCP said:


> I will add Multihulls. The others are covered. There will not be many boats over 50ft so I would join in that category all sailboats over 50ft with the exception of multihulls.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Enjoy the show Paulo. I broke the E350, So409 boty news to the local dealer, same dealer sells Jeanneau and Elan. They knew nothing! LOL.
The seattle show is going on now, I just need to show up and have a ticket to get in, not sure I will have time with my work schedule. I would like to paruse the SO 409 that is here. The E350 will not show up on this side of the pond unless someone orders one.

Marty


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> It has a very nice interior. I don't like that big pilot house. It was an add on or it was originally in the boat design?
> 
> Congratulations, a new boat always deserves congratulations and that one looks really cozy.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Sure does Paulo.

Nice interior. That is really lovely isn't it ? Beautiful work.

I'm with Paulo on the add on deckhouse though. I've always had a bit of a soft spot for those old Cals but the addition does nothing for the looks and I'd hate to see how she would behave if anchored in a big wind.

Teddier, I hope she brings you much pleasure.


----------



## teddier1

When my wife found it on line I did not like it either, but it grows on you. The previous owner has what he calls a flopper stopped to keep her from rocking to much. He also install a bow thruster to make docking easier. Since we will be living on her the pilot house adds some space. We had to have the pilot house have to be cut off to meet height requirements for shipping and I agree she looks much better without it.


----------



## tdw

teddier1 said:


> When my wife found it on line I did not like it either, but it grows on you. The previous owner has what he calls a flopper stopped to keep her from rocking to much. He also install a bow thruster to make docking easier. Since we will be living on her the pilot house adds some space. We had to have the pilot house have to be cut off to meet height requirements for shipping and I agree she looks much better without it.


SC is pretty mild climate wise isn't it ?

In Sydney (Aus not Canada) we have a pretty mild climate, can get tropical hot in summer but cold in winter. Definitely not below freezing though. Minimum in winter probably around 10°C, not much less. If I were to own something like the Cal in mild temps I'd go for canvas on top so that you can if you wish open her up.


----------



## slap

PCP said:


> Thanks. The Elan 350 is selling so well in Europe that I bet next year you will have one at the boat show....or maybe not, it seems that American tastes in boats are quite different from Europeans. It would be interesting to see if the Elan 350 can make a success on both sides of the Atlantic.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I don't think that there were any Elans at the last couple of Annapolis boatshows. And I don't think Wauquiez has plans to bring the Opium 39 to the US, either. 

You europeans get all the good stuff.........


----------



## myocean

This is really not expensive. I wonder about how much loss in value one should expect. Do you think a boat which is more mainstream, e.g. a First would loose less? How you you loose in the first 3 years and how much later on?
Ulf


----------



## PCP

*Finn Flyer 42 movie*

Hey Guys let me show you the prettiest and sexiest boat on the Dusseldorf Boat show (just arrived from there): The Finnflyer 42

(put the video in HF)














































































The builder says about the boat :

This yacht is designed to *deliver superior sailing performance, without sacrificing any of the safety and comfort needed for cruising*. With a luxurious and light composite interior covered with a thin wooden veneer the yacht works perfectly for fast cruising and onboard living for the family. The equipment and fittings on deck are made for fun and safe sailing. The light and stiff yacht offers easy handling and very fast sailing.

Finn Flyer 42 | FinnFlyer

Yes I know, a lot of you guys are saying : *Bullsh**t!* Another racing yacht pretending to be a cruising boat .Yes, my wife thinks about the same thing about the boats that I really like...except that after carefully examining this one (Storage spaces, freezer capacity, separated bath cabin, comfort) she said that this was a nice one and ask me to buy it

I had to explain her that the boat that we *both* liked (by different reasons) was way out of our budget. Sad 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Beauty..... but that wallpaper????


----------



## Classic30

Faster said:


> Beauty..... but that wallpaper????


..and TWO TV sets??


----------



## RXBOT

Those companionway steps are not designed for heeling, guess she is just a dock queen.


----------



## Faster

Hartley18 said:


> ..and TWO TV sets??


Well, there I was giving them the BOtD that it was for promotional demos for the show....

Just back ourselves from a last minute dash to Seattle for the show there.. Good Jeanneau representation, other than the Ikea-ish finish below I liked the new SO39 in person.

Beneteau had a 34 on display - not a First series but a pretty nice boat, great profile without the rounded house and 'cat's eye' ports of her bigger sisters. One picky thing.. the hull is obviously molded in two halves - there was a prominently visible seam stem to stern down the centerline where the joined halves were not fully aligned or nicely faired. My other 'Bene *****' is they are making squared-off doorways and passages below, adding to the condo look.

A couple of IPs there.... talk about overpriced (apologies, Paulo, for even mentioning them in this thread!  )

A Tartan 43 - very nice indeed but close to a half a mil....

Nicest new boat there for me was the Norstar 40 - a reworked resurrection of the Perry designed Nordic 40 - US built; they also make a 44.

This is a huge show, but as usual sailboats were very under-represented.


----------



## blt2ski

> Yes I know, a lot of you guys are saying : *Bullsh**t!* Another racing yacht pretending to be a cruising boat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .Yes, my wife thinks about the same thing about the boats that I really like...except that after carefully examining this one (Storage spaces, freezer capacity, separated bath cabin, comfort) *he *said that this was a nice one and ask me to buy it


errrrr ummmmm..... uh Paulo........

Hope you had a typo, or equal, or we did not know the wife was a "HE"! well any who,,,,, could not resist.

Glad to know that boat was a hit with the missus, too bad it is too expensive. My wife would be happy with any of the 36-40' Jeanneaus. Still have not gotten aboard the SO409.....maybe next week at the dealer lot.

marty


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> Beauty..... but that wallpaper????


I have thought many times why wallpaper would not be used more in boats like the Pogo. That one does not look well in the photos but it gives the boat a modern look inside. I would have preferred a more traditional approach but my wife loved it and I have to say that it fits well.



Hartley18 said:


> ..and TWO TV sets??


Again, in my boat I will trade any TV by a good sound system, but they are not TV sets. They are multi-functional Hi-Def panels. They can work as a TV, but also has a computer screen or as permanent displays for your best photos or favorite paintings, or art movie shows. very trendy in modern decoration (they are fully encased on the panel). Again not my cup of tea. The boat is obviously owned by some rich guy with fancy tastes. Those items are not even on the option list.



RXBOT said:


> Those companionway steps are not designed for heeling, guess she is just a dock queen.


She is quite the opposite of a dock queen. The steps are alright, large, with the outer parts inclined for heeling, with anti-skidding material and they are surrounded by effective hand-grabs.

Carbon and other light strong (and expensive) materials are used everywhere and the boat weights only 6.8T and has a ballast of 2.7T, almost all on a bulb 2.5m down at the end of a telescopic keel (the draft can be reduced to 2.00).

This would give an incredible stiff (B/D 40%) powerful boat capable of carrying full sail with a lot of wind and off course a very, very fast boat that would knife upwind with a minimum of fuss (beam 3.72m).

A dock queen? I don't think so

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

PCP said:


> You are talking about the (Jeanneau) 39? The only 39 they have here is the 39 DS, or about the 439? the big brother of the 409.


Sorry, Paulo, I've got the model wrong.. this was the new non-DS model with the Juan K-ish hull chine aft.


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> I had to explain her that the boat that we *both* liked (by different reasons) was way out of our budget. Sad


Can't you give a number Paulo?  
Ulf


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> Can't you give a number Paulo?
> Ulf


Standard boat 270 000€

Telescopic keel 35 000€
Epoxy hull and deck 25 000€
Carbon mast and retractable Bowsprit 28 100€
You can count with more 40 000€ of extras (for cruising) and about 20 000€ for a decent set of sails.

With taxes that we have to pay (about 20% VAT) that boat would cost me over 500 000€. That's the price of excellency

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 41 boat test*



blt2ski said:


> ....
> 
> Glad to know that boat was a hit with the missus, too bad it is too expensive. ...
> marty


Marty,

After visiting that boat we had taken another look at the Salona 41 and the Salona looks great even after the Finn Flyer. The boats have the same length, same hull shape. The Salona weights more 400kg has less 300kg of ballast, more 12cm of Beam and more 7m2 of sail. Both boats use hi-tech vacuum infusion and can be made with epoxy resins. The Salona uses a Stainless steel interior frame to rigidify the boat and to absorb all the efforts of the keel and from the shrouds.

I like the superior B/D of the Finn Flyer so I will add 300kg to Salona ballast (the shipyard will do it for a reasonably price). I would have a 700kg more heavy boat (with more 7m2 of sail) but also a very stiff boat that can carry full sail with a lot of wind and also a boat with a high AVS and a small inverted stability. Sure, now the Finn Flyer would be probably slightly faster, but I am no racer and the Salona will be a more forgiven boat (and with more wind and heavy sea it will be a more powerful boat and even faster than the standard version).

Even with the extra weight the Salona would be a very, very fast boat. Remember that the First 40 will still weight more 500kg and will have less 14m2 of sail.

The Salona has a good cruising interior, the materials are good even if they are far from the absolute perfection of the FinnFlyer. Most important (for me) is that my wife likes the interior, the storage space and the galley. She loves the two freezers one of them with a deep freezer storage space. The head has also a curtain (fixed on the roof) that permits to isolate the shower area and she is satisfied with that. The boat does not have a port hull (and she wants one) but they say that they can make one.

And the better part is that the Salona costs about half the price of the FinnFlyer I don't know if I can stretch my budget to cover that, but it is a lot of boat for the money and one that I am sure would fit all my needs: That boat is a pleasure machine and it will sail fast, nicely and safely on the med or on deep ocean. It will be comfortable at the marina or at anchor and will provide the pleasure of owning a very beautiful boat with an almost classical shape, one that will resist the test of time.























































Yachting Life

http://www.salonayachts.nl/files/Nieuwsbrieven/Salona 41 key features.pdf

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Faster,

The Jeanneau you saw was the SO409. I did not get a chance to get there and take a look, but may run by there in the next few days and take a peak at the dealer. The dealer is on the wet shore of Lake union about 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile north of where the on water part of the show is. 

paulo, 

The salona is nice. Still no dealer in this part of the world, ie NA! I can find a Delphia, Elan and some of the other major builders from Europe, but a lot, no go!

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 40s*

Another boat that I have visited in Dusseldorf was the new Bavaria 40s.

The boat was developed with the guys from Match race Germany and is going to be Match raced in Germany (they have already made commands for a fleet).



















The good news is that the boat is much lighter (800kg) and the running rigging is a delight. All the steering system was modified and upgraded to have a really good feeling at the wheel. The traveler was moved backwards, to the cockpit. You can have a very enjoyable sailing boat with everything as it should to be, I mean rigging, right size of winches, top deck material at a very affordable price.

The bad news is that they have only one keel version with 2.35m and that's a lot for cruising. They have also opted for a non bulbed lead keel, for rating, and that seems ridiculous to me. The boat is not really adapted for cruising. I hope this is only the prototype for match racing and that a performance cruising version will appear quickly (with an anchor locker, for instance).

The boat seems very strong. It is stronger than the standard version with thicker cored halls and massif bottom, protected with kevlar on the more exposed regions. The keel is fixed to a massif structural grid, bigger than it used to be.

I had a talk with a friend I have on the Bavaria staff about the weight of their boats. Contrary to the French, that are making always lighter and lighter boats, Bavaria boats are today heavier than 6 years ago. I question him about that. He says that after some problems with the keels of the Match Bavaria 42 (a very light cruiser racer), they have stepped back and are making heavier and stronger boats. They seem strong to me


----------



## sailingdog

> I had a talk with a friend I have on the Bavaria staff about the weight of their boats. Contrary to the French, that are making always lighter and lighter boats, Bavaria boats are today heavier than 6 years ago. I question him about that. He says that after some problems with the keels of the Match Bavaria 42 (a very light cruiser racer), they have stepped back and are making heavier and stronger boats. They seem strong to me


Well, it is a good thing they're making their boats heavier, since they had killed a few people with their earlier boats. The 42 and the 38 had keel attachment issues, where the hull laminate wasn't strong enough to support the keel properly and keels fell off, resulting in some people dying.


----------



## PCP

sailingdog said:


> Well, it is a good thing they're making their boats heavier, since they had killed a few people with their earlier boats. The 42 and the 38 had keel attachment issues, where the hull laminate wasn't strong enough to support the keel properly and keels fell off, resulting in some people dying.


Some clarification and some questions.

About 9 years ago Bavaria add a new line of cruising racers to their line of cruising boats. That line, that lasted few years, was called Match. They were very light and fast boats.

I have no knowledge of any keel problem (ever) with the cruising line of Bavarias, and we are talking of many thousands of boats, many subjected to charter abuse that include some hard groundings.

I have no knowledge that resulted in "*some* people dying". I have knowledge of a *single incident* in Croatia where a Match 42 lost a keel that resulted in *one* sailor killed.

Several boats, 42 and 38 Match, after inspection showed signs of future problems on the area of the keel attachment and Bavaria gave instructions to dealers for reinforcements on the area and bigger backing plates. After those modifications I have no knowledge of further problems. Bavaria stopped production of the Match series a short time after that incident.

Perhaps you can enlighten me about those people that died and the boats that were involved. As I have said I know only about one boat incident and one dead.

When I was talking that Bavaria was making heavier and in their judgement, stronger boats, I was not talking about the Match series, but about the Cruising series, boats that never had problems with the keels, or to my knowledge, any structural problem. To give you an idea, the 2003 Bavaria 36 that I had owned weighted about 5.7T. The new Bavaria 36 weights about 7T. That's a huge difference, the materials are the same. They say that they are opting for stronger boats and I cannot see any other justification for that difference in weight.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 41 movie*

About the Salona 41, I found this nice video:






Put it on HD (720) and look at the details.

You are going to understand why I like so much this boat : For this (that you can see on the video) and for its huge sailing potential.

Normally the boats that offer this sailing potential and a really good interior cost a lot more


----------



## PCP

*Elan 210 movie*



blt2ski said:


> That E210 is a kewl looking boat for a trailer sailor! Looks like the motor goes thru the hull and belo ala a saildrive style, but pulls up with a flush bottom somehow? way kewl if it does that.
> ....
> Marty


Hey Marty, now I can answer to that.










I had a good look at the boat (Dusseldorf boat show) and I can tell you that the boat looks as amazing live as in the photos.

Yes it is a trailer boat. The rudders pop out and the keel goes up but the most outstanding is that engine set up. I saw how it works. The engine is fixed to the boat by a movable bar and just swings and goes in and out of that well in a smooth movement.

With that engine in you have all the advantages of an inboard engine. All controls on the outside, including reverse, like any inboard engine, you pull it up and all the drag is gone and it stays down, on a central position, adding its weight to the ballast. Nice and very pratical

I had also a look at the interior that is cozy and with lot's of storage and interesting solutions, for the size of the boat. A very interesting boat, no doubt.

The boat raised a lot of interest in Dusseldorf.

Here you have a good video. It is not in English, but the images say it all:











The price starts at 21 000€

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

I have not looked at the video yet....... but when the motor is pulled up, does a cover fill the hole where the outboard went down, so a "flat" bottom per say, or is the hole still there creating drag. A popular boat around here, granted since the late 50's a T-bird, has an outboard in a well, you can pull the outboard out of the water, but the well still drags. The pics of the E210 show potentially what I would say looks like an airplane landing gear, doors open, gear/motor goes down, gear/motor goes in compartment, doors close, smooth surface for best air/water flow! Really kewl if that is how it works!

Is Salona working on a new 35-37' design, as I am recalling, the 37 is 4-6 yrs old, it is still a good looking rig, and from the online pricing, attempting to convert Euros to US$, reasonable affordable. Not as well as a Jeanneau or bene mind you........but a good bang for the monetary unit if you will.

marty


----------



## PCP

*Elan 210 Polar speed and stability curve*



blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I have not looked at the video yet....... but when the motor is pulled up, does a cover fill the hole where the outboard went down, so a "flat" bottom per say, or is the hole still there creating drag. A popular boat around here, granted since the late 50's a T-bird, has an outboard in a well, you can pull the outboard out of the water, but the well still drags. The pics of the E210 show potentially what I would say looks like an airplane landing gear, doors open, gear/motor goes down, gear/motor goes in compartment, doors close, smooth surface for best air/water flow! Really kewl if that is how it works!
> 
> Is Salona working on a new 35-37' design, as I am recalling, the 37 is 4-6 yrs old, it is still a good looking rig, and from the online pricing, attempting to convert Euros to US$, reasonable affordable. Not as well as a Jeanneau or bene mind you........but a good bang for the monetary unit if you will.
> 
> marty


Marty,

Regarding the Elan 210, if you look at the video you are going to see that it is not an open well. It has a cover that is taken to put the engine in and that is in place when the engine is out. No drag at all. You have just to look at this polar to understand that there is no drag. This little thing just flies. I bet it will be a lot of fun to sail










And it has also an amazingly good stability curve for such a small boat with a high AVS and small inverted stability.










Salona has a nice new and fast Salona 34. We have talked already about it:

Salona 34 - Salona Yachts










Regarding the 38 it seems that the new one is going to be delayed. The 37 is selling well so they are going to modify only the interior and the cockpit offering it with a two wheel setup. Regarding the 37, they have sold several boats to the world's most famous sailing school, Le Glenans. This is quite amazing because obviously those guys know what is a good sailboat and only choose the best and I say amasing because Le Glenans is a *French* school and the French are very picky in what regards buying things that are not French...and they have some of the best sailing boats in the world

Les Glenans : a sailing school

"A wide range of boats designed for the purpose of training Boats at the Glénans are chosen and designed to make progress of trainees faster and easier : small sailing boats, stable and easy to handle and manoeuvre are used for cruise initiation, to become autonomous more quickly and discover the subtilities of helming. *Larger boats of 37 to 45 ft., comfortable and fast**, are devoted to ocean navigation.*
*Each year, new types of boats are added to the fleet, featuring up-to-date technical features*."



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> ......A popular boat around here, granted since the late 50's a T-bird, has an outboard in a well, you can pull the outboard out of the water, but the well still drags. .
> marty


Marty most Tbirds I've sailed on do put a filler plate in the outboard well. However if it's not well restrained they can be lost, as a expect a few were.

While cleverly done, I suspect the Elan 210's system will be quite difficult to use in any kind of seaway, and will not be a dry job. Once closed, though, the hull should be quite fair.

The Flying Tiger 10 has a neat setup under the bridge deck.. they incorporate 'bomb bay' doors that close the hull/well port as the O/B is lifted straight up. The bridge deck provides the clearance for the motor to be vertical at all times, and the prop is, like the Elan, under the hull getting rid of the problem with most transom mounted O/Bs.


----------



## myocean

Paulo, what do you know about the new 40 ft from Elan? Will it be as sportive as the 210 and 350? Is it planned for this year?
Ulf


----------



## PCP

*Elan 410 movie Polar speed stability curve*



myocean said:


> Paulo, what do you know about the new 40 ft from Elan? Will it be as sportive as the 210 and 350? Is it planned for this year?
> Ulf


At Dusseldoff I asked the guys from Elan:

They don't have drawings yet, it is for this year but only for the end of the year. they are probably pointing to the biggest boat saloons that are near the end of the year or at the beginning of the next year. the boat is going to have two rudders and two wheels and the hull shape will probably be between the one from the 450 and the one from the 350. It is going to be a fast boat upwind and a very fast boat downwind.

I don't know about you but I like a lot the 410 and they are going to offer them at very special prices. The boat is very fast on all points of sail has a very good interior is seaworthy and depending on the price can be a very good deal. I will expect that they lower the price about 40 000 euros (with discounts) and that would be fine for me.

The Elan 410 is a recent boat (2007?) with a modern hull and a modern interior. They are going to change the model because they want to capitalize on the huge success of the 350 and not because the boat is outdated but because sailors want two wheels and two rudders.






































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 44 / Dehler 45*

At Dusseldorf I have not been inside many boats, but one of the stands I visited was the one from the Dehler. I wanted to know if they had more information on the new 41. They have not, but I take the occasion to have a look at the "new" 45.

The new 45 is not really a new boat, is just the "old" 44 (2006) with a bourgeois remake.

First the good things:

The workmanship and finish of the boat is just as good (or better) than it used to be. Just impeccable. It seems that Hanse didn't change anything in what regards quality.

The 44 was a great boat and it is hard to bring down a great boat, so this is a very good sailing boat.

The bad things:

They just spoiled one of the most beautiful boats on the market. Yes they have made it less modern, cheaper and with a more consensual look (read conservator). The main innovation was the addition of an ugly locker/back sit that closes the transom. The thing is removable (I hope). Out the carbon mast, a less sharp rig and the mentioned interior remake, not so much on the basics but on the details.

As a 45ft the boat has a problem, that was not so evident when he was presented as a cruiser-racer, more now that is presented as a cruiser: The cockpit lockers of this boat are not deep and on the three cabin version the storage space is just not enough for extended cruising. For that you will need a two cabin version, and that for a 45ft boat it is not bright.

Now take a look at both boats and try to understand why I am pissed with the 45 (the 44 is not on the Dehler catalog anymore).

First the *Dehler 44*














































dehler.us

dehler.us

And now the *Dehler 45*














































Dehler Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1060*

First boat tests on the RM 1060:























































The two main French boat magazines tested the boat in their last edition.

They have said nice things?....Yes, but away from the enthusiasm of the Elan 350 boat tests. I know this is a different type of boat but the boat is lighter than the Elan, has the same type of hull and has more sail area. It should be a knock out, an incredible boat to sail.

Well I believe Voiles et Voiliers says it all when they say about the boat: "Un baroudeur bien élevé" meaning a well behaved adventurer.

Nothing on the boat tests talk about exciting sailing. It seems that the boat is fast but not as fast as the numbers (weight, sail area) would indicate.

One of the tests was a 100nm test and that normally is enough to have a clear idea of the boat, at least on the test sea and wind conditions: Downwind, with 20K wind, sometimes blowing 25, the boat with a big geenaker sailed under 10k, going sometimes over that speed surfing. the tiller was a bit heavy.

On the other magazine test they say that on 5 to 15K of wind, with small short waves, close to the wind the boat had difficulty in gaining speed after being slowed by the small short waves. They say the boat needs more sail area???

Normally French magazines are very enthusiastic about French boats, especially if they are very good. On the boat tests they have talked a lot about the boat's interior, about the rigging and little about sailing....Hummm, on boat magazines test's you have to read between the lines. It seems to me they were as disappointed with the sail performance as I was with the boat after reading their reports.

Now, to understand what I mean, the same magazine that said that the RM 1060 was a well behaved adventurer said, in the same edition, about the Pogo 12.50: "La voile en chantant". That's difficult to translate, but it will be something like: Sailing while singing of joy

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

That's disappointing to hear. I thought the 1060 would be a nice sailing boat. It's the type of boat that finds a nice middle ground between comfort and performance on layout and design. (aside from the € of course....) The 10.50 was a near perfect extended cruising design on accomodations and sea worthyness.

I'll need to try and rent the RM10.50 in Port Camargue if it is still for rent down there. Otherwise most of the RM's are on the Atlantic coast and that's not ideal for me travel wise.

Do you remember if the test boat was a single or bi-keel design? I'll check out the voile & voiliers test...

I still have this irrational urge for the Pogo 10.50... I guess it's the approach to the "roaring 40's" that does it...?? if you see what I mean.


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## PCP

bb74 said:


> That's disappointing to hear. I thought the 1060 would be a nice sailing boat. It's the type of boat that finds a nice middle ground between comfort and performance on layout and design. (aside from the € of course....) The 10.50 was a near perfect extended cruising design on accomodations and sea worthyness.
> 
> I'll need to try and rent the RM10.50 in Port Camargue if it is still for rent down there. Otherwise most of the RM's are on the Atlantic coast and that's not ideal for me travel wise.
> 
> Do you remember if the test boat was a single or bi-keel design? I'll check out the voile & voiliers test...
> 
> I still have this irrational urge for the Pogo 10.50... I guess it's the approach to the "roaring 40's" that does it...?? if you see what I mean.


I am quite sure that the RM 1060 is a faster boat than the RM 10.50 and also that is a great boat. What I am saying is that with that sail area and that weight it was to be expected that the performance was just incredible, comparable or faster than the Elan 350. It sames it is not the case, at least for what I have understood from these tests.

If you are going to try that one try also the Elan 350 (you can just book a boat test at the same time). I have been again inside one at the Dusseldorf boat show and the boat has really an amazing interior for its size. It is a good cruising interior compared with any cruiser with 35ft. To have such an interior in a true performance boat is outstanding.

Regards

Paulo


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## bb74

I'll have to wait until the Elan 350 is available for rental. I find that it's not until the 3rd day you see what works and doesn't. 3 hour daysails with the dealers gives part of the picture but not all of it. My plan is extended 8-12 week cruises + off season long weekends in the Med over the course of 4-5 years. Gibraltar to Jordan and back again (maybe ;-)) Hopefully a Transquadra on the back of that and then who knows what.

The Elan looks like a really nice boat. I've been in the J97 and A35 and sailed a J109, A31, etc and the 350 looks like a better fit, better built, more modern design which is saying something. In fact, it almost makes you feel like you shouldn't have those luxuries in a boat of that design.


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## myocean

It's disappointing to read this about the RM.
My problem with the ELANs is the draft and I already looked forward to the successor of RM 1200.
So for the moment the Pogo with lifting keel is the best? The problem there is the spartan interior.


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## PCP

bb74 said:


> I'll have to wait until the Elan 350 is available for rental. I find that it's not until the 3rd day you see what works and doesn't. 3 hour daysails with the dealers gives part of the picture but not all of it. ....


You are absolutely right. That's why I have charted last year a Dufour 425, just to find out that I don't want that type of boat. And I say that type of boat because that boat will not be substantially different from a Jeanneau 409 or a Hanse 430, at least in what is concerned with sailing. They are all very good cruising boats, fast boats, but I had to sail one for a considerable period of time to know that is not what I was looking for.

I also have no doubts that fast as it is, a RM 1060 is not the same kind of boat as an Elan 350. This one is in the same class as the Pogo 10,50 or the J109. All different but all giving a completely different feeling than the RM 1060.

Now, if you want to circumnavigate, take the RM1060. I believe that definition by the French magazine : "A good behaved adventurer" will be very useful for extensive offshore cruising. For racing the Transquadra I would pick the Elan 350 or the Pogo.

PS. the version tested was the twin keel version, the more common one.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

myocean said:


> It's disappointing to read this about the RM.
> My problem with the ELANs is the draft and I already looked forward to the successor of RM 1200.
> So for the moment the Pogo with lifting keel is the best? The problem there is the spartan interior.


The Elan has a 2.15 draft. Is this too much for your cruising grounds?

The RM1060 has 1.65 on the twin keel version, but already 1.95 on the fin keel version. It is possible that the somewhat weak performance close to the wind has to do with that short draft of the twin keel version. There are no miracles

The RM 1200 has 1.8 draft on the twin keel version but already 2.20 on the fin keel version.

Regards

Paulo


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## bb74

PCP said:


> You are absolutely right. That's why I have charted last year a Dufour 425, just to find out that I don't want that type of boat. And I say that type of boat because that boat will not be substantially different from a Jeanneau 409 or a Hanse 430, at least in what is concerned with sailing. They are all very good cruising boats, fast boats, but I had to sail one for a considerable period of time to know that is not what I was looking for.
> 
> I also have no doubts that fast as it is, a RM 1060 is not the same kind of boat as an Elan 350. This one is in the same class as the Pogo 10,50 or the J109. All different but all giving a completely different feeling than the RM 1060.
> 
> Now, if you want to circumnavigate, take the RM1060. I believe that definition by the French magazine : "A good behaved adventurer" will be very useful for extensive offshore cruising. For racing the Transquadra I would pick the Elan 350 or the Pogo.
> 
> PS. the version tested was the twin keel version, the more common one.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Unfortunately, the Med has fewer "racing type" boats for bareboat charter than on the Atlantic coast (at least in France). I know exactly what you mean about "that type of boat". I'm renting an Oceanis 37 in May and an Sun Odyssey 36i end August because in the sailing areas I want to go to, there aren't any "sexier" boats without having to add a full 1-2 days of sailing to get there and back which with the family isn't an option.

As for Dufour, I sailed 2 weeks on a 325... plain vanilla. Same on a SunOdyssey 35. Just no excitement factor. Step onto a Grande Suprise (like the A31) and have that one finger control on the tiller and it's a whole "nother" story.

As for the Pogo, I'm really hoping they adopt the 12.50 rigging set-up without the pataras on a future 10.50 model. JM Finot had one custom built with inbound winches, rotating mast and no pataras/basteque which was pretty cool. Also had an innovative foresail with lattes which sounds promising. Google Pogo 10.50, finot, mat aile and you should find the pdf.


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## PCP

bb74 said:


> Unfortunately, the Med has fewer "racing type" boats for bareboat charter than on the Atlantic coast (at least in France). I know exactly what you mean about "that type of boat". I'm renting an Oceanis 37 in May and an Sun Odyssey 36i end August because in the sailing areas I want to go to, there aren't any "sexier" boats without having to add a full 1-2 days of sailing to get there and back which with the family isn't an option.
> 
> As for Dufour, I sailed 2 weeks on a 325... plain vanilla. Same on a SunOdyssey 35. Just no excitement factor. Step onto a Grande Suprise (like the A31) and have that one finger control on the tiller and it's a whole "nother" story.
> 
> As for the Pogo, I'm really hoping they adopt the 12.50 rigging set-up without the pataras on a future 10.50 model. JM Finot had one custom built with inbound winches, rotating mast and no pataras/basteque which was pretty cool. Also had an innovative foresail with lattes which sounds promising. Google Pogo 10.50, finot, mat aile and you should find the pdf.


Yes, I had felt that difference very clearly when I have test sailed on two consecutive days a RM 1200 and an Opium 39. I know that the RM1200 is among the fastest cruisers and is a very good boat but both boats are in completely different worlds in what regards feeling, acceleration and pleasure.

Regarding the personal Finot Pogo, I know the boat. I have read a comparative test among that boat and a standard 10.50. Finot special version is much cooler and also faster but it would also cost a lot more to produce. I have doubts that it would be a smart move to have it produced. Probably the cost would be too high for the increased performance.

Regarding charter boats, perhaps you should consider Croatia. Great cruising grounds, cheap flights and some good performance cruisers to charter: The Elan line, the Salona line and the Dufour performance line, all new boats.

Take a look at scenery:

ACI 2010

Regards

Paulo


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## bb74

PCP said:


> Yes, I had felt that difference very clearly when I have test sailed on two consecutive days a RM 1200 and an Opium 39. I know that the RM1200 is among the fastest cruisers and is a very good boat but both boats are in completely different worlds in what regards feeling, acceleration and pleasure.
> 
> Regarding the personal Finot Pogo, I know the boat. I have read a comparative test among that boat and a standard 10.50. Finot special version is much cooler and also faster but it would also cost a lot more to produce. I have doubts that it would be a smart move to have it produced. Probably the cost would be too high for the increased performance.
> 
> Regarding charter boats, perhaps you should consider Croatia. Great cruising grounds, cheap flights and some good performance cruisers to charter: The Elan line, the Salona line and the Dufour performance line, all new boats.
> 
> Take a look at scenery:
> 
> ACI 2010
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


This spring it's St Tropez/Marseille area, then this summer it's Corsica and Sardaigne. Maybe next year!


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## PCP

*Salona 41 boat test*

I have read an interesting test sail about the Salona 41:










You all know that this boat is a favorite of mine. Since I have laid my eyes on it, on the last summer on the Salona shipyard, it seemed to me that it would be a great sailboat. After reading this test sail, it is even more favorite.

The test was published on the German magazine "Segel journal". They say about the boat (translated):

*"A really fast family boat:

A strong and easy to maneuverer performance cruiser with regatta potential at a good price....

...The boat can be sailed easily in a relax way by a family and with a crew of 4 or 5 is a contender for the first posts on a sail race...

...A modern, fast and beautiful boat with good finish at a good price."*

Well, what can I say. My type of boat

SEGEL JOURNAL - Startseite
SEGEL JOURNAL 05/10 Video
Home - Salona Yachts

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> 
> ....
> 
> Now, you know that I like the Pogo for what she is but for a 'cruising' circumnavigation I don't get it. Ok, so I am a much more laid back sailor than you or it seems MyOcean but out at sea in anything other than really calm conditions 15 knots and up is simply going to be bloody uncomfortable and a hell of a lot of work. I appreciate the argument about getting there as fast as possible but as long as I have a boat capable of topping ten or so knots in the right conditions then I will be a happy chappy indeed. If I want a burst of 15knts then I'll come sailing with you guys.
> ...


Andrews,

this is old, but I was just making the listings of boats to post on the 1th page and I found this post of yours that I have never replied and perhaps that the reply can clarify some of this boat characteristics.

Upwind the Pogo will not make a big difference for any modern performance cruiser but will make a considerable difference downwind. A circumnavigation, if made by the right side and on the right season is very much downwind sailing and many times with 25/30K winds.

On a typical old cruiser with 40ft if you have 30K wind on the back you go a bit over hull speed and stop there. Probably the boat will go at 8/9 K, deep buried in the water and making a big bow wave. You will have over the deck 23 or 24K wind. If there are waves the boat tend to be a bit instable and rolls a bit from one side to the other and if those rolls came in synchronism with the wave, they can be increased to the point of being dangerous. You have to be at the wheel to prevent that.

On a boat like the Pogo 12.50, the boat starts planing at 12K. It means that at 12K it is already over hull speed. With 30K wind the boat is very light over the water and doing 17K or a bit more. At speed the boat is very stable (speed also increases stability). Its large transom prevents the rolling motion you find on the older boat and you can leave it on autopilot even when you go to sleep. As a bonus you have over the deck a lot less wind (probably 15K or so).

That's not only about speed, but also about comfort and safety and that's why for an experienced sailor makes sense to circumnavigate (or make passages) on a boat like the Pogo. After all it was for that purpose that kind of hull was designed

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Hanse 445*

Very nice images of the new Hanse 445...at least while they are filming the boat from the outside

Getestet: Die neue Hanse 445 - YACHT: YACHT tv

Jesus what is wrong with the Germans? Can't they hire a French or an Italian to do their interior designs?

The boat looks fast and clean...I mean in what regards outside looks and sailing. Well, I suppose some guys like that interior...I would prefer not to comment, I will just say that I like the hull ports .


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## tdw

Paulo,

Thanks for the catch up. 

I had a quick look but didn't see anything in this thread...have we discussed the Hanse 400 ?


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## tdw

I'm going to be on one today. I'll let you know what i think.

A


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## myocean

PCP said:


> On a boat like the Pogo 12.50, the boat starts planing at 12K. It means that at 12K it is already over hull speed. With 30K wind the boat is very light over the water and doing 17K or a bit more. At speed the boat is very stable (speed also increases stability). Its large transom prevents the rolling motion you find on the older boat and you can leave it on autopilot even when you go to sleep. As a bonus you have over the deck a lot less wind (probably 15K or so).


Hi Paulo!

If this is really so great (and you know I am a fan of the Pogos), why are there not more such boats on the market? Some other boat builders show that even lightweight boats can have a reasonable (better) comfort inside. Combining these features should be great.
So is Pogo Structures just the first of some more (and better) to come? Are the Pogo's ahead of time?

Or do people just not like such a performance?
Or are there more relevant disadvantages like noisiness, bumpy upwind rides, ...

I remember a review about the First 30 where the author wrote he was very astonished about the soft and comfortable upwind sailing which he said must be due to a very smart, improved hull design for this kind of (flat, wide transom) boat. So are there some interesting design improvements which can be expected for the real fast cruising boats in future? 
Ulf


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## PCP

myocean said:


> Hi Paulo!
> 
> If this is really so great (and you know I am a fan of the Pogos), why are there not more such boats on the market? Some other boat builders show that even lightweight boats can have a reasonable (better) comfort inside. Combining these features should be great.
> So is Pogo Structures just the first of some more (and better) to come? Are the Pogo's ahead of time?
> 
> Or do people just not like such a performance?
> Or are there more relevant disadvantages like noisiness, bumpy upwind rides, ...


Hi Ulf!

Yes , Pogo were ahead of its time, but that was 10 years ago. Know there are many cruising boats that have followed what has been learned on racing oceanic boats with short crew (or solo) from the past 20 Years.

The reason why you don't see them on mass production boats (Elan seems to be an exception) is because those boats are more expensive to build and because those boats are designed for Ocean downwind sailing and that is just not the type of sailing most sailors do. Going upwind a Pogo will not be faster and would be more uncomfortable. If the sea is rough, the Pogo will be slower than a good cruising racer. I have already refereed the case of a racing Pogo (class 40) that on the two last editions of the "Sydney-Hobart" (mostly am upwind race was slower than an almost standard First 40 (cruiser racer).

Also boats like the Pogo, to really enjoy their sailing potential, need to carry not too much load and that implies a kind of a spartan way of cruising ( a bit like a guy that prefers to cruise on a motorcycle than on a car). It will be a lot more fun but it is just not for most of the people.

There are however several cruising boats that are made around the Pogo idea of cruising. We have already talked about some and we will talk of more. There are one that is not so radical (better interior), it's fast and it is not as expensive as the others. Anyway you would have to pay for such a boat at leat more 50 000 euros than for a comparable Elan or Salona.



myocean said:


> I remember a review about the First 30 where the author wrote he was very astonished about the soft and comfortable upwind sailing which he said must be due to a very smart, improved hull design for this kind of (flat, wide transom) boat. So are there some interesting design improvements which can be expected for the real fast cruising boats in future?
> Ulf


Yes, that's true and those improvements are already utilized on cruising boats, specially on performance cruising boats. That has to do mainly with the design of the bow and fine entries. Not so much on what we call pure cruising boats (Bavarias, Jeanneau and Beneteau) because their costumers will trade gladly that more comfortable (and faster) ride for a bigger front cabin.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Hanse 400*



tdw said:


> I'm going to be on one today. I'll let you know what i think.
> 
> A


Andrews,

We will be waiting for your impressions. I bet that you are going to like the ride. They have a good hull, a good Ballast/Displacement ratio, they are relatively fast and if made of epoxy they are stronger than similar boats and have a kind of Ikea interior, that is what I really dislike in that boat.

The sails and the rigging can vary a lot from boat to boat. They come with pretty basic sails and rigging (the winches are very small) are not expensive in the basic version but they have no comprehensive performance kit to upgrade the boat. Yes, they will upgrade the boat for you, bigger winches, traveler on the cockpit, good sails and so on, but at the end it is not an inexpensive boat anymore. I hate the gel-coat finish (very bright).

This is a boat that is near the end of its carrier (it is an old model that has been updated once) even if the hull is still a good hull. This year they presented a new bathing platform and a closed transom similar to the one from Dufour 40e.

As a sailing boat, if you can live with the interior that is quite practical and well laid, it can be a very good sailing boat, depending of the options of the boat. It is a boat that you can find used at good price and that is mainly because the difference of price between the one Hanse advertise and the real price of most boats, with all the extras id huge.

If you are thinking in buying a new one it can be a good option providing they offer you a 15% discount or more, since it is a boat that will be replaced soon. However, even so I would also check the new jeanneau 409 and the Dufour 405, both also good sailing boats and with a better interior.









































































Regards

Paulo


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## bjung

I looked at the Hanse boats at Annapolis this year. Well laid out, nice german craftsmanship. I mentioned the potential knee jerk 24" low lifelines and the lack of decent bulwarks and properly space handholds, but the salesman informed me:"These boats are designed for the North Sea, one of the most treacherous bodies of water in the world, so it should be good enough for the US!" Well, next stop HR, and let's see what the Swedes consider appropriate for offshore work.
I guess everyone has differrent uses and expectations.


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## PCP

bjung said:


> I looked at the Hanse boats at Annapolis this year. Well laid out, nice german craftsmanship. I mentioned the potential knee jerk 24" low lifelines and the lack of decent bulwarks and properly space handholds, but the salesman informed me:"These boats are designed for the North Sea, one of the most treacherous bodies of water in the world, so it should be good enough for the US!" Well, next stop HR, and let's see what the Swedes consider appropriate for offshore work.
> I guess everyone has differrent uses and expectations.


Yes, the Hanse 400 can be prepared for offshore us. In my opinion it has the necessary basic requirements, but as most of the people use those boats for coastal cruising the boat comes not equipped for that use (it would be more expensive). Any knowledgeable dealer can equip the boat for that purpose.

Bulwarks offer you a deceptive sensation of safety. If the boat is caught by a breaker the added area will offer more surface to the wave and instead of a waving passing over the boat you will have a boat pushed by a wave with an increasing capsize risk.

Most of the Germans use their boats on the Baltic that is a semi protected sea and has nothing to do with the North Sea.

Regards

Paulo


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## bjung

PCP said:


> Bulwarks offer you a deceptive sensation of safety. If the boat is caught by a breaker the added area will offer more surface to the wave and instead of a waving passing over the boat you will have a boat pushed by a wave with an increasing capsize risk.


Paolo,
I am sure, you will agree, that the type of capsize risk you are describing has nothing to do with bulwarks, but total freeboard. So, correct, adding higher bulwarks to the already high freeboard on a Hanse would have negative consequences, but most cruising boat designers will work down from a desired freeboard.
Bernd


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## PCP

bjung said:


> Paolo,
> I am sure, you will agree, that the type of capsize risk you are describing has nothing to do with bulwarks, but total freeboard. So, correct, *adding higher bulwarks to the already high freeboard on a Hanse would have negative consequences*, but most cruising boat designers will work down from a desired freeboard.
> Bernd


Bernd,

I agree, that was what I wanted to mean.

All boats are compromises, Hanse has the typical high freeboard of a cruiser boat ( I guess that even so not so higher than a Beneteau, for instance).

They have that high freeboard to maximize interior space and because clients of that kind of boat will trade that higher freeboard for that extra hight. If they add bulwarks the frontal surface of the boat would be even bigger.

Regarding design and freeboard, that's one of the reasons I prefer what is normally called cruiser racers. The clients of that type of boats (me included) will gladly accept a lesser higher interior for a smaller freeboard.

Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

There seems to be a Pogo 12.50 report in the February issue of "Voiles et Voiliers". It seems not to be available online but has anybody read it?


----------



## chall03

tdw said:


> I'm going to be on one today. I'll let you know what i think.
> 
> A


I actually don't mind the Hanse 400 at all.....

How did you go TD??


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## PCP

*Pogo 12.50 boat speeds test*



myocean said:


> There seems to be a Pogo 12.50 report in the February issue of "Voiles et Voiliers". It seems not to be available online but has anybody read it?


Andrews seems to have liked that Hanse so much that he is still sailing it

About that test: They have loved sailing the boat, so much that the tester didn't want to let go the tiller and passed most of the night steering (20K wind)

Some measured speeds:

8KW at 45ºTW = 6.8K

14KW at 45ºTW = 8.0K

20K at 90ºTW (with ass. spy) = 9.7K

15K at 120ºTW (with ass. spy) = 10.4K

20K at 120º (with ass. spy) = 12.5K

They have made on that trip a 10K average speed on 170nm, going most of the time downwind.

He says only nice things about the boat (safety while sailing, big pleasure, good cruising interior) but asks himself the central question: Would that boat have the space for having all the stuff he likes to have while cruising? No... but that is not a real question because this boat should never sailed with any considerable charge.

A motorcycle, I am telling you and not with a negative sense. I have cruised the twisting roads of Europe with a Triumph 900. Me and my wife, on voyages that sometimes took a full month.

I had loved it, but you have to have the spirit for that and live in a very spartan way. Today I cruise on a small roadster that can carry about the double of what the motorcycle could carry. Some would say that we are still crazy (most of my wife's friends) but I can tell you that I have the same pleasure in a slightly less spartan way.

But that "slightly", makes a lot of difference

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Paulo,

The 400 is actually in its mk III form although all versions use the same hull and very similar interior layouts. The revamp from MkII to MkIII was more thorough than MkI to MkII. The boat we looked at was a MkII.

In general.....

To be honest we came to the 400 by default. The Wombet and I had decided that for various reasons we needed to look at boats that were relatively easy to handle.

As I've talked about previously the Dehler DS41 is , of the reasonably priced production boats, pretty close to my ultimate but unfortunately only a couple of them ever came to Australia, indeed only 100 or so were ever built, the majority of which are in Europe. I believe from talking with the US distributor of Dehler that less than ten ever made it across the Atlantic. Other Dehlers are more numerous but not in Australia and they are seriously expensive down here. At this moment only one Dehler is for sale in Australia and she has a long racing and charter history so she may well be a bit tired.

So......looking around I found a Hanse 411 for sale in Queensland. Now this is an older boat (the forerunner to the 400) and the basic design appealed to us. The negative was a shoal keel with 5'1" (1.5m) draft. Standard keel on the 411 was 6'5" (2.0m). 2m is as deep as I'd go in a cruising boat but 1.5m seems a bit shallow to me.

Which led me to look at the more common H400. Including the 411 there are as many 40' Hanses in Australia as there were Dehler DS41s built world wide.

For me the H400 is something of a curate's egg....good in parts. In the two cabin, extended galley, single head MkI version she is I think for us a good boat. Losing the third cabin gives you a massive cockpit locker that is also accessible from the galley. Partitioned and with storage bins or baskets the f'ward section would make a great pantry with the aft section still having plenty of room for sails and other cruising essentials. Second cabin is to port and when fitted with lee clothes gives, along with the main settee, two decent sea berths plus space under the cockpit for life raft stowage.

Head, quite acceptably sized for two people, is also aft. Fitted with a folding shower screen that is obviously someone's idea of a joke. The shower space would be bloody useless if you close the screen and while I am tallish I am not a large frame.

F'ward cabin has a good sized berth with room to sleep feet aft. This is a must have feature for us. We both like sleeping up front but I have had it with the cramped nature of most v-berths.

We like our food, we like to cook. In the H400 MkI twin the galley is a beauty. Plenty of space for two people is need be, twin sinks on centre line, fridge that is both top and front loading, space for a three burner range. The three cabin and all the MkIIs make do with a far less acceptable galley and that's a deal killer for us.

I think its also fair to emphasise that the H400 is not a truly acceptable cruising alternative for most people particularly those with a family or who intend carrying more than two people for any length of time nor for those thiking of long ocean voyages. They simply do not have the cargo carrying capacity of heavier displacement boats. Our cruising ideal is based on mainly coastal and/or short ocean hops where we would spend a few weeks out of the loop followed by a week in port. The 400 is capable of handling this where her crew is just two. Beyond that you would simply run out of fresh/refigerated food and be relying on tinned and processed plus whatever the sea gives up.

I'd note that from the moment you go below until you are in the f'ward cabin you are never out of reach of a handhold. Giving the voluminous nature of the main cabin you would need them in any sort of seway.

Up top the 400 is pretty impressive though in standard form woefully lacking in cruising niceties. No dodger, no bimini, no cockpit covers. Mk II is completely open at the stern, has huge single wheel and nowhere for the helmsman to comfortably sit. The MkI had aft end of cockpit enclosed with an opening gate/helmsman seat, the MIII a fold up boarding platform with twin wheels. For cruising the MkII version would be awful. General cockpit comfort however is excellent. When fitted with a dodger and cushions one could hunker down in that cockpit in comfort and splendour. With drop sides and a full cockpit awning it also becomes a pilot house.

Which brings me to windage. One friend has commented to me re the 400's freeboard. At first I disagreed with him but it is true to say that she has pretty high freeboard, a trait shared with quite a few of her modern brethren it would appear. Will she dance the fandango at anchor ? Quite possibly. Keeping the anchor away from that stright stem might be challenging as well.

Beyond the cockpit comfort on deck is good. Paulo has noted that winches seem somewhat undersized and I'd tend to agree with him though self tacking headsail does away with the need for large sheet winches unless you intend to carry a non self tacking genoa. Personally I would probably add a couple of extra larger sheet winches for which mounting points are provided. All other controls are back to cockpit and sensibly laid out. Sailing this boat single handed would be a doddle.

F'ward of the cockpit, cabin top grab rails are shorter than I'd like but from the cockpit, if fitted with grab rails on the dodger it is quite easy to move forward keeping a good hold, perhaps surprisingly so. At least until you reach the mast. Beyond that you enter uncharted territory, not uncommon on many boats it must be said and with the self tacker and headsail furler there is no pressing need to go up front in less than perfect conditions.

Performance wise the 400 would be an adequate club racer I'd guess but I doubt you'd be up the pointy end of the fleet. Good boat for a twilight race though. As a cruiser I'd reckon she'd make rapid passages in a fair degree of comfort. I'd not like to take one round Cape Horn on a bad day but then I have no intention of doing so no matter what the boat. 400s have completed the Sydney to Hobart race, one even ending up with a 9th overall so they are capable enough. Me I'd be keeping a close eye on the weather before heading out to cross Bass Strait.

So there you go.

411..












400 MkII





400 MkI



















MKI

Used Hanse 400e for Sale | Yachthub

MkII

Used Hanse 400e for Sale | Yachthub

411

Used Hanse 411 for Sale | Yachthub


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Hey Andrew those two used Hanse's are pretty expensive if we compare prices with used boats in Europe. How much costs a new Hanse 400 there? Do you pay some big tax or Vat on boats that justifies that price? Or is it the transport? How much is the costs you pay on boat transport (from Europe) on a new boat?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,

Late last year the cost of a new H400e was just over AUD$300.000.

As an indication it costs around AUD25.000 to bring a 40'er from Europe to Australia to which needs to be added 5% import duty and 10% GST. It does even things out to some extent but it is still probably worthwhile to buy in Europe and ship to Australia. The main drawback is that one needs to travel to Europe to inspect prospective boats. Not that I don't enjoy travelling to Europe, I love the place, but it is an expensive exercise.

Importing from the US is a little easier if only because of a free trade agreement which removes the import duty and if shipping from West Coast cost is marginally lower.

Of course there is always the temptation to sail a boat back from the US to Australia. Not such a tempting prospect to sail from Europe. Reality is that it is probably a pipe dream to even think I would sail home from either Europe or America.


----------



## blt2ski

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1295&url=

Here is a H411 near me Andrew. $189K US. Do not know the exchange rate currently. I could swing by and take a peak if you like. There is one other 411/400 used for sale here in the US, on the east coast, with a sold on it, that one is also epoxy hulled.

Wife likes the Hanse's when we have been aboard them during the local boat shows. The dealer for the Salish sea is up in Vancouver BC.

Marty


----------



## blt2ski

Andrew,

You were wondering if the higher freeboard might make the Hanse more prone to drifting at anchor. I would say probably/maybe. A friend of mine a few weeks back mentioned he drifted a lot anchoring until he went with 70-80' of chain and a size or two larger anchor. Now he has a pile of chain on the ground, boat does not drift as much.... He lets out the chain so it is just in the water, ties off the rope rode, he gets a good nights sleep. He usually stays in 20-30' of water, so this works out well for him. If you are deeper, a bit more chain...... Any way, a number of ways to stop the sailing around at anchor. maybe even a small stern anchor!

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Andrew,
> 
> You were wondering if the higher freeboard might make the Hanse more prone to drifting at anchor. I would say probably/maybe. ...


I guess drifting in this case is to swing around about 45º to each side of the anchor line?

All light modern boats do that. The Hanse has a smaller freeboard than many other cruiser boats (Dehler 41Ds, Beneteau (Oceanis), Jeanneau DS, Elan cruiser series and so on).

That happened noticeably on my Bavaria till the moment I have rigged a small dedicated back stabilizing sail. Since than I had no more problems. Not only the swinging was much reduced as the boat under heavy winds put a noticeable less strain on the chain (the boat is not moving forward, but you can see the chain slack a bit each time the boat swings).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> A motorcycle, I am telling you and not with a negative sense.


So it seems to be time to list all the weight of parts required.
Are there any overviews with typical weights available? (for extra equipment such as solar panels, radar, autopilot, watermaker, radio/antenna, ... )
Food, water, fuel and personal effects are relatively easy to determine.

The Pogo 12.50 should be fine with 1-1.5 tons, crew included, right?
Ulf


----------



## PCP

*On design boat speed and weight*



myocean said:


> So it seems to be time to list all the weight of parts required.
> Are there any overviews with typical weights available? (for extra equipment such as solar panels, radar, autopilot, watermaker, radio/antenna, ... )
> Food, water, fuel and personal effects are relatively easy to determine.
> 
> The Pogo 12.50 should be fine with 1-1.5 tons, crew included, right?
> Ulf


Ulf,

What makes the Pogo special is the small wind speed that it needs to make it start to plane downwind. The wind speed the boat needs to plane rapidly increases with weight.

The boat would be alright with 1/1.5 T of weight and it will still be a fast boat, but nothing compared with the boat in light condition.

I would say that anything more than 500kg (food, personal items) would have a very significant effect on the boat performance. Even full tanks and empty tanks will make a difference.

For cruising extensively with this boat (sailing the way the boat was designed to sail) you need to have really a special mind set, the kind of the one you find on guys that like to cruise extensively on a motorcycle. That means a very sportive and spartan way of life.

I would say that on a boat like the salona 41 the performances would be less affected by a superior carrying weight, but even here I am talking about 1T for crew, food and personal items (and that is also on the sportive/spartan side for many cruisers).

If you want to go *relatively* fast with a more considerable load go with a RM 1200. Of course you will never go at the same speed that any of the other boats can offer, but the extra weight will be less noticeable on the RM 1200 performance.

If you need to carry 1.5 T and want a really fast boat that can carry it without being too much affected, than you need a bigger performance cruiser, like the Salona 44, the Elan 45, the First 45 or the Pogo 50.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 400*



tdw said:


> Paulo,
> 
> The 400 is actually in its mk III form although all versions use the same hull and very similar interior layouts. The revamp from MkII to MkIII was more thorough than MkI to MkII. The boat we looked at was a MkII.
> 
> In general.....
> 
> To be honest we came to the 400 by default. The Wombet and I had decided that for various reasons we needed to look at boats that were relatively easy to handle.
> 
> As I've talked about previously the Dehler DS41 is , of the reasonably priced production boats, pretty close to my ultimate but unfortunately only a couple of them ever came to Australia, indeed only 100 or so were ever built, the majority of which are in Europe. I believe from talking with the US distributor of Dehler that less than ten ever made it across the Atlantic. Other Dehlers are more numerous but not in Australia and they are seriously expensive down here. At this moment only one Dehler is for sale in Australia and she has a long racing and charter history so she may well be a bit tired.
> 
> So......looking around I found a Hanse 411 for sale in Queensland. Now this is an older boat (the forerunner to the 400) and the basic design appealed to us. The negative was a shoal keel with 5'1" (1.5m) draft. Standard keel on the 411 was 6'5" (2.0m). 2m is as deep as I'd go in a cruising boat but 1.5m seems a bit shallow to me.
> 
> Which led me to look at the more common H400. Including the 411 there are as many 40' Hanses in Australia as there were Dehler DS41s built world wide.
> 
> For me the H400 is something of a curate's egg....good in parts. In the two cabin, extended galley, single head MkI version she is I think for us a good boat. Losing the third cabin gives you a massive cockpit locker that is also accessible from the galley. Partitioned and with storage bins or baskets the f'ward section would make a great pantry with the aft section still having plenty of room for sails and other cruising essentials. Second cabin is to port and when fitted with lee clothes gives, along with the main settee, two decent sea berths plus space under the cockpit for life raft stowage.
> 
> Head, quite acceptably sized for two people, is also aft. Fitted with a folding shower screen that is obviously someone's idea of a joke. The shower space would be bloody useless if you close the screen and while I am tallish I am not a large frame.
> 
> F'ward cabin has a good sized berth with room to sleep feet aft. This is a must have feature for us. We both like sleeping up front but I have had it with the cramped nature of most v-berths.
> 
> We like our food, we like to cook. In the H400 MkI twin the galley is a beauty. Plenty of space for two people is need be, twin sinks on centre line, fridge that is both top and front loading, space for a three burner range. The three cabin and all the MkIIs make do with a far less acceptable galley and that's a deal killer for us.
> 
> I think its also fair to emphasise that the H400 is not a truly acceptable cruising alternative for most people particularly those with a family or who intend carrying more than two people for any length of time nor for those thiking of long ocean voyages. They simply do not have the cargo carrying capacity of heavier displacement boats. Our cruising ideal is based on mainly coastal and/or short ocean hops where we would spend a few weeks out of the loop followed by a week in port. The 400 is capable of handling this where her crew is just two. Beyond that you would simply run out of fresh/refigerated food and be relying on tinned and processed plus whatever the sea gives up.
> 
> I'd note that from the moment you go below until you are in the f'ward cabin you are never out of reach of a handhold. Giving the voluminous nature of the main cabin you would need them in any sort of seway.
> 
> Up top the 400 is pretty impressive though in standard form woefully lacking in cruising niceties. No dodger, no bimini, no cockpit covers. Mk II is completely open at the stern, has huge single wheel and nowhere for the helmsman to comfortably sit. The MkI had aft end of cockpit enclosed with an opening gate/helmsman seat, the MIII a fold up boarding platform with twin wheels. For cruising the MkII version would be awful. General cockpit comfort however is excellent. When fitted with a dodger and cushions one could hunker down in that cockpit in comfort and splendour. With drop sides and a full cockpit awning it also becomes a pilot house.
> 
> Which brings me to windage. One friend has commented to me re the 400's freeboard. At first I disagreed with him but it is true to say that she has pretty high freeboard, a trait shared with quite a few of her modern brethren it would appear. Will she dance the fandango at anchor ? Quite possibly. Keeping the anchor away from that stright stem might be challenging as well.
> 
> Beyond the cockpit comfort on deck is good. Paulo has noted that winches seem somewhat undersized and I'd tend to agree with him though self tacking headsail does away with the need for large sheet winches unless you intend to carry a non self tacking genoa. Personally I would probably add a couple of extra larger sheet winches for which mounting points are provided. All other controls are back to cockpit and sensibly laid out. Sailing this boat single handed would be a doddle.
> 
> F'ward of the cockpit, cabin top grab rails are shorter than I'd like but from the cockpit, if fitted with grab rails on the dodger it is quite easy to move forward keeping a good hold, perhaps surprisingly so. At least until you reach the mast. Beyond that you enter uncharted territory, not uncommon on many boats it must be said and with the self tacker and headsail furler there is no pressing need to go up front in less than perfect conditions.
> 
> Performance wise the 400 would be an adequate club racer I'd guess but I doubt you'd be up the pointy end of the fleet. Good boat for a twilight race though. As a cruiser I'd reckon she'd make rapid passages in a fair degree of comfort. I'd not like to take one round Cape Horn on a bad day but then I have no intention of doing so no matter what the boat. 400s have completed the Sydney to Hobart race, one even ending up with a 9th overall so they are capable enough. Me I'd be keeping a close eye on the weather before heading out to cross Bass Strait.
> ..


Thanks Andrews, that was a nice post. I agree with almost everything except this:

"I think its also fair to emphasise that the H400 is not a truly acceptable cruising alternative for most people particularly those with a family or who intend carrying more than two people for any length of time nor for those thiking of long ocean voyages. They simply do not have the cargo carrying capacity of heavier displacement boats. Our cruising ideal is based on mainly coastal and/or short ocean hops where we would spend a few weeks out of the loop followed by a week in port. The 400 is capable of handling this where her crew is just two. Beyond that you would simply run out of fresh/refigerated food and be relying on tinned and processed plus whatever the sea gives up".

Yes that is true that the boat will not have the carrying capacity of a heavier sailing boats but I think they will be alright for a small family (2, 3 kids) even for an occasional ocean crossing (with the two cabin version). This boat has a bigger than average freezer, but I think that you are giving to much importance to refrigerated food. For hundreds of years men make several months passages without refrigerated food .

There are plenty of options, from lyophilized vegetables and dishes to old ways of preserving food. Those old ways have been disappearing except on old countries where this old recipes are today considered as delicacies. We have a lot of them: Rojões, Chanfana, Dried cod fish, Enguias de escabeche, dry cheeses and olive oil preserved or smoked special sausages are just some...and I know of some other delicacies from Spain, France and Germany...and my mouth is beginning to water

Many fruits can take all the journey if putted on nets and rice, pasta, potatoes and all kind of beans are always a good source of proteins. I guess that from the lyophilized food I would only carry fresh vegetables. I would keep the freezer mostly for fresh beer and fresh white wine .

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

blt2ski said:


> http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1295&url=
> 
> Here is a H411 near me Andrew. $189K US. Do not know the exchange rate currently. I could swing by and take a peak if you like. There is one other 411/400 used for sale here in the US, on the east coast, with a sold on it, that one is also epoxy hulled.
> 
> Wife likes the Hanse's when we have been aboard them during the local boat shows. The dealer for the Salish sea is up in Vancouver BC.
> 
> Marty


Hey Marty,
I did look at the advert for that one and to be honest it is a really impressive looking boat. Its one great flaw as far as we are concerned is the second head. Takes away half the stowage space in the f'ward cabin and to my mind makes the v-berth a tadge claustrophobic. Anywho, this is getting off topic....I'll PM you.
cheers
Andrew

ps - in reality I probably like the 411 more than the 400 and I find it interesting that late model 411s often carry a similar or even higher price than early model 400s.


----------



## bb74

myocean said:


> So it seems to be time to list all the weight of parts required.
> Are there any overviews with typical weights available? (for extra equipment such as solar panels, radar, autopilot, watermaker, radio/antenna, ... )
> Food, water, fuel and personal effects are relatively easy to determine.
> 
> The Pogo 12.50 should be fine with 1-1.5 tons, crew included, right?
> Ulf


4 crew with gear and clothing about 600 kilos. Provisions for 4 for 2 weeks 250 kilos. Water tanks + on-board kit & "stuff" another 500 kilos.

Once the winds top 15 kts, I don't think the difference of a few hundred kilos will make a huge difference in speed. Below that you may lose some speed but you still have the fingertip touch on steerage, acceleration and feel of the boat.

That being said, I've spent a week cruising the Alps on a Buell with nothing more than a 25 liter sack strapped on the back. Made all the easier by having full leathers so other than a shirt and pair of shorts, toothbrush, underwear and deodorant, and a trusty credit card what else do you really need?! Same for sailing but I am a bit "rustic"....


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Thanks Andrews, that was a nice post. I agree with almost everything except this:
> 
> "I think its also fair to emphasise that the H400 is not a truly acceptable cruising alternative for most people particularly those with a family or who intend carrying more than two people for any length of time nor for those thiking of long ocean voyages. They simply do not have the cargo carrying capacity of heavier displacement boats. Our cruising ideal is based on mainly coastal and/or short ocean hops where we would spend a few weeks out of the loop followed by a week in port. The 400 is capable of handling this where her crew is just two. Beyond that you would simply run out of fresh/refigerated food and be relying on tinned and processed plus whatever the sea gives up".
> 
> Yes that is true that the boat will not have the carrying capacity of a heavier sailing boats but I think they will be alright for a small family (2, 3 kids) even for an occasional ocean crossing (with the two cabin version). This boat has a bigger than average freezer, but I think that you are giving to much importance to refrigerated food. For hundreds of years men make several months passages without refrigerated food .
> 
> There are plenty of options, from lyophilized vegetables and dishes to old ways of preserving food. Those old ways have been disappearing except on old countries where this old recipes are today considered as delicacies. We have a lot of them: Rojões, Chanfana, Dried cod fish, Enguias de escabeche, dry cheeses and olive oil preserved or smoked special sausages are just some...and I know of some other delicacies from Spain, France and Germany...and my mouth is beginning to water
> 
> Many fruits can take all the journey if putted on nets and rice, pasta, potatoes and all kind of beans are always a good source of proteins. I guess that from the lyophilized food I would only carry fresh vegetables. I would keep the freezer mostly for fresh beer and fresh white wine .
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hey...you are not allowed to disagree with me. Don't you know who I am ? Disagree with me and you'll end up being banned for life or at the very least taken out and keel hauled. 

Paulo I take your point. For me and the Wombet such non refrigerated foodstuffs would not be a problem I assure you....mmmm Bacalao.....I've never eaten Rojões or Chanfana but looking at the recipes I'm sure I would be happy. Whenever we go away we always take a selection of meats (Jamon, Salami, Bacon) and dry cheeses (manchega for one). Buy in lumps and not sliced they'll keep forever if stored in a cool place. As you say many fruits and vegetables do keep for long periods if kept aired and/or cool, though I don't have much experience with freeze drying. Cryovac meat and it will keep for am amazing length of time. I do draw the line at chewing on strips of leather and eating ships biscuit. 

Really I was speaking in general terms. Compared to many other cruising boats the Hanse is limited in storage capacity. As an example, some years back we nearly bought a Passport 42. Lovely old thing she was though hardly speedy. I would guess that her load carrying capacity would have been twice that of the Hanse, certainly she had twice the refrigeration capacity and all her lockers would have been twice the depth of the 400s. The Hanse we were on , which I thought was fairly typical actually had very little freezer capacity, not much more than the ability to make a few ice cubes. I've noticed that in the Hanse forums the long term cruisers usually install another freezer in the locker. Personally I would prefer little or no freezing capacity simply because of the energy consumed.

Europeans (and Asians) have a mentality that I think embraces naturally preserved foods more readily than Americans. Australians probably somewhere in the middle. Certainly for us the Hanse would have more than adequate capacity though I do suspect that the average American family (if there is such a thing) would not embrace the likes of Bacalao with much enthusiasm at all.

Cheers

Andrew


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> 4 crew with gear and clothing about 600 kilos. Provisions for 4 for 2 weeks 250 kilos. Water tanks + on-board kit & "stuff" another 500 kilos.
> 
> Once the winds top 15 kts, I don't think the difference of a few hundred kilos will make a huge difference in speed. Below that you may lose some speed but you still have the fingertip touch on steerage, acceleration and feel of the boat.
> 
> That being said, I've spent a week cruising the Alps on a Buell with nothing more than a 25 liter sack strapped on the back. Made all the easier by having full leathers so other than a shirt and pair of shorts, toothbrush, underwear and deodorant, and a trusty credit card what else do you really need?! Same for sailing but I am a bit "rustic"....


Well, that's the spirit

BB,

I guess that that probably I have exaggerated. Let's say crew and 500kg of food and personal equipment. It also seems to me that you and your friends eat a lot . Something like 4.5kg a day/person. It must be the beer

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

bb74 said:


> 4 crew with gear and clothing about 600 kilos. Provisions for 4 for 2 weeks 250 kilos. Water tanks + on-board kit & "stuff" another 500 kilos.
> 
> Once the winds top 15 kts, I don't think the difference of a few hundred kilos will make a huge difference in speed. Below that you may lose some speed but you still have the fingertip touch on steerage, acceleration and feel of the boat.
> 
> That being said, I've spent a week cruising the Alps on a Buell with nothing more than a 25 liter sack strapped on the back. Made all the easier by having full leathers so other than a shirt and pair of shorts, toothbrush, underwear and deodorant, and a trusty credit card what else do you really need?! Same for sailing but I am a bit "rustic"....


This sounds more reasonable for me.
Yes, Paulo has may be exaggerated a bit... 

So I really think technical equipment will be the main part. And for a circumnavigation you need to take a bit more food with you (enough for may be 2 month?). Water can be reduced if you have a watermaker.
25 kg for the alps is quite a lot I think. I cycled through India for 5 weeks with just 7 kg on my back. But India is warm and a you can have a hotel room every night.


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> Well, that's the spirit
> 
> BB,
> 
> I guess that that probably I have exaggerated. Let's say crew and 500kg of food and personal equipment. It also seems to me that you and your friends eat a lot . Something like 4.5kg a day/person. It must be the beer
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


2 litres of water to drink, a few beers, and food and that comes out to close to 4kg a day when all is said and done.


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> 2 litres of water to drink, a few beers, and food and that comes out to close to 4kg a day when all is said and done.


On a boat like that you just screw a filter on the water tap and drink the water from the tanks, or, as Ulf said, just have a watermaker. That would mean almost half of the weight you are considering for food....and that is a lot. Two liters of water for 2 months, as Ulf is proposing for just 2 guys would be about 240kg, only for drinking water and that is a lot and most of all, it can be avoided.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

myocean said:


> This sounds more reasonable for me.
> Yes, Paulo has may be exaggerated a bit...
> 
> So I really think technical equipment will be the main part. And for a circumnavigation you need to take a bit more food with you (enough for may be 2 month?). Water can be reduced if you have a watermaker.
> 25 kg for the alps is quite a lot I think. I cycled through India for 5 weeks with just 7 kg on my back. But India is warm and a you can have a hotel room every night.


25 liter volume sack, but only about 5-6 kilos of kit in it at the time.

As for a circumnavigation on a Pogo 12.50, certainly feasible but I would look at what type of sailing and what type of visiting I would want to do and plan the boat accordingly. I know that if I were to head out long term, I would probably buy something a bit more comfy and with more carrying capacity.

For me the Pogo is great for extended (4-6) week cruises with 4 weeks of anchoring and 2 weeks of dockside living - say every 5-6 days tie up, fill the tanks, get a hot shower and eat out for a day or two. I don't think I'd want to live exclusively on a Pogo non-stop for 2 months. Can be done for sure, just not what I'd be looking for.


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> ...
> So I really think technical equipment will be the main part. And for a circumnavigation you need to take a bit more food with you (enough for may be 2 month?). Water can be reduced if you have a watermaker.
> 25 kg for the alps is quite a lot I think.* I cycled through India for 5 weeks with just 7 kg on my back.* But India is warm and a you can have a hotel room every night.


It seems that both of you have passed the test regarding spartan spirit to cruise in the Pogo 12.50. Fact is that in what regards cruising it would be fine with me, even for extended cruising.

What the Pogo cannot offer is a comfortable ambiance for living aboard for extended periods of time and I want not only a boat for cruising but also as a "second home", and for that I find the Pogo to spartan for my taste. That's why I am dreaming with the Salona 41: Less expensive, fast (faster upwind slower downwind), with a bigger loading capacity and most of all, with a much more comfortable ambiance.

Funny that one of the things that comes to my mind is that in the Pogo, even with a good sound system, you would never get a decent sound. All that reflective plastic will make it impossible, and that for me is a big problem: I just love music and that is important for me (odd isn't it, I mean that it can be for me a decisive factor on a boat selection ).

But If I planned doing a fast circumnavigation perhaps I would have chosen the Pogo. On a mostly downwind affair, like a circumnavigation, there is simply no other boat that can be compared in price for speed, safety and fun of sailing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> On a boat like that you just screw a filter on the water tap and drink the water from the tanks, or, as Ulf said, just have a watermaker. That would mean almost half of the weight you are considering for food....and that is a lot. Two liters of water for 2 months, as Ulf is proposing for just 2 guys would be about 240kg, only for drinking water and that is a lot and most of all, it can be avoided.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Fair point. A decent watermaker installed is going to add about 30 kg, and you will need to run the engine to power the batteries to run it as well. Probably need an extra battery "just in case" for another 15kilos. Probably 30 litres of diesel for the 2 months. Given you'd have at least "survival water on-board, say at least a weeks worth (30 kilos) you are now looking at 105 kilos. Overall it would save a bunch of weight to do it this way so the only possible upside of having on-board water is to use it as ballast if you are running offwind for extended periods of time.


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> ... Overall it would save a bunch of weight to do it this way so the only possible upside of having on-board water is to use it as ballast if you are running offwind for extended periods of time.


Humm! on four pages they never talk about water ballast and they say this:

"that's the same hull of the racing boat...the bigger power of the S2 (racing version), that translates in about 0.5K close to the wind and 1K downwind, comes from the 750L of water ballast that you can find on the racing version....

The S2 has 40% more righting moment at 25º of heel, and that's only on account of the water ballast"

So this boatt has no water ballast. I heard that they intended to have water ballast on this boat, but probably give up because of the price. I don't know if they can have it as an extra, but they say that this boat costs in its basic version, that is really very basic: 186 000€ and that the cost of the boat that was tested was 235 000 € (without taxs) and that is already a lot.

Compared to the Salona S41, the basic price of the Pogo is already 27 000€ euros more expensive and the Salona comes, as a standard boat, with much more equipment. If you equipped the boats similarly I guess that difference in price should be around 35 000€ or more.

And this is without taking into consideration discounts. For what I have heard Pogo was a no discount policy while on a Salona it is expected to have some discount. To give you an idea, Salona was offering to the ones that bought the boats on the winter boat shows big discounts on the boat packages of equipment. If you bought the three basic packages: Ready to sail; Performance; comfort; you will end up with a very well equipped boat with a 15 600€ discount.

All in all, it is a lot of money more for a boat faster downwind and slower upwind, with a less comfortable interior and a lesser carrying capacity.

Let me say that I understand you guys, I have said that if I was making a circumnavigation and if I had the extra money I probably would go with the Pogo. But the Pogo is a passion choice, not a rational one. But I am not saying that sail and owning a boat has anything of rational . Not me, I have made the Mats and it is a lot cheaper to charter a boat than having one (unless you chose to have an old boat).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> What the Pogo cannot offer is a comfortable ambiance for living aboard for extended periods of time and I want not only a boat for cruising but also as a "second home", and for that I find the Pogo to spartan for my taste.


Aren't the people aboard the major factor regarding the atmosphere?



PCP said:


> That's why I am dreaming with the Salona 41: Less expensive, fast (faster upwind slower downwind), w


Really? How much faster?


----------



## myocean

bb74 said:


> Fair point. A decent watermaker installed is going to add about 30 kg, and you will need to run the engine to power the batteries to run it as well. Probably need an extra battery "just in case" for another 15kilos. Probably 30 litres of diesel for the 2 months. Given you'd have at least "survival water on-board, say at least a weeks worth (30 kilos) you are now looking at 105 kilos. Overall it would save a bunch of weight to do it this way so the only possible upside of having on-board water is to use it as ballast if you are running offwind for extended periods of time.


Well,
the watermaker gets powered by the same device the people from Barcelona World Race are using now (probably just the cruising version)
The hydrogenerator from Watt&Sea: Watt and Sea - Lâ€™hydrogÃ©nÃ©rateur - Une solution simple et efficace

Having the water as ballast is not very effective. You will rarely have 750 liters available and something like 200 will not help so much and even become less and less by the time. (I sailed on a Pogo 40 and really liked the 750 kg  )
Additionally for water ballast you would need the same storage volume twice, on port and starboard but that space is very valuable.


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> Humm! on four pages they never talk about water ballast and they say this:
> 
> "that's the same hull of the racing boat...the bigger power of the S2 (racing version), that translates in about 0.5K close to the wind and 1K downwind, comes from the 750L of water ballast that you can find on the racing version....
> 
> The S2 has 40% more righting moment at 25º of heel, and that's only on account of the water ballast"
> 
> So this boatt has no water ballast. I heard that they intended to have water ballast on this boat, but probably give up because of the price. I don't know if they can have it as an extra, but they say that this boat costs in its basic version, that is really very basic: 186 000€ and that the cost of the boat that was tested was 235 000 € (without taxs) and that is already a lot.
> 
> Compared to the Salona S41, the basic price of the Pogo is already 27 000€ euros more expensive and the Salona comes, as a standard boat, with much more equipment. If you equipped the boats similarly I guess that difference in price should be around 35 000€ or more.
> 
> And this is without taking into consideration discounts. For what I have heard Pogo was a no discount policy while on a Salona it is expected to have some discount. To give you an idea, Salona was offering to the ones that bought the boats on the winter boat shows big discounts on the boat packages of equipment. If you bought the three basic packages: Ready to sail; Performance; comfort; you will end up with a very well equipped boat with a 15 600€ discount.
> 
> All in all, it is a lot of money more for a boat faster downwind and slower upwind, with a less comfortable interior and a lesser carrying capacity.
> 
> Let me say that I understand you guys, I have said that if I was making a circumnavigation and if I had the extra money I probably would go with the Pogo. But the Pogo is a passion choice, not a rational one. But I am not saying that sail and owning a boat has anything of rational . Not me, I have made the Mats and it is a lot cheaper to charter a boat than having one (unless you chose to have an old boat).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I agree with everything you said there. The 12.50 has no ballast system but the 40 S2 does.

On the economics, it makes little sense to own unless you are going to be sailing a minimum 3 months a year for 4-6 years. That's a pretty tough threshold to achieve while working, having a family, etc. Obviously, if you own, sailing all the destinations during that time is doubly difficult while if renting, it's a cheap flight and you're half way across the world discovering new stomping grounds.

I've given up on rationalizing a purchase, but it doesn't mean I wont buy a Pogo 10.50 in the mid term (3-5 years delivery). The beauty with boats like that is because there are no discounts and they are well built boats in demand, you can sell them pretty easily and at a very fair rate. Owning one will still cost you about 20K€ per year when all is said and done (without payments) and that is why ownership is a luxury. A 10.50 fitted out is going to be in the 195-210K€ range with tax, a 12.50 will be in the 250-270K€ range with tax. That's with top of the line sails, hardware, electronics, etc.

I've not done the detailed math compared to the others but I believe that the major impact on the ownership cost delta is the cost to finance that extra capital, not so much the actual € figure as you will get much of it back when you sell. I am fortunate to not have a "problem" either way in the event the resale market tanks. My only problem is I live a bit over 4 hours from the Med.


----------



## RXBOT

*Azuree 40*

Paulo do you have any thoughts on the Azuree 40 as a fast cruiser?


----------



## myocean

RXBOT said:


> Paulo do you have any thoughts on the Azuree 40 as a fast cruiser?


Wow, great discovery!
May be a bit heavy but anyway...
The interior looks good!
199 square meter sail area downwind?!


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> I was thinking of posting about it. As you know it was one of the finalist of the European boat of the year. I will post about it soon. I have read some tests about it
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,
Now that is an interesting looking thing isn't it ? Look forward to your post. In the meantime.....Azuree


----------



## myocean

After looking at the large number of reviews available on the website I think the Azuree is a fast boat, but it seems to have difficulties to get into planing like a Pogo
Even with quite some wind, speeds down wind are far away from the Pogo.
May be this is exactly the effect of 1-1.5 tons additional weight we discussed before?


----------



## PCP

*Azuree 40*



myocean said:


> After looking at the large number of reviews available on the website I think the Azuree is a fast boat, but it seems to have difficulties to get into planing like a Pogo
> Even with quite some wind, speeds down wind are far away from the Pogo.
> May be this is exactly the effect of 1-1.5 tons additional weight we discussed before?


Exactly. The Azuree 40 is basically a Class 40 hull with a "normal" cruising interior, an heavy one. The basic version boat weights 1800Kg more than the Pogo and has a relatively big tankage for a boat with those characteristics (320L of water and 120L of fuel). This is a kind of boat that tries to make a "normal" boat out of a Pogo. Well, it has a better interior, but as you have said, it does not plane like a Pogo

Remember when you have asked why there was not more cruising boats like the Pogo and I have replied:



PCP said:


> There are however several cruising boats that are made around the Pogo idea of cruising. We have already talked about some and we will talk of more. There are one that is not so radical (better interior), *it's fast and it is not as expensive as the others*. Anyway you would have to pay for such a boat at leat more 50 000 euros than for a comparable Elan or Salona.


Well, I has thinking about the Azuree 40

I had also said that :



PCP said:


> ....
> The reason why you don't see them on mass production boats (Elan seems to be an exception) is because those boats are more expensive to build and because those boats are designed for Ocean downwind sailing and that is just not the type of sailing most sailors do. Going upwind a Pogo will not be faster and would be more uncomfortable. If the sea is rough, the Pogo will be slower than a good cruising racer. I have already refereed the case of a racing Pogo (class 40) that on the two last editions of the "Sydney-Hobart" (mostly am upwind race was slower than an almost standard First 40 (cruiser racer).
> 
> Also boats like the Pogo, to really enjoy their sailing potential, need to carry not too much load and that implies a kind of a spartan way of cruising ( a bit like a guy that prefers to cruise on a motorcycle than on a car). It will be a lot more fun but it is just not for most of the people.


This one carries a bigger load, so it is really a heavy motorcycle and heavy motorcycles give not so much fun to ride

They have another version, lighter that is called fast cruiser that uses some 50% of carbon and its lighter 200Kg. The tests I have read were with this version that has a 2.6m draft. The boat sails well.

I have saw the stability curve of that one and it was all right, but I don't need to see the one from the cruiser version to know that I would not have liked. The cruiser version has a reasonable draft of 2.1m but only more 50kg of ballast. Something wrong here, for having a similar curve the short keel boat should have several hundred kg more, not more 50kg . I would not have that one, neither the one with the 2.6M keel, because that's too much (even for me ) for cruising.

Besides I don't like the puffed look the boat has, like if it was a blown out Pogo. Don't like the chic trendy interior also. It is not the quality of the design but I don't found it adapted to a fast boat. It seems out of place to me.

As positive points you have a fast boat (yachting world says that it goes at 7K upwind and 10 downwind), specially downwind with a good cruising interior at a fair price. The fast cruising version costs 190 000 € and the "normal" cruising version 147 000 €, prices without taxes and without extras.

comments?









































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> Really? How much faster?


Well, the Salona 41 is about as fast as the First 40 upwind. With flat water will just point a big higher but with waves it can make a very considerable difference, not to mention a much easier and comfortable motion

To have an idea of what that difference can be, take a look at the previous post, were it is refereed again that example of the Sydney Hobart race: First 40 versus Racing 40 Pogo. Remember that Pogo is a racing one, with water ballast and about more 40% righting moment than the Pogo 12.50 and that First 40 is basically a standard boat with the performance pack.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

That Azuree sure is ugly....

On a more serious note, some downsides for me... I don't like the idea of having a mainsheet traveler in the middle of the cockpit like they have. Add the two wheels and the chartplotter set-up and you have a crowded cockpit. Likewise, the foresail tracks are weird, having 2 tracks on each side for a genoa and smaller foresail, just adds complexity and indicated to me they weren't in synch on sailplan and rigging which is a red flag. I don't like the sprit going into the hull, just creates a weak spot and possible leak. No (or hidden) anchor locker so a big hassle dropping the hook every time. >2M plus draw is a downer for me to get into the nice spots in the Med in high season.

I'm sure it's a nice boat, but aside from some wood veneer that gives no additional stowage, I don't see the upside argument. You can get another 180L of water on a 10.50 for a moderate fee. Engine performance is a ratio of displacement to torque so 80 litres of diesel is more than enough for extended cruising when a boat moves very well at under 10 kts of wind.

The RM 10.50/1060 is a better compromise than this one in my opinion. Otherwise, go bigger with an Opium 39 and swing keel.

As for the "old" Pogo 40 and the "new" S2, completely different boat and performance. I don't doubt the upwind performance and comfort of a X or Salonas, First or J would be like or better and if you are in sailing grounds where this is a major factor, you would need to take that into consideration. To each his own and as long as you have the €/$/£, you can get whatever you want these days.


----------



## sailingdog

the ports in the hull are also a huge potential problem. Any reason they had to double up on the potential leaks?


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> That Azuree sure is ugly....
> 
> On a more serious note, some downsides for me... I don't like the idea of having a mainsheet traveler in the middle of the cockpit like they have. Add the two wheels and the chartplotter set-up and you have a crowded cockpit. Likewise, the foresail tracks are weird, having 2 tracks on each side for a genoa and smaller foresail, just adds complexity and indicated to me they weren't in synch on sailplan and rigging which is a red flag. I don't like the sprit going into the hull, just creates a weak spot and possible leak. No (or hidden) anchor locker so a big hassle dropping the hook every time. >2M plus draw is a downer for me to get into the nice spots in the Med in high season.
> 
> I'm sure it's a nice boat, but aside from some wood veneer that gives no additional stowage, I don't see the upside argument. You can get another 180L of water on a 10.50 for a moderate fee. Engine performance is a ratio of displacement to torque so 80 litres of diesel is more than enough for extended cruising when a boat moves very well at under 10 kts of wind.
> 
> The RM 10.50/1060 is a better compromise than this one in my opinion. Otherwise, go bigger with an Opium 39 and swing keel.
> 
> As for the "old" Pogo 40 and the "new" S2, completely different boat and performance. I don't doubt the upwind performance and comfort of a X or Salonas, First or J would be like or better and if you are in sailing grounds where this is a major factor, you would need to take that into consideration. To each his own and as long as you have the €/$/£, you can get whatever you want these days.


I agree with almost everything. But on what regards the traveler in the middle of the cockpit and the anchor locker I think you better look again. The traveler is in between the two wheels, and they have an anchor locker with a windlass and the double bowsprit has an anchor roller between sprits.

Take a look at the comments on the photo:



















But I definitively agree with you that the boat is ugly, for this type of boat .

When I saw the first photos and boat tests I thought to myself : What a waste of a good idea!! The boat offer an interesting compromise, a good price.... why the hell they have to make it ugly?

Yes I think that the Opium 39 is a better compromise, but it is also slightly more expensive than the basic version. Anyway I think the Opium 39 is not available anymore because Wauquiez doesn't exist anymore.

I hope that the new Elan 40 (that would have some similarities with this boat) will be a better and more beautiful boat. That one is a boat that I wait with great expectation.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

sailingdog said:


> the ports in the hull are also a huge potential problem. Any reason they had to double up on the potential leaks?


No idea, just for (bad) aesthetics.

About the leaks they call them inserts now (hull ports). I think it has to do with the technique to make them, and that technique warranties them no leaks (in theory if they are well made).

But I agree, with so many holes on that hull and cabin there is always the risk of something not done properly.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Loft 40*

Another of those cruisers that pick the class 40 hull is the Loft 40 and this one is for me a lot more interesting than the Azuree. Daring and very innovating. Not a boat for everybody, but to a happy couple that likes to receive friends.

The aim of this boat is not maximum performance, but just having a fast cruiser boat that maximizes space concept, in the interior and on the outside. It is called loft because he uses space as continuum. The maneuverer space of the boat is all on the back. There is a covered space that interconnects with the interior, more precisely with the galley and a cabin that opens to the saloon.

This is a two person boat. A boat that can host a party or receive a considerable number of guests. It is a fun boat that with 6.5T and 90m2 of sail and a gennaker with 80m2 should be a pleasant and fast boat to sail. A boat to enjoy life.

Comments please!






















































































































LoftBoats

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Interesting, indeed....

Too austere and 'white' and non-nautical below for me personally, but I suppose you'd get used to that. As you say, a two person boat but a party boat at the same time.

The ubiquitous chines, twin wheels and twin rudders...assuming a T bulb keel?

Is that an under-deck fine tune on the mainsheet (no traveller?)

I actually 'get' the 'super dodger' arrangement and can see that thats a pretty nice feature in certain climates - we saw an Apogee 50 in Seattle that had a hard dodger and a seating/wetgear area outside the companionway but under the hardtop... made sense.

Must the the lenses, but in the sailing shots she looks much bigger than 40 feet.

I'd certainly hide the hull ports in a full length bold stripe....


----------



## sailingdog

No handholds in that beastie...


----------



## PCP

sailingdog said:


> No handholds in that beastie...


Yes, they didn't look nice probably. This is a full custom boat, probably the owner thinks that way. I think a central one in the ceiling would take care of the problem.


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> Interesting, indeed....
> 
> ..
> 
> The ubiquitous chines, twin wheels and twin rudders...assuming a T bulb keel?
> 
> Is that an under-deck fine tune on the mainsheet (no traveller?)
> 
> ....


Yes, a fast hull with a reasonable draft:

DORVAL Architecture Navale

No I don't think it is a fine tune. Just stylish light and clean But you can have one on that place if you want, I am sure.


----------



## blt2ski

That Azure looks like something from the early 90's, ala a Bene First from that time period. 

I like the Loft a bit better. As far as the main traveler goes, "IT BELONGS IN THE COCKPIT!!!!!!" so one can get to it from the helm etc.

Marty


----------



## slap

PCP said:


> Anyway I think the Opium 39 is not available anymore because *Wauquiez doesn't exist anymore*.


I guess I missed the announcement - did they just now close their doors?


----------



## mitiempo

Their website looks like business as usual.
Wauquiez - Les Bateaux Lumière


----------



## slap

mitiempo said:


> Their website looks like business as usual.
> Wauquiez - Les Bateaux Lumière


They probably pay a web developer to run the website. If they are out of business, they might not have any money to pay him to update the website. Valiant Yachts no longer builds new boats as of a couple of weeks ago, yet their website hasn't been updated to reflect the change.


----------



## PCP

*Opium 39 interior panorama*

Hey Guys, they seem to be starting well.

They have improved their website with a very complete and impressive vrtual visit to the Opium 39.

Now you don't have to believe me  . Trough the virtual visit you can feel the perfection on this boat. Nothing less, nothing more. Comfortable lean and fast.

I believe one of the reasons they have not sold it was because people new that Wauquiez was full of debts and were afraid they could pay the signal for a boat...and have no boat at all. Now, with the back up of big money people can be confident again .

Take a look, on the inside and on the outside:

Bateau Opium 39 by Wauquiez : Wauquiez

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

Hi Paulo!
You are right, Opium39 becomes an option again. The February Yacht-Test is interesting. Didn't they offer a lifting keel before? Now it is a 1.25m swing keel which hasn't the disadvantage of the very much reduced interior space. On the other hand the boat can probably not stand on it anymore as shown here
(On Wauquiez - Les Bateaux Lumière it sometimes still looks like the lifting keel with 1.45 draft)
The whole boat looks better now. But how can they build that light with all this comfort?


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> Hi Paulo!
> You are right, Opium39 becomes an option again. The February Yacht-Test is interesting. Didn't they offer a lifting keel before? Now it is a 1.25m swing keel which hasn't the disadvantage of the very much reduced interior space. On the other hand the boat can probably not stand on it anymore as shown here
> (On Wauquiez - Les Bateaux Lumière it sometimes still looks like the lifting keel with 1.45 draft)
> The whole boat looks better now. But how can they build that light with all this comfort?


Hi Ulf!

That boat is an Opium made before Wauquiez started making them.

They never had a lifting keel, always a swinging keel or a fixed keel. That one has the fixed keel that has a 2.13 draft. The one I had sailed had a swing keel and the interior is not very different.

I would prefer the fixed keel version. The need for the swing keel has to do with the big tides on the west coast of France.

The boat is well made and the interior is light but of good quality. They use vinylester resin, vacuum injection and multiaxial fiberglass in the laminate, all to have the least weight and the maximum strengh

I have noticed that they have now a very nice upgrade: the pole for the geenaker is now integrated in the hull and with an easy way to move it in and out. It looks very similar to the one from the Elan 350

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

*Pogo cruisers*

Ladies, gentlemen,

Please excuse me for the continental accent, since Dutch and French are my mother languages.
I have been following this thread for quite some time and found it very interesting and especially helpful.

After 30 years of extensive chartering we finally decided to buy our own boat. Indeed a very irrationate decision, especially when you make the maths, but one once gets tired of downsized rigs, chek-ins and -outs, lousy sails and worn batteries. Now we also would like to be able to go out sailing whenever we want, without extensive planning weeks or months in advance. That's when passion beats ratio and a charterer becomes an owner.

The Pogo rationale has been discussed very well in this thread. 
Before signing up for a 12.50, we visited the Structures yard and their very first 12.50 "Lazuli", and then sailed a 10.50 for a week in Brittany, our very last charter.

Our first experience confirms much of what has been sead on this forum and especially Paulo's very accurate analyses.

The 10.50 has a below average upwind performance but bearing off 10° already gives exhilarating sailing sensations. Pogo's are traditionally built by and for solo sailors, so being overcanvassed just slows you down but without ever bringing you out of control, even when the autopilot is in charge.

Except when manoeuvring on the engine and in close quarters, which is already quite a challenge with the keel (deep!) down and a real nightmare when it's up, because of the twin rudders and the very low weight. So our Pogo will definitely have a (retractable) bow thruster, even if the added weight is a kind of sacrilege in this kind of boats.

4 crew and their one week gear seemed OK, but any more weight will certainly slow you down a lot. It will be a hard but very rewarding challenge to keep the boat as light as possible.

The interior is indeed basic, but works very well. No dust or mildew can hide behind countermouldings and no doors or drawers can hinge out or break down, since there are none. And the lack of space that has been taken beneath berths to foam up the boat and make it unsinkable will probably help us not to overload it. 
The "Swiss chalet" feeling of a classic yacht interior is missing and we also didn't mind having all the bolts and other structures in right sight. 
I'm probably very, very lucky that my beloved wife thinks the same way about this.

When visiting the boatyard it became clear why these Pogo's are expensive. High-tech but fully handmade by absolute no-nonsense sailing freaks, I would not be surprised that cruising clients like us somewhat sponsor the development of their core businness, which is building racing boats. 
Having signed the contract in september 2010, we now look forward to a handover in april ... 2012. This also explains why you don't even try to discuss about any discount on a Pogo.

I will keep you updated and look forward to further discuss the pro's and cons of this kind of cruisers.

Best regards and please keep up this excellent thread,

Eric


----------



## blt2ski

Eric,

At least this left coaster from NA could not see your accent per say. Written English is written english! Altho some of us are not as good as we should be!

It is nice to see someone with experience on these boats to say the reports etc are in line with owners reports per say! Keep replying!

marty


----------



## EricKLYC

Thanks Marty!

Expert opinions on this thread have helped us a lot when deciding for a boat of our own and I very much look forward to discuss different choices with all of you.

Eric


----------



## PCP

Eric, thanks for your kind words 

Are you Flemish (Dutch and French)? I have learned much of what I know about sailing with a Flemish sailor and certainly my English is not better than yours, mine is kind of a Latin one 

And also thanks for your post and your impressions about the Pogo 10.50. Yes you are certainly right about the added difficulty in what regards steering two rudder light boats (motoring) on the marina maneuvers. There are no water from the propeller on the rudders, they circle in a wider space than a conventional boat, are a lot harder to steer backwards and to swing it on a berth.

I also found out on the Opium and on the RM that while they were fine boats while sailing they were a bit slow motoring. I remember that the Opium seemed to glide while sailing but seemed a lot "heavier" while motoring. The boat is very light and with a 40hp engine it should have a very good engine cruising speed, but that was not the case. I have confirmed that with the test results in several boat magazines.

I know that this kind of boats need very little wind to sail, but sometimes there are not any. You have also find this symptoms on the Pogo? I mean, great while sailing, not so great while motoring?

As a side comment, it is nice to find sailors, cruising sailors that choose boats like the Pogo, sailors who find that the pleasure of sailing is so important as the cruising in itself. You will find several around this thread. Welcome to the club. We are a growing community on this forum. 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## panthene

*Azuree 33*

Hello everyone,

I have been following for quite some time, but do excuse me as it is my first post.

I am thinking of purchasing an Azuree 33. Listed as Boat of the Year at the Genoa Boatshow in 2010.

I am very curious to find out what your thoughts are on this boat.

Many thanks and best regards,


----------



## blt2ski

Kewl!

A day for many newbie/lurkers to come out of the wood work! Gotta luv it!

Marty


----------



## EricKLYC

Yes Paulo, I am Flemish! 
Although for the time being -8 months now without a new government- I prefer to see myself as a European citizen... But this is of course outside the subject of this thread.

You are also absolutely right about the Pogo 10.50 being quite slow when motoring. With 18 hp for 3.600 kg the power should be sufficient, I think the wet surface of the hull can be a reason. Being very light, there is also little inertia in a seaway. 
I suspect this will not be different with the 12.50 (30 hp for 5.500 kg) which is also a very light, beamy boat with a flat hull aft. 
But on the other hand, with a Pogo one is supposed to hoist the sails with as little as 4 knts of wind...

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## bb74

EricKLYC said:


> Yes Paulo, I am Flemish!
> Although for the time being -8 months now without a new government- I prefer to see myself as a European citizen... But this is of course outside the subject of this thread.
> 
> You are also absolutely right about the Pogo 10.50 being quite slow when motoring. With 18 hp for 3.600 kg the power should be sufficient, I think the wet surface of the hull can be a reason. Being very light, there is also little inertia in a seaway.
> I suspect this will not be different with the 12.50 (30 hp for 5.500 kg) which is also a very light, beamy boat with a flat hull aft.
> But on the other hand, with a Pogo one is supposed to hoist the sails with as little as 4 knts of wind...
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Eric,
Thanks for the first hand info here. So you went for the 12.50? I assume you rented the Viniloc 10.50?

Any thoughts on the upside between a 12.50 and 10.50 which made the difference for you? I'm considering the 10.50 with the idea of double handing with 2 children for extended cruising and then a few long weekends/weeks with 4-5 adults. Ultimately single handing and transquadra (but 2). I've found 35 feet is about the max I'd want if I have to deal with things alone and from your manoeuves feedback, it sounds like the added size, draft, weight could be a barrier for me.

With the keel up you need to keep 2+ kts of speed to maintain trajectory and control or can you drop it down to 1-1.5 kts?

Thanks again.


----------



## PCP

*Azuree 33*



panthene said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have been following for quite some time, but do excuse me as it is my first post.
> 
> I am thinking of purchasing an Azuree 33. Listed as Boat of the Year at the Genoa Boatshow in 2010.
> 
> I am very curious to find out what your thoughts are on this boat.
> 
> Many thanks and best regards,


Hi there, welcome to the thread

I have mixed feelings about the Azuree 33. It is an interesting boat, no doubt and I find it more balanced than the 40. It is a fast boat that has an outstanding cruising interior (long galley version) with a very big galley for a 33ft, and a really impressive one in a fast boat. If they propose as an option a supplementary water deposit, it would be a boat with a big cruising range.

It is a boat with two big rudders, very stable downwind, fast and with a relatively good pointing ability. On the Solovela boat test they say that it is a nervous boat close to the wind, but that it is expected in this kind of hull, with a big sail area. You have to have a good hand on the wheel and have a hand on the sail controls, to let it go if necessary. That is also the case with the Elan 350, but for what they say, in a lesser extent.

This boat can plane downwind and as all the boats that are designed to do that should not carry much load and be light. Regarding that, the Cruising version weights 5250kg and that seems a lot. The Elan 350, a bigger boat, weights only 5350kg. If you are going to buy one of those consider buying the fast cruiser that weights 4980kg. It will make a difference downwind and they came with a reasonable draft (2.1M).

I have already said that I like the interior that is very well designed and that seems to be better finished than the one from the Elan 350 but , like on the 40, I don't like that high cabin. I don't understand the need. Looking at the interior we can see that there is more than enough standing weight. I can understand that in a slow cruising sailboat the designer pushes a bit the envelope towards higher interiors and plenty of space, but on a fast boat? It makes no sense to me. Makes the boat ugly even if in a lesser extent than the 40.

And then you have the price. This boat costs about the same as the Elan 350 and I don't think it is a match. The Elan 350, a bigger boat will be faster and in my opinion, nicer. It remains the interior that in this boat seems to be very good and cozy...but again, the one from the 350 is bigger.

Don't take me wrong, the Azuree 33 is an interesting boat, what happens is that the Elan 350 is really an outstanding boat and a boat that will be difficult to match.

On the site they have a very good virtual visit :

Azuree

And Solovela has made a nice video when they tested the boat:





































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

bb74 said:


> Eric,
> Thanks for the first hand info here. So you went for the 12.50? I assume you rented the Viniloc 10.50?
> 
> Any thoughts on the upside between a 12.50 and 10.50 which made the difference for you? I'm considering the 10.50 with the idea of double handing with 2 children for extended cruising and then a few long weekends/weeks with 4-5 adults. Ultimately single handing and transquadra (but 2). I've found 35 feet is about the max I'd want if I have to deal with things alone and from your manoeuves feedback, it sounds like the added size, draft, weight could be a barrier for me.
> 
> With the keel up you need to keep 2+ kts of speed to maintain trajectory and control or can you drop it down to 1-1.5 kts?
> 
> Thanks again.


Yes, it was indeed the Viniloc we sailed last summer.

What made the main difference for us is that the 10.50 did not give us the required standing headroom, my sons and myself being quite tall (over 1m90). We also felt the boat was a bit crowded with the four of us, especially if we want to cruise for longer periods of time. 
As stated in this thread before, the sailing is just exhilarating once you can bear down a little, but we sometimes felt we would have done even better with less load.

The 12.50 is of course much bigger, especially inside, and it will certainly be a bit more forgiving when loading 4 or more adults and all the gear for a longer cruise.

We did not sail the 12.50 since it was due for the boat show in La Rochelle. But everything we heard and read seems to confirm that she is just as easy to sail as the 10.50. Which means: very easy.

For single or short handed sailing we think the cockpit of the 12.50 may be better. The steering position is more forward, so you can hide behind the full size hood. We also feel the position of the winches is more ergonomic and better within reach of the helmsman.

But let there be no doubt, we are very enthousiastic about the 10.50 and if it were not for the extra (head-) room, we would certainly have saved ourselves the extra cost for the 12.50.

The directional stability when motoring is even better with the keel up than down, also at very low speed. Turning is the problem and the foil in horizontal position is also much less efficient to withstand windage on this very lightweight hull. We hope the heavier 12.50 will do al little better, but since this might be wishful thinking we added a bow thruster on the option list.
Onder other hand, the 10.50 can be pushed off almost like a dinghy!

In port, I think none of these fast yachts does well, easily planing cruisers with twin rudders are probably all quite challenging. But do they sail fast!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> ...
> 
> The 12.50 is of course much bigger, especially inside, and it will certainly be a bit more forgiving when loading 4 or more adults and all the gear for a longer cruise.
> 
> We did not sail the 12.50 since it was due for the boat show in La Rochelle. But everything we heard and read seems to confirm that she is just as easy to sail as the 10.50. Which means: very easy.
> ...
> The directional stability when motoring is even better with the keel up than down, also at very low speed. Turning is the problem and the foil in horizontal position is also much less efficient to whitstand windage on this very lightweight hull. ...


BB74, I think Eric is right. I would expect that the major difference would be on the load that the boat can carry without affecting too much the performance. The 12.50 can probably carry almost the double of the load the 10.50 can carry. The extra boat mass will make it probably a little less nervous than the 10.50.

Regarding directional stability, when I have tested the Opium 39, the first thing the guy that went with me has done, still in the marina, was to lower the keel. It seemed odd to me and I asked why? He told me that the boat was very hard to steer with the keel up. It seems that the problem came with the territory (two rudders, swinging keel, large transom boats). I would not have many hopes that with the 12.50 it would be any better.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

EricKLYC said:


> Yes, it was indeed the Viniloc we sailed last summer.
> 
> What made the main difference for us is that the 10.50 dit not give us the required standing headroom, my sons and myself being quite tall (over 1m90). We also felt the boat was a bit crowded with the four of us, especially if we want to cruise for longer periods of time.
> As stated in this thread before, the sailing is just exhilarating once you can bear down a little, but we sometimes felt we would have done even better with less load.
> 
> The 12.50 is of course much bigger, especially inside, and it will certainly be a bit more forgiving when loading 4 or more adults and all the gear for a longer cruise.
> 
> We did not sail the 12.50 since it was due for the boat show in La Rochelle. But everything we heard and read seems to confirm that she is just as easy to sail as the 10.50. Which means: very easy.
> 
> For single or short handed sailing we think the cockpit of the 12.50 may be better. The steering position is more forward, so you can hide behind the full size hood. We also feel the position of the winches is more ergonomic and better within reach of the helmsman.
> 
> But let there be no doubt, we are very enthousiastic about the 10.50 and if it were not for the extra (head-) room, we would certainly have saved ourselves the extra cost for the 12.50.
> 
> The directional stability when motoring is even better with the keel up than down, also at very low speed. Turning is the problem and the foil in horizontal position is also much less efficient to whitstand windage on this very lightweight hull. We hope the heavier 12.50 will do al little better, but since this might be wishful thinking we added a bow thruster on the option list.
> Onder other hand, the 10.50 can be fenced off almost like a dinghy!
> 
> In port, I think none of these fast, easily planing cruisers with twin rudders are all quite challenging. But do they sail fast!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Thanks for the feedback Eric. I also prefer the layout of the 12.50 in the cockpit (with the exception of the hale-bas rigging) but having been on a 10.50, it's manageable enough alone in my opinion. I've sailed a 8.50 and am looking at a fall rental of the Viniloc boat to give the 10.50 a spin.

Good point on the weight of the 10.50 and the windage issue with the keel up. My "lake" boat is an Open 5.00 and on a much smaller scale I know exactly what you mean, it can be trying in strong crosswinds and tight berths!!

I'm sure you will be counting the days to April 2012. The 12.50 is a beautiful boat and I'm envious!


----------



## PCP

*On design - Italian beautiful boats*

The Azuree is an Italian boat...and I have been saying that I don't find it beautiful. I have not been posting much about Italian boats. You guys could even think that I don't like Italian boats or that I find them ugly.

Someone had said about this thread that it was full of beautiful boats that he could never had. Well, that's what happens with me regarding Italian sailing boats. They are generally expensive and very beautiful, almost always designed for fast cruising and great sailing performance. They should have already a place on this thread if their price didn't piss me so much. Well, not really the price, that is really what costs to built them, but the fact taht I would never own one

Let's rectify that with some images that will certainly impress you guys. At least they impress me: Ferraris, I tell you












































































































































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> They never had a lifting keel, always a swinging keel or a fixed keel. That one has the fixed keel that has a 2.13 draft. The one I had sailed had a swing keel and the interior is not very different.


So are such Opium 39 drawings as shown here (see "Silhouette")
Voiles et Voiliers - Fiche Bateau - OPIUM 39
just bad communication?

Ulf


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> So are such Opium 39 drawings as shown here (see "Silhouette")
> Voiles et Voiliers - Fiche Bateau - OPIUM 39
> just bad communication?
> 
> Ulf


No, it seems that you are right and that my memoir is not what it used to be

I never saw one with the lifting keel. They were pretty more expensive. That's why they probably changed for a swinging keel.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Hei Ulf, found out the old page from Opium 39. It is still on line, the one from the time Opium was made by Alize. Now Opium is still a very modern boat, some years back it was just revolutionary

http://www.opium39.com/french.html

I have picked up the photos regarding the lifting keel and one of them is the one that was on that add that you have posted. The interior is not very bad, taking into consideration the lifting keel, but now with a swing keel it is almost "normal".


----------



## PCP

*Jpk 10.10*

Le Jury that have chosen this year European boat of the year said:

The panel of judges assessed performance, comfort, construction quality, price -performance ratio, design and the unique selling criteria of each candidate. '*Performance levels were incredibly high this year. This made our decision very difficult in some cases,'* said YACHT editor-in-chief Jochen Rieker, summarizing the current results. 'We were also impressed with the level of innovation shown by the boat builders *and by their readiness to adapt elements from the regatta scene*, for example,' added the yachting expert.

I think they are talking mostly about the choice for the Performance Cruiser. There was three truly great boats on that category, each of them deserving would have won, in a normal year. It is a pity that they had to compete in the same year against each other:

I am talking about the First 30, the Elan 350 and the JPk 10.10.

Take a look at the comments of the Swiss Jury:

*Elan 350
The category of the performance cruiser was the most exciting this year. At the end, the Elan 350 won, because she has the best chances on the market. She combines classy sailing-performance with the comfort-needs of a non-professional crew. *

It gives you a hint that the election was not easy and also that personally, if it was not for the market (price), we would have chosen another boat and I believe that boat would be the JPK 10.10, probably the fastest of all the boats involved. The boat is almost new and is already winning some major international races that were dominated by the A35, that is an incredible fast boat.

Compared with the Elan 350 the JPK is less of a cruiser and more of a racer. That does not mean that the JPK 10.10 is not a cruising boat and cannot be used for cruising. It can, but its interior and storage spaces are just not as good as on the Elan 350, that is, of course, a bigger boat.

So let's have a look at the JPK 10.10:


















































































Some speed numbers taken from the Yacht magazine test sail:

40ºTW with 15K wind = 7.0 60ºTW with 15K wind = 7.2K 90ºTW with 15K wind = 7.2K

120ºTW with 15K wind (with spy) = 7.8K 150ºTW with 15K wind (with spy) = 6.6K

These are impressive results, specially close to the wind.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

I like it! I could even sell my wife on the cockpit, if only the interior wasn't so austere..... looks like a retractable sprit is an option?


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> I like it! I could even sell my wife on the cockpit, if only the interior wasn't so austere..... looks like a retractable sprit is an option?


Hei Faster, with this one you would be the Fastest

About the Sprit, the place for it is there so I am sure you can mount one. This boat (the one you see on the photos) is maximized for IRC.

If you want one maximized for Ocean racing (I am sure this one is going to be one of the Favorites on the next Transquadra) Kleber will mount a bulb on that keel and a long sprit, for maximizing righting moment and downwind speed ride.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*JPK 10.10 movies*

Nice JPK 1010 video(put it in HD-720p):






This one is from a JPK 960, an older and slower boat. You can imagine how it would be with the 1010






sailing yacht charter JPK 9,60 (2 cab)


----------



## bb74

JPK knows how to make aboat for sure. The design works very well for compensated time racing as well as first to cross the line racing. Very sleek design. The 9.60 did have a couple of teething pains with the keel bolts but those were addressed by the shipyard and plans were updated.

The 10.10 is probably about 150K€ fitted, maybe another 10 depending upon the sails you want. That's a big premium on the First 30 or SF3200 for teh same size boat. It will certainly be better built, "stronger", and faster.


----------



## EricKLYC

*Pogomania*



bb74 said:


> Thanks for the feedback Eric. I also prefer the layout of the 12.50 in the cockpit (with the exception of the hale-bas rigging) but having been on a 10.50, it's manageable enough alone in my opinion. I've sailed a 8.50 and am looking at a fall rental of the Viniloc boat to give the 10.50 a spin.
> 
> Good point on the weight of the 10.50 and the windage issue with the keel up. My "lake" boat is an Open 5.00 and on a much smaller scale I know exactly what you mean, it can be trying in strong crosswinds and tight berths!!
> 
> I'm sure you will be counting the days to April 2012. The 12.50 is a beautiful boat and I'm envious!


The downhaul on the 12.50 is indeed a quite "racy" and unconvenient construction for a cruiser, you are absolutely right about that. The designers wanted to keep the sailplan -and thus the gooseneck- as low as possible, which left no sufficient place for a traditional downhaul.
But as long as the mainsail traveller is in charge, it has no use. This peculiar downhaul will therefore only need to be rigged when going deep downwind, when the apparent wind brings the traveller out of range and the twist in the mainsail becomes excessive. 
With this kind of boats, one will then probably already have jibed to keep up the VMG. If not, this downhaul can be rigged in quite comfortable conditions, it will also be much more effective and may even serve as a jibe preventer.

But please make no mistake, also for us the cockpit of the 10.50 worked very well indeed. 
Especially the central console aft, which is not only useful for stocking the liferaft, but also provides very secure and comfortable leaning - sitting - holding in the very beamy aft portion of the cockpit. It is also a practical alternative for the now popular so-called German sheeting system, with the main sheet on a winch and within reach of the helmsman. Only take care to watch the sheet when jibing!
And the twin helms make it much easier to move from one steering position to another, especially when berthing.

We will certainly miss this console on the 12.50, where the aftermost and even more beamy part of the cockpit has been kept completely open to accept an inflated dinghy. There isn't even a backstay to hold on to when p... I'm aware that we will not want to be there in any but the most quiet conditions, while on the 10.50 you will always be very secure all the way aft.

Since you have already sailed the 8.50, I trust you will also enjoy your trip on the 10.50. Weather permitting, there probably is no better way to convince your family than by a sunny afternoon anchoring within the Glénans archipel, with the keel up and almost right up the sandy beach. It's only a short sail away from Viniloc's berth in Concarneau.

Since you already got used to tricky berthing with your open 5.00, I very much welcome your tips & tricks! 
In my sweetest dreams we have stressless surfes at 15+ kts, but in my worst nightmares I smash our future 12.50 into yachts, pontoons, harbour walls and anything else within close range.

You're quite right, we are counting the days until spring 2012. But it's us who should be envious, since you will be sailing a Pogo again in Brittany long before we do. Enjoy!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*On design Keels and rudders*

Some very interesting information about the JPK 1010 that probably is relevant for other similar cases:

*They have compared a 1010 in IRC set up (Keel without a bulb and a single rudder) with a 1010 on Ocean Racing configuration, with a bulbed keel and two rudders.* Boats in the water at the same time with wind conditions between 13 and 20K.

They have found out that close to the wind the speeds are about the same but over 15/16K the bulbed version, that gives more righting moment, permits to close more on the wind and gives more power with a slightly better speed.

Downwind the speeds are the same but the twin rudders give a safer and easier ride and that with a reduced or solo crew means faster.

With a complete crew, the rating favors the non bulbed keel/ single rudder version. JPK is going to maintain that version, but as with a short crew the twin rudder and the bulbed keel is clearly a better option, they are going to make both versions, according to the boat use.

The difference in rating between the two boats is not big (in 2010 was 1/6000 and it is going to be even more reduced this year).

So now you know the advantages and disadvantages of a single and twin rudder and what solution to chose

The JPK 1010 is a relatively narrow boat (3.39M) and the use of twin or single rudder has nothing to do with the boat being too large for a single rudder to be effective on the water at large angles of heel.


----------



## EricKLYC

*Pogomania*



PCP said:


> BB74, I think Eric is right. I would expect that the major difference would be on the load that the boat can carry without affecting too much the performance. The 12.50 can probably carry almost the double of the load the 10.50 can carry. The extra boat mass will make it probably a little less nervous than the 10.50.
> 
> Regarding directional stability, when I have tested the Opium 39, the first thing the guy that went with me has done, still in the marina, was to lower the keel. It seemed odd to me and I asked why? He told me that the boat was very hard to steer with the keel up. It seems that the problem came with the territory (two rudders, swinging keel, large transom boats). I would not have many hopes that with the 12.50 it would be any better.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I think you're right on top again, Paulo.

With the swinging keel up, you not only get less resistance to windage abeam, you also miss the deepness of the keel as a central turning point. Therefore there is more slipping than turning, which is an issue one needs to get used to.

I certainly will have to, since 3.00m will be quite a lot of draft!
But I think this drawback can be acceptable, considering these boats are first designed for sailing, not for maneuvering.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## bb74

Without sounding too lazy for a Pogo, I have the think the "Dock and Go" solution Beneteau have launched would be great on a wide and shallow hull platform with the keel raised.

I don't know the weight it would add to the saildrive system, probably a few hundred Kg's, ???, but that would give you a pivot point at the bottom of the motor and make the boat very maneuverable.

With the dual rudder, you can't count on prop wash for direction, so I think the key is just maintaining forward motion and than hitting reverse once the final trajectory is set. Practice makes perfect and the good thing is the inertia isn't so bad that you can't slow it down quickly.

It's a trade-off I'd gladly make to be able to approach the beach so closely and get into those holes the larger boats can't access. That's a huge asset (at least in the Med) in the summer-time.


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> T...
> Since you already got used to tricky berthing with your open 5.00, I very much welcome your tips & tricks!
> In my sweetest dreams we have stressless surfes at 15+ kts, but in my worst nightmares I smash our future 12.50 into yachts, pontoons, harbour walls and anything else within close range.
> ...
> Eric


How about to put the boat on the berth with a partially raised keel? It should improve things.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

PCP said:


> How about to put the boat on the berth with a partially raised keel? It should improve things.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


This was my thought while working on my boat yesterday. If the keel all the way down is tough to maneuver, along with all the way up, how about playing with the keel up or down in different places to see which might be best for slow speed engine maneuvering?

Marty


----------



## EricKLYC

blt2ski said:


> This was my thought while working on my boat yesterday. If the keel all the way down is tough to maneuver, along with all the way up, how about playing with the keel up or down in different places to see which might be best for slow speed engine maneuvering?
> 
> Marty


Technically it can be done Paulo and Marty, since there is an emergency button to stop the lowering or lifting of the keel. On the other hand, there is no indication of the position of the keel during this movement, although experience would certainly give one a good idea. Even if the keel must be swinged up more than half way before getting a draft reduction of 1m, that should already help a lot while still giving a better turning ability.

But as far as I know, the head is only blocked securely in the keelbox when the keel it is fully down. Sailing with a partially lifted keel is e.g. strictly prohibited. But the lateral forces on the keel should be much smaller when slowly maneuvring. So then this may not be such an issue, even when accidently hitting the ground? Which of course should be avoided in all circumstances, especially because the outer skin of the foil is fiberglass...
I will ask Structures this question at the very next occasion and give you feedback!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

bb74 said:


> Without sounding too lazy for a Pogo, I have the think the "Dock and Go" solution Beneteau have launched would be great on a wide and shallow hull platform with the keel raised.
> 
> I don't know the weight it would add to the saildrive system, probably a few hundred Kg's, ???, but that would give you a pivot point at the bottom of the motor and make the boat very maneuverable.
> 
> With the dual rudder, you can't count on prop wash for direction, so I think the key is just maintaining forward motion and than hitting reverse once the final trajectory is set. Practice makes perfect and the good thing is the inertia isn't so bad that you can't slow it down quickly.
> 
> It's a trade-off I'd gladly make to be able to approach the beach so closely and get into those holes the larger boats can't access. That's a huge asset (at least in the Med) in the summer-time.


The "Dock and Go" system looks very smart indeed. I don't know what the extra weight would be and only time will tell if this quite elaborated technology will also prove to be reliable on the long term.

Meanwhile, as in sailing, practise will certainly help us out with docking. Ours will certainly start with your good advise: sufficient speed to stay in control, before stopping off and manually take care of the details.

A very deep centre of gravity when sailing, plus the ability to reach all but the shallowest places, probably don't come without a price. A lot of exercise and some extra fenders?

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Este 40 movie*

Hey Guys, do you know the Italian Pogo? I mean the Este 40?

4500kg of weight, 1600Kg of ballast on a 3m deep bulb (that can be raised to 1.6M) and 115M2 of sail will make it a very fast boat.

The interiors are a bit crude, but I would have no problem in upgrading them in a very light, effective and inexpensive way. The layout is interesting...and the boat has doors

Take a look:
































































Scheda tecnica barca: Este Class 40

http://www2.solovela.net/immagini/pdfintegrale/04/F_SV79_Este40_I.pdf


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> Hey Guys, do you know the Italian Pogo? I mean the Este 40?
> 
> 4500kg of weight, 1600Kg of ballast on a 3m deep bulb (that can be raised to 1.6M) and 115M2 of sail will make it a very fast boat.
> 
> The interiors are a bit crude, but I would have no problem in upgrading them in a very light, effective and inexpensive way. The layout is interesting...and the boat has doors
> 
> Take a look:
> 
> That boat reminds me of my old Alfa Romeo. Looks sexy on the outside but once you have to live with it is is a huge PIA...
> 
> I'm sure it goes well, but the interior layout is a mess and the boat is really a race boat with some fixtures as opposed to a racer/cruiser. Just my opinion of course and I'd still love to sail one for a long weekend.


----------



## EricKLYC

bb74 said:


> PCP said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Guys, do you know the Italian Pogo? I mean the Este 40?
> 
> 4500kg of weight, 1600Kg of ballast on a 3m deep bulb (that can be raised to 1.6M) and 115M2 of sail will make it a very fast boat.
> 
> The interiors are a bit crude, but I would have no problem in upgrading them in a very light, effective and inexpensive way. The layout is interesting...and the boat has doors
> 
> Take a look:
> 
> That boat reminds me of my old Alfa Romeo. Looks sexy on the outside but once you have to live with it is is a huge PIA...
> 
> I'm sure it goes well, but the interior layout is a mess and the boat is really a race boat with some fixtures as opposed to a racer/cruiser. Just my opinion of course and I'd still love to sail one for a long weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> Especially from astern, this Este 40 could easily be mistaken for a Pogo 40, both clearly designed to take maximum advantage of the class 40 box rule. And the figures certainly are impressive!
> 
> But I also agree that the interior does not look convincing and probably would need a rebuild to make it work, either for racing or cruising. It seems as if they had a big struggle to get rid of the keelbox and I'm shure the Alfa Romeo was much more stylish.
> Having not raised the topsides a little, the way Structures did when they designed the 12.50 out of the 40S2 hull, they end up with this very high coachroof, which is also not my taste.
> 
> But no doubt this yacht will be one of the very fastest 40 footers on the market. So I'd be happy to join for a short sail!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Eric
Click to expand...


----------



## PCP

*Este 40 cruising 40class racer*



EricKLYC said:


> Especially from astern, this Este 40 could easily be mistaken for a Pogo 40, both clearly designed to take maximum advantage of the class 40 box rule. And the figures certainly are impressive!
> 
> But I also agree that the interior does not look convincing and probably would need a rebuild to make it work, either for racing or cruising. It seems as if they had a big struggle to get rid of the keelbox and I'm shure the Alfa Romeo was much more stylish.
> Having not raised the topsides a little, the way Structures did when they designed the 12.50 out of the 40S2 hull, they end up with this very high coachroof, which is also not my taste.
> 
> But no doubt this yacht will be one of the very fastest 40 footers on the market. So I'd be happy to join for a short sail!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Eric


Not as bad as you paint it. Fact is that this boat offers 3 cabins with good privacy, a good sea galley (they have not photos but it is described as so on the test from Solo Vela), a chart table were it should be, at the center of the boat, with the engine below the seat on a central position and a spacious saloon.

I would have preferred an open space (saloon/Galley) but I could live better with this solution than with a solution without doors, like on the Pogo. Sure, if that boat is to be used for a couple it would be alright, but for two couples, or for one with grown up kids? And that would be my case.

Yes, BB74 is right. This is a race boat, but also one that has everything needed to cruise (with privacy) and a reduced draft. Contrary to the Pogo 12.50 the Este 40 is a boat that can race on the 40class without being ridiculous (was won already some races). It's a true dual purpose Ocean fast boat.

Call me crazy but if they offer me the two boats to chose I would have taken the Este 40. I wouldn't resist to race the boat occasionally and cruise it most of the time and with a boat like that...I guess that I would cruise to far away places

Of course, all good things come with a price and the one for this baby is substantially bigger that the one for the Pogo.



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

EricKLYC said:


> Having signed the contract in september 2010, we now look forward to a handover in april ... 2012.


Dear Eric, 
I would be interested to know how are the payment conditions for such a deal. 
How much pre-payment is requested if the lead time is so long and when has the full sum to be paid?
Best Regards,
Ulf


----------



## PCP

*Evosion 35 race*

Guys, do you remember the Vivace 34 that beautiful fast Danish cruiser racer that many liked a lot? As you know they have changed the name for Evosion 34. Well, now they have a 35. Big deal, a 35 after a 34, probably a remake?

Nah! This one has nothing to do with the previous one, at least in spirit. They probably used the same hull, but that's it.

The Vivace 34 weights 4.8T the 35 weights 2.8T with almost half the weight deep down on a bulb. The 35 carries about the same sail has the 34 (and weights almost half): 69m2 upwind, 159m2 downwind.

I am quite sure the Vivace 34 is a fast boat but the 35 should be a rocket 
I bet it is going to be pure sailing pleasure .

They say about the boat and its concept - World class performance cruiser / racer:

Sailing experiences; Build to sail; VO70 / TP52 / Class40 inspired modern fast chines based hull design; Light construction; Basic interior; Large cockpit; Space inside; 7 beds; E-Twist - V4.

For: Weekendcruising, Racing, Distance sailing/Racing, Crew racing and shorthanded sailing/racing. Easy to maintain.

Low weight is faster, low weight is less. Less is faster. Less gives more space. Space to the crew, family, friends. Space to go fast sailing and distance racing with the crew and shorthanded. Therefor EV-35R is designed only with basic interior, without interior that makes the boat heavier and slower. Without heavy interior to destroy the true sailing experience. What more could you want?

EV-35R is designet as a very fast weekendcruiser / racer. Designed light - 2800 kg. A chines based modern VO70 / TP52 / Class40 inspired fast hull, with as little resistance as possible. Both the hull and the rigging with the E-twist. Made to sail as fast as possible, even upwind. Open, light interior and lot of space. 7 beds, lockers, toilet, galley and technique / chart table. Beds are designed, also to sleep to the windward side when sailing. The cockpit is made flexible, seats can be turned into a giant sunbed at 2.05 x 1.8 m. Perfect for day cruising, and summer days. Cockpitttet has 12 seats, enough space for party and crew racing. A boat designed to be sailed and used. Space for the entire crew, both in the cockpit and the cabin.

http://www.evosion.dk/wp-content/uploads/EV-34R-sailplan1.png

EVOSION » EVOSION 35 â€" Race
































































And one of the best things about this boat: *PRICE*

Introduction price: 64.990 € + VAT.

I really don't know how it is possible to make a high-tech 35ft for 65 000 €, but it seems a lot of boat and a lot of pleasure for the money

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Not as bad as you paint it. Fact is that this boat offers 3 cabins with good privacy, a good sea galley (they have not photos but it is described as so on the test from Solo Vela), a chart table were it should be, at the center of the boat, with the engine below the seat on a central position and a spacious saloon.
> 
> I would have preferred an open space (saloon/Galley) but I could live better with this solution than with a solution without doors, like on the Pogo. Sure, if that boat is to be used for a couple it would be alright, but for two couples, or for one with grown up kids? And that would be my case.
> 
> Yes, BB74 is right. This is a race boat, but also one that has everything needed to cruise (with privacy) and a reduced draft. Contrary to the Pogo 12.50 the Este 40 is a boat that can race on the 40class without being ridiculous (was won already some races). It's a true dual purpose Ocean fast boat.
> 
> Call me crazy but if they offer me the two boats to chose I would have taken the Este 40. I wouldn't resist to race the boat occasionally and cruise it most of the time and with a boat like that...I guess that I would cruise to far away places
> 
> Of course, all good things come with a price and the one for this baby is substantially bigger that the one for the Pogo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


_"De gustibus non est disputandum." This interior is very atypical and since my wife is quite happy with the already very minimalistic but otherwise classical one of the 12.50, I don't think I should push my luck and try something like the Este 40. As the French say: "Ce que femme veut, Dieu veut!" 
And I also think it would be only a small job to fit two more doors in the 12.50  .

But if you also would like to race even occasionally within the Class 40 fleet (handicap racing is probably no option with any of these boats), the Este is certainly first choice. In this respect, it is rather something in between the Pogo's 12.50 and 40S2 (ultra light weight, torpedo keel, water ballasts, "casquette" with dedicated watch positions in the cockpit) and this probably also explains the higher price.

Best regards,

Eric_


----------



## EricKLYC

myocean said:


> Dear Eric,
> I would be interested to know how are the payment conditions for such a deal.
> How much pre-payment is requested if the lead time is so long and when has the full sum to be paid?
> Best Regards,
> Ulf


It' quite straightforward, Ulf. 
The next available hull number is reserved after a pre-payment of around 4%, which is almost fully refundable until six months before they start building the boat. Then follow fractional payments, with the last 30% due on delivery.

To be honest, I must somewhat clarify the delivery in april 2012. We could already have the boat around november this year. I certainly don't mind a winter sailing trip, but we prefer not to spend two weeks test-cruising in Brittany and then sail the boat back to Belgium in december. After all, we're cruisers...

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> The Vivace 34 weights 4.8T the 35 weights 2.8T with almost half the weight deep down on a bulb. The 35 carries about the same sail has the 34 (and weights almost half): 69m2 upwind, 159m2 downwind.
> 
> I am quite sure the Vivace 34 is a fast boat but the 35 should be a rocket
> I bet it is going to be pure sailing pleasure .
> 
> And one of the best things about this boat: *PRICE*
> 
> Introduction price: 64.990 € + VAT.
> 
> I really don't know how it is possible to make a high-tech 35ft for 65 000 €, but it seems a lot of boat and a lot of pleasure for the money
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The Vivace 35 just looks fantastic, also inside! But mind the doors, Paulo  .
And the price is indeed incredible. Even with an long option list, it should be able to compete with any other 35 footer and I don't know any with this speed potential. 
Do they also come in 40 feet with a retractable keel  ?

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 12.50 / Este 40*



EricKLYC said:


> ... _"Ce que femme veut, Dieu veut!"_


   that's hard to beat that, I mean, God's will



EricKLYC said:


> But if you also would like to race even occasionally within the Class 40 fleet (handicap racing is probably no option with any of these boats), the Este is certainly first choice. * In this respect, it is rather something in between the Pogo's 12.50 and 40S2* (ultra light weight, torpedo keel, water ballasts, "casquette" with dedicated watch positions in the cockpit) and this probably also explains the higher price.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Not in between the 12.50 and the 40S2 (the racing Pogo class 40). This boat has the same weight, the same water ballast and can carry as much sail as the 40S2. It would be like a 40S2 with a cruising interior and with a bulbed keel that can be raised from 3.00m to 1.5m.

The boat is really a racing boat with a reasonable cruising interior and the amazing thing is that even with that cruising interior and with the hydraulics to lift the keel, it has the same weight as the racing Pogo.

I agree with you that it would not be hard to put some doors on the Pogo and I am surprised your wife has not demanded that . I also agree, that the Pogo interior is more agreeable but as you have said, the Este has the need to raise the keel (that is more performance oriented than the one on the 12.50) and that has probably conditioned all the interior layout.

I even like more the outside looks of the Pogo, but the Este 40 is another animal: A truly racing machine with a reasonable cruising interior, a boat that you can race and cruise, it is hard to beat at least for the ones that would like to race (even if occasionally) and cruise.

The boat has been raced with success:

The boat won the 2009 Round Sardinia race

Rolex Middle Sea Race

On the Cetacei Regatta (160nm) finished second overall (First in class), only narrowly beaten by a Cookson 50 and leaving behind a Pogo 40 and a lot of bigger boats.

Un nuevo éxito de Balance-AN El Este Class 40 gana la clase y logra un segundo absoluto / Barcos a Vela / Náutica / Portada - masmar

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

EricKLYC said:


> It' quite straightforward, Ulf.
> The next available hull number is reserved after a pre-payment of around 4%, which is almost fully refundable until six months before they start building the boat. Then follow fractional payments, with the last 30% due on delivery.
> 
> To be honest, I must somewhat clarify the delivery in april 2012. We could already have the boat around november this year. I certainly don't mind a winter sailing trip, but we prefer not to spend two weeks test-cruising in Brittany and then sail the boat back to Belgium in december. After all, we're cruisers...
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Structures is pretty open (in my discussions with them), on finding that slot for the delivery date. On the 10.50, when I last spoke with them, there were a few slots that could have been available before the full 2 1/2 year wait list as some (a few) buyers wouldn't mind postponing delivery due to various reasons. I'm not sure if this is still the case because it's been a few months since I've spoke with them but I would imagine there are slots in well under 2 years.


----------



## panthene

*Azuree 33*



PCP said:


> Hi there, welcome to the thread


Thank you very much for your feedback and analysis. I am indeed thinking of the fast cruiser version. If I buy it, I will share pictures and experience.

Best regards and many thanks,


----------



## PCP

*Azuree 33 movie*



panthene said:


> Thank you very much for your feedback and analysis. I am indeed thinking of the fast cruiser version. If I buy it, I will share pictures and experience.
> 
> Best regards and many thanks,


We will be waiting . The Azuree 33 seems to be a great boat with a fantastic interior at a good price. I would love to hear your comments on the boat, after all you have probably been inside one.

That interior is just as good as it looks on the photos?

Do you have already sailed one? What are your impressions?











Regards

Paulo


----------



## slap

Melrna has posted a review of the Jeanneau 409 in the "2011 Miami Boatshow" thread. A must read for anyone interested in one.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/71790-2011-miami-boat-show-2.html#post701859


----------



## panthene

*Azuree 33*

Hi, As I do not have anything other than a layman's point of view, I am rather reluctant to comment, but here's my point of view...

I have sailed the cruiser version, but as there was very light wind, it really did not give me a view of what's possible. The boat moved well though, with even a very light wind and was responsive. The helm is really precise, but this is the only 2 rudder boat that I have tried..

The interior is really nice and looks better in real life. I preferred it to the Elan 350, which is the other one I was considering. Good design throughout -- lots of thought has gone into the usability and the look. Compared to other boats within the same price range, the interior quality is really impressive.

I like the fact that it was designed for shorthanded sailing -- gives you freedom while cruising. Again, from a cruising standpoint, the table that comes out of the cockpit is a nice touch.

Best regards,



PCP said:


> We will be waiting . The Azuree 33 seems to be a great boat with a fantastic interior at a good price. I would love to hear your comments on the boat, after all you have probably been inside one.
> 
> That interior is just as good as it looks on the photos?
> 
> Do you have already sailed one? What are your impressions?
> 
> YouTube - Azuree 33 - La prova in mare di SoloVela
> 
> YouTube - Prova Azuree 33
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


----------



## PCP

slap said:


> Melrna has posted a review of the Jeanneau 409 in the "2011 Miami Boatshow" thread. A must read for anyone interested in one.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/71790-2011-miami-boat-show-2.html#post701859


Hi Slap,

Take a look here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-.../71790-2011-miami-boat-show-3.html#post702305

I had commented the Melrna post on the Jeanneau 409.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau SO 409, 135nm boat test*



















Last edition of Voile & voiliers has a nice test sail on the Jeanneau 409. A delivery passage between the coast of Spain and the Balearic Islands, with winds from 0 to 30K and seas from calm to stormy.

On the boat, the tester and Erik Stromberg. I believe this American that works for Jeanneau should be credited with a large part of the boat success. Many times there are a big hole between the designer and the guys that produce the boat. Not in this case, Erik has worked on the boat rigging in close liaison with the designer and has sailed extensively the boat trying to improve it. He is a sailor that likes to sail and you can feel it on the boat. I have talked to him in Paris and I was impressed with is knowledge but also with is oppen personality and modesty. A very nice guy

I am not going to talk about the boat interior, design and quality, that has been vastly addressed and anyway you can form easily your opinion in any boat show. I am only referring here to its sail performance. In this case it is specially interesting because the boat tested was the performance rig version.

The boat is designed to be completely controlled from the helm. Only one winch there at each whell), but also three blocks that permits to change the sheet that is in the winch. German sheeting brings the boom control there also. The boat can come with a self-taking jib.

The tester says about this (translated):

" All the work and tunning can be done from the wheel, but you have to change habits and adapt to the new set up, but we want to adapt because the Jeanneau 409 is a real pleasure at the wheel. The position is comfortable and we have a very good foot support. It has not the precision of a racer but the boat passes softly the short med waves and the powerful hull is easily controlled".

And about sailing performance:

"Even with short waves, going upwind, with gusty winds of 25/30K the boat goes safely without fearing anything at 8/9K, genoa rolled to 2/3 and with 2 reefs on the main".

Later, approaching Palma de Maiorca they can open the sails a bit and:

"With 15k wind we have fun going at 10k and sometimes over (10.9). Who says that a family cruiser has to be slow?".

They have observed this speeds:

*14ktw 45º = 8k speed

15ktw 70º = 9K

19Ktw 150º = 10.6K*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## TJMAC

Amazing thread!!! Seriously planning a three year "sabbatical" cruising the Med, crossing the pond at the appropriate times and where ever else I may wish to go. My experience is somewhat limited at the moment, but I will be joined by a rotating group of friends with more than adequate skills and I'm sure my own sailing prowess will be greatly advanced with time so a yacht that is designed for single handing is paramount. My question is the following- Of these which is the wisest choice?(Paulo,your input would be fantastic!) Akilaria 950, Pogo 10.50, Sunfast 3200 and my fav, Elan 350. Speed, safety, living aboard for months at a time and the ability to be sailed single handed or with a small crew are of the most important factors. Budget is around $200k US, setting sail by early summer of next year. Thank you in advance. 
Best Regards,
Todd


----------



## PCP

TJMAC said:


> Amazing thread!!! Seriously planning a three year "sabbatical" cruising the Med, crossing the pond at the appropriate times and where ever else I may wish to go. My experience is somewhat limited at the moment, but I will be joined by a rotating group of friends with more than adequate skills and I'm sure my own sailing prowess will be greatly advanced with time so a yacht that is designed for single handing is paramount. My question is the following- Of these which is the wisest choice?(Paulo,your input would be fantastic!) Akilaria 950, Pogo 10.50, Sunfast 3200 and my fav, Elan 350. Speed, safety, living aboard for months at a time and the ability to be sailed single handed or with a small crew are of the most important factors. Budget is around $200k US, setting sail by early summer of next year. Thank you in advance.
> Best Regards,
> Todd


Welcome Todd and thanks for your kind words.

Those are all great and fast boats but also very different. The Akilaria 950 is the one to have for racing. It has a very spartan interior and if you put all the things you need for cruising it is going to be expensive.

Akilaria 9.50 : fiche technique et caractéristiques détaillées

The Pogo 10.50 is very interesting but it is also expensive and has a long waiting list. It is a bit less spartan than the Akilaria.

The Sun fast 3200 is also spartan and between it and the Elan 350 I would chose the Elan.

The Elan 350 has a great cruising interior and it is not as expensive. I would say that is the most wise choice, but boats and sailing are a passion and not a rational thing .

If I understand correctly you want to cruise, have fun while sailing, have some friends on board as a crew, or sail solo sometimes and have the minimum that is needed to cruise with some comfort. Not a wife and kids thing, and the interior should be functional comfortable but not "nice"? You are not interested in serious racing and ratings. Just want a really fast seaworthy and fun boat capable of cruising on the Med and cross the pond?

Well, I would chose a really fast cruiser that is not competitive anymore at top level racing (and that's why you can have them for not too much money) but that would be faster and less expensive that any of those boats. I would use the rest of the money to prepare the boat for cruising and to spend while cruising. When you want to sell the boat you would also lose less money than with a new boat.

I would look at the "old" generation of A40. They are better rigged for solo sailing than the new ones. Take a look at the huge difference in prices between old generation A40 and the new ones. That's because the new ones are more competitive for racing, not because there is a big difference between the boats

Archambault boats for sale - New and Used Archambault for sale























































Segelschule Weber Berlin. Die sportliche Segelschule Berlin

Archambault 40 - New Archambault yachts for sale

A 40 ARCHAMBAULT | Veleiros de ocasiÃ£o

ARCHAMBAULT 40 | Veleiros de ocasiÃ£o

Regards

Paulo


----------



## islandskipper23

beautiful


----------



## TJMAC

Paulo, you don't disappoint! You were right in your assumptions of what I'm looking for nearly across the board. I would say that I am very partial to twin rudders and prefer a tiller( or twins), but could more than live with the Elan 350 set up. When you stated adding a large cost to refit the Akilaria, what else would be required other than what is considered "sail away ready"(electronics included)? I agree it is Spartan, but although I have yet to sail one, it looks pretty well suited to 2 or 3 adults for extended time aboard. I agree on the Pogo 10.50 -beautiful but a bit of a white elephant. The A40 is very nice, but I question if it may be a bit too large? From your previous posts, I see that you are a big fan of the Elan 350 as well. I have seen more than a few listed as "sail away ready" for sub $200k, but again is that lacking in necessary equipment? Essentially what I'm asking is what would you look for if you were in your early 30's, single without children and had 2 or 3 years to sail as much as you wish where ever you wish? Thank you!
Best Regards,
Todd


----------



## bb74

TJMAC said:


> Paulo, you don't disappoint! You were right in your assumptions of what I'm looking for nearly across the board. I would say that I am very partial to twin rudders and prefer a tiller( or twins), but could more than live with the Elan 350 set up. When you stated adding a large cost to refit the Akilaria, what else would be required other than what is considered "sail away ready"(electronics included)? I agree it is Spartan, but although I have yet to sail one, it looks pretty well suited to 2 or 3 adults for extended time aboard. I agree on the Pogo 10.50 -beautiful but a bit of a white elephant. The A40 is very nice, but I question if it may be a bit too large? From your previous posts, I see that you are a big fan of the Elan 350 as well. I have seen more than a few listed as "sail away ready" for sub $200k, but again is that lacking in necessary equipment? Essentially what I'm asking is what would you look for if you were in your early 30's, single without children and had 2 or 3 years to sail as much as you wish where ever you wish? Thank you!
> Best Regards,
> Todd


First of all, I have my preference for the boats you outlined but I won't go there.

You should think about seasons and weather / temps you want to be sailing, moored, anchored or docked at. This will have a bearing on the creature comforts and interiors you should be looking for.

2nd, I'd suggest thinking about where you want to cruise - little if any tide swing in the Med, different elsewhere. Do you need a boat that can beach or are you fine anchoring a half mile off the beach ;-).

3rd, how many days / weeks you plan on going without topping off at the docks?

4th, how may people will join you and what time of comforts are they looking for? It's one thing to be a single bohemian... another to expect all guests to do likewise if you want to see them more than once.

5th, why 3 years? That's a very, VERY long time on a boat for about 99.999% of the world population. If it is 3 years non-stop, day in and day out, I'd suggest going with a "comfortable pair of shoes" as opposed to those pocket rockets. A nice compromise is the RM 1050 as has been seen previously on this thread. Other cruisers will give more comfort for the day to day that is more than a "nice to have" after a few months non-stop.

On the boats listed, you have a 2X price differential. Can pick up a very good condition SF2300 for around 75K€ ready to sail. An Elan, Akilaria, or JPK (960) for mid 150K€'s ready to sail, or a Pogo 10.50 but not under 200K€ ready to go outfitted with what you need to do what you're planning on doing. There is no used market for the 10.50 now as owners like them too much. There is the A35 which is a smaller version of the A40. It is a fast, light boat that works well everywhere, but I wouldn't want to live on it for more than a few weeks max. I haven't been on an A40, but the interior looks the same and again, not something I'd initially look to "live" in. The A's do have amazingly light feel on the rudder and are fast, very well built boats (I've races the GS and A31) but they aren't live-aboards in my opinion.

Everything's a compromise so take 20K of your 200K budget and rent for a week the target boats you're looking at and I'm sure you'll find something that works for you.

Good luck and see you out there in the Med some day!


----------



## PCP

TJMAC said:


> Paulo, you don't disappoint! You were right in your assumptions of what I'm looking for nearly across the board. I would say that I am very partial to twin rudders and prefer a tiller( or twins), but could more than live with the Elan 350 set up. When you stated adding a large cost to refit the Akilaria, what else would be required other than what is considered "sail away ready"(electronics included)? I agree it is Spartan, but although I have yet to sail one, it looks pretty well suited to 2 or 3 adults for extended time aboard. I agree on the Pogo 10.50 -beautiful but a bit of a white elephant. The A40 is very nice, but I question if it may be a bit too large? From your previous posts, I see that you are a big fan of the Elan 350 as well. I have seen more than a few listed as "sail away ready" for sub $200k, but again is that lacking in necessary equipment? Essentially what I'm asking is what would you look for if you were in your early 30's, single without children and had 2 or 3 years to sail as much as you wish where ever you wish? Thank you!
> Best Regards,
> Todd


Todd, I bet that the Akilaria, ready to cruise extensively and ready to cross the pond will cost more 40% than the 98 500€ that are advertised. I am not saying the boat is expensive, it is not, for the performance and overall quality. But I am not talking about the interior. Some years back I had been inside one of the first Akilaria and the cruising version was really spartan. Compared with it the Pogo interior looks very nice and comfortable

The Elan 350 has a much more comfortable interior, one where I could live for extended periods (and I am a lot older than you) but the boat fully equipped is a lot more expensive than its basic price. If you want send me an email (by private message) and I can send you the list of extras with all the prices. Count with 40 000€ or more on extras.

I have already told you what boat I would have chosen, this one:

Andrés Durán, Brokerage & Yachtservice

Fact is that if I didn't had a wife I would seriously consider that one right now. It is fully equipped for extensive cruising (Radar, plotter, Webasto heating, watermaker, and a lot of good sails) it's a 2006 boat and costs 72000€!!!!

I almost regret to have a wife

The new A40, fully equipped like this one would cost 250 000€ or more

I don't understand why you say the A40 is too big. The boat has a huge cockpit but the inside is small. The boat weights less than 6000kg and a big Ballast/Displacement ratio makes it a boat that forgives mistakes. Its rigging is perfect for solo sailing. Its extended waterline and contained beam makes it very fast and comfortable upwind and downwind its lightweight and planning hull makes easy two digit speeds.

When you cruise extensively or when making a passage you will need to carry a non negligible load and the extra length of this boat makes it possible to carry that load without affecting too much the boat performance. The same load on one of the smaller boats will have a much bigger impact on the performance. Besides this A40 is much faster than any of the other boats you have mentioned and a lot cheaper

Off course, it has the disadvantage of the big draft (2.47) but with that performance, with that equipment and for that price...well, you can't have everything and I would have accepted the limitations that a big draft brings to cruising. On the Med you can live with it, I mean, a 2.5m draft.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> First of all, I have my preference for the boats you outlined but I won't go there.......
> I'd suggest thinking about where you want to cruise - little if any tide swing in the Med, different elsewhere. Do you need a boat that can beach or are you fine anchoring a half mile off the beach ;-).


     

Not your preferences

I agree with you if the cruising grounds where in Brittany or the west coast of England, but on the Med with 2.5m you would not have big problems. My old boat had about 2m draft and on the Med I stayed on the 2.5m line and I was normally among the boats closer to the beach. You could not go closer because of the buoys that delimited the swim area. With a 2.5M draft you would stay 40m more distant from the beach.



bb74 said:


> There is the A35 which is a smaller version of the A40. It is a fast, light boat that works well everywhere, but I wouldn't want to live on it for more than a few weeks max. I haven't been on an A40, but the interior looks the same and again, not something I'd initially look to "live" in. The A's do have amazingly light feel on the rudder and are fast, very well built boats (I've races the GS and A31) but they aren't live-aboards in my opinion.
> ..


I agree that the A35 has not the interior space for cruising extensively with some comfort, but as you know it is one of the boats that have won the Transquadra (a Transat solo, or duo). Last one on the duo category was won by a A35 and that means that two guys crossed the pond on it .

The A40 is another history, the interior is big enough and comfortable enough for 2 or 3 guys to cruise extensively. The only weak spot is the galley that is really small, but guys don't normally waste a lot of time cooking and I guess that would be enough for most. At least when I was 30 I used to cruise extensively (two months) in a boat that was a lot less equipped.

I am talking about the old A40, because the new A40 has a good galley and a even better saloon. Really cozy. Probably if I could I would have one. It is just the perfect sailing boat, in what concerns performance. The interior is big enough for me (about the Elan 350 size) . I have talked to them and they even would put me two rudders on the boat and a smaller draft (2.2m) with a bulb. But it was just too expensive

Regarding prices, Todd seems to be American and that means he does not have to pay about 20% European Taxes. I am sure he would pay less.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*A 40rc movie*

Curiously I have not posted yet about the new Archambault 40rc (A40rc). we have posted and talked about the A35 but not about its bigger sister.

I guess that is because I like it a lot and I cannot have one .Too expensive. These boats are made in a small factory by 36 guys that love their work and make it just perfect.

If you want they will modify the boat the way you wanted. I asked for two rudders (for better downwind control on solo sailing) and a bulbed keel (they have a non bulbed keel to maximize IRC rating) with 2.20m draft for cruising and they have said immediately: No problem.

Well, the problem was the price. Not that this boat does not deserve the money it costs, but it is a really top performer and that does not came cheap. Well, it is less expensive than a J 122, but the J is also an expensive boat. This one is just a bit more expensive than a Dufour 40e, for instance.

As I have said the boat has a huge cockpit is SEXY, very fast and offers an amazingly good cruising interior for a boat that can be raced with success at top level. Because it has such a big cockpit, I would say that offers the same interior space of an Elan 350, maybe a bit more, but not much. The interior is of very good quality, well made, harm and cozy. A real nice boat. Not a problem for a couple to live on one for considerable periods of time.

The boat was tested among other magazines by Cruising world. Odd, a Cruising boat magazine testing a really sharp contender and do you now what they have said?:

The model year 2009 appears to be a very good one for performance cruisers with the potential to wreak havoc on a racecourse. ....

Once the sails are up, however, it all translates into breathtaking moments. We sailed the A40RC on a moderate day with winds ranging through 8 to 12 knots. Upwind, in the puffs, we registered an extremely closewinded 8 knots and, once the very able crew of four had the large spinnaker up and flying, lovely bursts into the mid-9-knot province.

Surprisingly, the A40 has a much cozier, more workable accommodation plan than one might expect, with twin doubles aft that also feature the best adjustable pipe berths on any boat introduced this year. *They would be good for coastal sailing and even better for an offshore-racing crew.* The only problem? You might never want the race to end.
Archambault A40 RC: A Mini Review | Cruising World

Surprise:They find it good for cruising. I didn't know that on Cruising World they liked that kind of boat for cruising

Archambault A40RC yacht



















































































































Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

tjmac/todd,

Are you looking at getting rid of "about time"? An SF3200 would keep you in the same brand of boats..............

Marty


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## TJMAC

> tjmac/todd,
> 
> Are you looking at getting rid of "about time"? An SF3200 would keep you in the same brand of boats..............
> 
> Marty


Marty, I'm not clear as to what you mean? 
Paulo & bb74- amazing! Thank you!I will have to send you the address of the dealer I buy from so that you may collect your commission! What you wrote made perfect sense. Faster, more storage space, less expensive and I'm assuming slightly more "seaworthy" due to the extra size and displacement. I am having a little difficulty find specifics on the "old generation" of A40's. I have seen plenty for sale, but hard to find reviews and prints. I am writing from the US and have always planned on making my purchase in Europe, so would I be exempt from VAT? Any recommendations as to the best place to test sail an older A40(along with a few newer models such as the Elan 350, etc just to feel the difference)?


> You should think about seasons and weather / temps you want to be sailing, moored, anchored or docked at. This will have a bearing on the creature comforts and interiors you should be looking for.
> 
> 2nd, I'd suggest thinking about where you want to cruise - little if any tide swing in the Med, different elsewhere. Do you need a boat that can beach or are you fine anchoring a half mile off the beach ;-).
> 
> 3rd, how many days / weeks you plan on going without topping off at the docks?
> 
> 4th, how may people will join you and what time of comforts are they looking for? It's one thing to be a single bohemian... another to expect all guests to do likewise if you want to see them more than once.
> 
> 5th, why 3 years? That's a very, VERY long time on a boat for about 99.999% of the world population. If it is 3 years non-stop, day in and day out, I'd suggest going with a "comfortable pair of shoes" as opposed to those pocket rockets. A nice compromise is the RM 1050 as has been seen previously on this thread. Other cruisers will give more comfort for the day to day that is more than a "nice to have" after a few months non-stop.


1. I would hope to stay in warmer climates and follow the routes and weather timetables outlined in Jimmy Cornell's books. 2. I'm planning on situations such as this- Have a friend meet me in an Italian port, cruise for a week or so, drop him or her off then sail solo to say, St. Tropez, meet another friend and repeat the process.When the winds are right, sail from the Med across to Fla for the winter to see family and hopefully explore the Caribbean. Your point about not expecting the same utilitarian outlook from others is a great one I had not really considered. Why three years? It was a number that I felt would allow me to see as much of the world as possible before I embarked on the next phase of my life and start another business venture. Everything is fluid, nothing set in stone. Having flexibility is very much the whole point of what I am planning and working for. If I grow weary of the plan, cash out early. If I am having a blast, feel more and more confident in my seamanship and meet a 23 year old French model that wants to join me, I can extend my plans. Find the best yacht for my needs, tie up all loose ends, make a few smart(and safe) investments and earn passive income for awhile before I need to make a permanent decision as to what's next. "You can't change your plans unless you have one"- Gladwell
Thank you!
Best Regards,
Todd


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## blt2ski

tjmac,

You are not who I thought you are.......ie a Todd I know with a CB version of a Jeanneau Arcadia in the cheasapeak area, named "About Time" or are you?

marty


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## TJMAC

> tjmac,
> 
> You are not who I thought you are.......ie a Todd I know with a CB version of a Jeanneau Arcadia in the cheasapeak area, named "About Time" or are you?


 Sorry, not me. 
Really liking the A40, seems like a great fit. My only concerns are-1. there are a lot for sale. Can be an indicator of some fault or defect. 2. Huge price discrepancies between boats of similar years and equipment? A certain broker has ten A40's for sale made between 2004-2006 with a low of $90,000 to a high of $176,000. That's a pretty large curve. Nearly any other yacht of the same category are within a 10-15% spread. 
Best Regards,
Todd


----------



## PCP

TJMAC said:


> ..
> Really liking the A40, seems like a great fit. My only concerns are-1. there are a lot for sale. Can be an indicator of some fault or defect. 2. Huge price discrepancies between boats of similar years and equipment? A certain broker has ten A40's for sale made between 2004-2006 with a low of $90,000 to a high of $176,000. That's a pretty large curve. Nearly any other yacht of the same category are within a 10-15% spread.
> Best Regards,
> Todd


I have already told you why. The ones that are asking a big price are asking a normal price taking into account the age of the boat and the price they have paid. The ones that are asking low prices are following the market rules: No much demand on that boat and lots of them for selling.

Most of the boats were bought for racing at top level and the boat is not competitive anymore regarding the new A40rc and other fast boats.

The new A40rc is really a top performer an Archambault costumers are normally top sailors:

San Francisco Sailmakers - - UK-Halsey Lofts Worldwide

The boat has not a great Galley (its divided in two different zones) with the settee in between and the interior is functional but not very nice. Not a favorite boat for most cruisers and as I have said the boat was sold in large numbers and the offer is much bigger than the demand.

I don't know of any other reason.

You forget about this one, that is the one with more equipment and also one of the least expensive (72000€):

Andrés Durán, Brokerage & Yachtservice

This guy is a dealer specialized in buying boats to the banks, from people that stop paying their leasing.

Regards

Paulo


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## TJMAC

Thank you Paulo. From what I understand the new A40rc is only about .5 knots faster than the first generation A40's along with a different layout. Insane that for such a marginal difference a 5 year old A40 is almost obsolete! As far as the broker's link you posted, I most certainly didn't forget. A situation of buying an item that I want far below it's true value is the only way I shop or do business. Thanks!


----------



## PCP

*Walkabout*

Hey Guys,

For the ones that want a boat that has a class 40 as a model, but is really adapted to long distance cruising, have a look at the Walkabout 43. The boat is beautiful, looks expensive and custom, but that is not the case, I mean expensive, for what they offer.

The story of the boat begins like this:

"After 4 years of circum-navigation of the globe we started searching for the ideal boat that would fit those characteristics result not only from our experience, but also from tips and considerations of those who sailed along. Not finding any suitable boats on the market we asked David Reard, a french naval architect, to design it. For the realization then, convinced of the validity of the project, we established a boatyard where has been carried out all stages of construction. The Walkabout 43 N ° 1 was launched in late July 2010"

The numerous requests for information and advice about sailing the high seas and the desire to allow others people to live the wonderful experiences of around the world cruising, have pushed Lorenzo Leonello and Annalisa De Cesare to found a boatyard for the construction of sailboats suited to sailing the high seas.

A challenging goal, which has found support in the technical skills of French designer David Reard. Born from the pencil (or rather from CAD) by David Reard, Walkabout 43, is robust and secure, she is a boat capable of ensuring tranquility during the more difficult navigation.

Sandwich construction with epoxy ensures both strength and light displacement. Light displacement and innovative water lines inspired by oceanic regatta boats give excellent performances with any condition of the sea and wind as those which reserve long oceans cruising. Think about do an ocean crossing in half the time!!

But speed doesn't mean only shorten distances but also increasing security. The great stability which give the shapes allows not only to increase the power but also to require less frequent changes of sails or reductions than the standard production boats. Stability combined with the simplicity of manoeuvres allow to sail the boat alone or in couple.

The large beam and the sleek design of the deckhouse stretched towards the bow offers the habitability of boats of larger sizes.

Spacious interiors designed for comfort and convenience of life on board. Great attention not just looking for the functionality, but also to the aesthetics of furniture that doesn't save precious woods. Porthole and hatches are chosen with security in mind in navigation and to life on board in the tropics where you need a good ventilation.

Pleasant life inside, but especially outside where a wide cockpit allows you to host a large crew and trasform into a terrace on the sea during stops in anchorage or marina for convivial moments with friends and relax in the Sun.

The technical solutions chosen for the systems and equipment are the best that the market can offer to withstand the intense use that a life aboard can reserve.

Well, I have to say that the boat really looks good and practical to me and I am sure it is a fast boat that can make extensive cruising a pleasure.

Walkabout Yachts

What do you say guys?














































*They are also proposing a full line of "Walkabouts":*

*The 37*










*The 40*










Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

This is astonishing!
Looks really like quite interesting bluewater boats! And they are indeed very light.
I wonder if they are really fast in real life. Which speed can be expected? As discussed before the payload could be the cruicial point. However, even if not really fast, you would still have a nicely optimized design for a circumnavigation! May be better than an RM.
And, of course, I like the two tillers which leave more living space when mooring.
Ulf


----------



## PCP

*Walkabout*



myocean said:


> This is astonishing!
> Looks really like quite interesting bluewater boats! And they are indeed very light.
> I wonder if they are really fast in real life. Which speed can be expected? As discussed before the payload could be the cruicial point. However, even if not really fast, you would still have a nicely optimized design for a circumnavigation! May be better than an RM.
> And, of course, I like the two tillers which leave more living space when mooring.
> Ulf


Hi Ulf,

No, this boat is much faster than the RM 1350.

This boat weights with its Max load less than the RM empty. This is more like a Pogo designed to circumnavigate.

Take a look at this numbers:

Lenght Overall 
13.68 m
Hull Lenght
12,99 m
Lenght at Waterline	12.70 m
Maximum Beam	4,50 m
Draught	2,15 m
Keel weight	3200kg
Light Displacement	7200 kg
Maximum Displacement	9500kg
Maximum load	2300 kg

The most amazing number for me is the Ballast/weight ratio. Truly outstanding and a very good indicator of the boat seaworthiness.

The Max load is in concordance about what I have been saying about the Pogo 12.50 (that is really a 40ft boat). The max load of this boat (all things included, people, tankage, equipments and provisions) is 2300kg.

If we take into consideration the weight of both boats (5.5T and 7.2T) and make a proportion for an equivalent MAX load, the one of Pogo 12.50 would be of 1757 Kg. If we take the weight from tankage ( +-500kg) and the weight for 4 crew and equipment (720kg) the remaining load capacity for spars, tools and provisions would be only 355kg. The same remaining weight on the Walkabout (considering the same tankage) would be of 898kg, that is a more reasonable load for a circumnavigation, or for cruising in far away places.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

Hi Paulo!
Still I would be sceptical about the numbers. From the catamaran world I have learned that especially some small (new) builders tend to present displacement numbers which are far too optimistic (so too low). 
I like to have the true measured weight of such a ship...
And: Who says that the specified payload still guarantees higher speen by planing?

Ulf


----------



## PCP

*walkabout*



myocean said:


> Hi Paulo!
> Still I would be sceptical about the numbers. From the catamaran world I have learned that especially some small (new) builders tend to present displacement numbers which are far too optimistic (so too low).
> I like to have the true measured weight of such a ship...
> And: Who says that the specified payload still guarantees higher speen by planing?
> 
> Ulf


Ulf, this boat is much lighter than the RM. Has to be, the building technique is much more high-tech and lighter:

" To guarantee your safety the solidity of the epoxy composite hull , watertight bulkheads at the bow and stern to prevent sinking in case of collisions.
The construction of the hull is in sandwich with epoxy resin. Inner skin is 10 mm okumè marine grade plywood ; the soul is a closed cell PVC vacuum glued with epoxy resin and the outer skin consists of quadriaxial e-glass fibre laminated with epoxy resin.

The sandwich obtained has 35 mm thickness and in addition to providing great robustness has an excellent thermal and acoustic insulation.

The deckhouse is made of sandwich composed for the internal skin of tissues of biaxial e-glass laminated with epoxy, PVC foam bonded under vacuum with epoxy, and for the outer skin quadriaxial e-glass laminated with epoxy resin under vacuum over male model to get an elegant and self-supporting form .

A technology and quality of materials to ensure solidity and light displacement. 
Junction hull-deck
Unlike the tipical production boats the deck isn't bolted and glued to the hull, but laminated to it so you get a monolithic structure that guarantees maximum resistance to the enormous efforts torsional induced by ocean navigation.

Carbon fibre chainplates laminate on the hull for a maximum resistance with excellent uniformity of materials.
Frame of structural reinforcements in laminated plywood at the bottom of the hull to distribute the efforts of the keel."

Walkabout Yachts

These are building techniques used in some racing boats.

David Read, the designer is a French with lots of experience in using these techniques, in designing fast boats and in following their building. The Bepox series are famous by their qualities among the French.

david reard architecture navale

The walkabout is only slighter heavier than a same sized Pogo, not by the way it's built, but because has an interior heavier and one more adapted to cruising.

The 40ft (that is comparable to the Pogo 12.50) weights a bit more: 6 120kg to 5.500kg. The difference is a lot less than 620kg because the Walkabout has a better Ballast/displacement ratio.

But I guess that you have misunderstood me. I was comparing the Pogo 12.50 with the Walkabout 43. A very naked Pogo costs (fixed keel) 176 000 euros, a walkabout 43 costs 250 000€ (I don't know the level of finish) so there are 70 000€ of difference in price.

What I was saying is that is the size this type of boat should have for extended cruising on far away places, unless is cruised solo or eventually in duo.

Regarding loading capacity what I was saying is that it is very easy to reach the Pogo 12.50 max load and that with its max load the Pogo will have difficulty in planning, but with the same load, the Walkabout 43 is only at half load and will sail and plan better.

That's why they are making a Pogo 50, for the ones that really want to sail to far away places and circumnavigate with some comfort and load.

Voiles et Voiliers : Chantier - Nouveauté : Pogo 50 : Croisière «No limit» !

Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

Yes, that way it becomes reasonable. I was just critical about the blue water real life performance of the 40 ft.


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## PCP

*Salona 41*

New review on the Salona 41. A short one (first impression) on Voile et Voiliers:

they have said:

*"With another circumstances the lack of wind could have penalized another boat. For the Salone 41...it was almost a sales argument: With 4K of wind and with the 140% genoa, the boat was making a steady 4K (wind speed).

... A beautiful boat for the sailors that want a performance boat without the sacrifices of a true racing boat.*"



















And look at the steel grid that distributes the loads from the keel and mast. I have looked at one at the shipyard and it looks really well made. it just adapts perfectly to the hull. That's one of the things that just make this boat stand from the competition. Systems like this are only used by considerably more expensive boats, like the X-Yacht, Luffe or Grand-Soleil.










Look at this characteristics:










With 110m2 for 7.2T of weight, a sharp hull with only 3.84 of beam, it is not surprising that the boat needs only 4K wind to sail. The Ballast/Displacement is also on the good side, a lot better than the one from the Dufour 40e, for instance. The boat has a good capacity diesel tank, but the water one it is not big enough, in my opinion. They offer as an option an additional one with 100L and with that, the water capacity is enough for me (they have a foot sea water pump to have also sea water).

Another interesting feature is the possibility of choosing 4 different drafts, from 1.75 to 2.68M. Pick the one you want, depending to the use you are going to give the boat and the cruising grounds (the weight of each is different, from the heavier with 1.75 to the lighter with 2.65).

Regarding cruising another interesting feature is the possibility of having an all LEED lighting, interior and navigation. That will permit to have the lights on while at anchor, even some reading at night. My wife would love that option

Regards

Paulo


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## TJMAC

Beautiful Paulo.


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## bb74

On the Salona 41 - they need to take another look at the rigging there. Your foresail traveler is going to be severely limited by the inner stay. BIG issues if you're going for a 110% or want to use a light gennaker up front.

Likewise, they have the German main sheet system, but likewise, this overlaps the foresail track. Big issue if your going off wind and have the main and foresail rigging chafing against one another.

Certainly looks nice and well built, but those are two clear "issues" with the current set-up. This boat is set-up for a sym-spinnaker I guess? The blocks are too far forward to single hand a sym and even double handing may be tricky with one person in the steps as the blocks are far forward.

Again, looks like a nice boat, but a bit of a hybrid with some concessions you wouldn't want on a "sport" boat.


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## PCP

bb74 said:


> ..
> Again, looks like a nice boat, but a bit of a hybrid with some concessions you wouldn't want on a "sport" boat.


You can only be kidding 

Contrary with the cruising Pogos that are unsuitable for racing, these boats can race without major modifications and can won races at top level. Take a look:

"2010 September
At the ORCi World Championship in Flensburg, Germany, among the 55 top racing teams and boats from all over the world, Salona has reached podium in both divisions. Croatian Salona 42, All 4 One, skippered by Karlo Kuret won third place overall in the class A and Salona 37 from Holland, skippered by Erik Van Vuueren, won third place in the class B. Both Salonas were launched earlier this year and in June S42 won Open Croatian championship and S37 won Flevo race, Dutch Championship.
Participating for the first time at the World Championship, once again Salona has proved to build boats with uncompromised sailing performance. Many boats built by famous world brands have stayed in the wake of Salonas, even some pure racing boats built in carbon fibre.
The success of Salona teams is even bigger knowing that the boats that raced in Flensburg did not have any special modifications, except S42 being built under IBC specification (Salona 42 All 4 One just came from Adriatic where its owners were cruising and spending family holidays. This boat even has heating system installed onboard in order to provide its owners with the possibility to sail in comfort during the winter)."

The 42 is just the 41 with one steering wheel instead of two. The 41 is also a bit lighter and marginally faster.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> You can only be kidding
> 
> Contrary with the cruising Pogos that are unsuitable for racing, these boats can race without major modifications and can won races at top level. Take a look:
> 
> "2010 September
> At the ORCi World Championship in Flensburg, Germany, among the 55 top racing teams and boats from all over the world, Salona has reached podium in both divisions. Croatian Salona 42, All 4 One, skippered by Karlo Kuret won third place overall in the class A and Salona 37 from Holland, skippered by Erik Van Vuueren, won third place in the class B. Both Salonas were launched earlier this year and in June S42 won Open Croatian championship and S37 won Flevo race, Dutch Championship.
> Participating for the first time at the World Championship, once again Salona has proved to build boats with uncompromised sailing performance. Many boats built by famous world brands have stayed in the wake of Salonas, even some pure racing boats built in carbon fibre.
> The success of Salona teams is even bigger knowing that the boats that raced in Flensburg did not have any special modifications, except S42 being built under IBC specification (Salona 42 All 4 One just came from Adriatic where its owners were cruising and spending family holidays. This boat even has heating system installed onboard in order to provide its owners with the possibility to sail in comfort during the winter)."
> 
> The 42 is just the 41 with one steering wheel instead of two. The 41 is also a bit lighter and marginally faster.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo, All points taken on their sailing performance. I don't doubt the boats do well and they certainly look to be well built.

My issues raised were with the rigging on the 41 pictured. In my view, there are some significant issues there that would make this a tricky boat (as currently rigged) to be swapping out foresails, gennakers & spinnakers. Everything is centered around the rod coming down and overlap with the German sheet and foresail track.

Again, my only issue is how the rigging is setup and that was my point on the "concessions".


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> bb74, I am really interested in understanding what you are saying. This is one of the boats I am interested in and I would like to sort it out any problem. It really would not be a problem if it is sorted out first since the guys from Salona are very helpful and can change the rigging to adapt to particular needs.
> 
> So if you can explain better what you mean I would appreciate
> 
> The photo I have posted, is of a 110% Genoa. It goes inside the inner stay. On the other photo you have a 140% Genoa, it goes outside the stays. I don't understand what is the problem you see with the use of a light geenaker, the geenaker, even a code 0 will not go to the traveller, but to the back of the boat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *For whatever reason, I can't post photos but I think you caught my points for the most part. The foresail track and overlap on the main sheet line limits sail size, shape and tuning ability. I'd guess anything more than a 110 and less than a 130 is a possible issue. It doesn't appear you could properly tune a sail in this "size". The 140 appears OK but by looking at this rigging, I think you are looking at possible chafing on the rigging pointing at max. Maybe this isn't an issue. It is something I would look into on the boat itself. I haven't been on one but it looks like this would be the case. It would be interesting to get their feedback on main/foresail balance in the 110 to 140 range. Clearly some considerations they've engineered around there so I think one could assume it's meant to work with a 110 or 140.*
> 
> I think I understand what you mean but I don't understand how it can happen, unless it is badly designed and that should be difficult. The rigging set up is designed by the boat architecht and fine tunned by the resident naval architect that is a good sailor, with the contribution of Salona clients that are mostly racers. I think the system is designed in a way that the 110% Genoa or smaller sail, will work on the track forward of the German sheet line and the 140% Genoa or bigger on the track aft that sheet. I will ask them but I am pretty sure that the system will work smoothly.
> 
> The spinnaker blocks are very near to the wheels at easy reach of a solo sailor. Can you explain this better?
> 
> *Your spinnaker pulley/block is behind the mainsail winch, which is behind the foresail winch. As the german sheet system is under deck, make sure the outlet pulley (to the winch) can provide access to both winches. Purely by the angle in the pics, I doubt you should look at rigging the mainsail sheet on the foresail winch. Too much angle and likely friction. So assuming that, you're basically hand-managing a spinnaker on a 41 footer because otherwise you're crossing the cockpit to your off station foresail winch. A bit messy. perhaps you can bring this back to the companionway winch..?? Need to confirm if the deck mouldings and angles allow this. As it is currently set-up, I don't see a way you can bring the spinnaker lines to the foresail winch so even having blockers on these may not be of great benefit. I know you don't always need a winch for the spi if the tackle and blocks are sized appropriately. I do know from experience that it's better to have the option to winch it down. Opposite side, you would need a winch for the spinnaker pole so again, similar challenge, and you absolutely need the winch to manage the pole. Maybe the logic is station 1 helm & main, station 2 windward sheet off the block, station 3 pole + halyard in the companionway, station 4 foredeck...?
> 
> You need clean access to a sheet winch to set the Gennaker or Spi in medium wind and I don't see how this works (yet) on this boat with the set-up. If you lose the mainsheet winch, how do you control the main? Nitpicking for some, I'm sure. I don't doubt they've thought these things thru at Salona, and it would be interesting to get their thoughts and recommendations.
> 
> Best regards.*
> 
> Probably the only thing I would like to add is to put blocks identical to the ones from the spinnaker before the genoa sheet reachs the winch. That way I can have the genoa on while I use the winch to set a geenaker or a spinnaker.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


test to see if captured


----------



## JAndersB

Dear all,
I have read through all pages. Interesting reading. I have myself been through several boats during the last 10 years looking for the perfect boat and so far not succeeded. What I am looking for is a 38-40 feet deck saloon, with a sailing friendly cockpit (big or double wheels, side coamings to sit on with good looks forward,single handed set up) and with good sailing performance. The best pick so far (an Olsen 38 P 1995) was lost in fire so I bought under time pressure an Beneteau Oceanis 40 2007 and after getting tired of the frequent broaches I bought a Dehler 43 CWS 1993 2 years ago. It is ticking many boxes and was well before its time with furler under deck, all sheets and haylards below deck to 2 electrical winches at the doubled steering wheels, fold down bathing platform etc. It is also stiff and very reluctant to loose rudder grip. But, as an old windsurfer would like, it does not take off even if it is a very fast boat. At those (rare) days when everything is perfect, strong winds from the right direction etc. and you expect to enjoy the sailing it is as dissapointing as all previous boats. 8 knots, 8,5 knots perhaps 9,5 knots and then thats it. But in the next puff it will fly you think but not much more happens. 

I did hit 13,5 knots sailing it home from Germany to Sweden but that was with 22 m/s from behind and with only one reef in the big main.

So once again I am contemplating a new boat and I have been looking at the Elan 350 (too small), RM 1200 and 1060, Azzuree 40, and Wauquiez Opium 38. After reading through all these pages I am though more and more pessimistic about if I will get these boat doing so much more speed. I like to bring with me things that make the summer sailing nice, that is bikes, windsurfing boards, dinghy etc. so I am afraid that these modern twin rudder wide stern boats will not take off either, as I am spoiled with from my windsurfng board.


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## bb74

I don't think you'll be seeing a huge upgrade in average speed unless you sail in heavy conditions with a lot of cloth out. I've never sailed your boat, but I would imagine that you would have a lighter "feel" of the tiller on an Opium (for example). Load it up however and you have the same problem as you have now. A boat that is no longer light as a feather and therefore acceleration and feel will suffer some. I'd suggest you look at what you carry as payload on your current boat and what that would mean on a new boat - if you are anywhere near 75% of max payload of a planing design, the performance is likely to suffer. It's like trying to pack 8 suitcases and a ski rack on a Lotus Elise.


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## bb74

some info for thought - from the Pogo 40 GTE and the 10.50. 

POGO 40 GTE
Prédictions de vitesse
Best Boatspeeds (kt)
4 6 8 10 12 14 16 20 25 30 35
32.0 3.08 4.59 5.76 6.52 6.92 7.15 7.32 7.56 7.73 7.79 7.76
36.0 3.50 5.14 6.31 6.94 7.29 7.54 7.71 7.94 8.11 8.19 8.21
40.0 3.86 5.60 6.73 7.27 7.63 7.84 8.01 8.24 8.43 8.55 8.59
45.0 4.28 6.07 7.10 7.65 7.95 8.15 8.32 8.58 8.78 8.93 9.00
52.0 4.77 6.60 7.54 8.02 8.30 8.50 8.69 9.02 9.29 9.47 9.59
60.0 5.19 6.98 7.88 8.34 8.64 8.91 9.13 9.48 9.83 10.11 10.32
70.0 5.51 7.27 8.12 8.70 9.05 9.34 9.59 10.06 10.60 11.08 11.48
80.0 5.63 7.39 8.30 8.92 9.39 9.72 10.06 10.71 11.54 12.28 12.85
90.0 5.71 7.59 8.44 9.02 9.59 10.11 10.54 11.45 12.56 13.72 14.53
100.0 5.85 7.73 8.63 9.19 9.66 10.26 11.01 12.21 13.76 14.88 15.74
110.0 5.80 7.70 8.61 9.38 9.93 10.51 11.13 12.87 14.65 15.86 16.91
120.0 5.52 7.41 8.52 9.31 10.12 10.79 11.61 13.12 15.34 16.75 17.99
130.0 4.94 6.89 8.14 9.08 9.92 10.79 11.96 13.88 15.71 17.31 18.91
140.0 4.18 6.08 7.48 8.45 9.35 10.30 11.48 14.16 16.33 18.18 19.89
150.0 3.39 5.09 6.57 7.70 8.59 9.43 10.38 12.98 16.28 18.98 20.99
160.0 2.82 4.26 5.62 6.83 7.81 8.62 9.42 11.36 14.71 18.02 21.21
170.0 2.52 3.80 5.06 6.24 7.27 8.15 8.94 10.62 13.54 16.69 19.95
180.0 2.43 3.66 4.89 6.04 7.08 7.98 8.75 10.36 13.08 16.17 19.31
Up.Vs 4.32 5.85 6.66 6.94 7.26 7.47 7.61 7.78 7.94 8.07 8.16
Up.Bt 45.4 42.5 39.2 35.9 35.6 35.3 34.9 34.1 34.1 34.7 35.5
Up.Vmg 3.03 4.31 5.16 5.62 5.90 6.10 6.24 6.44 6.58 6.64 6.64
Dn.Vs 4.51 6.20 7.06 7.77 8.39 9.23 10.57 13.41 16.04 18.56 21.03
Dn.Bt 135.6 138.6 144.4 149.0 152.3 152.5 148.3 147.3 152.8 156.8 161.7
Dn.Vmg 3.22 4.65 5.74 6.66 7.43 8.18 8.99 11.28 14.27 17.06 19.97

and for the Pogo 10.50

POGO 10.50 - VPP finot-conq
a r c h i t e c t e s
sans modèle vagues
Best Boatspeeds (kt)
4 6 8 10 12
32 2,33 3,53 4,61 5,32 5,71
36 2,63 3,95 5,1 5,78 6,14
40 2,88 4,32 5,51 6,16 6,48
45 3,17 4,71 5,93 6,53 6,82
52 3,49 5,14 6,38 6,94 7,23
60 3,76 5,48 6,7 7,31 7,57
70 3,96 5,71 6,94 7,61 7,91
80 4,39 6,27 7,18 7,75 8,2
90 4,62 6,51 7,43 7,85 8,33
100 4,67 6,54 7,59 8,08 8,48
110 4,49 6,36 7,55 8,26 8,71
120 4,15 5,99 7,3 8,15 8,84
130 3,7 5,45 6,82 7,78 8,58
140 3,19 4,78 6,19 7,27 8,06
150 2,74 4,13 5,43 6,58 7,48
160 2,36 3,56 4,74 5,84 6,81
170 2,14 3,23 4,31 5,35 6,32
180 1,97 2,98 3,98 4,96 5,88
Up Vs 3,12 4,6 5,65 6,13 6,3
Up Bt 44,4 43,5 41,5 39,6 37,7
Up Vmg 2,23 3,34 4,23 4,72 4,98
Dn Vs 3,21 4,74 5,92 6,66 7,34
Dn Bt 139,2 140,2 143,2 148,7 151,9
Dn Vmg 2,43 3,65 4,74 5,69 6,48
finot-conq chantier STRUCTURES le 21/11/08
t e c t e s
14 16 20 25 30 35
5,94 6,1 6,29 6,38 6,33 6,15
6,36 6,51 6,71 6,84 6,85 6,75
6,68 6,84 7,07 7,22 7,27 7,23
7,04 7,21 7,43 7,57 7,63 7,63
7,42 7,58 7,81 7,99 8,1 8,13
7,77 7,94 8,2 8,44 8,58 8,65
8,14 8,34 8,66 8,94 9,14 9,27
8,47 8,7 9,06 9,47 9,78 10,01
8,75 9,01 9,51 10,06 10,55 10,94
8,81 9,28 9,97 10,73 11,41 11,95
9,08 9,46 10,36 11,42 12,27 13,07
9,33 9,8 10,76 11,96 13,17 14,06
9,32 10,08 11,3 12,76 14,09 15,22
8,82 9,65 11,67 13,57 15,09 16,45
8,21 8,9 10,7 13,66 16,04 17,6
7,6 8,28 9,73 12,23 15,16 17,97
7,15 7,83 9,12 11,24 13,93 16,67
6,71 7,44 8,64 10,35 12,69 15,25
6,43 6,58 6,88 7,05 7,14 7,18
36,8 36,9 37,7 38,1 38,6 39,6
5,15 5,27 5,44 5,55 5,58 5,54
7,64 8,28 11,04 13,59 15,72 17,87
159 159,9 147,3 150,5 155,7 161
7,13 7,77 9,29 11,83 14,33 16,9


----------



## PCP

bb74, I think there is something wrong with those tables. Probably they are not well aligned . First numbers are wind speed, I guess, but you have 4,6 and 8 over 32º. Please separate the wind speeds with traces to make them match with the correspondent wind speeds.

The 40 GTE is the racing Pogo. They don't have boat speeds for the cruising one?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

I can't past a *gif or image for some reason. The 32°, etc is true wind angle. The 4 6 8 etc is true wind speed.


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1350*



JAndersB said:


> Dear all,
> I have read through all pages. Interesting reading. I have myself been through several boats during the last 10 years looking for the perfect boat and so far not succeeded. What I am looking for is a 38-40 feet deck saloon, with a sailing friendly cockpit (big or double wheels, side coamings to sit on with good looks forward,single handed set up) and with good sailing performance. The best pick so far (an Olsen 38 P 1995) was lost in fire so I bought under time pressure an Beneteau Oceanis 40 2007 and after getting tired of the frequent broaches I bought a Dehler 43 CWS 1993 2 years ago. It is ticking many boxes and was well before its time with furler under deck, all sheets and haylards below deck to 2 electrical winches at the doubled steering wheels, fold down bathing platform etc. It is also stiff and very reluctant to loose rudder grip. But, as an old windsurfer would like, it does not take off even if it is a very fast boat. At those (rare) days when everything is perfect, strong winds from the right direction etc. and you expect to enjoy the sailing it is as dissapointing as all previous boats. 8 knots, 8,5 knots perhaps 9,5 knots and then thats it. But in the next puff it will fly you think but not much more happens.
> 
> I did hit 13,5 knots sailing it home from Germany to Sweden but that was with 22 m/s from behind and with only one reef in the big main.
> 
> So once again I am contemplating a new boat and I have been looking at the Elan 350 (too small), RM 1200 and 1060, Azzuree 40, and Wauquiez Opium 38. After reading through all these pages I am though more and more pessimistic about if I will get these boat doing so much more speed. I like to bring with me things that make the summer sailing nice, that is bikes, windsurfing boards, dinghy etc. so I am afraid that these modern twin rudder wide stern boats will not take off either, as I am spoiled with from my windsurfng board.


Welcome to the Sailnet and particularly to this thread

I agree partially with bb74 in what regards the speed of your boat in comparison with the other boats you mention.

You are right, the Dehler 43 CWS was a very good boat and it can still stand as a fast boat. It is relatively light (8.7T) but also with a relatively small sail area (86m2). It was 3.95M of beam and 11.55M of LWL.

A RM 1200 weights 7.8T and has a 99.5 m2 of sail area with 4.22m of beam and 11.42m of LWL. With the same charge the RM will be considerably faster on light winds and will go considerable faster downwind. The bigger beam and stern gives an overall small weight distribution and makes it easier to plan.

Of course an Opium 39 with only 5000kg of weight, 87m2 of sail area, 4.18m of beam and an LWL of 11.02m will probably be faster than the RM at least by the same margin the RM is to your boat.

They announce a Max charge for the Opium 39 of 2600kg and that is a lot. If you cruise with half of that, I am sure the RM will still be a very fast boat.

If we consider the 1300kg (half charge) - 510kg of tankage - 4 adults X 85kg we still have 450 kg for provisions and equipment. That is a possible cruising charge but only for coastal cruising and to the ones that don't like to carry a lot of stuff. Sure you can have 1800kg for provisions and equipment and that will give it passage autonomy but at the cost of speed, at least till the provisions are eaten

The boat that is most adapted for what I think you want would not be the RM 1200, but the RM 1350 (cruising fast with a considerable load). This one, like the RM 1200 can be sailed from the interior, has a big loading capacity and is a lot faster than the RM1200. Even with more than what you carry in your boat this boat would be at half charge and would sail fast and plan easily with 16/17K winds. The RM 1350 with 17/18K of wind is an easy 10/11K sailing boat (from 65º up).

video Voilier RM 1350 Cruising Bird premiere sortie au pays basque - coaching, location voiliers, hendaye - video kewego
























The RM 1350 is a fast boat that doesn't give the sensation to be a fast boat. The boat is very stable, heel very little and you have to look at the instruments to understand that you are going really fast (except with lots of wind, downwind were the boat can be fun, safe and very fast).

Anyway, I agree with bb74 in one thing: With medium or strong winds, close to the wind your boat is hard to beat, and even if some of the other boats I have pointed out can be faster, it would not be a big difference.

If that pilot-house capacity is not a priority ( and I understand that for the ones that sail in Sweden it can really make sense) and If you want a fast boat that is not especially optimized for downwind sailing, but more of an all around performer with a good interior then you can also consider the Salona 41. 7.2T of weight and 111m2 of sail gives you an idea of the boat speed potential.

I you want really a fast downwind sailing boat with a good interior why not to wait 9 months for the new Elan 40?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Dear Paulo,
thank you for the feed back. One thing I would like to comment is that my Dehler has a 37 sqm jib and a 61 sqm main (I put in some more roach) so sail area quite OK but not as big as in the Salona.

I have test sailed the RM1200 and visited the RM1350. RM1200 is very nice but a little bit too big. It had the single rudder configuration and I found it as prone to broaching as the Beneteau Oceanis. The twin rudder option would be a must. It was also slamming harder than the Benetau going to windward. I found the 1350 not giving that much more than the 1200 and it is of course even bigger than the 1200.

I am not looking for a pilot huse as much as for a deck saloon. If I am anchored in the nature or in a busy harbour I would like to be able to see the scenery even at night or in bad weather.

Yes, the coming Elan 40 could be a hit, meanwhile the Opium 39 ticks many boxes except the true deck saloon-request. Or I stick with the Dehler and concentrate on going to windward 

Regards,
Anders


----------



## nemier

*PCP - Have you found your boat yet?*

Hello PCP,
I'm just checking in, to see if you have made any decisions on your next boat purchase? I'm personally no further ahead, but I have not sold my existing boat yet so there is certainly not much I can do until that time comes. Hopefully this season eh?

I'm sitting in Dubai Airport running through this thread from start to finish (keeping me out of trouble for a few hours  and I wondered if you have made your decision? If not, please reveal your short-list.

I'm finding this thread incredibly interesting. Thanks again for it.


----------



## EricKLYC

bb74 said:


> Structures is pretty open (in my discussions with them), on finding that slot for the delivery date. On the 10.50, when I last spoke with them, there were a few slots that could have been available before the full 2 1/2 year wait list as some (a few) buyers wouldn't mind postponing delivery due to various reasons. I'm not sure if this is still the case because it's been a few months since I've spoke with them but I would imagine there are slots in well under 2 years.


Please excuse me for this late reply, I was absent for some time. But I did follow your advice and asked Structures for an update. Unfortunately (for me) all pre-bookings have been confirmed so the waiting list remains around 12-18months for the Pogo 12.50. Which is still a lot better than for the 10.50 and since we are now almost half-way...

Meanwhile some very interesting posts have catched my attention. For example, I very well understand JAndersB looking for an even more exhilarating boat than the Dehler 43. Having sailed a Dehler 39 CWS for many years, also a quite fast design considering the time and rating issues, I also missed the kick one gets on a Laser or a 470. 
Of course no seaworthy sailing yacht will ever give the same feeling, but during a week on the Pogo 10.50 we sometimes got quite close. Over 13K in 17K of true wind, under asymetric but in cruising mode (probably even somewhat overloaded), these light displacement boats clearly play in a different league. The figures bb74 posted are certainly realistic.

Speaking of displacement and load capacity, I agree with Paulo. There are of course no miracles, not even in yacht design, we have to make choices. Light, beamy and fast (especially downwind), or more comfortable with better load capacity. The latter increases with the size of the boat and that's one of the reasons why we opted for the bigger Pogo. And why they now work on a 50 footer, for those who want to spend months instead of weeks on board. Blue water cruisers like the RM's try to make the best out of two worlds and may be a good compromise.

Concerning ballast ratio, I would like to add a parameter: draught. The lower the ballast is, the more efficient it will be. That's why a lighter but deeper canting keel will work as well as a more heavy fixed or lifting keel, while reducing total weight. And with a high aspect ratio that might have the efficienty of a daggerboard...

Kind regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> .. One thing I would like to comment is that my Dehler has a 37 sqm jib and a 61 sqm main (I put in some more roach) so sail area quite OK but not as big as in the Salona.


Anders,

That is outstanding, even if I don't know how do you managed to pass from 86m2 to 98m2. I don't think more roach is enough. You have a much bigger mast than the one on this Dehler 43, that I think is the standard boat?

http://www.wasayachts.com/dyn/files/normaltables_items_items/64-file-1/Dehler 43 Max.pdf

I have following the new Dehler 40 and the boat in its standard version will have 8280kg and only 92m2 of sail and that would make it probably slower than your boat and the Dehler 40 is suposed to be a fast boat. 

Are you sure your boat has 98m2 of sail?



JAndersB said:


> I have test sailed the RM1200 and visited the RM1350. RM1200 is very nice but a little bit too big. It had the single rudder configuration and I found it as prone to broaching as the Beneteau Oceanis. The twin rudder option would be a must. It was also slamming harder than the Benetau going to windward. I found the 1350 not giving that much more than the 1200 and it is of course even bigger than the 1200.


I have also test sailed the RM1200, but not the 1350. The numbers and speeds that I have seen refereed by people that have sailed the 1350 and by testers point to a fast boat. On the last Route du Rhum there was one racing, naked and optimized, with a single keel and the boat was as fast as some 40class racers, and that is fast

What I think we agree is that the RM1200 and possibly the RM1300 don't give too much sensations at the wheel, or tiller.

When you say that the RM1200 is " as prone to broaching as the Beneteau Oceanis "(40) I guess that you have tried the boat when you had already the Dehler The Oceanis 40 is one of the cruisers with less ballast/weight ratio and if you carry too much sail, there it goes, really easy.

I don't believe it is fair to say that the RM 1200 broaches as easily as the Oceanis 40. The RM carries a lot of sail and it is designed to sail with not too much heel. If you have too much sail, it will broach, but at a very different speed and with more wind. The RM 1200 has a much bigger stability if compared with the Oceanis 40.

Of course, you can not compare it with the Dehler. It is a completely different type of boat, the Dehler is a narrower boat, with a smaller hull stability but with a bigger Ballast/weight ratio (to compensate the smaller hull stability). That means that the Dehler will sail with a lot more heel and can take a lot more heel without broaching, but that is just natural and it has to do with the different design philosophy.

Saying that I would say that they should have already mounted a twin rudder on the RM1200. That will make it more difficult to broach.



JAndersB said:


> I am not looking for a pilot huse as much as for a deck saloon. If I am anchored in the nature or in a busy harbour I would like to be able to see the scenery even at night or in bad weather.


You are not the only one. Me and my wife share your opinion. If she choose the boat she would settle for a Southerly 42 (we have not the money for one, so that settles the problem wit my wife) I want a fast boat, a good looking boat and one that can be fun to sail. The only relatively small one that I know that ticks all the boxes is the Luffe 43DS. My wife likes that one also, but unfortunately it is also too expensive for us. So I guess that we would have to live with a small port hull, just to have some view to the scenery. 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*My kind of boats*



nemier said:


> Hello PCP,
> I'm just checking in, to see if you have made any decisions on your next boat purchase? I'm personally no further ahead, but I have not sold my existing boat yet so there is certainly not much I can do until that time comes. Hopefully this season eh?
> 
> I'm sitting in Dubai Airport running through this thread from start to finish (keeping me out of trouble for a few hours  and I wondered if you have made your decision? If not, please reveal your short-list.
> 
> I'm finding this thread incredibly interesting. Thanks again for it.


Hi Nemier,

I missed you, please post more

Yes I guess that I have found my boat, but I am limited in what regards budget. I prefer not to say right now because it can bring bad luck . Let me see if all things go smoothly right and in 15 days I will know. Anyway the boat I will chose for me it is just the one that fits my criteria: Fast but relatively comfortable, one that I can find beautiful and one that I can sail solo and where I felt at home...but most of all, one that I can pay and that in many cases depend not only of the boat price but on the deal you can have...and I had some good offers. This is a good time to buy a new boat

If I didn't have a limited budget I would probably chose a Luffe 43ds. I would even be tempted by a "regular" Luffe 43, or I would wait one or two years for the one that is going to replace the Luffe 43. I think It is going to deserve the wait. Other boats that I would seriously consider: The Arcona 43 and The Grand Soleil 43, both beautiful and fast boats.

Now, the boats that I have been looking into and that fit my actual budget are the First 40 versus the Elan 380. The Elan 380 won. The First has not a decent anchor locker, neither a decent storage on the outside and the new CR is heavy and made in monolithic. I had a very good offer on a top of line Elan 380, carbon mast and all. Beautiful boat with a good interior. Very tempting. The boat costs not much more than the Elan 350 it is faster, and as I am not interested in racing and ratings, I would prefer it over the 350. Better interior better sea motion and better water tankage.

Those two would be the rational choice regarding my budget, but if I stretch it to the unreasonable limit or even a little beyond I would be dreaming about two other boats, the Dehler 40 versus the Salona 41.

Okay, the Dehler 40 is only in paper but that's why I can have a good price on it. I have looked at the drawings and I like it, all of it. I have been inside the 45 and I know the 40, as the 45, will have a sweet finish. Regarding the Salona 41, I have been several times inside the boat and I love it. Not so well finished as the Dehler but better than the Elan (the materials are better). The boat has also an inox steel grid to distribute the charges from the keel and the shrouds and I love the simplicity and efficiency of it. It is a item that only much more expensive boats have, like the X yachts, the Luffe or Grand Soleil.

Between the two I will chose the Salona, because even if they are selling the Dehler at an promotional (excellent) price, I can have a top boat with Salona while on the Dehler I would just have a standard boat and believe me a standard Dehler would make a big difference to a top Dehler 40, in price and in performance. For the price of a Standard Dehler you could have a Salona that can probably beat the top Dehler, not that I am interested in racing but it pisses me to be overtaken .

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

Hey guys, just to let you know: I have been told that RM has already started drawing the sucessor of the 1200.
I hope for a wider stern....
Ulf


----------



## PCP

*Soto 40 movie*

New post about a Sexy boat. Not the kind you would want to marry, I mean live with all the time, but certainly one you would love to have an occasional relation, I mean having fun with it, or racing .

That's an American boat and probably one of the best, if not the best American racing boat that has come out in some years. Everybody wants racing in one, in America, In Europe and in the Far east. The 40ft boat was elected for the 2011 Audi med cup and from 2012 to the Asia cup. It's the *SOTO 40* designed by Soto Acebal, a bright Argentinian NA and made by Mboats:

Sailboats

MBOATS I High Quality Boats I Barcos y Veleros

The boat has a large transom but not a big beam (3.74m) weights 4.2T has a relatively small draft for a racing boat (2.6m) half of its weight is ballast and and it is not expensive. It is probably the best "bang for the buck" in 40fts racing boats.

News: Soto 40 joins for the 2011 Circuit

It is not a handicap boat. It's funny what they say about handicaps (I am happy to see that I am not the only one that find that handicap story an anachronism):

"Remember, the whole Soto 40 story started because of two men's loathing for rating rules and their desire to get back to basics in a seriously fast, simple and affordable yacht.

Upfront, we are proud that the design philosophy of the Soto 40 was to build a fast, simple, affordable yacht without ANY attention paid to handicaps. 
'Handicap' by definition, means 'slow' when it comes to sailing. Designers who chase the IRC holy grail come up with all sorts of clever ways of maximizing a drop in rating whilst minimising the actual drop in speed. Sadly, it all means your yacht will go slower, one way or the other.

Everyday we are getting lots of enquiries about the Soto 40 OD and its potential in IRC, the rating rule 'de jour' currently in force in many parts of 
the world. We all know that the rule is imperfect but, it seems, is the best we have until ORC International (ORCi) gets traction, becomes cheaper 
and more user-friendly.

But we totally recognise that you will want to get the most out of your investment and this could include fleet racing with IRC-handicapped yachts.

So, if we must play IRC for the moment, how is a Soto 40 One Design going to perform in your current IRC fleet?

Only one Soto 40 has been measured for IRC - Drumbeat. Despite the two trial certificates done in the last year being a lower number, 'Drumbeat' 
ended up with a shocker number... 1.26. It indicates two things. 1) The Soto 40 is recognised in the rule as a very fast yacht and 2) the Soto 40 
is not your typical IRC yacht and was never going to have a low number. But look at the published VPPs of other 40 footers (Farr 40, Archambault 
40 RC, Beneteau First 40, J122) and you will see that the speed differences agree with the higher rating. The maths doesn't lie and the fact is that, 
on paper, the Soto 40 One Design should perform well in an IRC fleet on its day. In a passage race situation the Soto 40 would likely be getting 
podium positions."

WORLD CLASS RACING - IRC and ORCi
































































http://www.longitudeyachts.com/attachments/File/World_e-brochure_web.pdf

Yes I know, this boat is not the kind of racer that is suited to sail for a weekend with the family. this is really a racing boat: It has a head and a small galley just for offshore racing but its standing height is only 1.5m.

But just look at these videos, that's a fantastic boat :





















YouTube - S40 (Soto 40) One Design

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

paulo,

Looks like a fun boat, not one my wife would like tho! A melges 32 might have a bit more potential than the soto to get the wife interested! Not that either the M32 or the Soto are cruisers for the rank and file folks....

Marty


----------



## PCP

*XC 38 boat of the year - boat test*



blt2ski said:


> paulo,
> 
> Looks like a fun boat, not one my wife would like tho! A melges 32 might have a bit more potential than the soto to get the wife interested! Not that either the M32 or the Soto are cruisers for the rank and file folks....
> 
> Marty


Well Marty, your wife will love this one. My wife loves it and I just didn't talk too much about it because I just tend to look to the other side regarding thinks I like but that I can't have, and that's the case with the Xc 38, the 2011 Quality European boat of the Year. I have said about it, six months ago:

*" It is just the perfect bluewater boat for a solo sailor. It is not big but has the right size to be easily handled, it is not very fast, but it is fast enough and the interior is just perfect. Good taste, storage and very good quality all-around, that's the X-38Cr"*

Well, it is not only great for a solo sailor, its also the perfect offshore long range cruiser for a couple with good taste and that lives aboard a lot. The boat is beautiful, with a very comfortable interior, seaworthy, relatively fast, small enough to be handled easily solo, low maintenance and high-quality everywhere.

Big enough to be safe and fast, small enough for low maintenance and marina low costs.

The boat was tested by YachtingMonthly one of my preferred boat magazines. They are quite demanding in what regards boats and they have a system to evaluate boats under different chapters: 10 different subjects with each scoring 0 to 10, to a total of 100 points. They have given to the boat 92 points, scoring at least 9 out of 10 in each subject with two 10 (Design/construction and maintenance). I don't remember of any boat scoring that high...never. Saying that they where impressed is an understatement .

You can read the full test here:

X-Yachts Corporate site

On the conclusion they say:

*"She glided between zephyrs and with her pedigree she should comfortably plough through any weather at passage-pounding speed. Below, she's secure, luxurious, exceptionally well built and the basic spec is comprehensive. She's not cheap but you could sail a lifetime and never find quality to match."*

The boat testers from all the boat magazines that have voted the X38 boat of the year said about it:

Xc38
.. It does everything - from using the space to the premium (the inside is capacious throughout), to build and finish quality, to sailing performance - exceptionally well. The 38 defines 'luxury cruiser', in a very manageable size. The fact that X have now won this category prize twice for the same range speaks volumes&#8230;..

The boat to take you everywhere - and quick. The cockpit is designed for relaxed cruising. Very safe, with exceptionally well dimensioned winches, jammers and fittings. Helming is fine. &#8230;. Astonishingly roomy for a 38-footer, very bright and nicely done below. The yard is to be praised to only offer her in a two-cabin-layout as this makes ultimate sense if you also need storage for long cruises. Even though the lines are rather classy, the feel onboard is always privileged, not pretentious - nor old-fashioned. Price could be an issue, but in this class - not really.

It looks good, it feels great : you cannot be disappointed when sailing this Xc. But this doesn't come as a surprise. The best part of the boat is to be discovered under the deck. With only two cabins, the layout is great. Very classy but roomy altogether. A boat you would like to go cruising with and to show your friends.

There are four main-reasons for the success of the Xc-38: build quality, sailing performance, the feeling on the helm and the aft-cockpit-concept. &#8230;Xc 38 The perfect mixture
Xc 38 is the best Xc and a very happy design. Traditional, good lines via trunky coachroof, pleasing sheerline, classic stern, is in harmony with the deep powerful hull. In terms of looks, sailing, comfort and needs for cruising, Xc 38 scores top points. It might not be the cheapest boat of her kind, but neither the highest priced, thus giving buyers good value for the money.

In heavy winds Xc 38 proved her point, really good stability with 40 % ballast which help tracking. Bite upwind is firm and the boat kept going when the wind gusted to 30 knots, no broaching and great contact in the twin wheels. Tailor-made rudder and rig, well positioned mast and keel, exemplifies how well race experience can be married with relaxed cruising&#8230;.

.. Xc 38 is fast an enjoyable, but also smart and comfortable to live on board. The accommodation will also work at sea. It's a sporty cruiser with a tall rig.

The «little sister» of the XC-45 shows the experience of the Danish yard. To reduce a good and winsome yacht into a smaller size often fails - Niels Jeppesen and his crew succeed. The XC-38 has everything to go around the world - but her sailing performance may tempt to take part in regattas. The biggest «wow-effect» is under deck: it seems quiet impossible to offer that much space on only 38 feet&#8230;.

In my opinion the most seamless of the Xc series from X. Of course it sails well but never the less you are surprised that a quite heavy boat feels so light on the helm. It feels just right going upwind even in heavy breeze. Down below you are amazed that a 38 footer can be so roomy and also with a nice focus on the details that makes it all come together to a unique cruiser.

This boat did not only impress me, from the first time I have been inside one, not only the guys from YachtingWorld, but all the guys that have tested the boat. *That's what I call an impressive boat*

Take a look at the interior, a sweet and cozy one:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/xc38_.swf






Take a look how it sails:

XC 38: neuer Cruiser: Der goldene Schnitt aus DÃ¤nemark - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE









































































X-Yachts Corporate site

Slide Show Xc 38 Photos

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Spouse does like the X-yachts, should have heard her purring on the one we have been on, and that was on older 119.....

She likes the look of the X-35 inside over the pics from the 35, 37. Not sure I have shown here pics of the 38........ yet.........

Then again, at the moment, above our price range.....but we can dream!

marty


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 439*

Above yours and above my budget also

Have you seen the first movie of the Jeanneau 439 sailing? It's from the boat test from the magazine "Yacht".

Sun Odyssey 439: Die große Schwester der Siegerin - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Paulo,
the Dehler 43 CWS has a 56 sqm main and 36 sqm jib as standard (also stipuletad in original brochure), and those sails are pretty triangular in shape, my boat still had the originals on when I bought it, and they did also not fill the mast and boom lenghts fully. I ordered a max roach main and a full cut jib in the sense of maximising the area, with standing battens in the leech of the jib. So sail area is pretty OK on the Dehler as it is now, and I also have no problems overtaking most boats I find, both up and down wind. 

When I test sailed the RM 1200 I still had the Beneteau. I sailed the boat in Oslo, with the owner who is CEO (I think) for Den Norske Veritas. He is very experienced. We had appr 10-11 m/s on the nose and sailed with the staysail and one reef in the main, on pretty flat water. Still we had to be very alert with the main and dump it down the track very often to avoid to much broaching. Not really what I hoped for but expected due to the wide stern and singel rudder. 

I like the RM boats very much and I visited La Rochelle in september for the RM1060, but if I would buy one it would definitively be in two rudder configuration.


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> ....
> 
> When I test sailed the RM 1200 I still had the Beneteau. I sailed the boat in Oslo, with the owner who is CEO (I think) for Den Norske Veritas. He is very experienced. We had appr 10-11 m/s on the nose and sailed with the staysail and one reef in the main, on pretty flat water. Still we had to be very alert with the main and dump it down the track very often to avoid to much broaching. Not really what I hoped for but expected due to the wide stern and singel rudder.
> 
> I like the RM boats very much and I visited La Rochelle in september for the RM1060, but if I would buy one it would definitively be in two rudder configuration.


Yes, it makes sense. you were sailing the RM like a racer, not a cruiser not that I would not have done the same.

But the boat is not really designed for that and close on the wind is its weakest point of sail. Even so you were doing what: 7K ?

You are right about the two rudders. It will make a big difference at the stability downwind and on the limit, upwind.

About the RM 1060, if you are going to test sail the boat I would be very interested in hearing your opinion. It seems to me that the testers that have sailed the boat for the different boat magazines were not very enthusiastic about it. That seems odd, with that weight and sail area the boat should oversail an Elan 350, but I have not stayed with that impression.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

PCP said:


> Hi Nemier,
> 
> I missed you, please post more
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo,
Unfortunately I've been working quite a bit lately.
2 kids in University  
But right now, my wife and I made time for a trip to the Maldives.
As always I managed to find some sailing time.


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
I will keep you posted if I testsail the RM1060.

By the way, I was a little bit suprised about you saying you would prefer the Elan 380 over the 350. I like the interior of the 380 better than that of the 350 since I am only 171 cm long and in the 380 I can see out of the windows while standing, in the 350 (and the 410) they are too high up. And I also realise that the 380 might be quicker considering both up and down wind. But, even if I always sail upwind also, not motor, is it not for the joy of having a rush down wind we go sailing (not considering the G&T at anchor of course).

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350 versus Elan 380*



JAndersB said:


> Hi Paulo,
> I will keep you posted if I testsail the RM1060.
> 
> By the way, I was a little bit suprised about you saying you would prefer the Elan 380 over the 350. I like the interior of the 380 better than that of the 350 since I am only 171 cm long and in the 380 I can see out of the windows while standing, in the 350 (and the 410) they are too high up. And I also realise that the 380 might be quicker considering both up and down wind. But, even if I always sail upwind also, not motor, is it not for the joy of having a rush down wind we go sailing (not considering the G&T at anchor of course).
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Anders,

Let me explain a bit better. I find the 350 a sweet boat and I would have preferred a 380 that looked like an over-sized 350, two rudders and all. But what you have are the boats like they are, including the price you can get them.

When I have said that I would prefer the 380 over the 350, price matters a lot. They are selling the 350 very well and they maintain the prices high and discounts low.

The price of the 350 is a bit misleading: the basic price is alright but then there is a large number of extras and the final price is a bit high (for a 35ft). They are not selling well the 380. Not that the boat is not good but the rating is worse than the one on the 350 (the 350 win on compensated time over the 380) and most of the guys that buy that kind of boat makes club races. I don't want to race, I want to cruise fast and they offer big discounts on the 380, carbon mast and all, making the difference in price to the 350 really small (both boats fully equipped).

I have tried the Elan 380 in Slovenia (its a sweet boat) and the owner of the boat I test sailed is a serious racer. He sails all the Slovenian championship (Slovenia is the homeland of Elan) and sails all the time against the 350 and we had a talk about it (he was not interested in selling his boat ):

He says that in real time the 380 is always faster, upwind and downwind and that in compensated time sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses but he admitted that he loses most of the time (the 380 is an incredible boat upwind and to plane downwind needs two more knots of wind, compared with the 350). His boat was a top spec boat, carbon mast and all, but he had mounted dracon sails for going cruising with the family.

I raised some doubts about the comparative performance of the two boats but he was so sure about it that he pointed to a 350 that was sailing on the other side of the bay (we were in Portoroz) with racing sails and all and said: Let's go catching them (cruising sails an all)

Unfortunately the wind died out and the other boat went to the marina so I could not have that verified personally but I have no reasons to think that he was not telling the truth.

So what I have are two boats (350 and 380) with not very different prices, one slower and with a smaller interior other faster and with a better interior. I choose the faster one with the better interior. It seems logical to me

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Paulo,
I have had a thorough look at Elan 410 and Dufour 40e, but not testsailed them. Both of them lack the double rudder option and also have quite a low ballast ratio. I can also not see out in any of them (standing) since the windows are too high. I do not like the divided hull window in the Dufour and the hull windows in the Elan are very small. I have asked for bigger and more hull windows in the Elan 380 but they could not do that. I had the people doing the hull windows for Najad install bigger hull windows (and cabin top windws) than the original in the Dehler, so it is very close to a semi-deck saloon right now. One other nice point with the Dehler is the targa arc and low wind screen. You can store the cockpit canopy against the arc and very quickly cover the cockpit as an outdoor deck saloon solution (as on a Malö).

Both the Elan and the Dufour are also slightly too big for me. I would like to stay under 12 m x 4 m x 2 m. I also like a mast at maximum 18.00 m. The Dehler is not fulfilling all these either but due to narrower stern and lower hull sides often goes as an under 12m long in marinas. Salona 41 was not around when I bought the Dehler and now feels a little bit outdated by all these new breeds. 

Beneteau Sense would be very interesting if it would be possible to do a 39 feet version at 3,95m wide. 

By the way, the Olsen 38 P that I had before was pretty much an slightly smaller version of the Luffe 43 DS and I am astonished that no one buys the moulds and starts making them again. I totally agree with what you say about the Luffe. It is sad that (until now - Beneteau Sense is a first step, I do not count the Jeanneau DS-series or Bavaria Vision as anything close to a deck saloon) no bigger manufacturer makes a deck saloon at a decent price. I do not think it is only rich retired eldery people that are interested in deck saloons. Hanse did a version of the 371 some years ago but not in any bigger numbers though. I wonder if it would be more of the right time for it now.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Salona 41 boat speed*



JAndersB said:


> Paulo,
> I have had a thorough look at Elan 410 and Dufour 40e, but not testsailed them. Both of them lack the double rudder option and also have quite a low ballast ratio. ....... *Salona 41 was not* around when I bought the Dehler and *now feels a little bit outdated by all these new breeds. *
> 
> Beneteau Sense would be very interesting if it would be possible to do a 39 feet version at 3,95m wide.
> ..


There is more to reply to your post, but let's begin with these points:

The Elan (and the Salona) are not " *quite low ballast ratio*" sailing boats. They have a "normal" Ballast ratio for these type of boats: *33%*. The Dufour is a bit "lighter" with 30%. But remember that your Oceanis had only 27% and the bulb was higher (CG higher) because these boats have a lot more draft.

I don´t understand why you want a Beneteau sense. They don't go well against the wind are heavy and slow and they have a low ballast ratio. A 39 ft version of a Sense would make the RM 1200 a very fast boat, by comparison  and the ballast ratio is similar to the Beneteau Oceanis.

I guess that when you talk about outdated you are not talking about aesthetics or are you? If you are it can make sense to have a Beneteau Sense but if we talk about performances that is an entire different story .

For me aesthetics are important but what really make a boat outdated is its sailing performance, after all it is for that they are designed, specially performance boats, to sail well. There are several ways to design a fast boat (shape of the hull, beam) and in the end what counts is how well the boat sails.

To understand the comparative sailing performance of the Salona 41 we can take a look at the last world ORCi championship (September 2010). The Salona 42, that is a 41 with only one steering wheel made overall third place in the fastest category.

ISAF : Countdown To 2010 ORCi World Championship Is On

Third place for Salona 37 and Salona 42 at ORCi World Championship in Flensburg, Germany - Salona Yachts

Of course, ORCi is an handicap championship with many races but with one big offshore race that has raced on the two ways, up and down (the boats went downwind and upwind) and it was raced with stormy conditions, with winds of 30k and over. That was what I wanted to really have a look at the performance of the Salona 42, and of course I was interested on the real times, not on the compensated times.

The Salona racing was a 42R, that does not mean a truly racing boat but only the standard Salona built to IBC specifications and with a lighter interior. The things that make it IBC are on the option list of a standard Salona, not a carbon boat like some other racing versions of cruising boats. That boat is used to cruise and even had a webasto heating system mounted.

On that race the Salona arrived in 5th place (real time).

The one that arrived first was a DK 46, a carbon cruiser/racer with 9 hours 10m 26s
dk yachts builders of high-tech composite yachts and boats
next a Ker 11.3 (a racing boat) with 9hours 51m 31s Race1 Ker 11.3
the third at only 28s, a Rodman 42, a racer that was won already ORC championships and that is one of the fastest race boats around
https://www.thedailysail.com/inshore/09/45637/rodman-42-wins-orc-european-championship
the fourth was a Dubois 40, a carbon/kevlar race boat with 10h 01m 45s.
the fifth was the Salona at only 3s from the Dubois
In sixth arrived a King 40, a very expensive and exclusive cruiser/racer with 10h 04m 10s
| Sailing World
In seventh the Grand Soleil 42R, a factory boat completely different from the cruising boat 
Grand Soleil - Cantiere del Pardo
another racing boat a Rainbow 42 arrived next
and then the second big production boat, a First 40 comes next wit 10h 12m 21s

and that was a good result behind come a lot of fast boats including some racers: IMX 40, a x-41, a Luffe 43, a Dubois 40, a Pacer 376, a Prima 38...and the two Elan 410, the fastest of them made it in 10h 48m 23s.

http://www.fsc.de/fileadmin/Regatta...Ci_Worlds_2010_-_Results_-_Alpha_-_Race_4.pdf

I confess that the study of those numbers helped me to understand better the Salona 41 performance. Actually they say in the shipyard that the 41 is going to be just a bit faster because they managed to make it slightly lighter.

Hei Anders, do you still think that the *Salona 41 is " a little bit outdated by all these new breeds"? *

Well regarding aesthetics it is a personal thing. Personally I find that the classic Salona look will make it fashion prof. I mean when boats that today seem very trendy were substituted by the next trend, they will look outdated but the Salona will continue to look.... Classic

Some photos of the World championship: First one the DK 46 with the Salona in hot pursuit. The second, the Salona 42.



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
there are so many variables to boat design and "your own favourite design" so it is very difficult to consider all of them all the time. I my self, partly as a result from this thread, has more or less given up the thought of finding a fast (going up on plane without spinnaker in above cruising gennaker wind) boat, since sailing for me is also bringing with me what I need for the trip and enjoying the scenery at anchor or beeing able to watch TV with more than 2 people onboard and our feets up on the sofa (strange, no one seems to think about that aspect among the designers).

So the Sense might be heavy, but instead it has beutiful views from inside and from the wheel and a well designed saloon. And a boat is OK to have low ballast ratio (and for me that is everything below 38%) if it depends on form stability AND has double rudders. The Oceanis was a wonderful boat to sail if winds and waves where constant. I have given many "racer cruisers", for instance Arcona 400, a match in open sea and windy but steady conditions, but they very very seldom stay that for a longer time. So you pass the optimal 15 degrees of heel and you need the rudders to stay in control since not even dumping the main helps if you have the sail area you want for a thrilling ride. The Oceanis with double rudders though would have prevented me from selling it and I even talked with a yard about rebuilding it. I already had rebuilt most of the deck set up to make it work as a sailing boat, not a caravan.

It is a total different story to talk about competitions and results in them. I do not have 5 guys on the rail nor somebody that all the time can release the main sheet when I come out from the wind shadow behind an island or is hit by a gust. I have had boats that are doing well in competitions but that are not good at all in loaded down state and sailed by myself only. So I personally look very little at competition results when choosing a boat, since to many unknown variables affect these. Instead I desperately try to gasp all variables that I think are important and that in itself is a very though job.

And, yes, I find the new wide sterned, chined, with double rudders and to some extent with pilot houses or small deck saloons much more sexy than many new but still traditional boats. 

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*On design - Ballast*



JAndersB said:


> Hi Paulo,
> there are so many variables to boat design and "your own favourite design" so it is very difficult to consider all of them all the time. ... And a boat is OK to have low ballast ratio (and for me that is everything below 38%) if it depends on form stability AND has double rudders. The Oceanis was a wonderful boat to sail if winds and waves where constant. I have given many "racer cruisers", for instance Arcona 400, a match in open sea and windy but steady conditions, but they very very seldom stay that for a longer time. So you pass the optimal 15 degrees of heel and you need the rudders to stay in control since not even dumping the main helps if you have the sail area you want for a thrilling ride. The Oceanis with double rudders though would have prevented me from selling it and I even talked with a yard about rebuilding it.


Anders,
Yes there are many parameters in boat design and exactly for that reason I believe you are wrong in assuming that a boat with low ballast ratio and single rudder is always prone to lose control at high angles of heel. I know for a fact that depends on many things including hull design, keel and rudder design, and I know that because my old boat a Bavaria 36 (with lead deep keel) sailed close to the wind with 25º/30º of heel, all the time (I like to go fast ). I know what I am talking about because I had on the cockpit an instrument to measured it. To lose the control of the boat you had to be seriously overpowered and you could feel it on the wheel well before it happens.



JAndersB said:


> It is a total different story to talk about competitions and results in them. I do not have 5 guys on the rail nor somebody that all the time can release the main sheet when I come out from the wind shadow behind an island or is hit by a gust. I have had boats that are doing well in competitions but that are not good at all in loaded down state and sailed by myself only. So I personally look very little at competition results when choosing a boat, since to many unknown variables affect these. Instead I desperately try to gasp all variables that I think are important and that in itself is a very though job.


Here I disagree with you, I mean, If someone is interested in a performance and fast boat (like me). Of course you have to know what you are looking at and the meaning of things, but a boat that is faster with 5 guys on the rail than another boat with 5 guys on the rail, will still be faster if you take from the rail of both boats the 5 guys. So a Salona 41 without guys on rails would be faster than a First 40, a Luffe 43 or an Elan 410 on the same condition.

Also, a boat that is stiff because is made taking into consideration the extra righting moment needed for racing will be more forgiven than a pure cruising boat, providing you have the right sail up. That need for extra stiffness on the cruiser-racers is the reason why the norm on the market among mass production boats in what regards ballast ratio for them is about 33% while the pure cruisers have normally a ratio between 27% and 30%. You say that for you everything below 38% is low ballast ratio, but there are very few boats with 38% ballast ratio and they are the exception and not the rule. More weight on the ballast than what is needed adds almost nothing and makes a boat heavier and slower.

Having only 27% ballast ratio on a beamy boat like the Vision that has not a big draft can be a big problem. True that the huge form stability will give it plenty of stability but that is when the hull has 15/20º of heel. Have it knock down and I don't know if with the weight of the radar and sails he comes back. Have the bad luck of having it capsized and upside down and that huge form stability will still be there, but this time with the boat inverted. It would take a long long time for the boat to re-right itself, maybe too long.

Regarding weight on a performance boat the rules are simple. Live light (and I have already understood that it is not your style) and have a bigger boat than what you would have needed if load capacity/speed was not a concern. And here again the way you think about this does not seem right to me. If you want a reasonable fast boat and know that you want to carry a lot of stuff, look for a bigger boat, not a smaller one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
The boats used for racing are (always) tuned very much, both in obvious matters as carbon mast and 3D-sails but also with deeper keels, super finished keel profiles, taken out anchor gear etc. and sailed by big crews so the results with the same boats in standard mode could be very different in my opinion. And since I am not choosing between a Salona 41, Elan 410 and others similar it is of low interest for me which win in super tuned mode. 

Having had boats with everything from 27% to 43% ballast ratio I know what I would prefer (as do buyers of X-yachts and Hallberg-Rassy for instance). The biggest reason for low ballast ratio on many boats are lower cost. Light keel, less reinforcements, ligther rig and so on. Cost saving can be huge.

An older Bavaria 36, and also my previous Dufour 38 classic and my current Degler all have narrower sterns than modern boats and yes, they can handle heel much better. They do not plane though. And, yes, add a heavy keel and still they do not plane  

I have also test sailed boats with dubble rudders, as for instance the Southerly 35 already 2005, and I can only agree with the testers of for instance the Elan 350, the difference in control is huge even if the high weight of the Southerly prevented it from taking off down wind.

So I had hoped for these new designs but if that meens I have to keep filling up my water tanks every day or leaving my bikes at home, they are not the solution either.


Life is always a question of compromises and boat choise even more so. A bigger boat is though not an alternative for me. I want to be able to moore bow to the cliffs here in our archipelago, with only myself as a crew, and also be able to find a marina space in the small danish harbours with 3 m between the poles for the aft mooring lines. I want to be able to crane out the mast in the autumn without 5 helpers and I want to get under some bridges 18.00 high. The search goes on....

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> The boats used for racing are (always) tuned very much, both in obvious matters as carbon mast and 3D-sails but also with deeper keels, super finished keel profiles, taken out anchor gear etc. and sailed by big crews so the results with the same boats in standard mode could be very different in my opinion. And since I am not choosing between a Salona 41, Elan 410 and others similar it is of low interest for me which win in super tuned mode.


Hi Andrews,
I hope you don't mind I continue this conversation. I am not trying to pick on you and I am enjoying it .

Yes you are right. I have said that you have to know what to look. Both the Elan and the Salona on the world championship had high specifications but if the hull of the boat and global design was not good, they could tune what they want but they would never make a decent racing boat.

This comparative performance between Salona 42 an Elan 410 had interested me specially because it is not only a comparison between two boats but between two very different hulls. The Salona has a more traditional hull, with less beam (3.82m to 3.91m) and a less broader stern. I was interested to see if the more slick Salona hull could be a match for the more powerful Elan hull and that in real time. Both proved to be fast boats (as the First 40) and the differences are negligible to me. What I was afraid was that the Salona could be fast on compensated time but not on real time. Well, I am enlighted about that.

Regarding that tune up that you are talking about it is also necessary to know what you get from a standard boat and what is the cost to make it a fast boat (tune up as you say). I have said before that I would chose the Salona 41 over the new Dehler 41 because I can get a tunned up boat by the price I can get a basic Dehler, and as you have implied, the difference is huge, specially with the Dehler

By the way are you not interested by the new Dehler 41? I expect it to have sweet interiors and finish.



JAndersB said:


> Having had boats with everything from 27% to 43% ballast ratio I know what I would prefer (as do buyers of X-yachts and Hallberg-Rassy for instance). The biggest reason for low ballast ratio on many boats are lower cost. Light keel, less reinforcements, ligther rig and so on. Cost saving can be huge.


Yes I agree about that. But that is not always the case when we are not talking about the ones that are fighting for the lower prices (Beneteau Oceanis, Dufour grand large, Jeanneau or Bavaria). The truth is that the boats should be light to sail well and add more ballast than what is necessary can make unnecessarily a boat slow. Besides you can not look only for the ballast ratio you have to look at draft and the way it is distributed on the keel: All in one torpedo on the bottom, on the bottom but more distributed or all distributed by the entire keel. These different situations can make a big diference.

One of the boats that has the ballast it needs by design and not to be cheap is the Salona. It has a stainless steel structure that made the distribution of all efforts by the hull. I have asked them if they could put more lead on the ballast if I wanted and they said they could and that would not be any structural problem with it. They half jocking said that if I wanted the keel of the 44 on the 41 it would be possible



JAndersB said:


> I have also test sailed boats with duble rudders, as for instance the Southerly 35 already 2005, and I can only agree with the testers of for instance the Elan 350, the difference in control is huge even if the high weight of the Southerly prevented it from taking off down wind.


That is interesting. I mean that you have tested the Southerly 35. I found it a very interesting boat. I have read a lot of good things about it and I remember a boat test (for a magazine) with 30k of wind. The boat not only behave admirably as have show a remarkable speed for that type of boat.

Do you mind to give us your impressions? I think that boat deserves a post

Regarding twin rudders I agree with you. But a single rudder can work perfectly well if it is big enough. Of course that is sometimes unpractical and on the cruising boats they make them not sufficient long to have a good control on limit situations. On cruiser racers they make them so long that you would better not chose a 2.00 draft boat because the rudder is dangerously close to the boat max draft and risks damage in any grounding.

Yes a two rudder system is in my opinion a better solution, but pay attention, that will make the boat very hard to maneuverer in the marina, specially backwards.



JAndersB said:


> So I had hoped for these new designs but if that meens I have to keep filling up my water tanks every day or leaving my bikes at home, they are not the solution either.
> 
> Life is always a question of compromises and boat choise even more so. A bigger boat is though not an alternative for me. I want to be able to moore bow to the cliffs here in our archipelago, with only myself as a crew, and also be able to find a marina space in the small danish harbours with 3 m between the poles for the aft mooring lines. I want to be able to crane out the mast in the autumn without 5 helpers and I want to get under some bridges 18.00 high. The search goes on....


Could not agree more. Choosing a boat is always a compromise and you are lucky to have a choice. Many times the choice is very limited...to what one can afford

Yes, I have seen photos of your archipelago. It is a wonderful place.

But you really have a lot of limitations regarding the boat you want. The choice is going to be difficult. Of course the perfect boat for all your needs seems to me the Nordship 38...but it is really an expensive boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Boreal 44 Boat of the year VM boat test*

New boat. Have you heard about the Boreal 44? Well that's a fantastic boat. The new one is a 44ft it is a long range cruiser the kind of boat to live aboard all time and to circumnavigate.

It was elected by the jury (and the readers) of Voile Magazine the 2010 boat magazine and that is amazing because this is not a boat that fulfills the program of the vast majority of sailors ,it is a very specific boat and to have won with this handicap says a lot about who impressed the testers were with its qualities.






Bretagne Info Nautisme : BorÃ©al 44, la victoire d'une Ã©quipe

The boat, as it was almost inevitable being a French passagemaker, it is an aluminum centerboarder, like the OVNI but had an incredible number of innovations: Lower ballast, centralization of weight/Ballast, foils near the ruder and an ice breaker stem are just some of the unusual features. The jury found out also that it was a pleasant and fast boat to sail with an excellent performance to windward (for this type of boat). And besides, it is a lot of boat for the money.

This is boat is an evolution of a 50ft and the designer is an experienced sailor that circumnavigates with kids, so he should know what is needed

The chief writer of Voile magazine said about it: «*The Boréal 44 is a concentrate of nautical thinking*», (redaction Voiles Magazine)

This is a dream boat for all who dream to circumnavigate with comfort and are not "plagued" with the virus of speed

Boreal 44 Expedition Aluminum Sailboat

Bienvenue chez Boreal



































































































































































They say about the boat:

The Boréal is an aluminium sailing yacht with a centerboard, designed for long offshore voyaging. This means that the approach is totally different from a 'holiday' cruising boat
built in aluminium (which, whilst not an absolute necessity for long voyages, remains the best choice of material) with a centerboard inside a keel box.

«I wanted to build a solid performance boat, a roomy all-rounder, as comfortable at sea as at anchor, easy to handle and to maintain. Our doghouse with an incorporated chart table is quite unique in this boat length category. »
A fast boat, simple to use and to maintain, which makes you feel at ease in Cowes harbour, in a Polynesian lagoon or even in the Furious Fifties. »

A well ballasted boat with a centerboard for going windward, without slamming in waves and with a balanced helm&#8230; (quite a challenge!) wit an ergonomic cockpit with 2 sheltered outside seats, allowing you to stand up and remove wet weather gear before entering the boat. The cockpit also had to offer good visibility to the helmsman while sailing and maneuvering. A boat with a true watertight companionway door,a doghouse with a huge chart table, allowing you a 360° view from inside whilst navigating.

A deck saloon and a living area with an outside view, full hull and deck insulation throughout for the tropics and high latitudes, large storage volumes and substantial diesel and water tank capacities, the ability to store large items such as a RIB, a paraglider or a motorcycle
a roomy and welcoming cockpit, a well thought out ventilation a centreboard, enabling you to beach the boat, and to visit many places off limits for a deep draught boat.

Profiled appendices to guarantee the best possible sailing performance, centralized weight (lead ballast cast in one piece, chain and anchor winch brought back to the mast) an ice-breaker stem with watertight bulkheads fore and aft double glazed portlights, the anchor winch at the base of the mast, allowing it to hoist the mainsail or someone up the mast without any effort, a writing desk in every cabin, where blue water children can do their homework&#8230;

The shape of the hull is modern with narrow entries, fine at the bow, a wide but not extreme beam, and a load carrying stern. The lines aft are relatively firm to obtain the maximum dynamic waterline, with a minimum of drag, remembering that whilst we hope to be able to surf before the tradewinds, this remains a displacement hull.The hull form is balanced and undergoes little distortion when heeled.
The keel and skeg has several functions:
It allows beaching and drying out without resting on the bottom plate. It forms an anti-drift surface increasing course stability, It effectively protects the propeller and rudder It lowers the centre of gravity of the boat (engine, ballast, batteries and diesel tanks are in the keel section)

The NACA profiled centreboard increases the boat's draught from 1m to 2m85 (Boréal 50). Changing the board's angle moves the anti-drift center forward and backwards, which can help to balance the rudder. The two 14° inclination and 4,5° incidence aft dagger boards, help to balance the boat when going to windward and reduce loads on the autopilot&#8230; This is done by adjusting the immersed (downwind) dagger board. Going downwind, with the centreboard (almost completely) raised and the two dagger boards down, the boat is on rails, gentle and pleasant to steer.

A lot of work has been carried out to centralise weight and lower the centre of gravity of the boat. The chain locker (carrying up to 250 kg of chain) is at the mast foot. The chain goes below the deck through a tube from the bow to the locker.The engine and the batteries are in the keel box, placing the CG of the boat 400 mm below the water line and about 1400 mm further forward than in the case of its "classic" alternative. The ballast is housed in the keel box. Compared to a centreboarder, this again lowers the CG by several dozen cms. Unlike normal practice, we don't pile up lead blocks as ballast. We construct moulds of every ballast compartment and we make massive lead blocks to fit each of them, resulting in a gain of 20 % in density. All this efforts contribute to an impressive stability curve.

LOA 13.80 m
LWL 11.63 m
Beam 4.30 m
Draft 1.02/2.48 m or 3' 3'' to 8' 1''
Displacement, fully equipped: 10 290 kg , 26, 638 lbs
Engine 55 hp (optional 75 hp)
Sail area : Mainsail 45 m² and Genoa 55 m²
Fuel: 600 l or 158 gals.
Fresh water: 760 l or 200 gals











Regards

Paulo


----------



## phollings

*Boreal 44*

I have a question that is related to the Boreal 44. BTW, thanks for the excellent photos. The photos of the boat in a beached state seem to show that it's painted below the waterline. My question relates to a potential maintenance issue. Inevitably, when beaching a boat, there must be some abrasion against the bottom due to the shifting forces of wind and current. I suppose this works through the paint down to bare metal. Wouldn't this initiate a blistering process in the paint surrounding the abraded area due to oxygen starvation? Wouldn't it be better (anti-fouling issues aside) to leave it unpainted? What's the "correct" thinking here?


----------



## PCP

Hello Phollings,

Wellcome to the thread and to sailnet 
I guess you would be right if the boat would not need anti-fouling.

I am not an expert on aluminum boats, but the French have 40 years of experience making aluminum boats. They are low maintenance boats and are the ones that they use most for extensive voyaging and I am sure that their accumulated experience (that is huge) will provide you with the right answer.

Unfortunately I don't have that experience and can only guess but I can tell you that almost all the boats are still in th water and going strong, even the old ones 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## slap

*Boreal 44*

On the Boreal 44, it looks like the chain is kept near the mast - very nice.


----------



## PCP

slap said:


> On the Boreal 44, it looks like the chain is kept near the mast - very nice.


Yes, and 250 kg of chain is a lot of meters that can be very useful in really bad weather.

"A lot of work has been carried out to centralise weight and lower the centre of gravity of the boat. *The chain locker (carrying up to 250 kg of chain) is at the mast foot. The chain goes below the deck through a tube from the bow to the locker*.The engine and the batteries are in the keel box, placing the CG of the boat 400 mm below the water line and about 1400 mm further forward than in the case of its "classic" alternative. The ballast is housed in the keel box. Compared to a centreboarder, this again lowers the CG by several dozen cms. Unlike normal practice, we don't pile up lead blocks as ballast. We construct moulds of every ballast compartment and we make massive lead blocks to fit each of them, resulting in a gain of 20 % in density. All this efforts contribute to an impressive stability curve".

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

*Racer Cruiser 37 Footers*

Hi Paulo

I have followed your posts on interesting sailboats for some time now and must say that you have taught me a great deal!

I live in Cape Town which is quite limited in terms of it's cruising potential - no islands, interesting coastlines and cold water - and so I intend buying a yacht and leaving it in the Mediterranean where my partner and I can go cruising initially for 3 months of the year and then in a few years for 6 months of the year. There are obviously many aspects to consider in terms of where to leave the yacht including VAT, mooring costs, hard fees, maintenance etc etc and whether to let a school or charter company use the yacht when we are not using it. I am currently inclined to leave the yacht in Croatia as it is very beautiful and geographically well positioned, to visit Greece, Italy and Turkey. Your thoughts on this as regards mooring, leaving the boat on the hard, VAT etc would be most useful.

As regards which yacht, my partner and I are not racers but would like to have a yacht which performs well; we participate in twilight racing in Cape Town and know for sure that we want a yacht which is exhilirating to sail. We are therefore interested in performance coastal cruisers as a category as opposed to bluewater cruisers. I started out looking at the large production boats - Beneteau Oceanis 37, Jeanneau 36i Performance and the Bavaria Cruiser 36 - and have since being looking at other brands including Hanse, Elan and Salona. We are keen on a yacht which is around 37 foot and which we can buy second hand for around Euro100,000.

Our shortlist of yachts, after comparing key stats for these to the X38c which I know is one of your favourites and which we have used as a kind of benchmark, includes the following which fall into our budget:

* Hanse 375 - D/L - 187, B/D - 31.8%, SA/D - 24.8, L/B - 3.03, motion comfort - 22.3

Very easy to sail, interiors don't suite everyone although I like them, a racer cruiser that is quite contemporary, loads of options

* Salona 37 - D/L - 167, B/D - 37.3%, SA/D - 26.7, L/B - 3.14, motion comfort - 20.6

Definitely a racer cruiser, I like the way they do their hull with the ss skeleton but I think the boat looks quite dated with its small ports and is too light - the later models are heavier, look better but are over our budget.

* Elan Impression 384 - D/L - 211; B/D - 32.6%; SA/D - 20; L/B - 2.95; motion comfort - 23.5

More of a cruiser/racer than the other 2 so not directly comparable but a very good compromise in terms of seaworthiness, performance and comfort and quite underrated from what I can see. Probably closer in nature to the X38c

I love the Elan 380 but it is out of our budget and the elan 350 is probably too small and also too expensive after you have added all the options.

I know that you are very keen on the Salona in particular (Salona 41) and also like the Elan's. I was wandering if you had any specific views on the yachts listed above - pluses and minuses - and if you feel I have missed out any other obvious candidate? the dehler, grand soleil and arcona yachts are awesome but obove our budget I am afraid.

I hope you don't mind me asking you all of these questions but you are clearly very experienced and I you don't seem to mind sharing all of your knowledge.

All the best

David


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> I have followed your posts on interesting sailboats for some time now and must say that you have taught me a great deal!
> 
> I live in Cape Town which is quite limited in terms of it's cruising potential - no islands, interesting coastlines and cold water - and so I intend buying a yacht and leaving it in the Mediterranean where my partner and I can go cruising initially for 3 months of the year and then in a few years for 6 months of the year. There are obviously many aspects to consider in terms of where to leave the yacht including VAT, mooring costs, hard fees, maintenance etc etc and whether to let a school or charter company use the yacht when we are not using it. I am currently inclined to leave the yacht in Croatia as it is very beautiful and geographically well positioned, to visit Greece, Italy and Turkey. Your thoughts on this as regards mooring, leaving the boat on the hard, VAT etc would be most useful.
> 
> As regards which yacht, my partner and I are not racers but would like to have a yacht which performs well; we participate in twilight racing in Cape Town and know for sure that we want a yacht which is exhilirating to sail. We are therefore interested in performance coastal cruisers as a category as opposed to bluewater cruisers. I started out looking at the large production boats - Beneteau Oceanis 37, Jeanneau 36i Performance and the Bavaria Cruiser 36 - and have since being looking at other brands including Hanse, Elan and Salona. We are keen on a yacht which is around 37 foot and which we can buy second hand for around Euro100,000.
> 
> Our shortlist of yachts, after comparing key stats for these to the X38c which I know is one of your favourites and which we have used as a kind of benchmark, includes the following which fall into our budget:
> 
> * Hanse 375 - D/L - 187, B/D - 31.8%, SA/D - 24.8, L/B - 3.03, motion comfort - 22.3
> 
> Very easy to sail, interiors don't suite everyone although I like them, a racer cruiser that is quite contemporary, loads of options
> 
> * Salona 37 - D/L - 167, B/D - 37.3%, SA/D - 26.7, L/B - 3.14, motion comfort - 20.6
> 
> Definitely a racer cruiser, I like the way they do their hull with the ss skeleton but I think the boat looks quite dated with its small ports and is too light - the later models are heavier, look better but are over our budget.
> 
> * Elan Impression 384 - D/L - 211; B/D - 32.6%; SA/D - 20; L/B - 2.95; motion comfort - 23.5
> 
> More of a cruiser/racer than the other 2 so not directly comparable but a very good compromise in terms of seaworthiness, performance and comfort and quite underrated from what I can see. Probably closer in nature to the X38c
> 
> I love the Elan 380 but it is out of our budget and the elan 350 is probably too small and also too expensive after you have added all the options.
> 
> I know that you are very keen on the Salona in particular (Salona 41) and also like the Elan's. I was wandering if you had any specific views on the yachts listed above - pluses and minuses - and if you feel I have missed out any other obvious candidate? the dehler, grand soleil and arcona yachts are awesome but obove our budget I am afraid.
> 
> I hope you don't mind me asking you all of these questions but you are clearly very experienced and I you don't seem to mind sharing all of your knowledge.
> 
> All the best
> 
> David


Thanks David for your nice words. Welcome to this thread and welcome to sailnet.

About Croatia I have charted a boat 15 days last summer and I have loved it. I know well West Med (Coast of Spain, Balearic Islands, Sardinia, Elba, Corsica and part of Italy) and can tell you that Croatia is an incredible cruising ground, not only by the variety of sheltered places but because it offer almost always sheltered waters, no matter the wind direction, behind the Islands (+ 2000) even if the wind can be in the spring quite strong.

Regarding Croatia and places to have the boat I am picking and when I finish I will tell you, if you want ( by private message) my findings. Before that I would not post it on the net

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/destinations/68555-croatia-place.html

and take a look at the marinas. There are more but these give you an idea about the price. It is quite hard to get an annual place there, most of the marinas are full:

Adriatic Croatia International Club // aci-club.hr

You can see prices and download a brochure and it will give you an idea about the place (beautiful).

Regarding the boat the Hanse choice seems well to me but the Hanse are tricky boats to buy. Their standard boat is quite naked and you can buy a huge quantity of extras that can make it a very good sailing boat...and also an an expensive boat. You have to look well at what you are buying. They can be very different, starting by the hull (epoxy or not).

The Elan 385 is a different boat, as to do more with the Oceanis line. I find it better built but it is not a boat that you can enjoy sailing as you do with an Elan, First or Salona. I would not look at that motion comfort ratio. In my opinion it is quite meaningless (you don't know if a boat has fine entries, the bow shape and so on).

Used boats are much dependent of what you can find but if you are staying in Croatia you can buy a boat with the VAT not paid. It will be less expensive and you still can sail to Greece or any other place for a 3 months period. But probably the best idea would be to buy a boat with the leasing going on. That means that the boat would cost you less, you will pay a rent each month and in the end the boat stays in your name (there are so many boats in leasing because that way you pay only 50% VAT and if you look on the adds it says on many that the boat can be sold with leasing).

Regarding boats that offer good interior space and that are on your price range I would add the Salona 40 and The Elan 40 and my preferred would be the Dufour 40 performance even if this one goes slightly out of your budget, but with a leasing going on....

I know that you have talked about 36ft/37ft but I am afraid that if you go for a boat that size you would have to be more concerned with interior storage, size of water tanks and so on. What I want to say is that if you go for a 37ft you would have to go for a more pure cruising type of boat, like the Oceanis 36 or a Bavaria 38. This kind of boats have the same cruising capacities (tankage, storage) as the more fast and enjoyable to sail Elan 40 or Dufour 40, but with less speed, less sailing fun and less seaworthiness, if you ever consider to cross the Atlantic or bring it to South Africa.

I know, I have sailed many years in a Bavaria 36 and when I went to boat shows with my wife I was always hearing her complaing about the lack of storage and tankage of much bigger boats compared with the 36ft we had.

If you really want a 37ft I believe the Hanse 375 is the one that offers the best compromise between storage, speed and sailing pleasure...but as I have said on the used market you really have to look at each boat before buying, they are all different even the ones that are supposedly equal

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

Hi Paolo

"Regarding Croatia and places to have the boat I am picking and when I finish I will tell you, if you want ( by private message) my findings. Before that I would not post it on the net" 

I am most certainly keen to hear your findings via private message!

Thanks for the input. Any idea of how I can go about finding previous models of Beneteau's First collection. They have a new website which looks very sparkly but I don't see any reference to previous models?

All the best, David


----------



## blt2ski

Rumor has it, a 379 will be on the market this fall, no details yet, but it will not be a direct replacement for the 36i, details are to be like the 409/439 etc..........more to follow.........

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Rumor has it, a 379 will be on the market this fall, no details yet, but it will not be a direct replacement for the 36i, details are to be like the 409/439 etc..........more to follow.........
> 
> Marty


That makes sense. Do you know Jeanneau is preparing a 409 to race in IRC 2?

They have a longer mast dyform rigging and top sails. The skipper will be Hervé Piveteau, winner of the Mini series in 2007. He is also the guy that is in charge of the Jeanneau marketing. It seems that Jeanneau is surrounded by guys that love fast sailing and that's a good sign

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

I had not heard about the racing in IRC2. I did see a note on Facebook from jeanneau USA, that a 409 won its first race a week or so ago. There is a "P"erformance version that looks way hotter than the "i" P versions. The mast was about 3-4' taller vs typically a foot for the i versions. Kinda one of them, WHY only a foot? Maybe this current hull form will handle more mast height along with the SArea, then depending upon the keel design on the deep version.......

The fellow that broke the 379 news on the owners site, thinks a 319, 349 and perhaps a 469 might arrive in 2012..... hard to say. The 379 has a full shower seperate from the Head and sink even with a 3 room setup. Usually only the twin bed room setups got that, the triple rooms got an all in one shower/head/sink. Twin wheels also. No design concept pics as of yet. Probably (my swag) a month or two out. 

The 349 might be a nice boat for my useage if I can afford one, depending upon the design specs. Especially if it is closer to 35 than 34'. I liked the size of the SO/SF35. The SF35 was quite quick for what it was too. 

Right now, jeanneaus design spec is performance cruiser, but reality is, they are pushing well into the cruise/race, almost into the slower nicer interior of some of the race/cruiser boat IMHO. Need to get to the local dealer and look at the 409 they have in stock one of these days.....

marty


----------



## PCP

Something is changing in what regards the Design of performance cruisers. The first was probably the Pogo 10.50 (with its 3 years waiting list) but the first really mass production boat was the Elan 350. What have these boats that made them special?

They were not designed for handicap racing, they were not optimized for ORCi, IRC nor for any rating system, they were optimized for pure speed and performance, not for handicap racing. Optimizing a boat for handicap racing is making it unnecessarily slow and not developing it to its full speed potential.

And I say that it is changing because Maxy yacht, a very Conservative brand that makes beautiful and expensive conventional performance yachts is taking a completely new approach on the development of its new 11m boat. They have sent inquiries to all the ones that love their yachts, me included asking how should the boat be developed and maximized: For ORCi, for IRC, SRS or just to its max potential, fast and fun, no mater handicap racing.

Well the news are that 76% of the sailors said FAST and FUN, F...Handicap racing and the results translated in design seems to be these:










I like it

Now compare this boat with the other boats on its line:

Startpage

I tell you, something is changing on the way performance cruising boats are designed


----------



## blt2ski

The Fast is Fun IIRC started with the Santa Cruz line in CA years ago. J's IIRC are still designed this way to a degree. Design to be fast, easy to sail, the ratings will be what they will be! In the end, who cares, as long as one likes the boats. Good to see this type of design speak/quest if you will, and not make some of the abominable creations IOR created in the later stages years ago. Reality is, some unsafe boats too! 

Need to go back to setting up some spin pole outhaul lines to try tomorrow. have quite the fleet to deal with.....11 total boats, I am the third slowest per say, fasted boat is about 33 secs a mile faster. BUT< 4 boats are slower, one at 3, 3 at 6 secs slow, one ea 3 and 6 faster.......7 of 11 boats pretty much 1d in nature, all about 27-31' in length...... 15-25 knots of wind predicted..... should be fun!

marty


----------



## blt2ski

Here is the boats and splits.......


BlueJeans  39742  C & C 27-3  201  Milltown    
 Lady too  59382  San Juan 28  201  STYC   
 Scotch & Soda  5008  Catalina 30 Sloop  201  Milltown   
 Rev  447  Thunderbird  198  STYC   
 Amoretto  79104  Jeanneau  195  CYCE   
 Moonshine  27696  Yankee 30  192  STYC   
 Cricket  0  Irwin Citation 31  189  STYC   
 Ablissian  79148  Cascade 36  180  STYC   
 Evergreen Dreams  1409  Catalina 36 MKII  174  RVYC   
 Sea Trek II  69326  Catalina 34  171  STYC   
 Boadicea  n/a  Ericson 32-3  162  


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo, 

Do you have any more info, ie a link to the 409 being setup?


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

I would agree, it started with smaller builders, now a BIG builder or two is finally doing the, design a fast boat for the masses. I'm recalling seeing that an E350 maybe showing up here in the Puget Sound/Salish Sea area of the US/Canada where I am. J111 shows up in June, first new boat J dealer has sold in 3-4 yrs IIRC. Maybe the depression/recession is ending to a degree here locally. Altho the Jeanneau Dealer has been selling boats. 8 or so ea of the 36i/39i. Also surprising how many of the 45-50' DS models too.

Anyway, off to motor the boat south for a race, starting to get light here at 6;45 am or there abouts.

marty


----------



## daviid

> What is your time table regarding buying the boat and living part of the year on Croatia?


Hi Paolo

We are planning to travel to Croatia this year to charter for 2 weeks on 2 different yachts.(any advice on reputable charter companies in Croatia outside of Sunsail and Moorings would be welcome ) I would really like to try the Hanse 375 and the Hanse 400. Next year we will do the same on another 2 yachts on our shortlist and then we will make a decision. I am not looking to buy new but rather to buy a yacht that is 3 to 5 years old, in great condition, hopefully with all the bells and whistles and look to score around 30% off the new price. That way, we should have relatively low maintenance and we can then learn all the DIY that is needed as we go along.

Between now and then, there is a lot for me to do including deciding where to winter the yacht - I haven't given up on Croatia on account of pricing just yet, but will also include Turkey in my search - 6 months on the hard and 6 months in the water seems like the way to go.

Also, my partner and I are relatively new to yachting and so we need to keep going to school  and to keep racing on Wednesday evenings as crew members.

All the best

David


----------



## daviid

Hi Marty and Paolo

Thanks for the info on the new Jeanneau.

The Jeanneau 36i Perforamnce model is a yacht which I have a considered for a long time. I love the design and I think the interior is stunning. What is swayed me to look elsewhere though is the boats displacement. It is a lot lighter than some of its competitors which negativel impacts on it's stiffness (the ballast ratio B/D on the performance model is 27.1% and that is it's light displacement ratio. I understand that there are other factors like form stability, shape and design of hull and keel etc etc but still ...


By the way, the SA/D ratio for the performance model versus the standard model is quite different (as in 10%). The difference in mast height - 16.75 versus 16.35 - and the feathering prop obviously do make a difference. SA/D - standard - 20.5; SA/D - performance - 22 

All the best

David


----------



## blt2ski

David,

Paulo had a thread on here a while ago, and it was in some magazines about Jan to march this year, on an SO37 that lost its keel during a charter, and it took two other charter's to realize the keel was off the boat. So yes, that does show that hull form can help stability. BUT, with that, I do also see how the B/D being higher helps too. Altho a less B/D with a large chunk of lead way down can be better than a chuck of lead up higher creating a higher B/D ratio, but the righting moment is not as high. With that in mind, try to find that ratio, ie righting moment along with the B/D of the boat. I would prefer a light B/D with a higher righting moment.

oops, on edit, it was back in November for the thread, so it happened last summer.....
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...ling-without-noticing-they-had-lost-keel.html

You are correct, SAD is about 10% more, but 22-1 around my part of the world would be good, but 24 to 26-1 in days like yesterday for me, where the wind is less than 8 knots all day, can make a BIG difference in if you stay moving.

Marty


----------



## mitiempo

Marty

Says something about the experience level of charterers as well I think.


----------



## PCP

*J111 movie*



blt2ski said:


> ..
> I would agree, it started with smaller builders, now a BIG builder or two is finally doing the, design a fast boat for the masses. I'm recalling seeing that an E350 maybe showing up here in the Puget Sound/Salish Sea area of the US/Canada where I am. *J111 shows up in June, first new boat J dealer has sold in 3-4 yrs IIRC. Maybe the depression/recession is ending to a degree here locally*. ...


No, that's because the J111 is a hell of a boat

The boat is making a great sensation on Europe where it arrived some months back. Sailing magazines are testing it and loving it

It's a beautiful boat it is a pity that the interior, that is nice clean and light, is a bit sketchy for more than cruising a week end. I know, this one is a racer, but even racers cruise with the family.

Yachtingworld had tested the boat and said very nice things about it (I hope they don't mind that I post their conclusions here):



















Now, that really makes me wonder: *"Compared with the J105 is like stepping into a Sports boat" *How!!!!























































Take a look at these videos (what a boat )











Sail-World.com : The latest J Boat, reviewed

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

It does look like a hell of a boat, I liked the 97 a bit better, but probably because of size restraints I want, or some such thing like a nicer interior.....BUT, if a 111 showed up in my slip, or an older 109........I'd still have a  on my face! IIRC the 111 is supposed to replace the 105 in that side of the line vs the 97/109 genre, being more cruisy and a nicer interior. 

Marty


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Hi Paolo
> 
> We are planning to travel to Croatia this year to charter for 2 weeks on 2 different yachts.(any advice on reputable charter companies in Croatia outside of Sunsail and Moorings would be welcome ) I would really like to try the Hanse 375 and the Hanse 400. Next year we will do the same on another 2 yachts on our shortlist and then we will make a decision. I....
> Also, my partner and I are relatively new to yachting and so we need to keep going to school  and to keep racing on Wednesday evenings as crew members.
> 
> .


David, 
regarding the choice of carters in Croatia take a look here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/chartering/66333-croatia-charter-companies-2.html

Last year I have sailed there this beauty for 2 weeks:










If you are not very experienced I would recommend you to sail a 34/36ft sailboat.

You have among the ones that are fast and fun the Elan 350, the Salona 34 and the Dufour 34 performance. The obvious charter for this kind of boats are the Croatian importers, for the Dufour and the Elan and the shipyard for the Salona. If you want to try a Hanse, try on the Hanse Croatian importer, but I would say that it is time to book otherwise you are not going to have a good boat for the summer. This kind of boats are not the typical charter boat. There are not many and they are booked early.

I would say that the ideal would be to charter a Hanse 355 and any of the above. You will find out that they are completely different boats and will very quickly know what type you would prefer. When you know about the type than you can narrow your search on the models you prefer.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Allures 45 movie*

Some months ago I have posted the preliminary pictures of the Allures 45. Now the boat is on the water and it looks great. Lets take another look:

The Allures 45 has the same program as the Boreal 43 posted some days back and the same as the OVNI range. They are long range aluminum cruisers with a lifting board.

The OVNI is the less expensive but also the less performant (and I am not saying the OVNIS are bad, they are good sailing boats) but the allures has profiled rudders and centerboard and has a deck in composite to lower the gravity center. They have a better stability curve and with a 3m draft (1.05) they can go upwind with ease and they are faster.

The Allures 45 had the heavy responsibility to replace the original Allures, the 44 and it seems to me that it has done that well and that was not easy cause the 44 was a great boat

So if you are thinking on a circumnavigation and want a solid boat that can go everywhere and is not slow, take a look at this one. You could chose a lot worse

Take a look how they sail. Impressive for that kind of boat I would say:






Take also a good look at the interior, one that permits a good interface with the exterior in what regards views:

Nos voiliers


























[/URL][/IMG]




























Nos voiliers

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Dear Paulo,
You mentioned earlier a french test between a Pogo 12.50, Dufour 40e and Wauquiez Opium 39. I have tried to find it in a format that Ican run through Google translate but I did not even find a pdf. Could you or some one else here that understand french make a summary, especially about the comparison between opium and Dufour. The Opium is high up on my short list now.
Brgds, Anders


----------



## PCP

*On design - Narrow boat / beamy boat*



PCP said:


> ....
> You should read this boat test:
> 
> YouTube - Match au sommet voiliers de 40 pieds !
> 
> They have made a comparison between a Dufour 40e, an Opium 39 and a Pogo 40 cruising (12.50 prototype). The wind was a good force 5 and the sea had short waves. Close to the wind the speed were the same (7.5), with the Opium (with a worst sail, the original was stolen) making less 5º to the true wind.
> 
> They have said that the Dufour is a little better with winds lighter than 20K and the Pogo a bit better over 20k. The Dufour is more comfortable and passes better the short waves, the Pogo passes in power (I believe that is why he needs more wind to be faster than the Dufour).
> 
> Downwind the Pogo rules with 12k with the other boats making 8/9K.
> 
> ...


Anders,

Do you have saw that post?

That's about it. I would have made a much better test , the French are sometimes a bit vague. I would have liked that test to be performed by Yacht magazine (Germans) and we would then have a better and more informative test.

I have already test sailed the Opium 39 and I have loved it. I only did not like the performance under engine, but I think that it would be the same with the Pogo. It has probably to do with the hull shape. As I had loved the Opium speed, the big surprise on that test for me was the Dufour 40e performance. It was really very good, and they say the boat is more comfortable upwind and slightly faster with less wind.

The head sail of the Opium 39 was not appropriated (it was stolen and substituted with an improvised one) and they say that the boat was making less 5º upwind probably on account of that. I believe that with a lot of wind (+20K) the Opium would be faster than the Dufour but with 20K they say they were going the same speed Downwind.

With 20K the Pogo is really faster downwind (about 3 K with 20K wind).

After reading that test and another test between a boat very similar to the Pogo and a J 133, where they concluded that the Pogo like type is only better for long downwind cruising, kind of trade winds, I had asked myself what kind of winds I normally get?

On the Med I have not done a lot of downwind sailing, but I can remember a lot of upwind sailing so I started to look for a fast boat with good downwind performance but mostly with an excellent up wind performance and also one with an outstanding performance in weak wind cause I really don't want to turn the engine on. I have sailed many times with weak winds and with the Bavaria I had to motor a lot. I want also a boat with a comfortable interior one that I can enjoy.

Taking all these in consideration I have decided that for me the Salona 41 was the boat that make more sense. It is faster than the Dufour 40e and after what they say on that comparative test, that's fast enough for me but I guess that with a 2.25m draft it makes no sense to you.

But they are all fast boats (those on the test and the Salona) and the Pogo is the fastest downwind no doubt and by a large margin. In the end it is a personal decision that has much to do with what you like. For giving this kind of money for a boat you really have to like it a lot not only in what regards sailing but also in what regards living aboard, and off course, you have to love the way it looks and be proud of it.

I have never been inside a cruising Pogo but I think it really is to spartan for me, not for sailing but for living aboard for extended periods. But maybe you are not living aboard much time and that is not much important to you. If I was in your place I would take a look at the interior of an Opium and if you and your wife find it a lot more comfortable than the one from the Pogo and if you think that is important, I would test sail the Opium 39 just to see if it is fast enough and fun enough for you. After all it seems to me that you want a fast boat with small draft and the options are not many

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
Thank you for your feed back. As I wrote before, these kinds of contradictionary test results, if one can say that, is still confusing me. Yacht and other magazines praise the Opium and Elan 350 as the future and as very fun and fast boats. At the same time they do not seem that fast and not so willing to plane downwind.

A shallow draft is not a must for us even if the 2,15 on the Opium starts to be close to acceptable.
Regards, Anders


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## bb74

Originally Posted by PCP 
....
You should read this boat test:

YouTube - Match au sommet voiliers de 40 pieds !

....

that was the "old" POGO 40.


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## PCP

bb74 said:


> Originally Posted by PCP
> ....
> You should read this boat test:
> 
> YouTube - Match au sommet voiliers de 40 pieds !
> 
> ....
> 
> that was the "old" POGO 40.


Yes you are right, but as you know the Pogo 12.50 is really a 40ft boat. I don't think that there is any relevant difference in what regards performance (that was also the testers opinion, and if I understood well the shipyard opinion).

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi Paulo,
> Thank you for your feed back. As I wrote before, these kinds of contradictionary test results, if one can say that, is still confusing me. Yacht and other magazines praise the Opium and Elan 350 as the future and as very fun and fast boats. At the same time they do not seem that fast and not so willing to plane downwind.
> 
> A shallow draft is not a must for us even if the 2,15 on the Opium starts to be close to acceptable.
> Regards, Anders


Anders,

They are very fast boats, and the Pogo 12.50 is the fastest downwind but we are comparing them with other performance very fast boats. The 12.50 is faster downwind but would be less fast and comfortable upwind with waves and a formed sea than for instance a Salona 41, a J122 or a First 40 (performance version). At least is what the race results show and not with the cruising version but with the racing version. I have already posted about the comparative results on several Sydney-Hobarts, mostly an upwind race.

And those other boats also plane downwind, just not as easy and not so fast.

I would say that in what regards performance boats you have two tendencies that are represented by those boats we are talking about: J122, First, Salona, X yacht, Luffe, and on the other side: Elan 350, Pogo, Kobe and so on.

The first are better upwind (with waves) the second are better downwind (that does not mean that they are slow upwind) and more easy to sail, specially downwind.

They are all fun and fast boats. The choice is yours. If you have doubts just try both types.

If you can accept a 2.1 draft I would not go for a swing keel, I would be afraid of maintenance problems. Mechanically that seems to me a lot more complicated than a lifting keel and the forces needed are a lot bigger.

Even the Pogo has fixed keels with reasonable draft, as the Salona or the J122 ( a like it a lot, with the exception of the price ).

Regards

Paulo


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## EricKLYC

I also read the so-called "comparative test" in Bateaux last year and certainly agree that it was a not well designed. But there were also no real surprises: the heavier Dufour was most comfortable upwind although the Opium and Pogo were not slower. As soon as one bears down a little, the lighter and more beamy Opium and Pogo beat the Dufour, except dead downwind when the symmetrical spinaker on the Dufour is more efficient.

This is also what we experienced during a one week sail with the Pogo 10.50. Not trying to sail too close to the wind makes the yacht much easier, with no real loss of VMG. An experienced Pogo 40 skipper we met before put it this way: _these boats sail like a 470 dinghy, just bear down a little and enjoy_.

The tested Pogo 40 and the Pogo 12.50, which is the new cruising version, are quite different. No more runners and not even a backstay but only very aft speaders, no more ballast tanks but only a distinctive chine in the hull. And very different deck and interior lay-outs, that have been redesigned for cruising purposes.

The most disputable item is again the interior, not only for Paulo  , but at least it worked very well for us on the 10.50. Although I must admit that the broad smiles on both our son's faces when sailing double digit speeds probably somewhat influenced my beloved wife's opinion...

But I see you don't like canting keels either, Paulo. Although the Finot system seems to be well validated, starting with the First 22, then the First Class 8 and now on the Pogo 10.50, plus an increasing number of other French brands like Django and Malango. Have I missed the bad news?

Anyway, we will of course keep you updated as soon as our 12.50 will have become reality (ETA: next October).

Best regards,

Eric


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## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> ...
> But I see you don't like canting keels either, Paulo. Although the Finot system seems to be well validated, starting with the First 22, then the First Class 8 and now on the Pogo 10.50, plus an increasing number of other French brands like Django and Malango. Have I missed the bad news?
> 
> Anyway, we will of course keep you updated as soon as our 12.50 will have become reality (ETA: next October).


No, I don't know of any reports regarding problems with the swinging keels of any of those boats and I like the concept it is just that I don't really need a small draft and I am a believer of the principle "Keep it simple".

The keel of the 12.50 is much heavier than any of those boats and the efforts to put the keel up and down are really big, but if the system is well designed and dimensioned should work well and give you some years without maintenance, but it is one more boat system that sooner or later will need maintenance.

Saying that if I lived on the North Coast of France, England or Holland, I would probably trade that possible maintenance issue by the advantages the low draft gives on those regions

Yes, please keep me posted. It is possible that I manage to have a boat late on the next summer, if so you are invited to sail it and then we can really compare the plus and minus of each boat just for the fun of it

Regards

Paulo


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## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> It is possible that I manage to have a boat late on the next summer, if so you are invited to sail it and then we can really compare the plus and minus of each boat just for the fun of it


And I would of course be very happy if there would be any chance to welcome you on board our boat Paulo, not only to have your expert opinion.

So you quite made up your mind about your own new yacht? I think everybody on this thread is very interested to hear about Paulo's final choice!


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## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> And I would of course be very happy if there would be any chance to welcome you on board our boat Paulo, not only to have your expert opinion.
> 
> So you quite made up your mind about your own new yacht? I think everybody on this thread is very interested to hear about Paulo's final choice!


I would be very glad to meat you and sail a Pogo 12.50 but I am no expert. I like boats and I like to learn but I have yet a lot to learn .

Regarding my boat that means my choice, I hope it is an informed one, but that's just my choice of compromises including price and that's why I prefer to say nothing till I manage (or not) the boat I am after. If not I would probably buy a second hand boat and that would limit my choices to what is available.

If I had the money for it an Opium 39 would be an option. I am not sure about the Pogo 12.50, not about the sailing, that would be perfect, but about the interior. Never been inside one and I just don't know if it suits me (and my wife) for living aboard for some months. Anyway that it is not a problem because it is also too expensive for my budget .

Anders,
some more information about the Opium 39.

I think Erick is right and that in open courses the Opium 39 is faster than the Dufour 40e even if a bit slower than the Pogo 12.50.

I have already said that my preferred magazine is Yacht magazine, a German one and I like the way they test the boats. They have said very well from the Dufour 40e, more than very well from the Salona 42 (the 41 with one wheel) but they really went ballistic with the Opium 39.

The measured speeds where:

*Dufour 40e *with 11 to 15K wind:

40º - *7.2K* 60º - *8K* 90º - *8.7K * 130º - *8.3K* 180º - *7.2K*

Engine at 80% (40Ps) - *7.5K*

*Salona 42* with 8 to 10K wind:

40º - *5.8K * 60º - *7.3K* 90º - *8.3K* 130º - *7.0K *170º - *6.2K*

Engine at 80% (40Ps) - *8K*

*Opium 39 *with 8 to 11K wind:

45º - *7.9K * 60º - *9.3K* 90º - *9.0K* 130º - *7.8K *

Engine at 80% (29 Ps) - *5.5K* ( I have tried one with a 40 PS engine and the speed was not much better).

They have not tested the Pogo 12.50 but I am sure it will be a bit faster than the Opium 39 with identical sailing characteristics.

This is not the same has having the boats at the water at the same time but will give at least an idea.

Anders, I hope this helps, but nothing as test sail the boats if you can

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Thank you Eric and Paulo for the extended information. 

The low speed while motoring for the opium (and Pogo?) is not a problem in itself for me since I do not like motoring either and prefer to wait for the right wind. It is little bit strange though, if it would be because of big wetted area at low speed the boats should be slow in light winds and it seems that the opium is not. 

A little bit disturbing is that the Yacht test was conducted in so light wind. Doing 9 knots in 8-11 knots of wind is of course nice but it seems like that is also the limit, and that not that much more happens in 15-20 knots of wind, as in the french test. As I said before my main dissapointment with traditional performance/cruiser designs is that they do not take off and give a thrilling ride in 18-25 knots wind speed (without a crew and a spinnaker) and it seems that only a light Pogo 12.50 does that.

A rather well equipped Opium 39 costs appr €260 000 today.

Rgrds, Anders.


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## PCP

JAndersB said:


> ...
> The low speed while motoring for the opium (and Pogo?) is not a problem in itself for me since I do not like motoring either and prefer to wait for the right wind. It is little bit strange though, if it would be because of big wetted area at low speed the boats should be slow in light winds and it seems that the opium is not.


Probably it has to do with the absence of any hell. The boat when heeled has not a big wetted area. Take a look at a comparison between the wet area of a lighter boat with a hull like the Pogo with the wet area of an heavier and more traditional design. What matters is weight and the keel and ruder dimension. A boat like the Pogo only has more drag going upwind against waves.





















JAndersB said:


> A little bit disturbing is that the Yacht test was conducted in so light wind. Doing 9 knots in 8-11 knots of wind is of course nice but it seems like that is also the limit, and that not that much more happens in 15-20 knots of wind, as in the french test. As I said before my main dissapointment with traditional performance/cruiser designs is that they do not take off and give a thrilling ride in 18-25 knots wind speed (without a crew and a spinnaker) and it seems that only a light Pogo 12.50 does that.


Hum, you are exaggerating. Even my old Bavaria 36 could go upwind over 9K (with 30K wind) and with no spinnaker under reefed sail.

For what I have saw from Polar speeds, by reading and talking with sailors, boats like the J 122, the Salona 41 or performance First 40 will go downwind (at the best speed angle, not VMG) typically around 10,5K with 20K wind, a bit over 12 with 25K wind and a bit over 13/14 with 30 K winds. They can also doing this with geenaker or with sufficient wind just with a genoa and a reefeed main.

The difference in speed for the Pogo will be probably about 2K and then it will increase over with 30K and over.

The other boats can really sail faster with a spinnaker and lots of wind. I have heard of speeds close to 20K but that is tricky and for that with those boats you need a good crew and to know a lot. The Pogo is a lot easier to sail downwind fast with a lot of wind.

Take a look at what I have said about it here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...-blue-water-sailer-can-go-light-winds-32.html

On the other hand boats like the Pogo going against the wind with heavy seas will be slower and less comfortable than the other type of performance boats.

On the overall balance regarding speed and easiness of handling the Pogo wins, but it all depends on what you value most and what type of sailing you are doing most of the time (upwind, downwind, weak winds, strong winds and so on).

Regarding the Opium I believe its speed downwind with 25/30K wind it will be in between the Pogo speed and the other more traditional performance cruisers.



JAndersB said:


> A rather well equipped Opium 39 costs appr €260 000 today..


Anders,

That's at least 35 000€ out of my max budget

Anyway if you don't have a dealer in Sweden perhaps I can point you to a dealer that will offer you a better price. Yes I have tried to see if I could afford one

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Paulo,
There is no dealer in Sweden or Scandinavia. Kiel in Germany is the closest, so if you have good experience with a dealer I would be interested to know.

Regrds, Anders


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## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Paulo,
> There is no dealer in Sweden or Scandinavia. Kiel in Germany is the closest, so if you have good experience with a dealer I would be interested to know.
> 
> Regrds, Anders


Anders,
I have sent you a private message.

Did you saw the new integrated pole? It looks great and that was one of the things I did not like on the boat I have tried:










Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

New boat and a beautiful one. When I am older and wiser I want one ...I hope I will be richer, because it is an expensive boat.

The Southerly 47 is designed by Stephen Jones that has in my opinion made the Southerlies not only good cruising boats but also beautiful boats.

They say about it:

*"This blue water cruiser is designed for a high specification, with easy handling, and can be sailed by just two people.

The tall fractional rig with self tacking jib and large mainsail provides powerful sailing performance. An aysmmetric gennaker can be flown from an optional bowsprit, for light wind conditions. A double headsail rig (self tacking jib and overlapping genoa) can be chosen as an option, for optimum sailing performance. As with all Southerly's, the semi balanced twin rudders give instantly responsive steering and precise directional stability.

The mainsheet track is set across the coachroof with lines led aft to both helm positions, for easy handling, whilst keeping the cockpit free and uncluttered. The cockpit is secure and enclosed, with deep comfortable seating. A central table offers dinette facilities for guests whilst also providing a foot brace, when the yacht is heeled. Teak double seats to the pushpit provide further areas for socialising. The fold down transom door gives access to a large stowage area, ideal for a dinghy."*























































Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

The bedroom looks like stupid if this boat is heeled ;-)


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## KeelHaulin

The mainsheet looks like it is quite far forward on the boom; otherwise not too bad for a cruiser aside from the wide-ass/beam factor. I'd prefer a fixed keel over a swing; but so would Paulo as noted in his earlier post on this thread about the Pogo 10.5.


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## PCP

myocean said:


> The bedroom looks like stupid if this boat is heeled ;-)


Yes, even if this boat is designed to sail at 17º or something like it. But that's the same with Halberg Rassy or Najad. You cannot have both things, a state room for living aboard and a sea berth on the same bed The front cabin will be smaller and will offer a better grip.

But for what I have understood from the drawings, opposite from the raised saloon you will have a nice sea berth. Not bad for this kind of boat, I mean a really sea berth

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Name of the boat? The pictures won´t load in my explorer.

Rgrds, Anders


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## PCP

KeelHaulin said:


> The mainsheet looks like it is quite far forward on the boom; otherwise not too bad for a cruiser aside from the wide-ass/beam factor. I'd prefer a fixed keel over a swing; but so would Paulo as noted in his earlier post on this thread about the Pogo 10.5.


Regarding the main-sheet position on the boom it is quite average on this type of system that is well proven and used in almost all contemporary cruising yachts that are not aimed at performance. It will work well and give a good control of the main even if not that extra notch a rail near the wheel will provide.

Regarding a fixed keel over a swing, this boat (as almost all southerlies) can be made both ways. But on this one with 47ft if you want a decent upwind performance a deep draft would be needed and that would limit the places the boat could go. This keel was a 3.12m draft if it was substituted for a big bulbed fixed one it would had to have probably at least 2.4/2.6m draft and that is way too much for cruising. If I bought one of those I would have it with the Swing Keel. If I would have the money for it I would have also the money for the maintenance of the swing keel besides Southerly uses a very sturdy and heavy system and has 30 years of experience with it with remarkable good results.

Remarking the disadvantages you found regarding the beam/ass factor on almost any kind of contemporary cruising let me remind you that Paul & Sheryl Shard changed is old narrow deep keel boat for a Southerly 42 (two years ago) and are just selling it to buy one of the new 47. If there are guys that have experience regarding sailing and cruising are those two, the live aboard and cruised the past 20 years.

They say this about the Southerly 42, regarding the last Trasnsat :

*This, our 4th transatlantic passage, was a pleasure rather than an endurance test. We ate well, slept well, spoiled ourselves with luxurious showers thanks to our Schenker watermaker, enjoyed lots of laughs and storytelling, and all had a wonderful time learning what a safe comfortable boat our new Southerly 42RST is for long-distance passage-making. *

Southerly - Owners - Trans-Atlantic Lessons

The Southerly 47 is just a more comfortable, faster and better cruising boat.

Southerlies are great long range cruisers. Look at what owners say about them as passage making boats:

Southerly - Owners' Stories

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Now I can see that the boat you posted pictures for on this page is the Southerly. It was not named in the text and the pictures would not load.

Regards,
Anders


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## JAndersB

Sounds interesting. An Opium 39, RM 1060 or Elan 350 choise is getting closer quickly so looking forward to that, unless it is too big of course.

Contrary to all comments here about Pogo and interior problems for wifes, my wife found the Pogo 1050 interior as the "most interesting". 

Regards,
Anders


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## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
thank you for the info. I infact already have drawings and specs for the 1260 and it is definitively an improvment of the 1200. It is though on the bigger side of my size range (as is the new Elan 400) and at least the 1200 ended up more expensive than the Opium so I am still in favour fo the ones I mentioned earlier.


It is a pity that the Pogo factory seems to be on the small side...

I might take a trip to France next week to have alook at the RM and Opium.

Regards,
Anders


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## myocean

What about keel and rudder of the new RM?
I find the low draft of the bi-keel appealing but it seemed to reduce the performance of the 1200. At the same time it is obviously not combined with the double rudders which are probably quite important if the new model comes with a wider stern. So have they a new design for the 1260?
Ulf


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## JAndersB

The 1260 is also available with twin and single keels. Do not know about rudders but I would be surprised if it only had the single keel option. 

The RM 1060 as well as the old 1200 can be ordered with twin rudders, which I also think is a must.

According to what I have read and felt when test sailing the RM1200 the double keel configuration seems to bring with it no or very few drawbacks, perhaps due to the assymetric set up and thin profiles and narrow base. But yes, double keels and double rudders, a lot of stuff below surface...

I will say hello to Jean Eudes from you, Paulo, thank you for the tip.

Regards,
Anders


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## myocean

PCP said:


> I have big news for you and a lot on this thread that are waiting for a fast ocean going cruiser. Just wait Photobucket to finish with the maintenance work and if I find some spare time I bet you would like the next post


Hi Paulo!
I am curiously waiting when you will find the spare time to show us a bit more about the new RM  Photobucket is working again I think.
Thank you in advance!
Ulf


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## myocean

Ah, found it here...
Testvinner blir enda bedre : Båtliv


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## PCP

So finally I am able to post photos

The RM 1260 looks really great. It will be faster than the actual model and will have two wheels or a tiller, an open transom or a closed one, as the client prefers.

*The main changes compared to RM1200:

- More modern and more powerful hull. 
- Elongated roof, mast on the roof, more balanced sail plan. 
-Two steering wheel (option tiller). 
- More volume in the saloon and improved height. 
- Forward cabin enlarged, improved height, wider bed. 
- Optimized brightness: lateral and frontal view, windscreen without interruption. 
- Technical room enlarged, possibility of additional cabin. 
- Modern design, sharp and very pure lines. 
- Outside visibility, from the chart-table. 
*

Surprise, they don't say nothing about twin rudders, but I bet it will be at least an option.

Two choice of keels, mono bulbed keel with 2.20m draft or twin keel with 1.85m.

First four boats will be ready before nest year Summer. Special price for the first boats : 191 827€.

It seems to me that the winch's position makes sense for a tiller, not for twin wheels.














































Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

On another thread Puddinlegs posted this about the Bieker 35ft:



puddinlegs said:


> ..about Vic-Maui ... first to finish was a 35' boat was first to finish in only 11 days ...
> 
> _"Amazing performance, Scott, Susan, Alex and Skyler. ALL of the boas who have won line honors in the past with better times than Terremoto have been at least 65 feet long, compared to 35 feet for T-moto. Quite an accomplishment. "_
> 
> More about the 35': ....
> 
> _" His design brief was for a high performance racer/cruiser capable of blistering speed on the race course (Jonathan is an Olympic gold medalist in the FD class and a silver medalist in the 49er class)."_
> 
> ...The Bieker 35? They're cruising Alaska this summer. And yes, the boat was sailed back to Seattle after the race last year. I don't think they've made a calendar, but it really is an amazing piece of modern design.


That got my attention  ...and guess what, there is a Bieker 35 MKII on the design board!!

The boat, like the MKI, is very light a boat with a big Ballast/Displacement ratio with a very deep bulb (2.63m) with a relatively narrow beam and a huge spinnaker pole.

Some posts back I have said that modern performance sailboat come in two main design trends, the ones that have origin on the Open solo classes and the ones that come from the more classical tradition, Mum, Farr, Archimbault and that's on that tradition that the Bieker is founded, but with the water ballast from the the solo boats.


























That is not probably a very easy boat to sail and not properly a boat for solo sailing but with a short crew should be a blast and the race results show that. This new one is even faster. Take a look at the polar speeds:










The boat is very interesting but the design seems a bit old, I mean the aesthetics and the hull has only a chine, it seems that another could be used, at least if we consider that most of the better designers know what they are doing and probably two rudders would help to control the boat at high speeds downwind, with a short crew.




























But surprise, the last drawings show that Bieker is bringing the design to that direction. The extra chine is not yet there, but the two rudders and an overall more modern design give a much more modern look to the boat. A beautiful one and very fast one for sure.

It is a pity that with 2.63m draft the cruising options are a bit limited, but with a swinging keel, Pogo's style, this one could not only be a great racing boat but also a great cruising boat, for the ones that like to travel light and have fun while sailing.


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## PCP

Guys, I have found out some nice movies about some of the boats posted on this thread. The movies, that have not yet been posted, are just small versions (teasers) of the big ones you can access in Voile and Voiliers if you have a subscription. All of these boats were test sailed by that French Magazine:

the Defline 43, a fast long range cruiser, going fast on a gale with 40K winds:

Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - Essai croisière Defline 43 : avis de tempête sur Argelès

The RM 1060, the boat that Anders is going to test sail soon (we are wainting your comments ):

Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - RM 1060 : la bande annonce de l'essai en vidéo

The Django 7.7'0, a boat that I like a lot, that has been making quite an impression among the French sailors but that deserved here a quite indifferent reception. This boat is a kind of a bigger Mini racer adapted to cruising. If I was younger and had little money, this would be one of the boats that I would dream to have :

Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - Vidéo voile - Django 770 : teaser de l'essai complet

This one dispenses comments, except maybe that in a normal year this boat would be boat of the year and was not only because it had has competition some other excellent boats (Elan 350, JPK 10.10):

Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - Video voile, first 30 Bénéteau*: bande annonce de l'essai complet

And finally, on the chapter of perfect cruisers for the average cruiser (I mean average in tastes, not in money  ) the XC 42:

Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - XC 42, la croisière haut de gamme et rapide : extrait de l'essai vidéo

Enjoy!

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Paulo, 
Very close to a deal on the RM 1060. Going to La Rochelle 29/4. No possibility to access the videos without a subscription?
Regards, Anders


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## JomsViking

*X-Yachts - Xp44 Launched*

Photo gallery

A FAST boat (but out of my league )


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## JAndersB

Yes, very nice indeed, even more modern that I thought they would be. Nice hull windows too. 
Regards,
Anders


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## PCP

JomsViking said:


> Photo gallery
> 
> A FAST boat (but out of my league )


Thanks. I have being looking at the X yacht page waiting to see the first photos but it seems I was not the only one

Not out of my league, I would love to sail one, just out of my budget and I believe out of most, but it is a beautiful boat. More nice that on the designs I would say. That big port hull in the salon does not look as bad as I thought it would look...and should provide the salon with a view. Nice compromise.

If what they say about the boat is true, and I have no motive to doubt, it will be an incredible boat, they talk about 10% stiffer and 15% faster than the X43 and the x43 was a very fast and stiff boat!!!! Amazing the improvements in yacht design in only 9 years and the X43 was not any boat, it was a kind of benchmark when it was realesed

"This represents the 4th generation of Performance Cruisers for X-Yachts - and Xp retains much of the DNA of its forebears but has evolved into a fast and progressive cruiser-racer that has as much to offer the modern, comfort-demanding family as it does a race crew....

Compared to the previous X-43, launched in 2002, the Xp 44 is 5% longer on the waterline, *10 % stiffened up to 15 % faster. Weight has moved from the composite weight of the yacht into the deep lead-bulb of the T-Keel*.

This is thanks to the fact that X-Yachts has again taken the lead in modern production boatbuilding, utilizing a vacuum infusion epoxy foam hull laminate, with an advanced keel structure that is reinforced with carbon fibre instead of the traditional steel.
...
"The feeling of helming the Xp 44 is just sensational, the stiff hull means it takes just a touch of bow down on the helm to get her back up to maximum speed, whilst all that stability gives you finger tip control - even reaching along at tight angles under the huge code zero. These are characteristics that will reward the cruiser as much as the racer - but we warned - you may need to plan a new holiday itinerary - because the Xp 44 will be getting you to your usual anchorage fast!"

Press release 15th April 2011 - Launched!
































































Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Twin rudders a must, I have been thinking a lot about single or twin keels, but single keel will save weight which seems cruicial for these boats so I guess I will go for single keel. 

The only niggle in my mind is how the RM really sails. Looking at the specs it should be a rocket, but I can not find so much feed back from others than the above mentioned test which seems pretty much focused on crusing among the island around La Rochelle. For the Pogo you can find beatuful sequenses at high speed on You Tube, is this possible with the RM or the Opium, which is the closest contender, I keep asking myself. opium is also appr. €50 000 more expensive but has doors and wheels.

Probably I should go for a Pogo 10.50 or 12.50 but 2-3 years waiting is not accetable.
Regards,
Anders


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## JAndersB

To test sail would of course be the best solution, but then there should be wind the day I visit. Furthermore, if I do not order now, I will not get the boat this summer. If I order now I can get both boats by 15/7. To be frank, I think the Pogo should be a must to reach the sailing experience I want but the only available I can find is a Pogo 40 2008 in Guadeloupe for €230000.

Regards,
Anders


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## PCP

New boat: This one was created for a young couple to circumnavigate. The guy, a young but very experienced sailor wanted something fast and safe and asked a friend NA to adapt one of its designs, the FOX 950, a solo Ocean racer for cruising and a new boat was born, the FOX 10.20.

FoX Technology - Architecture Navale et Ingénierie

The boat, like the RM is made of marine plywood/epoxy and has a well designed lifting keel that does not take much space and has a surprisingly good interior taking into account that they were doing a budget boat. It seems a very interesting boat to me

The boat only weights 3800kg, has a big bulb at 2.4m (lifting to 1.3m) and should be a blast with its big spinnaker up (110m2). Upwind the boat should be fast, with 66m2 of sail and for bad weather it comes already with a small stay sail (17m2).

The only thing I don't like is the name, CAPADO: in Portuguese means a guy or an animal that has its balls removed It should be interesting when they sail in Portugal and Brasil, their radio communications are going to be interesting with such a name call






















































































































Regards

Paulo


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## GeorgeB

Paulo, again thanks for directing me to your photos. When I clicked on the link I didn't realized this boat was at the bottom of the page. Am I assuming that you personally took those photographs? Do you know the owners and can you provide some details? I don't read French so you have to help me out. Why the retractable keel? What race are they going to do? I am unfamiliar with the European horsepower rating. Can you convert it to HP? I am guessing that it is about 15 HP which was about the size on the ULDB I used to race on. 

What I took issue with the artist conception drawing was the tiller geometry which looked like it would knock against the coaming. I see now that they "fixed" that with the canted rudder, chamfering the coaming edge and angling the tillers inward. Have you had a chance to sail this boat yet? On the Aerodyne, the owner opted for a single rudder for maneuverability instead of the doubles. In regards to euro certification, where is the second egress from the aft state room and where is that "safety ladder"? Why did they put Wichard eye-nuts on all the stanchion base nuts? I can't figure that one out. Oddly enough, I never had any issues with the rig or rigging. It's way over powered and CE an CG and keel look "aft" on the boat, but I'm not a NA so I don't have an opinion. The flat bottom and hard chines are reminiscent of the metal hulled boats and is this the flat bottom that "Keel" was referring too? It looks like the boat would do a lot of slamming in our typical conditions off of Northern California. Not my cup of tea in a cruising boat, but I would love to sail it sometime. I may be delivering a friends Leopard back from the Med in '12 so perhaps we could&#8230;


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## blt2ski

paulo,

I looked in here for the first time in a few days. the Bieker 35.....do not quote me, but I think I may have mentioned it earlier in this thread. I probably referred to it as a riptide 35, as that is how I know her, with Bieker as the designer. I remember the first time seeing her sailing, she was moving in some less than 5 knot winds, everyone else seemed to be standing still, including us in a C&C 115. 

Boat was initially designed for Jon McKee. He now has a 45'ish foot, a bit nicer than the 35. I do not know if it is as fast per say. IE compare the 35 to other 35's, she is on the faster end of things. the 45 has not from what I have seen raced and won a lot of races like the 35. One persons opinion of 2 local boats here in Puget Sound where Pudding and I in habit. 

As far as "Capado" I like how it has two interior designs, both have places, I prefer the aft head, 2 fr and rear berth area version, vs the 2 rear berth, front head. I do see the plus/minus of both floorplans. But for a boat of this size, at least the how I would it, I still like the one a number of pages back, need to go look that one up.......

Marty


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## blt2ski

Boy did I have to go back a BUNCH of pages, Evosion 34, or Finn flyer 34 or some such length for the FF!

I noticed Evosion has a 35' boat. 
EVOSION » EVOSION 35 â€" Race

Looks quicker by bunch's over the 34. Specs say the hull is from the VO70 style of boat. Now whether I would want one for SH/DH sailing with spouse in Puget Sound, but the Evosion or FF34 or 35 still seem to hit the spot. Altho the Elan 350 probably for price.....

Marty


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## GeorgeB

Paulo certainly has a lot of time on his hands surfing the net for interesting (and sometimes weird boats. It would have been nice if he was knowledgeable enough to discuss their features in an adult manner. I’ve been thinking about the 10.2 boat and am curious about that retractable keel and what purpose does it truly serve? Do you think they do it to reduce surface area for running down wind? Never seen that before. The other thing that got me to wondering is the extreme faceted shape of the hull. I understand that hard chines are “in” now, but this is extreme. Then I thought, perhaps they don’t have the techniques to shape a curved surface. With all the surfboard building down in Santa Cruz (home of the “fast is fun” crowd). We take curved surfaces for granted. Even the one-off Newland 36 I used to sail on was very nicely shaped. The one thing I do know, if that 10.2 doesn’t maintain good fore and aft trim, suction is going to take over and It’s performance is going to suffer.


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## myocean

GeorgeB said:


> am curious about that retractable keel and what purpose does it truly serve? Do you think they do it to reduce surface area for running down wind? Never seen that before.


George, something like that is not so special. It is not about sailing performance but made for shallow anchorages and marinas. Pogo Structures nicely promotes it's swing keel with photos of the yacht very close to the beach - similar to a catamaran.


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## GeorgeB

I saw a Pogo “mini” on a trailer at the boat show, but I am unfamiliar with the one you’re talking about. Got a link? I really don’t think that the Fox 10.2 was intended to be a gunk holer. 12 gallons of useable diesel, 15 HP engine, twin rudders, anchor stowed in the aft lazarette really more the features of an ocean racer than something you want to explore the back creeks with IMHO. Are the Europeans much for mooring fields? What are the tidal changes in the Med? Perhaps they need to retract for low tides? Or perhaps the boat was meant to be dry sailed and they want it to squat lower on its trailer or jack stands like an Antrim 27?


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## PCP

GeorgeB said:


> Am I assuming that you personally took those photographs? Do you know the owners and can you provide some details? I don't read French so you have to help me out. ... What race are they going to do? ...I've been thinking about the 10.2 boat and am curious about that retractable keel and what purpose does it truly serve? Do you think they do it to reduce surface area for running down wind?
> 
> I am unfamiliar with the European horsepower rating. Can you convert it to HP? I am guessing that it is about 15 HP which was about the size on the ULDB I used to race on.


No, I didn't take personally the photos and I don't know personally the owner.

They are not going to do any race, this is not a race boat, they are going to circumnavigate (a couple) and thats what this boat is equipped and designed for.

The retractable keel has nothing to do with sailing but with cruising. To have a good upwind performance and maximize ballast this boat has all the ballast in a deep bulb and consequently a draft of 2.40m. That is too much for cruising so this boat has a lifting keel that permits it to have a very small draft for anchoring near the shore protection (1.3m) and also a deep draft for better sailing performance (better upwind pointing, less need of ballast).

19cv is about 19hp.



GeorgeB said:


> The other thing that got me to wondering is the extreme faceted shape of the hull. I understand that hard chines are "in" now, but this is extreme. Then I thought, perhaps they don't have the techniques to shape a curved surface. With all the surfboard building down in Santa Cruz (home of the "fast is fun" crowd). We take curved surfaces for granted. Even the one-off Newland 36 I used to sail on was very nicely shaped.


That is a plywood-epoxy boat and curved surfaces are a problem but even in modern performance carbon hulls where curved surfaces are not a problem designers found out that chines, if well designed improved performance. Top racers all have chines now. Its "in" because they work, not because it is a fashion. Chines are old news to racing boats, they are starting to be used on cruising boats. These guys design race boats, they know what they are doing.



GeorgeB said:


> I saw a Pogo "mini" on a trailer at the boat show, but I am unfamiliar with the one you're talking about. Got a link?


The Pogo mini is a racer, we are talking about Pogo cruisers, the 10.50 and the 12.50. Use the search engine on this thread and you will get plenty information.



GeorgeB said:


> I really don't think that the Fox 10.2 was intended to be a gunk holer. 12 gallons of useable diesel, 15 HP engine, twin rudders, anchor stowed in the aft lazarette really more the features of an ocean racer than something you want to explore the back creeks with IMHO. Are the Europeans much for mooring fields? What are the tidal changes in the Med? Perhaps they need to retract for low tides? Or perhaps the boat was meant to be dry sailed and they want it to squat lower on its trailer or jack stands like an Antrim 27?


This is not a trailer boat, the engine has 19hp and that seems enough for 3800kg. The sail qualities of this boat and its ability to sail in very weak winds will make that engine really an auxiliary. This is a sailboat and they want to sail it

In the Med there are almost no tides, in the Atlantic Coast of France the tides are big.

Again, we are talking of a boat that is prepared to circumnavigate, so that small draft is a bonus everywhere and increase the ability to look for shelter in bad weather.



GeorgeB said:


> Paulo certainly has a lot of time on his hands surfing the net for interesting (and sometimes weird boats. *It would have been nice if he was knowledgeable enough to discuss their features in an adult manner*.


Well, that is not nice and it is incongruous from someone that confounds a performance cruiser with a racer and make so many obvious questions

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

blt2ski said:


> paulo,
> 
> I looked in here for the first time in a few days. the Bieker 35.....do not quote me, but I think I may have mentioned it earlier in this thread. I probably referred to it as a riptide 35, as that is how I know her, with Bieker as the designer. I remember the first time seeing her sailing, she was moving in some less than 5 knot winds, everyone else seemed to be standing still, including us in a C&C 115.
> 
> Boat was initially designed for Jon McKee. He now has a 45'ish foot, a bit nicer than the 35. I do not know if it is as fast per say. IE compare the 35 to other 35's, she is on the faster end of things. the 45 has not from what I have seen raced and won a lot of races like the 35. One persons opinion of 2 local boats here in Puget Sound where Pudding and I in habit.
> 
> Marty


Marty,

I remember you talking about the riptide 35 but I did not know the boat. for what you have said I understood that was a fast boat but I had no information. Puddinlegs pointed some impressive race results and I got curious and find out they are making a MKII, a new model.

I found specially interesting the new drawings, the ones that have less details and show a even more modern boat, with twin rudders and aggressive very modern lines.

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

Paulo,

Do not quote me, but I recall 2 boats being made of the R35 initially. Terromoto and one other. Not sure where that one is. mark/Puddinglegs may, as he sails out of the marina south of me that has MOST of the bigger races here in Puget Sound, and the boat he mainly races on is one of the faster/better raced rigs on the sound. Altho at 18 phrf, the Farr 39 is not the fastest. That usually is Neptune Carr, a santa cruz70. An older Aligani is also ont he sound, with a -270 or some such rating as compared to the Carr at -66 or some number. Not sure what the IRC equal would be. 100phrf is supposed to be pretty close or equal from what I understand to be a 1.000 irc.

Marty


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## PCP

Guys, I bought today the May edition of "Voiles et Voiliers" and surprise, surprise, I found out they had sail tested the Fox 10.20. It seems that it is not only me that find this performance cruiser interesting.

Opposite of what normally occurs when sail magazines test cruising boats, this one was full loaded. The reason? Adrien and is wife were leaving for their circumnavigation 24 hours after: Full tanks, all the provisions, auxiliary boat and engine and even two bycicles

They have said about the sailing performance (translated):

*Directionally stable, and always very responsive at the tiller, the boat is powerful and light due to a lead bulb situated 2.4m under the water.

The boat is fast and well balanced despite the load needed to the program . It accelerates quickly it is fun to sail, stay in its groove and gives a big desire to sail away.

The Fox 10.20 is globally a safe and fun boat with a sportive character and is a credible alternative to the Pogo and the RM.
*

Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - Fox 10.20 (Technologie Marine / Bertrand)

And now the best part, *the measured speeds (with a fully loaded boat)*:

With *12K wind*

*at 50ºTW - 7.5K *......... *80ºTW - 8.5K * .........*130ºTW - 10K *

The price is also a nice surprise for an almost custom boat:

165 000€ for a boat ready to sail away. The Pogo 10.50 costs 151 500€ but it seems to me that it has less equipment and has a worse interior. Besides with this one you can really have a say in all things, including interior, rigging, tankage and almost anything, you can really fit the boat to your needs and that is a rare thing that normally costs a lot of money.

Regards

Paulo


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## bb74

Can't please anyone these days.... As for as the derogatory comments on these boards, it's juvenile. Nobody is telling anyone to buy one of these boats, simply increasing awareness of the multitude of designs out there on the market today. If that get's some people bent out of shape, then they have much bigger problems in life.

Keep them coming Paulo!


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## PCP

Voile magazine tested the Allurse 45, the boat I have posted recently in post 996. This one:




























It was a several days test (they call it 100nm even if sometimes is more). They have loved the boat and its live aboard potential. They have said about it (translated):

*With 1m draft the Allures 45 give the happiness of the most improbable docking and therefore visit the most remote places not to mention the standing in beautiful places.

Nice looking and effective design...a XXL galley with a big frigo with two separated compartments, plenty of storage...a long course cruiser and a boat to live aboard...with a very good isolation...the comfort of a live aboard boat...a magnificent voyage boat...a very well built boat, intelligent and well designed in all the details, a boat that justifies the price (355 188€ with 20% French tax).

Sailing: with 12K wind against the wind, best with 50º, it makes about 5K, the normal performance for this type of boat. At 90º with 14/15K wind at 90º the boat makes more than 8K.

Engine: With the 55Hp engine the boat has an economic cruising speed of 5.2K and a max speed of 6.4 hp. The boat as an option for a 75hp engine that will give a better average speed and will waste less fuel.*

They did not talked about it, probably they have not tested it but this kind of boat can be quite fast on the strong trade winds, going downwind with the keel up. It can easily go a little above hull speed and make 10/12K with ease and comfort.

As I have already said, a very interesting boat for the ones that want to go far with comfort and with the possibility of exploring all corners of the world, with the advantage and safety of a strong aluminum hull.

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Hi everybody, 
I earlier asked for access to RM 1060-video withouthaving a subscrition. I think I found it at this link:
Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - RM 1060 : un baroudeur embourgeoisé

Paulo, you mentioned that the retailer in France has sold an Opium with some necessary improvments to the rig. What did you mean more specifically, I can not find that particular boat on the web anymore?

The Fox 10.20 looks interesting, and in addition to that they have an 11.60 on the web. Strange that no one else has a 11.50, everybody goes from 10.50 to 12.50. For me the 11.50, like the Opium, would be the perfect size.

Regards,
Anders


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## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi everybody,
> I earlier asked for access to RM 1060-video withouthaving a subscrition. I think I found it at this link:
> Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - RM 1060 : un baroudeur embourgeoisé


Hei! you have found the full test! Outstanding, that should be paid

Nice test. I share the opinion of the tester: very nice boat in what regards sailing but expensive for its size and with an interior functional but "rudimentary" in what regards warmness and looks.



JAndersB said:


> Paulo, you mentioned that the retailer in France has sold an Opium with some necessary improvments to the rig. What did you mean more specifically, I can not find that particular boat on the web anymore?


The boat was never been in the net and the needed improvements are not in the rig but in the running rigging. Sorry if I was not clear.

What I have said is that if you go the the La Rochelle dealer, he can show you on the La Rochelle port (Minimes) a Rm that has the running rig (and not the rig) modified by them at the demand of a client in the way I think it should be rigged, for working properly.

The standard boat is rigged with the German sheeting and that means that you have to use winches to move and regulate the mainsail (more friction). Boats that use that system, like the Salona 41 have normally two winches on each side of cockpit, one for the front sail, other for the mainsail, but the Opium only has one for each side and that means that you have to change the lines, blocking one, to use the only winch for the two tasks.

I would say that the boat was not thought by the designer to use German sheeting but to use a direct system, like the one you use on the RM 1060. That way you don't need winches for the main sail and can use the ones the boat has on the side exclusively for the front sail.

The boat that is on the Minimes (belonging to a client) has a system like that. It makes sense to me and I would fit it in the boat if I bought one.



JAndersB said:


> The Fox 10.20 looks interesting, and in addition to that they have an 11.60 on the web. Strange that no one else has a 11.50, everybody goes from 10.50 to 12.50. For me the 11.50, like the Opium, would be the perfect size.


The Opium 39 has 11.47m, the Elan 38 has 11.44m, the Comet 38 has 11.40m the Pacer 376 has 11.48 m. I don't think that the most popular size above 10.50 is 12.50, but 11.99, to escape to pay on European Marinas the extra charge for boats over 12.00m. You have plenty boats with that size including the RM 1200 and the Dufour 40e.

I agree with you, probably the best compromise for a solo sailor that wants to live aboard is about 11.50. Space enough for living comfortably but small enough to be easily maneuvered in the marina and also smaller sails to handle in a blow, not to mention smaller maintenance bills.

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
I ment that it is very difficult to find a 11.50 of the kind of boats that RM, Opium and Pogo represents. For me 3,95*11,50-11,99 (lenght over all, not hull length since many marinas use LOA as stated by manufacturer) would be the optimum, as you also writes.

I have asked RM why they have such a big gap between 10.60 (smallish) and 1200/1260 (rather over above mentioned numbers) but got no reply so far.

Regards,
Anders


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## blt2ski

A copy and paste from a link on the jeanneau owners forum with info on the new SO 379

Marty

Here is the first image of the SO379

Provisional specifications for the new Sun Odyssey 379 just obtained:

Length Overall 11.24 m 36' 10"
Hull Length 10.98 m 36' 0"
Waterline Length 10.35 m 33' 11"
Max Beam 3.76 m 12' 4"
Deep keel weight 1870 kg 4123 lbs
Deep draft 1.95 m 6' 4"
Shoal keel weight 2125 kg 4685 lbs
Shoal draft 1.50 m 4' 11"
Lifting keel weight 2112 kg 4656 lbs
Lifting keel draft 1.10 m / 2.25 m 3' 7" / 7' 4"
Displacement - deep draft 6280 kg 13845 lbs
Engine 29 Hp 21 Kw
Cabin 2/3
Fuel capacity 130 lt
Water capacity 206 lt (+ 130 lt option)
Fridge capacity 180 lt
Classic Rig dimensions 
I - 14.22 m 
J - 4.15 m 
P - 13.60 m 
E - 4.25 m 
Mainsail 36.0 m² 387 sq ft
Solent self-tacking 24.0 m² 258 sq ft
Genoa 35.0 m² 377 sq ft
Spinnaker 90.0 m² 968 sq ft
CE category A - 8 pers 
Design Architect Marc Lombard / Jeanneau Design

Note that there will be a lift keel as well as shallow and deep draft versions

Although a Marc Lombard design rather than the Philip Briand of her larger 409 and 439 siblings the design cues are very similar - note transom bustle as well as german main and self-tacker option etc

Larger image at:

Sun Odyssey 379


Attachment: Sun Odyssey 379 crop.jpg (60.0 KB)
Read more: jeanneau owners network - STOP PRESS: New Sun Odyssey 379 in development
​


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## PCP

Thanks Marty, you are the Man in what regards Jeanneau and this one looks really great:










We were talking about 38ft and here comes a new one!

Personnaly I like more the designs of Lombard than the ones from Philip Briand, and I am not talking about the looks but about the hull design. It seems to me that this boat has the beam brought further back than on the 409 giving it a more powerful hull. I like it more than the 409 and that is great because it is more easy to make a bigger boat look better

It does not seem to me that it will have twin rudders and that's a pity but with a ballast/displacement ratio of 30%, with a bulb at 1.95m and a powerful hull this boat seem to support more sail than the one that is announced and will have certainly a performance version. The weight seems alright to me, 6280kg is very good for a 38ft cruiser. A very nice boat.

Pity that there are not place, as on the 409, to an additional pair of winches.

I just hope the interior will match in quality the overall design

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

Paulo, 

Another fellow on the JO site, thoght set of winches could be put forward of the cockpit seat storage area's. If so, then one could have plenty of them. Remove the table to install a cockpit mounted main traveller, taller rig by a Meter, 2.1M keel(add some lead to the bottom instead of all steel - my thought) and you would have a pretty solid performing boat. He thinks this one could rival the 39iP, which is currently the most performance oriented of the current line. The lombard design seems to have a few more positive comments over the 409/439 lines. I personally am not seeing too much difference with the pics at hand. 

Also this appears to be just shy of 37' long at 36'10" OA, deck at 36'. The claim is not to take over from the SO36, but sure looks like it!

Marty


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## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Another fellow on the JO site, thoght set of winches could be put forward of the cockpit seat storage area's. ...
> 
> Marty


I see what you mean, but it is a pity, they will be too much forward to be easy handled by a solo sailor. Now, they could just make that opening of the seat storage space 20 or 25cm shorter, pull it all to the front and then you would have space for the two other winches in the right place

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Back on post 1040 I have posted about the Fox 10.20. Nice boat but no photos of the boat sailing. Here they are.

It looks nicer sailing


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## blt2ski

Another about the 379, if I am seeing the main sheet rigging correctly, looks to be a german system? is led back to a cockpit winch from the cabin top. That would be nice for a SH/DH sailing setup vs crew style. Not having used this system, not sure how it would be vs a traveler in the cockpit to a sheet at the back end of the boom.....

Marty


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## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Another about the 379, if I am seeing the main sheet rigging correctly, looks to be a german system? is led back to a cockpit winch from the cabin top. That would be nice for a SH/DH sailing setup vs crew style. Not having used this system, not sure how it would be vs a traveler in the cockpit to a sheet at the back end of the boom.....
> 
> Marty


No, I don't think so. This is the same system that is on the 409. Is a German sheeting alright but the lines are brought back to the winch near the wheel. On that winch you control the front sail and the back sail. You have stoppers and have to change lines on the winch. It has the advantage of having all controls at hand, but not really the same thing as having two winches with the lines at hand even if not as expensive.

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

PCP said:


> Hei Anders, I cannot find that 11.60. Of what site are you talking about? it is not this one?
> 
> FoX Technology - Yacht Design and Engineering
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Here it is (and other interesting models)

Nos Modèles - RLM COMPOSITES

Regards,
Anders


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## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Here it is (and other interesting models)
> 
> Nos Modèles - RLM COMPOSITES
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Thanks! Funny it does not come in the main Fox page but on the shipyard's page that builts the Fox for them.




























But you are right, the 38ft looks great and it is also the ideal size for me. It will probably cost less than the Pogo 12.50 but more than the Pogo 10.50.

The boat has a big galley and a big storage space with an extra bunk. very interesting and a very nice looking boat with a great interior for cruising and I am sure it is fast enough in light winds and downwind. Probably better than the Pogo upwind

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Interesting floorplan compared to typical like it. It has storage where usually you see a nav desk of sorts on the port side. Altho there appears to be something on par just behind the mast. While the nav desk does seem to be going out of style per say, due to electronic nav aids, I still find a nav area to be nice for the radio, electric panels, laptop or laying out some kind of chart vs using the main saloon table. BUT, this is personal opinion, and may not follow the needs of other folks buying boats today.

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Interesting floorplan compared to typical like it. It has storage where usually you see a nav desk of sorts on the port side. Altho there appears to be something on par just behind the mast. While the nav desk does seem to be going out of style per say, due to electronic nav aids, I still find a nav area to be nice for the radio, electric panels, laptop or laying out some kind of chart vs using the main saloon table. BUT, this is personal opinion, and may not follow the needs of other folks buying boats today.
> 
> Marty


Hey Marty, you have a nav desk and that's one of the more original designs on the boat. Like on the race boats, central, just in front of the stairs. It is partially fold-able and when not in use can serve as support table for the galley. You have space for instruments just in front of your eyes, between the mast and the table. You have plenty space for them.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Capado

Hello,
We have left from Marseille on the 4th of March, and we are now in Gibraltar about to set sails towards Canarias. The Fox 10.20 has proved to be really good at sea with good speeds, especially reaching. Still a few twicks to do to get the maximum out of her.
It is quite fun to have so many people stopping by in each harbour asking about the boat. 
I think this trip will help a lot getting every details sorted so the next customer will benefit for all that we are learning.

Regards


----------



## JAndersB

Capado said:


> Hello,
> We have left from Marseille on the 4th of March, and we are now in Gibraltar about to set sails towards Canarias. The Fox 10.20 has proved to be really good at sea with good speeds, especially reaching. Still a few twicks to do to get the maximum out of her.
> It is quite fun to have so many people stopping by in each harbour asking about the boat.
> I think this trip will help a lot getting every details sorted so the next customer will benefit for all that we are learning.
> 
> Regards


Thank you for your input, there has been a lot of debate visavi how these types of designs work as cruisers and if you can achieve bigger speeds and greater comfort with all the bits and pieces needed for a longer trip.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

Capado said:


> ...The Fox 10.20 has proved to be really good at sea with good speeds, especially reaching. Still a few twicks to do to get the maximum out of her.
> ...
> I think this trip will help a lot getting every details sorted so the next customer will benefit for all that we are learning.
> 
> Regards


Yes, certainly a good way to know how to improve a cruiser is to circumnavigate on it. A bit radical but certainly a very good way, perhaps the best way

The lifting keel is already working?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Capado

*Fox 10.20*

Hello,

Lifting keel is working properly. Best thing is that it does not move while sailing. (it had a bit, but we fixed it)
You should just be carefull not to lift it when there is some choppy sea. As it is lifted thanks to a big purchase and the mainsail winch, you just need to swet a bit to get it to the top.
So far, performances has been good. Of course you need to pay attention to the weight you carry around (as for every boat). It is all about knowing what you really need and where you want the weight to be. 
After our navigation from Gibraltar to Canarias, we'll be able to estimate better how we get to actually live on board at sea, as so far we only did small jumps from one or two days max.
A French Magazine came onboard to try the boat, although you need to subscribe to read it. And it is in French.

Regards


----------



## PCP

Capado said:


> ....
> After our navigation from Gibraltar to Canarias, we'll be able to estimate better how we get to actually live on board at sea, as so far we only did small jumps from one or two days max.
> A French Magazine came onboard to try the boat, although you need to subscribe to read it. And it is in French.
> 
> Regards


I have read the test on the paper magazine. That's why I have asked if the keel was already functional. They say on the test that the lifting system was not finnished

Keep us posted and fair winds to you

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

So I was correct in that the "nav area" if you will, was that foldable table to the aft of the mast....ok, I can handle that. In reality, quite possibly a "better" place that where the storage unit is on the port side, that would be more atypical of that floorplan. Ie where it is on my 85 Jeanneau, but most of my stuff flipped flopped if you will. Ie head nav is on the starboard, galley, aft stateroom on port. 

any way, life goes on.

Nice to see the owners of the F1020 popping in with info! look to see more.

marty


----------



## JAndersB

Here is a link to their (Capado) web page/blog. Interesting pictures from the building of the Fox 10.20.

CAPADO creative boat

regards,
Anders


----------



## daviid

*Kiriacoulis Yacht Management Program*

Hi folks

Has anyone had anything to do with Kiriacoulis and more specifically their yacht management program? They offer various schemes that allow you purchase a yacht from an approved yacht list. In exchange for the yacht being used in their yacht charter fleet for the duration of the agreement - 3.5 years or 5.5 years - you are given personal use rights that are season dependent but can add up to our required 12 weeks and they cover all expenses including marina charges and maintenance. At the end of period, the yacht is surveyed before being removed from the charter fleet or alternatively a new deal can be negotaited. In addition, you are able to use a similar yacht at any of their bases in the Mediterranean and Caribbean. The scheme has some attraction for those that will only be able to use their yacht for 3 months a year. The downside is that you are restricted in the choice of boat which brings me to my second question.

The yachts that are available in the 35 to 38 foot range are the following - Jeanneau 36i, Beneteau Oceanis 37 (the First range is not available), Bavaria Cruiser 36, Dufour 375 and believe it or not the Dufour 34e. I have asked Kiriacoulis if they would allow for some level of customisation on the yachts to improve their performance including opting for the performance version of the Jeanneau and upgrading the standard specs to suit performance cruising on the others. I have also enquired whether they would consider a Salona 37 or an Elan 350 but I am afraid not.

We would be using the yacht for coastal cruising and would prefer to have a yacht that gets us from A to B fast  We have no intention of racing or entering regattas but who knows.

After looking at all the usual performance and safety ratios, my take is as follows:

Jeanneau 36i - definitely would prefer the perfomance package, like the looks, seem to have a solid reputation for build quality and resale value. Still not sure about the weight (load bearing capability) particularly if we want to do the ARC one day and re-locate the yacht to the Caribbean. Separate shower below decks in 2 cabin version a definite plus for liveaboard. We are chartering one in September in Croatia. Could always wait for that Jeanneau 379 

Beneteau 37 - seems to be a good compromise between performance, safety, comfort and price. The polar charts actually show that the yacht is quicker than the Jeanneau 36iP! With a LOA at 11.48, beam at 3.92 and weight at approx 6350 kg, there will be more tankage and load bearing capability than the Jeanneau and the Dufour 34e. Loads of comments in the forums about poor quality finishes and most worrying that the hull is not as good as it should be though.Anyone know the STIX rating?

Bavaria Cruiser 36 - seems to have a hull that is really well built and with the right options could be a quick boat BUT I personally don't like the look that much - yachting monthly have just described it as a bloated whale and scored it 77/100 pts. Also the interior doesn't do it for me. I like contemporary but the Ikea look could get to you eventually. At 7,000 kg's the yacht is the heaviest by far which can't help in light winds. Really good value though. Anyone have the polar chart for this yacht?

Dufour 375 - great looker IMO, seems to be very beamy though and the SA/D at 18.5, although not bad, is quite a bit lower than the others. I have really struggled to find the polar charts for this yacht as well as the STIX and AVS ratings but to no avail, so I don't have the full picture yet. Also it is the most expensive - about 7% more than the Beneteau and the Jeanneau. Polar chart, STiX and AVS would be most welcome 

Dufour 34e - Again a great looker (IMO), has a racing pedigree with great comfort thrown in but it also the smallest and lightest and therefore not sure about its cruising capability. With a mast height of 15.1m, it is also possibly a little under sheeted - seems to be confirmed by comments in the forums - unless you opt for a taller rig but this requires a visit to your sailmaker which is not going to work in a yacht management program. I am thinking of chartering this boat for a week in October in Croatia for a first hand experience. Again polar chart, STIX and AVS would be most welcome.

You folks out there are way more experienced than I am and I am always keen to hear the views of the experts so any help and comments would be useful.

All the best

David


----------



## Capado

Well, I consider it as finished. But the Voiles et Voiliers guy did not try to lift the keel, so he has not seen the whole system mounted. That is maybe why.


----------



## myocean

Hi Capado!
The FoX boats make a real good impression. I am seeing the 11.60 as a nice, more comfortable alternative to the Pogo 12.50. Very interesting!
Can you let us know how much payload you actually have including crew and what speeds you achieve with that?
Ulf


----------



## PCP

New boat:

Let's look at another interesting 38ft, an Italian one. It is not really new (2008), but I like it a lot. I love the looks

The Comet 38s it is fast it's very well made, has a quality interior even if not for all tastes. It has a small defect (not any port hull) and a big one : It is expensive.

The boat has an unusually high ballast/displacement ratio (36%) probably because on its standard version does not have a bulb (can have one as an option).

The boat is really fast and the speed with light wind is great. On the Yacht magazine test they measured *with 10k wind*:

*42ºTW - 6.3K ---- 60ºTW - 7.2K ---- 90ºTW - 7.8K ---- 130º - 6.9k ---- 180º - 5.4K*

on the Solovela test they measured with with *between 10 and 16K* (without geenaker) :

*30ºAW - 7.5K ---- 60ºAW - 8.4K ---- 90ºAW - 8.1K ---- 120ºAW - 6.8K ---- 150AW - 6.5K ----- 180AW - 6.1K*

This is boat really excels in upwind performance it is a relatively narrow boat with only 3.73m of beam, light (6400kg) and with a lot of sail (80.6m2).

On Solovela they say about it:

*"Fast on the water: Very good response at the wheel, soft and comfortable on the wave passage and very good effectiveness of all sail regulations....it is on the sea that the Comet 38s show its essence: the capacity of transmitting to the wheel man information and emotion...a true thoroughbred"*



































[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## PCP

New boat, the Elan 394:

The Ean 394 is going to replace the Elan 384 on the series of more "fat" and more comfortable interior boats from Elan, the ones that are equivalent to the Oceanis Beneteau series or Jeanneau DS series.

The 384 and 434 are around for more than half a dozen years, are designed, as all Elans, by Rob Humphreys and were locked as a slightly more seaworthy alternative to the Oceanis (Beneteau) and Jeanneau Ds line even if in my opinion the overall design of Jeanneau and Benetau is better.

They have changed last year the 434 fot the 444. I saw the boat in Eslovenia and it has so ugly that I don't even posted here the photos I have taken

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

The boat looked puffed and a lot more "fat" than the previous model and I really did not understood their intention. 9 months later they still have the 434 in their catalog side by side with the 444 and that means something regarding public acceptance of the new model.

They are now presenting the 394, the one that is going to replace the 384 and by the first images, it looks a lot better than the 444 in what regards design. After the 444 I will reserve my opinion till I see more of the boat

Here are the first images:



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Hi Paulo, Azuree 40 Fast Cruiser is on my short list. I would be thankful you could give your opinion about this boat. Thanks!


Hello, welcome to Sailnet and particularly to this thread.

I have mixed fillings about the Azuree 40. Roxbot has made the same question as you and we have already discussed the boat. Look at pag. 84, post 837 and subsequent posts till 847.

Regarding what was said two new things, the Wauquiez Opium 39 is back in good health and with a new integrated carbon pole and there are another contender coming in, the RM 1260 and I suspect we will have for next summer an Elan 400 on the same lines.

Read what was said and just say what you think about it, but basically, for most the biggest objection to the Azuree was looks. If you find it attractive (I like the interiors), try the boat and if you like it, go for it. After all what one sailor finds attractive others will find ugly and that's a subjective matter anyway.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

New boat and one that looks nice even if not very innovative. The new 39 from Cantieri del Prado, the Grand Soleil 39.

This boat is the first one from the Shipyard since Bavaria had taken control. I would expect a cut in price regarding previous Grand Soleil and that would be nice news, specially because this seems to be an interesting boat.

The boat is from the same "classical" family of Salona, Comet or Dehler, with a relatively small beam (3.7m) and a relatively high ballast/displacement ratio (36%). I say relatively high because this is probably a bulbed boat and that bulb in the standard version (with that ballast ratio) with be low on the water, cause the boat has a 2.4m draft. I am sure the boat will come with a smaller draft for cruising, but then will have even more ballast and a bigger ballast ratio.

Another boat that will excel in upwind performance and will have a very good overall performance. The transom seems also to be maximized for a good downwind performance

The previous 40 was already an interesting and fast boat. I am sure this will be faster but in my opinion the bigger progress is on the interior. While the previous model had a dark mahogany interior with a very small port hull, this one will have TWO BIG port hulls and a light modern interior. I like it

The old 40 had what Europeans call modern galley and that is one all along the saloon. I never liked that disposition and this one returns to the classic layout, and it seems a lot better to me.

Lets see what they will manage with the price. The new Dehler 41 (Hanse) is coming with a lower price than usual, so I really hope this one will cost also less than the previous 40. Let's see


----------



## tdw

Hey Paulo,
Must say I quite like the Elan though to be honest probably prefer the old 384. I'm not convinced by that teardrop window shape. Twin wheels are nice, shame about the resultant short cockpit seats.


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> I have mixed fillings about the Azuree 40. Roxbot has made the same question as you and we have already discussed the boat. Look at pag. 84, post 837 and subsequent posts till 847.


Thanks. I have already read discussion twice. Just some time passed and wanted to double ask considering today's perspective. 


PCP said:


> Regarding what was said two new things, the Wauquiez Opium 39 is back in good health and with a new integrated carbon pole and there are another contender coming in, the RM 1260 and I suspect we will have for next summer an Elan 400 on the same lines.


I wouldn't be so sure about Wauquiez good health, this just based on "Group Experton-Revollier acquires Wauquiez Shipyard", but do we real know anything else? Wauquiez range is so short, that Opium 39 sales should skyrocket to be afloat. But with current competition and upcoming Elan400 and Maxi11 this hardly possible. 


PCP said:


> Read what was said and just say what you think about it, but basically, for most the biggest objection to the Azuree was looks. If you find it attractive (I like the interiors), try the boat and if you like it, go for it. After all what one sailor finds attractive others will find ugly and that's a subjective matter anyway.


The more I look at Azuree 40, the more I like it. Specially a black one then double windows "merge" with the hull. Plus bowsprit becomes part of the boat. On the over hand I do not like nor Opium 39, nor RM 1260, so "look" factor is really very personal. Azuree interior is really nice and should be perfect for a couple to liveaboard full time.


----------



## JAndersB

And then there is the factor of weight and overall "luckyness" of a design. It is interesting to read the test of for instance X-yachts XC-series of yachts. Being very similar from 38- to 50-feet, the test resultats are rather different. The 50-footer got rather dissapointing verdicts in regards to sailing characteristics while the 38- and 42-footer came out great in the tests. 

The Opium 39 and the RM1060 should both perform very well, looking at the specifications, especially the weight, but in german Yacht test the Opium last spring came out very well (9,0 knots at 90 degrees, 8-11 knot wind) but the RM 1060 as tested in the last issue did not achiew much more than 7,4 knots at 90 degrees, 12-15 knot wind despite rather windy conditions.

It seems that hull and overall design is still very difficult despite all modern tools.

The Azzuree has got rather mixed tests both in german yacht and in the english magazines. They all recommend the lighter but more expensive version.

Best regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> And then there is the factor of weight and overall "luckyness" of a design. It is interesting to read the test of for instance X-yachts XC-series of yachts. Being very similar from 38- to 50-feet, the test resultats are rather different. The 50-footer got rather dissapointing verdicts in regards to sailing characteristics while the 38- and 42-footer came out great in the tests.


Yes, but sometimes we forget that all is relative. Yes, the XC 42 come out very well in tests but, in what regards sailing when compared at the same time with the Dufour 425, a boat that costs half the price, the results were similar, including motion comfort.

Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - XC 42 versus Dufour 425 : la bande-annonce



JAndersB said:


> The Opium 39 and the RM1060 should both perform very well, looking at the specifications, especially the weight, but in german Yacht test the Opium last spring came out very well (9,0 knots at 90 degrees, 8-11 knot wind) but the RM 1060 as tested in the last issue did not achiew much more than 7,4 knots at 90 degrees, 12-15 knot wind despite rather windy conditions.


Yes, I would say that the RM 1060 is a fast boat but all the tests I have read (and were a lot) without saying the boat does not sails well (in fact they say the boat sails well) are a bit deceiving about it, like if testers were deceived too. Very far away from the enthusiastic comments those same testers made about the Elan 350, a boat that if we look at the numbers should be slow.

Regarding the Opium 39, those speeds on the German magazine are outstanding (and that is probably the most accurate magazine in what regards boat tests) but when the boat was tested with a Dufour 40e (by another magazine) with 18/20K winds, the results were not that different and the Dufour 40e for that type of performance boat is not even particularly fast. A Salona 41 is faster.

On other and I had test sailed the Opium 39 on a bit weaker winds 7 to 9 K winds (compared with the German test conditions) and I was really impressed, the boat was doing always over 6K speed and it reached 8K and I was not using a big Geenaker like the Germans had.

YouTube - Match au sommet voiliers de 40 pieds !



JAndersB said:


> The Azzuree has got rather mixed tests both in german yacht and in the english magazines. They all recommend the lighter but more expensive version.


In what regards sailing I would not call them "mixed" results. They all found it a very fast sail boat. I would say that those mixed results had to to more with styling and the type of boat that does not suit to everybody tastes. However they all said that the Azuree 40 is a lot of boat for the money and from all boats from this type is probably the one that offers more for the money. None has such a big interior even if I bet that the one from Wauquiez has a better quality one.

I am not saying that it is the fastest, I have no doubts that the Pogo 12.50 is way faster and that probably the Opium 39 is faster too, unless we are talking about the lighter and more expensive version of the Azuree 40, but even so the Azuree is a fast and interesting cruiser.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

JAndersB said:


> The Azzuree has got rather mixed tests both in german yacht and in the english magazines. They all recommend the lighter but more expensive version.


Displacement differs just by 200kg: Fast Cruiser 7,100kg vs Cruiser 7,300kg. Better results due to draft (2.6m vs 2.16m) and sail area (97sqm vs 90sqm) difference. But there is a performance package for Cruiser: Aluminum performance mast + 2.60 m Performance keel with lead bulb + Rod Rigging (+10k euro). Not sure if 50k euro price difference is justified.

p.s. Maybe someone has to share this German magazine test? Azuree 33/Azuree 40: Scharfe Sache mit scharfen Kanten


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Thanks. I have already read discussion twice. Just some time passed and wanted to double ask considering today's perspective.
> 
> I wouldn't be so sure about Wauquiez good health, this just based on "Group Experton-Revollier acquires Wauquiez Shipyard", but do we real know anything else? Wauquiez range is so short, that Opium 39 sales should skyrocket to be afloat. But with current competition and upcoming Elan400 and Maxi11 this hardly possible.


Yes you are right in pointing the Maxi 11 as a very interesting boat among this kind of fast cruisers even if I think it is going to be a much narrower boat, but I am afraid that one will cost way too much, as unfortunately all Max boats to be a problem to the Opium 39 and I bet that the Elan 40 is going to be a lot more heavier than the Opium and with a worse quality interior. I think the Opium 39 will only be replaced, commercially speaking, by another similar boat made by Wauquiez. It's bigger problem is to be a several year's old design, even if it is a GREAT design and the god point is that I believe that is the right moment to get great deals on that boat with Wauquiez.

Regarding the wauquiez sailboats, it has not such a small line, they have the pilot saloon line and they are going to have a bigger Opium. When I have said that it is on good health I mean that you would take no risk in commanding an Opium 39 now because they had a huge injection of money and are not in the hands of a small company that tries to survive but in the hands of a group that has an annual turnover of 450 millions € a year. I don't know if they are going to survive at long term (if they are a good business for the group) but I know that they will be fine at least for an year or two. I really hope they make it because Wauquiez has really a big tradition in the sailing world and it would be a shame to lose it.

https://plus.ibinews.com/article/9c...by_Experton_Revollier_Group/?nsl=FxIaeWDxv5Zq



G1000 said:


> The more I look at Azuree 40, the more I like it. Specially a black one then double windows "merge" with the hull. Plus bowsprit becomes part of the boat. On the over hand I do not like nor Opium 39, nor RM 1260, so "look" factor is really very personal. Azuree interior is really nice and should be perfect for a couple to liveaboard full time.


Yes, I agree that a black hull will look a lot better on that boat and that would hide those two series of hull ports. You have also the visual problem on those two similar ports on the "roof", on the side, over the galley. If you look at the sportive version, the Orange one, you will see that they don't have that opening over the Galley that joins the two ports and make them ugly. I am sure you can have two smaller openings, one in each port (over the Galley) and that would improve a lot the looks.

I agree that this boat has a great interior for cruising, one of the best if not the best in all performance 40fts and that at least for me, it would be more than enough for a couple living aboard.

Some videos:

The one from Yachtingworld test and two with the boat sailing with lot's of wind and another one here they sailed with a sail that should already be reefed . This is a boat that has a lot of stability but that gains in being reefed early otherwise it can take a lot of heel (like the Pogo or the Opium 39). Not dangerous on the boat stability or problematic in what regards sailing but not comfortable in what regards a cruising crew, taking into account the dimensions of the large cockpit and the big transom.

YouTube - Azuree 40 boat test.mov

YouTube - azuree 40 forza 7 cecchini

YouTube - azuree 40 lasco 30 nodi CECCHINI BALLERINI TOMASSI

YouTube - Azuree 40 sailing.MOD

I have found out more and nicer pictures. See what I mean regarding those two port hulls over the galley (orange and white boat) and see how the boat looks better in the Orange version mainly because those port hulls are not so visible. It would look even better with a black hull.









































































Azuree 40 | Ceccarelli Yacht Design & Engineering

If you are going to test sail one of those I would be very interested in hearing your comments about it and if you really buy one of those I would loved to have the chance to test sail it with you . Keep us informed please, there is more people around interested in a Azuree, on the 40 and on its little sister, the 33.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> Yes you are right in pointing the Maxi 11 as a very interesting boat among this kind of fast cruisers even if I think it is going to be a much narrower boat, but I am afraid that one will cost way too much, as unfortunately all Max boats


Price target for Maxi 11 is aprox. 200k euro (of course it just a rumors), same as Azuree 40 FC. I guess Elan 40 should be about the same.


PCP said:


> Yes, I agree that a black hull will look a lot better on that boat and that would hide those two series of hull ports. You have also the visual problem on those two similar ports on the "roof", on the side, over the galley. If you look at the sportive version, the Orange one, you will see that they don't have that opening over the Galley that joins the two ports and make them ugly. I am sure you can have two smaller openings, one in each port (over the Galley) and that would improve a lot the looks.


 Black hull with orange lines is very nice. There is one big opening for all versions, just on some orange one plexiglass is divided (or maybe just a white sticker). I guess some boats could be without this opening just for racing and without oven with burner. Plexiglass


PCP said:


> I agree that this boat has a great interior for cruising, one of the best if not the best in all performance 40fts and that at least for me, it would be more than enough for a couple living aboard.


 Plus if double-handed both aft cabins could be used just for storage or at least one  


PCP said:


> I have found out more and nicer pictures. See what I mean regarding those two port hulls over the galley (orange and white boat) and see how the boat looks better in the Orange version mainly because those port hulls are not so visible. It would look even better with a black hull.


 Probably I have already all possible pics  Very interesting one are from factory and launch:
Factory Photos 1
Factory Photos 2
Azuree 40 launch
Pennetti Cup 2011


PCP said:


> If you are going to test sail one of those I would be very interested in hearing your comments about it and if you really buy one of those I would loved to have the chance to test sail it with you . Keep us informed please, there is more people around interested in a Azuree, on the 40 and on its little sister, the 33.


 Maybe we could charter Cruiser in Marmaris and give it a good test drive  Azuree 40 Cruiser


----------



## JAndersB

Nice set up in the factory. 

I also like many aspects of these boats inlcuding many hull windows. But (as on the Dufour 40e) I do not like the divided vindows. On the outside the hull and top windows are rather dominant, from the inside they are very small and give the impression of trying to look out from inside a bunker, through narrow slots for the gun , not seeing very much. Do you know if they can make them bigger or continous? The Hanse/Sirius set up where they are standing (and bigger) is much nicer, or like on RM and Opium as one single piece.

Even if many magazines likes the sailing characteristic of the 40 they are somewhat complaining about it beeing nose heavy, especially when heeled. That can also be seen on the videos.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## bjung

Most of the boats in the last few pages share one puzzling little detail. No handholds below, some even missing above. Has safety become an option?


----------



## G1000

JAndersB said:


> Do you know if they can make them bigger or continous?


Doubt it is possible. Check this plain hull photo: Azuree hull. I personally not very much bothered with such hull windows.


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Price target for Maxi 11 is aprox. 200k euro (of course it just a rumors), same as Azuree 40 FC. I guess Elan 40 should be about the same.
> ...


Yes, but 200 000 euros...without VAT, and we are only talking about a 37ft and comparing it with 40ft. The price of Elan 410 and Azuree without taxes is a bit over 140 000 €....we are talking here about a 60 000 € difference for a smaller boat. That's huge and that's the price you have to pay for some Swedish and Finn Yactts, like the Sweden yacht or Finngulf.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> Yes, but 200 000 euros...without VAT, and we are only talking about a 37ft and comparing it with 40ft. The price of Elan 410 and Azuree without taxes is a bit over 140 000 €....we are talking here about a 60 000 € difference for a smaller boat. That's huge and that's the price you have to pay for some Swedish and Finn Yactts, lile the Sweden yacht or Finngulf.


Minus 3ft is just a premium for a factory on Scandinavian soil To be exact Azuree 40 Cruiser 157k euro, Fast Cruiser 205k euro.


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Most of the boats in the last few pages share one puzzling little detail. No handholds below, some even missing above. Has safety become an option?


What are you talking about?. I see plenty of handholds on the Azuree 40, the Grand Soleil 39 is only a drawing , the Xp44 and the Fox 10.20 have plenty and only the Comet 38 seems to lack them

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

On post 296, pag 30 I have posted about the new Dehler 41.

There are now more pictures and I know more about the boat. Fact is that in between I got really interested in it and not only for this thread but as my next boat. They are offering a very good price for the first boats and that with a good discount allied to the fact that it is these kind of boats I prefer almost made it for me .

So why not? Well this boat, like the First 40, is really two boats in one. One heavy (8300k) balsa cored and another one lighter, airex cored and with a much higher specification. The first one that they call Standard, or cruising, is not expensive the second one is. The first is going to be slow for a performance boat (but not for a regular cruiser), the second is going to be alright.

Well, I like the expensive and fast one  but for that price I can have better and also the picture of the interior is not very appealing, with all that white and the mast on the middle of the boat...sure the Dehlers have a sweet finish and interior quality, but after having looked at that interior picture I would not have bought one without have seen it for real.

The boat is not as narrow as the Salona or the Grand Soleil, a bit more than the First and less than the Dufour 40e and will have a relatively high ballsat/displacement ratio. Lots of stability on this one, it will be a stiff boat that would take a lot of wind before reffing and a seaworthy boat.

The heavier version will be a very good bluewater cruising boat but not really a performance boat. The lighter version will be both things, I mean a performance boat and a good cruiser, but it will be more expensive than the Dufour 40e, the Elan 410 or the Salona 41. Anyway, less expensive than what the Dehlers used to be.

It is really a nice looking boat and I dont mean the interior . That one I have to see for real. A huge step forward regarding the old Dehler 39, a good boat but that should have been replaced sooner for a more modern and faster boat. Well, it´s done


----------



## tdw

Nice boat the Dehler though I've always had a soft spot for them. In reality however I don't see that it has serious appeal for me but that may be simply a case of me getting old. 

Paulo, we sailed up the coast over Easter. 80nm run up to Port Stephens. Typical NSW SW conditions. Breeze 15- 20 out of the SW, swell out the SE. We plonked along at 6.5 - 7.5 with the occasional burst of 8.5 off the bottom of the odd wave. To be honest, I'm not sure I want to go much faster than that particularly in those conditions which are fairly typical of the NSW coast.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Nice boat the Dehler though I've always had a soft spot for them. In reality however I don't see that it has serious appeal for me but that may be simply a case of me getting old.
> 
> Paulo, we sailed up the coast over Easter. 80nm run up to Port Stephens. Typical NSW SW conditions. Breeze 15- 20 out of the SW, swell out the SE. We plonked along at 6.5 - 7.5 with the occasional burst of 8.5 off the bottom of the odd wave. To be honest, I'm not sure I want to go much faster than that particularly in those conditions which are fairly typical of the NSW coast.


Nice to see you are having fun I don't know what currents you have there but I can tell you that even the cruiser version "heavy" Dehler 41 would make that trip with a two more K average speed than your steel 34ft Van de Stadt.

Some on this thread would say that the Dehler is way to slow and want a boat that can make that trip in half the time and that would not be difficult with a Pogo 12.50. Some would say that they could not care less about the speed and would be happy to go slower with some small traditional full keel boat (even if you don't find many of those on this thread ).

The way each of us enjoy sailing is a particular one and speed is sometimes part of the equation. I love speed but I have done (and probably I am going to continue to do) a lot of upwind and light wind sailing, so my priorities are for a fast boat that can sail very well in very light winds and that can go easily and comfortably upwind. but my wife that does not sail the boat (she is reading all the time) also wants a fast boat

I explain: We make a lot of 80nm legs, like 10 days in a row and that means in a 6K boat to sail out at 7.0 AM and to arrive at 8.30 PM after a nice sailing day. Normally we chose some nice place to stop but we do not enjoy the place as we would like. We only manage to make a landfall (after storing the boat and having a shower) at about 9.30 , returning to the boat at around 1.0 AM . No shopping (and that pisses my wife) that is always finding beautiful and inexpensive things on closed shops (and I am alright with that ) but that means also that most of the time we cannot sail away at 7.00, but only after the opening of the first shops (she wants fresh bread and vegetables) and that happens at 8.00 or 8.30.

And that is with the Bavaria 36 that is a 6K boat, with a 34 steel boat I would not be sailing most of the time and I would not average more than 5K speed on the kind of weather I normally get.

Some would say, don't do 80nm, do less. Well, most of the time I do less cause I cannot sail away at 7.00 (I love to sail away when the sun is low on the horizon and the day is coming) but only at 8.30 or 8.45 (that fresh bread thing is almost an imposition from my family ) and that means that most of the time we are arriving later, at sunset or don't manage to do 80nm but only 70.

Some would still say: do less than 70 miles, but less than that is really going too slow and taking a lot of time for making a way to some far destination.

Me and my wife would like to have a boat capable of a 7/7.5 k average speed. Some would say that is meaningless, that is just 1 or 1,5 K over the Bavaria average speed. Yes it is, but that would mean that we would arrive almost 3 hours sooner and that would mean to find all shops open, to dinner at a more proper time enjoying sunset and to enjoy more 3 hours at a nice place (new town) and to be able to sail away at 7.00 with fresh food and bread. That is important for both of us.

I know that all of us have different sailing programs. Me and Isabel love to cruise and to cruise for us is being on the move and knowing nice new places and for that we want a fast sailing boat. Well besides that I want also a fast sailing boat because it is a lot more fun to sail . Isabel does not care about that. She will be reading.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
very nice of you to give "a face" to a strive after a certain passage making speed. I also agree with you regarding the big effect a small speed increase will have when making longer distances. 

I would like to add to what you say another aspect that I have already touched at earlier in this thread. As a former windsurfer it is in my bones to always try and get the thing I am using for sailing into planing condition. Besides giving a huge boost in shopping time  it will give the sailing sensation an even bigger boost. 

Once again, last sunday, I had dream conditions with my Dehler 43 CWS here in Sweden. Sunshine and 18-22 knots of wind from 120 degrees thrue. First hour very nice with speeds around 8-9 knots (full main and jib) but then I once again got frustrated by not reaching "the higher" level so to say, and I had again to settle with cruising along at this speed. Ocassionally I got a wave to take me to 10 knot but only for very short periods. Pitty you can not pump a sailboat on to planing speed, as I could with my board.

And even if I am contemplating a switch to an Opium, RM or similar, I think I will be dissapointed in their speed too, as we have discussed before. On a windsurfer we dont carry any gear, on a boat we doo...

Regards,
Anders


----------



## bb74

daviid said:


> Hi folks
> 
> Has anyone had anything to do with Kiriacoulis and more specifically their yacht management program? They offer various schemes that allow you purchase a yacht from an approved yacht list. In exchange for the yacht being used in their yacht charter fleet for the duration of the agreement - 3.5 years or 5.5 years - you are given personal use rights that are season dependent but can add up to our required 12 weeks and they cover all expenses including marina charges and maintenance. At the end of period, the yacht is surveyed before being removed from the charter fleet or alternatively a new deal can be negotaited. In addition, you are able to use a similar yacht at any of their bases in the Mediterranean and Caribbean. The scheme has some attraction for those that will only be able to use their yacht for 3 months a year. The downside is that you are restricted in the choice of boat which brings me to my second question.
> 
> The yachts that are available in the 35 to 38 foot range are the following - Jeanneau 36i, Beneteau Oceanis 37 (the First range is not available), Bavaria Cruiser 36, Dufour 375 and believe it or not the Dufour 34e. I have asked Kiriacoulis if they would allow for some level of customisation on the yachts to improve their performance including opting for the performance version of the Jeanneau and upgrading the standard specs to suit performance cruising on the others. I have also enquired whether they would consider a Salona 37 or an Elan 350 but I am afraid not.
> 
> We would be using the yacht for coastal cruising and would prefer to have a yacht that gets us from A to B fast  We have no intention of racing or entering regattas but who knows.
> 
> After looking at all the usual performance and safety ratios, my take is as follows:
> 
> Jeanneau 36i - definitely would prefer the perfomance package, like the looks, seem to have a solid reputation for build quality and resale value. Still not sure about the weight (load bearing capability) particularly if we want to do the ARC one day and re-locate the yacht to the Caribbean. Separate shower below decks in 2 cabin version a definite plus for liveaboard. We are chartering one in September in Croatia. Could always wait for that Jeanneau 379
> 
> Beneteau 37 - seems to be a good compromise between performance, safety, comfort and price. The polar charts actually show that the yacht is quicker than the Jeanneau 36iP! With a LOA at 11.48, beam at 3.92 and weight at approx 6350 kg, there will be more tankage and load bearing capability than the Jeanneau and the Dufour 34e. Loads of comments in the forums about poor quality finishes and most worrying that the hull is not as good as it should be though.Anyone know the STIX rating?
> 
> Bavaria Cruiser 36 - seems to have a hull that is really well built and with the right options could be a quick boat BUT I personally don't like the look that much - yachting monthly have just described it as a bloated whale and scored it 77/100 pts. Also the interior doesn't do it for me. I like contemporary but the Ikea look could get to you eventually. At 7,000 kg's the yacht is the heaviest by far which can't help in light winds. Really good value though. Anyone have the polar chart for this yacht?
> 
> Dufour 375 - great looker IMO, seems to be very beamy though and the SA/D at 18.5, although not bad, is quite a bit lower than the others. I have really struggled to find the polar charts for this yacht as well as the STIX and AVS ratings but to no avail, so I don't have the full picture yet. Also it is the most expensive - about 7% more than the Beneteau and the Jeanneau. Polar chart, STiX and AVS would be most welcome
> 
> Dufour 34e - Again a great looker (IMO), has a racing pedigree with great comfort thrown in but it also the smallest and lightest and therefore not sure about its cruising capability. With a mast height of 15.1m, it is also possibly a little under sheeted - seems to be confirmed by comments in the forums - unless you opt for a taller rig but this requires a visit to your sailmaker which is not going to work in a yacht management program. I am thinking of chartering this boat for a week in October in Croatia for a first hand experience. Again polar chart, STIX and AVS would be most welcome.
> 
> You folks out there are way more experienced than I am and I am always keen to hear the views of the experts so any help and comments would be useful.
> 
> All the best
> 
> David


I have rented with them in Bormes les Mimosas (Bavaria 38 cruiser), and will be renting again in 2 weeks a Bene 37. Happy to let you know what I think of it. I'm chartering a SO 36i for 2 weeks in August in Ajaccio Corsica and can do likewise if you're not in a rush for info. Kiriakoulis are serious, well managed and operating from my limited first hand experience. I haven't had any business or own/lease discussions with them but I have looked at their purchase prices and they are competitive. Their base locations are pretty good if you want varied stomping grounds for charters.


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> ... I also agree with you regarding the big effect a small speed increase will have when making longer distances.
> ....
> Once again, last sunday, I had dream conditions with my Dehler 43 CWS here in Sweden. Sunshine and 18-22 knots of wind from 120 degrees thrue. First hour very nice with speeds around 8-9 knots (full main and jib) but then I once again got frustrated by not reaching "the higher" level so to say, and I had again to settle with cruising along at this speed. Ocassionally I got a wave to take me to 10 knot but only for very short periods. Pitty you can not pump a sailboat on to planing speed, as I could with my board.
> 
> And even if I am contemplating a switch to an Opium, RM or similar, I think I will be dissapointed in their speed too, as we have discussed before. On a windsurfer we dont carry any gear, on a boat we doo...
> ..


Hi Anders,

I don't think you would notice a big difference in speed between your boat and a Rm 1200. We will see about the RM 1260. Probably with a lot of wind you can go one or two K faster downwind, but you would not gain anything upwind. Regarding the Opium I am pretty sure you will notice the difference, on light wind speed and downwind, but you really have to sail one to see what I mean. I can tell you that there are a huge difference in speed between the Opium 39 and the Rm 1200, and not only speed but also in feeling at the wheel.

I have said already that I find your boat (Dehler 43CWS) one of the best from the 90's. Let me compare it with the new Dehler 41. They have some very close measures even if one is a 41 and the other a 43.

Of course the hull is very different with the new Dehler with a beam much more brought aft and a larger transom. The hull is also a semi-planning hull, much more than the one from the 43 and the boat is lighter, much lighter in the performance version that I prefer : less 1200 kg, the same sail area, a more modern and planning hull about the same beam and the same LWL will make the new 41 Dehler performance boat much faster and a boat that will sail a lot better with light winds and much better in downwind speed.

Regarding what they call the cruising version that as I have said is a remarkably less expensive boat but a boat with lower specifications everywhere, the sail area is the same (unless they have a racing rig that is not yet specified for the performance version) the hull is also the same even if cored with balsa instead of airex but the weight is very different: 8280Kg, more 800 kg than the performance version but less 420kg than on the older Dehler 43 CWS.

The performance between the two Dehler versions will be really big but even the "cruiser" one will be significantly faster than the 43 CWS, not only because it has less weight for the same sail but because it has a more modern hull. The difference will be also more noticed in light wind and in downwind sailing with lot's of wind.

Anders, why not one of these new babies, I mean the performance version? I bet that you would notice the diference

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Paulo, I take your point and if I was doing a succession of 80nm hops I'd also think the extra couple of knots would be important.

Reality is however that I'm a dawdler, a slowpoke, someone who enjoys getting to an anchorage and hanging around for a few days. 

I think that is why we (that is all of us , not you and me) have these long term discussions on the subject of the "perfect" cruising boat. Need to do 80nm every day for ten days ? Hell yeah, I'd want the fastest possible ride as well. Do a lot of day sailing ? Give me speed. I wanna boogie. 

Lets face it, I spend far more time slouching about , reading, listening to music, eating and drinking than I do actually sailing. Now I don't want a complete slug and yes I admit that our dear old Raven does not move in under 5knots of wind and really needs plus ten to get along little doggy (dogey?) but if I can passage make on the basis of 5knts average, reality is I am content. 

To have sailed a true performance yacht up to Port Stephens in those conditions would have been seriously exhilarating with a crew of four or more. For a crew of two old farts like us it would have been exhausting. Were we doing the same up north near the Whitsundays then the fast boat would have been a gem not doubt, in the seas we were in not so much.

Cheers

A


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
the main reason I do not want to go that road is that I have partially been there already and found a big drawback. Sailing single handed and often with a lot of sail area up for the thrill, modern fat aft hull sections demads twin rudders for control (or constant adjustment of main sail track, which is OK with good crew), and no manufacturer provides that in the boat type you refer to. Only Benetau has started now with the Sense, but as said before they are rather heavy.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## yus

Hello dear friends,
First of all pls accept my apologies for my poor english.
Well, I have read with pleasure the articles of this thread. We live aboard our blue water cruiser boat for 9 years and now it is time to buy a new different type of boat. We are very much interested in the new fast cruiser boats below 40 feet, we appreciate the concept and the main features. We need a strong and safe boat which is also suitable to live aboard. I know a 40 feet could be the best solution but our purchase budget is limited and also we need to keep low the expenses.
The Azuree 33 seems to be very attractive (I have read almost all your articles in the thread). In the same cat and range price I have found the Elan 350, which is pretty too. In a different category (cheaper also) there is the Oceanis 34, but I have some doubts about her general building quality and safety. Same feeling for the bigger sister Oceanis 37, which anyway could represent a good compromise quality-living space/price. But the first two boats are much more attractive. An other boat to investigate could be the RM 1050, but I don't know to much about this model. I don't like the galley and the front cabin. I loved the 1200 but out of range. 
I would appreciate your comments about what I said and my needs. Any type of support will be more than welcome.
Yus


----------



## PCP

yus said:


> Hello dear friends,
> First of all pls accept my apologies for my poor english.
> Well, I have read with pleasure the articles of this thread. We live aboard our blue water cruiser boat for 9 years and now it is time to buy a new different type of boat. We are very much interested in the new fast cruiser boats below 40 feet, we appreciate the concept and the main features. We need a strong and safe boat which is also suitable to live aboard. I know a 40 feet could be the best solution but our purchase budget is limited and also we need to keep low the expenses.
> The Azuree 33 seems to be very attractive (I have read almost all your articles in the thread). In the same cat and range price I have found the Elan 350, which is pretty too. In a different category (cheaper also) there is the Oceanis 34, but I have some doubts about her general building quality and safety. Same feeling for the bigger sister Oceanis 37, which anyway could represent a good compromise quality-living space/price. But the first two boats are much more attractive. An other boat to investigate could be the RM 1050, but I don't know to much about this model. I don't like the galley and the front cabin. I loved the 1200 but out of range.
> I would appreciate your comments about what I said and my needs. Any type of support will be more than welcome.
> Yus


Hello Yus,

Welcome to Sailnet and particularly to this thread

It would help to know the boat you are living in. You are used to that space and makes no sense in changing to a boat with less space.

Yes, the Azuree 33 and the Elan 350 are great boats and if I lived alone I would not have problems in living permanently on one but if I lived with someone I would prefer the Oceanis 37. I like a lot more the Elan 350 in what regards sailing but the Oceanis 37 has really a lot more interior space and a more agreeable one. For living aboard tankage is also important and again the Oceanis 37 is a lot better in what regards that. Another boat you should consider is the new Jeanneau 379. It seems interesting to me and should no be much more expensive than the Oceanis 37.

NEW MODEL ANNOUNCEMENT - JEANNEAU SUN ODYSSEY 379 - Jeanneau News from Sea Ventures (UK) Ltd

I agree that by far the boat more suited for you would be the RM 1200. He is going out of production and that means that there will be some interesting boats in the market at a reasonable price even if the demand is very big on the used market for that boat. Maybe you can find a 2003 boat (that's when the model started) for 150 000 € (that seems to be your budget) and probably that would be the better option, or at least the one I would try if I was choosing a boat for living aboard and have 150 000€.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> boats in the market at a reasonable price even if the demand is very big on the used market for that boat. Maybe you can find a 2003 boat (that's when the model started) for 150 000 € (that seems to be your budget)


Hi Paulo!
thinking about the future sales price of a used boat is always an interesting issue for me. I won't keep it indefinitely...
Do you think the loss in value of an RM is especially low? How is this in comparison with a Pogo, an Opium, First or other boats? What do you think?
Ulf


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi Paulo,
> the main reason I do not want to go that road is that I have partially been there already and found a big drawback. Sailing single handed and often with a lot of sail area up for the thrill, modern fat aft hull sections demads twin rudders for control (or constant adjustment of main sail track, which is OK with good crew), and no manufacturer provides that in the boat type you refer to. Only Benetau has started now with the Sense, but as said before they are rather heavy.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Hi Anders,

The Sense is not only heavy is also fat it is not designed to plane and is not very bright upwind (worse than the Oceanis). It is a boat that is interesting but I don't think it is what you are looking after.

I agree with what you say but you are exaggerating a bit and it also depends a lot on the boat. Twin rudders give better downwind control but a well designed hull is also part of the equation. I remember reading a post of a luffe 43 owner saying that he had sailed his boat (with all the family) inside doing 16/17k with fingertip control:

- LUFFE YACHTS - News

Yes it will be slightly better with two rudders but a modern hull with the draft brought back is very stable downwind. The other problem with a single rudder is to lost control sooner at the limit and broach the boat more easily . But the new Dehler have (like your boat) a high ballast/displacement ratio and has a much deeper ruder. I don't think you will have any problems controlling this boat with a short crew or solo (of course the limits will not be the same but I believe you can sail very fast solo on this boat).

I also believe it will be harder to broach than your boat (deeper rudder about the same RM, a more modern hull) and I believe your boat does not broach easily. A Opium 39 a 1200 RM or a Pogo have a much bigger need regarding two rudders because they are more beamy boats. The Dehler 41, like the First 40 or the Salona 41 are much narrower boats and that has nothing to do with the broad stern. Broad sterns have to do with beam brought aft, even on a narrow boat.

For me the bigger problems with these new generation "classic" fast sailboats (First, Dehler, Salona) has to do with the draft of the rudder. I would not have a 2.00m draft boat with one of those rudders. The keel and the rudder would be at almost the same level and that seems imprudent to me.

Take a look at the rudder on the 43CWS on a 2.0 m draft boat: way up regarding the keel.










Now take a look at this drawing with the Dehler showing the 2.40 and 2.20 (standard) keels. They have a short draft keel with 2.00 with the same ruder. Can you imagine it? That's the same with the First and the Salona: on the 1.98m keel version the rudder and the keel are practically level. Weird looking 
in what concerns me, I mean the keel and rudder at the same level 









Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
as I said I have been there and tried that with previous models from my Dehler. Some of them had as deep rudders as keel (almost 2 m) but it did not help. The Dehler 43 CWS rudder is also rather deep and big, but as you pointed out not to that extent, but mainly due to big ballast ratio and especially due to narrower aft section, is almost impossible to get it to round up. 

We discussed this before Paulo and it is always good to give things a second thought . As I said before, boats with low ballast ratio and a lot of form stability can be very nice and fast in the right conditions (as was even my Beneteau Oceanis 40) but conditions are very seldom so stable as when these boats excel, or you need a very active crew on the sheets (and rail). 

I agree, there are shades of heat also in hell  , but basically, twin rudders and planing hulls is what I am looking for.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi Paulo,
> as I said I have been there and tried that with previous models from my Dehler. Some of them had as deep rudders as keel (almost 2 m) but it did not help. The Dehler 43 CWS rudder is also rather deep and big, but as you pointed out not to that extent, but mainly due to big ballast ratio and especially due to narrower aft section, is almost impossible to get it to round up.
> ....
> I agree, there are shades of heat also in hell  , but basically, twin rudders and planing hulls is what I am looking for.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Anders, I would be the last to dispute that preference because it suits me well but I insist that the shape of the transom and the beam brought back has a lot to do with downwind increased stability even if two rudders can be a plus.

What I was trying to say is that in what regards hull design, shape of the hull, beam brought aft and large transom this is the first Dehler with this hull configuration. I don't think that any experience with other Dehlers is relevant in what regards downwind sailing.

If you go to the site and see the different hull shapes from the other Dehler you are going to understand what I mean.

This boat belongs in that regard to a new generation. More are coming, the Xp 38, the Max 11 and I bet it is going to be a standard from now on for this type of boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo, I take your point and if I was doing a succession of 80nm hops I'd also think the extra couple of knots would be important.
> 
> Reality is however that I'm a dawdler, a slowpoke, someone who enjoys getting to an anchorage and hanging around for a few days.
> 
> I think that is why we (that is all of us , not you and me) have these long term discussions on the subject of the "perfect" cruising boat. Need to do 80nm every day for ten days ? Hell yeah, I'd want the fastest possible ride as well. Do a lot of day sailing ? Give me speed. I wanna boogie.
> 
> Lets face it, I spend far more time slouching about , reading, listening to music, eating and drinking than I do actually sailing. Now I don't want a complete slug and yes I admit that our dear old Raven does not move in under 5knots of wind and really needs plus ten to get along little doggy (dogey?) but if I can passage make on the basis of 5knts average, reality is I am content.
> 
> To have sailed a true performance yacht up to Port Stephens in those conditions would have been seriously exhilarating with a crew of four or more. For a crew of two old farts like us it would have been exhausting. Were we doing the same up north near the Whitsundays then the fast boat would have been a gem not doubt, in the seas we were in not so much.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> A


Hey Andrews,

I agree with everything you said except with the last part. On this thread you find lots of different boats for lots of sailors with different needs and tastes. I like the differences and the different types of boats. If I could I would have several and one of them with be a classic one, a fast boat from the 30's.

Regarding this:

*To have sailed a true performance yacht up to Port Stephens in those conditions would have been seriously exhilarating with a crew of four or more. For a crew of two old farts like us it would have been exhausting.*

I don't think you are right. See, a performance boat has a huge stability that is needed to carry a lot of sail. If you push the boat and go really fast yes it could be a fun but sportive and tiring ride. But reef those sails go at less 1 or 1.5K (and even so faster than other no performance boats) and that superior stability (RM) will give you a no thrills fast and efficient motion with plenty of directional stability and little heel.

As an old Dragonfly solo cruiser (more than 70 year's old) said to a friend of mine when he asked him if that fast trimaran was not too much for him: "Well, I can go slower, but you can't go faster"

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

May be this illustrates what Paulo and Anders mean with easy sailing on light boats with lots of stability:

Dailymotion - Petit surf Ã* 20 nds - une vidÃ©o Sports & Extreme

Nobody on the rail, no stress, just a concentrated driver and one crew winching up to the sharpening apparent.

Enjoy!

Eric


----------



## yus

PCP said:


> Hello Yus,
> 
> Welcome to Sailnet and particularly to this thread
> 
> It would help to know the boat you are living in. You are used to that space and makes no sense in changing to a boat with less space.
> 
> Paulo


Hello Paulo,

Thanks for you reply.
The boat we own at the moment is a Baba 35 (Perry design). It is very confortable for us and very safe, but we took decision to change type of boat and have two cabins to give a better accomodation to some friends. I think the new concept of boat, which is represented by the Azuree 33, Should be more roomy inside compare to my Baba. The Azuree uses the full lenght and it is also more width. I think we should appreciate the difference in terms of space. What do you think about?
The Elan 350 is nice too but I prefer the Azuree, I think is more roomy inside.

Regards, yus.


----------



## PCP

yus said:


> Hello Paulo,
> 
> Thanks for you reply.
> The boat we own at the moment is a Baba 35 (Perry design). It is very confortable for us and very safe, but we took decision to change type of boat and have two cabins to give a better accomodation to some friends. I think the new concept of boat, which is represented by the Azuree 33, Should be more roomy inside compare to my Baba. The Azuree uses the full lenght and it is also more width. I think we should appreciate the difference in terms of space. What do you think about?
> The Elan 350 is nice too but I prefer the Azuree, I think is more roomy inside.
> 
> Regards, yus.


Hei Yus, I had a look at the Baba 35 and it is a nice boat with a cozy interior, but certainly a slow one

Baba 35 Review : Bluewaterboats.org

Regarding the Azuree 33, it is very unusual to me to say that I think the slower boat is better but it is what I think in your case. I don't think the problem would be the interior space but the loading capacity. The Baba has a big load capacity. It can carry 75 gallons of fuel and 100 of water. Well on the Azuree 33 the fuel tank dimension is not very important because it is a very good sailing boat that can sail with very weak winds, but the water is indispensable for having the autonomy for staying some days atanchor. The Azuree only has a water tankage of 160L and that's really not enough for living aboard. the Elan 350 has and identical problem. I think that this will be the biggest problem, not the interior space.

I really think that the Oceanis 37 (346 L of water) or the new Jeanneau 379 (336L of water) are a more realistic option.

Anyway these would be incomparably faster than the Baba and the Jeanneau will have a performance version that will be even faster (and faster than the Azuree 33). These boats will also have a much bigger freezer and a lot more storage space and probably can carry almost the same load of the old Baba 35.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> The Baba has a big load capacity. It can carry 75 gallons of fuel and 100 of water. Well on the Azuree 33 the fuel tank dimension is not very important because it is a very good sailing boat that can sail with very weak winds, but the water is indispensable for having the autonomy for staying some days atanchor. The Azuree only has a water tankage of 160L and that's really not enough for living aboard. the Elan 350 has and identical problem. I think that this will be the biggest problem, not the interior space.


I think for living aboard a good solution for this issue which is actually a weight-issue is a watermaker. Use the water tank as buffer and for safety but use the watermaker for the continuous demand. However the energy for this needs to come from somewhere, e.g. from the watt-and-sea generator. So its going to be expensive...


----------



## yus

PCP said:


> Hei Yus, I had a look at the Baba 35 and it is a nice boat with a cozy interior, but certainly a slow one ....
> The Azuree only has a water tankage of 160L and that's really not enough for living aboard. the Elan 350 has and identical problem. I think that this will be the biggest problem, not the interior space.
> ... I think that this will be the biggest problem, not the interior space.
> 
> ....
> 
> Paulo


Hello Paulo,
I think the Azuree is more strong and safe than the Oceanis 37.
About the poor water storage capacity I think it should not be a big problem because I intend to use a water mater.
My biggest problem concerns the living space in the galley and cabins, but your reply satisfies me.
Could you make a comparison between RM 1050 and the Azuree 33?
Mainly based on safety and internal space.
Regards,
Yus


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> I think for living aboard a good solution for this issue which is actually a weight-issue is a watermaker. Use the water tank as buffer and for safety but use the watermaker for the continuous demand. However the energy for this needs to come from somewhere, e.g. from the watt-and-sea generator. So its going to be expensive...


For living aboard a watermaker as a good solution? It seems a good solution for voyaging but for two living aboard and take occasionally as guests another couple?

This boat has not space for the generator so you would have to run the engine not only to recharge batteries for the lights and the freezer but also to run the watermaker. All the alternative power solutions (wind and solar) would not even get close of 1/3 of the energy needs and the boat has only a 96L diesel tank. It would not be not only expensive as also unpractical unless Yus passes most of its time at the marina.

Regarding water consumption in my old boat the 300L water with 4 aboard lasted for 4 days and that included a careful use of water. Sure we had two women aboard and you know how are women with washing but that does not include proper showers for all. In fact that includes only taking the salt out of the body on the transom.

160L of water tankage is really very little as water autonomy for living aboard especially if you intend to have occasional guests.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

yus said:


> Hello Paulo,
> I think the Azuree is more strong and safe than the Oceanis 37.


Hum! I don't know why you say that. The Azuree has a more hi-tech building but that is needed for a lighter boat (cored boat). The Beneteaus have a solid monolithic construction and I never heard nothing about the 37 not being solid. About safety why do you say that? Normally bigger boats are more seaworthy than smaller boats and I don't see anything that makes the Azuree different from the Oceanis 37 in that regard.



yus said:


> About the poor water storage capacity I think it should not be a big problem because I intend to use a water mater.
> My biggest problem concerns the living space in the galley and cabins, but your reply satisfies me.
> Could you make a comparison between RM 1050 and the Azuree 33?
> Mainly based on safety and internal space.
> Regards,
> Yus


About the use of the watermaker as main supply of water as a permanent set up for living aboard see what I said on the last post.

Regarding the RM 1050 and the Azuree 33 the RM is a boat much more addapted for extensive long range cruising (it was designed for that) and therefore much more adapted for living aboard. The only set back is that the front cabin does not have a door and can only be closed with a curtain. All the rest is better, including storage space, galley and tankage.

Just look at the difference in what regards water tankage: 720L to 160

RM 1050 - Yes chantier naval, spécialiste du bateau de voyage

Regarding safety this boat has a much bigger ballast/disp. ratio compared with both the Oceanis and the Azuree. It is a stiff boat with many transatlantic crossings and a safe bluewater boat. The possibility of a cutter rig (that some have) increases also that bluewater character and makes it an easier boat to sail with bad weather.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Yus,

I would have to agree with Paulo, ASSUMING you are living aboard ALL the time, in a marina, at anchor etc. If in a marina a lot, adding water to the tanks via hose is not bad, but at anchor?!?!?! Not sure I would want to "depend" if you will on a water maker per say. 

BUT, with this in mind, if you are going to buy the boat new, it has 160L of water in one tank, it could be worth asking if there is a locker where another 100-200L of water could go. Like maybe in the front V berth area. Fill when guests are on board and anchor sailing/cruising, but when marina cruising etc, leave empty. 

Some of the larger Jeanneau's and would assume other brands have this option. A possible option and way to get some more water. 

Fuel on the other hand, Paulo did not say, nor do I know the capacity off the top of my head of the Auzuree. I have a 7 gal, or about 25L tank in my 85 Jeanneau. For where I am, barely enough fuel. 15-20gals, or about 80-100L would be better or minimum. I sail in the US in Pugetsound up to the BC area of Canada. While we do not want to, depending upon the wind, tide to deal with, we motor more than many of us want to. Otherwise, you could be going against a 4-6 knot current. So where I might prefer to sail in less than say 5-7 knots of wind, with only a 5-7 hr window, tacking against the wind, then a really adverse current, one motors, or motor sails per say. If I was on a coast of Europe, NA or equal or in the med away from the entrance which I understand can get some current, then I could see a bit less fuel. Just saying, where you sail etc, fuel might be more of a concern than Paulo seems to be implying. 

Marty


----------



## PCP

The Azuree 33 has a diesel 96L tank , the Elan 350 75L, the Rm 1050 130L, the Oceanis 37 130 and the new jeanneau 130L. Again the RM comes with the bigger tank for its syze: better authonomy.

I have asked to the guys of Elan if they could add a 100L water tank on the bow of the 350 to do exactly what Marty is saying and no way!

Perhaps the guys from Azuree are more acomodating but I guess that it is dificult to have space for an extra tank in small boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

New boat

Dragonfly 32. I love and hate Dragonfly boats I Love the boats and I hate the price . The boats are awesome, very well built, solid and with a very good quality interior with a smart design. About the price, better not to talk about it...I guess that there are some lucky bastards that can get them

They say about this one:

The floats are designed even bigger - compared to our previous design - which makes the boat more powerful and fast. *It will undoubtedly be the fastest boat in our fleet*.

Jesus, faster than this one?:

YouTube - Dragonfly Trimarans by Quorning Boats of Denmark

They also say:

*The Dragonfly 32 offers fun and safe family sailing - and, has potential for serious racing and safe fast sailing at the same time.
.....
Like the other Dragonfly models, the new Dragonfly 32 will appear in two versions - one with a shorter rig and one in a more powerful version with a taller rig. The Dragonfly 32 will be offered standard with a 20 Hp outboard - optional is a 2-cylinder inboard diesel or electric drive. As standard, the boat is equipped with a tiller, but the cockpit has been designed and developed for wheel steering as well.

The boat will offer full standing headroom of 1.95 m in the main cabin - 1.87m in the toilet section.*























































By the way if someone down there is thinking in having one, there is a 2008 35ft on the Virgin Islands at a very interesting price. If you think it is expensive it is because you don't know how much cost a new one

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com

Regards

Paulo


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## nemier

I LOVE that boat Paulo!
Thanks for posting.


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## yus

PCP said:


> The Azuree 33 has a diesel 96L tank , the Elan 350 75L, the Rm 1050 130L, the Oceanis 37 130 and the new jeanneau 130L. Again the RM comes with the bigger tank for its syze: better authonomy.
> 
> I have asked to the guys of Elan if they could add a 100L water tank on the bow of the 350 to do exactly what Marty is saying and no way!
> 
> Perhaps the guys from Azuree are more acomodating but I guess that it is dificult to have space for an extra tank in small boats.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hello Paulo, I think it is possible to put a soft water tank in the hanging locker of the Azuree 33. Anyway I will make a test of the boat around the end of May. 
Yus


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## PCP

yus said:


> Hello Paulo, I think it is possible to put a soft water tank in the hanging locker of the Azuree 33. Anyway I will make a test of the boat around the end of May.
> Yus


Yus, you can put a soft water tank anywhere but a hanging locker?

Keep us posted and if you can test sail also this one:

Photo boat ref. 20598

Probably they will take the price a bit down, if it is not sold first

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

My boat has a soft tank, but it is in a locker under a seat in the saloon. Many different sizes are made by Plastimo. This would be a good option. Then again, not personally knowing the floor plan, the hanging locker might be a good place for plumbing routing etc......can not rule out the ease of plumbing etc in the equation too.

Marty


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## yus

PCP said:


> Yus, you can put a soft water tank anywhere but a hanging locker?
> 
> Keep us posted and if you can test sail also this one:
> 
> Photo boat ref. 20598
> 
> Probably they will take the price a bit down, if it is not sold first
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo,

my budget is limited up to 120.000 euros maximum. I don't think they will sell a RM 1050 for that price. At least I will propose my offer.
To be honest I like better the Azuree 33 than other boats at the moment.
Let's see what I will feel after the test.

Bye


----------



## PCP

I like the Azuree 33 and I have no doubt that it would be more fun and faster, but for living aboard the RM seems better to me and I am sure that after the Baba you will find it a very fast boat .

They are very hard to get on second hand. They have made more than a hundred boats and all you can find is one boat on the used market and at a high price.

I have found this one but only in one add. I don't know if it is already sold. It seems to be at a good price and probably you can get always some cut but it is on the Canary Islands. That should not be a problem and you would take the opportunity to know the place and Madeira on the way back .

RM 1050 - Voilier occasion - FORA MARINE

Consider also that if you buy a new boat you will lose in the first 2 years (on most boats) about 35% of the boat value while if you buy a good used boat the loss will be small. Meaning that if the Azuree 33 tuns not to be the boat you really want to live aboard, you will lose a lot of money when you sell it.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi everyone,
I visited the Wauquiez factory today to have a look at the Opium 39 - a sexy boat...

They have two available, one with 29 hp engine and one with 40 hp (Yanmars). I know it has been said in tests that it is slow under engine, at the same time Yacht had it at 5,5 knots at 2300 rpm which to me, and also as the german dealer was told by flex-o-fold, indicates a too small propeller rather than to small engine.

Any other tests that you know of saying the same about speed under engine?

regards,
Anders


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## PCP

Hey Anders,

I think it has to do with the type of the hull. Those boats were not made to go with engine. I have tried the one with 40hp and I don't think it will go much faster with the bigger engine, except in bad weather. you can feel they drag a lot of water. Funny how it looks the opposite when you pull the sails up.

All the tests I saw also show a slow cruising speed under engine.

I have tried also the RM 1200, same kind of hull, same problem. Also slow under engine. My old Bavaria would out perform both by 1K while on engine. Now in what regards sailing, that's another story 

I have said it already here, one of the disadvantages of these kind of boats is the speed under engine. If compared with a Salona 41, it will make a huge difference, about 2K on the cruising speed.

Tell me more. Do you have liked the interior? What about global quality? Do you had a look at the Opium 39 that I had pointed to you, the one with the modified running rigging?

Tell me more 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
Thank you for your input, kind of confirms my thoughts. 

Basically I like the interior layout a lot, I am not so tall and in this boat I can see out thru the cabin top windows. Hull windows a nice feature but they could be bigger. What I do not like is the rather old looking use of teak for the interior, I like the RM look much more. But I can live with this also.

Otherwise a very good quality impression. I saw a boat in early stage of build too. 

This boat ticks most of my boxes, especially beeing just the right size and with those test backing it up I am very temtped to sign a deal. It is though rather expensive compared with the benbavjeanneaus, as you already know, but not so compared to Najad, x-yacht etc. And standard equipment comprehensive and deck gear much bigger sizes and top end versions compared with the above mentioned cheaper alternatives. And basically there is not a single identical competitior on the market in this size.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

Paulo, regarding the rigging I will have the main sheet direct from the track so no winches for that, the main is not that big.

I have been discussing the genua winches and if they are to be moved back but if you anyway need tongo to autopilot to winch, as you usually have to I can as well go that extra distance forward.

Regars,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi Paulo,
> Thank you for your input, kind of confirms my thoughts.
> 
> Basically I like the interior layout a lot, I am not so tall and in this boat I can see out thru the cabin top windows. Hull windows a nice feature but they could be bigger. What I do not like is the rather old looking use of teak for the interior, I like the RM look much more. But I can live with this also.
> 
> Otherwise a very good quality impression. I saw a boat in early stage of build too.


Anders,

I was curious to hear your opinion to see if it matched mine. Yes, we see things through the same eyes: very simple, very well designed and with good quality all around (and I have been on a finished boat).



JAndersB said:


> This boat ticks most of my boxes, especially beeing just the right size and with those test backing it up I am very temtped to sign a deal. It is though rather expensive compared with the benbavjeanneaus, as you already know, but not so compared to Najad, x-yacht etc. And standard equipment comprehensive and deck gear much bigger sizes and top end versions compared with the above mentioned cheaper alternatives. And basically there is not a single identical competitior on the market in this size.


I don't find the boat expensive. The price is much less than x-yacht, Luffe, Arcona, Grand-Soleil, Comet or Finngulf and just a bit over Dufour 40e. If you have to compare it it would be with the RM 1200 that should cost slightly less but the hardware quality is miles away.

I think you can have on that boat at least a 10% discount, probably a bit more.



JAndersB said:


> Paulo, regarding the rigging I will have the main sheet direct from the track so no winches for that, the main is not that big.


That was what I was talking about and the boat I have mentioned is rigged that way. The standard Opium 39 rigging comes with German sheeting and that does not make sense with only a winch on the side.

I believe you really should test sail the boat. I believe that your doubts would be taken away. Even my wife got impressed with the boat speed and normally she don't care or look at that.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

New Salona 41 boat test on the Spanish magazine Yate:

The test was made with *11/12K wind* and the measured speeds were (without spinnaker or geenaker):

*45ºTW - 8K -----90ºTW - 8.4------ 140ºTW - 6.5
* Under engine: cruising speed *7.5K at 2500RPM*

They have as title: *POWERFUL AND WELL BALANCED*

and as *CONCLUSION*:

*"The Salona 41 inherits the hull and the pedigree from the 42 that has showed its qualities and potential in races through all Europe (IRC and ORC), particularly on the German championship, on the ORC World Championship and in the Med races, including the King's cup.

This dooes not mean that the Salona 41 is strictly a fast race boat designed only for racing, but a very fast cruiser with enough sailing potential to give satisfaction to the ones that like to go ahead of the pack and with enough comfort to pass not only week wends aboard but long holidays with family or friends.

Definitively a fast and agile boat that is not very demanding in what regards maneuvering with a running rigging studied to be easily operated by two or three sailors but, but also a boat that can deliver if the the skipper wants to exploit its full potential."*


----------



## Aac

Havent seen B-yachts mentioned B-YACHTS its an interesting boat that I woud have if I were a billionaire









The 42fter has a displacement of 5600Kg and like the Pogo it has non-overlapping sails and is very modern looking.

Unlike the Pogo however it has a large ballast 3000kg and a narrow beam of 3.1m. Cant find the Gz cuve but I bet its impressive.

The best part is the insides which is the ultimate in simplicity and style to boot.


----------



## PCP

Hello. welcome to the thread .

I was a bit surprised with B yachts....I didn't know of what you are talking about till I open the link. They used to be called Brenta yachts, not B yachts

Yes certainly they deserve to be on this thread. Probably I "forgot" because I am pissed by beautiful things that are way too expensive for me to have



















They are designed by Luca Brenta and here on its Designer's page we can see some more:

______LBYD

The Brenta 42 has a very different program if compared with the Pogo 12.50. The B 42 is basically a luxury day sailor, a fast and enjoyable one but with a limited cruising capacity. It can have a family for a week-end but has not the potential for long cruises (I am not refering to the stability or seaworthiness but to the limited tankage, galley and storage space). The Pogo is just the opposite. Well, we can use it as a day sailor boat but he was not designed for that but for long range cruising.

I had already posted some photos of a similar boat, the Tofinou 12. I really don't know whom I like the most, but perhaps the Tofinou has that bit of classical style that make it even more beautiful to my eyes.

Regards

Paulo


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## G1000

Paulo, I guess you have missed Sly 42 (European Yacht of the Year 2008)  Amazing boat with 111 sqm sail area.


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Paulo, I guess you have missed Sly 42 (European Yacht of the Year 2008)  Amazing boat with 111 sqm sail area.


Yes, it is an interesting boat and I know about it but I have been posting more about new boats even if I have posted about some older ones. Yes it is a very clean design even if the price makes it out of reach for most. I have to confess that I love the looks and the outside but I don't really like the inside. To aseptic and clean for me.

Thanks for posting.

Some movies:

http://www.sly-yachts.com/_vti_g2_video42_aspx_rpstry_12_.sphtml

YouTube - Sly 42 - La Prova in Mare di SoloVela

YouTube - Sly 42 - Il video degli Interni di SoloVela

and several boat tests, one of them a good one in English (Yachtingworld)

http://www.sly-yachts.com/_vti_g2_pr42_aspx_rpstry_51_.sphtml

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 379 Sydney World Premiere.

A link to where the new SO379 will be shown, down under in TD land! Hopefully he will get to the sydney show and tell us ALL about the new Jeanneau 379!

Included in the article are some actual shots of the boat.

Marty


----------



## yus

Hello friends,
waiting for the test of the Azuree 33 I'm looking around for some good market proposal. I need a boat suitable for living aboard. I know the Azuree could seem not to be the right choice, but it is an other question. As I told you I have limited budget and I like very simple boat to be customized by myself. I have found the Varianta 44 which seems to be a very nice boat for my scope. I have read all the articles posted here (page n. 60). Do you have some more news or opinion to release today? Do you know how it is built the hull and the deck? I mean it is cored or solid?
Many thanks.
yus


----------



## PCP

Regarding the Salona 38 and has it will not be a completely new boat but a new interior and a modified transom but using the 37 hull, let me repost what I have said about the 37, pictures included:



PCP said:


> On post 399 I have said that I am waiting with great expectation the announcement of the new Salona 38 and that, if the boat is up to what I expect , it is possible that my search to the boat that fits me and my budget would come to an end .
> 
> The boat is coming to substitute the 37, that is already a very beautiful and fast boat. My respect for that boat and its performance was recently enhanced when I had a look at the results of the 2010 World ORCI Championship, that was raced in September.
> 
> The 37 that was racing there was not, contrary many other boats, a disguised racing boat posing as a cruiser racer. No, this one was a true cruiser racer that even had mounted a webasto heating system.
> 
> The boat finished overall in 3th place on its division, but not being a racer, what interested me was not the boat performance around the cans and in compensated time, but the boat performance on the offshore races and in real time (the championship was composed by 9 races, 7 inshore and two offshore).
> 
> On the shorter offshore race, raced with 30k winds, gusting 40, the Salona 37 finished first on real time with 5. 59.41 (2nd on compensated), beating a sharp and fast Dehler 39 (6.22.11) and a X 421 (6.16.15).
> 
> http://www.fsc.de/fileadmin/Regatta...RCi_Worlds_2010_-_Results_-_Beta_-_Race_3.pdf
> 
> On the longer offshore race, raced with "breezi offshore conditions", the Salona 37 finished first in real time (again): with 8.26.25 and (again) second in compensated time. The third boat in real time was the Dehler 39 with 8.46.28 (3rd on compensated ) and the Dufour 40 special finished fourth in real time with 8.47.44 (5th on compensated time).
> 
> http://www.fsc.de/fileadmin/Regatta...RCi_Worlds_2010_-_Results_-_Beta_-_Race_4.pdf
> 
> I have told you before, the Salona 37 is a fast boat&#8230;and I hope, the new 38 would be a faster one.


I have only two images of the new boat and they are small:



















The boat comes with a much more modern look, it has port hulls not only on the saloon but also on the cabins and it really is a shame that they have not used a new hull. They say and with a certain reason that the boat is a winner of many races and is still winning so they see no reason to modify it.

Well, it makes some sense but for most of the buyers the "look" is as important as efficiency and what looks sharp today are boats with the beam brought more aft. The advantage for racing with a crew may be inexistent but that type of hull takes nothing on the speed potential upwind (if the beam is the same) and adds an easier downwind ride and that is specially important for cruising when short crews or solo sailing are the rule.

Let's see that comparison between those two 38 footers, the Jeanneau and the Salona (metric system- m, kg, L, m2):

LOA: 11.24 - 11.50
LWL: 10.35 -10.15
Beam: 3.76 - 3.62
STD Draft: 1.95 - 2.00
STD Ballast: 1870 - 2270
Weight: 6280 - 6300
Ballast/Displ. : 30% - 36%
STD Sail Area : Genoa 35.0, Main 36.0 - Genoa 42.9 - Main 45.0
Tankage: Water 206+130 Fuel 130 - water 180+90 Fuel 100
Engine : 29hp - 29 hp
Fridge : 180 - 80+50

Main differences:

The Salona is a bit longer but has a smaller LWL. That revels the Jeanneau more recent hull.

The tankage, including fridge, showing always a small difference towards Jeanneau.

The Ballast, showing a considerable difference towards Salona. As the boats weight about the same that is also a considerable difference towards Salona in what regards Ballast/Displ. ratio (30% to 36%).

The Sail Area reveals a considerable difference towards Salona (+ 37%) and that is in consonance with the superior B/D ratio.

Finally, the Salona has a smaller beam and probably also finner entries.

All this will make the Jeanneau a boat with a slightly better cruising autonomy and the Salona a considerable stiffer, faster and more seaworthy boat.

The performance of both boats can be improved with performance packages, but while the one from Jeanneau points to a bigger sail area (and that will make the boat less stiffer) the one from Salona points to a lighter boat and that will provide a even more stiffer and powerfull boat.

They say that the deep draft Jeanneau keel has 2.00 and I don't know if they are going to have a performance keel with 2.15 or 2.20 but even those keels are on jeanneau steel keels. On the Salona their optional 2.28 bulbed keel is a lead one and that will make a big difference in the saved weight. Also the Salona has an option for a vacum infused epoxy resin for hull and deck and that will provide a much lighter and stronger hull.

Between the keel and the epoxy hull and deck the difference in weight between the two boats will be considerable, something between 400 and 800kg.

The Salona running rigging is of better quality and it comes standard with 6 winches (2 on each side two on the cabin top) and a German mainsheet system. The Jeanneau will also come with the German mainsheet system but only with 4 winches, one on each side and that is a lot less practical because you have to change lines all the time (same winch for mainsail and genoa).

The Salona has a traveler on the cockpit near the wheel and that has advantages in what regards sailing but disadvantages in what regards cockpit comfort (Size of Bimini and a more free cockpit). The Salona has also an option to have the traveler mounted on top of the cabin. The Jeanneau has the traveler on the top of the cabin and no option to mounting it near the wheel.

The Salona uses a stainless steel structure on the bottom of the boat (and that also increases stability) where the keel and the shrouds are connected. This permits to take the efforts from particular points of the hull and redistribute them for all the hull. The boat will be stronger this way.

Interior: I cannot comment on any of these boats, but assuming that previous characteristics are maintained both boats will look good (even if for that you have to pay more 4200€ for a teak interior on the Salona) and will have a good interior design . The one from Jeanneau will be more "glossy" but the one from the Salona will be of better quality. The Salona as also an interior in light material (8200€) for the ones that want to race the boat.

Prices:

The Jeanneau will be less expensive than the Salona but the difference will not be probably big in the Standard version.

I did not hear nothing about the Jeanneau price (Marty?) and the still not definitive Salona price will be 114 145.50€

An introductory sail away price including sails, Lazy bag and lazy jack electronic (with VHF, plotter and autopilot), water heater, coat barrier, anti-fouling, folding propeller and even mooring ropes, costs 129 500€. With more 8 708.80€ you will have a fast and very good and well equipped cruising boat with webasto heating system, teak on cockpit, Anchor, chain and windlass, Spraywood, cleats on the middle and last but not least, a top mast sliding system with "torlon" balls.

I would say that for the ones that really want to go fast, the performance package is well deserving the price: 20 233 €. This includes a deep lead keel (less weight) an epoxy vacuum infused hull and deck (less weight) a performance mast, performance deck hardware including a carbon spy pole and dyneema sheets everywhere.

This will make it a lot more expensive than the Standard Jeanneau but if you opt by a performance kit on the jeanneau, the jeanneau will also be a lot more expensive but not as effective in its mods: The Jeanneau will be increasing the size of its mast and the size of its sails without increasing the stability for carrying more sail. The salona will maintain its sail area and will increase its stability (less weight) becoming a more powerful and seaworthy boat. But make np mistake, I am not saying that the Jeanneau is a bad boat, quite the opposite, it seems to me that it has the potential to be a top contender in its category.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

As of yet, very little info on the 379. The pics are probably hull 1 for all I know. No pricing as of yet. The reality is, even tho the rumour it is not, but this is probably a soon to be replace ment for the 36i but going back to a 37' boat. But as noted, this is a powerful boat. 

Also, You have a typo in the comparisons, I co not believe the salona has a draft of 10M

Marty


----------



## tdw

Certainly the Salonas look the goods.


----------



## PCP

yus said:


> Hello friends,
> waiting for the test of the Azuree 33 I'm looking around for some good market proposal. I need a boat suitable for living aboard. I know the Azuree could seem not to be the right choice, but it is an other question. As I told you I have limited budget and I like very simple boat to be customized by myself. I have found the Varianta 44 which seems to be a very nice boat for my scope. I have read all the articles posted here (page n. 60). Do you have some more news or opinion to release today? Do you know how it is built the hull and the deck? I mean it is cored or solid?
> Many thanks.
> yus


Yus,

The Varianta would be interesting for living aboard if a minimum of thought or options were possible to do that, but the boat does not even as an anchor locker. See how they propose you anchor the boat:

*How can I anchor the Varianta 44? 
Simply lead an anchor and lead line through the divided pulpit into the water, run the lead line over a snatch block back to a winch. *

For this one I strongly recomend a Fortress aluminum anchor 

The boat has not also a true freezer nor a front sail furler.

You have to spend probably not 100 000€ but 120 000 perhaps a bit more to have a minimum of cruising capacity (and no anchor locker and that for me is the worse not to mention that the only outside locker opens directly to a cabin). The boat has almost no option list

The boat is nice and solid but was made for club regattas or for chartering, for those kind of guys that always sleep at the marina and anchor only for a sun bath and a swim.

Here yo have sail tests. You will find out more about the boat and will see what I mean.

Varianta Segelyachten - from Dehler with love

It is a nice boat:

Varianta Segelyachten - from Dehler with love

but not adapted for cruising and it's big, you would pay a lot of money at the marina and to do the annual anti-fouling.

If I wanted to buy new and for that price I would buy an Oceanis 37 (not a typical Benetau boat). I have posted about it on this thread. If I would choose between second hand boats I would choose probably a Jeanneau 42I or a Dufour 40.

I would recommend this one to you (I have seen the boat):

dufour 40 | Veleiros de ocasiÃ£o 95320

The boat is at an incredible price because the guy is going away to work in Cabo Verde.

It is a professional (not a seller) he works with Dredgers (he has several) and the boat is in pristine condition in what regards mechanics (he worries a lot about that), not so well in what regards the interior (for a 2007 boat), obviously he don't care much about that ) but it is certainly a much better option than the Varianta. It is a fast and seaworthy boat with lots of storage and interior space and very well equipped for cruising.

As a bonus he can give you his place at the Marina de Olhão, in a very nice place in the South of Portugal almost for nothing (he helped to built the Marina). If I remember correctly the annual rent was something like 1000€ a year.

Marina de olhão - Pesquisa do Google

But if you are interested be quick because I know that are several guys trying to buy it but don't have all the money to give and want more time to pay.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Linjett 40 I doubt has been mentioned before.

It is another of the small Swedish yards, from near Stockholm. A slightly more conservative version of Arcona.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Linjett 40 I doubt has been mentioned before.
> 
> It is another of the small Swedish yards, from near Stockholm. A slightly more conservative version of Arcona.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Hei Anders,

No the Linjett 40 was not mentioned here and I don't know if I find it very interesting. It is certainly well built and expensive but a lot less modern than Arcona or Maxy yachts. It looks like an Arcona from the 90's.

Welcome - Linjett

Now, these boats are a lot more interesting . Don't you want to give it a try?

YouTube - Sailing - R36 training- Gothenburg - Sweden

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Paulo, I guess you have missed Sly 42 (European Yacht of the Year 2008)  Amazing boat with 111 sqm sail area.





Aac said:


> Havent seen B-yachts mentioned B-YACHTS its an interesting boat that I woud have if I were a billionaire


 I guess G1000 is right, the Sly 42 deserves more space. After all is expensive but not more expensive than x yachts or other North European Brands and it represents a more modern outlook. I still don't like the interior and pisses me such a beautiful boat with such a vulgar interior but I guess that could be personal. Just does not work for me

Take a look at the boat weight and at the sail area. This boat is a fast customer and also a slick one:




































































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> Now, these boats are a lot more interesting . Don't you want to give it a try?


1) Finn Flyer 36
2) Salona 37
3) J/109
4) (T-34)


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> You even got that mysterious light blue and white boat, the T-34. Are you Italian?


 You don't need to be Italian to be capable to use Google then you know sail number  Check this photo stream Flickr: blursailing's Photostream  Starting from page 14 you will find pics from this video.


PCP said:


> You let go the blue one but that's unfair, we can only see it on the start and then she moves away because it is bigger and faster. We can see it crossing behind the T34 in second plan but only once. It is a Luffe 40.04.


Oh now I see SWE 4004 on mainsail and it's Josephine Luffe 40.04. Strange at 0:20 it's genoa number SW 30.


----------



## JAndersB

T-34.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## daviid

*Boat Design And Stability*

Hi Folks

I have been trying to get my head around boat safety for some time now. More specifically this includes a study of the particular boats stability curve and obtaining the STIX rating. This has not been an easy task to be honest. Manufacturers have asked me to contact the dealer who has asked me to contact the maufacturer and so we go. When I have managed to get some numbers, they have not been the same as those I have found from various boat reports including the ones published by Practical Boat Owner and Yachting Monthly. I am also aware that there seems to be no universal standard for determining the stability curve as far as the manufacturers go; they seem to rely on a computer program which in turn is reliant on a whole host of different variables for each manufacturer. The net result is that making comparison of each boats stability characteristices and in particular their published AVS is pretty pointless unless there is a standard for determining how these numbers need to be determined. I am also aware the the ORC determine their own AVS on account of these defficiencies by subjecting each boat to an incline test and then running their own computer program. Even if there test isn't better, at least this way each boat can be compared which brings me to my 2 questions:

1. An AVS of 118 seems to be the magic number certainly if one wants to do the Sydney to Hobart race. Whose AVS is this, the boat maufacturers or the ORC? If this is the right number, then this would exclude the X38c, the Salona 37 and the Dufour 40e but would include the Beneteau Oceanis 37 and the Jeanneau 36i. mmmm, I don't think so ... What is the right number? Comments?

2. If there is no way of getting meaningful numbers that are measured in a similar way for the stability curve and for the AVS, then what boat design characteritics are necessary to ensure that a particlar boat is safe? L/B, B/D , the area below the x-axis on the stability curve spring to mind. What else should be considered?

Sometimes it feels like the proverbial never ending rabbit hole when it comes to assessing stability and therefore safety.

David


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Hi Folks
> 
> I have been trying to get my head around boat safety for some time now. More specifically this includes a study of the particular boats stability curve and obtaining the STIX rating. This has not been an easy task to be honest. Manufacturers have asked me to contact the dealer who has asked me to contact the maufacturer and so we go. When I have managed to get some numbers, they have not been the same as those I have found from various boat reports including the ones published by Practical Boat Owner and Yachting Monthly.* I am also aware that there seems to be no universal standard for determining the stability curve as far as the manufacturers go; they seem to rely on a computer program which in turn is reliant on a whole host of different variables for each manufacturer. The net result is that making comparison of each boats stability characteristices and in particular their published AVS is pretty pointless unless there is a standard for determining how these numbers need to be determined. I am also aware the the ORC determine their own AVS on account of these defficiencies by subjecting each boat to an incline test and then running their own computer program.* Even if there test isn't better, at least this way each boat can be compared which brings me to my 2 questions:
> 
> 1. An AVS of 118 seems to be the magic number certainly if one wants to do the Sydney to Hobart race. Whose AVS is this, the boat maufacturers or the ORC? If this is the right number, then this would exclude the X38c, the Salona 37 and the Dufour 40e but would include the Beneteau Oceanis 37 and the Jeanneau 36i. mmmm, I don't think so ... What is the right number? Comments?
> 
> 2. If there is no way of getting meaningful numbers that are measured in a similar way for the stability curve and for the AVS, then what boat design characteritics are necessary to ensure that a particlar boat is safe? L/B, B/D , the area below the x-axis on the stability curve spring to mind. What else should be considered?
> 
> Sometimes it feels like the proverbial never ending rabbit hole when it comes to assessing stability and therefore safety.
> 
> David


You are absolutely correct and I never brought it here because it is really a dirty and complex business and I don't want to discuss it on this thread because it goes away from its subject. You can open a thread about it but I really think it is a too technical and polemic subject to be discussed on an open forum.

But I can give you my opinion about it:

The stability curves are made by the designers and as you say they are made using different programs and probably even different parameters. The only one that is equal for all is the one for ORC, that is also the only one based in real inclining experiments, and therefore the only one that provides comparable results. But as you know not all boats race in ORC so you cannot have those stability curves for all boats.

The ones you have for all boats are the ones used to certify the boats and these ones are clearly not comparable. Some show results that are very close to the ones from the ORC curves others results that are much better.

You don't know also if the curves that are used by most designers (and that give better results than the ORC stability curves) are closer to reality than ORC curves.

Also you have to know that there are two stability curves, one with minimum load another with maximum load. With maximum load you will have a bigger stability but a lower AVS. They used to certify the boats only the minimum load curve, than the two and now I think just a mix of the two (it is not the curves that are used but the data taken from the curves).

I completely disregard STIX number. It would give me a lot of trouble to explain why but I would say that I consider that some factors that have importance on its determination don't make sense. For instance the sail area is a factor that diminish STIX. If I am in bad weather if I have a third reef and a stay sail I would be in much better shape than another boat that has an overall smaller sail area but (as most) has only a second reef (with more area than the third reef from the other boat) and a furled genoa. The sail area counts big time for the Stix number.

If I don't have ORC stability curves to compare, between two boats with similar hull characteristics, similarly sized cabins, with similar draft and similar bulbed keels I assume the one with more Ballast/weight ratio would be the one with a better stability curve and a better AVS.

Regarding boats with different hull shapes, a many year's interest for the subject and after analyzing hundreds of different stability curves I have a pretty good idea of the differences in stability curves between different types of hulls, to give me an approximated idea how a beamy hull can compare with a narrow hull.

The issue is so polemic that my favorite magazine, the German "Yacht" that I believe it was the first to publish stability curves, stop publishing them five or six year's ago. I still like to see the stability curves provided by the designer on the British magazines but I really think they should warn the readers about what is going on. They also publish the curves and after completely disregard the provided data on the boat tests, or confound GZ curves with RM curves. I have already call their attention to the subject and posted on their forum about it with no avail. I guess it is a too hot subject .

Regarding stability is convenient not to forget that we are only talking about static stability and it has been shown that dynamic stability is a more important factor to seaworthiness than static stability. I have my opinion about the subject (I will not discuss it here) but experience shows for instance that a boat like the OVNI 435, one of the boats more extensively used offshore and made in large numbers has a lousy static stability curve and an unblemished seaworthiness record and that the mini ocean racers that have a very small RM curve (because they are very small and light) have an impressive safety record taking into account the number of transats and even a circumnavigation.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

As promised, let's talk about the T 34, a beautiful Italian boat and for such an exotic boat not a very expensive on. They advertise it at 125 000 € a bit more than what costs a Salona 37 that has a better cruising interior, is bigger and faster in light winds, but both polar curves are very similar and this one is only a 34ft.

The boat had won the 2011 prize for boat of the year for the main Slovenian sailing magazine and it is convenient not to forger that Slovenia is the home of Elan.

It weights only 3700kg, has 67m2 of sail area and can carry a 100m2 asymmetric spynacker . It has to be fast and it's certainly beautiful with a great cruising interior for a boat that is also a racing boat. A very interesting one no doubt. Comments please?


















































































Here you have a movie from the Rolex middle sea race (a major race) where the boat won first place on the two crewed division. The movie only began at 3.15 (photos first) and I cannot understand why they are sailing downwind under main alone???. Perhaps they didn't have a spinnacker for medium to strong wind? With a spinnaker and main it seems to me that the boat would be much more balanced...and much more fast.

YouTube - Rolex/T-Yachts .wmv

T-Yachts :: Welcome to our website


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> T-34.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Did't saw your post. Off course, you are right

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

More news and some drawings on a very interesting boat, a modern boat made by a very conservator shipyard, or at least, it was. Times are changing

The new Maxi 11.0:

*" You are a demanding bugger, at least when it comes to sailing. You enjoy the speed, and to fly on the downwind at double digit pace. Most of all, you get pleasure from passing the other yachts being the first to reach your destination. But once you're there, waiting for the others, you want to lead a life in comfort.

Thirty-seven feet is enough to get standing headroom, nice saloon, a twin sink galley, spacious heads and shower compartment and quarters for 4 + 2 people.

Then the new Maxi 11 is a perfect fit. She is super fast, easy to handle - and even though you can sense her affinity to the Volvo Ocean Race Monsters she is surprisingly comfortable below deck.

The Iconic Maxi 11 will be designed with a set up for short-handed, or even single handed manoeuvring. A well thought out on-deck concept will give you the advantage of sailing almost as fast with a two crew, as with a full crew of four.

The masthead hoisted Code 0 Gennaker and bow with extendable carbon fibre bowsprit will give you sensational beam reach and downwind sailing characteristics. In addition you will get easier use, faster hoisting and more frequent gennaker sailing.

This state of the art 37 feet sailing yacht will have the same functions and performance as a larger yacht, yet it will be easier to handle.

..the new Maxi11 is engineered to push the boundaries of modern design and utilise the latest building practices to create an aggressive high performance sailing yacht that is technically consistent, ...an evolution hardly seen before in high performance sport yachts.
...

This state of the art 37 feet yacht will have a longer waterline inspired by the best solutions from racing yachts. With stiffer and stronger advanced composites hull, wider stern, pointier bow, and extended bowsprit with maximized sail areas to match, the Maxi11 will deliver exceptional upwind performance in all conditions with exciting double digit speed downwind and reaching.

The sharper bow and single rudder design enables more enjoyable upwind tacking.

In short, people will stare and heads will turn when they get a short glimpse as you catch up along side and then swiftly leave them behind while you manoeuvre your Maxi 11 at ease with a crew of one or two.

...So if you really enjoy high speed sailing in comfort and don't mind to irritate people, sign up to make history once again.

Nowadays, it's the speed, not the size that counts".*


----------



## nemier

That sure is a sexy boat Paulo!
But now I can't get the thought of Tri's out of my mind since you posted the Dragonfly, & it's all directly your fault!


----------



## PCP

nemier said:


> That sure is a sexy boat Paulo!
> But now I can't get the thought of Tri's out of my mind since you posted the Dragonfly, & it's all directly your fault!


Believe me I have tried hard to find a folding trimaran with a minimum decent interior at a price I could afford. The best alternative is the Corsair 36. But the build quality is far away from the Dragonfly and the interior is...poor and not very nice, to say the least.

I even talked with Farrier about the possibility of building a 39 (I had more money then ) but the guy with experience building them were in Canada and the boat would cost even a bit more than the 36, but that one would be perfect. I think I have posted about it on this thread.

YouTube - Corsair 36 - Newport to Ensenada

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi everybody,
as I have posted I am very close to signing a deal for a new boat. My old boat (Dehler 43 CWS) is now sold and I have both a Wauquiez Opium 39 available and now also found out that I can get an Azuree 40 pretty quickly. RM 1060 not available before end of september. Pogo 1060 and 1250 where both available in september and december (contrary to long waiting times earlier mentioned) but this option was some weeks ago and have taken them from my short list.

Basically I had made up my mind for the Opium but now when the Azuree came up I wonder what to do. 

Opium lighter and has very good test records. Azuree much more luxorius and modern interior design, which of course please others in the family .

Azuree cheaper with rather big margin (cruising version) but also feels slightly bigger than what I really would like to have. 

Test results for Azuree rather good also but the test have been for the lighter version mainly and some remarks have been made that the boat is standing on it nose when heeled (as can be seen on some videos also).

And then we end up in perhaps Croatia in the autumn and have to truck the boat to Sweden, and that is not for free either.

Another interesting question is of course where to pay the VAT for Europe?

Anybody out there that have test sailed the Azuree, or seen it live?

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi everybody,
> as I have posted I am very close to signing a deal for a new boat. My old boat (Dehler 43 CWS) is now sold and I have both a Wauquiez Opium 39 available and now also found out that I can get an Azuree 40 pretty quickly. ....
> 
> Basically I had made up my mind for the Opium but now when the Azuree came up I wonder what to do.
> 
> Opium lighter and has very good test records. Azuree much more luxorius and modern interior design, which of course please others in the family .
> 
> Azuree cheaper with rather big margin (cruising version) but also feels slightly bigger than what I really would like to have.
> 
> Test results for Azuree rather good also but the test have been for the lighter version mainly and some remarks have been made that the boat is standing on it nose when heeled (as can be seen on some videos also).
> ....
> 
> Anybody out there that have test sailed the Azuree, or seen it live?
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Regarding the Azuree I would point out what I have said to someone in a private message (this part was not private ):

"Apparently there is a big dif. in price between the Std, version and the Fast one and a very small dif. in weight and that would worry me. They are not compensating the difference in RM and AVS that the deep lead keel (2.60) provides regarding the 2.16m steel Keel (they normally do that). They add 50kg to the ballast and that's nothing. I bet they would need about 350kg.

*This means that the fast boat is much more stiff and safe than the std boat. If you capsize the std boat I bet you are going to stay capsized for a long time. On limit situations the Fast boat will recover much more quickly (and the std can have even difficulty in recovering from a knock down with the weight of sails and a radar dome).*

Ask them the two stability curves for the two boats and you will going to see that the STD one has a bad AVS and a much bigger inverted stability. I would like to have a look.

Regarding the boat it is possible that 50% of that difference in price comes from the carbon mast.

I would chose the STD boat, with a 2,16 keel but with a lead one and with the weight to make the stability curve the same as the one from the fast boat (more weight on the bulb, probably 300kg more or something like that).

I would also have wanted the fast boat hull material, two more winches, the bigger winches they have as option, genaker equipment and a genaker mounted on a fast furler, dynema lines, webasto weating and an aluminum performance mast."

But of course, I like more the Opium.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
thank you for your thoughts. The Azuree 40 Cruiser has a keel of 2050 kg, Opium 1850. Both with most of the weight in the bulb and similar depth. Both boats same width, Azuree mast slightly higher and main sail 6 sqm bigger, so basically they should be pretty similar in stiffness and AVS. Azuree though much heavier so it will not start planing as fast. 
On the other side a very different inside set up and look.

Both are made in full sandwich and with vinylester. Same engine. Same nav equipment. Opium has deck stepped mast (Sparcraft), Azuree kielstepped Soromap.

What is making the decision so hard is that with same equipment, the Azuree is a lot cheaper (appr. €55000), despite beeing bigger. A trade off between planing minimum wind speed, much (much) more modern interior and lower price. 

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi Paulo,
> thank you for your thoughts. The Azuree 40 Cruiser has a keel of 2050 kg, Opium 1850. Both with most of the weight in the bulb and similar depth. Both boats same width, Azuree mast slightly higher and main sail 6 sqm bigger, so basically they should be pretty similar in stiffness and AVS. Azuree though much heavier so it will not start planing as fast.
> On the other side a very different inside set up and look.
> .....
> Regards,
> Anders


Hei Anders, I don't think you are right in what concerns stability. As i had said I would be concerned about that, regarding the Azuree Standard version. I will explain why:

You say that both boats have a not very different hull, a similar keel and a similar draft with the Opium with a 1850kg ballast and the Azuree with 2050kg and so they would be pretty similar in stifness and AVS. I don't think so.

What matters regarding AVS, reserve stability and also stiffness, all things being equal except the weight of the boat and the weight of the ballast, is the Ballast/Displacement ratio. The Opium 39 has a B/D ratio of 33%, a typical measure among many modern cruiser racers and the Azuree 40 cruiser has a B/D ratio of 28%. This puts it among the Beneteau Oceanis. Even the Dufour cruisers, Bavarias and Hanse have more than that. That is specially bad because the boat has a huge beam and a big form stability and that gives lot's of initial stability but also lot's of inverted stability.

The problem with this boat will not be the stiffness needed to sail (initial stability) but the one at high angles of heel needed to recover from a knock down and at that point the boat will be much less stiffer than the Opium and the AVS will be also lower. If you have the bad luckk to be capsized, this boat will stay inverted much more time than the Opium.

Now take a look at the "Fast" version of Azuree 40. It displaces 7100kg and has a ballast of only 2000kg but in a bulb lower 0.44m than the standard version. Based in what I have seen in other boats that have several drafts and compensate that difference in draft with more weight to have a similar stability curve, I would say that for having a similar stability curve the standard model should have more 350 kg of ballast than the Fast cruiser (it has only more 50kg).

If we assume that I am right and that the Standard boat should have a 2350kg ballast to have the same stability curve as the Fast cruiser (same AVS, same positive and negative stability), that would give to both the standard version and Fast version a B/D of 32%.

I believe that the Azuree fast cruiser and the Opium 39 have a not very different stability curve and similar stiffness but there will be a big difference between the Azuree cruiser (standard boat) and the Opium 39 .

Regarding the Opium 39 and the A fast cruiser, the difference is that the Opium does that with a weight of 5600kg and a 2.13 draft while the Azuree manages that with a 7100 kg and a 2.60 draft and I would say that is a big handicap in what regards cruising.

The stability curve I am talking about is a GZ curve. On a RM curve the bigger weight of the Azuree will give it more stability but no more stiffness because to compensate that extra weight the Azuree will have to carry a lot more sail and needs stability to compensate that.

Bottom point: I would not buy a Azuree cruiser with that final stability. I would ask them to put the needed ballast to have the same reserve stability and AVS as the Fast cruiser version. I don't know if the standard hull is capable of supporting the extra efforts that implies and to make sure I would have also the hull built to the "Fast" specifications.

I would not buy a Fast cruiser because 2.60m of draft is much for my cruising grounds, but it can be okay to you. If that is the case, the Azuree fast cruiser is a true option regarding the Opium 39 even if probably slower and I am only refering to stability, seaworthiness and sailing, not to the interior.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

First photos from the Dehler 41.

It looks sharp and fast. A nice looking boat


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
the question of ballast ratio, AVS and stiffness is a complicated one and need careful calculations of among other things center of gravity. I do not intend to go into that. I have also traditionally been an advocate of high ballast ratios. 

These new boats are bult on form stability as you know, as is a trimaran or a catamaran. They do not score high on ballast ratios either. I already had a boat like that, my Beneteau Oceanis 40. Compared to my last boat, the Dehler 43 CWS the difference could not be bigger. Dehler with 43% B/D and Beneteau clearly under 30%, Beneteau wide stern, Dehler narrow. Same maximum width. 

Still, the Beneteau was funnier to sail and the Dehler heeled as much as the Benetau, partly due to bigger sail area to compensate for the doubled keel weight. The big difference was the tendency to broach, where the Beneteau was wothless and the Dehler almost impossible to get to broach. Speed similar but Dehler could point higher and more tolerant to gusts and waves. 

So how can we get into the wider stern, lighter boat more fun cirkel without broaching. As I have been saying for some years now, through double rudders (unless trimaran/catamaran is to ones taste). No broaching anymore. 

Shure, a knock down might be more fatal but as have been discussed in other threads, we spend 99% of our time in not knock down conditions so... 

So basically, how much is the ballast ratio really worth for these kind of boats or should we look at other aspects, if we are takling about performance, not flipping around? I am not sure but I think we have to reason slightly different than for more normal single rudder narrower shaped performance cruisers.

I am also a little bit pussled that Opium can be so much lighter than all other similar boats with similar interiors. Opium is built very similar to my old Dehler if I compare hull cut outs, even if the Dehler is built without vacuum and basically Opium hull is built as Azuree (balsa instead of pvc sandwich). Pogo is understandable if you look inside but I have a hard time understanding why an Azuree should be 1800 kg (200more in the keel) heavier, you get a lot of interior material for 1800 kg.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## Aac

Anders said:


> I am also a little bit pussled that Opium can be so
> much lighter than all other similar boats with similar
> interiors.


Good point.

By my calculations the Opium minus ballast weights 3800Kg
The Azuree 40 minus ballast weights 5100Kg

Thats a wopping 1300Kg difference in fiberglass and furniture.

Even more puzzling is the Azuree site claims that some of it is carbon fiber:



> Azuree With its hull made of 50% carbon fibre - 50% GRP, which offers the lightest solution without compromising the structural integrity


----------



## JAndersB

Aac said:


> Good point.
> 
> By my calculations the Opium minus ballast weights 3800Kg
> The Azuree 40 minus ballast weights 5100Kg
> 
> Thats a wopping 1300Kg difference in fiberglass and furniture.
> 
> Even more puzzling is the Azuree site claims that some of it is carbon fiber:


There are several different weight numbers floating around for both the Opium and the Azuree. As usual, a boat starts is career as very light weight but when reality catches up the numbers get adjusted. I have seen the numbers for the Opium going up from 4800 to 5000 and now 5600 kg. Similar for the Azuree. Especially the difference between the Azuree fast Cruiser and Cruiser is interesting to observe. It has been getting smaller and smaller and by now it is only 200 kg. I assume the mast is not incuded in these calculations since it is a carbon mast on the Fast Cruiser and an aluminium on the Cruiser.

The Azuree Fast Cruiser is the one built with 50% carbon in the cloth, the Cruiser has only carbon in some areas so basically the weight difference should be bigger.

But still, as you said, the difference is strange. Then, if one starts looking at other boats hull weight, like the RM1200 5100 kg, Dufour 40E etc 5000 kg hull, Grand Soleil 40 5100 kg, Bavaria 40 6100 kg, Beneteau Sense 43 7500 kg it is pretty clear that the Azuree is not light but not heavey neither, it is the Opium that is outstanding for some reason. If, as Opium says, vacuum, sandwich and vinylester is the key, then Azuree should be lighter. And as a planing hull it really should be lighter I agree. But the Elan 350 is not that light either, and also has a B/D of only 26% and still is creating such a smile on all testers face.

Best regards,
Anders


----------



## Aac

I can add that I have a Wauquiez Centurion 40S and its hull (light) minus ballast is supposed to be 4840Kg. It has marine ply for furniture which at a guess would make the boat 2 to 300 Kg lighter if it was light furniture.

The Centurion 40S hull is .55m longer and has more free board than the Opium. This could account for quite a few 100Kg.

If indeed the Opium is as light as quoted then it must be due to less fiberglass and hence not as robust - because as you say they all use basla core and vinylester resin. If I were you I would ask Wauquiez - how come so light compared to the Azuree or Centurion 40S.

As to the robustness of hulls here's a picture of a Centurion 40S keel after hitting rocks (see Material strength and fatigue - Page 2 - Boat Design Forums)









The boat hit rocks at 8 knots, broke mast but did not make water.

Modern boats are tough but they weight a bit.


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi Paulo,
> the question of ballast ratio, AVS and stiffness is a complicated one and need careful calculations of among other things center of gravity. I do not intend to go into that. I have also traditionally been an advocate of high ballast ratios.
> 
> These new boats are bult on form stability as you know, as is a trimaran or a catamaran. They do not score high on ballast ratios either. ....


Anders,

The stiffness is not a difficult issue . You have only to have a stability curve and to know the boat sail area.

I think there is some confusion here regarding high ballast ratios. The reason some modern boats need less ballast ratio is because today the drafts are a bit bigger but mainly because today most performance boats have all the ballast in a bulb on a keel while some years back the ballast was distributed by all the keel, sometimes with a small bulb and that can make a big difference in righting moment.

The Ballast/Displacement is only comparable in what regards similar keels with similar weigh distribution and similar drafts.

What matters is the stability curve. If I remember correctly the one from the Azuree cruiser has an AVS around 110º and the one from the Opium 39 an AVS around 125º. That is a huge difference not only on the AVS but on the force that the boat is making to right itself up from a knock down position and also on the inverted stability.

Some types of new cruising boats have in common with multihulls the fact that they take most of its initial stability (needed to sail) from form stability but contrary to multi-hulls they take the ballast needed to recover from a knock-down or needed to recover from an inverted stability in a short period of time or at least they should have. All the racing boats that served as model to this new generation of boats have that safety potential. The ballast is there not only to increase the stiffness of the boat but mainly for the reserve stability (at high angles of heel).

If you want a boat without or with a bad a reserve stability you should have a multi-hull. At least you would not be tricked into thinking a boat has a safety potential he does not have. Being knocked out on a sailboat, specially for guys that like to push their boats and have a lot of sail out is a fairly common occurrence. It had happened to me already and I bet it had happened to a lot of sailors that like to go fast. It is not a big deal in a boat with a good reserve stability. In a boat with a poor reserve stability it can be a huge problem.

I remember than on the last Transat with Figaros a guy was knock down for a looong time (1 hour?). The Figaro 2 has a good reserve stability (AVS 125/130º) but the boat was caught by a wave and partially flooded and that have diminished its reserve stability. That sailor had a lot of work taking out the water of the boat (not an easy task with a lying boat) till it managed to get enough stability to bring it up again. What would have happened if that boat had a poor reserve stability?

The Elan 350, the Pogo and the RM are boats that rely on form stability for most of the stability needed to sail but that have the ballast and the draft needed for having a good reserve stability and a good AVS. I believe the Azuree fast cruiser has it too, but not the Azuree cruiser. I would not take offshore a boat that would have difficulty from recovering from a knock-down, or at least I would be very careful to sail that boat and that would take all the fun away.



JAndersB said:


> Shure, a knock down might be more fatal but as have been discussed in other threads, we spend 99% of our time in not knock down conditions so...
> 
> So basically, how much is the ballast ratio really worth for these kind of boats or should we look at other aspects, if we are takling about performance, not flipping around? I am not sure but I think we have to reason slightly different than for more normal single rudder narrower shaped performance cruisers.


I remember that on some test with the Elan the guys from the magazine were amazed because they have tested the boat with lot's and wind and no "wipe-outs". They were not caring because they knew that a knock-down would not have been a problem. Who wants a sportive cruising boat where a wipe-out can be a problem? It makes no sense. It is dangerous.

The ballast/draft should be the necessary to provide a decent AVS and a good reserve stability, no matter what. Otherwise what is the advantage of a monohull over a multihull? if you don't want to have a ballast capable of generate a good reserve stability why bother? Get a multihull .



JAndersB said:


> I am also a little bit pussled that Opium can be so much lighter than all other similar boats with similar interiors. Opium is built very similar to my old Dehler if I compare hull cut outs, even if the Dehler is built without vacuum and basically Opium hull is built as Azuree (balsa instead of pvc sandwich). Pogo is understandable if you look inside but I have a hard time understanding why an Azuree should be 1800 kg (200more in the keel) heavier, you get a lot of interior material for 1800 kg.


The interior of the Opium is much lighter than the one from the Azuree and probably of much better quality. Infusion makes a lot of difference in the weight, there are lot's of different qualities in the infusion process.

I don't think the Wauquiez use a balsa core they say: "balsa and PVC foam sandwich with a vinylester core" and they use In the laminate multiaxial fiber glass (equivalent to multiple layers of unidirectional material). The quality of the vinylester resins or fiberglass can be very different and the same with the workmanship quality.

I know that they make the boat with that weight because they have made a big fuss about that when they have weighted the first boat (and got the correct weight). Quality and control is as important as the process to warranty high standards of quality and in that regard Wauquiez has a long tradition while Azuree has yet to prove itself as a high quality brand.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Aac

Paulo; you're making sense. There are a lot of variables - poor quality cores can soak up a lot of resin etc... Unless you are a boat builder one has to put trust in the reputation of the builder. Difficult for new builders though.


----------



## JAndersB

Many tousands of boats are sold today with very low ballast ratios. Multihulls cruise the oceans with no ballast at all. Ovni - boats with bad AVS values are sailed by representatives for the blue water cruising scenery. 99% of the sailing is done in pristine conditions I guess.

Elan 350, as mentioned here, has only 26% ballast ratio and is praised all over the place. AVS I do not know. A normal hull shaped boat with single rudder and 26% ballast ratio, almost regardless of how deep down, would not make my short list. On the other hand, if main objective is to reduce risks, one should totally look the other way I think. The wide stern with a huge distance to fall if you loose grip I think is more of a risk than bad AVS.

Having 2 very flat boxes in the water with the same volume and width but different weights, one with a keel with 1850 kg on it, the other (heavier box) with 2050 kg sticking up towards the sky the same distance, I wonder if the difference in flipping "back" would be that different. As a novice I even speculate the heavier box should be floating deeper an should perhaps flip back quicker, or am I thinking wrong here? This could be a subjekt for many pages, or have perhaps already been?

Regarding the manufacturing of the Opium, I saw in the factory cut out examples of the hull. I also saw a boat with hull ready made but no interior. The core is really balsa, as they say themselves (hull core balsa, deck pvc sandwich). And yes, the laminate is very thin. As I said before, it was very similar to the blasa hull laminate set up of my old Dehler, buth thinner laminate. After having had another boat before, where a minor leak in the under water area caused water ingress in the whole hull through the canals in the divinycell sandwich and major costs to dry the hull, this is one of my major concerns if I buy an Opium, or any boat with a full balsa cored hull. Wet balsa I think is difficult to dry, wet divinycell does not get destroyed. In my mind it does not take that much of a log or small stone on the beach and an aft anchor that looses grip in the night and I basically have to lift the boat out of water immeaditly to make repairs. That is also a some sort of risk when sailing over oceans.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> There are several different weight numbers floating around for both the Opium and the Azuree. As usual, a boat starts is career as very light weight but when reality catches up the numbers get adjusted. I have seen the numbers for the Opium going up from 4800 to 5000 and now 5600 kg. Similar for the Azuree. Especially the difference between the Azuree fast Cruiser and Cruiser is interesting to observe. It has been getting smaller and smaller and by now it is only 200 kg. I assume the mast is not incuded in these calculations since it is a carbon mast on the Fast Cruiser and an aluminium on the Cruiser.
> 
> The Azuree Fast Cruiser is the one built with 50% carbon in the cloth, the Cruiser has only carbon in some areas so basically the weight difference should be bigger.


 Hei Anders,

As I have explained the difference between the Azuree cruiser and fast cruiser is not a lot bigger because they have chosen not to add the ballast needed to compensate the almost half a meter of difference in draft between the two versions. If they had chosen to give the same stability to both boats (as it is usual) the difference would be a lot bigger (more than 500kg).



JAndersB said:


> But still, as you said, the difference is strange. Then, if one starts looking at other boats hull weight, like the RM1200 5100 kg, Dufour 40E etc 5000 kg hull, Grand Soleil 40 5100 kg, Bavaria 40 6100 kg, Beneteau Sense 43 7500 kg it is pretty clear that the Azuree is not light but not heavey neither, it is the Opium that is outstanding for some reason. If, as Opium says, vacuum, sandwich and vinylester is the key, then Azuree should be lighter. And as a planing hull it really should be lighter I agree. ..


As I have said even with similar techniques and "apparently" equal materials more expensive performance boats are normally lighter (and the Azuree is an inexpensive boat):

Weights of hulls of quality performance boats without ballast (boats with good quality interiors):

Luffe 4004 - 3 600Kg .... J 122 - 4 220kg ....FinnFyer 42 - 4 100kg

Sly 42 - 4050kg......X38p - 3650kg

Regards

Paulo


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## G1000

Azuree pictures from factory Visita Stabilimento Sirena Marine Azuree | Facebook


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## PCP

Aac said:


> Paulo; you're making sense. There are a lot of variables - poor quality cores can soak up a lot of resin etc... Unless you are a boat builder one has to put trust in the reputation of the builder. Difficult for new builders though.


I am much more relieved...I mean regarding to making sense   

By the way, that picture of a Centurion 40 with a bent keel was taken by me, in the Rias Bajas. That boat really impressed me. Of course the keel was lead and only that explains that the hull had taken so well such a big blow. The keel deformed itself absorbing part of the blow, but I can tell you that there was not the minimum fissure between the keel and the hull...nothing, the boat looked like new

Regards

Paulo


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## G1000

PCP said:


> Luffe 4004 - 3 600Kg .... J 122 - 4 220kg .... FinnFyer 42 - 4 100kg ..... Sly 42 - 4050kg .... X38p - 3650kg


Azuree 40FC - 5100 kg. From my perspective plus 1000 kg could be justified, specially then FinnFlyer or Sly aprox. 3 times more expensive, full carbon or have "Cupboards, doors, tables, floorboards, bulkheads, walls are also Advanced Composite Constructions, i.e. sandwich GRP laminates with Divinycell core and covered by vacuum bagged thin Teak or Oak." Plus I guess there are some mistakes, just checked and:

Sly 42
Dispacement	6.900 kg
Ballast 2.520 kg
*4380kg*

FinnFlyer 42
Dispacement	6.800 kg
Ballast 2900 kg
*3900kg*


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## JAndersB

G1000, I agree. 

What puzzles me is that two boats made from the same material for the hull (ok, balsa-sandwich different), both using vacuum and the heavier even 50% carbon in the cloth, can end up with such a big difference in weight. And even if Opium is using sandwich for the interior panels, they have no carbon in it at all. So can the interior panels really be that much more heavy or bigger in numbers in Azuree. Or are they bad in getting the vinylester out of the laminate despite vacuum? Or do they use more glasfiber? But then on the other hand, I get a stronger boat.

They (Azuree, Sirena Marine) do also build Azimuth motor yachts. Weight not so important perhaps but they are not new to boat building of rather high end boats. According to Yachting World they also make composite work for the military. Perhaps bullet proof is their motto? 

Regards,
Anders


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## G1000

Azuree 40FC displacement is a puzzle. In all magazines and first catalog - 6700kg (7600kg Cruiser), but latter changed to 7100kg (7300kg). Plus prices are also increased. I just wonder why. Or maybe it's common to test very light prototype to get better reviews?

At the end of the day you never know the truth  First is data value from the manufacturer and the second is the measured one in the tests:

Bavaria 36 5500 / 6200kg
Bavaria 37 6900 / 6945kg
Dehler 36 6000 / 6800kg
First 36.7 5870 / 6085kg
Elan 37 5900 / 7087kg
Finngulf 37 6000 / 6455kg
X-37 6400 / 6953kg
Salona 37 6200 / 6535kg
Arcona 37 6200 / 6520kg
Swedestar 6200 / 6620kg
Delphia 37 5850 / 6310kg
Oceanis 6515 / 6535kg
Sun Odyssey 37 6100 / 6853kg
Linjett 37 6700 / 6845kg
Hanse 370 7200 / 8150kg 
Hanse375 7200 / 7763kg
Hanse 371 7200 / 7800kg

myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum: Hanse 371 weighted


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Many tousands of boats are sold today with very low ballast ratios. Multihulls cruise the oceans with no ballast at all. Ovni - boats with bad AVS values are sailed by representatives for the blue water cruising scenery. 99% of the sailing is done in pristine conditions I guess.


Anders, I am not used to be on the conservative side of the palisade but you are talking of different things. A multihull has 3 or 4 times more stability than a similar sized monohull and uses that factor to compensate the absence of safety stability and it is true that OVNI has bad AVS but they compensate that with the ability to glide when caught by a breaking wave. They don't trip on their keels and that compensates the relatively low AVS. But the OVNI AVS is in the same area of the AVS I saw on the Azuree cruiser Stability curve and the Azuree has a keel to trip on, even if it is not a large one .



JAndersB said:


> Elan 350, as mentioned here, has only 26% ballast ratio and is praised all over the place. AVS I do not know. A normal hull shaped boat with single rudder and 26% ballast ratio, almost regardless of how deep down, would not make my short list. On the other hand, if main objective is to reduce risks, one should totally look the other way I think. The wide stern with a huge distance to fall if you loose grip I think is more of a risk than bad AVS.


I have saw the stability curve of the Elan 350 and its alright (AVS around 120º). You know one of the problems with the weight of a boat is that technically speaking there are a lot of weights in a boat: There are light weight, minimum sailing condition weight, medium weight and Max load weight.

They don't always say the type of weight they are talking about. In the Azuree and Opium they say that it is light weight, but on the Elan 350 they don't say of what weight they are talking about. It can be minimum sailing weight and that will increase that B/D by a bit. If you see the technical specification under documentation (on Elan site) you will see that the weight given is approximatively 5000kg.

But you have a point, the Azuree 40 cruiser stability are not probably as bad as I have painted it (even if it has a relatively bad AVS) but it is also true that the Azuree fast cruiser has a better AVS, is a more stiff boat than the Azuree cruiser and that the Opium 39 has stiffness and stability characteristics closer (or better) than the Fast cruiser. The Opium should be compared with the Fast cruiser, not with the Azuree cruiser.



JAndersB said:


> Regarding the manufacturing of the Opium, I saw in the factory cut out examples of the hull. I also saw a boat with hull ready made but no interior. The core is really balsa, as they say themselves (hull core balsa, deck pvc sandwich). And yes, the laminate is very thin. As I said before, it was very similar to the blasa hull laminate set up of my old Dehler, buth thinner laminate. After having had another boat before, where a minor leak in the under water area caused water ingress in the whole hull through the canals in the divinycell sandwich and major costs to dry the hull, this is one of my major concerns if I buy an Opium, or any boat with a full balsa cored hull. Wet balsa I think is difficult to dry, wet divinycell does not get destroyed. In my mind it does not take that much of a log or small stone on the beach and an aft anchor that looses grip in the night and I basically have to lift the boat out of water immeaditly to make repairs. That is also a some sort of risk when sailing over oceans.


Here I agree with you, even if a thinner laminate could have stronger mechanical characteristics than a much thick laminate. It has to do with the impregnation of the resin under vacuum, its homogeneity and with the technique and kind of fiberglass and they use a multiaxial top laminate.

I would prefer a boat built with a plastic core instead of balsa. As you know Dehler use the system and they still do the standard new Dehler 41 with a balsa core even if they use plastic for the more "racing" version. I have asked the guy from Dehler why they still used balsa has core instead of plastic. The guy said they had not a single problem with their balsa cored hulls. I don't know if that is true or not but the Dehler has a very good reputation in what concerns the integrity of hulls, even in older boats.

But you should know that better than me. Do you know of any Dehler with problems in the balsa core?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Azuree 40FC - 5100 kg. From my perspective plus 1000 kg could be justified, specially then FinnFlyer or Sly aprox. 3 times more expensive, full carbon or have "Cupboards, doors, tables, floorboards, bulkheads, walls are also Advanced Composite Constructions, i.e. sandwich GRP laminates with Divinycell core and covered by vacuum bagged thin Teak or Oak."


I have already said that more expensive boats can be lighter because they use better materials and a more careful building. The Azuree cruiser does not enter on that category (it is an inexpensive boat for a fast boat). Besides those lighter boats don't cost 3 times more than the fast cruiser. They are bigger boats and they are not made of carbon even if some, like the fast cruiser uses some carbon mixed with less exotic fibers and some have no carbon at all.



G1000 said:


> Plus I guess there are some mistakes, just checked and:
> 
> Sly 42
> Dispacement	6.900 kg
> Ballast 2.520 kg
> *4380kg*
> 
> FinnFlyer 42
> Dispacement	6.800 kg
> Ballast 2900 kg
> *3900kg*


That's a bit rude isn't it?

I have already explained that there are not a single weight of a boat and boats have several drafts with different ballasts and weights. Probably the differences come from that, or do you think I had not checked the weights?

On the Finn Flyer site you have as weight for the 42: 7000 kg and 6800kg that correspond to two different keels with two different drafts, one with 2700kg other with 2900kg. For having the hull weight I have taken from the lighter boat the weight of th lighter keel. It gives 4100kg, as previously posted, regarding the Sly 42 I have used this file:










It gives the values I have posted. Probably the other values that you can find on the site refers to the smaller keel and that's why the ballast and the weight are bigger.

Regarding this:



G1000 said:


> ....
> 
> At the end of the day you never know the truth  First is data value from the manufacturer and the second is the measured one in the tests:
> 
> Bavaria 36 5500 / 6200kg
> Bavaria 37 6900 / 6945kg
> Dehler 36 6000 / 6800kg
> First 36.7 5870 / 6085kg
> Elan 37 5900 / 7087kg
> Finngulf 37 6000 / 6455kg
> X-37 6400 / 6953kg
> Salona 37 6200 / 6535kg
> Arcona 37 6200 / 6520kg
> Swedestar 6200 / 6620kg
> Delphia 37 5850 / 6310kg
> Oceanis 6515 / 6535kg
> Sun Odyssey 37 6100 / 6853kg
> Linjett 37 6700 / 6845kg
> Hanse 370 7200 / 8150kg
> Hanse375 7200 / 7763kg
> Hanse 371 7200 / 7800kg
> 
> myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum: Hanse 371 weighted


I have already said that:

"one of the problems with the weight of a boat is that technically speaking there are a lot of weights in a boat: There are light weight, minimum sailing condition weight, medium weight and Max load weight".

Obviously most of the weights on the left column are empty weights and the values on the right column can go from minimum sailing condition to any weight near medium load. You will have water and fuel on the tanks and you will have the weight of all extra options you have put in the boat. I don't find anything strange about it.

Regarding the weight of the boats, fast boats are light boats and there is a lot of light boats around. As you like to check it out you can check the weight of these hulls, most or all without exotic materials and you will find they are all light:

A40; Zou 40.2; Malango 9.99; Fox 10.20; Azimuth 40; Pacer 376; JPK 110; Loft 40; Pogo 10.50; Pogo 12.50.

You will find also that they are a bit more expensive than more heavy boats. For doing them light you have to do them better And some are used to race and that means that they have to be stronger than the average cruising boat.

And by the way, if you put doors and a more conventional interior on a Pogo you will probably will not add 600kg to the boat and that would still make it 1000kg lighter than the Azuree fast cruiser and the Pogo uses no exotic materials on his boats. How can they do that? Well, they have 20 years of experience in building strong and light race boats and use that knowledge to build light and strong cruising boats.

Bottom point, I have nothing against the Azuree, a boat that I like, specially in the Fast cruising version but it seems to me that doubting that other brands, with more experience in building light boats, cannot build significantly lighter boats than the Azuree, makes no sense to me. They do and you have just to look to find them

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Still, having built over 70 windsurfing boards myself I find it very strange to end up with these differences in weight if using the same material and technology. And according to Yachting World Azuree also have sandwich in the interior. Perhaps we really need to include strength in our evaluations because it is no rocket sience involved here.

As said before, weights do tend to go up from early calculations and test boats, when brochures are made, I wonder why. Strange though that, as said before, Azuree FC goes from 6700 to 7100 and Cruiser from 7600 to 7300 kg.

Anyway, Yahting World and Yacht both commented on the weight and where both impressed by sailing characteristics. What is disturbing me is that all tests of the Azuree 40 is with the fast cruiser.

Best regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

This is Azurees comment in the matter:

About the ballast ratio, as you would have already found out, the hull shape of Azuree, and in general this type of hulls, enables a lower ballast ratio with compared to traditional hull designs. 

Between our Cruiser and Fast Cruiser, the biggest difference is the longer (and carbon) mast and the much bigger sail plan of the FC. The sail plan for FC offers wider sail areas and comes with a fat head main sail, which puts more force to the upper side of the sails. Consequently, this requires more righting moment, hence the deeper keel. On the other hand, both our versions offer a performance cruiser type sailing. One Azuree 40 Cruiser has recently won La Ruta de la Sal race from Barcelona to Ibiza with our 40' Cruiser reaching speeds of 21 knots with a very comfortable feeling. I can put you in touch with the Spanish skipper of that boat( a well-kown regattist in Spain), if you would like. 

When it comes to comparing Opium 39 and Azuree 40 in terms of weight, firstly Opium is a much smaller boat. Comparing LWLs, it is 1 meters shorter than Azuree. But more importantly, standard Opium 39 comes with 2 cabins and 1 head, so it offers much less interiors in terms of layout. Also, Azuree has more details in the interior.


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> ..
> As said before, weights do tend to go up from early calculations and test boats, when brochures are made, I wonder why. ..


Once a builder have commented that with me. When a boat is designed by an Architect they make weight calculations based on the optimal use of materials.

Optimizing materials is an expensive process that is mostly done in what regards racing were the cost is not that important. They are going to make an one off and the boat is going to be expensive anyway. When you want to produce a boat cost becomes a major issue and maximizing materials to the limit is not an absolute priority anymore. Yes they will try to maximize materials if it is not too expensive taking into consideration production costs.

That's why on production boats the weight is rarely the one specified by the designer and why more expensive boats can be lighter even using the same material: Costs considerations on production regarding difficult execution and control of quality to obtain the strength/weight required by the designer. More expensive boats have a bigger margin in what concerns that cost consideration.

I remember that some years ago Bavaria had a very fast line of boats called Match. They had problems with the keels of the 42 and abandoned the project. It turned out that for producing a boat were the materials are optimized you have to have a quality control that is hard to get on a big production line or impossible without a substantial increase in costs. Optimizing materials gives no place for any mistake in the production.

I remember also, and I was impressed by it, that on the Salona shipyard they showed to me that they use transparent gelcoat bellow the water line on the lighter boats (vacuum infused boats) to be sure that there are no minor flaws on the laminate. Quality control is a big issue when you maximize materials because a mistake or a defect can have drastic consequences and the Salonas are not extremely light, the 41 weights between 7200 and 6600kg (vacuum infused boat with lighter material interior) and that without keel will be 4800 to 4200Kg, values that on the lighter version are not as good as the ones from Opium but better than the ones from Azuree even on the fast version.

Here you can see, on the right side of the image, that bottom clear gel-coat that permits to see all the laminate behind:










Of course we have to take into consideration that the Azuree is a more beamy boat and that therefore the hull will weight more but also that the Salona has an interior stainless steel frame that redistributes all keel and shrouds efforts by the hull. I don't know if the weigh of the frame compensates what they can win on the hull weight, but that will give a bigger safety margin on the more critical points of a light sailboat: Keel and shrouds attachments to the hull.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> This is Azurees comment in the matter:
> 
> About the ballast ratio, as you would have already found out, the hull shape of Azuree, and in general this type of hulls, enables a lower ballast ratio with compared to traditional hull designs.
> 
> Between our Cruiser and Fast Cruiser, the biggest difference is the longer (and carbon) mast and the much bigger sail plan of the FC. The sail plan for FC offers wider sail areas and comes with a fat head main sail, which puts more force to the upper side of the sails. Consequently, this requires more righting moment, hence the deeper keel. On the other hand, both our versions offer a performance cruiser type sailing. One Azuree 40 Cruiser has recently won La Ruta de la Sal race from Barcelona to Ibiza with our 40' Cruiser reaching speeds of 21 knots with a very comfortable feeling. I can put you in touch with the Spanish skipper of that boat( a well-kown regattist in Spain), if you would like.
> 
> When it comes to comparing Opium 39 and Azuree 40 in terms of weight, firstly Opium is a much smaller boat. Comparing LWLs, it is 1 meters shorter than Azuree. But more importantly, standard Opium 39 comes with 2 cabins and 1 head, so it offers much less interiors in terms of layout. Also, Azuree has more details in the interior.


Yes they basically confirm what I have said but regarding this: *"The sail plan for FC offers wider sail areas and comes with a fat head main sail, which puts more force to the upper side of the sails. Consequently, this requires more righting moment, hence the deeper keel."*

A deeper keel is not the only way of getting the needed stability to carry more sail. They can get the same stability with a shorter draft with more ballast. Many shipyards use this method to offer the same stability with different drafts. They have chose not to do so. That extra stability is not only important to carry more sail but to increase the AVS and the safety stability.

What I have said is that lesser stability on the cruising boat standard version while enough to carry its sail is not enough to offer a good reserve safety stability and a good AVS. The Fast cruising version is not only faster, but also safer offering a much better AVS and a much better reserve safety stability. That was what I was calling your attention too. It is up to you to decide if what offers the cruising version is good enough for you and the type of sailing you want to do. I was also pointing out that the Opium 39 offers the same kind of reserve stability and AVS that is offered by the Fast cruiser and therefore much better than what is offered by the standard Azuree cruiser.

Regarding that race "La ruta del Sal", the results are impressive on real time even if the weather conditions were ideal for a downwind maximized boat. Pity there was not there other similar types of boats to compare, but let me tell you that their publicity is misleading. They talk about an Azuree cruising sailboat and that boat is certainly an Azuree *fast* cruising boat and probably prepared for racing. A standard Azuree cruising boat would not be able to reach 21K downwind and could not have done that performance

RESULTADOS « Ruta de la Sal

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> They talk about an Azuree cruising sailboat and that boat is certainly an Azuree *fast* cruising boat and probably prepared for racing. A standard Azuree cruising boat would not be able to reach 21K downwind and could not have done that performance


It was indeed Cruiser... at least no carbon mast... no running backstay... DSC_4083 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> It was indeed Cruiser... at least no carbon mast... no running backstay... DSC_4083 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


Well, it seems that you are right . I would not have believed it if I had not seen that image. Really impressive performance.

....But looking again some doubts remain. If you go to the Azuree site you are going to see that there are lot's of photos of fast cruisers with aluminum mast and you will see also that backstay seems not to be the standard one but seems yo have a hydraulic regulation. Hummm I still consider highly improbable that this is a standard cruiser with a 2.16m keel.

Azuree

This is a 2.16 draft keel?:










Well, improbable, but it really seems that is a 2.16 draft keel










Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> ...But looking again some doubts remain. If you go to the Azuree site you are going to see that there are lot's of photos of fast cruisers with aluminum mast and you will see also that backstay seems not to be the standard one but seems yo have a hydraulic regulation. Hummm I still consider highly improbable that this is a standard cruiser with a 2.16m keel.


Exterior gallery is the same for both versions... Cruiser has fixed backstay 
http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/fotogaleri/dismekan-26b.jpg or http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/fotogaleri/dismekan-11b.jpg

Upgraded Cruiser with performance alu mast and keel should have running backstays as Fast Cruiser. Varo Azuree 40 - Azuree 40 launch - 13 marzo 2011 | Facebook

And Fast Cruiser has carbon mast. Here it looks like with "white" carbon mast http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/fotogaleri/dismekan-22b.jpg and here black one Pennetti Cup 2011


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> Well, it seems that you are right . I would not have believed it if I had not seen that image. Really impressive performance.
> 
> ....But looking again some doubts remain. If you go to the Azuree site you are going to see that there are lot's of photos of fast cruisers with aluminum mast and you will see also that backstay seems not to be the standard one but seems yo have a hydraulic regulation. Hummm I still consider highly improbable that this is a standard cruiser with a 2.16m keel.
> 
> Azuree
> 
> This is a 2.16 draft keel?:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I have had a lot of communication with their sale manager the last days and he is giving a very good and knowledgable impression. Standard on the Cruiser is a partly split backstay, on the fast cruiser the backstay is split to the top to give space for the fat head sail, and it has two jammers besides the weels to take the back stay lines.

Yes, the keel on the picture is the 2,16, you see it both from overall height and the slightly forward rake.

In regards of manufacturing I understand what you say. At the same time the Sirena factory set up is getting alot of attention and praise and for instance alla moulded parts are individually marked for quality control follow ups.

By the way, when I was at Wauquiez they where laminating reinforcements for the keel into hulls already having the interior in place. Seems odd..

Regards,
Anders


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> This is a 2.16 draft keel?:


Yes this is draft one...

>Cruiser 2.16m Azuree's Photos - Visita Stabilimento Sirena Marine Azuree | Facebook
>Fast Cruiser 2.60m Azuree's Photos - Varo Azuree 40 - Azuree 40 launch - 13 marzo 2011 | Facebook


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Exterior gallery is the same for both versions... Cruiser has fixed backstay
> http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/fotogaleri/dismekan-26b.jpg or http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/fotogaleri/dismekan-11b.jpg
> 
> Upgraded Cruiser with performance alu mast and keel should have running backstays as Fast Cruiser. Varo Azuree 40 - Azuree 40 launch - 13 marzo 2011 | Facebook
> 
> And Fast Cruiser has carbon mast. Here it looks like with "white" carbon mast http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/fotogaleri/dismekan-22b.jpg and here black one Facebook


I am quite sure you can have a cruiser with an optional backstay and you probably can have a fast cruiser with an aluminum mast. What really counts is the keel draft and that is a 2.16 keel. So it is really basically an Azuree cruiser. See my previous post.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> ....
> In regards of manufacturing I understand what you say. At the same time the Sirena factory set up is getting alot of attention and praise and for instance alla moulded parts are individually marked for quality control follow ups.
> 
> By the way, when I was at Wauquiez they where laminating reinforcements for the keel into hulls already having the interior in place. Seems odd..
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Yes that is certainly odd. I am not saying that the Opium is well made and strong. I don't know that, I only know that Wauquiez has a very good reputation.

To put even things more clear it is obviously that when you go to minimum weights you have to be very careful with material resistance and also with efforts not previewed on the boats like groundings, even not really hard groundings. Most problems with performance boats (and I am not saying they are frequent) have to do with keels attachments to the hull and to shrouds attachment to the hull. That's why if I can I will have a boat that transmits those efforts to a steel grid instead of a small part of the hull, boats like the X-Yachts, Luffe, Arcona, Grand-Soleil or Salona. And I say if I can because normally this system is expensive and those boats (with the exception of Salona) are very expensive.

I am not saying by any means that the other boats that don't distribute efforts by all the hull are not safe or built for the job I am just stating my preferences in what regards using a performance boat as a cruising boat. That one and a good reserve stability (good AVS) make part of my short list in what regards my preferences for a fast cruising boat. A good reserve stability is specially important for me because I sail solo most of the time and that makes that requirement very important.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> I have had a lot of communication with their sale manager the last days and he is giving a very good and knowledgable impression. ...


Anders,

Can you ask their sale manager to sent you the stability curves of the 2 versions of the Azuree 40? They have them because they were needed to certificate the boats.

This is the one that was published on Yachtingworld regarding the Azuree *fast *cruiser:










It shows a very powerful boat (big positive stability curve) with a somewhat poor AVS (114º). The boat has still a lot of positive stability at 90º of heel but very little at 100º of heel.

This is the best stability curve, the one with the better reserve stability. The one from the Azuree cruiser will have a lower AVS and a worse reserve stability. I would like to see how much worse. This certainly interest you also.

Ask them also the ORC file from both boats. The AVS is also there and it is from a stability curve that is made the same way for all boats and therefore more interesting for comparative purposes.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Some more pictures of the Dehler 41.

These are the only ones that I can get from the interior and confirm what I have saw on those drawings: They better find a new interior designer

Contrary to other Dehlers the interior of this one does not look good. The mast is on the middle of the boat and that is a problem that cannot be avoided, therefore all the interior design have to be made taking that into consideration and not pretending the mast is not there (has they have done in the drawings). To compensate that this interior has to be firm and strong in its lines, not an indifferent design like the one that is purposed. That space between the drawers without a port hull just looks ridiculous. It should have a port hull bigger than the other two.

I really hope they can improve it because it is a shame such a good looking boat with such a lame interior. I believe they know that but they did not even figure out yet what to do with the saloon table, never mind the rest. The solution of letting the space free is a good one but they have to figure out a practical solution for the table. Up in the ceiling and coming down around the mast it would be a nice solution. Nice but bold and they are quite conservative so I bet they will end up with a stepped mast and a shinny small chromed tube instead of that mast inside the cabin (like on the Oceanis 37), at least in the cruising versions.


----------



## EricKLYC

I have the same feeling, Paulo.
Even assuming this interior is only a first try, it does not meet the Dehler standards as I know them. Even with a table and hull windows, it will remain a quite dark "Swiss chalet" like interior with the look & feel of the past century.

Having sailed "old" Dehlers extensively (31, 34, 35 OD, 39, 44) and after reading about some of the "new" releases since Hanse took over, I start to worry about downgrading.

If this is not too much out of thread, I wonder how other "aficionados" of the original Dehler brand such as Anders feel about this. 

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Hei Eric,

By all means that is "much" inside the thread

I am not sure the problem is a quality problem, I mean regarding materials and workmanship. For that I would have to visit the boat. This seems to me a design problem. I am pretty sure that the one that have made the sketches for the Dehler interior was the same that made the sketches for the hanse 325. The interior sketches from the Hanse 325 and from the Dehler 41 were previously posted on this thread.

Hanse Yachts

You can see that is the same "artist" doing both drawings. The drawings are not bad but the quality of the design that is behind is mediocre. I had that sensation when I saw the drawings and now I can confirm it with the reality. You can make a drawing look good but you need trained eyes to see if want is going to be built based on that design is going to look good

It seems to me that the problem here is a design problem and extensive to Hanse. I don't know your opinion but I would say that technically the quality of the design of their interiors is a lot worse than the ones from Dufour, Benetau or Jeanneau (I am not talking about the quality of materials, that is equivalent). It seems that Hanse decided to take part in the design of the Dehler interior and the results are what we would expect.

They should have put instead the guys that used to design the interiors of the last Dehler designing the Hanse's interiors

The design of the boat interior is so important that today many boat builders give the interior design to a specialized studio other than the one responsible for the design of the boat (they work together). Most French boats work this way and the difference in design quality more than compensates the extra costs. Design quality can even hide shortcomings in material quality and that's a lot cheaper to have a boat well designed than a boat built with prime materials and a bad design. If you build a boat with prime materials and workmanship over a nasty design...well, it is going to look bad anyway, no matter the cost

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Eric and Paulo,
I have always found Dehlers (of modern age) very dark inside. Dark wood and small windows. Only the cws-range from early 90 is to my liking.

By the way I today finally decided and have signed for a Wauquiez Opium 39, hull 11, to be delivered 2011-06-15. It was a close call with Azuree 40 but the better size for me, lighter boat and much bigger cabin top windows where among important factors.

Regards from the cockpit of my sold Dehler in a natural harbour north of Gothebourg, in beatiful sunshine,
Anders.


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> They should have put instead the guys that used to design the interiors of the last Dehler designing the Hanse's interiors


I think that's right on top, Paulo. But how long before a Dehler will also look like a Hanse at the outside  ?

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## Aac

Interesting the lounge room look of the insides of a boat is so important to some; maybe if you lived on a boat. To me as soon as I see too much wood I cringe. It smacks of the Marina Trophy Look (MTL) and all too often style triumphs over substance. It’s as if the sailors designed a good boat only to see it destroyed by the interior designers. Then there’s the weight issue; the hull engineer goes to great lengths to minimize hull weight only to see things like 30Kg teak cockpit tables and 11 Kg doors installed (on my boat anyway). Such tables/doors look great in a house but not a boat. Using composite furniture of course goes a long way towards solving the furniture weight issue.

There also seems to be shift from that lounge room look by some designers, B-Yachts and the Pogo for example, where the minimalist looks gives functionality and most of all easy maintenance. If I were to buy a new boat these are the ones I would much prefer.

I would be quite happy with the Dehler furniture look so long as it was light weight, functional and easy to maintain; anything less would be an abomination to a well designed and built outside.


----------



## EricKLYC

JAndersB said:


> By the way I today finally decided and have signed for a Wauquiez Opium 39, hull 11, to be delivered 2011-06-15. It was a close call with Azuree 40 but the better size for me, lighter boat and much bigger cabin top windows where among important factors.


Congratulations, Anders! 
After what I heard and read about the Opium it seems to me you made an excellent choice. And I personally think the Opium also looks much better than the Azuree  .

Concerning Dehler, I could'nt agree more. The 39 CWS e.g., dating from the past century, looks much more innovative inside than what Dehler/Hanse are launching today.

But Wauquiez will certainly do an excellent quality job, also of your new interior  .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Aac said:


> Interesting the lounge room look of the insides of a boat is so important to some; maybe if you lived on a boat. To me as soon as I see too much wood I cringe. It smacks of the Marina Trophy Look (MTL) and all too often style triumphs over substance. It's as if the sailors designed a good boat only to see it destroyed by the interior designers. Then there's the weight issue; the hull engineer goes to great lengths to minimize hull weight only to see things like 30Kg teak cockpit tables and 11 Kg doors installed (on my boat anyway). Such tables/doors look great in a house but not a boat. Using composite furniture of course goes a long way towards solving the furniture weight issue.
> 
> There also seems to be shift from that lounge room look by some designers, B-Yachts and the Pogo for example, where the minimalist looks gives functionality and most of all easy maintenance. If I were to buy a new boat these are the ones I would much prefer.
> 
> I would be quite happy with the Dehler furniture look so long as it was light weight, functional and easy to maintain; anything less would be an abomination to a well designed and built outside.


One of the first boats to use that lounge room look was the Gozzard and that one is not very light

Today it is possible to have a good looking interior with very light materials. somewhere back there is a post about the FinnFlyer. Look at the weight of the boat and look at the beautiful interior. That interior is beautiful and light

There are many uses for a sailboat but if one of them is living in it for extended periods I will want to have a minimum of comfort and a nice ambiance.

Regarding the Dehler the weight of the furniture would be about the same, bad or well designed.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

EricKLYC said:


> Congratulations, Anders!
> After what I heard and read about the Opium it seems to me you made an excellent choice. And I personally think the Opium also looks much better than the Azuree  .
> 
> Concerning Dehler, I could'nt agree more. The 39 CWS e.g., dating from the past century, looks much more innovative inside than what Dehler/Hanse are launching today.
> 
> But Wauquiez will certainly do an excellent quality job, also of your new interior  .
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Thanks' Eric, it will be exiting to take the thing out for spin.

My wife is a furniture designer for Ikea and she is not a fan of dark, wooden caves so she liked the more modern look of the Azuree interior but she could live with the light and well put togheter interior of the Wauquiez. By the way, the new Opium 47 will have a much more modern look inside.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi Eric and Paulo,
> I have always found Dehlers (of modern age) very dark inside. Dark wood and small windows. Only the cws-range from early 90 is to my liking.
> 
> By the way I today finally decided and have signed for a Wauquiez Opium 39, hull 11, to be delivered 2011-06-15. It was a close call with Azuree 40 but the better size for me, lighter boat and much bigger cabin top windows where among important factors.
> 
> Regards from the cockpit of my sold Dehler in a natural harbour north of Gothebourg, in beatiful sunshine,
> Anders.


The interiors that were dark were the ones from some years ago. The Dehlers I have saw in the last years on the boat shows have nice interiors and light woods. Of course, probably you have to pay more for it (probably mahogany is standard) but everybody choses to pay



















Anders, Congratulations for the Opium 39 . Like the Eric I like it a lot more than the Azuree and I really would be concerned about the safety stability of the Azuree Standard cruiser. Do you have asked them the stability curve?

I didn't want to push it with you because you really looked very interested in the Azuree, but now that you have decided have a look at the stability curve from the Opium and look at the differences with the one from the Azuree fast cruiser:



















Regarding reserve stability you read it this way - the force the boat is making to right itself up is equal to the area under the curve from that angle of heel till the AVS. If both curves are very similar in what regards low angles of heel you will see that the areas (and the force the boat is making to right itself up) from 70º to the AVS are very different and hugely different after 90º of heel. And that curve is the one from the Fast cruiser, the one from the Standard cruiser is will be a lot worse in what regards reserve stability.

Maybe it is because I once got caught in the middle of the night by a tornado or a micro burst or some weird meteorologic phenomena that have my boat lying in the water for what seamed to me like a long time (even if probably it was just some minutes) that I really consider important a boat to have a good safety stability. When the wind stopped to blow at a huge speed the boat right itself up, like it was nothing notwithstanding a radar dome in the mast. I would really hate to have continued knocked-down specially because my daughter was inside the boat

Regards

Paulo


----------



## yus

Dear friends I would need your support to choose the next boat for living aboard full time. 
I have to tell in advance that I dont have enough time to sail far or crossing oceans. I do some nice weekend in the 40 miles radius and some holiday inthe summer, covering a distance of 400 - 500 miles. So my main use of the boat is like a house. In the beginnig I was considering to buy a new boat (azuree or opium) but now I changed idea. I'm considering to buy a Bavaria 49. I'm impressed by the space inside! 
I know the quality is not comparable with Hallberg Rassy, but I would like to know some opinion regarding the safety and durability of such boats.
Do you think this is a reliable yacht or I will waste my money buying one?
The general opinion about Bavaria doesnt encourage the purchase, but what is the truth about this boat?
Thank you in advance for your suggestions.

Regards, yus.


----------



## PCP

yus said:


> Dear friends I would need your support to choose the next boat for living aboard full time.
> I have to tell in advance that I dont have enough time to sail far or crossing oceans. I do some nice weekend in the 40 miles radius and some holiday inthe summer, covering a distance of 400 - 500 miles. So my main use of the boat is like a house. In the beginnig I was considering to buy a new boat (azuree or opium) but now I changed idea. I'm considering to buy a Bavaria 49. I'm impressed by the space inside!
> I know the quality is not comparable with Hallberg Rassy, but I would like to know some opinion regarding the safety and durability of such boats.
> Do you think this is a reliable yacht or I will waste my money buying one?
> The general opinion about Bavaria doesnt encourage the purchase, but what is the truth about this boat?
> Thank you in advance for your suggestions.
> 
> Regards, yus.


Yus, are you for real?

Some posts back you have said:



yus said:


> .. We live aboard our blue water cruiser boat for 9 years and now it is time to buy a new different type of boat. We are very much interested in the new fast cruiser boats below 40 feet, we appreciate the concept and the main features. We need a strong and safe boat which is also suitable to live aboard. I know a 40 feet could be the best solution but our purchase budget is limited and also we need to keep low the expenses.
> The Azuree 33 seems to be very attractive (I have read almost all your articles in the thread). In the same cat and range price I have found the Elan 350, which is pretty too. In a different category (cheaper also) there is the Oceanis 34, but I have some doubts about her general building quality and safety. Same feeling for the bigger sister Oceanis 37, which anyway could represent a good compromise quality-living space/price. But the first two boats are much more attractive. An other boat to investigate could be the RM 1050, but I don't know to much about this model. I don't like the galley and the front cabin. I loved the 1200 but out of range.
> I would appreciate your comments about what I said and my needs. Any type of support will be more than welcome.
> Yus


And now you want a Bavaria 49? what happened to the low budget? even if you are talking of an used boat the maintenance, the insurance and marina costs would be hugely superior.

You say that you have lived the last 9 years on a small boat and now you want a 49ft? Are you going to sail it alone, take it alone from the marina?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## yus

Hello Paulo! I understand you are shocked, but few days ago when I got into a Bavaria 49 I was impressed by the space inside. So I thought "this is what I need in terms of space"! So I'm exploring the possibility to evaluate the purchase of such boat. Of course I mean to get an used one. Budget is still very low, but in the market you can find a good one for 100k€. 
That is all. So pls give some opinion about Bavaria on the base of real experiences.
Regards


----------



## EricKLYC

Aac said:


> Using composite furniture of course goes a long way towards solving the furniture weight issue.
> 
> I would be quite happy with the Dehler furniture look so long as it was light weight, functional and easy to maintain; anything less would be an abomination to a well designed and built outside.


Some builders go all the way and even provide no doors at all, or only one for the heads/shower. It looks quite shocking but in fact it can work quite well, at least for us since we do not intend to live on board.
And the furniture you really need can now indeed be made in very lightweight but evenly strong composite materials. I held between fingertips a floorboard that could carry my (excessive  ) weight without a crank. Of course this only makes sense for light displacement boats intended for planing, on a Hallberg-Rassy type of yacht these (expensive) materials are of no use. The inside must honour the outside. But it does illustrate why the €/kg ratio can be high without being excessive .

Interiors are of course especially a matter of personal taste, but I also agree with Aac that they may at least be functional and certainly not a source of needless trouble (slots oxydating, hinges breaking, ceelings, linings and kit coming loose etc.) or excessive work for cleaning and maintenance (mildew behind coutermouldings, dust and dirt in inaccessible spaces). So functional minimalism also suits me very well, although I perfectly understand why many others don't like it at all .

Meanwhile I carefully monitor the excellent discussion about (vanishing) stability. Looking only at the basic figures the Pogo 12.50 should do quite well, but I did not see the stability curve yet. I look forward to your expert opinion, Paulo. Even if it's bad news, I'll take it like a man  !

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## JAndersB

I also tried to find more info for the Pogo 12.50, even if I erlier excluded it from my shortlist partly based on communication with a Norvegian RM1350 ovner. It would be nice to compare ballast ratio and AVS with Opium and Azuree. 

He found the 10.50 interior on the pretty new test boat alredy looking very batterned and more important the bare hull and deck visible everywhere causing to much noice and condensation. But if you do not intend to spend an extensive time aboard, and also not in our somewhat colder climate that would not be so important. Design wise both me and wife liked the Pogo interior.

Paulo, I had had so many question rounds with Azuree when you asked for the AVS-curve so I intended to ask for it later, and now when I stepped of the deal in the very last moment, it feels a little silly to do it.

Yes, latest Dehlers, or at least bigger ones before Hanse take ower, have brighter interiors at least as an option. But still they miss out on hull windows, and cabin top windows on a level where somebody less than 2m can see out.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

yus said:


> Hello Paulo! I understand you are shocked, but few days ago when I got into a Bavaria 49 I was impressed by the space inside. So I thought "this is what I need in terms of space"! So I'm exploring the possibility to evaluate the purchase of such boat. Of course I mean to get an used one. Budget is still very low, but in the market you can find a good one for 100k€.
> That is all. So pls give some opinion about Bavaria on the base of real experiences.
> Regards


I don't think that you can find a Bavaria 49 for 100 000€ at least with the VAT paid. I think it is a 2002? boat and the best I could find was 125 000 € with VAT not paid. There is nothing wrong with the boat even if I would not call it an interesting boat. For a mass market boat is a strong boat that was made primarily for charter work and the fact that it was proven very well and was chosen in large scale by charter companies says well about its robustness. But pay attention, 7 years on a boat doing charter can be the equivalent of more than 20 years of use by a typical owner. Almost all the boats you will find in the market will be of decommissioned charter boats.

As I have said the maintenance of a boat will have to do with size and any 10 year's old 50 ft will have a very expensive maintenance if compared with a new or almost new 37ft.

That's my last advice to you , If you want a boat with a very good and big interior to live aboard but small enough to be sailed and maneuvered in a marina by a couple look for an used Oceanis 43 with two cabins. The interior is very well designed and the boat will have more than enough sailing abilities for your program. Probably all the boats you will find in the market with two cabins will not be ex-Charter boats but owner's boats and many of them will be very lightly used. The prices are not bad but well over 100 000€ but not more than what would cost you a new Benetau 37 or a new Azuree 33.

Oceanis 43 / Oceanis / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> ...
> 
> Meanwhile I carefully monitor the excellent discussion about (vanishing) stability. Looking only at the basic figures the Pogo 12.50 should do quite well, but I did not see the stability curve yet. I look forward to your expert opinion, Paulo. Even if it's bad news, I'll take it like a man  !
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Eric,

I think you have already suffered enough . You have nothing to be affraid regarding the Pogo stability, namely the AVS and the safety stability. That's a finot/conq boat and Finot was the guy that have pressed hard to make mandatory on Open 60's and class 40's very strict seaworthiness and reserve stability characteristics. He takes safety very seriously.

I don't have the stability curve of the 12.50 (you should ask for one) but I have an older one from the First Pogo 40. Five or six years ago I was interested in the cruising version of the Pogo 40 and I have asked them for a stability curve.

The one I am going to post is from the race boat but I am sure the new boat has not very different characteristics in what regards stability. Contrary to Azuree, Pogo (and Finot) compensates the lesser efficiency of the keel of the cruising boat (less draft or swinging keel) with significantly more ballast (450Kg).

I believe the stability curves of the racing boat and the cruising boat will be very similar (not taking in consideration the liquid ballast of the race boat). On the racing keel boat you have a 3m draft and a 1800kg bulb. On the swinging
Keel or the 2.2 m bulbed keel you have 2250kg ballast. That's a 450kg difference and one that seems adequate to compensate that 0.8 m different in draft. Maybe there is still a slight difference in what regards stability to the racing boat, but not a big one as in the Azuree 40.

Most of the stability difference between the Pogo racing and the Pogo cruiser will come from the liquid ballasts that are inexistent on the cruising boat. The racing boat will also be faster because only in ballast that 3 m draft permits it to be almost 500kg lighter.

Other factor that indicates a very good stability curve with a good AVS and a good reserve stability is the high B/D ratio for a boat with a bomb keel and a 2.2M draft: 40% of B/D taking into consideration those characteristics is a very good ratio.










Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

Here the stability curve of the Pogo 12.50 with keel up and down (so it's the swing keel version I assume)

What do you think about this?

Ulf


----------



## EricKLYC

Thanks a lot, Paulo and Ulf!

These are indeed very similar curves, as one can expect from similar designs. 
And I have been already told never to sail except with the keel fully down  !

Only the absolute values of the righting moment are quite different. Is that relevant from a security point of view or is the shape of the curve most important?

Thanks again for your expert opinions!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Ulf and Eric,

Yes, they are very similar. As I have thought the one from the racing boat is marginally better, with just a bit better AVS. A very good stability curve with plenty safety stability and a good AVS 

Eric, the numbers are different because those are different curves. The one I have posted is a GZ curve. It is about the size of the arm. the units are meters. The one that Ulf posted is a RM curve. The shape is the same but that one is the one that measures the real thing, the righting moment. The units are Tones for meter.

Regarding what I have said regarding the force that the boat is making to right itself up, to be correct, it is on that curve (RM) that you should measure that. The RM curve is obtained multiplying in each point of heel the GZ by the boat displacement.

And Eric, I am no expert, just a guy that likes to understand things, particularly boats. Experts are the ones that design them .

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

Thanks a lot again Paulo, for what certainly is an expert opinion. 

I think you need to be an expert to point out the difference between the length of the righting arm and the resulting righting moment. And an excellent moderator to explain the correct interpretation clearly in just a few words.
I also very much like to understand things, but this thread helps me a lot to look a bit further than B/D ratio, draft, beam and AVS. 

And of course I am now very happy to read and understand that I did not make a bad choice, at least when it comes to stability  !

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## Chimbatete

The greatest sailboat (Cruiser, Racer, cruiser/racer)) under $1Million is the Dragonfly 1200 w/o a doubt. Now if you can live with the price good for you. I feel its about $200k overpriced.

The Sirius Werft 35ds (thanks Paulo)is up there if you have a family to consider along with the Fantasi Yachts 44 Pilot House out of Sweden. Both are the perfect family cruising boats.

Then you have the American classics semi custom (40ft) Morris, Shannon, Hinckleys

For me after that its a toss-up between these boats

Najad 440 CC
The new X-yachts 42c
Pacific Seacraft 40
Moody 45DS

This RM1350 though has some appeal.


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> The greatest sailboat (Cruiser, Racer, cruiser/racer)) under $1Million is the Dragonfly 1200 w/o a doubt. Now if you can live with the price good for you. I feel its about $200k overpriced.
> 
> ....


Welcome to sailnet and to this thread in particular. I think you are exaggerating about the Dragonfly 1200. I think they should make a new boat to replace that one. It is an old one and not really deserving to be among the other Dragonfly. If they gave me to chose between the 1200 and the 35 I would chose the 35 in a heartbeat. The 1200 is slow and heavy, not really faster than a fast performance cruiser like the Pogo 12.50 or the Zou 40.2 and a lot more expensive with no more interior space and a much smaller cockpit. But that is just my opinion. I look forward to the boat that will soon substitute that one (I hope).

For Nemier that is looking to fast trimarans, a new one, the carbon 3 by Nigel Irens. Well it has no interior but it has certainly speed .



















A damed fast 40fter:

Just look at this movie:

YouTube - ‪Carbon3 First seatrial‬‏

Carbon3 by Tuco

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Its funny how ones taste in interior can change. I was involved in the furniture industry many years back and at the time all I wanted was a pale beech or ash interior, alternatively while paint with some simple timber trim a'la Herreschoff.

Since owning Raven I've come to revise my thinking. She has a dark timber interior and rather than being oppressive I find it calming and surprisingly enough no great problem in warm/hot weather.

Our new boat is also dark timber interior. She has in effect a fully enclosed cockpit and my gut feeling is that we will spend most of our time up there even in winter as the enclosure with it solid screen is to a large extent a deck saloon with a drop top.

Anywho, Chimbatete, you overlooked one obvious contender from your list ..

Malo

This is the new M40 which replaces the M39.


----------



## Chimbatete

I did exaggerate abit on the 1200. They do need to change it up. The DF35 is kinda the perfect size but the seperate cabin of the 1200 is just a a major plus and very unique (which fits this thread).

I find the Malo's and HR's interiors not to my taste. I prefer the modern open interiors like the Najads, Hanses, X Yachts. The No-frills (Ikea) interior of the RM's works for me. Although the Morris 42 interior is drool inducing.

Silly question for you guys, big open cockpits thats found on cruiser/Racers like the x-yachts etc, good for the open ocean?


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> I did exaggerate abit on the 1200. They do need to change it up. The DF35 is kinda the perfect size but the seperate cabin of the 1200 is just a a major plus and very unique (which fits this thread).
> 
> I find the Malo's and HR's interiors not to my taste. I prefer the modern open interiors like the Najads, Hanses, X Yachts. The No-frills (Ikea) interior of the RM's works for me. Although the Morris 42 interior is drool inducing.
> 
> Silly question for you guys, big open cockpits thats found on cruiser/Racers like the x-yachts etc, good for the open ocean?


I agree with what you say about the interior space of the Dragonfly 1200. That's why I really would love a new one, lighter and with a performance close to the 35, even if I will never be rich enough to have on unless I win the lotery

I can understand your taste for less classical design on the Najad interior but mixing Hanse's interiors and Ikea style (and quality)? Nah, you can have the Hanse's interiors to yourself (and that's a big advantage to like that because they are a lot less expensive).

I have to say that even if I like some modern interiors I like also the warm that a classic interior provides. I would have changed most modern interiors by the quality and coziness of a Malo interior. I partially agree regarding the Halberg Rassies. Great quality quality but an overall worse design quality if compared with Malo's.

Take a look at this Malo interior. I would not mind to live there permanently 

YouTube - ‪Malö 47‬‏

Regarding the open cockpits, the answer is yes. These boats sail fast with bad weather and you will never be hit strongly from behind by a wave but if a lateral small breaking wave hit the boat laterally, in a closed cockpit boat you will have tons of water on the cockpit that will take time to go away. In the meantime you have a boat with a damaged stability. On an open cockpit the water comes in...and go out in a split second. Regarding going overboard, you should be clipped to the boat in bad weather, so that's irrelevant.

For me the ideal situation is an open cockpit with a seating bench on the back. Most of the boats that have an open cockpit offer that as an extra.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Its funny how ones taste in interior can change. I was involved in the furniture industry many years back and at the time all I wanted was a pale beech or ash interior, alternatively while paint with some simple timber trim a'la Herreschoff.
> 
> Since owning Raven I've come to revise my thinking. She has a dark timber interior and rather than being oppressive I find it calming and surprisingly enough no great problem in warm/hot weather.
> 
> Our new boat is also dark timber interior. She has in effect a fully enclosed cockpit and my gut feeling is that we will spend most of our time up there even in winter as the enclosure with it solid screen is to a large extent a deck saloon with a drop top.
> 
> Anywho, Chimbatete, you overlooked one obvious contender from your list ..
> 
> Malo
> 
> This is the new M40 which replaces the M39.


Andrews,

The reason there are not Malos on this thread is because they have not a new model for ages (they only change each model once in a decade ). The last one was the 37, three years ago or something like that (great boat). Has you already know, when that 40 come to the market (6? years ago) that was my dream boat. It has still one of my preferred interiors. I love their saloon table system. Even if the standard boat comes with mahogany but as you know there are a lot of different types of mahogany and the one they use it is a clear type of mahogany, much clearer than the one that was used on the Dehler and in many boats, like the Bavarias for instance.

Today I favor a faster boat but I have still a soft spot for the Malo 40 and if I could I would have a faster boat with the building quality of the Malo. But I can't, it would cost a fortune (it would be a Luffe or a X-yacht).

Regarding the 39, It has a great interior, not different in style or quality from the one from the 40:

By any chance do you know this boat   

YouTube - ‪Malo 39 hand built in Sweden by Team Windcraft YT.m4v‬‏

It has a cozy and good looking interior

That's the teak platform that I was talking about (on the other thread):



















The Classic version is much more beautiful, has more storage space but as you are going to find out, it is not easy to come aboard from the dinghy, groceries and all. This nice platform removes that inconvenient.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

Paulo,

Seems to me that a boat with an open cockpit with enough weight is the way to go for offshore contrary to what you read in forums like this one.

I'm pretty new to sailing (5 years) starting crewing for my wifes uncle. I sail in Lake Ontario and I'm surprised that even hardened racers of 30 years have never ventured out of the lake. At the same time 70% of the boats are C&C and CS. But in a way its a good lesson on following reality (what you are really going to use the boat for) instead of fantasy (rounding cape horn) when getting a boat. But to me, I want to be able to know that I can reach the Carribean in our winters when I get older given the option.

Anyway, my contribution being from Canada. (Underrated country with great boat building traditions.

The Gozzard 41. I love this family run company and with their bulletproof hulls and innovative interiors. Highest quality throughout. It just seems like a very traditional slow boat and I also cant afford one.

YouTube - ‪Gozzard 41.mov‬‏


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> ....
> 
> Seems to me that a boat with an open cockpit with enough weight is the way to go for offshore contrary to what you read in forums like this one.
> 
> ...


Weight as little to do with offshore sailing. There are heavy boats that are pigs as well as light boats.

Take a look at this light boat and this solo sailor on the roaring fifties. Is not this seaworthiness enough for you? Is this not a great offshore boat?

YouTube - ‪Beluga Racer in Southern Ocean‬‏

YouTube - ‪Southern Ocean‬‏

Note that this boat is solo sailed, it means that sometimes he just take a bit sail out, put the auto pilot and is going to sleep, letting the boat take care of him...without loosing too much speed.

This boat is very similar in stability and seaworthiness (a bit faster) to one popular blue-water performance cruiser that is one of the favorites on this thread, the Pogo 12.50.

Regarding Canada you have one of the best builders of the Farrier and the one that has made the first Farrier 39:

The New F-39

Yes the Gozzard has a great interior, but regarding the rest in what regards hull, keel and performance is a boat from the past.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

Wow that didnt look like 50 footers but I truly bow down to those guys. 

Yes I agree with you because I see these gutted out boats racing the southern ocean but reading the forums people always refer to the Morris, Shannons, Crealocks Tayanas, even Island Packets when someone asks for Blue water boats. Everyone is suggesting old boats and I have never understood it because they cost as much as the RM 1050 for example. Why would I get those?

That Farrier is bad ass but I cant get past the interiors as compared to the DF.

That 47 Malo is gorgeous but I'll never be able to afford one. I have 30 years til retirement and I may not come up with a downpayment on that one. Same for the X-yachts.

I'm really saving and setting my sights on the RMs and Pogos of the world. It more realistic for me as it can accomodate a family of 4 or 5 for fun and race at the same time. I've seen some pics where they made the interiors a bit more "attractive" and I also like the brightness.

I can't imagine the faces when I park one of those at my club. 

BTW Paulo this is the best thread...it forced me to join the forum.

Hahahaha I just checked the price list. These guys charges for the air you breath below deck.


----------



## mitiempo

It has always bothered me that most think an offshore boat has to have a long keel and a displacement/length ratio over 300.

To me an offshore boat has to be strong, have a fast draining cockpit, an easily handled rig, and things like handholds in the proper place. But it does not have to be a heavy boat. And fast is good!


----------



## PCP

mitiempo said:


> It has always bothered me that most think an offshore boat has to have a long keel and a displacement/length ratio over 300.
> 
> To me an offshore boat has to be strong, have a fast draining cockpit, an easily handled rig, and things like handholds in the proper place. But it does not have to be a heavy boat. And fast is good!


Yes, and a good stability curve with a good reserve stability for recovering fast from a knock-down.

As you say an easily handed rig is fundamental. You know and I know that a boat that is very difficult to handle in a given situation will became a joy to sail after properly reefed and ballanced

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Andrews,
> 
> The reason there are not Malos on this thread is because they have not a new model for ages (they only change each model once in a decade ). The last one was the 37, three years ago or something like that (great boat). Has you already know, when that 40 come to the market (6? years ago) that was my dream boat. It has still one of my preferred interiors. I love their saloon table system. Even if the standard boat comes with mahogany but as you know there are a lot of different types of mahogany and the one they use it is a clear type of mahogany, much clearer than the one that was used on the Dehler and in many boats, like the Bavarias for instance.
> 
> Today I favor a faster boat but I have still a soft spot for the Malo 40 and if I could I would have a faster boat with the building quality of the Malo. But I can't, it would cost a fortune (it would be a Luffe or a X-yacht).
> 
> Regarding the 39, It has a great interior, not different in style or quality from the one from the 40:
> 
> By any chance do you know this boat
> 
> YouTube - ‪Malo 39 hand built in Sweden by Team Windcraft YT.m4v‬‏
> 
> It has a cozy and good looking interior
> 
> That's the teak platform that I was talking about (on the other thread):
> 
> The Classic version is much more beautiful, has more storage space but as you are going to find out, it is not easy to come aboard from the dinghy, groceries and all. This nice platform removes that inconvenient.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,

To be honest I never thought the Malo was suitable for this thread but I could not resist the opportunity .. 

As per other thread, some kind of swim/boarding platform will be an essential addition. I have already spoken with Malo, they said it would be too expensive to send from Sweden but will give any assistance to have made in Australia. As I intend to retain the Hydrovane I'm thinking either a half platform or perhaps two half platforms that will fold up though have a quick release reachable from the water. Also need a boarding ladder.

A walk through transom has obvious benefits and for me is a nice feature but this is not the boat for that. Such it is.


----------



## PCP

More information about the Salona 38:

Weight : 6300kg (less 400kg than the 37)

Ballast with 1.98M keel :2270kg (more 70kg than the 37)

Draft options: 1.75m and 2.25m

Beam: 3.62m (more 2 cm than the 37)

LWL: 10,15m (more 20cm than the 37)

Sail Area: 88.40m2 (more 2.70m2)

So, less 400kg of weight, more 70kg of ballast and more sail, this is going to be a FASTER boat and the 37 is a Fast boat . It will be also a stiffer boat with a better ballast/displacement ratio, 34% a bit better than the average for this type of boat. And the boat is a looker also. Pity the stern. This boat deserved a more modern one.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> 
> To be honest I never thought the Malo was suitable for this thread but I could not resist the opportunity ..
> 
> As per other thread, some kind of swim/boarding platform will be an essential addition. I have already spoken with Malo, they said it would be too expensive to send from Sweden but will give any assistance to have made in Australia. As I intend to retain the Hydrovane I'm thinking either a half platform or perhaps two half platforms that will fold up though have a quick release reachable from the water. Also need a boarding ladder.
> 
> A walk through transom has obvious benefits and for me is a nice feature but this is not the boat for that. Such it is.


Not for this thread? why not? I assure you that the reason is only the one I have said. Not any recent model.The last was the 37 and I like it a lot, specially the more expensive classic version. Definitively a very interesting sailboat.

From the three Nordic classic cruisers: Najad, Malo and Halberh-Rassy the Malo is the one I prefer, with the exception of the HR 372 (I really hope HR continue to make boats along those principles).

Regarding the windvane, listen what the previous owner said to you: He was not using it and it seems the guy had done some passages. Most people are not using them anymore. Modern autopilots are very good don't waste much energy and work better. I am saying this only because I don't think you can have a decent boarding platform on that transom maintaining the wind-vane.

I think a fixed strong platform will be better and it can have an integrated boarding ladder like the one in the Malo. If well made can serve two purposes: from the water to the boat or when up, to facilitate boarding and going up.

To prevent resistance on the water on big waves the boarding platform can be a stainless steel tube structure filled with a a large teak grid. That way the resistance would be a a lot lesser as the pressure on the attachment points in the transom. That is the thing you should see with Malo because the force made there will be considerable when the boat passes big waves. That's why the ones made by Malo are small (look at the photos )

Regarding the Malo 37, better late then never:

The boats weights 8.1 ton was a Ballast of 2,7 ton, a Length overall of 11.80 m (classic version) a LWL 9.90 and 106 m2 of sail.

It is an heavy boat but its big stability permits it to carry with ease 67m2 of sail . It will not be a fast boat but will have a decent sail performance. It is a true bluewater boat with a small inverted stability and lot's of reserve stability and a big tankage. That's a perfect boat for the ones that don't want a big boat but want a relatively fast and comfortable bluewater boat with a long range capacity...and have the money for it Really is not that much, it is a bit less expensive than the HR or the Najad, has the same quality and is faster (except the HR 372).

http://www.maloyachts.se/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=tV4pI7/VaXg=&tabid=135

http://www.maloyachts.se/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=JqXlAvauXNM=&tabid=134&mid=723

Some more information:

http://www.maloyachts.se/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=OpX478rISnk=&tabid=136&mid=712

http://www.maloyachts.se/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=FtfqlWx9xU4=&tabid=136&mid=712

Blue Water Sailing

Malo 37 - Sailing Today

Malö 37

Sail Buyers Guide: Malö Yachts (Boats)

YouTube - ‪Vaartest Zeilen magazine Malo 37‬‏



























































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## HDChopper

Jeez O peets thats a beauty Paulo ! 
Excise me while I go change my skivvies....

I knew better than to look in here again


----------



## tdw

Man oh man you just have to love that foldaway swim/boarding platform.

Oh well , time to sell the old girl and buy a new one. 

Actually this might work and is what I may do. That way I can keep the vane steering, though I lose the ability to fold away. I'd like to keep the vane, at least until I have had the chance to try it out. If we did dispose of the thing the platfor will still work.


----------



## PCP

Andrews,

Yes, that is a good solution at least till you or your wife gets bruised on that menacing wind vane and you find out that it is of no or little use I hope it will be a small bruise

That way you can always remove the wind vane without losing the platform. But consider what I have said regarding not to be a completely closed platform, like that one, but one made wit a teak grid, like the ones you have in some heads. I think it is important to diminish the force made in the transom in bad weather and big waves.

You may think I am exaggerating, but let me tell you a story: Old "Traineiras" (Portuguese fishing boat) maintained this beautiful long stern even when they lost sails and were only motor boats:



















Till they found out that in very heavy conditions that could be a liability. Several sterns broke when on huge waves all the weight of the boat stand on the stern (we have sometimes big waves along the coast). The boats were not new, but that was a weak point and they finished with that stern design (they used to built them here in Peniche).

The force that is going to be made upward on that platform when the boat is passing a big wave will be probably more than the one that is made there with two people standing. Make sure the design is up to it in what regards not only down force but also upwards force...or have a teak grid.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Paulo,
I agree re grid. Steel structure will be to Malo specs.
Cheers
Andrew
(Now get back on topic ... )

though I do thank you for your advice.


----------



## blt2ski

Showed spouse the Evosion 34 pics last night, YUCK!! was her comment, inside was not very salty, boaty, ala lots of teak or equal wood type stuff.......harrumph! oh well, not that I could afford one, or an X as she likes........can always dream!

Marty


----------



## PCP

Hey Marty, you are going to love this one, a small boat, the Juwel 28 also known as the Broker 28. Never heard about it till I saw an interesting movie and thought: a hell of a boat .

It is a Danish boat. I love Danish boats, it is incredible how such a small country as so many great boats (X yachts, Luffe, Faurby, Nordship). This one is a 10 year old design but is just beautiful. Enjoy the videos. Nice music too

YouTube - ‪Team ICE Mors Cup 2009 - Fast sailing, 35 knots tws‬‏

YouTube - ‪GoPro HD as headcam - racing with teamice.dk‬‏

Juwel 28



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

First Jeanneau 376 photos and more Drawings.

The boat does not look bad but the high free-board is a lot more apparent than on the Jeanneau 409

After the Jeanneau 409 it would be difficult to do better or even just as good. The interior looks good, but nothing outstanding. The port hulls on the saloon are high and will not provide a good view from the outside. The Galley seems very good for a 38ft, with lot's of storage space. The head, on the two cabin version seems also very good for the size of the boat, with a separated shower. The interior of the 2 cabin version is much better: Nicer saloon with two berths instead of one and much better head.

The keel solution with a center board is very interesting, providing as bonus two rudders.

On the short draft keel (the one that is posted) the rudder is about at the same level as the Keel. I don't like it and seems dangerous to me in case of grounding. This means that probably that boat has a good wheel control but also that the designer have designed it with a deeper keel, the one that is standard, with 1.95m. I would not have the boat with the 1.50m keel, what they call a lifting keel, that is in fact a short keel with a center board seems a better solution to me.






















































































































more photos here:

YouTube - ‪New Jeanneau Yacht 379 Sun Odyssey Sailboat for sale By: Ian‬‏


----------



## PCP

Just some really beautiful boats, the ones millionaires should have instead of those ugly big motor bots. Millionaires do have them but just the ones with good taste and unfortunately they are a minority.



















































































































































































































































































































And some movies:

YouTube - ‪Westward Cup IV - Yachting World‬‏

YouTube - ‪Westward Cup II - Yachting World‬‏

YouTube - ‪Pride of Baltimore II‬‏

YouTube - ‪Westward Cup III - Yachting World‬‏

YouTube - ‪12mR G4 Sphinx‬‏

YouTube - ‪Tall ships race 2010 - Antwerpen - Ålborg CR‬‏

YouTube - ‪REGATA BARCOS EPOCA‬‏

YouTube - ‪Les Voiles de St Tropez 2010‬‏

YouTube - ‪Westward Report YouTube‬‏

YouTube - ‪British Classic Yacht Club Regatta and Metre and Keelboat Regatta report‬‏

YouTube - ‪Antigua Classic Yacht Regatta 2006‬‏

YouTube - ‪J Class Shamrock V 2008 Sailing in Montenegro, Croatia and Greece‬‏

YouTube - ‪136' 4" RANGER J CLASS SLOOP SALES PROMO NORTHROP & JOHNSON YACHTS HD.mov‬‏

YouTube - ‪Les Voiles De St Tropez‬‏

YouTube - ‪10.08.26 Panerai highlights - JUE race1.mpg‬‏


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

the info on the 379 has not been forthcoming, a little here, a little there.....some of those I had not seen, all info you have has been released in the last week or so.

It does seem a lot of upper crust boat owners are doing the power thing. Probably because they are easier to handle etc, they owner does not like the heeling etc. PLUS the power yacht can get there sooner etc etc.....

I had not seen the dutch boat either. Now come to think of it, my step dad who taught me to sail is dutch! any way, off to the boat for a bit.

Marty


----------



## blt2ski

Too early in the morning for me right now, and a few stressfull things going on, so probably not seing the differences right now. Apologies to all danes I insulted!

Back to finishing a few work things, boat things, maybe a weekend of rest and no stress! maybe.......

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Too early in the morning for me right now, and a few stressfull things going on, so probably not seing the differences right now. Apologies to all danes I insulted!
> 
> Back to finishing a few work things, boat things, maybe a weekend of rest and no stress! maybe.......
> 
> Marty


Marty, 
Danes are from Denmark, Dutch are from Netherlands, they are neighbors and that means that in their long past they had necessarily some conflicts between them. A bit like calling Spanish to Portuguese or calling Texans, Mexicans, if you follow my drift

Netherlands also makes some very nice boats but they are a lot more conservative and they have being paying for that. Their production and number of boats has decreased.

*Attention to all of you that like beautiful well made blue-water boats with a traditional outlook*: take a look at the boats that are made in Nederlands.

They have a big problem however, like all boats make this way, they are expensive.

Some Dutch boats:

Contest Yachts | Home

Victoire Yachts

C-Yacht zeiljachten | Zeiljachten van klasse uitgeroepen tot zeiljacht van het jaar

Home

Atlantic Aluminium zeiljachten | home | Atlantic Yachts

Breehorn Woudsend

Naamloos document

Bijko Jachtbouw - home Noordkaper 40

Zeiljachten

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

paulo,

I think there are MANY country's and regions that have the conflicts you speak of! Here in Wa state where I am, there is those of us west of the cascade mtns, them swines east in the desert on the other side of the mtns....LOL

We had a exchange student from Denmark the same age as my sister, 3 yrs younger when they were sts in High school. So got a bit of the difference. And a lady I did some work for many years ago was also from Denmark, bragged ALL about there chocolate, best in the world! 

All parts of the world have things that might be better than the part you are in for various and sundry reasons. Now if we can stop the blinking wars etc, and realize, we are the same, dispite some differences in the way and where we live for what ever reason!.........that was probably lost back when Adam ate the apple! or was it Eve?!?!?!?

Marty


----------



## bb74

I checked the search engine and didn't find any test sails so I figures I'd throw this out there as it is first hand experience from last week in the Med on two boats that have found their way to this thread but without much info.

First sail for 2 1/2 days on a 2009 Bene Oceanis 37:

Region was Pourquerolles - about 50 miles 2 days. F2-3.

First impression is it looks and feels like a 35. Interior is standard - this was a 3 cabin model - with moderate storage, good headroom, poor nav station. - Note that I hate the bench / nav station looking backwards. galley was fine, ventilation was fine, cabin space and headroom was 35 footer - very similar in size to the SO 35i I sailed for 10 days a couple year back. Build quality is OK, systems and engine access is OK at best.

Sailing wise, it was a nice suprise. 6.2 to 6.5kts from about 42° thru full offwind (without a Spi)in 13 kts wind. We could point to about 38° and maintain speed while actively managing the rudder. Best was around 40-42. Hit 7.7 on a couple of occasions downwind on main and genois. Stable, very good control, predictable motion, good feedback and fingertip controls. Deck gear was undersized for heavy weather but the boat felt very good under sail. Not sport boat sailing but much, much better in helm control and feel than the SO 35i. Overall an interesting boat that needs to improve on interior build materials and quality but that has very good sailing potential. We were double handing.

After 2 1/2 days we swapped out to a Bavaria 42 due to transmission problems on the 37 (worn cone cylinder and they needed to pull the engine.... ouch!)

The Bavaria 42 was from 2007 so not a spring chicken after 5 years of charter but the first impression was that it was huge under deck. Well over 2M headroom, large cabins with good storage in fore cabin, OK in rear cabins. 2 toilets with showers and a port galley. Real chart table and nav station. The quality is much better than the SO or Oceanis in that it is full wood on anything carrying a hinge. No particleboard. very well aged with few if any signs of the beating it must have taken over the years (Kiriakoulis was the charter company in Bormes les Mimosas, France). Getting around the table was a bit tighter than expected and it could use more readily accessible storage in the main and rear cabins but overall I was impressed with the build quality and durability. (Note I always thought of Bavaria as the motor home of sailing so I was more than pleasantly suprized...)

Under sail it's not a beast or very fast but it works just fine. In light winds the boat worked very well in the 39 to 42° range. 9 kt wind we were close to 5.5kts at 40°, 12 kts we were hitting 6.5 at about 40°. Once the wind hit the 14-15 kts we could point higher in the 37° range at about 6.8kts. Offwind, once beyond 65° we were at 7.3 to 7.5 in the 14 kts wind range. Downwind (without a Spi) the boat slowed to about 6.5kts. You need a big kite downwind to keep the speed. One note is there is a fair amount of leeway - I estimate about 7° when pointing upwind at less than 7 kts wind. Good motion, decent rudder feel. Wheels got stiff around 7.5 to 7.8 kts and I'd guess around 8.2-8.3 you need to reef down to keep rudder balance. Overall the deck hardware was well adapted to the size and power of the boat (we had a furling main). I was impressed overall on the durability and pertinence of the design. It's not sexy or fancy but it does "work". The cockpit layout was a bit snug with the center table making it difficult to single hand or double hand in tough circumstances (foresail winch sheets are far apart and the table is smack in the middle to move from one to the other). Not a showstopper, but annoying to me because I like to have everything a step away. Autonomy is good on water and diesel. Fairly pronounced prop walk to port which makes docking under a strong starboard wind a bit tricky (It took 2 tries...). Establish 2 kts and it's fine however - just need to understand and compensate. We were 6.

Overall, I was pretty impressed with the build quality of the boat. Much better than the French mainstream stuff I've sailed on (Dufour 325, SO 35i, Oceanis 37, etc). Doesn't sail "better" than those boats and of the 3 mentioned the Oceanis 37 is a nice sailing boat. Depending upon your program and needs, the Bavaria is really a good boat. Plain vanilla in many ways, but it's pretty good, plain vanilla.

Happy to add more for those specifically interested in the boats mentioned. I have a personal preference for sportier boats as I've noted in previous posts.


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## PCP

Thanks bb74,

Very nice post. Your impressions are in accordance with my experience with Bavarias and what I have heard from Charter operators and also with what I have herd and read about the Oceanis 37.

Regarding the Oceanis 37 (a Finot design) I like so much the boat and its relation between price and performance that last year I have asked a dealer how much it would cost to modify the boat to be a better performer: Premium sails, Gennaker pole and genaker, removable stay sail and so on. It was not so inexpensive anymore

I have heard that the boat can go very well under spinnaker or geenaker downwind with a remarkable stability and speed, and as you say, it is not bad upwind even if decent sails and a better rigging would improve that a lot.

The polar shows a fast boat that can easily sail over 7K (10K wind) and that with 30K wind can do over 12K downwind.

http://www.finot.com/bateaux/batpro...is37/vpp/polaire oceanis 37 bec de canard.pdf

I like the Oceanis 37, that contrary to the other mass production boats does not seem fat (that's probably why bb74 says that it looks like a 35ft) and has a good storage pace, specially in the two cabin version that also has a decent head. Three years after being released is still my favorite mass production 37fts 

Regarding the Bavaria 42 I am not surprised with your findings. I had own one Bavaria for almost 10 years and my wife used to compare the quality of it with other boats on boat shows and he was always complaining about other comparable boats being not as resistant and having less storage space. Also that is the reason there are so many Bavarias doing charter. They can take better the abuse. Regarding sailing speed even if they are no rockets its speed potential is normally underestimated. They have also a remarkable performance package (that we cannot find in charter boats) that includes top quality sails and lead big draft keel.

Some years ago I charted a 44 from a Spanish guy that was doing with it the offshore solo Spanish championship and he was doing alright. The boat was maximized and was not slow, it was very agreeable to sail . It was also an easy boat to sail solo.

Thanks again bb74. Guys, this is a great idea. If any of you guys sail a recent boat, please make a post about it. I am going to see if I can find the notes I have taken last year when I sailed a Dufour 425 and I will take notes about the 2011 Salona 41 that I am going to charter this year.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

The new Cigale 16,an aluminum boat and, one of my favorites, was tested by the French magazine "Bateau". They have said very well about the boat but they din't like the steering position. They want two wheels, they say that the one that is there is too big. Well, I have been inside the boat in the Paris boat show and I loved the wheel position and I loved the boat. The guys from Voile and Voiliers didn't like it also. I have an explanation: That boat is strictly for big guys. I have 1.90 and the two other guys (looking at the photos) probably have not more than 1.70. They could barely look over the wheel

Regarding the place for the wheel man, probably they are right because Marc Lombard, the designer, that was on board agreed on the two wheel set up.



















Seriously and back to the test: This boat has not water ballasts like the previous model(I loved the water ballasts  ) , it has two rudders and more 15% of sail area. The weight and the ballast are about the same but now all the ballast is on a bulb. They are considering to have an all carbon rig. The boat costs about half a million euros.

They had about 13 k wind and they found out that the Genoa was badly cut and that didn't permit them to go closer than 45º of the true wind.

At 45ºTW they were making 7.5K with little helling. Opening up, 60º to 90º they got easily 8.5/9.5K. Downwind with a geenaker they got 9/10K going till 11K.

On the trade winds, with constant 18/25K, this boat is going to be very fast and very comfortable. They say the boat pass the waves without slamming and the reduced heeling will also contribute to that comfort (the boat is designed to perform best with 17º of heel).

The boat has a great cruising interior with a big sail storage space. On this video, made in the Paris boat show) you can have a feeling about the interior, but that is a low quality video and I can tell you that the boat looks a lot better than on the movie.

Voiles et Voiliers : Chantier - Video voilier Salon nautique, nouveau Cigale 16 : bien, mais&#8230;

The boat is a looker and that is not frequent in aluminum boats:


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## PCP

A bit ashamed by bb74 post, finally I am going to post my impressions on the Dufour 425 I had charted last summer. It was a 5 month old boat and probably had already been subject to some savage treatment: Someone had saw in the galley wood (in several places) probably while cutting bread with a a big knife, the bow showed the marks of lack of care taking the anchor out of water (it was badly chipped) and the fiber near the stairs (that supported the weight) was strained and almost broken and broke while we were using it.

The boat can have an Inox bow protection that I strongly recommend even if that damage of the boat was just incredible (I had never had any problem in taking the anchor out). That fiberglass support of the stairs needs a reinforcement that would not be difficult to do with two stainless still plates. A weak point in a very well designed stair system/storage/bench, the best I ever saw.

But first things first, why I, looking for a fast performance cruiser boat have decided to extensively test a mass production cruiser? Well that boat offers a very good cockpit and I have read in tests that it was fast. It offers also a big interior with an excellent galley and an extraordinary overall storage space. It is one of the few 42fts that I would have with three cabins because the storage space is just enough even with 3 cabins. The Dufour 425 had passed my wife examen in what regards storage, overall quality and design. It would be a boat that would be very agreeable for living extensively.










Big freezer, big galley. Under the opposing seat (that serves as support when the boat is helled) there is a large storage space.










The saloon is big and under some of the seats there are more storage space. The quality of upholstery leave to desire and the quality of the plastic covers is not agreeable (imitating leader). They have better quality as an option and the upholstery can be redone later by a good professional. We like more the traditional set up, with the galley separated from the saloon but I can see here the advantages in storage and size of galley that this disposition can provide.

My wife really loved the two heads, specially the one in the main cabin, big, with a good cabinet and a very good separated shower.










The main cabin is also very good and the back ones are good.



















The chart table is big and the seat very comfortable. It is really a nice place to be working, reading or to be surfing the net.










Dufour 425 â€" Dufour 425 Sailboat â€" Boat factsheet

The boat has a good all around ventilation and a good access to the engine. With 450L of water and 160L of fuel has a good tankage.

On the outside the revolving system that turns a back seat into a storage space and putts the ladder into the water is very well designed but no so well executed. It can be fixed easily. It can also provide a different sailing position at the wheel. You can sail with the seat down having more space to steer and using the lateral sides for support. You have just to pull the stairs up. Multivalent and nicely designed




























On the cockpit, besides that storage space under the back seat the boat has two deep lockers on the back, one on each side that would be great for having all the fenders ( for that you have to tie all those lines and tubes and have some work for maximizing its storage potential), independent space for two bottles of gas and two big side lockers. The anchor looker is also big, with lot's of space for storage of garbage bags (before they can be disposed).





































The boat has an excellent cockpit, big, with the winch near the wheel and a very good sun cover, with bimini joining the sprayhood. The table is well made and has the right size. The anchor support and roller is well designed with space to run a second anchor, but it could be stronger. Not difficult to reinforce although.






















































another very nice feature that I had only found out later is the space for the dinghy that was obviously studied and that is rare. You can carry a 4 person dinghy in a central space, not touching nor obstructing any openings and in a place where the spinacker halyard will just put it, if you use it to put the boat in and out of the water. To take it or in the water is a simple one person job. On that position the boat does not also interfere with the sailing and has just the right spots to tie it down. Just perfect 









Regarding myself and the things that are more important to me, the boat does not look fat as most of its sisters do, the high free-board is not apparent and I find it a good looking boat. What have decided me to test the boat was a comparative test with the XC42 that had shown very similar sailing characteristics (speed and sea motion comfort). Well, I have not money for the X42, but this one was just a bit over the budget, so I decided to have a good look at it.

The boat weights 8820kg has a 2.10m bulbed keel with a 2440kg of ballast. This gives a B/D ratio of 28%. I would have liked more but that is a measure that is in accordance with the boats of this type with some with less, like for instance, the Beneteau 43 with 27%. It carries 84 m2 of sail. This weight to sail area is also average on the class.














































The tested boat had not the performance sails it is a standard version that is somehow more sportier than the standard version of other brands with the exception of the Hanse, that is comparable. The boat had a folding propeller (that I doubt it was working, I mean folding)

So lets see if this boat that satisfies my wife and me in what regards living aboard will satisfy me and my speed mania

First agreeable impression was how easy is to sail this boat solo. That winch near the wheel is just a big help.

The second impression is that the steering is not very informative. Not really heavy but very far away from my old Bavaria and some other more sportier boats I have sailed. I did not like it

The genoa had a damaged tunning line (some stupid had blocked it with a lot of blind knots) and I could not prevent it to beat slightly when really pointing to the wind) and has I have said these were just plain dracon sails. With that I have managed:

With 6.6k wind 4.5k speed at 35º ApW and 5.4K speed with 7.2K wind.

With 8.8k wind 6.6k speed at 38º Apw and with 8.7K wind 5.9K at 28º Apw.

As I have read on other tests, this boat could point to the wind and had a decent speed with weak to weak medium winds.

I was not so convinced with medium speeds were the boat could go very easily to 7K but had difficulty in reaching 8K.

With 12.3K wind at 60º Apw 7.1K speed, with 12.8k wind at Apw 90º (140º true) 5.7k speed and at 170º TW 4.0K speed.

We do have reached 8K and over several times with more wind but I had not measured it. I was having fun

Under engine (55 hp) the boat performed well: 7.5K at 2500rpm, 6.8K at 2000rpm.

Well, in the end we loved the boat, specially the big galley and the cockpit (and my wife the shower) but the boat has not just the performance I want, specially with more wind. I guess it has to do with the relation between sail area and weight. This year I am going to charter the Salona 41 that has less 1600kg, the same ballast but deeper and has more 27m2 of sail. I guess it is going to be different

So if this is not the boat I want why this long post for a boat that is almost being substituted by a new one? Well because this is an excellent cruising boat, a fast boat with light winds, with a good pointing ability and a boat that will satisfy sailors that are not so performance minded has I am and most of all a boat that the ones that don't have the budget for a new boat can find at nice prices in the used market. The boat was sold in large numbers and that's the right time to buy a good boat with few years by an attractive price

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

PCP said:


> Hey Marty, you are going to love this one, a small boat, the Juwel 28 also known as the Broker 28. Never heard about it till I saw an interesting movie and thought: a hell of a boat .
> 
> It is a Danish boat. I love Danish boats, it is incredible how such a small country as so many great boats (X yachts, Luffe, Faurby, Nordship). This one is a 10 year old design but is just beautiful. Enjoy the videos. Nice music too
> 
> YouTube - ‪Team ICE Mors Cup 2009 - Fast sailing, 35 knots tws‬‏
> 
> YouTube - ‪GoPro HD as headcam - racing with teamice.dk‬‏
> 
> Juwel 28
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


oh man, how would that be for around the buoys and/or a bit of club twilight. Sweet as.

Now what about the Cigale - very nice indeed. Has the feel of the Steve Dashew Sundeers in some ways.


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## Chimbatete

Paulo,

Any insights on SAGA yachts esp the 409. Modern "Euro" look but Canadian built solidness and quality. Perfect balance of a proven blue water, good performance in light winds and absolutely gorgeous interior. Great stowage and big tanks. Most of all, 3-4 year olds are in the $200ks range which I find relatively economical.

For the price, I can't find flaws in this boat but again I'm a newbie.









YouTube - ‪41' Saga 409 @ dreamcatcheryachts.com‬‏


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## mitiempo

The Saga 409 is nice but I prefer the older Saga 43 by Bob Perry.


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## Chimbatete

mitiempo said:


> The Saga 409 is nice but I prefer the older Saga 43 by Bob Perry.


Everyone prefers that 43s but the interior layout of the 409 seems alot brighter on more open concept and I may be wrong but seems to be a tad nimbler in light winds.


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## nemier

*Ruined*

Paulo,
You are witnessing the dramatic disintegration for my mono love.  
All I can think of is Trimarans now. Small, medium, large, I love them all.
Spending a lot of time over at SA/MH trying to learn as much as I can. I've signed on to many multihull boards, ordered a lot of books and I'm looking at study plans all the time. Dragonflys, Farriers, Corsairs, Contours, and designs of Chris White, Mike Waters, Kurt Hughes, Dick Newick, Antrim, et al... I'm even looking at Weta's and Windriders for the beach.
Probaby just a phase I have to work through..  
BTW, thanks for post 1218.


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## mitiempo

I've never sailed a multihull but I could learn to like a Chris White Atlantic cat.

Atlantic Catamarans by Chris White Designs Performance Luxury Catamaran

Here's the 42 at 20 knots.


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## Aac

I've put together a table of many of the new boats mentioned on this thread. It assumes a bulb keel. The righting moment at 90 degrees is given by Draft*Ballast. The Draft*Ballast/Weight number is what I consider important for stability (hull form neglected).

The table is sorted by Draft*Ballast/Weight. This is a very basic analysis but its no coincidence the boats considered performance boats have the highest number. Also scoring well are the so called quality boats such Hallberg-Rassy which even though is not a performance boat it is stable.

All boats mentioned are of course good; I would opinionate however and say all boats from and including Beneteau First 40 are very 'good'.

Draft, Ballast, Draft*Ballast, Weight, Draft*Ballast/Weight 
1.55____2357____3653____8260____0.44____Beneteau Oceanis 40
1.70____3240____5508____10465___0.53____Beneteau Oceanis 46 Shoal
2.03____2336____4742____8990____0.53____Dufour 405 GL
2.15____1385____2978____5350____0.56____Elan 35, Shoal
2.00____2750____5500____9800____0.56____Moody 41
1.52____5443____8295____14514___0.57____Island Packet, IP460
2.05____2915____5976____10465___0.57____Beneteau Oceanis 46, Deep
2.35____1300____3055____5350____0.57____Elan 35, Deep
1.75____3040____5320____8940____0.60____Bavaria Vision 40, Shoal
2.10____2386____5011____7950____0.63____Dufour 40e
2.10____2260____4746____7450____0.64____Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409
2.10____2600____5460____8500____0.64____Bavaria Cruiser 40
1.80____3311____5960____8981____0.66____Saga 409
1.98____2951____5843____8800____0.66____Hunter 41 ds
2.05____2685____5504____7900____0.70____Hanse 400
2.10____4000____8400____12000___0.70____Najad 410
2.15____1850____3978____5600____0.71____Wauquiez Opium 39
1.92____3600____6912____9500____0.73____Malo 40
2.14____3040____6506____8940____0.73____Bavaria Vision 40, Deep
2.45____2469____6049____8300____0.73____Elan 410
2.18____2760____6017____8250____0.73____Delphia 40
1.88____4671____8781____11791___0.74____Rustler 42
2.10____2800____5880____8000____0.74____Luffe 43Ds
2.29____2903____6648____8892____0.75____Tartan 4000
2.25____2400____5400____7200____0.75____Solana 41
2.20____2700____5940____7800____0.76____RM 1200
2.11____3266____6891____8936____0.77____Catalina 400
1.98____2494____4938____6396____0.77____C&C 121
2.30____2736____6293____8140____0.77____Bavaria Sport
2.25____3892____8757____11300___0.77____Elan 45, Shoal
1.90____5000____9500____12170___0.78____Blue Water 420CC
2.60____3445____8957____11300___0.79____Elan 45, Deep
2.20____2995____6589____8095____0.81____Dehler 41, Standard
1.93____3340____6446____7900____0.82____Beneteau First 40
1.99____4100____8159____9988____0.82____Hallberg-Rassy 40
2.65____1930____5115____6230____0.82____Sydney 39
2.50____2600____6500____7800____0.83____Arcona 410
2.08____2400____4992____6000____0.83____Luffe 40.04
2.41____4770____11510___13779___0.84____Beneteau First 50, Standard
2.35____2760____6486____7600____0.85____Wauquiez Centurion 40s
2.80____4300____12040___13779___0.87____Beneteau First 50, Deep
2.20____2200____4840____5450____0.89____JPK 110
2.50____2520____6300____6900____0.91____Sly 42
2.40____2995____7188____7590____0.95____Dehler 41, Racing
1.80____3000____5400____5600____0.96____B Yachts, B 42, Shoal
3.00____1800____5400____5500____0.98____Pogo 12.5
2.50____2730____6825____6800____1.00____X 41 One Design
3.00____1800____5400____4800____1.13____Pogo40 Racer/Cruser
2.47____3100____7657____6400____1.20____Archambault A40rc
3.00____4200____12600___10500___1.20____Allures 44
2.40____3000____7200____5600____1.29____B Yachts, B 42, Deep
2.77____3352____9285____6985____1.33____Santa Cruz 43
3.60____4600____16560___11229___1.47____Marten 49, Sailing - not light displacement
3.60____4600____16560___9500____1.74____Marten 49


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## SecondWindNC

Chimbatete,

I've gotten to do quite a bit of sailing on a Saga 409 both in protected waters/light air as well as offshore, and I really like the boat. She's very responsive and has a nice turn of speed with the big main and 110 jib. I've only used the Code Zero a couple of times but she'll sail on a whisper with that.

She's really in her element offshore. Like any boat with a relatively flat section forward she can pound a bit to weather in lumpy seas, but otherwise I spent the whole time grinning about the boat. We turned in great passage times without ever feeling like we were working for it. _In Concert_ has the in-mast furling main with vertical battens, and it worked great both in terms of ease of use as well as providing plenty of drive. The cockpit is roomy and well set up, with good sightlines from the wheels; a dodger integrated with the arch provides lots of shelter on watch. The aft cabin and both settees make good sea berths, and the forward facing nav station is very comfortable for working or visiting.

The interior is beautifully finished in cherry, with plenty of handrails and other places to grab (shorter sailors may want to hang some strops from the overhead handrails when heading offshore, but I'm 5'10" and had no trouble reaching them). Lots of headroom and very light in the salon; mesh shades were added to the fixed windows to reduce the heat/UV while still allowing visibility.

I have gobs of pictures and a few videos; if you're interested pm me with your e-mail address and I'll be glad to send you some.


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## PCP

Aac said:


> I've put together a table of many of the new boats mentioned on this thread. It assumes a bulb keel. The righting moment at 90 degrees is given by Draft*Ballast. The Draft*Ballast/Weight number is what I consider important for stability (hull form neglected).
> 
> The table is sorted by Draft*Ballast/Weight. This is a very basic analysis but its no coincidence the boats considered performance boats have the highest number. Also scoring well are the so called quality boats such Hallberg-Rassy which even though is not a performance boat it is stable.
> 
> All boats mentioned are of course good; I would opinionate however and say all boats from and including Beneteau First 40 are very 'good'.
> 
> Draft, Ballast, Draft*Ballast, Weight, Draft*Ballast/Weight
> 1.55__ 2357____ 3653______ 8260_____ 0.44 ____Beneteau Oceanis 40
> 1.70__ 3240____ 5508______ 10465____ 0.53 ____Beneteau Oceanis 46 Shoal
> 2.03__ 2336____ 4742______ 8990_____ 0.53 ____Dufour 405 GL
> 2.00__ 2750____ 5500______ 9800_____ 0.56 ____Moody 41
> 2.05__ 2915____ 5975______ 10465____ 0.57 ____Beneteau Oceanis 46 Deep draugt
> 1.75__ 3040____ 5320______ 8940_____ 0.60 ____Bavaria Vision 40, Shoal
> 2.10__ 2386____ 5010______ 7950_____ 0.63 ____Dufour 40e
> 2.10__ 2260____ 4746______ 7450_____ 0.64 ____Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409
> 2.10__ 2600____ 5460______ 8500_____ 0.64 ____Bavaria Cruiser 40
> 1.98__ 2951____ 5843______ 8800_____ 0.66 ____Hunter 41 ds
> 2.05__ 2685____ 5504______ 7900_____ 0.70 ____Hanse 400
> 2.10__ 4000____ 8400______ 12000____ 0.70 ____Najad 410
> 2.15__ 1850____ 3977______ 5600_____ 0.71 ____Wauquiez Opium 39
> 1.92__ 3600____ 6912______ 9500_____ 0.73 ____Malo 40
> 2.14__ 3040____ 6505______ 8940_____ 0.73 ____Bavaria Vision 40, Deep
> 2.45__ 2469____ 6049______ 8300_____ 0.73 ____Elan 410
> 2.18__ 2760____ 6016______ 8250_____ 0.73 ____Delphia 40
> 2.29__ 2903____ 6647______ 8892_____ 0.75 ____Tartan 4000
> 2.25__ 2400____ 5400______ 7200_____ 0.75 ____Solana 41
> 2.11__ 3266____ 6891______ 8936_____ 0.77 ____Catalina 400
> 1.98__ 2494____ 4938______ 6396_____ 0.77 ____C&C 121
> 2.30__ 2736____ 6292______ 8140_____ 0.77 ____Bavaria Sport
> 1.93__ 3340____ 6446______ 7900_____ 0.82 ____Beneteau First 40
> 1.99__ 4100____ 8159______ 9988_____ 0.82 ____Hallberg-Rassy 40
> 2.35__ 2760____ 6486______ 7600_____ 0.85 ____Wauquiez Centurion 40s
> 2.50__ 2520____ 6300______ 6900_____ 0.91 ____Sly 42
> 2.40__ 2995____ 7188______ 7590_____ 0.95 ____Dehler 40
> 1.80__ 3000____ 5400______ 5600_____ 0.96 ____B Yachts, B 42
> 3 00__ 1800____ 5400______ 5500_____ 0.98 ____Pogo 12.5
> 2.50__ 2730____ 6825______ 6800_____ 1.00 ____X 41 One Design
> 3.00__ 1800____ 5400______ 4800_____ 1.13 ____Pogo40 Racer/Cruser
> 2.47__ 3100____ 7657______ 6400_____ 1.20 ____Archambault A40rc
> 2.40__ 3000____ 7200______ 5600_____ 1.29 ____B Yachts, B 42


That concept seems interesting, I mean: Draft*Ballast/Weight. It was divised by you or you have seen it in another place?

Of course this only works for bulbed keels and not all bulbed keels are similar. I will try to better the data you have posted and perhaps you can later improve that board . I assume the Dehler 40 is the 41? And I think the ballast you have for it is not the one from the racing version (draft 2.40) but the ballast from the version with 2.0 draft and the weight should be 8000kg, for the cruising version. What is the Bavaria sport? Is the 40s?

The information provided is also only valid for reserve stability and not overall stability unless you are comparing boats with the same beam (for the same length).

Beam is very important to form stability and form stability is very important to generate initial stability and that is the one that is used to power the boat. That's why fast beamy boats with an average number, like the Dufour 40e, can have the stability to carry a lot of sail. Compare it for instance with the First 40, a boat with a not dissimilar performance and you are going to see that the First has a much bigger number (better reserve stability) but the sail that it can carry is about the same (same initial stability). That's because the First is a narrower boat.

Again., thanks for this contribuition, that seems to be a very interesting one

Regards

Paulo


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## Aac

PCP said:


> That concept seems interesting, I mean: Draft*Ballast/Weight. It was divised by you or you have seen it in another place?


I do math by trade and thought of it but its not rocket science; I'm sure many others have done something similar.

That number, lets call it Q=Draft*Ballast/Weight, is the first thing I look at in a boat. After that of course is the make/quality. The Q gives a good idea of stability and the amount of sail that the boat will allow; it also gives an idea of how it may perform as high weight is penalized. Boats like the Pogo of course also has a lot of form stability even though it has a high Q. If its useful then I will update the table. I will fix the error and I'm sure there're more errors.


----------



## Chimbatete

Anyone seen this yet...maybe its been posted.

Its a JP54..the damn interior rotates lol

YouTube - ‪the JP 54 - the boat of the third millenium‬‏


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## Chimbatete

SecondWindNC said:


> Chimbatete,
> 
> I've gotten to do quite a bit of sailing on a Saga 409 both in protected waters/light air as well as offshore, and I really like the boat. She's very responsive and has a nice turn of speed with the big main and 110 jib. I've only used the Code Zero a couple of times but she'll sail on a whisper with that.
> 
> She's really in her element offshore. Like any boat with a relatively flat section forward she can pound a bit to weather in lumpy seas, but otherwise I spent the whole time grinning about the boat. We turned in great passage times without ever feeling like we were working for it. _In Concert_ has the in-mast furling main with vertical battens, and it worked great both in terms of ease of use as well as providing plenty of drive. The cockpit is roomy and well set up, with good sightlines from the wheels; a dodger integrated with the arch provides lots of shelter on watch. The aft cabin and both settees make good sea berths, and the forward facing nav station is very comfortable for working or visiting.
> 
> The interior is beautifully finished in cherry, with plenty of handrails and other places to grab (shorter sailors may want to hang some strops from the overhead handrails when heading offshore, but I'm 5'10" and had no trouble reaching them). Lots of headroom and very light in the salon; mesh shades were added to the fixed windows to reduce the heat/UV while still allowing visibility.
> 
> I have gobs of pictures and a few videos; if you're interested pm me with your e-mail address and I'll be glad to send you some.


Thanks SC, weve been bombarded with too much Euro stuff which truthfully is not all good. I just love the looks of the Hinckleys, Shannon, Morris and the Cabos, proven ocean cruisers and work of art at the same time but for a price. Its nice to see a compromise boat like this one. It seems like many people are complaining about ventilation down below due to small hatches and the joinery work not of the highest quality. But this is a boat that I can upgrade in with more experience in 3-4 years since I dont want to be stuck in Lake Ontario. And the price point of a 5 year old being in the 200k's, while steep is still reachable. Ill drop you a PM.


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Everyone prefers that 43s but the interior layout of the 409 seems alot brighter on more open concept and I may be wrong but seems to be a tad nimbler in light winds.


Well, that is the Saga problem. They wanted to improve in design with the 409 and they did. They hired Tony Castro a modern boat architect and he designed a new generation boat and a boat with better performance than previous Saga. The problem is that Saga sells boats mostly in America to very conservative clients that still think that older boats were better boats 

Saga had said about the design intentions:

The SAGA 409 design is the first of a new series of more stylish *performance orientated cruising boats*. With a modern superstructure and Interior design, it is intended to respond to contemporary desires of a more ergonomic and stylish feel and blend it with all the classic requirements of a seagoing sailing yacht.

.... we asked ... about the choice of Tony Castro to design of the new 409.

"...His performance credentials are virtually unsurpassed. He's won four world championships and the Admiral's Cup under IOR, developed the new Laser sportboat, designed a world champion 6-Meter and the British America's Cup contender Blue Arrow. And he has produced some spectacular projects (like the recent 32 meter performance cruiser executed for Jongert) that combine speed, comfort, and flair.

"With the 409, we were after a more ergonomic and contemporary feel," said Poole. "In addition, Tony has a full-service office. We needed a designer to focus on performance, structure, and exterior style, but we also wanted to add to the boat's appeal belowdecks. I felt that Tony could do that much better than we could.

"I use the metaphor of the Volvo cars," Poole continued. "Volvos from the '70s and '80s were safe, efficient, durable and performed very well, but they were boxy. The contemporary Volvos are certainly just as solid and efficient. They just look better."

And Tony Castro said about it:

"The challenge was to take the no-nonsense Saga and wrap it in a more-modern package. There's always a tension between function and style. In the end, of course, you have to blend all of the elements into a seakindly and pleasing sailboat. What it boils down to is bringing what style and design you can to what features you can without ever letting style affect use." 
We must agree. From her tiger-eye portlights to her slightly-sprung sheer and saucy counter, the 409 is snappy, modern, and, well, almost sexy. *It's certainly not your grandfather's performance cruiser.*

The boat has a much more modern hull if compared with the 43 (and that is not surprising since the 43 is an older design) a great interior that seems to have a very high quality (never been inside one) and their specifications on materials and building techniques are very high.

Some years back I have heard some polemics about the Saga building quality by I did not follow it and I cannot comment on it.

The boat still looks modern, considering it is a 6 years old design and its outside line has some similarities with the Elan cruiser line and with the Southerly line:

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

Southerly 42RST



















The interior is more interesting and innovative and I like it a lot specially the layout even if I find that port hulls to give a view to the saloon are indispensable on today's interior boat design:

SAGA 409 Interior




























The bad news have to do with performance: Even if this boat is fast by American standard's and to American clients, it would be slow by European standards. It has a sail area/Displacement of 17.6 while a boat like the Dufour 425 has more than 20 and even Conservative traditional boats like the Malo 40 have 19.7. The second has to do with price that is near the price of Malo or Halberg-Rassy and that makes it a boat that only few can afford.

But in the end I agree with you, this is a modern boat, a good cruiser and a quality one. The sail performance would not satisfy me but it will be enough for many and this one is also a good bluewater boat with a bulbed keel, a good B/D ratio and a good reserve stability.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

Paulo thanks.

You're the best! I want you to take me under your wing lol. The Saga 409 is a compromise boat no doubt. With price in consideration and its being built in Mississauga, Ontario where I'm a stones throw away makes it reality for me its one of the best for what it offers. Ive seen early 2000 swedish boats which still has 100ks over a newer 409s but they're mostly not available here. 

I think people need to take into consideration that I may think that the Sirius Werft is the best boat but getting it here and paying all the necessary costs is just not realistic unless of course I have unlimited cashflow.

BTW this thread has gone over 100 pages and its ironic that the first boat posted (Sirius DS35) is still the best one IMHO.


----------



## PCP

Aac said:


> I do math by trade and thought of it but its not rocket science; I'm sure many others have done something similar.
> 
> That number, lets call it Q=Draft*Ballast/Weight, is the first thing I look at in a boat. After that of course is the make/quality. The Q gives a good idea of stability and the amount of sail that the boat will allow;...


Not really about the overall stability neither about boat performance, unless the boats have the same size and beam. I am pretty sure about this:



PCP said:


> ...
> 
> The information provided is also only valid for reserve stability and not overall stability unless you are comparing boats with the same beam (for the same length).
> 
> Beam is very important to form stability and form stability is very important to generate initial stability and that is the one that is used to power the boat. That's why fast beamy boats with an average number, like the Dufour 40e, can have the stability to carry a lot of sail. Compare it for instance with the First 40, a boat with a not dissimilar performance and you are going to see that the First has a much bigger number (better reserve stability) but the sail that it can carry is about the same (same initial stability). That's because the First is a narrower boat.


Perhaps you can leave that number as an indicator of reserve stability and can get another formula to initial stability. That is not going to be an easy one because beam increases a lot initial stability. I have no idea of the factor but I am sure that a simple multiplication will not be enough (not even close) to account for the initial stability provided by the increase in beam.

To complicate things, more ballast and a lower ballast also increases initial stability even if in a much more moderate way.

To find a formula that will integrate all these factors will not be an easy task and will require a lot of work and a constant match with reality, using reference boat data to see if the formula works. I suppose that advanced design boat programs will have this figured out and that using them you can have a pretty good idea of the final results changing parameters. I have heard that some of those programs cost more than a boat

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> ....
> I think people need to take into consideration that I may think that the Sirius Werft is the best boat but getting it here and paying all the necessary costs is just not realistic unless of course I have unlimited cashflow.
> 
> BTW this thread has gone over 100 pages and its ironic that the first boat posted (Sirius DS35) is still the best one IMHO.


Well, they have sold at least one to Japan. But I would not say that it is the best boat. The best boat depends of what you want from a boat.

Even in that type of boat the Sirius 35 has very strong competition. Yes the boat has a great interior but the Nordship 36 also, in a different way, not so detailed but looking stronger. If I was on the market for one of those boats, and perhaps I would be one day, when I get really old, I would prefer the Nordship over the Sirius: it weights less 900kg and it has more 13.5m2 of sail.

I would be probably old and calmer, but I bet I would want to sail and to motor only when I cannot sail, and with the Nordship I would sail a lot more

Nordship

Nordship

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

nemier said:


> Paulo,
> You are witnessing the dramatic disintegration for my mono love.
> All I can think of is Trimarans now. Small, medium, large, I love them all.
> Spending a lot of time over at SA/MH trying to learn as much as I can. I've signed on to many multihull boards, ordered a lot of books and I'm looking at study plans all the time. Dragonflys, Farriers, Corsairs, Contours, and designs of Chris White, Mike Waters, Kurt Hughes, Dick Newick, Antrim, et al... I'm even looking at Weta's and Windriders for the beach.
> Probaby just a phase I have to work through..
> BTW, thanks for post 1218.


I hope you have the money for them Just invite me for o ride. You don't have to study, just to have the money . I can point you to the right ones, like the Alibi 54. What about 20K speed with 16K wind?

This was the 47, before they upgrade to the 54:



















And this is the mean looking 54, the actual boat:










Alibi - Catamaran manufacturer - Constructeur de catamarans - Catalibi

YouTube - ‪Et si le vrai luxe était la vitesse...‬‏

Of course if you are richer and want to go faster, just buy the Gunboat. An owner had recently entered a cruising Gunboat on the Caribbean 600 and pissed a lot of racing big crews

YouTube - ‪Phaedo Caribbean 600 race‬‏

YouTube - ‪GUNBOAT...‬‏

YouTube - ‪Gunboat 66 Video‬‏

Of course if you dispense all that luxury and satisfies yourself with a good cruising interior, Pogo style, than you don't need all that money and can go
REALLY FAST on the new French madness...but that is for another day

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

let me guess... SIG45?  High Performance Multihull Sailing Yachts | Luxury Catamarans

and here is one for sale in case someone has a spare million  2009 LeBreton Yachts SIG45 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


----------



## PCP

New boat...and new shipyard even if they had build boats for others for more than 40 years.

A surprising boat not because it is very modern but because it is very classical and at the same time modern in what counts: Weight and sailing potential.

It is an Italian boat made by Italia Yachts and looks like....a Finngulf

The 1098 is a classical 37ft with one big wheel, moderate beam (3.65m) reasonable draft (1.90), very light (4500kg) and with a typical B/Dratio (33%) for this kind of boat, all the ballast in a bulb, of course.

The boat has a very nice high quality interior and looks to be a very good compromise between an occasional racer and a cruiser. The 72 m2 of sail will be more than enough to give it a very good turn of speed. Not designed for downwind speed but for overall performance with a special incidence in light wind sailing.

ITALIA YACHTS: Galleria di immagini










The boat can make with 6K wind over 6K speed, with 8k wind over 7k speed and with 12k over 8k speed. A fast boat that even with light winds will be sailing between 7 and 8K and that will rarely need to motor.

The design is from Maurizio Cossutti that among others had recently participated in the Salona 41 design and is specialized in designing race boats.

The boat uses extensivelly carbon reinforcements, high tech building techs and good quality material and the price seems not exaggerated: 139000€



















YouTube - ‪Italia yachts 10.98 - presentazione‬‏

YouTube - ‪Italia yachts 10.98 - presentazione‬‏


----------



## PCP

New movie and Boat test with the Varianta, the 44ft that costs 85 000€ and that is a simplified Hanse 430. The boat test is from the Italian Magazine Solovela and they have tested the boat with 30K winds. Not easy without a furling genoa

For the ones that don't understand Italian, they say very well from the sailing boat potential. They have made over 8K close to the wind and say that the Varianta sails better than the Hanse 430, and the Hanse 430 is one of the fastest mass production cruising boats (excluding cruiser-racers). The boat is lighter and have a true bulbed keel and they say that probably has a better righting moment (longer keel). They really only complaining about the lack of handholds on the interior and in my opinion they are right. You cannot see any place you can grab for support.

There will be some Varianta 44 competting on the "Found the Island" race (big race). We will know what they are worth after but I bet they are going to surprise a lot of people that would hate to be outperformed by a "cheap" boat




























That's not a bad looking boat

Varianta Segelyachten - from Dehler with love

They also have improved the options and now you can have a true freezer and a bow roller for the anchor and an electric windlass. Now if they just offer as an option an anchor locker and a closed locker over the lateral cabin (instead of an open one) I am going start thinking why the hell I will not have one .

YouTube - ‪Varianta 44 - La prova in mare di SoloVela‬‏

Take a look at the Hanse 430 sailing:

YouTube - ‪Sexy new Hanse 430e has a blast‬‏


----------



## PCP

Somewhere along the thread we have talked about the First 35, the little brother of the First 40. I have a movie to share with you guys, one from a race where the First won first place in it's class. The movie was shot from the First and I confess that I am posting it not about the First, not about the race but because it is just beautiful and gives me will to sail, hell, it even give me will to race. Dam I miss sailing

YouTube - ‪First35 Maria at Palby Fyn Cup 2011‬‏


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## EricKLYC

The Varianta 44 is indeed quite a stunt. All tests I have read agree that the boat not only sails very well, but that the concept as a whole also seems to work. 
Of course everything is very basic, the edges are sharp and also the canvas stowage will not last long. 
But let's be fair, the difference between 100.000€ and the standard price for any other yacht this size will give you quite a margin for improving comfort and equipment. Even if it does not seem to make sense to upgrade this boat to a fully equiped luxury yacht. 
I think it will certainly appeal to families with children and charter crews who just want to enjoy sailing for short periods of time. And I also agree with Paulo that the faces on some fancy racers might turn green...

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> I have a movie to share with you guys, one from a race where the First won first place in it's class. The movie was shot from the First and I confess that I am posting it not about the First, not about the race but because it is just beautiful and gives me will to sail, hell, it even give me will to race. Dam I miss sailing


That is a nice video indeed, Paulo!
Did you see the Dragonfly passing? 

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## G1000

From my perspective Varianta44 potential is overvalued. Just take a look at figures. With 104% Genoa, 44>10.7m²/ton vs 430>10.2m²/ton

Varianta44
Displacement: 9.800kg
Ballast: 3.200kg
Main sail: 57.00 m²
Genoa 104%: 48.00 m²

Hanse430
Displacement: 10.900kg
Ballast: 3,200kg
Main sail: 63.00 m²
Genoa 104%: 48.00 m²


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> That is a nice video indeed, Paulo!
> Did you see the Dragonfly passing?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Eric, It looks like a motor boat Really from another championship! I hate the price of those things A friend told me that there is one nearby for charter, in Cascais at 800€.... a day

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

G1000 said:


> From my perspective Varianta44 potential is overvalued. Just take a look at figures. With 104% Genoa, 44>10.7m²/ton vs 430>10.2m²/ton
> 
> Varianta44
> Displacement: 9.800kg
> Ballast: 3.200kg
> Main sail: 57.00 m²
> Genoa 104%: 48.00 m²
> 
> Hanse430
> Displacement: 10.900kg
> Ballast: 3,200kg
> Main sail: 63.00 m²
> Genoa 104%: 48.00 m²


You cannot look at it only like that. Those numbers only say that in light winds the Varianta will be a bit faster but don't say nothing about where the Varianta will be a lot faster: In all other conditions.

The boats have the same ballast and the Varianta has a deeper keel (2.23 to 2.16) but the big difference is the weight, about a ton difference. This means that the Varianta will be a much stiffer boat with a bigger ability to carry sail and that means faster. While racing you don't use the standard sails and the Varianta would be able to carry a bigger geenaker, a bigger spinaker and can carry always more sail than the Hanse.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> The boats have the same ballast but the Varianta has a deeper keel (2.23 to 2.16)


Draft is the same as 430 MkII. Sure it will be faster due to weight difference. Basically 44 is just striped out 430. Hanse 430 - Specs -

But will 44 be any faster than race ready 430? Team Minnic and you can buy this one 2008 Hanse 430E Competition Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Draft is the same as 430 MkII. Sure it will be faster due to weight difference. Basically 44 is just striped out 430. Hanse 430 - Specs -
> 
> But will 44 be any faster than race ready 430?
> 
> Team Minnic and you can buy this one 2008 Hanse 430E Competition Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -


Of course not. But that is a factory racing boat. Nothing to do with the Hanse you can buy. I have talked once with the guy that raced that boat and I know the sort of mods they have done to it, including a completely new keel with 2.3 draft. They say on the add:

*The HANSE 430E COMPETITION has been modified for races with a modified keel and 2,30m draught and a modified rudder. The hull, deck and superstructure have been built in foam and epoxid.*

They say on team Minnic:

*The internationally renowned design team Judel / Vrolijk & Co. (Rolf Vrolijk is responsible, inter alia, for the design of two-time America's Cup winner Alinghi) analyzed in 2007, taking as base the Hanse 430e developed a competition boat. Compared to the series crucial changes were made in yacht mast, keel, rudder, sail area and the bracing and materials . Rudder and mast are made of high-tech material carbon. The interior is made of laminated veneer and sandwich plates. In comparison to the standard production yacht a weight reduction of about 1.3 up to 1,5 tons was achieved and that permitted a 20% increased sail area. The deck layout has been optimized for maneuver for an eight-member crew. Only high-quality hardware is used, both in terms of race and fittings ....*

The reason that factory racing Hanse will be faster than the Varianta is the same that will make Varianta faster than a "normal" Hanse 430: Less weight, same ballast, deeper keel = more righting moment, a stiffer and more powerful boat, able to carry more sail.

Team Minnic

Besides that deep draft keel (close to the one from varianta) that racing Hanse weights 500 kg less than the Varianta. I guess you can still improve Varianta weight for racing striping it a bit but you will never get near the weight of the factory racing Hanse. That is a fast boat that has won some races. Hanse used it to advertise the 430 (as if the two boats were the same ).

But look at the price: That's a 2008 beaten race boat (lot's of races) and it costs almost the double as a new Varianta

2008 Hanse 430E Competition Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -

There are other brands with IMS or ORC race boats derived from the Standard boats but that boats have little in common with the standard boats, except the shape of the hull. That Hanse does not even have a freezer or a gas stove. It is a pure racing boat, not a cruiser racer.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

mitiempo said:


> The Saga 409 is nice but I prefer the older Saga 43 by Bob Perry.


Brian, let me be clear on this. The Saga 409 has a more modern under-body and will be proportionally faster but even if I can appreciate that, I like more the design brief of the 43. Meaning that the 409 is not only modern but it is designed to satisfy main stream cruisers. They are most coastal cruisers and want lots of light and height in the saloon and that means a high free-board and a more "fat" design. That does not mean that the 409 is not a bluewater boat, just that it has some features that were not designed taking that into consideration.

The 43 is an old school boat and it is designed more for speed and bluewater sailing. It is a design brief that you can rarely find these days and the reason is that not only because those boats are expensive to build but also there are few sailors really interested in that program and available to pay the difference and get a boat with less interior space and less light. A modern boat with a modern hull for the same design brief would be for instance the Xc-42.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

Hey Paulo,

You've given us so many boats to drool over and you seem to be enthusiastic with them all. So given half a million$$ (350keuros) give or take, whats top 10 buy on your list? Looks, speed, off-shore, service, wife (kids), re-sale value taken into consideration.

Thanks
Chuck


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Hey Paulo,
> 
> You've given us so many boats to drool over and you seem to be enthusiastic with them all. So given half a million$$ (350keuros) give or take, whats top 10 buy on your list? Looks, speed, off-shore, service, wife (kids), re-sale value taken into consideration.
> 
> Thanks
> Chuck


Chuck,

It does not work that way. I love boats and I look at them not only under my personal perspective (my dream boat for the program I want to have and for my particular tastes) but under a more global perspective where the criteria is the design quality for any relevant program and price target, not only mine.

Probably I can do this quite easily because I am an Architect and I am used to do this all the time. I mean the houses I design, except the one I have design to myself, are not my idea of an ideal house for me (aesthetics and kind of live/program they provide) but someone else's dream. I also have found out with my own experience that our dreams, in what regards a boat or a house, vary with time and there are not a "right" dream. The good boat or the good house are the one that completely satisfies you and what satisfies you may not be what satisfies me.

Independently of any particular kind of dream/program it is possible to associate people in some major groups that have the same vision of live and boating and that want the same program in a boat or in a house. Regarding boats, these groups represents the market. Different builders try to satisfy the needs and dreams of different groups of sailors with appropriately designed boats (of course, each of these groups tend to find that they are the only ones that want the right boat and that the others just don't know nothing about sailboats, but that's another story ).

On this thread I try to talk about new market boats that are interesting not to any particular group but that are interesting to any of those groups, taking into account design quality and the satisfaction of each group dreams and desires.

That's why you hear me talk about a lot of enthusiasm about different boats. I guess that my own professional perspective make me capable of really appreciate boats that don't satisfy my own program but that are incredible good at satisfying other programs.

You have always to take into account that a boat is always a compromise. I would want a boat with a deck saloon view, good looking as a classic boat, with the speed of a racing trimaran, with a seaworthiness of a purposely designed high latitudes blue-water boat, with the interior quality of a top Swedish boat at the price of an inexpensive mass produced boat 

Get my drift? This boat will never exist. It is up to you and to all of us to try to understand what is the (possible) compromise that will satisfy most of our dreams, desires and sailing program and I hope this thread helps with that.

I have said along the thread what is my sailing program and what is my ideal compromise (type of boat) to the money I have. Let me say that unless you have a lot of money, money will always be a central part of the equation and many times discounts over the standard price will decide the choice between similar typed boats. The ideal boat for what I want would not be the same if I had less money neither would be the same If I had more money, but the important is to get a boat, because without a boat there will not be a boating life.

And not even that is true, what is really important is sailing and enjoying cruising or racing. There are many from whom just does not make any sense to have a boat but that loves sailing. If you have only three weeks holidays in a year it would make a lot more sense to charter a boat. But even charter boats can vary a lot. Yes, the fat ones with lot's of space for the ones that give more importance to the live aboard than sailing are the large majority (as the sailors that prefer that even if the say otherwise) but you can also find other types for the ones that gives more importance to sailing.

Regarding your question, put more 100 000€ and for my sail pleasures and cruising program, I would chose a Dragonfly 35, but let me tell you that the sail pleasure in my case counts more than the space provided, not in quality (space quality is important for me), but in m2. But as anyway I don't have the 450 000€ that cost a Dragonfly 35 nor the 300 000€ that costs an used one, that is pretty irrelevant to me, as it should be my own choice to you. Only by a very unprovable accident would your sailing program, sailing tastes and most frequent cruising grounds, be the same.

YouTube - ‪Dragonfly 35 Trimaran‬‏

Dragonfly Trimarans by Quorning Boats of Denmark | DRAGONFLY 35 Presentation

Regards

Paulo


----------



## AlaskaMC

PCP said:


> You have always to take into account that a boat is always a compromise. I would want a boat with a deck saloon view, good looking as a classic boat, with the speed of a racing trimaran, with a seaworthiness of a purposely designed high latitudes blue-water boat, with the interior quality of a top Swedish boat at the price of an inexpensive mass produced boat
> o


I want one of these too! Oh yeah, I will need that on the used market actually at the price of a 1970s beater! 

Seriously though, great post Paulo! We have been looking into our dream boat now for about a year and it has been interesting to see our needs and means really begin to change what our original ideas were. We have now realized that our plan will really be one of coastal cruising, no real "bluewater" for the first few years, likely cold weather for much of the time, and often light or medium winds. In other words, our cruising grounds (Prince William Sound and Resurrection Bay, Alaska) and our available time will make a huge impact on choices. What we want from a boat is so different than much of what we read online where many users are from the east coast USA.

Our next stage is sailing as many boats as possible that are available in our area. See if our reality matches our imagination. This thread has been great in getting the thinking started on what is possible out there. I also agree that for us, the Sirius boats are just amazing. The concept behind the layout of the interior being "connected" to the outside is EXACTLY what we THINK we would want for spending time in the beauty that is Alaska. As we could spend much time inside at anchor, not being down in a cave would be just the thing. Not exactly what we would want in the Bahamas on the other hand.

Thanks for the great thread. I have been lurking for a long time now and have learned so much. We over on this side of the pond wouldn't be exposed to many of these boats without it. Even those of us without the funds to buy a new Sirius or such, it informs about design features that we should hunt out. It lead us to Cooper, CSY, etc that do meet our 2 year budget plans and are available in our area. Keep on keeping on please. Great reading!


----------



## Chimbatete

Paulo,

Thanks for the post, lots of insights as always. You really nailed it down from whats fantasy to whats real and your needs. You're doing us all a favor. Of course as for the dream, the Dragonfly 35 is as good as it gets even at that price except for the room below. Thats why I preferred the DF 1200 but like you said, it needs updating.

First, note that I sail out of Lake Ontario and most of the boats you posted would make sense (cruiser/racer type). In hindsight, looking at boats like the PSC's, IP's, Shannons and older boats like the Tayanas and Crealocks wouldn't make sense.

Heres my wish list,

Sirius 38ds, a bit bigger than the 35. Cant afford it but that cabin view is the greatest for a sailboat this size.

The Luffe 40.04. Thing is fast but looks solid (moreso than the X-yachts) seems ready to cross oceans anytime. Beautiful but also must be unaffordable. 

The new X-Yachts 42c. Ill have to sell my house and proceeds would be the 1st payment of a 6 month payment plan.

The Dragonfly 35. Only if it were bigger, its the perfect sailboat (mono, Multi, tri) even with the price tag.

The Malo 37-41. This would be the sensible choice and it can be had reasonably used. Perfect cruising boat with performance here.

Morris M42. I'll be happy daysailing forever if someone gives it to me. Hands down the most beautiful boat 42ft and under maybe ever. The type of purchase you indulge yourself to by using inheritance money.

But the boat that I can realistically have is the RM 1200. If the build quality is there, with its price, what more could you ask for? Beauty, Fast, Fun, wife, kids, liveaboard, regattas, coastal, even ocean if that becomes a reality. The interior is a love it of hate it and ive seen some set ups, its awesome!

Chuck


----------



## PCP

AlaskaMC said:


> I want one of these too! Oh yeah, I will need that on the used market actually at the price of a 1970s beater!
> 
> Seriously though, great post Paulo! We have been looking into our dream boat now for about a year and it has been interesting to see our needs and means really begin to change what our original ideas were. We have now realized that our plan will really be one of coastal cruising, no real "bluewater" for the first few years, likely cold weather for much of the time, and often light or medium winds. In other words, our cruising grounds (Prince William Sound and Resurrection Bay, Alaska) and our available time will make a huge impact on choices. What we want from a boat is so different than much of what we read online where many users are from the east coast USA.
> 
> Our next stage is sailing as many boats as possible that are available in our area. See if our reality matches our imagination. This thread has been great in getting the thinking started on what is possible out there. I also agree that for us, the Sirius boats are just amazing. The concept behind the layout of the interior being "connected" to the outside is EXACTLY what we THINK we would want for spending time in the beauty that is Alaska. As we could spend much time inside at anchor, not being down in a cave would be just the thing. Not exactly what we would want in the Bahamas on the other hand.
> 
> Thanks for the great thread. I have been lurking for a long time now and have learned so much. We over on this side of the pond wouldn't be exposed to many of these boats without it. Even those of us without the funds to buy a new Sirius or such, it informs about design features that we should hunt out. It lead us to Cooper, CSY, etc that do meet our 2 year budget plans and are available in our area. Keep on keeping on please. Great reading!


Alaska, Thanks for your nice words.

There is not by accident that the type of boats that you are looking for are almost all made in the North of Europe (cold climate), I mean, the ones that are still in production. I could post more 2 or 3 boats that you would find interesting but that have in common to be very expensive and almost impossible to find on the used market.

Instead I am going to post about a boat that I like a lot (have been inside a couple of times) and a boat you can find on the used market at about 150 000€ (2003/2004). That includes VAT and I think you can recover VAT (17%) if you buy it in Europe.

It does not look like but this is a very seaworthy boat and strangely a relatively fast boat especially if there are medium to strong winds. And I say strangely because it does not look the kind of boat that can do well on offshore races but I know that some cruisers had managed some quite amazing results with it.

I had read some tests on this boat and the results were also surprising. I would say the boat had surprised the testers. I am talking about tests on magazines that I consider reliable like the British YachtingMonthly and the German "Yacht".

So if this one has enough space for you (it has a very good storage for a 35ft) I would recommend that you have a good look at it and perhaps a test sail. Even if it is now too expensive in some years the price is going to come down...but not much because these are great quality boats and the value on the used market is high

As a bonus you have the swinging keel (a ballasted one) that permits this boat to seat on the sand and more important, at least for me, it can anchor really close to land and that permits a much better protection in a blow.













































































































Southerly 35RS
Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

I'd love to see what a Pogo looks like. Can someone post a pic or a link please?


----------



## Faster

Voiles et Voiliers : CroisiÃ¨re - Feuilletage - Croisière / Essai : Course croisière - Pogo 10.50 (Structures / Finot Conq)

Bob.. PCP has indexed large parts of this thread at Post#1... this link is from page 3, there may be others.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Paulo,

That Southerly is a great boat! Exactly what features are getting our attention up here now. 

Your point on the northern lat companies is sure true. We are now finding that companies from Northern Europe and the Pacific NW and Canada are what attracts. The advise to buy for where you will sail consistently, rather than where you will sail occasionally is very good indeed. We will charter when going to warmer waters.

Thanks for the additional boat to dream about.


----------



## PCP

Last edition of Voile magazine has a comparative test between the Oceanis 50 and the Sense 50, both boats at the water at the same time. It is more than time to post about the new Benetau Sense line . I have been avoiding it because it is just not the kind of boat that I am even remotely interested and because I had not enough data to make an opinion. Now, after reading some boat tests ans after that comparative I think I have.

Why a post? Well, it is an interesting boat that represents a all new concept, a boat that is designed primarily to live aboard (no I don't mean while sailing ) and occasionally sailed.

Let's see what is that knew concept all about: It's about an open plan living saloon, It's about space and the continuity of space between the interior and the outside, it is about an open huge cockpit it is about sailing with 10º of heel and it's about enjoying life and not necessarily enjoying sailing.

For that the boat has an 60Open kind of huge transom, two rudders and no back cabins. These limits the number of cabins but permits an huge cockpit an a big saloon. The two rudders and large transom would make this boat a nightmare to dock, so the invented that Dock and Go system that will make that easy.

This boat was designed to a growing market and is going to be a success. It was designed for the ones that want firstly a good interior, secondly a good deck and third a boat that does not heels much and fourth a boat that can sail, and it makes that very well, taking into consideration that was not a first priority. So let's look at that first priority:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/sense_50_s_.swf

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/sense_50-l_.swf


















































































So have they succeed that interior? Yes no doubt. That's what many people were looking for: The space interior of a cat in a mono-hull, a small luxury loft that can be moved from marina to marina, or for the more extremists, that can be enjoyed in a nice protected anchorage.

And now about sailing? Let me tell you that I end up very disgusted with that comparative test: 17 pages and almost all they can do is describing the boat and show photos of it. People have eyes, they can see the boat in boat shows, what they cannot do is to see how it sails!!!

But maybe after all they are right, sailing is not the priority here.

Regarding to sailing, it is better than what I would expect (and I would say that is the opinion of all the testers on the tests I have read).

On 17 pages they say only about sailing:

On engine:

With the same engine (75hp) the Sense make 7K at 2400rpm and 8.5k at 3400rpm (full throttle). The Oceanis 50 makes at the same rpm : 7.1K and 7.9K.

Sailing:

Close to the wind with 20K wind the Sense goes a bit faster and points less to the wind. They say it has to do with the sails, a 105% genoa on the Sense that they can keep and a bigger genoa on the Oceanis that they have to roll, giving the sail a bad shape. With 18k wind and a better shaped genoa the Oceanis makes almost the same speed as the Sense, points better, can keep a better course and is more agreeable to sail, implying that the Sense is not very agreeable to sail on this sailing position.

With the Geenaker on open courses the boats go at the same speed but they say that the genoa on the Oceanis is not from that boat, just a borrowed one, giving the impression that with an appropriated sail the Oceanis would go faster.

What are the speeds and the angle against the wind...they don't say but they say that the Sense 43 (also tested at the same time) close to the wind has a better performance than the Sense 50 and can point higher. Again they don't tell what is the performance but they say the boat is much more balance at the wheel.

I had to look at another test, this one on the Sense 43 to see what is its performance clolse to the wind, this one on the Magazine Bateau: They say that the Sense 43 with 26K of true wind can make 6.7K at 40º to the wind. Not properly a good performance. Downwind they say the boat is a lot better that can carry all the sail, it is very stable and make 10.5K. That is a good performance for this kind of boat.

On the YachtingWorld test they talk also a lot about the boat interior and little about sailing. They say that the boat is difficult to keep on a groove, that does not like to heel (difficulty in steering) and that in a force 5 to 6 Beufort (+-20K) the boat can make over 7k at 50/55º of the wind.

So it seems that the Sense series does not make a big difference from the Oceanis series in what regards sailing, a bit worse upwind, a bit better downwind. It is a pity all that weight (14 150Kg). With a slimming cure this could be a fast boat downwind. Just to compare, the Cigale 16 (52ft) a bigger boat, (posted recently) weights less 3 150kg. The cigalle has much more finner entries but has a not dissimilar transom. With that weight is not expected to see the Sense planning even if it should be a very stable boat downwind.

It makes however a difference in price. With French taxes (17%) the Oceanis 50 costs 328 800€ and the Sense 50 costs 484 500€.

YouTube - ‪Beneteau Sense 50 video - Yachting World‬‏





































Berret Racoupeau Yacht Design - Naval Architect - Bénéteau - Sense 50


----------



## PCP

Pag 104 post 1035 were posted the first Xp 44 pictures.

Now the first video. Hard to believe but the boat looks even better on the movie 

Absolutely beautiful, look at the grin on the face of the guy that it is steering the boat and look how effortlessly the boat does 9K with a bit more than 13K wind. What a boat!!!!!

Performance-Cruiser: RÃ¼ckbesinnung auf den Sport - YACHT-TV | YACHT.DE


----------



## G1000

And hard to believe, but X-Yachts hulls will be made in Poland, plus R&D center...

The facility's annual turnover, with its 100% of production destined for export, is estimated to reach EUR60 million (PLN250 million). The facility is situated within the Suwałki Special Economic Zone (the Gołdap subzone). The company, which has already started co-operation with local subcontractors, will invest EUR15 million and the project is expected to generate 80 jobs.

Danish X-Yachts invests in Poland - Website of Trade and Investment Promotion Sections of Polish Embassies


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> And hard to believe, but X-Yachts hulls will be made in Poland, plus R&D center...
> 
> The facility's annual turnover, with its 100% of production destined for export, is estimated to reach EUR60 million (PLN250 million). The facility is situated within the Suwałki Special Economic Zone (the Gołdap subzone). The company, which has already started co-operation with local subcontractors, will invest EUR15 million and the project is expected to generate 80 jobs.
> 
> Danish X-Yachts invests in Poland - Website of Trade and Investment Promotion Sections of Polish Embassies


That are news to me . But I understand the need. Denmark is one of the most expensive countries in Europe and building a boat there has to be expensive. Let's hope that can bring X-yachts prices down.

Poland is not new to Yacht building and they have been improving quality. They have a good workmanship. One of their brands, perhaps the best known, the Delphia, has released recently a boat that has a place on this thread, the new 47. Competes on the market with Jeanneau, Oceanis and Dufour and the quality is not inferior. It has a better B/D and it is a stiffer boat....and also a very well designed boat.

Take a look:














































Regards

Paulo


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## WDS123

agreed the Polish yards are rapidly improving their fit and finish quality - will start to give the German & French yards a run in a few years


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> Poland is not new to Yacht building and they have been improving quality. They have a good workmanship.


Take a look, first hull was spotted (April 7th) in Klaipeda on a way to ferry and shipped to Denmark XP-44 in Klaipeda. As far as I understood this route will be used to ship to Fredericia, this port just 55 km from home yard. My guess it's Hanse way, most parts will be produced in Poland and then assembled in home yard to claim "made in Denmark". The only problem X-Yachts won't be able to "import" cheap Poles so massively to their yard as Hanse does, Greifswald is just approx. 100km from Polish border. So eventually more X-Yachts parts will be assembled in Poland to cut costs.


----------



## PCP

Yes, and they are already cutting costs:

*the first 10 boats offered for a modest 284 000 EUR free of VAT.*

and it is working:

*The series production is already well underway and the first nine - of the 23 pre-sold units - are all Expected To Be Delivered to Their Worldwide new owners before the summer holidays in late July*.

s/y Piranija » Xp-44 KlaipÄ-doje!

It seems that I am not the only one that likes this boat a lot. 23 boats sold before anyone has saw it is amazing on these difficult days, specially considering that it is not the typical cruiser. It seems that there are an increasing number of sailors looking for performance cruisers. Market is being split in two ways: the ones that want a boat to cruise/race and for the pleasure of sailing and the ones that want mostly a floating home that can sail and be moved around.

Let's see if they can maintain quality. This practice of manufacturing in other European countries it's common policy in the auto market where cars are manufactured a bit everywhere in Europe (components) and then assembled in several different countries. Nobody cares where it is made because quality control is very high everywhere.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> Let's see if they can maintain quality. This practice of manufacturing in other European countries it's common policy in the auto market where cars are manufactured a bit everywhere in Europe (components) and then assembled in several different countries. Nobody cares where it is made because quality control is very high everywhere.


Quality control will be major challenge. One more interesting picture. Could it be one from new factory in Poland? I guess it is, on the first boat hull windows are glued in, on the middle one interior parts are installed. Looks like full assembly line...


----------



## blt2ski

Not a lot of info, but how about a new and updated Santa Cruz 52 by Farr!
Farr Yacht Sales-An international yacht brokerage firm for grand-prix, racing and performance cruising sailboats.

marty


----------



## PCP

Yes, looks like a beautiful boat but I think they have some problems producing and selling the boats (Santa Cruz). I have posted about the Santa Cruz 43 way back, before the Xp 44 and I have not yet seen a real boat. The site has no pictures of a boat (only designs) and I cannot find any picture of the boat on the internet. I don't think they have made one 

Santa Cruz Yachts - Velocity Matters

On their site they don't talk about the 52 and on the Farr site it is advertised on Farr Yacht Sales?!!! Are Farr advertising a boat plan that can be made by Santa Cruz? Can someone more familiar with this kind of business practices explain this to me? Seems kind of odd.




























Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

The SC43 From what I have heard, has not been made. Farr may be the designer of the SC52, trying to get SC to build it?!?!? anyway, not sure which is which.....

Then the SC37 has not taken off like they hoped either. Then again, C&C has a 131 design, no takers for 3 yrs. Taten came out with a 4000, which is the C&C121 hull, with a differen keel/deck interior and rigging setup........

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> ...Then again, C&C has a 131 design, no takers for 3 yrs. Taten came out with a 4000, which is the C&C121 hull, with a differen keel/deck interior and rigging setup........
> 
> Marty


Hey Marty need your help here. I have been looking at the new Tartan 4000 and I have many doubts.

Let's see if I can understand it rightly: The new Tartan 4000 is going to replace the Tartan 4100, a 1996 Tim Jacket designed boat, and is going to use a 1999 designed hull, also by Tim Jacket?

They advertise in Tartan top of the shelve materials and building techniques:

*"The Tartan 4000 design embodies all of the recent Tartan leading technologies and advanced performance cruising conveniences. CCR (Cruise Control Rig), carbon fiber mast, boom and rudder, infused BPA epoxy composite hull and deck, all lead low center of gravity bulb keels give cruising performance advantages that other builders cannot match". *

and then offer a 40ft boat that in its more oriented performance version (fin keel) weights 8892 kg when the 1999 C&C 121, that has a good cruising interior, weights 6622Kg? More 2 200Kg over a 12 years old boat, and pretends to be a cruising performance boat? A Jeanneau 409 weights 7450kg!!!!

Looking at the old Tartan 4100 I can see a Classical designed boat that don't pretend to be a performance boat but just a fast modern Classic, a timeless design and a good looking boat to my eyes:




























Looking to the new Tartan 4000 I see a boat that looks like a 90's North European performance cruiser (but more beamier):




























And amazingly the 12 years older C&C 121 (that has the same hull) looks a lot more modern and nicer to me:




























So Marty, give me a help here to understand better the US sailboat market. What is the sailing market that they pretend to target with an expensive boat that they advertise as a performance cruiser, but that is in fact heavy and beamy and looks like a 15 year luxury old boat? Do you think that such market exists?

I would rather have the old Tartan 4100, at least I would have a very nice good looking boat

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

Paulo,

Not sure what the thinking i either, other than someone is making MAY mistakes at the company! Shoot, a Catalina is probably better designed etc froma price point, maybe even Hunter, at least neither of them tries to say the boat is NOT what it is not!

Marty


----------



## PCP

First major race for the Dehler 41, The North Sea race, run with stormy weather, strong winds and a lot of upwind sailing. No the Dehler did not win but has made a great race. On IRC1 the winner was a Ker 46, a racing boat, followed by a Salona 42 and the Dehler 41. But as usual I am more interested in real performance than handicapped performance and regarding that the Dehler even beat the older Salona and both boats made a hell of a race. Let me post some results in real time just to be able to compare:

Kerr 46 - 20:10:55

Dehler 41 - 23:48:20

Salona 42 - 23:57:59

Class 40 - 1Day 00:05:48

Class 40 - 1Day 03:20:56

J -133 - 1Day 00:42:42

J 109 - 1Day 03:07:42

J 109 - 1Day 03:22:32

Sidney 39 - 1Day 01:04:03

Dehler 39 - 1Day 04:11:25

Dufour 45e - 1Day 01:51:59

X-43 - 1Day 04:09:27

S&S 41 - 1Day 04:50:01

Swan 44 - 1Day 05:39:07

To give a measure of how good those times are, just compare it with the time of a Swan 42 (racing) - 23:33:47 and with the performance of another recent Swan a 45 (and one of the fastest cruiser-racers around) -23:18:07.

Boats like The Salona 42 (or 41), Dehler 41 or First 40 are the boats to beat on offshore races when things get though and a lot of upwind sailing is requeired

Sailing Results

Take a look at the weather (movie)

North Sea Regatta - 11 May 2010 - Vuurschepenrace on Vimeo

North Sea Race 2011 was heavy test - Delta Lloyd North Sea Regatta


----------



## BEENONLANDTOOLONG

*Do classic looks abovethe waterline,but*

modern technical under the waterline count ? If so the HOEK boats should be included I would think or at least some of them,maybe.
























Fin keel with bulbous ballast....Just a thought


----------



## PCP

BEENONLANDTOOLONG said:


> modern technical under the waterline count ? If so the HOEK boats should be included I would think or at least some of them,maybe.
> ..


Maybe??? you are mad? of course Hoek designed boats have a place on this thread . By the way welcome and thanks for posting those nice pictures of Braveheart.

I believe that way back on this thread there were posted some Hoek designed boats. Some confusion here regarding the boats that are of interest for this thread. This thread is about interesting sailboats and an interesting sailboat is not necessarily only a modern looking one. Traditional boats, Classics, modern classics have a place here and in what regards modern classics it is difficult to find someone better than Andre Hoek. I find many of his designs absolutely beautiful and I am glad that there are some billionaires with the good taste of preferring something like that instead of one of those monstrous motorboats. At least they use their money to create beauty, beauty that we all can enjoy.

He has created also some modern good looking yachts like this one:










Has some fabulous boats derived from traditional boats, pilot boats in particular:





































And many beautiful classical boats, some of them with very modern under-body and deep ballasted bulbed keels:

http://www.hoekdesign.com/images/news/skylge-nomination-BI-07.pdf































































































































Hoek Design

Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

Incredible - really nice!
For me please the Lionheart


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## BEENONLANDTOOLONG

PCP said:


> Maybe??? you are mad?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I have been accused of worse things I promise you. 
I did not read through the whole thread so I did not see the HOEK designs before listed.
Thank you for all the links and pictures , they are a beautiful thing to see up close.
If I can talk my wife into it next year we will be at Falmouth Harbor and I will buy a better camera and have a multitude of photos.
J Class Regatta - Falmouth 2012


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## PCP

We will be waiting . The J class are incredible boats. They talk about Volvo's being scary in bad weather. Look at Velsheda going upwind at 11K...and the sea is not that rough Better not slip

YouTube - ‪J Class Yacht in big seas‬‏

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

G1000, this is the fastest cruising boat I know of:

YouTube - ‪Lalou Roucayrol sur le Multi 50 2Ã¨me de La Route du Rhum 16/11/2010‬‏

Hey Nemier, pay attention

Yes that is a race trimaran (second on the last Route du Rhum) but Lalou, the skipper had decided to make a small series of cruising boats with the same molds. He says:

*After sailing for twenty years on racing Multihull, sometimes with a relative comfort but with great sailing performance I have notice that the pleasure of that performance was sometimes spoiled by the stress of sailing to the limit these capricious and nervous boats and during my lonely nights at the ruder I started to think about a different vision of multihull sailing. A vision that included the pleasure of sailing with friends and sharing with them the pleasures of fast sailing, without stress in a seaworthy, fast, comfortable and simple boat.

My choice was quickly focused on a Trimaran because of its versatility in all winds, its better behavior in rough weather and its superior performance / security compared with a cruising catamaran".*

Lalou-Multi 50 : une série de trimarans tirant la quintessence de l'expérience de la course océanique et la mettant à la portée d'amateurs éclairés.

The French are exited about it .

Kind of a Pogo, but instead of a Class40 with a cruising interior, a 50class race trimaran with a cruising interior and that means way faster, I mean, not faster than a Class 40, but as faster or faster than an Open 60

YouTube - ‪Depuis les bateaux Route du Rhum 11.11.2010‬‏



















Lalou-Multi 50 : une série de trimarans tirant la quintessence de l'expérience de la course océanique et la mettant à la portée d'amateurs éclairés.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Aac

Did a search and did'nt see the Ker 39 production cruiser racer mentioned Ker Associates Ltd
Ker Associates Ltd

Length overall, hull ........................... 11.85m
Beam moulded ................................. 3.52m
Draft ................................................ 2.55m
Displacement (IRC Empty Weight) ..... 5.95 tonnes
Price starts at 258000 Euro









The Reichel/Pugh designed Mcr35 is another production boat that is at the top IMHO McConaghy Boats

LOA	10.88 M
Beam	3.70 M
Draft	2.50 M
Disp.	4,025 Kg
Prices start at 279000 USD

























Both boats have good ballast to weight ratio.


----------



## PCP

Aac said:


> Did a search and did'nt see the Ker 39 production cruiser racer mentioned ...


You mean you don't find the mentioned Ker 46 and find the Ker 39 cruiser-racer?

You have not find the Ker 46 because it is a pure racer and made in very small numbers, not a production boat. That one (Tonerre...) was built in 2009 boat and is a very fast ocean racer:




























The Tonerre was built by salthouse boat builders:

Salthouse Boatbuilders, New Zealand, building high performance race boats, cruising yachts and launches, commercial vessels, refit work and slip services

Thanks for posting about the ker 39 and the Mc35. They are very interesting boats and I will post more about them. They are on the limit of what we can call production boats. Both are expensive boats and cruiser racers with what looks like a nice interior.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

*Rm 1260*

Paulo,

I just got some info for the new RM 1260 lol. Not sure you have posted this.

Heres some improvements from the 1200.

*Objective: to make RM1260, the most attractive 40' of the European market:*

- Very elegant lines,
- High Performance: hull, sail plan, weight, stiffness.
- Optimized ergonomics: position of the winches, twin steering wheel, focused sail plan.
- Immense internal volume, extended roof.
- Brightness and exceptional visibility.

*The main changes compared to RM1200:*

- More modern and more powerful hull.
- Elongated roof, mast on the roof, more balanced sail plan.
-Two steering wheel (option tiller).
- More volume in the saloon and improved height.
- Forward cabin enlarged, improved height, wider bed.
- Optimized brightness: lateral and frontal view, windscreen without interruption.
- Technical room enlarged, possibility of additional cabin.
- Modern design, sharp and very pure lines.
- Outside visibility, from the chart-table.

*Figures:*
- Length of hull: 11.99 m
- Length overall (with bow pulpit): 12,60 m
- Length waterline: 11,68 m
- Width: 4.35 m
- Sail area: 98m2
- Draft: twin-keel: 1.85 m; mono-keel: 2.20 m

*Launch Price:*

Standard model, without options: 191,827 ex vat.
This price will be applied to initial orders; it will likely be increased without notice.

*Availability:*

The first RM1260 will be delivered in March 2012; we plan to deliver four boats before
summer 2012.

Note the tiller option. 
So whats that Paulo? approx $425k all tricked out


----------



## myocean

Regarding the RM I am still missing the displacement and the polar.
Polar should be available in 9 months only they told me.


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> Regarding the RM I am still missing the displacement and the polar.
> Polar should be available in 9 months only they told me.


Yes, they tell everything except the weight and ballast. They give 98m2 of sail and that is not bad for a 41ft boat but the weight is very important as it is the sensations you got at the wheel.

Take a look at their last one, the 1060: the weight seemed fantastic and the boat should be a knock out. Well it sails very well but it seems that the sensations at the tiller are not that good and the performance seems not to be in accordance with the announced weight.

I think that RM has clearly understood that performances are very important for the ones that are interested in their boats. They have made recently for a Swedish client a 1350 performance: Carbon mast, increased sail area (112 to 125m2), premium sails. The boat can make 10.5K with 12k wind.










I think they are going to introduce a performance option in their line. They are working in a 1060 performance with more sail area, top cruising sails and a carbon rig (mono Keel and twin rudders). I think that this is going in the direction at least some of their clients want, the problem is what would be the cost? Can they make it affordable?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Aac said:


> Did a search and did'nt see the Ker 39 production cruiser racer mentioned Ker Associates Ltd
> Ker Associates Ltd
> 
> Length overall, hull ........................... 11.85m
> Beam moulded ................................. 3.52m
> Draft ................................................ 2.55m
> Displacement (IRC Empty Weight) ..... 5.95 tonnes
> Price starts at 258000 Euro
> 
> View attachment 8232
> 
> 
> ...


I had an idea that we had already talked about the Ker 39, but I didn't remember making a post about it....it was because it was MyOcean that posted about it on post 676 (I have replied on post 678):



myocean said:


> ..
> Isn't this one a cool machine? Very much a racer...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Ker 39"


That boat is such a good cruiser racer that it deserves some more information. First, I should say it is not a new design...but is still winning as it was a new one

Jason Ker's team introduce their new Thai-built 39 footer | The Daily Sail

Specialists set up in Thailand to offer custom and semi custom build | The Daily Sail

Than I should say that this one is a real winner, top of the crop and with a nice interior too....but also that will cost probably more than the price Aac has posted (probably an old price). The basic version without sails or electronics cost in 2007 was 250 000€. Pretty sure it is more expensive know.

Regarding cruising the boat has a 2.55m keel and notwithstanding its nice interior that limits the options. Regarding racing, that's another story and I am not talking only about compensated time, that boat with a narrow hull, 95m2 of sail to 6T and a big righting moment (2.55m draft and a lot of ballast) has a IRC TCC of 1,126, a number that is typical of a bigger boat, for instance a J133 has 1,109, a J122 1,092 an Elan 410 1,074 a First 40 1,085 an Archimbault A40RC 1,085, a Swam 51 1,086 and even a racer with a much poor interior like the x 41 has "only" 1,117.

Of course the boat could be rated too high and have difficulty in beating the handicap....but that is not the case. Look at this list of winnings :

Ker Design




























So if you have the money want to win races and leave bigger boats behind and occasionally want to cruise with the family, that's your boat. If you want to cruise, have fun and leave everybody behind and a 2.6m draft is not a problem to you, well this boat may just fit your bill, providing you can afford it. It is a stunningly beautiful boat

Ker Associates Ltd

Ker Associates Ltd

http://www.ker39.com/


----------



## tdw

Paulo,
Maybe the Swiss client does not care ? Great looking boat.

Top marks for the Hoek thread but if I had the dosh this is where I'd go ...




























though I suspect I'm repeating myself .....


----------



## PCP

Hey Andrews,

Yes I love the Bestevaer but that particular boat is a no no. You should not make an aluminum boat with a traditional design and let it unpainted. That's a contradiction, a wrong play. That 45fter boat looks like a war machine, not a beautiful traditional boat

Look at the original design: The aluminum is painted










Some time ago you have posted a bigger one, a 54 if I am not wrong, painted and so much more beautiful:










Nothing wrong with the design of the 45, something wrong with the owner of that boat that probably have insisted in not having is boat paint. I know that not only aluminum boats don't need to be painted as they can have even some advantages in not being paint (unless the paint job is a very expensive and very good one) but one thing is functionality other are aesthetics and in what regards that, for letting it naked you have to have a modern functional design, not a classical design or a traditional one.

That plain view aluminum looks well on a Cigale or on a German 39 but not on a traditional boat like the Bestevaer. By the way do you know the German 39?

It is a great design, you know it is not easy to make a 45ft deck saloon look good, but a 39? that's another story and the German 39 is not only a great boat, fast and seaworthy, but it also looks right, with an integrated space for the tender and again, that's amazing on a 39ft boat. It is designed by a great South African Architect, Berckemeyer. Take a look at his designs, you are going to be surprised:

Berckemeyer Yacht Design

Regarding the German 39, that is made in Germany in a small scale production facility, the boat only weights 7.5T, has 2X900L of water ballast, 2.4T of ballast on a bulbed lifting keel. That bulb when in sailing position is really down at 2.5m contributing (with the water ballasts) to a huge initial stability and providing a good AVS and a good reserve stability. When looking for a place to anchor the boat has only 1.1m draft (keel up) and that permits it to get really close to land and permits to get a better shelter.










German Yachtbau

The German 39 has 97,5m2 of sail and that with a displacement of 7.5T makes it a fast boat and a very fast one with lots of wind. That huge stability permits it to maintain all its sail up when others have already reefed.










Take a look at the polar speed:

http://www.german-yachtbau.de/files/german39c/Polardiagramm/VPP_Polardiagramm_GE39.pdf

This is an easy 8/9K boat that with over 20K will go easily on two figure numbers. It was the kind of stern (with two rudders) that will provide a safe and easy downwind ride, even with lot's of wind.































































































































Andrew, this is one of my favorite, it has the right size the flexibility of an acrobat and I would probably have one if I could. The boat is not even expensive considering the Aluminum, the type of keel, the rig, the water ballasts and the good quality interior, but all that quality stuff is expensive, so it is clearly out of my budget....but what a boat

Regards

Paulo


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## nemier

PCP said:


> G1000, this is the fastest cruising boat I know of:
> YouTube - ‪Lalou Roucayrol sur le Multi 50 2ème de La Route du Rhum 16/11/2010‬‏
> 
> Hey Nemier, pay attention
> 
> Yes that is a race trimaran (second on the last Route du Rhum) but Lalou, the skipper had decided to make a small series of cruising boats with the same molds.
> Regards
> Paulo


I'm always paying attention to anything you post Paulo!
Heck, I've even got the kids talking about you when we're all around the table at meal times! :laugher

I'm hanging around MH4U forum lately, trying to learn as much as I can over there. But regularly pop in over here to catch up!

My internet connection also not so good. I'm still offshore India right now, this was this morning's forecast:

MARINE FORECAST - BOMBAY HIGH NORTH 
ISSUED 06:00 HRS SATURDAY 11 JUN 2011 
Risk of showers/thundery showers giving temporarily strong gusts and rough seas. Heavy rain/showers at times. Strong gale to storm force winds with very high sea/swell. 
WARNING : 
Low pressure area over east-central Arabian sea is centered approximately at 19.3N, 070.4E and is likely to intensify. Pressure gradient is strong over your area. Strong gale to storm force winds will prevail over your location. Please see the Deep Low Pressure Warning forwarded separately. 
SYNOPSIS : 
0600 HRS SAT 11 JUN ~ 0600 HRS SUN 12 JUN 
WIND : S-SW 42-52, increasing S-SW 48-58 later Saturday, decreasing S-SW 35-45 by Sunday 
morning. Wind may gust over 45 in/vicinity of rain/showers 
SEA/SWELL : 20-30, increasing 25-35 at times. Temporarily rough in/vicinity of rain/showers 
VISIBILITY : 2-4, reducing further in rain/showers 
WEATHER : Cloudy. Risk of rain/showers

Connection sh1tty and feeling sick..


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## nemier

I'm not sailing right now - I wish! I'm just at work.
In Feb, I was in the North Sea, that was even worse!
I run Diving Support Vessels, this one is relatively small at 78m x 20.
In this crap, the bigger the better! uke


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## PCP

To the attention of new members viewing this thread:

To avoid repetitions of posts about the same boat I have on the first page of this thread a list with the boats posted. That do not mean that you should not post about a boat that has been posted, you may add more information and that is always interesting, just that you should take into consideration what already has been posted, to avoid repetitions.

It is a fact that the search engine does not work properly on this thread and that's a shame. I have tried to maintain updated the list of boats posted but it is not easy, it's boring and takes a lot of time. The list was updated today till page 80.

I have created a new category for Traditional and Classic boats. This is the list:

*THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:*

*Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out).*

*Modern boat designs and modern one off, if interesting.*

*Classical boats and traditional boats.*

*Small cruisers (less than 35ft)*

*Seezunge 27ft*: PG1-PT9

*Hanse 325*: PG19-PT185;

*Presto 30 :* 33-326; 33-327; 34-331; 34-333; 55-543; 55-544;

*Tess Yachts*: 37-366; 38-373;

*Tess 28 Magnum*: 37-369; 38-371;

*Delphia 28*: 38-373;

*Vancouver 27/28* : 42-412; 72-717;

*Cruisers between 35ft and 49ft*


*Catalina 355 :* 31-306;

*RM sailboats*: PG5-PT41; 5-42

*RM1050*: PG5-PT46; 5-47; 5-48;

*RM 1060*: PG8-PT77; 8-78; 8-79; 8-80; 9-81; 30-295; 40-400; 79-786;

*RM 1200*: PG9-PT84; 9-85; 19-184; 20-191; 20-192; 41-404; 42-414; 42-418; 43-425; 43-426; 69-688;

*RM 1350*: PG9-PT82; 55-549; 95-943;

*Morris Yachts*: PG7-PT61

*Bavaria 36*: PG19-PT188; 19-190; 20-196;

*Bavaria 40*: PG10-PT95; 28-278; 29-281; 29-282; 29-283; 29-286; 32-316; 36-356; 51-502; 51-507; 52-518; 53-527; 53-532;

*Bavaria 40s*: 69-685; 78-775;

*Bavaria 45*: PG10-PT96; 19-190;

*Rustler Yachts*: PG11-PT104;

*Jeanneau 409*: PG11-PT103: 11-106; 30-298; 30-299; 36-356; 51-502; 51-504; 51-505; 51-509; 52-513; 52-514; 52-515; 52-516; 53-527; 54-532; 57-564; 57-570; 58-571; 58-580; 59-581; 59-583; 59-585; 62-614; 74-739; 91-906;

*Jeanneau 439*: 40-396; 40-397; 59-584; 59-585; 96-956;

*Hanse Yachts*: 16-154; 16-156; 16-158;

*Hanse 400*: 81-804;

*Bluewater cruising yachts*: 21-206

*Beneteau Oceanis 37 :* 31-306; 31-308; 31-309; 32-314; 55-541;

*XC 38*: 36-356; 96-954;

*Diva 38*: 39-386;

*Diva 35*: 40-391;

*Dufour 405*: 62-614;

*Defline 43*: 63-622

*Walkabout 43*: 93-923; 93-925; 93-927;

*Small performance cruisers (less than 35ft)*


*Performance 32ft test*: 29-87;

*Sun Fast 3200*: PG4-PT33; 4-34; 4-36; 30-293;

*Elan 210*: 70-691; 70-696; 78-779; 79-781;

*Elan 310*: PC7-PT64; 7-69; 8-71; 36-356; 41-408;

*Quest 33*: PG7-PT62

*Olea 32*: 25-243; 25-245;

*First 27.7*: 38-373; 38-380; 39-382;

*First 30*: 30-295; 39-356; 41-408; 55-545; 55-546;

*Comet 26*: 34-340; 35-345; 35-350; 36-353;

*Pacer 30*: 36-357;

*Django 7.7*: 40-399;

*Vivace/Evosion 34*: 45-442; 45-446; 45-445; 45-446; 45-447; 45-448; 45-449; 45-450; 46-458; 46-460;

*Finn Flyer 34*: 46-451; 46-453; 60-593;

*Salona 34*: 46-457;

*Heol 7.4*: 63-621; 63-622;

*Azuree 33*: 87-867; 91-902; 91-904;

*JPK 10.10*: 88-877 ; 88-880; 89-883;

*Performance cruisers (between 35ft and 49ft)*

*Pogo 10.50*: PG2-PT20; 3-27; 3-28; 3-30; 4-35; 5-50; 6-51; 6-52; 6-60; 11-101; 11-107; 11-110; 43-425; 44-440; 87-861; 87-867;

*Pogo 12.50*: PG13-PT125; 20-198; 20-199; 22-214; 27-264; 27-265; 27-269; 32-317; 32-319; 43-425; 43-426; 43-428; 44-432; 44-437; 44-439; 55-546; 55-547; 82-812; 84-831; 87-870;

*Este 40*: 89-890; 90-893; 90-899;

*A35*: PG5-PT42; 5-44; 66-660;

*A40RC*: 92-914;

*Hammerhead 35*: 64-645

*Opium 39*: PG5-PT42; 9-85; 9-89; 13-125; 22-220; 22-221; 43-426; 55-547; 86-857;

*Aerodyne 35*: PG7-PT62

*Elan 350*: PG7-PT64; 13-24; 13-126; 13-127; 13-128; 14-132; 18-178; 26-255; 36-356; 40-398; 41-405; 57-564; 59-589; 60-591; 72-711; 73-724; 74-738;

*Elan 380*: 23-223; 25-249; 26-256; 40-398; 59-589; 97-962;

*Elan 410:* 32-316; 79-784;

*JPK 110*: PG9-PT85; 10-91

*Olea 44*: PG10-PT100; 27-268;

*Olea Yachts*: 25-247;

*Dufour 40e*: Pg13-Pt125; 32-316; 55-547; 56-558; 56-559; 57-561; 57-562; 57-563; 59-586; 59-588,

*Salona 37*: 36-359; 41-406;

*Salona 41*: PG15-PT141; 15-145; 32-316; 36-356; 40-398; 54-538; 57-569; 78-778; 80-796; 80-798; 97-965;

*Salona 42*: PG15-PT145; 36-359; 40-398; 93-929; 94-932;

*Cigale 16:* PG15-PT148; 16-152; 17-161; 55-549; 63-625;

*Cigale 14*: PG17-PT163; 55-549;

*Santa Cruz 43*: PG17-PT169

*Sydney Yachts*: PG18-PT171; 18-175;

*Sydney GTS 37*: 43-423;

*Sydney GTS 43*: PG18-PT173;

*Winner 12.20*: PG20-193;

*First 40*: 31-304; 32-313; 32-316; 35-344; 36-354; 55-546; 55-547;

*First 35*: 36-356

*Dehler 41*: 30-296;

*Dehler 44*: 79-785;

*Dehler 45*: 36-356; 79-785;

*Luffe 40.04*: 30-300; 31-301; 31-303;

*XP 38*: 56-533; 56-544; 56-555; 67-622;

*XP 44*: 33-325;

*Pacer 430*: 36-357;

*Pacer 376*: 36-357; 66-652; 69-683;

*Faurby 424*: 36-360; 37-361; 37-363; 37-365;

*Comfortina 39*: 40-395;

*J 133*: 43-426; 63-620

*J 111*: 100-993;

*Maxi 11*: 99-982;

*Arcona yachts*: 46-456;

*Arcona 410*: 47-467; 47-468; 47-469; 48-471;

*Arcona 430*: 48-472;

*Arcona 460*: 50-495

*Finngulf yachts*: 46-456;

*Varianta 44*: 60-594; 60-595; 60-596; 60-597; 60-598; 64-639;

*Imagine 53*: 63-628;

*Zou 40.2*: 63-620

*Ker 39*: 68-676;

*Finn-Flyer 42*: 77-762;

*Azuree 40*: 85-842;

*Loft 40*: 85-848; 85-852;

*Vivace 35*: 90-895;

*Sailing boats over 49ft*

*Zeydon 60* : PG 12-119;

*JP 54*: PG18-PT172;

*Salona 60*: 70-695;

*Stadships*: PG20-PT193; 20-195;

*Pogo 50*: 32-318; 32-319;

*X-50*: 54-537;

*Murtic 52*: 54-537;

*Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats*

*Sirius 32*: PG1-PT1

*Sirius 35*: PG1-PT1; 1-10; 2-18; 50-491; 50-492; 60-559; 60-599;

*Sirius 31*: PG1-PT5; 2-17; 36-356;

*Regina 35*: 48-478;

*Regina 40*: PG11-PT104; 49-481; 49-483;

*Southerly yachts*: PG11-PT104;

*Luffe 43DS*: PG12-PT111; 12-115; 50-494;

*Noordkaper 40*: PG14-pt139;

*Noordkaper yachts*: PG16-PT155

*Nordship 36*: 30-297; 49-482;

*Nordship 38*: 49-482; 49-490;

*Paulo's pilot house I*: 38-376; 39-381; 39-383; 39-384;

*Paulo's pilot house* *II*: 69-682

*Lyman & Morse 45*: 38-379;

*CR 38DS*: 48-477; 48-478;

*CR 40DS*: 48-476; 48-478; 48-479; 50-494; 50-496; 50-497; 50-498;

*Arcona 40DS*: 50-494;

*Racers*

*Figaro 2*G4-PT36; 4-37; 5-42; 6-52; 6-53; 6-55; 6-56

*VOR 70*: PG16-PT160; 17-187

*Farr 400*: 67-661

*Soto 40*: 96-952;

*Lifting keel/centerboarder*

*Southerly yachts*: PG11-PT104;

*Allures 45*: PG10-PT93; 100-996;

*Allures yachts*: 25-248;

*OVNI 425*: 23-228;

*OVNI 395* : 68-679; 69-690;

*J 108*: 67-661

*Atlantic 43:* 68-67

*Boreal 44*: 97-970; 98-974;

*Multihulls till 34ft *

*Several Trimarans*: 28-273;

*Multihulls with 34ft and over*

*Dragonfly yachts*: 26-257;

*Dragonfly 35*: 26-258; 27-261; 27-262;

*Dragonfly 1200*: 56-551;

*Corsair 37*: 28-276;

*Farrier 39*: 28-277;

*Challenge 37*: 28-278

*Hammerhead 34*: 29-385;

*Hammerhead 54*: 29-288; 30-292;

*Trimax 10.80*: 29-285;

*Sig 45*: 54-534; 54-539; 54-540;

*Gunboat*: 56-551

*Fusion*: 56-551;

*Outremer*: 56-551;

*Tournier*: 56-511;

*Classical and Traditional boats*

*Jclass boats*: 54-537;

*Tofinou 12*: 71-703;

*Folck boat*: 73-727;

*Puffin Yachts*: PG14-PT135; 14-138; 16-155;

*Bestwind 50*: PG12-PT116; 14-123;

*Bestevaer 53*: PG12-PT116;

*Bestevaer yachts*: PG16-PT155

*Cape George 36*: 41-410; 42-412;

*Marieholm 33* : 42-412;

*(actualized till PG100)*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Well, I am going to post about an unusual boat a boat that I like. Not very rational but who says that sailing is very rational? That's a poet's boat, the kind of boat I would like to own when I get old . No, it is not particularly slow and I bet that it is even faster close to the wind, but its design it is not the best way to get space and performance from a sailboat at an affordable price...and of course I have doubts if you can raise a ballasted 1T keel pulling from the mast. Can the mast take it? Can the winches take it? Maybe I am wrong and in that case the boat is even more interesting

That's a Classic looking boat and I would say a radical: LOA 12m, Beam 3.16, Weight 4000kg, draft 3m, ballast 1000kg. The keel can be lifted and the boat has then 0.65m draft.

Take a look:



























































































I know, some of you are going to say that this is a crazy boat, that it will not sail properly, but you are wrong. This is a boat with a very appropriated name, "L'enfant perdu" and it is designed by Patrick Balta, a French Architect that has also designed a big sister, "L'etoile de l'horizon" (15m) and this one has raced the route du rhum (famous transat) and several other transats.

Some pictures of the big sister:



















This baby can make more than 11k close to the wind and 15K at 90º of the wind. Who says that classical looking yachts has to be slow

If you don't believe it take a look at these movies...fast I am telling you

YouTube - ‪route du rhum 1‬‏

YouTube - ‪Etoile Horizon‬‏


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## nemier

Fantastic boats Paulo! I love them!


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## PCP

A very special RM 1350 (almost no interior and water ballasts) has got good results on the first leg of the Azab race (England-Açores and back, solo or duo). The boat finished second overall.










Yes, not bad, the race was dominated by the fight between the first Class 40 and the RM 1350. In the end the RM was beaten by some hours but has beaten another class 40 and a fast J133. Only the first Class40 and the RM were solo sailed. The other Class 40 and the J 133 were duo sailed.

I am very curious to see the performance of the new RM 1350 performance

On the smaller boats a J105 won closely followed by an Elan 380.

AZAB 2011 - 10th Azores and Back Yacht Race


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## MikeWhy

The mast should be able to take the 1T load easily. That's small compared to the shroud and stay loads. As for the winches... 1T is probably light or at least on par with wrestling that huge headsail.


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## PCP

MikeWhy said:


> The mast should be able to take the 1T load easily. That's small compared to the shroud and stay loads. As for the winches... 1T is probably light or at least on par with wrestling that huge headsail.


Probably the mast can take it but I doubt the winches can. That sailboat has a 48.2m2 main, the sail is bigger than the one I used on my 36ft but not that much. On my boat I had some hard work to pull the 75kg of my soon to the top of the mast. I don't think I could pull 200kg up ans certainly not 1000kg. we are talking about 13 times more than 75kg! To make things even worse there will be a lot more friction that the one that is experienced when we pull someone up.

Regards

Paulo


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## MikeWhy

I might have had J-class boats on my mind when I wrote that. 

There's hoist room for a 2:1 purchase directly above, and another 2:1 on the downhaul. No, it won't be easy. Maybe with a 3-speed winch and a lot of grinding?

(Edit: Well, wait a minute... Could probably do it all directly above. Not enough room to cascade on the downhaul. Just need lots of rope.)


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## PCP

New boat, another one from Denmark a small country with many boat builders and has usual from there, a beautiful boat, the Olsen 37.

Olsen is an old boat builder that is marketing for the first time? a small production boat. It is a week-end boat with main focus in sail pleasure and beauty.

Regarding beauty the boat is a looker. They tried to keep the profile has low as it was possible to the point of having this: *" To allow headroom below coach roof in harbour, the coach roof can be lifted approx. 20 cm electrically by pushing a bottom".* 

The boat is made to be easily sailed solo:

*"The deep cockpit is equipped with a steering wheel from where all halyards and sheets can be managed. To ensure optimal steering position cockpit seats are made in such a way, that you can decide in which position to steer the boat. They can be positioned for or aft depending on the position of the helmsman. They can also be stoved away to give plenty of space in standing position. The low coach roof makes it possible to have a brilliant view over the boat while sailing."*

And you can have a SUN BED in the cockpit :
*"The 2 m long cockpit lockers can be folded towards centerline to form a sun bed of 2 x 1,6 m".*

Now with all those "gadgets" we would tend to think that sailing is not the main purpose, but we would be wrong. The boat is all built in epoxy using infusion, is light (4950kg) has a big ballast (2000kg) on a bulb, and therefore it will have a lot of sail power (B/D 40%) and a narrow beam (3,20m) will contribute to make it a very fast boat with a very well made and good quality interior.





































About the interior, it is an open one that gives a big sensation of space . They say about it:

*Below deck we have made everything looking as bright and open as possible. The centre section of the coach roof is made out of smoked acrylic, and 3 elements can be open to ensure ventilation and emergency exit. The interior is made out of white pigmented oak, Corean™, frozen acrylic, white sprayed panels and light teak floor thought as a contrast to the dark blue cushions.

The interior plan is more or less traditional, but elements are different. The top part of the toilet/bathroom is made out of frozen acrylic, which allows diffuse light penetration, but enough cover to obtain privacy.*



















The boat has plenty of zenithal light but I confess that the lack of view to the scenery would be a very strong negative point to me even in an such a nice boat.

Take a look at the movies, yes it is a fast boat :

YouTube - ‪Minbaad.dk tester Olsen370‬‏

YouTube - ‪Minbaad.dk tester Olsen370‬‏


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## MikeWhy

PCP said:


> About the interior, it is an open one that gives the sensation of space that is increased by the absence of mast or any link.
> ...
> Take a look at the movies, yes it is a fast boat :


What an incredibly clean job of hiding the lines. It looks fantastic. And fast! The stern wave is a good 1/4 boat length behind in some of those shots.

I'm curious about your comment about the "absence of mast" in the interior. There's definitely a compression post, or even keel-stepped mast, in the interview video. I don't speak Danish, but the gist seemed to come across well in the images.

The raise-able roof does seem a bit gimmicky. Having spent time in the "pilot house" of a Lagoon 420 dockominium, I would trade some of the windage for some side lights. And I guess the sun-bed option conflicts with installing a traveler on the cockpit floor. Still, I like what they're showing.


----------



## PCP

MikeWhy said:


> What an incredibly clean job of hiding the lines. It looks fantastic. And fast! The stern wave is a good 1/4 boat length behind in some of those shots.
> 
> I'm curious about your comment about the "absence of mast" in the interior. There's definitely a compression post, or even keel-stepped mast, in the interview video. I don't speak Danish, but the gist seemed to come across well in the images.
> 
> The raise-able roof does seem a bit gimmicky. Having spent time in the "pilot house" of a Lagoon 420 dockominium, I would trade some of the windage for some side lights. And I guess the sun-bed option conflicts with installing a traveler on the cockpit floor. Still, I like what they're showing.


Yes, you are right about the compression post. I got confused with this: T*the traditional mast bulkhead is replaced by a frame and an extra stiff deck construction. * Of course they are talking about the bulkhead not the compression post...that and my desire to see a sailboat with an open space and without a compression post (I have edited the post).

By the way, welcome to the thread

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Talking about Danish boats (and not only) and beautiful boats (and great sailing) just look at these images. Nice sailing, nice boats

YouTube - ‪Bådmagasinet - Big Boat Challenge 2010‬‏


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## nemier

Paulo,
I think we have a problem here.  

You may have to change the title of this thread to:

Sailboat PORN! :laugher 

absolutely stunning boats! Balta's Lefant Perdu really gets me going too, and has moved to my personal No. 1 mono.


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## tdw

L'Enfant Perdu is a stunner no doubt about that but I'd not take to her as a long term cruiser. Would make for a fine racer and be pretty cool for weekend cruising but nah, not for long term. 

btw .. am I the only one who has concerns about those vertical blade keels ? I'd hate to think what would be left if you hit a whale or even a sunfish with one of those things.


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## bb74

PCP said:


> Well, I am going to post about an unusual boat a boat that I like. Not very rational but who says that sailing is very rational? That's a poet's boat, the kind of boat I would like to own when I get old . No, it is not particularly slow and I bet that it is even faster close to the wind, but its design it is not the best way to get space and performance from a sailboat at an affordable price...and of course I have doubts if you can raise a ballasted 1T keel pulling from the mast. Can the mast take it? Can the winches take it? Maybe I am wrong and in that case the boat is even more interesting
> 
> That's a Classic looking boat and I would say a radical: LOA 12m, Beam 3.16, Weight 4000kg, draft 3m, ballast 1000kg. The keel can be lifted and the boat has then 0.65m draft.
> 
> Take a look:
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> I know, some of you are going to say that this is a crazy boat, that it will not sail properly, but you are wrong. This is a boat with a very appropriated name, "L'enfant perdu" and it is designed by Patrick Balta, a French Architect that has also designed a big sister, "L'etoile de l'horizon" (15m) and this one has raced the route du rhum (famous transat) and several other transats.
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> This baby can make more than 11k close to the wind and 15K at 90º of the wind. Who says that classical looking yachts has to be slow
> 
> If you don't believe it take a look at these movies...fast I am telling you
> 
> YouTube - ‪route du rhum 1‬‏
> 
> YouTube - ‪Etoile Horizon‬‏


the "big sister" is for sale - 120K €


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## PCP

tdw said:


> L'Enfant Perdu is a stunner no doubt about that but I'd not take to her as a long term cruiser. Would make for a fine racer and be pretty cool for weekend cruising but nah, not for long term.
> 
> btw .. am I the only one who has concerns about those vertical blade keels ? I'd hate to think what would be left if you hit a whale or even a sunfish with one of those things.


I don't think that should be a problem bigger than in most fast boats. At least in that one you would have two rudders that are the more fragile part of any boat. You could lose one and you would still have steerage, limited, but enough to sail slowly and get away with it.

However those that like narrow hulls (me included) should be aware that means necessarily a lot of heel and that if the boat is sailed fast that does not really means a comfortable motion:

YouTube - ‪route du rhum 1‬‏

The heeling reason has to do with the way the boat gets its initial righting moment, the one used to carry sails:

On a narrow boat there will be little form stability so that power come from the ballast. That's also why narrow boats need more ballast to sail. The ballast does generate very little RM with small angles of heel. You need to have a lot of heel for the ballast to be really effective.

On a beamy boat most of the RM comes from form stability and that is generated with small angles of heel. That's why beamy boats needs less ballast for sailing and sail with a lot less heel. Of course, in what regards reserve stability and inverted stability all the advantages go to narrow boats.

That's why I prefer a mixed solution, a boat not too beamy but also not to narrow. I would say that for a 40ft that means a beam between 3.70 and 3.90m. L'enfant perdu (40ft) has 3.16m

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

nemier said:


> Paulo,
> I think we have a problem here.
> 
> You may have to change the title of this thread to:
> 
> Sailboat PORN! :laugher
> 
> absolutely stunning boats! Balta's Lefant Perdu really gets me going too, and has moved to my personal No. 1 mono.


Boat Porn Eh!!! It seems you like that

That's difficult to find better quality Boat Porn than what is provided by Patrick Balta. Look at these designs:
































































He has even a 40class design, a narrow boat off course

http://www.balta.fr/Classe 40.html

Patrick Balta - Architecte naval

Nemier, I find funny that you be interested in multihulls...and in the opposite kind of sailboats, very narrow deep bulbed boats. Extremes do touch sometimes

Some movies of Balta's boats...bad quality but beautiful boats that sail well:

YouTube - ‪MOV009‬‏

YouTube - ‪ADELE le bateau de Alain Maupas2‬‏

YouTube - ‪Maximus premiers essais‬‏

YouTube - ‪maximus 4.AVI‬‏

YouTube - ‪tangara.avi‬‏

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

PCP said:


> I don't think that should be a problem bigger than in most fast boats. At least in that one you would have two rudders that are the more fragile part of any boat. You could lose one and you would still have steerage, limited, but enough to sail slowly and get away with it.
> Regards
> Paulo


:laugher:laugher I was more worried about the whales and the sunfish than I was about the keel.


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## nemier

PCP said:


> Boat Porn Eh!!! It seems you like that
> ...
> That's difficult to find better quality Boat Porn than what is provided by Patrick Balta. Look at these designs:
> ...
> Nemier, I find funny that you be interested in multihulls...and in the opposite kind of sailboats, very narrow deep bulbed boats. Extremes do touch sometimes
> 
> Regards
> Paulo


I was wondering when someone would pick up on the fact that my boat interests seem to be polar opposites  
The reason is that these sexy boats by Balta are my 'personal' dream, but one my wife of 24 years does not share - what to do?
The Catamarans were an attempt to compromise and I'll soon be trying to enlighten my wife on the wonderful benefits of a Catana 47. But I'm prepared for the likelihood that our circumnavigation may be completed by a Nordhavn 

I'm saving the Balta boat for my old age when I go sailing solo.  Stay healthy Paulo and I'll sail over and show you my new Balta boat in (2030) :laugher 
I wonder if this website will even exist by then? The Sailboat Porn thread, sorry, (interesting sailboats) thread will have 26,234 views and going strong


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## PCP

nemier said:


> I was wondering when someone would pick up on the fact that my boat interests seem to be polar opposites
> The reason is that these sexy boats by Balta are my 'personal' dream, but one my wife of 24 years does not share - what to do?
> The Catamarans were an attempt to compromise and I'll soon be trying to enlighten my wife on the wonderful benefits of a Catana 47. But I'm prepared for the likelihood that our circumnavigation may be completed by a Nordhavn
> 
> I'm saving the Balta boat for my old age when I go sailing solo.  Stay healthy Paulo and I'll sail over and show you my new Balta boat in (2030) :laugher
> I wonder if this website will even exist by then? The Sailboat Porn thread, sorry, (interesting sailboats) thread will have 26,234 views and going strong


Hum! I don't know if a Cat like the Catana 47 is the right choice. Cats can be uncomfortable with waves. They take the same wave two time, one in each hull .

Have you tried to convince her with a Cigale 16? The boat, specially the older version with water ballasts can be sailed even against the wind with very moderated heeling (15º) at a good speed:










I think it will be a more comfortable boat and one you would sail solo without any problem. Can you not convince her with this interior and outside views:




























If I said to my wife to come and circumnavigate with me she would not come. She would not even would cross the Atlantic with me and I would never try to persuade her too hard. Go step by step, small steps:

Let your wife experience a Cigale 16 in the Caribbean, let her enjoy the sun and the Islands. Talk her to explore the med, tell her the med is beautifull and the sea allways calm (a small lie ). Buy a boat in Europe and explore the med, let her enjoy that. Later, with more experience, you will see if she will want to cross the Atlantic with you. otherwise you sent her by plane and enjoy the passage in one of the best boats you can have to do that.

Never but never say to her that you want to circumnavigate with her or that she would have to do a passage on the boat. Let her discover the good things in cruising bit by bit don't scare her let her gain confidence and let her have a complete confidence on you and things will go slowly but will go.

Boat Rental Monohull Cigale 16 Guadeloupe Antigua St Martin

Otherwise you can end up buying a boat that would not be indicated to solo sail and your wife with not be with you anyway.

Regarding this thread, I hope it will not last that long . This thread is a kind of occupational therapy for me. I explain: I am a doer and not a patient man but life but me in a situation where I have to be patient and wait that things happen, I mean professionally (the famous Portuguese Bureaucracy). Things are going as preview but the fact that I cannot do almost nothing but waiting would kill me if I had not find something to occupy my time. So in this and in a French forum I participate not only to share knowledge but also to improve my French and English skills. I really hope that in some short time I would have to occupy my time in a different and more profitable way

Regards

Paulo


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## MikeWhy

Wow. Even my walk-in closet would look palatial with that 10mm lens. Really nice job with the interior shots.


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## MikeWhy

But there must be some mistake. Someone drew in four heads in those plans.


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## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> If I said to my wife to come and circumnavigate with me she would not come. She would not even would cross the Atlantic with me and I would never try to persuade her too hard.
> 
> Never but never say to her that you want to circumnavigate with her or that she would have to do a passage on the boat. Let her discover the good things in cruising bit by bit don't scare her let her gain confidence and let her have a complete confidence on you and things will go slowly but will go.
> 
> Otherwise you can end up buying a boat that would not be indicated to solo sail and your wife with not be with you anyway.


One additional tip that (almost) always works: pick a boat that both you and your kids like. This would probably be a fast, no ******** boat. Sail it, enjoy the broad smiles on their faces and look at the miracle happening: Mum loves the boat too 

Best regards,

Eric


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## PCP

MikeWhy said:


> But there must be some mistake. Someone drew in four heads in those plans.


No mistake. That's probably a charter version: Four cabins, four heads

Regards

Paulo


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## jibjefe

For interesting sail boats lets talk about the very, very big ones. For sure the gigantic ones give you an experience of a life time. Nothing can be compared to living a great world wide adventure in one of those sail beasts.


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## PCP

New boat from Hanse and it seems a very interesting one, a serious competitor to the new Jeanneau 379, the Hanse 385.

The boat is a bit more heavy than the Jeanneau but I am sure it will have an epoxy option (as all the other Hanses) and that will make the weight close, it has more ballast all in a full bulb and that will give it more righting moment and more power. It carries a bit more sail but is also more beamier. That means more sail power but also more drag.



















They didn't show any images of the interior but I will hope (without many expectations) that this one can have a less IKEA interior. The layout is just very good especially on the two cabin version that has an amazing galley for a 38ft.



















I also like the rest of the boat, well, I would have preferred it a bit thinner, but that's it. The boat looks good, and has one or two good ideas. One of them is to have all the winches in a lateral position. That will allow it more flexibility in their use and probably will allow a German sheeting system and not to have the need of changing lines all the time, as on the Jeanneaus. The front one for the Genoa, the back one for the mainsail.

The back winch, like in the Jeanneau, is very close to the wheel and solo sailing will be easy. The boat has not a traveler, but the Hanse main-sheet system. Well it seems that it works relatively well but I would have preferred a traveler. That would not be a problem if they maintain the same politic they used to have: They will mount one. They even used to mount one aft, if you wanted, near the wheel at least on the 40ft and 43ft. Maybe they will do it on this one also










The transom seems great also, with a big bathing platform and with a central open place to let you have lot´s of place at the wheel and a lateral seats that will be very handy with the boat heeled (the lateral part of the other seat will provide foot support). I has a dedicated space for a liferaft and seems to be well designed to give a stable downwind ride.



















This seems to be a great boat, so much better than the 375. I only hope they will not mess up the interior, as usual

...


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## PCP

jibjefe said:


> For interesting sail boats lets talk about the very, very big ones. For sure the gigantic ones give you an experience of a life time. Nothing can be compared to living a great world wide adventure in one of those sail beasts.


Hi! Welcome to the thread.

You mean like these?































































































































Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

And some details:


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## Chimbatete

I'm 29 and dreaming of "the boat" here in North America. After reading this thread, who would still get a Sabre, Tartan, Island Packet, Shannons, Pacific Seacrafts and so ons. For most sailing needs those aforementioned boats are nearing extinction.

Heres a couple of boats not yet posted

Winner 1220:



















Swedestar 370:










YouTube - ‪The sexy Swedish Swedestar 370‬‏


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## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> ,,,,
> 
> Heres a couple of boats not yet posted
> 
> Winner 1220:
> 
> Swedestar 370:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - ‪The sexy Swedish Swedestar 370‬‏


 Hi Chimbatete,

The winner 12.20 was posted a long time ago:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats-20.html

Before posting about a new boat confirm on the first page of the thread if the boat was not posted already.

The Swedestar 370 is a great boat. I have seen it in the Dusseldorf boatshow. The only thing against is price: As all Nordic boats it's expensive, but very well made and finished.

Chimbatete please reduce on the server the size of the pictures you have posted regarding the Winner 12.20 to 1024/768 otherwise we cannot see them properly and they take out of configuration all page. Most photo servers like photobucket allow you to chose a fixed sized. That way you can save pictures with any size and they will never be bigger than the size you have chosen (1024/768).

Regards

Paulo


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## Chimbatete

Paulo,

Sorry about the winner. I changed the sizes.

But back to my original question, why would I take a Sabre 426 or a Tartan 4100 who has a capsize ratio not much better than a faster SO 409 or an Opium for significantly more $$? Is the build quality that much better in these American boats? 

I see the Sabre 426 in the half a million range same as other heavy performance cruisers such as the Malo 40 or a Najad 41. Am I missing something here?


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## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Paulo,
> 
> ...
> 
> But back to my original question, why would I take a Sabre 426 or a Tartan 4100 who has a capsize ratio not much better than a faster SO 409 or an Opium for significantly more $$? Is the build quality that much better in these American boats?
> 
> I see the Sabre 426 in the half a million range same as other heavy performance cruisers such as the Malo 40 or a Najad 41. Am I missing something here?


I have tried avoid to answer that. I don't want to hurt any sensibilities .

One thing we can take for granted is that for each new American model that appear in the market there are 20 new (or more) European ones. It seems that Americans just turned to motorboats and that in Europe there are a lot more people buying new sailboats. This creates a difference in competitiveness that tends to improve the design of European boats in a faster way than in America. There are also a much bigger number of major boat designers and naval cabinets specialized in sailboats.

Generally each new model is better (and sails faster) than the previous model and each model is substituted in about 4 or 5 years and has a tight competition of several boat manufacturers working for the same sail segment. It is very rare that the best model of a particular market sector stays the same for more than three years, at least on the main market sector.

Saying this I do not find your comparison between the Tartan 4100 and the SO 409 accurate, particularly in what regards stability:

The Tartan has a B/D of 33% the Jeanneau 30%. Both boats have ballasted bulbs. The one from jeanneau seems bigger, meaning that most of the ballast is there, the Tartan seems to have the ballast distributed by all the keel with some of the ballast on a bulb but it is difficult to say because I never saw a Tartan 4100. Anyway I think that is more than compensated by the differences of draft, 2.1 to the Jeanneau, 2.29 to the Tartan. The Tartan will be a slightly more seaworthy and stiff boat but the Jeanneau will be faster. The Tartan has more 5m2 of sail that will not be capable to contra-balance the huge difference in weight : more than 1400kg.

I find the Jeanneau better designed over all: It has a brand new hull, top of the crop in what regards performance and stability, the Tartan uses a several years old hull taken from another boat (C&C). The Jeanneau superstructure looks very sleek and modern, the one from Tartan looks 10 year's old. On the interior the Jeanneau is also better designed but the quality of the materials are much better on the Tartan.

Fact is that by the quality of its materials (and its prices) the Tartan is in another category competing with boats like the Halberg Rassy, Najad or Malo.

As you probably know Tartan has been afflicted in the last years with many quality problems. They have changed owners and I would like to see it raising to it's former glory but I doubt that it will manage it without better designed boats. As I have said in a previous post, I liked more the previous 40ft model : It looked like a nice classic boat that could sail well. This one looks like a 10 year old "modern" boat.

Regarding Tartan sales in America I suspect they are on the low side, on Europe the boat don't sell. In 2008 the European importer has imported a 43 and the boat is not sold yet:

2008 Tartan 4300 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

and I bet they will make a huge discount on that boat

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Something to learn: A wipe-out on a J 109

The big question to chose a fast boat: best downwind or upwind performance? Best means not only faster but means also safer and easier, specially with a solo sailor and that is very important.

These are fantastic images. I don't know much about sailing with a crew, so you guys that race with a crew please correct at will, but what I think it happened was this:

Nice sailing, not too much wind. A bit more wind the boat took a little more heeling. The guys on the rail, that were in the wrong position already didn't move when the boat started to heel. That boat has not a lot of form stability and needs heel or the crew moving as ballast to create a fair amount of RM at low angles of heeling. The guy on the wheel did not correct soon enough, didn't yell to the crew to move to starboard and back, the ruder lost grip and the boom went all the way to the other side and the inevitable happened.

This would never happened with a Pogo 10.50 with this wind. With a Pogo we would not need crew siting around to balance the boat downwind: Its huge form stability would takes care of that, generating lots of RM at low angles of heel. The boat would not have heeled much in first place, nothing that the double rudders could not take care off.

Now, I am not saying that I prefer a Pogo (most of you know that I prefer a compromise between a Pogo and a J 109) but these images semmed too good not to post

YouTube - ‪Færderseilasen Wipeout‬‏


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## Chimbatete

PCP said:


> I have tried avoid to answer that. I don't want to hurt any sensibilities .
> 
> One thing we can take for granted is that for each new American model that appear in the market there are 20 new (or more) European ones. It seems that Americans just turned to motorboats and that in Europe there are a lot more people buying new sailboats. This creates a difference in competitiveness that tends to improve the design of European boats in a faster way than in America. There are also a much bigger number of major boat designers and naval cabinets specialized in sailboats.
> 
> Generally each new model is better (and sails faster) than the previous model and each model is substituted in about 4 or 5 years and has a tight competition of several boat manufacturers working for the same sail segment. It is very rare that the best model of a particular market sector stays the same for more than three years, at least on the main market sector.
> 
> Saying this I do not find your comparison between the Tartan 4100 and the SO 409 accurate, particularly in what regards stability:
> 
> The Tartan has a B/D of 33% the Jeanneau 30%. Both boats have ballasted bulbs. The one from jeanneau seems bigger, meaning that most of the ballast is there, the Tartan seems to have the ballast distributed by all the keel with some of the ballast on a bulb but it is difficult to say because I never saw a Tartan 4100. Anyway I think that is more than compensated by the differences of draft, 2.1 to the Jeanneau, 2.29 to the Tartan. The Tartan will be a slightly more seaworthy and stiff boat but the Jeanneau will be faster. The Tartan has more 5m2 of sail that will not be capable to contra-balance the huge difference in weight : more than 1400kg.
> 
> I find the Jeanneau better designed over all: It has a brand new hull, top of the crop in what regards performance and stability, the Tartan uses a several years old hull taken from another boat (C&C). The Jeanneau superstructure looks very sleek and modern, the one from Tartan looks 10 year's old. On the interior the Jeanneau is also better designed but the quality of the materials are much better on the Tartan.
> 
> Fact is that by the quality of its materials (and its prices) the Tartan is in another category competing with boats like the Halberg Rassy, Najad or Malo.
> 
> As you probably know Tartan has been afflicted in the last years with many quality problems. They have changed owners and I would like to see it raising to it's former glory but I doubt that it will manage it without better designed boats. As I have said in a previous post, I liked more the previous 40ft model : It looked like a nice classic boat that could sail well. This one looks like a 10 year old "modern" boat.
> 
> Regarding Tartan sales in America I suspect they are on the low side, on Europe the boat don't sell. In 2008 the European importer has imported a 43 and the boat is not sold yet:
> 
> 2008 Tartan 4300 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> and I bet they will make a huge discount on that boat
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo,

Thanks for the info, yes Ive heard about the Tartan having problems and you already have stated that theyre rehashing old hulls as "new" ones. Ive also read that Americans have the edge in interior finish and this is their niche for those who wants to live aboard. But seeing some of the interiors of the Malos and Danish built boats, the Euro boats actually looks better with the exception of semi-customs like a Morris. Americans/Canadians also have different tastes with the exception of J-Boats, most here in the marina are smitten by Hinckleys, ohhh Hinckley is great. They love full displacement boats but at the same time no intention of sailing outside Lake Ontario . I would mention boats like Cigale and no one would know. BTW Ive been dropping boat names now since Ive been reading this thread.:laugher.

Paulo I want to ask you in regards to Heavy Performance Cruisers (so that excludes Arconas, Salonas, Xyachts Performance range, Faurbys and Luffes) What is the fastest between a Malo, Najad or HR or other boats? Charts seems to indicate around same speed at diff points.

Also I just finished my Full Keel course and the instructor was adamant that Beam reach achieves fastest speed (He states this as fact) and when I read its mostly broad reach where some of these Euro boats are fastest.


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## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> ...
> 
> Paulo I want to ask you in regards to Heavy Performance Cruisers (so that excludes Arconas, Salonas, Xyachts Performance range, Faurbys and Luffes) What is the fastest between a Malo, Najad or HR or other boats? Charts seems to indicate around same speed at diff points.
> 
> Also I just finished my Full Keel course and the instructor was adamant that Beam reach achieves fastest speed (He states this as fact) and when I read its mostly broad reach where some of these Euro boats are fastest.


20 or 15 years ago the Malo, Najad and HR were heavy displacement boats but not anymore, I mean the new models. They are medium displacement boats. I would say that for some American standards they would be considered light boats (being the others you mentioned ULB).

The new ones are good sailing boats. I would say that among that type of boat the fastest would be the XC yachts (no doubt), then the Malo, the HR and the Najad. But between those three you would have to look at the boats one by one. As a rule the newer boats are faster. The Halberg Rassy 372 is an exception and it is really a fast boat, as fast or faster than the XC 38.

Regarding your teacher he is talking about full keeled boats, displacement boats, boats that cannot plane nor going faster than hull speed.

This is a nice one for learning how to sail. See the speed polar. Obviously this one can go faster than hull speed










Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

This is the day of the nice movies. I want to share this one with you all. It is about Figaro II solo sailed on the last race (Generali Solo). This race has several races and this one, a small one, is a kind of a typical regatta. The Images are beautiful as it is fantastic the work of those skippers: A one man band And the music is great.

By the way Morvan won this one and the Generali solo and the only foreigner, A Portugais won one of the races, got third on this one and finnished in 5th.

YouTube - ‪Arrivée finale de la Generali Solo 2011‬‏


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## myocean

A new boat of the kind I like: jpk 38fc
This seems to be racing like fast and comfortable (relatively) at the same time. Up to now the JPKs where less cruising oriented. Different than the Pogo it seems to come with a decent interior and doors!
And: They are already talking about the coming 42 ft version.

Longueur. . . . . . . . . . . 11,38 m
Largeur. . . . . . . . . . . . .3,99 m
Poids. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5,000 t
Moteur Volvo. . . . . . . . . . 30 cv
Lest. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1,900 t
Tirant d'eau quillard. . . . . . . 2,15 m
Tirant d'eau bi-quille. . . . . . . 1,75 m
Voilure
surface au près . . . . . . . . . . . . 80 m2
Spi asymétrique. . . . . .130 m2

Nice to see the traveller at the real end, directly at the transom. So you can install a big bimini. Together with the two tillers this gives lots of living space in the cockpit. 
At the same time the interior looks interesting as well.

Ulf


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## Chimbatete

See if im reading this right, this small Elan is a boat thats not so great upwind but can do 16knots at broad reach?? I mean thats almost as fast as a DF 35 for 1/5 less the price. No wonder these pocket rockets are so popular. 

My bad about my course. It was called Basic keel boat (not full keel) and yes he said 90 degrees is where its fastest. It was great learning since the boats all manual, no roller nothing (Tanzer 25). He also has a Beneteau 37 as his own boat and when I asked him if he goes offshore with it he looked at me funny and invited me to his advance class in the Virgin Islands. From reading most of the forums, youd think that Benehuntelinas arent capable boats but meanwhile the reality is this guy was looking at me funny like "what are you talking about"? Hes going to Bermuda next year with it.

And this got me back into this thread where I see people are doubting that some of these half million dollar boats you posted may be problems in the open ocean yet an older Beneteau 37 goes to Bermuda no problem.


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## MikeWhy

Chimbatete said:


> See if im reading this right, this small Elan is a boat thats not so great upwind but can do 16knots at broad reach?? I mean thats almost as fast as a DF 35 for 1/5 less the price. No wonder these pocket rockets are so popular.


It's a fascinating topic, one that we can't do justice in these short notes. Frank BethWaite's "High Performance Sailing" is encyclopedic, and somewhat dry, on the speed-at-any-cost point of view. For balance, read Van Dorn's "Oceanography and Seamanship" for a cruiser's passagemaking point of view.

Basically, you're looking at opposite ends of a boat's performance range. Downwind, performance is limited by its ability to get up on plane, and sail area is limited by form stability. Upwind, she's strictly a displacement hull, limited by her keel and waterline.



Chimbatete said:


> And this got me back into this thread where I see people are doubting that some of these half million dollar boats you posted may be problems in the open ocean yet an older Beneteau 37 goes to Bermuda no problem.


They're all different, aimed to appeal to a different segment of the market. (And that's the key. They're not the boats we're likely to sail, but we all dream of one or another.)


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## Chimbatete

MikeWhy said:


> It's a fascinating topic, one that we can't do justice in these short notes. Frank BethWaite's "High Performance Sailing" is encyclopedic, and somewhat dry, on the speed-at-any-cost point of view. For balance, read Van Dorn's "Oceanography and Seamanship" for a cruiser's passagemaking point of view.
> 
> Basically, you're looking at opposite ends of a boat's performance range. Downwind, performance is limited by its ability to get up on plane, and sail area is limited by form stability. Upwind, she's strictly a displacement hull, limited by her keel and waterline.
> 
> They're all different, aimed to appeal to a different segment of the market. (And that's the key. They're not the boats we're likely to sail, but we all dream of one or another.)


It begs the question that after almost 50 years of small boats crossing oceans and round the globe racing, why cant they make the "perfect" boat. And by perfect i mean best compromise x yachts speed with Shannon seaworthiness. When i say an all around boat i do understand that a condo interior isnt a prerequisite, i can live with a dragonfly 35 interior long as i dont have to worry about it flipping in a force 10.. I know theres tons of assumption here but you guys know what i mean. A sailing boat that unites both camps.

Also how are these hulls? Are these new ocean cruisers going to last like their predecessors (ex. valiants) where 30 years from now they will be still be coveted.

Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit but these are newbie questions.


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> See if im reading this right, this small Elan is a boat thats not so great upwind but can do 16knots at broad reach?? I mean thats almost as fast as a DF 35 for 1/5 less the price. No wonder these pocket rockets are so popular.
> 
> My bad about my course. It was called Basic keel boat (not full keel) and yes he said 90 degrees is where its fastest. It was great learning since the boats all manual, no roller nothing (Tanzer 25). He also has a Beneteau 37 as his own boat and when I asked him if he goes offshore with it he looked at me funny and invited me to his advance class in the Virgin Islands. From reading most of the forums, youd think that Benehuntelinas arent capable boats but meanwhile the reality is this guy was looking at me funny like "what are you talking about"? Hes going to Bermuda next year with it.
> 
> And this got me back into this thread where I see people are doubting that some of these half million dollar boats you posted may be problems in the open ocean yet an older Beneteau 37 goes to Bermuda no problem.


Mikewhy has explained the speed issue well. That's about it even if not to close to the wind is possible to pass slightly hull speed in a fast boat. On that one at 70º of true wind, about 45/50º apparent wind, the boat with 13/14k is making 8K and that's 1K over hull speed.

Regarding the Oceanis 37 that's a great sailing boat. Look in the thread, there are posts about it.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MikeWhy

I would think that's more like 5000 years, than 50 years.

The answer is in your own question. A perfect implementation for all needs has no room or need for compromises. We can only build adequate vessels for some range of intended use. The only example that comes to mind of an industry that managed to escape this shackle is electronics and semiconductors. Semiconductors are unique in so many ways, the least of which is essentially unlimited, at least from a 1950's point of view, possibilities, at next to zero cost per unit.

If I were to design a perfect ocean-going vessel, I think it would end up looking and acting more like an albatross, than clumsy fiberglass hulks with inefficient cloth foils.

But, you're right. We're way off topic, with no way of getting back on track.


----------



## Chimbatete

MikeWhy said:


> I would think that's more like 5000 years, than 50 years.
> 
> The answer is in your own question. A perfect implementation for all needs has no room or need for compromises. We can only build adequate vessels for some range of intended use. The only example that comes to mind of an industry that managed to escape this shackle is electronics and semiconductors. Semiconductors are unique in so many ways, the least of which is essentially unlimited, at least from a 1950's point of view, possibilities, at next to zero cost per unit.
> 
> *If I were to design a perfect ocean-going vessel, I think it would end up looking and acting more like an albatross*, than clumsy fiberglass hulks with inefficient cloth foils.
> 
> But, you're right. We're way off topic, with no way of getting back on track.


You mean like this Shannon 38. They have high tea in the cockpit in big seas

YouTube - ‪Heavy Weather Sailing- Shannon 38‬‏

Anyway heres a nice compromise. Fast and relatively heavy rugged cruiser. Its expensive.

Saare 41










Beautiful interior


----------



## PCP

Yes, I fully agree, that's a very nice boat, one of the best looking if not the best looking 40ft center cockpit. An that's not only good looking as it has a very good polar speed and outstanding stability curve. A true passagemaker.

This one is not only better looking than the HR 40 as it is faster. About the same weight but more sail, including a huge geenaker with 120m2. Nice




























They are making a new 38ft that I find even more interesting. It is not a center cockpit (a 38ft center cockpit will look necessarily ugly and heavy) but a very nice looking boat. The numbers seem alright and should be a great boat, a true competitor for the xc38, also an outstanding boat, kind of ideal passage-maker for the solo sailor, a very seaworthy boat.




























If I would want to be picky I would say that this boat should not have a teak interior as option, should only be made in teak and mainly that those port hulls should be bigger because with that size you don't get a view. On X yachts they have understood that and the new Xp come with bigger port hulls in the salon and I believe they will make them bigger also on the Xc line.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

What do you think about this day sailor? It has its focus on sailing inland waters, however looks great, doesn't it? I just passed the shipyard today.
Just don't look at the prices....

Length overall: 9,99m
Waterline length: 9,40m
Max beam: 2.55m
Draft reductable to 1.70 (lifting) 2,10m
Displacement: 2.100kg
Bulb: 990kg
Engine: Yamaha Saildrive 15 HP
Fuel tank: 22 litres

TOTAL SAIL AREA
Total sail area up wind 67 m²
Genoa 24m²
Mainsail 43m²
Gennaker 134m²

CONSTRUCTION MATERIAL
Hull and deck glass sandwich, Infusion epoxy resin.

Technical specifications Esse990


----------



## PCP

The Esse are famous boats in the Alps. They use them on the beautiful Alp lakes and they are a lot of fun to sail. Fast boats and beautiful boats.










The Esse 850 was European boat of the year in 2005. They have them in nice finish, just for the pleasure of sailing with the family and in racing configuration (woods out ) for racing in very popular series. A great boat in any of its configurations (750, 850, 990).

This is the boat program:

*After many years experience in dealing with sailing boats, particularly sports/racers of 8 to 10 metres overall length, I have felt for two years that there is a need in the market for a boat that above all is easy to handle. That means not only a boat that is easy to trailer but above all is simple to handle in its element - on the water; where simple handling means not only the ability to be sailed single-handed, but also the advantage of regatta sailing without the need to recruit a large crew, and nevertheless still be faster than most boats of similar size.*

Willkommen bei den esse boats

Talking about sailing fun :

YouTube - ‪High Speed Esse 850‬‏

YouTube - ‪Trucciolo d'Oro SUI079‬‏

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

Heres a boat maker thats picking up steam and of all places from my hometown of NYC.

e sailing yachts

Makers of no frills but quality daysailers such as the e33. Best value of all the daysailers in the States at least. They blew everyone in comparative analysis see their website.


















and now they're coming out with this:
The E44 ..this company is what America need to compete.


















Thats a party cockpit right there


----------



## Chimbatete

PCP said:


> *After many years experience in dealing with sailing boats, particularly sports/racers of 8 to 10 metres overall length, I have felt for two years that there is a need in the market for a boat that above all is easy to handle. That means not only a boat that is easy to trailer but above all is simple to handle in its element - on the water; where simple handling means not only the ability to be sailed single-handed, but also the advantage of regatta sailing without the need to recruit a large crew, and nevertheless still be faster than most boats of similar size.*
> 
> [Regards
> 
> Paulo


Is this your quote? Ive always wondered, who would allow so many people on their expensive boats but super rich guys who has multiple boats? Id rather have push button sailing than have 20 guys use the head of my boat. I never saw the positive of 20 guys in a boat for casual fun racing. Also boats/racing shouldnt be so tiring, because here they race 5 times a day and it takes the fun out since its exhausting especially if you come in last.

I'll take a DF35 with another guy and blow everyone out of the water


----------



## PCP

No, not my quote. I am quoting the owner of Esse yachts.

But let me get back to the boat you posted. The e-sailing yachts. Yes the 24 is nice boat and if it is affordable and a fast boat, as you say, should be a very interesting boat but I confess that my attention went to the 44. A very interesting boat not only because goes out of the trends (narrow) but also because it seems to be a very fast boat, a fast classic, I like it :










6804k kg for 104m2 of sail upwind and 186m2 downwind is very good, but narrow as it is (3.81m) this boat is going to be a creamer specially if we consider that 47% of the boat weight is ballast, at 2.44m in a bulb. How, this is going to be a stiff boat. I want to sail this one

Pity the boat has a relatively small LWL, but of course, that has to do with its classic design.










But the surprises are many. The mast is a carbon unstayed mast with back spreaders and that permits a huge mainsail with a square top. A solution we can find also in the Pogo 12.50 a completely different boat.










That mainsail goes with a 100% jib on a auto traveller. It seems the boat will not be able to carry a Genoa (they don't have a track for it) and that will pass frob jib directly for a geenaker for downwind sailing.

The boat only has two winches, the main working directly with a purchase system and they are in a very unusual position. Well, the guy that designed the running rigging is a very good sailor and the system should work, but I am very curious about it.










Probably the front sail only has a line, plus the lines for reffing the boat, all seems to come from that hole near the winch but from where will come the Geenaker line? I confess that I am intrigued with that.

If the system works well not only the boat will be very easy to solo sail as the front and bigger part of the cockpit will be free from lines, a true passengers cockpit










The two wells seem a beat out of place to me. Yes, probably he wanted to give a perfect passage to the "passengers cockpit" and also has the advantage of allowing a big storage space under the cockpit deck but it looks like it don't belongs there.

The interior is what we should expect from a narrow boat, I would say that even so it could be better. The space for a Genset not only does not permit a bigger storage space on the cockpit as, making the space for the engine unnecessarily wide, it only permits very small back cabins. I would have modified that and also the choice of the mahogany as interior wood. This boat deserved teak and its clear color wood be a blessing in a boat that has not a very luminous interior.




























The double door for the front cabin is a very nice touch that permits an open space and the sensation of space but only can exist with the two cabin boat and as one is half a cabin...it gets really small.

I say, take away the genset, tight the space for the engine and take all the space won to a cabin putting the engine a little off center. That way we would have a big back cabin, an open space and a smaller storage space. That is a good trade for a genset that many will not want anyway.

It is a pity that these one is made in the USA. I don't think it is going to be a hit and I doubt he survives. This boat would probably be very well welcomed in the North Europe where they love fast sailing and classical boats.

This boat remembers me of another nice boat, a smaller one, the Mystery 35, a British boat:

Mystery 35's Photostream

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Aac

That e44 sure has numbers of a high performance boat. The boat weight minus ballast is 3629 kg; compare that to say a Jeanneau 409 at 5109 kg. They have certainly made an effort to minimize on weight and I don’t think it’s all in the narrow beam. They don’t say much on their web site but maybe composite furniture (good for 400kg), epoxy instead of polyester (good 200Kg), Awlgrip or similar instead of gelcoat (good for 200Kg). Then again I suppose they save a few kg by having only two winches.


----------



## Chimbatete

PCP said:


> *It is a pity that these one is made in the USA. I don't think it is going to be a hit and I doubt he survives. This boat would probably be very well welcomed in the North Europe where they love fast sailing and classical boats.*
> 
> This boat remembers me of another nice boat, a smaller one, the Mystery 35, a British boat:
> 
> Mystery 35's Photostream
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


:laugher wed' take a Tayana over this. It does look like the Mystery but Mystery is built by those who build Crabbers so that one is molasses slow.

Man that Saare is good looking.

Paulo so far, Saare 41, Finnflyer 42 right at the top had Cigale been a glass boat that could be the greatest of all.


----------



## MikeWhy

Do all center cockpits have the same steering gear issues as the Saare 41? It looks like the only access for an emergency tiller is under the berth in the aft cabin.


----------



## bjung

Chimbatete said:


> :laugher wed' take a Tayana over this. It does look like the Mystery but Mystery is built by those who build Crabbers so that one is molasses slow.


Has Stephen Jones ever designed a slow boat??
I wouldn't knock the Mystery 35. From what I've been reading it should out-point most boats in its size. I know, most of you sail downwind, so not a great feature.   
I would prefer this boat over most estonian, slovenian, polish or croatian yachts most of you guys drool over....


----------



## Chimbatete

bjung said:


> Has Stephen Jones ever designed a slow boat??
> I wouldn't knock the Mystery 35. From what I've been reading it should out-point most boats in its size. I know, most of you sail downwind, so not a great feature.
> I would prefer this boat over most estonian, slovenian, polish or croatian yachts most of you guys drool over....


Not sure but when I was looking at these Cornish crabbers they were the slowest boats on the planet and they were the same company that made the mystery yachts. I agree about character boats as compared to these fast ones in eastern europe. I wonder how these racers cruisers from eastern europe holds up in 10 years. The attractive thing about some of these boats are the price points. The Elan 210 for example something new and fast that you can take home for $40-50k brand new.

I just joined Sailnet but theres such a divide between which boats are better. Me, I dream of a heavy disp boat for cruisng off shore down the carribean but I also love these Scandinavian boats for Lake use esp the Dragonfly tris. If they can make an updated DF1200 like Paulo said it would be the GOAT boat.

But as for another interesting sailboats I think we should include Fantasi Yachts. They make the best pilot house boats IMHO and is the best of all the Swedish Boatbuilders whilst very exclusive.

Fantasi 44


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> ...
> But as for another interesting sailboats I think we should include Fantasi Yachts. They make the best pilot house boats IMHO and is the best of all the Swedish Boatbuilders whilst very exclusive.
> 
> Fantasi 44
> .....


Yes, the Fantasi 44 DS is a very beautiful boat. I thought I had posted about it but I have posted not here but on a thread on sailnet about Deck saloons. It has one of the most beautiful interiors I know of.

I had the pleasure of sailing side by side with one. We passed the night on the same cove on an Island on the Galicia coast and we sailed out at the same time. The truth is that I wanted to see how it sailed. There was very little wind, 5 or 6K and even so the guy went sailing. True, slowly, but sailing. I could do a bit better on my boat but I was impressed with the Fantasi. The Fantasi is heavy and the sail area is nothing special but It was capable of doing almost the same speed of a lighter boat with a much better sail area/displacement. It should be alright over 9/10K wind and on the trade winds it should go really well.

The boat is really expensive, so expensive that they know only make them one by one when they have commands.

Take a look at the Fantasi 44. It is even more beautiful, a perfect classic with a great interior. But attention this boat as nothing to do with the e44, except looks. It Is like to compare a Bentley with a Bugati veyron 



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> A new boat of the kind I like: jpk 38fc
> This seems to be racing like fast and comfortable (relatively) at the same time. Up to now the JPKs where less cruising oriented. Different than the Pogo it seems to come with a decent interior and doors!
> And: They are already talking about the coming 42 ft version.
> 
> Longueur. . . . . . . . . . . 11,38 m
> Largeur. . . . . . . . . . . . .3,99 m
> Poids. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5,000 t
> Moteur Volvo. . . . . . . . . . 30 cv
> Lest. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1,900 t
> Tirant d'eau quillard. . . . . . . 2,15 m
> Tirant d'eau bi-quille. . . . . . . 1,75 m
> Voilure
> surface au près . . . . . . . . . . . . 80 m2
> Spi asymétrique. . . . . .130 m2
> 
> Nice to see the traveller at the real end, directly at the transom. So you can install a big bimini. Together with the two tillers this gives lots of living space in the cockpit.
> At the same time the interior looks interesting as well.
> 
> Ulf


So let's have a better look. 

The JPK has a boat that is sold not only for racing but also to the ones that like to cruise fast, the JPK 110.

JPK

The boat has a nice interior is fast and I like it a lot unfortunately the access to the storage spaces from the cockpit is bad. Even on the version with two cabins the access is made trough a small hatch. Not very practical to sail solo. You want to have everything you need at hand and not to go inside the boat to look for something on the storage space.

This one is better. I can see that on the cockpit deck it has a big storage space:










The boat with 5000kg and 80m2 of sail upwind and 130m2 downwind should go fast and easy. The draft is alright for cruising and 38% of B/D ratio, with all the ballast on a bulb at 2.15 should be enough for a good AVS and a good final stability. The boat big beam (form stability) and those 38% of B/D will give it a big initial stability and a lot of power, making it very stable.



















The boat has two rudders, two tillers and can have a twin keel (1.75m draft) or a mono keel (2.15 draft) and looks like a RM GT










As you say the running rigging, the position of the winches and traveler looks perfect but that was to be expected in a JPK. JPK is a great sailor and know were all things should be for an easy sailing. The boat will be a pleasure to sail solo.

In what regards the interior I am not very happy. I like more the one from the JPK 110. I am not a big fan of the galley in front of the saloon. Probably it has a bigger galley this way but the saloon loses a lot in my opinion, but this is just a personal taste. I know lots of people prefer this disposition.




























The interior seems to have the storage and the space needed for long distance cruising but it is too soon to talk about its quality or its design.

It looks great, even with that interior

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

PCP said:


> A Tayana over the e44? You don't like Crabbers because they are slow and you like the Tayana?
> 
> That makes no sense for someone that likes the Cigale and performance boats. I guess you are talking about the old 42 still in production? It has nothing to do the with the e44. This one only looks classic, it has the performances of a very fast modern performance boat.
> 
> The Tayana 42 is a 30 old design and sails like a 30 Years old slow boat. There is nothing wrong with that, there are guys that like sailing in old style but it does not add with liking boats like the Cigale or the Elan.
> 
> Regarding the Mystery it has nothing to do with the Crabbers and being a relatively fast boat cannot compare with the e44 that is way faster even taking into account the difference in side. I was referring likeness in style, not performance.
> 
> Compare the performance of the Mystery 35 with the performance of a First 35 or an Elan 350 and it will be clearly beaten in all points of sail. Compare the performance of the e 44 with a First 45 or a Salona 44 and I bet that the performance will be close and it is possible that the e44 prove faster close to the wind.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I was being sarcastic I'm liking your type of boats, not all of them but those French ones are awesome.

With regards to heavy boats at least with the Shannon, Walter Schultz being one of the true boatmens of our time made the boats truely easy to handle and its built like a tank w/o being so slow. Hes such a likable guy as well.

I'm starting to not like heavy boats, even the nice one like the Pacific Seacrafts, why would I take that for the same price as a Saare 41?? It boggles the mind.

And yes the Fantasi has nothing to do with the e44 because the Fantasi is on a different level. That interior of the 44 is better than my living room.


----------



## MikeWhy

Chimbatete, thanks for the Fantasi 44. That's without question the most liveable space I've seen yet. I love it that they broke the left-right symmetry (and the sea-Gods didn't smite it down). And, while not everyone will like losing the false modesty of the head partitions, I think it was a stroke of genius.


----------



## PCP

We have already talked about the new Arcona 410. Here are the first photos, only from outside.

It looks very good in a frontal view:










Not so well from the back or 3/4:




























The Dehler looks nicer...on the outside, on the inside I will bet on this one. We will see when we have both boats inside photos.


----------



## Capado

*Fox 10.20*



myocean said:


> Hi Capado!
> The FoX boats make a real good impression. I am seeing the 11.60 as a nice, more comfortable alternative to the Pogo 12.50. Very interesting!
> Can you let us know how much payload you actually have including crew and what speeds you achieve with that?
> Ulf


Hello,
Sorry to answer that late to this request.
We crossed the atlantic successfully with the Fox 10.20. Speed has often been good. Regarding Figaro 2 polars, we have often quicker with winds below 10 knots and above 16 knots. Between 10 and 16 knots, it was diffucult to keep the same VMG downwing as asymetrical does not allow for very low angles. 
The boat is quick to reach 9 knots, with surfs at 12 or 13 knots (depending on wave height). Concerning payload, as I am skippering the boat myself, we finished it and maintain it ourselves. I can not help you much on that.

You can check two videos of the crossing on:
YouTube - ‪Atlantique 2011.m4v‬‏
and 
YouTube - ‪Traversée Atlantique time laps.m4v‬‏

Obviously, the Fox 11.60 will be a bit more confortable and has a slightly higher average speed. 
The thing that the video does not show much is that we helmed the boat very few times, always with the big or fractional asymetrical up. Pilot was good enough to keep the boat fast.

Now it is good to go at 10 knots going down Sainte Lucia. We leave for the Grenadines so we'll get a full use of the lifting keel.

Regards


----------



## PCP

Capado said:


> ... Concerning payload, as I am skippering the boat myself, we finished it and maintain it ourselves. I can not help you much on that.
> 
> ..












Adien, Payload has nothing to do with money. What Ulf wants to know is what is the load your boat can carry without harming too much performance.

Nice to hear from you and to know everything worked alright with the boat and that you and your wife have made a safe and good crossing

Have fun and good winds.

Keep us posted about your voyage!

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Capado

Thanks for the explanation... oups!
We left with food for about a month, 260 L of water, 90 L of fuel and some books and all that you can imagine to go on a cruise. So basically, waterline at the start was 3cm higher than antifouling at bow and 1 cm above transom limit. So I'd think the total displacement was at 4.4 t but it is a lucky guess, I'd need to ask the architect. 
I did transfer the anchors aft to keep bow up, so at the end, the transom was even a bit deeper, which did not seem to harm too much. I think we were stickyer at 8 knots, but then the flow separation speed at transom came down was at 9.7 kts intead of 9.5 kts, so planning was almost the same. Top speed was less obviously...
Crossing has been quite easy weather wise, we were quite lucky considering the period. 17 days at sea and 17 days with a kite up, apart for 2 hours.

Regards and enjoy the videos...
Blog with the whole trip is: Le Voyage de Capado
unfortunately it is only in French.


----------



## PCP

Somme interesting in formations about the passage:

Transat time: 17 jours, 16 heures et 30 min.
Straight line distance: 2667 nm
Distance made: 2944 nm
Speed over the straight line: 6.28 kts
Speed over the course: 6.93 kts
Fuel consumption: 5 L
Water consumption: 130 L

Some comments:

It seems that the hydro-generator and the solar panels are enough to keep the batteries up. Even without solar panels and hidro-generator the 90L of fuel would be more than enough to recharge batteries.

They have only consumed half the water they had.

The two things put together mean that the boat has a large autonomy, more than enough for any crossing. The water seems to be the limit but they can join easily 100L of bottled water, if needed.

Almost 7K for 17 days in a row is very good for a cruising boat, for a 10m boat is truly outstanding.

This shows that these type of boats, that include the Pogo 10.50, have no problem in carrying the load needed for a Transat (if the sailors like a simple live).

I would say that this type and size of boat is good for two and a Pogo 12.50 would be able to carry a 4 crew across the pond with no problem.

This practical example is very en-lighting regarding a discussion we had some time back regarding the payload of this kind of boat and its ability to cruise extensively


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> It seems that the hydro-generator and the solar panels are enough to keep the batteries up.
> 
> This practical example is very en-lighting regarding a discussion we had some time back regarding the payload of this kind of boat and its ability to cruise extensively


This is indeed very interesting feedback about a long passage on a beamy, light displacement boat .

I saw that the Watt & Sea hydro-generator was used, quoted very effective with no measurable drag by Voiles & Voiliers, but also very expensive. 
If this is not too much out of topic, I wonder if Capado is happy with the value for money of this high-tech gear.

And, by yhe way, what magic did you use to make such wonderful, stable images with what looks like an extremely unstable camera perch .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## bobperry

I like your jib sheet arrangement. Simple, light and few holes in the deck.
Are you happy with it?


----------



## G1000

EricKLYC said:


> And, by yhe way, what magic did you use to make such wonderful, stable images with what looks like an extremely unstable camera perch


My guess it is GoPro HD GoPro Digital Cameras for Sports

Watt&Sea hydro-generator price 5.962 € d'Hydrogénérateur Watt&sea


----------



## Capado

Hello all,
Thanks PCP for the translation. 
About hydrogenerator, we are more than happy with it. although the price is high, our savings in fuel are already quite high and as we continue travelling the savings will keep on stacking up. Moreover, you don't feel guilty to use power as you won't then have to use fossile energy.
G1000 guessed right, it is effectively a GO PRO camera. We had the hydrogenerateur for 4700 € ex vAT. Let's say the price is negociable. 
Jib arrangement is fine, you just need to make sure your sail maker understands the system and, consequently, raises clew higher than the usual.
Then you can basically control clew height and in/out position by balancing tension between the outer and the inner hauler. For one trim of sheet, you can then fine tune by changing ring postion.
I think I might add some more demultiplication to reduce efforts on cleats. 
So yes, I am very happy with it. Moreover it has been very easy to install and cheaper than a track.

Best regards for Saint Vincent.


----------



## G1000

Capado said:


> ...it is effectively a GO PRO camera


Try GoPro with small kite, you will get amazing footages YouTube - ‪Dana 24 - GoPro‬‏


----------



## myocean

bobperry said:


> I like your jib sheet arrangement. Simple, light and few holes in the deck.
> Are you happy with it?


Is this the same like on the Pogo 12.50 as shown below?


----------



## Capado

Hello,
Yes it is the same principle, then of course, some details are different as you don't have the same loads.
Using a Kite with the Go Pro looks very promising.I have to try that soon. Thanks for the idea.


----------



## PCP

New boat, a racing one, a one design boat for what seems to be one of the more interesting and fast world series, the MOD 70. Several boats are already commissioned, two on the water and some of the world's best professional skippers are in.

Look at these images

YouTube - ‪The first meeting‬‏

the boat,

YouTube - ‪Number two‬‏

the concept:

YouTube - ‪Multi One Design 70 : Birth of a major trimaran‬‏


----------



## PCP

And an "old" but interesting racing boat, the Melges 32. Look at these images on the Audi sailing series...How!!!

YouTube - ‪Audi Sailing Series Melges 32 - Porto Cervo - Day 2‬‏


----------



## PCP

And another race, this one a veeery popular one, the Round the Island Race, with all kinds of interesting sailboats. With more than 1900 you have to have all kinds of sail boats. very nice movies with all kind of boats and the results can give us some base of comparison between boats for the race conditions: windy and with waves.

YouTube - ‪J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011 Start Vodcast‬‏

YouTube - ‪Start footage from the J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011‬‏

YouTube - ‪J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011 Needles heli footage‬‏

YouTube - ‪J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011 Back of Island action footage‬‏

As usual I am not interested in compensated results but in pure performance for size. For the record let me tell you that in compensated, among a multitude of racing boats, the winner was a Contessa 26 and that in the first 10 places there was 5 slow boats: the 4th, 8th and 9th were Folk boats and the 5th was a Laurent Giles 1984 wooden boat. This only means that those boats have a huuuuuge handicap and that work well under those circumstances.

Saying that the Contessa 26 time is unbelievably good with a real time of 8 hours and 19 minutes.

The fastest boat was a Multi50 class Trimaran with 3.50 and the fastest monohull a TP 52 with 4.43.

I hear lot's of guys saying that the TP 52 are downwind boats but this one has beaten clearly in real time a 2000 Farr 52, supposedly a better upwind boat (4.55).

Another interesting point: Several Class 40 racing. How do they perform in real time in mixed conditions compared with other 40ft boats?

Best class 40 a Akilaria with 6.36 than a Jumbo with 6.54 and a Pogo with 7.38. Not famous results if compared with other 40 racing boats: Ker 11.3 - 6.19; J 111 - 5.59; Benetau Figaro II - 6.36 and 6.44 . And even the best cruiser racers were able to do better or equal: King 40 - 6.03; Sydney 39 - 6.18; J 122 - 6.25 and 6.50; A40rc - 6.37; Ker 39 - 6.27; First 40 - 6.43 and 6.49; Comet 41 - 6.56; Elan 410 - 7.0 -7.0 and 7.42.

The conclusion I have taken some posts back regarding the performance of the 40 class boats seem accurate: They are unbeatable for their size on the trade winds in a Transat but put them in offshore coastal conditions and they are equal or slower comparing with more traditional boats.

Regarding cruising versions I think it will be the same, Pogo 12.50 versus First 40 or Salona 41. On coastal conditions the Pogo will not average a better speed.

More to come about more cruising oriented boats and the relative differences to performance boats.

Feel free to comment. I would be more than happy to discuss this. I am trying to have a justified opinion about the performance of different kinds of fast boats with different hull and ballast options.


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## Capado

Hello,

Last year, I did the Giraglia on A40 RC, maybe the best performing one in IRC at that time. As we were beating along in 25 knots, you could easily see the class 40 boats just passing by. Being lower but a hell of a lot faster. Then, we rounded a mark to attack some Downwind VMG in 30 knots. The few class 40 that were still behind at that point just passed by effortlessly. On the A40 RC, we were working the boat hard, pumping, grinding the spi hard and often swaping crew to not burn ourselves. The class 40 just passed by with Akite over trimmed and the guys having some food in the cockpit. Not at all the same scenario as we had. Eventually, wind slacked off completly and we could see the class 40s far ahead, they seamed sticky. But we never managed to get back to them.
We finished as first A40, ahead of the two first 40 that were competing, and just behing a Salona 42 that has a way better rating.
Then, the last tour of Corsica, I was on a Grand Soleil 40 BC with the full race kit. It has been a mostly light to very light race. No class 40 racing, but we faced a Class 9.50 (akilaria) and we just could not get rid of them. It was always next to us while being a hell of lot shorter. 
These observations reconforted me in my choice of beamy light displacement boat to go around. Appart from hard beating from 10 to 15 knots (depending on sea state), and VMG downwind in the same range, the wide and light is performing better and does not need as much work to be quick as a usual more cruising orientated boat. Class 40 often go with 4 crew while you'd need 11 people on a First 40 to get it around properly.
Then again, for the same budget as a class 40 you can get a longer "traditionnal" boat, so that is maybe when you can actually get performance / cash even.

Regards


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## PCP

Adrien, thanks for your insight that is certainly an informed one but as you can see by the results of that race there are conditions were the class 40 are beaten by cruiser racers. Very fast cruiser racers like the King 40 or the Ker 39 have beaten all class 40 by a considerable difference and more "normal" cruiser racers like the First 40, J 122 or A40rc made similar times.

On the two last Sydney to Hobart a Pogo class40 raced by a local racing crew that race the boat extensively for several years were beaten in real time by a First 40.

I think that there is no doubts that in some conditions traditional cruiser racers can be faster than pure racing boats like the class 40 and certainly faster that the cruiser versions that as you know don't have water ballasts. I believe, and the conditions on that races suggest, that happens in heavy seas and waves of considerable size and also when the percentage of upwind sailing is important.

Regarding your boat, I have said already that for travelling and eventually circumnavigate following the trade winds a boat like yours or a Pogo makes all the sense. I agree that a beamy boat with a large transom is more stable downwind and easier to sail, even on autopilot. The reverse is that a boat with a moderate beam like a First 40 or a Salona 41 will take a lesser pounding upwind and is at least as easy to sail on that position, if not easier.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Just to check I did have a look at last year results. The race was slower with less wind and waves. Actually this is a good race to measure overall sailing results. It is a complete tour of an Island in about seven hours so the chances is that you get wind from all directions.

Even with a slower race with less wind and waves the results were consistent with this year results:

The fastest 40class was an Akilaria 40 with 7.03 then a Jumbo 7.41 then a Pogo 7.47. On the top cruiser racers the fastest was a king 40 with 6.59 then a Ker 39 with 7.05 (another one made 7.33). On more "normal" cruiser racers a J122 made 7.07 another 7.08 an Elan 410 7.13, another 7.31. A First 40 made 7.12 another 7.27 and a A40rc made 7.16.

I had also a look at the Giraglia results (2011):

GIRAGLIA ROLEX CUP 2011

This year only two class 40 entered, one made 44.03 other 46 hours 59m. There was cruiser racers faster (real time) and others with similar times: the fastest a Millenium 40 with 45.25 a J122 with 45.44 another with 46.30, a Rimar 41.3 with 46.41 and a Salona 42 with 46.52.

Last year on the Giraglia offshore race I can only find a Class 40, a Pogo that made 48.39 and again a cruiser racer was faster, a J122 with 47.35 and several others made similar times: Dehler 39 - 48.40, Rimar 41.3 - 48.48, Hanse 400 - 48.48, A40-48.49.

You can download the results from the last PDF on this page:

Google


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## Capado

Hello,
The more upwind, the better is a narrow and heavy boat. No doubt about that. 
Looking at your conclusions, I have to admit I am quite surprised. I guess I'll have to race the Fox 10.20, and see by myself how this goes. It could be interesting..... I guess I'll need new sails by the time I reach Sydney.


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## bb74

Interesting info on the race results. Obviously there are rules and exceptions. With the race performance of the smaller boats it looks like they know that area like the back of their hand and can take advantage of it.

This year based on feedback there was about 25 kts on the nose for the first 13 miles, running against the current of about 2 kts. 2nd leg downwind for 13 miles with @ 135° to the wind with about 25kts, next two legs downwind 5 miles each with winds in 20-25 kts and tide weakening. Then 4 miles leg wind at about 70%, then 12 miles with the wind on the nose, slack going to running with the current. Wind in 12-15 kts.

30 miles upwind of which 13 against a strong current, 20 miles downwind. Your VMG get's killed on the designs that don't point into the 35° with that type of current. I would "imagine" if you look at the race stage by stage, you see that the planing designs got hammered on the first leg and held their own after. 

Not making excuses because I'm not concerned one way or another but 8 hours for 50 NM straight line - figure well over 70nm with the tacks is still >8 kts average for a 40 footer. I don't know who was crewing on either nor the kit sail wise but that's a major factor as we all know. I bet the logs on the narrower boats show less NM because they can point better on those 2 upwind legs.

Congrats to the "little guys" for their performance.


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## PCP

BB74, thanks for the additional information about the weather and wind on the Round the Island race. Tomorrow I will post some information comparing the performance of the cruiser racers with the performance of the cruisers. This race has so many boats involved that is an invaluable source of information to compare the real performance of different sailboat types. That's true that the crew is fundamental for the performance but when we have several similar boats with identical performance conclusions can be taken.


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## PCP

So let's look at the cruiser boat times having as reference the times of the two best Class 40 (between 6.36 and 6.54) and the times of the fastest cruiser-racers (J122 -6.25; Sydney 39 - 6.18; Ker 39- 6.27; A40 rc - 6.37; First 40 6.49).

Curiously there was two OVNIS there and as there was some discussion on this thread about their performance their comparative results are interesting: OVNI 435 - 8.10; OVMI 39 5- 8.59. Very good if we consider that these ate aluminum center boarders and that is worst sailing position is upwind sailing. A Southerly 46RS (8.07) a swing keel boat but with ballast on the keel did not so good (I would expect the boat to be much faster than the OVNI 435).

Other unexpected good performances taking into account the sea and wind conditions: Jeanneau 36i - 8.00; Dufour 405 - 8.21; Oceanis 40 - 8.36; Hanse 400 -8.12; Jeanneau SO 42i - 7.50; Jeanneau 54DS 7.50; Jeanneau 49DS 8.07; Bavaria 46 - 8.12. 

Of course we don't know how good was the crew and if the boat was sailed to its potential. Some of those boats had more sisters racing and they got remarkably worst results so I guess they were well sailed: The second jeanneau 36i -10.41 (lot's of Bavarias 36 faster than that 9.23, 9.24 and so on) , the second Hanse 400 - 8.49, the second best Oceanis 40 -9.54.

Let's see how these times compare with good and fast medium weight cruisers, taking into attention that the conditions were favorable for them: Contessa 35 -9.36; Najad 380 - 9.04; Comfortina 42 - 8.21; Bowman 42 -8.02.

Let's see how these times compare with smaller performance cruisers:
Elan 31 - 8.06; First 35 -6.43 (almost as fast as the fastest 40class boat), another with 7.08; A35 - 7.12; J109 -7.02 - 7.10 - 7.13 - 7.15; Elan 350 - 7.08, Elan 380 - 7.29 - ; Arcona 370 - 7.54 -8.40; Dehler 39 -7.39 - 8.08.

Some other interesting results, the Hammerhead 35, a boat with a swing keel that was discussed on this thread, show that with all that technology was slower than less sophisticated and less expensive 35 ft boats. The JP 52, also posted in this thread (a kind of smaller Open60 cruising boat) kick ass with 5.15, the Grand Soleil 43 has done very well (6.43 and 6.45) as well as the Arcona 430 - 6.44 (both boats are on the thread). We all know that the J 133 is a fast boat : 6.37 - 6.59 with comparable results with a Class 40.

Finally the multihulls that with unfavorable conditions have showed that they can go, even with waves and mostly against the wind, faster than much bigger monohulls. I have already mentioned the scratch winner, a racing Multi50 (the one you can have in a cruising version, mentioned some posts back) with 3.50 and the cruising ones: Dragonfly 920 - 5.45; Farrier 27 - 6.00; Dragonfly 28 - 6.09; Corsair Dash 750 - 6.19.

A last word for the cruiser racers of another era, the Contessas that in these sea and wind conditions performed admirably well: The winner, a Contessa 26 with 8.19 and the 32's with 8.08 - 8.08 - 8.09. If we compare their results with the ones from the J 80 we can see that there is not a big difference: 7.28 - 7.28 - 7.51.

Comments please? I would like to know what you think about these results.

Regards

Paulo


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## EricKLYC

These results are indeed somewhat suprising. Class 40's being built following only a "box rule" without any handicap concerns, one should expect they perform best in real time. 

I think one thing is for sure: upwind class 40's and consorts will not do better and may be worse than less beamy cruiser-racers. And because of their very light weight they then are less comfortable in an seaway, especially in wind-against-tide conditions. I only thought that bearing down just a little would improve this without compromising VMG but these results seem to contradict this thumb rule.

But I also think there is little doubt that light, beamy and twin ruddered boats like the class 40's will perform better at any other wind angle. If not in speed, then most certainly in comfort and control. 
I had the same experience Capado described on a Pogo 10.50: while others where struggling at the winches and on the rail to keep both boat and spinaker in control, we passed by having tea on autopilot.

As stated again and again on this thread: it all comes down to choices and the right compromise.

Kind regards,

Eric


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## PCP

Capado said:


> Hello,
> The more upwind, the better is a narrow and heavy boat. No doubt about that.
> Looking at your conclusions, I have to admit I am quite surprised. I guess I'll have to race the Fox 10.20, and see by myself how this goes. It could be interesting..... I guess I'll need new sails by the time I reach Sydney.


Yes I would be very interested in seeing how the Fox 10.20 would go on an offshore race. That boat is different from the Pogo, not only the hull but mostly the beam, with a significant difference. The Fox 10.20 has 3.60m the Pogo 10.50 has 3.90. Probably the B/D ratio (both boats with 1.95 drafts) is close and around 35%. Probably that will give the Pogo a bigger stability (more form stability) and will make it slightly better downwind but the Fox should be better upwind.

Maybe your time in Australia coincides with the Sydney-Hobart I am sure you would like to do that and it would give a lot of publicity to the boat.

Regarding the Class 40 performance we tend to think that it is pretty much an open boat with some limitations concerning making it affordable and I think that was the intention but the Box rule as a snag in it that condition the shape of the boat and greatly limit the designer options: Regarding stability the boat at 90º of heel has to make a righting force of at least 235kgf and a maximum force of 320kg.

The minimum force has to do with safety measures, giving it the ability to recover easily from a knock out but the max force has to do with giving all the boats a similar stability and that has to do with a similar sail performance.

This way of measuring the max righting force for performance purposes limits the choice of the type of boat and don't make any sense to me. Measuring the Max righting force at 90º will give only one option to the designer: To increase form stability (beam) and to limit the boat ballast to a minimum. Why? Because increasing sail power with form stability has no effect in the force the boat makes to right itself up at 90º while increasing sail power with ballast has a direct effect in that measure at 90º.

This does not make any sense because limits the choice of the type of boats regarding pure performance and because it is stupid to limit final stability. At 90º on an offshore boat you will want to have all the righting force you can at 90º. It will never be too much.

For limiting righting force for performance purposes the force should be measured at 25 or 30º not at 90º.

We tend to think that a 40class boat is the best shape for an offshore boat assuming wrongly that the designers can pretty much design what they want and that is just the better compromise because it is what they all design but it is not so and evidence on offshore races with varied winds show that those boats overall performance is inferior to other 40ft racing boats that are not limited by that senseless rule.

The 40 class boats have a similar overall performance with fast cruiser racers like the J122, Ker 39, King 40, First 40 (and are often beaten by them) and have a very significant inferior overall performance compared with the fastest racing 40ft, like the Farr 400 or the ker 40.

On the Round the Island Race, a race with varied winds, even a smaller racing boat, a single Ker 11.3 has beaten every year (I have saw in the last 3) very clearly and without any doubt four class 40 . The races had very different weather patterns, the last with stronger winds on 2010 with medium to light winds and on 2009 with light winds.

With light winds all the Class 40 were also beaten very clearly by a 37 cruiser racer, a Santa Cruz 37 (the fastest 40class by 17 minutes).

Ker Design

On 2011: Ker 11.3 - 6.20 The fastest 40class - 6.36. *On this one raced also a racing Ker 40 - 5.53 (look at the difference).*

On 2010 Ker 11.3 - 7.12 The fastest 40class - 7.41

On 2009 Ker 11.3 - 9.48 The fastest 40class - 10.10

And we are talking about the performance of a single boat against the best performance of four, which makes a big difference.

All these boats(that are faster than a class 40) have one thing in common, a moderate beam, are heavier and have a much bigger B/D ratio, in some cases almost half the weight of the boat is on the keel. They are heavier but they are faster.

I know that downwind a beamy boat with the beam brought aft is more stable and easier to sail solo but I doubt that it will be easier to sail upwind, probably quite the contrary. It is really a shame that the Box rule for the 40 Class would not allow different kinds of hulls to be competitive. I would like to see what is really the fastest type of 40ft, for solo sailing or short crew sailing, a boat like the 40 class or a less beamy boat with a bigger B/D ratio.

Regards

Paulo


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## EricKLYC

So even box rules include stupidities to limit performance (and safety!), which is exactly what they are supposed to avoid.
Another valuable lesson learned, Paulo.


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## Aac

The results seem intuitive. A hull with a lot of form stability at the expense of ballast stability will heel more on the slopes of swells and this has the greatest effect when going to windward. I also guess that fat boats in a 2m sea state may pitch more spilling energy.

Righting moment increases by the sine of the healing angle thus at 30 degrees of heel you have 0.5 times the keel righting moment that you have at 90 degrees; at 20 degrees you have 0.34 times. Thus boats with deep heavy keels have a significant amount of righting moment even at 20 degrees of heel. A 2000Kg bulb at 3 meters depth equates to 6000 kg m of righting moment at 90 degrees.

The new Farr 400 http://www.farrdesign.com/FYS/724_Farr_400/specs_detailed.pdf has a ballast of 2464Kg and a draft of 2.9m; the boat itself weighs 1666Kg. With a beam of only 3.42m this makes for a very high performace boat indeed.

Most manufactures give total ballast weight which includes the keel; the keel itself being around 20 to 30% of the total ballast weight.

Excessive boat weight minus ballast is always a negative in my mind which is important even in cruising boats. The typical 40ft racer/cruiser gives about 1000kg difference between design weight and light displacement. Not much once water and fuel is considered. Saving 500Kg (light furniture for example) would give 50% more carrying capacity. And if the boat is too light then take more water or make the boat unsinkable with foam or put some layers of Kevlar in the hull.

And as I have noted before righting moment at 90 degrees divided by "Boat weight minus ballast" is, a good first approximation of the performance characteristics of a boat with performance increasing as the ratio gets larger - just an opinion.


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## PCP

Thanks Erick, I look at it that way, I hope I am not wrong.

Too much talk Time for a boat and an American one that is a favorite among the European that like to race, the Summit 40.









































































A beauty isn't it?

The hull shape is not far away from the Salona 41 (the Salona 41 has more beam and less ballast) that someone on this thread have called "old fashioned" 

This boat is practically the King 40 made in the States by Summit yachts.

When Summit yachts went to Mark Mills (an Irish designer) and ask him to design the ultimate IRC racer, Mills told them that he had already done that and that the boat was winning everywhere, it was the King 40 (one of the boats that have beaten all the class 40 on the last Round the Island race).

So I guess that Summit Yachts had bought the licence to the Argentinians that were manufacturing the King 40 (King Marine) and introducing some very small modifications suggested by Mills, called it the Summit 40:

"The design is based on Mark Mills design for Summit Yachts and originally built by King Marine.

It is arguably the most successful IRC 40 internationally in the last two years.

... On the design side specifically, Mills Design has made subtle changes to the keel fin, bulb, and rudder. The keel will be a bit more forgiving coming out of down speed tacks and will improve acceleration, especially in light air and chop. The bulb has been slightly reduced in wetted surface area, and now allows a slight alteration in weight and draft for more aggressive programs ...

The rudder area and planform remain virtually the same, but the redistribution of volume along the chord will keep flow attached longer and improve heavy air control.

The new keel fin has a provision to add 65mm (2-1/2") of extra draft and another 255 pounds (115.6 kg) of ballast. Moving the bulb down and increasing its weight will increase righting moment. The weight savings in rig, gear and equipment will still mean an all up lighter boat with more ballast and 
a lower VCG, higher RM: all going in the right direction. ...

One area where improvements always yield better performance is the rig. We have made significant changes here. First, there are no longer any standard aluminum components in the rig. The entire structure is carbon. Along with this, the mast will be built by Southern Spars and will have better structural properties, and detailing. Specifically, the standard Southern rig will be 55 pounds (24.9 kg) lighter than the previous rig. An internal hydraulic mast jack is now standard. The standing rigging is stainless rod from Rig Pro, and it has significant upgrades in fittings and details. All together the new Southern Spars rig will be a significant improvement over the previous rig in stiffness, windage, and weight."










The boat weights 7100kg has a moderate beam (3.7m) a big draft 2.51m and 3 300kg of ballast, 2500kg on the bulb. The boat has a B/D of 46%.

Compare it with the one from the Pogo 10.50: 36% and remember that the one from the Pogo is at 1.95m and this one is at 2.5m. This huge difference is needed because while most of the stability for sailing in the Pogo (or in a 40 class) comes from form stability here it comes from form stability but also from the ballast.

This way of providing stability for sailing has a very positive effect on the safety stability, AVS and inverted stability that in this boat will be much better than in a 40 class boat. This boat would not pass that 40class test with the boat at 90º. This one will make a lot more force to right itself up than the maximum that is allowed on a 40 class boat.


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## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> These results are indeed somewhat suprising. Class 40's being built following only a "box rule" without any handicap concerns, one should expect they perform best in real time.
> 
> I think one thing is for sure: upwind class 40's and consorts will not do better and may be worse than less beamy cruiser-racers. And because of their very light weight they then are less comfortable in an seaway, especially in wind-against-tide conditions. I only thought that bearing down just a little would improve this without compromising VMG but these results seem to contradict this thumb rule.
> 
> But I also think there is little doubt that light, beamy and twin ruddered boats like the class 40's will perform better at any other wind angle. If not in speed, then most certainly in comfort and control.
> I had the same experience Capado described on a Pogo 10.50: while others where struggling at the winches and on the rail to keep both boat and spinaker in control, we passed by having tea on autopilot.
> 
> As stated again and again on this thread: it all comes down to choices and the right compromise.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Eric


Eric,
the last posts may induce some in error regarding the seaworthiness and safety of class 40 and Pogo cruisers. Not what I meant.

As I have said before Pogo cruisers and Class 40 have a good AVS and a good safety stability, by modern standards. A boat like the KING 40 or the KER 39 would have even a better one but if we compare the Pogo with a Benetau Oceanis a Dufour Grand large, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Hanse the Pogo will have a better AVS and a better final stability and most of all a much better dynamic stability.

I have said that the Pogo 10.50 has an B/D ratio of 36% in a 1.95 bulbed keel, while a Benetau Oceanis 40 has 25% with a similar draft keel. Even some cruiser-racers, that have generally a better B/D better than the cruising versions go as low as 30% (Dufour 40e).

Regarding boats like the Pogo its big advantage is really downwind sailing and not only in what regards speed but easiness. It is simple to understand why:

The boat is lighter because has not to carry as much ballast as a King 40 type of boat ( less form stability) and as much of the stability comes from form works since very small angles of heel. If you go downwind on a Pogo and the boat gets unbalanced the form stability will provide the force to counteract that without almost any heeling. Besides being wide provides a better weight distribution and makes it easier to plan.

On a narrower boat that relies more on ballast the same unbalance will need a lot more heel to generate the force to be counterbalanced. But heel downwind is a treacherous thing. When the boat heels it generates more unbalances.

Those that are used to row a a kayak now that if the unbalance that is created while rowing is not immediately counteracted and the bow starts to swing than it will be needed a lot more force to bring it back. On a sailing boat when the boat heels and the bow starts to swing it is needed a sharp correction, otherwise it can pass the point the rudder has the power to correct and a broach will follow.

These makes a beamy boat, with the beam brought back a lot more stable and easy to sail downwind (form stability). And not only because of that but also because a narrow boat with a lot of ballast, that needs some heeling to counteract any unbalance, will tend to heel from side to side, like a pendulum, situation that can be aggravated by waves in synchronicity.

While a boat like the Pogo will naturally kill that movement absorbing it with form stability (that does not need any significant heel to act) a narrow boat will need heel for counteract each movement and the form stability can be not enough to stop that movement. A good hand at the wheel can be needed while on the Pogo an autopilot it will be enough.

As you have said before it is all about choices and the right compromises: How much should one abdicate for a good upwind and more comfortable performance to a good downwind performance?

As you can see the answers, even in what concerns performance boats come in very different ways: From boats like the Pogo that for a 40ft has a 4.5m beam to boats like the Luffe 4004 with 3.4m. The combinations of beam/Ballast/weight are also very different and not all narrow boats have very high B/D, and some medium beam boats have very high B/D ratios, like the King 40/Summit 40.

Most of all his important to know what to expect from each combination because only that way we can chose the boat that we find more fit to our program or to our sailing pleasure.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

For those that like the Pogo 10.50 (and that includes me) some good news:

A new version a lot less expensive, they call it Transquadra and it will cost 135 000 € with 19.6% VAT included. The boat has a fixed keel with 1.99m and an aluminum mast.





































Another Pogo is coming, a 9/9.5m boat that can have or not a swing keel. The target price is 80 000€.


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## PCP

So it seems that a 40 class boat is not as an open design as we thought. I have posted some time back about an open design, a boat that was designed without any regard to any handicap rules or box rules, the Soto 40, designed by Soto Acerbal for two Argentinians pissed with handicap racing. The boat uses not high technology (carbon) to be affordable and is probably the top racing boat that have experienced in the last year the biggest expansion in one class series all over the world. No doubt, a dam fast boat, upwind and downwind.

Let's have a second look:



















Looks beamy. Well it is not. a 40class racer has 4.50m, this one has 3.75m.










compare it with a 40class:










Both boats have the beam brought back but the difference in beam is huge.

Both boats have about 2200kg of ballast but the Class 40 in a bulb at 3.0m and the Soto 40 also in a bulb but at 2.60m. The Class 40 has liquid ballasts, the Soto 40 has also movable ballast with about the same weight (the crew). I guess we could substitute that crew by liquid ballast.

The weight of both boats is close, a bit better on the Soto: 4200 to 4500kg.

The Soto carries 88m2 of sail upwind, a 40class 118m2 (the 40 class has a superior righting moment).

Less sail and all, the Soto will have a much better performance upwind and in a mixed wind race, like most offshore races, the Soto will fly away (I guess the performance would not be very far away from the Ker 40 one, and on the race I referred on a previous post that difference was 5.53 to 6.36).

On a "normal" transat with lots of downwind sailing and strong and medium winds the Class 40 will be probably faster. But mind you, the Soto is no sluch downwind and can easily make over 20K speed with strong winds. Take a look:

YouTube - ‪MedCup Soto 40 action‬‏

The Soto is really a fast good looking boat. I wonder about a cruising boat based on that hull, well maybe someday Soto Acerbal will do it.


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## MikeWhy

PCP said:


> [Summit 40]
> A beauty isn't it?


It's absolutely stunning, inside and out. I love the open interior plan, but wonder about the lack of compression post. The interior photo doesn't show what they might have done with the deck structure (presumably centered above the foldaway table). Or did they just leave it out for illustration purposes?

But, I likely needn't concern myself with these pithy details,  since the likelihood of me owning one seems nil at the moment. (Any idea of its pricing?)

[Edit: oops. the photo is looking aft, probably taken from directly in front of the compression post.]


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## PCP

MikeWhy said:


> It's absolutely stunning, inside and out. I love the open interior plan, but wonder about the lack of compression post. T...
> But, I likely needn't concern myself with these pithy details,  since the likelihood of me owning one seems nil at the moment. (Any idea of its pricing?)
> 
> ...


An idea yes, EXPENSIVE, but not much more than a J122 that is also expensive. They talk about competitive prices but a boat like that has to be expensive.

Here you have a 2008 King 40 (basically the same boat made by another builder) by USD 400 000. The boat has lot's of racing sails but I would say that a basic Summit 40 without sails would not cost less.

Summit King 40 used boat for sale. The Yacht Market online boat sales and charters.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

New boat, this one is a deck saloon and one of the best to circumnavigate (or to travel extensively) with all the luxury, washing machine and all.

It is not cheap but probably not much more than an HR of the same size; its the Nordship 43. This boat comes to substitute the old 43. The interior is not much different but the sailing boat potential is. The old one needed a good breeze to really shine, this one will sail remarkably well even in light winds with the help of a geenaker. It is not so heavy and has a remarkably modern underbody. Have a look:














































They say about the boat:

"Nordship 430 DS has like its smaller sisters a modern underwater hull with torpedo keel and free standing spade rudder. The rig is changed to a fraction rig and is 75 cm higher than the one on Nordship 43 DS which provide it much more sporty sailing performance than the previous Nordship 43.

The Decks layout is like the Nordship 43 DS, with 2 separate cockpits, a self-tacking jib and all lines lead back to the cockpit, which makes this model ideal to sail single handed.

The windows in the deck-saloon are made in the same design as the ones in the rest of the range. Can also be delivered with doublet glassing.

The interior is kept as in the Nordship 43 DS, but with the possibility of individually solutions. In the First Nordship 430 DS the customer have decided on a large forward cabin and large pantry, at the cost of the side cabin. In a yacht of this size the possibilities are almost endless."

Nordship


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## PCP

Some interesting information about best average speed on fast cruising boats, the type that is based on the 40class boats. The average regards downwind sailing on the trade winds, the thing these boats were designed to do best.

The data was picked up by a guy (in a French forum) in Horta, Açores from French sailors that were passing by making transatlantic crossings.

Best 24h:

Opium 39 - 190nm

Cigale 14 - 200nm

But the best average speed comes from a Pogo 10.50 with a very experienced couple aboard (61 et 59 year's old): From Portugal to Porto Santo (Madeira, Portugal) with an average speed of 8.2K. Chapeau

They have an interesting site (French):

Mora Mora


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## PCP

I have found a nice photo and some interesting comments about it. The photo *was taken in the last Round the Island Race and shows the sea conditions. The boat is an Elan 40*.










Comments from the guy that had taken the photo:

"Was a slightly scary moment - they held that wave for ages, enough time for us to notice and get the camera out! They came from about 200 yards back and nearly wound up in our cockpit! I've never seen such a heavy boat surf like that before!

And what you can't see is that there was another boat on the same wave! Sadly the only photo of both of them is very out of focus."

Comments from a guy on the Elan 40:

We were on this boat in question - an Elan 40. Conditions were testing - the wind had already put a tear into our mainsail down the leach line. This was a huge swell that kept on going of St Catherines Point that came out of nowhere. It was just as fun/hairy/exciting as it looks! Speed jumped from 8 knots to 16.9 knots.


----------



## PCP

First photos of the CR 380DS. Not yet finished but almost. It looks great on the outside, remarkably elegant for a 38ft Deck saloon and with a oak interior. The galley seems very good for a 38ft.

This is going to be a fast boat. The boat is light (6800kg), has a lot of sail area (78m2) and has more 200kg of ballast than an Beneteau oceanis 43...and this is only a 38ft. The hull is very modern, designed by Stephen Jones, narrow but with the beam brought back.


----------



## blt2ski

THere are two new Jeanneau's coming online, a 42DS out of the 439 hull, and a 509? may need to go relook at my source. I am recalling another size too! Been out of town the last 5 days on the boat. Saw the new ones with limited access. Will figure out in the next day or so now that I am home with links.

The king/summit 40 was that builder/designers boat for the NY YC clubs bid for a new 1D boat for their owners etc. The Swan Club 42 was who won the bid. Not sure WHERE this fell in the overall scheme of what NYYC choose for a club boat. Not sure off the top of my head what the other builder/designers were bidding on that min order of 50 boats, ie first 50 went to club members, had to be under 500K US$ base.

Marty


----------



## PCP

Thanks Marty. Did not hear nothing about a new 42 DS. Keep us posted

Bad news, it seems that the last posts including a big one about the nominated boats for the European boat of the year contest and some replies (bb74) and some more posts were lost

While I gather patience to put that post up again, stay with some really big sailboats:




























http://www.lobanov.co.uk/#

And some more "normal" ones, but not less interesting


----------



## treb001

Concentrate on the meat and potatoes. The hull, machinery and rigging. The rest is superficial.


----------



## PCP

Here we go again, Jesus, this was a big one

The boats nominated for European boat of the year 2012 contest were announced:

On the *Performance cruiser sailboat category* many interesting boats, most of them already posted on this thread.








Pogo 12.50








XP44








Grand Soleil 50








Dehler 41








J111

Some of these boats have already been tested by some magazines and they are going to be extensively tested by all the main European sailboat magazines. I am very curious about the Dehler 41. I know that the Pogo and the XP44 are great sailboats and the Grand Soleil looks just beautiful and they are normally very fast. Only the J111 seems a bit out of place here and it is a pity because it is a great boat, but more a race boat than a performance cruiser. I don't really understand why they did not put it on the Special sailboat category.

Nominated for the *Family Cruiser category*:








Benetau Oceanis 45








Dufour 445








Jeanneau 376








Elan 210








RM 1060

Most of these were also posted on the thread. Like the J111 I think that the Elan 210 should not be here. This is a performance boat and should be among those not here, or are they discriminating based on size . It can go faster than a lot of much bigger boats. Regarding the others, the Oceanis is too plain, the Jeanneau 376 looks a not so nice 409 clone and I think the winner is going to be or the Dufour or the RM. The Dufour comes in the continuity of the 425, a great boat, but seems even better and nicer and the RM bets on the innovation, but some youth problems (heavy steering an unappealing interior) can compromise its position against a Dufour here everything seems right.

Make your bets!!!

Tomorrow I will post about the other two caregories


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> Some interesting information about best average speed on fast cruising boats, the type that is based on the 40class boats. The average regards downwind sailing on the trade winds, the thing these boats were designed to do best.
> 
> The data was picked up by a guy (in a French forum) in Horta, Açores from French sailors that were passing by making transatlantic crossings.
> 
> Best 24h:
> 
> Opium 39 - 190nm
> 
> Cigale 14 - 200nm
> 
> But the best average speed comes from a Pogo 10.50 with a very experienced couple aboard (61 et 59 year's old): From Portugal to Porto Santo (Madeira, Portugal) with an average speed of 8.2K. Chapeau
> 
> They have an interesting site (French):
> 
> Mora Mora


Well, my personal take on this SN blackout is that PCP hacked the system to remove this vessel Freya 39 Review : Bluewaterboats.org from the thread :laugher:laugher:laugher.
I find it interresting that such an "outdated " design can knock off as many miles as the modern racers/cruisers mentioned above. And propably a lot more comfortably....


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Well, my personal take on this SN blackout is that PCP hacked the system to remove this vessel Freya 39 Review : Bluewaterboats.org from the thread :laugher:laugher:laugher.
> I find it interresting that such an "outdated " design can knock off as many miles as the modern racers/cruisers mentioned above. And propably a lot more comfortably....


Well, I think we can consider the Freya 39 as a classic even if it is not properly what we would call a classic boat but I agree that is still a good looking boat. Regarding performance the boat is only interesting on a historical perspective.



















The Freya 39 was 40 years ago a very fast boat and still is not a slow boat for a long keeler but makes no sense any comparison with a modern performance boat.

The boat is obviously a displacement boat and has a hull speed of 7.8K. At that speed over 24h we will get 187,2K. It will be pretty difficult to get that and eventually in absolutely perfect conditions downwind the boat can sail slightly over hull speed and make the 8.3K needed to make 200 nm in a day. Almost a miracle but in a boat that has more than 40 years of sailing around the globe I guess that can happen some times among all the boats.

But of course, given those perfect conditions a Cigale 14 will be making 360 nm a day and the Opium 39 will be making over 300nm a day. On the post where those averages (200nm) were posted it was said that a guy in a Pogo 10.50, a much smaller boat had averaged for several days 199nm. Not once in a life time, but several days in a row in a single voyage, in fact in all the days of that passage. Nothing to do with the very rare possibility of a Freya 39 doing 200nm in a day in a lifetime.

When I have posted that a guy had said that a Cigale 14 and a Opium 39 that had passed by Horta (Azores) had made as best average on that voyage 200nm I was not referring the best average of that boat, just saying that with that type of boats is really easy to make 200nm a day on the trade winds.

The boat pictured in the photo has done a lot of Atlantic crossings and a proud owner says that the fastest has taken 19 days. Adrien on the Capado, a FOX 10.20. a much smaller boat took 17 days on is FIRST crossing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

Paulo,
I'm not trying to argue the speed potential of modern designs, but the reality while cruising long distances. Also, the hullspeed you calculated is with the waterline at rest, not heeling... 
But, let's cut right through polars and theory, and take a look at the Sydney Hobart line honours 2010 compared to 1964. 
The Freya beat: First 40, Pogo 40 , X43, Salona 44 retired, and the list goes on..
The same goes for 2009 and 2008. The Freya was between 4d01hr to 4d15hr in a 3 year stretch. Take a look at all the boats, not able to make that time today. The list is full of rockets. Granted, conditions play a roll, but they do while cruising as well.
Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2010..
Honestly, not my dreamboat, but a fast one even by todays standards, and solid as a rock.
Give credit where credit is due....
Sorry for the sidetrack.

Bernd


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> and the RM bets on the innovation, but some youth problems (heavy steering an unappealing interior)


I have a different opinion about the RM 1060 interior. From my point of view this is very convenient, easy to clean, lightweight and has a modern styling leaving away all the dark wood which is so common.The round edges are a good safety feature. I like it! 
I can imagine that even the new RM 1260 will come with such an interior.


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Paulo,
> ...
> But, let's cut right through polars and theory, and take a look at the Sydney Hobart line honours 2010 compared to 1964.
> The Freya beat: First 40, Pogo 40 , X43, Salona 44 retired, and the list goes on..
> The same goes for 2009 and 2008. The Freya was between 4d01hr to 4d15hr in a 3 year stretch. Take a look at all the boats, not able to make that time today. The list is full of rockets. Granted, conditions play a roll, but they do while cruising as well.
> Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2010..
> Honestly, not my dreamboat, but a fast one even by todays standards, and solid as a rock.
> Give credit where credit is due....
> Sorry for the sidetrack.
> 
> Bernd


Bernd, I was looking for a Freya on the 2010 edition of SH but obviously there is not one. I couldn't believe you were comparing results of two different races .

That does not make any sense, wind and sea conditions vary widely and it is no unusual times that are almost the double between two races. Saying that a Freya beaten a First 40 or a Pogo 40 referring the times in two different races is absurd. I could beat any racing sailboat with a Bavaria 36 given the right weather: No wind for the other boats, 20k on the quarter for me

The fact remains that Freya 39 performance (not considering any handicap) as a race boat has only a historic relevance, otherwise you woulds have a lot of boats like the Freya trying to win the Sydney-Hobart race today. The boats that make today the better time in real time for a given length are the fastest boats.

About what a Freya 39 is worth today have a look at this results of a 3th rate race with old boats. I mean even the "modern" boats are old:

Winter Series 2010 A Class Race Results

Here you can see that the Freya 39 is regularly beaten by a Beneteau 32.5 and by a Beneteau 32 (not even a First). You can also see that the Freya 39 is consistently the slowest boat even if most of the boats are smaller and none is a recent cruiser racer.

This is not the place to pursue this kind of discussion. There is a thread were old boat performance is compared with modern boat performance, something like "bluewater boats that sail well with light wind" or something like that.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> I have a different opinion about the RM 1060 interior. From my point of view this is very convenient, easy to clean, lightweight and has a modern styling leaving away all the dark wood which is so common.The round edges are a good safety feature. I like it!
> I can imagine that even the new RM 1260 will come with such an interior.


Well, I guess that we cannot have all the same taste. That all light grey interior looks too clean for me, like something out of an hospital

I prefer the interior of the "old" 1200, a lot warmer for my taste, or the one from the Opium 39, with all that teak:


----------



## myocean

Yes, but that is not Pogo but Opium.


----------



## PCP

More nominated boats for this year's European boat contest. This ones are for the *Luxury cruisers* category and that is another way of saying non budget cruisers or the kind of boats we all dream about but that only few have the means to have








Sense 50








Sense 50








Sense50








Sense 50








Sense 50








Halberg-Rassy 64








HR64








HR 64








HR 64

















Amel 64








Amel 64








Amel 64








Amel 64








Oyster 625








Oyster 625








Oyster 625








Oyster 625








Oyster 625








Bestewind 50








BW50








BW 50








BW50








BW50








BW50

*No, suppose you can have one of those for free, what would be your choice?*


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> Bernd, I was looking for a Freya on the 2010 edition of SH but obviously there is not one. I couldn't believe you were comparing results of two different races .
> 
> That does not make any sense, wind and sea conditions vary widely and it is no unusual times that are almost the double between two races. Saying that a Freya beaten a First 40 or a Pogo 40 referring the times in two different races is absurd. I could beat any racing sailboat with a Bavaria 36 given the right weather: No wind for the other boats, 20k on the quarter for me


Paulo,
Yes, it could quite possibly be absurd to do that. But I was merely using the same "absurd" reasoning YOU did in comparing Capado's (one) Transat time with that of s/v Foxglove. Two differrent Transats... 
I tried to provide more statistical samples of the same leg to look at averages.
But, you are correct, this is not the thread for this discussion. 
I have contacted a few Freya 39 owners for their input/ averages, and will pm you with my findings, if it is of interrest to you. 
Now back to Pogos, err... Opiums. 
Bernd


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Paulo,
> Yes, it could quite possibly be absurd to do that. But I was merely using the same "absurd" reasoning YOU did in comparing Capado's (one) Transat time with that of s/v Foxglove. Two differrent Transats...
> ....
> Bernd


Yes, not the best comparison but not the same thing. The Freya 39 owner that I quoted said:

"As a cruising yacht Foxglove...She ... has a surprising turn of speed when sailed well. Her best time across the atlantic - which she has crossed many times - is 19 days. Not bad for an old girl."

Foxy - The Voyage of Foxglove

The owner said that the boat crossed many times and the best time was 19 days and give the 19 days as a good example of its speed. Off course he may have not been lucky on his many crossings and the Fox 10.20 could be extremely lucky in its only attempt, not very probable since the Freya owner seems to be quite satisfied with the best time his boat has made.

I know that the Freya has a good upwind performance but an Atlantic crossing or a circumnavigation following the trade winds is just were the difference to a modern planning boat is bigger. Crossing the Atlantic with the trade winds you can have constant 25 to 30K downwind wind for days, even weeks. This means between 10 and 15K to a modern planning hull and between 8 and 9K for a 39 heavy displacement boat.

Make no mistake, I like classic boats, I even prefer them older than the Freya but their performance is what it is. If the boat was a cruiser racer it can still be remarkably fast if compared with some cruisers, but obviously you cannot compare it with the performance of modern cruiser racers: A huge difference downwind some difference in upwind sailing. Besides modern boats have a much bigger LWL for a given boat size (the Freya 39 is really a 44ft boat and pay as such in a marina) and therefore modern boats have a bigger hull speed for the same LOA but most of all modern boats are much more easier to drive to hull speed and even a bit over and that permits them a much better average speed even upwind.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> ...
> But, let's cut right through polars and theory, and take a look at the Sydney Hobart line honours 2010 compared to 1964.
> The Freya beat: First 40, Pogo 40 , X43, Salona 44 retired, and the list goes on..
> The same goes for 2009 and 2008. The Freya was between 4d01hr to 4d15hr in a 3 year stretch. Take a look at all the boats, not able to make that time today. The list is full of rockets. Granted, conditions play a roll, but they do while cruising as well.
> Rolex ...
> 
> Bernd




Even considering that makes no sense comparing results from diferent races those results seem odd to me. An they are odd. Bernd, you are looking to compensated (handicap) times. That does not mean nothing. You have to look at elapsed times (real times).

They only have real times for Freya in 1963 (4days 15 hours 17m) and 1964 (4.01.17).

This last Sydney Hobart was particularly difficult and slow. The First 40 make it in 4.02.08. Two true, the First that lead all the race in compensated (and that was way ahead of the second First) had to retire with a stupid problem: Engine not working and unable to charge batteries.

The 2009 edition was also a difficult and slow one. A First 40 won in compensated. He made 3.23.30.

The 2008 edition was a "normal" one. There First 40 didn't exist, the Pogo 40 made 3.02.34. The 2007 was also average and the same Pogo made 3.02.34.

This is not a "good" race for the Pogo 40. This is not a downwind race and the SD-H is known for a lot of upwind sailing in difficult conditions. Since it become racing the SD-H the First 40 had always done better than the Pogo40.

These results seem more "normal" to me

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Small race cats are they interesting?

YouTube - ‪Extreme Catamaran Sailing at Round Texel Race 2011‬‏

Howwww!!!!

I want to try one This is sailing fun!!!


----------



## PCP

More Information on the Maxi 11 one of the hottest boats coming soon:



















Look at that speed Polar

They say about the boat:

"Thirty-seven feet is enough to get standing headroom, nice saloon, a twin sink galley, spacious heads and shower compartment and quarters for 4 + 2 people.

So if you really enjoy high speed sailing in comfort and don't mind irritating fellow sailors by leaving them behind while you manoeuvre your Maxi 11 at ease with a crew of one or two the new Maxi 11 is really for you.

The Iconic Maxi 11 will be designed with a set up for short-handed, or even single handed manoeuvring. A well thought out on-deck concept will give you the advantage of sailing almost as fast with a two crew, as with a full crew.

The masthead hoisted assymetrical spinnaker and bow with extendable carbon fibre bowsprit will give you sensational beam reach and downwind sailing characteristics. In addition you will get easier use, faster hoisting and more frequent gennaker sailing.

This state of the art 37 feet sailing yacht will have the same functions and performance as a larger yacht, yet it will be easier to handle.

Nowadays, it's the speed, not the size that counts".





































*Dimensions

Loa: 11.40m Lwl: 10.80m Beam: 3.60m Draft: 2.20m alt 2.45m

Displ: 4.80t Ballast: 2.0t Sail Areas: Main: 50.0m2 Jib: 35.9m²

Assy. spin: 130.3m²*

"Designed by this team with proven track record in crafting performance design yachts, the new Maxi 11 is engineered to push the boundaries of modern design and utilise the latest building practices to create an aggressive high performance sailing yacht that is technically consistent, ensuring absolute equal performance across the whole class - an evolution hardly seen before in high performance sport yachts.

This state of the art 37 feet yacht will have a longer waterline inspired by the best solutions from racing yachts. With stiffer and stronger advanced composites hull, wider stern, pointier bow, and extended bowsprit with maximized sail areas to match, the Maxi 11 will deliver exceptional upwind performance in all conditions with exciting double digit speed downwind and reaching. The sharper bow and single rudder design enables more enjoyable upwind tacking."

She is surprisingly comfortable below deck. Thirty-seven feet means standing headroom, nice saloon, a twin sink galley, spacious heads and shower compartment and quarters for 4 + 2 people.

Designed with large portholes or even all glass skylight solutions an astonishing amount of daylight will find its way below deck, giving you a nice experience, look and feel.

The interior design will be a characteristic Scandinavian minimalism, yet with genuine material and high quality details all coming together to give the Saloon a comfy "living room" ambiance.

I just wanted that the price was not also a Scandinavian one, but I bet I will not have any luck


----------



## G1000

Maxi11 had blog page with time counter and last time I have checked it was "Prototype launch in 7 weeks", mid of August. Now they postponed launch till November... and changed design quite a lot.


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Maxi11 had blog page with time counter and last time I have checked it was "Prototype launch in 7 weeks", mid of August. Now they postponed launch till November... and changed design quite a lot.


Yes you are right, they have changed their project. I believe they have reformulated the boat to be more competitive in handicap racing. There are few images of the previous model but it seemed even more interesting to me:




























Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

new Maxi11 looks like J/111. initial design was much more eye catching.


----------



## PCP

New boat! From Sweden, and a fast one, the HR 10.30.

First take a look at the movie: The HR in a North European race.

YouTube - ‪Bohusracet 2011‬‏

YouTube - ‪HP1030 'Earl Grey' på jomfrutur, Kronborg og Nivå‬‏

The boat is narrow and very light:



















It has a good quality interior:










and is beautiful:














































And it is fast...but coming from Sweden is not going to be cheap...well not everything can be perfect


----------



## PCP

Beautifull boats

Billionaires Idea of a race boat. They are fast big (100ft) and need a huge crew.

This is the beginning of the TR race (Transat) that joined some of the biggest and fastest boats around, racers, cruiser racers and just big cruisers. They look nice, no doubt about that.

The fastest seem to be the Jk designed 100ft Rambler with the smaller Puma (Vor 70) putting a good fight now that Leopard has lost its bowsprit.

They have made 3 starts (slower boats first). This is the third start (fastest boats):

YouTube - ‪Third start 3rd July‬‏

This is the second start and guess who was there? The big one with the funny electronic controlled sails, the Maltese Falcon and it is not properly slow. Other two interesting boats on that start, The Ourson Rapide, the Finot designed luxurious yacht based on an open 60 and the Gunboat 66, pissing the big racing mono-hulls with big crews, going faster with a cruising boat and a smaller crew.

YouTube - ‪Second Start Transatlantic Race‬‏

YouTube - ‪Open Class Start‬‏

For the ones that want to follow the race (they have a tracker):

Transatlantic Race 2011 / Atlantic Ocean Series

There are also some 40 class boats that are putting a good fight against 50ft race boats with a full crew.


----------



## PCP

HP (High Performance), the Sweden shipyard that makes the 10.30 has two more boats on the line to came out in the market, a 12.30m and a 8.5m boat.

The 41ft is interesting with a 3.7m beam, 2.5m draft and 1900kg of ballast to 5500kg of height. 106m2 of sail will make it a top performance boat.










But the one I find a knock out is the smaller boat, the 8.50:

3.05m of beam, with a very reduced beam at waterline (2.06) a draft that is compatible with cruising (1.80m) a 1650kg of weight and almost half of it as ballast (800kg) and on top of this the boat is just beautiful


----------



## PCP

*I hate the handicap concept*

Some very interesting information about the Elan 350 and its optimization for IRC racing. The information is provided by the boat designer.

Most sailors would think that when you optimize a boat for racing that we are talking about making a boat as fast as we can. But that is not really about that, it is just a way of making a boat do best under an arbitrary set of rules and *that means many times a considerable SLOWER boat*.

*Let's see what happens with the Elan 350 optimization for IRC racing:*

Compared wins in time with different boat configurations.

Wins in time over the Standard boat:

Standard sail plan with carbon rig & rod rigging - 14 seconds/hour

S.G. iron & lead 2.35m draft keel - 38 seconds/hour

Elan Race Team RP version with taller rig & deep draft composite keel - 4m 12s/hour
Spinnaker pole - 17s/hour

These modifications affect the IRC rating like this:

1. 2.15m iron keel / alloy rig & wire rigging TCC = 1.029
2. 2.15m iron keel / carbon rig and rod rigging TCC = 1.033
3. 2.35m iron & lead keel / alloy rig & wire rigging TCC = 1.040
4. 2.35m iron & lead keel / carbon rig & rod rigging TCC = 1.044
5. 2.35m iron & lead keel / Elan Race Team RP carbon rig & rod rigging TCC = 1.101
6. 2.15m iron keel / carbon rig / pole, 100sqm SPA & 4.31m STL TCC = 1.035
7. 2.15m iron keel / carbon rig / pole, 110sqm SPA & 4.31m STL TCC = 1.038

.....
Conclusions:

About the fastest configuration with 2.35m iron & lead keel / Elan Racing Team RP carbon rig : *Best configuration in under 6kts* TWS as this option has highest sail area to wetted surface area.
*Above 6kts TWS the boat is very uncompetitive under IRC due to its high rating*. She must be capable of sailing 4 mins 12 secs per hour faster than the standard boat to perform better under IRC and the VPP is simply saying that she will not be able to do this above 6kts TWS.

........

*The best configuration for winning in IRC:*

For optimum performance under IRC, our recommendation would be to go with *2.15m draft S.G. iron keel* and standard sized carbon rig with rod standing rigging. This will give *best compromise between performance and rating*. It is then down to what sort of racing the boat will do as to what best option is between spinnaker pole and bow sprit. If more reaching type courses are envisaged then the best option would be to remain with the centreline bowsprit *and not carry a spinnaker pole*. If a large amount of windward leeward type racing is envisaged then the best option would be to use a spinnaker pole with a combination of asymmetric and symmetric spinnakers.

Well, *if you really want to win, make your boat slower*. Just through out the lead keel and make it a lot heavier (lead and smaller draft will be compensated with a lot more ballast). This is the conclusion we can take from all this and the reason that I really hate handicap races: they don't make sense and contribute to the design of slower and less effective sailboats.


----------



## PCP

There are some that follow and participate on this thread that have a special interest in the Transaquadra. Just to say that the race is on...kind off

You can follow here (router):

Le départ de la Trasquadra est reporté | Transquadra 2011-2012

And for the ones that don't know about what I am talking about and why this race is special to some of us you can read here:

Transquadra: Good start to Barcelona | en.NauticWebNEWs.com

THE TRANSQUADRA'S LESSONS - Agathe Armand (English Version)

Some videos here:

Transquadra 2011 2012 - A Video PlayList on Dailymotion

Dailymotion - depart barcelone part 1 - une vidÃ©o Sports & Extreme

Regarding interesting boats this race shows what are the types of boats best suited to be solo sailed (or duo sailed) by a non professional sailor (with more than 40 year's old), fast across the Atlantic. That is an interesting information and this is an interesting race


----------



## PCP

*TRANSQUADRA and boat's performance*

The Transquadra is very handy to take relevant information about boat performance, specially in what regards solo or duo sailing. This information is interesting because these guys are not super sailors that can sail fast a very powerful boat, but mostly average sailors like you and me.

There are some big boats there (40 to 49ft) and mostly small boats, from 30 to 35ft. The first conclusion is that small boats are faster with a small and not super experienced crew. This is not a conclusion from this edition but a conclusion we can confirm in past editions.

Let's take a look at how the boats are doing on this edition:

The ones that sailed from Barcelona (they departed sooner) had very weak and variable winds. The leader is a Jeanneau SF 3200, followed by another SF 3200, a JPK 110 and the leader on solo sails a A35. The bigger boats are way back (2 Dufour 40, a Hanse 411, a Comfortina 42) and the last is a Jeanneau SO 49.

The ones that departed Yesterday from Saint Nazaire had good winds and are sailing downwind with 14K winds. The leader is a A35 (doing 8.7K). There are several A35 on the leading pack, a A31, several JPK 110 and a JPK 9.6. The Sun Fast 3200 are close, just a little behind but ahead of bigger boats like two First 40.7, a GS 37, two 40 Sun Fast and a GS 40.

The fastest solo boat seems to be a First 35 followed by a Jod 35. Close there are a A31, a JPK 110 and a SF 3200.

It seems that the guys on the bigger boats, like the First 40.7 or GS 40 are not able to exploit the boat to its full potential while the guys on smaller boats manage to go faster, probably because the boat and the smaller sails are easier to handle.


----------



## PCP

For the ones that don't know what type of boats we are talking about, I mean those performance 30/35ft offshore capable boats that are the majority on this race, some movies:

YouTube - ‪Dehler 32, Elan 310, First 30 an Sun Fast 3200 under test.mov‬‏

YouTube - ‪JPK 1010 HD.mov‬‏

YouTube - ‪Elan 310‬‏

YouTube - ‪First 35 in navigazione‬‏

YouTube - ‪Fulcrum Sailing Team, Archambault A35, Muggia / ITA‬‏

YouTube - ‪Barcelona a Rosas en A31‬‏

YouTube - ‪JPK 9.60 sous spi‬‏

YouTube - ‪239 sur la transquadra. pour Coté voile‬‏

YouTube - ‪TRANSQUADRA 2008-2009 Part2‬‏


----------



## PCP

New boat and this one is really an interesting one. There is one in the front pack of the Transquadra (France departure) and with the particularity of being sailed by the owner, a 50 year's old Bank clerk and the boat designer himself, François Lucas (49 year's old).

Transquadra 2011

architecte naval nantes loire atlantique plan voilier competition croisiere bateau moteur servitude 44

The boat is light, made of plywood and has a retractable keel with the ballast on a bulb. I find it also a very nice boat and I have heard that it is not expensive.


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Not sure I personally like the last boat. I feel the SF3200 or Elan 310/350 or Evosion boats among others are preferred over that one. I am sure it is a good boat tho! 

The new Jeanneau's I was a bit wrong, but right at the same time. The DS model from the 439 is a 43 not a 42. The 509 is correct, along with a 469 that is showing up. I would swag a DS version of the 379 and 409 will be along soon too!

Marty


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> The Transquadra is very handy to take relevant information about boat performance, specially in what regards solo or duo sailing. This information is interesting because these guys are not super sailors that can sail fast a very powerful boat, but mostly average sailors like you and me.
> 
> There are some big boats there (40 to 49ft) and mostly small boats, from 30 to 35ft. The first conclusion is that small boats are faster with a small and not super experienced crew. This is not a conclusion from this edition but a conclusion we can confirm in past editions.
> 
> Let's take a look at how the boats are doing on this edition:
> 
> The ones that sailed from Barcelona (they departed sooner) had very weak and variable winds. The leader is a Jeanneau SF 3200, followed by another SF 3200, a JPK 110 and the leader on solo sails a A35. The bigger boats are way back (2 Dufour 40, a Hanse 411, a Comfortina 42) and the last is a Jeanneau SO 49.
> 
> The ones that departed Yesterday from Saint Nazaire had good winds and are sailing downwind with 14K winds. The leader is a A35 (doing 8.7K). There are several A35 on the leading pack, a A31, several JPK 110 and a JPK 9.6. The Sun Fast 3200 are close, just a little behind but ahead of bigger boats like two First 40.7, a GS 37, two 40 Sun Fast and a GS 40.
> 
> The fastest solo boat seems to be a First 35 followed by a Jod 35. Close there are a A31, a JPK 110 and a SF 3200.
> 
> It seems that the guys on the bigger boats, like the First 40.7 or GS 40 are not able to exploit the boat to its full potential while the guys on smaller boats manage to go faster, probably because the boat and the smaller sails are easier to handle.


Goes to show what a good sailor can do on a good boat. There are semi professional level crews and then full out amateurs in the race so you cannot expect comparable results. Will be interesting to see what happens with the 2nd leg and the guys from the Atlantic and Med go head to head. I'm sure there will be some good ribbing between the groups as most on the Atlantic side think the Med is for bar hopping sailors.


----------



## PCP

Huumm!! I would not call them semi-professionals, there are a lot of restrictions regarding inscriptions. Look at the guys that are leading on the French side and look at their professions and you would not find anything related with sailing and some are not 40 year's old, but more than 50 year's old

But of course they are not all equal in their sailing performance but I think that the choice of boats is significant as their average performance. I mean there will always be exceptions (very good sailors and bad sailors) but the average result is pretty informative and what we see is all the bigger boats back and the same type of boats leading and that is certainly relevant.

The choice of boats can also have to do with handicap but I guess that most of the sailors are there to have fun and to sail fast not properly to sail slowly and win the race on handicap and therefore I find odd that there are not any Elan 350 or any Pogo 10.50. There are a lot of Pogo but they are all 8.50 and its not a question of money or the boats being new on the market: There are a lot of JPK 10.10 racing (and doing very well) and the boat is as new as the Elan 350 and newer than the Pogo 10.50 and the difference in price are not meaningful. I guess that regarding the Elan the fact that it is not a French boat has some importance.

The only exception to a bigger boat doing well is an Opium 39 that is disputing the first place in the Solo division (departure from Barcelona) with a A35. On the opposite direction we have a really small boat doing well, two A31 on the fight for the best solo boat (departure France).

Yes, when all boats are together (second leg) it will be more fun and interesting to see how the Spanish will cope with the French.

Transquadra 2011

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

The magazine "Yacht" tested the Halberg-Rassy 64 and have made a nice movie (cut the talk and see the images).

Hallberg-Rassy 64: Segeln, reisen und träumen - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE

The HR 64 is one of the boats nominated to the European boat of the year contest (category: Luxury cruisers) and the one I like more in that category.





































Contrary to the other boats on the category is still much a sailing boat and not a floating condo. High quality but still looking like a sailboat and a good and fast one judging by the images.


----------



## PCP

Not less interesting, on another register...the first image of the new J 70. Looking good


----------



## JAndersB

Hi everybody,
I participated earlier in the discussion and how now been busy for a month taking delivery of the Opium 39 and starting sailing her back home. I thought I would give you some feed back on my experiences after having sailed some 500 nm with the boat.

Of course I hoped for continous surfs at 13 knots but as I somewhat expected that is, as on most boats, demanding a gennaker in high winds, higher than what a normal crew usually is comfortable with. And when Yacht recorded 9 knots in 8 knots of wind at TWA 90 degrees I guess they where high on something. So am I dissapointed? Not at all, I am totally stoked. 

When comparing with all other cruisers on the water in the baltic right now, we leave harbours last and are by big margings first of the bunch in to the next one. Ok, these are not competitions and the boats are sailed with rather unskilled crews but still. What is impressing me most is the easyness of the sailing. You can be totally owerpowered or pressing the boat hard and you have finger tip control of the rudders, no weather helm at all and you are in full control and feeling totally safe. So what I hoped for and saw as the biggest selling point, twin rudders, has delivered in full.

Furthermore all loads are so low due to low boat weight and oversized Harken deck gear so instead of fighting high ballast ratios and frictions we set mainsail and reef, we sheet and winch once again with a smile and one hand on the winch.

I am also stoked by the storage room provided by the concept. The wide cockpit lockers in the floor between the aft cabins are huge, as are the rest of the storage spaces in the boat. We are right now cruising with a lot of gear and the boat seems to take it well. And big windows at low levels and cockpit floor level low compared with inside floor level gives nice views from inside.

So I am very happy with the concept despite those videos with stable, fully planing (pogos) at 15 knots speed will be somewhat difficult to obtain in normal cruising mode. I am surprised that the big ones are so slow in incrporating twin rudders on their aft beamy cruisers at least. You can obtain high form stability, less weight in the keel, get a very big cockpit and aft cabins and still sail agressively in full control. But, OK, you will need a bow propeller while mooring but at the same time almost all cruisers are sold with one today.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

Hi Anders,

I am happy for you. It is good to know that you have found the same qualities on the Opium 39 that I have found when I have test sailed the boat. You never know, sometimes people experience different things over a same subject and I was a bit afraid that after having recommended this boat you would be disappointed. 

Please keep us posted about the boat performances.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

New boat, or should I say new boats?

Two from the Dufour, the 445 that was nominated for this year's boat of the year and the smaller 335, the first ones since Bavaria owns Dufour.

The 445 has nothing new, except that comes in the continuity of the 425 and the 425 was a great boat. This one seams even better with lot's of interesting details. I like more the interior of the jeanneau 436 but I have to admit that this one has an huge galley and some very interesting solutions.

I love the integrated gennaker pole and the wine cellar

Dufour 335 GL: Klares Bekenntnis zum Tourer - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE

The revolution comes in the 335 that is very well designed, at least on the outside. Chapeau Mr Felci, I don't know how you managed to make such an elegant cruising 33ft.




























The boat looks bigger than a 33ft, that's for sure and they advertise a larger cruising autonomy, compared with similar boats. This boat can take 360L of water and 160L of fuel. Outstanding for this type of boat.

The boat has also a innovative control of the boom and has no back stay (I don't know if I like that )

Some dimensions:

LOA : 10,28m (9,98m - removable bow roller)
Hull lenght : 9,98 m 
LWL : 9,00 m 
Beam : 3,49 m 
Displacement : 5450 kg 
Draft : 1,9 m 
Ballast : 1550 kg 
Main sail area: 29 m² 
Genoa 128% : 25 m² 
engine : 20 cv 
Designer : Umberto Felci


----------



## PCP

Promotion film of my favorite race, 2012 edition:

‪Vendee Globe Race 2012‬‏ - YouTube


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> Goes to show what a good sailor can do on a good boat. ... Will be interesting to see what happens with the 2nd leg and the guys from the Atlantic and Med go head to head. I'm sure there will be some good ribbing between the groups as most on the Atlantic side think the Med is for bar hopping sailors.


Yes, regarding the two groups, on the Spanish one the fastest boats are Jeanneaus 3200 (two) followed by a JPK 110. On the French group the A 35 have been consistently faster, followed by A31 and two different JPK models, two 110 a 9.6. The first Jeanneau 3200 is only 10th.

Also incredible that on the Barcelona group the first jeanneau 3200 has arrived already to Madeira while the Jeanneau 49 has barely got out of the Gibraltar strait Yes, you are right about "what a good sailor can do on a good boat" regarding to the duo that has already arrived but can the duo on the Jeanneau SO 49 be that bad, or it is really the boat that is not a match for the little ones, at least in what regards solo sailing?

Funny thing is that according to the IRC handicap the SO 49 should be a lot faster than the Sun Fast 3200 (1.056 to 1.002).

Also interesting that an older boat (French departure), an Archambault Sprint 108, is keeping with the front pack (7th) and also to note what seems to be a not very good Pogo 8.5 performance: While several A31 are close to the head of the race, the First Pogo is only 39th. There is one slightly ahead, running in solo category on 13th place (but near the other Pogo on scratch), but over performed by a guy on a Bavaria 38 (solo - 13th) and by another duo on an Beneteau Oceanis 37 (32th).

Humm, it seems that a Bavaria in good hands can go fast.

Transquadra 2011

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Something really nice, a new one off by Georg Nissen, the Designer of the modern Contest and the Sirius:























































Well, If I wanted to be picky I would say that the galley seems too small for a blue water boat (this is a passage-maker for two ) but otherwise the boat is rely something and on a recent boat test they also say that it sails well and has a remarkable stability. I wonder how much would cost a baby like this


----------



## PCP

Also new panoramic views on a favorite of mine, the Salona 41. Lot's of views and with excellent quality. Take a look, they are really nice:

360 - Salona Yachts


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> Yes, regarding the two groups, on the Spanish one the fastest boats are Jeanneaus 3200 (two) followed by a JPK 110. On the French group the A 35 have been consistently faster, followed by A31 and two different JPK models, two 110 a 9.6. The first Jeanneau 3200 is only 10th.
> 
> Also incredible that on the Barcelona group the first jeanneau 3200 has arrived already to Madeira while the Jeanneau 49 has barely got out of the Gibraltar strait Yes, you are right about "what a good sailor can do on a good boat" regarding to the duo that has already arrived but can the duo on the Jeanneau SO 49 be that bad, or it is really the boat that is not a match for the little ones, at least in what regards solo sailing?
> 
> Funny thing is that according to the IRC handicap the SO 49 should be a lot faster than the Sun Fast 3200 (1.056 to 1.002).
> 
> Also interesting that an older boat (French departure), an Archambault Sprint 108, is keeping with the front pack (7th) and also to note what seems to be a not very good Pogo 8.5 performance: While several A31 are close to the head of the race, the First Pogo is only 39th. There is one slightly ahead, running in solo category on 13th place (but near the other Pogo on scratch), but over performed by a guy on a Bavaria 38 (solo - 13th) and by another duo on an Beneteau Oceanis 37 (32th).
> 
> Humm, it seems that a Bavaria in good hands can go fast.
> 
> Transquadra 2011
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The latest Voiles et Voiliers has the bios of the teams - The first place Team Winds on the A35 are ex crew with Tabarly and have already raced the TQ. the Sprint 108 team has raced TQ 6 times. Etc, etc.. There is a pretty close correlation to experience and position on the first leg. When you look at the weather windows on the TQ site, you see those that didn't have the right approach from the beginning missed the Finisterre pass with wind and got nailed losing time. Same for the Barcelona start where the last boats missed the window to get past the Baléares because they didn't stick to the route on a VMG basis and got pretty.
Not saying the boats don't make a difference, but really, with both those 2 weather windows killing the "slower" boats I'd like to see the sails they were sailing and the night shift procedures they had (as both were dark hour drops in the wind where smarts & experience plays an even larger part in success.)


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> The latest Voiles et Voiliers has the bios of the teams - The first place Team Winds on the A35 are ex crew with Tabarly and have already raced the TQ. the Sprint 108 team has raced TQ 6 times. Etc, etc.. There is a pretty close correlation to experience and position on the first leg. When you look at the weather windows on the TQ site, you see those that didn't have the right approach from the beginning missed the Finisterre pass with wind and got nailed losing time. Same for the Barcelona start where the last boats missed the window to get past the Baléares because they didn't stick to the route on a VMG basis and got pretty.
> Not saying the boats don't make a difference, but really, with both those 2 weather windows killing the "slower" boats I'd like to see the sails they were sailing and the night shift procedures they had (as both were dark hour drops in the wind where smarts & experience plays an even larger part in success.)


Yes I agree, but let's not forget that those two (team winds) have 60 an 54 year's old and have nothing of "semi-professionals". More like once a good sailor, always a good sailor Nice job by those two veterans

Yes of course, a fast boat with mediocre sailors will not be fast but a slower boat will never stand a chance over a faster boat sailed by an equivalent sailor, even a less competent one that knows the ropes and on that race there are a lot of veterans that know how to sail fast. Many were once racers in different classes.

I believe that one of the things that count here is the capacity of driving the boat at full potential and for two guys well over the 50's it makes a big difference handling a smaller spinnaker on a A35 or a bigger one on a J 122 or in a First 40.7. Not an easy task for two old guys and even less during the night when only one is on the cockpit.

Probably that is what makes smaller boat more competitive than bigger boats and what permits a A31, a SF 3200 or a JPK 9.60 to have almost the same performance as a A35. On a race with full crew the smaller boats would not stand a chance against the A35. That is probably also the reason why you don't see a singe A40rc racing: too demanding for two veterans.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> Yes I agree, but let's not forget that those two (team winds) have 60 an 54 year's old and have nothing of "semi-professionals". More like once a good sailor, always a good sailor Nice job by those two veterans
> 
> Yes of course, a fast boat with mediocre sailors will not be fast but a slower boat will never stand a chance over a faster boat sailed by an equivalent sailor, even a less competent one that knows the ropes and on that race there are a lot of veterans that know how to sail fast. Many were once racers in different classes.
> 
> I believe that one of the things that count here is the capacity of driving the boat at full potential and for two guys well over the 50's it makes a big difference handling a smaller spinnaker on a A35 or a bigger one on a J 122 or in a First 40.7. Not an easy task for two old guys and even less during the night when only one is on the cockpit.
> 
> Probably that is what makes smaller boat more competitive than bigger boats and what permits a A31, a SF 3200 or a JPK 9.60 to have almost the same performance as a A35. On a race with full crew the smaller boats would not stand a chance against the A35. That is probably also the reason why you don't see a singe A40rc racing: too demanding for two veterans.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I agree on the manageability aspect for sure. I'd always go with the smallest that is safe, seaworthy, and fast. That being said you have a really broad mix of sailors on the TQ and that plays a major factor. You see the big difference on the "trajectories" vs. weather planning and vmg at night - those are the keys and the cool thing is you can see on the TQ2011 site those that optimize and those that "get by". Gonna be an interesting 2nd leg but the Barcelona "group" is pretty much a 6 boat race now.


----------



## bb74

JAndersB said:


> Hi everybody,
> I participated earlier in the discussion and how now been busy for a month taking delivery of the Opium 39 and starting sailing her back home. I thought I would give you some feed back on my experiences after having sailed some 500 nm with the boat.
> 
> Of course I hoped for continous surfs at 13 knots but as I somewhat expected that is, as on most boats, demanding a gennaker in high winds, higher than what a normal crew usually is comfortable with. And when Yacht recorded 9 knots in 8 knots of wind at TWA 90 degrees I guess they where high on something. So am I dissapointed? Not at all, I am totally stoked.
> 
> When comparing with all other cruisers on the water in the baltic right now, we leave harbours last and are by big margings first of the bunch in to the next one. Ok, these are not competitions and the boats are sailed with rather unskilled crews but still. What is impressing me most is the easyness of the sailing. You can be totally owerpowered or pressing the boat hard and you have finger tip control of the rudders, no weather helm at all and you are in full control and feeling totally safe. So what I hoped for and saw as the biggest selling point, twin rudders, has delivered in full.
> 
> Furthermore all loads are so low due to low boat weight and oversized Harken deck gear so instead of fighting high ballast ratios and frictions we set mainsail and reef, we sheet and winch once again with a smile and one hand on the winch.
> 
> I am also stoked by the storage room provided by the concept. The wide cockpit lockers in the floor between the aft cabins are huge, as are the rest of the storage spaces in the boat. We are right now cruising with a lot of gear and the boat seems to take it well. And big windows at low levels and cockpit floor level low compared with inside floor level gives nice views from inside.
> 
> So I am very happy with the concept despite those videos with stable, fully planing (pogos) at 15 knots speed will be somewhat difficult to obtain in normal cruising mode. I am surprised that the big ones are so slow in incrporating twin rudders on their aft beamy cruisers at least. You can obtain high form stability, less weight in the keel, get a very big cockpit and aft cabins and still sail agressively in full control. But, OK, you will need a bow propeller while mooring but at the same time almost all cruisers are sold with one today.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Anders, Congrats on the boat - it is a beautiful specimen! Looking forward to more war stories of the good and bad of it!


----------



## SecondWindNC

PCP said:


> Something really nice, a new one off by Georg Nissen, the Designer of the modern Contest and the Sirius:


Does it come with the salty sailor in the cockpit?


----------



## Chimbatete

PCP said:


> Also new panoramic views on a favorite of mine, the Salona 41. Lot's of views and with excellent quality. Take a look, they are really nice:
> 
> 360 - Salona Yachts


That interior is eerily identical to that of the opium.

BTW Paulo, are you the same guy in youtube PPconsultant? That guys awesome with his lessons.


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Something really nice, a new one off by Georg Nissen, the Designer of the modern Contest and the Sirius:
> 
> Well, If I wanted to be picky I would say that the galley seems too small for a blue water boat (this is a passage-maker for two ) but otherwise the boat is rely something and on a recent boat test they also say that it sails well and has a remarkable stability. I wonder how much would cost a baby like this


Now thats a bit sexy Paulo. Looks a bit similar to the van Meer designed Puffin though very different in the hind quarters. I cannot find a link to the builder, do you know what she looks like underwater ?

Being picky I'd have to agree with you re the galley.


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> That interior is eerily identical to that of the opium.
> 
> BTW Paulo, are you the same guy in youtube PPconsultant? That guys awesome with his lessons.


No I am not that guy.

Regarding the interiors there is some confusion they are both nice but very different.

Take a look:

Bateau Opium 39 by Wauquiez : Wauquiez

360 - Salona Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

My Bad Paulo,

Another question. You had mentioned that Luffe doesnt market and they dont do boatshows. So does this mean that when they price their boat (Fully loaded 40.04) at $400k you are getting a good deal since this boat ordinarily would have cost 20-30% more? 

On the other hand a J122 worth $450k is boat for boat not as good a value as a Luffe 40.04 since JBoats are one of the most marketed boats in history?


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Now thats a bit sexy Paulo. Looks a bit similar to the van Meer designed Puffin though very different in the hind quarters. I cannot find a link to the builder, do you know what she looks like underwater ?
> 
> Being picky I'd have to agree with you re the galley.


It is a modern hull and the boat is not particularly heavy: 9.8T for 12.75m, a fin keel with a bulb and a 2.10 draft. On the "Yacht" magazine test they were impressed with the speed and stability. It is not really old, just looks classic

The builder was this:

Nissen 42 | Yachtbau Janssen & Renkhoff

But this boat is a one off, not a production boat.

Have a look at the Architect site, Georg Nissen like me he likes all kinds of boats and he has some very interesting designs, from classical boats to fast cruiser racers. Pity that this one is not yet there.

Yachtdesign Georg Nissen

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> My Bad Paulo,
> 
> Another question. You had mentioned that Luffe doesnt market and they dont do boatshows. So does this mean that when they price their boat (Fully loaded 40.04) at $400k you are getting a good deal since this boat ordinarily would have cost 20-30% more?
> 
> On the other hand a J122 worth $450k is boat for boat not as good a value as a Luffe 40.04 since JBoats are one of the most marketed boats in history?


Well, I am partial about Luffe. Before the crisis I thought I could have money for one and visited the shipyard, talked with Oluf Jørgensen the designer and owner of shipyard and test sailed with him what was then a brand new 4004 (his personal boat). I was very impressed with the boat, with the quality of built and I still think that the Luffe offers one of the best compromises between top quality and price.

The boat is not only fast and with a top quality interior but also very strong, using a steel structure to distribute all the efforts from the keel and rigging.

A J122 is a great and fast boat, a Luffe is a work of art

This was the boat I test sailed, the "Josefine":




























Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

Thats a beautiful boat Paolo, how would you compare that to the new Faurby 396 Jesper Bank edition? This boat seems to be the most anticipated thing in the racing circuit.


----------



## tdw

Luffe ... drop dead gorgeous things . If I ever get to Europe again I am going to pay them a visit. 

Must say I do like the look of the J and Paulo keeps on picking gooduns with that Hallberg Rassey. I note that the previous owners of our new girl have just bought themselves an HR 46. They do have good taste, I'll give them that. This is his second HR. 

In the past I've not be so keen on the HR due to the high freeboard of the flush decks but the newer series with coach roof design really does it for me. Quite frankly I doubt I'll ever go larger than our current 41feet but that HR 46 ? mmmmmm ... nice.


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> Anders,
> 
> WE WANT PICTURES


I will put up pictures and videos as soon as I have time and better internet connection. So busy having fun sailing right now, and rooming rates too high to go through 3G-networks with that kind of stuff. And marina wi-fi sucks as usual.

Some more sailing facts.

We did some dead downwind 30 NM runs with pooled out genua in 18-25 knots of wind and short baltic waves of appr 1 m. Typical speeds 9-11,5 knots.

At 70 TWA and wind speed 16-24 knots, two reefs in main we had continious speeds of 9-10,5 knots and finger tip control at very high heeling angles. Wife even fell at sleep on the wide side decks in a comfort seat (check these seats out, they are gorgeus).

And a 20 NM run at 120 TWA with wind 20-30 knots, very small waves (off shore conditions). First full main and genoa and then 1 reef in, speed once again with finger tip steering between 9-12 knots.

In light wind 60 degrees TWA, wind strenght 11-15 knots, we made 7,5-8 knots steadily for 30 NM.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Thats a beautiful boat Paolo, how would you compare that to the new Faurby 396 Jesper Bank edition? This boat seems to be the most anticipated thing in the racing circuit.
> 
> ..


The Jesper Bank edition is just an old 396 with an open transom. the Faurby 396 is a beautiful boat with an interior even better than the one from Luffe.

It is a fast boat for a cruiser but cannot compare with the Luffe 4004. He is slower in real time than a same length First, an Elan or a Salona...and slower than a Luffe. In Denmark the guys that like Luffe use to call then killer X. The X are the X yachts, another Danish boat and one of the fastest boats around.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> I will put up pictures and videos as soon as I have time and better internet connection. So busy having fun sailing right now, and rooming rates too high to go through 3G-networks with that kind of stuff. And marina wi-fi sucks as usual.
> 
> Some more sailing facts.
> 
> We did some dead downwind 30 NM runs with pooled out genua in 18-25 knots of wind and short baltic waves of appr 1 m. Typical speeds 9-11,5 knots.
> 
> At 70 TWA and wind speed 16-24 knots, two reefs in main we had continious speeds of 9-10,5 knots and finger tip control at very high heeling angles. Wife even fell at sleep on the wide side decks in a comfort seat (check these seats out, they are gorgeus).
> 
> And a 20 NM run at 120 TWA with wind 20-30 knots, very small waves (off shore conditions). First full main and genoa and then 1 reef in, speed once again with finger tip steering between 9-12 knots.
> 
> In light wind 60 degrees TWA, wind strenght 11-15 knots, we made 7,5-8 knots steadily for 30 NM.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Lucky guy, having fun while I am still at home....but not for long

These seems great numbers even if when I tested the boat I recall having made 7.7/8K with 60º of apparent wind with only 8/10k of true wind.

Regarding downwind sailing I am pretty sure the boat can go faster with more wind....the question that with time I hope you are going to answer is how much wind does it need to go at 13/15K (maybe 25/35K).

While waiting for your movies I will post one that will give you satisfaction, the movie of an Opium 39 that just finish to win the first leg of the Transquadra (solo) crewed by a 54 year's old sailor.

Dailymotion - Eric crie et chante sur son bateau ! - une vidÃ©o Sports & Extreme

All the way he put up a big fight with an younger guy on a A 35:

Dailymotion - T'as le look Coco !! - une vidÃ©o Sports & Extreme

The guy from the Opium was too modest, he only have said that he had put the "charbon", meaning full speed, but the guy from the A35 said he had come as fast as he could and that he had surfed at 20.5K.

Of course these boats are as light as they can be and your's is heavy with all the cruising equipment and that makes a difference in what regards planing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Regarding the Transquadra, the one that departed from France are coming down on the trade winds, fast, doing over 9K on 30/35ft boats. Not bad for veterans on solo or duos

Amazingly the smaller boats can keep the rhythm with the leading A35. The tree boats that are chasing are all smaller: A A31, a JPK9.6 and a JPK10.10.

We can take a conclusion here, old guys are not slower guys. The crew from the A35 is by far the older, with 60 year's old and 54, the one from the A31 has 41/43, the one from the JPK 9.6 50/48 and the one from the JPK 10.10 50/43.

Or take the opposite conclusion: Experience matters

Seriously, I am truly amazed that those two guys in the A35 can maintain that rhythm and sustain a long chase without weakening. At 60 year's age against 15 year's younger guys...CHAPEAU.

Transquadra 2011

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Nice images from the first Transquadra duo that arrived at Madeira (departed from Barcelona). 25K wind, blowing 30K and they come with all the sail out (and some broaches). A couple on a jeanneau Sunfast 3200; they have make a great race:

Dailymotion - Il était temps d'arriver ! - une vidéo Sports & Extreme


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Eric,
> the last posts may induce some in error regarding the seaworthiness and safety of class 40 and Pogo cruisers. Not what I meant.
> 
> As I have said before Pogo cruisers and Class 40 have a good AVS and a good safety stability, by modern standards.


Sorry for this late answer, I have been unable to post for a while but kept on following this thread closely.

Thank you for your thorough analysis, Paulo. No real worry of course, since you and Ulf already posted very reassuring data.
But now we are even more comforted about the safety issues of these designs, which is of course our main concern.

The discussions about performance of different types of boats in different racing conditions confirm that it always comes down to making personal choices.
Since we have no intention to race, I think we will probably take wind direction and prediction even more into consideration when planning where to go than on a heavier and slimmer yacht. 
As long as I know the boat will also beat upwind like most other cruisers when required, I'm quite happy with that.

Many congratulations with your Opium 39, Anders! 
I perfectly understand your choice and the figures are already quite impressive. And since you will always get to know your yacht better and better...

Kind regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Hey Eric,

Yes, of course you are right, even among fast boats there is no perfect cruiser, they all have compromises, different compromises and each sailor values them in a different way and therefore the best compromise for me probably is not the best compromise for you

........................................................................................................

Last post about the European's boat of the year contest, the last category, the Special ones, meaning the boats that don't fit in any of the previous categories mostly day sailors.

Day sailers is a category the boat that is increasing in Europe. Lot's of people don't have time to cruise and just want some beautiful and pleasurable sailing boat to go out sailing and having fun. There are really some stunning boats on the market among them some new boats that were nominated for the 2012 contest:

The Eangle 44 is certainly on of the most beautiful, in a classic way:










‪Eagle 42 by Yacht Vision‬‏ - YouTube

The Dinamica 940 is also beautiful but in a modern way:










‪Dinamica Yachts 940 Daysailer‬‏ - YouTube

The Esse 750 is the more recent brother of a legend called Esse 850, a lake boat and a very popular racer. Beautiful boat and probably as exhilarating to sail as his bigger brother:



















‪esse 750 - first impressions‬‏ - YouTube

The Tarac is a Swedish week end cruiser, nicely designed and with a great interior:



















Tarac 33 « ComfortbÃ¥tar Marin AB

And finally the Keus 22 that is a simple inexpensive and fun to sail boat:










‪keus 22‬‏ - YouTube

Hard to chose among these but I have a weakness for the Eagle 44. It is such an improbable boat, such a waist of money for a daysailer...and such a beautiful thing. It is as beautiful as this one, that is among my favorite classic boats:

‪Stephens Waring 50 ft Spirit of Tradition daysailer Ginger.mov‬‏ - YouTube


----------



## PCP

Since we are talking about daysailers and beautiful boats it would not be fair not to talk about the Stephens & Waring 38 Performance Cruiser. This is an one off conceived for this program:

"She has been conceived as a boat for day use on Lake Michigan with an eye towards single-handing the Chicago-Mackinaw race once a year. Style and charisma characterize her personality in this high performance day-sailer, these traits exemplified by the bright work joinery in the cabin structure and hull topsides. The owner and his wife proudly describe the project as "a piece of art" to the builders interested in bringing this dream to reality.

Many folks would be quite happy soaking up the rays with a G & T in hand while sailing this hot rod and employing only their fingertips to do the work. The boat is streamlined. It is tricked out with modest push-button functionality from stem to stern-concealed sheet leads and under-deck halyards all make their way to power assisted winches or hydraulically assisted functions. A slightly tuned down racing yacht, she has conservative draft and a punchy sail plan that should promise lively sailing off the shores of the windy city. Though she is a relatively small boat, the amenities below are plenty for an overnight stay in a favored harbor-the lightly appointed galley, a decent head and two generous quarter-births allow easy accommodation for two."

This is a wonderful boat that could be easily modified for coastal cruising and offshore work, just take a look at one of the most beautiful boats I ever saw:

‪Stephens Waring 38 Performance Cruiser 360 view.mov‬‏ - YouTube

America is not unfortunately the land of opportunities for sail boat designers. Sailing boats are on decline and the edge goes all to motor boats. New boats sell a lot less than in Europe. Maybe some day this will change ( Sailnet is a bastion of resistance against this trend) and only that explains that a boat such as beautiful as this is not a hit instead of a lonely one off.

Steve white & Paul Waring, the designers of this boat have already designed some of the most beautiful classic boats around, boats with a classic outlook but a modern and fast hull. It is sad that they are trying to survive instead of having the just success they deserved.

‪stephenswaringdesign's Channel‬‏ - YouTube

Breaking out of their custom-sail mold

*Just take a look at some of their boats:*













































































































And don't miss the movies:

‪Stephens Waring Yacht Design Montage.mov‬‏ - YouTube

‪Stephens Waring 50 Hoi An.mov‬‏ - YouTube

‪stephenswaringdesign's Channel‬‏ - YouTube

‪Stephens Waring 90 ft yawl Bequia.mov‬‏ - YouTube

Langley Multimedia: Bequia


----------



## PCP

I left Marjorie out and I let it out because I like this one so much that if I win the lottery, instead of living in the winter in my country house and in the summer in a boat, I just might command one for me and live all the time in a boat. She deserves a post just for her:
































































I like the classic interior, not too heavy, but agreeable and cozy. This one really looks like a SAILBOAT inside, a comfortable one for that matter and on the outside this 59ft has the looks of a boat that was beautiful 30 years ago, is beautiful now and will be beautiful when my grand children owns it. That's what this boat is all about, a family boat to be owned for generations on the same family. I like the idea, I am a family man.

Don't miss the movie:

Marjorie on Vimeo

And for having a more complete look at the work of this guys:

Stephens Waring Yacht Design - SW Yacht Design - Brooklin, Maine

The Boats of Brooklin Boat Yard


----------



## MikeWhy

Now I've seen everything. A wood burning fireplace aboard a yacht. I'm stunned and agape at the Bequia. (At the same time, I understand fully it can only be owned by and built for a banker. In the past, you needed to convince a large population that god appointed you to rule them to acquire such wealth. What a fooked up world.)


----------



## PCP

*Transquadra*

The guys from France have arrived last night. The older team hold the younger guys at large and brilliantly won the race with the A35. Then it come a JPK 9.60, a A31, a A35, a JPK 10.10 and only then the first Sun Fast 3200, at 3h 40m from the First.

Let's see on the second leg how these guys compare with the guys that come from Barcelona and if the SF 3200 that win that race can compete with the other boats that stay ahead of the Sun Fast.

The First solo was in a JPK 10.10 and the second on a A31.

Lot's of sailors chose JPK for doing the Transquadra and they got excellent results and that is amazing for such a small firm, as was the number of different types of boat models racing: The JPK 10.10, the 9.60 and the 110, all with good results

Next edition we will have one more JPK racing and probably one even more adapted to this race, the new 38, that should be a blast downwind.


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> It is sad that they are trying to survive instead of having the just success they deserved.


One word answer - $$$$$$$$$$$.

They are gorgeous though. Check out Tim Lackey's daysailor made from an old, dead glass hull for WAAAY less $$$ at Lackeysailing.com


----------



## PCP

Luxury daysailers are not the kind of boat that I am more attracted too even if I understand the concept: Sailing with style on a pleasurable boat on a sunny afternoon (I just like to do it longer) but for many Europeans this is the boat they want.

Just to give you an idea of the market extension let me post some movies dedicated to the ones that really want one. I am pretty sure there are 3 times more boat builders that the ones I am posting. Mind that these are not one off, but production boats and that some of those 30ft cost the same or more than much bigger mass production cruising boats.

It is not about the money, its about sailing and about pleasure Many of these boats are very fast boats:

‪Saffier sc 10.m daysailer‬‏ - YouTube

‪Saffier 23‬‏ - YouTube

‪Sly 42 fun, cruiser yacht‬‏ - YouTube

‪Brenta38‬‏ - YouTube

‪B52 La Spezia July 2009‬‏ - YouTube

‪Tofinou 12 (2)‬‏ - YouTube

‪Tofinou by Starck Salon Nautique de Paris 2010‬‏ - YouTube

‪Tofinou 8m.mov‬‏ - YouTube

‪Saffier 26 ft Daysailer‬‏ - YouTube

‪Daysailer Biehl 8.8 im Flensburger Hafen.AVI‬‏ - YouTube

‪HUZAR 28 Yacht photo‬‏ - YouTube

‪HUZAR 28 Yacht‬‏ - YouTube

‪Maxi Dolphin MD 33 Day Sailer‬‏ - YouTube

‪Maxi Dolphin MD65‬‏ - YouTube

‪Scandinavian Cruiser 20 - New Classic One-Design Day-Boat‬‏ - YouTube

‪Brand new Rustler 24 sailing in michigan part 2‬‏ - YouTube

‪yacht feeling - Wally Nano‬‏ - YouTube

‪Wally Nano turn around‬‏ - YouTube

‪Alphena Three d'Alphena Yachts‬‏ - YouTube

‪SENSEI 9M‬‏ - YouTube

‪ERYD 30‬‏ - YouTube

‪ERYD OPEN‬‏ - YouTube


----------



## mrybas

Has the Futuna line of boats been discussed on this thread? If so, I apologize.....I haven't made it through the entire thread (yet).


----------



## rockDAWG

Hope someone can translate or subtitle this.

Also look at 2:38 to 3:00 min

‪Jeanneau 409 -- Hamnen.se testar The Yacht of the year‬‏ - YouTube


----------



## PCP

mrybas said:


> Has the Futuna line of boats been discussed on this thread? If so, I apologize.....I haven't made it through the entire thread (yet).


No, we didn't have...and welcome to the thread

Not because they are not great boats (they are) but because most of the thread is about smaller boats...that even so are more expensive than what most of us can have the money to get

But maybe you are a rich guy that can have a luck of one day having one or just a dreamer like the rest of us...and the Futuna 57 is a nice dream, a 750 000€ dream.

I believe the 57 is a 2007 boat but Marc Lombard is designing bluewater boats along these lines for some years now. Marc Lombard is one of my preferred architects, with many designs, from cruising to racing and in what racing is concerned with special relevance in solo boats, Open 60's and 40 class racers.

The Futuna clearly reflects his experience with Open 60's even if the boat is more narrow. The boat is just perfect, specially on the version with lifting keel (draft 1.65 - 2.85). 1.65m of draft will permit it to cruise everywhere and the aluminum hull will give added protection against all the floating debris around. The light infused composite deck and cabin will help to maintain all weight down.

If I wanted to be picky I would say that if the quality of the interior seems to be very good the design seems a bit... well, it could be better even if the interior is agreeable.

Futuna 57:























































Well they have improved the interior on the new boat that they are finishing, the new 50. The boat is a bit less gorgeous on the outside looks but the interior is definitively better,specially in the way the box for raising the keel is integrated, not to mention that this one has a raised saloon that will improve the outside views.

Personally I would prefer this to the bigger one, if I had the 600000€ to give for a boat this one could well be the one I would chose:

"The Futuna 50 is the little one of the Futuna line of aluminum sailboats and should inherit of the great directional stability downwind and very high average speeds on all points of sailing. The raised saloon with panoramic views outside and a modern and esthetic lines make her a true little jewel.

As with the other yachts of the Futuna line, the Futuna 50 has fine entry lines, maximum dynamic waterline length and reduced waterline beam when heeled. The wide stern sections associated with the twin-rudder configuration lends fine helm control for high pleasure sailing. The modern 9/10 fractional rig can be fitted with a carbon-fiber mast and boom.

Well thought out interior layout, generous and safe cockpit both at sea and at anchor, ample storage space, aluminum hull for security, all this makes this cruiser ideal for extended voyages with speed and comfort.

The composite sandwich deck, as well as keeping the boat as light as possible provides more thermal insulation that would an all-aluminum structure."













































































































But hey, if you like big boats why not dream with the bigger one, the Futuna 70 that reached the market in 2009


















































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Sail-World.com : New for 2012: Jeanneau's Sun Odyssey 44DS

THere is an article on the New Jeanneau 44DS, that I called a 42 then a 43......the DS version of the 439!

Marty


----------



## mrybas

PCP said:


> But maybe you are a rich guy that can have a luck of one day having one or just a dreamer like the rest of us...and the Futuna 57 is a nice dream, a 750 000€ dream.


Unfortunately these boats are way out of my league.....but it doesn't hurt to dream.


----------



## blt2ski

BYM Product and Industry News

Another article, highlighting the 44ds and 509 coming out. A 469 is also rumoured to be coming out, but no info as of yet.

Marty


----------



## PCP

rockDAWG said:


> Hope someone can translate or subtitle this.
> 
> Also look at 2:38 to 3:00 min
> 
> ‪Jeanneau 409 -- Hamnen.se testar The Yacht of the year‬‏ - YouTube


Nice video. We can see that the boat is fast, easy to solo sailing and that it can take a lot of heeling without losing grip on the rudder and without broaching.

Regarding the test all I know is that the guy speaks Swedish and that's the end of my knowledge about the language. I believe there are some Swedes around this thread, maybe they can tell you if the guy says well or bad about the boat. If I understand something about body language I would say that he says mostly nice things

Rock, there is nothing like a test sail. Pick an airplane and go test one, even if you have to go far away.

This guy seems to have one for test sailing...on the wrong coast

‪New Jeanneau yacht 409 Sailboat start to delivery day sail B‬‏ - YouTube

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Well, I prefer that the rich spend their money on nice looking sailboats that to waste it on huge motor yachts that are many times ugly and contribute to polute the planet Unfortunately most have bad taste and have motorboats anyway
> 
> I think that fireplace is a gas one.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Nice boat Paulo .... very pretty indeed ... man if I owned one you could not convince to live on land.

The fireplace btw looks like a Dickinson Alaska though its a bit hard to tell. They do them either gas or diesel fired.

Dickinson do in fact also make a solid fuel stove. Hugely impractical on anything except a houseboat I guess but I like the idea.


----------



## rockDAWG

Paulo,

I saw 409 last Sat in Annapolis. We (me, wife and son) like it especially for the price. However, one thing drives me nut is they put wood paneling in the Head. They must try to imitate the American boat factory.  I like the French boat because they all have clean glossy white in their head so easy to clean that you can eat on the floor. Now they just wood all over. I couldn't believe my eyes. 

When I take shower, I have water flying all over the place. Now I have to worry about water damage. With our current Jeanneau, SO37, I can clean the head in 1.5 min. Spray Clorox Cleanup all over the head, spray and rinse, and close the door and let dry. 

I hope I can order one with the cheap wood paneling


----------



## PCP

mrybas said:


> ......but it doesn't hurt to dream.


Hey, it looks like you are apologizing for dreaming

On one of the more popular Portuguese poems, a poet says about the ones that don't dream (translated):

*They do not know, or dream,

that dreams command life,

that whenever a man dreams

the world jumps and moves

as a colored ball

in the hands of a child.*

That poem has also been put in a nice song, it sounds better in Portuguese

‪Fado, Carlos do Carmo- Pedra Filosofal‬‏ - YouTube


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> ...
> 
> THere is an article on the New Jeanneau 44DS, that I called a 42 then a 43......the DS version of the 439!
> 
> Marty


Yes, as usual in what regards Jeanneau you are the best source of information.

Yes, they have a new 44ds on the 439 hull. The boat is fast even if a bit fat for my taste, however the boat design manages to hide it pretty well and it seems that the improvements in performance that were introduced in the 409 and 439 are to be continued on the DS line.

The polar speed they show is outstanding for this type of boat. Speeds in between 8 and 9K seems easy to get:










On the outside the boat looks more elegant than the old 47 with a look that seems to differ from the rest of Jeanneau DS line and seems closer to the Wauquiez DS line:




























The cockpit layout and area seems to be very good:










The interior looks good on the drawings even if with that "apartment" look that I don't like particularly but that should suit many costumers:



















But the real thing looks a bit dim compared with the drawings. The interior of the old 45 looked better to me, but that was a very good interior by any standards:



















The main cabin seems great and it has a private head:



















A good boat for the ones that live aboard for a long time and that stay more at anchor or at the marina than sailing. A boat with a good sailing performance for a DS.


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


>


What a beauty! And so it will be forever, while most other designs look outdated within few years. The kind of yacht you can live on, gather your family around and pass on to your children and grandchildren.

If only it can be kept in good shape... I'm afraid the maintenance of all this splendid woodwork implies a whole lot of sanding and varnishing, time and effort that can not be spent on sailing.
But I if one can afford such a beauty, he or her will probably not have to worry about doing the dishes, let alone the paintwork.

So what a beautiful dream this is, and what would life be without dreams... For me this thread works much better than a nightcap.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> Nice video. We can see that the boat is fast, easy to solo sailing and that it can take a lot of heeling without losing grip on the rudder and without broaching.
> 
> Regarding the test all I know is that the guy speaks Swedish and that's the end of my knowledge about the language. I believe there are some Swedes around this thread, maybe they can tell you if the guy says well or bad about the boat. If I understand something about body language I would say that he says mostly nice things
> 
> Rock, there is nothing like a test sail. Pick an airplane and go test one, even if you have to go far away.
> 
> This guy seems to have one for test sailing...on the wrong coast
> 
> ‪New Jeanneau yacht 409 Sailboat start to delivery day sail B‬‏ - YouTube
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I saw the video 2 months ago so I have to take it from memory but basically he had only good things to say.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## Chimbatete

Ive been looking at the Jeanneau 409 and it looks great. Only issue is the main being too far and theyve marketed this as great for shorthanded sailing. How do you work the traveler on this boat? Hope this isnt a stupid question.


----------



## G1000

Capado said:


> Looking at your conclusions, I have to admit I am quite surprised. I guess I'll have to race the Fox 10.20, and see by myself how this goes. It could be interesting..... I guess I'll need new sails by the time I reach Sydney.


Adrien is just amazing, Capucine too. They have literally build Fox 10.20 on their own. Take a look at how Capado is born... http://capado.over-blog.com/albums.html


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Ive been looking at the Jeanneau 409 and it looks great. Only issue is the main being too far and theyve marketed this as great for shorthanded sailing. How do you work the traveler on this boat? Hope this isnt a stupid question.


There is no stupidity in wanting to be informed and in learning. That boat uses what is known as "German sheeting". Even if the traveler is over the cabin the control of the main is near the wheel. The lines are brought back.



















I don't remember if the traveler control is over the cabin but the boom main control is near the wheel and that is what is really important in an emergency.

The reason the traveler is over the cabin is because that is the only set up that permits a big bimini and that is big plus while cruising, even while sailing, if you cruise in a place with warm climate as most do.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Adrien is just amazing, Capucine too. They have literally build Fox 10.20 on their own. Take a look at how Capado is born... CAPADO creative boat


Not all of it. The Fox, as some similar French boats is offered in three versions:

All in kit or with the hull and superstructure made but not completely finished or as a finished boat. In their case they took the second option (as most of the guys that buy those boats) and just painted the hull finished the cabin and mounted the interior (that comes in kit).

Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - Fox 10.20 (Technologie Marine / Bertrand)

That gives a lot of work but permits huge savings on the boat. That way the boat complete with Vat (20%) and all costed them a bit more than 95 000€. They count to recover all that money selling the boat, that should worth at least that used, when they return.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Some movies of big fast and beautiful boats 44/50ft:

First tests and movies on the XP 44

‪XP44 Video‬‏ - YouTube

‪Xp 44, video‬‏ - YouTube

On the Grand Soleil 50

‪Grand Soleil 50 - SoloVela test - la prova in mare‬‏ - YouTube

‪Grand Soleil 50‬‏ - YouTube

On the Comet 50

‪Comet 50 - La prova in mare di SoloVela‬‏ - YouTube

‪Presentazione del Comet 50 Verve - Onboard Magazine‬‏ - YouTube

On the Salona 44

‪Salona 44 - La prova in mare di SoloVela‬‏ - YouTube

‪Salona 44 - Il video degli interni di SoloVela‬‏ - YouTube

On the Solaris 44

‪Solaris ONE 44‬‏ - YouTube

‪Salona 44 Yacht & Sail Channel Video‬‏ - YouTube


----------



## PCP

Two of those boats have been nominated for this year boat of the year contest: The Grand Soleil 50 and the Xp 44. I thought that would be an easy win for the Xp before looking at the video and hearing what they say about the Grand Soleil 50. Howw, the Grand Soleil 50 seems to be also a great boat. The boat looks amazing, in fact it looks bigger than a 50ft boat.

The Xp44 is hard to beat in what regards performance but the Grand Soleil 50 has a great performance in a delightful ambiance (look at the size of that galley). They say the boat is very stiff and that with a smother character will make it probably a better performance cruiser if the emphasis is put in fast cruising. On the Xp 44 the emphasis is put more in racing even if the boat has a great cruising interior.

Let me join more two recent great boats on this size, a cruiser racer, the Sly 48 and a very interesting boat that joins a good performance with the unbeatable cruising convenience of a swing keel and reduced draft, the Southerly 49. The boat also offers a Deck Saloon.....but look how the Grand Soleil looks bigger, sharper and more beautiful with its 2.90m draft. Well, you cannot have everything 

‪Sly 48 C test di Vanni Galgani su Barcheinvideo‬‏ - YouTube

‪Southerly 49‬‏ - YouTube

‪Southerly 49 - La prova in mare di SoloVela‬‏ - YouTube


----------



## EricKLYC

Chimbatete said:


> Ive been looking at the Jeanneau 409 and it looks great. Only issue is the main being too far and theyve marketed this as great for shorthanded sailing. How do you work the traveler on this boat? Hope this isnt a stupid question.


On the contrary, I think this is a very intelligent question!

I agree with Paulo that the possibility to fit a bimini is probably the most important reason why so many production boats have only a short traveler on the coach roof. Charterers want bimini's and charter companies are very important clients for mass production boatyards.

Otherwise it is really a pity, because modern sailplans reduce the foretriangle for easy handling, down to an little as 100% for self tacking jibs. So for a given sail area the mainsail becomes a lot bigger and efficient control is even more important.

Having the downhaul at hand to release it in case of emergency is a good thing. But to be able to master and trim a big mainsail, especially upwind, a performant traveler is essential. Unless you have a very powerful downhaul to control the leach and twist of the sail efficiently, which production boats almost never provide. In addition, the increasingly popular German sheeting system is not practical to respond quickly to puffs and lulls by means of the main sheet.

A traveler on the coachroof is completely out of hand, impossible to manage without using the winches and therefore almost never used. So I wonder why most builders even bother to fit it&#8230;

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## Chimbatete

Thanks for the pics Paulo. I think this setup is ideal for a cruisers and it is a great boat. But I'm looking at this in a racing perspective where you have to move the car up and down to optimize and like Erick mentioned most importantly letting out the main suddenly in an imminent collision which happens, well, every damn time.


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Thanks for the pics Paulo. I think this setup is ideal for a cruisers and it is a great boat. But I'm looking at this in a racing perspective where you have to move the car up and down to optimize and like Erick mentioned most importantly letting out the main suddenly in an imminent collision which happens, well, every damn time.


To let go the main you don't need the traveler and you can do that on the J 409 from the wheel.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

One does not need to worry about the coach roof traveler as mentioned in the 409, even racing. X-yachts IIRC is using a very similar design main sheet. As are other race oriented boats. The thing I do not like, is only one winch to handle ALL the sheets on a side, be it the main, jib, or spin. It would be nice to have 2 winches per side for these sails if racing. Otherwise, I would have no problem with the 409 setup racing. Altho a longer mainsheet track is nice!

Not sure what the pic is that Paulo is showing, altho it does have the look of the 439 DS44 version. So it could be a jeanneau I have not heard about. or same designer but a bene! With that, off to walk the pirate puppy in avatar at the marina!

Marty


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## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> On the contrary, I think this is a very intelligent question!
> 
> I agree with Paulo that the possibility to fit a bimini is probably the most important reason why so many production boats have only a short traveler on the coach roof. Charterers want bimini's and charter companies are very important clients for mass production boatyards.
> 
> ....
> Having the downhaul at hand to release it in case of emergency is a good thing. But to be able to master and trim a big mainsail, especially upwind, a performant traveler is essential. Unless you have a very powerful downhaul to control the leach and twist of the sail efficiently, which production boats almost never provide. In addition, the increasingly popular German sheeting system is not practical to respond quickly to puffs and lulls by means of the main sheet.
> 
> A traveler on the coachroof is completely out of hand, impossible to manage without using the winches and therefore almost never used. So I wonder why most builders even bother to fit it&#8230;
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


A big bimini is not only important to the "charters" but to any cruiser on a hot climate were most people sails. If you do not have a big bimini you have to mount some kind of shade (a tent on the boom) when you are at anchor.

That is a lot less practical and besides you cannot use it when sailing and the small bimini that a traveler aft permits is not always sufficient to provide shade when you sail. A traveler aft also obstructs the cockpit and make it less agreeable to "passengers".

I will trade the nice things a good big bimini provides and a less clean cockpit by a traveler near the wheel but that is a personal choice and one that is pretty marginal. Most cruisers will chose the big bimini and that's why practically all cruising boats have the traveler over the cabin. Only the cruiser racers have the traveler on the back of the boat because only the ones that chose that kind of boat prefer that option.

The Jeanneau 409 is a cruiser, a fast cruiser, but with no pretensions to be a cruiser racer and so almost all the ones that would chose that boat would prefer the traveler over the cabin.

And Erick you are right, most of the cruisers don't really use the traveler and that's why most of the big production cruisers don't have a traveler anymore:

The Hanses, the Bavarias, the Benetau and even the new Jeanneau 379 don't have one. I believe that the Jeanneau 409 still has one (and not a small one) because it is more sportive than the other mentioned cruisers and the sailors that will buy it will probably use it and want one.

Regarding what you say about the traveler I agree with you, it is not practical to respond quickly to puffs and lulls, unless you have a crew member on it, but otherwise you can perfectly shape the main correctly with it ( I used one on the Bavaria 36). With another crew member on it, providing it is a strong one you don't need to use the winches to control the traveler. Many times on strong winds me and my kid played with the boat, kind of doing 8K with 25/30K wind with a 2th reef at 90º. The boat on the limit reacted as a big dingy and it was indispensable a lot of work with the traveler and the wheel.

Contrary to the cruisers that have the main boom control on the cockpit (most of them), with the German sheeting you can really respond quickly to any emergency letting the boom go even if you sail solo.

Not as good and practical as having the main boom control and the traveller at hand but certainly a lot better than having both controls over the cockpit as it is usual in all cruisers without German sheeting.

I think that you would agree that a good traveler over the cockpit is a lot better than no traveler at all and that is what the Jeanneau 409 has and the vast majority of other cruisers don't have, a traveler and the main boom control line at the wheel

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

PCP said:


> Eh!Eh! you are shooting a lot: With Jeanneau and Benetau you are taking a lot of options....but no, you have missed...on the brand and on the designer
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I figured that, just did not want to go see if i could find it!

Off with the doggy I go!


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## myocean

PCP said:


> Eh!Eh! you are shooting a lot: With Jeanneau and Benetau you are taking a lot of options....but no, you have missed...on the brand and on the designer


I have just tested if Home | YACHT.DE is offering up to date information. They do and so I figured out what this is...

Looks like heavy.


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## PCP

myocean said:


> I have just tested if Home*|*YACHT.DE is offering up to date information. They do and so I figured out what this is...
> 
> Looks like heavy.


Yes, that's were I have got the information

That's the new *Bavaria Vision*, the first of the new series, a *46ft*.










About being a bit heavy that should not surprise because Bavaria had opted to stop the race for the lighter boat and concentrate on doing solid boats. They now own Dufour and Grand Soleil for lighter and faster boats.

This one is going to be a pure cruiser but remember that the Vision boats were faster and had a better B/D ratio than the "normal" cruisers from Bavaria. I bet this one is continuing that trend, more heavy than the competition but with a better B/D and that means with more "power" to use sails.

The boat is designed by Farr and it looks a lot better than previous Bavaria. Let's hope that the design is not misleading and hope that Bavaria has put a good interior designer doing the inside. That is one of the weak points of Bavarias regarding French and Italian boats: Same quality interior, but worse design.

By the way, Bavarias, almost all range, was tested by the "Bluewater magazine" and they say almost embarrassingly well of all the boats. They got wind and sailed the boats impressively fast.

I had read the full review, were they talk about speeds but for the ones that are interested in this type of boats here is a short resume:

http://www.bavariayachts.com/blog/w.../05/blue-water-sailing-bavaria-in-america.pdf

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

JAndersB said:


> I saw the video 2 months ago so I have to take it from memory but basically he had only good things to say.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders







Thanks Anders,

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Update on the jeanneau 376: a small video and boat photos:

the video:

‪Sun Odyssey 379‬‏ - YouTube

The photos:




























Pity the hig freeboard but just look at this galley




























The boat has a great polar speed. I hope that she can really sail like that This is a fast boat.


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## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> And Erick you are right, most of the cruisers don't really use the traveler and that's why most of the big production cruisers don't have a traveler anymore.
> 
> Many times on strong winds me and my kid played with the boat, kind of doing 8K with 25/30K wind with a 2th reef at 90º. The boat on the limit reacted as a big dingy and it was indispensable a lot of work with the traveler and the wheel.
> 
> I think that you would agree that a good traveler over the cockpit is a lot better than no traveler at all and that is what the Jeanneau 409 has and the vast majority of other cruisers don't have, a traveler and the main boom control line at the wheel


I agree, Paulo. An uncluttered cockpit is certainly most important for most cruisers, who value a bimini that can stay up when sailing and better access to the bathing platform more than sailing performance. Since many cruisers probably do not understand the use of a traveler anyway, it makes perfect sense not to fit any at all.

Compared with both the mainsheet and the traveler completely out of hand on the coach roof, the German sheeting system should indeed allow you to ease the mainsail from the helm in case of emergency.

But for active upwind sailing, quickly easing and hauling in puffs and lulls, nothing beats a full-size and well purchased traveler positioned aft, right under the clew of the mainsail. 
I really think it takes somebody like Paulo at the helm, plus an athletic and well motivated kid at the coach roof to be able to perform this kind of active sailing with what most production boats offer as a mainsail traveler .

Of course, I perfectly understand that this of no importance whatsoever to most users. Every day we can see very loosely hoisted sails, horrible sheeting angles and even sails without battens, while everyone on board is perfectly happy. As long as no-one gets as fuzzy about security issues, this can be perfectly OK.

So once again, it comes down to making the right, personal and well informed choices. 
But I personally wouldn't be happy without a good mainsail traveler.

Best regards,

Eric


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## JAndersB

One another thing I forgot in the Opium 39 review was that the engine size and poor performance under engine is not an issue since it seems to have been due to a too small prop. On my boat we put a bigger flex-o-fold on the standard 30 hp Yanmar and performance is great. 6,7 knots at 2500 rews and feeling like a planing motor boat at top speed 8 knots.

Regards,
Anders


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## MikeWhy

PCP said:


> And with that post and the previous I think the traveler subject is completely covered.


Hunter's arch mounted traveller deserves at least passing mention in this context.


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## EricKLYC

JAndersB said:


> One another thing I forgot in the Opium 39 review was that the engine size and poor performance under engine is not an issue since it seems to have been due to a too small prop. On my boat we put a bigger flex-o-fold on the standard 30 hp Yanmar and performance is great. 6,7 knots at 2500 rews and feeling like a planing motor boat at top speed 8 knots.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


I'm also very happy to hear that, Anders. 
When sailing the Pogo 10.50 I was dissapointed about the performance under engine and I'm not shure this will be any better with the 12.50. Like your Opium, they are beamy and light displacement boats and may be they will also benefit from a bigger propeller. 
I will certainly discuss this with the yard!

Best regards,

Eric


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## rockDAWG

Hmmm. I miss Paulo's daily update of this thread. It must the starting of their summer vacation.  I will look forward another update in two months. Those Europeans sure have a good life; we are the slaves of the world. :hammer


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## myocean

Meanwhile I am more and more drifting towards multihull. The Outremer 42 looks really attractive to me. A kind of Cat-Pogo, may be even faster, but with more comfort (more space) and even less draft (go closer to the beach).


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## myocean

Look here 
Outremer 42

Length: 13,10 m
Width: 7,00 m
Draft: 0, 70 - 2,30 m
Displacement: 7,1 / 9,4 T
Mast hight: 17.80 m
Main sail: 65 m2
Solent: 29 m2
Gennaker: 65 m2
Spinnaker: 98 m2

OK, this is certainly more pricey but I compare with an Pogo 12 .50 and I am seeing so much more comfort/space while the fun factor is probably the same.
Would be interesting to compare the polars.
Ulf


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## bjung

There are advantages to a multihull (fast, low draft, huge space, no heeling), but for me the disadvantages( higher marina cost, the possibility to break apart in heavy weather, not self righting ) outweigh the positives.
I'm not sure the Swedestar 370 has been mentioned before, but it should appeal to the performance oriented crowd.
‪The sexy Swedish Swedestar 370‬‏ - YouTube
Yacht Södergren


----------



## Chimbatete

bjung said:


> There are advantages to a multihull (fast, low draft, huge space, no heeling), but for me the disadvantages( higher marina cost, the possibility to break apart in heavy weather, not self righting ) outweigh the positives.
> I'm not sure the Swedestar 370 has been mentioned before, but it should appeal to the performance oriented crowd.
> ‪The sexy Swedish Swedestar 370‬‏ - YouTube
> Yacht Södergren


Its a very nice boat but very expensive. For that money I think from what Paulo has posted the Danes seem to have it right with the perfect package of high performance cruisers , X-Yachts, Luffe and the Dragonfly 35.

I think for anyone not crossing Oceans on a monthly basis, these are the perfect boats. Perfect for the lake round the buoy, long distance races, cruising and entertaining and beautiful at dock and still can go offshore if needed.


----------



## bjung

Chimbatete said:


> Its a very nice boat but very expensive. For that money I think from what Paulo has posted the Danes seem to have it right with the perfect package of high performance cruisers , X-Yachts, Luffe and the Dragonfly 35.
> 
> I think for anyone not crossing Oceans on a monthly basis, these are the perfect boats. Perfect for the lake round the buoy, long distance races, cruising and entertaining and beautiful at dock and still can go offshore if needed.


If you check , you will find the Swedestar is actually less expensive then X -Yachts and Luffe. The Dragonfly is not ocean worthy enough to be in that company, a lake sailor.
Compared with the XC 38, the Swedestar has 5000lbs. less displacement while carrying the same amout of canvas. You can bet it will be faster in light air, but will also have to be reefed early. Not exactly what I am looking for, but worthy of a mention. If I was buying a 37 some footer, it would be either HR372, Xc 38 or Regina 38.
http://www.x-yachts.com/uploads/xc_38review.pdf


----------



## Chimbatete

bjung said:


> If you check , you will find the Swedestar is actually less expensive then X -Yachts and Luffe. The Dragonfly is not ocean worthy enough to be in that company, a lake sailor.
> Compared with the XC 38, the Swedestar has 5000lbs. less displacement while carrying the same amout of canvas. You can bet it will be faster in light air, but will also have to be reefed early. Not exactly what I am looking for, but worthy of a mention. If I was buying a 37 some footer, it would be either HR372, Xc 38 or Regina 38.
> http://www.x-yachts.com/uploads/xc_38review.pdf


I'm surprised that its less expensive because Swede boats are generally in the >$500k range for 40 footers.

I guess if I lived in the East or West Coast I would dream of the Malos and "relatively" fast cruisers like you mentioned. They are great boats. But for what I need it for and my sailing location a performance Cruiser would be perfect. Like the Luffe 40.04, even the Opium 39.

My typical summer week is 2 weeknight crewing on races, weekend cruising and ocassional crewing weekend Regattas. Now Id love to do long distance races within the Great Lakes as well.

So I have some perfect boats in mind for what I'm going to do. Theres two types for me, dream boats and most likely boats.

Dream boats are those I've mentioned in my prior post, X yachts xp line wouldn't be bad, Arconas etc.

Reality is even if I have the money, its unlikely to go into getting one of those. There is some achievable dream boats though like the Jeanneau 409,
First 30 but I'll have to wait for used ones.


----------



## EricKLYC

myocean said:


> Meanwhile I am more and more drifting towards multihull. The Outremer 42 looks really attractive to me. A kind of Cat-Pogo, may be even faster, but with more comfort (more space) and even less draft (go closer to the beach).


Comparing monohulls with multihulls is of course quite tricky, but it certainly is an excellent exercise to value different characteristics. 
In this perspective I think Ulf makes a very good point by presenting a definitely performance orientated catamaran against a monohull with somewhat multihull-like characteristics.

Both are light and built in composite materials, the Outremer with dagger boards and the Pogo with a deep and slender pivoting keel.
Unfortunately, I do not know the polars of either of these boats. But both will probably very much dislike to be loaded the way liveaboards would want to. 
Otherwise they should perform very well, especially downwind and even compared to most of their mono- or multihull concurrents. But the Pogo can carry a much bigger asymmetric spinnaker and has less weight, so it should at least be able to keep up with the catamaran. And I also think almost any monohull must be more rewarding at the helm than almost any catamaran.

Although the Pogo certainly isn't the most performant monohull upwind and while the Outremer will probably beat most other catamarans, there seems to be little doubt that the VMG of the monohull will be better.
Anyone who has ever experienced two hulls, intimately tied together and trying to overcome the same seas at an angle, will agree that this quickly results in a quite chaotic and unpredictable behavior. The always massive coachroof with little or no forward view for anyone but the helmsman also does not help to make the crew feel comfortable in these situations. Therefore some might prefer the sound heel and clear view of a monohull.

Even below decks both yachts share the same philosophy, with interiors that offer all the basics but that are further kept as simple as possible to save weight and avoid unnecessary trouble and maintenance. 
The Outremer 42 has limited space inside compared to more cruising oriented catamarans, but is still much more roomy than even the most generous monohull. The Pogo 12.50 has much more space in- and outside than almost any other monohull of comparable size, but can never compete with the Outremer in this prospect. At anchor, nothing beats the trampoline of a catamaran, the panoramic saloon, the huge and sheltered cockpit, the handling of the tender. And with two engines wide apart, you can hardly miss any maneuver.

Although the Pogo is not cheap and he Outremer is considered good value for money, building a catamaran will always involve more hardware and inevitably be more expensive. Of course the same goes for berthing costs.

So both yachts share the same concept of performance, simplicity and building quality.
Apart from financial considerations, liveaboards and blue water cruisers have very good reasons to prefer a catamaran. It seems this Outremer will give them excellent sailing performance and at anchor any catamaran will make you feel in paradise. 
But once a sound degree of heel is accepted, I think the monohull will be faster in almost any condition and more rewarding to sail. 
There probably are no bad choices, only personal ones. I perfectly understand your dilemma, Ulf!

Best regards,

Eric


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## Boatinglifeaway

I am really glad that companies do look to the real boating or sailing experts--the users--for input on what they make. Great job.


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## myocean

I just learned that the Outremer 42 is not built anymore. Sad. The last one has been build in 2007. It is unclear what will replace it.


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## EricKLYC

myocean said:


> I just learned that the Outremer 42 is not built anymore. Sad. The last one has been build in 2007. It is unclear what will replace it.


I think they still build them, Ulf. 
Outremer advertises the yacht on their website Catamaran Outremer - Nos Catamarans - Outremer 42 
and through brokers 2011 Outremer 42 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com.

Best regards,

Eric


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## myocean

Hi Paulo!
Well, you are at an extreme location in absolute peak season... And don't you think there is may be still a place for a 70 cm draft ship?
About the Outremer 42 availabilty: Its strage but in spite of their website they say the "... the moulds are too old now, and also this boat is too old-fashion compared to the demand. Since Xavier Desmarest bought the company he decided not to sell 42 anymore..."
Ulf


----------



## PCP

Finally the Salona 38 is on the water. It looks as good as it looked in the drawings and that's a good sign























































At the end of this month I will be at the shipyard to have a good look at it


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## bb74

That's some serious company there PCP! Looks like a nice place. Haven't been there but will head out to Corsica for 2 weeks on a SO 36i saturday and it looks like the weather will suit us well. I know, not a rocket, but the boat looks clean in Ajaccio and the Pogo guys in the Med only rent with a skipper.... 

Next time either Baleares or Croatia with friends, then family for a 10-14 day cruise - I'm thinking Croatia first, then Baléares....?

Keep us posted on the Salona. I'm heading to Structures end September to sea trial the 10.50 and see what it's like under sail. Checkbook in hand...


----------



## JAndersB

A small remark. 

In the last issue of german Yacht there is an article about chartering from out of Marseille. The boat they are chartering is an Wauquiez Opium 39 and it is the first time I read an article about chartering where the text is more about the boat than the trip. Among other things the crew refused to stop for bathing in some nice bays and instead wanted to continue sailing, but concluded that it will mean some long beatings going back. Article ended with a conlusion that the beating back was also a joy at 8,5 knots.

I can only agree as owner of hull #11.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

MikeWhy said:


> Hunter's arch mounted traveller deserves at least passing mention in this context.


Well, a bit late for me to reply...(I was away) but yes you are right. Arch mounted travelers are also to be considered as a different type. The first ones I saw were on Malos that use them for several decades and now many boats including Hunters and Benetaus use them.

I cannot speak for them because I have never used one but if well made it seems that they could be a good option for the short crew in what regards the use from the steering wheel place.

The line system has to be a bit complicated and probably with a bit friction but they can be used while sailing with a big bimini and that is a big plus. However if the lines get jammed on top with the bimini on it seems that would not be easy to get there to clear things away.

Someone has experience with them?

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

bjung said:


> If you check , you will find the Swedestar is actually less expensive then X -Yachts and Luffe. The Dragonfly is not ocean worthy enough to be in that company, a lake sailor.
> .....


I would not call the Dragonfly 35 a lake sailor. They are stronger than the Corsair and I have already see a C27 that had circumnavigated. The Dragonflies are used mostly on Oceans and many well offshore. There was one for sail on the Caribbeans (sold quickly).

Like all good fast and demanding boats I would say they are a sailor's boat.

Well crewed it will go anywhere (even solo) but they will not be as forgiving as an Halberg-Rassy and should not be put in the hands of inexperienced sailors, at least offshore.






That's a smaller one:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

As I was in Croatia for chartering a boat I pick the opportunity to went (again) at the Salona shipyard to have a look at the new 38. I will post some photos and comments about it specially because I was lucky and could pick a test sail on the water (it was booked for some Italian clients and I went along with them).

For the ones that don't know the Salona shipyard is in Solin that today is just a continuation of Split. Salona was a Roman city (today Solin) and the boat name is a tribute to that city.

The Salona 38 is a nice and sleek boat:














































And is made with care by enthusiastic people. Last time I met and talked with the shipyard director and the resident architect (on holidays this time), this time I met Nenad, the Sales director (I had already met him on boat shows and exchanged some emails). Nenad is much more than a Sales director and is all the time thinking in ways to improve the boats and since it is the one that has more contact with the buyers, that are most of the time experienced sailors, he listen to what they have to say so he has always a handful of good ideas on the verge of becoming reality.

Funny thing, if you talk with the guys from Bennetau or Jeanneau they will take a lot of work explaining why the things you want cannot be made. On Salona they hear you with attention and if you make sense they just end up doing what you want and improving the boat.

Some pictures of the test sail and I start with this one taken when we were going out of marina Kastela: Do you recognize the boat on the background?










Yes, it is the Wally!!! We were waiting for him to open up the engines (16,800hp) to see it flying at 60K but it seems that the crisis have reached everybody and they have not the budget for fuel (that thing at speed wastes as much as a commercial jet).

The 118 WallyPower - a fast pleasure Yacht Onboard with OPC

Wally

Some more photos:





































About the test sail it was very impressive in what regards sailing without almost no wind and that is one of the reasons I want a Salona. There were virtually no wind but the girl that come with us (a regatta sailor) just motored some 2 miles in direction of the Islands in front and soon we had some weak thermic wind: 2 to 4.5K and that is enough to glide 1K over wind speed.

We had good sails ( the optional cruising carbon sails that you can see on a previous post - same boat) but did not even had a genoa, just a small front gib. Best speed approached 6K and that was truly remarkable for the conditions. Most of the time we were between 4 and 5.5K. With a code 0 we would be sailing well over 6K. That was what I was expecting but sometimes you get disappointed...not this time

Regarding the other boat characteristics I would say that the most remarkable is the size of the central storage space (between the wheels). Trully outstanding. I believe that you can put there the big six fenders and still have space. That gives two more side lockers on the outside and a dedicated gas storage space for two bottles. That is enough for me in what regards outside storage and I could have the three cabin version if the head was not so small. Well I am a big guy, perhaps a smaller guy could live with that but not me).

The lateral passage space is good and the boat was equipped with very good hardware that really worked well. The winch for the main is really near the wheel and that makes the boat easy to sail solo.

The interior quality has improved as well as the storage spaces that are very well detailed. They have a very nice teak option that with the port hulls give it a very nice ambiance. They also have an optional second cooler (a vertical one) that we have tried on the 41 and that contrary to what I expected is a very good idea: You can control better your electric consumption (one or two working) and the little one is much more cooler than the big one making it ideal for really cold beer. It has also a small freezer that can take some fish or meat.





































Normally the boats look better in the pictures but I have to say that with this one is just the opposite. I really liked what I saw, including the strong interior stainless still structure and I am very tempted for this boat.

I had asked for some minor alterations and they really try to comply with the client needs. I have asked for a big one, that makes a lot of sense to me, specially in a 38ft cruising boat that will be sailed solo offshore: more ballast and a different keel, one not designed to beat handicaps but for efficiency.

Basically I want a true torpedo keel on the end of a narrow keel and about more 250kg/300kg of ballast. The extra ballast is basically to dispense with the guys on the rail and to make it stiffer and more able to carry sail with stronger winds without reefing. If they can make that without increasing the price too much, I think this will be the one.

I will know about that soon.

Paulo


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## Chimbatete

Hi Paulo,

Just went to my first boat show. Loved the SO409, what a boat!. It had a sail away price of $250k. I looked at the First 30 ($150k) and it was great boat as well. Only thing is it didnt have a backstay. There was also a Hanse dealer which had the 400 ($250k) on display and he was almost insinuating that it was a better boat than the 409He mentioned the chines of the 409 as silly since its not a planing boat.

Another question, why is the Opium 39 selling at $350k almost the same price as a 2010 Luffe 4004 with the carbon mast ($400k). Is the Opium that good? 

How does it compare to the X's, Elans and Salona 38 for example? I'm talking about quality boat for boat not downwind vs. upwind.

BTW that Salona 38 looks awesome. Whats the price on that?

Chuck


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Just went to my first boat show. Loved the SO409, what a boat!. It had a sail away price of $250k. I looked at the First 30 ($150k) and it was great boat as well. Only thing is it didnt have a backstay. There was also a Hanse dealer which had the 400 ($250k) on display and he was almost insinuating that it was a better boat than the 409He mentioned the chines of the 409 as silly since its not a planing boat.
> 
> Another question, why is the Opium 39 selling at $350k almost the same price as a 2010 Luffe 4004 with the carbon mast ($400k). Is the Opium that good?
> 
> How does it compare to the X's, Elans and Salona 38 for example? I'm talking about quality boat for boat not downwind vs. upwind.
> 
> BTW that Salona 38 looks awesome. Whats the price on that?
> 
> Chuck


Hi Chimbatete,

It seems you do really like boats

Yes boat shows are great for the ones that love boats even when they don't have money to buy them right now. If you ever get the chance go to Dusseldorf, that's the Mecca of sailboats and also a nice place to have a look at central Europe.

So many questions. Yes the Opium is a Wauquiez and they were for many years the top range of the Benetau group, a kind of a Lexus to Nissan. Yes the Opium is a great boat and the quality is better than Benetau, Jeanneau, Hanse, Bavaria probably comparable to Dehler.

There is something wrong with your prices, a Carbon mast Luffe 4004 will cost more than what you say. Here you have an used one without carbon mast almost by that price:

For Sale. Luffe (DK) Luffe 40.04 TOP - Rostock Baltic Sea, Germany - 3126320

I believe the Jeanneau 409 is a better boat than the Hanse 400, not in quality (similar) but by design. I bet Hanse is going to substitute the 400 this year.

Regarding X yachts, Salona and Elan I would say that the X yachts by price and interior quality are competing with Luffe, Arcona, Finngulf not with Salona or Elan. However there are a lot of guys that had X yachts and are buying Salonas. They are less expensive have much improved the interior and share with X yachts (and Luffe) an interior steel frame to take the efforts from the keel and shrouds (now it seems that X yachts is using a carbon frame).

The Elan are great boats and the design is very good (350) are well built but for what I have saw in the new Salona 41 that I have charted, the Salona interior is now a bit better and I would prefer the safety of the Salona stainless steel frame. But Elan and Salona are really on the same market building boats that in my opinion are a bit better than mass production boats.

Another difference with Salona is that they allow a certain amount of boat customization and that is very rare in boats with this price and only possible because Salona is still a small company. Salonas will cost about the same as Elans, about 20% less than a Dehler and about 20% more than a First.

Final note: The First 30 is a great boat and it has no backstay because it is designed that way and don't need one. Some other performance boats like the Pogo don't also have them.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

I had already said that I didn't like the drawings for the Dehler 41 interior. They seemed to be designed by the team that designs the Hanse (Dehler belongs now to Hanse) and they are far away in quality from the best Italian and French interior designers.










Well, my fears were confirmed, they finally posted the photos from the interior (a looong way after they have posted the outside photos), they changed some things regarding the drawings but the interior is still very poor, dark, Hanse like and unimaginative. To put things even worse they have hull portlights on the cabins but not on the saloon. That makes no sense at all and contributes to that gloomy interior. The mast is almost on the middle of the saloon. If they really need the mast there they should have gone for another type of mast, I mean deck stepped, except on racing boats were the interior does not matter so much.





































A sad story: How to ruin a very nice sailing boat with a really bad interior. I had some months back a good offer to buy a Hanse 41 when the boat was still in the making....Jesus, I am happy to have gone another way

They had lowered the prices of the 41, comparing with the 39 but the interior seems to be of lower quality and mainly the interior design sucks!!!

A bad move to have the interior designed by the Hanse team. The best French and Italian designers are so much better that makes no sense to stay with the home team. They need a good interior designer and they needed it quickly.

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

Hey PCP - a while back you highlighted a cruising boat that a racer had designed...along the lines of the Open style. It had a crazy rotating nav station. What boat was that?


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## JAndersB

smackdaddy said:


> Hey PCP - a while back you highlighted a cruising boat that a racer had designed...along the lines of the Open style. It had a crazy rotating nav station. What boat was that?


It was this, I guess:
http://www.jpdick-yachts.com/index.php?lang=EN

Furthermore, I had a look at both the Dehler 41 and new Arcona 410 this last weekend at the open yard show at Hallberg-Rassy. I agree with you Paulo, the Dehler 41 did not give any nice vibrations. Furthermore, to lead the jib sheet through a bulls eye in the middle of the side deck, making at least a 40 degree bend without any roller bearings or block seems crazy to me. The Arcona did also feel "old fashion".

The Jeanneau 409, which I have seen before, still is a real show winner. With double rudders and a little bit of "performance" in her it would definitively be interesting.

Regarding pricing and Opium price I am still finding out all the time from my boat why it has a higher price. Arriwing back at home harbour I tried to close the toilet water intake. I had to follow the piping through the whole interior before I found it in the middle of the boat just behind the keel even if toilet is on the port sider in the front. This way it does not suck air on a beat. Full balsa hull and sandwich interior, oversized and plenty of deck gear, I still have a bag full of top of the line Harken gear that was left over, are other things that push the price up even if I agree that it is expensive.

Regards,
Anders


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## tdw

Paulo,
I was on a Salona 39 at the recent Sydney boat show and I confess the quality of the interior appointments disappointed me. Now the Sydney Boat Show is a piss poor event in the main. The usual suspects are there of course but there is very little beyond your typical production cruiser racer. I expected the Salona to stand out from the crowd. It didn't.

Cheers
Andrew


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## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> I was on a Salona 39 at the recent Sydney boat show and I confess the quality of the interior appointments disappointed me. Now the Sydney Boat Show is a piss poor event in the main. The usual suspects are there of course but there is very little beyond your typical production cruiser racer. I expected the Salona to stand out from the crowd. It didn't.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew


Andrews there is some confusion here: The Salona has not a 39. It has a 34 a 38 a 41 a 44 and it will have a 60.

Home - Salona Yachts

You could have seen an old 37 (I sailed the first 38 some days back in Croatia and the boat is going to Cannes boat show) or perhaps a 41?

Salona has a stupid politic in what regards boat shows: While all the others big brands show brand new boats Salona show demo boats that show some use and furthermore they don't put the boats in tip top shape, I mean regarding adjusting cabinet doors drawers, that sort of stuff furthermore and even more important while big companies have a very professional approach in what regards interior and exterior lighting of the boat (more lightening that the one used on the boat interior and outside projectors giving more interior illumination) they just present the boat with its own illumination and without having projectors helping. I don't need to tell you the importance of lightening on a boat presentation. Maybe they have not the means to do otherwise.

I have already noticed this on several boat shows and have even told them that they should improve the presentation of their boats on boat shows and improve lighting.

What I can tell you for sure is that I have charted last year a brand new Dufour 425 and this year a brand new Salona 41. The Dufour are the more expensive and better finished of all French mass production sail boats and I can tell you that without any doubt the Salona 41 was not only better finished but had also better quality material everywhere, I mean from the cabinet lockers to the door knobs. At least that is my opinion after sailing both boats for at least a week.

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

Anders,

Funny thing about your comment re the 409 and a bit of performance. Three of us on the Jeanneau-owners.com forum site, were all saying a bit more power, ie about a meter taller mast, deeper keel or a iron/lead option, upgraded winches both on the deck and cabin top, with 2 sets of winches on the deck for HS and spins. Probably slightly deeper thinner rudders, 3 reef ability on the main to name a few things we all thought would be good to have, ie a super performance over the std P version, which really only has a folding prop, upgraded deck gear and spin option. If one is going to upgrade, lets do a serious UPGRADE to the PERFORMANCE of the boat! 

I have not seen one yet.....there is a boat show in Seattle in a couple of weeks, hopefully will have a chance to gander at the 409 and 379.

marty


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Hey PCP - a while back you highlighted a cruising boat that a racer had designed...along the lines of the Open style. It had a crazy rotating nav station. What boat was that?


Hey Smack, Anders is right, it is the JP 52. I posted about it on post 172 and I believe someone talked about the boat more recently.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats-18.html

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

JAndersB said:


> It was this, I guess:
> http://www.jpdick-yachts.com/index.php?lang=EN
> 
> Furthermore, I had a look at both the Dehler 41 and new Arcona 410 this last weekend at the open yard show at Hallberg-Rassy. I agree with you Paulo, the Dehler 41 did not give any nice vibrations. Furthermore, to lead the jib sheet through a bulls eye in the middle of the side deck, making at least a 40 degree bend without any roller bearings or block seems crazy to me. The Arcona did also feel "old fashion".
> 
> The Jeanneau 409, which I have seen before, still is a real show winner. With double rudders and a little bit of "performance" in her it would definitively be interesting.
> 
> Regarding pricing and Opium price I am still finding out all the time from my boat why it has a higher price. Arriwing back at home harbour I tried to close the toilet water intake. I had to follow the piping through the whole interior before I found it in the middle of the boat just behind the keel even if toilet is on the port sider in the front. This way it does not suck air on a beat. Full balsa hull and sandwich interior, oversized and plenty of deck gear, I still have a bag full of top of the line Harken gear that was left over, are other things that push the price up even if I agree that it is expensive.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


That's it! Thanks Anders.

Okay, a question for you guys:

I have a client who's toying with the idea of buying a very big, very luxurious, very fast boat. (I got him hooked into sailing over the past year.) Here is the list I've given him:

1. JP54
2. X-Yachts 65
3. Oyster 82
4. Swan 80

Personally, my favorite is the Swan 80. I have to get this right because I'll be "helping him" sail it (along with a pro skipper and a few crew of course). No joke.

So what have I left off the list?


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Anders,
> 
> Funny thing about your comment re the 409 and a bit of performance. Three of us on the Jeanneau-owners.com forum site, were all saying a bit more power, ie about a meter taller mast, deeper keel or a iron/lead option, upgraded winches both on the deck and cabin top, with 2 sets of winches on the deck for HS and spins. Probably slightly deeper thinner rudders, 3 reef ability on the main to name a few things we all thought would be good to have, ie a super performance over the std P version, which really only has a folding prop, upgraded deck gear and spin option. If one is going to upgrade, lets do a serious UPGRADE to the PERFORMANCE of the boat!
> 
> I have not seen one yet.....there is a boat show in Seattle in a couple of weeks, hopefully will have a chance to gander at the 409 and 379.
> 
> marty


Marty, the problem with that is that it is expensive

The Jeanneau 409 on the performance version has already plenty of sail for its righting moment and I bet the boat will reef with not to much wind. To put more power on the boat (more sail) you have to increase righting moment and you can do that with a deeper keel and lead ballast or with lead and more ballast.

That is expensive but not as much as the hull reinforcements needed to take the extra stress. With all the other stuff you talk about (bigger winches, more winches) that would turn the 409 in an expensive boat. If Jeanneau does no do that is because they believe that they would not sell enough boats to make it profitable.

Anyway you could make it a better performance boat but not really a competitive cruiser-racer: The bow entries are just not fine enough to make it a upwind beast. The boat was designed to be a cruiser and on those the front cabin has precedence over top upwind performance.

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

paulo,

For those of use with Jeanneau's, wanting to stay with jeanneau........ we can only hope!

RIght now, I have to admit, not sure I would buy a new one. Altho wife does like them, not sure I would. An X34 or 37, maybe a 35, or an Elan 350......to name a few. There was another a few pages back I really liked the evosion 35, but wife thought it was a bit plain on the interior.....

For those of use thinking of upgrading the 409, we assume it would add some to the bill! 

Marty


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## tdw

PCP said:


> Andrews there is some confusion here: The Salona has not a 39. It has a 34 a 38 a 41 a 44 and it will have a 60.
> 
> Home - Salona Yachts
> 
> You could have seen an old 37 (I sailed the first 38 some days back in Croatia and the boat is going to Cannes boat show) or perhaps a 41?
> 
> What I can tell you for sure is that I have charted last year a brand new Dufour 425 and this year a brand new Salona 41. The Dufour are the more expensive and better finished of all French mass production sail boats and I can tell you that without any doubt the Salona 41 was not only better finished but had also better quality material everywhere, I mean from the cabinet lockers to the door knobs. At least that is my opinion after sailing both boats for at least a week.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,
Maybe a 41 then. I have the details at home, not here at the office. 
Ref the new Dehlers, I agree. As you know we looked at a couple of Hanses before we bought the Malo and the interiors really disppointed me. Then we looked at two new Hanse at the Sydney show and they did nothing for me. Awful things, particularly the new 495. That was really (for me) horrible). 
I went on board a Dehler 45 a couple of years back and if I had the money I would have bought that boat then and there. Beautiful thing, superb fitout, all good. Now, just a slightly up market Hanse. Sad.
Cheers
Andrew


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## SloopJonB

JAndersB said:


> It was this, I guess:
> JP54, the fast cruising yacht - JPDICK yachts - JP54


Wild, original design. It strongly reminds me of the interior of Discovery I, the Jupiter spacecraft in 2001, A Space Odyssey.

It might be very nice in El Caribe or other hot climes but I think I still prefer teak or cherry & brass.


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## PCP

SloopJonB said:


> Wild, original design. It strongly reminds me of the interior of Discovery I, the Jupiter spacecraft in 2001, A Space Odyssey.
> 
> It might be very nice in El Caribe or other hot climes but I think I still prefer teak or cherry & brass.


Yes I agree with you regarding the Star wars ambiance. I could not live there comfortably. The Draft limitations also will put restrictions regarding cruising.

But I would not mind to live in the Ourson Rapide, a similar boat designed by Jean Mary Finot for a rich and lucky guy. The boat has the same pedigree (Open 60) but is a less bit radical. It is all carbon, has liquid ballasts but instead of a canting keel has a lifting keel that permits the boat to have a "normal" draft while on anchor or at the marina.

Take a look at the polar speeds:










It is enough for you?

And about the interior?




























This boat is designed to be solo sailed by an experienced sailor or to be solo sailed by a "normal" couple.

Isn't it beautiful?









































































Ourson Rapide | finot-conq architectes navals

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> My God, you are a lucky guy...I mean if you are not joking
> 
> I would take the Oyster out of that list (not fast enough) and I could add plenty boats but you have to explain better what you mean by fast. The JP54 is very fast but would rate very badly in regatta racing. That one is intended to cross oceans fast with a very small crew. There are others with the same program.
> 
> The Swan 80 or the X 65 are a completely different beasts and they are boats that will rate well but will need a full crew to be sailed fast.
> 
> Tell me between these two types what is the one that is more adapted to the program your friend want and I will post some suggestions. Meanwhile have a look at this post:
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo, luckily for me, I'm not joking on this one...which is rare. We'll see what happens in the end, but he's got the means to do it if he sees what he wants.

In that regard, as you might imagine, he wants it all. So I'm trying to help him narrow down some options that will work for him. He definitely wants fast. And he'll probably want to dabble in regattas (and will have no trouble securing crew for them). But, he also wants something very cool and luxurious as well (i.e. - not a balls-out, stripped down racer). So it's got to be that mix.

From his perspective, the best example of this mix I can give you at this point is his favorite private jet: Challenger CL60. Very fast jet, but really luxe on the interior (white leather seats, white carpet, dark woods, etc.). He wants a boat like that.

Knowing his sense of style (European Modernist), I think he'll love everything about the JP54. And though I really like that boat, I think it's too limited based on what he wants - and will give him your additional feedback above.

The Oyster was in the mix purely because of its more "opulent" interior - to offer a counter to the more modern, simpler interiors of the Swan and the X (which he likes better anyway).

Finally, though he could go with a custom design (like the Ourson which I'll show him - thanks for that), I think he really wants to stick with a series brand for his first boat.

So let me know if you have other boats that fit this genre. I've looked at the Luffe, and a couple others you mentioned above, but hadn't really looked at the Grand Soleil. That could definitely work. Is the 72' in production? What are some of the Italian boats that you think are comparable in this range?


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> ...
> 
> In that regard, as you might imagine, he wants it all. So I'm trying to help him narrow down some options that will work for him. He definitely wants fast. And he'll probably want to dabble in regattas (and will have no trouble securing crew for them). But, he also wants something very cool and luxurious as well (i.e. - not a balls-out, stripped down racer). So it's got to be that mix.
> 
> ...
> 
> Knowing his sense of style (European Modernist), ...
> 
> ....


You make it too easy. If what he wants is fast, top European modern design, top prestige, style and has the money for it the boat he is looking for is a Wally. That's what the really rich guys with good taste are buying....well, I don't know if he is that rich If not I can post less expensive options later.

Take a look at the Esence:































































































































and some other Wallies:























































Wally Yachts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wally

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

Bingo!! That's exactly the kind of thing he'll like!

Man you're good!


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## SecondWindNC

Holy smokes, that's gorgeous. Think they'll build me one in exchange for my left arm?


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## PCP

SecondWindNC said:


> Holy smokes, that's gorgeous. Think they'll build me one in exchange for my left arm?


Maybe a smaller one





































Regards

Paulo


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## SecondWindNC

Nice.


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Bingo!! That's exactly the kind of thing he'll like!
> 
> Man you're good!


Thanks!

If he does not want to spend that kind of money perhaps a Gieffe 60?





































Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> Take a look at the Esence:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Those Wally's have always been gorgeous but a little TOO smooth for my taste. If I'm going to spend three times my net worth on a toy boat, it has to have a pair of coffee grinders on deck for me to perch on and view the envious peasants on the dock while enjoying my morning cuppa. 

I love cool sailboat gear and the two coolest pieces of gear ever are coffee grinders and those semi-transparent, carbon fiber load path sails.


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## PCP

Hei Smack, another option, an intelligent one, I would say is the new Salona 60. I bet this one is going to quick ass at the regatta circuit it is fully customizable and will cost less than the Italian or the Nordic ones.

I find it beautifully:














































This is a boat that will sail mainly between 10 and 12K and like all Salonas it will need little wind to sail at those speeds. Downwind with strong winds it will go much faster.

The first one is already sold and they plan to launch it next April. They say the boat has been sold to a sail celebrity but don't say to whom. A Sailor's boat sold to a good sailor probably to Nexus owner, Dean Barker (Emirates Team NZ America's Cup skipper).

The boat was designed by Jason Ker one of my favorite designers. The Ker are among the fastest boats on the race circuit.

Ker Design

Description - Salona Yachts

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Let's stop talking about dream boats and talk about boats most people buy and among those the Benetau Oceanis is one of the bestsellers. The 40ft boats are now probably the boats that sell more so let's have a look at the new 41 an important boat made to counteract the Jeanneau 409 domination on this important sector. This boat need to be good because the 409 is really a benchmark.



























































































Before saying something about this boat I would like to hear your comments so please say what you think about it. Do you like it?

http://www.beneteau.com/Sailing-Yachts/Oceanis/Oceanis-41

Regards

Paulo


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## bb74

blt2ski said:


> Anders,
> 
> Funny thing about your comment re the 409 and a bit of performance. Three of us on the Jeanneau-owners.com forum site, were all saying a bit more power, ie about a meter taller mast, deeper keel or a iron/lead option, upgraded winches both on the deck and cabin top, with 2 sets of winches on the deck for HS and spins. Probably slightly deeper thinner rudders, 3 reef ability on the main to name a few things we all thought would be good to have, ie a super performance over the std P version, which really only has a folding prop, upgraded deck gear and spin option. If one is going to upgrade, lets do a serious UPGRADE to the PERFORMANCE of the boat!
> 
> I have not seen one yet.....there is a boat show in Seattle in a couple of weeks, hopefully will have a chance to gander at the 409 and 379.
> 
> marty


Just got back from a 2 week bareboat charter of a SO 36i in Corsica and will have notes / comments tomorrow. Needless to say, everything you mentioned above is a must for someone that want's to have "fun" sailing one of these things.


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## PCP

bb74 said:


> Just got back from a 2 week bareboat charter of a SO 36i in Corsica and will have notes / comments tomorrow. Needless to say, everything you mentioned above is a must for someone that want's to have "fun" sailing one of these things.


And please compare it with the Benetau oceanis 36 that you have sailed some time back.

Regarding performance and sail boats the problem is that performance is expensive and small differences in speed cost a lot of money. But you are right more important than speed is the feeling and the fun, they are priceless

Some years back I found a French Benetau dealer that was willing to modify an Oceanis Benetau 36 to make it a performance boat (on the lines of what Marty says). He had taken notes and made me an offer: it was ridiculous expensive The boat was not an inexpensive boat anymore but an expensive boat, as expensive as other performance boats and off course, with a much bigger devaluation as a used boat. That's the problem...

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

While we are waiting on those comments on the Benetau 41 and for bb74 review, take a look at some interesting boats I saw while sailing:

This Schooner, that I found out is for sale for not too much money:










and this replica of a Phoenician sail boat, a cargo one:


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## PCP

First image of the new Dufour 36 performance:










I like it. A Felci design, probably to substitute the 34P.


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## Chimbatete

Hi Paulo and Anders,

While reading up on all these performance cruisers it seems like the Opium 39 has the best combination of upwind and downwind performance for 40 footers. 

From some of the numbers, it seems to point better than a Pogo and better downwind than narrow boats like the Luffes ,Xs, Salonas. Interior seems better from the pics than the Js. Seems like a perfect racer/cruiser.

Am I making sense with regards to this boat?


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## tdw

PCP said:


> Hei Andrews,
> 
> If you have the catalog at home I would like to know if you have seen the 37 or the 41.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,
It was the 41. To me it didn't offer a great deal more than the Hanse. Maybe it was just that I expected more. I must admit though that for the money the Salona's look the goods though for mine I'd rather go for something a bit more up market and a few years old.

I fully appreciate that I lose out in performance and some of the more modern bits and pieces.

I was watching a new Beneteau out on Sydney Harbour last weekend. Must say they are an impressive boat to look at and a good turn of speed. I don't know if it was the 41 (are they likely to be in Oz yet ?) but going on what I saw at the boat show and looking at your post I can't say I think much of the interior. I'd rather less open space in the fore cabin and bring the v-berth further aft, while I still want a purpose built chart table and seat. I know they are not really used for navigation any more but I like the desk with a comfortable seat. The more I see of them the less impressed I am with any of the modern crop of Ikea interiors.

Gieffe 60 - now that is impressive.

Essence is just plain silly. I don't get that at all. To me the sailing boat equivalent of those gawd awful ****'n'balls stink boats.


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## PCP

After being sailing and cruising for a month and a half without internet I was catching up and found out an amazing report about the last Fastnet (August) the biggest edition with more than 300 boats and this time with much more true racing sail machines.

The race had strong winds and it has a hard and fast race and the big news are the *VOR 70*:




























The three made an incredible race beating all 100fts including the record older, Leopard. They arrived 1th, 2th and 3th on monohulls (real time), all the three beating the old record that belonged to the 100ft Leopard (2007).

The winner was a surprise, the Arab boat with a British skipper, beating Groupama with Camas for just 4 minutes (they had a lot of problems on Groupama).

http://www.regattanews.com/pressrelease.aspx?cid=17962&lid=1&eid=187&year=2011

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Azzam takes record-breaking Fastnet win

The race could be even more interesting if the Maxi Rambler (100ft) would not have lost its keel when was leading the monohull race (mid-race). It was then chased closed by Leopard and the three VOR 70.

Some interesting videos:

http://www.regattanews.com/gallery.aspx?eid=187&cid=17927&ctid=2&year=2011

Volvo 70s in Record Breaking Fastnet Battle - Volvo Ocean Race 2011-12 1080P HD - YouTube

Volvo Open 70s shine at the Rolex Fastnet Race - Volvo Ocean Race 2011-12 1080P HD - YouTube

Rolex Fastnet Race 2011: the start - YouTube

Rolex Fastnet Race 2011 start - YouTube

http://www.regattanews.com/gallery.aspx?eid=187&cid=17961&ctid=2&year=2011

But of course, line honors went to Banque Populaire the big trimaran that only needed a bit more than half the time of the fastest monohull to complete the race

Fastnet 2011: Loïck Peyron bat 2 records sur Banque Populaire ! - YouTube


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## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> Let's stop talking about dream boats and talk about boats most people buy and among those the Benetau Oceanis is one of the bestsellers. The 40ft boats are now probably the boats that sell more so let's have a look at the new 41 an important boat made to counteract the Jeanneau 409 domination on this important sector. This boat need to be good because the 409 is really a benchmark.
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before saying something about this boat I would like to hear your comments so please say what you think about it. Do you like it?
> 
> Oceanis 41 / Oceanis / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I like the boat okay I guess...but I'm perplexed. So was Hunter the visionary on the whole arch thing? Hunter leading Beneteau?

Actually, I'm just not diggin' the arch...on any boat. Yes, it does clean up the cockpit a great deal (I remember commenting on the amount of line in Giu's cockpit back in the day), but it just looks a little goofy.


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## Chimbatete

Damn Team Sanya placing third is a huge accomplishment. Someones unlucky China has a shot.


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## smackdaddy

Was _Mar Mostro_ in this one?


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## tdw

smackdaddy said:


> I like the boat okay I guess...but I'm perplexed. So was Hunter the visionary on the whole arch thing? Hunter leading Beneteau?
> 
> Actually, I'm just not diggin' the arch...on any boat. Yes, it does clean up the cockpit a great deal (I remember commenting on the amount of line in Giu's cockpit back in the day), but it just looks a little goofy.


I'm thinking the Scandinavians might just have got there a little earlier than Hunter (and I'm not at all sure they were the first) ....

hey you calling my girl goofy ?

At dawn you swine .... pistols or swords ? 










Malö Yachts


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## smackdaddy

Damn it! I just keep stepping in the poo with you dude! My humblest apologies.


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## tdw

smackdaddy said:


> Damn it! I just keep stepping in the poo with you dude! My humblest apologies.


Ha !!! You are only apologising for fear of facing the mighty Fuzzball in mortal combat you cad .....


----------



## JAndersB

Chimbatete said:


> Hi Paulo and Anders,
> 
> While reading up on all these performance cruisers it seems like the Opium 39 has the best combination of upwind and downwind performance for 40 footers.
> 
> From some of the numbers, it seems to point better than a Pogo and better downwind than narrow boats like the Luffes ,Xs, Salonas. Interior seems better from the pics than the Js. Seems like a perfect racer/cruiser.
> 
> Am I making sense with regards to this boat?


Hi Chimbatete,
always difficult to evaluate performance since so many facors influence this. But from what I have observed now after sailing my Opium for a while is that when in non favourable conditions it is as good as other performance cruisers (Dehlers, Arcona, etc) while the advantages are still there: very light so good speed in light winds between 40-120 TWA, very quick to surf, fun to sail. Huge cockpit, twin aft cabins and big storage space and still full control due to twin rudders. And still a "normal" interior.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Hi Paulo and Anders,
> 
> While reading up on all these performance cruisers it seems like the Opium 39 has the best combination of upwind and downwind performance for 40 footers.
> 
> From some of the numbers, it seems to point better than a Pogo and better downwind than narrow boats like the Luffes ,Xs, Salonas. Interior seems better from the pics than the Js. *Seems like a perfect racer/cruiser*.
> 
> Am I making sense with regards to this boat?


Well, I would say that for Anders it is the perfect performance cruiser since he had bought one but for Eric that is waiting the delivery of a Pogo 12.50 the Pogo would be the perfect performance cruiser while for me that probably will buy a Salona 41 (or 38) the Salona would be the perfect performance cruiser

This thread is not about the perfect boat, performance cruiser or otherwise, but about good boats and their characteristics, helping sailors to find the boat that more adjust to their concept of perfect cruiser: Different sailors, different perfect cruisers, cruiser-racers or any other type

Regarding speed the only way to know is having the boats on the water at the same time and see the differences. That has already been tested by a sail magazine with a comparative test between the Opium 39, a prototype for the Pogo 12.50 and a Dufour 40e. A Dufour 40e is closer to a Salona 41 but slower and with less pointing ability. I have posted about that:



PCP said:


> ....
> 
> You should read this boat test:
> 
> YouTube - Match au sommet voiliers de 40 pieds !
> 
> They have made a comparison between a Dufour 40e, an Opium 39 and a Pogo 40 cruising (12.50 prototype). The wind was a good force 5 and the sea had short waves. Close to the wind the speed were the same (7.5), with the Opium (with a worst sail, the original was stolen) making less 5º to the true wind.
> 
> They have said that the Dufour is a little better with winds lighter than 20K and the Pogo a bit better over 20k. The Dufour is more comfortable and passes better the short waves, the Pogo passes in power (I believe that is why he needs more wind to be faster than the Dufour).
> 
> Downwind the Pogo rules with 12k with the other boats making 8/9K.


Of course, for having that performance a Pogo is a much more stripped down boat with a poorer interior than the Dufour or the Opium. That has no importance to some but would have for me.

Regarding the comparative performance of narrower performance boats like the Salona 41 or the First 40 compared with the Pogo 12.50 it all has to do with the sailing conditions: Downwind, with more than 14K a Pogo 12.50 would go away, but look at the results of the last editions of the Sydney-Hobart race and you will see that a First 40 always beat a racing Pogo 40 (more powerful than a 12.50).

The Sydney-Hobart is a race with rough weather, lots of waves and lots of upwind sailing. On those conditions a traditional cruiser racer like the First 40, the Salona 41, the X 40 or the x 122 will go faster and most of all smother than a boat like the Opium or the Pogo.

If there was a perfect type of boat for having as a performance boat, all brands would be making that same kind of boat. They are not because boats are compromises, even in what regards performance and different sailors chose different compromises even in what regards performance.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

Seems to me, Beneteau has specialized in building cheap boats for the charter trade, and the Bene O 41 is just that. The Ikea -like interior, lack of handholds, lack of opening portholes (only 3 small portholes and 1 hatch in the salon !!????) and the nav table as an afterthought ( who wants to go through the salon with dripping wet foulies to look at the chart?) clearly disqualify this boat as a proper yacht.
I don't care how good this deal is, I'd rather spend my pennies on a used older, real purposed sailing vessel, than a dock condo where the cabinetry will be adrift after a good beat.
But it all depends what one is looking for in a sailboat....


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Seems to me, Beneteau has specialized in building cheap boats for the charter trade, and the Bene O 41 is just that. The Ikea -like interior, lack of handholds, lack of opening portholes (only 3 small portholes and 1 hatch in the salon !!????) and the nav table as an afterthought ( who wants to go through the salon with dripping wet foulies to look at the chart?) clearly disqualify this boat as a proper yacht.
> I don't care how good this deal is, I'd rather spend my pennies on a used older, real purposed sailing vessel, than a dock condo where the cabinetry will be adrift after a good beat.
> But it all depends what one is looking for in a sailboat....


I can see some handholds but that is not the question. You repeatedly denigrate any boat that it is not designed with passage making in mind. That makes no sense. People that use sailboats primarily offshore are just a tiny minority, probably less than 1%.

Obviously the Benetau 41 is not designed with that objective even if the boat could be easily adapted for offshore work. The boat is designed aiming the vast majority of sailors that just want to have a short day-sailing in cruising grounds and stay lots of time on anchorages getting tanned. Nothing wrong with that. The only offshore most of these boats will make is the small day trip to get to the cruising grounds and you can bet they will sail it under a good weather report.

Saying that the boat is designed for charter is ignoring that even if charter market has importance in this kind of boats, the vast majority are sold to individual sailors. Besides I don't see what is the problem with designing a boat for charter: It has to be designed to resist all forms of abuse and the utilization that is given to the boat in charter is just the same utilization that is gonna be given by the kind of sailors that will buy Beneteau, that is the vast majority of sailors.

Certainly the Beneteau is cheap (like Bavarias and Jeanneaus). That's what gives the possibility to people to have a modern good performance sailboat. But Cheap foes not mean badly built. If they were badly built they would not dominate the market

I understand that you want for you a true passage maker. Not a problem with that if you are really going to use it that way otherwise it would be just a waste of money and you will end up with a boat much less adapted than the Benetau for coastal cruising.

By the way, I am curious why do you want a true passage maker? What are your experience? What is your sail program? Do you have a boat? Do you sail regularly?

Most people just don't know the limits of a boat like the Oceanis 41. They will take more hardship than 90% of the sailors can sustain, even if they were not designed as passage makers

Regards

Paulo


----------



## UrbanChicago

bjung said:


> Seems to me, Beneteau has specialized in building cheap boats for the charter trade, and the Bene O 41 is just that. The Ikea -like interior, lack of handholds, lack of opening portholes (only 3 small portholes and 1 hatch in the salon !!????) and the nav table as an afterthought ( who wants to go through the salon with dripping wet foulies to look at the chart?) clearly disqualify this boat as a proper yacht.
> I don't care how good this deal is, I'd rather spend my pennies on a used older, real purposed sailing vessel, than a dock condo where the cabinetry will be adrift after a good beat.
> But it all depends what one is looking for in a sailboat....


I don't think any manufacturer cares what you think if your preferred vessel is a used, older boat. Beneteau knows where the profit lies and they build boats for that market. Their Sense series is perfect for the way I use a boat most of the time (lots of inexperienced guests looking for a nice relaxing sail) - but way out of my price range unfortunately. Although in talking to the local dealer they have already sold all they can get and still have people asking them for more.


----------



## PCP

Welcome to the thread UrbanChicago

I heard that *Jimmy Cornell* has been in France to test the Allures 45 for the World Cruising Magazine. I have posted about the boat and I have said that it was a passage maker, a good long range voyager.










Jimmy Cornell seems to agree he says about the boat: *The Allures 45 is the perfect choice for sailing around the world, everywhere.*

(translated from the French)

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

The Allures makes a very argument for itself doesn't it ? I'd like to see a shot of her with the board down but she is a handsome boat in general. Maybe a bit too much glass on top ? She could get pretty damn hot down below in the tropics.

She has really sensible features in lots of areas and that twin seat chart table has got to be the kicker. How good is that ? To be able to sit and plan your passages together. Great idea.


----------



## PCP

Regarding the new Benetau 41, well for good and for bad it represents a cut with the tradition. When I saw the boat sideways it seemed a revamped 40 but the hull design is a completely different story. Compare both boats:




























So, big difference eh!

Now take a look at the shape of the Pogo 12.50 and the Opium 39:



















That's the same kind of hull, even in what regards the big lateral chine. Finot the Benetau 41 designer is also the Pogo 41 designer

Will then the Benetau 41 be some kind of inexpensive Pogo, some kind of very fast boat?

No way, the Pogo weights 5.5T the Benetau weights 8.5T. The Pogo will plan easily downwind with medium winds and the Benetau will go over hull speed downwind but will need strong wind to do that.

The Oceanis 41 seems to have remarkably thin bow entries for a cruiser but I am sure the Pogo will have them thinner. The Pogo is not a beast close upwind but it will be a lot better than the Oceanis even if I have the feeling that she is not as bad as that type of hull lead to suppose.

The Oceanis 41 seems to come in the following of the Oceanis 37, also a Finot designed boat and a boat that shares some of its characteristics even if the 41 is more radical. The Oceanis 37 is a great boat for an inexpensive boat and one of the best 36/37ft mass production cruiser around.

The boat seems a lot more "light" than the old 40 and a lot more sportive but like the old one shares some drawbacks the worse, a small Ballast/weight ratio but also a single rudder that don't seem appropriated to any sportive attempt. The Arch system give it a odd looking and don't seem to go with the boat design, but worse than that the boat has not a travel, just an easy and very basic trim system.

So, why that hull design? well UrbanChicago got it. It is for the same reason the Sense series have the same hull. As UrbanChicago says:



UrbanChicago said:


> .. Their Sense series is perfect for the way I use a boat most of the time (lots of inexperienced guests looking for a nice relaxing sail) - ..


The boat is made to sail with very little heel in a relaxing way. That's what that hull is all about: To provide a huge hull stability that permits the boat to be a very stable platform and to sail with little heel.

And what other mass production 40ft can carry almost 600L of water. The ladies are going to love that: Finaly they can wash the hair with fresh water everyday while on anchorage to take away the salt. My wife would love that

So UrbanChicago, this boat are god news for you, it will sail lake a Sense (maybe better) and it will cost a lot less.

I don't know why they have chosen that dark wood for the presentation pictures. That seems a mistake to me: the boat really look a lot better in lighter woods

Beneteau Oceanis 41 45 48 - YouTube

And the boat has also a big galley and a big head. I will be very curious about the first test sails. Finot is known to design fast hulls and even if the rigging is quite basic it can reserve us some surprises

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> The Allures makes a very argument for itself doesn't it ? I'd like to see a shot of her with the board down but she is a handsome boat in general. ...


I never saw drawing or picture of the under-body but she should not be very different from the 44 (the previous model). It is deep (3m) and contrary to the ones from OVNIS, profiled, as the twin rudders. The propeller has a protection.










Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

My cruising instructor had a Beneteau 37. He sails to the USVI down in the carribean. I asked him if he sails the 37. He looked at me funny and asked "why not'? So take that for what it is. Not sure if "seaworthiness" was better in older Beneteaus.

Not seen any Grand Soleils Paulo. Looks like a great club racer. Whats the level of quality of these boats? They look expensive. Are they x-yachts level or more Elans


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> My cruising instructor had a Beneteau 37. He sails to the USVI down in the carribean. I asked him if he sails the 37. He looked at me funny and asked "why not'? So take that for what it is. Not sure if "seaworthiness" was better in older Beneteaus.
> 
> Not seen any Grand Soleils Paulo. Looks like a great club racer. Whats the level of quality of these boats? They look expensive. Are they x-yachts level or more Elans


A Benetau 37 is not an old Benetau. It is still on production and as I have said on a previous post it is a Finot design boat and a great boat.

Sure he looked you funny, what kind of question is that? A Benetau 37 with the right equipment, with the right shipper would have not any problem in crossing the pond in the right season and at a moderate latitude.

There is a big post about the Benetau 37 here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats-55.html

The Grand-Soleil is another animal, I love the 43ft, if it was not so expensive I would have it on my short list.

The Grand-Soleil share many characteristics with Salona and X-yachts: They all have an interior carbon or steel grid to absorb keel and shroud efforts, share the same kind of hull (with moderate beam) are all very good upwind with a good performance downwind.

The difference is that the Salona costs about as much as the Opium while the Grand-Soleil costs near what costs X-yachts, and that is a lot more

The build quality of Grand-Soleil is good, almost as good as X-Yachts and I would say at the same level as Salona.

That Stell/Carbon Grid and price is one of the reasons I probably will buy a Salona: All performance boats are made the same way, with infusion methods, cored hulls and the best with epoxy based resins. A lighter boat will perform better but obviously, being made the same way and with the same materials will be more fragile.

Of course people want fast boats and the shipyards go on making lighter and lighter boats but the safety and durability margins are being reduced. One thing is a boat for racing, that is checked after each race looking for points that need reinforcement and that will be reinforced, other a performance cruiser that should be made to last and not to bother with.

The biggest problem, the places that will be more prone to failure, are the keel and shroud attachments. You certainly have heard about several performance boats losing their keel and losing the rig on shroud failure. The problem will be bigger with age and with stressed material. A internal big stainless steel structure will take those efforts and will redistribute them by all the hull eliminating those failure points.

The reason you don't see more boats using it is price (Luffe and Arcona also use it). I am very happy that Salona, a less expensive boat, has one ( and a stainless one) and as I have said that is one of the big reasons I am interested in a Salona, furthermore I like more the Salona interior design, compared with the one from Grand-Soleil (dark woods and a galley along all saloon).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

A GS is more in line with an X than an Elan. At least locally where I am in the states, the GS and X are priced pretty equal. 

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> A GS is more in line with an X than an Elan. At least locally where I am in the states, the GS and X are priced pretty equal.
> 
> Marty


Hi Marty!

Here too. The Grand-Soleil is near the X-Yachts and Luffe prices. As you know they have been bought by Bavaria and they are working on a new 39, a very nice design:










It is going to be interesting to see if they manage to lower the price without sacrificing quality. Not what seems to happen with the Dehler 41 made already under Hanse ownership were price is down but, judging by the photos, quality too.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Personal opinion here, but sometimes when a lower priced entity buys a higher priced one, the lower will override the higher and make the higher a lower quality at times. Others, the unit that buys, still lets the higher do its thing with less oversight. The question will be, will bavaria do the first, or what I seem to see Group Beneteau doing, which is let the different divisions do what they are known for! and keep the GS quality design etc where it is at, but help lower the cost by group buys per say! 

A local grocery chain bought another, the higher quality one per say is still doing what they always did best, the lower one per say, still does what it does best, but both run out of the same distribution plants, helping lower costs for both units. Hopefully this is what bavaria will do. If not.......bummer! Another lower to mid level boat in what I would call an already tight to potentially too many boat manufacture(s) for the price point market.

I could be wrong on some of my points too.

Marty


----------



## bjung

Paulo,
My comments were simply aimed at the poor interior design of the O41.
Handholds to me are a must, not an option, no matter what type of sailing you do. I can only see the ones by the portholes in the hull (why there?), and there is no handhold from galley to fwd berth. 
Ventilation should also be of concern to all sailors, unless you spend the night at the marina resort. Are 3 portholes and 1 hatch enough for you in the salon??
Do you actually think the nav table is in a great spot? It also looks like it makes the port settee too short to use as a sea berth.
Cooking at sea should also be a challenge with this galley, as there is no way to wedge yourself in. Forget about using the sink on a starboard tack.
I agree with you on the target customer (charter and day sailors), and the fact that these boats are designed to appeal to as many potential buyers as possible. That doesn’t preclude better interior design though, does it?
I spend about 2 months/ year on our boat (PSC 31) and log around 3500nm/year. I have gotten to appreciate certain features that I would never compromise on, and have sailed in enough gales on passage (there is no such thing as a reliable 5 day forecast!) to witness plenty of things going wrong. A lot of the passages are with wife and two kids, so safety and a solid vessel are a must. As is an interior design with functionality at sea in mind…
We have been looking to upgrade to something around 40’, but cannot afford a new HR40, XC38/42, etc. So, like most of us here, I look at new production boats and used boats. What I see in todays crop of 40 footers is a focus on interior space and performance (nothing wrong with more speed and light wind performance), rather than functionality and livability at sea. Some exceptions, Opium 39 is one of them.
Good interior design should never be compromised on no matter what the intended use or the price of the vessel is. 
Bernd


----------



## bb74

OK, I said I'd provide the write-up on the Jeanneau, S0 36 after a 2 week charter so here it is FWIW.

Rental in Corsica (Ajaccio) and btw I'd put a plug in for Corsazur Marine from whom I rented the boat - great service, top notch condition, and the best professionals I've seen in the Med so far on rentals & service. That aside, the 2 weeks were with my wife and 2 children (4 and 7) and the plan was to sail the west coast and anchor mostly during the 2 weeks.

First impression on the S036 (performance version with 2m15 keel but not he bigger sail and mast) was that the cockpit was OK but a bit cramped getting behind / around the wheel. Winch access was for double handing but you can single hand if you need to - far from ideal. Winches were a bit undersized (common on big prod boats) and unfortunately they didn't have the 4th on the roof so anyone looking to run a SPI or Gennaker would be challenged - I didn't bother being with the family only so OK overall. Going forward from the wheel, poor access to the exterior with the bimini up but that is common as well. Central table was in plastic and we ended up rigging tethers to the baseplate for the kids (F6-7 one day....) and the clutter makes it a bit difficult to imagine putting in a life line and going from one foresail winch to another. Cruising cockpit and I would have preferred more room to get around and blockers on the foresail winch pulleys outboard of the winches.

Heading down the stairs (steep but normal grip and shape) the cabin was typical Jeanneau - better quality than the Dufour and about the same as the Beneteau (maybe a bit better). Galley to the right, toilet and separate shower to the left, main cabin with table and couches and chart table to the left. Both cabins were average size for a 36 footer and OK stowage for clothes / etc. In the main cabin, the table and couches are pretty poorly thought out with a table you can comfortably sit 4 at but no more. The port side couch is too far from the table to eat so you're stuck cramming the rounded couch to the starboard to eat - not an ideal set-up for a 36 footer. Ours was the 2 cabin set-up "owners" version. I had sailed extensively on a S035 and the cabin is similar but with a bit more room.

Storage for food / water / etc was OK under the couches but pretty sketchy otherwise. The boat lacks readily access cabinet storage. The cabin couches are not made to be slept on - I had to one night and it was hellish - because too narrow and short if you stand 6' or more. Kitchen and fridge were fine.

On deck, access to the foredeck is hampered by the mast rigging that's smack in the middle of the passageway - same as the 35. Once in front the deck is pretty clean and you can move around safely with good footing and brace points.

Under power, good maneuverability and at 2.2K on the diesel about 4.2 kts. Not that much prop walk and a responsive rudder.

Under sail, I found the boat to be sluggish even if the rudder feedback was decent. The boat has a sweet spot in about 14 kts wind but once you hit 17 or 18 you need to power down the main. 25 kts and 2 ris in the main with a full 110 foresail and it was a bit overpowered. Once the boat overpowers we were losing better than 1 kt in speed on average. With the main traveler on the roof with no access from the wheel, this made it a PIA to manage alone. Under 7 kts the boat didn't have much speed but the conditions were pretty variable wind wise. The caveat here is I like performance sailing boats and this isn't one. In contrast, I found that the Bene Oceanis 37 was more responsive and forgiving before losing speed than the SO. Marc Lombard (the architect) knows how to make boats and I'm sure with a crew we could have tuned things better...

Upwind 40° was about the best while maintaining speed under 12 kts. Downwind (without a Gennaker / Spi) we needed to keep about 140° to maintain VMG - normal with the sail configuration. Note that we were loaded with diesel and 2 full tanks + food / water / etc for 2 weeks.

Seamotion is pretty good and predictable. When the rudder gave way in a broach (a few times), this happened without major heeling or "suprizes". Always predictable and in control.

I'm sure there is more to mention but overall the boat serves it's purpose as a predictable, plain vanilla, dependable sailboat for medium term trips or rentals. I was disappointed with the speed and dynamic under sail but it is better than the SO 35. There are a few questionable design flaws (in my view) but they don't kill the relevance of the boat for a 4 person or less crew / group. As I said, I found the build quality to be better than Dufour and on par with the more recent Beneteau I've sailed.

Assuming you're looking for a weekend cruiser that looks good, had predictable sailing reactions, is comfortable and reliable, it could make sense. I the same range and after having sailed it in May I would go for a Oceanis 37 because it's more in synch with what I'm looking for sailing wise. I wouldn't throw a stone at the SO36 because we had 2 weeks carefree and with some pretty tough conditions (3M swell and 30 kts sustained for 36 hours) and aside 3 of the 4 being ill, we made it fine...

There you have it FWIW.


----------



## PCP

bb74 said:


> OK, I said I'd provide the write-up on the Jeanneau, S0 36 after a 2 week charter so here it is FWIW.
> 
> Rental in Corsica (Ajaccio) and btw I'd put a plug in for Corsazur Marine from whom I rented the boat - great service, top notch condition, and the best professionals I've seen in the Med so far on rentals & service. That aside, the 2 weeks were with my wife and 2 children (4 and 7) and the plan was to sail the west coast and anchor mostly during the 2 weeks.
> 
> First impression on the S036 (performance version with 2m15 keel but not he bigger sail and mast) was that the cockpit was OK but a bit cramped getting behind / around the wheel. Winch access was for double handing but you can single hand if you need to - far from ideal. Winches were a bit undersized (common on big prod boats) and unfortunately they didn't have the 4th on the roof so anyone looking to run a SPI or Gennaker would be challenged - I didn't bother being with the family only so OK overall. Going forward from the wheel, poor access to the exterior with the bimini up but that is common as well. Central table was in plastic and we ended up rigging tethers to the baseplate for the kids (F6-7 one day....) and the clutter makes it a bit difficult to imagine putting in a life line and going from one foresail winch to another. Cruising cockpit and I would have preferred more room to get around and blockers on the foresail winch pulleys outboard of the winches.
> 
> Heading down the stairs (steep but normal grip and shape) the cabin was typical Jeanneau - better quality than the Dufour and about the same as the Beneteau (maybe a bit better). Galley to the right, toilet and separate shower to the left, main cabin with table and couches and chart table to the left. Both cabins were average size for a 36 footer and OK stowage for clothes / etc. In the main cabin, the table and couches are pretty poorly thought out with a table you can comfortably sit 4 at but no more. The port side couch is too far from the table to eat so you're stuck cramming the rounded couch to the starboard to eat - not an ideal set-up for a 36 footer. Ours was the 2 cabin set-up "owners" version. I had sailed extensively on a S035 and the cabin is similar but with a bit more room.
> 
> Storage for food / water / etc was OK under the couches but pretty sketchy otherwise. The boat lacks readily access cabinet storage. The cabin couches are not made to be slept on - I had to one night and it was hellish - because too narrow and short if you stand 6' or more. Kitchen and fridge were fine.
> 
> On deck, access to the foredeck is hampered by the mast rigging that's smack in the middle of the passageway - same as the 35. Once in front the deck is pretty clean and you can move around safely with good footing and brace points.
> 
> Under power, good maneuverability and at 2.2K on the diesel about 4.2 kts. Not that much prop walk and a responsive rudder.
> 
> Under sail, I found the boat to be sluggish even if the rudder feedback was decent. The boat has a sweet spot in about 14 kts wind but once you hit 17 or 18 you need to power down the main. 25 kts and 2 ris in the main with a full 110 foresail and it was a bit overpowered. Once the boat overpowers we were losing better than 1 kt in speed on average. With the main traveler on the roof with no access from the wheel, this made it a PIA to manage alone. Under 7 kts the boat didn't have much speed but the conditions were pretty variable wind wise. The caveat here is I like performance sailing boats and this isn't one. In contrast, I found that the Bene Oceanis 37 was more responsive and forgiving before losing speed than the SO. Marc Lombard (the architect) knows how to make boats and I'm sure with a crew we could have tuned things better...
> 
> Upwind 40° was about the best while maintaining speed under 12 kts. Downwind (without a Gennaker / Spi) we needed to keep about 140° to maintain VMG - normal with the sail configuration. Note that we were loaded with diesel and 2 full tanks + food / water / etc for 2 weeks.
> 
> Seamotion is pretty good and predictable. When the rudder gave way in a broach (a few times), this happened without major heeling or "suprizes". Always predictable and in control.
> 
> I'm sure there is more to mention but overall the boat serves it's purpose as a predictable, plain vanilla, dependable sailboat for medium term trips or rentals. I was disappointed with the speed and dynamic under sail but it is better than the SO 35. There are a few questionable design flaws (in my view) but they don't kill the relevance of the boat for a 4 person or less crew / group. As I said, I found the build quality to be better than Dufour and on par with the more recent Beneteau I've sailed.
> 
> Assuming you're looking for a weekend cruiser that looks good, had predictable sailing reactions, is comfortable and reliable, it could make sense. I the same range and after having sailed it in May I would go for a Oceanis 37 because it's more in synch with what I'm looking for sailing wise. I wouldn't throw a stone at the SO36 because we had 2 weeks carefree and with some pretty tough conditions (3M swell and 30 kts sustained for 36 hours) and aside 3 of the 4 being ill, we made it fine...
> 
> There you have it FWIW.


Thanks BB, nice post and I would say about I expected regarding the boat.

Now what I would like is that next Charter would be on an Elan 350, Salona 34 or First 35. I would like to hear the difference under your point of view regarding a true performance cruiser. If it is a Salona in Croatia maybe I even can get you a discount

I just don't understand that point about the better quality regarding the Dufour. Dufour are more expensive than Jeanneaus and Benetaus (Oceanis) and supposedly have a a slight better quality: Who is going to buy a more expensive boat with lesser quality?

I have sailed last year a new Dufour 425 and the quality seemed OK. I have compared in boat shows the quality of Dufour with Jeanneau and Benetau and don't seem to me that is lower, quite the contrary.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

The quality of interior to a person may also be the ambiance that one is looking for too! I have nto been in too many DuFours to say I know it is better or not than a Bene or jeanneau or catalina lets add to the mix. Other than to say I do not like the DuFour finish/ambiance, so my rating of them if you will is lower. Same with Catalina, yet frankly, I know SOOOO many owners that luv them, to say that they are bad boats is not me. I feel they are all probably on par, DuFour does seem to give you a better Deck/performance boat vs the other three, especially the 34/40 e series, I can see how those models would run a bit more, same with the Bene 1st series in a given size, say 35' plus or minus a foot. 

Reality is, for many of us, we would probably be quite happy if any of the above mentioned brands, a new boat showed up in our slips free of charge per say for our current boat, we would probably be very happy! Even if I will admit, some like the Oceanus, Dufours GL series etc, would not meet ALL of my what I want to do with the boat!

My thoughts on maybe why bb does not have a high thought on DuFour. 

Marty


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## axel

JAndersB said:


> Regarding pricing and Opium price I am still finding out all the time from my boat why it has a higher price. Arriwing back at home harbour I tried to close the toilet water intake. I had to follow the piping through the whole interior before I found it in the middle of the boat just behind the keel even if toilet is on the port in the front.This way it does not suck air on a beat. Full balsa hull and sandwich interior, oversized and plenty of deck gear, I still have a bag full of top of the line Harken gear that was left over, are other things that push the price up even if I agree that it is expensive.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


I have only recently discovered this great thread - which has kept me up late into the night for several days. Thanks, Paulo!

A question to Anders about his new boat (of which I am very envious): What type of keel do you have - the swing or the fixed one? And what are your thoughts and experiences in this regard. Having had to repair my own boat after hitting a rock, I see a swing keel as a great form of insurance. But how does it affect sailing performance? And, as Paulo has pointed out, what are the maintenance issues?

Grateful for your thoughts on the matter, Axel


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## PCP

blt2ski said:


> ----
> 
> The quality of interior to a person may also be the ambiance that one is looking for too! I have nto been in too many DuFours to say I know it is better or not than a Bene or jeanneau or catalina lets add to the mix. Other than to say I do not like the DuFour finish/ambiance, so my rating of them if you will is lower. Same with Catalina, yet frankly, I know SOOOO many owners that luv them, to say that they are bad boats is not me. I feel they are all probably on par, DuFour does seem to give you a better Deck/performance boat vs the other three, especially the 34/40 e series, I can see how those models would run a bit more, same with the Bene 1st series in a given size, say 35' plus or minus a foot.
> 
> ....
> 
> Marty


I understand what you mean and I personally like more the interior design of the Jeanneau 409 than the interior of the Dufour 405. Also like more the outside design of the boat, but one thing is design other thing is quality of materials, quality of building and assembly and that is only about that I am talking about when I have referred the Dufour quality versus Oceanis (Benetau) and Jeanneau.

By the way on the last edition of BlueWater magazine they have a test on the Dufour 405. They have loved the boat and its speed. A great boat even if I think that the 409 is even better.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

axel said:


> I have only recently discovered this great thread - which has kept me up late into the night for several days. Thanks, Paulo!
> 
> ... And, as Paulo has pointed out, what are the maintenance issues?
> 
> .....


Welcome to the thread

Axel it seems that you have misunderstood what I have said. I did not said that the Opium 39 had maintenance issues. I really hope he has not since I strongly recommended that boat to Anders when he was undecided between that one an another boat

What I have said is that between two boats built with the same methods and same materials if one is a lot lighter than another the chances are that the heavier one will be stronger, assuming they are both well designed and built.

What I have said is equally valid in what concerns for Example a 40ft Bavaria and a 40ft Dufour. The build techniques and materials are the same, the Dufour weights 8000kg, the Bavaria about 9000kg. I would say that the chances are that the Bavaria is stronger. If you need that extra strength is another story. Maybe not, maybe the Dufour will be strong enough and the extra ton on the Bavaria be just weight that could be saved, who knows? If that weight could be saved than the Dufour 405 is a better boat because with less a ton than the Bavaria is a faster and better sailing boat.

What I have said is that actually there are a tendency for lighter and lighter boats (there are some even more lighter than the Opium) and that one should pay attention to that because a lighter boat, if constructed the same way with the same materials than an heavier boat will be probably more fragile.

I did not wanted to say that the Opium that is built with top materials and with vacuum infusion is fragile. I think that it is a very well built boat that is fit for the intended use without maintenance problems.

Regards

Paulo


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## Chimbatete

PCP said:


> Welcome to the thread
> 
> I did not wanted to say that the Opium that is built with top materials and with vacuum infusion is fragile. I think that it is a very well built boat that is fit for the intended use without maintenance problems.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


What does this mean Paulo? If I get one its definitely to be king of Winward/leeward course and ocassional weekend cruising. Is that the intended use?

But at the same time it seems no worse than a Pogo as an offshore boat.


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## bb74

PCP said:


> Thanks BB, nice post and I would say about I expected regarding the boat.
> 
> Now what I would like is that next Charter would be on an Elan 350, Salona 34 or First 35. I would like to hear the difference under your point of view regarding a true performance cruiser. If it is a Salona in Croatia maybe I even can get you a discount
> 
> I just don't understand that point about the better quality regarding the Dufour. Dufour are more expensive than Jeanneaus and Benetaus (Oceanis) and supposedly have a a slight better quality: Who is going to buy a more expensive boat with lesser quality?
> 
> I have sailed last year a new Dufour 425 and the quality seemed OK. I have compared in boat shows the quality of Dufour with Jeanneau and Benetau and don't seem to me that is lower, quite the contrary.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Croatia is probably next so if you know renters for a Salona, please let me know!

On the comparison between performance cruiser and a SO36, there's no contest. Comparing to a J109, A35 or even the Pogo 8.50 I've sailed, we could point higher, carry more sail beyond 20 kts, manage the gusts much better, and singlehand more easily. Add to that at least 2 kts of speed at all points and better feel of rudder and more "fun sailing". I don't care about another 100liters of water of having 160 liters of diesel because we are very frugal on both without any problem whatsoever - 2 weeks with 4 people and used about 300 liters of water for cleaning / bathing (had bottled water to drink) and only 22 liters of diesel.

On the build quality, I did a week of intensive sailing on a Dufour 325 (with the Glenans) and we were F4-8 all week with an experienced crew, February, between Sete and Marseille. I found that the SO woodwork was better with the door and cabinet hingework done into solid wood where the Dufour was directly into particle board. Needless to say, after 1 week of pounding the 325 was missing 3 cabinet facings and 1 door would pop open regularly. The SO is not light years ahead and you can feel the flex in the form in the big waves we had but it was better from a woodwork point of view. Deckgear was on par for each for the size and the build felt pretty much the same. That was my point on quality and again, my sole extended experience is on the 325. I've been on Beneteaus that have framed and non-framed woordwork for hinging and doors so I'm not sure it's a company wide thing or just model by model to hit the target costs...?

On the interior style, I wasn't commenting on that per-se as everyone has their preferences. Needless to say, my wife liked the look of the inside more that I did.


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## PCP

bb74 said:


> Croatia is probably next so if you know renters for a Salona, please let me know!
> 
> On the comparison between performance cruiser and a SO36, there's no contest. Comparing to a J109, A35 or even the Pogo 8.50 I've sailed, we could point higher, carry more sail beyond 20 kts, manage the gusts much better, and singlehand more easily. Add to that at least 2 kts of speed at all points and better feel of rudder and more "fun sailing". I don't care about another 100liters of water of having 160 liters of diesel because we are very frugal on both without any problem whatsoever - 2 weeks with 4 people and used about 300 liters of water for cleaning / bathing (had bottled water to drink) and only 22 liters of diesel.


I know pretty well the guys from the shipyard and they directly run a small charter business, I have charted one of their boats and I have saw a very nice and almost new Salona 34 there. I did not noticed if he had the performance pack or not.

Salonas and Elan are different because while they are performance boats, probably not as fast as a J boat or a Pogo, they have a good cruising interior.



bb74 said:


> On the build quality, I did a week of intensive sailing on a Dufour 325 (with the Glenans) and we were F4-8 all week with an experienced crew, February, between Sete and Marseille. I found that the SO woodwork was better with the door and cabinet hingework done into solid wood where the Dufour was directly into particle board. Needless to say, after 1 week of pounding the 325 was missing 3 cabinet facings and 1 door would pop open regularly. The SO is not light years ahead and you can feel the flex in the form in the big waves we had but it was better from a woodwork point of view. Deckgear was on par for each for the size and the build felt pretty much the same. That was my point on quality and again, my sole extended experience is on the 325. I've been on Beneteaus that have framed and non-framed woordwork for hinging and doors so I'm not sure it's a company wide thing or just model by model to hit the target costs...?
> 
> On the interior style, I wasn't commenting on that per-se as everyone has their preferences. Needless to say, my wife liked the look of the inside more that I did.


If you are right than Dufour is in trouble because they are more expensive than jeanneaus. But on the other hand Glenans is a great sea school with a huge knowledge about sea and boats. If they had chose to have Dufour instead of Jeanneau in their fleet they have probably their reasons and has you have pointed out, their boats have an hard use, with lots of bad weather.

By the way, last year the Salona guys were very satisfied because Glenans had bought them a all fleet of Salona 37. That should mean something specially because Salonas are not less expensive than other similar French boats and because French like to buy French boats.

Regards

Paulo


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## daviid

PCP said:


> Thanks BB, nice post and I would say about I expected regarding the boat.
> 
> Now what I would like is that next Charter would be on an Elan 350, Salona 34 or First 35. I would like to hear the difference under your point of view regarding a true performance cruiser. If it is a Salona in Croatia maybe I even can get you a discount
> 
> I just don't understand that point about the better quality regarding the Dufour. Dufour are more expensive than Jeanneaus and Benetaus (Oceanis) and supposedly have a a slight better quality: Who is going to buy a more expensive boat with lesser quality?
> 
> I have sailed last year a new Dufour 425 and the quality seemed OK. I have compared in boat shows the quality of Dufour with Jeanneau and Benetau and don't seem to me that is lower, quite the contrary.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

We are chartering a Jeanneau 36i in Croatia in around 10 days - thanks to BB74 for the review. We are also planning to go to Marina Kastella to charter a Salona 37 or a Salona 34 depending on what is available after that. Any other suggestions in terms of where to find Salonas for charter? Any discount you are able to organise would be most welcome

All the best

David


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## axel

PCP said:


> Axel it seems that you have misunderstood what I have said. I did not said that the Opium 39 had maintenance issues. I really hope he has not since I strongly recommended that boat to Anders when he was undecided between that one an another boat


Thanks for your rapid reply, Paulo. I don't think I have misunderstood you, I just didn't express myself very clearly, I guess. My question about maintenance issues was purely related to the swing keel (vs. the fixed option). I believe you have at various times pointed out the stress when a ballasted keel swings (in contrast to the more moderate forces involved with an unballasted centreboard that swings), and that this will eventually lead to expensive maintenance issues. I was interested in hearing Anders' thoughts on the matter, and what keel solution he has chosen.

I did not mean to imply anything negative about the build quality of the Opium, or that you had said anything to that effect. I completely agree with what somebody has said on this thread - maybe it was even you, Paulo - that with Wauqiez you would expect a strong and well-built quality construction.

This brings up another question: Are the Opiums from the first series (built by Alizé I think) of lower quality? Were there any design changes when Wauqiez took over? Anybody knows anything about that? Interesting question as the possibility of a used boat is probably greater from the first line...

Axel


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## PCP

axel said:


> ....
> 
> This brings up another question: Are the Opiums from the first series (built by Alizé I think) of lower quality? Were there any design changes when Wauqiez took over? Anybody knows anything about that? Interesting question as the possibility of a used boat is probably greater from the first line...
> 
> Axel


Hi Axel,
Yes, the general opinion is that the Alizé Opium had good quality but that Wauquiez Opium has a better quality (hull and interior). The Wauquiez interior is nicer and better, the keel position (or the bulb?) was slightly modified by the boat designer (a bit aft if I remember correctly) and the new Opium has a nice integrated bowsprit.

Maybe Anders can say more about it

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

The new 33 Soto one design:










It seems to be 33ft of sailing fun

Take a look at the movie:

velero S33OD - YouTube

S 33 One Design


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## daviid

Hi Paolo

We leave Croatia from Split on Saturday 8 October early in the morning which means we need to have handed the boat back on Friday 7 October which is not ideal as the charters usually work from Saturday to Saturday. Nevertheless our start date for charter for the second week is fairly flexible.

My thinking was to approach a charterer over this period which I imagine will be very quiet for them and to try and negotiate a walk-in rate for say 7, 8, 9 or 10 days starting from Wednesday 28 Sep and ending Friday 7 October depending on what is available. I was planning to go to Rogoznica (I know that Ban Touring who charter Dufour are based there), Marina Kremik (Sunsail are based here and are already running big specials), Marina Kastella (Salona's charter business runs from here) and Split to see what was available in the 3 days before we get onto the Jeanneau 36i for the first week of charter. Our first choice is to charter a Salona 37 or a Salona 34 for the second week. If these are not available, then we will try to charter a Dufour 34e. If this is also not available, then we will try for an Oceanis 37. As you can see, these are all performance cruisers (except for the Oceanis 37) and are boats that I would consider buying second hand at some point in the future. 

Let me know if you are able to assist or if there is anything else you need to know for now.

Please PM me; I am not able to do so myself as I only have 8 posts  Apologies for the thread drift folks ...

Many thanks for your help in this.

All the best

David


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## JAndersB

PCP said:


> Hi Axel,
> Yes, the general opinion is that the Alizé Opium had good quality but that Wauquiez Opium has a better quality (hull and interior). The Wauquiez interior is nicer and better, the keel position (or the bulb?) was slightly modified by the boat designer (a bit aft if I remember correctly) and the new Opium has a nice integrated bowsprit.
> 
> Maybe Anders can say more about it
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Axel,
Regarding the swing keel fixed keel question I was also tempted by a swing keel. It does give some interesting possibilities. At the same time, while sailing you have a much bigger draft to consider, to get the same stability. The price difference is also very big and you loose some volume in the interior. So, as located here on the swedish west cost with no tides at all and rather deep waters I decided for the fixed keel with a substantial bulb.

Overall build quality seems good even is some minor hick ups has been noticed, of which most noticable is a badly constructed shower drain in the forward toilet, so not so important

I am mosly impressed though by the lot of thoughts that have gone into the design, both overall as influenced by open 40 boats, deck ergonomics and small details in the interior.

Regards,
Anders


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## PCP

Finally I got a bit of time to make that report about the Salona 41. I am interested in that boat as one of the boats that will meet my needs so this was not a regular charter, but really a long test sail.

The boat had the performance pack, regular dracon sails, good hardware and 2.70m draft. I will not want a boat with 2.7m draft but they can make it with several drafts beginning in 1.70m. I will want probably one with 2.25m draft. I was a little worried with the 2.70m draft but I would say that I found out that in Croatia that is not a problem at all. The anchorages are deep and very close to the shore you have more than 3.5m and as there are no tides I ended up as being normally one of the boats nearer to the shore, anchoring in about 5/7m of water and with 4m of water at the end of the 35m of chain.










Let's start from the beginning:

When we motored out of the marina Kastela we were slightly back of the big pack of charter boats that were leaving the Marina and all boats were pointed to the same spot, 4 or 5 miles away, between the Island and the continent and the only way out of the big bay were Kastela Marina is situated.

20 minutes later my daughter said to me: Daddy, it doesn't look well.

What are you talking about? Said I, surprised.

Daddy, you are overtaking all the boats, it seems that you want to get first to the anchoring spots, that's not a race.

Humm, I looked at the engine rpm: 2000, on a 40hp Yanmar. That is economical cruising rpm. I looked at the GPS: 7K. How!!!!

I put all the engine down: 8.3K. Tried normal cruising speed at 2.300rpm: 7.7K and a wake like a fishing boat.

My wife said: I like this one.

As everybody knows and she certainly knows when you do coastal cruising and cruise to faraway places and like to travel, even with a sailingboat that needs very little wind, unless you have some kind of trade winds you end up to use your engine a lot. I would say that 50% sailing would be an extremely good performance and 1/3 motoring an exceptional one so a good speed under engine at low rpm with a modest consumption is a must to any long range cruiser as well as the extra power to meet some emergency situation in bad weather.

This boat meets brilliantly both needs.

Those speeds were measured in flat water but even with normal conditions and some small waves and pulling a dinghy the boat made consistently speeds over 7K at cruising speed and over 6.6K at low rpm (2000).










Regarding sailing, even with Dracon sails, the Salona 41 performed as I expected and that is not as common as it seems. Last year the Dufour 425 grand large left me disappointed even if the boat had very good test sails on boat magazines. I am sure it is a great boat, but not what I wanted.

As I said the boat has the standard dracon sails that were not bad (for dracon sails) and a 130% genoa.

Most of the days we had no wind at all in the early morning and just a weak thermic breeze that raised at late morning. With those conditions between 60/90º of the wind and with very weak winds the boat went about 1K faster than wind speed . With 3.5K true wind we were making 4.5K and with 4.5 about 5.2K. With 6K wind the boat made about 6K speed, with 8K true wind a bit over 7 and with 10K true wind about 8K speed. The boat sailed almost without disturbing the water and only the GPS gave a truthful idea about the boat speed. The boat also accelerated sharply to the smallest of puffs of wind.

My daughter said to me:

Dady I like this one.










Take a good look, the boat is making a bit over 7k and the wake of the dinghy is bigger than the sailboat wake that is truly minimal.

I had no chance to sail the boat in medium/strong winds but I assume that this is a boat will take the first reef with medium winds. I reefed the boat anyway to see how it worked and worked just fine with a very strong boomjack keeping the boom up making unnecessary the use of the line that pulls the boom up (the first time I reefed decently a sail without using the boom cable to lift the boom). The reefed sail maintained a good shape.

The wheel feeling is very good for a twin wheel system. Not as good as the big single carbon wheel of the Elan 380 but miles away from the lack of feeling I found on the twin wheels of the Dufour 425. Maybe the Opium 39 has a slightly better feeling but that is very close.

The running rigging has German sheeting and has good material everywhere. It works well even if I find that it has a bit more friction than on the Opium 39 but that is amply compensated by two more winches, one for the Genoa and the other for the Boom (the Opium uses the same winch for the Genoa and the Boom). The car worked very well with very little force needed.

The boom winch and the genoa winch could be nearer the wheel and that would make them easier to use by the one that is at the wheel, I mean, solo sailing.The genoa cars are very long and very easily handed from the cockpit. They will permit the use of many different sized front sails.

The sailing position(s) for the wheelsman are good and there are several of them even if a removable raised platform for the inside foot, like the one that they have on the new 38 would come very handy when the boat is heavily heeled. I bet they will also mount them on this boat. The back bench that can be tilted and lowered, serving as "passarela" has the width necessary to seat or even to lay down (as I like) while the boat sails away.

I didn't like the position of the instruments (plotter inside and wind and speed faraway over the entry) but that is easily modified. Pods will look bad on this boat but the wind and speed/depth can be mounted laterally near the wheels and the plotter can be mounted outside aft the last winch in a place where it can be viewed and used by the skipper while at the wheel.

The cockpit is very clean with lots of space. The twin wheels really clean up the space and with the table stored the sensation of space is great. However the boat is not large enough to give one the impression to be on the 2th floor when the boat is deeply heeled (as I experienced on the Opium 39) and without any place to grab if things turn badly. Of course this is just a personal feeling and probably unjustified but the truth is that I did not felt comfortable high in the air with the Opium deeply heeled. Maybe we can get used to it.

I thought that the boat had few places to get a grip but between the two wheels, the double backstay (synthetic cable sweet to the hands), the boom line, the winches and the long grab rail to the front of the boat, I would only add a lateral hand grab on each side of the spraywood.

The boat had a huge bimini that you cannot use while sailing. Certainly a thing for the charter business. You can change that for a smaller bimini that will protect the wheel man and a well made tent (for use while at anchor) that will be connected in two pieces on each side of the boom through a dedicated rail. I did not see it but by the description it seems interesting.

We all liked the boat interior and the illumination scheme, that gives a very nice ambiance and has dedicated led lights on the Cabins and chart table for low consumption reading and that will permit to read for a long time at night(the boat can have all led lights) My wife loved that, she is an unstoppable reader  .

The interior was teak and the storage space very good, with several spaces dedicated to wine bottles. This boat had not the saloon port hulls (that I saw already on the 38) but the new ones will have them.

The chart table is big, has lateral drawers, a good storage under the cover and a comfortable sit.

The galley is big with two fridges (one of them has a small freezer) and lots of storage spaces but with no dedicated space for a garbage bin. It will have one if the optional vertical fridge is not mounted. I have asked my wife what she would prefer: The fridge she said: The garbage we put in a plastic bag suspended from the nearby cabin handle when cooking .After that anyway we never leave garbage inside the boat (we always have it outside suspended on the anchor locker)and the fridge is so nice&#8230;.Women&#8230;.but on the other way I never drank so cold beer in a boat &#8230;Men

The head on the two cabin version is kind of small but very well designed with two separated cabinets, lots of storage space, and the bowl is the big one (not the small one that I really hate) and put in a position that will give you all the leg space you need (I am big) and unlike many boats I have saw, even heeled by any side you will be comfortable and leaning on the sides&#8230;a true sofa.

The front cabin is big for a performance boat with lots of space and the lateral cabins are all right with good ventilation. The boat ventilation is good with two lateral big open port lights (one over the stove). This provides good lateral ventilation and would not be to mention if some performance boats would not have them or had just some tiny openings.

A very good interior for a performance boat with nothing fancy but cozy , light, spacious and with lots of storage spaces. For really living aboard the two cabin boat would be far more indicated.










Normally on 42ft boat I would not consider a 3 cabin boat. They simply don't have the outside storage space a cruising sailboat needs, I mean for really cruising. Not so with this one. The boat has five outside lockers (not counting the one for the two bottles of gas), two on the floor, two on the side of the cockpit and the anchor locker. The two side ones are normal and for normal I mean that one of those is not just a very small space (to make the interior of the cabin bigger) as in some boats. There will more than enough space for all the stuff providing the liferaft and the fenders can be stowed in another place&#8230;and they can.

One of the floor lockers is a dedicated liferaft carrier and the other it is just huge: It can carry the big six fat fenders of our boat and with lots of space to spare. That is also the compartment were you can access the rudder and the place the ruder comes out of the boat. All that compartment as well as the anchor locker is separated by the rest of the boat by strong integral waterproof bulkheads. On this one you can have a big and improbable accident with the rudder post with open water (like the one that sink a Hanse some years back) and all you will have is a boat without a rudder with a partially flooded compartment.










The boat transom: you can see the two covers of the two floor lockers as well as one side locker. Also the back bench that can lower itself and rotate to be transformed in a "passarela" (a bridge to the marina when the boat is moored Mediterranean style).

The anchor locker is big and the 50m of chain occupy just a small part of the available space. Impeccable to carry garbage bags on longer passages. The space is so big that this is the first time that we could just take away the 50m chain without having to pull it sideways (inside the locker) not to block the Winch that is powerful and has a hand command. However I failed to understand how the clutch worked. Well it worked but once open I could not close it at least while the chain was running (that does not make sense, probably I have missed something). The Anchor is so incredibly bad ( a Bruce copy) that about it I would only say that they change it for any anchor you want (you just have to pay the difference).

The boat had a removable outside table that is a good idea badly executed with the wrong materials (it is heavy and doesn't fit well in its mounts). It has also a removable stair that fits well in its mountings giving a rigid and good way up from the water. Of course I would have to rig a permanent emergency line that I could be pulled from the water and that would permit me to climb inside because it would just be a matter of time before I forget to mount the stairs before jumping in the water.

The access to the dinghy is very good and it is easy to put and take out the outboard engine on the dinghy.

I am not the only one that find this boat beautiful. The boat was photographed numerous times while we were sailing it and I am not counting the ones taken by tourist boats, only the ones taken by other charter boats.

The boat looks very good even on bad photos with towels hanging down from the lifelines:










After having discussed it with them I am pretty sure they will modify everything I don't like to my specifications including an heavier keel bulb to make the boat more stiff and more able to carry sail with medium and strong winds, permitting to reef less times and with more wind.

So it will be that one? Well, all the family liked the boat and certainly in what regards sailing , motoring and living aboard fits the bill. The price is a bit over the budget for us even if the boat is a lot of boat for the money especially considering that Stainless steel grid to take care of the keel and shrouds efforts, a grid that only much more expensive boats have and that is one of the things I really love on this boat.

So why any doubts? Well I have made a test sail on the new 38 and I loved that one also and I am not sure I need a boat this big, I mean the 41.

The 38 will pay less on the marina will be more easily handed solo and will cost less 27 000 €. The 38 will sail as easily as this one in weak winds, it would be a bit less fast with medium and strong winds and a lot less fast on engine.

The interior is nice and adequate but not comparable with the sense of space on the 41 and off course, the storage space will be smaller and with the 38 I would have to have the two cabin boat.

Time to think and to ponder the advantages and disadvantages.

Maybe a week of charter on the 38?


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## myocean

Hi Guys,
I am back from vacation in southern France... In between we have visited Outremer and even the Cannes Boat. With this we got a clear picture about the absolutely convincing advantages of having a catamaran for a circumnavigation with kids. 
OK Paulo, for the Mediterranean in Summer it might be expensive and sometime difficult to get a place in the ports - however on the long voyage the space and quality of life on board is beyond comparison. At the same time there ARE ships which are so light that the true catamaran performance is available.
We will leave in 2013 and it is clear now what we will do till than. 
We have even had a look to RM yachts and saw the RM1060. Compared with all the Salonas, Dufours and so on it gave a very different impression: Lots of light inside, many smart ideas and made for long voyages. A great interior and interesting advantages due to the plywood hull. (e.g. dramatically reduced chemical outgassing - so good for the kids health) Very likable.
U.


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## PCP

Hi Ulf,

Glad to know that you have decide to leave for a circumnavigation

Regarding the RM 1060 I guess that tastes can be different. Me and my wife like the interior of the RM 1200 but dislike the one from the 1060. The quality of the interior is also low if compared with a Dufour or Salona. But you are right, the boat is set up already for long range voyaging while you would have to prepare a Salona or a Dufour for that propose. Besides I find the boat very expensive for what he offers.

Regarding Cats we can see them more and more on the Charter business but most of them are fat and slow and don't go upwind with waves and strong winds. It is hard to find on the European Market models adapted to Ocean sailing and furthermore in my opinion they represent a bigger risk than monohulls in what regards a circumnavigation with all this weather instability.

Have you heard what happened to Francis Joyion in its attempt for a record circumnavigation?

At the time I was sailing under triple reefed mainsail and with the small ORC [storm jib]. The violence of the squall was such that the sensor, and the anti-capsize alarm did not have time to go off. The wind continued to build very violently and I felt the boat literally catapulted into the air.

IDEC capsizes | The Daily Sail

His cat was huge with an incredible stability and he was on a 3th reef and storm jib when he was blown out of the water. Myself have already been in a freak wind situation where any cruising cat would probably have capsized.

But you are right, even if they were not the kind of boat I would chose to circumnavigate, they offer a space that cannot be mathced by any monohull.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

Paulo,
Thanks for the report on the Salona 41. The sailing/motoring performance you reported is definetly noteworthy. Someone in this thread had mentioned the lack of quality interior at a boatshow. How did you feel about it(solid or particleboard?)?
How is the access to the engine, etc.?
You mentioned feeling like on the 2nd floor in the Opium. Was this due to more heeling, or freeboard?
BTW, what is the price of the Salona 41 fully equipped?
Thanks,
Bernd


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Paulo,
> Thanks for the report on the Salona 41. The sailing/motoring performance you reported is definetly noteworthy. Someone in this thread had mentioned the lack of quality interior at a boatshow. How did you feel about it(solid or particleboard?)?


Hi Bernd,

Nobody is using solid wood on fast sailboats not even the ones that are very expensive. The reason is weight. For solid wood to have the same resistance as prime wood laminate (not really know if this is the right word) it would have to be much thinker and much heavier. Not even on prime very expensive relativelly fast cruising boats like the cruising line of X yachts they use it. Weight is a no no in any sailing boat.

It was Andrews that had said that was not impressed with the Salona quality, but now that he has a Malo he is a bit snob. Of course if we compare it with a Malo or a Najad it is not an even match, those boats cost 3 times more but if you compare it with a Dufour or a Jeanneau it will be better, not in the overall appearance but on the built quality and I would say on the solidity and quality of the accessories and most of all on the hull strength. Of course a Malo or a Najad because they have such a luxurious interior will pay that on overall sailing performance.



bjung said:


> How is the access to the engine, etc.?
> You mentioned feeling like on the 2nd floor in the Opium. Was this due to more heeling, or freeboard?
> BTW, what is the price of the Salona 41 fully equipped?
> Thanks,
> Bernd


Most production boats have a very good acess to the engine and this one is no exception. A big front opening that includes the stairs and that goes up with hydraulics and stay there and two smaller side ones.

By the way I forgot to mention that the stairs are excellent and going up and down even with the hands occupied is easy and that is a very important feature that is many times overlooked. We had sailed before on an Hanse and the way up and down was.....dangerous!

No, the Opium or other similar performance boat like the Pogo have small freeboards compared with regular cruising boats and probably similar to the one from Salona and on most sailing positions will heel less than a Salona because they have more form stability (more beam).

I am only talking about going close upwind. On that position if you go at the max speed the boat can make the heeling will be similar (25/30º) and than you would be a lot more up on those kind of boats not only because the overall beam is much bigger but also because those boats have max beam were you seat, near the transom while on boats like the Salona max beam is on the middle of the boat and where the wheels-man seat the beam is already noticeable smaller.

The overall difference is quite big: the Pogo 12.50 has the same lenght of the Salona 41 the Pogo beam is 4.5m, the Salona beam is 3.84 but the difference of beam at the transom is much bigger, as I have explained.

You will feel clearly the difference. I don't like the feeling but as I have said this is a personal thing and maybe you just get used to it with time. After all old boats had tiny cockpits and many continue to think that the seaworthiness of a boat is connected with a tiny cockpit, even on 42fts and I certainly don't think that way.

Hum! the price of the Salona full equipped is a difficult question because the boat can assume many configurations, including racing ones.

I can tell you that the price of the basic boat is about 159 000 € and that for 174 000€ you will have a sailaway boat including sails and electronics (including plotter and GPS). Than you have a comfort package that includes heating and a more expensive performance package that really includes some expensive stuff, like lead keel, Epoxy vacuum hull, carbon spinnaker pole, performance mast with rod shrouds and hydraulic backstay adjuster. with the three packs and with the discount that is connected if you buy the boat with time the boat will cost 202 800€.

Than you will have a big list of options to customize the boat, even to the specs of a racing boat and one of the less expensive/performance you can find .

Many would not be interested in the performance package that is expensive (20 000 €) and will spend the money elsewhere. They even are disposed to hear you if the things you want are not on that list and will make all the efforts to give you what you want. That is not usual on production boats and I guess they will have to finish with that when they start to sell more boats because that is great but not practical and expensive for them.

By the way two expensive pieces of equipment that will contribute to making it a race winner are just two things that will make the boat uglier...but lighter and stronger: The nice wood panels (bulkheads) will go out to be substituted by black basalt ( an organic composite similar to carbon) and the interior material ( laminated wood) will be substituted by a much lighter and stronger material. The boat will look more naked (less cabinets) but even so it will be more expensive.

That with a racing keel (that is specially designed taking into count ratings and lower CG) is basically what differentiates the performance version from the racing one that they call IBC specked.

The 37 IBC looks like this:










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

I have already posted about the x-38p a boat that seems to be very interesting at least for me. We have seen the drawings and the technical specifications and now that the first one is on the water they released the first photos:
































































The boat seems close to the new Salona 38 that is going to be one of its closest competitors on the regatta circuit. This boat has similar dimensions (weight , beam and length) and marginally a bit more ballast. In what concerns hull shape the X 38 has the beam carried a bit more aft.

the running rigging and winch position seems very similar. The X has a great bowsprit for geenaker that includes the anchor rolling and stand that misses on the Salona 38.

The X-38 is absolutely beautiful on the outside looks but surprisingly the interior does not look so good. The Salona 38 interior looks better and one of the things that is far better on the Salona is the position of the port hull that is situated on the middle of the saloon. The one from the X is on the chart table. It seems to me that the saloon deserves a better outside view than the chart table or the galley

http://www.x-yachts.com/seeems/110669.asp

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

I have said back on this thread that it seemed to me a mistake for Salona to have maintained basically the Salona 37 hull on the new 38.

The Salona 38 hull is basically the hull of the 37 with some minor modifications including the keel. All the interior cockpit and rigging are new. It seemed to me that the new trend with beam brought back had come to stay and had some advantages, commercially and on the water.

Well maybe I was wrong on both counts: the "old" 37 has won in August the European ORCI championship racing against boats like the Finnflyer 36, X-37, T-34 and GS 37 among others.

Take a look at the real times (not compensated) on the two offshore longer races and you will see that in one the Salona 37 was only narrowed beaten by a Bavaria 42 Match and beat all other boats including the very light and hugely expensive Finnflyer 36 and in the other beat everybody.

http://kns.no/filestore/Dokumenter_doc_pdf_etc/Regatta/ORCi_EM_/FinalresultsORCiEuropeans.pdf

Commercially, only a week after they have presented information about the boat on internet they had already sold 8 (one to sydney) and I guess that now that the boat is on the water they have sold some more and this is before the boat hit the European Saloons this fall

I would say that after having tested the boat I was very impressed, more than I was impressed looking at the drawings and published pictures. The boat is much nicer than the 37 and the two well setup give a huge cockpit for a 38ft while permitting a big floor locker on the stern.

Boating News Sydney - Boating News, Reviews and Articles

The boat was tested by American's cup Skipper Dean Barker that said nice things about the boat.

Here is one movie of that test. Look how the boat goes fast with very little wind (the characteristic that had impressed me more on the test sail).

Salona 38 premiere.flv - YouTube

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Paulo is quite correct about comparative performance of things like Malo v more spirited alternatives. Although we are pretty happy with our boats performance and handling there is no way we are in the same ball park as things like the new Salona , Hanse , Beneteau etc.

Its horses for courses. 

I'm not one to knock more modern designs in general, though I did find that finishing detail, even on the Salona 41 we saw in Sydney disappointed me,


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo is quite correct about comparative performance of things like Malo v more spirited alternatives. Although we are pretty happy with our boats performance and handling there is no way we are in the same ball park as things like the new Salona , Hanse , Beneteau etc.
> 
> Its horses for courses.
> 
> I'm not one to knock more modern designs in general, though I did find that finishing detail, even on the Salona 41 we saw in Sydney disappointed me,


Hei Andrews!

About performances you mix on the same bag Salona, Hanse and Benetau. They belong to different bags

Even if the new Benetau 41 would be faster than the Malo 40 the difference will be comparatively smaller than the difference between the Benetau and the Salona 41.

The Malo weights about more 1200kg than the Oceanis (Benetau) and has about more 3m2 of sail area. That extra sail would not be sufficient to compensate in light wind the extra weight even considering that the more fuller Benetau hull design will draw more water but I am quite sure that in medium winds the Malo will point better to the wind and will sail as fast as the Benetau (except downwind). With really strong winds the Benetau downwind performance will remain better but the Malo will be much better upwind and an overall much better sailing boat.

Comparing the Benetau 41 with the Salona 41, the Benetau will have about the same difference in weight the Benetau has to the Malo (1200kg more) but instead of having less sail the Salona has more sail and not a little bit, but almost more 30m2. The Salona is also slimmer (even more than the Malo) and draws less water than the Benetau.

The Salona will be a much better sailing boat than the Oceanis and compared with the Malo really incomparably more faster, but also more nervous and needing a lot more reefing. A bit like a sports car compared with an American good sedan with an automatic gearbox

Regarding those bags, please put the Salona with Xp-yacht, Dehler, First, Grand-Soleil and the Benetau on the Bag that contains Jeanneau, Hanse, Bavaria, Hunter and so on

You can get another bag for Malo, Najad, Halberg-Rassy, Sweeden Yacht, Morris and so on

By the way, Malo is preparing the presentation of a new 40 that I think would be a slightly improved boat but much on the same lines the previous boat and I would say that I like those lines that are classic but not old. I would say that the boat makes a lot of sense for what he is designed for. The only thing I would like them to change is the interior and the kind of materials that they use (solid wood) that makes the boat unnecessarily heavy but I guess that the tipical Malo owner would not like that change After all the ones that want a cruising boat with the same sailing program and quality but with a maximized performance have already X yacht line of cruising boats.

Andrews, about finishing detail on the Salona 41, you will always be disappointed with the finish detail of a 200 000€ boat if you compare it with a finish detail of a 400 000€ boat. Anyway I was not talking about finish detail but about the quality of the interior and that is not quite the same thing. The finish can be similar but the materials can be better and that was what I was talking about.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

I had posted already about the Hanse 385. At the time only the drawings were available and I said that it looked like a great boat. Well, it seems that what looked really good were the drawings. I don't remember of having being so mislead by the drawings compared with the real thingt

Take a look:























































The interior of this one one makes the Dehler look good. It is difficult to be more IKEA. Even a Bavaria looks better

On the outside the boats looks like an Hanse 40 that already look "old", it has no traveller and the cockpit look really small (or is that guy that is at the wheel that is huge)

So sorry folks, I had said that this one looked good on the drawings and I said that it was interesting. After looking at the photos I really have changed opinion.


----------



## PCP

38ft seems to be a size that is interesting more and more builders and that means that there is a growing market for it. For some years only a lonely Bavaria 38 was an option for the ones that thought that 40 was too big and 36ft too small. Then some years back appeared the Elan 38 and last year and this year 6 new 38ft boats appeared on the market: The Dufour 375, the XC 38, the Xp 38, the Hanse 385, the Jeanneau 379 and the Salona 38.

38ft boat represent an interesting option for the ones that sail Solo most of the time or have a wife that is not really a great help. The boats chosen for the Transquadra (and its results) show that even good solo sailors can have a better performance with a smaller boat (less than 40ft), a boat they can really fully control and exploit, than with bigger boats. The typical chosen size is a 35ft, but off course they use spinnakers downwind while the typical fast cruiser will use a geenaker, that is a lot easier to use.

2ft and about a ton less will also make maneuvering in the marina a lot easier than with a 40ft, specially in what concerns taking alone the boat out of a tight place.

One of those new 38ft that we had already posted about was the Jeanneau 379, but we only had looked at the drawings. Now that is on the water, let's look at the photos:


















































































Well, I have said that on the drawings the Hanse 385 looked better but I have to say that on the photos that is not so. The Jeanneau looks a lot better, specially on the interior.

On the outside looks, even if the boat does not look so god as the 409 (proportionally more free-board) still looks better than the Hanse and it has the added advantage of having a small traveler while the Hanse has none.

Both boats have something I don't like, a small cockpit with the space affected to the boat maneuver ridiculous small, and that includes a very limited space for the wheel man and only on winch on each side of the boat.

Compare it with the cockpit of the Xp 38 or with the one from the Salona 38. I have pleasure sailing the boat and I want to do it with ease without feeling cramped on a small space


----------



## PCP

One more 38ft boat on the way. It is a performance one and a normally very good and expensive one, it is the new Finngulf, a Finnish boat.

The boat has a hull that appears to be very similar to the Salona 38, has two wheels and the superstructure is very classic with traditional openings instead of the more luminous approach of its competitors (bigger lateral plexiglass surfaces).

The boat features a bowsprit for geneeker not very different from the ones we can see on Xp yacht and on the drawings of the new GS 39.It seems that this kind of bowsprit is starting to be the norm on performance boats.

Contrary to all other new performance cruisers this one seems not to have any port hull.


----------



## PCP

The tests by European Journalists for the European boat of the year continue, nothing special if they were not continuing under force 10.

Well they say force 10 and the wind was blowing at 49K but the sea had not big waves. Anyway about 50K of wind is not for beginners and on brand new boats, not knowing the boats we can say they take it seriously

EYOTY 2011/2012: Sturmfahrt der Nominierten - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE


----------



## PCP

I had complained about the cramped space for the wheel-man on the Jeanneau 379 and Hanse 385 as opposed to the space on the more oriented performance boats, or should I say simply, better sailboats.

It seems that is a tendency now. The new Benetau 45 has the cockpit space big enough to have a decent post to the one that is sailing the boat, but the space they have for it seems not much better than the one on the smaller boats:










Well, I guess that what sells this kind of boats is the cockpit space for guests. Probably the tiny place at the wheel will only be used to tack the boat and to put it on autopilot.

I will not post here more about the 45. The hull seems to be the same kind of hull the 41 has but the interior seems even worse. I can understand the interest of this kind of hull for the kind of sailors that will buy this kind of boats, but the interior?

This is the "old 46":










This is the new 45:










I cannot imagine why, in what concerns the interior, someone will prefer the new one over the old one.

The new one is cheaper? If they maintain the same level in prices everybody is going to buy Jeanneaus instead of Benetaus

Or maybe I am wrong. Does anybody like this new interior more than the old one, or will prefer it over this one, the one from the slighter smaller Jeanneau 439?:










I guess on Benetau they are really betting on the Sense line, that has nicer interiors, but unless they lower the prices on the Oceanis (Benetau) I will doubt they can face the competition in the lower price segment.


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## PCP

More drawings of the new Bavaria Vision 46.

The first sketch was more radical (and nice) but at least this one seems to have some innovation and some differences regarding other mass production cruisers.

The cockpit is asymmetrical and can be transformed in a solarium, with a big bed and contrary to all others has two winches on each side, but only one over the cabin. That means probably German sheeting like the Jeanneau 439 but without the need to take the Genoa lines of the winch to put the boom lines in. We cannot see if the boat has a traveler or not.

The boat seems more massif than on the first drawing and seems to have a big free-board, but at least this one seems to have a decent space for the wheels man.




























I will not trust more drawings, let's wait for the photos to have an opinion The boat should be presented at the Dusseldorf boat show, in January.


----------



## JAndersB

Hi everybody,
I promised some video of the Opium. Here is a first video shot by sailmaker Lundh Sails last weekend outside Marstrand. Pretty light winds, 15-16 knots.

Opium 39 - YouTube!

regards,
Anders


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## PCP

Nice boat, nice sailing

What was the max speed you got while on the movie? The boat appears to go faster with little wind with that huge gennaker

You have a cutter configuration. They offer that as an option on Opium or they have made it for you? Do you use lower removable backs stays when you fly the smaller sail?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
actually the gennaker is not that big, it is in my opinion too small. It is a furling gennaker at appr. 110 sqm while a normal gennaker is quoted by Wauquiez at 120-130 sqm. I am contemplating buying a bigger one. In the more speedy video sequences we are doing appr. 9 knots at 95-100 degres AWA and 15-16 knots TWS but as soon as I back of from that AWA I am loosing pressure.

I ordered the cutter config but never rigged the removable forestay. I made the cutter sail as a furling gennaker but that did not work despite the removable back stays so I recently installed a Furlex 200S on a fixed forestay. Working very well, normal genua can be tacked without any problems and I set the removable back stays when I use the cutter sail.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

Nice

Give me some more information about sail areas and their wind targets :

Going at 45º of true wind you will use the genoa till what wind? You roll partially the genoa or do you pass directly to the smaller front sail? 

What is the genoa percentage?

you can use the smaller front sail without rolling it with a lot of wind, I guess. How much wind is that , I mean before you have to roll at 45º?

For balance when you use the smaller sail you have the main reefed on the first or second reef (45º)?

I guess that the boat as all boats with very good performance in light wind will reef with not too much wind. You take the first reef on the main (45º) with how much wind?

Do you have a non automatic third reef on the mainsail?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
I have only had the cutter sail for a couple of weeks so experience limited so far. The genoa is also on the small side, I am in talk with the sailmaker about this right now since I have to have it at the front end of the genoa track while going up wind. I guess 4-5 sqm is missing for a 150% so I guess it is somewhere around 120-130%. 

So far I have concluded that first reef goes in to main at 17-18 knots (at 45 degrees AWA). When next action is needed I switch to the cutter sail, at perhaps 22-24 knots. I have also tried using cutter sail with non reefed main but balance is suffering to some extent. I guess it would work better off the wind. We have gone upwind with cutter sail and one reef in up to 26-28 knots of wind. Slightly overpowered at times but boat can take it due to the twin rudders so basically no problem at all except water coming in into the interior through shower drain when side deck under water And you had to make qiuck tacks not to stall the water flow over the keel.

I have a third reef with the outhaul line already through the boom but not connected. Downhaul on hooks. Have not used it so far. We have sailed at 140-150 AWA in 35 knots and had full set of sails and only took in one reef in main in the end when the ground forced us to 120-130 AWA. At that point I did not have the furling cutter sail in place.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

While we are at it, here is some more sailing with the Opium 39, from launching in Kiel to Torekov in the southwest of Sweden.

Wauquiez Opium 39 sailing part 1.mp4 - YouTube

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

Hi Anders,

I cannot open the last video

While we wait, take a look at this one about the Rolex series. Be patient, the better part is not the beginning 

t2p.tv's Rolex Big Boat Series 2011 Music Video - YouTube

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

Nice pics, looked rather expensive though. But if you want that kind of speed you really need a max gennaker and to fly it at high wind speeds..

Video link works fine for me and my friends that I checked with. Perhaps you need a faster computer for Opium boat speed

Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Nice pics, looked rather expensive though. But if you want that kind of speed you really need a max gennaker and to fly it at high wind speeds..
> 
> Video link works fine for me and my friends that I checked with. Perhaps you need a faster computer for Opium boat speed
> 
> Anders


Yes, I agree, I was not comparing.

I have just post the video because It has great images and great boats.

I would say that you not only you would have need a bigger geenaker (or spinnaker) but also a racing crew or be a really top racing solo sailor and even so you would be taking risks. On those images they are not controlling the boat all the time. Sometimes the boat is controlling them

Take a look at these guys:

t2p.tv at 2011 Rolex Big Boat Series SERIOUS WIPE OUT - YouTube

Or these on what seems to be an A40:

2011 ROLEX BIG BOAT SERIES-- IRC BOAT GYBE AND BROACH - YouTube

By the way, great boat stability. Look how the boat recovers even with a lot of wind and that big sail pulling it down.

Maybe you are right, I am at the beach house and I have a slow internet connection but I can see the first video and I can't see the last.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## CKDexterHaven

Second boat is an A35. In the IRC C division, a J/125 took advantage of the strong wind conditions to sweep all seven races. They're calling for a new production run of that model on the SA J boat forum thanks to that.


----------



## PCP

CKDexterHaven said:


> Second boat is an A35. In the IRC C division, a J/125 took advantage of the strong wind conditions to sweep all seven races. They're calling for a new production run of that model on the SA J boat forum thanks to that.


Thanks and welcome, I had doubts between a A35 and a A40.

I don't know very well the J125 but it looks much more a racing boat and less a cruiser-racer if compared with the J 122 the A35 or the A40 that have a much better cruising interior.

That seems more like a bigger and "older" J111. I guess that if they are going to make a better racer they will do another boat on the lines of the 111 and not a new production run.

But those results are interesting. Can you post a link to them?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Without going back a few pages. The Salona 38 is your current choice of boat for you is it not? well any way, Bob Perry does a review of that boat in the Oct issue of Sailing. sailingmagazine.net I doubt it will be online until oct 1 or a bit after. I got in via subscription the other day.

Marty


----------



## CKDexterHaven

PCP said:


> Thanks and welcome, I had doubts between a A35 and a A40.
> 
> But those results are interesting. Can you post a link to them?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Full results from the 2011 Big Boat Series:
Yacht Scoring - A complete web based regatta administration and yacht scoring program

You'll see that the conditions really favored the J/125; they took the top four spots in their division. I think Double Trouble had the best crew, which is one thing that comes out of this interview with the owner/skipper:

J/News Articles: J/125 Double Trouble- Andy Costello Interview

They beat a brand new Farr 400. The Farr proponents will point to its newness and lack of familiarity on the part of her crew as reasons for less than optimal results. Interesting that a design over a decade old can still work well, given the right conditions. From the above interview it sounds like the Farr was faster upwind but incapable of matching the J's downwind speeds.

One look at the interior of the J/125 and you know it's no cruiser. As J Boats own marketing copy put it: "The J/125 makes little pretense of being a cruising boat, more of a fast daysailer with overnight capability."

The 111 is more of a cruiser, although its interior has a lot of the clorox bottle itself.


----------



## PCP

The new AC45 are interesting boats with lots of new technologies and can race with more wind than the old monohull cup boats but I am not sure if the boats should not be modified to give them more stability.

The races are beginning to look like a circus. This video is not a collection of all capsizes with AC45, just the ones on the last race in Plymouth:

The Plymouth Capsize Club 2 - Another smashing Sunday! - YouTube

What do you think?


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Without going back a few pages. The Salona 38 is your current choice of boat for you is it not? well any way, Bob Perry does a review of that boat in the Oct issue of Sailing. sailingmagazine.net I doubt it will be online until oct 1 or a bit after. I got in via subscription the other day.
> 
> Marty


Well Marty what about that review? It cannot be that long because he made the review of the Salona 37 (that has practically the same hull) and besides describing the boat he had said not much:

*"The trick with any new production model is to design it so that it appeals to the widest segment of the market. Ideally, this means the line between racer and cruiser becomes blurred and the accommodation plan includes enough options so that the boat's interior will be suitable and adaptable to the biggest number of potential buyers. In short, the designer has to eliminate the "if onlys" at the design stage. This new Salona 37 was designed by J&J Design to meet such criteria.

The heart of this design is that there are four layouts available....In any of the configurations, it's a lot of interior for a 37-foot boat.

....With its variety of interior options, all-around good looks and clearly well-thought-out deck arrangement I think this boat would make a versatile cruiser."*

Salona 37





































Besides a description of the boat this is what Perry says about the boat design and it would be difficult to say more without even looking at the boat, not to mention sailing it. However he doesn't refer, in what regards construction, the stainless steel grid to distribute the keel and shrouds forces by all the hull and also the boat being built with a vacuum injection system with epoxy derived resins, both important items in what regards solidity and weight.

When I said that probably I would not agree with him in what regards concepts, taking into account he is a great NA but a bit conservative for my tastes, I was referring to things as beam.

He says that this boat is beamy, with a L/B of 3.13. He is not saying that it is good or bad, just stating it.

What we consider beamy is a relative concept. For example if we take as standard the beam of a sailboat built in the 30's, all boats from the 60's are beamy. If we take as standard the beam of a sailboat from the 60's, all modern boats are beamy.

In my opinion when someone says referring to a new boat that the boat is beamy it makes no sense referring as standard the beam of the sailboats of another era, but today's sailing boats.

If we look at the Salona 37 beam taking has reference today designs, the boat cannot be called beamy, on the contrary, it has less beam than the average of modern sailboats of that size. Take a look:

*The Salona 37 beam is:3.60m *

*Some other boats :* Xp38 -3.70; Elan 37 - 3.65; Benetau 37 - 3.91; Hanse 375 -3.76 Jeanneau 379 - 3.76; Dufour 375 - 3.85; Pogo 10.50 (35ft) - 3.90; RM 1060 (36ft) -3.99; First 35 - 3.64; Arcona 370 - 3.60; Bavaria 36 - 3.92.

Sure, we can find less beamier boats on the market like the Luffe 37 but they are clearly a very small minority and would to have to be called by today parameters narrow boats.

I don't think that the Salona 37 (or the 38) should be described as beamy. I would have described it as having a moderate beam

Regarding all the rest I agree with Bob Perry. Off course the 38 has almost the same hull but has an much better cockpit, a better interior and more storage space on the cockpit. It is also a better looking boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Take a look at this boat, it is a different one and I guess you can see clearly why

This is a racing boat, supposedly a very fast sailboat, a Mini 6.50 class sailboat.























































Now, you should be thinking: This is not an interesting boat, this is just a very ugly and crazy boat. That bow, or the lack of it can never work. Crazy Idea!!!

That would not be far from what I have thought when I saw pictures of this boat a year ago, or so.

But now...the boat has won against all competition one important mini-class race, the Transgascogne and is one of the favorites for the Transat

Focus sur les ministes Thomas Normand et David Raison - YouTube

Transgascogne 6.50 - Edition 2011

Well, certainly it is ugly but is also interesting The mini are one of the open classes with more innovative boats ant this one is no exception.

The skipper is not only the designer but also the builder:

David Raison

Paulo


----------



## bb74

I read about that boat last year as well - the designer got the idea off the lake boats with the skiff like bow.

It planes much earlier (faster) but is a bit of a handful upwind. Great "one design / one purpose boat" and I'm sure some iterations of the hull will eventually flow downstream to more broad designs. I think you could see some "convertable" designs with a bow "keel" that could come down while upwind and up while downwind in the future.


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## PCP

bb74 said:


> ... There is a pretty close correlation to experience and position on the first leg. ...
> 
> Not saying the boats don't make a difference, ...


Regarding the transquadra:

Hei bb, before replying to your last post I wanted to say you were right about this. I read that magazine you were talking about and yes, there are some very experienced sailors racing there. Not professionals now, but some were professionals when they were younger, or very close to it.

On the same magazine, Volile and Voiliers, July edition, they also make some very interesting comments about the ideal boat to sail solo or with a short crew.

I will not talk about it in detail here but I would say that what they say coincides with my experience. Regarding size they say that for an offshore boat the ideal is between 30ft and 37ft and they say also that a performance cruiser will have advantages over a cruiser (we are talking about mass market boats) and make a good review of the advantages and disadvantages of a large beam, large transom boat over a more traditional design.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

bb74 said:


> I read about that boat last year as well - the designer got the idea off the lake boats with the skiff like bow.
> 
> It planes much earlier (faster) but is a bit of a handful upwind. Great "one design / one purpose boat" and I'm sure some iterations of the hull will eventually flow downstream to more broad designs. I think you could see some "convertable" designs with a bow "keel" that could come down while upwind and up while downwind in the future.


I was quite surprised with the boat results and even so I thought that it was just some kind of curious amateur that got lucky. I was wrong.

It is not luck, the guy is really good. David Raison is a naval engineer and worked with François Lucas and they are the ones that first used chines for improving performance, the ones that we see today in many racing boats and some cruisers.

He says that he was looking for a way to improve performance in a mini racer and the idea of this hull shape come when he recherche the Skows:










They had that bow and hull shape for having more stability.

Than he made some computer studies and simulations on shapes and how they would perform and designed the boat accordingly. He says the boat sails as was previewed on the studies.

He says that compared with all the other racing mini protos, his boat is the fastest on a beam reach, among the top 5 close to the wind and among the top 10 downwind.

The worse performance is downwind with more than 25k wind and waves, were the boat takes a good beating.

This bow makes the boat plan more easily and gives a lot more righting moment. He says that his boat with the keel vertical has the same righting moment the other proto have with the keel canted to the right side.

It seems that one of the new designed Open 60 has a bow working on the same principles (not so radical).

Funny thing is that I read once on an old book about design and building of Caravelas (XV century discovery sailboat) that the bows should be well rounded...and I never understood why or for what purpose

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

CKDexterHaven said:


> Full results from the 2011 Big Boat Series:
> Yacht Scoring - A complete web based regatta administration and yacht scoring program
> 
> You'll see that the conditions really favored the J/125; they took the top four spots in their division. I think Double Trouble had the best crew, which is one thing that comes out of this interview with the owner/skipper:
> 
> J/News Articles: J/125 Double Trouble- Andy Costello Interview
> 
> They beat a brand new Farr 400. The Farr proponents will point to its newness and lack of familiarity on the part of her crew as reasons for less than optimal results. Interesting that a design over a decade old can still work well, given the right conditions. From the above interview it sounds like the Farr was faster upwind but incapable of matching the J's downwind speeds.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Great racing from the Costello team and great results for an old boat, but if you look at the real times you will see that even if Costello beat sometimes the Farr, most of the times the Farr 400 was faster.

And then you had only 1 Farr 400 and four j125 and I suspect that the Farr team was not that good compared with the best J125 or has not yet the boat fully exploited.

Pity you had not there several Farr 400 and Ker 40 to just see how good is the J 125 or how bad is the Farr 400. I confess my surprise for the j125 results face to what is considered the absolute weapon.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Three nice trailers with great images of interesting boats, ocean racing boats:

AUDI MEDCUP 2011 on Vimeo

Vendée Globe 2012-2013, le teaser - YouTube

Trailer IMOCA 2011 - YouTube

By the way, today start two great races, a circumnavigation in class 40 and a Transat in 6.50 minis.


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## PCP

I had already posted about this and other dream boats:










So, why talk about this one again? well, because this one is not on the dream world anymore. This Dykstra designed boat is already in construction in Turkey.

Take a look at the shipyard:



















with a bit of luck I we will see it in the water soon, crisis or no crisis

Its name: Dream symphony.


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## PCP

Another interesting one in its way to production, the smallest on the Murtic range, the 43 IRC.










The boat is designed by Botin/Carkeek http://www.botinpartners.com/ and the Croat shipyard says about it:

She is a friendly sailing yacht designed by the world's best design team, Botin/Carkeek, combined with unique design envisaged by the architect and passionate sailor Marko Murtic - we present you with a yachts delivering incredible performance and comfort. She is revolutionary; with her functional and minimalistic design, she delivers incredible performance whilst retaining the cool elegance of an ultramodern cruising yacht.

It sets new standards. Yacht serves as comfortable cruiser, short handed family weekender and competetive IRC racer, capable of competitive racing at both club and regatta level.

With its non overlapping headsails for easy of tacking and an asymetrical spinnaker, the Murtic 43 IRC can be sailed to its full potential short handed, without experienced crew.

The technical characteristics are impressive as well as the Polar speeds.



















the boat is sleek and beautiful managing to have a very cozy and comfortable interior full of light.

A racer disguised as a cruiser, or a cruiser that can win major races? An interesting compromise


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## PCP

Do you have heard about the DSS (Dynamic Stability System)?

http://dynamicstabilitysystems.com/#/profile

That's a kind of a crazy idea with movable lateral foils. The foils are supposed to give the boat more stability and more righting moment:














































Well, that can be a crazy idea but it works. they have tried it on the Wally 94 Magic Carpet (retrofitted) and the results confirm the tank testing results:



















These are the results:



















More Data:

*120 degree True Wind Angle (TWA) - performance summary:*

Percentage performance increase at 120' TWA delivered by DSS is from 1.2% at 6knots of wind speed to 44.2% at 25 knots of wind speed

This equates to being 0.14knots faster at 6 knots wind speed and 7 knots faster at 25knots wind speed

The DSS powered Magic Carpet is always faster than the standard Magic Carpet

*90 degree True Wind Angle (TWA) - performance summary:*

Percentage performance increase at 90' TWA delivered by DSS is from 3% at 6knots of wind speed to 39% at 25 knots of wind speed

This equates to being 0.3knots faster at 6 knots wind speed and 5.7 knots faster at 25knots wind speed

The DSS powered Magic Carpet is always faster than the standard Magic Carpet

*70 degree True Wind Angle (TWA) - performance summary:*

Percentage performance increase at 70' TWA delivered by DSS is from 4% at 6knots of wind speed to 29% at 25 knots of wind speed

This equates to being 0.5knots faster at 6 knots wind speed and 4 knots faster at 25knots wind speed

The DSS powered Magic Carpet is always faster than the standard Magic Carpet

*40 degree True Wind Angle (TWA) - performance summary*

Percentage performance increase at 40' TWA delivered by DSS is from 2% at 6 knots of wind to 8% at 25 knots of wind, almost a knot faster

The DSS powered Magic Carpet is always faster than the standard Magic Carpet

Additional benefits are derived by the reduction in pitching and the increased efficiency of the sails when sailing close to the wind

*Upwind and Downwind VMG differences*

Whilst DSS provides unparalleled performance gains in reaching conditions it still provides significant gains in a windward/leeward environment as shown by the gains in the upwind/downwind analysis

The Wally 94 DSS upgrade outperforms the standard Wally 94 in VMG conditions

*Further gains can be made with a bespoke yacht design where DSS is central to the initial design process*

How!!! that is impressive. Hugh Welbourn deserves a big applause for this development that seems to me a lot more interesting to common sailboats that the rigid wings of the AC boats.

They have also tried it in a 40ft and in a Quant 28 that is already winning races. The Guys from the Italian sailing magazine "Vela" test sailed that boat and were really impressed, with the speed but mostly with the reduced heeling.

Here are the videos:






Quant 28 - Video 1 DSS 27' - YouTube

Dynamic Stability Systems 27 v1 - YouTube


----------



## PCP

Some more information about the DSS, a system that increases stability dynamically trough the lift provided by a lateral foil. This is taken from an interview made to Hugh Welbourn by Harken that is also a partner in the system development:

Harken : Is this concept tailored more towards racing or cruising yachts and why?

HW: It has been one of the happy discoveries that the benefits of the system are related to the boat type. For the racing yacht, more speed, lighter and safer boats with more manageable rigs all add up to a major step forward.

For the cruising yacht, any added speed is never unwelcome. But the far more comfortable motion and reduced heel angles, easier control under autopilot, and totally fail-safe nature of the system are the more important features.

On safety - it also dramatically eases recovery of a man overboard as he can get onto the foil, then stand up on it and regain the boat. Good fun for normal swimming off the boat too!

Harken : Do you think that this concept is applicable for inshore racing, or do you see it being used more in offshore scenarios?

HW: Both.The simplicity and ease of use of the system lends itself to all disciplines.

Inshore, faster, lighter boats you can control are just more fun. Offshore, the same applies!

Harkeen : Can you explain what accounts for the dramatic increase in upwind VMG when the wind speed increases from 10-15 knots? Presumably, that is when the boat becomes fully powered up, but why is there such a dramatic increase in stability?

HW: The improvements to upwind VMG are from two separate effects of the deployed foil. the added stability on a correctly configured system gives the boat more power to carry sail and thus speed. This outweighs the cost of additional drag. One can also see that you can achieve a degree of stability at a lesser angle of heel with the foil deployed, so the boat is being sailed in a more effective trim for speed.

Secondly, the dynamic damping of the boat in both pitch and roll significantly improves the rig efficiency. This also reduces the amount of corrections required by the helmsman or autopilot - again, less drag and greatly reduced power requirements.

Harken : What accounts for the greater performance increase downwind as opposed to upwind?

HW: *The lift of a foil is proportional to the square of the velocity, so as soon as the boat is moving faster then the foil effects rapidly mount up. So the added stability comes into play, and also the reduced displacement of the hull as seen by the water further reduces drag.*

Harken : It appears as though the gains in speed/lift outweigh the added drag of this appendage in most wind conditions, what happens in very light air?

HW: In light airs, then the foil is fully retracted, so there are no negative effects, just benefits from having an overall lighter and more efficient hull/sail plan.

Harken : How will the DSS be secured and watertight within the hull? How does this affect the structural stability of the hull?

HW : With individual swing-out foils the housing is easy to arrange so the major hull structure is on the upper side of the casing. Potential damage from impact of the foil at speed with objects in the water is dealt with by controlled swing-back of the foil.

With the through-hull foil, the casing is the watertight component. Experience with how daggerboards in multihulls and canting keel monohulls respond to impacts is extremely useful in understanding and dealing with the loads on the hull and casing. However, to protect the hull and casing integrity, ultimate over-stress will result in the controlled failure of the foil itself.

In both scenarios, arrangement of the casing will be through the normal side longitudinals/bunk tops so the hull exit itself is further contained within a watertight area.

Harken : How does the foil move from side-to-side? Does the system differ in different sized boats?

HW: A simple rope hauler system is more than adequate on boats to 40 ft with plain sliding contact bearing areas. Above that we move into Harken developed roller bearings for the contact areas but still use with rope haulers. At the top end Harken roller bearings are the favored solution.

Harken: Who is DSS?

HW: This company has been set up by HBW and GK with a small number of highly motivated investors. This has allowed four years of extensive R & D from radio controlled models through tank testing, culminating in the sailing development boat to take place. Our partnerships, which have contributed significantly to the rapid development of the concepts and system, include Harken, Doyle Sails (NZ), and Pantaenius Insurance. These companies reflect the confidence we have in developing and promoting this exciting development for yachts of all description.


----------



## PCP

Some posts back we had talked about this odd boat, a mini proto with canting keel and all and this funny bow. I had said that this strange boat was a fast one among the best mini protos:










And I was right, the boat and his skipper (David Raison) are in 3th in the BIG Transat (79 minis racing) between France and Brasil.

Click on Rankings and then on tracker to follow.

The race - La Charente-Maritime / Bahia - Transat 6.50


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## PCP

I have been mislead lately with some nice drawings that are just "too" nice and that in the end, the reality looks a lot worse.

Happily this is not the case with the new Dufour 335. I have already posted about this project and I had said that the drawings looked great and now that the boat is on the water I can say that the photos look as well as the drawings.

The first tests have been made by several French magazines and they are conclusive: It is a great boat.

The Voile Magazine says : A future Star.

Bateau says: The boat has a big ambition: to look and feel a lot bigger than actually is, for the family profit... and it manages that successfully!

The boat should be as fast as the Hanse 325 (it weights more 240kg but has more 4m2 of sail) or the Benetau 34 (more 200kg, more 7m2 of sail but more beamy) and probably just a bit less than the Jeanneau 33i (that has weights 800kg less and has less 3m2 of sail). The Jeanneau has also a better B/D ratio and the Oceanis (Benetau) has the worse wile the Dufour and the Hanse have a similar ratio.

The Dufour is well designed on the inside but the outside is outstanding!! It is difficult to make a small boat looking good (because the need of standing height) but this one is beautiful and really looks like a much bigger boat.

The cockpit is huge and the bathing platform makes it even bigger.

They say on the boat test that the feeling at the wheel is great (and that is not very usual on a two wheel setup) and that the boat is incredible well balanced. They say that in flat water they can leave the wheel and the boat maintains course for five minutes (I find that really incredible).

Regarding speed close to the wind they talk about 4K with 8K wind but they say that on a previous test with lots of wind they managed 7K and downwind with spy 9K.

The biggest innovation of this boat is the system to control the boom. It has no traveler but has 3 fixed points to the boom line, one central (more near the wheelman that one over the cockpit) and two on the side of cockpit. That corresponds to a huge traveler but without the possibility of having intermediate regulation. How well works this system? I don't know, I would have to try it but the guys from the Bateau magazine say that "all is clear and simple". However they say also that the main winches could be bigger for an easier work.

Another innovation is the lack of Backstay and that is an innovation that I don't like, even if that permits a fuller mainsail and an uncluttered cockpit. On the test they say that all the rigging looks "extremely solid".

The boat that is a Felci design has a big tankage for a 33ft : 220 L of water (normally they offer 100L more as an option) and 160L of fuel.

A very interesting boat and I agree with the guys from Voile magazine, it will be a bestseller


----------



## MikeWhy

No traveller to get in the way, but how do you tack that thing?


----------



## PCP

MikeWhy said:


> No traveller to get in the way, but how do you tack that thing?


This way

Dufour 335 by Marisail - YouTube

I know that this was not what you meant but this boat is designed to sail 80% of the time with the Boom line control on the central link. The lateral links are for downwind sailing and regarding that they will provide a better sail shape than the competition:

The Hanse does not have a traveler, the Benetau has a ridiculous small one, the Jeanneau has a better one (but also small) in about the same place the central Dufour boom's link point is located and it will not permit the "opening" the Dufour system provides for downwind sailing. Besides the Jeanneau boom control clutters the already small Jeanneau cockpit:

Hamnen.se provseglar Jeanneau 33i - YouTube

Regarding the way to use it I don't know what they thought about it, but I would rig a preventer to the middle of the boom to amidships and then to the back cleats (near the wheel). To change tack with the Boom control on the outside link I would just need to have the preventer tight, change the system to the other side and than slowly let the preventer go while changing course.

Of course this is not perfect but if you want perfection, performance and still have a decent cruising interior (but not so good) on a 33/35ft boat you have to put some more money and have one of these:

Elan 350 video -- Yachting World - YouTube

Salona 34 - La prova in mare di SoloVela - YouTube

Salona 34 - Il video degli interni di SoloVela - YouTube

Dufour 34e Paris Boat Show 2010 - YouTube

SNIM 2011 2éme manche - YouTube

BENETEAU FIRST 35 - YouTube

First 35 - Hankø Race Week 2010 - YouTube

You have more options but then you have to put in even more money

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Another interesting boat that I had posted about in its design phase is the CR38DS. Now the boat is already in the water and looks even better than in the drawings.



















This is a Deck saloon different from the others. With this one you will left behind most other sailing boats, even bigger ones.

Even modern cruisers will be on its wake and only true performance cruisers will be slightly faster.

Do you think I am exaggerating?

Look at this numbers:

Loa 11.5 m Lwl 9.75 m Beam 3.63 m Draft 1.72 m *Displ. 6.8 T* Keelw. 2,9 t *Sail a. 78 m2*

The weight is just amazing considering the big ballast that, even considering the keel is only 1.72 m deep, will give it a better B/D ratio than most modern boats of its size. A stiff and powerful boat with a great interior:


















































































They say about it:

The modern construction, designed by Stephen Jones, makes the CR 380 DS to one of the most stabile boats in its class.

It has a moderate draft of 1, 72 m. Wide side decks, a deep secure cockpit, and separate storage for the life raft, high quality wood joinery and good performance. These are just some of the things that make the CR 380 DS one of the best DS boats available.

The CR 380 DS is one of very few that can offer two heads together with two large cabins, extra bed in the saloon and a technical room, all stored in a good looking 11.5 m boat.

The large cockpit offers comfortable seating for eight, a large cockpit table thats permanently mounted in the floor ready to be used. The twin steering wheels and having the mainsheet on the coachroof makes it easy to move around in the cockpit.

Different layouts are available according to the customers' needs and desires.

A great boat...with a Swedish price tag. The boat is built in the Island of Orust home of some of the best world cruisers.


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## PCP

Any sailboat able to make the Northwest passage will deserve a better look. If that boat is not a purposely built boat well, it is an interesting one, so just have a look at this one, not only crossed the North Atlantic at high latitudes has they went trough the icy Northwest passage. After that they circumnavigated:

The boat was blocked by ice in Peel Sound and they hesitated to go through. 
Eventually they found a gap and went through. Some wind pushed them through with considerable speed they reported.



















That's true, it is a some year's old Bavaria 44. Basically a standard boat.

It seems that those kevlar protections that the Bavarias have on the front part of the hull come as very handy to break ice

You can read more about that voyage here:

Perithia - The story about a world trip with a sailing ship along the Amundsen-Route (north-west)


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## PCP

*Bavaria Vision 46*

Regarding Bavaria, on previous posts I have said that i find new Bavarias good boats but that their interior is not a mach for the French and Italian cruisers. It is not a question of material quality just a question of inferior design quality.

Well, it is not so anymore in what concerns the new Bavaria vision 46 (*finaly!!!!*)

I had posted already about the Vision 46t, said that it looked well and seemed to display some innovations...but that I would wait for the interior (I was expecting a typical Bavaria interior to spoil things) before saying more. Now that I have seen more drawings and the interior drawings I can say that I find this one a really new age Bavaria.

Great interior full of interesting details How!!! I cannot wait for the photos and to be inside one to see if those drawings are for real.

The number of interesting ideas is huge and the boat, as the other Bavarias are the only ones (from the mass market ones - cruiser line) that offers two winches on each side, one for the boom, the other for the mainsail.

I am very curious to see the rest of the line specially the 40ft. The Bavaria Vision 40ft is a great cruiser, one of the stiffer boats among mass market cruisers, a fast boat too with good tankage spoiled with a...hum...not so god interior.

See if you agree:

http://www.yacht.de/boote/neue_boote/entdeckungsreise-durch-einen-neubau/a64757.html


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## PCP

Let's talk about racing boats and about one that people talk about in Europe. It is not a big one, only 40ft, but able to go over 30K

Of course, it is a trimaran, but even so over 30K on a 40ft is a remarkable feat.

the boat is a Danish one, named Carbon3 and was designed by Nigel Irens that says about the boat:

"Reconciling the requirement for interior space with that high performance is the almost impossible task that usually faces multihulls designeres, so Benoit Cabaret, and I were pleased to be asked by Jonas Pedersen to produce a 40 footer with 'absolutely nothing' inside. The simple brief was *to draw a flat-out trimaran with the potential to match anything else of this size afloat - both inshore and offshore.*

Our aim has been to address this brief by drawing an equally simple boat - with a view to keeping both weight and cost under control. Clearly rejecting the option to make the boat demountable or foldableis a good way to help achieve these two objectives. THe two beam are straight in plan view, as opposed to being swept forward as is common on larger trimarans.

The layout of the boat has been optimised for the rig, which has been breathed on by multihull guru Torbjörn Linderson (backed by Marstrom) who brings his huge experience to the project.

John Levell, whose structural engineering got Ellen MacArthur, Francis Joyon and Thomas Coville safely around the world, has beddn responsible for the structual design of this boat form the beginning of the project."

Imagine the feeling to be passed this way when you are racing in a relativelly fast monohull (a Luffe 37):

Carbon3 overhaler Luffe 37 Frække Frida mellem Fænø og Bogø på Palby Fyncup 2011 - YouTube

And now look at that "beast" doing over 30K:

Carbon3 - +30 knob fredag d1-7 2011 - YouTube



















And the most amazing thing: Several races, some offshore and not one single capsize

Carbon3 - Palby Fyn Cup 2011 - YouTube

....


----------



## PCP

Update on the performance of the strange ugly boat on the mini transat:

It seems that the ones that give the boat as a favorite had it right. The boat finished the second leg 2th at 28m behind the first and David Raison said with modesty but also with some truth:

David Raison (TeamWork Evolution): "I got scared this morning because I had blocked the main sail up the mast. I thought I was going to crash the boat on the rocks. I, also, have broken one batten. *But, really, after the last 24 hours I was tired. And everything I have been doing was stupid. But my "Magnum" (ed., the name of the boat) is remarkable. I could not use her full potential. Because I, the man, was not able to follow. But she is made to win.*"

I guess that soon we are going to see a Class 40 with a rounded bow and who knows, maybe even a Open 60. 

A bit out of the theme but I thing that what the fist and third said shows the seaworthiness of these little boats and also the human (big) dimension of this race and it is interesting anyway:

Sébastien Rogues (716 - Eole Generation-GDF SUEZ): "It is my greatest victory. Because it's the hardest race I've ever done. The more you suffer; the more it's valuable to win. Especially because I believe I raced brilliantly.

I have always been at the forefront of the fleet. *But suddenly, off Portugal, when there were 40 knots of wind I wondered what I was doing there. What was going to break first, the mast? The hull? And at that moment the race is not your priority, you think about yourself first. *

We had a very combative but quite friendly race with David and Jorg. This morning, I wondered where David had gone. I did not dare to ask by the VHF and he is the one that told me "Is that you ahead of me?" What a great moment! The boat is fine. I can leave right now; I just have a few ropes to change."

28 minutes and 25 seconds after Sébastien Rogues, David Raison on TeamWork Evolution finished this stage between La Rochelle and Funchal in 8 days 21 hours 55 minutes ans 08 seconds at the average speed of 5,38 knots.

Jorg Riechers on Mare.de finished third in 8 days 22 hours 19 minutes and 07 seconds. He covered the 1148 miles at an average speed of 5.36 knots.

"When, before the departure from La Rochelle, Bertrand Delesne collided with me, I was furious. I would have killed him if I had him close enough. I remembered that I was forced to withdraw in 2009. I did not want it to happen again. During two seconds max, I thought about giving up. But I changed my mind. *I laminated from the inside all night and by day I did the outside*.

After that experience, I'm happy with my race. I sail against great champions and I'm third. It's great. Nothing is definitive yet; there is still the second stage. I got a scared like David in the end. I have touched the mole, but nothing serious. We will fix it."

News - La Charente-Maritime / Bahia - Transat 6.50

Of course, I find that Jorg Riechers is also a Champion and a top solo sailor and I would like to see him on an Open 60.


----------



## PCP

After the Xp 44, that is already a big sales success, X yachts presents the new XP 50. They have presented it some days back and they have already 4 commands

The Xp 50 is going to be, as all XP boats a very fast boat but I would say that this one is a bit more oriented for cruising and less for racing, if compared with the 44.

The boat is just beautiful and even has a dinghy garage. If you are a wealthy guy looking for the perfect boat and if your idea of a family car is a Porche Panamera, this is the boat you are looking for


----------



## PCP

*Wauquiez centurion 40s2*

That's a big surprise at least for me: Wauquiez is producing again the old Centurion 40, that was out of production for several years, with a slight remake:
Same hull, same superstructure, different transom, two wheels, different interior and big port hulls.














































It seems to me that Wauquiez is passing for a bad time and I don't think this is a good idea. the boat has a great interior. It had already a good one in the old model and the big port hull and a more modern approach makes it even better.

Wauquiez - Prsentation du Centurion 40 S2

But even if the "old" Centurion 40 was a great sailing boat and this new interior seems great I don't think it is enough to beat the competition. The boat still look a Centurion 40 and that boat looked already a bit "old" when it went out of production some years back, now it really look old fashioned, not in a positive classic kind of way and to put things even worse the boat is expensive: 249000€ without tax.

They say that the old Centurion owners wanted a new centurion and that is bad because it means they didn't identify themselves with the Opium 39. The Centurion is much more heavier than the Opium (8600kg for 5000Kg), is certainly slower and a very different type of boat.

Funny thing is that they don't say nothing on the Wauquiez site about this "new" boat but they are to presenting it at the Genova boat show


----------



## PCP

New boat to hit the water, the absolutely gorgeous Ionic 48 performance cruiser.

Some years back they have lunched a 39ft that have got the attention of the media and from all that like beautiful and fast cruisers, but I always felt that the interior was less then perfect even following the Zen concept.

I find this one a lot better, almost perfect, I mean technically speaking about design even if for me would not fit, I mean the Zen concept in Design.

This Belgium boat is designed by by Pierre Lallemand (interior and concept) in co-operation with Joubert-Nivelt (NA).

The boat is made using vacuum infusing techniques using epoxy resin - a mix of GRP, Airex foams and carbon and that, with that kind of Zen oriented design, permits an incredible weight for a 48ft boat: 11T

Nothing special you would say, well yes, if this boat had a "normal" Ballast Displacement ratio (about 30%), but that is not the case. This boat has a very unusual high B/D ratio: 50% and that will make it an incredible stiff boat, a boat full of power specially because the boat is not particularly narrow, with a beam of 4.26 m and above all because that ballast is deep on a bulb at end of a long keel (2.70m).

Considering this characteristics and with 131 sq m of sail, this boat should really go fast and be very seaworthy.

A racer would you say? No, it has a big fresh water tank (600L) and a smaller diesel one (200L) but I guess this one will not need to waste much fuel.

An incredible sailboat. I would love to try it


















































































They say about it:

"The designers of the IONIC 48 have given priority to performance, manoeuvrability and functionality.

The Ionic48's sleek hull shape, flush decks and discrete toe-rails lend her an elegance that set her apart from other yachts.

Flush deck hatches, running rigging discretely routed under the coach roof and retractable blocks and cleats all contribute to the sleek, uncluttered decks. Aesthetics and safety go hand in hand enabling crew to move about easily and in security.

Each Ionic48 is unique; custom built to the detailed specifications of her owner. Rediscover the pleasure of sailing without compromise onboard these exclusive yachts.

The IONIC 48 is designed for exceptional boat handling: She is light on the helm and easy to manoeuvre single handed."


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 50*

Update on the Pogo 50:

Some notes by its designers (Finit/Conq):

Like its siblings in the Pogo range, the Pogo 50 is tailored for fast cruising : it is light, wide, and features a deep (lifting !) draft and generous sail area. Its speed and its seaworthiness put far, far away shores within reach ! Its shallow draft, once the keel is up, allows access to all little paradisiac coves. Its lean deck plan and large cockpit make it the ideal boat at the mooring.

Its interiors, like the other yachts from the Structures shipyard, remain simple and light. They are functionnal and usable at sea. *Furthermore, they are adapted to the standing expected from a yacht of that size*.

That last sentence means that the interiors of the Pogo 50 will be a lot better than the ones of the Pogo 12.50. And the drawings confirm that. The boat even has doors on the cabins Seriously, the interiors look a lot better than on the smaller boats. Let's see how they will look on the real photos.
































































The technical characteristics of this boat are quite impressive:

LOA	15.25m
Beam	5.16m
Draft	3.50m / 1.50m lifting
Displacement	8.5t
Upwind sail area	165m2
Downwind sail area	280m2
Materials	Glass - Polyester - SAN foam

How, 165m2 for 8.5T!!!! this cruiser is going to be a rocket but I guess it would also be a handful to tame with all that sail. Certainly not for a beginner and I would say that for sailing it solo you would need to be a very good sailor...but this one makes me dream...a Pogo with a decent interior


----------



## PCP

Great movie from the Chicago Match race that was raced with gale force winds:

Chicago Match Cup Wrap-Up - YouTube

Chicago Match Cup Day 4 Highlights - YouTube

On the final the Australians beat the French and for last podium place, the Kiwis beat the Portuguese. All final races were very intense.

Chicago Match Cup Wrap-Up - YouTube


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Update on the Pogo 50:
> 
> How, 165m2 for 8.5T!!!! this cruiser is going to be a rocket but I guess it would also be a handful to tame with all that sail. Certainly not for a beginner and I would say that for sailing it solo you would need to be a very good sailor...but this one makes me dream...a Pogo with a decent interior


I was in Combrit last week and saw the first Pogo 50 hull being prepared for infusion. Quite impressive indeed!

But as I understand the very lightweight design means that even this impressive sailplan is quite easy to handle because the strains are much less than on a heavy displacement yacht.

I hope you agree Paulo, because otherwise even our 12.50 will be a handful!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Hi Erik,
My experience in what regards Pogo is virtually about what I have read or heard about it, but I have heard and read a lot. iThe problem with a fast 40ft or 42ft performance cruiser is not an exclusive of Pogo. they have advantages (big stability) but also some disadvantages.

I have read many times that handing solo a class40 is a thing for very good sailors, sailors that have normally passed first by the mini class racers and that we can consider exceptionally good sailors.

The Pogo 12.50 is a down tuned class 40, it has a bit more weight, less sail but also less stability. I think that handing alone a Pogo 12.50 is also a task for a good sailor. Of course I am not talking about coastal cruising where you can chose the weather but about ocean crossing oceans and sailing with heavy seas and strong winds.

The main problem has to do with sails and managing them and also with the low mass of the boat. You are right saying that the Pogo, because it is light would need less sail that many other performance cruisers but that is not always the case because Pogo carries more sail to be fast. It's upwind sail are 100 sqm and if we compare with the new Dheler 41, we will see that the Dehler has only 92sq m, while others like the Salona 41 have 112m2 (and the Salona is the one that carries more sail).

But you have to put that sail area in correspondence with the righting moment and the mass of the boat and while I believe that the righting moment is similar, the mass is not: the Pogo weights 5,6T while the Dehler weights 8.1T and the Salona weights 7.2T.

This would make the Pogo a much more "nervous" boat and a boat more difficult to handle, one with more fast movements on heavy seas or even reacting faster to a sudden gust of wind.

Another problem with a big main is that probably you will not be able to reach the point where the halyard meets the mainsail (to pull it up) without the help of some steps in the mast. Now imagine yourself alone mounting a storm sail upper on the mast with heavy seas.

But I think that you are going to use your boat on coastal cruising with your kids so these problems really don't concern you and as a boat for having fun, I don't doubt that is the best the market has to offer, in what regards cruising

Anyway I strongly advise you to have them mounting a really short third reef on the main and a removable stay sail (textile for not be noisy) with a small jib sail for it, preferably one that can be reefed and transformed in a storm sail, just in case




























General dimensions
LOA	12.50m
Beam	4.50m
Draft	3.00m / 1.20m lifting
Displacement	5.6t
Keel	1.9t
Upwind sail area	100m2
Downwind sail area	210m2
Materials	Glass - Polyester - PVC and SAN foam

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

Thanks for this thorough analysis Paulo, which I think is very correct. 

The skipper of an older Pogo 40 resumed it this way: “it sails just like a 470”. This is also what we felt when sailing the 10.50, which is probably a little less powerful but has very resembling characteristics. 

I don’t think the handling of the sails themelves will be a big problem, because the boat is very light I expect quite acceptable loads on the sheets, comparable to smaller sails on a heavier boat. You’re right about the difficulty of reaching the mainsail top on larger boats, luckily this will not be the case on this one because the gooseneck is implanted very low on the mast (so low it does not even permit a classic downhaul to be fitted, see picture below). 
And you very certainly are perfectly right about the need for a third, low reef, which is standard in the offer of the sail maker Incidences. The removable textile stay and reefable staysail have also been foreseen, the code 0 will be on a roller and the asymmetric spinnaker comes in a socket.

These boats are indeed very responsive and sometimes oversensitive, in stronger winds they behave somewhat like a dinghy instead of a displacement yacht. Since all of us are enthusiastic dinghy sailors (we will keep our Laser and 470), this is what we were looking for. I’m very happy you agree that we made the right choice in this perspective. 
Because of this particular, nervous behavior only NKE or B&G are proposed as autopilots. But they seem to work very well, even in difficult conditions. 

You are also right we should be aware of the consequences in heavy wind and seas, when we must expect to be working much harder than on more traditional designs. I expect e.g. beating upwind can become quite uncomfortable and this means longer passages will have to be planned with very careful attention to weather forecasts. As the above-mentioned class 40 skipper stated: “my destination is mostly where the wind blows to”. Of course this will not work all the time but since the upwind performance is not even that bad, we’ll cope with it.

And we will certainly also follow your advise concerning sailing singlehanded: this will certainly be done but only in good weather conditions and coastal cruising mode!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> Thanks for this thorough analysis Paulo, which I think is very correct.
> 
> ... You're right about the difficulty of reaching the mainsail top on larger boats, luckily this will not be the case on this one because the gooseneck is implanted very low on the mast (so low it does not even permit a classic downhaul to be fitted, see picture below).
> And you very certainly are perfectly right about the need for a third, low reef, which is standard in the offer of the sail maker Incidences. ...


Eric,
Thanks for the too generous comments about my knowledge. I am still learning...

Yes I can see that you are right on both counts. I can see the third reef on that mainsail, a very rare thing in today's production boats as I can see that you are a lucky guy with that boom and gooseneck. I assume that is the normal boom position and that the boom is inclined to the bow.

Unfortunately that is not the case with most of the boats with 40ft and up, specially the fast ones that have mainsails with more than 90sqm. On the majority you can only reach the top of the mainsail using a step or two on the mast.

I don't understand why this mast is not more used by boat manufacturers on boats with 40ft and bigger:










Maybe it is more expensive. It looks expensive but look how easy is would be to handle the mainsail and eventually mounting a storm sail!

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

Paulo,

I hope you're right, if it is more expensive to build I have an extra good reason for the price of this boat .

May be there are a few more drawbacks. 
Since there is no sufficient room left below the boom to fit a traditional downhaul, until a close reach the shape of the mainsail can only be controlled by a powerful traveller. Bearing down further, we will need to fit the downhaul between the boom and the toerail, that will need adjustment together with the sheet and to be moved to the other side with every gibe. A quite racy and not very practical arrangement, but that will also serve as an efficient gibe preventer. This is demonstrated at the end of the video presentation of Voiles & Voiliers Voiles et Voiliers : Chantier - Grand Pavois : présentation du Pogo 12,50.

Additionally, although the boom rises backwards, it still comes somewhat lower over the cockpit, with less headroom than most cruisers probably would like. On the other hand, this also lowers the sailplan which is good for performance.

Once again, it's all about making well informed choices and what we consider being an advantage may be inacceptable for many others...

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## HMoll

Paulo, you mean the boom vang?


----------



## PCP

The Salona 37 won again.

Well maybe I am a bit partial about Salona because I am really interested in the 38 even if I have not taken the final decision but it seems amazing to me that the 37 that had already gone out of production (substituted by the 38) continues winning races and championships.

Normally you take a cruiser racer out of production when it stops winning races. That seems not to be the case with Salona.

I had already posted about a Salona 37 that had won the ORCI 2011 European Championship, now I have heard that a Salona 37 had won the Dutch championship and also the Henry Loyd Race In Finnland beating the Nordic boats.

No, it was not the same boat but three different boats


----------



## HMoll

From nauticed.org

downhaul, a.k.a. cunningham

Cheers, Hans


----------



## EricKLYC

Thanks Hans!
My excuses, I was the one who started misusing the terminology.

I found out the way Atlantic Yachts solve the problem of the boom vang with a very low gooseneck attachment, Paulo:

http://www.atlanticyachts.nl/downloads/files/1088-TestAtlantic43hkbladzeilen-49-p1i.pdf

Translated and summarised from Dutch: it is exactly the same as Structures did with the Pogo. A separate line that is being rigged between the boom and the toerail.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Thanks Hans and Eric,

Eric, it seems the same principle but not exactly the same (if I am understanding right). Your system has a purchasing system so it will need less force, this one has a permanently rigged system at the middle of the boom, but no purchase.



















The one on the Atlantic 43 is exactly the same I had rigged on my old Bavaria 36 to be able to control the boom from the wheel when taking with the wind from behind (solo sailing). It will work at some extent but I don't think that it will work as effectively as a "normal" boom vang.

Take a look, this boat has 3 winches on each side, plus one on the cabin top. I guess that kind of system can be permanently rigged to a winch when needed. I used for holding mine the back cleat

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

Absolutely right, Paulo.

These Atlantics are designed for ocean passages, with long periods of time sailing the same (downwind) course in mind. I expect we will do much more adjusting and jibing, so this additional purchase is very welcome .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## G1000

Paulo, have you posted this Salona 38 gallery? -->> Salona 38


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Paulo, have you posted this Salona 38 gallery? -->> Salona 38


Thanks G,

No, I have saw those photos put I have not posted them. I was waiting for the first real boat tests to make a comment and eventually to post some but as you have called the attention to them I will post two.

But I would say that I am a bit amazed with this boat interior that shows what I have said to Andrews: This guys on Salona are very strange in what regards the boats that they send to the boat shows. I know that this is a small boat show (Friedrichshafen) but even so it is quite incredible that they send a boat with a so bad finished interior.

I don't know if this is a prototype or something like that but the pillows on the saloon don't match, the wood finish looks bad and on the portboard the seats make an angle to give access to a door that is not there (this is the two cabin version).

If I had not been inside one, with a teak interior and incomparably better finished I would never have considered this boat as a boat to have and really beats me why they show a boat like this on a boat show. It will not attract clients, it will drive them away and has I have said to Andrews, this is not a first time that I have saw a badly finnish Salona on a boat show.

I don't understand their comercial policy

The one I have sailed went to the Cannes boat show and that one was alright (it was the first boat on the water). I believe I saw this one on the factory being made, probably the first one with 2 cabins.

Well, the 41 I had charted had also a well finished interior but I would not have accepted a boat with an interior like the one that was exposed on that boat show. Maybe it is not for cruising and the owner does not care or it's for charter. I have to be careful about this.

I am talking with the guys of Salona about the possibility of having a 38 with a modified keel (torpedo keel with more 250/300Kg) and a bowsprit that include a roller and a stand for the anchor, that and some minor but important (at least to me) mods that don't come on the options and of course, all that without making the boat prohibitively expensive and I hope they can warranty me that it will come with a decent interior.

We will see. I will take a decision at the Paris boat show were they will be with the new 38.

Meanwhile take a look at the cockpit in its standard version (without teak on the floor). that is the one I prefer. It is a big cockpit with all the winches well positioned. I prefer it with the back bench that closes the cockpit and provide additional seating (not in the photo).



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

EricKLYC said:


> I'm also very happy to hear that, Anders.
> When sailing the Pogo 10.50 I was dissapointed about the performance under engine and I'm not shure this will be any better with the 12.50. Like your Opium, they are beamy and light displacement boats and may be they will also benefit from a bigger propeller.
> I will certainly discuss this with the yard!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


I discussed the propeller with Structures last week and they already had come to the same conclusion: may be the one the engine manufacterer provides as standard is too small for this type of boat.

They even suspect that they (in this case Volvo Penta) might do this systematically, because they would prefer clearly underloaded engines in order to minimise their liability.

Anyway, a larger propeller will now be tested and I hope our 12.50 will benefit from this experience. Of course I'll keep you all updated.

So thanks very much again for this very valuable tip, Anders!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> While we are at it, here is some more sailing with the Opium 39, from launching in Kiel to Torekov in the southwest of Sweden.
> 
> Wauquiez Opium 39 sailing part 1.mp4 - YouTube
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Hi Anders,

Finally I have saw that movie. You were right, my slow internet connection at the beach house did not permit me to see it.

You have a very nice boat. Particularly when the boat is out of water and in the air we can see how beautiful that hull is.

It seems to me that you have taken out my suggestion and have modified the standard main sheet system (German sheeting) to a direct one, with a purchase system. It works well? Not to many force needed?

I am curious about a thing: It was predictable that you were going to like that boat, but what about your family? After all that is a cruising boat and as I can see in your case a family boat.

Given the type of boat that the Opium 39 is, one that many would find to radical for a cruising boat and uncomfortable for family sailing I think that the opinion of your family is very relevant to see the validity of that point.

How does the family compare that boat with the Dehler 43, that you had before, in what regards general comfort and pleasure of living aboard?

It is an interesting comparison because they are almost opposed boats. One is a relatively narrow boat with high B/D ratio, the other a large beam and large transom boat, relying most on hull stability and with a B/D that can be considered average among the performance cruising boats.

I remember that your wife was not very impressed with the Opium interior and preferred the more glamorous interior of the Azuree 40. What is her opinion about it now, in what regards functionality, comfort and ambiance?










Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

The new Grand Soleil 39 is on the water. Its lines are very close to the ones from the Salona 38. That's a good looking boat with a moderate beam and a good B/D especially if we consider that all the ballast is in a toprpedo deep at 2.4m.

This is a stiff boat for sure.

I don't like the interior that was designed by the GS design team. I don't understand why there are no cabinets on the galley and I really hate that white stripe that I think are cabinets on the saloon.

The design team of this boat is very curious: The NA is Claudio Maleto, the outside design is from Atilla design and the interior design is from GS design team. I never saw a small sailboat designed by 3 design teams. I guess GS design team should have leaved the interior design to Atilla Design

On the GS site they have drawings of a much nicer interior were the cabinets are made of wood and not white. I hope that can be an option even if an galley without cabinets seem to be the only option.

Grand Soleil - Cantiere del Pardo

Sorry about the size of the photos but they are the only ones available.




































































































LOA:	11.82 m	
LWL:	10.40 m	
BEAM:	3.70 m	
DRAFT:	2.40 m	
BALLAST:	2,450 kg	
DISPLACEMENT:	6,820 kg	
MAINSAIL AREA:	49.6 m2	
GENOA SAIL AREA:	38.2 m2	
SPINNAKER SAIL AREA:	130 m2	
FUEL TANK:	200 lt	
WATER TANK:	320 lt


----------



## PCP

Update on the RM 1260, The French long range performance cruiser that is waited by many with expectation.

RM has never been better. They have already almost all production for the next year sold

More drawings and photos of a model at a small scale:






















































































































They say about the boat:

"For over 20 years at RM, we imagined the original ships, efficient, more elegant.

In this spirit, we asked our architect Marc Lombard, in cooperation with our research, to achieve a "jewel" of 40 feet for experienced users who wish to sail on a sailboat cruise very powerful, elegant, and easy to master.

The specification that was drafted at the launch of the project was clear: to achieve one of the top 40 feet of the European market, offering a high-performance sailing, design a stylish and functional design, draw a boat race, great design attractive that differs from other, optimizing all the technical characteristics of the boat...

Safe and easy maneuvering with advanced ergonomic research. Plenty of space with comfort and safety: width of side-decks, folding chain-plates.
A commitment to style and aesthetic: taut lines, non-slip anti-glare paint, shield that surrounds the hull.

As soon as you enter the 1260, you will see an astoundingly different boat:

A very easy descent, good communication between the cockpit and the cabin. Volume and functionality: lots of cupboards, sail locker, and lots of cubbyholes. Modern contemporary pure lines, warm colours: shades of white, beige and chocolate.

The RM 1260 is designed to go very fast with amazing stability and comfort.

The choice between tiller or double helm.

Bi keel - single rudder:to limit the draft and retain high performance (while enjoying a boat that arises at low tide or on the dock).

Mono Keel - bi saffron: to limit the draft and retain high performance (while enjoying a boat that arises at low tide or on the dock).

The pleasure of steering a fast, very responsive boat while at the same time profiting from the perfectly balanced rigging.

Elegant, well balanced rigging: Performance with a perfect ratio of weight to sail surface. Security with a perfect balance under sail cutter rig with stay-sail.

Note that the 1260 can be furnished with a carbon mast to make the most of this "exceptional" yacht.

Plywood shell with the lightness and rigidity of epoxy, respect for the environment.

Strength and performance:

To achieve these objectives, we have developed and improved our original technology and performance since 1989.

Galvanized steel structure in the holds

Bulkheads laminated directly to the hull while in the mold without straining, giving lightness and strength.

A light rigid shell giving amazing performance, in the most environmentally friendly manner."

Hull length	11.99 m

Water Length	11,68 m

Overall Beam	4,35 m

Bilge keel draft	1,95 m

Draught monoquille (bi-saffron)	2,25 m

Main sail	49 m2

Genoa	50 m2

Staysail	27,4 m2

Spi	105 m2

Fresh water tank	400 L

Fuel Tank	130 L

Roof head clearance	2 m

Berths	7 / 9

CE Navigation class	A


----------



## blt2ski

Salona 38

Well, sorry it took so long Paulo, but there is a link to Bob;s review of the Salona. I'm positive there will be some difference of opinion.....but, I have also never seen Bob willing to NOT debate plus or minus's from reasonable arguing folks!

Enjoy
Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Salona 38
> 
> Well, sorry it took so long Paulo, but there is a link to Bob;s review of the Salona. I'm positive there will be some difference of opinion.....but, I have also never seen Bob willing to NOT debate plus or minus's from reasonable arguing folks!
> 
> Enjoy
> Marty


Thanks Marty,

But you are wrong about that difference in opinion, at most a difference in terminology.

The only thing I do not agree is with this description: * "The boat is pretty beamy with an L/B of 3.17"* but as I have explained on the post about his review of the Salona 37, this is only a matter of perspective: He is looking probably under its own perspective, I am looking under the perspective of modern performance boats that are designed today and are in the market. Under that perspective the boat has a moderate beam, meaning an average one.

As I have said most of the review is a boat description and besides as Bob Perry says, he never saw a Salona, while I have visited the shipyard two times, been inside many Salonas, sailed several including the 38 that he is reviewing.

But I agree with all he is saying out of that difference in terminology:

"It's interesting that given similar markets different designers and builders come up with totally different boats. Catalina has its approach and the Salona Yachts group from Croatia has its own, and the two boats are an interesting study in contrast... The SA/D is 20.32, so while this boat is promoted as more of a cruiser than a racer there is sufficient sail area to give the boat good light air speed compared to the Catalina's SA/D of 15.9.

...The deck design features a big cockpit open at the transom... I like the relatively short cabintrunk but while it looks good it is going to take a chunk out of headroom forward....

Apart from those options the layouts are very ordinary looking on paper but they appear comfortable and functional. I have never seen a Salona in person so I have no idea what its finishing details are like.

One of the interesting aspects of this design is that it uses a stainless steel framework in the bilge to take the keel and rig loads. This includes a hefty looking large U-shaped channel piece for longitudinal loads and steel floors spreading out from the center channel. Carbon fiber layers are added to this framework "to obtain equilibrium of stainless steel structure and inner liner attached to it." The brochure also says the "slamming zone" is built with a single skin "in order to avoid shear failure of the core material under heavy loads."

There is a lot of competition in this size range. To catch the market's eye designers need to come up with something different. I don't see much here that is different. I'm sure it is a very nice boat and I'm certain it will perform well."

I agree with all this. The boat is not revolutionary, it comes as an evolution of the tradition (like the new Grand Soleil 39) it is just an improvement of the previous Salona 37. That does not mean that it is not a good boat, the Salona 37 was already a good fast cruiser boat and also a race winner.

On the boat description Bob Perry says: *"The entry is fine and the overhangs are minimal. There is a lot of rocker in the ends of this boat. Look how the canoe body kicks up at the stern"*.

And I agree and that is one of the things that I like on this boat. Both things mean a more comfortable wave passage, specially upwind and more noticeably with bad weather.

Sure there are lots of medium displacement boats with more rocker and that would even be softer in what regards slamming, but I am not interested in slow boats, specially in light air and this one offer an interesting compromise among performance boats.

There is one thing that Bob Perry did not mention and that is very important in what regards almost everybody: Price.

Sure there are lots of good boats around that could be compared with the Salona 38: the XP 38, the Grand Soleil 39, the Elan 38, the Comet 38, the Sydney GTS 37, the Finngulf 37, The Arcona 37 and many more, but from all those the only ones I can afford are the Elan 38 and the Salona 38.

I prefer the Salona for a number of reasons but the most important of them is that I just like more the Salona and besides that the Guys from Salona allow me to customize the boat in a way that only much more expensive semi custom boats normally do and that is very important for me.
































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

I can buy all what you said. Some agreement, yet the differences are minor but there, ie terminology ones as you describe. 

Hopefully you get the boat at some point in time. Or is it ordered and on they way and I have not read that?

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I can buy all what you said. Some agreement, yet the differences are minor but there, ie terminology ones as you describe.
> 
> Hopefully you get the boat at some point in time. Or is it ordered and on they way and I have not read that?
> 
> Marty


Marty, I guess you have missed it



PCP said:


> ....
> I am talking with the guys of Salona about the possibility of having a 38 with a modified keel (torpedo keel with more 250/300Kg) and a bowsprit that include a roller and a stand for the anchor, that and some minor but important (at least to me) mods that don't come on the options and of course, all that without making the boat prohibitively expensive and I hope they can warranty me that it will come with a decent interior.
> 
> We will see. I will take a decision at the Paris boat show were they will be with the new 38.
> 
> Meanwhile take a look at the cockpit in its standard version (without teak on the floor). that is the one I prefer. It is a big cockpit with all the winches well positioned. I prefer it with the back bench that closes the cockpit and provide additional seating (not in the photo).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


----------



## PCP

Hey Marty, I have one boat for you... and for all that like smaller cruising boats. It is a kind of smaller RM, with 30ft and it is raising a lot of curiosity in France, the Samba 30:




























Like the RM is made with marine plywood and epoxy and it can have a twin keel or a mono keel:

Technical characteristiques

LOA	8,95 m
Beam	3,40 m
engine	13 cv In board, 20cv option
Matériau	CP / Epoxy
Inside height 2m /1,85m.

Architecte	Pierre Delion

Mono keel	
Draft	1,80 m
Displacement	3200 Kg
Ballast 1000 Kg
Sail Area	52,5 m²

Twin Keel	
Draft 1,50 m
Displacement	3400 Kg
Ballast 2 x 600 Kg
Sail Area	48 m²

The boat cost about 75 000€ but can be bought in kit to make it in the garage

more here:

http://www.venetes.fr/FR/boats/voilier/samba305/samba305-doc.pdf

Bateaux voile proposs par le Chantier Naval des Vntes

Take a look at the photos of the building of the first one:





































Picasa Web Albums - Pascal MASSON - Samba305-Cons...

If you like it even smaller, take a look at their 23.5ft. It also looks great, with a real head and all:





































http://www.venetes.fr/FR/boats/voilier/samba235/samba235-doc.pdf

Bateaux voile proposs par le Chantier Naval des Vntes


----------



## PCP

Beautiful isn't? That's a Farr 400 and they have released a nice promotional video:

Farr 400 promo youtube 2.mp4 - YouTube

And an even most interesting one: What happens when a Soto 40 meets a Farr 400?

soto40 vs farr 400 - YouTube


----------



## PCP

Have you heard about Cobra 33? Maybe not, I would say probably not That's an unusual boat:

Have a look:























































Take a look at the interior here:

RUFI - COBRA 33 - Produkcja jachtw ...................................

And a movie (Solo Vela test sail):

Cobra 33 - La prova in mare di SoloVela - YouTube

It is a nice boat. To be really nice that interior is begging for some port hulls but they seem to have the right place for it and it should not be difficult to have them.

Yes it is a nice boat, but it seems very similar to some Croatian and Italian fast boats, what has this one that makes it unusual?: *PRICE*. This beauty costs only a bit over 80 000€

This is a Polish boat, made in a shipyard that had experience building smaller boats and its designed by Andrej Skrzat, a good Polish NA that is most known to design the Delphia line:

ANDRZEJ SKRZAT - COBRA 33

The shipyard is named Rufi:

.: RUFI :. Czartery i Produkcja JACHTW - ZAPRASZAMY NA MAZURY ............................................

RUFI - COBRA 33 - Produkcja jachtw ...................................

Technical characteristics:

Length	
9,93 m
Beam	
3,33 m
Draft	2,05 m Weight	4,18 t Ballast 1,13 t

Main sail 34,80 m2 Genoa	26,30 m2 CE Category A/STIX 35,8


----------



## PCP

Some great images of that "bathtub" that goes fast (second on the first leg of the Mini Transat):

TeamWork - Pornichet - YouTube

Well, certainly it goes fast....but is one of the ugliest boats I have ever saw


----------



## PCP

We have already talked here about the MOD70, the one design multihull top class. First race: Just look at these images

MOD70 KRYS MATCH Best Of : ultimate victory going to the MOD70 Race for Water! - YouTube

Best of KRYS MATCH MOD70 in la Trinité sur Mer - Day1 - YouTube


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Some great images of that "bathtub" that goes fast (second on the first leg of the Mini Transat):
> 
> TeamWork - Pornichet - YouTube
> 
> Well, certainly it goes fast....but is one of the ugliest boats I have ever saw


They do go fast! 
I like one video particularly, not only because of the performance of these tiny little racing boats (and the beautiful smile of Elodie Riou ), but may be even more for the wonderful piano music of Yann Tiersen. De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum, so I only hope you enjoy this as much as I do: Pogo 2 Videos. 
But now I might be getting way out off thread&#8230;

When hearing about this race in the late seventies, crossing the Atlantic singlehanded and in what looks less more than a bathtub, I considered this a completely crazy project that should be forbidden immediately . Meanwhile it has become one of the best breeding yards for successful offshore racing skippers.

The n°747 "Magnum" TeamWork is indeed one of the ugliest sailing boats on earth, but it won the last edition of the Trangascongne race and is now ranked third in the prototype category after the first leg of the 6.50 Transat. Paulo has already discussed this concept and it seems the additional form stability and planing capacities outweigh the disadvantages of this very unusual and especially ugly bow.

I wonder if this will ever grow through to the bigger racing scene, or even to cruising designs. Together with the Dynamic Stability System, which Paulo first commented on this thread and also looks quite promising (and much more sexy ).

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Hi Eric,

When I was talking about bathtub I was not referring to the minis but only to that particular one that was a bow like... a bathtub bow

Pity that the movie with Elodie on the mini has so bad quality. 

Take a look at this one. You are going to find it unusual

GoproHD Mini 6.50 Les Sables / Les Açores / Les Sables 2010 on Vimeo

And some great HD movies:











And a low resolution one, but a funny one:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Rambler: Mayday*

From the Mini, to the Maxi: *Rambler*










*MAYDAY!*

The documentary :

RTÉ Player: Catch up with your favourite TV programmes online


----------



## daviid

*Jeanneau 36i and dufour 34e*

Hi Folks

I have just returned from a 2 week charter in Croatia with 1 week spent on a Jeanneau 36i and the other on a Dufour 34e booked via Ban Tours. I decided to charter a cruiser and then a performance cruiser so that I could compare the sailing experience. Before I describe my personal experience, let me immediately say that the 2 yachts in question were not directly comparable. The Jeanneau 36 i came with a furling main and Dacron genoa with no go fast accessories as in taller mast, more sail area, folding prop, adjustable backstay etc. The Dufour 34e on the other hand was fitted with a classic main, folding prop, adjustable backstay and Evestrom mylar sails that were in good condition. The first week was spent in the Split area on the Jeanneau 36i and the second week up in the Kornati islands and the Sibenik archipelago. We had fantastic sailing weather with winds ranging from force 3 to force 6 most of the time - we had to spend 1 day in the shelter of the marina at Milna on the island of Brac on account of windspeeds gusting up to 55 knots.

Firstly the sailing experience
-	The J36i feels more stable than the D34e possibly on account of better form stability and weight. The beam on the J36i is 3.59m whilst on the D34e it is 3.49m but the width is taken further back on the J36i. Light displacement is 5,700 kgs on the J36i versus 5,400kg on the D34e but I suspect the difference would be greater when fuel and water is taken into account with the J36i having more capacity on both. The J36i can sail itself once the sails have been set correctly. We were able to sail for 5 minutes without having to touch the helm. Whilst the D34e was similar in this respect, it felt twitchier and required more adjustment to the helm to keep a straight course.
- The D34e also felt more tender in the gusts with the heel angle quickly approaching 25 degrees. Both yachts have the same B/D ratio (27.6%) and similar draughts - (J36i - 1.95m; D34e - 1.9 m) and the keels are a spade with similar weight distribution. The better form stability on the J36i must be the reason for this. The D34e felt like it needed to be reefed at around 18 knots true whereas the J36i didn't. Both boats reacted well when over-sheeted by gently heading up into wind when the boat was a little overpowered - no dramas.
- Although the J36i performed creditably considering the sails that were used, theD34e was more fun to sail with the main traveller and sheet being located in the cockpit as opposed to the coach roof. The small adjustment block and tackle for the mainsheet was an absolute pleasure to use without ever needing to resort to coach roof winches.
- We managed around 8 knots in 25 knots of wind on a close reach as a top speed on the D34e and a top speed of 7.4 knots on the J36i in 16 knots true on a beam reach. Both yachts are able to sail well in very light winds no doubt on account of their light weight, hull design and keel design.
-	Close quarter manoeuvring in both yachts was quite simple and easily managed by two people. What I did find surprising was the amount of prop walk experienced on the D34e which is fitted with a sail drive compared to the prop walk on the J36i which is fitted with a shaft drive. Apart from the direction of prop walk - to starboard on the D34e when going astern versus to port on the J36i - I expected the prop walk to be more pronounced on the shaft drive given the position of the prop relative to the rudder. This was not the case - the prop walk on the D34e when going astern was a lot more pronounced than for the J36i. Easy enough to handle though when you got used to it and made it work for you.

Living aboard experience
-	Both yachts for a week was a breeze for 2 people. This obviously depends on one 's size and your creature comfort requirements but we found both yachts really comfortable to live on.
- We really missed not having a bimini on the D34e on account of the traveller being in the cockpit. The adjustable backstay on the D34e runs quite close to the helm and so it is probably not practical to fit a narrower bimini over the helm on the D34e as is the custom on larger boats. The J36i came fitted with a bimini which was adjustable so that you could have it covering the helm position giving clear sight of the sails for trimming whilst sailing. . It is a lot more hassle having to fit a boom tent versus extending the bimini in the afternoon when we had reached our destination. IMHO, if you are going to be sailing during the heat of the day, a bimini is a must have, even if it is only a small bimini over the helm. I think that having a bimini with German sheeting where the mainsheet can be adjusted by the helmsman is the way to go even if it means moving the traveller to the coachroof. This is a personal preference and not an easy one to make as I really enjoyed sailing the yacht with the traveller in the cockpit. Compromise, compromise ...
- The size of the cockpit on the J36i which was a lot more spacious and comes fitted with a table which we didn't find ever getting in the way whilst sailing. The D34e had a removable table which was really easy to set-up and kept the cockpit clear whilst sailing.
-	Below decks, the J36i was definitely more spacious particularly in the V berth upfront where I was able to stand without bending my head. I am around 5 foot 11 or 1.78 metres tall. I need to stoop over in the V-berth on the D34e. Stowage in D34e in the V-berth was surprisingly better than on the J36i.
- The galley on both yachts were similar in many ways. Practical, well laid out, top-loading fridges, plenty of space.
-	Heads on both yachts were small but adequate - we found the mirror on the J36i interferes a little with the basin. The D34e was better designed in this respect.
- The D34e came with 2 berths which I feel is right for this size of yacht. The quarter berth was quite spacious and there was a huge storage locker to starboard accessible from the cockpit or via a door in the heads. Even though the J36i had 3 berths, I believe that having 2 berths would be more optimal as the 1 quarter berth is then made larger and is less cave like on account of the lazarettes in the cockpit and you would also benefit from more storage space as well as having a separate shower stall. 
-	The J36i has a forward facing chart table (same as on the D34e) with a sliding desk top that makes the saloon larger when you don't need it - I thought this was a really good idea.
-	Both yachts had the chartplotter at the chart table which I would definitely move to the helm even if it is better to have them below decks for night sailing.

Quality wise, I would agree with BB74 who commented that the quality on the Jeanneau was possibly better than on the Dufour - certainly not the opposite on the 2 yachts we sailed on.

In summary, we had 2 diverse experiences which I am pleased we were able to compare. The biggest decision to make seems to be where to locate the mainsheet traveller. There is no doubt that having it to hand in the cockpit is the way to go from a sailing point of view. On the other hand, getting roasted in the sun - even if only Med sun - is not going to do much for the ageing process. 

Thanks Paulo for trying to arrange the Salona 34 for me at late notice. The Gods were obviously smiling on us as we were able to charter the D34e last minute without any problems from Ban Touring - Sino and Jelena really looked after us.

David


----------



## daviid

*Jeanneau 36i and dufour 34e*

I have just managed to work out how to upload images - I think ...


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> I have just returned from a 2 week charter in Croatia with 1 week spent on a Jeanneau 36i and the other on a Dufour 34e booked via Ban Tours. I decided to charter a cruiser and then a performance cruiser so that I could compare the sailing experience. Before I describe my personal experience, let me immediately say that the 2 yachts in question were not directly comparable.
> 
> The Jeanneau 36 i came with a furling main and Dacron genoa with no go fast accessories as in taller mast, more sail area, folding prop, adjustable backstay etc. The Dufour 34e on the other hand was fitted with a classic main, folding prop, adjustable backstay and Evestrom mylar sails that were in good condition.
> 
> &#8230;. Thanks Paulo for trying to arrange the Salona 34 for me at late notice. The Gods were obviously smiling on us as we were able to charter the D34e last minute without any problems from Ban Touring - Sino and Jelena really looked after us.


Hi, and thanks for posting

Well, not really a performance cruiser. What you had in what regards that particular Dufour 34e is a detuned boat if compared with the really performance Dufour 34e , the one that is really fast:

http://www.dufour-yachts.com/news-a-dufour-34-in-the-lead-of-the-championship-irc4-242.html

Dufour and Benetau (on the First) have this policy. They sell at affordable prices a very detuned version of its performance boat, a boat that in some cases makes not a big difference in what regarding a fast modern cruiser like the Jeanneau ( but even so it will make some noticeable difference).

Just to give you an idea, the real performance Dufour 34e has a bigger mast, more 4 m2 of sail and an expensive lead keel with the same draft but with more 177kg. That increases the D/B ratio from 0.276 to 0.309 giving it a lot more power and stiffness.

The Salona 34 I have unsuccessfully tryed to find to you (all charted for that period) was a performance version, corresponding to the real performance version of the Dufour 34e, not the one you have sailed.

Besides there are a big difference between the two boats you have sailed: one is a 34ft the other a 36ft, meaning in this case a 71cm on the LWL.



daviid said:


> The J36i feels more stable than the D34e possibly on account of better form stability and weight. The beam on the J36i is 3.59m whilst on the D34e it is 3.49m but the width is taken further back on the J36i. Light displacement is 5,700 kgs on the J36i versus 5,400kg on the D34e but I suspect the difference would be greater when fuel and water is taken into account with the J36i having more capacity on both.
> 
> The D34e also felt more tender in the gusts with the heel angle quickly approaching 25 degrees. Both yachts have the same B/D ratio (27.6%) and similar draughts - (J36i - 1.95m; D34e - 1.9 m) and the keels are a spade with similar weight distribution. The better form stability on the J36i must be the reason for this. The D34e felt like it needed to be reefed at around 18 knots true whereas the J36i didn't. Both boats reacted well when over-sheeted by gently heading up into wind when the boat was a little overpowered - no dramas&#8230;.
> 
> &#8230;. We had fantastic sailing weather with winds ranging from force 3 to force 6 most of the time. The J36i can sail itself once the sails have been set correctly. We were able to sail for 5 minutes without having to touch the helm. Whilst the D34e was similar in this respect, it felt twitchier and required more adjustment to the helm to keep a straight course.


I mostly agree but even if the superior form stability (more 10cm of beam on the Jeanneau) may have something to do with it the main reason why the Dufour is tenderer and need to reef earlier it is because for a same D/B and similar keels, he has a bigger sail area.

Off course the 400kg difference in weight (including tankage) on the Jeanneau will also contribute for that. Even with an approximately similar GS curve the Jeanneau will have a big righting moment because it is heavier. The Jeanneau 36i has 56.4m2 of sail area and the Dufour has 63m2, a considerable difference.

The smaller displacement and superior sail area will make the Dufour a faster boat in light winds. The better quality sails and the finer entries in the Dufour will gave it also a better close to the wind performance, making it able to point higher.

You didn't mention these two points regarding sailing performance. Maybe those strong winds did not permit you to notice that.

The only way to truly compare the performance of two sailboats is testing them side by side on the same sea and conditions, otherwise is better to resource to the values on the ORC certificate that give a much better idea.

The superior sails, better deck gear, a bigger traveler and a backstay tuner will also permit the Dufour a much better sail shape and that also will be important to the performance.

The "twitchier" feel of the Dufour is related to this. The boat is much more sensitive at the wheel and permits you to read better the boat and perform further and finer adjustments to trim the boat better. I would call it more nervous, like a sports car compared with a turing car.



daviid said:


> Although the J36i performed creditably considering the sails that were used, theD34e was more fun to sail with the main traveller and sheet being located in the cockpit as opposed to the coach roof. The small adjustment block and tackle for the mainsheet was an absolute pleasure to use without ever needing to resort to coach roof winches.


If the boat is reasonably fast, unless you want to race it, I think that pleasure and the fun factor are much more important to a cruiser.

Besides, unless you are already a good racing sailor, a boat that permits its sails to be fully controlled in what regards shape will give you the added pleasure of continuing learning and be occupied with that while you sail.

Of course that depends on the sailor. For many the simpler the best and that's why most modern cruiser boats don't even have a traveler.



daviid said:


> Close quarter manoeuvring in both yachts was quite simple and easily managed by two people. What I did find surprising was the amount of prop walk experienced on the D34e which is fitted with a sail drive compared to the prop walk on the J36i which is fitted with a shaft drive. Apart from the direction of prop walk - to starboard on the D34e when going astern versus to port on the J36i - I expected the prop walk to be more pronounced on the shaft drive given the position of the prop relative to the rudder. This was not the case - the prop walk on the D34e when going astern was a lot more pronounced than for the J36i. Easy enough to handle though when you got used to it and made it work for you.


I have also felt that on other Dufour equipped with a folding propeller that I have Charted on the same company and that does not make sense unless the "problem" is related with that type of folding propeller that in reverse has a lot of prop walk and I thik it is just the case.

I am used to having folding propellers and I have to say that on the Dufour that I had charted I never felt that he was folding. No matter what I was doing , engaging forward, or reverse (as I was used to), the speed remained the same. I don't think it was folding (too much fouling I guess). The one in your boat was folding?



daviid said:


> Living aboard experience:
> 
> We really missed not having a bimini on the D34e on account of the traveller being in the cockpit. The adjustable backstay on the D34e runs quite close to the helm and so it is probably not practical to fit a narrower bimini over the helm on the D34e as is the custom on larger boats.
> 
> The J36i came fitted with a bimini which was adjustable so that you could have it covering the helm position giving clear sight of the sails for trimming whilst sailing. . It is a lot more hassle having to fit a boom tent versus extending the bimini in the afternoon when we had reached our destination.
> 
> IMHO, if you are going to be sailing during the heat of the day, a bimini is a must have, even if it is only a small bimini over the helm.
> 
> I think that having a bimini with German sheeting where the mainsheet can be adjusted by the helmsman is the way to go even if it means moving the traveller to the coachroof. This is a personal preference and not an easy one to make as I really enjoyed sailing the yacht with the traveller in the cockpit. Compromise, compromise ...


I agree on the bimini and disagree with the traveler on the cockpit. The traveler has a huge importance to the ones that enjoy sailing and for that, if you sail solo it has to be at hand. Of course to the ones that put it on the auto pilot and don't mind to have a less than perfect sail trim the traveler is not that important and that's why it is a specie in extinction between the pure cruisers.

Regarding the bimini, Dufour as most similar typed boats, has as an option for a small one . Probably it was not equipped with it because the type of sailors that charter that kind of boat don't find it that important, but I do.

The better option for me is a small bimini while sailing and a tent over the cockpit while at anchor. A tent will make a lot more shade than a bimini.



daviid said:


> Both yachts for a week was a breeze for 2 people. This obviously depends on one 's size and your creature comfort requirements but we found both yachts really comfortable to live on&#8230;
> 
> Below decks, the J36i was definitely more spacious particularly in the V berth upfront where I was able to stand without bending my head. I am around 5 foot 11 or 1.78 metres tall. I need to stoop over in the V-berth on the D34e. Stowage in D34e in the V-berth was surprisingly better than on the J36i.
> 
> The galley on both yachts were similar in many ways. Practical, well laid out, top-loading fridges, plenty of space.
> 
> Heads on both yachts were small but adequate - we found the mirror on the J36i interferes a little with the basin. The D34e was better designed in this respect.
> 
> The D34e came with 2 berths which I feel is right for this size of yacht. The quarter berth was quite spacious and there was a huge storage locker to starboard accessible from the cockpit or via a door in the heads. Even though the J36i had 3 berths, I believe that having 2 berths would be more optimal as the 1 quarter berth is then made larger and is less cave like on account of the lazarettes in the cockpit and you would also benefit from more storage space as well as having a separate shower stall.
> 
> The J36i has a forward facing chart table (same as on the D34e) with a sliding desk top that makes the saloon larger when you don't need it - I thought this was a really good idea.
> Both yachts had the chartplotter at the chart table which I would definitely move to the helm even if it is better to have them below decks for night sailing.
> 
> Quality wise, I would agree with BB74 who commented that the quality on the Jeanneau was possibly better than on the Dufour - certainly not the opposite on the 2 yachts we sailed on.


You are making here a huge praise to the Dufour. Not only it is 2ft smaller as it has less beam and more fine entries forward and it seems that it is not very noticeable on the interior space and storage space, aside from that height in the forward cabin being slightly small.

Regarding finish I agree that the difference is not big and I cannot say anything about those two particular boats, but my experience from being inside many boats, Dufour and Jeanneau, is that the Dufour has a slightly better finish but perhaps we value different things in what regards finish.



daviid said:


> In summary, we had 2 diverse experiences which I am pleased we were able to compare. The biggest decision to make seems to be where to locate the mainsheet traveller. There is no doubt that having it to hand in the cockpit is the way to go from a sailing point of view. On the other hand, getting roasted in the sun - even if only Med sun - is not going to do much for the ageing process.


Here I disagree. It seems to me that the main thing are those two different experiences that you have talked about:

One is a relatively easy to sail boat that sails relatively well while the other boat can go a bit faster in light wind, can go faster and point better close to the wind, but most of all it is a boat that you can fully exploit in what regards sail trim and sail shape.

It is not only a question of the place where is the traveler (even if that is important) but also about the size of that traveler, the backstay adjuster, the superior deck hardware and the superior feeling at the wheel. A no thrills boat versus a more complicated and more fun boat to sail. There are sailors for both types of sailboats.

Regarding the Bimini, these boats with travelers near the wheel can have a bimini, a smaller one that's true but one that will protect the one that is at the wheel. The Dufour 34 has one as an option.

You seem to forget that you have sailed two diferently sized boats, a 34 and a 36ft. Dufour is making a new 36 for its performance line, this one will be more suited to directly compare with the 36ft Jeanneu










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Can you imagine the readers of a generalist American sail magazine like Sail Magazine choosing as boat of the year (in all categories and among many good boats) a very racing oriented sailboat, almost a race boat?

Well, that has happened in France were the readers of Voile Magazine, one of the biggest French sail magazines, have chosen this one:










Do you recognize it? Yes, it is an American boat, the J111


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> Can you imagine the readers of a generalist American sail magazine like Sail Magazine choosing as boat of the year (in all categories and among many good boats) a very racing oriented sailboat, almost a race boat?
> 
> Well, that has happened in France were the readers of Voile Magazine, one of the biggest French sail magazines, have chosen this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you recognize it? Yes, it is an American boat, the J111


I don't think the readers of Sail magazine as it currently exists are concerned with much past the latest fashions in deck shoes and watches.

J-Boats always seem to draw VERY positive reviews whenever I see them in REAL sailing magazines. I just wish they didn't always look so damned BLAND. They really need to hire a stylist of some kind to give the boats some flash to go with their dash. As it stands, they are the sailing equivalent of sensible shoes - everything about them is well thought out, practical, sensible and works very well but it's the girls in stilettos who get all the looks.


----------



## HMoll

JAndersB said:


> While we are at it, here is some more sailing with the Opium 39, from launching in Kiel to Torekov in the southwest of Sweden.
> 
> Wauquiez Opium 39 sailing part 1.mp4 - YouTube
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Anders, thanks for sharing! That is a dream boat. I totally agree on the purchase mainsheet for single-handing. Especially in heavy winds I like instant control on the mainsheet. Do you have a fine-tuner on that purchase? I've used one on a First 45 and it works beautifully. Secoond, was it an option with the factory to have the primary winches further aft (where the german sheeting winches would be), in order to single-hand? That to me would make the ultimate family rocket. Congratulations on the crew work too. I have a 6 and 11 yr old. Can't wait to be on the foredeck signaling instructions!

Hans
Cavallino J35
Puerto Rico


----------



## PCP

SloopJonB said:


> I don't think the readers of Sail magazine as it currently exists are concerned with much past the latest fashions in deck shoes and watches.
> 
> J-Boats always seem to draw VERY positive reviews whenever I see them in REAL sailing magazines. I just wish they didn't always look so damned BLAND. They really need to hire a stylist of some kind to give the boats some flash to go with their dash. As it stands, they are the sailing equivalent of sensible shoes - everything about them is well thought out, practical, sensible and works very well but it's the girls in stilettos who get all the looks.


Hi,

I thought you only posted about political stuff

I agree with you even if the J 111 is really raced oriented and means business. Regarding design compare it with this one, the new JPK 10.10










I think the main problem here is that Americans are really conservative in what regards design and if Jboats make something out of the "box" they would lose more than what they would gain.

The interior of the J 111 is poor, but the same cannot be said about the J108 that seems to me a very good cruising boat (I have been inside one and I loved it).























































I would say very close to the perfect cruising boat for two, providing they like it simple, small and comfortable, even if the design is a bit dated (I mean the outside look, not the hull), but the price is just too high:

About 180 000€. With less than that you can have a Salona 41 or a Jeanneau 409.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> I thought you only posted about political stuff


Nope - I also regularly go on the Boat Review and the Gear & Maintenance forums. The Sewer is usually more fun though. 



PCP said:


> I agree with you even if the J 111 is really raced oriented and means business. Regarding design compare it with this one, the new JPK 10.10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the main problem here is that Americans are really conservative in what regards design and if Jboats make something out of the "box" they would lose more than what they would gain.


Agreed that tastes are generally more conservative over here but the J's take it TOO far IMHO. I think some focus on stylistic touches could make them much more distinctive and attractive without scaring customers off. Hunters ain't exactly traditional looking and they sell pretty well.


----------



## PCP

Are these guys sailors or flyers ?

Kite Park on Vimeo

If you think they are not sailors let me tell you a story:

I was coming out of Gibraltar strait and as usual, in front of Tarifa there was a lot of wind, maybe 35K and I was alone on the cockpit having fun on a downwind ride doing maybe 9/10K surfing 1.5/2m waves.

As usual I could see on the shore, near Tarifa, the kits in the air (they like windy places), I was some miles offshore and thinking If I should reef furher the sails when I saw that three of the small colored dots were turning bigger.

They were coming in the my direction... I thought, no, it is not possible with this sea and wind those guys would not dare coming so offshore....

In no time they were circling my boat doing over 20K and I had the strange sensation that they had come to see if that lonely sail on the horizon did not need help

I have said hello to them and fortunately they did not ask if I needed help

It seems that the distance record belongs to a girl:

From Canary Islands to Africa, non stop

Dailymotion - Kirsty Jones' Record Kite Crossing - a Sports & Extreme video

They certainly are crazy but they seem quite safe on those little boards

Next level kite boarding - Red Bull Battle of Trafalgar - YouTube


----------



## G1000

new boat Azuree 49 http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/pdf/azuree49.pdf


----------



## PCP

Thanks G:














































I like this one better than the other Azuree I mean in what regards the look of the boat. This looks perfect to me.

It looks a bit like the Cigale and that's a good reference but in what concerns the rigging I really don't like that arch and even less the lack of a traveler.

I thought that Azuree were supposedly performance boats. A performance boat without a traveler and with only one winch on each side does not make much sense to me.

I wonder to what kind of market they want to address this boat. Perhaps to the main market, competition to the Benetau Vision and Jeanneau DS, nothing wrong with that and in that case, it will be probably a great boat and will certainly sail better than those...even so it is a pity, I mean the traveler and the winches.

G, you were thinking in having a Azuree 40, what happened? Or you are waiting for it?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Speaking about the Cigale, i have posted about the new 16 here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats-125.html

I found some more pictures of it, going hard, nice pictures of a great boat. Have a look:























































And the photos are nothing compared with this movie. Just put it in HD and enjoy:

Cigale 16: An elegant and comfortable cruising yacht from Chantier Alubat - YouTube

and if this one is to sporty to you, maybe the Alliage 53? Well, we can always dream

Cigale 16, Alubat 58, Alliage 53: Alliage and Chantier Alubat present their new range - YouTube






Or if you are more conservative, maybe the Alubat 58?






...


----------



## PCP

And if the Cigale 16 is not big enough or fast enough for you, they are planing a new* CiGALE 18*:




























http://www.alubat.com/medias/gamme/cigale18/cigale-18-amena-2quille-fixe.pdf

Not fast or big enough? Maybe the 22?


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> Meanwhile and as a surprise for many, Poland is becoming the biggest European builder (many French boats are made there)....


That's not that surprising really. Poland has long had a big marine industry - remember the Gdansk shipyard? Along with building ships, it was the trigger of the process that brought down communism. For that reason alone, we should all buy a Polish boat.


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## PCP

It seems that Folk boat is 70 years old and to celebrate that Yacht magazine has made a movie with a beautiful one.

It is really beautiful and sails like a dream. It is also a nice movie too. Take a look:

Folkeboot-Spezial: Erfolksmodell seit 70 Jahren - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE


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## PCP

Some posts back we have talked about the J 111 and J 108.

Two good movies about them:

J 111

J/111 video - YouTube

J 108

J 108 : la croisière rapide selon J


----------



## daviid

*J36i and d34e*

Hi Paulo

Thanks for the detailed response 

A couple of added comments as they spring to mind:
•	The difference in size between the D34e and the J36i is noticeable, particularly in the cockpit. As mentioned in my review, other than having to stoop in the V-berth, we found that we were able to easily adapt to the smaller size below decks;
•	It is disappointing that the yacht manufacturers downscale the performance yachts as you have pointed out but understandable given the costs implications;
•	The standard size of the sails on the J36i per the Jeanneau website is 64.2m2 which compares with 63.0 m2 for the D34e. The sail area should therefore not make any meaningful difference to the tenderness of the yachts. My understanding is that the roller furling main does not reduce the sail size of the main but I may be wrong and your information may therefore be more accurate. Euromarine's website and Yacht advisor give specific details of the J36i that we sailed but are silent as regards the total sail area. If the sail area was 56.4 m2, then this is clearly the reason for the difference in feel in the gusts. In fairness, I must say that I felt that the main was a little smaller when we were sailing.
•	The sail shape of the main on the D34e which was a classic main was much better than on the J36i. I am not a fan at all of the furling main. You sacrifice on sail shape and the safety issue should the system fail in a blow would mean that I would not opt for this system on my boat;
•	The D34e definitely points better than the J36i. We did experience this on several occasions once when we had a Leopard 384 catamaran trying to catch us when we were sailing close hauled; most cats are not able to sail to windward that well and this Leopard was no exception. We had an Oceanis 331 trying to follow us close hauled one day in the Kornatis as well and they has to crack off the wind as they were not able to sail as close;
•	Regarding light wind performance, we found both yachts performed really well. I am not sure which one performed better. The D/L ratios are 167 on the J36i and 198 on the D34e with the J36i have a proportionately longer LWL. This would suggest that the J36i should be faster but if the sail area was only 56.4m2 then the D34e would get the nod;
•	We found that the deck gear on both yachts was under-specified particularly the size of the winches on the coach roof which could have been bigger. One of the coach roof winches on the D34e was in fact breaking up on account of the loads that it was having to take...
•	We were told by Ban Touring that the D34e was equipped with a folding prop and that it was functioning correctly. To be honest, I never checked on this whilst swimming. I never realised that a folding prop can influence prop walk so thanks for the information 
•	Re the traveller in the cockpit, I really feel torn over this issue. On the one hand, my sailing experience with having it to hand in the D34e was significantly better than on the J36i. On the other hand, not having protection from a bimini, even a small one over the helm, was not ideal. Also if there is only a small bimini over the helm, what happens to the others that are sailing with you in terms of sun protection - they can't all gather around the helm and they are not going to want to spend their time below decks ... Having a traveller in the cockpit for racing and for competitive sailing is a no-brainer but for cruising and making sure that everyone is protected from the sun, I am not convinced. If there is another solution to this, I would love to know about it.

David


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> Does anybody knows anything more regarding Najad or Sweden Yachts?
> 
> It is a pity, both were great boats with a great story.
> 
> Meanwhile and as a surprise for many, Poland is becoming the biggest European builder (many French boats are made there).
> 
> ...


Seems that Najad will continue under Nord West.
The future for Najad is secured

There are many reasons why Poland is turning into an industrial powerhouse. There were a lot of financial incentives for companies to start production facilities in Poland about 10 years ago. And it does help, that the polish workers (although highly skilled ), make only a fraction of their french colleagues, work more than 35 hrs/wk, and are generally more motivated to put down a good days work.
I looked at the Delphia at the Annapolis show, and thought it was a step above the Jeanneau/ Beneteau/ Dufour craftsmanship and finish. 
Paulo, any input from the other side of the pond, as to Delphia's reputation?
Bernd


----------



## bjung

Looks like your typing is faster than mine, Paulo....


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> Thanks for the detailed response
> 
> A couple of added comments as they spring to mind:
> ...
> •	The standard size of the sails on the J36i per the Jeanneau website is *64.2m2 *which compares with 63.0 m2 for the D34e. The sail area should therefore not make any meaningful difference to the tenderness of the yachts. My understanding is that the roller furling main does not reduce the sail size of the main but I may be wrong and your information may therefore be more accurate. Euromarine's website and Yacht advisor give specific details of the J36i that we sailed but are silent as regards the total sail area. If the sail area was 56.4 m2, then this is clearly the reason for the difference in feel in the gusts. In fairness, I must say that I felt that the main was a little smaller when we were sailing.
> 
> ..
> •	Regarding light wind performance, we found both yachts performed really well. I am not sure which one performed better. The D/L ratios are 167 on the J36i and 198 on the D34e with the J36i have a proportionately longer LWL. This would suggest that the J36i should be faster but if the sail area was only 56.4m2 then the D34e would get the nod;
> 
> ...
> •	Re the traveller in the cockpit, I really feel torn over this issue. On the one hand, my sailing experience with having it to hand in the D34e was significantly better than on the J36i. On the other hand, *not having protection from a bimini, even a small one over the helm, was not ideal*. Also if there is only a small bimini over the helm, what happens to the others that are sailing with you in terms of sun protection - *they can't all gather around the helm and they are not going to want to spend their time below decks* ... Having a traveller in the cockpit for racing and for competitive sailing is a no-brainer but for cruising and making sure that everyone is protected from the sun, I am not convinced. If there is *another solution* to this, I would love to know about it.
> 
> David


Hello David,

Regarding sail area, the sail area you mention is the one with the standard mast. You had a furling mast so the sail of the main is 23.4m2 and that with the 33m2 genoa will give it 56.4m2.

http://www.firstclasssailing.com/portals/0/documents/jenneau 36i spec.pdf

In what regards sailing in light wind (less than 8K) LWL does not matter because the boats will not reach near hull speed. What counts is whetted surface, prismatic coefficient, sail area and sail quality. In all counts the Dufour is better so I have no doubt that it is faster in light winds.

As I have said to you it is not easy to see differences in speed between not very different boats if they are not both in the water at the same time. We are talking here about a difference of less than a 1K.

Regarding the Bimini and travelers yes there are other solution, the one that is used by Malo and Hunter among others, that is to have the traveler on an arch. That way you can have a big bimini and a traveler more near the wheel but no way as easy to operate than the one on the Dufour. It also has to be a small one.

Anyway with a big bimini you will not be able to see the sails so that will really reduce your ability to trim them. You say that the Jeanneau permitted to reduce the size of the bimini to use it while you sail but that way you will not be able to cover all the cockpit and the guests, making not different that the smaller ones we are talking about

For casual sailing and cruising with guests the ideal is not to have a traveler and that's why most of the new cruisers don't have one.

Like always everything in a boat is a compromise and you have to choose your own. Talking about compromises do you have tried to roll a big bimini when the wind is rising? I have and I can tell you that is a messy and dangerous business

This is the bimini that I was talking about, I mean for using while sailing on a boat with an aft traveler:










Again thanks for posting.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Arpegecap

Paolo, on my Jeanneau 45.2 my bimini had two lexan windows which allowed me to look at sail trin from either of the helm positions. Worked very well and had sun shades when not needed. The harken traveler was on the coach roof - which never bothered me as a quick touch on the autopilot let me go forward and adjust it. 

Reading all your posts, I get the impression that you are a little conflicted - planing hull for downwind speed versus a fine hull which goes better to windward. The same goes for comfortable cruising versus a boat designed for racing  So many compromises!


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Seems that Najad will continue under Nord West.
> The future for Najad is secured
> 
> There are many reasons why Poland is turning into an industrial powerhouse. There were a lot of financial incentives for companies to start production facilities in Poland about 10 years ago. And it does help, that the polish workers (although highly skilled ), make only a fraction of their french colleagues, work more than 35 hrs/wk, and are generally more motivated to put down a good days work.
> I looked at the Delphia at the Annapolis show, and thought it was a step above the Jeanneau/ Beneteau/ Dufour craftsmanship and finish.
> Paulo, any input from the other side of the pond, as to Delphia's reputation?
> Bernd


Bernd, I don't think Delphia has a poor quality than main line Bavaria and Benetau. They have a huge experience (do you know that they makes 7 times more Quicksilver and Cortina than Delphia) with 300 boats a year and they use good products:

http://www.aoc-resins.com/images/uploads/case_Delphia.pdf

Were I think they have a slight handicap is on design, exterior and interior but they are catching up and the bigger boats are showing it.

However they have normally a B/D higher than the other big mass production cruising boats and I would say that is an advantage to me.

d47

Virtual Tour Created By Easypano






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Arpegecap said:


> Paolo, on my Jeanneau 45.2 my bimini had two lexan windows which allowed me to look at sail trin from either of the helm positions. Worked very well and had sun shades when not needed. The harken traveler was on the coach roof - which never bothered me as a quick touch on the autopilot let me go forward and adjust it.
> 
> Reading all your posts, I get the impression that *you are a little conflicted* - planing hull for downwind speed versus a fine hull which goes better to windward. The same goes for comfortable cruising versus a boat designed for racing  So many compromises!


Hi, and welcome to the thread,

Lexan windows are an improvement but will never give you the same view as nothing in between and besides they will not make shade, letting the sun coming in.

Yes, you are right about the compromises but wrong in thinking that I don't know what are my compromises. After all this years, a lot of boat testing and some comprehension of basic boat design principles, I know them very well, including price and the type of boat that best suits them

But that does not mean that I do not understand that for other sailors, different priorities are more important and therefore finish with a different ideal boat, like yourself.

We all want a boat that sails well and a comfortable boat. The question here is how well do you want it to sail and how comfortable do you want it to be and what is more important on that compromise?

Between a boat designed for racing and a boat designed for casual sailing while cruising but maximizing comfort for all including the skipper, there is a full range of choices for the ones that value cruising but to whom the pleasure of sailing is more important than maximum comfort.

There is no RIGHT boat in what concerns cruising boats, just the right boat to each sailor and that means a huge variety of cruising boats. The market is a reflex of that.

My choice is not even the more radical one in what regards comfort among the ones that post on this thread. Others have chosen more "radical" approaches (faster sailing) and they sail with the family that at least in one of the cases also like to have fun while sailing and they do not race or intend to race.

By the way, it is PAULO, not Paolo,

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

I don't think that I ever posted about Solaris, I really don't know why, certainly not because they are not interesting...It is one of those that have been forgotten. Not anymore

For many years Solaris have been doing big sailing boats. the smaller one was a 44ft. Not anymore, they have in the water a new 37ft. We have to go back 30 years to find in its line a boat as smaller as a 37ft. Yes this brand as a tradition and even if abroad is not very well known all Italians know it as a top boat with very good finish...and a price to match.

The new 37 is beautiful, on the cruiser-racer tradition, like the Grand Soleil 39 and Salona 38, with whom shares some resemblances, on the deck, layout and global design. The stern is a bit more brought back and it has a progressive chine on the hull.

It was designed by one of the most creative naval architects, the Argentinian Soto Acebal that among others have designed several wally.

The price? lets not talk about that, if you ask you cannot have it. I would just say that is more expensive than the Grand Soleil 39 and that one is much more expensive than the Salona 38.




































































































General characteristics

LOA 11.40 m 
LWL 10.45m 
Beam 3.85 m 
Draft 2.40m - 2.10m opt. 
Displacement 7,100 kg 
Ballast 2,700 kg

Sail area 78 sqm 
Genoa 34 sqm 
Mainsail 44 sqm

Engine 
Volvo Penta D1-30 30 hp optional D2-30 40 hp 
Transmission S-Drive 
Tanks 
Water 320 l 
Fuel 200 l


----------



## PCP

I cannot resist to post this beautiful interior:










It seems one of the best I ever saw in a 40ft boat, cozy, with great outside views, very well finished and it is from a fast cruiser too, one with a good hull and a good D/B ratio, the Wauquiez centurion 40s, now named 40s2. I have posted about it a week ago.










This interior and that hull deserved a global update on the boat design and not just on the transom


----------



## HMoll

*biminis on racer-gone-cruising*



PCP said:


> Hello David,
> 
> Regarding sail area, the sail area you mention is the one with the standard mast. You had a furling mast so the sail of the main is 23.4m2 and that with the 33m2 genoa will give it 56.4m2.
> 
> http://www.firstclasssailing.com/portals/0/documents/jenneau 36i spec.pdf
> 
> In what regards sailing in light wind (less than 8K) LWL does not matter because the boats will not reach near hull speed. What counts is whetted surface, prismatic coefficient, sail area and sail quality. In all counts the Dufour is better so I have no doubt that it is faster in light winds.
> 
> As I have said to you it is not easy to see differences in speed between not very different boats if they are not both in the water at the same time. We are talking here about a difference of less than a 1K.
> 
> Regarding the Bimini and travelers yes there are other solution, the one that is used by Malo and Hunter among others, that is to have the traveler on an arch. That way you can have a big bimini and a traveler more near the wheel but no way as easy to operate than the one on the Dufour. It also has to be a small one.
> 
> Anyway with a big bimini you will not be able to see the sails so that will really reduce your ability to trim them. You say that the Jeanneau permitted to reduce the size of the bimini to use it while you sail but that way you will not be able to cover all the cockpit and the guests, making not different that the smaller ones we are talking about
> 
> For casual sailing and cruising with guests the ideal is not to have a traveler and that's why most of the new cruisers don't have one.
> 
> Like always everything in a boat is a compromise and you have to choose your own. Talking about compromises do you have tried to roll a big bimini when the wind is rising? I have and I can tell you that is a messy and dangerous business
> 
> This is the bimini that I was talking about, I mean for using while sailing on a boat with an aft traveler:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again thanks for posting.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Best of both worlds bimini. For captain and crew, with zippered joint at anchor. One of many "cruising mods" to my J35. Rollup window for spray.


----------



## daviid

*Biminis on racer gone cruising*

I love the zipped extention for the bimini at anchor - way better than a boom tent for my money even if it gives slightly less sun protection - seems like it would be much quicker and easier to erect.

Also like the size of the helm bimini on the J-boat - some I have seen are too small.

Paulo, regarding LWL and speed in light winds, thanks for the information but what on earth is prismatic coefficient?

Also while we are on the topic, I have never really understood the relevance of hull speed. The polars for a particular yacht often show speeds that are well above hull speed and most yachts seem to have a similar hull speed but are most certainly not similar in terms of their ability to go fast. A Salona 37 for example has a hull speed of 7.7 whilst the new Dufour 375 has a hull speed of 7.6 ie: almost the same. We all know how fast the Salona 37 is.

David


----------



## PCP

Let's leave a more detailed explanation on Hull speed for when I have more time (I have already talked about it on this thread or in another) however I would say that LWL is always important in a sailboat and that's why bigger boats are generally faster than smaller boats.

A sailboat will approach easily near its hull speed and after that the "power" needed to go over it will increase rapidly and exponentially.

However there is a way to trick hull speed and that is when a boat partially floats over the water. The hulls designed to do that are called planning hulls and the majority of motor yachts have them but they can also be find in some modern cruising sailboats (and almost all racing sailboats) that have a hull designed to plan.

Talking about cruising boats we would be talking about the Pogo, the Opium 39, the Elan 350, or the Cigale 16. These boats need to be lighter, carry a lot of sail and have a larger and a shallow hull that can facilitate planing.

Prismatic coefficient is very important regarding the easiness or power a boat needs to reach hull speed. For instance a monohull america's cup boat has a very good prismatic coefficient because it is a displacement boat (not a planing one) but designed for reaching hull speed with the less possible effort (less wind and power).

Prismatic coefficient is also a very important parameter in what regards the drag induced by a boat passing waves. The better the coefficient, less speed the boat will lose and less power will need to maintain a speed near hull speed.

For instance, an Opiun 39 will be better downwind because it can plan more easely than a Salona 38, but a Salona 38 will be better upwind against waves mainly because its prismatic coefficient is a lot better.

Of course this is a simplification and other factors are also relevant.

*I guess this is a good basic explanation about what is prismatic coefficient*:

*Prismatic Coefficient is a mathematical measurement of the relative shape of the bow and stern of the boat. It displays the ratio of the underwater volume of the hull relative to a rectangular block.

In simplistic terms, the greater degree the boat is like a planing hull - think Open 40 or Viper 640 (square-shaped) the higher the number. The more smooth of a curve - think most S&S wineglass shape designs - the lower the number.

C(p) refers to the underwater shape - not the overhead picture of the hull. So it is a three-dimensional representation of the hull and it's likelihood to pound but also to plane. A low C(p) indicates a full midsection and fine ends, while a high C(p) indicates a boat with fuller ends (think the modern trend toward flat-sterned sailboats).

Most cruising boats would prefer a lower C(p), as it will mean a smoother ride in most conditions.

Most racing boats will prefer higher numbers, making it easier to plane.
One major compromise is interior space - rectangles (high C(p)) have more space, lower C (p) hulls have less space.

Prismatic Coefficient measures the rate of change in the hull from bow to midsection to stern. The faster this rate of change in shape (imagine a hull which reached full beam in the first 2 feet of a thirty-foot boat - it would be really slow, and have a very high prismatic coefficient at low speeds. But once it planed, it would actually be very fast.) the more drag when in displacement mode.
*
Boat Design: Seven Things You Should Know About The Prismatic Coefficient | Daily Sailing News from North American Sailor

*Regarding the importance of prismatic coefficient and wave drag take a look here*:

*There are three main sources of the drag on a boat hull, namely skin friction (due to the roughness of the hull surface), form drag (due to the effort required to force the flow apart, as the hull moves through the water) and wave drag.

The connection between waves and drag is very different from that for other two sources. Skin friction and form drag can both be measured by the loss of energy to turbulence. However, wave drag is due energy which is radiated away, as the waves generated by the hull propagate outward....

The wave is basically a result of the water pushed aside as the hull moves through. For a given hull displacement, there is not much we can do about the amount of water pushed aside. We can, however, have some effect on the amount of the flow distortion which goes into the long wave, and how much goes into shorter waves.

This point is best introduced by considering the waves generated by a barge. When it moves, a large bow wave and stern wave are generated, but little occurs in between. Obviously, a barge is not a low-drag hull form, but it does what we want - if, perhaps, in the wrong way. Short waves are generated bow and stern, but with straight sides along most of the hull, there is little to generate the long wave. In short, for high-speed operations, we need a "full hull".

We express the "full hull" property by the prismatic coefficient, which is the ratio of volume displaced to the product of waterline length and maximum cross-sectional area. A craft like a barge has a prismatic coefficient close to 1.0, while one with very slender ends can have a value of about 0.5 or less..*.

Untitled

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Arpegecap

Thanks Paulo - nice refresher on Prismatic coefficients.

Best,
Bob


----------



## PCP

Hey guys, look at this beauty:



















It looks like a small Soto 40 with a cabin. I like it

Just perfect for day sailing or some days of coastal cruising, not to mention racing. It should be a blast.

It is the new A27

A27 Specifications
Hull Length: 8.35 m 
Beam: 2.98 m 
Draft keel version: 1.75 m 
Swinging keel draft: 1.75 m / 0.85 m 
Displacement: 2150 kg env. 
upwind sail: 42.5 m² 
Asymetric Spi: 71 m² 
Design: Joubert-Nivelt 
Base Boat: € 50,000.00 retail, ex yard, as Taxes


----------



## G1000

Paulo, not sure, but have you posted about  Mylius Yachts?


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Paulo, not sure, but have you posted about  Mylius Yachts?


Well, yes and no.

I have posted two pictures of the Mylius I like more, the 11E25 but I did not said it was a Mylius. It was in a post about beautiful Italian boats.

The reason I have not posted is because I post mainly about new boats and the last one from Mylius is the 14E and that is a 2007 boat.

My favorite is the 37ft that is a 2006 boat and still looks like a new boat to me:





































The 11E25 is incredibly light, 4900kg, especially if we take into consideration that it has a large ballast 1950kg and a big draft, with all the ballast in a bulb and that makes it a very stiff, powerful boat with a sail area upwind of 80 m2, with a jib or 100m2 with a code 0.

I have to say that all the lightness is a bit frightening to me. The boat uses epoxy and some structural carbon reinforcements and like the Salona is made using infusion techniques but it is not a carbon boat. I guess that the difference in weight for the Saloma, Solaris or Grand Soleil or X yachts, to name a few, has to be paid on an inferior boat strength. Maybe the others are too strong

I guess this have no importance given the typical boat use. This one is not designed to cross oceans but to have fun!

It is a mix of daysailor with a cruiser. The interior is innovative but nothing special and it is small for a 37ft because they use a lot of space on the exterior and that makes the cabin smaller but more then enough for the intended use. Who cares, the boat is just beautiful and that large "bed"aft, how...

Their site sucks. To see the interior of the boat look here:

Catalogue - Brochure Mylius 11E25 - ELMADA - (Version PDF) - page 2

Finally this year Mylius is coming with a new boat, a big one with 19m :



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

I was looking for Solaris One 37 and came across 2008 Mylius 14E55. Carbon semi-custom yacht for the price of Hanse?


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> I was looking for Solaris One 37 and came across 2008 Mylius 14E55. Carbon semi-custom yacht for the price of Hanse?


You mean 320 000€ more 5% commission more 21% Italian VAT if you want to sail it in Europe? That is 403 200€. Yes I know that it is an expensive boat, back in 2008 it costed 470 000€ without taxes but luxury boats are the ones that get the biggest devaluation and this is a 3 year old boat and as it is already out of season you can look at it as a 4 year old boat.

Another thing that contributes to the devaluation is that the interior, that, as I had said to the 11m, is not nothing special, I would say that it is even on the ugly side.

I bet you can get it for a lot less and even if the interior is nothing special this is a very good sailboat

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Well I guess this beauty is in trouble:

Maxi Yachts

We have been following here its development and the boat should be presented in Dusseldorf boat show, in January 2012 but I guess that the project is stopped by now.

Maxy yachts belonged to Najad and contrary to Najad yachts it will not be retained by the ones that have bought Najad. Maxi yachts is for sale and if they don't find a buyer it can be the end of Maxi Yachts...and just now when they were doing something interesting


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> back in 2008 it costed 470 000€


Probably this price was just for a basic spec and with add-ons 564 000€. Now it is even down to 300 000€, 3 years and half price  Sorry for this off topic.


----------



## daviid

Hi Paulo

Thamks for the bit on prismatic co-efficient - much obliged. If you have already posted on hull speed elsewhere, let me have a link when you get a chance. I have a better understanding now but I am sure there is more to it.

David


----------



## PCP

Yes David, I am sure I had posted something about it but cannot find it so I will try to make a new post about the basic stuff.

first look at this picture:










The graphic represents the increased force needed for two 10m heavy displacement long keel boat due to drag while the speed increases. One boat has a prismatic coefficient of 0.53 and the fuller one (but with the same beam one) 0.62.

We can see that between 5 and 7.3K speed the one with thinner entries need considerably less force. We can see also that over 7.3 the fatter boat has a very slight advantage over that speed. We can see also that for taking advantage of that benefice we will need about 3 times more force than the one that needed to sail the boat at 6K, an huge force that can only be generated downwind with big winds and huge sails with enormous stress to the rig and boat.

A negligible advantage considering that the advantage of the thinner boat with less force (less wind and sail) will be much more exploitable.

I don't have a graphic with the same boat, same hull and half the weight but what you would give a much fuller curve that would show that the boat would need less force for getting the same speed and that's because with half weight the boat would have a lot less wet surface and therefore less drag. Things would improve, in what regards the needed force, if we take out the full keel and put a narrow fin keel and spade ruder: less wet surface again, so less drag.

On a light boat the end of the curve would not close so sharply meaning that the boat given adequate power could go much more easily over hull speed and on that particular point a more fuller shape can have advantage because the power needed to put the boat over hull speed is not unattainable and the needed force will be less with a fuller shape. Off course a fuller shape will gain there but will lose on the force needed at smaller speeds, or against waves were the drag would increase more than with a thinner shape.

So the factors are less wet surface, less prismatic coefficient and more power. Regarding power it is convenient to remember that a more fuller shape will also provide more form stability increasing drag but also the power needed to overcome it. That makes for instance an Open 60 or a 40class boat able to get a good performance against the wind and waves but that at the cost of more needed power (more sail area) and more pounding.

So let's have a look at the boats that you were talking about, the Salona 38 (the Salona 37 has the same hull) and the Dufour 375:

The Salona has a slightly bigger waterline: 10.15 m to 9.89, less 660kg of weight (6300 to 6960), less 23cm of beam (362 to 385) and a considerable better prismatic coefficient not only because it has less beam for the same lenght but also because it has thinner entries.

The Salona also has considerable more ballast (420kg more) for a similar keel with the same draft (2270 kg to 1850 kg - 1.95m draft) and an even bigger difference in ballast/displacement ratio : 0.360 to 0.266.

The bigger form stability of the Dufour is not able to compensate the difference in the righting moment given by the much superior D/B ratio of the Salona and so this one has the power to carry much more sail, more 26 m2 (88.4 to 67.0).

The Salona will have less drag due to a better prismatic coefficient and to a less wet surface (lower weight) it is more stiff (more righting moment) and has much more power (more sail area/righting moment).

That curve between the Salona and the Dufour will show that the Salona will need noticeably less power to a given speed and has the Salona has more power available that will make it a much faster boat even if near hull speed the differences would not be so noticeable.

The bigger difference will be with lighter winds (less than 12K) were the Salona will be considerably faster, especially in very weak winds (less than 9K). And also in high winds, downwind were the superior beam of the Dufour will not be able to compensate the much lesser weight and the ability for the Salona to carry more sail. For the recorded experience (mine and from others) with this kind of boats, downwind with a lot of wind it will be difficult for the Dufour to go over 10k while for the Salona that difficulty will happen at about 12K, and I am talking in sailing in about 30/35K wind with waves that would help the boats to surf. Boats like the Salona can go under Spinnaker with an experienced crew to speeds of 16K and that is just not possible with the Dufour.

The Dufour will also lose clearly in the superior capacity that the Salona will have to accelerate in all puffs of air (less weight, more sail) on the capacity to close downwind and also in the capacity to maintain speed upwind against waves. Here the lesser prismatic coefficient of the Salona will permit him to have less wave drag while its superior righting moment (power) will make it able to sustain speed while the Dufour will stale.

The Dufour will only have an advantage and that is that in medium winds probably the boat will sail with less heel than the Salona, due to its major component in form stability.

In what regards reserve stability and seaworthiness, the Salona will have a much better righting moment at 90º, a better AVS and a smaller inverted stability.

David, I have taken so much time answering you because your's was a good question and one that will explain the difference in two different boat concepts and not necessarily between a Salona and a Dufour 375. If we compare a Benetau 37 or a Bavaria 38 with a Xp 38 or a J 125 the results are not going to be much different.

Finally as last comet about those differences, something that you have already discovered on the Dufour 34e (even in its soft version) in comparison with the Jeanneau 36i: The performance boat is much more nervous and agreeable (fun) to steer.

A final warning: That huge difference in sail (21.4m2) between the Salona and Dufour is not only due to the superior righting moment of the Salona but because the Salona has more sail for a given righting moment (like all really performance boats towards cruisers). That will make it probably a boat that will need to reef earlier (or at least at the same time) and a more nervous boat that will demand a more experienced sailor (not necessarily a more dangerous boat, quite the opposite but one that is more difficult to sail).

That's why most performance cruisers have a softer version, with a smaller mast and less sails for the ones that want to have the power and the safety without having a nervous and more demanding boat. However much of these detuned and less expensive versions also have a lesser righting moment because the hull is made out of a different material (epoxy versus inferior and heavier resins) and therefore more heavier or because to a smaller draft does not correspond the needed increment in weight to maintain the same righting curve. Pay attention to that.

Regarding to the Salona that I am trying to obtain I will want it with more 250kg on the ballast (that is the same 2270kg but on a 2.25keel), just to carry all that sail without the need to reef earlier, to have a more powerful and less nervous boat with heavier weather and also one with a better reserve stability. The better of two worlds

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Arpegecap said:


> - nice refresher on Prismatic coefficients.
> 
> Best,
> Bob


Thanks.

New boat and nothing less than the actual Italian champion:

http://www.campionatoitalianoaltura2011.it/sites/default/files/06quotidianotriestewev.pdf

Another 38ft performance cruiser, an Italian one and as most of the Italian sailboats, a beauty: the NM 38.








































































































































The boat looks great and those interiors seem very nice, especially the more modern (less wood) unfortunately they look a lot less impressive in reality:

NM 38 news Salone di Genova.wmv - YouTube

Nautilus Marine NM 38 prova in mare by www.blumag.it - YouTube

They say about the boat:

*The hull and deck are constructed under a vacuum, using female moulds and are made in PVC "sandwich" style with unidirectional and biaxial fibers glass and laminated with epoxy resin (with a lifetime guarantee against osmosis).

The carbon fibers used to reinforce the hull bottom gives a greater structural rigidity. Hull and deck are subjected to a post-treatment cycle for maximum performance of mechanical rigidity.

The structure grid is made of carbon and support the loads of the keel, mast and chain-plates, making the entire craft highly secure, even in extreme conditions.

Bulkheads are of marine plywood which are attached to the hull and fixed on the deck. The anti-collision bulkheads forward and aft are made with the same techniques like the hull and deck, so the stern and the bow of the boat are lighter and passing the wave is more comfortable.*

It seems great. It is a pity that this boat has a relatively low D/B ratio, 0.309 for a 1.95m draft. A crew seated on the side would not be indispensable but I bet this boat will reef rely soon without it and will have its performance noticeably handicapped. That and an interior a bit impersonal seem to me the only drawbacks for a boat that don't seem very expensive for its quality: 168 000€ without taxes.

About more 38 500€ more than the salona 38, but for having a boat with similar specs (vacuum infused and epoxy resins) the difference would be only 18 300€. However the Salona interiors seems a lot better to me.

*Technical specifications
EC Certification: cat. A
Width overall: 11.40 mt
Length water line: 10.15 mt
Full beam: 3.58 mt
Draught: 1.97 / 2.30 mt
Displacement: 5.500 Kg
Ballast: 1.700 Kg
Berths: 2 / 3
Sail Area: 78 mq
Mainsail: 44 mq
Jib 105%: 34.5 mq
Spinnaker area (ORC): 100 mq*

....


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## slap

Paulo -

In a recent post, you gave two different definitions of prismatic coefficient - one was not correct.

This one is incorrect - this one is the definition of block coefficient.



> Prismatic Coefficient is a mathematical measurement of the relative shape of the bow and stern of the boat. It displays the ratio of the underwater volume of the hull relative to a rectangular block.


And this is the correct one:



> We express the "full hull" property by the prismatic coefficient, which is the ratio of volume displaced to the product of waterline length and maximum cross-sectional area.


----------



## slap

*PT-11 Three Little Birds*

One of the more notable boats at the Annapolis boat show this year was the PT-11 trimaran "Three Little Birds". It is 36 feet long.





































The price is around $700K


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## daviid

Hi Paulo

Very interesting information on hull speed - thanks very much!

David


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## PCP

slap said:


> Paulo -
> 
> In a recent post, you gave two different definitions of prismatic coefficient - one was not correct.
> 
> This one is incorrect - this one is the definition of block coefficient.
> 
> Quote:
> Prismatic Coefficient is a mathematical measurement of the relative shape of the bow and stern of the boat. It displays the ratio of the underwater volume of the hull relative to a rectangular block.
> 
> And this is the correct one:
> 
> *Quote:
> We express the "full hull" property by the prismatic coefficient, which is the ratio of volume displaced to the product of waterline length and maximum cross-sectional area.*


Slap, I was quoting, not giving definitions and both quotes seems correct to me. The problem here is that is difficult to translate mathematical definitions to words.

In fact both the Prismatic coefficient and the block coefficient are ratios to a box or a prismatic figure as you want to put it.

* Block Coefficient... If you draw a box around the submerged part of the ship, it is the ratio of the box volume occupied by the ship.

Prismatic Coefficient... It displays the ratio of the immersed volume of the hull to a volume of a prism with equal length to the ship and cross-sectional area equal to the largest underwater section of the hull (midship section). *

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_(watercraft)

These drawings explain it clearly:










http://www.marinetechs.com/Definitions,27

The guy you have said that had given an incorrect definition explains it more detailed (and correctly) on the linked text with this figure an comments:










*From the diagram, the longitudinal Cp = Volume / (Am x Lpp) Volume = volume of hull at draft T Am = midship section area (at given draft T, in figure) Lpp = length between perpendiculars.*

http://nasailor.com/2011/06/05/boat...-should-know-about-the-prismatic-coefficient/

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Slap,

Thanks for posting about the PT-11.










Lovely boat but with all the problems trimarans have versus same interior sized monohulls: price

The interior is functional but quite impersonal for living aboard. I guess not better than this one from the Corsair 37:




























and this one is not so expensive and has the advantage of folding the arms for not paying the double in a marina.

I have to say that the PT 11 looks better (on the outside) and is probably a bit faster but the Corsair does also look good, particularly in its all carbon version that even so it is less expensive than the PT 11.










But if money is not a problem neither space at the marina or the stark interior, for the ones that like to have fun....*what a bird!!!!!*
































































Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

New 360º photo for the Salona 38. Inside and outside, lots of views.

360 - Salona Yachts

The design and quality are good but they have to find another upholsterer. The cushions don't match and that's not the first time that I have saw that on a Salona. How difficult is that? .

The head on the three cabin boat (this one) is too small. It is a good one on the two cabin boat.

Outside the cockpit is really great, except that table that the only advantage is that it can be taken away and mounted in no time. I know that they are studding a new one, hopefully better looking and with handholds for the ones that sail with the table on (it will also be a removable one).

Also a movie taken by the magazine Vela in the Genova boat show:

Salona 38 new.wmv - YouTube

....


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## PCP

The same for the Xp 38, I mean, the movie made by the same magazine in the Genoa boat show. They don't have yet a 360º photo of this one.

Xp 38 new.wmv - YouTube

The cockpit is very similar to the one from Salona and I just love the bowsprit. They guys from Salona are working in one for the 38 and I can just wait that it looks as awesome as this one.

The quality looks good but the Salona is warmer and the cabin of this one looks smaller. I guess that is because they have the head not in front but in the boat center and that makes the saloon smaller. This head is bigger than the one in the three cabin Salona (this is also the three cabin version), but smaller than the one in the Salona two cabin version.

Funny, I cannot find on the x yacht site the drawings for the two cabin version. This is the only version?

..


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## PCP

In the Genova boat show Vela Magazine made also movies about some other boats:

*Sly 42 Fun*

Sly 42 Fun new.wmv - YouTube

*Bavaria 50 cruiser*

Bavaria 50 Cruiser new - YouTube

also from FareVela:

http://www.yacht.de/multimedia/yacht_tv/test_technik/entspannung-bei-6-beaufort/a64063.html

*Hanse 385*

Hanse 385 new - YouTube

Not from Vela magazine, just a good advertiser from Hanse:






*Catalina 355*

Catalina 355 new - YouTube

and since we are talking about Catalina, another good movie made by the German magazine Yacht that tested the 375 (with 6 Beaufort)

http://www.yacht.de/multimedia/yacht_tv/test_technik/entspannung-bei-6-beaufort/a64063.html

....


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## PCP

One that misses between those boats is the new jeanneau 379, Hanse 385 direct concurrent. Some movies too:

Sun Odyssey 379 - YouTube

Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 379 - Marine Ventures.mov - YouTube

The boat was tested by the German magazine Yacht. Some great photos of that test:


----------



## PCP

I have not yet posted about Shipman and that is strange because they are among the sailboats I like more. If I had a lot of money this would be probably on my short list because they are beautiful, fast, small draft (lifting keel), with great panoramic interiors, a lot less expensive than custom made boats and are designed to be solo sailed. That ability to be sailed solo or with a very small crew is very rare among big sailboats, and the Shipman are big. The Smallest is a 63ft.

On the year that they made that one it won the European boat of the year contest in its category and I remember that the one that was second, the Halberg Rassy 54 had an higher price (or costed about the same?). Anyhow I remember having been surprised by the "low" Shipman price, specially because this is a carbon boat and a Danish one and Danish boats are normally expensive boats (the Shipman is not built in Denmark)

Take a look at some photos of some of their boats:








The 72fter








The 80ft








80ft

Take a look at these movies about the 80ft and the 63ft:

Shipman 80 - official video - YouTube

ASW 2011 Antigua Sailing Week 2011 Shipman 63 boat speed 21kts - YouTube

They say about their boats:

*We had a vision. 
We wanted to create a sailing yacht for visiting the world's most attractive cruising grounds that would be indulgently relaxing, comfortable and yet would not sacrifice the feel and speed of a racing craft. She would need to be reliable and seaworthy in all conditions, simple to control and capable of sustaining high speeds under sail or engine for an extended period, with a minimal crew.

It should be of sophisticated design, yet simple to maintain.
It should be fast, but easy to control.
It should be stable, but still capable of exploring shallow bays.
It should make life for the owner easy and stress free.
It should be of sufficient strength, range and equipment to allow a summer in the Med, a winter in the CARIBBEAN and two transatlantic crossings per year, all without effort and stress.

A Shipman is defined as a single-handed pilothouse high-performance yacht.

Fast and strong, seaworthy, easy to sail and handle, functional and good looking, she is the racer's world cruiser.

In recent years, advances in technology have led to dramatic improvements in performance. Offshore multihulls, Open 60s and Volvo racers have smashed all records and set the standards of ocean-going speed to new and incredible levels. 
The secret of these racers' speed potential lies in a new technology developed around two materials: CARBON fibres and EPOXY resin. When resin systems are combined with reinforcing fibres such as carbon, exceptional properties can be obtained. The resin matrix spreads the load applied to the composite between each of the individual fibres and also protects the fibres from damage caused by abrasion and impact.

These modern materials give a stronger and stiffer boat and are the key factor in the dramatic increase in performance of today's racing boats. The use of these exotic materials is the main price-influencing factor (together with the carbon rig) but the only way to lower displacement, bringing easy handling and high performance.

For this reason, these materials have, until now, only been available to those with a one-off budget. But now, Shipman has made a series of important developments in the design and building process to enable the production of a high-tech, high-performance yacht at moderate cost. All Shipman carbon yachts incorporate these new techniques to redefine cruising performance without compromising safety or durability.*

But of course if the 80ft is not big enough to you they had proposals till the 150ft sailboat.

Just look at the 130ft boat, that is able to make 9k speed with 6k wind and 12kspeed with 8k wind. About max speed with strong winds I don't know but the small one (63fr) is able to do over 20K. Regarding the max speed on the 80ft, I just don't know but I dare to say that will be a lot more than 20K.

Of course if you want to go faster you have just to have the 150ft


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## PCP

Do you know Shaw boats?

They are designed and made by Robert Shaw and they are mostly racers, interesting and fast boats, with a cruiser-racer on the line and if some think that I post some radical performance cruisers take a look at the numbers of this one:










Principal Dimensions
LOA 10.6m
LWL 9.8m
Beam 3.2m
Draft 3m
Displacement 2800kg
Sail Area 
Upwind 84m2
Main 51m2
Jib 33m2
Gennaker 160m2

*They say about the 10.6m Cruise/Race

The Shaw 10.6 Cruise/Race is designed for harbour and coastal racing, with the ability to go offshore in races such as Auckland-Fiji. It has a canting keel, and can be cruised or raced short-handed by two crew or fully crewed with up to eight sailors. It has a moderate-volume interior which makes for comfortable cruising without comprimising race performance.*

But most of them are coastal racers with the exception of this one , the 9m that is not only designed for coastal racing but as also the ability to go offshore in races such as Auckland-Fiji or the Transpac.

It has a canting keel a forward canard or twin dagger boards and needs a four or five crew to tame it















But all of them look beautiful to me:





































The smaller ones, like this one, are a bit wet to sail even if great fun:










To see what I mean just see this movie, it is hilarious:

Monkey Business at Airlie 2011 - YouTube

...


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## G1000

PCP said:


> ...the Shipman are big. The Smallest is a 63ft.
> 
> On the year that they made that one it won the European boat of the year contest in its category and I remember that the one that was second, the Halberg Rassy 54 had an higher price (or costed about the same?). Anyhow I remember having been surprised by the "low" Shipman price, specially because this is a carbon boat and a Danish one and Danish boats are normally expensive boats (the Shipman is not built in Denmark


European boat of the year was...

Shipman 50 concept was born in 2001. The idea of a new singlehanded high-performance pilothouse offshore cruiser was developed by Joergen Bonde, the Danish owner of Shipman Yachts, and Jernej and Japec Jakopin of Slovenian J&J Design/Seaway. The carbon/epoxy prepreg technology was generously transferred by Bill Green of Green Marine in Lymington (UK), and the materials engineering and supply came from Giovanni Belgrano of SP Systems in Cowes (UK). The result surpassed expectations : Shipman 50 was elected the overall winner of European Boat Of The Year 2003 contest by 11 votes coming from 11 participating countries in January 2004. Shipman 50 was faster, more easily handled, stronger and more comfortable than any comparable boat giving new feeling of performance and enjoyment to cruising and club racing. 11 boats were sold to 9 countries. Complete tooling set was lost in a fire on April 11th 2007.

Today several used Shipman 50 are for sale (priced at 700k EUR). As far as I remember new Shipman 72 price was +4 mio EUR and Shipman 63 +2.5 mio EUR. This price tag probably "low" for Russian oligarchs as majority of Shipmans are owned by them.

Take a look at this post of new Shipman 80  launch. Also if interested check blog of this Russian Shipman 72 skipper (he is also Shipman dealer). Unfortunately blog is in Russian, but almost every post comes with nice pictures.

Also take a look at red Shipman 72 'Moksha' gallery and don't forget to check the wall with news like "we broke Moksha's personal speed record maxing out at 22.2knots"


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## PCP

G1000 said:


> European boat of the year was...
> 
> Shipman 50 concept was born in 2001. ... Shipman 50 was elected the overall winner of European Boat Of The Year 2003 contest by 11 votes coming from 11 participating countries in January 2004. Shipman 50 was faster, more easily handled, stronger and more comfortable than any comparable boat giving new feeling of performance and enjoyment to cruising and club racing. 11 boats were sold to 9 countries...


Thanks for remember that and for the links. Yes you are right, the first one was a 50ft. When I said that the smaller of the Shipman was the 63ft I was referring to today's production. The one that has started it all 8 years ago was the Shipman 50, that was already a beautiful boat:










Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Half surprise from Halber-Rassy: What seemed to be an isolated experience with the 372 has turning now on a new line. HR is making a new aft cockpit boat, the HR 412.

On HR, Only boats smaller than 37ft were aft cockpit boats, the offshore HR were basically center cockpit boats but now, with the sells from the 37 center cockpit much worse than the ones from the 372 (aft cockpit) and losing sales to the new line of cruising boats from X yachts, HR decided to offer a 41ft boat with an aft cockpit. The 40ft center cockpit boat will be maintained.

This boat is also the first beamy HR: 4.11m. The old center cockpit 40ft had only 3.82m.

The boat share similar characteristics with the XC-42 but it seems to me that the XC has a more modern design and surprisingly a bit better D/B ratio.

Anyway, a more modern and good looking HR is always good news. The basic price of the new boat will be around: 435 000 €


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## PCP

I have posted already about the new Arcona 410...that for me is a bit of a delusion. I have hopped for more. The boat is just too close to the old 400 that was already many years old and looked already dated.

Let's compare, this is the "old 400":



















And this is the new 410:




























It has two wheels instead of one,the transom just a little larger with the beam brought just a bit aft and the interior is, to put it in the words of Yachting world, "a bit dull". Of course this is a boat with a very good quality overall, with a steel structure that distributes the efforts of the keel and shrouds...but I guess dull is the right word for what could be a very interesting sailboat.

Yachting Monthly tested the boat recently and they have said well about everything, from the quality to the sailing performance...except that they found the interior a bit dull, and I would say that uninspired would be the word that I would use for the exterior, particularly the transom design.

Without being innovative their also recent 430 looked comparatively a lot better to me.

This is the yanchtingWorld movie of that sail test:

Arcona 410 Video - YouTube

.....


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## PCP

I am going to post about a beautiful boat, a boat that I would like to own, a classic boat with a modern hull.

Off course modern because it has a bulbed keel to improve weight, but with long overhangs that does not serve any purpose...except an aesthetically one and that are entirely justified...the boat would not make sense without them and who cares about functionalism and that maxim: form follows function. That form only follows a long forgotten rule that had little to do with boat performance

The boat, as the others from Fairlie, is designed by Paul Spooner and it is made in a semi custom way. Take a look at this *wonderful movie *that among other things explain why these boats have to be expensive.

Fairlie 55 -Timelapse.mov - YouTube

The boat is a 55ft boat and Farlie is the shipyard that makes them, as its own boats since this company mainly restores classics.

This Fairlie 55 as just been launched.
































































One of the big downside of these boats are its small interior dimension. This is a 55ft boat, but the interior has the space of a modern 40ft boat interior.





































But the insurmountable problem with a boat like this one, at least for most of us, it is its price. This type of boat is very very expensive, this one costs 1 172 000€.

If we still sailed in boats like these there would very few that could afford a cruiser with space for all the family

*They say about the boat:

Designed for both cruising and racing, this magnificent yacht reflects the style and quality of a golden age of yachting. This coupled with a modern underwater body and rig, creates a yacht which is as easy to handle as any modern yacht on the market today. She will be admired and envied in any marina or anchorage and with her performance rig and sails will show many of her closest rivals a clean pair of heels.

The hull is constructed from a laminated mahogany backbone and frames, with a layer of Douglas fir strip planking, two layers of mahogany veneers laid at 45 degrees and one layer fore & aft. The entire structure is laminated using West System Epoxy Resin and is finally covered with two layers of GRP for protection.

The deck is built from a layer of marine plywood grooved on the underside, and laid with 12mm thick, swept teak decking with a varnished king plank, covering boards and toe rail.

The ultra-modern fin and bulb keel has an SG cast iron fin and a lead bulb and is assembled and bolted through the hull structure. The spade rudder is a laminated plywood blade with a stainless steel shaft.

The hull is painted with an Awlgrip / International urethane paint system on the topsides and a hard antifouling.

The Fairlie 55, Spirit of Tradition Yacht

LOA - 16.8m
Lwl - 11.64m
Bmax - 3.5m
draft - 2.3/2.6m
Displacement - 10.1t
Sail Area - 117 sq m
Balast - 40%
On deck the varnish work will be Epiphanes Gloss Varnish.*

*Take a look at this beautiful movie*:

Fairlie 55 - Sailing in the Solent.mov - YouTube

......


----------



## PCP

After the beautiful Fairlie 55 let's have a look at the Solaris 44, that was lunched some months ago. The Solaris 44 is also a beautiful boat with the best finish you can find on modern production boats a boat with a smaller LOA, a much bigger interior and considerably faster specially downwind.

Both boats have about the same weight and the same sail area but the LWL of the Solaris is almost 2 meters longer and it will be much more easily driven to hull speed and off course it will plan while the Fairlie will dig into the water and make a big wave. I believe that with very weak winds the match should be very close. The Fairlie is also a fast boat handicapped by its downwind performance and much shorter LWL.

The Solaris 44 is designed by Soto Acebal one of the more creative among contemporary NA, the one that had designed the Soto 40.

The Solaris is not an inexpensive boat, it is one of the most expensive among production boats. It costs about 50% more than a First 45 or a Salona 44. however it has much more interior space than the Farlie 55.... and it will cost almost half the price

















































































































































And one movies from the Yachtingworld sailtest :

Solaris ONE 44 - YouTube

....


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## PCP

*Mylius 14E55*

He have recentey talked about the 11m Mylius, well, its big brother is making a show at the "Middle of the Sea" race, the Med classic.

The boat is now in 17th place, just behind a VOR60 and ahead of a X 44 that is making also a great race.

Rolex Middle Sea Race: Welcome

Take a look at the Mylius 14E55

Mylius 14E55 March 2008 - YouTube

This is also an interesting race to compare, on variable wind situations, the performance of the 40class racing boats (several racing) with traditional 40ft performance cruisers, like the First 40, Grand Soleil 40 or J 122.

Rolex Middle Sea Race


----------



## Arpegecap

I have a question about all these new boats. What happened to the extruded aluminum toe rail? Everyone seems to have gone to teak. No place to hook a snatch block or a preventer. Why?


----------



## PCP

Arpegecap said:


> I have a question about all these new boats. What happened to the extruded aluminum toe rail? Everyone seems to have gone to teak. No place to hook a snatch block or a preventer. Why?


Well, for the same reason these ones had not one:










They are ugly and ruin the looks of a boat

Delphia was the last one to use them but is not using them anymore on the new boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Well some say this thread is about boat porn. All is relative but some of the boats posted here while beautiful are just dream boats for all of us. This post is not about a dream boat for anybody. This boat, if you make it yourself, will cost less than the discount that Hanse is offering in the Hanse 400.

If you have some minimal skill you can just buy the plans and make it in the garage. It is designed for that and easiest to build it is hard to find, besides the ones that build the boat have a very flexible arrangement, they can send you what you want, including only the most difficult part to build.

This boat is not only designed to be easy to build but also to be fast, seaworthy, to carry a lot of load and to be easily transportable. It is a dream boat only if you are to lazy

Look how it goes (it does not look like a small boat, looking at the speed):

hublot-avion.MOV - YouTube

Have a better look at the boat:

Aviateur 5,70 : le renouveau du Muscadet

It is designed by Heric Henseval, it has only 5.7m and a lifting keel with all the ballast on a bulb and I love it

*CHARACTERISTICS:

Building material: 9mm thick. marine plywood, glass fiber and epoxy resin.
Hull lenght: 5,70 m
Lenght at DWL: 5,70 m
Lenght over all, LOA: 5,95 m
Beam max. : 2,50 m
Beam (max) at DWL : 1,9 m
Fwd freeboard: 0,95 m
Aft freeboard: 0,81 m
Draft min./max.0,66 m / 1,31 m
Retractable keel with tackle (easy and simple system)
Lenght from DWL to the head of the mast: 8,88 m
Engine: outboard from 2 HP to 6 HP
Mainsail Area: 14,4m2
Solent Area: 8,09m2
Total Area to windward: 22,5m2
Spinnaker Area (asymetrical): 27m2
Sliding integrated pool (through the watertight anchor locker)
Displacement: 625 kg
Déplacement (half loading) 837.5 kg
Déplacement (full loading) 1050 kg
CAN BE WELL LOADED FOR BIG NAVIGATIONS
Keel ballast: 230kg with 200kg of bulb
Unsinkable with flotation foam under berthes
Transportable
Beachable
European Conception Category: C3 D4

Aviateur 5,70m is a very stiff boat with a big interior volume.
*










http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy322/Paulo_Carvalho/ttt.jpg[/IMG
]

[IMG]http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy322/Paulo_Carvalho/image.jpg








































































































































Well, if you don't have the money for this one or just find it too big, why not a smaller one?

This one was the first little one made by the same architect, the Souriceau, it has 4.75m:

Souriceau : la micro-croisière hauturière (video)






For more information and prices:

AVIATEUR 5.70m - hensevalyd-englishs jimdo page!


----------



## G1000

or maybe aluminium Mini 650 precut kit for 12k EUR?


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> or maybe aluminium Mini 650 precut kit for 12k EUR?


Hi G!

It is the first time you post about a boat I never heard of.

Thanks for this one. It is not yet a boat, just a project and I don't think they have yet started one even if they give a budget.

For racing an aluminum one would not make sense because it is heavier than the plywood or fiberglass ones, even considering the weight they give, that seems a bit optimistic to me.

For cruising would be alright but I would bet that the owner of a mini would like to make one or two races a year and besides aluminum is a very bad insulator so you would have to put some more money in a solution.

12k€ does not seem too much, but welding an aluminum boat is a complicated business even for professionals. I find their final price for a complete boat with head and a small galley even better: 25000€
































































The boat comes from a very young designer that is starting his carer :

Mini 650 Balipi sail Boat

*Technical data:

(m)
Length OA 6,5
Length WL 6,5
Beam OA 3
Beam WL 
Depth 2
Draft 12
Freeboard 0,8
Ballast: (Kg) 450
Displacement (kg) 1150
description:

Construction of hull: multiple hard chine, full welded

Material of hull: Aluminum AlMg4.5 (5083)

Motor: NA

Fuel tank: NA*

*Navigation: Northstar. C-map

seating: 4

WC, kitchen

deck equipment: HARKEN

The first aluminum minitransat boat. Particulary strong. A little heavier than racing boat. Offer for sailing training, charter market, day recreational sailing. For fans of mini 6.50 class.*

Regards

Paulo


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## G1000

Paulo, that is quite a challenge to surprise you  Several years ago I was really obsessed with mini class, so still have some kind of links. Sure this alu not for racing, but I doubt you can race on Aviateur 5.70 too. Here is the place to go for a supercharged one Tocatec 650


----------



## Chimbatete

Interesting Sailboat

Malango 9.99 (34 ft) check out the dinghy. Interior looks no worse than an RM










Visite guidée à bord du Malango 9.99 du Chantier idb Marine - YouTube


----------



## G1000

Some Solaris One 37 interior pictures. Indeed very nice boat. Any clue on price tag?


----------



## HMoll

*Interesting small boats*

Paulo,

Talking about boat porn and small boats, have you found any decent pictures and info about the RM1060 Performance version that was recently launched? They even improved cabin ventilation. I wonder if any other lessons learned went into the design. The perception is that the boat is an under-performer, having been so silent about the testing and numbers. But still, I find it interesting.

Hans


----------



## Faster

Interesting indeed.. looks like a fun ride with a lot of neat ideas.. spartan, but fun. Wonder if they'd build/engineer a fixed keel version?

Plenty of good images and info on their site.

http://www.idbmarine.com/gb/malango999.php



Chimbatete said:


> Interesting Sailboat
> 
> Malango 9.99 (34 ft) check out the dinghy. Interior looks no worse than an RM


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Interesting Sailboat
> 
> Malango 9.99 (34 ft) check out the dinghy. Interior looks no worse than an RM
> .....


Hi Chimbatete,

Thanks for posting!

Yes the Malango is a very nice boat but not with the same RM vocation. The RM is made for long range cruising, the Malango is more a day sailer and weekend cruiser, specially the one you have posted. The photo you have posted is not from the 9.99 but from the the first sailboat they have made, the smaller one, the 870.

The 9.99 is a bit more ambitious and it is, like the 870, a pleasure to sail. the 9.99 has two cabins while the 870 only has one. Like the 870, it has a huge cockpit but the interior space and storage are enough for coastal cruising. The boat has a very small tankage, to make it light and fun to sail, but with some modifications to increase the tankage this one can take a couple for long range cruising and even across the pond.

A very nice boat indeed, I would say, a sexy boat:





















































































































































































and this boat can really go fast. Look at the movie:

Sortie en mer à bord du Malango 999 - YouTube

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

Wow that is a head turner. Thats dinghy slot is just the icing. I was at the website and it seems that for the basic boat its 100k so figure 150k euros ready to sail that is nice.


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Some Solaris One 37 interior pictures. Indeed very nice boat. Any clue on price tag?


I have said that if somebody needs to ask the price it is not going to buy this boat

The price is just huge, 220500€ for the basic price with this specifications:

http://www.richardbaldwinyachts.com/pdf/solaris-one-37-specs.pdf

The specifications are good but nothing special. If you buy a Salona 38 with the performance, comfort and basic package you will get a boat with higher specifications for almost less 50000€.

For superior specifications I mean: Same mast brand but higher range model (three spreaders), rod on the rig (option on the Solaris), Carbon spinnaker pole (on the Solaris even the aluminium one is optional), stainless steel grid to take the forces of the shrouds and keel (on the Solaris, reinforcements in e glass fiber), Epoxy based resins (Solaris resins are not epoxy), three blade folding propeller (2 blade fixed one in the Solaris), Dracon sails (that can be upgraded), no sails included on the Solaris.

I bet that you can upgrade the Solaris to the Salona specifications but then the Solaris price would be a lot more than 220500€ and the difference to the Salona much bigger. In fact, now that difference is bigger because Salona is offering an introductory price on the 38 and that means about less 30 000€ on that Salona upgrated version, and that means a difference of 80000€ to a lower specification Solaris 37.

That was what I mean. You don't buy a Solaris for the price or specifications but out of passion and for its impeccable finish

Regarding the Solaris 37 I have to say that besides the price I also don't like the interior, I mean those fashionable white cabinets that are trendy on this moment in Italy (they are similar to the ones from the new CS 39). The problem with fashions is that they go away rely quick and you end up with a boat out of fashion in no time I prefer the wood interior of the Salona (in what regards design) even if I am sure they can put you wood cabinets, as on previous Solaris models but that, I am sure, it will mean more money in extras

360 - Salona Yachts

Take a look at what I mean. this is the new Solaris 37 interior:










This is the interior of a bigger Solaris but with wood:










Some more photos of the Solaris 37:























































The Solais 37 is a very beautiful boat and a boat that resembles a lot with the Salona 38, except that this one has the keel I want on the Salona and a slightly better designed transom (for my taste).

But on the other hand the Salona will be a lot faster: It was more 10m2 of sail area and weights less 800kg probably due to its epoxy based hull.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Talking about boat porn and small boats, have you found any decent pictures and info about the RM1060 Performance version that was recently launched? They even improved cabin ventilation. I wonder if any other lessons learned went into the design. The perception is that the boat is an under-performer, having been so silent about the testing and numbers. But still, I find it interesting.
> 
> Hans


Hi Hans!,

The boat sails very well. The performance was not what was expected since we expected a rocket and this is a cruising boat. Even if the performance cannot match the one from the Pogo 10.50 it is very good for a long range cruising boat of that size.

I believe that some youth problems related with a somewhat heavy and insensitive helm were already solved by now and they have just launched the performance version that I had talked about some posts back:




























That consists one a carbon mast with a single keel but two rudders and better sails (they don't talk about more sail area but it is possible that they just forget to mention it).

The Carbon mast is going to make an expensive boat even more expensive. The RM 1060, a 35ft was already more expensive than a Salona 38 and with this carbon mast and other mods it would probably sell at the same price of a Salona 41

For me the biggest problem of this boat is the price, that I find to high, but that's just my opinion.

Regarding the interior photos, the interior had not any alteration regarding the standard boat . I have already posted them on a previous post.

You can have a look at their site:

RM YACHTS | RM 1060

Some videos:

RM 1060 : la bande annonce de l'essai en vidéo - YouTube

vid2_rm1060.mp4 - YouTube

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> Interesting indeed.. looks like a fun ride with a lot of neat ideas.. spartan, but fun. Wonder if they'd build/engineer a fixed keel version?
> 
> Plenty of good images and info on their site.
> 
> Malango 9.99


Hi Faster!

That's funny that Chimbatete had posted about that boat. A six year's old boat comparison test between that boat and a much more older type of boat made me start a research that lead to a better look and comprehensions of boat design.

Six years ago I thought that all modern and fast boats should have a look and characteristics inspired by open class racers and then on this test between two day sailers with a dinghy garage, one inspired by solo ocean racers, the other looking old (a narrow boat), I was quite sure that the Malango would be much faster, specially downwind and then....it was just not so

After that I understood that things were not so simple as I thought and started to look for more information, a search that continue today, to understand in fast boats the relation of hull shapes and performance in different weather conditions.

When I have more time I will post about that test that was very complete, both boats at the same time in the water and tested in all sailing positions with 10 and 20K wind. Both boats had about the same weight and the same LWL.

The other boat was an older one, the Daydream 300:




























le Daydream 300

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

After Sweden yachts and Maxy yachts (Najad group) it is the time of another North European company to go under. This time it seems that it is the end for another company that have made many great boats: Finngulf.

I had the opportunity to say on this thread that their new boat, a remake of the 37, did not make much sense.










It looked old fashioned and the only alteration from the 37 seemed to be a a badly designed transom and the two wheel set-up on a lousy presentation

It seems that it was not only me that found that. The commands did not appear and they lost their only hope for recovering.

http://www.finngulf.com/binary/file/-/id/1/fid/251

They were in trouble and were already rescued but they have persisted in the same route, offering a similar product at the same price. That is just a bad policy and one that would normally fail.

I am afraid that the same is going to happen with Cabo Rico. They are in trouble, have been given some oxygen but they are not changing anything...so how do they expect to survive?

Has an opposite example, Dehler that was in trouble (bought by Hanse) modified the line of its boats (Dehler 41) lowered the prices and modified their production line with an huge reorganization. I don't know if they are going to succeed but at least they are trying the right way: Changing boat design and lowering prices.


----------



## PCP

Let's talk about that boat test between the Malango and the daydream, published 5 years ago by Voile and voiliers magazine. Have a look at the shape and both boat characteristics. They couldn't be more different in what regards shape hull even if the keels are similar:










The boats have about the same weight, almost the same LWL, the Daydream compensates its inferior form stability with a bigger B/D ratio, the Daydeam has a much better prismatic coefficient and therefore needs less sail (power) for the same speed.

The theoretical hull speed for both boats is 7.08 for the Malango and 7.12 for the Daydream, a negligible difference of less than 0.04K.

The sea had no waves, or very small waves.

With 10k wind:

Close to the wind: Malango - 3.8K ....... Daydream - 3.9K

Downwind with Spinnaker : Malango -5.3K........ Daydream - 5.3k
(bigger one on the Malango)

With 20k wind:

Close to the wind: Malango - 5.7K ............ ....Daydream - 5.7K

Downwind with Spinnaker : Malango -8.2/surf 10K........Daydream - 8.2/surf 10k
(bigger one on the Malango)

With engine:

Cruising speed: Malango - 4.8k ..........Daydream - 5.5k

Max speed: Malango - 7.1k ..........Daydream - 7.0k

Here the Malango had a 15hp yanmar and the Daydream a 19hp Volvo.

Regarding sailing those were at the time amazing results for me, results that now I can understand.

Assuming those two boats are optimized and very well designed, and I think they are this means:

That a narrow boat has an advantage upwind in weaker winds (I believe that with a 5K wind the difference would be much bigger) and that advantage can disappear in stronger winds, but for having the same performance the beamier boat has to carry more sail to overcome its superior prismatic coefficient. He can do that because that extra beam gives it a lot more hull stability and more power to carry more sail. However in weak and medium winds the narrow boat will heel less than the beamier boat.

That was not tested on that sail test, but comparative results taken from racing performance, indicates that these results are only valid on flat water. On stronger winds offshore you have waves and the wave drag of the narrow boat will be much smaller. On this situation (strong wind and waves) the narrow boat will be considerably faster and will pound a lot less.

Downwind you have a match here but I believe that if we were talking about 30k wind or more, the Malango would be considerably faster, being able to plan more easily. Not only more easily but with more control, with less lateral ballance (that big stern would have a damping effect).

Regarding the performance under engine I don't think that that 4hp difference is responsible for that big difference in cruising speed (we can see that the max speed is very close). The worse performance of very beamy sailboats under engine is a constant on this type of hull at half power. I guess that has a relation with its worse performance with light winds: That hull needs more power to be moved at slow speeds. At higher speeds, near hull speed and over the beamier hull can plan at lesser speed and makes less drag, the opposite than at slower speeds.

We are talking here about two almost extreme hull shapes, one very narrow and the other very beamy (and that's why I found amazing that the performance was so close). Those differences would be attenuated with a less narrow boat, giving different compromises, specially in what regards differences in planning and control downwind with stronger winds, heel of the boat, and induced drag on passing waves.


----------



## PCP

Some more information about that ongoing collection of information about hull performance and hull shape, from the "Middle of the sea race".

On this race participated several class 40 racing boats, that are performance upgraded Pogo 12,50: Same hull, but more righting moment (bulb at 3m), more sail, lighter and with water ballast.

There was not on this race any 40ft racer to compare (like the Ker 40) but I have noticed that, except on mostly downwind races like a transat, a ker 40 (or a similar less beamy modern racing boat) would be faster.

On the races that have a lo of upwind sailing with bad weather even fast-cruiser racers, like the First 40, can be faster than the class40 racers. Not on this one, but they have not stayed far:

The fastest class 40 was an Aquilaria that had made the race in 4 days 2 hours and 58m, the second was a Pogo 2 that had take more 5 minutes. The best 40ft cruiser racer was a J 122 that had taken more 3h and 35m. The second J 122 made it in 4 days 5h and 50m.

An Azuree 40, a fast 40ft cruiser designed having as model the 40class boats have done the race in 4D 21h and 20m, more 17 hours than the first J122. An older First 40.7, that is slower than the First 40 (there was none racing), made it in 4D 12h and 12m.

The Fastest was the 30m Maxi Esimit Europa 2 (the ex Alfa Romeu with an ugly painting ) with 2 Days 13 h and 25m.

Some results of other performance cruisers that we had talked about on this thread:

Swan 80 - 3D 12h 34m

Ker 53 - 3D 17h 22m

Xp 65 - 3D 21h 21m

Shipman 63 - 3D 22h 33m

Mylius 14E55 - 4D 1h 22m

XP 44 - 4D 3h 36m

Take a look at the movies, some beautiful boats out there...and some nasty weather too

Rolex Middle Sea Race: Welcome

Rolex Middle Sea Race 2011 Pre Race with Kurt Arrigo - YouTube






Rolex middle sea race 2011 - YouTube


----------



## PCP

Solaris one 37, the movie from FareVela:

Solaris One 37 - YouTube


----------



## PCP

The "Middle sea race" has been raced many times in bad weather and several great movies had been made taking advantage of those situations.

I will post two, one with a big boat, other with a small boat, both great sailboats that can take a gale and keep on sailing, a Cookson 50 and a Dehler 34. Great boats, great images

Middle sea Race 2007 Cippa Lippa - YouTube

Rolex Middle Sea Race - Major Squall on a Dehler 34 - YouTube


----------



## PCP

If I won the lottery and could have a custom boat designed the way I wanted it, I would have no problem choosing the Naval Architect, it would be Jason Ker.

Ker is a relatively young NA with an amazing short career full of racing success and it is amazing that the big boat companies only know start to ask for its services for design performance cruising boats. The first one was Sydney yachts and the beautiful new 37 and 4dfts are his work, then Southerly with the Southetly 46RS and more recently Salona that had the new keel for the Salona 38 and the new Salona 60 designed by him.

All beautiful fast and seaworthy boats.

http://salonayachts1.mmksystems.com/documents/Salona 60 brochure.pdf

Some days ago on the Middle sea race one of his boats a 2008 designed Ker 53, a cruiser racer just managed incredible results:

The boat finished the race in 3d 17h and 22m, while a bigger racing VOR60 made it only 10m faster and a VOR70 only gained about 6 hours.

Let's look at that boat, that is not a naked racer but actually has a very nice interior :




































































































They say about the boat:

A high-tech and eye-catching rocket-ship of 16.00 meters in length, using America's Cup technology in design, engineering and construction for competitive racing under IRC. At the same time easy to sail short handed.

*The best of two worlds. To sail fast. And to live easy.*

....The KER53 is designed employing current America´s Cup technology and 
knowledge. Crafted from vacuum-bagged Carbon/Epoxy with a lightweight 
closed-cell core foam sandwich construction it is very strong, light, stiff and 
designed to ABS Rules for Offshore Yachts and optimised for the IRC Rule.

Principal Dimensions:

• length overall, hull ........................... 16.00 m 
• beam moulded ................................ 4.20 m 
• draft ................................... 3.40 m 
• displacement, appr. ........................ . 10.20 tonnes 
• bulb weight, appr. ........................... 5.00 tonnes

Principal sail areas:

upwind ................................ approx. 170m2
spinnaker (asym.) approx. 280m2
rig dimensions

Apart from the 3.40 m pure-performance version, a fixed keel with a draft of only 2.90m has been created for No. 01 which will also meet the extremely high demands of the successful designer, fine tuned with the weight (depending on the equipment), the FORMULA-France rigging and the sails design. Jason expects some slight advantages with this keel version for offshore and in long-distance conditions.

A 3rd version, external lifting keel with 2.60 to 3.60m draft, will round off the keel program for the future of the KER53 C/R.

Another glance through the keyhole of the design office? *At 20 kn TWS and 135° TWA the speedo shows 14,08 kn*

...the interior is constructed in lightweight carbon/foam sandwich panels, with particular attention to the finish and fit of all the furniture in keeping with the standards of a high quality cruiser/racer.

Large coachroof windows and opening hatches allow for light and fresh air to 
circulate through the entire interior. Hull windows in the saloon deliver 
additional light and panoramic views of the oceanscape from the comfort of the saloon.

...The boat will be equipped with push button controls for the mainsail, vang, outhaul and backstay. These can be easily operated by the helmsman using high performance hydraulic system for fast, easy and accurate trimming.

* FAST. AND EASY.*

Well, unlike many advertised boats that promise top performance with a luxurious interior, this one actually delivers what it is promised: An incredibly fast boat with a good cruising interior


----------



## Chimbatete

Hi Paulo,

That is a very interesting comparative between the Daysailer and the Malango. Not expected and not so good for the proponents of more beamy modern hulls. Id like to know more details.

Is it fair to say that in light winds, the more classic narrow hulls like an e33 daysailer (love the boat) would beat the pogo 10.50 or First 30 upwind? and even downwind?? 

Remember I'm new to this asking these weird questions.


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> Half surprise from Halber-Rassy: What seemed to be an isolated experience with the 372 has turning now on a new line. HR is making a new aft cockpit boat, the HR 412.
> 
> On HR, Only boats smaller than 37ft were aft cockpit boats, the offshore HR were basically center cockpit boats but now, with the sells from the 37 center cockpit much worse than the ones from the 372 (aft cockpit) and losing sales to the new line of cruising boats from X yachts, HR decided to offer a 41ft boat with an aft cockpit. The 40ft center cockpit boat will be maintained.
> 
> This boat is also the first beamy HR: 4.11m. The old center cockpit 40ft had only 3.82m.
> 
> The boat share similar characteristics with the XC-42 but it seems to me that the XC has a more modern design and surprisingly a bit better D/B ratio.
> 
> Anyway, a more modern and good looking HR is always good news. The basic price of the new boat will be around: 435 000 €


Paulo,
I think the reasoning for HR to build a larger 372, was not out of pressure by X yachts, but simply dictated by the immense success of the 372. In 2 years, HR built more than 70 HR372's. I would be interrested how many XC 38's have been built.
I recently had the opportunity to crew on the delivery of a HR 372 from Connecticut to the Annapolis Show. The performance, seaworthiness, and layout/ functionality down below is about as perfect as I could imagine. Designed with sailing and comfortable life aboard in mind.
As far as performance, we knocked off about 200 nm a day, in a combination of motoring, sailing and motor-sailing. Hard on the wind, we clocked about 6kn in 10kn wind, and I saw the speed climb to above 8 kn in 14 kn wind on a beam reach. Cruising World did a testsail after the Show, in 15-20kn wind, we'll see what they have to say.
The problem for me: This trip has made it very hard to appreciate affordable production boats ( with the sticker: "starting at" )at the Annapolis Show, as the HR 372 really set the bar for what I am personally looking for in a vessel.
I wonder where Mega Millions Lottery jackpot is today......
Bernd


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> That is a very interesting comparative between the Daysailer and the Malango. Not expected and not so good for the proponents of more beamy modern hulls. Id like to know more details.
> 
> Is it fair to say that in light winds, the more classic narrow hulls like an e33 daysailer (love the boat) would beat the pogo 10.50 or First 30 upwind? and even downwind??
> 
> Remember I'm new to this asking these weird questions.


Reality is what it is and each kind of hull has advantages, and one of them is interior space. For cruising a hull as narrow as the one from daydream would have very little interior space.

Regarding speed with light wind, a narrow boat, assuming equal displacement and similar keel will need less power to sail at the same same speed, comparing with a beamier boat.

The beamier boat compensates this superior need of power with a superior righting moment given by its much superior form stability (the necessary bigger B/D of the narrow boat is normally not enough to compensate that) and with enough wind the extra power and extra sail can compensate that superior need.

But in light wind sometimes the bigger sails just cannot generate the extra power to match the lesser needs of the narrow boat and that's what has happened on that boat test.

Regarding boat design it is very difficult, for the same length, to have a narrow cruiser with the same displacement that have a beamy cruiser, like the ones that have its form derived from open boats. The Open type boat has a lot of stability coming from form stability while the narrower boat has to compensate the diference with more ballast... and lead is heavy

Compare for instance the 1.9T of ballast of a Pogo 12.50 with the 3.3T of ballast that has a First 40. Obviously the Pogo is a lighter boat but that does not mean that it will be always faster. Note that the Pogo has, among that type of boats, a big B/D ratio.

Each boat design is a different compromise between many things, from rocker, prismatic coefficient to hull stability passing for B/D, weight and many more variables. Even when performance is what matters, different variables give boats that are better under some conditions or some sail points and worse in others.

There is no doubt that Open class type boats are better solo downwind because they give the extra stability that makes them more easily exploited solo while giving the extra power to compensate their big prismatic coefficient that gives more drag to the boat.

It is not by accident that if you compare a Open 40, the best type to sail upwind solo, with the fastest type of boats to sail offshore in mixed conditions, like the Ker 40, the Soto 40 or the Farr 400, you will find that while these share many similarities between them, they are all very different from the Open boat or a Class 40 (Pogo) in what regards beam and B/D ratio.

The Ker and company are in those mixed conditions much faster than a class 40, but also more difficult to sail, specially downwind.

There is no easy answer or perfect performance cruiser and each one has its particular blend of strong and weaker points, more or less adapted to solo sailing, more or less fast upwind or downwind, passing better waves or pounding more and normally what makes one thing better makes other worse.

For instance, on that last race that I was talking about an Azuree 40, a performance cruiser I have posted about on this thread, a boat that shares many characteristics with the Pogo 12.50, lost about 17 hours for the fastest j 122 ( one that was really fast since he won in compensated) and 5 hours to an older First 40.7 (that is slower than the "new First" 40), both more traditional performance cruisers. If this race was instead of a race with variable winds, a Transat, with most of the time with downwind sailing, I think the results would be the opposite.

The choice is for each sailor, and the boat I would chose would not be the boat another sailor would chose. This thread is not about a particular type of boat but about all types of good sailboats and about the knowledge needed for choosing the one that fits each particular sailor.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

Thanks Paulo that was great I get the gist.

Question. When youre talking about Open class boat (wide beams) and their stability, you are talking about initial stability right? So lets say in a race of variable winds, wouldnt boats like the Luffes and Salonas have the advantage because they are faster in light winds and have better secondary stability in rough waters? 

Only thing I can think a boat like the pogo having an advantage is on a run in moderately strong winds. Am I wrong? Of course there are exceptions like the Opium which can do 8kts upwind on 8kt TWS.


----------



## Faster

So.... plumb bows, open transoms, max beam aft, and now 'chines'....

Style or substance????


----------



## estaban

PCP said:


> Do you have heard about the DSS (Dynamic Stability System)?
> Well, that can be a crazy idea but it works. they have tried it on the Wally 94 Magic Carpet (retrofitted) and the results confirm the tank testing results:
> 
> *120 degree True Wind Angle (TWA) - performance summary:*
> 
> Percentage performance increase at 120' TWA delivered by DSS is from 1.2% at 6knots of wind speed to 44.2% at 25 knots of wind speed
> 
> This equates to being 0.14knots faster at 6 knots wind speed and 7 knots faster at 25knots wind speed
> 
> The DSS powered Magic Carpet is always faster than the standard Magic Carpet


I think you will find that DSS was in fact not fitted to the boat and the above, as well as the other utterly amazing DSS performance claims for the Wally, is out of a computer only.

To me it seems that the presentation is written where a person easily would be led to think it had been fitted to the boat. I thought so on first reading. One has to look closely to see otherwise. But it does not actually say it was ever fitted let alone sailed, there is no evidence I can find anywhere that it was, and in the "Technical process of data generation" section there is nothing about actually fitting it to this boat, but there is reference to computer generation.

Their wording should be more like, "According to our model Magic Carpet would be faster with DSS."


----------



## Chimbatete

Faster said:


> So.... plumb bows, open transoms, max beam aft, and now 'chines'....
> 
> Style or substance????


Style is in the eye of the beholder just because I find Alerions (classic but modern underbody) beautiful. Same goes for the Danish offerings such as Faurbys, Luffes.

It is more the performance that concerns a person that does regattas and weeknight races and it seems like these wide boats arent the way to go for that application (upwind performance).

Not even sure if they are the ones to go for long distance races because Paulo already mentioned about a Beneteau winning the Sydney Hobart. I guess if its a predominantly downwind race, then the Pogos, JPKs would be preferred.


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> So.... plumb bows, open transoms, max beam aft, and now 'chines'....
> 
> Style or substance????


Certainly substance. Style has nothing to do with race boats...except when they are designed to a handicap rule.

The first racing boat with chines had chines because it was a plywood boat (class 40). The NA (Lucas) said that the chines were there to improve performance. I thought that the guy was nuts...but the boat turned out to be a winner (and he proved he was right) and in no time the racing fiberglass hulls had also chines.

Plumb bows have to do with maximization of the LWL, open transoms with not having more weight when it serves no purpose, to give more space to the crew and also to evacuate quickly the water from the cockpit. The transom brought back is common to all modern race boats that are not subjected to a handicap rule, narrow and beamy and has to do with better control downwind and more hull form stability without increasing beam.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> ......
> 
> Question. When youre talking about Open class boat (wide beams) and their stability, you are talking about initial stability right? So lets say in a race of variable winds, wouldnt boats like the Luffes and Salonas have the advantage because they are faster in light winds and have better secondary stability in rough waters?
> 
> Only thing I can think a boat like the pogo having an advantage is on a run in moderately strong winds. Am I wrong? Of course there are exceptions like the Opium which can do 8kts upwind on 8kt TWS.


Hei! Hei! Actually the Pogo 12.50 is faster than the Opium 39

By secondary stability I guess you are talking a bout reserve stability? That one is not used for sailing, in good or bad weather, just for surviving when things are really very bad.

I hate to talk about what I don't have direct information and I have never saw results of a Pogo 12.50 or Opium 39 racing offshore against more common types of performance cruisers. The Opium 39 had won the first leg of a solo race but 35ft and 32ft narrower boats had similar performances (A 35 and SF 32).

The results I can compare are from the racing version of Pogo, the 40class race boat, a much faster boat and even so in difficult races upwind some more traditional performance cruisers can be faster or at leas as fast.

The conditions were a very good traditional performance cruiser can do better is upwind in bad weather, against waves, were the wave drag brakes more the beamy class 40.

But we are forgetting an important thing here: Money. It is more cheaper to made a top performance boat if it is a beamier one, with lots of initial stability.

Top performers with a high B/D ratio, like the Ker 37, j122, Santa Cruz 37 or King 40 are expensive boats. The huge ballast on the bulb of those boats demands a very strong structure to distribute the forces by the hull and as the boat has lots of weight in lead, it has to have a lighter stronger and very expensive hull to compensate the weight that is "lost" in ballast, comparing with a beamier boat.

Pogo 12.50 and Opium 39 offers very good performance at a very good price....I know, you are going to say that the First 40 is inexpensive. I am sure the performance one is less expensive than the boats I have mentioned but the one that they sell cheaply is the CR. They have a true performance boat but I don't know the price and they don't make it public. The differences are many. Just for starting the CR as a monolithic hull, the performance first has a cored hull, has all true performance boats

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

Paulo have you posted the Aquila RP45. Sorry if you have and sorry i dont know how to make image smaller.

Beautiful and versatile racer cruiser. It looks like a missile but it has a nice spacious interior.


----------



## Chimbatete

PCP said:


> Hei! Hei! Actually the Pogo 12.50 is faster than the Opium 39
> 
> By secondary stability I guess you are talking a bout reserve stability? That one is not used for sailing, in good or bad weather, just for surviving when things are really very bad.
> 
> I hate to talk about what I don't have direct information and I have never saw results of a Pogo 12.50 or Opium 39 racing offshore against more common types of performance cruisers. The Opium 39 had won the first leg of a solo race but 35ft and 32ft narrower boats had similar performances (A 35 and SF 32).
> 
> The results I can compare are from the racing version of Pogo, the 40class race boat, a much faster boat and even so in difficult races upwind some more traditional performance cruisers can be faster or at leas as fast.
> 
> The conditions were a very good traditional performance cruiser can do better is upwind in bad weather, against waves, were the wave drag brakes more the beamy class 40.
> 
> But we are forgetting an important thing here: Money. It is more cheaper to made a top performance boat if it is a beamier one, with lots of initial stability.
> 
> Top performers with a high B/D ratio, like the Ker 37, j122, Santa Cruz 37 or King 40 are expensive boats. The huge ballast on the bulb of those boats demands a very strong structure to distribute the forces by the hull and as the boat has lots of weight in lead, it has to have a lighter stronger and very expensive hull to compensate the weight that is "lost" in ballast, comparing with a beamier boat.
> 
> Pogo 12.50 and Opium 39 offers very good performance at a very good price....I know, you are going to say that the First 40 is inexpensive. I am sure the performance one is less expensive than the boats I have mentioned but the one that they sell cheaply is the CR. They have a true performance boat but I don't know the price and they don't make it public. The differences are many. Just for starting the CR as a monolithic hull, the performance first has a cored hull, has all true performance boats
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


:laugher I saw a older thread I think from a different forum where people were arguing adamantly that Pogos (beamy boats) are downwind boats and would not be any good upwind. If they can point and do 8-9kts, thats not a purely downwind boat.

Yes it is about money but I think that for 99% of people (not the 1%) who likes to race but not cross oceans yet wants a cozy interiors and something affordable, its boats like the Elans an Salonas that offer the best bang for buck. The only issue I really see with these eastern euro boats are the quality of construction and how they'll hold up over time.


----------



## PCP

estaban said:


> I think you will find that DSS was in fact not fitted to the boat and the above, as well as the other utterly amazing DSS performance claims for the Wally, is out of a computer only.
> 
> To me it seems that the presentation is written where a person easily would be led to think it had been fitted to the boat. I thought so on first reading. One has to look closely to see otherwise. But it does not actually say it was ever fitted let alone sailed, there is no evidence I can find anywhere that it was, and in the "Technical process of data generation" section there is nothing about actually fitting it to this boat, but there is reference to computer generation.
> 
> Their wording should be more like, "According to our model Magic Carpet would be faster with DSS."


Yes, I think you are right. If a Wally or a big boat was equipped with that system it would be big news and I never have heard about it.

However they have said on Wally.com:

*Wally forms technological partnership with Dynamic Stability Systems (DSS)
This innovative system is based on hydrodynamic foils that slide through the hull increasing performance and stability, improving comfort, reducing displacement and draft.

After having tested DSS and being the first company to try it, Wally immediately adopted it because it is very effective and at the same time simple and safe, without affecting the interior volumes like other 
systems to improve stability do.

Wally R&D and DSS have been working closely over two years to develop a new 150 footer (45 meter), a new 100 footer (30 meter) as well as the retrofit of an existing Wally 94.

This technological collaboration has produced breakthrough projects perfectly reflecting the Wally concept to have simple, fast, stylish, safe and comfortable super yachts. *

But that was back in 2008 and I cannot find anything in their site today.

Well the 150ft was beautiful


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## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Paulo have you posted the Aquila RP45. Sorry if you have and sorry i dont know how to make image smaller.
> 
> Beautiful and versatile racer cruiser. It looks like a missile but it has a nice spacious interior.


Very nice boat. I would love to know the ballast but I cannot find it on their information, but it looks like of one of those boats I was talking about, except this one has a racing interior even if they talk about cruising.

The price looks great, of course the almost naked interior helps and the fact that it is made in China too.

Of course you have to add to that price the transport from China and that is not going to be cheap.

On that big photo it looks a beamy boat because the beam is brought aft.

Well it is not a narrow boat but also not a beamy boat by modern standards. The Aquila has 45ft and a 4.20m beam while a Pogo with 40ft has 4.50m

Actually the Aquila has the same beam as the First 45 even if does not look like, because the beam is brought much more aft:










Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Nice video about the preparation of the Hamburg boat show, one of the big European ones.

Messe: Die Hanseboot macht sich landfein - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE

On the first image we can see an M34 (made by Archambault for the tour the France), we can see also a Solaris 37, a J 108 a Saare 38, an Heol 7.4 and of course the fleet of Benetaus, Hanse and Halberg Rassy, but most of all they went to sail an Opus 68 (that will be on the floating exposition at the Hamburgh port) a new cruiser designed by Bill Dixon with an amazingly beautiful and creative interior.

http://www.alvkintscher.de/fileadmi...n/OPUS/OPUS_68/Konzept/Designer_statement.pdf

lebensraeume-gestalten.de

.....


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> ......
> Yes it is about money but I think that for 99% of people (not the 1%) who likes to race but not cross oceans yet wants a cozy interiors and something affordable, its boats like the Elans an Salonas that offer the best bang for buck. The only issue I really see with these eastern euro boats are the quality of construction and how they'll hold up over time.




I bet you don't know that many French boats are built in Poland and that the first Elan sailboat was built back in 1962. For 10 years they have built small One Design racing boats: Flying Junior, Racing Europe S-430, S425 and S-375. The First cruising boat was built in 1972.

In 1984 an Elan 31 won the production boat prize at the Half Ton World Championship at Marstrand in Sweden.

Take a look at the Yacht world and you will find 25 year old boats that still maintain a good value.

1988 Elan 43 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Regarding Salona it is another story, it only makes boats since 2002 but it is part of a big multinational company specialized in Plastics ans fiberglass, the AD plastics, founded in 1952. The company makes high quality components for many Industries including auto industry and among their clients are GM, Volvo and Fiat.

Regarding build techniques and materials, you don't won European championships and many European National championships without a quality product nor do you won the European boat of the year trophy (2007).

I have been two times at the factory and I have been sufficiently impressed to think about the possibility of buying one of their boats. Regarding building techniques they use the most modern that boat mass market has to offer. Other brands offer similar building techniques and materials but at a much bigger price.

Salona Yachts - Menu 1

For instance, they use on their boats a stainless steel frame to redistribute the loads of the rig and keel. Other boats have it but they are much more expensive boats like Luffe, X-Yachts, Grand Soleil or Arcona. On the 38 they have gone one step further in achieving maximum stiffness and durability of the boat by adding layers of carbon fibre on carefully analyzed areas of hull inner liner to obtain equilibrium of stainless steel structure and inner liner attached to it.

*The slamming zone of the boat has been built a single skin composite in order to avoid shear failure of core material under the heavy loads. That area is additionally reinforced with layers of triaxial E-glass fabric.

The use of transparent gel coat and vinilester epoxy resin during the vacuum infusion of the hull is another step towards the superior hull strength and durabilty.

The deck is sandwich built with a structural design incorporating a ceiling inner liner to better withstand high longitudinal and transverse loads.

Aft and bow bulkheads are completely watertight, thus preventing the possibility of water intrusion in case the exposed parts of the boat (bow and stern) are damaged. Due to strong sandwich construction these bulkheads add extra strength and safety, preserving the weight at the same time. *

http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/PR_Salona38.pdf

I may be wrong, as everybody, but besides being a good sail boat with a good interior the main reason that has me interested in the Salona 38 is its built quality and strength. As I have said, I could find similar products, for instance in the X yachts, but at a price I cannot afford.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Paulo,
> I think the reasoning for HR to build a larger 372, was not out of pressure by X yachts, but simply dictated by the immense success of the 372. In 2 years, HR built more than 70 HR372's. I would be interrested how many XC 38's have been built.
> 
> *I recently had the opportunity to crew on the delivery of a HR 372 from Connecticut to the Annapolis Show. The performance, seaworthiness, and layout/ functionality down below is about as perfect as I could imagine. Designed with sailing and comfortable life aboard in mind.
> *
> As far as performance, we knocked off about 200 nm a day, in a combination of motoring, sailing and motor-sailing. Hard on the wind, we clocked about 6kn in 10kn wind, and I saw the speed climb to above 8 kn in 14 kn wind on a beam reach. Cruising World did a testsail after the Show, in 15-20kn wind, we'll see what they have to say.
> The problem for me: This trip has made it very hard to appreciate affordable production boats ( with the sticker: "starting at" )at the Annapolis Show, as the HR 372 really set the bar for what I am personally looking for in a vessel.
> I wonder where Mega Millions Lottery jackpot is today......
> Bernd


Bernd, I said it was for two reasons: because the 372 was selling well while the 37 center cockpit, that they had maintained on their line, almost did not sell and because while HR only had the 372 on their line of aft cruising faster boats, X yachts had a full line of cruisers (38 - 42- 45- 50) deigned with similar characteristics of the 372. And also because all Xc cruising line of boats were selling very well, taking clients away from HR.

Xc cruising boats and Halberg Rassy share the same market segment. XC were more modern and faster boats and what the 372 and its sells showed to HR (as well as the good results from XC yachts) was that sailors wanted more modern boats and HR got the message and is not losing time. Now it will have a new aft 40ft and in no time it will be a full range.

In some time I will bet that HR is going to finish with center cockpit range boats till 45 or 50 ft boat. The market is the king and center cockpit boats are selling less

The Xc 38 is very similar to the HR 372 but curiously a more stiff and even more seaworthy boat. The HR has a B/D ratio of 0.386, the Xc38 an huge 0.424, it is more heavy (8500kg to 7500kg) but with more 7m2 of sail to compensate. Probably the sail performances is very close. The XC 38 is a more stiff boat not only by that bigger B/D ratio but also by a bit more beam (3.81m to 3.60). I am not saying the HR is not stiff, it is, but the XC 38 is really a model in that regard.

Two great boats. I had already posted about both on this thread and I am not surprised you loved the 372. You would also have loved the Xc 38 if you had the chance to sail one

http://www.x-yachts.com/seeems.asp?id=97150

http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Talking about beautiful boats it is difficult to find a more beautiful one:

Racing on the J Class Sloop Velsheda on Vimeo

Even if it takes 30 sailors to have it at full blast


----------



## estaban

PCP said:


> Perhaps you can leave that number ["Q": ballast*draft/weight] as an indicator of reserve stability and can get another formula to initial stability. That is not going to be an easy one because beam increases a lot initial stability. I have no idea of the factor but I am sure that a simple multiplication will not be enough (not even close) to account for the initial stability provided by the increase in beam.
> 
> To complicate things, more ballast and a lower ballast also increases initial stability even if in a much more moderate way.
> 
> To find a formula that will integrate all these factors will not be an easy task and will require a lot of work and a constant match with reality, using reference boat data to see if the formula works.


A problem which appears in all kinds of fields is that people are always wanting to reduce multidimensional things, or even curves, to single numbers. This fundamentally can't be done.

But that isn't to say we couldn't in principle anyway have a small set of numbers that would give us good approximation of the overall picture.

In practice, actually getting this from the manufacturers is probably beyond hope: one can't even get minimum sailing displacement let alone design sailing displacement in most instances.

But in a dream world if we had:

A) Resistance to heel at zero degrees, divided by sailing displacement
B) The designer's value for optimum heel angle at some condition, and resistance to heel at that angle, divided by SD
C) Resistance to heel at some standardized angle that people would find intuitive, say 45 degrees, divided by SD, and
D) Energies required to capsize from angles B and C, divided by SD

Then that would give a pretty good handle.

Chance of them all giving us these? None.

We can probably get A, and with curves we can figure D from any angle we like, if we had sailing displacement.

In the meantime, ballpark ideas are all that is possible probably though I've seen you've done a great deal of work on it.


----------



## bobperry

Ballast does not have much effect at all at very low heel angles.
Hull form has a lot to do with stability at low heel angles. I call that "initial stability".
What is this "optimum heel angle" stuff? Most designers will tell you its zero degrees. In any boat in order to get max performance you try and sail the boat upright. In very light air there can be advantages to heeling the boat as the sails fall into their natural shape and there can be a reduction in wetted surface. But this is only for very light air.
In order for a boat to have any righting moment is has to heel. You only get Rm when the Cb moves of to leeward and the VCG moves off to weather. So at zero degrees the boat is in an unstable state as Cb and VCG are lined up.


----------



## PCP

estaban said:


> ....
> 
> But in a dream world if we had:
> 
> A) Resistance to heel at zero degrees, divided by sailing displacement
> B) The designer's value for optimum heel angle at some condition, and resistance to heel at that angle, divided by SD
> C) Resistance to heel at some standardized angle that people would find intuitive, say 45 degrees, divided by SD, and
> D) Energies required to capsize from angles B and C, divided by SD
> 
> Then that would give a pretty good handle.
> 
> Chance of them all giving us these? None.
> 
> We can probably get A, and with curves we can figure D from any angle we like, if we had sailing displacement.
> 
> In the meantime, ballpark ideas are all that is possible probably though I've seen you've done a great deal of work on it.


Hi Estaban,

If you really insist and if they see that you would not buy the boat without stability data the factory will provide you with a stability curve made by the boat designer and used to certify the boat. It can be a GZ curve (arm length) or a RM curve (righting moment). You can turn a GZ curve in a RM curve multiplying each value by the boat displacement.

If you use a RM curve you can calculate all those values. The energy needed to capsize the boat from a certain point of heel is equal to the area behind the curve, from that point to the AVS (or LPS), the point were the righting moment is 0.

About the resistance to heel at 0º I don't understand what you mean. You have to explain that better. At 0º the boat is not heeled .

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Ballast does not have much effect at all at very low heel angles.
> Hull form has a lot to do with stability at low heel angles. I call that "initial stability".
> What is this "optimum heel angle" stuff? Most designers will tell you its zero degrees. In any boat in order to get max performance you try and sail the boat upright. In very light air there can be advantages to heeling the boat as the sails fall into their natural shape and there can be a reduction in wetted surface. But this is only for very light air.
> In order for a boat to have any righting moment is has to heel. You only get Rm when the Cb moves of to leeward and the VCG moves off to weather. So at zero degrees the boat is in an unstable state as Cb and VCG are lined up.


Bob, you are more than welcome to this thread

If you have followed it you have seen that it is about all types of sailing boats and their sailing characteristics and your expert opinion would be very valuable.

Regarding the information that is provided by the boat designers (GZ and RM curves) I have some doubts about its comparative value.

Can you give a look here and give me your opinion, I mean about the subject of the first post (for additional information you can look at the other posts from Polux on that thread):

Misleading stability - Yachting and Boating World Forums

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JohnRPollard

*Pacific Proa*

I hope this design meets the thread criteria for "Interesting Sailboats."

Test Sailing a Pacific Proa


----------



## estaban

bobperry said:


> What is this "optimum heel angle" stuff? Most designers will tell you its zero degrees. In any boat in order to get max performance you try and sail the boat upright.


I don't know how you say this. For skiffs and many dinghies, of course what you say is true, but I wasn't referring to them.

I am positive that you of all people know that a keelboat (unless crew weight is a large percentage of total weight) will in fact heel when there's much breeze, that for best speed one doesn't trim and adjust amount of sail carried to maintain overly-low let alone flat heel but rather best speed will be with some significant heel, that the boat can be designed to offer reduced wetted area when heeled and usually is designed to do this, that when shaping the hull for best speed while actually sailing this surely would have to be with heel taken into account, etc.

If you want I could find a specific boat for which a specific value has been given. But I am guessing that most likely it is now clear what I was meaning so there may be no need for a particular example (I'd really guess not as you have vast experience of course.)


----------



## estaban

PCP said:


> Hi Estaban,
> 
> If you really insist and if they see that you would not buy the boat without stability data the factory will provide you with a stability curve made by the boat designer and used to certify the boat.


Good to know, thank you!



> If you use a RM curve you can calculate all those values.


Yes, if having the curve. I was trying to think of ways to have a limited set of numbers to compare with. Agreed that the curve itself will always have more information.



> About the resistance to heel at 0º I don't understand what you mean. You have to explain that better. At 0º the boat is not heeled .


I wrote it horribly, not according to what I was thinking. I was thinking of the derivative, the rate that stability increases from zero degrees: the slope of the curve. In other words, does stability increase only slowly as the boat begins heeling from zero degrees, or sharply? A single number could give a reasonably good picture here.


----------



## PCP

estaban said:


> I don't know how you say this. For skiffs and many dinghies, of course what you say is true, but I wasn't referring to them.
> 
> I am positive that you of all people know that a keelboat (unless crew weight is a large percentage of total weight) will in fact heel when there's much breeze, that for best speed one doesn't trim and adjust amount of sail carried to maintain overly-low let alone flat heel but rather best speed will be with some significant heel, that the boat can be designed to offer reduced wetted area when heeled and usually is designed to do this, that when shaping the hull for best speed while actually sailing this surely would have to be with heel taken into account, etc.
> 
> If you want I could find a specific boat for which a specific value has been given. But I am guessing that most likely it is now clear what I was meaning so there may be no need for a particular example (I'd really guess not as you have vast experience of course.)


Estaban, What Bob said is right (of course). What you are talking about is another thing: When the boat heels generates a righting moment, initially ballast counts very little for it and RM comes almost all from form stability but when the boat heels more and more, ballast starts to count on the RM.

Max righting moment normally happens around 60º and that means that it is at that point that the boat has more power to carry sails. We know that no boat sails well at 60º of heel and that it will sail faster at lower angles of heel.

Why? Because the drag is so much that will not compensate the more power (righting moment) that the boat can generate with all that heel.

What you are talking about is about the heel angle that represents the better compromise between power (RM) and drag. The heel point were the sailboat will sail faster.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

estaban said:


> ...
> 
> I wrote it horribly, not according to what I was thinking. I was thinking of the derivative, the rate that stability increases from zero degrees: the slope of the curve. In other words, does stability increase only slowly as the boat begins heeling from zero degrees, or sharply? A single number could give a reasonably good picture here.


Yes, I understand what you mean

You can see that on a GZ (or RM) curve and it is exactly as you say, a step curve indicates a boat that generates RM with small angles of heel. Multihulls have a very step GZ curve, so step that it don't look like a curve

Beamy boats have more steeper curves comparing with narrow boats but, providing they have an adequate RM to sail, they will have also a higher AVS and a smaller inverted stability.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## estaban

PCP said:


> What you are talking about is about the heel angle that represents the better compromise between power (RM) and drag. The heel point were the sailboat will sail faster.


That's right, that's exactly what I was talking about.

If a given boat, say a Finot-designed boat, stays flatter when sailed optimally (best speed for course and conditions) than some other boat, then even if total area under the curve is the same between it and another boat, it has a significant "head start" so to speak and in practice will require more energy to capsize.

Not more energy from zero degrees, but more energy from an angle hopefully similar to what the boat was at before the gust or wave, as the flatter-sailing boat "has more of the curve left."

As you say, it's not irrelevant how flat the boat will tend to stay in the first place. The number for a given condition when the boat is sailed properly is not zero. (Well for some conditions it will be zero. But for example, it's unlikely to be zero at say 20 knots TWS upwind.)

And for the given condition it can differ between boats, sometimes by quite a bit.

Your other considerations you were talking about are on different points than energy required to capsize beyond optimal heel (as opposed to beyond flat, which I think isn't as useful as the difference has already been used up) and I agree with what you're saying.

To summarize really briefly, what I was saying is that while it's impossible to reduce stability to a single number, a small set of chosen numbers could give a reasonable picture. I was trying to give examples of a small set.

The "Q" value posted earlier is I think a nice example of a single number that can give a guideline, but as you said back at that time, not the whole picture.


----------



## PCP

JohnRPollard said:


> I hope this design meets the thread criteria for "Interesting Sailboats."
> 
> Test Sailing a Pacific Proa


Hi John,

Certainly it meets and nothing had been posted yet about Proas. Thanks for posting it.

By the way do you know that Proa means in Portuguese and Spanish, Bow? Those boats are probably called like that because when the Spanish or Portuguese find the first native ones they found out they had two proas and no popa (stern).

That one looks particularly interesting.

Proas did never manage to get a grip on mass production cruising boats, i don't know why, perhaps because they sail in a different way.

On this site we can find a good explanation about the differences between a Proa and a Cat, advantages and disadvantages:

*Pacific Proa Advantages:

The Pacific proa gets advantages over the catamaran by using the same weight of materials (cost!) to create a significantly longer main hull with higher speed potential:

a longer hull is more easily driven for fast ocean passages and more appropriate to the scale of large seas offshore.

transferring up to 100% displacement to the single large leeward hull as the windward hull lifts results in smooth, comfortable speed with minimal wetted surface.

when pressed for maximum speed, the longer leeward hull with similar rig and no additional lateral stability (the ability to resist tipping over sideways) results in greater longitudinal stability than a catamaran. Instead of pitchpoling, the Pacific proa will roll gently onto the leeward pod .

a small, lifting hull to weather for stability is mechanically easier and lighter than connecting two hulls of equal size and weight (catamaran) or using "floats" of 100%+ buoyancy on either side (trimaran).

While modern materials and methods make structure less of an issue, the crossbeams on a Pacific proa are less stressed than a catamaran of similar displacement.

For the very same reasons, however, it is also true that the Pacific proa carries much less weight for it's length than a catamaran.*

*Catamaran Advantages:

The catamaran has broad flat transoms aft that carry weight well and reduce pitching; the proa is pointed at both ends.

The catamaran has extra privacy afforded by two hulls for accommodations.
Since there is only one large hull, adding length to a proa returns less accommodation volume and weight carrying capacity than the same length added to a catamaran.

The proa's main hull might be narrower than the catamaran, using a length to beam ratio of 17:1 for speed, resulting in a smaller interior space.

For these reasons, a 21 meter (69') proa has barely the same accommodations as a 43' catamaran. When compared to an 18 meter (59') catamaran, the 21 meter proa has significantly less accommodation volume...
*

Pacific Proa compared to Catamaran

Of course the guy is a bit partial about Proas

There are other advantages in a Cat: A substantially bigger righting moment for the same weight and beam and also a more straight forward way of changing tack, losing less time and distance.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## estaban

If we can post about non-cruiseable boats:

The new Marstrom M32 is very interesting.

A 32 foot extreme high performance catamaran that can be sailed by only two.



















Torvar Mirsky testing Marström 32 - YouTube

Katamaran M32 in Travemünde | NDR.de - Fernsehen - Sendungen A - Z - Schleswig-Holstein Magazin - media
Taufe des Hightech-Katamarans* - * SAT1 REGIONAL

Marstrom Composite AB


----------



## PCP

estaban said:


> If we can post about non-cruiseable boats:
> 
> The new Marstrom M32 is very interesting.
> 
> A 32 foot extreme high performance catamaran that can be sailed by only two.
> 
> ....


This thread is also about racing boats. there are several racing boats posted here. That one is a nice one and the movies are impressed. I hope that they don't pitch pole as easely as the ones from the America's cup

I also was impressed by the fact that a new racing cat is matter for the TV news in Germany. Impressive. That shows the public interest in sailing. I had no idea, I thought that only happen in France 

I also noticed that the company that makes the M32 is the same that make all parts for the Seacart 30. That one has just a big defect: Not having a performance cruising version



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

After some hard racers almost a classical performance cruiser,the first serious Salona 38 sailtest, by Voile and Voiliers:










And a test with more than some hours on the water, they passed 24 hours on the boat on a delivery trip and experienced different sea and wind conditions.

The boat was not sailed with a full racing crew seated on the sides, but only by two guys, one of them, a journaliste.

First interesting note, the title they have chosen for the article: *"Salona 38, already a great classic"*. Well, that's a good omen.

They sailed with a jib (solent) and that worsens the boat performance with light winds. The boat can come with that sail or with a 140% genoa.

Personally I would choose the bigger front sail and for stronger winds a jib mounted on a removable stay sail.

Even handicapped by the small front sail the measured speeds in light winds were not bad:

With 7K true wind at 45ºTW they made 5.9K

With 7K true wind at 120ºTW they made 6.1K

With stronger winds:

With 19K true wind at 70ºTW they made 8.2K

With 22K true wind at 95ºTW they made 10.5K

With confused seas and waves, sailing with a small spinnaker (for stronger winds):

With 18K true wind at 150ºTW they made never less than 9.5K and sometimes more.

They say that if the sea was not so confused and if they had proper following waves they would probably have surfed the waves, getting more speed. They say also that with a bigger spinnaker and that wind they would have probably the boat planning.

I know of similar typed boats that with strong winds and spinnaker had sailed at 16k (Elan 37).

These speeds were expected, considering the small front sail and the small spinaker, what gave me more satisfaction on this test was the confirmation of something that I also was expecting but that I never had heard confirmation:

I was expecting that the considerable rocker of this boat, the fine entries and a moderate beam would contribute to a good wave passage with not much wave drag and with a reasonably good comfort motion.

They have said about it:

*"Without effort, the Salona 38 &#8230;passes easily the chop, dragging little water &#8230;. In every sailing conditions the dominant impressions are: the easiness at the wheel, the good balance, the softness of the sea motion" (soupless dans le passage à la mer).*

It seems that I got it right. Those characteristics they talk about and a good speed, especially in what regards light wind sailing are my top sailing priorities, in what regards sailing performance.

Of course, I want other things from a cruising boat, but those others things are more objective and easy to observe, like a comfortable interior with good storage, a well built and strong boat and a god reserve stability.

Of course, in what regards a comfortable interior I am talking about the 2 cabin boat. On the 3 cabin boat the head is just too small unless you are a small guy, and not a big one, like me.

Here you have a movie with the guy that tested the boat. The boat was (obviously) that one.

Salona 38 : un Croate astucieux et plaisant

.....


----------



## PCP

Not long ago in another thread someone said that he never heard about Amel and recently another member posted that the boats he saw more frequently doing circumnavigations were precisely Amel.

I guess that other boat that you can find out there circumnavigating or in faraway places and that some of you never heard about is Garcia.

Garcia are mainly aluminium integral center boarders. Aluminum center boarders are a favorite among French circumnavigators and they are the ones that circumnavigate more.

I would say that the among the ones that chose a center boarder, the ones with less money buy OVNI or Allures, the ones that have the money for it buy Garcia, that is for more than 40 years the reference in what regards this kind of boat. Their Passoa and Salt series are already legendary boats. They only made 300 boats, but the percentage of those boats that are out there sailing in faraway places is very high.

Garcia has recently joined forces with Allures and Outremer to form a group that has as vocation to make several types of voyage boats. Garcia make the bigger ones.

They have an interesting blog:

Grand Large Café

Garcia clients have normally two characteristics: Have a lot of money and are good sailors, many buying another Garcia after having one, and many after have already circumnavigated.

Take a look at some of their boats:

The older ones are smaller:










yes, this is an old one It looks a new boat

The new ones are bigger. They don't have small boats anymore, the smaller they have now is a 47fter, but most of them are bigger. This one was bought by an old client that had circumnavigated already:




























Some bigger ones:







































































































































































































Garcia are exclusive boats, for rich guys, but at least they are for rich guys that like to sail, but not in some Rollex regatta with a full professional crew. These are made to sail with a short crew (family) and to voyage to far away places and to live aboard...in comfort, that's for sure

....


----------



## JohnRPollard

PCP said:


> ...Garcia are mainly aluminium integral center boarders. Aluminum center boarders are a favorite among French circumnavigators and they are the ones that circumnavigate more.
> 
> I would say that the among the ones that chose a center boarder, the ones with less money buy OVNI or Allures, the ones that have the money for it buy Garcia, that is for more than 40 years the reference in what regards this kind of boat. Their Passoa and Salt series are already legendary boats. They only made 300 boats, but the percentage of those boats that are out there sailing in faraway places is very high.
> 
> Garcia has recently joined forces with Allures and Outremer to form a group that has as vocation to make several types of voyage boats. Garcia make the bigger ones.....
> 
> Garcia are exclusive boats, for rich guys, but at least they are for rich guys that like to sail, but not in some Rollex regatta with a full professional crew. These are made to sail with a short crew (family) and to voyage to far away places and to live aboard...in comfort, that's for sure
> ....


Paulo, those Garcias are really nice. I love those centerboard versions with the twin rudders. Can they dry-out in the tidal flats?

Have you covered the yachts from Dutch builder K&M in this thread? Some are specifically designed for drying-put in areas with significant tide ranges. That is a feature which I would value highly for global voyaging.


----------



## PCP

JohnRPollard said:


> Paulo, those Garcias are really nice. I love those centerboard versions with the twin rudders. Can they dry-out in the tidal flats?
> 
> Have you covered the yachts from Dutch builder K&M in this thread? Some are specifically designed for drying-put in areas with significant tide ranges. That is a feature which I would value highly for global voyaging.


Yes, we had already talked about the Stadtship, Bestwind and Bestever. In what regards centerboarders I guess you refer to the Van de Stadt 56. We have already posted some pictures of that boat but you are right, it deserves more. I have a very weak internet connection and I have difficulty in posting decent sized pictures. In some days I will make a post about it.

There are two European schools in what regards center boarders, the Dutch one and French one. Dutch centerboarders are heavier, with more ballast. The French ones are lighter and faster. The French one is dominant and there are much more boats made according to that design criteria.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Some posts back I had posted about this strange mini racer:



















The boat had won a race on the mini circuit, not one of the big ones, but even so...quite impressive. The designer is also the skipper and the design is not an accidental good luck. The guy is a naval engineer and had predicted the boat performance in computer simulations. David Raison, that's his name, was involved with Lucas on the design of the first 40class racer with chines, the boat that started all that revolution on hull design. A creative guy.










I cannot say that I like his boat, but I have to admit that it works. He and his boat have just finished to won the more important mini race, between France and Brasil. And he have not won it on a strategic move or something like that, he won it with power and speed. On last 3 or 4 days of race, on the same course he put between him and the second 140nm. Truly incredible, well, the boat is called Magnum and that's for something. He also beat the race record time betweem Madeira and Rio de Janeiro averaging more than 7.5K, on a 22ft boat

Take a look at this movie:

David Raison, Magnum*: l

Quite clear isn't it?

Well, I guess that bow is really to radical for cruising boats, but I would expect that some class 40 will go that way. On cruising boats, even if I don't expect a so radical solution I expect to see some slightly rounded bows.

Funny, many years ago when I was reading a book about the design and building of XVI century sailing boats, I was a bit confused with one of the rules of what was considered good practice of the art of good design, something about a well rounded bow

...


----------



## estaban

It's an interesting question as to whether this may be as bad in waves as intuition would have one think.

At first glance, "naturally" a pointy bow will slice through the water more easily.

But on second thought, if we compare equal beam (or thickness), which foil cuts through water better: one with a pointy leading edge, or a rounded one like this?

Actually the rounded one.

Of course, operating on the surface might change things.

Still, as ugly as this is, it has proven fast so far including in conditions that aren't anything like mirror smooth.

We may have prejudice against it because of high performance scows having so little freeboard as to be unable do well in waves, and we attribute their restriction to smooth condfitions to the roundness of the bow... but maybe that isn't the cause.

I hope this is not really faster, because it sure isn't pretty. 

Another worthwhile question is that if not dealing with rating rules or concerned about per-foot mooring charges, would the boat be faster with the _same amount of material _and _same construction cost_ put into a moderately longer boat with a finer bow?

Sure, one would probably gain only an extra couple of feet, but that might be enough to equal or more than equal the speed gain from the spoon bow.

(Of course we run into this consideration all the time with increased beam as well, but there seems usually to be little thought given to the fact that for same cost, more beam results in shorter length.)


----------



## PCP

estaban said:


> ...
> Another worthwhile question is that if not dealing with rating rules or concerned about per-foot mooring charges, would the boat be faster with the _same amount of material _and _same construction cost_ put into a moderately longer boat with a finer bow?
> 
> Sure, one would probably gain only an extra couple of feet, but that might be enough to equal or more than equal the speed gain from the spoon bow.
> 
> (Of course we run into this consideration all the time with increased beam as well, but there seems usually to be little thought given to the fact that for same cost, more beam results in shorter length.)


Regarding price we would be lead to believe that a narrower cruising boat would be less expensive than a really beamy boat like the ones that take inspiration on the open class boats, but experience shows that it is not the case. A narrower boat needs more ballast to compensate the smaller form stability and that means the need of a stronger and more reinforced hull to be able to absorb the extra stress.

Also a narrow boat has a lot less interior space and for having the same space available on a beamy boat you need to compensate with length and will end up with a longer and even more expensive boat that will pay more at the marina.

In the end a narrow cruising boat is a more expensive option and that's why there are very few really narrow cruising boats.

One of the few that still remain is this one:










Nordborg Baadebyggeri A/S - Nordborg 40 - Bilder in Groansicht -

Beautiful boat, but you have on a 40ft the interior space of a 36ft

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Interesting question:

* "What are the ideal characteristics of a blue water sailing yacht?" *

And the answer is certainly interesting when given by a good and very experienced naval architect: *Olivier Racoupeau *

http://www.berret-racoupeau.com/

- It is difficult, even tricky to answer such a question.

The old-fashioned image of a boat full of bearded men lives on. The expression "blue water yachts" has become a generic term - like cars where a 'four-wheel drive' can mean anything from a Daktari Land Rover to a Porsche Cayenne. The boat that fits the buyer's project and specific needs can always be found.

For a naval architect, it is important to identify the owners' future requirements or the shipyard's customer base. *What will the boat be used for? Is the owner planning to sail to austere and remote regions like the far North or the Patagonian canals, where he will have to be totally self-sufficient; or will the yacht be used for sailing around the Atlantic, cruising the Casamance or the West Indies, or even sailing to Brazil and back?*

Will the owner want a keelboat, a yacht with a centreboard or a multihull?

Will he want to sail fast or not? *His schedule has to be precisely defined because there is a boat for each and every purpose.*

Today, the market for blue water sailing yachts has grown considerably and there is a wide range of boats on offer.

There are aluminium monohulls with centreboard or keel, graceful and seaworthy, easy to handle and maintain. 
With this type of sailboat, one can cruise in really difficult waters, as aluminium is indestructible.

There are also composite multihulls, which are light, comfortable and fast, for those who like speed and want to sail around the world at 12 knots or get from one place to the next without wasting time.

*- Nevertheless, there are some important features to be considered, which are common to all blue water sailing yachts.*

For instance, not only is it essential to have the capacity to produce drinking water, but a long distance cruiser must also be able to generate its own electricity. Our design office is always on the lookout for new means of producing electricity and ways to reduce and manage the consumption.

Another characteristic common to all blue water yachts is their inherent reliability. It is essential to have total confidence in the boat and its equipment. When considering the boat's specifications, its reliability must be kept in mind at all times.

The equipment is not fitted to an ocean cruiser in the same way as it is to a dayboat. Accessibility also plays a vital role - not only must the crew be able to monitor all the systems, they must also be able to repair any breakage on board themselves; whereas the weekender can return to harbour and call on the services of a professional technician. On the high seas, all equipment must be accessible, functional and repairable. At the beginning, the owner may not be an expert; he will have to learn along the way how to manage the maintenance himself.

As far as the accommodation is concerned, there is a huge choice of plans available but the most popular is a three-cabin layout - one for the parents, one for the children and one for any guests invited to take part in a leg of the cruise. This is most suited to monohulls as on catamarans, there is often space for four cabins or more."

*There are many types of blue water sailing boats. Before buying, it is essential to identify clearly the sailing schedule and to consider the boat's characteristics as far as self-sufficiency, reliability and equipment accessibility are concerned.*

Finally, do not hesitate to ask the professionals questions; shipyards and architects specialising in ocean cruising yachts will be delighted to advise.

It seems like a sound advice to me, specially if we take into consideration that the guy is a good sailor and there are sailing around the globe about 15000 boats made according to his plans, all kind of boats, including blue water boats.

This interview was made by Allures shipyard. Allures is an Aluminum center boarder that is designed by him but it seems to me that he did not let is answer be prejudiced by that. Sure Allures are bluewater boats, as many other types of boats

..


----------



## estaban

PCP said:


> Regarding price we would be lead to believe that a narrower cruising boat would be less expensive than a really beamy boat like the ones that take inspiration on the open class boats, but experience shows that it is not the case. A narrower boat needs more ballast to compensate the smaller form stability and that means the need of a stronger and more reinforced hull to be able to absorb the extra stress.
> 
> Also a narrow boat has a lot less interior space and for having the same space available on a beamy boat you need to compensate with length and will end up with a longer and even more expensive boat that will pay more at the marina.


Agreed completely on the interior space: Undoubtedly that is the killer in the market.

Meaningful comparisons become hard or impossible when not keeping as much possible as equal.

I was saying building longer for same cost, but it seemed you were describing different cost. Which would ruin the comparison.

It's certainly possible to build with narrower beam and some amount longer for same cost. This is the comparison I was making.

You lose space, no doubt. Whether you are slower or faster for having the greater length, granted that there is less form stability, is the question I am raising.

I suspect that where rating rules are not involved -- which penalize length -- it is really the space issue that drives wide beam, not speed for money. But to say the least, actually it is the very reason I write, I would love to learn more on it.

I don't have an interesting new boat in mind that is moderate or narrow beam and fast, beyond your posting the Luffe which seems more moderate in beam than most cruising or racing/cruising boats today. An interesting older boat (one-off) was Amati, which was for sale recently. Quite narrow, quite fast for her build cost or offered price, when offered. But as you say, much less room inside than people expect for length.


----------



## PCP

This is a very nice little boat even more beautiful in this new and more agressive outfit (very Italian):



















Well Italian boat but made in Poland, like many other French boats. Poland is becoming the biggest European boat manufacturer but their only well known boat is Delphia. That is changing.

We had already talked about the Cobra 33 today I will post about a good looking center boarder that is going to be presented on the fall European Salons, the Sedna. It comes in two versions, the 26ft and the 30ft, at unbeatable prices. They advertise it for about 26000€.

The 26ft:





































The 30ft (alongside the 26ft on the 2 first images)


----------



## PCP

As promised, here is the Vand de Stadt 56, that is built by K&M. Beautiful boat but more spartan than the Garcia 57, even if I doubt that less expensive.

The interior is less open, more traditional and less creative (but very well done). The interior looks also smaller and that is probably because the 56 is a really Pilot house with an enclosed fixed house while the Salt has a pilot house but with a removable house (kind of a cabriolet).









































































The Salt 57 has two versions, one with a center cockpit other with a aft cockpit. The one with the Aft cockpit weights less 3000kg, the other has about the same weight. The board of the Garcia has more 67cm (3.67) and is ballasted (1500kg). The Garcia has a total ballast of 6800kg while the Stadt has more 900kg and 2000kg of liquid ballast. The sail area is not much different with 3.5 more meters for the Stadt (167.5).

Probably the fastest is the Salt 37 aft cockpit but the performances are not very different and this are all fast and seaworthy boats, good boats.

The bigger difference is in the interior conception. I don't know if I would not chose the stadt but I have to admit that the Salt even in the aft cockpit boat has a much more light and spacious interior, with a better design:





































*Take a look here, it deserves a look. Click in "Suivant".*

http://pierrefrutschi.com/crbst_17.html

And the 57 CC interior is just awesome. It looks like a much bigger boat:
































































Well, I decide the one I prefer after a test sail

....


----------



## PCP

After being delayed by bad weather finally the Transat Jaques Fabre is on. They are heading at 20k to 6m waves and 35k winds (at least). Beautiful 35 race solo boats out there, Class40, Open60 and Multi50, raced by two guys each.

Take a look at this movie with a summary of the last editions, beautiful boats, beautiful images





10 éditions de Transat Jacques Vabre _por mairie-lehavre_


----------



## PCP

Some posts back I have posted about a new American trimaran, a nice boat. I guess the European counterpart is the Challenge 42, made by naval Force 3 that makes primarily smaller cruising trimarans.

The boat was launched in 2009 and I think only one was made. The boat was designed as a fast bluewater boat and a long range cruiser and I like it a lot. Minimal but comfortable and with everything one need to live aboard.

I guess that the downside, as in like any trimaran, is price and even if this one is not expensive (less than the American one) even so it costs about 400 000€ and of course, it's a no no in any marina, paying two times the price of a monohull.

But it is really a beauty and I bet it sails like a dream



















*Take a look at the movie:*

Challenge 42 : la grande croisière rapide

And since we are talking about trimarans...,a nice movie:





Challenge Estuaire Multicoque 2011 _por multihulls-world_
....


----------



## PCP

Let's get back to the Comet 26s,



















I fell that I had said not enough about this little fast cruiser that had raised a lot of interest and had very good results in the test sails from all the sail press:

http://www.comaryachts.it/images/Boats/CY SOLO VELA 07 11.PDF

http://www.comaryachts.it/images/Boats/CY IL GIORNALE DELLA VELA 04 11.PDF

The boat has interesting technical characteristics and it comes in two versions, one with a center board and with a mast that lowers to pass over bridges and another, faster, with a bulbed keel and fixed mast:

Specification

hull length	7,60 m
length with pulpit	8,09 m
length overall with pulpit and rudder	8,68 m
LWL	6,73 m
Maximum beam	2,96 m
WL	2,07 m
Width transom	2,75 m
Freeboard at bow	1,22 m
Displacement at half load	1790 Kg
Max Draft	1,75 m
Draft drift raised	0,80 m
Upwind sail area	36,5 mq
Rigging and Equipment
Mast 9/10 1 1 level spreaders	abbattibile
Winch sheets

st
Outboard suggested	10 hp
Inboard engine saildrive	13 hp
kitchen	2 fuochi
Freshwater	100 l
Beds	6
Liftingkeel	meccanico
Construction material	Fiberglass
Shipyard builder	COMAR yachts
Dedigner	S. Lupoli Yacht Design

Price
Standard boat ex VAT, ex shipyard	31.500,00 €

The shipyard says about it:

* The C26 is ... built by Comar Poland, the shipyard Comar Yachts has established in Poland for the construction of these boats. In particular, the Comet 26 aims to be a comfortable small cruiser, very easy to use and with excellent technical content.

The sail plan and deck layout are optimized to ensure the boat is fast and responsive when maneuvering, at the same time making certain she is easy to manage even with a family crew.

The Comet 26 is easy to use and transport as you can reach the beach thanks to the lifting keel and retractable rudder. The boat's minimum draft is 50 cm. The foldable mast also guarantees the ease of transport: a well tested block & tackle system allows the Comet 26 to go under bridges not less than 3 meters high, letting you moor along channels and rivers.

A second version of the C26 is also available with a fixed keel and a non-foldable mast. Thanks to a notable freeboard and maximum beam of about 3 meters, the Comet 26 offers true cruiser interiors: berths are spacious and comfortable and the galley and head areas are ergonomically designed to be spacious and functional. Hull and deck are solidly laminated using isophthalic resin and fiberglass sheets. With the Comet 26, the goal is to offer a small cruising boat that is truly easy to manage while providing maximum comfort.*

Some *movies* :











...


----------



## PCP

While we wait for the images of this year's race (Transat Jacques Fabre), that I am sure should be great just have a look at this great *movie* of Groupe Bell, that is now in 6th place:






And since heavy weather is expected just have a look at what is like (on solo boats and on Vor70) when things are rough:






And since we are at it, some cruisers doing well in 46k wind:


----------



## PCP

It was not easy to find nice images of start of the Jacques Fabre Transat. The ones on their site are no good, nothing on you tube but finally here they are, on the site of Voile and Voiliers.

Good quality images of very nice solo racing boats at speed. Great images:

Voiles et Voiliers


----------



## PCP

The Grand soleil is on the water for a month now and all we get is some low quality pictures:










I don't understand the commercial policy of Grand Soleil

Well, no we don't have decent pictures but we have three movies and I can say that the Grand Soleil 39 is beautiful specially on the outside, on the inside I really don't like all that white and the 80's thing to put the ditches on the galley.

http://www.grandsoleil.net/public/gs_39/brochure.pdf

It is a very classic boat, like the Salona 38 or the Solaris 37. The three boats share the same ADN. The boat looks better on the movies than on the pictures (maybe that's why they don't show any decent pictures).

*Movies:*
















The new XP 38 is not far away in ADN perhaps a bit less classic or more modern as you prefer, but with the same kind of hull.

The Xp 38 is a gorgeous boat, probably from the 4 is the one that I like more on the outside line. It is a pity that its interior is smaller because the place were they had put the head takes a lot of space to the saloon. I don't like also all that white.

Regarding the interiors I like more the one from the Salona, than the one from Grand Soleil, and the one from X yachts is the worse. I am not talking about materials ( I am quite sure that the X yacht quality is top) but that interior really looks like one from a 36ft boat

But I guess that we can even forget that, just looks how it sails

*Movie:*

XP-38: Schnörkellos schnell segeln - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE


----------



## PCP

Do you have heard about Far east boats, a Chinese boat manufacturer?:

*Founded in 2002, Shanghai Far East FRP Boat Co., Ltd. is recognized as the biggest dinghy builder in China. The goal is to produce various high quality sailboats and boat fittings for our customers. "Even better than our faith is the honesty of our objective."

In the same year, Far East was licensed by the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) to build the Optimist and now have become the biggest Optimist builder in the world with a yearly capacity of approximately 2000 Optimist hulls.

More recently, Far East also became an ISAF licensed builder of the 420 and started the plan to diversify the product range to Kayak and other sailboats.
Far East is also the sole distributor of Laser in the mainland China and serves China's national sailing team in their daily training and regatta performance.*

I bet this guys are going to upgrade to yacht construction and make good boats.

I have saw last year in Dusseldorf its first cruiser, a 26ft boat and I thought How!!! what a boat and looked to see who made that little beauty and saw Far East Boats???? I thought: another European or American small company making boats in china. Well I was wrong, it's an already Chinese big company with lot's of know how, inclusive from competition, that is starting to make bigger boats, and this one is quite a start.

The boat is designed by Simonis Voogd and it is a very interesting boat:

Fareast 26

Technical specifications
Length Overall: 8.38m
Length Hull: 7.92m
Water line length: 7.17m
Beam: 2.55m
Draft Max:. 1.70m

Displacement: 1655kg
Mainsail Area: 23.2 m2
Furling Jib Area: 14 m2
Spinnaker Area: 57.4 m2
Sail Area Total Upwind: 37.20m2
Sail Area Total Downwind: 80.60 m2
Engine: Outboard

The Fareast 26 is already a sucesseful One Design Class in China competing in the China Cup International Regatta.

The boat has a top construction with vacuum infusion, cored and with epoxy resins. It is not me that says that, it's the boat architect that is not a small one and would never tell lies about it. Listen also on the movie to the ingenuity of the Chinese girl. The funny thing is that I believe her. This boat if adequately distributed is going to be a success, on Europe and in the States.

Transported to Germany the basic boat with 17% German VAT is only 35 000€.

Look at the movie with the Architect and their sales manager, a young girl

*Movie:*





*And the sailing movie:*














































































Beautiful boat isn't it? I bet this one will be available in the USA soon and at this price I believe it is going to be a winner, there and in Europe.

....


----------



## PCP

On a recent populat thread about the more popular voyage boats I have said that probably the most popular French one is the OVNI but that the RM sailboats were gaining popularity.

The RM offer a less strong boat and I mean against hitting submerged objects (epoxy/plywood versus aluminum) but a much more faster alternative. RM are almost as fast as fast cruiser racers and are made with voyage in mind.

Well, it seems that they are now even more popular

On these crisis days with manufacturer closing doors and others in trouble, RM has all next year production for its new boat almost completely booked.

There would be nothing special about this if the boat were already made for costumers having a look, but the first one is still on the making. They have started the comercialization in September and before the main boat shows (Hamburg, Paris, Dusseldorf) they have already booked 5 from the nine they have capacity to build each year, I mean, just this model, the new 1260.





































And it is not only the French that are buying them, 3 of the five are going abroad

I have test sailed the previous boat, the 1200 and it was not just what I was looking for but if I was looking for a long range voyager this would be the boat I would have, not that I would not chose other if I had the money for it, but this is the one that is fast, well made and afordable.

And it is not only this one, the smaler boat, also thought with voyage in mind, the RM 1060 that come out in September 2010 had already 32 commands with 19 boats delivered. There is a waiting list of more than a year for that one


----------



## Chimbatete

Looks like the Fareast 26 is the perfect daysailer/racer. Looks good, large cockpit, simple rig and 1/4 the price of Alerions and Eyachts but with a complete cabin that you can stand on.

Seems perfect if daysailing/weeknight racing is your cup of tea.


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Looks like the Fareast 26 is the perfect daysailer/racer. Looks good, large cockpit, simple rig and 1/4 the price of Alerions and Eyachts but with a complete cabin that you can stand on.
> 
> Seems perfect if daysailing/weeknight racing is your cup of tea.


Crisis or no crisis if we look to today's production from the past, I mean let's say 50 years ago, in what regards living amenities, today's boats are luxury boats, even the most humble Beneteaus and Bavarias.

When I started cruising I had a 25ft 80 years old traditional boat wooden boat with a deck but a bare interior, with siting height and we cruise (me and my wife) and live in the boat for 2 months each year and we did not cruise for more time because we had to work. The boat had no radio, no electronics, just a compass and luxury for us were small battery operated removable navigation lights that permits us to navigate at night. And even if we take shelter on protected or semi protected waters for most of the cruising we crossed each year hundreds of open ocean waters, many times with land out of sight.

At that time if he got the hands in a boat like the Fareast 26 I would fell that I could circumnavigate in it. Times changed but what really changed, in what regards boats and living conditions, is our mentality and the good things in life we are not willing to pass without, like a freezer or enough electricity to have light at night or running electronics.

Many years ago passed by my port a Scottish guy that was living his dream. A damn good sailor and a professional sailing teacher. He was circumnavigating in a small boat, a beautiful boat (28ft?): No engine, no freezer, no electronics. He did it successively and he looked very pleased with his boat and with his good luck that had permitted him to live his dream.

Bottom line, the Fareast 26 looks not only very fast but also seaworthy to me. The designer says that it is a medium displacement boat and even if the Ballast of the boat does not appear nowhere, I would say that it is a a boat with a relatively high B/D ratio and that with all the lead in a bulb 1.7m below should give it a lot of righting moment and a good reserve stability.

I would have loved to have a boat like that in my youth and I can tell you that I would not use it for daysailing, but for cruising and some racing

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

New yacht, another 38, the Saare 38. Definitively 38 ft boats seams to have a lot of demand. The Saare 38 is a medium displacement boat and a direct concurrent of XC 38 and Halberg Rassy 372. the boat weights 8500kg, almost the same as the XC 38, and its biggest argument is price. No, it is not a cheap boat but it is less expensive than other Nordic boats.

The interior quality seems very good but the construction specifications are only good but nothing special. The boat don't uses vacuum injection, neither epoxy or an interior carbon or steel grid, just a GRP grid on an hand laminated sandwich hull with vinilester resins on the outer skin, and 19mm balsa on the core.

Saare 38 main dimensions

MAIN	41.1 m2
GENOA	45.2 m2 (140%)
FORETRI.	32.2 m2
SPIN.	100 m2

Beam max	3.64 m
Draft	1.95 m
Displacement	8 500 kg
Keel (all lead)	3 050 kg



























































































This is a seaworthy boat with a very good B/D ratio, a very good interior and also a good looking boat designed along classical lines, a boat that can be the right choice for the ones that want a good quality bluewater boat for a nice price. The boat costs with 17% German VAT (Basic price) around 243 000€ and a decently equipped boat will cost about 266 000€. This can seem a lot but the XC 38 costs a lot more.

The NA says about this boat:

*"The goal in designing the Saare 38 was to provide a well-balanced and stiff yacht that is a pleasure to sail even with limited crew and in demanding conditions. The hull reflects the latest thinking with a low resistance hull shape that has the ability to carry the necessary load without losing in cruising comfort or sailing performance both upwind and downwind.

The general layout emphasizes spaciousness and functionality with the high freeboard and roomy cabin. Even with the open spaces, the interior provides excellent support for extreme conditions with good access to key areas.

The makeup of the Saare 38 employs well-proven concepts together with a carefully optimized use of materials. The Saare 38 is stiff, steady and reliable."

Karl-Johan Stråhlmann
*

Here you have a *movie* about the boat:






And a good *test sail* by the German magazine yacht:

http://www.blueocean.fi/tests/Saare38_Yacht-Test_19-2011.pdf

And you can compare with its main rival, the XC 38

*Test sail* XC 38 by YachtingMonthly:

http://www.x-yachts.dk/uploads/xc_38review.pdf

and a *movie* :

XC 38: neuer Cruiser: Der goldene Schnitt aus Dänemark - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE

.....


----------



## Faster

Very "HR"-ish isn't she? Looks nice despite the 'low tech' aspect. Plenty of handholds below, reasonable storage. The table's a bit obstructive, but that's the nature of that configuration. Still 'yachty' enough for me!


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## PCP

Faster said:


> Very "HR"-ish isn't she? Looks nice despite the 'low tech' aspect. Plenty of handholds below, reasonable storage. The table's a bit obstructive, but that's the nature of that configuration. Still 'yachty' enough for me!


I guess you are talking about the new line of Aft cockpits from the HR (372 and the new 40)? Yes it is similar and also similar with the X yachts line of cruising boats, the XC line.

You can see on the movie that table folds over the other side and leaves a nice space. That's the new trend with tables. The first one was the Jeanneau 409 and now lots of boats following including the new Grand Soleil 39 and Solaris 37. The Salona has one of those on the 44 and I ask them to make one for the 38. We will see.

I like the boat but for me is too Mercedes or BMW. I like more Porches

Compare it with this one, also a new one a 37ft, called 10.98, from Italia Yachts:









































































As you can see both boats share a very classical look with a hull with the beam not too much pulled back but the similarities end there. This one that also has a good interior, more on the minimalist side, weights about half what the Saare 38 weights

Tecnichal specifications:
Length over all: 11,29 mt. (37,04 ft.)
Hull length: mt. 10,98 (36,02 ft.)
Waterline length: mt. 9,65 (31,66 ft.)
Beam max: mt. 3,65 (11,97 ft.)
Draft: mt. 1,90 (6,23 ft.)
Displacement: kg 4.500
Ballast: kg 1.500
Engine: Lombardini 20 Hp (Lombardini engine 30 hp optional)
Mainsail + Jib: 72 mq
Mainsail + Gennaker: 135 mq

Of course that implies a more hi-tech construction the and the use of vinylester resin not only on the last layers but everywhere:

"Hull and deck are constructed in sandwich with differentiated density PVC core; the unidirectional and biaxial E-glass fibres are laminated with vinylester resin. The lamination is carried out at controlled temperature between 16 and 25°.The collar of the mast is structural.There is a structural carbon reinforced frame glued and laminated to the hull bottom. A structural carbon box dissipates the shrouds load to the hull and deck."

They say about the boat:

Italia 10.98 is a new boat built by a shipyard able to boast a fifty-years long experience. It is well manufactured to last a lifetime. Waterlines and sailing plan are the brainchild of Maurizio Cossutti and t*hey are made to ensure an incomparable navigation experience*.

The wide teak cockpit, the sundeck and the perfect location of the manoeuvres on deck: nothing is left random to ensure great sailing simplicity both in cruising and racing. The luminous and comfortable interiors, finished in precious teak wood, are among the widest and richest of innovative solutions in its category.

and some *movies*:











The guy that test sailed the Salona 38 with me (in Croatia) was undicided between the Salona 38 and this one. I guess that he chose this one. He was Italian and wanted a cruising boat that could make well in club racing and both boats will do that, but this one should be a rocket, specially with weak winds.

If I do not intended to cross the Atlantic and sail without limits, If I just sailed on the med I guess that I would also chose this one. As it is not the case I prefer the Salona 38 that is just between this one (more 2000kg) and the Saare 38 (less 2000kg).

I am afraid that the Italia 10.98 is not strong enough for the beating a boat can have on an Ocean passage but maybe I am wrong, maybe the boat is strong enough but I am sure the Salona is stronger.

The Salona (the upgraded version) not only is built with the same hi-tech materials and techniques as have also a grid (a stainless steel one) not only for the shrouds, but also for the keel. The Salona also uses vacuum infusion that is the way to get maximum strength with the lowest weight.

Maybe I am wrong, but using the same hi-tech materials and techniques, if a boat is considerably heavier, assuming it is well built, it can only be stronger.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Chimbatete

PCP said:


> Crisis or no crisis if we look to today's production from the past, I mean let's say 50 years ago, in what regards living amenities, today's boats are luxury boats, even the most humble Beneteaus and Bavarias.
> 
> When I started cruising I had a 25ft 80 years old traditional boat wooden boat with a deck but a bare interior, with siting height and we cruise (me and my wife) and live in the boat for 2 months each year and we did not cruise for more time because we had to work. The boat had no radio, no electronics, just a compass and luxury for us were small battery operated removable navigation lights that permits us to navigate at night. And even if we take shelter on protected or semi protected waters for most of the cruising we crossed each year hundreds of open ocean waters, many times with land out of sight.
> 
> At that time if he got the hands in a boat like the Fareast 26 I would fell that I could circumnavigate in it. Times changed but what really changed, in what regards boats and living conditions, is our mentality and the good things in life we are not willing to pass without, like a freezer or enough electricity to have light at night or running electronics.
> 
> Many years ago passed by my port a Scottish guy that was living his dream. A damn good sailor and a professional sailing teacher. He was circumnavigating in a small boat, a beautiful boat (28ft?): No engine, no freezer, no electronics. He did it successively and he looked very pleased with his boat and with his good luck that had permitted him to live his dream.
> 
> Bottom line, the Fareast 26 looks not only very fast but also seaworthy to me. The designer says that it is a medium displacement boat and even if the Ballast of the boat does not appear nowhere, I would say that it is a a boat with a relatively high B/D ratio and that with all the lead in a bulb 1.7m below should give it a lot of righting moment and a good reserve stability.
> 
> I would have loved to have a boat like that in my youth and I can tell you that I would not use it for daysailing, but for cruising and some racing
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Nice story Paulo, yes in a world of consumerism and mass production, we are often told that we need things that we really dont.

I watched the video of the designer of the Fareast you provided. He was talking about the boat being of high quality materials but he looks very serious and and not winking. I mean how the hell is this possible for $50k? Whats the catch?

I'm eyeing a beautiful well maintained Contessa 32 here in Lake Ontario and Im thinking that for the same money, if what they say of the construction of the Fareast is true, I may have one shipped. Its brand new, faster, not 30 years old and the interior seems just as spacious for a 26 vs. a Contessa 32.


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Nice story Paulo, yes in a world of consumerism and mass production, we are often told that we need things that we really dont.
> 
> I watched the video of the designer of the Fareast you provided. He was talking about the boat being of high quality materials but he looks very serious and and not winking. I mean how the hell is this possible for $50k? Whats the catch?
> 
> I'm eyeing a beautiful well maintained Contessa 32 here in Lake Ontario and Im thinking that for the same money, if what they say of the construction of the Fareast is true, I may have one shipped. Its brand new, faster, not 30 years old and the interior seems just as spacious for a 26 vs. a Contessa 32.


Chimbatete, I don't know what is the right boat for you but I know that the Contessa 32 is a completely different boat from the Fareast 26.

The contessa 32 is a 35 year's old design, a good one, a relatively heavy and seaworthy sailboat. It is also relatively fast, specially upwind in medium and strong winds but as nothing to do with the performance of a Fareast 26, specially downwind. Even upwind the small difference in LWL 15cm will not be enough to compensate the much better sail area/Displacement of the F26, except perhaps in heavy weather.










Contessa 32 Review : Bluewaterboats.org










But most of all the feeling of the two boats will be world's apart, if you like one, you would probably not like the other

I give you an advise: Test sail that Contessa 32 and then charter a J80, or find someone here that does not mind to give you a ride. The J 80 is an older design (regarding the Fareast 26), with less draft and without all the ballast in a bulb, a smaller and a lighter boat with a much smaller cabin, but you will have an idea.










*Movie:*






The Fareast should be more stiff (he can carry more 20% of sail) have a bit more inertia (it is 25% heavier) and would be faster, specially upwind where its much bigger LWL will mark the difference (more 54 cm).

It would have a feel of a bigger boat, with a bigger free-board, probably it will be a bit more seaworthy and of course, it has an incomparable bigger cabin with an incomparable better cruising interior. Not that the J 80 is not a seaworthy boat, it is. Its bigger handicap as an offshore racer is its limited interior space for the crew.

J/80 One-Design, Family Sailboat- A Family Rocketship- The Ultimate Family Sailboat For Sailors Who Love Sailing, Racing, Day-sailing or One-Design Sailing.

J/80 One-Design Sailboat- Sailing World Review- The Ultimate 26 ft One-Design Sailboat For Sailors Who Love Sailing, Racing, Day-sailing or One-Design Sailing.

J/80 International One-Design- Practical Sailor Review- The Ultimate 26 ft Sailboat For Sailors Who Love Sailing, Racing, Day-sailing or One-Design Sailing.

The Fareast 26 is a bigger and heavier boat, comparing with the J 80, but I guess that sailing a j80 will give you an idea. You have just to imagine a stiffer and bigger J80 with a good cruising interior.

I would be very interested in that comparative and in your opinion regarding both boats and its sailing characteristics

If you found out that the Fareast 26 is the boat you want, you should talk with that nice lady in the Video. She should probably be interested in having a Fareast 26 on some USA boat shows and will probably pay you the boat transport if you allow her to have it on one or two boat shows

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Another nice performance cruiser to be presented at the Hamburg boat show, the Pacer 400.

The boat can be delivered in three versions, an upgraded cruiser one at 209 560 € a lighter one in epoxy resin for 236 450 € and a race version with carbon fiber mast for 293 990 € (prices with 17% German VAT).

They use high tech materials and building techniques specially on the upgraded versions. On the Cheaper version they use on Hull and Decks Vinylester composites. On the upgraded versions the Hull is built using vacuum bagged hand lay-up before the hardening process starts, and is post cured after it has left the mould. The laminated construction consists of hydrolysis - proof epoxy resin, multidirectional fabrics and foam as sandwich material. Internally the laminate is sealed using topcoat.

The interior seems a lot better than on the 376, their other model that was already brought to Europe.

The boat is light and powerful and should be very fast.

TECHNICAL INFORMATION

Length Overall 12.04m 
Length WaterLine 11.03m 
Beam 3.75m 
Draft 2.4m (std T Keel) 
Displacement 5700kg to 6350kg 
Engine Size (STD) 30hp

SAIL AREAS (Std Rig and Sail Plan)

Mainsail 48.6m 
Code 1 Jib 36m2 
Spinnaker Masthead 120m2

*A very interesting sailboat*


----------



## PCP

Finally Bavaria seems to have got it right with the Bavaria Vision 46. I hope the rest of the line, particularly the 40, will be as well designed as this one. And for once this Bavaria has a warm and well designed interior

The boat is going to be presented at Dusseldorf in January, it is expected to be a well equipped boat and will cost about 20 000€ less than the Jeanneau 45DS, its main competitor. The price with 17% German Vat tax will be around 208 000€, a fair price for what seems to be a nice and innovative boat.



















*Movie:*


----------



## Chimbatete

Hi Paulo,

Couple of questions I ask when buying a boat. What are you using it for? and How much?Looks (to an extent)

I dont know how people sail here but its about weeknight races and weekend regattas(if theres one)/family cruising. Now if you have a limited budget, I cant see how you wont have a look at the Fareast. 

Because truthfully, the only boats you can have (weeknight racing/crusing) for that amount are 20 year old boats (c&c's, CS, Mirages, Tartans, Pearsons, Contessas, Older Beneteau first series in the great lakes). Now you introduce a boat like the Fareast 26 for $50k approx and it changes the game. 

The question is simple, get a 30 year old boat or a new boat for the same intent of use for near the same price. It would be a travesty if they cant market this boat coz it practically sells itself. I'm fairly young, and this is the type of boat that target my demographic.


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## G1000

Chimbatete, how about shared ownership and new (88k euro) Varianta 44?


----------



## PCP

Yes the varianta is very interesting for the price. It is really a pity that the boat has not an option for an anchor locker and a closed cockpit locker (the one they have opens directly to a cabin). That would not cost a lot of money and would really open other horizons ti that boat, that is a seaworthy and fast boat. For the ones interested there are posts in this thread about the boat.

*MOVIE:*






Even the Varianta 18 is interesting for the program the Chimbatete describes and it only costs 11 000€

Varianta Segelyachten - from Dehler with love

*Movies:*

Varianta 18 Vilma - HD - YouTube

Varianta-18.de Sailing 20 FSA Segelsport.avi - YouTube

Varianta-18.de Sailing-6 - YouTube

Regards

Paulo


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## Chimbatete

Hi G1000, thats unbelievably cheap (and relatively nice) but I have to be honest, I cant skipper that big a boat. Maybe in 2 to 3 years.


----------



## PCP

Some posts back I have talked about the Bavaria Vision 46. One of its concurrent in the market is the Jeanneau 44 DS that cost about the same.

On this movie (voile and voiliers) we can see a very interesting comparison between the Jeanneau 44ds and the Jeanneau 439, both new boats. Maybe you don't know but they share the same hull.

The film is French but even if you don't understand you have just to look to find the differences. According with the type of sailors each boat is aimed, the 439 has battened mail with more sail area and the 44ds a furling main.

Besides the exterior look a more difficult movement on the deck, less sail area and the superior wind lateral force (and wave if it hits the boat laterally) on the 44ds the main differences on the interior are the number of steps you have to come down (5 to 3), the felling on the saloon (not necessarily good), the interior design and most of all the much superior back cabin and that is without any doubt a big advantage.

Its up to each sailor to decide if he would trade that back cabin and more light on the saloon to the sailing disadvantages since the difference in price is small, about 3000€. Both boats seem very well designed to me

*Movie:*

La WebTV de Voiles et Voiliers - Les vidéos

...


----------



## G1000

Chimbatete said:


> I cant skipper that big a boat


so go for a smaller one. this nacira 650 for sale for 50k EUR or you can grab dismasted proto 756 for 70k


----------



## PCP

*The world's fastest cruising yacht*

Finot/conq had won an international competition to design the fastest cruising yacht. The boat is a 100ft and is designed for 12 passengers and 3 crew members:

General dimensions

Hull length	30.48m
Beam	8.30m
Draft	5.40m / 3.00m lifting
Displacement	51t
Keel	15t
Water ballasts	9.5t each side
Upwind sail area	690m2
Downwind sail area	1400m2
Fresh water tanks	2000l
Fuel tanks	4000l
Engine	300 CV
Materials	Carbon - Epoxy - Nomex - SAN foam

Finot says about the boat:

*To attain this goal, the yacht will be a real "Open" typed boat, with a chined hull, probably wider than on any other 100 footer. The lifting keel will allow a deeper draft while sailing, and the boat will be entirely made of carbon, with Nomex interiors, to keep the displacement at a minimum. The mast will rise to 46+ metres above the waterline, and will feature runners to allow for a square-top mainsail. Lateral waterballasts, of more than 9 tons each side, increase the boat's power and limit the heel.

The deck features a huge cockpit, with a guests area, a technical area and a large aft sundeck. The dinghy garage door also serves as a bathing platform. The panoramic coachroof allows a 360° vision to the sea from the deck saloon. The owner's and guests cabins (all but one) are located in front of this saloon. Aft, there is another guests cabin, a technical compartment, the galley, and a comfortable living area for the crew, with a mess, two cabins and two bathrooms.

The boat will be built by Maxi Dolphin, in Italy. François Boucher is the Project Manager.

The general design, shapes, style, appendages, structures, etc are entirely made in-house by finot-conq, as well as the interior architecture.

Decoration will be done by Pierre Frutschi, and the structural validation by Paolo Manganelli of SP.*

Look at this beauty:
































































Just a comment. I really hate to see those 100ft racing with 25 crew members sitting on the side as ballast. That seems to me slave labor and makes no sense on today's world. This one has more than 9000 kg of water ballast on each side, maximized by a considerable beam. That would correspond to about 100 crew members sitting on the side


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## PCP

Many here would agree with this:

*"... among the many things I had learnt was, a bigger boat doesn't make you happier, but it cost more not only to build but also in upkeep. It is also more difficult to manoeuvre and find a place for in harbour. It shore has many advantages like speed and carrying capacity and prestige but they did not mean much for me, so weighing it al together as one has to do I understood that my values and my heart favoured the small one."*

*But hardly someone would think on one of those to cruise offshore:*










*and much less to cross the Atlantic*.

Well, *at the nice age of 72 Yrvind is doing it!*

A crazy and irresponsible guy that don't know nothing about sailing and the sea?!!!! Well, a bit crazy he may be but also an incomparably more experienced sailor than myself and probably you. He is doing it *AGAIN*.

Sven Yrvind (born April 22, 1939 in Gothenburg, Sweden as Sven Lundin) is a Swedish sailor, boat builder, and writer. He is famous for sailing alone across oceans in tiny boats of his own design.

Yrvind designs and builds the boats he sails. The boats lack all forms of electronic communications equipment.

Yrvind built his first boat 'Bris I' in his mothers basement 1971-1972. The boat's size was determined by the size of the basement: length 6.00 meter, width 1.72m, depth 0.40/0.90m.

'Bris II' was built 1976-1978 with the dimensions length 5.90 meter, width 2.40m, depth 1.40m.

A later boat, 'Yrvind', at an ambitious 4.1m, eventually turned out to be too small and too slow to make major ocean passages in cold waters.

Yrvind has made several ocean crossings in his tiny boats. In 1980, Yrvind rounded Cape Horn in 'Bris II', a 20'/5.90m boat of his own design, alone and in the middle of winter, a record for smallest boat to round the Cape. This achievement won Yrvind the 1980 Royal Cruising Club medal for seamanship. In the Roaring Forties he allegedly collided with a whale.

* Sven set sail in 'Yrvind 1/2' for Florida on August 11th, 2011.*

Sven Yrvind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And it is still at the middle of the Ocean. He had arrived safely at Madeira and sailed away at 12 October. I fear for him because this year the Atlantic is particularly bad. The guys from the Jacques Fabre Transat, not very far away from were he is got 60K winds and huge winds. One open 60 broke and sank and many other boats, crippled, had to retire from the race and return to Açores.

You can follow is route here:

Welcome to Sven Yrvind- the official website

Now about the boat that seems very interesting to me, it has 4.8 meter and it is inspired by Matt Layden's "Paradox"

PARADOX.

The boat is built with divinycell, fiberglass, carbon fiber and epoxy and it is a lot nicer than paradox. One of the interesting features is the absence of keel, centerboard or any movable foils. The boat can go upwind siting on especially designed chines, a system invented by Layden.

Take a look at the boat (*movie*):






*And don't miss this*:

My Life

This is the autobiographic life story of Yrvind and it should be made in a book. It is truly amazing. I would say that I was reading a story by Kurt Vonnegut, except this one is for real What a character, what a story!!!


----------



## G1000

Take a look at Yrvind demonstrates his boat. Ocean crossing on micro-cruising boat is just crazy stuff!


----------



## PCP

Beautiful and fast boat, the Grand Soleil 39 and with a good cruising interior, I really like this one:





































I have already posted about this one but I could not resist to these nice images and there is a new test sail and a movie of it by the sail magazine SoloVela. Once again very nice, a boat that will not go out of fashion because it is not fashionable , it is just classic. Its has the simplicity and beauty of a truly great design.

Take a look at the *movie*, a nice one:






..


----------



## PCP

New test with sail video for the Dehler 41, from the German magazine "Yacht".

*MOVIE:*

Dehler 41: Variantenreich, schick und agil - YACHT-TV | YACHT.DE

A great performance cruiser at a good price, but I still don't like the interior

...


----------



## PCP

For the ones that "feel" that light boats are not strong enough I have something to show: A movie with the incredible rescue of a boat from the beach.

The story is simple, one of the racers from the last mini transat just closed the eyes and as he was very tired he sleep a bit more than what he intended and end up on the beach.

After finishing a lot of other solo racers went to give a help and with a fishing boat pulling they managed to put the boat on the water.

The images are impressive and this was the second rescue attempt (the first one failed). That boat not only suffered from being battered by waves and breakers (bad weather, this day was the one with the better sea) and from being pulled two times and yet the only damage was on the rudders.

Congratulations to the structures shipyard, the ones that make the Pogo (the boat was a mini Pogo 2), for the quality and resistance of its boats and congratulations to the team spirit and solidarity of the mini racers

The* MOVIE *(from Voile et Voiliers):

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/les-videos/mini-transat-650-incroyable-desechouage-de-renaud-mary-/

Actually that solo sailor made a mistake: He let, relatively near the coast, the boat in autopilot in wind mode while taking a nap. I now that wind mode is very convenient but when you take a nap neat the coast it is a forbidden thing. The wind can change (and it changed) and the boat just follows the wind and in this case the wind just take it to the shore breakers resulting in a hard landing on the beach.


----------



## PCP

I don't like center cockpits in small boats. In less than 45 ft they just make the boat high and ugly and even 45 is a bit small for a nice sailboat.

Saare has released recently its new 38 and frankly the boat looks a lot better to me than its first boat, the center cockpit Saare 41.

Well not anymore, the Estonian shipyard has just announced a remake of the 41, but now as a aft cockpit boat.

It is much better looking, 600kg lighter, it will be a better sailboat and even without the 600kg, not a light one with its 9.9 of displacement.



















The basic price is 327 600 € (including 17%VAT) but the boat will come with a lot of equipment like teak deck, AGM batteries and a diesel heater. Not cheap if compared with a jeanneau 409 but a lot less expensive than a Malo a Najad a Halberg Rassy or a X Yacht.

..


----------



## PCP

Do you know Saffier daysailors and week-end cruisers? They are well known in Europe since the smaller one won last year the European boat of the year contest. Saffier is a small Dutch shipyard specialized in high quality daysailors and weekend cruisers.

The boat are classic in appearance but have a modern bulbed keel and a spade rudder, are light and made with modern materials. The wooden old loock is just that, a look

The one I like more is the classic 10m week-end sailing boat that really is a beauty:





































http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy322/Paulo_Carvalho/Saffier_Sc10
m_009.jpg
































































The boat is light and has a high D/B ratio (it needed to have with that narrow hull) and contrary to what one could except is not boring to sail, just take a look at this movie from a sail test from Zeilen magazine :

*MOVIE:*

Saffier Sc 10M - Sport - Video - Zie.nl

Technical specifications Sc 10 m.

length 10,00 meter
width  2,50 meter
draught 1,13 meter
total weight 2,4 ton
keel weight 1 ton
mainsail 23,5 m2
jib 15,2 m2
light weather Genua	19,8 m2
gennaker 58 m2
spinnaker 52 m2


----------



## PCP

Lecture for the weekend:

*"HINTS AND ADVICE 
on rigging and tuning 
of your Seldén mast"*

http://www.c-yacht.com/upload/files/Download/Selden/Selden_rigging_ENG.pdf

This is a quite complete manual. It is a Selden one but what they say applies to most masts.


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## PCP

Some very rich guys have the good taste of having big beautiful sailboats instead of motorboats and they like to race. Take a look at these beautiful movies:











But you don't need to be rich to have a lot of fun sailing (theses guys are crazy). Beautiful traditional boats:


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## jppp

That Last video is fantastic! That is pure sailing joy


----------



## PCP

A post about a really extreme boat, a narrow one, a boat that is commercialized in America, is designed by an Australian and is made in Singapore: the Admiralty 30 OD.

The boat has a deep draft and a very strangely designed bulb. I think that it is designed to creates an up-force and that helps the boat to plan sooner.




























This movie was made with a a Swede one, imported by a local racer. He have been racing it with success. Jimmy Hellberg was close to win with it the big class in the Round Gotland offshore race (2th) one of the biggest races in Sweden.






He says about the boat:

*"It's pretty damn funny when you sometimes can keep the same speed of a 50fter in a small 30-footer ."
*
..
I'm used to plan and sail alone, as I sail a lot of surfing and the IOM (radio-controlled boat). I think that sailing should be fun, easy and inexpensive and does not involve as many people. Because then becomes increasingly complicated. After having taken some bigger boats I got tired of constantly pick up the crew and found the Admiralty 30 - a perfect boat is really fast even though you are alone or with two sails.

The narrow hull cleaves efficiently waves resulting in a very comfortable ride, even in rough seas, and the long foredeck makes it surprisingly dry back in the cockpit. The hull has almost no form stability, the stability is provided by the deep and 700 kg heavy bulb, making the boat heeled a lot initially but then the boat starts to get a lot of RM and ends up to be very stiff.

the boat is easy it to sail with littlet work. It has a self-tacking furler jib, fixed bowsprit, gennaker instead of spinnaker, mainsail with a fathead and without back brace ...The boat is completely focused on racing and Jimmy has already sailed Gotland Runt with it.










There is hardly a cabin but there is enough space under the deck to take a nap and get shelter. It is never boring as in a larger boat whenthe only thing to do is often just sitting on the rail. Here you are constantly active.

...










Because you can raise the keel and the rudder is in a cartridge the boat can easily be trailed.



















*The boat is extreme but fantastically exciting to sail and I think you get a lot of boat for the money.*

Technical characteristics

LOA 29' 11" 900 cm

LWL 27' 11 851 cm

Beam 5' 8" 173 cm

Draft (keel down) 7' 2" 220 cm

Draft (keel up) 2' 4" 71 cm

Displacement 2,425 lbs 1,100 kg

Ballast 1,543 lbs 700 kg

Sail Area 430 sf 40 sm

Spinnaker Area 612 sf 53 sm

SA/DSPL 30.63

It uses as auxiliary just a small outboard and that will give it plenty power.










The boat price in the States is $51,995.00-


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Take a look at Yrvind demonstrates his boat. Ocean crossing on micro-cruising boat is just crazy stuff!


I had missed that one. Obviously Yrvind gives a lot of thought to each detail and this boat has good materials everywhere, lots of carbon.

While I was looking at it I found this one with Bris, its older boat, a much less researched one to my eyes, but that nonetheless had taken him and is Girl first from France to Ireland and then from France to Terra Nova (New found land).

What I really found delicious is the way he found to transport the boat






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

They had already shown a sketch but these are the first realistic drawings of the Dufour 36 performance and it looks a very promising boat. It looks beautiful to me 




























Technical Specifications

LOA : 10,99 m 
LWL : 10,21 m 
Beam: 3,61 m 
Draft: 2,20 m 
Weight: 6,4 t 
Ballast/ratio: 1,9 t / 31% 
Main sail: 40,6 m² 
Genoa (114%): 31,5 m²

The boat with a beam of 3,61m and a 31% ballast ratio, with all the ballast down in a bulb down at 2.2m, is going to be stiff. 31% does not appear to be a lot but that 31% would correspond to a much bigger number if the boat had instead a non bulbed fin keel with a smaller draft.

With a similar keel and with the bulb 25cm up (less 25cm of draft) the Jeanneau 379 has a B/D ratio of 26,5%. No, it is not the Jeanneau that has a bad B/D ratio. On another thread with some basic calculations I estimated that ratio would roughly correspond to the same GZ of the Catalina 385.

It really is the new Dufour that will be a very stiff boat. I hope they will not change those numbers


----------



## daviid

*Dufour 36e*

Hi Paulo

That dufour 36e looks like a real beauty.

Any idea when they are planning to make it available and pricing?

My calcs show the following:

D/L - 168 - will be a good light wind performer
SA/D - 19.2 - fairly low compared to Salona 38 which is 26.4 ...
B/D - 29.7 - this what my calculator shows  but I am sure that AVS will be high given the depth of the keel and the bulb
L/B - 3.04 - moderate beam by modern standards
Draught - 2.2m - may be too deep if you are planning to use it as a performance cruiser - I am sure that the standard version will be around 1.95

There is definitely space for a 36e in their lineup given that they have the 34 e and the 40e is the next one up in terms of size.

I like the position of the galley ( not a bow to stern layout) as well and the fact that they are offering it with 2 berths as opposed to 3.

All the best

David


----------



## Frederick32

-----------------------------------------


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> That dufour 36e looks like a real beauty.
> 
> Any idea when they are planning to make it available and pricing?
> 
> My calcs show the following:
> 
> D/L - 168 - will be a good light wind performer
> SA/D - 19.2 - fairly low compared to Salona 38 which is 26.4 ...
> B/D - 29.7 - this what my calculator shows  but I am sure that AVS will be high given the depth of the keel and the bulb
> L/B - 3.04 - moderate beam by modern standards
> Draught - 2.2m - may be too deep if you are planning to use it as a performance cruiser - I am sure that the standard version will be around 1.95
> 
> There is definitely space for a 36e in their lineup given that they have the 34 e and the 40e is the next one up in terms of size.
> 
> I like the position of the galley ( not a bow to stern layout) as well and the fact that they are offering it with 2 berths as opposed to 3.
> 
> All the best
> 
> David


Hi David,

You are right, there are some error in those numbers: As you say with that Ballast and Displacement the D/B ratio would be 29.7%. Let's hope that the error is in the displacement that I find high for a performance 36ft.

Regarding to the sail area numbers you give I think there is a mistake. The SA/D for the given sail areas is 21.29 and not 19.2. Besides that boat has a small genoa (114%). With a 140% Genoa those numbers are going to be bigger.

The boat will be presented at the Paris boat show (December). They did not tell anything about the price.

This one will be in direct competition to a new Salona, a 35ft that is going to be presented at the Dusseldorf boat show (January), with Elan 350 and First 35.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

On the category of the dream boats, at least for me there is the TS50 and TS 52 that is just a small variation of the first. At least this one we can charter....

The boat is the kind of boat that is made by guys that know a lot about multihulls to sailors that know a lot about multihulls. Not a boat for a beginer, but what a boat



























































































*From a boat test sail by Multihulls magazine*:

*
At the origin of this catamaran -a prolific architect and fast catamaran enthusiast (Christophe Barreau) and a well-known ocean racer, the fastest man around the world singlehanded: Francis Joyon...

With such parentage, this catamaran could only be of noble birth, and particularly fun to sail. To judge for ourselves, we had an appointment in Martinique for a test sail. Just talking about it still makes me drool!

The conditions were windy: a steady 20knots, with gusts of up to 28. As
for the sea conditions in the Saint Lucia channel, they were rough, with waves of up to 2.5mand a very disorganised sea.

Wedged into the bucket seat, worthy of a sea-going formula 1... it was enough to sheet in slightly to feel the TS accelerate hard! The proof? After
a particularly successful missed tack by your humble servant, we went from 1 knot to 12 in less than 10 seconds. Clear, impressive acceleration, which above all puts all your senses on the alert!

But what pleasure! The boat slips through the water incredibly smoothly and
almost gives you the impression of being a good helmsman! And talking of the helm - the position is ideal, even though at the stern, given the speeds reached, you sometimes have the impression of facing a fire hose.

The tiller is little heavy, but once the 10-knot barrier is passed (i.e. immediately...) it becomes very pleasant. It demands a bit of strength, but nothing impossible, and above all you can really feel the boat.

A MUST! But what is most remarkable about the TS 50 is not the top speed (21.5 knots with 20 knots of wind in a wild surf...), but the impressive average speeds. Constantly between 16 and 20 knots in this rough sea, with fiendish acceleration: bear away and it accelerates. You would think you were
on a windsurfer.
...

CONCLUSION

But who is the TS 50 aimed at?
Undeniably at an experienced crew, who put the priority on performance, seakeeping qualities and life aboard in the 'nautical' sense of the term... It is a
pure pleasure to helm. To such a point that since these first impressions, I have just one wish: to test the machine over a week - the time it takes for a
rapid return trip to the Grenadines!*

You can read the full test here:

Catalogue - TS 50 - Xlight Catamaran - (Version PDF)

Or charter one here (with skipper):

location lagoon 440 aux antilles

Baies du monde

*Just take a look at the movie from that test sail*





test TS 52 _por multihulls-world_

Technical characteristics

Length 15.24 m
Beam 8.00 m
Draught 1.20 / 2,80 m
displacement 7 T
Mainsail area 82 m² + Mat aile en carbone
Genoa area 51 m²
Trinquette 19 m²
Motors 2 x 29 CV DIESEL
Fuel 160 Litres
Eau 220 Litres 
+ Dessalinisateur de 180 l/h

Architects Barreau

*Take a look at the Architect site*:

AC-TS50

....


----------



## nemier

Paulo,
Fantastic! 
The TS50 is just freakin' awesome. It pretty much grabs exactly what I have in my head as my idea of a perfect boat...(for me). Just looking now where I can put my wife's bath tub though . Just joking....(kind of...)
Thanks for posting it!


----------



## PCP

Hi Nemier!

Have you already decided on the Cat?

By now you should know by now more than me about cats, but do you know these ones? I have heard good things about.










Luxury Yachts and Catamarans for Sale from Cape Town South Africa | Admiral Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

I have already posted about the Finn Flyer 42 but this boat is so gorgeous...and a beautiful movie had appeared posted by a team that race the boat. The race is one of the more famous among the Nordic ones, this year's edition with 400 sailing boats, the Tjorn Runt offshore race:






Tjörn Runt Utvalda scener from Joel Kvarnsmyr on Vimeo.




























As you can see this is a fast boat

Here some very good photos of the Finn Flyer 42:

ff42_avantime_flickr-1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

.....


----------



## PCP

Do you know Philippe Poupon? If not that means you are not French neither a fan of solo sailing.

Poupon had participated in 2 Vendee Globe races, finished one in 3th, won 3 times La Figaro solitaire, had the record of the Atlantic Transat, and won one Route du Rhum in a big multihull, just to mention the more important.

So this guy, a racer on Open 60 and Big Multihulls has decided to go out cruising with his family, a big one with a dog included and not only he decided to circumnavigate but also make it by the most lonely and wild places in the planet.

With a help of a friend naval Architect, Joubert ( a big one best known by his multihulls design), Poupon has designed the boat to do it.

That's interesting eh! A guy with a huge knowledge of the sea and sailboat chose to design the perfect bluewater boat for cruising with the family in places where the sea is wild and sometimes with icebergs. The perfect high latitude bluewater boat.

Well, does he have chosen a beamy and powerfull boat based on an Open 60?

No!

Does he have chosen a big cruising multihull?

No!

In fact he had chosen what most French chose for long range cruising, a aluminum centerboard with some differences to what we can find on the market:

It is a big boat, more narrow than usual and it is a ketch!!!





































Take a look at this beautiful movie:






(to be continued)


----------



## PCP

Some more information about the boat and the sailing impressions by the skipper:

Philippe Poupon designed the Fleur Australe *after several years sailing the southern and Antarctic seas in his original 12-meter boat*.

Launched from La Rochelle in December 2008, the Fleur Australe is a nearly 20-meter sailboat designed by Philippe Poupon himself and built at the Meta shipyard in Lyon based on plans by Michel Joubert.

The new boat is designed for sailing and maritime observation in all latitudes. With its reinforced aluminum hull, watertight bulkheads, two heating systems and a pilot house, the prototype is custom designed for a trip through the ice. It can even withstand "growlers," chunks of ice that form as icebergs melt. With its drop keel lifted by a hydraulic jack and its shallow draft, it can easily navigate rivers and safely run aground.

The Fleur Australe is a ketch rig with a guyless carbon fiber mizzenmast, and its aft deck has space for two dinghies specially equipped for more advanced sample taking and observations.

The boat left France in February 2009 for its first 8-month expedition through the Atlantic, Arctic and Pacific Oceans. Its second journey is now underway, this time a 3-year voyage that will take it from the North to the South Pole.

After his initial outings and his first expedition, Philippe Poupon expressed complete satisfaction with the boat's performance:

"It's a good boat, and has worked well and effectively since it was launched. It's a real pleasure to sail, and with the enclosed cockpit, you feel like you're driving in a big slipper! What a dream! We made some good choices, and I have no regrets about the decisions we made. We had a good team that applied all its expertise and experience toward achieving the objectives we had set, and what an excellent result!

The sailboat remains balanced at every speed and stable upwind at slower speeds, especially for a drop-keel boat that has to solve the sticky equation of rudder size and efficiency.

No problems with the sails, there's a good balance, each sail is the right size, and the gennaker is perfect in terms of cut and recovery (it is a little strained and a little fragile, we'll go easy on it so it lasts). Running before the wind, its large booms make it easy to use and replace a spinnaker that would require more delicate maneuvering.

The two masts are perfect. The main mast is simple and robust, and the two well blocked, vertical booms do not cause any problems maneuvering. The mast steps in the shrouds and the crow's nest were helpful several times in detecting shoals. The carbon fiber after mast does an excellent job as derrick, and is sufficiently stiff at sea.

The cockpit and the rigging for the sheets, rollers, boom preventers and runners work perfectly, and the electric winch for the gennaker rollers and furling system is ideal.

Running upwind, with 25/30 knots, the boat moves quickly and the rudder does not stall.

The autopilot reacts efficiently. Both cylinders were used, and the little Lecombe and Schmit is enough. The rudder is well offset and its modest size makes it highly effective. A self-cleaning propeller improves the rear water flow and drag.

No problems with the various foils, propeller rudder or skeg in front of the main rudder.

The keel functions perfectly. Running aground on several sand banks and the ice field gave us a chance to test its usefulness. Between the thruster and the rudder, we had no difficulty floating off.

The opening created when the keel is down in the centerboard housing bubbles slightly in certain ocean conditions with swell. We felt the jolts from the bottom of the well deck. This didn't seem to affect speed, since the boat surfs well downwind. We kept up good speeds of 10 knots, with peaks up to 13 knots, before a 25-30 knot wind.

The rudder in front of the propeller is effective under certain strong wind conditions when we need to pivot the boat to leave a mooring.

When mooring, the hydraulic anchor windlass controlled from the cockpit is a marvel, and the chain counter completes the system perfectly.

The aft boarding ladders are amazing and more effective than I had even hoped. Berthing the dinghy aft, getting into and out of the dinghy, everything can be done in complete security. The handrails, the dive ladder, all of it works perfectly.

The aft decks for the dinghy, with the mizzenmast as a derrick, are very practical.

Thanks to its excellent insulation, the Fleur Australe provides a great deal of food and energy reserve autonomy. Most power is supplied by solar panels and a wind turbine. Fuel oil is used only for heating and to run the generator that is still required in certain extreme conditions.

The boat's enclosed cockpit makes life on board considerably more comfortable. The versatile space can be used for sleeping, eating or even working (keeping watch, taking the helm or navigating) thanks to its panoramic view.

The large head is optimally laid out for cooking just like at home, including a stovetop and oven. These features make the Fleur Australe a comfortable living space even for long missions.

The Fleur Australe, which can house a crew of up to eight, carries all the necessary safety equipment including exposure suits for each crew member, distress beacons, radar, satellite communications, and weather forecasts. Still, having children on board required a few additional features, such as nets installed between the guard lines and custom life vests.

Fleur Australe - Fleur Australe EN

The boat does not appear to be particularly fast to me, considering that it is an almost 20m boat, but when one chose to have a boat to live like home you pay that in weight and speed. I guess that Philippe wife had a definitive say about that

They don't say but the boat only in tankage carries 5000 L of fuel and 2000 L of water, that makes about 7T only in tankage weight

Technical characteristics:

LOA 19,26 m
LWL 17,13 m
Beam 5,35 m
Draft 1,65-3,75 m
Displ. 34 t loaded
Ballast 5 t
Sails 163 m2
Fuel 5 000 l
Water 2 000 l
Material Srongal (thick aluminum)

Architects Joubert / Nivelt
Shipyard Meta

Take a look at the ballast and you will see that it appears to be ridiculously low, as much as the tankage weight. This means that on this boat the weight distribution was essential and that the skipper had to take care of that at all times.

The boat has a rather uncommon skeg and ruder(s) arrangement, have a look at that and at the hull:




























And some other pictures:





































You can also see some good photos here:

Philippe Poupon évalue Fleur Australe

Well, and the boat is for sale, if you want to buy it:

fleur australe

You can find 11 interesting movies about their voyage. I will post this one that is in English:






And this one on Canada:


----------



## PCP

They have announced the new Salona 35 for Dusseldorf, in January, but the boat is already on the water, probably testing and it is a gorgeous boat










They have posted in their site some information about the boat with some photo realistic images, but the real boat is a lot nicer























































They say about the new boat:

*Every Salona is a result of teamwork of external and internal designers among which we are proud to men¬tion J&J Salona 35 designers, Jason Ker (keel optimization), many Olympic and professional sailors, interior designers, suppliers and most importantly existing cruising or racing Salona customers. All these people have one simple goal - to design and build globally competitive fast sailing yachts that can win any regatta but at the same time have uncompromised comfort and safety while cruising.*

Well, they don't say much

The technical characteristics say more:

LWL	9,16 m
B. max. (deck)	3,36 m
Draft	1,5 / 1,75 / 2,15 m
Balast	1200-1500 kg
DSPL empty 4900 kg
Mainsail full batten	32,00 m2
Genoa furling	37,50 m2
Sail area total	69,50 m2
Fresh water tank	200 l
Black water tank	42 l
Fuel tank	90 l
Engine	15,3 kW (21 HP)
Design Category	A (Ocean)
CE Certification	GL
Design	J&J

These seems to be the 34 hull (that was a recent one) with a two wheel setup, retouched keel and a more modern cabin design and interior. It has the same weight but more 100kg of ballast and that permits more 2 sqm of sail.

Light and with a lot of sail and a relatively narrow hull this, like the 34, is going to be a fast boat.

A 25% B/D ratio (on a 2.15m keel) seems not very substantial but that should indicate a torpedo keel to maximize RM and limit the needed weight. The 1,5m draft keel will have a more substantial 31% B/D for an equivalent RM.


----------



## daviid

*Boat Design Now and Then*

Hi Folks

I have heard it said that in the good old days, boats were designed to sail well in the first place and the accommodation was designed around this requirement. Safety was an integral part of designing a good sailing yacht. Nowadays, accomodation and comfort is the primary driver and acceptable sailing performance is the new benchmark for many yacht designs. Safety is measured by the Stix and AVS ratings together with the stability curve which most manufacturers are not too keen to make public. This has already been discussed to some extent on this thread and I don't wish to revisit that rabbit hole. The point is that we are often left to form our own opinions regarding safety by considering the boat's reserve stability via it's B/D ratio and its form stability by looking at the hull and keel shape.

The latest postings on the Salona 35 which shows a B/D of 25% on a 2.15m keel with bulb and therefore low centre of gravity and the new Dufour 36e which shows a B/D of 29.7% on a 2.20m bulb keel leaves me thinking that perhaps these boats are being designed with too much emphasis on speed where weight is a primary concern and not enough on safety. There are many other examples where the new B/D norm appears to be way less than 30% with stability relying primarily on form stability via a beam carried far back as well as through the use of hard chines. This design is in sharp contrast to the advice given by the Pardey's in the September issue of Sail magazine where they were advocating a high B/D ratio for cruising - such as that found on a Catalina 38 where the B/D is around 39%. I understand that the primary use of a Salona 35 and a Dufour 36e is probably not cruising but surely there is a common denominator as regards safety in all boats.

Form stability is great as long as the boat is not knocked down in a broach or whatever. At this point, reserve stability is what counts in terms of the boat righting itself and righting as quickly as possible. A boat which stands out for me in the modern crop of boats is the Salona 38 which has a B/D of 36% and a standard draught of 1.98. If my memory serves me, I seem to remember that Paulo has asked Salona to increase the weight of the bulb over and above this so it seems fair to assume that this is a primary concern of his too?

My personal interest is to cruise but to have fun whilst doing so, so if I can get from A to B quickly, then all the better. With the exception of the Salona 37 and Salona 38, most performance cruisers that I been tracking - Elan 37 and 380, First 35 and First 36.7, Dufour 34e and 36e and Jeanneau Sunfast 37 - have B/D ratios from around 30% to 33% whilst the cruisers with good performance (Jeanneau 36i Performance, Beneteau Oceanis 37, Hanse 385, SO379, Dufour375) all seem to have B/D ratios of around 27/28%. The standout in this last grouping as regards B/D is the Elan Impression 384 with a B/D of 32.6 and a Stix of 40!! (but unfortunately the boat is heavier and pays for it on the performance side) I am constrained by budget and so my universe excludes the likes of Malo, HR, Najad, Grand Soleil, Solaris et al

The question is therefore: have we been brainwashed by the various manufacturers to accept a yacht with a reserve stability that is lower than it used to be on account of improved form stability through hull and keel design?

Comments?

David


----------



## nemier

PCP said:


> Hi Nemier!
> 
> Have you already decided on the Cat?
> 
> By now you should know by now more than me about cats, but do you know these ones? I have heard good things about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luxury Yachts and Catamarans for Sale from Cape Town South Africa | Admiral Yachts
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo,
No, I have not decided on the Cat and it's quite a long story, one better told over a cool beer  I have not been on Sailnet for quite some time, perhaps 6 months? - though I'd drop by from time-to-time, to get my sailing fix 
I've been hanging out on the Nordhavn Dreamers site, because we were all set to buy a Nordhavn 62  My wife and I fell in love with the boat and the idea of how she'd traverse the world with us. That plan has sort-of been pulled away from us because the particular boat we were after is already selling. 
Sooo, I'm busy making Lemonade over here. Every cloud has a silver lining though, and perhaps my love of sailing can be fulfilled after all. My wife has been spoiled by boats that don't heal anymore so the obvious choice is a Cat & I've only started half-hearted looking last week.

We are still forging away with the plan though. We are selling our house next spring to finance the boat, and hopefully heading out in the next year or two.
I guess it's going to be interesting to see what we actually end up with? In the mean time, we're using our own boat every time I'm home. I was just flipping through my log and we've cruised over 3500 miles in the last two years...

OK, back to Cats...The Admiral seems a fine yacht but not sure about the weight. I'd personally prefer a helm station further aft as well, on the hulls like Catanas, Nautitechs or Priveleges. I haven't seen one yet that really appeals to me (apart from anything designed by Ron Given) but they are all one-off's. Something always seems to be missing. Anyway, they certainly represent the best choice for me at the moment. I'm looking every single day and I'm lovin' it.  Ciao.


----------



## PCP

nemier said:


> Hi Paulo,
> No, I have not decided on the Cat and it's quite a long story, one better told over a cool beer  I have not been on Sailnet for quite some time, perhaps 6 months? - though I'd drop by from time-to-time, to get my sailing fix
> I've been hanging out on the Nordhavn Dreamers site, because we were all set to buy a Nordhavn 62  My wife and I fell in love with the boat and the idea of how she'd traverse the world with us. That plan has sort-of been pulled away from us because the particular boat we were after is already selling.
> Sooo, I'm busy making Lemonade over here. Every cloud has a silver lining though, and perhaps my love of sailing can be fulfilled after all. My wife has been spoiled by boats that don't heal anymore so the obvious choice is a Cat & I've only started half-hearted looking last week.
> 
> We are still forging away with the plan though. We are selling our house next spring to finance the boat, and hopefully heading out in the next year or two.
> I guess it's going to be interesting to see what we actually end up with? In the mean time, we're using our own boat every time I'm home. I was just flipping through my log and we've cruised over 3500 miles in the last two years...
> 
> ....


From a fast Multihull to a Nordhavn 62? You are really undiceded about the type of boat you are going to have










Well that has a huge maintenance and will cost a fortune in diesel just to cross the Atlantic, not to mention a circumnavigation.

If what you want is a very strong steel and seaworthy boat why not opt by a boat that can motor most of the time but that can also sail well in the trade winds, a steel one with a great interior:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats-14.html

By the price of the used Nordhvavn you cab buy a new big one, but that would to be a waste money. You could just buy this one that seems to be finished by the owner: That's a 48ft 2000 boat (not a great finish) and by that price you could have a complete refit at the factory and even so it would not be expensive.



















This boat can carry about 1300L of water and 1100L of fuel and I am sure it as space and loading capacity for more tankage.

The finish is not luxurious but it is functional:









































































For Sale. Noordkaper 48 - Schepenkring verkoopsteiger Lelystad, Netherlands - 3118359

Or you can be smarter and buy an almost new and properly finished 43ft. The boat has almost the same diesel Tankage :1000l and that on a 110cv low rpm engine gives at an economic cruising speed for almost two weeks. This is also a good sailing boat, providing you have trade winds and you will get them most of the time on a crossing.

Take a look at this 40ft and see how it sails:











They work well under engine. Here you have a 46ft:






The 43 that I was talking about is this one, a 2007 boat that they say it is like new:









































































http://www.noordkaper.com/images-verkoop/bolder/ForSaleNoordkaper43 .pdf

Noordkaper 40 - 43 - 46 - 52 - 56 - 60

Regarding the Nordhavn, why do you think there are so many for sell?

I don't think they have any problem, I believe that the running cost in what concerns voyaging are so high that even the rich guys find that too much.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

Hey Paulo,
Great post, and true to your thread---Interesting Sailboats!---
I found the post useful (earned you another Rep Point ) and I will be researching the Noordkapers some more. I had forgot about them.

I could get into the N62 reasoning but it would take us off topic. Someone could start another thread or PM me if interested. I'm in Thailand right now, woke up this morning, grabbed a cup of coffee and actually raced to the computer to see if there was any more info in this thread. Great work Dude, honestly...:thewave:


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Hi Folks
> 
> I have heard it said that in the good old days, boats were designed to sail well in the first place and the accommodation was designed around this requirement. Safety was an integral part of designing a good sailing yacht. Nowadays, accomodation and comfort is the primary driver and acceptable sailing performance is the new benchmark for many yacht designs. Safety is measured by the Stix and AVS ratings together with the stability curve which most manufacturers are not too keen to make public. This has already been discussed to some extent on this thread and I don't wish to revisit that rabbit hole. The point is that we are often left to form our own opinions regarding safety by considering the boat's reserve stability via it's B/D ratio and its form stability by looking at the hull and keel shape.
> 
> The latest postings on the Salona 35 which shows a B/D of 25% on a 2.15m keel with bulb and therefore low centre of gravity and the new Dufour 36e which shows a B/D of 29.7% on a 2.20m bulb keel leaves me thinking that perhaps these boats are being designed with too much emphasis on speed where weight is a primary concern and not enough on safety. There are many other examples where the new B/D norm appears to be way less than 30% with stability relying primarily on form stability via a beam carried far back as well as through the use of hard chines. This design is in sharp contrast to the advice given by the Pardey's in the September issue of Sail magazine where they were advocating a high B/D ratio for cruising - such as that found on a Catalina 38 where the B/D is around 39%. I understand that the primary use of a Salona 35 and a Dufour 36e is probably not cruising but surely there is a common denominator as regards safety in all boats.


Hi David!

I guess you are mixing things a bit. The Dufour 36 and the Salona 35 are definitively not boats designed around accommodations. These are boats designed to sail well first and then to have decent accommodations. Off course all boats are compromises and an ocean racing boat will even be more turned towards a sailing good performance ( that includes safety) and will only provide the minimum to live spartanly on the boat for one or two weeks time.

People tend to believe that ocean racers are more dangerous and less seaworthy than mass production boats. It is normally the opposite and the reason is simple: Most cruising boats will do coastal sailing and even those that go offshore when facing bad weather will take defensive tactics and chose the route with nicer weather.

Many times ocean races go deliberately for stronger winds and bigger seas because they will be faster there and when things go nasty they still try to continue to race and win distance over the others, while a cruiser would be taking defensive measures. So the strain that an offshore race boat is expected to support is much bigger than the one a cruiser boat is expected to endure, and the boats are designed accordingly, or at least should be.

The type of boats the Dufour and Salona belongs are a medium compromise.

We can stay that they compromise little towards sailing while other boats like for instance deck saloons, center cockpit boats or simply fat boats compromise much more their sailing performance to be more spacious and more comfortable inside.

Regarding Stix most NA finds that it is a misleading reference and I have the same opinion. The thing is pretty useless.

Stability curves are important, providing you know how to read them, but they only told half the story. They only refer to static Stability while they don't told anything about dynamic stability that is as important.

Regarding that Catalina story in what regards modern Catalinas go here and see what I have said about it on the thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/80211-new-catalina-385-a-2.html

Fin ballasted keels, iron or lead, cannot be compared in what concerns B/D ratio with keels with a foil and a bulb at the end. You have to look at stability Rm curves to compare. The ones with a torpedo on the bottom, like this Dufour 36e or the Salona 35 need a lot less ballast to make the same RM and therefore its B/D ratio even if smaller can be compared in the produced RM with a bigger ratio if that one belongs to a boat with a keel without a bulb (assuming equal draft).



daviid said:


> Form stability is great as long as the boat is not knocked down in a broach or whatever. At this point, reserve stability is what counts in terms of the boat righting itself and righting as quickly as possible. A boat which stands out for me in the modern crop of boats is the Salona 38 which has a B/D of 36% and a standard draught of 1.98. If my memory serves me, I seem to remember that Paulo has asked Salona to increase the weight of the bulb over and above this so it seems fair to assume that this is a primary concern of his too?
> 
> My personal interest is to cruise but to have fun whilst doing so, so if I can get from A to B quickly, then all the better. With the exception of the Salona 37 and Salona 38, most performance cruisers that I been tracking - Elan 37 and 380, First 35 and First 36.7, Dufour 34e and 36e and Jeanneau Sunfast 37 - have B/D ratios from around 30% to 33% whilst the cruisers with good performance (Jeanneau 36i Performance, Beneteau Oceanis 37, Hanse 385, SO379, Dufour375) all seem to have B/D ratios of around 27/28%. The standout in this last grouping as regards B/D is the Elan Impression 384 with a B/D of 32.6 and a Stix of 40!! (but unfortunately the boat is heavier and pays for it on the performance side) I am constrained by budget and so my universe excludes the likes of Malo, HR, Najad, Grand Soleil, Solaris et al
> 
> The question is therefore: have we been brainwashed by the various manufacturers to accept a yacht with a reserve stability that is lower than it used to be on account of improved form stability through hull and keel design?
> 
> Comments?
> 
> David


Well, it is difficult to answer to that last question and it is true that I would prefer a more ballasted Salona 35 (or Dufour 36p) but that is just because I want not only a fast boat but also a very stiff boat because I want to sail the boat solo offshore and possibly crossing the pond.

It will be safer? Yes I thing so. It is the Salona 35 unsafe to sail offshore: certainly not. I have not seen the stability curve of the 35 but I bet that has lots of righting moment at 90º heel.

Comparing its B/D ratio with the Salona 38 it is not correct because the Salona 38 does not have a torpedo keel (I want one) and a torpedo keel is more efficient in what regards righting moment ( the one that is on the 38 was chosen mostly because it is less expensive to made and also on account of handicap racing).

This kind of boats are more stiff than most of the ones that have a more compromised sail performance by their interior volume. Just compare the prices of the Benetau First line with the ones from the Benetau Oceanis line.

There are cruisers with a better interior that are as stiff or more than these performance cruisers ? Shure! The ones I like more are the X yacht line of cruising sailboats, but the Halberg Rassy or the Malo also fits the profile. They are very stiff and seaworthy boats even if considerably less fast especially in light winds.

Why there are not more? Because it is expensive to make stiff boats and because most of the sailors don't need them. The First look eventually not as luxurious as the Oceanis but are considerably more expensive, the same with the Elan performance line comparing with the performance cruiser line.

If they made the "cruising" line as stiff and with as good hardware as the performance line, than they would be more expensive than the ones from the performance line and who would buy them if the "neighbor" was selling apparently equal boats, but much more cheaply? Most of the sailors would not see any difference, except price.

It is a thing that one should have in consideration? Well, it depend, for most sailors that are coastal cruisers and don't go out with more than 25K wind, no! The modern boats are well designed and can take more than the vast majority can endure. For the minority that wants a more seaworthy and stiff boat because sails in higher winds or sails offshore or want a better bluewater boat with a better performance in heavier weather, Yes!

You are right in what concerns the cruising Elans they are, among the more fat cruising boats, between the group of the more stiff ones (Delphia too and some Hanse as well as the Vision line of Bavaria). Well I should not have said stiff because the last Oceanis 41 I am sure is a very stiff boat even if that stifmess comes mostly from hull stability. I was more thinking about stiffness at higher angles of heel and with a better reserve stability.

But there are something you have said that does not seem true to me: I don't think that neither the Salona 35 nor the Dufour 36e are very beamy boats and they are not examples of boats that take most of the stability from form stability, particularly the Salona.

For instance the Bavaria 36 has a beam of 3,67, the new jeanneau 379 (that is a 36fter) has 3.76, the Oceanis 34 has 3.65 (all in m). The Dufour 36e has 3.61 but the Salona 35 only has 3.36m while the first has 3.64.

This Salona 35 has already more 100kg of ballast than the previous model and the god thing with those guys is that they really listen the clients instead of trying to convince them that what they have is perfect for all. Probably they would agree in putting more 150/175kg on that bulb if a costumer wants the boat that way (they can do that because the steel grid that sustain the keel and connects the shrouds, distributing all the forces to the hull is over-sized ) and that would be enough for having a more stiff boat with a better reserve stability, a boat that would dispense guys on the side to go really fast on medium heather and that would be a better sailboat with heavy weather at the cost of a slightly worse performance in light wind. That will cost some extra money but that is not something that it would make the price skyrocket (I would say something about 5000€ over the lead keel option).

Bottom point: are all cruising boats the same? definitively not and you need to now something about boats if your choice is not only determined (as it is for most) by the prettiest and more comfortable interior.

But that does not mean that the boats that are on the market are not good, quite the opposite, there are almost no bad boats. The competition is so hard that the bad boats don't have place. Talking about the Oceanis 41 for example, even if it is not the boat that I want it is a very smart and well design boat that would suit much more people than the Salona 41, for instance. Off course I would not be one of them, but that is another story

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

Hi Paulo

Thanks for all the input - I am learning all the time.



PCP said:


> Hi David!
> 
> Many times ocean races go deliberately for stronger winds and bigger seas because they will be faster there and when things go nasty they still try to continue to race and win distance over the others, while a cruiser would be taking defensive measures. So the strain that an offshore race boat is expected to support is much bigger than the one a cruiser boat is expected to endure, and the boats are designed accordingly, or at least should be.
> 
> Agreed. Performance cruisers should have better stability curves as they will be pushed harder.
> 
> Stability curves are important, providing you know how to read them, but they only told half the story. They only refer to static Stability while they don't told anything about dynamic stability that is as important.
> 
> Agreed, thanks for reminding me about dynamic stability versus static stability.
> 
> Regarding that Catalina story in what regards modern Catalinas go here and see what I have said about it on the thread:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/80211-new-catalina-385-a-2.html
> 
> A fascinating read. I have copied the key part of a long discussion for everyone's benefit.
> 
> "However there are a common misconception that a superior B/D is always better than a lower one and the Catalina 385 has a big one (33.5%) if we compare it to European boats or to more modern designs.
> 
> European cruisers has for around 2m draft a B/D between 26% and 30%, that is a lot less than on the Catalina 385. At a first glance costumers would think that the Catalina is a more stiff and seaworthy boat.
> 
> But wait a minute, the Catalina with shallow draft was a remarkably bigger B/D than the fin keel (37.6% to 33.5%) that would mean that the shallow boat is more stiff? Of course not, the boat has to have more ballast to compensate the higher CG of its keel.
> 
> But all the European boats have keels with bulbs and that would not make them having a much lower center of gravity?
> 
> Of course. A bulbed keel will need about 30 or 35% less ballast than a keel like the one on the Catalina. While the CG of the Catalina keel is on the half of its draft or even less, the one of a bulbed keel is on the last 2/3 or 3/4 of the keel, depending if it is lead or iron that is used as ballast.
> 
> If we take for example the new Jeanneau 376 that has 6700kg of displacement for a Ballast of 1775kg we will see that the B/D is only 26.5%, a low value if compared with the 33.5% of the Catalina 385. But if we correct the value, taking into attention the bulbed keel and join more 30% to the Jeanneu ballast, the comparable value will be 34.4% a more or less similar value."
> 
> Fin ballasted keels, iron or lead, cannot be compared in what concerns B/D ratio with keels with a foil and a bulb at the end. You have to look at stability Rm curves to compare. The ones with a torpedo on the bottom, like this Dufour 36e or the Salona 35 need a lot less ballast to make the same RM and therefore its B/D ratio even if smaller can be compared in the produced RM with a bigger ratio if that one belongs to a boat with a keel without a bulb (assuming equal draft).
> 
> The bottom line therefore seems to be that, in the absence of a RM stability curve, we need to calculate an effective B/D ratio for bulbed keels before comparing them to the B/D ratio for non bulb keels on account of the lower centre of gravity.
> 
> Comparing its B/D ratio with the Salona 38 it is not correct because the Salona 38 does not have a torpedo keel (I want one) and a torpedo keel is more efficient in what regards righting moment ( the one that is on the 38 was chosen mostly because it is less expensive to made and also on account of handicap racing).
> 
> I do not know the shape of the keel on the Salona 38, but are you saying that there is a difference between a spade keel - as found on the Beneteau Oceanis 37 and the Jeanneau 36i - and a torpedo keel? Surely the difference that their shape has in relation to a torpedo will have minimal effect to the centre of gravity and therefore the effective B/D?
> 
> It is a thing that one should have in consideration? Well, it depend, for most sailors that are coastal cruisers and don't go out with more than 25K wind, no! The modern boats are well designed and can take more than the vast majority can endure. For the minority that wants a more seaworthy and stiff boat because sails in higher winds or sails offshore or want a better bluewater boat with a better performance in heavier weather, Yes!
> 
> Agreed but weather being as unpredictable as it is, even if we plan to sail in a decent weather window, we may be caught out in a blow in which case better stability will pay off.
> 
> But there are something you have said that does not seem true to me: I don't think that neither the Salona 35 nor the Dufour 36e are very beamy boats and they are not examples of boats that take most of the stability from form stability, particularly the Salona.
> 
> For instance the Bavaria 36 has a beam of 3,67, the new jeanneau 379 (that is a 36fter) has 3.76, the Oceanis 34 has 3.65 (all in m). The Dufour 36e has 3.61 but the Salona 35 only has 3.36m while the first has 3.64.
> 
> Agreed re beaminess on the Salona 35 and the Dufour 36e but then the reserve stability is even more important but the published B/D needs to be adjusted as you have pointed out above
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


All the best

David


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> I do not know the shape of the keel on the Salona 38, but are you saying that there is a difference between a spade keel - as found on the Beneteau Oceanis 37 and the Jeanneau 36i - and a torpedo keel? Surely the difference that their shape has in relation to a torpedo will have minimal effect to the centre of gravity and therefore the effective B/D?


Yes David, that's just what I am saying. Let's see some keels in some recent boats:

Here you have the Dufour 335 keel










the Jeanneau 379 kee










The Benetau Oceanis 41 Keel










A Malo 37 keel










The Hanse 385 keel










The Dehler 41 Keel










Sly 42 Keel










Saare 38 keel










Solaris 37










Halberg Rassy 41










Tartan 4000










Catalina 385










Salona 38



















Salona 40










Salona 34










As you can see, lots of different keels, including a traditional (not to say old) non bulbed lead fin keel on the Catalina 385.

The finality of the keel is to permit the boat to sail upwind and to support the ballast lowering CG of the boat. The keel does not have to have a considerable lateral area. A foil is enough.

I bet you are thinking what is the more effective keel and materials? That's an easy one, a titanium foil cut from a massif block and with a low profile lead bulb, like this one from an Open 60:










Of course the cost is ridiculous. The next best thing is the same, a foil cut from a block of high tensile steel that will support a bulb. Very expensive.

These two are the better because the high quality and strength of the metal used permits a narrow foil with little drag and strong enough to be able to resist to the huge forces created by the RM.





































The next good thing is a steel keel hollow structure that supports a bulb. It cannot be so thin (more drag) as the massif one, but will put almost all the weight in the bulb:




























Well this ones are expensive but start to be affordable, for instance this beauty is optional on the Salona 41:










I can give you an idea of the price for a 41ft. The standard keel on the S41 is all iron, than he has one of lead and iron that costs more 5 500€ and then this one that costs more 11500 € than the Standard one.

There is also a new type of very effective keel that I don't know very well and that is the top option on the S38. I have asked for stability curves to compare that keel with the lead/iron one. The keel was designed by Jason Ker, one of the NA that I like more and it is very strange, almost without a bulb and just a bit bigger on the bottom. I suppose that it has a steel structure but instead of all metal it is laminated and the interior is compact, full of some kind of plastic except on the bottom where it is all lead. It seems that the absence of any significant bulb gives it less drag and more grip:










Then it came the iron or steel/lead cast keel, with lead on the bottom and Iron or steel on the top:




























This system is the one used by far on modern expensive sailboats, or as an option in some not so expensive. The foil that supports the lead bulb can be relatively narrow even if not as light as the hollow one. Anyway most of the weight still goes to the lead bulb.

Then it came the iron/stell keels with a torpedo. The lead is 31% more heavier than steel but that cannot compensate the possibility of a narrow foil with the vast majority of the weight down in a torpedo. In swallow drafts, a all lead bulbed keel can be better, but not with a normal draft.

They are similar in shape to the previous ones

Some prestigious brands still use all lead bulbed keels. They are less effective but simpler to build and with an easier maintenance even if with modern epoxy coatings the maintenance of the previous ones is not a problem. Due to the low mechanic proprieties of the lead, even with antimony, it is impossible to make a torpedo keel and even the fin bulbed ones are more thick and give more drag than the steel/lead ones. I suspect they continue to use them because clients still think that a all lead keel is better than a stell/lead keel:










The last group is the one of the Iron bulbed keels.This are by far the most used as standard on mass production cruising boats. Are they less effective than the bulbed all lead keels? Yes if the design is the same, but the Iron permits keels more narrow on the structural part and with a much bigger bulb on the bottom. I believe that a well designed all iron keel, one that takes advantages of the superior material strength, can be more effective than an all lead ballasted one. It is up to you to look carefully to the keel, for the size of its bulb compared with the structural part to see if it is the case or not.




























Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

The biggest composite sailboat in the world, Hetairos with 197". I now, normally this very big boats are not very nice but this one is just gorgeous, so beautiful that looks smaler

The boat was designed by Dykstra (I have already posted some of his designs) and built by Baltic yachts. The best in two fields, design and building


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## PCP

New boat test for the Dufour 335, this time by the boat German magazine "Yacht". They say very well from the boat, from its interior space, storage space. They even call it : "*The modern 10m yacht*" but also raise some concerns about some inconsistencies, the most evident is the lack of a bow bulkhead.

They are right, these guys are capable of almost everything to diminish costs. How much would that have costed? 1000€? As nobody sees it and it is not very probable a frontal shock, they skip pit. I bet that now that the biggest European sail magazine pointed a finger at it, the new ones will come with a front bulckhead

*The movie from the test* is in German but you don't need to understand it to see it and it is a good one:

Dufour 335 GL: Die modernste 10-Meter-Yacht - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE

For the ones that don't speak German, here there is *one movie* 
in French:

video A bon port Spécial Grand Pavois [S.1] [E.2] - french, olivia maincent - videos Men's Up

Also one* movie* in Italian:

DUFOUR 335 - prima parte - YouTube

DUFOUR 335 - seconda parte - YouTube

This boat is amazingly well designed. Not only has a very modern keel (see the photo on the post about keels) one that permits to minimize ballast, as is very nice looking with an interior full of innovations and lots of storage spaces in improbable places. It is also a good sailing boat, one that looks a lot bigger than actually is and that manages to do that without looking fat or inelegant.

Some new photos:


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## PCP

Some Sunday movies. I enjoy them, I hope you too

Some extreme sailing... sometimes to extreme






and a nice movie with kids having fun with sailing. I don't know about you guys, but I love to see kids having fun with sailing. They should be more
The boats are Melges.


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## PCP

Today it seems that we stay with the movies

more two to remember that the next Grand Sailing Adventure will start in less than a year. Less boats than on the last one but with some surprises, being the most amazing one Alexandro di Benedetto that contrary of all the others is a true adventurer without a big racing curriculum but with a long list of incredible accomplishments. Take a look:

2009-2010: Non-stop solo round the world voyage without outside help on a 6.50 mini.
2006: Pacific crossing from Yokohama to San Francisco, sailing solo on a 20ft open racing catamaran
2002: Solo Atlantic crossing on a racing catamaran open 20ft cat.
2001: First solo voyage from Northern Italy to the Canary Islands on a racing open 20ft catamaran 
1992-1993: Mediterranean and Atlantic crossing from Sicily to Martinique, double-handed aboard an open racing catamaran

http://www.alessandrodibenedetto.net/download/stampa/multicoques.pdf

http://www.alessandrodibenedetto.net/

This guy is a bit crazy but it is a hell of a sailor. I am very curious to see what he can make with an old Open60 (truth is that I don't expect much).

The other new guy is a young one compared with the others: François Gabart, he is the opposite of Alexandro, an accomplished solo racer and the raising star among them. I believe Gabart can be a strong contender. He was a new boat, a very nice one, this one:





































The new race promotional:






and to remember the last one:


----------



## PCP

The Vendee Globe is also a test for designers. A Sailboat for the Vendee Globe puts more problems than a boat for the Transat (more variable conditions) and it is a true challenge. From the last designs the more competitive seems to be Virbac-Paprec 3, Jean-Pierre Dick boat. Not only he won the last circumnavigation race (duo) as also won the last Transat. The boat and Dick would be the ones to beat in the next race.






The boat is a VPLP Verdier built by Southern Ocean Marine (New Zealand) and the specifications are:

SPECIFICATIONS: :
Launch date: 2010
Weight: 7.5 t
Ballast : 3000kg
Height of Mast: 29 m
Length of boat: 18.28 m
Beam : 5.70
Depth of Keel: 4.50 m
Width of Boat: 5.70 m

We had already talked about François Gabart and his new (2011) boat, Macif.
The boat was designed by VPLP-Verdier but built in France by CDK Technologies/ Mer Agitée and on its first Transat got a 4th place. Not bad at all for an almost new boar and a skipper that is new to the Open60.

SPECIFICATIONS: 
Launch Date: 16 Aug 2011
LOA : 18.28 m
Beam : 5.70m
Mast height: 29 m
Displacement : 7.7 tonnes
Draft : 4.50m
Ballast: 3600 kg
Type of rig: wing mast
Daggerboards: 2
Upwind sail surface: 340 m2
Downwind sail surface: 570 m2

We can see that the boat is however different in what regards weight and ballast.

And we are going to look also to the new boat of Javier Sansó. The Spanish has a new boat designed by Owen Clarke Design LLP / Clay Oliver and built also by Southern Ocean Marine (New Zealand).

Technical specifications
Length: 18.28 m
Beam: 5.90 m
Draught: 4.5 m
Weight 8 t
Canting keel
Weight of bulb: 3.500kg
Sail surface: 600 m2

This is a heavy and powerful boat. We will see how it will work.

They have a very interesting video about its construction:






and testing stability:






and test sailing:


----------



## PCP

The ARC Rally, the most popular amateur tansat, half amateur race, half I don't know what, started Yesterday this year with the incredible number of 217 sailboats and more than 1100 sailors from 28 nationalities 

That's a good opportunity to see how cruising sailboats with really amateur crews will perform. On that list many boats that we talk about in this thread including a Pogo 10.50.

This year the Atlantic has been bad and have claimed many lives. Let's hope that all this guys can make it safely and let's see how they will cope, regarding bad weather and general performance.

On the entry list amazingly there are very few American made boats but we have a long list of brands and models including some recent ones that were discussed on this thread:

Shipman 63; Dufour 55e; Najad 405; OVNI 455; Pogo 10.50; First 40; Amel 54; Gunboat 66; among many recent models of many mass production boats, including Bavaria, Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour and Elan. Let's see how perform inexpensive boats regarding expensive boats

Let's also see how several mass produced relatively small cats perform relatively to the monohulls. Lot's of them this year, mainly Lagoon, with one Katana and one Outremer.

List of entries:

Entry List for World Cruising Club: ARC

"Race" tracker:

Atlantic Rally for Cruisers 2011 - Powered by Yellowbrick Tracking

Site:

Welcome to World Cruising Club: ARC


----------



## PCP

Atlantic Rally for Cruisers 2011 - Powered by Yellowbrick Tracking

Some amazing results, a French Pulsar 50 trimaran, that is given a run for the money to the Gunboat 66, is leading.

Hei Nemier are you there? Are you sure you had give up about that idea about the fast multihull for cruising? I think the boat that is leading is for sale and at 320 000€ for a 2004 boat that obviously is in good state it don't seem a bad deal, considering that they will probably lower the price. Take a look:

Used boats - Buy and sell - Boats sales - Xboat.fr

Used boats - Buy and sell - Boats sales - Xboat.fr

A French X40 is leading the small boats pack, ahead of a Portuguese jeanneau 49 that is leader in its class, a Norse First 40 is doing well as an italian X 362, a British X 45, 2 other British on Dufours (45e and 455) and surprisingly two French on Island Packets 485, but those two I suspect they will be only in the front while they have diesel for the engine

It will be fun to look at how all those boats perform.

You all are invited to join in, comenting boat's and sailors performance


----------



## Melrna

We should start another thread on the ARC. Some interesting discussions can take place on the type of boats making the run.


----------



## PCP

Melrna said:


> We should start another thread on the ARC. Some interesting discussions can take place on the type of boats making the run.


Please Melrna open one if you want. The ARC has many interesting subjects I am only interested in a small one that has to do with the compared performance among different type of boats while sailed by amateur crews. I am not even interested in the classification that is given by handicap but on the true boat performance.

I while not stop this thread to follow the rally, that should be object of another thread, if there are people interested in it. That was not the case with the Caribbean 1500, that did not had any specific thread about it. I would be glad if there are interest to follow this one closely.

However the ones that want to comment here compared performance data between the several types of boats participating will be more than welcome. I intend to do that, from time to time. It is not the first time that I had done that on this thread regarding offshore events were the vast number of boats permits to take some conclusions about sailing performance including seaworthiness.

That has to do with interesting sailboats. Interesting sailboats sail well, even if they can have very different characteristics.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

The new Mylius 19e95 also known as Mylius 65 is on the water and not many words are necessary to describe it: Big, Very light, very fast, very beautiful and very expensive....What a boat!!!


----------



## PCP

If you think the Mylius was a luxurious boat I think you are wrong. The 19e95 is a boat for a aesthete, a rich one of course and a spartan one in some aspects.

This is a new modern luxurious sailboat:






and a nice one for that matter. Not only the interior is great as they have managed great outside views (look at those huge hull "Windows") without the sailing inconvenient of a deck saloon.

This is a great sailboat with a marvelous interior that has no reflex on the outside shape of the boat and on boat performances. This movie is not good but you can see how the boat sails almost without wind and also as that incredible interior as no effect on the outside shape of the boat:






Well, it is a boat for a very rich guy, but at least a rich guy with a great taste that would chose one of those babies over an ugly big motorboat

At least with these ones we have the pleasure to see them sailing away

V 80' - Luce Guida

http://www.charterworld.com/index.html?sub=yacht-charter&charter=sailing-yacht-luce-guida-6442

...


----------



## PCP

Let's have another look at the ARC boats reminding that a fast boat badly sailed can be slow but a slow boat even if well sailed has a limited speed and that even if these are all amateur crews there are big differences between their skill and qualities as sailors. However in so many boats some meaningful results can be found.

First the leading ones: It seems that the two leading multihulls have very similar speed: The bigger and luxurious Gunboat 66 (American) and the smaller and more spartan trimaran Pulsar 50 (French). They are very close.

The amazing one among the fast boats is the 40ft class40 Akilaria (Austrian) that is very close to the two leading multihulls leaving behind other much bigger racing boats. The deception is the small Pogo 10.50 that if well sailed should be doing a lot better.

Also chapeau to the British girls (feminine crew) on the Elan 37 (the previous model of the 38) that had departed many hours after the others and that are catching up (probably they thought the guys needed an handicap).

Those two strange French Island Packet (strange because I was not seeing a French buying a IP) that I had talk about last time, seem to be some glitch on the tracker. There are only two IP, both British, one is very well positioned and that I think is doing good use of its 1140L of fuel, the other one is a IP45 that is way behind.

The Portuguese Jeanneau 49 continues to go well, surrounded by much bigger boats with the exception of a British smaller XC 45 that has been near from the start. This is a cruising boat from the x yacht line. It has similar seaworthiness comfort and price characteristics with an Halberg Rassy but it is way faster. Still it is amazing that he can put up in speed with a Jeanneau 49P. A great boat the XC45, one of the best cruisers of this length if not the best for the ones that don't like to go faster than anybody

Also a British Oyster 48 doing well, an incredibly fast Italian X362, a German OVNI 455 doing well as a Brittish Dufour 40, a British First 40, a French Hanse 470, a British Benetau Oceanis 50, a British Jeanneau 49DS and a British Dufour 45e.

Another thing that becomes clear is that not even with downwind sailing any of the several Lagoon 42 seem to be a match for the fastest monohulls with its size.

There are certainly other boats doing well that I have missed. that would become more clear ahead.

Atlantic Rally for Cruisers 2011 - Powered by Yellowbrick Tracking

Entry List for World Cruising Club: ARC

Some movies with some of those boats:

The Gunboat 66:






The Akilaria 40fter






The Jeanneau 49






The small syster of the Xc 45, the Xc 42






the Xc 45

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/chantiers/xc-45-bouffeur-de-milles/

I will post movies of the boats that are doing very well.


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## PCP

Very interesting Catamaran test by Yachtworld. They have tested at the same time in the water three of the most popular mid size cats, the Broad blue 435, the Lagoon 400 and the Lipari 41.

The have invited for the testing Nigel Irens, a top NA (including multihulls) and a top cat sailor Brian Thompson. Even if you don't like this type of cats don't lose the chat at the end of the video where Thompson talks about sailing at 45K while trying to slow down the boat and about sailing at 20k speed without sails (only the mast) while trying to read the instructions to put down a parachute anchor. I am happy he did not cause at that speed probably we would be overboard with the parachute line, would broke the parachute line or the boat, on the point he attached the parachute.

About the test it is very funny because they can really not separate the boats, except saying that the Broadblue has a bit better overall quality (it is more expensive). They say that they are not designed for performance and that they are very good for the family, have a fantastic interior, that they are safe boats but where they are really excellent is when they are at anchor or tied up to a marina

They don't say that they are very good for sailing, probably forgot about that part, but say that they are very good for family holidays. I guess that is why we see so many Cats of thise type






Yachting World MultiHull Test Video from Richard Langdon on Vimeo.


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## PCP

Take a look at this beautiful boat, one of the fastest on the planet: Banque Populaire V











This boat can go over 40K, in fact on the last movie it is making 41K.

Yesterday Banque Populaire started a new attempt for the world record circumnavigation skipped by Loick Peiron.

The incredible record of a bit more than 48 days is on the hands of Franck Cammas on Groupama (the trimaran). Franck Cammas is now the skipper of the French boat at the Volvo Ocean race, Grupama (the VOR70).

Here you can follow almost in real time the attempt. The tracker shows the boat position the winds and also the position of Groupama on the last circumnavigation so we can see if Peiron is winning or losing time.

http://www.voile.banquepopulaire.fr/Maxi-Trimaran-Banque-Populaire-V/cartographie-c5191.html

Till now Peiron is winning a lot. He had a very fast start and he is already about 150Nm ahead.

.....


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## Melrna

Great videos. Love to watch them. 
As for the ARC I was looking at it last night. Looked like they had great wind. Everyone was doing great speed except the big race boats. Not sure why they were so slow. Maybe not enough wind for them. The Gunboat 66 and Pulsar 50 are taking a different rhumb line so it will be interesting to see how they finish.


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## PCP

Melrna, nice to have your company while looking at the Rally. Yes that was a good night and I wish I was there

The British Girls on the Elan 37 had a great night and almost closed on the back of the pack. Knowing that they had started with more than a 100Nm handicap, that's a dam good performance even better if we consider that they have one of the smallest boats in the Rally.

Great also for the Portuguese Jeanneau 49 that left behind that XC45 and also a great night for the guys on French X-40 and on the British First 40 Lancelot II. Their position at the head of the race among big boats confirm the big offshore potential of the First 40 (and X-40) that I had already noticed on the Sydney-Hobart. Of course they are also great sailors for sure. Another First, a British 40.7 are also making good speed, as a British Dufour 45e and a Oceanis 50.

Even if my major interest lays on affordable mass production boats there are also some medium height boats doing a great race: A Duch Standfast 56, two British Swan 46mk II,a Spanich Swan 56, a Norse Sweden 45 a and a Xc 45.

If we take a look at the brands that are doing better, I would say Jeanneau is doing great. Besides the Portuguese one has another 49, Kotari, a British one making a hell of a race as one, another British49DS (Buterfly) and also a Canadian Sunfast 43. There are also some 53DS doing well.

Among the older boats, Swan are the most impressive.

But the ones that impresses me more are recent X-yacht boats. The total number of X-Yachts produced is tiny if compared with Jeanneau, not to mention Benetau, Dufour or Bavaria but their number on this rally is disproportional high and almost all if not all the boats are doing very well:

I had already talked about the Xc 45 and about the incredible good performance of a French X-40 and a small Italian x-362. To them we can join the Norse X-43 Exqui and some bigger boats that are also doing extremely well. Look at the two X-55, one Turkish, the other Canadian, a Spanish 46 and a Dutch X-612.

Dam good boats the X-Yachts in my opinion. Great cruising interiors even on the performance line, fast, strong and seaworthy boats.

Let's have a look at some videos and some information about X-Yachts:

They have three lines of boats: Racing, performance cruising and cruising.

The Xc-45 belongs to the the line of cruising boats, boats that have similar characteristics with the Halberg-Rassy , I mean the more modern HR, but X-yacht have a technical superior build and I am talking about the hull, not about interiors.

All the others belong to the line of X-Yacht performance cruisers, also vulgarly called cruiser/racers, but this ones, contrary to many boats in that category are very good cruising boats with a great interior.

The X-55 was 2007 European boat of the year and even if I cannot find any decent movie, the interior and boat characteristics can be seen here. Look at that interior: This is not a race boat, but as they say, a performance cruiser.

X-55 Performance Cruiser

I cannot find any good movies of the 55 but I have found one about the 50ft performance boat, just a bit smaller but with identical characteristics:






There are several good test boats with videos about the more recent Xc 50 from the cruising line:











The X-43 is not produced anymore, it was replaced last year by the x-44. The X-43 was for many time my dream boat, the one I would have if I could afford it.






And the new 44 is not worse, just more modern and faster. The interior is also great without beig uxorious is cozy and comfortable:

http://www.x-yachts.com/seeems/122912.asp
















The Xp 44 can be fully exploited by an expert crew or can be sailed more conservatively by a duo and even so going very fast. It is a very stiff and seaworthy boat.

The X-612 was the Flag hsip of X-yachts:

http://www.1yachtua.com/Buy/X-YACHTS/x-612[1].html

Now it is replaced by the x-65.

X-65






They only have a defect: They are expensive

Atlantic Rally for Cruisers 2011 - Powered by Yellowbrick Tracking

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Do you know the Finn class sailboats? It is hardly newit is around since 1949 but certainly it is an interesting sailboat, if it was not, it would not have lasted so long, as an Olympic class:

Just look at this movie. I am still laughing


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## PCP

I have already talked here about Faurby yachts that are beautiful and very traditional sailboat, one of the last narrow cruising sailboats.

They are modernizing the boats and they have done that without taking away its character. They are faster but they look even better. take a look at the 396:










I have already been inside of several Faurby and has it was to be expected its interior space is not as big as on more "normal" 40ft but the boat is so nice and so cozy that somewhat that seems not matter. See if you understand what I mean:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/fauby_375_.swf

...


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## PCP

They say that each Faurby is different and made with the same care of an art work and it is true that the quality and finish are among the best I know, better than HR for sure but it will cost a lot more than a mass market 40ft and if that space can be enough for a couple, for a family with kids a boat like the Jeanneau 409 offers a lot more. Take a look at some 360º photos, that you cannot find on Jeanneau site, and compare:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/jeanneau409_s_.swf

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/jeanneau409__nt_.swf

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/jeanneau409-g_.swf

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/jeanneau409-fc_.swf

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/jeanneau409-acp_.swf

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/jeanneau409-acs_.swf

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/jeanneau409-h_.swf

A dam good job in what regards showing the boat interior. I don't understand why Jeanneau had not bought that and put it on their website

Regarding boat performance, only few guys would prefer the one from the Faurby. There is probably one point of sail here the Faurby is better and that is really close to the wind. The chances are that the Faurby points a bit better and having less wave drag will be faster and more comfortable in what regards sea motion (less slam). Of course, we would have to discount to that comfort the fact that the Faurby will sail most of the time much more heeled than the 409, particularly upwind, close to the wind.

With lots of wind downwind, going fast, the 409 will be more easy to control and probably a bit faster.

All this put together explains why modern cruising boats are much more nearer in concept to the Jeanneau than to the Faurby. Only some performance cruisers, like the First, Salona, Jboats or Gtand Soleil go for an intermediate solution, in what regards beam.

Erik Stromberg, the American that was responsible by the Jeanneau 409 development explains here the main design criteria of the boat:






I had the pleasure to have a talk with EriK when I was undecided between this boat and a more sportive Salona and I was surprised with the level of knowledge, with the modesty and honesty that he revealed.

Of course, at the time I did not know he was an important guy on the Jeanneau development. The dealer unable to answer to my kind of technical questions went for help and brought Erik to talk with me. I believe that the very well designed line of modern Jeanneaus, including in what regards sailing, has a lot to do with him. On that chat I have understood that Erik is not the typical manager but is also a good sailor with a lot of experience, that he tests the boats and that he works directly with the boat designers on the boat development.

Just to give you an idea, from the talk I understood that when the model is new Erik does delivery trips as a Skipper with the new jeanneau. I guess that it is not only for the pleasure of sailing but also to see what can be bettered on the boat. Not a typical boat manager for sure. I was very impressed with him.

Take a look again at the Faurby 396 and to its sailing performance. Notice heeling.






...


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## PCP

Really fast sailboats, the ones that are most used for racing but that can be still used for cruising have kind of a spartan interior. Regarding the hull they have normally less beam than the Jeanneau 409 and more than the Faurby, with the exception of those that are made for solo sailing on trade winds, like the a 40class boat or a class 950.

But not all. As an example of a very fast narrow boat (like the Faurby) we can chose the J111, even if this one is only a 37ft.

Has I have already said, the J 111 was elected the boat of the year by the readers of the French Magazine Voile, and this is not a sail racing magazine, but a sail generic magazine with a big incidence in cruising. Why they found this boat incredibly good? Not mainly by its interior for sure, but by the way it sails, upwind and downwind. I guess that the interior also had scored points: it is not bad for a very fast boat and will permit cruising. Have a look:

Fast but also sailing with a lot of heel and requiring a good hand on a wheel an a good weigh distribution to sail very fast downwind.











Other very fast boats like the Ker tend to have about the same length to beam ratio as the more recent Salonas (more beam than the J111) and are as fast as the J111 but a bit more stable and easy to sail downwind. Here the Ker 11.3 (the new 11.5 has a bit more beam):











But of course this is really a race boat with an interior more spartan than the J111, the correspondent boat would be the ker 37 but I cannot find any decent movie of that one. The hull in what regards length to beam ratio is not very different.

Anyway you get my drift, faster all around boats have normally more length to beam ratio (less beam) than the Jeanneau and less than the Faurby. Jason ker had made an interesting comment regarding beam and speed on modern race boats and he knows of what he is talking about:

*"With roughly the same LOA and DSPL, the Ker 11.5 hullform differs in being considerably more powerful through having more beam and draft. Ker explains that the adoption of this more powerful hull is possible because the more modern hullform exhibits significantly reduced
wave drag, which compensates for the greater frictional (wetted surface) drag; his own CFD and VPP studies show the Ker 11.5 and the Ker 11.3 (with the same sail plan) producing similar corrected-time performance in the light (6kt) wind range.

Ker believes that while adding sail area will always make a boat more competitive in very light winds."*

http://seahorsemagazine.com/pdf/SeaHorse_Ker11.5.pdf

On a next post we will look at cruising boats that sail faster than the Jeanneau or the Faurby but that are slower than the Ker or the J 111. They are normally less beamy than the Jeanneau and have about the same length to ratio of a Ker but will be considerably slower than those boats mainly because they are heavier and the hull design is different normally with more rocker.

....


----------



## PCP

So we have talked about modern cruisers given the Jeanneau 409 as an example, about more racing oriented boats that can be used to do some spartan cruising like the J111, the Ker 37 or the Santa Cruz 37, let's talk now of what are called performance cruisers, boats that are more oriented to cruising but that can be used to club racing or if specially prepared can even have a good performance at semi-amateur racing.

The ones that normally have slower older boats like to call this boats "racing boats". That makes not sense because these boats are designed firstly to cruise and then to have good performance. They are more sportive than the cruisers like jeanneau. Comparing to cars it is a bit like calling a Corvette, or better, a Porche Panamera (because it can carry a family) a racing car. Makes no sense. those cars, like this type of cruising boats, have all the amenities that make cruising a pleasure and that are stripped out, for weight, on a racing car or in a racing boat.

That "preparation" is many time supplied by the shipyard that can make the hull lighter and stronger, different bulkheads, lighter interior, carbon mast, special keels and so on. The price of a really competitive oriented racing one and a more inexpensive cruising version can be very substantial but at least on these boats you have a hull designed for sailing fast and have the choice to make your own boat, buying from the options the ones that seemed more important to you, like for example a stronger lighter and osmosis proof all vinilister/epoxy hull, a lead keel and so on.

Normally these boats are narrower than the Jeanneau and have a superior B/D ratio. They are faster than the Jeanneau but slower than the previous racing boats. As I have said before they are slower because they are heavier, not only on account of all extra weight a cruising interior will add but because they are normally made with less hi-grade materials than the true racing boats and the reason is price. Look at the price of a Santa Cruz 37, a Ker 37 or a J111. They are much more expensive than a First or a Salona.

The cruising amenities and comfort of these boat's interiors vary from model to model and are normally a bit less spacious than less sportive cruisers like the Jeanneau 409 (they have a narrower hull) and normally for having the same space of a smaller cruising boat you have to have a slighter bigger boat. The difference is not so substantial like the one between the Faurby and the Jeanneau, but there is a difference.

Take a look for instance to the interiors of the Salona 41 and the First 40 and compare it with the one from Jeanneau and the one from Faurby:

First 40 CR / First / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU

(click on 360º)

360 - Salona Yachts

In what regards sailing these boats make a difference mainly in what regards sailing in light wind or in heavy weather with waves. With waves the much superior wave drag of the jeanneau will make it slower much more at each wave. They have also a more comfortable motion upwind and will be more faster downwind because they are lighter but I doubt they will be easier to sail and as stable downwind.

The main difference besides speed will be on the pleasure of sailing: the feeling of having a boat with a very precise steering, a boat that will accelerate with each puff of wind, a smooth and fast boat, giving that idea of perfection, the absolute opposite of an indifferent boat that will make only less 0,5K but that you would leave on autopilot because there is no fun in sailing it.

Some of these kind of boats:


























Next we will see if the Jeanneau 409 is after all a beamy boat among its pairs and also a special reference to performance cruisers that have is hull shape derived from solo Ocean racers.


----------



## PCP

Meanwhile lets have a look at the ARC rally and to the boats that are doing good. All that have been refereed before are going well, let's today make a reference to some that are also going fast and that I had not talked about, but let me first talk about Vaquita, the Austrian class 40 Aquilaria:






This is Vaquita, a fast cow  even with very weak winds. It is amazing how the boat has been able to go at the same pace as the two Maxi racers on the Rally. Vaquita has 40ft, the Maxis about 80ft.

Another class 40, a Pogo is also going strong even if not so well but well ahead of any other 40ft boat, including a well crewed First 40. This confirms that type of boat is practically unbeatable on the kind of sailing he was designed for, the trade winds with short crew. The First 40 can beat a class 40 on a mixed wind race here is not a match.

Regarding cats what we see is that fat cats like the Lagoon are not faster than fast monohull cruisers of the same size, not even on the trade winds were they sail better. If there was some upwind sailing they would not be a match for a good monohull sailboat of the same size.

However less fat multihulls are doing very well. I have already talked about the two that are going faster on the head of the Rally, let me talk about some other production cats that are going very fast.

The mote impressive is a Greek Outremer 49 that It is wrongly marked on the tracker as a monohull. A great Cat that has a justified reputation as an offshore fast boat and that is showing that here.

It is not a race boat, look at this interior:

Click on the L

Some movies:











Also a French Katana 47 is doing well. Katana is also a good fast offshore cat.

Some movies:


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## PCP

Talking about the ARC rally and the Banque Populaire attempt to the world circumnavigation record, they have meet. Look till the end






The attempt is going well and they have a good head lead:

Trophée Jules Verne 2011 - Cartographie et géolocalisation


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## PCP

*SVEN IRVIND is arriving!!!!! He has made it!*










In a bad year, with many lives lost of sea, storm after storm, Sven is arriving where he had planned, at Martinique on the French Caribbean after 50 days of sailing.

With all this bad weather over the Atlantic, that lead to the postponement of several races, I was worried with its fate.

Well, I am very eager to hear him telling about this voyage. What a story, what a feat!

In a age where many are entering to retirement houses for old people this guy just made a boat with its hands and crossed the Atlantic in it!

Guys like this one make us all good, specially to the ones that are already "very experienced", I mean that are not young anymore. After having saw this I just fell that I have many years of sailing ahead, many more than what I thought before this achievement .



















Welcome to Sven Yrvind- the official website

Take a look at what he had used for navigation. I want one of those things. This guy is just amazing, a true Viking






...


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## PCP

Let's have another look at the ARC, looking this time at the performance of small boats, boats with less than 39ft:

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/viewer.aspx

Entry List for World Cruising Club: ARC

From those the fastest is a X 362 (1838 nm to finish) the X 362 is a performance cruiser with some years but still a fast sailboat. It is followed closely by a Dufour 385 that is also a some years old boat and not one from the Dufour performance line. A very good performance for both boats an their crews.

The next small boat is a Sweden 38, very near a Hanse 370 a Sigma 33 and a Sweden 36 (at 1904nm from the finish). Dam good boats the Sweden, also a good performance by the Hanse and a very good from the little Sigma, a performance boat from the 70's that shows that is still fast and seaworthy.

Sigma 33 archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

52 nm back we will find another performance boat from the 70's, a Okso 33 and more 24nm back another one, this time the Hero 101 a 3/4 tonner. Not much money needed to have a relatively fast and seaworthy boat. Very nice performance for this oldies, almost classic boats.

Båten « Tur-bo

FjordSailing AS - Multileverandr av seilglede

Near the Okso (1949 mn to finish) an amazing OVNI 36ft. And I say amazing because this is a 36ft aluminum centerboarder, an heavier boat designed not to be fast but to be strong. a Voyage boat. The very good performance of these boats on the trade winds and its robustness explains why the OVNI are the French preferred voyage boat (there are also an OVNI 445 going fast).

Between the two last oldies, at 19nm from the OVNI a Halberg Rassy 37 and near by a very badly sailed Pogo 10.50. Not far a HR 36 (1984nm to the finish).

There is also the girl's boat, an Elan 37, but they have started more than half a day later so we cannot compare. They are now 82nm back from the HR 36.


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> Do you know the Finn class sailboats? It is hardly newit is around since 1949 but certainly it is an interesting sailboat, if it was not, it would not have lasted so long, as an Olympic class:
> 
> Just look at this movie. I am still laughing


That looks a lot like Gulliver sailing in the Volvo ocean race.


----------



## PCP

I had not time to post today. I have been busy with the possible order of a Salona 38 for me and the specifications I want on the boat. The good news are things are looking good.

One of the things I did not like was the instruments out in the front cockpit and the plotter on the chart table. With a two wheel setup is difficult to have a nice pod set up that does not the boat look ugly. Look at this one they are proposing...not bad!










And about the keel and the bowsprit it seems that I am not the only one that want them. Just look at this new 41, prepared to do some serious racing, with the keel and bowsprit I want. They have already develop them










By the way, a new test on the Salona 41 by Yachtingworld magazine. They say about it:

The Salona 41 is a very sporty cruising boat, easily handled by a crew of two, and a real looker to boot. She is built to a high standard and is fitted with top of the range kit, including Harken winches. She has superb hull-keel strength from the lead keel being built over a steel skeleton which bolts onto the hull cage.

PERFORMANCE 
Salona has sold yachts to sailors who have competed in the Sydney-Hobart Race, which gives some idea of their performance. But she holds her sail well, is easily driven and effortlessly sailed short-handed.

AT THE HELM 
Twin carbon fibre wheels are mounted astern of her German mainsheet system: a necessity for such a tall rig so the helmsman can reach the Harken 40, two-speed self-tailers.

DESIGN & CONSTRUCTION 
The vacuum infused hull comprises a solid laminate on the bottom and hand- laminated polyester elsewhere. There are watertight bulkheads in bow and stern.

....
*Verdict*

For: Excellent design and construction
Against: Unsteady chart table

*I would be surprised if Salona did not become a household name among British sailors over the next decade.*

*Scores*

Performance 10/10
Design and Construction 10/10
Sail Plan 10/10
Helm 10/10
Deck Layout 9/10
Living Below 9/10
Chart Table 5/10
Galley 8/10
Maintenance 9/10

Salona 41 boat test | Single-Hull Boat Reviews | Yachting Monthly

Well, nothing new, I had already have said to you guys that this is a great boat

...


----------



## h20man

PCP said:


> Marty,
> Actually I find the Opium 39 a good looking boat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About the boat and its speed potential I think you would like to read this boat test:
> 
> http://www.wauquiez.com/presse/opium-39/pdf/YACHT-JANV-2010-FR.pdf
> 
> The Translation is really bad. This is the translation of a test by the Doitch magazine "Yacht". "Yacht" is in my opinion probably the best sailing boat magazine (and I know a lot of them) and they don't like particularly French boats. They normally like X-Yacht, Arcona, Luffe, Finngulf, Swan and the like. I believe that I never heard them say so well about a French boat.
> 
> Look at the wind speed and the boat speed. I have sailed the same boat (the one in the photo) with about the same wind and I can tell you that those numbers are for real. The boat sails not far away from wind speed.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


this URL brings up the English version of the article:
http://www.wauquiez.com/presse/opium-39/pdf/YACHT-JANV-2010-EN.pdf


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> I had not time to post today. I have been busy with the possible order of a Salona 38 for me and the specifications I want on the boat. The good news are things are looking good. ...


It seems you are about to make your decision, Paulo .

This is indeed a real cruiser-racer, very well built and considering your preference for more traditional designs with a comfortable interior, an excellent choice in my honest opinion.

I hope Salona will be able to meet your final demands and I very much look forward to your opinion, this time as an owner.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## nemier

Looking forward to hear your final verdict Paulo!! 
The Salona is a fine yacht!


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> It seems you are about to make your decision, Paulo .
> 
> This is indeed a real cruiser-racer, very well built and considering your preference for more traditional designs with a comfortable interior, an excellent choice in my honest opinion.
> 
> I hope Salona will be able to meet your final demands and I very much look forward to your opinion, this time as an owner.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Thanks Eric,

Actually I am quite certain I am going to like you as much in flesh and bone as I like to "talk" with you on the net, so you are invited to pass some days on my boat In Croatia and then you can see for yourself the differences to your new boat.

I have no doubt that the Pogo 12.50 will be an exhilarating boat to sail and a lot of fun, specially downwind over 20K.

I guess that the differences that led you to choose that one and I to chose another one (taking in consideration that I could not afford the Pogo 12.50) is because I like to voyage a lot, mostly on the med where there are not trade winds and also because I intend to live in the boat for some months each year. Even in what regards sail performance I value differently sailing qualities, and that of course, has to do with the use it is going to be given to the boat and with personal preferences.

I have been many times at sea when many others are ashore, I mean when the wind blows between 20 and 35K and I had done in those conditions a lot of miserable upwind sailing with short waves to make it worse.

This time I want a boat that can do that a lot better than the previous one and one that can make it more comfortably, in what regards sea motion. I want an all around good and strong fast sailing boat with a good interior, a boat that I can afford. Also a powerful boat in bad weather, a stiff boat and a very fast boat in light winds.

I am sure I would have a lot more fun sailing downwind, even with heavy weather and high winds on your boat than on mine but I also know that upwind in heavy weather mine is going to be fast, more comfortable and easier to drive. Well, probably not faster, because your's is bigger

In fact my choice has nothing to do with liking the shapes of "traditional" fast boats. I like them as much as the shape of some boats that are derived from Solo Offshore boats, like the Pogo or the new JPK. It is not the shape but the differences in performance while sailing, not better or worse, but better in some things , worse in others.

By the way, have you seen the performance on the last days of the French 40ft Pogo that is making the ARC? Awesome. On transats these boats are at its best.

World Cruising Club Arc fleet viewer

I also heard about several guys that are going to circumnavigate (cruising) on these boats (with a bettered interior even if worse than the one from the Pogo 12.50). Circumnavigating you go mostly with the trade winds and that boat makes sense if they don't mind the boat to be a bit Spartan.

Actually to me that does not makes much difference while sailing. It is more while living on the boat at the marina or at anchor that I find the need of a more "warmer" boat, but that is just me

So, Bottom line, when are you going to have your new Pogo 12.50?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

nemier said:


> Looking forward to hear your final verdict Paulo!!
> The Salona is a fine yacht!


Hi Nemier,

Actually I have accepted today the offer from Salona to buy a 38. I am waiting for a contract with the leasing guys.

I have been in contact with the guys from Salona for about a year, first about the 41 (that I charted for a week in the summer) and later about the 38. The 38 was released on the summer and I had the opportunity to sail the first boat in the water, this one:






I loved it from the beginning and the boat has enough space for us, it is fast enough, easier to put and to take out of the marina and the sails are not as big as the ones on the 41, making an easier boat to sail solo, not to mention, a less expensive one.

Basically I had already decided it would be a Salona because between the affordable fast and light boats this is probably the stronger, with its stainless steel grid to take the keel and the shroud efforts and with with an optional all vinilester/epoxy hull. The boat has also waterproof bulkheads aft and at the bow, and because Salona is the only affordable production shipyard that will modify their boats to meet my needs in all that it is possible and that was really a lot

For example, I wanted a boat less pointed to cruising and racing, but more pointing to a fast cruising boat with offshore good qualities, a very stiff boat that could sail well upwind without having guys on the side.

Not that the boat has a bad stability. It has already a good Ballast/displacement ratio for this type of keel and draft and a comparative good one if compared with most cruising boats of this size, but I wanted more:

I wanted to substitute the keel they have in the boat by an heavier and better performance one, one that was not designed for the best results on handicap racing, but for pure performance and that without adding much weight would give me a more powerful boat, specially in bad weather with a better reserve stability and a better AVS.

Well, it is done and at a price I do not found prohibitive.

I wanted a nice pole for the geenaker. I have discussed with them several models and they have already showed the preliminary drawings to me: A carbon one, the type Grand Soleil and x yachts are using that incorporates the anchor and bow roller. A nice design.

Done, and again at an affordable price.

I did not like the stow away cockpit table that was heavy and not very stable (the same type as on the 41). I talked to them and they said that they were going to look at it.

They have send me the designs: Nicely designed.

I complained about the instruments that were, like all boats that are also used for race, too far away, over the cabin entry. They have showed to me the available pods in the market: All ugly. They have said they were going to look at it. They have sent me the preliminar drawings (I have posted them already), nicely designed and I have no doubts, they will be well made.

I could go on for a long time, from permanent jack lines to places to hook the harness passing by lateral handgrabs on the spraywood, to a removable textile stay, to a Spade instead of their standard anchor, to a custom transom pole to the radar and a special support to carry the dingy on the transom, the list would be long not to mention the many options they have to customize the boat.

I guess they do that with clients that ask them things that actually can improve the boat, they do that to cruisers and they do that for racers too, but in this case in what regards pure performance and a faster and more competitive boat.

They say in its publicity:

*Every Salona is a result of teamwork of external and internal designers among which we are proud to mention J&J Salona 38 designers, Jason Ker (keel optimization), many Olympic and professional sailors, interior 
designers, suppliers and most importantly existing cruising or racing Salona customers.*

http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/PR_Salona38.pdf

There are many that say things like these, normally bullsh*t except that in this case it is actually true

And how about you? You are the most strange guy I know about choosing a boat Specially considering you have a lot of sailing experience. I guess it has to have with your wife

Maybe that cat idea was not so bad in what regards your wive, providing you don't take her offshore (you can fly her). I saw some days ago a new cat from that brand of African cats that called my attention: Electric engines recharged by the sailing. I mean when you sail without engine the batteries are charged by the propellers. They say it is fast and that it works. Too good to be true but I will follow that even if it is out of my budget.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

Congrats on the Salona - looks to be a very nice boat and something I'll have to look to charter next spring in Croatia! Still on the fence regarding own vs. charter as I'm 4 hours minimum from the Med with 2 young children which makes it prohibitive for the long weekend trips. We will see in due time... 

Send your detailed review when you pick up your boat. And may the day you buy it be immeasurably more rewarding than the day you sell it!!


----------



## G1000

Paulo, finally  And I hope it will meet all your expectations. Congratulations!


----------



## PCP

Thank you guys, but I really would have preferred to hear those congratulations after the leasing guys said OK, just in case

BB, I had never had charted before I sold the Bavaria and I had nice experiences sailing a new Dufour 425 and this year a new Salona 41.

Sailing a new 38/40ft top boat in summer on a top cruising ground it will cost a between 2500 and 3000€ a week.

To have a boat like the Salona 38 on a top cruising ground on the med, including insurance, annual marina and maintenance will cost about 10 000€ a year and not counting with the boat devaluation. That will permit to charter a top new boat on a top cruising ground between 3 to 4 weeks.

The obvious conclusion is that it is only worth to have a boat if you sail more than a month a year. Most people don't have the time for that and that's why the charter marker has been raising each year.

That's not the case with me that will certainly be sailing much more than that, now that I am semi-retired.

And about the boat....I will not have no intention to sell this one in the future. This one was chose with care to be *my* boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

PCP said:


> Hi Nemier,
> Actually I have accepted today the offer from Salona to buy a 38. I am waiting for a contract with the leasing guys....
> 
> And how about you? You are the most strange guy I know about choosing a boat Specially considering you have a lot of sailing experience. I guess it has to have with your wife
> 
> Maybe that cat idea was not so bad in what regards your wive, providing you don't take her offshore (you can fly her).
> 
> Regards
> Paulo


Hey Paulo,
I shall save my Congratulations until the finance is in place, as you wish 

As for me? 
Short answer, still no decision as to which boat we shall buy next. The boat we have now is remains up for sale. Moving forward though, we are going to sell our home this spring (downsizing) to make our eventual purchase easier. And as for my wife, well what can I say? After 27 years we're still very much in love and all our boat decisions are made together. I guess we're in no particular rush and we'll get there. 
The Cat is still an option, but the plan is definitely to make the transits together.

I have been reviewing this thread for months now and have really enjoyed watching your personal boat-choice decision process. For what it's worth, I believe you have made a great choice and you really can't go wrong with this boat (Salona 38) - well done Paulo!


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Thanks Eric,
> 
> I guess that the differences that led you to choose that one and I to choose another one is because I like to voyage a lot, mostly on the med where there are not trade winds and also because I intend to live in the boat for some months each year. Even in what regards sail performance I value differently sailing qualities, and that of course, has to do with the use it is going to be given to the boat and with personal preferences.


Hi Paulo,

I think your analysis is very accurate once again. 
If we would be able to spend long periods of time aboard as you will do, the Pogo would have been a wrong choice. Weight is essential for these designs and although they can of course be loaded like any other, it would certainly take away most of the fun. 
That's why I appointed our youngest son as "weight watcher", who checks anything that will be taken on board for weight/relevance ratio. My wife already complains he is too severe, while the boat is not even there yet!  He even objected against the lightest possible outboard for the tender, because simple oars work so well, are much lighter and will improve Mum and Dad's physical condition :laugher.

In this prospect your Salona 38 (and hopefully also your son ) will be more forgiving and certainly a much better performer upwind, which is what you want when cruising extensively for longer periods of time. 
We will spend most of our time day sailing or making short trips along the Channel and the North Sea, giving us the opportunity to choose our destination according to short term wind predictions and avoiding beating upwind as much as possible. We hope also to be able to spend two or three week holidays in Ireland, Scotland, Brittany and Scandinavia. This will then of course imply passage-making and inevitably some close-hauled sailing, but these delivery trips will mostly be outsourced to our sons and their evenly fanatic and frentic sailing friends. They will take the slamming with a smile, we intend to take the car (and the outboard&#8230; ).

That is also why we care less about the somewhat minimalistic interior of the 12.50, which also for us would be much less acceptable if we were to live on board for longer periods of time. But on the other hand, we love the very bright and enormous space, which is quite exceptional for a 40 ft cruiser.

Draft is also much less an issue in the Med than it is in these Northern cruising grounds. Having a very slim and almost dagger board-shaped, composite glass/vinylester foil with the lead ballast down to 3m below the waterline is a thrilling perspective for us, probably because of our dinghy background. But this would be unfeasible without being able to lift the keel in our mostly shallow harbors. We think this is also a safety issue, because the hydraulic mechanism will absorb most of the impact should we run aground, by releasing the keel instantaneously. 
For you this is a much lesser issue and I completely agree with your emphasis on the steel grid construction of the Salona. We have sailed a 1992 Dehler 39 CWS extensively, constructed in a very similar way, and which we once ran aground very abruptly at >8kts during the Antwerp Race. Without any single damage, except many crew with quite some bruises. Ten years and two owners later, this yacht now stands ashore at our yacht club for a major refit, but only of the interior .

I also very much agree with your analysis about chartering versus buying a yacht. Charterers can sail yachts they will probably never be able to afford to buy, can visit any cruising area they like and never have to bother about repairs and maintenance. On the other hand, they cannot decide on Friday to go sailing for the weekend.
Owning a yacht therefore only makes sense when it is going to be sailed extensively. That is why we mostly chartered for 30 years and waited for both our kids to become sufficiently experienced and motivated before ordering the Pogo, so the boat will have three skippers instead of one and hopefully even more different crews.

We visited the Structures yard one month ago, it should now be almost finished. You probably would, but we do not intend to make the 550 M trip to Nieuwpoort before next spring.

Finally, I think the way Salona is complying with your specifications and providing custom made solutions is indeed quite impressive and certainly exceptional for a non-custom boat builder. 
On the other hand, it seems to me you are handing them valuable improvements on an already excellent design. 
So the bottom line is: they must be very proud that "our" Paulo, the expert opinion maker of this excellent thread, chose for them.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Well, let's move more in topic:

Have you ever heard about General Lee?

No, not that one, I have say that I would stay in topic, I mean the boat.

This one:























































Not much of a cruising boat but the minimum to live offshore for some weeks in very Spartan conditions, but what a missile.

If this is not the fastest offshore 36ft racer, it is certainly among the few that can aspire to that title. The boat was launched last year and it is a Bakewell-White design. Many of the best naval architects come from New Zealand like those two.

The boat is a kind of small TP 52, has a medium to high beam (3.6m) and a light weight (all carbon), considering that most of the weight is ballast:

LOA 11.30m 
10.00m DWL 
maximum beam 3.60m 
Draft 2.65m 
Displacement 3585 kg 
Ballast 2100kg
Sail area 84 m2

The most strange characteristic is a foldable mast. I seems they need one to enter they home port closed followed by a winch pedestal. It seems that it is the smallest boat that has one.... or the most strange thing is that incredible B/D ratio?

The designer says about it:

The original brief was for a fun twilight racing for Perth's Swan River - a mini-TP52. The first boat 'Al Fresco' is an inshore boat That occasionally races in coastal and offshore. ..In order to get out of the river to the ocean at Fremantle The Boat Have To pass beneath a fixed bridge and so the yachts all Have A Method of Lowering the mast and for this reason the mast is deck stepped and Can Be lowered and raised again Within a few minutes.

*'General Lee' is an offshore oriented version of the boat* and as a result ice Slightly Heavies. She hock more interior facilities, electronics, and a more robust deck package Including a pedestal driving the primary winches to Ensure are high line speed When the action gennakers...

The hull shape was Developed to produce a boat That is a good all around performer and whilst quick downwind this Boats real strength is upwind. To Achieve this We Have spent time ensuring a well balanced volume distribution, a good ballast ratio ... The Hull is not chined largely because the original client Considered them ugly, and as the emphasis was not Reaching and running we did not feel they were a Necessity beyond being a current fashion accessory.

The issue of rating was not to influence the design too much other than minimizing any extreme features That Would Affect adversely the IRC rating for the boat.

Fun was always the first priority and corrected time results a nice bonus. Al Fresco hock scored some good IRC results and finished 2nd in the West Australian IRC championship season, and General Lee hock recently finished 2nd in the IRC 1200nm Auckland to Fiji race in her first outing.

If you want to read some very interesting just look under the name of the races:

General Lee Racing - Fremantle to Busselton Race

*How about doing 25K on a 36ft* monohull

Look at the boys getting line honors with a 36ft boat....that is some serious fun!!!!!


----------



## tdw

Well Paulo I do hope all the finance falls into place for you. While I was a little disappointed with the interior fitout of the Salona (41 ?) I saw at the Sydney Boat Show this year they still seemed to me to be the best of the bunch and she certainly looks like she'd be fun to sail particularly given that your sailing grounds don't seem to have any depth worries.

I'm sure we'll all be looking forward to watching the build progress and seeing her on the water.

Must say I like the look of the Faurby and if I was ever to go multi hull a Catana would probably do nicely, though I do have a strong liking for Chris White's designs. Not as plush as the Catana but they appeal to me at least.

I share you admiration for Sven Irvind. Guys like that, quiet achievers. Good stuff, and yep I'd like one of those mini sextants as well.

Unfortunately, image files from the Chris White site are copyright so all I can do right now is this link. I'll see if I can find images elsewhere.

A 42 - ChrisWhiteDesigns' Photos | SmugMug

ah .. here we go ...


----------



## mitiempo

Here are some images of an Atlantic 42 named Catalyst from the CCA website - "The Boats We Sail". The link is dead but I downloaded the pdf last year.


----------



## mitiempo

And a few more


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Well Paulo I do hope all the finance falls into place for you. While I was a little disappointed with the interior fitout of the Salona (41 ?) I saw at the Sydney Boat Show this year they still seemed to me to be the best of the bunch and she certainly looks like she'd be fun to sail particularly given that your sailing grounds don't seem to have any depth worries.
> 
> ...
> Unfortunately, image files from the Chris White site are copyright so all I can do right now is this link. I'll see if I can find images elsewhere.
> ..


Thanks Andrew,

That's true that Salona has shown some inconsistency in what regards interiors, not properly in quality but on the finish. As I have said they have been improving and the Salona 41 that I sailed this summer was well finished. I hope mine to be as well finished as this 38:

360 - Salona Yachts

That's a nice cat the Chris white 42. The interior seems to be very well finished but the saloon seems small for a 42ft cat. The boat seems fast and it is probably fast, but that cabin looks like a dog house and does not integrate very well in a boat that except that I find a very nice one.

That steering post ahead of the cabin does not seem a good idea to me. On a fast cat going well on the ocean there will be a lot of spray in the air in that place and it will find its way to the eyes of the wheel-man and will enter the cabin when the the door is open.

There is a lot of new cat designs and some very interesting, have a look at this one, the Barramundi 47, a fast voyage cat:










































They also have a 50ft cat:






http://www.barramundi-boats.com/

Regards

Paulo


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## mitiempo

I've never sailed a cat. I have liked Chris White's designs though.

Here's a link to another, but a tri. Hammerhead 54 Trimaran High Performance Cruising Catamarans and Trimarans by Chris White Designs


----------



## tdw

Brian,
Thanks for the extra Atlantic 42 pics. 

Paulo,

There is an A42 moored nearby to us in Sydney and I confess it is for me a lovely thing. I simply love the boats attitude. 

The saloon/deckhouse does appear to be on the small side but it gives you an excellent lounging and dining area , control station and full sized separate navigation centre. All features that I happen to like. The Atlantic also has the galley in the starboard hull which to me makes good sense. Too many cats take up valuable deckhouse space by having the galley up top with the only advantage gained being more sleeping cabins. The A42 is no way a family boat but for a couple she still gets my vote.

One thing about the Barramundi that would rule her out for me is the curved settee. I've mentioned elsewhere that one of my very few criticisms of the Malo are the curved end cushions. They are vaguely acceptable but nit as comfortable for lounging as squared off ends. To my mind curved settees are an utter abomination, a deal breaker for me that is for certain.

Cheers mate

Andrew


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> .. The A42 is no way a family boat but for a couple she still gets my vote...
> 
> One thing about the Barramundi that would rule her out for me is the curved settee. I've mentioned elsewhere that one of my very few criticisms of the Malo are the curved end cushions. They are vaguely acceptable but nit as comfortable for lounging as squared off ends. To my mind curved settees are an utter abomination, a deal breaker for me that is for certain.
> 
> Cheers mate
> Andrew


It looks like a family boat to me and on those photos posted by Brian the saloon looks a bit better, but even so on a small side. The problems with cats is that it is difficult to design a small cat (42ft for an oceanic cat is not big) and make it look good.

Regarding the Barramundi interior I agree with you not necessarily on the rounded shapes, but on its design and that's the reason I did not post any interior photos

But in what regards outside design, well, I think it is better: Can you imagin a big wave with the top crashing over the two boats?

That vertical big surface on the Atlantic would be a lot worse in not offering resistance to the wave than the slick curved shape of the Barramundi and that's about that I was talking about when I have said that I did not like that big doghouse on the Atlantic 42.

I like more the TS cats and those have a good interior. I have posted about them already, about the TS 50 here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats-188.html

and if you missed it go there to see the speed potential of this big "animal"

But the new TS 52.8 seems even better. A delightful long range cruiser, a family boat for sure, and certainly one of the fastest:











Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

The Chris white Atlantic 55 and 57:


----------



## PCP

Hey Andrews,

Regarding Atlantic Cats conception in what regards pilot station, Ssee what I mean regarding having the spray in your face?






And no spray-wood to take cover. I had my share of that and I can tell you that even with a sprayhood that iced water will hit your face to a point it will hurt, not to mention the spectacles that in no time with be full of salt. I use to have a bottle of fresh water to poor over them to take the salt away. Not agreable, but I am sure you had your share too

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

As I have said, a lot of gorgeous cats are hitting the water.

I followed the design of this one. It promised to be a great boat and I think that they have manege to make a great boat: The Alibi 54. Two on the water already.


----------



## PCP

mitiempo said:


> I've never sailed a cat. I have liked Chris White's designs though.
> 
> Here's a link to another, but a tri. Hammerhead 54 Trimaran High Performance Cruising Catamarans and Trimarans by Chris White Designs


I believe we have already talked about this one when Sailingdog was around.

I like the concept of a cruising trimaran, they are more predictable than the cats at the limit and they give plenty warning before capsizing.

Not that cruising cats have any problem if they are sailed wisely, but I am afraid that I like too mutch to go fast to be always wise.

The problem with the trimarans is that they have a lot less space than a cat, even less space than a same sized monohull. The Hammerhead 54 tries to get as much space as you can get...but even so it is not much.



























Blue Water Sailing

I am sure that it is a great cruising fast trimaran but I find the design old. It looks a racing tri from the 80's with a "modern" flashy cabin

I know that Chris white is a legendary NA and that his boats sail well, but I prefer the European legend on cats and trimarans, Erik Le Rouge (I bet that you did not know the guy).

Eric designed a fast cruiser/racer tri, the Pulsar 50 that I like a lot more than the hammerhead. The boat don't pretend to have a great interior space. for that people should buy a cat. No, this boat is about performance cruising with a functional interior and the boat just does both things very well. Have a look:



























































































Some would say this is a racing boat and that nobody is gonna cruise it for any extended period, but they would be wrong. The boat was made by a couple (more than 50 years old) from EriK plans. They finish it and they have circumnavigated with the boat

The boat was sold by its previous owners and is now making its first race, well, not properly a race, sort of. He is making the ARC rally and is leading, beating all the big maxi racing monohulls (90ft) and a fast 66ft cat, a Gunboat with a racing crew (they make a lot of races).

World Cruising Club Arc fleet viewer

Tris 16m

Erik Le Rouge boats are many times home or partially home made and an unusual proportion circumnavigate or sails to faraway places. Have a look:

News

Also an interesting interview with Erik:

An Interview with Multihull Designer Erik Lerouge

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Looking again at the ARC Rally there is a boat that is making a hell of a rally, a boat that is raced frequently with great results, an older boat, an Oyster 48 lightwave.

World Cruising Club Arc fleet viewer

This is a boat designed by Carl Schumacher in 1988 and a remarkably modern boat for its time. this particular Oyster 48 is the ScarletOyster, the boat from the Ellen MacArtur trust boat, a very well crewed boat.

Scarlet Oyster - 48' Oyster Lightwave

OYSTER 48 LIGHTWAVE sailboat on sailboatdata.com





































The boat is among the first and it is chased closely by an Outremer 49 (a cat) and by a Pogo 40.


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Hey Andrews,
> 
> Regarding Atlantic Cats conception in what regards pilot station, Ssee what I mean regarding having the spray in your face?
> 
> snip photo
> 
> And no spray-wood to take cover. I had my share of that and I can tell you that even with a spraywood that iced water will hit your face to a point it will hurt, not to mention the spectacles that in no time with be full of salt. I use to have a bottle of fresh water to poor over them to take the salt away. Not agreable, but I am sure you had your share too
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Spray Wood indeed .... oh I do like typos. 

I must admit that the unprotected forward cockpit is a bit strange. I wonder if a dodger is doable ?

Anyway, this is all academic as a second hand Atlantic 42 is twice what we paid for the Malo so I doubt very much I will ever be considering one. 

That said I reckon I'd be pretty happy with one of the modern cats. I'm not as competitive as you so would be unlikely to push so hard. The interior space, stable platform and shallow draft, have got to be positives.

Cheers

Andrew


----------



## Faster

Another 'thoroughly (surprisingly) modern' old Carl Schumacher design is the Express 37... One of the better boats in that size range from that era, IMO...


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> *Spray Wood* indeed .... oh I do like typos.
> 
> I must admit that the unprotected forward cockpit is a bit strange. I wonder if a dodger is doable ?
> 
> Anyway, this is all academic as a second hand Atlantic 42 is twice what we paid for the Malo so I doubt very much I will ever be considering one.
> 
> That said I reckon I'd be pretty happy with one of the modern cats. I'm not as competitive as you so would be unlikely to push so hard. The interior space, stable platform and shallow draft, have got to be positives.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andrew


OK! Already corrected. You know the biggest difficulty with a foreign language are the words that have a close phonetic sound but are written in a different way. I have to read again to take out typos and some get away. I know that the Ameticans use the word dodger but all the others speaking English prefer Sprayhood and it seems a more specific word to me

Yes a spray-hood it would probably be possible but it would look ugly and I never saw an Atlantic Cat with one.

Andrews, I do not post only boats I could dream to afford. Even if I cannot afford them I like them, the way I like a Porsche or a Ferrari, I mean even more and I like to see and talk about them. Hope that I am not the only one, I mean that like to see and heard about very good and nice boats even if I do not have the money to have them.

About cats and price, I had looked at them as candidates to my personal boat but they are just too expensive, I mean the ones that are fast and seaworthy enough to be safely offshore. I really hate fat cats that are worse sailing than a good boat and are just made to offer a mediocre sailing performance and a huge interior.

There are some small ones that are very good as fast coastal boats and even some medium ones that with a careful sailing are good offshore boats but even those exceed my budget and don't offer the same kind of performance in bad weather a same priced well chosen monohull can offer.

Besides I am not the kind of guy that likes to make defensive sailing and I would be probably in trouble, sooner or later, with one of those small offshore cats

But for a guy that has the money for a 50ft cat there are very interesting propositions in what regards speed, cruising amenities, comfort, space and seaworthiness. I guess that if someone has the money for that it will not be preoccupied with marina prices that in Europe are huge and that, just for that, would take any cat from my list of options: They pay the double of a similar sized monohull.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> Another 'thoroughly (surprisingly) modern' old Carl Schumacher design is the Express 37... One of the better boats in that size range from that era, IMO...






























Yes, I agree, that one deserves a post on this thead.

Even if I don't know much about older boats, I can see that the design is very good and advanced for its time, as it was its building techniques and that raises two questions:

Why the hell did this boat was only built during a short period of time and in so short numbers (1984-88 -65 built)?

Why a man that was way ahead of its time like Carl Schumacher designed so few sailboats?

He was born in 1949 and died in 2002 and almost all its boats were designed over a short period between 1982 and 1988. It seems to me that a lot of talent was wasted

Sailboat Designs of Carl*Schumacher

Back to the Express 37, it was a very light boat, with about 5000kg of weight, about 40% of them in ballast, a moderate beam of 3.51 m and with a hull that looks almost actual the boat could only be very fast and seaworthy.

With that weight the boat had to have a very careful construction using the best available materials and techniques and that was the case. The boat had an Llyods approved balsa-cored hull using acrylic modified epoxy resins applied through vacuum infusion techniques.

Except balsa for the core, this is the materials and techniques that are used to build Salona yachts and that only production builders that make expensive boats use today. That shows how advanced that boat was, not only in design, but also in construction.

Of course, if those techniques are still expensive today I can imagine that back in the 80's the Express 37 was a very expensive boat and perhaps that explains why there was not many built.

The boat design criteria was this:

*The concept for the Express 37 was developed in 1984 by Carl Schumacher and boat builder Terry Alsberg of Alsberg Brothers Boatworks in Santa Cruz. When Schumacher penned the Express 37, his objective was to design a boat that would excel on long ocean races, that was easy and safe to sail short-handed, and would have at least 6' of standing headroom. The first boats built by Alsberg Brother Boatworks finished 1, 2 and 3 in the 1985 TransPac, an ocean race held on the West Coast. There were eventually 65 built and these boats continue to compile an enviable record.

Schumacher's design has come to be referred to as a "masthead-fractional" rig, given the large, low-aspect main and small, high-aspect foretriangle. Helmsmen and trimmers find the design more forgiving to sail than a fractional rig. With a high ballast-to-displacement ratio ... she's also a stiff boat well suited for windy condition like those on San Francisco Bay. With an active fleet on both East and West coasts, the Express 37 is a testament to Schumacher's talent and the enduring appeal of the yachts he designed. 
*

Express 37

John Kretschmer said about it in a 2005 review:

A fast, fun, one-design racer turned cruiser from the ULDB era
...
The design criteria for the 37 was clear from the beginning. Schumacher and Alsberg wanted an off-the-wind rocket ship that was big enough and tough enough to stand up to the rigors of long-distance offshore racing. And they achieved their objective almost immediately. Introduced in late 1984, the first Express 37s finished first, second and third in class in the 1985 Transpac Race.

Alsberg, who learned his trade working for ULDB guru Ron Moore, did a terrific job of building the Express series, which later included a 34-footer. Some say he built the boats too well, and by 1989 his shop was in trouble and soon out of business...

The Express 37 is deceptive, at first glance it doesn't look like an offshore-capable thoroughbred, it can be easily mistaken for a run of the mill, racer-cruiser style production boat... A careful inspection of the underbody lines reveals flat, flared sections forward and this, no doubt, helps the 37 surf on even modest waves. The keel is a narrow-cord foil slightly raked aft. The balanced rudder is placed well aft. Weight is centered in the middle of the boat to keep the ends light and buoyant and again to facilitate getting up on top of the water.

The double-spreader rig is moderate in proportion and the sailplan includes a large, relatively low-aspect main and smaller, high-aspect headsail. This rig has been coined a "masthead fractional rig," which handles like a fractional rig but delivers more horsepower and trims more efficiently. Displacement numbers seem to vary, the original design called for 9,500 pounds of displacement and 4,500 pounds of ballast. According to some reports, Schumacher claimed the finished boat weighed in closer to 11,000 pounds ..

To a build a light boat that can stand up to the demands and loads of serious ocean racing, you have to build it well, and that was certainly the case with the Express 37. The hand-laid-up, vacuum-bagged hull is balsa-cored and Alsberg was one of the first builders to use vinylester resin in the outer layers to prevent blisters. The deck is also balsa-cored and joined to the hull on a typical inward flange and bonded with 3M 5200 and stainless screws.

.. Few if any hull problems have been reported by owners. Indeed, the 37's hull is known for being virtually bulletproof. Also, the older Express 37s that I have examined are remarkably free of gelcoat crazing and cracking; the original fiberglass work was excellent...

Although there is little doubt that the deck layout was designed for racing, it is surprisingly easy to convert to a more cruiser-friendly arrangement, especially shorthanded cruising. All mast and sail control lines are led aft to the cockpit and can be controlled from a position standing in the companionway. This is not a bad system, it keeps crew weight centered and safely in the boat. The cockpit is set up for efficient sail trimming, with the mainsheet traveler on a bridge just aft of the companionway, the primaries outboard and the tiller well aft. A few boats came with wheel steering and others have been retrofitted but the boat is made for tiller steering.
...
While nobody will confuse the interior of the Express 37 with a Cabo Rico, it is functional and reasonably comfortable. ... There isn't much storage as tanks take up the space below the settees, although there are small overhead lockers along the hull sides.
....
The MK II Express 37 featured a much better interior plan. Not only is it finished nicer but the arrangement is much improved. There is a real V-berth double, a comfortable saloon, a U-shaped galley and a double quarter cabin aft to port.

Unfortunately only 10 MK IIs were built...

Underway:
This is what it's all about and it is the reason you buy an Express 37-the boat sails brilliantly. Designed to fly off the wind, the 37 also sails fast upwind.

"The boat just has great bone-it is tough, I'd sail mine anywhere," said Schneider, the San Francisco Bay fleet captain and 37 devotee.

It has to be to stand up to 20 years of racing in the bay. While it is not at its best upwind in light air, the 37 finds it stride when the wind pipes up. Extremely close winded, the boat can carry decent headsails even blasting to weather, although the typical technique of dumping the main to keep the boat relatively flat is definitely the fastest way to sail. The Express 37 PHRF rating seems to range around 70.

...Although class rules allow for up eight crew, the boat can be sailed safely even in, as Schneider calls them, "gnarly conditions offshore," short-handed. The boat is light but so are the loads.

Conclusion:
The Express 37 offers exhilarating performance both on and off the racecourse. ..Also, following the trend of their boats, as racing sailors get older and migrate toward more casual sailing, a logical decision might be to convert a 37 into more of a cruising boat. With prices hovering around $80,000, the Express 37 is a terrific value.

Express 37

Here we have a movie with a Expres37 modified Salona 37 like, I mean the open cockpit and the transom bench:






And some racing:











Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Less than two months for the election of the European boat of the year and sailboat magazine journalists from many European countries are busy sail testing all the boats. The boats nominated are:

*Family Cruiser Category*:

Bénéteau Oceanis 45 
Elan 210 
Dufour 445 Grand'Large 
RM 1060 
Sun Odyssey 379

*Luxury Cruiser category*:

Amel 64
Bénéteau Sense 50 
Bestewind 50 
Hallberg Rassy 64 
Oyster 625

*Performance Cruiser Category:*

Dehler 41 
Grand Soleil 50 
Pogo 12:50 
J-111 
XP 44

*Yachts Special Category:*

Tarac 
Kay's 22 
Dinamica 940 
Eagle 44 
Esse 750

And they have not been very lucky with the weather

It is in German but the movies are very interesting and show great images of some beautiful new boats:

*MOVIE:*

EYOTY 2011/2012: Rauschefahrt vor Barcelona - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE

*MOVIE:*

EYOTY 2011/2012: Sturmfahrt der Nominierten - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE


----------



## PCP

Looking at the boats at the ARC Rally, today's boat is a surprise for me: A almost new Contest 62 that is making a very fast rally ahead of many boats that theoretically should be fast.

World Cruising Club Arc fleet viewer

The boats is among the leading boats, just at short distance of the Pogo 40 and not far away of the Oyester 48 we talk on a previous test. Big deal you would say, it is a 62 ft boat. Yes but is also a luxuriant push pull button sailing boat, not properly a boat that one thought fast. Well, it is.

Contest are not very well known in America but was a popular boat in Europe. It was a kind of Dutch Halberg Rassy, perhaps even considered stronger and it is a highly sought boat on the used market for the ones that want a voyage boat. But then, probably because the boat was expensive they stop making small boats and dedicated themselves only to make big luxuriant boats and much of the mystic went away.

well, luxurious, push button and all, it seems that they are still making dam good boats

Contest Yachts | 62CS











Edit:

Well, the Contest just overtake the Pogo 40 and the Oyster 48 

Big battle for line honors between the big 90ft maxi and the 50ft trimaran.


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## blt2ski

Was looking at a local freeby rag, 48north.......local tartan dealer's add had something that said what I thought "new28", along with the normal other Tartans......looked online......interesting little 26' boat to say the least! now will it sell etc.....

Tartan Yachts Article

Going back to the express 37. There are a few of them here in puget sound. One, Declaration of Independence. or DoI won the 48north best of the top 25 yearly for about 5 or 6 maybe 7 yrs running. Others also won a lot of races too. The DOI disappeared. Not sure if Brian still owns it, or retired her.........Very fast boats.

Marty


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## blt2ski

then another tartan/c&c new boat
C&C Yachts Article - Introducing The New C&C 101

Hopefully maybe sorta kinda another NA builder will start building some neat designed boats eh!

anyway, late here on the left coast of NA, so how is tomorrow working out for all the rest of the 22 or 23 times zones ahead of me in the world?

marty


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## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Was looking at a local freeby rag, 48north.......local tartan dealer's add had something that said what I thought "new28", along with the normal other Tartans......looked online......interesting little 26' boat to say the least! now will it sell etc.....
> 
> Tartan Yachts Article
> 
> Going back to the express 37. There are a few of them here in puget sound. One, Declaration of Independence. or DoI won the 48north best of the top 25 yearly for about 5 or 6 maybe 7 yrs running. Others also won a lot of races too. The DOI disappeared. Not sure if Brian still owns it, or retired her.........Very fast boats.
> 
> Marty


Thanks Marty,

Yes, it looks to be a very nice daysailer, fast and beautiful and it seems that it is only the first of a new series and that bigger boats will follow:

The Fantail Series is the first new model development by Jackett Yacht Design and Development for Tartan Yachts. *The Fantail Series is available in three configurations; The DS (Daysailor), WE (Weekender), and the ST (Sail Trainer)*. All three feature classic good looks, "sit in" not "sit on" sailing, efficient high performance and a "green" sailing experience.

The hull form is a contemporary shape without extremes, designed to deliver predictable and rewarding performance. She has a fine entry forward with plenty of hull volume in the topsides to properly balance the full aft sections. Through her mid body the sections are vee'd for a sea kindly motion.Running aft the sections are broad and flat for great stability and off the wind performance. The freeboard must be carefully balanced to provide adequate sitting headroom below, a dry ride on deck and exceptional good looks.The Fantail strikes the perfect balance. The Fantail is not a "retro design" or bare bones, white-knuckle race boat, but rather a well-mannered, high performance, contemporary design with classic lines.



















Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

blt2ski said:


> then another tartan/c&c new boat
> C&C Yachts Article - Introducing The New C&C 101
> 
> Hopefully maybe sorta kinda another NA builder will start building some neat designed boats eh!
> 
> anyway, late here on the left coast of NA, so how is tomorrow working out for all the rest of the 22 or 23 times zones ahead of me in the world?
> 
> marty


Olé!, this one seems to be made for you Marty.

Very nice boat with impressive specs! A truly modern design.



















Designer Comments

From the bottom of her lead keel bulb, to the tip of her carbon fiber mast, the new C&C 101 is designed and built to accommodate the discerning sailor. The C&C 101 offers a hull design that is built to maximize performance on the water and incorporates the most advanced boatbuilding technology in the market.

*An ergonomic deck layout with a wide open cockpit and an easily handled sailplan eliminates the need for an army of crew and guarantees to put a smile on all those who sail her*.A functional interior to meet the needs of overnighting and distance racing eliminates parasitic weight, minimizes maintenance and guarantees maximum time on the water.

The all new C&C 101 is fast, fun, and functional.

The C&C 101 hull is designed to maximize overall performance without trending to any extreme, creating a boat that offers exhilarating performance on all points of sail. Her nearly 11 foot beam offersexcellent form stability and in conjunction with the 6'6" bulbed lead keel provides the stiffness to support a sail area to displacement ratio of 25.8.

*With a BPA modified epoxy infused hull and deck, optimized uni-directional e-glass laminates, and synthetic hull coring, the 101 is the stiffest, lightest and strongest hull structure available in her size range amongst production builders.*

*The 101 features a fractional carbon fiber mast, carbon fiber rudder post and retractable carbon fiber bow sprit.Co-engineered by C&C Yachts and SP Systems, the world leader in composite engineering and materials technology*....

...The retractable carbon fiber bow sprit and masthead asymmetrical spinnakers ensure exhilarating off wind performance while making the sailplan easily manageable when cruising or shorthanded.

*Below decks, the new C&C 101 offers refined luxury in line with her pedigree.Lightweight composite components combined with varnished cherry cabinetry and laminated curved trims provide a spacious and comfortable interior while minimizing weight*. Bulkheads are attached to hull, deck and interior components using engineered adhesives and epoxy resins; adding stiffness to the hull structure without adding weight....

Aerospace quality composites, modern construction techniques and careful attention to detail afford the 101 with an interior arrangement that belies her performance capabilities...

Tom McNeill, C&C 101 Designer

I hope they can make it affordable because this just seems to be a very interesting boat

The only thing I don't understand is the tankage. This boat with a super sailing performance will only need the engine as an auxiliary and a 18hp diesel engine needs very little fuel to keep running. I don't understand why this boat needs a 75L fuel tank. A 35/50 L tank would be more than enough and those extra 40L would be better employed in water tankage. 113L of water seems a bit short to me.

Design Dimensions

LOA.....33'0" (10.0 m)
Beam.....10' 11-1/2"(3.34 m)
Draft.....6'6"(1.98 m)
Displacement......8100 lbs (3674 kg)

Capacities
Fuel.....20 gallons (75.7 l)
Water.....30 gallons (113.6 l)
Auxiliary.....18 hp diesel saildrive
Berths.....6

Sail Dimensions
Sail Area.....671 sq ft (62.3 sq m)

Mainsail Area.....399 sq ft (37.06 sq m) 
100% Foretriangle.....272 sq ft (25.27 sq m)
Bridge Clearance.....54'6"(16.61 m)
Ballast/Displacment......40
Displacement/Length.....136

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

This time Golias beat David, but just by a little bit

I am talking about the ARC rally where the 93ft Maxi racer Med Spirit (ex Bols) beat by about 1 hour the cruiser/racer Rayon Vert (a Pulsar 50ft trimaran that had already circumnavigate while cruising).

The 17 guys crew on the Maxi had finally managed to beat the 5 guys crew (father and son, more three friends) on the trimaran, that lead most of the race.

Some Images of the 2003 93ft canting keel Med spirit, and a movie:




























*MOVIE:*

Bols Maxi - YouTube

The Gunboat 66 Cat and maxi Rothmans racing boat have already arrived and VAQUITA, the 40ft Aquilaria racer is also very near, leaving the rest of the boats way back.

Some thought about the first to arrive: All the monohulls that constituted the first pack (far away from all the others) were racing boats, two big maxis and a small 40class racer. The two multihulls that had a similar performance were cruiser/racers, being the Gunboat 66 a luxurious cruiser, while the Pulsar 50 offers a good but more spartan accommodation.

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/ne...&ArchiveID=1&CategoryID=71&ItemID=173629&src=

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/viewer.aspx

..


----------



## PCP

May I also call your attention to Optim'x, a French X-40 very well crewed that has made a great race and it is now on a strategic position to a very fast finish, overtaking several much bigger boats?

World Cruising Club Arc fleet viewer

I think that among small performance cruisers this is going to be the first to finish beating a British First 40.

The X 40 is yet on the line of x yachts, but it will be replaced soon by a faster and more modern boat, but as it is, it is a delightful cruiser with all amenities and interior comfort while maintaining a very good sailing performance.


----------



## PCP

Well, that one is out of topic, but it is so beautiful and frighten I had to share it with you. It is about sea and boats and remember us that we all sail in small boats and that the sea can be huge


----------



## PCP

We have already talked here about the Pacer, a very interesting South African boat (race and performance cruiser) that has started a world wide expansion. It has already dealers in several European countries.

The boats are very well designed and have an interesting price.

Some interesting videos, this one about fast sailing (the better comes after the middle):






And this one about the 400. I have already posted about the boat and it is the one that I find more interesting for cruising. The boat has a good interior with closed cabins and a warm ambiance. Great stability on a fast boat.


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## PCP

Pacer are great boats but as all boats it has a limit and when you really push the envelope....


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## PCP

Beautiful movie. Don't miss this one

A sail celebration: Old and new boats, young and old sailors all together sharing sail pleasure in Seattle, USA.


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## PCP

Very nice movie from North Sails:






And also very interesting movie from Delta voiles about a very interesting new furling sail that is a mix of a spinnaker with a gennaker and also and occasion to see the beautiful XC 42 sailing with light wind:






If you want to know more or discuss it, I opened a thread about this new sail:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/81374-code-d-gennaker-spinnaker.html


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## blt2ski

need to watch the seattle sailing movie, but I believe fromt he front still, that is a duck dodge race on lk union. not too many rules, no real sponsors per say. Rule #1 is "don't hit the ducks" this can mean feather style, or the MANY amphibious "DUCK" boat/cars that do tours here in Seattle.

That C&C looks like a possible boat, now if I can get funds together etc.

Marty


----------



## PCP

Looking at the ARC Rally:

World Cruising Club Arc fleet viewer

Vaquita, the 40ft class 40 has already arrived making an incredible passage in 12 days and it was the first boat from the racing class to arrive leaving the next one, a Swan 56 at 36 hours

That French X40 that I had talked about yesterday (Optim'st) is also making a hell of a passage, coming down at almost 9K and closing on the 83ft it has ahead (a Camper and Nicholson). They have been making equal game with a Shipman 63, a very fast boat. This shows how fast is that boat and how good are the ones that are crewing it. Chapeau

But today's boat is a cat, a 58ft cat, the Wave 58 "Santa Maria". The wave 58 is not one of those cats that are aiming primarily for performance, this boat has a great interior, a living interior. I guess that with a space like that I would consider to sell my house and live all time in a boat. Of course this boat even if not expensive for its quality and size would pay a fortune in any Med marina

The boat is making a great passage considering that he has not a race crew (they were taking "passengers" for the ARC) and is a bit ahead of that X 40 I was talking about.
































































*And don't miss these 360º photos*, they show well the interior quality (put it in full screen)

Wave 58 "Sta Maria" | Wave Catamarans

The boat is going to stay on charter on the Caribbean, maybe some of you will end up enjoying it. 

....


----------



## PCP

Some posts back I talked about Hetairos, the new beautiful super yacht with a traditional look designed by Dykstra:










First race, first victory: The boat won the Trans-Atlantic Super Yacht Regatta leaving the most close pursuer at 400Nm. It crossed in a bit more than 8 days, with an average speed of 15.12 knots. That's fast

Beautiful, classic and fast. I like this one


----------



## PCP

And also for the ones that read French (if not you can use google translater) a very interesting interview with Jimmy Cornell in Voile and Voiliers:

Interview du «pape» de la grande croisière Jimmy Cornell : «En Papouasie, on s

Notice the 3 boats that he chose for his voyages and his evolution in what regards the perfect cruising long range cruiser (pictures on the article):

The first one, an heavy 36ft Trintella Ketch, almost a motorsailer (sailed with it 6 years), than a probably faster but heavy steel 40ft center cockpit an one off designed by Bill Dixon (sailed with it 5 years) and the last one, an aluminium centerboard, an OVNI 43 (sailed with it 13 years and made 70000nm).

When asked what boat he would chose now to circumnavigate he said:

"*An aluminium centerboarder, probably the Allures 45*."

He said also regarding long range cruisers (translated):

*"I advocate for light cruising sailboats, but in the Anglo-Saxon countries, the idea is struggling to win! This is less true in France ..."*

And when they ask:

*"What is your view about the development of cruising sailboats"?*

He says:

* The racing sailboats have evolved rapidly in recent years, as opposed to cruising yachts. The racing yacht design has not yet sent all its developments to the world of cruising yacht design.

At a conference the other day, I was asked, "Why is there is no (liquid?) ballast on cruise ships?" And it's a good question!

Cruising sailboats are more comfortable and more spacious, but they are not really exciting and it is the fault of the cruising sailors who feel that going at 6 knots its all right ... The boats are often still too heavy in their displacement and rudders not strong enough. 
*

Well, talks the voice of experience. It is refreshing to hear his opinion after all those books (12) and articles by John Vigor defending the heavy good old boats as the only good offshore boats

It is worth to remember that the main Vigor offshore experience was 1 transat in a heavy 30ft while Cornell has circumnavigated several times, made more than 200000Nm in all the oceans, including the Arctic and the Antarctic and has circumnavigated in heavy and light boats, having a huge experience with both type of boats.

.....


----------



## PCP

Well, and after this expert opinion what better than to have another look at one of those light exciting boats that have taken a lot of developments from racing yachts and the ones that are more relevant for cruising, small solo ocean racers, I am talking about Pogo that has made available some interesting and nice movies:

This one show its hi-tech manufacturing facility and several boats being built (hey Eric, which of those is your's?).






Chantier Naval Structures from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.

About the Pogo 12.50 (Eric's boat)






Pogo 12.50 , Chantier Naval Structures from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.

About the Pogo 10.50






Pogo 10.50 , Chantier Naval Structures from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.

About the racing class40






Untitled from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> This one show its hi-tech manufacturing facility and several boats being built (hey Eric, which of those is your's?).


Unfortunately none of these, Paulo! When they started infusing our hull, the 12.50 you see being launched was already in the water. This is what ours looked like when we last visited the yard five weeks ago.


Van Drop Box

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Well, I was wrong. The Salona 35 is not yet on the water. I was fooled by one of the best photo-realistic images I have ever seen. This one (now bigger):










But I have some news, the price will start at 99 500€ with special prices for first boats. The boat comes with only one interior, this one:










And they released the polar speed prediction:










This are the speeds with the genoa and main. As you can see, as in the Salona 41 I sail this summer, the speeds with light wind are very good:

The boat can make 4.8K with 4k wind, with 5.5K with 5K wind and 6.2 with 6K wind. I wonder with a geenaker at 90º what would be the speed with 4K wind? probably 6K

Downwind the speed is also very good. the boat makes 9.3K at 90º with 25k wind and over 10K at 110º. This is a very good performance for a 35ft boat

with spinnaker with 25K at 130º the boat makes 10.5K and I wonder what speed it will make with a really strong wind like 30 or 35K. I guess this boat will be able to go at 12/13K.

I will be very curious to see this boat at Dusseldorf boat show. If the interior is as good as the drawing lead to believe, it will be a very interesting boat


----------



## bb74

PCP said:


> Pacer are great boats but as all boats it has a limit and when you really push the envelope....


Guy was lucky he had a vest on and didn't bang is head going over - 10 mins is a long time with the water at 11° and with the wave conditions and visibility.

Another reason an overlapping foresail is pretty important if you want to power down without having to drop the main.

Having a guy in the water and the other guy with the camera still filming the crew and boat as opposed to acting as the spotter seems a bit dumb if you ask me but I guess they'll learn by trial and error. It may seem benign at hte moment, but any MOB should be taken very seriously - surely more important than a youtube vid.


----------



## G1000

There is *no* guy with the camera! Most likely it is GoPro HD camera mounted on pole.


----------



## bb74

G1000 said:


> There is *no* guy with the camera! Most likely it is GoPro HD camera mounted on pole.


OK - that makes me feel better about that crew... Thanks for catching that - I didn't want to come across as a jerk but I hadn't thought about that option


----------



## EricKLYC

I'm sure Paulo will come across this litlle boat at the Nautic in Paris, intended to be a used as a dinghy: the Albatros, designed by Jean-Marie Finot.









A very particular dingy, since the "daggerboard" is in fact ballasted with 30kg of lead, making the boat much more stable and forgiving than one would expect. It pivots under the hull, a design also seen on the First Class 8 and the cruising Pogo's. But it also seems to cant automatically, in a way I don't quite understand.









Otherwise it looks a lot like a mini Pogo with one rudder, don't you think?

















It also seems to behave in a similar way, intended to be sailed with a little heel and able to plane quickly, even upwind.

Carbon mast, retractable bowsprit, textile rigging and built in a light and rigid material called Evolite which is also used in automobiles.

It is also said to be very safe, without requiring athletic capacities to be sailed well









Finot and their partners intend to build this boat in very large numbers, at a standard price of € 6.000.
Both Voiles Magazine and Voiles & Voiliers test sailed it and were quite enthousiastic.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Norwegian article about J/111, Xp44, Grand Soleil 50 and Pogo 12.50: Fantastic sharp sailors


Interesting

All main European boat magazines are testing those boats that are nominated for the European boat of the year, those comments come from the Guys from Seilas, the Norse magazine and even if the google translation is a bit funny, it seems that they were really impressed with the Pogo 12.50.

But as I have said that is a "funny" translation: It appears the word pretentious in what regards the Grand Soleil 50 and I am quite sure that is not the right translation. The boat is not pretentious, is just much more luxurious than the Xp 44 and almost as fast and as they say, less of a racer and more of a performance cruiser and a very good one. In fact, the title should be translated as "Fantastic sharp sailboats" and that means all of them: J/111, Xp44, Grand Soleil 50 and Pogo 12.50

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> I'm sure Paulo will come across this litlle boat at the Nautic in Paris, intended to be a used as a dinghy: the Albatros, designed by Jean-Marie Finot.
> 
> View attachment 9525
> 
> 
> A very particular dingy, since the "daggerboard" is in fact ballasted with 30kg of lead, making the boat much more stable and forgiving than one would expect. It pivots under the hull, a design also seen on the First Class 8 and the cruising Pogo's. But it also seems to cant automatically, in a way I don't quite understand.
> 
> View attachment 9526
> 
> 
> Otherwise it looks a lot like a mini Pogo with one rudder, don't you think?
> 
> View attachment 9527
> 
> 
> View attachment 9528
> 
> 
> It also seems to behave in a similar way, intended to be sailed with a little heel and able to plane quickly, even upwind.
> 
> Carbon mast, retractable bowsprit, textile rigging and built in a light and rigid material called Evolite which is also used in automobiles.
> 
> It is also said to be very safe, without requiring athletic capacities to be sailed well
> 
> View attachment 9529
> 
> 
> Finot and their partners intend to build this boat in very large numbers, at a standard price of € 6.000.
> Both Voiles Magazine and Voiles & Voiliers test sailed it and were quite enthousiastic.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Well Eric, the only boat I could not resist to take a snapshot with the mobilphone was this one










The boat is so sexy I had to resist not to buy one










And on this picture you have Jean Marie Finot and his wife having fun in it like kids!!! You have to love that guy: Has designed all sort of great sailboats, from Open 60's to Pogos, to Cigales or some of the best Benetaus and still obviously having pleasure not only in designing very simple, fast and affordable sailboats, but also in sailing them






Yes, that boat is going to be a hit and it should be because it is so beautiful that it has to be a great sailboat.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Some Interesting boats at the Paris boat: The Dufour 36 performance





































It is a very innovative boat and it seems to point a bit more towards performance and racing than the other boats on the Dufour performance line.





































*As negative points* the the galley. It is not big but the worse is the big cool box cover. How they would expect a guy to cook if when you open the (big) cover all the space for having thing on the bench go way with the cover? .



















The boat does not have cabinets on the saloon, except over the galley and that limits storage.










Outside the boat has only one decent storage space, since the removable coffers are really very small and even if that is interesting to racing, in what regards cruising the outside access to the main storage space is not very practical. It is on the floor of the aft part of the cockpit near the end of the boat. That space is also accessed from the inside, through the head but that does not entirely compensate the bad access from outside.










*The positive points* are many, from a double door to the front cabin that now several boats are using to give a sense of more interior volume, like a loft (and visually it works) to a well designed saloon table with lots of storage space to a possibility of having two 150L water tank that can work as water ballast to a good wet cabinet or a big spinnaker pool that is not very intrusive on the front cabin and is completely waterproof.










Felci, the designer says the boat is optimized to sail heeled and that it has a bit more forward volume than it is usual on its other designs. I guess that will provide a boat that will have more form stability and that will plan sooner. The interior also looks modern and nice in a zen kind of way.

*Take a look at the movie:
*
Dufour 36 Performance : l'élégance et la modernité

It's main competitors will be the First 35, the Elan 350 and the new Salona 35 and in what regards the ones I knew already (The Elan 350 and the First 35) I doubt that the Dufour 36p is a better cruising boat. Of course the First need to change rapidly that big wheel by a two will set up. The cockpit is really much more accessible with a two wheel set-up and not only while at anchor but also for a solo sailor needing to access the front winches, but in what regards storage space and access to storage and galley space, the Dufour seemed worse to me.
















First 35 / First / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU











http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/elan_350_.swf

Of course I did not saw the better part of it (I hope) because the Dufour 36p looks like a hell of a sailboat and I will bet that it is fast

....

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Cruising World Announces 2012 BOTY Winners | Cruising World

Be it you agree, or do not agree, there is this years BOTY winners from Cruising World announced this morning. Sailing World should have their BOTY winners up in the next day or two or three. SW will be pointed towards the Performance/race end of the spectrum, CW cruise spectrum. You would not find a pogo if available at the boat show they did this at, being rated by CW judges, that would be SW judges.

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Cruising World Announces 2012 BOTY Winners | Cruising World
> 
> Be it you agree, or do not agree, there is this years BOTY winners from Cruising World announced this morning. Sailing World should have their BOTY winners up in the next day or two or three. SW will be pointed towards the Performance/race end of the spectrum, CW cruise spectrum. You would not find a pogo if available at the boat show they did this at, being rated by CW judges, that would be SW judges.
> 
> Marty


Marty, don't mean to offend you or any American but I don't see those awards as very meaningful. I had given up reading those magazines years ago. On their tests they say well from all boats they test and they rely so much on publicity that they can offer their magazines almost for nothing in the internet. I never saw there a comparative test with both boats at the water at the same time. I guess they would have to say that one sailed better than the other and they cannot, or don't want, to say that.

Just look at the boat they have chosen as best import, a Leopard 44

of course:

*Robertson and Caine design and build the Leopard line of blue water cruising catamarans. As the world wide dealer, Leopard Catamarans is proud to say that over 800 Leopard cats have now sailed more than 7 million miles and the world's largest oceans.*

They are the ones that sell, kind of condo on sails, that even don't sail too badly, except of course if a wave comes crashing on that huge vertical front doors or if you want to go upwind with a strong wind. This boat going upwind offers a huge frontal resistance and if the wind is strong and the sails are reefed, I would not be surprised if the windage was more than the sail power

Take a look at the boat :










And they have preferred that boat, that is obviously pointed to the charter market (sunsail cat) condo thing over a boat like the PT-11 or the Outemer 49 that are good sailboats with a good interior? What kind of sailors are these testers? Marina sailors?










Outremer Catamaran - Our Catamarans - Outremer 49

PT-11 by Performance Multihulls

And regarding the rest, what kind of prizes are that?

For the best import? For the best Domestic boat?

Boats are boats, the best is the best, imported or not. And the best domestic boat (Jeanneau 379) is a French boat? Allright, it is made in America, but how come that the Passport Vista 545 is not considered an Import? It is made in China, not in the US.

To put things even more strange, they mix in the same category boats pointed at obvious different sailing markets. You can compare only what is comparable. What is the point to compare a Passport 545 with a Bavaria cruiser 45 and a Benetau Oceanis 45? They don't belong to the same market segment. The Passport should be compared with the new Oyster 625, the Halberg Rassy 64 or the Amel 64, the best boats from that segment that come out this year and I believe all of them are sold in America.

Just to put things even more funny, Bavaria has announced that their 45 had won the sail magazine boat of the year award:

Bavaria Yachts USA announced that the Bavaria Cruiser 45 has been chosen as SAIL Magazine's Best Boat 2012 Winner among cruising monohulls under 50ft. SAIL magazine's annual Best Boat Award recognizes the best new sailboat introduced into the North American market.

Read more: Bavaria Yacht's Cruiser 45 has been chosen SAIL Magazine's Best Boat 2012 Winner



So, to cruising world the best is the Tartan 4000, for sail magazine the best is the Bavaria 45 (they run on the same category).

It seems to me that they should have a more serious contest involving all major sailing magazines in the United States, have sensible and logical categories and chose the best boat from each category, independently from the origin, providing it was sold in the US. One boat, not several boats, depending on the magazine or regarding its origin

You know that I am not saying that the Jeanneau 379 is a bad boat, you know that I don't think that, but that award is pretty meaningless, except for commercial purposes.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Melrna

PCP said:


> Marty, don't mean to offend you or any American but I don't see those awards as very meaningful. I had given up reading those magazines years ago. On their tests they say well from all boats they test and they rely so much on publicity that they can offer their magazines almost for nothing in the internet. I never saw there a comparative test with both boats at the water at the same time. I guess they would have to say that one sailed better than the other and they cannot, or don't want, to say that.
> 
> Just look at the boat they have chosen as best import, a Leopard 44
> 
> of course:
> 
> *Robertson and Caine design and build the Leopard line of blue water cruising catamarans. As the world wide dealer, Leopard Catamarans is proud to say that over 800 Leopard cats have now sailed more than 7 million miles and the world's largest oceans.*


I test sail a Leopard 39 last saturday in some nasty wind and waves. I have to say I was very very impressed with the performance. We did take a huge wave over the bow to stern buried the bow into the wave and the boat did very well losing only a few knots than speed right back up to 7kts at 40 degrees AWA. 
We had a reef in the main and full jib out in 23-28 knots of wind. Boat flew. 
I love this boat except the helm station ergonomics I thought could use another revamp from Robertson and Cain.

[/QUOTE] You know that I am not saying that the Jeanneau 379 is a bad boat, you know that I don't think that, but that award is pretty meaningless, except for commercial purposes. [/QUOTE]
I couldn't have said it any better!


----------



## blt2ski

LOL paulo and melissa! re the awards being good bad or otherwise! Please note my first line,

_"Be it you agree, or do not agree, there is this years BOTY winners from Cruising World announced this morning."_

The Tartan.........they seem to be suckers for them! That thing is a C&C 121 with a different deck and sail plan from what I can tell! An 8 yr old hull getting BOTY!LOL What the he!! are thee thinking!

Part of the problem/issue if you will, is many of the major European brands do not sell here NA, so the "BETTER" boats if you will do not show up, so they do not get rated, hence why I can see where "MUCH" of the world does not follow or worry about how well CW/SW votes boats in for BOTY!

I have not personally been on the Jeanneau as of yet, other than knowing a few that have, it appears to be well thought out and sails well for what its intent and application is. "Is it the Best?!?!?!?" like ALL things great and small......maybe/maybe not!

Marty


----------



## PCP

Melrna said:


> I test sail a Leopard 39 last saturday in some nasty wind and waves. I have to say I was very very impressed with the performance. We did take a huge wave over the bow to stern buried the bow into the wave and the boat did very well losing only a few knots than speed right back up to 7kts at 40 degrees AWA.
> We had a reef in the main and full jib out in 23-28 knots of wind. Boat flew.
> I love this boat except the helm station ergonomics I thought could use another revamp from Robertson and Cain.
> ..


Nice to have you joining the posters on this thread

Melrna, Robertson and Caine the South Africans that make the Leopard certainly know how to do a good cat and they have made them for many years before becoming the designers for Moorings that also own Sunsail. 85% of their boats are for them. Only 15% to other clients and many of them are also charter operators. Do you see the picture?

The Leopard are great cats for what they are made for: Charter on nice seas.

What pissed me off is that among the boats on the contest was an Outremer 49 that any cat lover know that it is an incredibly boat (2011 European cat) even better than the older model that was already one of the best bluewater cats around: Great interior, superior seaworthiness and fantastic speed. The old 49 is one of the cats with more circumnavigations in its belly.

But then I confess that I really don't understand the way that thing about boat of the year is run down there because THE OUTREMER 49 WAS BOAT OF THE YEAR FOR SAILBOAT MAGAZINE 

I guess that if 10 sail American boat magazines chose a boat of the year you will get 10 boats of the year

*Take a look at the movie:*

http://www.sailmagazine.com/best-boats-2012-outremer-49#ooid=J2bnUwMzo-zr_JMX5tleSAVWPkQ6Hn0f

http://www.catamaran-outremer.com/en/Outremer-Catamarans/Modele/Outremer-49-#3

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> ..
> 
> I have not personally been on the Jeanneau as of yet, other than knowing a few that have, it appears to be well thought out and sails well for what its intent and application is. "Is it the Best?!?!?!?" like ALL things great and small......maybe/maybe not!
> Marty


Well, I have been on the Jeanneau 379 and even if it is a nice boat its interior is not a match in interior design and overall balance with the Jeanneau 409 but it is a nice boat, specially if we consider that it is a 36ft boat and not a 38ft boat, as its name lead to suppose. In my opinion the exterior design is better as well as it's sailing performance. We visited also the Dufour 375 and like it more (the Dufour 375 is also a 36ft boat). Both boats should have very similar performances.

Of course the Dufour 375 was probably nominated last year? and the ones that where on contest with the Jeanneau 379 where:

Midsize Cruisers, 36 to 40 Feet:

Bavaria Cruiser 36
Catalina 385
Hallberg-Rassy 372
Island Packet 360
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 379

From this ones I think that the best balanced boat is the Halberg Rassy 372. This boat started a revolution in Halberg Rassy and its demand made them start a new line of more modern cruisers, not only boats with a great interior but also very good sailing boats.

The boat was European boat of the year in 2010 and won in 2009 a famous test sail promoted by Norwegian, Swedish and German Yacht magazines, with all boats at the water at the same time. The other boats were: FinnFlyer 36, Grand Soleil 37, Arcona 370, Salona 37, Linjett 37, Elan 380 and SwedeStar 370.

They have said about the HR 371: *"The Hallberg-Rassy 372 impressed with her good sailing performance. She performs surprisingly well compared to other boats who call themselves cruiser-racers"... No other boat got so many ten pointers as the 372 for interior, details, brightness, ventilation, choice of materials, galley and sleeping comfort". *











The Halberg Rassy 372 was a revolutionary boat and with the Xc 42 created a new generation of sailboats: Luxurious cruising boats with a very good sail performance.

Of course in Europe the HR 372 would not compete on the same category with the Jeanneau 379. The HR would be competing on the Luxurious cruisers and the Jeanneau on the Family cruisers, but if you put both competing together on the same category, well, the Jeanneau would not be a match to the HR 379 and I don' understand why they have prefered the Jeanneau over the HR 372.

Regarding the other boats in competition it is clear to me that the Jeanneau 379 is a more modern boat with Bavaria 36 not far.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Hei guys have you followed the Banque Populaire attempt on the world record circumnavigation?

They have been doing a fantastic job and have a big advance over the last record: Great boat, great sailors, great sailing






30/35/40 K wind, 35/40K speed

Look at the end of the movie when the guy got the water full on his face (and camera). What would be the apparent wind? No wonder they use that kind of motorcycle helmet I know that water hitting the face at 35/40 K can be painful. I wonder at what speed they are hit by that water?


----------



## tdw

*Salona to Hobart*

Hey Paulo,

Thought this my interest you. Our godson is crewing on a Salona 44 in this year's Sydney to Hobart.

Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2011.. The Yachts

Cheers

Andrew


----------



## St Anna

Thanks Paulo,
you come up with some amazing videos, all of which keep the racer within stoked.

Please keep finding them, very much appreciated. Your posts also express your experience in getting out and doing it, rather than just talking about it.

Cheers

DC

TDW,

Thanks to you also for same - [cant supplicate a mod too much] 
I'll keep an eye on the Salona.
regards

Actuall, if it were not for the spectators hanging around the Syd- Hob, I'd consider going in the cruising div. - how about a private cruisers race b/w a few of us - will take a lot of plotting/planning but how about a trip to Lord Howe or the Capricorn Group - Bris-Glad in April??


----------



## tdw

St Anna said:


> Thanks Paulo,
> you come up with some amazing videos, all of which keep the racer within stoked.
> 
> Please keep finding them, very much appreciated. Your posts also express your experience in getting out and doing it, rather than just talking about it.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> DC
> 
> TDW,
> 
> Thanks to you also for same - [cant supplicate a mod too much]
> I'll keep an eye on the Salona.
> regards
> 
> Actuall, if it were not for the spectators hanging around the Syd- Hob, I'd consider going in the cruising div. - how about a private cruisers race b/w a few of us - will take a lot of plotting/planning but how about a trip to Lord Howe or the Capricorn Group - Bris-Glad in April??


Supplicate baby supplicate .... 

I've looked longingly at the Cruising Div but in reality who wants to be stuck with the weather, while getting out of the harbour for the slow pokes must be horrid.

Otoh, we aim to be in Broken Bay post New Year and then if the weather gods smile head south, I'd like to think to Eden but one step at a time. Jervis, Batemans, Eden. Wild Oats may do Syd-Hob in two days but we'll be happy with Syd - Eden in two weeks.

Ref Lord Howe, how about we meet there ? Have to plan it fairly carefully cos out of Sydney into a Nor Easter would be a bit miserable but pick the tail end of the right southerly up the coast to Port Macquarie or Coffs then its a reach to LH rather than hard on the wind. For you though it would be plain sailing all the way unless you get snotted by a Tasman blow.

Nice thought. I need to do a decent offshore passage. LH is the obvious choice.

Does this all mean you are getting back on the water soon ?

Cheers

Andrew


----------



## PCP

Celebrating the Jeanneau 379 award as boat of the year for Cruising World Magazine, a new video, a nice one that shows that the 379 is a gorgeous sailboat and a fast one. The most beautiful boat among the 36/37ft cruisers (not considering performance cruisers):






This boat looks better than the Bavaria 36 the Hanse 385 and better than the Dufour 375 even if all of them are good looking boats, but in what regards the interior, well I find that it is not as good as the rest of the boat and I think it is a pity, no bad though, but just look at the Dufour 375 and that big galley:

Virtual Yacht Showing






And also a look at the Hanse 385:






And the Bavaria 36 that in my opinion is the nicest interior of all Bavaria cruising series, a lot better now that they have changed the wood color.


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Hey Andrews,
> 
> Nice to know and all the good luck to him and his crew. That boat entered also on the last year and had to retire with a very odd problem, something to do with a defective valve. Can you ask him what happened? I would be interested
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo, 
I'll ask him but he wasn't on her last year. 
Cheers
Andrew

ps - steering problem.


----------



## PCP

St Anna said:


> Thanks Paulo,
> you come up with some amazing videos, all of which keep the racer within stoked.
> 
> Please keep finding them, very much appreciated. Your posts also express your experience in getting out and doing it, rather than just talking about it.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> DC
> 
> ..


Thanks DC. Nice to know that you appreciate.

One more movie, this time dedicated to a great race and human adventure that nobody seems to have noticed around this forum, the Gobal Ocean race: A circumnavigation race on 40ft boats.






about the race:






Global Ocean Race 2011-12 : Home

Global Ocean Race 2011-12 : Home

Unfortunately only 6 boats are racing, more than on the last edition anyway, but this race has the potential for becoming the true race/adventure circumnavigation for non professional sailors or medium level professional sailors, the ones that could not dream to find a budget for the vendee Globe or Barcelona race, but that, for a small fraction of the price, can find a budget for this one.

This one is raced on 40class racers, a very affordable racing boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Back to the Paris boat show, I was very interested in seeing the new Grand Soleil 39, just to see if the boat does look as good as in the movies.

Yes, even better it is just a gorgeous boat and I know it is the kind of boat I like, I mean for solo sailing and to the type of sail I do and intend to do.

It is on the super quality of the finish and in all details that this boat really impresses. After having seen it, I even like that retro dish storage in the galley and contrary to what I was afraid those white cabinets look good. They have a silky white finish that exudes quality.

The table in the cockpit is the best I have ever saw (very little space lost) and the port hulls are just magnificent, specially if we consider that we are talking about a performance boat. They are under the cabinets, are double and long and at a place that match the height of the eyes when we are seated and they permit really an outside view.

This boat shows that it is possible to have a luxurious boat with a great interior and at the same time a performance boat. Really outstanding. Of course a boat like this cannot be cheap (it has a carbon structure to distribute all the loads) but even with that price I believe it is going to be a success.

It seems that the Bavaria ownership had only taken advantages and that the quality has not lowered, quite the contrary.

I could only find one thing that I really did not like: The stairs are to steep! But that is not a particularity of only this boat, the Xp 38 and surprisingly the Xp 44 have it also as many other boats. Anyway it is an important detail for me and I am happy that the ones on the Salona 38 are a lot better. That is not important if you have both hands free, but if you are holding something and coming down, that can be a nasty problem.

Grand Soleil 39 : le charme intégré


----------



## PCP

And a visit to the London boat show, a small one if compared with the one in Paris, not even the British major boat show but an interesting reportage by the Yachting World magazine. Some interesting boats, not rely new, but interesting nonetheless:


----------



## PCP

Back to the Paris boat show and to sexy boats, well the Grand Soleil 39 can pretend that title, but the little A27 is even sexier. Good what a beautiful boat, one capable of taken rationality out of you for sheer desire and sail pleasure, I mean if you are the kind of guy that prefer sailing to living in comfort



















This is a racer and a weekender but what a boat....and with the possibility of having a solo version with all controls at hand (look in the movie at that strange box with all controls there).



















The Archambault, the 31 and the 35 are favorite boats on the French Transat for amateurs, the Transquadra and they have learned with solo sailors all the tricks that were needed to solo sail a performance boat and have incorporated all in this boat.

This boat has also a version with two rudders and a lifting keel that will make it a very good all-round daysailer.

http://www.diamond-yachts.de/deliver.php?id=128

http://www.diamond-yachts.de/deliver.php?id=152

The boat I saw in Paris had not yet an interior (they had not time to finish the boat) but if it is a functional as on their other boats, it would be not only a great racer but a very fun weekender, a boat that will reward its owner with tons of sailing pleasure, I am sure

*Don't miss the movie:*

Take a look at the boat that is next to it. Its a Surprise, the boat that 30 years back was the first big success for Archambault. Both boats are about the same length and had the same program: racing and week-end cruising and the surprise was a very fast boat 30 years ago. The comparison shows the big evolution in design and particularly in hull design on the last 30 years.

A 27 : digne successeur du Surprise

...


----------



## PCP

I had already talked and posted movies about the Farlie 55, a very exclusive modern classic, I mean a truly classical boat with a more modern hull and a bulbed keel, a beautiful thing that make me fell like a peasant should feel near a beautiful princess

What a beautiful and untouchable sailboat except for that guy from Yachting world that pretending to make a test sail got a free ride with the beauty queen. Well, I would have liked to be in its place: What a lovely boat


----------



## St Anna

Fairlie is elegant. She would be fast as well. 
Stop it Paulo, no more.....


----------



## PCP

After a boat that almost nobody can have, a boat that anybody can have

The Elan 210 (that has several distributors in America) was also at the Paris boat show. The boat had been presented in January this year in Dusseldorf and since then a lot of boats have been sold and the boat has raised a lot of interest everywhere.

Voile and Voiliers made the best presentation of the boat I ever saw, a realy nice movie that shows about everything almost as if you were on the boat:

*Movie*

Elan 210 : comme un grand !

And the guys from Giornaledellavela have sailed it fast. Pity that I never saw images of this boat going with geenaker downwind. It should go really fast


----------



## PCP

St Anna said:


> Fairlie is elegant. She would be fast as well.
> Stop it Paulo, no more.....


 Ok, we cannot have always good looking boats

Well, this one it is a bit of a deception, at least in what regards the outside looks. It just have lost that adventurer look. Now it seems a cruiser like any other and not even a particularly nice one. The new Allures 39.9 the new aluminum French center boarder that replaces the Allures 40:










The interior is nice, open and with lots of light, a lot better than the old one:










The boat was presented at the Paris boat show.


----------



## PCP

If you Guys have not yet noticed it well deserve to pay attention to the attempt on the new World Record Navigation. They have 8 hours over Cammas, the one that owns the record but they are taking incredible risks running near 60º degrees South (58º), slalom Icebergs at 30/40K speed and Jumping on 33ft waves.

I am not exaggerating, they have beaten the speed record of the boat at 48K and the guy said the next second they were airborne over a 33ft wave

They have huge winds and big seas ahead (30h) and they talk about running without sail, only the mast!!!!! Its main problem is slow down the boat if they needed too. With 40K winds and over even only with the mast they will be doing over 20K and that can be too much for really heavy seas, not what you and I call heavy seas (on those they go over 30K) but on really bad seas, the ones where most sailors are considering a Mayday.

That is an incredible story that deserves to be followed by all that loves sail. They are out there, alot South of New Zealand sprinting to the more isolated place on earth, the big Southern Ocean on the way to the horn and they would be in deep trouble if they break the boat. Help would take a long way to arrive, maybe too long.

You can follow here:

Trophée Jules Verne 2011 - Cartographie et géolocalisation

Retrouvez toute l'actualité de l'univers Voile de Banque Populaire


----------



## PCP

Back to the Paris boat show and to one of the surprises, the XP 38. Yes I love the boat and I have said that already here but the interior on the photos and movies I had saw looked small and not very well designed. Well, it is not as big or as warm as the one from the Salona 38 but it is nice, very well done and cozy. Much more suitable for cruising than what I thought.










Pity that the XP 38 has only one version with 3 cabins because that is what make the saloon smaller than what it could have been, I mean the position of the head.

The head is small but will not be a problem unless you are really big. If you are you would have leg problems while seating at the toilet. The head it is also on the small side on the Salona 38 thee cabin, with more space for legs but less space for shower but it is much bigger on the Salona 2 cabin version and if you use the third cabin for storage, it makes a lot of sense to have a bigger head.

Another negative point is the stairs, really inclined, like the Grand Soleil 39 and a lot worse than on the Salona 38.

A very nice boat anyway, better for cruising than what I thought and a dam good and fast sailboat with a superior stability. A true bluewater boat.

Take a look at the presentation at the Paris boat show by "Voile and Voiliers"

*Movie:*

XP 38 : la performance par la puissance

*Movie:*

XP-38: Schnörkellos schnell segeln - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE

And another surprise, the Xp 44 interior, that on the photos looked a lot better than the one from Xp 38 it is not. It is just a slightly bigger Xp 38, less than what the size difference would let to suppose and suprinsingly its stair is as inclined as the one from the Xp 38.

The First 45, The Salona 44 or the Elan 45 has a lot more to offer in what regards interior space and comfort even if the interior from the X is, as always, very well finished and with good quality everywhere. Of course in what regards pure performance I believe that the Xp 44 would be a bit faster but nothing that will really matter in what regards performance cruising.

*Movie:*

Performance-Cruiser: Rückbesinnung auf den Sport - YACHT-TV*|*YACHT.DE


----------



## tdw

Paulo,

I'll have one of those Elan 210 for my birthday please.  What a fabulous thing for daysailing and a bit of club racing. Fabulous. We have a Beneteau of about the same size in our mooring field, I feel the same way about that. 

Allures 399 .... looks good. I'd have one of those in a shot but you would have to design a pretty impressive dodger. She'd be very wet with the wheels so far aft. I also look at the main sheet to boom position. Mid boom is one thing but man that is a long way forward, though perhaps its just the image. 

As for Banque Populaire V I am in two minds. Part of me freaks out at the idea of ever crazier atempts on these records while I acknowledge that some of us will always strive to achieve bigger and better no matter the risk. At least one must say that BPV looks astonishingly well prepared in contrast to the likes of the failed attempt a few years back by Tony Bullimore which had disaster written all over it from start to ignominous finish.


----------



## PCP

Some time ago was raced in Sweden another Tjorn Runt a 40 year's old race that joins all kinds of boats and all kinds of sailors. A sail celebration, a Nordic one. Have a look, it is a nice movie:


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I'll have one of those Elan 210 for my birthday please.  What a fabulous thing for daysailing and a bit of club racing. Fabulous. We have a Beneteau of about the same size in our mooring field, I feel the same way about that.
> 
> Allures 399 .... looks good. I'd have one of those in a shot but you would have to design a pretty impressive dodger. She'd be very wet with the wheels so far aft. I also look at the main sheet to boom position. Mid boom is one thing but man that is a long way forward, though perhaps its just the image.
> 
> As for Banque Populaire V I am in two minds. Part of me freaks out at the idea of ever crazier atempts on these records while I acknowledge that some of us will always strive to achieve bigger and better no matter the risk. At least one must say that BPV looks astonishingly well prepared in contrast to the likes of the failed attempt a few years back by Tony Bullimore which had disaster written all over it from start to ignominous finish.


Well, I will give you one of those on your birthday if you give me a A27 in mine

Regarding the Allures 39.9 I will prefer to say nothing without seeing the boat. I liked the old Allures 40 and this one don't seem nicer to me, except on the interior. I can be wrong, bit this is not a revolutionary boat as was the Allures 44 in its time. The innovation regarding the OVNI was that while the OVNI as an all aluminum boat, the Allures has an aluminum hull but all the rest is cored fiberglass and that make it not only lighter but also with a lower CG, giving them a better stability curve, specially in what concerns reserve stability and AVS.

some Allures from the "old" line, including the 40






And the new Allures 45, a very beautiful boat











Allures have being growing at a fantastic rhythm, 100% each year and some of its success is due to guys that cruise on remote places with them:






Regarding Banque Populaire, they only seem crazy. As in any serious racing there are always some risk evolved but his skipper is one of the more experienced sailors on the world. He knows very well what he is doing and all the crew as a huge respect for him:

Loïck Peyron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Great movie about the IWC Schaffhausen Speed Record Challenge:


----------



## PCP

Still the boats on the Paris boat show: I left almost to the end the one I find more sexy. Areal pleasure to the eyes. Believe me none of the photos or movies I will post will give you an idea how beautiful this boat is: The Black Pepper Code 0

It is a very subtle melange of classic lines with ultra modern lines. On what matters to sailing is all modern, all in carbon, big draft, swinging bulbed keel, narrow, a big B/D ratio and a very low weight: 1950kg for a 10m boat














































LOA : 9,95 m 
LWL : 9,30 m 
Beam : 2,70 m 
Mast heigh : 13,70 m 
Weight : 1 950 kg 
Ballast : 800 kg 
Draft : 0,70 m / 2,20 m 
Mainsail : 32 m² 
Jib : 18 m² 
Code 0 on a bowsprit : 40 m² 
Asymmetric spy on a bowsprit : 75 m²

At the Paris boat show:











First sailing appearance at the "VOILES DE SAINT TROPEZ"

Comments from the crew: We were surprised and surprised many boats. We did not know that this little boat could do 17K.











Is this not a cracking little boat? If I didn't like so much to cruise and I just sailed around my corner I would want one of these. They can even put you a real head on the boat if you want too.

No, don't ask me about the price. You should know that really beautiful things are priceless  But if you really want to know I guess that this ine would cost a bit less than the Salona 38....but not much.

...


----------



## G1000

Code 0 is just... from dreamland back to earth take a look at it's birth gallery: Day Boat - Code 0


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## PCP

The J 105 is such a great boat that the one to replace it would have to be a really great boat. Hardd job

Look at this one:






With 23K a 28 k wind: Boat speed 12 a 16 kn. max. 17.3 kn

Well it seems they have done it, I mean a better boat. In Paris I had a look at the J 111: Impressive. It looks a bit better everywhere: A more modern hull design, a very nice looking boat with a great cockpit set up and a better interior.

The interior of the J 111 is miles away from the one from the Xp38 and points decidedly for racing but you could cruise one in a spartan way. Not much different from a Pogo 10.50 even if the Pogo is pointing decidedly to cruising.

Comparing with a Pogo 10.50 interior the Pogo has more storage, a better galley with a bigger fridge,the head in a better place and has a bigger interior.

No doubt that the Pogo 10.50 has a better interior, much more adapted to cruising but the J111 has a much better interior comparing with the j 105. Pity that they had maintained the head in that place, I mean inside the front cabin, like on the J 105. I don't understand why. The Pogo solution, that is common to many fast racers looks a lot better: Instead of having two cabins on the stern, it has only a bigger one and on the other side a head, communicating with the storage space.

But in what regarding sailing the opinions of all that had sailed it and their enthusiasm about the boat does not leave any doubt: That's a great sailingboat and siting on the cockpit, even on a boat show, you really dream to get it on the water and sail away


----------



## PCP

Some of you were complaining on other thread that there are no inexpensive new little cruisers on the market and that all the major brands were doing only big boats. That's true in what regards to almost all with the exception of Elan.

The big money is on big boats and all are pointing to it. But on Europe we have lots of new interesting and very inexpensive boats coming in the market, not from big boat companies but from small firms that are growing fast, mostly from Poland were the French and German big mass producers have been building a substantial part of their boats. They have learned the know how and and are starting producing their own boats. Well, it's good not to forget that Delphia is a Polish firm and they have been producing good boats for decades.

All this talk to present you another inexpensive Polish boat, the Mariner 20:























































I like it. It seems very well designed it comes with a very basic equipment that will probably will give it a very low price and that I am sure can be upgraded, but the essentials are there: A nice hull with a nice rig and a good looking interior. The boat seems particularly interesting in its fixed bulb that has a bulbed ballast of 290kg (with more 100kg of inside ballast)at 1.42 draft. That will make it probably a relatively stiff boat considering that weights only 1050 kg and has a considerable beam (2.45m).






If you are really interested you can read the teat on the German Magazine "Yacht" and in some time you can download the test (2€).

The designer is the Polish Wojciech Spisak that was a huge experience in building small cruisers:

Konstrukcje Wojciecha Spisaka

I guess that now that the Euro is going down regarding to the dollar it would probably be good business to import this boat considering that they have a good looking and modern 24ft with a full head:






and are developing a big sister that it would probably be even more interesting, a very nice looking 31ft.

All these boats look good and don't resemble to those other fat little boats that come also from Polland. Have a look at the designs for the 31ft:





































They say about the 31ft boat:

*MARINER 31 
two varieties of comfort

Our flagship model, depending on equipment and furnishing, is either a big, comfortable inland sailboat or a typical sea yacht. The inland version is equipped with a centerboard and an internal bottom balast, a tiller and an engine fixed on transom. Of course on request we can change the tiller to a steering wheel and fix a Diesel sterndrive. The next step can be changing the centerboard and the balast to a keel which transforms the boat into a sea yacht.*

...


----------



## PCP

On these winter days I like to see good sailing movies. It is not like sailing, not even close but makes me dream about it and this movie is pretty good:

The sailing season of a racing Swedish team: Blur

First images (and great photos) on a J 109, the last ones on a J111 that is going to be probably their next boat. Enjoy (see it in 720HD):


----------



## PCP

Since we are talking about Polish small cruising boat, there is another coming and this one imported to US, the Delphia 31. from the very first images and designs it seems to be a very nice boat, designed by Andrzej Skrzat.

The version with deep keel will be certified by RCD as A category (offshore boat) and that means that for such a small boat, that it has to be well designed.

The boat will be offered with a deep keel and a draft of 1.85 and a swing keel with a variable draft, from 0.45 to 1.65. The Swinging keel does not seem to have a great impact on the interior.

Another interesting characteristic, common to some Delphia is the possibility of an optional mast lowering kit.

The Delphia is normally offered at a very good price for its quality.
































































They say about the boat:

*The new Delphia 31 is designed to be a well-mannered craft, ideal for families seeking adventure on the water. From stem to stern, it is built to be functional, solid and very reliable in harsh weather conditions.

Even during long voyages, the D31 guarantees its occupants a sense of high comfort and safety. The self-draining cockpit with two lockers, the specifically designed anti-slip surface on the cockpit floor, the self-tailing winch and roller furling jib are just a few of the wealth of features to ensure the ultimate sailing experience that a craft in its class may offer.

Inside, the D31 is a perfect combination of space and ergonomics. The generously sized cockpit boasts teak laid seats and a bathing platform offering easy access to the water. The all-new interior with sumptuous sofas offers sleeping accommodation for up to six adults while panoramic windows flood the cabin with light.

Apart from the exquisite mahogany finish, standard features include a cooker, fridge, shower room and a 150-litre fresh water tank. Below decks there is a 100-litre diesel tank to fuel the 18-horsepower Volvo Penta engine.

The D31 is available with a cast iron keel, recommended for blue water sailing or a swing-keel available on request. Optional extras also include a furling mainsail and a mast lowering kit.*

Technical data

Length:	9.78 m
Beam:	3.40 m
Total draft:	1.85 m
Weight:	6130 kg
Ballast:	1650 kg
Mainsail:	23.90m2
Gennaker:	90m2
Engine:	30 HP
Fuel tank:	120 l
Water tank:	210 l
Category:	A/ 6 pers.
Designer:	Andrzej Skrzat

Let me make a comment about this:* "ideal for families seeking adventure on the water. From stem to stern, it is built to be functional, solid and very reliable in harsh weather conditions"*

This boat has an unusually high weight and ballast for a 31 ft. If well designed, and Andrzej Skrzat is a good and very experienced designer, that weight means a very strong boat and that ballast on the end of a deep bulbed keel (with that weight) will mean an unusual high righting moment curve for a 31ft. This is probably going to be a very seaworthy boat for its size.

....


----------



## PCP

I found out a information that I was looking for some time now: a great explanation about the different types or A sails (geenakers on furlers), the angles and winds they are appropriated too. I have asked in some small lofts but the explanations were always confusing and contradictory.










These are the sails that are used by solo sailors. I had a A0 I knew the angles and the wind speed that it could take (not much) and I wanted a good overall sail capable of sailing with more wind and going more downwind. Well, know I know, it is a A2.

I hope this can be useful to some.

The loft is OneSail, a Slovenian good loft that is growing fast and makes some great performance sails at a very good price. I knew about them because Salona uses their sails. I have tried their top of the range sail for cruisers and I liked it very much, the Vektor Dyneema series.

OneSails Sailmakers - The Next Generation of Sails - Home Page

OneSails Sailmakers - The Next Generation of Sails


----------



## blt2ski

Announcing SW's 2012 BOTY Winners | Sailing World

Some more garbage from the local SBOTY rags, ie Sailing World. I can not argue with 3 of the 4, but that freaking C&C 121 with a new deck plan.....as a T4000.......egads......anyway, back to house work. Have my one of two weekends off tween now and mid feb, then one off until late march as the winters of snow ski instruction on weekends have now hit! 33 season thank you very much of this!

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Announcing SW's 2012 BOTY Winners | Sailing World
> 
> *Some more garbage from the local SBOTY rags,* ie Sailing World. ... freaking C&C 121 with a new deck plan.....as a T4000.......egads...
> 
> Marty


Very funny a Tartan 4000 being chosen as *PERFORMANCE cruiser* of the Year

It is funny because a Jeanneau 409 *THAT IS NOT A PERFORMANCE CRUISER *would easily smoke the Tartan 4000, I mean in its standard version. In its performance version (that does not make it a performance cruiser, only a fast cruiser) the Jeanneau would turn circles around the *PERFORMANCE Tartan 400*.

Some ratios between the two boats:

SA/D (the bigger the faster) - Tartan 4000 - 19.6....... Jeanneau 409 - 20.79 or 24.79.

D/L ratio(the smaller the faster) - Tartan 4000 - 181.5.......Jeanneau 409 - 120.8

And it is not only the Jeanneau 409, if I posted the numbers from the Dufour 405 (another cruiser) they would be very similar to the ones from Jeanneau. I guess that even the new Benetau Oceanis 41 is faster than the Tartan.

Only in what regards B/D the Tartan 400 has a slightly higher ratio, 0.326 to 0,303 but the Tartan keel is much wider and have less proportion of the ballast on the bulb.

Note that I am not saying that the Tartan 4000 is a bad boat neither I am saying that it is better or worse than the Jeanneau, only saying IT IS NOT A PERFORMANCE CRUISER.

If that boat is a performance cruiser what do you call to real performance cruisers like the Salona 41, The XP 38 or the Grand Soleil 39?

The Tartan 4000 is a luxury cruiser and should be compared with boats like the XC 42, the Halberg Rassy 372 (that was on the contest), boats that cost aproximatedly the same price and that are not maximized to performance while cruisers.


----------



## opc11

*Thanks Paolo*

Hi Paulo,

Just wanted to say thanks for all the education. I was raised in the Newport, RI area and am now land locked in the desert dreaming of sailing into the sunset. I've found this thread incredibly addictive and recently finished reading all of it. I NEED MORE! 

I was wondering if you'd be interested in starting a separate thread about YOUR new boat and specifically the customizations you requested. I think your input, thoughts, musings and specifications would be incredibly helpful to those of us who don't have the cruising experience sufficient to know what we do or don't like (YET  ).

..anyway, just a suggestion.

To all the others who have contributed so much, thanks to you too!

Regards,


----------



## PCP

opc11 said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Just wanted to say thanks for all the education. I was raised in the Newport, RI area and am now land locked in the desert dreaming of sailing into the sunset. I've found this thread incredibly addictive and recently finished reading all of it. I NEED MORE!
> 
> I was wondering if you'd be interested in starting a separate thread about YOUR new boat and specifically the customizations you requested. I think your input, thoughts, musings and specifications would be incredibly helpful to those of us who don't have the cruising experience sufficient to know what we do or don't like (YET  ).
> 
> ..anyway, just a suggestion.
> 
> To all the others who have contributed so much, thanks to you too!
> 
> Regards,


Welcome to the thread, and glad to know that you have find it useful

But Opc, my boat is my personal choice in what regards my needs according with my budget. May not be yours and yours can be different from another sailor. Boats are always compromises and there is no right boat for everybody.

On this thread we have many different types of boats even if we consider only cruising boats. There is no right or wrong, most of them are great boats, and to the right sailor many would be the perfect boat...I mean for each different sailor

I don't think that makes any sense to treat my choice differently than the one that make Eric or Anders. They are all perfect boats for each of us

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

On the Paris boat show I had seen the most strange sailing boat I ever saw and I have seen some strange boats.

They have there the Mirabaud LX










Take a better look:


----------



## PCP

So this strange spider works with foils. We all no Moth sailboats that have adopted foils, but the boat was not conceived initially as a foiler and I remember that 6 years ago sailors still considered that has a freak thing, a lonely guy and an acrobat that was doing crazy things in a boat.

Not anymore pretty much all Moth now use foils and thy race the boats in that configuration and they have gone farther and joined a wing to the concept:






But of course, you cannot take a pas sager on that thing and even to sail it you have not only to be a good sailor but an athlete and even so that demands a lot of training before be able to fly the thing properly. We can see here the body movement ant the delicate balance that is needed:











However in what regards things that can in the future be applied to cruising or even to pleasure sailing, I mean without the need for you to be a top racing sailor,the application of foils to multihulls seems a lot more promising. We all now the Hydroptere, the French trimaran that has the world record sailing speed and that can fly even with the sea not properly flat











But there are other less known interesting experiences some of them developed by talented young designers, like this very interesting one one:










Even big companies like Hobbie cat are developing the concept and this is a very interesting sail machine:






Regarding this concept that seems to work very well I have only one doubt. How the heel they reef the sails if the wind is suddenly too much?

Anyway these concepts are a lot more interesting in what concerns pleasure sailing not only because they are much easier to sail and can even carry passengers as also when the boat "falls" and start sailing as a regular boat, you don't crash like in a Moth:


----------



## PCP

Well, and to the ones, like me, that are dreaming with summer cruises nothing better than a good cruising movie like this one:






The boat is a great bluewater boat, the Sabre 456, still on the line of Sabre yachts. The boat is basically the old 452 (1998) with some modifications. The 452 is a Jim Taylor design and he says about the boat:

*The S-452 was marketed as a 'blue water' cruiser, and ample storage capacity and cruising amenities were a high priority.*

Here you have a BWS review:

BLUE WATER SAILING

It is still a great (and expensive) sailboat but the hull and keel design shows clearly its age and it is a pity because that is a nice looking boat with a very good and beautifull classic interior (please, can someone take away those ugly rugs?) :


----------



## PCP

Six or seven years ago , in another forum, on a thread about tendencies in design regarding future hull shapes of cruising boats, I said that I believed that cruising boats were gonna be more beamy and with the beam carried aft. I was so flamed that i give up to post on that forum but I was pretty sure that I was right. Now the biggest mass production boat builder has all its cruising series (Sense and Oceanis) designed that way.

The question is why? Well today's cruising boats and even more in the future are solo sailed or sailed by a couple and most of the time the help the wife gives is very limited. Given this picture it seemed obvious to me that the hull shape more indicated for short crew sailing was the shape developed for solo racing: beamy boats with the beam carried aft.

What are the advantages: Boats with a superior stability given by its huge form stability and boats that can be designed to have a good performance without heeling much and are incredible stable an easy in downwind sailing that it is much of the sailing cruisers do (upwind most just turn the engine on). The performance downwind is also better in what regards performance. They provide also for more interior space and more space on the cockpit.

The disadvantages are: More wet surface (they need more sail area to compensate, sail that they can carry because they have more stability), less pointing ability and worse performance upwind, specially with waves (more wave drag), more slamming upwind in bad weather.

Comparing advantages and disadvantages it is (and was) obvious to me that for the big majority of cruisers the advantages were much bigger than the disadvantages and that stability, sailing at good speed with a small angle of heel, interior and cockpit space are probably the things that have more importance for most cruisers.

So, Benetau that always had his boats designed by the most advanced NA (that design race boats and cruising boats) have understood this quickly and have been pointing in this direction from some years now.

One of the best boats in the Oceanis line and one that has been there more years without being replaced (because it was advanced for its time and continues to sell well) is the Oceanis 37 that was this characteristics.

Well, the new Oceanis 41 is designed exactly by the same NAs, Finot/Conq and as a kind or reward by the excellent design and market success of the 37, Benetau has done something very rare: This time they did not give them any directions regarding the boat they wanted. Just the best they can do regarding a 40ft cruising boat that would appeal to the majority of the market.

The result was the 41 (and the 45 that was also designed by them).

When I saw the first drawings I didn't like very much the shape of the boat, the arch and specially the interior that looked unappealing and regarding sailing, after having read the tests sails made to the Sense Series I was not very convinced. Not that the Sense sail badly, but for what the testers said it was a kind of sparkles performance. Yes the sailed well, but did not point high and the sailing feeling were kind of indifferent, meaning nobody is going to buy a Sense by its sailing performance or the pleasure it gives at the wheel. at least this was the feeling I got from what they have said.

The funny thing is that they have said exactly that on the boat test, I mean they were not expecting much and they have said that they where surprised by the boat. The boat was tested by Voile and Voiliers and by Voile magazine and on both tests they were convinced and think this is going to be a great sailboat and a big market success. The best test was the one from Voile magazine, a 100Nm test and they measured these speeds:

Close to the wind with 6K wind - 4.9K speed....with 7.5K wind - 6.6K speed

with 18/20K wind at 140º - 9.5K speed.

These is a very good performance for a cruiser and show all the expertise of Finot/Conq designing this kind of hulls. They have a huge experience in designing solo racing solo boats: Minis, Class 40 and Open60.

Voile and Voiliers on their boat test also commented on how well the boat sailed and particularly in what regards the negative characteristics of this kind of hull that were non apparent in sailing.

On both test they said that the sensation at the wheel was good and particularly on the one where they sailed 100Nm, they said that they had fun at the wheel.

They had made only a really negative remark in what regards the dificulty to put all the sail in the lazy bag and zipe it. It seems that the boom is very high. That is a problem for the ones that would not chose in mast furling. Benetau had said to them that on the next boats to come the boom was going to be lowered 20 cms to make easier to work on the mainsail.
































































I saw the boat on the Paris boat show and I was surprised. The boat looks a lot better than what the bad designs that I had saw make me believe and the interior is also a lot better. I guess that those photos with a dark interior don't help in what regards to feel the space. However I still think it is rather dumb from Benetau to insist in showing the boat in dark mahogany when they have other options in ligther wood that makes the boat look a lot better.

The guys from Voile and Voiliers criticized heavily the position of the mast on the boat interior (not the mast but the compression post). I don't think that way. Like on the Oceanis 37 the mast is more aft than what is usual for giving the boat a perfect balance between the front sail and the main and I find that it gives a very good holding point and is integrated on the interior decoration. Like the one on the 37 it is mirrored all around and that helps to its integration.

The boat has the less inclined steps, from the cockpit to the interior, that I ever saw in a sailboat, an incredibly good access.

The galley is huge for a 40ft, the size of the 2 fridge are remarkable (130L and 85L) and the saloon is nice and cozy with a good outside view. For charter I would say that the saloon table is small, but on a 40ft most of the time there are not more than 4 or 5 and for that number it is fine.

The head is good with a big separated shower and even if the 2 head version is chosen, the one on the front cabin is not small because the front cabin is really big. On this boat you don't need the 2 cabin version because the galley is already big enough and there is enough storage space on the outside. Quite rare on a 40ft boat, where on most boats I would chose a 2 cabin boat to have a bigger head or/and a bigger galley. No need for that on this boat and I bet that the 2 cabin version will not sell.

But the best part of this boat is the cockpit that seems to belong to a 45ft boat. It is HUGE and the extension that gives the swimming platform is incredible. A private beach

The cockpit table is huge (I guess they have considered that while cruising most cruisers are going to use this one) but because the cockpit is so large does not clutter the space and serve as an adequate support for the feet while sailing.

The quality of the interior is the one that we all know from Beneteau, perhaps a bit worse than Jeanneau or Dufour, but globally good for the price of the boat.

I bet that some of you are thinking: well he have said so nice things about the Jeanneau 409 and now he is impressed with this one! after all this one is better or worse than the Jeanneau, what would be the one he you would chose?

Well, I would chose a Salona 41 but I am quite sure that the vast majority of sailors would chose a Jeanneau 409 or an Oceanis 41. As I have said many times, all boats are compromises and my preferences are not main stream in what regards the market (and that does not make them better, just different and mine).

If I had to choose between the two I would chose the performance version of the Jeanneau 409 (much more expensive than a Oceanis 41) but that's because I don't mind to sail with more heel and I make a lot of upwind sailing, even when the sea is rough (I only stop when everybody is seasick and complaining).

One thing cannot be denied: The Oceanis offer a much bigger cockpit and an incredible swim platform. It offers also a much American huge dodger. Well I was going to write sparywood, but this one is so big that can only be a dodger It is also very rigid because the arch integrates the structure. Regarding the Arch I have to say that you don't feel its presence on the cockpit and it is certainly very resistant (on one of the tests a big guy was on top of it just for putting the sail in the bag and I could not see any flexing).

The system to regulate the main is not certainly as good as the big traveler on the jeanneau 409 but nobody was complaining on those test sails, so the system should work reasonably well.

I guess that these are just two unusually good and well designed sailboats, sailboats that would have been a dream 10 years ago and that represent the best of modern design on this category.























































*Movie:*

http://cdn.streamlike.com/js/uc3/ev...5&height=363&swfskin=8&colorskin=361&plugin=5


----------



## CKDexterHaven

PCP said:


> If you Guys have not yet noticed it well deserve to pay attention to the attempt on the new World Record Navigation. They have 8 hours over Cammas, the one that owns the record but they are taking incredible risks running near 60º degrees South (58º), slalom Icebergs at 30/40K speed and Jumping on 33ft waves.
> 
> I am not exaggerating, they have beaten the speed record of the boat at 48K and the guy said the next second they were airborne over a 33ft wave
> 
> They have huge winds and big seas ahead (30h) and they talk about running without sail, only the mast!!!!! Its main problem is slow down the boat if they needed too. With 40K winds and over even only with the mast they will be doing over 20K and that can be too much for really heavy seas, not what you and I call heavy seas (on those they go over 30K) but on really bad seas, the ones where most sailors are considering a Mayday.
> 
> That is an incredible story that deserves to be followed by all that loves sail. They are out there, alot South of New Zealand sprinting to the more isolated place on earth, the big Southern Ocean on the way to the horn and they would be in deep trouble if they break the boat. Help would take a long way to arrive, maybe too long.
> 
> You can follow here:
> 
> Trophée Jules Verne 2011 - Cartographie et géolocalisation
> 
> Retrouvez toute l'actualité de l'univers Voile de Banque Populaire


I'm fascinated by this boat and this attempt. It's something truly amazing. I watch the videos of this boat doing 30+ knots effortlessly over and over and over again. This one is my favorite. See if you can tell why 

Vidéo - Maxi Banque Populaire V - Jour 3 - Au reaching rencontre avec un catamaran ! - YouTube

Hats off to Loïck and his crew.


----------



## BCC1

PCP said:


> Six or seven years ago , in another forum, on a thread about tendencies in design regarding future hull shapes of cruising boats, I said that I believed that cruising boats were gonna be more beamy and with the beam carried aft. I was so flamed that i give up to post on that forum but I was pretty sure that I was right. Now the biggest mass production boat builder has all its cruising series (Sense and Oceanis) designed that way.
> 
> The question is why? Well today's cruising boats and even more in the future are solo sailed or sailed by a couple and most of the time the help the wife gives is very limited. Given this picture it seemed obvious to me that the hull shape more indicated for short crew sailing was the shape developed for solo racing: beamy boats with the beam carried aft.
> 
> What are the advantages: Boats with a superior stability given by its huge form stability and boats that can be designed to have a good performance without heeling much and are incredible stable an easy in downwind sailing that it is much of the sailing cruisers do (upwind most just turn the engine on). The performance downwind is also better in what regards performance. They provide also for more interior space and more space on the cockpit.
> 
> The disadvantages are: More wet surface (they need more sail area to compensate, sail that they can carry because they have more stability), less pointing ability and worse performance upwind, specially with waves (more wave drag), more slamming upwind in bad weather.
> 
> Comparing advantages and disadvantages it is (and was) obvious to me that for the big majority of cruisers the advantages were much bigger than the disadvantages and that stability, sailing at good speed with a small angle of heel, interior and cockpit space are probably the things that have more importance for most cruisers.
> 
> So, Benetau that always had his boats designed by the most advanced NA (that design race boats and cruising boats) have understood this quickly and have been pointing in this direction from some years now.
> 
> One of the best boats in the Oceanis line and one that has been there more years without being replaced (because it was advanced for its time and continues to sell well) is the Oceanis 37 that was this characteristics.
> 
> Well, the new Oceanis 41 is designed exactly by the same NAs, Finot/Conq and as a kind or reward by the excellent design and market success of the 37, Benetau has done something very rare: This time they did not give them any directions regarding the boat they wanted. Just the best they can do regarding a 40ft cruising boat that would appeal to the majority of the market.
> 
> The result was the 41 (and the 45 that was also designed by them).
> 
> When I saw the first drawings I didn't like very much the shape of the boat, the arch and specially the interior that looked unappealing and regarding sailing, after having read the tests sails made to the Sense Series I was not very convinced. Not that the Sense sail badly, but for what the testers said it was a kind of sparkles performance. Yes the sailed well, but did not point high and the sailing feeling were kind of indifferent, meaning nobody is going to buy a Sense by its sailing performance or the pleasure it gives at the wheel. at least this was the feeling I got from what they have said.
> 
> The funny thing is that they have said exactly that on the boat test, I mean they were not expecting much and they have said that they where surprised by the boat. The boat was tested by Voile and Voiliers and by Voile magazine and on both tests they were convinced and think this is going to be a great sailboat and a big market success. The best test was the one from Voile magazine, a 100Nm test and they measured these speeds:
> 
> Close to the wind with 6K wind - 4.9K speed....with 7.5K wind - 6.6K speed
> 
> with 18/20K wind at 140º - 9.5K speed.
> 
> These is a very good performance for a cruiser and show all the expertise of Finot/Conq designing this kind of hulls. They have a huge experience in designing solo racing solo boats: Minis, Class 40 and Open60.
> 
> Voile and Voiliers on their boat test also commented on how well the boat sailed and particularly in what regards the negative characteristics of this kind of hull that were non apparent in sailing.
> 
> On both test they said that the sensation at the wheel was good and particularly on the one where they sailed 100Nm, they said that they had fun at the wheel.
> 
> They had made only a really negative remark in what regards the dificulty to put all the sail in the lazy bag and zipe it. It seems that the boom is very high. That is a problem for the ones that would not chose in mast furling. Benetau had said to them that on the next boats to come the boom was going to be lowered 20 cms to make easier to work on the mainsail.
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> I saw the boat on the Paris boat show and I was surprised. The boat looks a lot better than what the bad designs that I had saw make me believe and the interior is also a lot better. I guess that those photos with a dark interior don't help in what regards to feel the space. However I still think it is rather dumb from Benetau to insist in showing the boat in dark mahogany when they have other options in ligther wood that makes the boat look a lot better.
> 
> The guys from Voile and Voiliers criticized heavily the position of the mast on the boat interior (not the mast but the compression post). I don't think that way. Like on the Oceanis 37 the mast is more aft than what is usual for giving the boat a perfect balance between the front sail and the main and I find that it gives a very good holding point and is integrated on the interior decoration. Like the one on the 37 it is mirrored all around and that helps to its integration.
> 
> The boat has the less inclined steps, from the cockpit to the interior, that I ever saw in a sailboat, an incredibly good access.
> 
> The galley is huge for a 40ft, the size of the 2 fridge are remarkable (130L and 85L) and the saloon is nice and cozy with a good outside view. For charter I would say that the saloon table is small, but on a 40ft most of the time there are not more than 4 or 5 and for that number it is fine.
> 
> The head is good with a big separated shower and even if the 2 head version is chosen, the one on the front cabin is not small because the front cabin is really big. On this boat you don't need the 2 cabin version because the galley is already big enough and there is enough storage space on the outside. Quite rare on a 40ft boat, where on most boats I would chose a 2 cabin boat to have a bigger head or/and a bigger galley. No need for that on this boat and I bet that the 2 cabin version will not sell.
> 
> But the best part of this boat is the cockpit that seems to belong to a 45ft boat. It is HUGE and the extension that gives the swimming platform is incredible. A private beach
> 
> The cockpit table is huge (I guess they have considered that while cruising most cruisers are going to use this one) but because the cockpit is so large does not clutter the space and serve as an adequate support for the feet while sailing.
> 
> The quality of the interior is the one that we all know from Beneteau, perhaps a bit worse than Jeanneau or Dufour, but globally good for the price of the boat.
> 
> I bet that some of you are thinking: well he have said so nice things about the Jeanneau 409 and now he is impressed with this one! after all this one is better or worse than the Jeanneau, what would be the one he you would chose?
> 
> Well, I would chose a Salona 41 but I am quite sure that the vast majority of sailors would chose a Jeanneau 409 or an Oceanis 41. As I have said many times, all boats are compromises and my preferences are not main stream in what regards the market (and that does not make them better, just different and mine).
> 
> If I had to choose between the two I would chose the performance version of the Jeanneau 409 (much more expensive than a Oceanis 41) but that's because I don't mind to sail with more heel and I make a lot of upwind sailing, even when the sea is rough (I only stop when everybody is seasick and complaining).
> 
> One thing cannot be denied: The Oceanis offer a much bigger cockpit and an incredible swim platform. It offers also a much American huge dodger. Well I was going to write sparywood, but this one is so big that can only be a dodger It is also very rigid because the arch integrates the structure. Regarding the Arch I have to say that you don't feel its presence on the cockpit and it is certainly very resistant (on one of the tests a big guy was on top of it just for putting the sail in the bag and I could not see any flexing).
> 
> The system to regulate the main is not certainly as good as the big traveler on the jeanneau 409 but nobody was complaining on those test sails, so the system should work reasonably well.
> 
> I guess that these are just two unusually good and well designed sailboats, sailboats that would have been a dream 10 years ago and that represent the best of modern design


Thanks so much for this report. I'll be talking to my Beneteau dealer to see if we can agree numbers. Hope so!

BCC


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## PCP

I guess that we all know the Delphia 40, the sailingboat that has made the reputation of Delphia. The boat is around for a long time and is now in its 3th remake, I mean, the same hull and new interiors and slightly different and more modern cabin tops.

They offer an incredible number of different layouts and several keel configurations. On the 2 cabin configuration the boat is well adapted for living aboard, with lot's of storage and a huge galley.

The boat is solid and well built, offers a good B/D ratio, the interior is of average quality (I would say similar to Beneteau) and offers a good price/quality ratio, however that hull is a bit dated and I bet that it will not take long for an entirely new boat.





































Virtual Tour Created By Easypano

So, it is not a new boat, it has a dated hull, why the hell I am posting about it?

Because there are a guy that is *circumnavigating SOLO AND NON STOP* in one and it is not a top sailor or a racer, just a middle aged sailor that after having crossed the Atlantic (both ways) in his Delphia liked the sensation and wanted more. Well, this is certainly more

Now he is down there, south of Australia were the winds are strong and the waves are big making his way through the big Pacific Ocean. If you want to follow its voyage you can do it here:

Lokalizacja | Around The World Delphia Project

he has a site with some parts in English:

Around The World Delphia Project


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## PCP

CKDexterHaven said:


> I'm fascinated by this boat and this attempt. It's something truly amazing. I watch the videos of this boat doing 30+ knots effortlessly over and over and over again. This one is my favorite. See if you can tell why
> ...
> Hats off to Loïck and his crew.


Yes that's a great adventure and very difficult because the previous record established by the trimaran Groupama with Frank Cammas as skipper was an incredible performance.

They are having problems with icebergs and growlers:

* !9/12 Hi all

Hope you guys are all well...Sorry for last few garbled days of updates, am going to write this sitting down, rather than in my bunk, where have been falling asleep at the keyboard!

Since the encounter with the amazing ice display of The remnants of berg B15J we have been skirting the Northern edge of the known ice zone. Firstly in almost no wind, and now tacking upwind in 15 knots of wind.

Our watch was on deck through the entire night - at least the 4 hours of it that we have here, and we were paying close attention to the radar. We were looking at various echos on the radar, rain clouds, fog banks, waves, and distinguishing them from possible icebergs, when an echo on the screen suddenly appeared that was unmistakably solid South of Cape Leewin!
Ciao, am off to my bunk, cannot stay awake any longer!
Brian

.....Late this afternoon we passed about 4 miles to leeward of one iceberg, and saw ten growlers, between 5 and 1m high. The iceberg we saw from 12 miles out on the radar, (before we saw it visually), but the growlers did not show up at all well on radar.

Fortunately the water temp is 8 or 9C, so the growlers should not get too far from the mother berg before melting.

It's night now, so a careful lookout for us. Time to go on deck:.

Brian*

Press Releases Maxi Trimaran Banque Populaire V

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

If you have a recent boat with a Selden mast pay attention:

Selden had made a recall on the forestay fittings of some of their masts (2004-2008). The piece has the reference - 517-914. Here is the piece photo and all information:

Seldén Mast AB

The failures can happen on long distance cruising using only the genoa and Cracks are along the weld on the underside part of the fitting and will not be visible.

Many boats affected, between them: Arcona 460, Bavaria 46, Dehler 47, Elan Impression, Finngulf 44, Hallberg Rassy 40, Maxi 1300, Najad 460, 400,405,440, Omega 46, Salona 45, Sweden Yachts 42 and 45, Southerly 42, Van de Stadt 44, and Etap 46.


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## PCP

Tartan 4000, boat of the year for Cruising world Magazine, boat of the year for sailing world magazine...I guess that I have to make a post about it.

Let me tell you that among the production American boats Tartan are the ones that I like most. I like the old 4100 and its mix of classicism and modernity.

I cannot say that I like the 4000 very much. They have utilized a some years old hull, the one from c&c 121, a good hull that is not yet dated, a modern hull, a beamy hull that marks a sharp contrast with the traditional hull of the previous model....and then, instead of having a modern design for a modern hull they treated the overall outside design in a very classical way.

In my opinion it is not a match, I mean the modern wide hull and the retro classical line. I find the previous model much more elegant and comfortable in its lines: Traditional hull, classical line.



















The cockpit looks good and functional but the transom seems anachronistic with a very small opening and without a bath platform. That could be justified in a classic boat with a classic hull, but on that large and modern stern that little gate seems out of proportion.

The interior is very nice in a traditional way but the layout only permits a two cabin version while on other boats of this size we can find a similar sized galley and three cabins. But the worse is the lack of outside views from the saloon. I really think that is going to be a very negative point in what concerns sales. If you target the small niche of classical boats, a classical hull without hull ports can make sense, but when the target is the main market it makes no sense at all.










Another strange thing is the carbon mast. I am all in favor for them in performance boats but notwithstanding Sailing world choice as this boat as performance sailboat of the year, this boat is not a performance sailboat and that mast looks out of place in a 40ft boat that displaces around 9T (and makes it unnecessarily more expensive).

The keel, more than the hull looks dated and it is in flagrant contradiction with the Carbon mast. It is too wide and has much weight on the support and not as much as it should have in the bulb if instead of an all lead keel it had a steel narrower and thinner support and a lead bulb.










Some good choices, some odd choices makes this boat an unbalanced one and is difficult to understand how it got so many prizes. I hope I am wrong and this boat can be a sales success. Ultimately it is the public that decides what is a good boat and a bad boat and I would hate to see Tartan disappear and this boat is very much the last opportunity to get it right for Tartan.


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## PCP

Hey Andrews, if you liked the Elan 210 you are going to like this one, it is the same concept but on a North European view, the Campus 7.4, a sweet boat that can even have a real head. The boat is made by Fabola that is the company that make the Fabola Diva 35, 36 and 38, beautiful boats that were already posted here.

































It is a dam fast little boat, a boat that is a lot of fun to sail and has a simple but beautiful interior:











And a test comparison with the Elan 210:






The boat weights 1 250Kg, has a ballasted swing keel with 300kg and is easily trailerable.

Technical data Fabola Campus 7.4

LOA (length body) 7.45 m
Total length 7.26 m
Width 2.59 m
Draft 0.30 to 1.75 m
Weight 1.25 t
Ballast-/anteil 300 kg/25%
Sail Area 27.8 to 30.5 sqm

Price starts at € 27 350and can go till 45,000 €, in this case including trailer (prices include German VAT). Not cheap, but this a Swedish boat

Nice test on the German Magazine Yacht and a comparative test with the Elan 210 on the Norwegian magazine Seilas.


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## PCP

Last edition of the Yacht sailing magazine comes with a fantastic story:

The worse documented nightmare in a boat. Well, it does not beat Ulysses misadventures but it is pretty bad. The story is about a 3 mast sailboat trying to pass the worn. They have taken 99 days and lost 3 men. Huge storms keep pushing them back. This was their course:










Can you imagine? that is absolutely crazy...what a nightmare 

The boat was this beauty:










The ship was the three mast "Susanna" with captain Christian Jürgens Simon and the year was 1905.


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## APP Mode

Does any of you experienced the NAJAD 355 or any other recent ones like the 380 /410 /440AC and CC /505/ 570?
I would like to see coments !


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## tdw

PCP said:


> Hey Andrews, if you liked the Elan 210 you are going to like this one, it is the same concept but on a North European view, the
> 
> snip


Nice. The idea of a simple nippy day sailor really does have appeal. There are plenty of days when it would be great to just jump on board and go for a blast, not to mention the occasional club race and/or twilight.


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## PCP

APP Mode said:


> Does any of you experienced the NAJAD 355 or any other recent ones like the 380 /410 /440AC and CC /505/ 570?
> I would like to see coments !


You are interested in all those boats?

Najad are expensive Luxury cruisers, very good boats with very nice quality interiors. They are on the same league with Halberg Rassy and Malo, all Swedish boats but I guess you already now that. Old ones are a bit on the slow side but new models are good sailing boats, a bit slower than the typical mass production cruiser in light wind but relatively fast and seaworthy with medium winds.

Here you have a movie from the Yachting Monthly test sail to the Najad 410:






And a test summary:

Najad 410 | Single-hull Boat Reviews | Yachting Monthly | Single-Hull Boat Reviews | Yachting Monthly

A test by Sail magazine on the 570 with a movie:

Najad 570 Test Sail | Sail Magazine

A movie of a 440ac in a race






Some test sails on the 355:

http://www.sailmagazine.com/sailboat-reviews/najad-355

http://www.cruisingworld.com/sailboats/boat-reviews/najad-355-perfecting-the-pocket-cruiser

http://48north.com/may_2008/najad/najad_1.htm

some more nice movies:
















And here a list of tests you can find about each model:

Najad Owners Forum - Boat Reviews

And you speak German and don't mind to pay 2€ for each you can find some good ones here, including some comparatives :

Download*|*YACHT.DE

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

An interesting book, or better an interesting new edition of this Jimmy Cornell classic:










I bought it on the Paris boat show, or better my wife bought it to me and I could not see it properly because she declare that it was my Christmas gift and wrap it up away from me

But it is basically composed with big A3 pages like this one:










A collection for a given ocean or zone, one page to each month.

The data was collected during the last 20 years by NASA and includes winds and currents.

The boat was also some comments about each region, problems, best way and time to cross and so on.

It would be very useful to the ones that are out there or that plan to cross oceans or sail extensively and it would be very useful to improve the quality of dreaming of all armchair sailors


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## PCP

A great movie with Soto 40 racing with a lot of wind






And another good one with Thomas Ruyant solo sailing a Beneteau Figaro:






And another one with a Solo Figaro, this time with Jean-Pierre Nicol:


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## Faster

PCP said:


> An interesting book, or better an interesting new edition of this Jimmy Cornell classic:
> 
> But it is basically composed with big A3 pages like this one:


Did some digging and here's an explanation of the symbols in the diagram above:



> The ocean charts in this atlas show the mean wind speed and direction for every month of the year in each of the world's oceans . Each wind rose is located in the centre of either a ten or a five degrees square and shows the distribution of the winds that prevail in that area from eight cardinal points . The arrows fly with the wind and their lengths show thepercentage of the total number of observations in which the wind has blown from that cardinal point . The number of feathers shows the forceof the wind, which has been recorded most frequently from that sector .
> The wind force is measured on the Beaufort scale, with each feather being equivalent to one unit of wind force, so that four feathers represent an average force 4 winds from that direction for that particular month . In areas with prevailing winds, the resulting arrow would be too long to be shown in its entirety, in which case for percentages higher than thirty, the percentage is shown numerically on the shaft .
> The figure in the centre of each circle gives either the percentage of calms in blue (less than force 2), or the percentage of storms in red (more than force 7), whichever is greater .
> Ocean currents are shown as green arrows indicating their prevailing direction while the rate is reflected in the number of feathers, each being equivalent to 0 .25 knots . Therefore, an arrow with four feathers indicates a mean rate of 1 knot during the month in question


Great Thread, Paulo.... keep it up!


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## tdw

Faster said:


> Did some digging and here's an explanation of the symbols in the diagram above:
> 
> Great Thread, Paulo.... keep it up!


I'm not awarding prizes but this has got to be one of if not the most interesting threads of the year. Well done indeed Master Paulo.


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## PCP

Thanks Faster and Andrews. To finish the night, just a classic boat movie: beautiful boats, pity those guys never see the sun






Refanut Baltic Classic Race 2011 Västervik-Trosa from Lars Öhman on Vimeo.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

I was very curious about what the testers of my preferred sail magazine would be saying after testing the Grand Soleil 39 and I would be interested in seeing if they would confirm the opinion that I have on the boat. I was and I am very impressed with that boat.

I had a good look at the boat at the Paris boat show but I did not have sailed the boat and my opinion about that was based on what Italian testers from several boat magazines had said about it (and the movies they had made). But they were Italians and the boat is also Italian so their opinion could be a bit more "favorable" than it should be if it was a non Italian boat. I was really interested in that German opinion, just to see if it matched with the one from the Italians.




























So, the opinion from the guys from the German "Yacht" magazine (translated):

*Sporty, beautiful and full of good ideas*

Cantiere del Pardo wants to reposition itself, and it builds a strong performance cruiser for the medium segment...

The sailing boat is powerful and left us with a good impression. The deck layout is high functional and have new and sophisticated approaches...

On deck, linen and sheets are hardly seen; the running rigging is as far as possible out in channels. Visually it looks classy and its functionality is clearly a plus.

Below deck, which is characterized by a very nice new and modern interior design....open and flooded with light.

Cantiere del Pardo works with a lot of white surfaces and an increasing number of white composite materials.This looks fabulous and relaxing giving a strong visually distinctive look. This is also due to the several large windows and an interior more luminous than before.

The standard boat is equipped with mahogany veneers but can also have an interior with light oak or teak.

*Well, I guess that they were impressed too*

You can read all the test on the last number of the magazine.


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## PCP

The much awaited substitute of the Hanse 400, the 415:























































The Hanse 400 is a great boat, a fast one for a cruiser and a boat that had in its interior the weakest part. Well in what regards sailing performance and stability this seems to be at least as good and probably better and faster than the late 400. A good looking boat with a modern design.

The water line is 0.6m longer, the boat has a more modern and efficient bulbed keel, a lot of beam carried aft in what seems to be a good looking hull, a big B/D ratio (taken into consideration this type of keel) and it offers Germam sheeting but contrary to the French boats this one at least offers the possibility of a separated winch for the genoa (I don't know if it is standard).

It offers also a considerable sail area, 87 m2, specially considering this is the sail area with a self taking jib. With a Genoa it will have well over 90 m2.




























Regarding the interior these layouts are not god enough to see if there is some improvement, but after seeing the Dehler 41 interior I am a bit pessimist. we can see already that the saloon will have only a small port hull, much smaller than in any French boat (even smaller than the two on the Grand soleil 39) and that the two cabin version only offers a small galley. To have a galley compared to what the Benetau 41 offers on the three cabin version we would have to go here for the two cabin version.

The boat will be at the Dusseldorf boat show.


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## Jeff_H

Every so often a member starts a thread that takes on a life of its own and becomes a unique resource for our community. To keep these threads visible they receive a stationary position on the forum. 

Such is the case with this thread and with Paulo's ongoing support of it. As a result SailNet Moderator Faster nominated this thread and asked me to confer the honor and thank Paulo for his hard work in creating this wonderful discussion. 

Thank you Paulo!


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## daviid

Hi Paulo

Just back from a sailing boot camp of RYA theory, first aid at sea and a prep week for the next step up but I have managed to follow the thread on my mobile with great interest.

Firstly congratulations on your Salona 38 choice - I am sure you have chosen well and that you will get what you expect. When I was in Croatia earlier this year, I had a look at the Salona 37 and realised that yachts are as much an affair of the heart as they are an affair of the head. To my eye, the Salona 37 in its non face-lifted version just doesn't have the look which probably explains why Salona opted for the colourful hulls? The face-lifted Salona 37 and the new Salona 38 on the other hand have all the specs AND the looks. 

Also thanks for the incredibly helpful information on keels - it seems that if we really want to compare stability, we need to compare RM stability charts for each boat - if only they were available on all yachts.

To my next point - More and more manufacturers seem to be putting the shrouds out on the gunwale as opposed to mounting them nearer the coach roof. I think this has been done partly due to mainsails becoming bigger, genoas becoming smaller but also no doubt to make the rig stronger and more stable. There is a downside to this though. Consider the Beneteau Oceanis 37 which is also one of my favourites. Some critics believe that the yacht is under canvassed and will suffer a little in light winds as well as when the yacht is on a broad reach or running without a spinnaker or assymetrical. With the shrouds out on the gunwale, it becomes more difficult and sometimes impossible to increase the size of the genoa to beyond the 105% that it comes out with. I notice too that the Grand Soleil 39 and the Hanse 415 have also placed the shrouds here. Surely you break even or win by having the shrouds inboard - albeit with additional re-inforcement - as this allows one to increase the size of the genoa to say 140%. It also allows you to achieve a tighter sheeting angle well sailing close hauled so it is a choice that I don't fully understand. The Dufour 375 by the way has the shrouds inboard which seemed to help in achieving a sparkling performance in the latest test in Sailing Today.

Congrats on the forum's award by the way - totally merited.

All the best

David


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## APP Mode

PCP said:


> You are interested in all those boats?
> 
> Najad are expensive Luxury cruisers, very good boats with very nice quality interiors. They are on the same league with Halberg Rassy and Malo, all Swedish boats but I guess you already now that. Old ones are a bit on the slow side but new models are good sailing boats, a bit slower than the typical mass production cruiser in light wind but relatively fast and seaworthy with medium winds.
> 
> Here you have a movie from the Yachting Monthly test sail to the Najad 410:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a test summary:
> 
> Najad 410 | Single-hull Boat Reviews | Yachting Monthly | Single-Hull Boat Reviews | Yachting Monthly
> 
> A test by Sail magazine on the 570 with a movie:
> 
> Najad 570 Test Sail | Sail Magazine
> 
> A movie of a 440ac in a race
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some test sails on the 355:
> 
> Najad 355 | Sail Magazine
> 
> Najad 355 Sailboat Review | Cruising World
> 
> 48° North - Test Sail
> 
> some more nice movies:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here a list of tests you can find about each model:
> 
> Najad Owners Forum - Boat Reviews
> 
> And you speak German and don't mind to pay 2€ for each you can find some good ones here, including some comparatives :
> 
> Download*|*YACHT.DE
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo Thanks for you help.
I have seen a lot of NAJAD yachts movies in the youtube, but it would be interesting to hear opinions and experiences from the owners. Have you sailed one or been on board in the international fairs, like Paris?
From what i searched these brand is more expensive than HR and Mallo in general comparing the same length.


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## PCP

APP Mode said:


> Paulo Thanks for you help.
> I have seen a lot of NAJAD yachts movies in the youtube, but it would be interesting to hear opinions and experiences from the owners. Have you sailed one or been on board in the international fairs, like Paris?
> From what i searched these brand is more expensive than HR and Mallo in general comparing the same length.


The Najad normally are not at the Paris boat show and the best place to see them is in Dusseldorf and also on the Hamburg boat show.

I have never sailed one but have been many time inside Najads, particularly the 380 and the 410. About seven years ago the boat I saw as ideal for me was a Najad, an Halberg Rassy or a Malo and the size I was interested in was 38/40 ft so as you can imagine I followed very closely all the test sails and on the boat shows I was careful in comparing the interiors and the build quality that is very high for the three boats, specially in what concerns the interior.

I particularly liked the Najad 380 and even more the Malo 40. At the time the Halberg- Rassy only had the older 37 center cockpit (that is still on production) and Malo a 36ft or a 40ft. The Najad 380 offered more than the Halberg Rassy and I liked also the more modern design (I even felt that the quality was a bit better) of the Najad 380.

Today Halberg-Rassy has modernized its production and the 372 is a faster and more modern boat than the Najad 380 even if not with the same interior space and probably with an interior with a slight less quality.

As you know Najad went down and recently was bought by a Swedish motor boat company. We will see if they maintain the quality, that always was a benchmark and if they chose, as Halberg-Rassy, to modernize the boats to match in sail performance other high end cruisers, like the cruising line of X-yachts.

Regards

Paulo


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## APP Mode

I will try to go to Dusseldorf 2012, they are going to show both 440 (AC and CC).
I agree with you about the N380. Its accommodations facilities and many other things are very unique comparing to other boats that are available in the market in the same size. 
The HR372 is an amazing boat with excellent cruising performance, even in the " YACHTING Monthly" article when they tested the boat, they mentioned that it is a good value of money.
Malo in my opinion has a pleasant cockpit , but i don't understand this brand why they didn't built a nice space aft cabin in the Malo 47 like we can find in the N380? But the interiors are well finished.

About NAJAD crisis it was good news that Nordwest bought it , and i am confident about it.

Regards


----------



## Faster

daviid said:


> To my next point - More and more manufacturers seem to be putting the shrouds out on the gunwale as opposed to mounting them nearer the coach roof. ..... There is a downside to this though. ....... Surely you break even or win by having the shrouds inboard - ... It also allows you to achieve a tighter sheeting angle well sailing close hauled so it is a choice that I don't fully understand.


I think this concept makes a lot of sense overall... if the rig is designed around it, you end up with much more manageable headsails.. and fewer required. As far as pointing ability pretty much all of these boats sheet their non overlapping headsails inside the shrouds, and in fact now there's virtually no limit to the sheeting angle achievable. Of course how far inboard you can go depends a lot on the rest of the rig/hull/keel configuration.

But overall, on the wind you won't need a lot of pressure before you're fully powered up with the standard rig (with enough power in the mainsail, of course) and off the wind the various Code 0s and Code Ds etc on a sprit will fill the gap between beating and running that traditionally required a whopping genoa.


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## tdw

I'm not convinced with centre cockpits under 40' but once over they do come into their own. For mine I don't understand why Malo didn't go CC for the 47. 
I must say I do like the HR43. 
One thing i don't like about Najad are those kinked settees. i like straight so you can lie down in some comfort.

Cheers

Andrew


----------



## bjung

Jeff_H said:


> Every so often a member starts a thread that takes on a life of its own and becomes a unique resource for our community. To keep these threads visible they receive a stationary position on the forum.
> 
> Such is the case with this thread and with Paulo's ongoing support of it. As a result SailNet Moderator Faster nominated this thread and asked me to confer the honor and thank Paulo for his hard work in creating this wonderful discussion.
> 
> Thank you Paulo!


I must say, I have to agree with Jeff, even though I don't always agree with Paulo....
Thanks Paulo!
Bernd


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> ...
> ...
> Also thanks for the incredibly helpful information on keels - it seems that if we really want to compare stability, we need to compare RM stability charts for each boat - if only they were available on all yachts.


Hey David,

Yes it is the only way even if with some practice and after looking at a lot of boats keels and stability curves you start to have a good idea of what is good and bad.

It is necessary to have some caution with those stability curves because they do not result all from the same computer program and can be a bit misleading. I normally cross check that information with the one that you find on the ORC international files regarding AVS. Those numbers are all obtained the same way and so they provide meaningful comparisons and a reference board.

If you say to a dealer that you are interested in a boat but want to confirm the stability and wants to have a look at the stability curve they will get one for you. You have just to ask the right way.



daviid said:


> To my next point - More and more manufacturers seem to be putting the shrouds out on the gunwale as opposed to mounting them nearer the coach roof. I think this has been done partly due to mainsails becoming bigger, genoas becoming smaller but also no doubt to make the rig stronger and more stable. ... With the shrouds out on the gunwale, it becomes more difficult and sometimes impossible to increase the size of the genoa to beyond the 105% that it comes out with. I notice too that the Grand Soleil 39 and the Hanse 415 have also placed the shrouds here.
> 
> Surely you break even or win by having the shrouds inboard - albeit with additional re-inforcement - as this allows one to increase the size of the genoa to say 140%. It also allows you to achieve a tighter sheeting angle well sailing close hauled so it is a choice that I don't fully understand. ..


Yes, you are right. it has an advantage in the mast stability to have the shrouds out on gunwales but that would make impossible a big 140% or 150% genoa.

Also right into noting that even some cruisers (like Hanse 415) are putting the front sail travelers more inside, over the cockpit and they are also much smaller. This permits with a jib to have a very good wind angle against the wind. I guess that has to do not only with racing (where big genoas are much penalized) but also to the generalization of geenakers that have no problem with the outside shrouds and that are the sails that are used till 13K wind.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> I think this concept makes a lot of sense overall... if the rig is designed around it, you end up with much more manageable headsails.. and fewer required. As far as pointing ability pretty much all of these boats sheet their non overlapping headsails inside the shrouds, and in fact now there's virtually no limit to the sheeting angle achievable. Of course how far inboard you can go depends a lot on the rest of the rig/hull/keel configuration.
> 
> But overall, on the wind you won't need a lot of pressure before you're fully powered up with the standard rig (with enough power in the mainsail, of course) and off the wind the various Code 0s and Code Ds etc on a sprit will fill the gap between beating and running that traditionally required a whopping genoa.


Yes and I guess that would suit the majority of cruisers but in what regards cruising I would prefer to have a Jib on a removable stay sail, a 140 or 150% genoa and a code D, those new type of sails that permits to run and to have a good performance since 60º.

On those boats with shrouds on the gunwales you have to go with a Jib a code 0 and have also asymmetrical spynacker.

It is arguable but I think the first solution is more flexible and less expensive and provide also a reasonable god downwind sail for medium to heavy wind (18/25k), I mean a strong genoa works well on those conditions while on the other configuration the Jib is too small and the wind is too much for the geenaker or code 0.

That should be an interesting discussion. I say this based on my experience and on the use of a strong 150% genoa ad a code 0, but I would be very interested in hearing other opinions that result from the use of different sails.

This is an interesting topic

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

PCP said:


> This is an interesting topic
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, and if it develops perhaps we'll move things to it's own thread.

We have a rather severe 3/4 frac rig but a large and powerful main. We do not have shrouds outboard, but we have decided to go with just a lapper jib, an Asymm and a conventional Spinnaker.

The rig proportions mean the headsails are small and manageable, esp for a doublehanded couple. Up until last summer I did feel the lack of power upwind in the light stuff, but then we were dragging a fixed prop. Now with a refurbished Max prop we are much faster in the lower ranges - enough to ease my earlier frustrations.

We can hit hull speeds beating once we have around 8 - 10 knots apparent. Off the wind the other sails will keep us moving rather well too. There are days when I'd like a larger headsail, but to be honest around here if the destination is upwind and there's not enough breeze to make real good time, we either choose a closer destination or resort to the iron gennaker.

The small jib means we adjust power via the main, reefing as required and have yet had to resort to partially rolling the jib.. beating (arguably our jointly favourite point of sail) is easy, the tacks are zip-zip, no yards/metres of sheet to haul or grind. No sailbags to find space for other than the off wind sails.

This is, of course, a non-racing scenario and I certainly don't mean to suggest that a single headsail program is for everyone.. on those older rigs with long J and short E measurement you simply don't have the flexibility in the mainsail to cover most situations.

For us, though, it's working. We sail more often because it's easy to do so, we fly the spinnaker a lot because despite being 35 feet, the foretriangle dimensions are closer to the average 29-30 foot masthead boat, keeping things manageable.

The basic concept being advanced in today's rigs - non overlapping and/or self tacking headsails, larger, more powerful, more adjustable mainsails, and the almost standard addition of some kind of sprit or prod along with efficient A sails is appealing on a number of levels.. at least to us.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> ..
> One thing i don't like about Najad are those kinked settees. i like straight so you can lie down in some comfort.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andrew


Andrews, they don't use them anymore:

Najad 410 Virtual Tour

Those seats were designed for chicks with back curves like this:










Just right to lay down comfortably.
Unfortunately they are quite rare these days...but they certainly deserve that bench

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Interesting boat, not a new one but one that is becoming bigger all the time: GP26, a boat designed by an Australian, Fred Barrett, a racer that is becoming big as a designer

*"Over the past decade Fred Barrett has been involved in many yacht design and building projects, including project managing the building of maxi yachts at McConaghy Boats in Sydney and shore and technical manager for the Spanish yacht Moviestar for the 2005-2006 Volvo round the world race, as well as running his own design consultancy.

His latest designs, in addition to Fang to the Max, include an 80-footer being built by McConaghy Boats for a Russian yachtsman and a GP26 nearing completion at Van Munsters in NSW.*

Sail-World.com : Tasmanian sports boats heading for Audi Victoria Week

*The GP 26 is a Grand Prix "BOX RULE" racing yacht introduced and administered by the International ORC organization. This level rating rule class (similar in concept to the TP52) is designed to provide exciting close class racing (without a time allowance or handicap system), be fast, fun to sail, sound and seaworthy with considerable longevity. *





































Specifications

ORC Special Regulations to Cat 4
Length Overall 7.9m
Maximum Beam 2.55m
Max Draft 1.9m
Max Displacement 1050kgs
Keel Weight 500kg
Max Crew Weight 340kg

Sail Area

Main 24.7 m2
Jib 15.35 m2
Asymmetric Spinnaker 70.49m2

The GP 26, a Design Brief by Fred Barrett:

A local Sydney yachtsman commissioned the intial design for a new class of yacht in the range of 26 feet. This was at a time when the newly formulated GP26 rule just beginning to take off, particularly in South America. It was quickly decided that the new design should reflect the GP26 rule and indeed be the first commissioned and built GP26 in Australia. ..

The design work has been extensive with a matrix of boat shapes tested and culminating in Boat "I" which we felt best represented our initial desires. The GP26 rule clearly defines the rig and sail parameters and so this is our fenced in area from which to place the best combination of hull shape, appendage and bulb configurations along with deck layout and the structural plan.

The rule requires ABS to be followed and in setting up the structure and the result is a robust, but relatively lightweight package, that given the required use of E-glass and Epoxy laminates makes for a cost effective approach. It could be argued that the use of carbon in future rule amendments could save cost, due in part to the need for less laminate weight but given the ABS rule, for this size of yacht the use of more traditional laminates will serve the rule well.

Appendage design is tricky, small is fast, bit only with speed. Big is best but comes with more drag. In this case we went for the fast option and the devil is always in the detail and how the rig combines with the side force developed by both the keel fin and rudder blade. In the same way the bulb design work looked at short and long forms.

The longer bulb chosen reflects our best combination of keel fin weight (rule constraints on keel width and construction) and bulb mass. Getting as much lead as low as possible is the key to getting the righting moment up and perhaps trading off some BWL to get the up-range performance right when heeled along with lighter air modes in general by reducing wetted area.

The cockpit is large, wide and shallow for great crew traffic throughout racing and the cabin detail reflects the best way of getting through the IMS based internal headroom and cabin plane requirements. The hard chine / angular approach to the cabin also comes in handy when setting up hardware...

*The final result will be a fast, fun small yacht really a modern day approach to the quarter tonners of old and a new entry level class that is recognised by the ORC and deemed a Grand Prix class, surely a great thing to want to build and go racing in.*

GP 26

And look at it: Fast and fun it is for sure


----------



## Faster

Enjoy a well deserved break, Paulo... all the best to you and your family.


----------



## EricKLYC

What is the difference between a VPLP cruising catamaran and a VPLP racing trimaran?

30 knots!

Or when the Atlantic Rally for Cruisers meets the Jules Verne Trophy.
From both points of view, this must have been a close encounter of the third kind... Enjoy!

"Quand un Lagoon se prend un vent" 2 : vu du Lagoon...

All the best to you all for 2012,

Eric


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Andrews, they don't use them anymore:
> 
> Najad 410 Virtual Tour
> 
> Those seats were designed for chicks with back curves like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just right to lay down comfortably.
> Unfortunately they are quite rare these days...but they certainly deserve that bench
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Kinky ...


----------



## daviid

Hi Paulo and Faster

Thanks for all the info - much obliged. As a cruiser, my DNA is built around LIM - less is more - single headsail programs for a short handed sailing would not be my choice even if they give a better result in terms of sale trim and performance. 

What peaked my interest was the following SA/D info pertaining to the Oceanis 37:

* SA/D - adjusted to 100% for the fore triangle so that the genoa size which can vary from 1 manufacturer to the next, does not give a distorted result - 19.4 (Jeanneau 36i Performance - 18.9);
* SA/D - as per actual size of fitted genoa which in this case is 105% - 19.8
* SA/D on a Jeanneau 36i Performance which is comparable in many ways as per actual size of fitted genoa (135% genoa) - 22.0

Despite the difference in SA/D with fitted genoa, the polar for the Oceanis 37 is still better (slightly) than the J36iP - so if one could eek out a liitle more sail area in the genoa .... 

I am not familiar with a code D but from this discussion it seems that it is a sail which can be mounted on a furler which has an effective range from a close reach (60 degrees) to running? How does it differ from a code zero? My LIM sail wardrobe would be mainsail (a given), a headsail which is able to go from zero to hero as in flying a handkerchief in strong wind up to 140% for light winds and an assymetrical which can be mounted on a furling system or snuffer for easy deployment short handed. Would the code D replace the assymetrical? Can one get away without a staysail or storm jib which would need to be mounted on another forestay and which would require one to leave the cockpit in treacherous conditions?

All the best to all over the festive season- onwards and upwards

David


----------



## EricKLYC

daviid said:


> I am not familiar with a code D but from this discussion it seems that it is a sail which can be mounted on a furler which has an effective range from a close reach (60 degrees) to running? How does it differ from a code zero? My LIM sail wardrobe would be mainsail (a given), a headsail which is able to go from zero to hero as in flying a handkerchief in strong wind up to 140% for light winds and an assymetrical which can be mounted on a furling system or snuffer for easy deployment short handed. Would the code D replace the assymetrical? Can one get away without a staysail or storm jib which would need to be mounted on another forestay and which would require one to leave the cockpit in treacherous conditions?


It seems a code D is exactly what you want in a LIM sail wardrobe, David. 
It has been conceived as a blend of an asymmetrical spinnaker and a code 0. The luff of the sail is almost as straight as a code 0, so the sail can more easily be furled. But towards the leech the sail is shaped more like a spinnaker, for better downwind performance.


Van Drop Box

The straighter luff makes the sail more forgiving for the helmsman and more straightforward to trim. And with a pole it can even be used much further downwind than an asymmetric spinnaker.

I think Paulo already posted this diagram:


Van Drop Box

No doubt a code 0 will perform better upwind and an asymmetric spinnaker will be more fun on a beam reach. But the code D looks very much like the best of two worlds and probably makes perfect sense when you want to reduce the number of sails -and the costs- especially with the focus on easy handling. 
By the way, on the Océanis 37 such a sail might also be a good answer to your question about a bigger foretriangle since the 105% jib does very well upwind, except in very light airs.

I fully agree with Faster's analysis about shrouds on the toerail. If the sailplan is adapted -powerful main, non or little overlapping jib, code sail(s)- it has many advantages. 
The loads are transferred directly to the deck-hull-bulkhead joint, which is stronger and much cheaper than inboard designs with pullbars intruding the interior. 
The rig is also better sustained laterally, with less tension on the shrouds and compression on the mast. Within the same safety margin mast and rig can therefore be made to lesser dimensions, which is again cheaper. And also lighter, which is very important for performance because every extra pound high up in the rig needs to be compensated by many more pounds down in the keel.
In my honest opinion, the only real drawback is the obstructive lower diagonal when you need to go to the foredeck.

With such a sailplan, I think there is no need any more for large, overlapping genoa. They give you a very hard job when tacking and are much less efficient on a modern, fractioned rig. 
Any foresail gets more baggy with every turn on the furling drum, which is exactly what you do not want when the wind builds up. The bigger the sail, the baggier it gets, with less pointing and more heel as a result. The more you furl, the higher the sail comes with even more heel. 
So there is no way to make a from zero to hero genoa. If you want the sail to fly in light winds, you need light sailcloth. It will not resist furling and certainly not in strong winds.

With a powerful mainsail and a non overlapping jib reefing the main is the first move, even the second. Afterwards I prefer not to furl the jib but just get rid of it by rolling it away at once and rig a staysail. 
This means working on the foredeck, but if bad weather can be foreseen -which is mostly the case- most of the work can be done beforehand and the sail will only need to be released from its bag or lashings.
Then you get a foresail with a custom design for strong winds, flat shape and heavy cloth. It also brings the center of the sailplan down and backwards, which is exactly what you want in heavy conditions. It can also be fitted with a reef, certainly a hard job to take in when it gets that bad, but at that time any furling headsail would be of no use at all.

So in my honest opinion, LIM with a big mainsail means a jib, a code D and a staysail for security.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## daviid

Hi Eric

Great explanation - thank you very much - merci mille fois !!

All the best

David


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> .....
> With such a sailplan, I think there is no need any more for large, overlapping genoa. They give you a very hard job when tacking and are much less efficient on a modern, fractioned rig.
> Any foresail gets more baggy with every turn on the furling drum, which is exactly what you do not want when the wind builds up. The bigger the sail, the baggier it gets, with less pointing and more heel as a result. The more you furl, the higher the sail comes with even more heel.
> So there is no way to make a from zero to hero genoa. If you want the sail to fly in light winds, you need light sailcloth. It will not resist furling and certainly not in strong winds.
> 
> With a powerful mainsail and a non overlapping jib reefing the main is the first move, even the second. Afterwards I prefer not to furl the jib but just get rid of it by rolling it away at once and rig a staysail.
> This means working on the foredeck, but if bad weather can be foreseen -which is mostly the case- most of the work can be done beforehand and the sail will only need to be released from its bag or lashings.
> Then you get a foresail with a custom design for strong winds, flat shape and heavy cloth. It also brings the center of the sailplan down and backwards, which is exactly what you want in heavy conditions. It can also be fitted with a reef, certainly a hard job to take in when it gets that bad, but at that time any furling headsail would be of no use at all.
> 
> So in my honest opinion, LIM with a big mainsail means a jib, a code D and a staysail for security.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Great post, but I am not convinced about the best choice of sails.

Of course it will depend on the boat and on the size of the main but assuming a light boat with an average sized main, perhaps that's the better solution If you have a code 0 and an asymmetric spinnaker.

With a single downwind sail, like a code D you can only use it to go upwind at a little more than 60º. In light winds you would not have the power to sail at decent speeds against the wind.

With a 140 or 150% genoa you have already plenty power and can sail at a decent speed with 5K true wind. Depending on the boat that genoa allows you to maintain full sail till around 16/18K apparent wind and probably you can keep it with a reef on the main and slightly furled (that has not a great influence on sail shape) till 20/22 apparent wind and over that you can put the stay sail, shake the reef on the main and have power again.

A small head sail would not have problem sailing upwind with 9 or 10K true wind at almost hull speed but that's if you don't get 3 m waves or those nasty short smaller med waves that can stop you if you don't have lot's of power and here comes the big genoa again: power

The genoa is also useful for going downwind over 16K. Those big and light sails like the code D are designed to sail with light wind and they cannot take winds over 15/16K. If you go with 16K downwind with a small front sail you don't go fast and a main is a bad sail to go downwind with medium to strong winds: it is difficult to reef on those conditions and unbalances the boat a lot more than a front sail, that is far more simple to roll.

I remember a full night going downwind with 19/24K apparent wind making 9/10K speed with a full genoa, and later a slightly rolled genoa with the main with one and later two reefs, with the boat perfectly balanced. With a small head sail I would not have half the fun neither a decent speed.

That was with the Bavaria 36, with a Salona 38 that would be probably 11 to 14K speed, providing you have a sail that can handle that wind and has enough sail area.

I know, a small asymetric spinaker would be ideal, but that is one more sail

Regards

Paulo

PS. I am not replying soon, catching an airplane to Rome


----------



## jacobno

Hi, I agree with you Paulo. A furling overlapping genoa is a much more versatile sail compared to a small jib. Even though a selftacker really makes life easy when shorthanded(family) cruising. I would maybe compromise and choose 120-130%. 

Although I like the LIM philosophy i think the properties of code 0 and asym spi is difficult to combine in a good way. Using a Code D with a furler you would have a hard time using it with the spinnaker boom for the highest angles, useful in narrow waters.

Also I do not mind changing sails in lighter winds. Actually I find it makes sailing even more fun.

BTW great thread, and congrats with Salona 38. I totally understand choosing that boat.


----------



## EricKLYC

We will certainly have a code 0 + an asymmetric spinnaker, for more range and better speed. You know, dinghy sailors...
But I still think the code D can be a good compromise if one does not want to carry (and/or invest in) both sails. I also enjoy sail changes as a part of sailing fun, but I’m sure many other cruisers find it cumbersome and will be glad to trade some performance for more versatility. 
And when it comes down to costs, a code 0 + a furler and a spinnaker + a snuffer or a high-tech furler will of course be much more expensive than a single code D + furler.

Concerning genoa’s versus non overlapping jibs, it will probably very much depend on the basic design of the rig and thus the sailplan. 

Both headsails are less efficient on a fractional rig, especially upwind, because they take lesser profit from the upwash of the main. Mast top rigs now seem old fashioned, but in this concept the small, tall main (short boom, high aspect ratio) gives little power but creates upwash along the full lufflength of the genoa, which provides most of the power. This is one of the many reasons why IOR designs perform well upwind.
This configuration has been given up in modern designs, racers following rules when the IOR rating disappeared. And for cruisers because reducing sail meant frequently changing the headsail.

Then came the fractioned rigs, allowing to tune the mast rake -and trim the shape of the main- much more efficiently. And roller reefing systems, which do not work well with big genoa’s. 
Mainsails are now much larger, generating more power and much better to trim to very different shapes. Subsequently foresails become smaller, less powerful but also better manageable when tacking and easier to reef with a roller. 

I think Paulo’s example of the Bavaria 36, a very successful design, might illustrate the latest stages of this evolution. 
Already a fractioned rig but still with a genoa (36 m2) significantly larger than the main (30 m2). Shrouds are built inwards to allow a correct sheeting angle of the genoa upwind.

In the sailplan of the latest version of the 36 the mast has moved forward, with a longer boom, bigger main (42 m2) with a lower aspect ratio and smaller jib (27 m2). 
Shrouds are now fitted on the toerail which prohibits headsails overlapping more than 5 to 10 %. 

The total sail area has grown a little from 66 to 69 m2. The displacement much more so the sailplan by itself cannot explain differences in performances, but it seems Paulo’s 36 must be quite faster than the latest version because of an much better S/D ratio. 

But the issue in this discussion is that the main has grown from 45% to 61% of the total upwind sail area. The headsail shrinked from 55% to 39%. 
The mainsail is now privileged for power, the question is whether this will impair performance upwind, even against a heavy sea. My personal feeling is that this would not be the case with a fractioned rig, because it pays less to favor the headsail for power.

Downwind is a very different matter. A big main will very soon screen off a smaller jib, which becomes mostly useless when sailing lower than a beam reach. 
For some time an genoa behind a smaller main will perform better, certainly if a sufficiently long track rail is fitted to control the sheeting angle. But at some point the genoa will need a pole, which can also be used with a code D.
Dead downwind, nothing beats a symmetric spinnaker. But I think this is way off David’s LIM concept.

In conclusion, don’t you think a modern design with the shrouds on the toerail, a forward placed fractioned rig, a big main for power and a small headsail for handling, a code D for fun and a staysail (+ a deep third reef in the main) for security can work very well for cruising in most conditions?

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## bjung

I'm not sure, if this boat has been posted yet...?
Gunfleet 43, was exhibited at the Southhampton Boatshow, a new venture for Richard Mathews (founder of Oyster Yachts), and designed by Tony Castro.
I find the design quite innovative, and not a repetition of features on other "new" designs, from the deck layout, helm (why hasn't anyone else thought of this?), and interior design. Also notable are the many opening portholes and hatches for good ventilation below, which so many new designs lack. Sail handling looks like the boat would be easy to single hand as well. 
The Mathews/ Castro combo should also assure good sailing performance, can't wait for a review.....
13m Gunfleet 43 | Tony Castro Yacht Design


----------



## worldcruiser

What about Jongerts


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> ....
> 
> Concerning genoa's versus non overlapping jibs, it will probably very much depend on the basic design of the rig and thus the sailplan.
> 
> Both headsails are less efficient on a fractional rig, especially upwind, because they take lesser profit from the upwash of the main. Mast top rigs now seem old fashioned, but in this concept the small, tall main (short boom, high aspect ratio) gives little power but creates upwash along the full lufflength of the genoa, which provides most of the power. This is one of the many reasons why IOR designs perform well upwind.
> This configuration has been given up in modern designs, racers following rules when the IOR rating disappeared. And for cruisers because reducing sail meant frequently changing the headsail.
> 
> Then came the fractioned rigs, allowing to tune the mast rake -and trim the shape of the main- much more efficiently. And roller reefing systems, which do not work well with big genoa's.
> Mainsails are now much larger, generating more power and much better to trim to very different shapes. Subsequently foresails become smaller, less powerful but also better manageable when tacking and easier to reef with a roller.
> 
> I think Paulo's example of the Bavaria 36, a very successful design, might illustrate the latest stages of this evolution.
> Already a fractioned rig but still with a genoa (36 m2) significantly larger than the main (30 m2). Shrouds are built inwards to allow a correct sheeting angle of the genoa upwind.
> 
> In the sailplan of the latest version of the 36 the mast has moved forward, with a longer boom, bigger main (42 m2) with a lower aspect ratio and smaller jib (27 m2).
> Shrouds are now fitted on the toerail which prohibits headsails overlapping more than 5 to 10 %.
> 
> The total sail area has grown a little from 66 to 69 m2. The displacement much more so the sailplan by itself cannot explain differences in performances, but it seems Paulo's 36 must be quite faster than the latest version because of an much better S/D ratio.
> 
> But the issue in this discussion is that the main has grown from 45% to 61% of the total upwind sail area. The headsail shrinked from 55% to 39%.
> The mainsail is now privileged for power, the question is whether this will impair performance upwind, even against a heavy sea. My personal feeling is that this would not be the case with a fractioned rig, because it pays less to favor the headsail for power.
> 
> Downwind is a very different matter. A big main will very soon screen off a smaller jib, which becomes mostly useless when sailing lower than a beam reach.
> 
> For some time an genoa behind a smaller main will perform better, certainly if a sufficiently long track rail is fitted to control the sheeting angle. But at some point the genoa will need a pole, which can also be used with a code D.
> Dead downwind, nothing beats a symmetric spinnaker. But I think this is way off David's LIM concept.
> 
> In conclusion, don't you think a modern design with the shrouds on the toerail, a forward placed fractioned rig, a big main for power and a small headsail for handling, a code D for fun and a staysail (+ a deep third reef in the main) for security can work very well for cruising in most conditions?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Hei Eric, great post!

That analyses of the evolution of the rig and main sail versus front sail is very good and in my opinion accurate but that is a very recent tendency that was started by Hanse some years ago when they come with self-taking small jibs and huge mainsails (for the time).

It seems that they got it right and everybody is following. As I have said, for most, in what regards mainstream cruising, I think it is a better solution: more manageable front sail and an easy reefing mainsail, now that almost all main market cruising boats come with a furling mainsail.

But of course this only applies to very recent boats that were designed to have a big main and a smaller front sail.

But if we look at performance cruisers, that many times are also used fort club racing or are de-tuned versions of boats more used for racing than for cruising I think the tendency has also much to do with the bad handicap a big genoa has today under most rules. Regarding using such a rig mainly for performance cruising, and off course on these cases you have a non-furling main, another problem arises: Automatic furling (only one 1 line to pull the reef in) only permits two reefs on the main and almost all boats come standard with only two reefs on the main and that is not enough for safety on a big main.

Of course you can mount a two line small third reef to really bad weather and you should but the fact is that most boats come without one.

But I was assuming a small choice of sails (4) that is what most cruisers have, when do they not have only two and that is about that situation I am talking about regarding what is the more flexible choice, a big genoa or a noon overlaping front sail.

The 4 sails I am talking about are these: a small front storm sail, a non overlapping front sail or a 135/150%) and a downwind/upwind bigger sail for light wind.

As you have said regarding the configuration of your boat, if instead of a single sail for light wind you have two as you say, a code 0 for upwind sailing and an asymmetric spinaker for downwind sailing, that configuration could be more versatile but you have already one more big expensive sail. And I would say that you need another one, a smaller asymmetric spinnaker for strong downwind sailing that is where you would have more fun with your boat

That big asymmetric spinnaker for light winds is to be used till 16K winds and you can risk it till 18/20k winds but with more than that is of no use.

As your small jib has not enough power for a decent speed (and to have fun downwind) you would have to use a relatively big area of the main and that is a bad idea downwind. A strong genoa would have been a much better option and for strong I don't mean the dracon sails that come standard with the boat but the options that almost all brands have for more performant and stronger sails (sandwich pentex sails or mylar sails).

If the wind picks up, at 35K or more, alone or with your wife, you would have trouble to de-power the main and to bring it down. With the huge wind force on the sail it would not come down from the last reef unless you have rigged a line on top of the sail to do just that (almost nobody has it and it would not be easy anyway) and you will find that with a small jib and a too much main sail area out, the boat will be very hard to turn to the wind to take the main down, even with the engine at full power.

I had experienced some troubles with that and even if I was not in danger it was probably one of the two situations were I felt not very confortable with the handling of my boat:

I had come out of Morocco with a Force 7 warning but as I would have it downwind I sailed away, for crossing the Gibraltar strait heading to Portugal.

I has having fun with 25/35K wind with a 3 reefed main and a partially furled genoa on a bumpy sea when, near the Spanish coast, that Force 7 upgraded for a Force 9/10 with winds of about 50K or more (I confess that looking at the wind force was the last of my concerns).

That was not gradual but come just in some seconds and without warning. The sea state become nasty, kind of Colorado river if you know what I mean, the boat had too much main and I was not able to maintain the course downwind, the boat turning to the wind, and of course, I could not pull the boom in and complete the turn because with that wind I was afraid to capsize the boat.

With that sea state I was afraid to let the boat on autopilot and go forward to pull the sail down (remember that the boat was turning on the wind and was unable to maintain course and that the spreaders made impossible to de-power the main). Finally at the third or 4th attempt with the engine full on and pulling the boom in as much as I dared and deeply heeled I managed to complete that turn and put the boat against the wind to take down the main.

After that, with the main rolled to the size of a small towel I was able to purse in complete safety doing 9K downwind and having fun in that very agitated sea, with lots of power and complete control.

This talked a lesson to me: Never to be caught in strong winds with the main on and as a preventing measure, if sailing alone, over 25/30K to sail downwind only with a genoa, instead of a main and genoa.

Later I talked with some friends that are experienced solo sailors and all have passed by this situation and knew precisely what I mean and I guess that they had got their lesson too

This problem is just a bigger problem if you have only a small jib that would not give you the power to sail fast downwind with 25/30K without the main and you would have to use it also, so you cannot avoid this unless you have a small dedicated spinnaker to go downwind..

I guess that I am not going to be caught again in a situation like the one I have described, at least in a boat that was a 135% genoa because with that sail I can go downwind fast with a 25K wind, but with a non overlapping small sail I would not have enough front sail and I would have to use the mainsail, so I cannot avoid it unless I have a dedicated strong wind small asymmetric spinnaker.

That would make 6 sails against 4, I mean:

1 - dedicated storm jib, 2 - non overlapping front sail, 3 - mainsail, 4 - asymmetric spinnaker, 5 - code 0 and 6 - small asymmetric spinnaker for winds over 20K.

Against: 1 - dedicated storm jib, 2 - 135% or 150% genoa, 3 - mainsail and 4-Code D.

With the last configuration the need of a third reef would also be smaller.

Of course you will sail faster with the 6 sails, the 4 are only a compromise that will not give the same performance but if you are only going to have 4 sails on board the second choice is much more flexible and even more easy for short sailing.

Remember you have to go out of the cockpit to rig that asymmetric spinnaker for strong winds with 20/25K and the sea is not always nice with that wind.

On the other option the genoa is already in place and you will only need to furl and unfurl it from the cockpit. You will only need to go forward for mounting the storm sail if things really turn out really nasty.

Hey guys, remember I am talking only in what regards performance sailing.

With 25K winds Eric's boat will go probably over 8K downwind even with only that small non overlapping head-sail but I guess that he don't want to see me passing him downwind with a big genoa and doing 10K. So he has to put the turbo on and rig a proper asymmetric spinnaker, one that can take 25 to 35K wind and go away doing over 14K, or it has to sail with the main and the small front sail and it will be exposed to a sudden rise of wind force.

Not a problem if you have a crew and not a very frequent situation but one that will eventually happen if you sail enough time and are not afraid of winds over 25K.

Of course, in what regards mainstream cruisers the modern tendency of the smaller front sail and bigger main makes all the sense, specially with furling mainsails and that's why practically all modern cruisers have gone that way.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

worldcruiser said:


> What about Jongerts


They are great and strong boats built in aluminium. They only make big boats, over 60ft and they are selling much more motor yachts than sailing yachts.

I find they have a superstructure unnecessarily high and I don't like their traditional models, I mean the design and the sailing, not the quality

But I like some, particularly this 100ft, a Tony de Castro 2002 design:



















They are proposing a 90ft nice Frers design (not any built) that is not far in design from what is offered already from several other shipyards that have made already several boats, like Shipman (even if those are Carbon boats):




























What they are selling is this:

- Jongert Luxury Super Yachts

And I guess it will be their future.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

bjung said:


> I'm not sure, if this boat has been posted yet...?
> Gunfleet 43, was exhibited at the Southhampton Boatshow, a new venture for Richard Mathews (founder of Oyster Yachts), and designed by Tony Castro.
> I find the design quite innovative, and not a repetition of features on other "new" designs, from the deck layout, helm (why hasn't anyone else thought of this?), and interior design. Also notable are the many opening portholes and hatches for good ventilation below, which so many new designs lack. Sail handling looks like the boat would be easy to single hand as well.
> The Mathews/ Castro combo should also assure good sailing performance, can't wait for a review.....
> 13m Gunfleet 43 | Tony Castro Yacht Design


Hei Bjung, thanks for posting, but I guess that we don't have the same opinion I like the interior and the overall quality and that's all.

I saw this design some months back then it was on Southampton and Hamburg boat shows but as I did not like the boat I did not post about it.

I found the boat very ugly and with an old hull design although a modern bulbed keel.





































That is a very British boat in a bad sense, I mean old design and ugly, one that only the English would like (are you English Bjung) but things are not what used to be anymore and even the English are making nice looking boats now. I bet than in two years they are going out of business and that Southerly are going to eat them alive.

That wheel even if nice it is not new. Arcona DS and Dehler 41 DS among others used them.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

tdw said:


> Hey Paulo,
> 
> Thought this my interest you. Our godson is crewing on a Salona 44 in this year's Sydney to Hobart.
> 
> Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2011.. The Yachts
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andrew


Hey Andrews, I have seen that the Salona 44 and your godson have done well on the Hobart: 32th overall and 3th on the division 2 on ORCI only beaten by two First 45 and not for much, a little bit more than 2 hours for the class winner, Victoire that is a well of a boat and it is a chronic winner of that class on the Hobart.

Fact is that the First is probably more efficient with heavy weather upwind, it is a heavier boat with a bigger B/D ratio. If there was some light wind sailing evolved the story could be other. I guess that the best boat to win that class in that race is the new XP-44. I wonder why there was none racing.

Please ask your godson what was his impression about the boat and post it here. I would like to know his opinion and the way the boat performed.






Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Comet 31*

I have passed the new year's eve in Rome and among other things went to have a look at where the Romans keep their boats. Mostly they keep them out of the marina on the river banks, a really nice place and I found there this beauty:























































That's a brand new Comet 31 s, so new that they don't have yet pictures in their site

The boat is absolutely gorgeous one of those things you just want to have and I bet that it is a lot of fun to sail. Look at this specs:

Loa.	10,44 m
Hull lenght	9,74 m
beam	3,48 m
Draft	1,90 m
weight	3.900 Kg
ballast std	1.090 kg

Engine 20 hp
Diesel tank	45 lt
Water tank 170 lt

Sails
Main	32.80 m2
Genoa 108%	24.00 m2
Gennaker	85.00 m2

Comar Yachts	
CE
Category	B-A
Price	69.000,00 €

The numbers look as good as the boat. With 28% of B/D ratio but with all the weight on a bulb at 1.90m and a lot of form stability this small animal can carry a lot of sail and a geenaker with 85m2 for 3900kg is a lot of sail

This beauty should plane very easily: a delightful rocket sailboat that seems to have the potential for coastal cruising and the most amazing is that they say that the boat is certified for offshore work (RCD A category). On a light boat of this size that means a very well designed boat and a seaworthy boat for its size with good stability parameters.






I really like this one


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## PCP

Sly yachts are among the very exclusive group of sailboats that mix luxury with top performance sailing and they are among the best. A true Ferrari of the seas; exclusive boats for the very rich.

Well not anymore, now the less rich can also have a Sly:

They are making a 38ft with moderate beam (3.70), 2.30m draft for 5500kg of weight and 85m2 of sail area upwind.

It is going to be fast and beautiful as all Sly. Take a look:


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## PCP

nemier said:


> Hey Paulo,
> I shall save my Congratulations until the finance is in place, as you wish
> 
> .... For what it's worth, I believe you have made a great choice and you really can't go wrong with this boat (Salona 38) - well done Paulo!


Well, I have a sad announcement to made: I will not have that Salona 38

See Nemier, it gives bad luck to give congratulations before it happens.

Nothing to to with the Salona 38 or the guys from Salona that have been fantastic neither with the leasing concession but with the conditions.

Actually I have signed a leasing contract on the Paris boat show on the therms and conditions we have agreed almost a year ago, but it seems that on these days of crisis conditions are changing fast, not the ones that regards the leasing but the ones that regards tax.

I was taking advantage of a tax possibility they had with leasing: out of the EC waters I would not pay VAT on the leasing (23%). I was buying the boat directly to the Factory in Croatia (out of EC) VAT free and I would maintain the boat there with French flag till they enter to EC then would sail to Turquey and maintain the boat there. I could travel in any EC country for 6 months if I returned to out of EC before that.

As my program for the next 2 or 3 years is to know and sail on the Eastern Med that would suit me. I would pay the boat in 4 years and on the last months of the last year I would bring the boat to EC water, pay VAT on the last leasing and end up with a boat in my name with the VAT paid.

This has been made....till now Now it seems I cannot sail a single day on EC waters without paying the VAT and when I enter EC Waters I would have to pay VAT on the actual value of the boat that in 3 or 4 years would be about 150 000€.

That means not only that the boat would cost 30 000€ more than what I was prepared to pay but also that the boat could not sail in EC waters for any period of time without the VAT paid. That is a no deal since Croatia is going to enter EC next year and I could only sail in Turkish waters. I could not explore Greek Islands and cannot sail to açores, Madeira and Canarias as I want to.

I don't fell very bad with the Salona guys that were impecable and have developed a lot of modifications to do on the boat at my request because I know that I have helped to develop a better boat, even commercially and I know that because I talked with the French dealer (Paris boat show):

He wanted to know what were the modifications I had asked on the boat and after I have describe them to him he told me that he was asking for those same modifications without results and was completely baffled when I said that I had already the study designs made by Leo, the Salona house designer, of a nice carbon fixed bowsprit with an anchor roller and an anchor stand and the designs of a nice pair of integrated pods for the instruments. He didn't know nothing about it and was almost jumping with enthusiasm (a very nice guy, young and very enthusiastic).

So, anyway the Salona 38 would be the boat I would chose for the amount of money I had. If bought it know (at the beginning of the year) not only they would make me the boat I want as they would make me a nice discount. I have only good things to say about them.

But since I am short of 30 000€ I know I cannot find any new boat that can satisfy me and my sailing and cruising program and I am looking for a 2006/2007 used boat. I went to Roma, not only for the fun of the new year's eve but to see some boats. I almost bought one (I would not say the brand) that seemed almost perfect but unfortunately the hull moisture was over what should be expected and that was a no deal. But I have found very competent and nice guys that are helping me to find the boat I want, so if everything goes right there is a strong possibility that I will have a boat soon (I hope).

Guys, I am telling you all this because otherwise you would think that I am mad or that Salona would have not satisfied me. Well, I am a little mad, but nothing wrong with salona

....


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## PCP

And a beautiful boat, "Eilean", designed by William Fife III, a classic 1936 sailboat (movie by Yacht magazine):

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Hauptsache...an%26quot%3B/85457f03d1d602fd14c007b101fe2c4c

.....


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## axel

Dear Paulo
So sad to hear that you will not be buying the Salona after all. You have given us readers so much pleasure through this thread, and I am sure we all were happy for you because you seemed to have found the right boat for yourself. Too bad that it didn' work out!
Anyway, best of luck in your new hunt for a used boat. There are many interesting boats out there, as any reader of this thread knows And of course, looking for a new boat is exciting, so enjoy!
However, I didn't quite understand the tax problem. Is there any particular reason why you wanted to fly a French flag? Would the problem be solved if you gave the boat a Turkish flag? You might even choose to register the boat as belonging to my country, Norway, also outside of the EU. I believe you do not need to pay the Norwegian vat as long as the boat is not brought into the country.


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## PCP

Westsail 32










I guess everybody knows the boat that has a reputation of being a seaworthy boat. It is an old design and an heavy and slow boat and most of you are probably thinking why the hell I am talking here about this boat.

Well, I could not resist I want to share with you all an article that I have read on the "Yacht" magazine, that's about Tom Corogan an American sailor that with 84 years has failed (again) his sixth attempt to round the Horn. This time he broke the boat mast. Somebody should tell him to try on another boat

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/US-man-bails-on-7th-solo-try-to-round-Cape-Horn-2441149.php

Seriously the guy is a character, an experienced sailor that have sailed extensively his boat and has all my respect. I would like to be able to sail offshore solo with 84 years of age.










You can find the article here:

Seenotfall: 84-jähriger Einhandsegler gerettet - Panorama*|*YACHT.DE

or a full interview on the November issue of Latitudes 38

http://www.westsail.org/Resources/Documents/Articles/CoroganL38112011s.pdf


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## ccriders

So why don't you buy the boat in Florida, sail around the Carib for a few years then take it to your home waters? I understand there is no sales tax in Florida (smart move on their part) and annunal registration can't be more than a few hundred dollars a year. Carib moorings shouldn't be more expensive than Med moorings and travel will probably be a wash. 
Also, does paying the VAT immediately upon entry in Eurozone apply to USCG documented vessels? 
Also, buy it without sails and equipment to establish purchase basis then add all the toys later at six to eight percent sales tax or over the internet and no sales tax.
I'm not a tax lawyer, or lawyer of any type and my advice might get you in trouble with the tax man, but if you really love that boat then there must be some way to defer the VAT.
Go talk to a tax man.
I've enjoyed this thread immensly, thanks.
John


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## Melrna

There is a 6% sale tax in Florida up to $3000,000 boat ($18,000) in taxes. So I am not so sure that will work. In NC there is no sales tax on a used boat I believe. If the Florida law changed on Jan 1st that would be great because I am in the boat buying mode right now and like Paulo my budget is busted because of the sales tax in Florida on a new boat.


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## bb74

Lease it in France and save half the VAT if you have it outside of EU waters for half the time. Fixes half the problem although I don't know what interest rates are looking like on boats these days.

Then rent it out a few weeks to some friends / family the first 2 or 3 years and you can recoup the 15K€ difference over time pretty easily. As long as they are good sailors, no problem.

If you really want it, you know you can find a solution.


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## PCP

bb74 said:


> Lease it in France and save half the VAT if you have it outside of EU waters for half the time. Fixes half the problem although I don't know what interest rates are looking like on boats these days.
> 
> Then rent it out a few weeks to some friends / family the first 2 or 3 years and you can recoup the 15K€ difference over time pretty easily. As long as they are good sailors, no problem.
> 
> If you really want it, you know you can find a solution.


Not really. I know everything about French leasing, I even had one signed at the Paris boat show but you probably don't know that the rules are going to change this year (it is already on EC law).

If you are a French it is like that, you will only pay 50% of VAT on the leasing and that means that you can pay the boat in 6 years have the VAT paid and have a boat for a slightly inferior price of what you would get it if you buy the boat immediately to a dealer and paid the VAT at that time.

Unfortunately that is going to change at the end of this year for the ones that are not French (or Italian in the case of the similar Italian leasing) and the fiscal regime that will be applied will not be the one from the leasing company but the one from the client's country, I mean the one that is paying leasing (the future owner of the boat). That means that I will only pay 50% VAT on 12 rents but I will have to pay 100% VAT on 30 rents.

You are lucky, you are French, take advantage on that while you can because I don't think it will last long

And regarding charter the boat, well that is nice with friends till you start to ask them some money...then it is not nice anymore and I have no disposition for charting unless I really have too. I prefer a 4 or 5 years's old boat to having a new boat and have to do charter it.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Today I will propose you a comparison between two great boats, yes they are great and at BIG, the Halberg Rassy 64 that is nominated for the European boat of the year and the Comet 62, a big brother from the 31 that I have posted some posts back.

The Comet 62 is a 4 year old boat but has not a wrinkle and even looks more modern than the HR 64 that is a nice boat. Well, the HR 64 is a nice boat, the Comet 62 is gorgeous boat, about the same difference between a nice house keeper (I mean a wife) and a top model, if you know what I mean.

The boats were both tested last year by Yachtworld magazine and it was not a comparative test since both boats will appeal to different kinds of sailors.

Both testers were, a lady and a guy, were very impressed with the boats that each one tested.

First, the *HR 64*:






The tester was alone in the boat with Magnus Rassy and could verify what Rassy had told her: That the boat was designed to be easily sailed by a couple.

On demanding conditions with 21 to 23K wind she said:

*"As easy to sail as a small boat...with push button controls...it is so easy using buttons at the binnacle that you can play the mainsheet like a dinghy" *

She was very impressed with the overall quality of the boat.

The boat is fast too and on a reach they have made between 9.5K and 10K.

The *Comet 62RS*:






The tester said:

*"I come away impressed with the Comet 62RS...it would be hard to tire of her lines...the quality of her build becomes obvious when you sail her. Her fittings are...oversized which boosts confidence.

She proved rewarding and powerful with a good turn of speed and a comfortable cruising motion. ..The Italian yard...injects character, soul and quality into their boats."*

The boat has the 4 winches around the wheel, two back and two forward to permit short crew sailing and they are electric.

With 9/12K wind the boat made 7.5K at 23º/27º apparent wind and 8.5/9K at 25º apparent wind with 20K wind.

The owner apologized about the hull being dirty and said that in normal conditions with a clean hull the boat would be a knot faster.

..............................................................................................................................

These hull profiles and stability curves show all the difference between both boats in what regards power and sailing:




























These small graphics were taken from YachtingWorld magazine (I hope they don't mind) and you can find there the complete tests. They have the magazine on line on Zinio and you can find the Halberg Rassy test on the 2011 Setember issue and the Comet test on the July 2011 issue.

...


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## PCP

First movies and boat tests with the new Jeanneau 509, a fast cruiser with a fantastic interior, a true house boat:











And the video from the boat test on Yacht magazine. The ones really interested on the boat should read the test on the last number of yacht magazine.

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Neues-Flaggschiff-Sun-Odyssey-509/3a5aa39a66ef27b9897600c0c2abc975

....


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## PCP

THEY HAVE MADE IT!!!!

New world record on the circumnavigation time:

45 days 13 hours 42 minutes 53 minutes.

Loïck Peyron and his team own the Jules Verne trophy and they were a lot faster than Jules Verne.

They have made 29 002 Nm at the incredible *average speed of 26,51 K *


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## PCP

For the ones that are not following closely the Volvo race, this fantastic video with great images of the finish of 2º leg on Abu Dhabi:






The Volvos are really beautiful boats, a bit wet to my taste


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## PCP

And talking about Abu Dhabi it is appropriated talk about Dhows, a Generic name for different types of boats that have in common having latin sails and be part of the Arabic or Muslim heritage. Some where heavily influenced by the Portuguese Caravel that dominated those seas on the XVI century.

The Traditional Dhow

Nabataea: Maritime

http://catnaps.org/islamic/boats.html

Fortunately there as been a renaissance of interest on these boats on the Emirates and they are used for racing. Beautiful boats and on its racing versions, fast boats. Have a look:


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## PCP

And how about this?










Provisional Itinerary | Capehornrace

It will stick?

It can be very interesting










*"The race round Cape Horn Island constitutes a « race within a race » with its own prologue from Ushuaia to the Cape, and its own epilogue from the Horn to Port Williams. The first edition of the event starts at Saint Tropez with stoppover ports in Argentine, Brazil, Chile and Spain. In total, the race route comprises 6 legs, 6 stoppover ports, during a period of 6 months. The competiton is open to all monophull yachts between 47 and 75 feet (14.3 and 23 m): an IRC handicap race, which allows all teams to compete equally, whether they are onboard a producton, charter, or racing yacht. Throughout 15,000 nautical miles of ocean challenge, the ﬂeet will be tracked by satellite. In accordance with IRC rules, the fastest yacht on corrected time, wins."*

....


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## PCP

New boat to be presented in Dusseldorf, an Italian one, the Iy 13.98, a Maurizio Cossutti design, a boat with beautiful classic lines, a very well constructed and fast boat.

Made with e-glass and vinilester resins with a cored hull, the boat is light (8950kg) and has a big B/D ratio, if we consider that it has a torpedo keel with 3100kg at 25m draft. Considering that the boat has a moderated beam (4.30m) that would make it very very stiff and with 124 m2 of sail this boat should go upwind like an arrow. It also was a geenaker that could be used on a broad reach and if we consider the sail area of the boat in that configuration (226 m2), this boat would need only 4K of wind to go fast.

I would definitively call this one an interesting sailboat























































They say about the boat:

Italia 13.98 resumes and extends the design philosophy introduced with the first model of the yard. *Italia 13.98 is therefore a real luxury yacht where technology and performances meet, looking for a blend between classic and modern lines.

Performances and easy handling are in the DNA of the boats designed by Italia Yachts as well as the search for maximum comfort on board and the rationality of the use of space above and below deck.*

Interiors of Italia 13.98 are luxurious with wide use of teak and precious materials. The layout has three comfortable cabins and two bathrooms, one with separate shower.

The whole environment is characterized by intense brightness provided by many openable skylights an hull side windows that can be blacked out.

Stowage spaces both in owner's bow cabin than in the two aft cabins are spacious and comfortable.


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## PCP

Do you know where is the best place to find interesting sailboats (besides this thread)?

Dusseldorf boat show, without any doubt. If you have never been there you could not imagine the size.

I an posting about this because the boat show is this month *between 21 and 29 of this month*. You will find there dealers from all the world including America and that's probably the place where you can get a better deal on a new boat.

What you are going to gain with special boat show prices will vastly compensates the price of the voyage and that is probably also true for charting where the prices can go till 20% under what you can manage on the net.

Besides Dusseldorf is a very nice place with great food and a brewery that makes beer on the spot and has a terrific ambiance (kind of 30's if you know what I mean). It is the German city with highest living standards and German standards are not low. A lovely city in the center of Europe with excellent fast railway connections to many big European cities. That's why the world's biggest boat show is there in first place.

After the first time I was there at almost 10 years ago I returned almost every year. I am not going this year and I am already missing it

Just to give you an idea:

*.... 1,600 exhibitors from over 50 countries will be presenting their innovations for the coming season in 17 Düsseldorf exhibition halls from 21 to 29 January 2012 - from fishing rods right through to luxurious large yachts....

International and unrivalled for boats and yachts Messe Düsseldorf expects some 650 foreign participations at boot 2012. This means more than one in three exhibitors will come from abroad...An unrivalled international array of boats with 1,700 types of all sizes spreads over eleven exhibition halls. ..

Boot Düsseldorf is a must for yachtsmen! Halls 16 and 17 await them with a top-notch range of sailing boats and yachts presented by 150 exhibitors.

Particularly positive is the trend in the small yet refined, special segment of catamarans and trimarans which were given their own separate, dedicated platform in Hall 15 last year. The concept went down so well that many exhibitors have decided to extend their presentations at boot 2012, i.e. they now wish to bring their boats rather than information stands to Düsseldorf. 15 suppliers in Hall 15 will be covering all aspects of the popular multi-hull sailing.*

*Probably you will not find all the sailing boats there, but this will give you an idea:*

boot 2012 - Sailing Boats & Yachts

Some movies from last year's edition:

Guten Tag, Düsseldorf ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles











If you go buy the tickets on line. The tickets includes a free transport title for the city public transport service (for the day).

.......


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## PCP

Well, If you are like me dreaming with cruising, this photo montage (from Yacht Magazine) give you good suggestions, with very nice pictures and even if you don't understand German they show some maps. Really nice suggestions on the Liguria coast, North of Rome till Genova, in Italy. Enjoy

http://www.yacht.de/reise/audio_slideshows/liguriens-kueste-ohne-rummel/a62565.html

,,


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## PCP

PCP said:


> THEY HAVE MADE IT!!!!
> 
> New world record on the circumnavigation time:
> 
> 45 days 13 hours 42 minutes 53 minutes.
> 
> Loïck Peyron and his team own the Jules Verne trophy and they were a lot faster than Jules Verne.
> 
> They have made 29 002 Nm at the incredible *average speed of 26,51 K *


The finish: look at that well deserved joy.

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/cou...banque-populaire-v-un-record-charge-demotion/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...am-smashes-world-circumnavigation-record.html

.....


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## PCP

I know this is a bit out of the scope of the thread but I have been enjoying this and I want to share. Actually I think that it is a great help to study a cruising voyage on those regions and even if it is in German some will understand and even if not, they show the maps and the places so it is self explanatory (from the "Yacht" magazine:

Cyclades:

http://www.yacht.de/reise/audio_slideshows/das-glanzstueck-der-kykladen/a61139.html

Virgin Islands:

http://www.yacht.de/reise/audio_slideshows/relaxen-auf-den-jungferninseln/a67463.html

Thailand:

http://www.yacht.de/reise/audio_slideshows/reviere-aus-einem-neuen-blickwinkel/a51997.html

..


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## PCP

After the Swedestar 370 a new Swedestar 415 is coming. They are going to have the 370 on Dusseldorf and presenting the 415 project.

The Swedestar is not much of a looker, well it is very nice, well made but it don't looks a new model. It is as classic as it can be. The boat has not an open transom, only one wheel and the profile looks classic not to say some year's old. So what makes it so special that the market had given clear signs that wanted a boat like the 370 but bigger?

Well, it has Swedish quality (and price) it is more narrow than most the competition, as an huge B/D (42% on a bulbed keel) and lot's of sail. It is a very fast performance cruiser and its looks are deceiving, I mean it looks luxurious classic and slow. Well luxurious it is, slow it is not

YachtingMonthly tested the the boat in 2010:






They have give it 9 points out of 10 in performance, helm feeling, chart table and galley quality and an overall 8 point classification (out of 10) that is quite good for their standards.

They have said:

*The Swedestar 370 makes an impressive début. The quality of craftsmanship is up to Swedish standards and the mahogany is beautifully finished, but she needs a few refinements to justify her place in the luxury bracket. The conventional deck layout works well and the helm feels fabulous.

I feel she's too thoroughbred for cruising. The sailplan is huge and the boat is light so, despite a decent ballast ratio, you'll be reefing in anything over a Force 3. For most of us, the cruiser-racer balance here is skewed too far towards performance.*

Swedestar 370 | Single Hull Boat Reviews | Yachting Monthly | Single-Hull Boat Reviews | Yachting Monthly

This gives you an idea of what the 415 is going to be, narrow as its small sister (3.75m of beam to 12.61m over all) it will have a lot of ballast and considering that it will not be heavy with 8000kg. 92.5 m2 of sail on a narrow hull will make it a fast boat with a great interior with classic looks. If you have more than 350 000€ to give for a 41ft boat, like classic looks and fast boats, this could be an interesting one.


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## PCP

A new walkabout, even lighter. If the boat is strong enough this will be a very interesting boat, the 37 Med:

Main Dimension:	
Lenght Overall 
11,68 m
Hull Lenght
11,00 m
Lenght at Waterline	10,80 m
Maximum Beam	4,00 m
Draught	2,15 m
Keel weight	1600kg
Light Displacement	3700 kg
Sail Plan
Sail surface	80 mq
Engine
Yanmar	22 Hp
Architect	David Reard
Technical data
Keel weight / Displacement 43.3 %

A very light boat with a huge B/D ratio and a lot of sail for such a light boat (3700kg for 80m2).



















They say about the boat:

*A new lightweight 37-feet designed for fast and safe navigation in the Mediterranean and for offshore race.

The hull is made in a sandwich composite (multi-axial glass fabric / PVC / multi-axial glass fabric epoxy laminates) and with round bottom and a single edge.

It is possible to install 2 ballast to improve upwind performance and have a retractable keel to reduce the draft.
*

This is a kind of Italian Pogo, even lighter (the 37 has the same weight of the Pogo 10.50, that is a 35ft boat) with better interiors. It is not too light? I don't know, the Pogo is not made with epoxy resin, this one is and that should make this one 500/800kg lighter, but even so It seems a miracle to me.

The same boat (37) on its "Voyage" version has 4896 kg. That seems a more realistic number. 1200kg between the two versions seems too much.

This is a test sail by SoloVela (Italian Sail magazine) of the WALKABOUT 43, the bigger sister. He have already talked about this one. It has a nice interior for this kind of boat.


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## PCP

Some Days ago when I was in Fumicino taking photos of that Comet 31 (that I posted recently) I meet Andrea from Comar Yachts that seeing me interested in the boat asked me if I wanted to take a look at the shipyard (Comet is made by Comar).

Well some ladies like to look at window shops, I like to look at boats and boat shipyards so I jumped into the opportunity. Comar shipyard is big and very latin, I mean nothing of the Nordic military efficiency, here they work with what seems to be a comfortable disorganization

What I found more unusual was the huge variety of boats being made: Some small one class racers, some 35fters, some big boats between 50 and 60ft and a really big 85ft, this one for the Italian navy (lucky cadets). The boats are built with great care but almost fully customized, made by hand and they make practically everything there without almost no resourcing to outside services. That explains the very good quality of their boats but also their price, that is a bit higher than mass production boats but even so not as expensive at Nordic boats.

I found out that they also use an internal steel reinforcement grid where the keel and shrouds are connected but instead of being glued to the hull it is completely stratified inside the hull. They use vacuum bagged cored hulls (with airex on the core), vinilester or epoxy resins and some boats are made completely in carbon, including the big ones.

They seem to have the ability to build anything regardless of the size or material, providing it is a composite. I guess they will end up giving up building small boats and that they will focus on really big boats like many companies that work with top quality and customize their boats. There is little profit in custom small boats and a lot more on big boats.

While they still make small boats (I have already posted about a 38ft) let's have a look at one of the most recent, the Comet 35s, a kind of First 35 with Italian flair:






































They say about the boat:

*From the hull to the carpentry, from the flush hatches to the steel, most of the components you will find on your COMET have been custom-made in-house. The hull and deck are made in Airex sandwich, using unidirectional and biaxial web and epoxy vinyl resin. Airex is glued to the skins in a vacuum and the reinforcements are stratified directly on the hull, without using female moulds, thereby obtaining maximum structural rigidity.

The Comet 35's standard layout comes with 2 cabins both with comfortable double-berths, large closets and a large head. The saloon, with a large convertible couch and a second sofa in front of it, is very bright thanks to the extensive windows and four skylights. The dinette offers ample storage space, with an L shaped galley to the right of the ladder, well equipped with a large working area, in front of the chart table. The finishings are in solid and laminated American cherry wood, ensuring a modern and welcoming ambiance.

The objective of the small Comar Yacht cabin cruiser is to maintain the full range concept: modern lines, excellent seaworthiness and the top notch livability. A challenge that becomes more interesting in small sizes. The cruiser vocation of the Comet 35, becomes pure racing fun and in both instances the hull stability allows seamless boat management even with a reduced crew. By reinterpreting the sleek and well balanced lines typical of the Sports Comar range, even in the 35 we can recognize the harmony of the deck where the deck house, well integrated with the hull lines, offers excellent interior livability.*

Specification:

Lenght overall	11,05 m
Hull lenght	10,65 m
Waterline lenght	9,21 m
Beam	3,64 m
Draft 2.10m
Std. Ballast	1.600 Kg
Displacement 5.500kg
Mainsail	40,00 mq
Genoa	40,00 mq
Spinnaker	93,00 mq

5500kg isn't bad for a 35ft and 80m2 is a lot of sail for the weight. The boat has a lot of form stability and those 1600kg are a on an elongated lead torpedo and both things put together make this a stiff boat. A stiff boat with lot's of sail for the weight makes a fast boat.

On the test sail from "Vela e Motore" they measured with 18K wind:

45º-6.5K....60º-7.6K....90º-8.2K....135-7.6K....150-7.1K

The interiors are of very good quality and the design is refreshing.

The boat costs a bit more than 120 000€ at the shipyard and I would say that is not too much for what is offered.

...


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## PCP

For the ones that have a sailboat mostly to have fun racing and besides that mostly for day sail the boat, this is a great proposal at half the price and many times the sailing fun: The SeaCart 26


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## PCP

Of course, that would not have the charme of a wally, but will go at the same speed or faster and the crew would have much more fun.

Talking about Wally and rich men with good taste have a look ar these animals (the boats, not the men):


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## PCP

Look at this beauty:


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## PCP

Modern boats designed with a classic look are one of the trends of today's design. Compromises are made in what regards sail performance, usualy in what concerns LWL regarding LOA but most of these modern classic looking boats are very light, have modern bulbed keels, modern spade ruder and a hulls with not much rocker.

They are intended to be fast, very pleasurable boats to sail and sailing pleasure would not be the only pleasure they would deliver: These boats that will make any owner proud. These are boats that will never look old, boats to cherish and to keep as a art work and of course as any work of art, design is of paramount importance.

Bob Perry designed recently one, a beautiful narrow 62ft and contrary of what is usual on these boats, have managed to maintain the classic flavor, without a big loss of LWL regarding the boat LOA. The hull seems very well designed and looks very neat and the ruder and keel are thoroughly modern.



















The keel is particularly interesting, a steel hollow structure that will function has a diesel tank and an integrated torpedo that will not get stuck on fishing lines. The ruder is also high tech and a carbon one.

Of course a boat like this should have a carbon rig and this one will have one , the one used on the Farr 40. I hope rod is used to keep in mind with the rest.

The boat hull will be made in Cedar strip planking The hull with cedar and after sheathed in Vectorply E-TLX 2400-10 triaxial cloth. The deck would be made of composite.

Cedar strip planking give very strong and light hulls and this one will only weight about 18 000 lb. With that weight it should be a very strong hull.










The boat would have a huge sail area (978 m2) for the weigh and that with the very low drag of this boat and big LWL will make it a very fast boat and a boat that would sail well in very weak wind, I would say with any wind.

Of course with such a narrow hull and a canoe stern this boat would have to rely for stability mostly on its ballast and it has lot's of it, almost 50% of its weight and all in a lead bulb on the end of a long keel. This boat will have a lot of righting moment but will sail heeled with any consequent wind. Not a problem for me I like heel. The boat will probably heel easily to 20º and will be rock solid and very stiff after that.










This is a very interesting boat and I guess it will be on the vast Bob Perry curriculum as one to be remembered, a boat which design will never get old. That is a desire of any designer: to make a work of art that will remain as a legacy for the future and I believe that will be the case. I only hope the finish and the interior to be up with the quality of the sailboat design.

To know more about the boat:

Yacht Design According to Perry


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## PCP

Look at this incredible sail machine!!!

As fun as a powerful dirt bike on hard sand


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## PCP

New Sirius 40: The boat plans will be shown in Dusseldorf.

A Sirius 40 will have all the space needed to live aboard. As most of you know these boats have an incredible detailed interior with the best quality I know or saw in sailboats. I am sure it will be an incredible boat.

Pity that the cabin on this Marc-Oliver von Ahlen design seems just a bit too high on what otherwise I find a nice looking boat.


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## PCP

This edition is particularly good since it has the best of 2011 (after the VOR). Don't miss it


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## PCP

I have already posted about the fantastic circumnavigation record by Loick Peiron and his team but the movie in HD that yacht magazine has posted is so much better that it deserves to have a new look: Beautiful boat, great images.

Der Sieg der "Banque Populaire V" - Yacht TV

and since we are talking about great images of offshore trimarans I believe most of you don't know this movie that is one of my favorites: Big ocean racing trimarans flying over heavy seas!!!!. No space for error here. Look at that guy that goes to the bow. It is not practical to wear an harness on a big multihulls (too much space) and I don't think he is wearing one. Jesus you have to be mad or have a huge confidence and gigantic balls





...


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## PCP

There is a new racer cruiser class box rule for serious racers, an all carbon fast boat, a big one with 100ft

Well, we would expect a carbon racer to have a pretty poor interior, just the needed for racing but not this one. *The minimum racer-cruiser interior fit out would comprise of:

Owners en-suite cabin with queen size double.
Two guest cabins with split beds that give the option of singles or doubles.
Additional pullman berths in each of these cabins would be an option if racing offshore.
A large saloon split into a separate lounge and dining area.
Galley to port with rule minimum, 3 hob stove, oven, fridge and freezer.
Chart table with day head to starboard.

The crew area is spacious, but it can be fitted out using lighter materials and methodology than the guest areas and it comprises part of the accommodation requirements of the rule. There is one en-suite cabin with two bunks and an allowance for pipe cots if additional crew is required for cruising or if racing offshore.*

This is the design program and you are already thinking, this is no race boat. Well, look at the first one:

Green Marine - Southampton - Wally Cento : 100 pieds, 100% Wally - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles

And look at all this carbon interiors:














































*Of course, it could only be a wally, the Wally Cento* the design is from judel-vrolijk and it will be made by Wally.


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## PCP

I bet this boat is going to be a huge sucess




























The new Pogo 30

With a LOA of 9.14 meters and a Beam with 3.70 meters the Pogo will be a class A boat (offshore) and can have have a fixed keel or a swinging keel.

It should have plenty space inside and it will be fast as all the Pogos.

It will cost around 80,000 euros - not including shipping and sails.






Usinage Maquette Pogo 30 from Pogo Structures on Vimeo.


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## PCP

This is a great movie about the Volvo Ocean Race: Great images, the first 40 years






And this is this year's edition with the Abu Dhabi in port race:


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## PCP

yachting World magazine is presenting a serie of movies about advancing sailing techniques. The first one is about Chinese gybe:

New Advanced Sailing Techniques series with Pip Hare | Yacht News | Yachting World


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## G1000

Team Russia Chinese Gybe - VOLVO OCEAN RACE 2008/9 - YouTube


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## PCP

Some guys have said that they had learned something on this thread about boats. I am happy and proud with that.

Regarding that shared knowledge I have posted a generic post on another thread that I think can contribute to those global better view of cruising sailboats and I will post it here too:

*Any sailing boat is also a sports machine unless you chose not to use it like that and stay in port when you can have fun with the boat.

Sailboats are slow if you compare them with a car and a car is slow if compared with an airplane but the sensations you can get on a sailboat are not with accordance with that slowness, the same way you can have much more vivid sensations in a car comparing with an airplane that is way faster.

Between sailboats a 1K difference is a lot and you can say that is nothing but that is not what is more important between a performance cruiser and a modern cruiser sailboat it is the sensation and precision you have at the wheel.

The sensation you got at the wheel of a light sports car has nothing to do with the sensation you have at the wheel of a modern turbo diesel sedan even if the two can go at the same speed in the straight line (and on the boats the performance one will be faster). While on the sports cars you put the car exactly where you want it with a minimum effort, on the Diesel sedan, is more or less. Of course, all that precision calls for an experienced driver to take advantage of it.

That's about the difference you have in what regards steering between a modern cruiser and a good performance cruiser. Now that the boats have a two wheel set up the differences are even more noticeable. The two wheel set up takes sensibility to the wheel and to compensate that there is needed a top ruder system, not only stronger but with a very low friction.

When you go out downwind at 10k (I hope it would be more in my next boat) with 25/30K wind surfing two meter waves that come slightly sideways you have about the same sensation at the wheel as when going fast on a twisting dirt road with a powerful car or bike: You have to have the wheel in constant motion to control the slides, you know, just like in a car, before it happens you have to compensate and before the slide finishes you have to have the wheel strait again.

The sensation you have in a boat on these conditions are not very different from the ones you have in a car going fast with the additional pleasure of controlling 8T with the tip of your fingers. I guess you will understand by this the importance of having a very sensitive steering.

The difference between a more sportive boat and a heavy boat here can be very important: While on this conditions a lighter sportive boat maintains a very light steering a heavy cruising boat can be hard on the wheel and what is a pleasure on a fast boat can turn up in a muscular tiring effort on a heavy boat, not to mention the much bigger control a sensitive wheel gives.

And if you think this are not very frequent conditions, well in what regards coastal cruising they are not but in what regards crossing oceans in the trade winds they are.

Another similarity I found is with my old racing dirt bike, I mean when you are powering upwind full sails on 18/20K wind. My boat could go at 7K sometimes jumping 3m waves crashing down and most of the time just breaking them, water flowing all around, in a very powerful and bumpy ride. The power that the boat is making on these conditions is huge and you can feel it at the wheel. Lots of work with the wheel to prevent the boat to slam and not to lose speed, keeping that power and speed up.

After some hours of this I was always amazed to find an intact interior. It is just wonderful that a cruising boat can take this kind of punishment without the interior coming apart.

A good cruising sailing boat is two things, a caravan and a sports machine. There are ones that are more a caravan others that are more a sports machine. For some sailors the sportive part is completely irrelevant, they only want a sea caravan, others only wanted fast cruising boats for racing.

For the ones that like sports and want also a sea caravan for the family the trick is too chose the right combination between interior space and sailing performance and regarding this you can be sure of one thing: The boat that you will see at the boat show with the bigger and nicer interior will not be the best sailing boat, specially in what concerns the space on the front cabin. 
*

...


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## PCP

I am a fan of New Zealand boat designers, boat builders and top sailors and now also a fan of sailing research in what regards sails and sailing. It is just amazing the contribution that this small country has done to modern boat design and sailing.

Linked to the Auckland University they run a Yacht research unit that is producing some great work that is already used by some of the VOR boats. Take a look:


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## opc11

Paulo,

Regarding that kite boat.... I think it would really be interesting if they created a one person monohul, almost like a kayak, with pedals to control the rudder. Can you imagine how fast and easy it would be to get air? Similar to kite boarding. 

Regards,


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## PCP

Sometimes Italians are too much. Recently they have presented a 42ft daysaylor. A nice one made by Sly and certainly a lot of fun to sail....but 42ft?











Well, it seems they have a market for that because Brenta has a 52ft Daysailer .

That's a very nice and fast boat but a 52 ft daysailer?????


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## PCP

Britannia is back!!!

The return of the old lady:

The boat that won more races in sailboat historyt is back, at least a faithful replica. Came on, do you think I am exaggerating about the victories? *The boat won 231 races and stayed competitive for about 30 years!!!*





































The story:

*..George Lennox Watson received a commission from Prince Albert Edward for a sailing yacht in 1892. He designed His Royal Highness' Yacht Britannia to the "Length And Sail Area Rule" as a First Class cutter .. She was launched on April 20, 1893&#8230;

By the end of her first year's racing, the Britannia had scored thirty-three wins from forty-three starts. In her second season, she won all seven races for the big class yachts on the French Riviera, and then beat the 1893 America's Cup defender Vigilant in home waters.

Despite a lull in big yacht racing after 1897, the Britannia served as a trial horse for Sir Thomas Lipton's challenger Shamrock I, and later passed on to several owners in a cruising trim with raised bulwarks. In 1920, King George V triggered the revival of the "Big Class" by announcing that he would refit the Britannia for racing. Although the Britannia was the oldest yacht in the circuit, regular updates to her rig kept her a most successful racer throughout the 1920s.

In 1931, she was converted to the J-Class with a bermuda rig, but despite the improvements, her performance to windward slopped dramatically. Her last race was at Cowes in 1935. During her racing career she had won 231 races and took another 129 flags.

King George V's dying wish was for his beloved yacht to follow him to the grave. On 10 July 1936, after the Britannia had been stripped of her spars and fittings, her hull was towed out to St Catherines Deep near the Isle of Wight, and she was sunk by HMS Winchester (L55), commanded by Captain W.N.T. Beckett RN. This fate marked the end of big yacht racing in Europe, with the smaller and more affordable International Rule 12-Metre Class gaining popularity.

A new replica of the Britannia was built Russia in from 1993 to 2009, and after legal problems in securing her release from her Russian shipyard,[2] she was shipped to Norway and subsequently sold to a foundation in Cowes that will finish and rig the yacht.
*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMY_Britannia_(Royal_Cutter_Yacht)

*This is the replica:*

http://nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/troms_og_finnmark/1.6707367

And this is the replica story:

The strange case of the stranded royal yacht | Cruising News

...


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## PCP

Look at this baby:




























The aim of this foiler is to fly at over 40K easily. I mean for you me and everybody with some sailing experience. The foils position and angle are computer controlled.

They are presenting the project at Dusseldorf boat show and extensive testing will follow in Spring.

The boat is not just a speed test project but is intended to be produced and offered on the market. The boat has places for two.

They intend to continue developing the concept and after the two place boat develop an offshore big one, to steal the record from the Hydroptere.

I will be following this one. There is a strong team of engineers behind it and it promises interesting developments: Half airplane, half boat a flier low above the water. I like it


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## PCP

Beautiful Dhow race. It was filmed and used by the VOR for marketing and that's all right because we got this wonderful video, but it is irrelevant to the race popularity.

The prize money for the winner is $ 1 000 000. No wonder that they got so many boats racing


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## PCP

A new Southerly, the 420, that comes to replace the 42DS. Lots of space for a 42 ft boat, a truly great interior for living aboard, but an uglier boat, I mean in what regards the outside looks:

This one is a center cockpit boat and that means lot's of space on an aft cabin but also a high freeboard boat, too high in my opinion to make it a nice looking boat.

The other one, the 42 DS was a truly decksaloon, not this one that has a lower saloon. That permits a bigger saloon, but with limited views.

I guess that most people would gladly change the better outside views and a better looking boat for a bigger and very nice interior. The new 420 has certainly a bigger interior than the old 42DS and a very nice one.


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## PCP

New test on the Salona 38 by the German magazine "Yacht" and they have tested it in heavy weather....They have liked the boat specially in what concerns sailing qualities and quality/price.









(this photo was not from this test where only two sailed the boat, but a nice photo taken when Dean Barker test sailed the boat).

Yacht magazine has said about the Salona 38:

*The new performance cruiser from Croatia scores not only with safe handling in the wave crests in Barcelona, but also with good adaptability to racing and cruising. This 38ft is an interesting and economical alternative to X-Yachts, Solaris and Co.
*

*Movie:*

Neue Salona 38 im Schwerwettertest - Yacht TV

The last number of Yacht seems to be great in what boat testing is concerned and not only. On the same issue they tested the Salona 38, the Astus 18, the Archambault 34 (A34) the Sun Odyssey 44, the Amel 55 and still manage to have space for an article about Danish boats (on the front page a Luffe 45).

http://www.yacht.de/fileadmin/user_upload/heft_info/titel03_2012.jpg

....


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## PCP

The new Kiwi 40 FC ia an absolutely gorgeous boat. That is a NZ 40 class racer designed by Farr but it is a different class 40 because it is a more all around boast.

It is designed to to do well also on fleet crewed racing, or ocean racing out of the trades winds, the Sydney Hobart for instance. I am very curious to see how the boat will perform on both fields.

They are selling boats to Europe and to US and that means that there are a lot of sailors interested. They have also plans to develop a cruiser racer. Take a look at this hot boat:


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## PCP

First photos of the Bavaria vision 46, presented at Dusseldorf boat show, posted by Yacht magazine: The boat looks elegant and the hull seems slick. The interior is much more modern than on the last Vision and has space everywhere. The boat seems bigger than a 46 ft. The storage space is huge. This one would give a good boat to live aboard.


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## EricKLYC

The first 2012 edition of the German magazine Yacht presented the new Salona 35. Not yet a test, just a preview because the first boat will now only be presented in Düsseldorf. But their first analysis looks very nice (own translation, sorry for any inaccuracy):

The new Salona 35 replaces the 34 and J&J Designs have thoroughly reshaped their own design from 2008. Visual and conceptual changes have been made following the Salona 38 presented last summer, such as long roof windows and square ports in the hull. 
Compared to the previous model the cockpit is more clearly structured and the main traveler is built in a sink. The transom is left open, with a bridged seat that secures the cockpit at sea and can serve as a gangway when moored. The twin wheels are a particular feature on this size of boat. The rig is traditional, with chain plates built inwards near the roof and strains brought to the hull structure internally. This makes it possible to use overlapping foresails up to 140%. 
As in all Salona’s, strains are brought to a steel frame that is laminated into the hull. Therefore the Croatians now use carbon fibers. 
Below decks also the 35 has a traditional lay-out, with two separated cabins, one heads compartment and a symmetrically shaped saloon. It is very similar to the former 34 but the designers have made a great effort concerning looks and attractive feel. The Salona 35 should be available at an attractive standard price of € 118.400.

Referring to Paulo’s experience with the design and build quality of Salona, I think this 35 may become a big success. For those who dislike the beamy “open” type of hull shapes and/or prefer overlapping foresails instead of a big fathead main, I think Salona may have hit the bull’s eye once again. 

Kind regards,

Eric


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## PCP

Thanks Eric. while we wait that someone post online the first pictures of the Salona 35 that as you say has been presented in Dusseldorf, Yacht Magazine has posted some photos of the new Hanse 415:




























The Hull looks smart and the cockpit looks great. It is a pity that table that seems too big for the cockpit (when folded). The boat has an interesting approach in what regards rigging with the four winches on the cockpit near the man at the wheel, instead of two near and two over the cabin. Seems an interesting solution. That massive bomb on the keel would also be nicer if smaller I mean if lead was used instead of iron. Maybe it can be done was an option.




























The interior, well, it is a deception: It is a Hanse Ikea type interior, I would say, as expected. I don't understand why they don't hire a good professional team to design a modern good looking interior. The French with a similar quality are miles away in what refers looks and design.

This one Is even more odd than the others: Why in the hell they put the outside view (port window) on the galley? It would not make more sense to put them on the saloon?

Regards

Paulo


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## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> The interior, well, it is a deception: It is a Hanse Ikea type interior, I would say, as expected. I don't understand why they don't hire a good professional team to design a modern good looking interior. The French with a similar quality are miles away in what refers looks and design.
> 
> This one Is even more odd than the others: Why in the hell they put the outside view (port window) on the galley? It would not make more sense to put them on the saloon?


I agree. The hull port is in the wrong place. The dark, vertical wood grains not only make the interior look cheap, they also shorten it visually.

Also on deck, carbon wheels suggest this boat is supposed to be used for sailing. But any sailor knows the big stand-alone display on the cockpit table will only be useful to watch TV in the harbour. It will not survive the first day of sailing in any but the lightest conditions.

I think Hanse needs a lot more coaching from their Dehler crew...

Best regards,

Eric


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## PCP

Two movies on the Dusseldorf Boat show, one with the Hanse 415 other with the Bavaria Vision 46:


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## PCP

The main competition for the Bavaria 46 will come probably from Jeanneau and his Ds line.

Yacht magazine has tested the Sun Odyssey 44ds (you can download the test), *here is the movie*:

Die Deckssalonyacht mit der Augenbraue - Yacht TV

Well, the boat has a great aft cabin but is that enough to chose it over the SO 439? The 439 has the same hull is a nicer looking boat has less windage a more sportive rig and his an overall better balanced boat. Well it is, if you let your wife chose the boat


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## HMoll

Is it fair to say that the term "deck saloon" has been misused by brands such as Jeanneau and Hunter? The latest Jeanneau is just a big eyebrow, and same hull? To me, d.s. and pilothouses have the design characteristic of being able to stand (galleys) or even sit (dinettes, nav stations) looking above deck and forward. Some examples of TRUE DSs in RMs, Sirius & Moody. I don't know what to properly call this new generation of well-skylit boats that call themselves deck saloons. Oyster has done an authentic, fluid and fabulous line design with this deck saloon "hybrid" I'm calling. Paulo starts to address the subject in the Southerly post above. Gunfleet seems to suffer the same issue. The question remains, where do deck saloons cease to be in these interesting sailboats? Is it a misuse of the term? Are we going to allow the charter industry redefine these? What should they be called? With more and more hull portlights, which I like best, I think some boats do a great job of bringing the horizon in (which I think is the goal in many cases). Limit the steps from cockpit to saloon to define? 

Finally, just a quick BIG thanks and congratulations to Paulo for having this thread. I do not post much, but it is a blog in its own to me, and I look forward to it EVERY day. I'm an architect by training and just love to see and learn where marine technology and consumer trends are taking boat design. One day, maybe, print it and turn it into a book! I know the names of some collaborators to that book here as well. 
Thanks to all and please keep it up!
Hans
Dorado, Puerto Rico


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> Is it fair to say that the term "deck saloon" has been misused by brands such as Jeanneau and Hunter? The latest Jeanneau is just a big eyebrow, and same hull? To me, d.s. and pilothouses have the design characteristic of being able to stand (galleys) or even sit (dinettes, nav stations) looking above deck and forward. Some examples of TRUE DSs in RMs, Sirius & Moody. I don't know what to properly call this new generation of well-skylit boats that call themselves deck saloons. Oyster has done an authentic, fluid and fabulous line design with this deck saloon "hybrid" I'm calling. Paulo starts to address the subject in the Southerly post above. Gunfleet seems to suffer the same issue. The question remains, where do deck saloons cease to be in these interesting sailboats? Is it a misuse of the term? Are we going to allow the charter industry redefine these? What should they be called? With more and more hull portlights, which I like best, I think some boats do a great job of bringing the horizon in (which I think is the goal in many cases). Limit the steps from cockpit to saloon to define?
> 
> Finally, just a quick BIG thanks and congratulations to Paulo for having this thread. I do not post much, but it is a blog in its own to me, and I look forward to it EVERY day. I'm an architect by training and just love to see and learn where marine technology and consumer trends are taking boat design. One day, maybe, print it and turn it into a book! I know the names of some collaborators to that book here as well.
> Thanks to all and please keep it up!
> Hans
> Dorado, Puerto Rico


Thanks Hans,

I think you are right. There are few true deck saloons on the market and none not expensive or among the mass production boats. Hanse had one some years back as well as Dehler but they were not a commercial success and they stop making them.

They also call them raised deck saloons but I guess that what is raised is the ceiling

In most of them it has nothing to do with having a great view but with more interior space and light, less an interior of a boat, as they used to be and more like a modern apartment full of light. However a modern tendency on those boats is having also big port hulls that gave a good view and if you are near hills or if the coast line is not completely flat, those big superior "windows" will provide a view anyway and a good one if you are standing.

I like boats that have boat interiors but these interiors make a lot of sense for people that pass more time on anchor or at the marina than sailing (and they are the majority) and use many times the boat as an apartment. Understandably, in a boat that is used much more as a second house than as a sailing boat, they would prefer a more airy and house type interior.

The new Oyster 625 (nominated for European boat of the year on the Luxury cruiser class) is a good example of a boat with one of those interiors, I mean it is a very good one. The boat is not particularly good looking on the outside, but that interior is just sweet, for the ones that want an house/boat and have the money for it. As you can see those huge port hulls are almost the size of small windows and will provide a good view while the raising ceiling and the almost zenithal lighting will provide a "big" airy interior,














































But regarding the RM, to be precise, they are not deck saloons but pilot house boats.

I mean they provide an outside view but not to the ones on the saloon. The outside view is for the one in the chart table. The the idea is not only to provide a luminous and airy saloon but also the possibility to sail the boat (with the help of a joystick) from the chart table.



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## opc11

Paulo, what's your opinion on the southerly 42RST? Seems like a relatively fast & comfortable cruiser. I've noticed they're starting to use node wiring as well. Seems like a great idea.


----------



## ericra

That Oyster is just beautiful.


----------



## PCP

ericra said:


> That Oyster is just beautiful.


Do you have seen the "room" and the "kitchen"? I mead that is not a boat galley and a cabin but it is more like a small well designed apartment's kitchen and room:



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

opc11 said:


> Paulo, what's your opinion on the southerly 42RST? Seems like a relatively fast & comfortable cruiser. I've noticed they're starting to use node wiring as well. Seems like a great idea.


The Southerly 42 RST is the boat my wife would like to have. She does not sail actively but with many thousands of hours cruising, after testing with me lots of different sailboats and coming to many boat shows, she is not properly ignorant about boat design and she knows very well why she likes that boat. Of course it was not very difficult to explain to her that we cannot have that one. The boat is expensive, too expensive for us, too slow for me, but I really like a very fast boat, the same way I like a fast car.

The boat is very seaworthy, reasonably fast, very well built, with a great interior and great views to the exterior. The outside volume and shape is not too penalized by the height of the cabin and has that big bonus of having an insignificant draft.

That's why I was not very enthusiastic about the new Southerly 420 (post 2112) that I fear would replace this one. The new 420 is precisely that kind of raised ceiling saloon (also called with no much logic decksaloon) and not a true decksaloon like the Southerly 42 RST.

I only find the 42 RST a bit too heavy on the transom, I mean visually. With a beam brought more aft, a more clean design on the stern and eventually a redesign in interior style, the 42 could still have a long live ahead as a very modern and well designed boat. Actually I think that except in what concerns the interior (that is a different option and not comparable), the 420 is uglier than the 42 RST.















































Southerly 42RST

Regards

Paulo

..


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## opc11

Funny that you posted a pic of S/V Distant Shores. I happened upon their blog snd read it from start to finish. They went from the 42 to the 49. I REALLY like the idea of a swing keel and the freedom it offers to get closer to shore. Not to mention how it's designed to beach. Very expensive but nice to dream about a circumnavigation in one. As for speed it seems to do quite well against similar boats......

I guess what I'm saying is......your wife has great taste! 

Ciao


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## PCP

opc11 said:


> Funny that you posted a pic of S/V Distant Shores. I happened upon their blog snd read it from start to finish. They went from the 42 to the 49. I REALLY like the idea of a swing keel and the freedom it offers to get closer to shore. Not to mention how it's designed to beach. Very expensive but nice to dream about a circumnavigation in one. As for speed it seems to do quite well against similar boats......
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is......your wife has great taste!
> 
> Ciao


When I am talking about "too slow for me" it is not on the video conditions, but with very light wind or with a lot of wind downwind. To go well I guess the Southerly will need at least 8K wind. I want a boat that can sail without almost no wind, I mean 4K wind and that can go well with 6K.

Downwind I want a boat that can plane with winds over 20K and that can go easily on 2 digit speeds. I know it is a lot for a cruising boat, but that is just what I want: I want not only a good sailboat but also a sportive sailboat. Besides cruising I would like to have a fast boat, a boat that can give a lot of fun sailing. I like sailing as much as I like cruising.

Yes, I don't doubt about my wife's good taste, after all she married me. In what regards boats I am lucky: If it is nothing very much naked as a Pogo, would not have a keel with more than 2.40 (even if everything with more than 2.00 m makes her protest) if the boat as an acceptable galley, a decent storage and it is a seaworthy boat, she would tolerate the rest just to make me happy.

She just loved the Grand Soleil 39 and would be happy with it. I love the boat too even if I would prefer the XP 38 that has a surprisingly nice interior (small but nice) with a good storage and a decent galley.

The Xp 38 has also passed my wife examination with flying colors. Not very big but with a very nice ambiance (you cannot see that on the movies or photos) and enough storage. So that would be the one if I had not any financial limitations. On that one I would not even had to put more weight on the keel, as on the almost affordable (for me) Salona 38, to make it a better offshore boat. As it is the boat is already a great offshore boat.

So, since we are talking about the XP 38 that I said here (before being inside the boat) that it seemed to have a very stark and small interior, a new video with the interior, by Solovela (and some others). The interior is not big (because the boat has 3 cabins) but is much more cozy than what it appears on the movies and photos. You can feel the quality of it.






*MOVIE:
*

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Schn%C3%B6rkellos-schnell-segeln/60a339f4446d8fa15ff44f4fc8b8ce14






I don't have plans to circumnavigate but I agree that the Southerly 42 RST makes a lot of sense as a boat to circumnavigate. I didn't post "Distant shores" by accident, it was a somewhat hidden message to the ones that know who is the owner of that boat (or was). It is not by accident that one of the most experienced sailing couples bought a Southerly to their circumnavigations after having for many years a slow heavy old style blue water boat.

Cheers

Paulo


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## opc11

Thanks!

Of the many boats that you've brought to light here, xp is another i find very interesting. I'd have to look azt my notes but i think the Xc line captured my attention a bit more and i would probably prefer a two cabin layout. There's been so many it's hard to keep them all straight! A fast cruiser with strong singlehanded capabilities would fit me well.

Regards,


----------



## APP Mode

PCP said:


> New Sirius 40: The boat plans will be shown in Dusseldorf.
> 
> A Sirius 40 will have all the space needed to live aboard. As most of you know these boats have an incredible detailed interior with the best quality I know or saw in sailboats. I am sure it will be an incredible boat.
> 
> Pity that the cabin on this Marc-Oliver von Ahlen design seems just a bit too high on what otherwise I find a nice looking boat.


Anyway on the Febuary 2012 PBO-Practical Boat Owner magazine you can see a test of the SIRIUS 310, very interesting and in my opinion gives a wide view about this brand.

They mentioned that some previous scandinavian perfomance boats are changing their minds. I mean they are considering to buy Sirius yachts.


----------



## APP Mode

This Southerly 42RS in my opinion, from outside view doesn't look like a deck salon.


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## PCP

opc11 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Of the many boats that you've brought to light here, xp is another i find very interesting. I'd have to look azt my notes but i think the Xc line captured my attention a bit more and i would probably prefer a two cabin layout. There's been so many it's hard to keep them all straight! A fast cruiser with strong singlehanded capabilities would fit me well.
> 
> Regards,


The Xc 38 is a great offshore cruising boat, the rational choice, like a BMW. The Xp is a passion choice, also an offshore boat, but like a Porsche

The Xc has a luxurious interior, the Xp is more Zen but both got what it is needed for cruising. The XC has more tankage but in what regards diesel the Xp needs a lot less wind to sail and you can always mount an watermaker.

Here, some movies with the Xc 38:

*MOVIE:*

Der goldene Schnitt aus Dänemark - Yacht TV






Ciao

Paulo


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## PCP

New boat: The OVNI evolution 52.

That's a true revolution on OVNI, the most famous bluewater French boat. The new series are still aluminum centerboarders but they have abandoned their overall conservative design to present a true modern line based with the hull based on the shape of solo Open boats, a Marc Lombard design.

Also for the first time they present the possibility of a completely closed dog house an ugly one in my opinion. But if we don't consider that this is a good looking boat that for the first time show lines that are not very far away from its more sportive cousin, the Cigale 16.

Some interesting solutions: The wheel can be on the usual place or more at the center, inside the dog house, the boat has a garage for a dinghy with 3.10m and utilizes the same interior solution as the Benetau sense, meaning that the boat has no properly aft cabins (just a very small one to sleep while sailing, I mean for an eventual skipper) and that all the space is used for the garage and storage.

The announced price is around 500 000€ and that don't seem much for an aluminium boat of this size.

A 47 footer will also be made along the same lines.
































































Of course, in what regards the Cigale 16, that is just a bit longer and is also made by Alubat and designed by Marc Lombard, this boat just seems more like a Cigale than the previous OVNI but the differences between the two boats in what regards sailing are *HUGE*. Just to give you an idea this one weights 16 000 kg, the Cigale 16, 10 750kg. Both boats have about the same sail area (the Cigale has a bit more) and the Cigale has less 5 250kg. You can imagine the difference specially in what regards going downwind over hull speed and sailing with light winds

But if the Alubat 52 will be slow if compared with a Cigale if we compare it with the Benetau Sense 50 the story will be other: The Sense is smaller weights about the same ( less 700 kg) but has less 13 m2 of sail and that and a smaller LWL will made the Ovni faster in all points of sail except probably close upwind and of course with the possibility to avoid bad weather staying on anchor in very shallow waters.

....


----------



## APP Mode

PCP said:


> You mean it is well designed? I agree.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes it is !


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## PCP

For the ones that are interested in understanding what is the fastest boat to sail solo, I mean if you are just a good sailor and not a professional one, the Transaquadra is on again. They left Madeira to the Carib, now with all boats together.

Many boats close to the leadership that is for the moment on the solo category for a A35 and on the duo, for a Jeanneau SF 32.

The leader on solo is French but on duo it is an Italian team that is leading. That should piss a lot of French

Transquadra 2011

As we have saw on the first race, the Sun Fast 32 and the Archambault 31 (not to mention the 35) are faster with a short crew then boats with a bigger rating like several First 40,7, several Grand Soleil 40, a Confortina 42, a Sun Odyssey 49, a Sunfast 40 and a 37 Grand Soleil Race.

Nice images from a JPK 10.10 that is now in 2th place on the solo cat.


----------



## opc11

PCP said:


> The Xc 38 is a great offshore cruising boat, the rational choice, like a BMW. The Xp is a passion choice, also an offshore boat, but like a Porsche
> 
> The Xc has a luxurious interior, the Xp is more Zen but both got what it is needed for cruising. The XC has more tankage but in what regards diesel the Xp needs a lot less wind to sail and you can always mount an watermaker.
> 
> Here, some movies with the Xc 38:
> 
> *MOVIE:*
> 
> Der goldene Schnitt aus Dänemark - Yacht TV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ciao
> 
> Paulo


Darn it! I've always thought of myself as more of a Porsche guy. In fact, this boat will someday be the Porsche I always denied myself......


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## PCP

I guess that everybody know the Hydroptere the fastest sailboat on the planet and contrary to some rocket sailboats that can only sail fast on flat sea and protected waters, this animal is an offshore boat.

But perhaps you don't know that some of you, I mean Americans, will have a possibility to see it flying: The boat is going to be shipped to America to try to beat an offshore record, Los Angels to Honolulu, next Mars.

The boat is a creation of a group of passionate people but most of all an Alain Thébault dream.

Here is the story of a dreamer and is dream made true:






2011 - l'Hydroptère - L'histoire d'un rêve - The story of a dream (8 min) from l'Hydroptère - Official page on Vimeo.


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## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> I guess that everybody know the Hydroptere the fastest sailboat on the planet and contrary to some rocket sailboats that can only sail fast on flat sea and protected waters, this animal is an offshore boat.
> 
> But perhaps you don't know that some of you, I mean Americans, will have a possibility to see it flying: The boat is going to be shipped to America to try to beat an offshore record, Los Angels to Honolulu, next Mars.


The Hydroptère is indeed a wonderful record breaking flying machine. But as Paulo stated very accurately, unlike the fragile experimental constructions used on flat water speed tracks, it's a very accomplished concept that has already proven its extraordinary potential extensively.

The fact that it will now sail across the Pacific is another milestone in Alain Thébault's project, which started more than 30 years ago with the dream of a certain Éric Tabarly&#8230; 
Of course foils are now common on racing machines even offshore, but it seems the Hydroptère project will continue to be at the edge of research.

After breaking the so-called "sailing sound barrier" of 50 knots, Alain Thébault and his team have set themselves another incredible challenge: crossing the Atlantic in less than 72 hours. Therefore a new flying machine is to be built in 2013: the LIBRYD. The architects are VPLP, who just conquered the Jules Verne trophy with Banque Populaire V.

Alain Thebault

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Hi Eric, thanks for posting.

Yes they are studying a big bird and I hope these difficult times won't cut their funding. The LIBRYD will be bigger, will have a rigid sail and on the back, instead of having a a foil on the central hull will have two, one on each ama.

We can see here the two boats, well the three because they have already a small one that is a sort of laboratory for the Libryd, the Hydropter.ch, that sails on the Geneve lake and is beating records. The boat has already sail at almost 40K and can maintain sustained speeds near 30K. Remember that this is a very small boat. Look at the picture:















*The Libryd:*














































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

And since we were talking about the Hydropter lets also talk about the other boat that has also passed the 100km/h barrier, well it is not really a boat but a sail machine that can only sail on flat water, the Vestas Sailrocket 2. And on this time they were sailing with a journalist, one with big balls


----------



## PCP

On the Transquadra suprinsigly the two first boats are Solo boats, I mean the two classes mixed. The Duos are not keeping up with the best solos

A Dam good job by these two sailors, one in a A 35 another one on the JPK 10.10 the one that we saw on a movie some posts back.

Finally the movie from the race start: Lots of nice and interesting boats





depart mer _por overlapprod_


----------



## EricKLYC

These guys also got their share of misfortune:





http://a.blip.tv/api.swf#go0c3v58Ag

Best regards,

Eric


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## PCP

Hei Eric, congratulation Your boat, the *Pogo 12.50* was elected European performance sailboat of 2012 First time for a Pogo.

The other European boats of the year:

On the Family cruising class: *Benetau Oceanis 45*

On the Luxury class: *Oyster 625* (that boat with a great interior that I have posted not many posts before).

On the special class: the *Esse 7.50*

*Movie*:

Die Siegeryachten des Jahres 2012 - Yacht TV

and don't miss this *movie*, with the best images of the sea tests:

http://tv.yacht.de/video/EYOTY-2012...r-Sea-Trials/bb6a518d51b17fa0f3e391d07d6d5b7f

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Regarding the reasons that lead the main European boat magazines to choose them among all the nominees :

*Performance cruiser - POGO 12.50 *:

*The light and sparsely appointed Pogo surprisingly won out over more established competitors.

Even though it's not a boat for the masses, she impressed the jury with her concept and fantastic performance potential.

Reaching in a 25-knot breeze under jib and a double reef in the main, the boat surpassed 17 knots of top speed while remaining safely under control at all times.

There's plenty of space below with all the necessities for a family cruise, so she's quite the long-distance flyer.

LOA: 12.50 m; Beam: 4.50 m; Sail Area: 107 sq.m.; , DSPL: 5.5 t; Price: 221.410 euros.*

*Family cruiser - BENETEAU OCEANIS 45* :

*The Oceanis 45 persuaded the jury with her concept and a combination of innovative details such as a well-balanced sail plan, a rig that's stepped farther aft, a Targa bar above the companionway that keeps the clutter out of the cockpit and improves the sheeting angle of the main, wide and gently descending companionway steps, a large and well-organized cockpit, and a stern hatch that doubles as a swim platform when lowered, among others.

LOA: 13.50 m; Beam: 4.49 m, Sail Area: 100 sq.m.; DSPL: 9.6 t; Price: 203.370 euros.*

*Luxury cruiser - OYSTER 625 *:

*This 19-meter Oyster 625 , a luxury yacht designed by Rob Humphreys, had to fend off very tough competition in very difficult conditions.
During the test in the North Sea it was howling with 50 knots and more, but it was no problem for the Oyster 625, which stayed comparatively dry and under control.

Bright, posh, and spacious belowdecks, there was no creaking noise to notice, not even in four-meter waves.

It was downright difficult to find flaws. Although the realm of "mega" really starts above 80 feet, the Oyster, in many ways, resembles a super yacht.

LOA: 19.37 m; Beam: 5.44 m; Sail Area: 236 sq.m.; DSPL: 33.5 t; Draft: 2.80 m (alt. 2.15 m); Price: 3,070,200 euros.
*

*Special yachts - Esse 750* :

*Small but completely carbon, the Esse 750 has a hull, rig, and bowsprit all made from the magic fiber. The expensive construction material drives up the price of the Esse, but it also makes her light, strong, and fast.

Designed by Umberto Felci, the boat, which is built in Switzerland near Lake Zurich, is a delight to sail: precision and speed.

The 750's helm is perfectly balanced, she can be easily handled by a crew of one or two, and going to weather is a thrill. It's the perfect fit for connoisseurs and experts who are looking for something special.

A one-design for going full tilt.

LOA: 7.50 m; Beam: 2.05 m; Sail Area: 35 sq.m; DSPL: 960 kg; Price: 63,070 euros.*

Read more: European Sailboat of the Year Awards, 2012 | Boats.com Blog


----------



## PCP

Well, they have not an election for the Naval Architect of the year and it would be very interesting if they have.

This year I would say that the one that would probably win would be Finot/Conq: Two of the 4 winning boats are designed by them (Pogo 12.50 and Oceanis 45).

And those were not the only interesting projects they have done in 2011 and not all big boats but certainly very interesting boats:






I know they are not one NA but a team of two, like in several leading NA cabinets, and they team together for many years, since Finot found a young guy playing with the first canting keel (Conq) and invited him to work with him. Conq was already at the time a young NA and an accomplished racer.

Jean-Marie Finot is not even formally a NA, just an Architect that had find and interest in boats and end up dedicating to them almost all his work, that has been a benchmark in what regards boat design all along the second half of the XX century and in the beginning of this one. I have a big admiration for him and also for Conq that have keep up with its master and fried.

70 year's old Finot is also a sailor and a cruiser and has a wife that likes to cruise and the fact that his cruising boat is a Pogo 10.50 says much about the kind of sailor he is. Well, to say the truth is Pogo is a modified one...to be faster

There are around the world about 30 000 boats made by the designs of Finot/Conq. That's quite a number

Have a look at their site:

Groupe Finot, yacht designers

finot-conq architectes navals

....


----------



## PCP

Some more interesting information about the election, testing and the boats:

Every year up to 100 new sailing boats emerge on the European market, but only four yards are being honored with the "European yacht of the year" award.

"This year's tests in Ijmuiden/Holland and Barcelona were characterized by a lot of wind. During the boat tests, storms of up to 50 knots hit the North Sea, resulting in waves up to four meters high.

And over the Catalanian coast, winds blew with up to 6 Beaufort, creating a chaotic sea. There had never been such winds at the test dates before, *a real endurance test for the boats, that all of them mastered well, some even exceptional."*, says Jochen Rieker, editor-in-chief of YACHT.

*"In general, more emphasis was put on sailing performance. Not just the winners but every yacht we tested was fun to sail. *

*Furthermore, there is a very consequent development in several directions, such as comfort in the category of family-cruisers, or speed and fun in the category of performance-cruisers and special-yachts.

All in all it was a great year", Rieker resumes. *

"European Yacht of the Year" in the category of Family Cruiser went to: Oceanis 45 (Bénéteau)

Nominees:

Bénéteau Oceanis 45 
Dufour 445 Grand'Large 
Elan 210 
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 379 
RM 1060.

"European Yacht of the Year" in the category of Luxury Cruiser went to: 
Oyster 625 (Oyster Marine)

Nominees:

Amel 64 
Bénéteau Sense 50 
Bestewind 50 
Hallberg-Rassy 64 
Oyster 625.

"European Yacht of the Year" in the category of Performance Cruiser went to: 
Pogo 12.50 (Pogo-Structures)

Nominees:

Dehler 41 
Grand Soleil 50 
J 111 
Pogo 12.50 
XP-44.

„European Yacht of the Year" in the category of Special Yachts went to: 
Esse 750 (Josef Schuchters Sportboot AG)

Nominees:

Dinamica RS 940 
Eagle 44 
Esse 750 
Keus 22 
Tarac 33.


----------



## PCP

.

Beneteau oceanis 45,European 2012 family boat of the year:


----------



## APP Mode

The Oyster 625 is amazing !


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## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Hei Eric, congratulation Your boat, the *Pogo 12.50* was elected European performance sailboat of 2012 First time for a Pogo.


Thanks a lot, Paulo. 
It's good to know the Pogo has been appreciated by an international jury. But their judgement only confirms the thorough and accurate analysis that has already been made by all of you on this thread.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Well, at least on this thread we all knew the Pogo 12.50 is a great boat but it is truly impressive that its sailing charachteristics have impressed more all those experienced sailors than the ones from the Xp 44 that is also an incredible fast and interesting boat.

Chapeau, as the French say

Changing subject, forever beautiful: *LULWORTH*






and another beauty: *FIREFLY*






Really beautiful. I don't know why old racing boats are so elegant. A car from the 20's or an airplane can be beautiful but not as elegant as a boat, not by far.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

This year I did not went to Dusseldorf, I went instead to Italy looking for a used boat, what a drag. I miss the boats the ambiance and the beer, yes Dusseldorf has a brewery on the old town by the river and they still make their own beer, a dark bitter one that with time I come to love. The place looks stopped in time it is like if you enter on a movie from the 30's, I like it: warm and cozy.

Next year I hope not to miss it.

Well,I have looked at some movies about this year's show, not the same thing...






*Movie: 
*
Positives Fazit der boot 2012 - Yacht TV

On this one, that is not very interesting at the beginning, just in the end you will see some images of the Salona 35 that looks just beautiful.










*Movie:*

Video - "boot 2012" in Düsseldorf: Die Messe der weißen Träume - Reise | STERN.DE

..


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## PCP

I had saw some photos of this, but in movie is much more fun


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## PCP

This is a....BAVARIA

It seems Bavaria is going to make an inexpensive racer, a one class racer, the Bavaria B/one.

It will be fast (Farr designed) and inexpensive ( 22 900€ at the factory).

DATA (all preliminary):

Hull Length 7.00 m 
Beam 2.49 m 
Draft 1.60 m Liftkeel down 
Main 21 m2 
Jib 11 m2 
Gennaker 46 m2 
Weight approx. 1020 kg 
370 kg Ballast

The boat will also have a cruising kit.

I would say this is an interesting one

...


----------



## PCP

The new Bavaria is going to be lots of fun to sail. Have a look at some kids having fun with a J 80 a boat not very different from the One design Bavaria:


----------



## PCP

New boat from Dehler, or at least a new version of the 35 that remains in production, the 35SQ (same hull).

Dehler normaly make a SQ version of their boats when they have already some years to increase sales. SQ means super quality and in this case it means bigger winches, double back-stay, retractable cleats and as an option a closed transom with a folding swim platform. 

The bigger difference however is a two wheel set up on the cockpit.

The boat is produced, as the 35, in two versions that they call cruiser and race, with a small difference in draft but with a big difference in quality of construction, weight and price: Epoxy and a plastic core on the race one, normal resins on the cruising one and a balsa core.

Off course the one that they call race is as good or better to cruise as the cruising one, only more expensive. The interior is the same.





































Even if I understand the utility I think that the closed transom makes the boat ugly. I would have preferred a bench on the transom, leaving it open behind. That would also be better in what regards water evacuation.

Regarding the other version the two wheel set up certainly have advantages in what regards cruising with a far better passage on the cockpit, however I have to say that I liked that big carbon wheel and it seems obvious to me that even with a good set up the wheel sensibility would always be better with a single wheel (less friction). The two wells setup provides a better storage on the cockpit aft the wheel. Not an easy choice, at least for me even if in what regards sales there is no doubt: almost everybody wants two wheels set-up


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## PCP

The best movie about the Dusseldorf boat show...is a French one, by voile and voiliers:

*Movie:*

Les chantiers allemands en force à Düsseldorf

....


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## PCP

Also on voile and voiliers this great movie about Yvan Bourgnon et Sébastien Roubinet and their incredible 3 days sail around the Horn and the Beagle (450nm) on a Nacra F20 cat with 6.2m.

They got 50 k freezing winds and survived to tell the story.

*Movie*:

Trois jours autour du Horn en cata de sport !


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## PCP

Hamnen tested the Dragonfly 28 sport. Lovely boat...for a price.

Lots of fun and speed with a great cruising potencial...for the size.


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## PCP

On the Transquadra that as most now is a solo or duo Transat for amateurs (more than 40 years old) the leading boat is an A31 and several other are among the first. I knew already that a A31 and the Jeanneau SF 32 can make about the same speed (at least on this race) as an A35 and be faster than for instance a First 40.7 or a Opium 39. I know that but I still find it amazing 

Transquadra 2011


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## PCP

The Archambault A 31 is an incredible boat and with JPK the only one that can offer exceptional results on solo or short handed ocean races and on handicap crewed races while offering a decent cruising interior for coastal cruising or in a very spartan way even for offshore cruising.

The Transquadra offers a very interesting study to find boats that can be fast and seaworthy offshore while easy manageable solo or by a duo. The race goes on for many years, the guys that race are amateurs with more than 40 years old but they are experienced sailors, many ex top racers now in its 50's or 60's that come to have fun.

They are very knowledgeable about boats and the information that is gathered by them in what regards the most suitable boats to do this race is very precise.

The boats that go well are the A31, the A35, the JPK 9,6, the JPK 10.10 and the Sunfast 32.

I would say that it is as relevant as the presence of many of these boats on the lead of the race, the total absence of boats that would seem at first glance capable of a good results, like the Elan 350 and the First 30. Why there is no one racing with them? Well, certainly there is a reason and probably they are not competitive with the other mentioned boats.

Let's have a better look at the A31. The boat has a bulbed keel for this race but since on handicap races a non bulbed kell has better rating, they also make it with a non bulbed keel. Stupid ratings, cause the boat is more efficient with a bulbed keel.




































































































And a new interior they have presented this year at the Paris boat show:






And remember that amazingly this little boat with a good amateur crew on a Transat is faster than a 40ft cruiser racer, even a good fast one very adapted to solo sailing like an Opium 39 and certainly faster than the typical fast 40ft cruiser racer, like a First or a grand Soleil.

Archambault starts to have a well deserved world wide recognition and has dealers everywhere, including United States and Australia.





...

.....


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## PCP

From a small one too really big ones

Some of the more radical sailing propositions, most of them with fixed wings and hybrid propulsion (wind and sun):


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## PCP

Just beautiful the new look of Hydropter:



















New sponsor, big money, big campaign. The boat is now sponsored by a big French shipyard, a leader on navy ships, DCNS.

I had already said they were going this year to make an attempt on the trans-Pacific, from Los Angeles to Honolulu record. They plan for 2013 to beat the 24-hour absolute record (908.2 nautical miles) and the record around the UK, both belonging to "Banque Populaire V", the world's biggest racing trimaran and the one that has also the circumnavigation record.

For 2014 they plan to beat the transatlantic record and make it in less than three days. The actual record of 3 days, 15 hours, 25 minutes and 48 seconds belongs also to "Banque Populaire V".

So, it will be like David against Goliath. It will be interesting to follow.


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## kootenay

We were moored in North Sound VG the this week near the Yacht Kokomo III. 170 ft long and just simply beautiful. Would give at least one of my kids and my left leg for her. the same night woke up to the most incredible Fireworks show as well. Somebody spent half a million bucks on that show. I would guess at least I used to be in the Fireworks business.

Superyacht of the Week: Kokomo, the largest Alloy to date - SuperYacht of the Week - SuperyachtTimes.com


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## PCP

kootenay said:


> We were moored in North Sound VG the this week near the Yacht Kokomo III. 170 ft long and just simply beautiful. Would give at least one of my kids and my left leg for her. ..


Thanks for posting. Yes it is beautiful, a Ed Dubois design, but you would need all your kids to sail her not to mention do the anti-fouling











*Movie:*

Kokomo - YouTube

Kokomo | Naval Architecture & Yacht Design | Dubois Yachts

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

I have already posted before about "Black Pepper" that all carbon French daysailer that has impressed me on the Paris boat show. I would say that impress is a small word, I almost fall in love with the dam boat. I have posted some photos and it was enough to understand that it was a great boat but that would not explain that big attraction that we call love.

I guess that with the very good photos that Yacht magazine posted on line is easier to understand. I bet they are going to test that boat, it seems to me that they were as impressed as me


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## PCP

If you sail near the Atlantic coast of France or if you plan to visit Europe in the summer you should consider to sail to Brest in July (13-19) I mean if you like boats

They have another edition of their nautical festival: "Tonerre the Brest", a special one since they are celebrating its 20th anniversary.

Brest is in Brittany and Brittany is the home of the French sailors, I mean most of the great French legendary sailors are from here and none other French region is linked to the sea as Brittany. There are few other places as appropriated for a big nautical festival: It is not only boats, but the ambiance, the architecture the food, the wine and the beer. If you go there don't miss Quimper, Saint Malo (the corsair city) and Rennes.

Take a look:

Brest 2012 - Fête maritime internationale - Les Tonnerres de Brest


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## PCP

Can a sailboat be ugly and interesting? Certainly even if I have a "thing" with ugly boats, I mean I rarely find them interesting but that is not the case. Just look at this one, the Futura 49:










































It can make not much sense on the States or Australia but makes a lot of sense on the full European marinas where a Cat pays double and even so in most of them they just don't have place.

If you think that all this complication and trouble don't make sense, economically speaking, let me tell you are wrong. I have been lately on an Italian Marina, a nice but vulgar one, where a place for a 12.20 m boat cost 7000€ a year. I guess that a 49ft would pay over 9000€. Double that and you will have 18 000€ a year. In 10 years that's a 90 000€ of savings, enough to buy a Porsche.

Now they have only to make a nice looking one to be a sucess


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## PCP

On the Transquadra, duo crew, at more than halfway finally it's an A35 that isolated takes the lead, followed at distance by a JPK 110, another A35, an A31, a A 35, an A31 an A35, a Bongo 9.60 and a Sun Fast 32.

On Solo it is a Jod 35 that leads!!!, followed by a Sun Fast 32, a JPK 110 a ILC 30 and only then an A35 and a A31.

It is coincidence or are the Archambault just too difficult to sail solo? We can see a clear domination by Archambault on the duo race but on the solo race the first one only comes in 4th!!! Let's see if this tendency is maintained through the rest of the race. It seems that the Opium 39 is too much of a handful for a solo good amateur: he is only in 14th place, far away from the lead.

Transquadra 2011

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Hei guys, I have to share this one
Americans in the real world!!!!


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## PCP

and after this much "Matcho" video, one just for the girls:

*WOW*

Women's offshore world, new race to run from Plymouth to Antigua in Figaro 2s this October, the first Transat just for ladies:

The event has already generated a tremendous amount of interest among women sailors from France, Norway, Germany and the UK with more countries are expected to sign up.

Sailed doublehanded in 33ft Beneteau Figaro 2s, the 3300 mile route takes in the Bay of Biscay then leaves the Azores to starboard, before heading out across the Atlantic to Antigua. The course is designed to test the sailing and navigational skills of the women crew as well as their stamina and endurance.

Women's Offshore Worlds | The Daily Sail


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## PCP

And a really god news to all that loves boats: Swan that was passing for a rough time will come out of the crisis with flying colors.

They have received on the last months commands for 6 new boats, among them a 80ft and three 60ft. The shipyard that since 1966 have made some of the most beautiful sailboats around has put recently on the water the hull 2000.

2000 Swans. I had no idea, I thought they were a lot less. Good fortune to them, they certainly deserve it after all those years doing exceptional boats


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## PCP

After 2 years the Farr 25 come to Europe, to Dusseldorf. Beautiful boat



















but also a very expensive one: 58 000€ without transport, tax or sails. I guess that is why the boat has not been a success. The boat costs 2 times more than the new one design Bavaria, also designed by Farr. Yes the Farr 25 will be faster but not much. I bet the Bavaria is going to have the success this one doesn't have....but it is a beautiful boat, no doubt about that.

It has a well thought place for the engine. Not as good as the Elan 210 but neat:


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## PCP

Also on Dusseldorf a new boat that I have already talked about and one that I like, the South African Pacer 310, a fast boat with a good interior and very good specifications:

TECHNICAL INFORMATION

Length Overall 9.5m 
Length WaterLine 8.953m 
Beam 3.33m 
Draft 2m 
Displacement 3055kg 
Engine Size (STD) 13hp

SAIL AREAS

Upwind 54.95m2 
Downwind 103.29m2

The hull and deck are built with using vacuum bagged hand lay-up. The laminated construction consists of hydrolysis - proof vinylester resin, multidirectional fabrics and Balsa as sandwich material. Internally the laminate is sealed using topcoat.

The boat is offered in Germany for about 89 000€ including 19% German VAT and that seems a fair price.

The boat is beautiful :


















































































Hei David, why don't you consider a Pacer? They have a 37 that is a very nice boat and I am sure they can adapt the boat to all your requisites. They can deliver the boat there or on the Med and if you buy directly from the factory you should get a 30% discount.


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## bjung

PCP said:


>


Black Pepper is definetly an attractive vessel, but the one to starboard deserves a mention as well: Henningson&Steckmest Scalar 36.
I know Paulo will likely find her old, traditional, slow and ugly  (so, no comment needed  ), but some of us might think she would make an attractive and sturdy bluewater cruiser. Traditional skeg hung rudder, encapsulated prop ( looks a lot like a PSC below the waterline), and the fit&finish looks impressive.
http://www.scalaryachts.com/html/site/g/pdfs_e/hs_scalar36.pdf
Interresting enough this vessel is availlable in 3 configurations, including a real decksalon ( more like a pilothouse).
Has anyone here sailed one?
Bernd


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## PCP

bjung said:


> Black Pepper is definetly an attractive vessel, but the one to starboard deserves a mention as well: Henningson&Steckmest Scalar 36.
> I know Paulo will likely find her old, traditional, slow and ugly  (so, no comment needed  ), but some of us might think she would make an attractive and sturdy bluewater cruiser. Traditional skeg hung rudder, encapsulated prop ( looks a lot like a PSC below the waterline), and the fit&finish looks impressive.
> http://www.scalaryachts.com/html/site/g/pdfs_e/hs_scalar36.pdf
> Interresting enough this vessel is availlable in 3 configurations, including a real decksalon ( more like a pilothouse).
> Has anyone here sailed one?
> Bernd


Great eye Bernd, it is in fact a Scalar 36 and as you say a slow boat, I would not say an ugly boat but definitively a not very interesting one, not because I don't like classical boats but because the design of that one is just old, particularly in what regards the hull.




























Why the hell would someone have today a boat that has a hull and keel very similar to a Malo from the 80's? If you want that type of boat just buy a modern Malo and take advantage of 30 years of improvements in hull design.

I have already posted here about the Mystery 35, that one is not only a very beautiful boat as also a true modern classic with a modern keel and ruder :A beautiful, fast and seaworthy boat.

Both boats have about the same size and a not very different sail area and while the Mystery 35 weights 4 500kg the Scalar 36 weights 7 200 kg

That's the difference between an old design still made today and a modern design (Stephen Jones) with classical lines, a huge difference.



















This one is the new 43. Same type of hull, keel and ruder.















Mystery 35

See the boat interior here. Be patient it will worth it:






Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Some movies for the night: Wipe out


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## PCP

I have posted this in another thread and I think it would be of interest to post it here with some modifications. The subject is:

*What happens to stability when we charge a modern boat?*

Modern boats are not like old boats where the ballast was intern and the load was part of the ballast and indispensable to have stability.

On a modern keel ballasted boat the ballast is kept under the boat, on the keel, sometimes more than a meter under and because the boats displace very litte water and the hull is not deeply immersed, loading the boat, even with a good load distribution, has a negative effect on the GZ curve (arm's length curve) and therefore on the boat AVS and on the final stability.

But as we know what really measures the boat stability is not the GZ curve but the RM curve (moments curve) that is obtained multiplying the arm by the mass of the boat. So what we get is this:










If the GZ curve is worse, Why, on what regards most of the positive part of the curve, the RM curve is better? Simply because the added mass more than compensates the slight decrease of GZ in all points of the curve *except in what regards the final stability and the AVS*.

The Max righting moment will go up but in what regards the final stability, it will go down, as well as the AVS. On this case the AVS passes from 122 to 120.

Will the boat will be faster with a Max load than with a minimum load since he has more RM and can carry more sail? Every racer will tell you no. The added power cannot compensate the drag that the bigger weight will imply.

Will the boat be safer loaded than with no charge? That is debatable and it will depend on the boat and its B/D ratio but I will say that in most cases a boat with a half to 2/3 load will be safer. With this load the AVS and the final stability will not be yet much compromised and the boat would have a bigger positive stability and a bigger max righting moment.

But take care, when you approach the max load the final stability starts to be compromised and will be compromised if you go further than what the NA stated as a max load to the boat.

On the jeanneau boat manual (as in any other boat manual) they advise specifically on the safety precautions:

*The boat shall not be loaded more with than the maximum load recommended by the builder, in particular the total weight of the food supplies, of the different equipment that are not supplied by the builder and of the persons on board. *

If you will pass the Max load, that in this boat should be of about 5000 lb over the unloaded weight , the value of the AVS will decrease rapidly as the one from the final stability and you will have a boat with a compromised stability and not a safe boat to sail.

...


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## Melrna

Great write-up. Love this kind of information.


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## PCP

Thanks Melrna, nice to know.

I have enjoyed this movie about Lazarote, Canary Islands posted by Voile and Voiliers:

*Movie:*

Lanzarote : du vent, des vagues et des volcans...

That's in French and I guess that a fair number understand French but even for the ones that don't understand the images are self explanatory.

Some hints for the ones that can't get much of what is said: Sunsail has there several First 40 for advanced sailing courses. There are also a nice charter company (at least the girl is pretty) with Dufour 40 (nice boat) that you can sail from Lazarote and leave at any other Island (for 300€ more), the Marinas are incredibly inexpensive and that's a sailing paradise:

Almost 25K wind all the time with water at 20º in winter.

That's why you see lot's of big racing boats there. The place is perfect for training. Nice places to stay on anchor too, if you don't mind the wind.

...


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## PCP

The new 50ft cruising boat from Elan, the 494, designed as usual by Rob Humphreys:














































Rob knows how to do good seaworthy cruisers but I guess that it is not enough these days. The boat looks heavy and a bit fat. I don't think it is going to be a match to several other 50ft on the market. The interior is functional but unimaginative and quite stark. The bad quality of the renderings is not helping either.

I don't see easy times ahead for Elan. Yes they have beautiful 31ft and 35ft performance boats but most of the sales used to be with the cruising line...and I cannot sea where they are heading, with the 394 and this one.


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## myocean

Hey Guys,

my last post, quite a while ago, has been about multihulls. I am still convinced they are the right solution for my plans.

A brand new model has just been put into the water - this is a great design, isn't it?

Ulf


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## myocean

and this is inside...


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## PCP

Great boat Ulf...but are you really considering a cat of that size? That's huge and it will cost what? 2 million?

Perhaps you want to consider something really different?

Look at this:




































































































Regards

Paulo


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## myocean

Well, ok, this is a bit huge - you are absolutely right. 
But I like the design!
By the way - its the new Outremer 5x!


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## daviid

*Hanse 350*

Hi Paulo

Well after a long search, I have finally made up my mind. My model for purchasing a boat is somewhat different to the way most folk have purchased their boat on this forum although I may be wrong 

My personal circumstances find me very much still trying to earn a living which means that the time I am able to spend sailing is more limited than someone who is retired. In addition, the cruising opportunities are quite limited in Cape Town unless you like Force7/8 winds with very little place to go. Sailing in Cape Town is therefore dominated by round- the-can racing on Wednesdays and weekends (weather permitting) which is fine for occasional racing but not so good for cruising. If it were any different, then you can be sure that Sunsail and Moorings would have a base here.

So, how to satisfy a passion for sailing with limited time and limited opportunity on your doorstep without spending a disproportionate amount of money? My model for yacht ownership has therefore become DIY fractional ownership of a second hand yacht kept in a non VAT paying jurisdiction. This model has a number of advantages and some disadvantages.

First the advantages:
•	The capital cost is split between 3 owners in agreed shares
•	The monthly running expenses are shared in the same proportion - this would cover marina costs, maintenance, insurance, licencing etc;
•	Any improvements to the yacht are funded by the partners in proportion to their share - after prior agreement by all the owners of course;
•	Each owner has a responsibility - there is a bosun, an accountant and a manager with clearly defined responsibilities - hence the do-it-yourself (DIY) nature of the consortium as opposed to having a syndicate manager;
•	With only 3 partners and a sailing season in most Med countries of around 24 weeks, I will have 8 weeks of sailing which can be taken at any time during the sailing season and by agreement with the other owners; as a 1/3 owner, i would of course have the right to use the boat outside of the sailing season as well;
•	This arrangement is a massive saving over chartering for a similar period even if one takes into account depreciation which would be significant on a new yacht but far more limited for a second hand yacht.

Now for the disadvantages 
•	The nature of shared ownership means that you are forced to compromise over usage, improvements, location of the yacht now and in the future;
•	The yacht will be used by other owners although there is an owners agreement that is similar to a shareholder's agreement that ensures the yacht is kept in the best possible condition; 3 owners having a vested interest in the upkeep and improvement of their yacht is a world away from giving your boat to a charter company for charter; most owners agreements specifically exclude chartering 
• Shared ownership implies having co-owners who may have different values although I am told that this is more a problem in theory than in practice from those who have been involved in a number of consortia in the past;
•	The choice of second hand boat is limited to what is available in the fractional share market at the time unless you are willing to fund the purchase of a second hand boat yourself and then look for co-owners afterwards - obviously a riskier strategy. 
•	You could of course decide to buy a new boat of your choice and then seek fellow owners who share your vision of what is ideal as a cruiser/racer - 
again a riskier strategy;

The choice of a second hand yacht kept in a non VAT paying jurisdiction with 2 other fellow owners seemed to make the most sense to me as my first foray into yacht ownership given my own circumstances. The cost benefit is obvious given that a relatively new second hand yacht should trade at around a 30% discount to the new discounted price with the added benefit of not paying VAT either.

So much for the background.

I have just concluded the purchase of a third share of a well specified 2008 Hanse 350 with 120 hours on the engine. The current model is the Hanse 355 which includes a more traditional layout down below, a slightly longer V-berth and a revised swimming platform - it is the same boat in almost all other respects. The boat will be used for coastal cruising in Croatia until we decide to re-locate it which my fellow owners are open to. I love the look of the boat which I find to be very European. I would have preferred a nicer bathing platform and twin wheels which some of the newer models have. The Dufour 335 immediately springs to mind.

As you know, I have long been a fan of Hanse's - my first post on Interesting sailboats asked your opinion of a Hanse 375. They also have a very strong owners forum which confirms that they are owned by enthusiasts.

The Hanse brand's ethos is:

"Fast, easy to handle yachts, which actually belong to the category of safe ocean voyagers and are quick enough to win races as well"

The emphasis at Hanse in terms of where the money is spent is on the hull and the rig with less money spent on the interiors. This probably explains why so many are bought by Scandinavians who are not able to afford the much more expensive yachts built in their own countries. The design is by Judel and Vrolijk who have a strong racing pedigree most famous for their design of Alinghi, winner of the Americas cup. They also design Najad and Baltic yachts amongst others.

These are its vital statistics:
LOA 10.59 m | 34´7˝
Hull length 10.50 m | 34´4˝
LWL 9.60 m | 31´5˝
Beam 3.55 m | 11´6˝
Draft 1.92 m | 6´3˝ (standard)
Displacement approx. 6.36 t | approx. 14,021 lb
Ballast approx. 1,845 kg | approx. 4,068 lb (standard)
Engine 16.2 kW / 22 HP Yanmar saildrive
Fresh water approx. 240 l
Fuel tank approx. 120 l
CE Certificate A (ocean)
Mast length above WL approx. 16.43 m | approx. 53´9˝
Total sail area approx. 64.86 m2 | approx. 698 sq ft
Main sail approx. 35.25 m2 | approx. 379 sq ft
Self-tacking jib approx. 29.61 m2 | approx. 319 sq ft
Design judel / vrolijk & co

My comments on the Hanse 350 are as follows:

•	Waterline length
o	LWL vs LOA - modern design with very little overhang fore and aft which maximises maximum waterline length which should translate into improved speed

•	Hull 
o quite beamy with beam carried all the way back - should result in good downwind performance - L/B - 3.0 which is not excessive by modern standards; (Oceanis 37 - 2.93)
o	Fine point of entry should contribute to good upwind performance;
o	Strong form stability
o	Hull is hand landed. Epoxy based vinylester resin is added as a top layer with the final gelcoat on top of that. Hull is solid laminate up to the waterline then foam cored up the deck. The deck is a balsa sandwich
o	All bulkheads are structurally bonded not spot bonded as is the case with some French producers;
o	There is a glass fibre matrix bonded to the hull around the keel which forms a ring frame to which the rigging is tied and which also picks up loads from the keel. The 2 fore and aft stiffening members either side of the centreline are filled with resin as are the transverse members that join them. The others are hollow and limbered to allow any bilge water to run through. 
o	At 6.4 tons, the Hanse 350 is not the lightest boat around. The re-inforcements detailed above no doubt contribute to this. The downside is that she may suffer a little in lightwind performance although current owners say differently particularly when fitted with an overlapping genoa. The upside is that she will feel more solid in a sea. The epoxy version is not available in the smaller sizes. (The Oceanis 37 which is 11.5m weighs 6.5 tons.) D/L - 200 (Oceanis 37 - 162)

•	Keel shape and rudder
o	Iron keel with torpedo shape resulting in low centre of gravity - B/D - 29% (not adjusted for low COG) - ; B/D for Oceanis 37 is 27.2% which has a spade keel;
o	This together with strong from stability should make the boat stiff;
o	A draft of 1.92m should not pose too many problems in a non-tidal area like Croatia and should mean good performance to windward particularly with the self tacker which you can sheet in very tightly. 
o	Deep rudder with rod and pinion system which has no play or creaking. The rudder is made from weight saving aluminium with self aligning bearings which apparently makes the steering lighter and more responsive - we shall see.

•	The rig
o	A modern high aspect rig design with a large mainsail and a small self tacking headsail as standard;
o	The mast is tapered for performance tuning via an adjustable backstay;
o	What is interesting is that on the H350, the shrouds are inside next to the coachroof which enables you to mount a 140% genoa. The upgraded H355 has the shrouds on the gunwale which limits this to 105%; (the Oceanis 37 has the shrouds on the gunwale which can accept a 105% genoa)
o	The mast is supported by 2 sets of spreaders with continuous diagonals that allow for easy adjustment - typically found on racing boats but not that often on cruisers;
o	Standard sails are from North with a SA/D of 19.2 with the self tacker and 22.1 with a 140% genoa (Oceanis 37 - 19.4 with 105% genoa). The polars for the boat show that from 12knots TWS and up, there is no penalty for using the self tacker;
o	Given it's weight and the sail set up I would imagine that the boat will come into it own in winds that are over 10knots. In lighter winds, i would imagine that a large overlapping genoa will be needed with an assymetrical a must for downwind sailing.

•	Interior
o	One can only imagine that there was more criticism for the assymetrical layout in the H350 with en suite heads upfront which has resulted in a change in the H355 which has the heads aft and a more symmetrical layout in the saloon;
o	Having said that I like the look of the layout in the H350 and am not planning to use oilskins which then have to be hauled through the saloon before being stored in the heads;
o The downside in the new H355 layout is that the heads are slightly smaller than in the H350 and the saloon area is also slightly smaller;
o	With a high freeboard, the minimum head room is in the V-berth at 1.85m which means I can stand up straight 
o	We have the lighter more expensive cherry wood option in our boat which I must say that I prefer to the more traditional mahogany look - with the more expensive white cushions which also look pretty cool

•	Cruising capability
o	Great size cockpit for a 35 footer - apparently bigger than the cockpit on the Hanse 375 on account of the twin wheel layout;
o	There are many options for Hanse owners to choose from including whether the traveller is in the cockpit or on the coachroof . This boat has the traveller on the coachroof. I will need to explore the option of mounting the mainsheet to a single point in the cockpit with a block and tackle and fine tuner along the lines of the Dufour 335 with my fellow owners  A few other Hanse owners have this dual set up which looks interesting.
o	With a water tank of 240l and fuel of 120l, this is adequate for the coastal cruising we will do;
o	Also the size of the boat is very similar to the Jeanneau 36i that we sailed in last year in October which we found perfectly suitable for a couple and would easily handle another 2 people for a week at a time - (J36i hull length - 10.69m vs 10.5m and beam 3.59m vs 3.55m)

•	Stability/safety
o	Practical Boat Owner published the following info in the March 2008 edition:
	Stix - 37;
	AVS - 133 (118.2 per ORC)
	Maximum righting moment - 53;
o	Looking at the hull shape, the way the hull has been designed and the keel design, I would say that the boat will be safe and stiff - B/D (not adjusted) - 29%.

PBO concluded - Where the 350 stands out is in being fast, responsive and fun to sail and in most obvious respects, sensibly built.

What I found interesting in finally making a decision are the mixed emotions one has. On the one hand, I am happy with my decision for all the reasons I have given. On the other hand, having finally made the choice, I now feel limited as I know there are so many other options out there that one could make a case for - I don't think one can honestly say that there is a yacht that is the ONE. I am sure that you have probably had similar emotions?

All the best

David

Ps - Not me in the picture - a proud owner from the Hanse Owners forum  A great view of the keel and the rudder though.


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> Well, ok, this is a bit huge - you are absolutely right.
> But I like the design!
> By the way - its the new Outremer 5x!


Outremer Catamaran - Our Catamarans - Outremer 5X

Yes I know, it is a great boat as I have said. There are more great cats of that size as the Gunboat 60, the Alibi 55, the Sig 60, Tag 60 and some more but I guess that for two the Outremer 49 would be more than enough.





Alibi - Catamaran manufacturer - Constructeur de catamarans - Catalibi

High Performance Multihull Sailing Yachts, Gunboat Luxury Catamarans

Tag Yacht Sales

Young Yacht Design

Multihulls, Sailing and Motor boats | Barramundi boats

SIG60

Anyway if I was on that price range I would look also at a very special monohull that is for sale, The Ourson rapide, a boat that is already a mythic boat and also a very fast boat, probably more easy to sail alone then a big cat. I know, the asked price is big but I would not be surprised if the boat was sold by 50% less. Bad time for selling used boats, good time to buy










OURSON RAPIDE Boat for sale

Ourson Rapide | finot-conq architectes navals

Personally If i was in out position, if I had the money to buy the boat I could chose to circumnavigate, I would buy this one:






Fast and strong enough for me, not to mention that is a very easy and safe boat to sail solo even in very bad weather and with a more comfortable sea motion, I mean, in bad weather.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> ...
> •	The nature of shared ownership means that you are forced to compromise over usage, improvements, location of the yacht now and in the future;
> ..
> ...
> I have just concluded the purchase of a third share of a well specified 2008 Hanse 350 with 120 hours on the engine. ... The boat will be used for coastal cruising in Croatia until we decide to re-locate it which my fellow owners are open to. I love the look of the boat which I find to be very European.....
> 
> As you know, I have long been a fan of Hanse's - my first post on Interesting sailboats asked your opinion of a Hanse 375. They also have a very strong owners forum which confirms that they are owned by enthusiasts.
> 
> The Hanse brand's ethos is:
> 
> "Fast, easy to handle yachts, which actually belong to the category of safe ocean voyagers and are quick enough to win races as well"
> 
> The emphasis at Hanse in terms of where the money is spent is on the hull and the rig with less money spent on the interiors. This probably explains why so many are bought by Scandinavians who are not able to afford the much more expensive yachts built in their own countries. The design is by Judel and Vrolijk who have a strong racing pedigree most famous for their design of Alinghi, winner of the Americas cup. ..
> 
> These are its vital statistics:
> LOA 10.59 m | 34´7˝
> Hull length 10.50 m | 34´4˝
> LWL 9.60 m | 31´5˝
> Beam 3.55 m | 11´6˝
> Draft 1.92 m | 6´3˝ (standard)
> Displacement approx. 6.36 t | approx. 14,021 lb
> Ballast approx. 1,845 kg | approx. 4,068 lb (standard)
> Engine 16.2 kW / 22 HP Yanmar saildrive
> Fresh water approx. 240 l
> Fuel tank approx. 120 l
> CE Certificate A (ocean)
> Mast length above WL approx. 16.43 m | approx. 53´9˝
> Total sail area approx. 64.86 m2 | approx. 698 sq ft
> ....
> 
> My comments on the Hanse 350 are as follows:
> 
> •	Waterline length
> o	LWL vs LOA - modern design with very little overhang fore and aft which maximises maximum waterline length which should translate into improved speed
> 
> •	Hull
> o quite beamy with beam carried all the way back - should result in good downwind performance - L/B - 3.0 which is not excessive by modern standards; (Oceanis 37 - 2.93)
> o	Fine point of entry should contribute to good upwind performance;
> o	Strong form stability
> o	Hull is hand landed. Epoxy based vinylester resin is added as a top layer with the final gelcoat on top of that. Hull is solid laminate up to the waterline then foam cored up the deck. The deck is a balsa sandwich
> o	All bulkheads are structurally bonded not spot bonded as is the case with some French producers;
> o	There is a glass fibre matrix bonded to the hull around the keel which forms a ring frame to which the rigging is tied and which also picks up loads from the keel. The 2 fore and aft stiffening members either side of the centreline are filled with resin as are the transverse members that join them. The others are hollow and limbered to allow any bilge water to run through.
> o	At 6.4 tons, the Hanse 350 is not the lightest boat around. The re-inforcements detailed above no doubt contribute to this. The downside is that she may suffer a little in lightwind performance although current owners say differently particularly when fitted with an overlapping genoa. The upside is that she will feel more solid in a sea. The epoxy version is not available in the smaller sizes. (The Oceanis 37 which is 11.5m weighs 6.5 tons.) D/L - 200 (Oceanis 37 - 162)
> 
> •	Keel shape and rudder
> o	Iron keel with torpedo shape resulting in low centre of gravity - B/D - 29% (not adjusted for low COG) - ; B/D for Oceanis 37 is 27.2% which has a spade keel;
> o	This together with strong from stability should make the boat stiff;
> o	A draft of 1.92m should not pose too many problems in a non-tidal area like Croatia and should mean good performance to windward particularly with the self tacker which you can sheet in very tightly.
> o	Deep rudder with rod and pinion system which has no play or creaking. The rudder is made from weight saving aluminium with self aligning bearings which apparently makes the steering lighter and more responsive - we shall see.
> 
> •	The rig
> o	A modern high aspect rig design with a large mainsail and a small self tacking headsail as standard;
> o	The mast is tapered for performance tuning via an adjustable backstay;
> o	What is interesting is that on the H350, the shrouds are inside next to the coachroof which enables you to mount a 140% genoa. The upgraded H355 has the shrouds on the gunwale which limits this to 105%; (the Oceanis 37 has the shrouds on the gunwale which can accept a 105% genoa)
> o	The mast is supported by 2 sets of spreaders with continuous diagonals that allow for easy adjustment - typically found on racing boats but not that often on cruisers;
> o	Standard sails are from North with a SA/D of 19.2 with the self tacker and 22.1 with a 140% genoa (Oceanis 37 - 19.4 with 105% genoa). The polars for the boat show that from 12knots TWS and up, there is no penalty for using the self tacker;
> o	Given it's weight and the sail set up I would imagine that the boat will come into it own in winds that are over 10knots. In lighter winds, i would imagine that a large overlapping genoa will be needed with an assymetrical a must for downwind sailing.
> 
> •	Interior
> o	One can only imagine that there was more criticism for the assymetrical layout in the H350 with en suite heads upfront which has resulted in a change in the H355 which has the heads aft and a more symmetrical layout in the saloon;
> o	Having said that I like the look of the layout in the H350 and am not planning to use oilskins which then have to be hauled through the saloon before being stored in the heads;
> o The downside in the new H355 layout is that the heads are slightly smaller than in the H350 and the saloon area is also slightly smaller;
> o	With a high freeboard, the minimum head room is in the V-berth at 1.85m which means I can stand up straight
> o	We have the lighter more expensive cherry wood option in our boat which I must say that I prefer to the more traditional mahogany look - with the more expensive white cushions which also look pretty cool
> 
> •	Cruising capability
> o	Great size cockpit for a 35 footer - apparently bigger than the cockpit on the Hanse 375 on account of the twin wheel layout;
> o	There are many options for Hanse owners to choose from including whether the traveller is in the cockpit or on the coachroof . This boat has the traveller on the coachroof. I will need to explore the option of mounting the mainsheet to a single point in the cockpit with a block and tackle and fine tuner along the lines of the Dufour 335 with my fellow owners  A few other Hanse owners have this dual set up which looks interesting.
> o	With a water tank of 240l and fuel of 120l, this is adequate for the coastal cruising we will do;
> o	Also the size of the boat is very similar to the Jeanneau 36i that we sailed in last year in October which we found perfectly suitable for a couple and would easily handle another 2 people for a week at a time - (J36i hull length - 10.69m vs 10.5m and beam 3.59m vs 3.55m)
> 
> •	Stability/safety
> o	Practical Boat Owner published the following info in the March 2008 edition:
> 	Stix - 37;
> 	AVS - 133 (118.2 per ORC)
> 	Maximum righting moment - 53;
> o	Looking at the hull shape, the way the hull has been designed and the keel design, I would say that the boat will be safe and stiff - B/D (not adjusted) - 29%.
> 
> PBO concluded - Where the 350 stands out is in being fast, responsive and fun to sail and in most obvious respects, sensibly built.
> 
> What I found interesting in finally making a decision are the mixed emotions one has. On the one hand, I am happy with my decision for all the reasons I have given. On the other hand, having finally made the choice, I now feel limited as I know there are so many other options out there that one could make a case for - I don't think one can honestly say that there is a yacht that is the ONE. I am sure that you have probably had similar emotions?
> 
> All the best
> 
> David


Hi David,

Congratulations






The Hanse 350 is a nice boat with a performance keel and a particularly good stability. The 118AVS ORC means a boat with a very good final stability.

As you say a bit heavy, as all German boats but you can always use a geenaker on light winds.

You will not have any problem regarding draft in Croatia with a 2.0m draft boat. Last summer I sailed there with a 2.70m draft boat and I was surprised to see that this is not a problem in Croatia.

However you will only be able to stay there till next year. If you stay there you will pay a 23% Vat tax on the value of the boat. I strongly advise you to look now for and adequate place to put the boat next year because there are a lot of guys doing the same (all the guys that have the boats in Croatia with non paid VAT and they are a lot). As I was considering doing something very similar (without the shared ownership) I have studied the situation and the logical place to leave the boat next year is Turkey. But pay attention they demand boats with a black water tank. Places there are going to be very difficult to find. The best I could find was on the Turkish part of Cyprus. Nice price, very good protection and very near of the Turkish coasts.

As I have said here several times, for me the only negative aspect of the Hanses is the Ikea interior and it is not even the quality of the material, more a design fault.

Truth is that if I cannot get the boat I want, one of the boats I was considering was an almost new epoxy Hanse 430. I don't like the interior but the boat offers solidity and decent sailing for a good price.

Anyway with a shared ownership it is almost good that the interior is not a very nice one otherwise you would be appalled with the damage made by other owners.

I sailed last year 15 days on the previous version of that boat and it was already a solid and stiff boat. The family protested that our Bavaria was better, but solid any way, with some oddities.

Maybe we can drink a beer together: If the survey is alright I will buy next week a boat near Trieste, on the Adriatic coast not far from Croatia.

Where are you going to have the boat in Croatia? Probably the boat has already a place but If it is of any use to you, I have already made a search for that and the best place I could find was on the Mandalina Marina, near Sibenick (best price, nice city and the possibility of having the boat on the hard or on the water for almost the same price).

Again, Congratulations and have fun!

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Having been away for most of the time since late December I'm only now catching up with this astonishing thread. How on earth you manage to gather all this material Paulo, is quite beyond me, but kudos to you for doing so and for posting it. Thank you.


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Thanks mate. Well from sheer frustation of not be able to put my life in order, I mean the boat, the boat project and some things regarding to my professional work. I have been forced to pratically sit still while things come in place. I am an action guy, I have to do something otherwise I got mad so I am been doing this. It is an ocupational therapy as any other.
> 
> It seems that in some short time I will be able to go forward with my live and let this thread more to the other posters that have contributed to it, you included
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,
I dropped away from this thread (other than as a reader) once we bought our new girl so I understand where you are coming from. Now I'm spending more time out and about and not having spend so much time looking around.

ps - good people you might notice there is a missing link in one of Paulo's posts. For some reason that link seemed to try and hijack the page so I removed it. Apologies if that made the post confusing.


----------



## PCP

Hey guys, look at this beauty:










Who would say this is a 33ft boat? And a new brand in this crisis time, one that is not afraid to be different:





































The brand is Vector and it is German...but the boats will be made in Poland.

The technical characteristics are very interesting:
*
"the V10 offers a full epoxy - foam - sandwich hull build in vacuum infusion for light weight, increased rigidity and high durability. This also ensures great value stability.

Special attention has been paid to the design and construction of modern hull lines with orientation on state of the art racing yachts. Her powerful wide transom, the chined Hull and her T shaped keel give the Vector 10 great stability which ensures comfortable fast sailing.

The high stability makes the Vector 10 easy to handle for cruising families or small Crews and will be exhilarating for crews on race courses.

The Vector 10 offers the interior layout of a much bigger Yacht. The composite interior is durable, light and bright.

The interior design of the Vector 10 reflects modern simplicity and has accents that resemble the interior of a luxury private jet. Thanks to the large side windows and the 6 openable flush hatches in the cabin roof, the V10 interior offers plenty of daylight and great ventilation.

The Vector 10 will start at 99.900€ inkl. German VAT of 19%." *

LoA
Width 3,30 m/11 ft
Depth 2/1,60 m, 6.6/5.2 ft
Total Weight ca. 3600 kg/ca. 8000 lb
Keel 1400 kg/3086 lb
Mainsail 36 m²/398.5 ft²
Genoa 26 m²/279.9 ft²
Code 0 48 m²/516.7 ft²
Gennaker asym 98 m²/1054.9 ft²
Inboard Motor 16 HP/11,9 kW

I like it, I like the idea, I like the hull and I like the B/D ratio. I am going to follow this one. It seems to be a very interesting project&#8230;and the price seems right for an hi-tech epoxy boat


----------



## PCP

The Vendee Globe is the big Adventure for Professionals, for Amateurs it is the Transquadra.

Look at these guys:

Transquadra 2011

And on this movie from the first leg, France to Madeira, we can appreciate the joy of sailing a light and fast boat day after day on the blue ocean. These guys are having a lot of fun and are really making me envious. I am the only one?






They are on the second leg now, between Madeira and Martinique on their JPK 110, running in 4th and with a good possibility of conquering a podium. Good luck to them


----------



## PCP

Beautiful presentation of the "Tjorn Runt" the classic race on the Swedish Archipelago.

Really incredible setting and a huge variety of boats. I have to say that the Nordic have a great taste for nice sailboats and we can see here a lot of them.


----------



## PCP

Boats are not only for sail, some are more for living and the sailing comes as a way of moving the boat. If you want to maximize a boat for sailing the living space will be on the short size and if you maximize it for living then the sailing will not be good, just not too bad is good enough

That's about one of those boats that I am going to post, one that is made for living aboard, the Haber 34, another one that made its premiere at Dusseldorf. The boat is so new that is not even finished, but look at all interior space in a 34ft boat









































































The truth is that this kind of boats are always expensive and this one is no exception. It costs 276 000 Euros with 19% German Vat but the truth is that this brand has its followers. For European Standards this a small cruiser but for Haber lovers this is a huge one. Look at their other boats:


----------



## Faster

Interesting solution to the Vang issue with large deckhouses..... but the tackle must have some power unless it's hydraulic..


----------



## PCP

I have already posted about the Malango, a very interesting boat. A nice movie about the 9.9:


----------



## opc11

Paulo,

In that Transquadra clip (post 2204), there's a quick glimpse of someone marking the spreaders with tape. Do you know the reason for doing this?

Thanks for making living on the hard a bit less painful. 

Regards,


----------



## PCP

opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> In that Transquadra clip (post 2204), there's a quick glimpse of someone marking the spreaders with tape. Do you know the reason for doing this?
> 
> Regards,












The guy is putting a foam protection to prevent the mainsail to be harmed when put hard against the spreader while running downwind, or at least is what seems to me.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

And talking about the Transquadra, the front pack is just arriving:










Unless they broke something the victory on the duo crewed boats is not going to escape to Chanu and Peclard on a A35 but for second is a hot race with 3 boats very close, an A31, an A35 and precisely the JPK 110 that is on that movie.

Great race for all of them specially for the Franco Spanish team on the little A31 that is a big contender for the victory in compensated time. Well, anyway the boat name is Vitoria and that means Victory in Spanish

On solo big fight for the victory between a JPK 10.10 and a SunFast 32. Those two, Vicariot and Hamon made a fantastic race leaving all the other Solo sailors behind and are among the best duo crews. In fact they are 6th and 7th on a global classification. Chapeau

Tomorrow we should have movies of them coming to port.


----------



## Faster

opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> In that Transquadra clip (post 2204), there's a quick glimpse of someone marking the spreaders with tape. Do you know the reason for doing this?
> 
> Regards,


If you mark the spreaders at, say, 2 inch intervals it's easier to estimate clearance between a headsail and the spreader tip..it's a sailtrim aid.


----------



## EricKLYC

Faster said:


> If you mark the spreaders at, say, 2 inch intervals it's easier to estimate clearance between a headsail and the spreader tip..it's a sailtrim aid.


A very efficient tuning trick, that of course only works with non overlapping headsails .


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> If the survey is alright I will buy next week a boat near Trieste, on the Adriatic coast not far from Croatia.


Please keep us updated Paulo.
I'm certainly not the only one being very curious about your final choice!


----------



## PCP

I leave tomorrow for Italy. I have already saw the boat and I like the condition as well as the owner. The survey is just to see if everything is all right as I hope it will be. You can see the boat here:






Well, there is more boats on that race,I will give you some clews:

1- Ir is not the Alfa-Romeo
2- It is a 40ft boat (a bit bigger)
3- It is a 2007 boat
4- The boat is still in production
5- It is a relatively fast boat
6- It has a good cruising interior

Let's see who is going to hit the nail first

I will be all week in Italy, I will go with my daughter and I will be showing her some of my favorite places so I will not post, or just post occasionally.

It is your thread, your's and of all that have been posting or are following almost every day. Post at will and try not to post ugly boats

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Just a last post with the movies of the two first duo crews to arrive at Martinique, on the Transquadra.

The first team was as expected Chanu and Peclard on a A35 and the second to arrive, winning that hot race for 2th, the French/Spanish team, Pintos - Lemière on the small A31, Chapeau to both teams:





Arrivée du 216 Thinkanalytics _por overlapprod_





Arrivée de 233 Victoria. Pintos Ager - Lemière... _por overlapprod_

The three first solos have already arrived. Fantastic race from the three that come separated by 3 hours, each of them separated by 1 hour. If we consider a single classification the first solo arrived in 6th , the second in 7th and the third on 9th. The first one was Vicariot on a JPK 1010 , the second was Hamon on a SunFast 3200 and the third was Peraud and he has made a fantastic result with an older boat, a JOD 35, a 1991 design by Daniel Andrieu. The Jod is also a jeanneau and curiously Daniel Andrieu is also the designer of the SF 3200. Chapeau to Daniel Also

AndrieuDesign - Achievements - Sail - Racing sailboats


----------



## Faster

..... I missed something along the way, Paulo.. I thought a Salona was in your sights.

So I'm going with the X-41 (WAG)


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> ..... I missed something along the way, Paulo.. I thought a Salona was in your sights.
> 
> So I'm going with the X-41 (WAG)


Yes, but in the end a problem with tax (VAT) made it impossible for me to buy a new boat, that in that case would have been a Salona 38. The budget was not enough, so I had to turn to the used market and probably was not a bad idea because the market right now is bad for selling but good for buying.

No, it is not a X-41. That is a fantastic boat but the interior is very poor for crusing. The one that was a good cruising interior is the X-40.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

PCP said:


> Hi David,
> 
> Congratulations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Hanse 350 is a nice boat with a performance keel and a particularly good stability. The 118AVS ORC means a boat with a very good final stability.
> 
> As you say a bit heavy, as all German boats but you can always use a geenaker on light winds.
> 
> You will not have any problem regarding draft in Croatia with a 2.0m draft boat. Last summer I sailed there with a 2.70m draft boat and I was surprised to see that this is not a problem in Croatia.
> 
> However you will only be able to stay there till next year. If you stay there you will pay a 23% Vat tax on the value of the boat. I strongly advise you to look now for and adequate place to put the boat next year because there are a lot of guys doing the same (all the guys that have the boats in Croatia with non paid VAT and they are a lot). As I was considering doing something very similar (without the shared ownership) I have studied the situation and the logical place to leave the boat next year is Turkey. But pay attention they demand boats with a black water tank. Places there are going to be very difficult to find. The best I could find was on the Turkish part of Cyprus. Nice price, very good protection and very near of the Turkish coasts.
> 
> As I have said here several times, for me the only negative aspect of the Hanses is the Ikea interior and it is not even the quality of the material, more a design fault.
> 
> Truth is that if I cannot get the boat I want, one of the boats I was considering was an almost new epoxy Hanse 430. I don't like the interior but the boat offers solidity and decent sailing for a good price.
> 
> Anyway with a shared ownership it is almost good that the interior is not a very nice one otherwise you would be appalled with the damage made by other owners.
> 
> I sailed last year 15 days on the previous version of that boat and it was already a solid and stiff boat. The family protested that our Bavaria was better, but solid any way, with some oddities.
> 
> Maybe we can drink a beer together: If the survey is alright I will buy next week a boat near Trieste, on the Adriatic coast not far from Croatia.
> 
> Where are you going to have the boat in Croatia? Probably the boat has already a place but If it is of any use to you, I have already made a search for that and the best place I could find was on the Mandalina Marina, near Sibenick (best price, nice city and the possibility of having the boat on the hard or on the water for almost the same price).
> 
> Again, Congratulations and have fun!
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

Have Croatia really decided to join the EU? I understood that they had the option to join in 2013 but that most folk were betting that they wouldn't due to the crisis in Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain etc etc. Even if they do decide to join the EU, then would it not be likely that they would phase the VAT in as Crete did some time ago at 6%? Anyway we will be faced with an interesting decision - I came very close to doing a deal on a yacht in Gocek, Turkey which was where I originally wanted to go. So maybe I'll be heading there sooner rather than later  By the way, the H350 has a black water tank, even if it is a bit small -50litres.

The boat is currently lying in Marina Dalmaciya in Sukosan, Zadar but we will be sailing the boat to its new marina in March which will be on the island of Brac at the marina in Milna. A really nice town on the island which is connected to Split by many ferries and which is really good value - you have probably been there - I was there last year. It is also a good central location for heading North or South to explore Croatia.

Good luck on your trip for your next boat. It would be great to meet up with you - as you say Trieste is not far away.

David


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> Have Croatia really decided to join the EU? I understood that they had the option to join in 2013 but that most folk were betting that they wouldn't due to the crisis in Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain etc etc. Even if they do decide to join the EU, then would it not be likely that they would phase the VAT in as Crete did some time ago at 6%? Anyway we will be faced with an interesting decision - I came very close to doing a deal on a yacht in Gocek, Turkey which was where I originally wanted to go. So maybe I'll be heading there sooner rather than later  By the way, the H350 has a black water tank, even if it is a bit small -50litres.
> 
> The boat is currently lying in Marina Dalmaciya in Sukosan, Zadar but we will be sailing the boat to its new marina in March which will be on the island of Brac at the marina in Milna. A really nice town on the island which is connected to Split by many ferries and which is really good value - you have probably been there - I was there last year. It is also a good central location for heading North or South to explore Croatia.
> 
> Good luck on your trip for your next boat. It would be great to meet up with you - as you say Trieste is not far away.
> 
> David


You have all information here:

Croatia EU Accession VAT - Information Pool - Yachting and Boating World Forums

Yes I know Milna Marina. I have chose Mandalina Marina over Milna because in Milna they have not many places out of the water and it is expensive to have boats ou of the water there. On Mandalina marina you can have the boat in the water or out of water on the same contract and you only pay more 10% if the boat is out of water.

I prefer to have the boat out of the water in the winter not only because the wind can be quite nasty there but also to dry up the boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## philmo

PCP said:


> Well, there is more boats on that race,I will give you some clews:
> 
> 1- Ir is not the Alfa-Romeo
> 2- It is a 40ft boat (a bit bigger)
> 3- It is a 2007 boat
> 4- The boat is still in production
> 5- It is a relatively fast boat
> 6- It has a good cruising interior
> 
> Let's see who is going to hit the nail first


There was only a Maxi, Swan and Comet Class in the Rolex Capri Sailing Week 2008 so it must be a Comet 41S or a Swan 42. Since the Swan 42 doesn't have a good cruising interior it is a Comet 41S, right? Wow, what a great boat.

Regards,
Philipp


----------



## PCP

philmo said:


> There was only a Maxi, Swan and Comet Class in the Rolex Capri Sailing Week 2008 so it must be a Comet 41S or a Swan 42. Since the Swan 42 doesn't have a good cruising interior it is a Comet 41S, right? Wow, what a great boat.
> 
> Regards,
> Philipp


Now that is an impressive first post!

Welcome to the thread and to sailnet.

Yes you are right, it is a Comet 41s.




















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Look at this Bongo 9,60 arriving 4th on the Transaquadra. Very nice boat. The Bongo is the mono Keel version of the more known Olea, that is a fast twin keel. I have posted here already about the Olea.

http://www.oleacomposite.com/#





 296 Suleika. Maurizzi Sastre. Bongo. 13h53'19" _por overlapprod_

And look at this couple arriving on a SF 3200. They seem they are just coming back of a day on a nice anchorage. Great style.





293 williwaw _por overlapprod_


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Now that is an impressive first post!
> 
> Welcome to the thread and to sailnet.
> 
> Yes you are right, it is a Comet 41s.


Very impressive indeed, Philipp!

I perfectly recognise Paulo in the Comet 41S. A seaworthy design with sleek lines, high quality design, excellent upwind performance and a classic interior.

This one looks very well maintained so you will not need to spend the next few years sanding and varnishing all that woodwork, Paulo  .

Crossing fingers for a perfect survey so we can congratulate you very soon!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

From Voiles & Voiliers: we know the French especially like the light and beamy "open" designs, but these get terrible IRC ratings so they are quite useless for handicap racing.
Marsaudon Composites in Lorient decided they wanted to do something about it and recently launched their first MC 34 Patton, named after the associated watchmaker, optimized for IRC.

Have a look at the basic figures:
10.50m (9.15 waterline) x 3.46m x 1.99m
3650 kg (1.900 kg ballast, > 50%!)
67m2 upwind

Estimated TCC is between 1.055 and 1.058

It has an inverted deck line to save weight in the extremities and create a little more headroom below decks without raising the roof too much. But no bulb in the leaded keel and only one pair of spreaders on the carbon mast to reduce the rating.
The hull is composite with glass reinforced infused vinylester and thermoformed foam, painted without a formal gelcoat layer.

At first glance the interior looks quite comfortable for a boat with definite racing ambitions, although the small, centered chart table looks very racy but quite useless.

Add a carbon mast and boom and this light boat will lift you about € 215.000, I presume without sails . But then you also get an personalized Patton clock and watch :laugher.

Light but well ballasted and with a sharply chined, beamy hull, this looks like a very powerful design. Wait and see what it will do around the buoys, especially when the prices are handed out .


Van Drop Box


Van Drop Box

Marsaudon Composites - Lorient - MC34 PATTON

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## myocean

Hi Paulo!
I read your post about buying new or old and the VAT issue.
Thinking about buying a new one or a use one - what do you think about buying the number 1 of a new model from a boat yard with a very good reputation (eg X-Yachts, Pogo or so)? One might get attractive discounts in such a case in the range of VAT. This is because not everybody likes to buy a boat nobody could ever test before (not even see it) and usually the number 1 is needed for some marketing tasks within the first months. 
If you dont care so much about that it could be a good deal.
Ulf


----------



## bjung

Ulf,
I think if you live close to the yard, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But if you live in the US and the yard is in Croatia, it may be a while before you get a handle on all the baby illnesses, that are going to show up no matter how good the reputation of the yard is. Also, builders usually use hull#1 as a demo at the yard, and then sell it at a good discount after a few years.
Bernd


----------



## myocean

Congratulations to your new boat, Paulo!

For the purchase of a No1 I now remember that Fora offered such a discount even for the first 3 RM1260.

Ulf


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Yes this time is for sure The surveyor had commented with my daughter that the boat had only a problem and that was that he could not find anything wrong and he like to find at least one problem in a boat.
> 
> The boat is in pretty good shape, has radar, 2 plotters (one outside), Navtex, webasto heating, rod rigging, mylar sails in very good condition, a 135% genoa never used, geenaker, bowsprit, removable stay, storm reef, 3th reef on the main, two heads and two freezers.
> 
> The only thing I have to review is attaching points for harnesses, permanent jacklines and handgrabs. That will be done by the Comet guys probably next winter.
> 
> Almost perfect in what I am concerned.


Congratulations Paulo!


----------



## daviid

PCP said:


> Thanks Eric,
> 
> Yes this time is for sure The surveyor had commented with my daughter that the boat had only a problem and that was that he could not find anything wrong and he like to find at least one problem in a boat.
> 
> The boat is in pretty good shape, has radar, 2 plotters (one outside), Navtex, webasto heating, rod rigging, mylar sails in very good condition, a 135% genoa never used, geenaker, bowsprit, removable stay, storm reef, 3th reef on the main, two heads and two freezers.
> 
> The only thing I have to review is attaching points for harnesses, permanent jacklines and handgrabs. That will be done by the Comet guys probably next winter.
> 
> Almost perfect in what I am concerned.
> 
> I have signed the contract pay now a part and only finish to pay the boat when it is delivered to me in June. In the meantime the boat is going to stay on the hard. This strange deal has to do with the owner not to have to pay 21% VAT on the rest of the leasing but only half and that means the boat was less expensive for me.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

Felicitations!! Chappeau! Bravo!

You will have to up our/my knowledge on the Comet as a brand.

I have no doubt that it has worked out perfectly for you.

Looks like you have got yourself a real beauty.

All the best

David


----------



## G1000

Would be great if someone could post key points from the test Film fra Pogo 12.50 test : Seilas.no


----------



## EricKLYC

Cheers Paulo!
Let the surgeons know there is a Belgian collegue looking overt their shoulder .

This video has been recorded during the "European Yacht of the Year" trials in Barcelona. It probably illustrates the main reason why the Pogo has been elected in the "performance cruiser" category.

Of course this was a broad reach, the speciality of the Pogo. But the difference in apparent wind almost makes it an upwind course, compared to the "victim" (Grand Soleil 50'). Which is, by the way, not very well sailed: look at the sheeting angle and trim of the solent .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Would be great if someone could post key points from the test Film fra Pogo 12.50 test : Seilas.no


You just have to look at the broad smile on the face of the testers not to mention the yelling. Even if badly sailed the Grand Soleil 50 is a fast boat, a bit heavy. The problem is that for that wind the Grand Soleil would need a bigger Geenaker...and a lot of crew to tame it while the Pogo can go happily with the genoa and solo sailed if needed.

Of course upwind even badly sailed, the Pogo would not be a match for a Grand Soleil 50, but we are talking about a 50ft boat versus a 41ft boat, that's a huge difference in LWL.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Some more videos from the Transquadra:

Vicariot on a JPK 10.10, first on solo (real time and handicap) and on the front pack among the fastest duos. Great race:





3 swinhoe _por overlapprod_

Hamon and the Sun fast 3200 that arrived 2th on real time on solo:





festa _por overlapprod_

And the most funny one, the one that arrived 6th on solo but second on compensated (A31) with a close encounter with a whale

The funny is that the boat is called BalleineBlanche that translates as whitewhale





baleine contre baleine _por overlapprod_

And for last, my old boat, a Bavaria 36 that even loaded with a lot of stuff (they even carried the back bench that I used only for a week, not to mention all the stuff for producing energy) was not the last (6 boats behind):





arrivee mercredi matin _por overlapprod_

Also a very special comment for a Benetau 37 that made a good race ( a lot better than the Bavaria).


----------



## PCP

eh! eh! Hetairos the beautiful mega luxury yacht that I have posted some time back and in my opinion among the most beautiful boats ever, this one:






*is beating Rambler,* one of the fastest racing boats, if not the fastest and leading the Caribbean 600. You can follow the race here:

2012 Fleet Tracking | Tracking | Race Information

The start:






Well, 1+ for beautiful classic styled boats: they sure can by fast. Who can deny that now?

..


----------



## PCP

Another victory for the Spanish in the VOR Sanya in port race. Beautiful images, with the Australian/ American Puma managing 2th place:


----------



## PCP

Since I am posting about really fast boats, let's remember this spectacular images of 100ft Rambler when he was called "Virgin Money", back in 2008:











and that's all for the night folks

...


----------



## tdw

Paulo,
Congrats on the new boat and I hope your surgery all went well. 
I like what I see though I've never been a big fan of straight through galleys. Other than she looks the goods and lets face all is to some degree a compromise.
Cheers to you
Andrew


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> Congrats on the new boat and I hope your surgery all went well.
> I like what I see though I've never been a big fan of straight through galleys. Other than she looks the goods and lets face all is to some degree a compromise.
> Cheers to you
> Andrew


Yes, I would have preferred a "classical" galley instead of a modern one even if my wife disagrees because this way the galley is much bigger. I bet that the ladies have been prevalent in what regards this set-up that is very common today.

I would have to study a way to have support while cocking on the wrong tack. Maybe a discrete removable dyneema cable all along the galley.

Regarding the surgery, I have been operated to both ears and besides being 
provisionally deaf as a door, all is well.

Yes, if you don't have the money to really buy what you want you have to compromise and in my case I have preferred to compromise on that than on a more older type of hull and a less performance boat.

The really important thing in what regards the interior was a cozy and nice one with good storage and a good galley. This boat meets those two requirements and the galley if provided with adequate supports for an harness (a waist one) would not be a problem. Fact is that I miss more a good hull port view....but as you say, compromises.

Anyway regarding compromises, I know this is a 5 year old boat but it is also a boat with a better overall quality than a Salona or a Dufour and a much more expensive boat, one that I could not dream to afford new, not even the smaller Comet 38 and the truth is that I always have liked this boat. I guess that I could only afford it because Italy is in a crisis and the boat market is going down as well as prices and that means a big difference between asking prices and selling prices, for the ones that really want to sell the boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

So finally a post about the Comet 41s. It don't look nice that I have chosen a boat that has not been posted on this thread.

The truth is that I have posted about the Comet 38 that is a kind of little sister but have not posted about the 41s because it is an older boat, that even if it is still in production, is a 2006 model.

But as I have said, always liked the boat and have even bought the test sail from my favorite magazine, the "Yacht" magazine and they have said nice things about the boat. I hope they don't mind that I show the opening page of that test sail : "Bella figura" they have said



















They had light winds on that test and measured with 6K wind:

43º-5.1K.....60º-6.1k.....90-6.4K

"Giornalle dela Vela" also tested the Comet 41s and with 15k wind they got:

40º-7.2K.....90º-8.4K.....130º-9.7K

So, no doubt about that, this is a fast boat that goes well in light wind and not bad in stronger wind starting to plan not far from 15k wind.

There are two versions of the boat, a more cruising orientated (the one that was tested on both magazines), that has a cored hull with e glass, airex as core and vinilester resins and a true racing version with carbon mast and boom with epoxy hull.

The first one weights 8.0T with a draft of 2.2m and a ballast of 2690kg, the second one 6.9T, with a draft of 2.5m and a ballast of 2500kg. The boat has 12.46m LOA, 10.90 LWL and 3.92 beam. A stiff boat with a good B/D ratio considering that it is a bulbed keel.

The keel is all lead but with an interior steel structure that permits it to be relatively fin. To my surprise I have learned and saw on the Comet shipyard that the keel is connected to a steel structure that is completely laminated to the boat and remain invisible. They where among the first that used a steel grid (before Grand Soleil) but they chose not to advertise it and that in my opinion makes no sense.

The performance cruising version:





































The racing version:




























"Yacht" Magazine said (translated):

*"The designers from Studio Vallicelli have based the boat design on typical IMS racing yachts. This benefits not only the speed. It looks great too. But the smallest member of the Comar shipyard will make not only a good figure on the race track:
Also cruising, the crew will feel good on the 41mm Comet ...especially in the interior where they will likely feel as comfortable as at home. In the salon and the cabins almost nothing is unmistakably focused on a sailing performance concept, quite the contrary. Almost it seems you are on a Scandinavian series production boat, so fundamentally sound is the interior. Only the available space is somewhat scarcer than a pure cruising yachts of comparable length". *

*Virtual tour:*

Comaryachts





































The most amazing thing in the boat, considering the size is a dedicated sail locker, just aft from the anchor locker, with access from the outside and space for two sails, the worse and the only shortcoming of the boat is the lack of hand holds, on the interior and on the outside, but that would not be difficult to solve and I will do that with the guys from the factory next winter.

There is another thing that I like on that boat: it has a lot of rocker for a modern hull. That will give it an easy motion in waves, minimazing slamming and giving it a more comfortable sea motion.

Comar says about the boat:

*"The biggest challenge: keeping the same appeal of its big brothers, the 51 and the 45 S, in just twelve meters. For this the firm has spent many hours creating numerous models in 1:10 scale, to find the right BALANCE in the relationship between the hull and deckhouse...

The characteristics are typical of the Sport Comar line : easy forms and performance with minimum drag....The boat is characterized by fine bow sections shaped to develop the maximum buoyancy and facilitate the wave transition... Fast and responsive, the Comet 41s is docile to the helm and precise in the reactions due to an accurate centering and high efficiency of the rudder."*

...


----------



## PCP

And some photos of the one that is going to be my boat...in June:














































Funny thing is that the owner give a Portuguese name to his boat: "Alma", a nice name that means "Soul" in English (in Italian is "Anima"). I am going to keep it

...


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> From Voiles & Voiliers: we know the French especially like the light and beamy "open" designs, but these get terrible IRC ratings so they are quite useless for handicap racing.
> Marsaudon Composites in Lorient decided they wanted to do something about it and recently launched their first MC 34 Patton, named after the associated watchmaker, optimized for IRC.
> 
> Have a look at the basic figures:
> 10.50m (9.15 waterline) x 3.46m x 1.99m
> 3650 kg (1.900 kg ballast, > 50%!)
> 67m2 upwind
> 
> Estimated TCC is between 1.055 and 1.058
> 
> It has an inverted deck line to save weight in the extremities and create a little more headroom below decks without raising the roof too much. But no bulb in the leaded keel and only one pair of spreaders on the carbon mast to reduce the rating.
> The hull is composite with glass reinforced infused vinylester and thermoformed foam, painted without a formal gelcoat layer.
> 
> At first glance the interior looks quite comfortable for a boat with definite racing ambitions, although the small, centered chart table looks very racy but quite useless.
> 
> Add a carbon mast and boom and this light boat will lift you about € 215.000, I presume without sails . But then you also get an personalized Patton clock and watch :laugher.
> 
> Light but well ballasted and with a sharply chined, beamy hull, this looks like a very powerful design. Wait and see what it will do around the buoys, especially when the prices are handed out .
> 
> 
> Van Drop Box
> 
> 
> Van Drop Box
> 
> Marsaudon Composites - Lorient - MC34 PATTON
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric












Yes, that seems to be a great boat with a big potential. Funny that don't seem a Marc Lombard boat, I mean with all that ballast and relatively narrow. It seems that Ker is influencing European designers...no wonder with all those victories.

It is a pity all that grey, it seems a bit like a war machine to me. I like racing colors





































It is expensive but I guess you cannot make this type of boat otherwise: It has to be light and very strong to be able to resist to the forces that huge ballast on a long keel will transmit to the hull, I mean huge RM. You cannot make it very light and very strong without making it very expensive










Regards

Paulo


----------



## HMoll

Paulo,

Congrats. Looks awesome. Funny, I was about to suggest to keep the name and you are! You can always add a "C", and it's CALMA! "Sexy Beast" could also fit it well! Celebrate, Hans.


----------



## daviid

Hi Paulo

Your new boat looks awesome. Although the trend is for twin helms these days, I really like the look of the oversized performance helm on your boat. Also it seems that you are not going to have any problems as regards ventilation - there are enough hatches to be sure. I love the look of the interior - the detailing is obvious and the quality shines through. Why are the companionway stairs so steep though? Is this a parking position or a permanent set-up?

I was going to ask you if you were changing the name - some folk are quite superstitious about that - myself not included.

Anyway, I am sure you can't wait to run with the white horses soonest.

David


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Congrats. Looks awesome. Funny, I was about to suggest to keep the name and you are! You can always add a "C", and it's* CALMA!* "Sexy Beast" could also fit it well! Celebrate, Hans.


CALMA. very funny Hans and also a nice name for a fast boat.

It seems that you know some Portuguese For the ones that don't understood the joke Calma means in Portuguese: Easy/Slow down.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> Your new boat looks awesome. Although the trend is for twin helms these days, I really like the look of the oversized performance helm on your boat. Also it seems that you are not going to have any problems as regards ventilation - there are enough hatches to be sure. I love the look of the interior - the detailing is obvious and the quality shines through. Why are the companionway stairs so steep though? Is this a parking position or a permanent set-up?
> 
> I was going to ask you if you were changing the name - some folk are quite superstitious about that - myself not included.
> 
> Anyway, I am sure you can't wait to run with the white horses soonest.
> 
> David


Yes you are right, the companionway stairs are a bit steep. I guess it is an Italian thing because the ones from the Grand Soleil 39 is not better. We will manage with that.

Yes, the boat is not a model in what regards ventilation but it has enough hatches to be functional.

Some more photos. They were not made by me and they are a bit on the low quality side.

By the way that wheel is a curious one: An aluminium one
































































Back in 2007 the 41s was the smallest Comet. Mostly they were making 45/50fts. This is the big brother



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

What an wonderful new: Hatairos, the big classical flavored yacht took line honors on the Caribbean 600 beating all racing boats, including the big and powerful 90ft Rambler. The big cruising ketch, designed by Reichel / Pugh and Dykstra won by almost two hours.

Hatairos Navigator Marc Lagesse: *"I must say I am very surprised that we were the first at the finish. On Line Honors, I would not have believed before the start, as the ship and sailing are not optimal for this course.."*

Well, I cannot wait to be what the boat can do on an optimal course

They averaged 22k speed.

Isn't it a beauty, I mean a fast beauty:





































On compensated won another beautiful one, this time a race one that normally beats bigger boats, and has won already many races, Ran the Judel/Vrolijk designed 72ft. Look at it, on another race:


----------



## smackdaddy

Wow! Amazing boat Pualo!!

Congrats!


----------



## PCP

Thanks Smack, even if that "Pualo" sounds odd

Guys look at this:










I know, it is not a sailboat...but it is a nice boat and I want to share something that take me by surprise....not Venice, everybody knows it is beautiful, but the Museum, not any museum but the Naval History Museum.

It costs almost nothing to visit, it is almost empty...and it is wonderful.

Take my word, if you go to Venice, and everybody should go sooner or later, don't forget the Naval museum and if you love boats you will not regret it: From the Bucintoro to the huge rings the Dodges used to throw every year to the sea to celebrate the city marriage with the sea to incredible drawings of warships and beautiful models you have for several hours of amazement.

Yes, it would be strange if a city married with the sea for so many years had not a great boat museum but the fact is that I had already been in Venice and never heard about it.

So now you know

Marina Militare


----------



## smackdaddy

Oops. You can call me Sckam.


----------



## tdw

Paulo,

Most of the issues with the new ride can be sorted in due course. You uiltmately choose your priorities.
As for the galley ... just how much passage making do you intend to do ? The more time I spend on passage for longer than just daylight runs the more I realise that all galleys are a bugger to work in at sea and that unless you are talking passages of longer than four or five days then its best to do most of your preparation before you set off and/or eat simply when at sea. But I'm sure you know all this.
Reality is you'll spend most time at anchor where the only negative of the in line galley is the loss of a settee berth opposing the dinette.

Good to hear your op went well. 

Cheers

Andrew


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> ...
> As for the galley ... just how much passage making do you intend to do ? The more time I spend on passage for longer than just daylight runs the more I realise that all galleys are a bugger to work in at sea and that unless you are talking passages of longer than four or five days then its best to do most of your preparation before you set off and/or eat simply when at sea. But I'm sure you know all this.
> Reality is you'll spend most time at anchor where the only negative of the in line galley is the loss of a settee berth opposing the dinette.
> ...


Yes, you are right regarding the galley. If a in line galley is well done with support for the back, like the one on some boats, it is not a problem to work there. Probably it is more confortable than a partial side support on the other type of galley and the in line galley has the advantage of a much better storage space for m2 of bench.

Where the real advantage lays is on the two lateral bunks instead of one, two sea berths, or if you only need one, the possibility of choosing the one that is more comfortable depending on the tack and the boat heeling.

Probably because very few make significant use of sea berths, the in line galley is become more and more popular because as a galley is more functional and has more storage space.

Well, that's why my wife likes more in line galleys and I like more classical Galleys. I don't care for the galley, what I like is the two lateral bunks

Take a good look at this one from the Bavaria 40:










Bavaria Yachtbau: 360°-Bilder

Not properly nice but very big and functional, with support to the back and a bar for clipping a waist harness. You have to give credit to Bavaria for this kind of stuff (also for the optional security system for the cockpit and deck).

Almost nobody use it but they continue to do boats like if they were really to be sailed hard and long

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

If you are interested in a new 36/37 ft you should have a look at the last edition of "Yacht " magazine or at least buy (on line) their last boat test:

With all the boats in the water at the same time they have tested the Bavaria 36, the Jeanneau 379, the Hanse 385, The Delphia 37.3 and the Benetau Oceanis 37.

The test from the video is interesting even if they only got light wind, at least when they were filming.

*MOVIE:*

http://tv.yacht.de/video/F%C3%BCnf-...rgleichstest/8b33e54c1f1aee4fb9e1725f73eb15ca


----------



## PCP

TNT 34, a very interesting Trimaran that promises to have an explosive performance, an apropriated name I would say.

Trimarans are expensive but this one is not as expensive as the Dragonfly 35 even if its interior is simpler and less well finished.

For about 200 000€ some lucky guy will have a boat that has cruising capacity, an incredible sailing performance and a boat that can fold in two ways: For transporting in a trailer and laterally (see the movie) to fit in the marina on a monohull place. 
And it is also a looker. I will be waiting for a video of this one sailing, I bet it will be interesting.























































*MOVIE* - folding:

http://www.motorcat.com/wideo-tnt34/tnt34-video.html

....


----------



## motorcat

PCP said:


> TNT 34, a very interesting Trimaran that promises to have an explosive performance, an apropriated name I would say.
> 
> Trimarans are expensive but this one is not as expensive as the Dragonfly 35 even if its interior is simpler and less well finished.
> 
> For about 200 000€ some lucky guy will have a boat that has cruising capacity, an incredible sailing performance and a boat that can fold in two ways: For transporting in a trailer and laterally (see the movie) to fit in the marina on a monohull place.
> And it is also a looker. I will be waiting for a video of this one sailing, I bet it will be interesting.
> 
> ....


more info : TNT34 - The New Trimaran or Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More
folding on the water : TNT 34 folding - starboard view - YouTube


----------



## PCP

motorcat said:


> more info : TNT34 - The New Trimaran or Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More
> folding on the water : TNT 34 folding - starboard view - YouTube


Thanks. When you have it sailing, please post.

The only thing I don't like on the boat is the interior. Yes I know it has to be simple not to make the boat expensive and to keep it light, but I am talking not only about materials but about interior design, particularly colors: They are all wrong for a modern boat of this type. If we look only to the interior we would say that this was an old boat.

The boat interior really needs the work of a good interior boat designer, one used to light materials.



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Nice girl, nice sailing, beautiful movie. She makes it look so easy...well, I have tried that once, it was not so easy






That's Sarah Hebert and she is....well, brave and a bit mad just take a look:


----------



## PCP

More two pictures of the Salona 35, while we wait for more:


----------



## Faster

Late to the dance, Paulo, but congrats on the new boat, she looks like a good compromise and should be a blast to sail.. pity to have to wait for June!

Thanks for that link to the racing at Antigua.. we were at the 'after party' for the Carib 600 a couple of years back in 2010.. very cool, relaxed laid back affair marred only the the fact that some boats had yet to finish.. it was a completely unexpectedly light air affair (so unexpected the committee never posted a time limit! so at least one boat was still 'racing' when they were handing out trophies...)


----------



## PCP

Thanks Faster.

Some interesting numbers regarding North America:










Based on a survey, which was attended by 93 sailboat manufacturer with a presence in North America, this report analyzes the business climate and the development of the industry.

*In its 12th annual State of the Industry report, presented last week during the Miami International Boat Show, The Sailing Company outlined the industry's challenges and opportunities in 2012.

Although there are "tough waters still ahead," with election-year doldrums, an uncertain jobs outlook and other issues plaguing the U.S. economy, sailing participation remains strong, chartering remains strong for nurturing new buyers and consumer confidence is on the rise, the report said.

Some highlights of this year's report include:

• Sailboat production in North America was down 3 percent in 2011 compared to 2010. The report says 6,322 boats were produced, down 170 from the year before.

• The recession has had a significant impact on sailboat builders in North America; the number of builders declined from 146 to 113 between 2005 and 2011.

• The two size segments that saw growth were boats 12 to 19 feet and 30 to 35 feet, both of which were up 11 percent.

• The largest boats were one of the hardest-hit segments; boats 46 feet and up were off 36 percent.

• Imports were up strongly, 32 percent from 2010, up to 251 units over 20 feet.

• After a poor showing in 2010, multihull imports were also up dramatically in 2011, representing 48 percent of all imports.

• Bareboat charters booked out of North American source markets were down slightly, off 6 percent, to 17,869 weeks. The overall decline came from the winter season and Caribbean destinations; the summer season and North American destinations fared better.

• Twenty percent of the sailboats built in North America in 2011 were for export.

• Sailboat builders are optimistic about 2012, predicting 14 percent growth, mostly in the 20- to 35-foot category.*

Sailboat report details segment


----------



## PCP

For the ones that are sailing in Europe some news, mostly bad:

If you put diesel in UK or Gibraltar pay attention, they use for boats inexpensive red diesel (less taxed and much less expensive than car diesel) and what was a good news can turn in a nightmare because from April the 1st their use will only be legal inside the 12Nm UK waters. The fines will be heavy and I bet national coast guards will be checking on that because everybody in EC is pissed with that British exception to the EC law, I mean cheap diesel for pleasure and not only for working, as in any other EC countries.

Cross-Channel red diesel use outlawed | Sailing news | Yachting Monthly

In Italy, also bad news, with all the pleasure boats over 10m sailing in Italian waters paying a daily tax. Well not really sailing because if you don't stop you don't pay, but if you stay the night on anchor or go to a marina, you pay.

The boats on the hard don't pay.

The taxes are:










It seems not much but if you are going to pass some time in Italy, it is going to hurt, not to mention leaving the boat there. It makes the Croatia tax look insignificant.

....


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> I'm not sure, if this boat has been posted yet...?
> Gunfleet 43, was exhibited at the Southhampton Boatshow, a new venture for Richard Mathews (founder of Oyster Yachts), and designed by Tony Castro.
> I find the design quite innovative, and not a repetition of features on other "new" designs, from the deck layout, helm (why hasn't anyone else thought of this?), and interior design. Also notable are the many opening portholes and hatches for good ventilation below, which so many new designs lack. Sail handling looks like the boat would be easy to single hand as well.
> The Mathews/ Castro combo should also assure good sailing performance, can't wait for a review.....
> 13m Gunfleet 43 | Tony Castro Yacht Design


Some more information on the Gunfleet 43: Great interior, ugly boat, in my opinion. What a waste, it would be easy to make this a very nice boat.


----------



## PCP

And also a British one, a better looking one, the new Oyster 625, the winner of the 2012 European boat of the year in the class of Luxury Cruisers.

Oyster 625 wins European Yacht of the Year | Humphreys Yacht Design

The boat has been a success with lots of commands and this one is on charter:


----------



## PCP

And changing subject, from luxury to traditional historical boats, a very beautiful one, The American corsair "Lynx", a replica of one of the fastest boats of its time (1812):

Welcome To The Home Of America's Privateer Lynx





















Curiously its naval history was quite short:

HMS Mosquidobit (sometimes Musquedobet or Musquidobit) was the Chesapeake-built six-gun schooner Lynx that the British Royal Navy captured and took into service in 1813. She was sold into commercial service in 1820 and nothing is known of her subsequent fate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Mosquidobit_(1813)
...


----------



## PCP

Curiously the French also have a replica of a corsair boat, exactly from the same year, La Renard:





Rassemblement de vieux gréements à Diélette _por normandietv-wizdeo_

*MOVIE:*

Vidéo Ina - Lancement du Renard des mers à St Malo pendant le Festival Etonnants voyageurs, vidéo Lancement du Renard des mers à St Malo pendant le Festival Etonnants voyageurs, vidéo Art et Culture Musique - Archives vidéos Art et Culture Musique : 





Le bateau corsaire - Les escapades de Philippe _por Hautebretagne_

In what regards sailing movies the Lynx win hands down, in what regards historical naval battles, le Renard wins easely, what about a race to have a tie

The Renard (Fox) was a boat armed by one of the most famous French corsair, Robert Surcouf. Under the command of captain Leroux-Desrochettes la Renard with a 46 crew fought and destroyed the much bigger Btitish navy boat Alphea with a crew of 80.

The battle was terrible and in September 9, 1813, in the dead of night, they fought for 4 hours till Alphea got blown out of the water by an explosion.

The Renard returned to Saint Malo sailed by the only 6 crew that were not dead or seriously wounded. They lost more than half of its crew, including the Captain.

....


----------



## PCP

And since we are talking about traditional boats one of the best movies I know of is this one covering the week of Morbihan Golf, back in 2009, a wonderful one in 3 parts:





Semaine du Golfe du Morbihan - Episode 1 _por Sailingnews_





Semaine du Golfe du Morbihan - Episode 2 _por Sailingnews_





Semaine du Golfe du Morbihan - Episode 3 _por Sailingnews_


----------



## PCP

I have already talked here about the RM 1350, the boat that the Italian "Giornalle de la Vela" considered the best performance cruiser in its class and that comparing with all the best boats in its class, including some great Italian ones like the Comet 45 or Grand Soleil 46.

Best performance cruiser means not necessarily the fastest but this boat is certainly fast, the most adapted for extensive cruising and by far the best to live aboard. One of the best I would say and since many here are thinking about that i will post again with some new information.

A video from a boat test sail made by " Seilas" magazine and a good diaporama:


----------



## PCP

Some more movies of a beautiful boat we also have talked about, the Bestwind 50. The boat was one of the nominees for the 2012 boat of the year on the class that was wined by the Oyster 625:
















And here, even if the movie is made on a HR 64, we can see him, going well on an heavy sea and lots of wind:






And finally, from the same "family", the Bestevaer 56:


----------



## motorcat

PCP said:


> Thanks. When you have it sailing, please post.
> 
> The only thing I don't like on the boat is the interior. Yes I know it has to be simple not to make the boat expensive and to keep it light, but I am talking not only about materials but about interior design, particularly colors: They are all wrong for a modern boat of this type. If we look only to the interior we would say that this was an old boat.
> 
> The boat interior really needs the work of a good interior boat designer, one used to light materials.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


No problem . End of the April we plan to finish sea trails at the Baltic sea , so I will keep You posted after 
Interior design can be change according to the end customer wish , as this exist has been made

Cheers 
Kris


----------



## myocean

*Not for Cruising...*

Hi Together!

Not for cruising but definitely an interesting sailboat for having lots of fun:

Look this pic how I enjoyed the weekend on San Francisco Bay having the chance to join some great sailors on this new 33ft cat









Ulf


----------



## opc11

Paulo,

Regarding that RM. I noticed the cockpit traveler. It would seem to divide the cockpit up making it impossible to provide a full cockpit canopy. It does look to be a fast boat, but man, the 70's called and they want their interior back.


----------



## PCP

opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Regarding that RM. I noticed the cockpit traveler. It would seem to divide the cockpit up making it impossible to provide a full cockpit canopy. It does look to be a fast boat, but man, the 70's called and they want their interior back.


That's a boat for guys that like to sail and travel far and also a boat to circumnavigate. You have to choose if you want a perfect control of the main or some more commodities.

Nevertheless the boat has a big bimini.

Regarding the interior, it is not from the 70's, it's a modern one. Well I have to admit I don't like it but lots of guys like that zen look. RM (with this one and the other models) is probably the brand that have grow more last year...unless it was Pogo

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> Uau!!!! did you have luck with the wind? Did the cat lift its "leg up in the air"?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Well, we had 12-15 or 20 knots. The picture from us above has been taken by a sailing blog-author. Its cool steering such a machine with flying hull - the altitude is the feedback you get for how to steer... 
At the same time I found it being much more relaxed than expected.


----------



## PCP

myocean said:


> Well, we had 12-15 or 20 knots. The picture from us above has been taken by a sailing blog-author. Its cool steering such a machine with flying hull - the altitude is the feedback you get for how to steer...
> At the same time I found it being much more relaxed than expected.


So it is not a photo of the cat you have sailed it is a picture of you sailing it Uau! Uau! that's even better. You have here an envious guy

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Jesus, it has been cold. Look at this boats in Romania:





































Even in the South the Italian Lagunas froze, including the one where is Venice. This is Laguna di Marano between Trieste and Venice, the place where my boat is.


----------



## PCP

New Zealand sailors and designers are know by his quality all over the world but in what regards solo or short crew racing they are just at the beginning. More than 20 years after a famous duo circumnavigation of the Island they are doing it again and still in a very amateur way and that's one of the things that make it interesting. All sorts of boats and crews, including cruisers. I like the spirit






*Movie:*

http://www.3news.co.nz/Challenges-i...-race/tabid/317/articleID/244239/Default.aspx

http://www.3news.co.nz/Challenges-i...-race/tabid/415/articleID/244239/Default.aspx

Looking at the results from the first leg I saw that in real time the faster boat was a Tiller 10.6 with 7h37m beating much bigger and fast boats like the Krakatoa a well know Pogo class 40 (made several Hobart's) with 8h31m and a First 47.7 with 8h35m.

*Well, what the hell is a Tiller 10.5?????
*

It is this one (photos from Katrina Webster):























































Ok! Very nice boat, lots of form stability and I bet a long keel and lot's of ballast (more than the Pogo) but who is the designer and the builder?

First time I heard about the Tiller!

*Auckland skipper David Tiller's self-designed and built 10.6m composite sloop, is also back for a crack at the race after completing the 1998 event. 
*

http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/sport/3454782/Largest-ever-fleet-for-yacht-race

*You have too love these guys*

You can follow the race here:

Round New Zealand Two Handed leg 2 - Powered by Yellowbrick Tracking

And have a look at the movie from that famous first edition raced with bad weather:


----------



## PCP

The fastest one design championship is almost there:






even if you don't understand French the images worth it. Have a looK:

*MOVIE:*

La WebTV de Voiles et Voiliers - Les vidéos - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles

...


----------



## PCP

Beautiful presentation for a new sailboat race, the AF offshore race in Sweden, lots of nice and interesting boats, a pleasure to look at:

*Movie:*

Qbrick - Web TV Professional

The race comes to substitute an old famous Swedish race, the Gotland race and aims at an even more international participation. It will start inside the capital, Stockholm and that should be a spectacle to watch.

*Starting in Stockholm Saturday, June 30 and Sunday, July 1 through Sandhamn - around Gotland. Finish and prize giving takes place in Sandhamn on Wednesday 4 July.

KSSS has a long tradition of organizing international regattas and offshore races. After 100 years, Sandhamn been Sweden's most famous sailing center and Gotland Race, the world's greatest ocean races were sailed for the first staged in 1937. Now we are taking a big step for building a new sailing event Mitti Stockholm. All are welcome as participants or as spectators, along the shore or by boat along the island path. Event area will be open to the public from Thursday, June 28.*

ÅF Offshore Race 28 juni - 4 juli :: KSSS

Here you can see the racing grounds, The Swedish archipelago one of the most beautiful cruising grounds. Someday I will cruise there


----------



## PCP

This beauty, Raimbow the 1934 cup winner, is on the water again.

Well. not properly the original one but a replica that is faithful in what regards the hull shape but not in what regards hull construction: The techniques and materials could not be more different.










Yes that's right, it is an aluminium boat redesigned by Dykstra. Actually the new one is heavier: 178T compared with the 141T of original one, a William Burgess design with a hull of wood supported by steel frames. But the new one has a bigger mast and carries more sail (930m2 comparing with 700m2) and that means that some of that extra weight is ballast

Who would say that this beauty is an aluminium boat?




























http://jclassyachts.blogspot.com/2012/02/holland-jachtbouw-launches-rainbow.html

http://nuttyrave.blogspot.com/2012/02/rainbow-2012.html

http://rainbow-jh2.com/

Yes, the return of the J class:






Rainbow is joining this two for the summer races:











Just have a look at the interior of Ranger:






..


----------



## PCP

Hanmar tested the Dragonfly 28 sport: What a cruising boat It is a pity the "Nordic" price






And some older movies with the Dragonfly 28:


----------



## PCP

The new Hanse 415, a boat that pisses me. I explain:

There are many things I like in the boat: It is not as fat as many of its concurrent (it could have a more sharp bow entry), it has all the winches in the cockpit, and that makes the handling easier solo or with a short crew, it has a modern and efficient keel and a nice hull, it has an epoxy version that is strong and not to heavy, self tacking jib. The cockpit and the storage is well designed including the space for the life-raft... but it has a quite deceiving interior, one that looks an amateur design job.

Hanse insist to design its interiors at home instead of giving them to the better specialized designers on the market and the results are very, very poor. I would say that even not professionally specialized in that type of design I could easily improve the design quality of that interior and that without making it significantly more expensive. Not that I am good at that particular type of design, it's the ones that design that interior that are not up to the task. Of course a good specialized designer could do a lot better than me.

That is what pisses me with Bavarias (even if the new Vision seems a lot better) and Hanses: They judge necessary to contract a first class architect to design the hull and rig but find unnecessary to the the same in what regards the interior. That's not very clever because most of customers (or their wives) buy the boat more by the interior than for any other thing.


----------



## PCP

Guys, I have found some really good information about energy in a sail boat, batteries, alternators, different types of generators, electrical consumption...well the lot. I have already posted it in a small thread but I think that here is going to benefit more people. It is a book and you can download it.

*Electricity on Board*

by Reinout Vader

and it can be downloaded in the site of* Victron Energy B.V.*, specialists in generators and energy.

Thanks to both to make this gem available on line.

*The book*:

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Book-EN-EnergyUnlimited.pdf


----------



## PCP

A new design, a French one with 15m and when I look at it I think: Ferrari, maybe I should thought Bugatti, but no, definitively Ferrari, maybe because the NA is Italian.

The Aureus XVI looks gorgeous and it will be fast with only 11.8T to 122 m2 of sail, a carbon yacht. Have a look at this beauty:


----------



## PCP

Look at this Seacart 26 promotion movie:






SeaCart 26. Promo. from Love Strandell on Vimeo.

Not much wind and the boat glide very fast, effortlessly. Nice. What a day-sailer, what a racer, what a wonderful boat


----------



## mikel1

O.K.! Starting to like this . . .AureusXV/XVI . . . Ferrari mention understood . . .personally would rethink the interior surfaces/finishes (personal, colors & textures etc.) yeah just me.


----------



## PCP

mikel1 said:


> O.K.! Starting to like this . . .AureusXV/XVI . . . Ferrari mention understood . . .personally would rethink the interior surfaces/finishes (personal, colors & textures etc.) yeah just me.


Yes I agree. I understand the designer's idea and the zen spirit with some luxury is a great mix, but mainly on the dark set-up I thing you are right.

On the light colors set up it seems a lot better to me. You can see that on the cabin. Pity that the saloon is shown only with the dark set up. I don't like the movable cabinets idea on a boat with this size.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

And some great sailing without a sailing boat:


----------



## PCP

Great photo of Hetairos:










You can downloaded it from Yacht magazine in several sizes and use it as Desktop for Mars.

März 2012*|*YACHT.DE


----------



## PCP

Finally things are really hot on the VOR, while they are heading in difficult conditions to Auckland.

Difficult conditions mean spectacular sailing and the French from Groupama are blasting away winning miles to everybody.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

Nothing is decided yet. Still 2000 miles to Auckland and the 2th and 3th are at only 90Nm. Big fight for 2th between the Australian/American Puma (2th now) and the Spanish from Telefónica.

Great images:


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Take a look at first twin-wheel Pogo12.50. Eric is it yours?


I guess Eric miss your post

But I hope not. The boat was not designed for that and two wheels on that boat only make sense if the boat has a large crew and that's the opposite of its sailing program (solo or short crew).

If you have a tiller and am extension all the winches are near by at reach. With wheels all winches are very far away and out of reach from the skipper.

For having this set up they should have re-positioned the winches.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

New boat: Tide 34, a centerboarder with a classic flavor. A beautiful boat made in small series. Not an inexpensive one but one that will not look outdated in half a dozen years.

Very light (2780kg) and with not much ballast (500kg) most of its stability comes from form stability and the boat is only certified as class C by the RCD.

This boat does not pretend to be an offshore boat, just a nice boat for protected waters.


----------



## G1000

Paulo, I was just joking regarding twin-wheel and Eric  I'm aware Eric will sail shorthanded.

Also wanted to post Anasazi Racing blog about family on a racing Open 40 making a circumnavigation. Amazing!

If you really love sailing and making dreams alive, then you don't really care much about interior or size or ... How about 32 days and 2000km on Laser?


----------



## PCP

Great Video. I did not knew that one. Fantastic adventure! Great fun

I knew about the Anasazi voyage but I never had looked at their site: Fantastic photos and lovely kids. Great voyage.

Anasazi Racing

Thanks for posting.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> I guess Eric miss your post
> 
> But I hope not. The boat was not designed for that and two wheels on that boat only make sense if the boat has a large crew and that's the opposite of its sailing program (solo or short crew).
> 
> If you have a tiller and am extension all the winches are near by at reach. With wheels all winches are very far away and out of reach from the skipper.
> 
> For having this set up they should have re-positioned the winches.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


This is what happens when one is unable to follow this thread for some time, sometimes it's hard to run a job and a yachtclub at the same time... but the good part is that you get a few hours of good reading and fascinating videos when catching up .

No, it's not our boat, G . 
Ours is still waiting for us nicely stored at the Structures yard and is now proudly wearing the "2011 award" (there's a low res picture of the Structures team in front of our boat in this diaporama Pogo 12,50 | Chantier naval STRUCTURES, constructeur des voiliers POGO (site officiel) :: STRUCTURES Shipyard, construction of sailing boat POGO (Oficial website).

And I think you are both perfectly right: these twin weels are not a good idea. 
The steering positions are very exposed and completely out of reach of the winches. They stand in the aftermost, very wide and quite unsafe part of the cockpit .
Bringing the winches back on the coamings would mean losing one of the most attractive features of this cockpit design: winching in a comfortable, upright and sheltered position .
And last but not least, with twin wheels you will certainly loose most of the nice rudder feeling that is very famous on Pogo's (at least with the autopilot uncoupled) .

So no worry, we sticked to the tiller!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

Yes Paulo, that's the one.
As soon as we come back fom Brittany, this time with the boat , I'll try to post a better picture.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

New boat, this one for young guys that like to sail fast and don't have much money, the Kerkena 7.6, a very interesting boat.

The Kerkena 7.6 comes after the Kerkena 6.1 that was a boat heavely influenced by the mini class racers. The idea is to have a boat with offshore capacity as small and as less expensive as possible.

The Kerkena is designed by Defline one of the most creative and inovateur young French Naval Architects and the boat is purposed with a traditional keel or in a twin keel version.


















Strange twin keel?  Yes I agree. Defline used them on the Heol 7.4, a faster but also much more expensive boat (already posted). They are designed not only to offer minimum resistance but also to divide the weight to lift, because those keels swing given the boat the possibility to go at the beach.

They offer a very interesting solution because not only the lifting weight is less as also they support integrally the boat when on dry preventing any damage to the hull:















The other version:






The boat has a very well designed interior, a functional one:



















The boat cost 35 500€ including 20% French VAT and includes sails.

GENERAL FEATURES:

. H.T Length: 7.55 m
. Length LWL: 7.55 m
. Width: 2, 55 m
. displacement standard: 1490 kg
. Kerkena all options : 1960kg
. Ballast weight: 520 kg (fixed keel or 2 swivel keel)
. Standard draft: 1.50m
. Biquille lift Draught: 1m80/0m40
. Standard sail area: 33.7 m²
. Pack RC Sail area: 42.5 m²
. CE Category: C (B pending)
. Mat. Const. : Polyester / Polyester sandwich
. Architect: Martin Defline


----------



## PCP

*Buing a used boat in Italy.*

I want to share some knowledge that can be helpful for some of you.

Has you all know I bought recently a boat in Italy. Italy is right now a very good place to buy a used boat: New tax over property of boats, very expensive marinas and an economy going down makes a big offer and a very small demand on boats so prices are low and it is possible to get the boats for much less than the asking price.

Some tips:

*1*-	Many times you can find the same boat advert on Italian and non Italian brokers (German and Dutch ones). You will tend to call the Italian one: Big mistake, while everybody charges the selling commission to the owner, Italian ones charge half the commission to the owner and half to the buyer, therefore the advertised price is only that one if the brooker is not Italian, on an Italian one you will pay that price plus 7.26% (Vat included).

*2*-	The new Tax on boats will not apply to a foreigner even if the Italian flag is maintained.

*3*-	I have dealt with *Mediaship*. I will describe the way they work and you will take your conclusions:

*a)* You contact them and they show the boat to you.

*b)* You want to make an offer on a boat to know if the owner accepts that and they will ask you a 10% caution over the boat value and make you sign a contract that says that if the owner accepts and if a survey (the surveyor is chosen by you) is positive you have to keep the boat or you will lose the 10%.

*c )* - The Mediaship contract says regarding the Survey:* "The expert will develop a technical assessment of the boat status in order to ensure the agreement stated in the technical record card and the possible existence of defects which could produce risks of safe navigation&#8230;.The only cost of slipway and launch will be charged to the seller when the checks &#8230; have, objectively, a negative outcome"*.

*d)* - When someone sings this is not aware of the implications, namely in what means a negative outcome in what regards a Survey. In Survey terminology *A means: Excellent - Object is like new and functions correctly*; *B means: Good - Object presents slight signs of wear and tear, but functions correctly;* *C: Fair - Object shows signs of age but still functions*; *D - To be substituted Imminent breakage - worn and torn.*

*e)* - A boat has to be really in very bad shape to have a D mark on the survey. *If you are buying a 5 year old boat you would expect everything to have A and B marks*. *However if you have a boat with parts "that show signs of age but still function" it still will have a positive survey if the boat has C marks even if in a 5 year boat or newer it would not be normal to show any "signs of age"*.

*f)* - The first boat that I have saw and made an offer with Mediaship was Sottovoce, a 2007 Comet 41s that revealed in the a hull *"30% humidity, no blisters and humidity on the core"*. *The hull had a C mark* *and that will give an overall positive survey to the boat*.

I had to make a lot of noise not to be forced to accept that boat ( that later show that it had not only humidity on the core, but water) but they could have forced me to accept it contractually, or to lose the 13 000€ that I had given them as caution.

*g)*- This is not to blame on the surveyor. Probably that hull was acceptable if it was a 30 year old boat and in fact the boat had no blisters and no delamination and would not constitute an imminent risk for safe navigation and it was not in need of immediate substitution or reparation (but later would delaminate and would need an expensive reparation). *Probably the mark C was the correct one*.

*h)* - *So you get my drift. I will recommend the Surveyor but not Mediaship*. You can make your own opinion.

*4* - Regarding the many boats I saw in Italy and also the dealer, I found a nice one and in the end did not bought him the boat. Anyway, if someone is interested in an Epoxy Salona 2008 with rod rigging, great sails, an impeccable deck and cockpit and a not so impeccable interior, with one year of warranty given by Grand Soleil by a very good price (a bit more than 120 000€, Vat paid) send me a pm. I was almost to buy that boat. With that dealer no need of any written contract to make an offer and to know if the owner accepted that offer and no caution paid.

....


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> So it is finished, just waiting for you
> 
> The voyage home will be in May? We want not only some pictures but a full reportage
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Will do, Paulo!

The boat was ready in december but we felt it was a good idea to leave it in Brittany until weather conditions become a little more pleasant . After all, we're cruisers! 
Christian Bouroullec and his team were so kind to free a little space to store our TriMen safely, warm and dry. They will launch and rig it in the few next weeks.

The plan is to test sail for a few days in the proximity of the yard and then take the 450 NM or so to Nieuwpoort (Belgian coast), weather permitting. ETA: mid april.

What about your stunningly beautiful Alma? Am I right you will stay in Italy, at least until next year?

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Beautiful traditional boats:






RS Stavanger pilot from Truls Alnes Antonsen on Vimeo.






Rekonstruksjon av sleping med RS Stavanger from Truls Alnes Antonsen on Vimeo.






Segel from Kjell Sallén on Vimeo.


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Hi Eric,
> 
> I don't know. The boat is near Trieste on the Adriatic and close to Slovenia.
> 
> It all depends where I am going to make some mods on the boat (electrical and regarding safety: holding points for harness and some other things).
> 
> If I do that in Italy, on the winter of 2013, I will sail on Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and Albania, and late in the summer I will cross to Italia, turn around in Syracuse and leave the boat in Fumicino, near Rome.
> 
> If I do that in Greece, I will make the same way and then will go for Greece to leave the boat for the winter and to have the job done there.
> 
> If the price is not too different I would prefer to do that with the guys from the Comet factory, in Fiumicino.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Both plans involve wonderful cruising areas.

Enjoy!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## opc11

Paulo,

thanks for the book link! I'm very much looking forward to learning something new!

Regards,


----------



## PCP

opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> thanks for the book link! I'm very much looking forward to learning something new!
> 
> Regards,


Thanks OPC, nice to know

New boat.... and what a boat!!!!! look at this bow:










Sharp

And it is not a racer but a performance cruiser:
































































As you can see this is not the interior of a racer. I have been last year in Dusseldorf inside the new Xp 44 and find it a bit small in what the interior is concerned even if with a very good quality everywhere. Well I bet this one has just the right amount of interior space for two couples to cruise in all comfort...and at speed not to mention the fun.










This boat will have a huge stability. Not only the keel is maximized in what regardes producing RM has this boat has almost half of its weight on the keel.

I like it, like it very much....except the price


----------



## PCP

I have talked already about Defline, one of my preferred Naval Architechts, the one that has designed Kerkena and Heol. From him only beautiful boats and if not limited to small sizes and he has the creative space for designing a 44ft, absolutely gorgeous boats.

Take a look at his last project, the Defline 44X:























































architecte naval : Martin Defline
conception : 2012

LOA :13.40 m
Beam 4.35 m
Displacement : 10 200 Kg
Ballast : 4 000 Kg
Draft : 2.20 m
Sail area : 107 m²
engine : 56 ch
Water tank: 650 L
Diesel tank : 550 L
cathegory CE: A
Materials: wood - epoxy


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> New boat.... and what a boat!!!!! look at this bow:
> 
> This boat will have a huge stability. Not only the keel is maximized in what regardes producing RM has this boat has almost half of its weight on the keel.
> 
> I like it, like it very much....except the price


The march issue of Sailing includes a design review by Bob Perry for the XP 50. Nice boat, but choose your cruising grounds carefully, considering the shoal draft of 8'8" (deep draft 9'10") .
Also reviewed is the HR412, which I would prefer as a cruising boat.


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> The march issue of Sailing includes a design review by Bob Perry for the XP 50. Nice boat, but choose your cruising grounds carefully, considering the shoal draft of 8'8" (deep draft 9'10") .
> Also reviewed is the HR412, which I would prefer as a cruising boat.


Hei Hans,
Sure, I agree with you about the cruising grounds but I can tell you that last year I was cruising in Croatia with a boat with 2.7m draft and had not any problem, not even at 20m off the coast. Plenty of places where you don't have any problems with draft. It is the other way around, there are some places where you have problems with draft

Anyway what you say is not entirely correct: The 8'8" is the standard draft, the 9'10" is the long draft and they did not yet disclosed the shallow draft that I am sure it will be produced if someone wants it.

Regarding the HR412 it was already posted here and it is a very welcome attempt (following the 372) of HR to modernize their designs, following what is been made in the XC cruising line. It seems to be a great boat even if I think it has a baddly design (ugly) transom.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Classics; Three beautiful movies:






Voiles de St Tropez from DIGIVISION on Vimeo.






Les Voiles de Saint-Tropez from kaaps || spaako on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

New safety rules on the Open 60's. Know they have not only to come out of an inverted position without outside help in a flat sea, as, before that, they have to came out of the boat, have a walk on the hull and go inside again. Funny


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> Hei Hans,
> .... It is the other way around, there are some places where you have problems with draft
> ...........
> It seems to be a great boat even if I think it has a baddly design (ugly) transom.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hans !??? 
Not quite sure what point you are trying to make about the draft, but it sounds exactly the same as what I posted. 
Also, you may want to reconsider your broad use of the word "ugly". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and finding two sailors agreeing on the aesthetics of a particular vessel will be hard, just as finding two guys agreeing on the looks of a girl. You would never call the other guys wife ugly, just because she doesn't fit your mold, would you?
Well, then again, maybe you would.....


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Not quite sure what point you are trying to make about the draft, but it sounds exactly the same as what I posted.


You have said *"shoal draft of 8'8" (deep draft 9'10")"*

If you look at the boat specifications:

All the Facts

You will see that 9.68ft is the deep draft but that* 8.69ft (8'8") is not the shoal draft but the standard draft*. Here normally racer/cruisers are offered in three versions, a deep draft, normally used by the ones that race the boat, a standard draft, used by the ones that don't have a particular problem in their cruising areas and a shoal draft, for the ones that want the minimum draft.

What I have said is that they had advertised the standard and deep draft, but not yet the shoal draft. Clear now



bjung said:


> Also, you may want to reconsider your broad use of the word "ugly". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and finding two sailors agreeing on the aesthetics of a particular vessel will be hard, just as finding two guys agreeing on the looks of a girl. You would never call the other guys wife ugly, just because she doesn't fit your mold, would you?
> Well, then again, maybe you would.....


Well, I would politely pretend to agree with you if it was your boat, but as an Art teacher I cannot agree with you. Certainly beauty can be served in many shapes and styles and most will be able to appreciate only one kind but that is not my case, by profession. Even if there is some latitude in what regards to appreciate beauty, beauty is not a relative thing otherwise we could not differentiated ugliness from beauty. And it is not also a personal thing because we can agree in what is a beautiful women, a beautiful boat or a beautiful scenery.

Regarding the old fashioned Halberg Rassy transom, compare it with the one of its main rival, the boat that in my opinion influenced the direction of Halberg-Rassy traditional design and for the better.





































I am talking about a badly designed butand there is no other way of saying that, or maybe:


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## PCP

Back to that Open 60, Acciona, it is a very interesting boat. I guess that if that boat makes it till the final of the Vendee Globe, it will be a winner, at least for me.

And it will be a winner because that boat is the future and the way all Vendee Globe and ocean racers should be: Completely auto-sufficient.

That will develop technology that all of us can use in our cruising boats.

Do you imagine the energy needs of one of these babies for many months? Complicated electronic, big plotter, or better, navigation computer, satellite communication...and big canting keel?

The main energy providers are two hydro-generators (400W each at 15K speed) more two wind generators good for 350w each at 20K wind and 12m2 of solar panels. The energy is stored in lithium 48v batteries.

Chapeau and the best luck for its Spanish skipper Javier Sansó.

Vendée Globe 2012-13 : Le Vendée Globe sans une goutte de gazole ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles

IMOCA Open 60 : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects


----------



## PCP

This time the Victory is not escaping to the French from Groupama and they are going to finish in style at full blast. The race till now dominated by the Spanish will become Hot, with the French in hot pursuit.

For second place on the leg, the Australian/Americans from Puma were caught and overtaken by the Spanish from Telefonica but the fight remains hot, really hot, with 700Nm to go 30Nm separates the two boats.

Finally an interesting race

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


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## PCP

Kend4erMe said:


> This will give the boat almost the capabilities of a motor-sailor.


Hi ken,

Do you mean the autonomy on a light sailboat equipped like that Open60?

In fact it gives a lot more autonomy because a motorsailor will always be using a lot of fuel even to motorsail and never mind how big the tankage, it will always come to an end, not to mention the price of fuel.

The real revolution was developed for the Open 60 and is now at the service of cruisers. It is a hydrogenerator, very light, very simple and that produces a lot of power with little drag. In a cruising boat going at 7K it will produce 500W and 500w all the time. It is a perfect tool for having energy while on passage.

Unfortunately it does not solve the problem while you are at anchor. I guess the better solution to solve both problems will be a big solar shade and this baby. That way I guess most problems will be solved while sailing and at anchor...except on rainy days, were you would have to run the engine.

It is not cheap but if you sail a lot it will worth it.

http://www.wattandsea.com/en


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> Plenty of places where you don't have any problems with draft. It is the other way around, there are some places where you have problems with draft
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paolo,
The above quote was what I was referring to. Still sounds exactly what I posted.... with "choosing your cruising grounds carefully". Are you just disagreeing to disagree even though you agree????
I did understand however, that that you as an art teacher are ultimately more capable to judge the aesthetics of a boat than anyone else. Got it!!
Now back to the previously scheduled program...
Here is a Daysailer from Southerly with their signature variable draft keel.

Speadwave 32

Not sure what a "speadwave" is....


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> ..
> I did understand however, that that you as an art teacher are ultimately more capable to judge the aesthetics of a boat than anyone else. Got it!!


No, I wanted to say what I have said, that contrary of what you were telling beauty is not an arbitrary concept even if it carries some relativity; and yes, there are people that are more educated than others in appreciating and creating beauty, after all they were trained and educated for that and their professional work is to create beauty for the community, I mean designers, architects and many other professions. And no, I don't rate myself high among that community, so no, I don't judge myself "* ultimately more capable to judge the aesthetics of a boat than anyone else*".



bjung said:


> Now back to the previously scheduled program...
> Here is a Daysailer from Southerly with their signature variable draft keel.
> 
> Speadwave 32
> 
> Not sure what a "speadwave" is....


That boat was presented by Southerly some years back and I guess it did not rise much interest, even if it looks like a nice boat to me. I believe they never made one, at least I never saw photos or tests of one and they surely would post photos of a finished boat if they had one.

The boat does not appear anymore on the Northshore page and I think they have abandoned the project:

Southerly

I guess the concept of a relatively big, mostly open daysailer has not much appeal for the British : It rains too much

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

On the VOR 70 while only an accident can take the victory of this leg to Grupama, big fight for second with Puma winning miles over Telefonica. The boats are only separated by 12Nm with 560 to go.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

And from Australia some funny comments about the unfairness of rating old slow boats with big handicaps and make them race winners


----------



## PCP

Incredible racing on the VOR 70!!!!!!

Groupama is almost at the finish, Puma that is fighting hard with Telefonica has managed to overtake the Spanish boat (they are very close).....but Camper, coming from behind, on a different heading, is making and incredible come back: He passed both boats, Telefonica and Puma and is now 2th

Those three will only finish fighting on the finishing line...Hot!!!

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

From professional racing to amateur sail racing: The Saint Maarten Heineken Regatta. On this one all can race, lots of charter boats too and not particularly fast. What matters is having fun and these guys seem to be having a lot of fun.


----------



## PCP

Nice. Do you know how much watts has that engine?

I guess that boat with two of those hydro-generators that I posted about can go a long way motoring and considering that the boat needs very little wind to sail and while sailing it continues to produce 1Kw, it can probably cross the Atlantic with that.

The problem is that he has to keep moving....or go to a marina, unless it has also a small DC Generator, but they are heavy...at least 70kg

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

There is no info about engine. My guess it could be Kraeutler SDK-ED 8,0 AC with rotatable Sail-Drive (or SDK-ED 6,0 AC). Installed 4x Mastervolt MLI 24/160 Battery (each 4.3 kWh) = 17.2 kWh. To fully charge 2x MLI 24/160 cost about 65 cents > Electric Alerion Express 33, geek green


----------



## PCP

Traditional boats, this time British, mostly pilot cutters :


----------



## PCP

Yes, Old traditional boats are nice but very modern ones too. Look at Indio, a 100ft wally and see if these big animals are not gorgeous


----------



## PCP

I have posted already briefly about the Amel 55 but an interesting article posted on line by Yachtingworld Magazine is a pretext to talk more about this very particular long distance cruiser. If you want to know more they publish the sail test of the 55 on their May edition; meanwhile some excerpts of that article:

*
The cult of the Amel

These French bluewater cruisers are like no others on the market. Here's why:


Many people who buy a long-distance bluewater cruising yacht are retiring early, perhaps after selling a company. But for French engineer and wartime Resistance fighter Henri Amel it was the other way round.

M. Amel &#8230; known to his employees as 'le capitaine', started up the eponymous boatbuilding business when he was aged 50. He'd never run a business before.

In the decades until he died in 2005 (aged over 90 and involved until the last on a daily basis), the yard produced over 2,000 yachts that have cruised all over the world.

I have been having a look at their yard outside La Rochelle and at the history of the brand that gave us the Mango, the Santorin, the Maramu and the Super Maramu. To say that these yachts are distinctive would be an understatement.

There's nothing else that looks quite like an Amel.

Up to the launch of their new models, the 55 and 64, every Amel was largely designed by Henri Amel himself and sported features that were simultaneously slightly old-fashioned looking and cultishly enduring.

Amels were always well ahead of their time with features that the boss devised such as electric furling sails and the first bow thrusters to be fitted as standard on production yachts. 'Le capitaine' also insisted that ketches were easier for a cruising couple to handle and the philosophy never changed.
But the yachts were just as well known for their more obvious features such the maroon plastic rubbing strake, hard top, offset wheel and armchair helmsman's seat (now much imitated), solid stainless guardrails and - uniquely - their molded-in fake teak decks.

Amels were, and are, famous for being the ultimate standard production yacht. .. The company never encouraged nor offered many options. You got what they made. ..

The recipe was all-inclusive, from big items like electric furling and winches, watermaker, generator, washing machine and so on, right down to towels, bathrobes, spare filters, clothes hangers, a boat safe, deck brush and even a hairdryer.

That's changing now, as customers want more say over specification, but only up to a point. ..

One of the advantages of minimising variations, Amel argue (and I would tend to agree), is a higher degree of reliability. &#8230;.

I've seen Amels all over the place, in the most far-flung corners of the world, and have always found owners passionate about them. The older boats have an old-fashioned look, a sort of Seventies or Eighties vibe, with quirky but sensible ways of doing things, such as the special fittings on the main mast and the shrouds to allow twin headsails to be set up downwind.

The new model Amel 55, which my colleague Toby Hodges has tested for our next (May) issue is a style departure from the Santorins and Maramus and much more mainstream. But many of the hallmarks are there: the ketch rig, for example, the hard top and the transmission and propeller on the trailing edge of the keel.

And there is the helmsman's throne in the centre cockpit, the seaworthy pilot berth and athwartships galley, push-button sail controls - and, of course, the fake teak grain molded and painted into the decks.
....*

The cult of the Amel | Elaine Bunting's Blog | Yachting World

Henri Amel was practically blind for a considerable period of its activity as a naval designer and builder, and that did not prevent that his strong personality to mark all his boats.

Another characteristic of this shipyard was the very long life of each model before being replaced and the few models, that were for many years just one, I mean on their line, and now are two.

That seems to be changing a bit now, but since 1965 till now the shipyard only produced 10 models, Euro 39, Kirk, Meltem, Sharki, Santorin, Maramu, Super Maramu, 53/54, 64 and 55.

Henri Amel was also big has a human being. He retired in 1974 and he distributed all the shipyard shares to his workers. He died in 2005.

Regarding Amels I join the conservative gang. I find that the new 64 and 55 escapes the spirit of Amel. Too much luxury in there and a boat that starts to lose what made him unique. The Amel were expensive because it is expensive to make a truly offshore voyage boat but they were never about luxury but about seaworthiness and practicability. Things seems to be changing

The model I like more is the 54 that seems to be the end of a continuity of shapes and lines that made this boat unique.










*The Amel 54:*






*The actual models:*

*55*






*64*


----------



## EricKLYC

G1000 said:


> There is no info about engine. My guess it could be something like Mastervolt SailMaster 7.5 kW. It's required battery capacity for 6-8 hrs sailing 19.6 kWh and installed 4x Mastervolt MLI 24/160 Battery (each 4.3 kWh) = 17.2 kWh. To fully charge 2x MLI 24/160 cost about 65 cents > Electric Alerion Express 33, geek green


Also to me this first looked like a very good idea. A light, simple and service-free electric engine, ultra performant and light batteries, a rotating saildrive to help when docking...
But when I asked Structures about this they did'nt seem very fond of it themselves, at least not on a cruising boat. Very little autonomy, even with these expensive batteries that systematically degrade, just with time and whatever the use ...

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

Hi Erick,

Yes it makes sense what they say. A system like that makes only sense in two situations:

When it used only for day sailing (or from marina to marina when you can charge the batteries) or for racing where you only use the engine to take the boat out and in. For racing those batteries can also be used as home batteries and that consumption will be easily replaced by the use of a hydrogenerator.

If you want to have a system like that for really cruising you will have to have a powerful diesel generator....and goodbye advantages because the total weight will be far more than the one of a small engine not to mention price of the set-up.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Suspense till the end on the Vor70 leg to Auckland: The French of Groupama won the leg but on the limit. On the last days they where chocked to find out 1000kg of water on the bow.

They have arrived with a damaged bow with delamination and a boat making water. They suspect to have hit something hard and crashing on 27 ft waves made the rest. They have already the boat out of water and are working on it.





For second that big fight is still on but Puma made a spectacular recovery and is leading&#8230;just for some miles.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

For second is not yet finished but Puma made a spectacular recovery and is leading&#8230;just for some miles


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> There is no info about engine. My guess it could be Kraeutler SDK-ED 8,0 AC with rotatable Sail-Drive (or SDK-ED 6,0 AC). Installed 4x Mastervolt MLI 24/160 Battery (each 4.3 kWh) = 17.2 kWh. To fully charge 2x MLI 24/160 cost about 65 cents > Electric Alerion Express 33, geek green


Nice

I guess that one of these babies can power those batteries and give the boat a big autonomy assuming a use of engine not superior of 2/3 hours day and that is compatible with a sailboat with very good performance on light winds.

Marine Micro-Cogen for recreational and commercial vessels

In fact we are talking about a diesel electric system. The main problems would be price, weight, less power on the engine and the advantages would be less diesel consumption and lot's of energy for a watermaker, refrigerator and boat systems.

It will come the day that most propulsion systems on cruisers will be like that but for that we need better, lighter and less expensive batteries.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Look at this images of the battle for the Podium paces: Puma got 2th (the best result till know) but the spectacle was for the 3th place with Camper recovering over Telefonica.

Telefonica managed 3th but Camper finished just some meters behind. If the race was a mile longer they would have managed to overtake Telefonica. That was a pity, they would deserve the 3th place after the incredible come back on the last days.


----------



## PCP

I have noticed that the Sailnet pages are nicer now and that thanks to an add. Do you have noticed on the end of the page a nice logo with a beautiful sailboat? It seems that Sly is advertising on Sailnet and the add has not only a beautiful boat as also a nice graphic work. I have noticed also that they have an American dealer now. well, this post is just about a new Sly, the 38, a performance cruiser, nice and fast as all Sly.














































The boat comes in the same design approach of other Italian and Adriatic boats like the Salona 38, the Grand Soleil 39 or the Solaris 37, a very nice hull, very light (5.5T) with a very modern keel, one that maximize ballast, and even with that keel the boat as a big B/D ratio (39%).

That means a very stiff and powerful boat. That power with that sleek hull and low weight it will make it a very fast boat, specially upwind and with bad weather. Downwind that low weight and big Spinnaker (110m2) will make it very easy to plan.

They don't show the interior but Sly has very modern interior with good cruising potential and they advertise for this one a separated shower cabin and a good standard tankage for this type of boat.

This one seems to be a very nice performance cruiser one that will do good on the cruising grounds and that will kick ass in the regatta field

*Technical specs Sly 38
Length overall	11.50 m
Waterline length	10.25 m
Beam	3.70 m
Displacement	2.30 m
Draught	5.500 kg
Ballast	2.125 kg
Surface area of mainsail + jib 106% - 85 m2
Mainsail	49 m2
JIB 106%	36 m2
Spinnaker	110 m2
Engine	30 Hp
Diesel tank	120 Lt
Water tank	280 Lt

They say about the boat:

Sly 38 is conceived for peoples used to enjoy its passions for sailing and for regattas.  Hull and deck are made from sandwich of Termanto with E-glass and carbon, it's infused by Epoxy-Vinylester resin.

Features

Sly38 has an important sail plan, a middle-low displacement as well as efficient fin and bulb shape.  All these facts allows Sly38 to be really competitive both on IRC and ORC regulation. 
This Marco Lostuzzi's project perfectly complies with the today trend on hull shape ..

Interiors 

Interiors have two cabins and one head-compartment with a separate, very big shower box.  Some modular furniture that can be easy dismounted they allows to quickly conform Sly 38 to the regattas needs of space and lightness.

Deck 

Sly 38 has a large cockpit with open transom. The comfortable benches converge toward the companionway.
She has a narrow roof with long windows on the sides, that's typical of every Sly.  
..
Hull number 1 will be launched on June 2012.*

...


----------



## PCP

and some crazy stuff


----------



## PCP

Talking about the Volvo Ocean race predecessor, the Whitbread, there are some good things that were lost. The whitbread was an human adventure, with more amateurs than professionals, lots of boats, action and human drama.

Now all that you can still find on the Vendee Globe but not on the Volvo where all are very good professionals and many, specially on Telefonica and Groupama are used to circumnavigate in much more difficult conditions, I mean, solo or duo.

So let's have a look back to the whitbread and remember the times when this race was mostly an amateur adventure.

Regarding boat design, take a look at the boats, even the ones from the 90's and compare them with modern Volvos and see the huge advances in sailboat design, boat stability and speed.

That's true that the Volvos are fragile but that has nothing to do with design, just with getting a lighter boat to win. A revised rule in what regards weight could finish (and should) with that fragility.


----------



## PCP

Do you know Belem, the Frech tall ship, one of the oldest sailboat (no replica) around? the boat was built in Nante in 1896. Have a better look:






And don't miss this *Virtual Visit*:

visite virtuelle du bateau trois mâts Belem © Valéry Joncheray

...


----------



## PCP

The other circumnavigation race that is comparable in media attention and history with the Volvo Ocean Race is the Vendee Globe. The Vendee globe contrary to the Whitbread/VOR has always maintained the same basic rules and it was always a race for Open racing boats.

It is not as old as the Whitbread, but if we consider the VOR in its actual format, a lot older:The next edition that will start already in November will be the 7th edition. The first Vendee was in 1989.

The Vendee Globe is now also a race done almost exclusively by professionals but with a degree of adventure and human exploit that the Volvo cannot reach. On the Volvo they are almost all specialists on that race (except Groupama that have many solo sailors and guys from racing big cats) while on the Vendee Globe even if the victory is played among specialists, that are always a lot of adventurers and dreamers doing the race for the fun of it. On the Volvo you are very well paid to do it.

This year's edition inscription is not closed yet and in these times of crisis you have already 18 on and 11 trying to complete a budget. That's a huge number if compared with the Volvo.

Among those and regarding the non specialists you have some very interesting entries:

An Australian girl, Liz Wardley. She started her carrier on hobbie cats, won the Sydney-Hobbart , done the 2001 VOR but then moved to France were she competed on the solo classes. She finished 8th on the 2007 French solo offshore championship and since then she was not done much. Pity she has an old boat. I believe she is going to fight on this race.

Another interesting one, more an adventurer than a racer, Alessandro di Benedeto an Italian. His last exploit was a non stop circumnavigation on a mini. Pity he is also on an old boat (1998). Just look at what he has accomplished: 
- 2009-2010: Non-stop solo round the world voyage without outside help on a 6.50 metre boat
- 2006: Pacific crossing from Yokohama to San Francisco, sailing solo on a racing catamaran
- 2002: Solo Atlantic crossing on a racing catamaran
- 2001: First solo voyage from Northern Italy to the Canary Islands on a racing catamaran 
- 1992-1993: Mediterranean and Atlantic crossing from Sicily to Martinique, double-handed aboard a racing catamaran.

But my favorite, still looking to complete her Budget, is Anne Liardet. Anne was an active solo racer. Back in 1985 she was the first woman to complete a mini transat, she finished the 2004/2005 Vendee and her last important race was back in 2007. She has been occupied raising her three kids and now, *SHE IS BACK*, and the age seems not matter (she is 50 year's old).


----------



## smackdaddy

Say hello to the "Most Interesting Sailboat in the World"

1998 Wavepiercer Flint Design Trimaran Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

"I don't often sail, but when I do, I prefer to look like a bonehead."


----------



## PCP

Jesus Smack, what a piece of crap

That can even work as a displacement motor boat but in what regards a sailboat the thing has more windage than sails:laugher














































Regards

Paulo


----------



## overbored

Saw it a few months ago anchored off Dana Point. wasn't sure what we were looking at so we sailed closer but not to close. up close it looks like some one took a derelict mono and added some paddle boards. looked very rough. Are those PHRF sail numbers? very ugly indeed


----------



## PCP

Yes overbored, ugly no doubt about it!

Talking about circumnavigation races there are one that is going on that I find a pity the small number of participants and the press coverage. I think this race has the potential to be a major race. I am talking about the Global Ocean race that is raced in inexpensive 40class boats on duo crews.

Not only almost everybody will be able to do this one as it will be easy to find competitive boats and that is not the case with the Vendee Globe.

I hope one day we will see 30 or 40 boats racing on this one
















Some great stories:

Global Ocean Race 2011-12 : Home

Global Ocean Race 2011-12 : Home

Global Ocean Race 2011-12 : Home

Global Ocean Race 2011-12 : Home

....


----------



## PCP

First photos of the Dufour 36 performance on the water:





































*Video:*

Dufour 36 Performance : l'élégance et la modernité

*Virtual Tour:*

36 - Performance - DUFOUR Yachts

I also read the first boat test...they all say very well about the boat...but it without much enthusiasm, or at least it was what seemed to me.

I am not convinced: 6400Kg on a performance 36ft? Well it could be a boat with a very high B/D ratio and that could justify the weight that would result in a very big RM, but no, the boat has a very average 0.296. Well that is almost a ton more than on my old Bavaria 36!!!...and the worse is that the boat, that could be a an interesting good looking cruising boat, because it is disguised as a racer, has very small movable cockpit lockers and an interior as "clean" as one from a racing boat, I mean, almost no cabinets on the salon.

To just put that weight in perspective, the Elan 350 weights 5000kg, the First 35 weights 5500kg the A35 weights 4450kg and the new Salona 35 weights 4900kg.

....


----------



## PCP

The Australians from McConaghy are responsible for some of the best sailboats around, racing and cruising and they have just announced a partnership to build a 60ft cat, and what a cat.

I believe this one is going to be a very successful boat and we are going to hear more about it in a near future. Take a look at the Mc2 60:


----------



## PCP

A boat circumnavigation world record (all categories, including motorboats) in 3 minutes of great images






The Jules Verne Trophy in 3 minutes - in HD! from Brian Thompson on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

New photorealistic image of the RM1260:










Take a look at a different boat, a wooden and a popular one. Ok it has epoxy on the marine plywood but it is still basically a wooden boat. Take a look at the hull and interior structure, including the steel one for the keel:

Retournement de la coque du RM 1260

...


----------



## PCP

On Yacht magazine they have tested the Dufour 36 performance. The boat really looks good on the water and it seems that notwithstanding its weight it sails well and fast. That extra weight is really a pity.

I wonder why? they say they use vacuum infused technology and cored hulls so the boat should not weight that much, specially with that "clean" interior.

The test will be at the magazine and it can be downloaded in PDF.

*The movie* of that test:

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Dufour-36%3A-Kraftpaket-im-Test/287b02a87912cc7425884c07d0bee023

...


----------



## PCP

Some posts back I posted the Sly 38 but they have another new boat, the Sly 54 and don't ask me why they have changed the 53 that seemed still a very "new" boat. Take a look at the 53:

http://www.sly-yachts.com/uploads/c3/5f/c35f4738eabb0584d0a4ae3c44c14b98/Sly-53-Brochure.pdf



















The 54 seems to have the same hull, a different bowsprit and a nicer interior with bigger hull ports, more practical for extensive cruising. Hard to improve on an almost perfect boat
































































They don't say but I believe that the boat will continue to weight about the same as a medium displacement 40ft and will have almost half its weight on ballast, almost all at 2.7m on a torpedo bulb. Yes, a very very stiff boat with a huge stability and the power to carry a big sail area.

I really like this one. The boat is narrow and even if the interior space has nothing to do with a Benetau Vision 50, It has just the right dimension for 4 people to live comfortably and because, as someone has said, the difficulty of handling the boat with a short crew has more to do with weight than with length, it should not be very difficult to sail solo, conservatively.

I will consider this one when I won the lottery.

...


----------



## PCP

M34, not a nice name for a sailboat, especially for a good one.

The M34 is made by Archambault, it is a one class racer and the boat that is used for the "Tour de France" and for the French offshore crew championship. Take a look:


----------



## PCP

The "Around NZ race" still goes on and the results are informative about boats performance and they are specially interesting because there are all kind of boats there, old and new, racers and cruisers and they seem to be all very well sailed.

On the last leg the surprise was the very good performance of old cruising boats, with heavy weather and upwind sailing. The First 44.7 seems as good downwind as upwind.

Particularly an old SS 39 sailed by an old couple made an astonishing good result, coming 2th overall with 8 08:41:32 while the First 44.7 had done it in 7 20:36:37. Also a very good result from a cruising Cavalier 45 that took 3th with 8 09:00:15. The racing downwind boats were beaten with a Pogo retiring and the Tiller 10.5 and a Ross 12 doing respectively 9 14:55:00 and 8 09:24:26.

On the third leg they are having mostly downwind sailing and on those conditions the little Tiller 10.5 can go almost as fast as the big First 44.7 and the SS39 and the Cavalier 45 are a long, long way behind.

Round New Zealand Two Handed leg 3 - Powered by Yellowbrick Tracking

I have already posted this, but take a new look at the boats and see what I mean regarding upwind, overall good performance boats and downwind boats.


----------



## PCP

Racing and sailing in the 30's:


----------



## PCP

Have you heard about the BORA, the Adriatic wind? I never have met it but after this images I don't have any desire to encounter it!


----------



## HMoll

Hmmm...that McC2 sure shares some pencil lines with the SIG45!


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> Hmmm...that McC2 sure shares some pencil lines with the SIG45!


Well, the Sig 45 is a great cat...but a lot smaller and I would say almost afordable. The MC2 will cost probably a fortune I like both a lot.

..........

From S. Francisco, some great images of the Melges Championship:


----------



## PCP

And CAMPER wins at home: Nice


----------



## PCP

There is another ocean race on, "La Solidaire du Chocolat", a transat with a crew of two on 40class boats.

Riechers and Marc are leading with Bestaven and Eric in hot pursue:

La Solidaire Du Chocolat










La Solidaire du chocolat a mis le cap sur le... _por paysdelaloire_


----------



## pellot

Hello,

Have you see the keel weight?
It is 1900 kg
It is heavier than a lot of competitors.
Are you sure the weight of your bavaria 36 is correct ? Is it a Bavaria wheight, or is it a real wheight?
Some yards report false wheight... Lighter than the real one

Bye


----------



## PCP

pellot said:


> Hello,
> 
> Have you see the keel weight?
> It is 1900 kg
> It is heavier than a lot of competitors.
> Are you sure the weight of your bavaria 36 is correct ? Is it a Bavaria wheight, or is it a real wheight?
> Some yards report false wheight... Lighter than the real one
> 
> Bye


I guess you are talking about the Dufour 36 performance?

Yes I am right about the Bavaria 36, not the last model but the previous model. That one weighted about 5.5T and was a light boat with a keel with only 1500kg of ballast on the 1.65m keel draft and if I remember correctly only 1 300Kg on the optional 1.9m keel.

http://www.ayc.hr/technical/36.pdf

The actual model is a very different boat, stronger (I guess) and heavier with 7T and 2080 kg of ballast.

Bavaria Yachtbau: Technical Data

Regarding the Dufour Keel weight (1900kg) it has to be superior than the competition (for the same effect) because the boat is heavier (6.4T).

Dufour 36: Sailing Joy as Guiding Theme | Boats.com Blog

What matters is the type of keel (the Dufour has one that maximizes ballast effect), the draft and the B/D ratio (0.297) and of course, the shape of the hull.

If we compare in that matter the Dufour 36 performance with the First 35 (that has a similar keel and the same draft) we will see that the B/D ratio is bigger (0,304) even if its ballast is only of 1670kg.

Beneteau First 35 Racer/cruiser: Sailing Boats | Boats Online for Sale | Grp, Sandwich | Western Australia (WA) - Perth Wa

The difference in weight between the Dufour 36p and the First 35 is of almost a Ton, and that is a lot on a performance boat, specially on a 35/36ft boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

ORCI world championship is still an amateur championship, but among the amateur races it starts to build a solid reputation. Mostly raced by performance cruisers, it was hosted last year in Croatia and this year will be raced in Finland, in August. There are already 120 entries and the number is certainly going to rise.

Entries » Audi ORC International World Championship 2012

Some great images of last year championship:


----------



## PCP

*On dynamic stability*

On another thread about boat keels, comparing Fin keels with long keels I have made some comments that I will post here as an introduction of a post about my thoughts on boat stability:

So, taken from another thread and regarding dynamic stability: Fin keel versus fin keel:

Are you familiar with the term "tripping on the keel"?



















(Regarding to what Tony Marchaj says on "Seawortiness the forgoten factor") there are 30 years of sailboat design between that book and today and 30 years where mathematical computing models of boats and hydrodynamics and tank testing have assumed a main role to understand dynamic stability and the way a boat reacts with the sea.

But more than what those studies have shown I would say that more was learned with the pragmatical work of many Naval Architects and many thousands of designs and the assessment that was made of those designs mostly by racers, that in some cases were also the designers.

Regarding waves, breaking waves are the only real danger for a monohull and you don't find them only near shore. With a formed sea with big waves and over 35K winds the top of the waves break and if the wave is big, the top of the wave are many tons of water. On that drawing is that what is happening: it is not all the wave that is breaking (like in a beach) but just the top.

By any mean I want to say that full keels are dangerous, just showing that they have also some disadvantages in what regards seaworthiness and namely in what regards dynamic stability.

Those drawings are pages of a book written by one of the biggest sailors of all times, Eric Tabarly. He was not a theorist but you can be sure he knows what he was talking about. He raced what was then modern boats (transats, circumnavigations) and him and the guys that were behind the designs he sailed had an important role in the development of today's modern hull shapes, rudders and keels.

And I am saying that he knows about what he is talking about because he did not only sailed extensively racing boats but also its family boat (that he loved) the Pen Duick, an old and beautiful old full keeler.










Well, as Leonard da Vinci once said: *"Experience is the mother of all Knowledge"* and Marchaj had some but not much in what regards sailing.

On other hand, experience, with full keelers and fin keelers was a thing that Eric Tabarly had in huge amounts: *"A former officer in the French navy who is often considered the father of French yachting"*.






Marchaj made a notable theorist work trying to explain reality (based on 35 year old sailing boats) trough equations and mathematical calculations but let me tell you that even if static stability is a simple and forward thing, dynamic stability is a very complicated subject (the interaction of a variable sea motion with a boat and its effects on boat stability) and even today with all tank testing and mathematical computer aided models it is far from being a settled matter.

But if the science is still messing around with dynamic stability Naval Architects have been working on the model of the best boat to fast and safely cross oceans. Probably nothing as contributed as much to the knowledge of dynamic stability than the 35 years of designing small boats to solo crossing oceans, what is called the Mini class racing:

Classe]Classe Mini Mini

What was learned with these boats influenced bigger sailing boats, racing and cruising, in an extent that can be considered probably as the biggest influence on modern yacht design, and what was learned had all to do with dynamic stability.

....


----------



## PCP

A break here, to report that Abu Dhabi is back in Port with a bulkhead that pop out of place in big waves and lot's of wind. The fleet is heading to huge seas and upwind 40k of wind so they decide to enter for a quick repair.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Abu Dhabi safely back in Auckland to carry out repairs






Sanya managed to be first out of Port but some hours later is Camper that is leading with a short lead over Puma while Telefonica is playing another game.

Things are going to be hot on the next days.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

Back to boat stability:

Ten years ago I had already an interest in boat design and particularly in boat stability and seaworthiness. I had read already a lot about stability and had left behind the nonsense of the capsize ratio and had a good understanding of the static stability. Had already seen a lot of GZ curves (arm length curve) and understood the importance of weight on the RM curve ( you obtain a RM curve multiplying each point of the GZ curve by the boat displacement).

The area behind the positive part of the GZ curve represents the energy needed to capsize a boat and because you obtain the RM curve multiplying the GZ curve by the boat displacement, weight is an important factor in static stability.

I was trying to find some answers about that here, a lot of years ago:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/11338-how-heavy-too-heavy-ii.html

At that time I was asking myself what the right weight should an offshore boat have and made a lot of comparisons with the RM stability curve of the boat I had with stability curves of boats that I would like to have (bigger boats) to establish a minimum AVS and a minimum RM area, regarding what I wanted for my next boat.



















And then my attention was focused in two facts:

1 - The OVNI 43 (and 435) had a lousy static stability curve with a relatively low AVS but it was justly considered as one of the best offshore and voyage boat, a seaworthy boat that sailed everywhere without any problem.

That was the boat that Jimmy Cornell had chosen for himself after several circumnavigations in heavy boats, and a boat that deserved from him the biggest praises in what regards seaworthiness: A light aluminum centerboarder, the type of boat he still consider as ideal for offshore voyaging and circumnavigation.

2 - Add the minis, an incredible small and light boat (26ft and about 1T) obviously with a small RM curve (big GZ curve but small RM curve because the boat is very light), a boat that needs a small amount of energy to be capsized and that had crossed the Atlantic racing , year after year, sometimes with bad weather, in huge number (each race has about 70 boats), without any significant problem. One of them has even circumnavigated non-stop.

So, there is something wrong with basing the stability and the seaworthiness in what regards stability only on the Static stability.

Obviously the Dynamic stability counts for much in the capacity a boat has to resist capsizing and contrary to a very popular opinion I don't think it has nothing to do with the roll moment of inertia, or the boat mass. If it had, the Miniclass racers or the light OVNI (with little inertia) would be boats that would be easily capsized.

It has all to do with the way a boat dissipates the energy of a breaking wave:

if the boat transform all that energy in a rolling movement (tripping on the keel) the chances are that the boat will capsize. If the boat can dissipate the energy of the wave in a kinetic movement (sliding laterally) the chances are that the boat can resist capsizing.

A heavy boat needs objectively much more energy to be capsized but if most of the wave energy is transformed in a rolling movement tank testing shows that it does not matter much. Any breaking wave over 1/3 of the LOA of the boat can capsize it (no matter the weight) if the boat does not transform the wave energy in kinetic movement.
The energy of a breaking wave is so big that to have a bit more or a bit less RM does not matter much.

So, in what regards dynamic stability what counts most is all that facilitates the dissipation of the wave energy trough kinetic movement (instead of a rolling movement):

Low mass, small underwater appendices (keel and rudder), low freeboard, beam and of course a proportionally high RM (that will not be big in absolute value because the boat has a low mass).

As you probably have already noticed this description suits well in a Mini class racer, or a 40class racer or in an Open 60, that are boats whose hull shape has been developed for transatlantic and circumnavigation solo racing, where ease of use and stability are paramount.

And because NAs are not stupid this tendency is also a marked tendency on modern cruising boats, I mean small appendices, low mass and beam even if low freeboard is hard to get giving the needs of interior space.

Dynamic stability is very important but that does not mean that Static stability is meaningless. I would say that there are still some very important points to consider:

The RM force the boat is making to right itself up at 90º is probably the most important, others are the AVS point, the downflooding point and the proportion between the positive and negative part of the curve.

The Max RM is also important but that is not an absolute value and it is proportional to the weight of the boat and the sail area it needs to sail. I would say that a GZ max value gives a better picture here, becuase it is a comparable value with boats with diferent mass, if the LOA is not very different.

However Static stability it is not definitively the only thing to look at when considering the implications of stability on boat seaworthiness even if it is a lot more meaningful than the old capsize ratio.

These are basically my thoughts about boat stability. I am sure that I know more than some years back, but probably I will know more in the future, so please don't consider this as a finnished subject.

It is not closed for me and even less for the ones that know more than me and that design sailingboats. Regarding those, you can bet they will use what they know for building better and faster boats, so you have just to look at what they are doing, especially in what concerns offshore racing where stability is not only fundamental to safety but also to carry more sail and to have faster boats.

With time that knowledge will be used to make better, faster and safer cruising sailboats.

....


----------



## MikeWhy

> Take a look at a different boat, a wooden and a popular one. Ok it has epoxy on the marine plywood but it is still basically a wooden boat.


LOL. "Wooden boat", to me, as a concept, has wooden timbers and a planked hull. Plywood is made with wood, but the concept is really that of composites.


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## PCP

Well it is not a fiberglass boat and is made of wood or plywood if you want.

Not many boats are built like that and RM is the only boat builder with a significant production that make the boats that way. Lots of smaller French boat builders use plywood but mostly for smaller sailing boats.

Another nice image:










Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

I have said that things in the VOR promised to be interesting. Well, look at this:

Strong gale force winds in excess of 45 knots have joined forces with six metre waves in a gang-attack against the fleet that has left sailors and boats reeling in pain.

But the fleet has remained defiant said CAMPER skipper Chris Nicholson who is amazed by the punishment the Volvo Open 70s are enduring.
...
Nicholson admitted some surprise to have survived the battering unscathed up to this point. "So far we haven't broken anything which is almost surprising given how hard we have been coming off these waves," he said.

"When we get 45 knots, above 35 knots, we are slowing the boat down a bit to get through it. It should stay at 25 to 30 knots (of wind) tonight and then slowly ease back into the low twenties. So we have to just get through tonight with everything in one piece."

Despite the tough conditions Nicholson said the CAMPER crew had made few concessions and were pushing hard whenever possible despite the almost impossible environment on deck. 
..
"*(On deck) you can't stand up. If you move anywhere you are crawling around on your hands and knees clipped on. Every little job that we take for granted normally is now a bit of a procedure.*

"Everything has a high level of difficulty with it. Just to go over to the leeward side of the boat to ease a sheet the driver has to ease up a little bit otherwise that person gets washed down the deck."

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Defiant fleet on their knees, but battling on






Back on the race Telefonica due to that brilliant move (I confess that it did only seem odd to me at the time) is leading, Camper is following, Groupama is recovering and overtake Puma and they are all pushing hard.

The ice limit was moved up and that is a pity because the big downwind winds are now off limits

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

This one goes to the category: What the hell are they doing?






And this one to the category :






and this one to the category: Nice boats, nice sailing


----------



## PCP

The ones that find that some of the sailboats I post here looks like spaceships will be right regarding this one. This one does not like to a sailboat at all and probably that has to do with being designed by aerospace engineers.

Take a look:























































Even the name seems more appropriated for a fighter jet than to a sail boat: V-44 Albatros

They say about the "boat":

*v-44 Albatross has 'three axis control' similar to a conventional fixed wing aircraft. At high speed, the boat is effectively flown at very low altitude using active control in all three axis.

The three axis are:

1.	yaw from foot rudder pedals controlling the rudder;
2.	roll from control stick left / right movement, similar to ailerons on conventional aircraft. The aerodynamic design enables roll control without lift cross coupling;
3.	height above surface from control stick fore / aft movement controlling overall lift / power of wing-sails.

There is no other sailing boat which has this degree of active control. The benefit of this approach is to give prolonged periods of the hulls remaining completely free from the surface of water, minimising a major drag component.

The boat can sail on both port and starboard tack; the wing-sails and keels roll through 90 degrees as the v-44 turns through the wind.

The maximum speed of the boat is the cavitation speed of the keel. This is maximized by using a cambered keel section and transposing between two keels as the boat tacks.

The skipper is able to actively maintain a boat speed just under the cavitation speed of the keel across a range of sailing conditions.

Max velocity: 70K	
*

...


----------



## PCP

When things go really wrong


----------



## PCP

One of the most interesting guys on the next vendee Globe is Alessandro di Benedetto. He passed directly from a Miniclass racer to an Open 60. That's like going from a Kart to a F1.

Alessandro has completed recently a circumnavigation solo and nonstop with a mini class racer and not an easy one. He lost its mast at midway, jury rigged and without outside help finished the circumnavigation under jury rig as if it was a minor problem. A resourceful gay to say the least and a hell of a sailor.






Compare both boats and look at the happiness in his face just looking at his new big toy:


----------



## PCP

An on the other side of the world, at least for me, guys had a great time in an incredibly beautiful scenery on the "Bay regatta", cruisers ad racers alike:


----------



## PCP

And on this race hecan see some very interesting boats that don't appear much if at all on these part of the world. Look at the Firefly 850 a One Design fast cat for coastal racing or weekend cruising, a Mark Pescott design:


----------



## G1000

My post is a bit of topic, but how about carbon fibre hull to act as a battery bank? 

BBC News - BAE provides details of 'structural battery' technology


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> My post is a bit of topic, but how about carbon fibre hull to act as a battery bank?
> 
> BBC News - BAE provides details of 'structural battery' technology


*"The beauty of what we've got is that, when it's fully developed, a company will be able to go out and buy what is a standard carbon-composite material, lay out the shape, put it through the curing process and have a structural battery," ...

In order to achieve this BAE said it had "merged battery chemistries into composite materials".

"You take the nickel base chemistries and there are ways you can integrate that into the carbon fibre," . &#8230;

"The goal, and we are still working towards it, is to have a material that isn't significantly more expensive than carbon fiber,"
&#8230;.
However, the power density of the batteries, the energy they can store for a given weight, is currently quite low - about a third that of a car battery&#8230;.

"You need a battery chemistry that will last for many decades, you basically can't just take a wing off and throw it away as you would a mobile phone [battery]," Mr Penney said.
*

BBC News - BAE provides details of 'structural battery' technology

This is just awesome and I guess that the reporter did not understood the potential of the new technology&#8230;.quite low? The guy is crazy they talk about 1/3 of the energy that can be stored for the same weight on a car battery, that is huge. If a hull of a 36ft boat is entirely made with this kind of composite it means we will have a 3 to 4 ton battery. That means the capacity of a wet lead battery of 1ton on a boat.

I want one of those, one boat that has a huge batery that can work for decades that weights nothing and that after fully charged will permit the use of an electric engine for days.

I guess that will solve the battery problem on electric engines for sailing boats.

Even compared with lithium batteries the hull of a 36ft boat will have the capacity of a huge battery, a 400kg lithium battery is a lot. And that is now; I bet they will manage to increase that efficiency at least for the double in the next years.

I guess that the solution for the autonomy for electric sailboats is found. What they really not found yet is that technology has an enormous potential on the boat industry.

Now they only need to create sails that work as solar panels to have a perfect set-up for a really efficient sail boat. The technology for that is not far.

Thanks for posting

Regards

Paulo


----------



## mitiempo

With the hull as a battery I wouldn't give the underwater metal (prop, shaft, through hulls) a long life - a few weeks at most. And forget about a marina stay.


----------



## PCP

mitiempo said:


> With the hull as a battery I wouldn't give the underwater metal (prop, shaft, through hulls) a long life - a few weeks at most. And forget about a marina stay.


Maybe you are right but for guys that are dealing with so advanced technology I don't think that would be a problem. It would only be needed that the outside skin of the hull would be isolated. But I really don't know enough about that technology or about the subject to speculate 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

On the Volvo Ocean race bad luck for Sanya. When they were leading for the first time&#8230;they broke one of the rudders and on the hard conditions of the Southern ocean the Solo sailors of Groupama comes out with flying colors overtaking everybody and leading the race.

I mean the Groupama is not solo sailed but the among their crew there is a huge percentage of guys that have a huge experience of solo sailing and that means used to very though circumstances and capable to do anything in a boat from steering to navigation to regulate sails.

From the beginning I was very interested in seeing if the finer crew specialization on other boats would turn out to be an advantage against the superior polyvalence of Groupama crew. It seems that at the beginning that played against them but now that they become better, the polyvalence and superior individual global ability seems to turn things in their favor.

Great racing out there.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

They are heading for bad seas and big winds. I bet we will have great footage tomorrow.


----------



## G1000

Anyone wants to spent next 30 min speechless?  Go to Acciona Sailing's photo stream


----------



## PCP

First sailing pictures of the Hanse 415, first sailing tests, it is time to speack again about the Hanse 415. I have already said that my feelings are mixed in what regards this boat:

I like the hull, the keel, the rig and I hate the interior not because it is that bad but because with a really good interior this boat could be a hell of a boat. To be honest the interior is probably better than the Hanse 400 that this one comes to substitute and the Hanse 400 was a sales success not properly because of its interior but because of the way it sailed, its flexibility (epoxy hull as an option) and seaworthiness.

The guys from Yacht magazine say (after testing) that this one is a better boat and I believe them. Looking at the boat and to its specifications it looks also a better boat to me.

All new boats on this class are great boats, the new Oceanis 41, the Jeanneau 409 and now the Hanse 415.

Personally I like more the Jeanneau and the Hanse that seems to me more sportive than the Oceanis and with a superior possibility of upgrade through proposed options. Of course, those upgrades will turn a relatively inexpensive boat in a better but considerably more expensive boat

The Jeanneau is a lighter boat and probably slightly fast in light wind, at least with the performance option but i think that it will be an even mach with medium wind and with strong wind the Hanse will perform slightly better.

As Jeanneau advantages, besides the weight, the Jeanneau has a true traveler for the main and a big one for that matter.

The Hanse has the possibility of an epoxy hull as an option (stronger boat), and also the winch position that gives a much better flexibility. The jeanneau has only 2 winches on the cockpit and cannot mount more (and two over the cabin). The Hanse has 4 winces on the cockpit (and none over the cabin) and that permits a much more easy use on solo or short crew sailing. I don't know if they still do that, but Hanse allowed the dealers to install a traveler on the cockpit if the clients would prefer that solution (that implied no cockpit table).

If I was interested on a main stream inexpensive 40ft, I would surely test sail this two and would compare with attention the real price of the boat the way I wanted, discounts and so on.

To my taste Jeanneau has a better looking interior with a much better outside views through the port hulls and that is a big plus, but you never know before sailing both boats. I certainly would compare the feeling at the wheel and would see how much more easy is to maneuver with the 4 winches on the cockpit...and of course, that epoxy hull would be a temptation.

Hanse Yachts


----------



## PCP

Uau!!! take a look at the baby Shipman:










Well baby is a way of saying but if we consider that the big boy has 120ft, this one with 57 is less than half the size.

It will be the smaller on the line of the Danish builder, as all the others will be made of carbon...and the image show what seems to be a big bank of solar cells.

Nice, the boat and the solar cells.


----------



## PCP

On the "Around the NZ race" an old Farr 11.7 is showing that in some conditions it is still a very fast boat. On upwind light conditions the Farr leaved behind all fast modern upwind boats and is not far from the leader, a Benetau 44.7 that is also a good upwind boat.

Round New Zealand Two Handed leg 4 - Powered by Yellowbrick Tracking


----------



## PCP

Jboats are the more European of all American sailboats, the only one that is made in Europe too and the American one that sell more here.

The have a new boat on the water, the J70, beautiful as usual. We have already talked about it when it was on the drawing board, let's talk a bit more:




























*They say about the boat:

The J/70 introduces a new dimension of fun, fast sailing in a stable, easy to own boat. A natural evolution of its J pedigree, the J/70's 22-foot long waterline with high aspect, all carbon rig and lifting keel provides spirited performance and stability that feels like a much larger boat. Knifing through the water upwind with confidence and ease, the J/70 has that legendary "J" feel - light, controllable with a wide-groove to sail consistently fast. With an adjustable backstay, one has total control over sail shape and dynamic rig tension across the full range of conditions, making it not only easy to change gears on the J/70, but faster and safer. Off the wind, J/70 will simply light-up the crew with a smile! Set the masthead asymmetrical spinnaker off the retractable carbon bowsprit, point the J/70 where you want with its high-aspect rudder and the J/70 pops up on a plane and takes off in moderate breeze.

Sailor Friendly

J/70 is all about making sailing inclusive, not exclusive. With its easily driven hull, large cockpit, and manageable three sail inventory, the J/70 is perfect for three adults, two couples, or four juniors. Sailing is about friends, it's the joy of sharing the experience with others. When your family and friends can enjoy sailing in all weather, the return on investment will be high.

Trailerable - Easy Transport & Launching

In today's crowded harbors, it's not always possible or economical to own a permanent mooring, marina slip or rent space in a dry lot with crane. J/70 offers a practical solution. Launch at the local boat ramp, raise the lightweight all carbon rig, lower the keel, hoist the sails and off you go on a sailing adventure in less than 30 minutes. The only limitations are how far you want to drive and willingness to camp in the great outdoors. Trailerable behind a family minivan or SUV, you can go anywhere. *

I bet that it will be a lot of fun to sail but at about twice the price of the new Bavaria I am afraid it will not sell much, at least in Europe. We will see! It would be interesting to compare the performance of both boats even if one is a centerboarder and the other a foil keeler. After all they target the same type of sailors.


----------



## PCP

First photos of the Bavaria Vision on the water: Nice



















So finally Bavaria had contracted an outside interior good designer gabinet to make the interior. Jesus it took time!!!! and the improvements on design quality are obvious:




























And the reality looks good:



























































































And the interesting thing is that this boat was originally thought to live aboard extensively and not to have a lot of people for some short vacations.

You can see that the standard design has only a big head and a huge storage space and also lots of cabinets in the cabins. Of course, the boat can have two heads and two back cabins but it was not the primary design criteria:



















Regarding what concerns the sailing "part" this boat has a nice hull, with less beam than the Jeanneau 45 (4.19 to 4.37) and a much bigger LWL (12.83 to 11.45).

Regarding ballast the ratio is about the same, 0,284 to the Jeanneau and 0.281 to the vision. the boats have the same type of bulbed keels but the Vision has more Draft ( 2.14 to 2.05) so in the end the result is about the same. The ballast ratio seems adequate for this size and type of boat.

But the main difference between the two boats is the weight that is significantly more on the Vision (12,300 to 10,400kg). This extra weight is compensated by a superior sail area (103m2 to 79,3m2) . In the end the Bavaria will be a faster boat with a bigger stability. The sail area displacement ratio is a lot bigger on the Vision: 19,66 to 16.84.

The Vision also have as option very high quality sail wardrobe.

I will watch out for the first sailing impressions on boat tests buy I bet this is a good sailboat with lots of stability, capable of a good average speed.

We can see that the running rigging is adapted to solo or short crew sailing, using the same solution we have saw on the Hanse 415, with 4 winches on the cockpit and in this case with an extra one on the cabin top.

We can also see that on options list besides the all omnipresent electric winches they offer bigger manual winches everywhere for all that really like to sail and push the boat.

I like this one. It seems one step further than the competition in what regards sailing, for this type of boats. We see if this first impression will be confirmed by the test sails.

I find it also a good looking boat, outside and inside and that is really a new thing, I mean a big Bavaria looking this good


----------



## Faster

Certainly a vast improvement in appearance over the most recent Bavaria Cruiser series..


----------



## SloopJonB

Nice. I like that new style of deck structure with the big cats eye portlights- good to see the "running shoe" look die out finally. I would be willing to give up a couple of feet of waterline to get some bow overhang though - I think it would vastly improve the boats looks.

The interiors are a bit IKEA for my taste but you sure can't argue with their space and effectiveness for living onboard. Wonder what leaded glass cabinet doors and carved wood would look like on one of those?


----------



## PCP

Hey guys, do you know what is the biggest difference between a Swedish regatta and an Italian one?






*THE NOISE!!!!!*

Seriously that was on the 2010 Giraglia that is probably the biggest race on the med at least in the number of participants. Only some months to the 60th edition:

*The 60th Giraglia Rolex Cup is organized by the Yacht Club Italiano in collaboration with the Yacht Club de France, the Société Nautique de Saint-Tropez and the Yacht Club Sanremo. The event is run under the supervision of the Federazione Italiana Vela, the Fédération Française de Voile.

The 2012 Giraglia Rolex Cup will be 60th anniversary of the event and the 16th edition to be sponsored by Rolex, which has been a partner of the event since 1997. The 60th Giraglia Rolex Cup comprises a serie of inshore races in the Gulf of Saint-Tropez, followed by a 241nm offshore race via La Giraglia islet, off Corsica, to Sanremo in Italy.*

Some images from the last two editions:


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## SloopJonB

I don't like the look of that seat hatch opening into the interior of the boat like that. It looks pretty vulnerable to water boarding from the stern - the lower lip is barely above the cockpit sole.

In a situation like that I'd want a proper hatch type entry into the "bosun's locker".

Or am I missing something?


----------



## SimonV

this is a nice craft








Image stolen from faster.....:chaser


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## PCP

I guess you mean the cat behind that blue "thing"

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

SloopJonB said:


> I don't like the look of that seat hatch opening into the interior of the boat like that. It looks pretty vulnerable to water boarding from the stern - the lower lip is barely above the cockpit sole.
> 
> In a situation like that I'd want a proper hatch type entry into the "bosun's locker".
> 
> Or am I missing something?


Hard to say, never been inside the Vision 46. That would have to do with the downflooding angle of the boat but I would bet that it is a good one.

If you are talking about the very rare possibility of a roll and staying upside down, the possibility of water coming that way is common to almost all boats that have a bigge side locker (with only one cabin on the back). If you want to make that compartment water tight it would be possible but expensive. To be water tight ypu would have to eliminate the possibility of accessing it by the interior of the boat and that is a huge disadvantage in what concerns living aboard.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

PCP said:


> Back to boat stability:..
> 
> Obviously the Dynamic stability counts for much in the capacity a boat has to resist capsizing and contrary to a very popular opinion *I don't think it has nothing to do with the roll moment of inertia,* or the boat mass. If it had, the Miniclass racers or the light OVNI (with little inertia) would be boats that would be easily capsized.
> 
> It has all to do with the way a boat dissipates the energy of a breaking wave:
> 
> if the boat transform all that energy in a rolling movement (tripping on the keel) the chances are that the boat will capsize. If the boat can dissipate the energy of the wave in a kinetic movement (sliding laterally) the chances are that the boat can resist capsizing.
> 
> ........


Some clarification about this (taken from another thread):

There are other factors that contribute to dynamic stability and I don't think that one is the more important. Really important is everything that contributes to dissipate the wave energy in kinetic lateral movement and detrimental is everything that contributes to transform that energy in a rotational movement.

I would say that the main factors that contribute to allow the dissipation of energy through a lateral movement are a small area of submersed surface, a small freeboard and a big righting moment (not necessarily at big angles of heel because when boats slide sideways in a wave the heel is not much) and a low inertia.

Regarding inertia and roll moment of inertia, let's consider two boats with the same positive area under the RM curve, and therefore needing the same energy to be capsized. One is a long keeler, small draft, narrow heavy weight boat the other one is a beamy light boat with a big draft and all the ballast on a bulb at the end of a fin keel.

As I had said before the dynamic behavior of these boats when hit by a breaking wave will be very different in what regards the capacity to dissipate the wave energy moving sideways, but let's consider that the full keeler would not trip in its keel, that the extra surface would not have a damping effect on the rotational movement and that the low mass and small under water surface would not permit the lighter boat to move much more easily sideways.

Let's consider that the same amount of energy of the wave that hits the boats results in a rotational movement for both boats.Both boats require the same energy to be capsized so in what regards the results (capsizing or not) the effect would be the same but the kind of movement due to inertia would be very different.

The heavier boat would start to roll much more slowly but because it has much more inertia once started the rolling movement it would be much harder to stop it. On the lighter boat the roll movement will be faster but will be also stopped faster because the inertia is much smaller. Both boats will roll to the same point but the duration of the roll movement (to capsize at 90º and back to its feet) will be much longer on the heavier boat.

We could say that the slower movement is a more comfortable one but the fact is that in what regards seaworthiness the heavier boat will be much more time deeply heeled, exposing its side much longer to another breaking wave that will catch him with little stability left and therefore will have potentiated effects, resulting probably in a capsize.

That's why I think roll moment of inertia is not a determinant factor in Dynamic stability and that its effect in Dynamic stability effectiveness is many times hugely overrated.

....


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## PCP

I have said that probably we would get some very good images on the Volvp Ocean race when they would get to that zone with 40K winds and more than 20ft wave.

Here they are, with the boats going at the limit trying to beat the 24 hours speed record. Speed does not bring comfort to those guys, but what a thrill I bet they are loving it






Camper took the lead to Groupama but it seems they were pushing the boat too much. They sustained damages with 50K winds and have slowed down for repairs. Groupama is leading again.

Great sailing, great racing. On this conditions they cannot push boats to where they can go, they have to push them only to the limit before breakage and that is a very difficult thing to do, I mean find that limit , staying close to it without never going over it.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012

...


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## Chimbatete

Ive been taking a closer look at some daysailers lately for Lake Ontario. I find some of the NA daysailers to be pretty traditional in design (e33, Alerions) and expensive realtively compared to the ones in Europe like the Tarac 33,Dinamica, Sensei etc. 
Anyway I came across this boat lol 

































BTW Paulo, my stepdad said I could visit him this fall and hed take me to the Genova boat show so Ive been eyeing the Comet 26, something I can afford.


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## PCP

Hi Chimbatete

That was the Kaidoz, back in 2008/2009 it raised a lot of interest but in the end not many boats were sold and the boat is not made anymore. It was an innovative concept, but I never did like it very much. However it was a good sailing boat.

Here you can see an interesting video about it (the second one is better).

Bateau de l

....

Nice to know you are going to Genova even if Genova is mostly a motor boat show with some Italian sailing boats. The Comet 26 is a nice boat but they don't have an American dealer. You are going to ship the boat to the US?






Why not a First 25.7? That one you can buy there.

First 25.7 S / First / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU
















And perhaps you can even get a First 27.7 for the price of the Comet?
















Have fun. While you don't have a boat at least you can dreaming about it

I think they are replacing the 27.7 (not on Benetau site anymore). The 27.7 is a great boat, perhaps you can have an huge discount in some boat they still have in stock.

Regards

Paulo


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## Chimbatete

Funny I was just looking at older first series from Beneteau. Most of the 30Es are in Europe and there's a few here same boat but it's First 32. I think they are perfect for the lakes for round the cans and cruising. Those Euro boats though are something else its sad that they don't have dealers. I will look at the first 27 thanks. Speaking of the new first 30, how come I couldn't find much about its performance. It seems like the buzz has died down quite a bit.

Dont know if this is a new boat but its a beauty. Dehler 35SQ

I was looking at the Transquadra and noticed a few Dehlers placing well. That was a surprise because I didnt expect to see it along with Pogos, JPKs, Archambaults and SF3200 since I thought it would be more like a Salona, Finflyer type with nicer interiors.


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## PCP

Yes the Dehler 35 is a great boat and it is only new because it has now a two whell setup, the rest is just the same. And yes, the Dehler belongs to the same kind of boats you have mentioned (Salona, FinnFlyer) and it is a fast boat specially upwind.

By the way, talking about Salona I had a look at the Salona 38 test sail by my favorite Magazine, the German "Yacht". You can buy the test on line but since you can get it for free on the Salona site I hope they don't mind If I post one image of that test:










Great, isn't? The title on the photo: *Strong performance:
Do you want and Yacht just to sail fast or to race? The Salona 38 can do both.*

They say very well about the boat, its looks, its functionality and its building quality.

About the performance and the measured speeds take a look:










Well, I did not manage to own this one, but still think it is a great performance cruiser, and satisfies me that the magazine that I consider to make more objective test sails think about the same.

Regards

Paulo


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## Chimbatete

Yes Paulo, I was looking at some used Salona 34 and they are still pricey ($140k avg.) and all in Europe. They are an awesome boat with a nice interior and fast on all points as you posted. Ive noticed that when they (euro boats)do have a dealer here in Canada like the Archambault, the price is abit more. Do they factor in the shipping to the price? Ive been going crazy and going to all the boatshows but its a bit limited here.

Remember the Euro boat of the year 2011 nominees you posted? Remember the special category, one of the nominees is Tarac 33, well I looked into it and wow what a goodlooking daysailer with some room down to boot. Thats like a dream boat for me.


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## SloopJonB

That Comet reminds me a lot of the old Morgan 27 MORC boat from the early 70's.


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## PCP

Yes Chimbatete, the Tarac is a beautiful boat and that video is a nice one, thanks for posting.

Regarding the Salona 34 you are exagerating on the price:

http://www.salonayachts.com/en/brokerage/salona-boats/s34-1.html

But if you or your family is interested in one of those to take to Canada I guess you can have a new 35 almost for that price, I mean with a huge discount.

....

JonB, I did not know the Morgan 27 but it seems a very modern boat for its time and I can understand what you mean: They probably represented the same approach separated by 35 years, but the hull and the underwater appendices have little in common. Take a look:














































Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> Yes Chimbatete, the Tarac is a beautiful boat and that video is a nice one, thanks for posting.
> 
> Regarding the Salona 34 you are exagerating on the price:
> 
> Salona 34 - Salona Yachts
> 
> But if you or your family is interested in one of those to take to Canada I guess you can have a new 35 almost for that price, I mean with a huge discount.
> 
> ....
> 
> JonB, I did not know the Morgan 27 but it seems a very modern boat for its time and I can understand what you mean: They probably represented the same approach separated by 35 years, but the hull and the underwater appendices have little in common. Take a look:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards Paulo


Yes, I figured the Comet would be a lot lighter and have much more radical fins - actually I was surprised the Comets keel shape was as similar as it was to the Morgan - I would have expected a deeper, more vertical, bulbed keel, not a swept fin. I was just surprised that such a contemporary boat could be so reminiscent of a 40 year old boat. I think their target market is (was) probably much the same as well - generally younger and after performance far more than comfort.

Thanks for the pics - I like it a lot.


----------



## G1000




----------



## PCP

SloopJonB said:


> ... - I would have expected a deeper, more vertical, bulbed keel, not a swept fin. I was just surprised that such a contemporary boat could be so reminiscent of a 40 year old boat. I think their target market is (was) probably much the same as well - generally younger and after performance far more than comfort.
> ....


That is the swing keel:










The boat can also come with a foil with a fixed torpedo keel, the kind you would expect on this boat

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

G1000 said:


>


Great images. Those are really big breaking waves

Outstanding the speed that this boats can return to its feet after being capsized, even with a lot of sail out That was a double hit, if the boat had a lot of inertia (a lot of weight for the same RM) and was still capsized when it was hit by the second wave, the story could be other. We can also see clearly the boat going sideways and rotating dissipating with movement the wave energy (look at the clouds) otherwise than with a rolling movement.

Other impressive image. Great racing:






Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

Groupama is holding on in the lead making no mistakes. At almost the same speed and second now is Puma, at about 50NM. More big wave and high winds on the next 6 hours.

Camper is out of the race: It is going to Chile to repair the bow damage. Lots of damages in the bows. It seems the designers have to review the calculations on that point of the boat. The guys from Grupama said that the damage on their bow happened when they were falling from 8m waves...not once, but many times

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Great sailing video:






Here is Sailing Spoken Here from Sailing Spoken Here on Vimeo.


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## PCP

And another big race that is almost there is the "Spi Ouest". It is a classical on the French coast and this years's is the 34th edition. All kinds of boats racing there and hundreds of them, professionals and amateurs all having fun together:

Have a look at one of the past editions:


----------



## PCP

And from the Virgin Islands, great images of the International Rolex regatta:


----------



## PCP

As it was expected more great images of the VOR:






Groupama is holding on going at a mad speed and turning South as much as they can looking for big winds trying without success to go away from Puma. Both boats have leaved Telefonica behind and maintain the 50NN distance between them.

Just click on the weather button and look what kind of wind they are after

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

If they can make it they will leave Telefonica behind but they can break on that conditions. Telefonica is betting on that and is going more to the North with less tempestuous conditions but with less speed.

Crazy race this one betweem Groupama and Puma


----------



## Faster

Paulo

We were out this weekend and saw for the first time a new First 45 in the flesh. Most impressive looking ride. I think this was a lower tech version, aluminum mast, wire rigging, but appeared to have the joystick system. Great looking boat, though.. I think the proportions really come into sync at this length.

Only thing was the cockpit layout was such that the driver is pretty well out of the trim picture.. but I suppose this boat is meant to be properly crewed up.


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> Paulo
> 
> We were out this weekend and saw for the first time a new First 45 in the flesh. Most impressive looking ride. I think this was a lower tech version, aluminum mast, wire rigging, but appeared to have the joystick system. Great looking boat, though.. I think the proportions really come into sync at this length.
> 
> Only thing was the cockpit layout was such that the driver is pretty well out of the trim picture.. but I suppose this boat is meant to be properly crewed up.


Yes, I agree with you, the First 45 is beautiful and contrary to the 40 it has the potential to be a great cruising boat. I also like the interior. Many would say it is too modern, but it is not certainly IKEA style and I find it classy. I think modernity goes well with the rest of the boat

Beneteau-first-45

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Interesting news about one of the most interesting fast 30 ft performance cruiser, The South African Pacer 310: It is going to be made also in Spain and its price is going down probably.

A sweet boat with a very good B/D ratio, a powerful and very fast, a nice one with an interior that without being very cozy has everything needed for cruising...when not racing


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## Faster

PCP said:


> Yes, I agree with you, the First 45 is beautiful and contrary to the 40 it has the potential to be a great cruising boat. I also like the interior. Many would say it is too modern, but it is not certainly IKEA style and I find it classy. I think modernity goes well with the rest of the boat
> 
> Beneteau-first-45
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Thanks for that link/view... we didn't get a look below, but saw plenty to drool over on deck!


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## PCP

Uau!!!!! don't miss this one, From NZ, some days ago on the BMW Auckland regatta:


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## PCP

Incredible!!!!! The 2012 Atlantic Rally Crossing (ARC) that will start only in 8 months is already full. They have opened an waiting list and hopefully they will increase the number of participants.

The accepted inscriptions are 260:

23 catamarans and 42 boats in the racing divisions. The smallest boat to date is Wolfgang Vandrey's Contest 28 Quetzal (GER) ...

ARC 2012 boats are sailing under *33 different national flags* - a real united nations of sail! ..

30% of the fleet are flying the British ensign and 12% are German. Its great to see big fleets from Norway, Italy, USA, Australia, Netherlands, Sweden and France. ..

There is always an award for the oldest boat sailing in the ARC, and it looks like a tie-breaker for 2012. Both Peter von Seestermuhe (GER), owned by long-term ARC-supporter Christoph von Reibnitz and Peter Brownsell's Peregrin (GBR) were built in 1936. ..

If you want to join the wait list, you will need to pay the boat entry fee in full. We can't guarantee you a place, but will give a full refund if we can't get you into ARC2012.

News articles from World Cruising Club: ARC

Event Information for World Cruising Club: ARC





Last year's Rally:


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## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> Uau!!!!! don't miss this one, From NZ, some days ago on the BMW Auckland regatta:


The footage of the Vodaphone trimaran flying *TWO* hulls was spectacular - talk about sailing on the edge of disaster!


----------



## Capt Len

Never realized it was so easy to reef one of those . Just fold in the middle.


----------



## PCP

Telefonica is out of the race too. It has to do a pit stop in Ushuaia to repair bow damage:

*Telefónica announced several days ago that they were slowing down to prevent further damage and skipper Iker Martínez confirmed on Tuesday that delamination to the bow, sustained when a huge wave crashed down on them last week, would make a stop necessary before the finish line in Itajaí in Brazil.

"As you can see, we've got no problems in terms of continuing to sail, but if we continue to violently crash against the waves like this the damage could worsen and we want to rule out the possibility of that happening," said Martínez, who is determined to go on and complete the leg.

"What we've done so far is to fix some battens to the deck at the bow to reinforce the section where the delamination has occurred, which is therefore weaker. The issue we've got is that nothing dries and so we've had to repeat the exercise a few times.*

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Telefónica to make pit stop in Ushuaia

Groupama and Puma, the only survivors, are still going South, flat out in a mad race against each other. Will their boats hold out?

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

As I have said before YachtingWorld Magazine is posting some videos explaining advanced sailing techniques. I find the movies very clear. I have already posted the first one but I will post it again with the other two, to be all together.

enjoy:

*Chinese gybe:*

http://bcove.me/gve5lcp8

*Broaching:*

http://bcove.me/okcuvsw5

*Gybing:*

http://bcove.me/a3nnxjn5

....


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## PCP

Probably the small cruising cat I like more is the Edel. Funny that I never talked about them here. They are presenting new models, the 33 and the 42 but I think it is really an update of the previous models (the 42 was know as Helios 42).

These are not pregnant or fat cats but fast cats with small windage and a very good cruising interior.

I love then so much that if the Med marinas were not so expensive and I wanted only a boat for coastal cruising with some offshore medium passages I would have seriously considered the Edel 33.

I am not saying that the 33ft is not Ocean going capable and I am sure many have crossed the pond but everybody has their concept and limits regarding what they consider their threshold in what regards bluewater sailing and I would accept that with a 38ft cat and be really confortable with the 42.

But the one that has a price similar to a 40ft boat is the 33ft, not the 42 and it is always like that with cats: they are a lot more expensive than similar sized monos and even if they have more space for size, the same cannot be said in what regards seaworthiness, or at least, it is my opinion.

Back to the 33ft:




























*Don't miss the 33 slide show here. The boat has a really nice interior:
*

slideshow E33
















And regarding the 42 what can we say except that it is a beautiful boat. The first foto was taken by me in a Galiza marina, some years ago, because the boat looked just right, a perfect cruiser.

This is the old model, the Helios 42:



















Take a look at this interesting test sail where several 42 cats are compared with an Oceanis 50. What is the only one that can do better than the Oceanis upwind? The Helios 42, off course

http://www.edelcatamarans.com/gamme/gammeH42/essaibateauxavril2010.pdf

*This is the new Helios 42 cruiser, a remake of Helios:*
slideshow h42 essential

They say that the boat is made not to be expensive, back to the essentials they say.

But the real new one the one that makes me say *UAU!!!* is this one, the new Electric version of the 42. I guess they have preferred to maintain the more traditional old 42 for the more conservative ones and for the ones that like really modern things, they propose the new 42, electrical and all










*Take a good look:*

http://www.edelcatamarans.com/gamme/gammeE42/plaquette_de_presentation.pdf

slideshow E42

....


----------



## PCP

Nice images of Hanse 415 sailing, from the Yacht magazine boat test (on the last edition).

Hanse 415 mischt die Szene auf - Yacht TV

...


----------



## PCP

Wind is the power of our boats...and here serves an art form. Amazing the way wind moves. I would have expected a much less kinetic effect. Nice 






Windswept from Charles Sowers on Vimeo.


----------



## mikel1

Very cool! And very instructional/illustrative . . .I like it!


----------



## Faster

Think I'm going to have the artist put some telltales on our sails!


----------



## PCP

Some new photos of the Bavaria Vision 46 posted by Yacht Magazine. They have already tested the boat and the test will come out on one of the next editions. I want to see if they say that the boat sails as well as it looks and it looks remarkably good for a boat with such a big interior volume. Great work by Bruce Farr.


----------



## PCP

And one for the girls:






RAFIKI 2011 from Kate Hayes on Vimeo.


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> And one for the girls:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAFIKI 2011 from Kate Hayes on Vimeo.


Gawd I feel old.


----------



## PCP

One of the boats that had impressed me more at the Paris boat show was the A27. The boat looked just gorgeous and that inverted hull curve near the transom was just the cherry on the top.

We can find that inversion on some modern racers like the Soto or some Elliots and the idea is just to give more hull stability at a radical sailing angle.

If looking at the boat statically can give some doubts about its effectiveness, looking at the boat heeled on the water we can see that is going to work.

The German "Yacht" magazine posted some photos and that means they have tested the boat already. I bet they found it a great sailing boat...it looks like one and the interior is really cozy for a fast 27ft. The sail test should come out soon.

Even a bigger surprise than that inverted hull is that they are going to make the boat in 3 versions: Foil with a torpedo, TWIN KEEL, and swing keel, this one with a two rudders setup to ground the boat.

If they are making a two rudder setup to one version I bet the boat can be delivered with the two rudder setup in any version.

I found this one particularly beautiful. What a daysailer and week-end cruiser. A bit early to say what a racer, but I will bet on that.


----------



## PCP

Vilm goes modern, but not much: The German brand new models, the 115 and the 37 have not skeg rudders anymore and have a ballasted fin keel. Both boats share the same hull.

The boats look conservative but modern thanks to the Drawings of judel and vrolijk. Vilm are known to be well built and strong and I believe this two new models will open the Brand to a more vast number of sailors, provided they have the money for it because the Vilm are not cheap


----------



## SloopJonB

Is it just me or is the pilothouse version the better looking of the two?


----------



## mitiempo

The one without the pilothouse would look better - a lot less plain - with a dodger I think. It is the one I prefer.


----------



## G1000

For those who have missed. Enjoy!


----------



## Chimbatete

Heres the video of the A27. One gripe I have is that they shouldnt call a 27 footer a budget entry with a price north of $100k.


----------



## PCP

SloopJonB said:


> Is it just me or is the pilothouse version the better looking of the two?


Like Mitempo I like more the classical version. However I do agree that the 37 pilot house looks particularly well.

I would not attempt to design a pilot house with less than 40ft. I tried to design once one with 40ft but I found out that I needed 43ft to be completely satisfied with the boat looks. The fact that one looks not bad with 37ft gives credit to the designers. A dam good job

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

G1000 and Chimbatete. Nice posts

Chimbatete, the best is always expensive I believe the A27 is going to be a winner and to have a winning machine you have to pay. That is true with racing boats, racing cars or racing motorcycles. 

If you compare it with a boat with similar specs you are going to see this one is not more expensive and this one has really a nice cruising interior.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Another new interesting sailboat, 4 feet smaller, the J70:

J/70 Demo Sail | Sailing World


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## SloopJonB

Chimbatete said:


> Heres the video of the A27. One gripe I have is that they shouldnt call a 27 footer a budget entry with a price north of $100k.


The sad thing is, these days that IS a budget entry. Luckily, with the 10's of thousands of GOB's out there, one can get into a decent big boat for less than the sales taxes on that 27'.


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## Chimbatete

Doesnt have to be that old Jonb I see 5 year old J100s less than the A27.
And as much as I love some of these boats but thats big dough for a daysailer carbon mast and all.

I think its Paulo who mentioned that some people prefer to spend more than an overnight on a boat then heck id get another modern boat like a Dehler 32 or Elan 31 for what? Another 20K? It caters to the same sailing program.


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Doesnt have to be that old Jonb I see 5 year old J100s less than the A27.
> And as much as I love some of these boats but thats big dough for a daysailer carbon mast and all.
> 
> I think its Paulo who mentioned that some people prefer to spend more than an overnight on a boat then heck id get another modern boat like a Dehler 32 or Elan 31 for what? Another 20K? It caters to the same sailing program.


I guess the guys that will buy new Archambault or new Jboats are guys that want to win races. A 5 year old boat will not be as competitive as a new boat (another model). Winning is a nice and valuable thing.

In what concerns devaluation these kind of boat have a big one when there is a new model that is faster. The older model can then be a very good option for the ones that like occasionally to race and want to cruise in a really fast boat.

One of the more interesting boats regarding this perspective is the "old" A40 that has a huge difference in price over the new A40RC even in boats separated by one or two years. The old A40 is even better for solo sailing and the difference in speed is marginal.

Look at this difference in prices:

Archambault A40 Boats For Sale

Look at this one:

2004 Archambault A40 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk

You can have some great boats for not much more money. If the idea is cruising and occasionally racing I would buy this one over the 27 (I have seen even better prices), but off course you would not win major races on this one, only club ones.
















































But If you do sail as a sport and are good at it then the A27 will make sense and it can even be covered by a Sponsor. To have a good sponsor you have to win and to win you need a winning boat. I can also understand a guy with money that buys the A27 because it is beautiful and one of the fastest boats around and he just loves it. After all we only live once

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Fantastic race on the VOR between Groupama and Puma. For almost a week the two boats maintained a 50NM distance sailing at about the same speed, flat out, leaving all boats behind.

Puma has finally managed to reduce that distance to only 10NM. Hot.

In meantime on Puma they have took time to shoot these wonderful photos of the Horn:



















Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | PUMA on the attack as Telefónica's repairs get underway

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


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## Chimbatete

Paulo 

Two questions on those A40 boats for sale. (understand that Im relatively new to sailing) First of all they are beautiful boats and would fit the need of 99% of those who race around the cans and regattas. Inside they are beautiful too. 

Do you think that these boats are at a good discount because they are not as fast as the new boats like you say or is it because theyve been raced hard?

Second, wouldnt a fast boat like the A27 be racing under ratings? I have read that some boats are too penalized for racing that they would require high levels of sailing to win.


----------



## PCP

Chimbatete said:


> Paulo
> 
> Two questions on those A40 boats for sale. (understand that Im relatively new to sailing) First of all they are beautiful boats and would fit the need of 99% of those who race around the cans and regattas. Inside they are beautiful too.
> 
> Do you think that these boats are at a good discount because they are not as fast as the new boats like you say or is it because theyve been raced hard?
> 
> Second, wouldnt a fast boat like the A27 be racing under ratings? I have read that some boats are too penalized for racing that they would require high levels of sailing to win.


If you really want to win on handicap on club racing probably you should look for some easy old boat with a low rating, I don't know. Personally I would not give a dam about that and would be interested in finishing first in real time among boats of that size and in middle of much bigger boats and it seems that start's to be a tendency.

Besides this boat will teach you how to sail, I mean in a boat like this all trims count and this boat has an huge trimming possibility.

Regarding the boat to be worm out after racing I guess each case is a case but I can give you a generic opinion about what I have saw in the search of my cruising boat even if I never saw an used A40. Never saw one because that boat in what regards the interior is more naked than what I wanted. Like the Pogo it only has a door on the head and the galley is small for living aboard for a long time, I mean, at least with my wife that likes to cook (and I don't mind about that). That would be the kind of boat that I would have if I lived alone and sailed solo or with some friends.

Regarding boats used almost exclusively for racing I saw one J 133 from 2004, two Dufour 40 performance from 2007 and an 2007 Comet 41s Racing. These were boats with only one owner and used for serious racing and no cruising.

All shared some characteristics, the rigging and the running rigging, the winches all was very good and on top conditions, in some cases with many upgrades from a regular boat, like 3 speed manual winches and other stuff.

Almost all boats had the standard set of sails as new and some had an huge sail inventory with very expensive sails in very good condition.

The interior even if clearly not used for cruising (on more than one boat the stove had never been used) showed signs of racing use, I mean steps wear, little marks a bit everywhere, nothing big but things that my wife would not have accepted.

I guess we can divide this type of boats in two categories in what regards use: The ones that were seriously raced by a top team and the ones that are older and have already known several owners.

The first ones will be probably in tip top conditions: You don't imagine the money these guys give for winning big time. Nothing is spared to make the boat faster so everything should and is normally perfect. To give you an Idea of the money these guys spend, some years ago when I saw that J133, I tried to lower the price and the dealer said that he was sure the owner would not accept because the sail inventory had a value almost as big as the boat itself

The second ones were like that once before being bought by budget sailors that wanted a boat for club racing and the chances is that when they sell them they will not be in perfect conditions and will need some money spent in sails, and in rigging.

I believe the first ones are the ones that is worth to look for. The money you are paying for them is probably 1/3 of the money the boat and sails had costed them five or seven years ago and you can bet the sails only are one or two years old and that the running rigging was already replaced and is probably 3 years old, or less.

If you don't have a wife pointing to all that small interior imperfections, it is the best deal you can have for a fast cruising boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

So let's look at another type of boat one that will never grow old because it looks already old, old but beautiful in a classical way.

Among them I believe we did not talk yet about the Rustler 33 a fast and classical boat (with a modern rudder and keel) that would make proud any owner. A great way to daysail or weekend cruise a boat that would give a lot of pleasure to own and sail, a beautiful object by itself, one to keep.











http://www.rustleryachts.com/resources/Rustler 33 Brochure.pdf

...


----------



## PCP

On the VOR, for the first time Puma has the lead over Groupama.

They have weak wind now but that is going to finish and they will get a depression that will lead them almost to the finish line and then another one will come and they will finish power sailing style.

No tactical big play till the finish line, only good sailing and the best to win. I guess these two deserved already to win. It is going to be exciting till the end!!!

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center






On Groupama the 1st of April lye: They say that they are taking a rest and that from now one only a guy will be on deck while the others are below sleeping after all they are almost all solo sailors


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> So let's look at another type of boat one that will never grow old because it looks already old, old but beautiful in a classical way.
> 
> Among them I believe we did not talk yet about the Rustler 33 a fast and classical boat (with a modern rudder and keel) that would make proud any owner. A great way to daysail or weekend cruise a boat that would give a lot of pleasure to own and sail, a beautiful object by itself, one to keep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rustleryachts.com/resources/Rustler 33 Brochure.pdf...


Oooooohhhhhh! Gorgeous. I could definitely see that as a "last" boat. Funny thing though, to me, boats without pulpits and lifelines have an unfinished look about them.


----------



## PCP

And just for fun, two more movies on the incredible cathegory. Maybe you have saw them, maybe not


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> And just for fun, two more movies on the incredible cathegory. Maybe you have saw them, maybe not


They deserved it - totally their own fault. You'd have to be a fool to get anywhere NEAR that situation, Cowes or not.

Maybe it has something to do with the colour of their spinnaker, like the submarining in my old avatar..


----------



## PCP

Vor70: I was wrong, Groupama and Puma could not keep up with the depressions speed and have a wind hole ahead. Big tactical decisions have to be made. They can go near the coast or they can go East. It will be interesting to see if they are going together trying to decide the race om speed or if they will diverge on the tactical decisions. The boats are sailing almost together.

Meanwhile Telefonica that had stopped for repairs on the East coast of Chile has made an incredible come back to the race going for 24 hours at double speed regarding leading boats. They are much nearer the coast and in a much better position regarding wind and forecast. They are going to continue to win big time on the leading boats. A masters stroke. Well played for the Spanish.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

This leg is so much more interesting than the others HOT is the word.


----------



## PCP

Offshore solo racing was for many years completely dominated by French. 
For some years now, some racers from other countries are racing with them but the they are still the masters.

However from some years that leadership starts to be contested, first on the minis among others by the Portuguese Lobato and now on the 40class: It seems that on "La Solidaire du Chocolat", a duo transat the victory is not going to escape to Jorg Riechers and the Germans are jumping with happiness. I guess this is going to boost Riechers sailing carrier. He was one of the sailors that defied the french domination on the minis, now on the 40 class and who will know, maybe soon on the Open 60.

Well to be true, the skipper is German but his mate, Lepesqueux is French

La Solidaire Du Chocolat

These are the guys that are in 4th place in a group of 3 that are fighting for the 2th place.






Solo racing need to raise the enthusiasm it raises in France all over the world. This solo or short crew races are the best vehicle to develop sailing boats and sailing technology to be applied in cruising boats, boats that are also sailed solo or with reduced crew. It is also the kind of sail that needs the smaller budget in what regards professional sailors.


----------



## PCP

Some interesting movies of Pogos sailing with bad weather:

This one is a 10.50 om the North Sea on an Atlantic crossing:






And this one is a 12.50 in a "Fare Vela" test sail:






And this 12.50 in Greece in not particularly bad weather but going fast


----------



## PCP

And proving that it is possible to like sailing in two very different type of boats here you have Pete Goss having fun in different ways: On traditional heavy boat.


----------



## PCP

Great sail racing near home in Cascais.

These guys are really unlucky: It did not rain for 3 months and when they come for the race they get pouring rain

At least they got a nice wind&#8230;.Great images:


----------



## PCP

Incredible racing by Telefonica: While Puma and Groupama opted for a folowing the same route and decide things by sailing instead of strategy the Spanish are coming back fast.

They are at only 180Nm from the leading boats (after stopping for almost a day for repairs) and tomorrow they will be 30 or 40nm closer!!!!

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

Another incredible video and one of my favorites all categories. The sailors on that big boat are only too, but two great sailors Alain Gautier and Michel Desjoyeaux.

Looking at the movie it looks like they are mad and that only luck prevents them to capsize. It is not obviously the case, these guys are masters.






Gautier is a multihull specialist and a vey good one but my admiration goes to Desjoyeaux the guy to whom the other professional solo sailors call "Le professeur" (the teacher).

He is among the best on Multihulls and among the best on Monohulls and among the best does not mean among the 10 best but among the 3 best om each open category. This guy is the only one that has won two times the Vendee Globe and has the record time of the race.

He is not going to race the next one. This time he is racing in big monohulls, Mod70, to be precise. I would say that there is only one sailor has big and polyvalent as this guy. It it is Franck Cammas, the French skipper of Groupama.

Take a look at his new boat (Foncia Mod 70):


----------



## PCP

This time I was right about the VOR: Telefonica is winning miles big time over Groupama and Puma. The Spanish are making an incredible come back and won more 70nm on the last 24h and I believe they will be winning more still for some hours. They are now at only 90Nm of the leading boats.

Groupama that now is leading again and Puma are so completely focused on the battle between them (the boats are in plain view of each other) not taking any chance with bold strategig moves that have permitted the come back of the Spanish in the race.

They have ahead lots of upwind sailing and strategic options have to be taken. Will the French and the Australia/American boats continue to shadow each other while the Spanish eat them miles?

What a race

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


>


Does anyone here know how close to disaster those monster tris are when they are flying TWO hulls?

It looks like the most incredible knife edge, particularly when you consider the "penalty for failure".


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> Another incredible video and one of my favorites all categories. The sailors on that big boat are only too, but two great sailors Alain Gautier and Michel Desjoyeaux.
> 
> Looking at the movie it looks like they are mad and that only luck prevents them to capsize. It is not obviously the case, these guys are masters.


This is really so incredible!
This softness, this smooth movement of that boat, at that speed, with those waves - WOW!
An unforgetable video!


----------



## PCP

Well, if I was at the wheel you could bet that would be risky. With two guys, one at the wheel and other at the sails it is not dangerous providing they are masters on the sailing art a bit like a rally champion can drive its rally car sliding from one side of the road to the other making in the process some curves.

These big boats have some inertia and the trimarans are a lot more forgiving than the cats and that's why all these big offshore multihulls are trimarans. They don't lose as much RM when they lift the hulls as the cats.

I think 60ft is a kind of limit in what regards a superior seaworthiness in what regards racing trimarans. The ones with 50ft, the Multi 50 are a lot more tricky to sail and the difference in offshore performance with bad weather is really big. Take a look at a Multi50:











Bigger Multihulls (over 60) Banque Populaire that has recently beaten the circumnavigation record are even more seaworthy. On the last "Route du Rum" Franc Cammas had done the unthinkable and sailed one of those monsters SOLO to the victory.

I have to say that I was not the only one that was baffled with that. The boat had just finished to beat the world record circumnavigation (with Cammas as skipper) and some of the crew doubted that even Cammas could not tame the monster alone.

Well I believe he tried to avoid to fly the two hulls at the same time, but he surely sailed the boat in one piece across the Atlantic leaving everybody really far behind, even the smaller 60 and 70ft trimarans. Groupama trimaran has 103ft


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## PCP

From speed saling to $$$$ sailing

Now, on St. Barth:


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## PCP

Nice static comparison between the Old Oceanis (Beneteau) 40 and the new 41 by Solo Vela:

http://www.solovela.net/immagini/SVNpdf/Oceanis41.pdf

It is in Italian but even if you cannot read it the images say it all. The new boat is cleared influenced by Open boat hull design, it is 24cm wider, all the beam is brought back and the mast is 50cm aft comparing with the 40.

The keel is less wide and it has a saildrive, a bigger rudder, a bit less rocker and a much bigger LWL. All in all is a much more modern boat on the lines of the Oceanis 37, also designed by Finot/Conq, that is one of the most popular on their line. Time will tell if sailors will raise this one to the same level of success.


----------



## Melrna

This has been a brutal race leg for 4/5 boats. Remember it is not over until the fat lady sings. More sailing to go just on this leg alone. Been a great race so far. Cannot wait until they get here to Miami. Like in NYC I will be there to meet them all and see them off. 
Still rooting for Puma, but my heart is out to Groupama and hope for a speed recovery.


----------



## myocean

PCP said:


> Outremer Catamaran - Our Catamarans - Outremer 5X
> 
> Yes I know, it is a great boat as I have said. There are more great cats of that size (...)


Outremer now anounced very interesting news for the Lorient Multihull Boat Show:
"This event will be also the opotunity to see as world premiere, the very first pictures of the new Outremer 45!"


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## PCP

Had a look at the new Pogo 50: It is almost finished and looks terrific



















The project:


----------



## PCP

And since some think that a boat like the cruising Pogo is inadequate for any family to travel extensively, nothing like this movie to show that even a more radical class 40 racer can be adequate for some families to travel. They seem quite happy to me and the children seem to be loving it. They are circumnavigating.


----------



## PCP

Very nice images from the Phuket King's Cup Regatta with some interesting news: the Japanese won the 40ft boat race and that are good news. Japan has been out of the sailing scene and its growing interest in sailing is good for the sailing panorama.


----------



## PCP

And as expected Riechers and Lepesqueux won the Duo Transat "La Solidaire du Chocolat". They finished with very light winds and "La fiesta" was waiting them.

Great local enthusiasm and great reception : Viva el Mexico.


----------



## Melrna

If Puma loses this leg there will be blood. Ken Reed should be fired from Captain of this team. No excuse to lose this leg. It was handed to him on a silver plater. For Telefonica the axiom of "Never give up"! is one for the history books.


----------



## PCP

*Vor*

In Three or four hours everything will be decided!!!If you like racing don't take away your eyes from the tracker. The actualizations are almost in real time (minutes).

The Spanish are now on the same course as Puma. No weather advantages now BUT THEY HAVE MANAGED TO WIN MORE *20NM* over PUMA and they are now almost on top of it (1.6K).

Both boats are at about the same speed and there are more 55NM to go.... OLÉ

what a race It will be probably a match race till the end. Puma started with a 1.6K advantage and that is huge on a Match race with 55Nm.


----------



## chall03

Nice video !!!!! I am staying up here in Oz( It is 1030PM) to follow the race.


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## PCP

Since we are talking about cruising, another nice cruising video about another nice and different place: Gibraltar, also born of a mix of cultures. This one I know very well and is a favorite place.

The boat is a nice one and one of the best fast cruisers you can find on the second hand market (not to old and at a nice price), a Dufour 40 performance.


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## chall03

Any sailing video with monkeys and LMFAO in it does it for me. I like the Dufours in general. They are still a little expensive down here though.


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## PCP

chall03 said:


> A..I like the Dufours in general. They are still a little expensive down here though.


Not any Dufout I mean particularly that one and the bigger sister the 45 from the performance line. They were a lot more expensive than the ones from the "Grand cruising line" and it was not by the interior quality that is about the same, but for the sailing part of the boat.

That boat has a great D/B ratio (a lot more than the new version) and it is not only fast but seaworthy. They were sold in large numbers and popular with cruisers and cruiser/racers. The racers are selling them since the new model come and because there are a lot for sale the price is coming down. In Europe you can buy a 2005/2007 boat for about 110 000€ and older boats (since 2003) for less.

DUFOUR 40 - Voilier DUFOUR 40 d'occasion - Page 1

This was one of the boats I was considering having if I could not find anything better


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## chall03

Damn. That is actually very good value and they seem to be a very good sail. No Dufour 40 performance boats for sale down here. 
Hmm makes the idea of cruising the Med/doing the ARC/season in the caribbean/tradewind sailing home across the pacific seem like a very good idea.


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## PCP

Seems like a good pretext for a great sailing voyage 

Meanwhile have a look at the wave that hit that clipper boat&#8230;a nasty one. The boat did a lot better than the guys on the deck. The amazing thing is that they did see it coming and they did not look to have made any move to get a better protection, like getting down and hold to the boat .

Yacht travolto dall'onda - Video - Corriere TV


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## chall03

Shame there was no live stream. It was crazy that in the end it was so close!


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## PCP

chall03 said:


> Shame there was no live stream. It was crazy that in the end it was so close!


I was pissed with the Spanish. Did not understand their last move. OK, they were offshore to get more pressure and they were doing 1K more than Puma but when the wind died on them and they start to make the same speed as Puma, why they did not tack immediately to the finish line?

Probably they would not have won anyway but any distance they sailed at that course at the same speed as Puma would make Puma win distance. They had the information om Puma speed so that's really hard to understand why they keep going on for more than half an hour

Taking about another race that is going on, a very popular French one: The Spi Ouest. you can see why it is popular. Always lot of wind and it is tradition that some French sailing legends (Solo Open boat sailors) come to measure forces with the younger generations.

They never win (and go anyway) bur they always give a very good fight and finish on the top places, just to show that they did not forget how a small boat should be sailed.


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## PCP

Two cruising sailboats that I am waiting with interest . Both are now at a finish stage and are very interesting.

The JPK 38, designed by JPK and a boat that will benefit from all "savoir faire" JPK had accumulated racing solo more the experience that he acquired building all those boats that race (and won) the Transquadra.

This one is really more a fast cruising concept, a sort of faster RM 1060, a boat that is designed with voyage in mind:





































http://www.jpk.fr/modules/kameleon/upload/fiche_JPK_38FC_HD.pdf

And the bigger Iroise 46, an aluminium boat designed by two Pierre, Delion and Rolland, a light twin keel boat that seems very interesting, a voyage boat, but this one to make it a lot more comfortably (and more expensively).



















They have a smaller version with a swing keel (12.20) that seems to be as interesting.



















VOILIERS | Facebook

Pierre Roland and Pierre Delion form one of the most interesting associations of the new generation Na. Both accomplished sailors have a very close relationship with racing and cruising personal experience.

Take a look at their sites and you will find very nice boats, some already posted here.

www.rolland-archi.com

Pierre Delion/ Architecture Navale, agence d'architectes navals pour la plaisance et les professionnels

...


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## PCP

*Spi Ouest*

Don't miss this movie. Even without music if you love sailing boats you have to love this : The M34 race.

What a boat... great sailors, perfect conditions.

<


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## PCP

*Cruising grounds: Norway*

Just beautiful: some days ago, snowing and sailing:


----------



## PCP

*Traditional Sailboats: West Indies*


----------



## PCP

*Lake sailors:*


----------



## PCP

*Modern daysailors:*

As "clean" as it could be, a beautiful boat, the Brenta 60:


----------



## Arpegecap

On the Island of Providenciales (AKA Provo) Turks and Caicos, West Indies sloops are still built and raced. Pretty things to admire as they sail in the shoal waters.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

This is the first time that a cruiser heat my blood:






OK, the Pogo 12.50 heat my blood too, but this a cruiser version of a class 40 racer.


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> This is the first time that a cruiser heat my blood:
> 
> Beneteau Sense 50 video - Yachting World - YouTube
> 
> OK, the Pogo 12.50 heat my blood too, but this a cruiser version of a class 40 racer.


Hi!, Make no mistake, the boat sails well, has a great interior but is not a performance boat. Even the Benetau Oceanis 48 will be faster.

That hull shape in this case has to do with stability, ease of sailing and sailing with low angles of heel, not with speed. Nothing to do with the Pogo 12.50 or the new 50.

Now, on that size and if I would want to dream, this would not be a bad dream&#8230;and a fast one











Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Modern performance cruisers:*

Also from Luca Brenta (the same from the last daysailer) Ghost, a 122ft cruiser. Not bad


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## PCP

*Vor*

Finally that movie that we would have liked to see live:






And meanwhile Groupama is almost claiming 3th, with a short jury rigged mast that is holding with a lot of stays

Even so they are doing 12, 15K sailing the boat very carefully and "slowly". Even faster than most cruisers we can see on the images a very "comfortable boat" and a "dry2 one. Put it back at 25K and goodbye comfort and water will be flying all around.

Don't miss that mast and rig that Cammas will proudly show to you:


----------



## PCP

*Just because it is a beautiful movie:*

and makes me want to be in a boat, almost any boat:


----------



## PCP

*Beautiful Classical boats:*


----------



## PCP

*Cruising:*

With a French sailor on an old cat:


----------



## PCP

*Classical boats:*

Pasha a William C. Frank design.


----------



## PCP

*New boat:*

and what a boat, one of the most interesting performance cruisers of the last years, born and built on the other side of the world in NZ where they are not many but are very good at least in what regards sailing and sailing boats.

The boat is a 55ft designed by Botin Carkeek Yacht Design, the Project was managed by Steve Marten, formerly of Marten Yachts and built by Llyoid Stevenson.

Some months ago I had read a test sail by a NZ sail magazine and they said wonders about the boat and now it was the time of the conservative Yachting world to be impressed too.

The boat can make downwind with over 25K wind 19K. With 25K wind at 135º makes 16.5K. With the same angle and only with 10K wind makes 9.3K. 
With 10K close to the wind makes 8.2K and with 25K wind at only 34º makes 9.1K.

This is a boat has a good cruising interior and a good tankage: 440L of fuel and 360L of water and that means a considerable load capacity for this type of boat.

Another very interesting characteristic is an hydraulic lifting keel: Down the boat has a 3.9m Draft, up a reasonable 2.3m. The boat weights 12.6T and had a ballast of 3.5T all in a torpedo.



























































































They say about the boat:

*The hull and deck shells, along with all internal structural members, are in carbon fibre and foam cores infused with epoxy resins. Strict quality controls have been utilized to ensure all components are built to specified weight targets.

Powered by a 75hp Yanmar marine diesel engine through a sail drive unit and Gori folding propeller, the M55 is also fitted with a hydraulic lifting keel, traveller, twin backstay rams, boom vang and jib car pullers. The M55 features all electric winches and a retractable bow thruster, a Spectra watermaker is also fitted and the boat utilizes BEP's new C-Zone electrical management system.

A custom hinged carbon fibre anchor arm folds back into the anchor locker to keep the foredeck clear and the retractable prod extends the sail plan 2 metres forward of the stem. Roller furling is utilized for the cruising jib and Code Zero, with all halyards and reef lines run aft under the cabin top to keep the decks clear.

The interior cabinetry is predominantly in a semi-gloss painted finish, with solid walnut timber fiddles inlaid with carbon fibre detailing. The bench tops are Corian, while the interior soles are in solid Bamboo planking over carbon and foam panels.

The cockpit layout incorporates large comfortable seats to each side forward with a drop leaf table on centreline. Aft are twin wheels with adjustable helmsman's foot chocks either side of a large lazarette hatch. The walk through transom with sliding door also incorporates a swim step and custom dinghy davits. The cockpit sole and seat tops are laid with teak decking.

With her race boat construction, carbon rig and rigging from Hall Spars, Harken deck gear and a combination of Doyles windward sails and North Sails gennakers, this yacht promises to provide very competitive racing as well as the ultimate in cruising comfort.*

....


----------



## PCP

After all those beautiful classics, an Akilaria 40 class racer kicking ass in heavy weather sailed by only two guys.
Wind from 30 to 45K, max speed 24K.


----------



## PCP

And a J111 going also fast downwind in much less wind (about 15K) but with a full crew:


----------



## G1000

Definitely very interesting new boat Jörg Riechers und seine neue "Mare" - Yacht TV


----------



## PCP

Very interesting photo of the boat that won the last Transat for 40class racing boats, the boat that G1000 posted while I was doing this post.










Looking at this photo we can see clearly how this hull "works" and the advantages of this type of transom/hull design:

Marked by the water, at black, we can see the more usual hull sailing position that is not very different in shape to the one of a more classical boat, offering little drag.

When the boat goes to the heeling max position (like it is now) it is offered to the water a completely flat horizontal surface that provides a huge resistance to more heel, adding a lot to RM. On a classical boat at this heeling angle the surface offered is a curved one that will not offer any considerable resistance to heeling.

On bigger hell angles we are not sailing anymore, at least in a effective way, but trying to bring the boat up and on these big heeling angles form stability counts not for much. A class40 or a more classical boat will work the same way and it will count on ballast and draft (low CG) to right the boat up.

Some has a idea that a open boat has a huge form stability but a bad reserve stability or a big inverted stability. That is not true. The boat has a huge form stability a very good reserve stability and the proportion between positive stability and the inverted stability is very good by any standards.

Here the stability curve of a Pogo class40: Big AVS, big relation between the positive part of the curve (positive stability) and the negative part (inverted stability) and an overall massive static stability for a 40ft.










Compare that with the typical stability curve of an half-tonner, a popular old offshore racing boat that many consider very seaworthy:










It is also a GZ curve but in Ft while the one from the Pogo is in m. To roughly convert divide the values of the Half-tonner curve by 3.

Both boats have a not very different displacement (3.500kg to about 4000/4500g for a 40class boat).

To join to that very good Pogo static stability the boat has an even better dynamic stability related with its low mass, beam and small underwater area that makes him able to dissipate the energy of a breaking wave with kinetic movement (lateral and rotating on a vertical axis) other than a rotational movement.

These two characteristics make this light boat unusually seaworthy and capable of racing on the sea is really mean, in high latitudes.

Especially for Eric I will post the stability curve of his new boat, the cruising version of a Pogo Class40, the Pogo 12.50:










First an advertency, the Pogo Class40 curve is a GZ curve (length of arm) and this one is a RM curve. To pass from this one to the first one you have to divide each value by the light weight of the Pogo 12.50.

As you can see both curves are not very different and your boat has also a good AVS but most of all a massif righting moment at 90º of heel and a very good relation between the positive stability and the negative stability.

With this information you learn that with the keel up the boat has an AVS of about 100º and you have plenty of positive stability. This means that in settle weather and light winds you can perfectly sail the boat safely in shallow waters. In fact the positive stability of the boat with the keel up is bigger than some of the boats that have capsized on the 1979 Fastnet.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Never posted about Waarschip boats and very little about Dutch boats. The fact is that the once strong pleasure boat building industry has been decaying for decades and many brands have disappeared or are close to disappear and nothing very interesting happens there, except in what regards very expensive boats.

Waarschip is one of those brands that are making boats for decades, slightly old fashioned, nothing new...till now.

Look at this baby...no it is not a Vor 70










it is the new Waarschip 700LD !!!

and this cozy wooden old boat?










Yes, surprise it is the same boat, they use for the bottom epoxy woodcore sandwich to take care of the large forces from the heavy bulb keel. From the waterline up all construction is traditional Waarschip craftsmanship with mahogany and ply.

Take a look:




































They say about the boat:

*In the tradition of Waarschip this will be a sporty but well behaved boat. A healthy 55% ballast placed low in a bulb provides plenty of stability. The Waarschip 700 LD is far more stable than the usual sportsboat. This makes the boat ideally suitable for family and shorthanded sailing, you don't need a big an experienced race crew to handle her. Just a fun day out, or sailing a club race with 1 or 2 crew is all perfectly possible without a hassle.

Rig

The rig is 7/8th configuration with an efficient fathead mainsail and no backstay. Both a conventional spinnaker as an asymmetric can be flown from an optional sprit/pole. The rudder is placed under the boat for maximum efficiency, control and feel. The keel is fitted in a trunk and can be removed for easy transport or winter storage.

Interior

Four large bunks with sitting headroom provide accommodation for shelter during a shower or for the occasional sleepover. A chemical toilet can be installed and space is reserved for optional inboard propulsion.
*

The boat is light with only 1150kg

Some other dimensions: LOA	7.00	BOA	2.50	SA up 32.4 m2 Draft	1.55m

..................................................................................................................................................................................

And that is not the only interesting new from Waarschip, they are also making a very interesting 10m boat, the 10.10, a narrow boat with a big B/D ratio, a boat not like the others around, but a beautiful boat and one that should go upwind like an arrow:



















For now they call these two the "racing line" but maybe the influence can get to the very conservative "cruising line" and more interesting things start to happen in Holland in what concerns the boat building industry that was once an important one.

....


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

and Groupama with its jury rig made it to the finish line in 3th. Chapeau!

The rig is really funny Groupama is now jus "pama" or at least is what fits in the short sail.










And it has a lot of stays:










Now they have time to mount a proper mast and be back on the race. They are second at 20 points from the Spanish (147 to 127).

...


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## PCP

*Spi Ouest*

After some days without weak winds the last day of the Spi Ouest had again nice conditions and the J111 race gave some great images:


----------



## PCP

*Spi Ouest*

After some days with weak winds the last day of the Spi Ouest had again nice conditions and the J111 race gave some great images:


----------



## PCP

*Spi-ouest*

Best of 2012, all categories :


----------



## PCP

*Cruising*

From Senegal to Brazil on a Jeanneau DS.


----------



## PCP

*Cruising:*

Greece and Turkey, beautiful images by a Cat sailor:


----------



## Chimbatete

One of the best places to sail in the World (I was born there) too bad not many can afford to sail there. Subic to Boracay regatta.


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## PCP

Not many boats, but great images. The TP 52 is really a very well balanced boat: it can go fast upwind and downwind. That beautiful cruising boat that I have posted some posts back (Equilibrium 55) is based on the TP 52 hull.

Take a look at these images. Pity the bad quality but even so they are fantastic: A Tp52 at full blast:






Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Virgin Islands on a 31ft:*

Cruising virgin Islands on a small boat, an Oceanis 31






Ok, it is a charted boat but I don't see any problem in going there in an Benetau Oceanis 31 with a good weather planning. Lot's of places to got shelter on the way.


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## PCP

*New boat:*

Hey Marty, look at this one




































































































The new XP 33, a relatively narrow boat with a big B/D ratio (about 40%) and a nice torpedo foil keel. This one is going to be a screamer

XP-33 Specifications

Designer: Niels Jeppesen & X-Yachts Design Team

LOA (length of hull): 9.99m 
LWL (waterline length): 8.86 m 
Width: 3.21m 
Draft / alternative: 1,90 / 2, 15 m 
Total weight: 4.4 t 
Mainsail: 34,4 m2 
Genoa (106%): 28.2 sqm 
gennaker: 90 sqm 
Engine: Yanmar, 14.5 kW / 20 HP 
Water tank: 190 l 
Fuel tank: 50 liters


----------



## PCP

*Favorite boats:*

Regarding cruising and occasionally racing and getting back to those images of those guys cruising happily on the virgin Islands on a 30ft cruising boat let me show what is my favorite boat on that size, all things considered, including price and suitably for cruising and racing:


























If the intention was more racing than cruising or if I lived alone and had the extra money I would chose the A31 over this one. The A31 is hard to beat racing and is a very good offshore boat.

And what about the First 30? Yes, it is a great boat and I really don't know if it is better on the regatta field (that depends on ratings and I really don't care) but this one is a slightly better offshore boat, specially solo or with a short crew and their interior is also slightly better for cruising, with a big oven and a good galley. Both boats have a good storage and the Elan even has a wet locker.

The stability curves of both boats should be close and are very good. This one is from the Elan 310:










Off course both these boats are not the 30fts with bigger interior on the market and I would find them adequate for a couple with 2 kids cruising, or 3 adults. More than that and a Bavaria a Jeanneau or a Oceanis would be a better solution but then goodbye to great sailing fun and to occasional racing

.....


----------



## PCP

*Record:*

and some great images of one of the longest standing sail records (5 years), belonging to Alex Thomson on the Old Hugo Boss (a bit more than 500nm in 24h with a duo crew). He also holds the solo 24h record. Hugo Boss is a Finot/Conq designed Open 60.


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## PCP

*Cruising USA*

and Bahamas. Nice movie, nice music.


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## bjung

I have to admit, the Elan 310 is a nice boat. But without a bulkhead, there would be a more open , larger interior and more ventilation. I wonder if the bulkhead is necessary for structural reasons, due to lighter build??
I would like to see the Elan 394 in person.
ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts
What is their reputation in regards buildquality?


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## PCP

bjung said:


> I have to admit, the Elan 310 is a nice boat. But without a bulkhead, there would be a more open , larger interior and more ventilation. I wonder if the bulkhead is necessary for structural reasons, due to lighter build??
> I would like to see the Elan 394 in person.
> ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts
> What is their reputation in regards buildquality?


You risk ending up liking really modern boats. You are right regarding the open space. That is a modern tendency in interior boat design and since the head is not there I bet that on the next remodeling they will opt by a double door that can be left open like the one on the Dufour 36 and other boats to make he space more open.

The reputation is about the same as the French boats. The 310 is from the performance line so all the hardware is of better quality than on the cruising line (394), like the First versus the Oceanis.

Personally I think Elan are a bit more solid than the French boats a middle step between them and Dehler. Regarding the 394 and its bigger sister I think it is a shame the design that is poor in many points: on the interior and on the outside look of the boat that seems fat and it is a shame because it is a good sailing boat with a very good stability curve (better than you would normally find on these boats). Cruising Elans have the reputation of being very seaworthy boats.

http://sail.elan-yachts.com/slike/plovila/i394/I394_Righting_Moment_Curve.pdf

http://sail.elan-yachts.com/slike/plovila/i394/I394_POLAR_DIAGRAM.pdf

I like more the previous models, specially the 424 and that is not normal. I hope that I am the only one but I really think Elan is going to pass a difficult time. They sell mostly cruising boats and the good sales performance of the performance cruising line will not be enough to compensate the poor sales on the cruising line.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*New boat:*

Some posts back I posted about Amel sailboats. I said Yachtingworld had tested the boat. Here is the video of that test:


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## PMCunha

Hi PCP

Can you share your thoughts about the 2008 Jeanneau Sun Odissey 36i as a family cruiser (in Portuguese if you like)?

Thank you. 

PMC


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## PCP

Peter Gustafsson from Blur has done a great job summarizing the recent *" 2012, 3th International Yacht Forum - The future of yacht racing"*. He posted that on his Blog that unfortunately for us is in Swedish. But the subject is so interesting and he has done such a nice work that I will translate the most relevant part and I will post it here.

I hope Peter don't mind. His team (Blur) has made a great job on the "Spi Ouest" racing their J111 with the best on that category and doing very well, finnishing near the top. Congratulations to him and his team

*3th International Yacht Forum 2012 - The future of yacht racing*

By Peter Gustafsson | Published on Blur: April 12, 2012

Presented by the moderator Dobbs Davis, sailing expert and editor of the Seahorse Magazine, 13 international specialists of high standing gave lectures: about advantages of navigation software (Nick White, NZL) and working with Grib files for tactics depending on weather (Meeno Schrader, GER), about yacht design in relation to rating rules (Jason Ker and John Corby, GBR, and Torsten Conradi, GER), current trends for offshore One Design classes, Box Rules and rating rules (Dobbs Davis, USA), the optimisation of sails for rating systems (Greg Marie, USA), risk minimisation of accidents and breakage of yachts (Stefana Beltrando, ITA), hydro and aero flow analysis and speed prognosis (Kai Graf, GER), advantages and possibilities of video production in offshore sailing (Robert Sleep, GBR), software solutions for race management (Stefan Kunstmann, GBR, Volker Andrae, GER, and Dobbs Davis), *development of a new rating rule (HPR) for high performance racing yachts (Jason Ker, Dobbs Davis, and James Dadd, GBR).*
&#8230;.

*Information from the Pros after one and a half days of work:*

The most noticeable was the growing importance of computers in all areas of the sailing sport. Nick White, developer of the powerful navigation software Expedition, impressively demonstrated the immense advantages of navigation and tactics software. If courses are evaluated, taking weather and flow data as Grib files and performance data of the yacht into account, chances of winning are significantly bigger. Weather expert Meeno Schrader later pointed out the influence of the data quality for the planning.&#8230;.

Technology and computers also became very significant in the sailmaking industry. New designs are not first tested on the boat or in the wind tunnel, but on the computer. CFD is the magic word: Computational Fluid Dynamics. Computer programs simulate the air flow on the sail and thus enable the sailmakers to calculate the driving performance of different designs without wasting expensive sail cloth. The shape and fitting accuracy of the sail can be tested on an accurate rig 3D model.

Since most boats today are designed on the computer, this data is available from the boat designers. Yacht and sail designers work more closely together anyhow, because lighter boats are faster and need different sails - to be successful, you need an optimal match of both. The sail designer from Doyle Sails conveyed extensive practical and computer experience to the audience in Hamburg. Having travelled to Hamburg from the USA the day before, Marie pointed out the importance of the in-depth dialogue between yacht and sail designers. His concept „Design Loop" includes all continuous and systematic steps to create a sail, that is fast AND fits well into the rating rule. CFD is .. used a lot for optimizing sails.

*This year again the designers and engineers at the Forum represented the creme de la creme of the racing yacht design industry - perfect for talking about yacht design trends.*

*In general, there is an international trend to boats providing more sailing fun and speed instead of boats made primarily to have the best performance under a rating rule.*

*More fun and speed means less weight, more ballast and a bigger sail area - all of that being punished by the rating rules.*

Today you can easily build a boat of 12m with a total weight of less than 4t - without making any problem in what regards seaworthiness. But the popular boats in Northern Europe weigh 6t - 8t or more. Even a brand new XP38 of X-Yachts' Performance Series, with 11.58m weighs 6.4t.

Torsten Conradi from the design office Judel/Vrolijk explained, that the weight is more dictated by the rating rules than the lack of possibilities to build lighter boats. This is the case of "Elena Nova" a racer that has a weight of 5.6t. Even though the boat is optimized for the rating, „Elena" is almost 800kg lighter than the Rodman „Beluga" - and its waterline is 1.30m longer. Conradi announced the development of further exciting racing boats: e.g. a new 37ft ORC racer „Shooting Star" by Speedwave and two impressive Mini Maxis of 72ft - one of them being built at Baltic Yacht in Finland.

*Yacht designer Jason Ker showed a diagram illustrating the weight trend for the racing yachts, useful information regarding the development of a new rating rule for high performance yachts* : 3.5t to 4t for a 12m yacht, less than 6t for a 15m yacht. The sailing performance of these boats would be remarkable and would justify the development, *by designers and measurers in the USA, of a new rating rule for powerful racing yachts, without taking into consideration cruiser-racers.*

All speakers agreed on one point: the new light yachts would be extremely demanding for the crew. Everyone must be aware, that you need a lot of practice to manage such a high performance racer to win a race on corrected time.

John Corby presented his design „Rockall" as an example, that a more conservative heavier design can be successful in yacht races, also because it is controllable in all conditions and can reach his full potential. The crew of the „Rockall" did receive the „German Offshore Award" - for its constant great performance in 2011.

For those wanting to compete against each other without a rating rule, a few new, exciting yachts can be found on the market. Especially the Farr 400 promises great fun sailing at affordable costs for purchase and transport to the races, since the 4t carbon boat fits into a 40ft container or even on a trailer. But the „old" Farr 40 - as Dobbs Davis commented - is not much slower than the new boat, at least in Upwind and Downwind races.

The technology for the construction of yachts is getting more and more complex and demanding: Air flow simulation on the computer enables the designers to predict realistic speed data for different designs. *This makes it easier to optimize yachts for specific courses - a boat winning Upwind and Downwind today looks different than a boat for long distance races*, as Kai Graf from the University of Kiel pointed out. An example: Disregarded by those, who love elegant boats, the Scow bow of David Raison's Mini-Transat yacht offers major advantages in winds of more than 15 knots as well as downwind. The Class 40 association is even thinking about changing their rules.

Quality and testing processes from the aviation industry are used in yacht building - with success, as statistically proven by Stefano Beltrando from QI.

To prevent accidents by measuring the potential weak points is a new trend in the yacht industry: The forces acting on hull and mast on Elena Nova are measured by glass fiber cables laminated into the structure. Judel/Vroijk wants to compare the actual data with the predicted data. It might even be possible to develop warning systems to prevent overload on hull and rig.

As some of you would probably noticed I have been saying some of these things in what regard new yacht trends, mainly in what regards the trend versus more fast and fun boats less oriented by design for a rating. We have also been following this argument between the performance of lighter boats, like the Pogo 12.50 or the Opium 39 regarding the performance of heavier boats like the First 40 or the Xp 38, the sailing conditions that are advantageous for each type of boat in what regards racing and cruising as well as in what regards the skills and crew needed to sail each type.

...


----------



## G1000

Paulo, thanks for really interesting article. Probably you have already seen, but I will post for everyone interested
http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/5868_The-big-debate-skippers-comment-on-Leg-5-attrition.html

Few days ago Maxi11 "reborn" as Project11 and several new renderings published. Looks like a dead cat bounce


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## PCP

No G, I did not saw that one I mean the new drawings and I thought that it was really a shame that Maxi yachts ended just when it was doing an innovative and great boat, one of those that are not designed primarily to have very good results according to a given handicap but just to sail faster and have fun while cruising or racing.

I am really happy because the project was reborn and the drawings are even nicer. who is going to make the boat? 

Regards

Paulo


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## G1000

There is no info who is taking over Maxi11, just these new images Project 11 | Facebook


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## PCP

G1000 said:


> There is no info who is taking over Maxi11, just these new images Project 11 | Facebook


Pity, not very promising

I guess you were right about the cat

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Open 7.5*

And from the Spy Ouest a very nice movie from the Open 7.5 race. This guys are good






The Open 7.5 is a kind of miniature Open60, designed by....yes you have guessed, Finot/conq. Great fun and speed by not much money.


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## smackdaddy

Paulo - I love this thread, but all the ginormous HD videos cause it to take forever to load and scroll.


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## DiasDePlaya

PCP said:


> the Scow bow of David Raison's Mini-Transat yacht offers major advantages in winds of more than 15 knots as well as downwind.


I loved this boat since the first time that I read about! I have plans to build a RG-65 radio controlled scow to test the concept.

If I win the Lottery I will ask some designer like Finot to build a scow like the Pogo 12.50 but with the scow bow.


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## PCP

PMCunha said:


> Hi PCP
> 
> Can you share your thoughts about the 2008 Jeanneau Sun Odissey 36i as a family cruiser (in Portuguese if you like)?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> PMC


Hi PMCunha and welcome to the thread.

I have an opinion about the Jeanneau 36I and it is about the same as these guys:



GrahamCownie said:


> ..
> 
> I'm thinking of buying my first boat for mainly weekends and vacations involving coastal stuff around the UK and maybe sailing her to the Med. I'm also hankering after doing the very occasional long passage - perhaps to the Azores and back.
> 
> I come from a big yachtie family and they all insist that I should be looking at nothing else but long keel, heavy displacement boats like Hallberg Rassys, Malos, Vancouvers and Island Packets - that sort of thing. The trouble is, these boats are 2-3 times the cost of a mass production boat. While I can see the advantages of extra tankage, huge stability and the ability to hunker down at sea in a Force 11, I just can't justify in my head the extra cost of buying this peace of mind for the sailing I plan to do. In truth I probably couldn't afford it anyway.
> 
> I've just come back from two weeks sailing a Jeanneau 36i and she was a sweet as a nut in winds upto 28 kt and sea states of 4-5. So I'm sure she could handle the occasional big blow. She was fantastically gentle and well mannered. No matter what combination of sail we put up, she never seemed to show us excessive lee or weather helm. Build quality looked good - for the price - and everything worked OK. I've also sailed Bavarias, Beneteaus, Westerlys and Vancouvers and none felt as good as this one. ...
> 
> ....
> 
> Graham





CGMojo said:


> Lived aboard a 2007 Jeanneau 36i for the last two years. The Jeanneau will probably have a lower PHRF rating than the Hunter (mine's 117) meaning that it should be faster. I think you'll find the "fit and finish" and attention to detail better on the Jeanneau. The 36i has a nice head with stall shower. Due to modular construction, the galley on the 36i is the same as the 39i.
> 
> Not sure about parts sourcing on the Hunter, but the Jeanneau is a Euro boat--Swedish bilge pump, Italian hoses, great British (Lewmar) hatches, etc. It's all good gear, but as things need replacing (just the bilge pumps so far) I'm getting US-made equivalents. The engine is Yanmar and it's bulletproof. All the deck hardware is Harken (US) and well thought out. I single hand with no problem. The Jeanneau is more of a traditional rig with a 130% genoa, so you'll probably fly a bigger asym spinnaker than the Hunter will hoist. I use an ATN sock which makes flying the asym easier.
> 
> Bottom line: Both are good boats that will work for you. Sail them both with your wife (and maybe even daughers) along and see what feels best.
> 
> P.S.---If you're looking at new boat and have the resources, I highly recommend you look at the Jeanneau 36i Performance. Deeper keel, taller rig, faster boat.


But they have an advantage ovr me and that is that they have sailed the boat and I have not

I also agree with CJMojo in what regards the 36i performance that seems a lot more appealing to me.






The boat is very elegant and the Marc Lombard design is still very modern, already with a high profile bulbed keel and the beam brought back to a large transom.

:: :: JEANNEAU :: ::

http://www.jeanneauaustralia.com/files/Jeanneau_test_SO36i_Offshore_Yachting.pdf






But if the boat you are considering is this one at this price:

JEANNEAU Sun Odyssey 36i , Diesel, 117.500

I would say that you should have a look at these Hanse 40 in Italy:

Hanse 40 yachts - Vendita, barche Hanse 40 usate, nuove e in charter

The jeanneau is a great boat, one of the best among 36ft but will not be a match for an Hanse 40, not in seaworthiness, not in speed and most of all, not in storage space that is one of the few things where the Jeanneau 36i is not very good. Probably the Jeanneau would have a nicer interior for most (me included) but with some luck you can find an epoxy Hanse and that would more than compensate a not so cozy interior even if one very functional and a lot bigger.

Off course if you can bring that price really down, that is another story

Abc

Paulo


----------



## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Paulo - I love this thread, but all the ginormous HD videos cause it to take forever to load and scroll.


Thanks Smack.

I would be interested in having more feedback about that. I have no problem to scroll the thread and to see the videos on that size, not even on my laptop that has already some years and is not fast. But we have fast internet in Portugal. I have no idea of the average speed among all sailnet users. I know that in Italy is SLOW.

Regarding the videos, I love HD and sharp images and the ones that have problems supporting that quality just have to click on the video and see it on Vimeo or Youtube and there they can change the quality for low resolution.

Anyway if you are not the exception but the rule I can change the settings. 
How about give me some feedback about this guys?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Had not seen the X33 until a bit ago on another forum, had not looked in here for a day or week or so!

Looks like a nice boat if I could afford it etc. 

Marty


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> I would be interested in having more feedback about that. I have no problem to scroll the thread and to see the videos on that size, not even on my laptop that has already some years and is not fast.


Problem not really with HD and scrolling down, but embedded video size. You set it to be iframe width="1280" height="720" and it is fine on your 20" screen, you see it in full. On my older laptop I see like 75% of it and I need to zoom out or scroll horizontally. Zooming out makes text very small/unreadable and scroll horizontally is a bit annoying. So then you embedding video just set a smaller iframe width="853" height="480". Thanks.


----------



## PCP

Ok, that seems valid to me. I will keep when available HD720 (not going for better definitions and 853/450 as standard.

That should allow to view full image on a laptop. If someone has problems with speed, just click on the video and that will allow you to see the movie directly from the provider, there you can just adjust speed/image quality to the one that suits you better.


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> I loved this boat since the first time that I read about! I have plans to build a RG-65 radio controlled scow to test the concept.
> 
> If I win the Lottery I will ask some designer like Finot to build a scow like the Pogo 12.50 but with the scow bow.


Hi, welcome to the thread, at leat as a poster.

They are thinking in changing 40 class rules to allow more freedom and particularly that kind of bow.

Some posts back I have posted an interview with the designer of that boat and he says that there are some disadvantages with that bow, particularly with up-wind sailing with waves and that seems pretty obvious to me. But that concept showed that a bow has not to be sharp to be efficient. I will bet that we will start to see some more moderated approaches in racing boats and performance boats.

Funny, when I saw that bow I remember something that I have read and never understood on a XVI century book about how should be built a good "Caravela" (discovery sailing boat) and they talked about a well rounded bow. Well after seeing the efficiency of that boat I started to understand what seemed an oddity to me

That kind of bow survived till today on some Portuguese traditional boats, like this one:










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*A different Sailboat*


----------



## PCP

*Cruising, racing, voyaging:*

Another 40 class boat cruising around the globe and this one on a slow voyage in a very interesting project where you can participate: Want to sail or race on a Jumbo 40class racer, learning to sail with a very experienced sailor and discovering the world in the process?

That seems very seductive to me. The story is like that: Alexis Guillaume a French racing sailor with many races and the founder of "Sailing Away" sail school (1995) decided to take by the letter the name of that school and sailed away on a 4 year project of circumnavigation around the world with some racing a bit everywhere on the way.

He still teach sailing and he accepts on his boat students/crew for racing or cursing along, kind of a very special kind of "charter".

The idea seems great to me and Guillaume seems to be a nice guy. The images speak for themselves:
















To know more have a look here:

Merena around the world - Sail Away

...


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Lots of talk and polemic about the Volvo breakage. The race CEO. Knut Frostad issued a statement about that:

"It's too early to conclude exactly why this has happened but we are obviously concerned about seeing so many incidents of damage to our boats both in this leg and in the race as a whole.

"It is not acceptable that in a race like this we have so many failures. It is not unusual for boats to suffer problems, and sailors and shore teams are used to having to deal with some issues with their boats, but this has been on a bigger scale than in the past.

*"It's important that we don't leap to any conclusions about why these breakages have happened. Some of them are clearly not related. However, we will take the current issues into account as we make decisions on rules and technology we will be using in the future.

"We have already put in a lot of work, discussing with teams, designers and all other stakeholders about the boats and the rules we will use in the future, and we expect to be in a position to announce a decision on that before the end of the current race".

*

The problem seems that decision will be a very polemic one. It seems that there are talks to turn the VOR in a one class race and worst, it seams that there are talks with Farr regarding the design of the boat.

These is not only bad in what regards boat development as it is ugly in what regards the choice of the designer. Since the Farr boats were clearly beaten on last edition the top teams chose JK (the designer of the winning boat of the last edition) to design their boats. It seems rather odd that Farr would be the one chosen to design the one class VOR boat.

There are some implications regarding the work of KJ being responsible for the breakage and that is rather stupid. Boats are built in accordance with a rule and if that rule provides boats not strong enough, what needed to be changed is not the designer but the rule.

Juan Kouyoumdjian felt that regarding those insinuations he should say something and issued an interesting statement:

*"With our 3 boats safely in Brazil and under the risk of sounding arrogant, I'll break away from my golden rule of not speaking until the end of the race to put the record straight since I believe we are presented with an intentional manipulation of the truth.*

There is a common, spread notion that ALL the participants of this VOR have structural problems, 
that the situation is unacceptable and that something needs to be done for the future. A fundamental distinction needs to be done between the mast breakages and the rest, and whilst I think it is very important to understand what caused so many mast failures, it is a travesty of the truth to put ALL designs in the same basket when it comes down to the "other" structural issues.

*This generalization might suit a specific Team, or person to push any agenda he might have for the future*, but out of respect of the hard and serious work done with my Team I need to speak up:

In the first edition of the VO70s, we had 2 triumphs to celebrate that as designers we are very proud of. One is obviously that our design was driven to victory by a very good crew and the other one is that our 2 boats [both ABN AMRO] were the only ones that completed the full circumnavigation without major structural problems. This celebration was faded by the public 
generalization that because one boat sunk and others had structural failures, then ALL of the boats had problems and the rules had to be changed. Which in fact they did, for the worse!

I didn't say anything publicly then and moved on. However, seeing the same generalization occurring now, I'd like to stick to the facts and so allow for conclusions to be made without generalizations:

• A VO70 cannot be designed not to break. In fact, any boat in a round the world race cannot be designed not to break. So ultimately, breakages are in the hands of the crew. 
• Puma won leg 5 without a major structural problem and this due to the excellence and experience of its crew. 
• Telefonica finished 2nd in leg 5 with a hull delamination in port mid bow which did not prevent her from racing. 
• Telefonica's pit stop in Cape Horn was not a necessity but rather a very clever strategical decision based on having 3rd place assured and a weather window to exploit. 
• Groupama, notwithstanding of an excellent management of the boat during leg 5 to see misfortune hit them with a broken mast, has sailed on her own means to Brazil without structural problems.

So, while we focus in understanding why there have been so many problems with the rigs, I'd beg not to generalize and avoid putting in the same basket the good work and brilliance of some engineers with that of others which are clearly not the same.

Regarding the boats, Puma, Groupama and Telefonica are KJ designs. Abudabi and Sania are Farr designs. Camper was designed by Marcelino Botín.

Regarding this subject the racers also talked about it. The guys from KJ boats had said that they had confidence in their boats and in KJ work.

This is what the Camper guys said:


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## PCP

On another thread I have made a post regarding a brief compassion between the Beneteau Oceanis 37 and the Jeanneau SO 379. I think it will have its place here also.











The Oceanis 37 is probably the best 36/37 cruiser from that market segment regarding the previous generation (I believe the boat is to be substituted very shortly). Several members have them and they have all posted nice things about the boat particularly in what regards speed and safety in downwind sailing. The boat has also a great interior with lots of storage.

There is a significant difference i the price boat (probably because the Beneteau is going to be replaced soon), about 20 K.

The Jeanneau 379 (don't be mislead it is a 36ft boat, the Oceanis is actually bigger) is a boat from the new generation. I never had been inside that one but I suspect I would prefer the Oceanis interior and it seems tome the Oceanis has more storage space.

Regarding sailing the Jeanneau has a performance option (and the Oceanis has not) and regarding the boat with that option I suspect it will make a significant difference to the Oceanis, but then I guess that difference in price will be a lot bigger.

Regarding the standard Jeanneau 379, the Jeanneau is about 200kg heavier, has less tankage (that I think can be increased as an option).

Regarding sailing if we consider the furling option, the Jeanneau has only 62.2m2 comparing with 67.8 from the Oceanis. With a traditional main the Jeanneau has 70m2 of sail. With a traditional main the performance of both boats should be really close if we take into consideration that the Oceanis is slightly lighter.

Regarding righting moment the Oceanis should be a more powerful boat: The draft and ballast are about the same but the Oceanis has a lot more beam ( 3.79 to 3.92) and that will give it a bigger RM. Both boats have modern hulls with the beam brought aft.

The Oceanis will be better downwind and from 60º up but slightly worst in pointing ability and against the wind specially with waves. The rigging is also better on the Jeanneau in what regards pointing with the possibility of a self taking jib that has a better angle. The Oceanis will sail normally with a bit less heel than the SO.

20K is a lot of money but the Oceanis 37 will devalue a lot when a new model appears and that can be this year. If you are going to keep the boat for a long time it is another story and I guess you could even find a better difference in price than the one I was talking about. On the Oceanis and you can add a self taking jib or a small traveler over the cabin (if you buy the boat on a good dealer) for a Jib and that will be very interesting but will cost also some substantial money.

I like the Oceanis 37 and some 3 years ago on a boatshow, attracted by the inexpensive boat price I find a good dealer, one that not only make me a good price on the boat but had also the means and knowledge to, working with the factory in what regards reinforcements and locally in what regards the rest of the work, modify the rigging in accordance with what I wanted: Removable stay sail, additional small travelers on the top of the cabin for a jib, main traveller near the wheel, German sheeting with two additional well sized winches on the cabin and good quality sails. Later he send me the price...well, it was not an inexpensive boat anymore with the additional problem that all those expensive mods would not add any significant value to the boat.
















Choosing between the two, start by the interior and storage and if in doubt, just test sail both boats. The feeling at the wheel is something very important and you can only feel that sailing the boat. The boats have a different set up in what regards the wheels: Two on the SO, one on the Oceanis. I would bet that the single wheel on the Oceanis is a lot lighter than the two wheels on the Jeanneau. Making a two wheel sensitive set-up is a lot more expensive than one wheel and normally only more expensive performance boats have sensitive systems installed. Set on the border and see if you can comfortably steer from there. In what regards the Jeanneau I am sure that it is the case. Regarding the Oceanis I don't know if you don't need a bigger wheel.

Don't forget also to compare the price of both boats with the same equipment installed. That can make a big difference in price.

Anyway, two good sailboats

....


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## PCP

*Traditional Nordic sailboats:*


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## PCP

*New boat: Carbonocean yachts:*

COMMENTS BY SIMON ROGERS DESIGNER OF THE CARBON82:

*The owners brief for the Carbon 82 was clear from the outset: Beautiful lines, around 82 feet offering two modes: ultimate cruising and ultimate racing.

The Carbon 82 has been designed to race under the IRC rule and takes full advantage of RYD's commitment to the rule, since the early 90s. The recent introduction of the IMAs (International Maxi Association) Cruiser/Racing Class within IRC, has meant that RYD have been able to design a yacht with the two modes which the owner originally specified.

For RYD the greatest design challenge was the optimization of both modes: light for the performance races and the availability of displacement for cruising to ensure the ultimate in luxury comfortable cruising. In the Carbon 82, we believe we have achieved this unique balance.

Always in parallel to the design is the construction and there is little doubt that it had to be of the highest standard and utilize the latest techniques and technologies available. Every individual boat builder now working on the Carbon 82 has had to sign up to the challenges that this new and unique concept presents.

Carbon Ocean Yachts have the unique ingredient of passion and the desire to ensure that ultimately they will produce exactly what the owner first visualized and what the designers have designed. We have little doubt that the Carbon 82 in due course will influence the future design direction in the maxi cruiser/racer class.
*


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## PCP

*Fast guys LOL*

And the lighter "boat" won don't miss it, it is going to make you smile


----------



## Arpegecap

PCP said:


> Thanks Smack.
> 
> I would be interested in having more feedback about that. I have no problem to scroll the thread and to see the videos on that size, not even on my laptop that has already some years and is not fast. But we have fast internet in Portugal. I have no idea of the average speed among all sailnet users. I know that in Italy is SLOW.
> 
> Regarding the videos, I love HD and sharp images and the ones that have problems supporting that quality just have to click on the video and see it on Vimeo or Youtube and there they can change the quality for low resolution.
> 
> Anyway if you are not the exception but the rule I can change the settings.
> How about give me some feedback about this guys?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I love the HD videos and have no issues loading with my cable modem. Smack, you need to get off dial-up
Best,
Bob


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## DiasDePlaya

This is the Soto 40 designed by Javier Soto, from Argentina. Now is the top racer class in South America. This is a One Design class. The biggest fleet is the Chilean, and this weekend they raced the first part of the South American Championship in Con Con, Chile, next stop will be in Brasil and then in Argentina.


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## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> This is the Soto 40 designed by Javier Soto, from Argentina. Now is the top racer class in South America. This is a One Design class. The biggest fleet is the Chilean, and this weekend they raced the first part of the South American Championship in Con Con, Chile, next stop will be in Brasil and then in Argentina.
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Yes Soto 40 is one of the most interesting 40ft racers around, fast and inexpensive and Soto Acerbal is one of the best Na around.
> 
> Javier Soto Acebal Yacht Design
> 
> Some month ago I have made a detailed post on the Soto 40. They are not only popular on SA but in Europe where they race the Audi med cup (Soto 40 and TP 52) and the 2012 European championship will be an international one that counts with a Porthuguese boat.
> 
> New faces in the Soto 40 European Championship | Soto40.org
> 
> The boat was one of the first to have that inverted hull on the top, a characteristic that I bet we are going to see increasingly in racing boats before passing to performance cruisers. It has some interesting properties, mot only augmenting stability at limit sailing angles but also providing a drier boat.
> 
> Some more movies, the first one in Cascais, Portugal, and the second one...well you will see...fast boats...and strong no doubt


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## PCP

Fantastic news on the AC45 America's Cup series: New Italian team, a great name on past editions, Luna Rossa, first race...and an overall victory on the fleet race...Uau!!!

That should bring some more interest to the Cup


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> You risk ending up liking really modern boats.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


You might be suprised to hear, that I actually like some modern designs, I am just not a huge fan of the current crop of production boats that are built with dockside condo ideas, rather than the reality of sailing.
If I could afford it, I would opt for the HR 372 ( which I had the opportunity to sail, and totally impressed me both from the aspect of buildquality and performance.) or the XP 38. I also like your fav, the Salona 38, but found that it was not too far from the HR in price when equipped equally, and they also have no representation in the US (which is supposedly changing soon). 
So, then you have a huge $gap down to the Jeanneaus, Beneteaus etc., but after looking closely one finds shortcuts, poor materials and ideas that cut corners in boatbuilding to arrive at the very attractive pricing they offer. Not for me....
There is however one boat, that would work for me on many points, where the euro styling is more subdued  , the layout is sensible and the performance is acceptable even for Paulo , well maybe.... The Dehler 35.
Next year, I will not be missing Duesseldorf....


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## PCP

bjung said:


> You might be suprised to hear, that I actually like some modern designs, I am just not a huge fan of the current crop of production boats that are built with dockside condo ideas, rather than the reality of sailing.
> If I could afford it, I would opt for the HR 372 ( which I had the opportunity to sail, and totally impressed me both from the aspect of buildquality and performance.) or the XP 38. I also like your fav, the Salona 38, but found that it was not too far from the HR in price when equipped equally, and they also have no representation in the US (which is supposedly changing soon).
> So, then you have a huge $gap down to the Jeanneaus, Beneteaus etc., but after looking closely one finds shortcuts, poor materials and ideas that cut corners in boatbuilding to arrive at the very attractive pricing they offer. Not for me....
> There is however one boat, that would work for me on many points, where the euro styling is more subdued  , the layout is sensible and the performance is acceptable even for Paulo , well maybe.... The Dehler 35.
> Next year, I will not be missing Duesseldorf....


You are wrong about the Salona 38 price when compared with the HR 372. There is a really big difference.

Regarding the Jeanneaus and company, well they have shortcuts, but if you chose well it will be not in anything fundamental to sailing or safety. I have a friend that says that those boats come not completely finnished, you have to finish them and have work with them...but they are affordable.

Yes the Dehler 35 is a great boat but I think the Salona 35 is better. Regarding the price of Salonas they are slightly below the price of Dehlers (but with better materials), slightly more expensive than the First and almost the same as a Dufour performance...and believe me, I know

You are also wrong about the Salona 38 being my preferred boat. It is my almost affordable boat. I will prefer a XP-38 over the Salona 38, but that is the one that is an almost similar price to a HR 372 that is also a great boat and even if not as fast as a Salona or a XP, it is surprisingly fast.

Tell me when you go to Dusseldorf and if we meet the beer is on me.

Some images of a XP38 racing:






And the same race aboard a A31:






And aboard a Swan 42:


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## PCP

G1000 said:


> Paulo, thanks for really interesting article. Probably you have already seen, but I will post for everyone interested
> Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | The big debate - skippers comment on Leg 5 attrition
> 
> Few days ago Maxi11 "reborn" as Project11 and several new renderings published. Looks like a dead cat bounce


After all we were wrong, or at least I think so!!! This beauty is probably going to be built and Maxi is going to reborn. Maxy yacht was bought by *DELPHIA*. The humble ones are buying the rich ones

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Speed sailing:*

I have already posted about the DCNS the new Hydroptere project an incredibly beautiful sailing boat, at least to my eyes.
Now some more images in a movie and as a bonus, the Hydroptere story:


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## PCP

*Classic Yachts:*

Sincerity designed and built by Cantieri Baglietto in Italy, 1928:


----------



## Hans Genthe

You will find further information and pictures at the website of the german offshore owner association:
Hochseesegelszene


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## bjung

PCP said:


> You are wrong about the Salona 38 price when compared with the HR 372. There is a really big difference.
> 
> Yes the Dehler 35 is a great boat but I think the Salona 35 is better. Regarding the price of Salonas they are slightly below the price of Dehlers (but with better materials), slightly more expensive than the First and almost the same as a Dufour performance...and believe me, I know
> 
> Tell me when you go to Dusseldorf and if we meet the beer is on me.


About the price differrence: I come up with around 185000 E for the Salona and about 235000 E for the HR 372, same equipm. both commissioned at the yard. Yes there maybe about 50k E differrence , but when it comes to resale, the HR will retain its value better than a Salona, at least in the US.
I will take a close look at the Salona models in Duesseldorf next year, they have a lot of features I find positive, SS hull reinforcements, etc.
I will definetly take you up on the beer. Sounds like the trip is almost going to pay for itself in beer...


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## PCP

Hans Genthe said:


> You will find further information and pictures at the website of the german offshore owner association:
> Hochseesegelszene


Thanks for posting and please keep us informed about future Programs

It seems that I was translating what had already been translated, or worst what was originally in English.

Regarding the 2nd International Yacht Forum (2011) I will post some parts that seem more relevant to me (full text on the link), particularly about a very hot theme: *A single handicap rating*.

..
*One Word, one Rule!*

Bruno Finzi (IT), chairman of the ORC (Offshore Racing Congress) affirmed in his speech the intention to unite the organizations behind the formulas ORC and IRC to one single association. After DSV measurer Kay-Enno Brink had explained the technical basis of the ORC formula, IRC master measurer James Dadd presented the background of the IRC formula. Kasper Wedersoe from Danmark introduced the advantages of the Dansk Handicap: Thanks to simple systems and cheap fares, there are quite a few regattas in Danmark which are raced by more boats than there are ORC measuring certificates in whole Germany.

Via video broadcast, Christian Schaumloeffel from the US (it was 6 a.m. in Virginia) introduced the American way: more than 10.000 yachts are sailing the formula PHRF on the american continent. Pelle Lindell reported via skype from Sweden, that there could be found race fields with up to 1000 boats due to the simple SRS formula.

*Tension rose when it came to the questioning of the time takers. Friedrich Hausmann, vice chairman of the German Offshore Owners Association wanted to know what yacht owners and sailors really require from a formula. „Would you like a unified measuring formula for races all over the world?" Nearly 100 percent of the participants spontaneously answered with „yes"*.

The question whether there should be a new measuring formula did not receive much acceptance: only one-fourth of the participants agreed. The question whether the formula should contain empiric data as well lead to a stand-off situation: about half of the participants lifted their hands. Should the measuring formula contain aspects to protect existing fleeds? This question led to an inconsistent picture, but the majority (about two thirds of the participants) agreed. Cheerfulness and unanimous one hundred percent agreement for the the last question: Should a measuring certificate cost lest than 50 Euros? Opinion: "Yes!"

Race sailing trends, up-to-date: International Yacht Forum sets standards

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Orci*

Regarding the subject of the last post, *one universal racing handicap rule*, I guess that an overview is in order, especially in what concerns ORCI. I Think I have already talked about the World ORCI 2012 championship that this year is raced in Helsinki:

Audi ORC International World Championship 2012

Lots of teams there but pretty lame yet for a world championship that should not be a semi-amateur, or semi-professional thing, with a vast majority of teams from the region where it is disputed. I hope this is just the beginning of a Universal handicap rule and the beginning of a truly world professional championship.

*The ORCI history:

In January, 1976 the Offshore Committee of US Sailing adopted a resolution calling for the development of a new "Handicapping System" to take its place alongside the IOR for those yachtsmen who "prefer a 'handicap' rule as opposed to a 'design' rule."

This system was developed in a response to the mandate of that resolution, and was then called the Measurement Handicap System or MHS. The name was intended to suggest that it is a formula based on measurement of physical characteristics rather than observed racing performance of yachts and that it is of the handicap type as distinguished from the design or development type.

The intent of the system as set down before starting the development work may be summarised as follows:

•	Weigh each factor used in the formulae to accord with its effect on speed
•	Reduce obsolescence caused by the design of yachts which beat a rule and thereby render older yachts not competitive
•	Devise a system which is designer-proof in the inception if possible, but by correction as this proves necessary
•	Provide fair time allowance for yachts of the dual-purpose type (for cruising and racing). It is intended that production yachts of good design should be able to compete with custom yachts.

The system was based on the research at MIT of the H. Irving Pratt Ocean Race Handicapping Project and started with the development of a hull measuring device making it possible to acquire a large number of points and so be able to use integrated parameters instead of the single point measurements.

The major part of this research was the development of a Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) based on the data obtained towing in the tank a series of hull forms systematically modified to test the effects on speed of the performance parameters. This important task was contributed by Delft University in the Netherlands.

The measurement platform adopted was the same as IOR, to enable an easy conversion into the new system of the thousands of boats already measured under the International Offshore Rule that was launched in 1970, and was the very reason for the foundation of the ORC. In 1985 the MHS was converted into an International System, renamed IMS and adopted by the ORC for international use.

Work has continued on refining the speed predictive formulae and on the best means of deriving time allowance based on speed predictions, work largely made possible by the contributions of designers and technologists in the International Technical Committee (ITC) and yachtsmen from many countries.

In January 2008, a new VPP running ORC International and ORC Club rating systems was launched using the measurement platform of the IMS, and the best elements of its VPP, but has been revised to reflect more accurately the performance characteristics of the most modern designs.

IMS - the International Measurement System - is the world's most sophisticated and thorough system of measurement devised to provide the necessary data for determining a boat's theoretical performance potential. The system includes a description of measurement principles and procedures for determining the dimensions of a boat's hull form, appendages, propeller, stability, sails and spars, as well as minimum standards of accommodation and equipment placement consistent with accepted principles and practices of inshore and offshore racing. In an attempt to better meet the needs of regatta organizers, Racing division and Racer/cruiser division yachts are also defined using the IMS.

The roots of the ORC International handicap (ORCI) rule lie in the history of the International Measurement System (IMS), ... Suffice to say, it is the handicap rule of choice where the highest standards of objectivity, scientific accuracy, international application, and flexible scoring options are desired by race organizers. No other rating rule in the world today can match these features.

ORC International will continue to use the IMS platform of multiple modules from measurement to scoring. Boats required to have ORC International certificates will have to be measured using all the criteria listed in IMS.

However, the software for the most important part - the Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) - has been completely rewritten, with major functions reviewed and recent submissions and research results implemented to produce a more powerful and flexible software package. As more data is reviewed and tested, and as the sport evolves in its technological development, ORC International will also evolve to maintain its standards of accuracy and fairness.

As such, this is the most sophisticated and modern VPP-based rating product available in the world today, and is intended for use at championship-level events where the highest standards of accuracy are desired to produce the best results.

ORC will continue to offer ORC Club as an inexpensive and simplified rule, having the same VPP processor as ORC International, but with simpler measurement procedures and automated web-based forms. The ORC Offshore World and European Championships will be raced under the ORC International rule, as will many other top-level national and international races and regattas throughout the world.
&#8230;..
No rating system before ORC International has taken into account the varied performance characteristics found between boats. ORC International ratings are a total of ratings for various conditions: wind strength of 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 and 20 knots, direction of true wind from the close-hauled to 52, 60, 75, 90, 110, 120, 135, 150 and 180 degrees. With this data it is possible to establish a polar diagram that shows the speed of the boat in relation to wind strength and its direction. &#8230;

The computer program that produces polar diagrams consists of two parts: LPP (Lines processing program) and VPP (Velocity prediction program). LPP calculates hydrostatic data, like wetted surface, displacement and stability. These are necessary inputs for the VPP program which creates a computer simulation of the boat's performance based on scientific research of boat hulls in hydrodynamic basins, sails in aerodynamic tunnels and measurements taken on real boats.

Hull resistance is calculated in sailing trim with the total crew weight and equipment onboard for various angles of inclination and wind strength. Forces that propel and heel the boat are calculated for all possible combinations of sails, along with a choice of the optimal combination for the given conditions.
ORC International certificates have quite a large amount of data that allows for several ways to calculate corrected times, including simple scoring options with just one, two or three scoring coefficients.

What makes ORC International unique from other rating systems is that it allows for different ratings in a race depending on weather conditions and the course type, thereby producing more accurate ratings. Thus a heavy boat with smaller sail area will be rated as slow in light winds, but will be faster in stronger winds; boats with deep keels will be rated fast upwind, just as light boats with smaller keels will be rated fast downwind&#8230;.

the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) recognizes only ORC International as the rating system to be used for offshore World Championships. At the conclusion of its 38th Annual General Meeting in Estoril, Portugal 2007 the Offshore Racing Congress has accepted ORC International, VPP-based rating rule that replace IMS as a rating rule, which became a measurement system only.

The sole authority for the ORC Rating System is the Offshore Racing Congress and the Rule shall be maintained and administered at ORC discretion.*

ORC Offshore Racing Congress - World leader in rating technology

.....


----------



## PCP

*Radical sailing:*

and a movie with some sailors that are not afraid of breakers


----------



## PCP

*Traditional Nordic boats:*






Sailing the north sea from Petter W. Sele on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*The last sail:*

An impressive movie. I hope my kids can do that for me when I reach my time: a farewell to the sea


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## PCP

*New boat: MiniBee 6.50*

I have already posted about Barramundi that makes great voyage cats, like this one, the 50ft.






A big Cat is necessarily expensive but Barramundi aslo propose an inexpensive cruising coastal alternative, for those that don't like to go slowly and are willing to camp on a boat. After all on this one you can go to the coast and even camp on a deserted beach. An interesting one





















Minibee | Barramundi boats

....


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Yesterday we discussed with friends the possibility of successfully competing in IRC with a sailboat about 37 feet but with a crew of only 4 people. One said that it is impossible, another said a J/111 with a furler up side down for the gennaker, and another said that with furling for genoa and gennaker is possible in any boat, proposing the new Sydney GTS37.
I think it is impossible in any sailboat without upwind righting weight, but of the two options, I think the J/111 IRC design is more suitable for sailing without crew weight to windward. I think the Sydney GTS37 weightless for upwind righting will not win races.

Do you think?


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> Yesterday we discussed with friends the possibility of successfully competing in IRC with a sailboat about 37 feet but with a crew of only 4 people. One said that it is impossible, another said a J/111 with a furler up side down for the gennaker, and another said that with furling for genoa and gennaker is possible in any boat, proposing the new Sydney GTS37.
> I think it is impossible in any sailboat without upwind righting weight, but of the two options, I think the J/111 IRC design is more suitable for sailing without crew weight to windward. I think the Sydney GTS37 weightless for upwind righting will not win races.
> 
> Do you think?


The only way a short crew can compete successively in IRC is on duo or solo races The French has them and the Spanish also. The Spanish have even an amateur championship.

Actually I think it would be very interesting to have a handicap for crew or lack of it, in handicap racing.

If you want to piss big crews and big boats and be competitive in IRC sailing solo or duo, get one of these 30ft:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## DiasDePlaya

OK, but between the GTS37 and the J/111, which one would sail better with a short crew?


----------



## PCP

It seems to me that the J-111 by its hull design and because it has less beam would be harder to sail by a short crew. It will be a more nervous boat and a boat that downwind will need a perfect sail balance and weight distribution. 

Of course we are talking about racing and to have the boat near the limit.

Both boats have a very high ballast ratio but because the 37GTS has considerable more beam the lack of the extra RM give by the missing crew will be more noticed.

So it is hard to say if the extra difficulty of sailing fast a J 111 with a short crew will compensate the less importance of the RM generated by the missing crew seating on the border or putting another way, if the easy drive of the GTS 37 can compensate the more importance of the RM provided by the crew on seating on the side. 

Of course both boats will be penalized for not sailing with a full crew but handicap racing apart I would rather sail solo or with short crew the 37 GTS than the J 111. The 37 GTS seems a more polyvalent boat to me and one that should be fast solo raced driven by a top sailor.

Anyway the first Sydney 37 has already been launched? I don't think so, at leat I cannot find any pictures. I think that boat is going to be a winner.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Learning to sail*

In Russia...if not at least the guys drink Vodka


----------



## PCP

*Sydney GTS 43*

So no photos yet of the smaller 37, but the big sister the 43 is already on the water winning races and I don't mean on its class, but overall.

Jason Ker the designer is one of my preferred. I guess that if I was rich it would be to him that I would ask to design my boat. It is one of the designers that refuses to make slower boats to adapt better to handicap rules and win more easily. His boats when they win arrive first and just look at his list of recent victories:

Results | Ker Yacht Design

Its even more impressive if we consider that there are very few Ker designed boats around, if compared with others.

besides the Sydney 43 is a beautiful boat:














































Ker says about it:

*Fast, easy to handle, stable and spacious, the Sydney GTS43 serves as a comfortable cruiser, short- handed family weekender and competitive IRC racer. Our design for the GTS 43 delivers a yacht that is light yet strong, easy to sail yet seriously fast, stylish yet functional, and above all else, seaworthy.

Capable of competitive racing at both club and regatta level, this 43-footer can also be easily managed when racing short-handed or when cruising. With its non- overlapping headsail for ease of tacking and an asymmetrical spinnaker, the Sydney GTS43 can be sailed to its full potential without the need for a large and experienced crew.

Its low vertical centre of gravity coupled with its generous sail area to displacement provides great handling and performance.

With accommodation for up to six guests, the Sydney GTS43 has a surprising amount of room. Above deck, the large open transom cockpit provides ease of movement and comfort whether racing, cruising or entertaining, while below deck its roomy interior is contemporary by design and easy to maintain. Large coach house windows provide an abundance of natural light and a greater feeling of size. 
*

The boat is light with 6950kg specially if we consider that Ker boats normaly have a ballast ratio of about 40%. That with a 2.75m draft and a torpedo keel will give it a massive stability helped by a hull that without beam beamy by modern standards is not narrow. The boat has the beam pulled aft and that should contribute not only to stability but for ease of handling downwind.

Of course, 2.75m is a lot of draft but last year I cruised with one sailboat with similar draft and was surprised not being too much penalized by it in what regards cruising. Of course it all depends of the cruising grounds, but to sail offshore....what a boat

Some images of one racing (walalla). Boat out of the box, first race, second in real time, second overall.


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Very interesting photo of the boat that won the last Transat for 40class racing boats, the boat that G1000 posted while I was doing this post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at this photo we can see clearly how this hull "works" and the advantages of this type of transom/hull design:
> 
> Marked by the water, at black, we can see the more usual hull sailing position that is not very different in shape to the one of a more classical boat, offering little drag.
> 
> When the boat goes to the heeling max position (like it is now) it is offered to the water a completely flat horizontal surface that provides a huge resistance to more heel, adding a lot to RM. On a classical boat at this heeling angle the surface offered is a curved one that will not offer any considerable resistance to heeling.
> 
> On bigger hell angles we are not sailing anymore, at least in a effective way, but trying to bring the boat up and on these big heeling angles form stability counts not for much. A class40 or a more classical boat will work the same way and it will count on ballast and draft (low CG) to right the boat up.
> 
> Some has a idea that a open boat has a huge form stability but a bad reserve stability or a big inverted stability. That is not true. The boat has a huge form stability a very good reserve stability and the proportion between positive stability and the inverted stability is very good by any standards.
> 
> Here the stability curve of a Pogo class40: Big AVS, big relation between the positive part of the curve (positive stability) and the negative part (inverted stability) and an overall massive static stability for a 40ft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compare that with the typical stability curve of an half-tonner, a popular old offshore racing boat that many consider very seaworthy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is also a GZ curve but in Ft while the one from the Pogo is in m. To roughly convert divide the values of the Half-tonner curve by 3.
> 
> Both boats have a not very different displacement (3.500kg to about 4000/4500g for a 40class boat).
> 
> To join to that very good Pogo static stability the boat has an even better dynamic stability related with its low mass, beam and small underwater area that makes him able to dissipate the energy of a breaking wave with kinetic movement (lateral and rotating on a vertical axis) other than a rotational movement.
> 
> These two characteristics make this light boat unusually seaworthy and capable of racing on the sea is really mean, in high latitudes.
> 
> Especially for Eric I will post the stability curve of his new boat, the cruising version of a Pogo Class40, the Pogo 12.50:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First an advertency, the Pogo Class40 curve is a GZ curve (length of arm) and this one is a RM curve. To pass from this one to the first one you have to divide each value by the light weight of the Pogo 12.50.
> 
> As you can see both curves are not very different and your boat has also a good AVS but most of all a massif righting moment at 90º of heel and a very good relation between the positive stability and the negative stability.
> 
> With this information you learn that with the keel up the boat has an AVS of about 100º and you have plenty of positive stability. This means that in settle weather and light winds you can perfectly sail the boat safely in shallow waters. In fact the positive stability of the boat with the keel up is bigger than some of the boats that have capsized on the 1979 Fastnet.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I said this already before: there's very little to look forward to at the end of a nice sailing holiday, except catching up with this excellent thread. Thanks again guys, for a few hours of wonderful video's and very interesting opnions.

Paulo, if had known you were in Combrit two weeks ago (Pogo 50 pictures), I would certainly have picked you up to welcome you aboard our TriMen. then afloat in Ste-Marine to work out the last details. I very much regret we missed this opportunity to meet you in person and may be even have a spin with the boat together&#8230;

Last week we sailed the boat over to Nieuwpoort, which was a cold but nice and very valuable experience. I will be happy to discuss this in more detail later, but the bottom line is: the boat dislikes pointing or sailing dead downwind, keeping up the speed is the issue and then the VMG is always very correct. It is quite a different way of sailing compared to more traditional designs.

I mentioned before the statement of an experienced class 40 sailor: it's just like a big 470 dinghy. I've been sailing a 470 for almost 30 years and could not agree more. "Sail the boat under the mast" and first try to build up the apparent wind. Then you get exhilarating sailing everywhere between a close and a broad reach.

Thanks a lot again for your thorough stability analysis of these "open 40" type of designs. Our first experience shows you are once again right on top.

The initial (form) stability is as spectacular as the 4m50 wide (and honestly quite disgraceful) beam. Even with myself and my two basketball centre players of sons on the same side, the boat hardly moves.

Under sail, more than 20° of heel only slows the boat down. But before you get there, you have already enjoyed the enormous power of both the hull (form stability) and the 3m deep, leaded keel (weight stability).

Between l'Aber Wrach (North Brittany) and Cowes we kept all the sail (full main + solent) up in 25 knts on a broad reach. With nice, long, 3m high waves and gusts up to 35 knts the average speed was around 14 knts with some wonderful long and thrilling surfs up to 21 knts, without ever feeling out of control.

So our first experience after 450 NM with the 12.50 is: WYSIWYG. 
A big 470 with visually basic, but functional and in fact quite comfortable accommodation for our crew of 6.

It is very reassuring to know that this is also a very safe design, thanks a lot Paulo!
I wouldn't really dare to sail it with the keel up, not because of stability but because this makes the boat behave like a lightweight long-keeler. This is indeed a very unnatural and inefficient configuration, as we experienced when manoeuvring in windy conditions. Long live the bow thruster!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> ...
> ..
> 
> Between l'Aber Wrach (North Brittany) and Cowes we kept all the sail (full main + solent) up in 25 knts on a broad reach. With nice, long, 3m high waves and gusts up to 35 knts the average speed was around 14 knts with some wonderful long and thrilling surfs up to 21 knts, without ever feeling out of control.
> 
> .....
> I wouldn't really dare to sail it with the keel up, not because of stability but because this makes the boat behave like a lightweight long-keeler. This is indeed a very unnatural and inefficient configuration, as we experienced when manoeuvring in windy conditions. Long live the bow thruster!
> 
> ..


Eric, on the first sail 21K I needed 4 years to sail the Bavaria 36 at 11K

Where are the photos?

A double congratulation to you and many of those hours of sailing pleasure with your boat.

Regarding sailing the boat with the keel up, I am sure I am right and I mean just bringing the boat to the marina or passing shallow waters. You can do it safely with light winds or with the boat reefed. No need to turn the engine on.

Think: even with the keel up the boat will come back for 90º of heel. You that are used to sail a dinghy will not be able to let go the sails if the boat heels more than 45º?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Eric, on the first sail 21K I needed 4 years to sail the Bavaria 36 at 11K
> 
> Where are the photos?
> 
> A double congratulation to you and many of those hours of sailing pleasure with your boat.
> 
> Regarding sailing the boat with the keel up, I am sure I am right and I mean just bringing the boat to the marina or passing shallow waters. You can do it safely with light winds or with the boat reefed. No need to turn the engine on.
> 
> Think: even with the keel up the boat will come back for 90º of heel. You that are used to sail a dinghy will not be able to let go the sails if the boat heels more than 45º?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


It was a lot of fun indeed, Paulo. Many thanks for your kind wishes, I hope we will once be able to welcome you on board .

I will post some pictures as soon as I have sorted them out and may be even some video, if I ever succeed to edit the footage in a decent way .

I'm very confident about the stability even with the keel up, especially after seeing the curves. But I only think we would then need some room in order to to avoid unwanted speering with the bowsprit .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Ker 37*

and while waiting for Eric's movies and sice we were talking about Ker designed boats (Sydney 37 and 43) let's have a look at a Ker 37:


----------



## PCP

Remember this boat:



















That's the Fox 10.20 from Adrien and Capucine, the freshly married couple that was making a circumnavigation in a small light boat. Adrien had posted here after crossing the Atlantic at almost race speed but after that... nada.

They did not actualize their site so I guessed that they had abandoned the project. Well it seems that is nothing like that but that they have had something better to do than posting on internet.

I say that because I just saw a photo of Groupama when he was in Auckland and guess what was the boat that was sailing behind? Yes, Capado, Adrien's boat. That photo was almost taken a month ago so, I guess they are coming home right now, half a voyage already completed.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Do you know the meaning of "Capado" in Spanish? Is not a good name for sure.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

EricKLYC said:


> It was a lot of fun indeed, Paulo. Many thanks for your kind wishes, I hope we will once be able to welcome you on board .
> 
> I will post some pictures as soon as I have sorted them out and may be even some video, if I ever succeed to edit the footage in a decent way .
> 
> I'm very confident about the stability even with the keel up, especially after seeing the curves. But I only think we would then need some room in order to to avoid unwanted speering with the bowsprit .
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Eric,

For sure I want to see your pics!


----------



## mitiempo

I do.


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> They did not actualize their site so I guessed that they had abandoned the project. Well it seems that is nothing like that but that they have had something better to do than posting on internet.


Here is their updated blog in french Le Voyage de Capado Google Translate does a nice job  
Also voyage images https://picasaweb.google.com/103071640564331984300


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> Do you know the meaning of "Capado" in Spanish? Is not a good name for sure.


I know, it is the same in Portuguese. That makes that name rather odd to 700 million people. I already explained that to Adrien. Off course he didn't know

As you probably know it is only in writing because phonetically the sounds are different. The French will say "Capadó".

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

G1000 said:


> Here is their updated blog in french Le Voyage de Capado Google Translate does a nice job
> Also voyage images https://picasaweb.google.com/103071640564331984300


Thanks G.

The link to Picasa does not work at least for me but their site is great. I wonder why they didn't continue their older site?

They have also great movies. I will have a look and I will post the best. For now this two. One that shows the boat and one of the more recent ones : sailing between NZ and Australia.











For the ones that don't saw the first posts about the Fox 10.20: That keel can go up and give the boat a smaller draft.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

PCP said:


> The link to Picasa does not work at least for me but their site is great. I wonder why they didn't continue their older site


It looks like you need to sign in and use Google Plus to see all Adrien's albums. My guess CAPADO creative boat they used for a build up stage.


----------



## PCP

*Fox 10.20: Capado*

Some more movies:


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Hey! That champagne with they celebrate the Ecuator in the last video is Chilean!!! (But not a good one)


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> Hey! That champagne with they celebrate the Ecuator in the last video is Chilean!!! (But not a good one)


 Chile has some of the best if not the best American wines. Portuguese are investing there. I have tried several among them this one:

VIÑA LOS BOLDOS

It is a great wine...and also belonging now to a Portuguese wine company that is modernizing production and trying to improve quality even more.

Back to boats, it seems that the bath tub bow is growing faster than what I would expect. Before it comes to 40class racers, such a well known and reputed NA firm as Reichel/Pugh is proposing a 90ft scow to attempt to beat the Transpac record.

That's the boat:










And there are other proposals on the way. Tison had already proposed this one in 2010 saying it would be 10% faster. I guess he is right:




























http://seasailsurf.com/seasailsurf/actu/spip.php?page=iphone_article&id_article=5944&lang=fr

http://lebras.blogs.voilesetvoiliers.com/2010/05/15/Projet-dun-nouveau-Scow/

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Cruising: Sailing in the Great Lakes.*


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*






A French victory but not a deserved one. I feel sorry for Telefonica even if it is good for the race. Now Grupama is closer


----------



## Daily Alice

It looks amazingly like a flattened sponge.

All in the eye of the beholder, no doubt, but a far cry from the stunning futurism of L'Hydroptère.



PCP said:


> it seems that the bath tub bow is growing faster than what I would expect. Before it comes to 40class racers, such a well known and reputed NA firm as Reichel/Pugh is proposing a 90ft scow to attempt to beat the Transpac record.
> Regards
> Paulo


----------



## mitiempo

Daily Alice said:


> It looks amazingly like a flattened sponge.
> 
> All in the eye of the beholder, no doubt, but a far cry from the stunning futurism of L'Hydroptère.


Yes, but a fast sponge. especially downwind.


----------



## PCP

Daily Alice said:


> It looks amazingly like a flattened sponge.
> 
> All in the eye of the beholder, no doubt, but a far cry from the stunning futurism of L'Hydroptère.


Well, I have to say that I don't like the look but these is the kind of research that makes the boat design knowledge evolve. Have a look at the underwater wet surface on this picture:










and you will see that the bath tube kind of bow provide a nicer and cleaner underwater shape.

This type of bow on the radical way it is proposed on these boats will have problems going upwind, providing a uncomfortable motion and it will not be suited to cruising boats but it will contribute to the knowledge in what regards bow design and to better and more efficient bows even for cruising boats.

I mean after this the idea that an absolutely sharp bow is the best and only way to get performance will not stand and we will begin to see more rounded bows.

As I have said the funny thing is that it is not a new thing. Older boats from other centuries, even the fast ones, had more rounded bows and ancient treaties recommended them as the right way to have a good and fast boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## Daily Alice

Paulo, no doubt.
And, I am in no position to judge design considerations. Though your post did cause me to contemplate the Airbus, an actual bus, and the barge, in terms of bows. Oh, and Thor Heyerdahl's RA II  Please check out the sea motion in 



. Any thoughts, compared to modern yacht design? One of the more interesting sailboats, and sailors, to have roamed the seas ...


----------



## PCP

Daily Alice said:


> Paulo, no doubt.
> And, I am in no position to judge design considerations. Though your post did cause me to contemplate the Airbus, an actual bus, and the barge, in terms of bows. Oh, and Thor Heyerdahl's RA II  Please check out the sea motion in ...


No, not really, nice movie.

That is a supposedly replica of a very primitive boat. Even 3500 old Phoenicians boats would be very modern compared to that. Regarding to motion, the boat is not sailing but stopped, bouncing in the waves, nothing to do with a motion of a modern boat while sailing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Daily Alice

That's true, it's just bouncing around. I think there's a better video somewhere. I'm OT I realize, yet such boats are interestingly radical, if in a manner completely different than what new technology brings. Thanks for posting about such interesting boats yourself, I've learned a lot and sometimes been amazed by what's been built, like the new beachable steel hulls, and Capado.

"What did the Ra Expeditions prove? Did it actually prove that the Egyptians or some other group of travelers with reed boats reached the Americas in ancient times? Of course not. What it did though, was to demonstrate that boats of this sort, with a wide ancient international distribution, were certainly capable and seaworthy, thus putting a damper on the notion that ancient people did not have the means to cross the oceans. One could argue that in terms of survivability, the reed boat is equal, if not better, to most any boat used by Europeans during the early centuries of exploration." http://www.plu.edu/~ryandp/RAX.html


----------



## PCP

Daily Alice said:


> ..Thanks for posting about such interesting boats yourself, I've learned a lot and sometimes been amazed by what's been built, like the new beachable steel hulls...


They are not new (30 or 40 year's old) and they are made of aluminum Some of the most known voyagers like Jimmy Cornell circumnavigated in them. In fact he recommends that type of boat for extensive voyaging. Once I meet a guy that had circumnavigated 3 time on one.



Daily Alice said:


> "What did the Ra Expeditions prove? Did it actually prove that the Egyptians or some other group of travelers with reed boats reached the Americas in ancient times? Of course not. What it did though, was to demonstrate that boats of this sort, with a wide ancient international distribution, were certainly capable and seaworthy, thus putting a damper on the notion that ancient people did not have the means to cross the oceans. One could argue that in terms of survivability, the reed boat is equal, if not better, to most any boat used by Europeans during the early centuries of exploration." ...


I followed that trip in direct and with emotion. It was a great adventure. But I would not say that boat is as seaworthy and safe has for instance a Portuguese Caravela. They could make that voyage because the current and the winds push ten in that direction. That boat cannot navigate against the wind.

The breakthrough with the Portuguese Caravela that is also called discovery ship, was that it could effectively sail against the wind. It was by far for many years the boat with the bigger pointing ability and therefore more adapted to explorations where the winds where not known.










Caravel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After the winds were mapped they sailed those routes not with Caravelas but with ships with big rounded sails (not latin sails) kind of ancient spinnakers, downwind boats that were capable of fully exploiting the trade winds:



















Carrack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New Contest yacht*

Contest yachts seems not to be touched by the crisis: after anouncing a short time back this new 42ft (that I don't find very pretty),










they announced a new 72ft and they are already building it










I like more this one but it is not a mach in what beauty concerns to the Italian boats of this size. They really need to have such an high freeboard on a boat with this size?

http://www.contestyachts.com/media/3482/standard-features72cs.pdf


----------



## Marsvinet

PCP said:


> I have said that if somebody needs to ask the price it is not going to buy this boat
> 
> The price is just huge, 220500€ for the basic price with this specifications:
> 
> http://www.richardbaldwinyachts.com/pdf/solaris-one-37-specs.pdf
> 
> The specifications are good but nothing special. If you buy a Salona 38 with the performance, comfort and basic package you will get a boat with higher specifications for almost less 50000€.
> 
> For superior specifications I mean: Same mast brand but higher range model (three spreaders), rod on the rig (option on the Solaris), Carbon spinnaker pole (on the Solaris even the aluminium one is optional), stainless steel grid to take the forces of the shrouds and keel (on the Solaris, reinforcements in e glass fiber), Epoxy based resins (Solaris resins are not epoxy), three blade folding propeller (2 blade fixed one in the Solaris), Dracon sails (that can be upgraded), no sails included on the Solaris.
> 
> I bet that you can upgrade the Solaris to the Salona specifications but then the Solaris price would be a lot more than 220500€ and the difference to the Salona much bigger. In fact, now that difference is bigger because Salona is offering an introductory price on the 38 and that means about less 30 000€ on that Salona upgrated version, and that means a difference of 80000€ to a lower specification Solaris 37.
> 
> That was what I mean. You don't buy a Solaris for the price or specifications but out of passion and for its impeccable finish
> 
> Regarding the Solaris 37 I have to say that besides the price I also don't like the interior, I mean those fashionable white cabinets that are trendy on this moment in Italy (they are similar to the ones from the new CS 39). The problem with fashions is that they go away rely quick and you end up with a boat out of fashion in no time I prefer the wood interior of the Salona (in what regards design) even if I am sure they can put you wood cabinets, as on previous Solaris models but that, I am sure, it will mean more money in extras
> 
> 360 - Salona Yachts
> 
> Take a look at what I mean. this is the new Solaris 37 interior:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the interior of a bigger Solaris but with wood:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some more photos of the Solaris 37:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Solais 37 is a very beautiful boat and a boat that resembles a lot with the Salona 38, except that this one has the keel I want on the Salona and a slightly better designed transom (for my taste).
> 
> But on the other hand the Salona will be a lot faster: It was more 10m2 of sail area and weights less 800kg probably due to its epoxy based hull.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The the keel of the Salona is 500kg less.


----------



## PCP

*Salona 38 - Solaris 37*



Marsvinet said:


> The the keel of the Salona is 500kg less.


????What do you mean? Where do you got those 500kg?

On the Solaris they give a ballast of 2400kg on the Salona they give a ballast of 2270kg.

The Salona 38 weights 600kg less so it needs less ballast for the same effect.

I don't know on each boat to what keel configuration corresponds that ballast but I know that on the Salona they will make a special keel with the ballast you want for 5000 € more than the normal lead keel. It can be one like the one on the Solaris or a hi-tech one designed by Jason Ker and maximized for handicap racing.










And even discounting those 5000€ a top specifications Salona with far superior specifications than a standard Solaris 37 will cost less 45 000€.

Don't get me wrong, if you have the money and appreciate the top quality of the interior have a top specifications Solaris 37. It will probably not be as fast as a Salona 38 but it is a hell of a boat and the difference should be really very small, negligible for cruising.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Racing Figaro II: AG2R*

the transat is on again. Raced on FigaroII an duo crews the AG2R celebrates its 20 anniversary with a great race. Just look at the images:





















and as usual Morvan is on the lead

Transat AG2R La Mondiale 2012

.....


----------



## Marsvinet

*Re: Salona 38 - Solaris 37*



PCP said:


> ????What do you mean? Where do you got those 500kg?
> 
> On the Solaris they give a ballast of 2400kg on the Salona they give a ballast of 2270kg.
> 
> The Salona 38 weights 600kg less so it needs less ballast for the same effect.
> 
> I don't know on each boat to what keel configuration corresponds that ballast but I know that on the Salona they will make a special keel with the ballast you want for 5000 € more than the normal lead keel. It can be one like the one on the Solaris or a hi-tech one designed by Jason Ker and maximized for handicap racing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And even discounting those 5000€ a top specifications Salona with far superior specifications than a standard Solaris 37 will cost less 45 000€.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, if you have the money and appreciate the top quality of the interior have a top specifications Solaris 37. It will probably not be as fast as a Salona 38 but it is a hell of a boat and the difference should be really very small, negligible for cruising.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi,

On the Salona i get 2270kg, but perhaps this is not the performance version. On the pdf download on richardbaldwinyachts.... 2700kg is given for the Solaris.


----------



## Daily Alice

PCP said:


> They are not new (30 or 40 year's old) and they are made of aluminum Some of the most known voyagers like Jimmy Cornell circumnavigated in them. In fact he recommends that type of boat for extensive voyaging. Once I meet a guy that had circumnavigated 3 time on one.


They seem like the type of boats you could stay at sea with, going most places, with alacrity. Oh, yes, I should have said "metal" not steel hulls, and specified some of the "Lifting keel/centerboarder" boats you list in your Post #1 of this thread, like OVNI and Allures. The basic concept may have been around, but the execution of these newer boats kinda choked me up. Amazing.



PCP said:


> I followed that trip in direct and with emotion. It was a great adventure. But I would not say that boat is as seaworthy and safe has for instance a Portuguese Caravela. They could make that voyage because the current and the winds push ten in that direction. That boat cannot navigate against the wind. The breakthrough with the Portuguese Caravela that is also called discovery ship, was that it could effectively sail against the wind. It was by far for many years the boat with the bigger pointing ability and therefore more adapted to explorations where the winds where not known.
> 
> Caravel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> After the winds were mapped they sailed those routes not with Caravelas but with ships with big rounded sails (not latin sails) kind of ancient spinnakers, downwind boats that were capable of fully exploiting the trade winds:
> 
> Carrack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Regards
> Paulo


Thanks. Coincidentally, I recently watched Part 2 of 



 presented by Tom Cunliffe -- he discussed the legendary race of the

*HMS Pickle: *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Pickle_%281800%29

and her mark in British history; sailing on a replica. The boat was originally named Sting, and "built in 1799 in Bermuda, where this type of vessel was known as a Bermuda sloop" -- the race was won by her upwind capability as "a schooner spurned by the Royal Navy," which was "set in traditional ways." (Not like our times )










the boat shows "the innovations of the Americans" it was reported. Plenty more history to this -- following on influences from the boats and concepts you mentioned in your post?. Quite a bowsprit there. Check out 




"The navy favoured multiple-masted designs as they did not require the large, very experienced crew demanded by the single-masted designs (this was the same reason the Bermuda Sloop Foundation chose a three-masted design for its new Spirit of Bermuda, which is a sail training ship for youths). They also had the advantage of longer decks, which carried more guns. Although, today, these vessels might be considered schooners, and some might debate the use of the term sloop for multiple-masted vessels, the Royal Navy rated such vessels as sloops-of-war... They were intended to counter the then-extant menace of French privateers, which the Navy's ships-of-the-line were ill-designed to counter. Eventually, Bermuda sloops became the standard advice vessels of the navy, used for communications, reconnoitering, anti-slaving, and anti-smuggling, and other roles to which they were well suited."


----------



## PCP

*Re: Salona 38 - Solaris 37*



Marsvinet said:


> Hi,
> 
> On the Salona i get 2270kg, but perhaps this is not the performance version. On the pdf download on richardbaldwinyachts.... 2700kg is given for the Solaris.


Hi!

On the solaris site they give 2400kg.

http://www.solarisyachts.com/repository/download/Scheda_web_SONE_37.pdf

Assuming that they are not wrong on the richardbaldwinyachts, that would be the difference between the ballasts for 2.40 and 2.10m draft.

On the Salona 2270kg is the ballast for the 2.00m draft and 2000kg the one for 2.25m draft. There is a difference of about 400kg on ballast but even considering the difference in ballast the Salona hull is bigger and 200kg lighter.

The difference in ballast is a design option. If you compare the Salona with the French boats you will find that he has much more ballast than those boats (ballast ratio). For normal sailing conditions a more moderated ballast ratio has advantages to sail in light and medium wind (lighter boat), however for offshore work in bad weather it is better a boat with a high ratio of ballast, a heavier boat.

I don't race so I prefer a slightly worse boat on weak and medium winds and a slightly better boat on strong winds and that's why on the Salona 38 I was near to buy I was having a keel like the one on the picture and about more 300kg on a 2.25m keel. Their internal keel structure has no problem in absorbing and distributing the extra weight. There are guys (cruisers) that have put even more weight (on the previous 37).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Daily Alice said:


> *HMS Pickle: *
> 
> HMS Pickle (1800) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The boat was originally named Sting, and "built in 1799 in Bermuda, where this type of vessel was known as a Bermuda sloop" -- the race was won by her upwind capability as "a schooner spurned by the Royal Navy," which was "set in traditional ways." (Not like our times )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


300 years separated the Bermuda sloop from a Caravel so no doubt it was a faster and better boat, specially downwind.

Funny thing is that the Pickle was mainly used as a tender

*"She was originally a civilian vessel named Sting, of six guns, that Lord Hugh Seymour purchased to use as a tender on the Jamaica Station".
*

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Regarding modern times probably nobody has contributed so much for the development of the modern yacht as Eric Tabarly.

His ideas that were then put in practice by some of the best Na around gave boats, all named after the family boat Pen Duick, that won almost everything in what regards Ocean Races in the 60's and 70's and that pioneer the shapes of the next decade modern yachts.

Well maybe we can put at the same level Jean-Marie Finot (the one that designed the two boats that I have suggested to you) in what regards the design evolution from 1975 to the end of the last century but that is another story.

Regarding Tabarly, three movies, two very interesting under the perspective of the evolution of sail boat and rig design, showing all of his boats and a last one that shows its last boat. The ideas that were underlying on that boat were developed by its friend Alain Thebault after his death and gave today's fastest offshore boat, the Hydroptere.

Pen Duick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## PCP

*Vor 70:*

Puma has made a great start and sailed away leading...and a day later keeps its lead. It seems those guys are decided to win home in Miami. Too soon to tell, boats are still very close and there are 4500Nm to make.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

Ir seems to me that Telefonica is already on the best position for the next days. I will not be surprised if tomorrow they were leading.


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## PCP

*Transat Ag2r*

On the last night they got 45K winds. Biscay golf was up to its reputation

On those small light 35ft boats they endured the bad weather and none stop racing. Great little boats the Figaro II, and of course, great sailors out there.

I can't wait for the images

Transat AG2R La Mondiale 2012

and while we wait some great images from other edition of this race:


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## Marsvinet

*Re: Salona 38 - Solaris 37*



PCP said:


> Hi!
> 
> On the solaris site they give 2400kg.
> 
> http://www.solarisyachts.com/repository/download/Scheda_web_SONE_37.pdf
> 
> Assuming that they are not wrong on the richardbaldwinyachts, that would be the difference between the ballasts for 2.40 and 2.10m draft.
> 
> On the Salona 2270kg is the ballast for the 2.00m draft and 2000kg the one for 2.25m draft. There is a difference of about 400kg on ballast but even considering the difference in ballast the Salona hull is bigger and 200kg lighter.
> 
> The difference in ballast is a design option. If you compare the Salona with the French boats you will find that he has much more ballast than those boats (ballast ratio). For normal sailing conditions a more moderated ballast ratio has advantages to sail in light and medium wind (lighter boat), however for offshore work in bad weather it is better a boat with a high ratio of ballast, a heavier boat.
> 
> I don't race so I prefer a slightly worse boat on weak and medium winds and a slightly better boat on strong winds and that's why on the Salona 38 I was near to buy I was having a keel like the one on the picture and about more 300kg on a 2.25m keel. Their internal keel structure has no problem in absorbing and distributing the extra weight. There are guys (cruisers) that have put even more weight (on the previous 37).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Another thing i notice is that Solaris gives the Displacement 6900kg vs 7100 for richardbaldwinyacht...


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## PCP

*Re: Salona 38 - Solaris 37*



Marsvinet said:


> Another thing i notice is that Solaris gives the Displacement 6900kg vs 7100 for richardbaldwinyacht...


It is possible that the boat with the shorter keel and more ballast (2700kg) weights 7100kg and with the deep draft and less ballast (2400kg) weights 6900kg, but of course, the maths are wrong: we have a 200kg difference when the difference in ballast is 300kg.

If you are interested in the boat you have to ask them because they are not clear in what regards weights of the boat in the two keel configuration neither in what regards building materials. I don't know if they have an epoxy option and that will make the boat some hundreds of kg lighter.

Anyway the boat seems to me a bit less sportive than the Salona but as a cruiser it is still a very fast cruiser, a very seaworthy boat, a gorgeous design by Soto Acerbal and a boat that would make proud any owner, as I have said a truly great sailboat...for the ones that can afford it. A prestige boat, a kind of more sportive Halber-Rassy. The price of this one should not be far from the price of the Halberg-Rassy 372.









































































Solaris by Serigi

Regards

Paulo


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## Marsvinet

could not agree more and will of course contact them as soon as i have the money


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## PCP

*Transat AG2R*

Here are those images with heavy weather. Pity we cannot see how they had coped with the really bad weather. On these images the wind is about 20/25K. On the previous night it blow 35/45K


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## DiasDePlaya

Two days working to refloat a J/35 that sunk in the stupid way! Tomorrow I will finish. Very tired.

Sorry for the off topic.


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## PCP

*Benetau Figaro II*

and while we wait for more great images of the Ag2r Transat, some nice images of Thomas Ruyant sailing a Benetau Figaro II. A great boat that shoulf be at the end of its life as a solo racer. Soon many will be found cheaply for sale and this is a great offshore boat that can easily be modified for cruising.

Believe it or not the top guns that sail these animals are complaining that the boat is not powerful enough. I guess that today it is possible to do better. This is a great design but already with some years on it.


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## HMoll

DiasDePlaya said:


> Two days working to refloat a J/35 that sunk in the stupid way! Tomorrow I will finish. Very tired.
> 
> Sorry for the off topic.


ouch! good luck on that project!


----------



## HMoll

Paulo, 

Can't wait on your review of this new baby. Can't find any tests yet, and they should be interesting.


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## PCP

HMoll said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Can't wait on your review of this new baby. Can't find any tests yet, and they should be interesting.


Hi!

The Salona 35 has basically the hull from the 34. A new designed cabin top, a new keel, a new interior, two well set-up and many improvements some of them that I asked to be designed for "my" 38, like the bowsprit and the instrument pods.

A better boat I bet, even if the 34 was already a great boat. Regarding a review, as I have not sailed it, I will have to wait for the reviews from those that have sailed it and has I have nor been in Dusseldorf this year, I cannot judge also those interior modifications, except by the photos and that is not the better way. I will have a better idea when they post the 360º photo on their site.

For someone that is really interested in the boat nothing like charter the 34 for a week, have a factory tour and a visit to the 35 interior and maybe a short test sail.

The 34 tests on Video: They are in Italian but they all say very well about the boat:


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## PCP

New edition of the "Ocean Racing Magazine"

OCEAN RACING : 100% SAILING, 100% RACING !

It is for free (by now). You have just to log in.

This is an English version of "Course au Large". to have the French version you have to pay and a lot. I guess that most French don't read very well English

I guess they are trying to get English readers to make it as expensive as the French version....well while it is free it is a shame to miss it. Great photos there and great articles.


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Difficult tactic decisions ahead. They are going to get upwind sailing. Hard to say who had the advantage. I will bet on the group that is more to the East. We will see.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

Nice images of Puma pushing on:


----------



## PCP

*Soto 40*

I have posted recently about the 37ft Solaris designed by Soto Acerbal and I said that it was a great cruiser. I know that many in this forum will consider that an extreme racer. Let me show you a racer by Soto Acerbal, the Soto 40, weighting almost half and having a not very different ballast with a similar beam. I have already talked about the boat and show some movies but these images are beautiful, from PalmaVela 2012, Mallorca, Balearic Islands


----------



## motorcat

PCP said:


> TNT 34, a very interesting Trimaran that promises to have an explosive performance, an apropriated name I would say.
> 
> Trimarans are expensive but this one is not as expensive as the Dragonfly 35 even if its interior is simpler and less well finished.
> 
> For about 200 000€ some lucky guy will have a boat that has cruising capacity, an incredible sailing performance and a boat that can fold in two ways: For transporting in a trailer and laterally (see the movie) to fit in the marina on a monohull place.
> And it is also a looker. I will be waiting for a video of this one sailing, I bet it will be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TNT 34 spreads the wings. We are ready for Baltic Sea trials
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *MOVIE* - folding:
> 
> TNT 34 Video Gallery
> 
> ....


TNT 34 spreads the wings. We are ready for Batic Sea trilas


----------



## PCP

motorcat said:


> TNT 34 spreads the wings. We are ready for Batic Sea trilas


I hope you make a movie of that and good winds for those sea tests. Post the photos or movies when you have them.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart 1998*

A great movie about the 1998 Sydney-Hobart, one of the toughest editions:


----------



## PCP

And some of the most fantastic sail images ever taken: Larry Ellison's Sayonara on that race going at full blast. Amazing how the boat can take that kind of punishment&#8230;more than the crew that broke several bones on the process


----------



## PCP

*Classic boats: cruising with style*

Just beautiful


----------



## PCP

*Vor70*

Puma is leading again

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

Definitively these light wind conditions seem to suit to them and Camper and not at all to Groupama. Well, too bad for Groupama, they should only get any decent wind after Cabo Branco and that's two days and half away. Till there I guess Puma and Camper will fight for the lead or at least it will be so if they all take the same tactical decisions in what regards course.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | PUMA punch through to lead trade wind drag race


----------



## PCP

*New sailing 24 hour record for a Beach Cat:*

Two French sailors in Brasil, coastal sailing between Natal and Fortaleza, *345Nm in 24 hour* on a standard Nacra 20.

Yvan Bourgnon and Thibaut Vauchel-Camus are the two new record holders and for such a muscled kind of sailing I would say that Yvan Bourgnon is not properly an young lad and it is in great shape.






But Bourgnon is really a small fast cat on big sea specialist. Look at him here on a Med cross:


----------



## Capado

PCP said:


> Remember this boat:
> 
> That's the Fox 10.20 from Adrien and Capucine, the freshly married couple that was making a circumnavigation in a small light boat. Adrien had posted here after crossing the Atlantic at almost race speed but after that... nada.
> 
> They did not actualize their site so I guessed that they had abandoned the project. Well it seems that is nothing like that but that they have had something better to do than posting on internet.
> 
> I say that because I just saw a photo of Groupama when he was in Auckland and guess what was the boat that was sailing behind? Yes, Capado, Adrien's boat. That photo was almost taken a month ago so, I guess they are coming home right now, half a voyage already completed.


Hello,
Sorry for having been away from sail net for so long. I see you managed to find us anyway. We are currently in Whangarei, NZ, for the half way refit. Then we'll go back to Australia, Brisbane. Our plan is to be for christmas at Cape town before going up the Atlantic up to New York and cross back to Europe and be back at Marseille on Septembre 2013. 
We'll add a link on our construction blog: capado.over-blog.com to the cruising blog: levoyagedecapado.blogspot.com
We'll keep on editing our cruising blog all along the rest of our journey.
Don't hesitate to contact us for any question.

Regards

Capucine and Adrien on board Capado ( that stands for "Cap" and "Ado", both our nicknames, and the long bowsprit proves all the Portugese and Spanish people wrong....)


----------



## HMoll

Hey, Ado, we're not letting you off the hook on that joke so easy. I should clarify that the adjective "capado" has nothing to do with loosing the stick. Maybe hang two big ball fenders, take a picture and prove your point!:laugher

By the way, EXCELLENT movie clips! Keep them coming. An envy to many, being recently married and taking on that adventure with such passion! The dolphin shot is one-of-a-kind. 
Best of luck and Fair Winds, 
Hans (Puerto Rico, Caribbean USA)


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## PCP

HMoll said:


> Hey, Ado, we're not letting you off the hook on that joke so easy. I should clarify that the adjective "capado" has nothing to do with loosing the stick. Maybe hang two big ball fenders, take a picture and prove your point!:laugher
> 
> ...


Really looks he does not know what Capado means.

Hey Adrien if I were you I would put an acent on that name on the boat to read it the way you say it: Capad*ó*. That sounds a lot better.

Regards and keep us posted

Paulo


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## DiasDePlaya

PCP said:


> Really looks he does not know what Capado means.
> 
> Hey Adrien if I were you I would put an acent on that name on the boat to read it the way you say it: Capad*ó*. That sounds a lot better.
> 
> Regards and keep us posted
> 
> Paulo


Is the same about the Nissan Pajero, that here in Chile was sold as Nissan Terrano, because "pajero" have a very bad mean here.


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## PCP

*Traditional boats: 1933, Scottish lugsailed fishing boat*











*"Nick Gates found her as a wreck and spent ten years rebuilding her".*

Congratulations to him for having done a fantastic job saving a living memory and a beautiful boat. I would say that I share this compulsion of "saving" beautiful old boats and I have already done my share in the past recovering a beautiful Portuguese Canoa, also from the 30's but whose design (like the one on this boat) is centuries old.

For the ones that like traditional boats and want a replica, that is another way of saving memories and having a beautiful boat, the Portuguese Naval Museum has complete plans of many beautiful traditional boats that will sell for the price of the paper, to help to maintain those memories living.


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## PCP

*New boat:*

Not properly a new one and I cannot say that I like the idea:

A voyage version of the Azuree 40 or so they call it. Now, why a traveler on an arch make for a better voyage boat let me a bit confused.



















I guess they are pointing to Beneteau clientele. For a Beneteau it is a nice 
and fast one.






Azuree 40 - Sirena Marine | Ceccarelli Yacht Design & Engineering

....


----------



## G1000

In reality it does not look so ugly, but still ugly enough uke


----------



## PCP

Hi G!

Are you still interested in the Azuree 40? In the light version or in the standard one? Are they able to put some more weight on the bulb of the standard version?

The boat seems to have a good looking interior. The quality is good? What is your impression about the boat? 

The blue looks very well on that boat, it disguises all those openings on the hull.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Dinghy sailing:*

Some great images:


----------



## PCP

*Maxi yachts*

The confirmation of what I have posted some time ago : Delphia is the new owner of Maxi yachts:



















*
"Now we are very pleased to inform You that we have been able to acquire Maxi Yachts

Delphia Yachts is the new owner of Maxi Yachts International AB now. We believe that with our modern production facility and with long experience in building yachts and motorboats we will hold Maxi boats production at the highest quality standards and live up to the reputation the brand had developed within sailing community.

Delphia Yachts is one of the largest Central European producers of sailing and motor boats. The company currently offers a range of 11 boats that are being sold primarily on the Western European markets, which account for 90% of the export sales. Over the last couple of year the company has been rapidly developing its brand awareness and dynamically building dealership network, which today extends as far as the USA, Russia, Japan and Australia. Through our long standing relationship with Brunswick Marine we also manufacture approx. 1000 of their Quicksilver and Uttern class motor boats each year.

Both Delphia Yachts and Maxi maintain a very high standard of construction and are focused on providing world class service

We look forward to continuing to expand Maxi brand and we see tremendous potential on this brand in our company."*

The big mass production companies are buying the smaller and less mechanized produced prestige brands while these ones are bankrupting. It happened with Grand Soleil, bought by Bavaria, with Dehler, bough by Hanse and now with Maxi. I believe this is a good thing, not only because it permits the survival of great names (and boats) on the industry but also permits the big injection of capital needed to modernize the production lines, made them more mechanized, using more robots, allowing a bigger quality control and a better price.

I just hope the quality will be maintained.


----------



## PCP

Since er are talking about Delphia, have a look at a Delphia 40 atempting and managing to do an entry on a Port in very difficult conditions:






In my opinion this is bad seamanship and it should not be attempted even if that represents to stay uncomfortably on the sea for more hours. In Portugal there are a lot of sailors (mostly foreigners) that have died attempting this.

They were able to maintain directional stability surfing that wave, but it is not an easy thing and sometimes it is just impossible. If the boat start going sideways there is no helm that can put the boat straight again. I used to do surf in a somewhat heavy canoe and I know what I am talking about.

Look at these guys, they were not so lucky, but even so they had plenty luck not going straight to the rocks:






and what to say about these guys?


----------



## PCP

*Cruising: Crossing the Atlantic*

A nice movie :Blue water, lots of different experiences with different sailors and different boats. Really interesting.


----------



## PCP

*Transat AG2R*

They all have passed La Palmas and turned to west pointing to America. Fantastic battle for the leadership between Tabarly and Morvan

Transat AG2R La Mondiale 2012

Nice images:


----------



## PCP

*New boats: Flabria 33 and 40ft.*

Flabria are Polish boats that are not alike other Polish boats, they are relatively expensive boats and point to a superior semi-custom segment of the market.

Never heard about it? well this one I had to confess that till some time back neither do I. Never saw one, they are not in the main European boat shows and I can only judge the quality by the photos.

Why are they interesting? Well the simple fact that a Polish shipyard can survive for several years already, expanding their line and making quality boats without going to boat shows is interesting. If they would not make a quality product at a very competitive price nobody would be buying their boats and they are doing all right on a very troubled market affected by the global crisis.

Let's have a look at their boats:

The older one, the 40 looks a modern but very traditional design (by European standards). Certainly it is not about the design that people are buying the boats. The stability curve is really very good.




























The boat looks very well done and if it is not for the design neither for the price (over 320 000€) it only can be for the quality that they manage not only to survive but also to besides the new 33 a projects for a 45 and 50ft boats.

































The new 33ft looks more modern, with a more high tech keel and it looks really interesting.








































































































































The boat has also a centerboard version and cost a bit over 200 000€.

Yacht magazine tested recentely the 33 and the 40ft:

*MOVIE:*

Flabria 33 und 40 im Doppelpack - Yacht TV

|| Flabria Yachts Finland

....


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Puma on light winds seems to be unbeatable. For the first time he has a significant distance to Telefonica (30Nm). Groupama seems incapable to make the same speed in these conditions.

They will have weak and some medium winds till Miami and I think that Puma is going to have its second consecutive victory in a row while Telefonica will consolidate the race leadership. Pity Groupama...we needed some more competition for the race leadership .

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

*Salona 35*

I have been trying to make a post on the Salona 35 but they have not have post any photos of the 35 sailing, not any news about the new 60. Their site seems to be a bit abandoned&#8230;are they having troubles?

Related with other subject I exchanged some emails with Nenad, the sales director and he told me their problem: They have 40 boats to deliver and have not time for nothing except making boats.

Well since they have no time to put decent photos of the boat sailing, let's see that new interior. It seems it can come in two versions, with white panels or with plain wood.

The one with white panels:





































And for the plain wood interior....we have to look at a Finnish site. They have a 360º photo...while the shipyard has not yet one

Salona 35 tarjoaa vauhdikasta matkapurjehdusta

For more information he can hear what Nenad has to say about the boat:


----------



## PCP

*and some rock and roll*


----------



## motorcat

TNT 34 Baltic Sail Trials


----------



## PCP

*Tnt 34*

http://www.tnt34.com/gallery/video_gallery/1/4/

Nice. As all really fast boats it does not appear to go fast....till you look at the wake or at the motorboat

It appears the wind is not strong but I cannot make a reading on those instruments. What was the wind force on that test sail?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*JPK 38 - new boat*

And what a boat. I want one






The boat looks a lot better than in the drawings with very fine entries more rocker than you would expect on a downwind boat. I has one of those hulls that you look at it and say uau!!! that has to work, upwind and downwind. Even the considerable beam is not evident when you look the hull up in the air.

I really have the best impression about JPK, a former solo racer than many years ago started to make boats, first its own, then for friends and later as a boat builder. I bet this boat is going to increase the size of its shipyard that builds more for racers than for cruisers. I guess this are going to change.

The boat is very light (5000kg) it has a big ballast for that kind of hi-tech keel with a big draft (2.70m). That and the hull shape will make a boat with a huge stability, directional and in what regards RM. An easy and fast boat for solo or short crew sailing. A boat that would be a pleasure to cruise having fun while sailing. The boat has a version with a swing keel: a big draft that will be reduced to 1.30m for anchoring.










I have not seen yet the interior work but JPK makes very good solid interiors with an agreeable cozy feeling. I hope this one will not be an exception.

Guys, I am really impressed. This one will come straight to the short list of my favorite boats and contrary to the Xp 38 this one is "almost" affordable. I guess it will cost 20 or 30 000€ more than a Salona 38.


----------



## nemier

Thanks Paulo!
I now have a new favourite 
It's everything I want out of a mono. (size, hull shape, interior arrangement, performance potential, etc)


----------



## PCP

*Sailing and living: the last boat*


----------



## PCP

*500Nm in 24 hours, a record for short crew sailing.*

and some great images of a two year old unbeaten sailing record for a two men crew. On an Open 60 off course






edit: After all it is not the record anymore. It was beaten last year by Virbac Paprec another Open 60 with Jean Pierre Dick/Loick Peyron as Crew: distance: 506.333 nm; average speed: 21.1 kts in the Barcelona World Race 2010-11


----------



## PCP

*Classic boats*

Gorgeous little racer, built in in 1937 in Norway- belonging to the class called International One Design (IOD).


----------



## motorcat

4-5 min required to unfolding from marina to sail position 




mast up and ready to sail - mast up and ready to sail - YouTube


----------



## PCP

motorcat said:


> 4-5 min required to unfolding from marina to sail position...


Nice concept but you have to review the way the platform between the amas and the main hull folds. That way it stays on the water and it is going to be dirty in now time. Just a detail and not a difficult one to solve.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*2003 Bavaria 36*

Ok, this thread is about recent boats but I have made some recommendations about older but not too old boat but never said anything about my old boat. I was lucky with it. No warranty claims and one of the reason I took so long to find the kind of boats I wanted from my next boat was because I wanted a fast boat with a sensitive wheel and it was difficult to find the adequate type, I mean considerably better than the old Bavaria.

Not all Bavaria models are like that. That one has an interesting story. The dealer from Mallorca, that is pretty much a family more some friends (and also on of the biggest sellers from Bavaria with hundreds of boats each year) used to make the royal regattas in Palma and were a bit pissed up with the results. They asked Bavaria for a faster boat (that was before the Match series) and the cruiser that come for that was the Bavaria 36 (a 2003 model but up on the water since 2002). If you compare the 36 with the previous boat, a 37, it is more narrow, more elegant, a lot less heavier and much faster.

Now that the boat is really inexpensive I have seen the boat racing, cruising offshore and circumnavigating. I have seen it on the Transquadra, on the Caribbean 1500 and on the BVI regatta. BVI spring regatta is not as serious as the Transquadra, just a way of cruisers to have a bit of fun racing mostly in charted boats. An interesting idea and certainly great fun:






One of the boats you can charter there for the race is a Bavaria 36 and it is also one of the most inexpensive. Look at its results on the last year's :
edition:

*Durley Dene, a Bavaria 36 in the Horizon Yacht Charters fleet in the BVI, won its class with five wins in the 40th anniversary BVI Spring Regatta which took place April 1 - 3. Durley Dene, crewed by staff, family and friends of Horizon Yacht Charters and the smallest yacht in her class, won each race by minutes not seconds, beating other yachts up to seven feet larger.*

*Sailing in big seas and winds for the first two days of racing, Durley Dene performed so strongly that on corrected time she would have won three races in Bareboat A with yachts in the 47 to 55 foot range including Beneteau 50.5s, Sunsail Jeanneau 53s and Moorings 54.5s.

Durley Dene is no stranger to victory having racked up 19 victories in 20 races spread over this BVI Spring Regatta and three Antigua Sailing Weeks in 2004 and 2005 and 2006; a second place in one race during the 2005 Antigua Sailing Week marred the almost perfect score, when she was becalmed. This was Durley Dene's first regatta outing since 2006 and she has been working hard in the Horizon charter fleet since then.*

Bavaria 36 -- Perfect five at 2011 BVI Spring Regatta

I know that it is handicap racing but anyway, it is fun to win and even if the boat is not as fast as a First 36.7 an Elan or Salona 37, it is a remarkably fast boat for its time and faster than many bigger cruising boats, especially with light winds and not only. The first time I notice that was when I saw that I could beat, solo sailing with 10K wind a Beneteau 39 with full crew, upwind and pointing higher and that is quite amazing since the Bavaria come with a big 150% Genoa, hot the best sail for pointing ability. On one of the few races I had done with it, with light winds I managed to beat a Dufour 40 performance, with my 10 year's old soon doing the steering while I was keeping the sails in shape (the Dufour was a a bit faster upwind but downwind I recovered more than what I had lost upwind).

So if you don't have much money want a boat with a great storage space and a good performer you could do worst than buying a Bavaria 36 of that vintage.

Pay attention because not all boats are the same, go for the one with 1.9m draft lead keel and for the classical mast that has a lot more sail that the furling one.

The boat was a big success and many hundreds of boats were made so it is not difficult to find them at a good price. You can find them from 60 000 USD.



















Now you cannot say that I never talked on this thread about really inexpensive boats

....


----------



## PCP

*Cruising: sailing in Brasil*

Nice movie






and just because it is beautiful:


----------



## PCP

*Arc*

Crisis? what crisis This year's ARC edition, that will take place 7 months from now is full...but the inscriptions keep piling up.

They have made an effort to accept more boats&#8230;in Las Palmas they will mount more pontoons and they have taken in 270 inscriptions&#8230;but after that 25 more have appeared and it seems more will come.

Around 300 sailboats crossing the Atlantic at the same time!!!! Who would have believed it possible some years back. So much for the crisis.


----------



## PCP

*Antigua Sailing week*

Nice images


----------



## AlaskaMC

Ok, I think I have a boat that hasn't been on the thread, or the brand even. Just ran into it by accident and thought I would toss it into the mix. E Sailing Yachts. The builder is Lyman Morse and the designer is Jeremy Wurmfeld. (I looked on the index and couldn't find it there. Sorry If I missed it in the last two years of reading the thread! )

First, the e-33 day sailer.
















Hadn't heard of them before. They have designs for a 27' day sailer and a 44' cruisier. Here is the 44

















Thought they were interesting to me at least. The 27' day sailer looks like it would be fun and easy to sail.








Old school look but some new ideas. Anyone have any thoughts on these?


----------



## PCP

*e boats*

Hi!, thanks for posting.

Yes I have posted about the bigger one some months back. It is really a nice boat and it is amazing how it is not been produced yet. Sailboat interest in the US is really weak when compared with Europe. Interesting expensive boats always find a buyer here.

The e27 I don't know if I posted about but those are really nice boats and they are very welcomed again on this thread, maybe someone around there notice them and we can see the e44 in flesh and bones.

The e27 is really a delightful daysailer, a classic boat with a modern under-body and I bet it will be a pleasure to sail and fast too.

To complete the e-series they also make the e-33, also a daysailer and they have a new high performance sail with a square top. Nice the look of modern things blended with old classical shapes






e33 - Sailing World

e Sailing Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Cruising in a minimalist way:*






Do you thought I was talking about performance boats? Well, on a performance boat it can be a bit like that but with more space for the same stuff but a lot more fun sailing


----------



## motorcat

TNT 34 test trial - http://www.youtube.c...h?v=X7qH1M1Tp4w


----------



## motorcat

TNT 34 across the waves - http://www.youtube.c...=1&feature=plcp


----------



## PCP

*Beneteau Sense 55*

Not definitively minimalist cruising






The boat was tested by Yacht magazine and they have made a great movie, don't miss it.

*Movie:*

Beneteaus Flaggschiff Sense 55 im Test - Yacht TV

The boat looks good and it seems to sail well.

...


----------



## PCP

*Wauquiez 55 and Feeling 55*

The Sense competition:


----------



## PCP

*VOR: Very interesting*

Hey Guys, you should give a good look at the the VOR: About 1000 Nm to go and three boats with a difference of 20Nm, very complicated weather pattern big tactical decisions on the next hours and *all the three are taking different options.*

I guess that there is a big chance that the winner will be determined on the next 24 hours.

Puma starts with a 13Nm head lead&#8230;but that is no big assurance given the difficulty of the game ahead. Any slight mistake will cost it the lead.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

*Transat AG2R*

Now, if the VOR is super interesting what to say of this one? Take a look at what is close offshore racing:

Transat AG2R La Mondiale 2012

Tabarly and Morvan has been in a close fight from the beginning, changing regularly the lead and to make things more interesting they got decent wind and are going fast. Nice images too:


----------



## PCP

*Antigua race*

Also great images from Antigua...it seems they also got a nice wind


----------



## PCP

*Re: VOR: Very interesting*



PCP said:


> Hey Guys, you should give a good look at the the VOR: About 1000 Nm to go and three boats with a difference of 20Nm, very complicated weather pattern big tactical decisions on the next hours and *all the three are taking different options.*
> 
> I guess that there is a big chance that the winner will be determined on the next 24 hours.
> 
> Puma starts with a 13Nm head lead&#8230;but that is no big assurance given the difficulty of the game ahead. Any slight mistake will cost it the lead.
> 
> Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


It is on these conditions that big gains can be obtained. All boats are doing less than 6K, some just doing 2K.

So far Puma had played it brilliantly and has won miles over the pursuers (3.5Nm) and most of all, now they seem to be all in about the same course.

Another one that has been playing very well is Groupama that reduced by half the distance that separates it from the leader, but I guess that it is too late and the weak winds ahead will not be to its advantage.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

..


----------



## PCP

*New boat Xp 50*

It is on the water and I find it absolutely gorgeous, one of the nicest looking boats around:





































This boat seems to have absolutely brilliant performances: In light winds with 6K wind the boat can make 8K speed and that is extraordinary because light wind sailing is not the area where this boat will excel.

http://www.x-yachts.dk/uploads/Diagram_Xp50.pdf

This boat belongs to the family of "heavy" boats, boats that have a big Ballast ratio, in this case almost 50%, with big drafts and all weigh in a torpedo. This means that this boat will excel in strong winds and heavy seas where that ballast ratio can be put to good measure. One for the Sydney-Hobart, or to cruise fast and safely around the world, and for that, just look at this galley:










Not a naked racer for sure... What a boat

......


----------



## PCP

*Cruising Indian Ocean*

two girls on a sailboat:


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Grand Soleil 43*

Well, Cantieri del Pardo, now under the Bavaria umbrella, seems not to want to waste time. After the 39 success now they are going to make a new 43.

The later model, that is a very beautiful boat, won last month the Spi Ouest-France putting 3 Grand Soleil 43 in the first 4 positions on IRC 1. So much for the French boats

They are substituting what is a winner...and after having a look at the new boat, I guess they are substituting for another winner and a better boat.

The designer is the same of the 39, Claudio Maletto, and the boat has about the same weight (less 100kg) but it has more 250kg of ballast and a more modern transom, with the beam brought aft. The beam is about the same (more 5cm) but the LWL is 30cms bigger. A more stiff boat and a better boat downwind without losing nothing of the very good upwind potential of the older boat.

They still use a grid do distribute the keel weight and the stays forces by the hull, but from some time now they have substitute the steel one by a carbon one. The boat will cost over 300 000€.


----------



## PCP

*The boat project*

Crazy story:

*The Boat Project is a living archive of people's stories and lives, a 30ft vessel made from donated wooden items. From February to July 2011 the public donated their wood to the project but not just any old wood. Pencil or piano - exotic as Zebrawood or as familiar as pine every piece had a story behind it. Donations arrived in their thousands, from the highly personal to pieces of national importance. All of these donations are now being used to build a state-of-the-art seafaring yacht. *

The Boat Project

Over 1200 people donated wooden objects of significance which have all been used in the build of the yacht designed by Simon Rogers Yacht Design.

Lovely daysailer and an work of art:


----------



## PCP

*Moth sailing*

If I was younger that would be the dinghy I would sail. It should be a great sensation, just flying over the water leaving the other boats dead on the water.






But I have to admit this is also nice inshore sailing and should be creat fun:


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau 50 DS*

Cruising on a Jeanneau 50DS, nice and easy:


----------



## PCP

*New Boat: Soto 30*

I have already talked about it and the first one is on the water, the small brother of the Soto 40, the Soto 30.

For being a great boat it only needs to be about as good as the bigger one. It looks really great and Soto Acerbal is becoming a heavy height NA even more so now that he moved to Europe, Barcelona, more precisely. Lots of commands and many nice designs have already been made by him and not only racers like this one.


----------



## PCP

*Pacer 27*

Taking about great little boats, the Pacer 27 is one of them. I have alreadt talked several times about the South African Pacer yachts and the last time to say that the Pacer 310 will be made under license in Europe.

One of their greatest success is the Pacer 27 a little offshore boat that can piss a lot of bigger boats, not to mention the sailors aboard them.

*The Pacer 27 Sport is a new generation trailer sailer which offers very exciting sailing and top speeds at a fraction of the cost of boats twice it's size.

Designed by Alex Simonis and Maarten Voogd.. our brief was for a boat which would perform offshore the South African coast (Cape of Storms), and still be great fun on inland waters. It was also important to have a small interior capable of sleeping 2 adults and 2 children for those family units where dad races hard, but still wants to be able to treat the kids to a night or two on the boat.

To make the boat into a One Design class which enjoys good fleets no matter where the sailing venue may be, it was important to ensure that it could be easily slipped and towed. The retractable keel and removable cassette type rudder means that the boat sits low on it's trailer, tucking in behind the tow vehicle, and it's low mass means it can be easily pulled by a 2.5ltr car or light van.

The rig is easily dropped or raised, with just 3 persons, and will take about 40 minutes from arriving at the waters edge to launching the boat.
..
Top SOG measured to date was during Table Bay Week 2006, with North Sails' Rick Nankin driving the boat, at 24.5knots. Exciting? We think so. Rick's comments were that the boat was totally in control at the time -and we have had similar comments from owners, such as Antony Wentworth from Falsa Bay Yacht Club where they enjoyed a fantastic run from Cape Point back to the club, with the bag up and maintaining speeds in the top teens whilst 100% in control in a bumpy sea.

..So, if you are looking for a reasonably substantial boat, one which can be towed far easier than most, and one which will bring a smile to your face every time you jump on board, then this is the boat for you. Naturally, you will also WIN RACES.

..*

http://www.paceryachts.co.za/view_boat.php?id=1275396807

Look at the guys waving goodbye to the bigger boats


----------



## PCP

*Dragonfly 28 sport*

Hamnen had already tested the boat but now they have made a more complet test...and the boat was sailed on the limit, heeled like a monohull...but at another speed. Nice


----------



## PCP

*Vor*

Very well played by Puma, nobody will be able to take its second consecutive victory.

They will have very weak winds near Miami but the two other boats on the front of the race have chosen the same option and that seems a mistake to me.

I guess that Groupama and Abu Dhabi have chosen the faster road going East of the Bahamas but Groupama has 125Nm of retard and that's too much, probably they will not even be able to catch any of the three leading boats&#8230;.but they are going to win miles on the leading trio or at least is what I think

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

*Vor*

I was right about Groupama (won 40Nm over the night) and maybe they can catch Telefonica but wrong about Puma. I don't know how Camper have managed to recover so many miles on Puma, going the same course but with a difference of only 13K to Puma and 450Nm to go, with a difficult last hundred miles (very weak and unstable wind) everything is at stake.

*We have a hot race again*

Puma versus Camper and Telefonica versus Groupama. who would say that Groupama could be back on the race? They have a disadvantage over Telefonica on weak winds but as this is a tactical race from now on we can count on Cammas to put a good fight.

Don't miss the next 24 hours, it is going to be interesting

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/ne...n-PUMA-as-Groupama-close-down-Telefonica.html

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

..


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

*Wow!!!!!* Groupama overtook Telefonica and Camper is closing on Puma. Won 2Nm on the last hours and it is now at 11Nm from Puma.

440Nm to the finish. *HOT!!!!!*

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## Melrna

Very Hot race. Flying down to Miami later today to meet the boys when they arrive on Weds. Cannot wait. Puma better win.


----------



## kelsey loves sailing

hey people im 13 and i absolutly love sailing can you tell me the parts of a dinghy sail? lets see how much you know


----------



## PCP

Melrna said:


> Very Hot race. Flying down to Miami later today to meet the boys when they arrive on Weds. Cannot wait. Puma better win.


 I hope you can have a finish like the one on the last leg...and may the best win

Meanwhile Camper is still recovering miles. More 3 since the last post. They are now at only 8Nm but Puma has already show us that is capable of a great finale.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Ag2r*

This one is also very competitive:

Transat AG2R La Mondiale 2012

With Morvan leading, as usual, but lots of boats very close.

Unfortunately the wind has not been strong and the images are nothing special.

Instead have a look at these interesting images: Same boats other race (solo), with all coming to port almost at the same time.


----------



## PCP

*Vor*

And Puma wins back all the miles that Camper had won previously 

Jesus those guys should be nervous, Puma is making 4k, Camper 3K and the fastest on the fleet is Groupama doing 7k but on the wrong direction. This is going to be a hard night for all of them.

Groupama is making the best performance and as I have said, in my opinion, it chose the best option, but it seems that the 68Nm will be impossible to recover in 420Nm, but who knows, if they keep making 7K while the others ate making 4K....


----------



## PCP

*Vor*

Slow, slow motion racing... bad for the nerves

Puma average speed 1.8K, Camper av. speed 2.6, Groupama av. speed 5.2, Telefonica 4.2, Abu Dhabi 4.1.

Puma and Camper maintain the same distance while Groupama has won more 10Nm. Now it only needs to won more 58 on 410Nm

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

*First 40*

Great video with Paca, the First 40 that won its division on the 2010 Sydney-Hobarth edition.


----------



## PCP

*Vor70*

Yes I bet that they had a terrible night and that they would have prefered to be bouncing around at 25k than to be sleep in a dead calm with a 3 or 4K wind, at least Puma that can't wait to arrive to Miami. Puma have managed to maintain positions through the night but not been able to pull away and only Groupama won some miles on them, but not as many as before.

Still a dangerous game. With these conditions and with Island on the way anything can happen with 320Nm to go and only 11Nm between the two leading boats.

Pity that they have all to turn a buoy on Eleuthera Island and therefore have to converge there. It would be a lot more interesting if they had a free play to Miami. However it is going to be interesting to see if Groupama is going to pass Cat island to the west or to the East, as the two leading boats. It seems to be more wind West but I am not sure if the wind direction would compensate that move.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

*Classic boats*

And while we wait for more developments some nice images of a regatta on these same waters, 70 years ago. Some differences in the boats


----------



## PCP

The one that will be leading in 12 hours will win the race, providing it has some advantage. On the next 12 hours the very weak winds will continue and after that they will have a good wind to Miami.

Meanwhile Puma is not only holding on but winning some few miles to Camper while Groupama keeps winning to everybody.

I guess Puma is out of Groupama reach but Camper is only at 27Nm with 290 to go. It would be almost impossible but you never know. Will they go West of Cat Island? Will Telefonica follows or will go the other way around trying to eat the 16Nm that separates them from Groupama?

A close call for Groupama: To risk more to try to catch Camper or risk less and protect themselves from Telefonica, their main opponent on the race?

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## Mr W

*Jpk 38fc*

Hi Paulo,

Great thread, keep up the good work!

Some new pictures of the JPK 38FC interior. Looks really good! Have you heard anything about the performance of this boat?

Kind regards,

Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: Jpk 38fc*



Mr W said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Great thread, keep up the good work!
> 
> Some new pictures of the JPK 38FC interior. Looks really good! Have you heard anything about the performance of this boat?
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Mr W


Hi!Mr W, thanks for posting. As I was expecting from previous boats that seems to be a great interior with good quality materials. I also like the look of it: cozy and light and JPK offers a great deal of customization.

That also means that there are already two boats made . The exterior photos I have posted were from a version with a fixed keel this one seems to be a swing keel version.

About performances that is easy to tell: This boat is FAST. I don't know any JPK boat that is not fast anyway

It is not a boat made for handicap racing and possibly the handicap would not be very good, I don't know, but I know that you are going to arrive in the middle of the racing boats. If you are talking about just cruising and have fun, this and a Pogo are as fast as you can get. This boat has also a lot of ballast and it will be a very seaworthy boat. I would like to have a look at the stability curve, but I bet it is great.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

*Re: Jpk 38fc*



Mr W said:


> Some new pictures of the JPK 38FC interior. Looks really good! Have you heard anything about the performance of this boat?


Very nice! Looks like I got dilemma


----------



## Mr W

*Re: JPK 38FC*

Hi Paulo,

I actually think this is the version with the fixed keel. I think they all have the same layout with what looks to be a box under the mast support for the hydraulics, but on this boat it´s probably just some storage for some bottles of fine liquor... I think there has only been one boat built, and that is the fixed keel version (not 100% sure though).

Do you think the JPK 38 will have somewhat equal performance as the Pogo 12.50? It only has 80 sqm of upwind sailarea, compared to the Pogos 107 or so sqm, and it weighs almost the same.

The reason why I have been following this thread is that I´m looking for a new boat for me and my family. We have two young boys and therefore I´m looking for a boat that is stable and easy to single hand. The area where we spend most of our time on the water is characterized by mostly light winds (5-15 knots), flat water, shallow harbours and lots of small islands with tight passages.

I have previously owned 2 trimarans and before that I have been in the world of keelboats with my parents. I´m a bit hooked on multihulls due to speed and stability but my mind is open for keelboats as well, if I can find one that can be very fast with relatively little effort put in to it! The mrs always reminds me that a multihull can capsize, even though I try to convince her it won´t. I have had my eyes on the Pogo 12.50 and JPK 38, but they are imho a little bit too big for us. I was thinking max 35 feet. It´s a shame that the Pogo 10.50 isn´t as modern design as the 12.50 and the JPK.

Any other suggestions?! 

Kind regards,
Mr W


----------



## G1000

*Re: JPK 38FC*



Mr W said:


> I actually think this is the version with the fixed keel. I think they all have the same layout with what looks to be a box under the mast support for the hydraulics, but on this boat it´s probably just some storage for some bottles of fine liquor... I think there has only been one boat built, and that is the fixed keel version (not 100% sure though).


Mr W, just take a look at table top, first image some kind of orange, last one without such top. But images are taken just 10 minutes apart.




















Mr W said:


> I have had my eyes on the Pogo 12.50 and JPK 38, but they are imho a little bit too big for us. I was thinking max 35 feet. It´s a shame that the Pogo 10.50 isn´t as modern design as the 12.50 and the JPK.


Why don't you wait for Pogo 30 then.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Jpk 38fc*



G1000 said:


> Very nice! Looks like I got dilemma


Should not be a problem. More choice is always good. Go there sail both boats, sit inside and have a feeling of what would be living there, see what are the customization options on both boats talk with the builders and I am sure you will find out what is the one you prefer.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

*Re: Jpk 38fc*



PCP said:


> Should not be a problem. More choice is always good. Go there sail both boats, sit inside and have a feeling of what would be living there, see what are the customization options on both boats talk with the builders and I am sure you will find out what is the one you prefer.


Already checked distance between both yards. Just 87.5 km  Decisions based on feelings are not the best in such a case


----------



## bjung

The JPK is an interresting boat, certainly fast, but I wish builders would go back to respect the need for ventilation for a cruising situation, besides the wed night around the cans. The JPK is an extreme example, and it's primary use will be racing, but most newer production boats show the same trend, more light, less opening portholes and hatches. Hardly any of them have dorades, or solarvents. I wonder why, it's not that much expense to do that. 
Another trend is the linear galley as boats have gotten fatter. Not really optimized for cooking while underway, and also the loss of a good seaberth, and extra settee. But I think personal preferences and use will differ on that.


----------



## Mr W

*Re: JPK 38FC*



G1000 said:


> Mr W, just take a look at table top, first image some kind of orange, last one without such top. But images are taken just 10 minutes apart.


That orange table top might be a lid or something, removed on the second photo? Don´t know really! Strange choice of color though



G1000 said:


> Why don't you wait for Pogo 30 then.


I have been looking at the Pogo 30 as well, I guess I have to wait until it´s finished. On the pictures it appears to lack cockpit backrests, which might be a safety concern with the kids. But they are nice boats, aren´t they!

I hope Eric will share some more experiences from the 12.50. I´d be really interested in how the boat performes in flat water and at what windspeeds it will start planing without the help of surfing.

Kind regards,
Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Jpk 38*



bjung said:


> The JPK is an interresting boat, certainly fast, but I wish builders would go back to respect the need for ventilation for a cruising situation, besides the wed night around the cans. *The JPK is an extreme example, and it's primary use will be racing,* but most newer production boats show the same trend, more light, less opening portholes and hatches. Hardly any of them have dorades, or solarvents. I wonder why, it's not that much expense to do that.
> ..


Regarding *The JPK is an extreme example, and it's primary use will be racing,* you cannot be more off. The 38 is the *ONLY* JPK that has nothing to do with racing and is thought exclusively for cruising. That is JPK idea of a cruising boat and it seems it is not yours.

Regarding ventilation I don't see a problem but if you want JPK will open all the holes you want or almost. This is a boat with a good level of customization.

Regarding less openings on the hull (and more light and outside views) as a tendency you are right specially in what regards to lateral small openings in the cabin. They all with time will let water in, so no more of that. The tendency is to substitute that with bigger and a superior number of hatches especially on the saloon.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Jpk 38fc*



G1000 said:


> Already checked distance between both yards. Just 87.5 km  Decisions based on feelings are not the best in such a case


Well, do you have also test sailed the boats, maybe the feeling at the rudder will make the difference 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: JPK 38FC*



Mr W said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> ...
> Do you think the JPK 38 will have somewhat equal performance as the Pogo 12.50? It only has 80 sqm of upwind sailarea, compared to the Pogos 107 or so sqm, and it weighs almost the same.
> 
> The reason why I have been following this thread is that I´m looking for a new boat for me and my family. We have two young boys and therefore I´m looking for a boat that is stable and easy to single hand. The area where we spend most of our time on the water is characterized by mostly light winds (5-15 knots), flat water, shallow harbours and lots of small islands with tight passages.
> 
> I have previously owned 2 trimarans and before that I have been in the world of keelboats with my parents. I´m a bit hooked on multihulls due to speed and stability but my mind is open for keelboats as well, if I can find one that can be very fast with relatively little effort put in to it! The mrs always reminds me that a multihull can capsize, even though I try to convince her it won´t. I have had my eyes on the Pogo 12.50 and JPK 38, but they are imho a little bit too big for us. I was thinking max 35 feet. It´s a shame that the Pogo 10.50 isn´t as modern design as the 12.50 and the JPK.
> 
> Any other suggestions?!
> 
> Kind regards,
> Mr W


I don't think the Pogo 10.50 is dated and if you like the interior you should consider it. The Pogo 12,50 is much bigger than the JPK 38 and overall will be more fast but only if you have someone to help sailing it or if you are a hell of a sailor, kind a professional racer.

The JPK 38 will be easier to sail and a "normal" good level sailor will probably be more able to exploit the boat solo compared with the Pogo 12.50. The JPK is also a better all around boat, better upwind and will probably have a more comfortable sea motion in waves.

Regarding speed a Trimaran will always be faster except in bad weather.

Remember this kind of boats are designed to be easy to sail, very fast downwind but regarding all around absolute performance a light narrower boat with lots of ballast will be faster. The problem is that such a boat will not only be more nervous but also more expensive to built and will have normally a big draft.

Regarding other boats, why not the Malango 999. I have posted about it already. It certainly is a fast and interesting boat with a great interior.











idbmarine chantier de construction naval du voilier Malango

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New boat: RM 1260*

The boat is on the water. First photos from a test that will be published soon on Yacht magazine. The boat looks huge for a 40ft and the interior space is&#8230;big.


----------



## Mr W

*Re: JPK 38FC*



PCP said:


> I don't think the Pogo 10.50 is dated and if you like the interior you should consider it.


You´re right Paulo, it´s not that old. But I imagine that the 12,50 and JPK will have a much better form stability due to the chined hulls and should also therefore be able to carry more sail. I might think to much of chined hulls though.



PCP said:


> Remember this kind of boats are designed to be easy to sail, very fast downwind but regarding all around absolute performance a light narrower boat with lots of ballast will be faster.


It has been pointed out that the Pogo 30 might start planing at TWA 60-65, which would make that boat a rather good allround boat for me. If it does this, I don´t really care that it´s not the best upwind boat of this size The swing keel with depth between 0,95-2,40 is really appealing too. You can reach some really shallow waters with it! I wonder if Structures would consider building an all carbon Pogo 30, that would really do it...



PCP said:


> Regarding other boats, why not the Malango 999. I have posted about it already. It certainly is a fast and interesting boat with a great interior.


Thanks Paulo, I haven´t seen this boat yet!

My best alternative when it comes to trimarans is the Dragonfly 32, which I don´t believe you have mentioned earlier in this thread? The first boat should be finished later this month, I really look forward to it!










I saw that you posted the video of the Dragonfly 28 a few days ago. I went on a sail on just that boat this weekend and I must tell you I´m allways suprised by the speed of those boats! We had 6-8 knots of wind with 10 knots gusts. We maxed out at 10 knots boat speed that day. Nice!

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Easy sailing till the finish line. Puma is going to win and deserve it. They never give a chance to Camper on all those hours of difficult navigation. Well done guys!!!

Groupama had done what I was anticipating: They just risked going on the other side of Cat Island in an attempt to catch Camper and Telefonica, that had nothing to lose, just went to the other side to see if it could get any gains.

On the map it showed more wind on the Groupama side but in reality there was more wind on Telefonica side and if Telefonica had not chosed wrongly, going too far away from land, it would have overtaken Groupama. As it is both boats are very close and there will be a fight till the end. Telefonica had showed that with weak to medium winds can go slightly faster than Groupama so it will be really interesting.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## bjung

*Re: Vor 70*



PCP said:


> Easy sailing till the finish line. Puma is going to win and deserve it. They never give a chance to Camper on all those hours of difficult navigation. Well done guys!!!


Looks like a done deal, but it isn't over yet. Theoretically Camper can still catch up. They would have to do roughly 3 kt more than Puma. Camper are doing around 1.7kt. (avg) more than Puma, right now actually 4kt. Who knows, if they navigate the Gulf Stream eddies to their advantage, that race could still be up for grabs. It isn't over until they pass the finish.....
A 40kt northerly would liven things up in the stream, but not today...


----------



## Faster

Here's an interesting look at the new Ker 50... not a cruising boat, to be sure, but what I find fascinating here is the very antithesis of the slab sided chined hulls from the likes of JPK and others of late....


----------



## PCP

*Two different types of hulls:*



Faster said:


> Here's an interesting look at the new Ker 50... not a cruising boat, to be sure, but what I find fascinating here is the very antithesis of the slab sided chined hulls from the likes of JPK and others of late....


Here you have three examples of the last boats designed by ker, the 46 still in project, the 40 and the 43:




























Yes you are right and the Ker are among the fastest if not the fastest boats of their size. But there is an easy explanation for the different type of hulls:

Ker designed boats are narrower and have about 50% of ballast ratio on a deep bulb. To take all advantage of the generated righting moment upwind the boat needs to heel a lot. The hulls are adapted for that and at the optimum heeling angle will have an almost flat surface on the water.

If you take a look at the photo you have posted (and the others) you will see that when the hull is all heeled the Ker will be going laterally over an almost flat surface that will provide a big hull righting moment. That will happens at an high heeling angle and it is its optimum sailing position upwind.

On a boat like the JPK or an Open 60 the proportion of ballast ratio is not so big, the boat can be lighter and upwind the importance of the ballast in the generated righting moment is not so important so the boat don't need to hell so much and the chines serves to limit the heeling to the optimal angle, that is remarkably less than on a Ker, and to provide there the same effect (maximized hull righting moment) that is obtained with the KER hull on the side over the water at an higher heel angle. I mean, the Open type boat will also be sailing over a flat surface at its optimum heel angle, but that angle is a lot smaller than the one on the Ker.

Upwind, the Ker design is more efficient but upwind it needs a good crew to maintain the boat on its tracks. While a solo type hull boat like the one on the Pogo 12.50 will limit (trough the chine) the heeling the boat can have going downwind (while rolling) to a small quantity a Ker will only have a hull brake to that limit at high angles of heel.

That's why it makes sense to use a hull with chines on a cruising boat (and the shape of hull it is associated with it) because it makes the boat much more easily controlled downwind, permitting the use of an autopilot even going fast and gives a boat that heels a lot less. And I am not talking only about performance boats, you can see this type of hull on most of the modern production cruisers.










That is also why this is the type the hull used on racing solo boats (more easy to exploit the boat). As I have said many times, a Ker will be overall faster than a racing solo type boat, but a solo racer will not be able to race a ker solo at least exploiting it in a way that can be faster than a dedicated solo racer.

Two ways of making fast boats, with advantages and disadvantages.

One of the disadvantages that I have not mentioned yet is price. I mean for a Ker type of boat, the huge righting moment generated by the big ballast on the end of a big draft puts huge strains on the hull, much more than if the same righting moment is obtained mostly through beam. That makes for a considerably more expensive boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vor*

And that's a fact: Puma won this leg while Groupama has managed to maintain Telefonica at some distance and I guess it will have no trouble making it to 3th place.

This way the overall classification is becoming more even and that only makes the race more interesting. It is also good for the sport that Puma won in America. Let's see if that helps sail ocean racing popularity in the USA.


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: JPK 38FC*



Mr W said:


> I have been looking at the Pogo 30 as well, I guess I have to wait until it´s finished. On the pictures it appears to lack cockpit backrests, which might be a safety concern with the kids. But they are nice boats, aren´t they!
> 
> I hope Eric will share some more experiences from the 12.50. I´d be really interested in how the boat performes in flat water and at what windspeeds it will start planing without the help of surfing.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Mr W


If any boat would collapse as quickly as any PC crashes, there would be no more boatyards. But since I much prefer a world without PC's than one without boats, I'm still very happy . Really sorry about the pictures and the video delay, I will post them as soon as I have a well configured and sufficiently performing PC again. And a good YouTube coach .

Checking out the JPK 38, I like it. Although they have now dismissed the swinging keel option and replaced it with twin keels, the fixed keel still being the standard configuration. 
This confirms my overall impression that the profile of this first JPK cruiser is more towards Malango and even RM than Pogo. With an "American style" longitudinal kitchen, more cosy interior design, panoramic roof windows, lower S/D ratio and less powerful hull, everything else also points this way.

If you're seeking a multihull-like performance and the advantages of a monohull, I'm afraid you will need both a Bénéteau Sense (catamaran feeling at anchor or in port) and a Pogo-like design (multihull feeling when sailing). Concerning speed almost any trimaran will fly by almost any comparable monohull, but concerning comfort the difference will be as huge in the other way.

Since you are looking for a compromise (aren't we all?) and you will be sailing mostly in light winds and calm seas, no need for any concern about flat bottoms, light displacements and/or large sails. On the contrary, you have the ideal conditions to fully enjoy this kind of boat design.

We don't, because our sailing area is the English Channel and the North Sea, where choppy seas and very variable wind conditions prevail. Nevertheless, we are very happy with the Pogo 12.50.

Of course it doesn't like to be sailed close hauled, but a little bearing down is sufficient to make everything quite comfortable and with a very correct VMG, even in strong wind-upon current conditions. 
The common statement that this kind of boats can not perform upwind is therefore very relative. What is lost in pointing will be made good in speed. As soon as we have finished calibrating all the instruments, I will document this with hard figures.

And, once again, anything from a close to a broad reach is very rewarding. 
With as little as 12 knots of true wind you can start playing the game: pointing a little to build up apparent wind speed, and then bearing down the minimum to hold on to a good apparent wind angle and keep on planing. 
With following 3m seas it was quite easy to surf above 20 knots. But the next weekend we were again in full planing mode, in comparable wind conditions and at a top speed of 18 knots. Without waves to surf on, since this time the swell was only 1m and coming ahead.

I agree with Paulo that this kind of sailing demands some feeling, both at the helm and at the traveller. Especially the big fat-headed mainsail is very sensible, but also very rewarding to trim. With a well-designed deck lay-out and high-spec hardware this is quite an easy job.

Although we are basically dinghy sailors, we don't think the 12.50 demands anything but good basic sailing skills. Even pushed, the boat never felt out of control and even in 40+ gusts everything always kept perfectly manageable. So I don't think she could not also be easily sailed short- or even single handed, although I prefer a little more training before trying this myself. But I certainly will do, knowing this is what Pogo's are basically designed for.

After trying the 10.50 for one week and now having the 12.50 for four weeks I once again agree with Paulo that both are very similar in character. The 12.50 is a cruising version of their latest open 40 class racer while the 10.50 has been specifically designed as a performance cruiser, so the 12.50 is somewhat more powerful. But let there be no doubt, the 10.50 is also a very exciting boat!

In my honest opinion, the difference is mainly about size, especially inside. More space, more headroom and most importantly a whole lot more capacity to carry the extra weight for all our cruising gear, without compromising performance too much because of a lot of extra available volume.

Otherwise the design is very similar, with a quite basic looking but in fact very practical interior for both the 10.50 and 12.50. "De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum" but in both cases it works very well. 
At least once you've accepted boats don't necessarily have to look like a Swiss chalet and that the absence of counter mouldings is in fact very handy for both cleaning and maintenance,

All these pro's and con's are evenly valuable for the forthcoming and much awaited Pogo 30 and I also refer to Paulo's recent post. His comments about boat design and architecture are always a delight.

So once again, it is all about compromises and making the right choices. 
For myself and after a first 800 NM in very different conditions, I have no more doubt about both the performance, comfort and security of this kind of boat. But "the proof of the pudding is in the eating", so first try for yourself!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Jpk 38*



EricKLYC said:


> ....
> Checking out the JPK 38, I like it. Although they have now dismissed the swinging keel option and replaced it with twin keels, the fixed keel still being the standard configuration.
> This confirms my overall impression that the profile of this first JPK cruiser is more towards Malango and even RM than Pogo. With an "American style" longitudinal kitchen, more cosy interior design, panoramic roof windows, lower S/D ratio and less powerful hull, everything else also points this way.


Hi Erick , I see that you are having a lot of fun with your boat. I envy you

Sure the JPK is a boat different from the Pogo, less a downwind boat but a better upwind boat. Yes, the interior space kind of remembers the RM and it has a more cozy and full of light interior, but take a look at the shape of the hull:



















If we were looking in 3d the difference would be bigger. The JPK is a much sharper boat with much finer entries.

The Pogo and the RM have about the same ballast ratio (about 0.33/0.34) one substantially smaller than the JPK one (0.38).

Different boats: the JPK has less beam but more ballast, a different balance.

It has not so much sail but because it has less beam it needs less sail for the same speed.

I agree with you that downwind or in a broad reach the Pogo will be faster even if it was not a bigger boat but upwind with waves I have my doubts. It is possible that the extra length can compensate the lesser efficiency but if both boats had the same size I am pretty sure the JPK would be faster.



EricKLYC said:


> We don't, because our sailing area is the English Channel and the North Sea, where choppy seas and very variable wind conditions prevail. &#8230;
> Of course it doesn't like to be sailed close hauled, but a little bearing down is sufficient to make everything quite comfortable and with a very correct VMG, even in strong wind-upon current conditions.
> The common statement that this kind of boats can not perform upwind is therefore very relative. What is lost in pointing will be made good in speed. As soon as we have finished calibrating all the instruments, I will document this with hard figures.


Yes, the Pogo is a fast boat even upwind but we have to put it in perspective: Downwind it is a very difficult boat to beat and to beat it with another boat of the same size you probably need a crew. Solo sailed it is the kind of hull shape that offers the best performance but it is convenient to remember that upwind in choppy seas not even a Pogo 40 class racer, that is lighter has more sail and liquid ballast, is a match for a top First 40 or a similar boat.

The evidence is there in the results of many races and I have been collecting it to understand better how different hull shapes perform in different conditions.



EricKLYC said:


> Since you are looking for a compromise (aren't we all?) and you will be sailing mostly in light winds and calm seas, no need for any concern about flat bottoms, light displacements and/or large sails. On the contrary, you have the ideal conditions to fully enjoy this kind of boat design.


Yes, I certainly agree with that.

I will point out that these boats to be fast have to have not much charge. A Pogo 30 to be fast will have to be light.

If you put a family inside with the water and provisions to cruise&#8230;well, I would say that it is a boat for two with a very Spartan way of live, at least to be sailed the way it is designed for. For a family and to go faster chose a bigger boat, a Pogo 10.50 or the JPK 38.

I would say that the JPK 38 is a better offshore boat but if you don't need it and are going to use it on the conditions that Erick described, maybe the Pogo 10.50 would be a more fun boat to sail. I would try both anyway.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

*Re: JPK 38FC*



EricKLYC said:


> Checking out the JPK 38, I like it. Although they have now dismissed the swinging keel option and replaced it with twin keels, the fixed keel still being the standard configuration.


The swing keel is a really good selling point for me. It allows me to find so many more places to moor the boat. I am a bit worried though. They say a swing keel is safer if you run aground. I see what they meen, since the keel will bounce backwards, reducing the loads. But there can surely also be forces sidewards when running aground. This is a bit of a concern for me, since there will be great forces on these rather deep keels. Also, we don´t have sand bottom. We have solid granite! 


> If you're seeking a multihull-like performance and the advantages of a monohull, I'm afraid you will need both a Bénéteau Sense (catamaran feeling at anchor or in port) and a Pogo-like design (multihull feeling when sailing). Concerning speed almost any trimaran will fly by almost any comparable monohull, but concerning comfort the difference will be as huge in the other way.


I´m not looking for a floating appartment , there has to be sufficient room for the four of us though. We usually spend the weekends on the boat during the summer and also 2-3 weeks vacation every summer. We don´t need to fill the boat with food and water for 3 weeks, we can stock up after a week. I think I can live with the spartan interior of the Pogos, it will be interesting to see any interior layouts on the Pogo 30. We have been looking at a Dragonfly 28 and that is a small boat for four, but I think we could manage. The new 32 will be somewhat bigger.


> Since you are looking for a compromise (aren't we all?) and you will be sailing mostly in light winds and calm seas, no need for any concern about flat bottoms, light displacements and/or large sails. On the contrary, you have the ideal conditions to fully enjoy this kind of boat design.


I´m glad to hear you think so!


> The common statement that this kind of boats can not perform upwind is therefore very relative. What is lost in pointing will be made good in speed. As soon as we have finished calibrating all the instruments, I will document this with hard figures.


Please do, it would be very interesting.


> With as little as 12 knots of true wind you can start playing the game: pointing a little to build up apparent wind speed, and then bearing down the minimum to hold on to a good apparent wind angle and keep on planing.


Do you use the big asy in these conditions?


> With following 3m seas it was quite easy to surf above 20 knots. But the next weekend we were again in full planing mode, in comparable wind conditions and at a top speed of 18 knots. Without waves to surf on, since this time the swell was only 1m and coming ahead.


What were the wind conditions? Must have been a nice breeze!


> Although we are basically dinghy sailors, we don't think the 12.50 demands anything but good basic sailing skills. Even pushed, the boat never felt out of control and even in 40+ gusts everything always kept perfectly manageable. So I don't think she could not also be easily sailed short- or even single handed, although I prefer a little more training before trying this myself. But I certainly will do, knowing this is what Pogo's are basically designed for.


Very nice to hear! My problem with sailing a trimaran is that in a strong breeze I would never push it with the family onboard. We have very gusty conditions due to a lot of islands and I try to keep sail area down (although they are pretty fast boats even with just main and jib). I never use the asy.
I would not hesitate to push a keelboat in a breeze. There would be no danger, other than a bit of heeling but that´s ok.


> After trying the 10.50 for one week and now having the 12.50 for four weeks I once again agree with Paulo that both are very similar in character. The 12.50 is a cruising version of their latest open 40 class racer while the 10.50 has been specifically designed as a performance cruiser, so the 12.50 is somewhat more powerful. But let there be no doubt, the 10.50 is also a very exciting boat!


Do you think the newer hullshape of the 12.50 is faster upwind than the 10.50? Someone pointed out that it gets a more efficent shape in the water/ less wetted surface than the older hullshape of the 10.50.

I really appreciate your input and of course Paulos´ as well. I will be looking to buy a boat probably next year when I have sold my motorboat (yeah, I know...)

//Mr W


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## HMoll

Paulo,

We have discussed stability quite thoroughly in this thread and now you touch an interesting topic for every performance cruiser: payload. Looking at the JPK, for example, there seems to be a lot of payload capacity left if the green line is the DWL. 

On my J35, for example, racing crew weight is 1650 lbs max, so I figured that with 2 adults and 2 kids, I have at least 1200 lbs of equipment and payload. It's resulted that my boat floats almost exactly on the waterline after I've added a lot of equipment and loaded to cruise. Boat no longer accelerates like it did, but it's very stable, manageable, and can keep its hull speed very well, even under motor. I wonder if it will still surf at 15 knots, maybe not, but I'm very happy with overall cruising performance.

Payload capacity would be a useful number if designers published it, and it is barely discussed. Some of these boats are very light, like JPK, Pogo, and RM, but I wonder how hull shapes manage payload design, or if all, like the Pogo, are meant to remain very light. I propose that these payload numbers could either prove these designs as groundbreaking, or useless for more that a backpack joyride.:laugher

As always, very interested on your thoughts!

Hans


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## PCP

*Types of boats.*

Regarding that search of information about the boat types and its performances one of the favorite places is the Transquadra. There are a large number of boats racing there, the sailors that race it are very Knowledgeable and they are above average sailors but not professional racers or high end Sport sailors. It is a solo or Duo race so the boats used are the ones that can go faster solo or duo sailed by not professional crews. Easy and fast boats on a mostly downwind race.

There are boats that never were chosen to make the race. That is just suspect but can be meaningless and of course it is to be expected a large majority of French made boats.

So, regarding absences I find odd the total absence of the new First 30, from the Elan 310 and 350, from the Pogo 10.50. Elan are not French boats but even so I find it strange. There are lot of Pogos doing that race but they are all 8.50, the model that the Pogo 30 is going to replace, but the results are not good. Never a Pogo 10.50 has made the race.

You can play it back and "see" the last race:

Transquadra 2011

Click on a boat and you will have the brand and model.

Regarding the First 30 it seems that the boat was just overrated. Yes, for cruising it is an interesting boat but for racing is eaten alive by the A31.

Regarding Impressive boats that can go very fast my favorite is the A31. It can go almost as fast as the A35, another great boat that is good in traditional racing and one of the usual winners on this race as off course all JPK models that when they are not winning are among the first places. The A35 is also an interesting performance cruiser with a nice interior. Another boat that is among the fastest is the Sunfast 3200 and that one is a model with already a lot of years, a great design ahead of its time.

All these boats are narrower and have more ballast ratio than the Pogo 8.50 that is a very light boat with lot's of sail, a very powerful boat.

Let's have a look at the hull shapes:

Pogo 8.50










JPK 10.10










A31










A35










Sunfast 3200










Of course this is only a bi-dimensional view but it is relevant in what concerns beam and overall shape.

Regarding the Pogo 10.50, last year one had made the ARC. I was hopping for that boat to go faster than most bigger boats. Well, I found the performance a lot worse than I was hopping for. Of course it could just be a bad sailor but normally the guys that buy Pogo are experienced sailors. One result is not enough, I will be looking for more.

...


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## PCP

*J125*

A good example of one of those boats that excels upwind and can go fast downwind but needs an experienced hand at the wheel and someone to take care of the sails. Difficult to see how you can leave this animal on autopilot, fast downwind, to go safely forward , to take care of the sail.


----------



## EricKLYC

Yes we do, Paulo. Let me know whenever you would be in the neighbourhood of Nieuwpoort and we will have fun together .

Finer entries are linked to better or at least more comfortable upwind performance. Although David Raison (what's in a name?) surprised almost everybody with his "scow" bowed mini TeamWork Evolution, which only dislikes oncoming waves but otherwise outperforms every other 6.50, even upwind. 
Look at the boat, can anyone understand how Ola could miss this huge opportunity to promote their Magnum ice-cream lolly by sponsoring David Raison ? But that's another story and probably out of thread.

Anyway, the bigger the boat, the easier it seems for the architect to give it a fine entry. This certainly has to do with internal volume, but I am sure there are many more good reasons why smaller boats have more bulky lines in the forward sections.

I 've seen VPP and VMG figures that suggest the Pogo 12.50 should even be able to keep up with a racer such as the X41 upwind (fastsailing.gr - The crazy polar diagrams - VMG at all angles - The yacht , Stunningly fast!).
When I look at our actual upwind GPS tracks on the screen, I find this very hard to believe. But as we learn, especially about trimming, we definitely make progress. Who knows, one day&#8230; As soon as we can collect reliable data and have made sensible comparisons on the water, I'll certainly let you know.

But as Paulo stated, even apart from handicap considerations (horrible for any Pogo, designed without any consideration for any handicap rule), racing results indicate we will very probably never be able to stand out in an upwind course.

Concerning B/D ratio, I think the draught should also be taken into consideration. There must be a big difference in righting moment, and thus in both security and power, between the same ballast weight in a 2m deep massive cast iron keel or in a 3m deep composite construction with all the weight in lead and in in the bottom section. As far as I know only Structures is offering this latter kind of build for cruisers and I understand they want to keep the details of this design for themselves.

On the other hand, the much lower centre of gravity will act even more like a pendulum which, together with the overall light weight design, should result in a less comfortable motion against waves. That's probably also why we should not try to sail close-hauled but concentrate upon keeping up both speed and power by bearing down a little.

I couldn't tell if the more modern design of the 12.50 performs better upwind than the 10.50. When sailing the 10.50 our upwind tracks were also quite lousy and the speed also quite exhilarating. I'm sure Structures will very honestly answer that question, Mr. W.

But I can assure you that a deep keel and a big beam do give you tremendous power. When we hit 18 knots without surfing but against a light swell, we had about 25 knots of TWS on a broad reach and only the (full) main + solent up. I don't think we will ever try the asymmetric spi or even the code 0 in these conditions, after all the 12.50 is only a cruiser.

Even so I wonder why the 8.50's did not do well in the Transquadra, while the 6.50's took the first eight places in the Transat 6.50, both mainly downwind races. And why nobody chose a 10.50 to compete. These are absolute facts I cannot explain but I'm confident Paulo will.

Weight is indeed a major issue on this kind of boats. That's why our son and most fanatic sailor Jim has been appointed as our "weight watcher". Being the youngest, he has the best chances to resist Mum's urge to fill up the boat with stuff we don't even use at home. And to persuade Dad to drag the dehumidifier and the folding bike back to the car bunk before we go out sailing. Or to keep a sharp look at the water tanks, since they must not be filled up as long as we can take a shower ashore. Kids&#8230; 

I personally feel very secure about the swinging keel, Mr. W. It will certainly much better absorb the loads when running aground than any fixed construction. The hydraulic overpressure valve will let it cant, instead of having the hull take the full impact. Be it on sand or on rocks, at speed you will need to repair the outer damage to the GRP (in fact it is GR vinylester) shell anyway. I have also no worry about lateral loads, since the keel is designed to sustain a quite huge righting moment. It is designed to bend, which it even does in normal sailing mode.

The space is big for a 40 footer, inside and outside, as you can expect with a 4.50m beam. At our little "housewarming" reception the main cabin hosted 17 of us, albeit sitting and standing in all possible and impossible places. This would have been much easier in the cockpit, if it weren't for the cold and heavy rainfall.
All the classic (and my opinion impractical) storage space beneath the bunks is taken up by water tanks or by foam to make the boat unsinkable, but this leaves sufficient stowage to completely overload the boat. The capacity of both the starboard technical/stowage/spare sleeping cabin and the cockpit locker is simply huge. 
Apart from headroom, the volume was the main reason why we chose for the 12.50 instead of the 10.50.

So Jim's job is absolutely essential to prevent us from loading and keep TriMen planing .


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Jpk 38*



PCP said:


> I will point out that these boats to be fast have to have not much charge. A Pogo 30 to be fast will have to be light.
> 
> If you put a family inside with the water and provisions to cruise&#8230;well, I would say that it is a boat for two with a very Spartan way of live, at least to be sailed the way it is designed for. For a family and to go faster chose a bigger boat, a Pogo 10.50 or the JPK 38.


I think you are absolutely right Paulo. We are used to keeping our boats lightly packed. Mostly though because of lack of storagespace We´ve owned a Dragonfly 800 SW Racing and a Seaon 96, both very exciting boats but very sensitive to overloading. We probably won´t carry more than we need if we buy a weight sensitive boat. All you need to satisfy the kids nowadays is an iPad...

I still find the Pogo 30 very appealing, I will definitely keep it on my short list. That´s also why I brought up the question to have one built in carbon fiber. Might save enough kg´s to go on vacation with the whole family and still be very fast!

//Mr W


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## Mr W

EricKLYC said:


> But I can assure you that a deep keel and a big beam do give you tremendous power. When we hit 18 knots without surfing but against a light swell, we had about 25 knots of TWS on a broad reach and only the (full) main + solent up.


Sweeeet!


----------



## Mr W

*Aspect 40*

I can share with you some information about a swedish boat, that probably isn´t to famous around Europe. This is acutally not a brand new design, the prototype was built in 2007 and I think the first production boat was launched 2009. It is a bit of a contrast to the Pogos I would say. Here is the Aspect 40:




































More info and pictures on Aspect40 (in swedish). Some quick specs:

Length	11,95 m
Beam 3,20 m
Depth 2,14 m
Weight	4,400 kg
Main 44 sqm
Jib 38 sqm
Code 0	88 sqm
A2 125 sqm

This is also a fast cruiser that I could consider. It´s a shame it doesn´t come with a swing keel though 

Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Aspect 40*

I did not knew that one and it should be a very fast boat specially upwind. They have some videos:











but that boat is the absolute opposite of Pogo With a beam of only 3.20m and almost half of its weight in ballast.

The boat weights only 4400kg and almost half is in ballast meaning that hull will only weights about 2000kg. That would be a boat that you would have to continually check to see if everything is all right, I mean the boat is built like a racer and not probably one of those racers that you can circumnavigate and forget about stress fatigue on the material.

I like the concept but not the boat design, not in the cabin, cockpit and specially not in the interior.

Among that type of boats, I mean narrow (but not as narrow) and fast my favorite is the Finnflyer 42. A bit different on the concept and less radical, also lots of ballast but much more form stability and the interior is just beautiful. I know, I was inside one and was really in love with the boat

On the Aspect 40 the boat has only one sailing position : deep heeled. That is not very comfortable for kids and certainly would make a difference from the trimarans you have owned in what respects sensations.

Have a look at the Finnflyer 42:






Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Trailer*

Nice trailer of a movie about the 2011 Fastnet.


----------



## Brent Swain

Too fine entries, combined with too wide sterns ,eliminates directional stability, and make a boat hard to control downwind. Such bad hull balance is a common curse on cruising boats.


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> Too fine entries, combined with too wide sterns ,eliminates directional stability, and make a boat hard to control downwind. Such bad hull balance is a common curse on cruising boats.


I don't understand what you mean. These two factors are not independent and have to be associated with a properly designed hull. Maybe you are talking about the design of old IOR boats that had a big beam at the middle of the boat and fine entries and small transoms. I tend to agree.

But I am talking about modern hull designed and boats with the beam brought aft. Regarding those you cannot have more directional stability than on an open 60 or a Class 40. That is one of the main design requirements on those boats and they are being perfected along 40 years.

Directional stability is fundamental to solo sailing where you leave the boat on autopilot even on the middle of a storm and keep tacing or have to go forward (leaving the boat on autopilot) with the boats going ant racing speeds.

Directional stability and a stable platform while sailing is probably the main reason those boats are so beamy. If speed was the only concern the boats would be more narrow, along the lines of VOR boats. And of course, those boats have fine entries.

Regards

Paulo


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## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> I am talking about modern hull designed and boats with the beam brought aft. Regarding those you cannot have more directional stability than on an open 60 or a Class 40. That is one of the main design requirements on those boats and they are being perfected along 40 years.
> 
> Directional stability and a stable platform while sailing is probably the main reason those boats are so beamy. If speed was the only concern the boats would be more narrow, along the lines of VOR boats. And of course, those boats have fine entries.


I could not agree more.

The 12.50 has quite fine entries, a disgraceful 4m50 and very aft beam, but an extraordinary directional stability with its twin rudders.

To illustrate this: we once started the autopilot at +10knots on a beam reach and it took us several minutes to realise the pilot piston was in fact disengaged from the steering mechanism (we do this on purpose when steering ourselves, to get more feeling at the helm). The boat was perfectly steering itself, as if it were a long keeler sailing upwind.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 12.50 - JPK 38*



EricKLYC said:


> Yes we do, Paulo. Let me know whenever you would be in the neighbourhood of Nieuwpoort and we will have fun together .


Yes, I would like to meet you and do that. Maybe next year on my cruising spring voyage (by car) I would do that. Anyway I love Flemish country and cities. I have also friends there.

First of all, to let things clear, not properly to you but to all, let me say that I love the Pogo design. That design is associated with proposing a boat with amazing performances at a price people can buy (at leat some). Other type of fast boats with more ballast ratio and more narrow are more expensive to build and also more difficult to sail near the limits, specially downwind.

That does not mean that the boat is perfect and has not weak points and strong points neither it is the best answer to all sailors or all sailing conditions, even considering speed alone.



EricKLYC said:


> ..
> I 've seen VPP and VMG figures that suggest the Pogo 12.50 should even be able to keep up with a racer such as the X41 upwind (fastsailing.gr - The crazy polar diagrams - VMG at all angles - The yacht , Stunningly fast!).
> When I look at our actual upwind GPS tracks on the screen, I find this very hard to believe. But as we learn, especially about trimming, we definitely make progress. Who knows, one day&#8230; As soon as we can collect reliable data and have made sensible comparisons on the water, I'll certainly let you know....
> 
> But as Paulo stated, even apart from handicap considerations (horrible for any Pogo, designed without any consideration for any handicap rule), racing results indicate we will very probably never be able to stand out in an upwind course.


Those polar consider flat water. The Pogo type design will not have a problem going fast upwind on flat water, even if a bit more off the wind.

The problem of those designs has to do with going fast upwind with waves.

The bigger the waves the worse is the performance. That has to do with wave drag that is increasing exponentially in that boat when crashing through waves, making it lose more power than the one the boat can generate over other type of boats. Of course the big power needed to go on those conditions and the big wave drag make also the boat very uncomfortable in that particular case.

I have saw that 40 class racers, that are a much more powerful boat than your Pogo, have not good performances when they got nasty weather upwind. On the last "around NZ race really nasty weather lead to the abandon of the Pogo 40 class racer that was having a bad performance, beaten even by narrow old boats, but that were really very bad conditions. Other boats with the same type of design also experienced difficulties and an overall bad performance. The guys on the Pogo were good, they are one of the main racing teams on that side of the world and the only one that races (for years) with a 40class boat on ocean races. It is the same team that had made several Sydney-Hobart with that boat.



EricKLYC said:


> Concerning B/D ratio, I think the draught should also be taken into consideration. There must be a big difference in righting moment, and thus in both security and power, between the same ballast weight in a 2m deep massive cast iron keel or in a 3m deep composite construction with all the weight in lead and in in the bottom section. As far as I know only Structures is offering this latter kind of build for cruisers and I understand they want to keep the details of this design for themselves.
> 
> On the other hand, the much lower centre of gravity will act even more like a pendulum which, together with the overall light weight design, should result in a less comfortable motion against waves. That's probably also why we should not try to sail close-hauled but concentrate upon keeping up both speed and power by bearing down a little.


Regarding this I have to disagree with you. A narrow foil with a torpedo has a better performance than your swing keel. It offers less drag (less surface) and it brings the CG lower.

Have a look at the picture on the JPK 38. The keel CG is marked on each one and you can see that is remarkably lower on the torpedo keel:










This is a similar keel to the one that you have in your boat. Highly efficient for a swing keel but not a match for a fixed top keel. That is why for the same ballast the Pogo has to have a bigger draft on the swing keel (kell down) than on the fixed keel.

Both boat with the fixed keel with about the same draft have the same ballast (1900kg) but the JPK is smaller and therefore lighter.

Regarding the weight of your boat, I would very much liked to see its "real" weight because I have some difficulty in believing in the 5500Kg that are given by the factory. The designer gives it more weight and I would still be waiting to see a boat that could be made with less weight than the one that is given by a designer like Finot. Normally the finished boat has more weight, not less.

I say this because the difference in weight between the JPK 38 and the Pogo 12.50, as stated by the factories is only 500kg. Being the ballast, the constructions techniques and materials the same I have some difficulty accepting that a substantially more beamy and several ft longer boat would have such a small difference. About a 1000kg difference should seam more natural to me, considering they are both top builders that use race boat technology.

Regarding that less comfortable motion against the waves due to a "pendulum effect" I believe you are wrong. When there are waves there is wind and the boat will be strongly "tied" to a side by the wind force and there is no wave that is going to make it roll from one side to the other. As I have explained the substantially bigger beam on the Pogo will make him less comfortable on waves due to a superior wave drag.

What you saying related with the pendulum effect can happen downwind but not in a boat like the JPK that has already a considerable beam and a lot of form stability. That would happen surely on the Aspect 40 if the crew is not on top of it and by crew I don't mean a single guy

That could be a problem on those racers (or very fast performance boats) narrow and with almost 50% of ballast on a very deep keel. As I have said already, that associated with the shape of the hull (that permits more heel before a greater hull stability) is the reason those boats are tricky to sail downwind. They can go very fast but they need a crew to balance perfectly the boat and not allow that rolling movement.

The JPK 38 has not only a considerable beam but also a hull shape that don't allow great angles of heel, like the Pogo. The JPK 38 is really a mix between the hull shape of a Pogo and that for instance of an A35, trying to get advantages from both sides. Off course it will not be as good downwind as a Pogo, but will be more comfortable and better upwind (taking into consideration the different sizes of the boats) or at least is how I see it.

Regards

Paulo


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## Mr W

*Re: Aspect 40*



PCP said:


> The boat weights only 4400kg and almost half is in ballast meaning that hull will only weights about 2000kg.


What makes this boat interesting to me is they have created a really light family cruising/racing boat, utilizing carbon fiber to a high extent, for example stanchions, toilet seat, mast and boom (of course!) and even the shrouds are carbon fiber (twice as strong as rod but only 1/5 of the weight!

Despite it's narrow hull, they say it starts planing in about 16 knots wind on flat water, with boat speed around 12-14 knots and close to 20 knots in 20-25 knots of wind. I don't know how stabile the boat is in these conditions. I will sail on my brothers boat in a regatta next week and I think there will be an Aspect 40 attending as well. I will try to speak to the owner of the boat to see what they say.

//Mr W


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## PCP

*Transat AG2R*

Nice images:






A bit more than two days to the finish and Morvan is really the king of the Figaro, at least in what regards Transats. Tabarly has made a great race but I don't think he can catch the King. I wonder why Morvan have never tried the vendee Globe?


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## PCP

Faster said:


> Here's an interesting look at the new Ker 50... not a cruising boat, to be sure, but what I find fascinating here is the very antithesis of the slab sided chined hulls from the likes of JPK and others of late....


Hei Faster, when you posted this I thought that was a some year's old 50, but you are right it is a brand new boat, but not a 50, it is a 51 ft boat, so new I did not knew about it.

Great boat and I bet it is a missile a winner among 50ft racers.

Like all Ker boats it has a big draft and a big ballast ratio in this case "only" more than 50%. The boat weights 6600kg and the ballast is 3575kg, at the end of solid steel machined foil with 3.75m.

Can you imagine the righting moment of that boat, considering it has a beam of 4.8m? To put things in perspective, the new 50ft cruiser from Pogo has a beam of 5.16m, so it is beamier, but 4.8m is a lot of beam on a 51ft and more than is usual on Ker boats.

For instance the beautiful Ker 53 has only 4.20. I have already posted about it. Take a look you are going to like it:

http://www.ker53.com/media/KER53_Brochure.pdf

So this new boat is really a beast of power, power from a huge ballast ratio and big draft, power from a beamy hull designed to heel and take advantage of all that ballast.

I want the see the racing results of this one. The boat is going to race the Round Gotland, Voile de St Tropez, Middle Sea Race and Sydney Hobart.

To make things more interesting the boat has an incredible big bowsprit for the geenaker and asymmetric spy, with 3.2m and a voluminous bow, to give buoyancy and make sure the boat will not go underwater under the power of that big asymmetric spinnaker.

Varuna, that is its name, was built in Germany. It is made of carbon and Nomex honeycomb and they used a unusual technique: For each part, each major component was made a CNC-machined mold. The components do not need to be laminated. They are glued together with a very precise fit with less material consumption and less weight.

What a boat!!!!! Thanks for calling my attention to it.
































































Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Jason Ker: Cruising boats*

Innovative architects like Ker that can make winning racers can also make winning cruisers and put to cruising service all that knowledge that makes their boats win, now used for a different purpose.

The fact that Ker is on the other side of the world for most builders does not help and he became a major architect because his boats were winning a lot. Just look at this list of victories and that with very few boats on the water:

Results | Ker Yacht Design

So even being faraway some European boat builders started to use their services. Curiously the first one was Southerly and Ker helped them to make a cruising boat different from all others and to make their cruising line, swinging keel and all, a truly contemporary line. The design has already some years but it looks like a new design. Beautiful boat:

http://www.northshore.co.uk/videos/2/iphone.mp4




























Then on his part of the world Sydney call him for the design of the 37 and the 43. Also beautiful boats. Here the 43GTS:



















And now it is Salona that seems to have made him its official designer. He has been collaborating in the design of the keels of previous hulls still used (35, 38 and 41) and has designed the new Salona 60:



















The Salona 60 is not a top performance boat, it is more intended for cruising and it is not a very light boat even so look at this Polar:










The boat can make with 4K wind 6.5K speed, with 6K wind 8.5K speed and with 10K wind 10K speed and that is a Polar in loaded condition

In 2 to 4 years he would probably be designing for them a new 45 and then the rest of the line. Ker adapts perfectly to the Salona philosophy : fast performance cruisers, not too beamy, not too narrow (by modern standards) and with a bit more ballast ratio than the French boats.

I cannot wait to see those boats

Regards

Paulo


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## Mr W

*Baby Celeste*

Hi Paulo,

Here is a new design, again swedish 

The Baby Celeste by Gabriel Heyman:


































Absolutely stunning if you ask me! Loa 9,25 m, Beam 2,28 m, Draft 2,00 m (lifting keel), light displacement 1,550 kg, ballast 650 kg, SA upwind 40,8 sqm, Asy 42 sqm. First boat will be built later this year. It´s a shame it doesn´t fill my needs

Mr W


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## PCP

*Baby Celeste*

What a baby

I agree, absolutely beautiful. Thanks for posting

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Vor*

Look at this score board:

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

A month before it seemed that Telefonica was untouchable and now it seems that Groupama, camper and Puma all all can aspire to victory. The results are so close that the in race results are very important.

For instance if Groupama stays ahead of Telefonica on the inshore race and win the next leg and Telefonica does not better than 3th, Groupama would lead. Even if Telefonica makes second on that leg, if Groupama win, the leadership will depend from inshore races.

It could not be more interesting since Groupama is only 11 points away from Telefonica, Camper only 4 points away from Groupama and Puma only 2 points away from Camper. An Inshore race is worth 6 points for the first and only 1 point for the last so....this is going to be interesting


----------



## PCP

*Re: Baby Celeste*



Mr W said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Here is a new design, again swedish
> 
> The Baby Celeste by Gabriel Heyman:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely stunning if you ask me! Loa 9,25 m, Beam 2,28 m, Draft 2,00 m (lifting keel), light displacement 1,550 kg, ballast 650 kg, SA upwind 40,8 sqm, Asy 42 sqm. First boat will be built later this year. It´s a shame it doesn´t fill my needs
> 
> Mr W


I was familiar with the work of Heyman through what is probably its most famous boat, The Fantasia 44, already posted on this thread. The Fantasia 44 was a much more traditionally designed boat (also a much older design) but it was just beautiful.

The Fantasia is a medium weight boat with a fin keel but one of considerable proportions.





































Once, one of the few built passed the night on anchor near my boat, in a Galicia Island and I had the opportunity to see that the boat is not only gorgeous on the photos.

I was already curious about boat design and performance and I waited for it to sail away to follow. It was a very light wind, probably 4 to 6K and my boat, a Bavaria 36 was pretty good on those conditions. Once on this conditions I pissed a guy with a brand new Jeanneau 50 DS, going substantially faster at least till the moment I was alongside and he turned the engine

I was expecting the Fantasia 44 not to move on those conditions but the boat was probably at leas as fast as that Jeanneau and that is remarkably good for such an heavy boat. I guess that the small beam, overall good design and substantial sail area has to do with it.

Unfortunately the boat is not made anymore, at least in a semi-custom basis. As all Swedish boats it was very expensive, in this case a lot more that a similar sized HR.

Most of the Heyman designs I know never passed the phase of beautiful designs. The boats were rather heavy and that has to do also with the keels that were quite "traditional", and required much more ballast to the same effect.

It comes as a surprise to see him making not only more modern designs but also having the boats built. We all win since his boats are quite beautiful. A man of impeccable taste.

I will post more soon.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Celeste Coupé*

I guess this is the bigger sister of that Baby Celeste and it is on the water. Also a beautiful boat with:

LOA 10,98 m 
DWL 10,08 m
Beam 3,40 m
Draft 1,84 m
Displacement 6,200 kg
Ballast 2,250 kg

SA (100%) 71,8 m²
SA (true) 80,4 m²
Engine 40 hp

D/L ratio 166
SA/D 21,7

This is a narrow boat even if not as narrow as the baby and is a more powerful boat, with almost the same ballast ratio and a lot more form stability, assuming the same type of keel. I prefer more this balance regarding beam and ballast. The boat is light and has lots of sail. This is not only a beautiful boat but also a disguised performance boat. Look how she sails:






Very nice..and unfortunately, I am sure, very expensive


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## PCP

*Transat AG2R*

Great images again






They are almost there, more 24 hours. Tabarly is nearer, at only 17Nm but I don't believe he can win that to Morvan in 24 hours.

Great fight for the last podium place between Jeanne and Paul.

Transat AG2R La Mondiale 2012


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Pogo 12.50 - JPK 38*



PHP:


First of all, to let things clear, not properly to you but to all, let me say that I love the Pogo design. That design is associated with proposing a boat with amazing performances at a price people can buy (at leat some:D). Other type of fast boats with more ballast ratio and more narrow are more expensive to build and also more difficult to sail near the limits, specially downwind.

That does not mean that the boat is perfect and has not weak points and strong points neither it is the best answer to all sailors or all sailing conditions, even considering speed alone.

No doubt, Paulo. If the boat has met most of our expectations so far, it's is only because of our own and very personal sailing ambitions. Or because we have not yet had enough experience with it 
But there's absolutely no way this kind of design will please every sailor. Different programs, different priorities, different tastes, that's what makes this thread so interesting to me 



PHP:


Those polar consider flat water. The Pogo type design will not have a problem going fast upwind on flat water, even if a bit more off the wind.

These VPP's and polars are indeed very theoretical. It seems clear to me that we will never be able to keep up with an X41 upwind, even in flat sea conditions. If we ever do, there will be champagne for everyone 



PHP:


The problem of those designs has to do with going fast upwind with waves.

The bigger the waves the worse is the performance. That has to do with wave drag that is increasing exponentially in that boat when crashing through waves, making it lose more power than the one the boat can generate over other type of boats. Of course the big power needed to go on those conditions and the big wave drag make also the boat very uncomfortable in that particular case.

Our very first experiences in strong wind-against-tide conditions tend to confirm this. It needs quite hard work at the helm to keep the boat comfortable. 
But we think we still have a lot to learn, about trimming as well as about steering, especially upwind. I'll be glad to post the data as soon as we have become sufficiently confident.



PHP:


I have saw that 40 class racers, that are a much more powerful boat than your Pogo, have not good performances when they got nasty weather upwind. On the last "around NZ race really nasty weather lead to the abandon of the Pogo 40 class racer that was having a bad performance, beaten even by narrow old boats, but that were really very bad conditions. Other boats with the same type of design also experienced difficulties and an overall bad performance. The guys on the Pogo were good, they are one of the main racing teams on that side of the world and the only one that races (for years) with a 40class boat on ocean races. It is the same team that had made several Sydney-Hobart with that boat.

These kinds of boats perform very differently in different kinds of races. No wonder, they are after all "open" designs resulting from so called "box rules". But I still cannot explain why the 8.50's performed so badly in the Transquadra and 10.50's didn't even compete, while the 6.50's keep on killing everybody in the Mini Transat, since both are mainly downwind races.



PHP:


Regarding this I have to disagree with you. A narrow foil with a torpedo has a better performance than your swing keel. It offers less drag (less surface) and it brings the CG lower.

Have a look at the picture on the JPK 38. The keel CG is marked on each one and you can see that is remarkably lower on the torpedo keel:

[IMG]http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy322/Paulo_Carvalho/Vega/hhh-1.jpg[/IMG]

This is a similar keel to the one that you have in your boat. Highly efficient for a swing keel but not a match for a fixed top keel. That is why for the same ballast the Pogo has to have a bigger draft on the swing keel (kell down) than on the fixed keel.

I fully agree that in order to achieve the same CG a swinging keel has to be deeper than a fixed T-keel and that the slimmer design will indeed result in a larger wet surface and therefore more drag. I only hope the higher aspect ratio will compensate this with less drift upwind.

The point I wanted to make is that a keel with a composite foil and a lead ballast (as Structure does with the canting keels) will perform better than exactly the same design made in cast iron (as most other builders do).

JPK also offered this kind of high-tech, high-aspect composite/lead swinging keel option, but they have now dismissed it. I wonder why, because the ability to switch from maximum performance to minimum draft in only minutes can be a very valuable option in high tide and often shoal sailing waters like ours.



PHP:


Regarding the weight of your boat, I would very much liked to see its "real" weight because I have some difficulty in believing in the 5500Kg that are given by the factory. The designer gives it more weight and I would still be waiting to see a boat that could be made with less weight than the one that is given by a designer like Finot. Normally the finished boat has more weight, not less.

I also wondered about these differences in given weight. Could this be because of different standards when considering weight and load (with our without certain items) between the architect and the builder, or are these measures always well defined ans standardised?

In my experience Structures has always been very honest with all their information. And I believe the infusion building technique results in much lesser weight differences than e.g. hand lay-up does.
But I will certainly inform you whenever I get the opportunity to weigh our boat. And of course only after our "weight watcher" Jim has removed all the completely useless gear Mum and Dad have accumulated 



PHP:


Regarding that less comfortable motion against the waves due to a "pendulum effect" I believe you are wrong. When there are waves there is wind and the boat will be strongly "tied" to a side by the wind force and there is no wave that is going to make it roll from one side to the other. As I have explained the substantially bigger beam on the Pogo will make him less comfortable on waves due to a superior wave drag.

What you saying related with the pendulum effect can happen downwind but not in a boat like the JPK that has already a considerable beam and a lot of form stability. That would happen surely on the Aspect 40 if the crew is not on top of it and by crew I don't mean a single guy;)

In any circumstances the boat has absolutely no tendency to roll, I can confirm that.
I only thought the 3m deep keel could induce more pitching when sailing upwind and against waves. I'm happy to hear this is no real issue, one more lesson learned Paulo!



PHP:


The JPK 38 has not only a considerable beam but also a hull shape that don't allow great angles of heel, like the Pogo. The JPK 38 is really a mix between the hull shape of a Pogo and that for instance of an A35, trying to get advantages from both sides. Off course it will not be as good downwind as a Pogo, but will be more comfortable and better upwind (taking into consideration the different sizes of the boats) or at least is how I see it;).

I fully agree that the JPK looks like a wonderful performance cruiser and that it will make many a sailor very happy. 
That could even include me, if only it hadn't an interior with so many doors  Although it's easier to replace doors by curtains than the other way 

Best regards,

Eric

P.S. My first try at "multi quoting", I obviously didn't get it all right...


----------



## Noordzee

Hi all,

Here some sailingshots of my brand new Salona 38. I bought it from the design drawings last summer. 

I've sailed some 300 miles so far and I must say the boat exceeds my expectations, by far. 

Easy to handle, responsive on the helm, great quality and interior and fast, fast!

Cheers, Eric


----------



## PCP

*Salona 38*



Noordzee said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Here some sailingshots of my brand new Salona 38. I bought it from the design drawings last summer.
> 
> I've sailed some 300 miles so far and I must say the boat exceeds my expectations, by far.
> 
> Easy to handle, responsive on the helm, great quality and interior and fast, fast!
> 
> Cheers, Eric


Hi, welcome to the sailnet and welcome to this thread. That is a coincidence...I mean your name: Are you Eric or are you sending cheers to Eric, the one that posted before you?

Beautiful boat eh! eh! I almost bought one. I give up not on account of the boat but because it was just a bit over my budget.

You say that bought it by the drawings last summer. Last summer I had already sailed the prototype

What keel do you have? What was your previous boat? Tell us more about the boat, particularly more details about that "fast, fast!".

The development of the Salona 38 was closely followed on this thread, I am very interested in what you have to say as well as several members, so please give us more details.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pogo 12.50 - JPK 38*



EricKLYC said:


> PHP:
> 
> 
> The problem of those designs has to do with going fast upwind with waves.
> 
> The bigger the waves the worse is the performance. That has to do with wave drag that is increasing exponentially in that boat when crashing through waves, making it lose more power than the one the boat can generate over other type of boats. Of course the big power needed to go on those conditions and the big wave drag make also the boat very uncomfortable in that particular case.
> 
> Our very first experiences in strong wind-against-tide conditions tend to confirm this. It needs quite hard work at the helm to keep the boat comfortable.


That type of boats has a big beam but has I have showed with some designs made by Finot the "footprint" of the boat, the wet area, is not bigger than on a narrow boat when the boat is sailing. It has even advantages because as it is a diagonal one it has a bigger LWL. The wet area has to do with weight and surface of keel and rudder and the Pogo is very well design in what concerns that and not only that

The problems going upwind with waves has to do with this:

When the boat passes a wave, the wet area increases as the wave passes through the hull, the bigger the wave more the hull boat will be "surrounded" by the wave and in this case the drag is not only that little footprint, but most of the hull surface and here that big beam and big overall hull surface represents a huge disadvantage regarding a narrow boat.

The narrow one will also be "surrounded" by the wave but because its hull surface is a lot smaller the wave drag will be a lot smaller.

Narrow boats, even with a big draft and lots of ballast will not manage to have the RM (Power) of an open type boat. What happens is that till a certain size of wave and sea condition the Open type of boat is capable of compensate its bigger wave draft with sheer power at the cost of a bigger pounding.

After a given sea condition and size and type of wave even all that extra power will not be able to compensate the increased wave drag and the narrow boat will go away with a much more softer ride, wasting less energy in its movement because the sea and waves offers much less resistance to its movement.

Of course that narrow boat will be much worse downwind because downwind you don't get wave drag and the flat and bigger hull makes less pressure over the water (not so deep in the water for the same weight) and helps the boat to surf sooner. The control of the boat is also better with less roll motion.

Racing boats or fast boats chose different types of compromises between those two contradictory requirements in what regards hull shape associated with the required ballast to each shape of hull. That has implications on the final weight of the boat and that has also to do with the boat performance.



EricKLYC said:


> PHP:
> 
> 
> I have saw that 40 class racers, that are a much more powerful boat than your Pogo, have not good performances when they got nasty weather upwind. On the last "around NZ race really nasty weather lead to the abandon of the Pogo 40 class racer that was having a bad performance, beaten even by narrow old boats, but that were really very bad conditions. Other boats with the same type of design also experienced difficulties and an overall bad performance. The guys on the Pogo were good, they are one of the main racing teams on that side of the world and the only one that races (for years) with a 40class boat on ocean races. It is the same team that had made several Sydney-Hobart with that boat.
> 
> These kinds of boats perform very differently in different kinds of races. No wonder, they are after all "open" designs resulting from so called "box rules". But I still cannot explain why the 8.50's performed so badly in the Transquadra and 10.50's didn't even compete, while the 6.50's keep on killing everybody in the Mini Transat, since both are mainly downwind races.


The racing Pogos are excellent boats that performs well racing. The Pogos on the mini category among the production boats were always winners and it is obvious that in what regards 6.5m boats that is the shape of hull that performs better solo on downwind races. I have to look better to see if they have some limitation regarding ballast, but I think we can assume that.

The hull shape that performs better is not a fixed equation it changes with length, becoming proportionality less beamy. It could have to do with that associated with the ballast differences a narrower hull will require for a competitive power (a bigger ballast ratio).

The answer is I don't know. First the hard facts and then an hypothesis to explain those facts. I am afraid here I am still looking and collecting the hard facts:

Even if that raises suspicion, a Pogo 10.50 never made the Transquadra and even if it had made I would only take conclusions on several boats, preferably sailed by top teams.

Last year an Opium 39 raced with not bad results, even was the first to arrive on Madeira among the ones that come from Barcelona (smaller number) but when they all raced together to Martinique the boat (or the crew) was not a match for the faster boats and smaller boats like the A31, JPK 10.10 and 9.6, Sunfast 32 and A35 that was the first to arrive.

Of course this has to do with short crew (solo or duo) good amateur sailing, on a downwind transat and I really need to have more boats of that type racing to reach a conclusion even if the fact that the Pogo 8.5 is not a contender on that race is an hard evidence.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Scuderia 50*

Another Italian beauty from Adria sail the ones that make the Brenta. The Brenta are more luxury fast boats that can occasionally race. These ones are performance cruisers that can do really well on the race track, kind of a GT Ferrari

The boat, designed by Felci, is beautiful and the interiors are not the ones of a racer but very nice cruising interiors.

It is a Carbon boat that weights only 8000kg and I am sure a good part of those kg are ballast in a torpedo keel.

Like most Italian boats it has a medium beam (4.25m) and a draft that can go from 2.4m to 3.7m (if used mostly for racing). With almost 150 sq m of sail this baby is a powerful contender and not only a very nice sail boat.


----------



## PCP

*A27 and A31*

Some new images of the new A27 sailing and also some of the also new MC 34 that he have talked about here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-225.html#post835284






and also some images of of its bigger brother, a great small offshore boat, the A31, a boat that can hit a big whale at speed and get away with it


----------



## PCP

*AG2R Transat*

They arrived. I have said that for the last podium place there would be a big fight, but I never suspected it would be so big: Jeanne et Veniard versus Paul et Fabien. On the last hours of the race they have changed position 4 times and almost over the line jeanne manage to overtake them one last and final time, the 5th time

For once first the images of that fight. The first boat on the Images is the one from Tabarly that was second, after together the Jeanne and Paul boats.






and of course "King" Morvan and Dalin winning the race:


----------



## PCP

*Re: Aspect 40*



Mr W said:


> I can share with you some information about a swedish boat, that probably isn´t to famous around Europe. This is acutally not a brand new design, the prototype was built in 2007 and I think the first production boat was launched 2009. It is a bit of a contrast to the Pogos I would say. Here is the Aspect 40:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> More info and pictures on Aspect40 (in swedish). Some quick specs:
> 
> Length	11,95 m
> Beam 3,20 m
> Depth 2,14 m
> Weight	4,400 kg
> Main 44 sqm
> Jib 38 sqm
> Code 0	88 sqm
> A2 125 sqm
> 
> This is also a fast cruiser that I could consider. It´s a shame it doesn´t come with a swing keel though
> 
> Mr W


I guess your are going to like this: The guys from Hamnen tested The Aspect 40 upwind against a 15 year old design, a boat that is a Pogo predecessor, in flat water with about 12K wind, this boat:










This is a Bergstrom & Ridder 38, also a Swedish boat and one well ahead of its time. The boat has a swing keel similar to the Pogo but the beam is more like the one on the JPK, in fact a bit less, with only 3.86m also with the beam brought back. This one has also water ballasts but they seem not have given them much use with this kind of wind.

Raven Gennaker - 3 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Well, in flat water the boat with old sails had a similar performance as the bigger Aspect 40. I guess things would be different with waves but downwind the B&R 38 would smoke the Aspect 40.

This confirms my opinion that the balance to very narrow boats only give them advantages on some particular cases and that a medium beamy boat is an overall better performer even in what concerns racing with a crew.

The movie:






Here the test description and some photos of the boat interior:

B&R 38 vs Aspect 40

Bob Perry said already back in 1997 about this boat:

*The new 38 is a visionary approach to cruising yacht design.*

Bergstrom & Ridder 38

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Noordzee

*Re: Salona 38*



PCP said:


> Hi, welcome to the sailnet and welcome to this thread. That is a coincidence...I mean your name: Are you Eric or are you sending cheers to Eric, the one that posted before you?
> 
> Beautiful boat eh! eh! I almost bought one. I give up not on account of the boat but because it was just a bit over my budget.
> 
> You say that bought it by the drawings last summer. Last summer I had already sailed the prototype
> 
> What keel do you have? What was your previous boat? Tell us more about the boat, particularly more details about that "fast, fast!".
> 
> The development of the Salona 38 was closely followed on this thread, I am very interested in what you have to say as well as several members, so please give us more details.


Hi Paolo,

Indeed my name is Eric. 

My previous boat was an Enter 360 (which was an newer version of the more know Diva 355/35). The 'main' reason for buying another ship was the need of 3 cabins. Having four kids and dutch weather made the old ship a small place for 6. Moreover the Enter has 2 cabins and no beds in the saloon.

I saw your report on the Salona 38. I bought the Salona the weekend of the launch by Dean Barker.

Initially I had my mind set on a Xp38, based upon the initial pricing of the Xp44 I had an idea of what the Xp38 should cost. All in all the price of a Xp38 is way too expensive. In my mind at least 50.000 euro.

What I really like about the Salona 38 is that the deck layout is great, the hardware (winches, block etc) of very good quality (all Harken). It is well build and the NX2 hardware is also nice to work with. The only minor point the size of the bathroom. (I saw the one on the Xp38, but that one makes the saloon very small).

Although after sailing 300 miles give me a very good feeling, in terms of true performance I still need to measure, some speeds, one thing that needs sorting out is the headsail 106% of which the clew was too low. What I like is that the boat is very responsive. For now I've reached 9.8 on 60 dgrs app. in 16 knots and 12.6 on 140 dgrs app in 20-24 knots wind in (relative) flat water.

The Salona 38 I've got had a 'standard' hull and rigg and keel. So Iron keel, no vacuum infusion hull, no rod rigging.

That was for two reasons, at some point, you run out of money, and I gonna use the boat for 98% for cruising. However I did opt for Pentex (grey) sails.

This weekend I'm gonna try the modified headsail and the gennaker.

Regards, Eric


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Aspect 40*



PCP said:


> I guess your are going to like this: The guys from Hamnen tested The Aspect 40 upwind against a 15 year old design, a boat that is a Pogo predecessor, in flat water with about 12K wind, this boat:


Now this is really creapy!  I was actually going to post about the B&R 38 a few days ago, but I just haven´t gotten around to post about it yet!

In the mid 90s this boat was way ahead of it´s time in many perspectives and has some similarities with some of the modern boats discussed here. The guy who owns this boat (which is the only one built) is Jimmy, who also owns Airbender, an Admiralty 30 which I think you posted a video of earlier (also video from hamnen). He bought the B&R for this season and has been upgrading it during the winter.

This boat is very fast, it weighs only 3,300kg (was actually supposed to weigh 2,600kg), so the Aspect 40 has 33% more weight.

They were keeping up with the Aspect during this test sail with about 7,5 knots boatspeed upwind. They also did some downwind sailing and they were doing about the same speed as the Aspect, up to 11 knots in these light conditions. I guess it´s fair to say that both boats are fast!

In the first regatta of the year last weekend, both these boats attended. The Aspect actually beat the B&R with 02h13m18s vs 02h22m24s (not corrected) (http://lss.a.se/bodySidor/04_kappseglingar/lidingoRunt/resultat_2012/resultat_klasser_2012.pdf, see start 6).

As for being as wide as the JPK (almost), that probably only applies to maximum beam. The B&R is only 2,26m at the waterline:









If I think of some more well designed swedish boats, I will try to post about them before you do 

Kind regards,
Mr W


----------



## PCP

*B&r 38*

Thanks for posting it. I did not found the boat dimensions I mean the ballast and weight. About the weight that's what I was talking about on the Pogo regarding the weight being less than the one preview by the NA: Very difficult and it would be about the first time or almost.

This is a very light boat even considering that is quite naked in the interior. This is more the weight of a racing boat than one of a performance cruiser and like any top racing boat it is the type of boat that has to be checked after each race. Considering the 3300kg the boat has a ballast ratio inferior to the Pogo and substantially inferior to the JPK one. I guess that is why it has and need water ballast for stronger winds.

Regarding what you say concerning the beam at waterline, that is what I was talking about referring to a boat "Footprint". That has nothing to do with Max beam but with the boat displacement. Obviously this one will be smaller because this boat weights substantially less than the JPK that weights more 2200kg. However it is good to remember that from those almost 1000kg are ballast.

The JPK will also have a narrow footprint (beam at water level) since it is a very light boat for a 38ft, I mean if we consider performance boats and not racers.

Regarding going downwind with 11K wind is to be expected similar results but with wind over 13/14 K I am pretty sure the B&R will be faster. With 11K the boats will not be able to plane. The B&R will need less wind than the Aspect 40 to plane, probably 2 or 3 knots less and that will make him much faster at that border.

With high winds the B&R will be more controllable and probably faster. As I have said the Aspect 40 will go faster upwind with waves. The race results in real time, assuming both boats are raced with the same level of competence, will depend on the wind and sea they get.

Off course we are talking about a 38ft boat against a 40ft boat : If the boats were the same size I am pretty sure the B&R would be faster and even like it is I still think that on most conditions the B&R will be faster however we will have to assume the same number of crew seating on the side of the boat, otherwise it will be kind of cheating.

I have said already that I think that it is time to have on IRC a penalty for the "dead weight" on the side of the boat. The rating of the boat should in my opinion be different depending on the crew number.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

*Re: B&r 38*



PCP said:


> This is a very light boat even considering that is quite naked in the interior.


Regarding interior, here´s what Jimmy says: "Since it is primarily a cruiser the boat is fully furnished, albeit in light sandwich, with berths in both the saloon, forward cabin and aft and three closets in addition to storage space under all berths. There are also sea berths in the saloon and aft to get good sleep for long passages. Galley is large with fridge, stove, oven, etc. Otherwise, the boat is furnished with a table (not a given in today's performance-oriented boats) as well as toilet and heater to make life more pleasant."



PCP said:


> Regarding going downwind with 11K wind is to be expected similar results but with wind over 13/14 K I am pretty sure the B&R will be faster. With 11K the boats will not be able to plane.


Actually wind speed was 12 knots, boat speed downwind was 11 knots. 



PCP said:


> I have said already that I think that it is time to have on IRC a penalty for the "dead weight" on the side of the boat. The rating of the boat should in my opinion be different depending on the crew number.


I couldn´t agree more. I would like to see that under the swedish handicap system as well.

It´s a shame only one boat was built, but it appears to have been a bit expensive at the time. Having a Marström carbon fiber mast, water ballast and 3m swing keel in the mid 90s on a cruising boat might be one explanation to why it was expensive... That rig is really something! 

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: B&R 38*

Hi Paulo,

While we´re talking about Bergström & Ridder designed boats, you might want to check out the Route 66:
ROUTE 66
and the B&R 23:
Torkel Båtar - B&R 23

//MrW


----------



## PCP

*Re: Salona 38*



Noordzee said:


> Hi Paolo,
> 
> Indeed my name is Eric.
> 
> My previous boat was an Enter 360 (which was an newer version of the more know Diva 355/35). The 'main' reason for buying another ship was the need of 3 cabins. Having four kids and dutch weather made the old ship a small place for 6. Moreover the Enter has 2 cabins and no beds in the saloon.
> 
> I saw your report on the Salona 38. I bought the Salona the weekend of the launch by Dean Barker.
> 
> Initially I had my mind set on a Xp38, based upon the initial pricing of the Xp44 I had an idea of what the Xp38 should cost. All in all the price of a Xp38 is way too expensive. In my mind at least 50.000 euro.
> 
> What I really like about the Salona 38 is that the deck layout is great, the hardware (winches, block etc) of very good quality (all Harken). It is well build and the NX2 hardware is also nice to work with. The only minor point the size of the bathroom. (I saw the one on the Xp38, but that one makes the saloon very small).
> 
> Although after sailing 300 miles give me a very good feeling, in terms of true performance I still need to measure, some speeds, one thing that needs sorting out is the headsail 106% of which the clew was too low. What I like is that the boat is very responsive. For now I've reached 9.8 on 60 dgrs app. in 16 knots and 12.6 on 140 dgrs app in 20-24 knots wind in (relative) flat water.
> 
> The Salona 38 I've got had a 'standard' hull and rigg and keel. So Iron keel, no vacuum infusion hull, no rod rigging.
> 
> That was for two reasons, at some point, you run out of money, and I gonna use the boat for 98% for cruising. However I did opt for Pentex (grey) sails.
> 
> This weekend I'm gonna try the modified headsail and the gennaker.
> 
> Regards, Eric


And mine is Paulo, not Paolo That is becoming a joke. I am Portuguese, that is the Italian way of saying it

Your boat really looks very nice and that sails are gorgeous.










Nice to know that this thread helped you to find a boat that you like and are satisfied with.

Regarding those speeds they seems good to me considering you are using a small 106% head sail downwind and that the boat is not the performance version. You mention also that there was no waves and that does not give any additional bonus in what regards surfing. I guess that also with 16K at 60º ap the boat can carry more sail than that 106% headsail so the 9.8K at 60º seems also good to me.

Even if those speeds are very good cruising speeds in any cruising 38ft I am sure you are going to do better specially with more adapted head sails for downwind sailing.

I tried the same boat Dean Barker tested some time before. It was a top specification boat with really top sails. There was almost no wind (2 to 4K) and we were sailing faster than the wind all time, making wind with the boat speed. I was quite impressed with the boat light wind capacities and we were not using a geenaker.

Keep us posted about your boat... and by the way, congratulations for a very nice boat. May you and your family enjoy many happy moments on it.

Fair winds

Paulo


----------



## Noordzee

Hi Paulo,

My sincere apologies for the Italian, won't happen again.

I remember now that we used the gennaker (a loaner, not mine) of the final stretch to our home port on delivery. We had about 6 knots of wind and we did 7-8 knots.










and indeed faster than the wind. 

Thanks very much for the congratulations. I am wondering did make a decision about which boat you wanted to buy? And if so, what did you choose?

(apologies if I missed that somewhere here in the tread)

Regards, Eric


----------



## motorcat

tnt34 13 knots in light with wind - top view -


----------



## PCP

Noordzee said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> My sincere apologies for the Italian, won't happen again.
> 
> I remember now that we used the gennaker (a loaner, not mine) of the final stretch to our home port on delivery. We had about 6 knots of wind and we did 7-8 knots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and indeed faster than the wind.
> 
> Thanks very much for the congratulations. I am wondering did make a decision about which boat you wanted to buy? And if so, what did you choose?
> 
> (apologies if I missed that somewhere here in the tread)
> 
> Regards, Eric


Hi Eric! The Salona 38 would have been the boat I would have chosen if my money had not come a bit short.

There was some story about not paying VAT that did not went well (nothing to do with Salona but with a change in the EC law) and in the end after all being agreed, including some mods that they utilized later on the 35 and I think also now on the 38, I had not the money for the top specification Salona I wanted and even a standard 38 would be stretching too much my budget.

I opted for an used boat, a boat that in its design principles is not far away from a Salona. It is also a substantially more expensive boat when new and I would never give the extra money for a new one comparing with a Salona, but I found one from 2007 in very good condition at a fair price, a bit less than what I was to pay for the Salona 38 I wanted, I mean, without VAT

The boat is a Comet 41. I have already posted about it and you can see it here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-225.html#post835284

I will only be the full owner of the boat at 18/6 and I will only be on the water a week later...but then I am going away for 4 months or so. I will leave this thread to the care of Mr G, Mr W, Chimbatete, Eric, Faster, Nemier and all that have been posting and enjoying this thread: I will be sailing and seldom will have internet so it is a bit like....I will be back in the winter

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Tnt 34*



motorcat said:


>


Motorcat, we all want to see that boat but not sailing slowly. He have already saw that. When you have a movie of that boat doing 18K or over please post it.

Why it is taking so much time. There are not decent wind around there?

Where is the TNT? That should be an explosive boat

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Noordzee

Hi Paulo,

The Comet 41 sure looks nice! and I see the resemblance on certain things, steel interiour frame, deep rudder, and overall lines of the hull. You'll have good fun and sailing on that one. Here in Holland we don't see too often a Comet. 

I'm curious of what mods you proposed. I know that Salona is very eager to learn from experienced sailors to improve on the product (In contradiction to yards as Beneteau and others). Also I liked their flexibility in exchanging things for others within the package. Like I really wanted the Raymarine E7 plotter and not the Garmin one. They even asked me if I wanted extra 12V outlets in cabins, etc. Really stunning. 

A four month trip! Wow, wish I had the time to do so. 

Cheers, Eric


----------



## PCP

Noordzee said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> The Comet 41 sure looks nice! and I see the resemblance on certain things, steel interiour frame, deep rudder, and overall lines of the hull. You'll have good fun and sailing on that one. Here in Holland we don't see too often a Comet.
> 
> I'm curious of what mods you proposed. I know that Salona is very eager to learn from experienced sailors to improve on the product (In contradiction to yards as Beneteau and others). Also I liked their flexibility in exchanging things for others within the package. Like I really wanted the Raymarine E7 plotter and not the Garmin one. They even asked me if I wanted extra 12V outlets in cabins, etc. Really stunning.
> 
> A four month trip! Wow, wish I had the time to do so.
> 
> Cheers, Eric


Yes, I wanted also that E7 also and not the standard version but one that would accept radar also. Not a problem with that or the other things. I talked directly with Nenad, the sales director that was more than eager to help and put me in contact with the design department for the more complicated things. I had posted already about that. I will make a resume:

About the Salona 38 and the modifications:

"I have been in contact with the guys from Salona for about a year, first about the 41 (that I charted for a week in the summer) and later about the 38. The 38 was released on the summer and I had the opportunity to sail the first boat in the water...

I loved it from the beginning and the boat has enough space for us, it is fast enough, easier to put and to take out of the marina and the sails are not as big as the ones on the 41, making an easier boat to sail solo, not to mention, a less expensive one.

Basically I had already decided it would be a Salona because between the affordable fast and light boats this is probably the stronger, with its stainless steel grid to take the keel and the shroud efforts and with with an optional all vinilester/epoxy hull. The boat has also waterproof bulkheads aft and at the bow, and because Salona is the only affordable production shipyard that will modify their boats to meet my needs in all that it is possible and that was really a lot

For example, I wanted a boat less pointed to cruising and racing, but more pointing to a fast cruising boat with offshore good qualities, a very stiff boat that could sail well upwind without having guys on the side.

Not that the boat has a bad stability. It has already a good Ballast/displacement ratio for this type of keel and draft and a comparative good one if compared with most cruising boats of this size, but I wanted more:
*
I wanted to substitute the keel they have in the boat by an heavier and better performance one, one that was not designed for the best results on handicap racing, but for pure performance and that without adding much weight would give me a more powerful boat, specially in bad weather with a better reserve stability and a better AVS.*

Well, it is done and at a price I do not found prohibitive.

*I wanted a nice pole for the geenaker. I have discussed with them several models and they have already showed the preliminary drawings to me: A carbon one, the type Grand Soleil and x yachts are using that incorporates the anchor and bow roller. A nice design.*

Done, and again at an affordable price.

*I did not like the stow away cockpit table that was heavy and not very stable (the same type as on the 41). I talked to them and they said that they were going to look at it.*

They have send me the designs: Nicely designed.

*I complained about the instruments that were, like all boats that are also used for race, too far away, over the cabin entry. They have showed to me the available pods in the market: All ugly. They have said they were going to look at it. They have sent me the preliminar drawings (I have posted them already), nicely designed and I have no doubts, they will be well made.*

*I could go on for a long time, from permanent jack lines to places to hook the harness passing by lateral handgrabs on the spraywood, to a removable textile stay, to a Spade instead of their standard anchor, to a custom transom pole to the radar and a special support to carry the dingy on the transom, the list would be long not to mention the many options they have to customize the boat.*

I guess they do that with clients that ask them things that actually can improve the boat, they do that to cruisers and they do that for racers too, but in this case in what regards pure performance and a faster and more competitive boat."

As you can see it was a lot of things. Many you can see already on the 35: The spy pole, the table, the instrument pods, the type of keel and probably also on the more recent 38, at least as options.






Others were too particular or expensive to make as options to a boat like the heavier keel (about 260/300kg more).

With that keel "my" boat would still be lighter than your boat, in fact it would use on a 2.25m keel the same ballast your's have on a 2.00m keel. It would be lighter some 300 to 400kg (epoxy hull) and would be a lot stiffer in medium to heavy winds being faster and able to carry more sail on those conditions. In fact the ballast ratio would be closer to the one on the Xp 38 or Grand Soleil 39, boats that have the name type of hulls. All that of course would come with a price making it more expensive but even so a lot less expensive than other boats with similar specifications.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nemier

PCP said:


> The boat is a Comet 41....
> 
> I will only be the full owner of the boat at 18/6 and I will only be on the water a week later...but then I am going away for 4 months or so....
> 
> I will be sailing and seldom will have internet so it is a bit like....I will be back in the winter
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hey Paulo!
You enjoy yourself this summer and enjoy the new boat!! You have done an outstanding job with this thread and have earned a decent break. Set your child free...:laugher
Come back with photos and stories of more gorgeous interesting boats.


----------



## PCP

*Atlantic cup race:*

Thanks Nemier

Now, I let this one pass unnoticed. Well, I was too busy following the the AG2R but this one is on your back yard, I mean considering that most of you are Americans:






These seems a very interesting race to me and that's the only one 40class race you have there. It is a duo crewed race with in port crewed races.

It started at eleven this month they have already finished the first leg and the second one will start in 2 days.
















The winner of the first leg was the best sailor...not an American, not a French but a German one and I say the best because some months back he won the 40 class Transat...now won the next race, this one. May not be the best but it is becoming pretty difficult to beat Riechers, alone or with a partner.

I will be following this one

Race | Atlantic Cup 2012


----------



## PCP

*New American boat: Motive 25*

That is a very nice sports and eventually weekend cruiser coastal cat, a very modern one and I bet an incredibly fast one.

We can say that the boat is almost a copy of the Swedish Seacart 26, but when the copy announces only about half the weight things become very interesting. Of course it is an all Carbon boat.

They have also a small sister with 15ft. The project as a hole seems very interesting and the factory is equipped with some expensive tools for really up-today boat building.

A very interesting boat. I hope the boat will be a success.


















































































They say about the boat:

*The Motive 25R is the first carbon fiber, production trimaran in its class. Sleek, modern and performance oriented, the Motive 25R is designed for spirited day sailing and in-shore racing. Fast and simple, the Motive 25R offers race performance in a stable, easy to sail package. Whether your goal is to win races, day sail with friends or serious fun camping and raiding adventures (R is for Raid!), the Motive 25R offers a unique mix of features that make it the ultimate performance daysailer.

The M25R's lightweight carbon fiber construction, outer hull rudders, and modern length to beam ratio allow you to easily fly the center hull, reach speeds of 20+ knots and still accommodate up to six people. A thrill which must be experienced to be believed!

By combining modern, race inspired hull design with a boomless mainsail, roller furling headsails and easy trailering, the Motive 25R maximizes time on the water and shatters the notion that "fast boats must be complex".*

PRINCIPLE DIMENSIONS

LENGTH OVERALL:
7.79 M
25.25 FT
BEAM:	6.48 M	21.25 FT
BEAM FOLDED:	2.54 M	8.33 FT
*DISPLACEMENT:	397 KG* 875 LBS
DRAFT CB UP:	0.15 M	0.50 FT
DRAFT CB DOWN:	1.37 M	4.50 FT
MAST LENGTH:	10.82 M	35.50 FT
MAINSAIL AREA:	22.11 M2	238 FT2
JIB AREA:	7.62 M2	82 FT2
SCREECHER AREA:	23.22 M2	250 FT2
AUX POWER (MAX):	5.00 HP	5.00 HP

397 kg to a sail area of about 30m2 upwind and a downwind sail area of more than 45m2 will make for an incredible sailing experience. I would like to try that one

...


----------



## PCP

*Atlantic cup race*

Some more nice images from the Atlantic Cup race. The Dragon race:


----------



## PCP

*Vor70*

Just to remember you guys that the Miami in port race is tomorrow 13.00 local time, 17.00 UTC and the race will be transmitted life on the Volvo site.


----------



## PCP

*Racing: ORCI*

Some good changes on ORCI: Due to the high number of boats on the next ORCI world championship, that will take place in Finland (they have already 128 entries and more are coming) they will Split the faster boats, or what was till here the faster boats (class A).

Now only really fast boats will be able to contend for the main title, preventing that some older and slower boat with a good rating could win the series.

*Competitors with a 2012 ORC GPH (General Purpose Handicap) rating of 614.9 sec/mile or less will race for the Class A World Championship title, and those with a 2012 GPH of greater than or equal to 615.0 sec/mi will race for the Class B World Championship title. At the current entry level of 128, this puts over 40 boats in Class A and over 80 boats in Class B - figures are not exact yet, as some teams listed their 2011 GPH figures in their entries.*

CLASS SPLIT & NEW FORMAT FOR 2012 ORCi WORLDS

This is going to permit the much desired change in the rules regarding handicap not penalizing excessively the faster boats, promoting lighter boats and more stiff boats, boats with bigger righting moment.

This is a push in the right direction, allowing the better and faster sailing boats to win the races and put the designers and boat builders doing better and faster sailing boats, not just boats for a rating.

I think that the true objective is this one: For winning a top race you should need a top boat and a top team, not just an average boat with a good rating and a good team.

Plenty of other ORC races to compete with older and less performant boats, at least for the top prize. ORCI should be really for the best at least if they want any credibility as a world title.

It seems to me these guys are going in the good direction

....


----------



## Melrna

*Re: Vor70*



PCP said:


> Just to remember you guys that the Miami in port race is tomorrow 13.00 local time, 17.00 UTC and the race will be transmitted life on the Volvo site.


I will out on the water and if anyone would like to join me let me know. It should be a fun day on the water. "GO PUMA!"


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Have fun Melrna...and good luck to Puma.

The complet report on the last leg. Great movie


----------



## PCP

*Dinghy sailing: Great sailing*

the Finn Gold Cup 2012:


----------



## PCP

*Traditional sailng: great sailing*

Bahamas traditional boats:


----------



## PCP

*Classic boats:*

Another beauty saved. 16m Old Ruby (62 years old) re-baptized as "Taifun" is now a school boat for the cadets of the German federal navy. Lucky guys

Schulschiff mit berühmter Vergangenheit - Yacht TV


----------



## PCP

Mr W said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> While we´re talking about Bergström & Ridder designed boats, you might want to check out the Route 66:
> ROUTE 66
> and the B&R 23:
> Torkel Båtar - B&R 23
> 
> //MrW


Nice boats but a bit dated especially the Route 66.

Regarding Nordic boats that are one that I love and never posted about, the Landmark 43, a Mark Mills design and a beautiful boat:














































http://www.landmarkyachts.com/Customers/landmarkyachts/documents/dokumenter/CL_43_202_DP.pdf

http://www.landmarkyachts.com/Customers/landmarkyachts/documents/dokumenter/CL_43_202_SP.pdf

*Mills says about the boat:

Mills Design Ltd. is very proud of the Landmark 43, our latest high performance IRC Cruiser/Racer. This design builds on our unparalleled experience with winning dual purpose IRC designs both custom and production to offer true performance cruising comfort and outstanding results on the racecourse.

This design reflects not only our devotion to high performance design, but also our aesthetic drive to create dynamic high performance yachts of stunning visual appeal.

The hull has been drawn to offer the highest performance across the widest set of conditions compatible with production yacht weight controls and suitable interior volume for a performance Cruiser/Racer&#8230;.

The waterline length has been set to extract some benefit from IRC's treatment of overhangs, particularly aft, without going to the extremes of a custom racing design. This ensures a good balance of performance with positive rating attributes. The other performance factors comprise a fine entry for performance in a chop, a narrow waterline beam for reduced frontal drag, and a stern section with a flat run but not overly beamy sections to provide controllable speed offwind without an undue rise in wetted surface area for consistent pace in lighter conditions.

To achieve our weight targets the hull, deck, and interior construction are foam cored epoxy/E-glass laminates. This makes use of the higher materials properties of an epoxy laminate including greater stiffness and resistance to blistering&#8230;

The loads generated by the deep keel and bulb however are best met with an anodized alloy keel grid which offers the stiffest solution to static loadings as well as the best force distribution for unusual dynamic loadings such as a grounding&#8230;

The bright interior with 3 double cabins and large galley and nav station trimmed with wood is as comfortable for an extended family cruise as it is for racing around the buoys. The spacious head with access both from the forward cabin and the saloon ensures complete amenity.

Attention has been paid to light and ventilation below with careful hatch and portlight placement. In addition to the main hatch and foredeck hatch there are twin small hatches over the head and forward cabin spaces, and a square hatch in the coachroof centrally over the saloon. In the aft cabins there are opening portlights in the cockpit seat fronts.
&#8230;
Sail handling has been arranged with a shorthanded sailing in mind, with all halyards leading back to the cockpit and features items such as the batten slider system on the main and the roller furling jib which have been included in a manner that has minimal impact on the racing performance of the design while improving the shorthanded utility of the sail plan.
...
This design represents the next generation of IRC Performance Cruiser Racers, and reflects our commitment to creating beautiful, fast, and reliable performance yachts.

Key Dimensions

LOA 13.10 m
LWL 11.26 m
Beam 3.83 m
Draft 2.80 m
Displ 7650 kg
Sail Area Upwind 109,5 m2
Sail Area Downwind 271,5 m
*

Some movies:


----------



## PCP

*Beneteau: Sense line versus Oceanis lne*

Yachting world has tested the Sense 55, the Oceanis 41, 45 qnd 48.






What they say in this movie confirms what French testers for French magazines had said, the Oceanis, particulatly the Finot/conq designed boats, sail better but the Vista 55 sails pretty well, without much heeling.

After reading the full test on the magazine I will post more about it, if they say more


----------



## PCP

*Solo non stop circumnavigation on a 40ft mass production boat:*

Tomasz Cichocky has finished without problems in 312 days its solo non-stop circumnavigation on a 40ft Delphia...and Jesus... not a word in English (except on the Delphia site) about that, not an English video on you tube...OK, I know the guy is Polish as the boat, but that is a pretty unusual feet taking in consideration that the "Captain" is an old salt, more than 50 year's old.

Well, it is done, sailnet is the first to report that in English. I wish to send congratulations to the Captain. Really that is a big seamanship feat, not only in what regards seaworthiness but also in what regards boat autonomy. It had been done before but very few have managed to do that on a mass production 40ft boat.

Chapeau to the Polish Captain and to Delphia.
















Yacht | Around The World Delphia Project

http://en.delphiayachts.pl/around-the-world-delphia-project

Cruise | Around The World Delphia Project

......


----------



## PCP

*Vor70*

*What a great race !!!*

One thing makes me wonder: Why Abu Dhabi has not yet won a leg and has bad results on Ocean sailing? Groupama obviously has a problem sailing with weak winds and is the better boat with strong winds, but Abu Dhabi seems to sail well with strong and weak winds and as already won several in port races, so why are they not competitive offshore?

*WE HAVE A RACE!!!* with Telefónica losing big time to Groupama and Camper and Puma winning over Telefónica and staying very close.

This race looks like it is going to be exciting till the finish


----------



## PCP

*Atlantic cup race*

And the Atlantic cup race is in on again. It's a 40class boat race for duo crews on the Atlantic North American shores. 4 American boats racing with French and a German boat.






Leg Two Tracking | Atlantic Cup 2012

...


----------



## PCP

*Atlantic cup race*

Impressive: A French boat leading....but 2th and 3rd are Americans.

It seems that those guys are learning fast

Leg Two Tracking | Atlantic Cup 2012


----------



## PCP

*Aventura 43 (and 28)*

Indigo yachts is one of the small French shipyards that makes very interesting boats at a fair price. We have talked already about the Kerkena 6.1 and 7.6, small sportive coastal cruising monohulls, but Indigo yacht was already well known before for their interesting sportive cruising coastal catamarans.

One of their best sellers was the Aventura 28, a small cat that was not fat like the other small cruising cats and offer a good interior, good sailing performance and a nice price (77 000€ with VAT paid).














































Then they made the Aventura 33...that I did not like. A bit like all the other fat cruising cats that I do not appreciate but now they propose the Aventura 43, an Offshore cat designed by Defline one of the most talented young French NAs.

The boat is not only very interesting, offering good sailing performances with a great interior space as it is also proposed at a good price for a non mass produced customized cat: 295 000€




































































































NA : Martin DEFLINE

LH : 13.20 m
Beam : 7.00 m 
Light weight : 8300 Kg
Weight at Max load : 12400 Kg 
Draft : 0.40 m
upwind sail: 99.3 m2
Spi Asy : 117.2 m2
Water : 600 L 
Fuel : 561 L

...

....


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vor70*



Melrna said:


> I will out on the water and if anyone would like to join me let me know. It should be a fun day on the water. "GO PUMA!"


I hope you had a great time. Puma started not well but made a great come back and that final overtake, almost over the line, was incredible. Are you really coming to Lisbon? I am making all efforts to be there to see the in Port race and surely would like to buy you a drink and meet you. I have a boat to buy in Italy some days later so it is going to be close, if possible.

So guys, 5 hours to the start of one of the most exciting legs. They are going up in direction of Azores and on this time of the year the chances are they will meet some testing conditions. I will hope so, not only for the images but because with weak winds like the ones on the last leg Groupama will not have any fair chance to fight for the lead.

Nice images on this prevision:


----------



## PCP

*Defline small boats:*

From Defline, the Designer of the Aventura 43, some small interesting boats:

The Aventura 20:






The Kerkena 7.6











The Heol 7.4


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

5 minutes to the start of the leg to Lisbon. Live here:

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

No wind on the start and no wind on the next 24 to 36 hours but then:

...

Despite a light start to the 3,590 nautical mile transatlantic leg, *gale force winds with gusts in excess of 45 knots await the fleet off shore, where Tropical Storm Alberto is lying in wait off the east coast of the United States.*

*.....
Read reckons the first 24 to 48 hours of racing will prove critical, and set up a scenario where the early leaders could escape.

"We're going to have south easterlies today and a little transition to get to the west and north westerlies around that little low up there," he said. "I think the first person through that transition will have a really great jump, so yeah, this first 24, 48 hours are really critical I think in this leg."

....

Leg 7 is expected to take around 11 days to complete.*


----------



## Melrna

Yesterday race and the start of leg 7 was interesting to say the least. Not much wind today for the start. Slow one. In the replay I can see my boat and I in the spectator fleet. Interesting that the power boaters outnumber the sailboaters 15:1 at least. They keep moving the marker buoys around so it was hard in the beginning to get a good spot without getting yelled at all the time. All I can say is go PUMA. Meet Ken Reed the other day and had a nice chat with him. Got him out of sail changing duties. Takes 6 guys to lift their sails on and off the boat. And these are big boys, Yummy! . Have pics but cannot seem to load them. I won't make Lisbon Paulo. Great city though. I was there about 3 years ago and almost meet up with Alex. Saw his boat there in the marina in Calais 
( I think I got that right).


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*



Melrna said:


> ... I won't make Lisbon Paulo. Great city though. I was there about 3 years ago and almost meet up with Alex. Saw his boat there in the marina in Calais
> ( I think I got that right).


Too bad. Thanks about Lisbon. I guess you mean Cascais: A small city on a bay and the place where the Tejo river meets the sea. That's the local where sail racing normally takes place. There is a marina there.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*VOR Transat*

First hand of this play is to Groupama or should I say Cammas since this was entirely a strategic play:

Groupama, alone chose a different course and it seems to me that he chose the right course. He is blasting away from all other boats doing over 20k and looking for big winds and stormy seas.

If they can keep the boat in one piece in 12 hours the difference for the second (Puma) would be much more than the 9K they have already. That is assuming that weather and wind information is true and it was not always the case on this race

*At its centre, Alberto holds gale-force winds of 35 knots but the teams will likely try to exploit the lesser, more favourable breeze further from the eye of the storm that could catapult them across the Atlantic.*

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

*Bandit 800 and 870*

Since we were talking about small interesting small cruising boats, these two versions of the same boat have certainly their place here: The 800, the older version and the 870 the newer one.

The boat is transportable, it is foldable and very seaworthy for its size. What a nice way for a couple to do coastal cruising and have fun sailing:

The 800:





Trimaran de croisière rapide Bandit 800 _por MULTIDO_





Le trimaran Bandit 800 C.N. Multid'o _por MULTIDO_

And the new one, the 2012 Bandit 870:


----------



## PCP

*Code 0 and Comfortina 39*

Very nice movie on Hamnen about the use of Code 0 for cruising. It is in Swedish but it is pretty much self explanatory.


----------



## PCP

*Re: VOR Transat*



PCP said:


> First hand of this play is to Groupama or should I say Cammas since this was entirely a strategic play:
> 
> Groupama, alone chose a different course and it seems to me that he chose the right course. He is blasting away from all other boats doing over 20k and looking for big winds and stormy seas.
> 
> If they can keep the boat in one piece in 12 hours the difference for the second (Puma) would be much more than the 9K they have already. That is assuming that weather and wind information is true and it was not always the case on this race
> 
> ...
> Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


Well, it is good to be right

Puma lost almost 20Nm on 6 hours to Groupama and is going to loss more on the next hours, I would say.

Unless the weather chart is not right I don't understand Puma strategy. The pack, after having hesitated followed Groupama course and it seems a better one than the one Puma is following.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## bjung

I must say, I really like the Comfortina 39. Looks like a nice offshore suitable interior, and the exterior is pleasantly non-euro styled. She even sports dorade vents. She also seems to sail well. I can only find a 2m draft version on their site. Do they offer a shoal keel option? How is the pricing compared to HR372 or Salona38?
As far as Puma goes, it seems they are staying close to the eastern wall of the Gulf Stream, maybe in the hopes of a favorable current, maybe they know something we don't....


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> I must say, I really like the Comfortina 39. Looks like a nice offshore suitable interior, and the exterior is pleasantly non-euro styled. She even sports dorade vents. She also seems to sail well. I can only find a 2m draft version on their site. Do they offer a shoal keel option? How is the pricing compared to HR372 or Salona38?
> As far as Puma goes, it seems they are staying close to the eastern wall of the Gulf Stream, maybe in the hopes of a favorable current, maybe they know something we don't....


I knew you would like this one. And you have reason to like it. They use to be at Dusseldorf and I can promise you that you are going to be impressed.

Regarding the keel this is a semi-custom boat and they probably can do a version with a smaller draft&#8230;but they are not going to like because they like fast boats.

Regarding price this boat in quality of interior finish is on the same league as the Halberg -Rassy. I can even say that I like more the interior of this boat.

The price is much nearer the one of a Rassy than the one of the Salona 38. The boat is a 39ft so it is possible that it will cost around the price of the HR 375. Last time I looked at the price, three years ago, it was around 226 000 euros. Off course, than you can join about 40 000 euros of extras and I would say that for us (with 20% VAT) it should cost a bit more than 300 000 €.

It would be slightly less expensive than a HR or a Malo of the same size.

.....

About the VOR I could say I hate to be right, but that would not be true.

Even Puma recognized it was on the wrong track because now is on the same course as Groupama, after losing more 10Nm. But they had taken the right option. If they had persisted on that course they would have been overtaken by Telefonica.

Now it is time for Puma to win some miles over Groupama on the night. After that Groupama is going to win again over Puma. The problem is that I think probably Telefonica is also going to win over Puma. Interesting

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

PCP said:


> Nice boats but a bit dated especially the Route 66.


Hi Paulo,

Yes indeed a bit outdated, but very futuristic for beeing an early 90s boat!

There were no Aspect 40 in this weekends regatta so I can´t share any info regarding performance, although the B&R 38 dropped by one night for a social visit!

We finished in 4th place after 4 days of racing with my brothers Arcona 340, a bit disappointing since we were in the lead after 3 days 

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Aventura 43 (and 28)*



PCP said:


> Then they made the Aventura 33...that I did not like. A bit like all the other fat cruising cats that I do not appreciate but now they propose the Aventura 43, an Offshore cat designed by Defline one of the most talented young French NAs.


I read a boat review of the Aventura 33 a year ago or so, and it apparently was not a very fast boat. Sure hope the new 43 is faster!

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Code 0 and Comfortina 39*



PCP said:


> The movie show also how well the Comfortina 39 sails in light winds. We have talked already about this German boat that is one of my preferred among the more traditional boats.


Paulo, the Comfortinas are actually swedish boats... 

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: Code 0 and Comfortina 39*



Mr W said:


> Paulo, the Comfortinas are actually swedish boats...
> 
> //Mr W


Well, you are right about that but...

The Comfortina will be built in Sweden, more specifically at the COMFORTBÅTAR AB in Gothenburg Kullavik close. The shipyard was founded in 1964 by Kennet Albinson and has rapidly developed into one of the leading yacht manufacturers in Scandinavia. ...

*We, the COMFORT-YACHTS Germany GmbH & Co KG have, since 1988 a significant influence on the construction of Comfortina series. *Direct contact with the boat builders, and our influence on the production and their quality means ... that we can meet your many of your wishes and ideas in the construction.

Fact is that you cannot even fin an internet page of the shipyard in Swedish (or at least I can't) and certainly the main page is a Deutsche one. I have talked about the boat with some German's and if they don't own the factory, at least they give that impression

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Mr W said:


> ...
> 
> We finished in 4th place after 4 days of racing with my brothers Arcona 340, a bit disappointing since we were in the lead after 3 days
> 
> //Mr W


Nice anyway. The Arcona 340 is a nice boat...a bit on the heavy side for racing but certainly a great performance cruiser.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

PCP said:


> ....
> Now it is time for Puma to win some miles over Groupama on the night. After that Groupama is going to win again over Puma. The problem is that I think probably Telefonica is also going to win over Puma. Interesting


Right again on both things. Puma won over Groupama but Telefónica won also over Puma and is on top of it.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

Telefonica should be able to gain some more miles over Puma and Puma will also won some few over Groupama and then things should stabilize and it will be time for another tactical move...and we never know who is not going to follow the pack, I mean Groupama.

Things have been interesting last night:

The Volvo Ocean Race fleet found themselves in survival mode battling their way out of the eye of a violent tropical storm overnight, suddenly caught in lightning and gale force headwinds.

They thought they were lining up for a quick, relatively easy first stage of Leg 7 - but Tropical Storm Alberto had other ideas, quickly changing direction and turning the downwind sailing of Day 1 into a survival situation sailing straight into 35 knots of gale-force winds.

Only leg leaders Groupama escaped, benefitting from an early gybe east, but for the five chasers it was a different matter altogether as Tropical Storm Alberto swallowed them up, raining down lightning bolts all round the fleet.

In his latest blog from Azzam, Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing skipper Ian Walker describes the chaos.

*"What a day," Walker said. "The whole fleet with the exception of Groupama were caught out when the tropical depression Alberta changed course and moved south east over the top of us. We were trying to ride the windshift and extra wind just to the south of it but a violent windshift headed us straight into the eye of the storm.

"There then followed a chaotic 12-hour period as we ended up on the wrong side of it beating upwind in 35 knots. All of a sudden instead of a fast ride east to the south of the storm we were right in it and in survival mode with three reefs and a heavy weather jib.

"We came off some terrible waves but most worrying of all was the lightning. The lightning was crashing all around right down to the water and it didn't seem possible our carbon mast could avoid a direct strike."
*


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Code 0 and Comfortina 39*



PCP said:


> Fact is that you cannot even fin an internet page of the shipyard in Swedish (or at least I can't) and certainly the main page is a Deutsche one. I have talked about the boat with some German's and if they don't own the factory, at least they give that impression


I think they only give that impression... Välkommen till Comfortbåtar 

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

PCP said:


> Nice anyway. The Arcona 340 is a nice boat...a bit on the heavy side for racing but certainly a great performance cruiser.


I must admit the boat is actually surprisingly fast for weighing this much. For example, we were only 25 seconds slower than a brand new Dufour 36E Performance (ok, not a light boat either) (see attached pic, sorry for low res!) pimped out with square top main, skippered by Anna Drougge (whitbread + volvo ocean race sailor and swedish match race champion). Total time for us was just over 11 hours during 4 days.

//Mr W


----------



## okyalos

Dear Sailors
I am glad to find this site since the information nested here are valuable. Although i thought i knew everything about yachting, i was pleasantly suprised to learn about yacht perfectly strange to Cyprus, such as JPK, Mylius, Heol,NM, and all the other gems.
I personally prefer racing and i am considering a 35-40 cruiser racer but decision is not foreseen to be easy


----------



## PCP

Mr W said:


> I must admit the boat is actually surprisingly fast for weighing this much. For example, we were only 25 seconds slower than a brand new Dufour 36E Performance (ok, not a light boat either) (see attached pic, sorry for low res!) pimped out with square top main, skippered by Anna Drougge (whitbread + volvo ocean race sailor and swedish match race champion). Total time for us was just over 11 hours during 4 days.
> 
> //Mr W


Yes, they said on the boat tests that the Dufour 36 performance was fast...well, I have my doubts. I think that a top specs Salona 35 will be way faster.

The important is having fun and it seems you have a lof of it

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

okyalos said:


> Dear Sailors
> I am glad to find this site since the information nested here are valuable. Although i thought i knew everything about yachting, i was pleasantly suprised to learn about yacht perfectly strange to Cyprus, such as JPK, Mylius, Heol,NM, and all the other gems.
> I personally prefer racing and i am considering a 35-40 cruiser racer but decision is not foreseen to be easy


Welcome on board

What boats are you considering and what type of racing are you considering: Around the cans, offshore, with crew, duo or solo?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

PCP said:


> The important is having fun and it seems you have a lof of it


Indeed we did, racing is (almost!) always fun! The boat suits my brothers needs very well I think, I on the other hand find it difficult to settle with displacement speed... 

I know you have posted about the SIG45, here is a new video:





Now that looks sweet!

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Sig 45 and Vor 70*

Great boat the Sig 45. Thanks for posting

Another great movie, this one from the VOR, showing that rough time I had already talked about:


----------



## okyalos

PCP said:


> Welcome on board
> 
> What boats are you considering and what type of racing are you considering: Around the cans, offshore, with crew, duo or solo?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I race around the cans and usually one extended regatta every year. We sail with crew but a short handed boat is really tempting since it can save you from considerable logistics issue. Last year i crewed on a SWAN 45 which had 12 crew, and it was a pain in the*** for the skipper to coordinate.
I like elan 350, however i did not understand the rational behind the placement of the mainsheet track.


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Sig 45 and Vor 70*



PCP said:


> Another great movie, this one from the VOR, showing that rough time I had already talked about:


Ok, that´s just not for me. I like warm and cosy! 

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Halberg Rassy 412: First images*

The boat does not look as modern as the 372 and that transom that looked badly designed to me, is really badly designed.

The 372 has the same problem but not so visible. Strangely the 412 looks more massif on the transom and on the last 1/3 of the boat. It's odd because a longer hull should contribute to make it a slimmer boat and that is not the case. Take a look, first the 412 then the 372:


















I am not talking about the hull that seems to be modern and efficient. The boat uses high tech sails and it looks to sail well. It seems that HR continues its progression towards faster and better sailing boats.

Looking from forward the boat looks just great:










But the guy at the wheel looks like it is in the bath room, you know doing what.










The wheel is pulled back on the cockpit to provide a big space forward and that would not be a problem if the cockpit was open, but like it is the space for the wheelsman is too small:



















The profile is typically Halberg-rassy, no ugly but a bit like if they wanted a aft cockpit boat to look like a center cockpit boat.



















I guess the inconditional traditional fans will be satisfied and the ones that hoped for a more modern boat a bit disapointed. Even so it is a good looking boat except when you look it from the back.


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350*



okyalos said:


> ...
> I like elan 350, however i did not understand the rational behind the placement of the mainsheet track.


What's wrong with it? It seems perfect for solo or duo racing:
















A rigging set-up that is perfect for solo sailing would not be good for crew racing and vice-versa.

Some top boats can rig it for the type of racing you want to do. For instance, the A35 that is as good solo racing as crew racing....with different rigging set-ups. The same with the JPK 10.10.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Classic boats: White wings*

Just look at this all girls team sailing White Wings on muscular conditions: beautiful boat, beautiful crew


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Great racing by Groupama, Telefonica and also by Abu Dhabi that is following Telefonica. It seems to me that Telefonica and Abu Dhabi, more to the North are in a better position. They all have to turn North the question would be when.

Only Camper has given up to follow Groupama lead and had already turned North. Don't think it is going to work.

Next 12 hours will be very interesting with several options, more to the South, more to the North, before going North. It has not only to do with wind pressure but also with wind direction. I hope we will see different strategies. Puma would be the one that would gain more in not follow Groupama since it as already lost 41 miles and needs to recover them.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

*Incredible stuff*

*The tanker was being led by a pilot boat, it warned the other﻿ vessels, it's restricted by its draft, it can't carry out any manoeuvres or stop. 
*


----------



## okyalos

*Re: Elan 350*



PCP said:


> What's wrong with it? It seems perfect for solo or duo racing:
> 
> A rigging set-up that is perfect for solo sailing would not be good for crew racing and vice-versa.
> 
> Some top boats can rig it for the type of racing you want to do. For instance, the A35 that is as good solo racing as crew racing....with different rigging set-ups. The same with the JPK 10.10.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

It's a lovely boat and it seems to be fast. However, the mainsheet track is placed at the right place, but i did not figure out why it's 20 cm above deck level. I saw the tracks of salona and they are perfectly fitted at deck level. It is quite possible to stick your foot in this track. Beyond this, it's a great boat. 
I have a question regarding solo or crew rigging. Does this actually exist? For instance, i saw azurre, another sexy boat which although it claims to be short handed it has runners which means another 2 crew for gybing.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Elan 350*



okyalos said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> ...
> I have a question regarding solo or crew rigging. Does this actually exist? For instance, i saw azurre, another sexy boat which although it claims to be short handed it has runners which means another 2 crew for gybing.


Hi!

I am not sure I understand your question but I will try to make everything clear:

A good rigging setup for solo sailing is not for sure a good setup for crew racing. The priorities are contradictory. For crew racing you want to have all the guys working on the sails well distributed with space for working. On solo sail you want to have everything near to your hand and near the wheel or tiler.

If the question is that some brands like Archambault, JPK or Pogo can put in your boat a rigging for solo or crew racing the answer is yes. They have plenty boats that are raced solo (on the transquadra) and have helped sailors to develop systems and rigging adapted to that and have the knowledge.

Some has that knowledge from the beginning: JPK was a solo racer.

On a Salona 35 I am sure you can improve the standard rigging for solo the difference is that for them you have to say what you want because they have experience with crew racing and cruising sailors but no experience with solo racers.

To give you an example, on Archambault they developed for solo racing a thing they call the satellite. The boat was a tiller and the satellite is on the center of the boat near your feet. All lines are brought there.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Brenta Super Star.*

The idea is an ambitious one: A boat to substitute on the Olympic series the old but great Star.

Well, the boat is beautiful and it is also a XXI century boat, canting keel and all.

Over the Star it has the big advantage of being a boat that can be used as a day sailor and carry passengers and off course, it will be a much faster boat, specially downwind.

Anyway it is a beautiful daysailor and I am sure it is an incredible boat to sail. It is a 33ft.


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

and I was right again, they went all North and also Telefonica was in a better position than Groupama and the Spanish managed to overtake the French, that are now at 10Nm. Great race by these two boats.

Now it is Telefonica that leads the way with Groupama following. These two boats seem to me in a better position and should won miles to everybody on the next 12 hours.

They will go North for some time and then they will go East again, circling the Açores anti-cyclone. The catch here is the time they will chose to turn right: If they will go more to the North they will get more wind and speed, if they cut first, they will have a shorter way and less speed.

The right choice will say who is going to pass Açores first: Telefonica ou Groupama.

This leg have been just great

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Obviously the weather information displayed is not correct. Telefonica and Groupama that on the weather map have the same wind pressure than the group to the west but a better wind angle are losing time.

Telefonica had done the right thing and changed course to East. If Groupama does not the same is going to be caught by Abu Dhabi and Puma. If they change course maybe they can get the wind we see ahead and go away....if the weather map is correct

If so we would have the situation I have described, Groupama and Telefonica will take the short cut and the others will be looking for more wind to the North.

Interesting

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

By the way, if you on the Volvo page click on "Lisbon, visit the race village" you will be misdirectioned. You will not see the race village, at least yet, but you will see this very nice movie and because it is really a nice movie I will post it here. Have a look:


----------



## LuLu.B

Hi,

very interesting what you writes about the Comet 41 s Sottovoce. The ship was also offered me. Now, I was told that COMAR had solved the problem. The entire hull was wet, or only the anchor box area? The seller told me that it was only on the anchor chain locker. What do you think of this.


----------



## PCP

LuLu.B said:


> Hi,
> 
> very interesting what you writes about the Comet 41 s Sottovoce. The ship was also offered me. Now, I was told that COMAR had solved the problem. The entire hull was wet, or only the anchor box area? The seller told me that it was only on the anchor chain locker. What do you think of this.


The world is small

No, the problem started on the anchor locker and it was by that place that the water entered on the core.

That was the entry place. Obviously the water was on the hull and not only on that place. They are selling the boat cheaply and if the boat is in fact repaired could be a good deal, however I know little about how to repair a boat with water on the core.

Ask on this forum. There are some boat builders and shipyard workers and lots of experienced people around.

If I was you I would talk or ask a Pericia to Luca Marziale. He works for Commar but also independently as a Perito Navale. His link to Comar puts him on a dubious position however I have a very good impression about him. He is very competent and I would say honest too.

I asked him a Pericia on Sottovoce and it was him that detected that the boat had an humid hull. Off course I also had done my homework and understood what he was saying to me and what that data mean regarding the hull.

Ask them exactly how the hull and the core was repaired ask for independent opinions regarding the effectiveness of that reparation and measure hull humidity.

It is a pity. Sottovoce with exception of that is in great condition and it is a beautiful boat.


















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vor 70*



PCP said:


> ...
> Telefonica had done the right thing and changed course to East. If Groupama does not the same is going to be caught by Abu Dhabi and Puma. If they change course maybe they can get the wind we see ahead and go away....if the weather map is correct....


Jesus what are they doing on Groupama!!! they could have a look at this thread. Like I had said, they maintained course .... Telefonica went away and the West group overtake them

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/racetracker/rdc.html


----------



## PCP

*Russians on the Caribbean*

Russians racing a Russian race on the Caribbean.


----------



## Mr W

*Film from Lidingö Runt*

Hi Paulo,

Here´s a short film from the regatta Lidingö Runt, showing some nice boats (among them Elan 350, Aspect 40, X-35, Dufour 36e Performance (Ecolution), Finnflyer 36 (Black Pearl), Seaon 96, First 36.7 (Arken Zoo), Mannerberg 38, Xp 38 and more)!






//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Halberg Rassy 412: First images*



PCP said:


> The boat uses high tech sails and it looks to sail well. It seems that HR continues its progression towards faster and better sailing boats.


It´s interesting to see the HRs´ and Najads´ evolving to more normal sailboats than just big, heavy motorsailors. My mother is on Orust today to pick up her new HR 310, ordered with small bowsprit, Asymetric spinnaker and code 0. Should be interesting to go for a ride on that boat! She sent me some pictures the other day, from the shipyard.

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Salona 35*

Some pictures of the new Salona 35 sailing:

























































Looks nice!

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: Salona 35*



Mr W said:


> Some pictures of the new Salona 35 sailing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks nice!
> 
> //Mr W


Yes, it looks a very well balanced sailboat. It seems that they have so many orders for it that they are not even very interested in promoting the boat. No publicity on magazines and not even photos on their website

For seeing the boat people have to rely on out side sources like this thread or Blur

Thanks for posting that and the Lidingo Runt movie Nice boats there. I will try to have a look to see if we can have comparative real time performances.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Halberg Rassy 412: First images*



Mr W said:


> It´s interesting to see the HRs´ and Najads´ evolving to more normal sailboats than just big, heavy motorsailors. My mother is on Orust today to pick up her new HR 310, ordered with small bowsprit, Asymetric spinnaker and code 0. Should be interesting to go for a ride on that boat! She sent me some pictures the other day, from the shipyard.
> 
> //Mr W


Hei, nice boat

Congratulations to your mother

Give us some impressions about the ride on that HR 310. I bet the boat even if not with performance cruiser performance will sail rather well.

I do really think that it is a very nice boat. Pity the price a bit too high for most of the sailors.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Salona 35*



PCP said:


> For seeing the boat people have to rely on out side sources like this thread or Blur


Indeed!



PCP said:


> Thanks for posting that and the Lidingo Runt movie Nice boats there. I will try to have a look to see if we can have comparative real time performances.


Lidingö runt 2012 offered very shifty and light conditions and I am not so sure the real time performances will be rightous to the boats. Might be useful though to compare boats in the same start. IIRC the wind was stronger during the early starts. What is really cool though is that a Nacra 20 was only 9 seconds behind the Marström M32 on elapsed time (same start group I think)!

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Halberg Rassy 412: First images*



PCP said:


> Give us some impressions about the ride on that HR 310. I bet the boat even if not with performance cruiser performance will sail rather well.


I will! They will cruise from Orust, around the south of Sweden and then up to Stockholm during the next 6 weeks, but when they arrive I will try to get a ride.

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Vor70*

Super interesting, like a chess play

It seems to me I was wrong about Camper. That move North was a big gamble but they sure new what they were trying to do and it worked out. He is where Telefonica would like to be . Telefonica failed for just some few hours its move and they did not reach the wind they were trying to catch but he seems they are going out of trouble in some few hours.

But Camper is better positioned and will be going to win over Telefonica on the next hours.

The gamble I was talking about regarding two possible different courses is on: Only Telefonica and Camper will risk the shorter route (with less wind). All the others are going North to get more wind.

I still think the shorter is the best option...but more risky.

Ir will be interesting to see who is right and who will pass the anti-cyclone first. That will be half way to victory. This is the more tricky part of the race, the one they can win or lose big time.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

*Re: Salona 35*



Mr W said:


> Indeed!
> 
> Lidingö runt 2012 offered very shifty and light conditions and I am not so sure the real time performances will be rightous to the boats. Might be useful though to compare boats in the same start. IIRC the wind was stronger during the early starts. What is really cool though is that a Nacra 20 was only 9 seconds behind the Marström M32 on elapsed time (same start group I think)!
> 
> //Mr W


Yes, I see what you mean, different time starts and I guess also very different racing performances by the crews. Huge differences in apparently similar boats. well, a fast boat can be badly sailed but a fast boat even with a very good crew cannot go faster than what is physically possible and that at least give us some information.

Anyway that is good only for light wind and no waves conditions. That should give an advantage to the lighter boats and that makes even more noticeable the time of the XP 38 that would be much more at ease with more muscular conditions:

Xp 38 - 02:05:54, faster than two IMX 40 - 02:07:04 and 02:07:40, leaving behind an Arcona 460 - 02:10:30, a Arcona 400 - 02:14:25, a First 40.7 - 02:13:08 and a Salona 37 - 02:15:53.

These guys were competing in ORCI and I assume they were between the best teams.

Yes, the times of some trimarans that departed only 10 minutes later were very good, with special mention to the Nacra F20 Carbon - 01:26:50 and the Seacart 30 - 01:41:16.

The Super Maxy 100ft racer that was the first boat on the water and supposedly the faster was beaten in real time by the little Nacra 20 by a considerable margin I guess that the guys on that big racer should thank the race organization not having the little boat racing along whith them. It would be embarrassing 

But when we have a look to the time of cruising trimarans the story is different: a cruising Dragonfly 35 on its faster version (Extreme) only managed 02:31:00, a worse result than the one of a Salona 37 that has much more interior space. I guess that with more wind the story would be different. I guess that for trimarans even more than in monohulls weight is paramount to performance.

As I have said the Xp-38 or the Salona 37 are not light boats if we take as measure top cruiser racers, more used to race than to cruise and the performance was remarkable on this light wind conditions.

I will have a look at some other boats later. If you feel like please comment or add what you like.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Dazcats*

Most catamarans today are fat, slow and have lot's of interior space...but not all. I like the ones that are not fat and are fast.

I like Dazcats:


----------



## PCP

*Europe warm up: Last test before the Vendee Globe*

Groupe Bell, very nice boat. Arriving at Cascais in 6th place. This one going to be one of the main contenders on the Vendee Globe, with Kito de Pavant.






Here, the same boat last year duo sailed going fast:






The race:

http://www.europa-warmup.com/?mode=course






The first leg of the race (Barcelona - Lisboa) was won by Virbac -Paprec with its usual skipper Jean-Pierre Dick that is without any doubt one of the favorites for the vendee.

In second the kid and one that I think is going to be one of the main world sailors, François Gabart with Macif. In third, PRB with Vincent Riou. The 3 first boats arrived very close after many miles racing. That seems a good sign for the Vendee






The first leg:


----------



## nemier

*Re: Dazcats*



PCP said:


> Most catamarans today are fat, slow and have lot's of interior space...but not all. I like the ones that are not fat and are fast.
> 
> I like Dazcats:


Hi Paulo,
I like Dazcats too.
But the Cat that really caught my attention last year when I was looking at Cats & Tri's - was the SCAPE 39 Sport Cruiser. Built in SA. Check it out.

39 Foot Sport Cruiser Catamaran

..sorry, I don't have a clue how to post photos


----------



## PCP

*Scape 39*



nemier said:


> Hi Paulo,
> I like Dazcats too.
> But the Cat that really caught my attention last year when I was looking at Cats & Tri's - was the SCAPE 39 Sport Cruiser. Built in SA. Check it out.
> 
> 39 Foot Sport Cruiser Catamaran
> 
> ..sorry, I don't have a clue how to post photos


That's an interesting one and also a very fast one...but with a very small interior. I guess that the Dazcat offers a better compromise in what regards cruising, at least with the family.

Now for a couple...that is an interesting boat but then you lose the advantage cats have over trimarans (interior space). For the same interior space (and price) I would always prefer a trimaran over a cat






take a look at this trimaran:

http://framsblog.wordpress.com/

http://www.fram.nl/

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

That has been a hell of a race. They have changed course plenty times and the moves are quite unpredictable. Just play back the race the last 36 hours and see that weird dance of changing courses. Right now they are all on the anti-cyclone zone and without no wind making ridiculous low speeds.

The first boats that got wind will gain many miles.

It seems to me that would be Abu Dhabi (that seems they have a really advantage) and Telefonica that will be able to recover some of the miles they have lost over the other boats or even overtake them.

Just some hours for them to pick that wind

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Salona 35*



PCP said:


> Anyway that is good only for light wind and no waves conditions. That should give an advantage to the lighter boats and that makes even more noticeable the time of the XP 38 that would be much more at ease with more muscular conditions:
> 
> Xp 38 - 02:05:54, faster than two IMX 40 - 02:07:04 and 02:07:40, leaving behind an Arcona 460 - 02:10:30, a Arcona 400 - 02:14:25, a First 40.7 - 02:13:08 and a Salona 37 - 02:15:53.
> 
> These guys were competing in ORCI and I assume they were between the best teams.


I can't say for sure what the reasons were for the good performances of this boat but I can think of a few possible reasons; the Xp 38 is new with new sails which is allways a good thing; it's an advantage to have a high rig in this area which is very close to land (many were probably of the same height in this start group but the First 36.7, Dufour 34 and X-332s, which were the smaller boats in this start, came in last); in these light and shifty conditions it might actually be good to have a heavy boat since they will drift through areas where there is no wind at all.



PCP said:


> Yes, the times of some trimarans that departed only 10 minutes later were very good, with special mention to the Nacra F20 Carbon - 01:26:50 and the Seacart 30 - 01:41:16.
> 
> The Super Maxy 100ft racer that was the first boat on the water and supposedly the faster was beaten in real time by the little Nacra 20 by a considerable margin I guess that the guys on that big racer should thank the race organization not having the little boat racing along whith them. It would be embarrassing


The super maxi should actually, according to the Srs rating, be just slightly faster than the Nacra and significantly slower than the M32 and Seacart. It sure would have been fun to have the Nacra and the maxi in the same start group  A reason for the results in the multihull division might be that the Nacra and M32 are light and fast enough to fly a hull and be very fast in these light conditions. The Corsair 36 (which btw lost its mast during the regatta I attended last weekend) is quite heavy (3,7T) and have a relatively high rig in this start field, which might have been good for them. The Dragonfly 28 (3rd place), Corsair 31 (6th place), Dragonfly 25 (7th place) and Corsair 27 (8th place) are allways in top positions, so good skippers I assume.



PCP said:


> But when we have a look to the time of cruising trimarans the story is different: a cruising Dragonfly 35 on its faster version (Extreme) only managed 02:31:00, a worse result than the one of a Salona 37 that has much more interior space. I guess that with more wind the story would be different. I guess that for trimarans even more than in monohulls weight is paramount to performance.


I saw a picture of the Dragonfly 35 in this race with the asy hoisted with the sheet corner (what is the word for that?) forward on the bow pole, so I guess they don't really know what they are doing

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Dazcats*



PCP said:


> Most catamarans today are fat, slow and have lot's of interior space...but not all. I like the ones that are not fat and are fast.
> 
> I like Dazcats:


I really like the concept of the Dazcats as well, though I'm not to fond of the design. I like the more modern design of the southern ocean 47. They claim that the Dazcat 10 used to be their bestseller, so I think it's a shame that they haven't made a new design of this size. They do seem to be fast boats in a breeze

Have you seen the new Broadblue Rapier 550, designed by Darren Newton (Dazcat) and Nic Bailey? Now that looks promising :

Rapier550 | BROADBLUE | The World's Finest Catamarans

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Europe warm up: Last test before the Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Groupe Bell, very nice boat. Arriving at Cascais in 6th place. This one going to be one of the main contenders on the Vendee Globe, with Kito de Pavant.
> 
> Here, the same boat last year duo sailed going fast:


That is brutal sailing! I can see myself in a Pogo 12.50 on vacation with my family going fast just like that! :laugher

//Mr W


----------



## wopalx

The XP-38 seems to be doing well in europe, and we are enjoying ours.

The Kiel Yacht Clkub Regatta, in both light and heavy conditions they came second in their division, despite poor crew work / errors.

Maior Regatta 2012

In the Lidingö Runt, as already mentioned the XP-38 did well in very light conditions so that is promising.

We've had a mixture of no wind to 35knts in the series we are doing currently, not being profession sailors so learning the new boat but each week we are getting faster so I'm sure at some stage we will get a win.

Certainly the handicapper favors our chances as we give time to some quicker boats (Ringle 39 for instance) even a new X50 only starts a few mins after us


----------



## PCP

*Broadblue 550 and Maursaudon B525*

The Broadblue Rapier 550 is interesting but it is a luxury cat. Sure it would be relatively fast but would not have the same kind of performance as the Dazcats (taken into consideration its size). 
You can see that the Rapier 550 is relatively narrow for a performance cat and that interior has to be heavy. But nice concept no doubt, even in what concerns the interior&#8230;.and anyway I am sure it will be very fast for the kind of luxury it offers.




























If we want to find on that size a cat comparable in performance with the Dazcat, or even faster I would point out to the new Maursaudon B525.

I had not posted about it because those guys are able to make some of the fastest and more beautiful monohulls around (racing and cruising) but are unable to post on their site decent pictures.

I have seen other pictures (not on the internet) and I can tell you that the boat is beautiful. These pictures are just too bad and don't make justice to this cat .




























Marsaudon Composites - Chantier Naval - Lorient

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Huge storm on the way. In 2 days in a half it would be here:










I hope the storm will come this way and at this speed, that would give them just the time to get out of the way. An alteration of course or speed can have some worrying consequences. This is a force 11 storm


----------



## PCP

What happens when this guy:






Comes talk with JPK saying that the Figaro (the boat he is sailing above) is a bit dated and wants to race in a faster boat?

Well JPK and Corentin had a talk with designers Guillaume Verdier and Axel Beaufort and the result is this baby:




























The same size (35ft), canting keel, 3000kg, with water ballasts ( 2x 350L), beamy but not too beamy (3.80m) and a huge pole for an asymmetric spinnaker. The boat has a big draft (2.75m) and even if they don't say I would bet on a substantial ballast ratio.

Of course, it is an all Carbon boat.

Jesus what a boat!!! I guess the old Figaro is really needing a worthy successor.

They are waiting to have five commands to start the production of this one series boat. They talk about 250 000€ for each boat. It does not seem much for a Carbon beast like this one, canting keel, water ballast, carbon and all


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

FANTASTIC!!!! After all those different moves, with the exception of Ian Walker and Abu Dhabi that is the big winner of the half race, all the others are quite close.

Puma is a bit better positioned and has some advantage over the others but nothing that could not be recovered in a day or two.

Ahead lay interesting options. It seem to me that a North route can pay off now but I am not sure that in a day or two it would not be better staying more to the South.

Anyway, the big and final gamble will happen after Açores where they will meet again weak winds and two options will be presented: Go North have more wind and came down along the Portuguese coast with the Portuguese trade winds to Lisbon or go directly to Lisbon and risk weaker winds. This one is going to be interesting till the end

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center


----------



## PCP

*Fox 10.20 Capado.*

Adrien and Capucine continue their fast and save journey around the world in their nice little boat and has time to make some nice movies:






For the ones that missed the previous posts about the Fox 10.20, a look at the boat:


----------



## PCP

*The first commercial boat with a bath tube bow :*

it is a* mini aluminum boat*. I confess that this one I was not expecting

It is a micro cruiser with an incredible interior space, a full head a galley and 1.80 standing height...well just incredible.










It is a well known professional French aluminum shipyards and not some crazy amateur that is doing this project. The boat has a sharp keel (that can go up) with a ballast bomb and I bet that is going to sail quite well

But pretty isn't at least to my eyes.











Design	David RAISON; David ROY; Quentin DELOUETTE.

Hull lenght:	6,8 m
LWL: 5,75 m
Beam: 2,88 m
Light displacement: 1,6 t
Main sail area: 19,5 m2
Jib area:	13,6 m2
Draft	0,5/1,5m
Standing height	1,80 m

I am quite curious to see who is going to buy this boat. I guess that in the US probably there would be a market for this boat. They love small cruisers. Or maybe not because they are also very conservative.

Guys, tell me what you think about this boat. I am very curious to hear your opinion. I confess this one put me scratching my head.


----------



## Mr W

*Re: The first commercial boat with a bath tube bow :*



PCP said:


> Guys, tell me what you think about this boat. I am very curious to hear your opinion. I confess this one put me scratching my head.


That really is ugly...

It do have an impressive amount of space inside due to the hullshape, so that´s a bonus. When it comes to sailing performance I´m not sure it will be a good allround boat. Wasn´t Raisons mini 6.50 rather lousy upwind? And that is compared to other 6.50´s that aren´t exactly top performers when it comes to upwind sailing, and probably not to comfortable upwind either. I´m not sure this concept is made for the large mass of sailors, but I guess many people say this about boats like Pogos as well. Seeing is believing, I guess we will have to wait for some youtube videos before judging this ugly duckling! 

//Mr W


----------



## DiasDePlaya

I'm waiting for the first designer that launch a 38' - 40' cruiser/racer scow. I'm sure that more than one is now drawing it.


----------



## PCP

*Re: The first commercial boat with a bath tube bow :*



Mr W said:


> ...When it comes to sailing performance I´m not sure it will be a good allround boat. Wasn´t Raisons mini 6.50 rather lousy upwind? And that is compared to other 6.50´s that aren´t exactly top performers when it comes to upwind sailing, and probably not to comfortable upwind either. .
> //Mr W


The disadvantage to the other mini has only to do upwind with waves. Since that aluminium boat would be mostly a coastal cruiser (unless some mad one decide to circumnavigate in one) that would not be a big problem and the advantage in space are really huge. Downwind it will be even more stable than the other mini, almost a cat

The idea of taking advantage of the extra space in a small boat looks good to me, what I found odd is the aluminum 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> I'm waiting for the first designer that launch a 38' - 40' cruiser/racer scow. I'm sure that more than one is now drawing it.


Racer/ cruiser I don´t know, as W pointed out this would be mostly a downwind boat and would have an horrible rating for racing. Now, a solo 40class racer or a boat like the Pogo cruiser (that is a performance cruiser but not a cruiser racer) that is a completely different story and I believe you are right regarding that.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Classical boats: Antibes*

The teaser: Just beautiful


----------



## PCP

*VOR design evolution or the evolution of sail boat design on the last 10 years.*

Great article published in Voile and Voiliers about the evolution of VOR design that is a bit the story of the evolution of modern sailboat design since you can find most of this evolution on performance cruising boats and even on cruising boats.

It is amazing how much boat design evolved in 10 years.

I will just post an Image calling the attention for the full article by François Chevalier.

On this image you can see the huge evolution between the 2001 Far plans (above) and the ones from Juan K (2011):










The article is very good and deserve a good reading. If you don't read French put it on a translator it will be worth the trouble.

Volvo Ocean Race, des VOR 60 aux VO 70 - Exclusif : les plans des voiliers de la Volvo depuis dix ans ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles

I had already noticed that the actual VOR 70, even if on the surface seem quite similar have quite different hulls. Just look at the last images on the article and see how different are the hulls.

Look at what is happening on the VOR and you will see that the boats have different performances according with the wind and sea condition. For instance now that they are power sailing at speeds over 20K, Groupama is the fastest, closing on everybody but on the last leg with weak to medium winds not even the huge talent of Cammas could bring the boat near the winner (Puma).

This fantastic design evolution had taken place because several designers could work inside the box rule proposing different solutions. This evolution and the things that have been discovered on this boats entered on the knowledge of the NA community and were used on all sorts of sailing boats, one way ot another.

The most successful designer of the last years was Juan K.

Now they want to finish with all that story of evolution due to bright and different designs transforming the VOR in a one class race and the one that is going to design the boats is not JK but Farr

This is a bad idea. This race is so expensive that it would not be some hundreds of thousands of dollars that are going to be spared with this solution that will make any difference in a race budget and the disadvantages in what regards boat evolution are going to be huge.

...


----------



## kibokit

Wow!


----------



## kibokit

that one is really great!


----------



## DiasDePlaya

PCP said:


> Racer/ cruiser I don´t know, as W pointed out this would be mostly a downwind boat and would have an horrible rating for racing. Now, a solo 40class racer or a boat like the Pogo cruiser (that is a performance cruiser but not a cruiser racer) that is a completely different story and I believe you are right regarding that.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I'm not sure that the rating will be so horrible. I haven't how estimate the rating, but from 3 years I was simulating a scow in my computer with very limited software and I concluded that this desing is the point between a catamaran and a monohull. Sailing upwind the boat works as a catamaran if the wind is over 10 knts and for sure will be fast, sailing downwind works like a windsurf and will be very fast. I found that the advantages of a scow boat are greater in lengs over 30 feets. But it will very slow upwind in less than 8 knots. But I'm only a mechanical engineer, not a naval engineer, so is very probably that I'm wrong.

A Pogo 12.50 with a scow bow and 2 meter longer mast would be a success.


----------



## PCP

*Bath tub boats*



DiasDePlaya said:


> I'm not sure that the rating will be so horrible. I haven't how estimate the rating, but from 3 years I was simulating a scow in my computer with very limited software and I concluded that this desing is the point between a catamaran and a monohull. Sailing upwind the boat works as a catamaran if the wind is over 10 knts and for sure will be fast, sailing downwind works like a windsurf and will be very fast. I found that the advantages of a scow boat are greater in lengs over 30 feets. But it will very slow upwind in less than 8 knots. But I'm only a mechanical engineer, not a naval engineer, so is very probably that I'm wrong.
> 
> A Pogo 12.50 with a scow bow and 2 meter longer mast would be a success.


That is about what David Raison says about its bath tub bow mini. As you know he is the designer, the builder and the skipper 

David Raison, skipper et designer du 747 Teamwork Evolution

As I have said the worst situation for this boat would be upwind with waves. The boat would not only be slow as very uncomfortable.

That is also the worst sailing position for a Pogo 12.50. That bow would make worse and more uncomfortable the Pogo upwind performance and I don't think that would be advisable or desirable.

I believe the next boats with that bow would be 40class racers that are mostly downwind racers like the Minis and on that extra performance downwind and at high wing angles will more than compensate in speed the worse performance upwind with waves or with weak winds.

Regarding performance cruising boats I don't expect bows has radical but the conception that a boat bow has to be absolutely sharp for a fast boat certainly was blown apart and I expect to see some more rounded bows even if not to the extent of this one. Even a slightly rounded bow will represent an advantage regarding cruising space namely space for the anchor winch chain and sail locker and will provide more righting moment to the boat.

I am very curious about the things to come in what regards this innovation on cruising and racing. I hope also that a slightly rounded bow will not look so ugly in a boat.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*VOR: Incredible Images with a whale on the way*

Look how Camper narrowly avoids a whale. Jesus that was a close call!!!






*Great news guys, not only the race is HOT as to make things better from now one the race would be practically live:
*
*The tracker normally updates every three hours with each position report, but with the fleet less than 1,000 miles from the Lisbon finish line with just 66 miles splitting first-placed Abu Dhabi to Sanya in sixth, the 2D tracker now update every 60 seconds.*

They all go over 20K in a tight pursuit and winning miles over the Farr boat that will not resist long to the superior performance of JK boats on this kind of sea and wind conditions. Look at the speeds: Abu Dhabi is in this conditions 1.5 to 2K slower than the competition. They should catch it in about a day.






But to make things more interesting they will only have these conditions for more 20 or 24 hours, after that they have to negotiate 250Nm with very unstable and weak winds and if they manage to catch Abu Dhabi till they enter that zone it will be the one with a best strategy, the one that will catch first the Portuguese trade winds that will win.

Or maybe we get lucky and have several boats racing alongside to the finish line.

...


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Bath tub boats*



PCP said:


> That is about what David Raison says about its bath tub bow mini. As you know he is the designer, the builder and the skipper
> 
> As I have said the worst situation for this boat would be upwind with waves. The boat would not only be slow as very uncomfortable.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


My job I think it was parallel to David's time, only mine is only the work of an amateur. The big difference is that my design has a bow that looks more like the bow of the Melges Scow, ends in a sloping surface that when the boat is heeled functions more like a normal bow, just that leaning forward at the opposite angle to a traditional vertical bow. Sorry, but when mi previous PC died I lost my work, then now I haven't pics to show.


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Just look at this drag race All over 20K. What a movie






But I was wrong, Abu Dhabi has been able to maintain the distance to Puma...but Grupama and Telefonica are winning big time over Puma and Abu Dhabi and maintaining the distance between them.

Telefonica is at 10Nm from Groupama, Groupama is at 8Nm from Puma and Puma is maintaining about 30Nm to Abu Dhabi.

They will be charging at this pace for less than 10 hours. That is not going to be enough for Groupama or Telefonica to catch Abu Dhabi but should be enough for Groupama to catch Puma.

Abu Dhabi is making a great race and will start the last play with 10 or 15Nm of advantage over everybody&#8230;.but that is assuming the same strategy and course and Groupama and Camper are already diving to Lisboa while all the others are still pointing more to the North.

That's what I have I was talking about two possible courses for the last part of the race: Direct to Lisbon with less wind or more to the North on the Portuguese Coast and then down with the Portuguese trade winds. What is the better route?

Obviously I don't have a clue, it all depends on the winds they will find (or not) on a very narrow stretch, something like 80 or 100Nm that can decide the winner. They will be weak and variable winds but these boats don't need much wind to sail. After that they will have a perfect wind to Lisbon.

Of course even if they need little wind, they need some wind&#8230;if they fall in a hole without any wind they can stay there for hours and everybody is going to overtake them.

Big play, great race

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

...


----------



## PCP

*Vor70*

*Groupama sailing team have been in overdrive overnight draining one and a half tonnes of water after their aft ballast tank cracked and spilled its content in the inside of their boat.

Skipper Franck Cammas and helmsman Thomas Coville "paddled" in the aft compartment and drained the water, Media Crew Member Yann Riou reported this morning.

Bowman Brad Marsh was then charged with the repair effort, spending more than three hours, grinder in hand, fixing the busted tank.

Riou said there were still a few finishing touches to be made, but for now the tank was fixed and ready for the final charge to the Leg 7 finish at Lisbon, Portugal.
*

And while they were draining the water and making repairs *THEY KEPT CHARGING FULL BLAST.*

They are all over Puma at only 25Nm from Abu Dhabi and managed to increase the distance over Telefonica. The no wind zone ahead seems to be smaller than expected and they should have a decent wind for more 6 to 8 hours, even if the speed starts decreasing.

Camper is also making a great race and is all over Telefonica at 20NM from Puma.

*OH BOY, THIS IS GOING TO BE CLOSE!!!! WHAT A RACE!!!*

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

....


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

It seems I was right again regarding previsions

with about three hours to go till they have only 10k wind and start to enter that zone with very weak and changing winds that will decide the race, Groupama is side by side with Puma. Telefonica and Camper are at only about 15Nm. Abu Dhaby has that head start of about 10, 15Nm.

The boats more to the North have slightly more wind pressure and the ones to the South will enter just a bit sooner on that difficult low wind stretch but will have a shorter route.

On the next hours the speed is going to diminish first to near 10K than for less than that. Camper and Telefonica, that are almost side by side will approach Groupama. Puma will come to less than 10Nm from Abu Dhabi....and then the race will be decided on the tactics to pass a small patch of sea with almost no wind.

That will start to happen in about three hours and you can follow it almost live on the tracker.

*Gentlemen make your bets!!!* it is going to be quite a final 

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

....


----------



## APP Mode

*Re: Halberg Rassy 412: First images*



Mr W said:


> It´s interesting to see the HRs´ and Najads´ evolving to more normal sailboats than just big, heavy motorsailors. My mother is on Orust today to pick up her new HR 310, ordered with small bowsprit, Asymetric spinnaker and code 0. Should be interesting to go for a ride on that boat! She sent me some pictures the other day, from the shipyard.
> 
> //Mr W


Did she ever considered a NAJAD? What considerations she tooked to choose HR? How long does Halber Rassy takes to deliver the boat?


----------



## APP Mode

I am trying to find coments about LEGEND YACHTS : Legend Yachts UK Dealers

Is there any post here?


----------



## nemier

New Catamaran - Aeroyacht Alpha 42 
by Gregor Tarjan.

Built in US of A.

Check it out.

Photo Gallery - Aeroyacht

I got my eye on it


----------



## PCP

*Vor70*

Another great movie:






Groupama has been the fastest boat and it is finally at only 10Nm from Abu Dhabi that has lost not much to Puma. Camper and Telefonica are now the fastest boats and are winning to everybody. They are all making between 12 and 14K. In an hour or two they will be happy if they can make 7 or 8 k and the chances are that some of the boats will get in trouble during the night with no available wind.

That is going to be an interesting night for us but a terrible night for some of those guys.


----------



## PCP

APP Mode said:


> I am trying to find coments about LEGEND YACHTS : Legend Yachts UK Dealers
> 
> Is there any post here?


No, sorry about that.










Legend Yachts are the British Hunters:

*Hunter Marine products [branded as Legend Yachts in the U.K.] are distributed throughout the world in over 50 countries in Europe, North and South America, the Middle East and the Pacific Rim region. So, whatever part of the planet you cruise, you're sure to meet others who are sharing the experience of enjoying sailing the Hunter/Legend way.*

They are known to use twin keels instead of the wing keel for having a low draft.

I would look on this forum for more information:

Hunter Legend 36 - Yachting and Boating World Forums

Hunter/Legend question...... - Yachting and Boating World Forums

Hunter Legend 40.5 - have you sailed one? - Yachting and Boating World Forums

Legend v Jeanneau - Yachting and Boating World Forums

If you really search you will find lots of information.

I guess that around here, in what regards twin keels, we prefer the RM

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Aeroyacht Alpha 42*



nemier said:


> New Catamaran - Aeroyacht Alpha 42
> by Gregor Tarjan.
> 
> Built in US of A.
> 
> Check it out.
> 
> Photo Gallery - Aeroyacht
> 
> I got my eye on it


Well, you are looking to luxury side of things. This one even have teak decks and that is quite astonishing on a cat










The boat as also some interesting features but I don't like the big freeboard and the windage the big cabin will make. I know if you have a bigger interior space you have to have a big volume over the water...

That is a compromise you have to chose and the boat looks nice and interesting.





































http://www.aeroyacht.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Alpha-42-Brochure-web.pdf

But I confess that for the same type of boat I like more the Aventura 43




























Of course I am talking just over designs. I did not saw or know any of the boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 35*

I spot a movie with the Salona 35, a very unexpected one.

I knew that Glénans, one of the best sailing schools in Europe had bought several Salona 37 for use as offshore training sailboats but did not knew that they had bought one of the new 35&#8230;and a custom one since it has only a wheel instead of two.





Stage Glénans - Force Sète à Marseille _por pib-66_

These guys on Glénans know a lot a boat sailing and sailing boats and it means something that they chose Salona sailboats for offshore training&#8230;specially considering they are French

...


----------



## PCP

*Vor70*

Awesome race. They are all out of the hook in what regards being stuck in that no wind zone and the night winner was Ian Walker on Abu Dhabi that has managed not only not to lose the advantage he had but managed to increased that advantage.

They are at about 200Nm from the finish and their lateral distance is almost 100Nm

But now the fastest boat is again Grupama. They give a 20Nm advantage to Abu Dhabi over Groupama but frankly I don't understand their maths. The real distance seems a lot shorter to me and Puma is also close.

This is going to be a hell of a finish. I guess that in the afternoon I am going to pick my binoculars and I am going to Cabo da Roca to see the final fight live

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

....


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

It would be Abu Dhabi or Groupama to win this one. Both deserve to win in my opinion.

Abu Dhabi is 12Nm closer to the finish but Groupama has a better wind angle and is able to make 1K more. 64Nm to go and that should be about 4 to 5 hours sailing time (they will get weaker winds near Lisbon).

If Abu Dhabi can maintain that 1K deferential in speed they will win with about a 6Nm advantage but on the weaker winds probably the better angle will get a bigger advantage to Groupama and the difference in speed can be more than 1K.

More difficult to Groupama but not impossible. I am leaving to Lisboa to have a better view

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

..


----------



## CKDexterHaven

Paulo--we want pictures! 

My podium prediction (looking at the live tracker at 11d 01:07:00):

G4
ADOR
PUMA


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*



CKDexterHaven said:


> Paulo--we want pictures!
> 
> My podium prediction (looking at the live tracker at 11d 01:07:00):
> 
> G4
> ADOR
> PUMA


Sorry Mate, no pictures

*That was an incredible race* and I have to say that some of the better parts were raced in slow motion and would be more interesting to follow in the computer than in real time, particularly that last fight for 4th place between Camper and Telefonica. It was in so slow motion that sometimes they even went backwards with the tide and river flow.

In a way it was a bit not too fair for Telefonica that managed to recover on the last 50Nm 12Nm to Camper. Finaly Telefonica overtook Camper at the river mouth and then the wind disappeared and both boats started an excruciating slow motion race on the river Tejo going upwind and sometimes going backwards with the tide. That was a bit of a lottery, it took several hours to make just a few miles, both boats had the lead for several times and in the end Camper took it.

Regarding the first place I have mixed feelings: Ian Walker resilience to resist for many days to Puma attacks was great. Also the fight they put against Groupama was admirably but notwithstanding that the fact is that Groupama had recovered to Puma on the last 100Nm 18Nm and on the last 50Nm 11Nm, finishing at just 0.4Nm from Puma. That distance is so small that almost for sure if they had not sustained a breakdown the might before, having 1.5T of water sloshing around on the boat and losing speed on account of that, they would have won this race.

An that was the second time since on Itajai leg, had they not broken their mast they would have probably won that race too, race that they finished third under Jury rig.

So, congratulations to Abu Dhabi and Ian Walker for this great victory, one that he deserved already after winning several in port races and congratulations to frank Cammas and Groupama for a well deserved lead on this race.

Contrary to the other teams, Cammas team is composed mostly of Rookies to this race. Some are much more experienced as solo sailors as team crew players. We can say that they have taken their time to perfect their team work but in the space of some months the passed the status of rookies to the status of one of the Favorites for the final victory.

A final word for Puma. They have made a great job at the middle of the race and at that time they were in hot pursuit of Abu Dhabi and it seemed they were going to catch it....and then they start the recovering and start even losing time, not only to Abu Dhabi but also to everybody. They were overtook by Groupama. Telefonica and Camper almost got them. They enter the mouth of the river with less than 2Nm advantage and on the last 50Nm of the race they lost almost 25Nm toTelefonica.

That is too bad to be only due to strategic errors and I assume they have problems with the remaining sails or with sail condition and that can be crippling for the rest of the race. Does anybody now something about this?






The race is better than never. With Telefonica at only 3 points from Groupama, Puma at 9 points from Telefonica and Camper at also 9 points from Puma, everything can still happen in this race and the one that is going to win it is still very much unknown.* HOT!!!*

....


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Paulo,

Imagine a boat like this but 40' long.


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Halberg Rassy 412: First images*



APP Mode said:


> Did she ever considered a NAJAD? What considerations she tooked to choose HR? How long does Halber Rassy takes to deliver the boat?


Hi! I don't think she ever considered a Najad. They have gone bankrupt I think twice in only a few years. And the smallest Najad is 35 feet, I think the HR 310 is very well suited for them. I think they wanted high quality and finish, comfortable interior (they like the "classic" look with lots of wood) but also a boat with "good" sailing performance. They ordered the boat back in June 2011 and could have had it delivered sooner, but sailing season here is only from May to October, so they didn't want it delivered sooner.

Worth to mention is that they also looked at Sun Fast 3200 and Dragonfly 28 but they came to their senes and bought the HR!

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

nemier said:


> New Catamaran - Aeroyacht Alpha 42
> by Gregor Tarjan.
> 
> Built in US of A.
> 
> Check it out.
> 
> Photo Gallery - Aeroyacht
> 
> I got my eye on it


This boat looks a bit like the Alibi 54, only somewhat fatter.  A quick look in the specifications confirm that; the Alpha 42 weighs 10.2T and the Alibi 54 only 7T. Huge difference! So this boat will unfortunately probably have performance like the Lagoons and other condomarans

Mr W


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Imagine a boat like this but 40' long.


I have checked that and you know, the bow of the Raison's Mini is similar to those. The difference is that the mini has a lot more freeboard and the bow looks a lot fatter on account of that. If you raise that bow more 80cm you will have the mini magnum bow.

Yes I can imagine a 40 class racer with that bow. What I could mot imagine till now is a boat with that bow that would look nice...and I have a big imagination.

But I an sure that with time we all are going to be more tolerant about more rounded bows because I think they are here to stay.

20 years ago almost all considered the big beamy Open boats will large transoms very ugly boats. Today most of us has accepted that aesthetically point of view and we can find them even quite beautiful. I guess that aesthetics are related with performance: fast is beautiful...the problem is that the eyes take some time to get used to new shapes and forms.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Film from Lidingö Runt*



Mr W said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Here´s a short film from the regatta Lidingö Runt, showing some nice boats (among them Elan 350, Aspect 40, X-35, Dufour 36e Performance (Ecolution), Finnflyer 36 (Black Pearl), Seaon 96, First 36.7 (Arken Zoo), Mannerberg 38, Xp 38 and more)!
> 
> LidingoRunt2012.wmv - YouTube
> 
> //Mr W


Hei, I found a nicer video of that regatta you raced. It is really a nicely made one. Make me envious of you


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria B one*

First images published by Yacht Magazine with a boat test coming soon.
































































The Farr designed boat looks just great and at that price is going to sell in great numbers. In no time there is going to be a large racing fleet and that means great and fast racing at a low cost, best the best new is that Bavaria is back to sport boats

Specifications

Overall length: 7,00 m 
Loa: 7,28 m 
LWL: 6.37 m 
Beam: 2,49 m 
Draft: 0,34 m 
Displacement: 1050 kg 
Ballast: 370 kg
Main: 21 sqm
Jib: 11 sqm
gennaker Race: 46 sqm gennaker 
Cruise: 40 sqm 
Designer: Farr Yacht Design

.....


----------



## PCP

*40class racing in the USA.*

On the first big American class 40 duo crewed race (Atlantic cup) there were some surprises, not about the winner, Mares a German boat skipped by Riechers, a boat and skipper that have been winning a lot, but regarding the second place for the American Bodacious Dream, skipped by an old salt, Dave Rearick.

They beat all the French boats. That is even more surprising if we consider that their boat is a NZ designed and made 40class racer and they have not properly 40class races down there.





















Race great results on this race makes sense because, as they say, the boat is designed to be a more all around boat and not so specialized on downwind racing, like on transats. So that boat should have an advantage on this race and it certainly proved that on all around conditions it is a very fast boat and can beat most of the boats designed with a more oriented sailing purpose.

Of course, on a Transat with mostly downwind sailing those sailing advantages will turn probably in disadvantages.


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria Vision 46*

The first real boat test is available on line. It is from Yacht magazine and you have to pay 2€ for it but if you are really interested in a boat this and size and type I believe it will be money well spent. Their tests are quite good. For the little the say about the boat test one line I would say that my suspicion that this boat is different from the other Bavarias is confirmed.

They say:

*A Cruising yacht with wow factor

No longer just cheap. Bavaria wants with the vision 46 to satisfy more demanding owners. *

I will post some images of that test but I will try to post the ones that seem more relevant to me in what regards that difference, besides being a good looking boat and probably a good sailing boat.

We can see that contrary to what happens to some other boats the space for the Welshman is substantial, that the pods are not central and that they incorporate strong holding bars. It has a huge and neat space for storage and also a neat running rigging. We had also saw previously that the boat had a large galley and a big head.

This boat would be a very good boat for living aboard and if the sail performance is as good as I think it is it will be a slightly different approach regarding other mass production boat builders. The one that it will came close it will be the Jeanneau but this one seems more pointed to a more intensive use compared with the Jeanneau.


----------



## PCP

*Open 60*

While we wait for the in-port race in Lisbon we can have a look at the Open 60 race. They leaved Lisbon some days before the VOR 70 arrived turned around Açores, turned around the Fastnet rock and are almost arriving to the leg finish at La Rochelle.

Europa Warm'Up

This is the last race, a kind of check up before the Vendee globe. We can take some conclusions: First that is worrying the level of breakage in boats that will have to go around the world non stop: Virbac Paprec after having won the first leg did retired on the beginning of the second leg due to an issue with the hydraulics which drive the keel rams. Groupe Bel dismasted near Açores.

In 7 boats 2 retired in such a short race. That is a worrying sign for the next Vendee.

Regarding the positive signs he can see that François Gabart, on Macif and Vicent Riou are in great form, as Jean Pierre Dick, at least till he had to retire. The performance of these guys and their boats is very close and they will be favorites on the next BIG race.

Europa Warm'Up


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Film from Lidingö Runt*



PCP said:


> Hei, I found a nicer video of that regatta you raced. It is really a nicely made one. Make me envious of you


Hi Paulo, yes that is a nicer video! So I guess you also saw the video from Ornö Runt, last weekends race?






I couldn´t find time to join my brother on this race, which was sad! They came in on 40th place in total, but won the Arcona 340 class. You can see his Arcona 340 in this film at 3:40 (now that´s fun, a 340 at 3:40). Fastest keelboat I believe was, not surprisingly, the TP52 3h06m38s. Winner on corrected time (SRS) was a Finngulf 33 (3h55m21s), as usual! Fastest boat around the island was a Seacart 30 (2h34m24s). I´m always a bit amazed at how these small multihulls can be quicker than a big and extreme (and probably very expensive) TP52 with a huge crew! 

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: 40class racing in the USA.*



PCP said:


> They beat all the French boats. That is even more surprising if we consider that their boat is a NZ designed and made 40class racer and they have not properly 40class races down there.


The Kiwi 40FC is indeed a cool boat, Farr yacht design can create fast Class 40s as well! When will the cruising version be available? 

Aren´t the newest class 40s quite similar though? One might think the difference in performance has more to do with the skipper than the boat, or what do you think Paulo?

//Mr W


----------



## ImASonOfaSailor

My reynolds 21


----------



## PCP

*Re: Film from Lidingö Runt*



Mr W said:


> Hi Paulo, yes that is a nicer video! So I guess you also saw the video from Ornö Runt, last weekends race?
> 
> ...//Mr W


Yes, but I left it for you to post. I have to say that there are at this time of the year plenty of races around, but the Swedish make the best movies

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: 40class racing in the USA.*



Mr W said:


> The Kiwi 40FC is indeed a cool boat, Farr yacht design can create fast Class 40s as well! When will the cruising version be available?
> 
> Aren´t the newest class 40s quite similar though? One might think the difference in performance has more to do with the skipper than the boat, or what do you think Paulo?
> 
> //Mr W


When a top designer makes top racing boats to top crews, specially for ocean racing they maximize the boat performance to a given set of performances. If the crews are of equal value if the boat finds more time with the sailing conditions for which its performance are maximized it will win. However these are small differences and the crews has to be of equal value.

Riechers had won the race with a boat that is maximized for downwind "normal" transat conditions and I think that it has to do with having a very good boat but mostly with the fact that he is one of the best 40class skippers. The NZ designed boat with two rookies come second not only because it was well sailed (as most of the other boats) but because it is an overall better boat on other conditions than downwind with medium or strong wind.

As I said if those where the prevalent conditions I believe Mare and Riechers would still be the winners but on the second post we would not have the NZ designed boat but one of the French boats.

http://tv.yacht.de/video/J%C3%B6rg-...re%26quot%3B/a5414fe3ad7c67aa1dbbec6ea3307cc4

Mare is a beautiful boat and I would like to see a cruising version of that one. The boat even had a great view to the outside from the boat interior, one that permits you to keep an eye on what is happening around when you are on the interior.

That is a Sam Manuard boat. I have a big admiration for this guy. He is an ocean racer that also designs boats. He is good on both counts but specially designing boats. He is a passionate guy.

Regarding your boat and regarding the boats you are considering I think you would not lose your time having a conversation with him regarding your boat and your needs. Among the big French racing community they can get you a nice hull, mast and rigging not for much (considering weight, performance and quality) and they can point you to someone that can get you a practical interior at affordable price. I bet he would understand exactly what you want and would be able to design it.

http://sam.manuard.free.fr/

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

ImASonOfaSailor said:


> My reynolds 21
> 
> 06-02-2012 Reynolds 21 Catamaran - YouTube


Hi, thanks for posting.

The Reynolds cat's certainly deserve a post. Randy Reynolds has the bad luck of being born in the USA in time sailing and particularly sailing performance boats have a low demand. If he was an European certainly its boats would be in production and his name would be a familiar one.

The boat posted above, the Reynolds 21 was an incredibly advanced boat for its time. 50 of these boats were produced between 1978 and 1979, more than 30 years ago. Reynolds designed that boat when he was 22 years old

After some years dedicated to windsurfing, in 2000 he tried to produce an innovative and fast 28ft trimaran but other than the prototype (that was able to do 19k speed in 22k wind) no other boat was made. Then he made the R33. Some boats where made, the boat is very difficult to beat racing but the production still remained almost confidential.






Now he has a new 44 cat design with real cruising potential, a bit like a Pogo is to the other cruising monohulls, I mean regarding other cats. This one will be an easy 20k boats. I hope some of you guys can see the potential of the boat not only for racing but also for cruising. I guess Reynolds deserve that.

Reynolds Sailing Catamarans and multihulls, boat builders and dealers of sailboats specializing in catamarans. Current boats for sale is the trailerable R33 cat and R50 cat designed by boat designers Randy Reynolds and Morrelli and Melvin.





































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Hunter 22 and Astus 20.2*

Two new boats tested by Yacht magazine and with a test movie to have a look:

The Hunter 22, an inexpensive daysaler from Hunter, a boat that sails well and that has in price its main advantage:










*Movie:*

Ungewöhnlich anders: Hunter 22 - Yacht TV - Segel-Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

And the Astus 20.2, the little sister of the Astus 22. I like a lot the Astus 22 and the idea of a coastal fast and inexpensive foldable camping boat. The 20.2 has the same program but it is even less expensive (20.480 €).



















vidéo de l'ASTUS 20.2 Sport en navigation à la... _por astusboats_

*Movies:*

Einsteiger-Tri Astus 20.2 im Test - Yacht TV - Segel-Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

http://www.astusboats.com/astusboat...ues-transportables-voiliers-voile-loisirs.php

They are planning a bigger boat for next year, one that would be more than a camping boat. It sure looks good


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Paulo,

The actual projects from Randy Reynolds are here:

Reynolds Design


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Another interesting boat build in Argentina and designed by Juan K.

http://www.martinolimarine.com/K37CR2011.pdf


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> Paulo,
> 
> The actual projects from Randy Reynolds are here:
> 
> Reynolds Design


Nice, thanks for posting. They have a video on the 45. The boat looks even better:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

*Re: 40class racing in the USA.*



PCP said:


> That is a Sam Manuard boat. I have a big admiration for this guy. He is an ocean racer that also designs boats. He is good on both counts but specially designing boats. He is a passionate guy.











P.S. Paulo, have you posted about Baltic Yachts http://www.balticyachts.fi


----------



## PCP

*Re: 40class racing in the USA.*



G1000 said:


> <...
> 
> P.S. Paulo, have you posted about Baltic Yachts Frontpage 2010


I don't think I had, except a movie of one of their boats if I recall correctly. Feel more than free to post about them. They are great boats.

Meanwhile a small movie to remember that the *2012 Round the Island Race *will start in 26 days and has already *1590 entries*






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sam Manuard*

And since G posted Manuard on the shipyard making boats, I will post one of Manuard racing in one of his boats and getting a remarkably good result on the biggest French Transat, the Route du Rhum (2010).

He arrived 4th on its 40class boat competing against more than 40 other class40 skipped by some of the best French solo sailors. That time he beat Riechers that come in 6th place on a Owen Clarke Design.

Now Riechers on a Sam Manuard boat is the man to beat






As a sailor he is a complete and multi talented one. One year later he won the transat Jaques Fabre (Transat) on the Multi 50class (with le Blevec).


----------



## PCP

*K37cr*



DiasDePlaya said:


> Another interesting boat build in Argentina and designed by Juan K.
> 
> http://www.martinolimarine.com/K37CR2011.pdf


The boat looks just great. Pity the interior doesn't look that good but it can be just a prototype or bad quality pictures.

weighting only 4900 kg I bet that boat is really a very fast one. Of course a really cruising version with a smaller draft (2.10/2.20) would weight more 300kg or so. Anyway it still would be a light boat.

I bet it is also a boat with an overall good performance, a very well balanced boat. The beam looks big (because it is all aft) but in fact it is moderated, the same beam that a Xp38 has about the same om a Salona 38.

Do you know the price?

Best regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mini class Racers*

Of course Manuard started racing and doing his own boats when he was younger an racing in the Minis. He got several overall victories and some leg victories. The minis, has David Raison and its bath tub showed, are just an incredible place were young sailors and designers can prove their tallent.

One of the biggest innovations on the next mini-transat is going to be a boat built by Isotop with the DSS system. The boat is designed by Hugh Welbourn, the designer that created that system and it will be a revolution as big as the bow tube....providing it works

The boat with the help of a lateral foil, perpendicular to the boat will generate more dynamic stability and generating RM that way they don't need so much hull stability and the boat would be a lot less beamy than the other Minis with a much smaller wet surface (11m2 to 7m2) and that has obviously advantages.

I talked already about the DSS experiences and about the boats designed by Hugh but I cannot get any images on internet of that mini design. If someone can please post them. While we wait, some other designs with the DSS system:




























*Don't miss this:*

http://www.classemini.com/modules/kameleon/upload/minitransat_DSS_seahorse.pdf

http://www.dynamicstabilitysystems.com/PDFs/thedailysailPartI.pdf

DSS - Dynamic Stability Systems - the revolutionary retractable foil keel technology for monohull yachts and boats


----------



## motorcat

Trials summary -


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Mini class Racers*



PCP said:


> I talked already about the DSS experiences and about the boats designed by Hugh but I cannot get any images on internet of that mini design. If someone can please post them.


No sailing pictures, but better than nothing! 


















Article for anyone who reads french. I don´t so please summarize!:
http://www.classemini.com/modules/kameleon/upload/Bateaux_Magazine_january_2012.pdf

I think there is a rather new article in Voile et Voiliers, but I´m not a member so I can´t read it (well, I still don´t read french so that doesn´t matter):
Dominique Pédron, constructeur du premier Mini 6,50 à foil : «Sur le papier, un mini à foil est plus rapide à toutes les allures !» - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: Mini class Racers*



Mr W said:


> No sailing pictures, but better than nothing!
> ...
> I think there is a rather new article in Voile et Voiliers, but I´m not a member so I can´t read it (well, I still don´t read french so that doesn´t matter):
> Dominique Pédron, constructeur du premier Mini 6,50 à foil : «Sur le papier, un mini à foil est plus rapide à toutes les allures !» - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles
> 
> //Mr W


Thanks W. This thread is becoming a lot better. I really appreciate your contributions. I hope you (G and all the other posters on this thread) can keep up the spirit and the thread alive when I am gone away in a week or so.

I have read the article on Voile and Voiliers (paper magazine) and they did not say much. I found the article you have posted from "Bateau" more interesting.

I will try a short resume:

*Dominique Pedron is the chief executive of ISOTOP a very specialized firm the make foils and rudders mostly for racing boats. The guy like naval architecture and in 2008 heard about the DSS system. He had already worked with Hugh on a big racing trimaran (foils and rudders) and appreciated the team work.

In 2009, Pedron, that thought the principle make sense, just for the fun of it started to build a mini designed by Hugh with the DSS system.

This is a very different mini. A regular one has about 3m beam. This one has only 1.85m.

Le DSS foil works inside a waterproof box and move from on side to the other. All is in carbon.

The system works differently from a bulb in a keel. while the bulb on a keel makes force to right the boat, this system holds the boat. Quite the opposite.

Gordon Kay that has a partnership with Hugh says that the DSS boats are not only safer but more comfortable because the foil works like a damper.

Then you have the opinion of tho great NA, Marc Lombard that says he is not convinced. He says that the drag is going to be huge and that the system will only work well in flat water when it is parallel to the surface. With waves there is going to be a strong incidence variation on the angle and the drag will increase exponentially.

Daniel Andrieu, the designer of the Sunfast 3200 is more cautious. He says : he have to try it*.

Well I would say one thing. This one is almost as ugly has the Raison's bathtub:laugher....and I agree with Andrieu : It deserves to be tried even if what Lombard says makes sense.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Nice recap


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: K37cr*



PCP said:


> The boat looks just great. Pity the interior doesn't look that good but it can be just a prototype or bad quality pictures.
> 
> weighting only 4900 kg I bet that boat is really a very fast one. Of course a really cruising version with a smaller draft (2.10/2.20) would weight more 300kg or so. Anyway it still would be a light boat.
> 
> I bet it is also a boat with an overall good performance, a very well balanced boat. The beam looks big (because it is all aft) but in fact it is moderated, the same beam that a Xp38 has about the same om a Salona 38.
> 
> Do you know the price?
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Paulo


US$300.000 FOB Argentina without sails and ropes.

I'm waiting for more information from the shipyard.


----------



## PCP

*Mini RG650*



DiasDePlaya said:


> US$300.000 FOB Argentina without sails and ropes.
> 
> I'm waiting for more information from the shipyard.


Well, it was to be expected. This kind of boats light and with a big ballast ratio are expensive to built.

An Argentinian one that I find to be delivered in the USA at an incredible good price is this one:










It is also a Argentinian boat designed by G yacht design (Hey G, are you designing boats now)?.

The boat, a mini class racer with canting keel and all is purposed for USD 40000 delivered on the US East coast as a kit to be mounted.

Featuring the RG650

Even so it would not be difficult to adapt this boat for doing some cruising besides racing.

I find it a good looking boat and certainly it can go fast:






RG 650

G Yacht Design

Do you know more about this one? Any interest among Argentinians in what regards solo sailing and particularly mini racing?

They are having success with the boat?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## DiasDePlaya

> Jose, recién hable con el dueño del barco que es amigo personal. Me comenta que el mismo "fue" diseñado para correr en IRC asi que se supone sería su mejor situación. Yo le voy a consultar a Juan K pero además Lucas, que es el dueño del barco lo va a hacer medir la semana que viene porque quiere tenerlo medido para alguna regata futura.
> Un abrazo.
> 
> Juanpa


The K37CR was designed to race under IRC formula and will be measured next week.


----------



## PCP

*G yacht Design*

I never heard about it before but after seeing that mini, that seems to be a great design, I had a better look at their work.

G yachts is basically Nicolas Goldenberg. He is almost a kid in what regards the age of most NA (29 year's old) but has already some very nice designs. It seems that the bigger ones were made by him but while working to a major Italian NA firm. He does not name it. I guess that he is still being commissioned by them

* Nicolas was born in Argentina in 1983, linked to sailing from a young age he decided to pursuit his dream of becoming a naval architect. After his graduation from Southampton Institute (UK) he continued his development as a naval architect in a very prestigious Italian yacht design office.*

I really like his boats that go from Minis to Class 40 to more classical cruiser racers. Very nice boats. This guy is good One more a on a long tradition of Argentinian Na.


----------



## PCP

*K 37cr*



DiasDePlaya said:


> The K37CR was designed to race under IRC formula and will be measured next week.


well, since you know the guys keep us posted about the boat racing performance

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Nathanaël G. Herreshoff: Fin keel boat and cats*

One of my last posts if not the last of this season and I want it to be special and what can be more special that the most innovative architect ever : Nathanaël Herreshoff

I hope the guys from voile and voilers don't mind that I post here some of their images, after all I am sending you guys to their pages and their very good articles, one about Herreshof, other about the first cat designs and boy, they are not only innovative but beautiful.

First Herreshof: Look at this baby, Dilemna, 11,58m, 1891, Fin keel and a bulb with a ruder well on the stern.










And even more incredible, his cat, a modern cat if we discount the rig: John Gilpin, 9.75m, 1877.




























of course, they kick out this one from racing. Forbidden boat. Too fast and too modern

You can read a very good article here about Herreshoff , on voile and voiliers:
Nathanaël G. Herreshoff, le plus grand architecte naval de tous les temps - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles

But the surprises don't finish here. Just look at these not so well known designs:

Dominion, 10,83m 1898 designed by Herrick Duggan










Hades, trimaran, 16,75m, 1902, designed by Crowninshield










And a cat with a rigid sail designed by Lewis Herreshoff back in 1948.










You can read a great article here on Voile and Voiliers, the one from where this images were taken:
L

Also here a very interesting one about the Polynesian Proas and cats:
L

Well, use the Google translator and have a good read. Certainly these are interesting articles.

...


----------



## PCP

Please guys, post at will. I am posting this already from Italy. Don't have the time to make decent posts but I will be looking at this thread when I can. Just will not be the main poster anymore...for a while. That's your turn

Regards to all

Paulo


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Don't worry Paulo, we will wait for you!


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Sirs,

This is the new Kuka Light!

Philosophy | kuka-light

kuka-light - The first "giro d'Italia" on Vimeo


----------



## PCP

Nice, even if I doubt they can beat a full crewed Ker 40, at least if half of the time is upwind sailing. With nasty weather and upwind the ker would be much faster and a lot less stressfull.

Thanks for posting, it is a very interesting boat designed by one of the hottest new design cabinets : Schickler Tagliapietra

Just look at some of his other designs&#8230;.nice:

Schickler Tagliapietra | IRC and Box-rule Archive

The KuKa is a kind of super class 40, an open 40 with foils and canting keel. It has a big beam and is light, very light, with not a big ballast ratio but with a huge draft to compensate:

Length	12.80 mt
beam	4.60 mt
Draft	3.50 mt
Displ (light)	3'200 kg
Upwind SA	116 mq
Downwind SA	218 mq

They say about the boat:

The project began with a simple set of parameters:
•	Capable of Rolex Middle Sea Race and Rolex Fastnet Race, together with other ocean courses of comparable length.
•	Monohull sloop around LOA 12.9 m, but final size dependent on build facility limits.
•	No regard for rating whatsoever.
•	As light as possible, period.
The initial discussions centered on weight and what "no rules" really means. The IMOCA 60's were often used as a reference. It was decided that achieving Design Category A for the purposes of CE/ISO certification and ISAF OSR Category 1 was appropriate. This would make the boat a proper ocean racer, just a level below the deep trans-ocean racing of the IMOCA's. A transatlantic race will likely still be attainable for this boat, with some upgrades.
Options to achieve the lowest possible weight initially touched on the simplicity of the design:
•	Canting vs. fixed deep draft keel
•	Fixed mast vs. rotating wing mast
The power to weight of the canting keel proved unbeatable with technology today, for the regattas in question. The efficiency of the rotating wing mast, enhanced by a boat that would sail more like a catamaran than like a fixed keel mono, was too attractive to be ignored. &#8230;

To get the lowest possible weight of the primary hull and deck laminates and unprecedented approach was taken. We decided to build the port and starboard sides, the central hull, and the deckhouse and cockpit each in the largest diameter autoclave available to us. This gives access to huge pressures during cure and allows one to choose prepreg's with far higher fibre to resin ratios than is normally possible. This is exactly the kind of construction techniques ruled out in the America's Cup, the VOR, and even IMOCA yachts, except for the masts and appendages. Because we were working at a reasonable scale, the costs were not explosive. The weight savings were unattainable any other way. It goes without saying that bowsprit, foils, and mast would also be produced in this same hi-tech fashion.

To capitalize still further on the lightest techniques possible, core material from aramid honeycomb was chosen. It is truly super core, with properties that allow the designers to reduce weight still further. Aramid cores, though hard to master, have higher stiffness and strength than conventional foam cores, but at about ½ the weight per square meter.

.. The primary focus was how hard the boat could be driven. Deck immersion in waves was considered to be a crucial factor. If it was possible to reduce deck immersion and heeled drag at the same time, all the better. In the end, this study showed the value of rocker, as much as it did volume distribution forward of the mast.

.. *As it stands, if Kuka were an IMOCA 60, it would be 15% lighter than the nearest competitor. There is nothing like it on the race course. It is wide for its length, 4.6 m wide for 12.7 m LOA. It is has a considerable sprit and an upwind sailplan almost exactly the same as a Class 40, at a fraction of the lightship weight.* Kuka has been a unique project, the best challenge we have been presented with to date, and likely for the foreseeable future.

Doug Schickler - ST Yacht

The boa tis going to make the Fastnet and I really want to see what he can make against the ker 40.

I am at Sant'Andrea Marina fitting out my boat and there are some interesting boats that makes this place their home: Among them some big Swans and the Silver Chiller, an interesting all carbon Corsair 37, a famous boat and winner of many races:

SILVERCHILLER | Corsair 37 RS Carbon Trimaran

...


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria Vision 46 and Archambault 27*

Two of the best designed boats that come recently to the market: A cruiser and a fast daysailer, on the videos of Yacht magazine:

Bavaria Vision 46: Ist die Neueste auch die Beste? - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Archambault 27: Rasender Daysailer mit Tourergenen - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

Very nice movie about the 8th leg of the race:






Cammas and his team are no longer the rookies of this race, but the probable winners. And with this victory Cammas joins the legendary French sailors and has deserved a place side by side with Tabarly.

What impresses me most, beside the very different sailing categories and type of boats in which he excels is that he is so young to have won so much.

When he skippers a crew, on the Volvo, or in the Jules Verne Trophy, he is always one of the younger guys. That is not natural, the captain is normally among the older and more experienced.

Believe it or not, he opted for sailing as a career leaving behind is other passion, music: He is also a classical piano player.

Cheers to him. He was my unconditional admiration


----------



## PCP

*New Volvo 65*

As it was expected is a one class boat designed by Farr.

http://api.new.livestream.com/accounts/6/events/958876/videos/1729827.html?width=640&height=360

I don't like the idea of a one class racer for the main sailing ocean crew event (by the same reasons it would be very poor if F1 was raced with identical cars). The reasons presented regarding costs are not convincing (the boat only costs about 30% of the total costs) and the choice of Farr as the designer is odd. Farr boats have been beaten on this and on the last race by JK boats.

Listen to the questions. There are some interesting ones like: if a boat has a design problem, all boats will have the same problem and there is no way to test sail these boat before the race in what regards the conditions and length of the race. Another interesting one is "how was made the choice of the designer for the boat?" I guess the guy could be more specific and ask why they choose a designer whose boats have not managed to win a single VOR in the last years instead of the one that has won all last VOR races?

...


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: New Volvo 65*



PCP said:


> Another interesting one is "how was made the choice of the designer for the boat?" I guess the guy could be more specific and ask why they choose a designer whose boats have not managed to win a single VOR in the last years instead of the one that has won all last VOR races?
> 
> ...


Guillermo Atadill visited us here in Chile, and I asked him about the new OD VOR and why Farr and not Juan K, and he answered that all was Farr lobbying, very dark business. He is not happy about this decision.


----------



## PCP

*Aspect 40*

we have talke already about Aspect 40, a fast and interesting (narrow ) boat. A nice movie with one racing:






Aspect40


----------



## PCP

*Tour de la France*

Raced in M34 one class boats (Archambaullt)

http://www.gurit.com/files/documents/m34-tour-de-france-a-la-voile-englishpdf.pdf

Le tour is becoming an international event, this year with 16 top teams from many different countries. Nave a look at the teaser and also at some movies from past editions----Hot


----------



## PCP

*Salona 38*

This is a promo movie of a Scandinavian Racing Week, at Croatia 8-15 september.






This means that *there are on the Croatian charter market 10 new Salona 38 with racing specifications*. Not a bad idea as a boat to charter this summer on Croatia


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1260*

Nice movie about the RM 1260 from the sailboat test by Yacht magazine.

RM 1260: Flinker Knickspanter im Exklusiv-Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


----------



## PCP

*La Solitaire du Figaro*

For the ones that like racing, particularly solo racing is good to remember that the "Solitaire du Figaro" is on. This is a true classic where many of the best solo sailors come to compete.

It is not an expensive race, it is raced on Figaro 2 that can be bought used not for much money. However is easy to fill ridiculous on this race given the very high quality of the racers (they are all professionals).

For instance on the first leg Jean Pierre Nicol was only 34th, Anthony Marchand 35th, Lobato 27th, Thomas Ruyant 18th , Jeanne Gregoire 16th, Morvan 12th. All these guys (and ladies) are winners of many races.

The first leg was won by Yann Elies.

Yann EliÃ¨s - WikipÃ©dia

A movie from the start of the race:






Yes, I would say that these guys are all great sailors

.....


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 12.50*

This is time to charter for many. Here another boat that you can charter and it is not the typical charter boat. It seems a lot of fun to me, I mean to charter a Pogo 12.50, on the beautiful Greek waters.

fastsailing.gr - The Yacht - The yacht


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

And the last leg is on, from Lorient to Galway. This one will be fundamental for the 2th place. Puma, Camper and Telefonica are fighting for it. Groupama has a solid lead.

On the race track Telefonica is leading, Camper, Puma and Groupama are following:

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/racetracker/rdc.html


----------



## PCP

*Vor70 guys on the fast lane*

When they where in Lorient Cammas invited the competition to a ride on the fast lane. He invited Chris Nicholson and Mike Sanderson to a ride on his other Groupama. The guys were impressed


----------



## PCP

*La solitaire du Figaro*

Morvan at the head of the race. That was to be expected

Le Figaro - La Solitaire

If you want to know more about this mythical race, were you have some good articles:

Solitaire du Figaro 2012 preview | The Daily Sail

Solitaire du Figaro 2012 leg two preview | The Daily Sail


----------



## edecker

An updated image of the Pogo 50. Looking pretty nice!


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

They are almost there, I mean on the finish line and all leading boats passed Fastnet Rock at minutes to each other.






Camper is leading, Groupama is 2th. He has only to finish in 4th place to win the race, never mind the in port race.

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/racetracker/rdc.html


----------



## PCP

*Oogo 50*



edecker said:


> An updated image of the Pogo 50. Looking pretty nice!


Hi, thanks for posting. Welcome to sailnet and to this thread

That's a nice looking boat. The bow seems different. Any information about the purpose of that shape?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## edecker

*Re: Pogo 50*



PCP said:


> Hi, thanks for posting. Welcome to sailnet and to this thread
> 
> That's a nice looking boat. The bow seems different. Any information about the purpose of that shape?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Everything I know about the Pogo's I have pretty much learned from you and Eric (love to here some updates from his purchase). I have been following those boats and saw some of the 40S2's in Newport for the Atlantic Cup. So I do not know more than they are making steps in the development. I scan Finot's site occasionally but no news there either. The 50 would be my dream cruiser after I develop that multi-million dollar mobile app


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

They needed a 4th place for an overall victory and they come in 2th. The French and Franck Cammas won the VOR in style.

Cammas said: "This is a dream come true. The first book I read was about the withebread..."

It is a first time a rookie team won the race.

Big fight for the first place on this leg between Puma, Groupama and 
Camper.

Camper won the leg and with that probably managed to claim the 2th overall place on the race.






This was a great edition with different leaders and several boats fighting for the victory.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Now that the VOR is almost finished, let's start to look at the Vendee that will start 4 months from now.

Skippers - Vendée Globe

18 guys and a lady are in and more 8 are trying to find a budget. Personally I find quite unfair that Dee Caffari has any problem in finding a budget : How many guys do you know that have made a non stop solo circumnavigation on both directions? With the wind and against the wind? Not many, she is the only girl that had done it, a fearless lady and a great sailor.

Among the ones that are in the majority are French but we have 3 Brits, two Swiss, one Spanish and one Italian.

Among the ones that are still trying to find a budget there are more 4 Brits.

The truth is that there is easier for the French to find a budget simply because sail as a sport is bigger than in any other place, I mean regarding audiences and coverage and that makes it easier to find investors and a budget.

Skippers - Vendée Globe


----------



## PCP

*Capsizing*

Ok, it is not even a sailboat, but great footage with a happy ending. The fisherman was successfully saved by his colleagues.


----------



## PCP

*Global Ocean Race*

This one finished recently and it has the potential to become a major race. On this edition there were not many boats and not really top sailors.

I hope things change on the next edition because the formula seems to make a lot of sense: Inexpensive fast and seaworthy boat (40 class racer) crewed with two guys around the globe with scales.

The movie from the last one was released and it is a nice one:


----------



## PCP

*Tour de la France*

Great images:


----------



## PCP

*Olé!!!!*


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria B one*

In what regards sailing one of the boats that offer more fun for less money is certainly this one:


----------



## PCP

Another boat test with a nice movie on the Grand Soleil 39, this time a British one by Yachtingworld and you know what? Toby Hodges says about what I have been saying about this boat: it is a great boat!

Nimble, beautiful with and easy sea motion and a good cruising interior it will be a delightful boat to sail and will make proud any owner. It is not cheap but if you have the money for it don't miss a test sail: Sailing and living with style, a fast elegant and comfortable style is its motto.


----------



## PCP

*Mod 70 - New york-Brest*

First big ocean race for the Mod70: New York - Brest. Starts today:






MOD 70 Krys Ocean Race from New York to Brest - Preview - Yachts and Yachting Online

http://www.krys-oceanrace.com/en/videos.html


----------



## PCP

*Vor 70*

It is over and the last victory was for Puma that won the Galway in-port race. With that victory Puma was 3th on the race but won the in-port race series. Curiously the one that come in second (in-port races) was Camper and Groupama was only third. Definitively the French are not around the cans racers but ocean racers

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | PUMA pounce to take In-Port honours

The Podium of the VOR: 1st Groupama, 2nd Camper, 3th Puma.

At the middle of the race who would think that the Spanish from Telefonica would not be on the final Podium? Great edition this one VOR. I hope that the next edition, raced on one design boats, will be as interesting.

...

.....


----------



## DiasDePlaya

The new Seascape 27

27proto trials day001 - YouTube


----------



## PCP

*Seascape 27*

It looks as good as the drawings that had been posted on this thread some time ago

Looks like a great coastal cruiser that will be able to do some good results racing. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## PCP

*La Solitaire du Figaro*

Nice sum up on an Australian site:

Sail-World.com : La Solitaire du Figaro - All set for final stage

Beginning of the second leg&#8230;and Morvan winning:











and the racing right now:

Le Figaro - La Solitaire


----------



## PCP

*Cruising: Transat*

Some interesting information about transatlatic cruising:

About 1500 sailboats cross the Atlantic every year. Mostly French (350), British (333), German (199), North American (54), Italian (34) (data from last year).

I had the idea that there were more Americans visiting Europe but it seems that the number of Europeans visiting the American continent is far superior.


----------



## PCP

*Victoire 42RE*

Victoire is managed to escape to bankruptcy and is making a new boat, a modern classic as they call it. I am sure that it is going to be a great boat for the ones that like classical boats.

I hope the market will permit them to survive. They have made great boats and were one of the main Dutch brands on par with Contest.

victoire


----------



## PCP

*Mod 70*

The race: New york - Brest
















Le "Prof." is leading:

Race tracker - Krys Ocean Race

....


----------



## HMoll

PCP said:


> Another boat test with a nice movie on the Grand Soleil 39, this time a British one by Yachtingworld and you know what? Toby Hodges says about what I have been saying about this boat: it is a great boat!
> 
> Nimble, beautiful with and easy sea motion and a good cruising interior it will be a delightful boat to sail and will make proud any owner. It is not cheap but if you have the money for it don't miss a test sail: Sailing and living with style, a fast elegant and comfortable style is its motto.


Actually, it was a poor review for the new GS. I've always respected Hodges' reviews and test comments very much. In this case, he is far from describing a delightful boat to sail, and ends the article with disappointment. Even the editor picked up on the tester's caution, puting sucha a title and using terms as "humbled at the Hamble". Anyone with a deposit must be picking up the phone right away after reading the YW article. I'm sure the factory will address the helm issues pointed out.

Regards to all,

Hans


----------



## PCP

*Round the Island Race*

About a week ago take place one of my favorite races, the Round the Island Race, a race that reunites professionals, amateur racers and cruisers that make a point of making this one.

*1647* boats started the race.

Just look at the images:


----------



## PCP

*Grand Soleil 39*



HMoll said:


> Actually, it was a poor review for the new GS. I've always respected Hodges' reviews and test comments very much. In this case, he is far from describing a delightful boat to sail, and ends the article with disappointment. Even the editor picked up on the tester's caution, puting sucha a title and using terms as "humbled at the Hamble". Anyone with a deposit must be picking up the phone right away after reading the YW article. I'm sure the factory will address the helm issues pointed out.
> Regards to all,
> Hans


I don't understand how you get that impression. The boat tested was the one with the performance package, the racers version, with a bigger mast and more sail, a more nervous boat to maximize performance with a crew and even so:

*Out of her element?*... She certainly looks every bit the Italian performance cruiser. She has minimum wetted surface, a deep T-keel and a high ballast ratio to support a large sail area&#8230;*but how she would cope in our less hospitable waters?*

&#8230;The newspapers were saying that the UK was colder than Iceland with a force 5-6 blowing from the Northeast.

*&#8230;Despite being what I consider to be a classic Med design, The GS 39 surprised me here by coping with these conditions admirably, pointing high, keeping good speed and most notably not slamming on the shop&#8230;provide a soft and comfortable ride through the waves*.

..The close-hauled romp back into Southampton waters was enjoyable and spirited giving us the taste of the agility she promises in flat water, but once again, it paid to be quick with the sheets in a gust , as there is little warning of a rounding up.

The only negative comment he makes is about a too neutral steering and off course that is debatable. Like on a sports car if you have a very sensitive steering you have to watch out not spin the car but if you can handle it the pleasure, effectiveness and swiftness are all positive points. I guess that it is a boat that needs time to adapt too. Anyway that makes it a better racer.

Regarding what you say: *"humbled at the Hamble"*

They say exactly the opposite:

*"Humbled off the Hamble"*. Yes I know the English just phrase things oddly
.
I have read several boat tests of this boat and all said very positive things about it. It would be odd if the British, never minding their more conservative stance, said otherwise.

It is worth to point out the excellent stability curve of this boat with an unusually huge positive stability and very small inverted stability. The AVS is in concordance with that: Almost 140º.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Melrna

Great videos. Beautiful boats. Got my blood flowing this morning.


----------



## APP Mode

Does any of you know these brasilian yachts?

Redirecionando...


----------



## PCP

*Wind 34*

No it comes as a complete surprise and the boat looks good&#8230;Now the information they give is very scarce and bad: No boat design drawings, no technical characteristics, not a word about the way the boat is built&#8230;and everything in Portuguese.

Well, I have not a problem with that but if they want to sell the boat out of Brazil better to have not only decent information but also that information in Spanish and English as well.

Thanks for posting. It seems very interesting. Do you know how many boats they have produced?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## APP Mode

It was a surprise for me. 

I agree with you about the information is very scarce.

I go often to Brasil, but seems that their market is more directed for motorboats.

Jeaneau and other brands have dificults to sale their products to this country because this country has a lot of taxes.

Thats all i know.

Regards


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Grand Soleil 39*



PCP said:


> I don't understand how you get that impression. The boat tested was the one with the performance package, the racers version, with a bigger mast and more sail, a more nervous boat to maximize performance with a crew and even so:
> 
> *Out of her element?*... She certainly looks every bit the Italian performance cruiser. She has minimum wetted surface, a deep T-keel and a high ballast ratio to support a large sail area&#8230;*but how she would cope in our less hospitable waters?*
> 
> &#8230;The newspapers were saying that the UK was colder than Iceland with a force 5-6 blowing from the Northeast.
> 
> *&#8230;Despite being what I consider to be a classic Med design, The GS 39 surprised me here by coping with these conditions admirably, pointing high, keeping good speed and most notably not slamming on the shop&#8230;provide a soft and comfortable ride through the waves*.
> 
> ..The close-hauled romp back into Southampton waters was enjoyable and spirited giving us the taste of the agility she promises in flat water, but once again, it paid to be quick with the sheets in a gust , as there is little warning of a rounding up.
> 
> The only negative comment he makes is about a too neutral steering and off course that is debatable. Like on a sports car if you have a very sensitive steering you have to watch out not spin the car but if you can handle it the pleasure, effectiveness and swiftness are all positive points. I guess that it is a boat that needs time to adapt too. Anyway that makes it a better racer.
> 
> Regarding what you say: *"humbled at the Hamble"*
> 
> They say exactly the opposite:
> 
> *"Humbled off the Hamble"*. Yes I know the English just phrase things oddly
> .
> I have read several boat tests of this boat and all said very positive things about it. It would be odd if the British, never minding their more conservative stance, said otherwise.
> 
> It is worth to point out the excellent stability curve of this boat with an unusually huge positive stability and very small inverted stability. The AVS is in concordance with that: Almost 140º.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


These are the quotes which set a warning tone for me:

"Unlike other recent Grand Soleil models, this boat had so far deprived me of that instant gratifying sensation on the wheel; it felt too neutral. With just the mainsail, we rounded up - not surprising without the balance of a jib - but it then happened again, not once but numerous times during our trial with no warning from the rudder."

From the conclusion:

"The GS39's high ballast ratio and tall rig equals power. I know we were really putting her through her paces, but I'd like a bit more authority over that power personally, rather than the skinny foils Maletto designs for America's Cup boats."

"It's a trade-off those looking for a performance edge must get used to - like a tuned-up family sports saloon, the 39 has plenty of grunt, but if you turn traction control off, a spin out is more likely. So you need to helm on numbers, not feel - and there wasn't any of either - to drive the test boat with her rig set-up in the conditions we had. It must be remembered, though, that there were only three of us aboard to sail this brand new boat for the first time in 25 knots."

"But she failed to endear herself to me and seemed a bit stuck between fulfilling a racing and a cruising brief."

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an awesome machine, and a very desirable one, but this Hodges is clearly pointing character traits which to performamce cruisers, may also be seen as defects.

It's interesting that as readers, we got very different impressions. Hey, maybe we need an Englishman to settle! But to say the least, it validates that Toby Hodges and YW reviews are serious, objective, transparent, and if there are some real concerns to point out about a tested yacht, they will not compromise and say it like it is.

Regards,
Hans


----------



## HMoll

Oh! i just realized you're now an Italian boat sailor! I'm calling you outright biased!!!:laugher. How's that Comet behaving lately? Hope you enjoyed your cruise!


----------



## DiasDePlaya

The Win34 was designed by Nestor Volker, who have a very good name in Argentina. He designed many local champions, their designs has success also here in Chile during the '80s and '90s.

I'm not sure but probably the Win43 is a Volker design too.


----------



## Marsvinet

*Re: Grand Soleil 39*



HMoll said:


> These are the quotes which set a warning tone for me:
> 
> "Unlike other recent Grand Soleil models, this boat had so far deprived me of that instant gratifying sensation on the wheel; it felt too neutral. With just the mainsail, we rounded up - not surprising without the balance of a jib - but it then happened again, not once but numerous times during our trial with no warning from the rudder."
> 
> From the conclusion:
> 
> "The GS39's high ballast ratio and tall rig equals power. I know we were really putting her through her paces, but I'd like a bit more authority over that power personally, rather than the skinny foils Maletto designs for America's Cup boats."
> 
> "It's a trade-off those looking for a performance edge must get used to - like a tuned-up family sports saloon, the 39 has plenty of grunt, but if you turn traction control off, a spin out is more likely. So you need to helm on numbers, not feel - and there wasn't any of either - to drive the test boat with her rig set-up in the conditions we had. It must be remembered, though, that there were only three of us aboard to sail this brand new boat for the first time in 25 knots."
> 
> "But she failed to endear herself to me and seemed a bit stuck between fulfilling a racing and a cruising brief."
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think it's an awesome machine, and a very desirable one, but this Hodges is clearly pointing character traits which to performamce cruisers, may also be seen as defects.
> 
> It's interesting that as readers, we got very different impressions. Hey, maybe we need an Englishman to settle! But to say the least, it validates that Toby Hodges and YW reviews are serious, objective, transparent, and if there are some real concerns to point out about a tested yacht, they will not compromise and say it like it is.
> 
> Regards,
> Hans


Hi Hans,

From reading the full article in the magazine there are a few tings i want to point out.

The boat tested had a performance rig fitted, 1 metre taller than the normal one.

Despite strong winds, they made little effort in reefing her down.


----------



## bjung

*Re: Grand Soleil 39*



HMoll said:


> These are the quotes which set a warning tone for me:
> 
> "Unlike other recent Grand Soleil models, this boat had so far deprived me of that instant gratifying sensation on the wheel; it felt too neutral. With just the mainsail, we rounded up - not surprising without the balance of a jib - but it then happened again, not once but numerous times during our trial with no warning from the rudder."
> 
> From the conclusion:
> 
> "The GS39's high ballast ratio and tall rig equals power. I know we were really putting her through her paces, but I'd like a bit more authority over that power personally, rather than the skinny foils Maletto designs for America's Cup boats."
> 
> "It's a trade-off those looking for a performance edge must get used to - like a tuned-up family sports saloon, the 39 has plenty of grunt, but if you turn traction control off, a spin out is more likely. So you need to helm on numbers, not feel - and there wasn't any of either - to drive the test boat with her rig set-up in the conditions we had. It must be remembered, though, that there were only three of us aboard to sail this brand new boat for the first time in 25 knots."
> 
> "But she failed to endear herself to me and seemed a bit stuck between fulfilling a racing and a cruising brief."
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think it's an awesome machine, and a very desirable one, but this Hodges is clearly pointing character traits which to performamce cruisers, may also be seen as defects.
> 
> It's interesting that as readers, we got very different impressions. Hey, maybe we need an Englishman to settle! But to say the least, it validates that Toby Hodges and YW reviews are serious, objective, transparent, and if there are some real concerns to point out about a tested yacht, they will not compromise and say it like it is.
> 
> Regards,
> Hans


I got the same impression from the video as Hans did. I think the english don't enjoy bashing anyone/anything, and this is propably as critical as Toby will get before turning away advertising $$. 
The reviews I read were similar in respect to the helming issue.
Also, at that price level I would personally opt for a XC 38 or HR 372. Another issue I have with the boat is the 2.4m (2.0m for shoal) draft, great for performance and stability, sucks for cruising, at least for my uses.
However, this should not be a problem in the Med, which Toby thinks would be the appropriate, less challenging cruising grounds for this squirrely sled. 
I definetly got a negative slant from the vid.....
Bernd


----------



## APT

PCP said:


> Not really. I know everything about French leasing, I even had one signed at the Paris boat show but you probably don't know that the rules are going to change this year (it is already on EC law).
> 
> If you are a French it is like that, you will only pay 50% of VAT on the leasing and that means that you can pay the boat in 6 years have the VAT paid and have a boat for a slightly inferior price of what you would get it if you buy the boat immediately to a dealer and paid the VAT at that time.
> 
> Unfortunately that is going to change at the end of this year for the ones that are not French (or Italian in the case of the similar Italian leasing) and the fiscal regime that will be applied will not be the one from the leasing company but the one from the client's country, I mean the one that is paying leasing (the future owner of the boat). That means that I will only pay 50% VAT on 12 rents but I will have to pay 100% VAT on 30 rents.
> 
> Paulo


Dear Paulo 
Congratulations for the quite interesting thread. I have learned a lot in the last months reading very interesting discussions.
I am planning to buy a new boat before the end of this year taking the advantage of the 50% vat reduction on the French leasing. 
I know that rules will be changing by the end of the year but I was informed by the French leasing company that they have found a way of offering the 50% vat reduction on the rents after January 2013 for non-French clients. 
Are you aware of this? They told me that we have to go to France to receive the boat in the presence of a " huissier de Justice". Then the boat can be transported to any European country and can have any flag.


----------



## bjung

Well, I guess Paulo is enjoying outfitting and sailing his new sled. Updates and pics please! 
In the meantime Bavaria is planning the debut of their new Vision 42, and is revamping the Cruiser line (again). Bavaria seems to be very agressive about developing new models (including the already mentioned Bone), so obviously they assume that buyers are standing by. Is the european boatmarket more solid than the US??
Bavaria Yachtbau: Second VISION model ready this autumn
Farr Yacht Design
The Gunfleet 43 was already posted here (sorry Paulo ), but they are also working on a 58 and 68.
Range | Gunfleet World Class Cruising Yachts
Details
I really like the 43, and I think this is about the best interior design I have seen on a 43 footer.
Bernd


----------



## APP Mode

I saw Bavaria web site. There are some interesting videos to see about the new Vision 46 with BAVARIA producer manager, and the new features on this boat, in my opinion are very well planed.

I think that other brands should look to this and try do the same. With " less money" you find there a motivation to buy this boat.

When i say " less money " i mean this brand is in general cheaper.

Nordics brands ( HR, Najad, Nautor Swan, X-Yachts and etc...) just announce new models with their scandinavian high-quality building, but we don't see the implement of new features that can help solo sailors.

Bavaria improved their design. But how does these boats behave in blue water passage making?

Another brand announcement is Hallberg-Rassy with is new 55, that will replace the 54. Cockpit is similar to the 412

Hallberg-Rassy - Yachts - Center Cockpit Boats


----------



## PCP

*Comet 41 s*



bjung said:


> Well, I guess Paulo is enjoying outfitting and sailing his new sled. Updates and pics please!
> ...
> Bernd


Well,I have been to occupied to post (Cres on the background)










But while I am at anchor waiting for the night wind (they give winds up to 60K on the North Adriatic) let me give you Guys some more impressions about the Comet 41 now that I have sailed it for some days.



















First let me point out that given to my cruising style I am not one of those that sail with a light boat. Well, not either one of those that sail with a lot of stuff. Let me clarify this because I think it is important:

I have now a lot of time and I am cruising extensively in an area where a day at a marina costs over 100 euros for a 41ft boat so I want to stay out of Marinas. In fact since I started sailing ( 12 days ago ) I did not visit any and I still have a bit little less than half water tank (400L full), also because I have a salt water tap.

Of course this implies to have a lot of provisions aboard (not always is easy to find a place with a supermarket near and carrying large loads, even with a small shopping trolley is not a piece of cake. To give you an idea I left San Giorgio with 90L of bottled water, 10L of Beer and 10L of wine. You can imagine the rest of the groceries, tins, preserves and fruits. So, normal stuff for a cruiser that wants to stay out of Marinas (I am at Mali Losinj today, the first Marina in 17 days).

Regarding mods on the boat, besides a new 20 Kg Spade (that is being very useful right now) I only improved the electrical system and Batteries.

Expensive stuff but I can say right now that it was very well spent money. Basically I changed the existent calcium Batteries for Mastervolt AGM increasing the capacity of the in house bank from 300 to 375 Ah, changed the alternator (60 A) for one with 120A. Also mounted a Mastervolt controller and a Mastervolt battery mate. I am very satisfied with the set-up. Basically I go out of port or shelter on engine, let it run 20m and when arriving where I want to stay take the sails a bit earlier and motor another 20m and that is enough for the day. I have to say that I have leds all over the boat and that even so I use a lot portable solar lamps (IKEA). Most of the consumption is due to the refrigerator.




























So about sailing: First of all let me tell you that I am not a great sailor, I mean I learned to sail alone (still learning) and when I pick a new boat, that is a powerful boat I want to learn the boat slowly and not go full blast right away. I sail alone with my wife that is more a cook than a sailor and that scares easily&#8230;and the last thing I want is to scare her especially now that she is making an effort to learn something about sailing.

First days the wind was weak and I could find out that the boat (as I expected) satisfied my needs. I am sailing with a main and a small 100% genoa (I have on the boat a 135%), good Mylar sails, and even so I can sail with 4/5K wind and with 7/8K the boat sails around and over 7K, loaded and all. That was just one of the main things I wanted from a sailboat and it is right on the spot.

Regarding max speed, it is easy to go over 8K and near 9. I have not reached yet 9k. I guess the weight has more importance when going over hull speed and also as I said, I don't want to scare my wife. But speed is not only main speed and on the only two occasions I had "competition" while sailing the boat behaved properly. On the first, close on the wind I left fast behind a Bavaria 46 (44?) that in some hours was just a tiny speck on the horizon and on the second one I could hold ground to a light trimaran Corsair 27. True, he finished ahead but barely 200m, on a 15Nm leg it is not much. The wind was about 10K true. I could go closer to the wind and If it was always like that I would have come clearly ahead, but after turning a cape it was full blast all the way (90ºwind) and he could go a bit faster (I was doing 8.5K).

After that I had a nice day with downwind sailing with not too much wind. The boat glide effortlessly between 6.5 and 8.7 leaving all the other sailboats behind including an Hanse 400 that was motorsailing.

All nice in what regards sailing? Well no. The first time I had to reef I found out that the previous owner had the reefing points all wrong and the best I could have was a baggy main. Even so the boat was going well (7.5K) but I am sure it can be a lot better. I have remade all the reefing and put a third one. I have tried the first and the second one and the shape of the sail is just nice so next time I need them things will go a lot better.

The traveler is just beautiful to handle but the winches to control the mainsail (German sheeting) are just too ahead to be comfortable to handle them from the steering wheel, at least without going over it (it is a big one) to the other side,. As a plus one of the winches is an electrical one and makes a fast regulation a breeze, but again the commands are away from the wheel. I have a remote control for them but I had not time to play with it.

When hard pressed and near the limit the boat gives plenty of warning. It is funny because the steering seems lost but then if you pull hard the wheel you regain full control again. It is so easy that I did not yet broach the boat. But with all that sail with gusty wind you have to reef or have someone at the main to let go and catch again. Well, North Crostia is the place for gusting wind /I never saw anything like that, the normal situation is an average wind with gusts twice that wind) The traveler is just not enough. I guess I have to learn how to steer the boat on the inside side of the wheel to be able to do all by myself.

Comparing with the Salona 41 that I sailed last year I would say this one is a bit stiffer ( the guys from Salona can put more ballast on the boat if you want) but the sensations are very similar.

Unfortunately the comparisons with the Salona go sour in what regards the engine. The Salona has a Yanmar 54hp that had plenty grunt and power. The boat could make 8K, the fast cruising speed was 7K and at 2000RPM the boat was making over 6K. On this one, a Lombardini with 40hp, at 2000Rpm the boat is making 4.5K, to get to 5.5K you have to go to 2400RPM and at max power the boat barely goes over 6K. That's really the weak point on this boat. I don't know if that has to do something with the propeller (a folding max prop) but certainly has to do with the power. Those extra 14hp make a huge difference.

Next year I will try to have the money to mount a Burton's autoprop to see if I can at least have some more speed at 2000rpm, but I am sure that will be only an improvement not a cure.

Continuing that comparison with the Salona, I would say that all around this is a better quality boat (it is also more expensive) but I would say that in many aspects that will from Salona to learn with their clients and improve continually the boats gives fruits that lack on this boat. This boat has a very nice interior with quality all around but then it has also many little stupid details that should have been modified with the boat production. Some examples:
You cannot jump the outside "door" when it is closed. If you had bad weather and had it closed you would have to take half of it away to pass to the interior. The lock is so odd that my wife finds it difficult to open it from the interior. The boat doesn't have any handlebars on the outside and on the interior it lacks a decent sea berth. It has the space for it but is just badly designed. The saloon table is a nice fixed one, but it prevents (even to my wife that is small) a decent access to the interior places. It would not be expensive to design a system to permit sliding the table one way or another to gain an easy access to the interior places.

These are just some examples I could give a lot more. But of course this is a semi custom boat so if you buy it new you can order a lot of changes if you really know what you want.

On the positive side the interior is just nice and cosy and the boat offers a better storage space, a very good weight distribution and also a bigger black water deposit.










Well, just the first impressions. I will post more about it when I know the boat better. Overall my wife and me are very satisfied with what we've got.

Best regards to all,

Paulo


----------



## PCP

APT said:


> Dear Paulo
> ..the French leasing company that they have found a way of offering the 50% vat reduction on the rents after January 2013 for non-French clients.
> Are you aware of this? They told me that we have to go to France to receive the boat in the presence of a " huissier de Justice". Then the boat can be transported to any European country and can have any flag.


Hi!, Yes, but I wanted more, I wanted to sail the boat out of community waters for some years (Turkey, Cyprus, Croatia, Brazil) and pay no VAT at all. It was possible, now it seems it is not.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## HMoll

*Paulo's Propeller*

Paulo,

First, that's a beautiful boat. Enjoy! About the engine/prop combination, I'll share a short story. My J/35 has a 20hp Yanmar, and came with a 2-blade classic feathering Max Prop. It made 5.5 kts in flat water at best, and the vibration/cavitation was just not acceptable. I had it taken out, polished, balanced (found it perfect), and tried two other pitch combinations. (It takes some pencil, paper and patience. Manual can be found online). Results: same. I considered repowering to 30hp. Cruising with a weak engine (I confess to motorsailing whenever were doing 5kts or less on sail!) was not an option, and J Boats had fitted the J/35 with 30hp on later models. Here's the unpaid advertisement: I read some articles and ended up calling Flex-O-Fold. Explained the situation, and they recommended that I try their 3-blade, with slightly higher pitch on the 20hp (+1"), in case I decide to upgrade engine later. Result: It worked beautifully. Super-smooth operation, no vibration/cavitation. And GAINED almost 2kts!!!. I rebuilt my 20hp, saved some cash, and can go 7.0kts+ on flat water, or cruise @ 6kts. And I cruise with heavy load of equipment, etc. 40hp seems a bit on the weak side for 41', but if your're looking for speed when no wind or motorsailing, study your propeller options. You have a racing prop installed right now, meant to be sleek when off, not powerful when on, in my experience.

Oh, and BTW, this thread is in a coma! We miss you, but your sailing is well deserved! Cheers! Hans.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Paulo's Propeller*



HMoll said:


> Paulo,
> 
> First, that's a beautiful boat. Enjoy! About the engine/prop combination, I'll share a short story. My J/35 has a 20hp Yanmar, and came with a 2-blade classic feathering Max Prop. It made 5.5 kts in flat water at best, and the vibration/cavitation was just not acceptable. I had it taken out, polished, balanced (found it perfect), and tried two other pitch combinations. (It takes some pencil, paper and patience. Manual can be found online). Results: same. I considered repowering to 30hp. Cruising with a weak engine (I confess to motorsailing whenever were doing 5kts or less on sail!) was not an option, and J Boats had fitted the J/35 with 30hp on later models. Here's the unpaid advertisement: I read some articles and ended up calling Flex-O-Fold. Explained the situation, and they recommended that I try their 3-blade, with slightly higher pitch on the 20hp (+1"), in case I decide to upgrade engine later. Result: It worked beautifully. Super-smooth operation, no vibration/cavitation. And GAINED almost 2kts!!!. I rebuilt my 20hp, saved some cash, and can go 7.0kts+ on flat water, or cruise @ 6kts. And I cruise with heavy load of equipment, etc. 40hp seems a bit on the weak side for 41', but if your're looking for speed when no wind or motorsailing, study your propeller options. You have a racing prop installed right now, meant to be sleek when off, not powerful when on, in my experience.
> 
> Oh, and BTW, this thread is in a coma! We miss you, but your sailing is well deserved! Cheers! Hans.


Thanks Hans

It is nice to know that you had problems with a Max prop and were able to solve them. Mine is a three blade (Max prop) but I am sure that with an autoprop I would get better results, probably a bit faster over all but mainly a lot faster at 2000rpm. Next year I will mount one.

Regarding sailing, for the first time in my live I have TIME and lots of nice places around, so I only motorsail when the speed goes down 2K.

But when I had only 45 days for sailing and travelled far whenever the speed was going down 5.5k I motorsailed so I can understand you quite well.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## copacabana

Parabens pelo barcão novo Paulo!

Very nice boat!


----------



## PCP

APP Mode said:


> I saw Bavaria web site. There are some interesting videos to see about the new Vision 46 with BAVARIA producer manager, and the new features on this boat, in my opinion are very well planed.
> 
> I think that other brands should look to this and try do the same. With " less money" you find there a motivation to buy this boat.
> 
> When i say " less money " i mean this brand is in general cheaper.
> 
> Nordics brands ( HR, Najad, Nautor Swan, X-Yachts and etc...) just announce new models with their scandinavian high-quality building, but we don't see the implement of new features that can help solo sailors.
> 
> Bavaria improved their design. But how does these boats behave in blue water passage making?
> 
> Another brand announcement is Hallberg-Rassy with is new 55, that will replace the 54. Cockpit is similar to the 412
> 
> Hallberg-Rassy - Yachts - Center Cockpit Boats


Yes, I think the Bavaria Vision is a better boat in what regards bluewater cruising than the "normal" cruising version and a boat that can be adapted to extensive cruising.

But I don't agree with you in what regards HR not implementing new features that permits the boats to be solo sailed. Fact is that even the big ones can be solo sailed.

Recently a lady journalist tested for Yachting world the HR 64 and she solo sailed the boat and as you can see the conditions were demanding.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

Congrats on the sled PCP. Looks like a nice hull shape overall for all point sailing. Glad to hear you finally found a boat for your travels and it sure beats the standard "plastic is fantastic" rigs from the majors.

Never sailed on one but have done a walk-around and looked to be nice. Inside it looks fairly small for a 40 but with 2 and the occasional friends, not a problem I imagine. 

Enjoy yourself out there!


----------



## bjung

Thanks for the updates and pics, Paulo. Beautiful boat! I suspect the motoring performance can be improved with a differrent prop. The challenge will be to get the increased performance without overworking the 40hp engine. I am sure this has already been addressed by other Comet 41 owners.
Happy sledding!


----------



## AlaskaMC

I just can't handle this thread sitting here sad and alone while Paulo is off cruising in his sweet new boat. So, as I am here in the great white north and pilot houses are definitely on my list of possibilities, lets check out the new proposed offering from Sirus, a new 40 footer they are planning to splash in 2014. They are proposing many different configurations and asking customers and others to voice their opinions on what they would want. Here are a few drawings...

















and









Sure would be an ideal boat for up here in Alaska and beyond. Here is the writeup from Sirus on the planning of the boat.

Sirius-Werft Pln | 40 DS | 40 DS

Come on everyone, lets get some new boats up here and keep this thread going strong!


----------



## Mr W

*Dragonfly 32*

Hi Paulo,

You seem get on quite well! I´m glad to hear you´re satisfied with your boat, it looks fantastic!

I haven´t posted in a while, I´ve been mostly away for more than a month now. Made one trip to Denmark to test sail the new Dragonfly 32, which I´ve posted about earlier. It was launched in late June. Here is a little video (Yep, that´s me by the tiller!):






The boat is really nice, feels very big for a 32 footer. We had light winds during the test sail, around 8-10 knots of wind. We seemed to go as fast as the wind during the whole test sail. In a gust the wind increased to about 12-14 knots. Top speed of the day, during this gust, was over 13 knots.

As I said, it´s a big boat and also heavy for a trimaran. Around 3,400kg I think, and this requires a lot of sail. While reaching we used mainsail (57sqm) and code 0 (68sqm). You could really feel the raw power when the gust hit.

We sailed for about 1,5 hours, Jens from Dragonfly did most of the sail handling. The solution for the main sheet and track was a bit tricky, with both lines lead to the same winches. I would probably try to find another solution for this. Where I sail we have very shifty wind angles and need to sheet in/out a lot and also change sheet postition on the track. Otherwise there was not much to complain about. Of course the boat is not as lively as some lighter/less comfortable trimarans.

The interior is huge compared to other trimarans, about the same size as the Dragonfly 35 and a lot bigger than the Dragonfly 28. Very nice solutions, I would choose teak trim instead of maple though. Makes me think of cheap furniture from IKEA...




























I haven´t yet had time to test sail my mothers new HR 310, but when I do I will write about it as well!

Cheers!

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Comet 41*



bb74 said:


> Congrats on the sled PCP. Looks like a nice hull shape overall for all point sailing. Glad to hear you finally found a boat for your travels and it sure beats the standard "plastic is fantastic" rigs from the majors.
> 
> Never sailed on one but have done a walk-around and looked to be nice. Inside it looks fairly small for a 40 but with 2 and the occasional friends, not a problem I imagine.
> 
> Enjoy yourself out there!


Thanks bb74,

I am still discovering the boat slowly since I am sailing only with my wife that for the first time is trying to learn something about sailing and I don't want to scare her off.

Yes the boat is a very good upwind boat (if we consider modern relatively beamy boats). It is not beamy for a modern 41ft (3.9m) and has nice fine entries. Two days ago to the despair of my wife (that got seasick) I had the opportunity to see how the boat performed close upwind: 20 to 25 headwinds, sea 4 with those nasty 1.5/2m short waves that come one after the other. I sailed all the time close winded (less than 30 apparent) and the boat was doing 5.5 on GPS against a strong current (maybe 6 or 6.5 over the water), without slamming.

In what regards my needs it come out with flying colors. I had a certain tendency to go against the wind, I never understood why, and I really wanted a boat that could do better than the Bavaria or that kind of mass production cruiser boats. They are overall good sailing boats except on these conditions. My Bavaria that had a big draft, top cruising sails and a performance rig would not make more than 3.0/3.5K on those conditions and slammed a lot. These boats have not just the power to cope with the conditions. I guess that was the reason that on that day and on that heading I was the only boat sailing.

Regarding space, well, in what regards the size of the saloon you are right. I would say this is a 4 person boats, with maybe more two kids, but the galley is big and the storage space is amazing. Just to give you an idea on the forward sail locker I have a storm jib and a 135% genoa plus 6 fenders. On the stern big locker I have more two fenders and a lot of spare space.

On the interior the storage space and the distribution of the weight is also very good. The battery bank is on the center of the boat, over the keel and on top of it has storage space and a seat and the two big water tanks are on the back of the boat leaving lots of storage space ahead. The chain locker has 75m of 10mm chain and is not full.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Thanks for the updates and pics, Paulo. Beautiful boat! I suspect the motoring performance can be improved with a differrent prop. The challenge will be to get the increased performance without overworking the 40hp engine. I am sure this has already been addressed by other Comet 41 owners.
> Happy sledding!


Thanks

Well, two days ago I got not a perfect wind and sea but at least one that I could enjoy even if the waves were too nasty for my wife.

The wind was between 14/22K, too much downwind to be perfect without a spinnaker and the waves were big for the med and on the side. Four hours between 7.5 and 10k put a big smile on my face. Of course the boat could carry a lot more sail - I am only using a jib and the main - not properly a good configuration for downwind sailing.

I think it is time to try the 135% genoa (if I can convince my wife). She has a point: this year has been a particularly windy one over here with gale warnings almost every day. For tomorrow there is one with the Bora blowing between 30 and 45K.

Regards
Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dragonfly 32*



Mr W said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> You seem get on quite well! I´m glad to hear you´re satisfied with your boat, it looks fantastic!
> 
> I haven´t posted in a while, I´ve been mostly away for more than a month now. Made one trip to Denmark to test sail the new Dragonfly 32, which I´ve posted about earlier. It was launched in late June. Here is a little video (Yep, that´s me by the tiller!):
> 
> Dragonfly 32 Supreme - YouTube
> 
> The boat is really nice, feels very big for a 32 footer. We had light winds during the test sail, around 8-10 knots of wind. We seemed to go as fast as the wind during the whole test sail. In a gust the wind increased to about 12-14 knots. Top speed of the day, during this gust, was over 13 knots.
> 
> As I said, it´s a big boat and also heavy for a trimaran. Around 3,400kg I think, and this requires a lot of sail. While reaching we used mainsail (57sqm) and code 0 (68sqm). You could really feel the raw power when the gust hit.
> 
> We sailed for about 1,5 hours, Jens from Dragonfly did most of the sail handling. The solution for the main sheet and track was a bit tricky, with both lines lead to the same winches. I would probably try to find another solution for this. Where I sail we have very shifty wind angles and need to sheet in/out a lot and also change sheet postition on the track. Otherwise there was not much to complain about. Of course the boat is not as lively as some lighter/less comfortable trimarans.
> 
> The interior is huge compared to other trimarans, about the same size as the Dragonfly 35 and a lot bigger than the Dragonfly 28. Very nice solutions, I would choose teak trim instead of maple though. Makes me think of cheap furniture from IKEA...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven´t yet had time to test sail my mothers new HR 310, but when I do I will write about it as well!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> //Mr W


Now, that is a lovely boat and if you have the money for it go ahead and please invite me for a ride.

I agree, the boat looks big for a 32ft trimaran and has more than enough space for coastal cruising.

Scare us off: What is the price of a decent equipped boat?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Pilot saloons*



AlaskaMC said:


> I just can't handle this thread sitting here sad and alone while Paulo is off cruising in his sweet new boat. So, as I am here in the great white north and pilot houses are definitely on my list of possibilities, lets check out the new proposed offering from Sirus, a new 40 footer they are planning to splash in 2014. They are proposing many different configurations and asking customers and others to voice their opinions on what they would want. Here are a few drawings...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure would be an ideal boat for up here in Alaska and beyond. Here is the writeup from Sirus on the planning of the boat.
> 
> Sirius-Werft Pln | 40 DS | 40 DS
> 
> Come on everyone, lets get some new boats up here and keep this thread going strong!


Hi Alaska,

Thanks for the contribution.

Yes, they are around that boat for several years now. With all that planning and sailor's contributions I bet it will be a great boat and also an expensive one.

Check out also the other Nordic pilot saloons: Cr Yachts has a new one, Regina de Vindo has a nice 35 and 40ft and Nordship has a full line of new boats. If I had the money for one of those babies and sailed on a cold climate I guess I would chose a Nordship. Remarkably fast and good sailing boats with a great overall quality. Not as detailed as a Sirius however.

There are other interesting and different options, with Southerly, Nordborg and C yachts, not to mention the most known nordic one that just sleeped my mind.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

*Pogo 50*

Nice... 



















Eric, do you have those numbers regarding your boat yet?

Kind regards,
Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Dragonfly 32*



PCP said:


> Scare us off: What is the price of a decent equipped boat?


Well.... I haven´t seen the complete price list yet, but the touring version base price is EUR 205,900 ex VAT so I guess base price for the supreme version (which I tested, higher mast) is around EUR 220,000 ex VAT. Fully equipped it would be at least EUR 260,000 ex VAT I guess. Worth it? I haven´t figured that out yet! I´m still considering the Dragonfly 28 as an alternative, although alot smaller. The Pogos are also still on my short list as well, need to try one of those too I guess

Regards,
Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Croatia*

Hi guys,

A bit out of the thread, but I know that some of you charter in Croatia, so, after one month and a half sailing in Croatia, a little advice: Avoid central Croatia, specially the Islands, they are overcrowded with everybody looking for a mooring or anchor spot before 3.00 in the afternoon and when you think that there is no more place for anyone there is a guy that is going to put the boat just over yours...terrible.

In the North, a lot less people, almost no charter boats and better sailors with their own boats, more wind, less expensive, in the South (near Dubrovnick and in the Islands), less people and more beautiful Islands. I really don't understand why people prefer to sail the desert and bald Kornati than Elaphiti Islands. Beautiful Island towns and plenty of green. My favorite place is probably the little town on South Sipan, Sudurad. Almost nobody on the anchorage and the Island was almost without tourists when the last boat left. Perfect dinner by the sea.

Lopud is also nearly perfect without cars and with beautiful mountain tracks.

There you have, I hope it is useful to somebvody. Today I am in Cavtat, the Russian Croatian city, I mean, in the port only huge Russian motorboats. Tomorrow I'll be out of Croatia, sailing to Montenegro and Greece.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## APP Mode

Interesting


----------



## PCP

Sailing in Montenegro. Expensive to enter (140 € for a boat over 12m , for one week ) but what a marvel! Only big motorboats on the quays, very few sailboats and you can anchor where you want without someone coming to ask you money or saying you cannot be there.

I am in Kotor. Perfect anchorage, incredible city, World Heritage, (google for it). The only problem will be to go away. My wife has decided we stay one more day.

Four boats on anchorage, one of them is American. Met the guys, nice people. Lots of boats with American flag but I guess they are Russian or Serbian boats

Regards

Paulo

PS:Here the women are beautiful ...!!!!


----------



## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> Sailing in Montenegro. Expensive to enter (140 € for a boat over 12m , for one week ) but what a marvel! Only big motorboats on the quays, very few sailboats and you can anchor where you want without someone coming to ask you money or saying you cannot be there.
> 
> I am in Kotor. Perfect anchorage, incredible city, World Heritage, (google for it). The only problem will be to go away. My wife has decided we stay one more day.
> 
> Four boats on anchorage, one of them is American. Met the guys, nice people. Lots of boats with American flag but I guess they are Russian or Serbian boats
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo
> 
> *PS:Here the women are beautiful ...!!!!*


Pics or it didn't happen! You lucky bastard!


----------



## Mr W

*Dragonfly 28 Sport*



Mr W said:


> I´m still considering the Dragonfly 28 as an alternative, although alot smaller.


So, yesterday I was out on a test sail with the Dragonfly 28. There was a 8-10 knots breeze with gusts around 12 knots to start with, flat water. I sailed with the swedish Dragonfly represantative, only the two of us.

Started with main (44 sqm) and jib (24 sqm) on a beam reach with speeds around 7-8 knots. We rolled out the code 0 (45 sqm) and speed increased to around 9-12 knots.

Wind then increased to 10-12 knots with 14 in the gusts and we gybed back and hoisted the asymetric spi (105 sqm) on a broad reach, doing 10-12 knots steady, with our top speed of the day at over 14 knots. At this point the boat feels absolutely wonderful, it flies over the water and the ride is super smooth! I could go on forever! 

We then turned back upwind, again with main and jib. I can´t say for sure but I think we were tacking over 85-90 degrees, doing 8-9,5 knots of boatspeed, sailing very upright in comfort.

Then it was time to end the test sail and we headed back home to the harbour. This boat is so versatile. Close to the harbour we folded the boat in a couple of minutes, decreasing beam from 6,5 to 2,5 meters. Absolutely amazing folding system on these boats!

The inside of the boat is a bit smallish, alot smaller than the 32, but still very thought through. The v-berth is quite beamy actually, should sleep two adults without problem. The aft bunk underneath the cockpit is a bit small, only 1 meter wide. I think it will suite the kids well, they are still small. It is possible to sleep on both sides in the saloon as well, but passage to the toilet and v-berth is on the starboard side of the saloon table so it´s a bit inconvenient to use the starboard bunk.

The optional cockpit tent is really nice! It creates another room on the boat. Very important I think on such a small boat. The cockpit is pretty roomy especially since it has no main sheet track. Six people can sit in comfort with the tent up.

There is a two burner stove and a sink in the galley and some shelves and lockers. The fridge is under the raised floor on the port side of the saloon table and is good sized.

Storage for clothes and other items is at first sight a bit inadequate, but look closer and there is acutally some storage space under the bunks and some other places. You can´t bring your whole wardrobe but I think that for my family storage space might just be enough. Sails etc can be stored in the floats.

The overall quality and finish seems high and even though the boat is foldable it still feels very rigid when sailing. There was a Honda 15hp outboard which was more than enough for this 2,000 kg boat. It was raised and lowered by pushing a button, which is not possible with the 10hp standard engine. A tiller link made maneuvering very easy.

Here are a couple of videos of this boat, I think one of them was published earlier on this thread:






I woke up this morning, still with a smile on my face. I think this boat will be hard to beat! 

Cheers!

Mr W


----------



## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Pics or it didn't happen! You lucky bastard!


HI Smack,

You will have pictures when I am back at home because internet here are really slow and I cannot get the pictures loaded. Pictures in October I promise.

A rectification about Montenegro: Kotor is great and some other small coves but the Police and customs stink: They think they are not there to help you but to control you. A big difference in what regards most European countries: It stinks.

I am at Korfu, Greece. First night after a 26 hour passage from Budva to Errikousa - Nice place to anchor with an wonderful smell (herbs) and today I am eating very well at a Taverna in Ormus Kalami, a nice cove in Corfu (wonderful Uzo).

About the boat, with small front sail (100 genoa) and without downwind sail, going butterfly I can get 7.5/ 8.5K deadwind, with 18/20 wind: Nice

Today with 14 to 16k at 90 degrees, 8.5 Knots and in a way that did not scare my wife (20 degrees heel).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dragonfly 28 Sport*



Mr W said:


> So, yesterday I was out on a test sail with the Dragonfly 28. There was a 8-10 knots breeze with gusts around 12 knots to start with, flat water. I sailed with the swedish Dragonfly represantative, only the two of us.
> 
> Started with main (44 sqm) and jib (24 sqm) on a beam reach with speeds around 7-8 knots. We rolled out the code 0 (45 sqm) and speed increased to around 9-12 knots.
> 
> Wind then increased to 10-12 knots with 14 in the gusts and we gybed back and hoisted the asymetric spi (105 sqm) on a broad reach, doing 10-12 knots steady, with our top speed of the day at over 14 knots. At this point the boat feels absolutely wonderful, it flies over the water and the ride is super smooth! I could go on forever!
> 
> We then turned back upwind, again with main and jib. I can´t say for sure but I think we were tacking over 85-90 degrees, doing 8-9,5 knots of boatspeed, sailing very upright in comfort.
> 
> Then it was time to end the test sail and we headed back home to the harbour. This boat is so versatile. Close to the harbour we folded the boat in a couple of minutes, decreasing beam from 6,5 to 2,5 meters. Absolutely amazing folding system on these boats!
> 
> The inside of the boat is a bit smallish, alot smaller than the 32, but still very thought through. The v-berth is quite beamy actually, should sleep two adults without problem. The aft bunk underneath the cockpit is a bit small, only 1 meter wide. I think it will suite the kids well, they are still small. It is possible to sleep on both sides in the saloon as well, but passage to the toilet and v-berth is on the starboard side of the saloon table so it´s a bit inconvenient to use the starboard bunk.
> 
> The optional cockpit tent is really nice! It creates another room on the boat. Very important I think on such a small boat. The cockpit is pretty roomy especially since it has no main sheet track. Six people can sit in comfort with the tent up.
> 
> There is a two burner stove and a sink in the galley and some shelves and lockers. The fridge is under the raised floor on the port side of the saloon table and is good sized.
> 
> Storage for clothes and other items is at first sight a bit inadequate, but look closer and there is acutally some storage space under the bunks and some other places. You can´t bring your whole wardrobe but I think that for my family storage space might just be enough. Sails etc can be stored in the floats.
> 
> The overall quality and finish seems high and even though the boat is foldable it still feels very rigid when sailing. There was a Honda 15hp outboard which was more than enough for this 2,000 kg boat. It was raised and lowered by pushing a button, which is not possible with the 10hp standard engine. A tiller link made maneuvering very easy.
> 
> Here are a couple of videos of this boat, I think one of them was published earlier on this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I woke up this morning, still with a smile on my face. I think this boat will be hard to beat!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Mr W


I have said it alreradY: Buy the dammed boat and invite me to a test sail. Ask for a discount because after and I am going to test it and I am going to love it, I am sure and after all this thread has more than an half of a million hits, all people interested in modern fast boats...so free publicity deserves a discount

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi everyone,
It has been a while since I was active on the thread. I have gone through all the 100 pages or so created since my last visit and want to share with you some more experience from my Opium 39 bought last year and located on the Swedish west coast.

Basic impression is as I wrote last year, after first season. As I feared you need to go the extreme, if I may say so, set up of a Pogo to be able to reach the figures Eric is qouting from his 12.50. I often get questions from people on the quay if the boat start planing early and to be honest, it does not. Basically you need big waves and a big gennaker in 20 knots + wind to start planing. So very much the same as any performance cruiser. But on the other hand we have so much fun sailing it anyway. As pointed out by Paulo, the feel of the boat is so crisp, like a Porsche, not a dull BMW and so comfortable so in the end you always arrive earlier than expected and with no bigger effort or problems.

Thanks to the twin rudders and good hull shape (?) you are always in control and it never stand on it's nose, as many modern wide beamed boats, but instead lifts is nose and take off, leaning on the aft leeward corner of the hull. 

We try to find boats to compete with but always ends up with loosing them as tiny dots at the horizon behind us. Still without any magical numbers on the instruments but with a very high average speed due to good control and efficient set up. We also find the boat quite good at pointing, contrary to Erics note on the Pogo, both in low and high winds, but of course perhaps not as good as a competent sailed pure performance cruiser.

Switched to a bigger gennaker (130 sqm) this year and it is a very good size for the boat. 

We still marvel at the excellent storage space and the very good look out of the boat through low and big cabin top windows and even level between cabin sole and cockpit.

So in summary, it does not plane very easily, at least not loaded with windlasses, bikes, outboards, dingy, bow thruster, inlines, beer, wine etc. But it shurely beats any Xp38, Arcona 400, Dehler 41 or other similar in my books, taken into consideration the whole package. As my fellow countrymen Mr W seems to think, my closest alternative, perhaps besides the new JFK 38 would be a Dragonfly.

Regards, Anders


----------



## PCP

*Opium 39, Solaris 37.*



JAndersB said:


> Hi everyone,
> It has been a while since I was active on the thread. I have gone through all the 100 pages or so created since my last visit and want to share with you some more experience from my Opium 39 bought last year and located on the Swedish west coast.
> 
> Basic impression is as I wrote last year, after first season. As I feared you need to go the extreme, if I may say so, set up of a Pogo to be able to reach the figures Eric is qouting from his 12.50. I often get questions from people on the quay if the boat start planing early and to be honest, it does not. Basically you need big waves and a big gennaker in 20 knots + wind to start planing. So very much the same as any performance cruiser. But on the other hand we have so much fun sailing it anyway. As pointed out by Paulo, the feel of the boat is so crisp, like a Porsche, not a dull BMW and so comfortable so in the end you always arrive earlier than expected and with no bigger effort or problems.
> 
> Thanks to the twin rudders and good hull shape (?) you are always in control and it never stand on it's nose, as many modern wide beamed boats, but instead lifts is nose and take off, leaning on the aft leeward corner of the hull.
> 
> We try to find boats to compete with but always ends up with loosing them as tiny dots at the horizon behind us. Still without any magical numbers on the instruments but with a very high average speed due to good control and efficient set up. We also find the boat quite good at pointing, contrary to Erics note on the Pogo, both in low and high winds, but of course perhaps not as good as a competent sailed pure performance cruiser.
> 
> Switched to a bigger gennaker (130 sqm) this year and it is a very good size for the boat.
> 
> We still marvel at the excellent storage space and the very good look out of the boat through low and big cabin top windows and even level between cabin sole and cockpit.
> 
> So in summary, it does not plane very easily, at least not loaded with windlasses, bikes, outboards, dingy, bow thruster, inlines, beer, wine etc. But it shurely beats any Xp38, Arcona 400, Dehler 41 or other similar in my books, taken into consideration the whole package. As my fellow countrymen Mr W seems to think, my closest alternative, perhaps besides the new JFK 38 would be a Dragonfly.
> 
> Regards, Anders


Hi Anders,

You have been so long away that I was worried:i have recommended that boat to you and I was affraid something was wrong. Glad to know that you and the family like the boat and suits your lifestyle.

Regarding what you say about the boat, it meets my opionion except that story about beating a XP 38 (or a similar boat). You will go faster downwind but upwind, specially with some wind and waves, the XP will go away sailing more comfortably.

By the way I have read a test sail of the new Solaris 37 on a French magazine (voile and Voiliers) and as you know the French hate to say good things about Italian boats. What they say also confirms my opinion about the boat: Not as fast as a XP38, but a lot of speed in style. They say as a conclusion:

"An impecable compromise: With an interior space of a cruiser boat and performances of a race boat the Solaris 37 is directed to demanding owners that don't want to lose in comfort nor speed. Easy to sail by a couple it is a very attractive sailboat but the very high building quality doesn't make us forget its high price. "

Now if you have the money (the boat tested costs with VAT about 350 000€) that could be an ideal boat for most couples,specially the ones that sail a lot upwind

Some speeds with the standard small front sail (Jib):

5k wind at 50º: 4.3K

10K wind at 70º: 7K

14K wind at 70º: 8K

11K wind at 50º: 7.5K

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Hi W,

It seems to me that the Dragonfly 32 is too expensive for you and I find the 28 a bit cramped for cruising.

Have a look at this one:

Advancecruising C329 Trimaran Repliable Transportable Aluminium

Aluminum Carbon boat with enough space for cruising. Interesting concept. Not as fast as the 28 but maybe fast enough at a very interesting price.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
after all time spent evaluating boats I kind of wanted to spend my time sailing . By the way, congratulations to your boat choise, I hope you enjoy your cruise. I myself just sailed some 35 Nm in 4 hours and 14-16 knots of wind from 90 degrees TWA from Gothenbourg to the big in water boat show at the Hallberg-Rassy yard. Among other boats the new RM 1260 is here. 

Anorher intersting notice from the big Tjörn Runt race that took place last weekend (around 430 boats took part) is that the new H-R 412 won it's class and was 8th overall (with furling main). Overall winner and 3 more of the top ten boats where First 40. 

Regards, Anders


----------



## daviid

*Hanse 345*

Hi Folks

It has been a while but I am still a regular visitor to this forum. My focus has become more boat specific so I spend a lot more time on the Hanse owners forum as a Hanse 350 owner. It is an amazing resource for anyone new to sailing and covers a range of topics that are boat specific or general in nature.

Which brings me to the purpose of this post. Hanse will be premiering a new boat that is to replace the Hanse 355 which replaced the Hanse 350 called the Hanse 345 at the Southampton Boat show. I don't think I can upload an image of the new boat from my iPad so have a look at this link. It is a stunning looking boat IMHO
Hanse Yachts

My thoughts on the new Hanse 345

LOA/LWL- 10.40/9,50

Slightly shorter than the H350. Longer waterline length favours the 350.

Beam - 3.50

Slightly less beamy than H350 whose beam is 3.55. Surprised they didn't introduce chines for even better form stability

Displacement - 6.2 tons

About the same as the H355 with its non cored top sides but quite a bit heavier then the H350 at 5,763 with it's cored topsides. Hanse's are not the lightest cruiser/ performance cruisers around

Keel - 2,030

Love the torpedo keel even if they do snag laid lines from time to time They have made this a stiffer boat with better reserve stability by increasing the weight relative to the displacement compared to the H355. I would say that the form stability will be the same.

Draught - 1.87

Decent draught, similar to H350 and H355. Good balance between windward performance and being able to go places

Sail area - Mainsal - 32.5: Jib - 22.5 Total 55

Less sail area than H350 which has 35 mainsail and 29.6 headsail giving total of 64.9. A heavier boat with less sail area and less waterline length will make the H345 cruisier in nature and slower than the H350.
Set up is still with large mainsail and self tacking headsail which should be controlled IMHO by at least a pad eye in the cockpit set-up and preferably a main sheet traveller in the cockpit and not mid boom sheeting.. Not sure if this is offered as an option but if it is I don't see where it would fit given the size of the cockpit table.
One of the design options more and more nautical architects are going for is to split the cockpit into a working area and a chilling out area. Usually the area behind the helm is treated as the working area and it is here that the traveller is sometimes accommodated. If I look at the length of the boom though, I don't think they have gone for this. A pity.
They have lowered the mast height quite a bit to 15.75 versus 16.43 on the H350 but don't seem to have compensated for the reduction by introducing a fathead mainsail or roach. There seems to be an adjustable backstay which is a good thing in my view. Many of the new boats are doing out without this.

SA/D - 17.6. D/L - 202

This compares with 20.5 and 182 for the H350. The boat must be slower and cruisier in nature. The twin wheels cockpit table and bathing platform seem to confirm this

B/D - 32.7 L/B - 2.97

Versus 32% and 2.98 for the H350. Both boats will be stiff particularly considering most of the weight is in the bulb. Still would have liked a chine personally for even more safety.

Interior/exterior

Still dont like the nav station. Looks like an after thought on the H345 and the H350/355
They seem to have improved stowage in the saloon
Poor transom design on H350 way better on the new H345 - no longer all that wasted space behind the quarter berths.
Like the clutch layout in front of the winches being led aft. Don't like only having 2 winches though
Love the new hatch and port layout for loads of light down below.
Love having the chartplotter at the helm
Hopefully they have sorted out a bowsprit. Have always thought that this aspect has been overlooked on the Hanse's. The Dufour 335 has an amazing removable bowsprit.
Shrouds are taken outboard which has some advantages but a major disadvantage in that you can't fit a big overlapping genoa which you can do on the H350 (but not on the H355) )))

I am sure the boat will be a dream to sail and the proof is in the way she sails. It does seem though that Hanse are moving the Hanse range towards the cruisier side and Dehler is occupying the performance cruiser side.


----------



## myocean

Hi Guys!
I like to let you know that we finally purchased a our fast bluewater cruiser. See below...
This is a used Outremer 50. 8.5 tons, 0.7 m draft and lots of space.
The decision for this boat evolved as follows:

1. Big fun while sailing a Pogo 40: Speed is great! And the Pogos simplicity.
2. Plan for circumnavigation with 2 kids. Need for boat with low loss in value.
3. Low draft very appreciated. Same as speed and simplicity.
4. Pogos (e.g. 12.50) have not enough comfort (e.g. no doors, too basic pantry) 
5. Skipped purchase of a house due to other reasons.
6. Visited Catamaran Outremer to check out the 'narrow hulls' and 'limited omfort' people talk about. Seen that this is may be correct from the multihull standpoint but from the monohull standpoint the comfort is enormous.
7. Tried to get the build No.1 of the new 45 model. Unfortunatey it got postponed till 2014.
8. Decided to buy one of the few Outremer 50 due to the even more space. Handling is managable. Anchoring instead of marina anyway preferred.

Our voyage will start next April... Until then we will do some work on this boat.


----------



## paleodude

Hi Paulo.

This is a long thread, so I just try to ask you about this boat directly. I hope you don't mind? 
Do you know any option to get this Sirius 32 DS in the NA market? Or, is there any boat builder in NA you know about, who could produce similar quality and design? It would be nice not to fly to Europe and ship it over to the West Coast.
Thanks.

Laszlo



PCP said:


> *THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:*
> 
> Not only the quality, but the design and ergonomy are fantastic. You really won't believe you are in a 32ft boat. Just incredible and amazing; Have a look at it:
> 
> Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin | 32 DS for 2 forecabin
> Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

myocean said:


> Hi Guys!
> I like to let you know that we finally purchased a our fast bluewater cruiser. See below...
> This is a used Outremer 50. 8.5 tons, 0.7 m draft and lots of space.
> The decision for this boat evolved as follows:
> 
> 1. Big fun while sailing a Pogo 40: Speed is great! And the Pogos simplicity.
> 2. Plan for circumnavigation with 2 kids. Need for boat with low loss in value.
> 3. Low draft very appreciated. Same as speed and simplicity.
> 4. Pogos (e.g. 12.50) have not enough comfort (e.g. no doors, too basic pantry)
> 5. Skipped purchase of a house due to other reasons.
> 6. Visited Catamaran Outremer to check out the 'narrow hulls' and 'limited omfort' people talk about. Seen that this is may be correct from the multihull standpoint but from the monohull standpoint the comfort is enormous.
> 7. Tried to get the build No.1 of the new 45 model. Unfortunatey it got postponed till 2014.
> 8. Decided to buy one of the few Outremer 50 due to the even more space. Handling is managable. Anchoring instead of marina anyway preferred.
> 
> Our voyage will start next April... Until then we will do some work on this boat.


Congratulations, definitively an "Interesting sailboat".

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi Paulo,
> after all time spent evaluating boats I kind of wanted to spend my time sailing . By the way, congratulations to your boat choise, I hope you enjoy your cruise. I myself just sailed some 35 Nm in 4 hours and 14-16 knots of wind from 90 degrees TWA from Gothenbourg to the big in water boat show at the Hallberg-Rassy yard. Among other boats the new RM 1260 is here.


That is about the performance of my boat. With 14K at 90º the boat goes at 8.5K with 20º of heel, solid as a rock. Even my wife has got used to the speed. Very light at the wheel too.

But I am still learning: First time I got over 30K wind I blew both sails

I don't understand why the previous owner had a 3rd reef on the main sail if the sail hardly can hold with the wind that the 2nd reef can manage (35K).

I am in Preveza, near Levkas where I could find a marina that called me a sailmaker (Cleopatra Marina, good and inexpensive). Problem sorted out but now I need to start looking for good offshore sails. My wife said that these rip off like paper. She was used to the Elvstrom offshore (tafeta sails) that we had in our boat and I have to say that they could sustain much more abuse for many years without any problem.

The sailmaker says that I have medium racing kevlar sails, good for 15 to 18K of wind

I have already changed the front sail to a dracon one (that came with the boat), but that is a very basic sail.



JAndersB said:


> Anorher intersting notice from the big Tjörn Runt race that took place last weekend (around 430 boats took part) is that the new H-R 412 won it's class and was 8th overall (with furling main). Overall winner and 3 more of the top ten boats where First 40.


Thank to post about this. I will check it out better.
No doubt that the new Halberg Rassy, cored hull and hi-tech sails has little in common with HR from some years back. These ones can sail

That's kind of a joke but now that I have been sailing for almost 2 months in one of the areas with more sailboats around I can make some comments about sailboat performance in the real world:

Typical big production sailboats sail well (and we can see them really sailing) except upwind with more than 15K. Heavy boats don't sail with light wind and the vast majority don't sail at all. When there is enough wind for them to sail I guess that it is too much wind for most of the crews). The few ones that I found sailing with lots of wind 18/25K sailed well, specially upwind with waves and that is the point of sail that shows a smaller diferencial of speed, comparing to my boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Hanse 345*



daviid said:


> Hi Folks
> 
> It has been a while but I am still a regular visitor to this forum. My focus has become more boat specific so I spend a lot more time on the Hanse owners forum as a Hanse 350 owner. It is an amazing resource for anyone new to sailing and covers a range of topics that are boat specific or general in nature.
> 
> Which brings me to the purpose of this post. Hanse will be premiering a new boat that is to replace the Hanse 355 which replaced the Hanse 350 called the Hanse 345 at the Southampton Boat show. I don't think I can upload an image of the new boat from my iPad so have a look at this link. It is a stunning looking boat IMHO
> Hanse Yachts
> 
> My thoughts on the new Hanse 345
> 
> LOA/LWL- 10.40/9,50
> 
> Slightly shorter than the H350. Longer waterline length favours the 350.
> 
> Beam - 3.50
> 
> Slightly less beamy than H350 whose beam is 3.55. Surprised they didn't introduce chines for even better form stability
> 
> Displacement - 6.2 tons
> 
> About the same as the H355 with its non cored top sides but quite a bit heavier then the H350 at 5,763 with it's cored topsides. Hanse's are not the lightest cruiser/ performance cruisers around
> 
> Keel - 2,030
> 
> Love the torpedo keel even if they do snag laid lines from time to time They have made this a stiffer boat with better reserve stability by increasing the weight relative to the displacement compared to the H355. I would say that the form stability will be the same.
> 
> Draught - 1.87
> 
> Decent draught, similar to H350 and H355. Good balance between windward performance and being able to go places
> 
> Sail area - Mainsal - 32.5: Jib - 22.5 Total 55
> 
> Less sail area than H350 which has 35 mainsail and 29.6 headsail giving total of 64.9. A heavier boat with less sail area and less waterline length will make the H345 cruisier in nature and slower than the H350.
> Set up is still with large mainsail and self tacking headsail which should be controlled IMHO by at least a pad eye in the cockpit set-up and preferably a main sheet traveller in the cockpit and not mid boom sheeting.. Not sure if this is offered as an option but if it is I don't see where it would fit given the size of the cockpit table.
> One of the design options more and more nautical architects are going for is to split the cockpit into a working area and a chilling out area. Usually the area behind the helm is treated as the working area and it is here that the traveller is sometimes accommodated. If I look at the length of the boom though, I don't think they have gone for this. A pity.
> They have lowered the mast height quite a bit to 15.75 versus 16.43 on the H350 but don't seem to have compensated for the reduction by introducing a fathead mainsail or roach. There seems to be an adjustable backstay which is a good thing in my view. Many of the new boats are doing out without this.
> 
> SA/D - 17.6. D/L - 202
> 
> This compares with 20.5 and 182 for the H350. The boat must be slower and cruisier in nature. The twin wheels cockpit table and bathing platform seem to confirm this
> 
> B/D - 32.7 L/B - 2.97
> 
> Versus 32% and 2.98 for the H350. Both boats will be stiff particularly considering most of the weight is in the bulb. Still would have liked a chine personally for even more safety.
> 
> Interior/exterior
> 
> Still dont like the nav station. Looks like an after thought on the H345 and the H350/355
> They seem to have improved stowage in the saloon
> Poor transom design on H350 way better on the new H345 - no longer all that wasted space behind the quarter berths.
> Like the clutch layout in front of the winches being led aft. Don't like only having 2 winches though
> Love the new hatch and port layout for loads of light down below.
> Love having the chartplotter at the helm
> Hopefully they have sorted out a bowsprit. Have always thought that this aspect has been overlooked on the Hanse's. The Dufour 335 has an amazing removable bowsprit.
> Shrouds are taken outboard which has some advantages but a major disadvantage in that you can't fit a big overlapping genoa which you can do on the H350 (but not on the H355) )))
> 
> I am sure the boat will be a dream to sail and the proof is in the way she sails. It does seem though that Hanse are moving the Hanse range towards the cruisier side and Dehler is occupying the performance cruiser side.


Very nice post. Thanks for posting it

I guess you are right. Now that HR is making faster boats, Hanse is making slower boats

But I guess you are right, it seems a very nice cruising boat, more pointing to leisure cruising than to sport sailing. That is understandable, now that Hanse owns Dehler and we will see probably Hanse pointing more to family leisure cruising and Dehler to performance cruising.

It seems to be a stiff and very easy boat to sail , but not my cup of tea. I guess that I preferred the Hanse when they where faster.

Best Regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

JAndersB said:


> Hi everyone,
> It has been a while since I was active on the thread. I have gone through all the 100 pages or so created since my last visit and want to share with you some more experience from my Opium 39 bought last year and located on the Swedish west coast.


Hi! That seems to be a nice boat for sure, congratulations to you. I guess I will recognize you if I ever meet you out there, don´t think there are a lot of Opium 39s in Sweden!

Kind regards, 
Mr W


----------



## Mr W

PCP said:


> Hi W,
> 
> It seems to me that the Dragonfly 32 is too expensive for you and I find the 28 a bit cramped for cruising.
> 
> Have a look at this one:
> 
> Advancecruising C329 Trimaran Repliable Transportable Aluminium
> 
> Aluminum Carbon boat with enough space for cruising. Interesting concept. Not as fast as the 28 but maybe fast enough at a very interesting price.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo,

I hadn´t seen that one yet! Very interesting concept, but for me I think a bit to slow. It weighs more than the DF 32 but has less sail area than the 28...

I still have my motorboat, it´s not a good market for selling at the time. Hey, if your interested I´ll make you a good deal!! :laugher

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Outremer 50*



myocean said:


> Hi Guys!
> I like to let you know that we finally purchased a our fast bluewater cruiser. See below...
> This is a used Outremer 50. 8.5 tons, 0.7 m draft and lots of space.


How!!!!








myocean said:


> Our voyage will start next April... Until then we will do some work on this boat.


How!!!!

Please keep us posted

Best of luck to you your wife and the new boat. Fair winds.

Best regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sirius 32*

Hi Lazlo,

Sirius is not a common boat. It is a unique boat and it is made in Germany on a small familiar Shipyard. It is a family shipyard and a family tradition (first the father, now the son).

They sell boats to everywhere, including Japan and they have ways of making the warranty of their boats to be true even without a dealer. They are expensive boats but if money is not a problem and that's the boat you want the best advice I can get you is to go to the Dusseldorf boat show and have a talk with them. I mean, not dealers but the builders father and the son. Who knows if they are not interested in having the boat on display on one of the major American boat shows (west coast) and pay most of the expenses to ship the boat.

Now in what regards to be nice not to fly to Europe, particularly to the Dusseldorf boat show, I cannot agree with you:

Dusseldorf is a nice city with many other nice cities at a short distance by train, the beer is great and the boat show is just awesome.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## myocean

*Re: Outremer 50*



PCP said:


> Please keep us posted
> Best of luck to you your wife and the new boat. Fair winds.


Yes, I will.

Here the official website of this boat - still online even though it is out of production. The 55 and 55 model are nearly identical, just the stern is extended for the longer one. The "light" version is less wide and has a smaller saloon.

Outremer Catamaran - Our Catamarans - Outremer 55 standard


----------



## pogo1250easy

*Pogo 12.50*

If anyone interested, here is our blog where we share our impressions on our new Pogo 12.50 cruiser just built this summer:
Pogo 12.50 Easy
There are also pictures of several sister ships to our boat.


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Pogo 12.50*



pogo1250easy said:


> If anyone interested, here is our blog where we share our impressions on our new Pogo 12.50 cruiser just built this summer:
> Pogo 12.50 Easy
> There are also pictures of several sister ships to our boat.


Hehe, funny, I discovered your blog four hours ago 

I tried to comment but don´t have a google account nor any of the other required account types. So let me put the comments here:

Sweeeet boat! Please post some more videos and also write some comments on boatspeed/windspeed/windangle/sailsetup. Would be really interesting to here more about this boat and its performance.

I´m still waiting for Eric to comment on the boatspeed etc from his boat, allways good to have info from two sources!

Cheers!

//Mr W


----------



## APP Mode

*Re: Sirius 32*



PCP said:


> Hi Lazlo,
> 
> Sirius is not a common boat. It is a unique boat and it is made in Germany on a small familiar Shipyard. It is a family shipyard and a family tradition (first the father, now the son).
> 
> They sell boats to everywhere, including Japan and they have ways of making the warranty of their boats to be true even without a dealer. They are expensive boats but if money is not a problem and that's the boat you want the best advice I can get you is to go to the Dusseldorf boat show and have a talk with them. I mean, not dealers but the builders father and the son. Who knows if they are not interested in having the boat on display on one of the major American boat shows (west coast) and pay most of the expenses to ship the boat.
> 
> Now in what regards to be nice not to fly to Europe, particularly to the Dusseldorf boat show, I cannot agree with you:
> 
> Dusseldorf is a nice city with many other nice cities at a short distance by train, the beer is great and the boat show is just awesome.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


There are direct flights from US to Dusseldorf with some german airlines, like Lufthansa and AirBerlin. And some north american airlines do so.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Sirius 32*



APP Mode said:


> There are direct flights from US to Dusseldorf with some german airlines, like Lufthansa and AirBerlin. And some north american airlines do so.


I will be there next year...all right I have already a boat but still love sailboats and Dusseldorf is the place to have a look at new trends on sailboats. I know the place and it is a great place with great beer and food, so guys if you want to join me, first round of beer is on me

I am still discovering my boat.While I am waiting for my set of kevlar sails to be repaired (after having waisted them in a blow) I have only a small dracon jib (all right I have also a big geenaker but am afraid to host it for the first time with the only help of my wife, I am waiting for my kids for the first try). But with that small jib I still sail without the engine and today I have done 7,5k with 18/20K wind at 40 degrees (all apparent wind).

I find out that the boat sails very well with just a small front sail (now have to convince my wife that the main sail is also needed). With 10k wind and just that little sail the boat can make over 5K). I never thought I could have fun with the boat handicapped to just that small sail, but I have not only had fun as I have learned a lot.

By the way while I am waiting for the repaired sails, I have been sailing in a fantastic placed, an interior sea that you enter in Preveza, the Amvrakikos golf: Incredible place, no tourism, almost no sailboats and the wind works like a clock: From 2 to 7 PM 18 to 20 K , always W/NW, after that no real wind till 2 PM next day. Just perfect for me with some small nice places with very nice prices and with very few tourists. I am sending this from one of them, Vonitsa : a great meal with wine, coffee and ouzo included by 10 euros.

This contrasts greatly with Croatia: not only you don't pay the anchorages as, several times, mine was the only boat there and when there were more boats (never more than three) they were separeted by 300m, at least. Nice

Regards

Paulo


----------



## FrodeS

*Re: Sirius 32*



PCP said:


> ...
> 
> I know the place and it is a great place with great beer and food, so guys if you want to join me, first round of beer is on me
> 
> ...


Careful now Paulo, there are a lot of people reading this thread! 

Thank you for starting and maintaining this thread. It is most enjoyable and I am learning something new every time I stop by. Many of us already have a perfectly good boat, but we are still allowed some "window shopping." I must admit that there are many tempting choices out there, so one never knows what might happen in the future.

Enjoy your sailing!


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Sirius 32*



FrodeS said:


> Careful now Paulo, there are a lot of people reading this thread!


I will open a list to organize our visit to Paulo. The list will be close when raise 1250 people!


----------



## HMoll

Hey Pogo, your lines are running over the solar panels. That's why you may not be getting full rated amps from them. Nice boat, and thanks for sharing! The blog is difficult to post in, though. Cheers, Hans.


----------



## PCP

*Dusseldorf*



DiasDePlaya said:


> I will open a list to organize our visit to Paulo. The list will be close when raise 1250 people!


well, go ahead with that list. I will be more than happy to pay the first round (the second is on you).

I will be happy to meet you guys and share my knowledge of the city, I mean the best beer and the best restaurants, with everybody.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pogo 12.50*



pogo1250easy said:


> If anyone interested, here is our blog where we share our impressions on our new Pogo 12.50 cruiser just built this summer:
> Pogo 12.50 Easy
> There are also pictures of several sister ships to our boat.


Hi, welcome to the thread

Thanks for posting.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Sirius 32*



FrodeS said:


> Thank you for starting and maintaining this thread. It is most enjoyable and I am learning something new every time I stop by. Many of us already have a perfectly good boat, but we are still allowed some "window shopping." I must admit that there are many tempting choices out there, so one never knows what might happen in the future.
> 
> Enjoy your sailing!


Thanks,

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

*Re: Dusseldorf*



PCP said:


> I will be happy to meet you guys and share my knowledge of the city, I mean the best beer and the best restaurants, with everybody.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I'll see you there, Paulo.

Not sure if Malo decksalon models have been mentioned here. 
MALÖ SEMI CUSTOM

The new Vision line of Bavaria has been posted about before. I was looking at the tech specs and was surprised to find only 25% ballast on both models. Seems a little weak for a purposed cruiser. Any thoughts?


----------



## PCP

*Malo DS*

You got me there: Malo DS

Well, what can I say, they have to build what the clients want.

MALÖ SEMI CUSTOM

I cannot say I like the idea.

Regarding the ballast, it is about average on a mass production boat with a bulbed keel and about 2.00m draft. Bigger boats tend to less a smaller B/D ratio than smaller boats.

To have more ballast ratio you have to look for a more sportive boat or for a dedicated bluewater cruiser even if those, due to increase in draft and ballasted bulbs are also coming down in B/D ratio, but not in RM.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria cruiser 33*

New boat from Bavaria, substituting one of the most popular boats of their line, the 32/33.

The 32/33 was a great boat with lots of interior space and relatively fast. This one as about the same weight and ballast ratio of the previous model but the underbody keel and ruder are more modern and efficient. It looks good to me: a lot of boat for the money.


----------



## tdw

*Re: Malo DS*



PCP said:


> You got me there: Malo DS
> 
> Well, what can I say, they have to build what the clients want.
> 
> MALÖ SEMI CUSTOM
> 
> I cannot say I like the idea.
> 
> Regarding the ballast, it is about average on a mass production boat with a bulbed keel and about 2.00m draft. Bigger boats tend to less a smaller B/D ratio than smaller boats.
> 
> To have more ballast ratio you have to look for a more sportive boat or for a dedicated bluewater cruiser even if those, due to increase in draft and ballasted bulbs are also coming down in B/D ratio, but not in RM.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I'm with Paulo there. As much as I like Malo the DS models do absolutely nothing for me. All in all I simply cannot understand having all that glass but you still cannot see out when sitting down in the saloon.


----------



## PCP

*Vismara 34*

Now you don't need to be really rich to own a Vismara: they have made a small boat, a 34ft. I bet it will not be cheap but what a boat

Kind of a speedy weekend cruiser, daysailer. Gorgeous boat.


----------



## tdw

Wow ... anchoring could be something of a problem but for a daysailor ... oh yes.


----------



## crwber

Thank you everyone for all you have contributed to this thread. Next year, we are back in the hunt for a new boat and so many different ideas have come up in all of these posts. Trying to find the ultimate short-handed cruiser racer is a challenge, but many contenders appear here. Thanks!


----------



## daviid

*Re: Bavaria cruiser 33*



PCP said:


> New boat from Bavaria, substituting one of the most popular boats of their line, the 32/33.
> 
> The 32/33 was a great boat with lots of interior space and relatively fast. This one as about the same weight and ballast ratio of the previous model but the underbody keel and ruder are more modern and efficient. It looks good to me: a lot of boat for the money.


Hi Paulo

Busy cruising the Croatian islands and took your tip to visit the Elephite islands. Anchored out in Sipanski Luka on the island of Sipan opposite Sudurad. Great place to visit.

The new BAvaria design is the first Bavaria that I could actually like aesthetically. The boat looks as if it has been designed by Beneteau, Jeanneau or Hanse 

A huge improvement looks wise to the current cruiser range. Personally I don't know what Farr was thinking with all this ports and hatches on the current range.

All the best


----------



## Mr W

*Infiniti 36GT*

DSS (dynamic stability system) has been mentioned here before. Here is the latest boat to incorporate this system, the Infinity 36GT. Looks sweet! The boats that use DSS usually have narrow or at least not very wide hulls. Paolo, what do you think about putting a system like this on a boat like the Pogo, but with less ballast? It would still have good initial stability thanks to the wide hull, and when the wind speed and boat speed increase, the DSS foil would kick in with its extra RM. The foil would be really far out from the center line and therefore have really good effect. I´m just babbling here, really don´t know what I´m talking about  










































//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: Infiniti 36GT*



Mr W said:


> DSS (dynamic stability system) has been mentioned here before. Here is the latest boat to incorporate this system, the Infinity 36GT. Looks sweet! The boats that use DSS usually have narrow or at least not very wide hulls. Paolo, what do you think about putting a system like this on a boat like the Pogo, but with less ballast? It would still have good initial stability thanks to the wide hull, and when the wind speed and boat speed increase, the DSS foil would kick in with its extra RM. The foil would be really far out from the center line and therefore have really good effect. I´m just babbling here, really don´t know what I´m talking about
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> //Mr W


Yes I agree!!! It looks very promising and I cannot see why it should not work. With that you get righting moment without using ballast and contrary to ballast generated righting moment, that remains constant with heeling, this one increases with speed and only needs a very small amount of heel to be generated. Speed is the increasing factor, not heeling.

I hope the system proves itself on the race course and if it really works it would be a really major breakthrough in sail design.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

crwber said:


> Thank you everyone for all you have contributed to this thread. Next year, we are back in the hunt for a new boat and so many different ideas have come up in all of these posts. Trying to find the ultimate short-handed cruiser racer is a challenge, but many contenders appear here. Thanks!


Hi, welcome to the thread.

There is not a ultimate short-handed cruiser racer, that is for sure. It all depends of what you want to do with the boat but surely there are some that are better than others at least in some situations.

I have been busy on the last weeks, first sailing the boat from Greece to Rome (Fumicino) and then preparing it for the winter time, but I am back home at winter quarters and I will be more active on this thread.

Soon I will post some comments that you may find interesting. I guess that in 3 months sailing some thousands of miles with my new boat in an area that have one of the biggest density of sail boats have permitted to compare the performance of my boat ( that I think is typical of that kind of boat) with many other types and I got some surprises, not all good but certainly interesting.

Best regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

copacabana said:


> Parabens pelo barcão novo Paulo!
> 
> Very nice boat!


Olá! Obrigado Só agora é que vi o teu post.

Barcão it is not the right word I guess, barcão is the right word for the Brazilian boat I found out in Tropea: an Amel with more than 50ft. That is a barcão

Nice couple with a kid; we sail out from Tropea the same day, bound to Cetraro stay there side by side and have a nice chat. We were both going North but the Amel was faster motoring and they stayed in Marinas while we prefer to stay on anchor so we went on separate routes from there. That's the first time I spoke Portuguese in almost 4 months

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elephite Islands*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> Busy cruising the Croatian islands and took your tip to visit the Elephite islands. Anchored out in Sipanski Luka on the island of Sipan opposite Sudurad. Great place to visit.
> 
> ...


Hey David, I am glad you have liked it. Well I know that is out of topic, but what the hell, this thread is also about beautiful things, so some pictures for the guys to understand what we are talking about























































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Code 0 by Black Pepper*

Talking about beauty, I had already posted about this daysailer, one of the boats that had impress me more on the Paris boat show, this one:










Now take a look at this movie and see how beautiful and fun can be a sailboat

*MOVIE:*

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Code-0%3A-Kohlefaserrakete-als-Daysailer/4de34bc48f2f369aa080b8e53b4673e9


----------



## PCP

*Mod70*

Hey guys, are you following this?






I am catching up and this one seems terrific.

European Tour 2012 - European Tour 2012


----------



## PCP

*Comet 31*

And from Italy some news: The GrandSoleil 39 is a big sales success: On just some months they have sold almost 40 boats. If we join that success with the success of the Salona 38 it seems that this type of boat is responding to what a significant amount of sailors want: A medium sized strong light fast all around performer with a nice cruising interior, a boat that will not make bad figure on a club race and that can even be ordered in a racing specification for top level racing even if fast cruising was the main goal in what regards design criteria.

Another new and smaller one that can meet this criteria is the Comet 31, a boat full of interesting solutions, and certainly a fast one. Take a look at a movie from a recent test:






Not to much wind and the max speed obtained was 7.7K. Not bad for a 31ft


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Elephite Islands*

Hey Paulo, keep them coming! One question: Why the aft bimini position? Only I can think of is for pointing more to the wind while at anchor?? Beautiful pictures of your Comet!


----------



## PCP

*Comet 41s*



HMoll said:


> Hey Paulo, keep them coming! One question: Why the aft bimini position? Only I can think of is for pointing more to the wind while at anchor?? Beautiful pictures of your Comet!


Hi!, Thanks.

Regarding the bimini position what you say is an added bonus but the main reason is that it is the position that allows me to sail the boat properly tight upwind. That is the position that allows the boom to come down to the right position without touching it. Furthermore I found out that the position gives me a good eye protection against the sun. I am going to add on the back a vertical removable panel and that should give considerable more protection than if it was used on the "horizontal" position.

Regarding the boat I want to make some corrections and add some information:

It was said to me by the Mediaship seller that the boat had a steel structure to hold the keel and shrouds. That is not true (the guy does not work with Mediaship anymore). That is made by a reinforced grid that is laminated in the hull. On the other hand I had several reports of different sailors that know the boat that said that it was very strong (and I didn't ask, they were spontaneous comments). One of them was a sailmaker, owner of a sail making factory that said: *"This boat is massively strong. I know, I have crashed several while racing"*.

Another thing I want to correct is what I have said regarding sailing with light wind. Yes the boat is fast but not as fast as a top Salona or probably a Pogo or an Opium. The boat is heavier and needs more sail. With a 130% genoa with 6K wind the Comet is not much faster than a modern light mass production cruiser with a 150% genoa.

Downwind I had several experiences with other boats, the last one was with an older Jeanneau Sun magic 44. Going downwind with 8/10 apparent wind the Jeanneau was slightly faster, when the wind picked up to 12/15K the Comet was much faster . In fact I was overtaken and then when the wind picked up I passed again and went away fast going between 8 and 8.5K. The Sun Magic had a big 150% genoa and I had a Jib as front sail.

The point here is that while a lighter boat could have with lighter winds a top performance with small front sails definitively the Comet needs more sail. That puts some problems for a solo sailor in what regards the choice of sails: The Jib is a fantastic sail for strong wind and the Comet works with it in a way I never saw in other boat. When I had all other sails for repair I had a week of sailing with only that small sail and found out that with 24/27K of apparent wind I could go at 30º (up wind) doing 7.5K with a very light rudder and a well balanced boat.

The bad news is that, as I have pointed out, that sail is insufficient for light winds and of course changing sails on the sea alone is not practical considering that when I change to the jib there are already at least 14K wind and some sea.

In Fumicino (Rome) I had the opportunity to exchange ideas with a good sailmaker (Speed sails speedsails) and although he has more experience with racing, together we came up with some interesting solutions: When I can I will change the 130% front sail for a 140% and I am going to have the Jib permanently mounted on the deck in a bag, with a removable textile stay (already on the boat) with textile links. It can be left in place and in that case I have to see how hard it is to tack with it there or more probably, with everything in place I will put the stay, the sail and the bag stored in some place further back in the boat, probably along the life lines.

Well, this is the negative part.

The positive is that the boat has an incredible rudder, very sensitive and that can take a lot of abuse giving an excellent control over the boat even when it is sailed with too much sail. The boat has also a big stability and a soft motion in transitions, much more than in a lighter boat where the behaviour is more dinghy like. The boat has also a very good pointing ability. Till now I have yet to find (on the sea) any other boat that can match it. The difference to a modern mass production cruiser is really big and to a cat is huge, like 15 or 20%, if we sail upwind with waves. The boat is also very comfortable and doesn't slam. Comparing with the Bavaria 36 the difference is huge and I believe it will be also big if compared with modern performance beamy boats, like the Pogo.

Bottom point, this is a medium weight performance boat and that means more sails than a light performance boat for the same speed. That will not be a problem with a crew but solo sailing is certainly a disadvantage.

The advantage is that the boat is not so dinghy like in its reactions, being slower on the transitions and a bit more comfortable and stable in what regards gusts of wind. It is also a very fast boat upwind with medium winds or strong winds and a formed sea, where the small wave drag will give it an advantage over boats like the Pogo or the Opium, that will be faster downwind and in other conditions.

I hope not to be too partial about this and have contributed to give an idea of the characteristics of this type of boats (medium weight performance cruisers). What is said to this boat will be valid to a First 40 CR, a Dehler 41 CR or a Dufour 40e.

Similar type of boats but lighter, like the Salona 41 or the Xp 38 will have similar performances with medium winds but will need less sail with light winds (will sail faster) and will start to plan with less wind downwind and that will make them faster there too. Anyway we are talking of winds near 20k or over and most cruisers will stay on anchor when the weather service give storm warnings (burrasca), I mean with force 7 and over.










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona*

Talking about Salona, the ones that go to the Genova boat show, that is starting, will be able to see the first 41 IBC. IBC is the top performance Salona can offer on their boats. For a really fast boat that can do well in high profile races is still an inexpensive boat.

On the last ORC world championship Lenco, a 37 several years old won 2th place, this one:

Gallery - Salona Yachts






Not only he made silver but on the top ten, out of 79 boats there was 3 Salona 37 (the 38 has the same hull).

By the way, some new movies with the 38. I did not bought one but I still love the boat:











and finally some good pictures of the 35:


----------



## blt2ski

paulo,

have not looked in here for a bit, but rumour has it, Jeanneau will have an SF3600 to go with the now about 4 yr old SF3200. Or at least a tweet by Daniel Andrieu has implied, and an online article here, not that I can translate the francais!
Mon Voile Mag , Archive » Bientôt un grand Sun Fast 3200 ?

marty


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sunfast*



blt2ski said:


> paulo,
> 
> have not looked in here for a bit, but rumour has it, Jeanneau will have an SF3600 to go with the now about 4 yr old SF3200. Or at least a tweet by Daniel Andrieu has implied, and an online article here, not that I can translate the francais!
> Mon Voile Mag , Archive » Bientôt un grand Sun Fast 3200 ?
> 
> marty


Hi Marty,

Those are really hot news. From the French article is not just a rumor since Jeanneau has confirmed the rumor. Has you said it will be designed by the same team that designed the 3200 and they talk about a boat with the superior rating allowed in the transquadra (1050), so it should have between 38 and 40fts. They want to win it in real time.

After the big success of the 3200 they should have made this one, that will be a boat more adapted to cruising but Benetau did not allowed since it would collide with the First 40 cr in the clients it is aimed for. Now , probably because the First 40 cr sells badly they have green light. There are a lot of people that was waiting for this boat.

Please if you have more news post them here.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

You have what I have seen from my sorta kinda inside sources. A bigger boat would be nicer all around, probably sell a bit more too.

marty


----------



## PCP

*New Bavaria Cruiser 55*

Surprise from Bavaria: they are making a new 55 to substitute the recent one designed by Farr and that was in my opinion an ugly boat, this one:










Surprise because the Farr 55 ia a very recent model and because the new one is very different in design and it seems to be a very nice boat. It does not look like a Farr design but a Finot/Conq or Marc Lombard design. Farr has changed his boat design to a French style or is not a Farr design?

Anyway Bavaria seems to have improved its design standards, first with the Vision series and now with this one. The interior seems very comfortable for serious cruising. Take a look:


----------



## PCP

*Ac72*

And the big toys are on the water

First the NZ one:











then the North American one:






and a kind of resume of past AC:


----------



## MrPelicano

I had not read that the Beneteau First 40CR was not selling well. Any idea if this is actually the case and, if so, why the boat is struggling in the market? Its predecessor - the First 40.7 - was extremely successful, particularly on the race course under IRC and offshore (Sydney-Hobart, etc.).


----------



## PCP

*First 40*



MrPelicano said:


> I had not read that the Beneteau First 40CR was not selling well. Any idea if this is actually the case and, if so, why the boat is struggling in the market? Its predecessor - the First 40.7 - was extremely successful, particularly on the race course under IRC and offshore (Sydney-Hobart, etc.).


Hi! One of the ways you have to see if a mass production boat is doing well is looking for the charter market. Yes there also a charter market for performance cruisers even if smaller than the one regarding the one for the typical cruiser: In Croatia were the charter market is huge the Benetau importer has a big fleet of 35 a fleet of 45 and not one 40.

Don't make me wrong I like the dynamics of the boat its looks and even its interior, fact is that I sounded two years ago the Croatian importer to know about the price I could get one for me and he said to me, he would make me a special price because it was the 1st First 40 he was selling!!!! These several years after the boat were on the market.

The boat that sells badly is the Cruising one, the one that they advertise on the site and is called CR. It is a low tech boat, not even a cored boat (heavy), the one that is inexpensive and that was made to be sold in large numbers.

The top racing boat, the lighter and cored boat (much more expensive) for top racing sells well and is a very good racing boat, especially with bad weather and lots of upwind sailing, but the market for those boats is very limited. The one that they should be selling in large quantities is the one for performance cruising (CR) and occasional club racing and that is the one that is not selling.

Go to the net and search for used boats and what you get would be few boats and mostly expensive top racing boats, not performance cruising boats.
The direct competitors like the Dufour 40e or even Salona are selling much more and that is odd been Benetau a market leader.

I can only speculate why the boat does not sell well in what should be the most popular version (CR), basically for performance cruising and club racing but I strongly suspect that has to do with the anchor locker that is shallow and will not take a chain and with the very small removable lateral cockpit lockers. A cruiser, performance or not, needs a good anchor locker with at least capacity for 50m of chain and decent storage on the cockpit, not small removable lockers. That is for racers.

Yes I agree, the First 40.7 was and is hugely popular and was sold in large numbers, but that one was a good cruising boat with a decent chain locker and decent storage on the cockpit.

Best regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Italia 13.98*

New boat and I have to say I love this one: Italian style, that means less beamier than the French ones, more classic but not on the performances. The boat is very light, very stiff and very fast.

I like the look, a classic look mixtured with modern design. I like the interior and the performances. Probably I don't like the price.

The boat was tested by Toby Hodges from Yachtingworld magazine. He favors beamier styled boats, with the beam brought back and even so the guy was really impressed...with everything, from performances to the finish.

The videos:











and look at the performance with very light wind. Look at the banner, sometimes they are probably sailing with 5K of real wind. Look how the boat glides and "makes" wind. Really impressive.


----------



## blt2ski

paulo,

I have now heard of at least one SF3600 that is bought based on the plans alone. That person has been buying sf3200 every other year or so since out. I believe he is a dealer owner in the UK. He and another fellow seem to sail a lot of the SH/DH races in and out f the uk. This could be a hot seller for Jeanneau if as you say, a bit bigger, faster, easy to sail by one or two people. Along with a decent interior, coastal cruisers may like it. 

The SF3200 does seem to have some issues being sticky in lighter airs, but get the wind up, she fly's, So hopefully since the designer owns a 3200, he has figured this out, and can design the new one to work in a broader wind range!

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Mini Racing*

Thanks Marty

Take a look at these Images: Mini racing at its best. Nicolas Boidevezi on the last Les Sable - Açores - Les Sables. He won the leg Açores - Les Sables and we can see how. Jesus that is sailing fast


----------



## PCP

*Fun*

Out of topic but this is *FUN* and I want to share. It has not even sails but what the hell, it is a watercraft and one that makes you like a flying fish

take a look:


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 36 performance*

I had posted already about the new Dufour 36 performance, I saw the boat on the Dusseldorf boat show and was impressed with the interior that is amazingly detailed for a performance boat and will make this boat a very nice cruising boat.

Posterior testing showed that this boat was not only relatively fast but very easy and agreeable to sail. A very interesting boat for someone that wants a faster boat than an average 36ft but want a true cruising boat with all details and amenities.

Take a look:











http://tv.yacht.de/video/Dufour-36%3A-Kraftpaket-im-Test/287b02a87912cc7425884c07d0bee023

Well I have to say that even if that somebody seems to love this boat I would like very much to see a comparative boat test with several boats in the water. I have to say that I have more than some doubts about the compared sail performance of the Dufour. Yes the hull is very nicely designed but...the boat is heavy and has a comparatively small B/D ratio and that does not allow it to carry much more sail than the competition so I have many doubts that the boat would be comparatively fast in light wind or in a breeze with some heavy sea, where the bigger ballast B/D ratio would be more important.

Yes I believe the performances from 10 to 14K would be very interesting but out of that...I think the boat would be comparatively slow. But after all is not between 10 and 13K of wind that most cruisers like to sail?

Some numbers:

Dufour 36p sail area 72,1m2, weight 6400kg

First 35 sail area 72,5m2, weight 5500kg

Salona 35 sail area 69,5m2, weight 5300kg

Elan 350 sail area 68,6m2, weight 5350kg

Dehler 35 sail area 72,0m2, weight 5520kg

J 109 sail area 59,8m2, weight 4944kg

Comet 35s sail area 80m2, weight 5500kg

Archambault 35 sail area 67,5m2, weight 4450kg

well, I could go on, but I guess you get my drift I don't believe in miracles.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

paulo,

That looks like the issue with the 34/34e previous version. Correct "fast" design, but to much wt for the SA to move at a reasonably rate of speed. There is a 34 shoal keel of all things near me, I've beaten it boat for boat a number of times. Rating has been lowered to match its performance. Then again, when the owner usually has a crew of newbies out of a sailing school, with them learning........I still should not be able to beat it!

SF3600 plans/specs etc should be out at the Paris boat show per HERE! out of the horses mouth shall we say!

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 34 and 36 performance*



blt2ski said:


> paulo,
> 
> That looks like the issue with the 34/34e previous version. Correct "fast" design, but to much wt for the SA to move at a reasonably rate of speed. There is a 34 shoal keel of all things near me, I've beaten it boat for boat a number of times. Rating has been lowered to match its performance. Then again, when the owner usually has a crew of newbies out of a sailing school, with them learning........I still should not be able to beat it!
> 
> ...
> 
> Marty


Are you talking about one of the late versions, the one they call the first from the "performance" line?

That one was not too bad with 5400Kg for 65m2 of sail (not very different from what I had in my old Bavaria 36 that was 70cm bigger). Anyway the new 36 has only more 70cms and weights 1000kgs more.

That is a lot.

It is expected that new performance boats to be lighter than the previous versions, not heavier. To put things in perspective the Salona 38 that is 50cms longer weights only more 100kg than the Dufour 36 and was a much bigger proportion of the overall weight in ballast. If we consider only the boats without the ballast, the Salona 38 is considerably lighter.

The Dufour has 1900kg of ballast, the Salona 2270kg. The Salona 38 has 88.4m2 of sail and the Dufour 36 72,1m2. Both boats have about the same weight but the Salona has not only much more sail as also more RM. I really don't understand why everybody is saynig so well about the new Dufour 36 in what regards its sailing performance. I guess that if they tested the boat out of the wind rage were the boat should perform well (10 to 13K), especially if it was a comparative test, it would help to clear the water.

34E - Performance - DUFOUR Yachts

36 - Performance - DUFOUR Yachts

Technical data - Salona Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

The 34 I am talking about, is a 34e but before the e was added to the 34 part of the equation. I've seen it sail faster than me, but at times it is slower, it should NOT BE! I've seen some threads on sailing anarchy with some saying the 34/34e is not as fast as it should be either. Kind of a bummer frankly. I like the look etc.....My boat from what I can tell has an irc of about .87 or there abouts. If both are equally sailed, I should not be beating it!

Marty


----------



## PCP

Yes, the Dufour 34 has about .94.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*new boat: Sense 46*

You can like it or not but the Sense concept changed the way the interior/exterior of a sailing boat was designed. The Sense series offers a living space that no other boat of the same size matches. True, it has fewer cabins, but for living at the marina or anchorage the boat offers a true loft and a great exterior space, all well designed in a true contemporary styling.

The 46 offers a lot, in what regards living quality. To entertain and receive friends it is just great. It sails well for what it offers and this one has even a decent B/D ratio (29%) for this type of boat and type of keel . That and the huge beam should give it a big stability and the ability to sail with little heel.

Some photos and some videos:


----------



## PCP

*Crazy multihull sailing*

Allright, they are Australians...but even for Australians the sailing is...over the limit. Even cruising boats sail at the edge


----------



## PCP

*Boat of the Year, Voile magazine*

I have already talked here about a different boat of the year, the one from the Voile magazine that is chosen by readers, journalists and guests, a lot of people, not by mail, but voted after having sailed the nominated boats on the sea at the same time.

This year they got 30K wind gusting 40K and the winner was a surprise (well, not for me), the JPK 38 that had beaten all the other boats, at least in the opinion of the ones that had sailed them.

The second place, that one was a surprise for me, the Benetau Sense 46. I guess that on the post about the boat I was right in guessing a big stability for that boat. It seems it passed with flying colors the 40K wind.

Next it comes the J70 and that is no surprise because these guys (I mean the readers of that magazine) had already shown that they like J boats. Last year the winner was the J111.

After the podium, it comes the new RM 12.60 and then the Pogo 50.


----------



## daviid

*Re: Dufour 36 performance*



PCP said:


> Some numbers:
> 
> Dufour 36p sail area 72,1m2, weight 6400kg
> 
> First 35 sail area 72,5m2, weight 5500kg
> 
> Salona 35 sail area 69,5m2, weight 5300kg
> 
> Elan 350 sail area 68,6m2, weight 5350kg
> 
> Dehler 35 sail area 72,0m2, weight 5520kg
> 
> J 109 sail area 59,8m2, weight 4944kg
> 
> Comet 35s sail area 80m2, weight 5500kg
> 
> Archambault 35 sail area 67,5m2, weight 4450kg
> 
> well, I could go on, but I guess you get my drift I don't believe in miracles.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

You forgot a Hanse 350 from your list:laugher:laugher

Hanse 350 - sail area 74.6 with 140% genoa; weight 5,763 kg; SA/D - 23.6!!

All the best

David


----------



## daviid

*Re: Dufour 36 performance*



PCP said:


> I had posted already about the new Dufour 36 performance, I saw the boat on the Dusseldorf boat show and was impressed with the interior that is amazingly detailed for a performance boat and will make this boat a very nice cruising boat.
> 
> Posterior testing showed that this boat was not only relatively fast but very easy and agreeable to sail. A very interesting boat for someone that wants a faster boat than an average 36ft but want a true cruising boat with all details and amenities.
> 
> Take a look:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dufour 36: Kraftpaket im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin
> 
> Well I have to say that even if that somebody seems to love this boat I would like very much to see a comparative boat test with several boats in the water. I have to say that I have more than some doubts about the compared sail performance of the Dufour. Yes the hull is very nicely designed but...the boat is heavy and has a comparatively small B/D ratio and that does not allow it to carry much more sail than the competition so I have many doubts that the boat would be comparatively fast in light wind or in a breeze with some heavy sea, where the bigger ballast B/D ratio would be more important.
> 
> Yes I believe the performances from 10 to 14K would be very interesting but out of that...I think the boat would be comparatively slow. But after all is not between 10 and 13K of wind that most cruisers like to sail?
> 
> Some numbers:
> 
> Dufour 36p sail area 72,1m2, weight 6400kg
> 
> First 35 sail area 72,5m2, weight 5500kg
> 
> Salona 35 sail area 69,5m2, weight 5300kg
> 
> Elan 350 sail area 68,6m2, weight 5350kg
> 
> Dehler 35 sail area 72,0m2, weight 5520kg
> 
> J 109 sail area 59,8m2, weight 4944kg
> 
> Comet 35s sail area 80m2, weight 5500kg
> 
> Archambault 35 sail area 67,5m2, weight 4450kg
> 
> well, I could go on, but I guess you get my drift I don't believe in miracles.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

Thanks for sharing. An awesome looking boat with some great features inside as well. Perfect for performance cruising but there will be other boats that will be faster.

Some stats

D/L - 168 compares wit 153 for First 35 so nothing in it
SA/D - 19.2 compares with 23.7 for the First 35. The weight issue you have highlighted is definitely counting against it. Both boats have shrouds outboard so not much scope to increase the size of the headsail
B/D - 29.7 compares with 30.4 for the First 35 so not much in it. Both have chines and a torpedo so weight will be low down. Both boats should be stiff in a blow. There are obviously other competitors with higher B/D's
Displacement - excluding keel - 4,500kg versus 3,830. Probably due to cored topsides on the First 35 versus non core on the Dufour but definitely a big difference

Just my opinion

David


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dufour 36 performance*



;931125 said:


> Hi PauloHanse 350 - sail area 74.6 with 140% genoa; weight 5,763 kg; SA/D - 23.6!!
> daviid
> All the best
> 
> You forgot a Hanse 350 from your list:laugher:laugher
> 
> David


Hi David,
Because the Hanse is not advertised as a performance cruiser, or cruiser racer as some like to call them. However you are right it seems that even a good mainstream cruiser like the Hanse can be faster than the Dufour, at least in some conditions. Well, the Dufour* looks like* a fast performance boat and the Hanse does not



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> Thanks for sharing. An awesome looking boat with some great features inside as well. Perfect for performance cruising but there will be other boats that will be faster.
> 
> Some stats
> 
> D/L - 168 compares wit 153 for First 35 so nothing in it
> SA/D - 19.2 compares with 23.7 for the First 35. The weight issue you have highlighted is definitely counting against it. Both boats have shrouds outboard so not much scope to increase the size of the headsail
> *B/D - 29.7 compares with 30.4 for the First 35 so not much in it. *Both have chines and a torpedo so weight will be low down. Both boats should be stiff in a blow. There are obviously other competitors with higher B/D's
> Displacement - excluding keel - 4,500kg versus 3,830. Probably due to cored topsides on the First 35 versus non core on the Dufour but definitely a big difference
> 
> Just my opinion
> 
> David


You are right about the B/D ratio. I never noticed that the First 35 had also a low B/D ratio for a performance boat. Funny, the First 40 that is also a Farr design and looks like a bigger 35 has 38%, the same kind of keel and a bigger draft (2.45 to 2.2m). That is strange because regarding the same type of boats, smaller boats have normally a bigger B/D ratio.

The other boats I have listed have a bigger B/D ratio. In fact 29/30% is the norm with a modern keel for a mainstream cruiser. Performance cruisers will have normally at least 33%.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

Hi Paulo

Looks like a performance cruiser to me.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder 

All the best

David


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> Looks like a performance cruiser to me.
> 
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
> 
> All the best
> 
> David


I didn't say that the Hanse is not a beautiful boat. I have said that the Dufour 36 looked like a cruiser-racer and the Hanse didn't. I was referring to things like the traveler on the back of the boat, near the wheel, removable cockpit lockers and a cockpit and winch set up adapted to racing.

Nice boat and nice place too

Regards

Paulo


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Dufour 36 performance*



PCP said:


> I had posted already about the new Dufour 36 performance, I saw the boat on the Dusseldorf boat show and was impressed with the interior that is amazingly detailed for a performance boat and will make this boat a very nice cruising boat.
> 
> Posterior testing showed that this boat was not only relatively fast but very easy and agreeable to sail. A very interesting boat for someone that wants a faster boat than an average 36ft but want a true cruising boat with all details and amenities.
> 
> Take a look:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dufour 36: Kraftpaket im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin
> 
> Well I have to say that even if that somebody seems to love this boat I would like very much to see a comparative boat test with several boats in the water. I have to say that I have more than some doubts about the compared sail performance of the Dufour. Yes the hull is very nicely designed but...the boat is heavy and has a comparatively small B/D ratio and that does not allow it to carry much more sail than the competition so I have many doubts that the boat would be comparatively fast in light wind or in a breeze with some heavy sea, where the bigger ballast B/D ratio would be more important.
> 
> Yes I believe the performances from 10 to 14K would be very interesting but out of that...I think the boat would be comparatively slow. But after all is not between 10 and 13K of wind that most cruisers like to sail?
> 
> Some numbers:
> 
> Dufour 36p sail area 72,1m2, weight 6400kg
> 
> First 35 sail area 72,5m2, weight 5500kg
> 
> Salona 35 sail area 69,5m2, weight 5300kg
> 
> Elan 350 sail area 68,6m2, weight 5350kg
> 
> Dehler 35 sail area 72,0m2, weight 5520kg
> 
> J 109 sail area 59,8m2, weight 4944kg
> 
> Comet 35s sail area 80m2, weight 5500kg
> 
> Archambault 35 sail area 67,5m2, weight 4450kg
> 
> well, I could go on, but I guess you get my drift I don't believe in miracles.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


My perspective is a bit diferrent. I used to sail a 4,600kg 35' one-design racer cruiser with wife and two kids. A bit of a workload for singlehand cruising, especially upwind,where we usulaay get a 4'-5' chop. When I added 320kg of water ballast and another 430kg of batteries on top of the keel, I got a lot better behavior upwind, as it slices waves better. Also, on puffs, a more gentle transition to heel where it allows me time to trim as necessary. Let's say the boat is more civilized, and maybe MORE able to stay at hull speed. The only point of sail I have lost a bit of performance is downwind in surf. The other day, we sailed a hard 20-mile upwind leg, 17kts TWS and 25kts puffs, alongside a 2006 Dufour 40. With my previous light displacement, that would not be possible. I don't race, and to get a full crew on board, I'd have to take out the batteries.

Having said that, it's good if you can add payload to balance a boat, but I'm assuming that diferrent hull shapes will assimilate differently to payload, and where it is placed.

Just pointing out that numbers don't tell all, and the D36 did get a very good review from YW, especially regarding its manners and behavior.

Finally, why do all these tests and videos of boats show flat water only?

Paulo, glad you're back online!


----------



## daviid

Continuing our discussion on performance cruisers and their stability, Rob Humphreys who designs the Élan range amongst others clearly took a decision when he introduced the Élan 350 which would,definitely be on my short list of performance cruisers. 

The Élan 350 has a B/D ratio of 25.9% but it has a deep torpedo keel and a chine. The Élan 340 which was European Yacht of the Year in 2007 and which the Élan 350 replaces has a B/D of 29.8% also with a torpedo but no chine. At first, I had serious reservations about the reserve stability of the Élan 350 but on reflection Humphreys has chosen to make his performance range lighter including the amount of keel the boats are dragging around. I have no doubt that the increased beam, the torpedo keel and the chine were factors in introducing this paradigm shift in design of the performance range. As you know the Élan 350 also won European Yacht of the Year in 2011.

Apart from the Elan 350, the other boats in my short list by the way would be the Salona 35/38, the First 35, the Dufour 36P, the still to be introduced Jeanneau 3600 and the Dehler 35CR. I have deliberately not included the likes of Pogo 10.50, X yachts, Solaris 37, Opium 39, Grand Soleil because this is not a dream list


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 36p*



HMoll said:


> My perspective is a bit diferrent. I used to sail a 4,600kg 35' one-design racer cruiser with wife and two kids. A bit of a workload for singlehand cruising, especially upwind,where we usulaay get a 4'-5' chop. When I added 320kg of water ballast and another 430kg of batteries on top of the keel, I got a lot better behavior upwind, as it slices waves better. Also, on puffs, a more gentle transition to heel where it allows me time to trim as necessary. Let's say the boat is more civilized, and maybe MORE able to stay at hull speed. The only point of sail I have lost a bit of performance is downwind in surf. The other day, we sailed a hard 20-mile upwind leg, 17kts TWS and 25kts puffs, alongside a 2006 Dufour 40. With my previous light displacement, that would not be possible. I don't race, and to get a full crew on board, I'd have to take out the batteries.
> 
> Having said that, it's good if you can add payload to balance a boat, but I'm assuming that diferrent hull shapes will assimilate differently to payload, and where it is placed.
> 
> Just pointing out that numbers don't tell all, and the D36 did get a very good review from YW, especially regarding its manners and behavior.
> 
> Finally, why do all these tests and videos of boats show flat water only?
> 
> Paulo, glad you're back online!


Hi. thanks

Glad you have liked the Dufour 40, the previous model. It was my second choice (as a 5 year old used boat) if I could not get a Comet 41s. It was not by accident that I bought a medium weight relatively narrow boat with a good B/D ratio. It had to do with what you say.

I agree with you and the two Dufour 40, the previous model (the one you sailed and the new model) are a good example of what you say. The new one will be faster under most conditions but on the conditions you have described I think the older one would not only be faster but also more comfortable.

The new one is slightly heavier and has less 350kg of ballast for the same draft. I don't think that the new more efficient keel can give the same effect than the other one, takong into account the weight difference in ballast. The new boat weights 7950Kg and the old one weighted 7800kg on the basic version and 7300 on the performance version (the one that I was looking for).

This gives a B/D for the old Dufour 40p of 37% and the new one has only 29%. Both boat have about the same beam but the new one has less rocker and a flatter hull.

















Regarding your comments, there is a sailing situation where the lighter boat has a big advantage and that is in very light winds. Regarding going upwind, weight can only be a significant advantage (not considering comfort that is a relative subject) if that weight is on the ballast, given more righting moment to the boat and allowing it to carry more sail. But has we have seen the weight on the Dufour 36 is not in the ballast but in the hull. If you take a look ar the B/D ratio of the other mentioned boats (with the exception of the First) you are going to see that they are not only lighter but also that they carry proportionally much more ballast.

Look for instance to the J109: It weights less 1500kg than the Dufour and the difference in ballast is only 130kg. Or look at the new J111 that has a difference in weight of 2300kg for a difference in ballast of 330kg. Compared with really performance boats the Dufour looks like one, bur it just looks, the performances are not there.

As I have said, the boat will perform well with medium winds and that's all. With very light or stronger winds the boat will not be a match for true performance cruisers.

I know that we are going to see good results in racing, but those results will be obtained not by standard boats but by racing boats made by Dufour, boats that look like the Dufour that is advertised but that will have a lot less weight....and that will cost two times more.

Brands like Dehler or Salona advertise their boats (and prices) in the several configurations they can have, regarding weight, build materials and performance. Brands like Dufour or First only advertise their performance boats in standard configuration letting you think that the boats that win races are just the same as the one you have bought If you are a true high level racer they will have a boat for you (and probably at a correct price regarding the performance) but you go by the back door to talk with the guys that deal with that and is no use to look for that boat in any catalog: You will not find it.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Continuing our discussion on performance cruisers and their stability, Rob Humphreys who designs the Élan range amongst others clearly took a decision when he introduced the Élan 350 which would,definitely be on my short list of performance cruisers.
> 
> The Élan 350 has a B/D ratio of 25.9% but it has a deep torpedo keel and a chine. The Élan 340 which was European Yacht of the Year in 2007 and which the Élan 350 replaces has a B/D of 29.8% also with a torpedo but no chine. At first, I had serious reservations about the reserve stability of the Élan 350 but on reflection Humphreys has chosen to make his performance range lighter including the amount of keel the boats are dragging around. I have NO doubt that the increased beam, the torpedo keel and the chine were factors in introducing this paradigm shift in design of the performance range. As you know the Élan 350 also one European Yacht of the Year in 2011.
> 
> The other boats in my short list by the way would be the Salona 35/38, the First 35, the Dufour 36P, the still to be introduced Jeanneau 3600 and the Dehler 35CR. I have deliberately not included the likes of Pogo 10.50, X yachts, Solaris 37, Opium 39 because this is not a dream list


You have to decide what kind of performances and comfort you want to favor in a boat. I like very much the Elan 350 but in what regards sailing the choices are different from the Dehler or the Salona that have a similar design conception even if the Dehler offer a bigger B/D ratio. Of course with Salona you can always talk with them to put more weight on the keel and they will design one for you.

I guess that for a definitive choice a week sailing on each boat would be the ideal and will not bring the price of the boat much higher. You can say that you are testing the boat to eventually buy it and if the charter is the builder or the dealer to whom you are eventually going to buy the boat they will make you very special prices especially if you do it out of season. It is also good fun and good for this thread since you would post your coments

I would leave the Dufour out of that choice but that is just me. That weight is just too much for a 36ft. Jesus my 2002 Bavaria 36 weighted less than that

If you can afford a Salona 38, even a low spec boats will be faster and a better cruising boat that any other of those boats. The difference in interior space is really big as the seaworthiness but I am suspect in what regards that boat:

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*sailing/racing with a lot of wind*

Two great movies:


----------



## PCP

*Ancient Ships*

I was looking at Google Earth, starting thinking about next years sailing season. I was thinking into passing the Corinth channel, maybe on the way back, to leave the boat in Preveza when I got curious about the channel. I new the Corinth wealth in old times was connected with trading and the strategic point on a narrow stretch of land between the Ionic and Aegean sea and I had the idea that a Chanel existed since ancient times.

I was wrong they tried but found a cheaper solution, a quite incredible one that worked for 1500 years. Take a look: fantastic movies


----------



## PCP

*Sailing is awesome*

Great sailing video:


----------



## PCP

*Performance Island Packet*

Big surprise: Island packet is going to launch a series of performance cruisers. They will be called Blue Jacket line and will be designed by Tim Jackett (ex-President and Chief Designer at Tartan and C&C) in collaboration with Bob Johnson (CEO and Chief Designer at Island Packet).

The first one is already on its way to production and even if in what regards cabin design I find the boat too classic, not to say old fashioned, in what regards hull design and technical characteristics I love the boat.

Well, the keel could be more modern and efficient (it is similar to the one on my boat) but in what regards all the rest it looks perfect to me. In fact it is very close to the Comet 41s in what regards weight, ballast and hull design. It fits on the Italian way of looking to performance cruisers.

A relatively narrow boat with a good B/D a deep draft (2.30) and a big stability that is the opposite in design conception of the also new Tartan(and the CC121). I like a lot more this one.

Well, there are some things I don't like: The traveler over the cabin and only one winch on each side of the cockpit that will have to be used for the mainsail and the genoa, but I believe that could be changed if clients ask otherwise.

Technical Characteristics 
LOA: 39' 10" (12.14 m)
LWL: 35' 0" (10.67 m)
BEAM: 12' 4" (3.76 m)
DRAFT: 7' 5" (2.29 m) deep
5' 2" (1.56 m) shoal
DISP: 16, 500 lbs (7,484 kg)
BALLAST: 6, 100 lbs (2,767 kg) deep
SAIL AREA: 883 sq ft (82.03 sq m) (100% FT)
MAST HEIGHT: 62' 6" (19.05 m)
POWER: 40 HP (30 kW)
FUEL: 40 US gal (151 l)
WATER: 110 US gal (417 l)
WASTE: 25 US gal (80 l)
SA/D: 21.8
D/L: 172
DESIGNER: Tim Jackett w/Bob Johnson, N.A.


















































































They say about the boat:

*Sailplan and rig: 
The large sailplan is a further refinement of the Solent style rig featuring standard double head sails with a working jib and a lightweight 150% reacher that mounts on the integral bow prod, both furled with Harken® systems. The working jib is fitted with a carbon fiber Hoyt Boom® that is self-tending and improves performance with its close sheeting and self-vanging feature while the large reacher boosts performance in light air or when off the wind. The fully battened mainsail is equipped with a standard electric halyard winch and a low friction Battcar system and drops easily into a carbon fiber pocket boom with an integral cover and lazy jack system.

This easily managed rig has ample horsepower and versatility for optimizing performance in a wide range of conditions. All sheets lead to the cockpit near the helm and primary winches for short-handed convenience. 
On deck: 
On deck, anchor handling has been simplified and made especially convenient with a cleverly designed roller recessed in the bow prod providing secure stowage of the anchor and directing the rode to the anchor locker with a (optional) below deck electric windlass that keeps the deck and profile uncluttered. A deck hatch gives access to this area. Wide side decks with full length raised bulwarks, double lifelines, bow and stern rails and cabin top handrails provide security on deck.

The large cockpit has deep coamings, long seats and twin helm stations with great visibility and ready access to all sail control lines. Seat hatches provide access to storage areas and a (optional) central drop-leaf table makes for a great social area. Hinged transom doors open to the integral stern platform with a retractable swim ladder under a central hatch.

Materials used: 
The Blue Jacket's hull and deck are made with a state of the art vacuum infusion process utilizing 100% vinylester resin, quadraxial knitted E-glass reinforcements and a structural foam core. The end result is superior strength and stiffness with significantly reduced weight compared to conventional laminates. &#8230;

The use of premium structural foam coring produces better interlaminar bond properties with freedom from potential core deterioration compared to other choices and allows for an industry-best extended hull and deck warranty. *

http://www.bluejacketyachts.com/

..


----------



## PCP

*Comet 41s*










I had said on the last post that it seems to me that some characteristics of the new line of the Island Packet are similar to the ones of the Comet 41s, a boat that has already some years (6). Does that mean that the design of the new performance Island Packet is already dated?

Rarely a 6 years old design remains up to date in what regards sailing characteristics with new models, so when I found out a recent test sail of the Comet 41s (9/2012) I was very curious about what they would say about the boat and if they would feel that the design and sailing characteristics were already dated. I mean, on all the sail tests they said very well about the boat but that was 5 or 6 years ago.

I was very curious because one of the reasons I chose this boat was precisely because it seemed to me that its design was very modern for the time it was designed and that it was still actual.

On other hand, many on this thread had asked me about my impressions on the boat. I had try to comply but I am afraid to be partial (and that is natural) so nothing better than to read what the guys of Yachts and Yachting say about the Comet 41s they have tested last month.

I would say that they confirm many of the things I have said about the boat and in some they are even more optimistic than myself.

The conclusion:

*Comet 41S Review: Verdict

Overall it's hard not to be impressed by the Comet 41S. You step aboard wondering 'Why would you when there are many 40-41-footers around?' and step off fully engaged by its subtle, very persuasive charm and good performance.
It's a bit of a statement boat, something different for the discerning owner who does not simply want to follow the crowd. There is so much neat detailing and, for the price, quality workmanship that, for me, it stands out as virtually unique among boats I have tested over the last few years. It comes from a yard which appears to sit comfortably astride the traditional notions of craftsmanship, but still embracing what the contemporary racing sailor wants in terms of modern mid-tech build for performance and strength, well developed and refined layout and a real cruising capacity.*

You can read the rest here:

Yachts and Yachting Magazine










....


----------



## HMoll

I agree that a 6 year design is new. I'm careful to have a strong opinion about the new superwide sterns a-la-Vendee or Volvo. Example, Elan 350. For cruising, I simply cannot viualize them on hard seas, given light displacement too. Must wear seatbelts at the helm, not to fall about 6' vertical to the leeward deck! Good on a Bene Oceanis or Sense, though. Makes a kickass entertainment cockpit at anchor!. Now look at Comet, Salona, and J-Boats for fast & seaworthy shapes. The comet looks very fast and sexy, especially without the Formula 1 rear spoiler.:laugher

One idea for this thread: Paulo, you should post a new thread: Hiring Naval Architect in "Interesting Sailboats". The conversation could get very interesting beyond RM, B/D & SA/D. Hull shapes, payload…

Second idea: The year is coming to an end. THIS THREAD DESERVES A "BOTY AWARDS" SESSION, with categories and all.

Cheers, 

Hans


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> I agree that a 6 year design is new. I'm careful to have a strong opinion about the new superwide sterns a-la-Vendee or Volvo. Example, Elan 350. For cruising, I simply cannot viualize them on hard seas, given light displacement too. Must wear seatbelts at the helm, not to fall about 6' vertical to the leeward deck! Good on a Bene Oceanis or Sense, though. Makes a kickass entertainment cockpit at anchor!. Now look at Comet, Salona, and J-Boats for fast & seaworthy shapes. The comet looks very fast and sexy, especially without the Formula 1 rear spoiler.:laugher
> 
> One idea for this thread: Paulo, you should post a new thread: Hiring Naval Architect in "Interesting Sailboats". The conversation could get very interesting beyond RM, B/D & SA/D. Hull shapes, payload&#8230;
> 
> Second idea: The year is coming to an end. THIS THREAD DESERVES A "BOTY AWARDS" SESSION, with categories and all.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Hans


Yes , I agree that it looks better without the "Spoiler" but the one that would get the sun on his head is me not you.

To that list, I mean similar typed boats, you can join X-Yachts, Luffe, winner, Grand-Soleil, Italia yachts, Solaris and almost all Italian performance boats.

But I would not agree with you that beamy large transom boats are unsafe on hard seas. True that being high up on the deck is a disadvantage and the standard boats don't come equipped with the stuff racers have to deal with it (support for the feet and safety belt) but you can mount it and even if those boats have that problem close upwind in all other sailing positions, specially dead downwind, they are easier and more stable than the type of boats you have mentioned. However it is true that they will be less comfortable upwind.

It is also true that you can go close to the wind at 80% of the boat potential and in that case the heeling of the boat would be a lot less than in one of the boats you have mentioned and you don't have that problem anymore.

Regarding standard boats I have to say that none of the mentioned boats come standard properly equipped for bad weather and I mean fixation points for harness. One of the reasons that I took my boat to Rome (Fumicino) for the winter is to have it equipped with the right stuff and have the job made by Comar guys (the builders of Comet). As you know this is a cored boat with a cored deck and if the job is not well done it will give problems that can be rather bad.

I take the opportunity to recommend the services of Luca, the guy that is in charge of Gestinautica, a small shipyard in Fumicino near Rome. Not only he is good (he is the after sales man from Comar, the one that deals with any problems the boats have) as the prices for his work and for staying on a 9 month basis are very acceptable, not to mention that Fumicino is one of the two Roman airports with easy and inexpensive access from all Europe.

The place is also nice and has a supermarket at only 150m, take a look:



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New solo transat record.*

Alex Thompson has done it again: He had skipped (alone) the Hugo Boss (Open 60) to another record and this time a big one, The Solo Transatlantic record.

He did not only beat it he smashes it by a huge margin: more than 24 hours.

The new record it is an incredible time considering solo sailing, just 8 days 22 hours 8 minutes.

Decidedly Hugo Boss and Alex likes to rock in high winds and steep seas.


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

A thought I had the other day, this comes from an article the UK rag Yachting did a few yrs ago comparing an X34c to a Dehler34 when both came out. I'm wondering if DuFour is not shall I say detuning the rig so they are coming in just under the IRC division that breaks at .95 IIRC, ie the D34/34e being a .94 as you mentioned, so to be in the slower catagory on purpose, hoping that a slightly longer WL boat will make up for lack of SA/D. Xyachts in that article described doing this to a degree, so the X34 would not compete in the same division as the X35! Meanwhile, Dehler took the 34, and upped the SA/D etc so as to get about a .96-.97 rating IIRC, which put it in the next higher/faster division. 

With this in mind......could Dufour be purposely sand bagging the speed on that line? Not sure why IMHO, but based on the article I can find online if you need to read it.......I'm inclined to say they have.

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> A thought I had the other day, this comes from an article the UK rag Yachting did a few yrs ago comparing an X34c to a Dehler34 when both came out. I'm wondering if DuFour is not shall I say detuning the rig so they are coming in just under the IRC division that breaks at .95 IIRC, ie the D34/34e being a .94 as you mentioned, so to be in the slower catagory on purpose, hoping that a slightly longer WL boat will make up for lack of SA/D. Xyachts in that article described doing this to a degree, so the X34 would not compete in the same division as the X35! Meanwhile, Dehler took the 34, and upped the SA/D etc so as to get about a .96-.97 rating IIRC, which put it in the next higher/faster division.
> 
> With this in mind......could Dufour be purposely sand bagging the speed on that line? Not sure why IMHO, but based on the article I can find online if you need to read it.......I'm inclined to say they have.
> 
> Marty


Maybe, but that is quite stupid for all except the ones that want to win on compensated time no matter if they are slow in real time. For that you can also buy an old and slow boat with a good rating. That's a lot less expensive.

Anyway for doing that you don't need to put more weight on the boat, you can just do that with a smaller mast and less sail area and that's a better solution in what regards making a good sailboat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Americas cup*

Just look at this

It is spectacular the way Artemis was able to avoid Oracle. That is F1 speed!!!


----------



## PCP

*Stephens Waring & White*

I love wooden boats and for many years I have signed "Wooden boats" a great magazine if you like classical boats. There are some expensive building techniques that can provide a low maintenance but generally if more traditional methods are used they need a lot of maintenance to remain in top shape (I know I have recovered and owned one for years).

If I had the money to pay to a skilled worker to maintain one and the money to maintain it in top shape I would probably fall in love with one. It is easy to fall in love with a wooden boat, they have a soul while plastic ones are just nice boats.

Among the ones that design wooden boats, with a classic look but a modern under-body Stephens Waring & White are among my top list. Just look at some of the boats:


----------



## Faster

I think you have to give a nod to Spirit Yachts too....






Spirit Yachts Modern Classic Yachts


----------



## PCP

*Classical fast boats*

Thanks for posting, yes, Spirit yachts are very nice and fast:






But regarding those that are made in small series and are not absolutely one off, I just love this one. I guess that if I have the money I would be very tempted.
















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Great sailing video*

Sailing is awesome. Enjoy


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Grand Soleil 43 and GS 39*

Now that Dusseldorf is approaching there are more interesting new boats coming to the market (to be presented at the boat show) than the ones I can post. You could give me a help on that

Certainly an interesting one is the Grand Soleil 43, especially after the big success of the 39.

Before talking about the 43 some more words about the 39.

When testing the 39 the tester from Yachtingworld mentioned that the boat had a problem on the steering and rudder being to easy to lost control.

I found that rather strange. I have read several other test sails about the boat and nothing was mentioned. Also the number of boats sold seem to indicate that is a very good sailboat. Of course to really know it that is the case I would have to try it but face to the number of other testers that did not mention that and on the contrary say that the steering is very precise I tend to believe that is just that. A racing car has a very light and fast steering, that a casual driver may find to fast and dangerous, it seems to me that it is also the case with the Grand Soleil. Nothing wrong with that if you know how to handle it, in fact the kind of sailors that will buy that boat will be looking for a steering like that.

Of course, I can be wrong, as the other guys that tested the boat, some in muscular circumstances. Anyway, before buying one I would test sail the boat to see if I like it or not but I would say that the chances are that I would like it. That is my style of boat.

Here you have another test by a Yachts and Yachting. They tested the boat with 6 to 9 K wind (and to be fair they could not have noticed what was referred by the YatchingWorld tester, that tested the boat with more wind. They say about the boat:

*It is hard to fault the GS39 for ease of use. It was a delight to sail...the boat has space beyond her size, and yet will be easily sailed by two on extended cruises. ...A stiff, easily driven hull and excellent, high quality sail controls...*

Yachts and Yachting Magazine

...........

Now in what regards the new 43 and looking at its technical characteristics I am particularly impressed by the D/B ratio (35%) considering that with that ballast the boat will have a 2m draft and a highly efficient torpedo keel. The ratio is even more impressing if we consider that the hull is not beamy by modern standards, but it not also narrow (4m) and that will give the boat a lot of hull form stability. So this will be a stiff boat, no doubt.

The boat is also light (8800kg) and that with the big stiffness will make it a very fast boat specially upwind on a breeze.

Grand Soleil - Cantiere del Pardo

On the outside it looks like the big brother of the 39 (the designer is the same) and if you liked that one you will like this one. The interior looks just great to me. It seems to be a great performance cruiser.

We will see if the test reports are as good as on the 39 and if the boat is as successful as the 39, that will bring the Grand Soleil shipyard to a very solid position. Is good to remember that some few years back they were almost bankrupt and were saved by Bavaria that bought them. it seems that they have made a great job, better than the one of Hanse with Dehler, maintaining the boat quality and helping them to be competitive again.

Some photos and a video with the first one being built.


----------



## Mr W

Hi Paolo,

As you know I have both Pogo and Dragonfly on my shortlist, both very fast boats. I know the DF 32 will be faster than the Pogo 30, I suspect the DF might also be faster than a Pogo 12.50, although not by much. I saw a youtube clip of the mighty fast flagship Pogo 50, from EYOTY testing I think:






Well... maybe I should stick to three hulls 

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Trimaran versus fast monohull*

Hi, nice video, thanks for posting it!

There are no surprises there, at least for me. But they only show few images of both boats upwind and even so you could see that the Pogo points better and it is not properly a boat that points very well.

Here you can see some images of a J122 against a F31, that is probably faster than the Dragonfly 32, where that is evident.






This year I had the opportunity of sailing near a trimaran, I think it was a Corsair 31, both boats close upwind and that was very evident. We arrived at almost time at the same destination. The sea had some short steep waves that seem to slow it down more than they slow my boat and he only went clearly away when he arrive near shore and he got flat water. On worst sea conditions with more wind and waves I am sure I would not only be faster but would have a much more comfortable and drier sailing. After a given limit of sail and sea I can continue safely while he was to look for shelter.

I know we are talking about two different sized boats but a 30ft trimaran costs about the same as a 40ft sailboat and besides that would be the case even with a bigger trimaran:

If we look at the results of races that are made with Trimarans and Monohulls, even if that are downwind sails (transats) we can see that when the weather is ruff an Open 60 can normally beat a 50ft racing trimaran and also that almost all monohulls survive bad weather while the causalities on the trimarans are huge and many abandon with damaged boats or capsizes.

Of course, when they get good weather and relatively flat water the trimarans are much faster.

So, regarding your choice it all has to do with the use you are going to give to the boat. Sure, a trimaran would be more fun but it has its limitations, specially a small one like the 32 or even more the 27 and I am not talking only about the interior space or price.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*It 13.98*

Another test sail, this one by the Italians of "Fare Vela". They say as well about the boat as the guys from YachtingWorld.

Gosh, this boat is not only fast but also beautiful


----------



## PCP

*Solaris 37*

And since we talk about beautiful Italian boats, one of my favorites. The only thing I don't like is the price






And talking about this type of boats, I mean the ones that have a balance in the performances that but more emphasis on the upwind performance (like my own boat) an opposed balance regarding boats like the Pogo or Elan 350 (that favors downwind performance), take a look at the performance of the Solaris 48 in what regards close to the wind sailing.

Of course that is apparent wind, but even so, over 8K at 22/23º of the wind on a performance cruiser is very good, even in almost flat water.

take a look:






I was impressed with the performance of my own boat (6.5K with 2m waves at 27º of the wind) but I guess that this one in the same conditions will do a lot better.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 415*

Well, I did not have talked much about the new Hanse 415. Now that Hanse and Farevela had put videos on internet its time to make some comments.

First of all let me tell that regarding the Hanse 415 I am partial. It is a love and hate thing. I love some things, like the possibility they have to make you an epoxy hull for not too much money ( I hope they still offer that possibility), the strength of the boat, the B/D ratio and I really dislike the interior and the lack of a proper traveler.

They want to pass the idea that the Hanse is a performance boat, well it is not. It is a relatively heavy boat (8.900kg) and has not much sail (87m2). They claim (on the videos) that the boat is the fastest in its class ********, many boats are as fast or faster, starting by the jeanneau 409 (7860kg for 78.9m2 of sail) and ending on the new Benetau Oceanis 41 (8.450kg for 83.8 m2 of sail.

Not a big difference between the three boats but the fastest boat in this class is the Jeanneau 409 in its performance version (still not a performance cruiser) with (7450kg and 89.5m2 of sail).

A typical performance cruiser like the Salona 41 has a much bigger SA/D (7450kg for 111.1m2 of sail).

The Hanse has a good D/B ratio a modern keel, a good hull and self tacking head sail (that is also offered by jeanneau and probably by Beneteau). The more substantial difference is the epoxy hull option that I cannot find on the list of options for this model. I hope that they continue to offer it. There are also other differences like beam and B/D ratio.

It is a solid boat, relatively fast as all modern cruisers, solid and well built. It is difficult to chose between the several mass production European cruisers. They are all well designed and the differences are mainly in what regards personal taste and some differences in what regards sailing hardware and also sailing qualities, being the Oceanis and the Hanse the beamier boats (4.2m; 4.17m) and the Jeanneau the narrower with 3.99m.

Regarding B/D the Hanse has 0.326, the Oceanis 0.272 and the Jeanneau as 0.301. The drafts are similar as well as the keels.This will make the Hanse the stiffer boat (beam and B/D ratio) and a very good and fast boat in a breeze but also a seaworthy boat. Of course the Jeanneau is less beamy and that will make it probably a better and more comfortable boat upwind.

As I said a solid boat, not only by build but also on the sea


----------



## daviid

*Hanse*

Hi Paulo

Hanse's new 5 series - 345 which replaces the 355, 385, 415, 445 etc - are aimed at the charter market. Nothing wrong with that but they are definitely more cruiser than performance cruiser. With Dehler being part of the Hanse group, the Dehler is the performance cruiser in the group.

There is a lot to like about the 5 series if you are a cruiser. They all have cockpit tables, all the lines are lead back to the genoa winches for short handed sailing and for seperating the cockpit into a working/chilling area, twin helms for easy access, bathing platforms, self tacking jibs with large mainsails, no travelers in the cockpit. I know that you don't agree with me on this but I like their interiors which are very functional less is more Scandinavian loft type designs which owners can personalize themselves. Performance wise, Judel and Vrolijk have designed fast modern hulls that are a little heavier than the other AWB manufacturers - Dufour excluded - on account of the keel reinforcements in GRP. The increased weight is offset to an extent by having self tacking jibs that are maximised both in terms of size and roach which is controlled by vertical battens. Previous generation Hanses were known for their hull and rig focus but I think this is changing with the new generation.

As you say, it is difficult to distinguish many of the mainstream cruisers these days with personal taste playing the major part. The one part which counts heavily in favour of Hanse is their owners forum which is absolutely invaluable to any owner. The advice is boat specific as well as general and I am sure that there is no problem that cannot be solved collectively.

The Dufour 335 and Hanse 345 I think have some very interesting features for smaller cruisers and are a little ahead of the competition.

All just my opinion of course :laugher


----------



## PCP

*Re: Hanse*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> Hanse's new 5 series - 345 which replaces the 355, 385, 415, 445 etc - are aimed at the charter market. Nothing wrong with that but they are definitely more cruiser than performance cruiser. With Dehler being part of the Hanse group, the Dehler is the performance cruiser in the group.
> 
> There is a lot to like about the 5 series if you are a cruiser. They all have cockpit tables, all the lines are lead back to the genoa winches for short handed sailing and for seperating the cockpit into a working/chilling area, twin helms for easy access, bathing platforms, self tacking jibs with large mainsails, no travelers in the cockpit. I know that you don't agree with me on this but I like their interiors which are very functional less is more Scandinavian loft type designs which owners can personalize themselves. Performance wise, Judel and Vrolijk have designed fast modern hulls that are a little heavier than the other AWB manufacturers - Dufour excluded - on account of the keel reinforcements in GRP. The increased weight is offset to an extent by having self tacking jibs that are maximised both in terms of size and roach which is controlled by vertical battens. Previous generation Hanses were known for their hull and rig focus but I think this is changing with the new generation.
> 
> As you say, it is difficult to distinguish many of the mainstream cruisers these days with personal taste playing the major part.
> 
> The Dufour 335 and Hanse 345 I think have some very interesting features for smaller cruisers and are a little ahead of the competition.
> 
> All just my opinion of course :laugher


Hi David!

I agree that for most cruisers, that don't value maximum control and performance, a over the cabin traveler is better than a traveler near the wheel since it allow a big bimini. You cannot see properly the sails with that bimini and therefore are not able to trim that correctly at all times but main stream cruisers don't care about that.

Anyway if they are performance cruisers they are looking to the wrong boat.

The problem is that the Hanse, like the oceanis, doesn't have a traveler at all, not even over the cabin, but the same system Oceanis use to control the main sail, a system that is easy but less efficient than a traveler and certainly cheaper. From the mentioned boats only the Jeanneau has a good traveler over the cabin.

Regarding the winches I never sailed the boat but it seems to me that if the rigging is properly organized having the four winches on the cockpit nearer the wheel makes sense and will give a better flexibility to their use allowing to have one for the mainsail and other for the geenaker or a bigger genoa and that is better than what Jeanneau and Oceanis offer. Not has good as what Bavaria offers since it is the only boat that offers has an option the 4 winches on the cockpit and the two over the cabin.

I am curious about the absolute absence of mention about an epoxy hull. Can you ask on the Hanse Forum if that is not offered anymore as an option and if they will make it how much weight saves regarding the standard boat?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

Hi Paulo

When I was in Croatia last month, I noticed an Elan 350 with a bimini - not a helm bimini - with a slit/opening in it for the main sheet. It is the first time I have seen this.

On our Hanse 350, I have found that if you lead the mainsheet and jib sheet to the genoa winches whilst leaving the coachroof clutches open, I then have all the controls at hand. Even if our bimini is up, I am able to see the sail trim on the main quite easily by looking behind the bimini and up. Whilst I would still prefer a traveller for the control it gives you, it is the best set-up I can get.

The Elan 350 with bimini would be sailed in a similar way,albeit faster and with better control.

I have enquired about the epoxy option from Hanse on the forum - you can follow the responses here

http://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7002&PID=53871&#53871

Cheers

David


----------



## PCP

daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> When I was in Croatia last month, I noticed an Elan 350 with a bimini - not a helm bimini - with a slit/opening in it for the main sheet. It is the first time I have seen this.
> 
> On our Hanse 350, I have found that if you lead the mainsheet and jib sheet to the genoa winches whilst leaving the coachroof clutches open, I then have all the controls at hand. Even if our bimini is up, I am able to see the sail trim on the main quite easily by looking behind the bimini and up. Whilst I would still prefer a traveller for the control it gives you, it is the best set-up I can get.
> 
> The Elan 350 with bimini would be sailed in a similar way,albeit faster and with better control.
> 
> I have enquired about the epoxy option from Hanse on the forum - you can follow the responses here
> 
> EPOXY HULL OPTION - myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum
> 
> Cheers
> 
> David


Hum, I doubt that set up for the bimini on the Elan 350 works well. Another and more practical solution is asking on a performance cruiser for the traveler to be installed over the cabin and then you can have a big bimini. I don't know if all the cruisers racers will do that but I know that Salona has that as an option.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

PCP said:


> Hum, I doubt that set up for the bimini on the Elan 350 works well. Another and more practical solution is asking on a performance cruiser for the traveler to be installed over the cabin and then you can have a big bimini. I don't know if all the cruisers racers will do that but I know that Salona has that as an option.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I have been thinking about a traveller on the coachroof for a while but I have some doubts about it. These are:


the position means that you need to leave the helm if sailing short handed
the mainsheet control is unaffected by a traveller on the coachroof. in other words the mainsheet still needs to be controlled by a winch as opposed to manually using the fine tune adjuster which is one of the cockpit travellers main advantages
many experienced sailors argue that the coachroof traveller is useless in strong winds. Once released, it is very difficult to bring it back to center
the track is too short to have a real impact
the traveller's position still means you are engaging in mid boom sheeting which places the boom at risk in terms of a breakage;
can get in the way of the sprayhood
expensive to add on later

The positives include:


you can engage autopilot and sail the boat from the companionway by feathering the main in the gusts using the traveller
you can adjust the traveller to create the desired twist in the mainsail
you can position the traveller to windward to center the boom when sailing upwind
safer than a cockpit traveller because there are no sheets lying around or blocks to hit you on the head with 

If you were not able to have a cockpit traveller for any reason, do you think it would be worth doing away with the block set-up seen on many cruisers these days to have a coachroof traveller, all things considered?


----------



## PCP

*Traveler*

Well you cannot have all things: A big bimini and a perfect control of the main sail.

On the Bavaria 36 I had an over the cabin traveler it was not very big, but I have seen smaller. They are always smaller to the ones on the cockpit and if too small they will be doing almost nothing.

The one on the Jeanneau 409 is big for an over the cabin traveler:










Assuming solo sail, you work with one of those differently, regarding boat control. In a gust you don't open the traveler, but the main sail sheet (from the winch). Basically you work always first with the main sheet and only after you put the boat on autopilot to go forward and adjust the traveler. With the traveler on the cockpit you use first the traveler and only then the main sheet and if needed again the traveler. You use a lot more the travel if it is near you on the cockpit.

Regarding not being able to use the over cockpit traveler with lots of wind I never had the problem. After 13K of real wind you have to use the winches but that's all.

To add a traveler on an existing boat I don't know, it will have to be very well done, the forces are really big. In many boats the deck is cored and you have to know what you are doing to install one and it will not be cheap. It makes a lot more sense have one installed by the shipyard.

Regarding efficiency, if the traveler is not very small it will provide a better control of the mainsail shape, regarding no traveler at all or the system Hanse and Oceanis use on the main sail. In fact a traveler separates too movements: Pulling the sail down (with the mainsheet) and open sideways the angle. without travel those two movements are not separated.

If it is worth the money and effort it depends on you and the way you sail. The difference in speed will only be some tenths of a knot, half knot at most. It all depends how much you like to sail and take the max out of your sailboat. Obviously many of the big brands think that is useless for the type of sailors that buy their boats.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Rm 1260*

Well, if someone likes to sail fast and to trim the sails, wants a fast boat with more space than a true performance cruiser and also a boat already more adapted to offshore cruising (cutter rig and all) I guess the answer in what regards affordable prices is RM.

The nice success they enjoy in France for years among cruisers that really cruise a lot has been expanding all over Europe, first to Nordic countries and it seems that now it is for UK, at least if the interest from sailors is so big as the one that Yachtingworld tester showed for the boat. I hardly remember a so enthusiastic review.

Well the boats are great at that is not new. When I test sailed one (the previous model) I was the day before with JPK in its shipyard to see the JPK 110 and casually tell him that next day I was going to sail a RM1200. He said to me it was a great boat for cruising and this guy knows one or two things about boats. I guess that he likes so much the boat that 2 years after he made a sort of more sportive RM, the JPK 380

Take a look David, this one has a traveler on the cockpit






*MOVIE:*

http://tv.yacht.de/video/RM-1260%3A...xklusiv-Test/02a21796d1aed8c31ce2ef877dcdf454

http://www.allboatsavenue.com/nouve...lun-des-meilleurs-40-pieds-du-marche-europeen


----------



## PCP

*ISAF sailor of the year*

No, it is not about the sailor that is going to be chosen by ISAF (world governing body for the sport of sailing) as sailor of the year *it is about ISAF incompetence*.

If we compare ISAF with for instance FIA (Cars federation) we can see that in what regards autosport there are clearly defined levels of competitiveness, from amateur racing to several levels of professional racing that end on one side in the F1 championship and on other on the world Rally championship.

If a driver of the year was chosen among FIA drivers It would certainly be one chosen between the drivers of the top championships. It would be ridicolous that the driver was chosen among one of the initiation classes, like Karting or F3.

In what regards sailing it is a big mess, not only there are not a clear definition of the top classes as ISAF does not have managed to promote real international championships that define those classes.

But if we talk about top classes he will be talking about volvo Ocean race, America's cup and Vendee Globe. The sailors that compete there in many cases were world champions in dinghy classes in their youth before continuing a sailing carer that led them to the top racing classes.

Well, ISAF is so confused and I would say incompetent that not only does not promote sailing as a world competitive global sport as most of the times chose for sailor of the year sailors from the dinghy classes.

It was as if FIA nominated driver of the year a kid from the Karting world championship. That makes no sense but this year ISAF has made even less sense: Among the nominees the name of Franck Camas (that was proposed) was not maintained.

As you all know Frank Camas won the Volvo Ocean race on its first try. Well we could understand that other sailor won the price, but not being nominated?

That's a sympthom as things go wrong in ISAF. The nominees?:

Nathan Outerridge et Iain Jensen (Gold in 49er), Matthew Belcher et Malcolm Page (Gold in 470), Tom Sligsby (Gold in Laser), Loïck Peyron (Jules Verne record) and Ben Ainslie (gold for the 4th consecutive time in laser and finn classes). Ben Ainsle has already been three times ISAF sailor of the year.

Well, going on with that FIA comparison it was like a Kart champion had won for 3 times the title of driver of the year while driving carts. Crazy isn't it? Well somebody should tell Ben Aislie that he has already age to leave the dinghy's and start sailing with the big boys on the fastest and top racing classes, in sailing boats not dinghy's.

Regarding ISAF, it is even worse, somebody should fire them for incompetence

,,


----------



## PCP

*Alex and Hugo Boss*

After beating the Atlantic record for Solo sailors, Alex Thomson is more then motivated for the Vendee. Take a look:


----------



## PCP

*Barcolana 2012*

Look at that






Ai ai ai!


----------



## PCP

*Comet 41s*

When I bought the boat there were a lot of guys that asked information about the boat. I had searched on the internet for a movie and I could only find one about the interior (that I had posted).

Well, now I have found one, In Arabic . I will poste it, a bit late, but better late than never. You can see some neat features like that one that permits the use of any of the front winches for both sides of the "piano" or the big locker in the back of the boat. Pity they don't show the sails locker that is a unique feature among 40ft performance cruisers.

Guys from Comar said to me that they are maintaining this model but they are going to present a two wheels version soon.


----------



## PCP

*Philippe Briand*

Just look at this animal:






Bristolian, a Philippe Briand design and in my opinion the most beautiful til now.

Briand has other great designs and beautiful boats like the Mari-Cha IV and his responsible for the design of some of the best and more attractive production boats around: First 45 and 50; Jeanneau 409 and 439, 53 and 57, 45 and 50DS, OVNI 495 and ALubat 58 (among others).

There are on the water about 10 000 boats designed by him and I bet some of you never heard about the guy.

He is one of the best contemporary NA in my opinion. It is French and as most of French NA started as a racer and won several word championships sailing his own designs (the Half Ton Cup and the One Ton Cup during the 1980's)

Take a look:


----------



## PCP

*Ker 40*

Jason Ker is one of my favorite boat designers. It is probably the designer whose boats are winning more especially if we consider that they are not many. The list of victories this year is impressive:

Ker Yacht Design

And one of the boats that is winning is the Ker 40, probably the fastest 40ft in real time. Take a look:






This boat is a lot faster than a 40class boat but it is a much more difficult boat to sail at 100% especially downwind and a good crew is needed and even so






The boat is so stiff, has so much ballast and stability that even after broaching, instead of being knocked down and stop (as most boats), keep sailing at a big angle of heel making it difficult to stop it and regaining full control

..


----------



## PCP

*Seamanship*

Talking about the accidents and particularly capsizes, there is not needed a big breaking wave to capsize a boat if the wave get the boat on the right angle and right position. On this video we can see how many boats, including one being towed can make it to safety while just one is capsized and rolled. I don't think it has nothing to do with the type of boat, I mean this one was not more or less seaworthy than the others that had make it to safety, but with good or bad seamanship.

The guy is not only sailing too close to the shore, where there are more breakers, as it is sailing perpendicularly to the waves with too much sail.

Take a look:


----------



## PCP

*Capsizes*

And talking about capsizes, a bad one:


----------



## PCP

*Seamanship*

Some more videos: A guy with an Halberg-Rassy 43 doing the wrong thing and getting away with it:






a small Bavaria 32 well sailed in a gale:






and a guy that lost control of the boat ( no adequate sails) and is in trouble. Notice that is an heavy displacement boat that is supposed to be very seaworthy but the guy doesn't have any storm sail (he even has a bimini on) and the boat is just boobing around out of control at the mercy of the sea:






and these guys sailing safely in bad weather with adequate sails:


----------



## PCP

*HR 412; XC 42; Swedestar 415*

The Halberg Rassy 412 has been a great media success and I don't doubt that is going to sell well, take a look:






But I have to say that if I had the money and I was looking for that type of boat I would chose without any hesitation the XC 42. In fact the new HR 412 like the 372, comes as a HR response to the more modern line of X yacht cruisers but even if the XC is now several years old it looks more modern than the new HR, especially on the transom and on the two wheel set up against a single wheel on the HR.

In what regards dimensions and type of hulls there is not much difference, the beam is identical (4.10 to 4.11), the XC is almost a 1ft longer (12.81 to 12.61) and due to that but mostly due to almost more 985kg of ballast, the HR is 300kg lighter. Fact is that if we consider the boat without ballast, despite being longer, the XC is almost 700kg lighter.

This gives to the XC a much bigger B/D ratio (0.44 to 0.36) and as both hulls have a similar beam and the XC has more 11cm of draft, the XC is a much more stiff boat with a bigger RM and able to carry more sail.

Curiously on the Standard version, with Jib, the HR has more sail, 86.8 to 90m2, but the extra stiffness will give an advantage to the XC in strong wind. In lighter wind it will allow it to carry bigger Genoas and a bigger Gennaker making it faster. With the Genoa, that is an option, the XC will carry 111.3 m2 and can carry a Geennaker with 158.2m2. The total area of the HR with a code 0 is 130.9m2 and that is less than only the Geenaker on the X yacht.

The XC sailed with the right sails will be faster than the HR and the bigger difference will be in bad weather and strong winds where the much superior B/D ratio will be put to good use.

Both boats cost about the same, the XC has a stainless steel structure to distribute the forces of the keel and shrouds and both have an high quality interior. I like more the modern interior of the XC but that is really a question of personal taste.






But on this segment appeared recently other boat that probably I would have preferred to both the HR 412 and the XC42, even if I like a lot the XC 42. It is the Swedestar 415.

The Swedestar is not only cheaper (if we can talk about cheaper in what regards these boats ) as it is lighter, faster, less beamier and that will give it a more comfortable ride upwind with waves. The Swedestar has also a high quality interior and a nice one to my taste.

It has the same length as the HR 412 but the beam is only 3.75 versus 4.11m and most of all the Swedestar is 2900kg lighter, having a much bigger B/D ratio (0.43 to 0.36).

Even being almost 3T lighter the Swedestar carries more sail than the HR , both boats with jib, 93.0m2 to 90.0 and that would make it not only much faster than the HR in all points of sail and sea conditions as will make it a fast boat by any standards.

The only thing I don't like is the aesthetic treatment of the transom but I guess I could live with that. That looks to be a fantastic boat. I am very curious to hear what the boat testers say about this boat.

Mr X can you tell us what are they saying on that test on the movie, I mean the general idea?


----------



## PCP

*Zeeman 41*

For the ones that prefer heavy boats with a stronger modified fin keel and like classic looks I do not know anything better than the Zeeman 41. From the same designer of Puffin 27, the boat has gorgeous looks, fantastic interior, aluminium hull and lots of sail will make this boat a wonderful boat to own and a particularly good bluewater boat.

Take a look:






Zeeman Z41 from Grapefruit Moon on Vimeo.



















http://www.zeemanjachtbouw.nl/pdf/specs_Zeeman41.pdf

Zeeman Jachtbouw Enkhuizen | REFIT | Nieuwbouw |

...


----------



## Melrna

What a great video and boat to wake up to.. My poor heart is racing! And she comes in Red! Yummy!
Thanks Paulo


----------



## APP Mode

This Swedstar 415 has a turbo on it  ? It is amazing how fast she sails !


----------



## PCP

APP Mode said:


> This Swedstar 415 has a turbo on it  ? It is amazing how fast she sails !


Yes, that's a very interesting sailboat. It will be probably at the Dusseldorf boat show and that is one of the boats I want to visit

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*C-Fly*

Take a look:






No, it is not some amateur doing experiments. This is serious stuff:

*Creating C-FLY has required a diverse, highly skilled and dedicated team. The experience and knowledge needed is closely aligned to aerospace engineering and equally challenging.

The design team examined existing and potential concepts for high-speed sailing. Combining this analysis with a healthy respect for real ocean conditions, they evolved a synthesis of the best of current state-of-the-art multi-hull design with the benefits of a unique hydrofoil system.

One of the most challenging aspects of the design was to research and develop wave piercing hydrofoil technology that would meet the requirements of the canard layout. This part of the programme involved extensive tow tank research into novel designs for ventilated hydrofoils.

Computer based modelling tools were used to carry out a comprehensive investigation of fluid dynamics and structural performance, including developing bespoke VPP programs and six degree of freedom models to analyse the boat's behaviour.

Until now C-FLY and its unique hydrofoil technology have remained confidential, with the project privately funded by the team.

With the success of C-FLY Coastal and the concept proven, the team are exploring new avenues for the technology, including a range of concepts from dinghies through to offshore ocean sailing yachts and powerboats.

The team believe the time is right to scale up to C-FLY Ocean, the full-size ocean going version to rival the giant offshore multihulls and to challenge l'Hydroptère, the world's only offshore sailing hydrofoil.

The C-FLY team is now looking for a sponsor with a passion for sailing or record breaking, an interest in innovative technology and design, or someone who simply wants to be part of making C-FLY headline news worldwide.*

http://www.c-fly.co.uk/story_future.html

Well, that is something that deserves to be followed. The video is not very impressive but the concept seems interesting, who knows if they cannot develop it for commercial use.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

It is almost there, I cannot wait

I bet on this kid to be one of the main contenders, even to win the race. He is a kid among big men, but this kid is a great sailor.






Another contender, this one from Spain in an ecologic boat that uses only renewable energy.





Sanso en navigation sur ACCIONA 100% EcoPowered _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Continuing with the presentation of the racers, remembering that the race starts in some weeks and that amazingly (giving the economic bad moment) they have full house, with the max number of racers allowed: 20

This is the Swiss BERNARD STAMM with Cheminées Poujoulat, having a bad time giving an interview





Ça mouille sur Cheminées Poujoulat ! _por VendeeGlobeTV_

And this one is one of my favorite sailors, Marg Guillemot racing with Safran. This is the guy that on the last edition brought his boat ( racing) home without keel and finishing in 3th. He lost the keel offshore Brasil and made all the way to France without keel many times over 10k. when journalists asked him how hard it had been he smiled and said: well it was like sailing a big dinghy. I used to sail dinghies 





Des images du skipper Marc Guillemot sur Safran... _por VendeeGlobeTV_

and these are all the guys...and a girl, Sam, of course





Le teaser du Vendée Globe 2012-2013 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Zeeman 52*



Melrna said:


> What a great video and boat to wake up to.. My poor heart is racing! And she comes in Red! Yummy!
> Thanks Paulo


Your wellcome

Take a look at the 52 they are making designed by the same Na (Arjen Keer).



















Now take a look at the 46ft I have designed more than 10 years ago and that I intended to have it built for myself (also an aluminium boat). Look at both interiors.
































































There is a big coincidence in what regards design 

Well, I find Arjen's boat a very nice one




























Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*king 40 Cowes week 2012*

Beautiful movie taken some days ago, on Cowes week, from one of the fastest 40ft performance cruisers around and I do really mean fast. In real time only the Ker 39 and boats like that will be capable of sailing at the same level. To give you an idea the rating of the boat is substantially bigger than the one of a J133


----------



## PCP

*amazing sailing*

This is a 2010 movie but there are some images here that I don't remember having seen so It seems that I didn't post this one and there are really some impressive footage there


----------



## PCP

*Classic boats: Pasha*

Pasha looks old and beautiful but it is really a modern boat less than 15 years old. It is an aluminum boat designed by William C. Frank of Offshore Yacht Design to be its own boat.

*"The designer wanted a strong, fast and comfortable yacht which would benefit from the reduced maintenance associated with modern materials, but one which retained a handsome traditional look. "
*

Well, I guess he had seceded


----------



## PCP

*Babe 30*

In 1935 Olin Stephens (S&S) designed Babe a beautiful 31ft boat meant to be an Ocean racer for the Miami-Nassau and St. Petersburg-Havana races. The boat had the minimum required size for those races.



















More than 70 years later S&S picked up the old designed and utilizing today's technologies, modern materials, up-today computer aided design remake the old design, maintaining its old looks on the outside and adapting the hull shape. Now it remains beautiful as it was before, but also a much lighter and a fast boat by modern standards.














































This boat deserves to be a success. Or is not cheap but it will never get old, I mean if the 70 year old looks are beautiful today I am pretty sure they will remain beautiful at the turn of the this century.


----------



## PCP

*Cowes week 2012*

All that talk about the world capital of sailing, well, Cowes is one of them, a Capital now doubt. I was cruising during the Cowes week (August) and could not post about it. Well, its better late than never

Movies are better than words:


----------



## PCP

*Cowes week*

More two movies aboard smaller boats: an X35 and a J80. Well sailed boats










Those guys on the J80, it seems they are from Poland. Look at them in a nice movie in Warsaw, doing the local championship.






And since we are talking about the J80, some nice movies that give you the will to be there:


----------



## PCP

*Cowes Week: Classic boats*

More from Cowes, this time really beauty keens


----------



## Mr W

*Re: HR 412; XC 42; Swedestar 415*



PCP said:


> Mr X can you tell us what are they saying on that test on the movie, I mean the general idea?


Hi Paolo, I assume you mean me! Well, I could tell you what they say but I think your english is as good as mine, so maybe a bit overkill?!  His english is a bit poor so I´ll give you a few hints. They guy beeing interviewed is Håkan Södergren, the designer of the boat. If you don´t know about him you should look him up, he´s a real veteran. I´m friends with his son, so I meet Håkan every now and than, he is a nice bloke.

To me, his designs are quite traditional but still allways very good performers (for cruisers of course). His comments in the video is that he has kept many of the attributes from the Swedestar 370. A rather shallow draft keel is key when sailing in our area. He has moved the sail plan back, which also creates a large fore triangle, which makes for an easy to handle sail plan.

The boats are more expensive than for example Jeanneau etc because of highest quality swedish handcrafted interior.

From experience I can tell you that we outsail Swedestar 370 with my brothers Arcona 340. Maybe no suprise, but still worth noting.

My brother was acutally very close to buying the Södergren designed Tarac, but with his family in mind he went for the Arcona.

Cheers!

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*About yacht design*

Hi Paolo,

I read an article by the norwegian boat magazine Seilas a while back which you might find interesting. It´s in Norwegian, so you´ll have to find a way to translate it. I´m not really up for translating the whole article for you.... 

Oops, problem! I can´t attach a pdf! Paolo, if you´re interested in the article, PM me your e-mail adress and I´ll send it to you.

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: About yacht design*



Mr W said:


> Hi Paolo,
> 
> I read an article by the norwegian boat magazine Seilas a while back which you might find interesting. It´s in Norwegian, so you´ll have to find a way to translate it. I´m not really up for translating the whole article for you....
> 
> Oops, problem! I can´t attach a pdf! Paolo, if you´re interested in the article, PM me your e-mail adress and I´ll send it to you.
> 
> //Mr W


Can you believe that I started to listen to the guy and his accent Is so thick, so Swedish that my brain decided that he was speaking in Swedish and I just turned out the sound

Regarding the Arcona 34 to be faster than the Swedsetar 37 it is normal under certain circumstances, like light wind but I guess that the Swedsetar has a superior rating and with more wind or rough conditions will be probably faster.

Anyway that was not the point: Arcona are performance cruisers and the Swedsetar is more in line with Malo or Halberg-Rassy (the aft cockpit line), well, at half the way between those boats and Arcona even if in what regards performance is much closer to Arcona.

If we compare it with the Arcona 410 we will see that the Arcona is 400kg lighter (7.8 to 8.2T) but also that the Swedestar has more 900kg of ballast. Ok the draft of the Arcona is 2.25 and the Swedestar has only 2.07 and that will represent probably the equivalent of 200 kg of ballast. Even so and with that correction that will give a B/D ratio of 36% to the Arcona tha compares with the 42% of the Swedestar 415.

Of course the Arcona has more beam (3.9 to 3.8m) and that gives it a bit more form stability but I guess it will not be enough to compensate the extra B/D of the Swedestar and its smaller beam will make it a better upwind boat, specially with waves and rough weather.

In what regards sail, the Arcona 410 has 95m2 and the Swedestar 93m2.

I guess that the Arcona will be faster, but not for much since the Swedestar cab carry a genoa more time without reefing and I will bet that upwind with waves and over 12/13K the Swedestar will be faster.

Well, they are two fine boats but I don't know if I don't prefer the Swedestar. I will tell you after seeing the boat in Dusseldorf


----------



## tdw

Paolo .... has the Hanse 412 aft cockpit made it into this thread ? If not, let me know and I'll post it. For her size, she is for me a very nice design. I think perhaps more interesting than the Malo 40 or 43. 

Andrew


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 415*



tdw said:


> Paolo .... has the Hanse 412 aft cockpit made it into this thread ? If not, let me know and I'll post it. For her size, she is for me a very nice design. I think perhaps more interesting than the Malo 40 or 43.
> 
> Andrew


Hi, Andrew,

Have a look at page 308 posts 3072, 3073, 3074.

Please quote at will and tell us what you think about the boat and if you agree with the expressed opinions. Welcome to the discussion

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Americas's cup song*

Hei Andrews, do you know this one?


----------



## PCP

*two poles*

Very interesting movie by Yachtingworld showing how you can sail downwind with two head sails (one to each side) using *only one pole*:


----------



## PCP

*Giraglia 2012*

Another classic I miss during my summer cruising : Great classic that had provide us with great images.

You can choose between a TP 52, a Swan 45, a X-55, a GP42 and if you fell that those are boats only for rich guys, go with an "old" First 40.7: Padawan, they are having great fun, great sailing too. They are all flying low over the water


----------



## PCP

*Nordhavn 56*

Yachtingworld tested recently one of the ugliest boats around:






I confess that I don't understand this boat. Ok, nothing wrong with Trawlers, but to put sails in one, I mean not one that is old styled and whose lines come from the time were fishing boats had sails, but a modern looking one with sails?

If someone has over a million dollars to give for a trawler why the well he wants sails? That thing will not give any pleasure to sail and will go fast motoring. I confess I don't get it.

If someone has over a million to give for a motorsailer at least he can get a nice one and I don't know of a nicer one than this one, a Bob Perry design. I think the boat has not been made yet and that is just a shame. A beauty like that should come to existance


----------



## PromWTX

I personally like the Bavaria 40 series.


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 40*



PromWTX said:


> I personally like the Bavaria 40 series.


Well, like on the Hanse I have mixed feelings about the Bavaria 40. As you probably know I have owned a Bavaria 36ft (bought new in 2002) and globally I have only good things to say. Contrary to what most consider I think that it is a good endorsement the fact that Bavaria is probably the brand that sells more boats to charter companies.

Owners of big charter companies are very experienced in what regards boats and boats problems and durability and they know that the boats will experiment a huge amount of abuse. In fact in terms of use a 5 year old charter has the use of the average 20 year old boat. The fact they chose Bavaria means that they consider the boat more strong than the average mass market cruiser boat.

The mixed feelings: regarding 40fts, Bavaria, as Hanse is heavier than the French cruisers but also as Hanse the 40 has unusually big B/D (0.32). While the jeanneau has not a bad one D/B (0.30) but the Oceanis has only 0.27. That gives the Oceanis a low AVS (110º). That could not mean nothing if you sail with good weather but it is not good for an offshore boat.

Anyway to cut it short I think that Bavaria is on the right way in what regards the interior (that is better on the new vision series) but I just don't like the Farr design on the outside. The boat looks fat and old. I don't think that the design is better or more modern than the one from the previous model (till 2009). Take a look:

*The 2009 boat
*


















*The actual series*



















If I was interested in a new Bavaria I would wait one or two years till the new series come to the 40ft range. Not only the boats look much better has the interior is not only well designed but very practical.

*The 40ft interior*










*The Vision 42 interior. I think that the boats to come will reflect this style.*



















*The style of the future series: The first boat, the Cruiser 56*










But you never know, the new Vision series have a B/D a lot lower than the one on the previous series. If you want to buy an used 40ft Bavaria I would say that the better boat is the previous Vision 40 that is a very good cruising boat and that should be find at a nice price now that they have new models.

Maybe you can even find a new one on stock and in that one you should get a 25 to 30% rebate. Of course that does not mean nothing if you sell the boat in some years but if this is the boat you are going to keep, it will make a big difference. This is a fast boat with a B/D superior to the one you find on the new series of Vision, a stiff boat.

*The 40ft Vision*




























Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Giraglia and Midle of the sea race*

While you can follow in direct another big race here (Middle of the sea race):

http://www.rolexmiddlesearace.com/tracker/#pt

http://www.rolexmiddlesearace.com/entrants/

Some more interesting Giraglia videos and for the ones that like small performance cruisers, that a look at an relatively inexpensive one doing 22K I will let you discover the maker






and the overall winner (is also leading the other race):






and the race official report:


----------



## Mr W

*Dehler 38*

Well guys, Dehler launches a new 38!




























LOA 11,30 m
LWL 10,40 m
Beam 3,75 m

Draft 2,00 m standard - 2,30 m competition
Displacement 7 000 kg standard - 6 600kg competition
Ballast 2 250 kg standard - 2 000 kg competition
Mast length above WL 17,82 standard - 18,20 competition

Total sail area
79,3 m² standard
82,4m² competition

Main sail 43,7/46,0 m²
Furling Jib 35,6/36,4m² (105%)

Only a foot longer than Dufour 36 Performance but 600kg heavier, at least in cruising spec. Hmm...

I like the Dehler 38R that should have been released a couple of years back better :



















LOA 11,46 m
LWL 10,48 m
Beam 3,75 m

Draft 2,40
Displacement (light) 5 400 kg

Main sail 48,6 m²
Jib 36,0 m²
Code 0 95,0 m²
Spinnaker (mast head) 129 m²


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 38*

The boat is beautiful but the weight

A Salona 38 has about the same ballast but weights 500kg less on the basic version. The cruiser version from Salona is 100kg lighter than their racing one. The hulls don't seem to be much different, having the Dehler more beam (3.75 to 3.62m). Also regarding sail area, the cruising version of the Salona has more area than the racing version of the Dehler (88.4 to 82.4m2).

I don't know how much the Salona 38 will weight in the racing version (IBC) but I know that the difference in the 41ft is of about 650kg.

Maybe the Dehler race version will do well on compensated time

But for a cruiser that is not much important even if I hate to be over sailed by another boat

The interior seems to be a huge improvement over the Dehler 41.

That is a boat to follow. Thanks for having posted it.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 38*

Some more information. They say about the boat:

*"The new model is a combination of the traditional Dehler values, combined with contemporary features ... The Dehler 38 has an aggressive, timeless exterior and a contemporary designed interior.

The new Dehler 38 is a performance cruiser with a Possibility of upgrading to a more comfortable level or a more competition level.

The yacht is well balanced with emphasis on stability and lightweight, and in consonance with all the latest IRC and ORC rating systems that are representing the dominant rating systems worldwide.

Spacious open cockpit in standard version but possible to be closed with a optional large bathing platform. Dehler 38 has a multifunction bathroom in the 3 cabin layout that in the 2 cabin version is combined with a large luxurious bathroom with separate shower without compromising the space in the saloon."*


----------



## tdw

*Re: Hanse 415*



PCP said:


> Hi, Andrew,
> 
> Have a look at page 308 posts 3072, 3073, 3074.
> 
> Please quote at will and tell us what you think about the boat and if you agree with the expressed opinions. Welcome to the discussion
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Sorry paulo, I missed that roundup of those three boats. Probably agree with you re the Swedestar as the pick of that litter. Very nice and for me that keel makes a lot of sense for a cruising boat, though admittedly not a lot of difference to the HR or the X. From the pics looks to be high quality fitout. Having lived with curved cusions on settee with our Malo that is one interior feature that I have come to loath.

The XC was for me the highlight of the recent Sydney Boat Show though to be honest it didn't have much competition. Not quite up to Malo or HR in interior fitout but overall nice boat and as you say would almost certainly outperform the HR. Maybe a bit too much of a racer for me ? Not sure. Teak deck was not my idea of a quality deck but if I was buying new I wouldn't go teak deck, just cockpit.

I know it is conservative but ignoring the dollars I would still be happy with the HR, the interior works pretty well for me, overall best build quality if we exclude any Malos and small features for me make her a better all round long term cruiser.

I should go back and look at the similar sized current model Malos. I cannot remember why I dismissed them. Maybe because the comparitive model(s) are getting a bit old now.

btw .... I love those turning blocks on the coachroof of the Comet. How clever is that ?

cheers

Andrew B


----------



## PCP

*Re: Hanse 415*



tdw said:


> Sorry paulo, I missed that roundup of those three boats. Probably agree with you re the Swedestar as the pick of that litter. Very nice and for me that keel makes a lot of sense for a cruising boat, though admittedly not a lot of difference to the HR or the X. From the pics looks to be high quality fitout. Having lived with curved cusions on settee with our Malo that is one interior feature that I have come to loath.
> 
> The XC was for me the highlight of the recent Sydney Boat Show though to be honest it didn't have much competition. Not quite up to Malo or HR in interior fitout but overall nice boat and as you say would almost certainly outperform the HR. Maybe a bit too much of a racer for me ? Not sure. Teak deck was not my idea of a quality deck but if I was buying new I wouldn't go teak deck, just cockpit.
> 
> I know it is conservative but ignoring the dollars I would still be happy with the HR, the interior works pretty well for me, overall best build quality if we exclude any Malos and small features for me make her a better all round long term cruiser.
> 
> I should go back and look at the similar sized current model Malos. I cannot remember why I dismissed them. Maybe because the comparative model(s) are getting a bit old now.
> 
> btw .... I love those turning blocks on the coachroof of the Comet. How clever is that ?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Andrew B


Hi Andrew,

Now you get me confused. I was hopping for your opinion about the Hanse 415 and a comment on posts 3072, 3073, 3074, pag 308 that are about the Hanse, that I know, it is a big sales success in Australia. I still would like your opinion about the boat and a comment on what was said.

Your comments on the Halberg Rassy, Xc-Yacht, swedestar are more then welcomed but in what regards the Xc 42, its performances and sea motion I am afraid I do not agree with you. In fact I think that the boat is such a good looker that you associated it with a performance boat. It is not, it is a family offshore cruiser with the same sailing program of the HR.

To give you an idea of the difference of that boat to a performance cruiser from the XP line, the XP 44, a bigger boat weights 8650kg while the smaller XC 42 weights 11400kg.

The Xc42 is heavier than the HR412 but those extra 300kg are not due to an heavier hull but to a bigger B/D ratio. This will make the XC42 a better blue water boat (more stability and stifness) than the HR and has it is heavier, also more comfortable in a sea motion (even if the difference would be hardly noticeable) and in the end being better on both counts is also better on the third one, speed, but not for much and the difference will be found especially in bad weather upwind: more power

I hope to have convinced you that the XC is not a performance cruiser (much less a racer) and it is in fact a boat with the same program of the HR, because that is simply true

Regarding the interior I don't think it is a difference in quality but in style. The HR still has all those woods while the XC chooses more high quality synthetic materials, with wood being a part of them. The reason is weight, that on the XC is on the ballast and not on the hull. This is of course a question of taste and your's is as good as mine I find the more modern interior of the XC 42 more appealing than the more traditional interior of the HR.

The Swedestar is a completely different animal and I would say that it has the traditional quality interior of the HR but in what regards program and performance it will be at mid way between the X performance line and the X cruising line and I think that is what makes it a very interesting boat for the ones that want to sail faster than on a HR or XC but want to do it with more comfort than on a typical performance cruiser.

Best regards

Paulo

....


----------



## PCP

*Malo 40 versus HR 412 and XC 42*



tdw said:


> ...
> 
> I know it is conservative but ignoring the dollars I would still be happy with the HR, the interior works pretty well for me, overall best build quality if we exclude any Malos and small features for me make her a better all round long term cruiser.
> 
> I should go back and look at the similar sized current model Malos. I cannot remember why I dismissed them. Maybe because the comparitive model(s) are getting a bit old now.
> 
> ...
> 
> cheers
> 
> Andrew B


I guess these deserves a separated answer. I guess the Swedestar is a bit less expensive if compared with HR 412 and the XC 42. Those two have similar prices, the last time I checked up, about 450 000 euros for a decently equipped boat.

Regarding the Malo40 I don't think that it is outdated, specially the classic version (I found the standard one a bit heavy on the transom design in what regards aesthetics but even so I don't think the transom of the HR looks better).

In what regards hull design and design typology I would say that the Malo will stand between the Swedestar and the HR or XC (you did not expect that, at least in what regards the XC).

Comparing with the HR 412 the Malo is a lot less beamier (3.83 to 4.11m) it has a slightly better B/D (38% to 36%) for just less 7cms in draft, similar keels but most of all it weights less 1.5T for a not very different sail area (87 to 90m2).

This makes almost the Malo a performance boat compared with the HR 412

Beside the weight the biggest difference is in hull design. The HR follows the main tendency in what regards increased beam. That will give a more stable boat (at least in small sailing angles of heel) a boat that will sail with less heel, a better boat in downwind sailing (less roll), a worse boat and less comfortable in upwind sailing even if in what regards comfort the superior weight can contribute to compensate that.

Regarding the XC42, even taking into consideration that it is a bigger boat, it is comparable with the HR in beam and weight but the XC42 but has a much better B/D than the two other boats (43% to 38% and 36%). That (and beam) will make it by far the boat with a better overall stability and probably the best bluewater boat.

Now, to your surprise, probably, in most sailing situations, the Malo will be faster
























Regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Dehler 38*



PCP said:


> *"The yacht is well balanced with emphasis on stability and lightweight..."*


If the boat hadn´t been lightweight to Dehler standards, I wonder what the weight would´ve been then! 

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dehler 38*



Mr W said:


> If the boat hadn´t been lightweight to Dehler standards, I wonder what the weight would´ve been then!
> 
> //Mr W


To be completely honest I have to say that the guys from Dehler give more information about the boat than the guys from Salona.

Salona boats have a great deal of customization and you can have many options but basically they have 3 flexible different grades while Dehler has two rigid ones.

The first one, the cheapest boat on Salona, we can call the cruising version. Than they have a performance cruising version and a race version (IBC).

I believe the weight they give on their site is the one of the performance version that has 2.28m draft and is a vinilester/epoxy boat cored with airex.

The ballast they give on the site is the one with 1.98m. The boat with 2.28m has less ballast, if I remember well 2000Kg. The boat I almost bought was a performance version with a 2.25m draft but with 2250kg of ballast.

If I am right about that then the cruising version should weight more 400kg than the performance version and that will give a weight for that boat of about 6900kg and that is close to the weight of the cruising Dehler 38.

The Dehler in race version has 6600kg and that will correspond to the 6500kg of the Salona performance version. Only the IBC, the racing version of the Salona would be lighter.

I guess the difference is on the prices: the Salona performance cruiser version that corresponds to the Dehler racing version (built the same way) is less expensive than their basic version, that they call cruiser, that contrary to the racer version is balsa cored.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Middle the sea race*

After the line honors on Giraglia Esimit Europa has done the same on the Middle the sea race

Some images:











Only four boats have finished already the race. You can follow the others here:

Rolex Middle Sea Race

Fantastic race of Kuka Light, a small 42ft boat that is coming on the front pack, close to a very fast Coockson 50 and a Vismara 62 that has also made a great race (that is a performance cruiser among racing boats).






http://www.kuka-light.com/


----------



## PCP

*Swan 60*

Not to much wind on the Middle sea race. While we wait for some decent footage let's have a look at the relatively new Swan 60. Swan were known by its classical fast boats. Not anymore, I mean not in what regards fast. To be competitive they are not classical anymore.

Look at this Swan 60: It looks more a luxurious TP52 than an older Swan






Now have a look at the boat interior:






That's what I call speed with style


----------



## PCP

*Middle sea race*

And this are the boats that interest us most: Not racing boats neither big and ugely expensive performance cruisers, but performance cruisers between 30 and 45ft, affordable boats and many that you can find already on the used market:










On this group the one that is leading is a *J122* followed by a 40ft ILC racer ahead of an VOR60, a Swan 56, three class40 racers, 

Lisa a 44.7 First is not far away, ahead of another class40 and Elusive a First 45 is very near to that 40class racer.

Libertine a Comet 45 is also close, ahead of another J122.

Further back, in another group, another VOR60 followed by a Comet 51.

Than a Xp44 side by side with a X41 racer, a J111, and another 40class racer.

Just a bit back, another J122.

Then another group, leaded by three boats very close: a Marina carbon 36, a Comet 45 and a Grand Soleil 43. Not very far away, very close, an Elan 350 and a Salona 44.

and then a lot of more boats behind, some big but not fast, like a Carter55 or a Bavaria 50 vision.

There are here some surprising results only possible because this was a race with weak winds, like it is not unusual on the Med and that does not give a big advantage to the bigger boats.

To register the incredible good performance of the first J122 and globally of all J122, the mediocre performance of the two Vor 60 and of many class40 racers and the good performance of an Elan 350.

That indicates that on these conditions boats with the type of hull based on 40class racers are poor performers while more narrow traditional boats perform better. We can see that the 40class racers, much lighter and built for racing have here a performance similar to a well sailed 40ft performance cruiser. I guess that a boat like the cruising Pogo, more heavier and with a lot less sail would have done a lot worst, I mean in real time.

I hope that J122 win in real time. It seems to me they deserve it

....

...


----------



## PCP

*Middle the sea race*

While that incredibly fast j122 fights with an VOR60 (unimaginable but true Rolex Middle Sea Race ) some more movie, better ones:






These *MOVIES* are nicer and of better quality but you have to see them from the site:

Grand start for the Rolex Middle Sea Race | VSail.info

Rolex Middle Sea Race: Welcome

Giraglia Rolex Cup | Esimit Europa 2

And we can see that the winner is also a very narrow boat, much more than the VOR boats or RAN. I guess the Med likes less beamier boats

....


----------



## tdw

Paulo,
Sorry old friend, bit of confusion caused by me re those last posts of mine. Suffice it to say I didn't take in the posts re the Hanse and went straight for the HR. Remember that I am not so concerned with the performance as you are and look more for acceptable comfort levels both inside and out. For that I feel the HR makes most sense, even over the Malo for me. That said, I would also much prefer either the Swede or XC over the Hanse.

If you remember we looked quite seriously at the previous generation Hanse 400 before we bought the Malo and to be frank it was our overall disappointment with the Hanse that pushed us towards Malo. At the time I'd have gone preferably for a Dehler 45, even over the Malo but there were none available even vaguely in our price range. Hanse for me is just too Ikea down below. Really poor quality fitout in every respect though I admit they have a wonderful layout, shame they make it out of papier mache. if all I wanted was a weekend cruiser that would not be embarassed around the buoys then I guess the Hanse would do but that is not my preference. 

To clear something up re Malo .... I was referring to the Malo 43 not the 40. The 40 was (I think) the first of the new generation Malos, the successor to our own Malo 39. The Malo 43 is the last of the old school Malos, I guess a replacement must be due very soon. For me I think that a new generation Malo 43 would be a dream boat. everything our 39 has with a bit more performance and a bit more room down below. 

As to the transom stern v reverse sheer ..... I confess that with the older boats I like the transom but with the wider backside of the new models it looks clumsy. The transom stern does however offer a lot more in the way of storage capacity in the lazarette. 


Cheers

Andrew B


----------



## PCP

*Sail Rocket*

Vestas Sailrocket is closing on the Hydropter record






*VESTAS Sailrocket 2 posted her personal best time of 50.98 knots over a 500 meter course with a peak speed of 53 knots.

Whilst the team is still dialling in the boat, these times are unofficial (not ratified by the WSSRC who govern the sport). ..

The time puts VSR2 only 0.4 knots behind Hydroptere's best 500 meter time. This means Hydroptere is still the fastest sailing 'boat' in the world... but only just. The Outright record is still over 4.5 knots away. The team are aiming for over 60 knots so are still frustrated by these speeds in the low 50's.*

Well I like a lot more the Hydropter that contrary to this sailing machine is an offshore boat with capacity to sail with waves.

Some recent footage of the Hydropter some of it on the S. Francisco Bay:


----------



## opc11

Hi all, 

I continue to follow this fantastic thread in lurk mode. So much to be gained here. I hope I can contribute some day. Special thanks to Paulo and the other regulars.

Regarding interiors, excuse me if this is a stupid question, but the thought arises.....I assume much of even higher end boats' interior surfaces consist of laminated wood trim on less expensive backing board of some sorts (marine grade plywood, etc.). Of course there's still a need for solid wood in high traffic/impact areas.

If one is ok w/ laminated wood for much of the interior surfaces, why not choose something other than plywood as the backing surface? I mean, why not "laminate" (choose whatever process you wish to affix to surfaces) the same really nice wood trim to something that is lighter and more resistant to water damage vs wood. Why not affix it to fiberglass or some structured, lightweight, impervious to water damage type surface? Of course you'd still likely use solid wood in certain areas, but why not have the best of both worlds: beautiful wood fascia while minimizing weight and avoiding the issues associated w/ wood?

Regards,


----------



## PCP

opc11 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I continue to follow this fantastic thread in lurk mode. So much to be gained here. I hope I can contribute some day. Special thanks to Paulo and the other regulars.
> 
> Regarding interiors, excuse me if this is a stupid question, but the thought arises.....I assume much of even higher end boats' interior surfaces consist of laminated wood trim on less expensive backing board of some sorts (marine grade plywood, etc.). Of course there's still a need for solid wood in high traffic/impact areas.
> 
> If one is ok w/ laminated wood for much of the interior surfaces, why not choose something other than plywood as the backing surface? I mean, why not "laminate" (choose whatever process you wish to affix to surfaces) the same really nice wood trim to something that is lighter and more resistant to water damage vs wood. Why not affix it to fiberglass or some structured, lightweight, impervious to water damage type surface? Of course you'd still likely use solid wood in certain areas, but why not have the best of both worlds: beautiful wood fascia while minimizing weight and avoiding the issues associated w/ wood?
> 
> Regards,


Thanks, you are welcomed

The problem is that people just like the look of those wooden interiors that are reminiscent of old wooden boats. It happens the same with teak decks and even if many Americans and some Europeans will prefer the boats without that, even almost all Americans will prefer teak on the cockpit. Of course it has no advantage and increases weight and maintenance but boats are not only a rational thing.

Regarding what you say, that is widely used on offshore racing boats, in some performance cruisers and in many fast multihulls.

One of the brands that use it and sells a lot of boats is Pogo. Here the 10.50:










here the 12.50:






Pogo 12.50 , Chantier Naval Structures from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.

Other cruising boats like the RM that is made with Plywood and epoxy use the same material (plywood) on the interior. The RM is also a big sales success for this type of boat.

Have a look of the interior of the RM 1200



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## opc11

The interiors you posted wasnt the point i was trying to make. I like the interior wood finish much better than the interiors you posted. I was making the point that the more wood one uses the more the boat will weigh. So i was pondering why they dont use a laminate (real) wood finish but laminate it to a lighter material so that you maintain the wood look without the weight and maintenance hassel.

Regards,


----------



## PCP

*Xp 55*



opc11 said:


> The interiors you posted wasnt the point i was trying to make. I like the interior wood finish much better than the interiors you posted. I was making the point that the more wood one uses the more the boat will weigh. So i was pondering why they dont use a laminate (real) wood finish but laminate it to a lighter material so that you maintain the wood look without the weight and maintenance hassel.
> 
> Regards,


That is expensive and only makes sense in expensive fast boats. X yachts use it and I think not only on its performance line put also on the cruising boats. Off course, X yachts are very expensive boats.

I take the opportunity to post the first images of the new XP 55. That is a very fast performance cruising boat with capability to win regattas....and also to cruise in great comfort and in a beautiful interior.

Regarding that interior it is only possible in a very light and performant boat because all those materials, that look like real wood, are synthetic, strong, durable and very light. Off course, that has a price. I guess that make it like a HR, full of natural wood, would be less expensive























































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Marina 36*

Regarding the final results of the Middle sea race some comments about the performance of performance cruisers with less ore equal to 50ft (in real time):

As I have posted before, the more impressive results are from J122 (19º, 27º, 34º) . The fastest stayed at only a 13 hours and a bit from the fastest class 40 boat (16º), a Pogo40s2 (5d 0h 59m), that in a 5 days race is not much, considering that one is a racing boat and the other a performance cruising, but most of all he arrived 7 hours before the second 40class racer (23º) boat and left behind 2 other 40class racers (24º, 26º).

And that was not the only one, the second J 122 (27º) arrived only 6m after the last class 40 racer (26º) and the third one come also among the fastest 45fts, between a Comet 51 and a Xp44.

Curiously a J111, a racing boat has done not so good (40º) but I guess that has to do with the crew and not the sailing boat.

Among the other performance production boats that have done great and for this order, a Mylius 14e55 (17º) a Xp 44 (18º) a First 44.7 (32º), a First 45 (35º), a Comet 45.(37º) On the smaller boats two deserve mention, a racing Elan 350 (48º) and a boat that I did not know, a Marina 36 Carbon (44º), a boat made in Croatia (like the Salona) and that seems to be a very fast boat. Take a look:














































The boat has 3.45m of beam, 2.45m of draft, 800Kg of ballast and weights 2450kg.

Even the normal cruising version weights less than 3000kg. Well, no wonder it is fast

I don't look at this results because I am interested in doing racing myself but just to see how the different boats and hull designs perform. I am interested in that

Comparing the result of these boats with a fast old one, a very well sailed Carter 55, the Elan 350 was faster by almost 2 hours and the best J122 by 14 hours.










And I say very well sailed because in compensated time the Carter 55 stayed one place ahead of the Elan 350.

...


----------



## APP Mode

Did anyone of read the article on YACHTING MOUNTHLY November 2012, of different types of cockpits? What each one is best suited for?
Do you agree with what is written there?


----------



## PCP

APP Mode said:


> Did anyone of read the article on YACHTING MOUNTHLY November 2012, of different types of cockpits? What each one is best suited for?
> Do you agree with what is written there?


Sorry mate. After signing that magazine for a long time (since the 80's) I given up about a year back. In my opinion they turned too much to the conservative side of boating. I guess they were going after the readers and sailors that in UK are pretty conservative and has they had on the same group a magazine with more modern views (Yachting world) it would not make sense targeting the same market. Now they seem to have separated the waters. I signed Yacht and Yachting instead. It seems to me that one is improving a lot.

For many months Yachting monthly did not test a single new boat. It seems that they went to far and that is changing but even on the last edition: A test on the Vancouver 27? A boat that Northshore stopped to build years ago because didn't sold a single boat for years? A boat designed 30 or 40 years ago?

Regarding cockpits I don't know what they say about it but cockpits are a function of the hull shape or the type of the boat and the interior options. Center cockpit boats don't have that cockpit because it is best (it is not) but because that's one of the ways to manage to put inside a big aft cabin.

Old boats had tiny cockpits because they used much narrow hulls and that's the space they got for it, boats based on solo racers have huge cockpits because the boats have an huge beam and all the beam brought aft.

Its the type of boat that is important, the cockpit comes with the territory and that is not an independent choice.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Self sufficient energy*

For a complete circumnavigation non stop and all of it from renewable sources:





Energy on board ACCIONA 100% EcoPowered _por VendeeGlobeTV_

I hope that on the next Vendee globe they will make this a mandatory rule. There are talks about that and the sailors are favorable to the idea.

What can be learned and the improvements will be huge and the use on cruising boats will be just a step away

By the way, the batteries are the same I have in my boat, I don't mean the brand, they are the same model and capacity...well I have two of those for the house service and a smaller one for the engine. I guess they have chosen well

...


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

About 10 days to go. Take a look at the Skippers presentation made by Destop news and have as bonus some fantastic images from the "Coastal classic" race in NZ:


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> Sorry old friend, bit of confusion caused by me re those last posts of mine. Suffice it to say I didn't take in the posts re the Hanse and went straight for the HR. Remember that I am not so concerned with the performance as you are and look more for acceptable comfort levels both inside and out. For that I feel the HR makes most sense, even over the Malo for me. That said, I would also much prefer either the Swede or XC over the Hanse.


Andrews,
Who would not prefer the XC42 over the Hanse? Pity it costs almost three times more and that makes all the difference.

Regarding that story anout the HR making more sense than the Malo in what regards comfort I don't agree with you and I think it is a lot of ********

Some years ago Voile and Voiliers tested at the same time the XC 42 against the Dufour 425, both boats at the same time in the water. Because the Dufour is a much lighter boat they tried to find a difference in sea motion and comfort between the two boats namely in what regards wave passage. Well they could not find any. That is true that the conditions were pretty much normal, I mean the weather was good and they believe and (I agree) that in rough conditions that should make some difference but.....we all sail pretty much on the test sail conditions and avoid bad weather.

So in what regards to make sense having a more heavier and slow boat on account of comfort, if we are nor talking about extreme boats...well





Teaser du match XC 42 / Dufour 425 _por AgatheArmand_



tdw said:


> If you remember we looked quite seriously at the previous generation Hanse 400 before we bought the Malo and to be frank it was our overall disappointment with the Hanse that pushed us towards Malo. At the time I'd have gone preferably for a Dehler 45, even over the Malo but there were none available even vaguely in our price range. Hanse for me is just too Ikea down below. Really poor quality fitout in every respect though I admit they have a wonderful layout, shame they make it out of papier mache. if all I wanted was a weekend cruiser that would not be embarassed around the buoys then I guess the Hanse would do but that is not my preference.
> 
> Andrew B


I agree about the interior and it is just a shame that they had finished with the epoxy option and that the boat has not a traveler.
The epoxy option made a lot of sense and at 8000 euros it was not expensive for what offered ( a lighter, stronger and waterproof boat). 
The Hanse 415 has a lot to offer: the best stability in the class an a boat that is faster than the Oceanis and almost as fast as the Jeanneau.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Coastal Classic race*

If you like sail you have to love NZ sailors. No wonder there are so many in international top teams if they race like this at local races


























Jesus, this is what I call a wet boat


----------



## MrPelicano

Amazing footage that ranks up there with some of the Volvo video. But I have to say that I'm a bit surprised by the general absence of PFDs, harnesses and tethers. I realize it's a "coastal" race, but in those conditions it's easy to get swept over the side, and at those speeds it would take quite some time to turn around and recover a MOB. Just saying.


----------



## PCP

I cannot resist to post photos two boats that caught my attention during my summer cruise. What do you think about them?


----------



## PCP

*Fox 10.20*

We have been following the voyage of Adrien and Capucine on a small light and fast modern boat, a Fox 10.20.

Contrary to many people that have very little experience before normally bought an heavy boat to circumnavigate, these two were very experienced sailors and new exactly what type of boat they wanted. The hull was made professionally and they finished and mount all the rest.

They have passed New Zeeland and are now on the Indian Ocean:


----------



## PCP

*Speed Dream*

For years I have been seeing designs from Vlad Murnikov about his vision of the fastest monohull, a boat that could be as faster as a multihull, a huge boat (100ft) with the looks of a space ship. Well the designs were nice but the guy is not a leading NA and I guess it was just some dreamer with interesting ideas:


























]









































































Then, some time a go I heard that Roger Martin (a leading American NA) was involved in hull and deck shaping, general layout and detail design, that Hugh Welbourn (the one from DSS technologie) was part of the team and that Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) and sails was been developed by Tyler Doyle from Doyle Sails while SP-High Modulus was taking care of the structural engeniere. I thought to myself, jesus this is for real now.

When I heard that Lyman Morse was making a small prototype with 27ft I got really excited about it. After all they are promising the fastest monohull ever built, a boat with:

* Delta-shaped hull, almost triangular in plan view, with a very narrow, wave-piercing bow to reduce resistance and improve seaworthiness.

Maximum stability and sail carrying capacity due to the innovative Ultimate Canting Keel with a bulb that comes out of water to provide the highest possible Righting Moment while completely eliminating drag.

Telescoping keel that retracts to reduce draft while in harbor and extends while sailing to maximize Righting Moment.

Stabilizing foils to further improve stability and reduce drag by partially offsetting boat weight. Similar to the DSS foils pioneered by Hugh Welbourn, SpeedDream wings are used in combination with canting keel and, in addition to lift, provide lateral resistance.

The resulting stability is far superior to all current keel boats while requiring only fraction of the ballast, thereby significantly reducing the total boat displacement.

The innovative and practical deck layout and superstructure styling that keeps crew safe and deck free of excess water even at high speed.*

Well, the prototype is on the water. The images are not spectacular and I start to have some doubts. I truly hope they will be soon posting more spectacular movies and that this one is just not showing the full boat potential.

To follow closely


----------



## PCP

*America's cup*

Another AC72 in the water: The Italian one, Luna Rossa: They call it already the Chrome bullet

Hurricane Sandy forces HMS Bounty evacuation - Nova Scotia - CBC News


----------



## PCP

*Circumnavigation without stop on an A35*

Alain Delors, if he kept its timetable, sailed away for a circumnavigation. One more you say. Not this one. This one is a sportive one. Non Stop, on a small fast boat (A35), kind of a personal low budget Vendee Globe, with a low budget cost (140 000 euros).

Is this guy crazy? Well, he is a very good sailor, the A35 is a very seaworthy boat. He is not one of those that sail away without knowing almost anything about sailing, but he is 63 years old and want to make a record time so he plans to go higher than 50º. Scary, at least for me

I wish him god luck, he is going to need it

You can follow the voyage here:

Le Tour du Monde d'Alain Delord | Carnet de voyage d'Alain Delord lors de son tour du monde en solitaire sans assistance


----------



## PCP

*Haber 34*

One of the boats that is going to be present at Dusseldorf is the Haber 34. It is not my kind of sailboat but it makes sense for those that want a small Motor-sailor that maximizes interior space and living quality. The boat is made in Poland and has been raising interest in Germany. they have a version that can lower easily the mast.


----------



## PCP

*Sven Yrvind*

This guy is incorrigible

After having crossed the Atlantic in this:






He is going to circumnavigate non stop on a 10ft boatand probably he is going to manage it

His general theory:

* "Most people misunderstand life. Let me explain.

Comfort does not make you happy, on the contrary it is dangerous to your health. It makes you lazy, fat and bored. It is only by using energy that you can create energy and it is the surplus of energy that makes you happy and healthy. Happiness cannot be bought for money...

n a thousand ways our civilization over stimulates us. Not just by nicotine, by cars or by lending us money. Most people nowadays are slaves to many masters.

As with all addictions we need more drugs, more borrowed money, bigger cars and bigger boats. We get deeper and deeper into trouble and misery.

With my voyage I hope to show mankind that, luckily there is an opposite way, a more natural, sane and ecological way to be happy. Slowly as I have gained insight I have made myself less and less dependent on stimulants, I have become less and less a slave. I have never used coffee, beer, vine, or tobacco, not even once. Twenty years ago I stopped drinking tee. I have no TV. Ten years ago I stopped listening to the radio. It took about a year for me to get detoxed. Now I need no radio. I hear my inner voice loud and clear. I do my own thinking...

In my planned trip I will be at sea for more than a year. There I will be protected from over stimulation. Hopefully that way I will gain much of my senses potential power and increase the clarity of my mind. A voyage like my planned one will give plentiful stimulation. I aim to come back a younger man to start building a nice small cruising boat; one not restricted by a ridicules ten feet rule".*

Well, Sven is peculiar but is not mad at least in what regards sailing. Its accomplishments speak for themselves:

"Yrvind has made several ocean crossings in his tiny boats. In 1980, Yrvind rounded Cape Horn in 'Bris II', a 20'/5.90m boat of his own design, alone and in the middle of winter, a record for smallest boat to round the Cape. This achievement won Yrvind the 1980 Royal Cruising Club medal for seamanship. In the Roaring Forties he allegedly collided with a whale."






The last crossing was last year, from Europe to the US (Florida).

About sailboats he says:

*"A small boat well made is safer than a big one. It is less complicated and smaller forces are acting on it. On a small boat you have more control."*

And he really means small Take a look at the model for the circumnavigation:






A true nutshell You know that in Portuguese, that is a language with a lot of expressions taken from the sea and boats mean figuratively the weakest of all boats: "A casca de noz".

Obviously he don't think that way

The project:






The boat:


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 33.*

Well, in what regards new, the hull, it is the same that was designed by Farr some years ago, but all the rest is different.

It seems that it is the first one on the cruiser line that will share a new look, in the outside and inside... and it was needed. The actual line is, with the exception to the new Visions, ugly and with strong but not very well designed interiors. I mean they are practical but are ages away from the design quality on Italian and French boats.

I like the new design and interiors. Pity that this boat will not offer a traveler. Maybe a good dealer with good contacts on the factory can command one with reinforcements on the settee bench near the wheel to install one. Of course that will imply to ditch that table and have a removable one.
















For the ones that are interested on this size an interesting comparative test between the new Hanse 345 and Bavaria 33 can be found on the last edition of yacht magazine, both boats at the water at the same time?:


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> Amazing footage that ranks up there with some of the Volvo video. But I have to say that I'm a bit surprised by the general absence of PFDs, harnesses and tethers. I realize it's a "coastal" race, but in those conditions it's easy to get swept over the side, and at those speeds it would take quite some time to turn around and recover a MOB. Just saying.


Hi,..

the conditions are not that bad. For that wind there is not a lot of sea. But you are right, the speeds are amazing and it would take a lot of time to recover a guy overboard. Maybe a cultural thing? I guess in Europe people are more concerned about safety. All those rules and regulations for more inconvenient they are have the advantage to create a mentality where safety is a real concern.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 325/345*

Hanse 325:






Well, I don't understand why they have a relatively new 325 and now they make a 345. Less than a ft difference seems not to make sense in what regards a line but in fact the boats are very different. I don't think the 325 is a match for the Bavaria, that looks better and nicer but the 345 is another story and that's probably why Yacht magazine chose to make a comparative between the Bavaria 33 and the 345 and not the 325 that is closer in size and probably in price.

As I said the 345 is a very different boat and I like it. It seems to me the better design on the new line of Hanse: Not too beamy with 3.50 and with a high B/D for this class of boats (33%) the boat looks bigger than a 34ft and the interior looks better designed than on other Hanse.

I bet this boat is going to be a best seller notm only among the Hanse boats, but globally. A pity the lack of a traveller but maybe a big dealer can convince the guys from Hanse to put on the top of the cabin the necessary reinforcements to mount one.


----------



## Mr W

Hi there Paolo!

I haven´t checked in for a couple of days, you guys have really been posting! 

As you know I have a weakness for lead free sailing... Say hello two some lucky bastards :





Cheers!

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

Mr W said:


> Hi there Paolo!
> 
> I haven´t checked in for a couple of days, you guys have really been posting!
> 
> As you know I have a weakness for lead free sailing... Say hello two some lucky bastards :
> <....
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> //Mr W


Paulo, not Paolo

Well, probably you did not see these guys on a Jeanneau 3200 going fast. Ok, it is a lead one but also one that costs 1/3 of the Dragonfly. They say the max speed was 2K superior of the max one on that Trimaran and they don't say it is a record so.... The guys look also a lot less nervous






Since we are talking about the Jeanneau 3200, look at this guy racing on a Dufour 45e that cannot believe he cannot go faster than a small 32ft performance cruiser.

I cannot wait to see if the new Jeanneau Sunfast 36 will be faster






Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

*Re: Hanse 325/345*



PCP said:


> Hanse 325:
> 
> Well, I don't understand why they have a relatively new 325 and now they make a 345. Less than a ft difference seems not to make sense in what regards a line but in fact the boats are very different. I don't think the 325 is a match for the Bavaria, that looks better and nicer but the 345 is another story and that's probably why Yacht magazine chose to make a comparative between the Bavaria 33 and the 345 and not the 325 that is closer in size and probably in price.
> 
> As I said the 345 is a very different boat and I like it. It seems to me the better design on the new line of Hanse: Not too beamy with 3.50 and with a high B/D for this class of boats (33%) the boat looks bigger than a 34ft and the interior looks better designed than on other Hanse.
> 
> I bet this boat is going to be a best seller notm only among the Hanse boats, but globally. A pity the lack of a traveller but maybe a big dealer can convince the guys from Hanse to put on the top of the cabin the necessary reinforcements to mount one.


Hi Paulo

There is a rumour that the new H345 will replace the 325 and the 355 which would then make sense - the range would then be 345, 385, 415, 445, 495, 545, 575 and 630e

The Hanse owners website now has a separate section for the H345 - New Hanse 345 - myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum - Page 1

I have reviewed the H345 in this forum.

I think Hanse introduced the H345 in response to the Dufour 335. Both boats offer a lot of boat for their size and include some really interesting innovations. One point to note is the mainsheet system with Hanse opting for the coachroof block system and Dufour opting for a pad eye in the cockpit system that is fitted to the cockpit table.

Voile et Voilier in the November edition commented that the H345 offered pleasure with complete security and found the boat to be very seaworthy. At Euro 100,344 the new H345 will be hard to beat if you are looking for a cruiser of this size. Just my opinion as a Hanse owner without any other affiliations


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 335, Hanse 345 and Bavaria 33*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> There is a rumour that the new H345 will replace the 325 and the 355 which would then make sense - the range would then be 345, 385, 415, 445, 495, 545, 575 and 630e
> 
> The Hanse owners website now has a separate section for the H345 - New Hanse 345 - myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum - Page 1
> 
> I have reviewed the H345 in this forum.
> 
> I think Hanse introduced the H345 in response to the Dufour 335. Both boats offer a lot of boat for their size and include some really interesting innovations. One point to note is the mainsheet system with Hanse opting for the coachroof block system and Dufour opting for a pad eye in the cockpit system that is fitted to the cockpit table.
> 
> Voile et Voilier in the November edition commented that the H345 offered pleasure with complete security and found the boat to be very seaworthy. At Euro 100,344 the new H345 will be hard to beat if you are looking for a cruiser of this size. Just my opinion as a Hanse owner without any other affiliations


Hi David,

Difficult to comment on that because I agree with everything you say (and I am not a Hanse owner). I would like to just point out that the system Dufour and Bavaria had opted in what regards control of the boom and mainsail through the main-sheet has the advantage of a better position. I mean it is on the end of the boom and that contributes for a better boom control. Of course, Hanse has that system that pull the boom from two different sides and even if that is not as good as a traveler, it will also give some additional control.

The Dufour has the same system as the Bavaria 33 but has two additional lateral pad eyes om the side that permits a very good boom position in what regards downwind sailing that is one the limitations of the Bavaria system and in a lesser degree from the Hanse too.

In what regards having the commands at hand both Dufour and Hanse offer winches at reach of the wheels-man while the Bavaria has them more far away. Even if the Bavaria is a narrower boat and has no need of a two wheel system the fact is that on the other two (that have twin wheels) it is a lot easier to go forward.

The Dufour 335 has also a very nice interior and it is a very nice looking boat.

To be fair, some movies with the Dufour:
















The truth is that most buy the boats by its looks by the interior and by the price. In what regards price the Bavaria 33 is a clear winner, costing almost 10 000 euros less than their rivals (71 667) while the Hanse 345 and the Dufour 335 are very close (83 900 and 83 283). Prices are in Euros and without tax and off course this is not the real price of the boats: This are standard boats and then you have to put all the extras, so to be sure about the boat prices you would have to ask for an offer with a decently equipped boat.

Regarding what people do not normally see, in fact these boats are very different: The Bavaria is less beamy (3.42 to H-3.50 and D-3.49) is lighter (5200kg to H-6200 and D-5450) but most of all has less stability, having a smaller beam and a smaller B/D ratio : (25% to H-33% and D-28%). In fact Dufour is well inside the average of B/D for these type of boats it is Hanse that is offering a boat with an unusual stiffness in this market segment. That stiffness and B/D is more typical of the more expensive performance cruisers.

In what regards the boats in standard version the Hanse is the one with a smaller Sail Area/Displacement and will be the slower in light winds: B-17.3, D-17.7 and H-16.6, but the Hanse due to its superior stiffness will be able to carry full sail more time and will be faster and safer in higher winds and bad weather.

Of course, to have the Hanse performing better in light winds you have just to have it with a bigger genoa but then you will pay more and will lose the self-tacking jib that is one of the brand trade marks. Both the Bavaria and the Dufour come standard with a genoa, not a jib.

If I had to choose I would pick up the Hanse and I would want one with a 135% genoa and a traveler over the cockpit. Now that would make it considerably more expensive than the Dufour

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> Since we are talking about the Jeanneau 3200, look at this guy racing on a Dufour 45e that cannot believe he cannot go faster than a small 32ft performance cruiser.
> 
> I cannot wait to see if the new Jeanneau Sunfast 36 will be faster
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Amazing vid, Paulo!

I have been a read-only for month, but now I REALLY need to know more abour the SF36. Is it announced yet, are there rumours? I am interested in the Salona 35s, so maybe I should wait for the SF...


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau SF 3200 / Salona 35*



robelz said:


> Amazing vid, Paulo!
> 
> I have been a read-only for month, but now I REALLY need to know more abour the SF36. Is it announced yet, are there rumours? I am interested in the Salona 35s, so maybe I should wait for the SF...


Hi, and welcome

Yes it is known that the boat is going to be made. I would hope than on the Paris boat show we should know more even if it is improbable the boat will be presented there.

But I think you are mistaken. That boat is not going to be (or expected to be) in the same class as the Salona 35. The Salona 35 is a performance cruiser that is on the same class of the Dufour 36 performance, the Dehler 35, Comet 35, First 35, Elan 350 and many others.

They are slightly more expensive boats than what we call mass production cruisers have good interiors for cruising are more stiff and fast than those cruisers, have more sail area and have all the rigging and equipment that allows a better control of the sail shape. They are boats pointed to the cruiser that have fun sailing and that occasionally does club racing. The guys that have old boats or even more fat cruisers like to call then racing boats but they are really not.

Boats like the SF 3200 are much more Spartan in what regards interior, are lighter and more expensive and are pointed to guys that like racing and do occasional cruising. Of course one can really enjoy just cruising in a very fast boat and don't use it for racing, but then it has to do that in a more Spartan way, and I mean not only the interior, but tankage as well. These boats are at half way between a pure racing boat, like the Farr 400 and a cruising boat.

The SF 3200 is on the same class of boats (and talking about 35ft) like the J111, the JPK 1010 and the Archambault 35. For them all the Archambault is the one that has a better cruising interior&#8230;.but as I have said, it is not only a lot smaller than the Salona, as it is more Spartan with a lot less tankage and much more expensive. Of course, you can also order a Salona 35 in IBC specification, that will be a lot more expensive and slightly faster than a Salona 35 with a performance pack but I think that will only make sense if you will do a lot of serious IRC racing.

Just to see what we are talking about, a movie with the SF 3200, with the Salona 35 and with the Comet 35. Look at the differences in the interior.


----------



## Mr W

*Elan 400*

Here´s the latest addition from Elan, the 400!





































And specs:

Overall Length 11.95
Length WL 11.26
Beam 3.87
Draft 2.40
Engine 40 hp
Water Capacity 310 liters
Fuel Capacity 170 liters

Mainsail 54.56
Genoa 37.6
Gennaker 135

Weight???

"Expected to be seriously fast and responsive, the Elan 400 will feature a completely rethinked and restyled interior, among the tried and tested VOR inspired wide transom, chined hull and twin rudders."

"In principle, it is an overgrown 350, but geared a little more towards IRC so that it does not fall outside of the measurement systems"

"It has been taken quite a lot more stability into the design with more weight in the keel and a narrower boat, proportionately, than the Elan 350"

What´s your opinion?

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

PCP said:


> Paulo, not Paolo


Sorry Paulo, it won´t happen again... :hammer

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Elan 400*



Mr W said:


> Sorry Paulo, it won´t happen again... :hammer
> 
> //Mr W


Well, I am started to be used. Half the guys write it that way. Welcome to the educated ones. Paolo is Italian, Paul is English, Pablo is Spanish, Pavle is Croat, Paavali is Finnish, Paulus is Latin, Paulius is Lithuanian and Paulo is Portuguese and I am Portuguese



Mr W said:


> Here´s the latest addition from Elan, the 400!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And specs:
> 
> Overall Length 11.95
> Length WL 11.26
> Beam 3.87
> Draft 2.40
> Engine 40 hp
> Water Capacity 310 liters
> Fuel Capacity 170 liters
> 
> Mainsail 54.56
> Genoa 37.6
> Gennaker 135
> 
> Weight???
> 
> ...
> What´s your opinion?
> 
> //Mr W


It is has not too much beam and all pulled aft, very little rocker and without the ballast it is hard to say more. The Elan 350 relied a lot on form stability and the B/D ratio is only 26%. That is low on a performance cruiser and that's one of the few things I don't like on that boat. Maybe this one is different?

Regarding weight I would say this is going to be a light boat with around 6.5T otherwise that sail area will not be able to make it a fast boat.

The boat really looks good but that interior seems to be quite badly designed. The boat has a tiny galley and the head design seems odd. It would be preferable to have only an aft cabin with a good storage space and a decent galley.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Hey Paulo,

of course I know that there is a big difference between the Salona and maybe a SunFast. What I do not know up to now is how much comfort I am going to need. I guess the Salona is too much but the SunFast might be too less. 

There are some boats on my wishlist that I want to have a detailed view on.

From racer to cruiser (as I think):

Jeanneau SunFast 36
Archambault A35
Summit 35 (wheeled version)
MacConaghy MC R35
Beneteau First 35
J/108
Salona 35s (Performance or IBC)


----------



## PCP

*Elan 400*

Some more images:





































And still nothing on the Elan website

They had removed the "old" Elan 410 and have nothing about this boat.

Regarding this boat why do i think it is going to be a much lighter boat?

If the information posted by K is correct in what regards sail area, this boat will have 92.12m2 of sail. The 410 has 105.1m2 for 8300kg. The 410 is a great fast cruising boat but it proved to be too slow on the regatta course.

So they need a faster boat and they will have one with less 13m2 of sail? That can only mean a much lighter boat.

If we compare both boats:



















We will see that the last one has less wet area, less rocker and that particularly on the aft part of the hull the boat has a soft line from the keel till the transom. That is a boat designed to plane downwind and for that it has to be light

We can see also that they have a more efficient keel and two rudders instead of one. All good news in what regards speed and control. Not so much in what regards sea motion and comfort, but we cannot have it all can we?


----------



## PCP

*Nautical Market*

Some interesting facts and comments:

Europe:

Today the number of produced boats is less than half of what it was is 2007.

There is a 40% increase in the boats over 40ft and a 60% decrease on boats with less than 40ft. That make the total decrease in market value effectively a lot less than 50% comparing with 2007.

The average age of the buyer of a new boat is 60 years old

Somme comments:

It seems to me that the crisis is here to stay at that many of the boats are bought by retired guys, with age to enjoy the boats, by guys that have been saving all along their live or enjoy a comfortable financial position at the end of its working life.

Young people are not buying and I guess the reasons are clear:

One factor is that what was initially convenient for big boat builders seems to be turning against them: Most of them change of model each 3 or 4 years and that leads to a devaluation of almost new boats on the market making in fact a good business to buy a 5 year old boat at 50% of a new boat.

Another factor is the cost of owning a boat in a nice place. They are high and have been increasing. When I sold my 6 year's old mass market 36ft I made some calculations and found out that it had cost me over 15 000 euros a year and that is in Portugal. On most Europe you will pay a lot more, and even more if it is a bigger boat.

This kind of money will allow you to charter a new boat for 7 weeks on a year (on the nicest spots) and that is more than what most people enjoy in a year, so it is only natural that young guys that have money for new boats opt for charter and leave all the hassle and money that cost to maintain a boat behind.

Conclusion:

I don't see any indication that the costs associated with having a boat are decreasing, nor the crisis, quite the contrary, so I would guess this is a tendency that is going to be maintained:

A bigger target market for old guys that want boats bigger than 40ft (many retired), a target Charter Market for 40ft boats or bigger, a small market for guys rich enough to race/cruiser on new top of the cream boats, and a tiny market for true racing boats. The market for cruisers smaller than 38ft will continue to decrease, while inexpensive day boats (and even expensive ones) will be on the raise.

Looking at the positive side, the interest on sail and sailboats and the boats on the water seems not having decreased I would say that has even increased:

The Boat show tickets had not decreased in number and it seems to me that on charting grounds the number of sailing boats is bigger each year.

Care to comment?

...


----------



## PCP

*MacConaghy MCR35*



robelz said:


> Hey Paulo,
> 
> of course I know that there is a big difference between the Salona and maybe a SunFast. What I do not know up to now is how much comfort I am going to need. I guess the Salona is too much but the SunFast might be too less.
> 
> There are some boats on my wishlist that I want to have a detailed view on.
> 
> From racer to cruiser (as I think):
> 
> Jeanneau SunFast 36
> Archambault A35
> Summit 35 (wheeled version)
> MacConaghy MC R35
> Beneteau First 35
> J/108
> Salona 35s (Performance or IBC)


Jesus, every guy that likes to go fast would dream to have a MacConaghy MCR35 bur unless you have a lot of money to give for a small boat it is just a dream. The boat costs USD 280 000 without tax and I am not sure that is not the price in Australia, I mean you would have to add shipping costs. This is a boat on the A35 class but faster and more expensive. A boat that weights only 4025Kg and I bet, at least 40% is ballast.




























McConaghy Boats - MC-R 35

We never talked about the Summit 35, probably because the boat has some years but we talked about its big brother the King 40, also called Summit 40.

The Summit 35 it is also on the same class of the A35, a bit heavier but with a bigger B/D ratio and as fast if not more. It is also a lot more expensive.






Compared with all those the Jeanneau 3200 is inexpensive

I don't understand why you put the J108 on that list. It is a slow boat much slower than any of the others. If you want to put a J there put the J111.

I guess you have to define a budget, I mean what money do you have for a boat? and then what use are you going to give to your boat?

Remember that one thing is a boat that needs a full crew to exploit its potential, other boats that are easy to sail solo and that for the price of a high-tech boat used mostly for racing you can have a bigger performance cruiser that can go as fast with a solo sailor, with more comfort and a better sea motion and a lot more of interior space.

Of course if it is mostly for racing with a crew that is a different story.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> I cannot resist to post photos two boats that caught my attention during my summer cruise. What do you think about them?


Now they both look way to big for anything I'd want or need and they are by no means classically beautiful but I like the look of both of them. Certainly they both look to be of great character, not to mention individual.

Presumably very modern below the waterline, though hopefully not equipped with one of those awful torpedo keels.


----------



## daviid

*Re: Nautical Market*



PCP said:


> Some interesting facts and comments:
> 
> Europe:
> 
> Today the number of produced boats is less than half of what it was is 2007.
> 
> There is a 40% increase in the boats over 40ft and a 60% decrease on boats with less than 40ft. That make the total decrease in market value effectively a lot less than 50% comparing with 2007.
> 
> The average age of the buyer of a new boat is 60 years old
> 
> Somme comments:
> 
> It seems to me that the crisis is here to stay at that many of the boats are bought by retired guys, with age to enjoy the boats, by guys that have been saving all along their live or enjoy a comfortable financial position at the end of its working life.
> 
> Young people are not buying and I guess the reasons are clear:
> 
> One factor is that what was initially convenient for big boat builders seems to be turning against them: Most of them change of model each 3 or 4 years and that leads to a devaluation of almost new boats on the market making in fact a good business to buy a 5 year old boat at 50% of a new boat.
> 
> Another factor is the cost of owning a boat in a nice place. They are high and have been increasing. When I sold my 6 year's old mass market 36ft I made some calculations and found out that it had cost me over 15 000 euros a year and that is in Portugal. On most Europe you will pay a lot more, and even more if it is a bigger boat.
> 
> This kind of money will allow you to charter a new boat for 7 weeks on a year (on the nicest spots) and that is more than what most people enjoy in a year, so it is only natural that young guys that have money for new boats opt for charter and leave all the hassle and money that cost to maintain a boat behind.
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> I don't see any indication that the costs associated with having a boat are decreasing, nor the crisis, quite the contrary, so I would guess this is a tendency that is going to be maintained:
> 
> A bigger target market for old guys that want boats bigger than 40ft (many retired), a target Charter Market for 40ft boats or bigger, a small market for guys rich enough to race/cruiser on new top of the cream boats, and a tiny market for true racing boats. The market for cruisers smaller than 38ft will continue to decrease, while inexpensive day boats (and even expensive ones) will be on the raise.
> 
> Looking at the positive side, the interest on sail and sailboats and the boats on the water seems not having decreased I would say that has even increased:
> 
> The Boat show tickets had not decreased in number and it seems to me that on charting grounds the number of sailing boats is bigger each year.
> 
> Care to comment?
> 
> ...


Hi Paulo

My thoughts


Sailing is an expensive hobby that requires some serious disposable income
It also requires time 
Unless you are a trust account kid, it is totally understandable that the average age for private ownership is on the up for these 2 reasons
This also explains the massive growth in the charter market that can cater to sailors of all ages. If you want to sail for 2 or 3 weeks a year, then charter
If you are wanting to sail for more than 2 or 3 weeks , I believe that fractional ownership is the way to go. The initial cost is shared as are all the running costs.
If you are able to sail for 12 weeks and longer, then you could consider outright ownership either via a charter company ownership scheme or direct where you are responsible for maintenance etc
Some charter companies have ownership schemes which offer a lot of flexibility providing you are able to make use of the boat for around 12 weeks per year. Sailing for less than 12 weeks makes these schemes expensive. The downside with these schemes is that you are often told what to buy by the charter company. This of course may or may not be a bad thing . At the end of these schemes, you can either roll your investment into another new boat or adopt fractional ownership. The other downside is that the depreciation in value is often under estimated by the the charter companies
If you have the time to sail for at least 3 months a year, then buying your own boat makes sense. If you wanr to avoid the inevitable depreciation of buying new, then the best value purchase is from a reputable charterer at the end of 5 years when you can have the boat surveyed, have all the problems fixed and get a new set of sails. The engine hours on the boat should be irrelevant. A well maintained diesel engine is capable of doing 15000 hours. If you want to sail for more than 2 to 3 weeks but don't have the time to sail for more than say 12 weeks per year, then buy one of these boats and get some co-owners to share the costs - this way, you will avoid the capital depreciation cost.
The charter companies are buying boats that are becoming bigger and bigger because many charterers are sharing the costs and the need for more accommodation on board is on the up
On the other hand we know that sail boats and common sense often have nothing to do with one another ))))

Just my opinion of course

Onwards n upwards

David


----------



## PCP

*Re: Nautical Market*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> My thoughts
> 
> 
> Sailing is an expensive hobby that requires some serious disposable income
> It also requires time
> Unless you are a trust account kid, it is totally understandable that the average age for private ownership is on the up for these 2 reasons
> This also explains the massive growth in the charter market that can cater to sailors of all ages. If you want to sail for 2 or 3 weeks a year, then charter
> If you are wanting to sail for more than 2 or 3 weeks , I believe that fractional ownership is the way to go. The initial cost is shared as are all the running costs.
> If you are able to sail for 12 weeks and longer, then you could consider outright ownership either via a charter company ownership scheme or direct where you are responsible for maintenance etc
> Some charter companies have ownership schemes which offer a lot of flexibility providing you are able to make use of the boat for around 12 weeks per year. Sailing for less than 12 weeks makes these schemes expensive. The downside with these schemes is that you are often told what to buy by the charter company. This of course may or may not be a bad thing . At the end of these schemes, you can either roll your investment into another new boat or adopt fractional ownership. The other downside is that the depreciation in value is often under estimated by the the charter companies
> If you have the time to sail for at least 3 months a year, then buying your own boat makes sense. If you wanr to avoid the inevitable depreciation of buying new, then the best value purchase is from a reputable charterer at the end of 5 years when you can have the boat surveyed, have all the problems fixed and get a new set of sails. The engine hours on the boat should be irrelevant. A well maintained diesel engine is capable of doing 15000 hours. If you want to sail for more than 2 to 3 weeks but don't have the time to sail for more than say 12 weeks per year, then buy one of these boats and get some co-owners to share the costs - this way, you will avoid the capital depreciation cost.
> The charter companies are buying boats that are becoming bigger and bigger because many charterers are sharing the costs and the need for more accommodation on board is on the up
> On the other hand we know that sail boats and common sense often have nothing to do with one another ))))
> 
> Just my opinion of course
> 
> Onwards n upwards
> 
> David


Well, logic does not always work in what regards sailing boats

If I had a boat in shared ownership I would not feel that it was mine and I would be always pissed with the way other owners treated the boat. I know myself, I am quite a maniac in what regards taking care of my boat and for what I can understand I am not the only one around this forum. On other hand, having been for some time looking for an used boats I could see how people take car of their boats and the general picture is quite bad.

Regarding buying a charter boat after 5 years, well, they are cheaper but for a reason: In terms of use those 5 years correspond to 20 in what regards the average boat for sell by a private owner.

In what regards engine, 15 000 hours is a maximum but after about half of it the boat needs a complete reconstruction and most just buy a new engine at that time. The maintenance of an engine with many hours is a lot more expensive than one with a few hours and the chances that something go wrong is bigger.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Now they both look way to big for anything I'd want or need and they are by no means classically beautiful but I like the look of both of them. Certainly they both look to be of great character, not to mention individual.
> 
> Presumably very modern below the waterline, though hopefully not equipped with one of those awful torpedo keels.


Hi, Andrews,

Well, it seems that you were the only one that find those boats sufficiently interesting to deserve a comment.

I don't know the boats or the designers. They are obviously one offs and the first one seems to have some years while the last one seems brand new, The first one (two masts) has a very unusual expensive rig that it makes a lot of sense to me in what regards sailing on a big boat with a very short crew. Its design seems to be Dutch.

The second one, obviously an aluminium one is almost for sure a French design. It looks very modern, fast and can even be a centerboarder.

If someone knows of anything more about those boats I would be interested.

In what regards torpedo keels they may not look well to you but there are a good reason for their use: efficiency. On a 40ft boat like yours (Malo 40), with an all lead keel they can save almost half a ton of weight for the same effect. Weight is not a good thing in any sailboat even if you seem to think otherwise

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Regarding sailboat popularity in Europe, particularly in France, some good news:

"The first week of the Race Village opening drew a record number of spectators. Since 20 October, no less than 230,000 people (including 10,000 school children) have walked the pontoons where the 20 participating boats are moored. The race's popularity is clearly evident.

 The success of this 7th edition is also obvious online. The race's official website drew 200,000 visitors in a week."

Vendée Globe: record attendance | Yacht News | Yachting World





Webisode 6 : La vie s'accélère aux Sables d'Olonne _por VendeeGlobeTV_

The race starts in about a week

...


----------



## Mr W

*Pogo 30*

Looking good!! 










//Mr W


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> I cannot resist to post photos two boats that caught my attention during my summer cruise. What do you think about them?


The boat on top sports a very odd sailplan. To my eye, the main is extremely small, and the spreaders look like they are swept back at least 45deg. , making the only main useless and chafeprone while reaching. Also, she is a little hard on the eyes.


----------



## bjung

*Re: Dehler 38*



Mr W said:


> Well guys, Dehler launches a new 38!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOA 11,30 m
> LWL 10,40 m
> Beam 3,75 m
> 
> Draft 2,00 m standard - 2,30 m competition
> Displacement 7 000 kg standard - 6 600kg competition
> Ballast 2 250 kg standard - 2 000 kg competition
> Mast length above WL 17,82 standard - 18,20 competition
> 
> Total sail area
> 79,3 m² standard
> 82,4m² competition
> 
> Main sail 43,7/46,0 m²
> Furling Jib 35,6/36,4m² (105%)
> 
> Only a foot longer than Dufour 36 Performance but 600kg heavier, at least in cruising spec. Hmm...
> 
> I like the Dehler 38R that should have been released a couple of years back better :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOA 11,46 m
> LWL 10,48 m
> Beam 3,75 m
> 
> Draft 2,40
> Displacement (light) 5 400 kg
> 
> Main sail 48,6 m²
> Jib 36,0 m²
> Code 0 95,0 m²
> Spinnaker (mast head) 129 m²


I was wondering when Dehler was going to address the gaping hole between 35 and 41 ft.. Maybe they will have a finished boat for Duesseldorf. Looks interresting. Hopefully the Dehler interior quality has not downgraded to Hanse standards.


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Solaris 42*

I post many types of boats that please many different sailors. I find them interesting and may beautiful but there are few that I like to own. This is one of those.

What a beautiful sailboat! Well some would say it is expensive but it costs not more than a HR for a similar quality, has a great interior and gives 2 times the sailing pleasure. I know, I know, some just like to cruise and want a sailboat that does the job with the least of sensations and max efficiency. Ok, ot is comprehensibly and makes sense...to some, I am not one of them













































































































They say about the boat:

*For over 35 years Solaris has been creating yachts with the same philosophy, designed and built to navigate safely for many years&#8230;

Design of the waterlines is entrusted to Soto Acebal, one of the world's best naval architects,	Ensuring excellent performance thanks to modern hull shapes and volumes designed for speed, stability and righting moment.

The main feature of this new 42', planned and implemented during the design stage, is a	particularly solid construction unaffected by deformation and torsion in all sea and wind conditions. For this reason the 42', like	all other Solaris models, boasts virtually unique reinforcing structures, that are very costly and not possible without labor-intensive techniques:

all the 40	mm thick composite bulkheads are laminated not only to the hull, but also and in particular to the	deck without need of inner mouldings and silicone.	&#8230;To further increase the structural stiffness all joinery is laminated to the hull.	Moreover there is	a structural continuity of the mast, main bulkhead, chainplates and keel attachment.
..
The	42', thanks to a	precise distribution of weight and ballast, shows	reduced pitch and roll	ensuring smooth sailing through the waves; the	boat is perfectly balanced and light at the wheels, ensuring, safe, fast and enjoyable whelming...

The new 42' is consistent with the philosophy that has always distinguished	Solaris:	building yachts for people who really go to sea and who appreciate:	structural strength, stiffness and rigidity, combined with excellent	performance in real time. All these are the real	essence of	seaworthiness.

*

Technicalcharacteristics Solaris One 42'
Loa 12.36	m
Beam 3.99	m
Draft 2.25/2.50/
Displacement	8.8t
Ballast 3.00	t
Mainsal 52	m2
Genoa	(108%)	45	m2
Engine	(Volvo	Penta)40/55	hp
Fuel 220	l
Water 350	l
Designer Javier	Soto	Acebal
Interior	design	Lucio	Micheletti

And I would say that this boat offers a moderated beam in what concerns modern tendencies (considerably lesser than most mass production 40ft cruisers) a modern hull with beam brought back (but nor really on the waterline), an highly efficient torpedo keel and an acceptable draft for cruising (2.25) while being enough to give a good performance to the ballast without the need of increasing it too much to compensate a lesser draft.

And with that high efficiency keel and considerable draft this boat has a a B/D of 34%. A stiff boat no doubt,

Not being an ultra light boat its weight is smaller than many mass production 40fts while having a sail area that will put it on the side of the more conservative performance cruisers.

A great boat, I am sure

I hope to see one on the Dusseldorf boat show. This one was presented in Hamburg.

....


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dehler 38*



bjung said:


> I was wondering when Dehler was going to address the gaping hole between 35 and 41 ft.. Maybe they will have a finished boat for Duesseldorf. Looks interresting. Hopefully the Dehler interior quality has not downgraded to Hanse standards.


One of the things I have noticed on this boat was that the quality of the interior design was incomparably better than on the Dehler 41. I hope the quality too.




























Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 30*



Mr W said:


> Looking good!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> //Mr W


I am very curious about this boat. As you know the Pogo 30 is a remake of the Pogo 8.50, a famous boat on Pogo story. The Pogo 8.50 was the first Pogo that, being more pointed to competition, namely the Transquadra, was what we could call the first Pogo that was also presented as a boat that could be used as a camping cruising boat.

I expect the Pogo 30 to have a better cruising interior and certainly with its swing keel will be a better cruising boat, but will it be faster than the 8.50?

Let's have a look at the 8.50:















































The boat won the 2001 Transquadra but the boat is not competitive anymore and since The jeanneau 3200 and the A31 come to scene the difference in real time on the Transquadra is huge. Can the Pogo 30 beat the A31? I have some doubts. The boat is very similar to the 8.50 but 64cms longer . It has more 10cm of beam (3.60 to 3.70m) has more 6m2 of sail (53 to 59m2) but regarding the weight we don't know nothing and I doubt the boat can be lighter than the 8.50 (2800kg), probably it will be heavier.

So, I am very curious because this will be very relevant in what regards the performance of two different types of boats, the A31 and the Pogo 30.

Of course we are talking about a Transat that is basically a downwind race. In a upwind race the A31 would smoke the 8.50. In fact the 8.50 and the Pogo 30 in what concerns racing will be limited to Transats or offshore downwind races while the A31 is not only a great solo boat but also a winner in regatta with a crew. Of course, the running rigging will be completely different for crew and solo racing.

The A31:











We don't know the Pogo 30 ballast or B/D ratio but probably it will be similar to the 8.50 (30%) That is low if compared with the one from the A31 (43%). So we have two very different hulls, one more narrow (3.23) but with a bigger B/D ratio and other beamier (3.60) but with a smaller B/D.

Till now the A31 comes out with flying colors but the A31 is a 9.55m boat against one with 8.50m. Now the things will be more even, with the 9.14m of the new Pogo 30. I guess we will have to wait for the next Transquadra to know

The new Pogo 30:


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 50*

New movie with the Pogo 50






I have to say I am not impressed: making 10.5K with 26.3K of wind at 100º is not a big deal for a performance 50ft boat ad the sea was pretty flat for that wind. Just to give you an example the XP 44, a boat with a better interior and smaller indicates on its ORC file 10.8K with 20k wind at 110º.

This impression is confirmed by the speeds measured on a test made by voile and voiliers. they got: *8.6K* speed at 45º with 16k TW.......*7.5K* at 50º with 10k TW....*8.3K* at 110º with 9k TW....12K at 140º with 13k TW. All this with almost flat sea.

If we compare this values with the ones from the Xp44 ORC file: *8.53* at 52º with 16k wind, *7.80k* at 52º with 10k wind, *8.44K* at 120º with 10k wind. The 140º speed value is not comparable since on the ORC file it is a value without a Spinaker and they used a big geenaker om the Pogo test.

The angles are not exactly the same (I have to use the ones on the ORC file) and they slightly favor the Xp 44, but then the XP 44 is a 13.29m boat and the Pogo 50 a 15.10m boat.

I am sure Pogo will make the difference downwind with 25/30k winds, but then, who cruises with 30K winds?

On other hand, upwind with waves the Pogo's wave drag will be much bigger than the one of the Xp 44 and I am sure that those almost similar numbers will turn clearly in favor of the XP44. Of course we are talking about a smaller boat, now, if the new XP 50 proves to be proportionally faster regarding the XP44...

Polars, contrary top the values on a ORC file not always completely accurate but have a look at the XP 50 Polar speeds:

http://www.x-yachts.com/uploads/Xp_50_-_Polar_-_Portrait.pdf.pdf

And the XP 50 is a boat with a gorgeous cruising interior...of course, more expensive but probably faster than the Pogo almost all the time on normal sailing circumstances.

But we are only talking about speed. The Pogo 50, that seems to have a basic but decent and practical interior will be probably easier and simpler to sail than the XP 50 and it will be a more appropriated boat to sail downwind and that's what we do on a circumnavigation, where the Pogo, will be a perfect boat: Fast, stable, easy and with a ridiculously small draft for a boat of that size.

...


----------



## PCP

PCP said:


> I cannot resist to post photos two boats that caught my attention during my summer cruise. What do you think about them?





bjung said:


> The boat on top sports a very odd sailplan. To my eye, the main is extremely small, and the spreaders look like they are swept back at least 45deg. , making the only main useless and chafeprone while reaching. Also, she is a little hard on the eyes.


I guess that "main" is mostly for balance the boat, a bad weather sail and a sail to be used (reffed) to have the boat straight to the wind on anchorage.

By hard on your eyes I guess you mean the rig? I agree but I think that will change with the sails up. Can you imagine? Rare, but not ugly. Probably it will make the boat look bigger. This rig gives plenty of power to the boat and will be very easy to handle. Downwind it will work like a dream, with both genoas polled to opposite sides.

On strong winds the smaller inner front sail and the small "main" will give it a perfect balance and I guess they will be able to take a lot of wind, tolled and reefed if needed.

It seems expensive to me but I can see me solo handling that big boat with ease, a lot more than the other one that has much bigger but also less sails

regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Pogo 30*



PCP said:


> The boat is very similar to the 8.50 but 64cms longer . It has more 10cm of beam (3.60 to 3.70m) has more 6m2 of sail (53 to 59m2) but regarding the weight we don't know nothing and I doubt the boat can be lighter than the 8.50 (2800kg), probably it will be heavier.


The weight is stated by Pogo to 2800kg, let's hope it doesn't exceed that by much. It will definitely be interesting to hear some reviews of this boat. The boat looks better than I thought it would, I thought the freeboards would look much higher.

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Some laughs*

These guys are among the crazier sailors. I hope they will sail differently when they pass to bigger boats


----------



## PCP

*Seascape 27*

If the speed performance of the Pogo 50 did not impress me on the Voile and Voiliers magazine test, the ones obtained with the Seascape 27 test did

Well, have a look:

*6.6K speed with 10k wind, close to the wind.

8.6K speed with 10k wind, at 120º

11.1K speed with 12k wind at 120º *

They had called it on the article: *The Slovenia Rocket*.

This boat, a bit less longer than the Pogo 8.5 represents the other contemporary way (without a big beam) designers are following to get very fast boats.

Let's compare some numbers:

*Lenght*: P-8.50 S-7.99 *Beam*: P-3.60 S-2.54 *weight*: P-2800kg S-1250kg *Draft*: P-1,75 S-0.85/1.95m

*B/D*: P-30% S-48%

I have no doubts that the Pogo is a much seaworthy offshore boat, made to cross oceans and easier to sail while the Seascape is a Coastal small cruiser, but in what regards speed and fun, I guess the Seascape is on another world

They say about the project guidelines:

*Seascape 27 offers a truly unique experience: the comfort of a 4-berth sailing boat with a separate wet room and toilet compartment, perfect for family cruising, as well as for inshore and offshore regattas, thanks to her superior sailing performance, versatility and easy handling. The boat is ready for sailing or transport in an hour or so, whereas her dimensions allow for trailer or shipping container transportation. Both innovations ensure the owner the benefits of easy accessibility to diverse cruising locations without the costs associated with year-round berthing....

The .. biggest problem that we noticed during our extensive involvement in yacht racing is: assembling a crew larger than 3-4 people is a real pain in the a**, not to mention that it is very difﬁcult to recruit it from the members of our own families.

Therefore both our boats, 18 and 27, are designed to be shorthanded and family friendly. In practice that means that full crew for Seascape 27 in inshore races is 3 or 4, but she can easily sail double handed or solo for navigations or long distance races. Since she is light, the loads on the ropes are relatively low, and her deck gear is generously sized so that everybody can participate.

*

Take a look:
















Curiously the boat was designed by a Racer/designer, one of the best, Sam Manuard that is a specialist on the minis. His minis are dominating the class. It is nice to see a designer specialized in fast beamy boats with not to much ballast doing a hell of a boat, relatively narrow and with a big B/D. Definitively Sam Manuard is very good and is one of NA that deserve to be followed closely.

*Take a look at this. It is really interesting:
*
http://www.biehlmarin.com/mediapool/3/35906/data/Seascape_27/2x-stage2_ver6.pdf

The boat costs 56 500 euros, including French Vat and if you want 5 sails, an engine and a trailer, you can add about more 16 000 euros. A lot of fun for the money

....


----------



## tdw

Paulo,

Just to clarify a couple of points .... 

My objection to torpedo keels is both concern re picking up stray objects and when combined with a fast boat the damage that keel would do to any creature it came into contact with. That is also my concern with fast boats overall. Hit a sunfish e.g at under ten knots and you may scare the hell out of both you and the fish but hopefully the encounter would not be fatal. Hit the same fish at 20 knots with one of those super sharp keels and I'm thinking minced fish. 

So I'm not against those keels on performance grounds, nor do I object to lightness in a boat as such. It is simply that to a very large extent I am content with moderate performance and moderate weight if that combines to make for a nice comfortable ride.



That said, as someone who is most often sailing short handed the smaller the gear I have to manage the better and all things considered a lightweight fractionally rigged boat is likely to be easier to handle than a heavy masthead. 

I'm thinking that our Malo is somewhere in the middle though more towards heavy than light. I do love the solidity of the thing, the quietness and not so lively movement particularly at anchor though I do sometimes wonder if something a wee bit lighter might be easier to handle without moving to the noise of very lightweight hulls. Newer generation boats from Malo and HR, plus the XC Series and the Swede you posted earlier would all be on my list were we to move up but frankly they are all out of my price range at roughly twice to three times what we paid for our old girl. 

cheers

Andrew B


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Just to clarify a couple of points ....
> 
> My objection to torpedo keels is both concern re picking up stray objects and when combined with a fast boat the damage that keel would do to any creature it came into contact with. That is also my concern with fast boats overall. Hit a sunfish e.g at under ten knots and you may scare the hell out of both you and the fish but hopefully the encounter would not be fatal. Hit the same fish at 20 knots with one of those super sharp keels and I'm thinking minced fish.
> 
> So I'm not against those keels on performance grounds, nor do I object to lightness in a boat as such. It is simply that to a very large extent I am content with moderate performance and moderate weight if that combines to make for a nice comfortable ride.
> 
> That said, as someone who is most often sailing short handed the smaller the gear I have to manage the better and all things considered a lightweight fractionally rigged boat is likely to be easier to handle than a heavy masthead.
> 
> I'm thinking that our Malo is somewhere in the middle though more towards heavy than light. I do love the solidity of the thing, the quietness and not so lively movement particularly at anchor though I do sometimes wonder if something a wee bit lighter might be easier to handle without moving to the noise of very lightweight hulls. Newer generation boats from Malo and HR, plus the XC Series and the Swede you posted earlier would all be on my list were we to move up but frankly they are all out of my price range at roughly twice to three times what we paid for our old girl.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Andrew B


Well, I guessed you thought like that, but I did not resist to a little provocation

Regarding hitting sea animals, mainly mammals, I guess that a bulbed keel would make almost as much damage as a torpedo keel at 20k.

I believe that mammals just are not used to have relatively silent boats to arrive so quickly. I don't hear stories of mammals being hit by motor yachts or ships and those are as fast or faster than most sailing boats even very fast ones.

I have no doubt that the mammals know and hear or fell that a sailboat is approaching they just don't are used that with that kind of noise, not typical from a power boat, a sailboat will come so fast. I guess it is a question of time till they get used to fast sailing boats and get out of the way. They are not stupid

Regarding catching stuff with the keel I guess you are right. I guess it is a small disadvantage to a gain of many hundreds of kg and a boat less expensive (lead is expensive).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Weight, sailing fast cruisers and modern design*

I cannot resist to post this small "article" that is a kind of introduction to the Seascape 27 presentation. I don't know if this was written by Sam Manuard (the boat designer) even if I have no doubt he thinks this way. Me to.

*Watching the incredible development of offshore racing yachts in the past 20 years, we realized that the gap between custom-made racing and mass production yachts was getting bigger and bigger.* Even though some companies ﬁnally started following the trend set by the former, by applying chines to the hull and twin rudders on the transom, *we believe the gap is far from being closed, as it lies deeper in mentality of the boatbuilders.*

Until recently both racing and cruising yachts were too heavy to plane which meant that your boat-speed was deﬁned by the length of the yacht measured on the water line. With other words, longer was by default faster, and better hull shape and lower displacement of the yacht could only help her get to her maximum speed a bit sooner.

*The main problem was sailing downwind where yachts quickly ended up with excessive energy generated by their sails which couldn't be transfer to speed due to yacht's inability to plane. This energy was therefore burned as excessive rolling that often ended up in so called "death rolls" which broached or even worse, uncontrollably jibed the yacht.*

Consequently, spinnakers were used only by experienced crews, and downwind sailing in strong wind was neither fast, nor safe nor comfortable.
More importantly, such racing yachts were not much different to fast cruisers. *Since none of them could plane, heavy wooden furniture didn't make a major difference in performance.*

And then the racing boats started to plane.

Industry launched a new term - the racer-cruiser. At their conception, racer-cruisers looked more like racers, while today, with notable exception of J-boats, Pogo Structures, and a few other non-mainstream manufacturers, look more like cruisers with bigger steering wheels and better ergonomics in the cockpit.

*Problem of the modern racer-cruisers is that they are weight sensitive. Add 10% displacement and, instead at 15K the yacht will start to plane at only 20 knots of wind. However, this is true only if a gennaker is used. *

*Not being able to handle big gennakers at high wind speeds, some crews will therefore bestuck at the uncomfortable and slow displacement speeds, even though the hull would allow them to plane.*

The modern racer-cruisers should therefore provide their crews all the necessary comfort without bulky visual luxury in interior and exterior.

*The main luxury that this kind of a yacht has to offer is her safety, ergonomics and performance close to those of the modern racing yachts, but achievable with a shorthanded crew.*

.....


----------



## HMoll

*"Problem of the modern racer-cruisers is that they are weight sensitive. Add 10% displacement and, instead at 15K the yacht will start to plane at only 20 knots of wind. However, this is true only if a gennaker is used."*

First quote that addresses weight sensitiveness in 319 pages or a long time. I wonder if 10% displacement should be a rule of thumb for testing the performance cruisers we so much enjoy to learn about. These boats are generally tested empty. Having said that, what is the ideal payload (persons, gear and consumables) and added displacement (installed equipment) of a cruising couple or family of four, and how it should affect, say, a Dufour 36P (6,400kg), an Elan 350 (5,350kg) or a J111 (4,216kg). Added displacement being equal, will it negatively affect more a lighter boat than a same length heavier boat? Or does it mean the contrary, that saving weight on the boat per-se leaves more "room" for crew, gear, consumables and fixed equipment? Are cruisers throwing away money at lighter boats?

In my boat, I used the one design crew weight limit of 748kg as a guide and have ended up with approx. 1000kg, all-in. This equals (a whopping) 21% of empty displacement. (Ok, I carry too much, but 500 of those kg are in water and batteries!).

So I keep wondering about all these super-performers, especially the recent wide stern shapes for downwind planing and if we should be making an observation on cruising added displacement and how different hull shapes "cope" with it. Just a thought.


----------



## PCP

*Weight.*

Yes, your re right about that. That is why I consider that in what regards performance cruising it makes more sense to buy a bigger boat than a smaller boat, I mean for cruising. If you have a light fast 33 ft with 3000kg, 10% will be 300kg.

If you have a fast 42ft with 6500kg, 10% will be 650kg. You cannot cruise with a 300kg payload, at least extensive cruising but with 650kg, if you travel light it is just possible, specially if you have a watermaker.

Anyway in a boat like the Seascape 27 you can have a hell of a boat to enjoy everyday, day sailing, or racing and a fast boat for cruising, but while cruising and with a boat with a reasonable load the performance will be completely different (in what regards planing), unless we are talking about weekend or camping cruising and that is perfectly possible since the boat has a swing keel and can go anywhere, even be pulled to land.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Hydrofoiling*






If I was younger...I would love to do that


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 33 / Hanse 345*

The movie of that comparative test on Yacht magazine that I had already talked about when I posted about these two boats. It is a comparative but the boats were not sailed at the same time.

Nice images from both boats, especially the Bavaria that in its test had more wind and waves. Both boats look good on the water.

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Bavaria-Cruiser-33-gegen-Hanse-345/1833310a228ffb4512dd97e38f45e6ac

....


----------



## HMoll

*Renewables on board*

One of the most interesting aspects in yacht development these days is in electric energy systems. The Acciona 100% Ecopowered Vendee Globe entry is a commendable racing campaign. Check out the power equipment on this vessel!


----------



## PCP

*Re: Renewables on board*



HMoll said:


> One of the most interesting aspects in yacht development these days is in electric energy systems. The Acciona 100% Ecopowered Vendee Globe entry is a commendable racing campaign. Check out the power equipment on this vessel!
> 
> Energy on board ACCIONA 100% EcoPowered - Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - YouTube


Yes, That is remarkable. I had posted that video some time ago

They use the same brand and type of batteries I have installed on my boat, just not so many

From all the systems the one I like more is that water generator. I have posted already about that. It is really amazing and can deliver 500w at 8K speed (if I remember correctly). The product is already commercialized in racing and cruising version. It was developed for Transat racers, now it is available for cruisers too:






Emission de solution from Watt&Sea on Vimeo.






Hydrogenerateur Watt&Sea from Watt&Sea on Vimeo.

http://www.wattandsea.com/en/cruising-hydrogenerator

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sea*

On another thread there is a discussion about if an old sailing ship should or not have sailed on an hurricane, because some say it is safer on the sea.

Guys, stay safe out there. Any sailor that has not a big respect to the sea and is not afraid of bad weather ... is not a good sailor and probably is a bit crazy.

Some images to remind us that the sea is the boss and that we just do what he permits us to do.


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 12.50 charter.*

That is not bad but for a Pogo downwind with a spinnaker it is a normal speed. Nice movie. Is that you on that boat?

I think that is a Pogo that is for charter in Greece.

I think that it is the same boat and here, they go fast






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona Yachts/Sydney yachts*

*Yes!!!*

This is a great new and one I had not yet seen on any sailboat magazine!

I love Sydney yachts, they make my style more than the Pogo, but they were very expensive had no European dealer and if they had, any problem with the boat with be dealt not by the factory but by someone that would not give the same kind of warranty in their work and evaluation of the problem.

Not anymore on both counts:

Sydney yacht, the superb GTS 43 and 37, Ker designed boats, are going to be made in Europe by Salona

I don't know the therms of the deal but it should be a strong one since they are going to sell the boat for less money due to the use of industrial equipment.

This makes all the sense for both brands (I don't know if Salona had bought a share of Sydney yacht or not): Sydney will be able to sell less expensive boats in Europe and will have the benefice of Salona already installed dealership and Salona will pass to offer fast cruising boats and super fast cruising boats I mean boats that will be able to win in compensated and real time almost every race.

I think this have probably to do with Ker himself that has been working, in what regards production boats, mainly with these two brands.

Just a small press new from Sydney will Salona remained silent but has already in their site the Sydney yachts:

GTS 37 - Salona Yachts
GTS 43 - Salona Yachts

Sydney Yachts, the Australian manufacturer of performance racer / cruisers and AD Boats, builder of Salona Yachts reached an agreement on the production and distribution of Sydney Yachts.

As a first step, both companies agreed to enter into a *global production and distribution contract*. This agreement enables a selected group of Salona dealers to represent Sydney Yachts and their new GTS range. The latest model of Sydney Yachts is the GTS43....

"We are very proud to present this Australian icon to our dealers and performance orientated clients. The unique Sydney Yacht brand will continue to develop successfully under our multi-brand strategy with the new GTS37 to be presented soon."

" We see this cooperation as a natural progression of our very successful Salona Brand of cruiser racers and believe it will offer our customers more choice in the performance yacht market. Sydney Yachts will retain its own identity and operational independence", said Krešimir, director of AD Boats.

Sydney Yachts will now produce its yachts closer to their main markets and will benefit from AD Boat's strong dealer and service network.
"In AD Boats, a well-established manufacturer of sailing yachts in Europe known for Salona Yachts, we have found an ideal strategic partner who shares our values of customer focus, innovation, quality, and customer service."...

"The path is clear for a bright future together. This cooperation will enable us to significantly strengthen Sydney Yachts and further expand Sydney Yachts product portfolio with fascinating new performing yachts", said Darren Williams, managing director of Sydney Yachts.

*This cooperation allows Sydney Yachts to deliver custom build quality for a production price. Sydney Yachts will be competitive with all known European production yards on price but with the advantage of our many years of experience in the development of performance racer cruisers for the tough Australian conditions.*






This is am older model and it would nor be produced by Salona, at least right now, but it will give the idea about the interior that is a bit Pogo like but with doors


----------



## opc11

*Bavaria Vision 46 Review*

Paulo,

I believe you were talking a bit about the new line from Bavaria. Here's a new review on youtube i found today (from yachting world). Enjoy!


----------



## PCP

*Re: Bavaria Vision 46 Review*



opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I believe you were talking a bit about the new line from Bavaria. Here's a new review on youtube i found today (from yachting world). Enjoy!
> 
> Bavaria Vision 46 - YouTube


Thanks for posting it. I have posted already about this boat and it seems that Toby Hodges is reading what I post. I am kidding off course, but he says about the boat the same things I had said and confirm some others that I suspected, in what regards sailing. It is true that I would prefer a bit more B/D ratio but it seems that even like that the boat sails very well.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-185.html#post794687

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-213.html#post819559

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-243.html#post852168

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-288.html#post879417

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-291.html#post888902

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-297.html#post903214

I had not been inside the boat yet but by the photos and designs the boat appeared to have excellent ergonomics, inside and outside and be different in what regards other deck saloons that are that way to have a king's aft bedroom and have worse ergonomics outside on account of that.

It is not the case with this one that also provides 4 winches, 2 in each side of cockpit at easy reaching from the wheel when the competition only provides two, making necessary to take the main sail out of the winch, or the genoa to use it.

It is not shown on the boat test but another interesting particularity is that it has a large locker one one of the sides of the boat (the boat comes standard only with one cabin on the back). Contrary to other DS boats this one is a better boat to live aboard and a better sailing boat in a sense that its ergonomics are better, it has a better and bigger storage space and it sails at least as well as the others, namely the Jeanneau DS that is a good sailing boat.

Lots of details that point out this boat was made to be out of the marina and that includes not only the big storage spaces but also very good holding points.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## opc11

I noticed the winches too. Great convenience for short handed sailing IMO. I was a bit surprised that there wasn't technically a dedicated nav station down below. Not sure I dig that. As to ballast.......does that mean more beers will have to be stored below?


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria Vision 46*



opc11 said:


> I noticed the winches too. Great convenience for short handed sailing IMO. I was a bit surprised that there wasn't technically a dedicated nav station down below. Not sure I dig that. As to ballast.......does that mean more beers will have to be stored below?


A lot more

Regarding the nav station it does not surprise me. British are very traditional and want things even when they are not used. I sail a lot in places that need a lot of navigation, Croatia for example, that sometimes is a labyrinth between Islands so you have to prepare well the next day. What you need? :

A pilot book, that you can look in the table chart (on this boat also) but that I normally look at the main table to be able to discuss it with my wife, the paper chart that I also prefer to deploy on the main table for the same reason and some work on the plotter that can be made on the notebook on the main table, if you can read the charts on the notebook, or, in my case, have to use the second interior plotter that is far away from the main table where I prepare the voyage.

In fact in what regards what I do and use this is a more interesting solution than a dedicated and traditional chart table since it permits two persons to seat face by face, discussing over a pilot book and a map, with the plotter at hand, the next day trip.










There are a space for a plotter on the side of that multi-function table as well space for the VHF radio. For me, I would need more a Navtex and a good battery/consumption controller. I would transform the first cabinet on the other side of the table in a space for having that stuff with remaining space for an AIS screen or any other thing.

When I am sailing I use for navigation almost exclusively the outside plotter, near the wheel since I have already all needed information.

That space that is used as chart table, like it is, can be used for reading, for taking the breakfast but most of all if you have guests you can lower that table and convert the saloon in a really big saloon with lots of space for sitting in a very convivial manner. Great design in my opinion.


----------



## PCP

*Orc vpp*

Very interesting information about a major alteration on the accuracy of their Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) to be implemented for the 2013 sailing season.

I hope that they get it right this time and that an unfair advantage is not given to heavy boats regarding light ones (I am talking of modern boats) as it was till know.

This is very important because this is what defines the shape/weight of many cruiser-racers that to be winners under the past formula would have to be lesser good sailboats. That would be a right step towards boat development.

They say:

the Offshore Racing Congress (ORC) is pleased to announce a major step forward in the accuracy of its Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) to be implemented for the 2013 sailing season. One of the principal elements of this program, the Residuary Resistance *(Rr) formulation, has been revised to now be more accurate for a broader range of yacht types that race within the ORC fleet database*.

This new innovation is the result of an extensive multi-year study conducted by the International Technical Committee (ITC) in which historical data derived from tank test results has been combined with new research using Computational Fluid Dynamic (CFD) tools to create the new formulation.

"This is a huge step forward in solving a difficult problem which has faced VPP research for many years," says Bruno Finzi, Chairman of ORC. "The Congress applauds the ITC for the completion of this major project that will benefit all boats racing in the ORC fleets around the world."

*The new Rr formulation used in the new VPP is producing theoretical predictions which are much closer to the measured performance data taken from numerous boats in the ORC fleet.*

"We looked at this carefully to help validate our results. The implied wind calculations are also much closer to that observed on the race course," says Alessandro Nazareth, Chairman of ITC.

The Rr project's new formulation was the result of collating the relevant Delft Systematic data, analyzed by ITC member Kay Enno Brink and the CFD results coming from ITC's Philippe Pallu's work at CRAIN and* the Fine-marine code work performed by new ITC member Jason Ker*. Another ITC member working on this project was Andy Claughton of Southampton University.

"Validation of this new formulation has been very important to ensure that all elements of the fleet are treated fairly," says Claughton. *"Our tests indicate that if any race from the past is rescored using the new rule the spread of corrected times for the first 10 or 15 boats is reduced, sometimes by 20-30%. This is fantastic progress."*

ORC ANNOUNCES NEW IMPROVEMENT TO 2013 VPP

I guess this is really about lighter boats not to be unfairly penalized because designers were complaining about that and Jason Ker had a leading position on that complaint, probably because he is just one of the leading NA whose boats win, light or not

As they quote the work and contribution of Jason Ker for this new model, so I guess it is just the case.

This is a major step in what regards conditions for better sailing boats, a bigger than most would think. Shapes of sailing boats have been determined along the years by racing rules and the type of shapes/weight/draft they favor.

...


----------



## PCP

*Fox 10.20 Capado*

Talking about small performance cruisers that can sail far away:

This guys seems to have a lot of fun

The first part of the movie is interesting in what regards sailing.


----------



## PCP

*Acciona Open60*

Opc11 and I posted already about this boat. Look at this magnificent Video. If Acciona finishes the race it will be a victory and they will have proven their point: It is possible to circumnavigate using only renewable sources.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

2days to go!!!!

Some more racers:

Jean le Cam





Jean Le Cam et SynerCiel vus d'en haut _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Bernard Stamm





Teaser Cheminées Poujoulat _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Bertrand de Broc





Clip hélico Votre Nom autour du Monde _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Moth, best off 2012*

I really love these machines. They should piss any sailor in a "normal" boat Look at the difference in speed. I still remember when the first guy was doing this. Everybody was saying the guy was crazy and that it was a circus act. Well, not anymore






ZHIK NAUTICA 2012 Moth Worlds Best Of from VIDEO.JUERGKAUFMANN.COM on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*Salona Shipyard*

An interview with Kresimir, the director of Salona Yachts, by European boat builder magazine.






Well. I already knew that, but it explains why a high tech high quality brand with a very specialized construction like Sydney Yacht looked to Salona to build its boats in Europe.

Regarding what we says about having recovered to the same production numbers as 2007 (before the crisis), to understand the importance of that, well, Benetau is making half the number of boats and is not one of the brands that is doing badly.


----------



## PCP

*Sydney GTS37*

So, why I am making all all this noise about Salona producing Sydney yachts? Are they really that fast?

Let's look at the dimensions of the 37 and compare them with one of the fastest performance cruisers of about that size, the XP38:

Lengnt : XP-11.58m&#8230;&#8230; Sydney-11.4m weight: XP- 6775kg&#8230;.Sydney 4950kg

Beam: XP- 3.70m&#8230;&#8230;Sydney- 3.52m

Draft; Xp-2.40m&#8230;&#8230;Sydney- 2.45m

Ballast ratio- XP-41%----Sydney-?

Regarding Ballast they don't give the number but that is not by the same reason Benetau does not include that information on the Oceanis line. I am pretty sure that this boat has a B/D ratio at least equal to the XP and probably superior. It has to have to carry all that sail area with a smaller beam.

Sail Area upwind XP- 87.5m2&#8230;&#8230;Sydney- 80.6m2 (the XP with a *106%genoa *the S with *a iRC Jib*)

Downwind Area Xp-178m2&#8230;&#8230;.Sydney - 195m2

So, do you get it? This boat is going to smoke a XP 38 and it will be among the fastest boats around for its size being faster than almost all 40ft performance cruisers.

These boats have to have a hi-tech construction and normally are much more expensive even than a Xyacht. Not anymore, now, made by Salona they announce a great price:

219 000 euros with and aluminum mast and 249 000 euros with a Carbon mast. Well, that is a lot of money for a 37ft but that will be a lot less than what costs a boat with approximated performances like the Santa Cruz 37.

*KER says about this design:*

The Sydney GTS37 design is the fi rst of the new GTS range which we have been contracted to provide designs for Darren Williams,the MD of Sydney Yachts and a keen yachtsman himself felt that the market wanted more performance rather than just another heavyweight windward-leeward specialist, so having sailed on the Ker 53 Cruiser-Racer and experienced the genuinely high performance cruiser-racer concept Sydney Yachts asked Ker Design to put the latest ideas and technology into the new GTS range.

We first explored the low-road in weight, putting on a fin without bulb in order to reduce the required sail area and keep the rating down, but *aside from being competitive* we couldn't really get excited about the concept and couldn't see why the end customers would either. We were stuck in a middle ground with a modern hull shape and form stability in spades but still too heavy to really take advantage of the advanced shape.

So, not satisfied, we threw away what we'd done and went back around the design loop, much lighter with the overall displacement,bulb keel, taller rig.

When we computed the drag with the CFD codes(we mainly used Dave Egan's Flowlogic code, for which Ker Design recently acquired a 64 processor cluster to allow us to create a full drag matrix) and crunched the numbers in the VPP, we found that not only had we made a significant gain in speed, but the handicap competitiveness was also improved, which was later confirmed by the trial certificate.

Worrying that our in-house CFD results *were too good to be true* we asked Charles Crosby of Cape Computational Fluid Dynamics to compute some important drag points using different CFD software, but with the differences coming in within 0.5% of relative drag, (which typically equates to only one or two IRC "points" of performance), and in the safe direction, this just added confidence that we were on the right track. The result is *the Sydney GTS37 which is able to match the faster 40'cruiser-racers around the track in all conditions, plane away from them as the wind increases and give a very good chance of winning on handicap*.

An important side-benefit of this development is that whereas the narrow canoe hull forms of the contemporary IRC cruiser-racers are disliked by the ORCi rule, the more voluminous hull form type we have used in our Sydney GTS37 is well favored, as well as providing more living space below.

Aside from the general performance characteristics, other features we incorporated into the Sydney GTS37 are the ergonomic cockpit layout, twin wheels, carbon rudder stock, *stainless steel keel and mast support structure for stiffness and reliability*.

*The Sydney Yacht brief was to provide a boat for those who have a wish to do a bit of cruising, yet sail fast and competitively, but it also works well as an option for those that want to race the fastest 40'cruiser-racers on-the-water, as well on the handicap board*.

Well, Ker knows what he is talking about since its racers are winning practically everything that is to be won:

Results | Ker Yacht Design

So do you get my drift on why I was happy for this boat being produced in Europe at a competitive price?

Besides the boat is beautiful:























































In an interview Ker referred to the 37 and 43GTS in a slightly different way, but also an interesting one:

After a number of spins of the design loop, we have finally settled on the high-performance road for the new Sydney GTS37 & GTS43.* Reducing the overall weight, maximizing the waterline length and ballast ratio. *Not only does this fit well with our general design philosophy, but it also came out of our studies as being the most competitive route, something that bodes well for IRC. The hull shape is also very competitive under ORC.

The origins of the shape can be traced back to research on AC90's (2007-2008), which is perhaps the first time the full weight of AC R&D resources was applied to an unconstrained hull form, leading to some considerable advances over a six month period. Adapting and applying the lessons we learned then and since to the problem of a fair-form IRC racer,* we ended up with a powerful but low drag hull form that picks up additional stability when it heels. The transom width is moderate on the sailing waterline but on deck the max beam carries aft *to allow the crew to sit further outboard and also give the helmsman very good visibility of telltales and waves.

*A strong characteristic of our designs has been that they are all-rounder's, able to pick up top results whatever the conditions.*

The Sydney GTS37 & GTS43 will be no exception, with a generous sail plan ensuring light air performance, good stability for reaching and upwind, while low drag is always helpful! Most of her competitors are relatively heavier.

We found through our CFD analyses that with our powerful hull form we were able to reduce displacement while still remaining competitive in windward-leeward racing but gain a lot of performance downwind as the wind increased and in light air. Of course a great side benefit of reduced displacement is that the boat will be more responsive and fun to sail, *the GTS37 being over 10% faster downwind in a breeze than a 40' racer-cruiser from one of our competitors and the GTS43 even faster!*

.....


----------



## G1000

*Re: Salona Shipyard*



PCP said:


> Regarding what we says about having recovered to the same production numbers as 2007 (before the crisis), to understand the importance of that, well, Benetau is making half the number of boats and is not one of the brands that is doing badly.


I would suggest to check Hanse Group Financial Reports (or any other publicly listed builder) HanseGroup - Geschaeftsbericht 2011-2012, quite interesting info.

btw "Within Germany, it has already been resolved to close down the production facilities for Dehler yachts in Meschede-Freienohl by the end of 2012 and to transfer production to the venues in Greifswald and Goleniow, Poland. Outside of Germany, the subsidiaries in France and Norway are also about to be closed down. Thanks to these measures, substantial cuts in costs are expected in future."


----------



## PCP

*Re: Salona Shipyard*



G1000 said:


> I would suggest to check Hanse Group Financial Reports (or any other publicly listed builder) HanseGroup - Geschaeftsbericht 2011-2012, quite interesting info.
> 
> btw "Within Germany, it has already been resolved to close down the production facilities for Dehler yachts in Meschede-Freienohl by the end of 2012 and to transfer production to the venues in Greifswald and Goleniow, Poland. Outside of Germany, the subsidiaries in France and Norway are also about to be closed down. Thanks to these measures, substantial cuts in costs are expected in future."


 Hi G!,

You are given me work to see what you want to say

The market climate for sailing yachts has continued to become murky in fiscal year 2011/12. The world market for sailing yachts with lengths between 10 and 20 metres has shrunk for the seventh year in a row. The main reason for this lies in the national debt crisis in Southern Europe. An internal HanseGroup market study has quantified new orders for the worldwide market for sailing yachts in 2011/12 at a minus of 8.8 % in comparison to last year.

In this connection, we are very proud to have slightly increased our turnover.

HanseGroup - Geschaeftsbericht 2011-2012

Yes Hanse is doing good but even so the results are way below from the ones of 2007 and I mean by an order of magnitude. Even with reasonable results, as you pointed out, they have to close factories.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Marsvinet

Paulo, if you have the time, please go to the website: ninfayachtsdotcom, and tell me what you think about the "calipso 36"

I am unable to post the link directly as i have to few posts in this forum.

A traditional looking yacht made from wood/epoxy.


----------



## Faster

Marsvinet said:


> Paulo, if you have the time, please go to the website: ninfayachtsdotcom, and tell me what you think about the "calipso 36"
> 
> I am unable to post the link directly as i have to few posts in this forum.
> 
> A traditional looking yacht made from wood/epoxy.


Handsome boats... I suspect you'll find that Paulo will find them a tad too conservative 

But nice looking work. Are you affiliated with the company?


----------



## PCP

*Ninfa Yachts*



Marsvinet said:


> Paulo, if you have the time, please go to the website: ninfayachtsdotcom, and tell me what you think about the "calipso 36"
> 
> I am unable to post the link directly as i have to few posts in this forum.
> 
> A traditional looking yacht made from wood/epoxy.


Here is the link:

CRUISING BOATS

The 24 and the 30 daysailers were on my list to post when I had time

Contrary of what Faster thinks I like classical boats, not for me, or for me now but I really like them.

Regarding the Marsvinet 36 I have mixed feelings. you see, for me a classic boat, even a modern one, has to be absolutely beautiful and this one even if nice....well, that cabin is too high, that transom could be better designed and the interior even if of high quality is unimaginative and a bit heavy. I mean even for a traditional interior you need a good designer not just good wood and a good carpenter. Just try to see what I mean:














































I like strip planking construction, I like the sail area and modern rig, I like the keel and the B/D ratio, I don't like the rudder, I don't like the beam: classic boat should be less beamy (It don't look like because the beam is not carried aft, but this is a beamy boat, more beamy than my old Bavaria 36). I think a tiller would be nicer on this boat but no doubt this is a boat that will stand out as different. But if I wanted a classic boat there would be others that I would prefer.

Now in what regards the smaller daysailers, it is other story. The 24 ft, that I hope to see in Dusseldorf, is absolutely gorgeous and the 30ft is a very nice boat.

Curiously the under-body of those two seems more modern than the one of the 36. Better rudder design and not so beamy.























































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transpac 2012*

One of the races that I find interesting and I did not follow, cause I was sailing was the Transpac (solo racing).

I want to have a good look at it, particularly to see how a little Pogo 2 (mini racer-21.3ft) performed in real time against boats much bigger and heavy.

For now, some nice images:


----------



## G1000

*Vendee Globe 2012 dockside tour with Alex Thomson and Mike Golding*


----------



## Marsvinet

Hi Paulo,

Yes it is beamy boat compared to the classics and therefore less pretty. However, the volume is better. Regarding the interior, i think it looks like a nice place to snuggle up with a cup of coffe on a rainy day.

Now, comparing this boat on a scale going from HR-Malø-Xc-Xp, how will she fare ?


----------



## bjung

*Re: Seascape 27*



PCP said:


> If the speed performance of the Pogo 50 did not impress me on the Voile and Voiliers magazine test, the ones obtained with the Seascape 27 test did
> 
> Well, have a look:
> 
> *6.6K speed with 10k wind, close to the wind.
> 
> 8.6K speed with 10k wind, at 120º
> 
> 11.1K speed with 12k wind at 120º *
> 
> They had called it on the article: *The Slovenia Rocket*.
> 
> This boat, a bit less longer than the Pogo 8.5 represents the other contemporary way (without a big beam) designers are following to get very fast boats.
> 
> Let's compare some numbers:
> 
> *Lenght*: P-8.50 S-7.99 *Beam*: P-3.60 S-2.54 *weight*: P-2800kg S-1250kg *Draft*: P-1,75 S-0.85/1.95m
> 
> *B/D*: P-30% S-48%
> 
> I have no doubts that the Pogo is a much seaworthy offshore boat, made to cross oceans and easier to sail while the Seascape is a Coastal small cruiser, but in what regards speed and fun, I guess the Seascape is on another world
> 
> They say about the project guidelines:
> 
> *Seascape 27 offers a truly unique experience: the comfort of a 4-berth sailing boat with a separate wet room and toilet compartment, perfect for family cruising, as well as for inshore and offshore regattas, thanks to her superior sailing performance, versatility and easy handling. The boat is ready for sailing or transport in an hour or so, whereas her dimensions allow for trailer or shipping container transportation. Both innovations ensure the owner the benefits of easy accessibility to diverse cruising locations without the costs associated with year-round berthing....
> 
> The .. biggest problem that we noticed during our extensive involvement in yacht racing is: assembling a crew larger than 3-4 people is a real pain in the a**, not to mention that it is very difﬁcult to recruit it from the members of our own families.
> 
> Therefore both our boats, 18 and 27, are designed to be shorthanded and family friendly. In practice that means that full crew for Seascape 27 in inshore races is 3 or 4, but she can easily sail double handed or solo for navigations or long distance races. Since she is light, the loads on the ropes are relatively low, and her deck gear is generously sized so that everybody can participate
> 
> Take a look at this. It is really interesting:
> 
> http://www.biehlmarin.com/mediapool/3/35906/data/Seascape_27/2x-stage2_ver6.pdf
> 
> The boat costs 56 500 euros, including French Vat and if you want 5 sails, an engine and a trailer, you can add about more 16 000 euros. A lot of fun for the money
> 
> ....*


*

Thanks for posting the Seascape 27. This design has a lot going for it. Fast, trailerable, shipable in a 40ft container, lifting keel all helps to expand your cruising grounds. The price is also attractive. Hopefully they will have one in Duesseldorf.*


----------



## PCP

*High quality production boat versus Custom boat:*



Marsvinet said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Yes it is beamy boat compared to the classics and therefore less pretty. However, the volume is better. Regarding the interior, i think it looks like a nice place to snuggle up with a cup of coffe on a rainy day.
> 
> Now, comparing this boat on a scale going from HR-Malø-Xc-Xp, how will she fare ?


With all honesty I cannot answer to that. Even in what regards building quality I have been many times inside the boats you mention and I only have seen some photos of the boat you mention.

However those brands have an huge knowledge for having built many boats with similar systems (rudder, keel fixation, structure, union of the hull/deck) and know pretty well what works so when you buy a boat from them you would have a lot more possibilities that will be a well built boat in all major points and if the boat is a new model, you will only have to care with small details that they will probably fix anyway. If it is a boat that is the 10 boat they made from the same exact model, probably even that has been sorted out.

Of course the Calipso 36 can be a very well built boat from the beginning and they can have all this areas well covered and get it all right on the first time. You can have luck, you can know enough of boat building to see the project and follow the building to assure everything is perfect (I don't have that level of knowledge) or have a total confidence on the NA and on the people that build the boat and then that will not be a problem for you.

There are however some things that are probably for sure:

That boat will offer a superior customization and probably the interior will be a lot like what you want and you will have an unique boat.

On the negative side that boat will not retain the value as an used boat as any of the others. It cannot mean nothing to someone that will have this boat as his final boat and know that he will not sell it, but money is money and value is value

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe 2012 dockside tour with Alex Thomson and Mike Golding*



G1000 said:


> Vendee Globe 2012


OH Yes!!!!!!!! I cannot wait

Look at Alessandro going fast with 40K wind as if it was nothing!!! it is a pity he has an old boat. I guess old or new, this guy is going to impress.

*21 hours* to the Start!!!





Team Plastique vu d'en haut _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe 2012 dockside tour with Alex Thomson and Mike Golding*



G1000 said:


>


G, absolutely fantastic stuff Thanks for posting.

I will not post anything for some time to give the guys the opportunity *not to miss this.*

Not only Mike and Alex are knowledgeable but full of humor. It is fantastic the amount of information you get about top boat design and technology.

On another side, did you recall the excitement of the school boys and girls that are making a tour visit with their teachers (end of last movie)? very early in the morning and they begun their class with a Vendee Globe visit: How coll is that?

The Vendee Globe site has also a page dedicated to kids. That's a pity that it has no translation to English.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Marsvinet

Hi Paulo,

Exelent advice, if you find it difficult to judge this boat, it will be impossible for me.
I find the concept of a classic yacht with modern performance intriguing, but perhaps a risky and expensive path for someone with limited knowledge.

The Sydney GTS 37, looks interesting. Hope you will have more on it in the future.


----------



## Marsvinet

Faster said:


> Handsome boats... I suspect you'll find that Paulo will find them a tad too conservative
> 
> But nice looking work. Are you affiliated with the company?


Not in any way


----------



## PCP

Marsvinet said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Exelent advice, if you find it difficult to judge this boat, it will be impossible for me.
> I find the concept of a classic yacht with modern performance intriguing, but perhaps a risky and expensive path for someone with limited knowledge.
> 
> ...


Thanks. There are on the market some beautiful modern classic boats. Some years ago I had a real interest on this one. It turned out to be a bit more expensive than what I could afford. Isn't it a beautiful boat?




























Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> Thanks. There are on the market some beautiful modern classic boats. Some years ago I had a real interest on this one. It turned out to be a bit more expensive than what I could afford. Isn't it a beautiful boat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Moody 41, nice boat. They had one at the Annapolis Show this year. The Hanse affiliation was very evident next to the Hanse boats. Looks like all the same materials were used, from wood stock to stanchions. The one at the show was around $350000 if I remember correctly with quite a list of options.


----------



## opc11

*Re: Moth, best off 2012*



PCP said:


> I really love these machines. They should piss any sailor in a "normal" boat Look at the difference in speed. I still remember when the first guy was doing this. Everybody was saying the guy was crazy and that it was a circus act. Well, not anymore
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ZHIK NAUTICA 2012 Moth Worlds Best Of from VIDEO.JUERGKAUFMANN.COM on Vimeo.


Paulo, that is AWESOME! Who makes those? I'm wondering what they cost.


----------



## Sternik

A while back, PCP introduced Cobra 33 to this thread. Now, her bigger sister is out, again designed by polish NA Andrzej Skrzat (he designed the entire line of Delphia yachts as well as my boat). Look out, she does look angry ;-)














































Manufacturer's gallery

Technical specifications:

Length
12,3 m
Beam
3.95 m
Draft 2,35 m 
Weight 7900 Kg
Ballast 2800 Kg

Main sail 52 m2 Genoa 54 m2 
CE Category A


----------



## PCP

*Cobra 41*

Interesting boat. Light, with a good B/D, nice but i cannot say I understand the design of the transom, I mean the boat is designed to sail sail only with very limited angles of heel? I would understand that if it was a slow cruiser but it seems to be a performance boat and the weight and sail area confirm that. Take a look:










Here the boat is sailing already out of its lines.










I Know by reputation the NA and it is a good one. I would love to know the reason for this design of transom on this boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Moody 41*



bjung said:


> Moody 41, nice boat. They had one at the Annapolis Show this year. The Hanse affiliation was very evident next to the Hanse boats. Looks like all the same materials were used, from wood stock to stanchions. The one at the show was around $350000 if I remember correctly with quite a list of options.


Right, it is a Bill Dixon design but the hull looks very much the hull of the old Hanse 40.










It is a pity that the B/D is on the low side (28%), smaller than on the new Hanse 415. The boat has some resemblance in its classicism with the Xc 42 and a good interior....but the Xc42 has 44% of B/D. Not as good (not even closer) as the Xc42 as an offshore cruiser but a very interesting boat for the ones that make mostly coastal cruising...and that's the vast majority.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Moth, best off 2012*



opc11 said:


> Paulo, that is AWESOME! Who makes those? I'm wondering what they cost.


On the left you have the list of builders...and it can be home made

The International Moth Class Association

Now, do you mean that you never saw this movie:


----------



## rockDAWG

These are nice boats love the clean lines. No sure if anyone knows more about them.


----------



## Sapwraia

Paulo, hi - great thread ! The Moody 41 has probably deserved to sell more hulls than it has; but the show / demo boats all have the optional high gloss timber interiors and oval portlights which must put off a few people. 

The other thing which afflicts most twin wheeled yachts under 13 metres is that you can't lie down on the cockpit seats because they terminate at the aft end with a solid moulding for the steering pedastal. At least with a single wheel you can stretch out - even if your legs hang slightly over the end. This is an important feature for me - especially in warmer climates where on-deck sleeping is a happy option ! I tested the Moody 41 for this at the Southampton Boat Show and it failed miserably, which is a backward step on a yacht this size.

Thoughts ?



Cheers, Robert


----------



## Sapwraia

New Ovni Evolution 43 

Not sure that this new yacht has been discussed yet ? Has been talked about by Ovni within the industry for a couple of months now and has just been listed on their website but no other details there yet. Looks like their version of the Sense 43 - maybe Ovni's time has come now that chines have gone mainstream !

cheers Robert


----------



## Sapwraia

Ovni Evolution 43

quoting Euros €275,000 ex tax

attached image of specs .....

not sure how this will go upwind though ???


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Cobra 41*



Sternik said:


>


You can definitely see the resemblence with the Delphia 24:









Don´t know how the D24 sails, maybe it´s a good concept. But I haven´t seen it on a lot of other boats, so maybe not a big hit...?!

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Vendee Globe is on! Started half an hour ago!!!





Replay Vendée Globe 2012-2013 (Départ en direct... _por VendeeGlobeTV_

The race promises: None of the ones that are leading were favorites

1 Jérémie Beyou - Maître CoQ
2 Arnaud Boissières - AKENA Vérandas
3 Louis Burton

It seems the tracker is not yet working?


----------



## PCP

*Re: Cobra 41*



Mr W said:


> You can definitely see the resemblence with the Delphia 24:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don´t know how the D24 sails, maybe it´s a good concept. But I haven´t seen it on a lot of other boats, so maybe not a big hit...?!
> 
> //Mr W


Thar's the same designer.

I understand why he was the inverted curve of the hull, I mean from the outside on the top what I don't understand, on a fast boat, is the sharp transition from the bottom to the side of the hull.

Take a look at the A27 that has a similar concept but a rounded transition. It seems to me that have the boat sailing over a chine (I mean an almost 90º angle) is not a good idea in what regards drag and that is what happen when the boat sails upwind, close to the wind.



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

rockDAWG said:


> These are nice boats love the clean lines. No sure if anyone knows more about them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rock, I like this one even if it seems a design with some years, not so much the other.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Sapwraia said:


> Paulo, hi - great thread ! The Moody 41 has probably deserved to sell more hulls than it has; but the show / demo boats all have the optional high gloss timber interiors and oval portlights which must put off a few people.
> 
> The other thing which afflicts most twin wheeled yachts under 13 metres is that you can't lie down on the cockpit seats because they terminate at the aft end with a solid moulding for the steering pedastal. At least with a single wheel you can stretch out - even if your legs hang slightly over the end. This is an important feature for me - especially in warmer climates where on-deck sleeping is a happy option ! I tested the Moody 41 for this at the Southampton Boat Show and it failed miserably, which is a backward step on a yacht this size.
> 
> Thoughts ?
> 
> Cheers, Robert


That's simple: I agree on both counts Of course twin wheels offer a lot of advantages even in what regards sailing, giving a much faster and easier access to all winches.

Regarding having space to lay down, I use it not only for that but also to sail/sleep at night when I am voyaging and have to solo sail the boat.

But even if many 41fts with that size and twin wheels have that problem, I checked that out that in the Salona 41 (one week sailing in the boat) and it has a much bigger space on the cockpit bench. Not really enough for me (with 1.90m I have space but the feet are out) but I had planed to have them make a foldable small teak extension just to have support for the feet. It seemed easy to do and the guys from Salona would do it.




























By the way they have a new graphic look on the Salona 41 that I like, have a look:



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Sapwraia said:


> New Ovni Evolution 43
> 
> Not sure that this new yacht has been discussed yet ? Has been talked about by Ovni within the industry for a couple of months now and has just been listed on their website but no other details there yet. Looks like their version of the Sense 43 - maybe Ovni's time has come now that chines have gone mainstream !
> 
> cheers Robert


Now, this is really interesting, thanks for posting.

Almost everybody knows that OVNI are great voyage boats but their design was getting old and they, besides being good boats, were not interesting boats in what regards design.

It has changed know. First with the evolution 52 and know with the 43.

(If you have more, or bigger images of the 43, please post them)

I am sure these boats will have a much better performance downwind and even downwind because finally alubat is installing naca profiles on both the board and the twin rudders. They talk about this to be a kind of Cigale centerboarder and that are just good news.

Quite a revolution going on OVNI, well they call it evolution

The 52:





































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Jesus!

*With 25 minutes to go to the 13.02 start Betrand de Broc announced his return to the pontoon at Les Sables d'Olonne to fix a small hole in the bow of his boat Votre Nom autour du Monde EDM Projets. De Broc collided with his Zodiac Rib after a wave pushed them together.*


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Tracking is working!

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking


----------



## Sapwraia

Ovni Evo 43 layout - hopefully better size (cutting from pdf )


----------



## Sapwraia

Ovni Evo 43 hull profile


----------



## Sapwraia

Ovni Evo 43 sailplan


----------



## PCP

Sapwraia said:


> Ovni Evo 43 layout - hopefully better size (cutting from pdf )






























Thanks.

A lot of boat for the money, if we consider that it is an aluminium boat and a very interesting one for long range cruisers, the ones that stay many days offshore.

Do you know if part of that big aft storage compartment can be accessed from the outside to store a dinghy? That would me make envious.

You can have a beautiful boat but with the dinghy on top of it is not beautiful anymore and in many cases the dinghy increases a lot the eventual danger to go forward in bad weather.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

*Gentlemen make your bets please*!

If the kid that is leading now does not break the boat, I bet on him. A rookie and a new guy on the Open60. He has already made an amazing recovery: Missed the start, had to go around all other boats and pass the line again...well, he overtake them all François is his name:

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Another one heading back for repair. This is not starting well

*"At approximately 17:45 local French time, Marc Guillemot heard a loud bang, likely from a collision. At the time, he was sailing under a main and headsail.

He has decided to head back to Les Sables in order check on how serious the situation is.

The skipper on board Safran has reduced the sail area and is currently sailing at 4 knots and is some 50 miles from the Sables d'Olonne.

Further information will be provided once the boat has been checked upon arrival into the Sables d'Olonne."*

Reducing sail and going at 4K? It seems Marc is not telling everything.


----------



## PCP

*Open 60 - Vendee Globe*

A visit to Bernard Stamms Open 60 Cheminées Poujoulat, the only one designed by Juan K. Some interesting features:






Regarding the Vendee Globe I had said that the veterans should take care with the kid, well:

*On the 0800hrs UTC ranking on the first full day of racing the significant change at the head of the fleet is that François Gabart has nearly doubled his lead over the course of the morning, now over 10 miles ahead of Vincent Riou on PRB.
*

It seems that the right course would be one that catch the Portuguese trade winds (and I can tell you that it is windy here). They are all going for it

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

Regarding Mark and Safran, I was right. Something very serious was going on:

*Marc Guillemot arrived in the port of Les Sables this morning (Sunday) at 0300hrs local time. His shore team immediately examined the boat and saw that the keel had broken off under the waterline.
*

A blow like that is bad for the moral of any guy. I wish him the best. Jesus those guys should already have solved that problem and made a stronger keel. Marc had finished the last Vendee Globe making thousands of miles with the boat without a keel (lost it offshore Brasil). Now making an entire Vendee Globe without a keel is too much even for Marc A great guy, a great sailor. I am really sad with this. He deserved better luck this time.

....


----------



## PCP

*Incredible stuff*

Don't try willing to risk their lives and boats in such an incredible rescue?


----------



## robelz

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> *Gentlemen make your bets please*!
> 
> If the kid that is leading know does not break the boat, I bet on him. A rookie and a new guy on the Open60. He has already made an amazing recovery: Missed the start, had to go around all other boats and pass the line again...well, he overtake them all François is his name:


The boat's designer is the same one that made Safran... Ouch


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



robelz said:


> The boat's designer is the same one that made Safran... Ouch


 Yes, but I had said: "If the kid that is leading now *does not break the boat*"

Yes I know that those boats are fast but also the lightest and some would say the more fragile. We will see. Last year Safran (Marc's boat) remained in one piece till Brazil. Maybe it is possible to get home with one in one piece, I don't Know.

After an hard night:

Briton Sam Davies is just one of the skippers who found the variable breezes tough, with big squalls bringing very heavy rain. She reported that she had seen everything from seven to more than 40 knots of wind during the night.

They will have another bad night today going along the Portuguese coast in one of those days I am happy not being there. There is an yellow warning here and I guess they will have 40K winds, gusting winds.

Well guys how about those bets?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## dsullyec1

I'm so smitten with these boats, it's ruining me now as we keep looking at ones we can afford. Thanks for sharing though...these boats are gorgeous.


----------



## Faster

*Re: Incredible stuff*



PCP said:


> Don't try willing to risk their lives and boats in such an incredible rescue?


Impressive efforts.. quite the amount of damage so it appears they spent some time bouncing off the rip rap breakwater/beach.. If they were incapacitated by the rope around the prop I still wonder why they were unable to sail the boat into the lee of the harbour....


----------



## PCP

dsullyec1 said:


> I'm so smitten with these boats, it's ruining me now as we keep looking at ones we can afford. Thanks for sharing though...these boats are gorgeous.


Thanks. Dreaming is for free...and even if few can own them today, one day these boats will be used boats with an affordable value for many.

Changing subject and looking at some great sailing and great images, on Trophée Sémac, on Marseille. With the Mistral blowing they did not cancel the races and 13 boats went out to race with winds that have blown over 40K. It seems that those that went out knew that they could do it safely. No casualties and great racing


----------



## PCP

*Re: Incredible stuff*



Faster said:


> Impressive efforts.. quite the amount of damage so it appears they spent some time bouncing off the rip rap breakwater/beach.. If they were incapacitated by the rope around the prop I still wonder why they were unable to sail the boat into the lee of the harbour....


I guess than in high winds there are many that trust more in their engine than in their sails... and to use sail in high winds it is necessary to be used to do it...just gessing

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Classics: Folkboat*

*The Nordic Folkboat is a small sailboat, rigged as a sloop. The design of this boat was the result of a competition held by the Scandinavian Yacht Racing Union in 1942, who were hoping to create an easily sailed and low cost boat. The competition produced no outright "winner " but, taking the best features of a number of the entries received, the organizers commissioned professional designer Tord Sundén to create a craft that met the goals of the design competition. The resulting boat went on to become an international favorite of sailors and still endures more than 70 years after its design. The first Nordic Folkboat was built in Göteborg in Sweden, and as of 2007, more than 4000 Nordic Folkboats are still sailing around the world.*






Well, not classic traditional boats as many think, but a racing boat from the 40's anyway a nice design and.... they still race











Well 4000 thousand boats sailing and they are still made in a shipyard in Pärnu, Estonia. They have made 900

They say about the boat:

With this ship you can sail either sportily or comfortably. At the weekend you can sail with your friends on the race track, or take your family out on a fabulous day trip. Due to the large cabins, the safe cockpits and a lot of new equipment possibilities, the ship is perfect for seafarings and regattas. Your boat can be ready to sail, for either Regatta or Competitions, in 30 minutes! It is completely sea worthy and has been tested in bad weather.

And they give a 7 year warranty on the boat

A 7 year guarantee speaks for itself! A folkboat is top quality and a MUST-HAVE in the world of sail boats. If you like classic yachts then a folkboat is the boat for you. The value of a folkboat remains stable, based on the above average quality and a high re-sale value. If you desire, the maintenance costs can also be reduced to a minimum, as being on land and with winter storage, the home drive saves a lot of maintenance.

Folkboat - the new classic

I have to say that it kind of makes sense and the boat is beautiful. Take a look:


----------



## Marsvinet

Yes, the folkbåt is a beauty.

However, it has a modest sail area, and the performance is in general "vintage"

The trick is finding a boat that has classic looks, modern performance and accommodation in one hull.

The Moody 41 is a good mix of these conflicting requirements.


----------



## PCP

*Classic looking boats*



Marsvinet said:


> Yes, the folkbåt is a beauty.
> 
> However, it has a modest sail area, and the performance is in general "vintage"
> 
> The trick is finding a boat that has classic looks, modern performance and accommodation in one hull.


Yes, that would not be a problem. There are several ones, however the price can be a problem

I am not saying that the price is not fair but obviously a boat that is made in a small series and that has to look very good will always be an expensive one, if compared with the main market of produced boats. Are you interested in having one, in that case in what size, or just like them?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

First big option in what regards the weather:

*Today will likely see the first real strategic choices needing to be made and the question is where the fleet will split. A small but active depression is forming to the NW of the fleet and is well established to the NE of the Azores by Tuesday afternoon and evening. This offers the opportunity to get west, accepting the first tax of having some initial brisker upwind conditions but subsequently there is the obvious benefit of fast sailing in 25kt NW'ly winds at the back of the low And in general west usually is best*

It seems that half of them are going to one side (near Canaries) and the other by the other side (more near Açores).

I would beat on near Canaries: Less pressure but more favorable winds. I guess that is because I would not like to go close to the wind in 20, 25K winds for several days and I guess that on more clement conditions you will get less tired and more able to drive the boat at 100%.

Check out the weather button on the upper left to see what I mean. It seems François Gabart is choosing what I would chose. One more reason to like the guy  Vicent Riou, the veteran that is second seems to have choose the other option. It will be interesting 

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking


----------



## Marsvinet

*Re: Classic looking boats*



PCP said:


> Yes, that would not be a problem. There are several ones, however the price can be a problem
> 
> I am not saying that the price is not fair but obviously a boat that is made in a small series and that has to look very good will always be an expensive one, if compared with the main market of produced boats. Are you interested in having one, in that case in what size, or just like them?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo,

One of the things that have dawned on me during these posts with you, is that "hand made in Italy" never goes hand in hand with "affordable" So, reality will probably dictate me to give up on this particular boat.
When it comes to the truly beautiful modern classics like Spirit, i find them to much of a fetish and not "real boats" in the sense that it needs endless work to keep up appearances, and you will allways be afraid of damaging it.

The Calypso, i find interesting because it brings light displacement together with a roomy 2 cabin interior in a single handed friendly 36 feet. The end result is doomed to look a bit tubby but i am not the type to give away practicality for looks.

In the real world where i will have to buy the boat and do my own maintenance, "classic looks" will be the first to give, so right now, i look forward to more news on the Sydney 37 GTS


----------



## rockDAWG

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Clip hélico Votre Nom autour du Monde _por VendeeGlobeTV_


This is a great video, Paulo. Thanks.

1. Can you tell me more about this boat and the captain? 
2. He did not tether at all when sailing solo and walking around on the deck
3. What are those two side wing posts for? They both seem attach to the foot of the mast.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

****, I am really sad with what happened to Marc and even more with what happened to Kito. It is supposed the motorboats to keep away from sailing but I guess this one was fishing so it is Kito fault. The important thing is that he had to retire from the race and it is the second one do have to do so. Stupid accident






*"I am cursed. The Vendée Globe is not for me. " That was the conclusion of the bitterly disappointed Kito de Pavant this Monday afternoon, despairing at the harsh reality that his challenge to complete the Vendée Globe is, again, very prematurely over.

For the second successive edition of the race this charismatic, twinkle eyed skipper from Port Camargue in the Mediterranean is having to withdraw.

His Groupe Bel suffered serious damage when he was hit by a fishing trawler whilst racing in 11th place, around 45 miles off the Portuguese coast about 75 miles NW of Cascais at around 1000hrs CET this morning.

De Pavant described it as a 'stupid accident' grabbing some minutes of sleep when he was awoken by a bang. With damage to Groupe Bel's outrigger - the deck spreader which supports the rig - losing his bowsprit and sustaining a hole in the hull and deck he announced his retirement this afternoon.

The Groupe Bel skipper's second attempt at the Vendée Globe effectively ended a little more than 68 hours after the start, a cruel reprise after he lost his mast within 24 hours of the start of the 2008-9 race.

He is unhurt and was making to Cascais where he was expected to arrive this Tuesday evening.

" All of that energy spent over months and years to prepare, all this is terrible. There is no bowsprit, there is a hole in the front of the hull but the boat itself is safe.To leave the Vendée Globe again, after just two days of racing, is not even possible, not even possible." De Pavant told his team this afternoon.*


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



rockDAWG said:


> This is a great video, Paulo. Thanks.
> 
> 1. Can you tell me more about this boat and the captain?
> 2. He did not tether at all when sailing solo and walking around on the deck
> 3. What are those two side wing posts for? They both seem attach to the foot of the mast.


Sure. The boat is a 2007 one, deigned by Finot/Conq, and had already made one Vendee Globe with Armel Le Cléac'h, finishing second.

Archives Yachts - Multiplast

Bertrand de Broc is the skypper and had already entered two times (1992 and 1996) on this race, being forced to retire on both occasions. On the last one he raced the boat most the keel and capsized only two days before completion of the circumnavigation

I and many others still remember those incredible images of him stitching his own tongue in the middle of the Indian Ocean after being badly hit by the boom

It is not really a top racer in the class and has not any victories (some podiums) but has some impressive victories in crew races namely the very difficult and highly considered Tour de France: Victories in 2004 and 1998. It is also a Figaro racer and has 2 second places and a third on Transats, the last one in 2010. Of course, it is a hell of a sailor, as most, if not all, these guys are.

Regarding this edition he had to come back after hitting a boat at the start of the race, repaired and is on again, after losing 12 hours. It is the last but I believe not for much time

Regarding the movie, yes Open60 at speed are incredible boats and it seems incredible that one lonely guy can control such amount of power.

This is Marc on Safran, the guy that had already to retire after losing the keel. He should be devastated.






Those two poles give more support to the mast since the angle of the shrouds is much larger and regarding being tethered, they use it when they consider the weather is bad but I guess that bad weather for then is not what is for us bad weather

Regards

Paulo


----------



## millerandy

Like rockDawg, I was very curious about whether he was tethered. Seemed like conditions warranted it (but I'm just a lake sailor (Allatoona Dawg!) I thought maybe I was just missing the tether somehow.

Andy


----------



## Barquito

IMHO, you should be clipped in any time you are on the boat by yourself, out of swimming distance of shore.


----------



## PCP

Barquito said:


> IMHO, you should be clipped in any time you are on the boat by yourself, out of swimming distance of shore.


Hum, that is me and you and even so when I sail solo I only clip myself when I leave the cockpit with some wind and bad weather, not at all times for sure. I guess this depends how sure you are and what confidence you have in the safety of what you are doing.

Do you pretend to tell how to sail safely to guys that solo circumnavigated several times, made many sail transats solo, always racing and are here to tell the story?

When you are racing a tether takes much of your mobility. They only use them when they think there is a risk and what is safe for them it would not be safe for me and I guess, you.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## dsullyec1

I know absolutely nothing about racing, but to watch it fly through the waters is a beautiful thing.


----------



## mikel1

Thank you PCP! I feel better now . . .


----------



## PCP

*Open 60*

Ok, Vendee Globe and all let's have a look at some of the boats (and skippers) to understand what is this all about, I mean regarding boats for the job.

Those hugely powerful boats are a major influence in modern design of cruising boats precisely because they are designed to be easy to sail since they are sailed by a lonely sailor, that has to sleep fom time to time. Easy to sail, stable and fast boats is what all cruisers want...well, not so powerful maybe


----------



## Capt.Redbird

I test sailed the new TARTAN 4000. She is a pretty awesome performance cruiser. Where is she on this list? And the C&C 101? The US is still building a few cool boats...


----------



## PCP

Capt.Redbird said:


> I test sailed the new TARTAN 4000. She is a pretty awesome performance cruiser. Where is she on this list? And the C&C 101? The US is still building a few cool boats...


You are welcome and even if this thread is not a list and everybody can post about a boat that he or she thinks it is interesting (according to the rules that were posted on the first post), the boats you mention were already posted on this thread. You are an year and a half late

*The C&C 101*: posts *1945; 1946; 1947.*

*The Tartan 4000*: *1350; 1974; 1976; 2011; 2023*.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-135.html#post742138

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-195.html#post802611

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-198.html#post804883

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-202.html#post807798

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-203.html#post808525

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Big tactical game on the Vendee:

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

The race is not only about sailing well and having the fastest boat. It is also about strategy.

Let me point out another big difference with the Volvo Ocean Race: All know that one is a crewed race without scales and this one is a solo one without scales but some don't know another big difference: on this one they cannot have any outside help in what regards navigation neither they can receive any customized weather or routing information.

This is a huge difference. Not only one single guy has to sail the boat by himself as he has to choose by himself the best way in what regards wind/sea and overall speed. This is one of the things that makes this race great and those guys some of the best and more complete sailors on the planet. We have seen recently Groupama whose crew included many solo sailors, rookies on the Volvo, beat the best professionals in what regards crewed long distance races and Veterans on the Volvo. This is how good these guys are

So the tactical game is a main game on this race and it is at play right now:

I have said that François and others were choosing a course near the Canaries While Vincent was choosing a course near Açores. That's confirmed. Let's see how the game turns out. More wind and sooner to Vincent, more distance on the right direction and less wind for François.

François is just a rookie and a kid compared to Vincent without much experience on Open60 (at least solo) but probably the best of the new guys that come from the Figaro class that is also a solo boat that has transats on its racing program, so he knows a thing or two about rooting 

Very interesting to see how to turns out this chess play between the Kid and the Veteran.

....


----------



## G1000

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> ****, I am really sad with what happened to Marc and even more with what happened to Kito. It is supposed the motorboats to keep away from sailing but I guess this one was fishing so it is Kito fault. The important thing is that he had to retire from the race and it is the second one do have to do so. Stupid accident


I just wonder how this could occur. Kito used AIS with 10 miles warning and most likely fishing boat had no AIS at all. But all Open 60 boats have radars and I have no single idea why Kito haven't used one for early warning?


----------



## G1000

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Let me point out another big difference with the Volvo Ocean Race: All know that one is a crewed race without scales and this one is a solo one without scales but some don't know another big difference: on this one they cannot have any outside help in what regards navigation neither they can receive any customized weather or routing information.


Not sure if your are right about VOR and customized weather or routing information  Check this article: Stan Honey - Sailing's Master Navigator "Well, in most ocean races they restrict you to receiving data that's free. So that means basically what you can use is US government data. The US government, because of our Constitution, says that once we paid for something as taxpayers, the government can't charge for it again. So the US government makes the global forecast system data, it's called GFS, available for free to everybody worldwide. So that's largely the data that you use during the race, because you can get that for free." Francois Gabart probably is using customized MaxSea pro version and no doubt these guys are not using auto routing


----------



## PCP

*Elan 400*

We have already posted about the Elan 400 and even compared it with the previous model. I have said that the boat had to be lighter, even if they didn't gave the weight, on account of the smaller sail area. Now they had given more information and yes, the boat is lighter with 7500 kg, considerably lighter than the previous model (8300kg) but I was hoping for an even lighter boat.



















That is a similar weight to the Salona 41 (7450 kg) that is half a meter longer. Not very impressive, however the ballast ratio is a good one, with a B/D ratio of 33%. That, a torpedo keel and 2,40m of draft will make it a very powerful boat. In fact I believe that the ballast they give is not the one for the 2.4 draft keel, otherwise the ballast ratio would be 36% and not 33%.

Specifications Elan 400 
LOA (hull length) 11.95 m
Total length 11.95 m
LWL (length at waterline) 11.26 m
Width 3.87 m
Draft Standard 2.40 m
Weight 7.5 t
Ballast / share 2.7 t / 33% 
Mainsail 51.56 sq.m.
Genoa (107%) 37.6 sqm
Gennaker 135 sq.m.
Motorization 40 hp 
CE design category A (ocean)

The boat is, like the other Elan, a Rob Humphreys Yacht Design & Elan Design Team and has an interesting stability curve with an AVS over 120º but most of all with an huge righting moment at 90º of heel, almost the same RM the boat is doing at 20º:

http://www.elan-yachts.com/img/yachts/e400/ELAN_400_stability_curve.pdf

The speed polar is also a nice one, but I guess that about the real speed we will only know or in the race course or through the ORCI file.

http://www.elan-yachts.com/img/yachts/e400/ELAN_400_polar_diagram.pdf

The interior seems to be a plain one but comfortable:



















I guess I will have a better idea when I see the boat in Dusseldorf

Some would say that this boat is just a bigger Elan 350 and I guess they will be wrong. This boat is a very different boat in what regards hull design and particularly B/D ratio that is much bigger on this boat. This is a much better overall boat and probably a slightly worst downwind boat.

Take a look at the Transom design and the water line regarding the two boats. Can you see the difference?


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



G1000 said:


> Not sure if your are right about VOR and customized weather or routing information  ...


Take a look at Groupama sailing team:

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Groupama sailing team

The navigator is Jan-Luck Nélias and is not aboard the boat, it is part of the team but not part of the crew, or at least it seems to be that way. I cannot find the rules.

Here an interview with him:

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | A cautionary tale from navigator Nélias

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> The navigator is Jan-Luck Nélias and is not aboard the boat, it is part of the team but not part of the crew, or at least it seems to be that way. I cannot find the rules.


Strange, other teams have navigators onboard. Maybe rules were changed, but the article says "Then before the race, you can pay for data, so there are lots of different models we use, and lots of different contractors and consultants. I'll contract with people like Ken Campbell at Commanders' Weather, to be a professional consultant, and I'll pay for data from places like the ECMWF [European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts] model. But once the race starts, then you can only use free data that is publicly available to everybody."


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



G1000 said:


> Strange, other teams have navigators onboard. Maybe rules were changed, but the article says "Then before the race, you can pay for data, so there are lots of different models we use, and lots of different contractors and consultants. I'll contract with people like Ken Campbell at Commanders' Weather, to be a professional consultant, and I'll pay for data from places like the ECMWF [European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts] model. But once the race starts, then you can only use free data that is publicly available to everybody."


Yes, but he says:

"Well,* in most *ocean races they restrict you to receiving data that's free".

http://yachtpals.com/stan-honey-4177

I had a link for the VOR rules but they have removed them. If you cab find them I will be interested in finding out

Regards

Paulo


----------



## G1000

16.4 Meteorological information may only be obtained from the OA and publicly broadcast radio or publicly broadcast satellite transmissions. Meteorological information from the OA will be provided mainly as data in GRIB format and updated twice daily and available as required through race control. Additional information may be supplied such as surface analysis charts, satellite images. Failure of the OA to have available, or of Boats to receive, meteorological information shall not be grounds for redress. This amends RRS 62.1(a).

16.6 Unless specifically permitted in NOR 16.4 the receiving of e-mails from FTP-to email, Internet-to-email, WWW-to-email or email subscription services (paid or unpaid) is not allowed.

16.7 While Racing: sat-phone communications are not permitted to or from the Boat, unless: the OA, RC or a duty officer has pre-approved the call. Mobile telephones shall not be used and if carried on-board shall be sealed in a container or similar.

VOLVO OCEAN RACE 2011-12 NOTICE OF RACE: inc Amendment 12


----------



## PCP

*Vor*

Yes, it seems you are right even if I wonder about this: *"Additional information may be supplied such as surface analysis charts"* I guess this can give plenty of insight because a surface analysis of the same situation can be made to point in several directions.

Anyway I cannot understand how the Groupama navigator is not part of the crewmaybe a mistake but is hard to understand why they have not corrected in all those months.

Even so it is completely different to have a specialized navigator on a team of eleven than to run all the boat by yourself and make also the navigation and that means a lot of time and concentration when you have to be attentive to the immediate needs of the boat. Difficult stuff I would say

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Big tactical game on the Vendee:
> 
> Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking
> 
> Not only one single guy has to sail the boat by himself as he has to choose by himself the best way in what regards wind/sea and overall speed.
> 
> So the tactical game is a main game on this race and it is at play right now:
> 
> I have said that François and others were choosing a course near the Canaries While Vincent was choosing a course near Açores. That's confirmed. Let's see how the game turns out. More wind and sooner to Vincent, more distance on the right direction and less wind for François.
> 
> François is just a rookie and a kid compared to Vincent without much experience on Open60 (at least solo) but probably the best of the new guys that come from the Figaro class that is also a solo boat that has transats on its racing program, so he knows a thing or two about rooting
> 
> Very interesting to see how to turns out this chess play between the Kid and the Veteran.
> 
> ....


Well, 1-0 to François. Vincent played badly. But Armel and Stamm played right and I believe that they will gain some mile to François. who would have said, Stamm, the Swiss pissing the Fench

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

..


----------



## bjung

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Well, 1-0 to François. Vincent played badly. But Armel and Stamm played right and I believe that they will gain some mile to François. who would have said, Stamm, the Swiss pissing the Fench
> 
> Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking
> 
> ..


Stamm is going to be one to watch, but I think Sam Davies will climb up in rankings as more miles are covered. She proved during the last VG that she can keep the boat moving fast without breaking too much. 
What exactly happened to Burton, another collision?? I don't get that, considering AIS and radar??


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



bjung said:


> Stamm is going to be one to watch, but I think Sam Davies will climb up in rankings as more miles are covered. She proved during the last VG that she can keep the boat moving fast without breaking too much.
> What exactly happened to Burton, another collision?? I don't get that, considering AIS and radar??


Yes, that is sad:

*La direction de course a reçu cette nuit à 3h10, heure locale, l'appel du bateau Bureau Vallée. Louis Burton signalait avoir percuté sur le flanc bâbord un chalutier a environ 400 Nm à l'ouest de Lisbonne position 38° 22N ; 18° 10W. Il était en veille dans le cockpit et son radar et AIS étaient allumés.

At the time Bureau Valley was about 400 Nm west of Lisbon. He was asleep in the cockpit with his AIS and radar both active. At the time he was making around 18kts with 32kts of SW'ly wind which was making visibility limited.

Burton quickly turned to a NE'ly, downwind course, securing the rig. He found a shroud damaged about 1.8m off the deck. The skipper is fine and is waiting for sunrise (around 0930hrs CET) to make a more complete assessment of the damage to the port shroud before making any decisions.*

You know this only confirms what I thought about AIS as a tool to avoid boats: It is a good tool if you are going to cross an ocean where most boats have AIS but pretty worthless on coastal areas (at least here) where most boats you find are small fishing boats that have not AIS.

The first collision with Kito with a Portuguese fishing boat made almost mo way to the press here but it looks like that is not a trawler as reported but a traineira that is a much smaller boat normally a wooden one.

This last collision (with Burton) was more far away from the coast and I don't know more than what was said by the organization but I assume that it was probably a bigger fishing boat.

In what regards the race, well they are all in turbo speed and I have to say I don't understand how François with less wind than Vincent can be faster





Armel Le Cléac'h et Banque Populaire direction Sud _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Regarding Sam Davies it is a pity but she is racing with a 3th generation boat (2004) that can be considered slow compared with more modern boats. On the last race she had a comparatively better boat. Anyway, as you said it's strongest point is good seamanship, avoidance of risks and a very good overall performance. Probably she will make it to the end while many will retire from the race.





Sam Davies se protège des grains _por VendeeGlobeTV_





François Gabart et Macif passe le front _por VendeeGlobeTV_

regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Bill Dixon*

We talked recently about Bill Dixon the American designer of Moody sailboats. His cabinet have designed not many production sailboats but regarding big custom sailboats that's another story. Rock has posted recently one of them. Let's have a better look at that boat and some others.









































































This is a small one (65ft). A small production sailboat and it is the one that has lines more similar to the classic Moody. It has a great interior that makes a sharp contrast with the very modern interior designed by a German firm.


----------



## dsullyec1

Wow, what truly beautifully designed boats. If I had a lot of money, I'd have Bill Dixon make mine. I'd want the windows lower though, so I could look out. They are something to behold. We were amazed at the size of the sales on these larger boats. Can we crew on these? Pleeeeeese?


----------



## rockDAWG

Paulo,
My Goodness, this is beautiful 








I did not know it was Bill Dixon. Recently I feel in love with the layout of Moody 40C in 1990 area.


----------



## PCP

*Comet 100*

Yes that is a beautiful boat but look at the big brother of my boat,designed by the same NA (Valliceli), The Comet 100 :




























But I guess I will be happy with this one:






Just kidding, I am happy with my "small" Comet 41










.....


----------



## HMoll

Funny, these Vendee news, with fishing boats "marring" the race, or Groupe Bel being "hit by a fishing boat". I wonder what the fishermen are saying about the "solo sailor bastards at it again". Fun to watch, but I feel no pity for the fallen. Sorry, it is a "half stupid" or daredevil sport, especially when the participants and viewers are aware of something fundamentally wrong, like sailing @ 18kts while sleeping. Remember Camper avoiding that whale? Guillermot was just woken up by a bang the other day! Exciting to follow, I'll admit, like watching wingsuit jumpers. There's always a chance for seeing one brush the cliff! Human nature. Although not cool if the sailor killed or hurt a mammal...or fisherman, right?Hey, maybe ok if they're Eco-Powered! Cruisers, don't try this at home! Do not sail solo if you will need to sleep!!


----------



## hannah2

Hi all,

New member here and I just want to thank everyone who has posted on this thread,"interesting sailboats." 

I've read most of this thread over the months it has been on the site and enjoyed the conversation of where the direction of our modern cruising sailboats are headed for now and in the future. It is good to have this discussion especially for us here in the United States as it seems to me we have a tremendous void to fill. But in reading this thread I see an awakening of cruisers and of designers of things hopefully to come. I personally feel that we Americans on the most part are stuck in our cruising glory days of the late 60's, the 70's and 80's. There are many great boats of this period and I have owned some like the Mason 44. But if we are going to have good used boats in the future for our kids and grand kids to sail we must move forward with new designs now. 

My wife and I are lucky enough to have one of these new designs being built, "Boreal44." We look forward to the changes that have come about over the years and sailing/learning will be wonderful experience. We also know that every cruising boat is a compromise even with all the new modern designs there will be compromise.

Thank you again for the interesting sailboats thread, wonderful reading that shows the many directions the industry is headed and hopefully a strong market once cruisers understand the concepts of modern cruising boats and how they have originated.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe - Collisions*



HMoll said:


> Funny, these Vendee news, with fishing boats "marring" the race, or Groupe Bel being "hit by a fishing boat". I wonder what the fishermen are saying about the "solo sailor bastards at it again". Fun to watch, but I feel no pity for the fallen. Sorry, it is a "half stupid" or daredevil sport, especially when the participants and viewers are aware of something fundamentally wrong, like sailing @ 18kts while sleeping. Remember Camper avoiding that whale? Guillermot was just woken up by a bang the other day! Exciting to follow, I'll admit, like watching wingsuit jumpers. There's always a chance for seeing one brush the cliff! Human nature. Although not cool if the sailor killed or hurt a mammal...or fisherman, right?Hey, maybe ok if they're Eco-Powered! Cruisers, don't try this at home! Do not sail solo if you will need to sleep!!


Yes, I agree that is unacceptable but also unheard of. I have followed many solo races without any collision and now two on one? That's weird.

I bet the organization is going to make some safety alterations, maybe to have a mark to have them more offshore. Regarding solo sailing the big problem are areas with a big transit and those are very rare on their way. The worse one is offshore the Portuguese coast: Not only they pass close and that means that they cross a fishing area as Portugal is the western part of Europe so lots of cargos pass close.

Part of the problem is the speed: Sometimes I solo sail at night, take a 20/30m nap, look at the radar, another nap and I guess that is safe enough: I can spot a small fishing boat at 6K distance and that means an hour, plenty of time to avoid it. That is not the case at 18K. At that speed with a 30m nap you can hit a boat you never saw on the radar.

Of course you can set the alarm on the radar but on areas with plenty of boats the alarm is full time giving alarm, even if the boats are going in directions that do not mean a threat to you, so you tend to put the dam thing of to get a god nap.

I am not sure if Marc hit anything. The clank could just be the keel breaking of. They have talked about metal fatigue. Mammals are as vulnerable to sail boats has they are for any other kind of fast boats and that includes cargos that vastly outnumber sailing boats. Maybe they are not used yet to see a more silent boat coming so fast, but they sure can feel it. It will be a question of time before they start to avoid them, or at least I hope.

*
"Jean-Marie de la Porte, project leader within the Safran group, explains, 'For the time being, we don't know what caused the keel on Safran to break, as we were completely satisfied with it for 20,000 miles. We are not excluding any possibility, a design fault, a problem with the manufacture or an external cause (a shock)? We are currently setting up an investigative committee with experts from the Safran Group, who will be trying to identify the origin of the damage. In order to be completely open, the results will be published. As we have done with each technical problem we have encountered on the boat, the conclusions of this assessment will be sent to the IMOCA class and to other teams with the goal of improving the safety and reliability of the boats.' "*

http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Vendee-Globe---Safran-out-of-the-water,-keel-removed/103790

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Boreal 44*



hannah2 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> New member here and I just want to thank everyone who has posted on this thread,"interesting sailboats."
> 
> I've read most of this thread over the months it has been on the site and enjoyed the conversation of where the direction of our modern cruising sailboats are headed for now and in the future. It is good to have this discussion especially for us here in the United States as it seems to me we have a tremendous void to fill. But in reading this thread I see an awakening of cruisers and of designers of things hopefully to come. I personally feel that we Americans on the most part are stuck in our cruising glory days of the late 60's, the 70's and 80's. There are many great boats of this period and I have owned some like the Mason 44. But if we are going to have good used boats in the future for our kids and grand kids to sail we must move forward with new designs now.
> 
> My wife and I are lucky enough to have one of these new designs being built, "Boreal44." We look forward to the changes that have come about over the years and sailing/learning will be wonderful experience. We also know that every cruising boat is a compromise even with all the new modern designs there will be compromise.
> 
> Thank you again for the interesting sailboats thread, wonderful reading that shows the many directions the industry is headed and hopefully a strong market once cruisers understand the concepts of modern cruising boats and how they have originated.


You are more than welcomed. WOW!!! the Boreal 44 is a great voyage boat. As you probably know we have posted about the boat one an a half year ago:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...2341-interesting-sailboats-97.html#post710320
























Do you have taken knowledge of the Boreal 44 here? I guess it is not a well known boat in the US.

Please keep us posted about your new boat, I am sure that many will be interested, me too

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Sapwraia

Talking about yachts by Vallicelli reminded me of one that was a WOW when first launched in the late 90's : Oceano 54 by VR Yachts. I don't think they built many - maybe too expensive from a yard not well known outside of Italy ?

Elegant styling and a good compromise on hull volume by todays standards. Freeboard not excessive, nice large aft cockpit with drop down transom, interesting layouts and the Open 60 style pilot house still looks unique

The VR yachts website still has 2 pages with full details (see under "VR54" and then link to images) - can't yet post web links here & full size images as need 10 posts !


----------



## robelz

What happened to MACIF? 8 knots slower than le'Cleac and Stamm and lost about 20 miles...


----------



## PCP

*Vallicelli VR 54*



Sapwraia said:


> Talking about yachts by Vallicelli reminded me of one that was a WOW when first launched in the late 90's : Oceano 54 by VR Yachts. I don't think they built many - maybe too expensive from a yard not well known outside of Italy ?
> 
> Elegant styling and a good compromise on hull volume by todays standards. Freeboard not excessive, nice large aft cockpit with drop down transom, interesting layouts and the Open 60 style pilot house still looks unique
> 
> The VR yachts website still has 2 pages with full details (see under "VR54" and then link to images) - can't yet post web links here & full size images as need 10 posts !


Yes, expensive no doubt with a beautiful interior. 15 years after the boat still looks slick:





































Already a twin wheel design with the winches at easy reach of the helmsman 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*



robelz said:


> What happened to MACIF? 8 knots slower than le'Cleac and Stamm and lost about 20 miles...


Nothing special, he is finally paying for that more eastern option. Click on options and wind and have a look at the next hours: He is the one in the worst position...and Vincent the one in the best

http://tracking2012.vendeeglobe.org/en/

He describes the situation:

*Ça va toujours bien à bord de Macif. On est dans un vent plus qu'instable et irrégulier donc je ne vais pas fanfaronner et dire que c'est simple. Au niveau de la mer, ça commence à se ranger, on a vu bien pire mais c'est surtout le vent qui tourne dans tous les sens. Il y a 20 minutes, j'ai eu droit à un 360.*

He says that he has very unstable wind rounding in all directions and he says that 20m ago lost control of the boat and made a complete 360º turn.

I am very curious to see how many miles is Vincent going to recover. It looked like he had taken a bad choice...well, I am not sure now

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Nothing special, he is finally paying for that more eastern option. Click on options and wind and have a look at the next hours: He is the one in the worst position...and Vincent the one in the best


Umm, I already thought so, but I wondered wether the difference in wind and waves makes such a difference. Let's wait for the night...


----------



## Sapwraia

Paulo, thanks for posting those images for the Oceano 54 ! I believe that dark blue one in the photo is on the market for EUR250k ! (lying Italy); given the used market today that's not entirely surprising but a good example of the headwinds facing the premium new boat market. 

At 54 feet perhaps not a great comparison, but that's half the price of a new Hallberg Rassy 412 (incl. essential gear & tax) and we've all seen immaculate 10-15 year old yachts - well built, timeless lines and maintained/updated appropriately at very attractive prices. 

That's a dilemma, esp. if one has EUR500k to commit to the "right" yacht but is equally happy to use half the budget. The "premium" new (production) boats seem like an attractive proposition - until you step aboard !


----------



## Sapwraia

It's been an interesting experience to physically inspect a number of new models after having seen online photos, plans and various magazine reviews. The Hallberg Rassy 412 is one being praised by media as the benchmark high-end 40 footer. It ticks many boxes and is the product of a well respected yard & designer. Bob Perry's review in Sailing Magazine (online) summed it up well : "difficult to fault". Some aspects of the styling are not perfect, but I could probably live with it. However, once onboard and inspecting the details I was underwhelmed in the context of a EUR500k yacht.

This is a complex 40 footer in terms of equipment & systems, although componentry is first class. Down below it's detailing simply isn't the same as HR's of the past : panel gaps in the joinery & cabin sole are quite variable in places and the underside of berth-side shelves is not well finished (something you don't notice when standing but do when lying down). It all feels like a high quality kit-set; the question is whether that's good enough at this price point. The hull lining in the saloon around the hull port looks like white painted timber slatting but is actually a flimsy plastic moulding (even the HR rep was surprised when I pointed this out).

On deck the cockpit is very spacious, however not so good for the helmsman. The promotional photos give a clue with the helmsman looking like he's perched right on the transom; and this is actually the case - space between wheel & transom is not generous; and the transom panel (this lifts for stern access) is not very wide - approx 400mm - and when sitting on it you're quite conscious of the stern lifelines across your back. All not helped by the large moulded "command console" which forms part of the pedastal - way too big on a yacht this size and will take a lot of electronics to fill it.

This was disappointing because I was expecting the HR412 would justify the price. A new Malo berthed nearby was much less "production yacht" in terms of interior fit & finish (but surprised to see they still screw the teak deck veneer - why put hundreds of holes in a water tight cored structure ?); and the same weekend I looked at a couple of 10 year old Sweden Yachts - a 42 and 45 - the interior finish was still immaculate - in a different league to the HR412 (although overall design is a different generation).


----------



## Sapwraia

The X-Yachts XC series are logically optimal in many respects but seem to lack the emotional "X" factor one looks for in a yacht (no pun intended) and X-Yachts don't have the long-term value retention characteristics of HR despite being a similar price.

The new Allures & Ovni Evo's look interesting and well priced.

And so back to the distractions of the used market - never has there been so much choice at wide discounts to the new market, and for yachts over 13 metres the "new build" replacement cost is accelerating rapidly. 

For example I recently looked at a 1990 47 footer - beautiful med displ cruiser from a top semi custom yard, 15 hulls launched, timeless design - cost new : EUR300k equiv. (a lot of money in 1990); asking EUR225k 18 mths ago; "asking" EUR150k since mid 2012 and little interest - very sound, original & well maintained but needs EUR100k (max) of updates. Replacement cost EUR1m !

These are all high quality problems of course


----------



## hannah2

When I was looking for a new boat we did consider the HR. One thing that disturbed me in the design was HR's desire to push out the interior for more comfort and bigger berths. In doing so there was little locker space in the cockpit area. No large lazerette to store fenders, lines, even an outboard for those long passages where having outboard fastened to the stern stanchions is not wise. Our Boreal has a well thought out large locker in the stern that we can even put the non rib inflatable in. The Boreal also has a large bow locker for storage of sails,lines and fenders that is only accessed from the deck. This is possible because chain locker is just in front of the mast for better weight distribution. Both the lockers mentioned are water tight also. HR's are beautiful boats but did not fit our life styles of long passages where keeping deck clean is important. 

There are so many things to consider in a good blue water cruising boat. Seems so many companies now are totally into interior design more than the important design concepts that keep us safe where we spend most of our time while on passage, outside keeping watch and reefing sails.


----------



## PCP

Sapwraia, I understand what you say about older Halberg-Rassy but simply today Rassy are much better sailing boats. Not sure a X yacht has less value as used than a HR. Regarding design I have already said I think the XC42 is a better design that the HR 412, that is also a good sailing boat:

a recent video from a boat test on Yacht magazine:

*MOVIE:*

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Sch%C3%B6n...-412-im-Test/acf6c90a22f67adf30ac1eb214ca2be9

I agree that today it is possible to have great prices in boats with few years but an used boat is not a new boat and really it is all about money: New ones are better than old ones; there is nothing like owning a brand new boat; used boats are a better deal and offer more value for the money.

I agree that the Sweeden Yacht 42 is a very good boat, a beauty and has an impeccable finish...but it was still more expensive that the HR I still love that boat

Here one of their last boats before going bankrupt, the 54:






Beautiful boats but I guess too expensive even for luxury boats.

hannah2, I agree that today's boats are more geared towards enjoying life and sail than to voyaging and that's simply because there are not many sailors that use them to do long range voyaging and what is adequate for that is not the best recipe to have a boat to enjoy sailing or to live at the marina or at anchor in a nice warm place.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



robelz said:


> Umm, I already thought so, but I wondered wether the difference in wind and waves makes such a difference. Let's wait for the night...


Well, that's night, at least here and François is going to be overtaken by Armel and Stamm. Funny because there is a big difference in speed and with the data they give us for wind on the zone it seems they have the same wind. Obviously not

Sam Davies has overtaken Tanguy La Motte

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

last day they had some fast sailing. Just look at this photo:










Burton is trying to come back in time to repair the boat and get back to the race.

Also some great footage here:





Day 5 highlights - Wednesday, November 14, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_





6e jour de course - Jeudi 15 novembre _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Zeeman 41*

We have already talked here about this aluminum beauty:




























Yacht Magazine has just tested the boat. The movie is very interesting and reinforces my impression that this is a great boat besides being a beautiful one

*MOVIE:*

Jedem Seemann seine Zeeman - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

,,


----------



## hannah2

PCP,
Nice to see a proper galley in a new boat. Lots of good hand holds and interesting interior night lights along the soul. What is the keel design? 

If we were coastal sailing I'd be proud to own that boat.


----------



## PCP

*?*

Isn't it a beauty?










Do you know what is?


----------



## PCP

*Re: Zeeman 41*



hannah2 said:


> PCP,
> Nice to see a proper galley in a new boat. Lots of good hand holds and interesting interior night lights along the soul. What is the keel design?
> 
> ...


----------



## G1000

*Re: ?*



PCP said:


> Isn't it a beauty? Do you know what is?


Xp 33


----------



## PCP

*Re: ? XP33*



G1000 said:


> Xp 33


Yes!!!

What a little baby!










I guess this is a boat to compete with the A31

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

*Re: ?*



PCP said:


> Isn't it a beauty?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what is?


It sure looks nice! It'll be interesting to hear what the critics has to say about it!


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Sam Davies has overtaken Tanguy La Motte


Sadly, Sam won't be overtaking anyone in the near future. She broke her mast and is out of the race 

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



Mr W said:


> Sadly, Sam won't be overtaking anyone in the near future. She broke her mast and is out of the race
> 
> //Mr W


Yes, there has been a catastrophic loss of boats, 2 for collision and two for breaking. That's bad and they did not even reach the equator

* "It was quite difficult conditions because I had just gone through the cold front and I had a really cross sea and to start with not much wind and the wind was just starting to establish itself around 25-30 knots and I had the right sails up for those conditions and it had been pretty tricky and then, as I was expecting, we had some big rain squalls coming and the first rain squall came through and I had up to 40 knots, so I bore away and I was easing the sheets from inside the boat and easing the sheets and bearing away to calm it down. I was mentally preparing myself, as soon as the squalls had finished to go out and take the third reef for the night, because it was at nightfall when this was going on. And that is the way I had been sailing for the whole race, is quite conservatively and taking a reef, especially at night when you can't see the squalls coming, so I was getting ready to my foulweather gear on and that's when the squall was just finishing and the wind was dropping and the boat jumped off the top of the top of a wave and that's when I had the impact and then the boat came upright and suddenly there is no more wind in your rigging.

The hard thing is that when the mast falls down, it falls to leeward so the boat is being pushed on top of the mast so I could hear the mast rubbing against the hull and down the whole side of the hull and under the boat, so I knew that it could damage the hull if I was unlucky, so the main thing was to close all the watertight bulkheads in case it did get pierced so I put my survival suit on because it is the best way to go out and check everything on deck and in the time that this happened and the boat turned around, as I expected it would, so that the mast was to windward of the boat and acting more like a sea anchor but the worst thing was the really big waves and breaking wave and they were pushing the mast and boom into the deck and into the hull still and everything was moving a lot, like around 2m, and there was still a lot of wind in the mainsail attached to the boom, so every time there was a big gust the boom was lifting off the deck and into the water. To start with I didn't want to go outside in case the boom got caught by the wind or in case there was a big jump, so I wanted to wait to see how the whole situation as going to establish itself before I took any chances to go on deck."*


----------



## rockDAWG

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> * "It was quite difficult conditions because I had just gone through the cold front and I had a really cross sea and to start with not much wind and the wind was just starting to establish itself around 25-30 knots and I had the right sails up for those conditions and it had been pretty tricky and then, as I was expecting, we had some big rain squalls coming and the first rain squall came through and I had up to 40 knots, so I bore away and I was easing the sheets from inside the boat and easing the sheets and bearing away to calm it down. I was mentally preparing myself, as soon as the squalls had finished to go out and take the third reef for the night, because it was at nightfall when this was going on. And that is the way I had been sailing for the whole race, is quite conservatively and taking a reef, especially at night when you can't see the squalls coming, so I was getting ready to my foulweather gear on and that's when the squall was just finishing and the wind was dropping and the boat jumped off the top of the top of a wave and that's when I had the impact and then the boat came upright and suddenly there is no more wind in your rigging.
> 
> The hard thing is that when the mast falls down, it falls to leeward so the boat is being pushed on top of the mast so I could hear the mast rubbing against the hull and down the whole side of the hull and under the boat, so I knew that it could damage the hull if I was unlucky, so the main thing was to close all the watertight bulkheads in case it did get pierced so I put my survival suit on because it is the best way to go out and check everything on deck and in the time that this happened and the boat turned around, as I expected it would, so that the mast was to windward of the boat and acting more like a sea anchor but the worst thing was the really big waves and breaking wave and they were pushing the mast and boom into the deck and into the hull still and everything was moving a lot, like around 2m, and there was still a lot of wind in the mainsail attached to the boom, so every time there was a big gust the boom was lifting off the deck and into the water. To start with I didn't want to go outside in case the boom got caught by the wind or in case there was a big jump, so I wanted to wait to see how the whole situation as going to establish itself before I took any chances to go on deck."*


Damn, these men and women are special, a different breed.

Besides the skills and physical condition, just wonder how much money needed to get on these type of sailing adventure ???


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



rockDAWG said:


> Damn, these men and women are special, a different breed.
> 
> Besides the skills and physical condition, just wonder how much money needed to get on these type of sailing adventure ???


Not so much and less then some other top championships. Don't forget that on other top racing classes, I mean professional sailing, you have to pay a crew of eight to eleven the all season while here the sponsor as only to pay to one guy.

Regarding the other circumnavigation top race, the VOR, this one is a cheep one. That's why you have so many more boats here.

*"Sam Davies is safe but out of the race after dismasting on Thursday night. She has switched on her engine and is heading to Madeira, 100 miles away, at about five knots. The weather is being kinder to her and she was expected arrive on Saturday morning. ...

She was near the centre of a depression with a 35 knots of wind and treacherous cross seas and was preparing to put a third reef in the mainsail, when she heard and felt the mast go.

"It was quite difficult conditions because I had just gone through the cold front and I had a really cross sea," Davies said. "I was getting ready to my foul weather gear on and that's when the squall was just finishing and the wind was dropping and the boat jumped off the top of the top of a wave and that's when I had the impact.

....

Davies, who finished fourth in the last Vendée Globe, waited until the wind had eased before cutting away the mast and rigging and with them any chance of finishing her second Vendée Globe.
*
...





Sam Davies après son démâtage/ after her... _por VendeeGlobeTV_

*"Soon after Davies abandoned, Louis Burton, the 27-year-old Parisian, announced that he had abandoned and headed to La Coruña. He was limping back to Les Sables d'Olonne stuck on a starboard tack after colliding with a fishing boat on Wednesday at 0300hrs (French time). But the damage to the port shroud of his boat, Bureau Vallée, and consequent instability of his mast, meant that his passage through the Bay of Biscay with the current conditions would have been nearly impossible - especially with the deadline of needing to re-start the race by Tuesday November 20.

......

Javier Sansó reports that he has been sailing for 32 hours without his mainsail. He was approaching the Canary Islands yesterday afternoon, where he will shelter in calmer conditions while he climbs up his 100ft mast to recover the main halyard. It is a hazardous operation even with a crew and even in calmer waters - imagine climbing a hundred foot ladder balanced on a rocking horse (don't try this at home).

"Today has been pretty entertaining preparing all the material to go up the mast tomorrow in the shelter of the Canary Islands," Sansó, the only Spaniard in the race, said. "I just need some sheltered water without waves for a few hours and I think I'll be back again 100%. I've been able to sleep a full 2 hours - a real luxury!"

......

Sansó will attempt to climb his 100ft mast in order to assess the damage and recover the main halyard, so that he can hoist his mainsail again."*

Jesus these guys are having bad luck, really bad luck

....


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

The attention has been drawn to these accidents but on the head of the race it is hot, really hot: Armel is now the leader but François and Stamm are really close. The two next days will be easy, full throttle ahead and on this game I think we will be François at the lead again... then follows the big game, the doldrums and there is where huge wins or losses are to be made.

Let's enjoy the drag race and wait for the big strategic game ahead the last one was won by Armel and Stamm was the second best. speed is not enough to win this race

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking


----------



## PCP

*Incredible and sad*


----------



## Mr W

*Vestas Sailrocket*

Tweet from the VESTAS Sailrocket 2 team, 16 November 2012, 17:34:13:

"That's it... We've smashed the arse off it! 59 knot average."

Not long before they break 60 knot average!

//Mr W


----------



## motorcat

New movie taken , before we came to La Spezia for EYOTY`s jury test . This day we sailed TNT trough 15 knots (upwind) to 25 knots (downwind ,in up to 2.5 m waves) from Imperia (to LaSpezia) in 9 hours


----------



## motorcat

motorcat said:


> New movie taken , before we came to La Spezia for EYOTY`s jury test . This day we sailed TNT trough 15 knots (upwind) to 25 knots (downwind ,in up to 2.5 m waves) from Imperia (to LaSpezia) in 9 hours


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vestas Sailrocket*



Mr W said:


> Tweet from the VESTAS Sailrocket 2 team, 16 November 2012, 17:34:13:
> 
> "That's it... We've smashed the arse off it! 59 knot average."
> 
> Not long before they break 60 knot average!
> 
> //Mr W


Humm! Why they don't say that they have beaten the world record!!!!????

What I have heard was that the "Vestas Sail Rocket" went to a top speed of 61.92 knots but that over a distance of 500 meters the average speed was 54.08 knots, not enough to beat the existing world record.

Anyway the speed record is (or was) at the hands of a kit surfer: Rob Douglas 500-meter average speed of 55.65 knots.

Anyway the sad new is that Hydroptere had lost the sponsor. I guess that had to do with the fact that they had taken the boat all the way to America just not to find the right condition for a trans pacific record, not even an attempt. I guess that the management in what regards publicity returns was just a bad one I hope they can solve that because it is on that boat I am interested not really in Vesta or kite surfing.

Well, a sail world record is a record and I am interested in that so, have we or not a new sail speed record?

They need to update this anyway

500 Metre Records

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New RM 1360*



















The same hull but a different cabin and interior. *The last model was from 2009.*

Specifications RM 1360
LOA (hull length) 13.60 m
LWL (waterline length) 12.82 m
Width 4.50 m
Weight 9.4 t 
Draft Fin keel 2.45 m
Draft twin keel 1.95 m
Ballast Fin keel 2.95 t / 32%
Ballast twin keel 2 x 1.55 tons / 33%
Sail area 112 m2
Engine / Drive 75 HP / saildrive

The boat looks nicer than the previous one and I am sure that, like the previous one is a great and fast voyage boat, but that is not the point. I guess these guys and I mean boat manufacturers are heading to a suicidal path:

I mean, a substitution of a model each 3 years on a company that is not even a mass production builder? or at least a big remake?

This will make the previous model to lose a lot of value in the used market and has this is what all the major brands are doing it leads to a lot of boats with less than 5 years at incredible prices on the used market and the number of buyers that are buying them instead of a new boat is increasingly bigger as it is lesser the number of the ones that are buying new boats.

It is hard to justify to buy a new boat when in average 1.5 tears later the boat is not new anymore and you have a new model on the narket

I understand why they are doing this: It has to due with the exposure a new boat gets with boat tests, magazine covers and all and in fact most boats of a new model are selling now on the first years and then they drop because some other brand has a hot new model.

But this is ridiculous, it is at long term bad to the new boat market and brings the price of the boats up.

The older version, the 1350:











....


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Well, Javier had successively managed to retrieve the main halyard. Scary stuff, at least for me

*"I had to go to find some sheltered water in Tenerife to be able to go up the mast without too many waves. The problem was that once situated behind Tenerife there was absolutely no wind at all and a real swell. So after two frustrating hours waiting and trying to get closer in to land, I made an attempt to go up the mast with quite a large swell, the boat almost drifting and without any kind of steering."

"Each time I went up a metre I was like a sack of potatoes swaying from one side to the other. When I got to the top, 30 metres above the boat, I have to admit that there was a really beautiful view and I found a way of not being shoved all over the place; a good thing since I was really at a limit with the strength I had left. I managed to fix the line to the track that was there happily waiting for me at the top of the mast."*

and then

*"At 2000hrs the boat was tip-top to get back into the race again 100%," he said. "The problem was that my sheltered spot in Tenerife had me trapped until 0400hrs in the morning when I was finally able to move out towards the south and then gybe west."*

At the head of the race it is like I said a drag race but contrary to what I thought it is Armel that is coming with flying colors and Stamm has even manage to overtake François while Vincent and Jean-Pierre are closing in. Interesting stuff

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





8e jour de course - Samedi 17 novembre _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

For the ones that had missed it from the start, a very good resume of the race...and in English


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Jesus, another one with big problems





Jérémie Beyou parle de sa quille 2 _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Jérémie Beyou parle de sa quille _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Last night at 2100 UTC, Jérémie Beyou skipper of Maître CoQ, lying seventh in the Vendee Globe, noticed that there was an issue withthe hydraulic ram, operating his yacht's canting keel. As Beyou explains in the audio clip below the arm on the ram has broken where it attaches to the keel head. The French skipper has taken advantage of his proximity to the Cape Verde islands where he intends to take shelter while he attempts to find a solution.

When Beyou warned his crew shortly before midnight, he was making five knots and was 70 miles from the archipelago, where he should arrive by midday today.

You can hear Beyou telling the story (in English)

http://www.thedailysail.com/files/editorial/12_11/beyou.jeremie_181112_uk.mp3

Vendee Globe 2012 update 18 Nov am | The Daily Sail


----------



## PCP

*Keels - Vendee Globe*

I guess that these problems with the keels could be avoided in a great extent and the skippers of these boats share responsibility for not having more safer systems.

I have read recently that most of the NA that design these boats agree that it was better in what regards safety all boats sharing the same keel canting design. That way not only cost would come down as the information received from so many boats with lead to a rapid improvement in the system reliability.

I don't know if it is the sailors looking for an advantage, or the sponsors that lead to a non acceptance of this suggestion but the fact is that they are not taking a great advantage on this: Safran, the one that lost the keel had the most advanced one, made all of titanium and that did not prevent him to be one of the first to lose it.

I guess that in this case the organization (and IMOCA), with the support of boat designers, should take measures to implement that, at least till a greater degree of reliability is achieved in the system design.

....

Regarding the race, has Jean says: *It is war time*

*I haven't slept much last night, I spent a lot of time at the helm with my spinnaker up and I'm sure Mike (editor's note: Golding) did the same. It's war time!!! I've just finished a sails change, I haven't had a minute of break. I've taken my t-shirt off, I'm so sweaty.*

Look at them:

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

The first 6 are really close with Armel still leading but losing distance to François that now is second again. The rhythm is just mad and it is a good thing they are coming to the doldrums were it will be less physical and much more a chess play, one of the big ones. Let's see how they play

....


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Polar 55*

Remember this classic beauty:










I said that the builders offer a 7 years warranty on that boat and that is unheard off in what regards sailing boats. Well, the market of small boats is dyng out and what is selling are bigger boats so this guys with an injection of German capital are making a bigger boat, a 55ft

The boat is very modern and I would say more than that, beautiful even if the interior does not make my style. The boat has an high tech construction, is very light (10 000 kg) it had an huge B/D ratio (41%) specially if we consider that it is not a especially narrow boat (4.22m) and that the ballast is on a torpedo at the end of a 2.45m keel.

How boy, this is a stiff,very powerful, fast boat and one that can go to almost any place since that keel can go up and give a draft of only 1,55m. It should be a very seaworthy boat, at least it has an huge stability.























































Regarding the interior what I don't like is the style. I have to admit that the interior distribution and the way the keel box was hidden is very well made. Anyway, style is a question of taste and the design has quality. If the boat is as well made as the little one I would not be to worried about that, Jesus, I like this boat and I hope it will be as good as it will look. I hope to see it in Dusseldorf.




























The interiors look better here anyway but that open table should look better:

http://www.polar-shipyard.com/pdf/POLAR55_Download_210x210_FINAL.pdf


----------



## hannah2

PCP,

She is very beautiful and I'm sure a pleasure to sail across oceans, even for couple. No question you can get 200 plus miles a day out of her. Can you or anyone tell us why so many modern cruising boats today do no use dorades for ventilation?
Is it a question of form over function? Ventilating a boat be it in the high lats, tropical, even at the dock while the boat is locked up is so important. I noticed also that there are no drip ledges around the salon cabin windows. I don't know a boat that the windows and hatches do not sweat no matter how well the boat is insulated. To me that means lots of dripping all over the seats and nav station. Not putting such an incredible design down but I noticed that the hand holds below and in the companionway appear to be nil. Coming down a companionway I like the feeling in ruff seas of not only having good hand holds but interior walls close so that your upper body can brace against them when moving up or down the latter. Also that table has got to go. 

But a great example of where the upper end of cruising boats are going, especially in Europe.

Cheers.


----------



## PCP

*Polar 50*



hannah2 said:


> PCP,
> 
> She is very beautiful and I'm sure a pleasure to sail across oceans, even for couple. No question you can get 200 plus miles a day out of her. Can you or anyone tell us why so many modern cruising boats today do no use dorades for ventilation?
> Is it a question of form over function? Ventilating a boat be it in the high lats, tropical, even at the dock while the boat is locked up is so important. I noticed also that there are no drip ledges around the salon cabin windows. I don't know a boat that the windows and hatches do not sweat no matter how well the boat is insulated. To me that means lots of dripping all over the seats and nav station. Not putting such an incredible design down but I noticed that the hand holds below and in the companionway appear to be nil. Coming down a companionway I like the feeling in ruff seas of not only having good hand holds but interior walls close so that your upper body can brace against them when moving up or down the latter. Also that table has got to go.
> 
> But a great example of where the upper end of cruising boats are going, especially in Europe.
> 
> Cheers.


I guess that I am a bit responsible for you not finding grab holds. I have said that the pictures of the interior were bad and should have posted better pictures. I find the grab holds adequate. The table is also only ugly when open. You can see the grab holds on these photos:



















Regarding this boat and yours, being both great boats the optic is completely different. If we were talking about cars we would be talking about a Toyota land cruiser and a Porshe Panamera.

In what concerns drip ledges I don't see them on maxi yachts either. I assume that they consider that on this type of luxury boats the AC will be a constant, so no dripping.

Regarding dorades, these are fast boats and with speed I imagine that a lot of water will pass over the boat and if the dorades were there, into the dorades. I have no doubt the boat is ventilated but not by a non mechanic system like a dorade but by mechanic ones that will probably be more efficient even if at the cost of some energy. This boat has the new Ion lithium mastervolt batteries, a big alternator and they are so confident on the boat energy electric potential that they even propose it with a ceramic electric stove

Mastervolt launches new 12-volt Lithium-Ion battery | Mastervolt

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

Thanks for the better photos. On a 55 foot boat of this stature I'm sure you can do much for ventilation. I have fallen in love with the nav station chair in the photo. 

I'd looked into the lithium-ion batteries and they might be in our first change of batteries down the road. We have too many new systems to deal with all at once on starting up a new boat. But I think in the long run the lithium ion battery is here to stay and already is cheaper than gels when you look at the longevity. But we will give them time and see how they work out for those more daring than us.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Are these guys mad or funny? :Arnaud Boissières time for the morning bath





L'heure de la douche pour Cali / Shower time for... _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## Sapwraia

*Polar 55 - Alliage/Azzuro range*

The Polar looks very nice with some good ideas; seems very similar in design & concept to the Alliage & Azzuro swing & lifting keel yachts - which are from the board of a well known designer. I think aluminum makes more sense if you're going the shoal draft route. I get nervous taking a glass boat anywhere too shallow where there's anything to potentially graze the gelcoat/antifoul/epoxy barrier coat !

just noticed the 45 foot concept at end of that Polar 55 brochure. Still a bit short on info re the "composite construction" of these yachts.

Re 7 year warranty - we had a 10 year hull warranty on a larger J/Boat (built in the mid 90's in the USA) - don't know if they still do that. Only caution is that these long-dated warranties are really just a marketing tool and can be very difficult to claim on - esp when the yacht is in a different country to the company giving the warranty; and also when the builder is a different legal entity to the marketing company who is party to the sales contract !


----------



## PCP

*Re: Polar 55 - Alliage/Azzuro range*



Sapwraia said:


> The Polar looks very nice with some good ideas; seems very similar in design & concept to the Alliage & Azzuro swing & lifting keel yachts - which are from the board of a well known designer. I think aluminum makes more sense if you're going the shoal draft route. I get nervous taking a glass boat anywhere too shallow where there's anything to potentially graze the gelcoat/antifoul/epoxy barrier coat !
> 
> just noticed the 45 foot concept at end of that Polar 55 brochure. Still a bit short on info re the "composite construction" of these yachts.
> 
> ....


Similar to Azzuro from alliage? Well, Azzuro are great Alumium boats with also a lifting ballasted keel, not a centerboarder like the OVNI or Boreal with all the ballast inside the boat and in that regard they share the same concept and are also beautiful but there are some remarkable differences (besides one being an aluminum one and the other a carbon? one):





































This is the Azzure 53, it weights 13 500kg, has a 3000kg bulbed keel with a draft that can go from 3.0m to 1.2m and carries 130m2 of sail.

The Polar 55 weights 10 000kg, has a ballast of 4100kg on a more efficient torpedo keel with a max draft of 2.45m, a minimum of 1.55m and carries 104m2 of sail.

I agree with you when you say that an aluminum boat will be better to stand on the sand, but even if I would not do that with the Azzure except on an emergency, he can do it and the Polar can't. It has a small draft but it cannot go to the beach and even if he could I agree that it is risky to have a heavy cored boat standing on its hull on a beach.

The Polar is also much lighter especially considering that it is a bigger boat and has a bigger ballast even if we have to discount the difference in draft that is not compensated by the more efficient Polar torpedo keel. I guess that all considering that difference in draft is good for less 600 to 1000kg and that will give not such a big difference but a considerable difference in generated RM. Even if we consider a 1000kg saving in weight (that I find too much) the B/D ratio for the two boats will be of 30% (Azzure) and 41% (Polar).

Also in what beam is considered there is a considerable difference with the 53ft boat having 4.82m and the bigger one 4.22m, meaning a different hull design that is related with the difference in B/D.

Looking only at those dimensions I would say that I would prefer clearly the Polar 55 but.... I would say that I would be very cautious in what regards buying a Polar 55. That weight seems too good to be true, or to give an adequate warranty of solidity. For instance the new XP 55 ( a light boat) weight 16500kg with more draft and 6 300kg of ballast. If we consider only the boat without keel, the Polar 55 weights 5900kg and the XP 55 10 200kg. That is an *HUGE* difference.

This means that the Polar 55 has to be an all carbon boat (they don't say nothing about it) and built like a racing boat and even so that interior does not look like particularly minimalist, not to mention the teak decks.

To put things in perspective, the Open 60 that was raced by Sam on this Vendee Globe (2004) weighs about 9000kg (and it is not the heavier boat racing) and has a 4.5m draft. Ballast is a well kept secret but I would say that they go from 3000 to 3500kg. Even considering the bigger number the weight of the boat without keel will be of 5500kg.

So a carbon 60ft racing boat (without keel) weights 5500kg, without furniture, teak deck, heavy furling systems, and a cruiser boat with all those items with 55ft weights 5900kg? That sounds miraculous to me and I would expect such boat to be built (at least the hull) by one of the very specialized builders that build race boats, not from a firm that used to build a relatively heavy classic small boat.

To make some comparisons with other well know Carbon/epoxy boat that proved reliable, the Shipman 50ft ( a 2001 design) weighted 13 200 kg and the current boat, the 63ft weights 16 500kg.

Shipman 50 boat for sale

Shipman: Shipman 63

Bottom line, it is possible but it would be a technical achievement and I would wait till some boats are in the water and sailing without problems, before buying one, but I am not rich and I think like a poor man Well the same was said about the Shipman 50 comes to the market (it was 2002 European boat of the year). Many if not most doubted about their reliability and the boat proved to be a great boat.

Regarding Alliage, they are making aluminium boats for almost 20 years, have a very solid reputation and I think that the possibilities of having any problem (specially a big one) with an Azzure versus a Polar are strongly on the Polar side.

In fact I was very interested on the Azzuro when it cone to the market back in the mid of the last decade. They started with a 42ft boat:










I remember that they retired quickly this boat from the market and I remember to have talked about that with the owner of the company (or the director) about it: Why? He explained that on that type of boat the price was not proportional to size and that a 42ft boat would be necessarily an expensive boat and difficult to sell on the 42ft market (I do remember that it was an expensive boat, much more than an OVNI). It was after that I have beginning to design my own aluminium dream boat (an aluminum boat with a lifting bulbed keel) to see if having it built directly by a shipyard (on Holland or South Africa) it would be more affordable (I have posted the design somewhere on this thread).

So as you can see I am a big fan of this type of design, I mean and Aluminum boat with a lifting bulbed keel but I can tell you also that it will always be a very expensive boat

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And there they are, at the doldrums (It is derived from dold, an archaic term meaning "stupid", and -rum(s), a noun suffix found in such words as "tantrum")-WikiPed.

So they are on that stupid place were the wind does not blow. The French call it"le Pot au Noir" literally a pot with a black content. It was used by old sailors to describe a black and dangerous situation. If this pass is difficult to boats that need 3K wind to move, imagine that on ships that needed at least 10k to move

*"The top six boats have entered the Doldrums and from making over 15 knots 24 hours ago, the leader, Armel Le Cléac'h (Banque Populaire), was down to 1.8 knots in the hour before the 1600hrs (French time) ranking. ...

The Intertropical Convergence Zone, known better as The Doldrums or le Pot au noir, as the French say, will be the first test of the skippers routing skills. The compression in the fleet has been immediate with from Francois Gabart (Macif), closing to 26.8 miles and Thomson in sixth winning back 50 miles in sixth, 62.4 miles behind. But it is the time that it will take to get south-west rather than miles that count now. The first through to the trade winds on the other size will pull away quickly.

The Doldrums are a lottery with conditions changing by the hour as the skippers try and jump from cloud to cloud. But the thunderstorms, that are to be avoided at all costs and can appear as quickly as they disappear, greeted Le Cléac'h as he arrived in the zone this morning.

The Doldrums had looked less active the day before but that could be the nightmare scenario as it might mean the leaders face the beginning of a cycle. But it remains guesswork for meteorologists and the boats could emerge on Tuesday morning."*

They all closed on Armel and Alex joined the front pack. Alex is in 6th place and at only 62Nm from the leader. Great race out there

I have looked to the meteo information for the next days here on the top left:

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

and it seems to me they are in deep s..t

If I was there I would not know what was the best course. I guess I just would have tried to sail south. These guys are brighter and I hope they come with different and more creative options. Let's see. It is in situations like this that they can win a lot of miles, I mean if they are not following the same options.

Well for now they are all following the same path I hope some changes soon.

...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vestas Sailrocket*



Mr W said:


> Tweet from the VESTAS Sailrocket 2 team, 16 November 2012, 17:34:13:
> 
> "That's it... We've smashed the arse off it! 59 knot average."
> 
> Not long before they break 60 knot average!
> 
> //Mr W


Yes, it seems that they have beaten the record and that average was during a 500m course. They are just waiting for the WSSRC ratification. They peaked at 63K. That's crazy and the voice of the guy on that machine sounded excited but also scared






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Alex Thomson on Hugo Boss*

We know now that Alex had big problems...and even so managed to repair at speed, joined nonetheless the front pack.

Well, Chapeau Alex, well done, I am impressed

I hope it sticks!!!





L'incroyable réparation d'Alex Thomson _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## tdw

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Are these guys mad or funny? :Arnaud Boissières time for the morning bath


Bit of both ? Hey is that guy really short or is there really that much headroom under the overhead/dodger setup ?

Nice boats Paulo. Polar is very nice but that galley tucked away up front would get pretty hot and sticky.

Azzure ticks a lot of boxes but I'm afraid both of them are way too much boat for me.

You know, I've long thought that when the time comes to downsize back into a day sailor then I might just end up in a FolkBoat.


----------



## Mr W

*Pogo 12.50*

Well, if this is as fast they say it is... then it´s fast!





''

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pogo 12.50*



Mr W said:


> Well, if this is as fast they say it is... then it´s fast!
> 
> ...
> 
> //Mr W


That's fast...but it does not seem they are going at 20K even less at 25K

Strange choice of sails: Only main? If the wind increases they will be in trouble. They will not be able to lower the main without turning to the wind and turning to the wind only with the main it will be very difficult even with the engine helping. Maybe it is different with a Pogo but I doubt it.

Anyway we can confirm that a Pogo 12.50 is very easy to sail and even sailed in a "strange" way and fast the boat remains stable and safe.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Armel is out of the "pot", is doing 7.4K and will get more wind soon. The others on front pack are averaging 5.5K and they seem almost out. Complicated night for the front pack and the winners are Armel that is going away, Vincent that is second now and Alex that while doing a big repair on the boat comes to 3th.

They are all very close: Armel is 26Nm away and increasing the distance from the 2th to the 6th is only 1.6Nm.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Cartographie


----------



## PCP

*Crabber Pilot cutter 30*



tdw said:


> Bit of both ? Hey is that guy really short or is there really that much headroom under the overhead/dodger setup ?
> 
> ...
> 
> You know, I've long thought that when the time comes to downsize back into a day sailor then I might just end up in a FolkBoat.


No these boats can teach a thing or two in what regards sea protection to VOR boats. Let's hope that the new VOR, that will be the same to everybody, will take that in consideration because I think it was only by chance that we didn't have any serious accident this year: A massive wave entering directly by the bow at 30k and sweeping all the deck is a very dangerous thing for the guys that get it directly in their chests

Yes, that overhead has almost standing weight. Some boats have even bulbs to achieve standing weight and this one even permits to lock forward without being hit violently by a cold shower.










....

Regarding traditional boats I understand very well what you mean. As you know, for having the privilege to sail my boat in unknown nice places In the summer months I leave it abroad and I miss sailing in the winter. I guess that for the winter I would not mind to have a well protected nice and cozy boat not necessarily fast (I would only be sailing locally) and curiously I would not mind to have the boat I wanted to have when 30 years ago I sailed my traditional boat. Yes it is a boat that it is made with some minor alterations for a long time and based on famous and seaworthy traditional boats, these ones:











I know very well how much work and money cost the maintenance of one of these babies and I am grateful that there are guys that keep them in shape (I have done my share). These are lovely boars to be held by a community of several sailors or a club, not a boat to be owned by a solo sailor.

But then there is the one I was talking about, the Crabber, an heavy fiberglass boat that does not look like a plastic boat and has a lovely interior. It was with this one I dreamed about. It has an inconvenient, it was and it is expensive for the size














































































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe/The Sunday Times Golden Globe Race*

Dedicated to all that think that nothing fundamental changed in the last 50 years in sailboat design.

44 years separate this edition of Vendee globe from the first non stop race. Let's have a look at the "The Sunday Times Golden Globe Race " and to its winner and to the boats.






The winner and the first man to circumnavigate non stop was a British and a great sailor Robin knox- Jonhston, now Sir (very British). The Man is well and you can read his monthly articles on Yachtingworld Magazine. 38 years after his first circumnavigation race, In 2006 with 67 years of age, he completed another around the world solo race in the VELUX 5 Oceans Race (with scales).

He was the only one to finish that first non scale solo circumnavigation but two more sailors become famous for different reasons: Bernard Moitissier and Donald Crowhurst. We will talk about them. Now it is the time for the winner: Robin knox- Jonhston


























Robin Knox-Johnston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## hannah2

Thanks for the great clips. Much has truly changed over 40 years, many of those changes have come about due to the brave men and women racing around the world, they have made sailing much more enjoyable and safer for all of us.

Enjoyed the horn clip, watched it with a good glass of single malt and a peanut butter sandwich. Maybe in my next lifetime I will do the horn, then again maybe before then.

Cheers


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Out of the black pot, drag race again and on that there are few better than François that comes charging: He is second and slowly recovering regarding Armel that is keeping the distance to all the others. Vincent is now third.

Here it is Armel, at speed and celebrating the Equator passage (I guess he is celebrating more to be out of the doldrums). Since old days superstition ranked always high on sailors and even if I believe that Armel really does not believe that it is funny to see the order of its celebration in what regards cheers and champagne: First, champagne to the sea, then, champagne to the boat and then to himself Not an accident but a tradition. Vicent had done the same: He did not forget the boat or the sea.

Years ago drinking whiskey with an old Irish sailor (in land) I saw him quite deliberately let some drops our of his cup to the ground. I was curious an I asked why he was wasting good whiskey. He smiled and said, you never know, that's the Devil's cut. In don't believe he believed that but well, as he says...we never know

Lets have a look at Armel's Equator celebration:


----------



## G1000

*Puma Mar Mostro*

These Puma Mar Mostro guys are hilarious!






















p.s. PUMA Volvo 70 For Sale Anyone intrested?


----------



## opc11

*Re: Moth, best off 2012*



PCP said:


> On the left you have the list of builders...and it can be home made
> 
> The International Moth Class Association
> 
> Now, do you mean that you never saw this movie:


Amazing how much more sail area the 49er had and still couldn't keep up w/ the Moth. Very cool!


----------



## PCP

*The mast*

Seeing all those guys around the mast and all the work they had to sort it out, makes me wonder how a woman and not a big one, was able to do all that alone and get free of the mast and sails of his Open60 in 20K winds and a considerable sea. Hats off for Sam Davies


----------



## Faster

*Re: The mast*



PCP said:


> Seeing all those guys around the mast and all the work they had to sort it out, makes me wonder how a woman and not a big one, was able to do all that alone and get free of the mast and sails of his Open60 in 20K winds and a considerable sea. Hats off for Sam Davies


... and any other solo sailor in the same straits...


----------



## PCP

*Golden Globe Race / Moitessier*

Bernard Moitessier was much the opposite as a man regarding Robin knox- Jonhston that was a sailor that served on the Merchant Navy and the Royal Naval Reserve. After that and before doing the Golden globe Race he had sailed his Colin Archer from Bombay to England.

*Moitessier grew up next to the sea in Indo-China and left it at the beginning of the Vietnam War as a crew member of sailing trade junks. In Indonesia he purchased the dilapidated junk Marie-Thérèse in 1952 to travel slowly further to France by singlehanded sailing.

On the first leg to Seychelles he had to stop her from leaking in the middle of the Indian Ocean by diving underneath the boat at sea. After 85 days of sailing through monsoon weather he ran aground on Diego Garcia, due to not having modern navigational instruments. He was deported to Mauritius, because Diego Garcia is a military restricted area, and worked there three years before he could sail again in a boat he had built himself.

He sailed it to South Africa and St. Helena to the West Indies, but on a trip from Trinidad to St. Lucia he once again was shipwrecked due to physical exhaustion. Picked up and taken back to Trinidad by friends, he decided to go to France directly, as it seemed the only place he could earn enough to build himself a worthy boat.

He was able to get work on a cargo ship which got him to France, via Hamburg, where he found work with a medical company whilst writing a book about his experience (Vagabond des Mers du Sud). He then moved to the south of France, where he married Francoise, the daughter of family friends, with whom he was to sail the world.

With the money from his book, he commissioned a 39' steel ketch which he named Joshua, in honor of Joshua Slocum, the first person to sail around the world solo. Finally he and Francoise left Marseille in October 1963, leaving her three children in boarding schools.

After wintering in Casablanca they sailed first to the Canaries, then to Trinidad, and through the Panama Canal to the Galapagos Islands. After two years of spending time in each of these places they arrived at Tahiti, but realized that they were running out of time and that there was just eight months left to return to their children.

So Moitessier proposed sailing Joshua home not via the Indian Ocean and Suez Canal, as originally planned, but east wise, via the quickest route, including a passage about the much feared Cape Horn. Upon their arrival in France, at Easter, 1966, they had, without intending it, completed the longest nonstop passage by a yacht in history 14216 nautical miles, over 126 days, a world record which brought him immediate recognition throughout the world yachting community....

Discussions between Moitessier and his friends Bill King and Loïck Fougeron about a solo non-stop trip around the world came to the notice of Robin Knox-Johnston who also started preparations before the Sunday Times offered their Golden Globe award for the first to circumnavigate alone, nonstop, and unassisted, and for the fastest elapsed time. Somewhat reluctantly, Moitessier decided to sail Joshua to Plymouth to meet the criterion for the race of leaving from an English port, but left months after several smaller and therefore slower boats.

He departed Plymouth on 23 August 1968 and, after a quick passage south, he was off the Cape of Good Hope by 20 October 1968....

From the time of calms in the Indian Ocean where he was depressed and discovered yoga as a means of controlling his moods, he started to think of not returning to Europe which he saw as a cause of many of his worries...

Although Moitessier stood a very good chance of winning, he abandoned his effort seven months into the race, and continued on to Tahiti rather than returning to England...

Although he abandoned the race, Moitessier still circumnavigated the world, crossing his path off South Africa, and then by sailing almost two-thirds of the way round a second time, all non-stop and mostly in the roaring forties, set another record for the longest nonstop passage by a yacht, with a total of 37,455 nautical miles in 10 months.

Despite heavy weather and a couple of severe knockdowns, he even contemplated rounding the Horn again. However, he decided that he and Joshua had had enough and, on 21 June 1969, put in at Tahiti, from where he and his wife had set out for Alicante, Spain, a decade earlier. He thus had completed his second personal circumnavigation of the world (including the previous voyage with his wife).....

It took him two years to finish the book about his trip in Tahiti, during which time he met Ileana Draghici with whom he had a son, Stephan. They moved to the atoll of Ahe, where Moitessier attempted to cultivate fruit and vegetables. Ileana encouraged him to move to America to complete films about his sailing but he left after two years in his boat Joshua.

Joshua was beached, along with many other yachts, by Hurricane Paul at Cabo San Lucas in 1982. It was salvaged and restored, and is today berthed as part of a maritime museum in La Rochelle, France. After further travels, Moitessier returned to Paris to write his autobiography.

Moitessier was an environmental activist who protested against nuclear weapons in the South Pacific and against overdevelopment of the Papeete waterfront in Tahiti. He died of cancer on 16 June 1994 and is buried in Bono, in Brittany, France.*






What a sailor, what a Character


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Armel is doing a superb performance. This guy, that finished second on the last edition, is very good at tactical decision but now it seems also untouchable in pure speed. All are losing to him, and not even François is not able to keep with the Rhythm.

I would have expected that the kid (François) in a very fast boat to be the faster in pure speed. well, no, Armel is showing all his skills that have made him a champion. Even so the distance to François is only 45NM and for the 6th only 87NM.... but increasing.

Let's look at Armel race record, that is a very substantial one. I guess that he wants very much to add a victory on the Vendee to that brilliant record.

2012
*Winner of the GP Guyader*  
3rd place in the Europa Warm'Up

2011
3rd place in the Transat Jacques Vabre (with C.Pratt)
*2nd place in the Transat B to B*

 2010
*Winner of the Transat AG2R (with F.Delahay)  
Winner of the Solitaire du Figaro *
*2nd place in the Route du Rhum*

 2009
*2nd place in the Vendée Globe*

 2008
*IMOCA World Champion*
* 2nd place in the Transat Artemis*

 2006
4th place in the Route du Rhum 
4th place in the Solitaire du Figaro

 2004
*Winner of the Transat AG2R* (with N.Troussel)

 2003
*Solo offshore racing French Champion 
Winner of the Solitaire du Figaro*

2001
*winner of the Tour de France à la Voile*.

 2000 
*2nd place in the Solitaire du Figaro*





Day 12 highlights - Wednesday, November 21, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## G1000

*Xp 33*


----------



## PCP

*Re: Moth, best off 2012*



opc11 said:


> Amazing how much more sail area the 49er had and still couldn't keep up w/ the Moth. Very cool!


I would say that the Moth has a very little wet surface since it is almost all out of water and that makes for a much lesser need of sail area

Power versus drag = more drag equals to more sail area for the same speed.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Xp 33*



G1000 said:


>


Yes, A very nice sailboat. The only thing I would change : a hull insert "window" on that white surface on the salon. It would not be significantly prejudicial to the hull structural strength and it would vastly improve the saloon ambiance.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Allures 45*

Almost a year back we have talked about the new Allures 45 and recently about the Boreal 44. Those two boats are a notch over the OVNI, at least the old line, in quality (and in price too) and as I have said it is one of the types of boats the French sailors use for voyaging and eventually to circumnavigate.

YachtingMonthly tested recently the Allures 45 and the movie is on internet. This one is ready to go, I mean circumnavigate and I guess you are going to understand why the French like them to do extensive voyaging

This, like the Boreal is a centerboarder that can be beached. The performance looks more then adequate for a centerboarder full loaded to circumnavigate.

I love the dedicated space for the outboard






Another test and some more movies:


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe.*

As you have noticed Stamm the Swiss sailor afer been on the top of the race has been losing some distance to the leader. Not much(68nm) and is still om the leading pack. Honestly I thought that he could not keep the rhythm anymore. It seems I was wrong:

*Among the leaders, Bernard Stamm - curretly 5th - seemed to have chosen quite an unusual route, and his speed was 1 or 2 knots slower than the other skippers' in the leading pack. The Swiss sailor gave more details about his situation during Friday's radio vac. Since sailing through the Doldrums, he has been unable to use his genoa, which got damaged in the intertropical convergence zone.

« The sea was pretty chaotic and in a windless area, the boat was shaken really hard, one of the centreboards went up and it tore up the genoa. In order to keep progressing, I had to take a route that goes further east than the others, otherwise it would have slowed me down a lot. ». The skipper has also been busy taking care of an autopilot issue and he has't been able to sleep much lately. « I'll soon be done with the repairs, the end of he punishment is coming! », the sailor explained on Friday morning.*

Nice we will have a top racer again.

On the top of the race the only François is recovering slowly distance to the leader (Armel) all the others are losing. Well it seems that my hopes on François regarding speed were not unfounded


----------



## PCP

*Nordship 430*

We have posted about already about it and know YachtingMonthly has tested the boat and well, they could not have said better.

I have already talked extensively about other Northsips (380 and 40ds) and I have said that these boats impress me very much. I had been inside the boats and talked with the builder and the overall quality is just among the best I had ever seen. Besides that recent models (including those two) are good sailing boats, I mean in what regards sailing. Obviously not performance cruisers but they are not slow as the older models. They don't need much wind to sail and can sail with much wind with remarkable comfort and with an easy motion.

I just love the interiors. They impress me more that the ones from HR, Najad or almost any other boat. Great boats for the ones that are looking for a true DS and have the money for them. Has most things in live that are very good, they are expensive.


----------



## PCP

*Nordship 380*

The Nordship 430 is a great boat but t I find the 430 an overkill for my needs.

In what regards space, I find the 380 the more interesting of all the Nordships : It has more storage space than many 42fts and a really nice living space.

I agree with that boat tester when he says that the storage space of the 430 is amazing and that quality is shared by all other Nordships

The 380 has enough storage space even to cross Oceans and an adequate on for long distance cruising besides that I remember that the the builder and designer said to me that the boat was almost as fast and sometimes faster than the 40ft and it does not seem to me a lot slower than the 430 that seems to be proportionally an heavier boat,

I find the 380 outside design a very well balanced one. Take a look and be amazed with the interior space. I will tell you, when I am really old I am going to want one  and If I was living aboard all year long and I had to choose a 38ft, I would choose this one (if I had the money for it, but that is another story).


----------



## hannah2

Interesting interior design concept. Like how you can work on the engine but not crazy about the aft berth being so wide. Guess the lee cloth would go right down the middle but still seems a bit too wide to brace yourself into while on a rolling passage. Having a tight passage berth is so important when one is trying to get some sleep while off watch. If you took out the center table across from the engine box and had a lee cloth there that would be a very good passage berth. And it would be very close to the companionway.


----------



## PCP

*Nordship*



hannah2 said:


> Interesting interior design concept. Like how you can work on the engine but not crazy about the aft berth being so wide. Guess the lee cloth would go right down the middle but still seems a bit too wide to brace yourself into while on a rolling passage. Having a tight passage berth is so important when one is trying to get some sleep while off watch. If you took out the center table across from the engine box and had a lee cloth there that would be a very good passage berth. And it would be very close to the companionway.


If you look at the 430 test you will see that the tester says briefly (and shows the lock) that you can take away the table between the two settees on the library/tv room and make a sea berth there.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Archipelago raid*

Great fun in a beautiful scenery (Sweden Archipelago):


----------



## PCP

*Nordship 360*

A nice movien and a diapotama about the Nordship 360 that is incredibly beautiful for a deck saloon with 36ft. Not that the boat is specially beautiful as a sailing boat just that it is almost impossible (in my opinion and to my idea of beauty) to make a 36ft deck saloon not to look tubby and out of proportion. This one is on that aspect a very good design.

I just find that with just more 2ft the 38 offers much more space. It is true that it is also considerably more expensive. Anyway the 36ft will make an wonderful coastal cruiser for two and many don't desire or wish more than that. I guess that for some this boat would also be enough for long cruising. It still offers an incredible storage space for a 36ft:


----------



## hannah2

PCP,
I think that the 360 is the best looking of all the Nordship's you have posted. It is way less boxy looking, very pretty. Deck wise do you realize it has bigger cleats than the Allures you had posted earlier. And the Assy on the Fancore Roller furler is the way to go on any sailboat used for coastal or blue water cruising. Very nice cockpit also.
Below, the idea of those slates under the mattress is perfect I have never seen that before but I may talk with Boreal about it. I'm tired of fighting damp mattress's over the last 40 years. One can also see what is in that huge storage place with that slat design. 
The 360 is the perfect boat to sail long distance cruising. If you can get it without the teak it would be a wonderful boat for the Sea of Cortez.

Cheers


----------



## Faster

Wow... a perfect boat for the PNW.

Years ago Cooper yachts managed to produce some fairly attractive PH cruisers.. but this one really ticks all the boxes.

Love the good sails, storage ideas, ventilated berth platforms, raised settee and esp the overall 'non Ikea' fit and finish. (ironic since it's a Scandinavian boat!) Beautiful. Not sleek, no 36foot DS can really be, but very nicely done with a good cockpit and what looks like reasonable sightlines over the house. It also makes sense that you needn't spend space on an inside steering station with today's remote APs..

Send me one (along with a winning lottery ticket!)

EDIT.. Agree with hannah about the teak... is that an option?


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> ...
> 
> EDIT.. Agree with hannah about the teak... is that an option?


Yes of course. On these boats you can really make lot of modifications. They make about 10 boats a year all with great care. As I have said I at talked personally with the owner/designer about his boats and it enthusiasm is huge even if he is not a young guy anymore. He make boats passionately and without compromises in what regards quality or price. He just do what he thinks is the best way to put his ideas on the water and this guy has great ideas and a huge knowledge:

*The founder of the company Lars Buchwald started by making accommodation and as sub-contractor for several well-known Danish ship yards. During the years they have gathered a great deal of knowledge from building and developing racing yachts, producing one-off projects and making several boats for sailing around the globe.

In 1988 Lars Buchwald acquired the rights for the Nordship boat program, which was the beginning of an extensive development program, where all the experience from previous constructions was used in the process of developing the new Nordship models. It was during this time the yard changed name to Nordship Yachts Aps.

At the beginning of 1990's the first deck-saloon yachts were introduced, and today the Nordship model program consists only of deck-saloon yachts produced individually to meet the specific clients wishes and requirements.
In 2008 the yard celebrated its 30 year jubilee, together with the celebrations of the new facilities at the current address in Lunderskov. *

Nordship Yachts is one of the leading manufacturers of deck-saloon yachts.

You can see him showing the boat on the 36ft movie, passionate as always.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Jesus, another one that is probably have to give up and this time a true contender to the victory, Vincent Riou:

*Vincent Riou tells about his colision with a metal buoy. "I was sailing on port side when I heard a big noise at bow of the boat. The buoy hit the starboard side. This is the first problem and that's bad but it's not the worst. I managed to see the boy because I was the navigation station. It was a huge metal buoy, something you find in a commercial port. Because it was almost submerged it must have been at sea a long time.

I think the buoy was half air and half water. "After the buoy hit the hull four metres away from the bow, it hit the shroud, the carbon cable which helps to support the mast. The only luck I have today is that it is only carbon composite material, so me and my team are analysing the damage in order to find the best way to imagine some repairs. I have sent all the information to my architect and rigging manager. I expect some repair proposals from them. The Vendée Globe turns on very small details like rubbish you can find on the water. See you (sadly)"...

"I think I have a good solution to repair the boat efficiently. But it could take a long time because of the weather conditions. It's very hot and it's complicated. I won't be able to repair whenever I want. I am trying to find the best solution and see if I can go on with my race. The Vendée Globe turns on very small details like rubbish you can find on the water."

The 40-year-old Brittany skipper is famous for his skill and inscrutability but you need some luck to finish a Vendée Globe let alone win one. It these hidden dangers, rogue containers and buoys that are not where they are supposed to be, are what the skippers fear most.
*










Meanwhile Sam Davies (wit another sailor) is bringing back her boat uder Jury rig to France, doing 7K.





Sam Davies et sa nouvelle grand-voile _por VendeeGlobeTV_

The "small" problems that were making Stamm to be slower than the others. Don't miss this. Stamm went to the top of the nast with the boat at speed slaming int o waves to take care of that little problem Very impressive images. These guys are not only incredible sailors but also incredible guys capable of quite amazing stuff.





Bernard Stamm grimpe en tête de mât _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Second week's highlights (in English)





Second week's highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Vendee globe*

Nothing new at the head of the race except Vincent's bad luck.

They have posted some fantastic videos with sailors presentation. Lets see the front pack:





Le portrait d'Armel Le Cléac'h _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Portrait François Gabart _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Jean-Pierre Dick's portrait _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Alex Thomson's portrait _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Le portrait de Vincent Riou _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Bernard Stamm's portrait _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Arc*

Grand Canaria port and Marina is packed with boats. The rally starts today


----------



## Mr W

*Vestas Sailrocket*

Rumour says 65,45 knots over 500m, 68,01 knots top speed... 

Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Arc*

*ARC Start Delayed for Cruisers
24 November 2012

It was announced at noon today at the Skippers' Briefing in Las Palmas that the start of the ARC will be delayed for the cruising divisions.

For the first time since 1989, the start of the ARC has been delayed due to predicted high winds. A low pressure system is predicted to bring winds of 25 knots or more on Sunday night, making uncomfortable conditions in the wind acceleration zone south of Gran Canaria. Cruising and Multihull division skippers have been offered two start dates; one as planned on Sunday 25, and one on Tuesday 27 November.

The low pressure system is predicted to bring southerly winds of 25 knots or more, with 35 knots plus in the wind acceleration zone to the south of Gran Canaria. Boats are expected to be in this area for their first night at sea on Sunday night, and while not unmanageable, the conditions are likely to be uncomfortable for the majority of the family cruising boats.

All cruising skippers were offered the choice of starts; to take the original start on Sunday 25, or a rescheduled start on Tuesday 27 November. The majority of skippers elected to wait until Tuesday 27, remaining in harbour in Las Palmas while the winds blow through.

Stronger winds do provide ideal conditions for the racing fleet, and these boats will take start on Sunday, as planned. *

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/news.aspx


----------



## PCP

*Puma for selling. Nor anymore*



G1000 said:


> ...
> 
> PUMA Volvo 70 For Sale - mar mostro Anyone interested?


*SOLD!!* *to the Ladies*

*SCA participates in Volvo Ocean Race 2014-2015.

About 80 percent of SCA's consumers globally are women. This strong reason is behind SCA's decision to sign an all-female crew for one of the sporting world's most challenging events. SCA is participating with a boat in the next round of the world Volvo Ocean Race in 2014-2015.

"SCA's participation in the Volvo Ocean Race is important in our continued journey of change. As a Group, SCA invests in global growth, particularly in the hygiene area. The Volvo Ocean Race will increase awareness of the SCA brand and create stronger links to product brands ...

"SCA's investment in an all-female crew is unique. Competing for nine months in the world's toughest offshore sailing race is a challenge that deserves respect. The new boat design lends itself to an all-female crew, and our aim is to create a strong team that will have the best possible platform to undertake the challenge," says Richard Brisius, Atlant.

SCA is the world's second-largest hygiene company and Europe's largest private forest owner with sales in more than 100 countries.*

SCA participates in Volvo Ocean Race 2014-2015

*
While we wait for the delivery of our race boat, scheduled to be delivered in autumn of 2013, we have acquired a top-notch training boat to begin our team preparations

-"We have bought the VO70 boat Puma which came third in the Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012", says Richard Brisius, Managing Director of Team SCA.

The boat is now in the United Kingdom undergoing a graphic makeover and being adjusted to become the ideal training boat. ...

"Right now we are putting together a group of crew candidates. It is a very exciting work and we have been in contact with many interesting, experienced and qualified female sailors from around the world. We hope to have a first group of sailors ready for our team towards the end of the first quarter of the 2103. From there, we will continue to build and our plan is to have most of the crew ready to go during the summer of 2013."

Within Team SCA, there is a small group that works with the selection of candidates. The group includes, besides Richard Brisius, among others Magnus Olsson with experience from seven Volvo Ocean Race projects as well as Joao "Joca" Signorini who won the competition in 2009 with Ericsson 4 and who also sailed on the Telefónica boat in the latest Volvo Ocean Race.*

Puma is Team SCA training boat for 2014 Volvo Ocean Race

So this gives you a difference in budget in what regards the VOR and the Vendee Globe. Here, not even on a top team, they buy a last edition boat has a training boat (a two year old boat), a brand new boat for the race and will have to pay an year of training to a very numerous sailing team.

On a Vendee Globe a boat that had raced the last edition and that means a 5 year old boat is still Competitive and a 2 years old boat is a "new" boat.

Besides that the skippers of the Vendee Globe do not require an year of paid training (and that's not eleven, bu just one). They are already trained by a full season of racing on their Open 60 that is not used only for the vendee Globe but to a Full championship that includes many transats and a duo circumnavigation.

That's why you have 20 boats at the start of the Vendee an 5 at the start of the VOR.

Anyway that are great news. I hope they can get a good team. For sure I would put Sam Davies as Captain and on that crew Jeanne, Dee, Isabel and some other great solo sailors. Well, if they could manage to put Ellen racing again...it would even be a winning team. That would be really nice. Groupama victory proved that even rookie solo good sailors are competitive on the VOR with some training and a great Captain.

....


----------



## PCP

*Xp33*










It seems that the new XP33 is not only beautiful but also fast:






They say about the boat:

*All X-Yachts are superior "upwind" yachts, and the Xp 33 is expected to be a downwind flyer as well.
Xp 33 is designed for both IRC and ORC.*

Yes, it is a relatively narrow boat as all XP but just look at this transom:










Yes, with the relatively low weight and this transom design I believe it will be a Flyer downwind and also an easy boat (when not pushed to the limit). Very nice indeed

.....


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Iroise 46*

This is a very interesting boat even if it looks just like another aluminum boat. It is made by one of the best French Aluminum shipyards and designed by Pierre Delion and Pierre Rolland. Rolland is well known for making racing and fast boats and this one, even if does not look like it, it is a fast long range cruiser. we could even call it a performance one even if its looks make that seems funny

It is not only fast as it has only 1.80m draft and it is a twin keel that can be beached on his legs. The secret of this fast all around long range cruiser boat?: It is a very well built boat with a modern hull and a agreeable and functional interior, a simple and very light one, but the secret is its overall very low weight. The boat weights only 9 900kg and that for a aluminum boat with 46ft is amazing. It has also a relatively high B/D for this type of boat (32%) and that and a 4.26m beam make it a powerful boat. Upwind it can carry 107 m2 of sail and downwind 198m2. That is enough to make this long range cruiser a fast sailboat.

Many times on the sailing program these boats promise a lot and don't deliver in what regards speed. Well, it seems that this is not the case with this one. The boat was tested by Voile and Voiliers and the performance is as good as they sugest:

With Main and Genoa:

12.0K wind at 35º trw - 7.5K.......13.8K wind at 80º Trw - 9.0k
13.5K wind at 90º trw - 9.2K.......9.0K wind at 90º Trw - 7.0K

with Main and asymmetric spy:

10.5K wind at 120º trw - 8.5K......12K wind at 160º Trw - 6.7K

I guess this boat on the trade winds with 18/20k will go effortlessly at two digit speeds and it will cross Oceans days ahead of the typical aluminum centerboarder. The boat could be nicer (even if I do not find it ugly ), but it is a hell of a boat

The price is an interesting one: about 330 000 full equipped with sails (including geenaker and assym. spy), generator, folding propeller and diesel heating (no tax included). A lot of boat for the money.

Look at how the boat glides without almost any wind:


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Vincent Riou worked all nigh laminating with carbon to find out at day light that it would not going to stick He has abandoned the race and is sailing to Brazil.





Day 16 highlights - Sunday, November 25, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_

On the head of the race things have not changed: Armel is leading and François was not able to close on him but is not losing miles either. The third, Jean-Pierre has lost some miles to the leader but he is more to the west and they have again a big tactical play ahead: Before getting strong winds again they have to pass a high pressure zone with weak wind.

Certainly one of them has the better position, Armel or Jean-Pierre? The conditions are different but I confess that I cannot say who will have the advantage: Jean-Pierre seems to have stronger wind, Armel a better angle. Anyway tomorrow it will be interesting to see who has gained on this little play.

François is just only a bit more to the west regarding Armel and the difference in what regards position advantage (or disadvantage) should not be as big as in what regards Jean-Pierre that is much more to the west of both.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

Meanwhile the Polish Zbigniew Gutkowski that was racing in last position has also given up with unsolvable problems on the autopilot. Here is his presentation video:





Zbigniew Gutkowski's Portrait _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## Sapwraia

*Iroise / Allures / Nordship*

Paulo, thanks for posting details of the Iroise - something different - aesthetically that stern styling looks like it could be more refined. The Allures 45 seems to have a better internal layout & flow

Interesting the comments several days ago re Nordship 430 and Allures 45. I spent a bit of time on both at Southampton show (berthed close to each other) and a lot to like.

The Nordship could be an easy long term cruiser. It has a huge hull volume but deals with it better than a typical fat production boat. Quality overall looked good for the price with less of the "manufactured" interior feel that even HR now have. In places the timber finishing was clearly "handmade" - not perfection but honest woodworking which is ok with me !

My only reservation with the Nordship is the raised helm position in what is really an "aft-mid cockpit" - you're quite high up off the water and feels like you're standing on the cockpit rather than in it. Not sure how secure that would feel in waves / stronger winds ?

The Allures 45 is very sensible - esp with the port aft utility space / workshop on that particular yacht. There's a lot of saloon seating but very little leg space for more than 4 people (unless they're all short !). Great raised nav station set-up. Don't like the way the fake teak stick-on is taken from cockpit seat up the bulkhead and onto coachroof, but guess thats optional. The YM test did highlight the performance drag when boats like this are fully loaded with cruising gear !

Otherwise the deck / hull joint was quite neatly done although the fibreglass moulding, 8mm joint and aluminum deck were all 3 different shades of white; which is a detail that could be done better (the new 39.9 has the hull/deck joint at the gunnel which should be a neater look).


----------



## APP Mode

*Re: Nordship*



PCP said:


> If you look at the 430 test you will see that the tester says briefly (and shows the lock) that you can take away the table between the two settees on the library/tv room and make a sea berth there.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Sorry i didn't come on right time to see the coments about the NORDSHIPP 430.

This boat is amazing.

I remember Chris Benson did the test of SIRIUS 35DS, and said " Is this the best boat everbuilt?" He gave, one of the highest scores from 1 to 10 on that boat.

The way he classifies the yachts is different.

Does anyone of you, tried to sail one of these models? If sailed Sirius32 or 38, Nordshipp 38 is ok.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Nordship*



APP Mode said:


> ...
> Does anyone of you, tried to sail one of these models? If sailed Sirius32 or 38, Nordshipp 38 is ok.


Not me but some years ago I was very surprised when on a test sail between a Nordship DS 40 and a Wauquiez PS 40. with the two boats on the water at the same time, the Nordship 40 should up not only as a match as a slightly faster sailing boat. A friend of a friend has a Wauquiez PS 40 and the boat is fast, not a big difference to the Wauquiez 40 that is a performance cruiser.

I used to look at Nordships as boats with an wonderful interior but my idea was that they were on the slow side. The designer keep saying me that they were now fast boats (the new designs) but I used to give to what he said a big discount. Well, it seems that in this case there was no discount to be given and he was right: Fast sailing boats for luxury DS sailboats, no doubt.

Wauquiez Pilot Salon 40 - Dida Yacht details - Mare Charter d.o.o.

Regarding the Sirius 35DS the boat weights 7 400kg and has upwind 53.5m2 of sail area. The Nordship 36 weights 6500kg and the up wind sail area is 67m2, both boats with main and jib. Both boats have modern hulls keels and rudders so the Nordship is a much faster boat. That does not mean that the Sirius 35 is a very slow boat for the type of boat but will make a Nordship a very fast one (for the type)

Now to give you a better picture of the sail performance let's compare it with one of the most recent 36 performance cruisers, the Dufour 36 performance: Weight: D-6400kg....N-6500kg; Sail area: D-72.1m2 .... N-67m2. Impressed, well you should be especially because that difference on the sail area is even smaller because the Dufour sail area is taken with a 114% genoa and the Nordship with a jib. Bottom point, surprisingly the sailing performance of the Nordship 36 will have a lot more to do with the one of the Dufour 36 performance than with the one of the Sirious 35.

You can even race this boat and let a lot of guys with the mouth open:laugher

If you think you can detect a personal preferance for the Nordship 36 regarding the Sirius 35, you are right

If I had designed that boat (a 36ft DS) I would have changed nothing and I doubt that I could come with a visually nicer design and that's the best I can say about any boat.










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

I want to talk about something that the VG organization did his best to put under the rug, an incident that costed several hours of penalties to several sailors and that they had tried to ignore.

The incident has to do with colregs and the sea safety. The boats on this race as in any other race have to follow colregs and one of them is the procedure on the traffic separation zones.

Recently in the Round Britain and Ireland record breaking attempt by Marc Guillemot on 'Safran', British authorities have called Marc to be present to court for a gross violation of the rules while crossing TSZ zones and, has on similar cases, a big fine is to be expected.

The case with the Vendee Globe incident happened here:










And it would have been nothing special if the organization had acknowledge it and attributed the penalties, the problem is that even if they knew very well that some boats had broken the rules they remained shut and very quiet. It was necessary Alex Thomson (a British sailor) to question them about that and even so they did not take measures but demanded Alex to fill a protest if he wanted and only then they acknowledge the situation and delivered penalties. Alex had to do the paper of bad guy when they should be the ones to have taken care of the situation.

Some interesting comments from another site:

*There has been a lot of contention regarding Traffic Separation Scheme's (TSS) in offshore racing/record breaking recently. .. Now however, the penalties handed out to 7 skippers in the Vendee Globe 2 days ago by the race committee (and not by Alex Thomson, but more on that later..) has taken center stage....

Traffic Separation Schemes - 'TSS' are in place around busy commercial shipping areas to funnel commercial traffic (big ships) into specific lanes at key points, rather than allowing them to take their most economic route. Much like lanes on a road, they structure shippings routes, and are designed to limit the amount of times ships meet and converge, therefore reducing the amount of collisions. If you want to cross these lanes as a leisure craft, you can. To do this you must cross at 90 degrees, perpendicular to that of the ships, thereby crossing in the shortest distance. As soon as you enter the TSS, you must also go all the way across, no turning round halfway....

So what happened during the Vendee? And why the 7 penalties?

Very simply, 7 boats entered the TSS just off Finnisterre, and didn't follow correct procedure across it. Some for just a matter of minutes before realising and gybing away, Mike Golding and Jean Pierre Dick for example, were as others crossed completely, but not at 90 degrees.

I understand that the sailing instructions/rules of the race, for the Vendee Globe 2012/3 state that normal COLREG's, (collision regulations/rules of the road if you like) are to be adhered to if you want to cross a TSS. None of those 7 skippers did that, none sailed at 90 degrees and others turned around in it, therefore breaking not only the rules of the race, but technically the law as well. As you can imagine it's important for race organisers to follow the rules of the road and the law with their events....

So why all the controversy?

The feeling amongst some skippers was that those who stayed in the TSS longer, or crossed it completely, gained a tactical advantage by doing so, and therefore they asked the Race Committee to look into it. The Race Committee then asked them to protest the boats believed to have infringed. Sailing is the most prolific self policing sport I can think of, and protesting is the only, just, fair and correct way for potential infringements to be looked at in more detail, so fair enough, and protest them they did. Why should there be a rule if some people are just going to ignore it, and gain an advantage by doing so?...

Unfair penalty distribution:

The way the penalties were handed out was also unfair. The committee penalised boats that were in the TSS 'for up to 3 hours' with a 2 hour penalty, so at worse case, 66.6% of their offence. Whereas Brit Mike Golding was in the TSS for 10 minutes and got 30 minutes, 300%. And Frenchman Jean Pierre Dick entered for 150 meters before realising and gybing out and got 20 minutes?! The scaling seems unfair...

Penalty taken on your own terms:

You can also do the penalty at your own discretion, when you see fit, even if it does have to be completed by a certain longitude or latitude. Meaning those who were sharp witted and did their '2 hour' penalty whilst in the doldrums, when not moving for 2 hours anyway, could potentially have less of a 'real life penalty' to someone doing a 20 minute penalty whilst surfing along at 20 knots.This is a harder one to solve. Personally I think adding time at the end is fairer, and therefore better....

Other issues:

Another issue is that Alex Thomson, the skipper who raised the issue with the committee, asking them to look into whether some boats had crossed the TSS incorrectly, is now being heralded as the villain for his actions, especially in France. This is because the race committee asked him to protest the boats that he felt infringed, which he did. It's a self policing sport, and happens all the time, nothing wrong there. What it did though was put the onus on him and not the committee. I don't think this should have ever been the case, this was something they could have looked into and protested the boats for once it was brought to their attention themselves.

All this led to comments on the French version of the Vendee Globe website, many quite insulting (to put it politely) towards Alex, his team, and 'les glouches'. A real shame as he is having a fantastic race so far.

Some claim it is a difference in how the French and British view the rules on this. But 3 French, 1 Spanish, 1 Swiss, 1 Polish AND a Brit got penalties? And at least 1 French skipper, Jean Pierre Dick, claimed to know the rule and 'tried his best' to avoid it&#8230;*

Vendee Globe penalties « Henry Bomby


----------



## PCP

*Out of subject*

It is a Port, Padstow a nice one on Cornwall. This is so beautiful I want to share it with you guys:






Padstow from Tom Mckie on Vimeo.


----------



## hannah2

*Re: New boat: Iroise 46*



PCP said:


> This is a very interesting boat even if it looks just like another aluminum boat. It is made by one of the best French Aluminum shipyards and designed by Pierre Delion and Pierre Rolland. Rolland is well known for making racing and fast boats and this one, even if does not look like it, it is a fast long range cruiser. we could even call it a performance one even if its looks make that seems funny
> 
> t is not only fast as it has only 1.80m draft and it is a twin keel that can be beached on his legs. The secret of this fast all around long range cruiser boat?: It is a very weIll built boat with a modern hull and a agreeable and functional interior, a simple and very light one, but the secret is its overall very low weight. The boat weights only 9 900kg and that for a aluminum boat with 46ft is amazing. It has also a relatively high B/D for this type of boat (32%) and that and a 4.26m beam make it a powerful boat. Upwind it can carry 107 m2 of sail and downwind 198m2. That is enough to make this long range cruiser a fast sailboat.
> 
> Many times on the sailing program these boats promise a lot and don't deliver in what regards speed. Well, it seems that this is not the case with this one. The boat was tested by Voile and Voiliers and the performance is as good as they sugest:
> 
> With Main and Genoa:
> 
> 12.0K wind at 35º trw - 7.5K.......13.8K wind at 80º Trw - 9.0k
> 13.5K wind at 90º trw - 9.2K.......9.0K wind at 90º Trw - 7.0K
> 
> with Main and asymmetric spy:
> 
> 10.5K wind at 120º trw - 8.5K......12K wind at 160º Trw - 6.7K
> 
> I guess this boat on the trade winds with 18/20k will go effortlessly at two digit speeds and it will cross Oceans days ahead of the typical aluminum centerboarder. The boat could be nicer (even if I do not find it ugly ), but it is a hell of a boat
> 
> The price is an interesting one: about 330 000 full equipped with sails (including geenaker and assym. spy), generator, folding propeller and diesel heating (no tax included). A lot of boat for the money.
> 
> Look at how the boat glides without almost any wind:


My wife and I are impressed with the amount of boat building in Northern France. Not only sailboats but all types of boats from motor cruisers to working dive and working port boats. There seems to be a healthy small industry in building small amounts of boats, semi custom and most in aluminum. I know we are proud to be having a boat built from that part of the world.

After looking at the video of the marina where the ARC is leaving from I can see that our next voyage in a year or so will have a lot of the newer style of European cruising boats out cruising. On our last trip ending in 2009 there were few in the S. Pacific. Lots of older style American designed boats but I'm thinking there will be far less of them as time goes on and these old boats become tired no matter how much love they are given. That brings up another point and that is for many years American and Canadians were by far most of the cruisers at least west of the Atlantic. Unless N. Americans get on board with new ideas in boat design there will be less sailing the oceans of the world.
Thanks again for all the great pictures and videos in this thread.

Cheers


----------



## hannah2

PCP,

Sorry I can not answer your PM as I do not have enough posts yet. Same with the quote I do not have enough to post links and tried to delete them. But was writing about the French aluminum boat builders and also to you post and link to the ARC video of the marina where the ARC boats were staying.


----------



## PCP

*Vision Boats: Barracuda*

This one is for you W.










I believe you know well this boat but most of us don't and is just an incredible boat. A 32ft trimaran made of wood. Yes that brown color is real wood and it is a resistant boat. He was been raced hardly on the last 7 years and is still in one piece.
















Technical Specification
Length in total: 9,85 m.....Length overall centre hull: 9,2 
Length folded: 11,50 m.....Beam max: 7,4m
Beam folded: 3,6 m.....Draft incl. centreboard: 2,0 m
Draft excl. centreboard: 0,45 m.....Max mast height over water level:15,50 m
Weight ready for sail: 1377 kg
Mainsail: 40 m².....Jib: 18 m².....Asymmetric Spinnaker: 85 m²
Design: Jan Skov Andersen

They say about the boat:

*The trimaran "Barracuda" is a comfortable family boat as well as a fast sailing boat suitable for racing. The main hull is equipped with a pantry, WC, full standing headroom and 5 bunks. In the pontoons is space for 2 spare bunks and lots of storage.

With an easy to handle folding system the width of the trimaran can be reduced to 3.6 m, so it is possible to use an ordinary berth space in a marina. You can sail the boat directly on to many beaches, because of the kick-up centreboard and rudder. And not at least, because of the extra layer from Kevlar on the bottom of the main hull. You can carry "Barracuda" on a trailer to foreign destinations. Barracuda's weight is only 1.377 kg incl. everything from anchor to sail.

The trimaran "Barracuda" is built in Cedar strip method with west red cedar. Usually the wood gets sealed with fibreglass and afterwards painted. In opposite to this older method "Barracuda" is covered both inside and outside with transparent fibreglass. Barracuda requires maintanence like other fiberglass boats. This method is quite unusual for a boat in this size, but very effective. The construction of the trimaran is very strong and light. With this kind of finish you can admire the special beauty of the wood.
*
Visionboats - For sale new price 115.000€

*"Yes, I sale the drawings for Barracuda. They will coat $2.500. It doesn't take longer to build a trimaran in Wood then the Farrier trimaran in fibreglass." - Kind regards, Jan*

A Sleek-Looking Barracuda Trimaran from Denmark | Small Trimarans

The boat has a very good cruising interior if we consider the incredible sailing performance (sorry about the low quality of the photos, but I guess that I will open an exception for this one. It deserves it:


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Well the strategic play is on and it will be like that for at least more a day or two.

I had said I did not know who was right, Armel more to the East or Jean-Pierre more to West. Well, it seems it was Armel that won a lot of miles to Jean-Pierre but François, slightly West was the big winner. He won 20Nm to the leader (Armel). It is now at only at 34Nm...but has been at only 25.5K and is losing again

The weather pattern is complicated for all and Jean-Pierre, now at 159Nm is going even more to the West (big gamble) while Alex is closing on him (only 6Nm away) sailing much more to the East.

Interesting stuff and a nice way to learn ocean navigation, I mean rooting.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





Day 17 highlights - Monday, November 26, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Archambault in trouble?*

I heard some rumors about Archambault yachts to be in trouble. I even heard the word bankruptcy. Can someone confirm?

They have taken their A27 out of the European boat contest (the boat has been nominated) allegedly because they had not the means to deliver the boat on the local for testing.

That would be really sad news. I love Archambault sailing boats


----------



## PCP

*Trimarans*

Since we are talking about Barracuda let's have a look at some other trimarans, cruising and racing ones, all hot


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe- Very interesting*

.
Really amazing what is going one:

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

Play with the cursor on the red line on the bottom and on the top left click on weather and play with the cursor. Very difficult tactic decisions for everybody, very difficult weather pattern with a big high pressure center just ahead.

On the organization they give a big loss of miles to François. He would have been overtaken by Alex that would be now second but I start to believe that Jean-Pierre knew what he was doing when he sailed to West and now François has done the same. François have certainly big balls to have done that. He was just at 35Nm from Armel (1st) and if he followed him he would be out of this battle with the same 35Kn disadvantage. He don't want that. He wants the lead and he wants it now.

The organization says that he have lost 140Nm and is now at 175Nm from Armel but I don't buy it. I guess that there are a good chance for Armel to get stuck first in weak winds and then in contrary winds while him and Jean-Pierre will have good winds while turning around that high.

Great stuff guys, don't miss this strategic battle.

Breaking News

Alex Thomson (Hugo Boss) torpedoes into second place at the 1500 GMT ranking today. Although he feels it will be short lived, "up to 2nd place on the rankings! Will be short lived when Macif and Virbac get the new wind first but happy anyway!"

Fleet News:

The jackal, Armel Le Cléac'h (Banque Populaire) is watching the fleet in his rear view mirror as he accelerates away from them. T...

Today, on the daily web tv show Vendée Globe LIVE hosted at the race headquarters at Montparnasse Station, Paris, France he said, "you cannot be sure of anything. I'm looking at the others. My northern strategy is clear. We'll see how it goes in a few days. I'll keep on with this plan. *I'm passionate about these strategic moments. We are entering an important moment of the race. It's very interesting to see how everyone is doing. At the beginning of the VG, it was more a speed race, now it's becoming strategic.*"

So the three dimensional chess game that Mike Golding loves is now on. Jean-Pierre Dick (Virbac Paprec 3) despite losing ground is hoping that he has made the right call. "For the moment it's ok. There is not too much wind. I like my position, I'll deal with it. But I'm waiting for the wind. I try to remain rational. Sometimes you have to gamble. The strategy I have taken since the Brazilian coast seemed interesting. For the moment it is not very efficient but I thing it'll go well in the coming days," he said during the web tv show Vendée Globe LIVE.

Stamm is talking about to go up to the top of his mast...again. Jesus what is wrong with this guy

Bernard Stamm (Cheminées Poujoulat) is stamping his feet. The inevitably of finishing his onboard husbandry due to damage to his genoa earlier in the race will eventually have to be faced but he is not willing to sacrifice boat speed at this critical time. .. *I don't know when I'll be climbing the mast again*.

..


----------



## hannah2

The boats to the west have an advantage for the next 24 to 30 hours . In that time frame they will have to east as the high is moving east pretty fast after the next 20 hours or so. There is a squash zone now forming to the west of the high with very tight isobars and 30 to 35 knots of wind. Those to the west now will have to ride the squash zone south easterly. If they can not catch the squash they will be in light winds and the boats to the east caught in the high will be in the right place in 24 hours to catch the compression zone. 

I have a hard time trying to figure out where these boats will be in 24 hours as they go too fast for this cruising mind. As a cruiser I like to play the edges of a compression zone. I think these guys are hell bent on getting right in the middle of this one and running down wind like a bat out of hell.


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> The boats to the west have an advantage for the next 24 to 30 hours . In that time frame they will have to east as the high is moving east pretty fast after the next 20 hours or so. There is a squash zone now forming to the west of the high with very tight isobars and 30 to 35 knots of wind. Those to the west now will have to ride the squash zone south easterly. If they can not catch the squash they will be in light winds and the boats to the east caught in the high will be in the right place in 24 hours to catch the compression zone.
> 
> *I have a hard time trying to figure out where these boats will be in 24 hours* as they go too fast for this cruising mind. As a cruiser I like to play the edges of a compression zone. I think these guys are hell bent on getting right in the middle of this one and running down wind like a bat out of hell.


eh! eh! not only you. Welcome to the game. Yes it is funny and educational to try to understand what these guys are doing specially when they do different things and try to understand what is the better bet.

All those guys that are running on the front pack are masters on the art of rooting, so come in guys, join the party and give your opinion about their options. Yours is as good as mine, maybe better


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Vision Boats: Barracuda*



PCP said:


> This one is for you W.


Hi! Now you really got me going! I´ve seen the old Barracuda, but actually not the new one! This is something that could actually fit my needs.

To me, both the old and the new Barracuda has a lot in common with the Seaon 96 that I owned. You can actually spot a yellow Seaon in one of the videos. It´s really difficult though to know much about the boat just by looking at the pictures, like interior volume, etc. Hopefully the new one isn´t to small for me inside!

Here are some observations based on my previuos experiences that might apply to these boats as well:
The concept of a light boat gives some great advantages (and some disadvantages!). Handling becomes much easier because you don´t have to carry a huge amount of sail area to attain high speeds. I´d say this boat (the new design Barracuda) will certainly be perfectly fine with an upwind sail area of just 70sqm. I would prefer a larger fore triangle to be able to carry a larger self tacking jib (maybe 25sqm instead of 18sqm as specified) and instead carry a smaller head sail (maybe 45sqm instead of 53 as specified). Self tackers are a godsend when cruising with the family! 
My Seaon (around 1600kg) had an 18 sqm self tacking jib, which was a bit small for upwind sailing in light winds, and a 43sqm mainsail. Very easy to handle, but still overall a fast boat. Now, let´s look at the Dragonfly 32. It has overlapping jib (30sqm) and large mainsail (57 or 58sqm, which is a lot to handle!). Almost 90sqm upwind. But the DF 32 is a heavy boat with almost 3500kg, still quite fast though. You really need a winch for that mainsail! If I would buy a DF 32, I would still opt for a self tacker, even though it will be a bit slow in light winds.

One must also remember that a rotating wing sectioned mast (used on Seaon and Barracuda) allows you to use the full area of the mainsail plus adds 3-4 sqm to that. The DF 32 has a rotating round tube section mast that I think prevents you from making use of the foremost 20 cm or so close to the mast. (This is my understanding of this, please correct me if I´m wrong, I´m no engineer!). This means that a main sail area of 53 sqm as specified for the new Barracuda is a lot!

Because of the light build of the Seaon, the feeling I got was never very convincing. I was affraid that things would crack (which they did!), and the interior was not cosy at all! It felt like sitting in a thin shell (which was pretty much what it was!) while inside. Now, the Dragonfly... that´s another story! Feels like driving an Audi RS6!

It would be nice to see the new Barracuda, and I really hope they will build it and that the finish and build quality is sufficient for me. I would really appreciate a ligher boat than the Dragonfly. Hopefully it won´t end up the same way as a lot of other nice boat designs that never leave the drawing table... I know he has been trying to sell the old boat for a while, but it seems difficult to close a deal. Probably won´t be any new boat before the old one is sold, so maybe I´ll go for the Dragonfly anyway 

Edit: I also wanted to share with you something quoted from a test sail of the old Barracuda, from the danish boat magazine "Bådmagasinet":

"The initial acceleration was ok, but it got wilder and wilder. 14-16 knots and we hadn´t even fully trimmed the sails. (...) I steered almost completely downwind while we hoisted the gennaker on the bow pole. The speed is under 10 knots. The gennaker catches some wind and speed increases to 11 knots. "You can steer closer to the wind" shouts Jan (Skov Andersen), and I slowly luff while Christian sheets in the large sail. In the beginning, nothing happens, but suddenly we take off and the boat swishes through the water in a completely wild acceleration. So wild that I bear away again, and the speed drops. "What´s the matter, man? Can´t you sail properly?! Luff again!", says Jan. And the speed miracle appears again, as soon as I steer a bit closer to the wind. "Luff more!", they shout. And when I do, something happens that makes the joy of sailing overcome my fear. We are sailing with water spraying around the lee hull, making 20, 22 and finally 25 knots. The steering is very precise, and I really must say I´m in total control of the boat. But in the same moment I notice that the main hull, which I´m on, flies around 1 metre over the water surface. This is completely amazing."

This is multihull sailing!

Cheers!

Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Sun Fast 3600*

Just some renderings:



















LOA 11,20 m
Hull length 10,85 m
LWL 9,55 m
Beam 3,55 m
Disp 4.500kg 
Ballast 2.000kg / 44 %
Depth 2,15 m
Main 36,0 sqm
Jib (106 %) 33,0 kvm
Spinnaker 100 kvm
Engine 20 PS, Saildrive

Main sail a bit smallish...? 

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau SunFast 3600*

It looks just great and the numbers are what I have hoped for. The only thing left is to see what kind of interior it will have. This boat is going to be be a cracker




























The interior and the galley seems small and a bit odd. Why two seats, one on the chart table and other on the galley? Is that a chart table or the refrigerator is there also? The arrangement of the stove and the sink seems impractical. The sail locker is a great idea and the two cabins will be Ok if the boat has a decent storage space on the cockpit, otherwise It will end up to have only an utilizable cabin and that is just not enough for a family to cruise, even in a spartan way.

...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Sun Fast 3600*



Mr W said:


> ...
> Main 36,0 sqm
> Jib (106 %) 33,0 kvm
> ..
> 
> Main sail a bit smallish...?
> 
> //Mr W


Is not really a jib but a 106% genoa. I guess the reason most modern sailboats have the type of balance between main and genoa (that favors a big main and a smaller jib) has much to do with the need to clear the saloon space. Even the ones that have the mast on the cabin need a compression post. Maybe also to ORC handicap that values small front sails and big mains.

If you look at an open60










you will see that the mast is on the middle of the boat and that if we consider a small genoa the areas of the main and Genoa will not be very different.

Do you have noticed that on the Sunfast 3600 the mast in the middle of the saloon? Not so much in the middle of the boat regarding an Open 60 but probably more than the average of most performance cruisers. Maybe is that different distribution that makes for a main not much bigger than a 106% genoa.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Arc*

Great confusion on the ARC. The racing fleet division departed at the right time (two days ago) but the departure for the cruising division was postponed (25/30K wind) and they had been given two days for choosing their departure time. It seems that all chose the last day (and they got 25/30K anyway).

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

It seems that almost all had departed even if I can "see" some that stayed in port. Contrary to last year I cannot find any movie from the departure. I guess that the incertitude drove the media away.

27th Atlantic Rally for Cruisers - Cruising Boats Start - Yachts and Yachting Online

a movie about the reason why they chose to stay in port:


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## HMoll

> The interior and the galley seems small and a bit odd. Why two seats, one on the chart table and other on the galley? Is that a chart table or the refrigerator is there also? The arrangement of the stove and the sink seems impractical. The sail locker is a great idea and the two cabins will be Ok if the boat has a decent storage space on the cockpit, otherwise It will end up to have only an utilizable cabin and that is just not enough for a family to cruise, even in a spartan way.


Agreed. What a dissappointment. It is just a bigger 3200! I guess Jeanneau do this line for a very precise niche of racers, just to have the brand out there hopefully in some podiums.


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## PCP

*Sunfast 3600*

That interior is screaming for a small central removable central navigation place (on the top of the main table) and that would permit a big galley on the two sides of the boat, without any seat. that would make the main table smaller but who cares, it will be more than enough for two and most of the time people eats outside and that table is not a good one anyway, with a mast on the middle. A good galley, or at least an acceptable one is indispensable in any cruising boat.










I guess you and me are not the only ones pissed with that. Maybe they will, on account of sailors pressure, end up making two versions: a pure race version with a skeleton interior and one with a better interior for cruiser racers.

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

I see you found some info on the SF3600. I saw some of the photo's late yesterday, not interior design until here. was going to look later tonight, but will not worry about it too much.

Marty


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

More and more interesting. Now three more boats are joining the leader pack land all following the west option: Jean, Mike and Dominique.

The lateral distance between Armel and Jean-Pierre (the one more to the West) is almost 500Nm

Stamm comes charging on a middle position and the organization give him the 2th place. It is possible that he is taking the best option. They continue to say that François is at 250Nm from the leader and Jean-Pierre at more than 300Nm but fact is that Armel is making 11K (and will lose speed) while Jeam-Pierre is doing 15K and will not lose speed but it is possible that he even increases it.

A difference of 4K over 24 hours will give 96NM. When Jean-Pierre started to go West he was at only 50Nm from Armel. It would be needed two days and a half with this difference of speed for Jean-Pierre to recover the distance over Armel...but the difference of speed can be a lot different and if Armel starts to makes only 6 or 7K (that I think it is quite possible) the time needed it will be reduced to half and that is a bit more than a day so..*.big game at play*

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





Day 18 highlights - Tuesday, November 27, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


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## hannah2

Armel maybe in the right spot along with the second place boat. Even though he is in only 10 kts of wind from the ENE for the next 12 hours and Virbac Paprec the boat most west and in 5th place has 15kts for the next 12 hours. Virbac must east right now and get on the east side of 20 degrees long or else he will loose any chance of picking up the 30 kts in 24 hours. There is a chance that all top 5 boats will come close together again as they surf down the narrow shut of 30 kts winds in squash zone.


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## PCP

*New boat: Malango 888*

The Malango 888 is , like the Iroise 46, a Pierre Roland design. I liked the previous boat and I love this one even more. If I was on the market for a 30ft, this would be the one. Ok, the interior is a bit crude, but how cool it is a dingy garage on a 30ft boat? On a 40ft boat carrying a dinghy is a drag, on a 30ft boat is just dangerous, I mean if you put it forward it will occupy so much space that with bad weather and the boat heeled it will be dangerous to goo forward. That means that the dingy would have to be on the water, pulled behind the boat....with a lot of drag and loss of speed. Not on this one

Talking about speed this is a light (2 800kg) and fast boat with a ballasted swing keel (Pogo type) with a big draft when down (2.30 -1.0m) with a 30% B/D and a beamy boat (3.45m) with all the beam brought back.

Being light the boat has a relatively small area upwind (56m2 - 25/36) but can carry a huge asymmetric spinnaker downwind (75m2). The boat has a small saildrive with 14cv.

The boat was tested recentely by voile and Voilers. They had fun with the boat and it seems that they forget to measure the speed. Only two were taken:

Main sail and Geenaker: 6K wind at 110ºTRW - 5K speed

Main sail and Asymmetric speed: 15k wind at 140ºTRW - 9K

9k with 15K wind on a 30ft it is very good as it is very good 5K speed with 6k wind. I like this boat

The boat costs without VAT 72 900 euros.


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Excellent "post" on Sail world:

*In the Vendee Globe, with 760 miles to go until the boats arrive at the first mark Gough Island, which they must leave to starboard, everything is still to play for in this nail biting strategic climax to the gateway of the southern ocean. If the fleet compresses it means the drag race through the mountainous swells of the icy south seas and leaves the race wide open.

1992 Vendée Globe winner and French sailing legend Alan Gautier, explained the position on the web TV show, Vendée Globe LIVE He said, 'the skippers have been thinking hard for three days now, looking for the right strategy. Jean-Pierre Dick (Virbac Paprec 3) and the 'West Group' (François Gabart (Macif) and Jean Le Cam (SynerCiel) are doing all right, maybe better than Armel Le Cléac'h (Banque Populaire) in the end, but it's easy to say that now. When they actually made their choices, things weren't that obvious.'

Gaultier continued to say that it's hard for skippers when there is no wind, not only because they are not moving, but also because they know their opponents are probably getting different conditions and maybe doing better than they are, so psychologically, it's difficult.

He added 'the next few days will be very exciting for the sailing enthusiasts who follow the Vendée Globe, because there's a big group that will enter the South together.'

The skippers are now committed to their definitive strategy and the first five are all possible winners. It is now a matter of luck and speed as who will gain and lose around the edges of the high pressure the anticyclone of St Helena casting her windless nets in the South Atlantic.

If the Jean-Pierre Dick (Virbac Paprec 3) and the 'West Group' (François Gabart (Macif) and Jean Le Cam (SynerCiel) are fast over next couple days, and the hole of the high does not extend east then they might edge by in front and make their escape below it. The models are showing the advantage with them and they could make a rapid advance below into the favourable winds, before the High can suck them into its windless car park. If they are successful they will compress the fleet, and make gains towards the ice gate.

The situation for Armel Le Cléac'h (Banque Populaire) depends on how much boat speed he can make in the circling lighter winds 10-12kt winds. If he can sail a shorter course he may be able to bypass the high but the risk is that he could end up with less advantageous wind direction and handcuffed by a high pressure.

Alex Thomson (Hugo Boss) is nervous that he will lose the 200 mile advantage that he has in the bank over Jean Le Cam (SynerCiel). Today on the web TV show Vendée Globe LIVE he said, 'it's pretty nerve wracking really for all of us. We are just waiting for the wind. Armel and I need this ridge to move out of the way and we can't really do anything until the ridge has gone.

And those west guys it does look like the wind is filling in for them now. I have been go through the options of what I could do. Four days ago I was 80 miles behind Virbac, and I could be 80 miles behind Virbac now, where Synerciel is, and so my thinking is, that I am still 200 miles better off than Jean is right now, as long as I still have something in the bank at the end of this; I guess I'll be happy, but it certainly isn't going to be 200 miles.'

The skippers receive the same weather files every 12 hours which show them the conditions they potentially could encounter. On Vendée Globe LIVE the web TV show broadcast every day from the race headquarters at Gare Montparnasse in Paris, Mike Golding (Gamesa) explained where the weather models often don't reflect the more localised conditions, 'now it's quite reasonable and we are starting to see the reality that the model is predicting. Where the models fall down is when you get into a very unstable area of light winds where there are light shifty bits, the model can't show you that and it can only show you an average, and consequently, you come into an area, and you have a wind with a 180 degrees difference.' Therefore, we can deduce that what is forecast and what occurs cannot predicted and so we too like the skippers must wait and see how the next few days play out.

The compression of the fleet is likely and Mike Golding (Gamesa) is confident that there are gains to be made which will see the top eight all enter the southern ocean together. The stage has been set and patience is the only option as the conclusion unravels over the next few days. It is a poker game where the player's conviction ranges from resolute to exhausted. Only the arrival of the rankings every four hours can offer an answer. In a war of nerves, knowing how to negotiate the best course through light winds is paramount. *

Sail-World.com : Vendee Globe - Tension rises as the clock ticks on

Great stuff. I am not as confident as Alan Gautier that Armel has done the bad choice, well, he knows a lot more than me but the Chacal (Armel) is a tough costumer and it all depends on the speed he can manage on the lighter winds. If he can maintain 10/11K I guess he will not lose over the guys on the west at least if he can go out of the high in a day and a half.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking


----------



## PCP

*World Voyage Planner*

Jimmy Cornell's New Book Is Out. I have to get one for Christmas

*As far as I know, most yacht delivery skippers use his books to plan and organise their next delivery trip. He now has a new book out.

Jimmy Cornell, sailing guru for generations of cruising sailors, founder of the Atlantic Rally for Cruisers and author of upwards of 14 books on sailing already, just keeps writing. His reputation for accuracy, as well as the appropriateness of the books that he writes makes each one walk off the shelves. His latest is the World Voyage Planner.

The main aim of World Voyage Planner is to help sailors plan a voyage from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world, with suggestions of alternative routes to certain destinations, recommended times and favourable seasons, tropical storm areas and critical months, suggested detours to attractive places, and strategically located ports of call to be used in an emergency.

World Voyage Planner fills a glaring absence among nautical books by being the only book to be written specifically on the subject of offshore voyage planning. It is thus a valuable and indispensable companion to Jimmy Cornell's other books as it enables the reader to plan, undertake and accomplish a voyage from the earliest stage of conception to its successful completion.

His books now cover the entire spectrum of offshore voyaging with World Cruising Routes outlining over one thousand routes between specific destinations from start to landfall, World Cruising Destinations, giving detailed information on 184 maritime nations and Cornell's Ocean Atlas presenting a comprehensive picture of weather conditions in every ocean of the world.

Every voyage is illustrated by pilot charts showing the weather conditions for the recommended months, such as average direction and strength of winds and currents. These up-to-date charts are based on observations made by meteorological satellites in the last twenty years and present an accurate picture of the current weather conditions in any of the world's oceans.

A description of the various alternatives for the continuation of the voyage concludes each section. In recent years cruising yachts have reached some of the most remote parts of the world from Greenland to the Amazon, and even such challenging destinations as Antarctica and the Northwest Passage are no longer the preserve of tough explorers.

While the main focus of this book is voyages along the most popular cruising routes, there are also suggested voyages to less frequented destinations, from Spitsbergen and Alaska to Southern Chile and Antarctica, but also on some of the navigable rivers and inland waterways of Europe, North America and West Africa.*

Yacht Delivery News: Jimmy Cornell's New Book Is Out


----------



## hannah2

Well it is looking like Virbac Paprec and the other western boats really have made South Easting in time. There is going to be a lot of boats in a tight group soon all running in 30 knots of wind. The way they have been running into things in this race,(bouys, fishing boats) I hope they do not run into each other. 96 hours out is where things will get really difficult as the boats are going to have to go deep into the 50 lats to keep the wind. There will be plenty of ice and fog plus a lot of tired sailors. With the race so close between so many boats some sailors will take the chance and go deep.


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## PCP

*New boat: Hunter 40*

I have been accused of not posting about American boats. That is not true and I have posted about all new American boats that I find interesting but that is true that I refrain myself to post about American boats that I don't like even if I do that regarding European boats, if they are from big mass production builders.

Well that distinction makes no sense so let's have a post about the new Hunter 40.

The first photos of the boat had surprised me. The boat looked modern and nice:



















I got interested and I thought: Finally they got one of the main NAs to design their boats.

They say about it:

*Whether you are a day sailor or serious cruiser, the new Hunter 40 isdesigned to please. Her superior sailing characteristics are honed from her 65 predecessors to emerge from our design center.

Built in the United States, she is crafted by people who understand and respect the sea. We chose to launch the new H40 on our fortieth anniversary with the desire to create a sailing vessel that exceeded the expectations of the past forty years.

Come experience the new H40 with her dual helm control, fold-down transom, chined hull and dual heads. Our hand-crafted interiors are made to fit each boat, not the other way around. The result is an interior fit and finish that is as functional as it is beautiful.*

Hum, that is odd they don't say who is the designer and they talk about a "design center"???

Well the boat has a chined hull, that should be a modern hull???, and then I saw this:










This looks like the shape of a 10 or 15 year's old cruiser!!! That is really odd&#8230; and I start to look for hull designs and 3D renderings&#8230;and I found none!!!???? Very odd, that would be unthinkable in an European brand. I am confused.

The American Sailors are not interested in the hull, keel and rudder design of the boat that they are going to buy? Then I started to look for the name of the boat designer and again&#8230;nothing!!!??? I thought that was not possible, the name of the designer gives an assurance of quality, everybody wants to know who designs his boat?!!

Well maybe not, at least not in America, not for Hunter, they have not the name anywhere so I guess it is designed in house by their " design center"!!!???

That is unheard except for some small brads where the owner is the designer and build to very small market niches. In what regards big brands and main market, they all have in house architects but they do not design the boats they make the interface between what the brand wants and the best world Architectural Naval offices that actually design the boats.They also help in the building, adjusting small details and modifying small things.

Well, the "in house Hunter design center" is not what I would have called as a major name in boat design.

After looking a lot I could find out some pictures that show actually something about the hull design, besides the global shape of the boat:



















That chine is really odd, a very hard one that will not allow the boat to sail well except with very little heel, otherwise creating a lot of drag. That kind of chine, I mean a very marked one (even if not so extreme) will give a lot of hull stability and prevents heeling but will not be appropriated to a boat that has the max beam forward. That demands a large beam and all the beam brought back, like on the Benetau 41, a boat with 4.20m of beam:










But even so we can see that the Chine transition is a much softer one allowing the boat to have a maximized hull form at angles of heel till 17º or so and after that allowing the boat to sail close upwind at greater angles without generating a lot of drag:




























The last picture is from a Jeanneau 409 a boat that has not the beam so brought back as the Benetau Oceanis 41, a hull that in its overall shape is more similar (even if more modern) than the one from the Hunter 40, also with a chine but with a even more soft transition than on the Oceanis and that is natural because having the Jeanneau less beam and max beam more forward it will sail upwind with more heel.

So a good question is what is the Hunter 40 beam? On the main site they have 12'2'' or 4.01m????? and on the PDF they have 13'2'' that is equivalent to 4.01m. Here on a more detailed file (that has also beam at waterline they give again 12'2'' and again 4.01m!!!!. I guess that it is really 12'2'' (the boat don't seem to have much beam) and in that case it should be *3.71m*. That makes that hull transom design and the hard chine even more odd since this boat will heel even more than the jeanneau 409 ( Beam 3.99m) going close upwind.

Marlow-Hunter vs Marlow-Hunter 2013 vs 2013 Hunter 40 vs Hunter 40 Sailboats

Regarding ballast and ballast ratio/type of keel in what regards RM, I cannot say all because I could not find any picture or drawing of the boat with the keel in the fin configuration. We know that the draft is 2.03m and that the B/D is on the low side (27.5%). I hope that this boat has a modern keel with all the ballast on the bottom otherwise it would be really on the very low side.

The boat has not much beam neither a big B/D ratio (or a big draft) so this will make it not a powerful boat and not able to carry much sail. The weight is on the high side (8936Kg) and that makes it comparable with the more heavier European mass production boats, like the Bavaria 40 (8680kg) or the Hanse 415 (8900kg ). The sail area is surprisingly bigger 93.46 m2 (to 82m2 and 84.5m2) since both the Bavaria and the Hanse are more powerful boats, with more RM, this means that the Hunter is a more tender boat and a boat that would have to reef a lot sooner than any of the other boats.

If the boat looks well at ¾, on the side it looks a bit odd










And I don't understand the boom traveler not to be on the axis of the support structure. That will create an arm and will multiply the force that will be made on the structure and on that panel that I find really ugly:










View from the back, I find the design too heavy, with a too high transom to my taste:










Regarding the interior it has a very good galley and a nicely overall distributed interior, especially in what regards the two cabin version.










In what regards design, it seems that, contrary to any European brand, it is also made at home in their "design center" and it shows. The comparison with any European brands, that have their interiors designed by the best interior designers, is evident. For what I have saw on other Hunters this difference in the interior quality, as well as in general, is not one of material quality, that is similar to the one of the European boat builders, but one of design quality.


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## hannah2

PCP you have courage to even bring this Hunter subject up on a forum.

I agree with you on all of it and there is a lot more to dislike in this boat. If this is the best Americans can do in a modern designed production boat then we are best off with no new designs at all. We really are in a sorry state on this side of the pond.
Americans will buy them and tell us all what a great boat they have.


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## HMoll

Hey, stop the burn on the Hunter. It probably has a 75hp Caterpillar option that will smoke your Comet upwind:laugher.

Attention to detail is what really distinguishes a careful designer like the mentioned architect. Check out that built-in stern ladder. On your way up from your swim, do not knock yourself on the head with the seat rail above while trying to avoid the platform rigging installed on the same side! 

Finally, that is not any chine, it is a motorsailing deep vee, so at 15 deg heel and 12 kts under full power, it chops waves! It's all about creating apparent wind these days!


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## PCP

hannah2 said:


> PCP you have courage to even bring this Hunter subject up on a forum.
> 
> I agree with you on all of it and there is a lot more to dislike in this boat. If this is the best Americans can do in a modern designed production boat then we are best off with no new designs at all. We really are in a sorry state on this side of the pond.
> Americans will buy them and tell us all what a great boat they have.


Actually I am sorry and pissed. Hunter went down was rescued and I hoped they would get it right: How difficult is to get one of the 10 top NA and one of the 10 top interior designers and tell them what you want and what you think American sailors want?

why do they insist in an amateurish endeavor like if it was just a small firm with the owner doing some very particular and odd boat to a niche market of odd guys? Believe me I would like the Hunter to make good boats and to go out of that hard spot.

I believe their building quality is not different from the one of the European mass production boats, it is a design problem what they have and an easy one to solve. Europeans Brands use not only European Architects but Australians, Newzealanders, South Africans and even Americans , why cannot Hunter get a top NA?

I guess the problem is not only with Hunter. Somebody want to bet that the Hunter 40 is going to be boat of the year on one of the American sailing magazines?

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Dusseldorf boat show*

Guys, I have to make bookings for the Dusseldorf boat show. Hotels are booked well in advance and airplane tickets get expensive when you book later. I have a free calendar and If somebody have a less free timetable I can adjust to have some beers and meet some of you, so the ones interested just send me a PM on the next days, say, till the middle of the next week.


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## Faster

Paulo... you certain about Steck designing this newest boat? That listing shows designs from the 80s and none since. Hunter has always talked about an in-house design team, variously led by Warren Luhrs, Henderson, and I heard/read lately that Rob Mazza (formerly of C&C) is the latest..


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## hannah2

Paulo,

I think we all would like to see hunter build good boats even just for coastal cruising boats. 

I do not know the NA so I will not totally blame him. Maybe he had to work with handcuffs on. But if he did design under restrictions I do not know why unless he was hungry. But remember hunter wants its market to people with the big dream of becoming a sailor. I have met many hunter owners over the years and they did not know what to look for in a boat when they bought it. The wife had never been in a galley under sail but going in a hunter galley at the boat show looked more like her kitchen at home so that helps make sales. I could go on but not worth it, it is just sad. So you see it is not about what sailors want, it is about what non sailors want, that is the Hunter market. I have never met an experienced sailor who owned a reputable sailboat and who decided to change to a hunter. 

And yes hunter40 will win boat of the year in the American rags because the people who read the rags are ? read above.

So what does an American company do to build a good production boat? How do they educate to new ideas and good old ideas alike. 

Cheers
Say hi to JFE in Dusseldorf, stop in and see the boat I think there will be one there.


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## PCP

Faster said:


> Paulo... you certain about Steck designing this newest boat? That listing shows designs from the 80s and none since. Hunter has always talked about an in-house design team, variously led by Warren Luhrs, Henderson, and I heard/read lately that Rob Mazza (formerly of C&C) is the latest..


I guess you are right. I looked for Hunter 40 designed by...and the only name that turn in was Steck but I checked better and they were referring to a Hunter 40 from the 80's. I am going to edit the post.

Anyway the point is valid. It seems even worst. All big brands have in house architects but they do not design the boats they make the interface between what the brand wants and the best world Architectural Naval offices that actually design the boats. They also help in the building, adjusting small details and modifying small things.

Thanks!

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

hannah2 said:


> ...
> Say hi to JFE in Dusseldorf, stop in and see the boat I think there will be one there.


For sure. I have never saw a Boreal 44 inside and I want to see it. I Have been inside Allures, OVNI and Cigale and I want to see how it compares in quality. After I let you know

Just kidding, I know that the quality and strength of the boat are great. Is not your boat by any chance?

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*



hannah2 said:


> Well it is looking like Virbac Paprec and the other western boats really have made South Easting in time. There is going to be a lot of boats in a tight group soon all running in 30 knots of wind. The way they have been running into things in this race,(bouys, fishing boats) I hope they do not run into each other. 96 hours out is where things will get really difficult as the boats are going to have to go deep into the 50 lats to keep the wind. There will be plenty of ice and fog plus a lot of tired sailors. With the race so close between so many boats some sailors will take the chance and go deep.


They have pulled the ice gate further North because growlers are more North that what was thought possible.

The race is just incredible with Jean-Pierre charging at 20K speed and saying:
*"It's a bit like a velvet carpet, it surfs! We don't have a beautiful weather out here; it is the premise of the Deep South! I'm getting into my world!*

A world on the fast lane

Francois is doing 18k and I believe that him and Jean-Pierre will make the next 24 hours at record speed. Meanwile Armel that is still given as the First (with almost 120nm over Jean-Pierre) is making 12K that I believe that very soon it will be 14 or 15K.

I believe that difference over Jean-Pierre is a false one and that there are a good chance for Jean-Pierre and François to become 1st and 2th but it is going to be very close and Armel can even maintain the lead by the slightest of margins but I know one thing: The ride will be a lot softer for Armel and his boat and that also counts.

Armel has not the nick name of Chacal for nothing. In the end even if he loses some small distance it will be very well played by Armel that will come out with a less stressed boat and more french that the guys that are sailing doing over 20k on 30k winds

There is a long way ahead and strength and freshness is needed for a long race and for the final sprint.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





Day 19 highlights - Wednesday, November 28, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Day 20 highlights - Thursday, November 29, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


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## hannah2

Sorry I do not understand the Ice gate thing. Is there a limit set by the race officials of how deep they can go into the ice?

If so then the top 7 or 8 boats in 90 hours are going to all be in light winds if they have to stay in the 40's. The 500 mb charts look bad for good wind. But that would let the slower boats make up ground.

Speaking of weather, looks like the ARC is all over the map as the weather is still weird. I do not think this will be a traditional trade wind year and I think there will be lots of beam on swell coming from up north. 

No not mine, someone else. Boreals boat, Juan Sa Bulan is off to do a nice run around Cape Horn. 3 young men sailing her and having a great adventure as young sailors should.

Cheers


----------



## PCP

*Vendee globe*



hannah2 said:


> Sorry I do not understand the Ice gate thing. Is there a limit set by the race officials of how deep they can go into the ice?
> 
> If so then the top 7 or 8 boats in 90 hours are going to all be in light winds if they have to stay in the 40's. The 500 mb charts look bad for good wind. But that would let the slower boats make up ground.
> 
> Speaking of weather, looks like the ARC is all over the map as the weather is still weird. I do not think this will be a traditional trade wind year and I think there will be lots of beam on swell coming from up north.
> 
> No not mine, someone else. Boreals boat, Juan Sa Bulan is off to do a nice run around Cape Horn. 3 young men sailing her and having a great adventure as young sailors should.
> 
> Cheers


If you want to post about ARC be my guest. Last year I have posted but I have not find the time this year. The ARC with so many boats can give an idea of how the boats behave in what regards speed but it is all relative. It depends on the crew and on other things. Last year a big Island Packet was making a fast ARC...and then started to slow down. I guess they started to become short on diesel

Regarding the gates, yes there are plenty of them and the finality is to put the guys on a safe path out of icebergs and growlers. On the first editions there was no gates there was some nasty accidents and many just had a lot of luck and on that place the only guy that can help you is another racer, everybody else is thousands of miles away.

They have to leave Gouph Island to port and then they have to cross several gates along the way. The first one is south of Cape da Boa Esperança (I don't understand why you guys translate the name of capes, we don't call "chifre" to the horn). To see all the gates just open the tracker, don't touch the scale and follow the route. You will see all the gates.

Cheers

Paulo


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## Faster

Paulo have you posted yet on the Blue Jacket 40?

http://www.bluejacketyachts.com/blue-jacket-40.html


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## hannah2

Hi Faster,
That is a nice boat for a family, even a couple that likes to enjoy everything but bluewater cruising, very nice for that. What I love most is that the company advertises the boat for exactly what it is,'Delightful enviroment for family vacations and over night getaways.' I respect a company that sell its product truthfully. Unlike the one that was discussed earlier that claimed their boat was for serious cruisers when in fact it was probably far less sturdy than the Bluejacket.


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## PCP

*Blue Jacket 40*



Faster said:


> Paulo have you posted yet on the Blue Jacket 40?
> 
> Blue Jacket 40 (BJ40) Performance Sailing Yacht | BlueJacketYachts.com


Yes, about two months ago. I well repost for you.



PCP said:


> Big surprise: Island packet is going to launch a series of performance cruisers. They will be called Blue Jacket line and will be designed by Tim Jackett (ex-President and Chief Designer at Tartan and C&C) in collaboration with Bob Johnson (CEO and Chief Designer at Island Packet).
> 
> The first one is already on its way to production and even if in what regards cabin design I find the boat too classic, not to say old fashioned, in what regards hull design and technical characteristics I love the boat.
> 
> Well, the keel could be more modern and efficient (it is similar to the one on my boat) but in what regards all the rest it looks perfect to me. In fact it is very close to the Comet 41s in what regards weight, ballast and hull design. It fits on the Italian way of looking to performance cruisers.
> 
> A relatively narrow boat with a good B/D a deep draft (2.30) and a big stability that is the opposite in design conception of the also new Tartan(and the CC121). I like a lot more this one.
> 
> Well, there are some things I don't like: The traveler over the cabin and only one winch on each side of the cockpit that will have to be used for the mainsail and the genoa, but I believe that could be changed if clients ask otherwise.
> 
> Technical Characteristics
> LOA: 39' 10" (12.14 m)
> LWL: 35' 0" (10.67 m)
> BEAM: 12' 4" (3.76 m)
> DRAFT: 7' 5" (2.29 m) deep
> 5' 2" (1.56 m) shoal
> DISP: 16, 500 lbs (7,484 kg)
> BALLAST: 6, 100 lbs (2,767 kg) deep
> SAIL AREA: 883 sq ft (82.03 sq m) (100% FT)
> MAST HEIGHT: 62' 6" (19.05 m)
> POWER: 40 HP (30 kW)
> FUEL: 40 US gal (151 l)
> WATER: 110 US gal (417 l)
> WASTE: 25 US gal (80 l)
> SA/D: 21.8
> D/L: 172
> DESIGNER: Tim Jackett w/Bob Johnson, N.A.
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> *Sailplan and rig:
> The large sailplan is a further refinement of the Solent style rig featuring standard double head sails with a working jib and a lightweight 150% reacher that mounts on the integral bow prod, both furled with Harken® systems. The working jib is fitted with a carbon fiber Hoyt Boom® that is self-tending and improves performance with its close sheeting and self-vanging feature while the large reacher boosts performance in light air or when off the wind. The fully battened mainsail is equipped with a standard electric halyard winch and a low friction Battcar system and drops easily into a carbon fiber pocket boom with an integral cover and lazy jack system.
> 
> This easily managed rig has ample horsepower and versatility for optimizing performance in a wide range of conditions. All sheets lead to the cockpit near the helm and primary winches for short-handed convenience.
> On deck:
> On deck, anchor handling has been simplified and made especially convenient with a cleverly designed roller recessed in the bow prod providing secure stowage of the anchor and directing the rode to the anchor locker with a (optional) below deck electric windlass that keeps the deck and profile uncluttered. A deck hatch gives access to this area. Wide side decks with full length raised bulwarks, double lifelines, bow and stern rails and cabin top handrails provide security on deck.
> 
> The large cockpit has deep coamings, long seats and twin helm stations with great visibility and ready access to all sail control lines. Seat hatches provide access to storage areas and a (optional) central drop-leaf table makes for a great social area. Hinged transom doors open to the integral stern platform with a retractable swim ladder under a central hatch.
> 
> Materials used:
> The Blue Jacket's hull and deck are made with a state of the art vacuum infusion process utilizing 100% vinylester resin, quadraxial knitted E-glass reinforcements and a structural foam core. The end result is superior strength and stiffness with significantly reduced weight compared to conventional laminates. &#8230;
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> The use of premium structural foam coring produces better interlaminar bond properties with freedom from potential core deterioration compared to other choices and allows for an industry-best extended hull and deck warranty. *
> 
> http://www.bluejacketyachts.com/
> 
> ..


Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Bluejacket 40*



hannah2 said:


> Hi Faster,
> ... What I love most is that the company advertises the boat for exactly what it is,*'Delightful enviroment for family vacations and over night getaways.'* I respect a company that sell its product truthfully. Unlike the one that was discussed earlier that claimed their boat was for serious cruisers when in fact it was probably far less sturdy than the Bluejacket.


I don't know where you read that but on the Design brief Tim jacket says this is a cruiser/racer able to be raced competitively around the buoys and in offshore races and that as a cruising boat it will be comfortable and easy. One can assume in coastal and Offshore conditions since this is also an Offshore racer and therefore an offshore cruiser when used that way.

This is not certainly a weekend cruiser and if it was advertised as that it was wrongly advertised. This boat has a overall good stability and a cruising interior that will support extensive cruising having not any problem in sailing offshore and crossing oceans. The boat has a water capacity of over 400L and the 150L of fuel will not be a problem since this is a boat that needs very little wind to sail and the water will be good for at least three weeks, I mean with a couple and you can always install an watermaker if needed. I have seen many circumnavigating with ease in boats with far less capacity in what regards tankage/storage and seaworthiness.

Well, it would not be indicated for extensive cruising with two couples, but with a couple (or one with kids) I don't see any problem and it would be the type of boat that I would choose for coastal sailing and occasionally cross an ocean or two

I guess that if they advertise it like that it is because it does not make much sense that the builder of an old designed and anachronistic boat like the Island Packet joins on his line a modern performance cruiser. People would just ask:

An Interview with Tim Jackett and Bob Johnson:...

*Q: Bob, given Island Packet's successful 33 year track record with over 2,500 yachts built and sailing in all corners of the world, how do you see the Island Packet line evolving, and what impact might the Blue Jacket series have on future Island Packets?*

*A: (BJ) Wow&#8230;give me a crystal ball! I guess I'd respond by first saying the "design brief" for Island Packet will almost certainly remain unchanged, with its focus continuing to be on seakeeping, safety, livability and ease of handling for a cruising couple. Different manufacturing technologies (infused composite hulls and decks, carbon fiber components, etc.) introduced with the Blue Jacket line may eventually find their way into Island Packet construction if deemed appropriate, but the two product lines address different market segments with different sets of priorities.*

I certainly would prefer to go offshore or cross an ocean on the Bluejacket than on a 40ft Island Packet, seaworthiness and sea motion included and I am sure I am not the only one that think that way.

But he is right saying that the old shoe is addressed to other type of sailors

Regards

Paulo


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## hannah2

I read that on the Bluejacket website. I'm not saying you can't cross oceans in this boat because it is a nice boat and seaworthy. But I believe that Island Packet used accurate words describing their boat. The Bluejacket 40 would be a great boat for taking the family down to the caribbean from the southern USA for the winter. But with only 40 gallons of fuel making full ocean passages seems not all that practical to me. After many ocean passages over forty years I like the idea now of being able to motor if needed for at least 800 miles. Tonga to NZ is a good example where there are some passages where a stationary high pressure was right in the middle of the passage. Everyone no matter how romantic about sailing would like to be able to get to NZ as fast as possible before the next nasty weather shows up. I have done it with 10 gallons of fuel and did not mind because that is what we had on board. But I'm wiser now and if you are lucky enough to be able to have a cruising boat with lots of fuel you should. I would own the Bluejacket if we decided to stay in Mexico and sail the Sea of Cortez where distance for fuel is not a problem.

I always wanted a Hinckley SWester but now I realize they were made with the New Englander in mind for two week cruises and trips down south, little fuel and water for trips across the Pacific and the Indian Ocean, but they could do it, that's for sure. 

Cheers.


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## PCP

*Cruising Styles and different pleasures.*



hannah2 said:


> I read that on the Bluejacket website. I'm not saying you can't cross oceans in this boat because it is a nice boat and seaworthy. But I believe that Island Packet used accurate words describing their boat. The Bluejacket 40 would be a great boat for taking the family down to the caribbean from the southern USA for the winter. But with only 40 gallons of fuel making full ocean passages seems not all that practical to me. After many ocean passages over forty years I like the idea now of being able to motor if needed for at least 800 miles. Tonga to NZ is a good example where there are some passages where a stationary high pressure was right in the middle of the passage. Everyone no matter how romantic about sailing would like to be able to get to NZ as fast as possible before the next nasty weather shows up. I have done it with 10 gallons of fuel and did not mind because that is what we had on board. But I'm wiser now and if you are lucky enough to be able to have a cruising boat with lots of fuel you should. I would own the Bluejacket if we decided to stay in Mexico and sail the Sea of Cortez where distance for fuel is not a problem.
> 
> I always wanted a Hinckley SWester but now I realize they were made with the New Englander in mind for two week cruises and trips down south, little fuel and water for trips across the Pacific and the Indian Ocean, but they could do it, that's for sure.
> 
> Cheers.


Well, some would think that regarding what you say this is the better boat for offshore cruising or to circumnavigate:






I knew once a guy that circumnavigated solo without any problem on a 33ft sailboat without any engine. That was back in the first years of the 80's and the boat was heavy and not particularly fast (the Bluejacket is much faster and sail with much less wind). He was not a poor guy, he was a sailing instructor, a great sailor and didn't need or want any engine.

Almost 10 years ago I remember a member of this forum that sailed from US to Australia on a 40ft fast J boat with much less fuel tankage than the one the Bluejacket has. At the time that make me some confusion and I asked how mach fuel he had wasted. I don't remember the right numbers but it was ridiculously little, less than half the tankage that if I remember rightly was 90L. He used that mostly for charging the batteries....and its average speed was awesome too (I don't remember the number but I know I was impressed and I am not easily impressed).

The type of boat you favor is a better sailer than the Nordhaven, by a large margin but also by a large margin is a worse sailer than the Bluejacket. I am not referring to seaworthiness or storage but simply to speed and most of all the amount of wind needed to sail. While the Bluejacket will probably make with a Geenaker 4K speed with 4K wind your boat would be almost dead on the water. That makes for a lot of fuel

Note that I don't defend on this thread any type of boat over another. There are sailors for all of them. Neither I try to impose my personal tastes to other sailors, but describing a boat like the Bluejacket 40 has a boat for "*over night getaways*" is ridiculous and inappropriate. That would be a description that would fit in another beautiful american sailing boat, the Morris 36 classic:










Regarding circumnavigating and the boat different kind of sailors would chose to do it, we are following the circumnavigation of a French Young couple, both very experienced sailors, that have chosen a boat with even less storage or tankage than the Bluejacket. They are having a great time, have not any problem and love their boat, a Fox 10.20: a small and fast performance cruiser






Regards

Paulo


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## hannah2

Again as far as the bluejacket 40 goes and what the company says on its website, " The Bluejacket 40 is a delightful enviroment for family vacations and overnight getaways as well as racing around bouys." I just think the company is being honest. But don't get me wrong the Bluejacket 40 can sail anywhere a sailor wants to take it. 

As far as the young French couple go in their Fox, I congratulate them they are out there in a great boat and enjoying life. I wish more young people could do the same instead of having to work their butt of just to make ends meet. Remember, "Life is not a practice run it is the real thing." My wife and I in our 60's now enjoy being in the same anchorages as the young. We still think young but I can't surf 15 foot hollow waves anymore. That explains who we have become and out of senseability. The point is there are many more of us in our 50's and 60's out sailing oceans and we have different needs. If I was 28 years old I would want a Pogo or a Fox because they are great boats and affordable. But in our old age we are wise enough and experienced enough to understand we want things like motoring through a high pressure with no wind if it looks like there is bad weather on the way. We will sail our new boat until she will not sail because there is no wind but I then turn the engine on for how many hours it takes to find wind. And believe me we are not in a hurry just want to be prudent.

As far as those who sail without an engine aboard, they are few and are very romantic or just never had the money to get a boat with an engine. Nothing wrong with that remember that's what I did at 22 years of age. 

We picked our new boat because we are lucky to be able to afford it. We wanted to do something new and exciting. We could have gone out and bought an old valiant or a mason 44 like we had before or a new Oyster. but the idea of a more modern design was our desire. We could have gone out and bought a Fox, a Pogo or a Bluejacket40, we like them but they just did not fit our needs for a bluewater cruiser. We now on our new boat coming have good speed, tankage, comfort and safety and the ability to go to atolls all over the world and jungle rivers of S. America or Borneo and on our terms. That is what fit our needs to enjoy our last bluewater boat. I think the majority of Bluewater cruisers wish if they could have it would like something a little more than the BlueJacket 40. Mind you not that much more.
Cheers


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## PCP

*Long range cruising and sailboat preferences.*



hannah2 said:


> Again as far as the bluejacket 40 goes and what the company says on its website, " The Bluejacket 40 is a delightful enviroment for family vacations and overnight getaways as well as racing around bouys." ....
> 
> I think the majority of Bluewater cruisers wish if they could have it would like something a little more than the BlueJacket 40. Mind you not that much more.
> Cheers


More important than whatever the message the company that is making and selling the boat want to pass is what the boat was designed for and the one that knows about that is the one that had designed it, Tim Jackett and he says about it: *The design challenge presented was to create a yacht with a performance pedigree, one that could compete effectively in around-the-buoy and offshore races yet provide a level of comfort, build quality and ease of use that would gratify the entire family*.

I know enough of sailingboats to recognize what they are made for in what regards cruising and racing and I am quite sure that describing Bluejacket sailing cruising program as a boat particularly suited for "*overnight getaways*" makes as sense as describing a Hunter 40 as a boat specially suited for bluewater cruising. Brands can say what they want to sell the boats, we would be fools if we believed in all what they say

Regarding bluewater cruisers wanting something more than the BlueJacket, it all depends on the cruisers. Some would want a smaller boat, others a bigger boat and the ones that would want a bigger would not want necessarily an aluminium centerboarder. Some would want an heavier fiberglass boat like an Amel, others would want a faster and lighter one like a Pogo 50, others would want a even faster ocean cat like the Outremer 49.

Personally If I was going to circumnavigate I would not chose a boat not bigger than 40ft, I would chose a light boat easy to maintain, easy to sail solo (with small sails), stable, and that would sail with very light winds. I guess that a JPK 38 with a swing keel would be a possible choice. I find the Pogo 12.50 already too big to be sailed solo comfortably, and solo because if I do that there is no way I could bring my wife alone. She likes to do coastal cruise but simply is not interested to be 15 days in a boat without going to shore, and by the way I have almost 60 years old but like to sail fast and get bored in a slow boat and I am not the only one, I mean "old" sailors that like to cruise while enjoying sailing fast.

Each case is a case, sailors are different and that's why there are so many different type of boats designed for bluewater cruising and voyaging. As an example look at the difference in cruising style and sailing between the bigger sister of your boat, an Aluminium Boreal 50, a Pogo 50 or an Outremer 49. All are designed having in mind long distance cruising, but how different can they be? As different as the type of sailors that will prefer each one, and that has nothing to do with age

*The Boréals are aluminium sailing yachts with a centerboard, designed for long offshore voyaging.
- This means that the approach is totally different from a 'holiday' cruising boat
- built in aluminium (which, whilst not an absolute necessity for long voyages, remains the best choice of material)
- with a centerboard inside a keel box. *
Introduction

*Like its siblings in the Pogo range, the Pogo 50 is tailored for fast cruising : it is light, wide, and features a deep (lifting !) draft and generous sail area. Its speed and its seaworthiness put far, far away shores within reach ! Its shallow draft, once the keel is up, allows access to all little paradisiac coves. Its lean deck plan and large cockpit make it the ideal boat at the mooring.*
Pogo 50 | finot-conq architectes navals

*Go fast, go far, enjoy yourself
The Outremers were created from a solid concept: the design and build of catamarans which are all seaworthy, fast and simple. ...Seaworthy, to be free to go anywhere. Seaworthy means to favour security. ...Fast for both safety and the sensations.
Speed is an element of safety and comfort. When facing a particular weather scenario, the average speeds our boats are capable of, allow routes which would otherwise be impossible at lower speeds. Speed is a source of pleasure. It is the very essence of sailing.
Since 1984, 200 such craft have sailed all the seas of the globe crewed by couples and families making their dreams a reality.....The majority have sailed far and wide, with numerous circumnavigations of the globe being achieved.*
Outremer Catamaran - The Concept

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And Voila, Armel given as first doing 17.4K , Jean-Pierre much more South doing 20.9K at only 20.3Nm, François on the same course doing 20.4K at 40.9Nm and Stamm in an intermediate course regarding Armel and Jean-Pierre doing, 20.5K and at 98.8Nm.

Things seem clear now and tomorrow Jean-Pierre will be probably leading, François is going to take more time but probably will pass also Armel and Stamm will be closer also. Armel has not so much pressure but most of all it has a worst wind angle. But they all will be very close and that's what we want

Fantastic race!!!

Last night I had said that François Gabart and Jean-Pierre Dick were going probably have record speeds. Here it is the confirmation:

*Breaking News:Yesterday, between 11am GMT Thursday 29th to 11am GMT Friday 30th November François Gabart (MACIF), travelled from point to point, 482.91 miles in twenty-four hours, averaging speeds of 20.1 knots. This breaks the record held previously by Alex Thomson in 2003. Confirmation of the record is subject to the WSSRC validation.*

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





Day 21 highlights - Friday, November 30, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


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## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> ....
> 
> Things seem clear now and tomorrow Jean-Pierre will be probably leading, François is going to take more time but probably will pass also Armel and Stamm will be closer also. Armel has not so much pressure but most of all it has a worst wind angle. But they all will be very close and that's what we want
> 
> ...


Well, I was 100% right, how coll is that

Jean-Pierre is leading, making 20.3K and with an advantage of 11.7Nm over Armel that is making 19.7K. That lateral distance has almost disapered and we will have a drag race again.

François also recovered to Armel and it is only at 25.7Nm, about the same distance that separated him from Armel when they went for different strategic options. He is making 19.9K, he is close to the same course as Jean-Pierre and have maintained the same distance to Jean-Pierre.

The two big winners of the last days were Jean-Pierre that won 97Nm to Armel, since they went to different strategic options and Stamm that won 85nm to Armel and it is now at 78Nm from Armel. He is sailing in about the same course has Armel and doing 20.1K.

I guess that we have in Stamm an unsuspected Swiss contender for the victory. He was discussing the first places some weeks back, he had big problems, went to the top of his mast with the boat sailing at speed (quite incredibly that), repaired his light geenaker, recovered brilliantly and his back again on the head of the race (4th now). Great sailing, great sailor

...


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## PCP

*New boat: Dufour 410 Grand Large*


















































































Technical Characteristics:

Dufour 410 Grand Large

LOA: 12,35 m
HL: 11,98 m
LWL: 11,15 m
Beam: 4,20 m
Displ.: 9430 kg
Ball: 2600kg
Draft: 2,10 m
Fuel Tankage: 200 l
Engine: 30 cv
Main: 38 mq
Genoa: 33 mq

.................................................................*COMMENTS?*

...


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## Faster

I like much of what Dufour has been doing, but even among the recent crop of plumb stemmed boats I find these boats particularly 'boxy' in profile.. not exactly pretty.. I think the sheer must be more parallel to the DWL than most others....


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## hannah2

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Well, I was 100% right, how coll is that
> 
> Jean-Pierre is leading, making 20.3K and with an advantage of 11.7Nm over Armel that is making 19.7K. That lateral distance has almost disapered and we will have a drag race again.
> 
> François also recovered to Armel and it is only at 25.7Nm, about the same distance that separated him from Armel when they went for different strategic options. He is making 19.9K, he is close to the same course as Jean-Pierre and have maintained the same distance to Jean-Pierre.
> 
> The two big winners of the last days were Jean-Pierre that won 97Nm to Armel, since they went to different strategic options and Stamm that won 85nm to Armel and it is now at 78Nm from Armel. He is sailing in about the same course has Armel and doing 20.1K.
> I guess that we have in Stamm an unsuspected Swiss contender for the victory. He was discussing the first places some weeks back, he had big problems, went to the top of his mast with the boat sailing at speed (quite incredibly that), repaired his light geenaker, recovered brilliantly and his back again on the head of the race (4th now). Great sailing, great sailor
> 
> ...


 Yup, right back together again. In 48 hours a new low will form right below Cape Hope. Not a big low but 30 knots of wind. I think the lead boats will make it to the ESE side of the forming low in time and have wind on the port beam then tailing off to a broad reach. But the boats further behind may have it on the nose for a day or so as they approach the bottom side of the low, and thats maybe the boats only 200 miles behind. If I understand the ice boundry rule right the boats must stay above the ice line and that will keep the bit slower boats in around the low 40's as they east around Hope and that puts them in a place with easterly winds. Does anyone know how far down the east African current goes south? If it goes down into the 40's that could help make things get really messy with lots of different wave trains once the boats get into the lower west Indian ocean just as they pass S. Africa.

Fun stuff, I'm starting to get used to how fast these boats go now. By the way the poor get poorer as the group of boats that are way behind will have poor winds in the coming days and falling even further behind.

Cheers


----------



## PCP

*Pictures, great pictures.*

Come on guys, more comments on the Dufour 410 and while we wait some fantastic poctures:

Right of way: Get out of the way!!!!










Childen's playground on a 40class racer that is circumnavigating....with the family


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*



hannah2 said:


> Yup, right back together again. In 48 hours a new low will form right below Cape Hope. Not a big low but 30 knots of wind. I think the lead boats will make it to the ESE side of the forming low in time and have wind on the port beam then tailing off to a broad reach. But the boats further behind may have it on the nose for a day or so as they approach the bottom side of the low, and thats maybe the boats only 200 miles behind. If I understand the ice boundry rule right the boats must stay above the ice line and that will keep the bit slower boats in around the low 40's as they east around Hope and that puts them in a place with easterly winds. Does anyone know how far down the east African current goes south? If it goes down into the 40's that could help make things get really messy with lots of different wave trains once the boats get into the lower west Indian ocean just as they pass S. Africa.
> 
> Fun stuff, I'm starting to get used to how fast these boats go now. By the way the poor get poorer as the group of boats that are way behind will have poor winds in the coming days and falling even further behind.
> 
> Cheers


Jesus I have enough trouble just following and trying to understand the options of the lead pack. I have no time to look at the problems of the guys behind so I don't know if I agree or not

What I know is that the Drag race will finish, or has already finished and we will have a tactical play again to pass that gate that is surrounded by variable and weak winds.

I guess that some will try to approach it by the North, others by South of it. It seems that both ways have vantages and disadvantages. The only thing I know is that both ways are tricky.

By the way, they don't have to be North or South of the gate, they have just to pass it. If they will enter it by North, they just have to pass it again on the South to North direction.

And the race continues as hot as if it is was a sprint race: those guys just don't like to be 2th, or 3th Armel has managed to recover the lead. He has an advantage of 6.9Nm over Jean-Pierre while François is closing on both and it is now only at 14nm from the lead. They are making respectively 16.1K, 19.3K and 20.2K so that Armel lead is not probably going to last.

Meanwhile Stamm maintains his position and lost very little to the leaser (1.5Nm) but as won distance regarding Jean-Pierre. He is making 16.1K.

Great racing!!!!! I am tired just to look at what these guys are doing This is a crazy rhythm. Can they maintain it?

The rhythm is so hard that François only managed to keep his new 24hour world record for solo sailing....for a 24 hours

*Yesterday, between 4am GMT Friday 30th November to 4am GMT Saturday 1st December Jean-Pierre Dick (Virbac Paprec 3) travelled from point to point, 498.80 miles in twenty-four hours, averaging speeds of 20.8 knots. This breaks the record held previously by Alex Thomson in 2003 and, also the record set the day before, subject to ratification, by François Gabart (MACIF), of 482.91 miles in 24hrs. Confirmation of the record is subject to validation by the WSSRC (World Speed Sailing Record Council).*

They are almost on top of the 500Nm record and I guess that one of these guys is going to get it on this race.

On the day video at the end just *don't lose the images of Tanguy on top of the mast*. That is really a big mast





Day 22 highlights - Saturday, December 1, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Cheers

Paulo


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## HMoll

Like in the D36P, I like everything I SEE in the new D410, but it needs to shed weight. Thanks for posting!. I thought they would come out with a Performance 40' first. Looked at their website, and it seems they are also launching a new 380GL and a 450 GL.


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 410 Grand Large*



PCP said:


> Technical Characteristics:
> 
> Dufour 410 Grand Large
> 
> LOA: 12,35 m
> HL: 11,98 m
> LWL: 11,15 m
> Beam: 4,20 m
> Displ.: 9430 kg
> Ball: 2600kg
> Draft: 2,10 m
> Fuel Tankage: 200 l
> Engine: 30 cv
> Main: 38 mq
> Genoa: 33 mq
> 
> .................................................................*COMMENTS?*
> 
> ...





Faster said:


> I like much of what Dufour has been doing, but even among the recent crop of plumb stemmed boats I find these boats particularly 'boxy' in profile.. not exactly pretty.. I think the sheer must be more parallel to the DWL than most others....





HMoll said:


> Like in the D36P, I like everything I SEE in the new D410, but it needs to shed weight. Thanks for posting!.


I like the overall design (graphically speaking) even if I prefer boats less beamier. But I understand the concept in what regards to having a more stable platform and a boat that heels less for the average cruiser that wants his boat mostly to sail downwind and will not sail with a head on wind. After all the vast majority of cruisers motor on those conditions, so yes, this boat makes sense. The boat was bettered in that respect in what regards the previous model, the 405. This one is considerably more beamy (4.20 to 3.98m) and has all beam brought back.

This is, as the last Dufour a Felci design so I have no doubt that it is an efficient and well designed boat for what it is intended to do but I fail to understand why the previous boat weighted 8 990kg and this one 9 430kg. Weight certainly is not an advantage and serves no purpose. Maybe the bigger volume of this boat? Anyway I don't like that extra weight.

Like on the previous model I don't like the B/D ratio of this boat, that is on the low side: 27.5%. I know that it is a bit better than the one of the 405 and this boat has more draft (2.10 for 2.03). This two factors and a substantially bigger beam will give it a bigger RM compared with the previous model, but than it is needed because the boat will have more wave drag and more wet area (more heavier).

I did not saw the keel design but I don't believe that it will be less modern than on the previous model and then we are talking about a torpedo keel with all the ballast down. That will give to this boat a sufficient AVS, but I like boats with a bigger part of its stability coming from the ballast. This boat will sail well, I am sure, in almost all conditions, except close against the wind in a blow were the power needed to overcome the waves and the added wave drag will not be probably enough for a good speed. The boat will heel and the ballast will not be able to give him that extra pull to cope well with those conditions.

Other mass productions boats will do better on those conditions.

Regarding the sail area I don't understand also why the previous boat that was 560kg lighter and had less have drag had more sail upwind (81.90m2 to 71.0m2). That is a big difference and hardly understandable since this boat has more RM and can therefore carry more sail.

A jeanneau 409, that has a better B/D ratio (30%), less beam (3.99m) and weights 1980kg less has more 7m2 of sail and I am not talking about the performance version but about the standard one.

I guess the infusion process is responsible for that big weight difference, but I really don't see how the Dufour 410 can compete with the jeanneau 409, that seems just a better sailing boat. I have also looked recently to other boats on this class and remember that the Hanse 415 has a performance almost as good as the one from the Jeanneau.

The Hanse 415 is, in what regards the hull more similar to the Dufour, both boats have a similar beam and the Hanse is even heavier, weighting more 530kg but it has a much better B/D ratio (32.5%), having a bigger RM and carries more 16m2 of sail and that is a lot.

So I guess I don't like very much the Dufour in what likes its general sailing picture.

Regarding the interior it is a bit risky to talk only about designs but I would say that it seems nice, following the general tendency of a polivalent chart table but I don't like the galley. I mean, it seems big enough but will not offer any support for the back, so I guess that on that one if on the sea you will have to tack the boat to the right side, or maybe the boat heels so little than that it would not be necessary, especially because the boat really only heels hard when pressed against the wind and again, the ones that are going to do buy this boat will not do that (or they have chosen the wrong boat) and therefore all is well

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Sapwraia

*Re: Dufour 410 Grand Large*



PCP said:


> This boat will sail well, I am sure, in almost all conditions, except close against the wind in a blow were the power needed to overcome the waves and the added wave drag will not be probably enough for a good speed. The boat will heel and the ballast will not be able to give him that extra pull to cope well with those conditions.


Paulo, that assesment is spot on - we chartered a 405 last summer in the Med for a week. Not much fun over 20 knots upwind, especially with a building sea. Sail reduction becomes an urgent thing; we did 20 miles to windward just a mile off the Turkish coast into a gusty sou-wester (28-35 knots). At a reasonable angle of heel in lively seas that's a long way (to fall) between the 2 wheels with not a lot to hang onto apart from the wheel. Undersized genoa winches didn't help either. The flat bow sections just pounded as there was never enough speed available that close to the wind 

The 405 (and presumably the 410) certainly do what they're primarily designed for - easy family coastal cruising and as a living platform at anchor in a beautiful cove it does it quite well. A nice stable downwind boat but our inshore upwind experience showed that "coastal cruiser" is not a genre of vessel which can happily ignore that scenario - often coastal weather conditions can be more severe that offshore in terms of wave / sea state, and proximity to a leeward shore is always on one's mind 

Some particular points about these latest Dufours (our 405 was delivered new in early 2012) - this charter operator almost exclusively uses them (mainly 375's and smaller) - the shore crew are a useful source of feedback after a few beers ! hull moulding, gel coat, non-skid etc very good and our boat still looked brand new in that respect.

Down below was a different matter - notwithstanding the additional wear & tear a charter yacht gets, the finishes already looked 3 years old with veneers worn thru, chipping & peeling in all the vulnerable places. Locker catches breaking regularly etc. Halogen lighting was quite sophisticated and useful but electrical charging systems were a problem on our boat and others too, with limited Dufour support for a solution.

Volume in the main saloon is BIG - and not a place to be upwind in rough weather !

One other fitting which had been removed is the standard transom platform recessed swim ladder which are quite flimsy and apparently only last a matter of months; so are replaced by a more substantial ladder bolted to the stbd side of the transom - not a great look but works well.

Of course this is all in context that these boats don't cost much money in the relative scheme of things - apparently our 405 had been bought new with all gear by the charter company for EUR150k. It seems Dufour were also doing great deals on 2 cabin 375's as they'd mis-calculated demand for that configuration and keen to clear the stock.

If one accepts that these yachts are primarily designed with warm weather charter in mind, then maybe they're a good blend of requirements for the price.

One other observation about cruising boats where the max beam dimension is at the stern : for med style stern-to berthing, esp when you're going for a space which is only just wide enough (and some cross wind) it's not ideal to be leading with your max beam (esp two square corners which can't easily be fendered). Much easier to slip into one of these slots with max beam further forward !


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dufour 410 Grand Large*



Sapwraia said:


> Paulo, that assesment is spot on - we chartered a 405 last summer in the Med for a week. Not much fun over 20 knots upwind, especially with a building sea. Sail reduction becomes an urgent thing; we did 20 miles to windward just a mile off the Turkish coast into a gusty sou-wester (28-35 knots). At a reasonable angle of heel in lively seas that's a long way (to fall) between the 2 wheels with not a lot to hang onto apart from the wheel. Undersized genoa winches didn't help either. The flat bow sections just pounded as there was never enough speed available that close to the wind
> 
> The 405 (and presumably the 410) certainly do what they're primarily designed for - easy family coastal cruising and as a living platform at anchor in a beautiful cove it does it quite well. A nice stable downwind boat but our inshore upwind experience showed that "coastal cruiser" is not a genre of vessel which can happily ignore that scenario - often coastal weather conditions can be more severe that offshore in terms of wave / sea state, and proximity to a leeward shore is always on one's mind
> 
> Some particular points about these latest Dufours (our 405 was delivered new in early 2012) - this charter operator almost exclusively uses them (mainly 375's and smaller) - the shore crew are a useful source of feedback after a few beers ! hull moulding, gel coat, non-skid etc very good and our boat still looked brand new in that respect.
> 
> Down below was a different matter - notwithstanding the additional wear & tear a charter yacht gets, the finishes already looked 3 years old with veneers worn thru, chipping & peeling in all the vulnerable places. Locker catches breaking regularly etc. Halogen lighting was quite sophisticated and useful but electrical charging systems were a problem on our boat and others too, with limited Dufour support for a solution.
> 
> Volume in the main saloon is BIG - and not a place to be upwind in rough weather !
> 
> One other fitting which had been removed is the standard transom platform recessed swim ladder which are quite flimsy and apparently only last a matter of months; so are replaced by a more substantial ladder bolted to the stbd side of the transom - not a great look but works well.
> 
> Of course this is all in context that these boats don't cost much money in the relative scheme of things - apparently our 405 had been bought new with all gear by the charter company for EUR150k. It seems Dufour were also doing great deals on 2 cabin 375's as they'd mis-calculated demand for that configuration and keen to clear the stock.
> 
> If one accepts that these yachts are primarily designed with warm weather charter in mind, then maybe they're a good blend of requirements for the price.
> 
> One other observation about cruising boats where the max beam dimension is at the stern : for med style stern-to berthing, esp when you're going for a space which is only just wide enough (and some cross wind) it's not ideal to be leading with your max beam (esp two square corners which can't easily be fendered). Much easier to slip into one of these slots with max beam further forward !


Boats are designed for a certain purpose and one designed specifically for blue-water in rough seas would be a very disagreeable one to to live and sail in the conditions we sail most of the time.

I find your opinion about the boat to harsh. Certainly I agree in what you say regarding going upwind with some substantial wind and waves, but out of those conditions and in the conditions the owners of those boats use them (that are also the conditions we use our boats also most of the time), the boat would out perform most of the boats that are very good in harsh conditions, boats designed specifically for those conditions.

Regarding charter, well, that is just a terrible thing to do to a boat. But yes, I have been also sailing on a Dufour 425 with some months and the boat just looked vandalized and probably was. I agree with you that Dufours have nice interiors but not very resistant to an harsh and not careful use but in that regard to that are not worse than most mass production boats. At least they look nice when they are new

Faster, I think that Dufour interior has improved a lot in what regards design quality but in what regards type of boat I still prefer the old 40 performance to any 40 of their line, the 410 or the 40e, so if I can say that I like their improvement in design quality I cannot say the same in what regards type of boat, particularly in what regards B/D ratio.

Off course the old hull and keel could be improved by the new developments in design and some of that difference in B/D ratio is lessened by a more efficient keel/ballast, but not all.

The older D40 performance had 3.90m of beam, weighted 7800kg and had a B/D of 36%. The new 40e has about the same beam, weights 7950kg and has a 30% of B/D ratio.

The boat is better designed in what regards hull design (transom), keel and the overall performance will be slightly better around the cans but in what regards the conditions that have been described (upwind with waves) and as a bluewater boat with good coastal abilities, the old design was just better. It had more rocker, a much bigger B/D ratio and in what regards cruising the differences in speed would be really small.

For the guys that are looking for a 5 to 8 years old 40ft cruiser at a very good price the "old" Dufour 40 performance is one of the best options, at least in my opinion.


























Regata Chocolat Factory. Maresme 2010 from Vicente Arregui on Vimeo.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe.*

I don't remember of any year where the competition was so tight. This is racing at the most higher level, those guys are given 100% and I have some difficulty in understanding how the 4 first can maintain that rhythm.

Yesterday Armel was leading, then, at the middle of the night, Jean-Pierre took the lead and now is François that is leading again after having been 3th for a week or so. Incredible racing

The three first are separated by 16Nm and the 4th is only at 69Nm from the 3th.

Drag race again for the three fist that are sailing at almost 20k and sommer will be sailing faster then that. Some strong winds ahead

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

The story of the day, Le Cam dived to free is boat from a net:

*Jean Le Cam (SynerCiel) realised last night that he was slowing down and that all was not well with his Bruce Farr designed Open 60. After a thorough examination of his boat, and asking himself many questions about the set up, he realised that his problem was below the waterline. The following morning, he checked under his hull and realised a fishing net was stuck around his lower part of his keel.

After three failed attempts to get rid of the net by moving his boat, the SynerCiel skipper eventually decided that he was left with no choice but to dive under it, which took around thirty minutes at 10am GMT this morning. He stopped the boat, put on his scuba diving equipment and took his knife with him. Everything went well and SynerCiel is now back in the race.

At midday, Jean Le Cam called his team and explained: "After trying everything I could to get rid of that net, I had no choice, I had to dive. I geared up, stopped the boat, and went for it. At first I tried to cut it all at once but it just wasn't working. I said to myself 's**t, that's not good'. So I cut one part after the other and it worked out. It was a huge net!"

Despite being born to sail Jean Le Cam, nicknamed 'Le Roi Jean', or King Jean, does not like swimming at all, so it was very grumpy King that was forced to make like a rebellious fish, and cut himself free of the net today.

The incident has cost him a few miles and a place in the rankings to Mike Golding but he is now back in action and returns to his the warpath.*





Day 23 highlights - Sunday, December 2, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## hannah2

The 3 leaders can see each other on radar. Amazing this far into the race.


----------



## PCP

*vendee Globe*

Yes and they had been closer. The kid (François) is going away slowly (I hope he does not break the boat) increasing the distance to everybody.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Cartographie

The resume of the 3th weeK:


----------



## PCP

*That's sailing: Great movies*


----------



## Sapwraia

Short board windsurfing's a huge buzz - deep respect for the guys doing it on big waves - I found small wave sailing a physically challenging pursuit - and that was when I was young & frisky  Time on windsurfers did help to refresh my dinghy techniques, in the same way now that time in a Laser helps to refresh the way you helm a 40 footer (even when cruising !) - how many times have you heard from the family "Dad we're not racing this is a family cruising holiday"  I say "thanks for the feedback now just wind the genoa in some more "


----------



## PCP

By mistake last night I repeated two movies instead of posting this one. This guy not only sails up big waves as it fly over them...and never stops sailing. Enjoy








Sapwraia said:


> ...a Laser helps to refresh the way you helm a 40 footer (even when cruising !) - how many times have you heard from the family "Dad we're not racing this is a family cruising holiday"  *I say "thanks for the feedback now just wind the genoa in some more *"


I am lucky; even if my wife can say something like that things are balanced and I never heard *"Dad we're not racing this is a family cruising holiday*" more like "Dad, why are you reefing? Stay on the wheel let me take care of the sails and let's having fun". Fact is that I have a problem with the boy (now 21) that since a kid was bored with sailing except when it was going very fast. At the age of 12 if I let him he would stay all night at the wheel with 25/30K winds surfing waves at 10K 
Even my wife hates to be overtaken by other boats.

Take a look at another movie of that little boat, that I am convinced, it is a great boat, the XP 33.






Of course, they are sailing it with a crew but even so those speeds are impressive for a 33ft mass production performance cruiser:

With* 20K wind, upwind speed 6.8/7.2K, downwind speed 14.8K*, are speeds that many bigger boats would have difficulty in achieving and in what regards downwind would not achieve at all. There are many boats that are good downwind but few that are fast downwind....and upwind.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Sapwraia

The XP-33 looks like a great production boat package at that size with nice hull lines and generally a simple set-up - almost as if X-boats going one better than J-boats. Will be interesting to see it's IRC rating. 

The funny thing about my family is they'll say "we're cruising, relax, it's not a race" followed soon after "why is that other boat going faster than us ? "


----------



## PCP

*Transat classique*

Not only fast performance boats owners like to race, the owners of slower but not less beautiful old ladies like that too.

A lot of boats (12) on the the Cascais - Barbuda Panerai Classique Transat.

You can follow the race here:

L

Transat Classique 2012

With 10k wind on the back they are making 6/6.5K speed. Not bad for old ladies.


----------



## hannah2

Sapwraia said:


> Short board windsurfing's a huge buzz - deep respect for the guys doing it on big waves - I found small wave sailing a physically challenging pursuit - and that was when I was young & frisky  Time on windsurfers did help to refresh my dinghy techniques, in the same way now that time in a Laser helps to refresh the way you helm a 40 footer (even when cruising !) - how many times have you heard from the family "Dad we're not racing this is a family cruising holiday"  I say "thanks for the feedback now just wind the genoa in some more "


Wow, I remember when Jason Polakow arrived on Maui as a 16 year old from Austrailia. He came without his family but had their blessing, he had his own place, enrolled in high school and windsurfed. We thought he would be too young to sail the big winter north swell at Maui's Hookipa. But within his first winter he was among the very best. It is good to see he did not burn out like so many in those days did in the early 90's with booze and drugs.

Jaws in those days was just a dream, we knew it existed, we would go sit on the cliff in the cane field and watch it go off for hours. It was not till Laird Hamilton and the gang figured out you could use a jet ski to tow in and that was about 1993 that anyone was able to ride the wave. I believe it was Josh Angulo who was the first wind surfer to ride the wave.

For those who don't know that in order to surf or wind surf Jaws one must put his jet ski in the water about 15 miles from the break then find a way outside the surf line and travel down the coast. The put in place is a little cove and on big swell days there is always the chance a very large wave will come ashore all the way to where people park their jet ski trailers. I remember a few trucks and trailers were not in the parking lot when the guys got back to the cove.

Thanks PCP for the vid, I'm too old to ride them anymore but I still dream it and wake up muscles tense and pumped.

Cheers


----------



## PCP

*out of topic: surf*



hannah2 said:


> Wow, I remember when Jason Polakow arrived on Maui as a 16 year old from Austrailia. He came without his family but had their blessing, he had his own place, enrolled in high school and windsurfed. We thought he would be too young to sail the big winter north swell at Maui's Hookipa. But within his first winter he was among the very best. It is good to see he did not burn out like so many in those days did in the early 90's with booze and drugs.
> 
> Jaws in those days was just a dream, we knew it existed, we would go sit on the cliff in the cane field and watch it go off for hours. It was not till Laird Hamilton and the gang figured out you could use a jet ski to tow in and that was about 1993 that anyone was able to ride the wave. I believe it was Josh Angulo who was the first wind surfer to ride the wave.
> 
> For those who don't know that in order to surf or wind surf Jaws one must put his jet ski in the water about 15 miles from the break then find a way outside the surf line and travel down the coast. The put in place is a little cove and on big swell days there is always the chance a very large wave will come ashore all the way to where people park their jet ski trailers. I remember a few trucks and trailers were not in the parking lot when the guys got back to the cove.
> 
> Thanks PCP for the vid, I'm too old to ride them anymore but I still dream it and wake up muscles tense and pumped.
> 
> Cheers


Surf was before my time. In Europe it arrived later and in the 60 and 70's what was hot was Spearfishing and we were all good at it. When the first Surfers start to appear (mostly Australians) on our spot we just drive them away hunting sharks and showing them around saying that they were killers

You know we dived in the middle of the waves in much the same spot they used to surf. We where used to the waves but having guys passing over at speed seemed just not right and it was really dangerous.

However with our generation spear-diving went out of fashion and the Surf come in. Actually that place is the best Surfing spot in Portugal and one of best in Europe. It is the place where is held the Portuguese round of the world surfing championship.

On the 80's long before I had saw a surfing kayak I learned to do the thing with a canoe and at best of my form I could stay all afternoon surfing without never capsizing the boat. I did not even used a rubber suit.

But that history about jaws surfing and brag about Maui's Hookipa waves, well we don't call them jaws but we have them bigger


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Incredible!!!!! Not only Armel is leading again as he is the owner of the new race record for the fastest Open 60 from Les Sables d'Olonne to the Cape of Good Hope.

The leadership should change again quickly because François went South and I think he is in the best position for the next two days. I believe that Stamm that is also diving South has a good chance to continue to close on the leading trio. HOT RACE, do hot that it is just unbelievable 

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

*The Jackal, Armel Le Cléac'h (Banque Populaire) is the new race record holder for the fastest Open 60 from Les Sables d'Olonne to the Cape of Good Hope, clocking a time of 22 days 23 hours 48 minutes and managing to knock an astounding 24 hours 2 hours and 22 minutes off the record set by Vincent Riou in the 2004 edition of the Vendée Globe.

But the leading trio, lead by Armel Le Cléac'h (Banque Populaire) but with Jean-Pierre Dick (Virbac Paprec 3) and François Gabart (MACIF) hot on his tail are engaged in a fight with unusual intensity. It will be recorded in the annals of Vendée Globe history as one of the fiercest charges into the Indian Ocean as the three pretenders shuffle continually up and down the leaderboard each day.*

Let's have a look at Axel's race and to an amazing interview in direct for the British TV





Alex Thomson's race highlights - Week 3 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe and ARC*

Vendee Globe, 3/12 highlights:


----------



## robelz

Didn't Armel cross the gate? And what about Stamm? Or did they change the gate and the tracking is outdated?


----------



## blt2ski

Not sure if posted, but here is page 1 & 2 of the sf3600 brochure

HERE is pg 3 & 4

Brochre is provisional I might add too!

Marty


----------



## PCP

yachtcharter said:


> you got a height of information about sailboats. you should make your website, so that more people get information from it. i *hire a yacht in Dubai* once, now from your information i can know the inner details of it.


Thanks. If I would make it that way I would make some money with it over paid publicity and that would have me tied to the thing. I sail/cruise 3 or 4 months in a year and I don't want internet or any complication in my live on those periods, so look at this ad just a temporary hobby to me, one that I can leave at any time.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Didn't Armel cross the gate? And what about Stamm? Or did they change the gate and the tracking is outdated?


Yes you are right and I have posted misleading information about it. That is a strange kind of gate it seems that you can pass it on any direction or just stay over it. Armel was not the only one that had not crossed it, Stamm did not cross it also.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau 3600*



blt2ski said:


> Not sure if posted, but here is page 1 & 2 of the sf3600 brochure
> 
> HERE is pg 3 & 4
> 
> Brochre is provisional I might add too!
> 
> Marty


Thanks Marty. Almost all those pictures were posted but that PDF gives new information even if none in what regards the interior that seems to be the negative part of this boat, in what regards performance cruising. However I could not access the internet pages you have posted. They ask me to log in

I guess that you are refereeing to this:

http://www.navark.se/wp-content/uploads/navark/Broschyr_sf3600.pdf

The new images:



















The overall shape of the hull seems great to me for a 36ft boat but the only access to cockpit storage is very small. Even if the space is considerable, as I suppose, it would have a difficult access. Given the storage space it is certain that for cruising, or even offshore racing this is a one cabin only boat since the other cabin would be full of stuff (4 persons anyway). If so it is difficult to understand why one of the cabins has not a cockpit access, like for instance on the J 111.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dufour 410 Grand Large*



Sapwraia said:


> Paulo, that assesment is spot on - we chartered a 405 last summer in the Med for a week. Not much fun over 20 knots upwind, especially with a building sea. Sail reduction becomes an urgent thing; we did 20 miles to windward just a mile off the Turkish coast into a gusty sou-wester (28-35 knots). ... The flat bow sections just pounded as there was never enough speed available that close to the wind
> 
> ..A nice stable downwind boat but our inshore upwind experience showed that "coastal cruiser" is not a genre of vessel which can happily ignore that scenario - often coastal weather conditions can be more severe that offshore in terms of wave / sea state, and proximity to a leeward shore is always on one's mind
> 
> ...!


Again coming back to the 410, and that type of boats that are particularly beamy with a relatively small B/D ratio and I mean beamy boats with a modern keels with ballast ratios between 24% and 28%, Yacht magazine made recently a comparative boat test that is exemplar.

They compared in the water a Jeanneau 30i with older boats, a Halberg-Rassy 29 and a vindo 40ft long keel, all the boats on the water with short waves and against wind of 20K and over.

The Jeanneau, that has a B/D ratio of only 24% on those conditions could not generate enough poor to match the performance of those older boats. Put it on even more severe conditions and the results would be even worse.

I am quite sure that with flat water the jeanneau would easely out perform at least the boat with the same size ans even probably the bigger boat. I am talking about 20K wind, with weak winds the Jeanneau would just disappear on the horizon.

This problem is a generic problem with these type of boats, I am thinking for instance on the Oceanis 41. The Dufour 410 would not even be among the worst since it has a better B/D than the Jeanneau 30i and also better than the Oceanis 41. There are boats with this kind of beamy hull and a much better B/D. These ones like the new Hanse 415 would have a better performance since they can generate more power, but at the cost of a bigger pounding.

A boat like the XP33 would have smoked those two oldies even upwind. It is a boat not as beamy as the Jeanneau and with a much bigger B/D and that means not only less pounding (and wave drag) but also a lot more power for the same heeling. The mass production boats that are not so beamy and have a bigger B/D ratio are those that are called performance cruisers, like the Salona, the First, the Xp, Jboats or the Comet. That's why some sailors that have no racing in their minds prefer those boats over the typical mass production cruiser, I mean, for cruising.

As I have said, for cruisers that just don't go upwind with winds over 13/15K, and that are most cruisers, mass productions cruisers offer a bigger interior, a more stable platform in most occasions as well as a boat that offers very good overall speed (except on that particular case).

For the ones that think I am exaggerating when I say that most cruisers don't go upwind with a considerable wind I remember the words of my wive this summer on one of the more frequented sailboat European zones: " Only you go upwind with this weather" she complained (she was seasick) while I enjoyed myself discovering the good performance of my boat on those conditions, close against the wind with 1.5/2.0m short period waves and 18K wind. I looked around hooping to show her some other boats. bad luck, in all horizon I could see some sailboats....all going downwind, except one that was pounding heavily, motoring upwind.

Don't miss the* VIDEO*:

http://tv.yacht.de/video/In-der-Wel...n-Kurzkieler/f9902b1f76422139b09fe7474f4a4545

regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

The race continues with an incredible pace. Armel has managed to maintain the lead, François had overtaken Jean-Pierre and maintain about the same distance to Armel. Stamm gained some miles.

For the next gate I believe there are two ways: one passing over it and I think that it is what Armel is going to do and other one crossing it from below. Stamm is probably going to cross it coming from bellow. François and Jean-Pierre can go either way. It seems to me that for a day or so Armel will have advantage but then it is possible that he enters a zone with weak winds.

Stamm will have a worse wind angle but will have wind all the way. I don't know what is better but I start to have a huge respect for Armel that is managing to pass without losing much speed in zones that seems that are going to slow him down a lot. So....

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





Day 25 highlights - Tuesday, December 4, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Swiss and sailing*

Swiss never ceases to amaze me in what regards sailing: how a small country with less people than New York, without sea or any sea tradition has managed to won 2 Americas cup and have two top sailors competing in the Vendee Globe?

In fact on of them, Stamm is on the leading pack and I guess it is one of the five I think is going to win the race. The other one is Dominique and he is far from being the last, racing on the second pack (7th now). These guys an Alinghy have been raising in the country a lot of interest in sailing and sailing is on the rise in Swiss. let's have a look at the kids and at the old timers






Swiss Sailing Promo Video 2011 from VIDEO.JUERGKAUFMANN.COM on Vimeo.





Bernard Stamm's portrait _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Dominique Wavre's portrait _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

The pages I refered to a downloadable pdf's, that do show the info in the link you had!

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Something happened to the kid François is stopped and is out of the classification. This means he had given up, retiring from the race. Something bad happened to him or the boat. No news about that yet.


----------



## robelz

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Something happened to the kid François is stopped and is out of the classification. This means he had given up, retiring from the race. Something bad happened to him or the boat. No news about that yet.


Sure? Tracking only says he is "not located", meaning there is no GPS Signal...

Or am I wrong?


----------



## robelz

Gabart was not polled on the early morning schedule but is known to be in good shape in second around 20 miles behind Le Cléac’h.

From the official homepage...


----------



## robelz

And there he is in the 9am ranking, placed 2nd, 12 miles behind the jackal...


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*



robelz said:


> And there he is in the 9am ranking, placed 2nd, 12 miles behind the jackal...


Sorry, I was out. And happily François stopped boat was not a problem with him or the boat but only an electronic glitch . I am very happy that it is so.

The race is better than ever and in 24 hours, as I have previewed they will find very difficult conditions and I am not talking about stormy conditions but quite the opposite: almost no wind at that gate.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

Regarding what I have said last night regarding the two ways to pass that gate (North and South) it is clear know that the best way from the South and the leading trio that was pointing to pass it North (following Armel) are now coming down to pass it from South. of course, this means that the ones that have been pointing South since the beginning had won a lot of miles and they are Stamm and Alex.

Since the moment they were almost all at the same latitude, till choosing the best strategy to pass the next gate and the high pressure center that is over it, Stamm gained to the leader 25.2Nm and Alex 10.8Nm and I bet they are going to continue to win for some more time. Stamm is only at 10kn from the third and it is possible that in 24 hours he can catch Jean-Pierre and overtake him.

That would be great after the problems that had slowed down Stamm. Let's see again those incredible images of him going up that mast, at speed with the boat pounding heavily on waves. I confess that I had never saw that, I mean a guy going up on the mast without slowing down a lot, or stop





Bernard Stamm grimpe en tête de mât _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau 57*

Not a new boat, It was released in 2009. Why post about it? Well do you know of any boat with more than 55ft that in the last 3 years have sold more than 100 boats? Its that is truly amazing in these years of crisis and that means something. Contrary to what many people think sailors chose the right boats to buy, the ones that go with their sailing program/money almost always if not always a best seller is a great boat for what was designed for. This one is no exception.

This is a Philip Briand (Hull) and Garroni (interior) design, and a very good one, that is built by Jeanneau at a very competitive price, not to say low because it seems a bit ridiculous to talk about low when we are talking about a bit less than half a million of Euros. Go and see what you would buy with that on Halberg Rassy or XC yachts and you will be surprised about the difference in size. The quality is also good, better than in smaller Jeanneau.

I like the boat a lot, regarding conception and interior design. This boat has a very modern hull/Keel/ruder and even what regards B/D (31%) it has one that in a boat with this size and weight (21 450kg) is more than adequate.

I also like the interior and that garage with winch and all that is needed to put a dingy of considerable size inside without any effort. It is a fast boat too.

The only think I don't like in the overall design is the transom design that looks a bit voluminous. I understand that there the design is complicated by the needs of the garage and also in what regards the height needed by that master aft room, but even so I think they could have done better.

Have a look:


----------



## PCP

*Stupid sailor having luck*


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

They are trying to pass the gate before the Anti-cyclone is on the way but I guess they will get weak wind over the gate.

As previewed Stamm is almost catching Jean-Pierre and is winning miles to everyone. Only 2.4Nm to pass it and have won also some miles to the leader.

Alex is confusing me. Where the hell is he going? the only explanation I can get is that he thinks everybody is going to get caught on that high and that he is coming charging from the South with the wind on a much better angle. It seems a long shot to me

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

Today's movie: they keep charging: This is a fast vendee Globe





Day 26 highlights - Wednesday, December 5, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*ARC news*

and interesting news they are

On the racing division, surprise surprise, a 40ft boat has very good chances not only to win the race but to get line honors too, I mean win in real time. The 40ft is racing against for instance a Swan 80

The boat is this one, Vaquita, a 40class racer:






And the surprises don't finish here, just behind that Swan 80 comes a very special 54ft, a performance cruising boat the JP54, a Guillaume Verdier design and a concept by Jean- Pierre (3th on the vendee Globe right now) regarding what is for him a perfect cruising boat. You can see him on this video talking about the JP54:











The surprises doesn't finish with the JP54. Not far away comes the new Pogo 50 performance cruiser, a much more simple and incredibly less expensive boat. Amazing how the Pogo is near that Swan 80 and ahead of a Carol Marine 60 a 1999 Farr racing design. There is one for sale and they say about the Carol marine 60:

*The last (and considered the fastest) of the three race designed Farr 60's she and her sisterships continue to dominate the winners circles. One sistership won three major NYYC awards this past Summer of 2010 and S&S has been dominating on the West coast.*

Well, it seems that it is not a match in a Transat for a 2012 "cheap" cruising Pogo 50, that even has a swinging keel to go to the beach











You can follow the race here:

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

...


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Super interesting:

Armel was the only one that tried to pass the gate on the most direct route and has I have previewed he got caught in weak winds and is making only 5.8k speed. He will be in trouble for 10 hours or so. If he can make it still in the lead he will will be deserving the title of Champion of the weak winds: That's the second time he have attempted a stunt like that. The first time all specialists were saying that he would not make it without losing lots of time... and he did it. Can he make it a second time?

All the others have followed Alex and dived South. Alex is already changed course and is pointing to the gate and the others will follow soon.

In fact it seems that on this Video, that has posted more recently than the last course actualization, François is already pointing to the gate...at speed. However after crossing it he will also have a zone with weak winds and he knows that when he says: "I am going to cross the gate and after that...we will see"





Armel Le Cléac'h avant la porte Crozet _por VendeeGlobeTV_

The organization is giving first place to François but I think that Armel has played masterfully again: Maybe he will lose some miles now but then we will be much more South then the others, getting more wind and going like a rocket.

I hope he gets lucky with the icebergs because I think he is going to dive South, a lot, before turning to the next gate and somewhere along the way he has a very good chance to beat the 24 hours world speed record again on this race.

Regarding speed, Alex told the press that he had been several times over 30K. One man on a boat over 30K, that is frightening. One thing is going over 30 on a VOR with 11 guys, one at the wheel and two guys controlling each sail. One guy controlling everything at over 30K? Jesus

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

...


----------



## PCP

*ARC - cruising division*

The boat that is leading the cruising division is a big one but far from being the bigger one on the fleet. It is a 62ft but it has such a big advantage to everybody else (except a smaller sister) that deserves a big praise here. It is not even a performance boat, just a very good bluewater boat, even if its performance looks like one from a performance boat.

It's the boat that won last year European boat of the year contest in the category of Luxury yachts, the Oyster 625. The testers said that they were impressed with its sailing performance, well it seems they were not the only ones, I am impressed too Have a look at the boat. It does not like a fast boat to me. Appearances can be deceiving, but that's a luxury boat for sure






To the North, there is an older Oyster 565 doing almost as well or even better if we compare the size. Great ocean cruising boats the Oysters, but I guess that all know that, as all know also that they are expensive

On the next size of boats the distinction goes to a Swann 48. The boat is one of Swan bestsellers, a recent model (1995/2003) designed by German Frers, a fast boat that can do very well in heavy weather. A very expensive boat, like all the Swan, a performance cruiser with a good cruising interior.






Then a reference to Ocean cruising cats that as usual, on a downwind Transat are faster then comparatively sized monohulls. The one that is making better regarding its size is a Catana 431 that is not far from that Swan 48.

The catana 431 is not a new boat (it has about the same age of that Swan) and has been replaced in the Catana range by the 42 (or the 47):






Some images of the boat and the current Catana range






an then, two boats are impressing me, one because it is just a bluewater cruising boat with no performance in mind doing amazingly well, the other that should be theoretically faster, but it is slightly behind, is a bigger inexpensive mass production boat, the first of the inexpensive modern boats (if we don't consider the Pogo 50 that is on the racing series), a Hanse 531 that manages to be ahead of a First 50. The other one, the one that is not a performance boat, that is ahead of these two is a favorite of mine, a XC-50, a production bluewater boat in the same class of Halberg-Rassy and as that one, a great but expensive sailboat.






the 431 has been replaced recently by the Hanse 445. This is the 431:






This is the 445






I will leave the boats below 50ft for another post

...


----------



## robelz

Looks like those who passed Aiguilles Gate do not have to pass Crozet and vice versa, is this true?


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*



robelz said:


> Looks like those who passed Aiguilles Gate do not have to pass Crozet and vice versa, is this true?


No

I have translated from the French since this seems not to be in the English pages:

*"How these gates work is not rocket science. A gate is a segment of points on the same latitude, longitude between two defined points. The spacing between these two longitudes points is about 400 miles, or a day and a half of navigation. The course consists of four to six or seven gates, spaced from 800 to 2000 miles. To validate their passage, they have just to be North at least one point of latitude located on the segment that constitutes the gate. It is therefore possible to cross the gate from South to North or simply to stay North of it*"

See my last post on the Vendee to understand what they are trying to do and why.

http://tracking2012.vendeeglobe.org/en/

Since then he have a new position on the race tracker and we can see that as I had previewed Stamm passed Jean-Pierre and is going up to the gate like a rocket. Of course before he arrives there he is going to stay almost without no wind

Very interesting this strategic play.

By the way do you have noticed that they have improved the information on the tracker? Now we have:

The boat speed over one hour, the speed made good over an hour, the average speed on the last 24 hours, the speed made good on that time and the distance covered. Isn't that great?

For improving things and permit us to understand better their options I only wished for a longer weather preview, one over 72 hours at least. That should not be too difficult and I don't understand why they don't have it 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*ARC news*

This one is FANTASTIC: remember talking about that Pogo 50 that is making a hell of a race, a performance cruising boat beating racing boats and not far away of incredibly expensive boats like a Swan 80 and the Jp 52 (with canting keel)?

Well, first impressive new: the crew is composed by only 5 guys and that in a 50ft boat that is racing is not many. I bet that all other boats around have a much bigger crew.

Second impressive new: Besides the owner and two second rate short crew racers, the other two are the owner of Pogo shipyard (Structures) and the boat designer, Pascal Conq. How coll is that

Other curious new: There are lot's of "cheap" mass production boats crossing the Atlantic. Many Bavarias, Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour, Hanse and many others but the two boats that retired from the race, one with a broken mast and other whose rudder just fell off are both very exclusive and expensive boats and the one that lost the rudder is reputably one of the best Blue water cruisers around for the ones that like it strong and slow: the 39 stell Motiva 39.

The one that lost the mast is a very expensive custom build Farr 585CC , a blue-water fast cruising boat.

Well, how about that? I know that can be just bad luck and good luck, depending on the cases but it is curious.

An finally let me talk about another boat that is making a great race on the racing division, a race cruiser that is letting well behind boats like a Swan 45, Swan 48 and other bigger boats, I am talking about the Grand Soleil 43, a great performance cruiser and one that I have considered having for a long time. Have a look:


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

*UAU!!!* Stamm the Swiss is leading, there should leave a lot of French pissed

Great race. I had said some days ago that it seemed to me that Stamm was in the better course but from there to leading UAU!!! what a great sailing and rooting. And right now he is doing a smart move: As I have said yesterday, they will find very weak winds crossing that gate so he is sailing parallel to that gate retarding the moment to pass it and he is going to take it perpendicularly, making the way longer but getting the better wind angle with those weak winds making sure his boat is "making" wind.

But attention, they give Armel at 138Nm from the leader (Stamm) and that is just rubbish. I still think that Armel has done the right thing and will get the lead again in two days. He has strong wind all the way and all the others will be stuck in that high near the gate and will lose a lot of time to get out of there and get decent winds again.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

Great racing, very good strategic play!!!

*quote Stamm:

The wind is definitely slowing down and we'll only know where everybody is standing once we've sailed through the gate and we're back in the wind again. In the meantime, it feels great&#8230;

Leading the Vendée Globe in the Indian Ocean is huge. It's also a quieter time on board, with easier conditions.

When the boat's speed reaches twenty knots, which happens constantly when there's wind, conditions can be pretty difficult. I don't know what it's like for the other skippers but I'm sure it's the same. It's not a cruise ship we're sailing on so whatever the actual comfort, it's still quite extreme.

Last night I came across MACIF's AIS signal. Incredible&#8230; I think he was two miles behind me, which is crazy after two weeks in the race!*

Incredible images of Dominique and Jean sailing together in the midlle of the big ocean

Jean is saying about Dominique: "*a friend and a remarkable guy (a quality person)*".

And I say to you guys that Dominique is incredible. He is 57 years old. How he can cope with that huge effort of sailing his boat solo in a racing pace for 3 months non stop is behind my comprehension. And not slow too, he is making a hell of a race. His boat is not a new one.

This guy makes me fell younger Cheers Dominique, Chapeau!!!!





SynerCiel, Mirabaud.. Et l'albatros _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Quand Mirabaud croise SynerCiel _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Mike at speed starting to catch bad weather.

*Quote Mike:

Now we are reaching in horrendous seas left over from a gale last night.

As you can see (here) it is fast sailing and very, very uncomfortable.

The boat is occasionally taking off on surfs and leaning out at crazy angles, moving unpredictably.

It's definitely not my favourite point of sail.

We are making good progress but I can't quite get the height I want to try and escape from the high that is moving behind us.
*





Mike Golding in the South Indian Ocean _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Sory guys, I was waiting for the English translation of yesterday highlights but the only thing they had translated was the title

Regarding those first images I guess that I don't have to translate "Merde", that resumes what Tanguy is saying. Is autopilot disconnected and he went to a 90º capsize. Look at his face. There is fear there. That should have not been nice. It was a simple thing to repair (just the "pin" that went out of its place).





Day 27 highlights - Thursday, December 6, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_

edit: they get it translated.


----------



## Robert Bednarczyk

BRJ 35 What do you think of my design?
The yacht will be built in Poland by the best Polish shipyards ...


----------



## PCP

*Comments on posted designs*



Robert Bednarczyk said:


> BRJ 35 What do you think of my design?
> The yacht will be built in Poland by the best Polish shipyards ...


I cannot say that I like your designs. I see some good ideas and some nice curved lines (sometimes) but all designs show a huge freeboard and that makes for bulky boats that don't sit nicely on the water and offer a big windage.

Regarding the one you posted I don't like the hull design that seems old to me:










Strona g

The one from the 33 seems more modern:










But the boat has a very big freeboard:



















I like more the overall shape of the cat, but again the freeboard is just hudge, particularly on the bow:



















You mean the yacht is going to be built or will be built if someone commands one to you?

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*European Yacht of the year - movie*

You have to see this movie, it is long and it shows some very nice boats. I thought that this year the competition would not be so tight, but I guess that I was just not remembering all great boats that come to the market this year.

This video is only about two of the four categories: Luxury cruisers and Family cruisers. Well, both are family cruisers but ones are for very rich families the others for families that live well

The nominees are:

*Luxury cruisers *- Halberg Rassy 412; Amel 55; Italia 13.98; Discovery 57; Southerly 47.

*Family cruisers* - Hanse 415; Bavaria Vision 46, Delphia 31; RM 1260; Sun Odyssey 469.

The *MOVIE* with all those yachts being tested by Journalists from all the main European main sail magazines ( a lot of them):

Europas Yachten des Jahres - Teil 1 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

What is the boat that is going to be chosen? Well those guys have a big advantage, they will actually see the boats and sail them so I can only talk about design, and that is only a small part. They can not only access quality but actually see if it works

But I would say that even if the Halberg Rassy says pretty well (as I am sure he does), it is a pretty banal bot, lusury yes, but nothing new about it.






The Italia 13.98 brings something new, a classic looking boat with top performance sailing so it may well create a surprise here but I really don't know how the different members of the jury are going to value that.






I never like the Discovery line and my impression is that they are not great sailing boats. Maybe that's because I saw a stability curve of the first one on the line and was not impressed but that can have changed and I don't know much about this boat. The interior looks great but the boat seems a bit bulky.

Discovery Yachts // The Discovery 57 - the design of a new classic

Southerlies are great offshore boats with a great stability and the possibility to go to the beach (swinging ballasted keel). The Southerly 47 seems a nice one with great interiors. I guess it will depend on how well it sails.

Southerly 47 - Gallery

Amel are great yachts even if with a particular interior that I don't look too much for a boat with all that gloss. Well the Amel 64 was last year also nominated and lost to the Oyster 625. Maybe this year is the Amel year. Again it will depend on how well the boat sails.





AMEL 55 _por CHANTIER-AMEL_

Let's let the comments about the nominees on the Family cruisers class to other post. Meanwhile if someone want to join on the comments please post.

.....


----------



## Jeff_H

Robert Bednarczyk said:


> BRJ 35 What do you think of my design?
> The yacht will be built in Poland by the best Polish shipyards ...


BRJ 35 What do you think of my design?
Do you really want to know?

That is an interesting sculpture but frankly, strikes me as a pretty mediocre piece of yacht design. Hull forms and deck plans have functional purposes related to the environment that the live in and the use that they are intended for. These functional purposes should control the shape of the boat, that is unless you are only out to create an artistic statement, in effect a floating sculpture rather than a real boat.

For example, the deck plan would make for a wet boat that was very difficult to move around aboard. Water would be launched into the laps of people in the cockpit, deck hardware would be difficult to mount and ergonomically awkward to reach. The short inward facing stanchions are ornamental tripping hazzards. There is no place to sit at the wheel, no place to brace while steering, and hardware in the way of putting your body wherre you can see up the slot. Getting below or to the boarding platform is a contortionist act. There is little opportunity for ventilation. The high freeboard would be detrimental to the boat's sailing ability, ease of handling and motion comfort. The rotating mast would add complexity, makes the rig more vulnerable to damage, and offers zero advantage on a boat with the limited speed range/high aerodynamic drag that is likely given the rest of the design. You do not appear to understand the rigging geometry problem of a rotating mast (i.e. you cannot have lower shrouds attached to both the hull and mast on a rotating spar.)

I would suggest that you think a little bit more about why mono-hull boats look the way they do and then adjust your design approach accordingly. The multihull design displays similar issues but might have a better chance of actually working as a boat.

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## PCP

*European boat of the year: Family cruiser*

European boat of the year: Family cruiser

Family cruisers - Hanse 415; Bavaria Vision 46, Delphia 31; RM 1260; Sun Odyssey 469.

This is probably the more disputed category and the one that represent more boats and sales.

Hanse 415 - I did not saw the boat but I it seems that there is an improvement on interior design and eventually quality. The boat represents a very good compromise to the typical buyer of this type of boats, that represent after all the main market: A cruiser with a well designed interior, very functional, a big stability and a very well studied rigging that makes sailing very easy, even to a solo sailor. It is a strong candidate











The Bavaria Vision 46 is probably the strongest candidate. It not only sails well as it is a very innovative boat, a very good cruising boat that also presents a Bavaria visible improvement in design and making faith on the testers, also an improvement in the global quality and finish.






The RM 1260 is an improvement of the RM 1200 and as the 1200 was already a great boat, the 1260 is even better. But it is only an improvement not a breakthrough and is a more specialized boat, not pointed to the main crown but to the cruiser that voyages. Maybe because the boat was there but was not well known on the other markets out of France it stands some chances but I don't thing it stands so much chances has the Bavaria.

Guys understand that I am not looking at this on a personal perspective, If I was, I mean if I was to choose for me any of these boats I would choose this boat easily without any doubt. I have test sailed the previous model just because I was interested in the boat and it was the preferred by my wife, so I know that she would also pick this one






the Sun odyssey 469 I am sure it is a great boat but it just looks a bigger 409. Sure it is a great boat but nothing new or exiting about it.











The Delphia 31 is an outsider. It is a very interesting boat that appears to offer a lot for the money, has quality hardware on the deck and seems to have a nicely designed interior. I don't know the boat but I guess that it would have to sail very well and have a quality interior to stand any chance. I don't believe it but than I never been in the boat and much less have sailed it, so who knows?


----------



## PCP

*Brj 35*



Jeff_H said:


> BRJ 35 What do you think of my design?
> Do you really want to know?
> 
> That is an interesting sculpture but frankly, strikes me as a pretty mediocre piece of yacht design. Hull forms and deck plans have functional purposes related to the environment that the live in and the use that they are intended for. These functional purposes should control the shape of the boat that is unless you are only out to create an artistic statement, in effect a floating sculpture rather than a real boat.
> 
> ...
> I would suggest that you think a little bit more about why mono-hull boats look the way they do and then adjust your design approach accordingly. The multihull design displays similar issues but might have a better chance of actually working as a boat.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


And I would add, sail a bit more because I think that only a NA that has not a lot of sailing experience would design such a kind of boats. Sailing, preferably a lot and in different boats, is an indispensable requisite to be able to understand that form/function relation Jeff is talking about.

Jeff, be very much welcomed at this thread. I would like you to post and comment more. Please fell free, even if you don't agree with me about something, to express your opinion. I am not the kind of guy that does not like that and I try to have here an open view regarding the different type of boats, one not much marked with my own preferences.

There are some knowledgeable contributors around this thread, one more would be very welcomed.

I extend the invitation to all that follow this thread and don't post. This is not a blog, even if sometimes looks like one. Please fell free to express your opinion. I would like that

Best regards to all

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And here they are, at slow motion near that gate. Stamm is leading and making 2.6K while François is making 2.6k and jean-Pierre 4.1k and they will have a hell of 24 hours fighting to get a bit more speed on variable and weak winds. They have to cross the gate and then will dive South looking for wind but after passing the gate things are not going to be much better for many hours.

While they are in hell, Armel got out of it and is making 13.4k. Very soon will be doing a lot more. I think he was the one that played better but we will only know for sure in 24 hours. If so it will be a notable navigation feet. He was the only one to chose that option while the other four had chosen the other one.

Talking about four, Alex had played very well and its timing to the gate is better than the one from the others that had choose that option. That had been translated in a massive recovering one that is going to continue on the next yours. I think he is going to end up not very far from Jean-Pierre.

To give an idea, since the moment he dived South some days back he won 80Nm to the leader. I have said I did not understood what he was doing diving so much to the South. Now I understand and I have to say: Chapeau Alex

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

Yes, *Alex is the man of the day, look at him charging at 25K*





Alex Thomson at 25 knots / à 25 noeuds _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Day 28 highlights - Friday, December 7, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_

A small note to the three guys on the second group, Jean, Dominique and Mike, they are at about 570Nm from the leader but in two days they will have recovered a lot: They will have not that high center over the gate. For them it would be always at full blast. We will see how much they will recover but should be on the order of hundreds of miles.

....


----------



## PCP

*ARC - Vaquita, a class 40 wins!!!*

Great Victory for the 40 class boat, beating the Swan 80 by about *20 *hours (estimated).






At the tail end of a journey of more than 3,300 nautical males, Class 40 Vaquita has taken line honours in the Atlantic Rally for Cruisers (ARC) 2012, having sailed from Gran Canaria in just over twelve days; a truly magnificent performance for a 40 footer. Vaquita looked superb as she blasted across the finish line at 14 knots with the crew pushing the boat as hard as ever in front of the local and international media in Rodney Bay, Saint Lucia, today (07 December). The Austrian crew of six crossed the line at 10:22 local (14:22UTC) on 7 December 2012, giving them an elapsed time of 12 days, 1:37hours.

....

Vaquita, skippered by Austrian Andreas Hanakamp, former Team Russia Volvo Ocean Race skipper and two time Olympic star, sailed an extreme northerly route from Gran Canaria, clocking speeds of up to 25 knots during the crossing. This is Andreas' third consecutive year racing in the ARC, each time favouring the northerly passage, and each time paying off. 
....

Vaquita has not only crossed the finish line first, but has done so in style, with the next arrival, Swan 80' Berenice approximately 20 hours behind. This does not mean that Vaquita is guaranteed to win overall on corrected time, as she holds the highest handicap in the RORC IRC Racing Division.

Sail-World.com : Atlantic Rally for Cruisers - Vaquita claims line honours


----------



## PCP

*Vendee globe*

Yes, I was tight and Armel is the big winner. Chapeau to him that had the courage to take alone the less obvious way to the gate (in what regards wind) and is now at speed (16.3K) with an open road ahead (and an even faster one) while the other three of the leader pack will have to wait more 6 hours to gain a comparable speed. Some of then are doing only 4/5k speed. Armel is already leading and will increase is advance big time on the next hours.

Chapeau also to Mike that has impressed me even more than Armel on this game and is now a member of the leading group.

As I have said the 3 ones on the second group were winning big time to everybody.On the last 24 hours they reduced their disadvantage to the leader in about 240Nm and even if they are not winning now over Armel they will continue to win big time over the leader pack on the next 10 hours or so.

It was mostly luck but even so, chapeau to Mike, Dominique and Jean. Luck is part of the story, but great sailing too, and those three are together on that particular race for a long time

Particularly this two (jean and Dominique) seam to have decided to go ensemble. That is the second time in two days that they are very close:





Jean et Dominique : toujours ensemble _por VendeeGlobeTV_

The highlights of the 4th week of racing:





Week 4 Highlights of the 2012-2013 Vendée Globe _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*ARC- Racing divison / Fy 61*

On the ARC race the highlight goes to that POGO 50, with the designer and builder both making part of the five members crew, that is in direct fight with the JP52 to the 4th place in real time (the second is a Swan 80 and the third will be a Fy61). The JP52 is not only an incredibly expensive boat as it has also a canting keel and that, if we take into consideration the swing keel of Pogo, should give it a big advantage, since both boats are very light and have very adequate type of hulls for a transat.

Amazingly the Pogo has recovered distance over the JP52 and they are now side by side going for the Finnish line.

Another incredible fight is between a small Grand Soleil 43, a production boat and an expensive, even if some years older, racing Farr 60ft design, the Carroll Marine 60. The Grand Soleil come charging from behind and managed to catch the 60ft. Will he manage to overtake the bigger boat? They are fighting probably for the 8th place in real time and I suspect that the GS43 is the only one that has a chance to take the first place in compensated time from Vaquita, the 40class racer that arrived 1th in real time.

But today I will focus in another boat with a very good performance and a boat that is not known by many, a great cruising boat a Felci design, the Fy 61 that is arriving third in real time.

Let's have a look:













































































































I have said many times that most of the boats I post here, even if I consider them great designs and very suitable to cover some market segments, are not boats that suit my sailing program or life style, or particular taste. This one would, I mean if I was really a rich guy

Ok, I like the interior division and the way the keel box is kept out of the way but I don't like the interior design. That would not constitute any problem for me since I would have liked to design my own interior and I am quite sure they would have not any problem with that since this is a semi-custom boat. I am living now on my 3th house designed by me and one of the things it pisses me is not having enough money to have a boat with my own interior design, so that would not have been a problem at all, but a real opportunity.

Regarding what I like on this Felci design, well, taking out the interior, all: It is obviously very fast even on a race that will not reveal all its potential (it is not like the Pogo 50 a boat designed specially with downwind sailing in mind), it is relatively narrow, I am sure it will have a very easy motion, its a a very powerful boat with a huge RM and certainly a big AVS. A very seaworthy boat that would show all its potentialities upwind with heavy weather.

That very good stability is obtained not with a huge ballast (that would be detrimental to performance) but by a very reasonable B/D ratio for a keel with all the ballast on a torpedo 33%. I mean this would be good for a boat with a 2.30m draft, it is HUGE for a boat with 4.00m draft like this one.

For a cruising boat a 4.00m draft does not makes sense so this one can lift the keel till having a very reasonable 2.00m draft and even with that draft it can sail safely, if needed, with reduced sail. When he goes offshore he just turns on the turbo and let that ballast go 2.00m more deep.

Of course, all this makes this boat a very expensive boat, but for the ones that can afford it, what a boat

....


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Armel continues to win miles but Alex is getting me confused....again I hate when he does that and specially when is right in what is doing.

This time I understand what he is doing but it looks a risky move to me. He is going to do the opposite he had done last time.

He is trying to go on the shorter course and contrary to the others is not going to dive South to get more wind but for that he has to cross a zone with weak wind, after that as far as the weather information goes (36h) that's all good. I guess that all depends on the next 6 hours and the ones after the 36 that are given on the prevision. I hope he makes it. I like guys that don't follow the heard and Alex had done that two times in a row.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

The highlights of the day:





Day 29 highlights - Saturday, December 8, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*This is crazy: Boats*






Bathtub II from Keith Loutit on Vimeo.






Bathtub IV from Keith Loutit on Vimeo.






Bathtub III from Keith Loutit on Vimeo.






Bathtub V from Keith Loutit on Vimeo.






Creekside Story from Irol Trasmonte on Vimeo.






The North Wind Blew South from Keith Loutit on Vimeo.






The City of Samba from Jarbas Agnelli on Vimeo.






Small Worlds - Preview. from Keith Loutit on Vimeo.






Miniature Vancouver from Tony Leech on Vimeo.






Miniature Vancouver II from Tony Leech on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And yes, Alex got it right again and overtook Stamm





Alex Thomson's race highlights - Week 4 _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Brilliant race for him and Armel that continues to win on everybody. Fact is that there are now 5 on the top group. Stamm the last on that group is at only 135Nm from the Leader. Incredible race with huge strategic play

Drag race again!!!

*Alex Thomson (GBR, HUGO BOSS, taped):
It was a bit of a slow night, I was expecting everything else, but now the wind has gone a bit more than forecast and it is quite fast, it is round to the right direction so that is good news. I now have a little more wind than expected. I think now it is a drag race from here, with the wind at about 230-240 degrees and blowing maybe 24-25kts for the next couple of days and we will all pretty much be reaching east to the next ice gate, it is just a straight line for us. The guys who are in the south will have the wind a bit more left and we have it a bit more forward.*

*Armel Le Cléac'h (FRA, Banque Populaire):
The choice I made paid off, but the gap with François isn't that big, it's still very close. I'm focused on the Amsterdam gate now, that's the next step. The wind was pretty strong this morning, and it's still quite favourable. The sea is rough and there's an albatross following the boat.*

and that's why Stamm is losing time: problems on the main sail and the need to repair.





Bricolage sur Cheminées Poujoulat _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*ARC: Smaller boats / Southerly 38*

There is something that I have not seen commented regarding the ARC: Crisis or not, the boats are getting bigger and bigger and that's a thing that you can see overall Europe and that is reflected on the Market.

Certainly you have noticed that I have been posting a lot about boats over 45ft. That is simply because there are a lot of bigger boats coming to the market and not so many smaller boats.

Regarding this ARC edition anything smaller than 45ft is a small boat and boats with 40ft or less, that once were the majority, are today a small minority.

Curiously if we look to the boats position on the map we will see that the faster boats are the bigger boats, 50ft or more, but regarding the mid/last boats there are not a direct relation between size and position. I guess that means that many of the smaller boats sailors are just better sailors or that on the big boats there are a percentage that has a big boat without to know how properly take advantage of it.

It has been mentioned in others threads and I think it is a reality that nowadays, for many, the first boat is a boat bigger then 40ft and that probably has to do with so many big boats going so slowly notwithstanding a much bigger tankage and a much bigger motoring autonomy (cruisers can and use the engine when there is not wind on this Transat).

So, let's have a look at some of the boats smaller than 39ft and have a look at their performance:

The first two smaller boats are very different, one is a First 36.7, a well known performance cruiser with some years and the second one is a Southerly 38. This one comes as a surprise since it is not a performance cruiser but a small solid ballasted centerboarder offshore cruiser and a relatively heavy one.

To give an idea of the performance of these boats we have to just look at the boats that are nearby, behind or slightly ahead: Swan 45; Amel Maramu, Hanse 495; Open 60; GS 52, Jeanneau 57.

Those two are really making a great crossing and are certainly very well sailed. Substantially behind we will find four other "small" boats, not very far away between them, by this order:

Dufour 385, Dehler 36, Moody S38 and Hanse 325. These boats are surroumded by: Amel 54, Jeanneau 52.2, Lagoon 440, Hanse 461, Jeanneau 53, Oyster 53, Franccini 55, Oyster 54, Oceanis 45, Oyster 45, Amel 54, Northweind 60, Tayana 55, Malo 46, Jeanneau 54.

The Dufour 385 is a mass production cruiser and one not especially suited for bluewater cruising, the Dehler 36 is a good performance cruiser, the Moody 38 is an older boat, a good offshore cruiser and also an heavier boat, the Hanse 325 is a new Hanse, an inexpensive boat and one that most on this forum would say that is just a coastal boat without any offshore capability.

Well this year the ARC was one of the editions with stronger winds and worst seas, and there it is the little light cruiser, not properly sailing defensively, surrounded by 50 and 60ft boats, doing a fast Transat without apparently any problem.

From those, let's have a look at the two that are still in production, The Southerly 38 and the Hanse 325.

Let's start with the Southerly:

The Southerly weights 9,921 kg with a fixed ballast (on the bottom of the boat) of 2100kg and a swing keel with 1702kg. It is also a beamy boat (3.99) with a powerful and modern hull (two rudders) that generates enough RM and stability to carry a large spinnaker (81sqm) and a substantial sail area upwind, for a 38ft cruiser (73sqm).

It is amazing how a boat with these characteristics can be on this position. It is only possible because this had been a particularly windy Transat but off course, also because the boat is very well sailed and it is a great design (Sthephen Jones). Long gone the days were Southerlies were typical English boats, Ugly, Slow and well built.

This one is not only strong but also beautiful and relatively fast. I would say that this is the only major brand that I know of that manages to have an in house designed interior that besides being of quality is also well designed.

This is a boat that I like very much but inevitably an expensive boat. If you have the money and need a small boat with a reduced draft and offshore capability, this one is a very good option. It will make any owner proud.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Alex took another one This time it was Jean-Pierre. What a recovery!!!! You have to love that guy. He is the fastest on the fleet (3th now) and has also diminished the distance to the leader, Armel. On the last hour he has made an average speed over 22K. Drage race I am telling you!!!!

That's amazing that with so many French on the race, on the leading group of five, almost half are not French. That should put the French a bit worried

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





Day 30 highlights - Sunday, December 9, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## Robert Bednarczyk

*Re: Comments on posted designs*

Yes, farm out production of these boats on request. It is also possible that the customer will arrange for the construction of the boat yard. I have the best specialists available ... "REGA YACHT" Babicz & Krolikowski of Polish.
Carrying out a boat for the ocean it's a pleasure;-)
Thank you for your interest.

Robert


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And Alex have lost this time some miles and two places. My first idea was that he had troubles and then I checked the millage for the last 24: 19.9K and the millage om the last hour: 19.4K....odd, everything seems ok.... then I checked jean-Pierre average on the last 24h: 21.5K and Stamm over 24h:20.7K.

*DRAG RACE* I tell you!!!!!

and they were not the faster, François, that has been the faster and is all over Armel, has done on the last 24h and average of 22.3K speed and a new 24 hour world record for solo sailing: *532Nm* in 24h that is over 22K for a full day and night, sleeping and all

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

For the first time I heard Armel complaining that this crazy rhythm is too high and that they have still a long way to go. I guess that the strategy of this 5 is to bet on a drag race till there is only one surviving boat (or the others slow down) because I don't believe the boats (or they) can take this rhythm for much longer.

One of them was complaining that he could not stand up on the boat, he had to move on hands and feet, other was complaining he just managed to eat peanuts and energy bars and I wonder what is to try to have some rest on those conditions, having to have always a look at the boat and sails, not to mention the wild ride.

Look at Armel going and consider the François is going faster





Belle allure sur Banque Populaire _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Armel is starting to show concern about this mad drag race:

*Armel Le Cléac'h (FRA, Banque Populaire):

I think I'm doing great in terms of performance. I can see MACIF on my AIS. My average speed is about 20 knots but he's obviously been faster. Congratulations on his 24-hour record! 23 knots of average speed is really something, maybe he's taken a bit more risks. Same for the skippers right behind, but so far they're doing ok. I'm focusing on my own race, not the others', and there's still a long way to go anyway.

Christopher is right, life on board in such a context is not really easy. The deck is drenched, there's humidity everywhere, even inside, because you're very wet when you get in. It's pretty cold, too. And this is all quite stressful, even though the sea isn't too rough. It's difficult to sleep, you always want to keep an eye on things.*

....


----------



## DiasDePlaya

The results of the ARC does not say much about the performace of the boats, most crews are cruisers, not racers, family crews that will enjoy the journey, not to compete, with heavily loaded boats.
Sailing between Thailand and Europe with a crew of Chilean racers we never use the autopilot and there was always someone who was tuning the sails, so we kept close to the maximum speed that the boat could give. We went two or three days after a flotilla of cruisers with which we share in Thailand, Sri Lanka and Maldives and arrived a day ahead of them. We kept the spinnaker all the time, even did spinnaker changes as the wind, while the cruisers reduced sails at night.


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> The results of the ARC does not say much about the performace of the boats, most crews are cruisers, not racers, family crews that will enjoy the journey, not to compete, with heavily loaded boats.
> Sailing between Thailand and Europe with a crew of Chilean racers we never use the autopilot and there was always someone who was tuning the sails, so we kept close to the maximum speed that the boat could give. We went two or three days after a flotilla of cruisers with which we share in Thailand, Sri Lanka and Maldives and arrived a day ahead of them. We kept the spinnaker all the time, even did spinnaker changes as the wind, while the cruisers reduced sails at night.


Yes I agree with you partially. First there are two ARC, one that is a real race (racing division ) the other that is just cruising with some racing in mind (at least for some) because there is also a classification. Most cruisers don't like to be overtaken more even if there are a classification and all boats from the cruising division are loaded.

They are all cruisers and they are going with the boat to the Caribbean and will cruise there for a considerable time. Regarding loading it is to be expected that a smaller boat would be much more loaded in a long voyage (regarding max load) than a bigger boat, for instance, a 38ft regarding a 55fter.

Here, like in any sailing situation, even racing, the quality of a crew is a very important factor but even with the best crew a slow boat will not go fast.

The point I was making is that a small cruising boat well sailed (and not raced, otherwise they would be on the racing division and I don't know if you noticed that I had separated the posts about each) can go as faster as many not so well sailed much bigger boats, but not all, it has to be a good small sailing boat. It happens that most modern production boats are good and fast boats sailing with trade winds.

Even so the performance of that Southerly 38 is only possible because it is a very well designed sailboat. It is an heavy boat with a swing keel, both things detrimental for performance. Only a very well designed hull permits the boat to be where it is, regarding all other boats, and a good crew too.

Do you looked where the boat is? It is called Little Pea. First on the side turn out the boats from the racing division that had sailed out two days earlier.

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

The performance Is so unbelievable that I had to check if the boat had sailed out at the same time as all the other cruisers...and this is not even the type of boat a cruiser that likes to race will buy.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Fine:£9,381 + £4,125*

Ponds not Euros. That is a fine bigger than the value of some boats
I had talked already that Marc Guillemot was guilty of disrespecting the colregs ( Dover Strait Traffic Separation Scheme (TSS) here is the fine and the full story:

*Today, the Maritime and Coastguard Agency issued the following statement following the prosecution of French sailor Marc Guillemot:

'Marc Guillemot, skipper of the French racing yacht Safran, has today appeared at Southampton Magistrates Court and fined £9,381 and awarded costs against him of £4,125 for travelling the wrong way in busy traffic lanes off the Kent coast.

'On 6 June 2012 the Safran left Lizard Point in Cornwall, in an attempt to beat its own previous record set in 2011 for the fastest sail around the United Kingdom and Ireland.

'At 11.43pm on 6 June, the Safran was seen by Dover Coastguard travelling in a North Easterly direction in the South West lane of the Dover Strait Traffic Separation Scheme (TSS). On the 7 June at 4am, the yacht failed to proceed in the appropriate traffic lane in the Sunk traffic separation scheme.

'During its passage, several merchant ships altered course to avoid a collision with the yacht. Dover Coastguard made a number of attempts to contact the yacht with no response. Eventually the French Coastguard got in touch and pointed out that the vessel was travelling the wrong way in the TSS. Guillemot replied saying he was trying to break the record for sailing around the UK and Ireland and would not alter course.

'In total, the Safran travelled 28 nautical miles in the wrong direction in both separation schemes. This was in breach of Rule 10(b)(i) of the Convention on the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972.

'In passing sentence the Chairman of the Magistrates, Mr. John Johnson said:

"We have heard this afternoon that Mr. Guillemot is an experienced and confident yachtsman. However, Mr. Guillemot did travel the wrong way in the shipping lanes. For the offence on the 6th June, we fine £13,000 reduced by your early guilty plea to £8,700. For the offence on the 7th June, a £1,000 fine reduced to £666."

'Kaimes Beasley, Channel Navigation Information Service Manager at Dover Coastguard, stated:

'"The Strait of Dover Traffic Separation Scheme is one of the busiest in the world. Mr Guillemot was reckless in his navigation during the hours of darkness not only in the Dover Strait TSS, but also in the Sunk Traffic Separation Scheme. He put his crew and other vessels at significant risk in order to try to beat his previous record"'*

Well, one for the safety on the sea. I guess thatknow sailors, racing or not are going to pay more attention to the traffic rules.


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 325/ Jeanneau 33i*

Here it is the promised report on the Hanse 325 the boat that is making an amazing ARC. We have already talked about the boat that was the first Hanse that had a better designed interior, less ikea even if I I don't really like the plastic decor on the nav station.

The boat is relatively heavy with 5200kg an high efficient bulbed keel with a draft of 1.83m and a ballast ratio of 28%. It has 3.30m of beam and a modern hull designed by Judel/Vrolijk and a sail area upwind of 51.35 m.

It is a good boat but probably not the one that I like more on this class.

I would prefer the Marc Lombard designed Jeanneau 33i, a bit bigger (9.74 to 9.55m) weighting a bit less (4645kg) with a slightly bigger draft (1.9m) , a similar bulbed keel and most of all a much bigger B/D ratio (32%).

The beam is similar (3.34m) and that with the superior draft and the much bigger B/D will make the jeanneau a more powerful boat with a better stability. The sail area is similar (51.5sqm) so the Jeanneau will be a faster boat with a better stability.

Both the Jeanneau and the Hanse are capable boats, boats that pass therequirements for certification on EC offshore category even if not by a big margin. These boats with an experienced sailor and in the right season can safely make ocean passages even if they were not designed with that in mind.

However they are very good and safe coastal cruisers and can sail with relatively rough conditions.

Let me point out that this is a very different boat than the slightly smaller (but very different) jeanneau 30i that was tested against those older boats by a German magazine (video some posts back). I don't think those oldies would have done better than the 33i, even in adverse conditions, like the ones on that test. The jeanneau 30i has a smaller draft and only 24% of B/D. I don't understand that big differences since it is also a Marc Lombard design. The 30i is just a Coastal cruiser, contrary to the 33i that has an offshore capacity.

Movies from both boats:




















20/04/2009 - Essai du Sun Odyssey 33i... _por Voilesnews_


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Absolutely incredible, Armel and François are just racing like if they were finishing the race at sprint not as if they were at the middle of it. I don't understand how they can keep with this rhythm. That is absolutely insane I don't remember anything like this. They are going so fast that they have already passed the next gate. I guess that on the last two days they have made more than 1000Nm

And so Armel comes back. Anything you can do François I can do too. Well, almost. Le Cléac'h the Banque Populaire skipper is back on top of the standings this evening after making a 530 miles 24 hours run up to 1800hrs UTC this evening. And since the afternoon rankings Le Cleac'h has done ten miles more than François Gabart to retake the lead by a matter of 8.5 miles.

A match race is developing then towards the Amsterdam gate and this evening, with the speedos still red hot, it is Armel who has bounced back, also retaining the preferred berth to windward in the strong NW'ly.

They cannot post fast enough to cover the race. Since the afternoon François managed to go even faster and overtook Armel again

Crazy stuff!!!!! : *"There is about 35 to 40K wind, I am doing between 22 and 28K. Not much sail out. I try to cool it down but the boat goes faster and faster"* says François. Take a look and see how the boat shakes and vibrates. How the hell can day sleep or rest on that thing? And the guy seems fresh as if he was just starting a new day after a good night's rest. These guys are just incredible!!!!

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





Day 31 highlights - Monday, December 10, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*For the Dreamers of silence, beauty and ice*






Northwest Passage by Megayacht from EYOS Expeditions on Vimeo.






Borea Adventures from Geimstöðin on Vimeo.






Iceland: A Skier's Journey EP3 [S3] from Jordan Manley Photography on Vimeo.






Dive the North in Greenland from media.gl on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And those two continue their mad sprint they are practically side by side, now is Armel that is leading with only 1.2Nm advantage. It seems nobody else can sustain that mad rhythm and slowly these two are isolating themselves at the head of the race.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

I had a good laugh with this statement made by François:

*"My current speed is 19-22 knots, it's moving a lot on board, there are violent shocks sometimes, but you get used to them. Same for the speed, you get used to what it feels like on board at high speed and after that, you stop noticing, you can really get used to everything&#8230;"*

Si I guess he is replyng to ny question about how can they live like that

*François Gabart (FRA, MACIF):
These are amazing moments, the boat is gliding so fast and effortlessly, I'm so happy with these past two days, the conditions are just great.

Nothing is easy, though, the Vendée Globe is one of the hardest events in the world, there are technical problems and dangerous situations. But in the middle of those, you have magical moments, like what I'm experiencing right now. There have been difficult times, too, in the Crozet gate area, you're alone on the boat to change and set sails, you're exhausted, the conditions are bad and they keep changing and still, you just don't progress that much so it's very frustrating.*

*Armel Le Cléac'h (FRA, Banque Populaire):
François and I have seen seeing each other on our AIS for 24 hours now. It's a nice way to check my speed is good enough!

Winds will get stronger and stronger throughout the day, I'll need to manoeuvre and get ready for the depression and tomorrow's conditions in order to be as efficient as possible. There's an intense fight for the lead of the race, even though we may sound quiet and relaxed on the phone. But our daily life isn't that easy, you know.

Our routes are quite similar, with François, I've actually seen François this morning as his boat wasn't far from mine. But you can't stay outside too long because of the water splashing all over the place.

So far we've been quite fast compared to four years ago, but then the icebergs and the ice gates have changed a lot of things so it's difficult to say what the winner's final time will be.*

Even Frank Cammas (recently elected French yachtsman of the year) is really impressed with those two guys and he is not one easily impressed:

Franck Cammas (FRA, skipper):

*I'm in awe of what the Vendée Globe skippers have been achieving lately, their speed is amazing, it's an incredible performance for solo sailors. In 15 years, the monohulls have caught up with the multihulls from the 1990's in terms of performance. I just can't believe François Gabart actually said he had never slept as well as he did yesterday! He's unique. *.

.....
On a side line, Sam Davis had made under jury rig her way to Sables d' Olonne...She had 15 000 people waiting for her and 60 boats to escort her on the water....What can I say...I bet some were sailors bit it seems most were just common people, lots of kids and women too, all wanting to say : We love you Sam, better luck on the next time


----------



## Jeff_H

*Re: Brj 35*



PCP said:


> Jeff, you are very much welcomed at this thread. I would like you to post and comment more. Please feel free, even if you don't agree with me about something, to express your opinion. I am not the kind of guy that does not like that and I try to have here an open view regarding the different type of boats, one not much marked with my own preferences.
> 
> Best regards to all
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,

Thank you for the invitation. I have come to really appreciate your contribution to SailNet and from conversations with the other mods it is clear that I am not the only one who reads this thread when I have the time, enjoys seeing what is happening beyond my provincial world, and considers this to be one of the more valuable member generated, ongoing discussions on this site.

I too wish that I had more time to contribute to this thread, but as a small business owner in this current economy, I find myself focused on the office more than I might wish, with wildly less time to participate in the internet.

What time that I have for the internet, tends to get used on moderating Sailnet, or at least trying to hold up my end as much as posible since it is my fellow modertors who frankly do most of the heavy moderation lifting around here.

I do read your comments when I can. I think that you do a good job of explaning your position on things. I do not always agree, but I also think that most times, whatever disagreement that we may have, perhaps derives from our invidual philosophic viewpoints about what we want a boat to do and where we place our priorities rather than a fundimental disagreement on matters of fact.

So for both of our sakes, I can only hope that I have more time to participate.

Thanks again,
Jeff


----------



## PCP

*Stupid things and luck...this guy had a lot*


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

My respect by Alex Thompson is increased again and it was already a big one. His boat had hit badly some debris at over 20K and one rudder was badly damaged. He had done a very complicated repair in a record time and without losing much time: Chapeau!!!!!!

*"After the toughest 24 hours of his Vendée Globe so far, required to make a vital repair to his rudder mechanism on Hugo Boss after hitting a floating object during Sunday night, Alex Thomson (GBR) has been losing no time in getting right back into the race, closing fast again on Bernard Stamm this afternoon to challenge the Swiss skipper for fourth place.

The British skipper's team confirmed today that the repair to the rudder tie bar had taken around fifteen hours in total. Although he had already made the same type of composite repair in the Atlantic to rectify a similar problem which had afflicted the opposite rudder, this time the work was more complicated and had to be completed in much more testing weather and sea conditions. The accident has damaged one of his hydrogenerators beyond repair....

Now relying on a limited supply of diesel and the one remaining hydrogenerator, Thomson will be in very strict energy saving mode - running what his team call 'dark mode' - which means very reduced communication with the outside world."*

Stamm had also to slow down due to a smaller but more painful problem

*"Bernard Stamm it has been self-dentistry which has been the new challenge for the Brittany based Swiss racer.

Stamm broke one of his molars whilst eating and, under careful instruction, had to file and fill the tooth himself with a temporary dressing, a painful and painstaking operation."
*

Doing that with the boat at speed (I bet he did not stop) should have been complicated....and painful

On the head of the race, a Drag race over the same course, François is finally going away from Armel. I Don't know if François can be faster that Armel or is just Armel that considered that going at that Rhythm was just madness and that they would end up with broken boats? Probably Armel has some small problem on the boat. On the last hour the difference in speed was considerable (2.2K) taking into consideration that they are on the same course and not far away. It seems to me not a normal difference if everything was alright with Armel and his boat.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





Day 32 highlights - Tuesday, December 11, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*New boats: Premier 45*

Take a look at this babie:
































































This boat looks so beautiful that one wonders if this is not going to be one of those very nice designs that never see the light of the day. The Project was announced some years ago and I thought that it was going to be the case.

I was wrong. They say the boat is going to be presented in Dusseldorf. Uau!!!!, I am not going to miss this one

The boat is not only beautiful as also its specifications are incredibly good in what concerns a seaworthy and incredibly powerful boat, one that uses a lifting torpedo keel that allows those performance while permitting a reasonable draft for cruising.

This is a Botin Carkeek & Partners 45ft design, the boat is made with carbon using infusion with mast and boom in carbon. It can have a variable draft (1.75 to 2.75 meters). Weight is only 8.0 tons, and almost half of it is on the ballast. It is a moderately beamed boat, much on the line of Italian performance boats.

SPECIFICATIONS 
LOA 13.72 m
LWL 12.94 m
Bmax 4.15 m
Displacement - Lightship 8000 kgs
Draft (up/dwn) 1.75/2.75 m
Upwind Sail Area 122.1 m2
Downwind Sail Area 259.8 m2

This is not one of those adventure projects that are made by some very small and amateurish companies that make a prototype and die. This boat is being built by Premier Composite Technologies a big company specialized on top composite technologies in several sectors and with a lot of naval experience. They build for designers like Farr, Botin-Carkeek, Judel-Vrolijk, Jason Ker and Mark Mills. they have built the Landmark 43, the Ker 53, the JV40, the Farr 11's and the Farr400. Maybe the reason that allows them to offer this boat to a very interesting price, about 500 000 Euros, is possibly related with the use of a big industrialized set up in what regards composites.

They say about the boat:

*Premier Composite Technologies flagship model, the Premier 45, is a fast, high performance, short handed cruiser.

Designed by Botin-Carkeek, designers of the Team New Zealand TP52, the Premier 45 is built for speed with a carbon fibre and foam cored hull. Featuring a lifting keel and a modern, stylish - yet comfortable - interior, the Premier 45 is the ultimate cruising racer.

Generous upwind and downwind sail area provide the horsepower for class leading performance whilst low displacement and wetted surface area ensure the Premier 45 is easily driven whatever the conditions. The hull design has been developed to excel in downwind conditions and maintain stable handling in waves when further offshore. Carefully optimized foil designs mean the Premier 45 tacks swiftly and maintains excellent low speed manoeuvrability during the pre-start.

Premier Composite Technologies has succeeded in combining a true racing pedigree with all the practicalities required for a great short handed cruising yacht.
*

....


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

After all it seems Armel has not any problem. He have recovered and lost some distance over François maintaining about a 12Nm distance to François. Jean Pierre is also not losing miles maintaining the distance (80Nm). They are trying not to get caught by a high pressure center. Maybe François and Armel can make it.

I doubt Jean-Pierre can make it and if so he will lose many miles. Stamm that has fighting with a lot of problems will be screwed. He will not be able to escape to the low wind and Alex, having lost a lot of time repairing the rudder, is playing masterfully going North to surround the high pressure center and be sure he gets wind all the way.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

*Stamm, fourth at 191 miles behind the leader, is in light winds, heavy rain and has been dealing with a set of repairs which have sapped his energy and tested his fortitude, but he has still held a pace with the leaders. Contacted this evening by Vendée Globe Radio with Pierre Louis Castelli, Stamm revealed he has been making repairs for several days. He has been deprived of the use of his coffee grinder winch, he has had to make a substantial sail repair and is trying to fix a failed hydrognerator.

The boat is quite fast, even though she could be even faster. If I had less technical issues to deal with, I could focus on sailing. But I can't, so it's frustrating.....

And in the light of these accumulated setbacks, Stamm continues to do a good job of staying with the lead group.*





Day 33 highlights - Wednesday, December 12, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Hydroptere 2*

VPLP designs on the new Hydroptere, fixed wing and all.




























All of a sudden the Hydroptere that we all know looks old

They are pointing to the trans-Pacific record 2015 if they can put together a sponsor.

.....


----------



## PCP

*Trade winds*

Have a look:

*MOVIE*

NMM Mobile Learning: Trade and the Middle Passage on Vimeo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Dam! I start to understand this stuff. I was right about the last prevision: Jean-Pierre was not able to escape completely to the weak winds, and lost 100NM to the two leading boats in some hours. Stamm was effectively screwed and Alex had taken the right option and even so is losing a lot of time.

Stamm lost 300Nm in 24 hours and had ended up having to take the same option as Alex (sailing North of the High). Alex had took that option first and has gained 22Nm to Stamm (and overtook him) but lost 200Nm to the leaders.

I guess that Jean-Pierre will still lose some miles to the two in the front and then will be able to maintain that difference in about 200Nm.

It seems that the leading pack will be now a trio, with two of them in close battle for the first place.

Regarding the occasion where Gabart was winning over Armel with a speed difference that was incomprehensible to me, Michel Desjoyeaux, two times winner of this race the (" the teacher" has is called among the other racers) and François mentor had come to shed some light over it on an interview:

*And what is the difference between Armel and Francois? *

*To me there is no surprise what is happening. I know what they do and they way they sail and race. They are just playing what they love to do, how they love to do it.*

*Francois has a secret weapon? *

*I know why Francois is so fast. He has a sail ( blast reacher) which is an improvement of what I had four years ago. We are sure now that Armel does not have the same sail. It works on the angles that he had when he broke the record, so around 120 degrees with around 35-40knots of wind, with ideal conditions of swell and sea.*

*Three days ago we were at the Soiree du Champions with the French Federation and they called François live during the ceremony and he said "It is OK, the wind has dropped a little, 30-35kts and I have been sleeping a lot.

And the whole theatre was silent. They could not believe it. They thought he was joking, but I am sure it's right because in those conditions you have nothing else to do. And you have to because when it drops and you need bigger sails then you have much more work to do, you have to be on the deck and be ready to drive the boat and be ready to manoeuvre*.

Funny these guys that sleep a lot with the boat on 30/35K wind surfing at over 20K, sometines 30K.

This tells also what these boats are able to do. Another racer in what seemed to be very demanding circumstances, said something like this (while the water was passing over his head and the boat was doing over 20k) you have just to adjust the boat for the circumstances and the boat does the rest.

No wonder this kind of boats to be the major hull influence on modern designed cruisers.





Day 34 highlights - Thursday, December 13, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Fantastic cruising*


----------



## PCP

*Sailing*

When the winter close down on us, sailing for most, is just a memory. Movies like this one help us to dream with the next season and keep sailing close to our hearts.






What the eye can sea! from Brian Carlin | Cube Images on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*European Boat of the year 2013 - Special class boats*

Finally the much waited (at least by me) second part of that video about the 2013 European boat of the year regarding the three last classes, Performance cruisers, Multihull cruisers and Special category boats.

*MOVIE:*

Europas Yachten des Jahres

There are an incredibly high number of very good boats among the nominees and the choice will be very hard. Starting with the easiest category, especially now that the A27 had to retire from the competition (impossibility of having the boat available for testing on the location due to financial problems), the Special boat category:

Special boat category: J70, Bavaria B one and Seascape 27.

Three great boats, the J70, a top performance boat but considerable more expensive than the Bavaria. The difference in performance is not that big and with the difference in price you would buy the car to pull the boat. It will be hard to choice between the two. But I Think the winner would be the Seascape 27. It is not only a great sailing boat with incredible performances as it will also permits weekend cruising, swinging keel and all. An innovative concept by one of the most brilliant NA from the new generation (for many years a solo racer), Sam Manuard. Has he says on the movie, a sailboat should be funny to sail and hassle free. A lot of fun and boat for the money it's what I say.

Let's have a better look on these looking at some movies
















We leave for other posts the two remaining categories: Performance cruisers and Multihull cruisers.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Too badJean-Pierre, for very little lost the ride on the weather system. Was not caught by weak winds but seems not able to leave the 10k zone while Armand and François are well inside the over 25K winds. The result is that now the leader pack is reduced to two, François and Armel that slowly but inexorably is losing miles (30 till know) to François.

Jean-Pierre is already at 362Nm and cannot do nothing except lose more till he can get a weather pattern that favors him, and now is quite the opposite.

Alex did not make it and miss not for much his ride and got caught on the high, as well as Stamm. It seems to me that Stamm is playing better now than Alex but both are in a very difficult situation, much worse than Jean-Pierre and with a big high pressure center right ahead. They are already at over 550Nm from François and will be at much more tomorrow.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Cartographie

Someone have already baptized the two lone riders:

*"The records seem set to keep tumbling as Sundance and Butch chase each other around the world as if they were match-racing in an Olympics. The leader, Francois Gabart (Macif) is just 30 miles ahead of Armel Le Cléac'h (Banque Populaire), but with only around 50 miles to the longitude of Cape Leeuwin, on the southwest tip of Australia, it will surely be 29-year-old Gabart, who takes the record passage to the Cape, sometime before midnight.

The front two continue to extend away as Gabart cooly anticipated and those now detached in different weather systems feared. Gabart was making nearly 20 knots in the last four hours, Le Cléac'h just over 18 and those chasing them a far more sedate 10-13 knots.

Gabart's time to Cape Leeuwin will eclipse another record of Vincent Riou, the 2004-05 winner of the Vendée Globe, who was knocked out of the race after an unfortunate collision with a harbour buoy 500 miles from the coast of Brazil.

The 35-year-old Le Cléac'h broke Riou's 2004-05 record to the Cape of Good Hope by just over a day and after their incredible speeds across the Indian Ocean, Gabart will be more than two days inside Riou's record to Cape Leeuwin of 36 days, 12 hours and 48 minutes."*

Matthew Pryor





Day 35 highlights - Friday, December 14, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Sailing: nice and fast boats*


----------



## PCP

*European boat of the year: Performance cruisers:*

Let's then see the nominees that interest most viewers of this thread, the performance cruisers:

*MOVIE:*

Europas Yachten des Jahres

This year was a great crop, specially if we consider performance cruisers. So many and so good that they had to pass one to the Luxury cruisers were he is competing with other more conventional luxury boats.

This year's nominees are:

*Grand Soleil 39; Dufour 36 performance; Mc34 Patton, Sly 38 and Xp-50.*

Well on this category it will be impossible to say who has more chances.

The grand Soleil 39 would be a major favorite for me but the British tester raised some doubts about the steering to be much race like, so I guess that if it is chosen it will be against his opinion. But I have read great reports about the boat and everybody else seems to love it, so I am very curious about the global opinion on this one. This boat has a great cruising interior and it is an innovative boat that started an all new design trend on Grand Soleil boats and marks also the arrival of Claudio Maleto has the new GS NA.











This is an outsider. It is one of those new performance boats made by a small but enthusiastic French small shipyard and it is much a semi custom boat with racing has a good part of its sailing program but also able to cruise in a lot more spartan conditions than the Grand Soleil. It is a Marc Lombard design and I have heard that the boat is a rocket.

Marsaudon Composites - Lorient - MC34 PATTON

On the Yacht movie, on top of this post the boat the boat seems to sail exceptionally well. Here a movie with almost no wind and the boat gliding softly, on conditions most cruisers would be dead on the water:






On the movie also the A27, a boat that was nominated but that by financial problems could not be tested (they were not be able to deliver a boat on the location).

Then the sly 38, with great specifications and absolutely beautiful, inside and outside. If the boat sails as well as it looks, I would chose this one as one of the favorites. It is a great looking design by a quite unknown Studio Lestuzzi. Let's hope the sailing qualities to be in accordance with the specifications and the looks 










The Dufour 36 performance is a nice boat even if I find it a bit heavy. I don't think that it has much chances, or maybe the boat sails better than what I suspect and in that case it can be a contender. It has a nice interior but not really anything new or very exiting.











And finally the Xp 50. I confess I am partial about this one. I agree that it has nothing new regarding the other boats on the Xp series, like the XP44, but the boat seems absolutely perfect, I mean it is a very fast cruiser with an huge potential, it is easy to sail solo it is beautiful and has a great cruising interior. What would someone wish for more? Between this one and the Sly, well.... they have much more information and they will sail the boats. May the better win, and I bet they will have a big difficulty in choosing the best among all these great boats


----------



## PCP

*vendee Globe*

What I said on the last post is just happening and keep going with François and Armel going away. François continues to going slowly away from Armel.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

More records beaten:

*Like every young man in a hurry to meet his destiny, Francois Gabart (Macif) arrived early last night and in his urgency claimed an unexpected second record. When he crossed the longitude of Cape Leeuwin in Australia at 22:25 UTC (11:25 p.m. French Time) on Friday night, Gabart set a new record (which will await ratification) between the Cape of Good Hope and Cape Leeuwin of 11 days 6 hours and 40 minutes. That bettered the time of his mentor, Michel Desjoyeaux, by just nine minutes. Desjoyeaux completed the passage in 11 days 6 hours and 49 minutes on Foncia when he won the last edition of the Vendée Globe in 2008-09.

More expected was Gabart's new record between the start at Les Sables d'Olonne and Cape Leeuwin of 34 days 10 hours and 23 minutes. That bettered by 2 days 2 hours and 25 minutes the mark set by Vincent Riou on PRB of 36 day 12 hours and 48 minutes, when he won the 2004-05 race.

This has been race of minutes and small margins and 29-year-old Gabart and the 35-year-old Armel Le Cléac'h (Banque Populaire), continue to chase each other around the world as if they were match-racing in an Olympics, drawing away from the rest of the fleet. A little less than two hours after the passage of Macif, Le Cleac'h crossed the longitude of the second major Cape of the race. His time between Les Sables and Leeuwin was 34 days and 12 hours 13 minutes. Enjoying consistent 25 knot south-westerly breezes, the two men accumulate miles but Macif still seems to have a slightly better performance and 40 miles now separate the two men.*





Day 36 highlights - Saturday, December 15, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Week 5 Highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

This guys are all great sailors. Just look at this story With mike:

*Almost to the day four years, and within three hundred miles or so of the same spot that he lost his mast in the last Vendée Globe, Mike Golding has emerged this morning from a problematic incident which, but for the actions of the highly experienced skipper, could have been much worse.

"There was certainly a point where I thought, 'Here we go again, please, not another Christmas in Perth'," Golding said. "But I am reasonably sorted now, I am not going to go mad. ...

It was around 0400hrs this morning when Golding was just completing a sail change, hooking south into stronger breeze, when the furling line on the giant Code Zero failed just as a 35kt squall hit. Previously the wind had been around 18kts. With the boat overpowered and the headsail flogging wildly with no way of re-furling, the autopilot let go. Quick thinking Golding reached for the keel dump and effectively set Gamesa on her side to reduce the pressure on the rig before battling the Code Zero down in a nasty heap.

"I'm back on course now. The Code Zero is a bit of a mess with all the sheets inside it. Im in repair mode now and have to sit and stitch the cover back on the furler line...

"When all this was going on I had the flashback to four years ago. It is so dangerous now because you have 20kts and are lulled into a false sense of security and then suddenly there is a big 35kts gust."*


----------



## PCP

*New boats: Jaro 37, a new bluewater boat*

This is a boat that can go very fast:






without sails

That's advertised as a kind of a bluewater MacGregor:

*"If you are looking for a boat easy to manage in every condition, extremely confortable and customizable, able to drive you to the farest locations but that leave you convenience to moor it in the nearest port and finally a sailboat.

Thus born the true convertible boat, a boat with good sailing performance and able to navigate planning at more than 20 knots pushed by the engine power.

Boat has an innovative design and comfort is with no compromise:
open cockpit with foldable sofa, hydraulic pivoting keel with a minimum draft of 850 mm, dinette folding table, internet and mobile booster, watermaker, air conditioning system, integrated electronic instrument....

Classification RINA cat. B - 10 people
Loa 11,4 m
Beam max 3,65 m
Draft 2,35 / 0,85 m
Displacement (W.type) 4.950 Kg
Ballast 860 Kg
Mainsail 34,8 m2
Selftacking jib 29,5 m2
Gennaker 81,0 m2
Engine: Volvopenta D3D 200 Hp
Porpeller VP Aquamatic DPS
Fuel tank 270 L
Black & Grey water tank 40 L
Fresh water tank 120 L*

The boat is very light if we consider that it has an heavy 200hp engine. I guess that is possible because this boat has an incredible low B/D ratio (17%), so low that had not passed the EC certification for a class A boat and is a B class boat (a well designed 30ft sailboat can pass an A certification). The category boat limits the boat to a Force 8 and 4m waves.

And even so they advertise the boat as: *"easy to manage in every condition, ... able to drive you to the farest locations "*

I have seen many ridiculous statements regarding sailboats but I guess this one beats them all. Obviously this boat would not be capable of rising from a knock down and contrary to a multihull ,that has a huge righting moment and is very difficult to capsize due to their huge beam, this boat has a beam that would not be considered big even considering performance cruisers.

Note that I am not saying that is a badly designed boat for what was designed to do (it seems that it even sails reasonably well) but regarding the program the shipyard advertises it to be suited for.

There are some details that are just unbelievable: In a boat that has a very limited stability (for a sailboat) why the hell did they impoverish more that already weak stability with a radar high on the mast and not have it lower in a pole on the transom?

The boat has a nice interior.


----------



## PCP

*Xp 44*

A great movie with a great performance cruiser:






and for those that did not saw it, a test sail:


----------



## PCP

*Nm 38*

I have already talked about this boat. I remember that I had posted the drawings. It is a 2010 boat and a Maurizio Cossutti design. In fact the boat has a hull not very different from the one of the Salona 38. It is lighter (5500kg to 6500kg), it has a similar B/D ratio (31%), a close beam and most of all is the *NEW WORLD ORCI CHAMPION* in its class.

http://www.nmyachts.it/allegati/brochurenm38.pdf

It is also a beautiful boat with a good cruising interior and to top the cake, it is not particularly expensive, about 165 000 euros without Iva. I would say, an interesting sailboat




















































And the they have a 43 (NM43) that is also a blast:


----------



## robelz

*Re: Nm 38*



PCP said:


> I would say, an interesting sailboat


Interesting? Amazing! Do you think, there is also any cruising potential?


----------



## PCP

*Nm 38/ Salona 38/ Comet 38/ Italia 1098/ M37*



robelz said:


> Interesting? Amazing! Do you think, there is also any cruising potential?


And why not? I like a lot these small shipyards that are run by enthusiasts and sailors that can adapt the boat to each owner needs and desires. Of course if you want a boat with the specifications of the one that won the world championship it will be a week cruiser type but they can adapt the boat for whatever you want, even for long range cruising. The interior is a nice one for cruising.

The boat has standard a diesel tankage of 150L that is more than enough given the brilliant sailing performance and only 100L of water that makes it a cruising boat with about a week autonomy. But I am absolutely sure that they can duplicate without any problem that tankage and even triplicate it if that is what you want.

There are more boats like this one, some very expensive, like the Sly 38 that is one of this year nominee for the performance European boat of the year but also others not as expensive like the IT 1098, from the same designer. It looks a lot more classic but its performances has nothing of a classic boat.

http://www.italiayachts.it/download/specifications/10-98/it.pdf






Regarding the world ORCI championship that was run in Finland this year the classification was this:

1º NM 38S, 2º (with the same points and the same number of won races) Salona 37, 3º Modified First 36.7, 4º NM38S, 5º X-332s, 6º Salona 37.

It is a pity that while the world ORCI championship is growing in weight and dimension it is still a top amateur championship and that means that the boats racing are most of the time local boats (in this case, North of Europe) and that just don't give us an overall perspective. Off course those guys have great racing boats and race at high level so that means that the NM is a very competitive boat.

The Nm38 have been winning not only in the North of Europe, it won also the Italian championship. The second was a Comet 38s (with the same number of victories). Another NM 38 come in 3th, a GS 37, another Comet 38, a M37 and a Italia 10.98 were next.

The M37, also a Mario Cossutti design, is also winning a lot. Also a very beautiful boat:

M37 Escandalo: a further confirmation*-*Sport*-*News*-*Yacht OnLine






Salona is also winning races. Besides that second place on the World ORCI championship, a Salona 35 won Garmin Hamble Winter Series, a Salona 34 won Helsinki Tallinn Race and a Salona 37 won International Caribbean Conservation Regatta.

Have a look at the Comet 38s, probably the one with better quality interiors:






All great boats

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And here we have strategic play again, and Armel seems better at it then François. On the Drag race Armel was slowly losing miles to François. It has at 40nm when the Drag race finish. On the strategic play, in few hours, Armel won almost 30 to François and if I am reading well, it will continue to lose on the next hours.

That is just great, a faster sailor (or with a better sail) against a better tactician on much the same boat (the hull is identical, only the keel is different). Cool

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

and while some get nasty weather....some others just Rock (see the last movie)





Retour au calme pour Arnaud Boissièress _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Smoke on the water _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Tall ships*

The first time I knew that one day I would sail away happened when I was a 6 or 7 year old kid, looking at the white Fleet sailing out along the river bound to New Found Land. I wished to be with them. Every year my father and me, as a good part of Lisboetas went to the river banks to say goodbye and wish them good luck. Funny as those images still linger in my memory.

Later I had the privilege of knowing two of the Captains that used to sail those ships. I know that sailing them was just very hard and no fun, most of the time, but even so I remain fascinated by them.

So, just some good surviving movies of that era, most of them filmed by Allan Villiers. The first two about the white Fleet and Portuguese cod fisherman, the others about the Cap Horn road and the voyage of Joseph Conrad. Finally some modern ones with surviving Tall Ships sailing in heavy weather. I hope you enjoy as much as I, when I revisited these favorites of mine, I mean the old movies


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Revolution 22*

This is one of the most improbable boats that I could think off: An offshore 22ft aluminum pocket cruiser with a rounded bow. not only the material seems odd in a 22ft cruiser as the concept in itself is very unusual, lifting keel and all.

This is a David Raison project. David is not only a NA as a sailor and a racer that has come up previously with this strange mini racer:






Ok, all could see that the boat was fast downwind and in flat water but most raised doubts about sailing with waves specially upwind where the disadvantages of the concept are obvious. Most thought that the boat would not be competitive in real demanding conditions like the ones that are found on a Transat.

Than he won the France-Brasil mini Transat






and sailors start to think that this concept after all worked and start to think that he would come up with a 40class racer along the same design principles. Well, it is very possible that would happen, but the boat that he announced as the second to have this concept was a 22ft aluminum pocket offshore cruiser and again most were left with an open mouth






And now they have presented the boat:















Not only it seems to sail very well as I start to like the little bugger. If I was a young cruiser alone (or a couple), dreaming with voyaging and had not much money I guess that I would be sold to the idea. After all this is a very solid boat with an acceptable stability, an incredible standing height of 1.90m and a positively incredible interior space that includes a true head and all. On top of this the boat sails well and is sold at the incredible price of less than 50 000 euros and that including 20% VAT. That is about the same price of a J70.

This is pretty much the boat for an adventurous young cruiser that wants a pocket cruiser, not expensive, very resistant, transportable with a minimum of maintenance, fast and a go anywhere boat, a kind of four wheel drive. The boat can be transported anywhere, it can go almost anywhere and can look for shelter on any creek or little river. It needs only to pull the keel up.

This is a very interesting boat, the question is: There is a market for it? Curiously I would say that there is a bigger market for pocket cruisers in America than in Europe but I doubt that the more traditional American taste in boats would permit it to have success there.

I remain very curious about this boat and its success, or not, on the market.

....


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Before the daily report and waiting for their translation of the Day Highlights, tak a look at these images. Look at the speed and the sea.

Bertrand talks about gusts with 35/43K and that on these occasions the boat goes to a dangerous "overspeed", I guess, over 30K speed. really impressive, these boats sailing on autopilot with this seas and speed.





Bertrand de Broc au large de Saint-Paul _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Bernard Stamm : « On a failli avoir un vrac en... _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## opc11

I really like those Southerlies. If I could afford one. I think it would be something very similar. Well built, capable of blue water and getting up rivers (or away from others at mooring) and very well thought out.

I've been making a list of other boats with swing keels. I simply love the concept.


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## PCP

opc11 said:


> I really like those Southerlies. If I could afford one. I think it would be something very similar. Well built, capable of blue water and getting up rivers (or away from others at mooring) and very well thought out.
> 
> I've been making a list of other boats with swing keels. I simply love the concept.


The Southerlies only have a defect. The are expensive.

Paul and Sheryl Shard (that couple that makes for many years documentaries around the world on cable TV) traded their old boat for a 42 and some years later bought a 49. It seems that they are living well and it seems they like the Southerlies and those two know one or two things about bluewater boats.

Southerly - News - Distant Shores New Season

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distant_Shores_(Sailing_TV_series)





















Regards

Paulo


----------



## opc11

PCP said:


> The Southerlies only have a defect. The are expensive.
> 
> Paul and Sheryl Shard (that couple that makes for many years documentaries around the world on cable TV) traded their old boat for a 42 and some years later bought a 49. It seems that they are living well and it seems they like the Southerlies and those two know one or two things about bluewater boats.
> 
> Southerly - News - Distant Shores New Season
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distant_Shores_(Sailing_TV_series)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


When I started looking into Southerly i came across them. They had a great blog discussing their boat and its modifications/preparations. I really enjoy learning about how people prep/modify boats for long distance cruising. There's such a wealth of knowledge! ...just like this thread


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## hannah2

Yes, thanks Paulo for the great videos of the southerly 42. Let me tell you it is constantly rain and snow mix here in Hood River and we have not had a look at the sun in weeks. That couple beaching the 42 made our day. We were not planing going to the Bahamas but we might just change our mind. We plan on occasion doing what they did with their southerly with the Boreal 44. Nice boat that Southerly where is it made, I can't remember?


----------



## PCP

*Southerly 42*



hannah2 said:


> Yes, thanks Paulo for the great videos of the southerly 42. Let me tell you it is constantly rain and snow mix here in Hood River and we have not had a look at the sun in weeks. That couple beaching the 42 made our day. We were not planing going to the Bahamas but we might just change our mind. We plan on occasion doing what they did with their southerly with the Boreal 44. Nice boat that Southerly where is it made, I can't remember?


Jesus man, that should have pissed a lot of British. That is one of the last survivors (and one of the most successful) of the once prosperous British pleasure yacht industry.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

The battle between those two has been great. It seems I was right. On the last post I have said that it seemed to me that Armel was slightly better at the strategic play and François slightly better at pure speed and this seems to be a pattern now:

Armel overtook François when the game was strategic, François come again and overtook Armel on the Drag race. Time for Drag race now

Last night the third, Jean-Pierre did not look to be doing the right speed to the wind he has. Now we know that he has problems: He had to go up on the mast and it is the second one that does that with the boat sailing and this time it seems to have been in even worst sea conditions than Stamm. I would have loved to see a video with that stunt.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

All explained here with detail by them and more :

How quickly the hunter becomes the hunted. Francois Gabart (MACIF) re-took his lead on Wednesday morning, 15 hours after losing it to Armel Le Cléac'h (Banque Populaire). They also both passed the halfway mark on the theoretical mileage for the race and seem destined to play cat and mouse round the world. Just as Armel The Jackal chewed his way to Gabart slowly, likewise Gabart fought his way back a mile every hour. Gabart is just 5.3 miles ahead of Le Cléac'h and only 20 miles to the north as they race in the direction of the Auckland Islands, south of New Zealand.

Matthew Pryor

*For several days now, third-placed Jean-Pierre Dick has been unable to use two of his headsails - his staysail and gennaker - on Virbac-Paprec 3. The part that holds the top of the sail was broken. Despite the extreme southern latitude, Jean-Pierre Dick climbed up the mast last night (French time) for a dangerous operation that lasted two hours and allowed the Nice-based skipper to replace the damaged part with a new one.

"I had been waiting for favourable weather conditions to climb up the mast for several days. It is a risky type of operation but I had no choice. You're by yourself, there's strong wind and a rough sea and, to top it all, it's cold and you're in the screaming fifties. Needless to say, you ask yourself a lot of questions before climbing up there.
"I waited until the conditions were calmer and I set Virbac-Paprec 3 running downwind to slow her down to 10 knots. Climbing up the mast and going down was quite perilous, you're shaken right and left, I wasn't very confident. I managed to replace the damaged part.

"I'm very happy I did it because in this part of the world, you don't get that many opportunities to go and become an aerial acrobat. Virbac-Paprec 3's potential is back to what it used to be, which is great news for the rest of the race."*

Captain's log, A. Thomson: " The pilot accidently gybed the boat "

I was in my bunk this morning when the pilot accidently gybed the boat in about 25 knots of wind. It was not an enjoyable moment, having your whole world turn on its side in an instant. I felt the boat start to go and jumped out of my bunk to try and get to the helm to stop it but I only got as far as the companion way before she went, and then she was on her side. It took me a while to get the boat upright again and then gybe back. I did a check around the boat and it seems that I got away with no serious damage. It is really rough out here. Very bumpy and really confused waves. I am trying not to go too fast at the moment as she starts to slam a bit.

Yesterday highlights:





Day 39 highlights - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## hannah2

*Re: Southerly 42*



PCP said:


> Jesus man, that should have pissed a lot of British. That is one of the last survivors (and one of the most successful) of the once prosperous British pleasure yacht industry.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Ya but that is one more company than we have in America that builds a somewhat modern designed boat of high quality.

Looking forward to your centerboard list. Hope they all have great videos of beaching in warm places.

Later

Steve


----------



## PCP

*Xp 33*

One of the first sail tests by Yacht Magazine. I guess they were impressed. The sail test title is *"Danish dynamite"*

very nice *MOVIE*:

Danish Dynamite: XP-33 im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Take a look at this Polar and you will see why:

http://www.x-yachts.com/uploads/Speed_Guide_Xp_33_Alu.PDF

and some pictures of the project. Dam, a boat so beautiful has to sail well


----------



## PCP

*Best of from Sailing news*


----------



## PCP

*Figaro II in trouble*

That is a great video that was posted on another thread by James Wilson but as this thread seems to be the local where those that like fast boats hang around, here it is:






Not a very frequent figure on a Figaro II that is a solo racing boat and therefore with a bigger tolerance than a boat designed to do full crewed racing.

These are no amateuts but professional racers testing the boat limits. They are followed not by a reporter boat bot by their coach that is filming for analyzing the performance and errors later with them. I guess they had a lot to analyze that day

They explain the accident:

They where training at the EMC Training (Training Center Mediterranean).

On the boat Xavier Macaire and Yves Le Blevec going at 15 knots downwind with a 35K wind. They put up their small spinnaker and quickly pass to 20K speed. "Normally Macaire says, the Figaro, it's manageable on these conditions ..." Except that in this case, the operation resulted in an involuntary spectacular figure, the kind it is usual in multihulls.

The mistake? "We had not moved all the equipment to the back of the boat and we had to sail well downwind to stay away of the coast," said Macarius. "So it was difficult for Yves to unload the bow." Good result.


----------



## PCP

*K2, avery strange but fast sailing boat: 36K*

Well, I would not know how to sail this one

But seems great fun to me.


----------



## PCP

*A great movie about Joshua Slocum.*

*Sailing Alone Around the World*

Don't miss this one


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

This race is beginning to look epic. I never saw anything like that. After all it seems that Armel can be as fast as François and they keep pushing, overtaking one another several times a day in a kind of crazy match race on the furious fifties averaging 19k over 24 hours leaving everybody behind. Actually they are so close that sometimes they can see each other

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

*"Sailing their own match race into the open wilds of the Pacific, the leading duo in the Vendée Globe have begun to extend away again. But not from each other. Armel Le Cléac'h (Banque Populaire) said he could see Francois Gabart (MACIF), no more than two miles away they passed the Auckland Islands, on the radar overnight. For his part, Gabart sent home a video trying, but not wholly succeeding, to show Le Cléac'h's sails in the distance.

The two did not hesitate as they crossed the Campbell Plateau, with the big rough seas caused by the vertiginous shelf on its western boundary. Le Cléac'h spoke of hand steering through an area where the human touch is more responsive than even these modern autopilots.

Le Cléac'h maintained the slenderest of leads - just 2.2 miles - at the 1500hrs UTC ranking. "We could see each other (Gabart) in the fog," Le Cléac'h said. "I wanted to talk to him on the VHF, it didn't work,but, no, I'm not mad at him or anything. I'm definitely keeping an eye on him, though."

Denis Horeau, the race director for four of the seven editions (the first in 1989 and the last three since 2004-05), cannot remember anything like it. "

Matthew Pryor*





Day 41 highlights - Thursday, December 20, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## monsieur bis

*Re: XP 33*

I saw the XP33 at the Nautique and I have to say I was left a little puzzled. It seemed to me neither super fast (it's too heavy for that at 4,300kg) nor with enough amenities down below to be useable as anything more than a weekend cruiser, and even then it's pretty spartan down below. The WC for example is basically unusable the way it is set up now.

I realize that my reaction is purely personal and that it's hard to get the balance right between speed and cruisability in a boat like this. For example, I prefer the bargain struck in the new Winner 9.00. See images attached.


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Winner 9.00*



monsieur bis said:


> I saw the XP33 at the Nautique and I have to say I was left a little puzzled. It seemed to me neither super fast (it's too heavy for that at 4,300kg) nor with enough amenities down below to be useable as anything more than a weekend cruiser, and even then it's pretty spartan down below. The WC for example is basically unusable the way it is set up now.
> 
> I realize that my reaction is purely personal and that it's hard to get the balance right between speed and cruisability in a boat like this. For example, I prefer the bargain struck in the new Winner 9.00. See images attached.


Hi there

Welcome to the thread and thanks for having posted. It seems a very interesting sailboat.

A little introduction for the ones that don't know winner yachts: Winner yachts is a Dutch shipyard that, as almost all Dutch shipyards, makes high quality and somewhat expensive sailboats. He has being doing so on the last 26 years.

Initially the boats were sportive and fast (the brand was founded by two offshore racing sailors) but with the time their designs become a bit outdated, were not renovated fast enough in what regards sailboat design improvements and the boats were not fast anymore (at least compared with other performance cruisers).

Then some 5 years ago things changed with the Winner 12.20, a boat that was already posted on this thread, a modern boat with a great B/D ratio, a fast and seaworthy boat with a great high quality interior. I have been inside that boat and I was impressed with the quality.

The boat is a performance boat and a great cruiser but in what regards s a dual purpose utilization, meaning while racing, it is not a match for other performance boats. It was not a big success (I guess because it was expensive) and its racing record is quite small. He just won some minor races. More then a great dual purpose boat the Winner 12.20 was and his a fantastic high quality seaworthy fast cruising boat, one that I wouldn't mind to own






It seems that they have survived the low number of sales (Dutch are a very faithful kind if clients) and presented another modernly designed boat, a 30ft designed by Cees van Tongeren (Van de Stadt design) .










Looking at the design information it seems to be a fantastic boat, light (3 100Kg) with a good D/B (39%) with a moderate draft and a relatively modern hull.

Of course I don't believe that weight is the one of the classic version, that I think was the one showed on Bis photos, but the one regarding the performance version that probably will be as naked as the Xp33.

Comparing with the XP 33, that is a bigger boat, the Disp/Lenght rario will not be much different (171.1 to 166) being slightly lower on the winner but that is partly due to a bigger ballast ratio on the Xp (40% to 39%). Both boats share similar draft, similar keels and somewhat similar hulls in what regards Length-to-Beam Ratio but there are some differences being (in my opinion) the XP hull a more modern one and one that would offer a better performance, specially in what regards planning and downwind sailing.

The differences regards rocker on the forward sections (bigger on the Winner), finer entries, beam more aft and a transom more adequate to easy downwind control, one that will provide also more hull form stability.



















A bigger rocker on the forward sections will eventually give the winner a slightly better sea motion but will not make as easy the transition to planning.

Regarding the transom and the big more carried aft (that is not extreme in the Xp 33) I can see no justification for that. It seems to me that the Xp is just a more modern and effective hull design.





































Regarding the Xp being an incredibly fast boat, well, after the enthusiastic reactions of all that sailed the boat, including boat testers, it seems that there is no doubt about that and I have no doubt that it will be a winner on the race course.

We will have to wait to see if the winner will be a winner and how it compares with the Xp 33, but I have no doubt the the winner 9.00 is a great and very fast cruising boat with a interior more luxurious than the one of the Xp 33. That if course, comes with a price.

The 30ft winner costs € 102.330 with 21% VAT included. It looks to me that they are making an effort regarding price of previous boats.

The Xp33 (bigger boat), that is also an expensive boat costs with the same VAT 127.000 euros but that really means little in comparative terms. To be meaningful we would have to see what was the specifications offered at that price.

Regards

Raulo


----------



## monsieur bis

*Re: Wnner 9.00*

Thank you Paulo for your reply. I agree with your analysis of the difference in hull form between the two boats. The narrow entry of the Xp 33 is readily apparent when looking at the boat out of the water, and it is felt when in the forward v berth area. It looks to me like Van de Stadt has decided to have the max beam further forward in order to allow more space for the saloon and the forward berth area. I guess my disappointment with the Xp 33 stems from the fact that it is 1320kg heavier than a X-99, a boat that I have fond memories of. I would say it would take a veritable gale to get either the Xp 33 or certainly the Winner up on a plane. From my experience, the number of boats that actually get up on a plane is much smaller than people think.

I hope next years European Boat of the Year includes the Xp 33, the Winner and the Pogo 30 in the small boat category. To my mind they are three quite different, yet well thought out boats.

Best,

Frédéric


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wnner 9.00*



monsieur bis said:


> Thank you Paulo for your reply. I agree with your analysis of the difference in hull form between the two boats. The narrow entry of the Xp 33 is readily apparent when looking at the boat out of the water, and it is felt when in the forward v berth area. It looks to me like Van de Stadt has decided to have the max beam further forward in order to allow more space for the saloon and the forward berth area. I guess my disappointment with the Xp 33 stems from the fact that it is 1320kg heavier than a X-99, a boat that I have fond memories of. I would say it would take a veritable gale to get either the Xp 33 or certainly the Winner up on a plane. From my experience, the number of boats that actually get up on a plane is much smaller than people think.
> 
> I hope next years European Boat of the Year includes the Xp 33, the Winner and the Pogo 30 in the small boat category. To my mind they are three quite different, yet well thought out boats.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Frédéric


Frédéric,the A99 was and his a great boat and a great design in its time










and it is true that was it was lighter with 2890 kg to 4330kg but the Xp 33 has more 400kg of ballast so that difference is reduced to about 1000kg. if we consider that the X33 has about more 36cms im the LWL and more 21cms of beam that diffrence is explained.

Much more than that small difference in weight is the difference in power (stability) between the two boats. Not only the Xp 33 has more beam, a more modern hull that maximizes form stability (specially downwind) as it has a hugely more efficient keel with all the ballast in a torpedo. The Xp33 maximizes even more that more efficient keel with a difference in draft (1.90 to 1.75m).

I don't think that the slight bigger B/D ratio of the X99 (44% to 40%) can compensate the difference in RM on the Xp33 provided by the bigger draft and most of all by the fact that all the ballast is on the XP 33 down on a torpedo. Of course, more 21 cms of beam is a lot (in 3.0m of beam) and that will also contribute to make the Xp 33 a much more powerful boat and even if the boat has probably more wet surface due to the bigger displacement that difference is diminished by a keel with a lot less wet area.

You can see that difference in power reflected in the sail area both boats can carry downwind, the X99 carry a spy with about 80m2 and the Xp33 one with 93m2.

Regarding planning, I agree with you in what regards performance boats heavily charged for cruising, but when discharged for racing there are some boats that start to plane with medium winds and this is one if them.

We can see on a boat test that the boat is planning doing about 15K speed with a 20K wind. In this boat with this size of hull, we can consider that 10k is already a planning speed, since it is way more than hull speed. I guess that for reaching that speed the boat does not need much wind, if it carries a large spinnaker or geenaker, and the Xp33 has just the potential stability to do that without any problem.

Take a look at the Xp33 planning with 20K wind:











Cheers

Paulo


----------



## Faster

The 'flip wheel' on the Winner is a clever idea.. gives the helmsperson lots of options without the complexity of twin wheels, or too large a diameter single.

Thanks once again, Paulo, for the efforts put into this thread!


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> The 'flip wheel' on the Winner is a clever idea.. gives the helmsperson lots of options without the complexity of twin wheels, or too large a diameter single.
> 
> Thanks once again, Paulo, for the efforts put into this thread!


Thanks. Many other yachts have that system that is on the market. One of them is Sirius and yes I agree that the system has advantages but not properly on that boat where I think a tiller would make a lot more sense. A 30ft performance sailing boat with a wheel does not make much sense to me.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Yachts*

Yes, 30ft performance boats really don't have great cruising interiors. Let's see some boats with good cruising interiors


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Hanse 575*

A very interesting boat that seems to follow the new trend: Boats with a huge freeboard that is somewhat disguised by a small cabin. The new top of the range Bavaria works on the same principle. The boat actually looks really nice when heeled while sailing. Only when it is upright you notice the massive freeboard that provides a huge interior standing height, one so big that you actually need a ladder to open hatches .

It is a very well design and I am quite sure that if they design the boat with that interior height is because clients will want it like that even if I don't understand why, but then I am not a client for that boat It seams to me that they could take away a foot of freeboard and even so have a good interior height. I would certainly prefer it that way and get ride of the windage that extra height would provide.

But except that it seems a very impressive boat ; fast, stable and very easy to sail, even by a couple. An impressive boat.

It was tested by Yachtworld and they said about it:

*'Fast cruising, easy sailing' is Hanse's motto for their new 575, a judel/vrolijk design aimed at getting places quickly and easily. The German company's new big boat is a big boat indeed, with plentiful freeboard height buying a voluminous and light interior, whilst keeping a clean looking deck and sleek coachroof that's so low it barely rises from the teak.

The height of the Hanse 575 also buys room for a jet tender to stow in a garage in the transom - a hydraulic platform lowers to allow the Rib to roll out, and it can be launched and retrieved by one person. Her shallow companionway leads into a vast one-level interior, with a three-cabin layout on the test boat, each with its own heads. But up to 1.5m is a lot of topside to be confronted by and can make just boarding the boat an issue.

Could the Hanse 575 be all things to all people I wondered as we tested her? A fast, spacious, distance-munching cruiser that could be sailed by a couple, ship a practical tender for when you arrive plus the mod-cons to make her feel like a home from home? I was certainly glad there were only two of us aboard and a fresh breeze, as it proved she is actually a very capable boat and indeed manageable shorthanded.

And I think that for a boat that will cost around £400k (with taxes and options), she makes for a smart yet movable second home. See what you think...
*.


----------



## PCP

*Boreal 44/Allures 45/OVNI 445*



hannah2 said:


> Ya but that is one more company than we have in America that builds a somewhat modern designed boat of high quality.
> 
> Looking forward to your centerboard list. Hope they all have great videos of beaching in warm places.
> 
> Later
> 
> Steve


OK Steve, not all, there some more but let's just have a look at the French direct competition to your boat.

I have already said that you have chosen one of the best boats to voyage and mainly to explore places with a difficult access but I guess we would like to hear from you why you have chosen the Boreal 44 over any of the other two.

It was not for price, I think that the Boreal is slightly more expensive, so can you tell you the reasons for your choice? I Guess we all, and specially the ones that are interested in these boats will be very interested

Sorry about the bad quality movie about the Boreal but its all I can find. You should tell the guys from Boreal that good movies in internet helps to sell boats 

*Allures 45:*





















*Boreal 44:*











Voilier - Boréal 44, élu

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*The race*

While we wait for Steve post and before having a look at the Vendee Globe ker me talk about the other race I like has much as the Vendee one that I wait eagerly for the repetition, a even madder one. That is about the same as the vendee, I mean, around the world without scale or assistance but without limits.

Without limits is just that, you can race with any kind of boat and with the crew you want. Crazy? You bet

*The second edition of The Race, the crewed race round the world with no limits on board the planet's largest multihulls, will be taking place in 2013 or 2014. Bruno Peyron has decided to relaunch the great event and agreed to talk to OceanRacing about his project.*






The first on only RACE was 12 years ago, to commemorate the millennium:

*Created by the French sailor Bruno Peyron, The Race started on 31st December 2000, as a way to celebrate our arrival in the third millennium with a global ocean race. The Race was the first race around the world without limits, in other words it was open to boats without any size restrictions. The total freedom that was given to designers led to the birth of a new generation of sailboats, maxi-multihulls, now known as the G-Class.

For the first edition of The Race, six giant multihulls set out from the start in Barcelona to sail around the world via the three capes (Good Hope, Leeuwin and the Horn). Five of them completed the race in Marseilles. The reference time for the race was set by the New Zealander Grant Daltonaboard the maxi-catamaran Club Med, which completed the voyage in 62 days, 56 minutes and 33 seconds.*

http://www.therace.org/the-race/?lang=en

A great movie about the first RACE:


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

While Stamm had taken shelter under the Auckland Islands to try to fix the hidrogenerators, this race continues with a relentless mach race for the lead. Now is François that leads but Armel is at only 22nm.

Amazingly Jean-Pierre, after an incredible reparation on the top of the mast, is recovering distance He is still at 470nm, but that's a long race.

Some great videos with the 3 guys and their boats:


----------



## hannah2

Hi Paulo,

Sorry had a post almost done when I received an email to do a weather routing through the convergence zone. 

A bit of history. My wife and I are old Yankee New Englanders who have sailed from when we were small kids. Being yankee we are also very traditional when it comes to boats. That was until our last crossing of the Pacific starting in 2007 in our Mason 44. In the S. Pacific we started seeing these aluminum centerboard, mostly Ovni's and Garcias cutter rigs. On board were French cruisers with if I might say,"shat eating grins" on their face. They were coming back from Antartica , sailing to atolls we could only sail by because we had too much draft. But always in love with their boats. Those boats for their size were fast but comfortable, one can throw out all the old math for waterline and stability. Both my wife Tracy and I started to see something new, something to understand and research, something we N. Americans were not hearing much about. 

We sold our Mason in NZ because our kid wanted to go to High school and not be home schooled anymore. As he was about to graduate and get kicked out of the house my wife mentioned we should get a new boat instead of a used boat. And that it better be a French aluminum centerboard design. Wow what a lucky man I am, eh! We did our research on the Ovni and Garcia and a few others. Then a cruising friend who himself was looking for something in the same lines mentioned Boreal. There was not much information, same as there is now but there was something I really liked about the design, Function and Form.

I contacted all the yards and gave them my sad story about selling our last boat and looking for a new one. I heard back from Boreal and they loved the old yankee designs and thought I would love to see and sail something new and amazing. They invited me over but said I needed to stay for a week so I could not only understand the boat but also how they build them. So I went.

So that started a damn good friendship and business association. On my last day I simply shook hands with Jean-Francois Delvoye, the designer of the Boreal 44 and Jean-Francois Eeman his business partner and told them to build me a boat just send me the paperwork. 

That is how it started. We have been very happy over the first year of building, don't get me wrong we have our disagreements but easily solved with real discussion on boat design. Remember Function/form is what it is about. 

I will do another post soon on why we chose the Boreal design over the other French aluminum centerboard boats But now I got to go pick up the kid at the airport.


----------



## hannah2

The first thing that caught our interest in the Boreal 44 was the dog house. Fully watertight with a 360 degree view for bad weather and night watches. Even in the tropics we have found that late nite early morning watch cool and wet on a 25 kts beam reach. The dog house is set up with a chart table big enough to lay 2/3 size charts out flat. There is room for two to sit in the doghouse and there is room for most of your electronics. Also a place for the epirb and ditch bag.

Next thing was hull design: With the aluminum chine hull, the centerboard and the two dagger boards which give this cutter rigged boat great stability in sailing a strait line. We figure that we are going to come very close on a lot of days to 200 miles. Reason is the modern hull design and shape and those dagger boards. As most of you who own a true cutter rig you know the wobble where the stern seems to be moving starbord and port. Looking at your wake you see your not sailing perfectly strait. But on the Boreal put the lee dagger board down and the boat tracks true. While on a trial sail we didn't do anything special in trimming sails and I left the helm un attended for 45 minutes and the boat sailed perfectly strait in 15 kts of wind on a beam reach then tried a broad reach. If you put the auto pilot on and set a course then just sit around and watch the DC amp meter needle, it just does not move, the auto helm is not using much juice if any. I realize we didn't have big seas but still that is an astounding accomplishment in boat design in my opinion. I'm looking forward to see how the Wind Pilot self steering will work. We will be the first Boreal to have anything but auto pilot, the designer thinks I'm crazy to be putting one on his boat as there is little stress on the auto pilot.

Next on our list was storage. I hate anything on deck on passage, at a marina or at anchor. With the Boreal there is never a need to keep anything you don't want on deck there. The large lazzerette in the stern fits the inflatable and the outboard. No I can't have a hard rib any more and I'll miss that but at least I do not have to ever do a long passage with the rib on deck and an outboard on the back stanchion. Cabin storage is perfect and easy to get to. Our Mason had 87 total lockers of all sizes, the Boreal I do not think has that many but I believe it may have as much storage space.

Those are the first three major things we liked but more later.

Cheers and all have a happy holidays


----------



## PCP

*Boreal 44/OVNI 445/Allures 45*

Thank you very much by your very interesting posts.

Two recommendations if you allow me:

Don't put a radar on the mast or use furling main. The boat as an adequate stability and AVS but one that should not be diminished anyway.

Mount a top of the rage electric/electronic autopilot. You can use the wind-vane with good weather to save energy but its performance in bad weather is very far away from the one of a good modern autopilot. Regarding that you can see in the videos I have been posted about the Vendee Globe how much abuse they can sustain. You will be very happy to have a modern autopilot as soon as the first storm you get. Modern boats have a better performance in bad weather if they keep sailing and with a top of the range auto pilot, if the sails are well regulated, you can leave the autopilot doing the work and go to sleep.

Regarding the Boreal 44 I like everything you say and is in mine opinion a better boat than the OVNI 445 (that is a great boat) and a boat comparable in performances with the Allures 45, maybe even a bit faster. It should be but I don't know, the Allures is a bit more powerful and I don't know if the design of the hull is not a bit better..

The only reserve I have on the boat and something that makes me a bit of confusion is how someone that is not a NA neither an NE chooses to design its own boat instead of working his good ideas with a good NA? That is what happened with Allures, that has a very similar story in what regards its beginnings:

The story begun some years ago with the Allures 44 and two friends, both engineers, that were not satisfied with the market offer regarding the boat they wanted for long voyaging. They talked with a lot of professional sailors, with people that had circumnavigated, joined that information with their own ideas and went to Berret-Racopeau to discuss the boat, that was later designed by that great naval firm. There was so many people liking their boat that they started a business that today is a big success.

With the Boreal 44, the owner made a boat, circumnavigate and according with the knowledge he reunited, designed and made a new boat, a better one, the Boreal 44. Then the same thing happened, lots of people liking the boat, and the guy turned in a successful boat builder.

I find difficult that a boat designed by an amateur would perform as well as a boat designed by qualified professionals with many years of practice but the truth is that the boat was tested by many and all find it an excellent sailing boat, being even elected as Voile magazine boat of the year by many testers.

Comparing the basic dimensions of the boats, the Boreal 44 has a LWL of 11.63 m, the OVNI 445 - 12.70m, the Allures 45 - 12.35.

Beam: Boreal-4.30m, the OVNI - 4.29m, Allures - 4.43m

Displacement: Boreal - 10 290kg, OVNI - 10 600kg, Allures - 11 800kg

B/D ratio: Boreal - 37%, OVNI - 32%, Allures - 37%

As we can see in what regards beam there is not many differences, being the Allures the one with the bigger beam but in what regards B/D there is a big difference between the Boreal/Allures and the OVNI.

In what regards stability and power the Allures has a bit more since it has less weight on the deck (that is made of cored composite to be lighter) and has a bit more form stability, but the difference to the OVNI, in what regards that is really considerable and I am sure that reflects not only in power but also on a better AVS on the other two boats.

I am going away to have Christmas with all the Family, so I will not be around on the next days. I wish to You, to all that follow this thread a merry Christmas, specially to the ones that have contributed and they are already many

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

Yes, we hope that you, your family and everyone reading your great thread has a very happy holiday. You should make a book out of this thread as there is so much information on it. I wonder if forum members understand how much good info is here on interesting sailboats.

You are right about the top of the line auto pilot. We will go with the best as far as we know. NKE auto pilot with their hydralic ram. Most Americans do not know about NKE products unless they are serious racers offshore. I am looking forward to playing with the system when we get to sea trials. I am also looking forward to the Wind Pilot wind vane. Peter the owner of Wind Pilot and the Jean-francios's did a lot of work figuring out how one would mount with the swim platform on the Boreal. We will have radar on pole at stern like always.

I am amazed how JFD designed such a boat and not being a NA. But he has done so, and did you know his son was a very good NA for the French Navy. There have been many great and you can say famous sailors who have had the chance to sail the Boreal and swear it is the best boat of this kind they have ever sailed. There are great stories on Attainable Adventure Cruising on the Boreal and the experts there are very impressed. Also maybe soon a very famous sailor, a true hero in his/her country may be ordering a Boreal 44. I will not mention name for privacy. 

I want everyone to know that as great as this boat is there are compromises just like on any cruising boat. But one nice thing is the entire team at Boreal is interested on making things better and some times less French as they now have customers from all over the world. 

I have mentioned to Boreal why they do not have a better website. They reply that they would rather spend the time building boats and that they are doing very well in orders as is. Remember they only at this time build 6 or so boats a year. I would post pictures of our boat being built but out of respect for Boreal I will wait till we have have our own cruising blog which I will have a section on everything dealing with how the boat behaves and how she is built.

Again

Happy Holiday


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## jiriki

Has the Life 10.0 been mentioned in this thread?

life-yachts se/LIFE_yachts/LIFE_10.0. html

According to yacht. de [ yacht de/yachten_jollen/neue_boote/scharfe-schwedin-von-der-westkueste/a76569. html ] it will cost less than 100k and have more upwind and more downwind sail-area than the larger Pogo 10.50 

I think this will be a very interesting boat 

[Sorry, for the scrambled links, I haven't got enough posts, do be allowed to post urls  ]


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## monsieur bis

*Re: Boreal 44*

I am amazed how JFD designed such a boat and not being a NA. But he has done so...

I wanted to wish everyone a happy holidays as well,and wanted to congratulate Hannah2 on his taste in boats. I had the pleasure once of sailing on a Boreal 50 and I was incredibly impressed. And while the Boreal and the Allures are similar concepts in certain respects, they are also I think quite different. If I understand correctly the Boreal is more of what we in France call a dériveur lesté (a keel/centerboarder maybe in English), while the allures is more of a dériveur intégral (a centerboarder with internal ballast only). This means that a dériveur lesté has a shallow keel which houses the centerboard thus allowing it to be lower, as well as providing a lower placement of the lead ballast. The argument also goes that this shallow keel improves tracking. As far as I know the allures carries its ballast in its bilges and its centerboard is only heavy enough to insure it doesn't float given it is a NACA foil section and thus has volume. Because of all of this I would be very surprised if the allures had a lower center of gravity, even considering it has a fiberglass deck. In any event, this is how I understood the differences between the two boats. Once again happy holidays.

Best,

Frédéric


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## PCP

*Re: Boreal 44*



monsieur bis said:


> I am amazed how JFD designed such a boat and not being a NA. But he has done so...
> 
> .. And while the Boreal and the Allures are similar concepts in certain respects, they are also I think quite different. If I understand correctly the Boreal is more of what we in France call a dériveur lesté (a keel/centerboarder maybe in English), while the allures is more of a dériveur intégral (a centerboarder with internal ballast only). This means that a dériveur lesté has a shallow keel which houses the centerboard thus allowing it to be lower, as well as providing a lower placement of the lead ballast. The argument also goes that this shallow keel improves tracking. As far as I know the allures carries its ballast in its bilges and its centerboard is only heavy enough to insure it doesn't float given it is a NACA foil section and thus has volume. Because of all of this I would be very surprised if the allures had a lower center of gravity, even considering it has a fiberglass deck. In any event, this is how I understood the differences between the two boats.
> 
> Frédéric


It seems to me both concepts are similar:



















On boreal site they say:

*The ballast is housed in the keel box. Compared to a centreboarder, this again lowers the CG by several dozen cms. Unlike normal practice, we don't pile up lead blocks as ballast. At Boreal we construct moulds of every ballast compartment and we make massive lead blocks to fit each of them, resulting in a gain of 20 % in density.

All this efforts contribute to an impressive stability curve.*

and give the idea that the box is outside the hull and that is not the case.

For what I understand both boats are centerboards with all ballast inside since they have no ballasted keels and no box outside the hull, as some centerboarders have.

Regarding the keel, both boats can have profiled nacra centerboards beeing the one from the Allures slightly deeper and the boats have also two rudders so I cannot see how that improves the tracking.

I have the stability curve from the Allures 45. If Hannah2 can provide us with the one from Boreal 44 we can compare them but I don't expect it to be much different.

A good Christmas to you.

Regards

Paulo


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## opc11

More! More! Lol Merry Christmas to all! Love learning about how seasoned cruisers have outfitted their boats. When i get to my laptop, i'd be happy to share the short list of centerboard cruisers. Perhaps others will know of more.


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## hannah2

Sorry I never bothered to ask about the stability curve I'm not an NA. For me understanding how the boat sails in seas where stability math comes into play was what was important. 

The Boreal does have a keel lower than the hull, within that keel is the lead. The centerboard I believe weighs about 284 Kilo water neutral. Also remember that the Boreal has 100 meters of anchor chain centered just forward of the mast giving the boat more center of balance.


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## PCP

hannah2 said:


> Sorry I never bothered to ask about the stability curve I'm not an NA. For me understanding how the boat sails in seas where stability math comes into play was what was important.
> 
> The Boreal does have a keel lower than the hull, within that keel is the lead. The centerboard I believe weighs about 284 Kilo water neutral. Also remember that the Boreal has 100 meters of anchor chain centered just forward of the mast giving the boat more center of balance.


You don't need to be a NA to know how to read a stability curve and to see its good and bad points. Just need to have the knowledge for that and it is a lot less than the one needed to be a NA.

If you look at the photo of the Boreal and Drawing of the Allures 45 you can see that they are very similar and have not any significant space for ballast outside the hull. About 300Kg is also what weights Allures 45 centerboard, that like the one of the Boreal is made of solid aluminum. No lead ballast there.

Besides the type of boats like the Allures and the Boreal, there are boats that have all the the ballast inside a box outside the hull, some that have part of the weight inside and part outside in the keel (like the Southerlies), others that have all the ballast on a keel that can be swigged up, like the Pogo or the Opium and even others that have a bulbed keel that can be pulled vertically up.

I guess this covers all the types of variable draft boats that I know.

Regards

Paulo


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## G1000

*Allures 44*


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## hannah2

Wow! Allures 44 in the long long night.

Good Boats Don't Kill Sailors, Sailors kill Sailors!

That is one tough boat and one tough sailor.

More reasons we picked the Boreal over the Allures as both are strong tough boats but we felt the Boreal was a little more what we call industrial and we could work with the designer to customize. 

If you look at the cleats on deck between the two boats there is a major difference. The Allures are more standard design that you see on most sailboats. They are also through bolted because of fiberglass deck. On the Boreal the cleats are welded not only to the aluminum deck but have struts under neath and those are welded to deck and hull on the inside. They are also big enough to take a two inch line. That is something we see in far off places when you have to tie with a commercial fishing vessel or a stone pier. We had Boreal design a Sampson post for our bow, again it will come in handy in out of the way places. I wish boats would still put Sampson Posts on boats that are going off shore. 

We are also having a one inch high aluminum rib around the front and sides of all are deck hatches for protection. Again an old idea that is important to extreme conditions and use, just not seen anymore. We will also go with Goiot Hatches much stronger and safer than Lewmar hatches. No plastic locks or handles. 

Please ask questions if you have any. If I can answer your questions I will.

I know, I know! I'm obsessed with our new boat but how can I not be we are getting so close to June sea trials and putting everything in order to go cruising again.

Well it is Christmas day and it is snowing like crazy here in Oregon. Cooking our pet turkey whose name was Beatrice. Have fresh oysters and making oyster stuffing, better yet I got a good single malt in hand.

Hope you all are having or had a great holiday.


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## PCP

hannah2 said:


> ...
> 
> More reasons we picked the Boreal over the Allures as both are strong tough boats but we felt the Boreal was a little more what we call industrial and we could work with the designer to customize.
> 
> .....
> Hope you all are having or had a great holiday.


Yes, I am sure about that. That's why I also prefer to deal with smaller builders: they can be a lot more accommodating in what regards customizing a boat and that is very important for someone that knows what he really wants

Regarding having a great holiday, I had come back from my brother's house in Lisbon. It was is turn to host Christmas and is always a happy and boisterous reunion even more since the kids have now age to drink. Well, in two meals, 12 bottles of wine, 6 of Champagne, not counting whisky, Gin or Brandy and can you believe it, nobody drunk Our grand father made wine so I guess we all now how to appreciate it and drink it

Regards

Paulo


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## hannah2

You folks in Europe know how to drink, and make strong boats.


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## PCP

*Atlantic 43*



opc11 said:


> More! More! Lol Merry Christmas to all! Love learning about how seasoned cruisers have outfitted their boats. When i get to my laptop, i'd be happy to share the short list of centerboard cruisers. Perhaps others will know of more.


Ok, here you have my favorite. I was interested in the boat some years ago but the price was out of budget. The Atlantic 43 costs more than Half a million of Euros. The price has to do with the boat being a lot more complicated than a center-boarder with all the weight inside the boat. It is also a Dutch boat and Dutch makes very good boats (and have a big tradition in aluminum boats) but also very expensive boats.

Of course I like it strong but also like it fast and in what regards stability this boat is a monster

The boat, in the version of bulled lifting keel has a B/D ratio superior to the ones of the Boreal or Allures (40% to 37%) and that is with the keel up. But contrary to the other two boats that have the ballast inside, the Atlantic has the ballast on the keel, most of it in a bulb so when the bulb is down at 2.95m it will provide a RM massively superior to the ones of Boreal or Allures as well as an even better AVS.

That means a very seaworthy boat and a very powerful one, able to maintain a lot of sail up with bad weather, and off course, a very fast one.

The boat has a weight close to the one of the Boreal and is lighter than the Allures. It has the same beam has a Boreal 44 and also two rudders on its transom.

On the shipyard they say about the boat:

*Atlantic 43: Aluminium cruiser with flexible draft between 1,30 till 2,95 m in combination with double rudders. Aluminium sailing yachts .. for the absolute heaviest conditions during your worlds travel. Our yachts are real "All-Weather-Go-Any-Where" cruisers. The Atlantic 43 is designed by our yard together with naval architect Dick Zaal. They are unique in its kind and notable for robust, flowing lines, lifting keel and twin balance rudders. This combination ensures excellent sailing performance, to be compared with fixed keel boats, only with the advantage that the draft of the boat (lifting keel) can be changed. The combination of lifting keel and twin balance rudders makes it also possible to beach the boat, enter shallow waters, to arrive later in tidal harbors or to leave earlier.

Well considered design plus painstaking selected rigging makes the Atlantic 43 sailor-friendly. An ergonomically designed deck lay-out allowing for all sail handling to be carried out singlehanded. The Atlantic 43 is imbued with comfort, exactly for those moments when required the most: at sea. Real comfort is not defined by built-in contrivances, it is more a question of ergonomics: sitting, working and resting while underway should be comfortable. The custom built interior reflects the discerning taste of the owner and will be tailored to your requirements. Each Atlantic is a sturdy, safe floating home and a reliable investment for the owner. The craftmanship required to achieve the build quality is readily apparent and adds to the pleasure of sailing.*

Ok, to be fair boats like the Allures or the Boreal, not comparable in righting moment, power or speed have two big advantages: Price, simplicity and easy maintenance.

If I had the money I would exchange all that disadvantages by the superior stability and speed of the Atlantic 43 but all that being following this thread knows that I like very fast boats and boats that provide a lot of fun to sail.

For me the Atlantic 43 would fit more my style but I am not saying by any means that it is a better boat than the Boreal or Allures or that it would fit better other style of sailors. I am saying that this is also a great boat and one that can join the other two at the top of the ranking of voyage boats that can go anywhere.


















































































More than a year ago I had already posted about this boat, here it is what I have said than:



PCP said:


> I like so much the concept of a go anywhere strong boat that I have taken a lot of work looking for one, I mean one that besides those attributes had also the one that is difficult to have together with the others: Speed
> 
> And I have found it, a Dutch boat designed by Dick Zall, The Atlantic 43. It is a more than 6 old year design, but one that was so advanced for its time that I will gladly have one if I could pay the price (more than 500 000€).
> 
> The Atlantic 43 is an Aluminum boat with variable draft and a hull that is based on the Open 60 design. Bulb down it has around 3.00M draft, Bulb up 1.3M. ...and it has a much much bigger sail potential.
> 
> Just to give you an idea regarding the difference in stability and sail power, the Ovni has all the ballast inside the boat, near the gravity center and a Ballast/displacement of 36%. The Atlantic has a better Ballast/displacement ratio : 39% and has its ballast not inside the boat, but down, several meters
> under the boat center of gravity. The difference in stability will be huge, as the capacity to carry sail upwind as also the safety reserve stability and the AVS.
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## PCP

*The Sydney Hobart 2012*

is starting.

The boats:

The Yachts - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2012

The traker:

http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/tracker/

I am very curious about the performance of a Hanse 415, a brand new mass production cruiser among racers and performance cruisers


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## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart*

and the race starts to be notice by the wrong reasons:

*Wild Thing banned from Sydney-Hobart*

*The race committee of the Sydney-Hobart announces it won't accept the entry of Wild Thing just hours before this year's race kicks off.*

A DEVASTATED Grant Wharington has lashed out at a Rolex Sydney-Hobart ''conspiracy'', after Wild Thing was banned from the annual blue-water classic.

His lips trembling and close to tears, Wharington, the Wild Thing skipper, said he was "absolutely devastated" to be told his super maxi yacht had been banned from this year's race.

Wharington said he had been further insulted by an offer to sail down the 628 nautical mile course with the other yachts but not be part of the race.

Wharington said he believed he had been targeted by "a conspiracy" and suggested some officials at the Cruising Yacht Cub of Australia were biased against super maxi boats.

"We provided the documentation and we were told on Wednesday we could go and now it is withdrawn," Wharington said after a 30-minute meeting with the CYCA race committee during which he pleaded his case.

He and his crew headed back to the boat after leaving the CYCA where the plans to "demolish a few cases of beer."

CYCA Commodore Howard Piggott said Wharington had failed to file declarations from the designer and builder of Wild Thing that the yacht complied to ABS standards for racing boats.

Doubts had been cast over Wild Thing since race director Tim Cox told the Christmas Eve skipper's briefing that the yacht still owed him "heaps" of paperwork.

Yachts have to lodge documents covering their construction, any modifications, their international ratings certificate and compulsory safety checks before be given permission to start in the 628 nautical mile race.

Wharington was at the CYCA sailing office this morning to sign documents and he left the club to board his boat believing he had been cleared to start.

However Piggott said there was no way Wild Thing would be allowed to start and patrol boats on the harbour would be ordered to keep the yacht out of the race area.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

on the movie you can see why the boat was excluded.


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## daviid

*Re: The Sydney Hobart 2012*



PCP said:


> is starting.
> 
> The boats:
> 
> The Yachts - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2012
> 
> The traker:
> 
> Tracker - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2012
> 
> I am very curious about the performance of a Hanse 415, a brand new mass production cruiser among racers and performance cruisers


Hi Paulo

I am not sure if it really was the same boat as they say, but they finished third last over the line in real time in last years race. Maybe something to do with the crew?

I hop they surprise many this year

Merry Christmas and the best sailing winds for next season - I can't wait.

David


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## Telesail

Sorry to go back a few posts on this thread but the discussion on Aluminum boats was fascinating and particularly relevant to me as I am looking to buy something along those lines (perhaps Allure, Alubat or, now I have read the discussion, Boreal or Atlantic). While I am very taken with the whole variable draft thing, I think it is the advantages of Aluminum that I find most compelling. Does anyone have experience of the Alubat Cigale range and how it might compare to any of the other boats mentioned in terms of suitability for cruising?

Any insight gratefully received before I go touring French yards..........


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## PCP

*Re: The Sydney Hobart 2012*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> I am not sure if it really was the same boat as they say, but they finished third last over the line in real time in last years race. Maybe something to do with the crew?
> 
> I hope they surprise many this year
> 
> Merry Christmas and the best sailing winds for next season - I can't wait.
> 
> David


Hi David,

A good year to you too

Yes you are right, a boat with the same name finished the race in the position you mention but I don't understand how it could be a Hanse 415. The boat was launched last year and could not have been on the Hobbart.

Anyway I am curious because the boat even fast and with a good power for a cruiser (stability) is not very well suited for an upwind race: Too much beam.

in this year's race, skipping racing boats, the first true production performance cruiser is the Sydney GTS 43, the Ker design that now is made by Salona in Europe. I had posted about the boat recently, said that it was one of the faster performance cruisers around and really on another league than the First, Salona and Dehler, a very exclusive league with the really few cruisers with a good cruising interior that can be among racers in a race.

Just have a look at the boats behind:

25th-Elliot 44; 26th-JV52; 27th-Nelson Mareck 52 28th-Martens 49; 29th-Reichel Puig 42; 30th-Ker 40.

Of course it is not only the boat, those guys are doing a fantastic race, but without a great boat they could not be there, leaving behind a lot of bigger race boats, sailing a performance cruiser.










Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

The epic match race between Armel and François keeps going after several days. The rhythm is absolutely breathtaking and what those two guys are doing is absolutely fantastic.

If they can keep up with the pace they will be faster than the first record on the Jules Verne trophy (fastest time around the world). In *1993* Bruno Peyron managed what was regarded as an incredible time: 79 j 06 h 15 min 56 s, with a *crew of five on a 85ft multihull*. 9 years later a solo sailor on a 60ft monohull is menacing doing better.

There are some that just can't see the huge improvements the Open'60 brought on the last years to boat design and why they are the bigger influence on modern cruising boat's design. This amazing feat shows how fast has been the evolution on these boats and the incredible evolution towards easier boats to sail with a smaller crew or even solo.

On the back of the race you have an old 1998 Open 60, he is at almost 5000nm from the first and the guy is making a fantastic race. His boat is *25%* slower than the new boats

Back to the race: For now Armel managed to overtook François again but the distance is really minimal (11.2nm). The drag race is going to finish and ahead they have a very difficult strategic play. Big high pressure ahead and I don't have a clue about the best way to sail trough it. Maybe over it?

Anyway if they chose different ways the chances are that they end up out of it further apart.

Meanwhile Jean-Pierre seems the only one that can keep with this two in pure speed. He lost 150nm on the last days because he got caught on weaker winds but finally he has a good chance to recover several hundreds of miles to the leaders. The weather pattern is for the first time on the last weeks favorable to him.

*Armel le Cléac'h (FRA, Banque Populaire):

Hello. The sun is rising. The wind is smoother now. I can rest a little, because the last hours were very tonic. Last minutes of rest before going back to work.

There are different routes, so I have to make my choice. I keep on going with my strategy; we'll see how it goes. I feel like you guys are more worried than me. François and I are basically taking the same route. I have my journey planned, so I'm not stressed.

Captain's Log - Jean-Pierre Dick: "Every day is a new adventure"

I just gybe, there are 4.8 knots of wind, there is no air, it's crazy. However, there are still some big waves. It's amazing in the Southern Seas, even when there is no wind, the swell remains. The wind should be back in a few hours.

The elastic effect is really here. Yesterday, I earn 50 miles in the morning (French time) and I lost 162 miles in light winds. Nothing is played; every day is a new adventure.
*
Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





Le Best Of de Noël _por VendeeGlobeTV_


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## PCP

*Sydney Hobart / First 40*

I had said in precious years that the First 40 was the type of boat to race the Hobart and it seems that the racers agree: This year the First 40 is the model with more boats racing: 8

It seems that the guys that raced this one with 40 class racers got feed up with being beaten by performance cruisers and are racing on First 40 (just kidding)

And the one that is ahead is making a hell of a race, going in 33th. Ahead he has a Sydney 47 and behind it, some racers and bigger boats: IRC40, Gross 60, DK 46; Farr 40 are the ones immediately behind.

A bit confused by not having here racing some XP 38, a boat that would also match very well the conditions. There is out there only a XP, a 44 and not very well sailed. It is on 38th position.


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## PCP

*Vendee globe*

3 movies, the first one for the Art lovers, particularly BD. I guess that Americans call it Comix? Marvel? anyway I am a fan of the European scholl and everybody call it BD around here. Just have a look:






and some images of a sailor that is missed, one of those that had collided with a fishing boat and had to retire. As you can see Kito de Pavan is a good one, one that can go fast


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## PCP

*Sydney Hobart*

A nice video: A Sporting Nation


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## PCP

*Cigale 16*



Telesail said:


> Sorry to go back a few posts on this thread but the discussion on Aluminum boats was fascinating and particularly relevant to me as I am looking to buy something along those lines (perhaps Allure, Alubat or, now I have read the discussion, Boreal or Atlantic). While I am very taken with the whole variable draft thing, I think it is the advantages of Aluminum that I find most compelling. Does anyone have experience of the Alubat Cigale range and how it might compare to any of the other boats mentioned in terms of suitability for cruising?
> 
> Any insight gratefully received before I go touring French yards..........


Sorry, I missed your post. I love the Cigale and Atlantic taken apart (and now that Alliage disappeared) I would chose a Cigale over any other aluminum production boat.

Ok, it has a big disadvantage in what regards draft but I would gladly exchange that by the pleasure at the wheel and the speed. I have been inside the boat and it is just great. Other advantage is price: The boat is made by Alubat, the same builder of OVNI and the Cigale 16 (52ft) and it is considerably less expensive than a Boreal 50 and probably less expensive and with a nicer interior than a Altantic 43.

But that's me that love to go fast, have fun sailing and have no particular pleasure in going to "uncharted" territory and could live with a 2.4m draft. With you it can be a complete different case and for each boat like the Cigale there are made much more boats like the Ovni, Allures or Boreal, meaning that much more sailors gladly exchange speed and a better stability by a bigger flexibility in what regards draft and beaching the boat.






Regarding the Cigale there is a member of this forum that has one and he says the best about the boat. To find it go to the threads about Cigale and you will find his posts.

Another option of a boat that has also a very good sailing performance, a smaller draft and can be beached on 2 legs ( twin keel) is the Iroise 46. Not expensive, with 1,80m of draft and a very good stability. I have already posted about it.






Not made of aluminium but also a French favorite in what regards voyage boats is the Rm 1360, a brand new boat, also fast and with a relatively small draft. The previous boat was a great one and this one is going to be better for sure. The boat is very solid, is made of marine plywood and epoxy with a structurally integrated twin keel. A a test of the smaller boat the also new 1260 and after some videos with the 1300 that is going to be substituted by the 1360:
















Regards

Paulo


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## Telesail

Paulo

Thank you so much for the comprehensive answer. I share your view that it is the sailing experience rather than the exploration of shallow places that matters most. Although I have not been a member for all that long, I have found it well worthwhile to work my way through several hundred of the posts in your thread with e comfort of knowing that I am in no danger of running out reading material any time soon.

I will let you know where my search ends up and why in due course.

Have a great New Year
Tele


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## PCP

*New Allures 39.9*

and continuing talking about voyage boats, Allures announced in the Paris boat show the Allures 39.9 that is going to replace the 40 that was a very successful boat and I bet this one is even more. The design is a knock out

Absolutely beautiful, considering that is much more difficult to design a good looking 40ft boat than a 45, this boat is even more beautiful than the 45.

This is a Berret/Racopeau design and it is not only the boat that looks gorgeous the hull design seems great too as well as the interior. It seems that I am too enthusiastic about this boat, but what can I say, I love the design

The dimensions seem also correct to me. This is a beamy boat to take advantage of hull stability (4.15m) it will go probably well upwind with a centerboard with a draft of 2.75m. That's huge for a 40ft. The boat will have also a good AVS and a good overall stability, since they made the deck in composite to put the weight down and have a good B/D ratio (39%).

The boat is a bit on the heavy side (10 900kg) but on small centerboarders with all the ballast inside a very light boat don't seem a good idea to me so even the weight seems right to me. Even so the boat weights less than the also new Halberg Rassy 412.




































































































































Regards

Paulo


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## hannah2

The new Allures 39.9 is a beautiful boat and well thought out. I like the galley as it is more traditional for sailors going offshore. I loved watching the video and seeing young NA's working along with such dedicated shipwrights doing the work. France has a lot of talented shipwrights who take great pride in their work. 

I hope sailors in N. America who are interested in a new boat will understand that for not much more in cost they can get a great blue water sail boat built in Europe. Some of the boats that Paulo has been showing us are even less expensive than the production boats that N. Americans are use to talking about on forums and much better built. 

Back in 1992 a new Mason 44 was advertised as the best blue water cruiser for under 500,000 US dollars. The Mason price was 499,999 twenty years ago. You can now get a better made, faster boat for about the same price and when you think of inflation over the last twenty years you are getting a great deal compared to the old days. And remember some of the boats Paulo has shown us are a lot less than the prices mentioned above. 

Also to Monsieur Bis, we hope you will come visit us when we do sea trials for our new boat sometime in early summer. And Paulo and his wife we hope to see you in Portugal some time in the summer for a sail and dinner on our Boreal, S.V. RC LOUISE.

Cheers.


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## PCP

*Voiles de St. Tropez 2012*



hannah2 said:


> ... And Paulo and his wife we hope to see you in Portugal some time in the summer for a sail and dinner on our Boreal, S.V. RC LOUISE.
> 
> Cheers.


Thanks, I would like that very much and also to receive you and your wife on our boat (Alma) or in hour house that is near Peniche (a port and marina). The problem is that in the summer I will be cruising in Greece and Turkey

What are your cruising plans for this summer?

Meanwhile since we cannot sail let's just look at some beautiful boats and that's hardly a better place for that than on the Voile the last voile de St Tropez, last summer:


----------



## PCP

*Life 10.0*



jiriki said:


> Has the Life 10.0 been mentioned in this thread?
> 
> life-yachts se/LIFE_yachts/LIFE_10.0. html
> 
> According to yacht. de [ yacht de/yachten_jollen/neue_boote/scharfe-schwedin-von-der-westkueste/a76569. html ] it will cost less than 100k and have more upwind and more downwind sail-area than the larger Pogo 10.50
> 
> I think this will be a very interesting boat
> 
> [Sorry, for the scrambled links, I haven't got enough posts, do be allowed to post urls  ]


Hi, welcome to the thread and thanks for posting. I have seen the boat but I don't really know what to think about it.

I knew already the Life 7.5 that is an interesting sports boat even if I don't understand that sharp transition on the transom. Sure that works well downwind but upwind with anything more than around 17º of heel it will create turbulence and drag.















Regarding the 10.0 that supposedly is a performance cruiser and not a racer I am a bit perplexed.




























The boat seems to have a lot less stability (stiffness) than the Pogo 10.50 that is 600kg heavier, has a lot more beam (3.45 to 3.90m), just less 20cm of draft and seem to have a very similar keel. I cannot find the ballast on of the Life 10.0 but on the drawings there seems not to have there a substantial bulb. It has less stability and carries more sail?  Scary...since the Pogo carries already a lot of sail.

For being fast is not enough to have a lot of sail, it is also necessary to have the power (RM) to carry that sail and it seems to me that the Life 10.0 should be very tricky to sail without a racing spirit not to mention autopilot use.

That boat in a windy day with gusts should be very difficult to sail upwind even with a racing spirit. maybe with a full crew on the rail, but than, it is not properly a cruising boat.

http://www.searchmagazine.se/news/view/2795

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

As I had said, Jean-Pierre is winning big time to the leaders and is going to win even more through the night.

The situation is inverse now: He was the weather advantage and the leaders are trying to negotiate a High Pressure center. With some luck Jean Pierre will be able to evade that and can reduce the distance the distance top the leaders in half. He needed this boost for the moral

At the head of the race they continue real close. This situation with variable winds and very weak winds is the one that get them really tired not sailing at 25K. That is also the worse situation in what regards sleeping not to mention nerves.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

Really bad luck for Bernard Stamm that seems not be able to find a solution for his problems of energy and is still on anchor at Dunedin.

*Stamm ready to leave Dunedin

Seeking to find a safe anchorage and decent weather to make his repairs, keynote being his hydrogenerators, Stamm arrived off Dunedin very early yesterday morning, 26th December.

His team make the point that Stamm's concern about his ability to make electricity has bothered him since the Portuguese coast, within the first few days of the race. The situation became critical to the point that Stamm did not want to cross the Pacific without a power source. Hence he diverted and stopped off on 23rd December in the Auckland Islands. The precisions of repair operations were set, theoretically, by Stamm's boat captain Gautier Levisse

" At the start of the Sables d'Olonne, the hydrogenerators were mounted on little trucks on a track to raise and lower them out of the water. And we supported them with chainplates. Off Portugal one of the chainplates was damaged and so broke the track. And then the second also broke. We tried to remove the U-bolts and fix them firmly with lashings. And that took time for Bernard, but the hydros were still too loose. There was some cavitation - air being drawn in and preventing the propellors working right. The only alternative was cutting the transom."

The level of delicacy and relative precision really left Stamm with no choice but to stop. He halted on the morning of 23rd December in the north of the Aucland Islands. He attacked the first hydrogenerator but a reinforcement of the cut was needed with some lamination and bonding. It was a complicated process. And, Stamm's team report, his materials were limited and increasingly the weather - incessant rain - became an issue especially for trying to sand the material on the transom and getting epoxy to bond and set. In the end the odds really stacked up against him and with a gale arriving he had no choice but to move, especially considering the strong winds could push Cheminées Poujoulat on to the beach, a fate which had befallen Stamm during the 2008-9 race in the Kerguelen Islands. So he set sail for New Zealand's South Island.

Stamm anchored at two different locations off Dunedin, moving last night due to a change in wind, but also allowing him to try one of the repaired hydrogenerators. And since yesterday he has been fixing the second unit.

"He's been trying be protected from wind and waves to work in the best possible conditions, even if everything is relative. In between times, waiting for resins to set he has been taking care of the smaller problems. He should go after daybreak local time, tonight is for us in Europe. " concludes Gautier Levisse.

Bernard's team paid a warm tribute to Sophie Luther who lives locally who has helped with sending images and with local media contacts*





Résumé du 48e jour de course _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*New Elan 400*

Elan released the stability curve and polar of the Elan 400 and I like that boat more and more.



















It is the kind of boat that can mix a very good upwind performance with a very goo downwind one, a very balanced boat and a very stiff one. With 36% of B/D with all the ballast in a bulb at 2.40m and a moderate beam 83,87m) it has to be.










I like specially the hull, not very beamy and with more rocker than many boats in its class mixed with a transom design that will give a good stability on a downwind ride.



















The tankage is also good, with 350L of water and 170L of diesel. I only hope that the interior looks better than it looks on the designs. It is a pity that they had not sacrificed one of the rear cabins to move that head further aft providing a bigger and nicer salon and a dedicated smaller storage space.


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart*

Just a new look at some of the *performance cruisers*, starting by that Sydney 43 GTS, already mentioned, that is sailing ahead of a ker 40, probably the fastest of all *racing* 40fters. Well, it is all in the family since the Sydney is also a Ker designed boat. The Sydney had improved its performance since the last look overtaking 4 boats. He is racing in the 20th position while the Ker 40 comes in 22.

That First 40 fleet is making a hell of a race and improved a lot its overall position. The first one is "wicked" and it has just come from 47th to 29th place. What a race

Ariel jumped from 55 to 32, Two true from 48 to 34 and the others are coming on 37, 38, 46, 58 and 66th place. Truly amazing, specially regarding the boats ahead that are racing in the middle of much bigger boats and overtaking all the time. What a race, what a boat for upwind sailing in nasty weather

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Racing, great boats, professional sailors and audience.*

Talking with Andrews on other thread we were commenting the very poor coverage of a great race, the Sydney-Hobart. With a coverage like that the public audience will not grow, the sponsors will not be interested, great racing boats will not be commercially viable and the race instead of becoming a top professional one will become an amateur event.

Imoca class (open 60) has a big race, the Vendee Globe, that is raced each four years. One race in four years is problematic in what regards making new boats commercially viable. There are three more races, one less important, the Transat Jaques Fabre the much more popular Route du Rhum but where the Open 60 have to compete for attention with the multihulls that normally are faster and the Barcelona world race.

They decided to change things and increase the visibility and spectacularity of the races as a way to increase audiences and curiously they resourced to a British to do that:

*IMOCA 60s: A French Revolution?*

The solo class has signed over all their commercial rights to a company set up by Britain's Sir Keith Mills. Is a revolution ahead?

Today a multimillionaire British businessman came to the Vendée Globe race village to announce a revolution to how the boats are to be raced and marketed. ..

To the French media the Vendée Globe, once every four years, is the story and everything else the boats and skippers do is more or less incidental. But the skippers don't see it this way and, as a class, they have just signed over all the commercial rights to a company set up by Sir Keith Mills (pictured above).

*The deal with his newly established Open Sports Management is a potentially far-reaching sea change for the short-handed ocean racing class, and uniquely the 90 members of the class were unanimous in agreeing to it.*

From next year on, Open Sports Management will take over the marketing and planning of a matrix of events designed to revive the declining class and boost its value to sponsors.

"This need to be a lot more economically viable," says Sir Keith Mills. "What companies are looking for is consistency and payback and *we need to find a way to make ocean racing more accessible*."

..Sir Keith is probably the best placed businessman involved in sailing to take on the transformation and inject a dose of public passion into countries besides France. ..

The high costs have become hard to justify and it's compounded by the haphazard nature of the class calendar. Apart from the Vendée Globe and Barcelona World Race it teeters precariously on shifting sands. 
...
*First of all*, Open Sports Management, based in Switzerland and underwritten initially by *Sir Keith, will make a significant investment to improve camera technology on the boats*.

"The commercialization of selling TV rights is at best haphazard," he tells me. *"We will be investing to get a consistent feed. It's got to be accessible and we've got to make the stories better known to more people in the world and build the audience with some events that are attractive to teams and sponsors."*

The company will not run races itself but will agree with the class about where and when to compete. The solo Vendée Globe and the two-handed Barcelona World Race will stay as the prime long-distance races and two more will be added so that there will be one major event every year of the four-year cycle. 
.... 
He adds that the certainty of a fixed programme will make it easier for an organizer *to negotiate commercial deals with host ports, and cites the success of the Volvo Ocean Race in making these deals pay*.

"We want to have 25 skippers here [at the Vendée Globe] next time with more nationalities, and the only way to do that is to change the economics," he says.

*He says he is looking at markets in Asia and South America in the longer term, and at today's press conference a TV arrangement was announced with a Chinese broadcaster.*

*It's clear that Sir Keith Mill's aims for the class are ambitious. If Open Sports Management is successful in creating an international appetite for short-handed racing it will change the face of this type of racing. It will, in the process, dilute the dominant French culture*.
...
Skippers and sponsors obviously see this deal as essential. ..

Like any club committee or parish council with a lot of strong-minded individuals, IMOCA has more politics than the Vatican. Perhaps it will feel like room temperature to Sir Keith after the white heat of the America's Cup. But still, interesting times ahead.

IMOCA 60s: A French Revolution? | Elaine Bunting's Blog | Yachting World

Well, I had said here already that something like this was necessary to take away racing sailing as a sport from the hands of millionaire playboys to the hands of true professional sailors and I don't mean the ones that crew the boats of the millionaires  but true sailing stars by their own merit that run their own racing machines in a commercially viable way after proving themselves in the lower classes as the best.

Maybe this is the beginning of a true international top championship with all top world sailors competing, kind of a F1 of the seas.

...


----------



## hannah2

All right PCP, I can't agree with you on this one. I think it is great the Vendee is a highly commercial race same with the Volvo and the America's cup type races. But races like the Sydney to Hobart race, the Newport to Bermuda race and a lot of old traditional races need to be left a little more alone from all the big stuff. 

I have a feeling a lot of Ausies want this to remain somewhere in between a race for the rich and a race for the fair dinkum beer drinking sailor. One where even the little guy has a chance. 

I mean if all those Bendy toys are in the race and doing well there may be more Fosters Larger drank than wine at the end of the day. 

Just my 3 cents worth.


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> All right PCP, I can't agree with you on this one. I think it is great the Vendee is a highly commercial race same with the Volvo and the America's cup type races. But races like the Sydney to Hobart race, the Newport to Bermuda race and a lot of old traditional races need to be left a little more alone from all the big stuff.
> 
> I have a feeling a lot of Ausies want this to remain somewhere in between a race for the rich and a race for the fair dinkum beer drinking sailor. One where even the little guy has a chance.
> 
> I mean if all those Bendy toys are in the race and doing well there may be more Fosters Larger drank than wine at the end of the day.
> 
> Just my 3 cents worth.


If the Sydney-Hobart race or the Newport to Bermuda race are not raced by the best sailors and the fastest boats ( and that means professionals) and remains like they are when others are raced by the fastest boats and the best sailors what would happen is that the Sydney-Hobart and the Newport-Bermuda race will lose the status of great races to become provincial amateur races.

My point is that I want that the Sydney to Hobart and the Newport to Bermuda races continue to be major races at international level.

But I see your point regarding amateurs having fun even if most of them are millionaires or at least very rich guys. Even small boats need a considerable crew and most of the guys on top crews are paid to race. Not really professionals but something in middle term. I know some of those guys, that crew for millionaires

A race that is raced at top level by professionals as the main audience event does not mean necessarily that it could not be raced also by amateurs in different classes. As a motorcycle racer I have done many races that counted for the world cup but you can bet that the big media coverage and the public was not there to see me or the hundreds of other amateurs but the 30 professional racers that where way faster and more spectacular.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Fantastic race: The two leaders are so close that can see each other and the third had won in less than two days 300nm and is going to win more. I guess that I am learning something about rooting. Two days ago I said that it seemed to me that the best way was over the high, the two leaders chose to go down and Jean-Pierre, is flying on top of it

To be truth I think that they are too preoccupied in shadowing each other so when one chose to go try to pass under the other followed but i guess they should start worrying about Jean-Pierre. I guess that when they will be out of weak winds Jean-Pierre would be 60nm closer. Two days ago he was at almost 700nm, tomorrow it will be probably at 300. What a race 

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Cartographie





Résumé de la sixième semaine de course _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Gunfleet 43*

Sometimes I post here information about boats that I don't like and this is one of them. The boat seems to have made quite a stir on UK (it is a British boat), it is very expensive and advertised as a bluewater boat. I don't doubt that it is well built but I wonder if Tony Castro could not have come up with a nicer design. I find the boat really ugly.

It seems that it sails well, but it was really necessary to come up with so narrow lateral deck passages or have the sailors so high on the boat and so far away from the gravity center?

But I guess that if many British like the boat you can like it to.

As a new video test arrived to the net, I will post it as the other test and more information.


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Life 10.0*



PCP said:


> The boat seems to have a lot less stability (stiffness) than the Pogo 10.50 that is 600kg heavier, has a lot more beam (3.45 to 3.90m), just less 20cm of draft and seem to have a very similar keel. I cannot find the ballast on of the Life 10.0 but on the drawings there seems not to have there a substantial bulb. It has less stability and carries more sail?  Scary...since the Pogo carries already a lot of sail.
> 
> For being fast is not enough to have a lot of sail, it is also necessary to have the power (RM) to carry that sail and it seems to me that the Life 10.0 should be very tricky to sail without a racing spirit not to mention autopilot use.
> 
> That boat in a windy day with gusts should be very difficult to sail upwind even with a racing spirit. maybe with a full crew on the rail, but than, it is not properly a cruising boat.


Hi Paulo,

The design and specs are not set yet, but they are aiming for around 1300-1400 kg ballast. The boat do have a fair amount of sail area but as I have mentioned before there is not always strong winds in Sweden  The idea is to take the first reef at 8-10 knots of wind, so that light wind performance don´t suffer to much. I guess the Pogo is set up for heavier winds.

The 7.5 hasn´t done to well on the races this year, but it´s a new boat and probably takes some more time to get the best performance out of it. I like the concept of the 10.0, it would be the right size for family cruising, yet small enough to be easy to handle shorthanded.

The reason that they have released some information and drawings in this early stage is that they want input from people before the set the design. This is a good idea, but there are also negative aspects like it won´t feel new when they release the first production boats and the hype might not be there any more. The yard says first boat is not to be expected before spring 2014, I think even that might be optimistic. I would have loved to have the opportunity to sail one before I decide on my next boat, but I think decision will be made before 2014  Still have to get rid of the damn motorboat though 

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Sydney Hobart history*


----------



## PCP

*Re: Life 10.0*



Mr W said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> The design and specs are not set yet, but they are aiming for around 1300-1400 kg ballast. The boat do have a fair amount of sail area but as I have mentioned before there is not always strong winds in Sweden  The idea is to take the first reef at 8-10 knots of wind, so that light wind performance don´t suffer to much. I guess the Pogo is set up for heavier winds.
> 
> ... I like the concept of the 10.0, it would be the right size for family cruising, yet small enough to be easy to handle shorthanded.
> 
> ....
> 
> //Mr W


Yes, the right size but for cruising with the family? A cruiser boat that reefs the sails with 8/10K? do you have not gusting winds there or gusts created by orography?

That is a racing boat for at least a crew of two. on a cruising boat is not realistic to reef with less than 12/14K wind specially now where the norm is having only two reefs. For going fast on lighter winds cruisers use a code 0 or a Geenaker not a huge main.

The smaller boat is interesting and this one can be too but they have to define if it is a racer or a performance cruiser. They can also make two versions, one a racer other a performance cruiser.

Regarding ballast I like boats with a big B/D ratio and with 1300/1400kg that will be the case but then for that ballast to work you need heel and that boat is not made to heel. I guess the boat need a ker type of transom one that allows going fast downwind with a minimum wet surface and allows the boat to have considerable heel before the hull form start to make full effect, I mean like this:



















That is a Sydney 43GS. Do you have seen the performance on the last Hobart? truly amazing!!!!

regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Still together and doing over 20k the leaders are pointed to the Horn where a bad surprise waits them:

*Ice has been monitored well to the north and east of Drake's Passage for much of December.

When the leaders are due to round there are expected to be 15 relatively small icebergs to the south and east of Cape Horn at a radius of about 50 miles.

The ice is reckoned to be drifting away at a rate of around 20 miles per day which, suggests Race Director Denis Horeau, means the problem is most serious for the first boats.
....
" CLS our partners have seen by satellite that there is ice drifting in the south and east of Cape Horn, but of course the problem is that the satellites can only see some of the ice, not all of it. So far we can only see ice by satellite which is at least 100 metres long. And so long as we know that there is ice of 100 metres long approximately then you can be sure that there will be some smaller bergs around. So that is our problem."

"The choice is now with the skippers. We will inform them every day of the situation, what we can see with the satellites and what the drift is expected to be. So we will provide them with a report every day in order that they can understand the situation as well as we can see it."*





Day 50 highlights - Saturday, December 29, 2012 _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## bjung

*Re: New Allures 39.9*



PCP said:


> and continuing talking about voyage boats, Allures announced in the Paris boat show the Allures 39.9 that is going to replace the 40 that was a very successful boat and I bet this one is even more. The design is a knock out
> 
> Absolutely beautiful, considering that is much more difficult to design a good looking 40ft boat than a 45, this boat is even more beautiful than the 45.
> 
> This is a Berret/Racopeau design and it is not only the boat that looks gorgeous the hull design seems great too as well as the interior. It seems that I am too enthusiastic about this boat, but what can I say, I love the design
> 
> The dimensions seem also correct to me. This is a beamy boat to take advantage of hull stability (4.15m) it will go probably well upwind with a centerboard with a draft of 2.75m. That's huge for a 40ft. The boat will have also a good AVS and a good overall stability, since they made the deck in composite to put the weight down and have a good B/D ratio (39%).
> 
> The boat is a bit on the heavy side (10 900kg) but on small centerboarders with all the ballast inside a very light boat don't seem a good idea to me so even the weight seems right to me. Even so the boat weights less than the also new Halberg Rassy 412.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I'll have to agree, nice improvements over the 40, especially getting rid of that linear galley, and going back to a seagoing galley and usable seaberths. By the numbers, she should also be a well behaved but spirited performer. I wonder if the boat will be ready for Duesseldorf?


----------



## bjung

*Re: Atlantic 43*



PCP said:


> Ok, here you have my favorite. I was interested in the boat some years ago but the price was out of budget. The Atlantic 43 costs more than Half a million of Euros. The price has to do with the boat being a lot more complicated than a center-boarder with all the weight inside the boat. It is also a Dutch boat and Dutch makes very good boats (and have a big tradition in aluminum boats) but also very expensive boats.
> 
> Of course I like it strong but also like it fast and in what regards stability this boat is a monster
> 
> The boat, in the version of bulled lifting keel has a B/D ratio superior to the ones of the Boreal or Allures (40% to 37%) and that is with the keel up. But contrary to the other two boats that have the ballast inside, the Atlantic has the ballast on the keel, most of it in a bulb so when the bulb is down at 2.95m it will provide a RM massively superior to the ones of Boreal or Allures as well as an even better AVS.
> 
> That means a very seaworthy boat and a very powerful one, able to maintain a lot of sail up with bad weather, and off course, a very fast one.
> 
> The boat has a weight close to the one of the Boreal and is lighter than the Allures. It has the same beam has a Boreal 44 and also two rudders on its transom.
> 
> On the shipyard they say about the boat:
> 
> *Atlantic 43: Aluminium cruiser with flexible draft between 1,30 till 2,95 m in combination with double rudders. Aluminium sailing yachts .. for the absolute heaviest conditions during your worlds travel. Our yachts are real "All-Weather-Go-Any-Where" cruisers. The Atlantic 43 is designed by our yard together with naval architect Dick Zaal. They are unique in its kind and notable for robust, flowing lines, lifting keel and twin balance rudders. This combination ensures excellent sailing performance, to be compared with fixed keel boats, only with the advantage that the draft of the boat (lifting keel) can be changed. The combination of lifting keel and twin balance rudders makes it also possible to beach the boat, enter shallow waters, to arrive later in tidal harbors or to leave earlier.
> 
> Well considered design plus painstaking selected rigging makes the Atlantic 43 sailor-friendly. An ergonomically designed deck lay-out allowing for all sail handling to be carried out singlehanded. The Atlantic 43 is imbued with comfort, exactly for those moments when required the most: at sea. Real comfort is not defined by built-in contrivances, it is more a question of ergonomics: sitting, working and resting while underway should be comfortable. The custom built interior reflects the discerning taste of the owner and will be tailored to your requirements. Each Atlantic is a sturdy, safe floating home and a reliable investment for the owner. The craftmanship required to achieve the build quality is readily apparent and adds to the pleasure of sailing.*
> 
> Ok, to be fair boats like the Allures or the Boreal, not comparable in righting moment, power or speed have two big advantages: Price, simplicity and easy maintenance.
> 
> If I had the money I would exchange all that disadvantages by the superior stability and speed of the Atlantic 43 but all that being following this thread knows that I like very fast boats and boats that provide a lot of fun to sail.
> 
> For me the Atlantic 43 would fit more my style but I am not saying by any means that it is a better boat than the Boreal or Allures or that it would fit better other style of sailors. I am saying that this is also a great boat and one that can join the other two at the top of the ranking of voyage boats that can go anywhere.
> More than a year ago I had already posted about this boat, here it is what I have said than:


The Atlantic 43 is definetly a purpose built cruiser. I find it interresting, that it is available in two keel configurations. Lifting keel with torpedo bulb and swingkeel, with differrent saloon layouts. 
It is apparent the lifting keel would be more performance oriented, but how about the possibility of damage from running aground. It seems the swingkeel would be more forgiving in that regard. Any thoughts??


----------



## PCP

*Re: Atlantic 43*



bjung said:


> The Atlantic 43 is definetly a purpose built cruiser. I find it interresting, that it is available in two keel configurations. Lifting keel with torpedo bulb and swingkeel, with differrent saloon layouts.
> It is apparent the lifting keel would be more performance oriented, but how about the possibility of damage from running aground. It seems the swingkeel would be more forgiving in that regard. Any thoughts??


Bjung, that is obvious

You have to chose if you want the extra performance and stability or the bigger flexibility of a swing keel in what regards recoil if it hits the bottom.

Anyway on a voyage boat with a big draft on a lifting keel like the Atlantic 43 you can cross the Ocean with the big draft on and when approaching the coast looking for an anchorage you can pull it up. Maybe you have to reef for safety but given the big hull form stability and the huge ballast you can still sail with the bulb up on that boat.

A bigger disadvantage is that a lifting keel on a relatively small boat is not only more expensive as has more implications and limitations on the interior design of the boat. That's why almost all small boats that have ballasted keels with variable draft use swing keels. Normally only boats with 50ft and over use lifting keels. The Atlantic 43 with a lifting keel is a really expensive boat, much more than a Allures 45 for instance and probably more than a Pogo 50 or a Southerly 42.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*sailboats at Dusseldorf boat show*



bjung said:


> I'll have to agree, nice improvements over the 40, especially getting rid of that linear galley, and going back to a seagoing galley and usable seaberths. By the numbers, she should also be a well behaved but spirited performer. I wonder if the boat will be ready for Duesseldorf?


I don't think so. It would be a scandal if a French builder chose Dusseldorf for a premiere instead of the Paris boat show

Here you can find the expositors and some of the boats. Some expositors have a big space but don't say what are the boats that they bring.

This is only for cabin cruisers, the dinghy and race boats are elsewhere:

boot 2013 - Sailing Yachts/Cabin Boats (Sail)

As Premieres at the Boat show they announce:

Bavaria Cruiser 56 - world premiere at boot 2013 -- boot Trade Fair

Gunfleet 58 - cruising yacht world premiere at boot 2013 -- boot Trade Fair

Halberg Rassy 55
http://www.boat-duesseldorf.com/cip...id,38906/lang,2/ticket,g_u_e_s_t/local_lang,2

Italia 13.98 - a new level of luxury yachts - German debut at boot 2013 -- boot Trade Fair

Winner 9.00 - a cruising or racing yacht for ambitious sailors - World debut at boot 2013 -- boot Trade Fair

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Fox 10.20 Capado*

Another nice movie from Adrien and Capucine






QUI SOMMES NOUS? - CAPADO creative boat

CAPADO creative boat

Le Voyage de Capado


----------



## EricKLYC

First of all: happy new year! 
We wish you all fair winds, lots of sunshine and a good health to enjoy it.

Secondly, I owe you a big apology for taking so long before giving you an update on our experiences with the Pogo 12.50. Of course since we have the boat we spend a lot if time sailing, with less left even for the internet. But this is certainly not a good excuse for not following this excellent thread closely. The main reason is a professional career shift to France and although they do build fast boats, their administration makes me think of that heavy trawler with a few square meters of sail: it just doesn't work. So that's what really kept me up .

After almost 3.000 NM, the boat lived up to our expectations. 
We wanted it to be safe, fast in most circumstances, easy to handle, simple to maintain and sufficiently comfortable for longer cruises.

*Safety*
Nothing wrong in that perspective, at least with a good sense of anticipation.

For example if strong winds are expected, the staysail should be rigged ready to hoist before leaving port. The solent is not meant to be roll-reefed, so after the second reef in the main the next step in reducing sail is rolling in the solent completely and setting the staysail, which is a hell of a job on a dancing foredeck.

Although both form and weight stability are quite enormous and the boat is designed to be sailed "under the mast", it gets quite heeled from time to time and then the aftermost, open area behind the mainsail track is unsafe. But the sheltered cockpit itself works very well in all circumstances and with easy circulation as a bonus.

What I like most about the 12.50 is the excellent behavior under sail. It is indeed a cruiser and behaves just like that. When overpowered, you will slowly loose rudder control, giving you plenty of time to react and get the boat back in the rails. We never had a real round-up and the single broach we suffered was when we kept the spinnaker up while the wind was increasing to 25 knots. Also quite easy to recover from, although it was a hard job to get the 155 m2 back into the snuffer. Now we keep a much closer look at the true wind speed .

The stiffness of the sandwich construction is impressive. This is essential because with back swept spreaders but no backstay, the very rigid carbon mast is only kept upright and correctly bent by highly tensioned caps and shrouds. Nothing in this rig ever gives the slightest way and the only method to bend the mast a little more is to put full tension on the inner forestay, which is not countered by backstays.

Also not giving the slightest kick, is the swinging keel. At first it sometimes refused to lower without manual (hydraulic) encouragement, according to Structures (and also the review of Voiles & Voiliers) the very first problem with this concept. They promptly sent an engineer to Belgium to replace the whole system, illustrating the after sales service Structures provides even without dealers. 
No fault was found in the original equipment and six months later I realize this was very probably due to the keel case. This keeps the head of the keel fixed but deeper scratches on this at the first haul out indicate that it was probably only a very thigh fit between keel and case that just needed to wear out. Which it did, with no more problems.

An unsinkable boat means that a lot of space below the berths is filled with foam, but I find it reassuring to know never having to leave the boat unless it's on fire. And I hate removing all those cushions to be able to get to the ship's stores anyway.
Excellent antislip everywhere you may need it plus well dimensioned, thought out and top quality gear, including remote controlled stoppers on the foredeck for the bowsprit and inner forestay. I keep telling myself all this cannot be cheap .

Once set up correctly, the NKE gyropilot with remote control is very efficient. But when sailing with crew, we like to disengage the piston from the steering mechanism to get a little more feedback from the rudders. 
In this prospect the 12.50 is very disappointing compared to the 10.50, which has twin helms fitted directly on the rudderstocks, resulting in sensitive steering even with the twin rudders. The more forward and protected helming position of the 12.50 comes with the price of a (very solid) transmission that takes away most of the rudder feeling.

Given the light weight, at least on paper the 30HP engine is sufficient. But the boat being upright when motoring, the flat and beamy hull drags over an enormous surface of water. No problem on flat and windless waters, 8 knots can be reached. 
But because light weight equals little inertia, the boat doesn't like at all being motored into steep waves. I feel we have insufficient propulsion to eventually get ourselves quickly out of a difficult situation, which I consider unsafe. 
After consultation with Structures we will first try to fit propeller blades with a higher pitch on the original Volvo hub. That's because the max. revs are always easily reached, even in the harshest conditions, suggesting the engine power itself is not to blame. Plan B is fitting a three blade folding propeller, a much more expensive solution.

With the keel up, low weight and double rudders away from the propeller wash, maneuvering requires a learning curve, even with the retractable bow thruster. Sufficient speed is the key issue and if possible we prefer to dock backwards.

*Fast in most circumstances *
The boat is fast, no doubt about that. But carefully calibrating the log resulted in a correction factor of 0.85. This means our fastest surf on the long Atlantic waves when delivering the boat in april was in fact around 18 knots instead of over 21.

This has not been beaten since, but speeds of 13 knots and more are quite easy to achieve in a breeze, even without big following seas and/or the spinnaker. 
Looking at the video Mr. W. posted (# 3335 on page 334) I fully agree that was no 25 or even 20 knots, more around 15. But even this kind of speed is indeed quite thrilling and the video shows very well that this can be done with no stress at all. 
But one should not try to push his/her luck. I fully agree with Paulo that the guys on this video could have got into serious trouble with only the main up. It's a big, heavy, fat headed sail that is very rewarding to trim, but without the shelter of a foresail it will be difficult to reef. It is absolutely impossible to bring the boat head to wind without a foresail, let alone to get it through a tack. And as said, in these conditions the engine might then be of little help.

By the way, picking up an older discussion about mainsail travelers, this kind of sail can only be handled with a very efficient one. Down to a beam reach, the sheet only serves as a downhoal to control the leech and shape of the sail. Power is regulated only, easily and very efficiently with the long, powerful traveler within direct reach of the helmsman. Don't try this with a short traveler on the coachroof, unless you have Paulo at the helm and his athletic son at the piano .

"_Gentlemen do not sail upwind_". We don't like it either but of course sometimes we have to. Let me be clear: sailing the 12.50 close hauled is not rewarding. Certainly not in choppy seas, as we frequently encounter in strong wind against tide conditions in these shallow waters.

With a good sail trim, the boat will point up to 33° of the apparent wind while maintaining a correct speed. You will not need 10 knots of wind to reach 6 knots. But you don't want to try that in choppy seas, because the lack of inertia and the flat bow sections will make the boat slam. Slow and very uncomfortable.

So bearing down and easing the sheets a little is the way to generate sufficient power to get through. This gives very frustrating tacking angles on the chart plotter track, but the much better speed finally results in a quite satisfying VMG. So you end up in port together with most other production yachts of the same size, but after having sailed some more distance.

One time we gave up, against 2 meter but very steep waves and 30 knots of wind. Not because of the boat's performance, it was just the crew that decided this was no fun at all. 
So we turned our back and took a broad reach at an average of 15 knots, even without taking out the two reefs or replacing the staysail with the solent. Big smiles returned on all faces and if it weren't for the trip back, we would probably have gone all the way up to Scandinavia :laugher.
So the main reason why you start really disliking sailing upwind with this boat, is because you know how fast any reaching course would be in the same conditions.

We never sail dead downwind. The mainsail looks horrible against the back swept spreaders, the battens don't like this at all, the asymmetric spinnaker is completely useless even on the 2 meter bowsprit and gibing on broad reaches is not only a lot faster but also much more fun.

*Easy to handle*
All Pogo's are concieved with shorthanded, if not single handed sailing in mind. It works, I do not hesitate to sail solo. Of course you need a reliable autopilot, which the NKE gyropilot is.

The helm is situated forward, which brings the helmsman within the cockpit, protected by the sprayhood and with all lines and winches within reach. No backbreaking efforts leaning over the leeward coamings and trying not end up in the guardrails, but straight up and looking forward in the most sheltered part of the cockpit.

Only no code zero or spinnaker in solo for me, because this means maneuvering on the foredeck without the backup of a cockpit crew. 
What I do not look forward to, is hoisting the main on my own. The doubled halyard already gives you a good physical work-out at the mast, but without a crew taking up the slack it has to be done from the cockpit which is quite hard work. Not because of the track cars, these are almost frictionless and will let the main crash down on the boom in seconds if the halyard is not under control, but solely because of the weight of the big, fat headed sail.
And what I also do not look forward to, is docking the Pogo solo. As said, even with a crew this can be a challenge. But the learning curve is flattening :laugher.

*Easy to maintain*
Both NA and builder of the Pogo's are very experienced sailors. When it comes to practical and efficient solutions, these guys definitely know what they're talking about.
This is also very obvious on the 12.50, where everything is thought and laid out with efficiency, accessibility and ease of maintenance in mind. Although this might be somewhat easier in a boat without inner moulds, let it be clear that this particular aspect has been given much care.

From visible and thus accessible deck fittings to the technical starboard aft "cabin", you don't have to be a contortionist to maintain the boat and there are much less places where moisture and mould can hide. Dyneema lashings instead of shackles are not only lighter (and cheaper) but also much safer (just cut them in an emergency, even under load) and easy to replace. The removable and transparent fuel tank, the easy to clean interior surfaces, the list of practicalities is too long to fit in this already oversized post.

So let me put it this way: in this perspective the Bénéteau Sense concept seems like a nightmare to me. As is the absence of an easy access to the engine oil filter on the 12.50, which made the first replacement of this essential item a real nightmare .

*Sufficiently comfortable*
"_De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum _». The loft style interior of the Pogo is, if not shocking, at least repelling for many. We like it, especially for its brightness and simplicity, but this is a of course only a personal feeling.

Otherwise it has everything a cruiser needs, including a hot shower and a large refrigerator. 
We even have heating, not really a luxury in this northern sailing area. But it lacks air conducts to the main and front cabin, only the aft cabins receive direct heating. Not that difficult to retrofit but this should have be foreseen by concept.

With 4.50 meters max. beam there is no lack of space, for living or for storing, even with all this foam underneath the berths. And again, lockers without doors but with plastic boxes instead look quite shocking at first, but are in fact an uncomplicated, very practical and seaworthy solution. 
Given the fact that weight is a major issue everywhere on any Pogo, the finish is far away from e.g. Hallberg-Rassy but otherwise quite decent.

So the bottom line is, once again: every boat is the result of more or less distinct choices and this always implies compromises one way or the other. But given our personal cruising program and tastes, we are very happy with the 12.50.

I'll try to post some pictures soon. And if I can get hold on them, maybe also a few short video's taken by crewmembers who have the fortune of a digital camera .

Please excuse me for this excessively long post, probably overcompensating my absence on this wonderful thread .

Best regards and many cheers,

Eric


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## PCP

*Pogo 12.50*

Thanks Eric. That was one of the best if not the best post on this thread and that is not only because it confirms what I think about the Pogo

I am really happy that the boat was everything you have hoped for.

The upwind performance with waves was expected and that is the reason that even a 40 Class racer can be beaten on a upwind race like the Hobart by a well sailed First 40, but we also saw what one had made on the last ARC Transat, beating a Swan 80.

My boat can make 6.5K at 27º on the conditions you give up to go upwind at 35º of apparent wind and actually is fun doing that (even if my wife got seasick) but certainly will not make 15K bearing off.

The only thing I think that deserves some thought is that need of changing the front sail when the wind increases. Certainly the guys from Pogo can provide you with a front sail that can work well furled even if at the cost of some performance, at least to be used when you sail solo or with your wife. probably the problem is with the front traveler position. Maybe a fixed point more inside for the lines?

Regarding that lack of efficiency with the engine I have experienced the same with the Opium 39 and the RM 1200, both boats with the large transom and I have saw in boat tests also a smaller motoring speed with the same engine on that type of boats. I guess you are right in what regards to more drag with the boat flat in the water, drag that only disappear when the boat heels slightly.

Again thank you for the excellent post and a great new year to you.

Die Siegeryachten des Jahres 2012 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin






Pogo 12.50 , Chantier Naval Structures from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.

Regards

Paulo


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## opc11

Paulo, thanks for posting the Atlantic again. Interesting boat. Not sure i find it's exterior lines as appealing as the others. When is someone going to produce alluminum hulls at a comparable price to the bigger shipyards? I know.....just dreaming out loud.

Happy New Year to All!


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## EricKLYC

*Re: Pogo 12.50*



PCP said:


> Thanks Eric. That was one of the best if not the best post on this thread and that is not only because it confirms what I think about the Pogo
> 
> I am really happy that the boat was everything you have hoped for.
> 
> The upwind performance with waves was expected and that is the reason that even a 40 Class racer can be beaten on a upwind race like the Hobart by a well sailed First 40, but we also saw what one had made on the last ARC Transat, beating a Swan 80.
> 
> My boat can make 6.5K at 27º on the conditions you give up to go upwind at 35º of apparent wind and actually is fun doing that (even if my wife got seasick) but certainly will not make 15K bearing off.
> 
> The only thing I think that deserves some thought is that need of changing the front sail when the wind increases. Certainly the guys from Pogo can provide you with a front sail that can work well furled even if at the cost of some performance, at least to be used when you sail solo or with your wife. probably the problem is with the front traveler position. Maybe a fixed point more inside for the lines?
> 
> Regarding that lack of efficiency with the engine I have experienced the same with the Opium 39 and the RM 1200, both boats with the large transom and I have saw in boat tests also a smaller motoring speed with the same engine on that type of boats. I guess you are right in what regards to more drag with the boat flat in the water, drag that only disappear when the boat heels slightly.
> 
> Again thank you for the excellent post and a great new year to you.


Thanks a lot, Paulo. Coming from you this is a very precious compliment.

So far we didn't get the opportunity to spar with a Comet and certainly not the stunning 41. But at speed with 27° to the apparent wind we don't stand a chance, probably not even to catch you back jibing on the downrun :laugher. For this we should have bought ourselves a racer and not a fast cruiser.

You're right, a solent that can be partially rolled would be a good solution when encountering unforeseen hard winds with the inner forestay and staysail not rigged beforehand. The Facnor flatdeck roller can certainly take it and I think also the forestay profile is suited.

As you said, apart from another solent this implies a different system to control the sheeting angle. Now we have no rail at all, the clew of the sail is simply controlled by two lines returning to the cockpit. It looks quite "racy" but in fact it is very efficient once you get used to it because the sheeting angle can be set in three dimensions. Without this, especially the ability to bring the clew inward, our tacking angles would even be worse .

But this setup will be in the wrong position with a partially rolled solent so we would then need a rail more forward to cope with different degrees of reefing.

I will certainly discuss this with Structures. Our many previous trips to see the boat being built made us fall in love with Brittany, so we plan to return there for our next holiday and pay the yard a visit.

We somewhat anticipated this problem, certainly when our sons are sailing the boat. You know, dinghy sailors&#8230;  they trim the sail as flat and as open as they can before changing it for the staysail. This is very challenging for the sailcloth and even the best Dacron would probably not survive this kind of treatment very long, that's why we have a solent in carbon reinforced laminate.

Nice sail, but we also have learnt about its drawbacks. This cloth has no stretch at all, which makes "the groove" upwind very narrow for the helmsman. It also means that the clutch (dyneema cored halyard, so also there almost no stretch) takes it all. No problem for the clutch or the halyard core, but the polyester mantle didn't hold the tension and teared twice. Now we keep the halyard on the winch with the clutch open when tensioned.

I'll keep you updated about the results with the higher pitched propeller blades or the three blade replacement. I certainly hope to be able to avoid plan C, which is a stronger engine .

Best regards and wishing you all an excellent start in 2013,

Eric


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## PCP

*Velsheda*

Thank you Eric. I wish you and all that follow this thread great winds, sunny days and a great new year

And a small story. Here is a bit more than 2 AM and I have just returned home after passing the new years eve in a party with some friends. One of them call me and said Paulo, I have here a friend that is also a sailor and present me to a young lad you shining eyes. I asked about his boat and I could not believe his answer: VELSHEDA. Jesus, there are some lucky guys that are actually PAID to sail that beauty. Yes, he feels very lucky to have that privilege too.

They are going to cross to America soon. Some videos of one of the most beautiful sailing boats around: Velsheda


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## PCP

*Advanced 60*

Something specially beautiful fot the first post of 2013, a Felci 60ft on the best Italian tradition. The NA say about the boat:

*The hull of the 60 ft yacht designed for Advanced Yachts is the result of a research into high performance associated with great sailing comfort.

The high stability, the friction-free and soft motion on waves are the main aspects we blent to obtain this entirely innovative hull, able to give a true sport feeling together with a docile and manageable sailing.
The yacht considerable interior volume have been obtained without compromising the agile performance.

The bow entry as well as the aft treatment of the hull are straight and powerful , ready to give you performances and balance at every heel angles; to helm this yacht will always be easy and fun.

The high aspect ratio of the appendage as well as the canoe body of the new A60 are the result of very deep analysis during which our experience connected with the design of many super-performing fast cruisers had been able to mix the main characteristics, necessary for a comfortable and safe blue water navigation, together with the new hydrodynamics trends developed in order to obtain always higher performances.*

Yes, these type of hulls are the one I like more and the boat has not only a high performance keel, a considerable draft and also a good B/D ratio. That means a powerful stiff and stable boat. A great design and I really like any of the two versions. I like even more the one with the sleeker looks but I would not mind to have the other


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And François Gabart, the smiling kid, is the first to pass the Horn and enter the Atlantic, on the last leg of the race. Very few would think the rookie could make it so far on the lead. Yes he is one of the fastest and we all knew that but to win the Vendee is needed much more than to be fast. Normally a lot of experience is required...well, normally, not for the kid

He is also the fastest man to reach the horn in monohull with only 52 days. can he beat the 80 days around the globe, the mythical mark?

Anyway he has to watch out. He can very well do that and even so lose the race. Armel is only 25NM behind

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

*Michel Desjoyeaux, the only skipper to win the Vendée Globe twice, whose company manage Gabart's campaign, commented:
" I exchanged text messages with François, very short messages. He told me the visibility was under two miles, he's sailing ahead of a (cold) front and approaching Cape Horn. So he has his hands full right now."

" It is a very emotional moment, but I'm afraid he doesn't have time to enjoy it because the data collected by CLS shows there's ice all over the area. It's hard to tell exactly what type of ice blocks, growlers and icebergs there is but they definitely need to be out on the deck and visually check. You need to stand next to the helm, even if the autopilot is on, because you can grab the helm if necessary or work on the sails if you need to change the heading of the boat very quickly. Radars aren't enough because they can't detect smaller objects."

They both have to be careful and not sail too close to the coast either."

"I'm so happy for François, he's been so much in control of his boat and his race from the start onwards, he and Armel have led the race since the Southern Ocean. I'm sure they have had their own technical issues, but they managed to solve them and keep enjoying the experience and to have a blast."*





Day 53 Highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_


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## PCP

*Advanced 66*

That Advanced 60 that I have posted recently may seem to beautiful to become true. No, they have already a beautiful 66:


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## bjung

*Stamm DSQ*

Cheminées Poujoulat Disqualified - Vendée Globe 2012-2013
Very sad, it seems Stamm has been DSQ by the race comittee. By the letter of the rules, I guess he did receive assistence, but the circumstances required him to save his vessel, and avoid endangering the research vessel. Should he be DSQ? Thoughts?
I think not...
Remember last time.....
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01206/bernard-stamm_1206429c.jpg


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## PCP

*Re: Stamm DSQ*



bjung said:


> Cheminées Poujoulat Disqualified - Vendée Globe 2012-2013
> Very sad, it seems Stamm has been DSQ by the race comittee. By the letter of the rules, I guess he did receive assistence, but the circumstances required him to save his vessel, and avoid endangering the research vessel. Should he be DSQ? Thoughts?
> I think not...
> Remember last time.....
> http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01206/bernard-stamm_1206429c.jpg


That is really sad but the rules are to be followed.

He had an engine and if he had used it in absolute necessity I don't think he would have been disqualified. He knew he could not be helped without disqualification and did not ask the Russian crew to leave his boat immediately.

Naive from Stamm but if you don't follow the rules in all cases, things can become nasty.

Stamm certainly did not deserved that bad luck, I mean all these problems with hidrogenerators. Next time I bet that all are going to carry more spars.

*Facts found

On 22 12, Bernard Stamm decides to change course toward the Auckland Islands in order to repair the hydro generators.

Until 23 12 at 04h00, Bernard Stamm sails by his own means to Sandy Bay, prepared to anchor.

At 04h53, Bernard Stamm anchors in the bay after having unsealed the engine and the heavy anchor.

At 20h00, Bernard Stamm notices the presence of a Russian scientific ship Professeur Khoromov moored close to his position. Then, within half an hour, Bernard Stamm notices his boat is drifting.

Seeing the boat is drifting toward the ship, Bernard Stamm calls her by VHF. During the chat with the crew, they propose to moor his boat to the ship. Considering this is an emergency situation, Bernard Stamm decides to use the ship as a mooring and informs the crew of his decision by VHF.

Then Bernard Stamm prepares the boat to move, sets the sails and turns on all devices .

Coming back in the cockpit, Bernard Stamm notices that a person from the ship is on board his boat and has begun to recover the anchor.

Bernard Stamm starts the engine and turns on the auto helm, then goes to the bow to recover the anchor.

Bernard Stamm decides not to ask this person to leave the boat "when I saw him on board I did not find any reason that could justify to send him back from the board".

Bernard Stamm comes back to the engine controls and at the helm and the person at the bow throws the line on the Russian boat to make it fast.

Immediately afterwards, the person leaves Cheminées Poujoulat and returns to his RIB.

Once the boat has been correctly moored behind the Professeur Khoromov, Bernard Stamm goes to say hello to the two people in the RIB, and then they offer help. At this time, Bernard Stamm explains clearly the situation, that he is racing, that he is not entitled to any help.

Bernard Stamm considers that this was a case of absolute necessity for which it was needed to act in order to secure the boat and to prevent creating a problem for the ship moored nearby.

Conclusion

Mooring to another boat is a breach of the first sentence of NOR 3.2.

By not asking the person on his boat to leave when he discovered him, Bernard Stamm broke the second sentence of NOR 3.2.

The mooring of Cheminées Poujoulat to the Professeur Khoromov was made with the help of the person on board and the crew of the Professeur Khoromov. This is a breach to the second sentence of NOR 3.2.

Even though not requested, the assistance received from the crew member by Cheminées Poujoulat to secure the Cheminées Poujoulat and to prevent creating problem for the Professeur Khoromov constitutes a breach to NOR 3.2, and the material contact with another boat by mooring to her constitutes a breach to NOR 3.2 and to the principle of NOR 3.

Decision

Cheminées Poujoulat is DSQ from the Vendée Globe under NOR 3.2, fourth sentence and SI 11.2

Date 01 01 2013 at 18h00

The International Jury

Bernard Bonneau (FRA); Ana Sanchez (ESP); Trevor Lewis (GBR); Jack Lloyd (NZL); Georges Priol (FRA)*

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*New York to San Francisco sail record attempt.*

Giovanni Soldini leaved New York leaved New York on a Volvo 70 (Maserati) and seems to have a good head start over the 15 year old monohull record of Yves Parlier. Should not be difficult given the advancements in boat design but I don't think he can beat the absolute sail record from Lionel Lemonchois in a multihull, 5 years ago.






*13225 nautical miles separate New York from San Francisco via Cape Horn, a historic route, widely travelled by clippers (huge and fast sailing ships with three or four masts and square sails used for ocean voyage in the second half of the nineteenth century) that were involved in the gold rush.

In 1848 the discovery of gold deposits in California led the American colonists living on the east coast of the United States to start long journeys towards gold. They had to choose between two possible routes: cross the country by land with the danger of Indian attacks or sail around the South American continent against the waves and winds of Cape Horn.
This mythical cape lies on a long continental shelf where the seabed suddenly falls down from less than 100 metres to over 4,000 metres. This extraordinary difference in depth creates huge waves in the current clash between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Hard conditions for those who travel from west to east, much harder for those who try to do it the other way, challenging the headwinds.

As a consequence of the gold rush, San Francisco Port recorded an amazing increase of the incoming ship traffic: from only 2 boats between April 1847 and April 1848, it received up to 800 ships in 1849, with a total of 91.400 passengers. Between 1850 and 1854 American yards built 160 clippers. Those who managed to get to San Francisco were making the journey in about 200 days.

In 1850, the first real competition between clippers saw Samuel Russel running the route in 109 days. From that time on, the records were gradually recorded. The best result of the time was set in 1854 by Flying Cloud, exceptional vessel from the Boston shipyards, that reached San Francisco in 89 days and 21 hours, a record that stood for more than 130 years. The success of Flying Cloud was due to a well-matched crew: Captain Josiah Perkins Creesy and his wife, Eleanor Creesy, a scholar of ocean currents, meteorology and astronomy.

After several attempts by many boats, the 60-foot Thursday's Child of Warren Luhrs arrived to San Francisco after 80 days and 20 hours in 1989. Few years later, in 1994, Isabelle Autissier on board Ecureuil Poitou took 62 days and 5 hours. Then, in 1998, Yves Parlier on board Aquitaine Innovations has dropped to 57 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes. This is the reference record for Giovanni Soldini and his crew who will try to beat it aboard the VOR70 Maserati, from the end of December 2012.

The overall record in the multihull category belongs to Lionel Lemonchois that made the journey in 43 days and 38 minutes aboard catamaran Gitana 13 in 2008.*

http://maserati.soldini.it/cartografia/?lang=en


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## PCP

*Yves Parlier*

Many that follow this thread only have a first real contact with the Vendee Golde here and some have expressed some surprise by the hero status and popularity that those sail sailors have in France. Well, now things are a lot more technique, the boats are much better and safer but the legendary times are a fresh memory on all the French as on the ones that followed those editions.

Yves Parlier is the sailor that still holds the 15 year old record of the New York San Francisco passage and he made that on what would be now an old Open 60.

He is one of those French legends and I guess that hearing and seeing some histories you guys will understand why. First of all he is old, but not retired. Look at him with Alain Thébault establishing last year a record on the S. Francisco bay with an average of 37.5nm, waiting for a window for the an attempt to the Transpacific record. He is the navigator.






Going fast on a multihull is nothing new to him:






Have patient with this video. It is a German one at least at first but then Yves in bad English is going to tell an incredible story and believe me that is not the only incredible one he has






But the story that beats all the others was is performance on the 2001 Vendee Globe: Deep South at the longitude of New Zealand he lost the mast. Not a reason to give up, at least for him. He makeshifts a jury rig and continues. His provisions were not counting with the slower speed of the boat under jury rig and they finish. Not a reason to give up: he continues drinking rain water, fishing and eating algae. It is comprehensible that he was received as a hero

*MOVIE:*

http://mp4.ha.ina.fr/video/CAB01014095/arrivee-yves-parlier.fr.html

....


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## PCP

*Americas' cup: Oracle guilty of spionage*

*Larry Ellison's America's Cup sailing team has been accused by its Italian competitor of spying, a practice as old as the 161-year-old America's Cup trophy that's the prize on the San Francisco Bay this summer.

Luna Rossa, the Italian team, contends in its formal protest to an international jury of sailing experts that Oracle Team USA sent a spy in an inflatable boat to take pictures of its 72-foot catamaran during training runs last month on the Hauraki Gulf in New Zealand.*

Larry Ellison's Oracle Racing Accused Of Spying To Gain America's Cup Advantage

*The International Jury for the 34th America's Cup said it found Oracle Team USA, the team owned by Oracle Corp. CEO Larry Ellison, guilty of spying on a rival team.
The Italian team, Luna Rossa, accused Oracle's team of being within 200 meters of the Italian boat during a training session last November.
The jury said that as punishment Oracle's team returned 10 photos of the Italian boat, fined the team $15,200 and cut five days off the period in which it is allowed to train with its 72-foot catamaran.*

Larry Ellison?s America?s Cup team found guilty of spying on Italian rival - San Francisco Business Times

*Oracle Team USA have been left off lightly by the International Jury, who have announced their penalty for spying within the 200 metre radius permitted in the Protocol governing the 34th America's Cup. ...

Both Luna Rossa and Emirates Team New Zealand sought far more substantial penalties, with each giving several options - none of which was taken on board by the International Jury. 
*
Sail-World.com : America's Cup: Oracle let off lightly on spying penalty

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN060.pdf


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Those solo racers are not only great sailors but also great human beings. They come all in help of Stamm and if the jury maintains its position in what regards the disqualification of Stamm they will look as the bad guys since the public is also with Stamm. Take a looK:

*Jean le Cam:*

*For me, Bernard acted as a good sailor, he did everything to save his boat and he is penalized!

It is as if a man finds himself at the edge of the cliff, he may fall, there is someone who extends his hand and he should answer him: "Well, no, because it's the rules, so please don't help me" and he falls off the cliff!

I'm desperate. If what happened to Bernard is not a case of force majeure so I do not know what it is. I sent an email to the jury this morning because we cannot make such a decisions.

It is important to realize that in the future we can no longer provide assistance in cases of immediate danger, fearing the disqualification. Should we let our boat be wrecked?*

*Jean Pierre Dick:*

*I just woke up and I heard about Bernard Stamm's disqualification. I find it outrageous; I am shocked by this announcement. The jury's decision seems totally disproportionate to me.

Bernard Stamm has committed an infraction of the rules. I can understand he can be penalized for it, but not like that. Disqualification is really strong. It's unbelievable! It was case of force majeure, Bernard acted as a good sailor to secure his boat.

Our projects require significant involvement, hard work from the sailor, the teams and the sponsors. Bernard is fighting every day against the elements. I think it will be fairer if he remains in the race with a penalty. I want the jury to reconsider its decision.*

*Dominique wavre:*

*I sent an email to Bernard to express my solidarity and my friendship. It really is a great misfortune that falls on him. Well of course I know Bernard, he is a good friend and we've lived very intense moments together. I do not doubt for a second that he acted as a sailor, and did what he needed to secure his boat. I do not want to make another comment, judge the jury or anything else. I just want to say that I am with Bernard.*

*Mike Golding:*

*"The Vendée Globe is the pinnacle of offshore racing, solo and without assistance. To preserve the fundamental ethos of the Vendée Globe we have to live by the sword and die by the sword. Part of the lure of the race is that it is without assistance and so places the ultimate premium on self-reliance.

I think I can see the thinking behind the decision. The rules are the rules and all that. But I think when you know all the story about Bernard and you know the situation he is in now, facing a good chunk of South Pacific to sail across and then icebergs at Cape Horn and the problems he still has, I think it just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel like the right thing. ..&#8230;&#8230; I am very, very sad for Bernard and I hope he can get an appeal together and stay in the race.

Poor Bernard, he'll be devastated. I really empathise with his situation and with almost a duplication of what happened in the last edition, the safety of the boat and those around him must come first.

The race, for the leader, is about being the leader, but for the boats that are further back, including myself, the race is about the atmosphere at the start, the atmosphere at the finish and the amazing adventure you have in between. ..

I think the reception Bernard gets as he goes up the canal in Les Sables d'Olonne, will be, and should be, equal and perhaps greater than the boats around him... I think everyone in this race, and everyone of his followers and the followers of the race will be really upset by the prospect of a seemingly heartless jury, making a decision that perhaps they had to make."*

*Alex Thomson:*

*I wanted to mention what a shame it was to hear of Bernard's disqualification this morning. While I understand the reasons taken into account by the jury I do feel it was quit harsh Given the huge amount of work he had done to get the Hydro working so he could continue in the race, and taking into account what happened to him in 2008 where he lost his boat it sounds as though he did what was necessary for the safety of himself and his boat. I really feel for the guy."*

*Stamm wants to fight on*

*Swiss solo skipper Bernard Stamm has pledged to try and have his case reopened by the five person International Jury.

The skipper of Cheminées Poujoulat needs to give the Jury good reason to do so, by presenting new, additional information beyond that in his original submission, before Thursday morning.

It is the cruellest of blows for the skipper whose third campaign to complete the Vendée Globe appears to have been foreshortened in the Pacific Ocean, even after spending nearly four days in two different locations repairing his hydrogenerators.

Vivid memories of losing his boat in this race four years ago in the Kerguelen Islands in very similar circumstances, trying to anchor in 40kts of wind, will almost certainly have been foremost in his mind during this unfortunate episode.

He confirmed that he will continue on the course to the finish in Les Sables d'Olonne. Skippers and observers have already suggested the very popular Stamm would be accorded a huge welcome if he did.

Stamm, who twice lead this race, sounded despondent but objective when he told Vendée Globe LIVE today: " When I saw my anchor was moving I called on the VHF to warn the other boat that I was getting closer. They are the one who told me I could tie up to them. I was running everywhere on the boat trying switch on everything.

When I came out, there was someone trying to pull up the anchor. I did not even have time to tell him to get off my boat, especially since we were dragging. I finished pulling back up the anchor and he fastened the line to his boat. Any sailor in the world would have done the same thing, and it happened so fast that I did not think what is specified in the rules Maybe the captain of the Professor Khromov can testify but I'm not sure he would bring any new elements."*





Day 54 Highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Week 7 Highlights of the 2012-2013 Vendée Globe _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 42 Vision/Jeanneau 41DD*

These two boats are in direct concurrency on this main market segment. They are similar in the concept, yet different:

The Bavaria weights 9800kg and the Jeanneau 7860kg but probably the Bavaria is way faster because it compensates the superior weight with a lot more sail area. The SA/D for both boats are 19.6 for the Bavaria and 17.2 to the Jeanneau.
Curiously, since the weight of the boat has many times relation with the price, the Bavaria is substantially less expensive : 134 900 to 154 900 euros.

Everybody that sailed the Bavaria, including the testers from Yacht magazine said the boat, like its big sister, the 46, sailed very well, but I don't like the low ballast displacement ratio that is similar to the one used in the Benetau Oceanis line. Regarding the jeanneau they did not disclosed the ballast and I don't mean on the official page but to nobody. Not even on the Jeanneau owners forum you can find it and when that happens it is normally a good sign.

In fact the Jeanneau 409 had a good B/D for the type of boat (and you can find the boat ballast on the net) and had on the basic version (with less sail) 78.9m2 of sail and a lot more (with the same ballast) on the performance version. The 44.1DS has the same weight but only 66.7m2 and such a big difference in sail area on the same hull leads to suppose a smaller RM and therefore a smaller B/D.

Between the two I would chose clearly the 42 Vision, not only is substantially less expensive as with almost more 2 tons it will be a more seaworthy boat with a feel of a bigger boat without being less fast.

But I maintain that cruisers are being mislead with this type of boats. Cruisers tend to assume these boats safer and more seaworthy that boats that looks more sportive and it is just the opposite.

It is the case regarding the Jeanneau 409 and the 411ds (assuming I am right about the ballast and the relation with the sail area) and with the Vision 42 Vision and the Bavaria 40 cruiser that has a significantly bigger B/D ratio with a similar keel and similar draft. These kind of boats offer also more windage and a more narrow and difficult passage from the cockpit to the mast.

Sometimes they are not even better in storage space or interior surface space but only in what regards interior volume. They provide more standing height and more interior light. That can be a enough reason to buy one if the interior of the boat is by far the more used commodity. They give very good liveaboard boats or weekend houses in the marina and even so they provide a decent and in the case of the Bavaria, looking at the SA/D, a good sailing performance.

*MOVIE* from the Yacht magazine test:

Familienzuwachs: Bavaria 42 Vision - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 345*

New test sail from YachtingMonthly.






Jesus this guy talks a lot and we see him a lot and very few footage of the boat sailing.

We have already talked about the 345 that has a modern keel and a good B/D ratio. A stiff boat with a modern hull that probably sail very well. Well, it seems that is the conclusion of the test, also a boat with an Hanse interior, meaning that in what regards that you can find better on the market.

As all this type of mainstream mass production cruisers, a kind of point and shoot boat, meaning easy to sail but not allowing a detailed sail trim, a good sailing one anyway. He says the wheel has a nice feeling and that's a thing I find essential in a sailboat in what regards sailing pleasure.

I agree with the conclusion: A very good family boat for the ones that are starting to sail or for the ones that want a safe and easy small boat with a great stability and are not very fussy about interior design. A pity that interior.






http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/hanse345-s_.swf

...


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1060*

Not a new boat but certainly an interesting one that we had already talked about. Some new videos that show better the boat potential, like this one (twin keel version) going upwind fast with full sail on a force 5/6:






Or this nice one for the ones that like strong colors, a single keel with two rudders version:






or this one (previous model) coming back from Açores with 30/34K wind:






Also the complete video of the Voile and voilers test:

RM 1060 : un baroudeur embourgeoisé

and since we are making a re-visit, some that were already posted:


----------



## PCP

*Gustavsberg boat show and boat design.*

Never heard about that? well you should is a very interesting one by many counts with a big disadvantage regarding the global sail community: its location is very peripheral, on the extreme North of Europe in Sweden.

Regarding those interesting points, some unique, it is the oldest boat show in the world, it is one that is in place for more time. Unlike other fairs that open during a week eventually between two included weekends this one is open only in three weekends (they take work seriously in Sweden). What is interesting is that those weekends are far apart during all winter: Saturday and Sunday, 17-18 November, Saturday and Sunday, January 12 to 13, Saturday and Sunday, February 16 to 17.

From 17 of November to 17 February the boats are in the fair space and you can contact any particular dealer to have a private visit to a boat. Isn't that an incredible idea? and one that could only happen on a country with a very civic population.: Imagine, an all fair just to yourself 

But the interesting points did not finish here, they held during those weekends open and incredibly interesting open discussing forums for sailors over announced topics and the invited participants are just among the best international specialists in each field.

On the first weekend they discussed Sails and Trim on the next one (January 12 to 13) they are going to discuss yacht design and	technology including rigging and on February 16 to 17, Electronics and Accessories.

Can you imagine the quantity of questions about modern design new building technologies and cruising many members of 
this forum would like to make

http://www.scandinaviansailboatshow.se/program/

Take a look at the quality of invited guests for the forum about modern design new building technologies:

From Farr Yacht Design: Britton Ward.

Farr Yacht Design

From Judel & Vroljik : Mattihas Broker

judel-vrolijk.com

From Simonis - Voogd : Maarten Voogd

Simonis | Voogd - New 60' project

From sqyacht design : Stefan Qviberg

Start

Here you have an interesting speech by Stefan Qviberg about yacht design evolution. Pity it is in Sweden but you can follow what he is saying by the the pictures and graphics he shows to illustrate the subjects he is addressing.






Yacht Design Evolution with Stefan Qviberg/ Stefan Almers© STUDIO TRANAN AB from Stefan Almers on Vimeo.


----------



## DougSabbag

Are ANY of the new boat designs you are representing to us Ketch riggs? 

When my wife and I were "shopping" for a replacement of our ketch rigged GulfStar 50, last year, none of the newer boats we looked at were ketches.

So, we ended up buying a Tai Chaio CT 56 ketch.


----------



## PCP

DougSabbag said:


> Are ANY of the new boat designs you are representing to us Ketch riggs? ..


Hi,

To answer shortly yes:











Regards

Paulo


----------



## DougSabbag

PCP said:


> Hi,
> 
> To answer shortly yes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Sorry, I forgot that we DID look at Amels. I even went to Guatemala to look at an especially well priced one. However, overall, we found them to be over priced compared to their spartan aft cabin. We are liveaboards and the aft cabin in an Amel sucks.


----------



## PCP

*NAs talking about boat design videos.*

I tried to found out some videos of the best NA talking about boat design but I found out that they like more designing great boats than talking about them.

One of the few about whom we can found some interesting videos is Juan K. I guess that the dominance of his boats on the last editions of the Volvo Ocean race have something to do with that. He is not talking about his cruising designs but anyway it is interesting information to the ones that like boat design:

VOR 70











Open 60






Americas's cup multihulls:






Another interesting movie is this one by Humphreys yacht design. Very enlighten in what regards to understand how much high technology: program computers and tank testing, is used today for designing better sailboats:






In Europe today almost all mass production boats are not designed by an only NA firm but by a team specialized in several areas. Patrick Roseo is one of the best in what regards interior designs. Of course, he is also a NA.





Patrick Roséo Architecte naval _por Arthur-Kenzo_

and finally the ones that work for the very rich and are specialized in big yachts. Among them Dubois Naval Architects are one of the bigger and best firms:


----------



## Mr W

EricKLYC said:


> First of all: happy new year!
> We wish you ....


Hi Eric,

Thanks for that very informative post! I really appreciate that you mention both the good and less good things about your boat. It seems to be the right boat for you and your family, so congratulations on the choice of boat! 

Kind regards,
Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Life 10.0*



PCP said:


> Yes, the right size but for cruising with the family? A cruiser boat that reefs the sails with 8/10K? do you have not gusting winds there or gusts created by orography?


Hi Paulo,

8/10 knots might be a little early to take in a reef but on the other hand you can sail with one reef as default when you go with the family and use the full main only when racing. We used to do this on our Seaon trimaran while cruising, it´s really no issue. 

Cheers!

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Gustavsberg boat show and boat design.*



PCP said:


> Never heard about that? well you should is a very interesting one by many counts with a big disadvantage regarding the global sail community: its location is very peripheral, on the extreme North of Europe in Sweden.
> 
> ...
> 
> Take a look at the quality of invited guests for the forum about modern design new building technologies:
> 
> From Farr Yacht Design: Britton Ward.
> 
> From Judel & Vroljik : Mattihas Broker
> 
> From Simonis - Voogd : Maarten Voogd
> 
> From sqyacht design : Stefan Qviberg


About the location... I think it´s perfectly located 

I´m thinking about going there next saturday, I won´t be there all day though. Peter Gustafsson, who has the blur.se blog, will be moderator during the discussions with the NAs.

As I´ve mentioned, my brother owns a Stefan Qviberg design, the Arcona 340. Every now and then the son of Stefan crews on my brothers boat and it´s a good opportunity to talk about boat design! 

Mr W


----------



## PCP

DougSabbag said:


> Sorry, I forgot that we DID look at Amels. I even went to Guatemala to look at an especially well priced one. However, overall, we found them to be over priced compared to their spartan aft cabin. We are liveaboards and the aft cabin in an Amel sucks.


Jesus, you seem to be very demanding This is the aft cabin on the smaller Amel:










You can see it here in 360º

visite virtuelle Amel 55

In fact the Amel 55 can come with two aft cabins or just a big one and I would say that the big one is really big.

You are talking about this boat?










Ta Chiao CT 54/56 Review: Perry Pirate Ship - Waves « Jordan Yacht Brokerage

With this Aft cabin?

Virtual Tour of a Ta Chiao CT 54 Luxury Ketch for sale in South Oban, Argyll

That is a really old design. I did not know that they were still making that boat. It is a new or recent one?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Mr W

*Maestro 345*

I´m doing some catching up this evening, been busy with the family all christmas :laugher

I think this boat is new to the thread, the Maestro 345!
































































This boat designed by Kamu Stråhlmann looks really interesting. It´s light weight, it has a deep lifting keel, reasonable sail area and it´s a good size (at least for me!). I wonder how the interior design looks. Something like the Pogo´s would be nice, I think Roseo did a good job on them. Bright, modern looking and light but still comfortable and functional.

Any thoughts?!

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Maestro 345*



Mr W said:


> I think this boat is new to the thread, the Maestro 345!


A little more info:

It´s built out of carbon and epoxy. The keel has a lead bulb with duplex steel fin. Keel weight is 1450kg. This gives RM of 30-3780 kNm (which tells me nothing, please comment Paulo!). Mast, boom and bowsprit is Selden carbon fibre. First boat weighed in at 2680kg w/o rig. Rig weighs 135kg. It´s CE class A. Engine options are electric or diesel.

See the boat on Maestro Boats homepage.

//Mr W


----------



## DougSabbag

PCP said:


> Jesus, you seem to be very demanding This is the aft cabin on the smaller Amel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see it here in 360º
> 
> visite virtuelle Amel 55
> 
> In fact the Amel 55 can come with two aft cabins or just a big one and I would say that the big one is really big.
> 
> You are talking about this boat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ta Chiao CT 54/56 Review: Perry Pirate Ship - Waves « Jordan Yacht Brokerage
> 
> With this Aft cabin?
> 
> Virtual Tour of a Ta Chiao CT 54 Luxury Ketch for sale in South Oban, Argyll
> 
> That is a really old design. I did not know that they were still making that boat. It is a new or recent one?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The Amels we looked at sure didn't have an aft cabin looking like that!!!

They were not NEW. Perhaps that is the difference? As it was the Amels we were looking at were approx. half a Million $s.

Sorry, we are not prepared to afford NEW prices.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Now on the Atlantic the two leaders continue very close. It seemed François could go slightly faster and managed an increasing 40Nm lead over Armel but then Armel changed course and now they are laterally separated by 200Nm.

Armel reduced the difference to 12NM and a big high pressure center is just ahead. Very difficult call. It seems that at first François will have advantage but later it seems better for Armel and maybe for more time.

Anyway, big strategic play at work and maybe an error from François. He knows he can be faster so he would only need to cover Armel moves and then when he is nearer and the way is easy, just go faster for the finish line. He is taken a big risk letting Armel do his play and allowing him to have a big lateral difference. It is not by accident that Armel is called the "Jackal" and that may well finish badly to the smiling kid.

He is betting when it seems to me he had not a need to. Interesting

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

Jean-Pierre is not losing way but not winning also and remains at about 350Nm. Anyway it is amazing how he can be there. The guy went up his mast *5* times already It seems that this time he mananged to solve the problem. Cheers for him. Maybe now he can recover distance over the two leaders even if I think he would not be able to recover 350NM till the finish line.





Cinquième montée victorieuse pour Jean-Pierre Dick _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Day 56 highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Re: Maestro 345*



Mr W said:


> A little more info:
> 
> It´s built out of carbon and epoxy. The keel has a lead bulb with duplex steel fin. Keel weight is 1450kg. This gives RM of 30-3780 kNm (which tells me nothing, please comment Paulo!). Mast, boom and bowsprit is Selden carbon fibre. First boat weighed in at 2680kg w/o rig. Rig weighs 135kg. It´s CE class A. Engine options are electric or diesel.
> 
> See the boat on Maestro Boats homepage.
> 
> //Mr W


That is very simple. That is the boat you were waiting for. Just buy it and invite me for a ride 

I just love that boat and I find quite unexpected to find it in Maestro.

Some 7 or seven years ago I asked them some information about the then new Maestro 40. I liked what I had saw regarding the boat and asked for a stability curve and price. The one that replied to me was the NA and I exchanged some nice emails with him. The stability curve was very good and I was impressed with the boat, a bit to classic for me in the interior, also very expensive and out of budget.






Now, this is a completely different bird, a very modern boat while the other was nice but classic on the line of traditional fast Nordic performance cruisers.

I don't know how this one come up. The designer is Strahlmann yacht design. I like their designs a lot I mean I love the Finngulf yachts, but all their work is about classical very good stuff.

This is not a classical one at all. I have some doubts how the boat can be so light with the mechanism to lift the keel and such a big ballast, but then Maestro has a tradition of very well made boats and Strahlmann yacht design a tradition of designing very solid boats.

I like the beam, I like the hull, I like the transom, I like the cabin design and all the light and outside view it will provide, I like the lifting keel and positively love the B/D (48%) and the draft (2.60m). My friend that boat will not need anybody in the rails and even so it will be MASSIVELY STIFF.

It will heel considerable upwind but it will be solid as a rock and even if 76m2 of sail is a lot for a boat with 3000kg it is well possible that this one will only have to reef at 13 or 14K as most cruisers will having a race boat performance.

But you are warned, this boat has to be expensive. The secret of Pogo is that the way they make the boats, I mean regarding the design criteria, the boats will have a good performance and will not be expensive. This boat will be a lot faster than the Pogo mainly upwind (and more difficult to sail downwind but faster too) but has to be a lot more expensive. That lifting mecanism is more expensive than a swing one and that hull has to be more strong and be heavily reinforced with a grid to take all the strain that huge ballast and big draft will put on the hull.

But I love it, that's for sure. That's the more interesting boat I have seen for some time and I see a lot of boats

Thanks for having posted it.





































Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

Mr W said:


> ...I really appreciate that you mention both the good and less good things about your boat....


Thanks, Mr. W!

I very much agree Interesting Sailboats are only interesting if we also get to know their drawbacks. 
Boats that tick all the boxes are not interesting, probably because they just do not exist .

Kind regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Vendee globe: Epic stories and the first winner.*

The movies are very bad and cannot even be embeded but they are just amaizing:

First story:

Rescue of Philippe Poupon by Loick Peyron, two of the greatest sailors ever.










*Poupon, 35, whom the French consider the fastest sailor alive....In second place on Dec. 28, Poupon was steering a wide arc around the Cape of Good Hope at 47 degrees south latitude.

The wind was 55 knots and the seas 25 feet, he recalled. He was below when he felt the boat roll to port. In an instant, he was over 120 degrees, with his keel in the air and his main and mizzen masts and sails under water.

Afraid he was trapped below, he waited for the keel to lever the boat erect. It didn't happen.

"I was terrified the boat would turn 'turtle' (upside down)," Poupon told race headquarters by radio afterward.

When he saw that the boat was stabilized but capsized, Poupon set to work to save himself and the boat.

First, he turned on two satellite emergency beacons, alerting race headquarters of trouble. Next, he donned a survival suit and pumped his water ballast tanks empty in the hope that the boat, minus the weight of the ballast, would right itself. No luck.

A South African search and rescue aircraft, alerted by race headquarters, spotted Fleury Michon 1,300 nautical miles southwest of Cape Town 23 hours after the emergency beacons were activated.

Three hours later, Loick Peyron, 29, aboard Lada Poch, in third place 130 nautical miles astern of Fleury Michon when the emergency developed, arrived. Peyron found Fleury Michon broadside to heavy seas and 25-knot wind. Poupon was nowhere in sight.

Peyron blew his boat whistle, and the startled Poupon clambered on deck to find his rescuer slowly circling his stricken craft.

Poupon floated a line to Lada Poch, which towed the bow of the capsized vessel into the wind. The two sailors waited, hoping that without the force of the wind and seas acting on its broadside length, the boat would spring back up. Again, it failed to respond.

Poupon decided to lessen the force holding his boat down by cutting away the mizzen mast. This done, the boat came up. Except for shredded sails, everything appeared to be intact, Peyron reported by radio.

Peyron rejoined the race with a 14-hour 30-minute time allowance for going to Poupon's aid. However, as soon as Peyron put a line on Fleury Michon, Poupon was disqualified. The rules allow no outside assistance.

Fleury Michon was not built as a ketch with an aft--or mizzen--mast. It was designed as a sloop with a single mast. Poupon added the mizzen to give himself a spare upon which to set sail if the other mast was lost. It now appears that the water pressure on the added mast and sail kept Fleury Michon from righting itself and forced Poupon to accept assistance.
*

'Roaring 40s' Claim 3 Sailboats : Yachting: Southern Ocean storms reduce field of Globe Challenge around-the-world race. - Los Angeles Times

*THE MOVIES:*

http://www.ina.fr/video/NA00001394290/la-legende-du-vendee-globe.fr.html

http://www.ina.fr/sport/voile/dossi...090331.CAC98001051.non.fr.html#containerVideo

http://www.ina.fr/sport/voile/dossi...0331.3796636001008.non.fr.html#containerVideo

The second one was an even more epic and desperate one, Pete Goss's Rescue of Raphael Dinelli :

In 1996 Pete's boat, the "Open 50" yacht Aqua Quorum, became the first British vessel ever to compete in the Vendee.....

By mid-December the Aqua Quorum had left Europe far behind, and was sailing through the Southern Ocean&#8230; one of the most desolate places in the world.
There are no ships there, no vapor trails overhead&#8230;nothing, for thousands of miles. It's a place justly feared by sailors, due to its unpredictable winds and violent storm systems. On Christmas Day, 1996, Pete was fighting his way through one of those storm systems about 1400 miles off Perth, Australia when he received a Mayday signal, passed on by the Marine Rescue and Control center in Australia.

One of his fellow competitors, Frenchman Raphael Dinelli, was fighting for his life. His boat had been overwhelmed by giant seas and was sinking, deep in the Southern Ocean&#8230;and the Aqua Quorum was the only boat in the area.
But, just to put that "area" into perspective: Raphael was over 160 miles away, through a howling ocean gale, with huge, freezing swells and deteriorating conditions!

Pete knew his chances of fighting his way through such a storm in time to rescue his fellow sailor were slim. But without him, Raphael's chances were zero....

He sent what he knew might be his last fax to his wife to explain what he was about to do, and turned around to attempt the rescue.
Time and again Aqua Quorum was knocked over by the seas. Goss knew he was close to the end of his own endurance...

Pete Goss: Making the right decision | The Mark of a Leader

The story told by Peter:

Each boat has, in addition to its telecommunications equipment, a special button which you press only in a life-threatening situation, and then the race organisers notify the local rescue authorities. So I simply picked up a mayday notification on the screen in my cockpit; I didn't know who was in trouble. Then a little bit later, another emergency message came in to say it was Raphael. I immediately decided to turn round and go for him. There was another competitor only four hours away, but his communications had gone down in a storm, so as far as we knew it was up to me.

Turning round was hazardous. My boat, Aqua Quorum, wasn't built to go for long against the prevailing winds. I was knocked down lots of times, the boat lay over, mast in the water, and stuff like that. But she's a good boat and we plugged away all night and the following day the wind eased. I didn't have any sense of panic, but I did wonder whether Raph- ael would be alive. It's very, very cold in that part of the world, and I knew that, effectively, his clock was ticking away.

It took two days of battling hurricane-force winds before he finally located the life-raft carrying the near-dead Dinelli, who had by that point spent 2 days in a survival suit, waiting for rescue.
Once he had managed to get Raphael on board (no easy feat in a freezing wind, poor visibility and 30-foot waves) there was no time for congratulations.

Pete got him below, into warm clothes and a bunk&#8230;and then went back on deck to keep them both alive.

For several weeks, Pete acted as nurse for Raphael, who was suffering from both exhaustion and hypothermia.

Raphael's English was even spottier than Pete's French, so at first they had a few challenges in communicating. Nevertheless, after 10 days they were firm friends, sharing conversations about everything and anything.

Dinelli, realizing now what was most important to him, used Pete's fax machine to ask his girlfriend to marry him. When she accepted, he asked Pete to be best man at his wedding.

Two weeks after the rescue Pete dropped Raphael off at Hobart, Australia, to continue on the race. They shook hands and vowed to meet for a beer.

The next time Pete saw Raphael, the Frenchman was cheering wildly as Aqua Quorumcrossed the finish line at Les Sables d'Olonne, 126 days and 21 hours after it had first pulled away from its slip. Pete Goss had become the fastest British sailor to sail single-handedly round the world.

Pete Goss: Making the right decision | The Mark of a Leader

There is a book about this story:

Rescue from Beyond the Roaring Forties: The Story of Pete Goss's Rescue of Raphael Dinelli: Amazon.co.uk: Raphael Dinelli: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51Mjg-63cxL






Musto Stories - Pete Goss from Musto Stories on Vimeo.

and since we are looking back just let's remember the first race and the winner,Titouan Lamazou

*MOVIE:*

http://www.ina.fr/sport/voile/dossi...090331.CAC91033341.non.fr.html#containerVideo

and the first edition was not only won by a great sailor (that used to crew with Tabarly) but most of all with an adventurer, an artist and and writer. A truly big human being as the first winner of a great race.

He was nominated in 2003 Unesco artist for the peace after his project Zoé-Zoé, Women of the world.

Femmes du monde » Les ouvrages de Titouan Lamazou

African Great Lakes - ditions en ligne - Titouan Lamazou - ditions en ligne de Titouan Lamazou,

With the French nationality, he was born in Casablanca, Morocco.

For just one time and as a homage to Lamazou I will not post pictures of boats but some of his work. He tried to show to us all that we are all the same even with different looks and cultures, all beautiful to the eyes of good. And to the eyes of men, what way is better to show that than to picture beautiful women all around the world


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## jameswilson29

...which brings us to another reading selection for those who dream of ocean racing, Pete Goss's "Close to the Wind", which de-glamorizes solo ocean racing. After reading his book, you will realize a solo racing campaign is really about finding/obtaining corporate sponsors so you can raise the monumental amounts of capital necessary to fund your race.


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

It is possible that the options taken now, face to this strategic play determine who is going to win this race. The options of the two leaders are so different that it would be almost miraculous that one would not come way better of this than the other.

The weather report only gives 36 hours but even looking on other one that goes till 60 hours I cannot see any way to passing to the West so I guess that soon Armel is going to turn East on a convergence route with François. It seems to me that Armel is trying to escape some head wind at the cost of a longer way.

It may just works but I don't believe it will turn in an advantage of more than 35Nm. If he really is trying a complete different scheme, well it beats the 60 hours that I have of previsions and beats me. If so it may well be already connected with the Doldrum passage but that is way too much for me.

By the time being the one that is winning big time is Jean-Pierre. I was expecting him to win distance with this delicate weather pattern on the leaders but almost 100Nm?  I guess that now that he has not to climb to the mast every other day, he should be racing with another spirit. The weather pattern is better for him so he would continue to win and I am very curious to see how much. For now he has 250Nm to recover, less 100 that he had yesterday.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking





Day 57 highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Week 8 Highlights of the 2012-2013 Vendée Globe _por VendeeGlobeTV_


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## PCP

*Cruising Styles and different pleasures.*

A beautiful movie, a beautiful boat. A voyage to Jan Mayen on a 1936 designed Jack Laurent Giles designed "Vertue Class" yacht.

In what regards cruising, even to faraway places, any boat is better than no boat and if you pick one that is not the most adequate to the job, at least pick one that has class, lots of it and do it in style


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## PCP

*NA Jim Young and hull/keel development*

On another thread I posted this about a surprising boat for the time, the Fiery Cross, the first canting keeler.



PCP said:


> This certainly comes as a surprise:
> 
> *In his book Sensible Cruising Designs, L. Francis Herreshoff promulgated the concept of a slim, canting-keel, 45-foot cruiser as the "ultimate sailing machine." In 1957, Kiwi designer Jim Young built the boat out of kauri wood; with Herreshoff's permission, he made some slight alterations to the design. "He added a foot of beam, fortunately, expanding it from six feet to seven feet," says Gary. "It made her somewhat habitable down below."
> 
> Though Fiery Cross was New Zealand's first canting-keel raceboat, after only a couple of years the boat was given a fixed keel to comply with the racing rules of the time.
> *
> 
> New Zealand Classic | Cruising World
> 
> On "modern" times the concept was reinvented by Pascal Conq that was the one to use it successively in racing boats, I mean canting keels as we know them today. Him and his senior partner Finot (and some other French designers) were the ones that developed a reliable system as we know it today, working on Open60, that were much the testing boats were was made all the extensive testing to make them reliable.
> 
> Canting keels : A 30 years story ! | finot-conq architectes navals
> 
> Looking at Fierry Cross system I have some doubts regarding its reliability but then at the time they do not have the technology to do better than that.
> 
> I agree that the boat is not only a breakthrough in design as it is very modern even if it escapes completely the concept of a planning boat. I am quite sure the boat is still a very good boat upwind.
> 
> It certainly deserves its place on this thread. The boat:
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> some more interesting information on the words of the designer, Jim Young:
> 
> *In L. Frances Herreshoff's book Common Sense of Yacht Design, he advocated the system of canting the keel to windward to get the stability of a beamy boat, but in a narrow hull and without the drag of wide beam.
> 
> I thought that a great idea. It would add greatly to the sensation of sailing, great for cruising or reaching up to Kawau Island and up the northern coast. So I built her with that set-up in mind and you can see in the photograph of the hull being turned over of a hollow where the keel fin was recessed. *
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> *I knew that if you wanted speed then the boat would have to be long. And to keep costs down the hull would have to be narrow, plus having light gear with a light rig and everything else light and inexpensive. And the type of hull itself was the same as Herreschoff had advocated in his book, a double ended hull.
> 
> I had some correspondence with him because the boat he drew was the same length, 45 feet, but had only 6 foot (13.7 x 1.8 m) beam with 6.5 foot (2 m) draught. And I wanted to make this boat 7 foot (2.13 m) beam and so I wrote to him saying I was interested in his ideas but wanted to increase beam and asked him what he thought of that. He was full of enthusiasm and pleased to see someone carry out his ideas."*
> .


Jim Young was one of the greater NA of the XX century and if he had lived in Europe he would have been much more well known.

Forever Young 1

Young Yacht Design

It is very interesting to hear him talk about the evolution of modern boats, from Fiery Cross to his more modern and faster hull forms. Lets hear what he has to say:

*Jim Young: A Contrast in Hull Forms*

In this article Jim examines the transition from the first canting keel boat 'Fiery Cross' through to the modern ultra light displacement boats (ULDB).

Fiery Cross. Not only a New Zealand first but the world's first with a canting keel. Although that distinction hadn't entered my mind. It took another 50 years for the ban on it's use while racing to be relaxed. Fiery Cross was meant firstly for coastal cruising. Fast and with no vices. She never once broached although she broke more than one rudder stock. But that was another learning curve.

Started building in 1945. Launched in 1958. LOA 45ft (13.7m) LWL 41ft (13.5m) Beam 7ft 2in (2.18m) Draft 6ft 4in (1.93m) Disp 4.6 tons SA 550 sq ft (51 sq m) Accommodation 6 berths, galley and toilet. Max disp. hull speed 9 knots. Construction 18mm glued double diagonal kauri on 40 x 22mm stringers on edge. I was building her alone spare time so it was much easier to use short diagonal planking.

The hollow mild steel faired fin had a 2.2 ton lead semi bulb. It was attached to the hull by two massive steel hinges and controlled by a vertical steel tube with a bearing at the deckhead. The tube was joined to a 100mm diameter stainless steel shaft that passed down through a 100mm diameter gland. The shaft was then bent aft to the 22.5 degree Max. When heeled at 22.5 degree and the keel canted to the maximum it was at 45 degrees.

The extra speed generated meant the fin retained it's resistance to leeway even at an angle so there was no need for the additional retractable fins as they do now with keels canted by hydraulics to windward so far that they are close to horizontal when at maximum power. Just like aircraft and birds the faster you go the smaller the wings.

.....

The first YOUNG 11 was Honeywell, built by my brother Alan for Ross Field. Ross had the first Young 88 Paddy Wagon (Ross was then a cop). Roger Land saw the Young 11 as a logical step up from the Young 88 and Honeywell became the plug for the fibreglass moulds. With her beamy, dinghy type lines with flared sides Honeywell could hardly differ more from Fiery Cross.




























*I don't know of any boats with that hull form before 1980 but now they appear the most common hull form. In fact I wrote a piece published in Sea Spray in 1980 suggesting two designs of that hull form as ideal to exploit the spectacular weight savings with added strength in the new light weight structural system*. Unidirectional glass laid over both faces of a strip planked core.

The Young 88 and then radical Rocket 31 were ideal for the new technology which offered great strength with spectacular saving in weight. It is now popularly known as Cedar Core construction. The Y88 plug was built by Greg Elliott and the Rocket 31 was built by Terry Cookson. They were the first yachts to be built using the technology....

Camp Freddie, a Rocket 31 built and sailed by Greg Peck in the UK won every regatta she entered. She was the overall winner of Class One Cowes week in the UK in 1994. In strong winds. Her slightly lower spec. sister Zapata won Class Two. Camp Freddie then went on to win the Round Isle of Wight race against 1800 starters. The only New Zealand design to make such a coupe. Yet the local yachting press didn't even notice!

The concept of the light, dinghy type, high performance keel yacht had never been seen in the Northern Hemisphere. Nor had it been seen in New Zealand before 1980. *I believe it was the astounding performance of Camp Freddie (one UK yachting scribe describing her as looking like a squashed jandal) that inspired the now globally popular production sports yacht. *

...
*Force 11, a Young 11 helmed by Jim's grandson Aaron Young, recently won Division 2 at the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron* 
Sail-World.com : Jim Young: A Contrast in Hull Forms

I think Jim Young is too modest: *"The concept of the light, dinghy type, high performance keel yacht had never been seen in the Northern Hemisphere. Nor had it been seen in New Zealand before 1980. .I believe it.. inspired the now globally popular production sports yacht".*

*Not only production sports yachts but also cruising boats*. Look at this hull designed in the late 70's and compare it with modern production cruisers:










Some of the new ones are even more what he calls "dinghy type" than the rocket design. A truly great designer, one that was incredibly ahead of its time, one that brought to the modern sailboat design a huge contribution and yet a not very well known one. That's quite an injustice!!!

For the ones that have an hard time looking at drawings the real thing is much more revealing. This one that looks a brand new design is just a 25 year old design from him:






and as you can see the performance is a very good one:






It looks like a modern boat till you have a better look to the winches that are not even self tailing

I hope this post contributes a bit for a better knowledge of one of the great NAs ever: Jim Young.He certainly deserves that.

...


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## PCP

*Sailing song*

Hey Guys, have a look at this song


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## PCP

*Bernard Stamm*

How much bad luck can a guy get?

After having lost a huge amount of time on anchor having its generators fully reviewed and repaired, being racing fast and overtaking other boats, he made contact with something that just ripped off his port side hydrogenerator and put the second hydrogenerator out of order. He is going to the Horn to stop again and try to repair the only one he has now. If he can he has to give up since these boats cannot work without electric energy.

Well they can but at a such a slow pace that would not be racing anymore.

*On Sunday morning, around 3.30AM (French time), Bernard Stamm informed his shore crew he had hit an unidentified floating object, which ripped off his port side hydrogenerator. Is second hydrogenerator seems to be out of order too and it is apparently impossible to recharge.

Because of previous energy-related issues, there is not enough fuel stocked on board.

Bernard therefore explained his team he was shutting down all energy-consuming devices to save the little energy he had left for the autopilot. Since then, the Cheminées Poujoulat Sailing Team has not heard from the yacht.
He was 1060 miles away from Cape Horn at 7.30AM (French time).

We are currently studying all available solutions, like finding a sheltered area where Bernard could consider getting fuel as the yacht safety is jeopardized.

Possible shelters seem to be located after the Cape Horn rounding. Weather conditions are tough with changing winds, rough sea and cold temperatures. Ice has also been detected in the area.

Here is what Bernard Stamm needs energy on board for:

- The autopilot, a capital tool when sailing solo

- Water maker (The team has no idea how much water he has left)

- Reception of weather files (the current conditions are difficult) and ice data (ice has been detected in the area)

- The central navigation computer showing wind direction and speed, boat data (speed, heading, position) and maps

- Position lights

- The AIS showing marine traffic

- The radar

- Moving the keel

- The VHF

- Communication

- The mini-lab

Régis Rassouli (Cheminées Poujoulat team communication manager) during the Web TV Live show:
We've been in touch with Bernard and last night, he told us he had to shut down everything because there is very little fuel left on board.

He was a little bit more than 1,000 miles away from the Horn when it happened. The weather is bad, there is ice in the area, it's a very tricky situation. So we're working on several possibilities to find a shelter or get additional fuel. We're checking the weather and it's stressful because we know Bernard has no way to receive weather data any more. The boat and Bernard's safety are clearly jeopardized.*

...


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## PCP

*Sydney Hobart 2012 controversy*

This Sydney Hobart will be remembered not by racing but mostly by controversy. on the news the controversy become bigger than the race

Some pretty unusual things happened this year: One of the main contenders, Ragamuffin Loyal, clearly made a false start but wasn't penalized because the procedure for recalling the boat was not followed by the officials????? and wild thing (ex Skandia) other of the main competitors, was ruled out 3 hours before the start of the race???? allegedly because it had not deliver all paper work related with the boat safety, namely regarding a recent modification.

"'The wording here on this report says quite simply, that the information provided in the assessment undertaken, (as per) *that the modification falls within the minimum scope of the ABS guide*.

'The wording is pretty simple and clear in our opinion, in so far that it falls within the guide. *It doesn't pull up short of saying it is designed in accordance with the guide*. It is all in the words, so I am not quite sure where they are coming from. I am dumbfounded', Wharro added. "

In fact if it is only this is pretty ridiculous because something that is inside the minimum scope is made according with the ABS guide, but it seems that there is more to it and that most of these boats are old and cannot simply qualify inside class A EC category that today is mandatory for offshore races (for boats made recently), furthermore it seems that the alteration was not projected by an NA and that only later one was called to say that what was already made was OK and inside ABS rules.

Anyway all this is quite odd because if a NA certified the boat saying that it was made according with the rules it is his responsibility and the race direction has no power or authority to put that in question. Furthermore no clarification was made by the race direction except to say that the needed documents were not delivered.

Face to the skipper statements regarding all needing documents to have been delivered and taking into consideration that Wild Thing was a main contender, the direction should have made clear what was the problem and what was missing. Not having done so made all this subject suspicious and gave some credibility to the conspiratorial theory that was suggested by Wild Thing skipper, Grant Wharington.

All very odd and ugly

Sail-World.com : Rolex Sydney Hobart 2012

Regarding the race and controversy, some movies:


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## PCP

*Southern wind, big and beautiful yachts.*

This ones will not interest anyone in what regards having one, unless that there is a billionaire following this thread but interests me and I hope some more because they are just beautiful. I rather much prefer to have very rich guys sailing this beauties and given us the pleasure to look at them then to see them on those monstrous and ugly gigantic motorboats, not even mention pollution.

Most of this beauties are made in Italy were it seems that rich men have a better taste and choose in a considerable number sailing Yachts instead of Motor yachts. This shipyard is not an Italian one, it is on South Africa. South Africa producing luxury sailing yachts? Well it makes sense when you discover that the owner is an Italian

The owner, Guglielmo Persico, and yachtsman himself as a great taste and just had some of the best world Architects (Farr, Reichel-Pugh and Nauta) for designing the boats under his specifications that turned out where just what rich man wanted. Not difficult for him, since he is one of them:

*Our aim is to meet the needs of our clients who consider their yachts as vehicles to a better life.

Our vision is to deliver yachts that are designed and built to enjoy sailing and the marine environment to the full.

Our goal is to allow our clients to be able to choose where and when to enjoy their sailing with no compromise on safety or comfort, regardless of destination or weather conditions.

Our desire is to build yachts for fast ocean passages, competitive racing, thrilling exploration and relaxing cruising in remote locations where very few other yachts can venture.

We make a special effort to provide information about our yachts in a rigorous manner, so as to assist our owners through the challenging process of choosing the best compromise between blue water capability, comfort and performance.
..
We want our owners to enjoy the build process and to contribute their ideas so as to produce the semi-custom yacht most suited to their needs.

We strive to accomplish our goals through coherent analysis of our decisions by weighing up the pros and cons of every solution.

We wish to share our philosophy with our clients, as they are the source of inspiration behind its principles.*

Southern Wind Shipyard

Some videos with those beauties:


























and my favorite, the SW110 Thalima. It is so well designed that it looks a lot smaller than it really is. Incredibly elegant and certainly one of the best Farr designs. Simply beautiful.


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## PCP

*Voyage: Around North America*


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## hannah2

Thanks PCP, 

Great stuff, I'd give my left nut to sail that SW110 single handed for an hour or two. Can you feel the power or what just from the videos.

Thanks Again.


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## robelz

Seems Gabart made the better decision, it's 80miles and rising...


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## PCP

*Maxy yachts, a new type.*



hannah2 said:


> Thanks PCP,
> 
> Great stuff, I'd give my left nut to sail that SW110 single handed for an hour or two. Can you feel the power or what just from the videos.
> 
> Thanks Again.


Nice to know that someone besides me really loves that boat

You know, even on this type of yachts is starting the debate in what regards to what is the best hull form. Take a look at the designs and dimensions of the SW 110:





































We can see that it is a narrow hull. Bigger boats can have narrower hulls but even so it is pretty narrow and very elegant. We can see also that it has a modern keel the kind that some insist it is only for racing boats.

Now take a look at this one, slightly smaller 30.48m to 33.60 but with more beam 8.30m to 7.30m and a completely different hull design, a Jean Marie Finot design that will be in the water this year:














































































FC CUBE 100' Superyacht from finot-conq on Vimeo.










The boats have similar designed keels but the one one the Finot design is a lifting one giving a better smaller draft and a better deep draft 5.4m/3.0m to 4.2m. The B/D ratios are 29% for the Finot and 37% for the Farr. In the end those 1,2 more meters on the Farr draft would almost balance the effectiveness of the two ratios and then the Finot has much more hull form stability and also two 9.5T lateral water ballasts.

This would make the Finot a much more powerful and stiff boat and we can see the difference in the sail they carry upwind, 690m2 for the smaller boat and 592m2 for the Farr design. Off course the narrower and bigger boat would have less drag upwind and will need less sail for the same speed and it has also a bigger LWL so I would not be surprised if the Farr would be faster upwind, but downwind Jesus I am very curious the see the speed they can get out of that baby and I would not be surprised if they could go nearer or at 30K. They can carry 1400m2 of sail downwind.

But the main difference and the one that I think it is more important is in the crew that is needed to sail both boats. 3 or 4 on the Finot and a at least the double on the Farr boat.

Depending on the Finot Maxi designed performance, that I think it is going to be smashing on a transat and less so on more traditional races, we are probably going to see more of the type of Maxis appearing: One of the reasons a big sailboat is so expensive is the need to maintain and pay a big crew all year long.

With this one the costs regarding that would be cut in half not to mention the pleasure of having less crew around on the sailboat. The Finot type of Maxi will allow not only less crew but also more passengers , about the double regarding crew/passenger and as these boats are also chartered this can turn out to be a really improvement in what regards boat costs versus boat income.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

robelz said:


> Seems Gabart made the better decision, it's 80miles and rising...


103NM now but even if it is not showing yet I believe Armel is recovering: He has now a better angle and more wind but I don't believe he can recover 50nm and probably it will recover just a bit over half of that.

The only option for Armel now is not following François in what regards the passage of the Doldrums, that are ahead, and hope its choice is better than the one from François. If they come out of it with a 50Nm difference I don't think Armel can pull it off, unless François got in mechanical troubles.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Cartographie





Day 59 highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Moody 41 . Sense 46 . Dufour 36p*

No, it is not a comparative but just three new movies featuring 3 very different and interesting boats. Nice to look at


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## PCP

*Some action with small cats*

The best is having fun sailing, if we can't, well, looking at other guys having fun is better than nothing


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## PCP

*Time out.*

Guys this will be my last day on this thread, at least regarding the way I have been running it. I have to prepare my sailing summer and have other stuff to do. This takes simply too much time.

I will try to reply to all that pose concrete questions but I cannot say how long it will take to reply.

This is not my thread anymore, but your thread. Along the time there were many knowledgeable sailors that have participated. It is all yours I hope you can maintain it with the same interest that justified more than a thousand hits a day.

Best regards to all.

Paulo


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## Faster

Paulo, thank you for what you've done with this and other threads.. Enjoy your cruising but please don't be a stranger.


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## hannah2

Thanks Paulo,

I know how you feel, I've been going non stop trying to outfit the new boat and doing some weather routing for folks I know. 


This is the most worthwhile thread I have ever had the chance to read along with the information on Morgans Cloud site. I wish more sailors would understand how much good info you have supplied and understand that with some effort you can buy a new boat of a quality design for cruising. So many times you can go new and cheaper than rebuilding an old one. It may take a little time to see the saving but well worth it.

Have a great summer in the Med. I would have loved to meet up with you but we will be on the Atlantic coast of Europe this summer enjoying all there is to see and meeting I'm sure many interesting cruisers. We will cross in November so maybe you will be back home by then.

Cheers

Steve And Tracy


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## PCP

*Dufour 500*

I like it, I like it a lot.

A Felci design and a slightly different boat from the other mass production cruisers on this class: Less freeboard, 6 winches in an innovative position and one that will allow a very good control by a solo sailor and a very well nicely designed interior. Regarding the outside, the best looker on this class...and normally boats that look well sail well. If I was on the market for a 50ft cruiser I would certainly check out this one carefully. A very beautiful boat that certainly manages to hide very well the compromises regarding this type of boats.

Possibly the galley could be bigger for living permanently on the boat but then the saloon would not have been as magnificent and big. Anyway its lesser space on the bench is compensated by an unusual number of cabinets.

I guess that design criteria would depend on the utilization it is given to the boat but I bet that they know that this boat, big as it is it will not be for the charter market and that most of the time it will be sailed and lived only by two, and for two the galley is more than enough. it is designed to receive aboard a large number of guests, not for many to live aboard.























































*Take a look at the interior here* (360º):

500 - Grand Large - DUFOUR Yachts

Some bad quality movies:


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## PCP

*Fastnet 1979: a movie*


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## PCP

*PBO boat tests videos on the J108; Dufour 335; Elan 210; Dehler 32; Rustler 33*

Boat tests on interesting sailboats (you can read the conclusions on the magazine that you can download on line):


























Anyway we have already talked here about all of them. Just search for more information


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## PCP

*Some great sailing action: Extreme sailing series*


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## PCP

*Pogo 10.50, a Favorite.*

*With the family:*






*With the guys:*


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## PCP

*An Amel on the trade winds is not properly slow*


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## PCP

*Cruising: kvitsøy, just beautiful*


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## PCP

*Cherub: Kids having fun in Australia*


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## PCP

*Cruising: sailing in Greenland*


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## PCP

*Beneteau Figaro training: What a boat, great sailors...a bit mad*


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## PCP

*Traditional boats: Smacks racing*

Just beautiful






and that's all folks


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## EricKLYC

*Re: Traditional boats: Smacks racing*



PCP said:


> and that's all folks


This is a sad day, Paulo.

I don't think there is one single Interesting Sailboat out there you don't know about. And as soon as you know about it, all of us do thanks to your input on this excellent thread. Whaw.

But there's more. I'm sure many of us have not only dreamed away reading your posts about wonderful boats, but also carefully weighed your thorough analyses and expert opinions before making essential decisions. 
Or have otherwise learned a great deal about naval architecture, boat handling, building quality, esthetics, sails, security, yards, equipment, stability, cruising grounds, financing, comfort, tips & tricks, rigging, racing, meteo, sailors, history, &#8230;, &#8230;

I'm one of them and so now I'm quite sad.

Of course you are absolutely right once again: it's all about priorities and choices, in sailing and in life. Everyone of us must have wondered where you got the energy from to keep on feeding, reviewing and coaching this thread.
And all of us must of course respect your decision to take a step back and create more time for yourself, your family, your boat, your &#8230;

Created by you almost 3 years ago, Interesting Sailboats now counts 365 pages (what's in an number?), ten times more posts, next to 200 "likes" (although these only started about one year ago), most of them written and earned by you.

"Chapeau". 
I suppose this needs no translation.

"De soep wordt nooit zo heet gegeten als ze geschonken wordt". 
This is an old Flemish saying, translated: The soup is never eaten as hot as it is served. 
I certainly hope so, at least for this thread. 
In other words, my little finger tells me we will still hear al lot from you. May be somewhat less frequently, but with the same enthusiasm, expertise and love for sailing you spoiled us with for the last years.

Then may be this day is not that sad after all.

Cheers, Paulo.

Eric


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## HMoll

And the great coverage/updates of the Vendee! Who's better than Paulo?!! 

PCP, thanks for your contribution and leadership in this VERY VALUABLE thread. I may not read my local newspaper every day, but I never miss checking your daily feed. 

Hope you enjoyed your holidays, Happy New Year, and well deserved, safe cruising. 

Fair Winds,

Hans.


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## Mr W

*Re: Time out.*



PCP said:


> Guys this will be my last day on this thread, at least regarding the way I have been running it. I have to prepare my sailing summer and have other stuff to do. This takes simply too much time.
> 
> I will try to reply to all that pose concrete questions but I cannot say how long it will take to reply.
> 
> This is not my thread anymore, but your thread. Along the time there were many knowledgeable sailors that have participated. It is all yours I hope you can maintain it with the same interest that justified more than a thousand hits a day.
> 
> Best regards to all.
> 
> Paulo


I Paulo,

I fully understand that it has taken up a lot of your time 

But please check in every once and a while if you have any new boats that deserves presentation or if you´d like to comment on anything. Keep it simple and it doesn´t have to take up that much time. I have been asking myself how the hell you find time to post everything :laugher

Sail on!

//Mr W


----------



## bjung

*Re: Time out.*



PCP said:


> Guys this will be my last day on this thread, at least regarding the way I have been running it. I have to prepare my sailing summer and have other stuff to do. This takes simply too much time.
> 
> I will try to reply to all that pose concrete questions but I cannot say how long it will take to reply.
> 
> This is not my thread anymore, but your thread. Along the time there were many knowledgeable sailors that have participated. It is all yours I hope you can maintain it with the same interest that justified more than a thousand hits a day.
> 
> Best regards to all.
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,
Now that's bad news for the thread. 
Thanks for all your comprehensive posts, and for bringing attention to otherwise little known yachts ( at least in the US ), and designs. Lots of knowledge and info on this thread.
But everyone here knows how to get you back out of hybernation. Just post a slow boat, maybe even full keel, talk nonsense on stability and RM or trash one of those Comet 41s. Works every time! 
I hope you stick around.
Bernd


----------



## PCP

*On design*

Along this thread I have refused to take sides in what regards the ideal type of hull for a sailing boat and for a good reason: that depends on the sail conditions the boat is mostly used (downwind, upwind, with waves, without waves) and also in what regards the crew number.

A boat can be faster but require a numerous crew to be sailed. That same boat if sailed solo will be much slower than a well designed solo boat that if sailed by a crew would be a lot slower than the first.

But beside the maximization of the boat performance to a given criteria, even if that criteria remains constant, the NA are always learning and improving design. In as little as 10 years we can see big differences.

Let's have a look at it. I don't want to write much because I don't want to make this post long but also because for the ones that can read the hull lines, the differences are obvious.

Nothing better than start with the old AC monohulls. The last year they were raced was 2007 and at that time the sailors were complaining that the boats were too much balanced to upwind sailing and that downwind the boats were just SLOW and that in the overall balance they were not fast sailboats, for top racing boats.

Anyway, upwind they could sail very fast at incredible angles and that's what those hulls were maximized for. We can see that in just 17 years the design improvements are HUGE. Of course these boats heel a lot, have a small hull form stability and the major contribution in what regards the RM generated come from the big ballast on a bulb at the end of a very big draft.


























And to go on, we are looking to the opposite hull shape, the best hull form maximized for downwind sail and most of all designed to be sailed solo, the Open 60. First a 1996 Finot design and then a Juan K 2007/2012 Design. Again a huge difference in a bit more than 10 years.


















The Open 60 shape is not the fastest shape to go fast downwind but the best shape to go SOLO fast downwind. As we can see even if the boat carries a considerable ballast on a canting keel and has water ballasts, hull form has a huge importance here in what regards stability.

With this kind of hull the boat minimizes the more dangerous movement downwind, the lateral roll with provoked by lateral waves. On a narrow hull when the boat is hit laterally (on aft part of the boat) by a wave the boat will heel till that big ballast can generate the force to bring the boat back but then, because the hull has little form stability, the opposite roll induces by the boat RM will not stop at the vertical and will continue to the other side (in a lesser extent).

This movement can become synchronous with the waves and can create a very dangerous situation. It is needed a crew (at the sails) and a good hand at the helm to stop that. It would be very dangerous on a boat with one guy and unthinkable on autopilot.

On the same situation, those fat asses on the Open 60 will damp immediately that movement. The hull form stability is so big that the boat don't need to heel to stop that movement and if it will heel, that opposite movement would be damped by the hull form stability and the boat will not oscillate from side to side like a narrow boat will do.

Many think that these boats are very poor upwind. Well they are worst then narrow boats and there are some technical reasons for that in what regards pointing ability (that I will not discuss here) but they manage to have a bigger waterline (a transversal one) and the wet area is a very slim one (they have a small wetted surface).

Things become much worse for them if they face waves. When the wave passes by the hull it increases a lot the wet surface that is in contact with the water and that's why they have a big wave drag that slows them a lot.

They are really bad upwind (and very uncomfortable)in that situation but in flat water upwind their difference in performance compared with a narrower boat is much smaller and in some cases they can even take advantage of their smaller weight (less ballast needed) to create some surprises.

Some very interesting computer images that show the wet surface on those boats sailing in flat water (Owen Clark Design):














































The Open60 can go solo downwind much faster than an America Cup monohull boat with a full crew because its flatter and beamier hull make is much more easier to plan than an AC cup, that will never manage to go much faster than its hull speed while the Open60 can easily go at two times hull speed&#8230;. and on autopilot.

But the Open60 it is not the best hull shape to go fast downwind with a crew.

A narrower boat, even if a lot more beamier than the AC cup boat, can do better but will be more difficult to control and in many cases impossible to control on autopilot or solo.

A good example of that type of boat is the VOR 70. Also here we can see the huge evolution in hull design in just about 10 years, between a 2001 design from Bruce Farr and the Juan K that won the last edition: Groupama


















Regarding more overall balanced boats, between upwind and downwind sailing, probably one of the best is the Maxi Rambler, also a Juan K design:










And even if bigger boats are proportionally less beamy than smaller boats, we can see the boat is less beamier than an Vor70. But of course, even on this size, if the boat goes against a lot of waves and is mostly sailed upwind, a less beamier boat will do even better and that's why the chronic winner of the Sydney-Hobart race is Wild Oates, a Reichel/Puig design.

Have a look at it. As all know that race is mostly an upwind race with bad weather. On most conditions and probably even on that race if the percentage of upwind sailing is not too big, the Rambler will be faster, but on an edition with contrary winds, the Wild Oates will only be beaten by a more modern designed boat maximized for upwind sailing.










Some will think that this has nothing with the design of cruising sailboats, well they are wrong.

Of course cruising sailboats are designed with different criteria but many of the developments that come from top racing design have an application in the design of cruising boats. You have only to look at the change of hulls on the last 15 years to see that many of those improvements have already made its way to cruising deigns. First to performance cruisers and then to mass production cruisers. After all they are designed by the same NAs.

But remember, except cruising racers that are occasionally raced with a crew, almost all cruising boats are sailed by a very small crew. That's why the major influence come from solo racing boats, not only the Open 60 but the smaller Benetau Figaro and this ones are not only used on downwind races (transat) but more than half the time in mixed wind races and that's why they are more balanced (downwind/upwind) than an Open 60.

If you cannot see any resemblances on these designs, both very ahead of its time, and the cruising boats that were designed after, well, you have a problem in your eyes.

The first Figaro Benetau was a 1990 Finot design and the second and actual design a 2002 Marc Lombard design:



























Very soon we will have a new Benetau Figaro Design and I cannot wait to see it. Probably, like this two, it will be a major influence on the cruising boats to come.


----------



## daviid

*Re: Time out.*



PCP said:


> Guys this will be my last day on this thread, at least regarding the way I have been running it. I have to prepare my sailing summer and have other stuff to do. This takes simply too much time.
> 
> I will try to reply to all that pose concrete questions but I cannot say how long it will take to reply.
> 
> This is not my thread anymore, but your thread. Along the time there were many knowledgeable sailors that have participated. It is all yours I hope you can maintain it with the same interest that justified more than a thousand hits a day.
> 
> Best regards to all.
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

I just checked to see if it was 1 April but we are a way off that.:laugher

Like others, I have found this thread to be absolutely invaluable to my own knowledge in so many ways - different boats, compromises, sails, design, stability, racing, cruising grounds. Someone mentioned that the thread deserves to be published. I absolutely agree.

Before buying my share in a second hand Hanse 350, I felt so well equipped having read this thread very carefully - merci mille fois mon ami
I suspect though that it will be difficult for you to resist albeit in a somewhat less onerous way. I can only imagine the hours that you have devoted to this thread. I look forward to our continued fix of beautiful boats 

Onwards and upwards

David


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> *Gentlemen make your bets please*!
> 
> If the kid that is leading now does not break the boat, I bet on him. A rookie and a new guy on the Open60. He has already made an amazing recovery: Missed the start, had to go around all other boats and pass the line again...well, he overtake them all François is his name:
> 
> Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking


It seems I really should have made a bet, I guess there is somebody accepting bets on this. He was not the favorite at the beginning and the money would have come handy.

Now wit Armel at 260Nm and following the same course, unless he has a technical problem he is going to win this race. And it will be a good thing: He will prove that now there is not needed a huge amount of previous experience on this race to win it (he is a rookie) and therefore young talents will have more chances to find a budget to race the big one, this race.

some impressive images:





Arnaud Boissières bien accroché _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Day 64 highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_

PS. Thank you guys for your nice words. I will continue posting according with my available time. Regards to all - Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> It seems I really should have made a bet, I guess there is somebody accepting bets on this. He was not the favorite at the beginning and the money would have come handy.
> 
> Now wit Armel at 260Nm and following the same course, unless he has a technical problem he is going to win this race. And it will be a good thing: He will prove that now there is not needed a huge amount of previous experience on this race to win it (he is a rookie) and therefore young talents will have more chances to find a budget to race the big one, this race. /QUOTE]
> 
> I also think so Paulo, at least now I do .
> 
> François Gabart made a false start (at a round the world race ?? :hammer) but was certainly not the only one. At least it hasn't stopped him from leading most of the race, together with Armel Le Cleac'h.
> 
> Until a few days ago, when they made different choices for the third time. The first time was in the South Atlantic and the second at the passage of the second "porte de glaces" in the Indian Ocean, but none made a significant difference.
> 
> Having passed cape Horn and the Falklands/Malvinas (Argentina raises this geopolitical issue again ) François Gabart chose to stay East of the direct course looking for better winds. A very successful move that has earned him an advance of 260 NM. This is a real, objective distance since Armel Le Cleac'h is now back on the same longitude, still 2 knots slower than François Gabart and without any short time perspective for better winds.
> 
> Of course the doldrums are awaiting all of them and also the Azores high can still complicate things. But since François Gabart has made not one single mistake yet (apart from the "dinghy style" start :laugher), I agree only technical failure can prevent him anymore from winning his "Everest of the Seas" (although many more have conquered the Everest (or died up there) than finished the Vendée Globe, but this is a different topic).
> Or running into a fishing boat without AIS or any other UFO (Unidentified Floating Object) :gunner.
> 
> So I also think the "rookie" is going to make it to the top of the podium of what I personally consider the most challenging and thrilling sailing race ever.
> 
> I would not have made a single penny out of my own first bet, Paulo. Even if Vincent Riou would not have damaged his hull and especially his outrigger after colliding with a freaked buoy, and even if he would then win the VG, having already participated twice and won once he was a top favorite anyway.
> Now I realize you once again did your homework perfectly well before pointing to François Gabart. And now I also see why he is not really a "rookie".
> 
> The boat: a recent VPLP design, launched 15 months before the race, extensively sailed and improved (21.000 NM!).
> 
> The sponsor: MACIF takes François Gabart seriously and supports him professionally since 2010.
> 
> The team: Mer Agitée, coached by Michel Desjoyeaux ("Mich' Dej", "le professeur" for the frenchies), the only double winner of the VG and now a living legend, at least in France .
> 
> The guy: only 29 years old, French national champion in Optimist at 14, in Moth Europe at 16 and youth world champion in Tornado at 20. At 22 and at 24 he wins the student rank of the Tour de France à la Voile. Then come participations to the Solitaire du Figaro (2nd in 2010) and to transatlantic races, also in open 60's ( 2nd Transat Jacques Fabre in 2009). With actual the open 60' MACIF he was 4th in the Transat Jacques Fabre and won the Transat B to B (Back to Brittany after the Jacques Fabre) in 2011.
> 
> Meanwhile he became a mechanical engineer at the INSA of Lyon. And according to Wikipedia he also routed Kito de Pavant and Sébastien Col during the Transat Jacques Fabre in 2007.
> So apart from sailing and mechanics, he also seems to know quite a lot about weather and wind patterns .
> 
> All this information was readily available before the start of this extraordinary race and now the analysis is of course quite easy. So it really takes a real expert such as Paulo to see the whole picture right from the beginning.
> 
> After the abandon of Vincent Riou, Armel Le Cleac'h was my second bet. Again very safe, because of an equally promising and recent VPLP design, a truthful sponsor and a very experienced team. Plus a guy with also a very impressive sailing record and much more experience, especially in this very particular race.
> 
> But now I fully agree François Gabart will very probably win this VG and become the next French living sailing legend.
> Again an easy bet for me but more importantly a good thing for us, sailors, because it really seems this 29 year old is a guy we will hear a lot more about.
> 
> Watch out for the images from Les Sables-d'Olonne when he will finish this VG ! Plus all the others, who equally deserve our very profound respect.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



EricKLYC said:


> PCP said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... But since François Gabart has made not one single mistake yet (apart from the "dinghy style" start :laugher), I agree only technical failure can prevent him anymore from winning his "Everest of the Seas" (although many more have conquered the Everest (or died up there) than finished the Vendée Globe, but this is a different topic).
> ..
> So I also think the "rookie" is going to make it to the top of the podium of what I personally consider the most challenging and thrilling sailing race ever.
> 
> ...
> Now I realize you once again did your homework perfectly well before pointing to François Gabart. And now I also see why he is not really a "rookie".
> 
> The boat: a recent VPLP design, launched 15 months before the race, extensively sailed and improved (21.000 NM!).
> 
> The sponsor: MACIF takes François Gabart seriously and supports him professionally since 2010.
> 
> The team: Mer Agitée, coached by Michel Desjoyeaux ("Mich' Dej", "le professeur" for the frenchies), the only double winner of the VG and now a living legend, at least in France .
> 
> The guy: only 29 years old, French national champion in Optimist at 14, in Moth Europe at 16 and youth world champion in Tornado at 20. At 22 and at 24 he wins the student rank of the Tour de France à la Voile. Then come participations to the Solitaire du Figaro (2nd in 2010) and to transatlantic races, also in open 60's ( 2nd Transat Jacques Fabre in 2009). With actual the open 60' MACIF he was 4th in the Transat Jacques Fabre and won the Transat B to B (Back to Brittany after the Jacques Fabre) in 2011.
> 
> Meanwhile he became a mechanical engineer at the INSA of Lyon. And according to Wikipedia he also routed Kito de Pavant and Sébastien Col during the Transat Jacques Fabre in 2007.
> So apart from sailing and mechanics, he also seems to know quite a lot about weather and wind patterns .
> 
> All this information was readily available before the start of this extraordinary race and now the analysis is of course quite easy. So it really takes a real expert such as Paulo to see the whole picture right from the beginning.
> 
> After the abandon of Vincent Riou, Armel Le Cleac'h was my second bet. Again very safe, because of an equally promising and recent VPLP design, a truthful sponsor and a very experienced team. Plus a guy with also a very impressive sailing record and much more experience, especially in this very particular race.
> 
> But now I fully agree François Gabart will very probably win this VG and become the next French living sailing legend.
> Again an easy bet for me but more importantly a good thing for us, sailors, because it really seems this 29 year old is a guy we will hear a lot more about.
> 
> Watch out for the images from Les Sables-d'Olonne when he will finish this VG ! Plus all the others, who equally deserve our very profound respect.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
> 
> Eric,
> 
> François Gabart was already for me the best sailor of the younger generation and it was no by accident that on the last Figaro the ony that was able to beat him has ....Armel
> 
> At the beginning of the race I would have just bet on the 3 that are ahead and for that order even if I would give almost a 50% chance of being Armel or Gabart arriving first.
> 
> Armel is older than François but not much and is much younger than the others. Jean-Pierre is a different case it is the only one that has not come as a professional from the beginning, since kid like the others. The guy was a Veterinary and from a healthy family. The other guys that normally have no respect for rich amateurs that are only racing expensive boats because are rich, have a lot of respect for him, a professional one. They call him the Gentleman racer...and he is good. He had bad luck with the mast and rig, had to go 5 times to the top of it and on account of that lose a frontal system that put Armel and François out of reach, being caught in light winds for a lot of time.
> 
> So definitively on this race we have the end of a generation and the born of another one, in what regards winning. I guess next edition we will see a lot of new racers coming from the 40 class racers and Figaro classes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Day 65 highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo
Click to expand...


----------



## PCP

*Discovery 57*

This is one of the boats that is nominated for the 2013 European boat of the year contest in the category of Luxury cruisers. Cannot say it is a favorite of mine and the thing I like most is the galley. That one is one of the best I have seen on a 55/57ft boat. Just great. The interior is a Ken Frievokh design and it is in my opinion a very good one. Nice design everywhere:

Ken Freivokh Design | superyacht stylists architects and interior designers

The hull, cabin and rig are a Ron Holland design and I don't like it very much. A 57ft the boat should look more elegant and the hull design looks 15 year old. The Englishmen are very traditional but even so. I really don't like the wheel's man position, up on the "2th floor", very high and without any protection from the spray or wind. The transom looks just...old.

Ron Holland Design | the ultimate performance yacht designers

Discovery Yachts // The Discovery 57 - the design of a new classic






Video: Why Discovery Yachts are made in Britain - Telegraph

Video: How Discovery Yachts survived the recession - Telegraph


----------



## robelz

It seems the jackal found a much better line than the kid. When will le Cleac'h slow down, too?


----------



## PCP

*Incredible Armel, the Jackal at work!!!*



robelz said:


> It seems the jackal found a much better line than the kid. When will le Cleac'h slow down, too?


That's true. Absolutely incredibly since we cannot find the reason for that huge difference in performance on the weather chart they give it to us.

Armel, on the Doldrums, managed to reduce the difference from *260nm to 80nm* and it seems that it will recover some more since the difference in speed on the last hour is huge. But it seem to me that after that François has a little more pressure than Armel and is going to recover some of the distance. Anyway, with a 80nm difference all things remain open again

Great play from Armel and one that I judged impossible. Great race

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Cartographie





Day 67 highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Safety: man overboard.*

Hey Guys, have a good look at this report and investigation. Very well made and one that can be very useful if someone is on a similar situation. Lots of stupid errors made by what seem to be experienced sailors lead to the death of one of them.

http://www.bsu-bund.de/SharedDocs/p...tion_Report_143_11.pdf?__blob=publicationFile


----------



## bjung

*Re: Safety: man overboard.*



PCP said:


> Hey Guys, have a good look at this report and investigation. Very well made and one that can be very useful if someone is on a similar situation. Lots of stupid errors made by what seem to be experienced sailors lead to the death of one of them.
> 
> http://www.bsu-bund.de/SharedDocs/p...tion_Report_143_11.pdf?__blob=publicationFile


Thanks! This is a very good report of what happened on the water. There has been even more fallout, as the regional body for testing (Pruefungsausschuss Rhein- Ruhr) has been accused of issuing boatinglicenses without instructions and testing, but for cash. .
The head of the testingcommission already stepped down, and all instructors directly involved in this case were dismissed.
When 8 supposedly well trained crew are unable to hoist one man aboard then there is an issue with training.
I am afraid that this event may turn into a nasty problem for Salona, due to the issue with the boarding ladder. Luckily for Salona, this did not happen in the USA.


----------



## Faster

Makes for a resounding case for two things.. a practical, permanently mounted 'swim' ladder, and crotch straps for PFDs - not just for kids.

Some impressive looking credentials on that boat crew and skipper wise, but perhaps given the issue mentioned above that's all it is.. impressive "looking"...


----------



## EricKLYC

Very, very impressive indeed. 

This report opened my eyes and will certainly improve the safety issues on our boat.
Especially regarding the bathing ladder, which we also kept in a locker but will now be permanently and securely fitted, immediatly ready for use.

Kind regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Incredible Armel, the Jackal at work!!!*



PCP said:


> Great play from Armel and one that I judged impossible. Great race


As expected, the ITCZ has regrouped the leaders. 
François Gabart first touched the weak winds and so Armel Le Cleac'h made up quite a lot of miles. But François got better conditions first and is now (cartography at 18.00 UT) again 120 NM ahead and still somewhat faster than Armel.

Without any different strategic choices between them, since for the moment Armel is only following François. 
Being the chaser, Armel has a little advantage considering the options about the next challenge: passing the Azores high. Little, because of the short distance between him and the leader, at least on a meteorological scale.

But since François didn't make any single mistake yet (except his early start :hammer), I don't think even "the jackal"will be able to keep "the rookie" from arriving first at les Sables d'Olonne.

Again, a very easy bet for me but an extraordinary performance for all the skippers.

Great race indeed!


----------



## tschmidty

Thanks for that report Paulo, it really goes to show how a fairly routine cruise can turn into disaster so quickly. Note the time from when he fell to his recovery was only 15 minutes until he apparently was minimally responsive at the stern of the boat. Water temp was extremely cold (46-50F). In retrospect, there were obviously actions that could have been taken, but nothing I couldn't see a lot of people doing. So be careful out there...


----------



## Melrna

Paulo this is a great safety report and should have it own thread, so we can vet out and learn from this tragic accident. Maybe the Mods can cut it out and move it into its own thread. So much to discuss.


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Hi Guys,

Back from Dusseldorf. I will try to reply to your posts but first some news on the Vendee Globe:

The king of bad luck: Jean Pierre-Dick that after having to climb an incredible number of times to the top of the mast (6?) has lost the keel. Well, not a reason to give up, the man keeps sailing with reefed sails and a lot of care, carefully managing the water ballasts. Even so 10.8K 24 hour average on a boat without a keel:* CHAPEAU*

I love that guy, it is one of my favorite sailors and I wish him good luck. He really needs it to finish the race. He is coming from Brazil to France sailing an Open 60 dinghy style. That means lots of time at the rudder because any error from the autopilot could mean an instant capsize.

the story:

*Jean-Pierre Dick (FRA, Virbac Paprec 3):

Yesterday night before 11PM I heard a huge noise. It's was the head of the keel. It broke. I immediately went out to pull down the sails because the conditions were hard and I had to prevent my boat from capsizing.

I'm still in the race. My sails are still here. I had Marc Guillemot on the phone, he gave my some advices. I have my ballasts full of water. The boat is still going on. So I'm going north at least to the Azores.

Today:
I have good sensations about the boat. The nights are getting longer, about 12 hours, which at least gives me an opportunity to get some rest. I had a couple of heavy showers last night, but no problem, really. I'm working hard to keep Virbac Paprec 3 balanced and stable, using the ballasts and tacting the bags and the sails. I'm studying the various possibilities at the navigation table in order to guarantee my safety, and the boat's.*

Just to remember, Marc had just managed to pull a similar trick last year. He broke the keel about the same place where Jean-Pierre lost his and managed to bring the boat back to finish the race.

Another conclusion that becomes clear is that the head of the keel needs to be substituted each 2 years or so. I guess this is the same that happened to mark and the answer is probably the same: metal fatigue due to the huge and constant forces that are subjected to that place. Theoretically there was a big safety margin but nobody knew what would be the metal fatigue. Well know they do





Jean-Pierre Dick fait l'état des lieux après la... _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Day 74 highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## EricKLYC

I certainly hope you enjoyed Düsseldorf, Paulo!
And that we may read a lot about your impressions .

I also feel for Jean-Pierre Dick. Now he will not be able to defend his third place against Alex Thomson anymore. Or maybe even finish this Vendée Globe, if the North Atlantic depressions are too strong to make it to Les Sables without his keel. 
This is indeed pure dinghy sailing, but on a IMOCA 60 footer . With only displaceable weight (water ballast & load distribution, the so-called “matossage”) and the form stability –luckily quite huge on these boats- to keep such a mean racing machine upright and sailing.

This raises once again the question: must fundamental safety issues such as keel and rig design be assessed by more regulation? In the last issue of Yachting World Merfyn Owen, designer of three Vendée boats, states the European NA were already in favor of one-design keels and rigs. But organisers and skippers would not hear about it…

Anyway, except for technical failure or collision (especially the latter becoming an important risk in this last stage to the finish) the podium of the Vendée Globe is known: 1st François Gabart, 2nd Armel Le Cleac’h and 3rd Alex Thomson. 
No way Gabart is going to give away 100 NM, also because he is the first to hit the “depression train” straight to the finish.
In my opinion, also Alex deserves this podium. His Hugo Boss is an older and arguably slower design. And this time he didn’t destroy it (so far) .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*2013 European boat of the year I*

As most here already now, this contest is a bit different than all other in a sense that the boats are actively tested not by one or two testers but by dozens of testers from all big sailing magazines of Europe so the results really are more meaningful regarding the best the market has to offer, at least in the opinion of testers that have sailing experience on previously tested hundreds of boats and know very well the boats on the market.

Well, I am just saying that because they have chosen the boats I would probably chose

On the hottest category, family cruisers the winner was a good surprise, the RM 1260. I had said about its possibilities on a previous post about the boat and the contest:

*"The RM 1260 is an improvement of the RM 1200 and as the 1200 was already a great boat, the 1260 is even better. But it is only an improvement not a breakthrough and is a more specialized boat, not pointed to the main crown but to the cruiser that voyages. Maybe because the boat was there but was not well known on the other markets out of France it stands some chances but I don't thing it stands so much chances has the Bavaria."*

Well, I was wrong. It seems that the testers were really very impressed with the sail potential and Family/voyage potential of the RM 1260. Impressive, a boat that some years back was just a cult boat among the French and a boat that is not a main market boat winning the Boat of the year contest on the Family class. RM deserved that title not only for this boat but for all the other great boats that they produce, boats for sailors, boats for cruising with the family, definitively not marina boats. I visited the boat on the saloon. A bit more modern than the previous model but not much different. I had the pleasure of sailing the previous model and I can say that choice is more than fair.






Regarding the winner on the Luxury cruiser class, a big surprise, the IT 13.98. I mean it was the boat that I liked more by far but I would not know how well the boat would sail and had not seen the interior quality.

On a previous post I had said about the Italia 13.98 and the contest:

*The Italia 13.98 brings something new, a classic looking boat with top performance sailing so it may well create a surprise here but I really don't know how the different members of the jury are going to value that.*

Now, I know decidedly those guys appreciated the superb sailing performance of the boat and now that I have been inside I can say, the beautiful interior, great finish quality and cruising fit interior. Great choice. It is not even much expensive for the quality (around 400 000 Euros) and if I had the money I would be very tempted with this one. Gorgeous cruiser, great sailing pleasure for sure and great comfort on the interior. What a boat






European performance cruiser of the year is the Dufour 36P. Well this one did not seem the most exciting boat on contest. It looked heavy to me, the interior was not bad but also nothing outstanding. I have said previously about this boat and the contest:

The Dufour 36 performance is a nice boat even if I find it a bit heavy. I don't think that it has much chances, or maybe the boat sails better than what I suspect and in that case it can be a contender. It has a nice interior but not really anything new or very exiting.

Well I bet I was wrong about the sailing qualities and I hope to have the possibility to see that personally in some months when Zdamen receives his new boat.

By the way Zdamen, congratulations about your choice. So many experienced sailors could not fail in what regards choosing a boat and given the competition (Xp-50, GS 39, Sly 38, MC 34) the boat has to sail very well

I wait with anticipation that sailing with Zdamen






I will talk about the other 2 categories when I have the time and also about boat disappointments. The two bigger: The Halberg-Rassy 412 and the Hanse 415.

,,,


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Thanks! This is a very good report of what happened on the water. There has been even more fallout, as the regional body for testing (Pruefungsausschuss Rhein- Ruhr) has been accused of issuing boating licenses without instructions and testing, but for cash. .
> The head of the testing commission already stepped down, and all instructors directly involved in this case were dismissed.
> When 8 supposedly well trained crew are unable to hoist one man aboard then there is an issue with training.
> I am afraid that this event may turn into a nasty problem for Salona, due to the issue with the boarding ladder. Luckily for Salona, this did not happen in the USA.


They were obviously not well trained and that seems to have been a total chaos on that operation. Regarding the report there seems to be several things missing:

Wind and sea state and most of all the time table of all operation.

Regarding turning a nasty problem to Salona I don't think so. The legislation permits the use of removable stairs (many other boats use them) and the ones responsible to store it on a difficult place to access is the owner/crew. I know the fixation system and it is a very safe one providing it is maintained in an adequate maintenance condition. Basically you insert the stair on a rail, push it to the end and turn a thumb wheel to get it properly fixed. For what I have understood one of those thumb wheels was not greased and did not turn, making impossible to insert one of the sides in the rail.

I guess that what this accident is going to change is the European legislation making mandatory a fixed stair accessible/deployed from the water and that's a justifiable measure in what regards safety.



Faster said:


> Makes for a resounding case for two things.. a practical, permanently mounted 'swim' ladder, and crotch straps for PFDs - not just for kids.
> Some impressive looking credentials on that boat crew and skipper wise, but perhaps given the issue mentioned above that's all it is.. impressive "looking"...


Regarding credentials I guess Bjung got it right. Unfortunately some of the most basic ones (and it seems most of them were) means just nothing except money ("regional body for testing (Pruefungsausschuss Rhein- Ruhr) has been accused of issuing boating licenses without instructions and testing, but for cash") and the instructor (skipper) did seem not to have the training or competence to do his job.

A fixed stair is a lot better than one that has to be put in place but it is obvious that they did not even tried to assemble the stair before going out on an unknown boat. If they had done that they would have found that a thumb wheel was stuck and would have oiled it and unstuck it. I can assure you that if that stair was in an accessible place and without a lot of stuff over it (I don't know if the place where it was stored was easily accessible ) probably I could have mounted it in less than 15 seconds and surely in not more than 30 seconds.



tschmidty said:


> .. Note the time from when he fell to his recovery was only 15 minutes until he apparently was minimally responsive at the stern of the boat. Water temp was extremely cold (46-50F). In retrospect, there were obviously actions that could have been taken, but nothing I couldn't see a lot of people doing. So be careful out there...


I don't know if they could have pulled him out if the boat had a fixed stair. For what I understood the guy on the water was not hurt but when it reached the stair they say he was already in shock and unable to climb it.

The question that begged to be answered is how much time they took to drive the man to the stair. The guy was connected to the boat by a line and they tried first to get him out on the side of the boat and that is pretty stupid.

How much time they have lost with that nonsense? How much time takes a non blessed man to a shock state in 46/50F water? They should have been able to mount the removable stair in less than a minute and drive by the line the man on the water to the stair in another minute. All recovering operation should have lasted no more than 3 minutes .

The main reason I have posted this here was because I was shocked by how this accident was possible. Panic and lack of training can have dramatic consequences and block rational thought creating chaos.



EricKLYC said:


> Very, very impressive indeed.
> 
> This report opened my eyes and will certainly improve the safety issues on our boat.
> Especially regarding the bathing ladder, which we also kept in a locker but will now be permanently and securely fitted, immediatly ready for use.
> Eric


Yes, like yours and the Salona mine has also a removable ladder and yes I am also going to change the locker where I keep it to have it more ready.

Besides that, because I am typically absent minded and I sail solo sometimes, the first thing I have done in my boat was to rig a small rope on the transom that is inside the boat and can be reached from the water. The rope has two loops for the feet, works as a makeshift ladder and allow me to get back on board without the removable ladder in place(I have tried it).

You know I like to wake up in the morning with a jump to the water and a swim and I bet that someday I will forget to put the dam ladder in place My previous boat had a fixed ladder.



Melrna said:


> Paulo this is a great safety report and should have it own thread, so we can vet out and learn from this tragic accident. Maybe the Mods can cut it out and move it into its own thread. So much to discuss.


Melrna, please feel free to post it on another thread if you think it will be useful, this or any other thing I post here.

Best regards to all.

Paulo


----------



## zdamen

*Re: 2013 European boat of the year I*



PCP said:


> Well I bet I was wrong about the sailing qualities and I hope to have the possibility to see that personally in some months when Zdamen receives his new boat.
> 
> By the way Zdamen, congratulations about your choice. So many experienced sailors could not fail in what regards choosing a boat and given the competition (Xp-50, GS 39, Sly 38, MC 34) the boat has to sail very well
> 
> I wait with anticipation that sailing with Zdamen
> 
> ,,,


Hi Paulo,

Thanks, and as it was promised, as soon as it arrives you'll be on top of the list for a tryout.

Just as curiosity, there's one in Belém right now, that's going to cross the atlantic as it's headed for Brasil.

The owners tried it out last saturday(!)  and as it seems it didn't went under... 50knts registered aboard!!!

Wasn't my first choice but let's hope it was the right one.

Cheers all!


----------



## bjung

Paulo,
Did you get a chance to check out the new Dehler 38?




I would be interrested to find out , if the interior finish quality is what we are used to from Dehler, or if the move to Greifswald negatively affected this?!
What I can see in the pics on their website and the above video looks nice, and well thought out. One issue of concern is the lack of non skid on the cabintop.


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 38*



bjung said:


> Paulo,
> Did you get a chance to check out the new Dehler 38?
> YouTube
> I would be interrested to find out , if the interior finish quality is what we are used to from Dehler, or if the move to Greifswald negatively affected this?!
> What I can see in the pics on their website and the above video looks nice, and well thought out. One issue of concern is the lack of non skid on the cabintop.


Hi,

I saw only your PM when I arrived from Dusseldorf so no pictures.....but you will be glad to know that this was one of the surprises and a good one. Contrary to the 41 (that was also there and that I visited too) the interior of the boat is very good. Not that the 41 has bad quality on the finish but the difference in design quality is huge.

A very beautiful boat with good storage space and a very clever and innovative head. In fact they managed to solve on the two cabin versions the access to the second cabin in a brilliant way and it works visually with the advantage of separating the toilet in two parts, one with an isolated head and shower, the other with the toilet part. Very clever and very functional.

So you can buy this one and you will not regret it. The boat is very stiff with a very good B/D ratio (32%) taking into consideration the very efficient keel. The rigging is well done (as in all Dehlers). You have only to chose between the one they call competition (C) and the standard version. But don't let the words mislead you, competition my ass, what you really have is a cheaper version and a more expensive one.

The main difference has to do with an epoxy cored hull with a synthetic core versus a balsa cored boat with regular resins. Probably also a wire rig versus a rod one and I don't know if the standard one has lead as ballast.

I am assuming that the differences are the same as between the two versions of the 41. Regarding that one what I have found out is that the low spec version is not expensive but the high spec is. To give you an idea the low spec was slightly more expensive than the high spec of the Salona 41 that had similar spec regarding the Dehler 41 C (high spec).

If you are in a market for a 38 I would say that you have a lot of good boats to choose: the CG 39, the Solaris 37 (I saw them again on the fair and they were as beautiful as I remember them) and the Salona 38.

If you have the money buy the Solaris 37 it is just a perfect cruising boat with an impeccable finish. It is like to have a well designed HR. If you are short on money buy the Salona 38.

If it was me I would not be too worried about any of the boats and I would concentrate on the offer they will make you on each boat. Perhaps some brands will be interested in having a boat in the US for the sailing magazines to test, if you don't mind of course and most of all the best deal would be to buy it directly on the factory and sail it to the US. They can take you about 30% of the European price (the Deahler share) and you will not pay the transport...so, big money to save
































































































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*European Boat of the year 2013 II*

And two more classes:

The special boat of the year was won by an American boat from a shipyards the Europeans love: J boats and the winner was the J70. I guess that jboat shipyard is on the wrong side of the pond, I mean the Jboats sell and are more appreciated in Europe than in the US. There are even some models that are made in France and then exported to the US. A big CHAPEAU to Rodney S. Johnstone the NA that designs the Jboats, the only US contemporary NA that manages to be truly appreciated on the very competitive European market. It is good to remember that not long ago the J111 was considered the boat of the year by the readers of a big French sailing magazine and not one specially pointed to racing. I am sure it is a great sailingboat with a fantastic performance since it manage to beat a very strong competition.











And finally the multihull of the year was won by the Outremer 5X and this choice I would say it was expected even with the strong competition of the Dragonfly 32. Outremer are fantastic cats, voyage cats that changed the way a circumnavigation boat was looked at. I mean there are many type of boats that are suited for circumnavigation, Outremer popularized the circumnavigation boats that can do it at 2 digit speeds in a very seaworthy way. Also a fantastic boat to live aboard with a great interior. A fantastic boat and one that deserves the Cat denomination, I mean miau

Outremer Catamaran - Our Catamarans - Outremer 5X


----------



## PCP

*Fastnet 2013*

*"Just a day after entries opened for this year's Fastnet Race the 300-boat limit had been reached. The Royal Ocean Racing Club confirmed entries for the race had reached capacity less than 24 hours after the online entry system opened.:...

Malden Heckstall-Smith, former editor of Yachting Monthly was one of the founders of the Fastnet Race which was conceived by yachtsman-author Weston Martyr. Entered by seven vessels, the inaugural Fastnet Race was won by the pilot cutter Jolie Brise in 1925."*

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/533425/race-to-enter-fastnet

It seems we are going to have a great race

....


----------



## PCP

*Humor time*

*"A sailor involved in his 15th sea rescue has been begged by harbour officials to hang up his wetsuit after costing the RNLI a staggering £40,000 in call-out costs.

But Glenn Crawley refuses to give up sailing, blaming "some granny walking along the cliffs" for the numerous emergency calls made on his behalf.

The 56-year-old says he doesn't need help from the RNLI. "I'm not the one asking to be rescued," he said. "Other people make those calls. My boat has been in mortal danger many times but that's replaceable. I'm not in danger."*

you can read the rest here:

Captain Calamity in 15th sea rescue | ybw


----------



## daviid

Paulo wrote

_I will talk about the other 2 categories when I have the time and also about boat disappointments. The two bigger: The Halberg-Rassy 412 and the Hanse 415._

When you get a chance, I would love to hear your impressions of the Hanse 415.


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 415/HR 412*



daviid said:


> Paulo wrote
> 
> _I will talk about the other 2 categories when I have the time and also about boat disappointments. The two bigger: The Halberg-Rassy 412 and the Hanse 415._
> 
> When you get a chance, I would love to hear your impressions of the Hanse 415.


Hi David,

regarding those two boats I have talked about deception but that does not mean that they are bad boats just that I hoped for more.

Regarding the *Hanse 415*, from the photos it seemed to me that the boat had finally a better quality interior and I mean mostly in what regards design. Well, it has not and the boat exposed was of particular bad taste in what regards color combinations.






It is a shame. Dehler that is from the same group had already managed to sort out the interior design problem and I am sure they contracted a good specialized interior designer to design the 38 interior. I don't understand why Hanse doesn't do the same. Makes no sense. I guess that the guy that is in charge of Hanse is not very sensible to that (not to say that he as an uneducated taste) and he is not able to see that the boats have a problem on that area.

Besides that the storage space is very scarce. They made the interior aft cabins high at the cost of the interior space of the lateral cockpit lockers that are small and the boat has not any other meaningful storage space on the cockpit. Simply you will not have the space to store the fenders inside. On this boat, contrary to the Jeanneau 409, you cannot have a three cabin boat unless you use the boat only for week-end cruising.

About the HR 412, I visited the boat with my daughter that is almost a graduate in design, to show her a boat with a quality interior. Well, she was not impressed at all, neither me. The quality is good but probably not as good as on a Solaris 37 that we had visited previously and the design quality is just vulgar while on the Solaris is outstanding.

The overall design of the boat is also of average quality and I men cabin and cockpit and even my daughter noticed that. The only thing that stands out is the aluminum fixed spraywood that looked as good as ever.

But most of all what was really odd was the lack of storage space on the cockpit, a bit like the Hanse. You just don't have space for taking the fenders in and that is ridiculous in my opinion. Many shipyards have been investing too much in interior space, the one most people notice most on the boat shows, at the cost of outside storage and functionality in what regards cruising.

I was not expecting Halberg-Rassy to be one of them. My boat or the Salona 41 have incomparably more outside storage space than the HR 412. Both boats can be used for cruising with a 3 cabins set-up, not the HR 412, that is like the Hanse 415 strictly a 2 cabin boat in what regards cruising, I mean, not week-end cruising.

I find that unacceptable on a 12.6m boat, specially if it is a main stream cruiser and not a performance boat like the Salona 41 or the Comet 41.






Saying that, I am quite sure that both boats are good sailing boats, or even very good sailing boats (taking into consideration their type) in all other aspects and that's why I was disappointed.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Dusseldorf messe and the European boat market.*

The first impression is that you cannot see any difference in the number of boats. In fact they were so many that I forgot to see some that I wanted to see. A closer look shows some differences: The number of small cruisers with less than 33ft has increased a lot and most of them come from Poland.

I don't know if it is common knowledge but for some years now many of the French boats and some of the Italian boats are in fact made in Polish factories. I guess that the know how needed to make those boats and the increased number of specialized workmanship had permitted the birth of a prosperous local industry and to top the cake there are a lot of interesting new Polish NA.

Those boats seem well made and most of all they are less expensive than the mainstream French boat builders. I heard that at least a Polish brand and not one with the more interesting boats is already available in the US and I guess more will follow.

There are also a lot of sport boats and daysailers, probably more than before and certainly a lot less boats between 33 and 40ft than in previous years. Also a huge increase in really big boats, over 45ft with many boats over 50ft.

I had already discussed elsewhere the reasons for this and it has not only to do with a middle class in trouble but also with the increase of the charter market and most of all with the recent improvements in rigging, winches and boat control (computerized lateral thrusters) that make easy for a couple sailing and cruising on a bigger boat (50ft and over). Most people that are buying cruisers are retired couples or couples near retirement and they feel safer on a bigger boat, not to mention that they want a boat that looks like home, since they are going to live aboard for some months.

I talked with the guys from Salona to know what would be the next boats to be introduced in their line. The 44 has already some years and the 38 is recent but the hull comes from the 37 so I would have expected that in the next 2 to 3 years some new boats, specially a new 44/45 to be presented on the market. Nothing like that. The 38 is selling very well and the priority is to finish their 60ft and to make a 50ft.

It seems that with big boats they can have bigger profit margins and in fact they earn more money with a big boat than with several smaller ones and as there is a demand, they are pointing to profit. And they are not the only ones, if you have a look at the other shipyards, most of them are making more and more big boats and less of what some years ago would be considered a medium sized boat.

I bet that in some 5 to 10 years the European market of the typical mass produced boat of 40ft and smaller will have a large share of Polish boats and we will see probably the disappearance of what are now the entry models on French, German and Italian Shipyards. I guess the entry line for most will be a 36ft boat.










...


----------



## PCP

*Safety: Rya Sea survival handbook*

you can download it here for free:

Rya Sea Survival Handbook - Free eBooks Download


----------



## PCP

*Interesting books that can be downloaded for free:*

Practical Seamanship : Essential Skills for the Modern Sailor - Free eBooks Download

RYA Advanced Sailing: Advanced Handbook - Free eBooks Download

RYA Navigation Handbook - Free eBooks Download


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 36 P*



zdamen said:


> ...
> 
> Just as curiosity, there's one in Belém right now, that's going to cross the atlantic as it's headed for Brasil.
> 
> The owners tried it out last saturday(!)  and as it seems it didn't went under... 50knts registered aboard!!!
> 
> Wasn't my first choice but let's hope it was the right one.
> 
> Cheers all!


Hi José,

That is very interesting. Who are those guys? I want to meet them. Can you invite them to come to this thread?

I have questions and they have interesting information to share, like what was the sail they use to sail in 50K wind (if any sail at all) a light boat like the Dufour 36P and how the boat behaved.

And not only that but to know about their plans. I am interested to know Portuguese long range cruisers. It would be nice not only to meet them as to sail with. Tomorrow I have a lunch with 4 that comes in that category and there are plans to sail the Eastern med and also to Sail to Brasil and Argentina. So please see if besides that invitation you can get me their email.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

*Re: Hanse 415/HR 412*



PCP said:


> About the HR 412, I visited the boat with my daughter that is almost a graduate in design, to show her a boat with a quality interior. Well, she was not impressed at all, neither me. The quality is good but probably not as good as on a Solaris 37 that we had visited previously and the design quality is just vulgar while on the Solaris is outstanding.
> 
> The overall design of the boat is also of average quality and I men cabin and cockpit and even my daughter noticed that. The only thing that stands out is the aluminum fixed spraywood that looked as good as ever.
> 
> But most of all what was really odd was the lack of storage space on the cockpit, a bit like the Hanse. You just don't have space for taking the fenders in and that is ridiculous in my opinion. Many shipyards have been investing too much in interior space, the one most people notice most on the boat shows, at the cost of outside storage and functionality in what regards cruising.
> 
> I was not expecting Halberg-Rassy to be one of them. My boat or the Salona 41 have incomparably more outside storage space than the HR 412. Both boats can be used for cruising with a 3 cabins set-up, not the HR 412, that is like the Hanse 415 strictly a 2 cabin boat in what regards cruising, I mean, not week-end cruising.
> 
> I find that unacceptable on a 12.6m boat, specially if it is a main stream cruiser and not a performance boat like the Salona 41 or the Comet 41.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,
I agree with your take of the Hanse interior. It is a shame, because there is a lot to like about the boats, but the interior quality and finish is a deal breaker, at least for me. The 415 I was on had such thin flooring, the gaps would pinch your bare feet. It is good to know, that Dehler hasn't lowered its quality standard since its marriage with Hanse, unlike Moody.
I am however perplexed at your take of the HR 412. I have not seen the 412 yet, but have been on quite a few HR's and crewed on a 372. The build quality has always been exceptional, and the boats are designed for the reality of sailing, and life aboard underway.
Why do you say the HR is strictly a 2cabin boat? There are 3cabin versions. From a storage point of view?


----------



## PCP

*Re: Hanse 415/HR 412*



bjung said:


> Paulo,
> I agree with your take of the Hanse interior. It is a shame, because there is a lot to like about the boats, but the interior quality and finish is a deal breaker, at least for me. The 415 I was on had such thin flooring, the gaps would pinch your bare feet. It is good to know, that Dehler hasn't lowered its quality standard since its marriage with Hanse, unlike Moody.
> I am however perplexed at your take of the HR 412. I have not seen the 412 yet, but have been on quite a few HR's and crewed on a 372. The build quality has always been exceptional, and the boats are designed for the reality of sailing, and life aboard underway.
> Why do you say the HR is strictly a 2cabin boat? There are 3cabin versions. From a storage point of view?


Let me add something negative about the Hanse: They don't have an water proof bulkhead between the rudder and the rest of the boat. Has you know a violently broken rudder can be one of the reasons for water ingress on a boat and several had sunk that way, including at least one Hanse. That is also a deal breaker for me.

Regarding the HR 412 being strictly a 2 cabin version, yes, it has to do with storage. Any boat that has not on the cockpit lockers enough space for the storage of a liferaft, fenders and some ropes will not fit me and that is very clearly the case with the 3 cabin version of the HR 412 that I had visited.

Some sail with the fenders over the deck. Not me, it is not only ugly as it complicates maneuvering and it is just plain dangerous with bad weather.

Regarding the interior I had not said the interior was of bad quality, I have said that the interior design was average while other quality boats have not only high quality build interiors but also very high quality designed interiors. I am not talking about style, more modern or conservative, I am looking at it as a professional, I mean you can have high quality in design no matter the style.

I guess that HR is one of the boat builders that did not understood yet that as the same way that the hull and rig design should be left to the best professionals, the same happens with interior design. I bet that the HR interior is house designed. No matter the quality of finish that is not enough to warranty the best overall quality and they are going to pay for it. XC yacht has a better design quality as well as others. Just take a look at a comparison photos with the much smaller Solaris 37:





































and regarding 360 pictures, have a look at the HR 412:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/hr412-s_.swf

and at the older winner 12.20:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/winner_1220_.swf

or at the Moody 41:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/moody_41_classic_.swf

or at the Jeanneau 409:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/jeanneau409_s_.swf

or the smaller Xc 38:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/xc38-s_.swf

Note that I am referring to quality in design, not style or build quality and I am not saying that HR has bad quality in design, just average. Older boats do not have trough hull views but they can mount them at request.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

While the Kid is at less than 24 yours to win the race the attention is on Jean-Pierre that had to sail his boat without keel on heavy seas and high winds. He had survived but *CHAPEAU* to* Mike Golding*, look a this:

Email from Alex sent yesterday to Jean-Pierre:

*"Hello Jean-Pierre,

The sea is increasingly big today.

I'm not letting you navigate alone only when the wind will strengthen in a few hours. I'll come and join you gybe, navigate at your side until the weather conditions (wind and waves) become more moderate in the Azores.

I know you did not ask for assistance, but it will not make a big difference to my race and anyway, I have not see any other boats for a few months, I feel alone!

I hope everything goes well for you,

Alex "*

Answer from JP to Alex Thomson:

*"Thank you Alex. It touches me deeply.

I will study the weather to see if I can continue to safely navigate to the Sables d'Olonne".*

and some great images:





Day 77 Highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_





Vendée Globe 2012 - Week 11 Highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## Faster

Sorry, Paulo, if you've covered these, but today there was an inquiry about a Schoechl Sunbeam 34 (Austrian?) and I found an '09 video showing they were still in business then.. do you know of them or are they covered earlier?


----------



## hannah2

PCP, 

I feel you are right about the HR's. They really are just a good cruising boat and not a great cruising boat. Both my wife and I do not feel they are worth the money. Like you say no exterior storage because the company feels it needs bigger sea berths instead of the proper smaller sea berths. Too bad they felt it needed to push out the ends like they did. It's not only fenders one can not stow away its outboards, inflatables, drouges secondary and 3rd anchors, all the fuel cans and all the lines needed to run a boat safely. I have no respect for boats that look like gypsy boats with everything strapped down on deck. There is no need for that in this day and age of good design. My wife has sailed HR's for many miles in her past and always felt the deck layout was poor. She always felt off balance while working on deck, things like shroud layout made for tough movement on deck. Reefing seemed unbalance to her also maybe because there is always too much equipment strapped down on deck.


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> Sorry, Paulo, if you've covered these, but today there was an inquiry about a Schoechl Sunbeam 34 (Austrian?) and I found an '09 video showing they were still in business then.. do you know of them or are they covered earlier?


I don't think so but in fact I was thinking in making a post about the new 28.1 but there are so many new interesting sailingboats....

Yes I know the sunbeams, I have been inside several and last summer I overtook a Sunbeam 44ft passing really close with 25k wind and the boat was going really well for an heavy boat, stable as a rock

10 years ago they looked like CC Bavarias, only a bit better build but they really have been making a big way in what regards design, well Bavarias too, specially in the last years.

Take a look at their new creation, the 28.1, a weekend cruiser. Who would say that this boat come from a very conservative builder





































http://www.sunbeam.at/fileadmin/user_upload/downloads/LAY_Sunbeam_28_2013_quer2.pdf

In 2011 they have released a more conservative cruiser but a nice one with overall great quality and a very nice interior (the Sunbeam were always expensive boats):











Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> PCP,
> 
> I feel you are right about the HR's. They really are just a good cruising boat and not a great cruising boat. Both my wife and I do not feel they are worth the money. Like you say no exterior storage because the company feels it needs bigger sea berths instead of the proper smaller sea berths. Too bad they felt it needed to push out the ends like they did. It's not only fenders one can not stow away its outboards, inflatables, drouges secondary and 3rd anchors, all the fuel cans and all the lines needed to run a boat safely. I have no respect for boats that look like gypsy boats with everything strapped down on deck. There is no need for that in this day and age of good design. My wife has sailed HR's for many miles in her past and always felt the deck layout was poor. She always felt off balance while working on deck, things like shroud layout made for tough movement on deck. Reefing seemed unbalance to her also maybe because there is always too much equipment strapped down on deck.


hannah, it was not really that what I wanted to say. In fact in what regards rigging and sailing the new HR are a lot better than the old ones and they are good sailing boats. What I was saying is that it is expected a 41ft to have the storage space to cruise with 3 cabins, at least medium range cruising. Many 40ft boats can and have the storage for that. Not the HR 412.

That does not mean that the HR 412 with 2 cabins has not an adequate storage for long range cruising. In fact it has. Comparatively the HR 372 is a better boat. For a lot more money the HR 412 offers not much more, just a bit bigger everywhere, but not really able to offer a practical 3 cabin boat.

Regarding price...well they are expensive and I like more the XC line of Xyachts in what regards that type of boats, but then the XC are even more expensive

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And for the ones that want to follow the finish in direct they can do it here:

Vendée Globe - Vendée Globe 2012-2013

It will start at 13.30, local time and that should be in a bit less than half an hour.

The kid is coming home at 17K, what a come back

Jean-Pierre is now 4th and I believe he can keep that place if he manages to maintain the boat the right side up. For the ones that missed most of the race he is sailing without a keel since Brazil. Armel will be second and Alex 3th.

The time will be an incredible one, *78 days*. I believe this record would be difficult to beat on the next edition.


----------



## jameswilson29

What will this do to the support for the Volvo Round the World Race?

Who wants to watch a crewed race, with multiple stops, when these courageous solo sailors fly around the world nonstop at amazing speeds, in boats built with incredible technology?


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> While the Kid is at less than 24 yours to win the race the attention is on Jean-Pierre that had to sail his boat without keel on heavy seas and high winds. He had survived but *CHAPEAU* to* Mike Golding*, look a this:
> 
> "Armel will be second and *Mike* 3th."


Paulo, Did Mike and Alex swap boats?:laugher

What a finish! Not only the first and second "duel", but also the third and fourth places.

Regarding the comparison to the VOR, I think it's two very different events, and although the VG s more sailor-hero-oriented, which is fine, there is nothing like the roadshow that the VOR puts on, with a visiting tour. I don't think a nonstop race will ever draw more crowd than a destination-focused tour, which promotes tourism and thus a greater overall public effect. I'm watching the live feed of the VG first finish, and there is not even 8,000 people watching. I am surprised by such a low number.

Regards to all,

Hans


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Vendee Globe*



HMoll said:


> Paulo, Did Mike and Alex swap boats?:laugher
> 
> What a finish! Not only the first and second "duel", but also the third and fourth places.
> 
> I'm watching the live feed of the VG first finish, and there is not even 8,000 people watching. I am surprised by such a low number.
> 
> Regards to all,
> 
> Hans


That makes at least three of us watching this fantastic moment .
May be all the others are in Les Sables d'Ollonne . Knowing more than 400.000 "skippers" participated in the virtual race, I guess the finish was followed by many different canals. Although the french TV station FR3 interrupted the live report a few minutes before the actual finish because of... a cycling race .

It seems Armel Le Cleac'h is going tot make it in time to enter Les Sables within the same tide, which would make this exceptional celebration day complete.

Kind regards,

Eric


----------



## Jeff_H

I think that the discussion about the HR 412 (Edit-corrected typo) goes to the heart of much of the diversity of opinion about "What is a Blue water boat?".

While the hull form, structural capabilities and rig may be suitable for offshore cruising, (Edit for clarity-the three cabin version with) its interior layout, detailing, storage provisions, and so are clearly better suited to coastal cruising. To me that is perfectly acceptable as design offered to the public as long as that is how the company portrays the design in their own literature and statements. 

But I also think, where these discussions begin to address the realities of boats like these, is that it also makes sense to have a model option which is biased more toward regular offshore use. Offshore bunks, compartments and openings should by necessity be smaller, and there should be solid footholds and handholds. Rigs need to be a little more robust, and carefully conceived and secure storage needs to take a higher priority. 

And I contend that an offshore cruiser making three-four week hops in the Atlantic may not be the same boat as a distance voyaging yacht that crosses the vast open areas of the Pacific. Boats for circumnavigations and a Pacific crossing need to be far more independent and so place a much greater demand on carrying capacity, and storage volumes. 

Jeff


----------



## EricKLYC

Banque Populaire just docked with skipper Armel Le Cleac'h, second of the Vendée Globe, only 3 hours behind the winner, after sailing solo, non stop and without assitance around the world ).

May be you also noticed the little dacron sail F21309 pointing out on the pontoon, in the middle of the journalists? It's the little Optimist Armel first raced with as a child.
This 2.30 meter dinghy has been perfectly restaured by his team, as a very personal surprise gift to their skipper at this arrival . 

Although the Vendée Globe is the ultimate solo race, I think this says quite a lot about the intimacy between skipper and team.

Kind regards,

Eric


----------



## Zoya

*Re: Vendee Globe*



HMoll said:


> Paulo, Did Mike and Alex swap boats?:laugher
> 
> What a finish! Not only the first and second "duel", but also the third and fourth places.
> 
> Regarding the comparison to the VOR, I think it's two very different events, and although the VG s more sailor-hero-oriented, which is fine, there is nothing like the roadshow that the VOR puts on, with a visiting tour. I don't think a nonstop race will ever draw more crowd than a destination-focused tour, which promotes tourism and thus a greater overall public effect. I'm watching the live feed of the VG first finish, and there is not even 8,000 people watching. I am surprised by such a low number.
> 
> Regards to all,
> 
> Hans


The event is carried live on most European TV channels so, that is why the number of online watchers seems low. I believe the live stream is the only way to watch in the US. There are about 50,000 people at Les Sables d'Olonne harbor greeting both, François and Armel at their arrival today.


----------



## hannah2

Jeff_H said:


> I think that the discussion about the HR 416 goes to the heart of much of the diversity of opinion about "What is a Blue water boat?".
> 
> While the hull form, structural capabilities and rig may be suitable for offshore cruising, its interior layout, detailing, storage provisions, and so are clearly better suited to coastal cruising. To me that is perfectly acceptable as design offered to the public as long as that is how the company portrays the design in their own literature and statements.
> 
> But I also think, where these discussions begin to address the realities of boats like these, is that it would perhaps make sense to have a model option which is biased more toward regular offshore use. Offshore bunks, compartments and openings should by necessity be smaller, and there should be solid footholds and handholds. Rigs need to be a little more robust, and carefully conceived and secure storage needs to take a higher priority.
> 
> And I contend that an offshore cruiser making three-four week hops in the Atlantic may not be the same boat as a distance voyaging yacht that crosses the vast open areas of the Pacific. Boats for circumnavigations and a Pacific crossing need to be far more independent and so place a much greater demand on carrying capacity, and storage volumes.
> 
> Jeff


Thanks Jeff for being able to say it properly. Your last paragraph to me is important. I believe you have it right and boats like the HR 416 are perfect boats to do the Atlantic run just as Hinkley's are made for the Atlantic run. Both of those boats can handle any weather and the Atlantic can put out some of the worst in weather.

But for long distant cruising life is far better in a sailing vessel that carries more fuel, water and has better storage than those two types of boats.
When I sailed through the pacific and indonessia 40 years ago 32 ft was fine, no storage, little fuel, little water. Life sailing meant a lot of time worrying about finding such items. Now a days you just don't have to always be looking to the next squall for rain or the next 55 gallon drum of maybe bad fuel and you don't have to worry much about all the gerry cans, outboards, surfboards and the inflatable on deck anymore on a lot of the modern designs. The modern boat gives cruisers more time to enjoy the passage safely, to spend more time learning about the cultures one gets to visit but most important to me is my boat is clean and safe day to day. When you are gone sailing for 4 to 7 years at a time you can get pretty tired of a cluttered boat. Believe me unless you have been there you may not understand what a cluttered boat is like.

So my guess is HR has decided more folks cruise for a week or four than go for long distances over years of time. They know the market and hopefully they make money because they make a good boat but they don't make a good long distance cruiser by having poor exterior storage because they try and open up the bow and stern for more dock and anchorage living space. They are no longer as beefy as maybe they once were.

It's a good debate, I'd like to hear from others on what makes a good boat for how they cruise. Experience please so we can get ideas, cruising should be at least a month at a time on your boat so you know what makes things work for you.

Cheers.


----------



## PCP

*Halberg Rassy 412*



Jeff_H said:


> I think that the discussion about the HR 416 goes to the heart of much of the diversity of opinion about "What is a Blue water boat?".
> While the hull form, structural capabilities and rig may be suitable for offshore cruising, its interior layout, detailing, storage provisions, and so are clearly better suited to coastal cruising. To me that is perfectly acceptable as design offered to the public as long as that is how the company portrays the design in their own literature and statements.


I am not sure I follow. We are talking about the HR 412? The structural capabilities and rig are suitable for offshore cruising, not "may be". HR are known for their structural capabilities and also to be heavier boats with more ballast than lighter cruisers. The boat weights 11 100kg with a 4000kg ballast while the typical mass production 40ft cruiser has between 7500 and 9000kg with a ballast that goes from 2500 to less than 3000kg. The B/D ratio is 36% in a bulbed keel with a 1.99m draft. That puts the boat in what regards stiffness in the performance cruiser class and the sailing results are very good providing there is enough wind to overcome the extra weight.

In fact they say : *"Thus far, the Swedes from Ellos only had the HR 40 with centre cockpit, which is said to remain in production. But now there's also the new, sportier aft-cockpit version, which puts less emphasis on long-distance cruising."*

But of course this is just commercial publicity that has to do with the Halberg-Rassy maintaining the more traditional clients that see in a center cockpit a better blue water boat. That is just publicity designed not to take costumers away from the 40cc while they try to get new type of costumers for the Aft cabin boat (they make the two).

In fact the 40 HRcc that is advertised as *" a long distance cruiser of highest quality from the Swedish island Orust"* is slightly lighter and has just more 100kg of ballast but if we compare both curves we will see a not very different AVS ( 124º to 130º) but a substantially better GZ and much more RM on the 412 ( 7391kgm at 30º and 9829kgm as maxRM at 64.9) versus the 40CC ( 5000kgm at 30º and 7200Kgm as MaxRm at 65º).


















The much more substantial stability and stifness on the Aft cockpit boat is due to a bigger beam ( 4.11m to 3.82m) and also to a more modern designed keel with a lower CG.

There is not a single reason to advertise the 40cc as a long distance cruiser and the 412 as a boat that puts less emphasis on long-distance cruising. In fact the only advantage of the CC is giving the possibility of a king's aft cabin at the cost of more windage and a more uncomfortable motion for the crew.

Regarding outside and inside storage in fact the two cabin version of the 412 offers a much better storage capacity, outside and inside, than any of the only two versions of the 40cc, both 2 cabin versions:


















A boat with a better storage capacity and a boat with a bigger stability is only advertised as a boat that but less emphasis on long-distance cruising for not driving the traditional costumers of the CC boat away. The boat remains in production and that big aft cabin is what many customers want and the CC image is the traditional HR image that is associated with a blue water boat and they don't want to risk that, I mean the image.



Jeff_H said:


> But I also think, where these discussions begin to address the realities of boats like these, is that it would perhaps make sense to have a model option which is biased more toward regular offshore use. Offshore bunks, compartments and openings should by necessity be smaller, and there should be solid footholds and handholds. Rigs need to be a little more robust, and carefully conceived and secure storage needs to take a higher priority.


Here I don't understand. The boat has offshore bunks (the two bunks in the saloon) and there are solid handholds everywhere:












Jeff_H said:


> And I contend that an offshore cruiser making three-four week hops in the Atlantic may not be the same boat as a distance voyaging yacht that crosses the vast open areas of the Pacific. Boats for circumnavigations and a Pacific crossing need to be far more independent and so place a much greater demand on carrying capacity, and storage volumes.


Yes I agree, that's why the HR 412 two cabin version is more adapted to long distance cruising than the HR CC40 since it offers a better stability and a much bigger storage space.

It seems that I was not clear. My comments about the 412 lack of storage regard only the three cabin version. And that one in my book is not even fit for coastal cruising. As I have said the boat has not space to carry the fenders on the cockpit lockers. The lockers are really shallow to provide more interior space.

The boat has not the outside storage to carry what is needed even for proper coastal cruising. That is pretty ridiculous in a boat with obvious bluewater potential. I guess that they should not have made a 3 cabins version, but then there are probably some that will use the boat mostly at the marina and for weekend sailing and that will be enough for them. After all I see lots of boats sailing with the fenders over the deck and that is true that the 3 cabin interior really looks big on the boat show.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



HMoll said:


> Paulo, Did Mike and Alex swap boats?:laugher
> 
> What a finish! Not only the first and second "duel", but also the third and fourth places.
> 
> Regarding the comparison to the VOR, I think it's two very different events, and although the VG s more sailor-hero-oriented, which is fine, there is nothing like the roadshow that the VOR puts on, with a visiting tour. I don't think a nonstop race will ever draw more crowd than a destination-focused tour, which promotes tourism and thus a greater overall public effect. I'm watching the live feed of the VG first finish, and there is not even 8,000 people watching. I am surprised by such a low number.
> 
> Regards to all,
> 
> Hans


Well, they are both English... Just said Mike when I wanted to say Alex

But the important is that a kid that dreamed with winning the Vendee Globe since he was 5 years old had made his dream true, and not an easy one.





La remontée du chenal de François Gabart _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Meanwhile Jean-Pierre is looking for more clement conditions near the Portuguese coast but the truth is that he will get 30K winds when he passes Finisterra cape. I hope it will turn out alright for him. 30K on the Biscay is not a pleasant prospect even with a keel 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

Hi Paulo,

Salon berths can be the best berth on a boat in bad weather. But they are not suitable for cruising every day. Let me please explain, When you are on a 20 to 26 day passage the last thing you want if you can help it is folks who begin to smell really bad after 3 days in tropical heat sleeping in the salon. Also the salon being a sleeping berth means pillows, sheets, blankets have to be stored somewhere then taken back out every time that person sleeping there is off watch. I know some here are saying that is what sailing is all about but when things are smelly and dirty everyday on a boat one gets tired really easy. On any boat 37 feet and longer there should be good sea berths aft and good exterior storage aft that can be reached from above and not walking through the cabin to get to it. 

As for making one of the two aft berths into a storage area. I'd rather see it a work room than a storage area. By the way you just can't have both storage and work area, what a mess that is, been there done that. But even if you use the 2nd aft berth as a full time storage area you end up with a mess in no time at all. Seems like every time you want something it is behind 3 sail bags that you have pull out and dump in the salon till you find what you are looking for. That may not sound bad but do it day after day and it gets old. There are better ways than using the 3rd berth as a storage area. Exterior stowage is great because when open you are looking down at every thing you have in there and should be easier to get at unless you over fill the area with junk. On the 412 I still see no exterior deep lazerettes anywhere in the cockpit or on the stern. Just a 3rd aft berth pushed all the way out to the aft end of the boat. They could have taken 2/3 of a meter off the berth and still had plenty of berth I bet for an ocean going vessel. 

But again that is not what HR is looking for anymore they are now looking for a boat to run down to the Med or the Canary's, maybe make the crossing maybe not. Its a safe boat in most ways just not as well designed as other boats.


----------



## PCP

*Hr 412*



hannah2 said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Salon berths can be the best berth on a boat in bad weather. But they are not suitable for cruising every day. Let me please explain, When you are on a 20 to 26 day passage the last thing you want if you can help it is folks who begin to smell really bad after 3 days in tropical heat sleeping in the salon. Also the salon being a sleeping berth means pillows, sheets, blankets have to be stored somewhere then taken back out every time that person sleeping there is off watch. I know some here are saying that is what sailing is all about but when things are smelly and dirty everyday on a boat one gets tired really easy. On any boat 37 feet and longer there should be good sea berths aft and good exterior storage aft that can be reached from above and not walking through the cabin to get to it.


This is not a big boat for going bluewater and do extensive cruising. I would say that a crew of 2 or 3 is the more adequate to do it.

On this type of relatively small boats the better sea berths were always the saloon berths. They are the ones at the center of the boat and the ones with less sea motion. You are exaggerating regarding the mess. I use a kind of sheet that can involve completely the seat (for protection) and sleep on a personal sheet light bag. Never used the system for more then 10 days but it works perfectly. I know of many guys that use a similar arrangement to cross oceans.












hannah2 said:


> As for making one of the two aft berths into a storage area. I'd rather see it a work room than a storage area. By the way you just can't have both storage and work area, what a mess that is, been there done that. But even if you use the 2nd aft berth as a full time storage area you end up with a mess in no time at all. Seems like every time you want something it is behind 3 sail bags that you have pull out and dump in the salon till you find what you are looking for. That may not sound bad but do it day after day and it gets old. There are better ways than using the 3rd berth as a storage area.
> 
> Exterior stowage is great because when open you are looking down at every thing you have in there and should be easier to get at unless you over fill the area with junk. On the 412 I still see no exterior deep lazerettes anywhere in the cockpit or on the stern. Just a 3rd aft berth pushed all the way out to the aft end of the boat. They could have taken 2/3 of a meter off the berth and still had plenty of berth I bet for an ocean going vessel.
> 
> But again that is not what HR is looking for anymore they are now looking for a boat to run down to the Med or the Canary's, maybe make the crossing maybe not. Its a safe boat in most ways just not as well designed as other boats.


I guess that there is some confusion here. The Two Cabin HR has not a 3th cabin. It has a big locker that can be accessed from the cockpit and eventually through the interior by the head. The boat has not a working space, unless it is modified to have one since the space is there.

What the 2 cabin boat has it is just a big storage space. that should not come as a surprise because it is a common solution used in many cruisers that offer a big storage space at the cost of the third cabin.

As I have said, I like better the XC 42 but I would not consider the boat badly designed, except in what regards an unpractical three cabin versions. In what regards hull design, rig and as a sailingboat the HR have been improving a lot. You have just to look at those two stability curves to see it, not only in speed but also in safety.

For instance, with the boat knocked out at 90º the RM at 90º on the 412 is 7000kgF*m while on the older 40CC is only making 5500KgF*m.

They are as seaworthy or more than before and are not slow boats anymore and point quite well. I call that quite an improvement

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

*Re: Hanse 415/HR 412*



PCP said:


> Regarding the *Hanse 415*, from the photos it seemed to me that the boat had finally a better quality interior and I mean mostly in what regards design. Well, it has not and the boat exposed was of particular bad taste in what regards color combinations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a shame. Dehler that is from the same group had already managed to sort out the interior design problem and I am sure they contracted a good specialized interior designer to design the 38 interior. I don't understand why Hanse doesn't do the same. Makes no sense. I guess that the guy that is in charge of Hanse is not very sensible to that (not to say that he as an uneducated taste) and he is not able to see that the boats have a problem on that area.
> 
> Besides that the storage space is very scarce. They made the interior aft cabins high at the cost of the interior space of the lateral cockpit lockers that are small and the boat has not any other meaningful storage space on the cockpit. Simply you will not have the space to store the fenders inside. On this boat, contrary to the Jeanneau 409, you cannot have a three cabin boat unless you use the boat only for week-end cruising.
> 
> About the HR 412, I visited the boat with my daughter that is almost a graduate in design, to show her a boat with a quality interior. Well, she was not impressed at all, neither me. The quality is good but probably not as good as on a Solaris 37 that we had visited previously and the design quality is just vulgar while on the Solaris is outstanding.
> 
> The overall design of the boat is also of average quality and I men cabin and cockpit and even my daughter noticed that. The only thing that stands out is the aluminum fixed spraywood that looked as good as ever.
> 
> But most of all what was really odd was the lack of storage space on the cockpit, a bit like the Hanse. You just don't have space for taking the fenders in and that is ridiculous in my opinion. Many shipyards have been investing too much in interior space, the one most people notice most on the boat shows, at the cost of outside storage and functionality in what regards cruising.
> 
> I was not expecting Halberg-Rassy to be one of them. My boat or the Salona 41 have incomparably more outside storage space than the HR 412. Both boats can be used for cruising with a 3 cabins set-up, not the HR 412, that is like the Hanse 415 strictly a 2 cabin boat in what regards cruising, I mean, not week-end cruising.
> 
> I find that unacceptable on a 12.6m boat, specially if it is a main stream cruiser and not a performance boat like the Salona 41 or the Comet 41.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saying that, I am quite sure that both boats are good sailing boats, or even very good sailing boats (taking into consideration their type) in all other aspects and that's why I was disappointed.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

Thanks for all the feedback. As ever no punches pulled but that what makes this such a great thread.

A few things though.

- Design Unlimited were responsible for the interior design in my Hanse 350. Hanse do seem to have contracted an outside specialist. You obviously feel that it is more Design Limited than Design Unlimited
- Colour combinations - I am not sure what combos were shown at the Dusseldorf boat show, but most of the combos I have seen involve grey, natural sandy colors, stainless steel and white. Dufour, Jeanneau and many others have opted for this which I personally really like. As the French say though "on discute des gouts et des couleurs" which basically means that these are down to personal taste
- quality of workmanship. Are we sure that we are making a valid comparison here. Comparing a boat that costs a third of another is hardly a valid comparison. Hanse 415 versus Halberg Rassy 412 is no comparison as much as I love my Hanse. Most Hanse owners are more interested in the hull strength with GRP strong back, stability, good design from Judel Vrolijk, the rig which is now from Selden and Lewmar.. And of course speed. The Hanse motto is easy sailing, fast sailing which I think is an accurate summary
- storage. I agree with your comments absolutely. We sail with our fenders on the deck because of a lack of space and I don't want to store them down below. Not the safest and not ideal but acceptable for coastal hopping. The solution on a 35 foot yacht is to have 2 berths instead of 3 and to be able to access the storage area from the cockpit as well as from the head as is the norm. This is a perfectly acceptable solution for coastal sailing IMHO. I don't have any experience to comment on whether this works for long distance cruising. I have seen some very well organized storage areas in boats that have been set up like this.
- A 2 berth Hanse 415 would solve all of the storage issues and would be perfect for coastal hopping. On the other hand, the big brands are designing boats for coastal cruising and the charter market. The emphasis here is on comfort at anchorage and in a marina and in this regard I think they have got it right albeit by sacrificing storage. Compromise compromise ...
- Water tight compartment near the rudder. A brilliant idea and I would prefer to have one for sure. However, again if we are comparing Hanse with Dufour, with Jeanneau with Beneteau with Bavaria, do they have a watertight compartment in this area? I am asking the question because I don't know. If the answer is yes and Hanse are lacking in this area, you can be sure that I will throw the cat amongst the pigeons in our forum.

Chapeau to Francois. An unbelievable achievement. The Mount Everest of yachting and then some. What these folks know about yachts compared to my knowledge leaves me feeling like an absolute beginner.

Cheers

David


----------



## PCP

*Re: Hanse 415/HR 412*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> Thanks for all the feedback. As ever no punches pulled but that what makes this such a great thread.
> 
> A few things though.
> 
> - Design Unlimited were responsible for the interior design in my Hanse 350. Hanse do seem to have contracted an outside specialist. You obviously feel that it is more Design Limited than Design Unlimited
> - Colour combinations - I am not sure what combos were shown at the Dusseldorf boat show, but most of the combos I have seen involve grey, natural sandy colors, stainless steel and white. Dufour, Jeanneau and many others have opted for this which I personally really like. As the French say though "on discute des gouts et des couleurs" which basically means that these are down to personal taste
> - quality of workmanship. Are we sure that we are making a valid comparison here. Comparing a boat that costs a third of another is hardly a valid comparison. Hanse 415 versus Halberg Rassy 412 is no comparison as much as I love my Hanse.


Hi David. I am not comparing the Hanse with the Halberg-Rassy. They appeared together because both boats presented at Dusselforf disappointed me and not for the same reasons. They disappointed me because I had high hopes on both boats and in the Hanse case it was the possibility of its interior being of better design quality than the previous Hanse and that is not the case.

Regarding materials and color schemes, I am looking at it with the eyes of a professional in the area. I am used to give people what they want in regards tastes that are not necessarily mine but other thing is the quality in design choices and color combinations. The model that I saw had just an unacceptably bad quality on the color scheme. Not to do with my particular preference for that scheme...it was just wrong. Besides the interior wood was looking more Ikea than never and really did not even looked like wood but some plastic imitation of wood.

Again I am not comparing with the HR but with previous Hanse and other boats on the same category like Oceanis, Bavaria, Jeanneau or Dufour.



daviid said:


> Most Hanse owners are more interested in the hull strength with GRP strong back, stability, good design from Judel Vrolijk, the rig which is now from Selden and Lewmar.. And of course speed. The Hanse motto is easy sailing, fast sailing which I think is an accurate summary...
> 
> - Water tight compartment near the rudder. A brilliant idea and I would prefer to have one for sure. However, again if we are comparing Hanse with Dufour, with Jeanneau with Beneteau with Bavaria, do they have a watertight compartment in this area? I am asking the question because I don't know. If the answer is yes and Hanse are lacking in this area, you can be sure that I will throw the cat amongst the pigeons in our forum.


David, I like many things on Hanse, specially regarding stability. It is one of the most seaworthy boats in its class and it is just because I like many things that I am pissed and disappointed that they cannot manage to put the rest of their act together.

The interior lack of quality in design is an example, they no longer offered an epoxy option on the hull is another and regarding to water tight bulkheads (protecting a possible rudder water ingress) each boat is a case and I don't know what models have them but I know that for Instance all Salonas have them, my boat too and I think Elans and Dehlers too. Not sure about the others. it is not that difficult or expensive and it is a big safety feature. I remember some years back a brand new Hanse 37 went under quickly because it had broken the rudder (water ingress) and had not a waterproof bulkhead.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

Hi Paulo

Thanks for keeping the thread alive once again 

Have a look here

Hanse 415 - reviews, opinions, videos - myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum

Cheers

David


----------



## PCP

*A crazy guy and an impressive achievement.*

*A non stop circumnavigation against the prevailing winds with a relatively small and old boat:*

Well this guy is maybe a bit mad (223 days alone) but its performance is impressive. Only 6 sailors had managed to do that before and he is the first to make it with a production boat, with the smaller one and most of all *without engine*, relying only on solar panels for electricity.

*CHAPEAU to Stéphane Narvaez*











TEAMDEFIS - Défis GEC - Défis 4SMS - "Il n'y a pas de liberté sans risque, sans ignorance, sans aventure."

The boat is a very interesting boat, an upwind boat and a boat able to sail in very light winds (narrow, light and with a lot of ballast), a Sharp 47.

The Sharp 47 is a Guy RIBADEAU-DUMAS design from the 80's, a very narrow aluminium (2.8m) sailboat and also very light (3400kg) with a 1.95m of draft.

http://www.stephanedefis.com/web_images/C_bache_01_1.jpg

He bought the boat in bad shape for 15 000 euros in 2010 and took about a year and a half to put it in good shape, with the help of fiends.

Here you can have a look at his boat:

*MOVIE:*

Visite d'Oïkos, le Sharp 47 de Stéphane Narvaez

You can find some in better shape on the used market for about 50 000 euros:










SHARP 47 ULDB ALU-1984-55 000-LEGUEN HEMIDY- XBOAT, your neXt BOAT ? annonces de vedettes et voiliers d?occasion à vendre


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## distantshores

Hi Daviid & Paulo,

I haven't heard people criticize the lack of storage for fenders before - but I totally agree. Our latest boat - Southerly 49 has a large forward "sail" locker but we use it mainly for fenders. When we put to sea we have no fenders out on deck - and we carry a lot of fenders! 4 very large tube fenders, 4 large tubes and 2 smaller. All stowed in the locker.

Paul Shard
SV Distant Shores II - Southerly 49 Swing-keel
Distant Shores II


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## distantshores

Our current boat is a Southerly 49 - a "swing-keel" sailboat that draws less than 3 feet with the keel up. This summer we took the mast down and went right across France via the Seine, Paris and the small locks to the Med - 179 locks in all. 

However she is also a good offshore sailing boat and also this past fall we took part in the ARC Rally for Cruisers crossing the Atlantic in just 15.5 days. With the keel all the way down we draw 10'4". The keel weighs in at a hefty 2,000kg so she sails quite well upwind. For the tradewind crossing with the ARC we swung the keel much of the way up. Then the boat really likes going downwind since the center of lateral resistance moves aft as you swing up the keel. I think we were one of the very few boats in the ARC that could do both the French canals and a transatlantic passage in 15,5 days... but I'm biased


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## PCP

*Dusseldorf's most impressive boat:*

Ok, there was there some big boats, big Oysters and a big and nicer Contest but the boat that really impressed me was this one:



PCP said:


> Take a look at this babie:
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> This boat looks so beautiful that one wonders if this is not going to be one of those very nice designs that never see the light of the day. The Project was announced some years ago and I thought that it was going to be the case.
> 
> I was wrong. They say the boat is going to be presented in Dusseldorf. Uau!!!!, I am not going to miss this one
> 
> The boat is not only beautiful as also its specifications are incredibly good in what concerns a seaworthy and incredibly powerful boat, one that uses a lifting torpedo keel that allows those performance while permitting a reasonable draft for cruising.
> 
> This is a Botin Carkeek & Partners 45ft design, the boat is made with carbon using infusion with mast and boom in carbon. It can have a variable draft (1.75 to 2.75 meters). Weight is only 8.0 tons, and almost half of it is on the ballast. It is a moderately beamed boat, much on the line of Italian performance boats.
> 
> SPECIFICATIONS
> LOA 13.72 m
> LWL 12.94 m
> Bmax 4.15 m
> Displacement - Lightship 8000 kgs
> Draft (up/dwn) 1.75/2.75 m
> Upwind Sail Area 122.1 m2
> Downwind Sail Area 259.8 m2
> 
> This is not one of those adventure projects that are made by some very small and amateurish companies that make a prototype and die. This boat is being built by Premier Composite Technologies a big company specialized on top composite technologies in several sectors and with a lot of naval experience. They build for designers like Farr, Botin-Carkeek, Judel-Vrolijk, Jason Ker and Mark Mills. they have built the Landmark 43, the Ker 53, the JV40, the Farr 11's and the Farr400. Maybe the reason that allows them to offer this boat to a very interesting price, about 500 000 Euros, is possibly related with the use of a big industrialized set up in what regards composites.
> 
> They say about the boat:
> 
> *Premier Composite Technologies flagship model, the Premier 45, is a fast, high performance, short handed cruiser.
> 
> Designed by Botin-Carkeek, designers of the Team New Zealand TP52, the Premier 45 is built for speed with a carbon fibre and foam cored hull. Featuring a lifting keel and a modern, stylish - yet comfortable - interior, the Premier 45 is the ultimate cruising racer.
> 
> Generous upwind and downwind sail area provide the horsepower for class leading performance whilst low displacement and wetted surface area ensure the Premier 45 is easily driven whatever the conditions. The hull design has been developed to excel in downwind conditions and maintain stable handling in waves when further offshore. Carefully optimized foil designs mean the Premier 45 tacks swiftly and maintains excellent low speed manoeuvrability during the pre-start.
> 
> Premier Composite Technologies has succeeded in combining a true racing pedigree with all the practicalities required for a great short handed cruising yacht.
> *
> 
> ....


45ft and the same weight as my 41, that is not heavy, well, its just great but its was not only that but a good finish and an interior that really permits cruising, in fact a nice one even if that huge saloon, with good holdings on the cabin top has a galley where it would be impossible to work on with the boat on the wrong tack. Well, you can always change tack for cooking

Anyway the boat has a lifting keel, very well integrated on the boat and a draft with the keel up of only 1.75m. It as also a storage adequate for cruising including tankage, Howw!!! That would be like a sea autocaravan that in fact is a Ferrari.

Just beautiful, I would like very much to get a ride on that boat that certainly has an awesome pointing ability and one that will make going against the wind almost as fast as the speed many cruisers are able to do downwind, I don't mean fast ones, just old ones

Some pictures of the boat at the boatshow:


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## Jeff_H

*Re: Halberg Rassy 412*



PCP said:


> We are talking about the HR 412? The structural capabilities and rig are suitable for offshore cruising, not "may be".


Paulo, we are not in disagreement. You are reacting in this case to colloquial English, in which the term 'may be' is intended to acknowledge the "given's" before addressing the contrasting point. The use of the term 'may be' in my sentence was not meant to suggest that the hull, structure and rig of the Halberg Rassey 412 was not structurally suited to offshore.



PCP said:


> [Regarding outside and inside storage in fact the two cabin version of the 412 offers a much better storage capacity, outside and inside, than any of the only two versions of the 40cc, both 2 cabin versions:


You are right. I was trying to use the contrast in layout between the two and three cabin layout, as an example of why a boat may be capable of going offshore, but not necessarily optimized for going offshore.




















PCP said:


> A boat with a better storage capacity and a boat with a bigger stability is only advertised as a boat that but less emphasis on long-distance cruising for not driving the traditional costumers of the CC boat away. The boat remains in production and that big aft cabin is what many customers want and the CC image is the traditional HR image that is associated with a blue water boat and they don't want to risk that, I mean the image.:


I was not intending to comment on the specifics of how this boat was marketed, but more on how I think that companies should think about their products and market them fairly. My point is that I have no problem with a company building a boat which is clearly biased towards simple coastal cruising in terms of trading off storage for other amenities. My only point is that when a company does that, it needs to be clear in its marketing that this version of the model is not as optimized for offshore cruising as it might be.



PCP said:


> Here I don't understand. The boat has offshore bunks (the two bunks in the saloon) and there are solid handholds everywhere:
> 
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With regards to the interior images, this is an great example demonstrating a boat which can be taken offshore, vs one that has been optimized for going offshore. When I look at the layout, there should be dedicated seaberths. While its true that leecloths can be added to make a berth function as a seaberth, its a whole lot nicer to actually have berths that are proportioned to sleeping at sea vs developed around the widths needed for seating.

Hand holds should be nearly continous and at a height between 30 or so degrees above and below shoulder height with the arm fully extended. When you look at the span of the table and settees there is not suitable height grab bars. (Ergonomically, overhead handgrips are a dislocated shoulder going somewhere to happen.)

Similarly, ideally for offshore there should be footholds and some form of non-skid on the decking. Shiny varnished cabin soles are a death trap in wet boat shoes and unless the carpet can be held down, so is carpet. Some of the Beneteaus used a neat deck material with small, raised, rubber stipes instead of holly. Like some New Zealand and South African boats that I have seen, a simpler solution is to varnish in 1 cm non-skid strips every 3 cm or so.

Items like ports in the hull, and the comparatively light duty window framing is also suspect in extreme going.

This cabin is has a number or loose lids with finger holes as locker tops on cabinet. That is usually okay for most coastal sailing, but become projectiles offshore and so should have ways to secure the locker and lid. Sliding doors can be made to work offshore, but are not the most reliable solution as well.

The point is not to criticize this particular boat. She looks well constructed and suitable for her intended use. My point that I was trying to make is that there is a next step to optimizing a boat like this for offshore cruising which frankly does not appear to have been done here.

And that goes to the heart of the frequent conversations about the difference between being offshore capable vs what makes an ideal offshore yacht, vs what makes an ideal distance cruiser.

Jeff


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## PCP

*Southerly 49*



distantshores said:


> Hi Daviid & Paulo,
> 
> I haven't heard people criticize the lack of storage for fenders before - but I totally agree. Our latest boat - Southerly 49 has a large forward "sail" locker but we use it mainly for fenders. When we put to sea we have no fenders out on deck - and we carry a lot of fenders! 4 very large tube fenders, 4 large tubes and 2 smaller. All stowed in the locker.
> 
> Our current boat is a Southerly 49 - a "swing-keel" sailboat that draws less than 3 feet with the keel up. This summer we took the mast down and went right across France via the Seine, Paris and the small locks to the Med - 179 locks in all.
> 
> However she is also a good offshore sailing boat and also this past fall we took part in the ARC Rally for Cruisers crossing the Atlantic in just 15.5 days. With the keel all the way down we draw 10'4". The keel weighs in at a hefty 2,000kg so she sails quite well upwind. For the tradewind crossing with the ARC we swung the keel much of the way up. Then the boat really likes going downwind since the center of lateral resistance moves aft as you swing up the keel. I think we were one of the very few boats in the ARC that could do both the French canals and a transatlantic passage in 15,5 days... but I'm biased
> 
> Paul Shard
> SV Distant Shores II - Southerly 49 Swing-keel
> Distant Shores II


Thanks for the nice pictures. Well, it seems that we are already two. My boat as a forward sail locker too and I also prefer to keep the fenders there.

Certainly not many boats can go fast and have the ability to do the French canals or to be beached but among the regulars of this thread you have at least three with boats that can do that: Anders that has an Opium 39, Eric that has a Pogo 12.50 and hannah that is waiting for a Boreal 44

I find the Southerly 49 a very beautiful boat and one that manages perfectly to integrate the height needed for the deck saloon in an overall elegant line.

A great design by Rob Humphreys, one of the better, a design that has already some years and looks as contemporary as when it was launched.

He says about the boat:

*The design brief was very specific - to build a powerful, sleek and stunning yacht, with blue water cruising capabilities, for continuous long distance sailing, around the world. Shallow draft was an essential feature. The 'easy to handle' sailing characteristics of the Southerly 42RST were necessary, but on a longer waterline length for fast ocean passage making.

Humphreys Yacht Design was responsible for the design of the hull, rig, keel and sail plan. This blue water cruiser offers the latest thinking in cruising yacht design. The hull is characterised by a long waterline, fine entry and beam carried aft to ensure the highest degree of performance, stability and safety. The Southerly 49 is primarily designed for a high cruising specification, with easy handling, and can be sailed by just two people.

As with all Southerly's, the semi balanced twin rudders give instantly responsive steering and precise directional stability.
*















Regards

Paulo


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## distantshores

Paulo, Yes the Boreals look lovely. I didn't know the Pogo could dry out, interesting. There were Pogos in the ARC and they were quite quick although I don't know if they were liftkeel versions.

Paul


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## EricKLYC

distantshores said:


> I didn't know the Pogo could dry out, interesting. There were Pogos in the ARC and they were quite quick although I don't know if they were liftkeel versions.
> 
> Paul


In theory, every Pogo with a swinging keel should be able to dry out, the lifted keel and the twin rudders providing a perfectly stable basis. 
But this is not a good idea, because both rudders and keel are built in composite. Their surface is all vinylester/glassfibre/PVC foam core, also around the lead ballast, and carefully faired to racing standards. 
Unlike iron cast keels where you only risk the paint, if the boats sits on a rock or any other scraping surface, at least the gelcoat of the leading edge of the keel will be damaged and that would really be a shame. Also for the bottom edge of the rudders.

Referring to earlier posts, I very much agree that a separate, waterproof compartment around the rudder stock(s) is an important offshore safety feature. Even more with twin rudders, since these are much more vulnerable without the protection of the keel (cfr. the UFO damage on Tanguy De Lamotte's Initiatives Coeur in the Vendée Globe). 
And a serious "crash box" in the bow, which we only use to stow light fenders and warps instead of heavy sails.

In my opinion, adequate stowage is not only a comfort issue but also has important safety implications (cfr. the earlier issue about a readily available boarding ladder in an emergency). 
On our boat the starboard aft "cabin" is dedicated to technical hardware (fuel tank, autopilot, hot water bulb, battery charger, heating, etc.) and stowing. Quite huge, even with all the sails in there (spinnaker, code 0, staysail), life jackets, grab bag, dehumidifier, spares and all other kinds of equipment, there is still more than enough space to sleep a big (bad ) child.

But my point is: this "cabin" is only accessible through the heads compartment. And believe me, this makes pushing and pulling a spinnaker or even a (very heavy Dacron) staysail in and out quite a job. And the unrolling/wetted toilet paper systematically ruins the very last bit of fun with this maneuver .

Making this huge stowing space also accessible from the cockpit through a nice, wide hatch in the cockpit seat would of course make life very much easier. 
Why not? Structures will not discuss about this: it's unsafe, so we won't do it.

What's your opinion?

Kind regards,

Eric


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## hannah2

I agree that having the a hatch entry into the storage area may be unsafe. But we are big boys and girls who go sailing off over the horizon and if the hatch can be secured properly it would not be a problem. Most blue water boats have big hatches in the cockpit with the potential to fill with water. The company making the boat just needs to be willing to put the effort into making them safe. 

What I hate about having storage room without top hatches is how dirty the boat gets. Just bringing fenders that have been over the side for a while have nice green goop and oily smudge on them. It is hard to wash them when leaving port trying to raise sails etc. So much nicer when you can just drop them down into a box from above. Same for wet sails that need to be put away quickly, nothing like dripping saltwater on the inside soul of the boat to walk in and spread everywhere. Salt on cloth covers is so enjoyable to sit on.


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## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> ...
> Referring to earlier posts, I very much agree that a separate, waterproof compartment around the rudder stock(s) is an important offshore safety feature. Even more with twin rudders, since these are much more vulnerable without the protection of the keel (cfr. the UFO damage on Tanguy De Lamotte's Initiatives Coeur in the Vendée Globe).
> And a serious "crash box" in the bow, which we only use to stow light fenders and warps instead of heavy sails.
> 
> In my opinion, adequate stowage is not only a comfort issue but also has important safety implications (cfr. the earlier issue about a readily available boarding ladder in an emergency).
> On our boat the starboard aft "cabin" is dedicated to technical hardware (fuel tank, autopilot, hot water bulb, battery charger, heating, etc.) and stowing. Quite huge, even with all the sails in there (spinnaker, code 0, staysail), life jackets, grab bag, dehumidifier, spares and all other kinds of equipment, there is still more than enough space to sleep a big (bad ) child.
> 
> But my point is: this "cabin" is only accessible through the heads compartment. And believe me, this makes pushing and pulling a spinnaker or even a (very heavy Dacron) staysail in and out quite a job. And the unrolling/wetted toilet paper systematically ruins the very last bit of fun with this maneuver .
> 
> Making this huge stowing space also accessible from the cockpit through a nice, wide hatch in the cockpit seat would of course make life very much easier.
> Why not? Structures will not discuss about this: it's unsafe, so we won't do it.
> 
> What's your opinion?
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Eric


Yes and no

Yes regarding the front crash box. I have also one on my boat, or two, since the first bulkhead for the anchor locker and the second one for the sail locker are both waterproof and yes, it is also an important safety feature.

Yes and no for the rudders. For me in what regards safety the best type is your type of rudders, I mean two but with a safety device that swings them if they hit an object.

That is true that they have the disadvantage of being more exposed without the keel protection and that is a disadvantage. But today on performance cruisers (and even on modern cruisers) the rudders are so deep that they have almost the same length of the keel to the point that I am always very cautious when mooring the boat med style on small med ports. The transom stays near the wall and I can have depth for the keel and not for the rudder.

Also if you damage one, or have any problem with it, you still have the other. you will only able to sail to one tack (maybe even able to sail slowly to the other one) but will be able to motor the boat.

Regarding lockers that open to the interior of a big storage space and in the case of your boat it is really big: No....and yes. Having a cockpit looker opening to the interior of all the boat, no. I agree that would be dangerous but you can subdivide that technical/storage space making a water proof bulkhead and having it accessible from the outside, I mean, a relatively big locker isolated from the rest of the boat. Of course for big I don't mean the full side of your storage/technical space but just a fraction of it.

Other sportive boats use big waterproof hatches (the same type you have on the cockpit of your boat) that can be open and closed from outside and that allow the access to lockers.

There is always a way of solving problems...but it is expensive specially if they had not previewed that from the beginning. They would have to make new moldings for that part of the boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Neo 400: What a boat*

I love Italian design and Italian boats. Sure French boats are great but they don't have the flare of Italian boats. Just look at this one:














































That is a Ceccarelli design (Azuree 40) and Giovanni Ceccarelli says about it:

*Being invited by the new Brand of Neo yachts is like a breath of fresh air...Neo offered us the chance to make something special...The new company ambition was to creare the perfect stylish but dual purpose modern yacht... comfortable, safe and dry for offshore cruising but fully competitive under IRC and ORCI rules.*

The boat uses a lifting bulb keel that does not require hydraulic. That is very interesting and I would like to know more about that.

This is, of course, a State of the art full prepreg-unidirectional carbon fiber racer-cruiser 40′ yacht .

The Principal Dimension goes with the looks, just great:

LOA 12.15 m
BMAX 3.99 m
DRAFT 2.70/1.60 m
DSPL = 4600 kg 
BALLAST = 2400 kg
FRESH WATER TANKS = 250 Lt
FUEL TANKS = 100 Lt
ENGINE POWER Volvo Penta S drive
SAIL AREA UPWIND = 100 sqm
Gennaker : 165 sqm

The fuel tankage seems not much but who needs an engine with a boat like this? 100 sqm upwind to 4600kg? Jesus, do you had a look at the B/D ratio of this boat? With all the ballast on a bulb at 2.7m? and with a considerable beam. This boat will not only sail with as little as 3 or 4K wind ( going over wind speed) as it will be able to go upwind in a gale like a rocket pointing like a devil. That is a STIFF boat

they say about it:

*Italian design and style
* and I can only agree and I will add, at its best.

and I am wasting to much time on this but I had to share this one, what a boat

....


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## PCP

*Boat tests: Salona 41, Dufour 36P, Grand Soleil 39.*

Starting by an unusual one coming from the other side of the world, from the main sailing NZ magazine and those guys know one or two things about sailing, a sail test on the *Salona 41*. What do you think was their opinion on the boat?:

http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/Boating New Zealand 01-2013.pdf

Then two from the German magazine "Yacht" regarding the *Dufour 36p* that shows why the boat won the title of 2013 European performance cruiser:

Dufour 36: Clever High Performer - uk.boats.com

and another one now about the *Grand Soleil 39* and I guess that it explains why the GS 39 did not had a chance against the Dufour. By the way "stick" means mast that's how good the translation is

Grand Soleil 39: Nifty, charming and fast - uk.boats.com


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## PCP

*Clipper 70*

You know the Clipper Round the World race? That kind of VOR for amateurs on heavy steel boats? These ones:
















Well, no more. I mean they will continue to race with amateurs that pay for the thrill but they will not do it on an old steel boat but on a relatively modern "race" boat. Nothing exciting, a design from Tony Castro, but a much more modern, lighter and faster boat than the previous one, a composite boat.

Clipper Race - The Clipper 70










































Nothing wrong with the boat but it is certainly a faster and more demanding boat to sail than the previous one and for what I have seen on previous races about everybody with a minimum of sailing experience can enter the "race" providing it has the money for it. This boat will not be too demanding for an inexperienced crew? I have my doubts.

...


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## PCP

*Dusseldorf boat show: a better view.*

Several new boats can be seen between them the Elan 400 the Sunbeam 28.1, the winner 9.0, the Premier 45.


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## PCP

*Nostalgia*

I was throwing out some old pictures from my archive when I found these oldies. They are nice, maybe you like them too:


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## Melrna

Love this boat porn first thing in the morning, Thanks Paulo. From the looks of it the Dusseldorf boat show is the largest boat venue in the world. It puts the Annapolis show in the dust for sure.


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## outbound

Hi- PCP ?what is the wooden boat under construction. ?Is it edge nailed strip plank on laminated frame. ?Is it out of Lundenburg


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## hannah2

outbound said:


> Hi- PCP ?what is the wooden boat under construction. ?Is it edge nailed strip plank on laminated frame. ?Is it out of Lundenburg


Sorry I do not have any of that info but can you imagine walking into that shop and the smell of that beautiful wood.

Also don't you love the neatness of a master shipwright.

Thanks PCP for the pics.

Cheers


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## PCP

*Dusseldorf*



Melrna said:


> Love this boat porn first thing in the morning, Thanks Paulo. From the looks of it the Dusseldorf boat show is the largest boat venue in the world. It puts the Annapolis show in the dust for sure.


Thanks for the feedback. Yes it will not be only Annapolis boat show but all of them. I used to go to Barcelona that is a relatively big boat show and then to Paris but even if Paris has a lot of nice boats from small local builders, not even that one can compare to Dusseldorf. Those movies that I have posted refereed to sailing-boats and that is just a fraction of the show. On this video from last year you can have a better idea of the dimension. Just imagine that each sector is as big as the one with sailboat cruisers and you will have an idea:






and also the amount of information you have available is incredible not only on account of the exposed stuff but because all the guys that really know about anything related to any marine subject are there somewhere, from naval architects to engine and transmission engineers passing by sail-makers.

If you want any information about technical stuff it happens like that: First you talk with the pretty smiling girl on the stand that don't know nothing about anything and calls Mr X that at least understands what you are talking about and phone to Mr Y that is the real technician (enginer, NA) and is very happy to talk with someone that appreciates his knowledge and with whom he can exchange some interesting information.

Trough the years I had some interesting conversations with lots of interesting people, including EriK Stromberg that is a fascinating guy, a good sailor and is in great measure responsible by the success of modern Jeanneaus. Much of the direction the shipyard took on the last years is due to his influence...and it's funny because he is an American.






Another interesting thing is that the boat show is so big, with so many boats and stuff that you don't have to wait to visit the boats, specially if you come on a week day and even in the week-end that is not a problem.

Many people ask themselves why a nice relatively small city hosts the biggest boat show in the world. That has to do with centrality and the excellence of public transportation in central Europe. Look at the map: Dusseldorf is near an incredible number of big cities with fast train linkages to all. At about the same distance that separates Dusseldorf from Hamburg or Berlin (or closer) you have London, Paris, Brussels, Antwerp, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Cologne, Frankfort, Munich, Stuttgart, Luxembourg, Zurich, Strasbourg, Geneva and just a bit more far away, Prague, Copenhagen, Malmo, Vienna, Gothenburg and Milan. If you consider that and the excellent airplane net, railway and metro public transportation on that area and particularly in Dusseldorf, it starts to make a lot of sense.

Even from Portugal, that is one of the European's most distant countries from Dusseldorf, it's only 2.5 hours on a direct airplane flight.

And they are also clever, do you know that when you buy a ticket, even by Internet, the ticket provides free transportation (inside city limits) to and from the fair? I know you would love to visit it and consider that is also a great place as a base to visit central Europe (not to mention an old brewery in the old town center that makes its own beer, one of the best I have ever tasted).

Best regards

Paulo


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## Faster

An actual variety of real sailboats to look at and no lineups??? Both of those things are pretty much unheard of here in the PNW.. that would be a treat.

The only saving grace of our (admittedly midget) boat shows here in Vancouver and Seattle are the coincidental floating venues..


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## PCP

*Bluenose*



hannah2 said:


> Sorry I do not have any of that info but can you imagine walking into that shop and the smell of that beautiful wood.
> 
> Also don't you love the neatness of a master shipwright.
> 
> Thanks PCP for the pics.
> 
> Cheers


The truth is that I can't remember. It is an old photo that I had taken from the net long ago.

But this one I know, its the Bluenose II a replica of a Canadian Famous boat:
















Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

*Re: Bluenose*



PCP said:


> ....
> 
> But this one I know, its the Bluenose II a replica of a Canadian Famous boat:
> 
> Paulo


... and here she is from last summer, just weeks before relaunch in Lunenbergh at the end of her latest refit.


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Neo 400: What a boat*



PCP said:


> I love Italian design and Italian boats. Sure French boats are great but they don't have the flare of Italian boats. Just look at this one:
> 
> That is a Ceccarelli design (GS39) and Giovanni Ceccarelli says about it:
> 
> *Being invited by the new Brand of Neo yachts is like a breath of fresh air...Neo offered us the chance to make something special...The new company ambition was to creare the perfect stylish but dual purpose modern yacht... comfortable, safe and dry for offshore cruising but fully competitive under IRC and ORCI rules.*
> 
> The boat uses a lifting bulb keel that does not require hydraulic. That is very interesting and I would like to know more about that.
> 
> This is, of course, a State of the art full prepreg-unidirectional carbon fiber racer-cruiser 40′ yacht .
> 
> The Principal Dimension goes with the looks, just great:
> 
> LOA 12.15 m
> BMAX 3.99 m
> DRAFT 2.70/1.60 m
> DSPL = 4600 kg
> BALLAST = 2400 kg
> FRESH WATER TANKS = 250 Lt
> FUEL TANKS = 100 Lt
> ENGINE POWER Volvo Penta S drive
> SAIL AREA UPWIND = 100 sqm
> Gennaker : 165 sqm
> 
> The fuel tankage seems not much but who needs an engine with a boat like this? 100 sqm upwind to 4600kg? Jesus, do you had a look at the B/D ratio of this boat? With all the ballast on a bulb at 2.7m? and with a considerable beam. This boat will not only sail with as little as 3 or 4K wind ( going over wind speed) as it will be able to go upwind in a gale like a rocket pointing like a devil. That is a STIFF boat
> 
> they say about it:
> 
> *Italian design and style
> * and I can only agree and I will add, at its best.
> 
> and I am wasting to much time on this but I had to share this one, what a boat
> 
> ....


Paulo,

Ceccarelli was the designer for the Azuree line of Turkish boatyard Sirena Marine. Maybe you're confusing the name with Claudio Maletto. I did like the "chiseled" look of the Azurees. The Azuree 40 is posted on page 109 of this thread, same page as the first renderings of the GS39. Don't know how the yard has done, but the lines of Azurees were provocative. I remember a video of a 40 heeling and stalling into the wind. If the helmsman slipped, he was going to slide 10 feet down! I'm still very suspect of those superwide sterns, unless your boat is a BeneSense and doesn't heel because of its SA/D. 

Cheers,

Hans


----------



## PCP

*Elan 400*

Surprise surprise, that Elan 400 interior is better than what it looks on the photos. Definitively it looks better than the one of the Dehler 41 (but not as good as the one of the Dehler 38). On the outside the boat looks smashing, hull included.

I like it a lot and this one is probably going to be a very good upwind boat. A boat with a moderate beam, a big ballast, 2.40 of draft, a torpedo keel and 33% of B/D will also be a stiff boat and the hull looks just right. And the design of the transom seems to be designed in a way to give it added stability form downwind.


















































































The shortcoming comes with a relatively small galley. The boat has only a 3 cabin version and it is a shame. With a bigger storage space, occupying par of the starboard aft cabin, the rest could be used to expand that small galley.

In that regard that, the Salona 41 is much better, with a bigger galley, and a bigger salon, specially on the 2 cabin version.










360 view - Salona Yachts

That's true that it has one more 1 ft but it is also true that both boats cost about the same.

I hope that they will understand that a 2 cabin boat with a bigger galley will have a much bigger cruising potential and propose a 2 cabin version because that hull is just beautiful and those two rudders will offer an added advantage in what regards control.

I will be certainly very curious to see if the sail-tests will confirm the sailing potential that seems to be a promise on that boat.

....


----------



## PCP

*Re: Neo 400: What a boat*



HMoll said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Ceccarelli was the designer for the Azuree line of Turkish boatyard Sirena Marine. Maybe you're confusing the name with Claudio Maletto. I did like the "chiseled" look of the Azurees. The Azuree 40 is posted on page 109 of this thread, same page as the first renderings of the GS39. Don't know how the yard has done, but the lines of Azurees were provocative. I remember a video of a 40 heeling and stalling into the wind. If the helmsman slipped, he was going to slide 10 feet down! I'm still very suspect of those superwide sterns, unless your boat is a BeneSense and doesn't heel because of its SA/D.


Hi Hans,

You are right, Claudio Maletto is the designer of the GS39 and of the new GS 43. I was induced in error because Ceccarelli was saying that the Neo 400 was designed by the same team that designed the 39 and I did not think.

Ceccarelli was referring this baby when he talked about the 39:




























Ceccarelli designed the "Mascalzone Latino" one of the Italian America's cup monohuls also the entire line of Azuree and Rimar and many other boats (he is only young on its designs ).

Fact is that on the Rimar designs and on the Azuree 40 I don't like the B/D ratio he uses neither the AVS of those boats that is related with that.

On those super wide sterns, as you say, it is better you have something to hold on, or, like the Pogo, have a ruder position away from the stern and more on the center of the boat (where the boat is not so beamy) and also it is better to check the stability curve in what regards AVS. With all that form stability the boat does not need a lot of ballast to sail but needs it to provide reserve stability. The Pogo 12.50 has a good reserve stability and a good AVS, the Azuree 40 has only an acceptable one.

Some more drawings from the Neo 400:




























I love that last version, the "Loft" one. Very interesting and one that goes with the boat modernity. The boat seems to have lot's of storage aft (from the outside) so it is possible that it will even be a functional one in what regards storage.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elan 400*

Regarding hew Elan 400 and its hull, take a look at these pictures:



















Look at how hull chine is high near the transom and look to that slightly big rounded surface that goes there to the underwater center of the hull. Ker was the first to develop this type of hulls and even if not as marked as on ker boats its meaning its clear. This boat is designed to sail upwind with more heel than the average modern boat.

The hull max resistance to heeling (hull form stability) will be produced when all that gently curved lateral surface (from the chine to the center of the boat) is all on the water, with the boat with 20/25º of heel. Than to continue to heel that chine has to be also on the water, offering added resistance. As I said most boats with chines work the same way but the max resistance happens at a much lower angle.

That is so on this (and Ker boats) to assure that to the max hull form stability corresponds a big ballast stability, that as we know is obtained with heeling.

Sydney 43:










Elan 400:










The Elan 400 has a big draft, all weight in a torpedo and a high B/D ratio and that means power at considerable angles of heeling with more power for that hull form also with a considerable heel.

This boats has a moderate beam and is not the type of boats that needs immediately a considerable heeling to sail (narrow beam) but it is the type of boat that goes to 20º and there will be stiff as a rock. I like it

That's why I have said from the beginning that this hull has nothing to do with with the one from the Elan 350:










That will put is chine on the water with considerably less heel.

....


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> Hi- PCP ?what is the wooden boat under construction. ?Is it edge nailed strip plank on laminated frame. ?Is it out of Lundenburg


Hi,

Sorry, did not saw your post. I think it is a traditional boat, not strip planking. Has I said, old photo and I don't remember but I would say that it was made in US or on the North of Europe, including UK, the only places that maintained a tradition on traditional wood boat building.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



HMoll said:


> ... I'm watching the live feed of the VG first finish, and there is not even 8,000 people watching. I am surprised by such a low number.
> Hans


Did you notice that they have different numbers on the English feed and on the French one? I think you are talking about the English one. Some days ago I was surprised by the huge difference in the numbers between the two. I cannot recall but maybe 100 times more? I guess that is the difference that separates the interest of the French Public for offshore solo racing and the rest of the world.

That's why it is possible to be a professional sailor in France and get budgets from sponsors for racing while it is very difficult in most other places.



PCP said:


> ..
> Meanwhile Jean-Pierre is looking for more clement conditions near the Portuguese coast but the truth is that he will get 30K winds when he passes Finisterra cape. I hope it will turn out alright for him. *30K on the Biscay is not a pleasant prospect even with a keel *


I guess that Jean-Pierre thinks about the same and instead of tryng to do the Biscay with +30K he took refuge on a cove on the Basque coast, will wait there for 24 hours or so till the gale passes and then he can do it safely to the finish.

It is nice to see that this guys are not only great sailors but also prudent sailors that know very well what is an acceptable risk and what is not.

That is not strange to me, when I raced motorcycles I found out that racers, even if they seem to be doing crazy things to the outside spectators, took always safety in a much higher regard than the casual motorcycle rider.





Replay: Alex Thomson's finish _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## distantshores

Beaching a boat - how to dry out.

WARNING - This video contains gorgeous images from the Bahamas and may cause you to want to quit everything and sail there!

This was shot on our previous Southerly - a 42 footer which we dried out a number of times in the 16,000 miles we sailed her.


----------



## distantshores

Getting off the beach. Remote Bahamas with the Southerly 42 Swing-Keel sailboat.






I realize that there are a number of sailboats that can theoretically do this, but not sure how many people have actually tried it?

This was one of our first attempts and it worked fine. It allowed us to stay in a shallow and very protected area where there wasn't room to swing at anchor at low tide.


----------



## Melrna

My question is when you beach a boat, does it scrape off the bottom paint? Also how does the rudder not get damaged?


----------



## distantshores

Very soft bottom paints will rub off so we use the harder formulations - in Europe Cruiser Uno and we will try SeaHawk Hard when I apply more next week in Saint Martin.

As in the video you should not beach on a rocky shore or there could be damage. Look for a sandy bottom...


----------



## PCP

*How not to beach a boat*






And they got away with it, but that is an aluminium boat.

Paul, thanks for posting


----------



## PCP

PCP said:


> ... I think it is a traditional boat, not strip planking. Has I said, old photo and I don't remember but I would say that it was made in US or on the North of Europe, including UK, the only places that maintained a tradition on traditional wood boat building.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Ok, I have found out, it is a UK boat and a production one

A spirit 54:

































http://www.spirityachts.com/spirityachts_54_ss.htm

...


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: How not to beach a boat*



PCP said:


> And they got away with it, but that is an aluminium boat.
> 
> Paul, thanks for posting


Incredible :hothead. 
There may be even more completely stupid ideas, but this one should hit the top list in the "incompetent sailor" ranking.

Regards,

Eric


----------



## hannah2

*Re: How not to beach a boat*



EricKLYC said:


> Incredible :hothead.
> There may be even more completely stupid ideas, but this one should hit the top list in the "incompetent sailor" ranking.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Eric


Looks like a boys day out for a sail. A bit too much beer, no wine they are French. It is sad, they have such a nice boat but looks like no harm done and hopefully they were able to sleep it off in deeper water.


----------



## PCP

*Some incredible pictures: Bowman*

Some of the best sailing pictures I have ever seen, just great:


----------



## PCP

*Re: Halberg Rassy 412*



Jeff_H said:


> Paulo, we are not in disagreement. You are reacting in this case to colloquial English, in which the term 'may be' is intended to acknowledge the "given's" before addressing the contrasting point. The use of the term 'may be' in my sentence was not meant to suggest that the hull, structure and rig of the Halberg Rassey 412 was not structurally suited to offshore.
> 
> You are right. I was trying to use the contrast in layout between the two and three cabin layout, as an example of why a boat may be capable of going offshore, but not necessarily optimized for going offshore.
> 
> I was not intending to comment on the specifics of how this boat was marketed, but more on how I think that companies should think about their products and market them fairly. My point is that I have no problem with a company building a boat which is clearly biased towards simple coastal cruising in terms of trading off storage for other amenities. My only point is that when a company does that, it needs to be clear in its marketing that this version of the model is not as optimized for offshore cruising as it might be.
> ...
> The point is not to criticize this particular boat. She looks well constructed and suitable for her intended use. My point that I was trying to make is that there is a next step to optimizing a boat like this for offshore cruising which frankly does not appear to have been done here.
> 
> And that goes to the heart of the frequent conversations about the difference between being offshore capable vs what makes an ideal offshore yacht, vs what makes an ideal distance cruiser.
> 
> Jeff


First of all let me tell you that it is nice to have you as one of the contributors of this thread. Yes I agree with you. Halberg-Rassy is just a boat a bit better suited than most for offshore work not a purposely built boat for that and it is not advertised like that, it is more the global opinion regarding the boat that points that way and opinions can be misleading.

It is not a purposely built offshore boat but needs less alterations than a mass production cruiser to be adapted to it. I am not going to enter that discussion here (it has been discussed extensively elsewhere) but it is all about trade offs and compromises. A purposely built boat for offshore would have almost no openings, a small cockpit (even if the transom would be large) and a interior without much free space with lots of holding points, not to mention high stability.

A boat like that would be a very disagreeable boat to live in nice places, at anchor or at the marina. Even the ones that do a lot of voyaging pass 90% of the time in Coastal conditions or at anchor enjoying life so in fact a maximized offshore boat only makes sense for the kind of guys that want to circumnavigate non stop. There are some but they are a tiny minority.

There are in the market some boats more adapted to offshore work than the Halberg-Rassy, boats that are intended for voyaging and most of them are by obvious reasons aluminum boats and one of the better is hanna's boat, the Boreal. But even this one is a compromise and it is not maximized for offshore work. If it was the boat would be gloomy and not agreeable for living, as the Boreal is.

The HR and the XC yachts are just very agreeable boats to live in, made for enjoying life, with a very good stability (way better than the average), boats suited for coastal cruising and also for crossing oceans, boats made for extensive cruising (if one chooses a model with the adequate number of cabins to have storage) but not purposely built offshore boats neither boats designed for cruising in uncharted waters or high latitude sailing.

Regarding sailing in remote places boats like the Boreal, the Allures or the OVNI are better suited and it is not by accident that such an experienced navigator as Jimmy Cornell had chosen an OVNI has its last boat, having tried almost everything in his several circumnavigations:






Even if he said that the OVNI was the best offshore voyage boat that he had sailed I am quite sure if at that time they were available he would prefer a Boreal or an Allures to the OVNI. In fact he says wonders about the Allures.

Both the Allures and the Boreal have a better stability compared to the OVNI. Maybe that's why they are making a new one on OVNI, a boat that is radically different from the traditional line. The boat seems just great. I am very curious about that one

Best regards

Paulo


----------



## distantshores

Here is some video we shot "mid-atlantic" on our recent crossing with the ARC. Rough sailing downwind showing the waves nicely.

Southerly 49
Lagoon 56 Cat






We are busy editing the final footage for our television series "Distant Shores"
Distant Shores Home


----------



## PCP

*Cruising ressources*

Besides Pilot guides I use three basic ones at least before fine tuning. Maybe you guys have more suggestions?

One is the "World Cruising and Sailing Wiki", made by all cruisers and that is becoming big and very useful.

World Cruising and Sailing Wiki - a Cruising Guide on the World Cruising and Sailing Wiki

The "old" noonsite is also a reliable source of information:

http://www.noonsite.com/

And in what regards interesting places, the best come on the World Heritage site:

UNESCO World Heritage Centre - World Heritage List

Like many, I am preparing summer cruising so if you guys know of more great sites that provide cruising information for sailors on the net, please post


----------



## PCP

*OVNI 365 in the Artic*

Since we are talking about beachable boats, here some nice Videos of an OVNI sailing at 80º North:


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And while Jean Pierre with his boat without a keel waits probably more 12 hours to the 10m waves and 40K winds to clear Biscay, while attempting to make it in 4th place, take a look at the last week of the race and the Kid's victory. This guy is going to make sail even more popular. He is young and cute: French girls have found a new idol.

On the crowd that waits him we can see a bunch of girls with a sheet saying: François marry me!!!





Vendée Globe 2012 - Week 12 Highlights _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## Faster

Gotta love the European response to and interest in events like this.. if only, on this side of the pond...

Jeez... this kid is younger than our son!...


----------



## PCP

*Linjett 34*

A new boat from Linjett and as all the others beautiful if a bit conservative, fast, stiff, with luxurious interiors and ....expensive. Pity we cannot have it all and cheap.

Kind of a perfect cruisers if that's the size you want and the taste is a conservative one. Have a look:

































Specifications:

LOA 10.66 m
Waterline length 9.30 m
Width 3.45 m
Draft 1.84 m
Displacement 5.5 t
Ballast 2.2 t
Main 37.0 sqm
Genoa 150% 37.0 sqm
Jib 22.5 sqm

...


----------



## Jeff_H

*Re: Linjett 34*



PCP said:


> A new boat from Linjett and as all the others beautiful if a bit conservative, fast, stiff, with luxurious interiors and ....expensive. Pity we cannot have it all and cheap.Specifications:
> 
> LOA 10.66 m
> Waterline length 9.30 m
> Width 3.45 m
> Draft 1.84 m
> Displacement 5.5 t
> Ballast 2.2 t
> Main 37.0 sqm
> Genoa 150% 37.0 sqm
> Jib 22.5 sqm
> 
> ...


What strikes me about the Linjett, is that appears to be well constructed, nicely finished but with very dated hull form that is loaded with gimmicks like the under deck jib sheets or the power winches which seem out of place on a 'performance cruiser' of this size.

It is also quite heavy for its length and a bit undercanvassed. Looking at the sailing clip, it appears to have adequate stabilty, but is not especially stiff (as naval architects and yacht designers use that term in the States).

Boats like that are a bit of a puzzle. That hullform is something you might expect out of the mid-1980's and there are lots of mid 1980's boats around with similar hullforms (The 35' Wauquiez Pretorien comes to mind). That period was not a highpoint in yacht design. But for whatever the reason, the Linjett used that hull form but has gone through and updated the rig proportion and deck hardware.

It is a bit of a mystery to me.

Jeff


----------



## APP Mode

It is the first time that i heard about Linjett , do you know the average prices? they look like the same quality as the SCANYACHT.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Linjett 34*



Jeff_H said:


> What strikes me about the Linjett, is that appears to be well constructed, nicely finished but with very dated hull form that is loaded with gimmicks like the under deck jib sheets or the power winches which seem out of place on a 'performance cruiser' of this size.
> 
> It is also quite heavy for its length and a bit undercanvassed. Looking at the sailing clip, it appears to have adequate stabilty, but is not especially stiff (as naval architects and yacht designers use that term in the States).
> 
> Boats like that are a bit of a puzzle. That hullform is something you might expect out of the mid-1980's and there are lots of mid 1980's boats around with similar hullforms (The 35' Wauquiez Pretorien comes to mind). That period was not a highpoint in yacht design. But for whatever the reason, the Linjett used that hull form but has gone through and updated the rig proportion and deck hardware.
> 
> It is a bit of a mystery to me.
> 
> Jeff


This is not a slow or old designed boat. I make mine the words that were used to describe the boat when it was presented by the magazine "yacht" to its readers:

* "A Modern but traditional yacht the Linjett 34 relies on simplicity of operation and consistent adaptation to the waters of the Scandinavia Archipelago.

The shipyard of North of Stockholm developed a concept line of fast sailing yachts. The new 34, designed as the others by Mats Gustafsson is no exception. The 34 follows in design the 37 and 40 foot big sisters with a more modern hull shape a wider transom a more efficient keel and relatively more sail area ...."*

Regarding the sailing potential, when the boat was presented on a popular Swedish sail blog race oriented someone remember the very good sailing performance of the previous mode, the Linjett 33:

*"Remember the Ornörunt 2008 race where a Linjett 33 in light breeze 2-4 m / s tacked on all "new" racers Prima 38, Ridas 31, Melges24, first 36.7, First 27.7, Arcona400, Dehler 29 and Dehler 36 . A small express was well the only one that hung on reasonably, Linjetten sailed fantastically well ...As an all-round boat the Linjett is a sailboat that does not require eight men on the side for going fast."*

And that's why I say (as he is saying) thst the Linjett 33 is a stiff boat and by Stiff I mean what most Sailing NA mean by stiff, including David Gerr director of one of the main American NA schools: A boat that can carry a lot of sail area regarding its wet surface, a powerful boat.

Regarding the boat being heavy I don't think so. For instance a Salona 34, a light boat weights 4900 kg, the Linjet weights 5500 but if you consider only the weight of the boat without Ballast the Salona weights 3500 and the Linjett 33 weights 3300kg. In fact while the Salona has a ballast of 1400kg (B/D 29%) while the Linjett has 2200kg (B/D 40%).

If he consider that the Linjett is more beamier than the Salona (3.45m to 3.35m) and has more form stability, the superior added RM provided by the much superior B/D is a measure of how stiff the Linjett is, considering that the Salona 34 is not a tender boat.

Regarding performance the Lynjett is probably just overall a bit slower than the Arcona 340 and that means a fast cruiser, even a performance cruiser. I believe that if overall it will be a bit slower, on a blow upwind that big stiffness will probably make it faster on that particular situation.

http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/yacht_bootstests_salona_34.pdf



















I don't think that the hull " is very dated". It is a typical hull of a boat typed upwind and the shape is not very different from the one of the J122 or the It 10.98, both modern and very efficient boats with modern hulls. Yes it is a traditional line but one that is followed by many contemporary performance cruisers. I would not call it very dated.

Regarding the electric winch it is certainly an option that the owner of that particular boat required. Regarding the under deck jib sheets, it is a common feature in almost all modern cruisers, particularly performance cruisers and has besides the visual advantage to present a clean boat, permits you to work in the boom or at the head of the mainsail without stepping on the lines or trip on them.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

APP Mode said:


> It is the first time that i heard about Linjett , do you know the average prices? they look like the same quality as the SCANYACHT.


I would say that the quality is slightly superior regarding Scanyacht or at least its used value is. This is from all Swedish boats the one that retains better its value. It's an old brand that started in the 70's.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Linjett 34 sail performance*

I looked a bit better at the Linjett sail performance and the best way to do that is through the handicap rating tables.

On Sweden they use an handicap called Lys. *The bigger the rating the faster the boat*.

I found the Lynjett 34 rating and some other known boats, American and European, not many because they race mostly Swedish boats. I guess I was right in saying that the Lynjett 34 is a bit slower than the Arcona 340 and in saying that the Lynjett is a fast sailboat, a performance cruiser.

*The Lynjett 34 rating is between 1.23 and 1.25*

Comparing with old performance cruisers or modern mass production cruisers:

C40 - 1.20.... HR 36 - 1.15....Dufour 385 - 1.21.....Arcona 36 - 1.22....

Najad 371 - 1.09....Sweden Yachts 390 - 1.24.....Swan 36 S&S - 1.13....

Swan 371-1.20 .....Swan 411 - 1.25....C&C 33 - 1.13....

Comparing with modern performance cruisers:

Dehler 34 (2002) -1.25....Arcona 340 - 1.29.....First 36,7 - 1.29....J/92 - 1.26.....J/105 - 1,29

S/Y Springer: Ny Linjett 34 med estimert LYS på 1,23 -1,25

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LYS_(sailing)

...


----------



## PCP

*Pirates and Pirate Ships.*

Yes Pirates  for this Sunday some *great documentary movies* about Pirates and Pirate ships.











and if you want to own a Pirate ship, this one is for sale:






After seeing that I saw that a lot if guys like to build their own pirate ship. They say ot os for the kids but I I guess they dream too much with pirates
















Unfortunately a real replica ended like this last year:






and you have to consider that these "boats" are not easy to handle:


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Pirates and Pirate Ships.*



PCP said:


> Unfortunately a real replica ended like this last year:


But La Grace is been repaired now.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.495508080499321.130243.129621207088012&type=1


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pirates and Pirate Ships.*



DiasDePlaya said:


> But La Grace is been repaired now.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.495508080499321.130243.129621207088012&type=1


Nice Though boat!!!

It was really a pity to lose her. She was built only a couple of years ago:






La Grace - holiday on the pirate ship

*"La Grace is a replica of a brig from 18th century. The original ship of Augustine Herman (Augustin Heřman in Czech) bore this name (which roughly translates as "Graceful") during merchant and exploratory travels around Europe, United States, Caribbean and across the Atlantic Ocean. La Grace was also renowned for her corsair activities. Especially well-known is her victory over two Spanish barques carrying sugar, tobacco and wine near the coast of Guatemala....

Its construction is based on blueprints published in 1768 by Swedish Admiral Fredrik Henrik af Chapman in the book Architectura navalis mercatoria. Chapman is credited as the first naval architect who laid the foundations of the modern shipbuilding while relying on precise blueprints."*

La Grace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Jpk 10.80*

Announced a new racer from JPK, the new 10.80, that will join the 10.10 that is one of the most successful racers of the last years, on IRC3 and on the Transquadra (solo or duo Transat). A dual proposal racer, full crew or short crew, obviously with different rigging options.

The boat follows the lines of the JPK 10.10, is also a Jacques Valer design and has a very interesting feature clearly pointed to solo racing: the possibility of having two different interior positions (according with the tack) where is possible to have a good look out, lateral and frontal.



















Some dimensions:

Lenght: 10.80m
Beam: 3.65
Weight: 4800Kg
Draft: 2.20m
Sail area: 72Sqm

They don't give the ballast but that weight on a 10.80m race boat points to a considerable ballast.

Given the success of Jacques Valer on all his racing boats the chances are that we are looking to another winner. The boat looks good, at least to me

Talking about the JPK 10.10, look at this one winning one more race:










That's ZULU and the guys sailed it at 24K. 24K on a 10m boat....that's fast
*CHAPEAU*:


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Good and really bad news:

Jean-Pierre resumed racing, has good weather ahead and I believe he will have no problem in finishing in 4th place.

Javier Sanso Capsized and is waiting rescue. Not much details about it but I guess he lost the keel.

*This Sunday morning 3rd Feburary around 1049hrs UTC two distress beacons of ACCIONA 100% EcoPowered, skippered by Spanish solo sailor Javier Sanso which is racing in the Vendée Globe non stop solo round the world race were triggered. The alarms were received at 1052hrs UTC.

At 1049hrs UTC the boat was positioned at 31° 59.00 N 27 26.24 W, so 500 miles west of Madeira and 360 miles south of the Azores island of Sao Miguel

Weather conditions in the area that Sanso was sailing were a NE'ly wind of 15kts. The boat was racing upwind in a moderate trade winds swell. Prior to the incident all was reported to be well on board, only minutes before Sanso had e-mailed a daily report to Race Direction.
....
Immediately Race Direction in Les Sables d'Olonne, the MRCC Ponta Delgada (Azores) and CROSS Griz Nez tried to contact the IMOCA Open 60 ACCIONA but received no reply.

MRCC Ponta Delgada then requested an aerial reconnaissance of the area by plane. A C295 plane was on zone by 1630hrs UTC. On arrival they found Javier Sanso in his liferaft. Sanso made hand signals and smoke signals (smoke hand flare) next to his capsized boat.

At 1650hrs UTC this information was confirmed to Race Direction by MRCC Ponta Delgada.

At 1750hrs UTC an EH101 helicopter was dispatched from the Azores island of Terceira heading to the zone to effect the rescue of Javier Sanso and is expected to be in the area by 2300hrs UTC.*


----------



## PCP

*A little quizze:*

It is made by a big factory, it is a recent boat and it has between 45 and 50ft. What the hell is this?









































































a HINT: they really need to hire a top interior designer and a very good NA would help too but I guess that you can see that


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## PCP

*Drascombe: Don't need to be rich for go cruising and having fun.*

This post is dedicated to the younger guys that follows this thread.

One of the characteristics of younger guys is that normally they don't have much money. When I was younger that applied to me also. So I bought an old boat, recovered it and went cruising. The boat had no interior and I had only a compass. That did no prevent me to explore a good part of the Atlantic Portuguese coast with it and it is not an easy coast. Most of all I had great fun.

Well, you can do the same, Egmont Friedl has. He picked a famous inexpensive open boat, a Drascombe and just circled Italy, I mean all of it. It seems great fun to me.

Of course, first you need to learn how to sail properly and navigate without instruments, a kind of an almost lost art.

some pictures:



















the story:

Mediterraneo

And he is not the only guy going faraway on that little boat:











A better look at the Drascombe long boat:






Drascombe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Javier Sanso was picked up at the middle of a black night by a Portuguese Navy hellicopter.

He is well and don't know quite well what happened. He heard a big noise, the boat heeled violently he was thrown overboard, the boat capsized (but not sink). He swam to the boat, pulled (from the water) the liferaft and released a mayday. He was rescued some hours later. That explains why he could not contact the organization.

Le récit de Javier Sansó - Vendée Globe 2012-2013

They are going to recover the boat. I bet that was another keel that was gone. Definitively they have to go top that solution proposed by almost all the designers regarding all boasts having the same keel, as a way to rapidly improve the reliability of the system.

Curiously it was not what the boat had of innovative that failed: The Acciona was the only boat that was making the race using only renewable energies and it seemed that it was doing quite well regarding that. It is possible that on the next edition all boats will be like that or at least there are some competitors interested in that. It was to be a rule for all otherwise the boats that use the system would be penalized by extra weight.

That would be very important as a research field for systems that would be suitable for cruising boats also.


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## EricKLYC

*Re: A little quizze:*



PCP said:


> It is made by a big factory, it is a recent boat and it has between 45 and 50ft. What the hell is this?
> 
> a HINT: they really need to hire a top interior designer and a very good NA would help too but I guess that you can see that


Hunter ?


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## PCP

*Re: A little quizze:*



EricKLYC said:


> Hunter ?


Well, I guess the Hunters woulds also benefit from the work of a top Na and a good interior designer. The hull design seems not to be worst than the ones from the Hunter but the interiors, in what regards design or simply an educated taste, are really awful and mostly on the details. The hulls have some resemblance with the ones from Varianta.

The interior give some clues. Look at the "decoration details".

A big factory does not mean that it is a known one, at least for us

...


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## PCP

*Vendee globe: Rescue of Sanso*






He was quite faraway from Açores, at about 350Nm, so first they located him with an airplane and then pick him up with an helicopter.

Yes, he lost the keel, we can see that on the airplane passage.

...


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## EricKLYC

*Re: Vendee Globe*



PCP said:


> Good and really bad news:
> 
> Jean-Pierre resumed racing, has good weather ahead and I believe he will have no problem in finishing in 4th place.
> 
> Javier Sanso Capsized and is waiting rescue. Not much details about it but I guess he lost the keel.


Javier has been very professionally rescued by the Portugese coastguards. He was airlifted by a SAR helicopter, operating at the limit of its autonomy. The skipper spent only 12 hours in his liferaft and is now sound and well. Nice job, I'd say !





Le sauvetage de Javier Sanso _par VendeeGlobeTV_

It's clear once again the keel has been lost. According to his first declarations there was no UFO involved, so the debate about more regulation will probably rise once again. When taking a reef, there was a shock, the boat immediately turned over and he fell into the water. I think he was lucky to be able to reach the stern, then activate and board his liferaft.
Meanwhile, his rescue is a big relief .

And J-P Dick is about to cross the finish line, also without his keel .

Best regards,

Eric


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## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe*



EricKLYC said:


> ...
> 
> It's clear once again the keel has been lost. According to his first declarations there was no UFO involved, so the debate about more regulation will probably rise once again. When taking a reef, there was a shock, the boat immediately turned over and he fell into the water. I think he was lucky to be able to reach the stern, then activate and board his liferaft.
> Meanwhile, his rescue is a big relief .
> 
> Eric


Yes, very lucky. I is probably the only guy that has to be grateful for the boat to capsize.

He was thrown overboard when the boat heeled violently and only after that, some moments later, the boat capsized. If the boat had resumed sailing without the keel, even if for some minutes, it would have been very difficult or completely impossible for him to reach the boat and he would be domed.

Regards

Paulo


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## EricKLYC

*Re: Vendee globe: Rescue of Sanso*



PCP said:


> He was quite faraway from Açores, at about 500kms, so first they located him with an airplane and then pick him with an helicopter.
> 
> Yes, he lost the keel, we can see that on the airplane passage.


It seems we covered the same topic simultaneously, Paulo .
This only shows how big a relief this rescue operation is for everyone.

Also J-P Dick is out of trouble now, let's keep our fingers crossed for Mike Golding (also keel problems) and Tanguy De Lamotte (destroyed starboard rudder and port centreboard, taking water).

Best regards,

Eric


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## PCP

*Sundbeam 24.2*

Lately we have been talking much about Sunbeam and with good reason. the Austrian brand that had always made quality Yachts had recently changed the focus from very traditional and conservative yachts to a more modern approach.

The new boats maintain the old quality but they are also fast and nice.

Here the 24.2, a day-sailer/week-end cruiser, recently tested by PBO:






http://www.sunbeam.at/fileadmin/user_upload/downloads/RZ_Sunbeam24-2012.pdf


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## hannah2

Thanks again Paulo for all the interesting boats you lets us all become aware of.

What do you know about Elvestron sails? We are considering their radial cut sails for our modern designed boat. They have some really amazing footage of their factory on youtube that we have watched.

We have been always into some of Americas best custom sail makers in the past for our previous traditional boats. Thought folks would like to see their websites as they do incredible hand work. Now we are interested in more modern designed sails to complement the new boat. We have to make up our minds soon on a sail maker in Europe.

Schattauer sails Schattauer Sails Inc. The history of Schattauer sails goes all the way back to Germany and clipper ships.

Hawsey sails Port Townsend Sails - new sails and repair for all sailboats

Cheers


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## olianta

Hi!
This is my first post, though for the last several months I regularly follow this thread (since the 1st page) and find it the more interesting and educational than many other threads I have tried to follow. Though for the time being I am just a coastal single-handed day sailor on my Etap 21i, thanks to the postings on this thread and Paulo's posts in other threads on other forums, I know what type will be my next boat when I decide I have enough time for cruising and find rhe money for the appropriate boat.

Referring back to the Dusseldorf boat show, I would like Paulo to tell us his first hand impressions of the Sly 38 (apart from what he has already posted before the beginning of the show). 

Rumen


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## PCP

*Sails*



hannah2 said:


> ...
> What do you know about Elvestron sails? We are considering their radial cut sails for our modern designed boat. They have some really amazing footage of their factory on youtube that we have watched.
> 
> We have been always into some of Americas best custom sail makers in the past for our previous traditional boats. Thought folks would like to see their websites as they do incredible hand work. Now we are interested in more modern designed sails to complement the new boat. We have to make up our minds soon on a sail maker in Europe.
> ...


I had top cruising Elvestron sails on the Bavaria 36. In 2002 they were called "Ocean" and were sandwich sails with mylar inside. They worked well for 6 years but the main got some mold inside and that is the problem with sandwich sails. I made about 15000nm with them and they retained a good shape. For me it was time for new sails when I sold the boat in 2008 but I think that the guy to whom I sold the boat still has the same sails.

Last summer on my "new" boat I blew two kevlar/mylar race sails in a blow (8/9B) and even if the sails flogged a little I was surprised with the fragility of those sails compared with my previous ones. Later I talked with the sailmaker that repaired the sails (a Greek) that said to that for long range cruising and for many months of use a year there is only one material: Dracon.

Even if he said to me that he also made race sails I was not convinced but in Italy I spoke with the owner of loft specialized in racing sails, a good one, that said to me exactly the same thing and this guy does his own laminates so it is quite good. This time I was convinced

I learned also that there are different types of Dracon. He said to me that Elvstrom sails were not as good as his own but I don't know if it is true or not. It is a very nice guy and I rely enjoy his honesty. He took my sails again for doing a better repair and showed to me that I had an inappropriate fit on my jibe and took it for correction, all at a price that it seemed more than fair to me. This guy is the one that makes the standard sails for Comet yachts besides racing sails for many Italian racers.

The site is this one:

Veleria Speedsails

Regarding Elvstrom I would chose Dracon strong warp.

http://www.elvstromsails.com/images/stories/downloads/ELV_Matrix_2012.jpg

Besides Elvstrom another sailmakers that are going strong are:

OneSails Sailmakers - The Next Generation of Sails

North Sails: The World's Leading Sailmaker

There are also good French sailmakers:

Voilerie Incidences, conception, fabricant de voiles pour bateaux de croisires, comptition, rgates, courses

Voilerie DELTA Voiles Montpellier, code D, genois, grand voile, spi, trinquette et gennaker sur emmagasineur, cruising et racing, réparation, voiles d'occasion

Regards

Paulo


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## hannah2

Thank you Paulo for all the info, I knew you would come through. I will owe you and the wife a seafood dinner and a good bottle of wine the way it is going. I will look through your info carefully and let you know how we went. I certainly will look into the Elvstrom HN Radials carefully. Though we have talked with folks who are serious cruisers and have had no problems after 2 years. I know on Morgans Cloud site they have discussed these cut sails and have also said they are 100% improved from the past and now last all most as long as Dacron but like we all know keep their shape longer than Dacron. 

But when spending all that money you want to know you are getting it right. We are willing to take some educated risk so we really do have the right sails for the boat.

Cheers

Steve


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## PCP

*Re: sails*

I guess two years will not be a problem but I want at least 6

Take a look at the sails of the Vendee Globe boats: The pictures I have seen of the mains show sails in pretty bad shape. Sure they maintain the shape but you can see delamination. I guess a Vendee Globe worth for about 3 years in what regards the use I give them, but not in what regards folding.

The real problem with laminated sails is when you fold them on the lazy bag and most of all when you reef them. They hate to be folded and they can sustain a limited number of folds before start to delaminate.

On the vendee globe they have the big advantage of having the sails always up and never on a lazy bag, except when reefed.

I confess I don't know much about the subject but a long talk with the owner of Speedsails (Miro) was very instructive. He sure knows a lot more than me.

I wanted to have performance sails, he is a specialist in laminated sails and even so he advised me against after inquiring about how much time I sail.

He said that if I really wanted the extra performance the best choice was the type of sails I had on the Bavaria, Sandwich sails (expensive sails). He makes them too but even so he says that nothing is as durable as a good Dracon sail. Have a look at his sandwich sails:

Veleria Speedsails

go to randa (mainsail), then to Randa structure cruising and then download " visualizza la Brochure" (download)

If you cannot find anybody that can deal with you on a personal basis and that you fell that can give you good advise, I will give you Miro's telephone number and I am sure that a good talk with him will put you on the right track. At least you will understand clearly what are the different options. He speaks very good English, I am sure he knows perfectly what he is talking about and he is honest.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Dusseldorf: Allures 45*

That was also a surprise. I knew very well Allures and I had visited the previous models so why the surprise?:

The quality of finish of the boat improved greatly to the point of being comparable to Swedish boats that not only are not aluminum boats but are more expensive. I was really impressed with the price and finish quality.

Allures were solid and well built but a bit rustic, like the OVNIS. Good quality around and a decent design but nothing special.

Your wife would not buy the previous model for its interior. Well, this one she will want it only for the interior quality in design and finish. Your wife will positively love it. I forecast a big increase in sales for Allures, a boat that is not only a good and fast sailboat (aluminum centerboarder) as have a better stability compared with the OVNI and one probably similar to the one from Boreal 44.

Have a good look at this interior:

Allures 45 - Allures Yachting






I really would like to have a look at a Boreal, one of the best boats in this category. Never saw one and it was not there. In some aspects it is an even more practical boat in what regards voyaging but I wonder if the quality of design and finish matches the one from Allures.

...


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## PCP

*Ice 62*

One of the things that seem to differentiate Italian millionaires from other millionaires is that they have a passion for fast sailing yachts. That makes them my preferred millionaires

Have a look at the insolent beauty of the new Ice 62, a Felci design. It's a carbon light and strong boat (only 14 000kg) and that reduced weight has not only to do with the high tech hull but also with a very modern lifting torpedo keel that when down gives it a 4m draft maximizing the effect of the ballast. That draft makes possible a relatively ballast (3 500kg) for the same generated RM that would require a much bigger one for a reasonable cruising draft.


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

And Jean Pierre Dick managed to bring back the boat home without a keel (the last 2500nm) and has welcomed has a winner. Big crowd saluting a great sailor and a great feat.





Les temps forts de l'arrivée de Jean-Pierre Dick _por VendeeGlobeTV_

*The Vendée Globe welcome afforded to fourth placed Jean-Pierre Dick by a huge and passionate crowd was one worthy of a race winner.... The skipper who is originally from Nice and only really took to the IMOCA class ten years ago left Les Sables d'Olonne 88 days ago as one of the favorites and returned one of the outstanding heroes.

Dick took disappointments in his stride but they took their toll on his overall performance.

First, he recalled, he lost a key small gennaker in the water - one which would have been his reaching workhorse in the South which forced him to re-think his strategy at times. Then he struggled with a jammed halyard hook which left him unable to set the optimum headsail for some time. He eventually climbed the mast of Virbac-Paprec 3 several times to free it but lost more miles. His problems were capped when he lost his keel on the evening of 21st Janaury.

And so his fourth place reflects the incredible tenacity of JP Dick. He concluded with a Chinese proverb:

"The goal is not in the goal but in the pathway." *


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## hannah2

*Re: Dusseldorf: Allures 45*



PCP said:


> That was also a surprise. I knew very well Allures and I had visited the previous models so why the surprise?:
> 
> The quality of finish of the boat improved greatly to the point of being comparable to Swedish boats that not only are not aluminum boats but are more expensive. I was really impressed with the price and finish quality.
> 
> Allures were solid and well built but a bit rustic, like the OVNIS. Good quality around and a decent design but nothing special.
> 
> Your wife would not buy the previous model for its interior. Well, this one she will want it only for the interior quality in design and finish. Your wife will positively love it. I forecast a big increase in sales for Allures, a boat that is not only a good and fast sailboat (aluminum centerboarder) as have a better stability compared with the OVNI and one probably similar to the one from Boreal 44.
> 
> Have a good look at this interior:
> 
> Allures 45 - Allures Yachting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really would like to have a look at a Boreal, one of the best boats in this category. Never saw one and it was not there. In some aspects it is an even more practical boat in what regards voyaging but I wonder if the quality of design and finish matches the one from Allures.
> 
> ...


Boreal has done an outstanding job over the last year with building their interior. When we first took a look it was just fine but they have opened up a new carpentry shop and I must say when we were over at Boreal in September the work was even better. That is coming from someone who owned a Mason44 with matched teak, mahogany, and Holly in the interior.

The new designs are much lighter and feeling more airy. That is a new and good concept with deck raised saloons. The sea berths are dark enough for good sleeping during the day when on passage. At our asking Boreal put more handholds in the interior especially around the galley area. We are also having the seat back over the centerboard for the salon table seats, just one more thing to hold on to while going forward in the interior.

I do not know if the interior matches the Allures but I'm sure the interior seaworthiness will be close. I have never been a fan of the European style galley instead of the old U shaped galley but I realize on a boat 44 feet it would be hard to have a raised salon and a U shaped galley. We will learn how to use the galley space properly while at sea. Cruising boats are always a compromise somewhere. But we are happy with how Boreal really works hard at pleasing our desires and needs. Truly outstanding so far I must say, That maybe hard to find in today's world in boat building. Only 5 months to go.

As for the sails we will make the right choice after much discussion with cruising friends and experts alike.

Thanks


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## APP Mode

*Re: Ice 62*



PCP said:


> One of the things that seem to differentiate Italian millionaires from other millionaires is that they have a passion for fast sailing yachts. That makes them my preferred millionaires
> 
> Have a look at the insolent beauty of the new Ice 62, a Felci design. It's a carbon light and strong boat (only 14 000kg) and that reduced weight has not only to do with the high tech hull but also with a very modern lifting torpedo keel that when down gives it a 4m draft maximizing the effect of the ballast. That draft makes possible a relatively ballast (3 500kg) for the same generated RM that would require a much bigger one for a reasonable cruising draft.


What is the website to see this model in detail? I tried to make a Google search, but i couldn't find out.


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## PCP

*Re: Ice 62*



APP Mode said:


> What is the website to see this model in detail? I tried to make a Google search, but i couldn't find out.


ice yachts | Ice Yachts

This is a very interesting shipyard not only because it is specialized in high tech construction but also because it is the first Shipyard that I know that at its birth is making not one boat but three and I don't mean the designs, they are actually building the boats:

The 60ft that I posted, a 80ft and a 44ft boat. Obviously they have already the boats sold

This is only possible because this is a re-foundation of a previous shipyard, already specialized in high end boats, the CN Yacht 2000 that has built many 60 and 80fts. Have a look:

Il cantiere

These are the other boats, first the 80ft, than the 44ft (both Felci designs):














































Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*RC 44 downwid*

Not properly a downwind boat the RC 44...but with lot's of wind the boat can go faster...and a bit like a submarine


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## Chimbatete

Sorry if its been posted but heres a DF32 passing what looks like a Pogo 50. No surprises but still nice to watch.


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## funjohnson

Quiz answer? Guessing an XC 45 or 50, but the port lights don't seem to be right. The styling on the bulkhead (padded white squares) is their design right?


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## PCP

*Chinese cruisers*



funjohnson said:


> Quiz answer? Guessing an XC 45 or 50, but the port lights don't seem to be right. The styling on the bulkhead (padded white squares) is their design right?


Nice of you to have tried. Most did no want to risk a guess. No, it it is quite the opposite. The Xc yachts are very expensive top of the range boats this one is a basic cheap boat:



PCP said:


> It is made by a big factory, it is a recent boat and it has between 45 and 50ft. What the hell is this?
> 
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> a HINT: they really need to hire a top interior designer and a very good NA would help too but I guess that you can see that


I guess that pillows and jar on the saloon would give a good hint but it seems that nobody noticed:

This is a CHINESE yacht. Till know they have been made smaller ones but know here they are, making big ones. This is a Farnova 48 and they have also a 52ft.

Farnova Yachts










But they are not the only ones there are even more interesting boats like the Hansheng Sealiner 46:










Bad quality you say? Well, they are the ones that make Passport and Outbound yachts

Who are these guys:

Founded in 1984 as Xiamen Fiberglass Boat Yard, Xiamen Hansheng Yacht Building Co.,Ltd. ... With more than 600 employees, 20 percent of whom are engineers and technicians, the factory has its main site covering an area of 40,000 square meters....

Yacht Building Department

We specialize in the manufacture of offshore sailing cruisers, motor yachts, racing boats. We are building completed yachts for Stevens Custom Yachts, *Passport Yachts and Outbound Yachts*. ..

Due to the high percentage of engineers and technicians, we are able to handle the complex systems of propulsion, plumbing and electrical associated with luxury yachts. ..

"Honesty, Creativity and Fine Workmanship" are our ideals. Our aim is to deliver the best and continue to improve, in line with international practice and to keep in step with the competition worldwide. We are sincerely looking for dealers and agencies all over the world.

So watch out if you buy an "American" top bluewater boat you are probably buying a Chinese boat and I do not mean only Outbound and Passport. For now the European Industry and in a lesser extent the American one is resisting but this guys are rely a menace and I would not be surprised if in 10 years we would have European brands building in China.

http://www.hanshengyacht.com/en/product.aspx

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Dragonfly 32*



Chimbatete said:


> Sorry if its been posted but heres a DF32 passing what looks like a Pogo 50. No surprises but still nice to watch.


Hi, long time without posting, welcome back

Yes it has been posted but that's a great video. I saw the Dragonfly 32 at Dusseldorf: What a great boat.

It has one of the clever interiors I have seen on a sailboat. The dealer saw me looking around and he guessed rightly that I was looking for the refrigerator and he said to me: "Looking for the refrigerator? See if you can find it".....and the truth is that I couldn't. Well it is hidden under the rug (literally). It is on the floor and it is BIG!!

Also the stairs slides effortlessly from one side to another, given passage to the back cabin or allowing space to work on the galley.

This is the best Dragonfly ever the one where they summarized all their vast experience doing fast performance cruisers.

I was very impressed, not my wife that said: "For that price you can have a real cruising boat"

The boat is like a toy, a fascinating one and a toy that can be used for cruising too. Big men's toy and an expensive one but one that I would love to have here for the winter days and short distance cruising.

http://www.trimarans.com/media/62099/df32 multihullsworld_df32test_july12.pdf






Regards

Paulo


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## nemier

Paulo,
What do you know about Japanese built yachts? I'm sure they must be building but I have not heard of any since the Yamahas and Fuji's.


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## PCP

nemier said:


> Paulo,
> What do you know about Japanese built yachts? I'm sure they must be building but I have not heard of any since the Yamahas and Fuji's.


Nothing..but I don't know if there is something to know about. Chinese seem to be much more into sailing than the Japanese. Remember they even had a boat on the last VOR and on the Mini class you have also a Chinois.

Japanese seem to me more on Motorboats and engines. I could not find on Japan boating Industry association a single sailboat builder.

Japan Boating Industry Association | Official WebSite | Full Members List

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Code8*

Lot's of new interesting racers/daysailers on Dusseldorf.

Among them this one:






It seems the boat won the first race it entered. Well, it looks very fast and I am sure it is very fast. It weights only 910kg and 62% of it is ballast

http://www.paugercarbon.com/images/stories/pdf/code8_brochure_eng.pdf

..


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## hannah2

Boy would I love to have that Code 8 here in the great Columbia Gorge to race in the Double Damned race. 42 mile race all down wind against 3 knots of river current. Winds on most race days 20 gusting over 40 and nothing to have consistent 30 plus knots and 6 foot standing waves. HRYC is the club we sail under here in my town of Hood River Oregon USA a very famous windsurfing area. I have raced at 50 knots wind, totally different than 50 knots on open ocean, the river is much more fun.

I think that code 8 would more than do the job.

Hope this link works, if not youtube HRYC Double Damned 2011 VID






Cheers


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## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

That is one of the things that makes this race special: The Public

Look how they have received the 5th, Jean Le Cam that finally finishes one Vendee Globe:





Jean Le Cam (SynerCiel) finish - Part 2 _por VendeeGlobeTV_

I will bet that the last, Alessandro, will have as many people waiting for him as Jean. On this race winning is tops, as in any other race, but just finish it is already great and spectators understand and appreciate that.


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## PCP

hannah2 said:


> Boy would I love to have that Code 8 here in the great Columbia Gorge to race in the Double Damned race. 42 mile race all down wind against 3 knots of river current. Winds on most race days 20 gusting over 40 and nothing to have consistent 30 plus knots and 6 foot standing waves. HRYC is the club we sail under here in my town of Hood River Oregon USA a very famous windsurfing area. I have raced at 50 knots wind, totally different than 50 knots on open ocean, the river is much more fun.
> 
> I think that code 8 would more than do the job.
> 
> Hope this link works, if not youtube HRYC Double Damned 2011 VID
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers


I had already saw some of those images but not that movie. Just fantastic.

What a race

Thanks for posting!

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

While we were away we ran into these guys fitting out this boat before heading down to Melbourne for the start of the Melbourne - Osaka two handed.










The Boat | Funnelweb

Mind you, no matter what they say .... in a pigs eye is this my idea of a good cruising boat.


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## PCP

tdw said:


> While we were away we ran into these guys fitting out this boat before heading down to Melbourne for the start of the Melbourne - Osaka two handed.
> 
> 
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> The Boat | Funnelweb
> 
> Mind you, no matter what they say .... in a pigs eye is this my idea of a good cruising boat.


And that make sense. You are 90% of the time in your boat at anchor, these guys seem to be 90% of their time in the boat sailing and some of that time racing. It would be expected that what fits your bill is not what fits their's. Let's accept what they say and that for them this is a surprisingly good cruising boat.

*It is a rare thing when a person can say, " if I was building another boat today I would build funnelweb all over again". She represents the culmination of twenty years of experience gained from living on, building and generally messing about in boats.

Working closely with Robert Hick, who is the designer and builder, we were able to launch a boat that has proven to be fast, responsive and a safe passage maker.

After having completed 26,000 miles she is currently being totally refitted in readiness for her next big adventure, the Melbourne to Osaka and Transpac races.

With five watertight bulkheads, and six water ballast tanks, her interior is small by comparison to other fifteen metre yachts but she is surprisingly comfortable for a crew of six.

Although a true racing boat she has also proven to be equally at home as a cruising boat on many of the return delivery trips from various races most notably on her return from Japan after the 2003 Melbourne to Osaka visiting many exotic pacific islands and giving her crew at the time some truly memorable experiences.*

The Boat | Funnelweb

In fact I know a guy (a very experienced sailor) that is circumnavigating with the family (young kids) on an adapted 40class racer. He chose that boat because it is fast, safe, has lots of space and is affordable comparing with it has to offer. Off course this makes only sense because he is most of the time sailing. He is not the only one that is doing extensive cruising and circumnavigating on an adapted 40class racer.

It seems crazy to you that someone can say that this sailboat is an interesting cruising boat and I understand. In fact that has to do with the way one uses the boat. Even for me that sail 30 or 40% of the time I am in the boat (counting night time) that is a too extreme boat for me in what regards interior coziness but I have no doubt that sail a lot more time than me.

Some in this thread, like Eric, choose for cruising, boats that can be compared with that one (even if more cruising friendly) and they are not used for racing as that one is also used.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New Salona 33:*





































the boat looks well even if the option of the two wheels seems pretty ridiculous on a 33ft boat but I guess that has to do with what part of the public want.

But this is a strange boat, I mean it is too close from the 35ft and I bet this boat as to do mainly with racing in handicap. It is possible that this boat is just a shortened 35ft. The Dimensions are much similar and only the Overall length is very different (10.40 to 9.99m).

In what regards water length the difference is very small (9.16 to 9.04m) the Beam is almost identical (3.36 to 3.35m) the same with weight (5300 to 4950kg) ballast (1200/1500 to 1100/1480) and sail area (69.50 to 69.50sqm).

The good news is that the boat is not as expensive. They announce a nice price for the first boats: 79.900 euros.

http://salonanordic.se/wp-content/uploads/Leaflet-Salona-33.pdf

...


----------



## EricKLYC

Some of you are awaiting pictures and video's about our first experiences with the Pogo 12.50. 
Please excuse me for the clicks, I didn't succeed to obtain embedded codes for this material .

Presentation:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/DlOGZGxXfS/DSC_0005.JPG
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/7-37mMI_ab/DSC_0002.JPG

Really flat bottom...
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/WyAHEkoYLQ/berging.JPG

Upwind, still nice & easy, but remember what Paulo teached us about wave drag. Believe me, he's right!
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/Io90_OpxOA/SANY0428.MP4

So we much prefer this :
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/akqGEfBQkM/DSC_0057.JPG
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/jFJiA575KT/spi.JPG 
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/ISzi8-0XQS/mama (7).JPG
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/W36Hurz50N/zog.JPG

Watch the changes of the apparent wind, that's why the NKE autopilot also provides a true wind mode.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/BXFvz4KpF_/SANY0457.MP4

Around 10 knots, no stress&#8230;
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/KaA8D-4r6t/SANY0455.MP4

Entering Dover (yes, we obtained permission ), just to show you the rigged inner forestay and staysail, just in case.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/y0-Z_jo1T7/SANY0520.MP4

Olympic pic in St. Catharine's.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/pMjwDt1jK4/boot (2).JPG

Sandwich hull + carbon mast + laminate solent + dyneema halyard + performant stopper = extreme rigidity => don't push it, or take the consequences .
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/0eBVVKGfpe/SANY0437.MP4

And finally a small tribute to my beloved Club .
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/Fcx2amE7Nw/vlag.JPG

Kind regards,

Eric


----------



## Faster

Wonderful shots, Eric.... you must be pleased. Looks like a great ride!


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> Some of you are awaiting pictures and video's about our first experiences with the Pogo 12.50.
> ...
> ..
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6szdhosv/Io90_OpxOA/SANY0428.MP4


Eric, thanks for posting.

Lovely boat

Best regards

Paulo

Ps. I tried to post your pictures but without success

Well......


----------



## hannah2

Nice boat Eric, one of my favorites. 

What was your trip across the channel like?


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Ps. I tried to post your pictures but without success
> 
> Well......


You're a magician, Paulo .

Thanks, Faster and Steve .
The delivery of the boat from Brittany to Nieuwpoort was a wonderful introduction to Pogo cruising (see also post #2579 on page 258 and post #3585 on page 359).

But we're still learning, not only about handling a (very) civilised class 40 , but also about antifouling its enormous wet surface .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> ... just to show you the rigged inner forestay and staysail, just in case.


That's funny because I am rigging a similar system to my boat. I would not go to the point of having it rigged all time but if stronger winds are on the menu I intend to have a bag, like the one you have, attached to the lifelines and ready to rig. In fact I have already the bag.

Some questions:

I guess you have a winchard tensioner. What is the model?

What kind of links you have between the sail and the stay? A traditional metal clip on system or a textile connection?

You have a reef on that jib?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

Paulo,

Take a look at this one for a tensioner. I'm sorry I have not had one for many years but felt they were the perfect stay sail/solent tensioner. I think it was made by Schaefer. It is Item # 12 on this website

Staysail and inner forestay hardware and quick release fittings from Rigging Only


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Take a look at this one for a tensioner. I'm sorry I have not had one for many years but felt they were the perfect stay sail/solent tensioner. I think it was made by Schaefer. It is Item # 12 on this website
> 
> Staysail and inner forestay hardware and quick release fittings from Rigging Only


Thanks.I am not familiar with that model. Here the ones that are used are nºs 13 and 14 (Winchard). I guess Erick uses nº 13 that is the one that I intend to mount. Just to be sure that is the right size

If I understand well the design the one you point will work well but it will not be as fast as any of the other two and we are talking about a removable stay that will only be mounted in bad weather.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

Paulo,

I forget you go fast and I'm an old cruiser


----------



## robelz

EricKLYC said:


> Some of you are awaiting pictures and video's about our first experiences with the Pogo 12.50.
> Please excuse me for the clicks, I didn't succeed to obtain embedded codes for this material .


Thanks for your pictures, its an amazing one! Have you ever tried to sail with keel up? I am often limited to 2.00m...


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I forget you go fast and I'm an old cruiser


I guess you like to go faster than what you admit other wise you would have stick with the old Manson

I was not referring to boat speed but in easiness and time needed to tension the stay. when I will use it it will be blowing probably 25K so I want to minimize the time I will be at the bow. Fast in this case relates to that.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Alphena One*

Another trend on the European market seems to be the increase of high performance luxury day sailers. I guess that it make sense for someone that has only 3 weeks of holidays a year. He will charter on the nice cruising grounds on the summer and for the week-ends he has a smaller boat that will give pleasure to own, more pleasure to sail and that will cost a tiny fraction of what would cost a big cruising boat in maintenance. Smart move that is being reflected in the number of these boats available on the market.

One of the new boats exposed at Dusseldorf was the Alphena and I will not resist to tell you a funny story:

The boat was exposed at the It yachts near the beautiful It IY 13.98 (same dealer) and I had just finished to visit it with the shipyards owner when I saw the Alphena for the first time. I said to him: "Uau!, that's a Brenta?" He laughed and said to me: "Don't tell nobody but that's just a French copy"

In fact having looked at the boat I have to admit it is a very nice one and not a copy, just the same type of boat: Classical/modern lines, narrow with a lot of ballast on a bulb and most of all beautiful. Have a look:

Alphena One | Alphena Yachts


----------



## PCP

*LadyHawke 33*

Not many small Cats on this thread. Let me post a nice one 

Cats as a cruising boat has two problems: prices on marinas and cost, I mean they are expensive. Many are also more about space than performance.

But some can offer space and performance even if for a price. Here we have an interesting one, made in Italy and designed by one of the best Cat designers: Erik Lerouge

The LadyHawke 33 is a very interesting coastal cruiser with good performance and a very interesting interior space. As almost all Cats with this size is a Class B boat even if I have no doubt that is a seaworthy boat regarding what he is designed to do. With 65sqm for 3500kg of weight and relativelly narrow hulls, this will be a fast cruiser.

This boat costs about the same as a 40ft cruiser monohull and can be an interesting option regarding cruising. Have a look:

LadyHawke 33 | Lady Hawke - Eng


----------



## PCP

*The pink racing boat*

Who the hell races a pink boat? The girls, of course



















The boat is the ex-Puma. The boat has been modified. The team is sponsored by SCA (SCA team) and it seems that they are for real. The one that is selecting the team is Magnus Olsson a Six-time VOR race veteran and they are already testing.

It seems that the ladies (professional sailors) interest for the project is huge and two groups were formed to select the best and given the names on the first group I guess that the boys are going to have competition (lots of solo sailors).

Some names: Sam Davies (Open60), Jeanne Gregoire (Figaro), Liz Wardley (VOR) and a lot of Girls from Match racing.

I hope the second group is as strong as this one

You can hear Sam Davies talking about the project and the see the first images of the Girls sailing fast:


----------



## PCP

*Sig 60 and 45*

I had posted here about the Sig 45, a Cat that I would love to own:











and now they are presenting the Sig 60. Well, for that one I would trade my house and would be living permanentely on a boat if someone would pay for maintenance and marina costs

Seriously, for the ones that have the money to afford it, what an wonderful boat:


----------



## PCP

*AIS? / Vendee Globe*

I have seen in a lot of posts many guys having what I think is an unfounded confidence on the AIS system.

Two collisions on the Vendee Globe and this close call make me very suspicious about AIS efficiency, specially with small fishing boats...and even with some cargos

*Alessandro (IT, Team Plastique):

I'm fine. I have between 20 and 25 knots.

Yesterday, I was really scared because of the cargo. I heard my radar, but I wasn't sure it was a boat, because the radar can ring for many reasons.

I tried several VHF calls until the last minute when I saw it coming out of the fog on my starboard side. We were on a collision course. The cargo was not the AIS system and still did not answer my VHF calls.

During a few moments I was ready for the impact. So I decided to luff to slow down my boat and I change my journey in order to let the cargo pass at the front of the bow. It was about 100 meters or less from my boat when it crossed me and even after their crossing they continued not to respond on the radio.

I was angry and anxious because my life was in danger. There was nobody in the cockpit and that explains why we see that many accidents on the water.*

And they keep arriving and Public keep saluting then as if they were winners. Great spirit and a population that loves sailing.





L'arrivée de Mike Golding (2e partie) _por VendeeGlobeTV_





L'arrivée de Dominique Wavre (2ème partie) _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Even Bernard Stamm that was not racing anymore had a big welcome. Nice





L'arrivée de Bernard Stamm aux Sables d'Olonne... _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria cruiser 56*

This one was also presented in Dusseldorf. I had not time to have a look at the inside but the hull looked good. Like the previous one, it is a Farr design.

If follows the recent tendency of a bigger freeboard to manage to have a cabin with a very moderate high, I mean over the deck because on the interior the height is just more than enough. The new Hanse works the same way and I have to say that in big boats like this one you don't feel the high freeboard and the boat looks much more elegant and less massif than the previous model.

On the cockpit the boat has some innovations, well not really new because they come from the Vision series, like the possibility to transform the cockpit in large beds (I like that).

I like also this boat being the only one in this class to have four winches in the cockpit, two for the main, two for the front sail.

The interior seems to follow the improvements in quality and design that where first shown on the Vision series. This boat seems to be a big improvement regarding the previous model.

The Dingy garage does not make sense. Who wants a dingy garage that needs the dingy to be deflated?: Rolleyes:


----------



## EricKLYC

> Some questions:
> 
> I guess you have a winchard tensioner. What is the model?
> 
> What kind of links you have between the sail and the stay? A traditional metal clip on system or a textile connection?
> 
> You have a reef on that jib?


I think this is a very good plan, Paulo. Your Comet 41 S also carries a lot of sail and even with a well designed roll-reefable foresail, there comes a moment when you just want a very strong and flat sail on an inner forestay that also brings the sailplan down and away from the bow.

But the system we have does not involve a quick release type of tensioner. 
The textile (12 mm dyneema) inner forestay has a looped end that connects with a rope and tackle fitted on the bulkhead in the anchor/sail locker/crash box. This tackled rope comes back on the foredeck and first runs through a clutch (remote controlled from the cockpit with an thin line) to the piano, to be tensioned by the winch on the coachroof but without this enormous tension kept between the clutch on the foredeck and the piano in the cockpit.

Somewhat complicated to explain but quite straightforward to use. The main issue is: tackle + winch allow quite a lot of tension on the inner forestay, which I think is important when things get though.
I would be glad to take and post some pictures to make this more clear, but the whole set-up is now completely dismantled for winter storage .

So I hope the V&V video (posted earlier by Paulo) will help understanding how it works. 
Fast-forward to the very end (presentation of the foredeck) and you will see the (temporary) forestay, the tensioning rope and the remote controlled clutches (the second one is used to give the same amount of tension to the bowsprit). Then just imagine all these lines coming back to the piano.
Pogo 12,50 : rapide, dans les grandes largeurs

Anyway, as soon as we expect strong and contrary winds, we rig the inner forestay and the staysail in its bag ready for use. Beforehand and preferably at port. Because whatever the configuration, it's always a heavy sail to bring forward and a hell of a job to rig the whole thing on a rocking foredeck . 
But not permanently, because the inner forestay is a real pain in the (BEEP!) to tack the solent in normal conditions :hothead.

Our sail has regular metal clips, Paulo. Given the conditions within the staysail is used, I think this is the best solution.
Yes, the staysail has a reef. Although we never used it yet , I think it would be a pity not to provide this when things go really bad. But having to go out there and reef this sail is one of my favorite nightmares .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

robelz said:


> Have you ever tried to sail with keel up? I am often limited to 2.00m...


Thanks, Robelz.

We're also frequently restrained by draft, even to be able to leave Nieuwpoort . But we always keep the keel completely up (1m20) until we reach open (and sufficiently deep) water before hoisting the sails.

Not because of stability, Paulo already posted very reassuring curves even with the keel up . But this very deep (3m) and slim keel is only sufficiently stable when it's head is firmly holded within its hull case.

This is just a matter of design: the keel is not supposed to take the strain under sail unless it is completely down, otherwise it could whobble. But once you get used to take attention to this, it only takes to push the right button to switch from shallow to deep draft .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## bjung

EricKLYC said:


> Thanks, Robelz.
> 
> We're also frequently restrained by draft, even to be able to leave Nieuwpoort . But we always keep the keel completely up (1m20) until we reach open (and sufficiently deep) water before hoisting the sails.
> 
> Not because of stability, Paulo already posted very reassuring curves even with the keel up . But this very deep (3m) and slim keel is only sufficiently stable when it's head is firmly holded within its hull case.
> 
> This is just a matter of design: the keel is not supposed to take the strain under sail unless it is completely down, otherwise it could whobble. But once you get used to take attention to this, it only takes to push the right button to switch from shallow to deep draft .
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Eric,
Thanks for the very informative and honest reviews of your Pogo. 
Do I understand you correctly, that the Pogo should only be sailed with the keel completely down (3m draft?)?
Bernd


----------



## PCP

*Solo sailing*

Some fantastic piece of video posted by Stamm recently where he appears to be an amateur. of course it is not the case, he is one of the best, just look at this video from an old 2001 Atlantic transat record:






What happened on this video was a problem with the autopilot and one, that he know now, persisted all race. It is quite amazing that with a fundamental piece of material working with problems he would have had the confidence to drive the boat as hard as he had done (he lead the race and was a long time fighting for the lead).

This happened on the first days of the race, offshore Portugal and he explains what happened:

with the running minutes on the movie:

1:00

Bernard is running downwind at 25 knots boatspeed under main and small spinnaker. There is a problem with his starboard hydrogenerator and he starts the cockpit video recorder to show him going over the back of the boat to disconnect it.

1:18

At this moment, the autopilot unexpectedly switches off and the boat accidentally gybes, putting the spinnaker on the wrong side, pinning the boom against the runner and the boat lays flat in the water and stops. "Lucky I didn't break anything," says Bernard. "That was a miracle."

1:46

He goes to release the runner, but remembers that he has used the runner tail temporarily to lash on the hydrogenerator he'd been working on, so he has to climb up to untie it first. Meanwhile, you can hear the autopilot off-course alarm going off.

3:18

Bernard manages to ease the backstay. The sail stacked outboard is his genoa, which was fastened on, but not very tightly. The boat begins to move and you see Bernard steering, while also trying to operate the canting keel, which is on the wrong side. You hear the motor for that beginning at 4:05 and gradually the boat begins to come upright and tear off again downwind.

05:56

*Another brief accidental gybe. This happened "three or four times" that afternoon.*

07:05

Bernard says he's wondering here what's going on. "It was about an hour before I could stabilise the pilot enough to find a way to get it to steer while I got on the phone to the shore team to tell them we had a real problem we needed to sort out or I would not get past Portugal," he explains.

His autopilot problems persisted all the way round the world. "We solved a lot of problems, but we never got the real one. There must have been a bug," he says.

Accidental gybe - laid flat | Yachting World





Quand les ennuis commençaient à bord de... _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## EricKLYC

bjung said:


> Do I understand you correctly, that the Pogo should only be sailed with the keel completely down (3m draft?)?
> Bernd


That's correct, Bernd. Only when the keel is completely down, the head is perfectly stable in the keelbox. And I must say it then does not give a kick, even in the worst conditions.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## hannah2

*Re: Solo sailing*



PCP said:


> Some fantastic piece of video posted by Stamm recently where he appears to be an amateur. of course it is not the case, he is one of the best, just look at this video from an old 2001 Atlantic transat record:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What happened on this video was a problem with the autopilot and one, that he know now, persisted all race. It is quite amazing that with a fundamental piece of material working with problems he would have had the confidence to drive the boat as hard as he had done (he lead the race and was a long time fighting for the lead).
> 
> This happened on the first days of the race, offshore Portugal and he explains what happened:
> 
> with the running minutes on the movie:
> 
> 1:00
> 
> Bernard is running downwind at 25 knots boatspeed under main and small spinnaker. There is a problem with his starboard hydrogenerator and he starts the cockpit video recorder to show him going over the back of the boat to disconnect it.
> 
> 1:18
> 
> At this moment, the autopilot unexpectedly switches off and the boat accidentally gybes, putting the spinnaker on the wrong side, pinning the boom against the runner and the boat lays flat in the water and stops. "Lucky I didn't break anything," says Bernard. "That was a miracle."
> 
> 1:46
> 
> He goes to release the runner, but remembers that he has used the runner tail temporarily to lash on the hydrogenerator he'd been working on, so he has to climb up to untie it first. Meanwhile, you can hear the autopilot off-course alarm going off.
> 
> 3:18
> 
> Bernard manages to ease the backstay. The sail stacked outboard is his genoa, which was fastened on, but not very tightly. The boat begins to move and you see Bernard steering, while also trying to operate the canting keel, which is on the wrong side. You hear the motor for that beginning at 4:05 and gradually the boat begins to come upright and tear off again downwind.
> 
> 05:56
> 
> *Another brief accidental gybe. This happened "three or four times" that afternoon.*
> 
> 07:05
> 
> Bernard says he's wondering here what's going on. "It was about an hour before I could stabilise the pilot enough to find a way to get it to steer while I got on the phone to the shore team to tell them we had a real problem we needed to sort out or I would not get past Portugal," he explains.
> 
> His autopilot problems persisted all the way round the world. "We solved a lot of problems, but we never got the real one. There must have been a bug," he says.
> 
> Accidental gybe - laid flat | Yachting World
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quand les ennuis commençaient à bord de... _por VendeeGlobeTV_


Great video on Bernard, I was impressed with his sailing ability, the ability to comprehend and all most instantly make corrections to a very serious problem. I know these guys are professional and they are all great sailors and great athletes. Watching the video you can see Bernard observing everything around him as he works, trying to put all that has happened into a book in his mind and sorting it all out in near perfect order.

The quick thinking and how Bernard went about fixing a serious problem shows most likely that he had thought often of things that can go wrong. One does not have to think of that exact situation before it happens to be able to solve the problem but a series of smaller problems fixed or thought deeply about that related to this type of situation.

As serious sailors and cruisers I hope we all are spending the time to go over situations that could be serious to you and your crew. Always be thinking, observing, spend time to " WHAT IF?"

Cheers

Steve


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> But the system we have does not involve a quick release type of tensioner.
> The textile (12 mm dyneema) inner forestay has a looped end that connects with a rope and tackle fitted on the bulkhead in the anchor/sail locker/crash box. This tackled rope comes back on the foredeck and first runs through a clutch (remote controlled from the cockpit with an thin line) to the piano, to be tensioned by the winch on the coachroof but without this enormous tension kept between the clutch on the foredeck and the piano in the cockpit.
> 
> Somewhat complicated to explain but quite straightforward to use. The main issue is: tackle + winch allow quite a lot of tension on the inner forestay, which I think is important when things get though.
> 
> ... you will see the (temporary) forestay, the tensioning rope and the remote controlled clutches (the second one is used to give the same amount of tension to the bowsprit). Then just imagine all these lines coming back to the piano.
> ..


Very curious system. I never had seen anything similar.



















I see the clutch, the one with a blue line that goes to a little hole and then to the tackle (inside the anchor locker). But I see also a white line coming out of the hole. What it is for?

I see also a plastic handle and a loop on the stay. I thought that it was a direct system connection, from the blue line to the stay, but then what is that blue loop on the stay and the handle what role plays in the system?












EricKLYC said:


> Our sail has regular metal clips, Paulo. Given the conditions within the staysail is used, I think this is the best solution.


Yes, no doubt a clip is the best system but I asked if they were made of metal because Comar sailmaker that is specialized in high tech sails and solutions was very adamant about not using metal clips on a textile stay. I had saw some textile clips but at very high prices (about 50 euros each) so I am in the process of making them for my sail. I have alredy the wood buttons that come from China and I am in the phase of buyng 6mm dyneema rope to do the lops. Something like this:










Can you talk with the guys from Pogo and their sailmaker to confirm what Comar sailmaker had said to me regarding metal clips to be inappropriate for a textile stay?



EricKLYC said:


> Yes, the staysail has a reef. Although we never used it yet , I think it would be a pity not to provide this when things go really bad. But having to go out there and reef this sail is one of my favorite nightmares .


Regarding your favorite nightmare I have good news to you. Have a look:










You can pull the reefing line from the cockpit with that system.



EricKLYC said:


> Anyway, as soon as we expect strong and contrary winds, we rig the inner forestay and the staysail in its bag ready for use. Beforehand and preferably at port. Because whatever the configuration, it's always a heavy sail to bring forward and a hell of a job to rig the whole thing on a rocking foredeck .
> But not permanently, because the inner forestay is a real pain in the (BEEP!) to tack the solent in normal conditions :hothead.


Yes that is the same problem in what regards rigging. Like in your boat my removable stay is pretty forward and it would make difficult tacking.

I plan to have it permanently mounted if I went out already with strong winds and in that case that is the sail I am going to hoist. If strong winds are a possibility I plan to have the sail already on deck, forward, attached to the life lines on a long bag similar to the one you have. Only if strong winds appear I will go forward, mount the stay and clip the sail in it. I guess it would gave some work but with the boat sailing with a reefed main that should not be very hard.

I guess that Jib without the reef would be good for 30/35 K wind. In fact the boat works very well with only that sail and just a bit of main or no main at all. I guess that with the reefed staysail as only sail the boat would be good for 40/45 winds. More than that I would have to put the storm sail. That should not come as a surprise and in that case I will have the Jib mounted in the stay and on the lifelines inside the long bag, ready to clip, the storm sail.

Even so it would be more difficult than cliping the jib because I would have to put the Jib on the forward sail locker and only then I would be able to clip the storm sail. I don't want to think what would be like if I had not a sail locker just in the right place. It would be very difficult to bring that big sail (the jib) to the boat interior, at least alone.

I guess this year I am going to try that system a lot since I will be sailing the Cyclades in July and August and that means a lot of days with wind over B7.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

Smart to keep the tensioner on deck as opposed to another line in the mast. I like the simplicity and design. I imagine there is a pully system under the deck to distribute the pressure of the tensioner. ??

The bigger issue I see with this setup on the pogo is the sheets and the more complex system without the foresail sheet tracks. Not sure you can rig 2 lines thru these.

If there enough slack on the tensioner to lash the storm "étai" to the mast leaving room for the Genoa or do you need to drop it entirely? If you could lash it to the mast you could then set up the sheets and clip the sail from the mast (stable), and then just pull it forward off the tensioner and raise..?


----------



## PCP

*New Grand Soleil 43*

This was one that I wanted to see in Dusseldorf but they had only the 39 (that looked great). The first new 43GS was on the Paris boat show and then it went to England, don't know why (probably sold).

The boat was tested by Voile and Voiliers and they only said good things about it. That's remarkable since they are French and Italians are the main competition. As expected the boat is fast even if it was the "cruising" version they have tested. There will have a more sportive version weighting 10% less, carbon mast and all. I guess that one will be a match for the Xp 44.

This one is just an wonderful performance cruiser with a very high quality interior, more cozy and with a better design than the one on the Xp 44. The price is halfway between a First 45 and a XP 44.

Even if not the fastest version this one would be fast enough for me, if I had the money:

with main and a code 0:

With 3.5K TW at 90º - 4K speed

with 6.0K TW at 110º - 6K speed

with 11.0 TW at 110º - 8.8K speed


----------



## hannah2

That is a beautiful SY and it looks powerful. But, But where is the windlass and the anchor? Even I have to stop sailing once in a great while drop anchor and have a G&T or a good single malt.  Oh, I see where the anchor goes, interesting indeed. I'll get used to these new designs someday.

Cheers


----------



## wopalx

*Re: New Grand Soleil 43*



PCP said:


> This was one that I wanted to see in Dusseldorf but they had only the 39 (that looked great). The first new 43GS was on the Paris boat show and then it went to England, don't know why (probably sold).
> 
> The boat was tested by Voile and Voiliers and they only said good things about it. That's remarkable since they are French and Italians are the main competition. As expected the boat is fast even if it was the "cruising" version they have tested. There will have a more sportive version weighting 10% less, carbon mast and all. I guess that one will be a match for the Xp 44.
> 
> This one is just an wonderful performance cruiser with a very high quality interior, more cozy and with a better design than the one on the Xp 44. The price is halfway between a First 45 and a XP 44.
> 
> Even if not the fastest version this one would be fast enough for me, if I had the money:
> 
> with main and a code 0:
> 
> With 3.5K TW at 90º - 4K speed
> 
> with 6.0K TW at 110º - 6K speed
> 
> with 11.0 TW at 110º - 8.8K speed


What a daft spot to the the anchor?

Like Volvo's 20 years ago where they seemed to fire the designer just as they got to the rear doors so they stuck a box on the back for the trunk like the 740's years ago.....

The XP's (38, 44, 50) have a much nicer arrangement with the anchor roller more or less hidden under the bow sprit, chain and warp goes internally to a windlass and locker under the deck.

They have also engineered the sprit to be strong enough not to need the supporting cable you see on many boats (like this one).


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> That is a beautiful SY and it looks powerful. But, But where is the windlass and the anchor? Even I have to stop sailing once in a great while drop anchor and have a G&T or a good single malt.  Oh, I see where the anchor goes, interesting indeed. I'll get used to these new designs someday.
> 
> Cheers


Here you have:










Not only a winch and a chain locker but also also a sail locker.

I guess they found out that the boat looked better for the pictures without an achor

The boat is really a beauty










Cheers

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Solo sailing*



hannah2 said:


> ....
> The quick thinking and how Bernard went about fixing a serious problem shows most likely that he had thought often of things that can go wrong. One does not have to think of that exact situation before it happens to be able to solve the problem but a series of smaller problems fixed or thought deeply about that related to this type of situation.
> 
> As serious sailors and cruisers I hope we all are spending the time to go over situations that could be serious to you and your crew. Always be thinking, observing, spend time to " WHAT IF?"
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve


And I thought I was the only one to do that kind of "" WHAT IF?".

In fact one of the secrets for solo sailing is to think in advance every move you have to do and the right sequence. As most things in life it's easy: You only have to know what to do next and do it as quick as you can. As in life, knowing "what to do next?" and the right sequence is more hard than it seems and requires a fair amount of thought. In an emergency it is not a good time to think what to do next.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sundbeam 36.1*

We have talked lately a lot about Sunbeam boats and with good reason: They seem to be in a successful renovation process and they are making quite interesting boats at a mid price between Jeanneaus and the like and HRs and the like.

They are an older brand (+50 years) and had always made quality boats but the design was not top and the performances were not great. Well, they had changed all that. The boats are well designed with a great attention to details, their are good looking, have a good quality and are as fast as the other boats in this class. The 36.1 is designed by Georg Nissen e Manfred Schoechl.

The only thing I don't like is the (only) two winches on the cockpit. Other boats in this class have that system, with only two winches too and today only Bavaria and performance cruisers offer 4 on the cockpit so it can be said it is a trend....well, I don't like it.

The boat was tested by yachtingMonthly and the test is quite good. I agree with all, except that stuff regarding the two winches and how easy is to sail with only that. Well maybe with relaxing sailing but how it will work with a geenaker?






A nice boat and an interesting one for someone that wants a comfortable, quality and well thought boat with everything needed already included in the standard boat price for not as much as a Swedish or Danish boat. The boat has also different stability characteristics than the typical mass production boats of this class with less beam and with a bigger B/D ratio (33%). I like the hull and keel, the overall design too. A nice boat


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> Very curious system. I never had seen anything similar.


It looks quite complicated indeed. Thanks a lot for posting the snapshots Paulo, they make it much easier to describe the setup .

In fact it's a very efficient arrangement to be able to put a very high tension on the inner forestay. 
Not only to get a flat staysail, but this is also the only way to bend the mast somewhat further and flatten the mainsail. Because there is no backstay (fathead mainsail) and no runners (it's a cruiser ), the mast is only pre- bent by the very aft swept spreaders and a lot of tension on the caps and shrouds. Extra bend of the very rigid (carbon) mast in heavy weather must therefore be obtained by (quite huge) tension on the inner forestay . 
With a traditional rig a comparable flattening effect is obtained by taking in the backstay.

Let me describe the setup starting from the cockpit. Once rigged, the tension is applied from the cockpit with one of the coachroof winches, multiplied by the tackle in the sail/anchor locker/forward crash box.





















> I see the clutch, the one with a blue line that goes to a little hole and then to the tackle (inside the anchor locker). But I see also a white line coming out of the hole. What it is for?


So this blue line runs from the piano, all the way forward through the clutch on the foredeck.
This clutch can be operated from the cockpit with an thin control line. This is meant to avoid permanent strain on the line (and the deck) all the way back to the cockpit, the same way racers fit masthead hooks to take halyard strain off the mast. (The green line and its clutch do the same for the deployment of the bowsprit, also requiring quite a lot of tension.)

The blue line then disappears into the sail/anchor locker/forward crash box, where it runs through a 3:1 tackle. Winch + tackle give plenty of power, which is transferred to the white line exiting the locker again and ending on the black "handle" (on later Pogo's it's a thick kind of manrope knot).



> I see also a plastic handle and a loop on the stay. I thought that it was a direct system connection, from the blue line to the stay, but then what is that blue loop on the stay and the handle what role plays in the system?












The thin, blue, knotted loop on the video is a fake (I presume because the inner forestay was then not yet rigged on the only just finished hull #1). Imagine instead the looped end of the thick textile forestay, that fits into the "handle" or manrope knot in the same way you designed these nice textile "clips".



> Yes, no doubt a clip is the best system but I asked if they were made of metal because Comar sailmaker that is specialized in high tech sails and solutions was very adamant about not using metal clips on a textile stay. I had saw some textile clips but at very high prices (about 50 euros each) so I am in the process of making them for my sail. I have alredy the wood buttons that come from China and I am in the phase of buyng 6mm dyneema rope to do the lops. Something like this:














> Can you talk with the guys from Pogo and their sailmaker to confirm what Comar sailmaker had said to me regarding metal clips to be inappropriate for a textile stay?


I have no idea why textile clips would work better on a textile forestay, I'd rather expect more friction, wear and tear. But I'll certainly check this with our sailmaker Incidences. Anyway: nice design (and nice drawings).



> Regarding your favorite nightmare I have good news to you. Have a look:














> You can pull the reefing line from the cockpit with that system.


Thanks for the tip, Paulo! But there is a limit to the number of lines that can be brought back to even the largest cockpit, so the halyard of our staysail is trimmed from the mast and we have to go to the foredeck to reef it anyway&#8230;



> Yes that is the same problem in what regards rigging. Like in your boat my removable stay is pretty forward and it would make difficult tacking.
> 
> I plan to have it permanently mounted if I went out already with strong winds and in that case that is the sail I am going to hoist. If strong winds are a possibility I plan to have the sail already on deck, forward, attached to the life lines on a long bag similar to the one you have. Only if strong winds appear I will go forward, mount the stay and clip the sail in it. I guess it would gave some work but with the boat sailing with a reefed main that should not be very hard.
> 
> I guess that Jib without the reef would be good for 30/35 K wind. In fact the boat works very well with only that sail and just a bit of main or no main at all. I guess that with the reefed staysail as only sail the boat would be good for 40/45 winds. More than that I would have to put the storm sail. That should not come as a surprise and in that case I will have the Jib mounted in the stay and on the lifelines inside the long bag, ready to clip, the storm sail.
> 
> Even so it would be more difficult than cliping the jib because I would have to put the Jib on the forward sail locker and only then I would be able to clip the storm sail. I don't want to think what would be like if I had not a sail locker just in the right place. It would be very difficult to bring that big sail (the jib) to the boat interior, at least alone.


I fully agree, this is exactly the way we do it when strong winds are expected. You certainly don't want to carry a heavy staysail across the foredeck when things become really bad.
And the way we would do it if we had a storm sail. We don't, because I think the stability of the boat should be sufficient to cope with 50+ winds with a reefed staysail. Another of my favorite nightmares .



> I guess this year I am going to try that system a lot since I will be sailing the Cyclades in July and August and that means a lot of days with wind over B7.


The Cyclades&#8230; absolutely wonderful every time we went cruising there. 
With a reliable engine and a large bimini for the prevailing windless summer conditions and to enjoy the beautiful scenery, anchorages, &#8230; 
And also with very good sailing and anchoring equipment for the Meltemi and the violent thermal winds that also occur, sometimes without warning. But of course you know all that much better than I do, so enjoy it !

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Francis Joyon is back on the water chasing another record:*

You don't know who Joyon is? Shame on you. He is just the man that holds the sailing circumnavigation solo record (57 days and 13 hours), the sailing 24 hours solo record (668 Nm averaging 27.83K), Central Atlantic record ( Cadiz -S.Salvador) and the Record France - Mauritian Islands, always in solo of course.

Is on the water trying to beat his own Central Atlantic Record, that is called in France: "Route des decouvertes".

Besides this record its main objective for this year is to beat the North Atlantic record and he is warming up for the clash of titans: The 2014 Route du Rhum.

On the last one he was beaten by.....Franck Camas that sailed alone the monstrous trimaran that he used with a full team to beat the world circumnavigation absolute record. Camas managed what many deemed impossible: to solo sail that monster and beat Joyon and his dedicated solo trimaran racer.

The North Atlantic solo record is, since 2008, in the hands of Thomas Coville with 5 days and 19 hours. Joyon had tried to beat it in 2011 but capsized shortly after leaving New York.

Have a look at Joyon and his boat:


----------



## PCP

*Circumnavigation with a 7.7m boat, a Django.*

I don't like it. It is as foolish as the other guy that was sailing a A35 at 50º South, trying to establish a non stop circumnavigation record. The A35 is a great boat with offshore potential but trying to sail it on the stormy Southern ocean is a stunt. If one has luck it will make it if not he would be rescued, as it was the case.

This other guy, trying to circumnavigate with a Django 7.70, is doing the same, I mean a stunt. The Django is a great boat, with care with the weather can even cross the Atlantic but circumnavigate? Maybe he can do it if he is lucky and in that case it would be worse because other guys would think that it is an appropriated boat to do that and may try the same with less luck.

This is not an adequate boat to circumnavigate. The boat was EC classified as a Class B boat, as in my opinion should be:

Mare Haute - Django 7.70

Now this guy says it is a certified Class A boat. I don't know if they managed to alter the boat in a way that it could pass a Class A certification but I doubt it. I don't know any boat with this size that has made it as a Class A:

Le voilier, un Django 7.70

But even if they had managed to certificate the boat as a Class A that does not mean that it is appropriated to circumnavigate.

*He is looking for partners for the voyage. Maybe you are interested?*

Into the wind | Un bateau , un piolet , un parapente , un tour du monde . . .

The French press is covering the project:

La presse | Into the wind

Well, they should say instead that what this guy is trying to do is a dangerous thing. This is the same type of stunt as 70 old grand mothers or teenagers trying to circumnavigate non stop. These guys should be looked as crazy loonies not has potential heroes and the nautical press should refuse to cover these stunts, not giving coverage to them. well, I guess this sell magazines

The Django 7.70 is a very interesting and seaworthy boat to its size, a very interesting coastal cruiser with some limited offshore potential:






*MOVIE:*

Django 770 : teaser de l'essai complet en vidéo

..


----------



## robelz

Hey Paulo,
after reading a lot here and otherwere, it becomes clearer what I need:

- a fast boat, especially shorthanded (no regattas!)
- "comfortable" (I need space, no mahagoni) with 4, but also useable with 6 persons
- under 200k€ (and not older than 5 years)
- under 2m deep 
- lots of upwind
- wheel(s), no tiller
- save boat up to 7-8bft


So what about the Salona 35 (maybe with heavier keel)?
Elan 350?
A35?
Sun Fast 3600?

btw: any information on a bigger Seascape? Only heard that there will be one... Sometimes!


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Hey Paulo,
> after reading a lot here and otherwere, it becomes clearer what I need:
> 
> - a fast boat, especially shorthanded (no regattas!)
> - "comfortable" (I need space, no mahagoni) with 4, but also useable with 6 persons
> - under 200k€ (and not older than 5 years)
> - under 2m deep
> - lots of upwind
> - wheel(s), no tiller
> - save boat up to 7-8bft
> 
> So what about the Salona 35 (maybe with heavier keel)?
> Elan 350?
> A35?
> Sun Fast 3600?
> 
> btw: any information on a bigger Seascape? Only heard that there will be one... Sometimes!


Lot's of boats that meet your criteria. I guess that in what regards an upwind boat the bigger limitation is about draft even if you don't say how much under 2.00m you need to go. I guess that in what regards size a 34/35ft is the minimum considering the occasional 6.

For what I understand from previous posts you want to sail actually in places with 2.00 depth. That is much different than to access places with a minimum of 2.00 depth. For instance, with a 2/2.2m depth boat I normally sail off the 10.0m line, start to take care when I come closer. I am really careful with less than 6.0m and don't sail at all with less than 4.0m. I understand that are lot's of places where the water is very swallow for great extensions but in that case I guess one has to carefully consider the options and the draft.

If you are going to actually sail in places with a 2.0 depth it will not be safe to sail in a boat with 1.9m draft.

I guess this will be your mainly limitations in what regards the choice of a boat. Can you clarify better your needs in what regard cruising grounds and depth?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> Lot's of boats that meet your criteria. I guess that in what regards an upwind boat the bigger limitation is about draft even if you don't say how much under 2.00m you need to go. I guess that in what regards size a 34/35ft is the minimum considering the occasional 6.
> 
> For what I understand from previous posts you want to sail actually in places with 2.00 depth. That is much different than to access places with a minimum of 2.00 depth. For instance, with a 2/2.2m depth boat I normally sail off the 10.0m line, start to take care when I come closer. I am really careful with less than 6.0m and don't sail at all with less than 4.0m. I understand that are lot's of places where the water is very swallow for great extensions but in that case I guess one has to carefully consider the options and the draft.
> 
> If you are going to actually sail in places with a 2.0 depth it will not be safe to sail in a boat with 1.9m draft.
> 
> I guess this will be your mainly limitations in what regards the choice of a boat. Can you clarify better your needs in what regard cruising grounds and depth?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


No, no, I am going to have save travels with 2.00m. I am sailing crash-free with a 2.05 HR42 for 15 years...

1.80 would at least extend the selection of harbours (but it will slower the boat)...


----------



## PCP

*Polish boats : Sedna*

I said that at Dusseldorf I saw a lot of good looking Polish boats. They appear solid and well built. One of those that I never heard about was Sedna. They have a 26 and a 30ft, both inexpensive for the size, with good interiors, apparently well built and good looking. They are centerboarders and their stability does not seem to be nothing special to say the least:





































All boats are designed by the Polish Na Leszek Gonciarz. They are advertizing a new 36ft, a Class A boat and this one seems more interesting. No dimensions were announced but the boat looks good:



















http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy322/Paulo_Carvalho/Vega/s363_zps593201d8.jpg[/IMG

They seem to be making a lot of boats for an unknown brand:

[IMG]http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy322/Paulo_Carvalho/Vega/Polux/DSC00255_zpsc0bd3fed.jpg


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> No, no, I am going to have save travels with 2.00m. I am sailing crash-free with a 2.05 HR42 for 15 years...
> 
> 1.80 would at least extend the selection of harbours (but it will slower the boat)...


If you want a boat with a very good upwind performance that will rule out the Elan 350.

200K is a lot of money for a 34/34ft boat. With that I would suggest you two boats that have a very good B/D and will have a feeling of a bigger boat: The Arcona 340 and the Dehler 35. But most of all sail test the boats. Mr K sails on a Arcona 340 (his brother's boat if I am not mistaken) and maybe he can offer you a ride.

For that kind of money you can have a bigger boat, if not one as expensive as Dehler or Arcona and I would say you to Charter a Salona 38 in Croatia. Compare both boat, I mean the Arcona and a basic Salona 38 and see what is the one that seems to fit better your needs and will satisfy you more.

Regarding the Salona 35, as you say, it is a bit low on the B/D for my taste and it seems also yours. That is not such a problem on a bigger boat but can give a smaller one a too sportive behavior as a cruising boat specially if it has so much sail as the Salona 35. Of course, Salona has the advantage of that interior steel grid and the possibility of safely add more ballast and they would do that (or at least they would do for me). I guess that on the 35, with all ballast on a torpedo, it would need only more 150/200kg on that torpedo to fit my bill.

You have also the Dufour 36p option.

The A35 and the Sunfast 3600 are in other class. Faster but with a much more limited cruising interior. First see if that interior fits your bill in what regards storage, tankage and interior comfort and if so that would be the kind of boat that would give more sailing pleasure.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> If you want a boat with a very good upwind performance that will rule out the Elan 350.
> 
> 200K is a lot of money for a 34/34ft boat. With that I would suggest you two boats that have a very good B/D and will have a feeling of a bigger boat: The Arcona 340 and the Dehler 35. But most of all sail test the boats. Mr K sails on a Arcona 340 (his brother's boat if I am not mistaken) and maybe he can offer you a ride.
> 
> For that kind of money you can have a bigger boat, if not one as expensive as Dehler or Arcona and I would say you to Charter a Salona 38 in Croatia. Compare both boat, I mean the Arcona and a basic Salona 38 and see what is the one that seems to fit better your needs and will satisfy you more.
> 
> Regarding the Salona 35, as you say, it is a bit low on the B/D for my taste and it seems also yours. That is not such a problem on a bigger boat but can give a smaller one a too sportive behavior as a cruising boat specially if it has so much sail as the Salona 35. Of course, Salona has the advantage of that interior steel grid and the possibility of safely add more ballast and they would do that (or at least they would do for me). I guess that on the 35, with all ballast on a torpedo, it would need only more 150/200kg on that torpedo to fit my bill.
> 
> You have also the Dufour 36p option.
> 
> The A35 and the Sunfast 3600 are in other class. Faster but with a much more limited cruising interior. First see if that interior fits your bill in what regards storage, tankage and interior comfort and if so that would be the kind of boat that would give more sailing pleasure.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The Arcona is a real beauty. I wonder why it is lighter but has lots more of ballast. Will it even be the faster boat (compared to Salona)?

I think the SF3600 will be comfortable enough, but 2.15m might be too much. How expensive will it be?


----------



## olianta

Hi,
If I was in the market for the kind of boat meeting Robelz's requirements, (who wouldn't like such about, except for the price), I would go for the new Luffe 3,6 coming this year. Luffe yachts have been already reviewed extensively on this thread thanks to Paulo's firsthand impressions. The new Luffe 3,6 is going to adopt some modern trends like wider beam for the traditionally narrow Luffe yachts, (the same as in Luffe 4004 but for substantially shorter LOA). It will be heavier by more than 1,5 ton than the Luffe 37, which means more cruiser oriented boat, still very good B/D ratio, more space below and stronger hull. I would be certainly interested to wait its launch and test review.

Best regards

Rumen


----------



## olianta

Since I cannot post links in order to learn more on the boat in my previous post you can google Minbaad.dk, look for archive issue dated May 26,2012 and translate the article in original Danish.
Best regards 
Rumen


----------



## PCP

olianta said:


> Since I cannot post links in order to learn more on the boat in my previous post you can google Minbaad.dk, look for archive issue dated May 26,2012 and translate the article in original Danish.
> Best regards
> Rumen


Hi Rumen,

Thank you for posting about the new Luffe 36.6. The boat looks very good and with the habitual care on design and manufacture. I love love the photo of the designer and builder caressing his new baby

The substitution of the old 37 is already overdue and boats and fast boats like the Arcona 340 were already slightly faster.

Can you find and post the boat dimensions? I could not find them

Regarding not be able to post links, that's your fault: You should post more
































































Cheers

Paulo


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> The Arcona is a real beauty. I wonder why it is lighter but has lots more of ballast. Will it even be the faster boat (compared to Salona)?
> 
> I think the SF3600 will be comfortable enough, but 2.15m might be too much. How expensive will it be?


Lighter with more beam and more ballast means a more powerful and stiff boat. Yes the Arcona 340 is faster, but not much. The Salona has a more modern keel with a torpedo and that helps to maximize its ballast.

Nothing better that handicap rating to give you an idea of a boat speed potential. Using the Nordic one (LYS), the arcona 340 has 1.29 and the Salona 34R (same hill as the 35) has 1.26, so yes, the Arcona 340 is slightly faster. Both are fast boats. To give you an idea a Bavaria 44 has 1.24 (the bigger the number the fastest the boat.

I don't know about the price of the SF3600. Probably not much more than the one of the Arcona 340 but that boat is more intended to race than to cruise. Look at some things he have said about the boat, as not having a decent access to a cockpit locker or having a very small galley:

http://www.navark.se/wp-content/uploads/navark/Broschyr_sf3600.pdf



PCP said:


> Thanks Marty. Almost all those pictures were posted but that PDF gives new information even if none in what regards the interior that seems to be the negative part of this boat, in what regards performance cruising. However I could not access the internet pages you have posted. They ask me to log in
> 
> I guess that you are refereeing to this:
> 
> http://www.navark.se/wp-content/uploads/navark/Broschyr_sf3600.pdf
> 
> The new images:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The overall shape of the hull seems great to me for a 36ft boat but the only access to cockpit storage is very small. Even if the space is considerable, as I suppose, it would have a difficult access. Given the storage space it is certain that for cruising, or even offshore racing this is a one cabin only boat since the other cabin would be full of stuff (4 persons anyway). If so it is difficult to understand why one of the cabins has not a cockpit access, like for instance on the J 111.


Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

[QUOTE Paulo ]Can you find and post the boat dimensions? I could not find them

Here is the data. The automatic translator did not manage it all but I made some guess for the missing translations.

Data - Luffe 3,6

LOA 11.00 m 
LWL 10.30 m 
Width 3.13 m 
Depth 1.90 m 
Mast Height 16.70 m 
Ståhøyde 1.87 m - this should be standing height
Vækt 5300 kg - Displacement
Ballast 1960 kg 
Storseil 37 sqm - Mainsail
Fok 33 sqm - Genoa
Even Striking 27 sqm - not sure what it is may be self tacking roller-furling jib?
Gennaker 98 sqm 
Code1 57 sqm

Regards
Rumen

P.S. Trying to upgrade membership by placing enough posts.


----------



## PCP

olianta said:


> [QUOTE Paulo ]Can you find and post the boat dimensions? I could not find them
> 
> Here is the data. The automatic translator did not manage it all but I made some guess for the missing translations.
> 
> Data - Luffe 3,6
> 
> LOA 11.00 m
> LWL 10.30 m
> Width 3.13 m
> Depth 1.90 m
> Mast Height 16.70 m
> Ståhøyde 1.87 m - this should be standing height
> Vækt 5300 kg - Displacement
> Ballast 1960 kg
> Storseil 37 sqm - Mainsail
> Fok 33 sqm - Genoa
> Even Striking 27 sqm - not sure what it is may be self tacking roller-furling jib?
> Gennaker 98 sqm
> Code1 57 sqm
> 
> Regards
> Rumen
> 
> P.S. Trying to upgrade membership by placing enough posts.


Thanks,

So, Still a narrow boat (as in the shipyard tradition) but with a relatively broader transom and the beam more carried aft.

Comparing with the Luffe 37 dimensions:

LOA:	11.18	m LWL:	9.70	m
BOA:	2.75	m Draft:	1.70	m
Ballast: 1.65t Displacement: 3.70t
Sails:	
Mainsail: 25.00	m² Genoa: 32.00	m²
Jib: 21.00	m² Spinnaker: 89.00	m²

We can see the boat is slightly smaller but as a considerable bigger LWL and that is also beamier (3.13m to 2.75m) has more draft, more ballast (1960 to 1650kg but is also a lot heavier? (5300kg to 3900kg).

Anyway a much more powerful boat, able to carry more sail upwind and downwind (upwind - 64 sqm to 46 sqm). This difference in sail area will be more than enough to compensate for the superior weight of the new boat. This boat would be considerably faster and very good upwind.

This is a boat for the ones that like to sail with heel. I had the pleasure to have a little test sail with the boat designer on the 40.04. It was something like 25K of wind and the boar immediately heeled and then stopped at 20/25º and remained there, solid as a rock. The boat had racing sails with no reefs and that seemed not to worry him Nice day sailing in a beautiful boat with a great sailor.

Cheers

Paulo


----------



## olianta

Referring back to the charisma of Linjett yachts (if I remember well someone posted about the outdated hull shape, on the other side the LYS figure indicates
that it is a very fast boat and considering the price which is higher than average Scandinavian made boat, As well as the experience of the yard (may the oldest in Europe still existing), I want to come back to the issue of the significance of a qualified naval architect. Can Mat Gustavsson, owner and designer of Linjett yachts be considered such? I would expect your comments after the quote of part of an article published on the Feb issue of Sailing magazine. The article is named "Built with love" about a Swedish couple who purchased hull no.102 (last) of the discontinued Linjett 35 and even have participated in the final improvements:
"There is not a single drawing for any of the boats - not for the interior, nor for the hull or anything. Mat uses a plastic material to build a model. He starts by 
cutting the view from above. He shapes the plastic into a sailboat and test it in his bathtub, adding weights and obviously finding the centre of gravity. Once complete the first yacht in the line is constructed based on the model. Then the boat is entered in the summer racing circuit in the Swedish archipelago near Stockholm to test it sailing. Afterward, the design is fine-tuned and improvements are incorporated in the line". 
How does it sound? Maybe one has to ask Bob Perry who writes regularly for the same magazine.

Sorry I had to rewrite the passage from the article. Could not copy/paste it but I have not changed anything.
Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

olianta said:


> *"There is not a single drawing for any of the boats - not for the interior, nor for the hull or anything. Mat uses a plastic material to build a model. He starts by
> cutting the view from above. He shapes the plastic into a sailboat and test it in his bathtub, adding weights and obviously finding the centre of gravity. Once complete the first yacht in the line is constructed based on the model. Then the boat is entered in the summer racing circuit in the Swedish archipelago near Stockholm to test it sailing. Afterward, the design is fine-tuned and improvements are incorporated in the line"*.
> 
> How does it sound?


It sounds good

He is one of the last NA from the old school before computers. There are some good ones still doing great boats....and the performance on the race track speaks about design quality, whatever the methods that are used.

There are several Nordic ones on the same category among them Oluf Jørgensen the designer off Luffe yacht (that also races them), Niels Peter Faurby, the designer of Faurby yachts (also a racer) is another. I think they use design but not CAD and I bet that they start with models. That was the way boats were designed in old days. First it was made half hull and then the lines were taken from there.










On the South of Europe there are not many examples that I know off, except one that counts a lot by the great performance of his boats, I am talking about Jacques Valer a guy from the old generation that I don't believe uses the computer except for the final images of his boats. I saw paper designs from him not long ago. He designs the boats for JPK and JPK boats win everywhere:

JPK

Anyway a generation that will end up in some years, I am sure. Today everybody uses CAD for design. However they are also part of a generation of NA that continue strong, the ones that race their boats or had an active past as racers. Many of those are today main NA, specially in France.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*What an wonderful boat: Black Maggy*

Incredible 32fter, not only beautiful but also ultra high-tech:



















* Don't miss this video*:

Kompositrakete aus Hooksiel - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Here you can see how it was built:


----------



## PCP

*On multihull stability*

I had posted this on another thread about multihulls. I think that it would be interesting to post it here as well since it contains interesting data and links:



PCP said:


> mdi posted a link with interesting information about multihulls, including stability on another thread. I think it is useful to have it here also. The link:
> 
> Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - Account Login
> 
> and my comments:
> 
> *Quote:
> Originally Posted by PCP
> Thanks, interesting stuff.
> 
> But in what regards stability the ratios they use are a bit limited. Both take into account the sail area but in extreme situations one does sail in bare poles or with very little sail area so in fact those ratios don't tell about the absolute stability of a boat but about the stability for the max sail area the cat can carry (you can always reef).
> 
> Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article
> 
> Looking at the formulas they attribute the same importance to three factors: Length, beam and weight. That seems a bit arbitrary to me.
> 
> I remember some years ago of some huge racing multihulls (60ft) that were capsized on a huge storm, carrying no sail, just for the windage on the mast. If I remember rightly 70 to 80K winds.
> 
> A good way of having an idea of an absolute static stability measure on a multihull would be to know what the intensity of wind would be necessary to capsize the cat only with the wingage over the mast and cabin. I don't understand why that is not used. It is not difficult to computer predict that and surely If I sailed a cat I would know more about that than about a relative stability regarding Stability/sail area. I can always reef or go to bare poles.*
> 
> Interesting that the stability ratio used by the designer of Tom cats multihulls is not the same:
> 
> *"The stability formula gives a result which is the wind speed (in Knots) required to just lift the windward hull (the point at which, in a cruising boat, not a beach cat, you scream "Let go the sheets!", or better still "Let's put a reef in her").
> 
> Stability = 13.7 sqrt(Wt * 1/2Bm/SA * HCE)"*
> 
> Welcome to TomCat Boats
> 
> As you can see they are different:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article
> 
> Anyway on this times of CAD design, with powerful programs I don't understand the need of approximated ratios when it would be easy for the designer to calculate for each boat (taking into consideration all boat's dimensions) this value and most of all the force of wind needed to capsize the boat on bare poles. This could be a king of AVS point for multihulls, not related to heeling but with wind force. If those values were mandatory we could have a pretty good idea of the stability of each cat.
> 
> Anyway, as we cam all see, Beam, length and weight are all determinant factors in a multihull stability and that's why I had made some personal reserves to the use of small light cats for offshore work.
> 
> ...


----------



## robelz

Speaking about JPK: What about the 38FC with double keel: Will there be a big lack in speed oder stability?


----------



## PCP

*Twin keels*



robelz said:


> Speaking about JPK: What about the 38FC with double keel: Will there be a big lack in speed oder stability?


No, the stability is almost for sure the same. They normally calculate the need in ballast to have an identical stability curve. The difference in speed is marginal and will only matter to competition.

If you look, somewhere in this thread is a comparative between a RM with a mono keel and another with a twin keel, made by RM yachts. The differences are small, some tenth's of a knot.

The boat will have a better mass distribution and without sails the boat will roll less, not to mention the advantage of a smaller draft and the possibility to beach the boat for repairs or anti-fouling.

There is a good reason why lots of French performance cruisers that are used mostly for cruising use twin keels. The advantages are many and if well designed the inconvenients are not significant, just a small loss in performance.

This is a good article about twin keels, a bit partial towards them, but a good one anyway:

*And from France we have what I consider to be some of the most innovative and technologically advanced Twin Keel boats ever seen, although not particularly offering shoal draft capability.
The RM range of Twin keel sailing yachts... Marc Lombard, a prolific and talented designer with Open 50 and 60 ocean racing machines to his credit, has designed the most recent boats in this range....

On many large cruising yachts it is obvious that as soon as they heel, the wide body of the hull pivots the short fin keel into a position where it is presenting no lateral resistance to the water and thus the whole boat slips away to leeward.

Indeed it could be argued that Twin Keels are the obvious choice for the
modern voluminous hull shape providing excellent accommodation for today's
sailor who still requires good pointing ability and straight tracking....*

http://www.wrightonyachts.com/wp-co...hton_data/articles/en_inpraiseoftwinkeels.pdf

Here another slightly partial article on Twin keels.

Bray Yacht Design and Research Ltd. - The Advantages of Twin Keels

Don't let they foll you: regarding performance the only thing better than a deep draft torpedo keel is a deep draft canting torpedo keel (even if they require foils).

But when draft becomes part of the question it is well possible that the same medium draft twin keel is more efficient than a medium draft monokeel and with smaller drafts, the advantage of the twin keel becomes bigger. At least is what the French think and they have a lot of experience on the subject.

For example, regarding the RM 10.60, the two keels proposed are monokeel with 1.95m and twinkeel with 1.65m. They say that the difference in performance between both keels is marginal, even if the monokeel has a better performance but if they used both keels with 1,65m I doubt very much the monokeel would be a match. That's their point and that's why they offer mostly and recommend twin-keels for cruising.

Performance cruisers like the JPK 38, RM or Bongo they made the boats with twin and mono keels and they will provide you with all the information regarding the advantages of both systems. All of those twin keels are high performance keels.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Randonneur 980*

Never talked here about amateur boat building but since we are talking about twin keels I remember having seen this Canadian home built Randonneur 980(Montreal) and since it is a nice one and one of those twin keels way ahead of its time, here are the pictures:


















































































This is not the same boat, but just to show the keels and ruders:










The Canadian one was built in 2008 and the one on the last photo in 2006 but the design is older...older but still very modern. They are still being built:

CONSTRUCTION AMATEUR D'UN RANDONNEUR 980 | Newswinch

That is a Marc Lombard project and in fact very close to the ones he had designed for RM.

When they solve the problems with the site you can have more information here:

http://www.marclombard.com/

What makes them popular is, besides performance, that they are easy to build. Marine plywood impregnated with resin and then kevlar or other less expensive fiber. 3000 hours of work is what it takes.

Here you have lots of photos of that Canadian one being built (on the left):

Artaban, le randonneur canadien. - La construction amateur d'un randonneur 980, voilier en CP époxy


----------



## PCP

*New solo Atlantic Record by Francis Joyon*

This guy is incredible...with 56 years of age he beats his own old 2008 SOLO record (with the same boat) by *MORE THAN A DAY*

There are some guys that become better with age, like the wine. His time is really incredible: 8 days, 16 hours, 7 minutes and 5 seconds.

The absolute record belongs to Franc Cammas with a full team in the huge Groupama tri with 7 days and almost 11 hours.

We are talking about the central Atlantic record, the same route that Colombo did. Colombo took about 40days

The solo monohull record belongs to Giovanni Soldini on the VOR 70 Maserati with more 2 days and 8 hours.

Chapeau to Joyon. Now to finish is career with all records he only needs to beat the North Atlantic Record and win the Route du Rhum. Some tough competition for the last one, I am sure, maybe even Cammas.






Even the British are enthusiastic about the man:

*One of the greatest seaman of our times has set a new record: the incomparable Francis Joyon yesterday knocked 1 day and 4 hours off the course record for the Columbus Route between Cadiz and San Salvador.
....

Typical of Joyon, he had no help to do this. In nearly all of the outright records sailors have the benefit of extensive weather and routeing information researched and sent from ashore. Not Joyon. He is the ultimate single-hander, preferring complete self-reliance.

He is a truly remarkable man, one of our time's most modest, skilful, seamanlike sailors, a real pleasure to meet in person and quite shy. He is a great hero of mine - if you don't know his whole history, do read my detailed profile of him here, he's an absolute giant of the sport.
*
Joyon record | Yachting World

Read it, it is interesting:

http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/532328/joyon-world-s-fastest-seaman

....


----------



## EricKLYC

As you know, Javier "Bubi" Sansó's IMOCA 60' _Acciona 100% EcoPowered _capsized almost a month ago in the end stage of the Vendée Globe race, and the skipper was airlifted sound and well 300 NM away from the Azores by the Portugese coastguards .

Here are some amazing images of the capsized yacht before it was righted and towed to Ponta Delgada.

Remember it was the keel that failed, there was nothing wrong with the mast and rig until the boat turned over&#8230;






Best regards,

Eric


----------



## olianta

Paulo, if you are cruising in the Med, you cannot take advantage of the ability to beach with a twin keel. Therefore, in my opinion the issue is whether you want a boat with a smaller draft, in which case as you say it is better to choose a twin keel than a shoal mono keel as offered as an option by many boat yards. Do you think for a crusing yacht the tween keel option makes sense as a precaution against losing the mono keel if you hit an UFO. And vice versa if you run aground with a tween keel yacht wouldn't it be more difficult to refloat it? Last concern about the tween keel - does it increase drag?
Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Twin keels*



olianta said:


> Paulo, if you are cruising in the Med, you cannot take advantage of the ability to beach with a twin keel. Therefore, in my opinion the issue is whether you want a boat with a smaller draft, in which case as you say it is better to choose a twin keel than a shoal mono keel as offered as an option by many boat yards. Do you think for a crusing yacht the tween keel option makes sense as a precaution against losing the mono keel if you hit an UFO. And vice versa if you run aground with a tween keel yacht wouldn't it be more difficult to refloat it? Last concern about the tween keel - does it increase drag?
> Regards
> Rumen


Yes it increases drag but in a way that will only matter if you race. Yes it will make more difficult to refloat a boat aground and I don´t think that losing a keel in a modern cruising boat is a concern.

However I find the two rudder option very interesting in what regards that. Rudders are a lot less fragile than keels and today mono rudders are almost as deep as keels while with two rudders you have not only two but much less deep rudders.

I confess I am not worried to touch the ground at slow speed with the keel but I am worried to do that with the rudder and that can happen when you moor Mediterranean style on some small harbor (anchor first and then backwards to the quay). I guess I am going to mount a forward looking sonar to have first a look at the quay deep before going backwards

Everything comes with vantages and disadvantages and the twin rudders make a boat very hard to maneuver.

Back to twin keels, their advantage is more efficiency with less draft and the possibility to beach the boat. The disadvantages are a marginally worse performance with a deeper draft boat. Your pick

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Take away the motorboats and leave the rest, including the nice looking women.*


----------



## PCP

*Sea Masters movie: Great sailing*


----------



## PCP

*Nice Girl*


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe 2013 - Best off*


----------



## PCP

*Cruising: Russian Far East*


----------



## olianta

Hello everybody,

What will be your comments on this boat I find interesting, though the second part of the name does not correspond to its meaning. It is Scandinavian Cruiser 40. The manufacturer is a company named Scandinavian Cruisers Limited founded in 2008 by Nis Lorentzen, a Danish who has spent most of his years working in the USA and China but comes from a boatbuilding family and the NA Eric Sponberg, a Swedish-Amrican. They make 20, 30, 40 and 66 footers, which are daysailors, though named cruisers. I copied (not with big success) the measures of the 40 footer thinking it is in the most popular range. Actually I am not sure that they have built the 40' because I could not find photos, only 3D models, though they certainly have a 20' afloat, which was reviewed by Sail magazine. I could not find information where is the shipyard - Denmark, Poland or China? Does anybody knows more about these boats and in particular about the 30 and 40 footers. It will be interesting also to find out what would be the price, which define as affordable. The base price of the SC20 is 19000€, which is too much for a keelboat weighing only 340 kg of which 170 ballast.

SC 40
L.O.A.:
Waterline length: 
Beam: 
Freeboard height: 
Keel draft: 
Shoal draft: 
Displacement: 
Ballast 50%: 
Mainsail: 
Jib: 
Asym. spinnaker:
11.98 m (39' 4")
7.66 m (25' 2")
2.04 m (6' 7")
0.65 m (2' 1")
1.75 m (5' 9")
0.45 m (1' 6")
2.2 ton (4,800 lbs)
1.1 ton (2,200 lbs)
26 sqm (280 sqf)
11 sqm (118 sqf)
45 sqm (484 sqf)



Regards 
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Scandinavian Cruisers 40*



olianta said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> What will be your comments on this boat I find interesting, though the second part of the name does not correspond to its meaning. It is Scandinavian Cruiser 40. The manufacturer is a company named Scandinavian Cruisers Limited founded in 2008 by Nis Lorentzen, a Danish who has spent most of his years working in the USA and China but comes from a boatbuilding family and the NA Eric Sponberg, a Swedish-Amrican. They make 20, 30, 40 and 66 footers, which are daysailors, though named cruisers. I copied (not with big success) the measures of the 40 footer thinking it is in the most popular range. Actually I am not sure that they have built the 40' because I could not find photos, only 3D models, though they certainly have a 20' afloat, which was reviewed by Sail magazine. I could not find information where is the shipyard - Denmark, Poland or China? Does anybody knows more about these boats and in particular about the 30 and 40 footers. It will be interesting also to find out what would be the price, which define as affordable. The base price of the SC20 is 19000€, which is too much for a keelboat weighing only 340 kg of which 170 ballast.
> 
> SC 40
> L.O.A.: 11.98 m (39' 4")
> Waterline length: 7.66 m (25' 2")
> Beam: 2.04 m (6' 7")
> Freeboard height: 0.65 m (2' 1")
> Keel draft: 1.75 m (5' 9")
> Shoal draft: 0.45 m (1' 6")
> Displacement: 2.2 ton (4,800 lbs)
> Ballast 50%: 1.1 ton (2,200 lbs)
> Mainsail: 26 sqm (280 sqf)
> Jib: 11 sqm (118 sqf)
> Asym. spinnaker: 45 sqm (484 sqf)
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


I remember to have followed this boat when it was announced some years ago and as I did never saw any picture (40ft) I assumed the project was not a successful one.

This is an interesting boat but a pretty extreme one for today's market. It's narrow beam will mean that the boat, except downwind will always sail witha lot of heel, with any meaningful wind and that the lady suntanning would be quickly on the water










It is a sailor's boat on the tradition of old Swedish cruiser, that were very narrow and that's why she is called cruiser, I mean these cruisers:



















This is in fact as you point out a daysailer and even the 60ft has not probably standing height:










The boat is nice but I am sure it is expensive and it would be a lot of money for a daysailer and one very selfish, I mean sailors will have fun but the wives or guests should not have much with all that heeling unless they are sailors too.

There are a considerable competition in Europe regarding traditional daysailers even if none as extreme in what regards beam and they are selling well. In Dusseldorf there were several of these boats in exposition and I visited the 10m Safier (2.50m beam), a very nice boat that I already knew from photos.

If I was a bit smaller I could live with the interior, I mean that has not even seating height for me but I would have to be a child to be able to use the head

*MOVIE:*

Saffier: Der Edelstein unter den Daysailern - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

You can also look at Eagle boats that seem to have a better finnish, if we take as meadure the 20ft:

http://www.leonardoyachts.com/en/eagle-44.html

The boats are narrow but not as narrow as the Scandinavia cruiser The 36ft has 2.58 of beam ans here you have the 44, pretty narrow too, with a 2.76 beam:






I guess that in what regards interior space the same would happen on the 40ft Scandinavian cruiser, that would provide a nice daysailer but not even a decent weekend cruiser.



















So in fact the 20ft makes a lot more sense since it offers about the same thing as the 40ft, that has just a bigger cockpit and a cabin but not probably an usable head or galley.















and yes, the boats are made in China

Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

Thanks Paulo!
I did have my suspicions that it was made in China but was not sure. And that SC20 is good for a couple of hours day sailing and anchoring close to the beach with the shoal draft. But I know that it is a lot of hassle to launch and retrieve, to rig and unrig such a boat within one day. On the other hand is it worth to keep a marina berth for it? The better option, in my opinion, is to have a beach catamaran instead or if you want it portable in a package you can go for something inflatables like the Grabner Happy Cat Ultralight or the Vision or some less expensive brands. 

Now, we will be waiting for the last sailor to arrive at Les Sables d'Olonne. And what a sailor. He was my favourite, though I new he could not win. Apart for the reason of his boat, being the oldest and the only one with a fixed keel, his background was quite different from that of the other professional racers. One year ago I read his book "Attorno al mondo su una barca di 6.50 m (Around the world on a 6.5 meters boat). He bought the hull of a Mini, made it stronger, closed the cockpit from the stern to increase buoyancy and for wave protection and spent 260 days in this boat doing the non-stop circumnavigation. Being dismasted after a knock-down near Cape Horn, he continued with a jury rig made of the longest 6 m piece of the mast back to Les Sables d'Olonne. I admire this guy not only for his seamanship (for which he was rewarded) but also for his attitude - as if he wants to see how much different is doing the same route on a much bigger boat. I think he would have preferred to do it lonely without the group of the other boats in his own unique non-racing and non-crusing mode, but sponsorship is a must. And I am sure that his reception in Les Sables d'Olonne will not be less impressive than that of the others. Because the French appreciate the good sailors but most of all admire the heroes. And he already proved to be such.
By the way, the book (I have a digital edition), is easy to read and is full of nice photos. 


Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*And the Italians beat the Record New York - S. Francisco*

Solidini team and the Maserati Vor70 are the owners of the Record for monohulls with just some minutes more than 47 days.






The previous record was an old one with an Open 60 and it was French.

Don't you think it is the time the Americans to have a try at it?

They have a faster and bigger boat (Rambler) why let the Europeans stay with traditional American records? Don't Americans care about that?

This was the record hold by Flying Cloud for more than 100 years (89 days).


----------



## PCP

*Alessandro*



olianta said:


> ....
> 
> Now, we will be waiting for the last sailor to arrive at Les Sables d'Olonne. And what a sailor. He was my favourite, though I new he could not win. Apart for the reason of his boat, being the oldest and the only one with a fixed keel, his background was quite different from that of the other professional racers. One year ago I read his book "Attorno al mondo su una barca di 6.50 m (Around the world on a 6.5 meters boat). He bought the hull of a Mini, made it stronger, closed the cockpit from the stern to increase buoyancy and for wave protection and spent 260 days in this boat doing the non-stop circumnavigation. Being dismasted after a knock-down near Cape Horn, he continued with a jury rig made of the longest 6 m piece of the mast back to Les Sables d'Olonne. I admire this guy not only for his seamanship (for which he was rewarded) but also for his attitude - as if he wants to see how much different is doing the same route on a much bigger boat. I think he would have preferred to do it lonely without the group of the other boats in his own unique non-racing and non-crusing mode, but sponsorship is a must. And I am sure that his reception in Les Sables d'Olonne will not be less impressive than that of the others. Because the French appreciate the good sailors but most of all admire the heroes. And he already proved to be such.
> By the way, the book (I have a digital edition), is easy to read and is full of nice photos.
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


I will bet that he is going to have as many people waiting for him as to the first

In fact I followed him in that adventure that you mention and if he never had a chance on this race with a very old boat without canting keel the results were amazingly good. The boat is almost 25% slower than a new one....and that is about the distance he lose to the first group.

Next edition, with what he is going to learn till then, with a new boat, I bet he would be among the first.

I had the opportunity to meet Alessandro in one boat show (Paris? Dusseldorf?) some few years ago. He was there with the mini he took around the world. He is a very simple, humble, smiling guy, the kind of guy that is almost always happy with everything. One of the nicest sailors I ever meet.

You know, that incredible solo non stop mini circumnavigation with a mini, and I say incredible because the guy lose the mast at the middle of it, jury rigged, sailed half the world around like that, and finished as if all was OK to him, is not his only incredible feat.

Before that he done some incredible things with beach cats, like:

*2006
Pacific Ocean crossing on a sport open catamaran (from Yokohama, Japan, to San Francisco, USA), over 4,482 miles.

2002
Atlantic Ocean crossing on a sport catamaran (from Las Palmas, Canary Islands, to Pointe à Pitre, Guadeloupe), over 2,700 miles.

2001: First non-stop solo navigation without assistance, from North Italy to Canary Islands, on a sports catamaran, over 1,700 miles.

1992-1993: Double-handed transatlantic navigation from Sicily to Martinique, on a sports catamaran (less than 6 metres long, without a cabin), over 2,300 miles.*

I guess that after this race is popularity will increase so much that he will have no trouble in get a sponsor for a better Open 60. The difference was that till here he was best known among sailors that had him in great respect. Now he is well known (and loved) by the General Public and that means that he will get easily Sponsorship and if there is a guy that deserves that it is him.

Cheers

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New boat, new sailor, that's what I would like!!!*

You know one of the good things about brand new sailing boats is that they are not only beautiful (if well chosen) but also they don't need maintenace for some years.

Young sailors are like that too. Not me. I write this on an hospital bed after having a surgery to my nose. Some days before it was to my eye and last year to my two years. Jesus I hate this "maintenance" work for to be in shape for the sailing season

I guess that it will take some time for science to be able to provide me a brand new 21 year's old Paulo clone, ready for downloading my memories to it. Well, my memories in a brand new brain and body, as Smack says, would ROCK

Everything is alright and I am in the same room with my 21 year old son that was operated, just before me, to the same thing. In his case it had not do do with age but with a "manufacture defect". Well maybe mine problem was genetic too but it only started to bother me on the last years.

So guys, this is entirely your thread for some time, cause I will only post occasionally on the next days. Right know I fell like I had got a huge punch on the nose and only in three days I will be more comfortable.... so till then, have fun and provide me with some good posts

Cheers to all,

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: And the Italians beat the Record New York - S. Francisco*



PCP said:


> Solidini team and the Maserati Vor70 are the owners of the Record for monohulls with just some minutes more than 47 days.
> 
> Don't you think it is the time the Americans to have a try at it?


North Americans do this:






Europeans do that:






Is'nt this a good explanation ?

Eric


----------



## Faster

*Re: New boat, new sailor, that's what I would like!!!*



PCP said:


> You know one of the good things about brand new sailing boats is that they are not only beautiful (if well chosen) but also they don't need maintenace for some years.
> 
> Young sailors are like that too. Not me. I write this on an hospital bed after having a surgery to my nose. Some days before it was to my eye and last year to my two years. Jesus I hate this "maintenance" work for to be in shape for the sailing season
> 
> I guess that it will take some time for science to be able to provide me a brand new 21 year's old Paulo clone, ready for downloading my memories to it. Well, my memories in a brand new brain and body, as Smack says, would ROCK
> 
> Everything is alright and I am in the same room with my 21 year old son that was operated, just before me, to the same thing. In his case it had not do do with age but with a "manufacture defect". Well maybe mine problem was genetic too but it only started to bother me on the last years.
> 
> So guys, this is entirely your thread for some time, cause I will only post occasionally on the next days. Right know I fell like I had got a huge punch on the nose and only in three days I will be more comfortable.... so till then, have fun and provide me with some good posts
> 
> Cheers to all,
> 
> Paulo


Jeez, Paulo... sounds painful. Best wishes for quick recovery and out of the hospital.. for you and your son. Take care...


----------



## hannah2

Hey Paulo, Ya it sucks to get old, get better soon. I'm always sore and had to have some surgery this year. Today I hiked 12.5 miles up a mountain trail to a water fall, trying to get in shape for our next adventure in June. All I could think of was how sore I was but then I started remembering back in the early 1970's sailing in French Polynesia and all those beautiful Island girls with beautiful brown skin and some French blond hair streaked into long dark hair. Where have those days gone I don't know but hopefully you like me have a good memory, one good enough to still keep us with a smile on our faces.

Best to you 

Steve and Tracy


----------



## Melrna

Get well my friend.


----------



## robelz

Get well, soon! Hope to read lots more of your wisdom...


----------



## olianta

Paulo, "you are getting better all the time". At least for all of us following this thread and your posts. I remember in some other forums someone called you "young man" because you sound so in all your posts and attitudes. No one would guess your age if did not bother to check your profile. Anyway, maintenance is an issue with old boats and bodies. I hate it in both aspects but I have to get used to it (I have just filled in birth date in my profile). Sailing, however, like drinking good wine, is appreciated better when you are at certain age (I make this comparison because I know you have a taste for fine wines). Just think that this nose operation may improve your scents for fine wines' appreciation.

In order to keep the topic on I would like to post a link on another Scandinavian built boat - Scanner 391, which is not a new one. 
Scan Yacht
http://www.scanyacht.se/Download/391.pdf

I would leave Paulo, when he cans and has the time and wish to post his comments and much more...

By the way, Paulo, I still expect your firsthand impressions on the Sly 38, one of the contenders for best performance cruiser at the Dusseldorf show if you think it's worth a post.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Capado, almost home.*

Thanks everybody. Feeling better

New images from Capado, with Adrien and Capucine crossing from South Africa to Brazi l(Cape town - S. Salvador). On a direct line it would be 3332Nm. They have made 4551Nm in 24 days and 17 hours at an average speed of 7,71K. Not bad for a 10m boat loaded for a circumnavigation






QUI SOMMES NOUS? - CAPADO creative boat

Le Voyage de Capado


----------



## PCP

*Sly 38*



olianta said:


> ....
> 
> By the way, Paulo, I still expect your firsthand impressions on the Sly 38, one of the contenders for best performance cruiser at the Dusseldorf show if you think it's worth a post.
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


Yes, I was surprised with the boat of the year award. I was expecting that in the category of Performance boat the winner to be the Grand Soleil 39 or the Sly 38.

Of course I have no doubt that the fact that the Dufout 36p won means that the boat is better than what I initially thought it was and that handicap in what concerns being heavy is somewhat compensated by an excellent balance and a very good feeling at the wheel. I guess the boat had to perform very well to beat the other two but I was also very curious about the main shortcomings they had found on the other boats.

About the Grand Soleil 39, that has a better quality and better cruising interior, compared with the Dufour, I knew already what had happened: They delivered for testing a boat with a mast so badly tuned that they were afraid top test sail the boat with 40k of wind. I guess that is pretty unacceptable and don't say nothing good about the dealer that delivered the boat for testing.

Regarding the Sly I had not heard anything, neither read any test sail. Only saw the boat and found it beautiful with excellent technical characteristics. If there was something that I didn't like it was the transom shape/transition, that looked a bit sharp to me and most of all the interior design. It seemed not inspired and not particularly attractive. But off course I was in a huge disadvantage regarding saying something about the Sly 38. Regarding the other two boats I had not only been aboard as I had read several test sails about each and regarding the Sly 38 I had only saw the photos and the dimensions.














































Length overall	11.50 m
Waterline length	10.25 m
Beam	3.70 m
Displacement	2.30 m
Draught	5.500 kg
Ballast	2.125 kg
Surface area of mainsail + jib 106%	85 m2
Mainsail	49 m2
JIB 106%	36 m2
Spinnaker	110 m2
Engine	30 Hp
Diesel tank	120 Lt
Water tank	280 Lt

On a French magazine I read what was the generalized criticism about the boat by most testers: The interior. They talk about an interior that was made to be disassembled for racing (they say they didn't like the "Mecano" interior) but they say also that the boat is very agreeable at the wheel, fast and with a very good hull. they also said that they have managed to get a considerable interior height without making it apparent on the outside shape of the boat

Finally I managed to read a test sail, an Italian one, from Vela, a very good sailing magazine, this one:

http://www.sly-yachts.com/uploads/3b/5a/3b5a49b9219e4cc6ee3af1c0dfc5a2fe/Sly-38-GdV-Dic-12.pdf

And I know that I would probably love the boat and hate the interior

They say (for the ones that don't read Italian) as main title:

*"Better than a go Kart : Fast, amusing and easy to sail. The interior can also be dismounted for racing".*

And they give the maximum note in what regards sailing:

*On an easy Easy 30° off the wind with 13 knots wind we reached 7.8 knots. The existence of a feet support allows for comfortable sailing without any effort. It's time to enjoy a little downwind sailing.... Even with a spinnaker of contained dimensions, we can safely descend to about 140 ° to the wind and helped by a little waves we reach a peak of 9.5 knots, while maintaining -perfect control of the boat ... I would define the Sly 38 as a "Go Kart" of the sea for its ease of handling and the speed with which it reacts to all the different stresses to which it is subject.*

The Sly 38 was also tested by "Vela e Motore"

http://www.sly-yachts.com/uploads/b1/7f/b17f1c3ce91ebc3c42333a06d5c8ce7e/Sly-38-V-M-feb-13.pdf

and on this test they get light winds....and the performance was even better:










I don' see the need to comment that

They said also that the finish was below what is normally offered by Sly. On Sly the apologize and said that was just the prototype and that the production boats would be better.

Well, if they get that interior right, I would not mind to have one

They did not test this boat with a lot of wind but with all the ballast on a torpedo at 2.30 and a B/D ratio of 39% with 3.70m of beam this boat is going to be stiff, powerful, able to carry a lot of sail in a blow and blast against the wind at a tight angle.

This one, with a reasonable tankage, even in standard configuration, will be a fun sailingboat to cruise but also a serious contender on the Sydney-Hobart. Well, it would not be the most luxurious or comfortable cruising boat around but you cannot have it all...and this one offers already a lot in my opinion. What a boat

Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

Regarding the Sly 38: Obviously the best part is the performance -they give it 5 stars. I expected that as an Italian design and built she would have better interiors. In the Vela article they don't criticise the interiors apart from the steep companion way and praise the unique possibility to easily dismantle the interiors thus making the yacht even lighter than she is, being the lightest of all other compared yachts (Grand Soleil 39, Salona 38 and XP 38). I believe that dismantled she will be the fastest of all of them but I doubt this feature will make the average performance cruiser oriented buyer to choose her among the others. Most probably he will prefer the Grand Soleil for the same price or the Salona or the XP if the price is or is not an issue. 

Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Caribbean 600*

And David beat Goliath. The "little" trimaran beat the big maxi. The 63ft trimaran, Paradox completed the RORC Caribbean 600 in Antigua on 20 Feb 03:22:52, with an elapsed time of 40:22:52. The Maxi Leopard took more 5 and a half hours.

Beautiful boats and though conditions. Great movies :


----------



## PCP

*Caribbean 600*

Some more images. Pity the coverage was so bad. Some beautiful boats out there with some demanding conditions would give a very nice footage.






This race has the potential top become a Classic. The Idea is very interesting, the weather conditions have bean great. It just needs more truly race boats to become a more serious business. They have already plenty of big luxury yachts.


----------



## Faster

It's quite the event... great fleet, normally great conditions. We attended the after party and awards at the Antigua YC a few years back... that year the trades actually died and competitors were still out there... The committee didn't even set a time limit since the 'Trades never quit' but that year they did. We ended up motoring half way from Guadeloupe to Antigua in flat calm.

A remarkably laid back affair, the party, considering the luminaries hanging out there...


----------



## PCP

*Xs 35 cat*

We talked about this one when It was just a project. Now it is on the water and it looks fast:






This is a Morrelli & Melvin Design and comes after the R33. I guess the scope was to make the boat more multivalent, not only as a racer but as daysailer and a week end cruiser. They say that the boat has accommodations for four in two cabins with a head, icebox and stove and is trailerable.

About those accommodation I did not seen anything and also the complete absence of light in the interior or aeration seems not functional. I guess they could do better in what regards program definition. A pity because the boat seems very interesting.

XS Cats - Designers


----------



## PCP

*Cruising Greece: planing information.*

Copacabana is sending me a book about some part of the beautiful coast of Brazil. Nice of him. Hell, I can also share something with you guys, something that give me a lot of work, regarding Greece.

I guess that some around this thread had already sailed there and others will sail because Greece is something that should not be missed. Greece has some particularities being one of then the constant winds on the summer. If someone intends to sail extensively there it is better to plan carefully the voyage because on the Cyclades and Dodecanese region the Wind can blow between force 6 and 8 for weeks and I am sure nobody wants to get upwind with that kind of wind.

Another particularity in the Med is that marinas ate expensive and nowadays even small ports charge you for mooring. That is not a problem if the cruise is short but if he takes several months than it can be a problem. He only go to marinas or ports when we need water or diesel. Out of that we prefer to lunch at Tavernas with the money that would be "wasted" on marina or ports.

This requires also a good planing because not all anchorages are safe enough if wind raises and they are not distributed in a regular way.

So as a way to help planing I just made a blow up of a Rod Heikell map with the wind directions and researched extensively for anchorages, putting them on the map. These are anchorages for the predominant winds on the summer and to my experience predominant here means 90% of the time or over.

This will make easier to plan not only a zig-zag course escaping upwind sailing (I am sure I will get some) but also one that takes me to places where I have safe anchorages in nice places at the end of the day.

Too much talk. The map:










As red dots, the safe anchorages. There could be more around, those are only those that can give a good protection.

Red Islands mean that they have so many anchorages that I did not bother to mark them. Orange Islands, Islands with some anchorages (they are marked in some). Blue Islands, Islands with no or bad anchorages.

I hope it will be useful for some. I know it will be for me


----------



## PCP

*Good news: Finngulg is on again*

Finngulf one of the most respected Nordic brands had gone bankrupt and it seemed that nobody was going to save it.

Not anymore Saved, like Najad by two motorboat companies: Tresfjord , a former Norwegian, now Swedish and Castello Boats from Finland.

Tresfjord Boats and Yachts

Home - Castelloboats

The Finngulf will continue to produce the Karl Johan Strahlmann designs (they have the molds) and the boats will be made in Estonia.

Curiously they will not produce the last launched boat (the 43 designed by Farr) anymore. They will continue to produce among others the 37 and 41 that are classic beauties with a swan look and fast too:

The 41:



















The 37:




























Both are beautiful boats but I find the 37 very well designed. It is very difficult to make a 37ft boat so well proportioned. The boat looks just perfect, I mean the 41 too, but that is a lot easier to do that on a 41ft boat than in a 37ft boat. Maybe we can have the same quality at a lower price.


----------



## EricKLYC

We're all very happy to see that your scent for interesting sailboats is perfectly intact, Paulo .

If everything also goes well for Alessandro Di Benedetto, he and his is IMOCA 60' _Team Plastique _will arrive tomorrow at Les Sables d'Olonne. And thereby end this 2012-2013 edition of the Vendée Globe, "the Everest of the seas".

Almost three weeks behind the winner François Gabart, but with a boat launched more than 14 years ago. One of he oldest designs and the only one with a fixed keel in this race. A major disadvantage, except for its reliability because this boat already participated (and finished!) in three previous Vendee Globe races. In fact Alessandro, although last to finish in this edition of the race, will be the fastest ever on this particular boat. Even after losing all of his downwind sails in the final stage of the race.

If you understand French, enjoy the highlights of Alessandro:





Le Vendée Globe d'Alessandro _par VendeeGlobeTV_

Last Sunday Tanguy de Lamotte crossed the finish line with his _Initiatives-coeur_. Also a quite old design but with a canting keel. He also got his share of misfortune, hitting an UFO with severe damage to his starboard rudder and daggerboard.

Meanwhile he succeeded to motivate hundreds of thousands people to "like" his "Initiatives Coeur" project. Thereby 15 children in need of cardiac surgery but without the necessary resources will be helped. I like that kind of engagement.

Again, only enjoyable if you understand French:





Nao raconte le tour du monde de Tanguy _par VendeeGlobeTV_

Tanguy and Alessandro never pretended to compete at the top. Their only ambition was to finish the race, if possible within an honorable time. 
Both succeeded in this and I think they also did a wonderful job with their enthusiastic video's, permitting us to enjoy this extraordinary race almost in real time and giving us a human insight in this quite inhuman kind of sailing.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Yes, I have said already, I am a fan of Alessandro, not only as a sailor but as a man. Put that guy on the sea in a boat and he starts smiling and keep on smiling all race

I am very curious about the reception he is going to have.

Even Tanguy de Lamotte that was not properly impressive in my opinion (he is a professional racer with lot's of experience in Open 60) had this welcome:





La remontée du chenal de Tanguy de Lamotte _por VendeeGlobeTV_

and this video had already *47 200 hits* in 8 hours
Alessandro performance as a sailor was far more impressive and if I am not mistaken the public knows that. I will not be surprised if the crowd waiting for him tomorrow noon is as big as the one that waited for the leader

I also hope this vendee and popularity helps him to find the sponsor for a competitive Open 60. He had proved that he is not only an adventurer but also a very good sailor that can be competitive if he has the means.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Cruising Greece: planing information.*



PCP said:


> Copacabana is sending me a book about some part of the beautiful coast of Brazil. Nice of him. Hell, I can also share something with you guys, something that give me a lot of work, regarding Greece.
> 
> I guess that some around this thread had already sailed there and others will sail because Greece is something that should not be missed. Greece has some particularities being one of then the constant winds on the summer. If someone intends to sail extensively there it is better to plan carefully the voyage because on the Cyclades and Dodecanese region the Wind can blow between force 6 and 8 for weeks and I am sure nobody wants to get upwind with that kind of wind.
> 
> Another particularity in the Med is that marinas ate expensive and nowadays even small ports charge you for mooring. That is not a problem if the cruise is short but if he takes several months than it can be a problem. He only go to marinas or ports when we need water or diesel. Out of that we prefer to lunch at Tavernas with the money that would be "wasted" on marina or ports.
> 
> This requires also a good planing because not all anchorages are safe enough if wind raises and they are not distributed in a regular way.
> 
> So as a way to help planing I just made a blow up of a Rod Heikell map with the wind directions and researched extensively for anchorages, putting them on the map. These are anchorages for the predominant winds on the summer and to my experience predominant here means 90% of the time or over.
> 
> This will make easier to plan not only a zig-zag course escaping upwind sailing (I am sure I will get some) but also one that takes me to places where I have safe anchorages in nice places at the end of the day.
> 
> Too much talk. The map:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As red dots, the safe anchorages. There could be more around, those are only those that can give a good protection.
> 
> Red Islands mean that they have so many anchorages that I did not bother to mark them. Orange Islands, Islands with some anchorages (they are marked in some). Blue Islands, Islands with no or bad anchorages.
> 
> I hope it will be useful for some. I know it will be for me


Been there, done that. Several times, because I fully agree this is an exceptional cruising area.

But our sailing would have been a lot easier and much more enjoyable if we had this synthetic map .

To check with the short term forecasts, of course. But these general wind patterns are indeed quite consistent and allow to avoid upwind courses as much as possible, with typically very uncomfortable wave patterns because of the strong winds and short fetch. Exactly what you don't want for a relaxing summer cruise.
And take advantage of the (also frequent) windless days to motor to a favourable location before the wind comes back. 
And select a safe anchorage when it hits .

This makes me think of going back sailing there, but now I certainly would'nt without having this map permanently on my chart table .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Re: Cruising Greece: planing information.*



EricKLYC said:


> Been there, done that. Several times, because I fully agree this is an exceptional cruising area.
> 
> But our sailing would have been a lot easier and much more enjoyable if we had this synthetic map .
> 
> To check with the short term forecasts, of course. But these general wind patterns are indeed quite consistent and allow to avoid upwind courses as much as possible, with typically very uncomfortable wave patterns because of the strong winds and short fetch. Exactly what you don't want for a relaxing summer cruise.
> And take advantage of the (also frequent) windless days to motor to a favourable location before the wind comes back.
> And select a safe anchorage when it hits .
> 
> This makes me think of going back sailing there, but now I certainly would'nt without having this map permanently on my chart table .
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Hi Eric,

Last year I had been on the Ionian and there the wind picked up in the afternoon and I remember very few days without any wind.

You talk about windless days. You are talking about Dodecanese and Cyclades in July/ august? No experience there but for what I have read they are pretty rare. Much more windy then the Ionian. Maybe I am misinformed. Can you give a help here.

Regarding motoring, I am in a pretty sailing only kind of voyage, not only for the money (that is important) but most of all for the fun and because using the engine is a limiting factor on my boat autonomy.

This year I would be sailing in Greece for three months, coming out of Rome. This map become necessary for me because there are too many Islands, too many information. After a while I had difficulty in visualizing all information and difficulty in planning a 3 month voyage.

Where would I find nice anchorages and most of all where would I not find them? If you look at the map you will see that there are big coastal areas without any decent anchorage. Of course this is just the beginning but know I can plan a Zig-Zag course that takes me through Crete and Dodecanese Islands, Cyclades, Coastal Greece and Northern Islands and back to Corinth Channel. The fine running goes next with a selection of the nicest places and the ones that I want to see and be there.

On that phase, that I have begun already I had thought on your boat and on the big advantage that represents the very reduced draft in what regards visiting small ports. With my draft I have some that I cannot visit but most of all I have the permanent doubt about the depth of the water near the quay and that is very important because it is where my ruder will be and it is a deep one (I guess almost 2.00m).

I had already that problem in Croatia, no in what regards anchoring, but in what regards going backwards to the quay. Many don't speak English and they are never very sure about the depth there. I am studding the possibility of mounting in the boat a forward looking depth sounder to make first a reading, bow to the quay, after turning around and set anchor, coming then backwards to the quay.

Do you know about someone that have used that kind of depth sounder?

On your boat it is a lot simpler...but then you need a bow thruster to move around in the port. Even so, with that, yours (or Hannas's boat) are definitively the boats easier to explore those wonderful small ports that all small Islands have.

Nice to know that you find the map helpful  If you want PM me an email and I will send you a full size copy.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau 469 - Bavaria Vision 46*

New test and movie on the Jeanneau 469:

*MOVIE:*

http://tv.yacht.de/frontend_dev.php...nie-komplett/b187dc676bd465feb563d9c679e4a55f

I had read several test sails about this boat and they are all unanimous in stating that this is a great cruiser. You can read the one that refers to the movie downloading it from Yacht.de (2 euros in German). It is certainly one of the best test sails, as it is usual on this magazine.

For me the really problem with this boat in what regards its success is the aesthetic side of the question. Nothing wrong with it but they broke on this line a basic rule of sails: They made all models according with the aesthetically line that comes from 409. We can see that this boat resembles the 409. That is a no no, a bigger and more expensive boat should not resemble the less expensive and smaller one, quite the opposite 

Let's see how the public reacts to that. It is a shame because I am sure that is a great boat even if I find stupid that they had used the image of the 409 to make it look as belonging as the same design "line".

I guess that the main competition will come from the Bavaria vision 46 that costs 22 000 euros less. I had also read only nice things about the Bavaria Vision 46.


----------



## PCP

*And the Vendee Globe is over: Alessandro made it home*

and it seems it was not only me and Eric that had noticed that the guy was last but had made a remarkable performance with a boat 25% slower than the ones that arrived first (no canting keel, 14 year's old boat).

He started this race as an adventurer that knew little about racing or sailing an Open 60 and finishes it as a competitive racer and a smiling one, broken rib and all. Now he only need a competitive boat to race with the best and I guess that his vast popularity will make it happen.

Alessandro Di Benedetto (FRA - ITA) on Team Plastique has crossed the finish line of the Vendée Globe at 15h 36 mn 30 s (French Time). He finishes eleventh in the race...(he) makes history *with the shortest gap ever between the first and last finishers*....

...(His) boat (was raced previously) by 'Cali' Boissières in 2008, Sébastien Josse in 2004 and Thomas Coville in 2000....

His race does not bear comparison to his rivals because he does not have the machine to compete in the pack and he has little experience of racing. And so he chooses to start steadily, to learn his boat day by day. To start with he is laid low by flu and that makes for a difficult first few days....

In a way the passage of Cape Horn is a watershed for the skipper of Team Plastique. He is no longer happy to just live his days in a good mood and get on steadily.

He has learned his boat and what makes each tenth of a knot of difference and he has upped the pace and rhythm accordingly. But successive damages have taken their toll. He is left with no downwind sails, has to climb the mast several times to sort out halyard issues. And a tumble into the cockpit when he gybes unexpectedly results in a broken rib for Alessandro. But he never shared a moment which was not upbeat and insightful. Just about every Di Benedetto broadcast started with 'everything is good, everything is OK ...

And now finishing today, Friday 22nd February, *Alessandro has improved on the reference time for the boat of his pal Boissières by more than one day..*.

And ARNAUD BOISSIÈRES is a racer, not really a top one but a good one with lot's of experience racing Open 60's. He won the Record SNSM in 2011.

I am curious about the video. I will post it when available.

...


----------



## PCP

*Alessandro di Benedetto*

Yes, he was received as a winner and the movie is the last one. First have a look at this one. It seems that the school kids of an old mountain village of France (Orthez) had made him their hero and were following the race. They made a movie, don't miss it





L'Ecole de Castétarbe soutient Alessandro _por VendeeGlobeTV_

Seeing this movie I remember that François Gabard (the winner) said that he dreamed to won the Vendee Globe since he had 7 years old. Who knows if among those kids will not be a future solo racer and maybe a Vendee Globe winner. One thing is for sure. Sailing is popular in France, even for kids in Orthez in the middle of the Pyrenees.





Arrivée de Team Plastique (2ème partie) _por VendeeGlobeTV_


----------



## PCP

*New Jboat: J88*

*J/88 a Fast Family Daysailer & Racer*: The boat comes in the line of previous J and in what regards hull design we can see some parallel with some Italian/Croatian boats in what I would call a classic line with the beam not completely pulled aft and with a moderate beam (by modern standards). They don't announce ballast but I am quite sure that it will be a considerably high ratio, similar to the other recent J's. Well, it looks good, without being particularly innovative. I bet it will sail very well





































*From the J design/build team that launched the J/70 and J/111, comes the NEW J/88, a 29' mid-size family speedster with stability, style and sailing comfort. J/88 hits the sweet-spot in J Boat's performance sprit range - large enough to provide the creature comforts of a sit-in cockpit, inboard diesel, overnighting interior and head; and small enough to be single-point lifted, owner trailered and stored.

... Belowdecks, the J/88 sports a weekending layout with two full length settees, Igloo cooler, galley sink, private head forward of bulkhead and optional V-berth.

J/88 hull #1 is projected to launch in June 2013! 
*

Dimensions ft/lb m/kg
LOA 29.19 8.90
LWL 26.84 8.18
Beam 9.50 2.90
Standard Draft 6.50 1.98
Displacement 4,850 2,200
DieselAux.Engine 12 hp 12 hp
100% SA 439 40.80
SA/Dspl 24 24
Dspl/L 112 112


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Cruising Greece: planing information.*



PCP said:


> You talk about windless days. You are talking about Dodecanese and Cyclades in July/ august? No experience there but for what I have read they are pretty rare. Much more windy then the Ionian. Maybe I am misinformed. Can you give a help here.


We also experienced more wind in the Cyclades, Paulo. In general that is, because once we had an almost windless week out there with only very few sailing hours but that was in November .



> With my draft I have some that I cannot visit but most of all I have the permanent doubt about the depth of the water near the quay and that is very important because it is where my ruder will be and it is a deep one (I guess almost 2.00m).
> 
> I had already that problem in Croatia, no in what regards anchoring, but in what regards going backwards to the quay. Many don't speak English and they are never very sure about the depth there. I am studding the possibility of mounting in the boat a forward looking depth sounder to make first a reading, bow to the quay, after turning around and set anchor, coming then backwards to the quay.
> 
> Do you know about someone that have used that kind of depth sounder?


Three months&#8230; that sounds like a wonderful dream .

The stern-to mooring with a very deep rudder is a problem all around the Mediterranean and the pilot books are not always accurate in this matter. And in Greece they don't provide moorings at the quay the way they do in Croatia. I suppose you will sometimes prefer to use a stern anchor and come bow-to.

I don't know about adequate sonar systems but intuitively I would think about a fishfinder type of sounder, although I must admit not being familiar with this type of equipment. And I suppose car parking aids don't work under water :laugher.

Thanks a lot Paulo, I'd love to have this chart.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Re: Cruising Greece: planing information.*



EricKLYC said:


> ....
> 
> The stern-to mooring with a very deep rudder is a problem all around the Mediterranean and the pilot books are not always accurate in this matter. And in Greece they don't provide moorings at the quay the way they do in Croatia. I suppose you will sometimes prefer to use a stern anchor and come bow-to.
> 
> I don't know about adequate sonar systems but intuitively I would think about a fishfinder type of sounder, although I must admit not being familiar with this type of equipment. And I suppose car parking aids don't work under water :laugher.
> 
> Thanks a lot Paulo, I'd love to have this chart.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


 Hi,

Tomorrow I will send it to you.

No, that is not a fish finder but a forward looking dept finder that is able to read the bottom forward till 100m. I think that will solve my problem.

I read about guys that used this kind of system to sail in uncharted places and they say very well about it. This is the more basic system and I think it will be enough for me. There are more sophisticated systems that present 3D resolutions and also read not only forward but also at an angle sideways. I see that you never heard about it, but then I guess you don't need it

Have a look at the basic system I want to fit:

http://echopilot.com/user/image/flsbronze.pdf

FLS Bronze Forward Looking Sonar

and also have a look at the more powerful solutions:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Small oceangoing 28ft sailboat*

Ok, you guys say that I only talk about expensive boats. Well, boats are expensive except if very old and I talk mostly about new boats.This one is a production relatively inexpensive boat with offshore capability, so younger guys and guys low on budget pay attention because this is a very interesting boat and a pretty much unknown one: a Polish one by a Polish NA. The designer, that also makes the boats, is a very interesting guy that had also circumnavigated, in one of his boats, of course.

I find this so interesting that I will make it in several posts. First some movies wind the boat. Girls, play attention please, this may be of interest. Comments please:


----------



## PCP

*Multihull Stability*

While I wait for a comment on those movies and boat, a paper and some comments on Multihull stability that I have posted already on another thread.

http://www.wumtia.soton.ac.uk/sites/default/files/STAB2000BD.pdf

Not many studies around on cats. I had read this one many years ago and I had read it again. In my opinion the study, that is very interesting even if not always enlighten, suffers from a flaw: They determined that in the vast majority of capsizes wind was the main factor in what regards to capsizing and then when studding rolling and capsizing trough testing they considered only waves that have a pretty low incidence in capsizing catamarans, except when associated with wind.

I confess that I don't also understand this conclusion:

*"84% of the catamaran casualties were the result of wind induced capsize or pitchpoling, whereas only 47% of the trimaran casualties were directly attributable to the wind. This does not indicate that trimarans are less vulnerable to capsize by the wind, because there are twice as many trimarans as catamarans in this sample"*

They are talking about percentages so if the numbers are meaningful the fact that they have more samples from one than another is not relevant in what concerns percentages.

In fact it makes sense to say that Trimarans are less prone to capsize than catamarans by the wind. A simple compassion between two typical stability curves will show that while a cat after reaching its max righting moment (between 10º and 15º of heel) will lose rapidly stability, a Trimaran has a much more wider range of stability and even after reaching max RM, the loss of stability is much more gradual.

Here we have to stability curves of two cruising multihulls, or better several Cat GZ curves and a RM curve from a fast cruising trimaran (the shape of a GZ and RM curve is the same since they are proportional).



















We can see that the cat MAX GZ (and RM) will be obtained with 15º of heel and then you have a strait line, from 45º till 80º.

Regarding the Cat we will see the the Max RM (and max GZ) will be obtained with 22º and then it is not a strait line but a slightly convex line that goes till 90º.

That's why when a cruising cat lifts one hull from the water it is a dangerous situation (a side wave can complete the loss of stability) while on a Trimaran sailing with one ama out of the water is normal and even with the central hull partially up (light on the water) the boat is still on control. this gives much more time for a sailor to react in a trimaran than in a cat. That is also why big ocean racing multihulls are today almost all trimarans.

Of course, they found out in that study (with testing) what it was obvious:

*"Of the various catamaran configurations tested, the higher VCG (vertical center of gravity) conditions and the narrow beam configuration proved most vulnerable...
Although the narrow beam model was 20% narrower than the reference design, it is by no means unrepresentative. The length to hull separation ratio of the narrow model was 3.1 ..Previous tests with monohull models, indicated that, in general, they could be capsized by a breaking wave of a height equal to or greater than the beam of the yacht. "*

and here he can see a basic difference between monohulls and multihulls, I mean on the last paragraph. Since the size of the wave, among other factors, relates with the beam of the boat in what regards the size needed to roll it, multihulls are much more resistant to be capsized by a breaking wave.

That is why when we study the factors that lead to the roll of monohulls we have by far breaking waves while on multihulls that is very rare (but not unheard) being by far the main factor, wind or wind associated with waves, a factor that has practically no relevance in rolling monohulls.

Here we can see that through these stability curves (all cats):










We can see that the values of Max GZ go from 1.8 to 3.0 (that has to do with beam). The cat they use as basic model (From where were derived the other models, with less and more beam, higher or lower CG) was a scale model of a 13.6m cat. A monohull with the same size has a Max Gz between 0.8 and 1.2. Since for the same size cats and monohulls have approximately the same weight that can gives us an idea of the different static stability and about the potential to carry sail.

Off course, the cats have to maintain a much bigger safety margin of security in what regards the amount of sail it is safe to carry. On a monohull a broach and a knock down is not a problem, on a cat it means a capsize.

Also, as was expected, they found out that Keels have a negative effect in what regards capsizing multihulls, but not with the relevance that Tropicat seem to attribute to them as a causing factor:

*"The addition of the keels appeared to result in a slight increase in the vulnerability to capsize. For the narrow model it increased the capsize incidence from 14% to 60%, and for the standard model with the second VCG increase it increased from 17% to 25%. ...These results support the theory that it is the resistance to sideways motion that provides the couple to convert the breaking wave energy into rotation."*

As we can see only on the narrow than average Cat the effect of the keels was very significant. On the standard model the increase was only 8% and in a sportive cat, that is wider than the average it is expected the increase would be even smaller. besides this is an old study from the nineties. Today almost no cats use keels, but daggerboarders that have a smaller lateral resistance so it is expected the negative effect in what regards stability to be smaller.

Regarding trimarans, not surprisingly and contrary to the wind factor, they have found that they are slightly more prone to capsize with a breaking wave, found out that smaller floaters in proportion with the main hull will make them easier to capsize by a breaking wave. Here, contrary to catamarans, the weight is a negative factor (and that's why I like trimarans).

*"Of the trimaran configurations, those with the smaller floats were most vulnerable, with a 28% capsize rate for the standard displacement and a 38% capsize rate for the higher displacement....The tests confirmed the common opinion that small floats tend to become fully immersed if the yacht is struck by a breaking wave. Their high resistance to sideways motion then encourages rotation."*

...


----------



## PCP

*Interesting 28ft boat?*

Given your lack of comments it seems that those movies with the Polish ladies and that Polish mass produced 28ft sailboat had only impressed me. You guys are difficult to impress, or maybe you just didn't pay enough attention?

Did you have noticed that it is always the same boat? I mean not the same model, but the same boat?

Did you noticed that all those girls circumnavigated on it solo, some without stopping? A couple circumnavigated also.

So,* the same mass production 28ft boat makes 4 circumnavigations*, 3 of them solo with ladies, always brings everybody safe home, remains in one piece and it is ready to make another circumnavigation and that boat does not impress you? Jesus you guys are really hard to impress

Maybe the incredible speed one of the ladies managed on is little 28ft impress you? Joanna Pajkowska managed to circumnavigate non stop in 198 days. That is two days less than the double of the time Alessandro de Benedetto took on the last vendee Globe in his Open 60.

Jesus, that is about* half the speed of a racing Open 60 on a 28ft sturdy cruising sailboat !!!!!*. That impresses me, I would say *CHAPEAU!!!!* That does not impress you????

Comments?

Samotnie dooko³a ¶wiata - Start

kpt. Joanna Pajkowska - Sama na morzu... - Start

Kobiece regaty dooko³a ¶wiata - Mantra 28.

News: Bolo & Jadzia na Oceanie

http://www.rejs-asiapajkowska.yoyo.pl/


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Small oceangoing 28ft sailboat*



PCP said:


> First some movies wind the boat. Girls, play attention please, this may be of interest. Comments please:


This confirms my personal experience: ladies that like to sail are always absolutely gorgeous .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Salona 33: Better images*

The boat looks good, specially with the tiller option. With a basic price of about 100 000 euros, it seems they are making an effort to lower prices.


----------



## eehgil

I must say I absolutely find the Mantra 28 interesting. Like a modern (fast) Vega? A bit strange that a boat that is presented as an offshore (circumnavigation) boat is only category B. But there might be requirements to get the category A that is impossible to furfill for a 28 feet boat?


----------



## PCP

*Mantra 28*



eehgil said:


> I must say I absolutely find the Mantra 28 interesting. Like a modern (fast) Vega? A bit strange that a boat that is presented as an offshore (circumnavigation) boat is only category B. But there might be requirements to get the category A that is impossible to furfill for a 28 feet boat?


Hi. welcome to the thread and to Sailnet.

Yes, you are right regarding category A and I want to say that I am not endorsing a 28ft boat as a bluewater boat and that personally I would be very reticent in crossing the pond in one less even in circumnavigating in one. It obviously can be done and with a reasonable risk margin, since that boat had circumnavigated several time. Happens that to me a reasonable margin is not enough, I want a big safety margin

That does not mean that the Mantra 28 is not a very seaworthy boat for its size and also a well built one. No 28ft boat could survive 4 circumnavigations if it was not a strong and well built boat. I find the Mantra 28 remarkable as a mass production boat but the comparison with the Vega only is valid if, as you say, we consider the time where they were designed : Both are two great answers for the same design criteria separated by 45 years of design and technological improvements.

The Albin Vega is a 1967 design:



















It is a narrower boat and a full keeler with a sail area/displacement of 16.5. The Mantra 28 is a modern design, beamier (2.70m to 2.46m), with a modern keel with much more draft ( 1.65m to 1.12m) with almost all the weight in a bulb. It has not only a superior stability as it is much faster. It has also more interior space.










The interior is not its stronger point even if it looks functional:




























But look at this Dimensions:










Look at this hull:

MANTRA28 VIDEOS










If I was looking for a small cruiser with offshore capacity I would certainly would go to Poland to look at this one and to know if they cannot do a better job on the interior. Well, I can design it

All the rest seems very good to me in what regards hull design and the very good B/D ratio (36%). I like it and probably the price is an agreeable surprise. Polish boats tend to be not much expensive. Maybe they can tell us about that.
































































http://www.mantra-yachts.com/prodrange/M28/brochure/brochure.pdf

mY mantra 28

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Nice to see a 'smaller' boat featured here.. looks like a winner.. (but not a Winner )


----------



## PCP

*Scandinavia 30*

In Dusseldorf there were plenty of Polish small cruisers, most of all I had never heard about. Generally they are designed by Polish NA that many times is the one that build also the boat.

Most of them were well made but not with the offshore vocation of the Mantra 28 and that is the case of the Scandinavia 30.

But if someone is looking for a nice inexpensive coastal small boat with a great interior, well the Scandinavia 30 may well be the answer. It comes as centerboarder or keel boat:


----------



## Sternik

Oh wow, even I did not know Scandinavia 30 is already in production. Little while back, they only had 26 and 27 - which are somewhat similar.

There is this video on YouTube promoting Polish boat-building industry.


----------



## olianta

Hello!
I am posting a link to an article about one self-made very ugly, but very interesting 12 meter aluminium boat. The owner and manufacturer Ernesto Tross (a German living in Italy and crusing in the Indian Ocean) swears by its seaworthiness and practicality. Essential non-standard features: No mainsail and boom (only fore sails), very aft deckstepped mast that can be lowered and lifted when the boat is on water, three fore stays for three headsails, good ballast in the bilge but no keel (only a centreboard), completely watertight flat deck with a lot of space below. The man claims he can sail up to 50 degrees true wind angle and that in heavy weather the boat behaves well (as far as I understand his only tactic is lying ahull). Without the resistance of the keel (with board lifted) a breaking wave moves the boat sideways instead of capsizing it. There is an interesting article on the boat in the March edition of Giornale della Vela for those who read Italian. The link I am posting is an old one with google translated text.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Interesting 28ft boat?*



PCP said:


> Jesus you guys are really hard to impress


I, for one, am extremely impressed, by both the skill and confidence of the women, and by the performance of the boat. Too bad that I'm not able to understand the Polish commentary, although I did watch all the videos to the end. Now I will certainly be doing more research on this boat, although it is a bit smaller than I would prefer, since I am planning to go double-handed, not solo. However, I'm now thinking that 33-35ft might be adequate, whereas I had been thinking no shorter than 40ft, for speed, safety and comfort.

Please post any print or video reviews of the Mantra 28 if you should come across them (preferably in English, French or Spanish). Thank you very much for posting these inspirational videos.

MrP


----------



## olianta

Sorry guys!
This is the missing link to post 3896

Google Translate


----------



## eehgil

*Re: Mantra 28*



PCP said:


> I find the Mantra 28 remarkable as a mass production boat but the comparison with the Vega only is valid if, as you say, we consider the time where they were designed : Both are two great answers for the same design criteria separated by 45 years of design and technological improvements.


My Comparision to the Vega was ment as a comparision more of goals, not technology. Cheap, solid boats with "all you really need" to take "the people" around the world.

Thank you for a fantastic thread!


----------



## PCP

olianta said:


> Hello!
> I am posting a link to an article about one self-made very ugly, but very interesting 12 meter aluminium boat. The owner and manufacturer Ernesto Tross (a German living in Italy and crusing in the Indian Ocean) swears by its seaworthiness and practicality. Essential non-standard features: No mainsail and boom (only fore sails), very aft deckstepped mast that can be lowered and lifted when the boat is on water, three fore stays for three headsails, good ballast in the bilge but no keel (only a centreboard), completely watertight flat deck with a lot of space below. The man claims he can sail up to 50 degrees true wind angle and that in heavy weather the boat behaves well (as far as I understand his only tactic is lying ahull). Without the resistance of the keel (with board lifted) a breaking wave moves the boat sideways instead of capsizing it. There is an interesting article on the boat in the March edition of Giornale della Vela for those who read Italian. The link I am posting is an old one with google translated text.
> 
> Nella tana dell'Orso Bianco
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


Thanks for posting.





































Google Translate

Is in fact a curious sailboat and built like a submarine, with the exception of the engine but I would not wanted it not even if it was offered free to me. I am sure it is very slow and it seems very amateurish to me. Maybe that's because I am an architect and I am used to see people thinking they can do a better job than an architect and build their houses with their own made plans thinking they know better. I am used to see the results, and the costs also.

You know a good NA has not only a solid theoretical basis that allow him not to make huge errors as has the accumulated knowledge of many other designs he and other NA had done. By other words he is very knowledgeable. He knows what works and what does not work for each use. He can due a better or worse job but it always be a very informed job and in the end it cannot be a bad one.

Thinking that a guy after having made a circumnavigation has the knowledge to improve radically on actual designs and systems is foolish. Simply the accumulated knowledge is not enough. He can eventually improve under the basis of a well known design but making successively a radically new one? I don't think it is possible or credible.

He have a success case in that regards improving under the basis of well known designs, and even that is pretty unusual, even if on this case it really happened. I am referring to Hanna's boat, the Boreal 44, but in this case the builder just improved details over well known boat typologies that were already expressed in boats like the OVNI or Allures. If he tried a completely different approach, like in this case, I bet he would be condemned to failure or at least would have to make many boats to finally get to a good an acceptably good boat in what regards performance, commodity and price.

He has taken a huge effort to make that boat and obviously spend a lot of money in it. He is not young, in some years when he is going to sell it we will only get a fraction of what it cost it to him, not to mention the thousands of hours he took to build it. I believe that like me, nobody would want a boat like that.

Boats like the Allures or Boreal are so good because there is a huge line of previous designs made by the same principles, many designed by the same NA, and they learn with each boat and the next is a bit better and so improvements have been introduced by several decades and dozens of designs.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Sternik said:


> Oh wow, even I did not know Scandinavia 30 is already in production. Little while back, they only had 26 and 27 - which are somewhat similar.
> 
> There is this video on YouTube promoting Polish boat-building industry.


Hi. thanks for posting

Jesus, I knew Poland was big in building boats but that BIG?!!!!

" 900 shipyards and boat builders, 22 000 boats a year and 95% exports" That's huge and I guess they are still beginning.

I guess that one of the limiting factors is that most boat builders are still being used as sub-contractors and the only exception regarding a big shipyard is Delphia. Most of the ones that are producing their own brands are doing so almost exclusively on the work of Polish NA. There are some good ones around but their work is just not just as bright and innovative as the work produced by some well known NA and NA firms that design for instance for the French or German shipyards.

The boats, most of them 30ft or smaller are nice but not properly innovative or better than French or Slovenian/Croatian boats. I hope that they change strategy and understand that design and innovation is a main factor on boat quality and that is something that small builders sometimes have difficulty in understanding, focusing mostly in quality and price. I bet that it will not take longer to change. There are already some Polish NA that have an huge experience like Andrzej Skrzat the designer of the the very nice Delphia 47, of your boat the Solina 27, has many other boats among them the Cobra. I would not call him innovative, but good certainly a very good one.

ANDRZEJ SKRZAT - YACHT DESIGNS

Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

Paulo, I fully agree with you. Orso bianco is a kind of Noah's ark (polar bears are neither fast, nor very good swimmers). I wonder why a well respected magazine like Vela has paid attention in five pages to this boat. When reading an article from a professional source one takes it for granted even when it defies physics and common sense. It is very much strange if you consider that the man has a diploma from the Academy of Fine Arts in Italy, a country where a lot of attention is paid to good design and velocity in terms of boat building. I would not want such a boat but will be curious to sail it in really bad weather in order to check whether it is really so much seaworthy and comfortable as claimed. 

Regards
Rumen


----------



## Sternik

Paulo,
Andrzej Skrzat is not the only famous polish NA, but definitely he is most recognised almost world-wide. For longest time, he fought "fierce battles" with Henryk Jaszczewski (His boats), and won after design of Tango 730, which very much literally left the competition behind. Jaszczewski has since retired. Another well known "veteran" is Jerzy Piesniewski, but he is mostly designing boats for internal market in Poland. On the other side, there are young NA such as Wojtek Spisak, who has designed Scandinavia line of boats, of which you have posted Scandinavia 30. There are others, but I can't recall their names. Oh, wait, Tomasz Siwik of TES Yachts has been building boats since late 70s.

Makes such as Delphia, Galeon, Antilla, Maxus, Phobos, Libra or Focus are at this moment fairly well recognised in Europe and featured at major boat shows in Europe. But I would say this only represents (my estimate) only about 20% of the market sales. The rest is building hulls/full vessels for well established builders, both sail and power. Brunswick Marine representing brands such as Bayliner and Quicksilver is building their boats in Poland, among other known "western" builders.


----------



## PCP

Sternik said:


> Paulo,
> Andrzej Skrzat is not the only famous polish NA, but definitely he is most recognised almost world-wide. For longest time, he fought "fierce battles" with Henryk Jaszczewski (His boats), and won after design of Tango 730, which very much literally left the competition behind. Jaszczewski has since retired. Another well known "veteran" is Jerzy Piesniewski, but he is mostly designing boats for internal market in Poland. On the other side, there are young NA such as Wojtek Spisak, who has designed Scandinavia line of boats, of which you have posted Scandinavia 30. There are others, but I can't recall their names. Oh, wait, Tomasz Siwik of TES Yachts has been building boats since late 70s.
> 
> ...


Thanks for information about Polish NA. However you have left at least one out and one that I particularly like, the one that designed the Mantra 28, Andrzej Arminski:

Andrzej Armiski - Projektowanie i budowa jachtw










Regards

Paulo


----------



## Sternik

Guilty as charged


----------



## PCP

olianta said:


> Paulo, I fully agree with you. Orso bianco is a kind of Noah's ark (polar bears are neither fast, nor very good swimmers). I wonder why a well respected magazine like Vela has paid attention in five pages to this boat. When reading an article from a professional source one takes it for granted even when it defies physics and common sense. It is very much strange if you consider that the man has a diploma from the Academy of Fine Arts in Italy, a country where a lot of attention is paid to good design and velocity in terms of boat building. I would not want such a boat but will be curious to sail it in really bad weather in order to check whether it is really so much seaworthy and comfortable as claimed.
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


The claims you have reported and that he made are probably true (if the boat is correctly designed in what regards stability ). It has to do with the type of boat. That type of boat, Aluminum centerboarders work that way, with all the ballast on the interior.

Many voyagers have used them and had verified their seaworthiness. As I have said, OVNI, Allures and Boreal are that type of boat. Neither of them is ugly and they sail pretty well.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mantra 31*



MrPelicano said:


> I, for one, am extremely impressed, by both the skill and confidence of the women, and by the performance of the boat. Too bad that I'm not able to understand the Polish commentary, although I did watch all the videos to the end. Now I will certainly be doing more research on this boat, although it is a bit smaller than I would prefer, since I am planning to go double-handed, not solo. However, I'm now thinking that 33-35ft might be adequate, whereas I had been thinking no shorter than 40ft, for speed, safety and comfort.
> 
> Please post any print or video reviews of the Mantra 28 if you should come across them (preferably in English, French or Spanish). Thank you very much for posting these inspirational videos.
> 
> MrP


I don't know what size of boat will fit your needs but if you want a bit bigger than the 28, the same designer has a beautiful 31 ft daysailer. If that size fits you maybe he is interested in transforming it on a cruiser. The boat has a huge B/D ratio and can be made very seaworthy for its size.




























He had also circumnavigated in a 40ft designed by himself. Since he is also the one that makes his boats maybe he is interested in making a bigger cruiser for offshore work on the Mantra series and you could be the first costumer. My be a good deal for both, I mean in what regards money for the boat.

If you want to contact him here are the contacts:

Andrzej Armi?ski - Projektowanie i budowa jachtów

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Only one and a half years later Najad is insolvent again...


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Only one and a half years later Najad is insolvent again...


Sad news

*Pleasure boat manufacturer Nord West & Najad in Henan, Orust have filed for bankruptcy. The company is one of Scandinavia's largest boat builders. It is unclear what bankruptcy means for business.

According to the company website it launched a new boat model in Gothenburg boat show a few weeks ago.

The company was formed when the boat manufacturer North West bought, in October 2012, Najad that bankrupted in 2011.

...
Najad had built boats in Henan on Orust in 40 years when the bankruptcy happened in 2011.

Nord West & Najad has over 140 employees and a turnover of over 300 million euros.

"The last three years, 60-70 percent of all jobs in the marine industry have disappeared. During this difficult time, the North West is not terminated any employees, but now they have therefore filed a bankruptcy petition," said GS unions negotiator, Kenneth Edvardsson to GP.
....
According to SAVE, the company's sales plummeted after the New Year. His assessment is that the business needs to bring in some new owners, who can finance it.

....

"The activity will be kept running barely so much you can ask for in this situation," said bankruptcy trustee Frederick Tengström, who took over responsibility for North West & Najad.

...
Mats Eriksson, CEO of Sweboat, boating Federation, is very surprised to Nord West & Najad gone bankrupt.

"First, we feel that it is a well-managed company, and also feels like the industry is at the end of the austerity program lasting five years., We are starting to see optimism," says Eriksson said.

He emphasizes, however, that the boat manufacturing requires that you have plenty of capital.
....
di.se*

I would say that it was predictable. The only way a smaller company like Nord West could have success with Najad was downsizing the company to market demand and then try to grow again. They have maintained all Najad employees (and I don't believe it was for their choice, but because they had too) on a company that has producing only a fraction that was producing some years ago. The results were as I said predictable.

Maybe the bankruptcy is a maneuver needed to re-scale the company and fire employees without having to pay impossible compensations.

Some hints on that new point to that. Anyway I wish them good look, a company that produced so many years boats with such an impeccable quality deserve to survive.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Najad, 40 years of story*

Now that they are in trouble (again) a little homage to those beautiful boats and to the ones that had designed and built them:


----------



## PCP

*Nh Fun 30 and Nautiner sailboats.*

Of course, another Polish brand and one also in the Dusseldorf boat show. They have a 30ft, much alike the other Polish 30ft, maybe a bit faster (they run a cup in Polland):

http://www.nautiner-yachts.pl/assets/uploads/yachts/nautiner30s/docs/PBO_test.pdf
























They dream of producing this 58ft (designed by another not mentioned Polish NA, Leszek Gonciarz)










But most of all they presented this beauty in Dusseldorf, the NH fun 30 that is without doubt different from the other Polish production:























































This is a very modern hull, designed by another non mentioned Polish NA Designer, Eugeniusz Ginter that designs also the 30fter.

I guess that this happens on this particular Polish company because one of the owners is Marek Stańczyk, a Polish sailing champion and also because they are just KIDS, full of energy. Take a look at the owners:










Cheers to them and may they succeed. Sailing needs new blood and innovative boats 

The NH Fun 30 should be a blast to sail. It is not only the hull that looks good, the dimensions also:

Maximum length (LOA)9 m
Maximum Beam (Bmax)2.92 m
Waterline length (LWL)8.92 m
Waterline Beam (WB)2.33 m
Draft - 1.8 m
Displacement 2100kg
Mainsail 25 m2
Foresail 20.8 m2
Spinnaker asymmetric100 m2
Crew: 2-6 people


----------



## PCP

*Faurby 360*

The most recent Faurby was also at Dusseldorf. A beautiful boat as all Faurby, relatively narrow (3.0m), light (5300kg) with a big B/D ratio (over 40%) and an interior oozing quality.

Not a big difference for the older 362 except a more modern transom. A classic high quality, a beauty for the ones that like narrow boats and have around 214000 for a basic version. With extras and no taxes, a boat to cost over 250 000 euros without taxes. Who said beauty comes cheap?























































And for the first time I guess that I can give you an idea of the interior craftsmanship and quality. Normal photos just don't are able to show that.

Look at this:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/fauby360e_.swf

And as you can see the boat goes upwind like a racer. Not bad for a classic


----------



## PCP

*Faurby 325 and 396*

Since we are talking about Faurby let's have a look at some other models, the 325 and the 396. All narrow boats with a great upwind performance:

The 325:











The 396:






and some nice images on a 363:


----------



## PCP

*Arcona 340*

Since we are talking about Nordic boats and small boats, it is in order to see some movies with the Arcona 340. He had talked recently about its great sail performance, let's see some movies. Pity the wind is always light. We can see how well it sails with very light winds. It is a fast and beautiful boat with a high quality interior
















Finally, a comparison with other two great 34fts, as fast as the Arcona and with as good interiors. Of course, quality cost money and all this boats are expensive boats.


----------



## PCP

*X 34 and Finnflyer*

And a better look at those other two, the X 34 that should be substituted soon and the finnflyer 34. I confess I am partial with the Finnflyer. The Arcona 340 is beautiful but the Finflyer 34 is....sexy? What a boat

Let's start with the X 34. Sorry about the image quality but I guess you would want to see the little boat doing 15K downwind as if it was nothing


----------



## PCP

*Some action:*

A best of from the last Volvo:






and the three last numbers of Regatta magazine. I know it is in French but there are some that can understand and the others can see the great images:


----------



## hannah2

Thanks PCP for all the great videos. I don't get much chance to look anymore as we are very busy with the boat as time is coming fast. This week it is electronics taking up our time making sure the company knows exactly what we want and how we want it done. Hope you are also about ready for your summer.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 38*

First pictures of the boat on the water and soon a test review on Yacht.de magazine. I guess that with this one Dehler will be out of the hook. It seems to me a great boat, much better in what regards interior than the 41. I saw the boat in Dusseldorf and had confirmed that (visited also the 41). I guess it is going to sell very well, and deserves it. Contrary of other boats on this segment the boat can be delivered in two versions, with two or three cabins,

A two cabin version is the way to go in what regards extensive cruising and will provide all storage space needed.

What can I say more? A beautiful and fast boat with a great stability that will be sold in two apparently equal versions, one very accessible and another one expensive. One will have a lead keel, epoxy cored hull over airex (or similar) a bigger mast and the other one will have a cored hull with normal resins over a balsa core, Iron keel, smaller mast.

The first one will be enough for most cruisers and I expect it to be the most sold by far. Regarding competition the main one will be from the Salona 38, a more traditional boat in the hull and interiors that regards price has a version correspondent to the basic one from Dehler cheaper and has a version correspondent to the top one from Dehler at the same price as the basic Dehler version. The Salona will have the added advantage of the stainless steel keel structure for the keel and shrouds but I never heard any complaints about Dehler solidity.

Both great boats, no doubt and the right choice in this market segment for a cruiser. A racer (if it had the money) would opt by the XP 38, but the interior is less adapted for cruising and the boat has only a three cabin version, with a smaller saloon. We could join the Elan 380 but I guess that the boat will be one of the next to be substituted on the Elan line.

Have a look:


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> Thanks PCP for all the great videos. I don't get much chance to look anymore as we are very busy with the boat as time is coming fast. This week it is electronics taking up our time making sure the company knows exactly what we want and how we want it done. Hope you are also about ready for your summer.
> Cheers
> Steve


Hi Steve,

I have come work to be done on the boat (holding lines and permanent jack lines) and some other more work I can do in 15 days. No, what I am doing is preparing the 4 months cruise and that takes time if that is in Greece. Too much options and a constant wind demands a careful preparation.

Regarding sails, I am gathering information (I have several quotes). Maybe we can share information about prices and materials/sail makers? My sails are about the same size as yours, the price should be approximately the same and I guess both want the sails for the same use.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Route du Rhum 2014*

Now that I have convinced most of you that the "Vendee Globe" is a fantastic race I would like to convince you that "The Route du Rhum" is not a lesser race. In fact, this one the Vendee and the VOR are my favorite races.

I guess most of you didn't heard about this race.Why is it outstanding? Well, the number of racers, the quality (all the best) and the quality of the boats (the best), I mean the best among solo sailors because this is a solo Transat race that takes place in November each 4 years.

Regarding the number of sailboats, on the lastrace you had almost 90 boats. There are sailraces with a lot more, but none with so many pure top racing boats and so many professional racers. Here the cruiser-racers are a very small minority and in fact they are in the same category of other racing boats that don't fit in the different classes:

*This event is open to multihulls and monohulls, which are divided into several classes according to their overall length (LOA):

MULTIHULLS:

ULTIMATE classLOA in excess of or equal to 60 foot without a size limit.

Multi 50 classsuch as those set down in the Multi 50 Class Multihull Rules.

MONOHULLS:

IMOCA class (Open 60's) such as those set down in the IMOCA Rules

Rhum Category LOA between 39' and 59'.

Class 40such as those set down in the Class 40 Rules.*

Have a look at the history of the race:

Route du Rhum - La Banque Postale 2014 Official Web site

I guess that it only lacks one thing to this race to be absolutely perfect: An unlimited class to Monohulls.

Anyway it is already pretty crazy an unlimited class for multihulls. Last year Frank Cammas won the unlimited race sailing the giant Groupama trimaran that was used previously to beat the world record circumnavigation, with a big crew. Not even the crew of Groupama thought that it was possible to sail that boat alone. Well, impossible for almost all, not to Frank Cammas.

Last year the other giant trimaran, the one that holds now the World circumnavigation record, Banque Populaire, was prevented to enter since they had mechanical help in what regards winches. I guess this year someone will be mad enough to sail that boat without any help. There are also a new one, Prince de la Bretagne.

Then you have the Open 60's. All the best will be there.

Then you have one of the most spectacular (and dangerous classes) the Multi 50. The boats are very light and powerful without the huge RM of the big trimarans. To race this boats at top level is a sort of acrobatic feat. They are many times on the limit and that is the class with more capsizes and breakage, but also one of the most spectacular.

Then you have the 40class, the one with more boats, at least 25. All the best young sailors will be there.

Then you have the Rhum category that I think it should be open to all class of sailboats over 39ft that don't fit the other classes but that unfortunatelly is limited to monohulls between 39 and 59ft.

The race has a huge tradition (see history on the link above) and teams are already training for the BIG ONE.

Some Images, let's start with that 50ft multihull Class that I find quite incredible (very tricky to sail):


----------



## PCP

*Route du Rhum*

Probably the class that is more important to the public is the one that is going to finish first in real time, the unlimited multihull class and among those the giant ones. They are not so spectacular as the Multi 50 but it is a huge feat to be able to sail one of those monsters solo. Here are the main contenders:



















































and a brand new one:


----------



## PCP

*Route du Rum 2014*

Some very interesting news:

Armel le Cleach the one that finish 2th on the Vendee Globe is going to race (solo) Le Route du Rhum on a Maxi trimaran. Banque Populaire bought Groupama 3 and the one that is going to sail it is Armel. Good luck to him in taming that monster.

Another interesting new, Coville is trying to buy Geronimo. He wants a bigger (34m) and faster boat. If he buys it I believe the boat is going to be modified not only to solo sailing but also in regards a hydrodynamic update. The boat beat in 2004 with Olivier de Kersauson the world circumnavigation record.

Some numbers regarding the race:

Last edition the number of visitants on the race "village": 1 200 000

5000 press articles.

80 tv hours.

Some sponsors talk about a 300% return on the investment.

That's the only way to have a really big race and professional sailors: Having a positive return to the investment of sponsors is a necessary condition for having so many expensive and sophisticated race sailing machines.

Contrary to many other sail races this is not a millionaires race but one among professional racers that race in boats owned by sponsors.

...


----------



## PCP

*Route du Rhum*

And to finish with this series of posts about the BIG transat, just a few videos more. Some regarding the other two major classes, mono-hulls this time and about the class that is most intended for good amateurs.

About the Open60 class, after the Vendee Globe, I guess that all know what it is about, just to say that all the best are here and that on the race they fought a very informal and unofficial battle against the Multi50 class. When the weather is fine and it is all downwind the 50ft trimarans have no problem to win that battle but when the weather is bad (and that is usual in the first part of the race) and there is a lot of upwind sailing, things get balanced.

When there are bad weather, as last year, it is a lot more easy to drive an Open60 trough heavy seas, even on autopilot. A 50ft trimarans require the skipper to be all times at the rudder or then to slow down a lot. The boat is also more uncomfortable and if care is not taken subject to break more easely.

Last year only the great Escoffier and his beautiful "Crepes whaou" managed (not for much) to beat the first Open60. After that several Open 60 arrived before arrived another Multi50. And that's only half the story because these guys don't like to be overtaken, not even by a bigger monohull, so in the effort to prevent that 2 broke the boats (and both made it home at slow speed) and another one capsized (if I remember it right).

Some movies with Open 60 boats, just three for the ones that don't know what it is about. The first one is an old one, with an older boat but it really gives a pretty good idea why these boats have an advantage in bad weather:
















the 40class racers:











About the performance of these babies on Transats it is good to remember the last ARC where a 40class racer with a small crew beat a fully crewed Swan 80 and won the racing class (real time).

And then you have the open class for boats between 39 and 59, a class mostly for amateurs with some Open50 an 40 in the mix. The most interesting thing on this class is to see how cruising boats or modified cruising boats perform against racing boats. Last year we had a modified RM 1350 (without much of the interior) that was making a great race till he was forced to give up with electrical problems and on another edition we had a standard Cigale 16 making a great race.

Now just imagine almost 90 of these animals, all classes together, speeding in a Transat in Novemmber, when the weather is particularly nasty in the North Atlantic and you can imagine the spectacle. Some teasers from the race:











Well, if you are not convinced that this race is a major one and an enthusiastic one, definitively you don't like sailboat racing. If you like it, you can follow the comments here about it. All of the best solo sailors are already focused on this one, trying to find faster boats, looking for sponsors and training. I will keep you guys posted about it because anyway I am going to be informed. I am a big fan of this race

...


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 38*

First movie with the Dehler 38 on the water. It looks good even if that large closed transom looks a bit visually heavy to me.


----------



## PCP

*M32 Foiling*

They found out that is possible with the actual daggerboards that were not made for that. I will bet that in no time we would have modified daggerboards that will make this boat "fly". That should be a lot of fun






Marstrom M32 - Grey Winter Foiling in Italy with Two Reefs - Team Lööf from Free Productions on Vimeo.


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Dehler 38*



PCP said:


> First movie with the Dehler 38 on the water. It looks good even if that large closed transom looks a bit visually heavy to me.


It looks like a nice boat and having sailed older Dehlers extensively, I trust performace is once again better than average.

But I also don't like this trend of bathing platforms that double as a closed transom. I don't think it is any safer and an open transom gives the best possible acces to the sea anyway.

The interior looks very nice and clever, except for the chart table .

These hinged panels hiding the instruments have sharp edges and are very vulnerable when opened. In anything but calm seas, the navigator is going to get hurt by these panels or the panels will be destroyed by the navigator, probably both .

I'm afraid this is a growing trend: designs that look well at boat shows, work well at port or at anchor, but are not seaworthy. It's a pity even a reputated brand such as Dehler seems to pay more attention marketeers than to NA's .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dehler 38*



EricKLYC said:


> ...
> 
> The interior looks very nice and clever, except for the chart table .
> 
> These hinged panels hiding the instruments have sharp edges and are very vulnerable when opened. In anything but calm seas, the navigator is going to get hurt by these panels or the panels will be destroyed by the navigator, probably both .
> 
> ...


I agree with you on that. It is not the chart table per se but that panel. The boat even has good holding points but you are right if someone holds itself on that panel it is going to break. But I guess that sailors are also responsible for a lot of nonsense regarding where they want navigation instruments on a sailboat. In fact today plotters are used mostly on coastal navigation and on coastal navigation it makes sense the plotter near the helmsman. The same with the VHF.

When doing offshore navigation, I mean crossing Oceans everybody uses a laptop for navigation and that is the only kind of navigation where you can be inside the boat for a considerable time. The use of computer is necessary not only to receive and decode Gribs as also to run routing programs.

99% of the boats are used mostly on coastal conditions, even if occasionally sail offshore and that has to be taken in account when designing a standard navigation set up (that eventually can be changed for the few that want a boat mostly for offshore use).

In fact that configuration, that is not only used on the Dehler but on most cruising boats makes no sense but clients still want to have a lot of instruments near the chart table, as if the boat was a ship and the boat was effectively sailed from that place.

Salona is one of the few performance cruisers that have as an option decently designed pods for instruments near the two wheels. They have done that at my request for the 38 I was going to buy. Well, I did not bought the boat but they have used them on the 35. I am not sure if that is a popular option. I guess that many still prefer to have the plotter inside.










Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 41*

Talking about Salona, a test on the 41 by a NZ sailing magazine:

http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/Boating New Zealand 01-2013.pdf

I love that boat and I know what I am talking about. I sailed one for a week.

And regarding Salona, the 35 has won its first victory on the Hamble Winter Series while the older 34 continues to win, this time in Finland and with incredible results in real time too. The boat was only beaten, and not for much by a X35 (a race boat) beat two other X35, a Finnflyer 36, a A40 and a Finngulf 41 among others and I mean in real time because in compensated it was way ahead of everybody.

http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/Contest Results.pdf

That should be a hell of a crew and this was not a short race, they had taken about 16 hours to finish it.

...


----------



## PCP

*Bay Raider*

Some pages back we talked about Drascombe, a sweet old traditional open boat that today is everywhere. Let me talk of another one that is also around the world, a slightly more modern one with a small cabin. I guess with this one a young guy can have a lot of fun and go along the shore a long way. It sails well too.






The boat has very interesting stability characteristics for this kind of boat due to ballast tanks:


----------



## Classic30

PCP said:


> Some pages back we talked about Drascombe, a sweet old traditional open boat that today is everywhere. Let me talk of another one that is also around the world, a slightly more modern one with a small cabin. I guess with this one a young guy can have a lot of fun and go along the shore a long way. It sails well too.


Nice! 

Looks a lot better as an open boat without that stupid (and useless) cabin.. as shown in the last vid.


----------



## PCP

Hartley18 said:


> Nice!
> 
> Looks a lot better as an open boat without that stupid (and useless) cabin.. as shown in the last vid.


I agree that the boat looks better without cabin but if I had 20 years old I would have chosed the one with the cabin.

I agree that on the movie the interior of the cabin looks odd, it seems to miss something, but on the site we can see this photo. I guess it is enough for two for sleeping.










I can imagine myself going along a shore and stopping in rivers or beaches for sleeping. That cabin beats a tent

They have a new model (bay cruiser), just a feet longer, with a more modern rig, carbon and all. The boat looks good and the cabin is a lot bigger but I guess it is considerably more expensive.











Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

*Re: Dehler 38*



PCP said:


> I agree with you on that. It is not the chart table per se but that panel. The boat even has good holding points but you are right if someone holds itself on that panel it is going to break. But I guess that sailors are also responsible for a lot of nonsense regarding where they want navigation instruments on a sailboat. In fact today plotters are used mostly on coastal navigation and on coastal navigation it makes sense the plotter near the helmsman. The same with the VHF.
> 
> When doing offshore navigation, I mean crossing Oceans everybody uses a laptop for navigation and that is the only kind of navigation where you can be inside the boat for a considerable time. The use of computer is necessary not only to receive and decode Gribs as also to run routing programs.
> 
> 99% of the boats are used mostly on coastal conditions, even if occasionally sail offshore and that has to be taken in account when designing a standard navigation set up (that eventually can be changed for the few that want a boat mostly for offshore use).
> 
> In fact that configuration, that is not only used on the Dehler but on most cruising boats makes no sense but clients still want to have a lot of instruments near the chart table, as if the boat was a ship and the boat was effectively sailed from that place.
> 
> Salona is one of the few performance cruisers that have as an option decently designed pods for instruments near the two wheels. They have done that at my request for the 38 I was going to buy. Well, I did not bought the boat but they have used them on the 35. I am not sure if that is a popular option. I guess that many still prefer to have the plotter inside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo and Erik

I have to say that if the Dehler 38 was gifted to me that I would be a very happy sailor. I love the design both interior and exterior.

What struck me as odd though was that there is no standard bowsprit on a performance cruiser - come on guys, get with the program!

Personally I like the folding down platform particularly when sailing with the family and their are kids involved. Also at an anchorage, it is simply the best. If you want to go racing, then you just remove it and leave it open. The Dufour 36 has this flexibility built into the design crossover concept which I personally think is the way forward.

Coming back to the Salona, I have to confess that like you Paulo, I think this is a company with a very smart strategy in a market in which it is very difficult to distinguish one cruiser from the next. I posted this on the Hanse forum the other day which talks about the Salona 35.

One brand which I have followed for some time and which I particularly like for many reasons is Salona. They seem to have a very clear strategy and have differentiated themselves in a market where it is increasingly difficult to distinguish one boat from the other. Their strategy seems to be

- employ a recognized NA and interior designer
- enter high profile regattas to get their brand out there and better known by winning them
- enter their boats in the prestigious European Yacht of the Year. Competition. The Salona 37 won this competition some years back
- target the performance cruiser segment of the market only. You can order a Salona that is race ready or performance cruiser ready. The difference is in the weight of the hull, carbon rig, deeper draught, better deckware, better sails etc etc
- they are happy to customize their boats to a degree for their customers. For example if you want a higher B/D ratio,then they will increase the weight of the keel - their hulls can handle it
- they use a stainless steel backbone that Hanse used to have in their H462 which takes the loads from the keel and the standing rigging
- adding layers of carbon fibre on areas of the hull for further strengthening
- they have waterproof front and rear sections to protect the boat against impact, including the area around the rudder stock
- their manufacturing process is so good that Sydney Yachts have just agreed a deal for Salona to manufacture them
- their interior joinery is considered by many to be a cut above
- they offer incredible value for money considering what you are getting. The new Salona 35 with twin wheels, recessed traveller in the cockpit retails for around Euro100,000

I would say that Hanse should be looking to re-introduce those competitive advantages that they had in the past. Like epoxy and the backbone. Otherwise they will be grouped in the AWB category and be competing on price.

Cheers

David


----------



## PCP

*Salona Yachts*



daviid said:


> ...
> 
> Coming back to the Salona, I have to confess that like you Paulo, I think this is a company with a very smart strategy in a market in which it is very difficult to distinguish one cruiser from the next. I posted this on the Hanse forum the other day which talks about the Salona 35.
> 
> One brand which I have followed for some time and which I particularly like for many reasons is Salona. They seem to have a very clear strategy and have differentiated themselves in a market where it is increasingly difficult to distinguish one boat from the other. Their strategy seems to be
> 
> - employ a recognized NA and interior designer
> - enter high profile regattas to get their brand out there and better known by winning them
> - enter their boats in the prestigious European Yacht of the Year. Competition. The Salona 37 won this competition some years back
> - target the performance cruiser segment of the market only. You can order a Salona that is race ready or performance cruiser ready. The difference is in the weight of the hull, carbon rig, deeper draught, better deckware, better sails etc etc
> - they are happy to customize their boats to a degree for their customers. For example if you want a higher B/D ratio,then they will increase the weight of the keel - their hulls can handle it
> - they use a stainless steel backbone that Hanse used to have in their H462 which takes the loads from the keel and the standing rigging
> - adding layers of carbon fibre on areas of the hull for further strengthening
> - they have waterproof front and rear sections to protect the boat against impact, including the area around the rudder stock
> - their manufacturing process is so good that Sydney Yachts have just agreed a deal for Salona to manufacture them
> - their interior joinery is considered by many to be a cut above
> - they offer incredible value for money considering what you are getting. The new Salona 35 with twin wheels, recessed traveller in the cockpit retails for around Euro100,000
> 
> I would say that Hanse should be looking to re-introduce those competitive advantages that they had in the past. Like epoxy and the backbone. Otherwise they will be grouped in the AWB category and be competing on price.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> David


Hi David,

I disagree with you on one thing: *"employ a recognized NA"*. That was before I mean they used J & J design as you say a recognized European office that among others designed the Shipman line:

http://www.shipman.dk/_PDF/shipman63.pdf

Seaway

But now they are working with a much less known NA, Ker. Well not well known among the public..... because he is just one of the best, among the very few that are on the top edge of design in what regards sailboat performance.

Ker Yacht Design

The Ker 40 is probably the fastest 40ft race boat and just look at this list of victories:

Results | Ker Yacht Design

By the way the Sydney are designed by Ker also and the performance cruiser Sydney GTS 43 that won last year's edition of the Sydney Hobart race (in compensated) finishing among 60fts.

Ker, being on the other side of the world, has been called mostly by the racing community to design their boats. He has designed some very fast performance cruisers but till know he was not called by any major brand to design their line. Well, not anymore. He is the designer that works for Salona regarding theit future line. He developed the keels and rudders on the 35 and 38 (the hull is still an older J&J design) and the first boat designed entirely by him is the 60ft that is almost finished. It seems it will be followed by a 50ft.

It is hard to wait some years to see what it is going to be the new Ker designed Salona line in what regards smaller sailboats

Salona has recently introduced a Geenaker "pole" as an option.They have opted for a carbon one, that include the anchor stand. I had asked that for the 38 (they had none at the time) and talked personally with their in house designer, that is a very good one, regarding the options. I have discussed the several possibilities with them, including a moving pole but that has the disadvantage to "enter" in the front cabin and also it is prone to small water infiltration to the boat interior. I like their solution, that is similar as the one used by X yachts. Have a look at the geenaker pole on a 41:










You can see it better on this movie on a 35.






Another piece that was designed and discussed for my boat was the outside table (have a look at the movie). It is a easily removable table but that in position it is strong, does not occupy much space and offers a very good holding bar.

There is also another important point, one that was common to Hanse : the possibility of having a boat made with epoxy resins. Hanse does not offer that option anymore but it is a very good option that allows a stronger, lighter and above all, an waterproof boat.

Connected with customization there is another relevant point: They really like to discuss the boat with you, at least with me that was the feeling. They are modest, knowledgeable and really like you to visit their shipyard and to explain everything to you. All the advantages of a small firm with the prices of a mass production boat

Regarding to Hanse I think that those changes in policy regarding options and quality materials have to do with them owning several brands. If you want a better quality cruising sailboat, buy a Moody. If you want a performance cruiser, buy the Dehler. If you don't have the money for one or another, buy an Hanse. Yes the Hanse is definitively competing in price with Oceanis, Bavaria, Jeanneau and Dufour. even so it offers interesting boats with a better stability than most the competition. I still think that their worse point is the interior design. The Germans never had been very good at that but Bavaria has improved. I can only hope Hanse will do the same, the boats deserve it and Dehler is showing the way.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Here's something that should qualify as 'interesting'.... the build is well underway.

The SLIVER Project - YACHT DESIGN


----------



## PCP

*The Silver one.*



Faster said:


> Here's something that should qualify as 'interesting'.... the build is well underway.
> 
> The SLIVER Project - YACHT DESIGN







































Certainly a beautiful boat and also an extreme boat regarding several counts:

A 60ft day sailor, very narrow with a small long interior, a big draft and a nice narrow deep bulbed keel.

This is a sailboat that will need a relatively small sail area relatively to its length, a boat that will take advantage of a big LOA and relatively big LWL to be a fast boat, particularly upwind. The narrow hull will not generate a lot of form stability, it is a boat that needs to heel to create RM. With any considerable amount of wind this boat will go fast upwind but with a lot of heel.

I understand and respect the intention to make the boat accordingly with semiotic image of a past traditional model, a long canoe body. That gives a beautiful boat but that double end takes away the possibility of increasing that already small for stability, particularly downwind.

Here you have another American very marrow boat, certainly more sportive, using a shape of hull and transom that will provide more form stability:






But the Silver is a very particular boat certainly for a very particular owner to whom maximizing performance will not be central, neither the interior space in what regards pleasantness or space volume or the possibility to sail in not deep waters. Probably beauty, pleasure of sailing and easy speed are what the owner wants and I have no doubt the boat will provide that.

Anyway, talking about an one off is completely different than talking about a production model. A production model is made to please to a market segment, a one off is made to please a owner. If the owner is completely satisfied and his dreams were fulfilled, than it is a great boat even if it will not please or satisfy the needs of any other sailor. Regarding a production model, it is more complicated since the designer is not trying to satisfy only one client but the needs and desires of many people.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

*Re: Salona Yachts*



PCP said:


> Hi David,
> 
> I disagree with you on one thing: *"employ a recognized NA"*. That was before I mean they used J & J design as you say a recognized European office that among others designed the Shipman line:
> 
> http://www.shipman.dk/_PDF/shipman63.pdf
> 
> Seaway
> 
> But now they are working with a much less known NA, Ker. Well not well known among the public..... because he is just one of the best, among the very few that are on the top edge of design in what regards sailboat performance.
> 
> Ker Yacht Design
> 
> The Ker 40 is probably the fastest 40ft race boat and just look at this list of victories:
> 
> Results | Ker Yacht Design
> 
> By the way the Sydney are designed by Ker also and the performance cruiser Sydney GTS 43 that won last year's edition of the Sydney Hobart race (in compensated) finishing among 60fts.
> 
> Ker, being on the other side of the world, has been called mostly by the racing community to design their boats. He has designed some very fast performance cruisers but till know he was not called by any major brand to design their line. Well, not anymore. He is the designer that works for Salona regarding theit future line. He developed the keels and rudders on the 35 and 38 (the hull is still an older J&J design) and the first boat designed entirely by him is the 60ft that is almost finished. It seems it will be followed by a 50ft.
> 
> It is hard to wait some years to see what it is going to be the new Ker designed Salona line in what regards smaller sailboats
> 
> Salona has recently introduced a Geenaker "pole" as an option.They have opted for a carbon one, that include the anchor stand. I had asked that for the 38 (they had none at the time) and talked personally with their in house designer, that is a very good one, regarding the options. I have discussed the several possibilities with them, including a moving pole but that has the disadvantage to "enter" in the front cabin and also it is prone to small water infiltration to the boat interior. I like their solution, that is similar as the one used by X yachts. Have a look at the geenaker pole on a 41:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see it better on this movie on a 35.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another piece that was designed and discussed for my boat was the outside table (have a look at the movie). It is a easily removable table but that in position it is strong, does not occupy much space and offers a very good holding bar.
> 
> There is also another important point, one that was common to Hanse : the possibility of having a boat made with epoxy resins. Hanse does not offer that option anymore but it is a very good option that allows a stronger, lighter and above all, an waterproof boat.
> 
> Connected with customization there is another relevant point: They really like to discuss the boat with you, at least with me that was the feeling. They are modest, knowledgeable and really like you to visit their shipyard and to explain everything to you. All the advantages of a small firm with the prices of a mass production boat
> 
> Regarding to Hanse I think that those changes in policy regarding options and quality materials have to do with them owning several brands. If you want a better quality cruising sailboat, buy a Moody. If you want a performance cruiser, buy the Dehler. If you don't have the money for one or another, buy an Hanse. Yes the Hanse is definitively competing in price with Oceanis, Bavaria, Jeanneau and Dufour. even so it offers interesting boats with a better stability than most the competition. I still think that their worse point is the interior design. The Germans never had been very good at that but Bavaria has improved. I can only hope Hanse will do the same, the boats deserve it and Dehler is showing the way.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

One observation about Salona. They like to keep using their older hulls to save on costs. They did this with the Salona 38 which used the hull of the Salona 37 and the same for the Salona 35 which uses the hull from the Salona 34. Bavaria have done the same with the new cruiser 33 which uses the hull from the Cruiser 32. Both companies have changed the coachroof a lot to give a totally different look. I think that the hull shape on the Salonas looks a little dated but I am being picky.

Another innovation that I really like is from Élan who have a fold up table in the cockpit. Really easy to stow and to erect. Also, I think that recessed travelers in the cockpit should become standard across the range for Salona.

I love the bowsprit on the Salona 41 which doesn't seem to have a bob stay because it is in carbon.

Just my thought ...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Salona Yachts*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> One observation about Salona. They like to keep using their older hulls to save on costs. They did this with the Salona 38 which used the hull of the Salona 37 and the same for the Salona 35 which uses the hull from the Salona 34. Bavaria have done the same with the new cruiser 33 which uses the hull from the Cruiser 32. Both companies have changed the coachroof a lot to give a totally different look. I think that the hull shape on the Salonas looks a little dated but I am being picky.
> 
> Another innovation that I really like is from Élan who have a fold up table in the cockpit. Really easy to stow and to erect. Also, I think that recessed travelers in the cockpit should become standard across the range for Salona.
> 
> I love the bowsprit on the Salona 41 which doesn't seem to have a bob stay because it is in carbon.
> 
> Just my thought ...


Regarding maintaining the hulls of the previous boats (37 ans 34 and 42) on the 38, 35 and 41, that hull design is 7 or 8 years old. They modified the transoms, keels and rudders as well as the cabins. It talked with them about it and they said, with some reason, that the previous models are winning races and that some new buyers had the previous models and what they want is the same type of boat but faster with a better interior, that means lighter and with better keel and ruder design since the hull is still up to date.

I guess you are confusing hulls designed to perform better on certain conditions with out dated hulls. I guess you are talking about hulls with all beam brought aft, like on the Dehler. That will improve downwind control and stability (to an extent) but it will be detrimental for upwind performance and pointing ability. It all has to do with the balance on the boat in what regards performance.

Have a look at a slightly out dated hull, the one from the First 40.7, a recent boat with a great performance:










And now have a look at the hull shape of the Italia 13.98 (European boat of the year 2013):










a look of one of the best recent racing boat, the J111 (2011?):










and a look at the Salona 35 and 41:



















See what I mean? Of course these are only 2D shapes but I guess that they are enough to give you a general idea.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Broadblue Rapier 400*

Very nice cat, a light and one with a not big lateral surface (windage). They don't give sail area but I bet that it is a fast one.














































































This is a class A boat and compared with a Lagoon 400, it will be a much faster boat...but it would have more stability regarding offshore use?






Well, I would much prefer a Rapier 400 than a Lagoon 400 but regarding that question I would say that the Lagoon has a lot more stability.

Sure, it has a bigger windage but it will not be enough, not by far, for compensate the Rapier lesser beam and much lesser weight.

The Lagoon has 7.25m of beam and 10348kg as displacement. The Rappier 400 has 6.7m of beam and displaces 5000kg.

They have two versions, one open, with just a fixed big Dodger, a bit kind of an Amel type and one enclosed. I like more the Open one, with less weight up and with a better visibility to the helmsman but in what regards functionality and living aboard the closed one is obviously better but than that wheel position does not make much sense anymore.

A very interesting boat nonetheless and one that should be fun sailing.


----------



## daviid

*Re: Salona Yachts*



PCP said:


> Regarding maintaining the hulls of the previous boats (37 ans 34 and 42) on the 38, 35 and 41, that hull design is 7 or 8 years old. They modified the transoms, keels and rudders as well as the cabins. It talked with them about it and they said, with some reason, that the previous models are winning races and that some new buyers had the previous models and what they want is the same type of boat but faster with a better interior, that means lighter and with better keel and ruder design since the hull is still up to date.
> 
> I guess you are confusing hulls designed to perform better on certain conditions with out dated hulls. I guess you are talking about hulls with all beam brought aft, like on the Dehler. That will improve downwind control and stability (to an extent) but it will be detrimental for upwind performance and pointing ability. It all has to do with the balance on the boat in what regards performance.
> 
> See what I mean? Of course these are only 2D shapes but I guess that they are enough to give you a general idea.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

I know that the older hulls perform very well and like you i also prefer a more moderate beam. To be honest you have educated me over many posts to understand the advantages and disadvantages of a wider beam taken all the way back versus a more moderate beam. If I were in the market for a new boat, then I would also look for a moderate beam with a moderate freeboard, fine lines of entry with a forefoot that is not too shallow and a hull with some rocker. What I find missing from these older hulls is a chine which assists form stability as you know but which I like the look of. Also I find that in the Salona 35 that the coach roof is too rounded for my liking. A more modern approach would be to have it flatter. Also, i like the option of a bathing platfrom with integrated ladder for chilling at thatbanchorage after you have arrived befiore everyone else :laugher

What I am on about is aesthetics more than anything else.

A brilliant boat though and like the Dehler, if it found its way onto my berth, I would be one happy sailor.

David


----------



## bjung

Last nights incident off Ca, (1 dead, 5 rescued after abandoning racing sailboat off Southern California - The Washington Post )made me take a closer look at this little rocket.The Columbia 32
She does look fast and fragile.
"Race with the big boys at a fraction of the price and steal their thunder."


----------



## PCP

*Hull Shapes and Beam.*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> I know that the older hulls perform very well and like you i also prefer a more moderate beam. To be honest you have educated me over many posts to understand the advantages and disadvantages of a wider beam taken all the way back versus a more moderate beam. If I were in the market for a new boat, then I would also look for a moderate beam with a moderate freeboard, fine lines of entry with a forefoot that is not too shallow and a hull with some rocker. What I find missing from these older hulls is a chine which assists form stability as you know but which I like the look of. Also I find that in the Salona 35 that the coach roof is too rounded for my liking. A more modern approach would be to have it flatter. Also, i like the option of a bathing platfrom with integrated ladder for chilling at thatbanchorage after you have arrived befiore everyone else :laugher
> 
> What I am on about is aesthetics more than anything else.
> 
> A brilliant boat though and like the Dehler, if it found its way onto my berth, I would be one happy sailor.
> 
> David


You are right about the chines and it is not only related to aesthetics but significant in what regards to increase hull stability at utilizable angles. Its importance is relative but it is one of the many little improvements that makes a boat better. Another one is twin rudders. Dehler has not them Elan and other cruisers have already them. It's importance can be relative to racing but not for cruising since it just gives more control over the boat with significant less effort on the rudder and with less deeper rudders.

Regrading beam brought back, as you have seen on those pictures, even when it is not all brought back there is a noticeable difference in design regarding 15 year old designed boats. Regarding the ones that have them all brought back that is so in what regards Max beam but not beam at the water line. It is a pity they don't give usually that measure because it would show significant differences. Boats can have max beam brought almost all back and have completely different hulls on what regards the under-body at and near the transom. And finally you have beam that it is not related with the beam brought back as many seem to think.

Well, not finally because the final chapter should go with preferences regarding aesthetics that as you say are important, I would say very important even if slightly irrational I would say irrational because what should be logical was one to like what is functional to him and his sailing but we know it does not work that way. Regarding functionality what you say regarding the bathing platform make all sense...I just hate the inelegant big fat ass that they visually give to a sailboat with all beam brought aft. That could be solved with a 180º pivoting platform but till know no one come with the idea.

Regarding hulls like the ones on the J boats or the Salona, versus equally moderated beam boats with all the beam brought aft I would say that even if with a crew they can result in a better performance, That would not be the case with a short crew or solo. So, even if in a well designed hull that would not make a big difference, in what regards cruising it makes sense to have a beam all brought back even if at the cost of a slight loss of performance. The slightly superior control will justify that. In what regards aesthetics every one has his own likings but what is true is that all beam brought aft will provide a very large cockpit at the steering post (unless a rudder is used) and that can be dis-comfortable and less safe. That is even more true in boats with a big beam.

Regarding beam I would say that narrow beams are very much a minority in what regards cruiser likings. They will provide a specially good boat upwind (and a comfortable one in what regards sea motion) but a boat with less interior space and most of all a boat the heels a lot.

It seems that the preference of cruisers go to beamy boats, the ones that sail with less heel and are especially easy to control and sail in any point of sail except upwind (they can sail upwind but not as well as less beamy boats), specially with the beam brought back. As most cruisers go against the wind motoring it makes perfect sense having those boats as the mainstream market for cruisers. It makes also sense as fast boats for voyaging since voyagers take most of the times the trade winds and go downwind most of the time.

There are some parallel here with the rigging of old tall sailing ships. Almost all of them had square sails and just one or two latin sails to go really against the wind if needed to. They used that rig because it was the best to go downwind even if that was a poor rig to go upwind. They had rigs that performed much better upwind but they just did not use them because almost all sailing was done on the trade winds were the square sail rig was more efficient. We can argue the same way regarding beamy boats versus narrower boats for voyaging.

For the ones that really go upwind, or sail in areas of very variable winds a less beamy boat makes sense. Many performance cruisers, specially all that are intended also to perform at some club regattas opt for this type of moderate beam. The boats sail with less heel than the narrow ones and with more than the beamy ones. They are also more comfortable in a seaway upwind.

They can offer the better overall performance, even downwind but in this case at the cost of a more difficult control. Even so the downwind control will be far superior than on the narrow ones. Beam is a big factor in what regards stability, the major one at low angles of heel and downwind you want a rock steady boat and not a boat that rolls a lot when waves are hitting the boat laterally.

On a narrow boat, because form stability is a lot less, only a very good wheelsman can prevent that rool movement because if it it is not immediately corrected by the rudder the boat needs to heel to get the RM from the ballast and that can cause an oscillating dangerous pendulous movement. A beamy boat can go safely in autopilot in conditions a narrower boat needs someone experienced at the wheel, and even so...it is less easy or safer.

It is all a question of balance in what regards the use the boat will have ant the performances one wants to see maximizing. No wrong or right here, except if one buys a boat not suited for him or the type of sailing he wants to do...and here aesthetics can be dangerous because they can lead you to a boat that is not the boat you need or want in what regards sailing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Last nights incident off Ca, (1 dead, 5 rescued after abandoning racing sailboat off Southern California - The Washington Post )made me take a closer look at this little rocket.The Columbia 32
> She does look fast and fragile.
> "Race with the big boys at a fraction of the price and steal their thunder."


The Columbia 32 is a very nice sailboat and it is just sad that our attention was brought to it by a fatal accident. That is much of a racer even if if it would not be difficult to make out of it a great performance cruising version. The boat has a huge stability with a big draft and a big B/D ratio and some interesting features as the possibility of having a lifting keel and a lifting propeller (never had saw one).

The fragility of those hugely deep rudders face to debris is a problem, even in what regards racing boats, as it is the case. The first version of the boat, this one(2005) had a different rudder and one that can easily be made to pivoting if hit by any obstacle:










The 2012 version has a different rudder and one that cannot be adapted to do that. A twin rudder system would probably have prevented this accident. We have seen several times Figaro II retiring from races with one rudder damaged by debris but I don't recall of any not being able to make it to port by its own means.

The designer of this boat is an experienced one even if not having designed many boats. Tim Kernan designed the Santa Cruz 37 and that is certainly a reference.

The boat looks very good, in its basic dimensions and in what regards design:

COLUMBIA 32 SPORT YACHT sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com




















































Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*TP 52 World Championship*

An the Swedish from Ran are the new champions, beating at home (Miami) the American team from Quantum. Great fight, great sailing


----------



## PCP

*Nice Desktop with Calendar*

The Magazine yacht.de has been offering some nice Desktops with calendars, is several sizes. You can download here:

März 2013*|*YACHT.DE

The one for this month is particularly nice. Have a look at that one, some other great ones and some good photos from their site:


----------



## PCP

*Traditional/Classic boats:*

British pilot cutter, Eagle 44, Spirit of tradition, Spirit Yachts, Tofinou, Safier, the Jolie Morgan : aren't they all beauties in their own right?


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe: next boat*

Now that the race is over started the discussion about the alteration of the boat for the next edition. Several possibilities:

1 -A 50 ft less expensive One class boat.

2 -A 60ft one class boat.

3 -Different boats with a rule but with box keels equal for all and consensual among designers.

4 - Different boats and keels, leaving to the Nas the resolution of the problem.

*"As the Vendée Globe comes to an end again for another four years the discussions are turning to what changes need to be made to the format for the next edition.

Top of the agenda is changes to the boats eligible to take part. After more keel failures in this race, almost everyone agrees that something should be done, and the race organisers of the Vendée Globe have been looking carefully at whether or not they ought to move to a one-design for 2016.
...
To help make up their mind independently of what the current crop of skippers think, the Vendée Race management company, SEM Vendée, commissioned a report by former race winner Alain Gautier. Gautier has submitted his findings and recommendations, and a decision about the boats will be made within weeks.

"I asked Alain to give me a report on the evolution process of the boats and I gave him three objectives to look at," Bruno Retailleau, president of the race, told me.

"One, the advantages and disadvantages of a one-design.

Two, is that in accordance with the spirit of the race?

And three, can the race be safer in one-design?"

It just so happens that Michel Desjoyeaux has a potentially suitable one-design up his sleeve in the form of the Oceans50, a modified version of the canting keel SolOceans 50 from 2008, built for a one-design race that never got off the ground. This has proved reliable, has the backing of the French Sailing Federation, and he argues it would be cheaper to build. A new build IMOCA 60 like the race-winning MACIF now runs to around €3.5 million.










This baby will cost 3 times less.

Desjoyeaux has put the idea forward. There are a number of skippers who prefer the concept of a one-design in principle (though not necessarily this one). They feel they have nothing to fear from such a radical change. I talked to Armel Le Cléac'h about it last year and he was vehemently a fan, telling me that sharing a stock of spares and logistics would only be an advantage.

Probably the majority of current skippers are opposed to so major a change, and even the Vendée management seem to be taking the view it could be a step too far for the race....

"As well as safety we wanted to look at accessibility, and how easy it is for the younger generation and medium-sized companies to be involved. That is imperative because of the rise of costs. So we will look at that and analyse all these things and take a lot of care before deciding in March," says Retailleau.

In saying so, though, he leaves me with the impression that a compromise is already the favoured option. "We mustn't cut out the technical development, because before the start people come to see the boats as well as the sailors and they know that behind it all is technology, a human sport but also a mechanical sport," he says.

"So it could be that we look at something between these two options of a one-design and [open rule]. Maybe we could have a form of one-design [elements] in the boats. We will try to find a middle ground."

The options for a one-design keel and maybe also a change to the mast rule is soon to be discussed by skippers and voted on at the class AGM. It's been mooted before, and defeated by only a handful of votes, but this year the pressure is really on to reach a consensus for more sweeping change.

As for Desjoyeaux's 50ft one-design class, he's trying to find a place for it, but the Vendée Globe management isn't likely to bite. "I don't think we can have a double class in the race," says Retailleau. "We had in the first edition, but the fleet was so spread it was a safety issue and it would make the race more confusing and harder to understand."*

http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/533732/vend-e-organisers-debate-solo-designs

I don't agree with Retailleau. We could well have something similar to what happens with the Mini transat: Open boats and production boats, meaning, Open 60, preferably with a box Keel to all, and a a smaller 50ft one design class. That of course if they can accept more inscriptions: 20 would be enough for the two classes. The huge difference in price between the 60 and 50ft boats would lead to the existence of many 50fts and a smaller number of really competitive Open 60's. This would make possible much more promising young talents without limiting design development, in what regards the top class.

I don't know what is going to be the option chosen but I don't believe that things will remain unchanged.

...


----------



## Daily Alice

*SpeedDream project*

An interesting boat, talk, project (also see Paulo's ("PCP") post #3145, last October) -- this video presentation and blog are new since then:

From Impossible Idea to Reality - the World's Fastest Sailboat: Vlad Murnikov




(TEDx Talk)

Brian Hancock "creative and media director" for the project has a blog and Welcome; comments on upcoming Volvo Ocean race classes: "Innovate, or die."

An 80% canting keel.


----------



## robelz

The VG will be much slower in 50ft one design boats and I'd like to see some more records in the coming issues. Will there be the possibility to circumnavigate unter 70 days?


----------



## robelz

Archambault A35: Ein Erfolgsgarant in Neuauflage - Yachten + Jollen | YACHT.DE

Archambault is building a new A35 (first 2 boats will be ready in late summer):

Better ballast to weight ratio (50 instead of 40%) at the same weight.
Same hull, but lighter deck and interieur with heavier keel.
Bigger sail area and longer mast.
Bowsprit as an Option.
Tiller or 2 wheels (instead of one wheel in the old A35).
2 versions: racing or cruising.
Price for the standard version is 148.000 including VAT...

Did you recognize that the NEO 400 has pivoting berths to balance heel in rough seas?


----------



## PCP

*Re: SpeedDream project*



Daily Alice said:


> An interesting boat, talk, project (also see Paulo's ("PCP") post #3145, last October) -- this video presentation and blog are new since then:
> 
> From Impossible Idea to Reality - the World's Fastest Sailboat: Vlad Murnikov
> From Impossible Idea to Reality - the World's Fastest Sailboat: Vlad Murnikov at TEDxBeaconStreet - YouTube
> (TEDx Talk)
> 
> Brian Hancock "creative and media director" for the project has a blog and Welcome; comments on upcoming Volvo Ocean race classes: "Innovate, or die."
> 
> An 80% canting keel.


Thanks for posting. This is indeed an interesting idea but it seems that it is not working out at least on the first boat. They don't seem to have enough RM. The conditions seem pretty soft, with not too much wind and they have to balance the boat with the weight of the body. Contrary to what I think Murnikov expected, when the keels comes out of water the boat seems to lose quickly stability.






I guess that it is because the keel work as a foil and creates stability even if it was not maximized for that, like on this project (DSS):






INFINITI YACHTS from Q&K on Vimeo.






Infiniti 36 GT Sea Trials from Q&K on Vimeo.

Maybe we can combine both projects: Maximizing ballast effect maintaining it at the better angle to provide Max RM while profiling that keel to aerodynamically make a downward force. Maybe it is not much difficult to make a variable profile with small servo electric engines (like on an airplane).

That way it could be possible to maintain the keel always in the better position (slightly inside the water) adjusting the profile to give more or less downwind force according with wind intensity.

For working that way that bulb has to be modified, giving it a much more elongated form, diminishing drag. Like it is, it was made to be out of the water and now it would be inside the water all times.

It seems that they don't go that way and I don't like the way they are going. It seems to me that those wings on the new modified boat will be just to provide more RM trough the displacement of the weight of the crew. That would not work out on a bigger model. In fact if they want to test for a bigger model the way they are doing it makes no sense. The RM provided by the weight of the crew will have in the smaller model a completely disproportionated effect providing much more RM than it would be possible on the bigger boat where the crew will weight proportionally a lot less regarding the total weight of the boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> The VG will be much slower in 50ft one design boats and I'd like to see some more records in the coming issues. Will there be the possibility to circumnavigate unter 70 days?


Sure....with a multihull. The actual record is 45 days and 13 hours and 42 minutes. Even on a VOR 70 non stop with a crew I guess that they can easily take some days from those 70. It is very different to do it Solo or in a full crewed boat. The boat can also be less forgiving and more faster than an Open 60.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

robelz said:


> Archambault A35: Ein Erfolgsgarant in Neuauflage - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
> 
> Archambault is building a new A35 (first 2 boats will be ready in late summer):
> 
> Better ballast to weight ratio (50 instead of 40%) at the same weight.
> Same hull, but lighter deck and interieur with heavier keel.
> Bigger sail area and longer mast.
> Bowsprit as an Option.
> Tiller or 2 wheels (instead of one wheel in the old A35).
> 2 versions: racing or cruising.
> Price for the standard version is 148.000 including VAT...
> 
> Did you recognize that the NEO 400 has pivoting berths to balance heel in rough seas?


Having sailed Grand Surprise and 35, those are great sailing boats! Fast, great feel, near perfect amateur crew racing deck layout, and well built. Not an extended cruiser and not ideal undersides in terms of space and ergonomics but a great sailing machine.


----------



## PCP

*New A35*



robelz said:


> Archambault A35: Ein Erfolgsgarant in Neuauflage - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
> 
> Archambault is building a new A35 (first 2 boats will be ready in late summer):
> 
> Better ballast to weight ratio (50 instead of 40%) at the same weight.
> Same hull, but lighter deck and interieur with heavier keel.
> Bigger sail area and longer mast.
> Bowsprit as an Option.
> Tiller or 2 wheels (instead of one wheel in the old A35).
> 2 versions: racing or cruising.
> Price for the standard version is 148.000 including VAT...
> ..


I was a bit surprised with that. The boat is a winner, I mean it is still winning everywhere (solo, duo, full crew) and I was thinking how it would be possible to make a better boat.....well it turns out that it is nor really a new boat but an upgrade of the previous one and not only a cosmetic one : They managed to save 150kg making the cabin and deck also using vacuum infusion the technique they used already on the hull.

Talking about the hull, it is the same but curiously they have increased the ballast in 210kg and give it more 10cms of draft. So, diminished weight, more ballast and more draft that means *MORE POWER* as if the A35 has not already plenty.

Regarding the cosmetic part I am no sure I like more the lines of this one. Maybe the boat looks better than the designs and maybe the better alteration is on the interior, that was already a nice one for a high performance cruiser.

In fact they announce a cruiser and a racer. Maybe the cruiser has a better cruising interior and that would be great because the A35 has already a good cruising interior, in a spartan kind of way.

The new model (drawings) and the older one (photos):
































































This is going to be a great occasion to buy one of these babies almost new at a discount price. The guys that race this boat seriously on the first league will want the new faster one and the price of the "old" one on the used market is going to come down.

And I saved the best for the end: Archambault was living hard days and it would bankrupt if it was not saved in extremis by a new investor. It seems that things are going well and I am sure this upgrade will be a success making even better a great boat.

Boats keep winning and the A31, a boat that has already some years was elected 2012 IRC boat of the year. I love that boat. If I sailed solo it would be probably the boat that I would chose. Of course with my wife that is a no no

The a 31:




















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Archambault Grand Surprise*



bb74 said:


> Having sailed Grand Surprise and 35, those are great sailing boats! Fast, great feel, near perfect amateur crew racing deck layout, and well built. Not an extended cruiser and not ideal undersides in terms of space and ergonomics but a great sailing machine.


Never talked here about the Grand Surprise I guess because the model is older than this thread but it is certainly a great boat an hugely popular in France. A regatta boat, a day sailer or weekend cruiser. The boat has about the same size of the A31 but it is an absolutely different boat, narrower, lighter and pointed clearly for crewed racing while the A31 can do that but also be an offshore solo racer with a much better cruising interior, for a much higher price.

Few boats can offer the same performance and fun by the same price. That's why the Grand surprise is so popular among the ones that like sailing fast.

Compare the A31 with the Grand Surprise and you will see that the only thing they have in common is its length:




























http://www.archambault-boats.eu/images/stories/telechargement/GRANDSURPRISEBROCHURE1.jpg

http://www.archambault-boats.eu/images/stories/telechargement/A31-BROCHURE.pdf

Two great boats. Look at the Grand Surprise Speed:





















Regards

Paulo


----------



## bb74

Thanks PCP. For those that don't know the Grand Surprise, well worth the look as it's a great weekend / race boat.

1 did 2 Bol d'Or on the GS and some daysailing and I have to say it was the first time I've been on a 30 footer and the helm feel felt like my Open 5.00. Reactive like a race car and single finger handling on the tiller. Absolutely great feel and control.

Very good upwind, crosswind and downwind performance - we had a Spi on a pole so had about 32° to 170° performance angles with good speed. Light boat so with a crew you need to anticipate both direction changes as well as crew weight / placement on tacks but that's for racing.

Solid build, good access to foredeck and very predictable behaviour. The cockpit layout is the best I've seen for 4 crew racing. Tiller way back with mainsail trim. Foresal on outbound winches. Pit / Nav, and spi at mast. Lots of space, great ergos, decent protection on a heel.

Only downside is it a light, race first boat so undersides lack stowage and headroom. Think of it as a man's crash pad as opposed to a flat you'd share with a future second half. The one I sailed had a single gas burner, no fridge, and no hot water. Not a big issue on the Leman as most ports have great waterfront restaurants so it's more a crash pad for sleep and then off to the next destination. Camping more than B&B.

If you can sail it one day, I guarantee a *** eatin' grin after 30 seconds with the tiller in hand.


----------



## Faster

*Re: Archambault Grand Surprise*



PCP said:


>


Ha!  at first glance this picture looked like something another recent poster was asking for.. a modern hull with a full keel (though this appeared to have a high tech forward rudder   :laugher)


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## PCP

*Open 5.00*



bb74 said:


> 1 did 2 Bol d'Or on the GS and some daysailing and I have to say it was the first time I've been on a 30 footer and the helm feel felt like my Open 5.00. Reactive like a race car and single finger handling on the tiller. Absolutely great feel and control.
> ...


You can do better as a contributor to this thread. You have an Open 5.00 and didn't post about it on this thread?

Why not? That is a great boat that would interest many and besides it is available in the US also. I have posted about the Open 5.7 the more expensive hard core racing version but not about the 5.0.

The Open 5.00 or Open 500, as it is also known, is on of the last legacies of the great master, Jean Marie Finot, that in the end of his career started to design boats that he thought would be affordable and would give a lot of sailing pleasure. Among them the Pogo 10.50 and the Open 5.00:

Finot says about the boat:

*Light, Fast, stable, unsinkable, easy to sail, a boat that allows to go fast with the sensations of a racing dinghy without a capsizing risk.*

The boats are made under licence in the US by the same guys that make the mini Pogo racer. They say about the boat:

*Whether it's a relaxing day sail with family or a challenging single-handed speed run, the Open 5.00 is an amazing compact sportboat. Like her big brother, the Open 5.70, the 5.00 is fast and agile, but easier to sail and handle - an ideal boat for young or old, beginner or expert.

The Open 5.00 provides the perfect balance between dinghy and keelboat - sailing fast with dinghy-like excitement, without the risk of capsizing. The unique swing keel makes launching the boat a breeze and allows access to places other keel boats cannot venture.

It is a perfect blend all wrapped up in a small manageable package.

As for racing, the new series 5.00 benefits from the active and dynamic Class Association. The class' objective is to bring together those who are passionate about racing, but tired of complications regarding budget, large crews, water depth or expensive storage.*

Open 5.00















































So, give us your impressions about your boat and the fun to sail it

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Red Bull Youth America's Cup 2013*











A nice idea:

*"For the first time in the history of the America's Cup, young, talented sailors have a clear pathway towards competing for one of the most prestigious trophies in sport. The Red Bull Youth America's Cup opens the door for young sailors to gain the experience they need to contribute to a Cup team.

Racing will take place in the same high performance, wing-sailed AC45 catamarans that are used in the America's Cup World Series. The Red Bull Youth America's Cup is scheduled for August/September 2013, in San Francisco, during the heart of the 34th America's Cup racing season.

The Red Bull Youth America's Cup is open to national teams of six sailors, aged 19 to 24 in 2013. Each crew must hold a valid passport of the country their team represents. Equipment, including the AC45 platform and wing, will be supplied to teams who have their entry accepted."*

Red Bull Youth America's Cup / America's Cup

The selection series were won by the Swiss team by only 1 point over the Portuguese team. Hot

The other selections that will be at the series will be the selected on these series:

Australia - Objective Australia
Germany - STG/NRV Youth Team
New Zealand - Full Metal Jacket Racing
Portugal - ROFF/Cascais Sailing Team
Switzerland - Team TILT

more the ones that would have a direct sponsorship by main teams:

Youth crews supported by America's Cup World Series Teams
France - Energy Team/Name TBC

New Zealand - Emirates Team New Zealand/Name TBC
Sweden - Artemis Racing/Swedish Youth Challenge
USA - ORACLE TEAM USA/American Youth Sailing Force (SFO)
USA - ORACLE TEAM USA/USA45 Racing (USA)


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## PCP

*Open 5.70, Open 6.50, Open 7.50*

After talking about the smaller boat it makes sense to talk about all the line of small Open boats by Finot. Why Open? Because the use the same principles that are used on Open60 boats, a type of boat that owns much to Finot creativity.

The boats are beamy, with a huge hull stability and have a very low CG, due to big draft and ballast on a bulb. The advantage over other dinghy classes is the easiness to sail, superior stability and the need of a smaller crew. They can even be sailed solo. The boats are so easy to sail that sailed conservatively can be used as daysailors and take "passengers" and the family.

*Finot says regarding the 5.70:*

*The Open 5,70 is designed for sailing schools, renting, clubs and to be used by young people with a reduced surveillance and, in regatta, by anybody who have passed the age for dinghy acrobatics.*

Open 5.70

*regarding the 6.50:*

*Our goal with the Open 6,50 has been to build stronger and lighter composite structures in order to obtain performances never achieved on sailboats.
Some of these concepts have been tested on our open 50 and 60's..But they usually come at a rather high cost...

With a group of partners from the surroundings of Toulouse, we have developed a new technology to produce a radically lighter boat. A lot of the development and the construction methodology are derived from the Aircraft industry using carbon fiber cured in autoclave.
..
The hull is built with a process called "Autostruct" which allows the construction of the shell, stringers and reinforcement all in one piece. The effort is concentrated on a flawless construction that can be translated into production. 
A boat of that dimension half way between a dingy and a cruising sailboat seemed to us the right size to validate this concept.*

Open 650

*and about the 7.50:*

*An Open 60' design for a smaller budget! If you want to be first on the finish line, you'd better be on a groupe Finot design.

The materials, the construction methods for top boat design have greatly improved in the past couple of years. The use of Carbon composites in the hull, the queel wing results in an evolution of the shape of the hulls, the keels and rudders.

The 7.50 Open is a high performance one-design boat. It is currently the faster monohull for its size. The Groupe Finot applied all its experience from the very successfull Open 50' and 60' to develop this great raceboat.

The boat is wide to optimizes the use of the crew weight. The water line is relatively narrow. The good stability of the boat allows the use of large sail area whatever wind conditions. There is a small cabin on the front for the equipment and for protection in the harbor.

The tranportation can be done using a regular road carrier by tilting the boat and retracting the keel.
*
750' Open Anglais

In few years the boats experienced a big success and they are a one design class in many countries around the world including US:

http://www.open570usa.com/

Here you have one in Hawaii. They don't know the boat and look how they manage to go fast at the first try:






Here a 6.50, another American one:






And the 7.50:






Here you can see them, among other boats, in one of the French classic regattas. You can see also Grand Surprise, M34 and J111.


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## PCP

*Saare 41AC*

The Magazine "yacht" tested the new Saare 41 AC and I guess that it would be difficult to said better about the boat:

*"Excellent sailing characteristics and high quality development - the twelve-meter yacht from Estonia is a true alternative to the established, traditional Scandinavian brands."*

They forget to say that the boat costs less than the other Scandinavian boats and that would be important for some. certainly a boat to look at if the ideal boat is a Halberg-Rassy. They also have a CC version.











The interior:

SaareYachts.com - Saare 41ac - 360

SaareYachts.com - Saare 41ac - 360

I never sailed the boat but I like very much the design parameters:

The boat has a moderated beam (3.92m) a moderated draft (2.00m) a modern bulbed keel with a high B/D ratio (40%) and a considerable rocker (not a flat hull). That high B/D ratio permits it to compensate the bigger hull form stability of a HR 412 (beam 4.15m, B/D ratio 36%) but gives it a better reserve stability.

It has a very good stability curve. This one is from the 41cc, the one from the 41ac would be better since the boat has the same ballast but weights less 700kg. It will have an even higher AVS and a smaller inverted stability and this curve has already a big AVS and a very small inverted stability area. The proportion between the positive area and the negative are is also excellent. Only the max GZ reflects that more moderated beam. The GZ at 30º is almost the same:










The boat is considerably lighter than a HR (9800kg to 11000kg). This does not make the Saare specially light for a 41 ft. A performance 41ft will weight about 2000kg less.

Being lighter and with less beam the Saare 41 needs less sail area than the HR: It carries upwind 86m2 and the HR 90m2, both boats with jib. With less 4m2 of sail but also with less 1200kg and less beam, the Saare will be faster in most conditions. Better and more comfortable upwind and will have also a better reserve stability. The HR will sail with a bit less heel and will be just a bit more steady downwind.

I find the Saare more elegant, in fact, very elegant in a classic sort of way. In fact I like a lot this boat.

Have a look at the HR and its stability curve, also a good one.


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## PCP

*Sailing news:*


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## robelz

Hey Paulo, can you tell me why the Salona 33 is heavier than the 35?


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## PCP

robelz said:


> Hey Paulo, can you tell me why the Salona 33 is heavier than the 35?


The weight is not very different because the 33 hull is the one from the 35 shortened but they give 4.950 kg for the 33 and 5300 kg for the 35. What do you mean?

Technical data - Salona Yachts

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Malo 37*

The boat has some years but it is a new test sail from YachtingMonthly






Sure, everything is perfect, the interior is great...but the boat is slow and a bit fat, I mean regarding the freeboard and the global look. i am sure the classic version will look a lot better even if it is a pain to get aboard from the water.

I guess that the HR 372 is just a better boat: Lighter, stiffer, carrying more sail, faster and for what they say regarding pointing, also better upwind.






other interesting options, a bit more sportive but all with great quality cruising interiors would be the Arcona 370 the Finngulf 37 the Swedstar 37, the Finnflyer 36 the Salona 38 and some more:


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## PCP

*Collection: Knock downs*


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## PCP

*New Alubat Cigale 18*

After the Cigale 16:






Alubat is presenting the new Cigale 18. An even more beautiful boat and a boat that can be sailed with a short crew or even solo. This is a boat that have received all the knowledge from the solo Open60 in what regards easy of use and solo sailing, a very fast boat for a cruising one, made of aluminium and pointed clearly (as the Cigale 16) to long range voyaging. It has a huge garage for a dinghy




























I guess that for this boat (and the Cigale 16) to be perfect it would only need a version with a swing keel, the same type used on the POGO. Than we would have a boat with all the RM and added stiffness provided by a very low CG (as it is already now) provided by a deep ballasted keel but with the possibility of taking shelter anywhere and entering all those little traditional old ports that many times have only 1.5/1.8 m of water.

I guess that they will develop one version like that. They announced a draft of 2.85m and that limits a lot the boat in what regards draft. The designer, Marc Lombard, has developed a swing keel system (similar to the one developed initially by Finot) a system that is already used on some of his designs, like for instance the Wauquiez Opium 39. It seems to me that it would make all sense to have it on this boat.

And as it seems that type of bulbed ballasted swing keel can be applied to big yachts. Here a beautiful Lombard design for a 105fter that uses the system:


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## opc11

Paulo,

I haven't been checking in lately and just read you and your son were in the hospital. I wish you both a speedy recovery and better health.

Regards,
paul


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## robelz

PCP said:


> The weight is not very different because the 33 hull is the one from the 35 shortened but they give 4.950 kg for the 33 and 5300 kg for the 35. What do you mean?
> 
> Technical data - Salona Yachts
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I have been to the german distributor's page and they say 4900 for the 35 and 4950 for the 33, but they are supposed to be wrong...

Salona 33 - Salona Yachts - Texhnixhe Daten
Technische Daten Salona 35


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## bjung

*Re: Malo 37*

The revamped Malo 37 appears "cheapened", compared to the older model. Not a lot of changes, just ways to make the bottomline better for Malo. No more traveller, cabin portlights are no longer openable and accordingly ventilation will suffer immensely, especially in the aft cabin with only one opening porthole to the cockpit. These are not improvements on the boat, only improvements on the bottomline, which I must say is sad. Whatever happened to all the work Nigel Calder did with Malo on electric propulsion and hybrid systems? I have always liked Malo Yachts for their outstanding build quality and seakindly designs, but I guess the pressure is on to build a cheaper boat and improve the bottomline.


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## bjung

*Futuna Explorer 54*

Bob Perry reviewed this yacht in Sailing Magazine/ April 2013. Another option for those who are looking for a purpose built offshore aluminium cruiser with retractable centreboard. With an SA/D of 20.54 and a D/L of 173 this yacht should be moving along quite well.
Aluminum sailboat for expedition and round the world sailing voyage


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## PCP

opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I haven't been checking in lately and just read you and your son were in the hospital. I wish you both a speedy recovery and better health.
> 
> Regards,
> paul


Thanks Paul

Almost fully recovered now. Tomorrow I will take out the last stitches

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

robelz said:


> I have been to the german distributor's page and they say 4900 for the 35 and 4950 for the 33, but they are supposed to be wrong...
> 
> Salona 33 - Salona Yachts - Texhnixhe Daten
> Technische Daten Salona 35


Probably or they gave asked for their basic models (33 and 35) to have different basic specifications. As you know Salona can customize the boats and offer them in different versions: Hull more light (epoxy), more ballast or lighter interior (Basalt for bulkheads and lighter furniture).

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Re: Malo 37*



bjung said:


> The revamped Malo 37 appears "cheapened", compared to the older model. Not a lot of changes, just ways to make the bottomline better for Malo. No more traveller, cabin portlights are no longer openable and accordingly ventilation will suffer immensely, especially in the aft cabin with only one opening porthole to the cockpit. These are not improvements on the boat, only improvements on the bottomline, which I must say is sad. Whatever happened to all the work Nigel Calder did with Malo on electric propulsion and hybrid systems? I have always liked Malo Yachts for their outstanding build quality and seakindly designs, but I guess the pressure is on to build a cheaper boat and improve the bottomline.


It has to do with price but not only. The traveler on that position is difficult to use and I bet most Malo owners or the ones that have similar travelers, that are anyway very small, don't use them so the next steep is a fixed one. As a tendency you are having decent big travelers near the wheel (for more fast cruisers) and no travelers or very small travelers over the cabin or in an arch.

Regarding openings that is also a tendency. You cannot have a interior with more light and a good outside view with the traditional opening small portlights. They have tried (not Malo but several brands) huge opening port-lights but leaking problems have increased dramatically. So they choose what public wants: more light at a cost of some ventilation loss and if they can cut on the price, even better.

I am no saying that I do not agree with you just trying to view it on their perspective. In fact I prefer a big traveler near the wheel but the ones that want that would not buy this boat but (with identical quality interiors) a Finngulf 37 or a Arcona 370 and those have all the items that makes a sailor that likes sailing as much as cruising happy.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Futuna Explorer 54*



bjung said:


> Bob Perry reviewed this yacht in Sailing Magazine/ April 2013. Another option for those who are looking for a purpose built offshore aluminium cruiser with retractable centreboard. With an SA/D of 20.54 and a D/L of 173 this yacht should be moving along quite well.
> Aluminum sailboat for expedition and round the world sailing voyage


We had already talked about the Futuna yachts on this thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats-149.html

Futuna are designed by Marc Lombard and the Fotuna Explorer 54 does not look like a Marc Lombard design


















































































Sure, the boat looks nice and adapted to its use but hardly innovative. it seems that I had already saw that design somewhere . The only innovative thing the boat has I don't like it, I mean a forward movable canard. It just don't makes sense on this kind of boat:










The ballast seems also a bit on the short side. They don't show the stability curve and I would like to see it. I don't think the AVS is much bigger than 110º. I don't like also the dingy on Davits.

This is more the type of hull Marc Lombard would design (in fact it is a M. Lombard design):



















The shape of the hull seems not very dissimilar in what regards seeing it from above but look at the shape of the transom. On these boats where hull stability is a fundamental part in what regards stability for sailing it makes all the sense this type of transom that not only increase stability as also limits sailing angles. The hull of the Explorer is round and allows for much more heel angle:










But for what? this boat does not have a deep draft with the ballast down where heeling increases a lot RM. This kind of transom on this boat will only make it less stable, not more.

Well the explanation is simple after all: This is not a Marc Lombard design but a Bernard Nivelt one.










Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

*Re: Malo 37*



PCP said:


> Regarding openings that is also a tendency. You cannot have a interior with more light and a good outside view with the traditional opening small portlights. They have tried (not Malo but several brands) huge opening port-lights but leaking problems have increased dramatically. So they choose what public wants: more light at a cost of some ventilation loss and if they can cut on the price, even better.


Sorry, but I cannot agree that more light has to impede ventilation. HR and X Yachts have no problem building boats with larger portholes than the Malo 37 and they are openable. Even Hanse and Bavaria think it is important to have good ventilation, and continue to have openable portlights.
If Malo really wants to bring down its price point, how about a teak free deck. It would not only save about $15k, or more, but also make resale easier, and keep the deck, the bottom of your feet, and the interior cooler.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Malo 37*



bjung said:


> Sorry, but I cannot agree that more light has to impede ventilation. HR and X Yachts have no problem building boats with larger portholes than the Malo 37 and they are openable. Even Hanse and Bavaria think it is important to have good ventilation, and continue to have openable portlights.
> If Malo really wants to bring down its price point, how about a teak free deck. It would not only save about $15k, or more, but also make resale easier, and keep the deck, the bottom of your feet, and the interior cooler.


I don't think it has to do with bringing the prices down, at least in boats as expensive as Malo. It has to do with bringing more light to the interior and to the inefficacy of big opening lateral portholes in what regards being water tight.

Malo have tried them with not great results:










Halberg Rassy has tried, the results are not very good, particularly after some years of use and they are still using them:










Bavaria has tried them with bad results:










And went again on the less expensive cruising line for more efficient smaller opening portholes:










But one the more expensive vision and on the top of the cruising range, on the new 56 they went for the solution that seems to mark the contemporary tendency: Lots of illumination and views and the lateral ventilation assured by some opening portholes (specially the one over the galley and the opposed one) that are only a small area of all openings, :




























I bet Bavaria will use this concept on all future boats from the cruising range.

The same happens for instance with Solaris or the Xp series:



























I think that those big opening portholes are a bad solution since they will have always problems in what regards being watertight, if not when the boat is new, quite rapidly. You can have boats with traditional smaller portholes or boats with lots of light and outside views... but not both.

You have an intermediate solution, one that possibilities the views and the lateral ventilation one that provides lateral opening portholes but only on a small area of all the area that provides views and illumination.

I had boats with the two solutions and I prefer the last one. A boat needs on the saloon lateral ventilation, specially over the galley but most ventilation comes from the big deck hatches.

Regards

Paulo


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## wopalx

Our old X37 had inward opening portholes and never leaked. Also having them open inwards meant you were not impeded moving around on deck when they were open.

Our XP38 has outward opening portholes. Have had a few leaks but the dealer indicated the seals need regular cleaning, we will see. I just think as they are made 100% in plastic they cannot dog down as tight as the older style. Worst thing is they do impede walking around on the deck as they make very good "shin skin" removal devices if your not careful.

Overall though I would prefer to have them opening than not, especially in warmer climates such as Australia.


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## PCP

*Transat Bretagne-Martinique 2013*

I have been busy and had not time to post about this one.

The ones that like solo racing in small ocean going boats (FigaroII) will love this Transat since 15 very good solo racers are in a big fight for the leadership with many close to it. There are two main strategic options and two groups following them:

Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

Site Officiel de la Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

they had already got heavy winds over the Biscay Golf (over 30K) and more heavy winds are on the way and that makes those different options specially important.





Clip de lancement de la Transat Bretagne... _por transatbretagnemartinique_





Un prologue AG2R LA MONDIALE musclé !!! _por transatbretagnemartinique_





Le départ de la Transat Bretagne Martinique _por transatbretagnemartinique_


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## PCP

wopalx said:


> Our old X37 had inward opening portholes and never leaked. Also having them open inwards meant you were not impeded moving around on deck when they were open.
> 
> Our XP38 has outward opening portholes. Have had a few leaks but the dealer indicated the seals need regular cleaning, we will see. I just think as they are made 100% in plastic they cannot dog down as tight as the older style. Worst thing is they do impede walking around on the deck as they make very good "shin skin" removal devices if your not careful.
> 
> Overall though I would prefer to have them opening than not, especially in warmer climates such as Australia.


Thanks for the input. In fact in the Xp 38 not all portholes open but the ones that open are quite big. I guess that will not solve any problem regarding being watertight.










Regarding opening to the outside besides the disadvantage that you have refereed they seem to have two advantages: More solid in case of extreme force and will get some protection against rain not only preventing it to enter but not allowing the water to drip along them to the inside if the boat.

The disadvantage you refer would not be a disadvantage for me. I only open them on the marina or at anchor. If I open them while sailing, sooner or later water will come in because I will forget to close them when the wind picks up.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Transat Bretagne-Martinique*

Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

In 12 hours, along the night, most of those solo sailors will be sailing their small 35ft light sailboats close upwind in a bad sea with winds over 30K. What a night Wish them all luck.

What a race

*Yann Eliès (Groupe Quéguiner - Leucémie Espoir): "I'm a little tense. It will be pretty tough, that's for sure. It is important to immediately get into the race and not delay. You need to get into a good rhythm because as soon as you go out through the bottleneck at the mouth to Brest harbour, you'll be into a large sea. There won't be any time to get our sea legs. The problem is that there is a fairly complex weather system. It will be quite stormy and we must be dynamic and opportunistic from the outset, consider this early part of the race like a leg of the Solitaire du Figaro Eric Bompard cashmere."

Fred Duthil (Sepalumic): "It will be necessary to push hard from the outset especially as there is a choice between heading west or going south to bypass the anticyclone and that is not so simple today. We'll have to make a decision quickly thought, as soon as tonight maybe. I think we'll be heading out into 35 knot gusts, so we will be directly into it and it will be time to find out if you can face it for the next ten days or not. The route is less complicated further on as we head down the eastern side of the high, not far from the Canary Islands."*

and a girl, on his first Transat, a Norwegian:

*Kristin Songe-Moller (Sponsor Me): "Going into my first transatlantic race, the weather is complicated and hard and is not easy to understand. This week, it felt like I was running around in all directions, unable to do whatever I wanted to finish. I am preparing myself for a hard few days and I'm feeling a lot of stress because my goal is to really get to the finish. My boat is not as well prepared as the favourites and my sails are already worn, so I have to protect them for as long as possible. It would be catastrophic for me not to make it to Fort-de-France. I have put all my savings into taking part in this race. I cannot imagine giving up."*

Figaro Transat Bretagne-Martinique 2013 start | The Daily Sail


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## PCP

*Elan 400*

The boat looked good and it seems Rob Humphreys got it right. The boat was tested in very demanding conditions by Yacht magazine and they say:

.. "The test shows that in strong winds the average-equipped boat with two rudders has a considerable performance potential and a very balanced sailing performance."

very German, but also very concise.

I have already posted about the boat and said that the interior looked better than on the first photos. The only thing I don't like is a smaller galley than average and specially the fact that on the 2 cabin version they didn't took the possibility to increase it. A pity on a boat that is a very interesting one and could be a better cruising boat if that was taken into account.


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## PCP

*America's Cup*

Great images of Oracle flying low, foiling at 40K:






Beautiful but that landing from 40K is quite violent and the boat almost dig a floater on the water. I wonder what would happen if that landing was on a wave? It would be a lot more violent for sure and that floater would be able to bring the boat up or the speed would push it down?. These are boats to sail out of protected waters and the rules (of I am not mistaken) talk about 30k as acceptable boundaries to sail. They seem pretty fragile to me and I never saw them sailing out of flat waters. Very curious about all this


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## crassius

*Allures 39.9 Hull No. 1*

I am not allowed to post linline pictures yet, so hopefully a couple attached will display.

This is Allures 39.9 Hull Number One in the water for the first time.

Its at the top of my list for next boat as I need the shallow draft (3.48 feet), for Chesapeake and Bahamas sailing and I must have aluminum hull this time around.


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## PCP

*Re: Allures 39.9 Hull No. 1*



crassius said:


> I am not allowed to post linline pictures yet, so hopefully a couple attached will display.
> 
> This is Allures 39.9 Hull Number One in the water for the first time.
> 
> And,
> 
> Some design sketches....
> 
> Its at the top of my list for next boat as I need the shallow draft (3.48 feet), for Chesapeake and Bahamas sailing and I must have aluminum hull this time around.


Welcome to sailnet and particularly to this thread. Yes the Allures 39.9 will be a great boat to sail the Bahamas. The 40 was already great and this one is just a bit better and if the quality of the interior I saw on the 45 is maintained on this boat, it would not have only a better sailing performance but it would be also a great value for the money. I was really impressed with the quality and price of the 45 I saw in Dusseldorf.



















As you probably know I have already posted about the Allures 39:



PCP said:


> and continuing talking about voyage boats, Allures announced in the Paris boat show the Allures 39.9 that is going to replace the 40 that was a very successful boat and I bet this one is even more. The design is a knock out
> 
> Absolutely beautiful, considering that is much more difficult to design a good looking 40ft boat than a 45, this boat is even more beautiful than the 45.
> 
> This is a Berret/Racopeau design and it is not only the boat that looks gorgeous the hull design seems great too as well as the interior. It seems that I am too enthusiastic about this boat, but what can I say, I love the design
> 
> The dimensions seem also correct to me. This is a beamy boat to take advantage of hull stability (4.15m) it will go probably well upwind with a centerboard with a draft of 2.75m. That's huge for a 40ft. The boat will have also a good AVS and a good overall stability, since they made the deck in composite to put the weight down and have a good B/D ratio (39%).
> 
> The boat is a bit on the heavy side (10 900kg) but on small centerboarders with all the ballast inside a very light boat don't seem a good idea to me so even the weight seems right to me. Even so the boat weights less than the also new Halberg Rassy 412.
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> ...


Regards

Paulo


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## Sapwraia

*Re: Allures 39.9*

Hi - we're thinking the 39.9 might be the long term boat for us too; ticks so many important boxes and very competitive pricing (ready to sail but minus some desirable options is half the price of what HR are quoting for their "fully loaded plus" demo 412  Not sure about the way they like to use plastic teak decking though. Looking forward to a sail on their demo boat this summer.

Just looking back at the discussion on Malo - the surprise for me is that they're still screwing & plugging the teak decks. That's crazy - if you need a teak veneer deck why drill 1,000+ holes in a brand new waterproof hull - other premium manufacturers are gluing with good results these days.

cheers


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## crassius

*Re: Allures 39.9*



Sapwraia said:


> Hi - we're thinking the 39.9 might be the long term boat for us too; ticks so many important boxes and very competitive pricing (ready to sail but minus some desirable options is half the price of what HR are quoting for their "fully loaded plus" demo 412


I was pleasently surprised by the quote I was given as well, when I had in my mind Garcia, French Labor costs etc.

At twice the price, I would custom build and get exactly what I want for that much...



Sapwraia said:


> Not sure about the way they like to use plastic teak decking though. Looking forward to a sail on their demo boat this summer.


I will have to see this plastic stuff in person to make a sound judgment... and talk to Owners with experience of the stuff. Sounds terrible on its surface, but maybe it has redeeming qualities.


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## hannah2

Crassius and sapwraia,

Do you know how long the waiting list is for the Allures until building would begin if you ordered one? I had a 6 month wait on our Boreal until building began then another 18 months before completion.

You are right about the price when you look at what you get. I do not know why anyone would pay the price for the HR when there are better built boats for almost half the cost. HR's are good boats but way over rated to many. 

Cheers


----------



## PCP

*Re: Allures 39.9*



Sapwraia said:


> Hi - we're thinking the 39.9 might be the long term boat for us too; ticks so many important boxes and very competitive pricing (ready to sail but minus some desirable options is half the price of what HR are quoting for their "fully loaded plus" demo 412  Not sure about the way they like to use plastic teak decking though. Looking forward to a sail on their demo boat this summer.
> ...
> cheers


Please give us a feedback on that test sail

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Allures 39.9*



crassius said:


> ..
> 
> I will have to see this plastic stuff in person to make a sound judgment... and talk to Owners with experience of the stuff. Sounds terrible on its surface, but maybe it has redeeming qualities.


You can trust me: It looks good. Now in what regards UV and duration I don't know. The product is this one:

Wilks Dek-King

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Bretagne-Martinique*

I had said that they would have a rough night, specially the ones more to the North. well... This was sent by Erwan Tabarly (Armor Lux - Comptoir de la Mer) at 10. 53 last night with the weather worsening:

*"We make way, painfully, but we are sailing. This is almost a storm! There are plenty of sea, wind, 35 knots average, strong gusts, I expect to have more in the coming hours, the boat moves violently, it is very humid outside, it is difficult to steer. From time to time waves cross the cockpit and it can be dangerous. I am inside until it passes. I was very very conservative yesterday, I anticipated and reefed early to have the time to have the right amount of sail. I expect some more hours with stronger winds. I think it's not bad right now. With 5-6 knots more, I do not know what it will happen, we'll see."*

The weather report gives gusting to 50/55K and the winds have been consistently stronger than what was forecast.

Two of the favorites have retired with the sails seriously damaged and another one is coming to Portugal (Porto) to get a new sail. but besides that the little boats keep sailing without any serious problem. The organization says on the news:

"Only some more hours for the 13 sailors to escape nasty weather. For 24 hours they took refuge in their cabins to be protected from the seas and winds."

Yoann Richomme (DLBC - Module Création) says:

*"the cockpit is swept away by the waves constantly there should be 4-5 m swell, it blows 42 knots, it is almost the strongest since we got into the gale . I'm starting to get into the heart of the matter. tonight I had between 30 and 35 knots, then it does not fall below 35, it will rise to 45 knots soon.

...I got good naps, I have eaten. Anyway, within a Figaro Beneteau it does not take hours to visit, so it is time for it to end! "*

Site Officiel de la Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

Chapeau to these guys and most of all chapeau to this little boat:

Figaro BENETEAU II / One-design / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU

a 10m boat very light boat (3000kg) a boat that it is not only fast but also very seaworthy:






Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013


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## Sapwraia

hannah2 said:


> Crassius and sapwraia,
> 
> Do you know how long the waiting list is for the Allures until building would begin if you ordered one? I had a 6 month wait on our Boreal until building began then another 18 months before completion.
> 
> Cheers


I haven't checked in the last couple of months but was told that no more build slots for 2013, so guess it's delivery for summer 2015 - which probably suits our timetable anyway.

cheers


----------



## bjung

*Re: Allures 39.9*



Sapwraia said:


> Hi - we're thinking the 39.9 might be the long term boat for us too; ticks so many important boxes and very competitive pricing (ready to sail but minus some desirable options is half the price of what HR are quoting for their "fully loaded plus" demo 412  Not sure about the way they like to use plastic teak decking though. Looking forward to a sail on their demo boat this summer.


I'll have to agree, there's a lot to like about the 39.9. Amazing to me, a couple of months ago, they announced on their site, that 10 hulls were already sold. That is with only artists renderings and no finished model to look at or even having splashed?!? I inquired twice about pricing, but have only been put on their newsletter list. Do they even have a definite price yet, considering hull #1 has yet to be finished?
One complaint: The powerboat style portlights in the hull are huge and fairly low to the WL, and in my opinion out of place for a dedicated blue water cruiser. I know, more light down below, but the possibility of their failure on passage would be catastrophic and not worth the risk in my book.


----------



## crassius

*Re: Allures 39.9*



bjung said:


> considering hull #1 has yet to be finished?


Hull #1 is finished and has just been launched. It is now available for scheduled press and prospective client sails.

Pictures of her in the water are on last page, post #3983



bjung said:


> Do they even have a definite price yet,


Can't attach a PDF price list or standard inventory and options lists with prices. PM me if you want by email 

Starts at 255,000 Euro


----------



## PCP

*Re: Allures 39.9*



bjung said:


> ...
> One complaint: The powerboat style portlights in the hull are huge and fairly low to the WL, and in my opinion out of place for a dedicated blue water cruiser. I know, more light down below, but the possibility of their failure on passage would be catastrophic and not worth the risk in my book.


It will have to do with the way they are mounted. They can be bullet proof. Sure in 15 or 20 years they would have to be changed but that seems to be a small price to pay for enjoying the scenery.

Anyway I am quite sure that if you say you don't want them they would not have any problem in providing you a hull without openings and save some bucks in the process

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Aluyacht 480*

Since we are talking about Aluminium boats let me present the AY 480, the Italian voyage boat. I don't think it is as well designed as the Allures, even if it is a fixed keel boat, built like a tank.

It is a Zerbinati design and the boat has an interesting story. It started to be a Dudley Dix design, one of those you can buy on internet but they had trouble in making the boat by the plans and they hired Zerbinati to make things operational. In the end they did not liked the boat and asked Zerbinati to make a better one and this is the result.

The boat has a bulbed keel with 2.30m draft and a D/B ratio of 32%. That and a 4.5m beam will give it a huge stability.

I like the power and stability, not much the design. I am waiting for the next generation of aluminium boats, the ones that will have this power and a keel that swings up, with all the ballast on it. I know, it exists already with the Atlantic but the design is a bit too racing looking, the interior is not as good as the one on the Allures and the price is very high. I wonder who among the French builders will be the first to propose such a type of aluminium boat. I bet on Alubat for that. They need to have an innovative product to respond to Boreal and Allures.

The AY 480:


----------



## PCP

*Dragonfly*

Great movie about the history of this great fast cruising boat. It is in French but the images speak for themselves:


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria cruiser 56: on the water*

First photos of the boat on the water. A test should be published in Yacht magazine soon. The boat looks powerful and certainly a lot better than the previous model, the 55. Both were designed by Farr but this one looks a lot less bulky than the previous model. The interior looks also better, more functional, and better designed.

They sold more than 70 boats from the previous model. I bet this one will sell better. The boat has a great price, probably the lowest on the class, a big galley and an improved interior. I don't like the Garage design and I think that with a better design they could have a dinghy inside without the need to deflate it.

The interior:

Bavaria Yachtbau: CRUISER 56

Bavaria Yachtbau: CRUISER 56

Bavaria Yachtbau: CRUISER 56

It looks well on the water. Regarding performance let's wait for the test results:


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## opc11

Love the Allure 39.9! I just added it to the wishlist!


----------



## PCP

*Allures 39.9*



opc11 said:


> Love the Allure 39.9! I just added it to the wishlist!


Some more information:






Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Volta 12,20*

In fact that concept that I was talking about on a previous post, I mean ".. *the next generation of aluminium boats, the ones that will have this power (lots of it) and a keel that swings up, with all the ballast on it."* exists already but only as a custom boat made by a reputable French shipyard specialized on aluminium boats (it was there that the first two Boreal were built).

The designer is one of the best and most innovative of the new generation of French NA, Pierre Roland with Delion. I have posted already about that boat (the first one is being built) but I guess it deserves another post:

Pierre Rolland says about the boat (translated):

*THE VOLTA 12.20 is a fast cruising sailboat cruising with variable draft. Built in aluminum, it has a swing keel.

As a sailboat it is a chameleon: It is a bluewater voyage boat , fast and efficient, efficient and stable thanks to its deep draft and ballasted keel. A
Bird of the open sea that can turn in a perfect coastal cruiser due to its very small draft with the keel up.

The big RM and draft as well as the design makes it an excellent upwind boat, and a very seaworthy boat. The weight gained on ballast by this type of keel as well as the efficient hull allows a very good downwind performance and planning speeds.The keel outside the boat permits a not restricted layout with great living accommodation.

It has an effective and simple rigging. The large well protected cockpit provides an easy access to transom platform. It is protected and ergonomic in navigation while being comfortable at anchor.

It is a solid boat: The aluminum construction ensures high resistance to impact.The front and rear closed bulkheads increases security in case of open water.

It has a bright interior: The panoramic roof brings a lot of clarity in the Galley and saloon. The sea view is very pleasant in anchorage and navigation.
The galley and head are particularly thought in what regards ergonomics for use at anchor and in navigation, an important factor in a living aboard boat.

An easy sailboat: With a reasonable size, the VOLTA 12.20 is easy to maneuver with a small crew, at sea or in port.
Its program is to offer an exciting navigation and comfortable time on anchorage or marina.*

The boat weights 8000kg. That is possible due to a ballast of only 2100kg on a keel with 2.60m of draft. I would ask for more 500kg of ballast but as it is the low CG will provide already a big RM (increased by a big beam) and a decent AVS. All in all, a very interesting boat. If my plans included extensive bluewater sailing it would be something like this that I would be looking for. This boat weights less 2.3T than the Allures 39.9 for about the same sail and probably a similar RM. But that is just me that likes to have fun sailing besides liking cruising and voyaging.


----------



## Boomberries

Interesting to me, that what is obviously lacking is any sturdy hand holds in the companion way for going down the stairs. There are no handholds down below at all. I consider this important in boats designed for sailing in any sea state. Or is the focus of design, just to look pretty tied up to the dock? (not that I consider this to be an atrractive boat below decks. Simply not my cup of tea)

When I look at boats, I picture what I need when underway. That foo foo glass sink in the head, is so shallow that any water would slop over in any sort of wake or sea state. And the sharp corners will likely find the softest, most vascular foreheads in a short period of time.

Again ... in the head there are no handholds at all, and the toilet is facing the wrong way. Are folks buying these boats, actually planning to hoist sails in 20 knots and understand heeling? Do they understand what one needs for safe navigating down below to make coffee or do anything while underway? That towel rack is sure to be a point of contact for knees and thighs, and catch clothes. 

Give me a boat for sailing designed by those who actually sail it, and not one like this whose design seems to geared toward life tied up to the dock. This is not a boat that I would want to go offshore or in any sea state with. The lack of thought in the layout down below shows the priorities, and it's not for any serious sailing.


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## hannah2

Boomberry,

Which boat were you talking about?


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## Boomberries

hannah2 said:


> Boomberry,
> 
> Which boat were you talking about?


Thanks Hannah2, for asking me to clarify. I realize now that there are several possibilities. 
I was referring to the interior of the AY 480. There is one chrome handhold above the companionway that one could not reach going down the stairs. The boat looks cheap and poorly thought out. 
The Bavaria looks more thoughtfully and solidly designed below, yet still lacks any handholds.


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## PCP

*Handholds*



Boomberries said:


> Thanks Hannah2, for asking me to clarify. I realize now that there are several possibilities.
> I was referring to the interior of the AY 480. There is one chrome handhold above the companionway that one could not reach going down the stairs. The boat looks cheap and poorly thought out.
> The Bavaria looks more thoughtfully and solidly designed below, yet still lacks any handholds.


I agree regarding the Ay 480 but what you are seeing are just foto realistic images of the interior. I cannot find any real pictures. That does not mean that the actual boat does not have handholds. That would be quite dumb in a boat that is designed to be a voyage boat.

What you are seeing also regarding the Bavaria 56 is a photo realistic image and in the image that are no handholds but on the real boat they exist. Bavaria is probably among the ones that mass produce boats the brand that take handholds and attaching points more seriously. It is the only brand that has as an option an integrated permanent jacklines system.

If you look at the actual interior you will see that the Bavaria has handholds on the side and on the ceiling. That galley is a also very good in what regards cooking on voyage. Probably the same happens with the AY 480.

Have a look:

Bavaria Yachtbau: CRUISER 56

Regards

Paulo


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## hannah2

Boomberries said:


> Thanks Hannah2, for asking me to clarify. I realize now that there are several possibilities.
> I was referring to the interior of the AY 480. There is one chrome handhold above the companionway that one could not reach going down the stairs. The boat looks cheap and poorly thought out.
> The Bavaria looks more thoughtfully and solidly designed below, yet still lacks any handholds.


I do not know much about the AY 480 but what I found with these semi custom French boats is that things like hand holds are not put in until the owner tells the company where and what kind of hand holds they want. The Bavaria does have a different layout and I'm not crazy about the AY or the Bavaria layout. But I must say the Bavaria companionway has more meat on both sides for going below or coming above in rough weather one needs those bulkhead walls to brace your shoulders. That being said I would rather have the AY 480 any day for world cruising 3 times the boat in my mind.


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## getk

*Re: Dufour 36 performance*

hi David, Hi Paulo,

I am considering buying a ELAN350 or a Dufour 36P and your discussion is quite interesting to me.

Questions:

Could you explain me your ratios ? D/L , SA/D, B/D etc ...

More over I would like to find some rating for these boats ( IRC or Club Racing handicap ) so as to see if the (expected) fast boat I will buy give me a chance of winning a Club regatta.
Many thnaks for your inpout!


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## PCP

*Dufour 36 p / Elan 350*



getk said:


> hi David, Hi Paulo,
> 
> I am considering buying a ELAN350 or a Dufour 36P and your discussion is quite interesting to me.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> Could you explain me your ratios ? D/L , SA/D, B/D etc ...
> 
> More over I would like to find some rating for these boats ( IRC or Club Racing handicap ) so as to see if the (expected) fast boat I will buy give me a chance of winning a Club regatta.
> Many thnaks for your inpout!


Hi, welcome to sailnet and to this thread.

The Elan 350 and the Dufour 36p are great boats but also very different boats. Probably the Elan is faster downwind and the Dufour better upwind.

DUFOUR 36P sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

ELAN 350 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Regarding the ratios they are not mine. Have a look:

How Boat Displacement and Sail Area Affect Performance

Sailboat Ratio Information

Regarding ratings probably the best are ORCI ratings but take into consideration that same model boats can have small differences due to different sails and materials:

http://www.wne-yachting.nl/cms/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Elan350_ORCi_SWE38.pdf

http://www.avop.org/flota/cert-orc/2013/PER1607.pdf

Take into consideration that the file of that Elan regards one with 2.33m draft and that the one from the Dufour regards one with 2.17m. That will give a proportionally better upwind performance to the Elan but just because the boats have different drafts.











The speeds are very similar but the Elan is a boat that will heel more easily, specially upwind.

The chance of winning club regattas has more to do how the boat can sail to its rating than with the absolute performance of the boat. To know about that you will not find it through the boat rating but in what regards the number of races the boat is winning. In that respect is to early to know how the 36p will perform but the idea I have is that the Elan, even if a great performance cruising boat and a fast boat, is not specially good in what regards sailing to its ratio.

Maybe you should consider also a Salona. Those can sail to their ratios and have been winning races.

Start to look at the results on major ORC and IRC races. that will give you a clue about winning boats. As I have said, that has not necessarily to do with absolute boat performance but generally a winning boat is a fast boat. To see how fast it really is look for the times in real time since victories and the classification are given in compensated time.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Elan 350*

and since we are talking about the Elan 350, some images of the boat going fast downwind with lots of wind, its specialty as opposed at sailing with very weak winds, its weakest performance while racing:


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## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Dufour 36 p / Elan 350*



PCP said:


> The chance of winning club regattas has more to do how the boat can sail to its rating than with the absolute performance of the boat. To know about that you will not find it through the boat rating but in what regards the number of races the boat is winning. In that respect is to early to know how the 36p will perform but the idea I have is that the Elan, even if a great performance cruising boat and a fast boat, is not specially good in what regards sailing to its ratio.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


It is more probable that the same rating to win the one with more length, or equal length which is less rating? For example the J/122 and J/111 have almost the same rating. I can not imagine that the J/111 will win the J/122 corrected time under any conditions.


----------



## PCP

*J boats*



DiasDePlaya said:


> It is more probable that the same rating to win the one with more length, or equal length which is less rating? For example the J/122 and J/111 have almost the same rating. I can not imagine that the J/111 will win the J/122 corrected time under any conditions.


Hi! Rating has nothing to do with the length of the boat itself meaning that smaller boats can have ratings bigger than bigger boats. Only when the boats are identical in type and very near in performance, size will be a determinant factor. Regarding the J111 and J122 they are different types of boats.

That is quite confusing on J boats because they don't make any kind of distinction in the name but while the J111 is much of a racer with a skeleton interior with the minimum necessary for offshore racing the J122 is a performance cruiser with a good quality cruising interior. I would not be surprised if the J111 proved faster in almost all conditions in real time than the J122.

Take a look at this post that I posted on another thread about Jboats and their relative performance:



PCP said:


> Regarding J boats there is many times a big confusion and with a certain reason:
> 
> The boats have a similar look and contrary to other brands that somehow identify by the name racers and performance cruisers( like for instance Xyachts that have XR, XP and XC), J boats don't do it, they just are J boats, racers and performance cruisers alike.
> 
> But if you look at the interiors it is easy to separate racers from performance cruisers:
> 
> J105
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J111
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J109
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> J122
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> J133
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, yes, you can cruise in a J105 or J111 but even if they have the minimum indispensable (they are offshore racers) you can only do that in a spartan kind of way.
> 
> The J109, J122 and J133 even if they were utilized mainly for racing have a good cruising interior, can cruise comfortably like that and they can be easily improved with added tankage and some minor improvements. They are a great base for a great a seaworthy and fast performance cruiser and with some luck they can even have been rigged already that way.


Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe*

Now that it is finished, a nice resume of the race with all the great images:


----------



## Sapwraia

*Re: J Boats & ratings*

We raced & cruised a J/130 for many years - in the right breeze on the right course it had few peers but it certainly wasn't optimised for IRC out of the factory, which could get frustrating in mixed fleet club racing.

J boats got better clued onto IRC in the last 10 years (catching up to X yachts) - especially for lighter wind conditions when asymetric kites/retractable bowsprits on cruiser-racers over 10 metres had struggled to keep ahead (on time) on the downwind legs.

Asym kites have become more common place now but many of those newer boats / one-offs are also optimised better for IRC. The other big variable with 10m+ yachts, esp on short courses is whether your crew are good enough to sail to the rating ! Sometimes difficult to assess if no others of the same design in your fleet.


----------



## PCP

*Ratings: ORCI versus IRC*



Sapwraia said:


> We raced & cruised a J/130 for many years - in the right breeze on the right course it had few peers but it certainly wasn't optimised for IRC out of the factory, which could get frustrating in mixed fleet club racing.
> 
> J boats got better clued onto IRC in the last 10 years (catching up to X yachts) - especially for lighter wind conditions when asymetric kites/retractable bowsprits on cruiser-racers over 10 metres had struggled to keep ahead (on time) on the downwind legs.
> 
> Asym kites have become more common place now but many of those newer boats / one-offs are also optimised better for IRC. ....


What about ORCI in US?

In Europe it is winning rapidly acceptance over IRC. On the Sydney-Hobart race the number of boats racing on ORCI is becoming bigger each year. They have made in 2011 some interesting comparisons between the two rating systems:

*Rolex Sydney Hobart 2011 ORCi versus IRC as handicap rule :

With the introduction of the ORCi, offered by the Offshore Racing Council (ORC) as the replacement for IMS, a number of owners (amongst those Syd Fischer) have been in recent years expressing their preference for a measured, transparent rating rule. ...

It seems the number of boats entered under ORCi is slowly but surely growing, with 38 boats this year ticking both IRC and ORCi options.

The winner of the Sydney Hobart race has won in both IRC and ORC although they are two fundamentally different systems. It will be interesting to compare the two sets of results at the end of this year's race.

We talked to Matt Allen pre-Hobart about the two rules.

He explained 'ORCi addresses stability issues where IRC doesn't. The ORCi stability index is derived from the old IMS stability index which is something that we all know and trust in a comprehensive fashion. It's used today to determine whether boats meet the stability requires for the Hobart race.

'ORCi is a transparent rule while IRC is not. There are pros and cons for each rule.

'I think also measuring the stability is a good thing as long as stability is encouraged. We don't want to go back to sailing tippy boats. IMS, people thought it was in some respects a good rule but didn't encourage boats to be stable and didn't move with the times and possibly didn't encourage boats to be quick as much as one might have wanted them to be.

'I think IRC encouraged quick boats at 50 foot plus and has traditionally not encouraged boats under 50 feet or under 45 feet to be all that fast.

'There is a comment from a lot of countries where they believe that the racer cruiser is more fairly treated in ORCi than IRC.

'They tend to think that some production boats do well under IRC while other brands do not seem to be nearly as well handicapped. Under ORCi they are possibly more evenly treated. ....

Dobbs Davis from the Offshore Rating Council commented 'ORC seems to be doing a better job across a broader range of boat types than some of the other rating rules. ...

'Back in the days of IMS in the late 90s and early 2000s the measurement of stability was there but it was not accurately modelled in the performance of the VPP so the designers have worked around it.

'That's been gone since 2007 when the ORC invested heavily in better analysis to produce much more accurate results.

'Under ORCi Fast boats do fine and slow boats do fine. That's the challenge of all these rules, to make them work across the range of boat types. It is a challenge for sure but based on the results that we saw from the recent World Championships where we had 119 boats from 16 countries and in which we had that broad range of boat types, it seems to be working and it seems to be fair.

...

'It's a scientific based system with no politics, no guessing. The rule is downloadable.

'Boats are entering ORCi because they get a certificate anyway to get the stability. *

Sail-World.com : Rolex Sydney Hobart 2011 ORCi versus IRC as handicap rule

and how about a single world rating system?

*The Royal Ocean Racing Club (RORC) and Union Nationale pour La Course au 
Large (UNCL), joint owners of the IRC rating rule, have been in discussion with the 
Offshore Racing Congress (ORC) about the possibility of creating a unified 
organisation to govern yacht ratings worldwide. This initiative to bring the world 
offshore rating systems together was endorsed by ISAF following its AGM in 2009 in 
Korea.

The intention is for RORC/UNCL and ORC to create a joint venture company which 
would run the existing rules, IRC and ORC and then in time, using the combined 
knowledge and resources, evolve new rating systems that combine the benefits of 
IRC and ORC to create fast, fun and seaworthy boats for unified competition all over 
the world. *

http://www.nrv.de/uploads/media/PressreleaseRORC.pdf

http://www.rorcrating.com/images/stories/pdf/irc-orc_qa_101115_3.pdf


----------



## PCP

*Intermezzo*


----------



## Sapwraia

*Re: Ratings: ORCI versus IRC*



PCP said:


> What about ORCI in US?
> 
> In Europe it is winning rapidly acceptance over IRC. On the Sydney-Hobart race the number of boats racing on ORCI is becoming bigger each year. They have made in 2011 some interesting comparisons between the two rating systems
> 
> I'm not so familiar with ORCI but we're now doing J/22 one-design for weekend club racing and it's a breath of fresh air - close racing on the water, enjoyable camarderie and low cost. All of which frees up time & $ to focus on a serious cruising boat


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 410*

Dufour had made a great come back from its financial troubles a year ago: the 36p was boat of the year and they renovated their entire Grand Large line with new models.

We had already talked about the 500, lets talk about the 410, a very nice and modern boat, very well designed on the interior and hull design. A Felci design and a particularly elegant one. The boat follows the general tendency regarding beamy boats with beam brought back. That would give a particularly forgiving boat, an easy one to sail, not particularly good in light winds or upwind sailing but very stable downwind or in any other situation.

It is on the heavy side of cruisers, this one is 1430kg heavier than the previous model, the 405 and it is now more heavier than Bavaria 40 or a Hanse 415. It is hard to understand that huge difference in weight.

The D/B ratio is normal from this kind of boats and keels (28%) and with big beam (4.20m) and displacement it will provide a big stability to this boat.

It has only 71 sqm of sail and that will mot make it a fast boat at least with weaker winds. A very conservative boat with looks that seem to deny that.

The interior looks very bright and tidy. They opted for a spacious galley that will give plenty space to the saloon but that will shine on anchor or at the marina. No support at all to cook while sailing on the wrong tack.
































































410 - Grand Large - DUFOUR Yachts

I am a bit confused about the type of sailors that they are targeting with this boat. I mean the conservative side versus modern looks. Maybe they are right and know what they are doing. I guess i will have to wait to see if the boat will sell well or not.


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 415*

A test, now on line, by YachtingMonthy that confirms my opinion about the boat:

Among the mass production mainstream 40fts this one is one of the best if not the best for bluewater sailing. The test is made by Chris Beenson that is a very conservative sailor, very British in that sense and it is nice to see that he gives 5 stars (the maximum) in what regards trade wind voyaging and 4 stars in what regards offshore passage making.

http://www.hanseyachts.co.uk/pdf/2012-06-07_181613.pdf


----------



## PCP

*Fox 10.20 Capado*

And they are almost finishing their circumnavigation.

Sailing from Brazil to Grenade:






They went fast: Average speed on 2127 NM - 8.0K Not bad for a 10m cruising boat circumnavigating and with the needed charge for doing it.

By the way the owners of Capado, a young couple, are doing this project on a sabatic year and to have money for it they half build their boat and they are going to sell it at the end of their voyage. Could be interesting for someone looking to a small fast bluewater boat ready to go for another circumnavigation and with all problems sorted out.

...


----------



## Daily Alice

*"Kiwi Spirit" Paris 63 (Farr designed) - 'green' Circimnavigation*

Here is an interesting campaign. Any comment on this boat design? "A dual-purpose boat."










Kiwi Spirit: A 63-foot Globe Girdler from Lyman-Morse | Cruising World
"Paris 63, designed by the engineers at Farr Yacht Design ... Stanley's boat-the appropriately named Kiwi Spirit ... is fit out as a lavishly appointed cruising boat with full amenities, including staterooms, a powerful diesel, a generator, refrigeration.... However, when Stanley takes off for the high seas, almost all of it will be gone.... the modular furniture and the heavy-duty machinery-can be removed via the companionway ... goals will be the first-ever completion of a completely green, non-stop and non-assisted passage, with nary a drop of fuel aboard. Instead, for power, he will rely on a suite of solar panels, a series of wind generators, and a quartet of hydro-generators, the juice from which will be stored in a bank of ion phosphate batteries ... Kiwi Spirit, with a lifting keel and a convertible interior, is most certainly the definition of a dual-purpose boat."

Dr. Stanley Paris - Kiwi Spirit, a custom designed 63-foot yacht

Built in Maine by Lyman-Morse
Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine

Fair winds, Dr. Paris


----------



## Faster

Here's the only underwater view I could find on this project..

http://www.lymanmorse.com/documents/Ocean_Navigator_One_Step_Closer_20121217_143842.pdf


----------



## PCP

Daily Alice said:


> Here is an interesting campaign. Any comment on this boat design? "A dual-purpose boat."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kiwi Spirit: A 63-foot Globe Girdler from Lyman-Morse | Cruising World
> "Paris 63, designed by the engineers at Farr Yacht Design ... Stanley's boat-the appropriately named Kiwi Spirit ... is fit out as a lavishly appointed cruising boat with full amenities, including staterooms, a powerful diesel, a generator, refrigeration.... However, when Stanley takes off for the high seas, almost all of it will be gone.... the modular furniture and the heavy-duty machinery-can be removed via the companionway ... goals will be the first-ever completion of a completely green, non-stop and non-assisted passage, with nary a drop of fuel aboard. Instead, for power, he will rely on a suite of solar panels, a series of wind generators, and a quartet of hydro-generators, the juice from which will be stored in a bank of ion phosphate batteries ... Kiwi Spirit, with a lifting keel and a convertible interior, is most certainly the definition of a dual-purpose boat."
> 
> Dr. Stanley Paris - Kiwi Spirit, a custom designed 63-foot yacht
> 
> Built in Maine by Lyman-Morse
> Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine
> 
> Fair winds, Dr. Paris


Interesting stuff. Thanks for having posted about it.

Nice boat but no secrets here. Farr had chose for the job a boat clearly inspired on Open 60's (he designed a few), almost as beamy with about the same draft (keel down), torpedo keel and two rudders.

Obviously Paris is after some kind of record otherwise he could ave just picked a standard 60ft Aluminium Cigale and do the same with a fraction of the cost (putting all the stuff the boat needs to be autonomous).

I guess that autonomy would be the main problem. If the Acciona would not have capsized (after having lost its keel) already near the end of its circumnavigation there would have no record to beat, except the one in what regards age and regarding those kinds of records, I mean kinder garden girls circumnavigating and old men for a reference time, well, I have already said what I think and I don't like it.

Everything will go alright if the hidrogenerateurs are working bur we saw on the Vendee Globe that some had big troubles with them (hitting debris) and if they are gone it would be difficult or impossible to get the needed energy.

Anyway if what Paris wants is a reference time he should do it on a racing Open 60. On the next Vendee Globe, if not soon, somebody is going to finish what Acciona was close to do and beat by far the time he can make with that boat, even if a fast boat for a cruising one.

Skipper - Vendée Globe 2012-2013

Anyway, the best of luck to him even if doing that with 76 years does not seem reasonable to me. There are no miracles and a man with 76 years is more prone to all kind of health problems and requires to be checked regularly not to mention more fragile bones and a bigger risk of breaking one due to an accidental fall. We are talking about being probably 5 months without any kind of assistance. On a 76 year old man that is a big risk, far bigger than the one of having problems with the boat (energy problems apart).

Anyway, the boat looks great even if I don't understand why the water length was not maximized. Maybe it has to do with the personal taste of Paris in what regards the shape of the bow. I cannot see any other explanation for Farr to have used an old bow shape on a modern boat.














































Regards

Paulo


----------



## Daily Alice

the discussion of the Watt&sea hydrogenerator is also interesting:

http://www.lymanmorse.com/documents/Ocean_Navigator_Electricity_From_Heavy_Water_20121217_143912.pdf

The boat is also being proposed (with a bit of reading between the lines) as a production prototype: "A successful circumnavigation will demonstrate that with modern design and at a reasonable cost a boat can be produced in the United States that can solo circumnavigate, entirely green and in record time thus demonstrating a fast short handed family cruiser. ... All cruise boats should be capable of being sailed solo. Even if there are three on board." []Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine

And one notices with near amazement the absence of corporate logos plastered everywhere. Considering the times we live in, there seem several unique aspects to the project, and campaign.

Oh Paulo, you wrote: "Anyway if what Paris wants is a reference time he should do it on a racing Open 60." But I think Paris makes the point (as you have) that at his age and thus ability, he wants a certain comfort and safety level or cushion. And he seems hardly decrepit! He has every possibility of achieving his goals, and so what if they are exceeded later? That seems always the case, as time marches on. To my eye, well the boat looks fantastic.


----------



## knuterikt

*Re: Transat Bretagne-Martinique*



PCP said:


> Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013
> 
> and a girl, on his firs Transat, a Norwegian:
> 
> *Kristin Songe-Moller (Sponsor Me): "Going into my first transatlantic race, the weather is complicated and hard and is not easy to understand. This week, it felt like I was running around in all directions, unable to do whatever I wanted to finish. I am preparing myself for a hard few days and I'm feeling a lot of stress because my goal is to really get to the finish. My boat is not as well prepared as the favourites and my sails are already worn, so I have to protect them for as long as possible. It would be catastrophic for me not to make it to Fort-de-France. I have put all my savings into taking part in this race. I cannot imagine giving up."*
> 
> Figaro Transat Bretagne-Martinique 2013 start | The Daily Sail


Six days into the race Kristin lost the mast.
She managed to rig a jury rig and she is now sailing towards Portugal.


----------



## PCP

Daily Alice said:


> ...
> 
> The boat is also being proposed (with a bit of reading between the lines) as a production prototype: "A successful circumnavigation will demonstrate that with modern design and at a reasonable cost a boat can be produced in the United States that can solo circumnavigate, entirely green and in record time thus demonstrating a fast short handed family cruiser. ... All cruise boats should be capable of being sailed solo. Even if there are three on board." []Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine


Yes Alice, I has saying, the point is not US not being able to do such a boat. That is ridiculous. US produces some of the best boats around, unfortunately not mass produced ones in my opinion. What US brands need is to command designs to top designers and that is what did Paris. If Catalina or Hunter does the same there will be a huge increase in produced boats.



Daily Alice said:


> ....
> Oh Paulo, you wrote: "Anyway if what Paris wants is a reference time he should do it on a racing Open 60." But I think Paris makes the point (as you have) that at his age and thus ability, he wants a certain comfort and safety level or cushion. And he seems hardly decrepit! He has every possibility of achieving his goals, and so what if they are exceeded later? That seems always the case, as time marches on. To my eye, well the boat looks fantastic.


Maybe you have understand me wrongly. When someone wants to achieve something it is important to understand what is the achievement. If what he pretends is to establish some sort of geriatric record regarding circumnavigating solo he could have done it at a third of the price (or less) on the several boats available on the market, specially as you point out, he is has no sponsorship.

Regarding comfort, speed doesn't go with comfort and his boat is a very fast one, a very radical performance cruiser. He would be a lot more comfortable in a slower and less extreme boat. If what he wants is a performance record that goes with his geriatric record than an adapted solo race boat would be the way to go. If sailed conservatively and with a smaller rig it would not be harder to sail that this one, quite the contrary, since the sail area would be a lot smaller and the stability bigger. One that goes for a 4 months speed record has not has his main priority comfort. that is just what I meant.

Regarding age the most famous sailor is Sato, a Japanese one and I don't think that he does that for fame or for breaking geriatric records since he has circumnavigated already 8 times. He does that because he likes to do that and has done that repeatedly, racing and cruising. Even so on his last circumnavigation against the prevailing winds at the age of 77 he experienced an emergency hernia operation, back pain and a knee operation. Heart tablets had also to be delivered.

Paris is an experienced sailor (three North Atlantic crossings, three from Alaska to New Zealand and one circumnavigation) but contrary to Sato he is not an experienced solo sailor.

I hope everything goes well for him but has I have said I do not support geriatric records or infantile ones. In the first case its seems to me that the risks related with health hazard are dis-proportionally high and that makes just no sense.

By the way, by his own words he is trying to beat 4 records:

*1 - Oldest to have circumnavigated non-stop (by some 18 years)

2 - Fastest in a cruising boat - the record is 150 days and I am shooting for 120-days, from Bermuda back to Bermuda aiming for Dodge Morgan's record from 1986.

3 - New record to be established from St. Augustine, Florida and back again via Bermuda (no-stopping there)

4 - First ever green using no hydrocarbons, no gas, no diesel. Not even propane or butane.*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Transat Bretagne-Martinique*



knuterikt said:


> Six days into the race Kristin lost the mast.
> She managed to rig a jury rig and she is now sailing towards Portugal.


Those are really bad news. She wanted so much to finish that race

She had invested everything on that boat. Really sad for her.

Nice to see that someone else is following the race:

http://transat-bretagnemartinique.geovoile.com/2013/

It seems that after two big storms they have now an easy way to America. The race has been great. I am a fan of Tabarly, the one that is currently in third. He is the descendant of a great family of professional sailors and I would love to see him raise to that very exclusive first division, racing with the best, on Open 60.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

Though I do not support geriatric egos and the men and women my age (61) or older breaking records. But I do hope that Mr Paris breaks Dodge Morgans record. Dodge Morgan was a true New Englander and a fine sailor for his time. I enjoyed the film made of his record sail back in the 80's, that I believe was one of the first attempts at modern day sailing with electronic instrumentation. Mr Paris looks like a fine man I wish him well and good health.

And I like the non advertising on Paris's boat also, you would think he was a Yankee New Englander too.


----------



## Daily Alice

Hi Paulo,

You seem to have some animus about the age of Dr. Paris? It seems solo sailing circumnavigation for records is risky enough, so I suppose age is one additional risk factor. You wrote:



PCP said:


> Maybe you have understand me wrongly. When someone wants to achieve something it is important to understand what is the achievement. If what he pretends is to establish some sort of geriatric record regarding circumnavigating solo he could have done it at a third of the price (or less) on the several boats available on the market, specially as you point out, he is has no sponsorship.


I can see your point in the abstract, yet I think there are evident answers to your question in the actual boat, as designed. What was designed is, rather obviously what he wanted, don't you think? From this evidence we can use inductive logic to at least partially hypothesize the reasons and rationales for the desired design brief. And in fact on some counts (like this is a cruising boat and "dual purpose") it seems life neither begins nor ends for this boat or skipper with this particular campaign.



PCP said:


> Regarding comfort, speed doesn't go with comfort and his boat is a very fast one, a very radical performance cruiser. He would be a lot more comfortable in a slower and less extreme boat. If what he wants is a performance record that goes with his geriatric record than an adapted solo race boat would be the way to go.


Of course, it may be that he wishes to be as comfortable as possible. This begs the question, how much more "comfort" does this Paris 65 afford, compared with a more pure race boat, as you suggest, for a record? Do you have an opinion on this?



PCP said:


> If what he wants is a performance record that goes with his geriatric record than an adapted solo race boat would be the way to go. If sailed conservatively and with a smaller rig it would not be harder to sail that this one, quite the contrary, since the sail area would be a lot smaller and the stability bigger. One that goes for a 4 months speed record has not has his main priority comfort. that is just what I meant.


Looking at this design, one question I have -- not knowing so much about many new technologies (materials, construction, hydrodynamics, etc.), is to what extent is this boat presenting something new? Can it be compared to other existing models (such as the many you present in this thread)? And, let's examine if there is a new feature -- like that you can remove the interior? It seems a bit out of the box.



PCP said:


> Regarding age the most famous sailor is Sato, a Japanese one and I don't think that he does that for fame or for breaking geriatric records since he has circumnavigated already 8 times. He does that because he likes to do that and has done that repeatedly, racing and cruising.


Yes, and he is really a hero in my adopted country. Well, many sailors seem rather eccentric, and I include myself in this determination. I think to myself, if I had the juice, financially, physically, and with experience -- wouldn't it be interesting to not just "go gentle into that good night"? Personally, I cut a lot of slack for vision. And the good Doctor will be teaching students along the way.



PCP said:


> Even so on [Sato's] last circumnavigation against the prevailing winds at the age of 77 he experienced an emergency hernia operation, back pain and a knee operation. Heart tablets had also to be delivered.


Sato is such an unusual case. I mean stuff [insert stronger vocab. here] happens when you spend literally decades at sea . . .



PCP said:


> Paris is an experienced sailor (three North Atlantic crossings, three from Alaska to New Zealand and one circumnavigation) but contrary to Sato he is not an experienced solo sailor.


Maybe the boat design is related to meshing with Paris' capabilities. As you point out, above, he has massive experience and may really know (have a good idea) what will work, for him? And there is the team effort -- and some designer named Farr, hmm...



PCP said:


> I hope everything goes well for him but has I have said I do not support geriatric records or infantile ones. In the first case its seems to me that the risks related with health hazard are dis-proportionally high and that makes just no sense.


I am pretty neutral on the geriatric side. Because mid-70s these days does not always mean geriatric, in the sense you seem to imply (like: foolhardy).



PCP said:


> By the way, by his own words he is trying to beat 4 records:
> 
> *1 - Oldest to have circumnavigated non-stop (by some 18 years)
> 
> 2 - Fastest in a cruising boat - the record is 150 days and I am shooting for 120-days, from Bermuda back to Bermuda aiming for Dodge Morgan's record from 1986.
> 
> 3 - New record to be established from St. Augustine, Florida and back again via Bermuda (no-stopping there)
> 
> 4 - First ever green using no hydrocarbons, no gas, no diesel. Not even propane or butane.*


Right--so #2 has something to do with the design choice, also that after completion, the boat wants to re-convert back into an awesome world cruiser? Not a bad, if you can have it.

Do you think there are innovations on the green side, here? I mean not just new technologies, but a kind of systems integration?


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> Though I do not support geriatric egos and the men and women my age (61) or older breaking records. But I do hope that Mr Paris breaks Dodge Morgans record. Dodge Morgan was a true New Englander and a fine sailor for his time. I enjoyed the film made of his record sail back in the 80's, that I believe was one of the first attempts at modern day sailing with electronic instrumentation. Mr Paris looks like a fine man I wish him well and good health.
> 
> And I like the non advertising on Paris's boat also, you would think he was a Yankee New Englander too.


Don't take me wrong I do have an huge respect and admiration for those that with an advanced age (for the Sport they practice) beat themselves with younger and apparently more fit sportsmen in equal terms for absolute records or race results more even if they prove to be better.

The issue here for me is a specific record based not on performance but on the age of the one that is establishing it and that is his main priority and the first one on his list of achievements:

*1 - Oldest to have circumnavigated non-stop.*

I have an huge respect and admiration by sailors like 69 year old Loick Peyron that last year beat the absolute (crewed) world circumnavigation record or 57 year old Francis Joyon that 5 years ago beat the absolute solo circumnavigation record, some month ago beat the central solo Atlantic record and that is waiting a good meteo window for the North Atlantic record.

But a 76 old man being competitive solo sailing in absolute terms competing with younger sailors? No way. I don't believe that even one of the greatest sailing champions like Loick Peyron would be competitive with 69 solo sailing.

A record based on performance for an advanced age has no meaning to me. What about an athletics 100m record time for 70 year old men and to 80 and 90 year's old men. That seems ridiculous and it is ridiculous in my opinion.

I have the utmost respect for the ones that with old age keep on cruising for the pleasure of cruising and voyaging and I know of some with more than 80 and I only hope to be able to do the same, but someone that at the age of 76 is trying to establish a sail record for his age seems to me only be doing a foolish thing, no different to try to establish any other sports record for an advanced age.

Enough of this. Everybody can have its own opinion about this, but if someone wishes to discuss this further please open a thread about the value and interest of relative records based on advanced age performance, sailing or otherwise.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Daily Alice said:


> Hi Paulo,
> ....
> Do you think there are innovations on the green side, here? I mean not just new technologies, but a kind of systems integration?


I don't know if they are innovative they say very little about it but if they permit the boat to circumnavigate, yes. That is for me the interesting part of this circumnavigation and one that we all can profit.

If you have following this thread you have seen the systems Acciona had in board to produce energy and they seemed to work and make possible a circumnavigation. Here there is not the energy required by a canting keel but the fact that it will take a lot longer to circumnavigate makes it equally interesting.

Very few information regarding the electric systems:

http://www.lymanmorse.com/documents/Ocean_Navigator_Electricity_From_Heavy_Water_20121217_143912.pdf

Except the hidrogenerators that are used here on Ocean racing and cruising for some years now. But that would not be enough, I guess he is using very expensive lithium batteries and I would like to know more about that, the number and type, the type and power of electric engine and the back up power system. Acciona used for that electricity produced by a sophisticated chemical way. I wonder what they will use on this boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Daily Alice

Thanks Hannah,

I am by birth a New Englander too (emoticon of 'pride' here). we must be careful not to go OT on this thread but I'd like to thank you for mentioning 



 -- a little history doesn't hurt. (The film is linked on the wiki page.)

This is a thread about interesting production sailboats, though in 400+ pages it's traversed some interesting fringes. When I contemplate the Paris 65, I wonder if it can be seen as a (potential) proof of concept for the older sailor, and a green sailor. What I mean is:

Easily sailed solo
Offshore capable
Does not require 20-30-something physical strength to operate
Performance cruising in modern speed terms
Relatively affordable (as stated)
Green is rather attractive, don't you think?
Works for the older capable sailor

I would like to add a comment: I live in Kyushu, and crew on various boats. The skipper/owners are mostly in their 70s. They love sailing and are very experienced. The economy crashed here in 1997, so boats are at least 18 years old. There are almost no young people who are into sailing/racing where I am. On a personal note, I'm in my 50s and I hope to sail my boat in my 70s too. In this thread we don't discuss generally the older sailor in relation to new production boats -- I mean sailors who may like to day race and/or go offshore. And it's hard for me to tell which boats in this thread would be pragmatic, in this sense -- just saying.

Well, many people are pretty spry here into their 80s, and the skipper of the J/120 I crewed on this past weekend is a gem, in his 70s. We are talking soul and culture, and expertise. I learn so much from him. And older folks want good boats too I guess.

Anyway, yachting is collapsing here, and this is the sad truth. Sorry for my hijack of this thread... but to return on-topic, now the point has been raised, I wonder what new boats I'd recommend to my 70s skipper of a J/120, so he can sail as he likes into his 80s. Seriously. And I mean, are there some good examples already presented in this thread? Which would you (Paulo, anyone) suggest, if you don't object to the question?



hannah2 said:


> Though I do not support geriatric egos and the men and women my age (61) or older breaking records. But I do hope that Mr Paris breaks Dodge Morgans record. Dodge Morgan was a true New Englander and a fine sailor for his time. I enjoyed the film made of his record sail back in the 80's, that I believe was one of the first attempts at modern day sailing with electronic instrumentation. Mr Paris looks like a fine man I wish him well and good health.
> 
> And I like the non advertising on Paris's boat also, you would think he was a Yankee New Englander too.


----------



## PCP

*Sailboats to old sailors.*



Daily Alice said:


> Thanks Hannah,
> 
> ....
> 
> This is a thread about interesting production sailboats, though in 400+ pages it's traversed some interesting fringes. When I contemplate the Paris 65, I wonder if it can be seen as a (potential) proof of concept for the older sailor, and a green sailor. What I mean is:
> 
> Easily sailed solo
> Offshore capable
> Does not require 20-30-something physical strength to operate
> Performance cruising in modern speed terms
> Relatively affordable (as stated)
> Green is rather attractive, don't you think?
> Works for the older capable sailor
> 
> I would like to add a comment: I live in Kyushu, and crew on various boats. The skipper/owners are mostly in their 70s. They love sailing and are very experienced. The economy crashed here in 1997, so boats are at least 18 years old. There are almost no young people who are into sailing/racing where I am. On a personal note, I'm in my 50s and I hope to sail my boat in my 70s too. In this thread we don't discuss generally the older sailor in relation to new production boats -- I mean sailors who may like to day race and/or go offshore. And it's hard for me to tell which boats in this thread would be pragmatic, in this sense -- just saying.
> 
> Well, many people are pretty spry here into their 80s, and the skipper of the J/120 I crewed on this past weekend is a gem, in his 70s. We are talking soul and culture, and expertise. I learn so much from him. And older folks want good boats too I guess.
> 
> Anyway, yachting is collapsing here, and this is the sad truth. Sorry for my hijack of this thread... but to return on-topic, now the point has been raised, I wonder what new boats I'd recommend to my 70s skipper of a J/120, so he can sail as he likes into his 80s. Seriously. And I mean, are there some good examples already presented in this thread? Which would you (Paulo, anyone) suggest, if you don't object to the question?


Alice you are very much welcome, as anyone else, to this this thread. I just didn't want to start here a discussion about the merits of sailing records based on age: very young or very old. Not that it is not an interesting debate but not as a main focus on this thread.

I guess that the question you asked is a good one but without a single answer. That depends very much on the sailor experience, tastes and the use he is going to give to the boat, if he is going to sail it solo or with crew..

Almost all mass production boat production are made with the older sailor and short crew (or solo) in mind because it is them that have the money and are buying the boats so I would say if he is going to buy a modern boat almost any mass production boat particularly 40ft and over are suited, depending on the options, unless he wants particular uses to the boat (racing, bluewater cruising, voyaging).

Particularly I would prefer a smaller performance boat (38ft) with less mechanical assistance (electrical winches, assisted docking and so on) but I am part of a minority.

Some that sail solo would even prefer a smaller boat (32 to 36ft) but normally it is the best sailors, I mean among the older ones, that chose smaller boats, boats that they can completely exploit and that their knowledge permits to sail safely and fast. However a bigger boat, even if not so fun and in many cases not as fast, will have a bigger safety margin to a less knowledgeable sailor. The same can be said generically regarding heavier boats face to lighter boats, if the sail area is not much different.

Not knowing the sailor or his tastes and assuming a really old one (70 or so) a conservative taste, a typical cruising program, a quality slightly above the usual and a reasonable dealership in the US I would say this one:
















The boat is made by Hanse and your friend will have the pleasure of sailing in a boat designed by an American Na, one that normally design bigger yachts, Bill Dixon.

http://sailing.com.ua/files/1/moody41C_Brochure_eng_08.pdf

If you search on this thread you will find more information.

Of course, if at 70 he feels the strength and the desire to do long voyages to remote places, than talk to Hannah, I guess that he has one of the boats that it is fit for that, even if the sailor is not young anymore. As I said most of those boats, even voyage boats are bought bu people over 50 so they are thought to be easily sailed.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

Daily Alice said:


> Thanks Hannah,
> 
> I am by birth a New Englander too (emoticon of 'pride' here). we must be careful not to go OT on this thread but I'd like to thank you for mentioning Dodge Morgan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- a little history doesn't hurt. (The film is linked on the wiki page.)
> 
> This is a thread about interesting production sailboats, though in 400+ pages it's traversed some interesting fringes. When I contemplate the Paris 65, I wonder if it can be seen as a (potential) proof of concept for the older sailor, and a green sailor. What I mean is:
> 
> Easily sailed solo
> Offshore capable
> Does not require 20-30-something physical strength to operate
> Performance cruising in modern speed terms
> Relatively affordable (as stated)
> Green is rather attractive, don't you think?
> Works for the older capable sailor
> 
> I would like to add a comment: I live in Kyushu, and crew on various boats. The skipper/owners are mostly in their 70s. They love sailing and are very experienced. The economy crashed here in 1997, so boats are at least 18 years old. There are almost no young people who are into sailing/racing where I am. On a personal note, I'm in my 50s and I hope to sail my boat in my 70s too. In this thread we don't discuss generally the older sailor in relation to new production boats -- I mean sailors who may like to day race and/or go offshore. And it's hard for me to tell which boats in this thread would be pragmatic, in this sense -- just saying.
> 
> Well, many people are pretty spry here into their 80s, and the skipper of the J/120 I crewed on this past weekend is a gem, in his 70s. We are talking soul and culture, and expertise. I learn so much from him. And older folks want good boats too I guess.
> 
> Anyway, yachting is collapsing here, and this is the sad truth. Sorry for my hijack of this thread... but to return on-topic, now the point has been raised, I wonder what new boats I'd recommend to my 70s skipper of a J/120, so he can sail as he likes into his 80s. Seriously. And I mean, are there some good examples already presented in this thread? Which would you (Paulo, anyone) suggest, if you don't object to the question?


I don't think you are hijacking the thread at all. When we get to that age where things are very different than when we were 40 or younger both physically and mentally then we should be looking at what we are sailing and why. One more thing is I get turned off by those who believe we are young at an old age. I do not think so, yes at 61 I'm younger and in far better health than my parents. But I feel always we must be honest and understand we are not so young. Physically I workout every day at the gym, workout with my athletes in track and field doing plyometrics. Mentally I read constantly and do as much as I can to keep the brain strong and alert. But I know damn well I can not handle certain situations like I could at 40, handle them yes but not as well. Now when I cross oceans and understand my age and its pluses and it minuses I can prepare so much better than if I foolishly thought I still 40. Every morning I wake up with some ach or pain, I don't sleep as well as I use to. I just have to say to myself, "yes I'm getting really old but so what find a real way of dealing with it and move on." I hope that one day down the road that if need be I will recognize when I'm too old to do what we are about to do again and go back home to growing veggies. I do not want some awful accident or heart attack in the wrong situation to put my wife in a serious situation. That is why I worry about some geriactics egos, they don't know when to quit.

Before we decided on our new boat my wife and I discussed if the design would be suitable for our age. I went over to France and did sea trials and came back convinced that the new boat is easier to sail both physically and mentally than the more traditional blue water boat we have sailed in the past. The boat tracks so well and easily, the sail plan and setup works very well only going on deck to reef. The doghouse gives us a watch station that is out of the weather without compromising the boats design. Even in the tropics a couple of days of rough weather and spray coming into the cockpit can make for cold and uncomfortable sailing which makes one far more tired and that's not good with days to go on a passage. The boat is faster than our previous boats and it took me years of sailing to be convinced that is important but it really is don't let anyone ever tell you differently. Having the centerboard design we feel we can find more secure anchorages out of the weather when the shat hits the fan. Not always the case but having that option and using it when possible sure beats having to scramble to put out second anchors, worrying as much about dragging every time bad weather hits in some atoll or bay surrounded by large mountains and down drafts. Also as I get older I don't know if I'm as good of a docker as I used to be so having the aluminum hull I can bang into things a little more than I use to.

I know there is going to be for a long while many on this side of the pond especially who will always believe that new design is bad and the old ways good. In some cases they are right but many times they are not. I'm just glad that in countries like NZ, Aussyland, S. Africa and Europe there are people who want to try and improve on the old and many time do just that. And thank you Paulo once again for giving a heads up to many new designs from around the world.


----------



## knuterikt

*Re: Transat Bretagne-Martinique*



PCP said:


> Those are really bad news. She wanted so much to finish that race
> 
> She had invested everything on that boat. Really sad for her.
> 
> Nice to see that someone else is following the race:
> 
> Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013
> 
> It seems that after two big storms they have now an easy way to America. The race has been great. I am a fan of Tabarly, the one that is currently in third. He is the descendant of a great family of professional sailors and I would love to see him raise to that very exclusive first division, racing with the best, on Open 60.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Sorry if I'm wearing this thread off course..
Found this post here Kristin Songe-Møller om mastebruddet : kappseiling.no - seiling og kappseiling

I think this text can stand without any comments..


> First of all, I'd like to say that I'm well and there are no damages on my hull. Dispite the situation I'm in good spirit. There's not much I can do, but solve the situation in the best possible way. So, I was reaching, sailing about 12 knots. Windspeed about 27 knots. I had one reef in the main, and solent. (I'd been doing some repairs of my mainsail the day and the night before, sewing and taping tears in the leach, and replacing the broken leachline with a new one, so I wanted to be a bit careful with my main&#8230 I was down below, just about to do a routing of how to sail around the highpressure in the Canaries, when I heared the big crash. From the corner of my eye, out of the window I sa w my green mainsail. I think I screamed and shouted whilst I, without even thinking, grabbed my toolbox and ran up into thecockpit. I did a quick check to see how the mast was lying in the water. Luckily it was not touching the hull. Then I started getting the rig off. I took with me the hacksaw, hammer and a pliar on deck. I used the pliar to take the splints out and the hammer to knock the bolts out. It was supprisingly easy. I cut all the ropes and wires with the cockpit-knife. As the sea was fairly big, I wanted to get the mast away from my boat as fast as possible, to prevent any damages on my hull. Then I called the race director. I didn't cry. I wasn't scared. I was suprisinglig cool and levelheaded. I was extremely focused on solving the problem in the best possible way. I removd the seal from my propeller shaft, and turned on the engine, whilst I started thinking about how to set a jury rig, using the spinnaker pole(s). Then the autopilot started akting up, because the NKE had no master. Luckily I've been working a fair bit on how the NKE-systemworks, thanks to good guidance from my training-partner, Arnaud Godart-Philippe. So it didn't take me too long to take out the wires from the mast units form the bus, the ones I had cut, and reinit the pilot dispay. I tided up the pole in the companionway. And used the storm-jib, fastened to the pole downhaul on the foredeck, the spinnakerpole in the companionay, and the cled in the spinnaker barber-block. I'm heading to Portugal. Hopefully I'll get to Lagos without assistance. It's a good marina, I was there in 1999 and 2000. My worries now, is what to do next. I knew it was a bit of a gamble spending all my money on the Transat, in hope of getting a sponsor. Now I'm pretty much f**ked for that. So I don't know what to do next. I'll have to take one thing at the time. First getting my boat safely to shore, then "home" to France. Kristin


----------



## PCP

*Re: Transat Bretagne-Martinique*



knuterikt said:


> Sorry if I'm wearing this thread off course..
> Found this post here Kristin Songe-Møller om mastebruddet : kappseiling.no - seiling og kappseiling
> 
> I think this text can stand without any comments..


Not out of context at least on the broad one of this thread. I Follow solo races here if I find they interest others. Solo boats evolution has been a major influence on cruising boats and I find those races, in real time, professional ultra competitive sailors and boats with similar performance to be one of the more interesting on the sail racing panorama.

*My worries now, is what to do next. I knew it was a bit of a gamble spending all my money on the Transat, in hope of getting a sponsor. Now I'm pretty much f**ked for that. So I don't know what to do next. I'll have to take one thing at the time. First getting my boat safely to shore, then "home" to France. Kristin*

This just sucks. I hope this exposure contributes to find her a sponsor in Norway. I read that she was an Olympic sailor for Norway and that she had sailed all her live but the competition on the Figaro and the technical level is just huge. They are all professional and all trying to do their best and all of them sail and race since kids.

Even if she had a boat as well equipped as the others (and she hadn't decent sails) it would took her probably 2 or three years to be among the top. But she seems to have the needed determination let's see if Norway, I mean Sponsors, will provide her with the material conditions. I really hope so. Those series need to become international.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Thomas Coville*

and talking about top solo sailors, one of the best and also one that has been on a bad luck run on the last years. Great images


----------



## mitiempo

Bill Dixon isn't from the US, but from the UK.
Dixon Yacht Design


----------



## PCP

mitiempo said:


> Bill Dixon isn't from the US, but from the UK.
> Dixon Yacht Design


You are right!

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Journeyman 60*

Another interesting proposition as a voyage boat for high latitudes charter work:





























This is a Swedish one off and it is meant to high latitude sailing. It is was an one off but I heard about the interest to build more.

The owner and co-designer says about it:

*The Journeyman 60 yacht is designed by Jesper Weissglas. Every solution, every detail and every choice of materials is based on experience from over 30 000 nautical miles of adventure charter sailing in rough conditions, including the Across Greenland expedition with renowned Swedish adventurer Ola Skinnarmo.

Journeyman is the result of over 5 years of design work. Jesper is living his dream and his vision, but he has also had to deal with harsh economic realities and numbing obstacles - often no bigger than a single aluminum bolt. The process has involved some of Sweden's sharpest minds on aeronautical and structural design - mostly without any other reward but the thrill of being part of a project beyond the ordinary. The underwater hull is based on research by Gabriel Heyman, and the appendages are designed in cooperation with Jens Österlund.

The first yacht was built at the Alunaut Shipyard on Saaremaa in Estonia. The experienced team at the yard - accustomed to building performance workboats - put all their skills and raw enthusiasm into building Sweden's first "extreme express cruiser".

Why a new design?
Standard cruising yachts aren't designed for rough adventures. As long as the weather is nice everything is fine. The crew is happy and life is comfortable. Then, as temperature drops and the low pressures start lining up, the drawbacks of any modern cruiser (with the words "luxurious interior" written in a prominent place in the sales brochure) become apparent.

When it's 5°C, the rain is pouring and you're beating to windward against a strong gale, you don't care much for the luxurious interior. You do, however, care about the fact that the toilet can only be flushed on the starboard tack. Especially when you've been on the port tack for 14 hours. Or three days.

You care about there being nowhere to hang all your wet gear. Well, maybe you don't, if the deck ventilators are so poorly designed that large waves washing over turn the salon into a shower anyway. And the uninsulated hull contributes with a little condensation rain on top of that. In fact, the hull condensation water might the only drinkable water you get, since the water-maker doesn't work under speed because of the air bubbles in the inlet water.

This list just goes on and on. And with every new item the morale of the crew sinks lower. So, a great adventure charter journey needs a yacht designed for it. A yacht that takes care of the crew instead of having the crew take care of the yacht....
*
The Story Behind the Journeyman 60 | Journeyman 60

And the hull designer:

*Journeyman is a purposeful design for shifting weather and high latitudes&#8230; aluminium hull, rather slender, with water ballast, retracting T-keel, careful engineering. Her pilothouse is a brutal design. As an expedition yacht, she is all about efficiency.

Jesper Weissglas' hull for the Journeyman was a decent, ordinary, fast hull. Rather slender, but of very modern proportions. Blunt stem, wide stern, easy lines.

But over the past decade, we had been testing and tweaking the hull volumes, under water and above water, to make boats go faster offshore, with an easier motion and drier decks. In addition, the same changes made our designs easier on the helm and more directionally stable.
These new designs had been evaluated in a study at Chalmers University of Technology and, surprisingly, apart from having better handling and an easier motion, VMG was improved by approx. 4%. These results were also verified at SSPA, the test tank facility in Göteborg.

I cannot remember now whether Jesper Weissglas had heard about these studies when he turned to us to confirm that the hull shape would work. But I said that Journeyman could be turned into a better boat, and that the difference would be significant. I guess he was thrilled by this option but he looked at me in disbelief. And replied that we were going to be challenged in such case and that he was going to perform a CFD study of our hull design alongside his own. This trial would have to confirm what I was trying to say.

As it turned out, the design suggested by us showed much lower drag....

Combined with the expected improvements in steering, motion in a seaway and slightly increased sail area, the overall gains seemed irresistible. ..

She is just the purposeful, benevolent, fast expedition yacht she was intended to be. And she is utterly comfortable at sea.*

HEYMAN YACHT DESIGN: Expedition Yachts #1

Some facts, figures and dimensions:

http://journeyman.se/wp-content/uploads/journeyman60_leaflet4.pdf

Well, I like the concept, the interior feel and habitability inside that kind of WWII airplane bomber canopy but the look is too brutal for me. I would have made the same with a more traditional look. Besides that everything seems perfect for me, the speed, the seaworthiness and the small draft.

This is a type of boat different from the French deriveur concept of boats like The OVNI, Boreal or Allures.

The vantages and disadvantages:

Vantages:

with a very deep keel (1.8-3,8m) and a bulb at the end this boat has the potential to be much more powerful, fast and to point better upwind.

That potential for speed is increased by a much lesser weight in the needed ballast due to the point where it is collocated: 3.8m down versus on the bottom of the boat, or slightly below water line.

Disadvantages:

This type of construction makes for a considerably more expensive boat with added complexity and more maintenance.

When facing bad weather even if the boat has a bigger stability it cannot raise its keel to have a better dynamic stability and eliminate any tripping potential when pushed by a breaking wave. With this boat in bad weather the keel should stay down, otherwise the stability will be diminished, while on a French deriveur, because the ballast is not on the keel, the centerboard can be completely pulled up without any diminution on the boat stability.

A French Deriveur can be beached and has a considerable smaller draft than the one on this kind of boat.

To each one to know if the extra power, lesser weight and speed will compensate for the disadvantages. I guess that there will be opinions on both sides.

...


----------



## Daily Alice

I much appreciate reading your posts and all the information on your journey with Boreal -- one of the most amazing boats to be seen on this forum and thread, imho.

You wrote:


hannah2 said:


> But I know damn well I can not handle certain situations like I could at 40, handle them yes but not as well. Now when I cross oceans and understand my age and its pluses and it minuses I can prepare so much better than if I foolishly thought I still 40. . . . That is why I worry about some geriatric egos, they don't know when to quit.


True for me too. One sailor I crewed for, in his 60s, bought a 42' Jeanneau cruiser a few years ago, and that boat is just too big for him -- watching him manhandle the halyards, etc. His dream has been to solo circumnavigate Japan, for a start -- the boat has 3 staterooms . . . maybe a 30-something vision in a 60-something body? Well, he will manage, just doesn't seem all that happy, to be frank. Experiencing things like this, I think long about how small a boat I would choose (finances aside!) for a Pacific Rim circumnavigation (starting on the North American West coast and ending eventually in Japan (not quite a circumnavigation then)  Part of seaworthiness to my mind would be roll acceleration, motion comfort and staying dry wouldn't hurt. I am not sure which of these modern designs would meet all the specifics -- I am definitely not a "Moody" man -- not sure, because the music put me to sleep.



hannah2 said:


> I know there is going to be for a long while many on this side of the pond especially who will always believe that new design is bad and the old ways good. In some cases they are right but many times they are not. I'm just glad that in countries like NZ, Aussyland, S. Africa and Europe there are people who want to try and improve on the old and many time do just that. And thank you Paulo once again for giving a heads up to many new designs from around the world.


Ditto. Really appreciate your comments and all that Paulo posts here. Definitely an inspiration.


----------



## PCP

*The big and the small racing boats.*






Regarding the smallest offshore racers, let me remember that the next moni Transat will be raced on 13/10/2013 and limited to 84 racers. They have more than 100 pre inscriptions. The 100th is from an American, Jeffrey MacFarlane with a proto. They have 18 different nationalities. It seems that finally an offshore solo race becomes truly international and not a French affair.

http://www.minitransat.fr/sites/www.minitransat.fr/files/pdf/parcours-minitransat.pdf

Some movies with minis:


----------



## Sapwraia

*Re: Faster, Bigger Yachts *

nordic wisdom


----------



## PCP

*Mini class racer*

Small boats can also be fast

One more movie, a better quality one of Benoit training for the transat I was talking about, the 2013 one:






and some more:


----------



## One

Weird bow on that TeamWork. It looks like am Optimist pram bow with the sharp corners shaved off.


----------



## PCP

*David Raison's bopats*



One said:


> Weird bow on that TeamWork. It looks like am Optimist pram bow with the sharp corners shaved off.


Welcome. It seems you are new around these parts otherwise you would already have heard about David Raison's Mini. Yes it has a funny bow but I guess that you are going to see more soon

David Raison won with that boat the last mini big transat, from France to Brazil beating the crap of 90 other mini race boats, at an average record speed of 7.53K.

David Raison wins Mini Transat | The Daily Sail






David Raison besides a racer is a NA and after the race made and even more funny boat, an aluminium pocket cruiser (22ft). The boat is fast, tough, with a lot of interior space....and strange











Revolution 22-Voilemag from PLUSCOM on Vimeo.






revolution22 from PLUSCOM on Vimeo.






Interview Nautic 2012 - Révolution 22, le voilier à carène révolutionnaire from PLUSCOM on Vimeo.

Accueil - Afep Marine

Regards

Paulo


----------



## One

Thank you for the welcome, even if it was sarcastic. I haven't really kept up with the news when it comes to the Mini Transat, so thanks for the links and explanation


----------



## hannah2

Hi One,

I don't think there was no sarcastic comment there. Paulo's English is a lot better than our Portugese. See! But sometimes it may come across that way to us N. Americans.

Hell Paulo, that little revolution is an ocean bob sled. Another Russian Sputnik,
How much do they cost? If I was 22 I'd buy one just to sail once across the Atlantic one time then sell it. I'd bring 25 bottles of cheap wine, 5 ounces of herb and have a ball. What a wonderful little boat, far better than any 22 footer from the old days. Did you see how they did the boiler work? That was an amazing process. I wish I spoke French I would have loved to hear what the NA was saying. Heck if I was not doing something different and I had not much to do I would buy one of those little space ships and sail her to the BVI's and I'm now over 60.


----------



## One

hannah2 said:


> Hi One,
> 
> I don't think there was no sarcastic comment there. Paulo's English is a lot better than our Portugese. See! But sometimes it may come across that way to us N. Americans.


I'm Danish


----------



## hannah2

Hi One,

That must explain it then.

What do you think of these mini's? Hard to get use to looking at them but they really work.


----------



## One

hannah2 said:


> Hi One,
> 
> That must explain it then.


Hehe, yup 



> What do you think of these mini's? Hard to get use to looking at them but they really work.


I think it's absolutely great! I do think something like that prammy thing is not for me, as I like going to weather. The designer even admitted to "banging" slowing him down. I think there'd be a lot slamming into waves with that bow. But it wasn't really designed for that. Some of the other minis are more up my ally.


----------



## PCP

One said:


> I'm Danish


Hi, Yes I was being mildly sarcastic but no mean intended. When I said "these parts" I was referring to this thread, because those boat was discussed here already as the victory of the David Raison on the Transat. Anyway I really meant you are very welcomed to this thread

Regards

Paulo


----------



## jasenj1

hannah2 said:


> How much do they cost?


About 50,000 Euros according to their web site. There's a great series of photos showing the build of the first one on their Facebook page. IMHO, this has the potential to really change the industry. An aluminum hull lends itself to robotic assembly like in the auto industry. It'll be very interesting to see if they can get an automated assembly line going.

I hope they get some extensive English coverage soon so us Americans can read about them.

- Jasen.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

I was waiting for a explosion of new scow boats after the Team Work success, but it never happen.


----------



## One

PCP said:


> Hi, Yes I was being mildly sarcastic but no mean intended. When I said "these parts" I was referring to this thread, because those boat was discussed here already as the victory of the David Raison on the Transat. Anyway I really meant you are very welcomed to this thread
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Well, I _was _new to this site and in particular to this thread, and I can myself be sarcastic at times, so it's perfectly fine


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> Hi One,
> 
> I don't think there was no sarcastic comment there. Paulo's English is a lot better than our Portugese. See! But sometimes it may come across that way to us N. Americans.
> 
> Hell Paulo, that little revolution is an ocean bob sled. Another Russian Sputnik,
> How much do they cost? If I was 22 I'd buy one just to sail once across the Atlantic one time then sell it. I'd bring 25 bottles of cheap wine, 5 ounces of herb and have a ball. What a wonderful little boat, far better than any 22 footer from the old days. Did you see how they did the boiler work? That was an amazing process. I wish I spoke French I would have loved to hear what the NA was saying. Heck if I was not doing something different and I had not much to do I would buy one of those little space ships and sail her to the BVI's and I'm now over 60.


For an Aluminium boat with a lifting bulbed keel it is surprisingly inexpensive: About 50 000 euros and that include French VAT of about 20%.

Yes it is an Adventurer boat and one that can go anywhere and upwind the only problem towards other mini has to do with a bigger wave drag. Without waves of considerable size it will be faster even upwind: The bigger power will compensate the slight bigger drag on those circumstances.

I know it seems odd but Raison showed that in what regards transats, were the downwind sail is more frequent, the boat has a real speed advantage. In any transat specially between France and Brazil they also got upwind sailing, so the boat don't lose much even going upwind. You can see that without almost no waves, close upwind his boat is faster than the one of his partner, a very fast one with a conventional bow.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

Hi Paulo,

If you were not a racer and you wanted to sail one of these little mini's across the Atlantic how would they work with far less sail than what we see in the racing. The average man or women could not hold as much sail as the professionals can for 16 days or so on a crossing. 

Will we be seeing a lot of these mini's sailing oceans over the next few years? I've got a feeling there will be a lot of them around the world like a swarm of bees. 

I've already started saving my pennies and after I sell the Boreal down the road I'm going to get one of these little babies as my final yahoo. They can even bury me in one of them just sitting at the helm six feet under, mast sticking out of the ground as a flag pole.


----------



## One

LOL, that's the spirit, Hannah!


----------



## PCP

*Delphia 31*



hannah2 said:


> ...
> 
> Will we be seeing a lot of these mini's sailing oceans over the next few years? I've got a feeling there will be a lot of them around the world like a swarm of bees.
> ...


No, I don't think so because people that are interested in sailing oceans will be, like they are now, a small minority. The truth is that with just a bit more than 50 000 euros one can buy a new mass production boat faster, bigger, more comfortable and more adapted to coastal cruising:






That Revolution 22 will remain the boat for a guy that likes to voyage hassle free without not much space or comfort and the guys that like to do that are and will be only a minority. Nothing wrong with that. Sailing has many sides and tastes, all right...for different guys and with different boats to each one

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sailing and foiling.*

That's the new revolution: From the first experiences to the accomplishment with the Hydroptere and the little Moth now it is the more important research on the America's cup boats.

Planning is already possible on many performance cruising boats...what will be the first one able to foil?

A short history of foiling. It is in French but the images talk by themselves:


----------



## PCP

*Superyachts sailing*

Another stormy day on this Easter...this had been a tough year. Let's have some sun and beautiful yachts. I heard that the Loro Piana this year had a big number of superyachts, I don'y have images yet, but some older ones will do.

If you have a problem with millionaire's sailingboats remember that each of these boats gives work to 20 sailors that have the luck to be paid to sail those beauties and that without them we would not have these beautiful sights and wonderful boats.











2013 Antigua Superyacht Challenge. from A C Q U A F I L M S on Vimeo.






Loro Piana Superyacht Regatta 2012 from Superyacht Media on Vimeo.






St Barths Bucket 2012 - Sailing Yacht Regatta from Superyacht Media on Vimeo.






Antigua Superyacht Challenge 2011 from A C Q U A F I L M S on Vimeo.






SUPERYACHT REGATTA from FIFTEEN PRODUCTIONS on Vimeo.


----------



## One

Thanks for the videos. They truly are beauties to behold!


----------



## PCP

*Circumnavigating on a 22ft light and fast sailboat:*

You know all that jazz regarding being needed an heavy slow boat to do long range voyage because you need to carry a lot of stuff and then a light boat is not light anymore and it is slow and so on...Well some cannot imagine that a circumnavigation cannot be made other way than the way they would choose to do it and even think that a Pogo 12.50 is too small and light to do that with any comfort

These guys are doing it on an used 6.5m mini and they seem quite happy with their comfort  and the boat is not even a performance cruiser but an adapted racing mini.

Total Budget: 36 800 euros. Price of the boat: 16 000 euros

Good winds and fair weather to Alexandre and Florian:


----------



## FinallySailing

"Bonne Chance" to Alexandre and Florian. I've subscribed to the *You*Tube channel. Is there anywhere a link to a GPS tracker, to follow their course and progress ?


----------



## PCP

FinallySailing said:


> "Bonne Chance" to Alexandre and Florian. I've subscribed to the *You*Tube channel. Is there anywhere a link to a GPS tracker, to follow their course and progress ?


No but you can comunicate with them, they are on the facebook:

DEFI Voile 6.50 | Facebook

Their last post was about an inspection that was made to the boat by the authorities for passing the Panama Channel. They passed the inspection but:

They will have to have 6 persons aboard, they will have to rent a chemical toilet, they have to rent a more powerful engine (outboard) and they have to enter a huge caution just in the case if they will provoke any traffic disruption

They have also a site:

ideesdumonde.org | Promotion des initiatives sociales et solidaires

Regards

Paulo


----------



## FinallySailing

Thank you, Paulo !


----------



## One

PCP said:


> Their last post was about an inspection that was made to the boat by the authorities for passing the Panama Channel. They passed the inspection but:
> 
> They will have to have 6 persons aboard, they will have to rent a chemical toilet, they have to rent a more powerful engine (outboard) and they have to enter a huge caution just in the case if they will provoke any traffic disruption


With a boat of their size, I'd be considering getting it trailered or put into a container and have it transported by land.


----------



## PCP

*One....sails*



One said:


> With a boat of their size, I'd be considering getting it trailered or put into a container and have it transported by land.


Yes, I guess you are right, it would certainly be less expensive...but not as fun

One, the "name" you have chosen as a member remembers me Onesails, a top Italian sail brand. So, I guess it is a good opportunity to talk about some of their innovations and research.

An interesting one is a wing sail, but not a rigid one:






Another interesting innovation are millenium sails: They are laminated but they don't use glue or resins.

OneSails Sailmakers - The Next Generation of Sails

OneSails Sailmakers - The Next Generation of Sails

They give a two years warranty against delamination on racing boats and three years on cruising boats.






I saw the sails for the first time when I tried the Salona 38. They have them as an option and they surely look good and work well. Time will tell if the durability they advertise (not the warranty time, they say that they will last much longer) will prove true.

Lot's of top boats are using them and I don't resist to pass this movie with a wally 80. Beautiful boat, beautiful sails






Regards

Paulo


----------



## One

I'm not really interested in wing sails on a boat of mine, although it _is _an interesting concept, being able to reef it and everything.

I like the OneSails, well, sails. Especially the ones with the taffetta coverings, giving them a golden colour. If I was a racing sort of chap, I would probably go for the uncovered, but that tech is really interesting, even for a tosser like me who just enjoys big weather and having fun in waves. As a concept I think they're on to something that will take the cruising and racing world with storm. I mean, it would be possible to make a lighter sail, yet stronger than most anything out there with their method. And who doesn't like to have less weight up on top, and to have them strong enough to withstand most anything (well, for a non-racer like myself, anyway)?

For others who might join in, I can categorically state that not only do I have no connection whatsoever with OneSails, I had never heard of them until PCP posted the above links.


----------



## knuterikt

*Re: Transat Bretagne-Martinique*



PCP said:


> Those are really bad news. She wanted so much to finish that race
> 
> She had invested everything on that boat. Really sad for her.
> 
> Nice to see that someone else is following the race:
> 
> Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013
> 
> It seems that after two big storms they have now an easy way to America. The race has been great. I am a fan of Tabarly, the one that is currently in third. He is the descendant of a great family of professional sailors and I would love to see him raise to that very exclusive first division, racing with the best, on Open 60.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Kristin has arrived safely at Lagos.
From her facebook page Kristin Songe-Møller | Facebook



> Patience... it's Easter and difficult to get hold of people. I'm going to go through my engine today, so it's ready if I have to motor the 1000 nm back to Camaret. My insurance company is not too keen on that idea... so I might be able to get my boat on a truck. I don't know. Hopefully I'll know more of what to do tomorrow, when the holiday is over. I hate beeing stranded, but I'm still going strong


----------



## hannah2

*Re: Delphia 31*



PCP said:


> No, I don't think so because people that are interested in sailing oceans will be, like they are now, a small minority. The truth is that with just a bit more than 50 000 euros one can buy a new mass production boat faster, bigger, more comfortable and more adapted to coastal cruising:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That Revolution 22 will remain the boat for a guy that likes to voyage hassle free without not much space or comfort and the guys that like to do that are and will be only a minority. Nothing wrong with that. Sailing has many sides and tastes, all right...for different guys and with different boats to each one
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Exactly Paulo, There seems to be a small group of sailors who we meet around the world in very small sailing vessels. Most of the boats are old and not very sea worthy. Then there are some in the smaller New Zealand designs that make very good single handed cruising boats. I'm thinking there will be more boats like the smaller Pogo or Revolution 22 cruising all over the world because they are good boats and are affordable. Why would someone have an O' Day 22 foot boat of vintage stock and not really seaworthy when they can own a well made boat spartan as they are they still are capable of going places.

It's a new world order out there giving many a chance to sail to far off places in a more safer way.

Loved the videos of the grand J boats of yesterday and their beautiful crews, I wish my kid had gone crewing on boats like that instead of getting married and having kids at too young an age.

We are getting real busy now and less than 3 months before going to France to pickup the new boat.

Cheers


----------



## PCP

*Re: Delphia 31*



hannah2 said:


> ...
> 
> Loved the videos of the grand J boats of yesterday and their beautiful crews, I wish my kid had gone crewing on boats like that instead of getting married and having kids at too young an age.
> 
> ...
> Cheers


I passed last new year's eve in a house of a friend with a big bunch of friends. I did not know many and he presented me to another sailor. A sunshine boy, always smiling, British I suppose. We talked about boats and he said he sailed on an old one. I was imagining some kind of more or less decrepit sailboat when he said Velsheda. I asked with disbelieve: the J boat? and he said "yes, that one"...big smile on his face. And you are paid for that? "yes, lucky me" with an even bigger smile.






I guess he had reasons to keep smiling He had just some days of paid vacations in Portugal before crossing to America.

One of the good things with all those beautiful millionaire huge sailboats is that they need a huge crew and give a wonderful job to many young sailors and some older ones.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Endeavour, Shamrock and Ranger.*

Some brothers in arms. I love these boats they are just awesome


----------



## PCP

*Luca Bassani and Wally yachts*

Continuing with big yachts let's have a look at some modern ones and the big yachts that better assume modernity are the Wally.

It is easy to identify a Wally, they share all the same vision of modernity, the clean sharp lines and elegant hulls makes them easy to identify....and however they are designed by many and different NAs. All major league NAs, but very diversified.

So why they are so easily identified as Wally yachts?

The reason is the owner of the brand, Luca Bassani.

He has a vision and strong well defined ideas.

He uses NAs to give body to them. They create his vision of a yacht and so Wally, even if designed by many different NA, share a common heritage, Luca Bassani vision.

That is even more interesting since Basani is an economist not a boat builder with a long story perfecting the lines of a type of boat neither he is a designer. Wally, non withstanding its huge success, is a recent brand. He is a long time sailor but the story only begins in 1991 when he, not satisfied with what the market had to offer, builds his own boat. In 1994 he founded Wally to satisfy other sailors that were dissatisfied with the boats on the market and liked Basani boat. 19 years later Wally has the largest performance fleet of Maxi-Yachts.

So, let's have a look at the man and his dream. An interview and two movies: a very short one in English and a longer and fantastic one in Italian. For the ones that cannot understand Italian, the boats speak for themselves:

*The Monaco-based boat maker's yachts, power yachts and smaller boats all carry design characteristics utterly undreamt of until they came about.

Their dark, mysterious looks are undoubtedly head-turning, their power frightening. The minimalist lines don't give anything away; indeed they hide the yacht's interior which, in the larger variants such as the outrageous Wallypower 118, is simply spine-tingling.

It is instantly evident that design plays the lead role in these beauties. After all, any power yacht which can house a space that changes from dining room to small conference area must be special.

Wally's boats are nothing short of prodigious. To find out just how and why these seemingly fictitious concepts of arresting design exist, I chatted with Luca Bassani, Wally's founder, president and mastermind.

Incredibly, Mr Bassani not only takes charge of the whole business, but is the brains behind every single piece of marine art that comes out of Wally's headquarters in Monaco.

"What inspires you to come up with such striking yachts?"*
*"The functionality and the need to find simple solutions, lighter and more neat."*

...

*"Do you feel that your unusual designs detriment your sales, or enhance them?"*
*"We think that, as with any smart innovation, it will enhance our sales in the long term."*

*"You are a much fresher, less well-established company than the likes of Sunseeker and Princess. Do you think boats like yours are a shape of things to come for all boat companies, or will your style remain unique?"*
*"On the sail yachts, we have already carved the whole market and everybody is copying our solutions and our style. It will also happen in the power boat sector and, in fact, it is already starting to happen."*
...
*"Where do your buyers mainly come from? I haven't seen many in Monaco's port."*
*"Forty percent of our clients come from Germany, thirty percent from Italy and the rest from all over the world."*
..
Interview with Luca Bassani - Yacht Pioneer & Wally Founder





















Wally // Home


----------



## PCP

*The truth is that it is more fun in a smaller boat*


----------



## Edward3

Have been watching these forums for a couple of years and finally joined.
Really like the reviews and comments by PCP and the rest of members.
One boat in particular has now received the documentation i've been waiting for:
Jeanneau Sun Fast 3600
See here: ac-voile (need to add www and com since new members can't add links or pics)
Some new pictures including layout of cockpit layout, inventory list, VPP, IRC cert, options... comments please.
Thnks again.


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau 3600 - JPK 1080*



Edward3 said:


> Have been watching these forums for a couple of years and finally joined.
> Really like the reviews and comments by PCP and the rest of members.
> One boat in particular has now received the documentation i've been waiting for:
> Jeanneau Sun Fast 3600
> See here: ac-voile (need to add www and com since new members can't add links or pics)
> Some new pictures including layout of cockpit layout, inventory list, VPP, IRC cert, options... comments please.
> Thnks again.


 Edward, welcome to this thread and to Sailnet. It is amazing the number of new members that make their first post on this thread. You guys make me proud

I will post the pictures and links for you:














































http://www.ac-voile.com/modules/catalogue/upload/1Fiche technique du SUNFAST 3600.pdf

I have a relation of love and hate with that project:

I love the hull design, I love the power given by that hull and the high B/D ratio, I love the rigging they show on the mock set up, I love everything that regards sailing. It is going to be a hell of a boat specially in what regards solo or short crew racing. I am not sure if the boat will rate well on handicap racing, particularly in light winds but it is going to be not only a very fast sail boat as well as a relatively easy boat to sail fast.

I hate that they had not taken the opportunity to make this sailboat not only a great racer but also a great performance cruiser and in what regards that they screw it big time. I have already said about that:



PCP said:


> That interior is screaming for a small central removable central navigation place (on the top of the main table) and that would permit a big galley on the two sides of the boat, without any seat. that would make the main table smaller but who cares, it will be more than enough for two and most of the time people eats outside and that table is not a good one anyway, with a mast on the middle. A good galley, or at least an acceptable one is indispensable in any cruising boat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you and me are not the only ones pissed with that. Maybe they will, on account of sailors pressure, end up making two versions: a pure race version with a skeleton interior and one with a better interior for cruiser racers.


Besides that I would say that I will say that the boat has a problem with outside storage space in what regards cruising and a stupid one because the boat seems to have a considerable space on the transom and a big forward locker (sail locker) next to the anchor locker (my boat has that set up too and it is a practical one).

It is stupid because the access to either locker is ridiculously small, just a standard hatch. That can be acceptable on a racing boat (even if also for racing the opening for the sail locker would be much more practical if bigger) but on a performance cruiser just don't makes no sense.

Two "details" (the galley and the storage) that in my opinion limits the cruising potential of the boat and given their sailing potential, that makes me mad

The A35, a boat that probably will be the main competition has a better cruising interior, specially in what regards the galley:






It has also more storage space even if it shares the same problem in what regards to access it from the cockpit. They are projecting a new one, it deserves to be looked at, if you are on a market for a fast cruiser racer. Maybe they continue to offer a decent galley and a good storage space.

The J111 is will be probably a better boat for crew racing and a worse boat for solo racing, but even that one has a better cruising interior and a better galley. The J111 permits also the access to one of the cabins from the outside (that cabin can be transformed in a big locker).






I would say that if you want the boat for cruising and for racing (and Jeanneau will persist into making only a racing interior) wait for the new JPK 1080. That one will have a racing and a cruising interior in a boat that should present very similar sailing characteristics, including fast solo sailing:



















The JPK will be probably slightly more expensive but Jean Pierre Kelber will make it to fit you, your sailing style and the use you are going to the boat. This one contrary to the Jeanneau can be customized to a certain extent.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Et voilá, le Spi Ouest*

The race that joins more crews in different categories, the race where the top professionals race with amateurs. That was a cold one this year, but nice as usual:






girls, kids, professionals and old sailors were all there:






and the boat builders, the guys from First, Jboats and JPK were there also for the fun of racing their boats to learn, to talk and exchange ideas with their clients.


----------



## Sapwraia

*New Allures 39.9 pics - under sail*

Great to see pics of hull no.1 in action - a couple here from the allures39.9 site.

Anyone have an update on the Ovni Evolution 43 ? hull no.1 must be in build


----------



## PCP

*Allures 39.9*

Yes, the boat looks very nice:

Photo Gallery


----------



## PCP

*Allures 45*

The images are so good that I will post it on a new post. I cannot embed it but just click on the link and have a look look:

It is a Swedish boat test but the images are beautiful. If someone had doubts about the sailing performance I guess these images are enlightening.

https://hamnenplay.solidtango.com/video/allures-45-130213


----------



## PCP

*Saare 41 AC and Swedestar 415*

On another thread Rockdawg asked me to choice between a Moody 41AC and a Bavaria vision 42. I told him that they were two good sailboats but very different and that a comparison would not make much sense since they value different priorities, the Moody is more expensive and besides that my preference are not probably the same as his. My needs and tastes will probably be different and the ideal boat for me will be probably different than his ideal boat.

Talking about ideal boats, the truth is that personally none of those boats would fit my personal bill, even if I had the money to buy any of them I would no exchange them by my boat. Not even on a future perspective assuming that I am not going younger and probably it will make sense in the future a more conservative boat (well, when I am 80 year's old or something like that).

Regarding a more conservative perspective and thinking about future I could imagine me on a Xc 42 or even a Xc38. Of course they are so expensive that even if I had a lot more money I would question if that would be a wise choice. But if I need not to consider costs, there are some lucky guys in that situation, definitively they would be boats I would consider.

On a more modest perspective, I mean if I had the money to buy a Moody 41 I would certainly consider a Saare 41 AC as a cheap alternative to the Xc42. The boat has a modern hull but also classic lines, the kind that will not grow old and I like that and not only that on the Saare.

The difference in price for the Moody is not that much since on the Moody you have many extras that come already on the Saare. The differences between the Saare and the Moody have to do with more power on the Saare (even if it is heavier), more stability and all the gear you need to have a perfect control of the sails. I would be bored in the Moody with its simplistic sail shape controls. I like the Saare a lot more than the HR 415 that is a lot more expensive.

Saare 41 AC

*MOVIE:*

Estnische Baukunst: Saare 41 AC - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

But if I really had the money to buy a Xc 42 I guess that I would buy a Swedestar 415 instead. It has a huge stability and it is much more fun to sail than the Xc42 and comes also with a perfect cruising interior. I would only ask for that transom to be modified, not the hull that I like very much, but the way it is closed. I like it more open. That would not be difficult I am sure.

The Swedestar 415 has everything I like in a sailboat: Fast, comfortable, great upwind, huge stability (including reserve stability) a great cruising interior and of course, it is beautiful in a classic kind of way, one that will grow old with grace. My kind of old men's boat

Again, I am not saying that this is the logic choice to everybody. In fact it is not and it is not a question of money but a question of priorities. Money apart: If one dreams to sail to remote places this is not the indicated boat; If someone dreams to cruise and win races at top level, this is not the best boat either; If someone dreams to solo sail on the trade winds at planning speeds, this is not the right boat in fact this is not the right boat for most sailors just for some among them me and even in what regards me I am pretty sure that it would not be my ideal boat if I had 35 (I would want something more explosive and fast). T can see it as a boat for getting old with style and without being bored sailing slowly.

But I an not the only one that likes that boat. Just look at what the different test sailors said about it:

http://www.swedestar.se/Userfiles/Bild/Övriga bilder/415-quotes-roll-up-jan-2013.jpg

Swedestar Yachts from Sweden by Lidköpings Båtsnickeri, for cruising, family and racing - Modell 415

*MOVIE:*

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Schwedens-neuer-Stern%3A-Swedestar-415/09e4ab6bad112a1f51312739c81dd8cf


----------



## opc11

*Re: Allures 45*

Paulo,

What are you thoughts on having teak (or whatever teak looking materials are in use these days) on the decks?

I prefer less maintenance when given the choice and perhaps wouldn't mind it in the cockpit, but I'm not big on it covering the entire deck.

That's a beautiful Allure!


----------



## opc11

*Re: Allures 45*

I hate it when I get to the last post!

Anyway, I thought some of you might be interested in a thread about a boat project being contemplated. I've found it very enlightening in terms of thought process that goes into some decisions.

It's a 16 part series....so far.

Series: Boat Design & Selection - Adventure 40 «

Enjoy!

paul


----------



## PCP

*Teak and cork.*



opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> What are you thoughts on having teak (or whatever teak looking materials are in use these days) on the decks?
> 
> I prefer less maintenance when given the choice and perhaps wouldn't mind it in the cockpit, but I'm not big on it covering the entire deck.


As you know many use teak on boats in Europe. I had teak on my previous boat (bought new and sold 8 years later). I don't think it is a problem in what regards maintenance at least for the first 10 to 15 years and many that buy the boats new (and chose to have teak) will probably sold the boat well before having any problem with maintenance.

I guess that teak makes sense on the North of Europe, it gives a warmer fell, improves the isolation and it is a non-skid material. On the South of Europe, even if it is widely used it makes no sense because on sunny days you cannot stand with naked feet over it: Too hot.

Besides that my other criticism regards the way teak has to catch dust. It makes it difficult to clean.

Regarding other materials, most of them are some sort of plastic material imitating teak. Plastic has problems with UV and I fear none of them will last as longer as teak. There is one exception and that is cork. As you probably now cork is the bark of a type of Oak, very common here in Portugal.

It is a much better insulator than wood, it has very interesting properties and I believe sooner or later somebody will find a derived material that would be perfect for decks. There are several brands that work with cork, that is much less expensive than teak and much more easy to replace. I really don't know why it is not more used, maybe because it does not look like teak.

Of course you can have a fiberglass deck and that is what I have now but teak and specially cork make for a more comfortable one.

Seacork Northern, offset your Co2 footprint

Seacork advantages

Marine Decking Solutions - Seacork

Home




























Regards

Paulo


----------



## Sapwraia

*teak deck alternatives*



opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> What are you thoughts on having teak (or whatever teak looking materials are in use these days) on the decks?
> 
> I prefer less maintenance when given the choice and perhaps wouldn't mind it in the cockpit, but I'm not big on it covering the entire deck.
> 
> That's a beautiful Allure!


The positive development with teak decks these days is that they can be glued rather than screwed; for new fibreglass boats I never understood the logic of drilling a thousand hulls in a waterproof structure in order to apply a cosmetic veneer ! (some still do though e.g. Malo). The frightening thing is the replacement cost, which can be better value in places like Turkey than Northern Europe where its EUR25,000+ for a 13 metre yacht.

There is a theory that teak veneer does act as a structural stiffener, but it also adds weight

Re synthetic alternatives I agree with Paulo re the UV effects but for me the fake teak look doesn't feel quite right - esp as it never looks weathered ! For a colour contrast to the usual whiteness everywhere I'd be inclined to go with a good quality, subtle beige coloured non-skid paint which is nicely masked off around the deck fittings etc.

As much as I love the Allures 45 I question the thinking about running the fake teak look in a continuous run from the cockpit seats, up the bulkhead and onto the coachroof - it just looks wrong and highlights the "non-teakness" as it wraps around 2 radius corners !

cheers


----------



## Sapwraia

*Re: Adventure 40*



opc11 said:


> I hate it when I get to the last post!
> 
> Anyway, I thought some of you might be interested in a thread about a boat project being contemplated. I've found it very enlightening in terms of thought process that goes into some decisions.
> 
> It's a 16 part series....so far.
> 
> Series: Boat Design & Selection - Adventure 40 «
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> paul


I've also been following that site and the Adventure 40 discussions - all very thoughtful with great input from an experienced readership as to what works on boats / what doesn't and also what's essential and what's just "nice to have" - its almost like an online update for all the stuff comprehensively discussed in Steve Dashews Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia (a must have book for any serious cruiser even though it was published 15 years ago; it picks up well the whole trend to lighter and faster cruising yachts).

Now that the equipment specs and design parameters have been well defined it will be interesting to see which naval architect actually designs the Adventure 40's lines, as this will be the critical factor for project lift-off. Bob Perry has been suggested which would be a good thing - he has an interest in well-founded projects from the sailing community and his general design ethos sits well with my interpretation of this project.

re Bob Perry I was catching up with some of his refreshing & candid design reviews on Sailing mag's website the other day (there's a huge archive of his reviews there); he reads plans very well and offers a balanced view of design trade-offs. He's also a regular contributor to Cruising Anarchy.

cheers


----------



## Sapwraia

*Re: Saare 41 AC and Swedestar 415*



PCP said:


> On another thread Rockdawg asked me to choice between a Moody 41AC and a Bavaria vision 42. I told him that they were two good sailboats but very different and that a comparison would not make much sense since they value different priorities, the Moody is more expensive and besides that my preference are not probably the same as his. My needs and tastes will probably be different and the ideal boat for me will be probably different than his ideal boat.
> 
> Talking about ideal boats, the truth is that personally none of those boats would fit my personal bill, even if I had the money to buy any of them I would no exchange them by my boat. Not even on a future perspective assuming that I am not going younger and probably it will make sense in the future a more conservative boat (well, when I am 80 year's old or something like that).
> 
> Regarding a more conservative perspective and thinking about future I could imagine me on a Xc 42 or even a Xc38. Of course they are so expensive that even if I had a lot more money I would question if that would be a wise choice. But if I need not to consider costs, there are some lucky guys in that situation, definitively they would be boats I would consider.
> 
> On a more modest perspective, I mean if I had the money to buy a Moody 41 I would certainly consider a Saare 41 AC as a cheap alternative to the Xc42. The boat has a modern hull but also classic lines, the kind that will not grow old and I like that and not only that on the Saare.
> 
> The difference in price for the Moody is not that much since on the Moody you have many extras that come already on the Saare. The differences between the Saare and the Moody have to do with more power on the Saare (even if it is heavier), more stability and all the gear you need to have a perfect control of the sails. I would be bored in the Moody with its simplistic sail shape controls. I like the Saare a lot more than the HR 415 that is a lot more expensive.
> 
> But if I really had the money to buy a Xc 42 I guess that I would buy a Swedestar 415 instead. It has a huge stability and it is much more fun to sail than the Xc42 and comes also with a perfect cruising interior. I would only ask for that transom to be modified, not the hull that I like very much, but the way it is closed. I like it more open. That would not be difficult I am sure.
> 
> The Swedestar 415 has everything I like in a sailboat: Fast, comfortable, great upwind, huge stability (including reserve stability) a great cruising interior and of course, it is beautiful in a classic kind of way, one that will grow old with grace. My kind of old men's boat
> 
> Again, I am not saying that this is the logic choice to everybody. In fact it is not and it is not a question of money but a question of priorities. Money apart: If one dreams to sail to remote places this is not the indicated boat; If someone dreams to cruise and win races at top level, this is not the best boat either; If someone dreams to solo sail on the trade winds at planning speeds, this is not the right boat in fact this is not the right boat for most sailors just for some among them me and even in what regards me I am pretty sure that it would not be my ideal boat if I had 35 (I would want something more explosive and fast). T can see it as a boat for getting old with style and without being bored sailing slowly.
> 
> But I an not the only one that likes that boat. Just look at what the different test sailors said about it:


The Swedestar and Saare are both interesting options indeed; amazing how many low volume producers still going in Scandanavia with a common theme of stylish but traditional lines - nothing too trendy ! I'd like to step onto both for a good look around and take them for a sail.

I have never seen a Comfortina 39 in the flesh but that also has some nice features at a sensible price (but don't like the twin back stays to bottom edge of the transom - certain aesthetics like that would be a deal breaker for me !)

The challenge is to contemplate how these yachts will deliver on what we really want & need from them for much of the time we're on them. An experienced sailor friend recently bought a near new Arcona 400 and took it to the Med; found it much too lively (shorthanded) in a Biscay gale and for coastal cruising with most time at anchor is thinking 10 tonnes of displacement might have been better than 7 for a comfortable cruising experience, despite the performance loss.

I like what Moody have done with the 41AC - it does sit apart from the pack of production designs but whenever I look at it can't help but think it would have benefited from some more spring in the sheer such as with the HR412 to give that big volume hull a little more "life".

cheers


----------



## daviid

*Re: Saare 41 AC and Swedestar 415*



PCP said:


> On another thread Rockdawg asked me to choice between a Moody 41AC and a Bavaria vision 42. I told him that they were two good sailboats but very different and that a comparison would not make much sense since they value different priorities, the Moody is more expensive and besides that my preference are not probably the same as his. My needs and tastes will probably be different and the ideal boat for me will be probably different than his ideal boat.
> 
> Talking about ideal boats, the truth is that personally none of those boats would fit my personal bill, even if I had the money to buy any of them I would no exchange them by my boat. Not even on a future perspective assuming that I am not going younger and probably it will make sense in the future a more conservative boat (well, when I am 80 year's old or something like that).
> 
> Regarding a more conservative perspective and thinking about future I could imagine me on a Xc 42 or even a Xc38. Of course they are so expensive that even if I had a lot more money I would question if that would be a wise choice. But if I need not to consider costs, there are some lucky guys in that situation, definitively they would be boats I would consider.
> 
> On a more modest perspective, I mean if I had the money to buy a Moody 41 I would certainly consider a Saare 41 AC as a cheap alternative to the Xc42. The boat has a modern hull but also classic lines, the kind that will not grow old and I like that and not only that on the Saare.
> 
> The difference in price for the Moody is not that much since on the Moody you have many extras that come already on the Saare. The differences between the Saare and the Moody have to do with more power on the Saare (even if it is heavier), more stability and all the gear you need to have a perfect control of the sails. I would be bored in the Moody with its simplistic sail shape controls. I like the Saare a lot more than the HR 415 that is a lot more expensive.
> 
> Saare 41 AC
> 
> *MOVIE:*
> 
> Estnische Baukunst: Saare 41 AC - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin
> 
> But if I really had the money to buy a Xc 42 I guess that I would buy a Swedestar 415 instead. It has a huge stability and it is much more fun to sail than the Xc42 and comes also with a perfect cruising interior. I would only ask for that transom to be modified, not the hull that I like very much, but the way it is closed. I like it more open. That would not be difficult I am sure.
> 
> The Swedestar 415 has everything I like in a sailboat: Fast, comfortable, great upwind, huge stability (including reserve stability) a great cruising interior and of course, it is beautiful in a classic kind of way, one that will grow old with grace. My kind of old men's boat
> 
> Again, I am not saying that this is the logic choice to everybody. In fact it is not and it is not a question of money but a question of priorities. Money apart: If one dreams to sail to remote places this is not the indicated boat; If someone dreams to cruise and win races at top level, this is not the best boat either; If someone dreams to solo sail on the trade winds at planning speeds, this is not the right boat in fact this is not the right boat for most sailors just for some among them me and even in what regards me I am pretty sure that it would not be my ideal boat if I had 35 (I would want something more explosive and fast). T can see it as a boat for getting old with style and without being bored sailing slowly.
> 
> But I an not the only one that likes that boat. Just look at what the different test sailors said about it:
> 
> http://www.swedestar.se/Userfiles/Bild/Övriga bilder/415-quotes-roll-up-jan-2013.jpg
> 
> Swedestar Yachts from Sweden by Lidköpings Båtsnickeri, for cruising, family and racing - Modell 415
> 
> *MOVIE:*
> 
> Schwedens neuer Stern: Swedestar 415 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


Hi Paulo

Great insight into your personal likes and dislikes. There is one problem though. You never mentioned a Salona. If I were a betting man, I would put money on their being a Salona in your future :laugher

I have to say that I like the look of that Allures 39 - what a boat. It is true that one's taste in boats matures as you are involved in this beautiful pastime of ours.

Cheers

David


----------



## PCP

*Saare 41 AC, Swedestar 415 and Comfortina 39*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> Great insight into your personal likes and dislikes. There is one problem though. You never mentioned a Salona. If I were a betting man, I would put money on their being a Salona in your future :laugher
> 
> ...


Hi David,

I don't think there will be any other boat in my future than the Comet 41s that I own now. In many aspects is very similar to a Salona. I would not buy it new over a Salona because the Comet is much more expensive and the difference in price would not be justified for me. I am quite happy with it.

Regarding those two boats, I would not exchange my Comet or a Salona over a Saare. Regarding that one I was just talking about what would be ideal on a future that I hope it will never arrive, I mean the need to have a more sedate and less lively boat due to age limitations. Hell, I knew that a 83 year old guy that sails alone with his wife exchanged last year his 2008 Salona 42 by a new Grand Soleil 43 and I hope to have the stamina to keep going with lively boats even at that age

Obviously others think and fell other way:



Sapwraia said:


> ..An experienced sailor friend recently bought a near new Arcona 400 and took it to the Med; found it much too lively (shorthanded) in a Biscay gale and for coastal cruising with most time at anchor is thinking 10 tonnes of displacement might have been better than 7 for a comfortable cruising experience, despite the performance loss.
> ...


As I have said no right or wrong here but the important is to know exactly what one is buying and that it is really what he wants.

Sawpwraia, the Arcona is a boat with about 8000kg, the same type of my own boat or the Salona 41. They would perform in a gale the way they would supposed to perform. Safely but more lively than a 10 T as a 10T boat will be more lively than a 14T boat with the same length (a steel boat for instance). A 5000kg 40ft would be more lively than the Salona or the Arcona. More lively means not necessarily more dangerous but certainly demanding a more experienced sailor and involving more discomfort (and more excitement).

Part of this thread has been about that, helping finding the right boat to each sailor and that means different boats even if for the same basic purpose.

I bet your experienced friend was used to more heavier boats? and probably these was the first experience with the Arcona in a a gale? I would find it very interesting if you can ask him if he think that he had make the wrong choice for him buying the Arcona 400 (410?) or if all in all he is satisfied and that was just the right boat for him, no matter being more lively (and fast).

David, Regarding the Swedestar 415 that is another story and I would trade my boat for one in an heartbeat if someone purposes me that crazy deal and I say crazy because the Swedestar is a very expensive boat, much more than the Saare and probably 2 times the price of a Salona (or more).

That is the same type as my boat (41ft performance cruiser) but with a different design criteria, more narrow and with a much bigger B/D. Not many would prefer that design criteria but I know that I would, as I would prefer the exquisitely finished interior. I like also the idea of a classic boat that will remain classic when boats with more modern shapes (today) will become outdated and look just old. That's probably because I am getting old and I will not think in having another boat in the future.



Sapwraia said:


> ..
> I have never seen a Comfortina 39 in the flesh but that also has some nice features at a sensible price (but don't like the twin back stays to bottom edge of the transom - certain aesthetics like that would be a deal breaker for me !)
> ..


I have been inside them several times and I love the interior as well as the design criteria and the I would not care about the back-stay but if I have not a problem having a classic looking boat with a modern hull (even if in a classical tradition) I would object in having a classic looking boat with an out dated hull and the hull of the Comfortina 39 is out dated. Have a look at the two hulls:




























Even regarding the Swedestar I would have preferred a slightly larger transom and the beam a bit brought back but as it is is still acceptable for me while the one of the Comfortina looks just unacceptably old.

That would not mean much for some but would mean for me. I agree that the boat is fair priced even if you need a long list of options that would pull the price up. The boat is fast (even if slower than the Sweedstar, the Salona or my own boat). For that price and type of boat I think the Arcona 410 is a better option. You would experience in a gale the same type of behavior with all the boats mentioned, except with the Sweedstar that would be more comfortable and better upwind in really very demanding conditions. but the difference would not be that big.



















However I will agree that I like more the Comfortina interior than the one from the Arcona. Not a big difference but the Comfortina is just perfect, with an impeccable quality, except that it has not a trough the hull view, put that would not be difficult to install as an option.

Have a look at a recent test sail. I don't know what the guy is saying but I am sure he is saying nice things about the boat

*Movie:*

Comfortina 39 - en juvel

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

I just wondered why VPLP isn't planing to build a cruiser/racer. After their success in the last VG they could use the fame for a big demand...


----------



## PCP

*Guillaume Verdier*



robelz said:


> I just wondered why VPLP isn't planing to build a cruiser/racer. After their success in the last VG they could use the fame for a big demand...


Marc Van Peteghem and Vincent Lauriot-Prévost are specialists in the design of racing and cruising multihulls. They are the ones that developed with Alain Thebault the Hydroptere, the Trimaram BMW Oracle (winner of last America's cup), and the best racing trimarans among them Groupama, Crepes Whahou and more recently the giant tri Prince de la Bretagne. They also design cruising monohulls among them the entire line of Lagoons, the Sig cats as well as some very big cruising cats.

VPLP Yacht Design - Welcome

They had centered their talents on multihulls design and have no designs of cruising mono-hulls.

I am just guessing but I believe that the recent victories in Open 60 designed by them and Verdier has much more to do with Verdier then with them.

Guillaume verdier is a young very talented NA with experience in designing racing and cruising monohulls and multihulls, many in collaboration with VPLP.

He is behind the NZ america's Cup AC72. In what regards cruising his major design is the Shipman 63, working for J&J. The problem with young NA is that in what regards cruising the projects come to the hands of major firms, like J&J or VPLP and then they give them to younger and talented NA for developing in their name

But it is only a question of time for Verdier to become a big one by its own name. I bet that we will see a lot more of winning racers come out of his mind before we see a major brand call him to design a big production boat.

You have to remember that the French have a big number of talented major NA and an even bigger number of talented young NA. Among all them it is difficult to make a living. I guess that he is very well with VPLP and it is a signal of respect and honesty from VPLP (a great name in boat design) allowing the winning Vendee Globe boats to be credited to VPLP/Verdier.

An interesting interview:

guillaume verdier - architecture navale - VG 2012. Diffrences de conception...

guillaume verdier - architecture navale - Introduction Projets

Regards

Paulo


----------



## opc11

*Re: teak deck alternatives*

Paulo/Sapwraia,

Thank you both for your insights. Much appreciated.

Sapwraia, I've really enjoyed that Adventure 40 thread. It will be interesting to see if it moves any further than just design planning.


----------



## PCP

*Tabarly and the Transat Bretagne-Martinique*



PCP said:


> ...The race has been great. I am a fan of Tabarly, the one that is currently in third. He is the descendant of a great family of professional sailors and I would love to see him raise to that very exclusive first division, racing with the best, on Open 60.
> ..


Well, ti seems that it will be the case. Tabarly is making a fantastic race. To understand that you have to know that he is being pursued by the great Morvan, the 3 times France offshore solo champion, that on the last 8 days had tried usefully to recover the 50Nm that he had lost to him. 8 days later he is at 52nm with about 550nm to the finish.

Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

Why do I find it extraordinaire? Because Gildas Morvan is probably the greatest Figaro sailor, the only great one that chose to remain mostly on the class instead of racing bigger boats. Look at his race record (only looking at Podiums on major races):

*Palmares:

2012
1e Transat AG2R LA MONDIALE avec C. Dalin
...
2011
...
1e Generali Solo
..
2010
2e Championnat de France de course au large en Solitaire
2e WOW Cap Istanbul
1e Quiberon Solo
3e Transat AG2R LA MONDIALE avec B. de Broc

2009
1e Championnat de France de Course au Large en Solitaire
...
1e Transat BPE 
....

2008
1e Championnat de France de Course au Large Solitaire 
2e Solitaire du Figaro 
2e Cap Istanbul 
1e Course des Falaises 
3e Solo Arrimer 
2e Trophée SNSM
....

2007
....
3e Finale du Championnat de France 
...
3e Calais Round Britain Race 
1e Transmanche 
....
2006 
2e Route du Rhum - La Banque Postale en Classe 40 
...
2e Course des Falaises 
....
2e National Pogo 40 
....
2005
2e Championnat de France de Course au Large en Solitaire 
2e Route du Ponant 
....
2e Generali Solo 
3e Trophée BPE

2004
....
2e Generali Solo 
....

2003
2e Trophée BPE avec B. Pacé 
2e Route du Ponant 
.....
1e Generali Méditerranée 
1e Tour de Bretagne avec B. Pacé

2002 
1e Route du Ponant 
....

2001 
2e Route du Ponant 
1e Tour de Bretagne avec C. Caudrelier
....
1e Trophée BPE avec C. Caudrelier

2000
1e Champion de France de Course au Large en Solitaire
1e Porquerolles Figaro 
3e Solitaire du Figaro 
1e Double à Brest avec Betrand Pacé 
2e Route du Ponant 
2e Transat AG2R avec B. de Broc

1999 
....
2e Solo CGMer/Port La Vie 
3e Solitaire du Figaro

1998
1e Solo Delmas 
.....
3e Solo Dunes de Flandre 
....
1997 
1e Solo Delmas 
..... 
3e Internationaux de France de Match Racing
...
1995 
Champion de France de Soling 
Coupe de l'América - Marc Pajot "France 2 France 3" *
....

Tabarly performance on 8 straight days resisting the pressure of one of the greatest sailors on the class is a Champions performance. I hope nothing wrong happens with the boat because I am sure that if it is the case we will have a new Transat winner. Tabarly has a god race record and some victories but this one will be its first Transat.

Site Officiel de la Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

*We have another great Tabarly*. Nice


----------



## opc11

*Re: Teak and cork.*

Cork? Interesting. Not sure how I feel about its looks. Definitely like it better with the darker contrasting material. I wonder if it's any cooler under your feet?

I think the only reason I like the teak (ish) look is that it breaks up the monotony of a solid colored deck. Good point regarding some areas painted grey (anti-slip?). I would think it would have the same pleasing look to my eye.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Teak and cork.*



opc11 said:


> Cork? I wonder if it's any cooler under your feet?
> 
> ...


Yes, cooler in the summer, warmer in winter and besides that soft to the touch.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## One

*Re: Teak and cork.*



PCP said:


> Yes, cooler in the summer, warmer in winter and besides that soft to the touch.


And kind to one's knees.


----------



## Sapwraia

*Kiwi's AC speed secret !*

every yacht should have one


----------



## PCP

*Re: Kiwi's AC speed secret !*



Sapwraia said:


> every yacht should have one
> 
> ETNZ: Our 'Secret Weapon' revealed - YouTube


Sure, but you come late, 1st of April is already a week behind us

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New CR 380DS*

I have posted already about this boat that among the ones that want a relatively fast, high quality 38ft DS, and have the money for it, it is a an interesting option. It is on the water

The interiors, as usually on CR, look very nicely done with a great living space. The hull is very modern, the boat is not heavy for a 38ft DS (7.700 kg) specially if we consider the boat has around 3000kg of ballast. It has a moderate beam (3.63m) with the beam brought aft. With a very good B/D ratio and a modern keel this boat will have a lot of power and with 78sqm of sail area will leave many cruising boats on its wake.

The boat is not ugly but I guess that the cabin could have a nicer design. As it is it does not really look traditional neither modern.


----------



## bjung

The cork deck is somewhat intriguing, but I doubt it has the impactresistence needed to keep the cork surface intact. It is an agglomerated cork product, sort of like particleboard, and the key is the glue used to hold the bits of cork together. Once the surface is compromised (by falling tools, winches, etc. ) particles will break out and compromise the rest of the deck. This type of technology has been used for a while in winecorks (mostly because it is cheaper and TCA control is better). But those adhesives harden over time, and are not very UV resistent and prone to discoloration. I am sure corkdeck has better UV properties than the adhesives used in agglomerated winecorks, but that remains to be seen. I haven't been able to find any pics of older decks and the effect of weathering, only newly installed. I wonder why?
But why bother, give me a fiberglass deck with good non -skid, it's cheaper and (almost) maintenance free.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

This look good!

:::BOLT37:::


----------



## One

DiasDePlaya said:


> This look good!
> 
> :::BOLT37:::


Yes, it does. However, I'm a bit surprised at these titbits from the text:



> Bolt 37 is a thoroughbred racing yacht


And then a bit later:



> Aimed squarely at the owner who while being excited by the TP's and 40' Racers on the market, chooses to apportion a much smaller budget to their racing and* be closer in speed to the production cruiser-racers which make up a typical local fleet.*


Are they saying that it's not a "thoroughbred" after all, but merely an extremely spartan "cruiser"/racer?


----------



## hannah2

*Re: Kiwi's AC speed secret !*



Sapwraia said:


> every yacht should have one
> 
> ETNZ: Our 'Secret Weapon' revealed - YouTube


Boy is that propaganda! The last time we sailed to NZ, 2008 coffee was bad, really bad and that was everywhere. But I will pray to the great Volcano's of the land that things have changed. We are bringing three different coffee presses with us and hope we can find coffee being sold that does not come in a can.

Cheers


----------



## hannah2

*Re: New CR 380DS*



PCP said:


> I have posted already about this boat that among the ones that want a relatively fast, high quality 38ft DS, and have the money for it, it is a an interesting option. It is on the water
> 
> The interiors, as usually on CR, look very nicely done with a great living space. The hull is very modern, the boat is not heavy for a 38ft DS (7.700 kg) specially if we consider the boat has around 3000kg of ballast. It has a moderate beam (3.63m) with the beam brought aft. With a very good B/D ratio and a modern keel this boat will have a lot of power and with 78sqm of sail area will leave many cruising boats on its wake.
> 
> The boat is not ugly but I guess that the cabin could have a nicer design. As it is it does not really look traditional neither modern.


What are all of you thinking about how far forward the galley is on this boat?
Starting to get into the forward half of the boat and motion starts to go up. On our last boat, Mason 44 the head was in that location and I had a hard time holding on while taking a pee. You know one hand for the boat one for yourself. I thinking that all that NZ coffee on passage might end up on my bare feet when brewing some up while on passage. Nice looking galley though but a bit short on counter space when you are using the sink too.

Cheers.


----------



## robelz

Bootsbau: 90 Fuß Scow von Reichel/Pugh für das Transpac Race | SegelReporter

This one will be fast downwind... What do you think, Paulo?


----------



## opc11

"almost maintenance free" BINGO!


----------



## PCP

*Re: New CR 380DS*



hannah2 said:


> What are all of you thinking about how far forward the galley is on this boat?
> Starting to get into the forward half of the boat and motion starts to go up. On our last boat, Mason 44 the head was in that location and I had a hard time holding on while taking a pee. You know one hand for the boat one for yourself. I thinking that all that NZ coffee on passage might end up on my bare feet when brewing some up while on passage. Nice looking galley though but a bit short on counter space when you are using the sink too.
> 
> Cheers.


Hi Steve! 
You cannot think in boast for any other use than the one you favor. Most people in the Baltic or Med and certainly in many other parts don't cook with the boat slamming in waves. They just have a nice relatively short sailing till a nice spot then they swim and have a meal. Or if it is a longer journey they prepare the meal the night before at anchor.

Of course you are right, the best place for the galley is the center of the boat....if one cooks frequently with the boat on the move and that just don't happen for 95% of the cases at least for the vast majority. It has a big importance on a voyage boat not in one meant primarily for coastal cruising.

Besides that negative point the space is a nice one, allowing good support, a big cooler, a reasonable amount of space and big storage for a 38ft (look at the other side, you can see it on the photo from the saloon).

As you can see they offer another version with a linear galley, probably bigger but not so nice in my opinion.

Ask your wife what is the one that she likes more. I trust more in her opinion about that. That's my wife that has a say on that part of the boat and sometimes what I think is better is not what she considers better.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Downwind (big) racer:*



robelz said:


> Bootsbau: 90 Fuß Scow von Reichel/Pugh für das Transpac Race | SegelReporter
> 
> This one will be fast downwind... What do you think, Paulo?


What can I say? it is evident and already proved that this shape of hull can generate more power and be faster downwind so it will be a very suceseful sailboat on a 95% downwind race, if well designed, and I have no doubts that Reichel / Pugh will not miss it. So we have a winner.

Well, I guess that I am more an upwind man, so I don't have to like it





































Curiously the boat is relatively narrow, will have a very small wet surface and a very good performance in light winds. I wonder if a hull shape like the one of the last 100ft from Finot, more beamier, will not be faster with stronger winds. This is not a race boat but I can imagine a race boat along those lines for racing downwind on the trade winds.. It would be hugely powerful and even if not particularly fast upwind or with light winds, on the the trade winds should be quite a rocket. Curiously, even if much more beamier I like more the hull shape, specially the bow


----------



## PCP

*Solo circumnavigation*

Another solo circumnavigation in a small sailboat successively completed in an inexpensively used 40class racer. It is the first Chinese to complete the journey and he has done that on the fast lane: 137days 20 hours, about the time that American old guy want to achieve in a much bigger and hugely more expensive sailboat.











48 years old Guo Chuan is a very curious guy. First stange thing about him is that he only set foot on a sailboat at the age of 33. The second thing is that the guy was a space engineer with a master's degree in aircraft control at Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics, and an MBA at Peking University and used to work at commercial satellite launch projects in China. Third and probably more odd thing is that, starting at 33, letting go his lucrative profession, he managed to be the first professional sailor in China. That is not only odd but admirably: A passionate guy for sure.

Of course for doing that he started as an amateur as many that want to become professional ocean racing sailors. He had done in 2006 the Clipper Round the World, more seriously and already as a professional he had made the VOLVO Ocean Race in 2008-2009. More recently (2011) the first Chinese to participate in the Mini Transat and successfully finish it.

Curiously I guess that the fact that China is interested in sailing, particularly offshore sailing and the fact they lack good offshore sailors helped him to become a professional. In France there are hundreds of talented offshore sailors trying to become professionals and that makes things harder.

Anyway, congratulations to him that set a new record for solo circumnavigation on a 40ft sailboat.

I wonder how much time it will take for having a circumnavigation non stop race in 40 class racers? I guess they could make that as an initiation class on the Vendee Globe. Doing that on a 60ft Open class boat is not an adventure anymore but just a great race. They could open the more adventurous side again opening that to 40ft racing boats. can you Imagine what would be a Vendee Globe with 20 Open 60 plus 30 40class racers? The density of the interest and day to day news would increase dramatically.


----------



## PCP

*Bolt37*



One said:


> Yes, it does. However, I'm a bit surprised at these titbits from the text:
> 
> Bolt 37 is a thoroughbred racing yacht
> ..
> Aimed squarely at the owner who while being excited by the TP's and 40' Racers on the market, chooses to apportion a much smaller budget to their racing and be closer in speed to the production cruiser-racers which make up a typical local fleet.
> 
> ...
> Are they saying that it's not a "thoroughbred" after all, but merely an extremely spartan "cruiser"/racer?


That is a Ker design and it will be fast as all Ker designs. It is a racer, not a cruiser racer, but contrary for instance to a Ker 40 or a Farr 400, it is designed to be "cheap" and easily exploited and yet very competitive under IRC or ORCI handicap rules, capable of beating in compensated time faster all carbon racers (I think that is stupid, but that is the essence of handicap rating )

This explains it:

*Purpose built for handicap racing under IRC and ORCi,* the Bolt 37' will be exciting to sail, and very fast for its size, but at the same time the parameters have been selected with a careful eye on the rating rules. Extensive CFD based optimisation techniques have led to lower hydrodynamic resistance but a particular effort has also been made to ensure the yacht is forgiving to sail, making it easier for the crew to extract its full performance potential.

This one, contrary to some production cruiser racers is not a carbon boat:

Hull, Deck, Bulkheads and stiffners made from multi and unidirectionnal glass, vinylester resine and PVC foam over female tooling. All laminations are done with vacuum assisted infusion technique for perfect resine/fiber ratio and low air void.

and it will be made in Turkey to keep the price down: 160 000 euros for a very fast racer and a potential winner in handicap at high level is not much. A 37ft production cruiser equipped to win at top level in ORCI or IRS will cost more and will be a lot slower in real time.

anyway Ker can say what he wants but this baby with this hull:



















With a typically high performance Ker stern, 4200 kg of weight, a bulb at 2.8m, a B/D of 50% with almost all the ballast on the bulb and a moderated beam (3.48m) is going to kick ass and will be a very fast boat, downwind and upwind. He says the boat will be easy but that transom requires a very good crew to go at the limit downwind. But that's the point isn't it? After all this is a race boat and race boats are for expert sailors or for learning how to be an expert one

Regards

Paulo


----------



## One

Excellent, thanks for that, PCP 

I like the look of it, even if it _is _a rendering.

Edit: Oh, and I agree with the bit about handicap racing. Never quite got the point.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

One said:


> I like the look of it, even if it _is _a rendering.


The moulds are ready!

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.492114764152667.113519.344321215598690&type=1

From Twitter: Materials arrived, first hull will be infused soon...

IRC rating will be around 1.155TCC
We will apply for a new rating with latest dimensions soon


----------



## opc11

Van de Stadt Design

Not sure if this has been posted, but they look like interesting blue water cruisers. They can build aluminum hulls and retracting keels across a broad range of sizes.

Van de Stadt Design - Image 47

They also have what they call a "SwingRig" in which the mast rotates. Can't imagine that makes for a water tight deck. But they claim as a result, their main sails can keep up with rigs using spinnakers.


----------



## PCP

opc11 said:


> Van de Stadt Design
> 
> Not sure if this has been posted, but they look like interesting blue water cruisers. They can build aluminum hulls and retracting keels across a broad range of sizes.
> 
> Van de Stadt Design - Image 47
> 
> They also have what they call a "SwingRig" in which the mast rotates. Can't imagine that makes for a water tight deck. But they claim as a result, their main sails can keep up with rigs using spinnakers.


To tell you the truth I am not a big fan of Stadt design. I mean I was, regarding Van de stadt and his designs and his time (till 1978) but the days where his boats won the Fastnet race (1952) are long gone. He was a daring designer and ahead of his time. I don't think that can be said about Stadt design today.

I don't like particularly the design you mention (sorry about that):

http://stadtdesign.com/designs/custom_yachts/image_47/3



















I like more their work on bigger yachts, the ones they call Stadships:




























I like particularly this one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## opc11

no need to apologize, paulo! ....it's not my boat! ;-)


----------



## One

DiasDePlaya said:


> The moulds are ready!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.492114764152667.113519.344321215598690&type=1
> 
> From Twitter: Materials arrived, first hull will be infused soon...
> 
> IRC rating will be around 1.155TCC
> We will apply for a new rating with latest dimensions soon


He, he, okay. I'm looking forward to see the real thing.


----------



## Sapwraia

*Pilot (Dog) House / Deck Saloons etc - Vilm 115*

The interesting thing about the CR 380DS is how difficult it is to get the aesthetics right on a hull of that size, even if the interior spaces work out ok.

I recall comments by Chuck Paine when he was doing his fast cruiser designs, saying the trick with raised-seating deck saloons is getting the visual bulk into the back half of the hull and integrating well with the cockpit/coaming profile - very hard to do under 48 ft he said - probably why Southerly put so much work into the design of curved deck mouldings for their smaller yachts.

This new design Vilm 115 caught my eye - deigned by Judel/Vrolijk - never heard of the yard and don't think this has been built yet, but they have a lot of models listed (no website in english). I've always liked JV's designs and they've done a reasonable job with a dog-house on a yacht of this size - a nice design for gentle weekend cruising when you're 70+ 

I like the big and well protected cockpit (sun and wind) - esp if you're going to have a soft dodger up full-time; also a huge galley and heads (like the HR372) but the compromise is a saloon pushed well forward with mast post through middle of the table (not ideal and a throw back to the IOR pin-tails when tiny mains and huge genoas meant rigs were set well aft). Fwd cabin also tight; aft cabin looks large but must have quite a bit of cockpit moulding intruding into that space.

Performance looks like it will be ok from the stats and hull drawings

LOA 11.09 m
LWL 9.76m
Beam 3.54 m
Draft 1.60 m
Displ 7,200 kg
Ballast 2,550 kg
Sail area 71 m²

A bit light on ballast though @ 35% (vs XC 38 @ 43% and HR372 @ 39%) which coupled with shoal draft and dog house windage won't make this an upwind performer

They also have plans for same hull without dog-house (I see these designs being called pilot houses in Europe, but agree with U.S. terminology here - if you can't steer from it then its only shelter so a dog-house !)

Presumably a drop-down transom platform but not shown. Would be a bit nervous of a rudder that looks like it's at full keel draft ! I happily go to shallow waters but only if a spade rudder is at least a foot shorter than the keel !

Having gone to the trouble of plans from JV it's a shame its not being built by a better known yard - saw mention of EUR200k in the water. Moody would probably do ok producing the 2 versions of this yacht.

cheers


----------



## PCP

*Vilm Yachts*



Sapwraia said:


> ...
> Having gone to the trouble of plans from JV it's a shame its not being built by a better known yard - saw mention of EUR200k in the water. Moody would probably do ok producing the 2 versions of this yacht.
> 
> ...


Nice post. I agree with what you say except the above. I would rather put my trust om Vilm, that is an old familiar high quality company, than in Moody that has been bought by Hanse, that has a good quality but an industrial set up without the same quality for detail. Vilm shipyard has its origins on the XIX century.

Vilm is an old brand and I guess it is struggling for surviving. I have saw some of their boats and talk to the builder and I can only say good things. The problem is that this was a RDA company. When Germany unified itself the prices of RDA products raised sharply and the Vilm that was a good quality nice priced boat saw itself competing in price with the North European boats, that have a similar quality.

About one year ago I had posted about those new Vilm:



PCP said:


> Vilm goes modern, but not much: The German brand new models, the 115 and the 37 have not skeg rudders anymore and have a ballasted fin keel. Both boats share the same hull.
> 
> The boats look conservative but modern thanks to the Drawings of judel and vrolijk. Vilm are known to be well built and strong and I believe this two new models will open the Brand to a more vast number of sailors, provided they have the money for it because the Vilm are not cheap


The last well known boats with a good design but one that comes back from the last decades of the last century was the Vilm 101 and Vilm 117. The boats were well appreciated and the 116 (that is basically the 117) won 2002 contest for Best Production Cruiser Over $200,000 on Cruising World magazine.

Best Production Cruiser Over $200,000: Vilm 116 | Cruising World

Vilm 116 Sailboat Review | Cruising World

The 116 had been for many years their main boat but I really liked the more recent 101, a small swallow water cruiser intended for coastal and offshore work:














































From then the company has made an erratic route with several boats made in very small number:

A 40ft, made in two versions, decksaloon and cruiser:










Yacht Charter Vilm 41 DS (2Cab) - Sailing Yacht in Rügen / Lauterbach - Germany

a nice Vilm 34:










http://www.agora-yachtcharter.com/triplast/yacht-charter-vilm-34

But the problem seems that they cannot find their own way and a market for their boats. I guess that they should concentrate on the type of boat you posted and try to lower down production costs maintaining the quality. Making a lot of different boats in a small company does not help doing that.

I hope they find their way and manage to survive. They have a nice history behind, a tradition of quality and some great boats produced.

http://inter-yacht.com/Vilm/VilmRendezvous/

the new design is a nice one. I agree with you regarding the B/D ratio. I would maintain the ballast and would increase the draft to 2,00m. That would not give it a lot more stability as would solve the problem with the rudder at almost the same level as the keel. But this is a custom boat company and I am quite they would have no trouble in doing that.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

*Re: Pilot (Dog) House / Deck Saloons etc - Vilm 115*



Sapwraia said:


> This new design Vilm 115 caught my eye - deigned by Judel/Vrolijk - never heard of the yard and don't think this has been built yet, but they have a lot of models listed (no website in english). I've always liked JV's designs and they've done a reasonable job with a dog-house on a yacht of this size - a nice design for gentle weekend cruising when you're 70+
> 
> I like the big and well protected cockpit (sun and wind) - esp if you're going to have a soft dodger up full-time; also a huge galley and heads (like the HR372) but the compromise is a saloon pushed well forward with mast post through middle of the table (not ideal and a throw back to the IOR pin-tails when tiny mains and huge genoas meant rigs were set well aft). Fwd cabin also tight; aft cabin looks large but must have quite a bit of cockpit moulding intruding into that space.
> 
> Performance looks like it will be ok from the stats and hull drawings
> 
> LOA 11.09 m
> LWL 9.76m
> Beam 3.54 m
> Draft 1.60 m
> Displ 7,200 kg
> Ballast 2,550 kg
> Sail area 71 m²
> 
> A bit light on ballast though @ 35% (vs XC 38 @ 43% and HR372 @ 39%) which coupled with shoal draft and dog house windage won't make this an upwind performer
> 
> They also have plans for same hull without dog-house (I see these designs being called pilot houses in Europe, but agree with U.S. terminology here - if you can't steer from it then its only shelter so a dog-house !)
> 
> Presumably a drop-down transom platform but not shown. Would be a bit nervous of a rudder that looks like it's at full keel draft ! I happily go to shallow waters but only if a spade rudder is at least a foot shorter than the keel !
> 
> Having gone to the trouble of plans from JV it's a shame its not being built by a better known yard - saw mention of EUR200k in the water. Moody would probably do ok producing the 2 versions of this yacht.
> 
> cheers


Bootsbau Ruegen has been in business since 1948, and their first Vilm was built in 1965. The 116 won Cruising World Boat of the year in 2002 in the category " best performance Cruiser over $200k". They beat out a Moody 38, Jeanneau SO 43 and Moorings (Dufour) 525. And they are still in business today building quality boats. It is propably a good thing, that Moody is not building it, I believe quality would suffer with Hanse oversight.
I agree, they succeeded building a 10 m yacht with pilot/doghouse that is still pleasant to the eyes, not an easy feat. I can only think of Sirius Yachts as another pretty example in the 10m range. Sadly, they haven't introduced a new/ larger model in a while.


----------



## PCP

*Bridge to Bridge race.*

Never heard about this one but it seems just such a coll idea, kind off: if you think you sail fast just appear and we will see

I guess that t I missed it because I was on my cruising time

First to arrive were seven kite surfers then one wind surfer. The Hydroptere was there but started before time and did not finish? and the America's cup 45 where to show up but stayed at home. Shame , it would be nice to see what was their comparative performance.

This seems to be such a great idea for all that love speed sailing, no matter the boat or means that it is hard to understand why there is not more types of boats racing, just for the fun of it. I hope this race grows fast in number of participants, types of boats and media attention. It has all the ingredients to become a classic sail speed race...if only the Americans liked more sailing, I mean the general public. But I guess that a good movie and TV coverage of a race like this can contribute to that: Speed is always spectacular.

Ronstan Bridge to Bridge Race at St. Francis Yacht Club - Yachts and Yachting Online


----------



## APP Mode

I have an interesting question about sailing yachts, the reference MK II, what does it mean? 

The swedish brands : Regine has Regina 43MK II, Halberg Rassy has 43 MK II. 

Is there any special meaning for it?


----------



## bobperry

Moide:
It most probably means that the hull has not been changed but there have been changes made to the deck and or the interior layout. Sometimes it can indicate minor changes to the original hull tooling like the addition of a swim step aft. There is no standard definition for what "MkII " means.


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## PCP

Hi Bob! You are very welcomed here. I agree. Yes, around these parts that it is also what it means, a second version of a previous model and as you say normally the hull remains even if the keel, ruder and sometimes the transom are modified.

Today most brands prefer not to use that denomination anymore and just pretend that a MKII is a completely new boat. That's better for marketing: Most will prefer to have a completely new boat than a second version of a previous model even if sometimes the hull is still quite modern and up to date in what regards performance.

sometimes with the same hull some brands manage to produce quite different looking boats, in the interior and on the outside look. That is the case for instance regarding the Salona 38 that could be called 37 MKII instead.

I talked with them when they were designing the 38 to know if they were using the same hull or not and after what seemed to me an hesitation they opted for the same hull and asked Ker to design a new keel and ruder. The reason was that the 37 was still winning races at top level (and is still a very competitive boat) so they decided to modernize the look of the boat, give it a better interior, work on the appendices rather than having a new design that could perform not so well.

But as most that buy their boats are not racers and don't know that the 37 is still a very fast boat, if they called it 37MK II, they would not seel it so well, so....the "new" Salona 38 appeared on the market


----------



## PCP

*Jean-Pierre Dick new boat.*

Remember this guy and this boat:










the guy that on the Vendee Globe sailed his Open 60, after having lost the keel, from offshore Brazil till France and even so made it in 4th place?

Well, it seems he liked to sail without a keel. This is his new baby:





































The Program:

Grand Prix Guyader: from 3 to 6 May 2013/ Crew-manned race in Douarnenez

Armen Race: from 9 to 12 May 2013/360 mile offshore race starting at La Trinité-sur-Mer

Route des Princes: from 9 to 30 June 2013/ Crew-manned race round Europe/5 legs: Valence - Lisbon - Dublin - Plymouth - Morlaix

Transat Jacques Vabre: from 3 November 2013/Doublehanded transatlantic race between Le Havre and Itajai (Brazil)

He said:
*
"When I see this new boat, I feel great pride," says Dick. "This feeling reminds me of when my first Virbac-Paprec was launched in 2003. I love these transitions, these moments when you start out on a new adventure. Multihull sailing with a crew demands other skills. It is going to be a challenge and I will have to learn fast.

"The next days will be used to discover Virbac-Paprec 70. We are going to slowly raise the pressure by training regularly before the first race: the Grand Prix Guyader in Douarnenez. I am surrounded by very skilled people. I like them all. We are going to learn to know each other at sea, and to be strong together. It is my wish that this project be of high human value!"*


----------



## PCP

*18ft skiff sailing*

Talking about speed sailing one of the boats that comes to mind is 18ft Skiff Well not that skiff is exactly a type of boat and the origins of the name are really curious (from Wikipedia):

*""skiff" comes from the Middle English skif, which derives from the Old French esquif, which in turn derives from the Old Italian schifo, which is itself of Germanic origin (German Schiff). "Ship" comes from the Old English "scip", which has the same Germanic predecessor"*.

Eh! a popular name that circulated in many languages of old Europe and after all has the same origin as Ship.

The word exists in Portuguese almost in its original Latin form: Esquife. It means two things, on its original meaning, the small boat old sailing ships carried as a "dinghy" that also served to pull the ship when there was no wind and as a word for coffin, maybe because the shape is similar or maybe because on some old European cultures sailors and warriors were "buried" in boats.

Anyway the word today means also fast sailing boats and not only today:






Today is also a spectacular class race. Some recent movies that show that, I mean spectacle :


----------



## Sapwraia

*Skiffs*

Thanks for that skiff action  brings back fond memories of wild rides on breezy Saturday afternoons in Aussie 14 footers as they were called then - actually 14 foot skiffs (late 80's) and a real development class compared to the northern hemisphere 14's which were playing around with hull shapes, but thats about it.

Back then the Aussie 14's were twin trapeze, wide wings, retractable pole and 300 sq.ft asym kites - and staying upright put you in with a good chance of a podium finish ! Hulls were "professionally home built" and were transitioning from cedar core to foam and we all had fun experimenting in the garage with different lay-ups for test panels of E & S glass cloths, WEST & various foams - by todays standards very little reliable technical support.

By the mid 90's the 14's had converged globally and gone with the Aussie fast-is-fun version - really a precursor to the 49er generation.

Just writing this makes me want to go back & do it all over again 

a current version below - doesn't look that different but probably 30% lighter now :


----------



## One

I know it's probably been posted before, and it's not quite new, but this one would be a blast to cruise long-term in:






It's the Paradox 60 (actually 63 feet).












> "Peter, who likes talk about his boat and not himself, has been trying to build a cruising multihull for over a decade," Lewis explained. "Paradox was built from ORMA 60 parts, with the basis being the last Fuji 60, which was designed by Nigel Irens. But since Paradox is a cruising boat, her mast is just 85 feet instead of 100 feet, and she's 48 feet wide rather than 60 feet wide. But she only displaces eight tons. Compare that with the 18 tons of the catamaran Phaedo, our Voiles competition, which is the lightest and fastest Gunboat 66 ever built."
> 
> What's Paradox like inside, we asked, assuming she was completely stripped out. "She's beautiful!," responded Lewis. "The captain's quarters are under the cockpit, there are bunks in the floats, she has a dining room table, a stove and refrigeration, hot water, a nav station - the whole works. I first saw Paradox after the conclusion of the 2011 Caribbean 600 that I did on Phaedo, but I didn't pay much attention to her. Then last October, while on my way to pick up my kids near Waukegan, Maine, I saw this gray trimaran sailing at warp speed - 20 knots - on port tack up the coast. It was Peter and his captain, Olivier Vigoureux, who were headed to Camden to visit the best restaurant in Maine. I gave chase, but was never able to catch them. Intrigued by the tri and her owner, I emailed Olivier, but never heard back from him. So I emailed Nigel Irens, and through him met Peter and ended up down here racing on a Caribbean sailing holiday."
> 
> Paradox did her second Caribbean 600 this spring, as well as the Heineken, BVI Spring Regatta and the Volies, so she's been one of the more active racing boats in the Caribbean. "We're now all headed to Crossroads for detox," laughed Lewis. "Actually, I'm headed back to Maine, where I hope to get my peas planted. "
> 
> We hope to have a report from Aschenbrenner on Paradox in the near future.


Text from here:

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


----------



## DiasDePlaya

In Spanish "esquife" means "botecito", very small boat, in a derogatory way.


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> In Spanish "esquife" means "botecito", very small boat, in a derogatory way.


Just for the fun of it I made a search on Google images with Esquife and I could find very few images but I found two meaningful, one that sustain what you say regarding the derogatory meaning in Spanish and the other regarding the old Portuguese meaning, as a tender of a sailboat. The boats were long for allowing many rowers to give it the ability to move the mother ship without wind.



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

The term "skiff" comes from the name of the inventor, Archilbald W. Skiff.


----------



## PCP

*Krysalid 42*



One said:


> .
> New Irens 60' Cruiser/Racer "Paradox" On Tour - YouTube
> ..


Yes we have talked here about Paradox (some movies in regattas) but never had saw the interior and I really wanted to have a look at it: Well, it looks like my son's room

Some years ago a French shipyard had tried to produce a cruising trimaran that I found very interesting, a 42ft that looked like a smaller Multi 50 and that had the advantage of pulling their arms up, allowing it to pay a normal place in a marina. When the first boat was in production I talked to them to see if the boat could fit in my budget...but no way. Trimarans are just too expensive for me. And It looks not only for me because after making 2 or three boats they went out of business.

I don't think that they had fitted any with the originally intended cruising interior. They were used as race boats.

About two years after I talked with them I saw the first boat in and took some pictures:



















The Shipyard was Auriga and the boat was called Krysalid 42. Some movies:






Krysalid 42' by Auriga Yacht from Loic Darras on Vimeo.

On this one we can see the boat winning over a Carbon Corsair 37.





P6190049 _por vgludot_

For somebody with the money for it, there is one for sale for about half the price it costed. It has almost no interior but that can be arranged and probably the price will also be lowered.

Second hand TRIMARAN 42 pieds AURIGA YACHT - Boat for sale - Bretagne - Morbihan - Vannes

Regards

Paulo


----------



## One

Excellent, PCP.

I've attached a picture of the interior of the Paradox when it's not messy.

Also, if you scroll to about the five minute mark in the video in this link (it's not YT, so can't link direct) you can see some more of it:

Deux catas, un tri, trois programmes...


----------



## PCP

*Skiffs*



bobperry said:


> The term "skiff" comes from the name of the inventor, Archilbald W. Skiff.


Well, before he had invented it there where already plenty boats called skiff, unless he had invented it before the year 1000

Skiff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Skiffs were used as racing boats on the last century and the one before that. I guess you are not talking about these boats?
















Or maybe you are. What Skiff was created by Archilbald W. Skiff and when?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## One

I could be wrong, but I think the Archibald Skiff inventing it was a joke.


----------



## PCP

One said:


> ...
> Deux catas, un tri, trois programmes...


Yes that is an interesting video, a lot better that the previous one in what regards the interior. The interior could be a lot better without too much effort. The biggest problem is the lack of light and that would not be difficult to get without any prejudice to the boat performance.

I love the dinghy garage

Regards

Paulo


----------



## One

PCP said:


> Yes that is an interesting video, a lot better that the previous one in what regards the interior. The interior could be a lot better without too much effort. The biggest problem is the lack of light and that would not be difficult to get without any prejudice to the boat performance.


I agree. Somewhere he says that they have made the interior more cruising friendly or words to that effect. I'm thinking light too. Did you notice the round escape hatch in the topside? I love that.



> I love the dinghy garage


Hehe, me too 

Although if I had the money for something like that, I'd have a (carbon) open water rowing boat in one of the amas. Much more to my liking


----------



## bobperry

One:
Thanks. At least someone here has a sense of humor.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

bobperry said:


> The term "skiff" comes from the name of the inventor, Archilbald W. Skiff.


:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


----------



## PCP

*Radical sailing*

and for the ones that think that 18ft Skiff sailing is radical.....






....just some really radical sailing:


----------



## PCP

*The Mayan, a Alden 1942 59ft centerboarder schooner:*






Now you should be thinking what has this beautiful song has to do with it. Well, it was written about this boat by its owner and long time owner and certainly inspired by it. I am talking about David Crosby.






It is a shame he has to part with it but having had an old wooden boat I can imagine the maintenance costs 

Beautiful boat anyway with a great interior. I hope someone with good taste will take good care of her.


----------



## PCP

*Volvo Ocean race 2014/2015*

I am really happy to know that I will see the race again in Lisboa that is one of the cities that becomes habitual as a port of call in the race. Brazil is the only country that will receive it in two cities, Recife and Itajay and that makes the Portuguese the dominant language on the ports of call

Most cities are chosen by its Maritime tradition and convenient localization and there are other great cities as Port of call: Alicante, Abu Dhabi, Aukland, Rhode Island, Lorient, Gothenburgh and Sanya.

The race will start in Spain (Alicante) on Oct. 4, 2014 and will finish in Sweden (Gothenburg) on June 27, 2015.

The race will be bigger than the last one by about 6000Nm.

Brazil has becoming a very hot spot in what regards World's sport. Between 2014 and 2016 they will host three of the biggest world sport world's events:
The football (soccer) World Cup in 2014, the Volvo ocean race in 2015 and the Olympics in 2016. Way to go, and congratulations to all Brazilians around.


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## PCP

*Nacra 17*

I believe this boat will bring a lot to sail and particularly to women while sailors. It is not completely innovative since it is based on their smaller and bigger sisters (F16 and 18) but the curved foil gives it a character of his own and makes it particularly fast and difficult to sail. The ones that tried the boat talk about "flying" A great boat no doubt and racers are excited about it and that's a good sign

This boat was designed expressly by Morrelli & Melvin to meet the criteria that was demanded by ISAF for the new Olympic class: mixed multihull. the story as told by the designers:

*"Since no existing design or class fit the ISAF specs, we decided to create an all-new design that is about 17 feet long, called the NACRA 17. Compared to an F16 class catamaran, it is 250mm longer, 100mm wider, has a taller mast and more sail area, and curved daggerboards. The curve boards also give an added dimension to the sailing".*

The boat started to be made last year and the first images show a very fast, fun and demanding boat to sail. Besides that it is for a mixed crew so instead the boys instead of saying to the girls: "I am going to sail with my fiends" will start to say: "Won't you come and sail with me".

I expect this to be a very popular class and a spectacular one:


----------



## PCP

*Flying Phantom project:*

Talking about Flying, look at this baby:










and Franck Cammas trying it :






That's a modified F18. Not yet competitive but you never now. Some years ago they say that the Moth on foils was only a stunt and that would not be competitive, and look at them now.

I guess the problem here is that it is made to fly on the two foils. That's too much resistance. They have to fly on a single foil to diminish drag. An equilibrist act...but that's racing

Catamaran Racing, News & Design: Learning to Fly II: Flying Phantom Project

http://www.sail-innovation.com/


----------



## Sapwraia

*Allures 39.9 Interior*

Here are some pics just posted by Allures of the 39.9 interior (hull no.1) - this is a big call by the yard in going to an "apartment style" design. I looked at some pics of the previous Allures 40 and am left feeling that I prefer the earlier style. From a practical point of view I don't like all the chamfered edges to the woodwork - with typical usage will just attract wear & tear faster than rounded edges. The saloon seating doesn't look that inviting either; I don't want to pre-judge too much as this design is near top of our list - so will reserve judgement until a physical inspection later in the year.


----------



## PCP

*Seascape 27 versus Saphire 27*

If I was a Young guy these two boats were probably what I would have chose for racing and camping with the family.

Two very different boats in what regards design but both fit for fast racing and cruising. One very much French school the other very much Italian school. Both can pull their keels up (the Seascape swings it) having the advantages of deep keel boats and being able to join the river banks for camping, or have a nice pick nick. Both can be trailed.

I am not going to compare them directly. Someone had a genial idea: If you are interested just go to to the Lake Garda, have an wonderful week -end and sail test both boats. They have managed a pack with inexpensive hotel prices. that's what I would have done. Hell, I kind of feel tempted for that offer just for the fun of sailing those beauties. From 20 to 28 of this month, you have to book to be sure you have a place.

If you go there please post the report here

*Seascape 27:*





















*Saphire 27:*


























Saphire 27 - Slip and trail without a crane

Seascape

https://www.facebook.com/Seascap27

http://www.biehlmarin.com/mediapool/3/35906/data/Seascape_27/2x-stage2_ver6.pdf

http://www.saphireboats.com/system/files/71/2401fa01d8.pdf


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## Edward3

*Allures 39.9 Interior*
Thanks for the update Sapwraia.
The open architecture or apartment style does seem appealing in many ways. Similar to RM, JPK&#8230; with open areas and large windows for a panoramic view of the outside , lots of light into the interior and invites people in to a more attractive and stylish design. 
For a fast cruiser with live aboard possibilities on long voyages and the times when you are tied to a dock or mooring for extended periods of time, this could improve the lifestyle of young families and couples not familiar with the cold dark confined spaces covered with traditional classical teak down below. 
Just my thought since I'm used to modern architecture and building techniques and after spending days on the rail and sleeping in pipe berths, this is a sight of fresh air!


----------



## PCP

*Re: Allures 39.9 Interior*



Sapwraia said:


> Here are some pics just posted by Allures of the 39.9 interior (hull no.1) - this is a big call by the yard in going to an "apartment style" design. I looked at some pics of the previous Allures 40 and am left feeling that I prefer the earlier style. From a practical point of view I don't like all the chamfered edges to the woodwork - with typical usage will just attract wear & tear faster than rounded edges. The saloon seating doesn't look that inviting either; I don't want to pre-judge too much as this design is near top of our list - so will reserve judgement until a physical inspection later in the year.


I agree with you. One thing is modern looking other thing is quality design. the colors are wrong, the finish seems to have some problems specially on the saloon settees and that odd looking finish on the corners probably will be a cause for problems with age. Part of the problem as to do with the use of white and Black. Those are the most powerful "colors", You cannot use too many and they use too much white. Compare it with the use of the white on the 45:

Click visit 3D:

http://www.allures.fr/voilier.php?id=6

If you are interested in the boat let then know you are interested but don't like the interior and ask if the interior cannot be made on the same style of the 45. This is a prototype and they tried to innovate. I bet that the design of the interior looked great on the artists drawings. I have see it happen time over time, I mean people being mislead over a bad project with a great presentation. You have to be a professional to make the distinction between what is a nice drawing and a nice design.

I believe that they will be going to substitute or improve this design. It will happen sooner if they receive lots of complaints...and they are going to receive them, I am sure.

Regards

Paulo


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## hannah2

The 39 is a very nice boat for its size. Looking at the drawings do you think there is enough room to put a good strong dodger on it? The mainsail sheet and the two mainsail blocks are very close to the edge of the companionway hatch. I hope they could be moved bit more forward and still have a fair lead. The foil is like the ones on the Boreal, I wonder if there will be enough room under it for a wind vane. Ya I know the French do not believe in wind vanes only auto helms. But most going cruising will want both.

As an owner of a fairly new designed boat I'm always keeping my eye out for all the little things that may not make you happy when you go and pickup you new machine. Always keep an eye out and ask lots of questions to the builders and the designers.

The interior colors can always be changed.

Nice boat.


----------



## Sapwraia

Edward3 said:


> *Allures 39.9 Interior*
> Thanks for the update Sapwraia.
> The open architecture or apartment style does seem appealing in many ways. Similar to RM, JPK&#8230; with open areas and large windows for a panoramic view of the outside , lots of light into the interior and invites people in to a more attractive and stylish design.
> For a fast cruiser with live aboard possibilities on long voyages and the times when you are tied to a dock or mooring for extended periods of time, this could improve the lifestyle of young families and couples not familiar with the cold dark confined spaces covered with traditional classical teak down below.
> Just my thought since I'm used to modern architecture and building techniques and after spending days on the rail and sleeping in pipe berths, this is a sight of fresh air!


E3, An interesting perspective and shows just what a personal thing this is; I've lived all my life in modern & minimalist houses with parents since the 60's, apartments and now a new ultra-mod house for us; so looking for something a bit cosier & welcoming in a yacht - but still needs to be very well designed & highly functional 

What do you all think about the double vertical hull ports for in the saloon ? That styling feature works better on hulls over 50 foot IMHO, and would be a good test of the Allures semi-custom potential to request that port the same as the others i.e. one horizontal rectangle. Not quite as much deep blue panorama but enough and would accentuate the hull lines better ? Anyone up for some photoshop ? may have to wait till the weekend !

Paulo, I agree re early feedback to the yard and semi-custom potential - I like their progressive thinking but wonder if they're competing too hard with the "apartment interiors" of the mass manufacturers when most people who go for the Allures have probably already decided that the round bilge alum hull, swing keel & twin rudder are the critical requirements for which there is no real competition at this size (Ovni has chines)

These are all high quality problems of course 

cheers


----------



## Sapwraia

hannah2 said:


> The 39 is a very nice boat for its size. Looking at the drawings do you think there is enough room to put a good strong dodger on it? The mainsail sheet and the two mainsail blocks are very close to the edge of the companionway hatch. I hope they could be moved bit more forward and still have a fair lead. Nice boat.


h2 - I see what you mean re dodger - compromises start appearing in unexpected places as LOA decreases ! These pics are all we have re dodger / mainsheet fixings .......

For hot climate sailing i wonder if they've designed a bimini from dodger to arch ....... it means you have to steer from the rails for fwd visibilty but would be a nice covered cockpit (assuming the dodger frame isn't too flimsy


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## Sapwraia

*Allures 39.9 - change the midships hull-port*

ok - decided that the weekend is still 2 days away, so a late night shot of single malt and this is the rough alternative .......


----------



## Edward3

+1 
Nix the double vertical hull ports, never really felt comfortable with such large hull openings. 
Understand the reliability of these things has improved greatly but, always thinking what kind of kit needed for offshore repairs.


----------



## hannah2

Sapwraia said:


> h2 - I see what you mean re dodger - compromises start appearing in unexpected places as LOA decreases ! These pics are all we have re dodger / mainsheet fixings .......
> 
> For hot climate sailing i wonder if they've designed a bimini from dodger to arch ....... it means you have to steer from the rails for fwd visibilty but would be a nice covered cockpit (assuming the dodger frame isn't too flimsy


Looks like a dodger can be had. We are having problems having a bimini made for the Boreal. The company in France who has been making them for Boreal is not up to the standards we have in the Pacific NW of the USA. We did find a great company in Falmouth, England that does high quality work and we may have to go over there after sea trials to get one made. Because the places we are headed for with lots of malaria and dengue fever we need the zippered sunbrella/screening made for the cockpit area and that has become a real challenge. Does anyone know of a good canvas company in Portugal? We would rather go south than north.

If your thinking about the 39 have any of you thought about the wind vane situation and the foil. Has anyone seen one on the 39?

I like the idea about the single malt but here in Hood River, OR. USA it's getting warm and all most time for Fu Fu drinks and gin and tonics. and as I write it is now 5PM and time for one.

Cheers


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## opc11

*Re: Allures 39.9 Interior*



Sapwraia said:


> Here are some pics just posted by Allures of the 39.9 interior (hull no.1) - this is a big call by the yard in going to an "apartment style" design. I looked at some pics of the previous Allures 40 and am left feeling that I prefer the earlier style. From a practical point of view I don't like all the chamfered edges to the woodwork - with typical usage will just attract wear & tear faster than rounded edges. The saloon seating doesn't look that inviting either; I don't want to pre-judge too much as this design is near top of our list - so will reserve judgement until a physical inspection later in the year.


IKEA must be making a move into naval interior design. I was so excited about this boat. That interior is AWFUL LOOKING. What were they possibly thinking? I agree, Paulo. The older interiors are much nicer. I don't mind a modern looking interior. I just mind the decisions (colors, layout) that were made here.

...talk about taking the wind out of my sails....uhg


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## opc11

*Re: Allures 39.9 - change the midships hull-port*



Sapwraia said:


> ok - decided that the weekend is still 2 days away, so a late night shot of single malt and this is the rough alternative .......


anyone notice this picture doesn't show the vertical windows?


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## PCP

I believe you will have a much better outside view with the vertical ones, and if well made in an aluminum hull they will not represent any problem. of course you can decide you don't need a view and just don't have any

I guess that when you see the boat you will decide. That would not be a problematic to modify.


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## One

*Re: Allures 39.9 - change the midships hull-port*



opc11 said:


> anyone notice this picture doesn't show the vertical windows?


Er, yes. It's a photoshop Sapwraia made.


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## PCP

*Lock Crowther Regatta*

I never heard about this one, probably because it is raced on the other side of the world, but it looks like good fun to me:





















I don't understand that Australian thing of not allowing the multihulls to compete in some races with monohulls (Sydney-Hobart for instance) or on this one, Monohulls not competing with multihulls. For me an offshore sail race should have all classes together, even if with different classifications. That makes it a big party shared by all that love offshore racing even when it is a a serious sail event. That smells to me like conservatism and in a country that is not very conservative, it is quite amazing.

For me, putting aside very top all professional races, offshore races should be like these were even guys in small boats can compete with bigger ones, multihulls and monohulls alike, professionals, good amateurs and not so good. Why not, the sea is big enough to all. Well a Laser is a bit as an exaggeration as an offshore boat, but on these ones there are plenty of rescue boats mixed in the race.





















Fair play! The British were always good about it, at least regarding with others


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## PCP

*Transat Bretagne-Martinique (Figaro II)*

Just with some retard the movies from the First three arriving. It was the big great victory on a solo Transat for *Tabarly* that beat Morvan and Delahaye.


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## bobperry

I kind of like the vertical windows. They add an element of "electricity" to the look.


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## PCP

*Volvo Ocean Race 2014/2015*

And the VOR is back, they say the "Toughest Sailing Race in the World, but after the Vendee I have my doubts. anyway a great race and this time with a girl's team.

The presentation, the route and the Ports of call the new boat and the girls:



















































(could not find the videos for Alicante, Gotenburgh and Newport. If someone can please post them)


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## opc11

*Re: Allures 39.9 - change the midships hull-port*



One said:


> Er, yes. It's a photoshop Sapwraia made.


ahhhh, errrr. doh! not sure how I missed that


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## One

*Re: Allures 39.9 - change the midships hull-port*



opc11 said:


> ahhhh, errrr. doh! not sure how I missed that


Well, it's a long thread which moves fast at times


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## PCP

*Women on the VOR*

Nice video about the women on the Volvo. Nice to have them back and now not on an old boat but just in one just like the others. That's a first. I hope they can quick ass


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## PCP

*Look at the AC wings*

and see how different they are:



and look at the size (there is a tiny man on the left).

This is a drawing by François Chevalier, a French NA that choose nautical technical journalism as a main profession. I had already posted some of its analyses and it is just great to have somebody that can go deep inside top sail design and made them accessible to us. Cheers to him.


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## PCP

*La Grande Motte*

That means something to you? If you like cruising multihulls it should mean: That's the biggest world multihull boat show with 150 boats from all over the world. The place is near Montpellier, Nimes and Provence, a very nice place to visit in spring. The Expo started at 10 and will close next Sunday.





Salon du Multicoque 2013 La Grande Motte _por F3languedocroussillon_

Some of the boats that will be there:

http://www.multicoque-online.com/fr...nce/edition-mediterranee-2013/bateaux-a-flot/

http://www.multicoque-online.com/fr...ce/edition-mediterranee-2013/liste-exposants/


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## PCP

*Maltese Falcon versus Meteor*

Everybody know the Maltese Falcon, an innovative design by Gerard Dijkstra & Partners and Perini Navi, a 2006 design, a boat with 88m of length. Yes the boat is very modern, the sails are computer oriented and it is an interesting concept but I never liked the dam thing. There are something of pompous on that boat, the luxury is ostentatious, kind of an Hollywood set up. The boat is supposed to be fast very modern and needing a smaller crew:






Only a year later Gerard Dijkstra designed Meteor, a 52m Yacht, this one much more accordingly with his line of work, a modern classic: a classical boat with a modern hull and rig. I find this one much more beautiful than the Maltese Falcon even if I find the the interior (by John Munford design) too heavy and lacking imagination:






The Maltese Falcon is much bigger, it has a revolutionary rig does not have to look classical so surely it is a lot faster than the Maltese Falcon!!! right?






Wrong. So much for modernity in this case

Meteor is really a beautiful boat and Dijkstra is really a master designing modern classics:


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## One

That's a bit unfair. The Maltese Falcon has that rig, not because it is the most efficient, but because the then owner-to-be wanted a modern square rigger. I never liked that humongous pilothouse/salon and that antennae mast in the stem, but I like how he put his money into making something not seen anywhere. Computerised square rigger to make it manageable. I mean, it's eccentric enough that I like it for that reason alone.


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## PCP

*Maltese Falcon versus Meteor*



One said:


> That's a bit unfair. The Maltese Falcon has that rig, not because it is the most efficient, but because the then owner-to-be wanted a modern square rigger. I never liked that humongous pilothouse/salon and that antennae mast in the stem, but I like how he put his money into making something not seen anywhere. Computerised square rigger to make it manageable. I mean, it's eccentric enough that I like it for that reason alone.


Square rigs were used because they made boats faster and more efficient, specially on the trade winds. It does not seem that the Meteor can sail better with that rig than with a conventional rig. The rig, even if it works it is a kind of technical show off without resulting in a performance advantage. Maybe it works in what regards the need of less sailors ....

Regards

Paulo


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## One

*Re: Maltese Falcon versus Meteor*



PCP said:


> Square rigs were used because they made boats faster and more efficient, specially on the trade winds. It does not seem that the Meteor can sail better with that rig than with a conventional rig. The rig, even if it works it is a kind of technical show off without resulting in a performance advantage. Maybe it works in what regards the need of less sailors ....
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Are you attempting to argue that the benefits back then, when cotton were used for sailcloth, should somehow translate into good saildesign today? That because it was an advantage back then to have smaller squares of cloth, then that same thing would be beneficial today? Even if most on the Maltese Falcon is carbon fibre, it still a sorts of square rigger with the extra weight up on top, compared to the modern rig of Meteor, which has far less weight and hardware (carbon fibre and dyneema) up on top.

Why would you expect a square rigger, even made with modern materials to outpace everything out there, because "centuries ago, they made them for the trade winds"? (Yes, I'm paraphrasing a bit).

I say this, while I actually like that rig a lot. It's beautiful to me (the rig, that is), but I wouldn't expect it to be as good as a more modern rig, utilising the benefits of modern sail cloth.


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## PCP

*Re: Maltese Falcon versus Meteor*



One said:


> Are you attempting to argue that the benefits back then, when cotton were used for sailcloth, should somehow translate into good saildesign today? That because it was an advantage back then to have smaller squares of cloth, then that same thing would be beneficial today? Even if most on the Maltese Falcon is carbon fibre, it still a sorts of square rigger with the extra weight up on top, compared to the modern rig of Meteor, which has far less weight and hardware (carbon fibre and dyneema) up on top.
> 
> Why would you expect a square rigger, even made with modern materials to outpace everything out there, because "centuries ago, they made them for the trade winds"? (Yes, I'm paraphrasing a bit).
> 
> I say this, while I actually like that rig a lot. It's beautiful to me (the rig, that is), but I wouldn't expect it to be as good as a more modern rig, utilising the benefits of modern sail cloth.


No, you are missing the point. Before square rigs were a technological advantage, they made sailboats perform better, then with the advent of big downwind sails that advantage disappeared.

Today a square rig performs not as well as a modern rig, even a very modern one like the one on Falcon Maltese is no exception, so why use it? just because someone finds it beautiful? It don't make sense to me. It is like someone using a full keel because he finds full keels beautiful: Both things are anachronisms and have no place on a modern boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## One

Fair enough. But I still think it's great to see someone trying to update an old design and see how it does with modern materials and a modern implementation. It astounds me, though, that you're so against the modern square rigger, but you juxtapose it with the Meteor. If that is not anachronistic, I don't know else I'd call it - even if it _is _faster than the Maltese Falcon in the videos posted.

With that said, I'm seriously reconsidering buying a ("racing") trimaran instead of the boat I had settled on. The one you guys linked me to in that other thread was really nice, although not being able to buy it from new is a bummer. I simply think it would be even more fun, even though it will be a ***** to find a berth for.
_Edit: _
I found it. It was in this thread, and it was you who posted about it - I'm rather smitten with it, the Krysalid 42:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...41-interesting-sailboats-413.html#post1013748


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## PCP

*Dorvale amd Krysalid 42*



One said:


> ...
> 
> With that said, I'm seriously reconsidering buying a ("racing") trimaran instead of the boat I had settled on. The one you guys linked me to in that other thread was really nice, although not being able to buy it from new is a bummer. I simply think it would be even more fun, even though it will be a ***** to find a berth for.
> _Edit: _
> I found it. It was in this thread, and it was you who posted about it - I'm rather smitten with it, the Krysalid 42:
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...41-interesting-sailboats-413.html#post1013748







I don't know if you have an idea of the costs of one of those new. That is a carbon boat. Some years back the announced price was 415 000 euros for the cruising version that I believe they never made. Probably the racing version, the one that is for sell, was a bit less expensive but not much.

Krysalid'42 trimaran sails for a racing sum of $600,000

If you are not a very rich guy it would make more sense to talk with the NA, buy that used almost new boat for the better price and put him in charge of transforming that on the cruising version. Of course if you want a mew one I am sure the molds are somewhere and the NA can certainly find someone reliable to build it ( in France lots of shipyards specialized in building racing boats).

The NA is Dorvale.

DORVAL Architecture Navale Krysalid 42

We talked here also about another of his designs, an interesting boat and concept, the Loft 40:

LoftBoats





PCP said:


> Another of those cruisers that pick the class 40 hull is the Loft 40 and this one is for me a lot more interesting than the Azuree. Daring and very innovating. Not a boat for everybody, but to a happy couple that likes to receive friends.
> 
> The aim of this boat is not maximum performance, but just having a fast cruiser boat that maximizes space concept, in the interior and on the outside. It is called loft because he uses space as continuum. The maneuverer space of the boat is all on the back. There is a covered space that interconnects with the interior, more precisely with the galley and a cabin that opens to the saloon.
> 
> This is a two person boat. A boat that can host a party or receive a considerable number of guests. It is a fun boat that with 6.5T and 90m2 of sail and a gennaker with 80m2 should be a pleasant and fast boat to sail. A boat to enjoy life.
> 
> Comments please!
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Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Sail news:*


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## One

Thanks,

Yes, it's a bit dearer from new than the keel boat I talked about in the other thread. I'm not "rich", but I do have a bit of money at present. 

The keelboat we discussed in the other thread is made from foam-core epoxy (no vinylester or polyester), and they are one-offs. Compared to a new Krysalis 42 in racing trim, the Krysalis is €80-100K dearer. But with the carbon spars etc. the designer and I were discussing, we're talking a price increase of 15-25 percent, which would make the difference between the fin-keeler and the Krysalis much less. However, seeing that the Krysalis is not in production anymore, and seeing the prices of the one(s) for sale, it would actually save me quite a lot of money to buy the used one, and outfit it myself. I like spartan, though, so it wouldn't take much, nor would it add a lot of weight to the multihull. And, to boot, it would still be far more luxurious than "cockpit camping" on the old-school fin keeler.


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## PCP

One said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Yes, it's a bit dearer from new than the keel boat I talked about in the other thread. I'm not "rich", but I do have a bit of money at present.
> 
> The keelboat we discussed in the other thread is made from foam-core epoxy (no vinylester or polyester), and they are one-offs. Compared to a new Krysalis 42 in racing trim, the Krysalis is €80-100K dearer. But with the carbon spars etc. the designer and I were discussing, we're talking a price increase of 15-25 percent, which would make the difference between the fin-keeler and the Krysalis much less. However, seeing that the Krysalis is not in production anymore, and seeing the prices of the one(s) for sale, it would actually save me quite a lot of money to buy the used one, and outfit it myself. I like spartan, though, so it wouldn't take much, nor would it add a lot of weight to the multihull. And, to boot, it would still be far more luxurious than "cockpit camping" on the old-school fin keeler.


Not to mention boat value. That trimaran completely revised and with a new interior would worth a lot more than a racing boat so you in fact would lose a lot less money when and if you sell the sailboat in the future.

Regards

Paulo


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## One

PCP said:


> Not to mention boat value. That trimaran completely revised and with a new interior would worth a lot more than a racing boat so you in fact would lose a lot less money when and if you sell the sailboat in the future.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hadn't thought of resale value at all. Every boat (or anything else) I buy is always "the one and final one". I'm an idiot when it comes to thinking of resale values of anything. It's weird, because at the same time I'm as far from a hoarder as you can get.


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## DiasDePlaya

Do you want a multihull? Look at this novelty!

california love | Sailing Anarchy


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## PCP

*Clarc33*

I don't know why I never talked about this one: It is so pretty ...and fast too. Speed with style on a boat that has a variable draft with a bulbed lifting keel: from 1.25m to 1.95m .

Lots of the ballast for the weight, type of keel and draft: 40% of B/D ratio on a very light boat (2.850kg) allows a relativelly narrow hull (2.54m) with a more than decent sail area (51/46 sqm). The light weight means an high tech construction with Vacuum-Infusion, Epoxy resins, bidirectional E-Glass use of carbonfibre fibre and light wooden elements.

a wolf in disguise

If something can be said against is that the boat has not a proper head, just a chemical one and the galley is really minimal. This makes it a weekend cruiser at most... but a boat that will let many astonished at club race and that certainly will put a big smile on the face of the one at the tiller. However I think the boat deserved a better interior one as well done and as beautiful as the rest of the boat: That would be perfection.


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## Sapwraia

*Re: Clarc33*



PCP said:


> I don't know why I never talked about this one: It is so pretty ...and fast too. Speed with style on a boat that has a variable draft with a bulbed lifting keel: from 1.25m to 1.95m .
> 
> Lots of the ballast for the weight, type of keel and draft: 40% of B/D ratio on a very light boat (2.850kg) allows a relativelly narrow hull (2.54m) with a more than decent sail area (51/46 sqm). The light weight means an high tech construction with Vacuum-Infusion, Epoxy resins, bidirectional E-Glass use of carbonfibre fibre and light wooden elements.
> 
> a wolf in disguise
> 
> If something can be said against is that the boat has not a proper head, just a chemical one and the galley is really minimal. This makes it a weekend cruiser at most... but a boat that will let many astonished at club race and that certainly will put a big smile on the face of the one at the tiller. However I think the boat deserved a better interior one as well done and as beautiful as the rest of the boat: That would be perfection.


Nice - Looks more complete than some other recent retro daysailer/weekenders of similar size. I like the way the rudder being set well aft means they've kept the tiller substantially out of the cockpit. I also like the tapered coach roof profile, but those oval ports don't work for me being same size - esp the fwd one - to pull this off to best effect they should have the ports reducing in size with the taper. I presume they're using stock components, but visible details like that make all the difference in this segment which is getting quite competitive; and target buyers will be very particular about spec & detailing.


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## Sapwraia

*re : Clarc33*

This is the kind of thing I mean by the coachroof ports - courtesy of Olin Stephens in 1966; shame about the dinghy  The tapering configuration of the front 3 ports would work well on the Clarc. Still, this S&S was a custom build and these details add cost; Clarc is hopefully doing their best to deliver quality at sensible cost.


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## PCP

*Brenta 30*

Regarding beauty look at this old movie and look how beautiful and adapted to the conditions those two Brenta 30 are. Compared to them, on that setting, even what we normally would have looked as nice cruising boats looks awkward, fat and kind of ugly


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## PCP

*Sensei by Felci*

and since we are talking about daysailers week-end cruisers and beauty just put this movie running on full screen.

Belive it or not, this one even has a real head

It should give a lot of pleasure to a NA to be free to design a boat like this


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## One

DiasDePlaya said:


> Do you want a multihull? Look at this novelty!
> 
> california love | Sailing Anarchy


I'm not really in love with catamarans. I like trimarans. I think it has to do with it being a "proper" (singular) boat in the middle, whereas a catamaran is like two boats tied together. Not very rational thinking, but I do prefer trimarans over catamarans.


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## PCP

One said:


> I'm not really in love with catamarans. I like trimarans. I think it has to do with it being a "proper" (singular) boat in the middle, whereas a catamaran is like two boats tied together. Not very rational thinking, but I do prefer trimarans over catamarans.


And you have the Pt-11. It seems a nice one to me, a bit less radical then the Krysalis 42 but with more interior space and a nice interior. It seems fast to me

PT-11 by Performance Multihulls

And of course the Corsair 37 and the Dragonfly 35. All great boats.



PCP said:


> ...
> 
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> Lovely boat but with all the problems trimarans have versus same interior sized monohulls: price
> 
> The interior is functional but quite impersonal for living aboard. I guess not better than this one from the Corsair 37:
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> and this one is not so expensive and has the advantage of folding the arms for not paying the double in a marina.
> 
> I have to say that the PT 11 looks better (on the outside) and is probably a bit faster but the Corsair does also look good, particularly in its all carbon version that even so it is less expensive than the PT 11.
> 
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> But if money is not a problem neither space at the marina or the stark interior, for the ones that like to have fun....*what a bird!!!!!*


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## One

Those looks nice and some really nice interiors. I'd prefer not to buy a Dragonfly, though - They're a dime a dozen around my parts (I'm in Denmark, so that's natural).

Man, I never thought I'd be smitten with multihulls.


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## PCP

One said:


> ...
> 
> Man, I never thought I'd be smitten with multihulls.


I was interested in them as a cruiser for me. It turned out that I find out that an offshore one was too expensive for me.

Check out also the French guys from Challenge. They have a nice 37 and they made once a 42. They used to have a 34 for charter on the West coast of France. Maybe it was a good idea to charter one to see if that kind of boat is what you want as a cruiser.

Challenge 42 : la grande croisière rapide

Challange 37






Naval force 3 from Patrick Lefrère on Vimeo.

Regards

Paulo


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## One

PCP said:


> I was interested in them as a cruiser for me. It turned out that I find out that an offshore one was too expensive for me.
> 
> Check out also the French guys from Challenge. They have a nice 37 and they made once a 42. They used to have a 34 for charter on the West coast of France. Maybe it was a good idea to charter one to see if that kind of boat is what you want as a cruiser.
> 
> Challenge 42 : la grande croisière rapide
> 
> Challange 37
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Thanks, I _will _charter one before making my mind up in the end. That Challenge 42 is just awful. I mean, I get why they want more space below, but look at how much of extra wave slamming potential that creates.

In any case, I cruise alone, as as such, I could make a racing interior work just fine. Obviously I won't have a complete racing interior, as no matter which boat we're talking, it will be set up for singlehandling, and with only extra berths for my kid and gf. I don't need much. Hell, I don't even like to cook. A fridge is important to me (yes, I like to have fresh milk, butter and cold pops, and so on), so loads of solar and/or a hydro generator.


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## Anders B

Hi PCP,
I found your very interesting overview on keels. I more or less copied the post to my personal blogg
You will find it by googling on "piano" and "Hansson31".
I hope this is OK, otherwise I will erase it immidiately. Please let me know.
One topic I am very interested in is - keels! Both design and structural characteristics of keels. I have been searching the web for investigations of keel design. There is some about IACC keels. But almost nothing else. Two master thesis have been made at Chalmers University Sweden (my native country). Many different designs are found on new boats and my feeling is that keel design is an ad hoc business. Are you aware of specific investigations related to racing/crusing performance keels for say 30 - 50 footers? Center of gravity is one business. Type and design of bulb and layout and section of the fin are other important issues.
I found a pic of the Safran keel in your overview. My professional area is material science and solid mechanics (structural science). The only information about the fracture of the safran keel I have found is the official report from the Safran Sailing Team presented on the Vendee Globe website. You live much closer to Les Sables'DOlonne. Do you know where I can find more in depth information, about the design and the cause of the fracture?
Best Regards from Anders B


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## PCP

*Keels*



Anders B said:


> I found your very interesting overview on keels. I more or less copied the post to my personal blogg
> You will find it by googling on "piano" and "Hansson31".
> I hope this is OK, otherwise I will erase it immidiately. Please let me know.
> One topic I am very interested in is - keels! Both design and structural characteristics of keels. I have been searching the web for investigations of keel design. There is some about IACC keels. But almost nothing else. Two master thesis have been made at Chalmers University Sweden (my native country). Many different designs are found on new boats and my feeling is that keel design is an ad hoc business. Are you aware of specific investigations related to racing/crusing performance keels for say 30 - 50 footers? Center of gravity is one business. Type and design of bulb and layout and section of the fin are other important issues.
> I found a pic of the Safran keel in your overview. My professional area is material science and solid mechanics (structural science). The only information about the fracture of the safran keel I have found is the official report from the Safran Sailing Team presented on the Vendee Globe website. You live much closer to Les Sables'DOlonne. Do you know where I can find more in depth information, about the design and the cause of the fracture?


Hi Anders,

I read that report too and it seems very clear to me. As you know Safran (the sponsor) is an high tech company and the keel was made by them. They say:

*Analysis* 
The specialists analyzed the break in the keel's fin by microscopic observations to determine the failure mode. Samples were also taken from the metal to check if its characteristics matched the values used for strength calculations. At the same time, other experts calculated the loads experienced by the keel, based on observations of the break, and compared them to the standard loads used as a basis for its design.

*Results *
The investigation was able to exclude the possibility of a break due to a collision with an "unidentified floating object". It also noted that there were no metallurgical defects, and that the welds showed no anomalies that could explain the break. The investigation shows that the break was due to damage caused by metal fatigue, engendered by repeated shocks from contact with waves. There are no indications of a high-frequency vibration phenomenon.

A close look at the break spotlights the high loads due to the extreme sea conditions experienced by Safran over the last year, during the Transat Jacques Vabre 2011, the 2012 Round Britain race, and training runs for the Vendée Globe. The analysis confirms that the loads experienced by the keel were undoubtedly far higher than the standard values used by the design teams, as well as the values calculated from the shock recordings during the Transat Jacques Vabre 2009.

"The Safran Open 60 monohull ocean racer has undergone significant technical changes since 2010 to boost its performance," said Gérard Le Page, President of the Safran Sailing Team. "Facing increasingly fierce competition, the boat is subjected to ever-higher levels of stress, even under very sustained conditions. The shocks experienced by the boat and its appendages were also more violent, in particular exceeding the estimates used by the design team."

Safran will take advantage of the lessons learned through this investigation to design a new keel and work with Marc Guillemot to prepare for the next major race, the Transat Jacques Vabre 2013. Safran will of course make available all conclusions of this investigation to the IMOCA (International Monohull Open Class Association) Technical Committee, so that all shipowners and skippers can benefit from the lessons learned.

Results of the investigation into the causes of Safran's broken keel - Safran Sailing Team

Regarding keels they are as much studied as the hulls. In what regards performance cruisers that race at high level in handicap racing some brands even propose different keels for different rules. I mean they are not studied only in what regards pure performance but in what regards performance under a given rule. Any NA knows exactly were is the center of the gravity of a given keel and that is used to calculate the boat CG needed to the program computer to calculate the stability curves.

Regarding internet the information is not much but you can see here some studies made by ker regarding the Salona 35 and 38. The hull is not designed by him (they utilize the hulls of the 34 and 37 that are designed by J&J) he optimized the keel and rudder.

http://www.sailman.fi/documents/S38pressrelease19.5.2011.pdf

Salona 35





They sell the standard boat with a torpedo keel but if you want to compete on ORCI they can have the boat with one of these. They look odd but knowing the competence of Ker in design in what regards to winning races I am sure they will make a boat more competitive in ORCI but not in absolute performance.

This is a very complicated keel in the shape of a foil, with an interior light structure, lead on the bottom and a kind of foam on the top. The CG will not be as low as with a torpedo keel, so it will need to weight more but I am sure that will have less drag. Doing the maths in what regards the ORCI rule i am sure that will have advantages.

So you can see to what point those studies go

Look at the two possible keels on the JPK 38 (Valens).



A circle with a cross marks on both keels the CG. As you can see it is lower on the torpedo keel. That means that the swing keel will have to have more weight to compensate or have more draft. All this is completely dominated and studied by the NAs that study in computer programs also the drag of each solution even in what regards more complicated ones:



Take a look at these studies:

Naval Architecture : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects

Regarding the effect a given keel and the ballast has on a boat in what regards the stability, all is studied in full detail and the NA knows how the boat is going to perform (if they manage to build it according with his specs and that is not always the case). Some differences are expected to occur, specially in what regards weight. 
Now that the racing boats use canting keels those calculations are a lot more complicated but even so carried in great detail: Never saw a new Open 60 missing its inversion test:






That's because the NA had made previously their home work correctly

Regarding posting posts (or part of them) from this thread on your blog no problem but please make a reference regarding from where you have taken them.

best regards

Paulo


----------



## Anders B

Thanks/ Anders B


----------



## PCP

*Carbon blade Keels*



Anders B said:


> Thanks/ Anders B


One more information about keels: the ones that seem to be the most reliable in racing boats are the ones in Carbon (not the ballast obviously). There is not probably any boat that has reunited more experience with top keels than the Open 60's. The Open 60's are not only used on the Vendee Globe but also used extensively in many other races, inclusive another duo circumnavigation.

One of the men that knows more about the race and Open 60's is the two times winner and mentor of this year winner, Michel Desjoeaux and when he says that the Carbon is the most resistant material, well...he knows what he is talking about.

*"There is no miracle solution to choose a keel observes Michel Desjoyeaux, we move between price, reliability and performance. "his firm Mer Forte worked for two boats on the Vendée Globe: Savéol (Samantha Davies) and Macif (François Gabart). "For Samantha Davies we told her that the better option would be solid steel, recalls Michel Desjoyeaux.

She had no money for a carbon keel and then a solid steel one seemed to us the most reliable. "a not massive steel keel fabricated with a grid is lighter than solid steel and can be made with the adequate profile but the welding of the different sheet is very delicate. "In the industrial lambda landscape, welding is 50% as strong as the solid sheet, explains Michel Desjoyeaux. But if special care is taken to welding, you reach 75/80%.

"So for Macif, the mechanically welded keel was carried out by a specialized company Quimperlé with a welder and a welding specialist. This piece then requested an very careful maintenance because the welding "cook" the metal and makes it prone to rust. "At sea, the keels are close to the surface, immersed in saline oxygen-rich environment. This deteriorates the weldings and the steel tends to rust. "* (translated)

It seems that it is the more resistant material but not what allows for a lesser weight

He says that the Carbon is better (more resistant) but the boat that he prepared for the winner had a "Mecano" keel made of sheets of welded steel while the boat that come in 2th had a solid steel keel. The hulls were identical and I wonder if that difference in weight had to do with the marginal better performance of Macif.

Jean-Pierre, one of the three two that lost the keel had a solid steel as well as Alex while Stamm and wavre had carbon keels.

Riou had, like the winner a mechanically welded steel.

For keels I am referring to the blade.

It seems that Carbon on the blade of keels will be a technology that we will see more often in the future.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Anders B

Thanks again, the structural reliability of the fin is part one. Part two is the design of the bulb. I think this is where much of the "ad hoc" comes in. In the IMOCA 60 class, some agreement seems to be there. However, you can find almost everything among 30-50' feet racing/cruisers available on the market today. For example the new Far East 31 bulb with chines, the J-boat L-keels with flat bottom, T-keels with maximum thickness in the same position as the maximum fin thickness, very flat, beavertail etc. And all claim that they have an optimized design. However, I have not found proofs for this (with the exception of the investigations at Chalmers, google on "Keel", "design", "Chalmers", they are available in full text).
It may be so that the performance difference between different keel/bulb designs is small compared to other factors and therefore almost everything can be accepted. And it is good to have the flat bottom of the bulb when your boat is taken out of the water?


----------



## PCP

*Advanced keels*



Anders B said:


> .. the structural reliability of the fin is part one. Part two is the design of the bulb. I think this is where much of the "ad hoc" comes in. In the IMOCA 60 class, some agreement seems to be there. ...... ....
> It may be so that the performance difference between different keel/bulb designs is small compared to other factors and therefore almost everything can be accepted. And it is good to have the flat bottom of the bulb when your boat is taken out of the water?


That is an interesting academic work:

http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/148387.pdf

Today almost all NA use Computational Fluid Dynamics to design the hulls and keels. Some programs cost a fortune and smaller firms use them in time share.

I saw the keels on that study you mention and then went to the conclusions to see if there were some surprises, but no. What he found confirms what is common knowledge regarding keel performance and shape.

Regarding keels the most innovative study that I know is this one, by Lucas. Probably it will be the next step in what regards top racing boats keel design, not in what regards fluid Dynamics but in what regards the possibility of changing slightly boat CG. On the Open 60 they do that changing the quantity of water on the several water ballast tanks but this would provide the same effect without increasing the boat weight and that will bring an obvious advantages in performance...with some disadvantages in reliability due to the greater complexity of the system.

They are testing it on Mini class racers but I think the system would work better on bigger boats:

http://www.fr-lucas.com/images/technique/texte quille3d.pdf

Another interesting approach is the one by Defline with two canting keels:

2qp double quille pendulaire - defline yacht architecture

Even if here I cannot see the advantages regarding substituting the vertical keel by a foil, except maybe to cruising boats. Probably this system will also increase the motion comfort, again in what regards cruising boats. They tested it on a small boat and they are using it now on bigger cruising designs:







Anders B said:


> However, you can find almost everything among 30-50' feet racing/cruisers available on the market today. For example the new Far East 31 bulb with chines, the J-boat L-keels with flat bottom, T-keels with maximum thickness in the same position as the maximum fin thickness, very flat, beavertail etc. And all claim that they have an optimized design


Max RM with minimum drag is not the only think that counts here and I believe that flat shapes on Bulbs or a larger format regarding the shape of a torpedo was nothing to do with the minimum possible drag but with create that lift that way. If a boat has a force pushing him up it would be like if that boat had a reduction in weight and that has obviously performance advantages that can (or not) be more advantageous than a slightly bigger drag. I believe the calculations to calculate if that is advantageous or not will be far more complicated than the ones to access the drag of a given bulb.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Canting keels*

Since we are talking about them let's have a historical prespective:

The first one was invented and patented by the great Hereshoff himself in the XIX century yet. For the ones that don't know him Hereshoff was the Leonard Da Vinci of boat design: He designed fin keels, canting keels, and catamarans when there were not available resistant, light and stiff materials to build his inventions on a sustained basis. I never saw the design and I would love to, so if somebody has it or know where I can look at it, please say so.

The next guy to use the concept was Jim Young back in 1957. I had posted about him:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-363.html#post971567

The system did not seem much reliable and the boat, Fierry Cross, keep it only for a short time, beeing replaced for a fixed one. I don't know if that was due to technical problems or just for the boat to be able to compete.

Sail-World.com : Jim Young: A Contrast in Hull Forms

and the story goes on on the Micro and Mini racers probably the boats were more experimentation was made in the last 30 years. The first one to use the concept was Pascal Conq in, a kid that was also a NA student and a sail racer, back in 1982. He rediscovered the concept (did not know nothing about the previous attempts) and his keel is the one that give origin to the modern models. Contrary to the other two that was the only one that come inside the hull.

*Back in 1981, the Micro rule is the only rule that cares about innovation in yacht design, although it is more of a rectrictive than open rule. It is also a rule meant for small budgets. Not a detail for 20 year old students!

Pascal and his pals brainstorm : Like him, Paul-François Coustou studies architecture in Rennes. Yannick Dupetit is his cousin, and together they will win the Tour de France à la Voile in 1985. They start from a blank sheet of paper, and apply the new thinking methods they are learning from their studies.

Pascal proposes to cant the keel to move its center of gravity to windward, thereby increasing the boat's righting moment. As far as they know, no one have ever done this, but they believe in their idea. They are not to be stopped !

Of course, on second thought, it is easy to see that this size of boat isn't the best to show the full potential of this innovation, because the weight of the crew has a far greater influence. But despite a few teething problems (rudder failure in Toulon, crash in Granville), they win a leg... in Granville in 1984. The same year, they take third place in the Tour de France à la Voile, and have an easy win the following year.

1985 is also the year when Pascal graduates from Architecture scholl and meets Jean-Marie Finot...*

Those were the days



Jean Marie Finot, already a major NA was so impressed that invited him to work with him and later give him equal status on his firm (Finot/Conq), a firm that today continues to be an innovative and major one.

finot-conq architectes navals

In the words of Pascal Conq:

*In 1982 with 2 buddies, I designed and constructed a Micro cupper that was called Urgent,with a canting keel. I was thinking it was the first canting keeler ever build. (More info Bateaux sail magazine on the Micro of 1982 and 1984).

Our research of stability involved crew displacing, stacking (all loose material inside boat) and a canting keel. It is a very heavy part of the boat that is geometrically easy to move from side to side.

Then we designed a canting keel for Michel Desjoyaux in 1989 on a Faroux minitransat and for Isabelle Autissier on her first Open 60, a design of Berret.

Then in 1997 Christophe Auguin participates in the Vendée Globe on a 60 feet with canting keel drawn totally by our office. It is the first boat to accomplish a tour of the world with this system.

The advantages:

One can increase the stability of the boat considerably, 50% more then normal keel in the best case. This while increasing the mass of the boat little. (system about 5% of the weight of the boat). 
So be carrying more sails, a gain of speed upto 15%. 
The system of the keel permits it to adapt quickly to the conditions of navigation's.

The inconveniences:

1-A lot of complexity around the axes. New source of mechanical problems that must not be treated to the light. Conception, manufacture and placement must be of a big quality. 
2-A cumbersome system in the center of the boat, that also poses a problem of water tightness. 
3-More expensive. 
4-The lift force of a cantingkeel is bad, so you have to install a more complicated daggerboard.*

The 29, that revolutionary boat, is still racing in Mini class races.

And of course great sailors have to be mixed in the story. who was that thought that the concept was valid and have the first to win in one? Of course, the two times vendee Globe winner, Michel DESJOYEAUX, when he was just a little more than a kid. In his words:
...
*Harken made and launched in 1991 a cruiser "concept boat" wich was with, winglet canting keel, bipode mast, on rams. ..

In the same time, I made the first offshore race with one on a Mini Transat in 1991. I broke my rudders in the first leg, and won the second leg. ...
*

cantingkeel 29

Canting keels : A 30 years story ! | finot-conq architectes navals

A long story that starts on the XIX century with an Idea that has his first race offshore victory in 1991. 22 years of story. Not much bit a big evolution an evolution that is far from being finished.

I have saw along the years some performance cruisers with canting keels. The next step will be the first production boat (in considerable numbers) with one. Some say that it would not ever happen. I am pretty sure they are wrong

http://www.mshipco.com/pdf/SailingWorld_CBTF_Sep2008.pdf

....


----------



## DiasDePlaya

One said:


> I'm not really in love with catamarans. I like trimarans. I think it has to do with it being a "proper" (singular) boat in the middle, whereas a catamaran is like two boats tied together. Not very rational thinking, but I do prefer trimarans over catamarans.


But this is a FOILED one!


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## One

DiasDePlaya said:


> But this is a FOILED one!


Yes, well, I _still _don't want one.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Sensei by Felci*



PCP said:


> and since we are talking about daysailers ...


One that I like is the Summit MD35. For me that I'm Chilean the main advantaje is this boat is made in Argentina, then I can go to Buenos Aires to buy one and transport it on a trailer to Chile.


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## Anders B

PCP, you are a true dwell of knowledge. Thanks again! /Anders B


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## PCP

*Les Voiles de Saint Barth 2013*

some nice boats and sunny days on Sant Barth:


----------



## PCP

*Summit yachts*



DiasDePlaya said:


> One that I like is the Summit MD35. For me that I'm Chilean the main advantaje is this boat is made in Argentina, then I can go to Buenos Aires to buy one and transport it on a trailer to Chile.
> 
> MD35 Matagi - YouTube


Yes, that boat is beautiful. It is only that one or all Summit yachts are made in Argentina?

You know it is pretty odd, I think the Summit are among the most beautiful boats and certainly between the best American boats, I have talked about them here already but I can't remember to see any thread or mention about them on the Sailnet except here. And there are still some that say I don't like American boats

I like particularly the Summit 40 that has already some years and was known before as King 40, a Mills design that has not taken any wrinkles. Still a very fast and beautiful boat.

It is a pity they have not provide it with a good cruising interior but maybe they know that even with a nice interior there are no market in America for fast performance cruisers. American sailors still consider them just racing boats so they make them with a very simple interiors because they know that the few that are going to buy them will be racers.

In Europe there is a much bigger percentage of cruisers that buy performance cruisers and some brands like Salona or Pogo are already selling more boats to cruisers than to racers.

Some movies with the Summit/King 40:


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## DiasDePlaya

> It is only that one or all Summit yachts are made in Argentina?


I'm not sure, but I understand that the King 40 and the MD 35 are made in Argentina.


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## capnJudd

Paulo!
What are all these numbers?
e.g. What does "PG10-PT93; 100-996;" mean?


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## DiasDePlaya

PG = Page, PT = Post.

Your post is 421-4202, this mean that your post is in the page 421 and have the number 4202. Mine post is 421-4203.


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## bjung

I thought this article ( even if it is 5 years old ) fits well into some of the discussions here on boat speed regarding sail aerodynamics, angle of heel and the influence of beam. http://www.sailyachtresearch.org/images/stories/pdf/seahorse_july2007.pdf


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## PCP

*Index*



capnJudd said:


> Paulo!
> What are all these numbers?
> e.g. What does "PG10-PT93; 100-996;" mean?


Yes, that's right but I hive up to actualize that Index log ago. Too much work The advanced search engine on the thread works pretty well. sometimes too much results for very popular boats but it is just a question of having some patient.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*IMS, ORCI, Open boats and sailboat design.*



bjung said:


> I thought this article ( even if it is 5 years old ) fits well into some of the discussions here on boat speed regarding sail aerodynamics, angle of heel and the influence of beam. http://www.sailyachtresearch.org/images/stories/pdf/seahorse_july2007.pdf


Yes and also why the last generation of performance cruisers are better sailing boats than the previous generations. I am talking about boats with a keel all in lead without a bulb versus bulbed boats, boats with more RM, more powerful and faster. Those powerful and stiff boats rated badly some years ago so the boats that won races (in compensated) were not the fastest or more seaworthy ones and that lead the design of cruising boats in that direction.

That has changed and since some years ago the results in real time are much more equivalent to the results in compensated time. The only exception were very light boats with a big B/D ratio of moderated beam, that were in fact much faster but had problems in winning in compensated.

I have been posting here news about the meetings the racing community has promoted with designers and the ones that makes the rules to address that problem. Some alterations on the good sense have been made in the last couple of years to resolve that on ORCI and today that handicap rule seems to have reunited a consensus in what regards a future rule for all. Some resistance from the ones that have boats that rate unfairly better in IRC is expected. Much work has to be done but all seems to go in the right direction.

That story about boats with a smaller stability and not as fast as they could be is funny because many still think that twenty or fifteen years old cruiser racers are better as cruising boats then the most recent crop of cruiser racers when it is the opposite: Old boats tend to be tender were not designed with performance in mind but to suit a rule that favored slow boats and boats with a smaller stability:

*"Despite this narrowing of designs in the ACC box rule, the opposite trend became evident several years ago when trying to handicap using a VPP. For IMS this meant optimal designs started exhibiting less and less stability, with bulbs disappearing from the bottoms of keels to be replaced by fin
keels. The tips of fin keels were soon composed of materials other than lead as high-performance deep-draft keels were regarded as desirable but so was low stability. ...

In any case, designers concluded that the VPP overvalued stability. A tender
boat was predicted as slower than it actually was, so the obvious solution for
designers was to exploit that bias: make the boat slower knowing it would not be as slow as the rule predicted. With that rating credit in hand the designer could then make a longer, bigger boat, perhaps with more sail area, to get the rating back up to that of the competitors. The end result was a boat that although tender was actually faster through sheer size.

Without rule considerations, however,these boats were not as fast as they could and should have been for their size.

Although the Offshore Racing Congress have recently taken steps to correct the problem in the IMS VPP, it was too late and the favourable treatment of undesirable designs partly contributed to the demise of IMS racing here in the US...."*

http://www.sailyachtresearch.org/images/stories/pdf/seahorse_july2007.pdf

Tn Europe the result was a kind of separation between racing boats and cruiser racer boasts. While the first were designed to perform as well as their size allowed, the others were designed to beat a given set of rules and that unfortunately means not to be developed taking performance in mind but winning on handicap, not real time.

The ones that liked fast boats quickly started racing in several one design series or Open boats with a very open rule. That lead to two divergent lines of development (I would say three of we count solo racers) in what regards boat design, something that had never happened in the past.

Logically the one that shows more influence on cruising boats today are the one that comes for solo boats, boats those were designed with performance in mind, out of almost any rule but because they were designed to be sailed in auto pilot most of the time they had to be easy and forgiving boats to sail, a condition that suits perfectly cruising boats.

Most performance cruisers, because they can be used as cruiser racers come from the line of the IMS boats (Handicap racing) but now corrected in what regards stability and speed and others come from the development line of solo racers. Curiously they are fast boats but has not any use for racing: They were designed taking only into account pure performance and easiness, not any handicap rule and therefore rate horribly bad. Anyway there are many sailors that just don't care: They don't want the boat for racing, they want just a fast easily driven cruising boat. That is what explains the success of boats like the Pogo or the RM as performance cruisers.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Orci*

and talking about the growing interest in ORCI in these times of crisis:

*"There were 119 entries in the 2011 ORCi World Championship in Cres, 135 at the 2012 Audi ORCi World Championship in Helsinki, and here in early April it is a number that is approaching fast for organizers of the ORC World Championship 2013 in Ancona, Italy.

While many sailing events around the world have struggled to keep up their participation levels, this year event organizers in Ancona have the opposite problem: they have put a limit on entries, the first time ever for an ORC championship event.

"Our host venue at Marina Dorica is a fantastic facility," says racing manager Paolo Massarini. "But with more than 130 boats from 12 countries we could not guarantee space for everyone, which includes proper accommodation for the boats but also the crews and their families and friends. Comune di Ancona and the Regione Marche have been very helpful to anticipate a large crowd of over 1000 people coming to this event, so we have to be realistic in making sure there is space for everyone....

Another reason to limit entries is that a race fleet that is too large can also compromise the quality of racing within the format allowed by the International Sailing Federation (ISAF). Since only two World Championship titles can be awarded according to ISAF rules, the large fleet can be split into only two separate regattas to determine a winner for each. At up to 70 entries in either class, this will still be quite a large group for Principal Race Officer Alfredo Ricci and his team to manage to race in a way that gives a fair chance to every participant. Formats such as multiple course areas are being considered to handle the large fleet.

"Fairness is extremely important at the World Championship," says ORC Chairman Bruno Finzi. "There are many boats coming from not only the Mediterranean region but from all over the world, with most making a tremendous investment in their preparation to compete. So it is important that we make sure that all aspects of the competition are fair and transparent: the measurements, the ratings, the race courses and the scoring must be absolutely clear to all who participate."
*
ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology

*As a result of having the complete matrix of predicted boat speed at various wind strengths and directions, ORC rating systems can therefore provide a variety of methods to calculate corrected time. Scoring options offered include the most sophisticated, where the boat's performance is taken in consideration depending on the wind conditions, but also simple scoring options using single number scoring coefficients in either Time on Time or Time 0n Distance formats. Simple scoring options also include Performance line as a combination of Time on Time (ToT) and Time on Distance (ToD). There is also the Triple number system that uses three different Time on Time coefficients to be used in light, medium and heavy breezes. All simple scoring options are also given for either Inshore (windward-leeward) or Offshore races.

This wide variety of scoring options may look complex, but it is actually one of the strength of the ORC rating systems to offer race managers a variety to choose from that best suits their fleet, their race type and their race conditions. The factors race managers should consider when choosing which scoring type to use include:

type and level of the fleet - better to use simple systems for club-level racing

type of race- windward/leeward or an offshore race

the difference between fastest and slowest boat - important to know how to

divide classes and to combine entries for overall prizes

prevailing weather condition- are they steady or variable during the race

tradition of particular type for eg, Time on Time or Time on Distance

is there current in the area, and can it be predicted - if not, then ToT is better than ToD

Because the ORC VPP can predict the performance potential of different boat types, it can rate them fairly against each other in any range of wind conditions and course types. In this way Performance Curve Scoring can make handicap yacht scoring significantly more fair than any single number scoring approach.
*

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1017206

Last year in Helsinki it was like this:






Boats everywhere. I guess that if this continues to grow they have to run qualification races for the world championship. That's unavoidable with the growing interest on ORCI.






Two years ago in Australia:

*We talked to Matt Allen pre-Hobart about the two rules.

He explained 'ORCi addresses stability issues where IRC doesn't. The ORCi stability index is derived from the old IMS stability index which is something that we all know and trust in a comprehensive fashion. It's used today to determine whether boats meet the stability requires for the Hobart race.

'ORCi is a transparent rule while IRC is not. There are pros and cons for each rule.

'I think also measuring the stability is a good thing as long as stability is encouraged. We don't want to go back to sailing tippy boats. IMS, people thought it was in some respects a good rule but didn't encourage boats to be stable and didn't move with the times and possibly didn't encourage boats to be quick as much as one might have wanted them to be.

'I think IRC encouraged quick boats at 50 foot plus and has traditionally not encouraged boats under 50 feet or under 45 feet to be all that fast.

'There is a comment from a lot of countries where they believe that the racer cruiser is more fairly treated in ORCi than IRC.

'They tend to think that some production boats do well under IRC while other brands do not seem to be nearly as well handicapped. Under ORCi they are possibly more evenly treated. ...

Dobbs Davis from the Offshore Rating Council commented 'ORC seems to be doing a better job across a broader range of boat types than some of the other rating rules. ...

'Back in the days of IMS in the late 90s and early 2000s the measurement of stability was there but it was not accurately modelled in the performance of the VPP so the designers have worked around it.

'That's been gone since 2007 when the ORC invested heavily in better analysis to produce much more accurate results.

'Under ORCi Fast boats do fine and slow boats do fine. That's the challenge of all these rules, to make them work across the range of boat types. It is a challenge for sure but based on the results that we saw from the recent World Championships where we had 119 boats from 16 countries and in which we had that broad range of boat types, it seems to be working and it seems to be fair.

'Owners are dissatisfied with strong type forming in the rules. The analysis we did from the last Worlds results show, are not strong type forming tendencies that the ORC type system might work as a good alternative across boat types but most importantly is it offers flexibility. ...

'It's a scientific based system with no politics, no guessing. The rule is downloadable.

'Boats are entering ORCi because they get a certificate anyway to get the stability. 
*
ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology

*The Royal Ocean Racing Club (RORC) and Union Nationale pour La Course au Large (UNCL), joint owners of the IRC rating rule, have been in discussion with the Offshore Racing Congress (ORC) about the possibility of creating a unified organisation to govern yacht ratings worldwide. This initiative to bring the world offshore rating systems together was endorsed by ISAF following its AGM in 2009 in Korea.

The intention is for RORC/UNCL and ORC to create a joint venture company which would run the existing rules, IRC and ORC and then in time, using the combined knowledge and resources, evolve new rating systems that combine the benefits of IRC and ORC to create fast, fun and seaworthy boats for unified competition all over the world. *

http://www.nrv.de/uploads/media/PressreleaseRORC.pdf


----------



## PCP

*Fox 10.20 Capado*

And after those last two boring posts, the two last videos from Capado, almost finishing their circumnavigation:


----------



## PCP

*Sailing*


----------



## PCP

*Modern boat design and Computer Fluid Dynamics (CFD)*

This is an old movie: in what regards to computers and programs 5 years is a long time. We can see here the importance of computer and tank testing in what regards evaluating (and modifying) a design to make it sail better regarding the conditions in what he is going to perform.

Here they are developing a offshore fast sailboat. This was made by students, not really professionals that I believe will have another debt in what regards hydrodynamic studies.

*" a 12-m length, 4.5m beam mono-hull sailboat, ready for navigating storms and enjoying extreme sea conditions. A project carried out by members of D-Tank and Rücker Ibérica, in collaboration with the Elisava Superior School of Design" *






and some more:


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## PCP

*Boreal shipyard*

I have been posting a lot about Allures, not only because they have a new boat but because we can find on line great movies, boat tests and nice movies. We cannot find almost anything about the Boreal. The movies on line are very bad they don't offer the boat to magazines for testing they did not even post on the internet decent pictures.

The owner of the company thinks that is not needed and that they will sell boats to the ones that know what they want and trust in their quality. Maybe, but I don't believe they will grow that way and not growing will make their boats more expensive than the ones produced in bigger number due to scale economy. All this because Boreal posted a movie on line. not a great one, they could have hired a professional, does not include any images of the boats sailing, it is in French and has no sub titles but at least we can see how the boats are made and the seriousness of their approach.

Here it is:


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## Anders B

*Re: Advanced keels*



PCP said:


> I saw the keels on that study you mention and then went to the conclusions to see if there were some surprises, but no. What he found confirms what is common knowledge regarding keel performance and shape.


My conclusions from the three Chalmers investigations are:
The first conclusion is that maximum thickness of the bulb must be placed well back from maximum thickness of the fin. Otherwise an extended lowpressure area is generated on the suction side (with contributions from both the bulb and the fin) that causes flow separation. Loss of lift is obtained and a really bad keel from the hydrodynamic point of view is obtained. Two T-keel designs were investigated, one with coinciding maximum thicknesses of the bulb and fin and one with maximum bulb thickness behind the rear end of the fin. The results clearly showed that the second one was best.

The second conclusion is the a flat bottom with sharp edges (chines) of the bulb is not a competitive design. A optimization was peformed where the shape of the bulb was allowed to vary from flat bottom (with sharp edges) to rounded. Rounded showed higher performance.

The Chalmers investigations were performed about 2 years ago, the results are public and should be known by serious designers (especially as Lars Larsson was the supervisor). Fixed keel design for recent custom yachts do not show an impact of this and my personal conclusion is that keel design is an _ad hoc_ thing.


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## PCP

*Re: Advanced keels*



Anders B said:


> My conclusions from the three Chalmers investigations are:
> The first conclusion is that maximum thickness of the bulb must be placed well back from maximum thickness of the fin. Otherwise an extended lowpressure area is generated on the suction side (with contributions from both the bulb and the fin) that causes flow separation. Loss of lift is obtained and a really bad keel from the hydrodynamic point of view is obtained. Two T-keel designs were investigated, one with coinciding maximum thicknesses of the bulb and fin and one with maximum bulb thickness behind the rear end of the fin. The results clearly showed that the second one was best.
> 
> The second conclusion is the a flat bottom with sharp edges (chines) of the bulb is not a competitive design. A optimization was peformed where the shape of the bulb was allowed to vary from flat bottom (with sharp edges) to rounded. Rounded showed higher performance.
> 
> The Chalmers investigations were performed about 2 years ago, the results are public and should be known by serious designers (especially as Lars Larsson was the supervisor). Fixed keel design for recent custom yachts do not show an impact of this and my personal conclusion is that keel design is an _ad hoc_ thing.


I am not sure If I understand what you want to say. There were 4 keels on that study :



and the conclusions are:

*As can be seen in the graph, of the bulb keels, keel 4 has lowest drag at zero angle of attack. It increases faster than keel 3, which means that at 4° angle of attack keel 3 and 4 have equally large drag forces. Keel 1 was as expected best performing, but it was only evaluated as reference.

Figure 50 describes the most important behaviour and performance of the keels: the relationship between lift and drag forces. From the graph any given lift can be set, and a corresponding drag can be read. It can clearly be found that keel 4 is the better performing one of the bulb keels; especially at 
small angles of attack. At larger angles of attack the trends from this curve, and more specifically from .. keel 3 is the best performing keel. This however only for very large angles of attack, for more reasonable angles of attack keel 4 is the best performing bulb keel. It is quite clear that keel 2 is inferior to the others at all lift coefficients measured.*

On the evaluation of performance even if the differences are very small the results confirm the drag and lift conclusions. They have considered 16K of wind but I believe that if they had considered a much smaller wind speed the differences would be bigger.

*As can be seen in Table 7 the results between the keels are very even. Keel 1 has no bulb and that makes it not comparable to the keels with bulbs. During the VPP keel 1 has only been used as a reference. Between the bulb keels, keel 4 is the winner; it has a higher velocity at all wind directions than both keel 2 and keel 3. The Keel with the worst performance is keel 2; but it is very close between the last two bulb keels.

The keels were also evaluated against each other on a race....
The times for completing the race are extremely similar. Keel 4 has the lowest lap time for the different true wind speeds. What's most interesting is that at low true wind speeds keel 4 is even faster that keel 1. 
*

http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/148387.pdf

Those are the conclusions of the study and those are common knowledge.

What he has done regarding CFD in the keels is what all NA, at least the ones that design race or performance sailboats do when they design the boats. They do that for the hull, for the keel and for the rudder(s).

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Solaris 48*

and after that rather technical stuff about keels, something much more beautiful, the Solaris 48 on a test by the Dutch magazine Zeilen.

I guess that with the exception of Eric, we all understand about the same regarding what the guy say about the boat but I am quite sure he is saying nice things and the images talk by themselves. It is a beautiful boat and that garage is just huge for a 48ft boat. I bet my dinghy fits there and I would like very much to have one of those on my boat.


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## bjung

*Re: Solaris 48*



PCP said:


> and after that rather technical stuff about keels, something much more beautiful, the Solaris 48 on a test by the Dutch magazine Zeilen.
> 
> I guess that with the exception of Eric, we all understand about the same regarding what the guy say about the boat but I am quite sure he is saying nice things and the images talk by themselves. It is a beautiful boat and that garage is just huge for a 48ft boat. I bet my dinghy fits there and I would like very much to have one of those on my boat.


Beautiful boat, and imagine that: The NA is from Norwalk , CT... 
Sadly we have no builders here commissioning these type of boats. I assume the market is larger in EU?!


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## PCP

*Bill Tripp*

Italians love beautiful boats and contrary to Americans many rich guys prefer sailboats to motorboats. A sailboat gives more status, it has more class. Any doubt about that? 

Regarding Bill Trip, the son of another great NA with the same name, he designs very beautiful boats and several European boat builders use their services and talent, among them Solaris.

I find absolutely disgraceful mass productio American sailboats like Hunter or Catalina being designed by minor NA while great American NA work for European brands. I believe that the bigger difference in quality between American mass produced sailboat and European ones has to do mainly because European brands have their boats designed by the best world NA while American ones are designed "in the house".

Some beautiful Bill Trip designed sailboats:











Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Aluwind 56*





A beauty isn't it?. That is also a sad story. There was once an aluminum boat builder in Italy, Aluwind. They started with a bad idea, a Bill Dixon 44 old design, have it modified by Zerbinati and then when they commissioned this nice one to Zerbinati something went wrong, or the owner of the boat back off or they were making it without being already sold and went out of money, I don't know.... they bankrupted and a nice hull and cabin is for sell.

I have to say that the design of the interior they were proposing was quite ugly and that can have contributed to the disaster. If it is not already sold, there are a very nice hull, built by a firm specialized in aluminum boat building in Italy, probably at a very nice price ready to be finished.

Maybe that ends up to be somebody's luck

I like the classic style and the dimensions. You can see the dimensions and the real boat here:

NEW CLASSIC 56


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## PCP

*Iy 10.98*

The IY 10.98 (Italia yachts) is one of the 36ft that I like more. It is light, it is fast, it has a great cruising interior and a classical look. Well to be true the classical look is the thing I like less, I mean I like a classical touch but here it is too... uninspired? Anyway I am being picky. Personally I would take this one easily over the Dufour 36 performance (a very different boat).

If you want to see how this baby takes nasty weather have a look;



and have a better look here, I think you will be impressed (I was):

IY 10.98 "Trilli" in Regatta | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Some movies that give a pretty good idea how the boat sail in light weather and show an high quality interior and I mean really high:











and now have another look:





 I guess they agree with me regarding the previous version being too uninspired because they changed it and this one is just perfect: What a beautiful boat, what a great boat!!!!!

You will be only able to understand my enthusiasm if you visit the boat and look at the quality of everything but you will be able to understand half of it if you look at the boat dimensions:



Get it?

ITALIA YACHTS » IY10.98 » Technical specifications

This is a Mauricio Cossutti design and can be made on two versions, one with a bigger draft, carbon mast and all that will make it a high performance racer in handicap racing (not losing its cruise ability) and other less pointed to racing, with a smaller draft and eventually a bigger water tankage.

Regarding performance at high level, the boat made 5th on the 2011 World ORCI championship (they claim first among standard boats) they didn't race on the 2012 (far away in Finland) and I am very curious about the performance on the 2013 World Championship that it will be in Italy, were several boats will race for sure.

A gem this one

...


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## PCP

*NM 38, the ORCI world Champion (B class)*

And since we are talking about the IY 10.98, Mauricio Cossutti and this year ORCI world championship, he have to talk about the Champion on that size of boats, the NM 38 and surprise surprise, another Mauricio Cossuti design

The boats look very distinct but the hull is not very different even if the NM38 is more narrow and the IY 10.98 has a slightly bigger B/D ratio. This means that the NM38 is all about small drag and finesse...and it seems it works

I have already posted about it:



PCP said:


> New boat and nothing less than the actual Italian champion:
> 
> http://www.campionatoitalianoaltura2011.it/sites/default/files/06quotidianotriestewev.pdf
> 
> Another 38ft performance cruiser, an Italian one and as most of the Italian sailboats, a beauty: the NM 38.
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> The boat looks great and those interiors seem very nice, especially the more modern (less wood) unfortunately they look a bit less impressive in reality:
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> *The hull and deck are constructed under a vacuum, using female moulds and are made in PVC "sandwich" style with unidirectional and biaxial fibers glass and laminated with epoxy resin (with a lifetime guarantee against osmosis).
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> The carbon fibers used to reinforce the hull bottom gives a greater structural rigidity. Hull and deck are subjected to a post-treatment cycle for maximum performance of mechanical rigidity.
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> The structure grid is made of carbon and support the loads of the keel, mast and chain-plates, making the entire craft highly secure, even in extreme conditions.
> 
> Bulkheads are of marine plywood which are attached to the hull and fixed on the deck. The anti-collision bulkheads forward and aft are made with the same techniques like the hull and deck, so the stern and the bow of the boat are lighter and passing the wave is more comfortable.*
> 
> It seems great. It is a pity that this boat has a mot very high D/B ratio, 0.309 for a 1.95m draft with a relativelly narrow hull. A crew seated on the side would not be indispensable but I bet this boat will reef rely soon without it and will have its performance noticeably handicapped. That and an interior a bit impersonal seem to me the only drawbacks for a boat that don't seem very expensive for its quality: 168 000€ without taxes.
> 
> About more 38 500€ more than the salona 38, but for having a boat with similar specs (vacuum infused and epoxy resins) the difference would be only 18 300€. However the Salona interiors seems a lot better to me.
> 
> *Technical specifications
> EC Certification: cat. A
> Width overall: 11.40 mt
> Length water line: 10.15 mt
> Full beam: 3.58 mt
> Draught: 1.97 / 2.30 mt
> Displacement: 5.500 Kg
> Ballast: 1.700 Kg
> Berths: 2 / 3
> Sail Area: 78 mq
> Mainsail: 44 mq
> Jib 105%: 34.5 mq
> Spinnaker area (ORC): 100 mq*


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## Anders B

PCP said:


> Some very interesting information about the JPK 1010 that probably is relevant for other similar cases:
> 
> *They have compared a 1010 in IRC set up (Keel without a bulb and a single rudder) with a 1010 on Ocean Racing configuration, with a bulbed keel and two rudders.* Boats in the water at the same time with wind conditions between 13 and 20K.


This an old post about JPK 1010. Is this a public report? Pics and details about the keels are very interesting. I like the size of JPK 1010 and the performance seems to be good.


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## PCP

*Jpk 10.10*



Anders B said:


> This an old post about JPK 1010. Is this a public report? Pics and details about the keels are very interesting. I like the size of JPK 1010 and the performance seems to be good.


Yes the boat has proved itself on the racing field, in regatta and solo racing (transquadra). It is designed more taking racing in consideration than cruising even if it will not have problem in doing that if adapted, if one is Spartan enough. If the boat as a cruising boat can be considered Spartan as a racer it is a top one.

The boat JPK has intended to fast cruising is the JPK 38. I have posted about it and I think you will find it interesting. It has many similarities with your boat (Opium 39) including a swing keel, among other configurations.


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## PCP

*Jpk 38*

And since we revisited the JPK 10.10 let's have another look to the boat JPK designed expressly for cruising and solo sailing, the JPK 38. I am partial about this one because I like it very much.

They proposed initially a swing keel option and I don't know if they will make one if the client asks but it seems that they have fixed on two standard configurations: Bulbed keel with a 2.15m draft and twin bulbed keels with 1.75m draft.

The B/D ratio is very good for this type of boat and keel: 38%. That with the big hull form stability means a huge stiffness and a very powerful and stable boat.

The hull is beamy, with fine entries and based on the shape of ocean racers but proportionally less beamy than a Pogo. I like the interior too.

A fast and easy to sail boat that will provide a lot of sailing pleasure with good cruising accommodation and with a more than reasonable draft, considering the twin keel version at a fair price with the advantage of the possibility of customization specially in what regards rigging and sailor preferences. JPK is a great sailor and a very nice guy and will provide very useful information that makes easy to chose the best configuration to each one.


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## Chimbatete

*Re: Iy 10.98*



PCP said:


> The IY 10.98 (Italia yachts) is one of the 36ft that I like more. It is light, it is fast, it has a great cruising interior and a classical look. Well to be true the classical look is the thing I like less, I mean I like a classical touch but here it is too... uninspired? Anyway I am being picky. Personally I would take this one easily over the Dufour 36 performance (a very different boat).
> 
> If you want to see how this baby takes nasty weather have a look;
> 
> 
> 
> and have a better look here, I think you will be impressed (I was):
> 
> IY 10.98 "Trilli" in Regatta | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> Some movies that give a pretty good idea how the boat sail in light weather and show an high quality interior and I mean really high:
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> and now have another look:
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> A gem this one
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> ...


Hi Paulo,

Since these boats are not found in NA you made a point of reference to the Dufour 36P (which is a good boat) and say you'll take this over it (whatever reasons).

Now how would you compare this boat to a Salona 37 (or the new 38) for example? As far as quality/perceived performance in general?

I ask this because this is a very attractive boat and I see that its possible to have it sail away for $225k which is less than a new J111 here by quite a bit with a much better interior and cockpit (unless my eyes are mistaken).

Just want to get perspectives.


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## PCP

*Iy 10.98, Solaris 37 and Salona 38*



Chimbatete said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Since these boats are not found in NA you made a point of reference to the Dufour 36P (which is a good boat) and say you'll take this over it (whatever reasons).
> 
> Now how would you compare this boat to a Salona 37 (or the new 38) for example? As far as quality/perceived performance in general?
> 
> I ask this because this is a very attractive boat and I see that its possible to have it sail away for $225k which is less than a new J111 here by quite a bit with a much better interior and cockpit (unless my eyes are mistaken).
> 
> Just want to get perspectives.


 Hi Chimbatete,.... long absence

Do you have a boat already?

The first time I heard about that boat was when I was test sailing the Salona 38, two years ago. The guy that was test sailing the boat with me was trying to decide between a Salona 38 and a IY 10.98. I don't know what boat he had chose, he was really undecided.

To tell you the truth I have never be inside the IY 10.98 but visited the IY 13.98






The quality of design and finish of the IY 13.98 is awesome and I am assuming the IY 10.98 has the same quality. The movie and the photos I have seen show a very nice interior but that is not the same as to visit the boat.

Talking about the 13.98, it won the 2013 European boat of the year contest for the best *luxury cruiser*. Yes that's right, luxury cruiser and it is the first time that a performance boat won that on the Luxury category. This gives you an idea of the boat finish...and also a hint in what regards price.

It is a great praise to Salona 38 that a guy interested in the IY 10.98 was comparing it with a Salona 38. For comparison you have to look not at Salona but to the Solaris 37. The YI 10.98 will be faster, more adapted to a dual use (regatta and cruising) and the Solaris will be less nervous and probably a better bluewater boat due to his bigger weight. Not that I would have any problem with the IY offshore, even to cross the pound or to cruise extensively, but I travel light






The Salona 38 is not on the luxury class

It has a good interior, well finished but it cannot be compared in interior quality to any of these boats. you can compare them with Halberg Rassy or with Arcona, not with a Salona, but then the price is not comparable too.

If that is what you want and have the money for a Solaris or a IY probably you will have a boat that will give you great pride to own and a very beautiful and fast boat.

Back to the Salona 38, the boat can be ordered in many configurations but only a top one will be able to compete with the IY 10.98 in regatta terms. The difference in price will not be so big but will be still substantial.

The Salona 38 is a bigger boat (more half a meter) and for the pictures, it seems that you can notice that on the interior. The Salona 38 will be faster than the Solaris 37 and will offer a great price regarding the quality. The Solaris and the IY are not build to a price, or at least that does not show, they are perfect and perfection does not comes cheap

*MOVIE SALONA 38:*

Neue Salona 38 im Schwerwettertest - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

I don't understand what the J 111 has to do with any of these boats. The J 111 is much of a racer with an interior that will only provide a very spartan cruising. Anyway to race a J111 you need a lot of experience and a crew. Have you been sailing and racing?






Regards

Paulo


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## Chimbatete

*Re: Iy 10.98, Solaris 37 and Salona 38*



PCP said:


> Hi Chimbatete,.... long absence
> 
> Do you have a boat already?
> 
> The first time I heard about that boat was when I was test sailing the Salona 38, two years ago. The guy that was test sailing the boat with me was trying to decide between a Salona 38 and a IY 10.98. I don't know what boat he had chose, he was really undecided.
> 
> To tell you the truth I have never be inside the IY 10.98 but visited the IY 13.98
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> The quality of design and finish of the IY 13.98 is awesome and I am assuming the IY 10.98 has the same quality. The movie and the photos I have seen show a very nice interior but that is not the same as to visit the boat.
> 
> Talking about the 13.98, it won the 2013 European boat of the year contest for the best *luxury cruiser*. Yes that's right, luxury cruiser and it is the first time that a performance boat won that on the Luxury category. This gives you an idea of the boat finish...and also a hint in what regards price.
> 
> It is a great praise to Salona 38 that a guy interested in the IY 10.98 was comparing it with a Salona 38. For comparison you have to look not at Salona but to the Solaris 37. The YI 10.98 will be faster, more adapted to a dual use (regatta and cruising) and the Solaris will be less nervous and probably a better bluewater boat due to his bigger weight. Not that I would have any problem with the IY offshore, even to cross the pound or to cruise extensively, but I travel light
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> The Salona 38 is not on the luxury class
> 
> It has a good interior, well finished but it cannot be compared in interior quality to any of these boats. you can compare them with Halberg Rassy or with Arcona, not with a Salona, but then the price is not comparable too.
> 
> If that is what you want and have the money for a Solaris or a IY probably you will have a boat that will give you great pride to own and a very beautiful and fast boat.
> 
> Back to the Salona 38, the boat can be ordered in many configurations but only a top one will be able to compete with the IY 10.98 in regatta terms. The difference in price will not be so big but will be still substantial.
> 
> The Salona 38 is a bigger boat (more half a meter) and for the pictures, it seems that you can notice that on the interior. The Salona 38 will be faster than the Solaris 37 and will offer a great price regarding the quality. The Solaris and the IY are not build to a price, or at least that does not show, they are perfect and perfection does not comes cheap
> 
> *MOVIE SALONA 38:*
> 
> Neue Salona 38 im Schwerwettertest - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin
> 
> I don't understand what the J 111 has to do with any of these boats. The J 111 is much of a racer with an interior that will only provide a very spartan cruising. Anyway to race a J111 you need a lot of experience and a crew. Have you been sailing and racing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo,

We are in hibernation during winter. I have been looking for boats but the great Lakes have very limited option as far as more modern designs. Only boats here on somewhat similar style are the Js and some mid 2000s C&Cs(out of budget and not sure I'd want one). I've been crewing on different boats and has moved up to deckwork on symmetrical kites. As far as boat hrs there's no problem coz I do not miss a race night or regatta although I wished I could be steer more ithink I can handle 30-35 ft no problem. Looking more for performance cruisers that's easy to shorthand since I prefer to race on other people's boats

My budget is 50k so a small comet 26 would have been perfect. But I also look for some boats in the future since I got a house already and is only interested in investing on a boat for the rest of my life. In other words, I am not interested in saving for anything else.

As for the comparisons with the Js I was just making a point that for example the J108 is about the same price for a performance cruiser but doesn't look quite as good as the 10.98. It begs the question as to why? Is the quality not as good for the 10.98 or is it the j108 is overpriced? You've been raving about the Salonas, would be interesting if they have it in N/A.

It is nice to go on the website of Italia yachts because they have a lease calculator so yes its within reach


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## PCP

*Dufour 36p, Salona 38*



Chimbatete said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Since these boats are not found in NA you made a point of reference to the Dufour 36P (which is a good boat) and say you'll take this over it (whatever reasons).
> 
> Now how would you compare this boat to a Salona 37 (or the new 38) for example? As far as quality/perceived performance in general?
> 
> I ask this because this is a very attractive boat and I see that its possible to have it sail away for $225k which is less than a new J111 here by quite a bit with a much better interior and cockpit (unless my eyes are mistaken).
> 
> Just want to get perspectives.


I have been inside the three boats you mentioned but only sailed the Salona 38.

The J111 as I said it is a faster boat but demands a crew to be sailed fast and it is the less appropriated from the three for solo sailing even it that is possible, but its performance will be much reduced because you will not be able to exploit the boat potential alone. It happens the same regarding the two other boats but in a lesser manner. The Dufour and Salona are less nervous boats and boats more easy to sail.

Regarding cruising the Salona 38 and the Dufour 36 performance have nice interiors but in what regards cruising the storage space of the Salona has no comparison: It is much bigger. Not only the boat is bigger has it has cabinets on the Saloon and a proper storage space on the cockpit, one really good for a 38ft boat, even a pure cruising one. Regarding the J 111, it is much of a race boat with an interior to match. It only can be used for cruising in a very spartan way.

Regarding sailing the Salona is a very good boat, specially upwind and on the up scale versions a boat that has proven competitive at the World ORCI championships, fighting for the first places.

I am quite sure that the Dufour 36p is also a great sailing boat, all tests that I read indicates that. It seems that it is a specially easy boat to sail with a great downwind stability and also good upwind. As you know the boat won this year European boat of the year contest on the performance category so I am sure it is a great sailing boat. It is impossible so many experienced testers to be wrong






Regarding racing it is a bit to soon to know how the boat is going to perform in handicap racing. Personally I find it a bit on the heavy side but I can be wrong. It may well be a winner. It depends on how well the boat will be able to sail to his rating.

Regarding comparative real speeds between the Dufour 36 and the 38 I have to base the information on the 37, even if the 38 comes with more modern and fast keels and ruder (but shares the same hull):

It seems that a top Dufour 36p with a carbon mast and a 2.20m Keel is faster than a basic Salona 37 with an aluminum mast and a 1.98 keel (the old one, not the one with a torpedo):

http://www.ffv.fr/ffv/web/pratique/habitable/OSIRIS/cartePDF.aspx?num=16013

http://www.ffv.fr/ffv/web/pratique/habitable/OSIRIS/cartePDF.aspx?num=7258

But slower than a pretty much standard Salona 37 with a 2.25m draft.

http://www.ffv.fr/ffv/web/pratique/habitable/OSIRIS/cartePDF.aspx?num=14821

I know that Salona (Red Zeppelin) it is a charter boat so you can imagine that it is not a up scale boat. It has just the performance pack.

You can see that up scale Salonas 37 (IBC?) even without carbon mast are way faster ( 2.35m of draft):

http://www.fgvela.com/certificadosorc/rating2012/orcinternational/E8440_090312.PDF

http://www.avomeripurjehtijat.fi/mittakirjat2011/L11399.pdf

I have tried to find out the ORC file of Lenco, that had made 3thd on the World ORCI championships but I could not find it. That one was a IBC version with carbon mast and its rating should be higher than any of those.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Dehler 38*

And talking about other interesting sailboats of about that size, the new Dehler 38 on a nice movie by yacht magazine:

*MOVIE:*

Geburtstagsgeschenk: Dehler 38 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

The song says in Spanish " que bonito", how beautiful and they are right, it is a beautiful boat on the interior and on the exterior. The boat seems also very fast and moves through the water with grace.

To be frank I just hate that big white transom. Nothing wrong for me with wide transoms but closing them with a vertical white surface just makes them look ugly and fat. If they are left open they would not be a model of beauty to my eyes but would not be ugly.

Perhaps it is just me because some brands seem to have opted for this solution (Dufour and Dehler).

Regarding price and compared with a Salona 38, one of these in a basic version would cost about as much as a Salona 38 top version, I mean epoxy hull, performance rig and lead keel.

..


----------



## daviid

Hi Paulo

That Dehler is a beautiful boat!

I went to the Croatian boat show in Split today. Very low key, big Hanse presence, and no Salona !!? Lots of rumours ...

I had a look at the Jeanneau 379, the only one of display and have to say that I really liked her. The quality seems to have gone up. All Harken deck ware, with Selden mast, boom and blocks, properly sized, decent bow roller. Very high quality interior. I think they will do well. I compared the quality on the j379 to a new Beneteau Oceanis 41 and have to say that I felt the Jeanneau was a cut above. That is not to say that I didn't like the Oceanis 41.

Cheers

David


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## PCP

*Chalmers study on bulbed keels.*



Anders B said:


> My conclusions from the three Chalmers investigations are:
> The first conclusion is that maximum thickness of the bulb must be placed well back from maximum thickness of the fin. Otherwise an extended lowpressure area is generated on the suction side (with contributions from both the bulb and the fin) that causes flow separation. Loss of lift is obtained and a really bad keel from the hydrodynamic point of view is obtained. Two T-keel designs were investigated, one with coinciding maximum thicknesses of the bulb and fin and one with maximum bulb thickness behind the rear end of the fin. The results clearly showed that the second one was best.
> 
> The second conclusion is the a flat bottom with sharp edges (chines) of the bulb is not a competitive design. A optimization was peformed where the shape of the bulb was allowed to vary from flat bottom (with sharp edges) to rounded. Rounded showed higher performance.
> 
> The Chalmers investigations were performed about 2 years ago, the results are public and should be known by serious designers (especially as Lars Larsson was the supervisor). Fixed keel design for recent custom yachts do not show an impact of this and my personal conclusion is that keel design is an _ad hoc_ thing.


After looking better at it I found some more interesting stuff.

As you know they have made the fin keel in lead while all others are made of cast Iron (for the same RM and draft). This of course creates a problem because being of lead allows it to have a much smaller volume and less drag and they make clear that this one is only used for comparison purposes but they use it anyway comparatively with the others and that allows us some surprising results:



The Cast iron bulbed keel nº4 was the best performer, surprisingly even better that the lead fin keel that I thing everybody would thought would gave better results (because it was made of lead). Probably it has to do with the superior lift of the bulbed keel.

This is amazing and shows that an old designed lead fin keel, the type that was used on performance boats a decade ago has about the same hydrodynamic performance (or even worse) than a modern cast iron torpedo keel, the type that is used in some modern mass produced cruisers like the Hanse 415.

Of course if they have used a modern performance keel with the foil in steel and the bulb in lead, the performance would be much better in what regards drag.

But we are only talking about hydrodynamic performance since all keels had the same RM. In reality lead allows with the same drag of an Iron keel a much lower CG and that in fact counts a lot more.

The other interesting point related with the last one is that all keels had a very similar performance and the differences in time on the simulated race were really very small. Those differences are important in what regards racing but I don't think that they are meaningful in what regards cruising, even performance cruising.

They don't say that but it seems to me clear that the one that was clearly outperformed was the Fin keel (non bulbed). Regarding this one they did not even try to make an Iron fin because it would have to be so thick that it would have a huge drag.

But I really don't agree with that point in the methodology: If all keels were made of lead the proportion in what regards drag and lift would be the same as if all were made of Iron. Why use a lead fin when all others are iron? This introduces distortions in all study when comparing the bulbed Iron keels with a lead fin.

The more important conclusion we can take is that a fin non bulbed keel is clearly outperformed in all situations.

Fin non bulbed keels were and still are used in top boats on handicap races at high level not because they are efficient but because they permit to obtain better results in compensated time...and that is sad

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New Bavaria 37*

On another thread I said that a new Bavaria 40 would probably come up soon with a new style on the the interior and on the outside, a better one following the trend they started on the Visions and on the Cruiser 56.

I thought that it would sense for then to use the hull of the actual boat since it is a good one, designed by Farr and that had proven well even in top match racing (with a special version with the same hull but lighter).

Well, it seems I was right. They are offering now the 40 and the 36 in a limited edition. I guess it is a limited one because they will stop to make those models

In fact it seems the first one it will be the 37. It looks to me the 36 hull or at least one not very different but I can be wrong since I could not find any dimensions neither a top view, but the news are good:

The boat looks a lot better than the previous 36, it maintains the 4 winches on the cockpit and two over the cabin (the Bavarias are the only ones that offer that on mass produced cruisers) and the front sail has a small car over the cabin and that means the possibility to go really close to the wind. It is possible that they can offer as an option a bigger car for a genoa over the cockpit.

The interior has the same type of finish and style we found on the 56 but I hope they correct that interior on the boat.

The cabinets look too small, they are not aligned with the ones over the galley the white surface is way too big (on the saloon) and the port hull too small regarding what is offered by the competition and regarding what most sailors want.

Anyway a big improvement in what regards looks over the previous boat that had a quite impersonal interior and looked fat on the outside.


----------



## PCP

*One for the girls.*

Some real sailing can save you a lot in fitness and gym classes. Look at the way Emma keep herself fit:






Just to look at her I am feeling tired

Emma is an American girl, and a very nice one I would say:


----------



## opc11

daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> That Dehler is a beautiful boat!
> 
> I went to the Croatian boat show in Split today. Very low key, big Hanse presence, and no Salona !!? Lots of rumours ...
> 
> I had a look at the Jeanneau 379, the only one of display and have to say that I really liked her. The quality seems to have gone up. All Harken deck ware, with Selden mast, boom and blocks, properly sized, decent bow roller. Very high quality interior. I think they will do well. I compared the quality on the j379 to a new Beneteau Oceanis 41 and have to say that I felt the Jeanneau was a cut above. That is not to say that I didn't like the Oceanis 41.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> David


Agreed! That Dehler 38 is BEAUTIFUL. Odd. I find myself much more attracted to boats with a modern styled interiors with a good blend of materials (wood, fiberglass, metal, etc.)......But I would not lean towards a house with modern styled interior. Go figure. .....i must be a gemini.


----------



## PCP

*Salona 60*



daviid said:


> ...
> I went to the Croatian boat show in Split today. Very low key, big Hanse presence, and no Salona !!? Lots of rumours ...
> 
> ...


Hi! David,

Last time I have heard about Salona they were doing great and were finishing this one:






But that absence on the Croatia boat show is puzzling so....what about those rumors?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

*Re: Salona 60*



PCP said:


> Hi! David,
> 
> Last time I have heard about Salona they were doing great and were finishing this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that absence on the Croatia boat show is puzzling so....what about those rumors?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

There was a suggestion that Salona were in trouble financially and that this had been the case for some time. I don't know how reliable this was. Could be speculation. Surely though you would support your own boat show in your own country?

I was wanting to see the Salona 35 and 38.

A difficult industry to make money in for sure

David


----------



## PCP

*Re: Salona 60*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> There was a suggestion that Salona were in trouble financially and that this had been the case for some time. I don't know how reliable this was. Could be speculation. Surely though you would support your own boat show in your own country?
> 
> I was wanting to see the Salona 35 and 38.
> 
> A difficult industry to make money in for sure
> 
> David


Hi David.

Unless they had a serious disagreement with the boat show organizers. That story of economic trouble is kind of odd since that boat show is not only in their country but in their home town so the costs of having boats there would be minimal. if you wanted to see the boats you could as well went to the shipyard that is in Salona on the industrial zone of split.

They have been recently (less than a month) in a boat show in France ( Port Camargue) with the 35 and 41 and for what I can tell the boats are selling well in North of Europe. Some months ago in Dusseldorf I meet and talked with Nenad, their sales responsible and they had plenty of commands.

Very intriguing in fact, but as you say it is very hard to survive with a strong competition and a depression in Europe.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Class40*

It finished some days ago the 40 class first real rof the year, the Normandy Channel Race and it was won...by a German boat with a mixed team (duo race) but with the skipper being German,the increasingly popular Jörg Riechers that was racing with the French Pierre Brasseur.

Class40, initially a French thing, as initially almost all Solo or short crew ocean racing, is becoming international with lots of new boats coming in. In that race there was sailors from New Zealand, Great Britain, German, South Africa, Norway, Swiss and US. Lots of women too. The French are still the majority but they are not alone neither they winning all the times

If you are interested in solo racing and particularly in 40 class racing here it is this year's program:

Class40 - Association skippers Class40 - Races

Being the big classics "LES SABLES - HORTA" and most of all the "TRANSAT JACQUES VABRE".

It would also be interesting to see if the interest of US boats in the American race is renewed or even increases, I am talking about the "The Atlantic Cup", that starts in Charleston (2013-05-12) and finish in Newport (2013-05-26).

Class40 - Association skippers Class40 - Home

In between some nice images of the delivery of one of the new class 40:


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## PCP

*Magnus Olsson died.*

One of the great sailors and a mythical figure on the VOR died suddenly. He was working as a coach for the girl's team on the next VOR.

an homage:


----------



## PCP

*A strange sense of humor, or the impossible race*

*MOVIE:*

Aak gegen X

I used to see those funny traditional boats, with their lateral swing keels, on the North of Germany and Holland but honestly I never saw thought they could go any faster: They are too fat, or at least I thought they were.

Now I understand why there are so many recovered and used as cruising boats.

Very interesting stuff...but an impossible race anyway


----------



## robelz

*Re: A strange sense of humor, or the impossible race*



PCP said:


> *MOVIE:*
> 
> Aak gegen X
> 
> I used to see those funny traditional boats, with their lateral swing keels, on the North of Germany and Holland but honestly I never saw thought they could go any faster: They are too fat, or at least I thought they were.
> 
> Now I understand why there are so many recovered and used as cruising boats.
> 
> Very interesting stuff...but an impossible race anyway


I would like to see the same race with simple dacron sails on the X... The Aak uses cotton...


----------



## PCP

*Lemsteraak, Duch traditional lateral boarders.*



robelz said:


> I would like to see the same race with simple dacron sails on the X... The Aak uses cotton...


I don't think they are using cotton sails on the Lemsteraak. In fact that boat is pretty much a racing Lemsteraak. Do you think I am kidding? They race the dam thing:
















and I am glad they do. In fact Dutch have an admirable naval tradition and they have made an wonderful job in preserving their old boats and traditional shapes. Many of those boats are very nice cruising boats and give excellent live aboard boats.






They are adapted to the swallow waters of Holland and besides their lateral boards (that work well since they are canted in the right direction an remain vertical with the boat heeled) they have other interesting characteristics for instance their bow and the almost flat hull:



That bow does not make you remember something from the modern racing world?

They are so popular that they made them of steel now:






Anyway, they are wonderful boats and sail well but they are not a match for a modern cruiser in what regards performance and that is not what they are about. They are about living and cruising with style a certain style that has its roots deep on the past on their naval culture and tradition. It feels good to live and cruise that way. I know, I had done that for a decade in a Portuguese traditional sailing boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

I know they race them, but usually with cotton sails due to class rules.


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> I know they race them, but usually with cotton sails due to class rules.


Well it seems that you know more than me regarding that. Maybe that is some sort oh high quality grade cotton. I had cotton sails and they did not fold like that but they can have some sort of waterproffing treatment that makes them behave differently.

As you know sailmakers can make sails with polyesters that look like traditional sails.

Maybe someone that speaks German can take any doubts about that. I am sure they reefer to that on the movie.

Regards

Paulo


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## robelz

A polysail would be as authentic as a new car at an oldtimer rallye... The Aak in the video has started a huge discussion wether the class rules are strict enough or not.


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## MrPelicano

opc11 said:


> Agreed! That Dehler 38 is BEAUTIFUL. Odd. I find myself much more attracted to boats with a modern styled interiors with a good blend of materials (wood, fiberglass, metal, etc.)......But I would not lean towards a house with modern styled interior. Go figure. .....i must be a gemini.


I have to concur that the Dehler 38 is a gorgeous boat, and jumped to the top of my list of dream cruising boat.

Until, that is, Paolo brought to my attention the IY 13.98 from Italia Yachts. Obviously in a slightly different class than the Dehler (i.e., €€ vs €€€), but with attention to detail that simply takes things to the next level. I also found myself instantly liking the aggressive, angular styling of the port lights, which adds to the boat's contemporary aesthetic.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to figure out how to find $416,000 (USD).


----------



## robelz

IMOCAs board of direction decided to use standard riggs and standard fixed keels on future open 60s...


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## PCP

*New IMOCA rules (Open 60 boats)*



robelz said:


> IMOCAs board of direction decided to use standard riggs and standard fixed keels on future open 60s...


I guess you got a wrong translation:

*The majority decision reached was an integrated solution, with a one-design mast and keel. The other elements of the boat must conform to the rules of stability, speed, length and construction materials. The boats will remain at 60 feet in length, with a bowsprit of 1.8 metres and the one-design keel must meet the specifications that were previously agreed, with particular note to the rule applying to a single piece of forged steel (Inox) for the keel blade*

Imoca - La classe IMOCA choisit son futur bateau, OSM annonce le programme des courses

There were already talks about this and I agree. less in what regards the masts.

That is the solution that most of the NA involved in designing those boats proposed. A box keel t equal to all the boats as a way to get faster information that can lead to more reliable keels. A single piece of forged steel does not mean that it is not a canting keel but that other materials, like carbon, titanium or welded steel foils cannot be used.

Regarding the mast, it will be not a standard mast in a sense that you can find it on the market but a one design mast, equal for all. Regarding that I have some more doubts. There were different solutions used and the reliability was not that bad. That will stop mast development. I hope they opt for a solution with the shrouds on the hull and not on those huge lateral arms.

Anyway they have to be careful because previous boats will be allowed to race as they were designed and they risk new boats to be less competitive.

Regards

Paulo


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## robelz

I see, I misunderstood...


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## PCP

*New interesting sail technology: Velacore*

No, it is not one of those exotic laminates that costs 3 times more than a normal sail and will last 5 times less, this thing is interesting and I cannot see that it would make a sail much more expensive and the advantages are for all types of sails and materials. Besides it comes in a kit and can be applied to existant sails.

Typical sail:



Velacore Kit addition:



I cannot post the movies:

Visual

Obiettivi

The performance advantages looks real on paper:

Prestazioni

and it makes sense:

Teoria

it comes in kit and can be applied to any existent sail:

Kit

All this seem to good to be true but I cannot find any holes in the theory. I can't see why it should not work.

Anybody has a say about this?

Home 2


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## PCP

*Elan 400*

Not a proper test except if we talk about the shipyard guys testing the boat, but some nice images of the boat on the water and some nice details:













some details: look at the size of those keel back plates 






more details, a very nice one, a bathing platform that allows the transom to be nicely designed, I mean look at how this transom look light when compared with the one from the Dehler 38 with his huge white ass (they are actually about the same size but the visual effect is dramatically different).






A nice interior even if with a smaller galley than the competition:






and I have already posted her the NA, Rob Humphryes, talking about the boat but that is so rare that I will post it again:


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## PCP

*great footage (Asso 99)*

Some great footage taken on the 2012 Tjorn Run, one of my favorite races. It is iraced around an Island in incredibly difficult coastal conditions in between lots of Islands and treacherous grounds. They have to carefully navigate the boat while going at full speed. Lot's of boats damage the keels on this race.






The boat is very good old design ( Asso 99 - 1983) by Ettore Santarelli and is racing among the first. It is a lake racer and I didn't know that they allowed trapezes on coastal races. They don't allow it on most. This is new for me. Maybe the Nordic guys around can shed some light about this?

And since we are talking about the Asso 99 let me post a famous and fantastic movie, the 2008 race in the Lake Garda. some think that a lake has always flat waters and easy sailing


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## Irunbird

Paulo (or anyone else with an opinion on this)- what's you lates opinion on the Ovni's? There happens to be one located for sale close to us that is a 435 model, and the broker is offering us a test sail (we're in no real hurry, though). I was reading on the boat design forum when you were pointing out some flaws back in 2005 and was wondering if you've changed your mind at all since then. I know of one other couple sailing one who seem to enjoy it for extended cruising, and they frequent the northern high latitudes as we are hoping to do before we get much older...

Ray


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## PCP

*Ovni 435*



Irunbird said:


> Paulo (or anyone else with an opinion on this)- what's you lates opinion on the Ovni's? There happens to be one located for sale close to us that is a 435 model, and the broker is offering us a test sail (we're in no real hurry, though). I was reading on the boat design forum when you were pointing out some flaws back in 2005 and was wondering if you've changed your mind at all since then. I know of one other couple sailing one who seem to enjoy it for extended cruising, and they frequent the northern high latitudes as we are hoping to do before we get much older...
> 
> Ray


Hi Ray,

In 2005...that was long ago, nice to know that there are sailors reading what I wrote 10 years ago.

I don't remember but probably I was pointing out that the Allures that appeared around that time was a better boat. Still think that, specially in what regards reserve stability (or a Boreal for that matter) but that if you have the possibility to chose a new boat. Probably today I would be a bit more moderate in my opinions. That comes with age. It is worth to point out that the OVNI is considerable less expensive then any of the other boats.

The OVNI are great offshore boats and its seaworthiness record is impeccable with smaller boats than the 435 doing extreme voyaging, on high latitudes.

Jimmy Cornell that had circumnavigated several times with different boats had done the last one with a 435 and considered that the best offshore boat that he had sailed and that guy knows one or two things about offshore sailing and offshore sailing boats.






As an used boat, if well cared, an OVNI 435 can be a a very good buy and a great voyage boat. You have just to see if you like the way the boat sail and go ahead.

You will have to learn (and to know) how to sail the boat in bad weather. That is not done the same way than with a full or fin keel boat. If you now what you are doing that boat is a very seaworthy one.

Maybe this posts are of interest to you:



PCP said:


> Since we are talking about beachable boats, here some nice Videos of an OVNI 365 sailing at 80º North:





PCP said:


> Well, that friendly discussion with Osmundl about the OVNI 395 performances can give the impression that I am saying that it is a bad boat or an uninteresting one. It is not the case and probably it was already time that we post here about an OVNI and from their line the 395 is one of the more interesting.
> 
> Aluminum centerboards are one of the French preferred options in what regards passagemaking boats and particularly the OVNI 435 was a sailing legend with many boats sold and an incredibly number of circumnavigations made.
> 
> These boats have changed the paradigm of centerboarders. The Dutch ones had almost 50% of ballast, the French ones have about 35% and that permits them to be much faster sailboats at the cost of a lower AVS (the 435 had 107) and a big inverted stability. Even so, the particularly good dynamic stability characteristics made them difficult boats to capsize (I don't know of any report of a capsized 435).
> 
> Regarding the many other French options regarding centerboarders, the OVNIS have an huge advantage: price
> 
> It is of no use for most, excellent boats like the Atlantic, if they cost so much that only very few have the money to buy one.
> 
> The OVNIS have democratized aluminum boats. Sure they have a somewhat rude look and some would not find them beautiful, but they are strong and well designed in what regards the thing for what they were made off.
> 
> You would not win races in one, but modern ones offer an almost equal performance as basic modern big production cruisers, except upwind where the performance is 5 to 10 degrees worse, as it would be on any non ballasted keel centerboarder.
> 
> As I have said, from the present line the OVNI 395 offers an interesting performance and qualities at a fair price, lower than any concurrence. He has already talked about the Allures 40, that I prefer, but it costs substantially more and the other options are even more expensive.
> 
> So, lets have a look at the OVNI 395:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough Osmundl?


And perhaps you can PM Osmundl about his boat. He was so enthusiastic about the performance of his OVNI 395 that I think he was a bit pissed for me saying that his boat was a great sailing boat but had not the performance of a cruiser racer. If you look a bit after the date of the last quoted post you will find a discussion about his boat and its performance.

Regards

Paulo


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## Irunbird

Thanks, Paulo- My wife is looking at the boat now (taking lots of photos, hopefully). If she likes it, then we may consider a sail, but it would be just for fun and I don't think the owners would be hip to that. We're still about 2 or 3 years away from buying. I'm all over the place in terms of experience, never having sailed a real ocean cruising boat-- my own is an Olson 30, but I frequently crew on a friend's Swan 56 and a bunch of J-boats. The option of buying a new Ovni is always a possibility, but also a used Boreal or Allures. 

Ray


----------



## PCP

*A classic beauty the William Fife schooner Adventuress.*

Sailing:








and now prepare yourself for a shock. What a contrast with that nice but rig and deck:






How Victorian


----------



## PCP

*Hydroptere :transpacific speed record attempt.*

I have posted that after their last year failed attempt at the Transpacific Sail record (they never leave California for lack of favorable weather conditions) Hydroptere had run in financial trouble for not enough sponsorship. I am happy to announce that they have solved the problem and they are back. They will attempt the Transpacific record again this year.

This record is specially important because after Hydroptere claimed the absolute sail record (beaten after that by a wind surfer and after that by Vestas) it remains by far the fastest sailboat of considerable dimensions and the only of the record breakers with offshore capability.

The development of those offshore capabilities are very important in what regards sail technology and boat design. That's why it is important the Hydroptere to be well and alive continuing his hydrodynamic, aerodynamic research.

"On Wednesday 17th April, in the Parisian workshop of the architect Jean Nouvel, Alain Thébault and his teammates Jean Le Cam and Yves Parlier announced the continuation of the ocean program for Hydroptere. In a few weeks, they will try to beat the record of the Transpacific crossing between Los Angeles and Honolulu.

Sitting side by side on an Air France flight, Alain Thébault and Jean Nouvel discovered that they had some similar ideas. Even if one of them is between the sea and the sky, and the other one on the earth, they have something important in common: the persistence and imagination in the creation of new concepts. It is in the large room of Jean Nouvel Design workshops that Alain Thébault and his crew members announced their imminent departure to California.

A year ago, Hydroptere was getting ready in the Mediterranean before being brought to California to try to beat the Transpacific record. As she arrived in Los Angeles too late to benefit from the favourable weather window of June and July, Hydroptere headed to San Francisco to continue her training and greet her fellows of the America's Cup. The French trimaran was the first to fly in the bay at over 45 knots. ...

This winter, Hydroptere gained two additional supports. The French investment company Capital Fund Management and the editor of driving assistance solutions Coyote System joined as official partners Lanson Champagne, the innovative companies CLIP Industrie and Atheos. "The budget of the record is almost complete. The project is still open to other partners who wish to join the adventure and get a historical record with us" told Alain Thébault.

Hydroptere is currently based in Alameda, east of San Francisco Bay. Thanks to Warren Fitzgerald and Jeff Mearing, the trimaran was lifted ashore by crane on Monday 15th April. She will receive a complete check-up before being launched in early May and then brought to Los Angeles where she will be positioned in standby for the record.

The Transpacific record

*From the end of May, the period of stand-by will start.* To fly over the swell from Los Angeles to Honolulu, the composition of the crew will be exceptional: Alain Thébault, designer and skipper of Hydroptere, Jean Le Cam, Yves Parlier and Jacques Vincent, his faithful fellows who hold together some of the best records of ocean racing. ...

.. "In June the position of the Pacific anticyclone is ideal because it provides the most direct route to Hawaii. The thermal wind is active in this season and we will quickly leave the California coast. Then we will surf the long Pacific swell downwind and we will probably have to make a gibe close the Hawaiian Islands "said Yves Parlier.

Pure speed and offshore records

After introducing the objectives of the Transpacific record, Alain Thébault talked about the future challenges of the team. Program: alternating between offshore records and pure speed. After the Pacific, Alain Thébault wants to focus on the absolute sailing speed record, a grail he had already won in 2009.

The engineers of the team are now working on the design of *a two-seater prototype whose objective will be to cross the average sailing speed barrier of 80 knots.*

"Thanks to the performance of Paul Larsen on Vestas SailRocket, sailing has entered the equivalent of supersonic era. The physical barrier of 50/55 knots has exploded. There is no more brake. Now we have to focus on an average speed of 80 knots with potential peaks at 100 knots, "said Alain Thébault. Anders Bringdal, the multi-titled Swedish windsurfer and long-time friend, will form the duet with Alain Thébault to pilot this new craft."

Very nice to see sail speed freaks from all sail disciplines to focus together on sailspeed records.

it seems that the Hydroptere will be maintained and developed for offshore records while a new smaller boat will be created to attempt absolute speed records: nice

Home :: L'HYDROPTÈRE - Alain Thébault

hydroptere sailboat to set transpacific fastest speed record


----------



## PCP

*new boat : Clipper 70 by Tony Castro*

Most if not all have already heard about the clipper race, a race that give the chance of amateurs to experience the emotions of ocean crew races in fast and big Ocean racers.

Clipper Race - Clipper 13-14 Race Skippers

Well, the problem is that the old Clipper 68, a 2004 Ed Dubois design is already a dated design.






That has changed. Welcome to the new Clipper 70, a design by Toni Castro, the most known Portuguese NA:

23m Clipper Raceboat | Tony Castro Yacht Design

Not a radical design but an adequate one, much more modern, faster and easier to sail downwind. Much more fun for the ones that will apply for a leg on this race, for sure:


----------



## robelz

First Pogo 30 is in the water:

Cruiser/Racer: Erste Fotos der neuen Pogo 30 - Yachten + Jollen | YACHT.DE

Paulo, what do you think, which keel option will be faster? I'd like to see a polar...


----------



## PCP

*New Pogo 30*

This is one of the boats that I was waiting with more interest and even so you have beaten me in what regards posting about it

This boat is so cute:













There will be two keel versions, a swing one and a fixed one:



And the swing keel is great but will make the boat a lot more expensive as well as more complicated. Can also come with a carbon mast or an aluminium one.

Full information here:

Pogo 30 | Chantier naval STRUCTURES, constructeur des voiliers POGO (site officiel) :: STRUCTURES Shipyard, construction of sailing boat POGO (Oficial website)

I think that this line of boats to Pogo will remain in the future has a major point in Jean Marie Finot carrier. It is truly amazing that he remains on top of boat design development at the age of 70. I think he also considers this line of designs one of his major achievements otherwise he would not have choose as his personal cruising boat a Pogo 10.50.

And do you know what he had made: just introduced some alterations on the sail plane to go faster

Note: That is it, I will go cruising for the summer in about 15 days so I really have to stop posting. I need more time to organize my life and sailnet is addictive. So I will stop posting anywhere in sailnet except here and I will restrict drastically my activity here to just some moments at night before I go sailing and then I will just post very occasionally. I will be back with more time in the fall (I hope).

In meantime you all are very welcome to post on this thread. Many recognize not only my work here but the value and quality of many contributors. This thread is about modern design and many here have modern designs and very recent sailingboats. Their information about their boats makes this thread a very useful tool for many while looking for information in what regards choosing and buying a boat.

Many do that, I mean buy new boats using the information on this thread and never post (I know of several cases).

I have a request: If this thread was helpful to you while choosing your boat, please post here after and share with us your impressions. Don't be shy, we all want to know about that and here we like all kinds of new designed cruising and racing boats, ones more than others.

For the ones that are usual contributors, please keep posting and the ones that have new boats, please deliver regular evaluation regarding your boat. sometimes time confirms our first impressions, sometime we find defects we were not expecting, sometimes the boat even turned better than we have hopped to for. I am sure we all want to know about that.

People around this this thread are mostly knowledgeable sailors, some very knowledgeable and that makes your reports on boats even more interesting.

I am specially curious about what Hannah (Steve) will find about his new Boreal 44. I hope not only a report but several. I wish you a good Atlantic crossing and fair winds.

To all, now that the sailing season is starting, fair winds..

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 35*

Salona 35 was tested by the very conservative British magazine PBO and they liked. Not very impressed with the interior but that is a boat used for racing all wrapped up in plastic and with a low price mahogany interior. They have nicer teak interiors as an option:


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 33 and 56 the new line.*

Some recent nice movies with the Bavaria 33. This one and the 56 are the two first models of the new series. I would say this one seems to sail pretty well and looks a lot better than the previous boat. The next boat to be produced along this line will be 37 and then the 40. We can have an idea about the next boats (I have posted already about the 37). The designs are by Farr.


----------



## PCP

*Sailing news:*


----------



## PCP

*Pogos unsuitable for cruising or voyaging.*

If you guys want to have some fun you can look in here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailb...bob-perrys-take-wolfenzees-dream-boat-17.html

I have been posting there but I give up

As almost all know Pogo are not my favorite cruising boats, I find them great for the trade winds but that is not what I do and I prefer boats more comfortable upwind at the cost at a more easy and fast downwind sailing.

Even so I am far away from deny the evidence that Pogos are very successful very fast cruising and voyage boats and that there are a lot of sailors for which they are the perfect choice. They are the perfect cruiser for some around here and the long waiting list shows that there are many wanting them.

Besides what concerns voyaging even on the ARC you can find Pogos and most Pogo sailors would stay out of the ARC while crossing the pond.

But evidence and reality seems not be be enough to convince most that on that thread sustain that the Pogo are completely inappropriate to voyage and are not able to carry the load needed for voyaging.... reality apart of course because they voyage and even the small 8.50 have crossed the pond many dozens of times

Meanwhile let's have a look at what the cruising Pogos are about:

*"Structures builds fast sailing boats for short-handed offshore sailing.

The team at Structures is comprised of people who are passionate about boats, both racers and cruisers, who have dedicated themselves over the past 15 years to the development and build of these pure modern and enjoyable sailing boats, accessible to all.

The design and development of our boats are "led" by racing:
the search for performance under sail over a very wide wind range, ease of use, technical and material reliability, safety, feel on the helm, stability under autopilot, balance under sail.
...
Pogos have won a significant number of offshore races including the Mini-Transat, the Transquadra, the Québec Saint-Malo, the Route du Rhum&#8230; We are proud of this, as we are of the hundreds of Pogos cruising trouble-free all over the world for the sole pleasure of their owners and their families and friends."*

Our concept | Chantier naval STRUCTURES, constructeur des voiliers POGO (site officiel) :: STRUCTURES Shipyard, construction of sailing boat POGO (Oficial website)






If you guys, the ones that charter boats, want to have a blast in one while cruising they are available in Greece, the 12.50 and the 10.50, here:

fastsailing.gr - Pogo 12.50 - European Yacht of the Year 2012! - News

.....


----------



## PCP

*Salona 35 and 38*



daviid said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> There was a suggestion that Salona were in trouble financially and that this had been the case for some time. I don't know how reliable this was. Could be speculation. Surely though you would support your own boat show in your own country?
> 
> I was wanting to see the Salona 35 and 38.
> 
> A difficult industry to make money in for sure
> 
> David


Hi David,

Maybe they were so busy making and selling boats that they had none to expose. I found these nice photos of these three delivered in Sweden days ago:

Two 35 and one 38. I thought you would like to have a look. Beautiful pictures, nice boats

Salona 35 + 38 [email protected]@[email protected]@offsite=true&lang=en-us&page_show_url=%2Fphotos%2Fblursailing%2Fsets%2F72157633370859822%2Fshow%2F&page_show_back_url=%2Fphotos%2Fblursailing%2Fsets%2F72157633370859822%2F&set_id=72157633370859822&[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@%2Fphotos%2Fblursailing%2Fsets%2F72157633370859822%2Fshow%2F&page_show_back_url=%2Fphotos%2Fblursailing%2Fsets%2F72157633370859822%2F&set_id=72157633370859822&jump_to=

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Regatta news: Nice sailing images*

In French but the images are great.

Some help:

That little cat sailed wildely was attemting the sail record around Corsica. They had a 3 hours advantage but they damaged the sail and had to give up.

The nice Open 60's images regards the alteration of the rules that I had already noticed here : basically the same mast and keel for all.

On the extreme series Alinghy is leading.

On the America's cup the last round was won by Oracle in match racing and by Luna Rossa on the regatta (all boats together).

enjoy


----------



## PCP

*Twin keel against deep mono keel.*

RM tested on the water the two keel solutions and the results were accordingly what had been previewed by Marc Lombard with the help of CFD studies.

We are comparing not only two different keels but two boats with different drafts, 1.65m for the twin keels and 1.90m for the mono keel. The results, has I have already said are amazingly good, considering the difference in draft. I don't now if with 1,65 draft a mono keel would have and equal performance to the twin keel and it would be very interesting to have that data, but we have not.

Twin keels offers other advantages as contributing to a slightly better comfort and sea motion as well as giving the big advantage of being able to beach the boat for cleaning the antifouling or repairs. All this at a very slightly cost in overall speed.

I have talked about some few tenth's of a knot, here you have the full story (the wind speeds are misaligned: the first one goes with the first boat speed)





These are the previewed results by Marc Lombard for the RM 1060 that real testing on the water showed to be accurate.

We can see that, as it was expected, the worst results are with very weak winds where drag assumes more importance and with smaller angles of heel. Close to the wind at 36º TW with 12K, with probably one keel vertical the difference is of only 4%. That means that on that situation, while the Deep draft mono keel boat is doing 6.76 the shallow version with twin keel is doing 6.5.

On most conditions and points of sails the difference is 1% to 2%. That, considering 2% and 7K will represent a difference of 0.14K. The difference is much smaller than between a boat with a fixed propeller and a folding one.

That explains why RM recommends the twin keel version and why almost all the French buy the twin keel versions. In France the concept is well understood, it is on the boats made to export that they sell more boats with mono keels. It seems that abroad they are more suspicious about their advantages


----------



## DiasDePlaya

The lost in VMG upwind is a lot for me, but for a cruiser probably is less important. And the option to beach the boat is very attractive for people who sail in large tides areas like the Chilean south.

High tide in Chiloe, Chilean south:










Low tide:


----------



## PCP

Nice place

Yes, but the VMG directly upwind is always small. I an happy with 4K. If you consider that speed and the average of 5% you will get a difference of 0.2K in an hour or 1K in 5 hours of cruising. On other points of sailing the difference is much smaller and dead against upwind many cruisers will just turn the engine on. Big difference to a racer but not much for a cruiser.

But we should not forget that we are talking about two different drafts, drafts with a 20cm difference and that is a lot. Put there a single keel with 1.65m and it seems to me the loss in performance would be bigger.

I would love to see a comparison between the mono keel and the twin keel both with the 1.90m.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## DiasDePlaya

PCP said:


> I would love to see a comparison between the mono keel and the twin keel both with the 1.90m.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Me too!


----------



## PCP

*VOR, great images:*

The Vendee is gone, the VOR is coming and just to anticipate the race, some great images from the past:


----------



## PCP

*Speed compassion list.*

To have an idea about the relative performance of two sailboats there are few things better than a good handicap list. The more reliable are the ones from ORC but there are others that provide good information, the problem is that they are not many times compatible and some times it is hard to find information specially in what regards older boats.

Blur has some great information regarding handicaps and I find this one specially good. They are IRC handicaps and the newer boats are not there but lot's of older boats including American ones. It is a very interesting one since it can be provided taking into consideration only speed and that gives an easier reading in what concerns other comparable sailboats and also by alphabetic order.

Regarding the one that is ordered by speed we can pick for instance a famous relatively fast and very popular old American sailboat, the Cal 40 (0.964) and take a look at boats with similar performance:

http://www.blur.se/polar/IRC_rating.pdf

It is surrounded by First 31.7, and Elan 31 and 333 but it is slightly faster than a Catalina 38 or a Jeanneau 37 with a swallow draft and about as fast as a Morris 46.

That is kind of amusing to see what a given boat compares in performance.

Here you can see that same list but by alphabetical order.

http://www.blur.se/polar/IRC_boats.pdf

Another good place to find information about the performance of more modern boats is the site of the FFA. They use different ratings and apparently they seem directly comparable with ORC numbers but they are not (unless converted), so in fact they are only comparable with themselves:

Federation Francaise de Voile


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 37*

Some days ago I posted about the new Bavaria 37 and said that it looked like the hull of the 36 to me...and that's confirmed. The boat looks much better but they maintained the Farr hull that is a recent one with good performances. They say that Farr had modified and improved the keel and the rudder but regarding to that we have to wait to see what they are talking about.





Regarding the competition in what regards this segment and size, it will come from the old but good Oceanis 37 and from the jeanneau 379 that is in fact a 37ft. The Bavaria is the narrower hull (3.67 m against 3.76 on the Jeanneau and 3.92 on the Oceanis) and also the heavier (the Jeanneau is 300kg lighter and the Oceanis almost 500kg lighter). All boats have about the same draft: 1.90/1.95m.

I don't know if Farr is going to add a torpedo keel (like on the Hanse) but probably not since they give a ballast of 2080kg and that even with a bulbed keel similar to the ones that have the Jeanneau and Oceanis, is already a lot, giving it a better B/D then any of the other two by a good margin. 30% of B/D ratio considering the keel draft and type is already near what some mass production performance boats have.

The boat is the narrower of the three and he had seen that the genoa/jib traveller is over the cockpit so I bet this one will have a very good upwind performance for this type of boat. It will also be the only one to offer 4 winches on the cockpit. It will be also the one that will sail with more heel.

Regarding sail area the Bavaria has 66m2, the Jeanneau 70m2 and the Oceanis 67.8m2. Probably the jeanneau and the Oceanis will be faster with lighter wind but on more demanding conditions the Bavaria will equal or better the performance of the other two, specially upwind.

The big problem of the Bavaria 36, that is a good sailboat was the looks. It seems that is resolved with the 37. Regarding market we will have to see if buyers will prefer beamier boats to more narrow ones and how good will be the improvement on the interior.

The price, as usual, it is a very nice one: 109.361,00 € including German 19% VAT.

That is amazing. They offer the 37 at a close price of what costed me my Bavaria 36 back in 2002.


----------



## PCP

*Sig 45*

Someone was talking in another thread about cats to be floating condos. Maybe but that's nothing wrong about it most of them sail pretty well downwind, that is what the trade winds are all about, faster than anything but a performance mono-hull, condos or not. But there are some that are not definitively condos.

I even like the cozy interior of the SIG 45, the huge cockpit but most of all the way it sails Not a match for a 50ft performance monohull: It will just fly away, but while on the fast solo typed monohull you can leave it at a good speed on autopilot and sleep, on this one I would make sure that the boat would carry little sail at night on autopilot...but during the day on the right conditions, what a pleasure to fly a hull

Some movies that I had missed some months back:


----------



## PCP

*Absolute world circumnavigation record, the movie:*

A 15m movie that can give you an idea of the conditions aboard Banque Populaire and what it takes to do that, besides a great boat.

Sometimes they go well over 40K

What a great captain!!! I Believe it is the most complicated and difficult job: To take that hugely powerful boat as fast as possible without breaking it and that for 45 days, storms and all. Chapeau to Loïck Peyron that at the age of 54 continues to be one of the world's best skippers.

Now he is using is talents on the America's cup (Artemis Racing).





Trophée_Jules_Verne_-_le_film _por multihulls-world_


----------



## Faster

Great video... Wonderful how the French embrace their sailing heroes.


----------



## PCP

*Katana*

Thanks Faster, I guess they are not different than the Americans on that, they just like more sailing and liking it is also understanding the scope of the achievements.

Continuing to talk about cats: Everybody knows that Lagoon are the paradigm of the condo cats and also the less expensive...but have a look at the number of Lagoons doing the ARC and we will found out that they are condo cats but also quite capable for voyaging on the trade winds.

If we consider a cat not very expensive, not very big, not so much condo like, but with a great interior, good sailing performance, the name of Katana comes to my mind. Let's see why:
















Of course ,they are still a lot more expensive than a fast monohull with the same offshore capability and pay double at the marinas.


----------



## PCP

*Aeroyachts*

But if you really want to have a real floating Condo, you can have a very fast one, i mean one that in the right conditions can go over 30K. You just have to have the money for it






This is not some crazy dream, not with the names associated with it: As designer, Pete Melvin of Morrelli & Melvin and has builder Luca Bassani of Wally Yachts. So if you decide to have one of those, please invite me for a ride

110' Aeroyacht catamaran - Aeroyacht

http://www.aeroyacht.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Manifesto.pdf

Yes, I am convinced about the advantages regarding mega-sail yachts and besides the boat is beautiful. I would have exchanged quickly the Maltese Falcon for one of these and I bet the Falcon is more expensive.


----------



## PCP

*Elan 400, the movie.*





"I like the way she moves"...I really do with its very narrow entries and moderated beam, all brought back. The boat hull is a bit misleading, at least in 2D. Looking at the hull from above we would say: another downwind boat but the boat is not really that. Yes that transom will allow an easier downwind sailing but it will also allow a considerable heeling before the chine enters the water. This is a completely different hull than for instance a Pogo, a very interesting one and one that will have a good performance sailing upwind.

I like the way those two rudders and big D/B ratio hold the boat in a gust. Look at the movie (1.10) the boat heels with gusting, the guy does not correct and the boat continues straight as an arrow. In fact he over compensates after that.

For me the bigger and only big defect remains: They have now a 2 cabin version but instead of putting that galley with a good size for cruising and given it a good storage they have opted to make bigger the other side of the boat and make a king size head. Not much sense to me, the one on the three cabin is good enough....but the galley remains inadequate for extensive cruising in what regards space and storage, at least if we compare with the competition, I mean the Salona 41 and Dehler 41.

It is a pity because the interior is very nice, cozy and with good ideas in what regards space polyvalence.

*Great movie*:

Ausgewogen und rasant: Elan 400 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

They have tested the boat. For the ones interested it will be on the next edition of Yacht magazine. For what I could understand they loved the boat.


----------



## PCP

*Sailing news.*

New AC Oracle, New maxi cat "Prince de la Bretagne", Open60: Great images


----------



## PCP

*Flying over the water: 32K new Moth record.*


----------



## PCP

*Top American mini racer, Jeff McFarlane, had a terrible accident.*

He was preparing himself for the next big Transat (1000Nm mandatory with the boat), he had a fast boat, been second on two important international races and took a big risk while making those mandatory 1000Nm.

He took the boat to the middle of a depression near Menorca. Maybe he was not familiar with the med where sometimes 35K are a lot worse there than on the Atlantic (the old Navy French sailors called the Med the ***** - "la garce" ).

Lost the mast, capsized, damaged the boat and broke a hand. He was recovered just before night fall by a Spanish helicopter.

The boat was rescued but without an extra help the chances to see an American top sailor winning the Big Transat will not happen. The boat needs expensive repairs.

A translated article in an Italian Magazine (Giornale de la vela)

*"During the navigation of 1000 miles in the Mediterranean that he needed for the qualification to the next Mini Transat, American Jeff McFarlane has risked big, running into a depression off the coast of Menorca with wind gusts to 35 knots. His Mini 6.50 (a prototype of Lombard) was capsized and lose the mast also damaging the keel.

Jeff, that we know very well in Italy because in March he participated in the Arciplelago 6.50 paired with Marco Nannini, and the Italian Grand Prix, with Andrea Fornaro, finishing in second place on both occasions, was rescued by a helicopter. It came out with a broken hand and with the feeling that he had been lucky ... *"

Giornale della Vela - Gli Speciali | Naufragio Jeff e il sogno spezzato della Mini Transat Durante la navigazione di 1000 miglia in Mediterraneo che stava affrontando per ottenere la qual
Jeffrey MacFarlane | Facebook

He says (translated from the French):

*" ... ". A few hours later, at lunch time, when the wind was blowing around 35 knots, under three reefs in the mainsail and small jib, the prototype had problems. "It all happened very quickly without having time to understand what was going on," "The mast fell and the boat suddenly was lying before going into a spin with two full turns. Then one of the elements that kept the keel box crushed my hand. "The boat has suffered failures in the deck, keel and mast. "I was reassured to see the boat still floated but everything was upside down with plenty of water to bail, said Jeffrey MacFarlane.

"I wanted especially to keep my mind busy and not to think about the damage and pain in my hand. "After issuing a Mayday, the sailor was busy rigging and securing the boat until nightfall.

As he prepared to spend the night on board a helicopter of the Spanish coast guard come down to him to pull him and taken him to hospital. The boat was recovered the next morning 15 miles from the island of Menorca. "I am disappointed because I was close to the goal," said Jeffrey MacFarlane us.*

Actualités Nautisme : l'actualité du nautisme au quotidien avec Figaro Nautisme

News | Oakcliff Sailing


----------



## PCP

*A row boat, a man and a dog trying to do the NW passage.*

If you think that those guys that go circumnavigating in 24ft sailboats are crazy, compare it with this guy

A dog? Poor thing I wonder were the dog pee and you know... sh*t. that should be a smelly boat Crazy idea I had ever heard in what regards boating. Off course the guy had to be rescued...but he had managed to find sponsors for his crazy project, I guess you can find a sponsor for everything.


----------



## PCP

*Beautiful boats:*

So beautiful has a true low board classic cruiser...only a Brenta. What I would call nice cruisers look fat and sluggish...and the really fat ones are not really around


----------



## knuterikt

*Re: Beautiful boats:*



PCP said:


> So beautiful has a true low board classic cruiser...only a Brenta. What I would call nice cruisers look fat and sluggish...and the really fat ones are not really around


Nice video, had not seen this one before, I'm sailing on one of the boats in this race 

This is from one of the worlds largest overnight races, 870 boats starting in 2012. The race goes from Oslo to Færder light house (Tristein) to Horten.









The nice green boat is Sira NOR 33, 8mR 
Owned and skipperd by the Norwegian King Harald

More about this boat here.
8 mR
This text is a bit old - the present King Harald restored the boat and it is now active in use again.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Beautiful boats:*



knuterikt said:


> Nice video, had not seen this one before, I'm sailing on one of the boats in this race
> 
> ....
> 
> The nice green boat is Sira NOR 33, 8mR
> Owned and skipperd by the Norwegian King Harald
> 
> More about this boat here.
> 8 mR
> This text is a bit old - the present King Harald restored the boat and it is now active in use again.


Nice. Small world and lots of sailors looking at this thread

I thought that the boat was called King Harald. Nice to know that the King is at the helm and what a nice helm, a royal one. Lot's of kings like sailing. The kings of Spain had an yacht and participated in regattas (one of the more famous Spanish races is the "King's cup" (Copa d'el Rey).

Panerai Classic Yachts Challenge: Mahon IX Copa del Rey de Barcos de Época

The last Portuguese king was an avid sailor and conducted a series of Oceanographic voyages (it was also an artist). His boat and one of his drawings:





So I guess we can say that sailing is a noble activity

Regards

Paulo


----------



## daviid

*Re: Salona 35 and 38*



PCP said:


> Hi David,
> 
> Maybe they were so busy making and selling boats that they had none to expose. I found these nice photos of these three delivered in Sweden days ago:
> 
> Two 35 and one 38. I thought you would like to have a look. Beautiful pictures, nice boats
> 
> Salona 35 + 38 Kullavik
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo

Thanks for these images. They are really beautiful sailboats
- great hull graphics
- love the carbon bowsprit
- not too crazy about the dark colored sprayhood on the S35. I prefer the lighter colored ones
- surprised that the gennaker/asymmetrical isn't masthead!
- beautiful transom design

What boats!


----------



## PCP

*Imoca (Open 60) promotional movie:*

Great movie:


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Beautiful boats:*



PCP said:


> So beautiful has a true low board classic cruiser...only a Brenta. What I would call nice cruisers look fat and sluggish...and the really fat ones are not really around


I loved the Brenta 42 Ren Glede helmwoman! Beautiful!! 

(Sorry, but my Latin blood sometimes betrays me)


----------



## PCP

*Corsair Dash 750MKII*

Besides J boats the other American sailboat Europeans love is the Corsair.

the Corsair Dash 750 was nominated for the 2011 European boat of the year cintest and even if it is basically a revamped Corsair 24 it is a very interesting daysailer, week end cruiser with a very good sail performance at a price lower than the ones proposed by Dragonfly that offer a better quality interior.

Not very good movies of it on the internet and the better quality one is from a German boat test:






and an American test sail:


----------



## PCP

*Foiling mania*

After the Hydroptere, the Moth and now the AC72, foiling is on the the rise. Just some look around...I know the last are not sailing but they are so funny that I could not resist: A true foiling mania


----------



## PCP

*Modern motor sailors: Albatross*

I will have a look at an European one and in another post a look at an American one. Regarding Europe if we ware talking about modern motor-sailors the Albatross comes to my mind.

They have a complete line they are not very expensive, lots of interior space, great outside views, beamy hulls, good tankage and an option of an engine a bit more powerful than what you would find on a mass production typical cruiser.

For instance the 40ft that seems particularly interesting to me can have 75hp. They offer also a very interesting sailing performance, similar to some mass market cruisers. The boat offers a huge stability not only due to the big beam but also due to an unusually big B/D ratio for this type of boast. The boat comes with a modern bulbed keel and a relatively big draft (for this type of boat).

The 40fter even offers a dinghy garage.

http://www.albatrossyachts.eu/catalogo40.pdf

http://www.albatrossyachts.eu/BV-Albatross 40.pdf

For what I can understand about the American market this boat at that price would make a lot of sense there.

They have a 35 a 37 a 40 and a 42ft boats.

http://www.albatrossyachts.eu/catalogo35.pdf

http://www.albatrossyachts.eu/Catalogo 20131.pdf


----------



## PCP

*Moody 62 DS*

The Albatross seems to share the concept of the Moody 45DS proposing smaller boats at an interesting price.

The moddy 45DS:






Moody have a new bigger boat, the DS 62.

These boats, including the Albatross are a lot better sailboats than the old generation motor-sailors.

there are many sailboats, specially old ones with a much worse performance. They share with the motorboats a kind of resemblance in what regards the interior disposition and the transition between deck and cabin:






That had already been tried by the French from Alliaura that on the Feeling 55 proposed even with two engines as standard. the Feeling 55 was a mixture of catamaran, monohull and motorboat. As a concept it was interesting but the French seem not have appreciated and they went bankrupt.


----------



## PCP

*Surfari 53, am American modern motorsailor.*

Yes, I know the name is pretty ridiculous and this kind of boats is not my cup of tea, but this is a very interesting and modern boat. If it is going to find a place on the heart of American sailors it is another story but it is what his designer, Ted Fontaine, an american NA more known to design classic looking boats believe. He believes not only on that but also says this would be the perfect cruiser for him.

He says about the boat:

*"In looking back on the past several years I have seen an increase in the building of very large sailing yachts. While it is interesting to learn of the success of the very top end of the sail boat market, the midsized, higher quality market still seems to be stuck in the doldrums.

Perhaps the soft market can be attributed to the fact that nothing we have seen could be called transformational or even unique. The offerings on the midsized yacht market all look the same and seem to cater to the same demographic groups of buyers.

While there are some very refined world cruisers and some progressive racer cruisers I could find nothing that captured my attention for the way I envision most people are utilizing their existing boats.

There have been many performance cruisers and motor sailors designed and built over the years, many with a lot of desirable features, but I have never seen a good looking, good performing, family-oriented, sailing lifestyle platform such as what we have created with the SURFARI 53.

Having witnessed a complete generation of sailors abandoning sail for power, I set out to design and build a boat that would be an answer to those who share the same needs as I do - be it a day, a week or a month of coastal cruising. I wanted to create a yacht with an emphasis on outdoor living, a living platform for both social and recreational activities, as equally practical as comfortable. I envisioned a roomy living platform when anchored and a comfortable sun-protected space when sailing. And I want it to be ALL ONE LEVEL!

Most importantly I wanted the boat to be fast. Leisure time is short and because the best locations to spend the day are often the most remote, I wanted a vehicle that would move fast under sail or power.

After nearly six years of a soft market, the time has come for something truly unique. The SURFARI 53 may just be the next "picnic boat" of this generation.

- Ted Fontaine"*











The boat has a modern hull with two rudders and a bulbed keel, should sail well even if I don't like the transom designed to sail with really minimal heeling angles and that will offer added drag to any considerable heel angle. The boat has a big tankage, and share the concept with other mixed concepts like the Moody 45 or the Feeling 55: without aft cabins, like the feeling purpose two engines and a interface beween cabin and cockpit similar to the ones in a motor boat.

http://www.friendshipyachtcompany.com/assets/Uploads/SURFARI-53-mini-spec.pdf

I don't find any pictures so I suppose none has been built. They are purposed by a yacht company that offers very different classical sailing cruisers, also designed by the Fountaine groupe, the Friendship yacht company.

Take a look at one of their nicer designs, the 53, a very beautiful boat, even if I find it that for a classic boat it is a bit beamy. Anyway I would prefer it to the motor sailor that Ted Fontaine seems to favor even if that one offers a much bigger conviviality, a more modern interior and probably even sails faster, at least downwind. Well, probably it is just me and my taste for sleek sailboats, classic or not.


----------



## Faster

The Friendships are gorgeous.. not doubt.

The Surfari??? In any kind of sunny weather that things going to be growing beefsteak tomatoes like crazy. I'd expect that entire 'house' (aka greenhouse) is going to have to be shrouded even though it's open-backed. In the concept drawings, at least, the forward panels don't appear to open... Not one for the tropics... Not a bad looking hull, though, is it?


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> The Friendships are gorgeous.. not doubt.
> 
> The Surfari??? In any kind of sunny weather that things going to be growing beefsteak tomatoes like crazy. I'd expect that entire 'house' (aka greenhouse) is going to have to be shrouded even though it's open-backed. In the concept drawings, at least, the forward panels don't appear to open... Not one for the tropics... Not a bad looking hull, though, is it?


Yes, I don't like the transom design (sharp angles on the corners) but the hull seems a fast one to me and probably the boat is an overall better performance sailboat than a Friendship of the same size and it is also a motorsailor with all advantages.

It is an interesting concept ( to me the "house" seems closed by sliding doors) and I agree in what regards green house effect. Even with modern materials that reflect most of the sun heat they would have to be running the AC all the time buy maybe that is not a problem, the boat is a coastal one and has obviously the tankage and space for a big genset. The fact is that probably rich guys, the ones that like motor boats, would prefer to do that and enjoy the global view anyway: " *an unique boat*".

It would be easy to transform that boat in an interesting offshore more eco friendly version and also one much more pleasing to the eyes, but that was not for what the boat was designed for: I bet show off is an important design criteria, I mean, in what regards to impress friends on "pick-nicks".

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*2013 Antigua sailing weak*

Some great images featuring some very nice boats:


----------



## robelz

Stunning!
Wauquiez Dayboat 9: Exklusives Überraschungspaket - Yachten + Jollen | YACHT.DE


----------



## robelz

I am a little bit confused: Will JPK deliver the 38 FC as a twin keel like they say on there homepage (http://www.jpk.fr/?titre=jpk-38-fast-cruiser&mode=voilier_jpk&id=440 "bi quille") or with a pivoting keel like they say in the PDF (http://www.jpk.fr/modules/kameleon/upload/Descriptif_38-GB.pdf)?

Paulo, do you think JPK will also build a 38 with more sail area (with a higher mast)?


----------



## PCP

*Jpk*



robelz said:


> I am a little bit confused: Will JPK deliver the 38 FC as a twin keel like they say on there homepage (JPK "bi quille") or with a pivoting keel like they say in the PDF (http://www.jpk.fr/modules/kameleon/upload/Descriptif_38-GB.pdf)?
> 
> Paulo, do you think JPK will also build a 38 with more sail area (with a higher mast)?


Jean Pierre Kelbert (JPK) is a fascinating guy and one of the more knowledgeable boat builders I know. He does not only build performance boats and racers from many years as he was himself and accomplished solo racer besides he is used to tailor made rigs to the needs of each top racer (solo) or crew.

He can not only make anything you want as he can give you valuable advice about everything that is sailing boat related. You will understand better your needs how they can be satisfied and the better options regarding the boat, keel and rigging options after talking to him.

He is a passionate guy and someone with whom it is a pleasure to talk too. If you are interested in the 38 or that kind of boat I advise you to contact him and go to Lorient to have a talk with him. Even if you don't buy a boat the talk what what you are going to learn from him deserves the voyage.

He will explain everything about the different keel options. I suspect that they are not making more /or any 38 with a swing keel due to extra costs. probably that will add 20 0000 euros to the boat price.

And if you go there, please post here what you have learned

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Wauquiez Dayboat 9*

Robelz, thanks for posting about it. It is a beautiful boat by Berret / Racoupeau . On another thread about cruising we were reaching the conclusion that many use their boats not for cruising but to day-sail and I was saying it was a shame because a cruiser boat has a lot of compromises regarding what is needed for cruising and the sailing boat could be a much more fun and enjoyable boat if not compromised that way.

The Wauquiez Dayboat 9 explains exactly what I was trying to say. It seems that the Europeans are getting clever in what regards their boat options. In fact many don't use their cruising boats for cruising (just for sailing) but the number of expensive top day-sailers like this one has increased dramatically on the last years and it shows they are getting better boats and more enjoyable sailboats for what they really like or can do and the way they use their boats.


----------



## robelz

*Re: Jpk*



PCP said:


> Jean Pierre Kelbert (JPK) is a fascinating guy and one of the more knowledgeable boat builders I know. He does not only build performance boats and racers from many years as he was himself and accomplished solo racer besides he is used to tailor made rigs to the needs of each top racer (solo) or crew.
> 
> He can not only make anything you want as he can give you valuable advice about everything that is sailing boat related. You will understand better your needs how they can be satisfied and the better options regarding the boat, keel and rigging options after talking to him.
> 
> He is a passionate guy and someone with whom it is a pleasure to talk too. If you are interested in the 38 or that kind of boat I advise you to contact him and go to Lorient to have a talk with him. Even if you don't buy a boat the talk what what you are going to learn from him deserves the voyage.
> 
> He will explain everything about the different keel options. I suspect that they are not making more /or any 38 with a swing keel due to extra costs. probably that will add 20 0000 euros to the boat price.
> 
> And if you go there, please post here what you have learned
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


My GF spent half a year in Nantes for a study exchange program and desires to go back there on vacation maybe next year. I told her, that the only possibility to go there is taking me with her and visit Jean-Pierre. I am so curious about this guy after reading what you say about him (and said often before as far as I remember). The 38 FC seems to be a little underpowered in light airs but otherwise a perfect compromise for me especially with the low draft twin keel.

Why isn't there any (real) test on this boat that is at least BOTY in France...? I did not even find a polar...

I am so grateful for you posting here. I learned so much the last months.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Jpk*



robelz said:


> My GF spent half a year in Nantes for a study exchange program and desires to go back there on vacation maybe next year. I told her, that the only possibility to go there is taking me with her and visit Jean-Pierre. I am so curious about this guy after reading what you say about him (and said often before as far as I remember). The 38 FC seems to be a little underpowered in light airs but otherwise a perfect compromise for me especially with the low draft twin keel.
> 
> Why isn't there any (real) test on this boat that is at least BOTY in France...? I did not even find a polar...
> 
> I am so grateful for you posting here. I learned so much the last months.


Thanks. It is for guys like you that I post. It is a pleasure to know that my passion is useful to others.

Regarding JPK, I had the pleasure of talking with many interesting builders, many passionate about what they are doing and always interested in hearing experienced sailors and their suggestions but with JPK is more than that: Not only he had received the experience of many top racers (solo and crew) as he is himself an accomplished solo racer so with him if you let him talk and say what you want, he is going to suggest you solutions that come from a huge personal and shared experience, that includes cruisers that like fast boats.

Not only you fell that he has pleasure in discussing that with you as he is willing to modify what is needed to fit the boat to your needs. He understand that is important.

Regarding test sails on the JPK 38 the boat has been extensively tested by the two main French sailing magazines. It was even elected boat of the year by one of them in an election that is a very curious one because it involve not only the magazine boat testers but plenty of readers. They all tested sailed the boat against many other sailboats (with 40k winds).

http://www.voilemagazine.com/2012/09/27/voilier-de-lannee-2013-le-podium/

http://www.voilemagazine.com/tag/voilier-de-lannee/

http://www.jpk.fr/modules/kameleon/upload/vm_38_2013.pdf

http://www.jpk.fr/modules/kameleon/upload/VV502-199.pdf

Regarding the boat having not enough sail area unless you are racing the boat and are a very good sailor, I am pretty sure that is not the case (regarding the sail area). Remember that today in light winds you sail with a code 0 or a geenaker. Anyway if you really interested in the boat, with plenty of time I guess JPK will be able to ask to a client to let you aboard to test sail the boat. If you are not used to these type of boats you should try it before you buy one to see if that is really what suits you.













Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Douarnenez and the traditional sailing boats*

Last year was party time in Douarnenez for sailors with traditional boats. Next Fête is in 2014. I always wanted to go there with my old traditional boat but the Biscay bay was probably too much for a 80 year's old boat not in prime condition

Temps fête Douarnenez - Temps fête Douarnenez

I have no more a traditional boat but I love them and one day I will be there in someone's boat. that is just a great ambiance.

Some movies of last year's Fête and some others with traditional boats all over Europe.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Wauquiez Dayboat 9*



PCP said:


> Robelz, thanks for posting about it. It is a beautiful boat by Berret / Racoupeau . On another thread about cruising we were reaching the conclusion that many use their boats not for cruising but to day-sail and I was saying it was a shame because a cruiser boat has a lot of compromises regarding what is needed for cruising and the sailing boat could be a much more fun and enjoyable boat if not compromised that way.
> 
> The Wauquiez Dayboat 9 explains exactly what I was trying to say. It seems that the Europeans are getting clever in what regards their boat options. In fact many don't use their cruising boats for cruising (just for sailing) but the number of expensive top day-sailers like this one has increased dramatically on the last years and it shows they are getting better boats and more enjoyable sailboats for what they really like or can do and the way they use their boats.


Time ago talking with four friends that own a 36.7, they are thinking to replace she by something bigger and they say that they lack interior space. But they have never sailed more than an afternoon on their yacht! I told them and just stared at me. I do not understand wanting a sailboat with beds, bathroom and kitchen have never used or will use in the future. It is much more logical to buy a daysailer that a cruise if you're just going to sail close to the yacht club. I am very interested in the Summit MD35.


----------



## PCP

*Brenta 60*



DiasDePlaya said:


> Time ago talking with four friends that own a 36.7, they are thinking to replace she by something bigger and they say that they lack interior space. But they have never sailed more than an afternoon on their yacht! I told them and just stared at me. I do not understand wanting a sailboat with beds, bathroom and kitchen have never used or will use in the future. It is much more logical to buy a daysailer that a cruise if you're just going to sail close to the yacht club. I am very interested in the Summit MD35.


There is nothing wrong in wanting to sail a faster and bigger boat if one has the money for that, what is funny is that some need false excuses to do that.

Regarding day-sailers or weekend cruisers there are some with 60ft and I guess that in what regards causing an impression to friends they will be as suited as cruising boats or more. Not that these babies will nor be able to do some racing and certainly they are a pleasure to sail

Look at the interior of the B56: A daysailer-racer that one


----------



## PCP

*AC: Just beautiful*






I believe that now many of those that thought that multihulls were a bad idea for the AC are starting to change of opinion


----------



## PCP

*Aegean regatta*

I have talked about famous races in a lot of places but missed Greece. One of the most famous there is the Aegean regatta, an ORC one. In August you can count with wind there and the region is beautiful (I will be sailing there this summer).

This year's edition will start in Lesvos, the Island where lived the a woman that would become hugely famous, passes by Limnos, Skyros and finishes in Skopelos.

Aegean Regatta 2013

Some nice images of some beautiful boats, specially this one






and lots of other nice boats:


----------



## PCP

*A J111 going fast*


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 38 sailtest.*






What can I say that I had not said? I like the boat and I was very impressed with the interior, quality and design, when I visited the boat in Dusseldorf. The movies show that clearly and Toby seems as impressed with it as I was.


----------



## PCP

*J 122, a favorite of mine.*

I was talking on another thread about the J122, saying that I like it a lot and that was one of the boats that fit my particular needs and tastes in what regards having a personal boat...and then saw that I never had posted here about it, only a generic post about J boats.

Probably that happened because the the boat had already some years and was not a new boat when I started this thread. But the fact is that even if the boat show a very slight age in what regards hull design and transom it is still a very fast and modern performance cruiser. One of the fastest, I would say. Probably if it was designed today it would be very similar to the J111, in what regards hull shape and transom, but the difference is really a very slight thing.

The hull is still very modern, the boat is very fast (continues to win races) and the quality of the interior is very good and addapted to cruising.

The J122 is a narrow boat, if we consider the average in what regards modern production. The beam is typical of a 36ft and that has not only relevance in the interior space and storage as it make it a very good upwind boat but tricky to sail downwind fast without a full crew. It is also a boat that will sail with a considerable heel because it has less hull form stability than the typical cruiser racer and relies on a big B/D ratio for stability. Of course, for that work the boat has to heel. The B/D ratio is 38%, on a bulbed keel with 2.20m.

The boat is very light (6670kg) can carry a lot of sail for the weight (80m2), has a narrow well designed hull, it is a stiff boat so no wonder it is fast. But in bad weather the boat can sail with very little sail (and make way) and his stifness and very good reserve stability contributes to make it a very good and safe offshore boat.

Regarding storage space, if you, like me, can live with the storage space offered by a 37/38ft mass production cruiser, than the J122 has the space that you need, specially on the 2 cabin version without the front cabin head.

The boat can also offer more storage on a removable back bench (that closes the transom). I don't like it but i guess some would want that option.

On the photos you see cabinets on one side of the boat and no cabinets on the other side. You can have it like that, without cabinets in the saloon or with cabinets on both sides. The tankage is not big in what regards water (172l) but it is not a problem to add more (option). Regarding fuel the boat sails so well and with so little wind that the one the boat carries (130l) will be enough for most cruisers that will like this boat.

Regarding price it is what it is expected: Expensive but not more than similar boats (in quality and high specs) like the Luffe, X yachts, Arcona or Grand Soleil.

A great boat that I believe it will be substituted by a new model on the next 3 years or so. At that time the price of the used boats will drop substantially and it will be the best time to buy one, if you have not the means to buy a new one now

J/122- World's Most Successful Offshore 40 ft Sailboat Class

J122 Voilier - A cruising pleasure and a regatta pleasure - J Composites


----------



## hannah2

Hi Paulo,

Sorry I have not been around much. We are really busy now on the boat and all it takes at home to go away for 5 or 6 years. We will be renting a house in Treguier for 3 weeks starting in early July then moving on board our Boreal.

I have a question, noticed in some of the pics that in France they use cranes instead of boat hoists on four wheels. Most of the world uses boat hoists as it seems a lot safer for boat and people involved. 

Could it be because of the large tides? Or are the facilities in Northern France just behind the times?

Hope all is well.


----------



## Faster

hannah2 said:


> I have a question, noticed in some of the pics that in France they use cranes instead of boat hoists on four wheels. Most of the world uses boat hoists as it seems a lot safer for boat and people involved.


Congrats on getting to the moving aboard stage.. must be exciting.. and maybe daunting at the same time.

re travel lifts... a few in Victoria this week might be using cranes.. did you see this??

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/99249-oops.html


----------



## PCP

Hi Steve!

When will the boat be delivered?

In meanwhile enjoy Brittany. I am sure you are going to love living in Treguier, it is a lovely town. Take the opportunity to cruise around, that's a great place Brittany: Saint-Malo, Paimpol, Lannion, Pornic and my three favorite, Mont Saint Michele, Quimper and Locronan. Quimper and Locronan are central in the Celtic tradition.

Britons love beer and they have incredibly good traditional beer. You will not find it in restaurants. Try this place in Locronan:

Photo La maison des 100 bières bretonnes... la bo (...) - Détour par Locronan - Locronan, France sur Vacanceo.com

They have an incredible collection of traditional beers (1L bottles), around 100 different brands, and I am not talking about factory made beer. If you like beer you are going to love it.

Regarding travel lifts, they have them on the Atlantic coast too but those big tides make sometimes a crane more useful.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

PCP said:


> Britons love bear and they have incredibly good traditional bear. You will not find it in restaurants.


Of course not, Paulo, not only are bear almost extinct in France (most likely, because the French love them), but hunting them is illegal. Then again, they also love boar, I guess it is a tad less greasy. It really takes a lot of beer to wash down a bear. Especially, if it's "factory made bear"..... 
On another note, the J122 is a nice compromise for those who love to cruise fast, I just wish that the draft was less, but that would obviously change her performance.


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Of course not, Paulo, not only are bear almost extinct in France (most likely, because the French love them), but hunting them is illegal. Then again, they also love boar, I guess it is a tad less greasy. It really takes a lot of beer to wash down a bear. Especially, if it's "factory made bear".....
> ....


By the way they are managing to save the bears from extinction with a little help of Slovenian cousins, I mean the bears, not the French. They live on the Pyrenees, on the Spanish and French side and they can be found in greater number in Cantabria. I saw them some years back while cruising with a motorcycle there.

Well, I like bears but like more beer. I leave the bears to you and I will drink the bear

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

The AC has its first victim: Artemis capsized in San Francisco Bay and Olympic champion Andrew Simpson died.

News Story


----------



## PCP

*Ac*

Yes, there is a thread about it. Really sad.

Probably this has been the AC where the boats have suffered from the beginning a bigger technological advancement. AC is more about that than anything else but the size of these boats, stability issues typical of multihulls and pushing the boundaries at 40k, makes them very tricky to sail and sometimes, it seems, dangerous even so it seems that in this case it was not a stability problem:

*"Preliminary reports indicate Artemis's boat didn't capsize because the sailors were pushing too hard or made a mistake, as was the case with Team Oracle. The problem was with the boat itself, either faulty engineering or faulty construction. The boat simply broke apart under sail, folded, then flipped. The Artemis boat has had a history of cracking and problems with the carbon fiber used in the twin "beams" - the two girders that lash the two narrow hulls together. The boat had been in and out of the shed numerous times in an attempt to correct those problems. Today, however, the forward beam - the girder in front of the sail - gave way during a practice run. The two hulls, no longer connected, began sailing in slightly different directions. This caused one hull to snap just forward of the aft beam, and the mast, held up by high-tension rigging connected to the front of the hulls, simply fell over. The boat began to cartwheel, ultimately trapping Simpson underneath and drowning him.

The Oracle crash last October happened in much worse conditions, and in much rougher seas. The team was risking a turn in a twenty-five knot wind, with an ebb tide that was running at six knots."
*
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/05/americas-cup-crash/

A capsize at speed or a broken boat can have nasty consequences at 30k and that's the second one. I don't really know what to think about this but if there is another one probably something has to change. Or maybe not, maybe this dead was just bad luck. When the ORMA raced the grand prix series there was capsizes and nobody died.


----------



## PCP

*Tall ship on a storm.*

And changing subject to old ships: Fantastic video on Yacht magazine about the
voyage of tall ship "Beijing" around Cape Horn. If they had Gopro at that time It would be an incredible one, as it is, using old and big equipment it is just amazing how they managed to get these images:

*MOVIE:*

Mit der "Peking" rund Kap Hoorn - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

The bigger problem on storms in what regards ship safety at that time was the boat roll and looking at it....is just frightening as it is the conditions those guys went up to the top of the masts.


----------



## PCP

*Mini racers : Mini Fastnet*

Some great images of the last Mini Fastnet:


----------



## hannah2

Thanks for the tips on bears/beers. I will drink those beers as morning breakfast as they sound stout and wholesome, better than cold oatmeal! It will be Gin and tonics for evening sun downers with the many Boreal owners who will be in town while we are there. And I'm sure we must drink a little wine along the way to be polite. " Life is not a practice run it is the real thing." So we work hard and play hard, life is good on most days. Oh did I mention fresh Brittany seafood? "OH La La" 
Sounds like we will be able to move on the boat about July 15th, somewhere in that week.

Cheers


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> ... Oh did I mention fresh Brittany seafood? "OH La La"
> 
> Cheers


Not a great fan of that one. Maybe you can skip fancy restaurants and find someone that really now how to prepare the fish. They eat it always with a white sauce and the thing tastes always the same. For eating fish I never found better than Portugal.

regards

Paulo


----------



## Edward3

Good post on the J/122
Typical Johnstone design being narrow and light. Well put together with all the go fast systems on board. Sails well to her numbers and usually write up there with the other fast 40's. I'm talking King 40 and more. Scarce boat to find used, when you do they are dear around $350K loaded.


----------



## hannah2

Paulo,

No the eateries in Brittany are not so good, maybe too close to the other side of the channel. But there is a little fish monger in Treguier with a beautiful display one of art and fresh seafood to die for. Every time I'm town I go to see him just to look at his display and now we will do are own cooking. Did I ever tell you I'm the master of North Atlantic sea food? No sauces, no foolishness, just what is needed to give the flavor of the beauty of the soul, maybe sole. 

On a kinder note they do have a good Pizza place in Treguier, fresh veggies and other toppings, very nice thin crust and good cheap house wine just right for a long lunch.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

PCP said:


> Not a great fan of that one. Maybe you can skip fancy restaurants and find someone that really now how to prepare the fish. They eat it always with a white sauce and the thing tastes always the same. For eating fish I never found better than Portugal.
> 
> regards
> 
> Paulo


This is because you didn't visited Chile yet!


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> This is because you didn't visited Chile yet!


 I like the wine, don't know about the fish but I take your word on it. Regarding the fish here the best and bigger ones are very expensive and even so they send it by air mail in special containers for the best restaurants in all world, from New York to Japan. I found that some years ago and I was really dumb struck. What kind of world is this where there are people dying by lack of food while others special deliver fish by airplane across the world to satisfy the taste of some guys?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1360*

I have talked a lot here about the RM 1260, European Family boat of the year but very little about their new model, the RM 1360.

Like the 1260 the RM 1360 is heavily based on a previous model (1350) and is just a better, more sophisticated and faster voyage boat.

This kind of voyage boats based on solo ocean racers hulls have been developed by several NA, the same that designed and developed Open 60's and class 40's for solo sailing and among them Marc Lombard. It is him that designs the RM line since the start many years ago.

The advantages of this type of hull shapes relates with an increased stability and a much easier sailing in what regards downwind sailing. The boat can safely go faster on autopilot with a lot of sail and the roll is very diminished. It sails with less heel and provides a very stable platform. These characteristics make the boat very adapted to sail and voyage in the trade winds with a very reduced or solo crew.

These hull shapes were developed to make possible solo sailors to master very powerful boats. More narrow hull shapes forms in absolute terms are faster but impossible to be mastered by a solo or short crew when sailed fast (while racing). It is understandable why they are used on fast cruising and voyage boats that are designed to be easy and sailed by a short relatively inexperienced crew.

This boat can have a twin keel with a draft of 1.95m and a mono keel with a draft of 2.45m. The performances are not very different and in some points of sail are just close to 0 so in fact the Twinn keel is much more appropriated for cruising.

This boat will be fast, light, with a big loading capacity and plenty of interior space and storage. The tankage is also big. It can be steered from the inside with the help of a joystick. It will also have, like the other RM, a big stability, lots of power and a good reserve stability.

The RM can have a cutter configuration for easy management of sails.

The boat can be beached (twin keel) for repairs or clean the hull and is made of marine plywood and epoxy, as all RM. It is easy to repair everywhere.

There are no perfect boats for anything but this one will satisfy the needs of many long range cruisers, including some that like to sail fast.

A very nice boat in my opinion, probably the best looking in RM line.


----------



## PCP

*Artemis AC 79 accident*

Contrary to what It was said (and I had quoted) it looks that the boat did not break up, at least before a nose dive, a similar accident of the one I have posted some posts before with an IMOCA trimaran.

Some movies showing a completely destroyed boat (it was brand new one) and the explanations about the sad accident itself:


----------



## PCP

*Beauty*


----------



## DiasDePlaya

PCP said:


> I like the wine, don't know about the fish but I take your word on it. Regarding the fish here the best and bigger ones are very expensive and even so they send it by air mail in special containers for the best restaurants in all world, from New York to Japan.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Here is the same. Chile is the second salmon producer behind Norway.


----------



## PCP

*J 105*

We have talked a lot about Jboats lately, the American boats that the European like more than the Americans

Here you have a great footage of a J 105 very well sailed with a short crew:


----------



## PCP

*Collision Mare with a fishing boat.*

One more collision of a fishing boat with an Open 60, this time the Mare of Jorg Riechers. Jorg was training and had a full crew on the boat, it was night and they tried to avoid a fishing boat *without lights* or watch, even less AIS. Too late, they were lucky in not losing the mast. The Fishing boat run away without helping.

The talented German skipper that has for the first time a Open 60 saw his dreams very close to an end, he was very close to have the boat destroyed.

After many victories in mini racers and class 40, he is going to race the Barcelona world race with it (circumnavigation).

mare racing team


----------



## PCP

*Palma Vela 2013*

More beautiful sailboats











And some older spectacular images:


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: J 105*



PCP said:


> We have talked a lot about Jboats lately, the American boats that the European like more than the Americans
> 
> Here you have a great footage of a J 105 very well sailed with a short crew


I can personally attest to the offshore virtues of the J 105 for short-handed sailing, having raced one, doublehanded, from San Francisco to Hawaii in the 2000 West Marine Pacific Cup Race. It does have a few limitations, particularly in one-design (_montotype_) configuration, on long, downwind races - it needs a symmetrical kite option for VMG running, and multiple headsail options. It can also be a wet boat in big breeze and waves. But it's extremely well-behaved and stiff, even without crew weight on the rail.

But a fine boat, lack of headroom notwithstanding.


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## PCP

*Re: J 105*



MrPelicano said:


> I can personally attest to the offshore virtues of the J 105 for short-handed sailing, having raced one, doublehanded, from San Francisco to Hawaii in the 2000 West Marine Pacific Cup Race. It does have a few limitations, particularly in one-design (_montotype_) configuration, on long, downwind races - it needs a symmetrical kite option for VMG running, and multiple headsail options. It can also be a wet boat in big breeze and waves. But it's extremely well-behaved and stiff, even without crew weight on the rail.
> 
> But a fine boat, lack of headroom notwithstanding.


Thanks for posting we all appreciate your insight.

In fact is amazing that a boat narrow as the J 105 and with a transom hull design maximized for upwind sailing can be ocean raced downwind with a crew of two for many days. That does not only say very well about the boat balance and design but also about the crew. Chapeau to you

I have some questions: Downwind could you leave at speed the boat on autopilot?

Do you have sailed with short crew boats more adapted to short crew or solo sailing and if so can you comment on the differences, specially going fast downwind?

Regards

Paulo


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Palma Vela 2013*



PCP said:


> More beautiful sailboats


That _Spirit of Jethou_ is one wet boat offshore (and inshore, for that matter). Noticed that for much of the time the helmsman was the only person on deck not wearing a PFD. Didn't see a harness or tether, either. Interesting, given how far offshore the boat appeared to be.

Every time they buried the nose going downwind I found myself wondering if the owner should give David Raison a call when it's time for a new boat. Those are precisely the conditions where his scow concept would pay some dividends. Juan K applied a similar approach to his VOR design, and we saw how that turned out.

Great footage. Makes me want to be offshore, even on a boat as wet as _Jethou_, particularly if the owner is springing for that handsome Gaastra gear!


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## MrPelicano

And while I'm in posting-frenzy mode, let me take a minute to express my sincere thanks and appreciation to Paulo and the other posters in this, my favorite SailNet forum. Believe it or not, after finding this forum, I started on page 1 and read through all 400+ pages, over several days, until I got caught up. Can't begin to say how much I learned, along the way, and how many images and videos of beautiful boats, in exotic locations, engaged in terrific sailing I enjoyed.

Of course, the process of choosing a performance cruiser has now become even more difficult than before, since my attention was drawn to the Dehler 38, the Elan 400, the JKM designs, and others. Don't know how I'm going to settle this problem, but am certainly finding the process delightful.

So, thanks again and keep feeding us a steady diet of amazing boats.

Best!


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## MrPelicano

*Re: J 105*



PCP said:


> Thanks for posting we all appreciate your insight.
> 
> In fact is amazing that a boat narrow as the J 105 and with a transom hull design maximized for upwind sailing can be ocean raced downwind with a crew of two for many days. That does not only say very well about the boat balance and design but also about the crew. Chapeau to you
> 
> I have some questions: Downwind could you leave at speed the boat on autopilot?
> 
> Do you have sailed with short crew boats more adapted to short crew or solo sailing and if so can you comment on the differences, specially going fast downwind?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo -

The J 105 was surprisingly stable downwind under pilot. I wish I could remember which type we were using (already 13 years ago), but it was ram-driven under the deck, attached directly to the rudder post, so very responsive.

Obviously, sail trim was crucial in breeze with big swells, and we often went with a single reef in the main and switched down from .75 kite to 1.5 reacher, to accommodate the rapid changes in apparent wind as the boat accellerated down the face of waves. We only had A-sails, so didn't have to test the pilot under VMG conditions (although you can sail a J 105 at suprisingly deep angles - as deep as 160-165 AWA - under asymmetrical in offshore conditions, without fear of a round-down and kite-around-the-headstay adventure).

Since we were doublehanded, most of the time spent on watch was alone (we stood 3-3, except during squally conditions at night, when we went 2:2 and sometimes just slept in the cockpit). So I would say the pilot drove much of the time, especially at night, and very effectively. Indeed, there were times at night when the pilot was sailing much better than I could, and allowed me to concentrate on sail trim instead.

The funny thing is, while we had raced the J 105 for 3-4 years, including offshore, we only did one doublehanded race on it - the Doublehanded Farallones Race, in 2000, shortly before the start of the Pacific Cup. But the boat is so easy to sail that it wasn't a problem. And in 2000+ miles we only experienced one equipment failure, when the tack line block at the end of the sprit broke. However, we had rigged a safety line from the tack to the stem-head fitting, so didn't even wrap the kite - quick take-down, replace the block, and re-set. Maybe 20 minutes. 

Many people complain that the J 105 is underpowered, which is true in OD configuration for light-air venues. But for San Francisco Bay it was plenty powered-up, and for offshore as well. As I said, it benefits from wider sail options, of course, but I don't think it hurts the rating much under IRC or ORC. Accommodations, of course, are quite sparse for extended cruising, but luxurious compared to a Mini 6.50.


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## DiasDePlaya

The J/105 is one of the most stable boats sailing downwind I steered. I raced a few years at the helm of one. In coastal races up to 200 miles downwind with winds up to 35 knots and I steered with two fingers, completely stable boat, flying over the waves at 16 knots without a single broach.


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## PCP

*Hulls and sailboats: J 105/A 35*



MrPelicano said:


> And while I'm in posting-frenzy mode, let me take a minute to express my sincere thanks and appreciation to Paulo and the other posters in this, my favorite SailNet forum. Believe it or not, after finding this forum, I started on page 1 and read through all 400+ pages, over several days, until I got caught up. Can't begin to say how much I learned, along the way, and how many images and videos of beautiful boats, in exotic locations, engaged in terrific sailing I enjoyed.
> 
> Of course, the process of choosing a performance cruiser has now become even more difficult than before, since my attention was drawn to the Dehler 38, the Elan 400, the JKM designs, and others. Don't know how I'm going to settle this problem, but am certainly finding the process delightful.
> 
> So, thanks again and keep feeding us a steady diet of amazing boats.
> 
> Best!


Thanks for your words.

Getting back to that race (San Francisco to Hawaii) if you wanted to do it again solo or duo in a boat slightly faster than the J105 and more easier to sail (even more faster on account of that), in a boat with a far better cruising interior, the recommendation would be obvious: The A 35.

Other boats would be equally suitable but with a poorer cruising interior: A31, JPK 10.10, Sunfast 36. All would also obtain good results in crewed racing (with a different rigging).

If you only wanted to do the race for the fun of it without concerns with the rating or handicap classification (and the same with crewed racing) you could go fast and have fun with a Opium 39, a JPK 38 or a Pogo 10.50. They all offer a more spacious cruising interior and in some cases a really a very good one.

If you wanted to do that in a boat with a great cruising interior (but also on a more difficult one to solo sail and overall probably slower), that could also obtain great results in crewed racing, you could do it on any Salona, with any Elan or Dehler, with the First 35, with the J122, an Arcona, Grand Soleil and many other boats. of course you can do that too with the First 40 but that one has a very poor anchor locker and that is a no no for cruising, at least for me.

Not all of them are as well suited for solo sailing and I am not talking about rigging. I am talking about hulls and boat that have less or more stability at small angles of heel. That has to do with beam, with transom design and beam brought aft. Of course, that is globally prejudicial for upwind sailing so the boat, unless is not to be used in a regatta field (like the Pogo), has to be carefully balanced in what regards upwind and downwind sailing, solo and crewed sailing.

One of the best in what regards that is the A35. The boat is not only a chronic winner of the Transquadra in solo or duo as it is a IRC champion with many major races on his belly.

Let's have a look at the hull of a J 105 and the one of a A35:





We can see that on the lateral view there is not a big difference. The A 35 is a more modern boat and has a tudder with less wet surface a bigger waterline but the keels are not that different (the A35 can have also a bulbed keel, it depends on the handicap system the boat is racing).



But regarding the superior view things are much different. Not only the A35 has more 20 cm of beam as it have it pulled aft.

The weight is favorable to the J105 (3515kg against 4450 kg), the B/D is very high and similar to both boats (44%). The A 35 has more 20cm of draft but the J105 has a small bulb so things should not be much difference, except that those extra 20cm of beam on the A 35 will make the GZ bigger and will provide more stability that is used for carrying more sail area: 67.5m2 against 53.60. But the bigger difference is on the sail area each boat is able to carry downwind: where the A35 can carry a spy with 95m2 while the J 105 was one with only 77m2.

What makes that possible it is not only the difference in RM provided for more beam and more weight but also the difference in the transom and the aft part of the hull that makes the boat easier to sail and manage:





The easiness to sail fast downwind is one of the things that makes the A35 a great short crew racing boat. Going very fast downwind, while on the j 105 the roll movement of the boat, induced by waves or the lateral component of the mainsail has to be carefully counteracted by the weight of the crew and an experienced helmsman on the A35, at small angles of hell that fat ass starts to produce RM that rapidly grows with a small increase of heel. That produces a dampening effect that diminishes greatly roll and makes the boat easier to sail.

On the J105, with less beam and with a skinny ass the boat needs to heel to provide any significant RM to counteract any unbalance and then the force provided will only be stopped with heel on the other side and a roll movement is created that an autopilot can have trouble stopping.

On the A35 the hull shape will stop that movement without intervention. That's why you can sail fat ass solo boats fast downwind on autopilot while that can be tricky on narrow boats with a narrow transom.

In what regards absolute performance a narrow boat with a big and very experienced crew compensating all unbalances and keep the boat straight downwind in an equilibrium act will have less drag and the boat will be fast but that can be so difficult that designers have bean learning that even there some compromise is the best option at least for Ocean racing. For solo sailed boats that compromise is just a bigger one.

Upwind if the boat is well designed the extra drag is almost (or all ) compensated by the extra RM and the possibility to carry more sail. Again all is a question of compromise.

Boats with the transom brought back sail with an asymmetrical wet surface and that explains why twin rudders make sense even in not very beamy boats but with the transom brought back. The rudders are that way at the middle of each asymmetrical sail surface. Being asymmetrical and oblique will also increase slightly the LWL and increase hull speed.

You should be happy in having such a big choice. The real question is what you are going to do with the boat and what compromisse are you willing to take in what regards upwind and downwind sailing, solo or crew racing and cruising, not mention price. There are boats for all the tastes

Regards

Paulo


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## MrPelicano

DiasDePlaya said:


> The J/105 is one of the most stable boats sailing downwind I steered. I raced a few years at the helm of one. In coastal races up to 200 miles downwind with winds up to 35 knots and I steered with two fingers, completely stable boat, flying over the waves at 16 knots without a single broach.


With all our focus on the J 105's downwind capabilities, we should not overlook that it goes upwind quite nicely as well, particularly if you have the right crew weight on the rail. Most of my time spent on the boats has been in the bow position, and looking aft I would see the helmsman typically steering upwind with a thumb and two fingers on the wheel, even in moderate breeze.

Interestingly, while I consider the J 105 to be a rather wet boat, the raised cockpit combing does a good job of channeling the water coming across the deck aft to the stern, so if you happen to be in the cockpit (preferably behind a dodger), the boat is actually quite dry. So, for cruising I suspect it would be rather comfortable (I've never cruised one and never been aboard a J 105 that had the dodger rigged) and dry.

One more story - for the 2008 Coastal Cup Race, from San Francisco to Santa Barbara, California (350mi / 560km), we encountered breeze in the 30-40 knot range off the infamous Point Conception where we ended up going to bare poles for a time, while still doing about 8 knots downwind, in very nasty cross-seas (one other J 105 was dismasted nearby). When things calmed down we carried the .75 the rest of the way averaging 13-14 knots, until we were finally forced to do a letter-box drop just north of Santa Barbara when the late afternoon offshore breeze kicked back up into the 30s, and we were screaming along with the foredeck covered in water, in the high teens. I was on the wheel at the time and can remember seeing the eerie glow of the bow lights shining under the water coming over the bow, wondering how were were going to slow down and keep the rig on the boat.

Needless to say, we did get the kite down only to have the breeze die to nothing within just a couple miles of the finish (in typical Coastal Cup fashion). We spent the night bobbing up and down within site of the Santa Barbara pier and the finish line, finally finishing on the early morning offshore. 

Just one of many fond J 105 racing memories.


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Hulls and sailboats: J 105/A 35*



PCP said:


> ...where the A35 can carry a spy with 95m2 while the J 105 was one with only 77m2.


The J 105's in North America are sailing with 89m2 .75oz spinnakers since the late 1990's.



PCP said:


> The easiness to sail fast downwind is one of the things that makes the A35 a great short crew racing boat. Going very fast downwind, while on the j 105 the roll movement of the boat, induced by waves or the lateral component of the mainsail has to be carefully counteracted by the weight of the crew and an experienced helmsman on the A35, at small angles of hell that fat ass starts to produce RM that rapidly grows with a small increase of heel. That produces a dampening effect that diminishes greatly roll and makes the boat easier to sail.


When I read "fat ass" I first thought you were speaking of the helmsman, since I have found that owners of racing boats often fit that description. Or at least it appears that way to a bowman.


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## Edward3

I can attest to the sea worthiness of the J/105. In many coastal and shorthanded long distance races thru out the Midwest and South Atlantic coast have seen the J/105 perform beyond expectations. Some in One Design configuration, others PHRFed out with specialty sails. 

One area to remember in downwind sailing is that sail sizing has increased the actual surface area under the 89m2 (not 77) areas rule. This allows greater driving force in all wind speeds, and optimized for the lower wind ranges of under 10 knots. 

As for thinking to going to symmetrical chutes vs. asymmetric, the improved designs for asymmetrics and the twist characteristics allowing the leech to twist easily in light air, yet doesn’t over twist in heavy air says a lot.


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## MrPelicano

Edward3 -

Very good point about the impact of the shift to the 89m2 kites on overall boat performance. Once the sailmakers figured out how to build them, the subsequent generations of the bigger spin allowed the J 105 to sail much deeper angles, rivaling conventional spinnakers for VMG sailing. Indeed in conditions where the crew can get the boat heeled to windward, projecting the luff of the sail in the same direction, J 105s are blazingly fast down to 170 AWA, though obviously you end up sailing the boat more like a Laser in those conditions, carving S-turns to keep the numbers up as the breeze and wave conditions demand.

Surprisingly, to me, the health of the J 105 class in North America has been declining in recent years, possibly due to the economy and perhaps due to people leaving the class for sport boats (which is what we did in 2007, switching to the Melges 24 and, more recently, the Melges 20). At the same time, I'm a bit surprised because prices on older J 105s have come down dramatically, and it's well known that the older, pre-SCRIMP boats are extremely competitive and continue to win major regattas. I don't think there are very many 35-footers that can be had for $85K that are as versatile across the entire range of sailing - buoys, offshore (crewed / SH-DN), cruising, beer can, etc. - and as much fun to sail.


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## PCP

*New A35*

I believe that if the J 105 had a bit better cruising interior it could give a great performance cruising boat at a very nice price.

Talking about performance boats that can be used successively for cruising and racing let me come back again to the A35: they have a new MkII version with the same hull (optimized) but with a new cabin and what looks like a better cruising interior. New images:


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## MrPelicano

As we know, historically speaking, the J 105 with a bit better cruising interior was the J 109, which has proven very popular in Europe, though somewhat less so in the United States.





































I've had the opportunity to do some sailing on a J 109, up around the Cape Cod area, and there's a lot to like about it. For one, it sports a higher freeboard than the J 105, which means it's not as wet, and the coach roof has been raised to provide standing headroom below. All the necessary cruising comforts are present, from the functional galley and dedicated nav table, to the relatively spacious heads located in the starboard aft quarter.










But, by contemporary standards, the boat feels small for a 35-footer, possibly due to its comparatively narrow beam. With the aft cockpit locker in place, the cockpit feels cramped with the "destoyer" wheel steering, though things feel better when you remove it to open up the back of the boat. I also found the forepeak cabin to be surprisingly snug, particularly considering the head is located aft.



















Having said all that, if I was going to sail mostly singlehanded I would definitely consider the J 109, albeit with a tiller option if available. But for extended offshore cruising as a couple, I would probably look for a boat with more interior space and a larger cockpit with tiller or twin wheels. And, given that the J 109 sells in the US. for over $200K, I would only buy one used.


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## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> As we know, historically speaking, the J 105 with a bit better cruising interior was the J 109, which has proven very popular in Europe, though somewhat less so in the United States.
> ...


Not really the same boat. The J 109 has a slightly different hull with considerable more beam (3.51m to 3.35m) the LWL is also bigger (9.30m to 8.99m) it is heavier (4994kg to 3515kg) and has an inferior SA/D 21 to 24 and notwithstanding is faster ( PHRF 78/81 to 90/96).

You are right, it is a very popular boat in Europe, with a very good interior that is becoming less competitive. It is a pity that the J111, now a hugely popular boat in Europe has not maintained the same high quality cruising interior, but just a very sketchy one.

In fact the J 111 is a racing boat (PHRF 39/42), with an interior with about the the same quality of the j105 one.

Maybe we will see a version with a good cruising interior? I don't know but I would like that since it is a beautiful boat with a hull much more modern than the J109 one and also a much faster boat:


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## MrPelicano

Paulo -

Sorry for being imprecise. I didn't mean the J 109 was literally the J 105 hull with a cruising interior, but that complaints about the lack of a cruising interior in the J 105 lead J Boats to come up with the J 109 - i.e., a 35-foot sprit boat (like the J 105) but with a sensible cruising interior and some other improvements.

But, as you've been pointing out with respect to the A35 and similar performance cruisers influenced by trends in shorthanded offshore ocean racing, the J 109 remains within the more traditional design mode by not extending beam aft and broadening the transom and cockpit areas. I think that's what makes it feel like a smaller, more cramped boat (when the transom box is installed). 

I personally prefer the more contemporary, beamier designs, with twin rudders and hard chines carried from amidships aft to the transom. Also prefer open transom and tiller / twin wheels to the single massive "destroyer" wheel of the J 109, which pretty much blocks access to the back of the boat, creating a less-than-optimal cruising experience (an issue with the J 105, as well, but not as big a deal for the 109 or 105 in closed-transom configuration). 

What I do like about the J 109, as a singlehanded boat, is that it is very stiff and sails brilliantly upwind (though you need to install some kind of in-hauler arrangement to really adjust the headsail slot). I think the interior space is perfect for one person and totally like the aft head configuration. And, of course, there's J Boat France's repuation for build quality and strength. J 109s have done most of the major offshore races, under all kinds of conditions, and have proven bullet-proof. I wouldn't hesitate to circumnavigate in one, but only solo.


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## MrPelicano

Speaking of Archambault, I bet I'm not the only person who thinks the upgrade from the Mumm (Farr) 30 to the M34 for the _Tour de France à la Voile_ was a terrific one. Check out this video shot in 25 knots, gusting to 30. In the old days, you'd see Mumm 30's crashing left and right, downwind. The M34 just takes off like a rocket on rails.






If you look at the hull shape it's sort of in a transitional mode between more conventional sport boats and the newer generation of hard-chined, broad transom racing machines like the Farr 400, McConaghy 38 and Soto 30.


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## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> ...
> I personally prefer the more contemporary, beamier designs, with twin rudders and hard chines carried from amidships aft to the transom. Also prefer open transom and tiller / twin wheels to the single massive "destroyer" wheel of the J 109, which pretty much blocks access to the back of the boat, creating a less-than-optimal cruising experience (an issue with the J 105, as well, but not as big a deal for the 109 or 105 in closed-transom configuration).
> ...


Regarding beamier designs...sometimes appearances are deceiving, the A35 has a beam close to the one of the J109, the big difference is the beam brought aft. A really beamy boat for that size would be the Pogo 10.50 that has not only the beam brought back but also almost more 40cm of beam.

Regarding types of hulls....I like the two modern trends, with almost all beam brought aft and the more moderated trend that the J111 is an example. That do not mean that beamier boats cannot follow the same trend, some do. Look for instance to the beautiful IY 13.98 and you will find a two dimensional shape very similar to the one of the J111:





There are more modern boats going that way, almost all Italians (Grand Soleil, Solaris and so on). Yes probably they are a bit less adapted to solo sailing but I think that is more relevant specially in what regards smaller boats (less stable) or very light and fast boats designed to plan easily downwind and those are very rare among performance cruisers. The J 111 trend will have a slightly better upwind performance and will be more tricky to sail downwind very fast. But all is relative....and I really like the two trends

Regards

Paulo


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## MrPelicano

Paulo -

Let me confess that since the first time you posted on the IY 13.98 it has become my new "fantasy" boat for 2-handed extended cruising. There is simply nothing about it that I don't like, save perhaps the wood decks, which I'd dispense with if that was an option.

Thanks for the clarification, for I did, indeed, mean carrying max beam further aft in the newer designs, not simply having big, fat beamy boats.

While it's difficult to argue with J Boats success in IRC / ORC with their recent designs, I'm wondering what has determined their choice to not take an even more contemporary approach. If you look at their newest designs - the J70, the forthcoming J88, and the J111, they all look very much like J Boats, with max beam right about or slightly aft of amidships:




























Perhaps I should drive up to their offices and ask them.


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## PCP

*M34*

Great video, has good as this one:






Actually I think that the boat could be a lot better if it was not limited to have a beam that would allow it to be transported (legally) in a trailer.

Regards

Paulo


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## MrPelicano

It's interesting to me that all the M34s in the video are set up for outside spinnaker gybes. I've been racing on a NYYC Swan 42 for the past 2 seasons and we do all our gybes inside, even when it's blowing hard. The last boat I did outside gybes on was 52ft with a pedestal winch in the cockpit.

Also noticed an interesting kite dousing set-up I haven't seen before, where the bowman has one retrieval cord that goes to the lower middle of the kite and another that goes to the tack of the kite. I've used one or the other, before, but never both at once (even had the special boat hook - stowed inside the forward end of the boom - for grabbing the retrieval cords as they're always getting away from me).

Unfortunately, when we've sailed with the pro tactician from a sail loft I won't mention, he ridiculed our use of retrieval lines and banished them from the boat. Not a big deal in under 15 knots, or if you only do windward take downs or Mexicans. But it's easy to screw up leeward douses in moderate-to-strong breeze if everyone doesn't know what they're doing or if the trimmer doesn't stretch the foot so the foredeck can get to it.

I noted the M34 crews were executing very smooth spinnaker drops in breeze. Of course, all of those crew know what they're doing, sail together all the time, and actually practice. Maybe if we did those things we'd be good.


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## PCP

*Rod Johnstone and J boats.*



MrPelicano said:


> Paulo -
> 
> ....
> 
> While it's difficult to argue with J Boats success in IRC / ORC with their recent designs, I'm wondering what has determined their choice to not take an even more contemporary approach. If you look at their newest designs - the J70, the forthcoming J88, and the J111, they all look very much like J Boats, with max beam right about or slightly aft of amidships:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps I should drive up to their offices and ask them.


Let me tell you, I have a big respect by Rod Johnstone. As you know on the last decades sailing, particularly fast and racing sailing had a much bigger development in Europe (due to a bigger public interest) than in the states. Due to the incomparable greater boat production and the number of designers competing it was natural NA to evolve faster in Europe than the States. Also the sailors in the US are not only fewer but very conservative and tending to be sailing in old boats so this would also work as a disadvantage in what regards development sailboat design evolution.

It would be natural that the boats designed by Rod Johnstone started to be less competitive than the European ones....but that is not the case and he instead of surrender to evidences, since the Americans did not appreciate enough his boats he moved part of the production to Europe and I don't mean to make the boats on licence on Europe. No, has you pointed out some of the best and more modern J boats are made by JC composites in France and modern J boats sell and are more appreciated in Europe than in the US.

The reason the Europeans like J boats is because they are winners and among the fastest boats in what regards performance.

Regarding hull design I accept reality and I try to understand sailboat and hull design through the comparative performance and yes, the hull shape design of the J boats works, it is top in what regards performance and represents one of the several lines of development in what regards modern hull design. That line of hull shapes, mainly in what regards transom design is not the main trend but there are other designers, specially Italian ones going that way.

The reason I think it is not a major line in what regards modern design is because that line of hulls (more narrow than the average with big B/D ratio and with the beam less pulled aft) while producing very fast boats downwind and upwind gives boats less easy to be sailed solo or with a short crew, specially downwind, boats that sail with more heel, more wet boats and boats with less interior space.

While the J boats (new models) are essentially used for racing in Europe, and those inconvenient are not important, most of the boats that compete with them are more used for a dual purpose (not the ones that are racing at top level, but less upgraded models that are the major part of the production).

Dufour, Salona, First or Grand Soleil use top racing boats (very high spec boats) to promote his boats (and sell them to top racers) while most of the production is sold to cruisers or cruisers that actually do a bit of club racing. Contrary to that, Jboats are mostly sold to racers or to people that race much more than cruise.

If a boat is used for dual purpose and mostly for cruising it makes sense to develop hull shapes that while being good at top crew racing can also be more easy to short crew sailing, provide more interior space, sail with less heel and give less wet boats.

Besides that and in what regards top racing some of the boats that compete with the Jboats are also designed taking in consideration solo or duo racing and the Transquadra and try to compete in two fronts (and do so successively) while J boats are designed having only crewed racing in mind. Some can be good at duo racing, but never as good as the ones that were designed taking that into consideration.

You give the impression (I believe unintentionally) that Jboat hull design are not modern or that their boat designs had not evolved. Well, that is not true, let's have a look and we will see that we can see that on the top view even if other alterations can only be seen in 3D.

The J80 a 1992 design:



The J70 a last year design:



The J 36, a 1981 design



J 37, a 1987 design



J 110 a 1995 design



The J120, a 1999 design



The j 109, a 2004 design



The J 122 a 2008 design:



The J 111 a 2011 design:



True, the J111 (2010) design is not far from the J122 (2008) design but you can see that even so the transom is larger. That can be seen in two ways: The J 122 is still a contemporary design (and that is true because the boat is winning everywhere) or that we will soon see a new upgrade in the J boats hull design and that will probably be true too. we have always seen upgrades from model to model, most in the same direction...and the boats continue to be faster and faster. I would say they never leaved the good road (even if there are several good roads)...and I hope they continue like that for many years to come

and here you have a Finish performance boat with a great cruising interior and a hull not very different from the J 111.



I have posted about the Finnflyer 42. I got in love with the boat when I meet it in Dusseldorf. Yes, there are better boats for solo sailing but the boat is so beautiful that if I had the money I would not have cared about that. This boat should be a pleasure to sail and own. Not very rational I know, but love hardly is

The J111 is an incredible boat, hugely appreciated here and I would say justifiably. You have just to see the number of boats on the 2012 Spi Ouest and the way they sail


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## Edward3

MrPelicano said:


> It's interesting to me that all the M34s in the video are set up for outside spinnaker gybes. I've been racing on a NYYC Swan 42 for the past 2 seasons and we do all our gybes inside, even when it's blowing hard. The last boat I did outside gybes on was 52ft with a pedestal winch in the cockpit.
> 
> Also noticed an interesting kite dousing set-up I haven't seen before, where the bowman has one retrieval cord that goes to the lower middle of the kite and another that goes to the tack of the kite. I've used one or the other, before, but never both at once (even had the special boat hook - stowed inside the forward end of the boom - for grabbing the retrieval cords as they're always getting away from me).
> 
> Unfortunately, when we've sailed with the pro tactician from a sail loft I won't mention, he ridiculed our use of retrieval lines and banished them from the boat. Not a big deal in under 15 knots, or if you only do windward take downs or Mexicans. But it's easy to screw up leeward douses in moderate-to-strong breeze if everyone doesn't know what they're doing or if the trimmer doesn't stretch the foot so the foredeck can get to it.
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> I noted the M34 crews were executing very smooth spinnaker drops in breeze. Of course, all of those crew know what they're doing, sail together all the time, and actually practice. Maybe if we did those things we'd be good.


Point well taken on the spin take down retrievel lines. Seems a must for modern, fast 40+ footers. The kites are so dam big it takes 3-4 on deck and one down below hauling ass on the retrievel line. Ditto on the boat hook placed inside the front of boom.

As for leading spin sheet inside (innie) or outside (outie) of forestay. Traditional is an inside and maybe outside when blowin (old school thinking???)
Maybe the French are on to something, like the deal now is to leave jib out if blowin. Maybe some of our brethren across the pond can chime in. 
Enquiring minds need to know!


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## MrPelicano

Paulo - I think it would be more accurate to say that I believe J Boats designs to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. At the same time, keep in mind that for the longest time J Boats took two paths in their designs - one path oriented more towards racing and the other towards cruising - following the introduction of the sprit boat concept. However, those paths now appear to be converging, with the emphasis on racing / performance cruising.

If you look at the current product line, they don't really have a "cruiser" in the conventional sense anymore, like the older J/28, J/32, J/34, etc., and the J/70, J/88, J/111 and J/122 are all racers or racing-oriented (or "performance cruisers", if you will, since the 111 and 122 aren't flat-out racers like the McConaghy 38, Farr 400 or Soto 30 and 40).

It doesn't surprise me in the least that J Boats is having more success with their 35 and 40 foot boats in Europe, because IRC is nearly dead in the United States and, as you rightly note, people are content to sail older boats. The big sales success of 2012 has been the J 70, which in only a year managed to eclipse the M24 and M20, turning out 39 boats at Key West Race Week (vs 23 M24s), and 53 boats at Charleston Race Week (vs 37 M20s and 33 M20s). Of course, on the down side, the J 80 class took a beating. I expect the J 88 to succeed where the J 92, J 111 and J 122 didn't, in the U.S., primarily because of initial cost and cost-to-compete (the 88 will be built in the U.S.).

Anyway, getting back to J Boats evolutionary approach to design, in my mind I'm comparing Johnstone to Ker, Kouyoumdjian, Farr, and other contemporary NAs that are pushing the design envelope more aggressively (although Mark Mills' designs share similarities to Johnstone's, particularly his IRC 43).

In the video from Spi Ouest the M34s are ripping it up again. The TdeF à la Voile should be great this year. On the other hands, a few smaller boats came to grief in the big breeze.


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## MrPelicano

Edward3 said:


> Point well taken on the spin take down retrievel lines. Seems a must for modern, fast 40+ footers. The kites are so dam big it takes 3-4 on deck and one down below hauling ass on the retrievel line. Ditto on the boat hook placed inside the front of boom.
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> As for leading spin sheet inside (innie) or outside (outie) of forestay. Traditional is an inside and maybe outside when blowin (old school thinking???)
> Maybe the French are on to something, like the deal now is to leave jib out if blowin. Maybe some of our brethren across the pond can chime in.
> Enquiring minds need to know!


We do spin douses on the 42 with 2 on the foredeck and a squirrel (usually small female) below, provided that we've got the regular mast man aboard, since he's a big boy. Always run the sheets inside, even if it's blowing hard, but we have 3 bodies running the sail back on the new leeward side, and the back of the boat doesn't bring the main across until after the kite is set on the new board. Makes a big difference.

On the Schumacher 50 we ran A-sails off a penalty pole, so we had sheets and guys and a tack line! Pole had to come off the mast before the gybe, then shifted and re-attached after the gybe. Doing basically the same thing on the Express 37 under IRC (owner debating whether to add a fixed sprit and take the rating hit - and perhaps increased slip fee). 

I did bow on a SC52 back in San Francisco that started with A-sails on a penalty pole (TP 52 old style), then went to a fixed sprit (TP 52 IRC style), then added kite retrieval system through the forehatch and back to the pedestal winches in the cockpit (AC and TP52 style). Kite retrieval system is sweet on bigger boats but overkill on anything under 50ft, IMHO.

I'd like to watch the M34 take-downs in slow motion because they appear to be depowering the kite very effectively before the halyard gets blown, and it would be interesting to check out the technique. I've not seen anyone locally doing it that well, though it's been a while since we lined up against any teams of that caliber.


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## MrPelicano

I've been a big fan of Mark Mills' designs for some time, but I don't recall if Paulo has discussed any of them in this forum. If memory serves, Mills was the first to start introducing the now common twin-wheel configuration on boats in the 32-43 foot range, as well as the (to my mind) sexy blister-style coachroof.

Looking at the following series, which he designed for M.A.T. in Turkey, you can see how he favors a fine entry with maximum beam shifted further aft of amidship, and carried almost to the stern, often with some hull flare aft (à la Jason Ker). The interiors of Mills boats are functional yet comfortable and pleasing to the eye - I prefer them to J Boat interiors.

M.A.T. 1010









M.A.T. 12









M.A.T. 1245









While we dont' have any of the above sailing here in Long Island Sound, we do have examples of these other Mills designs, the IRC 43, Summit 35 and Summit 40:

Summit 35









Summit 40









IRC 43









If I had the money, I'd seriously consider a Mills performance cruiser.


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## PCP

*Finnflyer 42/ J111*



MrPelicano said:


> Paulo - I think it would be more accurate to say that I believe J Boats designs to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. At the same time, keep in mind that for the longest time J Boats took two paths in their designs - one path oriented more towards racing and the other towards cruising - following the introduction of the sprit boat concept. However, those paths now appear to be converging, with the emphasis on racing / performance cruising.
> 
> If you look at the current product line, they don't really have a "cruiser" in the conventional sense anymore, like the older J/28, J/32, J/34, etc., and the J/70, J/88, J/111 and J/122 are all racers or racing-oriented (or "performance cruisers", if you will, since the 111 and 122 aren't flat-out racers like the McConaghy 38, Farr 400 or Soto 30 and 40).
> 
> It doesn't surprise me in the least that J Boats is having more success with their 35 and 40 foot boats in Europe, because IRC is nearly dead in the United States and, as you rightly note, people are content to sail older boats. ....
> 
> Anyway, getting back to J Boats evolutionary approach to design, in my mind I'm comparing Johnstone to Ker, Kouyoumdjian, Farr, and other contemporary NAs that are pushing the design envelope more aggressively (although Mark Mills' designs share similarities to Johnston's, particularly his IRC 43).
> ..


Yes, I agree, with the exception that the J 122 has a true cruising interior. I really like that boat. The j 111 could also be an interesting performance cruiser if it had a good cruising interior.

I have completed the previous post with some more comments. The NAs that are closer to johnston's approach are the Nordic ones that always liked narrow "in the tradition" evolution boats. Take a look at this boat and compare this hull with the one from the J111 (I add it on the previous post).





Both designs are from 2011 and as you can see they are very similar, being the Finnflyer longer and with more fine entries since it is a 42ft boat.

I really like the Finnflyer 42, a boat that has a great cruising interior:



PCP said:


> Hey Guys let me show you the prettiest and sexiest boat on the Dusseldorf Boat show (just arrived from there): The Finnflyer 42
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> Finn Flyer 42 | FinnFlyer
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> Yes I know, a lot of you guys are saying : *Bullsh**t!* Another racing yacht pretending to be a cruising boat .Yes, my wife thinks about the same thing about the boats that I really like...except that after carefully examining this one (Storage spaces, freezer capacity, separated bath cabin, comfort) she said that this was a nice one and ask me to buy it
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The less classical approach has to do with the always greater importance that solo and short crewed racing has been winning mainly in France but that now is quickly expanding. Of course, has most cruising boats are sailed short handed that approach in design makes all the sense in what regards cruising boats and that's why I think it is a main trend now and it will continue to be.

I am very curious about the boat that soon will substitute the Figaro 2, the classical small solo racer, not just for mainly downwind sailing but a boat with an overall approach in what regards upwind and downwind performance. It is amazing how performant and "modern" is still the Figaro II 8Marc Lombard), a boat that is already 10 years old. Take a look at how different the hull is.



FIGARO II (BENETEAU) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

and how stable that boat is under autopilot on incredible conditions, overpowered and all:











Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> I've been a big fan of Mark Mills' designs for some time, but I don't recall if Paulo has discussed any of them in this forum. .....


You have to go back and read the thread again



PCP said:


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> When Summit yachts went to Mark Mills (an Irish designer) and ask him to design the ultimate IRC racer, Mills told them that he had already done that and that the boat was winning everywhere, it was the King 40 (one of the boats that have beaten all the class 40 on the last Round the Island race).
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> a lower VCG, higher RM: all going in the right direction. ...
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> One area where improvements always yield better performance is the rig. We have made significant changes here. First, there are no longer any standard aluminum components in the rig. The entire structure is carbon. Along with this, the mast will be built by Southern Spars and will have better structural properties, and detailing. Specifically, the standard Southern rig will be 55 pounds (24.9 kg) lighter than the previous rig. An internal hydraulic mast jack is now standard. The standing rigging is stainless rod from Rig Pro, and it has significant upgrades in fittings and details. All together the new Southern Spars rig will be a significant improvement over the previous rig in stiffness, windage, and weight."
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> This way of providing stability for sailing has a very positive effect on the safety stability, AVS and inverted stability that in this boat will be much better than in a 40 class boat. This boat would not pass that 40class test with the boat at 90º. This one will make a lot more force to right itself up than the maximum that is allowed on a 40 class boat.





PCP said:


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> Mills Design Ltd. is very proud of the Landmark 43, our latest high performance IRC Cruiser/Racer. This design builds on our unparalleled experience with winning dual purpose IRC designs both custom and production to offer true performance cruising comfort and outstanding results on the racecourse.
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> LOA 13.10 m
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> Displ 7650 kg
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I also posted some videos of the King 40 and we talked and posted about the Summit Md 35. DaisdePlaya wants to have one.

Regarding the M.A.T.we did not talk about them. I knew the company but did not know that they were making Mills designs on a production basis (they made top designs by command). The MAT 12 seems to be basically the same boat as the King 40 and the Summit 40. That is a great boat but have it with 3 names. I don't understand how that is made, normally a designer sells a design to a boat builder, maybe in this case it is only an authorization to build?

Do you know about the prices? Turkey is renown to make good quality boats at a good price. It may be very interesting. The problem with those boats (Summit, Lamdemark) is price, at least for the ones that don't have a lot of money.

Regards

Paulo


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## JimMcGee

*Re: Rod Johnstone and J boats.*



PCP said:


> As you know on the last decades sailing, particularly fast and racing sailing had a much bigger development in Europe (due to a bigger public interest) than in the states. Due to the incomparable greater boat production and the number of designers competing it was natural NA to evolve faster in Europe than the States. Also the sailors in the US are not only fewer but very conservative and tending to be sailing in old boats so this would also work as a disadvantage in what regards development sailboat design evolution.


Paulo,
I drop in on this thread every so often and this statement started me thinking. Why do you think the European market for new boats, and boats in general has been so much stronger than the market in the States?

What is the sailing community doing differently there to build interest in our sport?

I realize this is probably a topic for another thread, but it might be an interesting discussion. 

Jim


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## PCP

*Desire and love*



JimMcGee said:


> Paulo,
> I drop in on this thread every so often and this statement started me thinking. Why do you think the European market for new boats, and boats in general has been so much stronger than the market in the States?
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> What is the sailing community doing differently there to build interest in our sport?
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> I realize this is probably a topic for another thread, but it might be an interesting discussion.
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> Jim


Jim, welcome back

That is a good question. I never thought about that. Well, it is like that but why?

I don't think it has to do with the sailing community. If the guys around this forum are an example of the American sailing community, that is a great one.

I guess that is more a cultural thing I mean it has to do with what is valued in society. American rich guys want motorboats, a big motorboat is a sign of success and power....a big sailboat is not as cool, it is slow, it has not the power.....I am just guessing but reality is that while in Europe is cool and sophisticated for a rich man to have and race a big new sailboat that seems not to be the case with rich Americans, at least not many.

Sailboats are dreams, like motorboats and many other toys. For being socially desirable they have to imply status and be trendy.

Most on this forum that have boats because they like to use them but that is not the main case. Most that have boats make a ridiculous use of them. The boat I have bought recently had 5 years and 500 hours on the engine. Most 5 year old boats have that on the engine. The guy that sold it to me needed a paid professional sailor as crew for the only time he went sailing into Greece. He also raced the boat (6 races in all) and paid to a crew to race it. After selling his almost new boat to me he bought a Jeanneau 56. I have no idea for what he needs a bigger (and slower) boat. Probably to impress his friends?

Not all are like this but this is an important and fundamental part of the market, people buy new boats because they can and they want it, because they love and desire them. What you love and desire has always social connotations, I mean nobody wants and desires what is not desired and wanted by many.

Clearly Europeans desire more sailboats than Americans. That makes sailing more popular here, allows a bigger market, a faster sailboat evolution and gives more importance to sail as a sport.

Why? Well, I have no idea. Maybe for the same reason Europeans like football (soccer) and F1 and the Americans like the other football and Nascar?

Regards

Paulo


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## JimMcGee

*Re: Desire and love*



PCP said:


> I am just guessing but reality is that while in Europe is cool and sophisticated for a rich man to have and race a big new sailboat that seems not to be the case with rich Americans, at least not many.
> 
> Sailboats are dreams, like motorboats and many other toys. For being socially desirable they have to imply status and be trendy.


What do you think drives that status? Is it how sailing is portrayed in movies, television and advertising? In books?

It's probably ten years now since I spent time in Ireland, and Spain (too long now), but I don't remember sailing being big in television or advertising. But then it was before I got my first boat so maybe I just didn't notice. :laugher

This ties in with an ongoing discussion I have with my wife. With fuel costs so high here and so many power boats tied to the dock or sitting in the yard, I've been surprised more people haven't turned to sailing. When I ask power boaters in our marina this question they all tell me "because it's too complicated."

The exception is a trawler owner who helms a race boat occasionally.

I can't figure out why sailing isn't more popular here.

Sorry didn't mean to sidetrack this thread....


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## MrPelicano

Paulo -

I stand corrected and thank you for not making me search for the earlier postings. 

The Landmark 43 is an absolutely gorgeous boat, and we are fortunate to have at least one example of it locally... sort of. "Cool Breeze" (sistership to the immensely successful "Tiamat") sails in Long Island Sound but I think it's a Mills' IRC 43 before it started being produced under the Landmark brand. It is always listed in the regatta entry list as a Mills 43.










As for pricing on the M.A.T boats, here's what I'm finding on YachtWorld.com:

MAT 12

2007 - 154.000 Euros / $199,500
2008 - 165.500 Euros / $214,500

MAT 1010

2011 - 2 boats listed at $153,000 (118.000 Euros) and $175,000 (135.000 Euros)

Those strike me as fairly reasonable prices, though obviously one would want a survey and full inventory to get a better perspective. By comparison, the Landmark 43 is selling for over $350,000 (270.500 Euros), which puts it up in J 122 territory. Between the two, I'd take the Mills boat over the Johnstone boat, just for that sexy coachroof alone.


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## MrPelicano

JimMcGee -

To answer your question about the status of yacht ownership in the U.S. vs. Europe, I think it's important to look at things regionally.

Consider that large swathes of the U.S. are landlocked, so it is understandable that yachting would not have prestige in places lacking a maritime history. And while the same could likely be said for some parts of Europe, in general most Europeans live not too far from some major body of water. Even the Swiss enjoy the proximity to Lake Geneva and Lake Garda, two very popular sailing spots that attract an incredible number of boats.

By contrast, if you travel to the Eastern U.S. seaboard, particularly places with a very rich yachting tradition, like Newport, Long Island Sound, New York, and Charleston, you will find that yachts retain their well-deserved status as dream objects for many people. Traveling east through Long Island Sound, one is impressed by the number of yacht clubs sprinkled along both sides - Larchmont, American, Marmaroneck, Oyster Bay, Newport, Marion, Hyannis Port, etc. In those places, you find a significant number of people investing in sailboats and, for the most part, actively using them.

Admittedly, the economic downturn of the past 5 years has put a damper on the entire industry, though with a few bright spots - e.g., the explosion of the new J 70 class, and the relative health of sport boats in general. In Long Island Sound, big boat racing has suffered, particularly in IRC - recent attendance at the popular American YC "Spring Series" was down significantly this month, for example. And, from what I can tell, not a lot of new boats are coming into the area, though, again, I think this is largely the economy.

One area where the U.S. lags far behind Europe, however, is in corporate sponsorship of sailing events. Apart from the Americas Cup (which, to be quite honest, couldn't do what it does without massive infusions of private money), corporations are not inclined to spend their marketing dollars on a sport which, in terms of demographics, is a decidedly niche market. Meanwhile, in Europe (at least until recently, since there, too, they are feeling the cold economic winds blowing), many of the largest corporations spend millions of euros on sponsorsing all manner of local, regional and international yachting events. If you caught the start and finish of the recently concluded Vendée Globe RTW Race, there were almost 300K fans in attendance, and at least that many probably passed through the event compound in the weeks leading up to the start. The event also attracted millions and millions of media "impressions" through TV, radio, print and Internet channels. 

Frankly, there is nothing comparable to this in the United States, where the largest events - e.g., Key West Race Week, St. Francis YC Big Boat Series and the NYYC events - attract almost no attention outside specialty media, and rely on the largesse of a handful of sponsors like Rolex and Audi.

And if you'll allow me a personal reflection, I frankly believe that American culture has lost the appetite and appreciation for the kind of adventurous spirit that sailing embodies. Today, kids idolize the "money" sports like basketball, baseball and American football, or lose themselves in the virtual realities of video games. While the same is perhaps true in Europe, I suspect there remains there a stronger fascination with the lure of the sea, with many entities in place to promote that fascination and help make it a reality.

In a way, corporations actually do their part to promote the sailing ethos. I can tell you for sure that MACIF's return-on-investment for François Gabart's Vendee campaign was massive (pun), not simply because he won the race in very exciting fashion, but because he is, in my opinion, the living embodiment of what every parent would want their child to be. And you could make a long list of similar figures - sailing role models, if you will. I challenge you to make a comparable list of American sailors today. I'm not saying they don't exist - although the entire roster of Oracle Team USA contains only 2 Americans - but they are not promoted as part of a sailing lifestyle that parents would want their children to embrace.

Anyway, this is way too long and in the wrong forum. My apologies for hijacking the thread. Back to very interesting boats.


----------



## Faster

Paulo.. I wonder if you've ever looked into a PNW builder/designer Paul Bieker.. Interesting stuff, some samples here:

Sail Projects


----------



## PCP

*Paul Bieker and the Riptide*



Faster said:


> Paulo.. I wonder if you've ever looked into a PNW builder/designer Paul Bieker.. Interesting stuff, some samples here:
> 
> Sail Projects


Two years ago we talked about the Riptide 35 MKII project :



PCP said:


> ...There is a Bieker 35 MKII on the design board!!
> 
> The boat, like the MKI, is very light a boat with a big Ballast/Displacement ratio with a very deep bulb (2.63m) with a relatively narrow beam and a huge spinnaker pole.
> 
> Some posts back I have said that modern performance sailboat come in two main design trends, the ones that have origin on the Open solo classes and the ones that come from the more classical tradition, Mum, Farr, Archimbault and that's on that tradition that the Bieker is founded, but with the water ballast from the the solo boats.
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> The boat is very interesting but the design seems a bit old, I mean the aesthetics and the hull has only a chine, it seems that another could be used, at least if we consider that most of the better designers know what they are doing and probably two rudders would help to control the boat at high speeds downwind, with a short crew.
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> But surprise, the last drawings show that Bieker is bringing the design to that direction. The extra chine is not yet there, but the two rudders and an overall more modern design give a much more modern look to the boat. A beautiful one and very fast one for sure.
> 
> It is a pity that with 2.63m draft the cruising options are a bit limited, but with a swinging keel, Pogo's style, this one could not only be a great racing boat but also a great cruising boat, for the ones that like to travel light and have fun while sailing.


Now the boat is on the water and new interesting designs, like a Riptide 41 and a 25 had been developed.

All interesting boats and in the same direction as several French designers are working.

Regarding the 25 the hull is much more modern than the previous Shilshole 27 and it seems a great boat to have. It will provide great fun, fast sailing and will be able to do some cruising. Paul Bieker describes the boat like this:

*Although the Riptide 25 will have sportboat performance we do not think of it as a sportboat. It has enough stability and interior space to be comfortable on longer races and extended cruising. Water ballast means that the boat can be sailed effectively when short-handed.*



This type of very pleasant boats to sail with cruising capacity are one of the trends in sailboat design, with several European boat builders and designers working on their development. My preferred is Sam Manuard Seascape 27.

http://www.biehlmarin.com/mediapool/3/35906/data/Seascape_27/2x-stage2_ver6.pdf






Probably the boat is not as faster as the Riptide 25 but it will be close, it will cost probably half the price, it has not complicated systems like water ballast and has a swing keel that will allow it to be transported in a trailer.

The Riptide has a fixed keel and water ballasts, it will be faster...but the difference will justify the difference in price and most of all the difficulty in transporting the boat?

The same can be said about the Riptide 35 MKII: A great boat, canting keel water ballast, lovely hull and all, but certainly hugely expensive. The boat can be used for cruising but only a very rich guy will have it for that and even for racing...it will cost the price of a top open racing boat, if not more.

Don't take me wrong, I like the Riptide 35 and 40, they are certainly incredible boats to sail but boats with that complexity (canting keel and water ballast) are in Europe racers, Open boats without a cruising interior.

What in Europe they are offering as top performance cruisers are boats that offer some of these characteristics, regarding weight, hull shape and in some way performances, but simplified to be affordable and also with systems that allows them to have variable draft or reduced draft. I am talking about boats like the wauquiez Opium 39, the JPK 30 and the Pogo cruising line among others.

Having a Riptide is passing to another level: if compared to cars would be having a true racing car street legal instead of a true sports car. That is great but very few can own that not to mention being able to drive it

The Riptide 35 Mk II:







The 35 and the 41:





The 41:













Blue Passing Through | Northwest Yachting Magazine

Paul Bieker is certainly on of the most interesting contemporary American NA, the evolution of his designs on the last years have been great and I can only hope that it can continue like that. If so we have much to wait for

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Tall ships sailing:*

I really like this movie. First of all, in this one the Tall ships are *really* sailing and then it is on "my river" on my home town. Put it full screen and enjoy.


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## PCP

*Rm 1200*

Very nice movie of a RM 1200 (the 1260 previous model) voyaging with a family:


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## PCP

*DSS system and Hugh Welbourn*

DSS is among the new revolutionary stability systems for sailboat the one that looks more promising to me, specially to boats of 45ft and above that have a more steady motion over the water.

Making a revue for the ones that are more distracted:






This basically works like an airplane wing (or foil) that creates lift. On an airplane it takes him out of the ground, in a boat opposes sail forces in what regards heel, creating RM without ballast at the cost of some drag.

This is a good explanation:

My Sailing: Dynamic Stability Systems Go-fast gear

After experimentation in smaller sailboats the system is finally being applied to production boats and not surprisingly to boats over 45fts. The first one comes as a surprise because it is not a racer not even a cruiser-racer but just a performance cruising boat, a new brand : JKyachts, and a new boat, the JK50.

Unfortunately things did not went well and the owner changed direction and the hull is for sale. Probably a good deal to someone since it seems to be a good hull, DSS or not.

JKyachts builders of the JK50DSS - JK yachts











some more information here:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/JKyachtscom/128238239053?ref=ts&id=128238239053&sk=photos_stream

There are also some interesting proposals like this one made by Fox (the designers of Capado, the small Fox 10.20 that he have been following on a circumnavigation) for a Sly 50:

FoX Technology - Avant Projet SLY 50



But most of all it seems that Infinity, a brand know more fore making luxury motorboats and that has helped developing the system in small sailboats is going to advance with a new 100ft with DSS, this one:






Infiniti 100S from Q&K on Vimeo.

Infiniti Yachts | Infiniti YachtsInfiniti Yachts

It seems that Hugh Welbourn, one of the most talented contemporary NAs is going to have a chance to have his work really tested where it seemed more suited to work: A big sailing boat.

I wish him good luck, if someone deserves it is him that through the years has managed to go with this major development ahead while designing other not so well known boats that notwithstanding are winning races.

...


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## bjung

*Re: Paul Bieker and the Riptide*



PCP said:


> This type of very pleasant boats to sail with cruising capacity are one of the trends in sailboat design, with several European boat builders and designers working on their development. My preferred is Sam Manuard Seascape 27.
> 
> http://www.biehlmarin.com/mediapool/3/35906/data/Seascape_27/2x-stage2_ver6.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the boat is not as faster as the Riptide 25 but it will be close, it will cost probably half the price, it has not complicated systems like water ballast and has a swing keel that will allow it to be transported in a trailer.
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I really like the concept of the Seascape 27. Whatever happened at the EYOTY 13? I never was able to get any details on why the Seascape did not fare well at the tests? Anyone know?


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## PCP

*Re: Paul Bieker and the Riptide*



bjung said:


> I really like the concept of the Seascape 27. Whatever happened at the EYOTY 13? I never was able to get any details on why the Seascape did not fare well at the tests? Anyone know?


For the ones that are imagining what the hell is the EYOTY, it is this:

*MOVIE:*

EYOTY: Europas Siegeryachten 2012/13 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Regarding the Seascape 27 I heard that the boat performed normally on the tests but that is a category that should be subdivided: they call it special boats and in special boats enters everything that is not a cruising sailboat: Day sailers, race boats, week-end cruisers. It does not make sense. How can a race boat like the J70 that won that category this year, be compared with a fast week end cruiser like the Seascape 27?

That was a very confusing category with two boats nominated missing the rendez vous (A27 and Code 0) and one nominated in substitution winning the contest (J70). Besides all boats in the contest being great sailing boats even in what regards winning what they said makes not a lot of sense to me:

*"Each category featured some exciting matches. The B/One and the J/70 were locked in a tight battle, with the Farr-designed Bavaria being mostly on the winning end in light air under 8 knots. But on tight reaches when the breeze was up, the J/70 pulled even or ahead."
*

Read more: Boats.com Blog » Blog Archive European Yacht of the Year Awards 2013: The Candidates | Boats.com Blog

For what they say it was a close match. Being the Bavaria One a boat that costs 1/3 less than the J70 how it can be explained that the trophy was delivered to the J70?

Anyway the J70 is a great boat but it seems to me that this year in that category they were all great boats, including the two that did not make it to the tests, one because the boat was damaged in a crane accident the other because Archambault was in deep financial trouble (not anymore).

*"The other candidates proved that in the past months and years designers and builders have managed to develop boats with a high degree of refinement."*

Read more: Boats.com Blog » Blog Archive European Yacht of the Year Awards 2013: The Candidates | Boats.com Blog






J 70 Port La Forêt from J Composites on Vimeo.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Landmark 43*

Some posts back we revisited the Landmark 43. Let's see some movies of the boat sailing beginning with a very curious one where the boat is finishing a race side by side with another Mills design, a King 40:


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## PCP

*Ovni 52*

The new OVNI 52 is on the water. The boat is impressive and was already sail tested by Voile Magazine. They were impressed. This boat is the first of a new line called Evolution that was really needed face to the more modern aluminium boats produced by Boreal and Allures. Well, not anymore, this boat is really a breakthrough in what regards centerboarders design. I am very curious in what regards sailors acceptance.

They don't say the ballast and the centerboard has really a small surface, kind of a dagger boar really, but a deep one. The design is from Marc Lombard and is strongly influenced by the hulls of solo racers. It looks like a big and more elegant Figaro II.

I can't wait till I have reliable reports about sail performance of this boat, specially upwind. I have no doubt that Marc Lombard knows what is doing but it is absolutely amazing that such a small area centerboard can be enough to track the boat upwind. The idea that you need a keel with a considerable lateral area is obviously wrong. On the Open60 when the keels are canted they track upwind also on a very narrow daggerboard. Marc Lombard is using his vast experience designing that kind of boats and the hydrodynamic knowledge that he acquired to use it on another type of boats.

This is one of the most innovative boats around, it looks like a Cigale with a centerboard/dagger board.

The interior seems to be great and the big dingy garage is one of the most interesting features. Many boats of this size can carry a small dingy, the Bavaria 56, only if it is folded. This one can carry a BIG dingy fully inflated.


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## PCP

*Beautiful images of the J Yacths racing in ST Barths:*


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## PCP

*Poetry in images: Onne van der Wal*

We all like great boat movies and many are amateur ones. The best are made by professionals, many unknown but some stand out and are well known. Among those there are poets that make poetry with images and one of them is Onne van der Wal. Have a look:






To see the second movie click on " Grenada Sailing Festival Workboat Regatta 2012 on Vimeo" It worth it.

Grenada Sailing Festival Workboat Regatta 2012 on Vimeo


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## bjung

*Re: Paul Bieker and the Riptide*



PCP said:


> Regarding the Seascape 27 I heard that the boat performed normally on the tests but that is a category that should be subdivided: they call it special boats and in special boats enters everything that is not a cruising sailboat: Day sailers, race boats, week-end cruisers. It does not make sense. How can a race boat like the J70 that won that category this year, be compared with a fast week end cruiser like the Seascape 27?
> 
> That was a very confusing category with two boats nominated missing the rendez vous (A27 and Code 0) and one nominated in substitution winning the contest (J70). Besides all boats in the contest being great sailing boats even in what regards winning what they said makes not a lot of sense to me:
> 
> *"Each category featured some exciting matches. The B/One and the J/70 were locked in a tight battle, with the Farr-designed Bavaria being mostly on the winning end in light air under 8 knots. But on tight reaches when the breeze was up, the J/70 pulled even or ahead."
> *
> 
> Read more: Boats.com Blog » Blog Archive European Yacht of the Year Awards 2013: The Candidates | Boats.com Blog
> 
> For what they say it was a close match. Being the Bavaria One a boat that costs 1/3 less than the J70 how it can be explained that the trophy was delivered to the J70?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I agree about the odd class the Seascape was in, but in the end three pretty similar boats were compared. I would have also thought, that the Seascape could give both the J/70 and the B/one a run for their money. But no mention of performance!?!? B/one and J head to head, where was the Seascape?


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## PCP

*Seascape 27*



bjung said:


> I agree about the odd class the Seascape was in, but in the end three pretty similar boats were compared. I would have also thought, that the Seascape could give both the J/70 and the B/one a run for their money. But no mention of performance!?!? B/one and J head to head, where was the Seascape?


Yes you are right even if they were comparing two racers with a fast day sailer, weekend cruiser. I find that odd too, but that was not a comparative test.

Anyway it would be nice to have global impressions about all the boats and the way they have performed but they don't do that and that's a pity.

However in what regards speed:

*"First race done! We where inited to Skagen Invitational which is a two legg race. The first leg is the same as the Helly Hansen Skagen Race. That was 120 nm with upwind! We managed to keep both a Archambeau 31 and a First 34.7 behind us on the water but with a ranking similar to most 40ft. boats we ended 20 in the shorthanded class. Among the 20 boats in the Invitational race we placed 2nd behind the class 40 "Solo".

But on Saturday we had the second race from Skagen in Denmark to Smøgen in Sweden whitch was a steep downwind leg! And that was perfect! Finished ahead of both X-41, XP 38 and a First 50 on the water!

The positions was then changed and we finished 1st both on he second legg and overall!

A good start of the season for us in a race were we didn't know the boat and tested all sails and different combination!

But it's great fun to pass a First 50 when they are working their ass off to manage the genaker and we are running by autopilot and watch them work!"*

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Seascapeyachts-Benelux/216132001738205

The Nordic guys were impressed and there were only two as crew:

http://www.seilmagasinet.no/id/40228



Skagen race is a big Nordic race with fast boats and good crews.






I bet this transom and particularly the "see you!" is a bit provocative when letting behind a fast 50fter

On this year the conditions were tough for a small amd light boat like the Seascape 27, but it was precisely on these conditions ( the movie is from the downwind leg) that the boat beat the crap out of much bigger boats.











Some great movies of the last edition edition:






skagen invitational from Pål Andreassen on Vimeo.






Skagen Race ombord i X-41, Kiwi from Pål Andreassen on Vimeo.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Jpk 38*



robelz said:


> I am a little bit confused: Will JPK deliver the 38 FC as a twin keel like they say on there homepage (http://www.jpk.fr/?titre=jpk-38-fast-cruiser&mode=voilier_jpk&id=440 "bi quille") or with a pivoting keel like they say in the PDF (http://www.jpk.fr/modules/kameleon/upload/Descriptif_38-GB.pdf)?
> ..


Sorry, I had given you a wrong information, or at least it is now a wrong one. JPK has abandoned the twin keel concept on the 38. They will have it with a monoquille and with a swing keel. They had actualized the information in their site, with more pictures too.

They have very good information about the boat but only in French. I will offer you a translation:

*JPK FAST CRUISER 38: THE ..JPK 38 REUNITES THE CUMULATIVE EXPERIENCE OF OFFSHORE RACING, THE CRUISING EXPERIENCE AND A DESIRE TO TRAVEL COMBINING THE PLEASURE OF SAILING THE QUALITY OF LIFE ON BOARD AND SAFETY.

Many boats are on the market but none of them really combines all these qualities:

There are boats with a good cruising interior but with a hull limited by weight resulting in a diminished sailing pleasure and an offshore seaworthiness not entirely convincing. And also boats very light, with a minimalist interior and a open type of hull but not tolerant about the overload inherent to offshore cruising. They have very flat hull sections that will be very uncomfortable going close to the wind in a seaway.

The JPK 38 FC measure 11.38 meters to 4 meters wide. It is an ideal size in our opinion in what regards simple management of navigation and boat maintenance.

The sail areas will generate little effort and are easily to handle. They are complemented with a gennaker or a code 0 on a retractable carbon bowsprit, allowing an uncluttered front deck. Bow thruster and electric winch remain unnecessary comfort options.

Jacques Valer is one of the few architects that know how to draw sailboats of different types, but always with an incidence on the seaworthiness. Some examples are the 960 offshore racer, the Class 40, the JPK 1010( IRC championin 2010 in all classes) and the 998 Day Sailor, these hulls are known to be models of balance and versatility.

We considered having this boat made on the hull mold of JPK Class 40 , it would be easier and less expensive but Jacques Valer immediately felt that it was impossible to achieve a true "good cruise sailingboat" by exploiting the mold of a boat designed to weigh 4500 kg   when in Version cruise we would need 5500 kg.

The JPK 38 FC is a synthesis between an "open" planing boat and a "displacement" boat. A beamy and powerful hull but with the frontal sections deep enough for a good wave passage and a deeper central hull, accepting the overload needed for voyaging.

The result is a stable boat capable of sailing at a very high average speed in all sea conditions. The super careful construction in infused sandwich allows a large hull volume for a light displacement of 5 T, despite a substantial ballast of 1900 kg in the deep keel version.

The low weight is the key factor on all the architecture of the boat is based. The objective is to obtain a sufficiently rigid and fast hull to quickly exceed hull speed without dragging water even under load. A boat that will be fast upwind, downwind and in light winds.

The 10 years of experience building our six models, often "race" oriented, allows us to be very precise and safe in what regards quality of construction and solidity.
.
The hull, deck and interior structure elements are made like those of a Class 40 racing boat with a 20 mm sandwich balsa and light Airex Quadriaxial with fabrics and cloths UD (unidirectonnelles) in all areas of effort. Vnylester resins and infusion are used as building technique.

.....

As an option the boat can have a swinging keel;

Considered too penalizing in terms of weight (total weight plus 200 kg) and drag the twin keel version was finally abandoned in favor of a swinging keel.

For the ones that want the best in what regards sheltered anchorage and dream to voyage to the "end of the world" we have developed our swinging keel that allows to vary the draft from 2.70 m to 1.35 m.

The keel foil is made of an infused composite web and the bulbed part is lead. It provides a RM similar to the one of the fixed keel with an estimate overall weight slightly lower. The necessary interior arrangements regarding the lifting mechanism don't interfere with the habitability.

In summary, the JPK 38 FC is a true synthesis of a modern voyage boat: Convivial, easy, seaworthy and very fast.*

http://www.jpk.fr/?titre=jpk-38-fast-cruiser&mode=voilier_jpk&id=440


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## PCP

*Sailing fast on a J 27*

Last post of the day Nice images of a J27 going fast. Is not the Gopro a wonderful thing? It allowed to share all those great sailing moments


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## PCP

*More poetry in images: Richard Langdon*

This has been a sad year for the ones that love the sum. It is raining again, it's cold and the Summer is only one month away. where is Spring?

Some very beautiful images by a great filmmaker to forget about the weather.






Cowes Week 2010 from Richard Langdon on Vimeo.






Les Voiles de Saint-Tropez 2010 from Richard Langdon on Vimeo.


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## PCP

*Rocker and hull design*

We have discussed here the shapes of modern hulls and transoms but mostly in what regards a superior view. When we look at the lateral view many surprises will appear and hulls that seemed very similar are not so similar after all. Hulls are a 3 dimensional object and it is difficult to have a complete perception of its shape.

Older sailboats had not a possibility to have what the French call a hull "tendue", meaning a hull with little rocker and for the less informed in nautical jargon, a hull where the lateral line of the boat has small angles in what regards the line that starts at the bow (at water line levell) and ends at the transom, the longitudinal profile of the boat.

They could not have that because the technology didn't allow boats light enough to do that but even so fast boats and race boats had a lot less rocker than more heavier cruising boats.

A racing boat from the 30's



and some old but more recent cruisers. Look at the angle of the entry on the bow and the angle out in the transom:





Some ahead of their time found the importance of beam and light construction in what regards controlling and diminishing rocker. The best example are Herreshoff, father and son. Look at this Herreshoff 38 a 31 old design and look at the hull profile and rocker.

Herreshoff 38



Another great example of an even older cruising boat with little rocker and way ahead of its time is the Farr 38:



Anyway I guess that Herreshoff father took the idea of more beamier boats with less rocker from some traditional boats. Look at this beauty and see how rocker is a lot less than on those heavy cruisers:



In what regards modern top race boats, rocker was diminished to a very slight one. This was to do with the boat being able to plan, going well over its hull speed. The idea is to sail the boat over the water, not inside the water like on the old days (because rocker can change a lot with the size of the boat I will post mostly boats between 35 and 40ft with some few exceptions).

A Farr 400:


A class40 racer:


A M34


Mini Racer:


Regarding cruising or day sailing these hull shapes have two problems: First they are designed not to be loaded and secondly they are not designed to be comfortable in a sea motion.

Cruising can assume many forms. Some don't cruise extensively and don't need to carry any considerable load and for all comfort is a relative issue.

Some just don't care about that and want to have the maximum sailing pleasure. Regarding loading, narrow shapes like a F400 would not be able to carry any significant load and a big load would probably make the boat unstable but the situation is different in what regards solo racers like the 40class racer. Yes the performance would be affected (still a very fast boat compared to a cruiser) but because the boat is very beamy it can take a significant load without the waterline going way out of his lines. The proof is that some days ago a Chinese circumnavigated non stop, quite fast, in one and that means necessarily a considerable initial load on the boat.

Between cruiser racers, fast cruising boats and daysailers-racers there are some very fast sailboats with lines just a bit more soft then the ones used on the top racers. These boats will not plane as easily as the top racers above, specially loaded but they can plan in ideal situations and most of all can be easily sailed on that region slightly above hull speed and that makes them very fast performance cruising boats.

BR38


JPK1080


Pogo 10.50


Sydney 43


Columbia 32


HP850


HP1030


Opium39


RM1200


A35


Surprise


FinFlyer 32


J105


Farr 42


Finflyer 34


J80


J92


Sydney 40


Sydney 32


Sydney 36


Sydney 38


Regarding comfort on a seaway these boats are not as uncomfortable as race boats and there are some in this forum that own several of these type of boats and none is complaining. There are even one that passed to an Opium 39 coming from a theoretically much more comfortable and heavy boat, a Dehler 41cr. The program was a fast cruising boat for the family, no racing involved and I was a bit afraid that the family would find the boat a bit uncomfortable. Well, no. They all love the boat and find that it has a lot of storage and a great interior.

This approach in what regards sailing boats and hull rocker imply not an heavy boat or a beamy boat or both but it is not an exclusive of very fast performance boats, there are mass market boats with this approach and it depends much on the designer tastes in what regards a cruising boat and hull design. For example Finot and Marc Lombard generally design cruising boats with little rocker while Philippe Briand or Farr (at least for Bavaria) design boats with more rocker.

For instance look at these boats from Finot/Conq and Marc Lombard:

First 31.7


Oceanis 323


Oceanis 331


Oceanis 37


Benetau Oceanis 41


Jeanneau 42i


Jeanneau 36i


And these ones where even in performance boats Farr or Philippe Briand use a lot more rocker:

First 40.7


First 40


SunOdyssey 409


Jeanneau 379


Having more rocker in a performance boat is not necessarily a bad thing specially in what concerns offshore conditions and going upwind with very bad weather. It is not by coincidence that the First 40 is a great boat on the Sydney-Hobart. But a lot of rocker will not be good for going fast downwind and boats with little rocker are not necessarily bad in nasty weather upwind or otherwise. The last Hobart was won precisely by one of those boats (little rocker), a Sydney 43. They are good upwind in heavy weather (probably more uncomfortable) and downwind will smoke a boat with a big rocker.

Even if the tendency seems to go into having less rocker things are not linear. Look for instance for this two Bavaria 36, the first was designed by JJ and the second one (that replaced that model) by Farr. The first one was faster, lighter and had less rocker:





And there are some surprises, for instance the new Elan 400 and new Dehler 41, view from above look to have the same kind of hull, but that is not so. The Dehler has considerably more rocker:





Curiously in the past the Dehler had less rocker:

Dehler 36


Then the hugely (and justifiably) popular Dehler 39 had a lot of rocker and I don't know to what point the choice to maintain that type of hull (in what regards rocker) was from the designer or if it was the company that wanted to maintain some of the previous boat characteristics and said so to the Designer.

Dehler 39


Dehler 38


Regarding Xp yachts it seems that the tendency is to have slightly less rocker on the new boats (but lots of rocker on the XC line):

x35


xP33


xP38


Some more sailboats to give a general picture:

Oceanis 322


OVNI 345


IMX 40


Hanse 370


Arcona 410


Salona 41


J122


Comet 41s

Grand Soleil 40


Hanse 40


Hanse 415


As you can see the variations regarding rocker and lateral shape of the hull are even more than in what regards the superior view of the hull, beam and shape of the transom. There are for all tastes


----------



## PCP

*Beauty in a sailboat*

Interesting take by Pascal Conq (from Finot/Conq) about beauty and sailboats on the last Superyacht Design Symposium, in Miami, FLA:

*Advances in the design of performance cruising sailing yachts : Evolution of the architectural proportions

Let's start with "beauty". What is "beauty" for a yacht, anyway ?

Martin Francis told us : "Never forget the length, is it so important", and he's so right !

Bill Tripp showed us the black and white picture of a one hundred year old Herreshof racing design, long, thin, elegant.

German Frers told us something I've always believed, too : "Beauty doesn't only come from the harmony of shapes and lines, but also from the pleasure the boat provides to her owner and crew".

We could also add this common expression : "Fast is beautiful !"

Of course, nothing is this simple, it is all a question of proportions. Proportions is architecture.

Like beauty, performance comes from a set of proportions. Like beauty, they evolve with time, and with time comes acceptance. As Francis Martin said, after all, the famous motoryacht Eco has now become a classic.

The main recent advances and the evolution of performance stem from a major shift in proportions. Our FC cube 100' is an example of this on a 100 feet superyacht.

This evolution is based on 4 pillars :

- Materials : Carbon, honeycomb, foam and epoxy, laid up and cured together, allow a huge saving on the structural platform weight. Carbon is quite simply the gold of our times. For the same weight, a part made of carbon can be up to 20 times stronger than one in stainless steel. This tremendous gain can then be shared : one part for the comfort, one part for the performance, and one part for the strength and higher safety factors throughout.

- Open : The open spirit comes from the open racing rules, it is an incentive to research in all directions. It allows to test new concepts, at a reduced scale in the Mini-Transat (that we have won 5 times in the last 25 years), and at full scale in the Vendée Globe that we have won 4 times. Futhermore, an essential point is that the open spirit is very close to cruising, because the boats are sailed short- or singlehanded.

- Studies : The new tools, like the CFD and FEA numerical codes, are now really affordable, precise and usable.

- Power : The open spirit provides almost free righting moment. Using solutions like increased width, water ballasts and canting keels, we completely transform the proportions, the ratios and the shapes. We dramatically reduce heeling as well. Power then comes more from the Gz term (horizontal distance from center of gravity to center of buoyancy) than from the D term (displacement) in the righting moment formula Rm=D*Gz.

Reducing displacement allows one to reduce it even further, that's the whole point ! The keel can be made lighter, the vertical position of the center of gravity is of less importance.

This changes proportions, hull shapes, width, and all the ratios like sail area/displacement, power/displacement,...
Sailing yachts once were narrow, they will be wide, mark my words ! It works!

And by an amazing stroke of luck, when increasing the width, one gains inside volume, just what we want in a cruising boat...

The circle is now complete...*

Fast is beautiful or putting in another way very familiar to Architects: Form follows function. Nothing new about it and a familiar concept. it works for me

...


----------



## PCP

*Elan 400*





The Elan 400 is one of the more interesting new boats around. It has a very nice hull with a moderate beam for a 40ft, a transom that will make it easy to sail downwind, a great stability curve, not only in what regards sailing power but also in what regards AVS and reserve stability. Also a very good proportion between positive and negative stability. It has also a nice interior. They have now online a very good virtual visit:

http://www.elan-yachts.com/en/performance/elan-400.html







Looking at the Polar speed we can see that this is a fast boat but not a boat that will plan easily and that is a pity. Looking at the boat and hull we can get that impression but a better look, specially in 3D will show that the hull is very rounded and deep. That will be great for comfort, but not good in what regards planing. The reasons are two, that moderated beam (that certainly will make it a good boat upwind) and the weight: 7500kg.

This is not an expensive boat and the building techniques are not top due to price management. It would be easy to make this boat with less 1000/1500kg for a higher price. That should be enough to change the Polar curve in what regards the wind needed to have it planing, that now is as high as 25/30k.



Don't take me wrong, this is a fast boat that will make almost 8K with 10K wind....but I am not even sure that it will be faster than a Salona 41 and looking at both boats this one looks a lot faster.






Not a match for a boat like the Opium 39 or the JPK 38, specially the last one that is one of the most interesting performance cruisers around.

....


----------



## PCP

*Gunboat*

Two movies with the Gunboat presenting a very interesting interview with Nigel Irens and P.Johnstone about the boat history and design criteria.






Tiger Lily version 2 from Richard Langdon on Vimeo.






caribbean 600 start rushes from Richard Langdon on Vimeo.






N.Irens/P.Johnstone interview from Richard Langdon on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*VK 35 an unexpected boat.*

This one is a very interesting boat in several counts, unusual also in what regards material, building techniques and even regarding the place were it is built, not to mention a not named NA.

The VK is a Swedish firm, the design office is in Sweden the yard in Poland but the prefabrication of the construction aluminum alloy is done in the Netherlands (where some of the better naval work in aluminium is made).

Regarding the type of yacht it is not the type of yachts that is associated with aluminium boat building. The Yacht seems very fast, very seaworthy with a great stability curve and an unusual frame structure that seems just great to me. This is not a hull and a cabin welded together but a single structure, like an airplane, a mono-bloc.

The bulb is lead and the foil is solid aluminium machined from a block.

The boat is a bit odd in what regards light openings that are on the small side. That has to do with that unusual boat structure but even so I kind of like it. A very strong and fast boat for a guy that likes to go fast and travel to faraway places in a small boat in a kind of spartan way but also wants to make some racing. I doubt that it will be a market big enough for it and it is a pity. They have projects for bigger boats but on those the small openings just don't make sense.













Windward balance point at RM30:27,6kNm.....Yaw = 5.3 degrees.....V wind = 17.4knot......V hull = 7.4knots














[/URL]







VK35 Technical data
Length overall = 10,6m
Length at waterline = 10,45m
Beam overall = 3,5m
Beam at waterline = 2,6m
Depth at midsection = 3,4m
Free board at midsection = 1,3m
Draft = 2,17m
Displacement = 5160kg
Ballast = 1600kg
Engine M3.28 20kW (27.2hp)
Mainsail area = 38.5m2
Genoa area = 36.7m2
Spinnaker area = 110m2

http://www.vk-yacht.com/media/photo_gallery/construction/index.html

http://www.vk-yacht.com/vk35.html


----------



## Faster

That one is interesting... very round sections - and no chine - compared to many of the newer offerings. Almost makes Jeff's 'floating cone' analogy from the other thread more relevant 

Interesting too that the keel fin is an integral part of the structure.. is that aluminum too? or is it stiffened internally? No keel bolts to worry about here!!


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> That one is interesting... very round sections - and no chine - compared to many of the newer offerings. Almost makes Jeff's 'floating cone' analogy from the other thread more relevant
> 
> Interesting too that the keel fin is an integral part of the structure.. is that aluminum too? or is it stiffened internally? No keel bolts to worry about here!!


More I read more I like the way that boat is built:

"*The construction incorporates specialized integrated and solid members which increase strength* and improve construction quality:

*The fin of the keel is made from a solid aluminum alloy formed by CNC milling machine.
*
The bottom internals are integrated through a unifying top plate properly shaped by a high accuracy laser cutter.

*The bow is made from a solid aluminum alloy block, formed by CNC milling machine.*

Great attention has been paid to the continuity of the internals in order to avoid stress concentration points and to allow the flow of the stresses through the structure. Highly loaded areas (mast base, chain plates, winches etc.) are topically reinforced.

In general the strength of the construction is according to the distribution of the loads without any compromise in the dimensioning of the material but with great attention not to add unnecessary weight.

Short saying, the yachts in the VK series of aluminum performance sailing yachts are light and strong quality constructions."

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Alerion 41*

How can a boat be so beautiful and even so have a very nice useful interior?








Alerion 41 from Onne van der Wal on Vimeo.

Modern hull and rig too!



I am in love with that boat, I wand one!!!



Not now, but when I am older and wiser...what a pleasure to own and care such a beautiful thing. I am rely amazed with the interior, Very good work there, even better than on the outside. Chapeau to the designer team.

The only problem would be price: this beauty costs over half a million dollars, but at least we can see where they have been spent: beauty does not come cheap and beauty in this case it will be forever.

http://www.sailmagazine.com/sailboat-reviews/alerion-41

....


----------



## PCP

*Cruising: Capado, Fox 10.20*



The last two movies of Capado and its young crew while circumnavigating. They have become quite good doing movies and the last ones are really nice. Good music too. Enjoy


----------



## PCP

*Maestro 345*

Does anybody knows what is happening with this babe?

There were some here interested in this boat that seems a fantastic one but beside nicer photos on the site?... nothing. I mean the boat seems finished for some months now, why we have not photos on the water or any new information on the site. I am really very curious about this one, does anybody has new information?


----------



## opc11

*Re: Elan 400*



PCP said:


> The Elan 400 is one of the more interesting new boats around. It has a very nice hull with a moderate beam for a 40ft, a transom that will make it easy to sail downwind, a great stability curve, not only in what regards sailing power but also in what regards AVS and reserve stability. Also a very good proportion between positive and negative stability. It has also a nice interior. They have now online a very good virtual visit:
> 
> http://www.elan-yachts.com/en/performance/elan-400.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the Polar speed we can see that this is a fast boat but not a boat that will plan easily and that is a pity. Looking at the boat and hull we can get that impression but a better look, specially in 3D will show that the hull is very rounded and deep. That will be great for comfort, but not good in what regards planing. The reasons are two, that moderated beam (that certainly will make it a good boat upwind) and the weight: 7500kg.
> 
> This is not an expensive boat and the building techniques are not top due to price management. It would be easy to make this boat with less 1000/1500kg for a higher price. That should be enough to change the Polar curve in what regards the wind needed to have it planing, that now is as high as 25/30k.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't take me wrong, this is a fast boat that will make almost 8K with 10K wind....but I am not even sure that it will be faster than a Salona 41 and looking at both boats this one looks a lot faster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a match for a boat like the Opium 39 or the JPK 38, specially the last one that is one of the most interesting performance cruisers around.
> 
> ....


Paulo,

I was wondering how one uses a polar chart to determine planning speed? If it's too much of a hassel, no worries. I'm just not very familiar with polar charts. it seems like a very interesting way to understand performance. In general, how accurate are these charts compared to actual performance?

Regards,


----------



## PCP

*Polar speeds: Elan 400 - Pogo 12.50*



opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I was wondering how one uses a polar chart to determine planning speed? If it's too much of a hassel, no worries. I'm just not very familiar with polar charts. it seems like a very interesting way to understand performance. In general, how accurate are these charts compared to actual performance?
> 
> Regards,


The accuracy of a Polar speed chart depends on the program that is used by determine it and on the provided information. The ones made by main designers are very accurate (some few tens of a knot difference at most). They were made using very expensive and sophisticated VPP programs that were used to design and perfect the boat. They have as reference all data regarding the boat and can calculate, based on fetailed and complex CFD criteria, the performance in each wind condition and point of sail.

You can buy on the net a 50 bucks VPP, a very simple program that will accept just some reduced boat data (anyway you don't have acees to more) and has as base, not a very complex CFD core, but just some simple mathematical relations. You cannot expect to have very reliable information from there. The difference of efficiency it will be like the one between a hand calculator and a very powerful and sophisticated computer. In fact most complex CFD programs need not a powerful PC to be run but really a big industrial computer.

Regarding Polar they are not very different than the speed predictions showed on the ORC files, not in a Polar way. ORC predictions are also very reliable.

http://vtr.com/vtroceanico/images/CHI2755_Pura_Sangre.PDF

The predictions are only valid to a given boat in a given configuration, I mean keel and sails used and regards ideal conditions flat sea, high performance sails and a perfect trim with the boats in minimum sailing condition.

If sea conditions and waves has not a great importance in what regards downwind sailing (the waves can even help in what regards speed) that is not the same in what regards upwind sailing where the waves will slow the boat down and more a beamier one than a narrow one.

Regarding Polars that is just a way of showing that data in a graphic way. When it is not said otherwise all wind and angle speeds are true and as most of us just don't sail with true wind speed or wind angle that can be confusing.

When a Polar has two side (a full circle) many times it has true wind and angles on the right side and apparent winds and angles on the left side.

Around the outside edge of a Polar is normally the place were the wind angles are indicated (on top of rays), the boat speeds are marked by irregular lines inside the polar. Each of those irregular lines is correspondent to a given wind speed. The correspondent wind speed is marked on the irregular line (small numbers) or it is given by a color code. The boat speed will be given by the intersection of those irregular lines with the several circular lines inside the polar, or its relative position regarding them. Each of those circular lines correspond to a speed that is normally marked on the lateral edge of the polar in front of each semi-circle.

Now it is simple, as we have seen the downwind speed is more independent of sea conditions than the upwind speed, so the data is pretty reliable on normal conditions for those wind speeds. We are talking about 40ft boats that have a hull displacement speed of about 8.5K. Normally speeds immediately over 8.5K are not called planning speeds but semi-planing speeds. What you could call planning speed has not a uniform definition but I would say that regarding this size of boat we would be talking of speeds over 11K, not surfing waves, but a constant speed.

Now have a look at the Polar of the Elan 400 and compare it with the one of a Pogo 12.50 (that notwithstanding the name is also a 40ft):





Now, we can see that the speeds upwind are very similar, even if I believe that with waves, dead upwind the Elan will be slightly faster, downwind we will have a boat that is a semi-planing boat (Elan) against a planing boat (Pogo) and the difference in speeds after 75º starts to build up and at 135/140º, the best Pogo wind angle, they are just huge.

Even considering the best downwind speed angle of Elan (150º) the differences are very big:

*At 100º* with 16K wind the Elan will be making 8.5K, the Pogo 10.5K with 20kwind the Elan 9K and the Pogo 11.5K, with 25K the Elan 9.3, the Pogo 13K.

*At 150º* with 16k wind the Elan will be making 8.7K, the Pogo 10.5, with 20k wind the Elan 9K, the Pogo 11.5K, with 25K the Elan 11K, the Pogo 15.5K.

Consider that 25K is not a lot of wind to go downwind. At 25k the apparent wind on the Pogo it will be something like 13K.

These are speeds with unloaded boats and with a cruising load, even if the type of cruisers that use these boats travel light, the differences to the polar speeds will be bigger and differences of 1 or even 1,5K in what regards planning or semi planning speeds are to be expected but even so that makes the Pogo a boat capable of planning speeds while cruising (as our friend Eric had verified) while the Elan will be pretty much limited to semi planing speeds, unless on rare occasions where the conditions allow it to sail downwind with 30 or 35K.

Then the Elan speeds downwind at 150º will be 13K and 15K respectively. Even with a light cruising load the Elan will go to planing speeds with that kind of wind, but it will be just in much less occasions than on a Pogo 12.50 that needs a lot less wind to do that.

That is what I wanted to say on the post regarding the Elan 400. Note than in that the Elan is not worse and probably is better than other performance boats like the Salona 41, the Dehler 41 or the First 40, but to compare with a Pogo in what regards cruising boats and speed downwind we would need a boat like the JPK 38.

The real limitation of the Elan 400 is weight. Have that boat with less 1,5T and with a more "tendue" hull (that the difference of weight would make possible) and we will have probably a boat to match the Pogo downwind and to beat it upwind. That weight is not impossible or hard, just a lot more expensive

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Fareast 31*

This one is super modern....and not European. It is Chinese

What a boat!!!! 1800kg with 1200 of ballast, yes it is not a mistake, 67% of B/D ratio, a record and not on a very narrow boat (2.95m) The ballast is all on a bulb 2.10m. This is an incredible powerful boat: 1800kg to 65m2 of sail? That is pretty incredible....and Chinese, all in carbon of course. A Simonis / Voogd design like the previous and less aggressive but certainly cheaper Fareast 26.

The Fareast 26 impressed me when I saw it in Dusseldorf some years ago but I bet this one will impress me even more. It will be there next year.


----------



## knuterikt

*Re: Elan 400*



PCP said:


> This is not an expensive boat and the building techniques are not top due to price management. It would be easy to make this boat with less 1000/1500kg for a higher price. That should be enough to change the Polar curve in what regards the wind needed to have it planing, that now is as high as 25/30k.


Here is an interesting press release from the Norwegian distributor for Elan

source Fjord Sail og Elan fortsetter | Fjordsail http://www.fjordsail.no/


> Fjord Sail renew distribution agreement with Elan
> 
> After a brief periode with disagreement about strategy and warranty conditions, Fjord Sail and Elan have found back to a basis for future cooperation. Elan will renew their focus on the performance line with focus on speed and comfort. A weight program has been initiated with the goal of producing lighter yachts in the future to ensure even better performance. Together Fjord Sail, Elan and key equipment vendors have found a way to honour Norwegian consumer laws in a way that secures the interests of all parties including the customer.
> 
> The objective of Fjord Sail is to be the leading distributor of performance oriented yachts in Norway. With the new focus of Elan we feel confident that we will be able to maintain this position in the future.
> 
> Tor Hove
> 
> Luka Modrian


As I have been able to pick up in the press here - Elan 400 is the boat that is going on a diet first.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Elan 400*



knuterikt said:


> Here is an interesting press release from the Norwegian distributor for Elan
> 
> source Fjord Sail og Elan fortsetter | Fjordsail http://www.fjordsail.no/
> 
> As I have been able to pick up in the press here - Elan 400 is the boat that is going on a diet first.


Hi!

What the hell is a "*weight program*" and what "future" they are talking about? They are talking about the Elan 400 or about future boats? For reducing significantly the boat weight they have to improve building techniques/resins and work on a lighter interior. It is certainly possible since a Pogo 12.50 weights 5.5T and even if I don't believe too much on the announced weight it has at least 1.500kg less than the Elan 400.

But if the boat loss something like 1.5T than the hull should be redesigned to make it more "tendue" and more easier to plan.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## knuterikt

*Re: Elan 400*



PCP said:


> Hi!
> 
> What the hell is a "*weight program*" and what "future" they are talking about? They are talking about the Elan 400 or about future boats? For reducing significantly the boat weight they have to improve building techniques/resins and work on a lighter interior. It is certainly possible since a Pogo 12.50 weights 5.5T and even if I don't believe too much on the announced weight it has at least 1.500kg less than the Elan 400.
> 
> But if the boat loss something like 1.5T than the hull should be redesigned to make it more "tendue" and more easier to plan.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


A translation of a section of this article Fjord Sail og Elan fortsetter - SEILmagasinet


> NEW ELAN 400
> Elan launched its new Elan 400 under the Dusseldorf trade fair in January. We talked to Hove on the show who thought then that the boat has not been as the yard promised it to be, it's too heavy. Improving it's part of the deal.
> 
> - The deck will be vacuum infused and will be built in vinyl ester. This is one of the improvements that will make it lighter
> 
> This should not increases the price, the boat must not get so expensive that it gets uninteresting.
> 
> Tor Hove says he has ordered an Elan 400 being delivered in August. It will at the Orust fair and this is a boat that under any circumstances will be weighing more than 7000 kilograms.
> 
> - There will be a weight program at the shipyard to address all models. You can say that I have been a catalyst for it, but I have always had the full support of designer Rob Humphreys, continues Hove.
> 
> One thing Hove points out is that he believes Elan is in a unique position to improve its existing products.
> 
> - We have the ability to improve, weight wise, the 310, 350 and 400 a lot. They will lose weight without compromising comfort, he said.


----------



## PCP

*Elan 400*

Thanks! So we are talking about less 500kg (not 1500g). That is nothing very radical, just a small improvement and should not be difficult with the alterations that are proposed. Sure, the boat will be slightly faster but still nothing like a Pogo, at least downwind. Anyway it is a good new and it will be a more interesting boat, no doubt


----------



## opc11

*Re: Polar speeds: Elan 400 - Pogo 12.50*

Thanks Paulo! That was a lot more than I was ever expecting. If I understand you...(to summarize):

1. wind speed is reflected by the concentric circles
2. boat speed is represented by the colored lines
3. radius lines = angle to wind

"We are talking about 40ft boats that have a hull displacement speed of about 8.5K."

I'm guessing the above statement is not information that can be garnered from looking at polar charts? I'm also guessing this has to do with an equation which incorporates displacement and perhaps LWL??

Therefore, am I correct in stating polar charts say nothing about a hull's theoretical planning speed? I was wondering if the shape of the arc's depicting boat speed allowed one to interpret planning speed. Sounds like that may not be the case.

Thanks again.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Polar speeds: Elan 400 - Pogo 12.50*



opc11 said:


> Thanks Paulo! That was a lot more than I was ever expecting. If I understand you...(to summarize):
> 
> 1. wind speed is reflected by the concentric circles
> 2. boat speed is represented by the colored lines
> 3. radius lines = angle to wind
> 
> "We are talking about 40ft boats that have a hull displacement speed of about 8.5K."
> 
> I'm guessing the above statement is not information that can be garnered from looking at polar charts? I'm also guessing this has to do with an equation which incorporates displacement and perhaps LWL??
> 
> Therefore, am I correct in stating polar charts say nothing about a hull's theoretical planning speed? I was wondering if the shape of the arc's depicting boat speed allowed one to interpret planning speed. Sounds like that may not be the case.
> 
> Thanks again.


Yes, that's about it.

The boat speed has only to do with LWL and can be calculated by a simple formula that you can find here:

Hull speed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can find plenty calculators on line:

Displacement Hull Speed Calculator

Two boats with the same LWL have the same hull speed but that does not mean that the potential for speed on the two boats is equal. One can reach hull speed with much less wind than other, not to mention semi-planing speeds or planing speeds.

Regarding a "hull's theoretical planning speed" I am not sure what you mean. There are hulls that by design and weight of the boat will never go to planning speeds. Most cruising boats, specially old ones are displacement boats and most of the fast modern performance cruisers have a semi-displacement capability being very rares the ones that can reach planing speeds.

Planing speed is one that goes over hull speed with some margin.

The ones that can manage that need different wind forces to do that (as we have seen with the Elan and the Pogo). Some will went to planning speeds with less wind others with a lot more, some never will.

A boat designer using a VPP computer advanced program will know at what wind a given boat will plane (if it is design to do that). You only know when he prints the boat polars that have that data.

For a boat to have a planing potential it has to be very light and have a planing hull that means what the French call "tendue" and that I cannot express in English in any other way. That is not easy to have a cruising boat that light and there are not many around, most of them being cruiser racers. The Pogo is an exception in what regards not to be a cruiser racer but a performance cruiser.

In what regards planing potential the size of the boat is not significant, at least in a way LWL is for hull speed. You can have smaller boats that will go faster downwind and plan with less wind than bigger boats

Look at the polar of the Maestro 345 that I posted some posts back:



A smaller cruising boat that will be a lot faster than the Elan 400 downwind (I know the image is not good but the last line seems to be 20K wind).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*M.a.t. 10.10*

what an ugly name for a nice boat. The boat deserved a nice name, it is a Mills design made in Turkey, not very expensive for the overall quality and very fast. It is one of those cruiser racers that is more utilized for racing than for cruising but that has an nice interior and allows a family to have some nice cruising time.

The more limiting factor is the stove that is quite light and small but I am sure they will mount a better and heavier one if required.

The hull has some resemblances with the one from the Elan 400 and some differences being the two major ones being more "tendue" (because it is proportionally lighter) and the transom design with the Elan having the beam more brought back. Regarding the transom I am not sure that if Mills designed the boat now and not in 2010, it will not be a bit note close to the Elan's one but not much because this boat is pointed at top crew that whose main concern is a fast boat even if more difficult to sail.

Regarding the Elan I would love to see that boat with the same proportion of Displ/length and the same B/D ratio as the M.A.T. 10.10 with the hull a bit less deep and more "tendue", I mean with about 6000kg of displacement. I think the boat would be a knock down. I like more the Elan transom and the way the rocker is dealt on the aft part of the hull. It would give a boat that would plan almost as soon as the Pogo, with a superior upwind sailing performance, more comfortable and even if not as easy to sail downwind, easy enough for solo or short crew sailing. Kind of an ideal performance cruiser for me.







Another major difference is the B/D ratio that is much bigger on this boat (51%) and weight (4250kg) that is also proportionally much less, specially if we consider the big ballast. A very powerful boat and also one that will plane with a lot less wind than the Elan 400.









A very nice boat for the ones that want to race at top levell and arrive among the first, surrounded by bigger boats and want also to do some family cruising, not an extensive one without modifications on the boat (Tankage and stove) but nothing difficult to add if needed.

Here we can see one on the last "Semaine de Porquerolles", a French classic raced some days ago. It sails well and fast, no doubt about that






http://mat.com.tr/uploads/mat-1010-brochure.pdf

http://mat.com.tr/uploads/mat-1010-spec-0212.PDF


----------



## PCP

*Semaine de Porquerolles*

Since we where talking about it regarding that M.A.T., let's see some good action and nice boats on that regatta. A tip: on both movies on the first !/3 they are just waiting for the wind, the action starts then.


----------



## PCP

*Capri Rolex*

And some days ago on the med, near Capri on the Rolex Capri, nice boats and great images:


----------



## PCP

*JPK 10.10, M.A.T. 10.10, an interesting comparison:*

There are many common points between these boats and also some differences.

As common points these boats are pointed to the same market segment, the ones that want a 33ft able to win at top level and also a boat that can plan and be fun to sail while cruising with the family.

The boats have almost the same length and beam even if looking at the boats the JPK seems more beamier:





That's because hulls are very different having the JPK max beam much more aft and a complete different transom. Also in what regards rocker and the aft part of hull the JPK has a much more soft line.





The picture of the JPK hull shows it on its IRC dress, not the most efficient but the one more able to win on handicap. For pure performance or for the ones that want to sail or race the boat solo it comes with two rudders and a torpedo keel (some that race regattas prefere it also that way anyhow).

Solo sailing and racing is in what regards comparing it with the MAT the most important difference : The JPK makes the miracle to be able to be top competitive in crew racing and top competitive in solo racing, with major victories on both sides. Very few boats can do that. jacques Valer is really a master in the art of making a boat stable enough downwind to be sailed fast solo on autopilot and also able to be good enough upwind or downwind with a crew to be a top regatta boat: CHAPEAU!!!

here you can find it on the last Giraglia going downwind at 24K






and here, on one of the nicest sailing movies ever, you can see it (1.38) eating alive, close upwind, a X35 and the x35 is a very fast and very good upwind boat ( besides that is 2 feet bigger):






the X35 is a one design boat and among the faster X yachts. It is pointed at the same market and it is also a great and very fast boat, specially upwind:



http://www.x-yachts.com/seeems/18049.asp

and solo, here have one finishing first in real time the last Transquadra (2th in compensated by 7s after a transat).











Regarding the MAT there are more similitude in what regards low weight and a big B/D ratio. The JPK weights less (3700kg to 4250kg) and has a B/D ratio of 41% (51% for the MAT) with a draft of 1.95m (2.10 for the MAT). Regarding sail area the JPK has 58m2 and the the MAT 66.7m2.

Probably the MAT is faster upwind and the JPK will smoke it downwind. On a race like the Sydney-Hobart the MAT will be faster, on a Transat the JPK will be much faster. Around the boys, upwind and downwind they would be very close even if the JPK has a much better race record, so it should have an edge.

But most of all for cruising or short crew sailing the JPK would be a much better boat. Why? The Mat has a hull and transom designed to take advantage of all that B/D ratio and that means heel. The boat is designed to sail with a lot of heel and the hull and transom is designed to allow that without minimum additional drag.

The JPK is designed to sail with a lot less heel and that hull will resist big angles of heel. This going downwind is like the JPK being a bicycle with two smaller wheels om the back that prevent and stops rolling making the boat much easier to sail.

Sure, the MAT can go almost as fast downwind but on that hull and transom, that allows big heeling angles without much resistance, it is the crew that have to maintain the boat on its wheels and prevent it to roll. That bigger B/D ratio needs heeling to be effective and heeling is a bad thing while going fast downwind. It is a more difficult boat to sail demanding a good crew to go fast downwind.





Regarding interior, it will be a match, both boats have very nice interiors for these type of boats, even if the JPK has a "decent" stove. Both boats have offsore capability but would need to add tankage if extensive cruising is intended. Nothing difficult anyway.



This is a boat that is used by most of their owners for top racing and occasionally family cruising. That boat would be a great choice also for someone that cruises mostly alone and truly loves and enjoys fast sailing while cruising. It would also be a boat that would allow to sail almost all the time, with a very good offshore capability. The engine would be there mostly to charge the batteries

A great dual purpose boat in my opinion

JPK

....


----------



## PCP

*Portuguese entry for the C-Class trophy (formerly known as the Little Americas' Cup)*

Never posted about a Portuguese sailing boat, at least a modern one, so the first one will be really a modern one:



Designed by the Portuguese NA Tony Castro and being built in Cascais on a high tech firm. The boat will be sailed by Portuguese sailors on the "Little America's cup". It should also be like that on the big America's cup, I mean a boat designed by American's, built in America and sailed by Americans (the same with the other entries), much more fun and meaning that way.

The competition will be among the Portuguese team, US, UK, Canada, Switzerland, Italy and France teams.

Here you have a good history of the Trophy, called popularly by "Little America's cup".

Team Invictus - C Class History

It is going one since 1961 and was where the wing sails were developed here, at least at an amateur level.

The rules:

Team Invictus - Challenge

The trophy is in Canadian hands and this year's edition will be in Falmouth UK during the week 21st-28th.

Last edition can give you an idea of the boat performances (with light winds they can do go 2.5 times faster than the wind):











21-28 Sept: International C Class Catamaran Championship

https://www.facebook.com/ICCCC.2013

...


----------



## PCP

*AC72 what a show!!!*


----------



## PCP

*Finot/Conq 110*






The boat is almost om the water:











and I am very curious about the sailboat performances: What will happen when this giant will race against other luxury giants of more conventional design on this race (wally, Maltese Falcon abd company)?






Will Finot be right and this boat will be faster with a much reduced crew?

....


----------



## PCP

*James Burwick, his family and Anasazi girl, their home:*

I have already posted on this thread some photos of his family on their "home" but I wanted to make a good post about them and now that I am almost leaving for my cruising season, it seems a good time.

Like Brian, our permanent cruiser that lives with the family in a Catalina 400, they are sea gypsies but at a scale that drafts the wanderings of Brian and in a boat that Brian would find completely unsuited to cruise much less to live aboard, a true racing boat, not even particularly modified for cruising, a racing 40 Open racer Pogo. Near this one a cruising Pogo 12.50 looks like a luxury boat.



Who are they and what are they doing? James Burwick seems to be an old guy (he looks over 60) that felled in love with a younger girl and made not only the impossible dream to start a family at that age but also to live the dream to voyage in a sailboat around the world with them. He was for all his live an outdoor man used to live in tents, his wife was a refugee, also used to lack of comfort so probably this explains the choice of the boat: The best in what regards price, efficiency and safety (for that size) but certainly not the more comfortable, to say the least









It seems to suit them well as their camping tent around the world. The girl, now a women transformed herself in a remarkable photographer:

Please don't miss somira photos and if you like you can even buy some. They really are that good. *DON'T MISS THIS:*

Flickr: somirasao's Photostream

Somira Sao

After looking at those photos what seemed like a crazy idea and an impossible lifestyle suddenly seems not so crazy after all. When we can see beauty and happiness everywhere we ask ourselves what is really life all about

About them:

*Anasazi Racing is James Burwick, Somira Sao and their three small children Tormentina, Raivo Max, and Pearl (ages 4, 2, & 4 months old).

They are a family of five, making long distance ocean passages on a 40' performance sailboat.

They started their voyage in Portland, Maine (USA) and proceeded to sail trans-Atlantic to Cherbourg, France; then trans-equatorial to Cape Town, South Africa; across the Southern Ocean to Fremantle, Western Australia; through the Australian Bight & Bass Strait to Melbourne; and across the Tasman Sea over North Island New Zealand to Auckland.

The sailing vessel, Anasazi Girl, is an Open 40 designed by Finot-Conq. She is a high tech carbon rocket-ship able to make fast long ocean passages similar to alpine climbers who climb light and fast.

JAMES is a professional climber & sailor with a vast foundation of experience in extreme environments. He has sailed 30,000 miles solo around the world, was an alpine mountain guide for 32 years (6000+ meter peaks), trained & worked search & rescue dogs (cadavers/explosives), did avalanche rescue & recovery, and developed handicap adaptive sports programs in Colorado and Norway.

SOMIRA was born in a Khmer Rouge work camp during the Pol Pot regime. She escaped & immigrated with her parents to the United States at age 4 as a Cambodian refugee. She worked in Cambodia with AUSAID & Australian Red Cross to document their landmine survivors program. She is a professional photographer, adventurer, glass artist and mother of three.

TORMENTINA and RAIVO are world travelers. Tormentina has been to 20 different countries and Raivo to 12. They have sailed over 19,000 ocean miles; descended Argentina's Rio Santa Cruz (400km from the Patagonian ice cap to the sea); cycle toured Patagonia, Tierra del Fuego, the Atacama Desert, & Southern Iceland; and horse-packed through the rainforests of the Cocahomó River Valley in Chile.

The kids have spent the first years of their lives surrounded by a tribe of world class athletes - alpinists, rock climbers, skiers, base jumpers, high-liners & pro sailors. They have never lived regularly in a house. Their gypsy homes have been expedition tents, cargo vans, cargo trailers, hotel rooms, and now a carbon-fibre composite racing boat.

PEARL was born in Auckland, New Zealand on December 20, 2012. In the womb, she made passages through the Southern Ocean, Australian Bight, Bass Strait, and the Tasman Sea. She moved onto the boat when she was less than a day old.*

Anasazi Racing

an interesting interview:

*TZ: Why are you sailing around the world with your kids, and what does the rest of your route look like?

JB: We are not really sailing around the world. That is not the goal or the plan. We are giving the gift of the sea to the children. We are spending the formative years with them 24/7. We're doing a program of experiential education. We like very much the Southern Hemisphere so we have been sailing in the westerlies downwind. We are in New Zealand awaiting the birth of our third child, due Dec 22. We have no plans at present. This is a real gift for us.

TZ: How have you dealt with questions of safety for the young ones, and what sort of rules and procedures have you put in place?

JB: It is all about risk management. On deck, full body harness, no life jacket. Make the clip [to the safety line] or take the ride [into the sea]. We clip in. No compromising at this time. I sometimes demand crew confined to their berths. The kids know why this is happening, and it is cool with them as this means either story time, book reading, or movies.

TZ: How do your children feel about your voyage?

JB: They are are bit young to ask. Raivo is two and T-bird is four. She was asked upon arrival in Auckland how the passage from Melbourne was. She replied, "It was short, just 10 days."

Are they aware that they are doing something unusual? Yes, they are. They see the other life experience, the rooms with toys and houses with things, and at the end of the day, they want to go back to the boat where it is simpler.*

Tim Zimmermann Speaks With James Burwick on Anasazi Girl about Life Aboard | Sailing World


----------



## PCP

*Youth America's cup: Fantastic movie:*

And on this youth series the America's cup is between nations, I mean all the sailors of a team have to be citizens of the country they represent. Maybe a future formula for the America's cup?


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## anasaziracing

Very kind of you to post about our atypical cruising life on the Finot-Conq Open 40. Sad that the Class 40 market took over and no more of these Open 40 designs were built. So we feel very lucky to have this special boat to go wave surfing on.

It may not be the most comfortable vessel to live on in port, but it is the safest boat I could imagine crossing an ocean in, especially in the roaring 40s!

Best,
Somira


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## PCP

*Bayk kis trofesi 2013, in Turkey: some nice images*


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## PCP

anasaziracing said:


> Very kind of you to post about our atypical cruising life on the Finot-Conq Open 40. Sad that the Class 40 market took over and no more of these Open 40 designs were built. So we feel very lucky to have this special boat to go wave surfing on.
> 
> It may not be the most comfortable vessel to live on in port, but it is the safest boat I could imagine crossing an ocean in, especially in the roaring 40s!
> 
> Best,
> Somira


So, I get corrected. I found strange that in your blog it said it is a Carbon boat since the only carbon part of a 40 class racer is the mast. So it is not a class 40 but a Finot Open 40! Canting keel or not?

The reason they have opted for the Class40 to substitute the Open40's has to do with price. Those Open40, even without canting keel were hugely expensive, carbon and all

Again, congratulations on your photos, they are just great.

Fell free to post when you like and don't be a stranger, give us news about your voyages, I am sure they will interest many here.

Lots of members on this site live permanently abroad and cruise extensively, others sail boats not very different than yours, just a bit less fast and more "bourgeois" (Pogo 12.50).

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Flying Phantom:*

Whem I saw this movie about the Flying Phantom I was not very impressed. After all the F18 is a very fast cat and the Phantom seemed to hesitate between foiling speed and "natural" speed and didn't look faster.






But this one convinced me:






They anounce 26.4K with 9/11.5K wind and that's fantastic

they say about the boat:

*The Flying Phantom is not an F18, it is especially designed for foiling. The hull shape is the﻿ only common part shared with the F18 Phantom, the boat is lighter and wider than an F18.*

*"After an intensive year of research, development and countless hours of testing, SAIL INNOVATION is proud to launch the Phantom Formula 18.

The Phantom project was born in order to design the finest F18. World Champions Olivier Backes and Arnaud Jarlegan worked in close collaboration with renowned designer Martin Fischer.

The goal was to produce the most accomplished Formula 18, fast in all conditions and easy to sail.

During the last 12 months of testing, the entire team has been fully dedicated to fine tuning every detail in order to get a fully optimized, reliable and user friendly boat.

The boat has been tested in normal course racing and long distance races by highly skilled sailors such as: Olivier Backes, Xavier Revil and Jean Christophe Mourniac. All have provided very accurate feedback to evolve the performance of the boat. Additionally, weekend club sailors have also been involved in this testing campaign in order to ensure the boat is easy to use.

The Phantom Formula 18 is a unique high-end product in terms of design, construction and finishing quality.

All hull components - hull shell, bulkheads, sub-decks - are built under vacuum which improves the structural properties and makes the boat stiffer and more durable.

As a standard the Phantom offers hollow full carbon autoclaved daggerboards and rudders. This top of the range technology provides the best weight / strength / stiffness ratio.

The Phantom is now available in Limited Edition. In order to maintain the highest quality and the value of the boat on the second hand market, only 25 Phantom will be produced in 2013."*

The boat is in production now and it sells for 19650 Euros (ex tax, ex factory -Europe- for standard colors -white, black or red- with a full set of SAIL INNOVATION sails).

I would expect to see these babies racing together soon. This is less than half the price of J70 and seems to me twice the fun

...


----------



## Faster

anasaziracing said:


> Very kind of you to post about our atypical cruising life on the Finot-Conq Open 40. Sad that the Class 40 market took over and no more of these Open 40 designs were built. So we feel very lucky to have this special boat to go wave surfing on.
> 
> It may not be the most comfortable vessel to live on in port, but it is the safest boat I could imagine crossing an ocean in, especially in the roaring 40s!
> 
> Best,
> Somira


As someone who feels strongly that children should not be the reason to avoid or stop sailing, I think your story is inspirational, Somira. Welcome to Sailnet.

Paulo has posted some of your great shots and photos, we're looking forward to more - you'll be a great addition to the forum.

Welcome!


----------



## PCP

*Django 6.70*

New boat from the boat builder "Maree Hault", the 6.70.

The shipyards has a funny story: The owner, Serge Calvez, was a furniture maker, a good one, with a passion for sailing.

We decided to make his own boat, a mini racer over the plans of Pierre Rolland. The boat was made and bit by bit he passed from the furniture to boat building with the help of Rolland that was making the drawings. As the building in maritime plywood was more expensive he ended up making fiberglass boats.

He started with the minis racers and then started to use the principle that makes the mini racer the fastest and safest small solo racer to make very small cruisers with offshore capability. I had talked here already about the Django 7.70, that offers for about 50 000 euros a fast mini cruiser with a good cruising interior:















and talked about a French guy, Christophe Mora, that is going to circumnavigate in one and is looking for partners for the different legs. He is going to leave in august. If you are interested:

? sur terres | Into the wind

He is a full line of small racers and cruisers, all very interesting boats, designed by not less interesting designer/racer, Pierre Rolland.

Marée Haute - Home

www.rolland-archi.com

The new boat, the 6.70 will be the smaller, based directly on the mini racer but with a better interior and a lifting keel. A nice looking boat













PS.

For the ones that look for an interesting used 36ft fast cruiser, this Rolland design seems great, even if not for the asking price:

http://www.bateau-fifty-occasion.com/offres/site_fabulo/index.html


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## PCP

*Portuguese Traditional Boats: Moliceiro*

Some years ago a genetic study detected a somewhat important Phoenician trace on the Portuguese genetic pool. Well, I would say that if we look at some of the traditional boats we can see that, I mean that Eastern, oriental influence. Look at these beauties:


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## PCP

*One of my preferred boats got even better: Malango 1045*

One of the things I hate more in my boat is to have to carry the dinghy over the cockpit: Not a problem, the boat is wide enough and the dingy narrow enough not to constitute a problem regarding lateral passage. The dingy only weighs 17kg and it is very easy to take it out or put it on the water. It has nothing to do with practicability but with looks: What is the use to have a beautiful boat is then I have to make it ugly with a dinghy, making it look heavy and inelegant? A dingy hanging on the back of the boat is even worse and more dangerous on a relatively small boat.

Normally you have to have big boat to have a proper garage, generally with a minimum of 50ft and even so very few offer that with that size, except the Malango, I mean the Malango offers it in a 10m boat (999).






That's not the only thing I **** on the Malango, I like the top construction that allows it to weight only 3600kg, I like the deep swing keel that allows a huge draft (2.50) with the possibility to have it breached (with the help two lateral "legs" that you deploy from the cockpit), I like the light and "clean" interior with a good galley and very good storage, I like the Jules Marin designed hull based on open boats, I like the big 36% D/B ratio (considering a draft of 2.50 and a lower CG keel), I like the way it sails  starting to make 2 digit speeds with 20K winds and about wind speed with 5K wind. Yes, I like very much the Malango 999:















But now they have a better one, the 1045 that is the old 999 with about more half a meter on a skirt. Result: about half a knot more speed, more storage and a better interface with the water, for swimming or going out of the dinghy. I love it even more


----------



## hannah2

Paulo,

The Malango is an interesting boat, can it go off shore or is it a coastal weekend boat? I did not notice a chain locker, an anchor yes, but? 

What is the green area for in the drawing? 

Nice boat for a couple of any age.

Cheers

Steve


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: One of my preferred boats got even better: Malango 1045*

I certainly agree, Paulo. Tenders tend to suffer the same curse the yachts they tend to: the bigger they are, the more we seem to like them, except when out of use. Then we wish they could just disappear, and that's exactly what Malango's do with their tenders. "Chapeau", certainly if you know this garage does not leave a ridiculous interior, even on a smaller boat such as the 888.

During our many visits to Britanny we also visited the IDB Marine boatyard that builds these Malango's. Small and somewhat clumsy in appearance, but clearly driven by a bunch of enthusiasts who immediately make you feel at home and inspire confidence and competence. The kind of places special boats are built and customers are probably not treated as numbers on a order form, the same spirit we experienced with Structures.
If they had a design sufficiently spacious to host our breed of basketball players, we would certainly also have considered a Malango.

I also very much liked your post about the Django's and especially the 6.70. Statistics all over Europe show the average age of boat owners is rising dramatically. So we need more of this kind of designs to attract young people to yachting. This one can be beached, trailed and launched without a crane, saving quite a lot of costs and extending the sailing horizon at the same time. Adding the performance I believe this is a very promising cocktail to recruit young addicts.

I only think the lifted keel will be a very bothersome intrusion in the interior, especially on such a small boat. But I understand a swinging keel would make this little boat too expensive for the market segment it is intended to.
Although I am myself used to (and perfectly happy with) a basic interior, I don't like concessions on the finishing touch and the way wires are left unprotected (such as on the 7.70 interior picture) is asking for immediate trouble. It won't take more than a few nice waves and an inadvertent crewmember to tear these off. But covering them is of course an easy job and DIY is an essentiel skill starting yachtsmen better acquire as soon as possible.

So I very much welcome these innovative and attractive designs and certainly hope many more will follow.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> The Malango is an interesting boat, can it go off shore or is it a coastal weekend boat? I did not notice a chain locker, an anchor yes, but?
> 
> What is the green area for in the drawing?
> 
> Nice boat for a couple of any age.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve


Hi Steve,

The green spaces seem to me storage spaces. It has certainly a chain locker (at white in the drawing).

The boat is not a weekend cruiser, I would say a coastal cruiser with offshore potential. The boat has a big stability and many boats of this type make the Transquadra (a transat) and I don't remember of anyone having seaworthiness problems. Not a boat to sail on high latitudes or on the wrong season offshore though.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

If you look very closely at the second Malango video, it does appear to have an anchor locker in the bow, as evidenced by what looks like a stainless steel latch where one might expect to find one for a locker, as well as a small raised nacelle just aft of the headsail furling drum, presumably to allow the anchor rode to enter / exit. Also, one of the interior shots looks like it shows what would be an anchor locker extending down and aft into the forepeak. Hard to believe this boat would be lacking in that regard.

I never know quite what people mean when they ask if a boat can go "offshore" - one can cross oceans in just about anything. The Malango seems perfectly suitable for extended ocean sailing, and based on the video and reputation of the boat yard, I wouldn't hesitate to sail it from the U.S. East Coast to the Caribbean, for example.

However, the Malango is clearly not intended as a blue water cruiser - it lacks storage and tankage that most people would consider necessities for such usage. Of course, that doesn't mean that there are not people who might circumnavigate in one. Alessandro Di Benedetto went around in a Mini 6.50, for goodness sake. And after reading Paulo's posts about the Polish women who did solo circumnavigations in the Mantra 28 I have a new appreciation for the seaworthiness of small boats. The Malango might even do the trick for me. 

NOTE: Have to love this quote from the IDB Marine web site, regarding the Malango 888: "Malango 888 is primarily a pleasure boat, designed both for use as a day-boat or for a Transquadra..." I guess that answers the question about the offshore suitability of these boats.


----------



## PCP

*Re: One of my preferred boats got even better: Malango 1045*



EricKLYC said:


> ...
> 
> I also very much liked your post about the Django's and especially the 6.70. Statistics all over Europe show the average age of boat owners is rising dramatically. So we need more of this kind of designs to attract young people to yachting. This one can be beached, trailed and launched without a crane, saving quite a lot of costs and extending the sailing horizon at the same time. Adding the performance I believe this is a very promising cocktail to recruit young addicts.
> 
> I only think the lifted keel will be a very bothersome intrusion in the interior, especially on such a small boat. But I understand a swinging keel would make this little boat too expensive for the market segment it is intended to.
> Although I am myself used to (and perfectly happy with) a basic interior, I don't like concessions on the finishing touch and the way wires are left unprotected (such as on the 7.70 interior picture) is asking for immediate trouble. It won't take more than a few nice waves and an inadvertent crewmember to tear these off. But covering them is of course an easy job and DIY is an essentiel skill starting yachtsmen better acquire as soon as possible.
> 
> So I very much welcome these innovative and attractive designs and certainly hope many more will follow.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Hi Eric,

Yes, those wires are really odd and I don't have a clue about what they are. Maybe something mounted by the boat owner and not the shipyard?

Unfortunately any new boat is expensive and even the Django 6.70 costs over 40 000 euros. I guess that kids will be sailing mostly on small boats of this type but used old ones. I heard about two kids that are circumnavigating on an old mini racer and some time ago about three friends that crossed the Atlantic on an old Pogo 8.50 and voyaged extensively before coming back.

Yes I believe that is probably the more fun and less expensive type of boat for voyaging....but kids have only money for old ones....unless they are rich kids

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

If you mean those wires on the inside of the cabin by the companionway, those connect to the NKE displays on the cockpit cabin bulkhead. There's a wire coming out of the bottom of the compass, beneath the companionway, as well. That's a fairly common way to route instrument wiring on race boats with the displays mounted in that location. Not really any better options. And the wiring is marine grade and can withstand a fair bit of moisture. They're mounted in similar fashion on Mini 6.50s and those are fairly wet boats.

On expensive cruising boats, with interior cabin liners, you can hide all that wiring. But now you're in a different price range.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: One of my preferred boats got even better: Malango 1045*



PCP said:


> Hi Eric,
> 
> Yes, those wires are really odd and I don't have a clue about what they are. Maybe something mounted by the boat owner and not the shipyard?
> 
> Unfortunately any new boat is expensive and even the Django 6.70 costs over 40 000 euros. I guess that kids will be sailing mostly on small boats of this type but used old ones. I heard about two kids that are circumnavigating on an old mini racer and some time ago about three friends that crossed the Atlantic on an old Pogo 8.50 and voyaged extensively before coming back.
> 
> Yes I believe that is probably the more fun and less expensive type of boat for voyaging....but kids have only money for old ones....unless they are rich kids
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The pricing on the Malango 888 is listed at 76.000 €, while the 999 lists at 115.000 €. By comparison, the SeaScape 27 lists at around 50.000 €, so I think the boats are not overpriced for today's market. Of course, these are all base prices, without sails, electronics or accessories. I would probably tack at least another 30.000 € to each of those prices to get to a realistic sail-away price, possibly more if you throw in solar panels, AIS, radar, etc. But I suspect you'll be pretty happy with the result.


----------



## PCP

*Malango 999*



MrPelicano said:


> If you look very closely at the second Malango video, it does appear to have an anchor locker in the bow, as evidenced by what looks like a stainless steel latch where one might expect to find one for a locker, as well as a small raised nacelle just aft of the headsail furling drum, presumably to allow the anchor rode to enter / exit. Also, one of the interior shots looks like it shows what would be an anchor locker extending down and aft into the forepeak. Hard to believe this boat would be lacking in that regard.
> 
> I never know quite what people mean when they ask if a boat can go "offshore" - one can cross oceans in just about anything. The Malango seems perfectly suitable for extended ocean sailing, and based on the video and reputation of the boat yard, I wouldn't hesitate to sail it from the U.S. East Coast to the Caribbean, for example.
> 
> However, the Malango is clearly not intended as a blue water cruiser - it lacks storage and tankage that most people would consider necessities for such usage. Of course, that doesn't mean that there are not people who might circumnavigate in one. Alessandro Di Benedetto went around in a Mini 6.50, for goodness sake. And after reading Paulo's posts about the Polish women who did solo circumnavigations in the Mantra 28 I have a new appreciation for the seaworthiness of small boats. The Malango might even do the trick for me.
> 
> If you mean those wires on the inside of the cabin by the companionway, those connect to the NKE displays on the cockpit cabin bulkhead. There's a wire coming out of the bottom of the compass, beneath the companionway, as well. That's a fairly common way to route instrument wiring on race boats with the displays mounted in that location. Not really any better options. And the wiring is marine grade and can withstand a fair bit of moisture. They're mounted in similar fashion on Mini 6.50s and those are fairly wet boats.
> 
> ...The pricing on the Malango 888 is listed at 76.000 €, while the 999 lists at 115.000 €.
> 
> NOTE: Have to love this quote from the IDB Marine web site, regarding the Malango 888: "Malango 888 is primarily a pleasure boat, designed both for use as a day-boat or for a Transquadra..." I guess that answers the question about the offshore suitability of these boats.


Thanks for the information about those "wires".

I guess the prices you talk about are without European tax, VAT. When I was talking about the Django 6.7 (a bit more than 44 000 euros) it included already VAT.

Regarding anchor locker and bow roller these images of the 999 are explicit:







Well, the last one not so much, even if you can see there the bow roller, but it is a nice one

Regarding the offshore ability of the smaller boat (888) and it being designed with the Transquadra in mind, the Transquadra is a very famous French Transat. It is a race but as they have so many professional racers this one is reserved for amateurs with more than 40 years old. Generally the average age is a lot more and you can believe me, they are amateurs but lot's of very good racers (some that had been professionals when they were younger) doing that and a huge amount of boats

They boats are limited to a max IRC rating and that makes that most of the boats racing are small fast ones. It is a solo or duo race.

That means the designer of the 888 considers the boat suitable to race a transat. That does mean something in what regards the boat offshore potential. sure the 999 or the new 1045 have even a bigger offshore potential. I agree with what you say about it.

Regarding the 999, a nice video that gives a better overall image of the boat:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

Interesting that in the very fine video the Malango is berthed right next to an X-34, a boat recently replaced in the X Yachts line by the Xp-33. A pre-owned X-34 will set you back 119.000 - 150.000 € VAT paid, while the Xp-33 is so new there are none available on the used market. I expect it would be more expensive than a new Malango 9.99.

All three boats are quite dissimilar, with the Malango reflecting its roots in offshore shorthanded sailing, with a fine entry and max beam (3.7m) carried all the way aft to the transom. The X-34 is more traditional, with max beam (3.4m) aft of amidship, but tapered back to a narrower transom. The Malango is a much lighter boat - 3.266 kg vs. 5.300 kg (1.300 kg vs 2.200 kg in the keel) - though, of course, LOA is .37 m shorter - and should probably crush the X-34 downwind or reaching.



















Interestingly, in light of Paulo's informative discussion on rocker, both boats have a fair amount, though I would say the X 34 has more.

The interiors are quite different, and you can see right away where that extra weight comes from on the X-34, with that characteristic X Yachts wood joinery in the cabin.

For me, the Malango 9.99 just seems like the kind of boat I'd want to sail across oceans to warm climates, while the X-34 is a boat more suited to exploring the northern latitudes, taking shelter from rain and fog below decks, with a warm cup of coffee, while swinging at anchor in a fjord.


----------



## PCP

*Rocker: Malango 999, X34 and X33.*



MrPelicano said:


> Interesting that in the very fine video the Malango is berthed right next to an X-34, a boat recently replaced in the X Yachts line by the Xp-33. A pre-owned X-34 will set you back 119.000 - 150.000 € VAT paid, while the Xp-33 is so new there are none available on the used market. I expect it would be more expensive than a new Malango 9.99.
> 
> All three boats are quite dissimilar, with the Malango reflecting its roots in offshore shorthanded sailing, with a fine entry and max beam (3.7m) carried all the way aft to the transom. The X-34 is more traditional, with max beam (3.4m) aft of amidship, but tapered back to a narrower transom. The Malango is a much lighter boat - 3.266 kg vs. 5.300 kg (1.300 kg vs 2.200 kg in the keel) - though, of course, LOA is .37 m shorter - and should probably crush the X-34 downwind or reaching.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, in light of Paulo's informative discussion on rocker, both boats have a fair amount, though I would say the X 34 has more.
> 
> The interiors are quite different, and you can see right away where that extra weight comes from on the X-34, with that characteristic X Yachts wood joinery in the cabin.
> 
> For me, the Malango 9.99 just seems like the kind of boat I'd want to sail across oceans to warm climates, while the X-34 is a boat more suited to exploring the northern latitudes, taking shelter from rain and fog below decks, with a warm cup of coffee, while swinging at anchor in a fjord.


Hum, that is an interesting comparison in what regards rocker but I don't think the X34 has a similar rocker comparing with the Malango 999. The X34 has a lot more:





In fact the new Xp33 is much closer to the Malango 999 than from the previous X34, even if the Malango has a bit less rocker (the Malango photo is from a new daysailor that has the same hull).



That (and weight) relates with the good ability the Xp 33 has to plan:











Regards differences between the two boats I have no doubt the Xp33 would be faster on a regatta and overall (and much faster than the X34) but to go fast downwind will need a crew while with the Malango one can do it alone.

Regarding cruising, well, that is a question of taste but the Malango will have a much bigger and more luminous interior with more storage and will be a far better voyage boat, much more easy and forgiving, not to mention the possibility to search for shelter near shore while on anchor and the ability to carry an inflated dinghy.

Regards

Paulo


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## MrPelicano

Normally I'm not a big fan of self-tacking jibs, particularly offshore. But the Malango might change my mind about this given its nice integration of a Code Zero, flown from a short sprit, into the equation.

It seems to me that as soon as you crack off the wind in lighter air, you can furl the non-overlapping jib and deploy the Code Zero. Then, as the breeze builds, you can go back to the jib and not pay a heavy performance penalty. Once you're in a more downwind orientation, you have a symetrical spinnaker option or, perhaps, you can mix-and-match A-sails and S-sails, depending on conditions.

I realize that the Malango keeps things simply by eshewing a square-top main and running backstays, but personally I think I'd prefer that arrangement over the standard one. Just gives you more sail trim options offshore. But for coastal and inshore, the standard arrangement is more than adequate.

One last thing about this really interesting boat: It looks to me like the size of the dinghy garage pretty much determines the size of dinghy you can have; anything bigger, and the garage can't be used. What, then, would one use the garage for if - for whatever reason - one opts for a larger dinghy? I suppose it could still be used for dinghy storage once the larger dinghy is deflated, though not quite as intended.


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Rocker: Malango 999, X34 and X33.*



PCP said:


> Regards differences between the two boats I have no doubt the Xp33 would be faster on a regatta and overall (and much faster than the X34) but to go fast downwind will need a crew while with the Malango one can do it alone.
> 
> Regarding cruising, well, that is a question of taste but the Malango will have a much bigger and more luminous interior with more storage and will be a far better voyage boat, much more easy and forgiving, not to mention the possibility to search for shelter near shore while on anchor and the ability to carry an inflated dinghy.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I had to laugh at the end of the Xp 33 trailer when it referred to a "Danish" sailing experience. In my mind I immediately contrasted that "Danish" experience to a "French" experience - i.e., The Danes all huddled together in the back of the boat, in their foul weather gear, working hard to go fast downwind, in cold, foggy conditions... vs. the French sailor, all by himself, dancing in shorts at the back of the cockpit while the pilot steers the boat fast, downwind, in warm, sunny weather (from that Transquadra video of the JPK you've posted a few times). Which "experience" do you prefer? That is an easy question for me.


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## Faster

MrPelicano said:


> One last thing about this really interesting boat: It looks to me like the size of the dinghy garage pretty much determines the size of dinghy you can have; anything bigger, and the garage can't be used. What, then, would one use the garage for if - for whatever reason - one opts for a larger dinghy? I suppose it could still be used for dinghy storage once the larger dinghy is deflated, though not quite as intended.


..throw a mattress in and the kids can sleep there! 

I do like the 999 - perfect size for a couple and I think it would be a blast to sail esp double or short/single handed. A really good galley for such a light, performance oriented boat. I do wonder about storage, though, with such an open interior. And of course here in the PNW we'd be fine with a fixed deep keel.. I wonder if that would be an option?

Clearly I should have been born wealthy and European.. what a rich world of design and innovation compared to North America...


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## Faster

*Now this is pretty!!*

Taylor 49 from Brooklin Boatyard, Maine


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## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> ...
> One last thing about this really interesting boat: It looks to me like the size of the dinghy garage pretty much determines the size of dinghy you can have; anything bigger, and the garage can't be used. What, then, would one use the garage for if - for whatever reason - one opts for a larger dinghy? I suppose it could still be used for dinghy storage once the larger dinghy is deflated, though not quite as intended.


Sure, even if that increment of about 50cms on the 1045 allows you to have a longer one.

Anyway if you like to sail and do it coastal with an inflatable dingy aboard, only if you don't care about sailing and safety the size of the dinghy does not matter. On my previous boat, a 36ft, the 3.4m dingy was too wide and would make things dangerous when you have to go forward with heavy weather. On this one (41ft) I have chose carefully the dingy to allow a safe lateral passage and not interfere with sailing and that it does at the cost of having an "ugly boat". I am pretty sure the dinghy I use could fit on the 1045 garage and that is just a 35ft boat.

Anyway, it is just so more pleasant and efficient to sail without a dingy on the deck that I would give a lot to have a garage on my boat

regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Taylor 49 - Farlie 55*



Faster said:


> Taylor 49 from Brooklin Boatyard, Maine


It looks great and designed by a guy that likes fast boats

*The yacht is a lightweight, performance-oriented sloop with a traditional aesthetic above the waterline and a modern underbody below. The yacht was commissioned by a repeat customer of Brooklin Boat Yard, and is scheduled to launch in spring of 2014. The design was developed specifically for single- or double-handed sailing on New England coastal waters as well as occasional competitive racing in a range of classes.

The new yacht is 49 feet overall with a waterline length of 35.1 feet and an 11.6-foot beam. Long overhangs increase the boat's effective sailing length and stability with heel. This traditional feature is coupled with an underwater canoe body shape that's rounded with low deadrise for less drag, especially in choppy water and during maneuvers. Her fin keel and spade rudder also reduce wetted area while lowering her vertical center of gravity for increased stability. Since the yacht will sail mostly northeastern ports, her keel's leading edge is swept aft to shed weeds and lobster pots. Her saildrive features a folding prop to also minimize the risk of fouling.

"The long sailing length and narrow beam will give this design a meter boat feel," said Jim Taylor, yacht designer. "Her deep, high aspect ratio appendages feature ample profile area, to provide a user-friendly 'groove' even when downspeed or in sloppy sea conditions. Her unusual combination of classic style with contemporary performance will set her apart from - and usually far ahead of - everything else on the water.

The boat will be built in cold-molded wood, a style for which Brooklin Boatyard is well-known. This approach not only results in high strength and toughness relative to weight, but it also provides very impressive acoustic and thermal insulation. The yacht will carry a Hall carbon rig and Harken deck gear. Competition Composites Inc. in Canada will build her carbon rudder.

"This yacht is highly customized for her owner and his favorite sailing haunts," said Steve White, owner of Brooklin Boat Yard. "Not only does she have all the critical details to make her an ideal cruiser/racer for New England, but she'll be a pleasure to sail - whether day-tripping with grandchildren or racing competitively with a handful of crew.

OA: 49.0′, LWL: 35.1′, BEAM: 11.6″, DRAFT: 7.8′, DISPLACEMENT: 16,500 lbs, BALLAST: 6,830 lbs, IM: 53.0′, J: 15.6′, P: 53.3′,
E: 19.4′, LP%: 142% Genoa, LP%: 95% Self-Tacking Jib
*
BBY News - Brooklin Boat Yard to Build Custom Jim Taylor-Designed Sloop

and light too even if I would expect more ballast B/D ratio for such a narrow hull.

Competition for the Farlie 55:









I would love to have a look at the interiors. On the Farlie they are nice but on a boat like this I would expect more than nice.

By the way if somebody wants a Farlie 55 they are selling their demonstration boat for a reduced price, only $1,176,150. I would not expect the Taylor to be less expensive, after all the Farlie is a semi-custom boat while the Taylor 49 is a custom boat.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=76729&url=

and there are some that find mass production modern boats expensive regarding old boats ...but they where a beauty, that's for sure!!!

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Bavaria 40 MKII*

Talking about inexpensive boats, this one will cost less than 150 000 euros including VAT. From the previous boat this one has only retained the Farr hull, a good one and even the keel and ruder are revised.

The boat looks much more elegant than the previous model and the interior looks brighter and more modern.



I love those 4 winches on the cockpit and this is the only mass production main market cruiser that offers them.


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## PCP

*Cruising: ARC*

As you probably know the 2013 was full only some months after the opening of inscriptions. 245 boats was the limit they could manage in what regards marinas in Canary Islands, even after they have expanded the marina.

So they decided to create another one with a different time departure (two weeks earlier), leaving Las Palmas at 10 November and it will go on a parallel course visiting Cape Verde Islands before heading to Saint Lucia arriving just some days earlier than the main rally.

This one is called ARC+

A parallel route to the annual ARC transatlantic rally is being created in November to cope with unprecedented demand for places. Called the ARC+ the event will leave Las Palmas on 10 November, two weeks' earlier than the ARC start, and visit the Cape Verde Islands before heading for Saint Lucia to arrive just ahead of the main fleet. The Rally will be limited to 50 yachts.

But this year, besides ARC this will not be the only other option. There are three more other other cruising rallies this November and December: the new Christmas Caribbean Rally from Lanzarote to Antigua and two others created by ARC founder Jimmy Cornell, the Atlantic Odyssey from Lanzarote to Martinique and Atlantic Odyssey II from Las Palmas to Grenada.

I have never see anything like this, it seems that the number of boats crossing the Atlantic this year will be a record number

Just to go with the mood I will post some movies from boats doing the ARC. By the way there is somebody reading this that will go on one of those?

A First 40.7:






A First 36.7:











an interesting Sam Manuard design, kind of a Pogo 10.50:






a Dehler 36:






a Rival 32:






a Dufour 45e:






a Xp44:






and the 40Class racer Vaquita, the one to arrived first in 2012 beating a Swan 80:











..


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## PCP

*Probably the most beautiful 2013 boat: Pogo 40 S3*

Yes, it is not a cruising boat but what can I say, I guess I agree with Conq when he says beauty in sailboats is directed related with efficiency and speed and this one will be faster by 15% than the previous model

15% in speed is huge and expecting that in what regards the previous racing model is just incredible and if that was not subscribed by Verdier I would say they were nuts and even so.... I have some difficulty in accepting that.

the other thing incredible about this boat is price: less than 300 000 euros and for the ones that know what is the average price of a 40ft ocean racing boat will know what I am talking about: This is going to be the fastest long range offshore racer for the buck.

The New Pogo 40 class racer:







The boat has an unusually low freeboard and the design of the transom and the way it is integrated in the hull is just magnificent. Just to look at it I would expect it to be a very fast boat...it just looks right

That is the first time a Pogo is not designed by Finot/Conq. This one is designed by the new kid sensation among French designers, an outsider that has been working alone with sporadic joint work with VPLP. VPLP are top multihull designers and his theory is that monohulls are going so fast that many of the hydrodinamic problems that arise regarding planing has been already solved on multihulls that come to those kind of speeds first and looking to the results of that strange partnership I would say that he is probably right. I am talking about Guillaume verdier the designer of the boat that won the last Vendee but also the one that come in second and the one that would come in third if it had not lost the keel and many more among the fastest Open 60's (With VPLP colaboration).

he designed also some top racing multihulls and is part of the design team of the AC NZ72.

He did not design yet many cruising boats but I bet that is going to change soon: French main boat builders have a tradition to have their boats designed by the best French NA with the best racing curriculum (in what regards designing boats) specially the ones that design solo racers whose experience is more useful in cruising boats that, like solo boats, should be easy to sail and as fast as possible with the limitations of price and a good cruising interior.

guillaume verdier - architecture navale - Introduction Projets

http://www.vplp.fr/flash/index.html


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## nemier

I'm drooling!


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Probably the most beautiful 2013 boat: Pogo 40 S3*



PCP said:


> He did not design yet many cruising boats but I bet that is going to change soon: French main boat builders have a tradition to have their boats designed by the best French NA with the best racing curriculum (in what regards designing boats) specially the ones that design solo racers whose experience is more useful in cruising boats that, like solo boats, should be easy to sail and as fast as possible with the limitations of price and a good cruising interior.


Paulo - Clearly this is the case, and even so for Beneteau, who enlisted Juan Kouyoumdjian (French/Argentinian, I believe) to design the latest First 30. Don't know if you've commented on that boat, but I don't think Beneteau have had much success with it. Not competitive under IRC (don't know about ORC), but I'm not sure how it has fared (if at all) in offshore competition. It's not that there isn't a market for these types of boats, but perhaps Beneteau customers are more conservative. Perhaps Jeanneau have had more success with the Sunfast 3200?

I'm still too infatuated with the Malango 9.99 and 1045 to get too worked up about the Pogo 40. Perhaps next week.


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## PCP

*First 30*



MrPelicano said:


> Paulo - Clearly this is the case, and even so for Beneteau, who enlisted Juan Kouyoumdjian (French/Argentinian, I believe) to design the latest First 30. Don't know if you've commented on that boat, but I don't think Beneteau have had much success with it. Not competitive under IRC (don't know about ORC), but I'm not sure how it has fared (if at all) in offshore competition. It's not that there isn't a market for these types of boats, but perhaps Beneteau customers are more conservative. Perhaps Jeanneau have had more success with the Sunfast 3200?
> 
> ...


Yes, I have posted about the First 30 when the boat come to the market, near the beginning of this thread and you are right, not only the 30 is a JK design as the First 35 and 40 are Farr designed, as the previous models. That is a exception, I mean the First, if you look at all other mass market French boats very few (if any) are designed by non French NA.

Regarding the First 30 even if the boat looks great and I love JK as designer that one seems not to be one of his best designs. The rating expected was to be over 1.0 (ORC) but the boat never reached it and was considerably slower to the point of the ones that actually race on top in France have a modified keel with more ballast.

Of course as a cruising boat nothing of this is very important but that is a dual purpose boat and nobody likes to have a boat that does not sail to his rating or is slightly slower than others.

It is not the only one, for instance the Elan 310 that was also received as a great boat by the press never proved as a racer. Note that one thing is racing other cruising. Both boats are nice and fast performance cruisers.

Regarding absolute performances I will post some ORC files that are very informative and close in what regards performance and I am sure that if you look closely at them you will be able to have a good overall picture.

First 30:

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12017a.pdf

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12062a.pdf

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12098a.pdf

JPK 10.10:

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12048a.pdf

JPK 960:

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12069a.pdf

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12088a.pdf

Elan 310:

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12027a.pdf

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12057a.pdf

GD Surpise:

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12008b.pdf

A31:

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12150a.pdf

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Cruising: Atlantic crossing - 10 tips*

On the following of that post about the ARC I remember a nice article, mixing good sense with experience, published on Yachting world magazine by Elaine Bunting,

*Top 10 tips for an Atlantic crossing*:

*"1. You don't need a special boat

Time was when a proper bluewater cruiser had chines, a ketch rig and self-steering gear at the stern. That was a perception, and perceptions change. Numerically, the most common transatlantic yachts these days are ordinary production cruisers with standard kit.

There's no black art to sailing 3,000 miles downwind. Generally, the toughest part of an Atlantic crossing is getting across Biscay. So whatever boat you have right now, the chances are that with a bit of extra prep she'll be fine for an Atlantic crossing.

As for a watermaker, generator, SSB radio, etc: they're all useful, but every additional item adds complication and service cost/time. Apart from a sound boat, all you really need is water, food, fuel and a (paper) copy of 'North Atlantic, Southern Part'.

2. Keep it simple

A smart crossing is all about consistent speed, 24 hours a day. The key is not to have downtime.

There's no need to fiddle around with twin headsails, Twistlerig or expensive new asymmetric spinnaker; a main and poled-out genoa 'barn doors' set-up will do fine. In fact, me and my other half won the ARC rally overall one year after sailing wing-and-wing almost the entire way.

Just keep an eye out for chafe, and be sure to set up a preventer on the boom and a foreguy topping lift and downhaul when poling out the headsail so you can furl in quickly when that night-time squall hits (which it will).

3. Revise your energy equation

Whatever power you think you'll use on an ocean crossing, add on another third. Nav lights, radar, radio scheds, autopilot, watermaker, fridge, freezer, computer, fans - you name it, they all add up.

Increase the means of generating electricity with a diesel generator, larger alternator, solar panels and/or a towed turbineandlook at means of making savings, such as fitting LED lights.

4. Get some extra training

Ocean seamanship is more about fixing things and managing problems on board than navigation or routeing. Diesel engine maintenance, sea survival, medical and first aid training and courses run by manufacturers on servicing and maintaining their equipment are all invaluable preparation - for crew as well as skipper.

5. Make the most of your time out

Don't rush the opening stages of your year(s) off; enjoy the great summer cruising on the route down to the Canaries and other hopping-off points. The West Country, France, Northern Spain, Portugal and Madeira could be some of the best places you visit.

7. Go the long way round

Some people spend thousands on routeing software, and that's fine. But you don't need it and if you're not used to using Grib files and don't have polars for your boat, it's of dubious value.

The most reliable passage plan is the simplest and often the quickest: run your latitude down to around 20°N, 30°W before turning right, following the age-old advice to 'head south til the butter melts'.

Here are three reasons to favour this route:
You'll pick up the tradewinds earlier. They often don't kick in properly until halfway across on the rhumb line route.

You'll get nicer conditions. Sometimes the direct route is upwind after the start or there's an uneasy cross sea from a depression to the north

The extra distance is only between 200 and 300 miles

You'll tick off 2-3 degrees of latitude a day, so it will get warmer quicker

8. Take it steady

Don't go all-out at the beginning of a crossing. It takes around three days for a crew to get their sea legs and settle down into a routine.

Just as importantly, your boat will be fully provisioned, fuelled and watered and that's tonnes of extra displacement. The increased loads on the gear and rigging are significant, so throttle back and don't push too hard too early.

9. Prepare for gear failure

Be prepared for key equipment to fail, because sooner or later it will. If it's gear you normally rely on, like an autopilot or watermaker, have a contingency.

10. Don't fix your arrival date in the diary

Some seasons an Atlantic crossing is quick; others it's slow. The weather varies quite a bit this side of Christmas. So if you are fixated on a certain arrival day, you'll be set up for disappointment before you even leave.

Keep your plans open. Remember that the crossing is the adventure, not the arrival in the Caribbean.

And whatever you do, don't let crew book flights immediately after your estimated ETA - nothing sours the atmosphere more than a stressed person on a deadline champing to be on land."
*

Read more at http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/41680


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## MrPelicano

Had the opportunity last night to race on a boat that will never do the ARC or any other ocean crossing - an Ultra 30.










For those not familiar with the Ultra 30, the boat was designed and developed in the late 1990's as a way to bring the thrills and spills of high performance racing to the masses, and lure sponsorship and advertising so as to provide a livelihood for professional sailors. All of these very good goals, which we now see pursued by Larry Ellison and Russell Couts in the current AC72 / AC45 efforts.

The boat itself is basically a carbon skiff with a massive square-top main, 408 kg / 900 lbs of lead bulb on a lifting keel, and aluminium racks for hiking. There are no winches, and the main is trimmed 49er style from the boom. As one can imagine, the boat is extremely weight-sensitive, requiring constant movement to keep it from tipping over. Don't want to guess what the angle of vanishing stability is, but I can tell you it would be very easy to find out in a hurry - if you don't mind swimming. 

The boat I sailed on is the reincarnation of the boat in the photo - Team Zombie - relocated to Long Island Sound and de-tuned for casual beer can racing (which seems ridiculous, once you see the boat). The trapezes are now gone (forbidden under LIS PHRF) and the spinnaker is only deployed when fooling around in lighter breeze.

To reduce windage, the nets were removed from the hiking racks, which now sport hiking straps in the absence of trapezes. This makes getting in and out quite the adventure, while there is nothing quite like the feeling of hiking on a hard aluminium tube covered in anti-skid, with no support for thighs or buttocks. Made me appreciate the luxurious comfort of Laser hiking. 

For all that, we saw a top speed (SOG) of 10.1 knots last night, in about 8-12 knots of breeze, and were doing steady 7.0-7.5 knots in 6-9 knots close reaching. However, with a PHRF rating of 0.00, we fell victim to a well-sailed Farr 395 (a very nice boat in its own right, and quite quick in light air), a Beneteau 40.7 and a J122 (a Paulo favorite). Not sure if I'll be a regular crew on this boat, given my advanced age and declining health, but it was definitely a fun experience.


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## G1000

*Re: Probably the most beautiful 2013 boat: Pogo 40 S3*

How about Akilaria RC3 for this beauty pageant


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Probably the most beautiful 2013 boat: Pogo 40 S3*



G1000 said:


> How about Akilaria RC3 for this beauty pageant


I believe that the "Like" button needs to be replaced by a "Lust" button. These new generation Class 40 boats are the Bugatti Veyrons of yacht racing, IMHO.


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## PCP

*Mirabaud LX*



MrPelicano said:


> Had the opportunity last night to race on a boat that will never do the ARC or any other ocean crossing - an Ultra 30.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... Not sure if I'll be a regular crew on this boat, given my advanced age and declining health, but it was definitely a fun experience.


That seems like great fun. Not a boat for old guys like me but even so for a while it should be fantastic. There are many similar boats racing in Switzerland on the lakes.

The tendency for those boats is going on foils now. Look at the Mirabaud: 5K wind, 12K speed










Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Akilaria RC3*



G1000 said:


> How about Akilaria RC3 for this beauty pageant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at it we would say it is the same designer. It is not, this one is a Marc Lombard design. It only shows they are all going along the same path in what regards hull/transom design and low free-board. Marc Lombard makes some very interesting comments about that path and the boat performance:
> 
> *"The Akilaria 40 RC3 is a completely new boat.*The design is based on the background provided by the previous Akilarias RC1 and RC2, but the hull, deck, appendages, mast and interior have been redesigned.*The objective is to provide a fully optimised boat regarding the current Class 40 rules and race program.*This includes the Global Ocean Race, for which the ISAF Category 0 is required.
> 
> Hull optimization was carried out using numerical simulation tools.*Various cases were studied, varying heel and leeway angles, speeds, water ballast and sail configurations.*The starting point of the design was to match the performance of RC2 downwind in light to medium winds.*The RC2 is indeed among the fastest in those conditions.*This constraint sets maximum values in terms of waterline beam, transom immersion and volume of the forward part of the hull."*
> 
> 
> 
> *"The forward freeboard is slightly increased in comparison to the RC2 to enhance water deflection.*The aft freeboard is reduced in order to keep a
> mean freeboard close to the minimum allowed by the rule.*A large 45 degrees
> chamfer on the sheer line is designed in order to further reduce the apparent
> stability during the 90 degrees stability test.*In the class 40 rule, a low freeboard is essential for optimal performance.*Indeed, the test limiting the stability is performed at 90 degrees of heel.*
> 
> At this extreme heel angle, the lower the freeboard, the lower the center of gravity can be shifted for the same measured stability. A lower CG provides higher stability at conventional sailing heel angles and a better dynamic behavior.*A boat providing the "minimum weight and maximum stiffness, measured by the rule" but not the minimum freeboard is therefore not optimum."
> *
> http://www.akilaria.com/Akilaria RC3 Brochure 2.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MrPelicano said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... These new generation Class 40 boats are the Bugatti Veyrons of yacht racing, IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really they are a lot more amazing: That would be only true if you could buy a Bugatti Veyron for the price of a Mercedes or BMW sedan...and the Bugatti costs 10 times more.
> 
> These 40class racers cost less than a 40ft Halberg-Rassy. That is only possible because the rule is designed to allow for inexpensive racers with a top speed potential. Very expensive materials, including Carbon are forbidden, except on the masts and spars.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo
Click to expand...


----------



## PCP

*AVS list.*

Many want to know the AVS of their boat or the AVS of the boat that they are interested in having. I had already explained that the AVS is just a part of the relevant information about boat stability and that a Stability curve would allow much more information (including AVS) but sometimes, specially in what regards older boats, none is available and this better than nothing. This is a STIX & AVS list held by IRS Rating Office:

http://www.ircrating.org/images/stories/pdf/stix_web_latest.xls


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Akilaria RC3*



PCP said:


> Not really they are a lot more amazing: That would be only true if you could buy a Bugatti Veyron for the price of a Mercedes or BMW sedan...and the Bugatti costs 10 times more.
> 
> These 40class racers cost less than a 40ft Halberg-Rassy. That is only possible because the rule is designed to allow for inexpensive racers with a top speed potential. Very expensive materials, including Carbon are forbidden, except on the masts and spars.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


True in terms of cost, but still a good comparison in terms of "sexy" and I think the Bugatti may be the sexiest car ever built.

Which raises the question: With respect to monohulls, if one was not constrained by either money, materials or a design rule, what would the most high performance boat look like at 40 feet? I am thinking that the Class 40s, even with those constraints, are probably not far from the ideal. Presumably, building them in carbon and adding canting keels would further increase performance, but what else could be done?

Can anyone think of another boat of this length that would be faster all around - i.e., upwind and downwind?


----------



## Mr W

*Minis...*

Hi guys!

While we're talking about Class 40's, I figured this video of mini 650's might be appropriate. Enjoy!






//Mr W


----------



## MrPelicano

Yes, that Mini 6.5 practice session video has been making the rounds. The guys from Open Sailing, out in Los Angeles, posted it on Facebook earlier today, then a friend of mine in Canada, with whom I've raced a 6.50 in the past, sent it to me in e-mail. Great stuff and great little boats. If I lived in Europe, I would have one in a heartbeat. But can't justify it for myself here in the U.S.

As Paulo has posted a few weeks ago, there are currently two French sailors circumnavigating their Mini 6.5 doublehanded. I believe they just reached the Galapagos Islands, after passing through the Panama Canal, but haven't checked in the last week. And, of course, Alessandro Di Benedetto did a circumnavigation non-stop around the Capes in a modified Mini a few years back.

For me, the Mini Class represents everything I love about sailing.


----------



## PCP

*Things I don't like...*

Do you guys saw what happened to OSTAR, once a great big race and the first solo Transat?

Single-Handed Trans-Atlantic Race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now it is this:

Skipper Profiles | OSTAR 2013

Old men, old racing boats with the exception of an Open 50 (that has not impressed on major races) and a class 40 (with a 73 old skipper). The others are mostly just old boats, including a Formosa 42.

I have nothing against sailors amusing themselves racing, I love solo racing and any form of competition, even if it is with oneself, but can this be called an OSTAR race?

I mean, this is the race that once was won by some of the greatest skippers of their time on the fastest solo boats??!!!: Éric Tabarly, Geoffrey Williams, Alain Colas, Philip Weld, Yvon Fauconnier, Jean Yves Terlain, Loïck Peyron, Francis Joyon, Ellen MacArthur, Michel Desjoyeaux and Mike Golding all have won it on the most modern and fast racers of their time.....and now it is raced with 25 year old multihulls, Formosas, Saltram, Contessas and third rate skippers?

Please respect what was once a great race and the best of the best that won it and call this race anything else but OSTAR

....


----------



## robelz

Hey Paulo,
is the performance of a class 950 racer somehow comparable to a JPK 960? Will there be big differences in comfort?


----------



## robelz

Archambault A13: IRC-Racer von Archambault - Yachten + Jollen | YACHT.DE

A 13m IRC rocket by Archambault. Plans with 15 knots of wind and is affordable...


----------



## PCP

*A13*



robelz said:


> Archambault A13: IRC-Racer von Archambault - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
> 
> A 13m IRC rocket by Archambault. Plans with 15 knots of wind and is affordable...


Looks great...and fast















Specifications Archambault A13

LOA (hull length) 13.10 m
Width 4.20m 
Depth (T-keel) 2.60 m
Weight 6,7 t
Sail area 105 m2
Spinnaker 176 m2

The IRC rating should be between 1.16 and 1.18 and the price 379,000 euro including carbon rig and VAT. The boat can have two wheel or a tiler configuration.

This one, contrary to the A35 and A40 will not be a cruiser racer but a race boat with a more schematic interior. The boat come with an head a simple galley and six bunks, the rest is pretty much open space.

It is a Joubert /Nivelt and the boat is designed to compete in iRC, offshore and inshore. That transom seems ultra wide but the boat has only as beam 4.2m while the two smaller 40 class racer posted before, with less 1M in lenght, have considerable more (about 4.5).

Joubert/Nivelt are the designers of the Archambault line and also the M34. I would say that they know very well how to make fast, competitive boats in IRC and also boats that can be sailed with a short crew and looking at the hull lines I would say this one is no exception. That Transom seems forgiving enough to short crew sailing.

Joubert-Nivelt Design - Architecte naval bateaux voiliers motor-yachts grands-yachts sailing-boats


----------



## PCP

*Re: Akilaria RC3*



MrPelicano said:


> True in terms of cost, but still a good comparison in terms of "sexy" and I think the Bugatti may be the sexiest car ever built.
> 
> Which raises the question: With respect to monohulls, if one was not constrained by either money, materials or a design rule, what would the most high performance boat look like at 40 feet? I am thinking that the Class 40s, even with those constraints, are probably not far from the ideal. Presumably, building them in carbon and adding canting keels would further increase performance, but what else could be done?
> 
> Can anyone think of another boat of this length that would be faster all around - i.e., upwind and downwind?


Regarding long range Ocean racing, with a crew yes (less beamier carbon race boats like a Farr 400 ot a Ker 40), with a duo or solo....only a similar design made in carbon (lighter) and with a canting keel. That would be an Open 40. Some were made but they were so expensive (several times the cost of a Class 40) and the differences in performance were not big enough to justify the difference in cost. Older Open40 have been beaten by new class40.

Of course If someone decided to make a solo circumnavigation race the wrong way (and that would be very interesting) then this boat would not be competitive and we would see less beamier boats...but not much I think. Something like a bigger JPK 10.10, maybe a bit narrower and with more B/D.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Class950 - JPK 960*



robelz said:


> Hey Paulo,
> is the performance of a class 950 racer somehow comparable to a JPK 960? Will there be big differences in comfort?


Regarding comfort I don't thing so, regarding speed yes. But one thing is speed other is handicap racing and I doubt very much a class950 could be raced to its rating on an inshore regatta race.

The Class950 are a kind of a reduced class40, both pointing to solo or short crew ocean racing and that' were they are competitive. On a regatta or smaller ocean race with a crew both boats would not be very competitive in what regards handicap racing and in some conditions, even on real time. You have just to look at the results of the Sidney Hobart (and upwind race with stormy seas) were in several years a Class40 never managed to beat the fastest First 40, that has a much smaller handicap.

Put both boats in a Transat and the class40 will smoke the First 40. Only on very particular conditions a class40 can be beaten by a boat like the First 40.



The Pogo 10.50 is a kind of civilized and just a bit bigger Class950.

I don't know of any Class 950 with a good cruising interior except the Mistral 950, a Lucas design. The boat is not as fast as the typical racing 950 but it is a great design with a very nice interior and a lifting keel:







The boat had raced the last Transat with a duo that included Lucas (the designer). They did not had strong winds and did not done as good as they expected, being beaten in real time by many boats including JPK 9.6, 10.10, A35 and Sunfast 32 but being the only boat of that type on the race it is impossible to know if that was due to the boat, crew or the limitations the boat was subjected. Note that a 9.50 has normally a rating that does not allow it to race the Transquadra so the boat was not sailing to its potential, having less sails and less sail area.

Look at this interesting report on the 9.50 site about that experience:

*The first Mistral 950 (Jean-Paul Le Breton) participated in the Transquadra 2011/2012 with François LUCAS. Disappointing result because the IRC rating is very detrimental to the 950 class: Penalized boat, main sail with slightly less area, only spinnakers for breeze. In short we needed the strong winds and this year the trade wind was unfortunately very soft. The only consolation was that we won 30 places in three days of decent constant trade winds!

The boat returned to France safely by sea in the hands of Franck AUSSEDAT, often in close and sometimes with winds of 40 knots and 4m waves. Since then the boat has cruised the South Brittany Coast: With its lifting keel, all ports and anchorages are open to him.

The next objective is to optimize the boat for the next Transquadra: A door opens in 2013 in the IRC for powerful boats, we will take advantage of it.
*

UnMistral 950 en Russie. Nouvel article - Classe 9.50

Some interesting comments by the one that won on the same race the class of "heavy cruisers" with a First 36,7. He calls F1 to JPK, Sunfast 32 and A31 and 35 and cruiser racers to more traditional and heavier boats like Grand Soleil 37

*"Super accueil !Monday, febr 13, approx noon time, after 15 days and some hours (details to follow later), Notabene crossed the finish line at Le Marin. Under a beautiful wind and sun, there people waiting with music, singing and applauses. ..

Finishing in the head of the race with a 'heavy' boat isn't something that was left unremarked for the competitors and the organisation. During 15 days on the head of the race, the F1-racers, had been surprised, or been questioning: what is Notabene still doing here ??? Or what the fu**k are they still, or once again, crossing our way ?

Imagine we hadn't broken that second spi boom... must have lost about 5 places ?

Anyway, we finished after the Grand Soleil 37 MUSIX, in the provisional ranking of the 'heavy weights' ( the cruiser-racers). But before another Grand Soleil 40 ana GS 37. Will this be enough to keep the second place after the on 'handicap racing' ?

Yesterday, after a first night of party, we received a provisional ranking overall with the handicap included. It seems that we are place 25 in the overall ranking (!!!) Before many Pogos and other F1 boats. Yes, we are proud! !
....

It is finally confirmed. Notabene wins in his class, the group of 20 cruiser-racers.
We couldn't believe we'll end up before the fasts Grand Soleils, but we beat the GS 40 with 9 min on the finish line ( after 15 days racing). With recalculating the handicap we even end up long before them.

Conclusions :

1 : The first places of the TQ , is a fight between ARCHAMBAULT and JPK, which JPK has obviously won this edition : a first place in double ( JPK 10.10) and a first in solo. 
2 : the 'heavy weights', cruiser-racers, could keep up with the F1 racers, due to winds under 20 knts in the first part of the race ( these boats go surfing as of 20 knts wind, with a big swell)
3. There is more and more Race in the Race ( F1, Pogos, Jeanneau 3200, criser-racers) which is good and will make the organisation think of having more categories next time."*

Final results are amazing ! | Notabene Transquadra 2012

For you to form a better idea here are the Transquadra results. I know it is a drag, you have to see real time results here:

Transquadra 2011-2012 | Transat solitaire et double réservée aux amateurs.

And then see the brand and type of boat here:

Transquadra 2011-2012 | Transat solitaire et double réservée aux amateurs.

You can also look at the IRC files of some boats, the one from the class950 Mistral950 (with the normal rating):

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/13011a.pdf

A Prototype class 9.50:

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/13003a.pdf

Two A35:

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/13069a.pdf

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/13061a.pdf

Two JPK 10.10

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/13048a.pdf

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12048a.pdf

Two JPK 960:

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12069a.pdf

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/12088a.pdf

A A 31:

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/public/habitable1/orc/certifs/pdf/13010c.pdf

and some posts about the Transaquadra with relevant information:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-221.html#post830223

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-222.html#post830612

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-224.html#post834742

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-272.html#post869548

Bottom point, a class950 is a much more powerful boat than a JPK 960 with a much bigger IRC handicap. However IRC penalises too much the boat and it will not be competitive in regattas. On normal conditions it will be faster than a JPK 960 on a Transat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

The Akilaria e.g. seems to have a much nicer interior: Akilaria Class 40 at Maine Yacht Center

If IRC and ORCi are no criteria, the 950s look like highest potential cruisers...


----------



## PCP

*Traditional boats: Rabelo*

We have been talking lately about many fast and modern sailboats, let's talk about a real old and slow one, I mean slow when he is not going downriver on a mountain river with rapids. The origin is unknown, probably Celtic in its building techniques that are very old. The boat is started by the bottom, then the hull and only then the structure:






The boat was used to transport wine, the best wine, Porto wine, from the high river to the main North city in Portugal, Porto. Porto means port in Portuguese so it is a no name city but that is another story. Porto is obviously a Port and in old times one of the main ones and for the region the wine exportation was always important as an economic activity.

On a side track, the vines were planted on the high slopes of the river Douro and thousands of years of work created a men made scenery of rare beauty that today is classified by UNESCO as a World Heritage site.

Getting back to the boat have a look at min 3.15 of this movie and you will see that after all it was a fast (and scary) boat to sail.






Now they race them, once in a year and they take that very seriously as with any other "racing" boat


----------



## PCP

*Akilaria 950 / Pogo 10.50*



robelz said:


> The Akilaria e.g. seems to have a much nicer interior: Akilaria Class 40 at Maine Yacht Center
> 
> If IRC and ORCi are no criteria, the 950s look like highest potential cruisers...


I don't agree. I had hopped that the Akilaria could follow Pogo steps in what regards a good cruising interior but they never got their number right. Have a better look and compare the two Class950 interiors in what regards light and quality:





Sure, the Akilaria 950 is fast:











But there are a reason for the Pogo 10.50 to be the much more popular (and sell much more) than the Akilaria. Even bigger it is less expensive, it has a better interior and it is fast too.


----------



## PCP

*2013 Round the Island Race, a favorite of mine.*

You have to love this race: 1459 sailboats of all types and sizes from modern to ultra modern passing by classic and traditional . The big winner in real time: A AC45 that beat the race record by 12 minutes. 40 minutes later comes the 100ft Leopard pursued by a little Seacart 30 trimaran (10m later). 18 m later comes an Open 60.

Tomorrow I will get back to it. For now, some great movies, as usual on this race:


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Elan 320*

Or maybe I should say half new? because even if they don't say it it seems to me a Elan 310 MKII. I mean all is new except the hull. The boat looks good even if it is to soon to say about the interior but if the new 400 is a reference it will be a nice one.

The previous boat was already a great little performance cruiser: Great cruising interior, fast to cruise and to do some club racing even if the boat was beaten at high level by boats like the A31 ot JPK 960, that are a bit more expensive anyway. The boat is slightly lighter than the 310 (60kg).

TheElan 320 comes also with two wheels as standard. I hope that they can also offer a rudder that makes a lot more sense in my opinion.











The "older2 310:


----------



## robelz

Is the Yaka 9.50 the civil version of the dingo 9.50? What about its cruising potential? Speed potential?


----------



## MrPelicano

Two quick observations about the Pogo 10.50 Mediterranean cruise video:

1. Is it just my imagination or does everyone sailing in Europe wear brand new, top-of-the-line foul weather gear? It seems like in every video I see, people are kitted out in crisp new Musto offshore gear (or Gaastra or SLAM or HH)! I would be embarrassed to show up at a European regatta in my 13-year old Jeantex foulies (a company that is already out of business) and worn out Sperry sea boots. 

2. When I finally get around to doing long-distance cruising, I will make sure to have at least one French crew on board, so that we are always eating well and drinking plenty of red wine. Those guys on the Pogo 10.50 were going in style and having too much fun. 

In the meantime, the more I read the Interesting Boats forum, the harder it is becoming to choose the right boat for performance cruising. Once again, I blame the Europeans for designing and building one amazing boat after another, each one intriguing and enticing. I love J/Boats as much as the next person, but there is nothing like this going on in the United States today. Indeed, without J/Boats I would say the U.S. boat building business would basically be dead.


----------



## Faster

MrPelicano said:


> ...... Indeed, without J/Boats I would say the U.S. boat building business would basically be dead.


To that I would only add the word 'innovative' boat building. But you're right. This thread has really opened our eyes to the huge activity in Europe, including unlikely places like Poland and others.

Shopping in Europe would almost be 'too much to choose from' and a tough decision.

Just noticed there's a Salona dealer in Seattle now, so maybe some more of these boats will be heading our way. Now all's left is to win a lottery...


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> ... When I finally get around to doing long-distance cruising, I will make sure to have at least one French crew on board, so that we are always eating well and drinking plenty of red wine. Those guys on the Pogo 10.50 were going in style and having too much fun.
> 
> ... I love J/Boats as much as the next person, but there is nothing like this going on in the United States today. Indeed, without J/Boats I would say the U.S. boat building business would basically be dead.


You can get a Portuguese also. That's the same regarding wine. The first thing I have done on my previous boat, a German one, was to built a proper storage for wine bottles. This one is an Italian one so the place(s) were already there. Sometimes the most practical thing while at sea is to eat sandwich or simple food but any of those improves drastically with a good wine...and a good wine is easy to carry, easy to open and don't need a fridge so good wine is a must on any offshore cruise.

Regarding the J I guess they survive in America because they are bought now mostly by Europeans (some are only made here). You can find plenty of older Jboats on the US (and fewer in Europe) but regarding newer boats it seems to me that it is the inverse.

That's the best compliment that can be made to Jboats, American boats that can survive and be very successful in such a competitive market as the European one. For what I heard the J70 is not only a big hit in Europe but in the States too. Maybe things are changing?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> ...
> Just noticed there's a Salona dealer in Seattle now, so maybe some more of these boats will be heading our way. Now all's left is to win a lottery...


On the present market used boats with few years are not so expensive here:

Salona 37 - "Dustom" - for SALE [kodmasin]

Just pick one here and sail it to the States.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Around the Island race, some more:*

The history:






and some more nice images:


----------



## PCP

*Azuree 46...I like this one*

The boat is a lot less beamier than the 400 (Ceccarelli designed). Both boats have about the same beam and being the 46 designed by Rob Humphreys I am pretty sure that it will have a better final stability than the 400. Humphreys likes to design seaworthy boats, with a good final stability and AVS. Even if they don't give the boat ballast I trust it will be adequate to that purpose.











Humphreys says about the Azuree 46:

*Having considered a shortlist of potential designers for their new Azuree model, Sirena Marine tasked us with the challenge of designing a new flagship for the range. The current models are exciting, twin-ruddered Open-style boats and share some philosophy with a development line we have pursued for a number of years, one that in our case derives from our work in the Open 60, Volvo 70 and Class 40 theaters.

We love this style of boat; it delivers a heady mix of excitement and excellent traction. If it was a car it would be one which could be thrown it into the corners at high speed in the knowledge that it would respond to the driver's most delicate touch - adrenaline and reassurance mixing in a rare infusion.

But... fast, exciting yet forgiving: these are qualities one can find in a dedicated, custom raceboat, and in themselves are not enough to enthuse the wider sailing sector. We needed to focus not just on performance per se, but on performance versus handicapping, under both IRC and ORC rules. We wanted to design a boat that could thrill in its sailing qualities but also have a chance of delivering some silverware, and with the Azuree 46 we believe we have a boat with well-rounded capability. Of course she will be fast and exhilarating downwind in a breeze, but at the same time powerful upwind in the same conditions, with her long waterline and easy lines giving her the feel and power of a larger yacht. And in the same, ambidextrous way we had to make sure she was no slouch in the light; her hull may be wide and powerful, but the upright immersed sections represent a surprisingly low wetted area form in order to minimise viscous drag and make the most of the Azuree 46's generous sail plan.

If it was a case of ticking boxes, that's a few of them addressed. But for many boat owners, performance and race-winning potential is only part of their lifestyle. For an immense number, sailing is also about the simple joys of just enjoying life on board, to have home-comforts at anchor as much as to have long-distance passagemaking as part of their potential itinerary. The Azuree 46 can hold its hand up as a very capable cruising yacht, as able to slog it round Ushant in the teeth of a South Westerly as to provide exuberant comfort at anchor in Göcek, where the enormous cockpit transforms itself into an enveloping reclining area.

The Azuree 46 is a thoughtfully blended cocktail, sensitively composed and definitely shaken, not stirred.*

and it seems that Humphreys like it too

The boat is light (10450kg) with a big draft (2.60m), not too beamy (4.25m) and is built by a company that have built already several boats that proved not only fast but reliable. The boat is built in Turkey so the prices are an agreeable surprise. The interiors are of good quality and this one seems to have a nice interior distribution with a big garage and lots of storage space.

It seems an interesting one to me


----------



## MrPelicano

I bet J.P. Morgan Asset Management is delighted that Ben Ainslie set a new multi-hull record in his J.P. Morgan Asset Management AC45. That's giving the sponsor their money's worth.

And speaking of Ben Ainslie, it's quite a tribute to his incredible sailing skills that he could step out of the Finn class into a high performance multi-hull and start winning races right from the start. I suspect Oracle Racing gave him a program just to make sure they didn't have to face him at some point driving for one of the AC72 challengers. 

While I've had the opportunity of racing in the Solent (on a Rob Humphreys designed boat, by coincidence), I've never done the Round the Island Race before. I need to add it to my bucket list, along with the Fastnet Race.

I thought there might be some big boat racing on my schedule this year (aside from the casual Ultra 30 outings), but so far it looks like it will be all Laser racing and perhaps a few Viper 640 regattas. Hoping to get back to San Francisco in September for the Rolex St. Francis YC Big Boat Series, if only to add to my Mt. Gay hat collection.


----------



## MrPelicano

Paulo - If adding a Portuguese to my crew list will contribute to a wine-friendly boat, then I'll be sure to do so. As it turns out, I spend a fair amount of time up in the New Bedford area, which has a vibrant Portuguese community, primarily due to the commerical fishing industry, which employs many people originally from the Azores. For this reason, I am able to consume quite a lot of Portuguese food and wine (from the Douro region, of course). My first time visiting, I tried Antonio's, one of the many Portuguese restaurants, and was initially surprised to find the menu different from what I was used to in California (there is a superb Portuguese restaurant in the town I lived, Sonoma, called La Salette). But then I realized that the cuisine reflected the culture of the Azores, not mainland Portugal, so that is why it was unfamiliar. Nevertheless delicious, of course. Quite a few people from Brazil living in New Bedford, as well, probably because it's easy to be in a place where people speak the language.


----------



## PCP

*2013 Solitaire du Figaro, a great solo race.*

For the ones that don't know what it is about:

*The Solitaire du Figaro, previously called the Course de l'Aurore, is a solo multi-stage sailing race created in 1970 by Jean-Louis Guillemard and Jean-Michel Barrault. The unique character of the race, the presence of great solo sailors and its being open to amateurs, has made it one of the most cherished races in French sailing.....

The race is split into 4 stages varying from year to year, from the length of the French coast and making up a total of around 1,500 to 2,000 nautical miles (1,700 to 2,300 mi; 2,800 to 3,700 km) on average. Over the years the race has lasted between 10 and 13 days at sea.

The competitor is alone in the boat..

In 1991, the Solitaire du Figaro made the milestone of becoming a One-Design race. The race organizers chose the Figaro Bénéteau (now called Figaro Bénéteau I) designed by Group Finot and Jean Berret. Since 2003, a new design called Figaro Bénéteau II has been used, a modernized, more powerful version ( designed by Marc Lombard).*






This year they are 41. The first stage has begun in Bordeaux and will finish in Porto.

a movie that gives an idea about what it is this race about:






this year's edition teaser:






the "ambiance"and the public:






and the beginning of the race:






not as exciting as this one, from 2009:






You can follow here:

Le Figaro - La Solitaire

Sail-World.com : Solitaire du Figaro - Les caprices d?un fleuve

Le Figaro - La Solitaire


----------



## hannah2

MrPelicano said:


> Two quick observations about the Pogo 10.50 Mediterranean cruise video:
> 
> 1. Is it just my imagination or does everyone sailing in Europe wear brand new, top-of-the-line foul weather gear? It seems like in every video I see, people are kitted out in crisp new Musto offshore gear (or Gaastra or SLAM or HH)! I would be embarrassed to show up at a European regatta in my 13-year old Jeantex foulies (a company that is already out of business) and worn out Sperry sea boots.
> 
> 2. When I finally get around to doing long-distance cruising, I will make sure to have at least one French crew on board, so that we are always eating well and drinking plenty of red wine. Those guys on the Pogo 10.50 were going in style and having too much fun.
> 
> In the meantime, the more I read the Interesting Boats forum, the harder it is becoming to choose the right boat for performance cruising. Once again, I blame the Europeans for designing and building one amazing boat after another, each one intriguing and enticing. I love J/Boats as much as the next person, but there is nothing like this going on in the United States today. Indeed, without J/Boats I would say the U.S. boat building business would basically be dead.


When I went over to France to look at the Boreal 44 a couple years ago and I was looking through all the locker spaces I had to ask what all the holes in the shelves were for. The reply was was obvious to most, " It is to store your wine." Did I feel American as I said, "How does box wine fit in a round hole." 

Even with all the holes in perfectly good shelves we bought a Boreal 44.

I look forward to a pleasant eating and drinking orgy in Portugal this September when RC LOUISE heads south from Brittany. And I'm pleased to say my wife speaks Portuguese from her years as a doctor in East Africa. I will be emailing Paulo about the finer places to eat along the coast.

Mr Pelicano,

Coming originally from Weymouth, MA. and from a commercial fishing family that was not Portuguese I always enjoyed the bar brawls on the deep south shore. I walk into the bar, the Portuguese fishermen would recognize you and bingo, black eye and some blood and then buying each other drinks.


----------



## outbound

My wife comes from Weymouth as well. Salty girls. We are South Shore people as well. Once the stick was put in it was uncertain if the tricolor was working well. Builder went up to look at it. Once he came down she said "What's it like up there? I want to go up" and she did. The locker behind the center back cushion of our Outbound folds down exposing a wine locker ( with cut out holes for the bottles). The back of the locker door becomes a convenient shelf. Good food and one glass can be a morale booster coming off watch.


----------



## PCP

*Traditional boats : Baleeiros*



hannah2 said:


> .....
> I look forward to a pleasant eating and drinking orgy in Portugal this September when RC LOUISE heads south from Brittany. And I'm pleased to say my wife speaks Portuguese from her years as a doctor in East Africa. I will be emailing Paulo about the finer places to eat along the coast.
> 
> .... I always enjoyed the bar brawls on the deep south shore. I walk into the bar, the Portuguese fishermen would recognize you and bingo, black eye and some blood and then buying each other drinks.


Steve, your wife got my consideration. it seems to be one of those souls that like to help the ones that need help. Mozambique is a beautiful country with very nice people. Some of my friends had born there and i have family working there. If your wife does not know him and likes to read talke her about this guy:

Mia Couto â€" WikipÃ©dia, a enciclopÃ©dia livre

We won this year's "Camões" prize that is attributed yearly to the one that is considered the bets writer of Portuguese literature. He is a citizen of Mozambique and I love the way he writes. Nobody describes Africa the way he does. He is white but reading his books you would swear he is black and native...and native he is

This is some poetry even if most of his work is not poetry unless poetry can be written as of it was mot poetry. Mostly shot stories about people and nature.

http://pensador.uol.com.br/autor/mia_couto/

What's that about Portuguese in bar brawls? normally Portuguese are kind of self minded type of guys. They can be though and a pain in the ass but only after being pissed...a lot.

I am going away on the middle of this week and I intend to be away from internet most of the time bit I will try to find time to send you a PM with some suggestions of places to visit and wine and food to eat.



MrPelicano said:


> Paulo - If adding a Portuguese to my crew list will contribute to a wine-friendly boat, then I'll be sure to do so. As it turns out, I spend a fair amount of time up in the New Bedford area, which has a vibrant Portuguese community, primarily due to the commerical fishing industry, which employs many people originally from the Azores. ....


Mr Pelicano,

The beginning of the Portuguese community in new Bedford had to do with whaling fishing. One of the traditional economic activities in Azores was whale fishing and they went doing it as a traditional economic activity till some decades ago. Being New Bedford an industrialized whaling fishing center it attracted whale fishers from Azores looking for a better pay.

On Azores they had done it always on the traditional whaling small sailing boats without any support of bigger boats. The boats were developed by the Basques, the ones the ones that first hunted them on the west.

Today they sail and race the boats for fun:


----------



## EricKLYC

MrPelicano said:


> Is it just my imagination or does everyone sailing in Europe wear brand new, top-of-the-line foul weather gear? It seems like in every video I see, people are kitted out in crisp new Musto offshore gear (or Gaastra or SLAM or HH)! I would be embarrassed to show up at a European regatta in my 13-year old Jeantex foulies (a company that is already out of business) and worn out Sperry sea boots.  (


Foulies that last more than a few years seem to be bad for business  ...


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: 2013 Solitaire du Figaro, a great solo race.*



PCP said:


> For the ones that don't know what it is about:
> 
> *The Solitaire du Figaro, previously called the Course de l'Aurore, is a solo multi-stage sailing race created in 1970 by Jean-Louis Guillemard and Jean-Michel Barrault. The unique character of the race, the presence of great solo sailors and its being open to amateurs, has made it one of the most cherished races in French sailing.....
> 
> The race is split into 4 stages varying from year to year, from the length of the French coast and making up a total of around 1,500 to 2,000 nautical miles (1,700 to 2,300 mi; 2,800 to 3,700 km) on average. Over the years the race has lasted between 10 and 13 days at sea.*


*

Yes indeed. I was very much looking forward to this race, though as you say the start of Leg 1 was not all that exciting yesterday - light conditions as the fleet beat down the river to the Bay of Biscay. The list of competitors is a who's who of major talent, including Yann Elies and Michel Desjoyeux (currently in first and second place), Adrien Hardy, Armel Le Cléac'h (finished second in the Vendée Globe this year), Fredric Duthil, and on and on. This should be a really good event and, so far, it is living up to it - the bulk of the fleet remains clustered within 0-3 miles of each other, after almost 24 hours of racing, in mostly light, downwind conditions (after they got out of the Garonne / Girdonde rivers).

Just to give an idea of how mainstream this is in France, the title sponsor this year is Eric Bompard ("Irresistible Cashmeres"), a well-known brand of fashion wear for women, men and children. Not dissimilar to Hugo Boss sponsoring Alex Thomson's Open 60 campaign, but this is an entire race series. To have something comparable for a sailing event in North America is unthinkable - though perhaps I'm wrong: I believe Nautica sponsors the U.S. Sailing Team for apparel and Nautica Watches was one of the sponsors at Key West Race Week. But I still think the point is valid. The Solitaire de Figaro is about as mainstream a sporting event in France as you could possibly have. And just wait a few more weeks when the Tour de France a la Voile kicks off. 

Lest you think that all I do is complain, let me say that I am extremely pleased with the number and quality of Laser regattas scheduled for the Northeast this year. From June to October we will have the Atlantic Coast Championship, the New England Championship, the North American Championship, the North American Masters Championship, the Atlantic Coast Masters Championship, Buzzards Bay, Hyannis, and Sail Newport (and I didn't even mention all the smaller, local regattas). All of these events will attract very big fleets - over 100 boats in many cases - with solid sponsorship and good race organization. It is only when you step up to keel boats that things get depressing and you must then turn to Europe and Australia/NZ for real excitement.*


----------



## PCP

*2013 Solitaire du Figaro, a great solo race.*



MrPelicano said:


> Yes indeed. I was very much looking forward to this race, though as you say the start of Leg 1 was not all that exciting yesterday - light conditions as the fleet beat down the river to the Bay of Biscay. The list of competitors is a who's who of major talent, including Yann Elies and Michel Desjoyeux (currently in first and second place), Adrien Hardy, Armel Le Cléac'h (finished second in the Vendée Globe this year), Fredric Duthil, and on and on. This should be a really good event and, so far, it is living up to it - the bulk of the fleet remains clustered within 0-3 miles of each other, after almost 24 hours of racing, in mostly light, downwind conditions (after they got out of the Garonne / Girdonde rivers).
> ...


Yes the level is incredibly high. It would to be expected that major champions like Michel Desjoyeaux (two times Vendee winner) or Armel le Cleach that know is racing big multihulls would not be interested in putting is status on the open fighting on smaller series with young talents and true specialists, like Morvan. They don't care they want to prove they are good, in any kind of boat, not by past victories but for what they can do know. That's the spirit

I know that the level is incredible high because last year a Portuguese champion sailed the Figaro series. He came from the minis where we won several races including the big transat and on the Figaro he was just average, never managing to win a race. The best he could do was coming second on a leg. He leaded several legs but would end up to make some small mistake that pull him to 3th or 4th. Here you can see him on the day he managed 2th. He was beaten over the line by...François Gabart, the winner of the last Vendee globe.






They are almost all professionals and any small mistake and it would be impossible to recover) as the boat is extraordinarily technical to sail and very small variations in sail trim are very important.

Back to the race, it seems that Armel is trying a different tactical approach, nearer the coast as opposed to Nicol a guy that likes to sail in higher winds and are going to look for them.

Le Figaro - La Solitaire

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Yaka and Dingo*



robelz said:


> Is the Yaka 9.50 the civil version of the dingo 9.50? What about its cruising potential? Speed potential?


Marée Haute - Dingo 9.50

Marée Haute - Yaka 9.50

Yes, that's right. The Yaka can have a twin keel configuration but I never saw a Yaka or Dingo 9.50 and I don't know if any was built.

The Yaka and Dingo 6.50 were built.

Here the Yaka 6.50:















And the Dingo 6.50:





You can see more pictures here:

Ocean racing sailboat (class mini 6.50) - D2 6.50 - 6.5m - 21' 4"ft - Marée Haute

Both boats are designed by Rolland.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

The Dingo 6.5 is a production series Mini, and has been known to be somewhat competitive in the right hands, though that class is dominated by the Pogo 2, among series boats.

I take it that Yaka is just a more civilized, cruiser-friendly Dingo 6.5, with the twin keels giving it the ability to dry out with the tide. 

It would be natural to want to make larger versions of each, I suppose, though it sure seems that space is getting a bit crowded.

As I was taking my midday walk, a short time ago, I came to the conclusion that I will need to schedule a trip to Europe next year to visit the various yards and get a first hand look at the boats that are tempting me, including the Malango 888 and 999, the SeaScape 27, the Archambault 31 (and the new 35 by then), the Dehler 32 and 38, and who knows what else, since in 12 months I expect to see even more new, enticing interesting boats.

Fortunately, this summer I'll get a first-hand look at the soon-to-be-launched J/88!










Now excuse me while I try to scrounge a ride for the 2013 Melges 24 Worlds, in San Francisco.


----------



## PCP

*Jpk 10.10*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> As I was taking my midday walk, a short time ago, I came to the conclusion that I will need to schedule a trip to Europe next year to visit the various yards and get a first hand look at the boats that are tempting me, including the Malango 888 and 999, the SeaScape 27, the Archambault 31 (and the new 35 by then), the Dehler 32 and 38, and who knows what else, since in 12 months I expect to see even more new, enticing interesting boats.
> 
> ...


You should not forget the JPK 10.10 and if you are considering a 35/36ft, the new Sunfast 3600 and the JPK 10.80. The two last are still being built and we can only speculate about the performance, but regarding the JPK 10.10, that's a fact.

The Round the Island race with about 1500 sailboats and many top and well sailed boats is a very valuable source of information. As it is a around an Island they will get wind over all directions so the information does not privilege upwind or downwind sailing.

I have started looking at the results and one of the first things that call my attention was the incredibly good JPK 10.10 performance and not only in relative terms since the only two racing made 1st and 2nd in its class but also in absolute terms. Their asolute performance in real time was even more impressive: The fastest has made it in 6h 35m and the other one in 6h 45m. There was plenty J111 racing and I have no doubt that some of them were very well sailed. The fastest had done it in 6h 35m all the others, and they were much more than the JPK, had done a lot worst.

Now, the J111 is not only 1m longer as it is much of a race boat with a schematic interior while the JPK 10.10, while being racing oriented has a nice cruising interior for a top cruiser racer. Besides that the JPK 10.10 is forgiven enough to be solo raced and that would not be the case of the J111, specially downwind.

Look at both boats, first the JPK 10.10 and don't forget that the JPK is more than 3ft smaller and less expensive:

The JPK 10.10:



The J 111:





Now, I am not saying bad things about the J 111, a boat I like very much, a great and very fast one, just comparing its performance with the JPK 10.10 on this race.

Just compare it with the times done by more conventional cruiser racers. You can compare the JPK 10.10 (a 10m boat) with the times of the typical 12m modern performance cruiser...and be prepared for a surprise

Download this spread sheet:

J.P. Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race - Results for the 2013 race

And I let you with Zulu, anoter JPK 10.10 winning another major race some days ago, this one a different one, a regatta. Yes this boat wins offshore races, regattas, solo races and besides that it has an interior that allow it to cruise. I would say that is difficult to do better.

Chapeau to the designer, J. Valer.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sunfast 3600 - JPK 1080*

And since we talked about those two, that are among the most waited boats, let's see what we have more about them.

On Jeanneau they have been promoting the Sunfast 3600 releasing new virtual images...and nice ones:





















On the JPK not so much but even so, some better images:







Both boats are pointing to the Transquadra mainly and IRC racing as a second option but in what regards cruising it seems to me that, as usual, the JPK would have a better interior and not only in quality but by design, specially in what regards the galley and also in what regards storage. Not a question of space but while that storage space on the Sunfast near the bow can be great for head sails, it is not practical for cruising. The space on the cockpit floor seems bigger but the interior aft cabin of the JPK as storage space seems a better overall option to me.

The SunFast:



The JPK:


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Sunfast 3600 - JPK 1080*



PCP said:


> Both boats are pointing to the Transquadra mainly and IRC racing as a second option but in what regards cruising it seems to me that, as usual, the JPK would have a better interior and not only in quality but by design, specially in what regards the galley and also in what regards storage. Not a question of space but while that storage space on the Sunfast near the bow can be great for head sails, it is not practical for cruising. The space on the cockpit floor seems bigger but the interior aft cabin of the JPK as storage space seems a better overall option to me.
> 
> The SunFast:
> 
> 
> 
> The JPK:


Both look like very nice designs indeed, Paulo.

They are relatively lightweight and infused sandwich constructions with a comparable and quite high B/D ratio, but the JPK carries 10% more sail for exactly the same hull length. 
JPK uses vinylester as resin, resulting in better stiffness and resistance to osmosis (somewhere between the cheaper polyester and the much more expensive epoxy).

I can't find any information about the keel shape of the Sun Fast, which I find very strange because this is an essential feature for clearly performance oriented boats such as these. So I suppose it will have the same bulb shape the 3200 has?
JPK announces a mixed cast iron/lead keel, straight or with a bulb (option). 
Neither builder foresees a retractable or swinging keel, probably because of their racing ambitions. But for cruising the fixed 2.20m draft of both yachts can be quite restrictive for a 36 footer.

I much prefer the retractable bowsprit on the JPK because it is much longer and thus more efficient to carry asymmetric or code sails than the fixed version on the Sun Fast. The latter is cheaper to build but makes boarding when moored bow-to almost impossible without a catway and adds to berthing costs.

The forward storing space on the Sun Fast is probably dictated by the much larger cockpit, bringing the saloon a little forward and leaving insufficient space for a livable front cabin. Apart from the saloon, sleeping is therefore restricted to two aft cabins, with probably very cramped space above the berths because of the very short cockpit seating's on both designs. Racing crews don't like cockpit seating's at all but cruisers certainly do and they also give air and volume to the underlying cabin(s), which is an important feature regarding actual comfort, not only visually .
So in my opinion only the JPK is offering a sufficiently comfortable and dedicated sleeping cabin.
Although I must admit carrying all the extra sails far outside of the keel line disturbs the lateral weight balance, especially on light boats (that's why I only use the port water tank on our Pogo ) and transporting them through the heads, cabin, cockpit and then all the way to the front deck every time is much, much more laborious than through a deck hatch right up front. But also there you don't want to carry much weight .

At the drawing stage I already very much like the coach roof design of the JPK. It gives headroom where it is most needed (cabin entry, galley and nav station, hopefully with frontal view!), makes for easy circulation on deck (outboard chainplates mean you must pass below the lowers) and allows a transversal solent rail for better upwind performance.

So at this stage I personally also prefer the design of the JPK from a cruiser/racer point of view, but certainly await the tests and reviews on the water before making an educated judgment. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" and as we all know, personal tastes can be very, very different .

Kind regards,

Eric


----------



## Edward3

Per Jeanneau's 3600 Inventory/Technical sheet:
Keel mixed lead / iron with an epoxy surface treatment
As previously stated, keel will probably be similar to all other Jenneaus, L shapped


----------



## PCP

*Re: Sunfast 3600 - JPK 1080*



EricKLYC said:


> ...
> .comparable and quite high B/D ratio, but the JPK carries 10% more sail for exactly the same hull length.


Probably you are right (the Sunfast sail area consider a genoa) but the numbers I saw were pretty close: JPK 72m2, Sunfast 69 m2. As the Sun fast is lighter (4500kg to 4800kg) has a similar draft (less 5cms), more B/D ratio but less 10cm of beam, regarding R/M for weight and wet surface it should be very close and I would say that the performances will be very similar.

http://www.jeanneau.com/medias/CMS/...oat-Sun-Fast-3600_Brochure_20130327164807.pdf

JPK



EricKLYC said:


> .
> .... But for cruising the fixed 2.20m draft of both yachts can be quite restrictive for a 36 footer.
> 
> .
> 
> At the drawing stage I already very much like the coach roof design of the JPK. It gives headroom where it is most needed (cabin entry, galley and nav station, hopefully with frontal view!), makes for easy circulation on deck (outboard stanchions mean you must pass below the lowers) and allows a transversal solent rail for better upwind performance.
> 
> So at this stage I personally also prefer the design of the JPK from a cruiser/racer point of view, but certainly await the tests and reviews on the water before making an educated judgment. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" and as we all know, personal tastes can be very, very different .
> 
> ..


Agree on the last part but regarding the 2.20m draft it is alright on a performance boat for most places, except when big tides are involved but that is rather the exception. Yes they are top performance cruiser-racers so it is normal a swing keel not to be considered (more drag).

You forget to mention on the JPK, as an advantage, those two watch posts for having an outside view when you sail the boat solo from the inside. I wonder how well it will work. On the racing version you can seat by both sides.

I thought that you were going to comment about the performance of the Pogo 12.50 on the "Round the Island race". Download the excel file and have a look, it was just great, I mean in real time because regarding handicap the Pogo will never be a fast boat. Fast on the water, slow on the paper

J.P. Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race - Results for the 2013 race

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

It is a drag race in Leg 1 of the Solitaire de Figaro, with the top 15 boats all within 2 miles of the leader, Alexis Loison. MichDej is 0.1 of a mile from Loison, although the wind appears to have gone very, very light as the sun sets and they transition to the evening breeze. This is racing at the highest level, and it looks like it will be a dog fight all the way to the finish line in Porto. I can just imagine a tacking / gybing duel between 5-6 boats within the last few km. Awesome! 

Le Figaro - La Solitaire


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Sunfast 3600 - JPK 1080*



PCP said:


> I thought that you were going to comment about the performance of the Pogo 12.50 on the "Round the Island race". Download the excel file and have a look, it was just great, I mean in real time because regarding handicap the Pogo will never be a fast boat. Fast on the water, slow on the paper
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Well, I will comment on the Pogo 12.50. IRC 0 was an incredibly difficult division to compete in, with all the heavy hitters - Leopard, three TP 52s, and a bunch of Ker 40s (even a Santa Cruz SC37 - ill-suited to any race involving upwind sailing). So to finish 14th in division (out of 56) in a comfy performance "cruiser" is quite the accomplishment. If I'm blasting along in my Ker 40 and see a bunch of guys sipping wine right behind me, I'd be on my mobile calling Jason Ker for an explanation. Admittedly, _Jinja_ is a British boat, so they were probably quaffing lager. 

While the JPK 1010's swept IRC 2B, it makes me wonder about their rating, since that division was filled with J/109s and J/105s. Is it realistic that a JPK 1010 and a J/109 have the same rating? That surprises me, though I think credit is due to the J/109 _Shadowfax_, which finished 3rd in 2B, 4th in Green and 17th overall in IRC. Says a lot about that design and/or how well it was sailed. The J/105 _Jelly Baby_ did pretty darn well themselves, correcting out to 36th overall in IRC, with a 4th in 2B and 7th in Green. You know they got their money's worth.

Speaking of the new Sunfast 36, while there's a lot to like about it as a race boat, I'm less-than-thrilled with the interior for performance cruising. It is well known by now I'm not a big fan of placing the heads in the bow - if I'm sailing shorthanded, and need to duck down for some quick relief at night, I don't want to have to make my way all the way to the bow, possibly in wet foulies, where I may have to endure a fair bit of bouncing about, and then make my way back through the cabin again. That's too much distance to cover. Also not impressed with the galley set-up. Yes, when you're racing all you need to be able to do is boil water for your dehydrated food and a cuppa. But for performance cruising, it is really inadequate and not easily adressed, given the presence of a second "seat" where a proper stove and cooler would ordinarily be.

I'll be heading up to New Bedford for the summer, in mid-July, and I'm thinking I need to get in touch with the J/109 owner I sailed with last summer and see if I can get out on his boat a bit more. The J/109 is still on my list and I may not have appreciated it enough when I first sailed on it. Need to re-think.


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Sunfast 3600 - JPK 1080*

Thanks Edward, the L-shaped bulb keel would be a plus for the Sun Fast because a bulb is an option on the JPK.



PCP said:


> I thought that you were going to comment about the performance of the Pogo 12.50 on the "Round the Island race". Download the excel file and have a look, it was just great, I mean in real time because regarding handicap the Pogo will never be a fast boat. Fast on the water, slow on the paper


Of course I'm also happy to comment about the performance of a Pogo 12.50 in the Round the Island Race. Finishing 89th of almost 1.400 yachts in compensated time, not bad at all indeed. 
Because as you very correctly stated, these boats are designed without any consideration for rating so they get the worst one can imagine and therefore become slow in the final ranking.
Since I only intend to race our Pogo from time to time in club races, we never bothered to register for an IRC rating. I only obtained a CR rating, a simple and low threshold system based on data input by the owner and without any measuring involved, intended for recreational racing. Last year our rating was the very highest in Belgium, even worse than an X-55 :hammer.
So these guys did a very good job at the Round the Island Race, knowing the course is in a loop and therefore also involves quite some upwind sailing. As we know, this is certainly not what these open designs like most. And let's not forget the 12.50 certainly isn't a class 40 but only a similar, strongly down tuned design intended for easy cruising.

I do admit we very much appreciate not really needing six crewmembers hiking on the toerail to make things work properly, Mr. Pelicano . 
In our case it's often just the two of us having an Abbey beer with cheese cubes, on the lee cockpit bench .

Regarding upwind performance we are gaining experience and making small progress every time, step by step. Apart from mainsail trim, extremely sensitive with this fatheaded beast of 65 m2, we learned to dump the solent much earlier than we did before (under 20 knts TWS) and set the staysail even before taking the second reef in the main. Plus 3 degrees and around one knot is very rewarding, although we will of course never be able to engage a luffing match with e.g. a First or Xp 40 . But I bet the VMG will now be very well comparable, only the tracks on the plotter remain quite frustrating because of the extra miles covered (albeit at a higher speed). 
And although we point a little higher and sail faster with the staysail, the hull also behaves significantly better, even against a chopped sea . 
I don't quite understand why. Paulo?

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> It is a drag race in Leg 1 of the Solitaire de Figaro, with the top 15 boats all within 2 miles of the leader, Alexis Loison. MichDej is 0.1 of a mile from Loison, although the wind appears to have gone very, very light as the sun sets and they transition to the evening breeze. This is racing at the highest level, and it looks like it will be a dog fight all the way to the finish line in Porto. I can just imagine a tacking / gybing duel between 5-6 boats within the last few km. Awesome!
> 
> Le Figaro - La Solitaire


Yes and in what regards solo sailing there is nothing worst than light wind /changeable wind sailing. They cannot sleep without losing a lot of time since the sails require constant trimming and because weak winds are seldom regular, auto pilot is also a bad option. These guys are going to get very tired

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

PCP said:


> Yes and in what regards solo sailing there is nothing worst than light wind /changeable wind sailing. They cannot sleep without losing a lot of time since the sails require constant trimming and because weak winds are seldom regular, auto pilot is also a bad option. These guys are going to get very tired
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


It's a nail-biter, as we say. Nicol and Rivet snuck by the fleet staying inshore, and the leaders fell quite a way back. If the breeze remains steady along the coast, it will be hard to catch the new leaders. Of course, the one constant in this race has been unsteady breeze... 

MichDes must have fallen into a huge hole, because he has dropped from 2nd down to 30th, in just a few hours. That has to be painful... and I know it is from experience. Of course, if the wind fills in from offshore, all bets are off. 

Getting back to the previous discussion about the JPK 1080 and Sunfast 3600, I think what most alarms me about what is going on in new boat development is how much prices have gone up. Both of those boats are going to be well over 150.000 € / $200,000, when you finally set off from the dock. I think my estimate for the Malango 999 was 145.000 € / $190,000 with sails, electronics, etc. (without VAT). Perhaps that's a bit high (or maybe not) but it certainly puts me off buying a new boat (a foolish idea regardless).


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> ...
> 
> MichDes must have fallen into a huge hole, because he has dropped from 2nd down to 30th, in just a few hours. That has to be painful... and I know it is from experience. Of course, if the wind fills in from offshore, all bets are off.


That is what I was talking about: Most of those guys are incredibly good and that is not usual on any race where there are some few top sailors or crews and the rest are just average or sometimes not even that. On the Figaro main races if someone makes a small strategic error...he is done, at least for the leg.



MrPelicano said:


> .
> 
> Getting back to the previous discussion about the JPK 1080 and Sunfast 3600, I think what most alarms me about what is going on in new boat development is how much prices have gone up. Both of those boats are going to be well over 150.000 € / $200,000, when you finally set off from the dock. I think my estimate for the Malango 999 was 145.000 € / $190,000 with sails, electronics, etc. (without VAT). Perhaps that's a bit high (or maybe not) but it certainly puts me off buying a new boat (a foolish idea regardless).


Buying a new boat is never a good business in what regards money but there is noting as having a new boat

Regarding the J109 it is a great boat and hugely popular in Europe as you can see by the number of them racing on that race. I don't think it makes sense to buy a new J109. The top racers that had them are changing or have changed them by the J111 that is one of the new hot racers in Europe.

Regarding the JPK 10.10 rating, that is just a bit lower than the one of the J109 you have to take in consideration that the JPK 10.10 has slightly less that 33ft and that the J109 has over 35ft. Regarding the performance of the JPK you have to take in consideration that they were only two while there were 32 J109. The chances were that in all those boats someone makes a fantastic race.

Well, in all those boats the better has done 10m more than the slower JPK...and they were only two. Most of them lost between 30 to 45m to the JPK.

Probably the excellent results had to do not only with the very good overall performance of the JPK 10.10 but mostly to having enough wind to plan downwind and their ability to plan with less wind than almost all other cruiser racers. What this boat has unusual is the ability to do that without losing time upwind or in light wind situations and of course, the ability to be a top performer solo or with a crew, regatta or ocean racing, not to mention a nice interior.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Sunfast 3600 - JPK 1080*



EricKLYC said:


> ..
> Of course I'm also happy to comment about the performance of a Pogo 12.50 in the Round the Island Race. Finishing 89th of almost 1.400 yachts in compensated time, not bad at all indeed.
> Because as you very correctly stated, these boats are designed without any consideration for rating so they get the worst one can imagine and therefore become slow in the final ranking.
> ...
> So these guys did a very good job at the Round the Island Race, knowing the course is in a loop and therefore also involves quite some upwind sailing. As we know, this is certainly not what these open designs like most. And let's not forget the 12.50 certainly isn't a class 40 but only a similar, strongly down tuned design intended for easy cruising.
> 
> ....
> Regarding upwind performance we are gaining experience and making small progress every time, step by step. Apart from mainsail trim, extremely sensitive with this fatheaded beast of 65 m2, we learned to dump the solent much earlier than we did before (under 20 knts TWS) and set the staysail even before taking the second reef in the main. Plus 3 degrees and around one knot is very rewarding, although we will of course never be able to engage a luffing match with e.g. a First or Xp 40 . But I bet the VMG will now be very well comparable, only the tracks on the plotter remain quite frustrating because of the extra miles covered (albeit at a higher speed).
> And although we point a little higher and sail faster with the staysail, the hull also behaves significantly better, even against a chopped sea .
> I don't quite understand why. Paulo?


You can see that there was several First 40 on this race and the fastest made 6h 32m while the Pogo 12.50 made 6h 06m even if boat times are not absolutely comparable since the Pogo leaved half an hour early and we don't know if the conditions were similar and who benefit for a more favorable timing.

On the several Sydney Hobart a well sailed Pogo 40 class racer (the crew does a lot of races) never managed to to beat the faster First 40 and that Pogo was a racing one, with water ballasts, more sail and much faster than a cruising Pogo 12.50.

Why could the Pogo 12.50 be so fast here? Because this was not a mainly upwind racing like the Hobbart, because the wind was strong and allowed the Pogo to plan downwind (it needs a lot less wind than the First 40 to do that) but also because it was able to not lose too much time, if any, upwind regarding the First.

Why? Because as you can see on the movies there was wind but the water was almost flat. With no waves or small waves the Pogo, as you say, can go very fast upwind, on a more open course compensating the difference in pointing ability with a superior speed. But join to that 2 meters waves, or even less and we will see the First 40 going away upwind, while in really bad weather the difference will be big.

That has to do with wave drag. The Pogo is very beamy but has a very small wet surface...except with waves. When a wave passes the boat, it kind of involve the hull, all the hull and then all that beam counts for drag. On those conditions a narrow boat will do much better because the wave drag would be incomparably smaller almost as smaller as the difference in beam.

Chop is not the problem unless the waves are big. The boat has the power and small chop does not increase wave drag very differently in a First 40 or in a Pogo 12.50. If the waves are bigger, for instance those horrible 1.5m short period Mediterranean waves, the case will be different. Anyway in most circumstances a Pogo 12.50 will be a lot faster than a First 40 even if the rating is exaggerated for the boat performance and that's why nobody would race a Pogo to win on compensated, even with a class 40.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> ...
> 
> Getting back to the previous discussion about the JPK 1080 and Sunfast 3600, I think what most alarms me about what is going on in new boat development is how much prices have gone up. Both of those boats are going to be well over 150.000 € / $200,000, when you finally set off from the dock. I think my estimate for the Malango 999 was 145.000 € / $190,000 with sails, electronics, etc. (without VAT). Perhaps that's a bit high (or maybe not) but it certainly puts me off buying a new boat (a foolish idea regardless).


Yes maybe, but a JPK 10.10 basic price is 118 000 euros and that includes about 20% VAT. Of course this is a basic boat so with good sails and all it will cost more but even so it is a lot of speed and winning potential for the money.

Anyway, compared with the prices for the Sunfast 3600 or the JPK 1080, a new J111 costs way more: 215 000 euros (with VAT without sails) and even the J109 was considerably more expensive.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Figaro II*

And since we do not have movies of this year Solitaire du Figaro, let's have some from the last 2013 races and some other:
















and with these ones I say "au revoir". I am going out sailing and I will post very rarely. Keep up the good work and have fun


----------



## volfan615

MrPelicano said:


> T
> 
> In the meantime, the more I read the Interesting Boats forum, the harder it is becoming to choose the right boat for performance cruising. Once again, I blame the Europeans for designing and building one amazing boat after another, each one intriguing and enticing. I love J/Boats as much as the next person, but there is nothing like this going on in the United States today. Indeed, without J/Boats I would say the U.S. boat building business would basically be dead.


It's interesting to read this as I have been saying this also. All of the interesting racer/cruisers, performance cruisers are all from Europe. with little or no representation in the US.


----------



## alex_burgis

*Re: Things I don't like...*



PCP said:


> Do you guys saw what happened to OSTAR, once a great big race and the first solo Transat?
> 
> wiki link (removed link due to forum limits)
> 
> Now it is this:
> 
> ostar website (removed link due to forum limits)
> 
> Old men, old racing boats with the exception of an Open 50 (that has not impressed on major races) and a class 40 (with a 73 old skipper). The others are mostly just old boats, including a Formosa 42.
> 
> I have nothing against sailors amusing themselves racing, I love solo racing and any form of competition, even if it is with oneself, but can this be called an OSTAR race?
> 
> I mean, this is the race that once was won by some of the greatest skippers of their time on the fastest solo boats??!!!: Éric Tabarly, Geoffrey Williams, Alain Colas, Philip Weld, Yvon Fauconnier, Jean Yves Terlain, Loïck Peyron, Francis Joyon, Ellen MacArthur, Michel Desjoyeaux and Mike Golding all have won it on the most modern and fast racers of their time.....and now it is raced with 25 year old multihulls, Formosas, Saltram, Contessas and third rate skippers?
> 
> Please respect what was once a great race and the best of the best that won it and call this race anything else but OSTAR
> 
> ....


_written as PM to OP - not enough posts to pm so here it is _

Hi, my name is Alex and I'm a student at the University of Plymouth in the UK, studying Navigation and Maritime Science. I'm a mature student (30 years old) and I've come from an IT/web development background to follow a career in yachting.
I was lucky enough to marry these two passions together when the opportunity came up to get involved with the prestigious and historic OSTAR which is run by the Royal Western Yacht Club of England.
I got a pingback from your links on these boards through our website and I was sorry to read that you feel the 2013 event is underwhelming when compared to previous events.

I wanted to comment on a couple of your points and hopefully share some ideas that will change your mind on this exciting, albeit under subscribed 2013 event.
Firstly, your point about the Transat race and the history of professional racers taking part.
The wiki page is misleading, the Transat 2004 and 2008 events were actually in no way related to the historic RWYC OSTAR events.
To my knowledge, Michel Desjoyeaux has not sailed an RWYC OSTAR campaign. Other than that, your list of previous competitors is correct, and what a list (heroes)!!
Since the OSTAR's inception in 1956 and first race in 1960, a huge range of boats have taken part, from cruisers to performance racers. Every race has seen a real mix of competitors, all doing this amateur race for their own personal reasons and in "Corinthian spirit".
In 2000, the OSTAR, then known as Europe 1 New Man STAR, saw many professional racers who were following the tradition of using the event as a feeder and training ground for bigger professional solo events such as Vendee. The RWYC is a non-profit organisation run by volunteers and many of the race committee have been in that position since the first race! The demands of professional race teams and their shore crews quickly outgrew the facilities and capabilities of the club. There was additional strain with the insurance requirements for such a fleet that RWYC was not capable of covering. As such, after the 2000 race the organisers added the following to the standard NoR, "Boats over 50 feet will only be accepted on a case by case basis due to an agreement with OC Events. IMOCA 60 and ORMA 60 class boats shall not be accepted."
The Transat was born! A professional event was organised and raced, completely separate from the OSTAR. This was done again in 2008 with title sponsor Artemis. After that, the race organisation for the Transat completely collapsed and the event has not been repeated.
The OSTAR NoR amendment remains. The event was intentionally returned to a small yacht club event targeted at non-professional sailors.
The 2009 OSTAR saw the end of several key organiser's time with the event. Because of this, the 2013 project was late off the ground and suffered a lack of PR and marketing in the early days. This year's event also coincides with several large solo events such as Class 40 Worlds. This has led to the event being a bit disappointing in terms of numbers but check this out;
The Formosa 42 you mentioned is skippered by a veteran of the race, Mervyn Wheatley. This is his 4th OSTAR and he has won his class in previous years!
Nico Budel (74) has also won his class on the Class 40 in 2005 OSTAR.
The old trimaran came 2nd in the 2005 event, Roger Langevin has a long sailing CV with much success and he is mostly doing this for fun.
One of the leisurely-paced tracks to follow is Peter Crowther on his Swan 38 _Suomi Kudu_, this is his ninth OSTAR! In '72 he did it in a gaff and it took him 89 days!
The story, passion and history that you say is missing from this 2013 event is actually the only thing left. The race was designed as a bet between friends whilst on a train. Francis Chichester and Blondie Hasler conceived of the race and ran it for nothing more than personal achievement and the half crown (old money) bet. Most of this year's competitors are just here for a tick on bucket list.

Check out Jac Sandberg's Corby 30 'Spirit'. I think it's an incredible little boat, 3rd highest handicap after the Open 50 and Class 40.

While the future of the race remains uncertain, I am still dedicated to doing my part in making it great, even if it's without the celebrity sailors and their F1 race yachts.

Anyway, if your eyes made it this far down, congratulations.
I hope you found this a little bit informative and hopefully it helped change your mind about the event. Leave the pros to the pro events and enjoy these amateurs demonstrating true courage and daring by doing what most of us only dream of!

With warm regards,
Alex Burgis - OSTAR 2013 Committee

_*The views expressed in this message may not reflect those of the author or any other person real or imagined. Sarcasm and internet anonymity often result in messages on the interwebs with no actual basis in reality.*_


----------



## desert rat

? Was that Chichester's warm up to the Golden Globe?


----------



## PCP

*Ostar*



alex_burgis said:


> _written as PM to OP - not enough posts to pm so here it is _
> 
> Hi, my name is Alex and I'm a student at the University of Plymouth in the UK, studying Navigation and Maritime Science. I'm a mature student (30 years old) and I've come from an IT/web development background to follow a career in yachting.
> I was lucky enough to marry these two passions together when the opportunity came up to get involved with the prestigious and historic OSTAR which is run by the Royal Western Yacht Club of England.
> I got a pingback from your links on these boards through our website and I was sorry to read that you feel the 2013 event is underwhelming when compared to previous events.
> 
> I wanted to comment on a couple of your points and hopefully share some ideas that will change your mind on this exciting, albeit under subscribed 2013 event.
> Firstly, your point about the Transat race and the history of professional racers taking part.
> The wiki page is misleading, the Transat 2004 and 2008 events were actually in no way related to the historic RWYC OSTAR events.
> To my knowledge, Michel Desjoyeaux has not sailed an RWYC OSTAR campaign. Other than that, your list of previous competitors is correct, and what a list (heroes)!!
> Since the OSTAR's inception in 1956 and first race in 1960, a huge range of boats have taken part, from cruisers to performance racers. Every race has seen a real mix of competitors, all doing this amateur race for their own personal reasons and in "Corinthian spirit".
> In 2000, the OSTAR, then known as Europe 1 New Man STAR, saw many professional racers who were following the tradition of using the event as a feeder and training ground for bigger professional solo events such as Vendee. The RWYC is a non-profit organisation run by volunteers and many of the race committee have been in that position since the first race! The demands of professional race teams and their shore crews quickly outgrew the facilities and capabilities of the club. There was additional strain with the insurance requirements for such a fleet that RWYC was not capable of covering. As such, after the 2000 race the organisers added the following to the standard NoR, "Boats over 50 feet will only be accepted on a case by case basis due to an agreement with OC Events. IMOCA 60 and ORMA 60 class boats shall not be accepted."
> The Transat was born! A professional event was organised and raced, completely separate from the OSTAR. This was done again in 2008 with title sponsor Artemis. After that, the race organisation for the Transat completely collapsed and the event has not been repeated.
> The OSTAR NoR amendment remains. The event was intentionally returned to a small yacht club event targeted at non-professional sailors.
> The 2009 OSTAR saw the end of several key organiser's time with the event. Because of this, the 2013 project was late off the ground and suffered a lack of PR and marketing in the early days. This year's event also coincides with several large solo events such as Class 40 Worlds. This has led to the event being a bit disappointing in terms of numbers but check this out;
> The Formosa 42 you mentioned is skippered by a veteran of the race, Mervyn Wheatley. This is his 4th OSTAR and he has won his class in previous years!
> Nico Budel (74) has also won his class on the Class 40 in 2005 OSTAR.
> The old trimaran came 2nd in the 2005 event, Roger Langevin has a long sailing CV with much success and he is mostly doing this for fun.
> One of the leisurely-paced tracks to follow is Peter Crowther on his Swan 38 _Suomi Kudu_, this is his ninth OSTAR! In '72 he did it in a gaff and it took him 89 days!
> The story, passion and history that you say is missing from this 2013 event is actually the only thing left. The race was designed as a bet between friends whilst on a train. Francis Chichester and Blondie Hasler conceived of the race and ran it for nothing more than personal achievement and the half crown (old money) bet. Most of this year's competitors are just here for a tick on bucket list.
> 
> Check out Jac Sandberg's Corby 30 'Spirit'. I think it's an incredible little boat, 3rd highest handicap after the Open 50 and Class 40.
> 
> While the future of the race remains uncertain, I am still dedicated to doing my part in making it great, even if it's without the celebrity sailors and their F1 race yachts.
> 
> Anyway, if your eyes made it this far down, congratulations.
> I hope you found this a little bit informative and hopefully it helped change your mind about the event. Leave the pros to the pro events and enjoy these amateurs demonstrating true courage and daring by doing what most of us only dream of!
> 
> With warm regards,
> Alex Burgis - OSTAR 2013 Committee
> 
> _*The views expressed in this message may not reflect those of the author or any other person real or imagined. Sarcasm and internet anonymity often result in messages on the interwebs with no actual basis in reality.*_


Hi Alex,

Thanks for your nice post and explanations even if I am a little baffled with this:

*The views expressed in this message may not reflect those of the author or any other person real or imagined. Sarcasm and internet anonymity often result in messages on the interwebs with no actual basis in reality.*

If that was not your opinion what's the point? But i think it was

I love racing in all forms including amateur ones and even if I hate the word "Corinthians", that comes to mean what means today in English by a very tortuous way and denying their original meaning. Our disagreement has only to do with maintaining the name OSTAR, that once stand for the top racing Transat to what is today a minor amateur Transat. Names stand for things and the reality that stand once for OSTAR is not the same today.

A race can be an amateur one and be very competitive, like the French Transquadra. Unless a race has an huge number of boats, like ARC, having a lot of classes with very few competitors for each class in boats with very different performances will always give a race with little competition and little interest except for the ones racing.

I hope you take my criticism and differences of opinion with an open mind, wishing you and OSTAR all the luck for the future as a race.

I was not supposing to having time to reply since I am busy taking care of things for my sailing season that starts tomorrow and I will not have time for continue this exchange of opinions, at least now, but I would not be impolite to the point of not replying to your nice letter.

all the best

Paulo

PS I hope this was the link you wanted to post?

OSTAR 2013 | The Original Single Handed Trans-Atlantic Race


----------



## Edward3

*Re: Things I don't like...*



alex_burgis said:


> _written as PM to OP - not enough posts to pm so here it is _
> 
> Hi, my name is Alex and I'm a student at the University of Plymouth in the UK, studying Navigation and Maritime Science. I'm a mature student (30 years old) and I've come from an IT/web development background to follow a career in yachting.
> I was lucky enough to marry these two passions together when the opportunity came up to get involved with the prestigious and historic OSTAR which is run by the Royal Western Yacht Club of England.
> I got a pingback from your links on these boards through our website and I was sorry to read that you feel the 2013 event is underwhelming when compared to previous events.
> 
> I wanted to comment on a couple of your points and hopefully share some ideas that will change your mind on this exciting, albeit under subscribed 2013 event.
> Firstly, your point about the Transat race and the history of professional racers taking part.
> The wiki page is misleading, the Transat 2004 and 2008 events were actually in no way related to the historic RWYC OSTAR events.
> To my knowledge, Michel Desjoyeaux has not sailed an RWYC OSTAR campaign. Other than that, your list of previous competitors is correct, and what a list (heroes)!!
> Since the OSTAR's inception in 1956 and first race in 1960, a huge range of boats have taken part, from cruisers to performance racers. Every race has seen a real mix of competitors, all doing this amateur race for their own personal reasons and in "Corinthian spirit".
> In 2000, the OSTAR, then known as Europe 1 New Man STAR, saw many professional racers who were following the tradition of using the event as a feeder and training ground for bigger professional solo events such as Vendee. The RWYC is a non-profit organisation run by volunteers and many of the race committee have been in that position since the first race! The demands of professional race teams and their shore crews quickly outgrew the facilities and capabilities of the club. There was additional strain with the insurance requirements for such a fleet that RWYC was not capable of covering. As such, after the 2000 race the organisers added the following to the standard NoR, "Boats over 50 feet will only be accepted on a case by case basis due to an agreement with OC Events. IMOCA 60 and ORMA 60 class boats shall not be accepted."
> The Transat was born! A professional event was organised and raced, completely separate from the OSTAR. This was done again in 2008 with title sponsor Artemis. After that, the race organisation for the Transat completely collapsed and the event has not been repeated.
> The OSTAR NoR amendment remains. The event was intentionally returned to a small yacht club event targeted at non-professional sailors.
> The 2009 OSTAR saw the end of several key organiser's time with the event. Because of this, the 2013 project was late off the ground and suffered a lack of PR and marketing in the early days. This year's event also coincides with several large solo events such as Class 40 Worlds. This has led to the event being a bit disappointing in terms of numbers but check this out;
> The Formosa 42 you mentioned is skippered by a veteran of the race, Mervyn Wheatley. This is his 4th OSTAR and he has won his class in previous years!
> Nico Budel (74) has also won his class on the Class 40 in 2005 OSTAR.
> The old trimaran came 2nd in the 2005 event, Roger Langevin has a long sailing CV with much success and he is mostly doing this for fun.
> One of the leisurely-paced tracks to follow is Peter Crowther on his Swan 38 _Suomi Kudu_, this is his ninth OSTAR! In '72 he did it in a gaff and it took him 89 days!
> The story, passion and history that you say is missing from this 2013 event is actually the only thing left. The race was designed as a bet between friends whilst on a train. Francis Chichester and Blondie Hasler conceived of the race and ran it for nothing more than personal achievement and the half crown (old money) bet. Most of this year's competitors are just here for a tick on bucket list.
> 
> Check out Jac Sandberg's Corby 30 'Spirit'. I think it's an incredible little boat, 3rd highest handicap after the Open 50 and Class 40.
> 
> While the future of the race remains uncertain, I am still dedicated to doing my part in making it great, even if it's without the celebrity sailors and their F1 race yachts.
> 
> Anyway, if your eyes made it this far down, congratulations.
> I hope you found this a little bit informative and hopefully it helped change your mind about the event. Leave the pros to the pro events and enjoy these amateurs demonstrating true courage and daring by doing what most of us only dream of!
> 
> With warm regards,
> Alex Burgis - OSTAR 2013 Committee
> 
> _*The views expressed in this message may not reflect those of the author or any other person real or imagined. Sarcasm and internet anonymity often result in messages on the interwebs with no actual basis in reality.*_


Alex +1
Very well said


----------



## mitiempo

desert rat said:


> ? Was that Chichester's warm up to the Golden Globe?


Chichester did not race in the Golden Globe.


----------



## EricKLYC

Paulo already announced the Pogo 30, successor of the succesful 8.50. Much awaited, probably too long for many of the 30  future owners who already ordered one on plans even before the very first one was launched. Quite exceptional in the actual boat market where even strong brands such as Southerly are in difficulty .

But now the very first Pogo 30 is finally on the water and the video teaser of the test by Voiles&Voiliers is online. Apart from performance, these images also show the nice oceanic swell we like so much. And what seems like a very bad squall too&#8230;
(sorry, I cant' find an embedded code):

Pogo 30 : digne successeur du 8,50 (teaser)

This first video confirms the impression I had the last time we were at the Structures boatyard: the 30 is very much like a 12.50 but smaller, clearly designed by the same NA bureau Finot-Conq. But I suppose the different scale also implies other solutions here and there. And I also expect them to have learned from the 12.50 to further improve this kind of design. So I much await the publication of the test itself, the extensive video and Paulo's opinion at his return (meantime enjoy the cruise, Paulo  !).

Except fast cruising, the Pogo 30 is said to be intended also for racing e.g. the Transquadra. Therefore a more performant fixed T-bulb keel is foreseen instead of the swinging keel. With the Sun Fasts and JPK's around this should give a nice competition.

On the pure "open 40" racing scene things seem to be moving fast, also for Structures. The Pogo 40 S2 (the hull upon which the 12.50 cruiser is based), although only a few years old and certainly not unsuccessful, will already be followed by the newly designed 40 S3 next year (again Finot-Conq).

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...73741830.263630182346&type=1&relevant_count=1

Then the Pogo 2 got a longer lifespan, a much older design but still difficult to beat in the Mini 6.50 series category. But now they are also working on a model of the future Pogo 3 (this time not Finot-Conq but Verdier as NA).

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...2963262346.143973.263630182346&type=1&theater

Busy guys, there in Britanny!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## robelz

The S3 is a Verdier design, too...


----------



## EricKLYC

robelz said:


> The S3 is a Verdier design, too...


Are you sure?

_Sur l'eau, à quoi ressemblera ce Pogo S3 ? Eh bien au Pogo S2 car le pont et le rouf resteront identiques à ceux de la génération précédente. La carène en revanche n'est plus la même, comme nous l'explique *son architecte, Pascal Conq *: « Il s'agit de faire un bateau toujours plus puissant mais pratiquement sans augmenter la surface mouillée ». Les modifications ont surtout porté sur l'augmentation du volume des formes avant. Résultat, un bateau plus puissant, qui déjauge plus facilement._
Mon Voile Mag , Archive » Un nouveau Class 40 : le Pogo 40 S3

_Vorige Woche wurde in der Werft in Combrit, nahe dem idyllischen Hafenstädtchen Sainte Marine, der hölzerne Positivkern für die spätere Form der Pogo 40 S3 gehobelt und verschliffen. *Der Entwuf stammt von Finot-Conq*, den langjährigen Haus-Konstrukteuren. _
POGO 40 S3: Neue Pogo Class 40 im Bau - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## MrPelicano

A Pogo 3 6.50 from Verdier would be a powerful weapon indeed, and might spell the end of alternatives in the series class. The Pogo 2 is already so dominant, the Pogo 3 might be the coup de grâce, except perhaps only on the basis of cost. Not sure that would be a bad thing - sort of a natural evolution towards a one design (monotype) class for the 6.50, with innovation trickling in from the protos.


----------



## robelz

EricKLYC said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> _Sur l'eau, à quoi ressemblera ce Pogo S3 ? Eh bien au Pogo S2 car le pont et le rouf resteront identiques à ceux de la génération précédente. La carène en revanche n'est plus la même, comme nous l'explique *son architecte, Pascal Conq *: « Il s'agit de faire un bateau toujours plus puissant mais pratiquement sans augmenter la surface mouillée ». Les modifications ont surtout porté sur l'augmentation du volume des formes avant. Résultat, un bateau plus puissant, qui déjauge plus facilement._
> Mon Voile Mag , Archive » Un nouveau Class 40 : le Pogo 40 S3
> 
> _Vorige Woche wurde in der Werft in Combrit, nahe dem idyllischen Hafenstädtchen Sainte Marine, der hölzerne Positivkern für die spätere Form der Pogo 40 S3 gehobelt und verschliffen. *Der Entwuf stammt von Finot-Conq*, den langjährigen Haus-Konstrukteuren. _
> POGO 40 S3: Neue Pogo Class 40 im Bau - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


And in the same article in the Yacht magazine it is said it was made by Verdier. Look under the first picture...


----------



## MrPelicano

Looking closely at the Pogo 30 base specifications, I notice that the boat as shown in the teaser video on Voiles et Voiliers is sporting quite a bit of optimization. For one, it has a carbon rig, which allows for no backstay and, therefore, the use of the big flat-head main. Standard configuration is with an aluminium rig, fixed backstay and more traditional main. This will mean a big difference in performance, I suspect.

Second, and obvious from the photos of the launch, is the swing keel vs. the standard fixed keel. The swing keel is a €6530 option (for the carbon rig, you have to request a quote, but likely in the neighborhood €10-12K, perhaps more).

I will wager that by the time you kit out the boat with sails and electronics, you're looking at around €140-€160K / $185-$210K. My initial reaction is to be somewhat shocked, but this is comparable to a Beneteau First 30 fully kitted with a carbon rig, so perhaps this is where the performance end of the 30-foot range can be found these days. Of course, there are less expensive alternatives, but you will give up some performance I suppose. 

Regardless, the Pogo 30 is an impressive looking boat and will go on my short-list, though not as a brand new purchase.


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 40 S3*



robelz said:


> And in the same article in the Yacht magazine it is said it was made by Verdier. Look under the first picture...


if I remember correctly they had said all the way it was a Verdier project and after that they modified the article and forgot to modify on the picture.

So it seems that they were wrong and lead me to post wrong information. In fact I am happy to know that Pogo and Finot/Conq maintain an old and fruitful collaboration that lead to a fantastic boats and a great number of victories.

Pascal Conq is quoted in voile magazine blog saying it was designed by him and talks about the differences to the previous model so unless something funny is going on, it is a Finot/Conq design.

Funny that nothing is said about it on the Finot/Conq site, on the facebook Structures page a question about who was the designer was not answered and the say nothing about it, nor in the Pogo main site.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Solitaire du Figaro*

And it seems that only me and MrPelicano (why the hell you are a Pelicano with a dog look?) were following it. Well I still am, even with little time. They finished the first Leg in Porto and leaved already for Gijon.

The good old Yann Elies beat them all and stars like Armel le Cleach (second last vendee), Michel Desjoieaux (two times Vendee winner) or Gildas Morvan (several times France Solo champion) were only 21th 18th, 6th.

On the second leg it seems Morvan is showing why he had won so many races solo on Figaro and is leading. Nicol, 3th on the first leg is 3th now and that, if he can maintain it, will pull him on the overall classification. They give a very bad classification to Desjoieaux (25th) but I don't understand why. If the wind preview indication is right he should be among the first, even leading. We will see.

Le Figaro - La Solitaire

Finally some images from the first leg that was raced with weak winds, except on the Finisterra cape where I never found a no wind situation
















Leaving for the second leg:





La Solitaire du Figaro Eric Bompard cachemire... _por lasolitairedufigaro_


----------



## robelz

*Re: Pogo 40 S3*



PCP said:


> if I remember correctly they had said all the way it was a Verdier project and after that they modified the article and forgot to modify on the picture.
> 
> So it seems that they were wrong and lead me to post wrong information. In fact I am happy to know that Pogo and Finot/Conq maintain an old and fruitful collaboration that lead to a fantastic boats and a great number of victories.
> 
> Pascal Conq is quoted in voile magazine blog saying it was designed by him and talks about the differences to the previous model so unless something funny is going on, it is a Finot/Conq design.
> 
> Funny that nothing is said about it on the Finot/Conq site, on the facebook Structures page a question about who was the designer was not answered and the say nothing about it, nor in the Pogo main site.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


OK, so I am obviously wrong. Still waiting for a cruiser/racer by Verdier...


----------



## PCP

*La Route des Princes 2013*

And another very interesting one: Top boats, top professional sailors, the best in what regards multihull racing:





Clip Routes des Princes Valence Inshore - Jour 2 _por routedesprincesTV_

Route des Princes 2013

Home - La Route des Princes 2013

and a fantastic new, at least for me and him: Jean-Pierre Dick, that had come from the Open 60's after the last Vendee (where he was 4th, finishing without a keel) won his first victory in Multihulls in his new Mod 70:

http://www.routedesprinces.fr/en/rankings-inshores.htm

That is what I call learning fast. I guess he had already some training making thousands of miles with his Open 60 without a keel


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pogo 40 S3*



robelz said:


> OK, so I am obviously wrong. Still waiting for a cruiser/racer by Verdier...


Hummm, I would not be so sure, I have said :

*"Originally Posted by PCP 
.... so unless something funny is going on, it is a Finot/Conq design.

Funny that nothing is said about it on the Finot/Conq site, on the facebook Structures page a question about who was the designer was not answered and the say nothing about it, nor in the Pogo main site. "*

and it seems something funny is going one because on this interview made 3 month ago a main Pogo shipyard man says that they are studding the new Pogo 40 S3 with Verdier






So all this is a bit confusing. Let's wait till the Shipyard says who is the boat designer. In fact Voile magazine attributes those comments (that I had read also on Yacht.de) to Conq assuming he is the designer but it seems they were made by the shipyard.

Maybe they are a bit between the sword and the wall (well, I don't know if that means anything in English, it is an old Portuguese saying but the meaning is obvious) maybe the design was an original Conq one and was modified by Verdier.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

Hey Paulo! Aren't you supposed to be cruising? 

I will see if I can dig up a better avatar than that odd photo of my much beloved dog, Mr. Otto (M/Pitbull/14.5 years old). 

The first leg of the Figaro came down to mostly being in the right place at the right time... or, in the case of Michel D. and Armel L., not being in the wrong place at the right time. In those conditions, we are the playthings of the gods (as I believe the saying goes), though this is to take nothing away from Yann Elies' victory.

Tracking leg two as we speak. Morvan has been staying on the inside most of the time, with a brief move to the west for some reason, but then soaking back to the east, as he approached Cape Finisterre. Really looked to me like he picked the layline perfectly, with Tannyères and Livory too far inside. Just past Finisterre Morvan remained the easternmost boat, with Nicol quite close but further west.

At the point near O Porto de Corme the entire fleet seems to suddenly realize that Morvan's inside line is the winning move and they all turn east and consolidate. But by this time Morvan is gone (if you can call a lead of less than 2nm "gone" ). The tracking map can be deceiving if you don't keep an eye on the distances, because it looks like big gaps opening up but actually not very much. If Morvan runs into light air at some point, the entire fleet will compress, and then we're back to nail biting again. 

I swear that there are not many races of this calibre where the competition is so close. The Tour de France a la Voile, of course, but not too many others. The "big guns" remain within striking distance - Desjoyeux, Hardy, Beyou, Le Cléac'h, and, of course, Eliés.


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> Hey Paulo! Aren't you supposed to be cruising?
> 
> ..


Yes, I had to postpone my flight a week due to unavoidable family problems.

I have a huge respect for Morvan and I never understood why he did never moved to the Open 60's. He is a great sailor. I remember a Transat where he was pursued at a short range and on the same course by Sam Davies ans Armel le Cleach for more than a week....and he maintained always about the same distance till win the race. Solid steel

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Pogo 40 S3*



PCP said:


> ... and it seems something funny is going one because on this interview made 3 month ago a main Pogo shipyard man says that they are studding the new Pogo 40 S3 with Verdier
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


My French isn't the best, but I thought I heard the gentleman from Structures say that Verdier is designing the Pogo 3 not the Pogo 40 S3, during the interview video you posted. He discussed the 40 S3 but I didn't hear him mention the designer for that one. And that would be consistent with what we've read and heard elsewhere.

After VPLP's success in the last Vendée I wouldn't be surprised if Verdier is the hot new designer du jour. Hard to argue with success. However, it will be interesting to me to see if Verdier incorporates any of the lessons learned from David Raison's scow 6.50 into his own design. Some of my friends who are more knowledgeable about the Mini Transat tell me that Raison's design would not be quite as competitive on the new route for 2013 as on the previous route of the last several years, to Bahia de Salvador. But 747 did very well on the Mini Fastnet, so who knows. It seems to me that in any condition featuring power reaching in breeze under spinnaker, the scow would be the weapon of choice. Watching the recent training video of the more conventional designs, in precisely those conditions, I noted the tendency to bury the bow quite a bit. This would not be as much of an issue with the scow design.

I guess we will wait and see. One thing we know is that Structures is not afraid to push the envelope, even in a market where they dominate (Pogo 2). Unless, of course, the Pogo 3 is slower than the Pogo 2.  But I bet that won't happen.


----------



## MrPelicano

PCP said:


> Yes, I had to postpone my flight a week due to unavoidable family problems.
> 
> I have a huge respect for Morvan and I never understood why he did never moved to the Open 60's. He is a great sailor. I remember a Transat where he was pursued at a short range and on the same course by Sam Davies ans Armel le Cleach for more than a week....and he maintained always about the same distance till win the race. Solid steel
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Very sorry to hear of the delay. I hope you are able to resolve the problems quickly and resume your cruising plans. Also hope that your family is all healthy and happy.

As for Morvan, given his longevity as a professional sailor, he must certainly know how to cultivate the necessry sponsor relationships necessary to move into IMOCA. Obviously, it is always about the money, but even more so with the 60's. Perhaps a different question is why not move into Classe 40? That would be the natural progression, to my mind.

To be honest, I admire all of these guys (and girls) who are pursuing their dreams racing sailboats. It is the one regret of my own life that I didn't make a similar choice when I was younger and had the opportunity. However, I can't complain too much because I have done an incredible amount of sailing / racing so far, and plan to do even more going forward.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pogo 40 S3*



MrPelicano said:


> My French isn't the best, but I thought I heard the gentleman from Structures say that Verdier is designing the Pogo 3 not the Pogo 40 S3, during the interview video you posted. He discussed the 40 S3 but I didn't hear him mention the designer for that one. And that would be consistent with what we've read and heard elsewhere.
> 
> After VPLP's success in the last Vendée I wouldn't be surprised if Verdier is the hot new designer du jour. Hard to argue with success. However, it will be interesting to me to see if Verdier incorporates any of the lessons learned from David Raison's scow 6.50 into his own design. Some of my friends who are more knowledgeable about the Mini Transat tell me that Raison's design would not be quite as competitive on the new route for 2013 as on the previous route of the last several years, to Bahia de Salvador. But 747 did very well on the Mini Fastnet, so who knows. It seems to me that in any condition featuring power reaching in breeze under spinnaker, the scow would be the weapon of choice. Watching the recent training video of the more conventional designs, in precisely those conditions, I noted the tendency to bury the bow quite a bit. This would not be as much of an issue with the scow design.
> 
> I guess we will wait and see. One thing we know is that Structures is not afraid to push the envelope, even in a market where they dominate (Pogo 2). Unless, of course, the Pogo 3 is slower than the Pogo 2.  But I bet that won't happen.


Your French should not be that bad because you are right. he is talking about the Mini racer that is going to be designed by Verdier. After that he says that they are making a S3 version of the class 40 for the Transquadra....but they fail to mention the designer

Anyway the Pogo 2, the mini class racer was also a Finot/Conq design...and that has changed for Verdier. Will the same happens with the new Class 40? Anyway it is strange their persistence in not naming the designer.

Bon, and with 3 months delay some "news" about the Pogo 30. Almost 4 months ago, only over the drawings they had sold already 30 Pogo 30, 5 for racing the next Transquadra and 25 for fast cruising.

The ones for the Transquadra will have a fixed aluminum mast while all the others will have the removable carbon mast. I can only imagine a reason for the one used mostly for racing to have a aluminium mast: The IRC number with a Carbon mast will be over 1.051, the Max allowed.

So, we will only have to wait a year to know if the little one will be faster on a Transat than a JPK 10.10 or a A35. Off course, on the next one we will have also the new Jeanneau 3600 and the JPK 1080....it is going to be a very hot one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transquadra*

and talking about the Transquadra, a favorite solo/duo race of mine, one for Amateurs and not for racing boats.

Lets have a look at the rules to see if I can convert some more to this race that has mechanisms to assure the competitiveness, to rule out slow boats or racing boats, professional sailors, young guns looking to become professionals and to assure a big overall competitiveness. Quite the contrary of what happens on the OSTAR.

This seems simple but it took many years to perfect the rules to make it the great race that is today.

*Regarding boats:**

For boats built after June 1996, CE Class A certification is needed.

For boats built before June 1996, a STIX and AVS stability certificate corresponding to Class A will be required.

Must have a hull length of between 8.5 and 12.5 metres

Must be fitted with a fixed motor, able to propel the boat through calm water at a minimum of 5 knots.

Must comply with the provisions of the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations, category 1

Each boat must be equipped with: 
a satellite locator and tracker, supplied by the organisers. 
a storm sail as defined ... OSR Rules, category 1. 
a satellite telephone, the number of which is to be communicated to the Satellite telephones must be kept on standby throughout the duration of the races.

Each skipper must present, before 31 May 2014, the valid IRC certificate for his boat. ...TCC permitted: 0.949 < TCC < 1.051

Change of sails: no change of sails, for any reason whatsoever, will be accepted between the two races. ..Number of spis authorised: fitting a 4th spi, without a rating increase, is not allowed.

Maximum number of boats allowed:
The maximum number of registered boats is limited to 100, solo and double combined, counting the participants in the TRANSQUADRA-ATLANTIQUE and TRANSQUADRA MEDITERRANEE together. *

Simple and effective

*The skippers/crew*:

*Entry in LA TRANSQUADRA ATLANTIQUE and LA TRANSQUADRA MEDITERRANEE 2014-2015 is by personal invitation.

Competitors interested in taking part should send an INVITATION REQUEST, accompanied by a document giving details of their offshore sailing experience, in racing or cruising, and their sailing experience in general.

Applicants who have not already taken part in a Transquadra race or similar sailing event must have competed in an offshore race accredited by FFVoile of AT LEAST 250 nautical miles.

All competitors must be forty years old by 31 December 2014 at the latest.

Admissibility will be decided in accordance with ISAF Rule 76

Non-professionalism:

The competitors (skipper and crew) must sail for leisure purposes only. The competitors declare that they are not professional sailors and are not being paid to race in the Transquadra 2014-2015.

Over a period of 24 months before the first Transquadra 2014-2015 race, the competitors declare that they have not been paid to: 
• Take part in a regatta. 
• Prepare their boat. 
• Allow their image or their name to be used in relation to their sailing performances, their racing results or their reputation as sailors.

Definitions:
To be paid: income received by a regatta entrant, whether employed or self-employed, bonuses, donations, any direct or indirect financial benefit, other than personal expenses. 
Personal expenses: income received by a regatta entrant, allocated to the payment of charges for entry fees, travel, accommodation and meals, related to, and necessary for, participation in a specific event. Contributions from sponsors to the equipment of the boat are considered as personal expenses. ...

ROUTING
In accordance with Rule 41 of the RRS "Outside Help", help with sailing, from an external source, and of a personalised nature, is prohibited. 
N.B.: the consultation or receipt of wind charts, or of any other weather charts available on the internet, where such charts are universally available, does not constitute outside help of a personalised nature.

*

and that's it. Being only accepted inscriptions by invitation has to do with not allow crazy guys to take part but only experienced sailors but not to the point of racing professionals (and in France there are a huge number).

If someone has to criticize something it will be the 40 year limit to enter the race. I understand the intention of ruling out young guns not yet professionals but on a route to be but then some of the best solo racers have more than 40 year's old and being over 40 does not rule out ex professionals that are more or less "retired" now and that are slightly over 40.

If you want to have a better look, here is the notice of race for the next event:

http://www.transquadra.com/documentations/TRANSQUADRA 2014 2015. NOTICE OF RACE..pdf


----------



## PCP

*Grand Surprise*

a boat we never talked here about and one that is a favorite among French racing sailors. The Archambault story is linked to that name, first the Surprise, than the Grand Surprise...a boat with some years that still goes fast. As all the other A, a Michel Joubert & Bernard Nivelt design, a very nice boat.

http://www.archambault-boats.eu/images/stories/telechargement/GRANDSURPRISEBROCHURE1.jpg


----------



## EricKLYC

Also sorry to hear about your delay, Paulo. And hope you will soon be able to set sail, knowing everybody and everything is perfectly OK.

I also follow the Solitaire du Figaro quite closely. That even living solo sailing legends such as “le professeur” Michel Desjoyeaux have been set back that far in the first leg very well illustrates that this is a extremely complicated and very tactical race. So I very much enjoy all the expert analyses!

Finot-Conq has been the dedicated Structures NA bureau since the Pogo 2 but now Guillaume Verdier has been assigned to conceive the Pogo 3. Has this altered the relationship between the Finot group and Structures, explaining why the NA signing for the S3 is so badly advertised? I don’t know but it was certainly a very honest mistake to think it was also Guillaume Verdier, Robelz.

I also wonder if the Pogo 3 will be another major step forward in the 6.50 class, Mr. Pelicano. Because if it is, after the strong dominance of the Pogo 2 I agree this could lead to a “de facto” monotype class, still apart from the prototypes of course. And given the clear successes of David Raisons’ scow-like “747 – Magnum” prototype, will Structures dare to introduce such a concept in the 6.50 series? Honestly, I have no clue. Except that I think they like their boats to be elegant, at least in profile . But they will probably try to keep this a mystery as long as possible.

I agree the Pogo 30 is not cheap, certainly not including all the options. Trust me, no Pogo is . But knowing and having seen how these boats are built and equipped, I’m still convinced they’re good value for money. I’d better since I sail one myself , but even the actual second hand market seems to confirm this impression (no, ours is not for sale yet ).

But this time Structures completely changed its pricing policy. Until now, their cruisers were always advertised with a canting keel and carbon mast (10.50, 12.50, 50’). Although both the 10.50 and 12.50 have also been built with a fixed keel and the 10.50 has also been offered with an aluminium mast, carbon being less essential because the 10.50 has no fathead mainsail and thus always carries a backstay (except the “one off” 10.50 Jean-Marie Finot ordered for himself, which even features a wing mast). But the others were all “optional” (but of course cheaper) designs.

Although the 30’ is first meant for the cruising market, now they clearly also want to attract racing candidates, especially for the Transquadra. I think that’s why they now advertise the fixed keel version in the first place, because of the better performance. And the aluminium mast without fat headed main, because as Paulo stated very accurately the rating would otherwise exceed the limitations for this race. Meanwhile 5 have been ordered in the "standard" Transquadra configuration and 25 with the swinging keel, carbon mast and fathead main options. 

For cruising purposes I think these 25 future owners are perfectly right. It would be a pity to deprive yourself of the better performance in light wind conditions (much bigger main) and extra stability when it gets rough (much lighter mast). So for someone who doesn’t have to bother about rating, I personally think the Pogo 30’ deserves his place next to e.g. the First 30’.

Finally, a personal feeling about the Transquadra orientation of the 30’: Christian Bouroullec, the founder and actual director of Structures, winner of the 1999 Mini Transat (now Transat 6.50) on the first Pogo, seems to like racing again with his most recent babies. He crewed for the last ARC on the first Pogo 50’ (4th in real time) and especially for the last Quebec-St.-Malo race on a Pogo 40 S2 (1st). I would not be surprised to see his name on the list for the next Transquadra…

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Professional racers, boat designers and builders.*



EricKLYC said:


> ...
> 
> Finally, a personal feeling about the Transquadra orientation of the 30': Christian Bouroullec, the founder and actual director of Structures, winner of the 1999 Mini Transat (now Transat 6.50) on the first Pogo, seems to like racing again with his most recent babies. He crewed for the last ARC on the first Pogo 50' (4th in real time) and especially for the last Quebec-St.-Malo race on a Pogo 40 S2 (1st). I would not be surprised to see his name on the list for the next Transquadra&#8230;
> ..


Hi Eric,

I knew about that great result on the ARC crewing a client's boat but I did not knew about the Quebec-St Malo, maybe because he was not the skipper:

Halvard MABIRE et Miranda MERRON ? Événement de voile de Québec à St-Malo | Transat Québec St-Malo

Anyway the have made a brillant job beaten the one that is now probably the best 40class racer, Joerg RIECHERS. Curiously on the Joerg boat we will find out as crew another non professional racer, this time a boat designer and as Bouroullec, a former racer: Sam Manuard the designer of the Seascape 27

TipTopToo, minitransat 6.50 et autres voiliers de croisires modernes

That's fantastic the sail passion of these guys that even had changed live still love racing and can do it still at highest level. And they are not the only ones, I would not be surprised to find there JPK too

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sorry about the pictures!*

They say you guys are looking too much to my pictures

They ask me to pay what was free, I mean the photos on photobucket. This as been fun, I had spent a lot of time with it but I will not pay for it.

They say they will restore bandwidth in 15 days...we will see, anyway I will be gone next week...for some months.

In meanwhile i can still post movies so look at the Boat project, a boat made with recycled wood racing on the "Around the Island race":











we talked here already about this interesting project. Son't remember? Lool here it is a very interesting story and project:

The Boat Project


----------



## MrPelicano

My concerns about Morvan running into light conditions in the Figaro turned out to be prophetic, and he became a plaything of the gods as the wind vanished and the entire fleet compressed. In desperation (I imagine) he made a stab out to the northwest, looking for breeze, but then immediately joined the rest of the fleet in dashing back inshore, while the Jackal (Armel Le Cléac'h) took advantage and snuck into the lead. Now it is a battle to the very end as the breeze is up and the dash to the finish is underway. 

Yacht racing: not for the faint of heart.

By contrast, I was able to get out on an Express 37 yesterday afternoon for some casual PHRF racing out of Cedar Point YC, on Long Island Sound. Conditions were perfect, with about 8-14 knots - initially from the south, but clocking east midway through race one - and about 70F (21C). It was a mixed bag in the spinnaker class, with another Express 37, a J/105, an Evelyn 32, a Wyliecat and a couple others. Due to our very impressive upwind and downwind speed - particularly on the second windward leg of each race - we were able to score two wins for the day. Interestingly, we averaged .30 knot VMG higher in both races than the second place boat, a J/105. As a nice change of pace for me I got to do the mast position instead of my customary bow spot. Good bowman aboard so, of course, there was zero drama on the front of the boat.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Grand Surprise*



PCP said:


> a boat we never talked here about and one that is a favorite among French racing sailors. The Archambault story is linked to that name, first the Surprise, than the Grand Surprise...a boat with some years that still goes fast. As all the other A, a Michel Joubert & Bernard Nivelt design, a very nice boat.


At the risk of appearing overly critical and not appreciating it when people take the time to video their sailing adventures, I have to say that the camera reveals much room for improvement aboard _Gernimo_. In no particular order:


Crew doesn't hike hard upwind.
Crew slow moving across the boat and assuming hiking position during and after tacks
Pit person in poor position on spinnaker hoist to support mast person - she is tailing right up against the rope clutch instead of back near the cabin top winch.
Too many people on the foredeck during the spinnaker set and gybe, including one guy just sitting in front of the mast
What? No spinnaker downwind in 23 knots? That seems overly cautious during a race.
Crew out of position prior to the start - someone is down below while they're in sequence and weight positioning is all over the place as they tack onto starboard to make their approach.

I could probably go on but I would recommend some coaching to take it to the next level. 

Couldn't really tell much about the Grand Surprise itself, except that it looks quick in a breeze (and would be even quicker if the crew hikes hard and gets their weight properly positioned and sets the spinnaker).


----------



## MrPelicano

Chapeau! to Armel Le Cléac'h for tenaciously hanging on for the stage 2 win in the Solitaire de Figaro, finishing just 59 seconds ahead of Morgan Lagravière after more than 2 days of racing.

At the same time, Gildas Morvan has my deepest sympathy. After leading much of the way, he eventually ran into the light air that re-shuffled the deck and now looks like he will finish in 27th place. The sailing gods are cruel, that's for sure.

Meanwhile, Yann Eliés is consolidating his hold on the overall with a well fought 5th place in stage two, to go with his stage one victory. Armel moves all the way up to sixth overall, while Frédéric Duthil quietly slides into second overall, a dangerous force to be reckoned with through the remainder of the event.

I think that Paulo had mentioned never seeing light air off Finisterre but on this leg the wind was incredibly fickle, and it must have been very difficult racing under such conditions, always imagining that your competitors are in the breeze somewhere else, leaving you behind. 

Of course, I would trade places with any of them right now.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Grand Surprise*



MrPelicano said:


> At the risk of appearing overly critical and not appreciating it when people take the time to video their sailing adventures, I have to say that the camera reveals much room for improvement aboard _Gernimo_. In no particular order:
> 
> 
> Crew doesn't hike hard upwind.
> Crew slow moving across the boat and assuming hiking position during and after tacks
> Pit person in poor position on spinnaker hoist to support mast person - she is tailing right up against the rope clutch instead of back near the cabin top winch.
> Too many people on the foredeck during the spinnaker set and gybe, including one guy just sitting in front of the mast
> What? No spinnaker downwind in 23 knots? That seems overly cautious during a race.
> Crew out of position prior to the start - someone is down below while they're in sequence and weight positioning is all over the place as they tack onto starboard to make their approach.
> 
> I could probably go on but I would recommend some coaching to take it to the next level.
> 
> Couldn't really tell much about the Grand Surprise itself, except that it looks quick in a breeze (and would be even quicker if the crew hikes hard and gets their weight properly positioned and sets the spinnaker).


Poor guys They are just learning

I found out that there are Grand Surprise even in Australia:






and one that seems better sailed to me even if this is only a University race with kids:


----------



## PCP

*A boat for Mr Pelicano*

I have a boat to recommend to you, a fast one : GERANIUM KILLER is for sale at a good price. That's a 2008 A40RC, this one:
















Tour de Corse à la voile 2009 from Brice on Vimeo.

Look at the price

GERANIUM KILLER Boat for sale

bad luck....It is sold already

GERANIUM KILLER

But the message remains, if you keep an eye on the market some great deals can appear.


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> My concerns about Morvan running into light conditions in the Figaro turned out to be prophetic, and he became a plaything of the gods as the wind vanished and the entire fleet compressed. In desperation (I imagine) he made a stab out to the northwest, looking for breeze, but then immediately joined the rest of the fleet in dashing back inshore, while the Jackal (Armel Le Cléac'h) took advantage and snuck into the lead. Now it is a battle to the very end as the breeze is up and the dash to the finish is underway.
> 
> Yacht racing: not for the faint of heart.
> 
> By contrast, I was able to get out on an Express 37 yesterday afternoon for some casual PHRF racing out of Cedar Point YC, on Long Island Sound. Conditions were perfect, with about 8-14 knots - initially from the south, but clocking east midway through race one - and about 70F (21C). It was a mixed bag in the spinnaker class, with another Express 37, a J/105, an Evelyn 32, a Wyliecat and a couple others. Due to our very impressive upwind and downwind speed - particularly on the second windward leg of each race - we were able to score two wins for the day. Interestingly, we averaged .30 knot VMG higher in both races than the second place boat, a J/105. As a nice change of pace for me I got to do the mast position instead of my customary bow spot. Good bowman aboard so, of course, there was zero drama on the front of the boat.


Congratulations on the race

Regarding the Figaro Morvan leaded till about being at 27nm from the finish in a 300nm race...then he took the wrong option and come from 1st to 27th. That's how good these guys are. No mistakes allowed not even near the finish line.

One for Armel but Yann, the winner of the first leg made a great race too coming in 5th losing only 9 minutes to Armel and is leading overall. Armel is 6th, Desjoieaux is 16th and Morvan is 20th and by the way this guy (Xavier):






is 4th. When this video passed on sailnet there was a lot of guys making fun. I have tried to explain that guy was a pro and a great sailor...well, he is proving here that, 4th among the best It seems those trains with Berenger were useful.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: A boat for Mr Pelicano*



PCP said:


> I have a boat to recommend to you, a fast one : GERANIUM KILLER is for sale at a good price. That's a 2008 A40RC, this one:
> 
> Look at the price
> 
> GERANIUM KILLER Boat for sale
> 
> bad luck....It is sold already
> 
> GERANIUM KILLER
> 
> But the message remains, if you keep an eye on the market some great deals can appear.


Paulo -

I was supposed to do the recent Block Island Race on an A40 - not the RC version - but it didn't come together for some reason. I took a look at it yesterday, as it is docked nearby the Express 37. Cool looking boat, in either configuration, though I confess to preferring twin wheels and mainsheet / traveller ahead of the steering position - Geranium Killer is tiller steering and mainsheet / traveller aft. There are quite a few A40's and A40 RC's for sale all over the place, and the prices seem quite reasonable for a 40-footer, which makes me wonder why an A40 would be less expensive than a 1999 Farr 40 OD (hint: I suspect the difference is "lots of carbon" on the Farr ).

Also have to say I'm not a big fan of galley forward in a performance cruiser - I don't mind it in a full-on race boat, since all you ever do is boil water, but for cruising prefer to have the galley in the conventional place, with the heads in one of the aft quarters. Besides, you've already got me excited about the new A35, which appears to tick all my boxes.

Back to the Grand Surprise - The University team shows how it's supposed to be done, with strong crew hiking, good weight balance downwind, one person on the bow maximum, and fairly good tacking. The only "issues" I observed were: lost the kite too far from the gybe mark and then went for the early douse - that would have cost them some distance; and in that breeze they should have been cross-sheeting the jib upwind - would keep all the weight on the high side and the driver wouldn't have to go low to adjust the jib with the crew on the rail. Quite surprised they weren't doing that because the primary winches are perfectly located for cross-sheeting. Otherwise, the "Gernimo" crew should watch that video and take notes.

BTW, watching the videos of Porto and doing a bit of reading about the city, I'm now rather captivated by it. Seems like a very pleasant place to visit - on the seaside but close enough to Douro to satisfy one's wine tasting needs. What are your thoughts about it? Recommend? Or do you prefer the south coast more?

Best,

MrP


----------



## PCP

*Re: A boat for Mr Pelicano*



MrPelicano said:


> Paulo -
> 
> I was supposed to do the recent Block Island Race on an A40 - not the RC version - but it didn't come together for some reason. I took a look at it yesterday, as it is docked nearby the Express 37. Cool looking boat, in either configuration, though I confess to preferring twin wheels and mainsheet / traveller ahead of the steering position - Geranium Killer is tiller steering and mainsheet / traveller aft. There are quite a few A40's and A40 RC's for sale all over the place, and the prices seem quite reasonable for a 40-footer, which makes me wonder why an A40 would be less expensive than a 1999 Farr 40 OD (hint: I suspect the difference is "lots of carbon" on the Farr ).
> 
> Also have to say I'm not a big fan of galley forward in a performance cruiser - I don't mind it in a full-on race boat, since all you ever do is boil water, but for cruising prefer to have the galley in the conventional place, with the heads in one of the aft quarters. Besides, you've already got me excited about the new A35, which appears to tick all my boxes.
> 
> ...
> 
> BTW, watching the videos of Porto and doing a bit of reading about the city, I'm now rather captivated by it. Seems like a very pleasant place to visit - on the seaside but close enough to Douro to satisfy one's wine tasting needs. What are your thoughts about it? Recommend? Or do you prefer the south coast more?
> 
> Best,
> 
> MrP


Regarding the A40 and the A40rc there is a great difference in price and performance in what regards racing. The A40, the previous boat can be bought sometimes as low as 80/100 000 euros while the TC rarely come below 150 000.

The 40RC has also a better cruising interior and the galley is a "normal" one.






Regarding Portugal, yes Porto is a great city but in what regards seaside cities also Lisboa or Viana do Castelo.

I have recently send some information about it to Steve (Hannah) and I will do the same to you with a PM.

Regarding Lisboa there is a thread with information about it:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/97490-lisbon-may.html

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

The A40 RC is a nice boat, and what's not to like about all those sexy carbon bits?  For some reason it kind of reminds me of a Sydney 38, perhaps because the foredeck and forward cabintop have quite a bit of curvature. In the back, of course, it's a different story.

Just for fun, I took a look at the Key West Race Week 2009 race results, as it is mentioned in the video that the boat would make its racing debut there. Well, they chose the wrong year to go because that was the year the King 40 / Mills 40 showed up, taking 3 of the top 4 finishing positions in IRC B (with a J/44 finishing 3rd - albeit, the very well-sailed "Gold Digger", a local Long Island Sound boat). The A40 RC managed 6th overall, but well out of the hunt, 13.5 points behind the 5th placed J/122. 

But, to be fair, a King 40 will set you back $340,000 or more, while a J/122 is in the same range. Even a Gucci J/44 is going to run $250,000 or more. So, an A40 RC is now looking like a very economical choice indeed, even without the big discount.


----------



## PCP

*A40 RC/King 40*



MrPelicano said:


> The A40 RC is a nice boat, and what's not to like about all those sexy carbon bits?  For some reason it kind of reminds me of a Sydney 38, perhaps because the foredeck and forward cabintop have quite a bit of curvature. In the back, of course, it's a different story.
> 
> Just for fun, I took a look at the Key West Race Week 2009 race results, as it is mentioned in the video that the boat would make its racing debut there. Well, they chose the wrong year to go because that was the year the King 40 / Mills 40 showed up, taking 3 of the top 4 finishing positions in IRC B (with a J/44 finishing 3rd - albeit, the very well-sailed "Gold Digger", a local Long Island Sound boat). The A40 RC managed 6th overall, but well out of the hunt, 13.5 points behind the 5th placed J/122.
> 
> But, to be fair, a King 40 will set you back $340,000 or more, while a J/122 is in the same range. Even a Gucci J/44 is going to run $250,000 or more. So, an A40 RC is now looking like a very economical choice indeed, even without the big discount.


You are a bit out in what regards prices: A 2008 Summit/king 40 goes between $360000/450000. New it should not cost not less than half a million, more if it is on a top configuration.

McMichael Yacht Brokers and Yacht Yard - Summit Yachts International Search

A 2007 A40rc can go for about $ 150 000.

A40RC for sale

Yes, the King 40 is a great racing boat and faster on most conditions than a A40RC.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Francis Joyon with 57 years of age refuses getting old*

Some months ago he beat the absolute solo sail record on the transat to Central America:






and now here he goes again, attempting the big one, the absolute solo North Atlantic Record. He leaved New York today morning doing about 20k in route to Cape Lizard (UK).

He has to do better than* 5 days, 19 hours, 29 minutes and 20 seconds* to beat the actual record that belongs since 2008 to Thomas Coville ("Sodebo").

That's the kind of old men that I like


----------



## PCP

*Americas Cup: more Bullsh*****

If you want to understand what is going one run these articles on a transaltor. they are the best I have read about it:

America's Cup: Artemis macht weiter, doch Chaos droht - Sport | YACHT.DE

America's Cup: "Eine störende und kolossale Pleite" - Sport | YACHT.DE

Meanwhile nobody understands what Artemis, the Challenger of the record agenda and it seems that he is not acting as the representative of challengers. Big confusion

*"Grant Dalton speaks out over Artemis Racing's rejection of their modified schedule proposal:

"The joint proposal put forth by Luna Rossa and Emirates Team New Zealand of starting the Louis Vuitton Cup later in July was done so in the hope of enhancing the event with a full muster of boats from the beginning, and therefore, placing more importance on the racing from the first race, something for which fans and sponsors are craving right now.

"The weighting of points (more points later in July) was also suggested, with the idea being to get racing underway but not determine the results too early in the racing.

Both these proposals were rejected by Artemis racing, the Challenger of Record.

"Normally the challenger series of an America's Cup is run on terms that meet the wishes of the majority of challengers," Dalton said. "This is not the case here with Artemis rejecting the proposal and wanting to continue running an event schedule in which, by under their own admission, they will not compete in in the early stages.

"Obviously it was assumed that 10 weeks after the Artemis tragedy, that having previously taken delivery of their second AC72 they would be ready to race. This is not the case."*

Grant Dalton on the AC34 schedule | The Daily Sail


----------



## PCP

*Route des Princes*

Very interesting this race with three different types of trimarans: 50ft, 70ft and unlimited with only one racing on that class, the 80ft long Price de la Bretagne and I say interesting because the little boats, even without my preferred one (crepes whaou), are putting a big fight against the bigger boats and lead the race till near Gibraltar. Only then the Maxi trimaran and one of the Mod70 were able to pass the three leading 50ft boats that even so are not far away and way ahead of the remaining Mod70. What a fight

It has been a difficult race, most the way upwind and more upwind ahead, probably with 3 meters waves, while going up the West coast of Portugal till Lisbon with 15K winds. It is going to be an uncomfortable and wet ride, but a fast one

Route des Princes 2013


----------



## PCP

*Tan 66*

and since we are talking about multihulls...






the Tan 66 a Marc Van Peteghem design, built by Marsaudon Composite. An all carbon boat made on a shipyard that makes a lot of racing boats. A fast one no doubt.

On the last years the number of big fast casts has increased a lot. It seems conservatism is finally going away in what regards millionaires boats, not only in what regards multihulls but also monohulls: They are more and more modern, faster and faster.


----------



## MrPelicano

While I'm a big fan of the racing multis, when it comes to cruising I tend to view muiltihulls as boats for those who prefer not to hold their wine glass while underway. 

On the other hand, if you want (have) to go cruising with a wife / family that prefers all the comforts of shore-based living, including the pets, then perhaps it is the perfect solution. 

For me, I can't see myself cruising in a multihull. It just wouldn't feel right.

Still beautiful to look at, however.


----------



## PCP

*Sailing and Hungary*

Well, they don't have a sea but they have lake Balaton and lots of wind:


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Sailing and Hungary*



PCP said:


> Well, they don't have a sea but they have lake Balaton and lots of wind:


Wow, what a hate mission for those poor bastards on the Melges 24. 

They certainly do have a lot of wind on Lake Balaton, and it also appears that they only sail upwind, as I did not see any video of a boat going downwind. Does it mean the lake is only one way? 

It was interesting to see how stiff those long, narrow boats are. Crew is sitting comfortably in the cockpit as they simply power through the chop like butter. Impressive. The more modern designs - the ones without 15 fellows on the trapeze - really struggle in the puffs, even with reefed mains - e.g., the X Yachts and the Hanse, as well as several other light displacement fin-keelers.

In the second video, which starts out with the boat going upwind on jib only, I immediately thought to myself: "I wonder where all the windsurfers and kite boarders are?" Then immediately a windsurfer flashes across the screen. 

Anyway, looks like a lot of fun, plus you don't have to rinse salt off everything when you're done. How cool is that?


----------



## PCP

*Hungarian sailboats: Nau 370*

I have posted those videos not only because I didn't knew that in Hungary they have a strong sail activity but also because I saw among those sailboats some modern ones that I didn't recognize. A little search and BIG SURPRISE:

Look at this beauty, designed by Andrej Justin, a Slovenia NA (one that I had already mentioned about another boat) and made by Nautic, a local shipyard with lots of activity and some new beautiful boats.

look at this beauty:






low tech boats? Hummmm:

*"The new model of the Nautic range which follows our philosophy: combining elegance, speed and of course comfort.
Combination of these great features created by Andrej Justin, just as before, who earned international reputation by the RC44 project.The extravagant appearance of the boat reflects the latest trends, paying attention for performance. The large cockpit and interior spaces are unique in this category.

Hull:
Hull and deck fully made of carbon-epoxy sandwich structure with AIREX PVC foam core. Main pieces is pruduced with the latest vacuum infusion technology to reach maximum strength at lowest weight. The hull gains its final stiffness by high temperature heat cure. The coating of the boat made of UV resistant isoftal based gelcoat. Hull and deck is joined by bonding and lamination.

Keel:
"T" shaped structure built up from surface coated steel frame covered by foil and fitted with a cast lead bulb in a weight of 1300 kgs encapsulated in GRP to get perfect shape and prevent corrosion. Keel structure is bonded to the hull recess and also connected by stainless steel bolts to the keelbox through the hull.

Steering: 
Elliptical balance rudder with aluminum or stainless steel shaft covered by GRP foil shape. Self aligning bearings and complete steering gears provided by Jefa with a leather covered dual spoke aluminum wheel in a size of 1700 mm. This system gives a very smooth and accurate steering.

Cockpit:
A very spacious cockpit allows comfortable cruising and easy and fluent movement during racing for the crew. Four lockers help to storage auxiliary stuff. Seats and transom bridge is coverd in teak. A self draining locker can be found below helmsman's position for general use or for life raft. At the stern a power retractable bathing platform installed with a recessed bathing ladder.

Interior:
The huge interior is available in a two cabin and three cabin versions. Interior GRP modules made of epoxy to ensure a winning combination of durability and lightweigth. GRP surfaces comes in white glossy finish equipped with wooden slats and frames for aesthetic look. Two cabin version offers a large aft cabin with much space for two persons and also a spacious front cabin for another two persons, while three cabin layout offers two standard aft cabins and a front cabin for six persons. All the cabins separated by doors from the saloon. Floorboards are made from marine plywood with white striped mahogany finish. Saloon provides two large couches comfortable for six people. The large double leaf fold down table is removable to gain maximum space. Bathroom located behind navigation table separated with door. In three cabin layout it is placed by front cabin accessible from saloon.

Galley takes place at the left of saloon right next to the companionway. L shaped section ensures easy handling of gas stove, compressor cool box and double stainless steel sink. Workbench is made of high resistance sheet. Lockers fitted for kitchen stuffs. Navigation station is at the opposite of galley, build up from a chart table, lockers for devices and a bracket for optional navigation instruments.Lighting are halogen spot lights in the ceilings for general use, and adjustable spots for reading in every cabin. Adjustable powered LED stripes installed in the saloon for oblique moodlighting."*

Have a good look at the boat, a very nice one:

Nautic Boat - Nautic Boat - Nautic 370

except for a lousy galley and (in that boat) no true head? 
I like almost everything about the boat, with the exception of the interior points I mentioned and the quality seems okay.
This seems to be much of a custom boat so it should not be difficult to get a decent cruising interior.

Technical data of the NAU 370 RUN:

Overall length: 10.990 m 
Waterline Length: 10.485 m
Overall width: 3.460
Height: 1900 mm 
Draft - lake / sea: 1.95m/2.45 m 
Keel: 1600 kg 
Total weight carbon 4000 kg

It can also be made in fiberglass and in that case it will weight more 600kg

Should be very fast and stiff, specially with the deep draft. It seems that it is not only the Polish that are making great sailboats

And it is not the only one. that was the one that caught my attention on the movie: 44ft racer by the same NA:






Yes the movie sucks but the boat has only 3000kg and that's a 44fter

Have a look here:

Nautic Boat - Nautic Boat - Nautic 12 Racer


----------



## PCP

*Dragonfly 32*



MrPelicano said:


> While I'm a big fan of the racing multis, when it comes to cruising I tend to view muiltihulls as boats for those who prefer not to hold their wine glass while underway.
> 
> On the other hand, if you want (have) to go cruising with a wife / family that prefers all the comforts of shore-based living, including the pets, then perhaps it is the perfect solution.
> 
> For me, I can't see myself cruising in a multihull. It just wouldn't feel right.
> 
> Still beautiful to look at, however.


And in what I hope would be my last post for some time let me say to Mr Pelicano that I disagree. If not for the price I would love to have one of these:






The monohull is a Pogo 50 and it made 4th overall in the last ARC among 300 sailboats beating many racer cruisers much bigger. well, there was not a Dragonfly 32 making that Transat otherwise it would have ashamed a lot of boats, multihulls and monohulls alike.

To be true I would have preferred the Dragonfly 35 but the 32 as such a smart and good quality interior that I would not mind to cruise in one, quite the contrary.

The 35:











In fact the 32 is a superior design and the detail of the stairs sliding around to give access to the back cabin or to allow space to work on the galley is just a great design, as the location of the refrigerator. The diference in interior space is not what one would expect between a 32 and a 35ft boat.

By the way I visited the boat in Dusseldorf and the guy from the shipyard was making fun of me because I could not find the refrigerator. Yes It has one and a very big one for a 32ft boat and yes, I could not find the dam thing without the him telling me where to look. Of course my wife is not of the same opinion in what regards interior space, so that ends up dreaming of having one






Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Enjoy your summer cruise, Paulo!


----------



## PCP

*Elan 400*



Faster said:


> Enjoy your summer cruise, Paulo!


Thanks all.

All is packed up. Leaving tomorrow.

One more post, the Elan 400 test sail by YachtingMonthly.

The last words pretty much sums it up : *It's quick.. It performed beautifully...it feels wonderfully...it felt delicious..it is huge fun ....It looks amazing, it sails like a dream.*

..and this tester is known to be a man that normally does not make a lot of praises about the boats he tests. Fact is that when he is not impressed he pretty much describes the boat. It seems that he was impressed by this one


----------



## MrPelicano

Having a safe and relaxing cruise, Paulo! We will all eagerly await your return, all tanned and rested.

MrP.


----------



## Joe Cooper

Re,OSTAR and proposed decline in "greatness" at the top of this thread, could not disagree more. Hasler proposed the race originally: "to encourage the development of suitable boats gear and techniques for single-handed ocean crossings under sail". This a direct quote from "Blondie" by Ewen sSouthby-Tailyour's, published by Leo Cooper 1998, 2003. The entries in years subsequent to 1960 all conformed to this goal.The historical fact that the Race gave birth to the entire single handed racing scene as we know it to day is a lasting tribute to Haslers vision. The fact that the Big Solo Races of today are in boats inconceivable in Haslers day is I suggest irreverent. Today's entrants are exercising the same learning and testing skill and in boats that I suggest would have Hasler smiling today. This race going on now is precisely the OSTAR. The development of "The Transat" by OC's Mark Tuner was in response to the "OSTAR getting to unwieldy and unsuited for the demands of a professional sport and in no way diminishes the present race.
Cheers joe cooper middletown RI


----------



## MrPelicano

Joe Cooper said:


> Hasler proposed the race originally: "to encourage the development of suitable boats gear and techniques for single-handed ocean crossings under sail".


Hi Joe - Not to split hairs or anything, but if the purpose of the race was as stated - i.e., to encourage the development of suitable boats, gear, etc... - I think Paulo does have a point when he notes the OSTAR has become essentially a "sail what you got" race open to those who would otherwise not be able to compete in one of the Transats oriented more toward professionals.

Personally, I would suggest that the Mini Transat 6.50 is actually more in keeping with the spirit of Hasler's original goal. Classe Mini is a seething cauldron of innovation, attracting both professionals and amateurs, many sailing boats they've designed and built themselves. At the same time, it's a Transat that anyone can afford.

I was following the Mini 6.50 2013 Trophée Marie-Agnes Péron (MAP) race the past two days, and the competition in both the Proto and Series classes was incredible. And as if to reinforce that you don't have to break the bank to be competitive, the 7th placed Proto is boat 198 (we're up in the low 900s for 6.50s these days), while the boat that won (747) was designed and built by its original owner (David Raison) who went out and won the 2011 Transat in it.

So, if you compare / contrast the OSTAR in its current format with the Mini Transat, I think one might agree it is truly the latter that is encouraging the development of suitable boats, gear, etc. for solo ocean crossings. Thus, if the former were more like the latter, it would more truly reflect its founder's original intent.

Having said that, crossing oceans alone, in a sailboat, is a significant accomplishment no matter what you're sailing, so I in no way wish to diminish the achievements of the OSTAR competitors. It's just not much of a race, is all. 

Best,

MrP (your neighbor at the west end of LIS)


----------



## MrPelicano

Meanwhile, at the Solitaire de Figaro, I am not in the least surprised to see Fredric Duthil quietly laying the groundwork to assume the overall lead in the race. While Yann Eliés and Armel Le Cléac'h have fallen 2-4 miles to the back of the fleet, Duthil is currently up in third position, within sight of the two leaders. He was my favorite when the event began, and I have not been disappointed.

Of course, as we learned from the last leg, when it appeared for some time that Gildas Morvan would run away with the win, the wind gods smile on whoever they like, and coming into Giron that "whoever" turned out to be Le Cléac'h. The Solitaire is such a technical race precisely because it is a "near" offshore event, which means that geography plays a much bigger part in affecting the wind conditions at any given instant, not to mention the strong currents to negotiate. Yes, this is an event that grooms future IMOCA champions for sure, but I think it is pretty challenging in its own right. And just because your name is engraved on the trophy from the past, doesn't mean you will dominate in the present. 

I hope everyone was paying attention to the Trophée Marie-Agnes Péron Mini 6.50 race, which just concluded a couple hours ago. It gave us a preview of what I think we will see on the 2013 Transat proper. Indeed, it actually gave us a reminder of the 2011 Transat, as Giancarlo Pedote sailed David Raison's famous 747 scow mini - winner of the 2011 Transat - to victory in the 2013 Trophée MAP, besting Gwénolé Gahinet, sailing Antoine Rioux's 800 (which finished 3rd in the 2011 Transat) by 27 minutes. Oh, by the way, Gahinet finished first in the Series class in the 2011 Transat. .

In third place was Bertrand Delesne (754), who also finished 3rd overall in the 2011 Transat in that boat. Right behind Delesne we find Joerg Riechers, 5th place finisher in the 2011 Transat, in his 753. 

I also want to note that Sébastien Picault sailed his "antique" 198 to seventh in the Trophée MAP - the same boat he sailed to a 12th (out of 36) place finish in the 2011 Transat! That is some amazing sailing and a lot of confidence in your boat; one can imagine him being a major contender in a newer boat, but sometimes you sail what you love. 

Really looking forward to the 2013 Transat later in the year. I think it is going to be an epic race, finishing in a new destination - Martinique rather than Brazil. Just wish I was doing it.


----------



## Joe Cooper

OSTAR is a Run wot ya brung? Exactly! Jester, gipsy moth what ever number, a 19 footer (pre mini, mini even before sopranino) a folk boat and a vertue. The time spread between 
Chichester and le comb was about 40 days I reckon so arguements about the non race aspects of the present edition does no justice to the race, its history or the competitors. Is it s race? Come to Newport and tellRichard Lett and Jack Sandberg that they were not in a race. I'd be interested to hear their response.
Yes the mini t is a great ever but frankly it too has progresses a long way from Bob Salmons original idea.Agree the minis in particular and solo offshore racing in general offer much more to the average weekend warrior than Larry's Great Adventure. For more on this read wind check mag one or two issues ago-coops corner. Oh BTW David Raison is a naval archeticht, hardly the average bear Hasler had in mind. Cheers cooper


----------



## MrPelicano

Joe - Not saying OSTAR is not a race, just not necessarily the race Hasler envisioned. Sure everyone sailed what they had at the time, but if that was the long term intent, then perhaps Blondie might have phrased his vision a bit differently. For me personally, racing very old technology is not the best manifestation of "encouraging development..." one can think of. And I think this is what Paulo was reacting to.

If the OSTAR is intended as simply a race-what-ya-got primarily for the under 50' / non-professional crowd, then that makes it more like the ARC and less like the Transat Jacques Vabre, which is perfectly fine. But that suggests that we ought not take Hasler's vision too seriously, which is also fine.

I was aware that DR is a naval architect, though certainly not a well known one before he built the famous scow (747). There are other guys in the Classe Mini who are not NAs who have designed and/or built their own boats. And while I doubt Bob Salmon envisioned that his Transat would eventually become the gateway to professional solo offshore racing that it is today, this description from Wikipedia nicely captures, to my mind, the irony of what OSTAR is today:

"Bob Salmon developed the idea of a mini-transatlantic race in the late 1970s in England with the intent of promoting affordable offshore solo racing. It was partially conceived as a response to the trend for bigger and more expensive boats such as sailed in the OSTAR race that seemed to exclude ocean racing for sailors with moderate budgets."

If true, it suggests that OSTAR quickly became something other than Hasler envisioned and that today's OSTAR is more in keeping with what he (and Salmon, for that matter) had in mind. However, in that case Hasler probably should have expressed his vision differently, IMHO. Anyway, Paulo sees the OSTAR that Salmon was reacting to as the golden era of that event, while he sees today's version as a move in the wrong direction.

Actually (since I'm already beating a dead horse - no actual horses injured, of course), I would say that another race, near and dear to Paulo's heart, is probably close to what OSTAR ought to be, if we want to take Hasler at his word: The Transquadra. That race is designed to keep things affordable while, at the same time, leaving open room for innovation - albeit, probably not for amateur design/build. But it is driving the development of some outstanding performance cruising yachts, suitable for solo ocean crossing, from the likes of JPK, RM, Jeanneau, and Structures (Pogo). Just before he left to go cruising, Paulo sent me information on the newly announced RM 890, which will bring the qualities of RM boats at a more affordable (for me) price.  But until it's built, I'm still ogling the Malango 888 and 999.


----------



## robelz

IDEC is only 30 miles behind the record (after 140 miles yesterday)...


----------



## Edward3

+36


----------



## robelz

Edward3 said:


> +36


145 miles ahead and only 200 miles to go...

He failed to get the 24hrs record by only 2 miles (664 instead of 666 miles)...


----------



## robelz

Finally he did it with 16 hours less... Congratulations!


----------



## Faster

Can't find an English version.. but..Trimaran IDEC


----------



## Mr W

*Pogo 30*

Hey guys,

Has anyone read any of the Pogo 30 tests available yet? I tried to pick up the digital version of Yacht, but I can´t figure out how... 

//Mr W


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Pogo 30*



Mr W said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Has anyone read any of the Pogo 30 tests available yet? I tried to pick up the digital version of Yacht, but I can´t figure out how...
> 
> //Mr W


The Pogo 30 review in Yacht is supposed to be released today (19 June) in Issue 14. You should be able to download it here but it will cost you €4,90 and hopefully you can read German. 

Presumably Voiles et Voiliers will have a review pretty soon. Yachting World will eventually get around to something, no doubt.

Best,

MrP


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Pogo 30*



MrPelicano said:


> The Pogo 30 review in Yacht is supposed to be released today (19 June) in Issue 14. You should be able to download it here but it will cost you €4,90 and hopefully you can read German.
> 
> Presumably Voiles et Voiliers will have a review pretty soon. Yachting World will eventually get around to something, no doubt.
> 
> Best,
> 
> MrP


Hi,

Thanks, but I tried that allready. There was an extra charge of EUR 2,00 for delivery... so I guess it´s not very digital 

//Mr W


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Pogo 30*



Mr W said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks, but I tried that allready. There was an extra charge of EUR 2,00 for delivery... so I guess it´s not very digital
> 
> //Mr W


I also don't have access to the digital edition of Yacht, but I ran their online summary through Bing's translator and -where possible- tried to use my little knowledge of the difficult but beautiful German language to convert this to a more or less readable English text:

Exklusiv: Pogo 30 im großen YACHT-Test - Galerie*|*YACHT.DE 
(Also check out the pictures there)

_Pogo 30 YACHT-test

17.06.2013 Jochen Rieker - YACHT got two days time to try out the quick and easy boat in the Bay of Biscay. An encounter of a special kind.
It is difficult to characterize the recent Pogo without superlatives. She has power in abundance - sail carrying number 5.5, a value that only racing yachts achieve. It weighs a ton (!) less than comparable boats from large-scale production. And thanks to a reduced basic equipment it stays more enjoyable in list price just below 100,000 euro (!).

Who orders meaningful, if not necessary extra tools such as the electro-hydraulic retractable swing keel (minimal depth then 1.05 metres, eased off 2.50 meters), the carbon mast by Axxon, the retractable carbon bowsprit and a set of high-quality sails, navigation electronics, lands at 130,000 euros.
That's a lot of money for a boat of little more than 9 meters length. But it is well spent. Because with a Pogo, you pay for the omission.

This is reflected in the low displacement of only 2.8 tons, as well as in the very low center of gravity. Therefore, the boat is so nimble it needs no indomitable amount of sail area to be fast. The quality of the GRP works in any case is beyond any doubt. One finds no such precise fit and smooth surfaces on hull, keel and rudders - except on racers.
You must be aware of the interior, not sparse but also not comparable to what other performance cruisers offer. But this is compensated for by the sailing qualities mile for mile - even in light to medium winds, where the Pogo 30 is second to none.

Here is the commented photo gallery with many detailed photos. You can find the extensive test in YACHT 14, now available at the kiosk._

I don't know the exact definition of the "sail carrying number" (_Segeltragezahl 5,5_), certainly some kind of SA/D displacement ratio but with figures I am not used to. No doubt however, this points towards excellent performance.

And I am also not familiar with the concept of „paying for he omission" but I'm sure this also only has to do with both Bing's and my own insufficient understanding of German language .

This is of course a much more objective opinion than what the French yachting press can tell us anyway. Also they use, this time more predictably, a lot of superlatives.

I already posted this link to the teaser video of Voiles & Voiliers:
Pogo 30 : digne successeur du 8,50 (teaser)

The „rock & roll" qualities of the 30' are obviously stated, although the more cruising related aspects are better highlighted in the extensive test report and video (subscribers only ).

But I think I can post here my translation of their introduction without violating the copyright of this magazine :

_Bigger, stiffer, carrying more sail but also more polyvalent, here is the Pogo 30 that succeeds to the famous 8.50. Designed by Pascal Conq and Pierre Forgia, this new model is the synthesis of the experience of its builder Structures who cultivates very well its different approach._

And their conclusion:

_*Unique!*
More extreme than its predecessor, the Pogo 30 capitalises on a now recognised concept, with a market consisting of more than a few aficionados. One can like it in its simplest version, but with the right options it can also be an alternative for a 10.50 if one doesn't have the budget. 10% cheaper than a Sun Fast 3200 or a Malango, the Pogo 30 is also more accessible than many IRC models, which puts it in the middle of the market._

Having seen and read all this, but without having set a foot an the actual boat, let alone sailing it, my first, very provisional and personal opinion is that this looks very much like a downsized 12.50.

So I expect the same performance, which must then sometimes be quite spectacular . 
Plus simplicity and efficiency allover, both out- and inside and certainly for the single- or short handed. No fuzz at all but with everything you expect from a fast cruiser available, including comfort.

At least if you can appreciate the minimalistic but otherwise very efficient open and „loft style" concept. And cope with the inevitable drawbacks of a very light and beamy design (cfr. Paulo's posts about wave drag), itself very seaworthy (idem about stability).

I personally didn't regret our choice for such a unusual design for a second yet. But as said many times before: „de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum". 
Or as Paulo states even better: „varietas delectat".

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## Edward3

Got back to looking at Pogo 30 website and finally noticed there are only 4 winches on cabin top??? Odd arrangement if shorthanded, would mean the auto pilot will need to be on a lot to go from tiller to cabin top to trim sails.


----------



## EricKLYC

Edward3 said:


> Got back to looking at Pogo 30 website and finally noticed there are only 4 winches on cabin top??? Odd arrangement if shorthanded, would mean the auto pilot will need to be on a lot to go from tiller to cabin top to trim sails.


That's exactly the shorthanded concept, Edward.

No backbreaking exercises on the leeward coamings, where any strong gust can throw you into the guardrails. All winching is being done straight upright, in a much more comfortable, efficient and especially safe position. Within the cockpit, behind the coachroof and if necessary under coverage of the sprayhood. And -last but not least- looking straightforward at what you're actually doing with the powerful winch, which is certainly very helpful for not unnecesseraly destroying expensive gear.

The advanced position of the single tiller on e.g. the 12.50 should allow you to winch solo without leaving the helm. But let's be honest, since we only have two hands, without competent crew most of us will engage the autopilot anyway before trimming the sails. At least I do.
Except for the main - that's if good hardware such as a performant sheet track is available - I don't think many of us would try to hold the tiller/wheel in one hand and winch e.g. any foresail sheet with the other.

So this concept really does work very well, especially shorthanded.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Pogo 30*



EricKLYC said:


> Because with a Pogo, you pay for the omission.
> 
> This is reflected in the low displacement of only 2.8 tons, as well as in the very low center of gravity. Therefore, the boat is so nimble it needs no indomitable amount of sail area to be fast. The quality of the GRP works in any case is beyond any doubt. One finds no such precise fit and smooth surfaces on hull, keel and rudders - except on racers.
> 
> And I am also not familiar with the concept of „paying for he omission" but I'm sure this also only has to do with both Bing's and my own insufficient understanding of German language .
> 
> Eric


Eric - What they're referring to by "pay for the omission" has to do with the quality of the lay-up / build quality and finish. In other words, what you're paying for is Structures' ability to precisely control the amount of resin that goes into the hull and results in the low displacement without sacrificing strength and stiffness. In other words, you sacrifice or omit "frills" for race-caliber build and finish. Structures is spending your money on the fundamentals, not on the creature comforts - if you want luxury and comfort at that price point, you have to sacrifice build quality. That's not how they operate and it's why so many people have a high regard for their work.

I have to say that €130K / $170K for a 30-foot performance cruiser with swing keel, carbon rig, sails, and electronics, with race calibre fit-and-finish, strikes me as a pretty attractive package. We're not far from a new Beneteau First 30 (though enough of them are starting to show up on the used market at under €115K / $150K to make that boat a bit more attractive). But nobody will ever confuse the build quality of a Pogo 30 with a First 30, with all due respect to Beneteau, who build solid, high-performance boats, as race results show.

If Paulo hadn't teased me with the new RM 890 recently announced, it would just be a choice between the Pogo 30 and the Malango 888 or 999. Now I'm going to have to think...


----------



## Jeff_H

I sometimes joke that if you wait longer enough any boat ever built and still floating will eventually show up in Annapolis Harbor. I first said that after tacking through Annapolis Harbor and ducking the stern of a 1939 cutter that I had owned a decade or two earlier. Last night this interesting boat showed up in Annapolis Harbor.





I'm sure that Paulo will recognize this boat. She is even more striking in real life. I said 'hello' and let them know that I had seen them on the internet.


----------



## MrPelicano

On a slightly different topic, the final leg of the Solitaire de Figaro started a couple hours ago, from Roscoff to Dieppe. My man, Frédéric Duthil, tops the leader board and, considering this will be his last Figaro (so he said) after 10 of them, it would be great to go out on the top of the podium. 

There was a very good interview with him on the event site where he discussed the leg and what he's anticipating. Noting that the forecast calls for 30-40 knots on the nose as the fleet rounds Cherbourg, he predicted that no doubt "idiots" (he used a stronger word) like him would immediately put up their spinnakers and go all in.  Very funny and self-effacing fellow.

At the start, Michel Desjoyeux jumped out to a .2nm lead - the map tool visually distorts the actual distances, making leads appear larger than they are - but it was still quite surprising to see the Professor put the hammer down so quickly. Duthil is sitting in 11th but the entire fleet is all bunched at present.

Sadly, it looked like Alexis Loison (Groupe Fiva) collided with something. The start video showed his boat tied up alongside a wharf, then zoomed in to show the damage to his bow. The tracker has him in the race so perhaps it occurred before the start and he was able to continue? I didn't have the audio on so didn't hear the commentary about it. Hope he can keep going, after such a great first leg.

Anyway, it will all be settled soon, after which we can get ready for the Tour de France a la Voile (and that other Tour de France thing - the one where they ride bicycles on drugs).


----------



## robelz

*Re: Pogo 30*



EricKLYC said:


> I don't know the exact definition of the "sail carrying number" (_Segeltragezahl 5,5_), certainly some kind of SA/D displacement ratio but with figures I am not used to. No doubt however, this points towards excellent performance.











x=upwind sail area in square meters
y=displacement in tons

Cruisers usually are about 4-5, performance cruisers 5-6.


----------



## MrPelicano

Well, sometimes things just don't go your way, at least if you're Frédéric Duthil in the Solitaire de Figaro. All he had to do was keep up near the front of the fleet for the final leg to Dieppe, but ended up buried deep, while Yann Eliés managed to pull off a huge turn-around and claw his way to the top, for the overall victory. Duthil finished 6th overall, just ahead of Michel Desjoyeux and Armel Le Cléac'h - I suppose that's nothing to sneeze at, unless you just missed winning the whole thing by 1h 26m.

I'm looking forward to Duthil's recap of what went wrong in the leg, because he started dropping to the back very early in the race and never recovered, even when the fleet encountered the 30-40 knot breeze in which he usually does pretty well, particularly off the wind. Not this time. 

That wraps up a very exciting 2013 Solitaire. Next up, in 5 days, the Tour de France a la Voile, which is always exciting, even if it lacks the drama of singlehanding. However, plenty of big guns in the hunt this year, including Franck Cammas, Thomas Coville, Vincent Riou, and Daniel Souben (two-time winner of this race). Says a lot about the competitiveness of these skippers that they would invest the time in such a long, grueling event. On the other hand, it gets considerable press coverage which their sponsors love (Groupama, Sodebo, etc.), which means more money flowing into their major offshore multihull programs. 

Really encourage everyone to follow the race. The Archambault M34 is a boat that Paulo has covered in the recent past, and watching these guys blazing along under asymmetrical kites in big breeze is not to be missed.  Competition should be make this one too close to call.

Here's the highlight reel from 2012.


----------



## PCP

*Joyon, 56 year's old at his best.*



robelz said:


> Finally he did it with 16 hours less... Congratulations!







I would like to know how he does it, I mean beaten young kids at 56. I stopped motorcycle racing at 48 and the younger racers were almost always surprised when i took the helmet after a long race to chat with someone I had been battling for hours....now, Joyon makes that not at the middle of the race but at the TOP, winning and a lot older than I was. Big respect for the man

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pogo 30*



Mr W said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks, but I tried that allready. There was an extra charge of EUR 2,00 for delivery... so I guess it´s not very digital
> 
> //Mr W


With some time it will appear here for download:

http://www.yacht.de/service/downloa...tle/direction/ASC/rubrik/32/Testberichte.html

It costs only 2 euro you can pay with paypal and in the time that they will give you to download the test you will have time to download more 3 for free. They come in PDF format and very good quality. A long list of tests available

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pogo 30*



MrPelicano;1046784... said:


> Structures is spending your money on the fundamentals, not on the creature comforts - if you want luxury and comfort at that price point, you have to sacrifice build quality. That's not how they operate and it's why so many people have a high regard for their work.


Regarding money let me point out that Pogo is the only shipyard of this dimension that does not have any dealers. You buy direct and save about 25% on the dealer's cut. They have confidence in their excellent built quality and make arrangements with the best local shipyards (regarding the place the boat is sold) if something is needed.

I never have been inside a Pogo. They go to boatshows but only with scale models and boat plans to keep it less expensive. Only on the in the water shows when a local client don't mind to have his boat on the show they indulge in showing the boats. Otherwise you have to go to the factory and get a test sail arranged with a client boat. Their interior is not their main argument so a boat show is not very important. Sailing the boat is what sells the boats



MrPelicano;1046784... said:


> I have to say that €130K / $170K for a 30-foot performance cruiser with swing keel, carbon rig, sails, and electronics, with race calibre fit-and-finish, strikes me as a pretty attractive package. We're not far from a new Beneteau First 30 (though enough of them are starting to show up on the used market at under €115K / $150K to make that boat a bit more attractive). But nobody will ever confuse the build quality of a Pogo 30 with a First 30, with all due respect to Beneteau, who build solid, high-performance boats, as race results show.
> 
> If Paulo hadn't teased me with the new RM 890 recently announced, it would just be a choice between the Pogo 30 and the Malango 888 or 999. Now I'm going to have to think...


If you are going to sail alone I would say you will want a Pogo. If you are going to cruise extensively with your wife, maybe the RM makes more sense.

If we were talking about the Pogo 10.50, the space/comfort and tankage would be more than enough (I guess) for you and your wife in what regards cruising. Regarding a Pogo 30 I have doubts and blindly I would say that probably the little RM offers a lot more in what regards cruising, comfort and Storage than the Pogo with a less bright sailing performance.

That's easy to decide: if the Pogo is enough in what regards cruising, that's your boat, but take your wife with you to see both boats unless you want to send up sailing and cruising alone. I am assuming that by your profile you would like to cruise extensively and not be limited to a week's long cruising.

Anyway, that's your and your wife´s call

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Fox 10.20, Capado*



Jeff_H said:


> I sometimes joke that if you wait longer enough any boat ever built and still floating will eventually show up in Annapolis Harbor. I first said that after tacking through Annapolis Harbor and ducking the stern of a 1939 cutter that I had owned a decade or two earlier. Last night this interesting boat showed up in Annapolis Harbor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure that Paulo will recognize this boat. She is even more striking in real life. I said 'hello' and let them know that I had seen them on the internet.


Thanks Jeff,

the two last two movies from them:











By the way, the boat is for sell. This was their plan since the beginning: To have a new boat built (with some work made by them), to take a year for circumnavigating, to sell the boat at the end (that's the only way they could afford it). The boat is fully equipped for long range cruising, it has only one year but many miles and they are asking 150 000 euros for it. Maybe they sell for less.

Hey Mr Pelicano and about this one as an option for what you are looking for? I bet it is faster than the little RM. Have a look:

CAPADO creative boat

FoX Technology - Yacht Design and Engineering

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Route des Princes*

I point you guys to this race, it seems that you are not looking, or at least not posting here about it...and you should. Great images and some danger involved:






Route de Princes: Verstörende Bildserie einer Kenterung - Sport | YACHT.DE


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## desert rat

PDP watching your videos has done terrible things to an adrenaline junkie ME. I have been looking at long range crusers, but now i begin to want to go fast.


----------



## PCP

*La solitaire du Figaro*



MrPelicano said:


> Meanwhile, at the Solitaire de Figaro, I am not in the least surprised to see Fredric Duthil quietly laying the groundwork to assume the overall lead in the race. While Yann Eliés and Armel Le Cléac'h have fallen 2-4 miles to the back of the fleet, Duthil is currently up in third position, within sight of the two leaders. He was my favorite when the event began, and I have not been disappointed.
> 
> .. The Solitaire is such a technical race precisely because it is a "near" offshore event, which means that geography plays a much bigger part in affecting the wind conditions at any given instant, not to mention the strong currents to negotiate. Yes, this is an event that grooms future IMOCA champions for sure, but I think it is pretty challenging in its own right. And just because your name is engraved on the trophy from the past, doesn't mean you will dominate in the present.
> ....


Well not this year. For the first time since I canot remember one sailor winning two consecutive editions.That show how competitive this race is and the huge number of sailors with winning ambitions. Th honor belongs to Yann Elies. Chapeau to him

*Yann Elies and his Groupe Queguiner-Leucemie Espoir crossed the finish line off Dieppe at 20:05:09 UTC to take second on the fourth and final leg from Roscoff, but overall honours in the 2013 Solitaire du Figaro.

"On cumulative elapsed time, Elies won by 26 minutes and 30 seconds from Xavier Macaire on Skipper Herault and was 33 minutes 6 seconds ahead of leg 3 winner Morgan Lagraviere on Vendee in third. Over the last 24 hours both Macaire and Lagraviere had been in a position to take overall victory in this year's race, but ultimately it was Elies who prevailed.

Significantly after he won last year, Elies is the only back to back winner in the race's recent history (the only other person ever to have scored consecutive victories being Guy Cornu in 1975-6).

He also joins the elite club of double Solitaire winners, including fellow competitors in this race Armel le Cleac'h (Banque Populaire), Jeremie Beyou (Maitre CoQ) and Gilles le Baud (Carnac Thalasso & SPA), plus in past years Cornu, Nicolas Troussel, Jean Marie Vidal, and Gilles Gahinet. Only Jean le Cam, Michel Desjoyeaux and Philippe Poupon, remain the super-elite, each winners of the race three times.

For Elies, 39, this is his 14th participation in La Solitaire du Figaro, his first having been back in 1997. Aside from his being a regular fixture in this event, Elies is also a two time winner of the Jules Verne Trophy on both occasions with Bruno Peyron, first on board Orange 1 in 2002 and then with Orange 2 in 2005. In 2000 he competed in The Race aboard the Cam Lewis-skippered Team Adventure maxi-catamaran. However he is perhaps best known for competing in 2008 Vendee Globe when he had to be rescued from his yacht Generali by the Australian navy aft breaking his femur mid-Southern Ocean. He is also a second generation Figaro sailor - his father Patrick won the predecessor to La Solitaire, the Course de l'Aurore, in 1979.

...

In leg four any three of these skippers, plus fourth placed Xavier Macaire on Skipper Herault, a further 8 minutes and 7 seconds back from Elies, were in with a chance of claiming overall victory. First Duthil fell by the wayside on the long big wind run down the south coast of the UK last night, at one point dropping back to 28 miles from the leader.

Lagraviere looked to be in good shape rounding Wolf Rock in first place, but lost his advantage by diving inshore before Start Point. Macaire was leading from Start Point until one third of the way back across the Channel. But ultimately overall victory belonged to Elies. He match raced and was eventually overtaken by Adrien Hardy coming into the Antifer mark off Le Havre, but he had done enough and overall victory was his.

On his arrival a jubilant but tired Elies commented: "It's incredible. Xavier and Adrien were two warriors and put up a really good fight. Ultimately Xavier could not play the final because of the problems he had with his water ballast.

...

Adrien Hardy arrived in Cascais less than three minutes ahead of Elies to win leg 4.

"I'm really happy because it was really hard with a fight throughout, a very tough competition! I've managed to keep a bit of energy even though I have been very, very tired. I am very happy to win this leg because it has been the most difficult of this Solitaire."*

Yann Elies wins 2013 Solitaire du Figaro | The Daily Sail

Second overall was Xavier, the one we saw, on a recentely posted video, making that very free sailing "figure" with a Figaro. For noting the great fair play of Ellies that comment the big fight he had with Xavier and mention the technicall problems in Xavier boat (Water Ballast) that had prevented him to took that fight to the end. Even so after so many days of racing Xavier lost only 26 minutes to Ellies.





Arrivée de Yann Elies - La Solitaire du Figaro... _di lasolitairedufigaro_





Arrivée de Xavier Macaire - La Solitaire du... _di lasolitairedufigaro_


----------



## PCP

*Comet 41s*

and last post for some time: I am in Fiumicino, the boat is finally ready and loaded. I am only waiting for my liferaft that was delivered by mistake to some other boat (I got a much bigger one) and tomorrow night I will sail South.

From the house of Comet I can offer an world exclusive, the first photos on the net of the new Comet 41s, the upgraded version of my boat, that will be presented in some moths in Genova boat show.

The same hull and cabin, the same interior, two wheel set up, a nicer extension for the geennaker as well as a torpedo keel (that saves some weight to the boat) are the main differences.

The boat was tied along our own so you can see the differences:


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Pogo 30*



robelz said:


> x=upwind sail area in square meters
> y=displacement in tons
> 
> Cruisers usually are about 4-5, performance cruisers 5-6.


Thanks Robelz, that's also what I thought. 
But for e.g. the Pogo 30 with around 60 m2 and 3 tons I'd expect a figure of around 20 

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Comet 41s*



PCP said:


> From the house of Comet I can offer an world exclusive, the first photos on the net of the new Comet 41s, the upgraded version of my boat, that will be presented in some moths in Genova boat show.
> 
> The same hull and cabin, the same interior, two wheel set up, a nicer extension for the geennaker as well as a torpedo keel (that saves some weight to the boat) are the main differences.
> 
> The boat was tied along our own so you can see the differences:


Two versions of a very nice yacht indeed, Paulo.

Twin wheels are getting very popular and now you see them even on much smaller boats. The advantage is of course more easy circulation to the aftermost part of the cockpit and access to the sea, but here they have sacrified a lot of length on the main traveller, something I consider a very important piece of gear on a performance yacht such as this. Another drawback is the very significant loss of rudder feeling at the helm because of the double mechanism.

And from a purely esthetical point of view, I much prefer the slim bowsprit than this massive bow extension.

(I suppose the teak is an option , one I would not take even for free. Because of the difficulty to obtain wood of good -slow breed- quality, the better antislip performance of modern decks and paints, the significant extra weight.)

So I think this new Comet 41S will only make yours more valuable, Paulo !
Enjoy your cruise and come back to us with lots of wonderful new experiences .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Comet 41s*



EricKLYC said:


> Another drawback is the very significant loss of rudder feeling at the helm because of the double mechanism.
> 
> Eric


I cannot speak for the twin-wheel set-up on the Comet 41, but I've sailed boats with all three configurations - tiller, single wheel and double wheel - and I don't think there is any siginificant difference in feel between the single and double wheel, if they are set-up and tensioned properly. Obviously, the tiller gives the best feel, particularly upwind, but the conveniences of the double wheel are well worth the slight loss of touch.

In addition to allowing easier access to the stern, it also allows easier movement of headsails from below, during sail changes (more important for racing but handy for cruising, as well, if you're not using furling), and, in my opinion, it is a real pleasure for extended downwind driving. Since everything is done in carbon these days, I don't even think there's that much weight difference between 1 wheel or 2 (OK, maybe a little, but I'm thinking the builders have got this optimized by now).

On the other hand, for solo sailing I would opt for either a single or twin tiller (depending on boat length) because most of the time the autohelm is driving the boat and having no wheels in the cockpit creates a lot of open space, which I like. And for those times you feel like steering, then you have the nice touch of the tiller while leaning back comfortably against the lifelines.

Both Comets are gorgeous boats, but I'm in agreement with Eric that the dolphin nose on the new one is a bit inelegant. If I was racing I'd want a carbon sprit optimized for IRC. For cruising, something simple and preferably detachable or retractable. Also not a fan of teak decks, even though they look posh. Do like all the opening ports for circulation. If someone offered me either boat, I would take it happily.


----------



## HMoll

About the twin wheels (which I would still prefer on a next boat), one observation I've had is that it seems that the gearing is much higher (more turns) than one big wheel, in order to manage the same forces with a smaller diameter. You can see helmsman working twice as much and wheels spinning fast. Big, quick hand movement required. That's the only negative that I can appreciate about the twin wheel setup. Must be tiring, but then, on some of the recent reaching designs, there would be no single wheel big enough!

Paulo, that is one sexy Comet, but needs a serious nosejob. Looks like a motoryacht pulpit! Thanks for sharing. Enjoy your cruising!


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## Edward3

I've got a lot of time on big centerline wheels and can tell you know after driving twin wheel configurations (with centerline rudder only) there is no comparison. Handling, vision, ease of movement thru cockpit... is superior to the single wheel. This probably comes with costs of having two carbon wheels, Jefa Steering Systems including rack and pinion pedestals and steerers...
I wouldn't even consider a new build without this system. 
Still like the feel of a single tiller but, can be a bit tiring on long reaches and are limited to size of boat.


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## robelz

Has anyone heard of the Anteros 36 yet? Pretty light, but seems to need a crew...


----------



## MrPelicano

*BIRW & Tour de France a la Voile*

Not that it means that much, but Mark Mills' designs took the first 3 places in IRC 2 at Block Island Race Week. In first was the Summit 40 "DownTime", followed by the King 40 "White Witch" and the Mills 43 Custom "Cool Breeze". The Farr 42 IRC "Convictus Maximus" finished 4th. There's an interesting thread in Sailing Anarchy thread comparing the Farr 42 IRC with the Summit / King 40 (basically the same boat), commenting on how the Mills boats have dominated IRC since they were introduced, several years ago.

Meanwhile, I'm quite disappointed by the very limited Web coverage of the Tour de France a la Voile, which kicked off today with the start of Leg 1 from Dunkerque to Breskens. There's no video, no photos, no tracker, not even any news flash. The Facebook page has a little more, but when you compare this to the Solitaire de Figaro or to any of the Classe Mini events, the lack of professional media coverage is appalling. Very, very surprised by this, and it doesn't bode well for the future of the race.


----------



## HMoll

We haven't posted pictures of the RM 890 yet. Really like the lines and proportions on this one. Maybe they should've gone one more meter on this one, to 990, in order to get a forward looking nav desk!

Regards,

Hans


----------



## MrPelicano

*Tour de France a la Voile*

OK, so it looks like Facebook is where the Tour de France a la Voile coverage is to be found. Nice, but pretty low budget. With only 7 teams in this year's edition I guess funding sort of dried up.

However, the racing appears to be very good, with 3 windward/leeward races taking place off the port of Dunkerque. Frank Cammas and Groupama came out with guns blazing to score a very impressive 1,1,2 to lead the standings at the end of the first day. Thomas Coville and Sodebo are second overall, followed by Oman Sailing in third.

Another day of in-port racing and then the fleet heads out for the first offshore leg to Breskens.

Still wish there was better coverage, but it does appear they have plenty of onboard cameras so maybe there will be some good compilation footage afterwards. Really like the M34s, particularly off the wind. Such a huge improvement over the Mumm / Farr 30's of days gone by.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Tour de France a la Voile - 2*

Here is a terrific video introduction to the Tour de France a la Voile (in English, no less)!






The fleet concludes the in-port races today and sets sail for Beskens, The Netherlands, in the late afternoon / early evening. Conditions promise to be a bit brisk.

Meanwhile, at that other Tour de France, kind of a whacky start to the 100th edition, down in Corsica. Team bus got stuck under the finishing banner and didn't get unstuck until moments before the leaders arrived, following 3 crashes that, fortunately, didn't take out any of the big stars. After all the confusion and misadventure, the organizers wisely decided to award all riders the same time, and awarded le maillot jaune to Marcel Kittel, who won the made sprint to the line. Hopefull today's leg will be a bit less "exciting" in the wrong ways.

I'm pulling for Alejandro Valverde, but he's not favored. More likely to see a battle between Contador, Froome and Evans, with a couple others poised to take advantage should conditions arise. Always exciting.


----------



## MrPelicano

*J 88 Launched*

It's here! The brand new J 88 Hull #1 is officially launched and in the water. 










We'll have to wait a bit for reviews and video footage, but sitting in the water the boat looks good - very similar to the J/70 and J/111 in general appearance. Can't wait to see one in person.


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## robelz

Looks... Boring...

I don't like these boats that aren't really fast but optimized to be fast to their rating.


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## PCP

*Comet 41s*

I have been told that my boat is strong but without prove I abstained myself about commenting on that. Well, today I had the prove that I would preferred not to have: I was rammed full speed astern at almost the middle of the boat by a 50 ton wooden motorboat .

That was frightening, the motorboat had a malfunction on the commands and just keep coming astern till hit my anchored boat. These professionals with big motorboats like to show off using big power to turn the boat around and the result was full speed astern. the boat should be doing more than 6K when it hit my poor boat.

To aggravate the situation the impact was not with the motorboat hull but with the steel structure of the swinging platform (much more narrow). The result was just some deep scratch on the gelcoat and I would not be surprised if some delamination would have happened (even if not visible) since all impact was on the cored hull zone and very localized.

The impact was just huge and the British skipper of the near by old Camper and Nicholson could not believe the boat was not holed.

The interior wood work is all good. I have to take it apart to see if the fiberglass is okay. Never saw anything like this and it had just to happen to me.

Now, that is bad luck

By the way, it happened on the Vulcano Island near Messina straight.


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## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> Looks... Boring...
> 
> I don't like these boats that aren't really fast but optimized to be fast to their rating.


So, does that mean you only like foiling multihulls?


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## MrPelicano

Paulo -

Wow! Really sorry to hear about your misfortune. But very glad there doesn't appear to be any serious damage. This is the last thing anyone wants to experience on a cruising vacation. Keep us posted and I trust you acquired the insurance information from the motoryacht skipper.


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## MrPelicano

*Solaris One 37 from Serigi Yachts*

Now that Paulo has got me hip to Italian yachts, I've been on the lookout for them. As I was glancing at the list of competitors in Class A at the recent ORCi 2013 Championships, I came across the Solaris 36 OD, which lead me to the Serigi Yachts web site.

There, I discovered the gorgeous One 37, designed by famous Argentinian NA Javier Soto Acebal (Soto 40, Soto 30). At first, I couldn't believe it was an 11.2M yacht, since it looks closer to a 12-12.2M. The boat looks fast and elegant at the same time, and the quality of fit/finish extraordinary. No doubt this is a very expensive boat and it shows, both on the exterior and interior.

Here are two excellent videos, showing the boat under sail and at the boat show.


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## PCP

*Re: Solaris One 37 from Serigi Yachts*



MrPelicano said:


> Now that Paulo has got me hip to Italian yachts, I've been on the lookout for them. As I was glancing at the list of competitors in Class A at the recent ORCi 2013 Championships, I came across the Solaris 36 OD, which lead me to the Serigi Yachts web site.
> 
> There, I discovered the gorgeous One 37, designed by famous Argentinian NA Javier Soto Acebal (Soto 40, Soto 30). At first, I couldn't believe it was an 11.2M yacht, since it looks closer to a 12-12.2M. The boat looks fast and elegant at the same time, and the quality of fit/finish extraordinary. No doubt this is a very expensive boat and it shows, both on the exterior and interior.
> 
> Here are two excellent videos, showing the boat under sail and at the boat show.
> 
> Solaris One 37 - YouTube
> 
> Solaris 37 by eyachts new yachts for sale - YouTube


I have posted about it about one year ago when you were not around. The thread has a search motor (not the one from the site) try it and you will find plenty information and even a comparison with the Salona 38 that shares some of the characteristics even if not such a luxurious interior. Well, it is probably faster, I mean the Salona, and much less expensive and that counts too in my book. The Solaris 37 is a great boat, I would prefer it over for instance a HR 372.

About the boats competing on the ORCI world championship, there are at least one that I had not posted about. For you to find out. It is a very interesting one but much more of a race boat than the Solaris, even if it has also a cruising potential and a relatively good interior.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Since I am stuck at the Vulcano Island till the accident and the insurance is sorted out, at least I have an internet café and as I have the need to go there for emails, I will post a beautiful boat for you guys to sort it out (Island of Ponza). It is Italian, no doubt and has a carbon bimini. How cool is that!!!





Regarding the Vulcano Island, the place where Mr Spot seems to have born, I could be stuck in a worst place


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## arr4ws

*Re: J 88 Launched*



MrPelicano said:


> It's here! The brand new J 88 Hull #1 is officially launched and in the water.
> 
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> We'll have to wait a bit for reviews and video footage, but sitting in the water the boat looks good - very similar to the J/70 and J/111 in general appearance. Can't wait to see one in person.


I used your pictures on sailinganarchy j/88 thread. I have one on order and im going to test sail the 88 on july 15 ! will report!


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## EricKLYC

*Re: Comet 41s*



PCP said:


> I was rammed full speed astern at almost the middle of the boat by a 50 ton wooden motorboat .
> ...
> To aggravate the situation the impact was not with the motorboat hull but with the steel structure of the swinging platform (much more narrow).
> ...
> The impact was just huge and the British skipper of the near by old Camper and Nicholson could not believe the boat was not holed.


This must have been a horrible experience, Paulo!

But if nobody was hurt and your further investigations confirm there is no structural damage, I certainly hope you will soon be able to pursue your route without further delay.

And enjoy it fully, so this will only remain as a bad but fading memory.

Best regards,

Eric


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## EricKLYC

robelz said:


> Looks... Boring...
> 
> I don't like these boats that aren't really fast but optimized to be fast to their rating.


If you want to race, you certainly must look for the best performance/rating ratio. 
But if you just like to sail fast outside of the racing context, you don't have to bother about this kind of compromises.

So I 'd also like a J if I were a pure racer, but I also think there are better designs for those who just only want to be fast.

Multihulls of course, unbeatable if you can live with the inevitably very restricted interior. Otherwise there are nowadays plenty of sufficiently comfortable monohull designs that also allow you to easily overtake most racers on the water. In a (fast) cruising point of view, without any formal racing and rating concerns.

So it's once again all about priorities, but as a (performance) cruiser: I fully agree, Robelz!

Best regards,

Eric


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## EricKLYC

MrPelicano said:


> So, does that mean you only like foiling multihulls?


A foiling multihull with a rating ?

Best regards,

Eric


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## Polluce

Dear paulo,

I've been reading this wonderful thread for so long, coz i love sea and boats even if i've nearly never been on one lol Hopefully I think i'll start a sailing school very soon 

I'm really sorry about your accident in Vulcano. Meanwhile if you haven't ever visited Scilla at the north entering of the Messina Straight on the Calabrian side, well don't miss the chance 
That's the place where i spend my holidays lol

I can't post link or images yet so just google images for "Scilla"

And possibly i'd suggest you to try "paccheri with swordfish and aubergines" in one of the pile-dwelling restaurants (directly accessible by sea) at "Chianalea" wich is the historical fishermen district where houses are built really on the sea (kind of Venice)

google images for "Scilla Chianalea risotoranti"

Hope u'll like it


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## PCP

Polluce said:


> Dear paulo,
> 
> I've been reading this wonderful thread for so long, coz i love sea and boats even if i've nearly never been on one lol Learbe d a lot of things and think i'll start a sailing school very soon
> 
> I'm really sorry about your accident in Vulcano. Meanwhile if you haven't ever visited Scilla at the north entering of the Messina Straight on the Calabrian side, well don't miss the chance
> That's the place where i spend my holidays lol
> 
> I can't post link or images yet so just google images for "Scilla"
> 
> And possibly i'd suggest you to try "paccheri with swordfish and aubergines" in one of the pile-dwelling restaurants (directly accessible by sea) at "Chianalea" wich is the historical fishermen district where houses are built really on the sea (kind of Venice)
> 
> google images for "Scilla Chianalea risotoranti"
> 
> Hope u'll like it


Thanks Polluce. Can you tell me if that is a good place to stay on anchor, the type of bottom (sand?) and the dept of anchorage? And if you know wind protection from what sides?

I may very well take your tip since I am crossing the straight going south.

Regards

Paulo


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## MrPelicano

*Tour de France a la Voile - 3*

My apologies for bringing this up, but the Tour de France a la Voile really is a terrific event for those who like both ocean and round-the-can racing. And once I figured out that Facebook is where the action is for this event, I am getting my daily dose of photos, videos, commentary and news.

Anyway, I guess it is not surprising that Frank Cammas and Groupama are dominating the offshore legs, with two consecutive victories (though leg one was very, very close against Oman Sailing - only decided in the final approach to Breskens). But I am a bit surprised that Groupama is so strong in the in-port racing - indeed, they have been on the podium for every race I think (or nearly, need to check again).

By contrast, Thomas Coville, who is a masterful offshore racer, and his Sodebo team have reallys struggled, particularly in-shore. Admittedly, they had an unfortunate collision at the start of the Breskens leg, breaking their bow sprit, and finished last, subject to redress. Waiting to see where they finished on the Breskens-Dieppe leg, which just concluded.

Anyway, really encourage everyone to go check it out. The videos are too short but excellent photography, and if you go to the Groupama Facebook page you can get even more great info. I think Frank Cammas is my new hero of the moment.


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## bljones

Ouch, Paulo.
Hang in there.


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## Polluce

PCP said:


> Thanks Polluce. Can you tell me if that is a good place to stay on anchor, the type of bottom (sand?) and the dept of anchorage? And if you know wind protection from what sides?
> 
> I may very well take your tip since I am crossing the straight going south.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Sure m8 
I'm not that expert, but there's a little harbour behind the huge rock with the castle. That's the "chianalea", the quaintest part of the city, where usually sail boats stay on anchor, hope you can find a space there. Anyway I just had a quick check and found that you can find all the info you need on scillaonline.net. Just look for "Porto di Scilla" on the left of the page, under "Vacanze".

I'm so sorry but i'm not able to post links yet 
Hope this helps


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## tdw

Hold fast Paulo. That old friend is a right royal downer though I do hope you are back on the road faster that us. Five months and counting.


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## MrPelicano

A NM 38s (Scugnizza) just won the ORCi 2013 Championships (Class B) for the second year in a row. No doubt well-sailed but designer apparently hit all the right targets under ORCi. Agree that it's a beautiful boat, as well. And I love the stark, impersonal, Italian interiors (don't like the faux wood version, though).














PCP said:


> Thanks.
> 
> New boat and nothing less than the actual Italian champion:
> 
> http://www.campionatoitalianoaltura2011.it/sites/default/files/06quotidianotriestewev.pdf
> 
> Another 38ft performance cruiser, an Italian one and as most of the Italian sailboats, a beauty: the NM 38.
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> 
> NM 38 news Salone di Genova.wmv - YouTube
> 
> Nautilus Marine NM 38 prova in mare by www.blumag.it - YouTube
> 
> They say about the boat:
> 
> *The hull and deck are constructed under a vacuum, using female moulds and are made in PVC "sandwich" style with unidirectional and biaxial fibers glass and laminated with epoxy resin (with a lifetime guarantee against osmosis).
> 
> The carbon fibers used to reinforce the hull bottom gives a greater structural rigidity. Hull and deck are subjected to a post-treatment cycle for maximum performance of mechanical rigidity.
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> The structure grid is made of carbon and support the loads of the keel, mast and chain-plates, making the entire craft highly secure, even in extreme conditions.
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> Bulkheads are of marine plywood which are attached to the hull and fixed on the deck. The anti-collision bulkheads forward and aft are made with the same techniques like the hull and deck, so the stern and the bow of the boat are lighter and passing the wave is more comfortable.*
> 
> It seems great. It is a pity that this boat has a relatively low D/B ratio, 0.309 for a 1.95m draft. A crew seated on the side would not be indispensable but I bet this boat will reef rely soon without it and will have its performance noticeably handicapped. That and an interior a bit impersonal seem to me the only drawbacks for a boat that don't seem very expensive for its quality: 168 000€ without taxes.
> 
> About more 38 500€ more than the salona 38, but for having a boat with similar specs (vacuum infused and epoxy resins) the difference would be only 18 300€. However the Salona interiors seems a lot better to me.
> 
> *Technical specifications
> EC Certification: cat. A
> Width overall: 11.40 mt
> Length water line: 10.15 mt
> Full beam: 3.58 mt
> Draught: 1.97 / 2.30 mt
> Displacement: 5.500 Kg
> Ballast: 1.700 Kg
> Berths: 2 / 3
> Sail Area: 78 mq
> Mainsail: 44 mq
> Jib 105%: 34.5 mq
> Spinnaker area (ORC): 100 mq*
> 
> ....


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## PCP

*Nm 38*

A beauty isn't











For what I can tell in what regards Ocean racing there is little difference in the ORCI and IRC rating. It is a shame that the intention to make a only handicap rule (that was announced) seems to be going a hard way.

Here an interesting comparison between IRC and ORC, even if the ORC was updated since then:

Sail-World.com : Rolex Sydney Hobart - ORCi in its second year

sail-world.com -- Rolex Sydney Hobart 2011 ORCi versus IRC as handicap rule


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## PCP

*Stuck on Vulcano*

Thanks to all that showed concern for my situation. Not only I was hit violently by a big motorboat as the guy tried to escape from declaring it to the insurance.

It took me several days of hard ball with the Guardia Costeira and the menace to open an official inquest (that here is only made on an accident if one or both parts demand it) to have his insurance papers. They did not have contacted their insurance neither they have declared the accident to the Guardia Costera. Maybe the fact that it is a Palermo boat had something to do with that

Andrews, I am very sorry to know that all the problems with your boat are not sorted out yet....bad luck when it strikes, sometimes strike several times

Best regards to all.

Paulo


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Nm 38*



PCP said:


> A beauty isn't
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> 
> For what I can tell in what regards Ocean racing there is little difference in the ORCI and IRC rating. It is a shame that the intention to make a only handicap rule (that was announced) seems to be going a hard way.
> 
> Here an interesting comparison between IRC and ORC, even if the ORC was updated since then:
> 
> Sail-World.com : Rolex Sydney Hobart - ORCi in its second year
> 
> sail-world.com -- Rolex Sydney Hobart 2011 ORCi versus IRC as handicap rule


Some pretty ugly boathandling, that's for sure. In the second video you'd think those guys were sailing a J/24 bumper boat. Didn't care for the wood in the interior shots of the first video, except for the cabin sole. And the hull color is pretty lame, as well. Much prefer the copper look of the hull on the NM web site.

Not sure I agree with you about ORCi type-forming, if I understand your concerns correctly. Class A was dominated by the TP52s, which are very competitive boats under IRC after the class loosened the box rule to make the boats more versatile. And I don't know anyone who doesn't love TP52s, myself included.

However, if you think ORCi hurts boats that are more performance cruiser oriented, then obviously I agree it would be a bad thing if that is, in fact the case. We know that IRC has generated some outstanding performance cruisers - we have mentioned Mark Mills in the past, and, of course, Jason Ker, both of whose boats differ in many design respects, with Ker's being a bit more extreme than Mills'. And our friends at Farr have done fine under IRC with the new First designs, as have our friends at J/Boats. However, didn't see many Farr or J/Boat models at the ORCi Championships, except for the Farr 40 ODs (which are pure race boats).

But let me go and re-read the rules comparison, so I make sure I don't misunderstand you.

Hope you're back in full cruise mode very soon.

MrP


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## Gustafson78

The tested Pogo 40 and the Pogo 12.50, which is the new cruising version, are quite different. No more runners and not even a backstay but only very aft speaders, no more ballast tanks but only a distinctive chine in the hull. And very different deck and interior lay-outs, that have been redesigned for cruising purposes.


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## Renato

*Re: Comet 41s*

Hi Paulo, 
After reading the whole thread following your "saga" for a new boat and being curious about which one you would end up with, hearing that you got hit while moored was hard, man! I really hope that you get back to your trip soon and not much affected by this mishappening.

But in the meanwhile I'd like to thank you and all other posters for the boat encyclopedia you build up in this thread, besides having my eyes burning trying to recap it from the beginning (2010!!) I learned a lot about boats I haven't ever heard of.

Right now I am in France trying to visit and have a hands on test in as many boats as I can get because in Brazil this would be very, very difficult.

My plan is to have a life aboard and sail following the trades around the globe (or parts of it) for 3 years. It would be my wife and I plus, eventually, a guest couple during short stays. For this I made a start list and would like to have the forum's input and maybe some brokers/shipyards contacts. I'll be located in Marseille till July, 30.

We are looking for boats around 40' or 12m and the following models:
*outremer 42/45
catana 42/45
RM 10.60/12.00
dufor 40E/405
cigale 14
*

What you think? Would anybody have have dealers/brokers/shipyards contacts in South of France that could share or recommend?

Renato


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## PCP

*Long range Cruising sailboat*



Renato said:


> .....
> 
> Right now I am in France trying to visit and have a hands on test in as many boats as I can get because in Brazil this would be very, very difficult.
> 
> My plan is to have a life aboard and sail following the trades around the globe (or parts of it) for 3 years. It would be my wife and I plus, eventually, a guest couple during short stays. For this I made a start list and would like to have the forum's input and maybe some brokers/shipyards contacts. I'll be located in Marseille till July, 30.
> 
> We are looking for boats around 40' or 12m and the following models:
> *outremer 42/45
> catana 42/45
> RM 10.60/12.00
> dufor 40E/405
> cigale 14
> *
> 
> What you think? Would anybody have have dealers/brokers/shipyards contacts in South of France that could share or recommend?
> 
> Renato


For that and assuming you have the money for the others that are more expensive I would skip the Dufour and I would join to that list the Boreal 44 and the Allures 45 and 39.

The Cigale 14 is a great boat but I think they are going to substitute it soon by a new model as they have with the rest of the range.

Try to see if Hannah (Steve) did not yet sail out of France in his new Boreal 44. That is a first that you can test to see if it fits you.

That is very interesting your choice of boat and it will just fit in the purpose of this thread so please keep us posted about it.

Basically you have to decide if you want a Catamaran or a monohull. Catamarans are generally more expensive and a big one demands previous experience with cats in my opinion. Between monohulls you have to decide if you want a center-boarder or a full keel boat. I love the Cigale, old model and all, but the 16 is just better looking.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

Gustafson78 said:


> The tested Pogo 40 and the Pogo 12.50, which is the new cruising version, are quite different. No more runners and not even a backstay but only very aft speaders, no more ballast tanks but only a distinctive chine in the hull. And very different deck and interior lay-outs, that have been redesigned for cruising purposes.


Are you talking about this movie and test sail?






If so that boat was not a racing Pogo 40 but the prototype that give the Pogo 12.50. As you can see the boat has not backstay and not water ballast tanks either.

In fact the Pogo 12.50 is a 40ft and share the hull with the racing boat. The mast is smaller, and the rigging is different as you say.

This is a test with the cruising boat, the Pogo 12.50, that was later elected boat of the year:






Regards

Paulo


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## Renato

*Modern Cruising sailboat*



PCP said:


> For that and assuming you have the money for the others that are more expensive I would skip the Dufour and I would join to that list the Boreal 44 and the Allures 45 and 39.
> 
> The Cigale 14 is a great boat but I think they are going to substitute it soon by a new model as they have with the rest of the range.
> 
> Try to see if Hannah (Steve) did not yet sail out of France in his new Boreal 44. That is a first that you can test to see if it fits you.
> 
> That is very interesting your choice of boat and it will just fit in the purpose of this thread so please keep us posted about it.
> 
> Basically you have to decide if you want a Catamaran or a monohull. Catamarans are generally more expensive and a big one demands previous experience with cats in my opinion. Between monohulls you have to decide if you want a center-boarder or a full keel boat. I love the Cigale, old model and all, but the 16 is just better looking.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Thanks for the inputs Paulo. I'll keep posting my findings here even though I still have a lot to learn about boat construction and design for them to be of common interest I guess. If you think my postings are getting too personal for the purpose of this thread I'd consider moving them for a more appropriate one.

Regarding my experience, I've chartered cats twice in the caribbean (horseman/leopard) around 40'. It was great for the vacation purpose, lots of space and payload capacity but very bad experience sailing wise. If money wasn't an issue I definitely would go with a outremer, for me, just the perfect balance between living area space, amenities(few) and sailing ability (said to be great). We visited both shipyards, outremer and catana, and the later impressed for the build quality and interior finish but the boat we visited, a 42 with 4 cabins you'd have to squeeze to go down from the salon to the cabins because of the placement of the heads. Shouldn't have 4 cabins on 42/45's !. The outremer 45 was an owners version setup and had one big head placed in front of the hull and another in the middle of the other hull, no problems moving around even though the salon area seems smaller than the catana's. The owner head is very spacious.

We don't have the money to afford a new boat, we're targeting a 10 years old one and since we started looking around we've been raising the bar continuously. As we don't have plans to keep the boat after our 3 years trip we are tempted to increase our initial budget in other to get it back easier later on, let see if this holds true at the end...

Leaving the cats arena, yesterday we briefly visited a RM 10.60, a X38, a pogo and a dufour 36E. We fell in love for the RM !! The setup is super!! Clean and light interior. We asked for a test and the guy offered a skippered day sail for 500 euros, we are considering because there would be very few, if none, other opportunities for us to test sail a RM after we return back home in Brazil but, well, it's expensive isn't it?

I'll check your new suggestions (Boreal 44 and the Allures 45 and 39) to see if I can find them around here to visit and still, if anybody have dealers/brokers/shipyards contacts in South of France that could share or recommend my list is wide open and growing!

Regards,
Renato


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## PCP

*Rm 1360*



Renato said:


> ....
> 
> We don't have the money to afford a new boat, we're targeting a 10 years old one and since we started looking around we've been raising the bar continuously. As we don't have plans to keep the boat after our 3 years trip we are tempted to increase our initial budget in other to get it back easier later on, let see if this holds true at the end...
> 
> Leaving the cats arena, yesterday we briefly visited a RM 10.60, a X38, a pogo and a dufour 36E. We fell in love for the RM !! The setup is super!! Clean and light interior. We asked for a test and the guy offered a skippered day sail for 500 euros, we are considering because there would be very few, if none, other opportunities for us to test sail a RM after we return back home in Brazil but, well, it's expensive isn't it?
> 
> I'll check your new suggestions (Boreal 44 and the Allures 45 and 39) to see if I can find them around here to visit and still, if anybody have dealers/brokers/shipyards contacts in South of France that could share or recommend my list is wide open and growing!
> 
> Regards,
> Renato


The problem is that you should not have doing what you are doing on the South of France but in de La Rochelle region that is where the boat builders including RM are. I test sailed there a RM 1200 for free and their public relations is a very nice guy.

So for a boat with 10 years I guess you should be looking for a RM 1200, an Allures 44 or an OVNI 435. The Cigale is also an option but they are pretty rare in the used market. Have a look at what you can find in the used market. All these boats will devalue slowly so you should not lose a lot of money for 3 years of use.

By the way, they presented the new 1360:






Blog RM Yachts | Chantier Fora Marine - Permettre de mieux connaitre les voiliers RM et d'échanger vos idées et vos expériences nautiques.

Best regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Classical beauty*






Superyacht Cup 2013 from Anchovy | Luxury on Vimeo.


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## PCP

*Circumnavigating at 70.*

And Jeanne makes it home on her third try. Super Grandma I would say

Congratulations to her.


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## PCP

*Class 40 : Les Sables-Horta-Les Sables*

Germans give fight to the best French sailors. Short crew (2) ocean racing on 40class racers:










Le premier à Horta c'est??? _di overlapprod_

Les Sables - Horta - Les Sables


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## blt2ski

Here you go!
new 64' boat announced......no info as to what how where etc...........

"Exciting news just in for those who find the Jeanneau Yacht 57 a bit too small. A Jeanneau Yacht 64 should be available in 2014.

This will be the largest monohull sailing yacht that Jeanneau have produced, but coincidently comes 20 years after a prototype Bruce Farr designed Sun 63 that did not regrettably make it into series production."

Oh, no need to hit the link eh!

Marty


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## ImASonOfaSailor

I dont understand Monohull thinking, Monohulls are very nice to look at traditional sailing, slow sailing contained to a cockpit or the lifeline! Once it starts healing Yeahh your having fun going slow Sideways healed over with a trick to get inside if you need a drink!

A catamaran is not hard to sail at all i dont know why people say this! I use to sail monos now i am a catamaran lover! I can get places quicker, i do not need whitecaps to have a fast sail! When the winds pick up i can go faster and safe and drink and eat in 25 plus winds! you can always find a used boat yes buying new is alot of dollar but if you have it i would buy a Catana






The Outremer is another awesome boat i prefer Dagger boards the boat points better and you can pull them up!


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## opc11

*Re: Comet 41s*



PCP said:


> I have been told that my boat is strong but without prove I abstained myself about commenting on that. Well, today I had the prove that I would preferred not to have: I was rammed full speed astern at almost the middle of the boat by a 50 ton wooden motorboat .
> 
> That was frightening, the motorboat had a malfunction on the commands and just keep coming astern till hit my anchored boat. These professionals with big motorboats like to show off using big power to turn the boat around and the result was full speed astern. the boat should be doing more than 6K when it hit my poor boat.
> 
> To aggravate the situation the impact was not with the motorboat hull but with the steel structure of the swinging platform (much more narrow). The result was just some deep scratch on the gelcoat and I would not be surprised if some delamination would have happened (even if not visible) since all impact was on the cored hull zone and very localized.
> 
> The impact was just huge and the British skipper of the near by old Camper and Nicholson could not believe the boat was not holed.
> 
> The interior wood work is all good. I have to take it apart to see if the fiberglass is okay. Never saw anything like this and it had just to happen to me.
> 
> Now, that is bad luck
> 
> By the way, it happened on the Vulcano Island near Messina straight.


Paulo,

Very sorry to hear about your misfortune. ....but quite glad to hear you stayed afloat!

I wish your Comet a quick recovery.

Regards,
paul


----------



## opc11

ImASonOfaSailor said:


> I dont understand Monohull thinking, Monohulls are very nice to look at traditional sailing, slow sailing contained to a cockpit or the lifeline! Once it starts healing Yeahh your having fun going slow Sideways healed over with a trick to get inside if you need a drink!
> 
> A catamaran is not hard to sail at all i dont know why people say this! I use to sail monos now i am a catamaran lover! I can get places quicker, i do not need whitecaps to have a fast sail! When the winds pick up i can go faster and safe and drink and eat in 25 plus winds! you can always find a used boat yes buying new is alot of dollar but if you have it i would buy a Catana
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Outremer is another awesome boat i prefer Dagger boards the boat points better and you can pull them up!


sounds like you need a better cup holder for monohull sailing.


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo, Had not read about the rear end hit of your boat. I was with some folks a week or so ago with a Jeanneau 44DS, the day after our club left a cruise weekend, some went for a week up in the San Juans. This boat was hit, also in the transom by a 50' MV that going full astern or something of that nature. Apparently some pretty good damage to the transom. They are trying to figure out of the boat is safe to bring back to the US from Canada to get repaired, or if it will be a wreck! Not something I enjoyed hearing the other day. As this couple has only had the boat since march or so. It is a brand new 2013!

Marty


----------



## Renato

Hello ImASonOfaSailor,



ImASonOfaSailor said:


> I dont understand Monohull thinking, Monohulls are very nice to look at traditional sailing, slow sailing contained to a cockpit or the lifeline! Once it starts healing Yeahh your having fun going slow Sideways healed over with a trick to get inside if you need a drink!


During long journeys in monohulls I found that after a while I was tired of


getting in and out of a steep and deep companionway


going around the boat to attend cable jams or reef sails


fix things in the galley while underway

I'd try to avoid this "design features" in my chosen boat



> A catamaran is not hard to sail at all i dont know why people say this! I use to sail monos now i am a catamaran lover! I can get places quicker, i do not need whitecaps to have a fast sail! When the winds pick up i can go faster and safe and drink and eat in 25 plus winds! you can always find a used boat yes buying new is alot of dollar but if you have it i would buy a Catana


[disclaimer]I am yet to face rough weather aboard a large catamaran[/disclaimer] 
As far as I've seem I cannot agree more, they are not difficult to sail. You'll loose some helm feedback and will have to adapt yourself to this side effect.



> The Outremer is another awesome boat i prefer Dagger boards the boat points better and you can pull them up!


The outremer also has daggerboards, but I think that they've changed a little bit the original concept (Gerard Danson's design). The 5X, showed in the video you posted, features a lot of "extras" and I just think that electricity and salt water doesn't go along very well. I'd try to keep them to a minimum for a cruiser boat. But *€220+* for a 10 years old 45' with such a spartan interior is a LOT of money IMHO. Anyway I'll keep them in sight should an opportunity arises.

Thanks for sharing your opinion
Renato


----------



## PCP

*Re: Comet 41s*



opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Very sorry to hear about your misfortune. ....but quite glad to hear you stayed afloat!
> 
> I wish your Comet a quick recovery.
> 
> Regards,
> paul


Hi Paul,

It seems that it was more my ego, the boat has just some scratches and I sail on...still looking for restitution

After that I sailed on and got a force 7, pulling the dinghy and all and the boat is just fine.

Thanks for your concern,

Have nice winds,

Paulo


----------



## outbound

Good for you. An true endorsement of your vessel.


----------



## blt2ski

http://www.sea-ventures.co.uk/images/boats/gallery/1272013-16429.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1016691_489635411129830_442451472_n.jpg

two photos of the jeanneau 64 which is to be a Briand design.

Marty


----------



## Kubota

Looks like Bordeaux 60...


Noone noticed new Hanse 505?


----------



## PCP

*Italy*

Some news about Italy:

First, their Weather report, continuously on channel 68 is a joke. Till now they did not get one right and i am sailing here for more than 15 days. Today they forecast Nw 4. It was Se 3. That has been like that all the time.

Another news, at least for me, Italians don't cruise, just stay in the marinas. Yesterday in Siracusa, lovely town and great anchorage, there were 14 boats and I was the only "Italian", at least in what regards the flag.

and the marinas are not cheap. In Marina del'Etna they wanted me to pay 115 euros for a night(I needed water and fuel) only when I said I was going to sail away they let me stay for free on the fuel ponnton that was where i was in the first place, because the marina was full


----------



## blt2ski

Kubota said:


> Looks like Bordeaux 60.........


Quote from the headmaster at the jeanneau owners forum in the thread regarding the JY64..........

"Just confirmed is that the first all new Philippe Briand designed Jeanneau Yacht 64 will be produced by April 2014 with sea trials during the summer. The image of the model gives some design clues, but emphasis will be on creating a versatile mini super yacht at a highly competitive price. A vast cockpit area, no less than 40% of overall deck space, will look after the guests, plus there will be spacious dedicated skipper and crew quarters, which no doubt will result in many JY64 going into the luxury charter market. Philippe Briand has a long and successful association with Jeanneau and Groupe Beneteau and this design will neatly fit into his elegant designs for the sister yachts - CNB 76, Bordeaux 60 and Jeanneau Yacht 57. More at: Cnb 76 : Production : Yachts : Philippe Briand : Yacht Design

So yes, it does look like the Bordeaux 60, and takes some of the design ques from it!

Marty


----------



## JomsViking

On the Water summer 2014: Forside

In Danish, but have a look at the Pictures (Billeder) or use a translator

Pi14 - ny moderne båd i kulfiber bygges i København - YouTube


----------



## bobperry

Very interesting. By the time I was done watching the video I think I was understanding Danish.


----------



## JomsViking

bobperry said:


> Very interesting. By the time I was done watching the video I think I was understanding Danish.


Tillykke! 

Here's a Picture of the 14x3.3 m hull weighing in at about 500 Kg


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> Hi Axel,
> Yes, the general opinion is that the Alizé Opium had good quality but that Wauquiez Opium has a better quality (hull and interior). The Wauquiez interior is nicer and better, the keel position (or the bulb?) was slightly modified by the boat designer (a bit aft if I remember correctly) and the new Opium has a nice integrated bowsprit.
> 
> Maybe Anders can say more about it
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi everybody,
Have not followed this thread now for several hundred pages so time to catch up from the cockpit of the opium. Regarding build quality difference between Alizee and Wauquiez I can not tell, but my experience of the Wauquiez is good. It had had these minor things that all new boats have but besides that we are very happy with the boat. Currently in Aarhus in Denmark enyoing a fantastic summer.

Only drawback here is the width of the boat compered with box sizes in danish harbors. During a summer like this no problem, we are at anchor all the time but extended sailing season with smaller family in the future might motivate a switch to something smaller.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## bobperry

Perhaps you missed it on the other forum:
My 63' FRANCIS LEE, the "sliver" project was moved from the shed yesterday to the yard where it will be finished. Beam is 9.81 feet. My client has previously owned a Swede 55 and a 30 square meter. He likes narow boats. The hull is red cedar strip planking and the deck is composite glass and foam. The entire interior is CNC cut and foam cored It was built intact out of the boat and then dropped into the shell in one pice. The fit was perfect. Draft is 10 fet with a welded steel fin and a lead bulb. Total displacement will be 19,000 lbs. At this point in time we are spot on with our weights. Launch should be in two months.


----------



## PCP

JomsViking said:


> On the Water summer 2014: Forside
> 
> In Danish, but have a look at the Pictures (Billeder) or use a translator
> 
> Pi14 - ny moderne båd i kulfiber bygges i København - YouTube


Looks nice and interesting.

Keep us posted about it please.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Hi Guys,

Finaly in Greece, Gaios,a beautiful place and before in Corfu, on the deserted west shore, Liapades. Both highly recommended, specially the first one: Beautiful and the only boat in the anchorage.

Nice passage from Italy doing almost always over 8k, many times over 9...a bit too much for my wife...not the speed but the sea condition

Lots of nice boats around. Lots of beautiful Comets in Italy, specially big ones (mine is a small one). Look at this 52 and tell me if she isn't a beauty


----------



## PCP

*Scilla*



Polluce said:


> Dear paulo,
> 
> I've been reading this wonderful thread for so long, coz i love sea and boats even if i've nearly never been on one lol Hopefully I think i'll start a sailing school very soon
> 
> I'm really sorry about your accident in Vulcano. Meanwhile if you haven't ever visited Scilla at the north entering of the Messina Straight on the Calabrian side, well don't miss the chance
> That's the place where i spend my holidays lol
> 
> I can't post link or images yet so just google images for "Scilla"
> 
> And possibly i'd suggest you to try "paccheri with swordfish and aubergines" in one of the pile-dwelling restaurants (directly accessible by sea) at "Chianalea" wich is the historical fishermen district where houses are built really on the sea (kind of Venice)
> 
> google images for "Scilla Chianalea risotoranti"
> 
> Hope u'll like it


Thanks for the tip. He liked Scilla, nice and not very expensive. The Anchorage has good holding but it is a bit uncomfortable (not a problem for us). On the other side it is rock and you have to pay for a buoy. I prefer to "eat" the buoy, I mean with the money

Did not have dinner there (bit rough the sea) but had a wonderful breakfast and nice shopping on the only market downtown (nice girl).

Some photos:







Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Boreal 44*

Steve's new boat, Louise is on the water. Congratulations to him and his wife

Let's wait for some comments about the sea trials and how the boat compare with the old Mason in what regards sailing.


----------



## PCP

*Capado, the French Fox 10.20 is on US.*

Let´s see the US by the eyes of some French cruisers. For the ones that are not much around Capado is a fast Fox 10.20 that is circumnavigating with a couple.


----------



## PCP

*ORCi world championship 2013*

Some great movies:


----------



## PCP

*Rating systems*

and a very interesting interview to a major yacht designer in what regards yacht racing: Ker


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Capado, the French Fox 10.20 is on US.*



PCP said:


> Let´s see the US by the eyes of some French cruisers. For the ones that are not much around Capado is a fast Fox 10.20 that is circumnavigating with a couple.


I saw Capado out sailing in Newport Harbor 2-3 weeks ago, when I was racing my Laser at the Sail Newport Regatta. The Class 40 Gryphon Solo (Akilaria 2) was also out sailing that weekend. Lots of interesting boats to see in Newport.

Glad to have you posting again, Paulo!

Mr. P


----------



## PCP

*Tour de France - Cammas*



MrPelicano said:


> I saw Capado out sailing in Newport Harbor 2-3 weeks ago, when I was racing my Laser at the Sail Newport Regatta. The Class 40 Gryphon Solo (Akilaria 2) was also out sailing that weekend. Lots of interesting boats to see in Newport.
> 
> Glad to have you posting again, Paulo!
> 
> Mr. P


I have free internet from the Café in front of the boat. I am at the quay in Preveza while my wife does the loundry. Nice place for provisions, water and diesel. The place only costs 12 euros and that includes water.

I remember you have talked here about the Tour de France (sailing), the French classic for crewed racing (same boat to all - M34). It is not expensive so everybody can race with equal opportunities to won. A dangerous race for top sailors that risk to be beaten by young guns.

Not the case with Franck Cammas. He raced...and won. Probably more difficult to win here than on the last Volvo

The man is just incredible, from the Volvo to the absolute sailing record around the world (already beaten) to winning solo sailing on the Route du Rhum, this guy is a legend and contrary to other sailing legends he is relatively young, most of the time younger than his crew.

To become the better and more versatile sailor of all times (solo and crewed race, monohulls and multihulls) I guess he has only to race and win a Vendee Globe. Who knows if it is on his mind?











Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Cruisers*

I have said that it is difficult to find in Italy Italians cruising, I mean out of the Marinas and I have to come to Greece to find some but surprisingly I meet two times an American cruising boat, a fast boat with a couple. First time in Cape Palimuro. I had sailed all night with strong wind and some rain and looked for shelter in the morning at Cabo Palimuro. Two hours later the come for shelter too.

Nice boat (a MacGregor) and nice way to cruise:



Some days later we shared again the same anvhorage in Siracusa (Sicily).

Somebody knows these guys? Maybe I meet them again in Greece.


----------



## PCP

*Americas'cup*

Whats up with the American version of the America's cup:

"The San Francisco Chronicle called the 34th America's Cup in the "worst possible stack overflow, since the Titanic has begun its journey across the North Atlantic." The "New York Times" sees "the most precious trophy of sailing on a glorified melee" reduced and describes it as "a through seventh event of missteps and disasters." The New Zealand Herald brings the reasons for the large cup-crisis to the point. "This event suffers from participants shortage partly due to the budget (100 million U.S. dollars are needed to be competitive), due to the economic downturn and the borderline high-tech nature of the boats. ....

The "Business Week" was the headline: "How Larry Ellison's America's Cup in his own party sabotaged". The Cup organizer with CEO Russell Coutts at the top had the city fathers of San Francisco, among other things advised sales of around one billion euros and the creation of thousands of new jobs. A dream that has long since become the face of demanding back just three challengers, the tragic bereavement, ghost race, lack of television and disappointed their fans paying to see a nightmare. Last sponsor Louis Vuitton has reduced its investment to three million U.S. dollars, because too few challengers were the risk too expensive challenge or wanted.

The "Süddeutsche Zeitung" calls the action "farce of San Francisco", the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" mockiert over the "Sailing without enemies", and the "Neue Zürcher Zeitung" writes: "From farce to fiasco". The list shocked and disappointed to predominantly negative reporting goes on for many pages.

Yacht.de

Is that bad?

What's the American perspective and interest regarding the cup? Television coverage? Public interest?


----------



## PCP

*Aureus yachts*

The number of beautiful sailboats you can see on the med is incredible. Here rich men did not give up on sailing.Sailing gives status. We had already talked about Aureus yachts. Now that the first one is on the water, some more nice movies:











https://www.facebook.com/Aureus.Yachts

Fast cruising carbon sailing yacht Aureus XV - The Compact Maxi Yacht


----------



## PCP

*xtreme series*

From Porto, Portugal: beautiful images.


----------



## blt2ski

America's cuP?!?!?!?!?!?

is that still around? really? oh wow! Thought it was won last time or two or three in a court, so folks do really sail in boats for the trophy?!?!/!/! wowowow
There is a race in one of the GL's between the US and Canada using Farr 40's. A race that is a LOT more interesting. As is the race held every few yrs out of the NYYC with the Club Swan 42's! Those two are worth looking at frankly, AC is long gone for being worth looking at frankly!

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Americas's Cup*

Hi Marty,

I am sure that race you talk about is interesting (maybe you can post about it) but the America's cup is raced on the fastest and most innovative boats in the planet. The reason they have screw up has nothing to do with the boats or even the format but with bad management and costs control. I dare to say that also with the location.

I know S Francisco bay is one of the best spots for sailing but in what regards public interest the Americans are way off in what regards sailing. If those races were in Europe I am quite sure the interest for them would triplicate.

Look at the boats and the spectacle:






The sad story is that in any top world high level event, racing or any other, money and cost management versus profit has to be a prime if not the prime concern and that's where they missed completely. No money no show.

I would say: what a shame...for sailing sake they did not have the right to fu*k up.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

Hey Paulo -

I'm an American and I'm from San Francisco, which is, as you note, a superb place to sail. But it is also the case that there has never been any public interest in yacht racing in SF despite the long, rich history of events going back to the 1930's. I raced on the Bay for years and none of my non-sailing friends and acquaintences had any idea such things took place there, even when they could look out on the water and see hundreds of boats.

But, as I've argued before, Americans in general don't care about yacht racing for all sorts of reasons, most of which are good ones. Let me list a few:

1. It is remote from their daily life experience, unlike the sports they grow up with.

2. It is technical and difficult to understand for uninitiated viewers.

3. Unless the breeze is cranking - and sometimes even when it is - it's not very exciting to watch. Neither is chess and nobody watches that either... except chess players.

4. The public perception is that it's a rich man's game - and in the case of the Americas Cup, that's totally correct - and Americans prefer more populist sports. Ironically, sailing is perhaps the only sport where amateurs can compete against professionals and Olympians on a regular basis, and for not much money - e.g., Melges 24, J/70, Lasers, 505s, etc.

The problem with this iteration of the Cup is that Larry Ellison and Russell Coutts imagined they could do what nobody else has ever done - turn sailboat racing into a commercially viable spectator sport comparable to NASCAR or F1 or something. That there was no actual demand for such a thing - i.e., no market niche crying out to be filled - didn't seem to occur to men with egos bigger than the AC72s, zipping along on SF Bay to no effect.

By contrast, the Extreme 40 multihull series has been very successful in doing what it set out to do - provide exciting, low-cost, spectator-friendly racing on a global tour. With a bit more investment in media, the Extreme 40 series would be nearly perfect. I also expect the Vendée Globe to benefit from the increased media investment it will get in the next iterations.

So, when all is said and done, the best thing that could happen to the AC is for Team Emirates New Zealand to win it and take it away from the madness of Larry Ellison and like-minded capitalists, and return it to a focus on competitive international sailing.

Ciao!

MrP


----------



## blt2ski

THe race needed to be on the east coast where it was held for what 100 yrs or there abouts. Then get the thing out of the courts. 

Yes the two races I mentioned use "oolder" maybe not as high tech. BUT, from a pure sailing standpoint, both series of boats have boats designed the same etc, granted 1d racing, but the crews them selves win or lose the race, not how much money you are willing to put into the boat etc. Hence why I liked the 12m and the most recent AC monohull boats. Multi's would work, and should work. But the ego's of the folks in charge need to be taken out of the picture. Then again, maybe it was like that in the 20's and 30's also, but at least then, I also have not heard about needing to take things to court to decide the style of boat etc. Something to be said about one club per say holding the cup, deciding the rules etc.

Marty


----------



## MrPelicano

blt2ski said:


> THe race needed to be on the east coast where it was held for what 100 yrs or there abouts. Then get the thing out of the courts.
> 
> Yes the two races I mentioned use "oolder" maybe not as high tech. BUT, from a pure sailing standpoint, both series of boats have boats designed the same etc, granted 1d racing, but the crews them selves win or lose the race, not how much money you are willing to put into the boat etc. Hence why I liked the 12m and the most recent AC monohull boats. Multi's would work, and should work. But the ego's of the folks in charge need to be taken out of the picture. Then again, maybe it was like that in the 20's and 30's also, but at least then, I also have not heard about needing to take things to court to decide the style of boat etc. Something to be said about one club per say holding the cup, deciding the rules etc.
> 
> Marty


The odd thing about the current AC is that the AC45 racing has been everything the AC72 racing hasn't been. Lots of teams competing, great racing, pretty decent video, plenty of crowd interest. I didn't catch the event when it came to Newport but I've been told it worked really well at that venue.

But if it was only about sailing - as opposed to rich men's egos - it wouldn't be the Americas Cup.


----------



## blt2ski

I suppose the AC has ALWAYS been a rich man's ego trip to a degree. The AC 45's would probably be the better boat to use. More teams involved, better and more races, much like it was with the 12m and AC cup monohull boats. Similar to what they are doing to the volvo race, making the boats slightly smaller in length, so that more teams can reasonably compete etc. That is when it get interesting for fans etc, and makes them want to watch. 

Marty


----------



## bobperry

"I suppose the AC has ALWAYS been a rich man's ego trip to a degree. "

Yes Marty. Have you not been paying attention.?

Vanderbilt, Lipton not exactly just good old boys.


----------



## blt2ski

vanderbuilt? Lipton? How about rockerfellow? Didn't he join that group upon occasion.....

At one time a millionares game, now one has to be worth a billion to a trillion to play the game. Worth looking at, but not sure the toys are something I can even get around my head! at least with the Volvo race, I can see the boat styles coming down to the lesser folks like us. The AC72 cats, kinda like the unlimited hydros on lk washington last weekend! At least they have a way to keep the low ball$$$ folks competing with the higher $$ teams. so from a fan stand point, much better to watch.

marty


----------



## JAndersB

Hi everybody,
You often ask for numbers from interesting sailboats. Opium 39 has been mentioned to some extent on this thread earlier and I have also given my impressions of my own Opium. 

We had an interesting sail in Kattegat from Grenå to Anholt the other day. It was rather light wind, 9-10 knots, so we hoisted the gennaker despite rather sharp wind angles. Our new gennaker is 130 sqm and with a very full cut for maximum downwind speed. It is on a Selden GX top down free furler. I was rather surprised to be able to reach 60-65 AWA/100-105 TWA and logging 7 knots through water with this sail, in full control as usually with the twin rudders. Main was mostly creating the slot and the windex was showing almost beating directions. This went on for almost 4 hours so we arriwed way ahead of all other boats heading for Anholt, as usual.

Anders


----------



## PCP

*Americas'cup*



MrPelicano said:


> Hey Paulo -
> 
> I'm an American and I'm from San Francisco, which is, as you note, a superb place to sail. But it is also the case that there has never been any public interest in yacht racing in SF despite the long, rich history of events going back to the 1930's. I raced on the Bay for years and none of my non-sailing friends and acquaintences had any idea such things took place there, even when they could look out on the water and see hundreds of boats.
> 
> But, as I've argued before, Americans in general don't care about yacht racing for all sorts of reasons, most of which are good ones. Let me list a few:
> 
> 1. It is remote from their daily life experience, unlike the sports they grow up with.
> 
> 2. It is technical and difficult to understand for uninitiated viewers.
> 
> 3. Unless the breeze is cranking - and sometimes even when it is - it's not very exciting to watch. Neither is chess and nobody watches that either... except chess players.
> 
> 4. The public perception is that it's a rich man's game - and in the case of the Americas Cup, that's totally correct - and Americans prefer more populist sports. Ironically, sailing is perhaps the only sport where amateurs can compete against professionals and Olympians on a regular basis, and for not much money - e.g., Melges 24, J/70, Lasers, 505s, etc.
> 
> The problem with this iteration of the Cup is that Larry Ellison and Russell Coutts imagined they could do what nobody else has ever done - turn sailboat racing into a commercially viable spectator sport comparable to NASCAR or F1 or something. That there was no actual demand for such a thing - i.e., no market niche crying out to be filled - didn't seem to occur to men with egos bigger than the AC72s, zipping along on SF Bay to no effect.
> 
> By contrast, the Extreme 40 multihull series has been very successful in doing what it set out to do - provide exciting, low-cost, spectator-friendly racing on a global tour. With a bit more investment in media, the Extreme 40 series would be nearly perfect. I also expect the Vendée Globe to benefit from the increased media investment it will get in the next iterations.
> 
> So, when all is said and done, the best thing that could happen to the AC is for Team Emirates New Zealand to win it and take it away from the madness of Larry Ellison and like-minded capitalists, and return it to a focus on competitive international sailing.
> 
> Ciao!
> 
> MrP


and yes, it can be made in a great top world wide sports event even if I doubt that it can be happen in America. In fact it was turned in that already by the guy from Allinghi. I have saw the two last editions in Valecia and I can tell you the last monohull edition was a very popular world wide event. Valencia was crowded with sailing fans and the races had an huge internet and tv coverage.

Things start to go wrong with the last edition with the money race for the ultimate racing machine. I have also been there and I can tell you that everything that was gained in making sailing a top world wide event was lost. It was a sad edition with 1/10 of the audience of the previous one.

I love those big wing cats, nothing wrong with them but if they do not manage to find a way to make an open race with lots of participants with equal chances of winning, then it will never be a success and for having lot's of boats they have to assure that the event is commercially viable. I mean sponsors have to pay for everything and in the end it should have a surplus of money to be distributed. That's what happens with F1 or football or MotoGP and that is not what happens with this edition of America's cup that is clearly not economically viable, I mean, somebody has to be paying because no way sponsorship is covering it and that is the main problem with it.

EH EH, i have internet on the boat and I am posting after having sailed 70Nm in less than 9 hours, anchored in a very nice spot (only boat here) and after having a superb meal on the waterfront restaurant. Life is good

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Hi everybody,
> You often ask for numbers from interesting sailboats. Opium 39 has been mentioned to some extent on this thread earlier and I have also given my impressions of my own Opium.
> 
> We had an interesting sail in Kattegat from Grenå to Anholt the other day. It was rather light wind, 9-10 knots, so we hoisted the gennaker despite rather sharp wind angles. Our new gennaker is 130 sqm and with a very full cut for maximum downwind speed. It is on a Selden GX top down free furler. I was rather surprised to be able to reach 60-65 AWA/100-105 TWA and logging 7 knots through water with this sail, in full control as usually with the twin rudders. Main was mostly creating the slot and the windex was showing almost beating directions. This went on for almost 4 hours so we arriwed way ahead of all other boats heading for Anholt, as usual.
> 
> Anders


Nice to hear from you and your Opium.

Regarding my Comet 41 and knowing the boat better now I am satisfied too. I was looking for a boat with a very good upwind performance and a boat that could sail with light winds. The boat does both things very well. With this boat you can really make way going dead against the wind tacking your way. Lot's of boats here and easy to see the difference. For the typical Benetau charter I would say I point almost 10 degrees higher (the new sails also help) and go faster.

Regarding light wind I can do 5/5.5K with 8K apparent wind. That should be about wind speed. Regarding downwind sailing this is not a planning boat at least solo sailed by me with an occasional help from my wife but it is very easy to go over 8K, even with light medium winds and the boat can maintain very easily average speeds over 7K.

In fact when I go over 9/10K I reef otherwise my wife gets scared. I need to have my son around to find out the boat potential and that is not happened yet.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Hi Paulo,
I am still catching up on the thread after last winters focus on our other big interest, snowboarding. I have read some posts from you regarding the Comet and they all make sense to me. In fact I think you are reaching very similar numbers as we we did with our previous Dehler 43CWS. 

I guess I am fortunate with a wife that likes wind, waves and speed but I think one still needs the like of Erics son "the weight watcher" in his Pogo 12.50, and even that boats missing cabin doors to reach level 2 and planing speeds in a crusing boat fully loaded with gear for a summer holiday spent at anchor. Nevertheless nice to beat all normal crusing boats despite taking long breakfasts.

Rgds,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Comet 41s - Dehler 43 CWS*



JAndersB said:


> Hi Paulo,
> I am still catching up on the thread after last winters focus on our other big interest, snowboarding. I have read some posts from you regarding the Comet and they all make sense to me. In fact I think you are reaching very similar numbers as we we did with our previous Dehler 43CWS.
> 
> I guess I am fortunate with a wife that likes wind, waves and speed but I think one still needs the like of Erics son "the weight watcher" in his Pogo 12.50, and even that boats missing cabin doors to reach level 2 and planing speeds in a crusing boat fully loaded with gear for a summer holiday spent at anchor. Nevertheless nice to beat all normal crusing boats despite taking long breakfasts.
> 
> Rgds,
> Anders


Hi Anders,

I believe you are a bit off in what regards numbers and the Comet 41s and the Dehler 43CWS. The 43 CWS was from the cruising line of yachts from Dehler and a relatively slow boat, compared with a performance cruiser.

In fact regarding going upwind with light winds if you look to the ORCi certificate from the Dehler 44 (a fast performance cruiser or cruiser racer as it is commonly named and much faster then the old 43 cruiser) and compare with the ORCi file from the Comet 41s you will find that the numbers are close:

Best beat angle for the Dehler 44 - 44.8. Best beat angle for the Comet 41s - 43.4. VMG for the Dehler 44 - 3.75. Velocity make good for the Comet 41s - 3.60.

That's quite good for the Comet since we are comparing a 41ft performance cruiser with a 44ft performance cruiser and a fast one.

Regarding your boat, the Opium 39, I don't know exactly what is the IRC rating but I know it is smaller than 1051 since it is the max allowed for entering the Transquadra and as you know on the last edition one raced there. The Comet 41s has a IRC rating of 1099 and even if I believe that in some points of sail and with some conditions the Opium 39 will be faster, it seems obvious that it will not be faster in all conditions, quite the contrary.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

My "interesting boat" is now ready for paint. Stripes have been taped off and we are ready to go.


----------



## PCP

*ORCi world championship 2013 - M37*

I and Mr Pelicano had talked about the ORCI world championship and about the boats that were racing there but not a word about results.

The winner in the Class B (the one that is normally won by cruiser racers) was a NM 38s, a beautiful boat that we had already talked about:

N M Yachts

Truth is that a NM37 that was fighting for victory was penalized over a story of 100kg of ballast on the bilges!!! and they where so pissed up that they retire from the race.

A mention to a Comet 38 s that was very near to the victory (2th).

On the Class A the TP52 dominated and the only cruiser racer (versus racing boats) that managed to stay on the 10 first was a very fast Dehler 44.

ADRIA FERRIES

ADRIA FERRIES

Some good reading:

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/ORCi-World-Championship---Tight-at-the-top-after-day-1/111193

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/ORCi-...e-day-left-until-champions-are-crowned/111356

http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/ORCi-World-Championship---Big-waves-on-final-day/111396


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Comet 41s - Dehler 43 CWS*



PCP said:


> Hi Anders,
> 
> I believe you are a bit off in what regards numbers and the Comet 41s and the Dehler 43CWS. The 43 CWS was from the cruising line of yachts from Dehler and a relatively slow boat, compared with a performance cruiser.
> 
> In fact regarding going upwind with light winds if you look to the ORCi certificate from the Dehler 44 (a fast performance cruiser or cruiser racer as it is commonly named and much faster then the old 43 cruiser) and compare with the ORCi file from the Comet 41s you will find that the numbers are close:
> 
> Best beat angle for the Dehler 44 - 44.8. Best beat angle for the Comet 41s - 43.4. VMG for the Dehler 44 - 3.75. Velocity make good for the Comet 41s - 3.60.
> 
> That's quite good for the Comet since we are comparing a 41ft performance cruiser with a 44ft performance cruiser and a fast one.
> 
> Regarding your boat, the Opium 39, I don't know exactly what is the IRC rating but I know it is smaller than 1051 since it is the max allowed for entering the Transquadra and as you know on the last edition one raced there. The Comet 41s has a IRC rating of 1099 and even if I believe that in some points of sail and with some conditions the Opium 39 will be faster, it seems obvious that it will not be faster in all conditions, quite the contrary.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo,
What I was trying to say is that your boat seems to give you the performance you where looking for, as the 43 CWS did mostly for us too.

And that the Opium up that one level in most conditions despite all vacation loads, not always with a big margin in speed, or non at all, but in those important for us and in overall control and comfort.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

One other reflection I did while going through the last 200 pages is that even if pure facts can say a lot about a boats performance my own experience says me that, besides all other estetic and other aspects, also hull shape and other under water aspects are important. On both the Azzurree 40 and recent RM1260 videos the boats are standing on their noses when beating or pressed hard. This my old Oceanis 40-2007 also did, which lifted the rudder out of the water. 

One of the best aspects of the Opium 39 is that it, for some reason I can not figure out, do not do this. The more it is pressed the more it lifts is nose out or remains level, also when beating. If reaching it is like my windsurfer, running more and more on the aft quarter and on the leeward rudder (=windsurfing fin). Even if this is still at merely 9-10 knots it is a very crisp and enjoyable feeling, as I said, like getting a windsurfer or motorboat going.

Another nice aspect, even if this is not what it is designed for and also rather bad at in light wind, is running dead downwind. We started our vacation sail with a 90NM run dead downwind along the Swedish west coats. In the night before it blew 43 knots and when we left it blew a constant 20-26 knots and swell. We poled out the genoa and had full main and remained like this for the whole trip and did not have to touch a sheet. My wife and son baked down below, slept on the cockpit floor (so wide it can sleep 2 easily), made a steak in the owen etc, all the time with a sense of no problems. The boat did around 9-9,5 knots with ocassional small surfs upp to 11 knots but as we where going dead downwind that was it. Boat fully loaded with 3 bikes, windsurfing and 3 kite kits, inlines, kickboards and all other stuff for a summer afloat. I think my old Dehler 43 CWS would have given similar speed but with much more rolling motion.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*American sail racing...nice movie.*






American Sailors Pilot Episode from Black Lake Studio & Press on Vimeo.


----------



## bjung

*Re: Opium 39*



JAndersB said:


> One other reflection I did while going through the last 200 pages is that even if pure facts can say a lot about a boats performance my own experience says me that, besides all other estetic and other aspects, also hull shape and other under water aspects are important. On both the Azzurree 40 and recent RM1260 videos the boats are standing on their noses when beating or pressed hard. This my old Oceanis 40-2007 also did, which lifted the rudder out of the water.
> 
> One of the best aspects of the Opium 39 is that it, for some reason I can not figure out, do not do this. The more it is pressed the more it lifts is nose out or remains level, also when beating. If reaching it is like my windsurfer, running more and more on the aft quarter and on the leeward rudder (=windsurfing fin). Even if this is still at merely 9-10 knots it is a very crisp and enjoyable feeling, as I said, like getting a windsurfer or motorboat going.
> 
> Another nice aspect, even if this is not what it is designed for and also rather bad at in light wind, is running dead downwind. We started our vacation sail with a 90NM run dead downwind along the Swedish west coats. In the night before it blew 43 knots and when we left it blew a constant 20-26 knots and swell. We poled out the genoa and had full main and remained like this for the whole trip and did not have to touch a sheet. My wife and son baked down below, slept on the cockpit floor (so wide it can sleep 2 easily), made a steak in the owen etc, all the time with a sense of no problems. The boat did around 9-9,5 knots with ocassional small surfs upp to 11 knots but as we where going dead downwind that was it. Boat fully loaded with 3 bikes, windsurfing and 3 kite kits, inlines, kickboards and all other stuff for a summer afloat. I think my old Dehler 43 CWS would have given similar speed but with much more rolling motion.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Anders,
I seem to recall from a previous post, that you have the swingkeel version. Can the Opium be sailed with its keel partially retracted, or is it an all or nothing deal as with Pogo?


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: ORCi world championship 2013 - M37*



PCP said:


> I and Mr Pelicano had talked about the ORCI world championship and about the boats that were racing there but not a word about results.
> 
> The winner in the Class B (the one that is normally won by cruiser racers) was a NM 38s, a beautiful boat that we had already talked about:
> 
> N M Yachts
> 
> Truth is that a NM37 that was fighting for victory was penalized over a story of 100kg of ballast on the bilges!!! and they where so pissed up that they retire from the race.
> 
> A mention to a Comet 38 s that was very near to the victory (2th).
> 
> On the Class A the TP52 dominated and the only cruiser racer (versus racing boats) that managed to stay on the 10 first was a very fast Dehler 44


I believe it was Jason Ker, in another ORCi video Paulo posted, who noted that the dominance of the TP52's was more a reflection of the fact the top teams are sailing them and have many years spent in optimizing the boats, than a function of their design. I take this to mean that the Dehler 44 is a very competitive design that could easily have won if the top teams were sailing them (not to take anything away from the crew of the one that did well).

If memory serves, this was the second year the same NM38 won this class in the ORCi Championships, so clearly it is well prepared and very well sailed.

MrP


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: American sail racing...nice movie.*



PCP said:


> American Sailors Pilot Episode


This is a surprisingly well-made film, smart and not too dumbed down for the non-sailing public. Wish we would see more of them. I understand that someone in my part of the U.S. is currently finishing up a film devoted to what we call "Frostbite" racing in the Northeast Region. After spending my first season frostbiting my Laser this past winter, I am very much looking forward to seeing the film. Of course, our friends in Scandinavia will no doubt have a good laugh, since frostbiting is a common thing for them almost the entire year.


----------



## opc11

*Re: Capado, the French Fox 10.20 is on US.*

Newport, RI = where I grew up. Always nice to see it.....just wish it was me...on my boat. Someday, someday.


----------



## JAndersB

Hi bjung,
No, I have the fixed keel with 2,15 m draft on the Opium. I do not know if the swing keel can be partially deploided but I would be surprised if it did not.

Regards, Anders


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: American sail racing...nice movie.*



MrPelicano said:


> This is a surprisingly well-made film, smart and not too dumbed down for the non-sailing public. Wish we would see more of them. I understand that someone in my part of the U.S. is currently finishing up a film devoted to what we call "Frostbite" racing in the Northeast Region. After spending my first season frostbiting my Laser this past winter, I am very much looking forward to seeing the film. Of course, our friends in Scandinavia will no doubt have a good laugh, since frostbiting is a common thing for them almost the entire year.


Not so much frost at the moment up here. We had no rain for 5 weeks in Danish waters, 20-25 degrees C (max 32 C), sun and 22-23 C in water. Good for the boating industry I hope.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## sevvy

nice lines for sure


----------



## PCP

*Americas'cup : Oracle Team USA under suspicion*

Does anybody knows more about this?

*"Coarse misconduct? For violation of the class rules are retroactive to the team four regattas. Closures are possible.

Especially now that the America's Cup defender Oracle Team USA needs every good headline because of the disappointing elimination series, this is like a hammer:

The International America's Cup Jury initiated an investigation for gross misconduct (Rule 69) against Team. This can result in the blocking of individual athletes or entire teams to be.

Apparently corresponded to the two AC 45 catamarans, which started the team during the AC World Series, not the class rules. It is a unit class. In the preparations of the boats for the Youth America's Cup, the first on September starts, it has been discovered that in addition 2.5 kg weight were added to the front bracket means in both vessels. Whether this would have an effect on the speed boat or even influence the final result, although it is not clear yet if it were a clear and deliberate so serious violation of the class rules.

The American team responded immediately. Team boss Russell Coutts withdrew both boats of the past four races, these are re-evaluated. In a statement, it says: "The changes were made by a small group of sailors over a year ago, the team management and the skipper were not informed, and it was not adhered to internal procedures.."

....
The investigation for gross misconduct is still ongoing."*

YACHT online - Europas grösstes Segelmagazin im Netz | YACHT.DE

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN096.pdf


----------



## PCP

*The Fastnet has started!!!*






Rolex Fastnet Race Homepage

You can follow on the tracker:

Rolex Fastnet Race 2013 Fleet Tracking


----------



## PCP

*and also on and hot: The European ORCI championship*


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Americas'cup : Oracle Team USA under suspicion*



PCP said:


> Does anybody knows more about this?


This will help: America's Cup Videos & Highlights | Sailing - TVNZ Sport

You can also read a lot about the whole thing at Sailing Anarchy as well.

Probably just a bone-headed mistake on Oracle Racing's part, as opposed to actual "cheating", but still doesn't reflect well on the organization.

Now that Artemis has been summarily dispatched to oblivion by Luna Rossa, we can sleep through the next two cycles and fast forward to the Americas Cup returning to New Zealand and, hopefully, the restoration of sanity to the whole business.


----------



## JAndersB

Another input from this (fantastic) summer was sailing through Lilla Bält in Denmark, in wind that was picking up. We knew we had a long reach to sail after passing through this narrow sound between mainland Denmark and Fyn so despite having too much sail up for the beat we decided to hang on to it and play the traweller a lot. Wind was gusting from 10-25 knots. Then a Dragonfly appeared out from the marina near their factory. I think it was the new 32 but it could have been the 28. It was carrying full carbon like sails with a massive fat head. 

It was rather astonishing to see how well she just transformed the gusts to speed and both reaching and beating the boat seemed fully in control. In another thread here about multi hulls there was a long discussions about daggeboards or not and that multihulls (cats) are very sensitive to gusty conditions. The Dragonfly seemed not to be, at least.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## Edward3

Oceanis 38

The Oceanis 38 features a continuous full-length chine and deep draft T-shaped keel, which has proven to enhance performance, increase stiffness and provide stability while reducing heel. Moreover, the yacht's twin rudders make way for a more responsive helm. Design by Finot-Conq.

Oceanis 38 by Beneteau: your boat, your rules - YouTube

Oceanis 38 / Oceanis / Sailboats - BENETEAU USA


----------



## JAndersB

Edward3 said:


> Oceanis 38
> 
> The Oceanis 38 features a continuous full-length chine and deep draft T-shaped keel, which has proven to enhance performance, increase stiffness and provide stability while reducing heel. Moreover, the yacht's twin rudders make way for a more responsive helm. Design by Finot-Conq.
> 
> Oceanis 38 by Beneteau: your boat, your rules - YouTube
> 
> Oceanis 38 / Oceanis / Sailboats - BENETEAU USA


Having ovned an Oceanis 40-2007 - and having asked for twin wheels and twin rudders for many years - or at least decent steering positions and rudder control - it is interesting to see all these new models popping up. Oceanis 38, Ovni 39, Allures 39,9, Dehler 38 etc.

Impressive new thinking, Beneteau!


----------



## JomsViking

*Re: Interesting Sailboats - PI14 update*

Finished hull, weigth 448 Kg (998 Pounds):
Billeder - uge 32: Skrog ved at blive vendt


----------



## PCP

*Oceanis 38*



Edward3 said:


> Oceanis 38
> 
> The Oceanis 38 features a continuous full-length chine and deep draft T-shaped keel, which has proven to enhance performance, increase stiffness and provide stability while reducing heel. Moreover, the yacht's twin rudders make way for a more responsive helm. Design by Finot-Conq.
> 
> Oceanis 38 by Beneteau: your boat, your rules - YouTube
> 
> Oceanis 38 / Oceanis / Sailboats - BENETEAU USA


This had to be a great design. The Oceanis 37 was one of the most advanced and best designs on the Benetau line for years and one of the Benetau that was kept in production for more time. I liked a lot the 37 and the main criticism went to the lack of options and the possibility to order a boat that fully exploited the hull without having to make a lot of (expensive) modifications in the rigging.

Regarding hull design and interior options it seems that Benetau got it right. He asked the same designers (hull/rig and interior) to make a better and fast boat and Finot/Conq and Nauta design delivered what was asked. My only doubt is if to all that interior possibilities corresponds also different rigging options. With the right rig this boat is going to be a fast and fun sailing boat.

The boat is beamy (3.99m), on the tradition of solo racers, light (6340kg), with all the ballast in a torpedo at 2.00m (1790kg) and two rudders. With all that hull form stability, that ballast on a torpedo the boat is going to be stiff and with a nice designed hull, I have no doubts that it has the potential to be fast, specially on a reach or downwind.

It seems that Beneteau keeps innovating on the right path and that's why they are the biggest boat manufacturer.

They not only use the best NA has they were the first big builder to understand the advantages of solo racers typology for the demands of the main line cruising boats. This is probably the hull that goes more on that direction. I am sure it will be a very forgiving and easy to sail sailboat.






Sail-World.com : Beneteau and their new, flexible, Oceanis 38

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Twin rudders*



JAndersB said:


> Having ovned an Oceanis 40-2007 - and having asked for twin wheels and twin rudders for many years - or at least decent steering positions and rudder control - it is interesting to see all these new models popping up. Oceanis 38, Ovni 39, Allures 39,9, Dehler 38 etc.
> 
> Impressive new thinking, Beneteau!


You know, in what regards boat control unless the boat is really beamy (and all the boats you have mentioned are) the twin rudder is not needed for control and can even add more drag. On the type of boats that are more narrow, like mine, the First 40, the Salona 41 or the Grand Soleil 39 you will have perfect control (at least on most boats, it seems that the GS 39 is a bit nervous) with a deep single rudder.

In fact I had not yet managed to broach my boat (having always the time to let go the main sheet) even in the big gusts you get near the high coast line of Greece. I always and had a big control (and sensitivity) on the rudder and cannot complain about boat control. It makes a huge difference (for better) regarding the old Bavaria 36.

But If I could change something on my boat it would be the rudder, for a twin rudder and the wheel, for a twin wheel setup.

I am sure that I would lose some of that marvelous sensibility on the rudder but the twin wheel setup would allow me to go much faster and easier to the winches to rearrange the sail set up but most of all I would like to have a twin rudder and that has nothing to do with boat control (that is very good) but with cruising convenience.

My boat has a draft of 2.25m and that big rudder goes almost has deep as the keel, at least 2.0m maybe just a bit more. I have no problem in touching with my lead keel on the bottom at very slow speed but I have a problem in doing that with the rudder, even at slow speed. In fact I would have preferred my boat having a 2.4 or even 2.5m keel and the rudder the same size.

This is especially important in Greece where in all those little ports you lay the anchor ahead and go backwards to the quay. Many quays have enough deep two or three m away but have only 1.5 or 1.8 m on the quay and a big rudder is really not only a big disadvantage but dangerous when you move backwards.

This is for me the main advantage of twin rudders even on moderate hulls that could pass without them. They also offer an added advantage if some debris hit and break one of the rudders. The other will offer you some steerage of the boat, a perfect one on the right tack and a limited one on the other tack. Better than nothing.

Of course, it has to have some disadvantage LOL. and it has. The boat is harder to maneuver in ports or marinas...but then it is a small disadvantage and you can always have a bow thruster.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*The Balaton bullet: Code 8*

I had posted already about this one. It was one of the boats that had impressed me on the Dusseldorf boat show: It looked right

Yacht de test sailed the boat and they have called it the Balaton (lake) bullet. It seem they were impressed too and that the boat not only looks good but sails very well. *Great movie*:

Code 8 ? Das Geschoss vom Plattensee - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

*"Small boat cost...big boat fun".*

PS- There is a reason for posting so much today: Stuck on an anchorage with the Meltemi blowing outside widely. My wife don't want to go out...so...


----------



## PCP

*Fastnet*

some great news:the SCA team, best known has the girl's team (volvo70) is doing extremely well on the race to the point of being ahead on the canting keel classification (compensated) near the rock.

Some videos:


























http://fastnet.rorc.org/news-2013/race-videos-2013/2013-race-videos.html


----------



## robelz

*Essence 33*

Look at this beatiful daysailer: Essence 33 - Essence Yachts. For me it is a really nice mix of classical and very modern elements...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Essence 33*



robelz said:


> Look at this beatiful daysailer: Essence 33 - Essence Yachts. For me it is a really nice mix of classical and very modern elements...


Except for the blue upholstery ....I agree. Beautiful boat indeed.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Conclusion: You don't need a big boat to sail fast!!!*


----------



## PCP

*And Cowes week was also raced recently: some movies*


----------



## robelz

The only finishers up to now in the 2 handed class at the Fastnet are a J/122 followed by a J/111. Thought both were made for crewed racing? Will they be at last true shorthanded rockets?


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: And Cowes week was also raced recently: some movies*

I had the good fortune to be able to compete at Cowes Week in 1998, aboard a chartered Humphreys 35 in one of the CHS classes. It was quite an experience - over 1,000 boats in what was a non-Fastnet year. Weather was unexpectedly tropical, save for the Monday when it blew very hard - well into the low 30's - and we had a few exciting broaches downwind.

Cowes is a charming town, dedicated to sailing, and the Solent is a terrific place to sail - very challenging with currents, sand bars, ferry traffic, and the full range of wind strength. Very much looking forward to getting back there some time, preferably in a Fastnet year.


----------



## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> The only finishers up to now in the 2 handed class at the Fastnet are a J/122 followed by a J/111. Thought both were made for crewed racing? Will they be at last true shorthanded rockets?


Well, I think the real shorthanded rockets were the Class 40s, which had their own division. J/111's are sailed shorthanded quite a bit - the Swedish boat "Blur" has some videos on YouTube of some singlehanded racing, for example. And I believe the J/105 is a very popular shorthanded weapon in the U.K. and Europe, as it is in the U.S.

So, plenty of shorthanded rockets out there, and probably many more to come as people look for ways to cut the costs of racing.


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> The only finishers up to now in the 2 handed class at the Fastnet are a J/122 followed by a J/111. Thought both were made for crewed racing? Will they be at last true shorthanded rockets?


When people talk about solo racers normally it is implied that they are Ocean racers and that means Transat or circumnavigation in the trade winds. None of the Jboats would be very good at it but then the Fastnet is not on the trade windsneither a long race and has at least is half upwind sailing...so things can be quite different.

On another class (3 if I am not mistaken) a J120 is also making a hell of a race but that is also a great crew that fights for overall leadership on the IRC championship. Great old boat anyway.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Fastnet*

From a British sail magazine:

*Fastnet Race 2013: French Domination*

*Double-handed father and son team takes overall victory and French take the top 10 by storm*.

Not only does this year's Fastnet Race look likely to be dominated by the French, the overall winner is a two handed boat with father and son team Pascal and Alexis Loison from Cherbourg, France. Their JPK 10.10, Night and Day, arrived at 07:19:57 BST this morning making their elapsed time 3 days 18 hours 29 minutes and 57 seconds for the 611 mile race. The Loisons slipped across the finishing line 36 minutes ahead of sistership Noel Racine's Foggy Dew which was fully crewed.
Winning the overall IRC prize in the Rolex Fastnet Race means that Pascal and Alexis Loisin will receive the Fastnet Challenge Cup as well as a Rolex Chronograph.
In such a tactical race for a two handed crew to take the top prize in the world's biggest offshore race is particulary impressive.
Also impressive is the French dominance in the overall standings with the current rankings showing 12 of the top 15 places occupied by French sail numbers, five of them JPK 10.10 models.

Read more at Fastnet Race 2013: French Domination | Yachting World

Father and son crew winning the Fastnet... really nice. Chapeau and congratulations to them.

On the top 15 5 JPK 10.10, besides the overall win...I have been telling you guys that is a great boat. Results shows that I know what I am talking about, at least in this case LOL.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Is there anything Frank Cammas can't do?*

Fresh from his dominating win at the Tour de France a la Voile, Frank Cammas is preparing for action at the C Class Catamaran "Little Americas Cup" aboard this rocketship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fAKWAzyw-s8]Groupama C prend son envol - YouTube

Truly, is there anything that Monsieur Cammas can't do on the water? Amazing!


----------



## PCP

*Re: Is there anything Frank Cammas can't do?*



MrPelicano said:


> Fresh from his dominating win at the Tour de France a la Voile, Frank Cammas is preparing for action at the C Class Catamaran "Little Americas Cup" aboard this rocketship:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fAKWAzyw-s8]Groupama C prend son envol - YouTube
> 
> Truly, is there anything that Monsieur Cammas can't do on the water? Amazing!


That is wonderful, I mean that Franck Cammas have convinced Groupama to have a go to the C class little America's cup. That is a very interesting event, affordable and where imagination an innovation runs wild. Till know it has been interesting but a secondary event with not many teams and few really competitive.

That risks to change. I hope more prime cat racers follow Cammas and convince their sponsors that can be a god run for the money with big exposure. The boats are spectacular and with many top teams the show is going to attract viewers and will pay off.

For the ones that don't know what is the C class:






And regarding Cammas and the Tour de France, a nice Video:


----------



## PCP

*Elan 320: can you improve on a great little boat?*

The Elan 310 was a favorite:






Sure, it has not the performance (or light weight) of a A31 but it is less expensive and has a great cruising interior. A very good performance cruiser that is not ridiculous racing specially short crew racing.

And what about the new MKII (Elan 320)?: It looks nice.





Is it better?

http://www.elan-yachts.com/img/yachts/e320/ELAN_320_press_release.pdf

It looks nicer but I am not convinced by the two wheel setup. They probably will offer it with a tiller and that makes a lot more sense in my opinion. Now about a 6% saving in weight...it is not much but it is better than nothing

What do you think about this cute little one?


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Elan 320: can you improve on a great little boat?*



PCP said:


> The Elan 310 was a favorite:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, it has not the performance (or light weight) of a A31 but it is less expensive and has a great cruising interior. A very good performance cruiser that is not ridiculous racing specially short crew racing.
> 
> And what about the new MKII (Elan 320)?: It looks nice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it better?
> 
> http://www.elan-yachts.com/img/yachts/e320/ELAN_320_press_release.pdf
> 
> It looks nicer but I am not convinced by the two wheel setup. They probably will offer it with a tiller and that makes a lot more sense in my opinion. Now about a 6% saving in weight...it is not much but it is better than nothing
> 
> What do you think about this cute little one?


Looking nice. Having owned an Elan 333 and been near to buy 380 and 350 it is interesting to follow them. One minor thing but one that today, after beeing spoilt by the Opium and seeing other brands doing the same, is Elans unwillingness to make hull windows. That tiny one in the saloon is not enough. Ok, this one is a small boat but the new 400 is the same. We asked them for hull windows for and aft for the 380 but got a no.

Let's see if they can keep weight down. 350 was too heavy.

Regards
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

Hi everybody,
As I indicated before change in family set up (children getting older) and possibility for us to spend much more time on the boat might motivate a change in equipment used. 

We prefer to cruise in the baltic sea, Denmark and on the Swedish west cost. Harbour set ups and desire to spend most time at anchor, or tucked away in a corner of a city marina, especially in autumn, indicate that present wonderful boat might be too big for only the two of us. So anyone interested in a more than fully equipped Wauquiez Opium 39 - 2011, so rightfully praised here, could send me an e-mail for specs etc.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: Elan 320: can you improve on a great little boat?*



JAndersB said:


> ....
> 
> Let's see if they can keep weight down. 350 was too heavy.
> 
> Regards
> Anders


And there you have the new 360, a MKII of the 350:





They anounce about the same savings in weight regarding the 350 but it is still too heavy. I mean the boat is not more heavy than the competition (mass market performance cruisers) but the boat looks more aggressive than the others and I for the looks we would say that the boat can plan with a reasonable amount of wind (14 or 15K) like the Pogo.

Well no, I don't think so. The boat weights too much and 20, more probably 25K are needed to bring it and maintain it on planning speeds, assuming a boat not charged. So it will only plan while racing, given the right circunstances. Few cruisers will sail by choice with 25K of wind and if so they will do it with a defensive sail set up, so no planing at all.

By the way I am at a bay in Kimolos bay waiting that Meltemi to blow away. On the bay there are 25 to 35K and no way I can convince my wife into sailing to the next Island. Too uncomfortable for her and I don't think it is only for her since I am here at a day and a half with plenty boats taking shelter and I don't see a single boat sailing on the horizon (the ones that come arrive motoring even if I arrived sailing). So, planning on a Elan 360 while cruising with a short crew...I doubt very much.

Anyway, it is a great and fast performance cruiser and I like it.

Here the test with the previous model (MKI), the 350:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

I agreee, to get a "normal" performance cruiser up on a sustained planing you need to set a big gennaker in 20-25 knots of wind, and preferable a swell also, which non racing crews does not do.

We are also rather amused by the normal sailing behaviours up here in the baltic. We like to sail with a lot of wind, at least reaching, and prefer to sail in bad wether and enyoy the sun and beach at sunshine and no wind. Most others do the opposite and start the engines at 8 a clock regardless of wind forecasts promising some wind later that day or no wind forcasted at all.


----------



## PCP

*America's Cup : the LV finale - Great movie*

The ones that say nonsense about these boats and the lack of interest should have a look: what a spectacle!!!

Not many on the shore to see the race, but that is another story. I guess no matter the type of boat you would have the same people or less.

Team NZ smashed Luna Rossa to the point of having survived a huge nose dive (don't miss it on the movie), losing to crew members and even so being able to win the race.






Regarding that story of losing crew members (recovered by the organization boat) and still win, kind of immoral. If they lose them they should be obliged to pick them (and then would lose the race).

Kind of imagining two boats side by side near the finish line on weak winds and all the crew except the rudder man jumping to the water, making the boat almost a ton lighter and allowing it to win. That can be done? Probably there is nothing on the rules that can prevent that. Maybe I am giving some ideas to those guys


----------



## PCP

*Don't miss this : For the first time in more than 80 years the Fastnet...*

*was won by a skeleton crew*: Two on a JPK 10.10 and more than that, *father and son*. What a family, what a pleasure!!!


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: RC 44 downwid*



PCP said:


> Not properly a downwind boat the RC 44...but with lot's of wind the boat can go faster...and a bit like a submarine


My son sails 29er in GKSS, the club that runs many of the big competitions in Marstrand, and GKSS was somehow involved in the RC44 tour visiting in june. They invite youngsters to join for one race in every stop over so the GKSS (Gothenbourg Royal Sailing Club) 29er team got the offer. Joel, my son, got the place in Synergi from Russia, with Ed Baird as tactician, and got to grind up the main before the start and sit at the back of the boat for a complete race. What an experience:hothead


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: RC 44 downwid*



JAndersB said:


> My son sails 29er in GKSS, the club that runs many of the big competitions in Marstrand, and GKSS was somehow involved in the RC44 tour visiting in june. They invite youngsters to join for one race in every stop over so the GKSS (Gothenbourg Royal Sailing Club) 29er team got the offer. Joel, my son, got the place in Synergi from Russia, with Ed Baird as tactician, and got to grind up the main before the start and sit at the back of the boat for a complete race. What an experience:hothead


Forgot, he made a 5 minutes long video from the occasion. It was raining like hell so GoPro-lens wet at time. Some sequences filmed with my waterproof Sony Mobile also (I was in a rib). Have a look especialla at the mayhem at the first wind ward mark rounding (starting at 3:40). Ed Baird does not really agree with jury


----------



## PCP

*America's Cup : the LV finale - race two*

and that nose dive explained and viewed in detail and...surprise: Great!!!!


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: America's Cup : the LV finale - race two*



PCP said:


> and that nose dive explained and viewed in detail and...surprise: Great!!!!/QUOTE]
> 
> "We didn't execute it as well as we could've..."
> 
> The understatement of the year.
> 
> Actually, what impressed me is how quickly the boat recovered. Dean Barker was quite right when he noted that they were never in danger of going to the coal mine. The boat decelerated then popped right back up. I'm wondering if they just got lucky or if there is more buoyancy in the forward sections of the hulls than there is (was) in the Oracle boat that flipped.
> 
> On a less generous note, it troubles me a little bit to think that this was precisely the sort of "action" that Ellison / Coutts have in mind for attracting non-sailing fans to the AC - i.e., making it more like NASCAR. Not being a fan of NASCAR or of any activity that promotes itself based on the dangers to the participants - though I need to be careful because even the VOR and Vendée Globe sometimes lean in that direction - I'd prefer not to see these kinds of accidents at all. But that's just me, and I'm not Mr. Risk Averse in personal life. Just don't like to see that factor used to promote "spectator interest" when the thing itself is more than entertaining and exciting enough without accidents.
> 
> My 2 euros.
> 
> Mr.P


----------



## PCP

*Re: America's Cup : the LV finale - race two*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> 
> On a less generous note, it troubles me a little bit to think that this was precisely the sort of "action" that Ellison / Coutts have in mind for attracting non-sailing fans to the AC - i.e., making it more like NASCAR. Not being a fan of NASCAR or of any activity that promotes itself based on the dangers to the participants - though I need to be careful because even the VOR and Vendée Globe sometimes lean in that direction - I'd prefer not to see these kinds of accidents at all. But that's just me, and I'm not Mr. Risk Averse in personal life. Just don't like to see that factor used to promote "spectator interest" when the thing itself is more than entertaining and exciting enough without accidents.
> 
> My 2 euros.
> 
> Mr.P


I agree but I don't see the parallel with Nascar. What happens here is that the machines are so hard to drive at the limit that the minimum error could result in a spectacular figure. It happens the same in F1. The best go very near the limit and if they pass the limit...well the least it can happen is a spin. That was like a spin. It looked normal to me and not dangerous as you have pointed out.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## HMoll

> factor used to promote "spectator interest"/QUOTE]
> 
> Not that I agree with some sports salaries these days, nor am I a fan of any team of anything right now, but creating general spectator interest/excitement and growing viewership comes before growing funding and then increasing participation in sailing. Safety development is key especially when pushing limits, and as in F1 and NASCAR, precious lives will be lost, as we have in ocean racing (Low Speed Chase), cruising (Nina), and the recent AC (Simpson), all discussed in Sailnet.
> 
> To me, it was actually the VOR/ Extreme 40 circuit that untapped potential of multiple media in sailing sport. (How many of us spent the whole season online playing our own "virtual VOR?") This is how new players like Puma put (and apparently lost) a lot of money in the game, which then translated to consumer products, interest, etc. The Xtreme 40 circuit was all about promoting bay/stadium shows and promoting destinations as well. I'm just thinking it's very good for the sport that they're catching on to the auto industry/motorsport tools and strategies.
> 
> Sorry for my extended off topic here, hadn't posted in a while, and it's a provoking topic, especially when I used to follow (and do my bit of) motorsport too.
> 
> Paulo, glad it was just a scratch!
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Hans


----------



## HMoll

JAndersB said:


> One other reflection I did while going through the last 200 pages is that even if pure facts can say a lot about a boats performance my own experience says me that, besides all other estetic and other aspects, also hull shape and other under water aspects are important. On both the Azzurree 40 and recent RM1260 videos the boats are standing on their noses when beating or pressed hard. This my old Oceanis 40-2007 also did, which lifted the rudder out of the water.
> 
> One of the best aspects of the Opium 39 is that it, for some reason I can not figure out, do not do this. The more it is pressed the more it lifts is nose out or remains level, also when beating. If reaching it is like my windsurfer, running more and more on the aft quarter and on the leeward rudder (=windsurfing fin). Even if this is still at merely 9-10 knots it is a very crisp and enjoyable feeling, as I said, like getting a windsurfer or motorboat going.
> 
> I cannot agree more with JAndersB on the observation of poor balance that the RM1260 displays on a hard beat. Toby Hodges makes the same observation on his test. And the RM1060 seems to behave the same. I think that after following design numbers and the first launch of the RM on this same thread, expecting a rocket-performance cruising game-changer, excitement seemed to disappear very quickly. I wonder if it's just weight distribution of equipment, or simply rig tuning, but it's true that when I see them going upwind, I can only imagine the drag created by that dug-in bow, and it is somewhat disturbing and disappointing to me. Don't get me wrong, I find RM's fascinating and very desirable yachts for many other reasons, but I have yet to see one slicing upwind like it's actually meant for it. For some reason however, the whole formula starts to work with the 1350 and 1360, regarded as very fast boats.


----------



## robelz

Paulo, do you think, one can handle the MC34 Patton shorthanded?


----------



## JAndersB

HMoll said:


> JAndersB said:
> 
> 
> 
> One other reflection I did while going through the last 200 pages is that even if pure facts can say a lot about a boats performance my own experience says me that, besides all other estetic and other aspects, also hull shape and other under water aspects are important. On both the Azzurree 40 and recent RM1260 videos the boats are standing on their noses when beating or pressed hard. This my old Oceanis 40-2007 also did, which lifted the rudder out of the water.
> 
> One of the best aspects of the Opium 39 is that it, for some reason I can not figure out, do not do this. The more it is pressed the more it lifts is nose out or remains level, also when beating. If reaching it is like my windsurfer, running more and more on the aft quarter and on the leeward rudder (=windsurfing fin). Even if this is still at merely 9-10 knots it is a very crisp and enjoyable feeling, as I said, like getting a windsurfer or motorboat going.
> 
> I cannot agree more with JAndersB on the observation of poor balance that the RM1260 displays on a hard beat. Toby Hodges makes the same observation on his test. And the RM1060 seems to behave the same. I think that after following design numbers and the first launch of the RM on this same thread, expecting a rocket-performance cruising game-changer, excitement seemed to disappear very quickly. I wonder if it's just weight distribution of equipment, or simply rig tuning, but it's true that when I see them going upwind, I can only imagine the drag created by that dug-in bow, and it is somewhat disturbing and disappointing to me. Don't get me wrong, I find RM's fascinating and very desirable yachts for many other reasons, but I have yet to see one slicing upwind like it's actually meant for it. For some reason however, the whole formula starts to work with the 1350 and 1360, regarded as very fast boats.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an example of the Opium 39. Not beating but anyway. I described this occasion a couple of pages back. We are almost beating (at least with gennager, AWA 60 degrees) with a 130 sqm gennaker and wind speed 10-12 knots. At times with rail and sail touching water. Boat going very nice and with lifted bow.
> 
> https://plus.google.com/photos/104605790316756417442/albums/5914094027262939521?authkey=CNbc5Zyf-f_5qAE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (can not get the picture inserted so I inserted the link instead)
> 
> Regards,
> Anders
Click to expand...


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Interesting Sailboats lifting bow*

I think I found a way to insert the Picture even if small.








Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Paulo, do you think, one can handle the MC34 Patton shorthanded?







I don't see why not with the reserve that it is a very powerful boat and will need a lot of work reefing when the wind builds up but that is the same with all fast boats.

The two more important things in what regards solo sailing are a very good stability (and a boat that sails with not much heel) and the for the sailor the possibility of having easy access to all lines and controls keeping a hand or being near the wheel or tiller. The big tiller and extension seems perfect for that.

The hull design, tiller and the rig setup seems to cover all the criteria. Although it is not a boat for an inexperienced sailor since it is a very powerful one (I would say that it is for an experienced sailor) but as I have said the same can be said regarding all very fast boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

*Test in Sweden, open yard*

Hi, this weekend the traditional open yard inwater boatshow at Hallberg-Rassy in Ellös, Sweden, is taking place. Some 150 boats is showed and appr 24000 people visit.

I sailed my Opium 39 up from Gothenbourg today in very nice conditions, sun and 18-20 knots beam reach. Anchored near the show and vent for a run to Gullholmen marina. At the dock I found the Solaris One 37, the new Elan 400 and the Salona 38. Plenty of magazines where doing a comparative test of these three boats. Dines from Diamond-Yacht in Kiel, from who I bought the Opium was aboard the Solaris and told me that they smoked the other boats on the water. These tests are always difficult to evaluate, the Solaris had carbon Hall spar and 2,4 m-bulb keel. Others had alu masts, keels I do not know. All had good sails but the Salona was carrying more touring equipment.

The Solaris was stunning. As you can see from the pictures the Salona looked a little bit dated among thees new beats. Sorry, Paulo 

Regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

*picture*

Fight with app to get picture in...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Test in Sweden, open yard*



JAndersB said:


> Hi, this weekend the traditional open yard inwater boatshow at Hallberg-Rassy in Ellös, Sweden, is taking place. Some 150 boats is showed and appr 24000 people visit.
> 
> I sailed my Opium 39 up from Gothenbourg today in very nice conditions, sun and 18-20 knots beam reach. Anchored near the show and vent for a run to Gullholmen marina. At the dock I found the Solaris One 37, the new Elan 400 and the Salona 38. Plenty of magazines where doing a comparative test of these three boats. Dines from Diamond-Yacht in Kiel, from who I bought the Opium was aboard the Solaris and told me that they smoked the other boats on the water. These tests are always diffucult to evaluate, the Solaris had carbon Hall spar and 2,4 m-bulb keel. Others had alu masts, keels I do not know. All had goid sails but the Salona was carrying more touring equipment.
> 
> The Solaris was stunning. As you can see from the pictures the Salona looked a little bit dated among thees new beats. Sorry, Paulo
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Don't need excuses regarding your opinion but the fact is that a Salona 38 with identical specs of a Solaris 37 is a considerably faster boat and they have it, I mean Carbon rig, deep draft and epoxy, not to mention that it cost almost half the price.

You have on the North of Europe a famous Salona 37 (same hull) that have been racing at top level with great results. You will not be able to do that with a Solaris 37.

Have a looK:

?Feelgood? Salona 37 new ORCi European Champion! - Salona Yachts

Salona 37 won silver medal at ORC World Championship - Salona Yachts

and one big one more, just 4 days ago:

Öresund regatta: Team Feelgood Martin Nilsson i Salona 37 vinner Tjörn Runt






That's the boat:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151391421750677.430504.66798180676&type=3

There are more Salonas 37 competing at top level and winning, between them Lenco. Not a chance there for the Solaris...Yes I know, it was not made to compete at top level and it is only a relatively fast boat, not a fast boat...what can I say...I like fast boats.

Not saying that the Saloris 37 is not a great boat with a luxurious interior but in what regards myself I would prefer to buy a top Salona 38 and a brand new roadster for the price I would pay for the Solaris, or just spend the difference eating lobster and drinking champagne for the rest of my cruising days...but I am not a rich guy.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*and the other America's cup*

The kids got the new toys and they are training. It promises to be more competitive than the big series.


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau 41ds*

YachtingMonthly test:


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Test in Sweden, open yard*



PCP said:


> Don't need excuses regarding your opinion but the fact is that a Salona 38 with identical specs of a Solaris 37 is a considerably faster boat and they have it, I mean Carbon rig, deep draft and epoxy, not to mention that it cost almost half the price.
> 
> You have on the North of Europe a famous Salona 37 (same hull) that have been racing at top level with great results. You will not be able to do that with a Solaris 37.
> 
> Have a looK:
> 
> ?Feelgood? Salona 37 new ORCi European Champion! - Salona Yachts
> 
> Salona 37 won silver medal at ORC World Championship - Salona Yachts
> 
> and one big one more, just 4 days ago:
> 
> Öresund regatta: Team Feelgood Martin Nilsson i Salona 37 vinner Tjörn Runt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the boat:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151391421750677.430504.66798180676&type=3
> 
> There are more Salonas 37 competing at top level and winning, between them Lenco. Not a chance there for the Solaris...Yes I know, it was not made to compete at top level and it is only a relatively fast boat, not a fast boat...what can I say...I like fast boats.
> 
> Not saying that the Saloris 37 is not a great boat with a luxurious interior but in what regards myself I would prefer to buy a top Salona 38 and a brand new roadster for the price I would pay for the Solaris, or just spend the difference eating lobster and drinking champagne for the rest of my cruising days...but I am not a rich guy.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, I know the guy driving the feelgood Salona 37 pretty well. Former neighbour and same sailing club. I saw him winning the big Tjörn Runt competition you posted a video about and mentioned, last weekend.

Good looks comes at a price is an often used phrase. I can shurely say that having seen the Solaris but not yet the price list, I can imagine some high amounts in it.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: Essence 33*



robelz said:


> Look at this beatiful daysailer: Essence 33 - Essence Yachts. For me it is a really nice mix of classical and very modern elements...


A* movie* and boat test by Yacht.de:

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Essence-33%3A-Quintessenz-des-Daysailings/952e7bec064f9456d48d6545164b248f

Here we can not only see that it is a beautiful daysailer but also that sails very well.

I still don't like the upholstery but we can see on the movie that it is just a removable thing.

I love the head LOL.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Fastnet 2013 - Review. Great movie, great story.*


----------



## PCP

*From Brazil: Ilhabela sailing week.*


----------



## PCP

*From Australia, the Airlie Beach Race Week aboard a Sydney 38*


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Frank Cammas*

Speaking of Frank Cammas (again), he and his sailing partner Sophie de Turckheim are currently sitting in 5th position overall, after 9 races, at the Nacra 17 European Championships, on Lake Como. They are 18 points out of 1st and will have a very hard time catching the dominant Austrian pair of Tanja Frank and Thomas Zajac. At the same time, they have a 15 point gap over the 6th place Italians, so I imagine their focus will be on getting into that second or third podium spot.

Consider this is the Olympic mixed multihull class, which means many of the competitors are doing Olympic campaigns (include Cammas, I believe). In this case, Cammas is crewing and calling tactics, while Turckheim is driving. Pretty impressive stuff. From this event they will have the Worlds coming up next month, then the Little Americas Cup. What a life!


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Interesting Sailboats - Open yard*

Met the test boats today again. Salona 38, Elan 400 and Solaris 37, in very light winds.

Then I went for a test sail with the Dragonfly 32. Impressive speeds, 8-9 knots, with Code 0, in 8-9 knots of wind, beam reaching. Mr W:s parents also took part.

I also got a quick preview look at the Oceanis 38 (show starts tomorrow). Did not impress. Angular deck, low mast, small wheels. More tomorrow.

If I succeded with all picture upploads, you can see the nice cliffs at my anchorage, behind them is the Hallberg-Rassy yard.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Interesting Sailboats pictures*

More pictures, buggy site...


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Interesting Sailboats more pictures*

And the last picture..


----------



## Mr W

Hi guys! 

Anders, I´m impressed that you managed to figure out that it was my parents (well, my mother at least)! 

I´m in the final phase of deciding which boat will be my next. I´m choosing between a new Dragonfly 32 and a used Dragonfly 35. As you know, I went to Denmark last summer to test sail the DF 32. Since this was a while ago, I don´t remember the boat in detail, and now that they show the boat in Sweden it was a good opportunity to see the boat again. Unfortunately, I did not find time to go. So, I sent my mother! She has been taking pictures and measurements for me. I will make more posts regarding my decision process!

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Dragonfly 28*

I had narrowed my search down to a Dragonfly 28 or Dragonfly 32. But since there is a considerable difference in price, I figured we should probably go for a DF 28. They are also available as used boats, which would save me some more money 

I was offered to rent a DF 28 from the Stockholm based Dragonfly dealer, and so I did! I went for a 4 day cruise with my family. Our main objective was to find out if the boat was big enough for us to live in during 2-3 weeks vacation. Conclusion: It´s not! While there are many places to stow things, it´s inevitably a bit cramped inside the boat, with the four of us there at the same time! I bumped my head quite a few times... We had really nice wheather, so we spent most time outside. But every morning and evening, we experienced a bit of elbowing down below! For weekends it´s fine, because we only go sailing on weekends when the weather is good. But on extended trips, we need a boat that is more comfortable.

We didn´t rent it to find out if it was a good performer, I already know it is. However, we did get some exciting sailing! This boat was equipped with a self-tacker, which suits us very well. I did alot of the sailing myself, and when tacking back and forth in the narrow passages of our archipelago, the self-tacker proved to be invaluable! In 20+ knots of wind with 1st reef in the main, we were doing 8,5-10,5 knots upwind. Bearing of only a few degrees once, we immediately hit 12 knots.

The last few miles we decided to take down the sails and motor our way to the harbour. With the wind on our nose, I sure wished for an inboard engine...

So, despite some very nice days on the DF 28, we decided that we need to go bigger! The DF 32 will be the choice for us. But wait a minute, there are two DF 35´s for sale in Sweden...

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Dragonfly 35*

My impression of the DF32 has been that it is a much more performance oriented boat than the DF35, much lighter with a higher sail/weight ratio. All this with an equally sized interior. The DF 35 has therefore never been an option for me. But when I saw the results from Palby Fyn Cup, I discovered that a DF35 actually beat the DF32 (sailed by people from Quoring I think) on elapsed time! So, I started to look at the numbers, and found out that the DF35 actually isn´t relatively much heavier than the DF32 at all. I´ve seen numbers on the DF35 ranging from 4500-4800kg. I have only seen a measured weight on one DF32 and it is 3900kg. And since there is no major difference in performance, I went to look at the two second hand DF35´s available.

I had a short test sail a few weeks ago, winds were around 18-26 knots. One reef in the main and partially rolled in genoa. We started on a reach, TWA around 60-70 degrees. We were doing around 12-15 knots of boatspeed. Waves around 4 feet. A bit wet actually! We turned back home, now with TWA 120 degrees, and very dry. In a 26 knots gust, we hit almost 19 knots in comfort!

Coming back to the marina, folding was a simple procedure using the electric winch (so was hoisting the mainsail earlier), and the swing thruster makes going in to the slip very easy.

The cockpit is huge, with an aft grp arch to lean against. The main sheet traveler is not a very good solution though. It is controlled with a winch handle on the front side of the sheet track.

Inside I found it very cosy and warm, and compared to the DF28 it´s very spaciuos! This particular boat was rebuilt inside, from the original "port sofa-starboard galley" layout to the newer "classic" layout. There were a couple of things that differed from the classic layout though, which I didn´t like.

All in all, the DF35 is a very very nice boat, big and robust with lots of power under sail. I will decide which boat to buy before the end of next week! 

Best regards,
Mr W


----------



## JAndersB

Having gone throug the Open Yard boat show today I must repeat my earlier expressed opinion about the Soaris One 37. It is so good looking, well built, hull windows at the right places and with a cockpit and interior size more like a 45 footer than a 37. The Swedish journalist organizing the test the other day was going to return with a measuring tape, he could not believe the numbers.

Dragonfly 32 was another highlight. Also Dehler 38 looked rather OK but hull windows
where at the wrong places. Allures 39,9 nice but some cheap loking white drawer and storage fronts where dissapointing. Boreal 44 impressive also. Elan 400 like a big white elefant though, and interior not at all to my liking, both lay out and materials. Oceanis 38 rather interesting and new even if the floating caravan - impression is close to hand.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## bobperry

My 62' by 9'10" SLIVER Poject is now being painted. Here is the owner's son Derek looking at the stern and the keel. I know it's not built in Europe and doesn't look like 100 other production boats............ but it sure is interesting.


----------



## bobperry

My mother's maiden name was Nanelli. Does that help?


----------



## JAndersB

And a final note from open yard at H-R in Sweden. This time through my wife and sons eyes. And the winner is: Oceanis 38. I will testsail it on monday.

Also Dragonfly 32, Haber 34 C4 (!), Allures 39,9 and Solaris One 37 got approval. Dehler 38 to some extent.

Mr W: several Dragonfly 32 testsailors where DF35-owners thinking of switching to DF32 due to lower weight and more flotation in the amas. So I am a little bit surprised about your last note.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## Mr W

JAndersB said:


> Mr W: several Dragonfly 32 testsailors where DF35-owners thinking of switching to DF32 due to lower weight and more flotation in the amas. So I am a little bit surprised about your last note.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Hi Anders,

What last note did you referr to? That the Dragonfly 35 is an option? If this is what you mean, there is a good reason for it: around 100.000 euro... I can get a second hand DF35 for 100.000 euro less than a new DF32. The DF32 is lighter weight, but not by much. The DF35 is a bigger boat and carries more sail. I´ve had discussions during this summer with a DF35 owner (who is also a previous DF920 and DF1200 owner), who went to test sail the DF32 a couple of weeks ago. He couldn´t feel any difference regarding speed. To me, there are other differences that are more significant. If I didn´t have the additional money to buy the DF32, I´d go for a second hand DF35. But right now, I´m leaning towards the DF32.

If you want to discuss this further, please pm me!

Kind regards,
Mr W


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Interesting Sailboats - Beneteau Oceanis 38*

Test sailed the Oceanis 38 in Sweden today. Very light winds, 7-8 knots and really sh..ty sails. Furling main without battens was approximately the size of my sons Optimist-sail 

Anyway, the boat still took off and made appr 5-6 knots high on the wind. The hull is rather high in the rear and release water very nice in these conditions. The same goes for running under engine. Shaft is also replaced with S-drive so engine very quiet and without vibrations.

Stearing rather heavy though, and wheels small but this was one of the 7 pre-production examples that are shown at boat shows and then evaluated before serial production starts in november.

The hull looks really nice but as Paulo, myself and others have said before, the rig, blocks, sheeting etc. needs refinement for active and nice sailing experience. I spoke in lenght with the swedish journalist representative in the European Yacht Jury. He had test sailed the boat this morning and he also thought it was really easy driven and very innovative. He agreed that Beneteau could partly replace the First line with this hull with a better rig.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## bobperry

Here is my design WILD HORSES just after leaving the recent Perry Rendezvous in the PNW. I think this is an interesting one off. The hull is alu and the deck is composite.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dragonfly 28/32*



Mr W said:


> I had narrowed my search down to a Dragonfly 28 or Dragonfly 32. But since there is a considerable difference in price, I figured we should probably go for a DF 28. They are also available as used boats, which would save me some more money
> 
> I was offered to rent a DF 28 from the Stockholm based Dragonfly dealer, and so I did! I went for a 4 day cruise with my family. Our main objective was to find out if the boat was big enough for us to live in during 2-3 weeks vacation. Conclusion: It´s not! While there are many places to stow things, it´s inevitably a bit cramped inside the boat, with the four of us there at the same time! I bumped my head quite a few times... We had really nice wheather, so we spent most time outside. But every morning and evening, we experienced a bit of elbowing down below! For weekends it´s fine, because we only go sailing on weekends when the weather is good. But on extended trips, we need a boat that is more comfortable.
> 
> We didn´t rent it to find out if it was a good performer, I already know it is. However, we did get some exciting sailing! This boat was equipped with a self-tacker, which suits us very well. I did alot of the sailing myself, and when tacking back and forth in the narrow passages of our archipelago, the self-tacker proved to be invaluable! In 20+ knots of wind with 1st reef in the main, we were doing 8,5-10,5 knots upwind. Bearing of only a few degrees once, we immediately hit 12 knots.
> 
> The last few miles we decided to take down the sails and motor our way to the harbour. With the wind on our nose, I sure wished for an inboard engine...
> 
> So, despite some very nice days on the DF 28, we decided that we need to go bigger! The DF 32 will be the choice for us. But wait a minute, there are two DF 35´s for sale in Sweden...
> 
> //Mr W


Yes that was also my impression seeing the two boats interiors. The 32 is a true cruising boat, the 28 more a kind of weekender,able to cruise a week but no more. In that respect there are a huge difference between the two boats....and in price too if I remember well. Not a big difference in speed though.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> My mother's maiden name was Nanelli. Does that help?


Bob, we don't have a prejudice against american boats. Lot´s of posts about jboats it is just that the number of interesting boats on the European market (production and one off) are just in much bigger numbers. It seems the American market is turned to motorboats and even great production American boats like Jboats sell more in Europe than in the states.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Dragonfly 32/35*



Mr W said:


> Hi Anders,
> 
> What last note did you referr to? That the Dragonfly 35 is an option? If this is what you mean, there is a good reason for it: around 100.000 euro... I can get a second hand DF35 for 100.000 euro less than a new DF32. The DF32 is lighter weight, but not by much. The DF35 is a bigger boat and carries more sail. I´ve had discussions during this summer with a DF35 owner (who is also a previous DF920 and DF1200 owner), who went to test sail the DF32 a couple of weeks ago. He couldn´t feel any difference regarding speed. To me, there are other differences that are more significant. If I didn´t have the additional money to buy the DF32, I´d go for a second hand DF35. But right now, I´m leaning towards the DF32.
> 
> If you want to discuss this further, please pm me!
> 
> Kind regards,
> Mr W


Please discuss it here.

I think tat the biggest difference between the 32 and 35 is that the 35 has an offshore potential bigger than the one of the 32. The 32 seems to me much of a coastal cruiser while the 35 has bluewater potential. I have noticed that several 35 are used for that purpose.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Fastnet movie*

A BBC movie about the 1979 Fastnet. It is not a documentary but a great movie centered on one of the boats and its crew. Great stuff...but keep your wife away from it LOL.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Fastnet movie*



PCP said:


> A BBC movie about the 1979 Fastnet. It is not a documentary but a great movie centered on one of the boats and its crew. Great stuff...but keep your wife away from it LOL.


Yes, this is well worth taking a look at, and I personally found it quite moving. Anyone who has spent any time racing or sailing offshore is familiar with the anxiety that comes when the conditions become rough and you are out in the open.

I am not too proud to admit to having been afraid on several occasions offshore - although perhaps most afraid during a race in South Georgia Strait, between Vancouver Island and mainland British Columbia, when conditions went from fantastic to frightening within a matter of hours - winds gusting to 60 knots, driving rain, very cold, and trying to go upwind in a J/120 for 6 hours at night before finally making it to Secret Cove, on the mainland side, at dawn. Crossing the Columbia River Bar solo, delivering a Yankee 30 from Astoria, OR to Seattle, WA, was also a bit nerve-wracking.


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Dragonfly 32/35*



PCP said:


> Please discuss it here.
> 
> I think tat the biggest difference between the 32 and 35 is that the 35 has an offshore potential bigger than the one of the 32. The 32 seems to me much of a coastal cruiser while the 35 has bluewater potential. I have noticed that several 35 are used for that purpose.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Mr W and Paulo,
I am still a little bit pussled with the question of 32 or 35. I thought the 35 was supposed to weigh more but saw now on their web that it is rated at 3900 kg versus 3300 for 32 so no big difference. I though find the 35 as both too long and too wide folded, also with a mast height making some interesting bridges impossible. And having to go through the toilet to get to the forward cabin in the 35 seems to be better handled in the 32. But shure, there are some DF 35's at good prices on the market. And I thought Dragonfly would retain value well.....

Regards,
Anders


----------



## andreas.m.iversen

JAndersB said:


> Having gone throug the Open Yard boat show today I must repeat my earlier expressed opinion about the Soaris One 37. It is so good looking, well built, hull windows at the right places and with a cockpit and interior size more like a 45 footer than a 37. The Swedish journalist organizing the test the other day was going to return with a measuring tape, he could not believe the numbers.
> 
> Dragonfly 32 was another highlight. Also Dehler 38 looked rather OK but hull windows
> where at the wrong places. Allures 39,9 nice but some cheap loking white drawer and storage fronts where dissapointing. Boreal 44 impressive also. Elan 400 like a big white elefant though, and interior not at all to my liking, both lay out and materials. Oceanis 38 rather interesting and new even if the floating caravan - impression is close to hand.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Hi Anders. Do you have more pictures of the Solaris and the Salona from the Open Yard Boatshow you would like to share?

regards

Andreas Martin


----------



## JAndersB

andreas.m.iversen said:


> Hi Anders. Do you have more pictures of the Solaris and the Salona from the Open Yard Boatshow you would like to share?
> 
> regards
> 
> Andreas Martin


Hi Andreas,
I did not save that many pics. For both boats there are plenty on the net and the Salona 38 does not really do it for me. Trying to post the few I have.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Interesting Sailboats - Solaris and Salona pics*

Some more pics

Regards,
Anders


----------



## andreas.m.iversen

JAndersB said:


> Hi Andreas,
> I did not save that many pics. For both boats there are plenty on the net and the Salona 38 does not really do it for me. Trying to post the few I have.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders
> 
> View attachment 15444
> 
> View attachment 15445
> 
> View attachment 15446
> 
> View attachment 15447
> 
> View attachment 15448


Thanks! I'm most likely going to the boat show in Oslo next week to have a look, but really appreciated your images. intersting to not only see professional catalougue pictures, but real life pictures.

regards
Andreas Martin


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Interesting Sailboats - Dragonfly 32*

Test sailed the Dragonfly 32 today again and finally in some decent wind. Search Magazine is making an article about the boat and took pictures from a rib and later joined us. 16-22 knots TWS, rather gusty inside the archipelago. Full main and code zero so 110 sqm of sail. With jib only appr. 9 knots beating and reaching we topped 17,5 knots and typically 13-14 knots. Leeward amas almost burried totally.

At the same time the boat does not have a take off point as a normal hull has when starting to plane and it also has an area similar to a tennis court so speed sensation is not that stunning and in our mind might not justify the handling hassle in harbours, limited volume and high price. But you shurely will get quickly from A to B.

Have a look at Segling | Segling News | Search Magazine later. I am at the helm and wife Carina is laying on the netting trying to catch some sun in 17 knots of speed.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Dragonfly 32/35*



JAndersB said:


> Hi Mr W and Paulo,
> I am still a little bit pussled with the question of 32 or 35. I thought the 35 was supposed to weigh more but saw now on their web that it is rated at 3900 kg versus 3300 for 32 so no big difference. I though find the 35 as both too long and too wide folded, also with a mast height making some interesting bridges impossible. And having to go through the toilet to get to the forward cabin in the 35 seems to be better handled in the 32. But shure, there are some DF 35's at good prices on the market. And I thought Dragonfly would retain value well.....
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Hi,

Regarding Paulos note that the df35 would be more suitable for blue water cruising, I have to say the differences between the two are very small. The 35 is a little heavier and slightly longer. The amas of the 32 are extended one foot forward of the main hull, so almost as long as on the 35.

As mentioned before, weight difference is not much on the two, so the choice would depend on other things, such as interior layout.

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: Interesting Sailboats - Dragonfly 32*



JAndersB said:


> Test sailed the Dragonfly 32 today again and finally in some decent wind. Search Magazine is making an article about the boat and took pictures from a rib and later joined us. 16-22 knots TWS, rather gusty inside the archipelago. Full main and code zero so 110 sqm of sail. With jib only appr. 9 knots beating and reaching we topped 17,5 knots and typically 13-14 knots. Leeward amas almost burried totally.
> 
> ...
> Anders


Hi Anders,

Thanks, nice post. Some doubts and clarifications, please:

You talk of about 16/22 true wind full main and code zero, a huge sailing area for such light boat and the leeward amas almost fully buried to make 13/14K. That would put a enormous pressure on the boat structure and I assume that is only possible in pretty flat waters.

Around here, Ikario zone, Aegean that is pretty much almost everyday, I mean the wind, but it comes with a nasty broken sea with 2/3m waves, short and steep ones. With my wife protesting against the boat motion, waves and water coming from the bow I reduce sail (except downwind) to keep a speed of about 7K (could go at 8/8.5K). I wonder what kind of motion and speed the Dragonfly 32 would make on these conditions, that are the normal ones here in the summer. Can you make and educated guess since you have tried the boat?

Another question; Around here lots of Islands so it is quite common to sail on the leeward side of an Island even when going for another one. Gusting is terrible, never saw nothing like it, kind of jumping from 15 to 30 or 35K. Near the Islands on those conditions I keep the boat on second reef on the main and half reefed 35% genoa, doing 7/7.5K (flat water) and believe me that in some gusts I have to let the main go to keep control on the boat. Sailing on these conditions would not be dangerous on the Dragonfly 32, except with a very small amount of sail? These are the conditions were most multihull capsizes happens, not saying that it happens a lot but most of the ones that know off happened on these conditions.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Interesting Sailboats - Dragonfly 32*



PCP said:


> Hi Anders,
> 
> Thanks, nice post. Some doubts and clarifications, please:
> 
> You talk of about 16/22 true wind full main and code zero, a huge sailing area for such light boat and the leeward amas almost fully buried to make 13/14K. That would put a enormous pressure on the boat structure and I assume that is only possible in pretty flat waters.
> 
> Around here, Ikario zone, Aegean that is pretty much almost everyday, I mean the wind, but it comes with a nasty broken sea with 2/3m waves, short and steep ones. With my wife protesting against the boat motion, waves and water coming from the bow I reduce sail (except downwind) to keep a speed of about 7K (could go at 8/8.5K). I wonder what kind of motion and speed the Dragonfly 32 would make on these conditions, that are the normal ones here in the summer. Can you make and educated guess since you have tried the boat?
> 
> Another question; Around here lots of Islands so it is quite common to sail on the leeward side of an Island even when going for another one. Gusting is terrible, never saw nothing like it, kind of jumping from 15 to 30 or 35K. Near the Islands on those conditions I keep the boat on second reef on the main and half reefed 35% genoa, doing 7/7.5K (flat water) and believe me that in some gusts I have to let the main go to keep control on the boat. Sailing on these conditions would not be dangerous on the Dragonfly 32, except with a very small amount of sail? These are the conditions were most multihull capsizes happens, not saying that it happens a lot but most of the ones that know off happened on these conditions.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo and Mr W,
Regarding df32 or 35 there is a rather big difference in size folded. DF32 is 3,6*11,99 m and DF35 3,9*12,6 m.

Yes, 110 sqm in that wind is a lot. And it was ghusty but also total flat water. Having read how carefully people say one should sail a trimaran I was surprised how well it took it. It was enough that I fell away a little bit and we let out a little bit on the code zero in he heaviest ghusts. Never touched the main. But we where also 4 people on board so if alone I would not have done this. We also slightly destroyed the code zero so the forces are big and therefore all carbon sails.

Earlier when I sailed the boat in bigger swell and less wind I was very impressed how well it went sthraight through (narrow hulls) and at the same time over (light) the swell. Total controll, no slamming and no spray.

All in all, impressed how well it could handle the ghusts, as impressed as I was in the summer in Lilla Bält in Denmark, as described earlier. And slightly dissapointed with the sensation.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Interesting Sailboats - Dragonfly 32*

Some more thoughts regarding trimarans and monohulls for cruising with performance. The Dragonfly, when taking off, does this without further notice, just increasing speed gradually. At the same time it burries the leeward ama. And a narrow, burried ama does not create a nice planing wake but a deep hole. Also the narrow main hull and transom hang rudder creates not the clean wake I am used to from my windsurfer, my Opium 39 or my sons 29er. Combined with the big area of boat and at least for me problems to find the growe, speed and feel pretty similar regardless of unsteady heading, takes some of the thrill away.

Beating in 10 knots of wind in flat water with Opium, and even with the new Oceanis 38 with heavy wheels and bad sails, gently heeling over is almost as rewarding.

Just to share my difficult evaluation of yesterdays wild session 

Regards,
Anders


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Interesting Sailboats - Dragonfly 32*



PCP said:


> Hi Anders,
> 
> Thanks, nice post. Some doubts and clarifications, please:
> 
> You talk of about 16/22 true wind full main and code zero, a huge sailing area for such light boat and the leeward amas almost fully buried to make 13/14K. That would put a enormous pressure on the boat structure and I assume that is only possible in pretty flat waters.
> 
> Around here, Ikario zone, Aegean that is pretty much almost everyday, I mean the wind, but it comes with a nasty broken sea with 2/3m waves, short and steep ones. With my wife protesting against the boat motion, waves and water coming from the bow I reduce sail (except downwind) to keep a speed of about 7K (could go at 8/8.5K). I wonder what kind of motion and speed the Dragonfly 32 would make on these conditions, that are the normal ones here in the summer. Can you make and educated guess since you have tried the boat?
> 
> Another question; Around here lots of Islands so it is quite common to sail on the leeward side of an Island even when going for another one. Gusting is terrible, never saw nothing like it, kind of jumping from 15 to 30 or 35K. Near the Islands on those conditions I keep the boat on second reef on the main and half reefed 35% genoa, doing 7/7.5K (flat water) and believe me that in some gusts I have to let the main go to keep control on the boat. Sailing on these conditions would not be dangerous on the Dragonfly 32, except with a very small amount of sail? These are the conditions were most multihull capsizes happens, not saying that it happens a lot but most of the ones that know off happened on these conditions.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi guys,

One thing you must remember is that the boat Anders sailed is the Supreme version, with more sail area. The touring version might be more suitable to your area, Paulo.

The Df32 is designed with akas that are raised pretty high by the amas. This makes for a smoother ride; the ama can be fully burrowed, without the aka draging to much in the water.

I personally don't have experience of sailing in rough sea with a trimaran, but from what I have heard it makes good sense to slow the boat down for a more comfortable ride. What I do know is that the narrow hulls cut nicely through waves.

The boat testet by Anders also has a rather deep cut Code 0, which I can imagine was causing the boat to burrow the lee hull deep, especially if they were sailing on a close reach. Anders might have some more input here.

When I sailed the Df35 in almost 19 knots, we were on a broad reach. At that point, the lee hull was not burried all the way. The Df32 has even higher amas than the Df35. As Paulo mentioned, pressure is huge on these boats but they are built to take these loads. That's one of the reasons they are a bit pricey. Many Dragonflies are located around UK, where seas can get quite rough too, but they seem to do fine, even in offshore races.

//Mr W


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Dragonfly 32*

BTW, I will be able to give you more detailed information next summer, since I signed the contract on a new Dragonfly 32 today... Watch out for SWE 11 

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dragonfly 32*



Mr W said:


> BTW, I will be able to give you more detailed information next summer, since I signed the contract on a new Dragonfly 32 today... Watch out for SWE 11
> 
> //Mr W


So...Congratulations!!!!!! and we will be waiting for that full report. It is a lovely boat and with an amazing interior in what regards quality and use of space. That I know because I had visited the boat on a boat show and I know also that it is very fast....






but also that some prudence is needed when sailing in bad weather (that is a 28)






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sail news*


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Dragonfly 32*



Mr W said:


> BTW, I will be able to give you more detailed information next summer, since I signed the contract on a new Dragonfly 32 today... Watch out for SWE 11
> 
> //Mr W


Nice, soon SWE11 Opium 39 and SWE11 Dragonfly 32 are making swedish waters unsafe for others 

By the way Paulo, the Anders B you discussed kiel studies with in the beginning of pages 400 was not me.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## bobperry

Congratulations Anders.


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Dragonfly 32*

Thanks guys, I´m really looking forward to picking the boat up at the Quorning boats yard in May. In the mean time, here´s a little video:





DF32 _by multihulls-world_

Best regards,
Mr W


----------



## abrahamx

Way too many hulls.


----------



## JAndersB

*Oceanis 38*

Strange, Beneteau has a couple of pictures of the new Oceanis 38, Greece charter operator has 49 from the outside and 26 from the inside...

Strange with that silly rig - only 16,55 m above water level and 33+30 sqm of sail.

Regards,
Anders

http://www.kiriacoulis.com/sales/BeneteauOceanis38_technical.html


----------



## JAndersB

New boat from Maxi Yachts/Delphia. To be ready at Boot, Dusseldorf 2014.

Single rudder, with main sheet fixed at cockpit table with dedicated winch. Designed by Pelle Pettersson.

Regards,
Anders
http://k170.wip.no/tools/photoalbum/customer/img/6672/667235.jpg


----------



## PCP

*Re: Oceanis 38*



JAndersB said:


> Strange, Beneteau has a couple of pictures of the new Oceanis 38, Greece charter operator has 49 from the outside and 26 from the inside...
> 
> Strange with that silly rig - only 16,55 m above water level and 33+30 sqm of sail.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders
> 
> Oceanis 38





JAndersB said:


> Test sailed the Oceanis 38 in Sweden today. Very light winds, 7-8 knots and really sh..ty sails. Furling main without battens was approximately the size of my sons Optimist-sail
> 
> Anyway, the boat still took off and made appr 5-6 knots high on the wind. The hull is rather high in the rear and release water very nice in these conditions. The same goes for running under engine. Shaft is also replaced with S-drive so engine very quiet and without vibrations.
> 
> Stearing rather heavy though, and wheels small but this was one of the 7 pre-production examples that are shown at boat shows and then evaluated before serial production starts in november.
> 
> The hull looks really nice but as Paulo, myself and others have said before, the rig, blocks, sheeting etc. needs refinement for active and nice sailing experience.* I spoke in lenght with the swedish journalist representative in the European Yacht Jury. He had test sailed the boat this morning and he also thought it was really easy driven and very innovative. He agreed that Beneteau could partly replace the First line with this hull with a better rig.*
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


You are talking about 7/8k true wind, say 10/11K apparent doing 5/6K at 45º to the wind?

Regarding making a performance version it is not that simple. The boat has not much ballast (1790kg for 6340kg with a draft of about 2.00) and even if it has lots of hull stability with that big beam (3.99) for going upwind fast with an hard sea, more ballast would be needed. For having more ballast all the structure of the hull would have to be reinforced. Yes it would be possible but it would make for a much more expensive boat (with a bigger mast and bigger sails, better hardware, bigger winches). Besides that arch would have to go to give place to a proper travel. Benetau will not make it. It is not good business and it would be a boat hard to sell...for the price.

Yes, nice hull, but the boat is what it is, an Oceanis, made to be cheap and sail well in most circumstances (and that's not an easy thing) not a performance boat.

Regarding the outside I like some things and hate other, between them the big arch and the fat side of the boat (big freeboard) but I do like the interior in the version loft. That is just great for a couple. What a space for a 38ft.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New Delphia*



JAndersB said:


> New boat from Maxi Yachts/Delphia. To be ready at Boot, Dusseldorf 2014.
> 
> Single rudder, with main sheet fixed at cockpit table with dedicated winch. Designed by Pelle Pettersson.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders
> http://k170.wip.no/tools/photoalbum/customer/img/6672/667235.jpg


That looks like a fantastic boat: more photos please, I cannot find them on the net.

It seems that when Delphia bought Maxi yachts, Pelle Petterson come as part of the deal, or at least his savoir faire. He was working for Maxi yacht on a more sportive boat that never saw the light. Maybe this one is a continuation of that development line that was different and more sportive than any Maxy yacht.

Maybe we are looking to the beginning of a new line of performance yachts on Delphia. It would be great. Delphia has great quality and great prices. In my opinion it only needed above average designs. Maybe that's the case now, with Pelle Petterson working with them.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

*oceanis 38*

Paulo,
Instruments not calibrated but yes, taken into account the ****ty sails, the hull seems very easily driven. Gelin, the journalist, test sailed same morning against the new Allures 39,9 and even if that perhaps is not the fastest on the water, the Oceanis was clearly faster.

Beneteaus First line, along many other yards performance lines, have for a long time had very traditional, unpractical and dull interiors, for my taste. At the same time the more interesting Oceanices has alwys had very unpractical rigs and hardware. Strange, the more unexperience oriented the yachts are, the more difficult they are to sail. So I agree with Gelin, put better rig and deck hardware on this hull and you get something interesting. Not perhaps a Pogo or Opium but pretty close and loaded with crusising gear boats does not plane anyway. Naturally nothing to compete on a race course with but a nice, modern cruiser with similar ballast ratios as many others but a more sexy hull and a remarkable interior. And finally some decent hull windows in the right places...

I found the new Maxi 1150 on seilas.no.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: oceanis 38*



JAndersB said:


> .. So I agree with Gelin, put better rig and deck hardware on this hull and you get something interesting. Not perhaps a Pogo or Opium but pretty close and loaded with crusising gear boats does not plane anyway. Naturally nothing to compete on a race course with but a nice, modern cruiser with similar ballast ratios as many others but a more sexy hull and a remarkable interior. And finally some decent hull windows in the right places...
> 
> ......
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Humm, Oceanis are on the low end of ballast ratio. As I said, with a bigger rig, a boat that would be fast in all conditions except upwind with weather where the ballast ratio is fundamental to give power to the boat to go against waves, specially a fat one like the new 38.

Also a tricky boat to sail (with a bigger rig), with that huge form stability giving power to the boat...but on a gust, with the boat lying down, not much RM to bring it back.

That is not by mistake that the boat has that rig and sail area. A substantially bigger one would increase the possibility of knock down... and the boat with a not famous final stability (low B/D ratio) would not be properly brilliant recovering from one of those figures.

Check it out the B/D ratio in relation with draft from the Pogo or the Opium (same kind of hull) and you will see the difference.

Hanse that is also using that king of hulls has a much more substantial B/D ratio, at least on the 40fter.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Madeleine Sassy*

is making great sailing videos. Have a look:


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: oceanis 38*



PCP said:


> Humm, Oceanis are on the low end of ballast ratio. As I said, with a bigger rig, a boat that would be fast in all conditions except upwind with weather where the ballast ratio is fundamental to give power to the boat to go against waves, specially a fat one like the new 38.
> 
> Also a tricky boat to sail (with a bigger rig), with that huge form stability giving power to the boat...but on a gust, with the boat lying down, not much RM to bring it back.
> 
> That is not by mistake that the boat has that rig and sail area. A substantially bigger one would increase the possibility of knock down... and the boat with a not famous final stability (low B/D ratio) would not be properly brilliant recovering from one of those figures.
> 
> Check it out the B/D ratio in relation with draft from the Pogo or the Opium (same kind of hull) and you will see the difference.
> 
> Hanse that is also using that king of hulls has a much more substantial B/D ratio, at least on the 40fter.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


29% is not that bad comparing to others in that price range, and with additional support from hull beam and shape and control from double rudders. I think it could have a bigger rig. On my old Oceanis 40 I lowered the boom with 20 cm and made new, maximized sails. Did not notice any bigger problems with that, and I sailed the boat in conditions that the typical Oceanis customer do not go out in, except too wide stern for a single rudder. And it had from the start a similar ballast ratio, 1,2 m higher mast, lower draft and narrower beam without chines. And 12 sqm more sail area (and I had even more).

regards
Anders


----------



## Anders B

*Re: Dragonfly 32*



JAndersB said:


> Nice, soon SWE11 Opium 39 and SWE11 Dragonfly 32 are making swedish waters unsafe for others
> 
> By the way Paulo, the Anders B you discussed kiel studies with in the beginning of pages 400 was not me.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


I am the Anders B you discussed keels with 
/ Anders B sailing monohull Hansson 31


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Aspect 40*



Mr W said:


> Now this is really creapy!  I was actually going to post about the B&R 38 a few days ago, but I just haven´t gotten around to post about it yet!
> 
> In the mid 90s this boat was way ahead of it´s time in many perspectives and has some similarities with some of the modern boats discussed here. The guy who owns this boat (which is the only one built) is Jimmy, who also owns Airbender, an Admiralty 30 which I think you posted a video of earlier (also video from hamnen). He bought the B&R for this season and has been upgrading it during the winter.
> 
> This boat is very fast, it weighs only 3,300kg (was actually supposed to weigh 2,600kg), so the Aspect 40 has 33% more weight.
> 
> They were keeping up with the Aspect during this test sail with about 7,5 knots boatspeed upwind. They also did some downwind sailing and they were doing about the same speed as the Aspect, up to 11 knots in these light conditions. I guess it´s fair to say that both boats are fast!
> 
> In the first regatta of the year last weekend, both these boats attended. The Aspect actually beat the B&R with 02h13m18s vs 02h22m24s (not corrected) (http://lss.a.se/bodySidor/04_kappseglingar/lidingoRunt/resultat_2012/resultat_klasser_2012.pdf, see start 6).
> 
> As for being as wide as the JPK (almost), that probably only applies to maximum beam. The B&R is only 2,26m at the waterline:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I think of some more well designed swedish boats, I will try to post about them before you do
> 
> Kind regards,
> Mr W


Earlier in this thread the Swedish Pac-Man boat, which was designed and sold very probably before its time, was discussed. It won recently a big sail competition in Sweden, Hyundai Cup in Nynäshamn near Stockholm, before an Arcona 430 and Aspect 40 which created a heated discussion regarding given handicap . it was though good conditions with a lot of wind for the bigger boats and possible to do the down wind leg with gennaker.

First price a brand new Hyundai I20 car - rather nice.

https://hyundaicup.solidtango.com/

Regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

*Rm 1060*

RM 1060 has been discussed earlier, and also with some remarks that it is not as fast as it looks. Noted that on home page they qoute 4400 kg and in their manual for the boat says 5753 kg lightship and with 1790/2020 for the keels. Big difference but at the same time perhaps more realistic. Or typo?

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Anders*



Anders B said:


> I am the Anders B you discussed keels with
> / Anders B sailing monohull Hansson 31


Nice to have several Anders aboard this thread. Both are great contributors.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Rm 1060*



JAndersB said:


> RM 1060 has been discussed earlier, and also with some remarks that it is not as fast as it looks. Noted that on home page they qoute 4400 kg and in their manual for the boat says 5753 kg lightship and with 1790/2020 for the keels. Big difference but at the same time perhaps more realistic. Or typo?
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


The RM 1060 is a great cruising boat and a fast one. When the boat was announced there were some that were hoping for a boat as fast as a Pogo 10.50 or a boat for winning a Transquadra...They were wrong, this is a fast boat but more heavy and slow than a Pogo 10.50, a more versatile cruiser with a big voyage potential.

Maybe that difference in the keels weight has to do with the twin keel version and the mono keel version?


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Rm 1060*



PCP said:


> The RM 1060 is a great cruising boat and a fast one. When the boat was announced there were some that were hoping for a boat as fast as a Pogo 10.50 or a boat for winning a Transquadra...They were wrong, this is a fast boat but more heavy and slow than a Pogo 10.50, a more versatile cruiser with a big voyage potential.
> 
> Maybe that difference in the keels weight has to do with the twin keel version and the mono keel version?


Yes, that is correct regarding keels but total weight 5730 versus 4400 kg??

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*The weight of a sailboat*

is a very complicated affair. First you have the weight calculated by the boat designer that is very rarely the weight of boat, specially if it is a production boat. Manufacturers have normally a long experience in building and don't follow strictly the designers scantlings if they consider them to be lower than their own demands. I am not making up this was said to me to a director of a main yacht builder.

I remember a case with a Mach Bavaria 42 regarding keels (one fell off). They never had problems with keels but the Match line was a new one, a more sportive one and they followed the designer specifications and it went wrong.

That difference in weight can be the difference between the designer weight calculation and the weight of the real boat.

Regarding the real weight there are also several weights and regarding minimum weight two that make some difference: The weight of boat empty and the weight of the boat in minimum sailing condition.

Maybe the lower weight is the designer's previewed weight and the bigger one the weight of the boat in minimum sailing condition that in the end is the one that matters, that and the one of the max load condition.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Rich guys having fun sailing*

them and the paid big crews LOL


----------



## bobperry

It is NOT complicated.
Either the designer got his weight estimate right or he got it wrong.
SIMPLE!

A good designer will look at three weghts. I know. I do this.

Weight one will be the weight "out of the box" or as the boat is delivered with no gear and no liquids aboard.

Weight two will be ( in my office) the weight of the boat in an average loaded condition, i.e. as you might find it any given weekend during the sailing season. This will include some gear, some crews affects, full sail inventory and some liquids.

Weight three will be the loaded condition, i.e. full crew weight with their gear, full tanks and full food and beverages, the way you might find the boat ready for a three week cruise.

I choose to design the boat to weight two, the typical way you will find the boat duruing the sailing season. I call this the "displacement". For me it seems representative and accurate.

Not hard. 
Not complicated.
Common sense.


----------



## JAndersB

In their ship manual they qoute 5730 kg leg'e (lightship), on the web 4400 kg and now in brochure 4600 kg.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## bobperry

"Lightship" is only useful to the designer and builder to check and see if their target weights are on. The final displ will vary with each owner and the gear he carries. The builder can only guess at that. You would have to get actual freeboards and a Pounds per inch immers ( or Euro equiv) to figure out the final displ. If you gave freeboards to the designer he could give you a very accurate displ.


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> In their ship manual they qoute 5730 kg leg'e (lightship), on the web 4400 kg and now in brochure 4600 kg.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


In what language? I bet it is a translation error and that is the Minimum sailing condition, that is the one that makes sense to be on a Ship Manual.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> It is NOT complicated.
> Either the designer got his weight estimate right or he got it wrong.
> SIMPLE!
> 
> A good designer will look at three weghts. I know. I do this.
> 
> Weight one will be the weight "out of the box" or as the boat is delivered with no gear and no liquids aboard.
> 
> Weight two will be ( in my office) the weight of the boat in an average loaded condition, i.e. as you might find it any given weekend during the sailing season. This will include some gear, some crews affects, full sail inventory and some liquids.
> 
> Weight three will be the loaded condition, i.e. full crew weight with their gear, full tanks and full food and beverages, the way you might find the boat ready for a three week cruise.
> 
> I choose to design the boat to weight two, the typical way you will find the boat duruing the sailing season. I call this the "displacement". For me it seems representative and accurate.
> 
> Not hard.
> Not complicated.
> Common sense.


You misunderstood what I said. What is complicated is not the different basic weights of a boat but to know to what weight the builder is referring when they give the boat displacement (they don't say what type of weight they are talking about). As Anders pointed out regarding the RM 1060 that is quite common several weights being given by the same builder in different occasions. With the Bavaria 36 (2003 model) they started given 4.600kg then 5.600kg and in some cases 6000kg.



bobperry said:


> "Lightship" is only useful to the designer and builder to check and see if their target weights are on. The final displ will vary with each owner and the gear he carries. The builder can only guess at that. You would have to get actual freeboards and a Pounds per inch immers ( or Euro equiv) to figure out the final displ. If you gave freeboards to the designer he could give you a very accurate displ.


Given all these confusions and since weight is an important promotional advertiser and Brands are interested in given to the public the lowest possible weight the RCD stipulated a standardized type of weight that is called Minimum sailing condition (MSC) that should be measured the same way in all boats, including the same percentage of fuel and water, sails,oil and everything the boat needs to sail.

The problem is that even if the correct MSC as the MLD are on the certification papers the builder is not obliged to give the MsC has the weight of the boat on the promotional papers and many refer the lightship condition or even the designer estimated weight.

That's what I mean with complicated, not the different weights but to know of what weight they are talking about.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> In what language? I bet it is a translation error and that is the Minimum sailing condition, that is the one that makes sense to be on a Ship Manual.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The manual was in french and it said as I wrote xxxx kg leg'e which google translate to lightship.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I think in many cases they just don't know.

I deal with this all the time. I have written reviews of other designs for 35 years in SAILING magazine. I am finding, especially with Euro boats that I may get as many as three different displacements in one promo package. Today I did my reviews. All three design are built in Europe. All three list a "lightship" displ. This is useless. The real boat will never weight that. But it's in the builder's best interest to promote a lighter boat, all the numkbers look better. So people like you and me are left to guess what the real, equipped and ready to sail boat truly weighs. As I said the only way to find out is to work backwards from freeboards providing the designer will be honest with you and provide you with the data. Most designers will. We want to know.

I think in some cases the builder makes changes to the design specs that add weight. The designer is not always informed of these changes. He finds out later. On a custom project we try to weigh the boat at various stages of construction. This is not always practical with big boats. On a project like FRANCIS LEE, the SLIVER, we have been weighing the boat as we go. But we won't know until the boat is sailing what the real world weight will be. We do know we are very close to the estimated weight study.

I appreciate you explaining this to me but I have been doing it professionally for the past 45 years. I think I have a pretty good handle on it by now. Promoting bogus boat weights does no one any good.


----------



## blt2ski

THe new Jeanneau SF3600 is in the water, not sure if it has sailed as of yet, and have seen some new models graphics of the 64'?!?!?!?! boat coming out.....now I need to go back and remember what length the new boats.....oh well, life goes on!

Marty


----------



## JomsViking

New Luffe 3.6: Selvstyrer og kortplotter styres fra rorpind på ny Luffe 3.6 - minbaad.dk

And

- LUFFE YACHTS -

Saw her in real life, she's stunning and should sail like a dream as the other Luffe's do.
And even better craftmanship than Najad, HR, Malö etc.


----------



## olianta

I was in Kolding port last weekend and saw it live. She looked much fatter than all other Luffe boats may be because she she has very small wetted surface with high boards to gain good standing height inside. Craftmanship like you said - to the best. I got in love with the tiller. I am planning to have a test sail at the end of the month of both Luffe 37.09 and the new Luffe 3.6 to get the difference in sailing. Otherwise inside the difference is obvious.
Rumen


----------



## HMoll

PCP said:


> You misunderstood what I said. What is complicated is not the different basic weights of a boat but to know to what weight the builder is referring when they give the boat displacement (they don't say what type of weight they are talking about). As Anders pointed out regarding the RM 1060 that is quite common several weights being given by the same builder in different occasions. With the Bavaria 36 (2003 model) they started given 4.600kg then 5.600kg and in some cases 6000kg.
> 
> Given all these confusions and since weight is an important promotional advertiser and Brands are interested in given to the public the lowest possible weight the RCD stipulated a standardized type of weight that is called Minimum sailing condition (MSC) that should be measured the same way in all boats, including the same percentage of fuel and water, sails,oil and everything the boat needs to sail.
> 
> The problem is that even if the correct MSC as the MLD are on the certification papers the builder is not obliged to give the MsC has the weight of the boat on the promotional papers and many refer the lightship condition or even the designer estimated weight.
> 
> That's what I mean with complicated, not the different weights but to know of what weight they are talking about.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Can we start a "not complicated" short discussion of using B/D as an indicator of stability, to get THAT out of the way once and for all as well?


----------



## Faster

JomsViking said:


> New Luffe 3.6: Selvstyrer og kortplotter styres fra rorpind på ny Luffe 3.6 - minbaad.dk
> 
> And
> 
> - LUFFE YACHTS -
> 
> Saw her in real life, she's stunning and should sail like a dream as the other Luffe's do.
> And even better craftmanship than Najad, HR, Malö etc.


I've been lusting after the one Luffe boat in Vancouver for quite a while... this one looks great too.


----------



## bobperry

Moll:
I don't think you can uncomplicate that subject. Too many variables involved. B/D is not very important. What is important is location of VCG and the resultant righting arm. A boat with deep draft and a low B/D may in fact be a stiffer boat than a boat with shoal draft and a high B/D. Variables.


----------



## JomsViking

Faster said:


> I've been lusting after the one Luffe boat in Vancouver for quite a while... this one looks great too.


Used to race on a Luffe 37'er and lusted for one of those, but....


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> Can we start a "not complicated" short discussion of using B/D as an indicator of stability, to get THAT out of the way once and for all as well?


B/D is only an indicator if a boat has the same draft, the same kind of keel and the same hull form stability (same type of hull with a similar beam). That was generically the case with the new Oceanis 38 if compared for instance with a Pogo 10.50, even if the Pogo is even beamier considering that it is a smaller boat. However the Pogo has not only more draft but a considerably bigger B/D ratio and therefore is a more stiff boat. On these boats with huge form stability that will be more noticeably on the conditions I have referred.



PCP said:


> Humm, Oceanis are on the low end of ballast ratio. As I said, with a bigger rig, a boat that would be fast in all conditions except upwind with weather where the ballast ratio is fundamental to give power to the boat to go against waves, specially a fat one like the new 38.
> 
> ..


Back on this thread that subject was discussed at length as well has the importance of draft and type of keel, hull form stability to give a proper meaning to the B/D ratio.


----------



## PCP

*Luffe 36.6*



JomsViking said:


> Used to race on a Luffe 37'er and lusted for one of those, but....


That is a beautiful boat with a hull more modern than the old good 37. I have to say that after having visited the shipyard and had the pleasure to test sail the first 40.04 with Oluf Jørgensen in strong winds I am a fan. You can see the passion and love that Oluf puts in all his boats.

Of course the boat is very narrow (by modern standards) and that means sailing almost all the time with a considerable heel. That can be fun but also a bit more complicated while cruising, for instance while cooking. Wives tend also to hate heel...so that is a disadvantage but I bet that boat knives through the waves at least as well as all other Luffe. Another disadvantage in what regards cruising is that the 36.6 will have the interior space of a fat 33 or 34ft, I mean more mainstream performance cruisers like the Arcona.

But a Luffe is a boat that will withstand very well the passage of time (classical lines) and not many will grow old with the same dignity. I would only change that transom that looks dated, I mean not the hull but the way it is designed (closed transom looking like a GS from some years ago). Maybe that has to do with the very traditional kind of clients that are faithful to Luffe?

Some pictures and specifications:

- LUFFE YACHTS -















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

olianta said:


> I was in Kolding port last weekend and saw it live. She looked much fatter than all other Luffe boats may be because she she has very small wetted surface with high boards to gain good standing height inside. Craftmanship like you said - to the best. I got in love with the tiller. I am planning to have a test sail at the end of the month of both Luffe 37.09 and the new Luffe 3.6 to get the difference in sailing. Otherwise inside the difference is obvious.
> Rumen


Rumen, keep us posted about that please and tell us why the boat seems not to have a traveler.

Oluf used to do that on less sportive boats (Luffe 43DS) but this seems to be a sportive boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## HMoll

bobperry said:


> Moll:
> I don't think you can uncomplicate that subject. Too many variables involved. B/D is not very important. What is important is location of VCG and the resultant righting arm. A boat with deep draft and a low B/D may in fact be a stiffer boat than a boat with shoal draft and a high B/D. Variables.


Thanks! Exactly what I wanted to hear!!!


----------



## PCP

*NH30 Fun*

I believe I had already talked about this interesting inexpensive fast daysailer/racer designed by Eugeniusz Ginter and made in Poland:





Sailing Yacht NH Fun 30 - Nautiner Yachts

I saw the boat in Dusseldorf and it looked really nice. Now it has been tested by the guys from Yacht.de and they were impressed with the performance and price even if they find that the boat lacks a bit of fine tuning.

*MOVIE:*

NH Fun 30: Günstiger Daysailer aus Polen - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


----------



## PCP

*America's cup Finals: David is beating Goliath.*

2 - 0 for NZ

The first and second races replay:






You can see live the 3 and 4 here in about a bit more than 2 hours:


----------



## Faster

A bit angular looking, isn't it? (The NH Fun) Looks like a fun () ride, though. Other than the storage side, the 'cruising couches' are a nice solution to most race boats' lack of backrests.


----------



## PCP

*Americas'cup*

If you don't want to see the full replay of races 1 and 2 but a short review look here:






and if you want to know why the NZ had won the two races, a specialist tells you why (French). If you cannot understand French that's simple: The NZ team outsailed Oracle. The main errors are analyzed and even not understanding the language, the images talk by themselves. The two boats are very close in performance.






Next race starts in 30 minutes. Above there is a link for direct transmission.


----------



## blt2ski

If I can get my photo host page to work, I have two pics of the sf3600 sailing today!........

Marty

















finally worked......maybe..........


----------



## blt2ski

Jeanneau Owners Network - Jeanneau Owners News

If one goes to that link thru the end of sept 2013, you can see some pics of what the new 64' Jeanneau should look like. Apparently they will have two deck options. One more cruisy, the other more of a performance race option with a walk thru transom vs a garage for a dinghy. Also an option for a carbon mast etc too. Now if they would do something like this for the smaller boats.....
Marty


----------



## PCP

*Sf 3600*



blt2ski said:


> If I can get my photo host page to work, I have two pics of the sf3600 sailing today!........
> 
> Marty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> finally worked......maybe..........


Great looking boat....and it seems that they have opted by a single tiller (some images showed 2 tillers).

About the interior is where I am not so happy











Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Interior at the moment does not look that great. 

I believe on the cockpit, I am seeing maybe three options. Single and dual tillers, along with dual wheels, depending upon if you are planning to SH, DH or crew sail/race the boat. THis may be setup for crew, hence the single tiller?!?!?!?!?!?


Marty


----------



## PCP

*America's cup*

What a race!!!!! The ones that say that this is not a great spectacle and great sailing don't like racing for sure.

One more to NZ: 3-0 now. The Kiwis even with a penalty (that seemed disputable to me) recovered to an amazing win. Another big Oracle error allowed NZ to pass them and take the lead.

The boats seem very even, Oracle slightly fast downwind and NZ slightly fast upwind.

I cannot wait for the 4th race (almost mid night here in Greece).


----------



## blt2ski

SO what time is it there. 2 pm a few miles north in the same time zone!


----------



## PCP

*America's cup*

Another great race...and this time Oracle won. 3-1. As I had said the boats are very evenly matched, this is true match racing....at 40K

I guess these boats are going to become popular. How can they not? They offer incredible racing and bring sailing to another dimension.


----------



## blt2ski

stern view, so hull #1 does have two tillers...........


----------



## Irunbird

Paolo- I'm wondering about how well the Ovni's/Allure's/Boreal's (not necessarily in that order) might handle stormier conditions than say > 40 kts tws. I know that's a bit specific, but there's not much out there in the way of information or experience, even for the Ovni's- which are the oldest of the 3 makes. This may boil down to speculation, but until we fly over to either the UK or France to test sail one of these, that's ok. Do you (or does anyone) have any idea?


----------



## blt2ski

Ovni-Club : Alubat sailboats Ovni yachts Owners Association fr

Found the oveni owners forum/webpage in less than 30 secs googling....I would imagine that the other boats have similar web pages to ask questions of actual owners.

Marty


----------



## Irunbird

Thanks, Marty- I searched the forum several months ago (not wanting to really become a member), but came up with zilch. I was specifically wondering about Paulo's ideas on the matter, since it's a bit about both two vs one rudder and centerboard vs traditional keel, and would prefer the opinion of someone who I think has quite a bit of experience (if not practical sailing experience, at least the theory behind it) to help me answer the question(s). I'm sure Paulo will raise more, but I think many of the Ovni owners have probably limited experience dealing with storm conditions, so this may boil down to theory-based opinion (which is ok- beggars can't be choosers). I don't want to take away from this thread, though-- but these really are interesting sailboats.. at least to me.

Ray


----------



## PCP

*Sun Fast 3600*



blt2ski said:


> stern view, so hull #1 does have two tillers...........


Yes, you are right. It seemed it had only one on the picture you have posted previously.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*French aluminum centerboarders*



Irunbird said:


> Paolo- I'm wondering about how well the Ovni's/Allure's/Boreal's (not necessarily in that order) might handle stormier conditions than say > 40 kts tws. I know that's a bit specific, but there's not much out there in the way of information or experience, even for the Ovni's- which are the oldest of the 3 makes. This may boil down to speculation, but until we fly over to either the UK or France to test sail one of these, that's ok. Do you (or does anyone) have any idea?


Welcome to the thread!

I have an idea LOL. Aluminiun French centerboarders were born as voyage boats and a voyage boat sooner or later will get bad weather. Yes, all of them can take bad weather and many have endured storms.

May I recall you that one of the most famous voyagers, Jimmy Cornell after several circumnavigations with different types of boats had choose as is final perfect voyage boat a French aluminium centerboarder? A OVNI 435. Now Cornell is even more impressed with Allures that in my opinion are a step ahead of traditional OVNI even if OVNI has now a different kind of centerboard that I know not well but looks promising.






That does not mean that this type of boat is the only suited to voyage but certainly it is one of them and the one favored by the French that have a huge variety of boats to choose.

Here you have a movie of one enduring 70K at port in the Arctic (I would hate to have my boat on those conditions) and some sailing with heavy wind even if not in storm conditions.
















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Experience and OVNI owners:*



Irunbird said:


> ... but I think many of the Ovni owners have probably limited experience dealing with storm conditions, so this may boil down to theory-based opinion (which is ok- beggars can't be choosers). I don't want to take away from this thread, though-- but these really are interesting sailboats.. at least to me.
> 
> Ray


Ray, I would say that comparing experience in bad weather between owners of OVNIS and owners of any other type of boats the chances are that the owners of OVNIS have more experience just because they have bought a voyage boat to voyage and when you voyage a lot sooner or later you will get bad weather. Once I drank some bears with a OVNI owner at the Paris boat show. It turns out that the guy had circumnavigated 3 times with the same boat....Do you see what I mean? I am sure he had got its share of bad weather.

Here you have the OVNI forum and even if in French I guess it will be of some use to you:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Experience and OVNI owners:*



Irunbird said:


> ... but I think many of the Ovni owners have probably limited experience dealing with storm conditions, so this may boil down to theory-based opinion (which is ok- beggars can't be choosers). I don't want to take away from this thread, though-- but these really are interesting sailboats.. at least to me.
> 
> Ray


Ray, I would say that comparing experience in bad weather between owners of OVNIS and owners of any other type of boats the chances are that the owners of OVNIS have more experience just because they have bought a voyage boat to voyage and when you voyage a lot, sooner or later, you will get bad weather. Once I drank some bears with a OVNI owner at the Paris boat show. It turns out that the guy had circumnavigated 3 times with the same boat....Do you see what I mean? I am sure he had got its share of bad weather.

Here you have the OVNI forum and even if in French I guess it will be of some use to you:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*America's cup*

The full replay of races 3 and 4:






and an analyse of the 3th and 4th regattas:


----------



## PCP

*Youth America's cup*

If the results of the Youth America's cup can give an idea of the youth sailing potential in what regards Match racing and sailing America's cup boats, than NZ wins hands down. First and second after the 7 races with Portugal in third at only one point of the second NZ team, being the first of the non sponsored (by the main teams).


----------



## Irunbird

*Re: French aluminum centerboarders*

Exactly what I was looking for- thank you, Paolo!


----------



## olianta

JomsViking said:


> Used to race on a Luffe 37'er and lusted for one of those, but....


What do you meant by that BUT......?
I will be test sailing a Luffe 37.09 and 3.6 on September 28-29. On september 30 I will test the Dragondly 28 charter boat (it is available for tests only on Mondays). So far I am doing just coastal sailing. I think the Black Sea (where I sail) is similar to the Baltic in terms of waves but generally not so windy and lack of islands. The only positive thing apart from the possibility for all year round sailing, is that draft is not a big issue in most of the places along the western coast. But I cannot make my mind whether to opt for a Luffe 37.09 or a Dragonfly 28. Both shipyards gave me similar price offers. Luffe is on my heart while Dragonfly tickles my wish for something different. I am sure that by its higher speed and beaching abilities it will make a more versatile boat for coastal sailing. That's why I wil test sail them both in two consequtive days in order to make a choice. But I guess it will not be an easy one. I should mention that 100% I sail single handed with my wife or occasional friend as a guest during the summer season.
I apologise that this post is more enquiring than enlightening and could be qualified as off topic.
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Luffe 36.6/Dragonfly 28*

Rumen, those are two very different boats and I would be very interested in knowing your impressions.

The Dragonfly is a much faster boat but that do not mean a more pleasurable boat (or the opposite). You will find that in what regards cruising the Luffe is a much bigger boat, with more interior space, more comfort and a bigger autonomy. If you want to sail more than a week without being in a spartan way, the Luffe would be the "normal" choice. If you are looking mostly for daysailng or weekend cruising than the Dragonfly 28 will be a lot of fun.

If you want to cruise more extensively you would have to look at a Dragonfly 32 or a 35.

Regarding the Luffe don't hesitate in buying the new 36.6 instead of the 37. I have no doubt it is a better boat and in what regards value, the 37 will lose value rapidly now that there is a new model.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Volvo Ocean race: 40 years of history*

a new short movie with great images:






and the older and bigger one (without the last edition):


----------



## olianta

Thanks Paulo! Yes, I am much more inclined to pay a price per boat and not per knot. Otherwise I should end in motor boat. I think the Luffe offers 4 basic basic advantages: 1. Traditional looking boat; 2. Excellent monohull sailing including including and good pointing; 3. Quality craftsmanship outside and inside that you can also match to your taste and 4. Fair price (not cheap but not so much Scandinavian expensive). The disadvantages are related only to the narrow beam, which I could live with.

On the other hand Quorning boats are doing great and I predict (and wish) they will be more fashionable in the near future. I visited the yard and was impressed by their small yard efficiency. They make one 28 every 10 days and one 32 every 15 days. Also their responsiveness and commercial behaviour is more adequate. On the other side as you have postednin the past Luffe is more custom made boat and I am sure they cannot build a Luffe 37 (the smallest model) in 20 days (if your measure time by foot). But When I asked why the new Luffe 3.6 has abandoned the low boards of previous models (I think the slightly wider beam does not ruin so much the image), the response was that it was made to meet then needs of the German customers who are taller and need standing height in all boat premises. This means that the boat was designed according to more to the customers' taste and not to Oluf's taste which I respect more. And the base price of the 3.6 is 50k EUR more than the 37.09. (Ex VAT).
Rumen


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

It looks unlike the 3200, that the tillers are on the floor of the 3600 vs back of transom for the 3200. SO the 2nd tiller probably falls lower on the floor area, hence why it was out of view.

Marty


----------



## JomsViking

But... The wife says no  



olianta said:


> What do you meant by that BUT......?
> I will be test sailing a Luffe 37.09 and 3.6 on September 28-29. On september 30 I will test the Dragondly 28 charter boat (it is available for tests only on Mondays). So far I am doing just coastal sailing. I think the Black Sea (where I sail) is similar to the Baltic in terms of waves but generally not so windy and lack of islands. The only positive thing apart from the possibility for all year round sailing, is that draft is not a big issue in most of the places along the western coast. But I cannot make my mind whether to opt for a Luffe 37.09 or a Dragonfly 28. Both shipyards gave me similar price offers. Luffe is on my heart while Dragonfly tickles my wish for something different. I am sure that by its higher speed and beaching abilities it will make a more versatile boat for coastal sailing. That's why I wil test sail them both in two consequtive days in order to make a choice. But I guess it will not be an easy one. I should mention that 100% I sail single handed with my wife or occasional friend as a guest during the summer season.
> I apologise that this post is more enquiring than enlightening and could be qualified as off topic.
> Rumen


----------



## JomsViking

If you want your Family to keep sailing you should heed Paulo's advice and choose a larger Dragonfly or the Luffe.

I'm mad about the Dragonfly's as well, but... 

I disagree with the Price on the 37, though I believe there's too many that likes them, not just for the nostalgia..



olianta said:


> Thanks Paulo! Yes, I am much more inclined to pay a price per boat and not per knot. Otherwise I should end in motor boat. I think the Luffe offers 4 basic basic advantages: 1. Traditional looking boat; 2. Excellent monohull sailing including including and good pointing; 3. Quality craftsmanship outside and inside that you can also match to your taste and 4. Fair price (not cheap but not so much Scandinavian expensive). The disadvantages are related only to the narrow beam, which I could live with.
> 
> On the other hand Quorning boats are doing great and I predict (and wish) they will be more fashionable in the near future. I visited the yard and was impressed by their small yard efficiency. They make one 28 every 10 days and one 32 every 15 days. Also their responsiveness and commercial behaviour is more adequate. On the other side as you have postednin the past Luffe is more custom made boat and I am sure they cannot build a Luffe 37 (the smallest model) in 20 days (if your measure time by foot). But When I asked why the new Luffe 3.6 has abandoned the low boards of previous models (I think the slightly wider beam does not ruin so much the image), the response was that it was made to meet then needs of the German customers who are taller and need standing height in all boat premises. This means that the boat was designed according to more to the customers' taste and not to Oluf's taste which I respect more. And the base price of the 3.6 is 50k EUR more than the 37.09. (Ex VAT).
> Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Some new videos from Capado (Fox 10.20) on Portuguese lands.*


----------



## JAndersB

*interesting perfromance cruiser*

Hi all,
having gone through the last couple of hundred pages here and among other threads especially the lenghty discussion regarding stiffness and suitability of boats like First 40 and J122 for cruising, in the Blue Jacket-40 thread, I would like to continue that suitability question here. Might be wrong thread, difficult to evaluate.

Having test sailed many boats this autumn (including trimarans), for fun and education, and having owned a Beneteau 36cc, Dufour 385, Elan 333, Olsen 38 pilot saloon, Benetau Oceanis 40, Dehler 43 CWS and Wauquiez Opium 39 (now) I find this question interesting.

The back ground of a typical customer, at least up here. This size class I think is the mostly sold today in the Nordic countries:

Someone interested in a boat around 35-38 foot (absolutely not over 12 m), absolutely under 3,99 m wide, preferably 3,75 m. Depth not bigger than 2,1m, preferably 1,8m. For a couple with occasional quests. For cruising all summer half year weekends and 2-3 months each summer. In the near future perhaps 4-5 months per summer. No immediate plans for ocean crossing. Much time spent at anchor but harbours always pretty close so 4-10 days between refilling of water and food. Sailing experience very important - thrill seekers, trimmers, want to overtake other boats. Going upwind no problem, sometimes even most rewarding, engine only used for in and out of anchorages and harbours. Also to be able to bring the toys -bikes, inlines, kites etc. Single rudder would help mooring in many cases. Wheel stearing for better autopilot implemention without heavy rudder feeling.

In the BJ40-thread there where many that equalled crusing with living aboard and having to be self-sufficient for months, which in this scenario is not the case. Furthermore, the holding tank problem was very fundamental to many in that thread. Sweden will forbid dumping the holding thank in the water from 2015. Personally I think this is shooting flies with cannons and I do not think the tousands of boats returning every sunday evening to the their home harbours during some few summer months will spend hours queing for an often very difficult accessible pumping out station before docking. Especially not single handed sailors so my personal take is that a holding thank of 60 l, being emptied off shore will be the norm also in the future up here. A removable porta potti is a good secondary solution. Can be emptied with dingy, either in harbour toilets or outside anchorages. Max € 230 000-250 000, preferably € 200 000.

So what are your takes for the suitable boat? J122 and First 40 too big. Dehler 38 etc. rather heavy. Archambault A35 too small? - just to mention some. RM1060 even if rather wide?

I guess the question boils down to how small and especially light can you go, for nice sailing, and still have the storage and living space needed? And will the load destroy the sacrifications made by buying the light perfromance oriented boat?

Regards,
Anders


----------



## Edward3

Hard to go wrong with any of the boats you speak of. J/122 very capable.
The Opium has to be everyone's dream boat for short handed.
The Olsen 38 Pilot Saloon must not be from the same Santa Cruz ULDB Olson???


----------



## JAndersB

Edward3 said:


> Hard to go wrong with any of the boats you speak of. J/122 very capable.
> The Opium has to be everyone's dream boat for short handed.
> The Olsen 38 Pilot Saloon must not be from the same Santa Cruz ULDB Olson???


J/122 looks nice but too long and too deep

Opium 39 lovely but too wide as per above. And with 3 double cabins rather big.

Olsen 38 was a very nice boat, mad by Olsen Yacht in Denmark. Basically it should qualify in this thread because up till today I have not been able to find an as good performance deck saloon in the 35-39 feet bracket by far. Only Luffe 43 DS is close (and a copy in my mind). And I have checked many. Mine this was destroyed by fire in 2007, hence the Oceanis 40 in a hurry. Only 12 has been made and the latest 2007 I think. Very nice sailors cockpit, hardly wisible deck saloon, wacuum glued teak deck, lots of smart finesses, like a performance version of the Southerly. They can still make them bout out of the mentioned budget.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> J/122 looks nice but too long and too deep
> 
> Opium 39 lovely but too wide as per above. And with 3 double cabins rather big.
> 
> Olsen 38 was a very nice boat, mad by Olsen Yacht in Denmark. Basically it should qualify in this thread because up till today I have not been able to find an as good performance deck saloon in the 35-39 feet bracket by far. Only Luffe 43 DS is close (and a copy in my mind). And I have checked many. Mine this was destroyed by fire in 2007, hence the Oceanis 40 in a hurry. Only 12 has been made and the latest 2007 I think. Very nice sailors cockpit, hardly wisible deck saloon, wacuum glued teak deck, lots of smart finesses, like a performance version of the Southerly. They can still make them bout out of the mentioned budget.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Funny you have talked about the Luffe 43. I visited the shipyard years ago and I was just interested in that boat, well not in that boat but on a modern version. The Luffe 40.04 was just being lunched and I was waiting for a 43 along the same lines. Oluf had made instead a beautiful new 45 and now it modernized the 37, I guess the next one will be the 43. Things happen more slowly on traditional semi custom boats...I went to visit the shipyard maybe 7 years ago?

Along this discussion about boats we do no have talked much about weight but weight is important since it is multiplied by the to GZ give the total stability of the boat (the surface under the positive part of the RM curve). I was looking for a boat with 7/8T with a very good GZ curve. A very light boat can go fast but will not give the solidity and the motion of a heavier boat. This is true also for more heavier boats. A 40ft HR with 11T will be more steady and easier to sail than a more sportive boat...but then it will not sail well in lighter winds or be fast enough in medium winds or will point higher enough, I mean for my taste.

Regarding your question on a previous post regarding sailing and fuel, I can talk about my experience with the Comet 41 s. Many think that a big fuel tankage is a necessity. I am sailing extensively the boat on Greece, doing an average of 25/30Nm a day and I refueled two days ago: 74 liters on a 150L tank. The last time I put diesel (also half a tank) was a month ago. Most of the diesel is used to charge batteries. On the last 3 months I have recharged the batteries on a marina 3 times, including today. I have a relatively big water tank for a performance boat (400L) and that will last only (without being too careful) 15 days (with two aboard).

So the 150L diesel tank that would look too small for many is enough for a month while the bigger water tank is only good for 15 days.

An advantage of performance boats with a big stability is that they can take rough weather with little sail. Today I sailed on a good force 6/7 and crossed ways with a new 43745 Halberg Rassy. We both were having a great sailing day and the guys from the HR waved a lot to us (and we replied). Both boats were sailing upwind on different taks (I would say I was closer to the wind), they were making probably 7/7.5K and I was making 7.5/8.0. They had a furled genoa (less then mine) and a main on the first reef. I was sailing only with the genoa reefed to the size a bit bigger than a jib.

So, smaller sails make it more manageable but on heavy gusting (that you find often near the shore) lighter boats can have very fast reactions and need a sail to let go fast and that's not very easy with small crews or solo.

I would say I prefer a mid term and that's why I was looking for the Luffe 43 that even if bigger, because it is narrower as about the same weight and overall stability of my boat.

To make it short, if a boat is very light or narrow, I would prefer a bigger boat, if a boat is heavier and has an average beam, than I would take a smaller one (both with about the same weight and interior space). But that, off course, it is just my personal preference and should not be looked as a rule by nobody. There are tastes for all types of boats, even steel, very slow ones (at least with light winds).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*americas'cup*

A new victory for NZ that outsailed Oracle. Again they were ahead and made an error that allowed NZ the victory. 4-1, one to go for the NZ final victory.

Maybe today?


----------



## JAndersB

Thanks Paulo,
I understand your reasoning and choise. Sounds like a nice day on the water. I am writing this from the saloon of the Opium. Tomorrow we will sail out for a week again.

Up here almost all marinas charge a lot more for boats over 12 m and it is very hard to find boxes over 4 m wide. Furthermore we often moore bow to or side to cliffs in the archipelago, which can be a challenge handling wise especially if you get a wind shift during the night. Futhermore there is the question of beeing able to tack and dock the boat single handed. Therefore I put in the limit of 35-38 feet

So what about these (french) racer cruisers at around 35 feet? Archambault A35, JKP 10.80 and so forth. Very light and with modern hulls for easy sailing short handed. Will they be too light and cramped for the described scenario? They seem to take off but I guess in cruising mode that might change rapidly?

Regards,
Anders


----------



## olianta

*Re: interesting perfromance cruiser*



JAndersB said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The back ground of a typical customer, at least up here. This size class I think is the mostly sold today in the Nordic countries:
> Someone interested in a boat around 35-38 foot (absolutely not over 12 m), absolutely under 3,99 m wide, preferably 3,75 m.
> Anders


With this preferable beam how could any of the Luffes fit in this taste trend? Are they bound to become extinct or as you said in a previous post they will count on a fewer remaining nostalgic customers. 
Do you think that the wider beam trend in the recent decades has something to do (apart from the accommodations benefits) with lack of wish to sail to windward instead of motoring? Paulo I would appreciate your input on that. Do majority of cruisers in the Med use their engine instead of beating?

P.S. When I visited both Kolding marinas on that weekend (and also some others) it struck me: 1. 90% were sailboats (unlike in my region, the Black Sea and some parts of the Med I have visited, where motorboats prevail); 2. The average size was even less than the one you indicated (in my region I believe the average counts to 39-43 feet).; 3. I guess the average beam was 3.00 (if I am not mistaken) much less than the coveted one in your opinion. Well, it is also true that in the few marinas I visited in Jurland, Denmark, most of the boats were 10or much more years old,therefore no modern designs were on the float.
Rumen


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Thanks Paulo,
> I understand your reasoning and choise. Sounds like a nice day on the water. I am writing this from the saloon of the Opium. Tomorrow we will sail out for a week again.
> 
> Up here almost all marinas charge a lot more for boats over 12 m and it is very hard to find boxes over 4 m wide. Furthermore we often moore bow to or side to cliffs in the archipelago, which can be a challenge handling wise especially if you get a wind shift during the night. Futhermore there is the question of beeing able to tack and dock the boat single handed. Therefore I put in the limit of 35-38 feet
> 
> So what about these (french) racer cruisers at around 35 feet? Archambault A35, JKP 10.80 and so forth. Very light and with modern hulls for easy sailing short handed. Will they be too light and cramped for the described scenario? They seem to take off but I guess in cruising mode that might change rapidly?
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Regarding JPK I think the boat you should look at is the 38:Beam 3.99m, 5T of weight and about the same ballast (a bit more) and draft of the Opium 39 that weights 1,5T more. That would make for a stiffer boat at least upwind. Besides JPK is an incredible guy, a true sailor with a huge solo experience (racing) that will make the boat the way you want it and can give you a lot of intelligent suggestions. Yes I visited also the shipyard and was fascinated with JPK...with him almost all is possible and not for a lot of money.

Regarding the boats you mention probably the boat I was looking at at the time is a better option for cruising, I mean the JPK 110 that is still in production:

JPK

Beam 3.80m, Draft 2.20m, weight 5450kg, Ballast 2.200kg.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: interesting perfromance cruiser*



olianta said:


> With this preferable beam how could any of the Luffes fit in this taste trend? Are they bound to become extinct or as you said in a previous post they will count on a fewer remaining nostalgic customers.
> Do you think that the wider beam trend in the recent decades has something to do (apart from the accommodations benefits) with lack of wish to sail to windward instead of motoring? Paulo I would appreciate your input on that. Do majority of cruisers in the Med use their engine instead of beating?
> 
> ...


Yes, on the med most of the boats motor upwind and you would not believe how much I can go faster and point higher than the average (the few that take pleasure in beating upwind) sailboat. Somehow I tend to end up sailing upwind most of the time and I like it. I would say that is not a very common taste or preference. With a decent wind I can go at 26º apparent doing 6.5K while most of the mass production cruisers go slower or at the same speed at 35º. On two years of sailing I have yet to find a boat that can out point mine (they are out there but there are not many and most of them are used to racing).

The Luffe or Faubry are not only about pointing but also about the motion in the water. Yes they are more comfortable in hard conditions upwind (if we discount heeling) and if on a big picture I think that boats more balanced in what regards beam like Arcona, GS or mine, offer a better package (mainly in what regards interior space), the love of sailing a nimble boat with a very moderate beam will always have their fans. No I don't think it is a dying species but will never be a boat for the majority. Regarding fast cruising and racing boats like the J122 show that they are as fast or faster than beamier boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

I also think one of the reason for the, by todays standard, extremely narrow hulls of Faurby and Luffe is the simple fact that the boxes are that narrow up here.

I also think that to some extent there is too much negative talk about going to windward with the beamy boats. I also have nothing against beating, in fact I very much prefer it compared to to reaching in the 8-18 knots. And even if I can not reach your angle of attack it is still pretty good and not uncomfortable at all, not even in a seaway of decent magnitude. I can easily outrun all normal cruisers (does sailing interested enough to not motor) and keep for instance a well sailed Dehler 36 behind. A good Comfortina 39 was tough though. Same speed but higher angle.

Regarding JKP 38, it is looking good but draft big and double rudders and tiller steering outside the wish list. Regarding weight that is still a puzzling subject. Hull 10 of the Opiums (mine is 11) was at the Paris show 2010 and have an officially verified weight bill of 5630 kg. Now they qoute 6600 kg. RM1060 qoute 4600 kg for a rather big boat wit a loaded interior while Archambault goute 4400 for the A35 while Dehler is up at 7100 for the 38. Very big differencies in my opinion.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Maxi 11.50*



JAndersB said:


> New boat from Maxi Yachts/Delphia. To be ready at Boot, Dusseldorf 2014.
> 
> Single rudder, with main sheet fixed at cockpit table with dedicated winch. Designed by Pelle Pettersson.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders
> http://k170.wip.no/tools/photoalbum/customer/img/6672/667235.jpg


Maybe I have understood wrongly. Thisis aMaxy yacht, not a Delphia, the first one since Delphia had bought Maxi yachts.The boat looks great, I hope Delphia can contribute for more competitive prices. Maxy yachts went down not because they were not great boats but because their cost was too high. I hope that was the past because this boat looks great.





Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*beam and sailing upwind*



JAndersB said:


> I also think one of the reason for the, by todays standard, extremely narrow hulls of Faurby and Luffe is the simple fact that the boxes are that narrow up here.
> 
> I also think that to some extent there is too much negative talk about going to windward with the beamy boats. I also have nothing against beating, in fact I very much prefer it compared to to reaching in the 8-18 knots. And even if I can not reach your angle of attack it is still pretty good and not uncomfortable at all, not even in a seaway of decent magnitude. I can easily outrun all normal cruisers (does sailing interested enough to not motor) and keep for instance a well sailed Dehler 36 behind. A good Comfortina 39 was tough though. Same speed but higher angle.
> 
> ...
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Anders the Comfortina 39 is a fast boat for a cruiser but I would not call it really a performance cruiser. Let´s say that it is in between a performance cruiser and a luxury cruiser like the HR or Najad.

Beamy boats have not a problem going fast upwind with flat water. It is with harder weather and waves that a slimmer hull can make the difference. With flat water a beamy light boat has a very narrow foot print, as narrow has a narrow boat with the same weight but with waves you have to consider wave drag and that is much bigger on a beamier boat (the wave if big enough will involve almost all hull and then all beam counts has wet surface). A beamier boat will also to carry more sail for the same speed upwind (and it can because it has a lot more hull stability) but that extra power for the same speed imply a passage in power and therefore more uncomfortable motion.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## APP Mode

About NAJAD do you if it is true that this brand is again bankrupt?


----------



## APP Mode

And SIRIUS Yachts announced the new 40ft in Dusseldorf 2014,


----------



## JAndersB

Najad went down together witn new owner Nord-West motoryahts. It took a long time until a real estate developer and a local motor yacht reseller bougt the lot. As saying goes right now there are not any plans to restart Najad.

Maxi is now owned by Delphia so is it a Maxi or Delphia - hm...but carrying the Maxi label,

Yes, I know that the more waves the slower a beamier hull will be. The message I wanted to bring forward was that these beamy boats can be rather nice going upwind in - as Yacht magazine also concluded in their test. And sorry, it was a Comfortina 42 with racing sails and definitively without all the extras I had on board. And it is a rather sharp boat. The Dehler 36 with racing sails and a competent crew, also without all the stuff I had on board and a dingy trailing after me, that I rolled ower did not either had a chance against that boat, as all the other boats doing the 15 NM miles beat that day up Lilla Bält in Denmark. Yes, flat water but also only 8-10 knots of wind.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Najad went down together witn new owner Nord-West motoryahts. It took a long time until a real estate developer and a local motor yacht reseller bougt the lot. As saying goes right now there are not any plans to restart Najad.
> 
> Maxi is now owned by Delphia so is it a Maxi or Delphia - hm...but carrying the Maxi label,
> 
> Yes, I know that the more waves the slower a beamier hull will be. The message I wanted to bring forward was that these beamy boats can be rather nice going upwind in - as Yacht magazine also concluded in their test. And sorry, it was a Comfortina 42 with racing sails and definitively without all the extras I had on board. And it is a rather sharp boat. The Dehler 36 with racing sails and a competent crew, also without all the stuff I had on board and a dingy trailing after me, that I rolled ower did not either had a chance against that boats, as all the other boats doing the 15 NM miles beat that day upp Lilla Bält in Denmark. Yes, flat water but also only 8-10 knots of wind.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Nice discussion and I think in the end we agree.

Yes, beamy fast boats can go very well upwind in flat water and even with waves, even if not so well, because they are powerfull (hull stability + big ballast or big draft) but at at cost of a more uncomfortable motion.

Yesterday on the Corinth Golf, while must boats were motoring against the wind or coming back I was beating upwind with 20/24k wind and 1.5/2m waves on genoa only (sometimes full) making 26º off the wind (apparent) and a speed between 6.3 and 7.3K. In the end I made the 20K to the next port (directly upwind) at a VMG between 4 and 5K. That's the conditions were a narrow boat will have the advantage. Probably a Luffe 40.04 would have been even faster than my boat, certainly a J122 would.

Regarding Maxi and Delphia, I think Maxi will have a great degree of Independence, the same way Grand Soleil has under Bavaria ownership or Dehler under Hanse.

Guys, I have no internet anymore because I am crossing to Italy so I will not be around much.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

*Re: French aluminum centerboarders*



PCP said:


> Welcome to the thread!
> 
> I have an idea LOL. Aluminiun French centerboarders were born as voyage boats and a voyage boat sooner or later will get bad weather. Yes, all of them can take bad weather and many have endured storms.
> 
> May I recall you that one of the most famous voyagers, Jimmy Cornell after several circumnavigations with different types of boats had choose as is final perfect voyage boat a French aluminium centerboarder? A OVNI 435. Now Cornell is even more impressed with Allures that in my opinion are a step ahead of traditional OVNI even if OVNI has now a different kind of centerboard that I know not well but looks promising.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That does not mean that this type of boat is the only suited to voyage but certainly it is one of them and the one favored by the French that have a huge variety of boats to choose.
> 
> Here you have a movie of one enduring 70K at port in the Arctic (I would hate to have my boat on those conditions) and some sailing with heavy wind even if not in storm conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hi Guys,

In Spain and first chance to look at interesting sailboats in 4 weeks. Sorry I will not be able to write a lot about how our new French centerboard Boreal 44 is doing but a quick note. Gurnsey to Brittany on first major sea trial. Bean reach 30 to 35 knots from west 3 knots of current from east. Typical lousy English channel day. Waves standing and breaking 3 to 4 meters just a messy day. RC LOUISE sailed perfectly with one reef in Genoa and one in main. I swear not one pooping a few bits of spray every few hours. We made lunch below in the worst of the weather ate in the cockpit, no sea sickness.

North coast of Spain with trough over Spain and Portugal, Azore high off the coast, Paulo and others know this one lousy crazy weather. 30 plus knots dead down wind, no other way of doing it. Seas 4 meters plus after an hour of 3 to 4 meters. Up the centerboard and just used the main, I have never been able to do that with any cutter rig in my 40 plus years sailing around the globe. We had lunch again in cockpit never once even thought that we would round up while surfing. Speed 6 knots at very top of climb and surfed between 9.2 and 11.2 knots totally under control.

All these French boats handle this way granted some better than other but all well. We think we did the best after talking with many of owners of the other makes, they would agree also. We feel confident in big seas over 5 meter but we will have to wait till we cross the pond later hopefully we don't have to see big seas I'm too old now for that size sea.

Jimmy Cornell we have heard asked for a Boreal and Boreal laughed their ass off at him. I love the French serious sailors.

I'll post more the good and the bad about our new Boreal. Their is not much bad just French culture built into the boat that makes it hard for most non French but again nothing serious.

Cheers

Steve and Tracy.


----------



## JAndersB

*Oceanis 38*

New promotional video from Beneteau:






First magazine review:

First review of the Oceanis 38 » BENETEAU

Regards,
Anders


----------



## Kubota

There is a new Varianta coming up-the 37. She's based on hanse 375 and is to cost less than 80 000€. I cant post links or photos, but you can see the first photo of varianta 37 on Yacht magazin's website. I like the concept of inexpensive, well sailing boat. Hopefully they will eliminate some weak points of older 44(lack of anchor locker, stowage room)... With a few add-ons she could even look good.


----------



## PCP

*Re: French aluminum centerboarders*



hannah2 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> In Spain and first chance to look at interesting sailboats in 4 weeks. Sorry I will not be able to write a lot about how our new French centerboard Boreal 44 is doing but a quick note. Gurnsey to Brittany on first major sea trial. Bean reach 30 to 35 knots from west 3 knots of current from east. Typical lousy English channel day. Waves standing and breaking 3 to 4 meters just a messy day. RC LOUISE sailed perfectly with one reef in Genoa and one in main. I swear not one pooping a few bits of spray every few hours. We made lunch below in the worst of the weather ate in the cockpit, no sea sickness.
> 
> North coast of Spain with trough over Spain and Portugal, Azore high off the coast, Paulo and others know this one lousy crazy weather. 30 plus knots dead down wind, no other way of doing it. Seas 4 meters plus after an hour of 3 to 4 meters. Up the centerboard and just used the main, I have never been able to do that with any cutter rig in my 40 plus years sailing around the globe. We had lunch again in cockpit never once even thought that we would round up while surfing. Speed 6 knots at very top of climb and surfed between 9.2 and 11.2 knots totally under control.
> 
> All these French boats handle this way granted some better than other but all well. We think we did the best after talking with many of owners of the other makes, they would agree also. We feel confident in big seas over 5 meter but we will have to wait till we cross the pond later hopefully we don't have to see big seas I'm too old now for that size sea.
> 
> Jimmy Cornell we have heard asked for a Boreal and Boreal laughed their ass off at him. I love the French serious sailors.
> 
> I'll post more the good and the bad about our new Boreal. Their is not much bad just French culture built into the boat that makes it hard for most non French but again nothing serious.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve and Tracy.


Nice to know that you like your new boat but there is some confusion, the problem is not going downwind with 4 or 5m waves in 30k wind but going upwind on those conditions. But let me tell you that it is not worst than trying to do that on the med in 25K with 2/3 meter steep waves of short period.

Those can create an even nastier motion on the boat and they are so short that sometimes you are down with the first wave when you're hit by the second one that comes over the boat and sweeps it.

We have done it nicely and last week (since Corinth) all we have done is close upwind sailing, many times beaten. All went well until yesterday when a head port that normally Isabel leaves slightly open (protected by the spraywood) let enter in the boat an amazing quantity of water. Isabel opened the head's door and the water come crashing down. The wash basin was full as also the bottom of the boat.

Today we made the passage to the last of the Ionian Islands (Zakhintos) between 30 and 45º, most of the way well over 8K. Wonderful ride. When we came to port we were helped by a French couple in a steel boat. Very nice people, it turned out that they have been living on the boat for the last 25 years and have just finished a circumnavigation. I was complaining that my wife would not want to listen about crossing an ocean and the guy said: "why? It's a lot more difficult to sail here" LOL. Even so my wife was not convinced

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Kubota said:


> There is a new Varianta coming up-the 37. She's based on hanse 375 and is to cost less than 80 000€. I cant post links or photos, but you can see the first photo of varianta 37 on Yacht magazin's website. I like the concept of inexpensive, well sailing boat. Hopefully they will eliminate some weak points of older 44(lack of anchor locker, stowage room)... With a few add-ons she could even look good.


Like the 44, I mean withoust an anchor locker. If I was a young guy I would be very tempted but without an anchor locker?

I could accept a manual winch but no anchor locker? That is crazy and makes it a marina boat and not for the med where you use your anchor even on marinas and ports.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

Hi Paulo,

I hear you, the boat seems to handle well going to weather but no 30 knots and 3 to 4 meter seas yet. Beam is best I can tell you about in lousy seas. I hope over the next 5 years of sailing I don't ever have to sail to weather in over 30 knots and 4 meter seas, I'm sailing to enjoy.

About the downwind stuff. I've sailed down wind for a lot of years in conventional full to full cut away cutter rigs. In those boats and in close seas as I mentioned the problem was always rounding up on the surfing part of the wave. Not over powered but over speed on the down hill and a mast about 18 inched further aft than a sloop rig. We always seemed to pivot at the mast at least it seems that way. With the new boat we have no pivot we never want to round up just a nice sea kindly down wind ride. I could stand behind the helm, NKE on with hands in my pockets and never feel like I was going to get thrown off my feet. 

The boat drives very well through wave when going up wind in normal conditions. We do not seem to get slowed down going through a wave as long as we keep her 45 degrees and not less in 2 to 2.5 seas. That's all we have experienced so far. We have sailed well to windward 32 degrees in calm seas.

When will you be back in Portugal? Send us an email. Thank you for the advice on wonderful Galacia. Great wine and great sea food, I love the fish soup and goose neck Barnicles. I caught a nice Blue fin Tuna in the Bay of Biscay small but at about 4 or 5 kilo more than enough for us.

Cheers

Steve and Tracy


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Oceanis 38*



JAndersB said:


> New promotional video from Beneteau:
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


This is a very interesting video and speaks, quite clearly, to Beneteau's intended market. They start by making the sales pitch to exactly the person who is going to have to approve the purchase - the professional woman who is willing to consider the sailing lifestyle but may have misgivings about her ability to sail and about sacrificing comfort to do so.

Notice that the first half of the video shows the woman singlehanding the boat in "Daysailing" configuration. The experience is shown to be very easy and non-threatening - clearly our professional woman can step right aboard and sail this boat by herself, which is an important consideration as many women might be intimidated by the idea. These images are juxtaposed with shots of the open, comfortable, light-filled interior space, just like a vacation condo on the beach.

When the man finally arrives, in the second half, for "Weekend Cruising", the tone shifts to romantic getaway mode (notice the absence of children - again speaks to the target market). Note that conditions are always tranquil and our couple does not stray too far away from shore. No beating upwind in 30 knots for these customers, just peaceful motorsailing or reaching from romantic spot to romantic spot, unfurling the gennaker with ease.

I predict Beneteau will sell a lot of these boats to exactly these kinds of customers. From my perspective, I think I could easily "sell" my wife on this boat, except that I'd be deceiving her about my own true intentions, for which, alas, the Oceanis 38 is not the right boat. So I probably won't be showing her this video. Perhaps some Vendée Globe highlights would be more appropriate, after which I can be quite sure I'll be going alone.


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Oceanis 38*

Why won't we ever have exhilarating, choppy seas on videos and tests? This video is counterproductive, in my opinion. Now I see what was a potentially interesting boat as a "sissy boat", totally lame, delicate, unfit for a potential "real" ocean situation. If this video shows what Beneteaus are made FOR today, they better come up with some real hardcore stuff soon, and have the build quality behind it.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Oceanis 38*



HMoll said:


> Why won't we ever have exhilarating, choppy seas on videos and tests? This video is counterproductive, in my opinion. Now I see what was a potentially interesting boat as a "sissy boat", totally lame, delicate, unfit for a potential "real" ocean situation. If this video shows what Beneteaus are made FOR today, they better come up with some real hardcore stuff soon, and have the build quality behind it.


HMoll - But clearly you are not in the target market for the Oceanis 38, which is why the advertisement doesn't appeal to you. Based on what you are saying, you would more likely gravitate toward the Beneteau First line of performance cruisers, like the First 35 or First 40. The advertising for those boats would include video footage of the Fastnet Race and the Sydney-Hobart Race, featuring interpid men sailing upwind in 30 knots. 

To be honest, I've seen the marketing videos for the First line and they're very similar to the Oceanis video, only with a bit more realistic sailing in them. But people like us are not influenced by videos, so Beneteau doesn't bother.

Best,


----------



## smackdaddy

Wow Paulo!!!! Over 1 million views on this thread!! Freakin' awesome!

Congrats on one of the best threads on the internet.


----------



## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> Wow Paulo!!!! Over 1 million views on this thread!! Freakin' awesome!
> 
> Congrats on one of the best threads on the internet.


What he said. This is my must read thread on Sailnet.


----------



## JAndersB

*Oceanis 38*

My wife likes going upwind - and still picked the Oceanis 38 as the boat of the show in the in water boat show at Hallberg-Rassy in August  And I guess the video did not harm that picture in any way.

We have discussed the boat before and I still think we should look at this boat with open eyes. Despite very small sail area and bad sails the boat sailed well when I made a brief test in light winds. The same noted Seil-magazine from Norway in their short review of exactly the same boat, as did Swedish magazine testers.

I think hull is interesting, B/D-ratio very similar to many other contemporary designs today, including many of the new, beamy twin-rudder, chined French boats and the Elans, not to mention the other less expensive boats from Bavaria, Hanse etc.

Small rig with bad deckware can rather easy be replaced and retweaked with main sail traveller in cockpit etc. and the arc is perfect for stowing cockpit canopy against, a la Malö-style. At least up here the canopy is a constant problem as beeing too complicated to handle and stove.

Interior wonderful in our opinion. Can be tewaked for your own style. I have for instance through 7 different boats now tried to find a decent saloon layout for 3 persons to watch TV in in comfort but failed so far. Elan 333 from 2003 leading in that deparment still.

And my old Oceanis 40 was as good going to weather, in 25-30 knots of wind and the similar short waves of perhaps 1,5 m as Paulo mentioned from the med, as my previous boat, a very different Dehler 43 CWS. When I test sailed the RM1200 in 2009 it was much worse than the Oceanis. Yes, I know RM 1200 is not a wave piercer either but still twice the price. With twin rudders now on the Oceanis 38 perhaps also the broaching-problem when ower pressed is solved to a big extent.

I totally agree with Curt Gelin, the Swedish memeber in the European yacht Jury: "Beneteau has something nice here - new rig and better hardware and it could be really interesting."

Regards,
Anders


----------



## opc11

Ovni in Receivershiip??

I visited the ovni owners forum via the link posted a few pages back. Apparently they are in receivership according to this thread: The site Alubat in receivership: Rundown - Water Forum UFO Club

Very sad news. I believe they also mentioned the Alubat shipyard is also in financial trouble.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Oceanis 38*



JAndersB said:


> My wife likes going upwind - and still picked the Oceanis 38 as the boat of the show in the in water boat show at Hallberg-Rassy in August  And I guess the video did not harm that picture in any way.
> 
> We have discussed the boat before and I still think we should look at this boat with open eyes. Despite very small sail area and bad sails the boat sailed well when I made a brief test in light winds. The same noted Seil-magazine from Norway in their short review of exactly the same boat, as did Swedish magazine testers.
> 
> I think hull is interesting, B/D-ratio very similar to many other contemporary designs today, including many of the new, beamy twin-rudder, chined French boats and the Elans, not to mention the other less expensive boats from Bavaria, Hanse etc.
> 
> Small rig with bad deckware can ratherer easy be replaced and retweaked with main sail traveller in cokpit etc. and the arc is perfect for stowing cockpit canopy against, a la Malö-style. At least up here the canopy is a constant problem as beeing to complicated to handle and stove.
> 
> Interior wonderful in our opinion. Can be tewaked for your own style. I have for instance through 7 different boats now tried to find decent saloon layout for 3 persons to watch TV in in comfort but failed so far. Elan 333 from 2003 leading in that deparment still.
> 
> And my old Oceanis 40 was as good going to weather, in 25-30 knots of wind and the similar short waves of perhaps 1,5 m as Paulo mentioned from the med, as my previous boat, a very different Dehler 43 CWS. When I test sailed the RM1200 in 2009 it was much worse than the Oceanis. Yes, I know RM 1200 is not a wave piercer either but still twice the price. With twin rudders now on the Oceanis 38 perhaps also the broaching-problem when ower pressed is solwed to a big extent.
> 
> I totally agree with Curt Gelin, the Swedish memeber in the European yacht Jury: "Beneteau has something nice here - new rig and better hardware and it could be really interesting."
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Anders -

Yes, I have to agree with you that just looking at the hull design and interior, the Oceanis 38 is a boat with tremendous potential. As you note, with a more powered-up rig and improved hardware / rigging, this would be a very interesting boat indeed. Mainsheet controls definitely have to come off the arch and into the cockpit somehow, and winches will need upgrading - frankly, I'd be happy without the arch altogether, since its sole function is to get the mainsheet out of the cockpit, so ladies in evening gowns don't trip over it.

But ultimately it is that hull and interior concept that I find appealing, though I will reserve judgment until I have a chance to step aboard at the boat show (whenever that is, since I just missed the one in Newport).


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Oceanis 38*



MrPelicano said:


> HMoll - But clearly you are not in the target market for the Oceanis 38, which is why the advertisement doesn't appeal to you. Based on what you are saying, you would more likely gravitate toward the Beneteau First line of performance cruisers, like the First 35 or First 40. The advertising for those boats would include video footage of the Fastnet Race and the Sydney-Hobart Race, featuring interpid men sailing upwind in 30 knots.
> 
> To be honest, I've seen the marketing videos for the First line and they're very similar to the Oceanis video, only with a bit more realistic sailing in them. But people like us are not influenced by videos, so Beneteau doesn't bother.
> 
> Best,


Well, I've been paying close attention to any news on this boat because I think I AM target market, especially now that I'm possibly closing the deal on selling my own boat this weekend.:laugher . What I tried to point out before is that even for relaxed cruising, there's elements of safety, performance, seaworthiness, that are crucial and still should be top priorities in a sailboat purchase, no matter your sailing grounds, and this video transmits NONE of those. The video says "to be continued".

On another hand, I will admit that I drool over the new Pogo 30 and I wonder what they're sketching for the 10.50. Also, when will Dufour launch a new 40P...hmmm.

That 1,000,000 views is thanks to Paulo and a few other contributors. Soon to be 4 years!!! I check it EVERY day and enjoy EVERY post. Thanks to all, especially PCP.

Hans


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Ac34*

While I was in San Francisco last weekend, I had the opportunity to watch several of the AC34 races between OTUSA and ETNZ up close and personal. We were out practicing in the Melges 24 and decided to sail up to the AC starting area, just to the southeast of the Golden Gate Bridge. Being in a Melges 24, we were able to get in quite close to the action, for both the starting sequences and for the weather mark roundings.

Let me say that the spectacle of the big 72's blasting along on their foils is very impressive indeed, and seeing the action on the water is definitely the way to go, at least a few times. Otherwise, I think the racing is actually more enjoyable to watch on a video screen. In many respects, it is like any sport where the action takes place over an extended "playing field" - e.g., F1, cycling, skiing, etc. You get to see a little bit of the action right in front of you, but the rest takes place out of view, so you're not really witnessing "the race" _per se_.

Unfortunately, we missed the dramatic moment on Saturday when ETNZ nearly flipped the boat. However, we did witness the terrific second race on Sunday where the two boats swapped the lead all the way up the windward leg until ETNZ was able to snatch the lead by getting to the favored starboard gate, with more breeze and better angle on the north side of the course.

The one thing that stands out the most from watchng the boats in person is simply how fast they are going, in both directions. It just doesn't seem possible that boats this large are able to sail this fast and in almost total control - the tacking and gybing, for ETNZ in particular, was flawless, though OTUSA was showing much better form when we saw them than they had in the early races.

Anyway, looks like the Cup is heading to New Zealand, so perhaps we can look forward to something a bit more user-friendly next time around. Would prefer to see smaller boats with more teams and strict crew nationality requirements. No team should be able to call itself "___________Team USA" and have only 1-2 Americans on the boat (unless the boat is a Laser or 49er). 

Go Kiwis!


----------



## bobperry

"Would prefer to see smaller boats with more teams and strict crew nationality requirements. No team should be able to call itself "___________Team USA" and have only 1-2 Americans on the boat (unless the boat is a Laser or 49er). "

I'm with you there Anders.


----------



## EricKLYC

smackdaddy said:


> Wow Paulo!!!! Over 1 million views on this thread!! Freakin' awesome!
> 
> Congrats on one of the best threads on the internet.


Cheers, Paulo!


----------



## outbound

Be a goof to see them in moths
Congrats Paulo


----------



## knuterikt

*Re: Elan 400*



PCP said:


> Thanks! So we are talking about less 500kg (not 1500g). That is nothing very radical, just a small improvement and should not be difficult with the alterations that are proposed. Sure, the boat will be slightly faster but still nothing like a Pogo, at least downwind. Anyway it is a good new and it will be a more interesting boat, no doubt


I talked with the Norwegian agent for Elan at the boat show here in Oslo two weeks ago.

Here is what he said
The first production boat of the Elan 400 weighed 8500kg, this is the boat all the sail magazines have tested.

The Elan 400s is 7000 kg and the standard 400 is 7500 kg

The reduction if 1000 kg from the first boat come form removing some heavy equipment (hydraulic gangway and more)


----------



## JAndersB

I must say I am surprised how Elan can send a totally naked, not even teak in cockpit, boat to shows and test and on top of it having it 1000 - 1500 kg above "normal" weight. 

In the video I was impressed by the clean wake, I guess due to more rocker/higher chines. Speed not that impressive though, they are speaking swedish and norwegian and saying 20 knots of wind and 9,5-9,8 knots of speed with code zero or gennaker. In the end they hit 11, 8 which is nice, though.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## knuterikt

JAndersB said:


> I must say I am surprised how Elan can send a totally naked, not even teak in cockpit, boat to shows and test and on top of it having it 1000 - 1500 kg above "normal" weight.
> 
> In the video I was impressed by the clean wake, I guess due to more rocker/higher chines. Speed not that impressive though, they are speaking swedish and norwegian and saying 20 knots of wind and 9,5-9,8 knots of speed with code zero or gennaker. In the end they hit 11, 8 which is nice, though.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Read these articles (in Norwegian) to get some more background.

Fjord Sail gir seg med Elan - SEILmagasinet 
Fjord Sail og Elan fortsetter - SEILmagasinet

The short version, the Norwegian distributor resigned from a 15 years cooperation with Elan in February 2013 due to disagreement with Elan on their new boats.

In May 2013 he again started to sell Elan in Norway.


----------



## JAndersB

knuterikt said:


> Read these articles (in Norwegian) to get some more background.
> 
> Fjord Sail gir seg med Elan - SEILmagasinet
> Fjord Sail og Elan fortsetter - SEILmagasinet
> 
> The short version, the Norwegian distributor resigned from a 15 years cooperation with Elan in February 2013 due to disagreement with Elan on their new boats.
> 
> In May 2013 he again started to sell Elan in Norway.


I have myself worked with the former Swedish Elan importer for a couple of years and also know Tor from that time. I also bought a new Elan 333 in 2003. I smiled for myself when I earlier read that Fjord Sail will stop with Elan due to among other things warranty problems. We had same problems in Sweden.

Going back to the 400 I basically think Elan is doing the right thing making it slightly more traditional. I do not think Elan are prepeared to make the boats as extreme as the Pogos and then they will not plane without very big efforts. Accepting semi-planing speeds and improving up- and downwind and light wind speeds might be the way many are going today.

By the way, I sailed hard on the wind today, TWS 20-28 knots and 2-3 m high swell from Scotland. Two reefs and staysail. Boat behaving excellent, no hard slams and appr. 6,5-7 knots speed at 35-40 AWA. Very saitisfied with how the boat took it.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: Ac34*



MrPelicano said:


> ....
> Unfortunately, we missed the dramatic moment on Saturday when ETNZ nearly flipped the boat. However, we did witness the terrific second race on Sunday where the two boats swapped the lead all the way up the windward leg until ETNZ was able to snatch the lead by getting to the favored starboard gate, with more breeze and better angle on the north side of the course.
> 
> .....
> 
> Anyway, looks like the Cup is heading to New Zealand, so perhaps we can look forward to something a bit more user-friendly next time around. Would prefer to see smaller boats with more teams and strict crew nationality requirements. No team should be able to call itself "___________Team USA" and have only 1-2 Americans on the boat (unless the boat is a Laser or 49er).
> 
> Go Kiwis!







Yes, quite impressive. I am not sure that if the Kiwis won the cup they will change the boat. These boats are just the sailing F1 and they should be just that. They also proved that they are able to offer great match racing and a great video spectacle. They are not boring to watch for the general public as the more traditional monohulls were.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*International C class championship*

And on the other fixed wing championship....Cammas is ahead:






Veni, vidi, vinci....That's Cammas moto. He is doing the same that he has done in the Volvo Ocean Race. How many rookies in any sport at the highest level can win at the first go?


----------



## PCP

*Re: Elan 400*



knuterikt said:


> I talked with the Norwegian agent for Elan at the boat show here in Oslo two weeks ago.
> 
> Here is what he said
> The first production boat of the Elan 400 weighed 8500kg, this is the boat all the sail magazines have tested.
> 
> The Elan 400s is 7000 kg and the standard 400 is 7500 kg
> 
> The reduction if 1000 kg from the first boat come form removing some heavy equipment (hydraulic gangway and more)
> 
> ...


I believe the boat will be lighter but taking away 1500kg out of a 8500kg boat? Only if they make an all in Carbon. Those statements are always to take with a bit of salt, specially if they come from dealers. Anyway it will depend on the draft (a 2.7m draft boat versus a 2.0m boat can be about 400kg lighter). If they offer it in epoxy versus normal resins it will be 350kg lightewer, they can take way some heavy equipment and that would not be probably more than 200/300kg and that for a much more "naked" boat.

Anyway 8500kg for a modern performance 40ft was too much.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elan 400*



JAndersB said:


> ...
> Going back to the 400 I basically think Elan is doing the right thing making it slightly more traditional. I do not think Elan are prepeared to make the boats as extreme as the Pogos and then they will not plane without very big efforts. Accepting semi-planing speeds and improving up- and downwind and light wind speeds might be the way many are going today.
> ...
> Anders


The problem here is that you look at the Elan hull and the first idea is that it is a planning boat. Well, it is not, at least like a Pogo is. For that the boat should not weight 8000kg but 5000/6000kg.

Regarding how goods and fast the boat will be, well, let's wait for some racing results or at least comparative testing. I am not impressed with what I saw till know (Yacht.de sail test).

This does not mean that the boat will not be a great performance cruiser just that it is not what it looks, I mean, almost a racing boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Elan 400*



PCP said:


> The problem here is that you look at the Elan hull and the first idea is that it is a planning boat. Well, it is not, at least like a Pogo is. For that the boat should not weight 8000kg but 5000/6000kg.
> 
> Regarding how goods and fast the boat will be, well, let's wait for some racing results or at least comparative testing. I am not impressed with what I saw till know (Yacht.de sail test).
> 
> This does not mean that the boat will not be a great performance cruiser just that it is not what it looks, I mean, almost a racing boat.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Totally agree.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: Oceanis 38*



HMoll said:


> Why won't we ever have exhilarating, choppy seas on videos and tests? This video is counterproductive, in my opinion. Now I see what was a potentially interesting boat as a "sissy boat", totally lame, delicate, unfit for a potential "real" ocean situation. If this video shows what Beneteaus are made FOR today, they better come up with some real hardcore stuff soon, and have the build quality behind it.


Sometimes they do in testing but that is just not the type of boat that will perform better on those conditions. I still say that the Oceanis worst performance will be in upwind sailing in choppy sea or bad weather. If one wants a boat that performs well on those conditions it should look for a more moderate beam and most of all to a more powerful boat (more overal RM).

If we look at the market we can see that the main difference between performance boats and main mass market cruisers is that the first are less beamy (with exception of particular boats like the Pogo) and have a considerable bigger RM for the weight. That is managed by a bigger draft or and by a bigger B/D ratio.

That bigger RM to the weight is what allows them to have a bigger SA/D and that allows them not only going faster in light wind but also to have the power to go faster upwind specially in bad weather were power is of the essence. Of course they can go faster in any point of sail but the bigger difference would be on these two points and also in what regards pointing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Thanks!*

Thanks for the nice words about this thread.

What keeps me going is you guys.

Around this thread and posting in it there are a lot of interesting sailors that sail new boats or have a lot of experience in several types of recent boats. Nice to have all your contributions that makes for a great thread and increase my knowledge on new boats and their comparative performance.

Thank you all!


----------



## PCP

*Xc 35*

Xc 35

The new baby cruiser from the more luxurious and less performance oriented line of XC yachts.

A great cruiser I am sure.


----------



## PCP

*out again!*

I am posting from a restaurant in an incredible place in Sicily (last post was 500NM back), Cape Tindary, Laghetto de Marinello). Very nice shelter and a lovely place.

Next I will sail to Rome trough the Islands (Eolian Islands, Ponza) so I will be out again for more than a week and till middle of October my participation will be reduced but that seems not to be a problem to the thread due to your
contribution. Thanks again, it is being really nice to read your posts.

Regards to all

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: out again!*



PCP said:


> I am posting from a restaurant in an incredible place in Sicily (last post was 500NM back), Cape Tindary, Laghetto de Marinello). Very nice shelter and a lovely place.
> 
> Next I will sail to Rome trough the Islands (Eolian Islands, Ponza) so I will be out again for more than a week and till middle of October my participation will be reduced but that seems not to be a problem to the thread due to your
> contribution. Thanks again, it is being really nice to read your posts.
> 
> Regards to all
> 
> Paulo


Have a nice cruise. We are also out 3-4 days per week for some more weeks. Wonderful weather still, sailed downwind yesterday north of Gothenbourg, in 8-12 knots of wind and all crew was sun bathing on foredeck.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## robelz

Is your opinion on the Elan 360 better than on the 400, Paulo?

I am still waiting for a new Pogo 10.50 or better a 11.0/11.50 with a fixed keel option...


----------



## JAndersB

robelz said:


> Is your opinion on the Elan 360 better than on the 400, Paulo?
> 
> I am still waiting for a new Pogo 10.50 or better a 11.0/11.50 with a fixed keel option...


Yes, it is strange that Pogo, RM, Archambault and Elan, among others, still all have a 1050/1060 and then a 1200 or similar. Why not the very popular size 38 feet/11-1150? Only JKP 38 in there.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## chall03

*Re: out again!*



PCP said:


> I am posting from a restaurant in an incredible place in Sicily (last post was 500NM back), Cape Tindary, Laghetto de Marinello). Very nice shelter and a lovely place.
> 
> Next I will sail to Rome trough the Islands (Eolian Islands, Ponza) so I will be out again for more than a week


Fair winds Paulo. One of the best weeks of my life was sailing through this area. Just Beautiful.


----------



## bjung

*Re: Ac34*



MrPelicano said:


> Anyway, looks like the Cup is heading to New Zealand, so perhaps we can look forward to something a bit more user-friendly next time around.
> 
> Go Kiwis!


I'm sure most thought Oracle was done, but what a comeback from 8-1! Truly an exciting race. 
Hopefully there will be a rule change to ensure the nationality of the crew matches the flag on the wing.


----------



## robelz

*Re: Ac34*



bjung said:


> I'm sure most thought Oracle was done, but what a comeback from 8-1! Truly an exciting race.
> Hopefully there will be a rule change to ensure the nationality of the crew matches the flag on the wing.


We won't see the best racers then...


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Ac34*



robelz said:


> We won't see the best racers then...


Quite a few of the best racers in the world were not involved in the AC:

Franck Cammas, Torben Grael, Robert Scheidt, and many more. So it is not asking too much to either implement nationality requirements or stop referring to the campaigns by nationality - i.e., Team Oracle or Team Emirates. Since corporate sponsorship is clearly the driving force, why bother with countries at all?

Now that the spectacle is over, we can focus on the Mini Transat and all of those very interesting 6.5M boats.


----------



## JAndersB

*Oceanis 38*

German Yacht tested the Oceanis 38 in the last issue. Seldom have they given a test so many pages and so early in the magazine. Unfortunately only 8 knots of wind. They where in general very positive. Remark, also the arc is an option and boom can be sheeted to cockpit floor if wanted. The new 31 and 34 willbe similar. Next year also a swing keel version will be sold.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

Yacht recorded 6,8 knots at 90 degree and TWS 8 knots and 5,9 knots at 45 degrees. Pretty good at that wind speed.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: out again!*



chall03 said:


> Fair winds Paulo. One of the best weeks of my life was sailing through this area. Just Beautiful.


Yes, more 350Nm and back in Rome, Fumicino were I am leaving the boat. I will pass the publicity by this is one of the best places to leave a boat or even to pass the winter aboard: 5km to the airport, 30km to Rome, 200m to the supermarket and to a cheap and good Chinese restaurant, 1,5km to center of Fumicino.

My friend Luca is a perito navale and an expert in repairing boats he is improving the place that has a beautiful natural scenery. It is always quiet even on stormy days and the price is fair, better than what we would expect near Rome: Last year it was 1900 euros + Vat from October to June.

By the way Fumicino means small river and that it is what this is, a small river packed with boats on both shores.

Chall, the problem in sailing in Italy or Sicily is that there are not many natural harbors to stay on anchor. Lots of expensive marinas (cheap here is 50 euros, most cost 80 and some 200) and even a buoy costs 35 euros.

Well they had them, I mean natural harbors, but transformed them in huge industrial ports or in natural reserves were you have to have a special permit to anchor. Still some nice ones but far away, I mean sometimes more than 80/100nm between them. In Greece on that range you will have 4 or 5 and so good you will be amazed how nature can create so many perfect natural ports.

More wind in Greece also, specially in the Aegean where you will rarely have to use the engine. From Sicily to Fumicino I had to motor most of the way (no wind at all ) and only the last 70nm where done downwind with a F6 (sometimes over 11k). Food and restaurants are also cheaper and I would say that people is more friendly especially in small places.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Luffe 36.6: Just gorgeous, a classic beauty*











I would have preferred that interior in cherry instead of mahogany. They made at Luffe a fabulous non glossy cherry interior, even nicer than teak.


----------



## PCP

*Oceanis 38*



JAndersB said:


> German Yacht tested the Oceanis 38 in the last issue. Seldom have they given a test so many pages and so early in the magazine. Unfortunately only 8 knots of wind. They where in general very positive. Remark, also the arc is an option and boom can be sheeted to cockpit floor if wanted. The new 31 and 34 willbe similar. Next year also a swing keel version will be sold.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders





JAndersB said:


> Yacht recorded 6,8 knots at 90 degree and TWS 8 knots and 5,9 knots at 45 degrees. Pretty good at that wind speed.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders





JAndersB said:


> Yes, it is strange that Pogo, RM, Archambault and Elan, among others, still all have a 1050/1060 and then a 1200 or similar. Why not the very popular size 38 feet/11-1150? Only JKP 38 in there.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Yes, not bad for a mass market boat. A 38ft performance cruiser would be considerably faster. Have a look at this test on the Salona 38 (Voile and voiliers), with one less knot of wind the Salona makes the same speed at 45 degrees and one knot of wind on that range (6/8K) is a lot, I mean the boat will go almost 1K faster with that extra knot of wind.

http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/Voiles et voilers-11-2011.pdf

By the way the Salona 38 has won its first major race in Helsinki. The second was a Salona 37

Ranking 2013

Regarding boats with 38ft the French have not many but the Italian have plenty, starting by the Comet 38 that had a great performance on the last ORCI world championship.

http://www.comaryachts.it/images/Boats/CY Fare Vela 10 08 n.1.PDF

Comet 38 and Salona 38 will have a close performance but one far better than the Oceanis 38.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Ac34*



bjung said:


> I'm sure most thought Oracle was done, but what a comeback from 8-1! Truly an exciting race.
> Hopefully there will be a rule change to ensure the nationality of the crew matches the flag on the wing.


Yes that was truly amazing for Oracle, what a come back and the big question is how it was possible: While the NZ claim they were using on the second boat (the one that was used on the victory lane) an illegal ? electronic/computerized system to increase stability (SAS) while others say that the second boat was highly modified, with asymmetric hulls, mast more aft, bigger foils on the rudder and a mechanical system to adjust mechanically the main foils. It seems that the issue regards that adjust on the main foils being computer driven or not.

It would not surprise me that they had used a computer driven system and I am pretty sure it would be more effective. It is good to remember that fast aircraft use computer aided systems and would be probably impossible to fly them without.

Anyway it seems a lot of modifications to be made on just two weeks. It was obvious that they considered two weeks ago the first boat better...so, I guess that we would still hear more about this.

Regarding the AC to be a nations cup, with crews and designers belonging to each country, I could not agree more. The Youth AC cup had lead the way in that direction with nation teams: First and second were NZ teams, the third the Portuguese one. The first American team (out of two) come only in 5th, being the second American team last.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Is your opinion on the Elan 360 better than on the 400, Paulo?
> 
> I am still waiting for a new Pogo 10.50 or better a 11.0/11.50 with a fixed keel option...


Well, the Pogo 10.50 as it is is a great boat and has a fixed keel option. I would say that the biggest disadvantage is a quite nude interior, even if practical for a kind of spartan cruise, even for voyaging. Regarding that a new one would not be different (they need that spartan interior to keep the weight down) and the advantage in performance would be minimal, just a slightly more modern look is what you would get.

The option regarding a boat with a better interior and not very different performances, I mean same kind of performance, would be the JPK 38.

Regarding the Elan I have not information enough to give you an answer. The 400 had a weight problem and has been put on diet. We will see the results. For the 360 is too soon to know, besides I have been sailing and not reading boat tests Anyway they are different boats, I mean a 36ft is way different from a 40ft, in performance, stability and sea motion.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Oceanis 38*



PCP said:


> Yes, not bad for a mass market boat. A 38ft performance cruiser would be considerably faster. Have a look at this test on the Salona 38 (Voile and voiliers), with one less knot of wind the Salona makes the same speed at 45 degrees and one knot of wind on that range (6/8K) is a lot, I mean the boat will go almost 1K faster with that extra knot of wind.
> 
> http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/Voiles et voilers-11-2011.pdf
> 
> By the way the Salona 38 has won its first major race in Helsinki. The second was a Salona 37
> 
> Ranking 2013
> 
> Regarding boats with 38ft the French have not many but the Italian have plenty, starting by the Comet 38 that had a great performance on the last ORCI world championship.
> 
> http://www.comaryachts.it/images/Boats/CY Fare Vela 10 08 n.1.PDF
> 
> Comet 38 and Salona 38 will have a close performance but one far better than the Oceanis 38.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


First of all, we can not totally relay on boat speed and wind speed numbers - instrument calibration can (are often in my opinion) be very off and current influencing also. But we can get the big picture.

Most of these italian and other boats, that I would call rather traditional, would never make my wifes nor mine shortlist due to not fullfilling other aspects that we ealuate modern, interesting boats from, mostly talking about interior design and contact with nature but also hull shapes and keel/rudder configurations. And modern looks. But taste is of course different.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: Oceanis 38*



JAndersB said:


> First of all, we can not totally relay on boat speed and wind speed numbers - instrument calibration can (are often in my opinion) be very off and current influencing also. But we can get the big picture.
> 
> .... But taste is of course different.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Yes, tastes are relative, performances not.

The Oceanis 38 is a nice boat but not on the league of performance cruisers. You have only to look at the SA/D to realize that.

When they get an ORCI rating (or LYS) you will see that I am right and that the Oceanis 38 is not really fast boat, nor a performance boat.

That does not mean that it is not an excellent cruiser, a boat that will fulfill completely the role for the market it was designed. It would be less fast in light wind than any performance cruiser, a fast and stable boat downwind with enough wind, an acceptable boat upwind in flat water and a not very good one, or comfortable one upwind with waves.

Anyway most of that market target (mass market) will not beat upwind and will just motor, so that is not really a problem.

I agree that the Oceanis 38 has a great and innovative interior, at least is the impression I get from the video and photo coverage.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Oceanis 38*



PCP said:


> Yes, tastes are relative, performances not.
> 
> That does not mean that it is not an excellent cruiser, a boat that will fulfill completely the role for the market it was designed. It would be less fast in light wind than any performance cruiser, a fast and stable boat downwind with enough wind, an acceptable boat upwind in flat water and a not very good one, or comfortable one upwind with waves.
> 
> Anyway most of that market target (mass market) will not beat upwind and will just motor, so that is not really a problem.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


As I have written before, I am not that shure it will be bad upwind. At least my Oceanis 40 was definitively not uncomfortable, at least not up to 30 knots and nasty 1,5 m waves with short amplitude.

It is amusing me though to see all these boats motoring upwind, slamming hard. A boat sailing upwind has a much softer ride and is often almost as quick, at least in higher winds. But sure, you have to do some physical work and that seems to be a big hurdel for many.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## olianta

PCP said:


> Rumen, keep us posted about that please and tell us why the boat seems not to have a traveler.
> 
> Oluf used to do that on less sportive boats (Luffe 43DS) but this seems to be a sportive boat.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Last weekend I was in Kolding again testing the new Luffe 3.6 and also the older but improved model Luffe 37.09. On Saturday, though sunny there wasn't enough wind but nevertheless it was worth to see how both boats slippery hulls made speed in winds less than 5 knots. I think the 37.09 pointed better but in my opinion this was because the Genoa on the 3.6 was sled tacking, while the 37 did have a conventional one. On Sunday there was fresh wind and I have been again on the 3.6 this time a guest while the test sailor was a Danish family with two young kids. The first thing that impressed was that leaving and docking was an exercise with all those ropes on the piles since the fresh wind gusting to 25-26 knots was coming form abeam and the slip was awkward.But Oluf and the other guy managed to tame the boat which did have a lot of wind age with the high freeboards. Going upwind in apparent between 30- nod 40 degrees and 22-28 knots caused a significant heel but the boat was very stable. A cute thing is the angled floors at aft part of the cockpit where I could stay standing on the leeward side conveniently. Neither the main, not the genoa were reefer and tacking with a self tacking jib is a piece of cake of cake. The traveller us a very short one may be 50 cm between the benches and I do not think it makes a lot of job. Upwind we were making appr. 7 knots in flat water, while almost dead downwind under mainsail alone we were doing 6 knots. Unfortunately in the Kolding fjord there are no waves and you cannot see the full picture. I thin this boat is not meant to be a racer, but a performer cruiser aimed at families with children who want to switch form the 37 to 3.6 for more space. At least that was what the Danish family was looking for.

Rumen


----------



## robelz

Bob Oatley / Australia is the new challenger of record:

America's Cup: Erster Herausforderer aus Australien - Sport | YACHT.DE


----------



## PCP

*Premier 45*

I had already talked about this design by Botin and Carkeek with exterior Styling by Harry Miesbauerand and Interior design concept by Snohetta. It was for me the wow boat of the last Dusseldorf boat show, the one that put me dreaming: if I was a rich man..

The boat is not as naked as a Pogo (I could live with this one) I would say Zen style and the specifications looked perfect to me: The boat is average in what regards beam ( 4.15m) -for instance a much smaller Hanse 415 has 4.17m - but is hugely stiff, with 41% of B/D, considering a draft of 2.75m and a high profile torpedo keel. The draft is not a problem because the keel lifts in only 20 seconds to a very convenient cruising draft of 1.85m.

The boat is made with high tech materials and weights only 8000kg and that means that it does not need a big sail area to go very fast, in fact the boat has an upwind sail area similar to my boat (Comet 41) but can carry downwind an huge sail area: 260m2

The Premier 45 was tested recently by Yacht de and I was not surprised with their very flattering comments...it just confirms that Wow impression on Dusseldorf. They said:

* "Elaborately built like a racer, comfortably equipped as a cruiser: The Premier 45 ideally combines the best of both worlds....she sails gorgeous, fast, agile and problem-free with a performance that is easy to access. This makes it a unique design both outside and inside...

The boat has been nominated for the election of European Yacht of the Year and is currently being sailed by the international jury at Southampton."*

Premier 45: Charakter und Leistungsbereitschaft - Service*|*YACHT.DE









Marcelino Botin one of the designers comments on the boat:

*"We are expecting the Premier 45 to be fast. It is quite a light boat with a hull based on the TP52 concept, with a wide, powerful stern section, but with high stability. But it is a cruiser, very fast for her size. In terms of performance she should excel both upwind and downwind. Upwind you have a good deep keel and plenty of sail area, and downwind she will fly. We expect her to be faster than the typical competition by a big amount.

" And for us as designers, it is great to have a high tech composite cruiser built in the very controlled environment that Premier has. It ensures that the boat comes out close to the design weight, and hence to the performance we expect."
"There are a lot of owners who are looking for this type of boat, a smaller Wally-type yacht with a very minimalist, clean approach."*

Premier 45, the ultimate performance cruiser | JEC Composites

You can see more pictures here:

Botin Partners


----------



## PCP

*Fast sailing:*


----------



## PCP

*Le Cleach, the first exploit on multihull:*

New med record, from Marseille to Carthage. As you probably remember Le Cleach was 2th on the last Vendee Globe after a huge fight with François Gabart. After the race he said goodbye to monohulls and entered a new adventurer, racing solo a big multihull. It seems the man learns fast


----------



## PCP

*Jason Ker 40 class racer*

Ker is dominating IRC (in its class) with his One design 40 and not only, just remember that a Sydney 43 also designed by him won the next Sydney Hobart, but one thing is a design for crew racing other a design for solo racing and I am very curious to see how the new solo boat will perform.

Just to see the differences in design, besides beam, have a look at how the design of the transom is different, not in what regards beam being brought back but on the way the boat sits on the water and allows heeling.

The IRC racer:






and the 40 class solo racer:







The boat first race will be the Transat Jaques Fabre that will start soon.

By the way, ker is the one that has been working on the keels and rudders of Salonas with obvious results in speed and victories. The first Salona completely designed by Ker will be the 60 and I cannot wait to see the smaller Salonas completely designed by him.


----------



## PCP

*Allures 39.9*

We have talked already about the new boat from Allures, an Aluminium voyage boat as all the others but no movie of the boat on the water and no boat test. Here are the first one, curiously in English by Sailing today magazine:

the test:

http://www.allures.fr/pdf/ST196_Boat_Test_Allures39_DK_V6.pdf






They have summed it up this way:

*"The Allures 39.9 is close to my ideal cruising yacht and not badly priced when compared to similar GRP offerings."*

...


----------



## donjuanluis

Kubota said:


> There is a new Varianta coming up-the 37. She's based on hanse 375 and is to cost less than 80 000€. I cant post links or photos, but you can see the first photo of varianta 37 on Yacht magazin's website. I like the concept of inexpensive, well sailing boat. Hopefully they will eliminate some weak points of older 44(lack of anchor locker, stowage room)... With a few add-ons she could even look good.


Nice thread, with tons of info, congrats...

Today I saw this http://www.varianta.info/#/index.php?id=3353&L=6&type=666
and for 75.000 € on basic version is a really good choice, I think I will like to be in the list.

fair winds and have fun!


----------



## Kubota

I wanted to post this link as well. I like the concept of affordable, well built boat, and this time i even like the interior. It is rather simple and minimalistic, but I could easily deal with that having a 37-footer for a price of a32-footer loaded with mahogany. Just a boat meant for sailing... I wonder how fast will it be...


----------



## robelz

L?Océan 35 en mots et en images ! | Attitude Ocean

Does anyone know about this one?


----------



## PCP

*Varianta 37*

Yes, I agree with both of you. It seems that the Varianta has revue the target market and while the bigger boat seems to be pointed to club racing this one points to cruising and a truly unbeatable price, as you say, a 37ft for the price of a 32ft.






Contrary to the Varianta 44 this one has a good anchor locker (the winch is an extra) and a simple but very nice interior, much more nicer than the one on the 44.

The boat is simple but has all things you need to cruise. Of course, I would put an anchor winch, bigger sail winches, a lazy bag and a traveler, but even so the boat would be cheaper than anything on the market.

A very nice stability curve, a well built solid boat and a boat that sails very well with an agreeable interior...what we do need more for cruising?

I guess this one is going to sell much better than the 44. The base price is a bit over 70 000 euros without tax.



















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Ocean 35*



robelz said:


> L?Océan 35 en mots et en images ! | Attitude Ocean
> 
> Does anyone know about this one?


 have heard about it when it was a project. No it is in the water and it looks just great and that should not surprise looking to the ones that designed it:

IDesign : Franck DARNET Design
Architectes : Ronan GUERIN - Gildas PLESSIS - François LUCAS

These guys are among the most new generation innovative NA and the boat is light and certainly fast with a great interior....it cannot be cheap (232 000 euros), but it is certainly a very interesting boat. They are working on a 38fter now.









http://nautisme.lefigaro.fr/actuali...-35---un-croiseur-a-vivre-performant-3140.php

http://www.attitude-ocean.com/la-gamme/ocean-35/

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

*Re: Ocean 35*



PCP said:


> have heard about it when it was a project. No it is in the water and it looks just great and that should not surprise looking to the ones that designed it:
> 
> IDesign : Franck DARNET Design
> Architectes : Ronan GUERIN - Gildas PLESSIS - François LUCAS
> 
> These guys are among the most new generation innovative NA and the boat is light and certainly fast with a great interior....it cannot be cheap (232 000 euros), but it is certainly a very interesting boat. They are working on a 38fter now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actualités Nautisme : l'actualité du nautisme au quotidien avec Figaro Nautisme
> 
> Océan 35 | Attitude Ocean
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Would love to see a VPP. Will it be similar to the Malango 1045 or even Pogo 10.50? What do you think about the closed and small Cockpit?


----------



## AlaskaMC

Is it likely that the Varianta line will ever make it to the US? I wish that one of the US manufacturers would take a page outta Hanse's book and try to build a lower cost boat that could be good for families to start getting out there. That would be a base price of just under 100K for a new 37' boat. That is a SIGNIFICANT difference than anything available here and it is a great design for sailing rather than a compromise boat.

Are you listening out there builders? We wonder why there are not so many young families getting into sailing. If you scale this approach down, what could you have for a 25 or 30 footer?


----------



## PCP

*Wow!!!*


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Wow!!!*



PCP said:


>


Great video indeed, Paulo!

Bright sunshine, broad reach apparent wind, I guess around 25knts of TWS and nice waves, could one ask for more ?

I think at least a few lessons can be learned, as I did myself in almost exactly the same conditions eight weeks ago. 
Surfing down the waves under full white sails and at 13-16 knts boat speed over the last few hours. The predicted windshift from S to SW came exactly in time for our strategic gybe immediately offshore of the Maasvlakte (South approach to Rotterdam) .

Pure sailing pleasure, only we had the NKE autopilot under control. 
In true wind mode, I still feel it did a much better job than the helmsman on this video. Although it's of course hard to say without knowing this particular boat, it seems to me he is overactive at the wheel and therefore somewhat out of control.

Anyway, when a strong gust hit us, even the smart autopilot and the twin rudders of our 12.50 lost control, leading to a very slow and gentle broach, as usual.

Then I became overactive myself.
I took over the helm, thinking I could make a better recovery than the NKE. First mistake.

Then I stood up to release the downhoal -which of course I should have done in the first place-, still holding the tiller in the other hand. Second mistake.
"One hand for the ship, one hand for yourself". A basic rule I never miss to stress at every security briefing with any crew before setting off.

So there I stood free, one hand at the tiller and the other almost reaching the downhaul on the coach roof winch, when one of those rotten, steep ground waves hit the hull. 
I don't think we even reached 35° of heel but the impact catapulted me onto the low cockpit bench. My wife was in the cabin, saw me flying by and thought I ended overboard. Which I probably would have on a less beamy and stable boat.

Then the boat -even gently and all by itself- recovered, leaving the skipper with a fractured forearm and an even more damaged ego. 
Third and probably most important lesson learned: a good boat will take good care of her crew.

Plus: even if your wife mostly sails "passively" as mine does, when the s**t hits the fan she will perfectly know what to do, first as a dedicated nurse and then as a very efficient co-skipper/crew/trouble manager/psychotherapist. 
She, the Pogo and the NKE brought us quickly and safely to Scheveningen. Where we "enjoyed" the extremely professional but equally inefficient Dutch "emergency" care, but that's another story.

Two months later I hope the plaster will come off soon and yesterday I sent a diver down to free our propeller from the barnacles that inevitably grow on a boat that is left unused for too long .

Returning to the video, also there some valuable lessons can be learned.
Except overactive, the helmsman also seems insufficiently anticipating to me. When surfing down a nice wave you bare down because the apparent wind lessens and comes more forward because of the increasing speed. But unless luffing in time before hitting the wave upfront , the sudden loss of speed (rudder) and increasing/giving apparent wind (sail pressure) means trouble. Nose down (especially with an over-trimmed foresail), broach or -the worst- an uncontrolled gybe.

Anyway, I would not dare to sail in these conditions without an efficient gybe preventer. 
And certainly not without everyone on board wearing a decent life jacket!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## Faster

Great post, Eric.. sorry to hear of your injury.. but very glad to hear of your ongoing adventures on your new boat!!

Kudos to your wife/nurse/therapist!!


----------



## EricKLYC

Thanks Faster, me and my wife/nurse/crew/shrink very much appreciate your empathy!

The bone will heal soon, the ego will probably take some more time.

But the bottom line is: _there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it_ .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> Thanks Faster, me and my wife/nurse/crew/shrink very much appreciate your empathy!
> 
> The bone will heal soon, the ego will probably take some more time.
> 
> But the bottom line is: _there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it_ .
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Sorry to hear about that accident...I hope you will be back in full form soon.

I am finally at my winter home after having prepared the boat for the winter in Fumicino. Last day of sailing between Ponza and Fumicino was a great sailing day with lots of surfing...but at 11, 12K, far away from the speed you get on the Pogo. Anyway it was great fun and the surfing seemed never end.

Never being surfing for so much time, sometimes close to 1 minute, it was great fun anyway. I was sailing on 20/30K winds under double reefed main and just a bit of genoa.

I now I could go faster but it seems that my wife gets scared more easily than yours so I make a point to make her feeling always safe, otherwise I guess that I would end up sailing alone. Can you believe that I managed never broach the boat in several thousands of nm? Being close, but always able to recover. Of course that means I could go faster but that's the way it is.

Anyway my wife is not scared anymore to go over 10k and that is a big improvement. Maybe she will keep growing in confidence and one day let me explore the boat limits

The guy from the factory that some years ago test sailed the boat for the first time (with a crew) said that they surfed at 18K with 30k wind...and with a spinnaker

Of course I cannot imagine me flying a spinnaker alone with 30k of wind and I take also a lot of load in my boat, including about 500kg of tankage and all the stuff I need to cruise in comfort. I guess that boat should be about 1000kg lighter, not counting the weight of the crew, but that on racing boat works like movable ballast and can be put where it is needed.

Anyway I have no doubt that even if my boat is a stable boat downwind the Pogo will be much stiffer and easy to sail on that sailing point...also more easy than that racing boat on the movie and that is what Pogo's are about: Downwind speed with ease.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Show | YACHT.DE

It is said that there are 2 bowsprit lengths available. Does anyone know about this? What will be the advantage of a shorter one?


----------



## PCP

*Sunfast 3600*



robelz said:


> Show*|*YACHT.DE
> 
> It is said that there are 2 bowsprit lengths available. Does anyone know about this? What will be the advantage of a shorter one?


The boat looks great...except on the interior and that's a pity. Why the hell do you need a settee on the galley on that position? That space could and should be used to improve the galley.

They could also have find a better location for the liferaft.











Regarding the bowsprits, maybe one for IRC racing (with crew) and other to solo race?

When someone reads the Yacht.de test please post the general idea for us.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Nice looking boat. Could be sprit length depends on your target rating.


----------



## Faster

robelz said:


> It is said that there are 2 bowsprit lengths available. Does anyone know about this? What will be the advantage of a shorter one?


Cheaper moorage bill??


----------



## overbored

My kind of boat. the life raft is located where you can't stand anyway its the swim ladder that is in a bad position with the back stay in the way. its a narrow cabin top so the galley has to be in the center of the boat. whats the head clearance. I am starting to look for this type of boat. its maybe time to upgrade to a little more modern boat. something with smaller headsails for short handed sailing. but love my retractable sprit. get the sail a lot further forward but does not raise the slip fee.


----------



## robelz

*Re: Sunfast 3600*



PCP said:


> The boat looks great...except on the interior and that's a pity. Why the hell do you need a settee on the galley on that position? That space could and should be used to improve the galley.
> 
> They could also have find a better location for the liferaft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the bowsprits, maybe one for IRC racing (with crew) and other to solo race?
> 
> When someone reads the Yacht.de test please post the general idea for us.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


It will need weeks or months until the test arrives. I can send you a scan but I don't want to post it here due to copyright laws.


----------



## JohnJohn23

Do all people here own their own personal boats or there are someone out there who is renting just for season, I am considering different options so gathering information before I decide.


----------



## PCP

*Borrasca*

Some days ago on this year's edition of COPPA DALLORSO (Italy) the sailing boats were caught by one of those sudden Autumn med typical sudden storms that they call "Borraca" and have some nice "Colpi di venti" (60K).

There is a fantastic video on a J80 but I am not able to post it here so you have to look on the link and I can tell you you should not miss it. The better is after the middle:

Giornale Della Vela | Paura alla Coppa Dallorso vento a pi di 60Difficilmente davanti alle nostre coste arrivano sventolate come quella che

Some less impressive ones from that race:


----------



## EricKLYC

Waw&#8230;
May be 60 K is a bit exaggerated (you know, Italians, Berlusconi and such things ) but this is certainly quite a blow!

As an antidote, here's a short video of easy sailing for handicapped skippers :
https://www.dropbox.com/l/sYGzYM3Fl3DW46UsWH9Nnt

Thanks to our dear friend and colleague Jim, my excellent crew/company/cameraman last Saturday.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

robelz said:


> Show*|*YACHT.DE
> 
> It is said that there are 2 bowsprit lengths available. Does anyone know about this? What will be the advantage of a shorter one?


The French "Voile Magazine" (last edition, October 2013) tested the Django 6.70, a cruising version of their Mini 6.50 Dingo 2. This Django also has a bowsprit useable in two lengths. One (extended) for the spinnaker and the other (half retracted) for the code 0, they say. 
Using a bowsprit, spinnaker and code 0 myself, this makes sense to me.

The further you can bring the tack of an asymmetric spinnaker forward, the less it will be influenced by the mainsail and the better your downwind VMG will be. Mini 6.50's even have swinging bowsprits to bring the spinnaker to windward and enable them to go even deeper downwind.

A code 0 is more about (close) reaching, when you prefer to stay within the influence of the mainsail because of its upwash (giving apparent wind) and shorten the luff for better upwind performance.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

EricKLYC said:


> Waw&#8230;
> May be 60 K is a bit exaggerated (you know, Italians, Berlusconi and such things ) but this is certainly quite a blow!
> 
> As an antidote, here's a short video of easy sailing for handicapped skippers :
> https://www.dropbox.com/l/sYGzYM3Fl3DW46UsWH9Nnt
> 
> Thanks to our dear friend and colleague Jim, my excellent crew/company/cameraman last Sunday.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Very funny, I mean the handicapped skipper and a very nice video.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Ocean 35*



robelz said:


> Would love to see a VPP. Will it be similar to the Malango 1045 or even Pogo 10.50? What do you think about the closed and small Cockpit?


The hull is not very different from the one of a Pogo 10.50, with just about 8 less cm of beam but the boat has a much better cruising interior and that means a more heavy boat. The Pogo 10.50 light weight is only 3.600kg while they announce for the Ocean 35 a weight between 3800 kg and 5500kg. This difference seems to me too much to be the difference between minimum sailing condition and max load (on a 35ft that should be about 1000kg) so they are talking probably about a light weight of a much more naked boat in what regards 3800kg. Certainly a boat with the great cruising interior that we can see on the pictures would weight more even if the 5500kg seems too much to me...

Bottom point, yes probably the Ocean 35 can be almost as fast or as fast has the Pogo 10.50 but on a lighter version (in what regards the interior) than the one that is pictured on their site, this one:



Miracles are hard to get and there is a reason for that rather naked and somewhat poor interior on the Pogo



Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*

is almost there:





Mini Transat - Départ le 13 octobre 2013 _by minitransat_

it starts in 3 days and it is more international and interesting than ever:

"Seven Italians on the line 
They are the great leaders of the Mediterranean races. The Italians found in the Mini Transat an escape from and elitist yachting still steeped in maritime tradition....

Antipodeans and Americans 
Some do not hesitate to come from far away to attend. And two Australians will be on the starting line, namely Richard Hewson and Katrina Ham. Another representative of the southern hemisphere, the South African Craig Horsfield will also join the group...Jeffrey MacFarlane is a man determined to race the Mini Transat no matter what obstacles are put in his way. Originally from the United States, he participated in the pre-season races in the Mediterranean before his boat was shipwrecked in a gale. Determined to participate at any cost, he decided to rent the prototype of Czech navigator Milan Kolacek, which had claimed the Champion of France title, and he has battled through all the qualifying events to be present at the start. A good boat, unwavering determination, perhaps Jeffrey will follow the footsteps of Norton Smith? We must not forget the Canadian Diane Reid who intends to try her luck in a series boat. ..

European melting pot 
Four Spanish navigators, three Swiss and three Belgians, a Hungarian, an Estonian, a Brit, one German and one Dutch - Europe is present in all its diversity. Hungary's Aron Meder, is an old hand at offshore racing and has already sailed around the world on a lake boat of less than six meters. The Dutchman Robert Rosen Jacobson is a repeat offender. This particularly active retired 62 year old already has several Mini Transat under his keel. He is best known for never letting up, sometimes pushing his boats beyond their reasonable limits. ...

The course 2013: returns to its origins 
Leg one - Douarnenez to Arrecife (Lanzarote): 1200 miles. 
Leg two - Arrecife to Pointe a Pitre: 2800 miles.

Dates 
Prologue 'Tout commence en Finistère' October 6, 2013. 
Start from Douarnenez October 13, 2013 at 13h. Arrival in the Canary Islands between 23 and 26 October 2013. 
Start from Canary Islands November 9, 2013. Arrival in Guadeloupe between 23 and 30 November 2013. "

more here:

Sail-World.com : Mini-Transat 2013 - The most international of offshore races

Historique | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

Proto vs Série | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


----------



## EricKLYC

PCP said:


> The boat looks great...except on the interior and that's a pity. Why the hell do you need a settee on the galley on that position? That space could and should be used to improve the galley.


I think these settees are meant for short handed racing, especially the Transquadra where the Sun Fast 3200 made its reputation. On watch you can take a sheltered rest on both tacks, your weight in the right position (centered and on the high side), with a hatch right above your head to keep an eye on the Windex and mainsail, ready to jump into the cockpit for maneuvering.

The Pogo 30, also clearly designed with the Transquadra in mind (no 10.50 ever participated because it didn't fit the inclusion criteria, I think because of the keel), features the same settees on both sides, plus a frontal window in the coachroof for a forward view on the jib/spinnaker.

For cruising purposes the settee next to the galley can be switched for a hinged burner/oven and I suppose Jeanneau will also offer this option on the Sun Fast to improve the galley.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> is almost there:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mini Transat - Départ le 13 octobre 2013 _by minitransat_
> 
> it starts in 3 days and it is more international and interesting than ever:
> 
> ...
> 
> The course 2013: returns to its origins
> Leg one - Douarnenez to Arrecife (Lanzarote): 1200 miles.
> Leg two - Arrecife to Pointe a Pitre: 2800 miles.
> 
> Dates
> Prologue 'Tout commence en Finistère' October 6, 2013.
> Start from Douarnenez October 13, 2013 at 13h. Arrival in the Canary Islands between 23 and 26 October 2013.
> Start from Canary Islands November 9, 2013. Arrival in Guadeloupe between 23 and 30 November 2013. "[/COLOR]
> 
> more here:
> 
> Sail-World.com : Mini-Transat 2013 - The most international of offshore races
> 
> Historique | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre
> 
> Proto vs Série | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


Next to the Vendée Globe, this is one of the most extraordinary races to me.
Not only because one of the participants in the series class, Bert Bossyns on the Nacira 6.50 NETWERK, is a highly valued member of the Yacht Club I preside (KLYC) .

For those who understand Dutch: Bert Bossyns | Sailing Across - Bert Bossyns.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*RM 1260, Tofinou 16, Centurion Wauquiez 57*

A presentation from Cannes boat show by SVN:


----------



## JAndersB

The Wauquiez Centurion 57 looked very nice.

By the way, here is a link to a new Hunter_

Hunter 37 ? All New ? Designed for You « Legend Yacht Sales

Anders


----------



## robelz

Can't await to see a price suggestion for the attidude ocean 35. I am not looking for a swimming suite so a true alternative to the Pogo 10.50 would be interesting...


----------



## PCP

*Ocean 35*



robelz said:


> Can't await to see a price suggestion for the attidude ocean 35. I am not looking for a swimming suite so a true alternative to the Pogo 10.50 would be interesting...


They have a price in the site or I saw it somewhere, if I can remember right it was something like 225 000 euros with tax, probably for a boat with the advertised interior but without options. If you are interested ask them and also more details and share the information. There is something I don't like: For a boat with this price tag (about 25 000 euros over a Salona 38) it should be expected a lead keel...well no, it is an iron one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Legend Hunter 37*



JAndersB said:


> The Wauquiez Centurion 57 looked very nice.
> 
> By the way, here is a link to a new Hunter_
> 
> Hunter 37 ? All New ? Designed for You « Legend Yacht Sales
> 
> Anders


And it is difficult to say more. No technical specifications neither hull designs or photos except a lateral one that does not say much. We don't know also who has designed that boat. We can see that the boat has a very good galley for a 37ft and that it has a very beamy hull with all the beam pulled aft:



I don't understand their policy. People will buy boats in the states looking only at the interior without any word about materials and the way the boat is built?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Grand Soleil in trouble*

The Pardo Cantieri after being bought by Bavaria is in trouble again. Bavaria let it go and now it risks to go bankrupt if someone is not buying it.

I commented that with a very well informed Italian friend and he explained to me that there was no way Germans could work in Italy among a huge bureaucracy crazy labor laws and the Italian way of doing things that are completely opposed to the German one. Maybe that is way Italy as a country is in trouble too

Well, if they go down they will go down in style because on the last years instead of cutting costs and rationalize production and number of models they had made a lot of new models: a 39ft, a 43ft and a 47 not to mention the very recent 54fter. All very nice boats I should say.

Grand Soleil - Cantiere del Pardo


----------



## Faster

*Re: Legend Hunter 37*



PCP said:


> I don't understand their policy. People will buy boats in the states looking only at the interior without any word about materials and the way the boat is built?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Sadly, many boats are sold here based on their visual appeal below whilst perched dead-level on stands on an arena floor. (often with a curtain around the underbody )


----------



## PCP

*JPK 10.80/Sunfast 3600*



EricKLYC said:


> I think these settees are meant for short handed racing, especially the Transquadra where the Sun Fast 3200 made its reputation. On watch you can take a sheltered rest on both tacks, your weight in the right position (centered and on the high side), with a hatch right above your head to keep an eye on the Windex and mainsail, ready to jump into the cockpit for maneuvering.
> 
> The Pogo 30, also clearly designed with the Transquadra in mind (no 10.50 ever participated because it didn't fit the inclusion criteria, I think because of the keel), features the same settees on both sides, plus a frontal window in the coachroof for a forward view on the jib/spinnaker.
> 
> For cruising purposes the settee next to the galley can be switched for a hinged burner/oven and I suppose Jeanneau will also offer this option on the Sun Fast to improve the galley.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Yes you are right about that but it makes no sense in what regards cruising and I don't know if Jeanneau is going to purpose another interior. If they intended to do so they would have presented it on the boat project. They didn't and when things are not thought from the beginning sometimes modifications are very costly and big companies are very renitent to change anything that has to do with molds.

On the contrary their closest competitor, JPK 10.80, previewed from the beginning two interior layouts, one similar to the one from Jeanneau, with two lateral settees (that have a forward view) and one for cruising maximizing the galley.

Both boats are very similar in weight, beam, draft, ballast and hull design, having the JPK a bit more form stability (a bit more beam) and a bit less ballast but the differences are really very small: The JPK has more 5 cm of draft, less 100kg of ballast (1900 to 2000kg) and more 10cm of beam (3.65 to 3.55) the keels are similar and the JPK is 300kg heavier (4800 to 4500kg)...but regarding that what counts is the real weight of the boat, not the one that is intended. They are not always the same, I would say rarely are the same

The JPK 10.80 should be almost ready. Some pictures:



















and the first Sunfast video:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Azuree 46*






*WOW*, very nice and interesting!!! This seems to be an improvement in design over the two previous boats. I guess the change in designer have something to do with it. The 40 was a Ceccarelli design the 46 is a Rob Humphreys and one of the most beautiful among them, in my opinion.

Humphreys says about it:

"Having considered a shortlist of potential designers for their new Azuree model, Sirena Marine tasked us with the challenge of designing a new flagship for the range. The current models are exciting, twin-ruddered Open-style boats and share some philosophy with a development line we have pursued for a number of years, one that in our case derives from our work in the Open 60, Volvo 70 and Class 40 theatres.

We love this style of boat; it delivers a heady mix of excitement and excellent traction. If it was a car it would be one which could be thrown it into the corners at high speed in the knowledge that it would respond to the driver's most delicate touch - adrenaline and reassurance mixing in a rare infusion.

But... fast, exciting yet forgiving: these are qualities one can find in a dedicated, custom raceboat, and in themselves are not enough to enthuse the wider sailing sector. We needed to focus not just on performance per se, but on performance versus handicapping, under both IRC and ORC rules. We wanted to design a boat that could thrill in its sailing qualities but also have a chance of delivering some silverware, and with the Azuree 46 we believe we have a boat with well-rounded capability.

Of course she will be fast and exhilarating downwind in a breeze, but at the same time powerful upwind in the same conditions, with her long waterline and easy lines giving her the feel and power of a larger yacht. And in the same, ambidextrous way we had to make sure she was no slouch in the light; her hull may be wide and powerful, but the upright immersed sections represent a surprisingly low wetted area form in order to minimise viscous drag and make the most of the Azuree 46's generous sail plan.

If it was a case of ticking boxes, that's a few of them addressed. But for many boat owners, performance and race-winning potential is only part of their lifestyle. For an immense number, sailing is also about the simple joys of just enjoying life on board, to have home-comforts at anchor as much as to have long-distance passagemaking as part of their potential itinerary.

The Azuree 46 can hold its hand up as a very capable cruising yacht, as able to slog it round Ushant in the teeth of a South Westerly as to provide exuberant comfort at anchor in Göcek, where the enormous cockpit transforms itself into an enveloping reclining area.

The Azuree 46 is a thoughtfully blended cocktail, sensitively composed and definitely shaken, not stirred."

We will talk more about this one that seems to be a hell of a boat and probably at a very nice price (the boat is made by Sirena in Turkey).


----------



## PCP

*Jean Pierre-Dick capsizes his Mod 70 (70ft trimaran)*

That's the second time a Mod 70 capsizes recently. These babes are fast...but very tricky to sail specially with a two men crew. I wonder how it is going to be on the Route du Rhum when they will be solo sailed.

Great images anyway:





Chavirage de VIRBAC-PAPREC 70/vidéo hélico _by Virbac-Paprec_SailingTeam_





CHAVIRAGE DE VIRBAC-PAPREC 70/VIDÉO À BORD _by Virbac-Paprec_SailingTeam_

The MOD70 Virbac-Paprec capsized on Thursday afternoon during a training session ahead of the Transat Jacques Vabre, off Belle Ile.

Her two crew, Jean-Pierre Dick and Roland Jourdain were sailing 15-20 knots of wind. They were surprised by a strong gust and could not stop their multihull overturning. Their mast broke into three pieces.

Roland Jourdain was able to protect themselves under the hull, while Jean-Pierre Dick was violently ejected into the water.

Initially, both crew were declared safe and sound, with some back pain for Jean-Pierre. Eventually Dick was airlifted to hospital in Lorient. A compression of a vertebrae was diagnosed, it remains under observation for two days. 
...
Jean-Pierre Dick later commented: 'I'm still in shock. Everything went very quickly. I saw a strong gust get behind us. I released the mainsail carriage but it was obviously not not enough.

'Everything changed quickly, I fell from a great height, and I hit something and before falling into the water. It was violent.

'Fortunately, I was able to reach the hull very quickly. I could soon feel that I had back pain. We waited for rescue in sadness.' ...

Roland Jourdain commented: 'We were sailing in 15 knots of wind but with irregular established gusting to 18-20 knots. The conditions were manageable. Suddenly, there was a stronger gust than the others. The boat is rose and rose. It hovered for a few endless seconds. I released the Solent jib. We thought it was going to come back upright ... but the boat capsized.

'I was very afraid for Jean-Pierre. This is the first capsize I have experienced, I am very shaken. '

Sail-World.com : Virbac-Paprec 70 capsizes ahead of Transat Jacques Vabre - Video

- Jean-Pierre Dick, skipper de VIRBAC-PAPREC 70


----------



## PCP

*J 122 evolution*

The same hull, a new cabin, a new interior :

*The J122 E is quite simply more modern and is sure to correspond with the needs of an ever more demanding clientele".

Stéphane Roséo: "The aim of 'J Composites' was to modernise the boat's interior. We've gone for a more contemporary atmosphere with colours like white and chestnut brown for the upholstery and walnut panelling, on the principle of timeless appeal. For the exterior, I quickly suggested portlights to Didier Le Moal. It was essential to have increased natural light in the saloon".*

J/122 Evolution | Key Yachting

Even so I don't like the dark wood and the color combination. I hope they will have more wood and color otions


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Jean Pierre-Dick capsizes his Mod 70 (70ft trimaran)*



PCP said:


> That's the second time a Mod 70 capsizes recently. These babes are fast...but very tricky to sail specially with a two men crew. I wonder how it is going to be on the Route du Rhum when they will be solo sailed.


Horrible&#8230; 
There wasn't even that much wind! What went wrong? These high-tech machines have gyroscopes, automatic pressure release equipment etc. to avoid this in much worse circumstances.
Luckily nobody got seriously hurt and rescue was readily available. Imagine the same scene in the middle of the Atlantic and in really bad weather&#8230;

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: JPK 10.80/Sunfast 3600*



PCP said:


> Yes you are right about that but it makes no sense in what regards cruising and I don't know if Jeanneau is going to purpose another interior. If they intended to do so they would have presented it on the boat project. They didn't and when things are not thought from the beginning sometimes modifications are very costly and big companies are very renitent to change anything that has to do with molds.
> 
> On the contrary their closest competitor, JPK 10.80, previewed from the beginning two interior layouts, one similar to the one from Jeanneau, with two lateral settees (that have a forward view) and one for cruising maximizing the galley.
> 
> Both boats are very similar in weight, beam, draft, ballast and hull design, having the JPK a bit more form stability (a bit more beam) and a bit less ballast but the differences are really very small: The JPK has more 5 cm of draft, less 100kg of ballast (1900 to 2000kg) and more 10cm of beam (3.65 to 3.55) the keels are similar and the JPK is 300kg heavier (4800 to 4500kg)...but regarding that what counts is the real weight of the boat, not the one that is intended. They are not always the same, I would say rarely are the same
> 
> The JPK 10.80 should be almost ready.


Not forseeing a cruising version is indeed a serious mistake from Jeanneau. Image building (Transquadra) is one thing, selling boats to a broader public is something else. Especially in these difficult times when even reputated yards such as Del Pardo are struggling for survival.

Concerning the JPK 10.80, I once again fully agree (cf. our discussion on page 448 of this wonderful thread).

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Re: Jean Pierre-Dick capsizes his Mod 70 (70ft trimaran)*



EricKLYC said:


> Horrible&#8230;
> There wasn't even that much wind! What went wrong? These high-tech machines have gyroscopes, automatic pressure release equipment etc. to avoid this in much worse circumstances.
> ...
> 
> Eric


Yes, I thought about that. Fact is that the boat goes over 45º without any sail being dramatically released. We can see only minor adjustments in the sails trying to compensate the increase in wind.

Maybe because they were being filmed they disconnected the safety safeguards and were trying to sail out the gust doing some spectacular sailing with the boat flying only on one amas with a lot of heel. I cannot find any other explanation for the sails not being fully released when the boat started to heel. The truth is that is a very difficult boat to sail and everything happened very quickly.

Well, the images are spectacular but I guess it was not that kind of spectacle they were trying to give something went very wrong and happily nobody was seriously hurt...but it could have been otherwise.

cheers

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

I have seen some pics on facebook, but nothing so far elsewhere. Jeanneau has a new boat coming out, the SO 349. Looks nicer than the 33i that it replaces, not as boxy as the 379, more like the 409 is with IMHO better lines all around. A performance and std rig etc is being speced. BUT< if the performance is anything like the other xx9 series boats from Jeanneau, the Performance options will be nothing more than nicer/easier features from a sailing standpoint from what I can see. IE line control cars, both main and genoa. an extra winch along with larger sheet winches, spin gear std.....tri radial sails, and sometimes a 135 genoa vs a 110.....nothing I would look for, like a deeper lead keel option, taller rig by a meter or two depending upon the length..........

I have also not seen anthing about Jeanneau doing a 2nd interior option. A 2 cabin with a front V berth and rear head would be my preferred interior if I could choose an option. 

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Cruising on a Boreal 47*


----------



## PCP

*OVNI evolution 52*

and the competition. The movie is just a bad presentation but on the link you will find interesting stuff.






HANAMI II: The ALUBAT 52: a new look at an iconic name ...


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 30: new movie*

Beautiful boat, beautiful movie






The new Pogo-30 2013 from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Pogo 30: new movie*



PCP said:


> Beautiful boat, beautiful movie


A very nice video indeed .

One could almost forget that Structures is first of all a boatyard for racers. Class 40, Mini 6.50, in both categories they are working on new designs (40 S3, Pogo 3).

But what I like most in this video is the testimony of their inidividual employees. 
From before ordering to past delivery we have visited the yard 11 times and it always striked us how involved every single one of these (few) girls and (many) guys are.

Truthful people, to us this is a important added value.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Watch out for the girls!!!!*

They are training hard in their pink boat and they have hell of a skipper that has already showed that if she gets a good boat she can beat most of the competition, men included.

Nice images, nice pink boat, nice girls


----------



## PCP

*Comet 41s (my boat).*

Everybody has been posting nice videos of their nice boats here and I had only posted pictures. Fact is that I am a reasonable photographer and have not any experience with a video camera. Besides since I sail alone with my wife that is not a great help even if she is progressing, when things are interesting I am to busy. I have not a Gopro and have to make the movie, that is not practical with situations that need a good hand at the wheel and attention on the sails.

Anyway, here comes a first try. The conditions were not great for an exciting movie and I was minimizing the boat roll since my wife was a bit seasick: I could had more sail out, I would be a bit faster but the motion of the boat would be harder...so since I want my wife happy, that's the best I could get.


----------



## PCP

*RC 44 championship, Portuguese round.*

Great race with the local team (Cascais) missing narrowly the victory but winning several races. Great weather for sailing with 18k winds, great fun, great video.






These boats are very interesting they are very similar to the old AC cup monohulls but with half the size. Incredible boats upwind and very difficult to sail downwind. These boats really need a great crew to take advantage of their speed potential.


----------



## PCP

*Nord Stream Race - nice movie!*


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Pogo 30: new movie*



EricKLYC said:


> A very nice video indeed .
> 
> One could almost forget that Structures is first of all a boatyard for racers. Class 40, Mini 6.50, in both categories they are working on new designs (40 S3, Pogo 3).
> 
> But what I like most in this video is the testimony of their inidividual employees.
> From before ordering to past delivery we have visited the yard 11 times and it always striked us how involved every single one of these (few) girls and (many) guys are.
> 
> Truthful people, to us this is a important added value.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


can't wait to see what they do with 36-38 ft!


----------



## PCP

*Solo sailing on the North of Europe.*

It is growing fast. The main race is the sølvroret. in 2012, 15 racers in 2013, 85 and they come from sevearaL North European countries:

Sølvroret.dk - The Challenge

Some images of this year's edition:


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat postponed:*

It should have started today but big winds on the Biscay bay led to a postponement.


----------



## PCP

*Barcolana, one of the biggest regattas in the world.*

More than 1500 sailboats.... Esimit won for the 4th consecutive time on an edition with very light wind.

Look what happen when 1500 sailboats try to start a race without almost any wind


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Comet 41s (my boat).*



PCP said:


> Everybody has been posting nice videos of their nice boats here and I had only posted pictures. Fact is that I am a reasonable photographer and have not any experience with a video camera. Besides since I sail alone with my wife that is not a great help even if she is progressing, when things are interesting I am to busy. I have not a Gopro and have to make the movie, that is not practical with situations that need a good hand at the wheel and attention on the sails.
> 
> Anyway, here comes a first try. The conditions were not great for an exciting movie and I was minimizing the boat roll since my wife was a bit seasick: I could had more sail out, I would be a bit faster but the motion of the boat would be harder...so since I want my wife happy, that's the best I could get.


EMI blocked the video here in Sweden, I guess you singed too loud surfing down the waves...

Regards,
Anders


----------



## Faster

*Re: Comet 41s (my boat).*



JAndersB said:


> EMI blocked the video here in Sweden, I guess you singed too loud surfing down the waves...
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Here in Canada too...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Comet 41s (my boat).*



JAndersB said:


> EMI blocked the video here in Sweden, I guess you singed too loud surfing down the waves...
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


The music is from a very unknown Portuguese band I thought nobody was going to notice.

Does anyone has problems regarding that video?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Comet 41s (my boat).*



PCP said:


> The music is from a very unknown Portuguese band I thought nobody was going to notice.
> 
> Does anyone has problems regarding that video?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Mine is blocked for "inappropriate material":laugher

Try loading on YouTube and then copy us!


----------



## PCP

Sorry guys, I am new at posting on youtube.

Please try again and tell me if it is alright now.


----------



## Faster

That's got it, Paulo..


----------



## PCP

*Comet 41s*

For complementing that video some recent images of a sister ship sailing.






They have showed the two wheel version on the Genoa boat show (two weeks ago) and the boat received a lot of attention.


----------



## PCP

*Les Voiles de St Tropez 2013*


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

I like the last video, a bunch of old still looking good boats in and amongst the new ones....pretty site, all around.

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Generali Solo 2013 - Solo sailing*



blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I like the last video, a bunch of old still looking good boats in and amongst the new ones....pretty site, all around.
> 
> Marty


Yes, in Saint Tropez you can find the true spirit of sailing and we can see that great sailboats are forever. The old ones even if slower do it in style...and not that slow

Some more videos that I think you will appreciate from the last solo race in Benetau Figaro II. The images are from the in-port regattas and I find them incredible. They show how good those sailors are.

One thing is to take solo a boat on the Ocean other is sailing it trough a traditional regatta with more than a dozen of other boats very close: They are all one man band and they play quite well even if compared with a full band very impressive.
















The Generali solo was won by Adrien Hardy with the great Gildas Morvan in second. That was enough for Morvan to won (for the 4th time) the French elite solo championship.

Generali Solo 2013

Andrien Hardi is one of the young (29) solo French sailors on the rise.


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 349*



blt2ski said:


> I have seen some pics on facebook, but nothing so far elsewhere. Jeanneau has a new boat coming out, the SO 349. Looks nicer than the 33i that it replaces, not as boxy as the 379, more like the 409 is with IMHO better lines all around. A performance and std rig etc is being speced. BUT< if the performance is anything like the other xx9 series boats from Jeanneau, the Performance options will be nothing more than nicer/easier features from a sailing standpoint from what I can see. IE line control cars, both main and genoa. an extra winch along with larger sheet winches, spin gear std.....tri radial sails, and sometimes a 135 genoa vs a 110.....nothing I would look for, like a deeper lead keel option, taller rig by a meter or two depending upon the length..........
> 
> I have also not seen anthing about Jeanneau doing a 2nd interior option. A 2 cabin with a front V berth and rear head would be my preferred interior if I could choose an option.
> 
> Marty


I would say even more nicer than the 409 if we take into consideration that it is much more difficult to design a nice looking 34ft than a 40ft.

It looks like Marc Lombard at his best. For what I can tell for the two pictures seems not only a nice hull but also a fast one if we consider main market cruising boats. The interior is also very well designed, with a separated shower and all.





I want to see and know more. Do you have the dimensions?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo, 
A c&p from a thread in the jeanneau owners site for specs.

This is the provisional spec:

Overall length: 10.34 m / 33' 11"
Hull length: 9.97 m / 32' 8"
Waterline length: 9.40 m / 30' 10"
Beam: 3.44 m / 11' 3"
Displacement: 5350 kg / 11795 lbs
Standard draft : 1.98 m / 6' 5"
Shoal draft: 1.49 m / 4' 10"
Engine Yanmar: 21 Hp / 15 kW
Sail area - standard: 57m² / 613 sq ft
Sail area - performance: 60 m² / 646 sq ft
CE Category: A6/B8
Designers: Marc Lombard - Jeanneau Design

Worth noting this is a Mark Lombard design (same as 379). Rig looks different with full beam shrouds and a rumour that the performance version may sport a "fat head" main. Also there are twin rudders peaking out of the image, maybe will be on both versions? Would be good to think there maybe a lift keel to follow.

Read more: Sun Odyssey 349 announced | Jeanneau Owners Network Forum

I personally had not noticed the seperate shower. I HAVE noticed that jeanneau went away with that option in the 379 and 409. That is something I liked about the previous 34-40' Jeanneau models from a cruising standpoint. Well, I should say the Admiral liked that option. The Cabin Boy does not get a say in this sometimes.

HERE is that thread with a few more interior pics etc.

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Sun Odyssey 349*

Yes, definitively we can see the two rudders here:



and the boat has not only an interior that looks good on the plan, but also on the 3D images:







But I think that happens with this one what happens with the Oceanis 38: The boat looks like a performance cruiser but it is just a nice main market cruiser, that was probably what it was intended. The weight is not convincing in what regards the possibility of this boat to be a performance cruiser.

As usual on Jeanneau the name of the boat is deceiving in what regards its true length: This is not a 35ft boat but a 33ft boat. For instance a Comet 31 that has about the same hull length weights 3900kg while this Jeanneau weights 5350kg.

Marty, anything about the boat ballast? I mean weight?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*

Interesting comments about the postponement of the race:

* In the Mini Transat, the recurring question in Douarnenez is why did you not start on Sunday with good weather prevailing over the bay? The answer lies at Cape Finisterre on the northwestern tip of Spain. This is where the singlehanders might be caugh out in the cold, beating in winds of 35 knots in a big sea. Critical conditions for boats as small as 6.50m sailed singlehanded. 
....
It is understandable that in these conditions the race committee has chosen to postpone the start of the Mini Transat. Moreover, they must now find a big enough window to stop it slamming shut on the fingers of the fleet. However, the current situation offers intervals of only 48 hours, which is not sufficient to allow all competitors to cross the obstacle of the Bay of Biscay and make their descent along the western coast of Galicia.

They have to sail about 450 miles before meeting more manageable conditions. To ensure the safe passage of the fleet what is needed is a weather window of about three full days. But the pressure systems currently feeding the near Atlantic are at relatively southern latitudes, making the dominant winds southerly to southwesterly. The famous jump to a nor'wester, following the passing of a depression, does not have time to establish itself before a new system takes its place.

Faced with such a situation, the organising team has opted to wait for favorable weather window to reach Lanzarote.

One alternative that could be considered is breaking the first leg into two separate sections. The first could take the fleet from Douarnenez to Gijon, a Spanish port that can easily accommodate a fleet of 84 Minis.

... At Gijon, the soloists can await another weather window to round Cape Finisterre. The advantage of the operation: by splitting the leg it considerably reduces the size of the good weather window necessary to open the road to the south. But today, no decision has yet been taken, as this solution raises a number of logistical problems. Next rendez-vous will be at 18.00 tomorrow . The race has chosen to play the card of transparency with the competitors : this is also in the spirit of the Mini.

by Solene Rennuit *

http://www.minitransat.fr/actualites/la-porte-etroite?lang=en


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

I have not seen any figures for ballast as of yet. I do agree that the base wt seems heavy in regards a true performance boat stand point. Get it into the low to mid 4KG area, along with some sail area, approaching 65-70sm, and draft closer to 2-2.2M, and then yes, this would be more in the performance range, or what I would call a race/cruise boat. Heck, my boat at 6500 lbs has 540sq ft of sa, for a total of 24.x-1 fully up and running. Std 100% triangle is 18-1. 

FOr where I am with ave winds in the 5-15 range, one needs a reasonably light boat, low wetted surface area, along with a tall rig to get full sailing benefit of the wind. A deeper keel, with a lead bulb, total mast ht in the 48-52' range would be ideal at least around here! To me it is better to be reefing or reducing to a smaller LP% jib in the 10-15 range, than worry about in the 20 knot range as some "BS's" boats do. 

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Comet 31s*

And since we are talking about the new Jeanneau 349 and used the Comet 31 has reference let's have a new look at it. When I had posted about it (below) the boat was not even on the Comar site and had not been tested so now there is a lot more information available.

They seem to be very different boats in size (they are in weight 3900kg to 5350kg but on the interior space, length and beam they are closer even if Jeanneau calls to a a boat with a overall length and hull length of 10.34m, 9.97m a 349 and Comet, to a boat with 10.44 and 9.74m calls 31. In fact the difference on the hull length is just 23cm and on the overall lenght the Comet is bigger. Regarding beam and draft both boats are also very similar, being the beamier one the Comet but just for 4cms while the std draft while similar is a bit bigger on the Jeanneau (1.98 to 1.90).



PCP said:


> I have passed the new year's eve in Rome and among other things went to have a look at where the Romans keep their boats. Mostly they keep them out of the marina on the river banks, a really nice place and I found there this beauty:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> That's a brand new Comet 31 s, so new that they don't have yet pictures in their site
> 
> The boat is absolutely gorgeous one of those things you just want to have and I bet that it is a lot of fun to sail. Look at this specs:
> 
> Loa.	10,44 m
> Hull lenght	9,74 m
> beam	3,48 m
> Draft	1,90 m
> weight	3.900 Kg
> ballast std	1.090 kg
> 
> Engine 20 hp
> Diesel tank	45 lt
> Water tank 170 lt
> 
> Sails
> Main	32.80 m2
> Genoa 108%	24.00 m2
> Gennaker	85.00 m2
> 
> Comar Yachts
> CE
> Category	B-A
> Price	69.000,00 €
> 
> The numbers look as good as the boat. With 28% of B/D ratio but with all the weight on a bulb at 1.90m and a lot of form stability this small animal can carry a lot of sail and a geenaker with 85m2 for 3900kg is a lot of sail
> 
> This beauty should plane very easily: a delightful rocket sailboat that seems to have the potential for coastal cruising and the most amazing is that they say that the boat is certified for offshore work (RCD A category). On a light boat of this size that means a very well designed boat and a seaworthy boat for its size with good stability parameters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really like this one


It looked good to me and time proved that it looked good to many because the 31 quickly become the more successful boat (in what regards sells) on the Comet line. it also reveled itself as a very fast boat with cruising potential.

The boat testers have been very enthusiastic about the boat. For instance the Italian SVN (the translation is mine):

*"Its fast, agile, very responsive on the tiller. It has a big interior volume and a cockpit that can take 5 with ease. On the interior it has space for 4, even for extensive cruising.

It is a solid boat...we find that it has an optimum price/quality relation.

It is a boat that points to the sportive sailor that wants to sail a lot. It is indicated for fast cruising, even solo and with 4 it can do well in regatta, specially in IRC."*

http://www.comaryachts.it/images/Boats/CY SOLOVELA WEB 08 2012.pdf

This year I could have a good look at the boat again (there was one at the place where I keep my boat), and talk about it with one of the knowledgeable guys from Comar. Here are the photos I have taken:







As you can see the boat has an unusual transom, I mean it is one with all the beam brought back but faraway from the beam of a boat maximized for downwind sailing like the Pogo 30. The Pogo 30 has a beam of 3.70m and the Comet only 3.48m.

While the Pogo (and the boats that share that type of hull has a chine that limits heeling and maximizes it at a relatively low angle of heel this one has a rounded smooth lateral surface on the side of the transom. The explanation is that they wanted an easy boat downwind but without handicapping upwind performance. That soft surface allows the boat to hell more without the drag caused by the chine at considerable heel angles, taking advantage of the RM provided by the ballast. They said to me that it works and that the boat is a good upwind boat notwithstanding that type of transom that allows a more stable downwind ride that is very important to solo sailing.





The boat has a good interior with a big head but a galley smaller than the one on the Jeanneau. The first boats come with colorful galleys that did not make for a consensual opinion so they can offer those but offer also more discrete options that I think go better with the rest of the interior that is a nice and good quality one.









The price is a nice surprise since it goes in pair with the one of a First 30 and Comets used to be a lot more expensive than First.

Some more photos and a video:


----------



## PCP

*Solaris 37 video*

Beautiful boat, great video on Yacht.de:

Solaris One 37 ? die edle Italienerin - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

If someone is thinking in buying a 37ft Halberg Rassy or a similar luxury boat (on that price range) and intend to sail more than motor have a look at this one. Very nice interior, great stability and cruising potential in a beautiful boat, inside and outside.

If you do not believe me maybe you have more confidence on the Yacht.De boat testers. They are the ones that test more boats for year and have an huge knowledge of what the boat market has to offer. They say about the Solaris 37:

*"It is one of the finest production yachts of our time. The Solaris is not only excellent in quality, but also excellent in sailing"*. (the translation is mine).

It is difficult to be better than excellent


----------



## PCP

*The RCD (Recreational craft directive) had some alterations.*

Minor ones I would say. Most of them regards engine and pollution (that you can find here: REPORT on the proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on recreational craft and personal watercraft - A7-0213/2012

But some interesting ones regarding definitions and these modifications show good sense. They are important because they are pointed to provide to the general public information about each type of boat that comes from its certification class. I and many always thought that the typification of each class was misleading. Now the classes are the same but the definitions are more clear and appropriate.

*A - Ocean class* was: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

Now it is:* A class*- A recreational craft given design category A is considered to be designed for winds that may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions such as storm, violent storm, hurricane, tornado and extreme sea conditions or rogue waves.

*B - Offshore class* was: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

Now it is :* B class* -A recreational craft given design category B is considered to be designed for wind force up to, and including, 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m.

*C - Inshore Class* was: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

Now it is: *C class* - A watercraft given design category C is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m

*D - Sheltered waters class* was: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0,3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0,5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

Now it is *D class*: A watercraft given design category D is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0,3 m with occasional waves of 0,5 m maximum height.

REPORT on the proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on recreational craft and personal watercraft - A7-0213/2012


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
Three posts up you posted some photos of a very nice interior. These are photos and not renderings. What boat is that? Is that the Comet? It looks very nicely done to me.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Three posts up you posted some photos of a very nice interior. These are photos and not renderings. What boat is that? Is that the Comet? It looks very nicely done to me.


Yes, it is the Comet 31s. One of the Comet characteristics is that they have good quality interiors for a performance boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
That is a superb looking boat, inside and out. That is my kind of boat.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> That is a superb looking boat, inside and out. That is my kind of boat.


Fat ass and all. Who would imagine. But you are right, the transom is pulled back but the beam is not that big, for instance the Oceanis 34 that is only 20cms bigger has almost more 20cm of beam.

I suspect that you, like me, have many types of boats that you would call "my type of boat"

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Antartic sailing and a boat for doing it.*

A steel one and an old design but obviously capable of doing it safely even if it seems to me that the skipper has too much work on that wheel. It is also a center-boarder and that makes sense to me.

Even if an old design this one was designed expressly for bad weather: It is not very nice, in and outbut then it would be difficult or impossible to make a really beautiful boat with a great interior for sailing in bad weather.

Nice videos:


----------



## blt2ski

paulo,

For me how I sail, I would go with the comet. BUT, if I have to include SWMBO! then the 349 would probably win out. I feel in a generally speaking manner, the 349 will have a few more bells and whistles about it vs the C31. The C31 will be the better overall performance boat. The 349 meets the needs of the SHE's that want to be spoiled inside. Unfortunately, it appears that the rig was left a big smallish to really do what that hull could probably do performance wise.

Marty


----------



## PCP

*Comet 31 / Sun Odyssey 349*



blt2ski said:


> paulo,
> 
> For me how I sail, I would go with the comet. BUT, if I have to include SWMBO! then the 349 would probably win out. I feel in a generally speaking manner, the 349 will have a few more bells and whistles about it vs the C31. The C31 will be the better overall performance boat. The 349 meets the needs of the SHE's that want to be spoiled inside. Unfortunately, it appears that the rig was left a big smallish to really do what that hull could probably do performance wise.
> 
> Marty


No doubt Marty. If we love that to the women (the ones that are not sailors) they would always chose a main market cruiser over a performance cruiser: They have generally more interior space and have a bit better cruising accommodations and the 349 even managed to have a micro wave on that small boat. Of course wives have normally a lot of influence in what regards choosing a sailboat and I had a lot of work teaching mine about other aspects of sailboats than interior accommodations.

She knows more than most and that is a good thing because she, as most, wives has the power of veto over any sailboat I choose.

The deal is this: I chose the type of sailboat (performance boat of course) and between those she can say the ones she would not want and the ones that she considers having enough cruising amenities (an she is quite good judging that). It is more than fair since we live on the sailboat 3 or 4 months on a year.

For instance she vetoed the Pogo...but she likes the boat excepting the interior and says, well, this one with a nice interior

If she would chose one without my interference I believe she would be undecided between a RM 1260 and a Southerly 42 RST. Not bad choices I would say. Maybe when I am older

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*European boat of the year 2014*

The chief testers of the main European magazines are already testing the nominated sailboats for the contest. These are the guys and the lady. They seem sailors to me



They are testing about 20 sailboats, most of them beauties and they are paid for that. That's the kind of job I would not mind to have

The testing had been done in Southampton (England) and Porto Venere, Italy.

They had similar conditions on both locations including strong winds (gusting 40k) to the point that the smaller boats with electric engines had to be towed out of the port.

Certainly we will have great videos out of those tests.

These are some of the tested sailboats while being tested:


----------



## robelz

I am a little bit confused: Usually the boats nomineed are new ones but the Malango 888 - inspite beeing a fantastic boat - isn't that new...


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> I am a little bit confused: Usually the boats nomineed are new ones but the Malango 888 - inspite beeing a fantastic boat - isn't that new...


What do you mean, not new because we talk here about here at more than a year ago? A boat is nominated as boat of the year if it is presented on that year or on the previous year after the boats having being already nominated for the contest. probably it is the case with the Malango 888 that is a new boat that followed the 870.

Présentation du Malango 888

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Salona 38*

A nice video on a favorite boat, one that can win races at top level and that can even be used as a party boat

look at the video:






Регата 13//38 Хорватия 04-2013 Яхта Cherry Salona-38 from Roman Strokov on Vimeo.

Those are good news, I mean the boat is so successful that they have in Croatia a full flotilla that can be used for racing events with similar boats. You can invite some friends and have a private race on an wonderful setting in even conditions on fast boats. It seems that it was what these Russians have made and I would say that they seem to be enjoying the boat and the party

It seems also that the Australians have discovered the boat. I can only read good things from Australian boat testers. Maybe we will see some on this year's Sydney Hobart?

http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/Sailing+Yachting, 11-2012.pdf

http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/Trade a Boat, 10-2012.pdf


----------



## PCP

*SCA and the Girls*

They are doing this the right way. No true top level sailing without sponsoring and the sponsor has see advantages coming out of the deal. It seems SCA is building a new image and a world recognition of the brand. It seems they are going to get well out of this...and sailing too.


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*

The delay starts to be embarrassing. Last news:

*"Back on the weather
To understand the situation, imagine the dividing line from the Brittany Penninsular and Cape Finisterre. This highway is, for the moment, being swept by the western margin of the strong to very strong southwesterly winds. Inshore of that line the conditions are much more manageable, but it's a potential trap for competitors who may be at risk of being caught in the bay and not being able to get out. At the moment the winds are particularly strong between the Ortegal peninsula and Cape Finisterre, where gusts of over 50 knots are expected in the coming days.

The Gijon option
This situation has led the race committee not to activate the option of a stopover in Gijon. Given current projections, the risk was too great that the fleet would find itself stuck in the Asturian port, unable to safely navigate the 180 miles separating Gijon and the tip of Galicia, in the face of strong winds from the west. This option can be activated only if the Spanish stopover permitted a maximum wait of two to three days before crossing the tip of Spain. The race director does not discount any options in the interests of the competitors."*

Un code couleurs pour le départ | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

interesting weather information:

http://www.minitransat.fr/meteo?lang=en


----------



## blt2ski

"For instance she vetoed the Pogo...but she likes the boat excepting the interior and says, well, this one with a nice interior"

SWMBO has done this to me with pictures a few times too. Some J-boats have a race vs cruise interior, she sees the rather bleak, goes YUCK! See's the nicer one with some wood etc around, she purr's! She did that to a degree with the Pogo 40. The true race, no way, the nicer one, possibly. but even that is a bit slim. She does like the look of the boat.

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> "For instance she vetoed the Pogo...but she likes the boat excepting the interior and says, well, this one with a nice interior"
> 
> SWMBO has done this to me with pictures a few times too. Some J-boats have a race vs cruise interior, she sees the rather bleak, goes YUCK! See's the nicer one with some wood etc around, she purr's! She did that to a degree with the Pogo 40. The true race, no way, the nicer one, possibly. but even that is a bit slim. She does like the look of the boat.
> 
> Marty


My wife was accompanied me every year on the last 10 years or more to the biggest boat shows in Europe, Dusseldorf, Hamburg, Paris, Barcelona and have being inside a lot of sailing boats and has also a lot of cruising experience.

She is not easily deceived and she is a lot better than me in what regards the lack of practical details, lack of storage, inefficiencies in a galley or head.

When I see a nice boat I say wow how nice it would be sailing this and tend to forget about the rest. She is there to remind me that the a cruising boat is also for living for a considerable period of time

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

Lidköpings Båtsnickeri has bought Najad. They are the company behind Swedestar. They will manufacture in Henån on Orust, close to olda premises, in coorporation with Orust Yacht Service. First boat at Boot, Dusseldorf.

Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Lidköpings Båtsnickeri has bought Najad. They are the company behind Swedestar. They will manufacture in Henån on Orust, close to olda premises, in coorporation with Orust Yacht Service. First boat at Boot, Dusseldorf.
> 
> Anders


Yes, the midget saves the giant to go downhill and give it an hand. Is that sensible? or it will end up like the last owner, Northwest, a solid motor boat company that ended up bankrupt too?

I don't see a future in that. For surviving Najad needed a big change, a reformulation of its dimension or a large injections of capital to robotize the production to lower significantly costs. I don't see any of that possible, the labor laws in Sweden are very restrictive and a small company has not the means for a big capital injection.

It will probably be a dream for Swedstar that will end up in nightmare.

Curiously Maxi yachts that was owned by Najad seems to me with a lot better chances now that it is owned by Delphia, now a medium sized company making 150 boats a year.

By the way I always wonder how, a bit more than a decade ago Delphia had managed, without any nautical savoir faire to go right with the Delphia 40 from the beginning, I mean with in what regards building techniques. I know now that the molds had been made by Comet and they had a lot of collaboration and transfer of know how. Comar/Comet is still today the dealer in italy.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

PCP said:


> My wife was accompanied me every year on the last 10 years or more to the biggest boat shows in Europe, Dusseldorf, Hamburg, Paris, Barcelona and have being inside a lot of sailing boats and has also a lot of cruising experience.
> 
> She is not easily deceived and she is a lot better than me in what regards the lack of practical details, lack of storage, inefficiencies in a galley or head.
> 
> When I see a nice boat I say wow how nice it would be sailing this and tend to forget about the rest. She is there to remind me that the a cruising boat is also for living for a considerable period of time
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


While we haven't done the extensive boat show tours, the relationship you describe sounds very familiar!...


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> What do you mean, not new because we talk here about here at more than a year ago? A boat is nominated as boat of the year if it is presented on that year or on the previous year after the boats having being already nominated for the contest. probably it is the case with the Malango 888 that is a new boat that followed the 870.
> 
> Présentation du Malango 888
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Ok, I was wrong. Tought it was 3 or 4 years old...


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Ok, I was wrong. Tought it was 3 or 4 years old...


Probably you were confusing with the bigger brother, the 999 that looks a like the smaller one.

Présentation du Malango 999

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Jimmy Cornell new boat: the Garcia 45*

I have posted this on another thread:



PCP said:


> You mean Jimmy Cornell, the guy that circumnavigate 3 times and end up discovery the French aluminum centerboarders?
> 
> The last one with an OVNI 43 (70 000 nm).
> 
> I guess you would be interested in this article:
> 
> Jimmy Cornell answers questions about OVNI yachts | Cornell Sailing Publications and Events
> 
> Except that Jimmy has commissioned a new boat and it is not an OVNI or even an Alubat. It is also a French aluminum centerboarder but made by Garcia, and a one off, his dream boat. I am very curious about it.
> 
> Garcia belongs to Allures (the hulls are made there) and has a long history in what regards making big high quality aluminum boats, most of them centerboarders.
> 
> Certainly a boat to follow on the interesting boat thread


And here it is:











http://www.cornellsailing.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/Yachting World-aventura4-oct2013.pdf

Nos voiliers

Jimmy Cornell?s boat a great success at La Rochelle boat show | Cornell Sailing Publications and Events

*Jimmy Cornell, the doyen of world cruising, has chosen GARCIA YACHTING to build his new yacht to confront the challenges of the Northwest Passage.

Jimmy Cornell, best-selling nautical author, founder of the ARC and organiser of several round the world rallies, is preparing for a voyage that promises to be the culmination of his sailing life. During the summer of 2014, Jimmy Cornell will sail his new yacht in his latest project, the Blue Planet Odyssey, a global event aiming to raise awareness of the effects of climate change. A transit of the Northwest Passage in the company of other like-minded sailors will highlight the direct consequences of those changes.

To accomplish that voyage, Jimmy conceived the ideal boat, perfectly suited for both high latitude and tropical sailing. In recognition of their skills and expertise, the team at Garcia Yachting consider it an honour and privilege to have been asked to build this exceptional yacht for an exceptional sailor.

"Building this yacht for Jimmy Cornell is like a dream come true," says Stephan Constance, chairman of Grand Large Yachting. "It's like producing an album for your rock idol. For the last few months all of us at Garcia Yachting have responded with all our passion and given our best to turn this ambitious project into reality."

At their Norman boatyard in Condé-sur-Noireau (Calvados), the skilful team of Garcia Yachting is giving birth to the Garcia Exploration 45, an aluminium yacht of 13.50 meters incorporating some unique features never seen in a yacht of this type before. The prototype of Jimmy Cornell will be launched in April 2014 and named Aventura IV, in line with the previous boats of the famous navigator.
...
"I had to quickly find a suitable boat for that voyage," states Jimmy Cornell, "and, having looked around at all that was available, I decided that finally I had an unmissable opportunity to come up with a concept which would be nearest to that elusive ideal cruising boat. I was extremely fortunate in being able to infect with my enthusiasm both the team at Garcia Yachting, in my view the best aluminium yacht builders in the world, and also Olivier Racoupeau, one of France's top yacht designers".

This exciting collaboration proves the validity of what has been for the last ten years the philosophy of Grand Large Yachting, a group of specialist boat builders made up of the brands Allures Yachting, Garcia Yachting and Outremer Yachting. For the founders, Stephan Constance and Xavier Desmarest, the key to the success of their venture lies in the ability of their teams to respond to the needs of each client by providing all necessary expertise. This requires and even bolder approach when it comes to a project pioneered by Jimmy Cornell.

A truly unique yacht
"My requirements were very clear: a strong, fast, comfortable, functional and easily handled boat perfectly suited for both high latitude and tropical sailing," explains Jimmy Cornell."What was new, however, was my insistence on a deck saloon that would ensure almost all-round visibility.

This, and an inside steering position, was something that had never been tried before on a centreboard yacht. The designer has produced what I believe to be the perfect solution: a comfortable and spacious deck saloon with 270° vision, also ideal for watchkeeping and navigation."
....*

News

Too much talk for something that is simple. In fact the new boat seems to have the same hull of the Allures 45, probably reinforced, eventually with more ballast (since it is 3.3t heavier) with a deck saloon configuration and an "old" inside steering station . Fact is that the Allures 45 provides already a decent lateral view and a passable forward view from the navigation table and seat, having the possibility to be steered from there. This one will provide a better one, similar to the one that is offered standard on the Boreal 44.

That does not mean that the Garcia 45 is not a great boat adapted to navigation on high latitudes, more that it is not that different from a Allures 45, on another configuration and reinforced.

Jimmy Cornell intends to do with the boat this:



Blue Planet Odyssey 2014-17 - A New Round the World Sailing Event

Let's see what happens. This year things went wrong for the ones that tried to do the Northwest passage, with many boats stuck in the ice. I hope next year they will find better conditions otherwise things can go wrong.


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

Looking over some numbers, if the Salona 33 were placed into a battle tween the comet and the 349, I would give the Salona the nod. Dang near as big as the 349, bigger than the comet, 70sqM of sa, with a base wt of about 4900kgs. so heavier than the comet, lighter than the 349, most SA, so probably from a what I was looking for earlier, the best bang for the buck, speed performance etc of boats from what I can tell in this about 10M or 33' range. An X-yacht may come close too. its time for bed where I am, so will leave you folks in the early part of tomorrow to worry about this. Oh, and how is tomorrow shaping up? Fuzy is probably the most through tomorrow than most of us......LOLOL

Marty


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Looking over some numbers, if the Salona 33 were placed into a battle tween the comet and the 349, I would give the Salona the nod. Dang near as big as the 349, bigger than the comet, 70sqM of sa, with a base wt of about 4900kgs. so heavier than the comet, lighter than the 349, most SA, so probably from a what I was looking for earlier, the best bang for the buck, speed performance etc of boats from what I can tell in this about 10M or 33' range. An X-yacht may come close too. its time for bed where I am, so will leave you folks in the early part of tomorrow to worry about this. Oh, and how is tomorrow shaping up? Fuzy is probably the most through tomorrow than most of us......LOLOL
> 
> Marty


You know that I like Salona boats (particularly in what regards quality/price/performance) and the 33 is no exception. Probably it ill be faster than the Comet on light winds and will point better upwind. It will be worse as a solo boat and considerably less fast downwind, specially with lots of wind. It is a much more classical boat, a more narrow one and with a more traditional transom (that favors upwind sailing).

They say on the Comet 31 boat test that the boat will get good results racing in IRS but I doubt that the Salona 33 would be worse, specially in ORC.

Two very different boats, but both fast in their own way and both with a good cruising interior and an good price.


----------



## donjuanluis

I am not qualified to talk about this matter, but I can read and understand most of it. In my very unique opinion, the venture between Cornell and Garcia seems to have a big marketing profile. 
There are other options, and If I ever have the resources and time to make a high latitud passage, like Cape Horn, I would consider the options I found here: Sirius-Werft Plön | 40 DS | 40 DS.
Regards and keep it up.


----------



## PCP

*2014 Voile Magazine boat of the year: Dehler 38*

We have talked here about this contest by the second biggest French magazine one that involves its readers.

The contest has nothing to do with the European boat of the year and its way less interesting. They have no categories and put all boats in the same bag and that makes not much sense.

Also while on the European boat of the year the testers are all top professionals with a huge knowledge of the boats on the market, having sailed a huge number of them, here some few professional testers are mixed with many sailors that are far away from having that knowledge.

Anyway, the boat they end up choosing is always a good boat and the information we can take (many times reading between the lines) having so many new boats on the water at the same time is very interesting.

I found this year's contest particularly confusing but with some surprising revelations, for instance:

They had on the water the new Oceanis 38, the cheap Varianta 37 and the Bavaria 37 with light wind conditions. The Varianta was way faster than the other two boats and that probably took away any possibility for an Oceanis 38 win but the Varianta did not pass top the 2th round of the contest: It had an older hull and the finish was not very good (even if better than the Varianta 44)

Another surprise, they had on the water the Xp33, the Pogo 30, the Sunfast 3600 the Mat 10.10 and the new version of the J122.

About that they say (the translation is mine): *"the J122 leads the way but the Sunfast 3600, the Mat 10.10, Xp 33 and Dehler 38 are not far away. The J88 is comfortably sailing among the big boats and on the first downwind ride with spinnaker we noticed that the Django goes with ease notwithstanding being one of the smaller boats. The Italia 13.98 that had started later come from behind and overtake everybody."*

It is good to remember that we are talking about light conditions (6/8K) where the bigger boat is not necessarily the faster boat. On this case it was and that says a lot about the YT 13.98 that with its luxury interior an all is a hell of a sailing boat even on light wind (the boat was one of the 2013 European boats of the year - Luxury class).

What is more strange about that description about boat performance it is not what it is said but what it is not said: Where the hell is the Pogo 30 or the RM 1360?

Well, there it is the Pogo 30 (the translation is mine):

*"Two boats are passing the buoys together, the Pogo 30 and the Winner 900????. Two boats with a very different conception: The Pogo 30 with a beamy modern powerful hull with a simplified interior and the winner with a much more classic hull with a much better interior. Unfortunately we could not judge definitively the performances between the two boats because the winner had not a spinnaker on board."*

The Pogo 30 and the Winner 900 side by side? Who would say

But the winner 900 did not pass to the 2th round (the Pogo had passed): like the Xp33, the Astus 20.2 and the Lagoon 39 they could only stay one day available, so they were excluded.

Anyway I would say that the performance of the winner 900 was absolutely remarkable for a boat with a great cruising interior.

Regarding the contest, the jury decided to eliminate all boats that had a hull already used on a previous version. It does not make any sense to me. If it was so why had they invited the boats to a contest where they would be forcefully eliminated? That was the case with the J122 and the Varianta.

The Dufour 410 was out "for lack of enthusiasm", the Bavaria 37 "did not manage to convince" the Iy 13.98 "because it had a rudder not very sensitive and was too expensive", the MAT 10.10 was eliminated God knows why. they say: "The Mat 10.10 was another case...having conquered the regatta sailors by its very good performance in light winds". It is difficult to understand how the boat could have conquered them in strong winds if they had not strong winds while testing and why the boat was eliminated.

Anyway the boats that passed to the second round were the Dehler 38, the Oceanis 38, the Sunfast 3600, the Rm 1360, the J88 and the Pogo 30.

All French boats except one, the Dehler 38 (the J88 is made in France) and that was surprisingly the one that had won by a large margin and I think that means a lot, I mean French sailors choosing a German boat? Only with very good reasons.

When I first talked here about the Dehler 38 I have said:

*"..this was one of the surprises and a good one. Contrary to the 41 (that was also there and that I visited too) the interior of the boat is very good. Not that the 41 has bad quality on the finish but the difference in design quality is huge.

A very beautiful boat with good storage space and a very clever and innovative head. In fact they managed to solve on the two cabin versions the access to the second cabin in a brilliant way and it works visually with the advantage of separating the toilet in two parts, one with an isolated head and shower, the other with the toilet part. Very clever and very functional.

... The boat is very stiff with a very good B/D ratio (32%) taking into consideration the very efficient keel. The rigging is well done (as in all Dehlers). You have only to chose between the one they call competition (C) and the standard version. But don't let the words mislead you, competition my ass, what you really have is a cheaper version and a more expensive one. ..

The main difference has to do with an epoxy cored hull with a synthetic core versus a balsa cored boat with regular resins. Probably also a wire rig versus a rod one and I don't know if the standard one has lead as ballast."*

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-368.html#post980468



PCP said:


> .. It seems to me a great boat, much better in what regards interior than the 41. .. I guess it is going to sell very well, and deserves it. Contrary of other boats on this segment the boat can be delivered in two versions, with two or three cabins,
> 
> A two cabin version is the way to go in what regards extensive cruising and will provide all storage space needed.
> 
> What can I say more? A beautiful and fast boat with a great stability that will be sold in two apparently equal versions, one very accessible and another one expensive. One will have a lead keel, epoxy cored hull over airex (or similar) a bigger mast and the other one will have a cored hull with normal resins over a balsa core, Iron keel, smaller mast.
> 
> The first one will be enough for most cruisers and I expect it to be the most sold by far. Regarding competition the main one will be from the Salona 38, a more traditional boat in the hull and interiors that regards price has a version correspondent to the basic one from Dehler cheaper and has a version correspondent to the top one from Dehler at the same price as the basic Dehler version. The Salona will have the added advantage of the stainless steel keel structure for the keel and shrouds but I never heard any complaints about Dehler solidity.
> ..
> Have a look:


The Dehler 38 won by a big margin, 27 points while the second, the J88 had 18 and the third, the Sunfast 3600 had 17. We cannot say that these guys have choose the Dehler 38 because they favor cruising boats. I remember that last year the boat that had won was the J 111.

It seems that it is not only me that considers the Dehler 38 a great sailing boat

A new look at the main test sail video on the web:
















But if you want to have a really perfect nice boat ask for one without that bath platform. See hoe much the boat look more lighter and elegant without it:


----------



## PCP

*Sirius 40 / Garcia 40*



donjuanluis said:


> I am not qualified to talk about this matter, but I can read and understand most of it. In my very unique opinion, the venture between Cornell and Garcia seems to have a big marketing profile.
> There are other options, and If I ever have the resources and time to make a high latitud passage, like Cape Horn, I would consider the options I found here: Sirius-Werft Plön | 40 DS | 40 DS.
> ...


Yes sure, Cornell and Allures are doing joint ventures from some time but Cornell after making several circumnavigations in different kinds of sailboats discovered the OVNI 43, made a circumnavigation in it (70 000nm) and declared that it was the best voyage boat he had ever sailed.






Then Allures appeared on the market and it is the same kind of boat, lighter and with a better stability and Cornell soon started to be interested. Their relation comes from his interest in the boat.

When time comes for a new boat (and probably he was thinking about that from the beginning) he asked Allures for big modifications on the Allures 45 and they decided to make a boat for him using the 45 hull, that is made by Garcia (Garcia belongs to allures and all their hulls are made there). For commercial reasons they decided to call it a Garcia even if Garcia is only making bigger boats.

This is his dream voyage boat and the least we can say is that the guy knows one or two things about it

I know well Sirius (this thread started with a Sirius) and even if it is a great boat it is a Luxury cruiser, not expressly designed as a voyage boat. Not saying that it cannot voyage only that it is not as good at that as a standard Allures 39.9 for instance, much less in high latitudes where the Aluminium offer a superior protection against ice.

Also in the case of any problem these type of boats (Aluminium centerboarders) can be beached for repairs, offering also an additional protection against grounding. Final a aluminium centerboard with an adequate ballast is one of the best boats to survive bad weather (it has a great dynamic stability).

the Garcia 45 is a reinforced boat and expressively built for an expedition. I am sure that it is more resistant than any production boat (almost 3t heavier than a standard Allures 45).

Regarding the Sirius 40 they have that project for years (and also one for a 43 that they seemed to have abandoned) but it seems that they have not find yet a client for the boat. Maybe you

The boats are very nicely built and with the better interiors you can find on the market, regarding quality and use of space. Unfortunately the prices go in pair with the quality.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

*Re: Sirius 40 / Garcia 40*



PCP said:


> Then Allures appeared on the market and it is the same kind of boat, lighter and with a better stability and Cornell soon started to be interested. Their relation comes from his interest in the boat.
> 
> When time comes for a new boat (and probably he was thinking about that from the beginning) he asked Allures for big modifications on the Allures 45 and they decided to make a boat for him using the 45 hull, that is made by Garcia (Garcia belongs to allures and all their hulls are made there). For commercial reasons they decided to call it a Garcia even if Garcia is only making bigger boats.
> 
> This is his dream voyage boat and the least we can say is that the guy knows one or two things about it
> 
> Also in the case of any problem these type of boats (Aluminium centerboarders) can be beached for repairs, offering also an additional protection against grounding. Final a aluminium centerboard with an adequate ballast is one of the best boats to survive bad weather (it has a great dynamic stability).o


But there is obe problem left: These boats are ugly as hell and charming as big cargo ships...


----------



## PCP

*Allures 45*



robelz said:


> But there is obe problem left: These boats are ugly as hell and charming as big cargo ships...


They certainly are not sexy but they have made a long way in what regards looking good. Great designers have made them look good even on the interior. I have been inside the Allures 45 and I had been surprised by the good looks of the boat (and by the price too). I knew also the Allures 44, the previous model and the it is surprising the evolution to the 45 in what regards finesse and elegance.






Take also a look at this one:

https://hamnenplay.solidtango.com/video/allures-45-130213

Regards

Paulo


----------



## opc11

*Omer Wing Sail*

Paulo et al,

I was doing some reading and came across the Omer Wing Sail. It seems to greatly simplify rigging, sail inventory and really simplify handling while improving sailing efficiency.

I was wondering if any of you had a particular opinion on these. One thought that came to mind was what effect if any it might have on a boat's stability and it's ability to right itself were it to be knocked down and have the area between the sails fill with water.

http://www.omerwingsail.com/

Love those Allures btw. Much nicer interior vs the Ovni's.

Regards,


----------



## PCP

*Re: Omer Wing Sail*



opc11 said:


> Paulo et al,
> 
> I was doing some reading and came across the Omer Wing Sail. It seems to greatly simplify rigging, sail inventory and really simplify handling while improving sailing efficiency.
> 
> I was wondering if any of you had a particular opinion on these. One thought that came to mind was what effect if any it might have on a boat's stability and it's ability to right itself were it to be knocked down and have the area between the sails fill with water.
> 
> Omer wing sail
> 
> ...
> 
> Regards,


YachtingMonthly tested them on this month edition and I had already posted about the Onesails work on wing sails, that is not the same thing.











The Omer wing sail is complicated, it needs a mast without shrouds, probably an heavy mast, the mast has to rotate and I cannot see clearly how to reef that sail easily. Complicated, expensive probably heavy. Maybe one day for big yachts in the future.

The One sails system seems simpler but the reffing problem remains.

I had posted also about a system that is an add on to the actual sail of the boat and that works with inflation given to the sail an actual wing profile. Seems more reasonable but I am not seeing me doing that in the huge main of may sailboat (a lot of work) and probably would turn reefing into a mess. Maybe for smaller boats. In a small cruiser that should be fun to try the system.

Home 2

I have not more news and I cannot find any movies on the net so I guess it is not a success, at least yet. I seems a good idea to me.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## donjuanluis

donjuanluis said:


> I am not qualified to talk about this matter, but I can read and understand most of it. In my very unique opinion, the venture between Cornell and Garcia seems to have a big marketing profile.
> There are other options, and If I ever have the resources and time to make a high latitud passage, like Cape Horn, I would consider the options I found here: Sirius-Werft Plön | 40 DS | 40 DS.
> Regards and keep it up.


I have to quote myself because as I said being not qualified to talk I can be wrong very easy. The builder I wanted to say was Our Yachts / K&M Yachtbuilders. who makes custom modifications to better fit your purpose. I'm talking about Bestevaer, Stadship, Axonite, all of them in aluminium. All of them way out of my reach ever....


----------



## PCP

donjuanluis said:


> I have to quote myself because as I said being not qualified to talk I can be wrong very easy. The builder I wanted to say was Our Yachts / K&M Yachtbuilders. who makes custom modifications to better fit your purpose. I'm talking about Bestevaer, Stadship, Axonite, all of them in aluminium. All of them way out of my reach ever....


Yes, that makes a lot more sense

One of them (Bestewind 50) was nominated recently for boat of the year on the luxury class (did not won). Here you can see it being tested.











But you are right regarding prices. The Dutch aluminium centerboarders for the same size are considerable more expensive than the French ones, I don't know why but that is true even in what regards other boats. Maybe because the production is much smaller...anyway I don't think Cornell is a very rich guy so it makes sense that him, like most of us had looked for the achievable dream and a boat he could pay. The Bestewind is a lovely boat but it costs about 1 million dollars.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

We spoke about the Océan 35 few days ago. I tried to contact them and ask for a realistic weight and the price tag but the email is invalid...

What do you think is a realistic weight for a fully (cruising-)equipped Pogo 30 and will it still be fast?


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 30*



robelz said:


> We spoke about the Océan 35 few days ago. I tried to contact them and ask for a realistic weight and the price tag but the email is invalid...
> 
> What do you think is a realistic weight for a fully (cruising-)equipped Pogo 30 and will it still be fast?


There is fast and fast, there is cruising equipment and cruising equipment. 

If you mean planning speeds, the boat should be as light as possible. That is a small boat and the same load will be much more detrimental for speed that in a bigger boat and if I remember right Eric in his Pogo 12.50 does not even carry an outboard engine.

Anyway the boat with a "normal" cruising charge for a 30ft would still be fast downwind but would need much more wind and sail area to plan, so much that I doubt that it would be practical solo in cruising mode.

Off course, we would have to define what is a normal charge and what one needs for cruising. That varies widely. Someone that will plan to cruise with a lot of people and charge would not probably want a Pogo 30.

Think of it like a motorcycle versus a car.

It is possible to cruise with a powerful sportive motorcycle (and I have done that) but not ideal to take someone with you neither the camping tents and food. Sure, it can be done and the motorcycle will still be fast in a straight line but would be comparatively more sluggish around bends than a touring car with the same load. On the car that weight, that on the motorcycle makes a big difference, is hardly noticed.

So if you want a Pogo 30 think about cruising light, as light as you can manage.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Paulo, do you understand where is the difference between Malango 888 and Mojito 888?


----------



## robelz

*Re: Pogo 30*



PCP said:


> There is fast and fast, there is cruising equipment and cruising equipment.
> 
> If you mean planning speeds, the boat should be as light as possible. That is a small boat and the same load will be much more detrimental for speed that in a bigger boat and if I remember right Eric in his Pogo 12.50 does not even carry an outboard engine.
> 
> Anyway the boat with a "normal" cruising charge for a 30ft would still be fast downwind but would need much more wind and sail area to plan, so much that I doubt that it would be practical solo in cruising mode.
> 
> Off course, we would have to define what is a normal charge and what one needs for cruising. That varies widely. Someone that will plan to cruise with a lot of people and charge would not probably want a Pogo 30.
> 
> Think of it like a motorcycle versus a car.
> 
> It is possible to cruise with a powerful sportive motorcycle (and I have done that) but not ideal to take someone with you neither the camping tents and food. Sure, it can be done and the motorcycle will still be fast in a straight line but would be comparatively more sluggish around bends than a touring car with the same load. On the car that weight, that on the motorcycle makes a big difference, is hardly noticed.
> 
> So if you want a Pogo 30 think about cruising light, as light as you can manage.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Some things I (or my girl) will need:

1) Music
2) Fridge
3) Stove with 2 Burners(?) but no oven
4) Anchor (light one)
5) Lots of electronics (NKE)
6) Additional storage (primary for clothes)


----------



## PCP

*winner 900 / Pogo 30*

Few times I have been so surprised as I was by this statement on that global test sail made by Voile magazine:

*"Two boats are passing the buoys together, the Pogo 30 and the Winner 900????. Two boats with a very different conception: The Pogo 30 with a beamy modern powerful hull with a simplified interior and the winner with a much more classic hull with a much better interior. Unfortunately we could not judge definitively the performances between the two boats because the winner had not a spinnaker on board."*

I have saw the Winner 900 in Dusseldorf, it seems a pretty classic cruiser, like the Dutch ones tend to be, but I would not take it for a very sportive boat, just a fast cruiser on the "old" style:











In fact they have three versions and I bet that the one that was tested with that Pogo 30 was the performance edition, the one on the movie, this one:





The boat is designed by Vand de Stadt design a denomination that pisses me because Vand de stadt passed long ago. The design really is from Cees van Tongeren.

When we look to the dimensions of the sportive version we understand that behind that classical look lays a pretty fast boat, specially upwind:

Length over all:	9.00 m
Waterline:	8.00 m
Width:	2.96 m
Draft: 1.90
Displacement:	3.10 ton
Ballast:	1.20 ton
Mainsail:	31m2

A lot of ballast on that sailboat and almost all in a torpedo at 1.90m is enough to give the power needed to drive fast that narrow hull that does not need a lot of sail.

This is a boat with a conception opposed to the Pogo 30. The weights are not that different (2800kg to 3100kg) but look at the beam (3.70m to 2.96m). the Pogo has a swing keel but it offers also a fixed torpedo keel with 1.90m. On the Pogo the B/D should be smaller as normally is in this type of boats versus narrower boats.









In the end with 6/8K the same speed upwind. I bet that I am not the only one surprised. I hope that they find this as interesting as I and make a full comparative test between the two boats since they could not compare the speeds downwind because the Winner had not a spinnaker.

Of course in high winds the Pogo downwind will start to plan much sooner and will go away but upwind with waves probably the winner will go away too.

Interesting stuff.

There is one thing that is far better on the Pogo interior: space and one that is much better on the winner, interior quality and charm.

Charm is too strong?

Just look at this interior:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/winner900_.swf

Two great boats in their own way I would say


----------



## HMoll

500 pages! Congratulations Paulo and senior contributors! Is this a record for any sailing thread? I bet it is. Sold my J/35 a few weeks ago , so this is the sailing I'll be doing for a while. Regards to all, Hans.


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Paulo, do you understand where is the difference between Malango 888 and Mojito 888?


The Mojito 888 (I love Mojitos) is yet in project. Same hull than the 888 but a bigger cruising potential (with a bigger cabin) and it will be a highly customized boat. It can have or not the dinghy garage, it is offered on the standard version with a fixed keel with 1.80m of draft but can also have the swing keel.

It seems interesting to me

Regarding your needs while cruising it is up to you to decide. Go and see the interiors of different fast boats, their accommodations and the prices and take a pick. It is also important to have a boat adapted to your cruising grounds: Swallow waters, deep waters, strong or medium winds versus weak winds, lots of upwind sailing versus lots of downwind sailing, mostly flat waters versus choppy seas or big waves with a considerable period and so on.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> 500 pages! Congratulations Paulo and senior contributors! Is this a record for any sailing thread? I bet it is. Sold my J/35 a few weeks ago , so this is the sailing I'll be doing for a while. Regards to all, Hans.


Take the time to charter some interesting boats before decide what is really the type and the boat you want. It worked for me and the cost is not considerable if we compare the price of a new boat, not to mention the fun

Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

Hi there,

Let mi say that despite many doubts I made up my mind and placed an order for a new Luffe 37.09 a little bit customised according to my needs. The keel would be 1.85 instead of the standard 1.70 to get a stiffer boat (though already the CG Og Luffe 37.09 is lower than that of Luffe 37). I thin that with a B/D of 44% and the CG further low I will have a stable, stiff and fast upwind boat. The mast is moved back a few centimeters in order to enjoy a self-tacking jib adequate to the mainsail: 25/24 sq.m., instead of the standard 26/25 sq.m. This is 2 sq.m. less sail area than the standard configuration but still enjoying an almost 20 SA/D. The reverse sloping stern will have a small teak covered bathing platform with an additional step. Cockpit benches will be extended from 1.30 to 1.70 in order to be able to lie, but with the extension can be removed in order to be able to steer standing if wished placing feet comfortably when'd the boat is heeled on the leeward side of the sloped teak floor. The hull and deck will be vacuum molded with epoxy with balsa core (Oluf uses foam core in polyester hulls only). I wanted to retain the bridge deck (though my wife dislikes it) on which there is a recess for the traveller). I will have a spinnaker pole but instead of a spinnaker I will have a code 1 sail which I liked vey much for easy sailing in lighter winds, which is easily hoisted on its own fulrler, which you can even keep rolled without need to immediate removal. Oluf says that if poled out you can sail it even dead downwind. There will be some modifications inside as well. I know the boat is narrow and tight inside but almost all of the time I will be singlehandling it in the Black Sea and the Med (no ocean sailing and no extended trips in opens sea). But as the saying does better grace than space.The instruments will be placed on a board above the companion way and there will be solar panel on the cabin roof. Integrated autopilot (though a rather expensive option) will be fitted. There are many other details to sort out. The good thing with this boatyard is that you can ask for advice and modifications. The smallest (now in terms of weight and beam) Luffe is a long time bestseller of the yard and they have done a lot to improve the model during the years (and I believe my future boat will be in the same line of improvements).

Ok, this was related to the postings about pros and cons regarding cruising in a smaller performance oriented boat and I wish that my future Luffe 37.09 will be both traditional and modern interesting boat.

Rumen


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: winner 900 / Pogo 30*



PCP said:


> Few times I have been so surprised as I was by this statement on that global test sail made by Voile magazine:
> 
> *"Two boats are passing the buoys together, the Pogo 30 and the Winner 900????. Two boats with a very different conception: The Pogo 30 with a beamy modern powerful hull with a simplified interior and the winner with a much more classic hull with a much better interior. Unfortunately we could not judge definitively the performances between the two boats because the winner had not a spinnaker on board."*
> 
> I have saw the Winner 900 in Dusseldorf, it seems a pretty classic cruiser, like the Dutch ones tend to be, but I would not take it for a very sportive boat, just a fast cruiser on the "old" style:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact they have three versions and I bet that the one that was tested with that Pogo 30 was the performance edition, the one on the movie, this one:
> 
> 
> 
> The boat is designed by Vand de Stadt design a denomination that pisses me because Vand de stadt passed long ago. The design really is from Cees van Tongeren.
> 
> When we look to the dimensions of the sportive version we understand that behind that classical look lays a pretty fast boat, specially upwind:
> 
> Length over all:	9.00 m
> Waterline:	8.00 m
> Width:	2.96 m
> Draft: 1.90
> Displacement:	3.10 ton
> Ballast:	1.20 ton
> Mainsail:	31m2
> 
> A lot of ballast on that sailboat and almost all in a torpedo at 1.90m is enough to give the power needed to drive fast that narrow hull that does not need a lot of sail.
> 
> This is a boat with a conception opposed to the Pogo 30. The weights are not that different (2800kg to 3100kg) but look at the beam (3.70m to 2.96m). the Pogo has a swing keel but it offers also a fixed torpedo keel with 1.90m. On the Pogo the B/D should be smaller as normally is in this type of boats versus narrower boats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the end with 6/8K the same speed upwind. I bet that I am not the only one surprised. I hope that they find this as interesting as I and make a full comparative test between the two boats since they could not compare the speeds downwind because the Winner had not a spinnaker.
> 
> Of course in high winds the Pogo downwind will start to plan much sooner and will go away but upwind with waves probably the winner will go away too.
> 
> Interesting stuff.
> 
> There is one thing that is far better on the Pogo interior: space and one that is much better on the winner, interior quality and charm.
> 
> Charm is too strong?
> 
> Just look at this interior:
> 
> http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/winner900_.swf
> 
> Two great boats in their own way I would say


The Pogo 30 keeping up with the Winner 9.00 on an upwind track? In light winds this doesn't surprise me that much.

The 30 is in fact almost a downsized 12.50 and also we can achieve an upwind VMG comparable to reputated upwind cruiser-racers of similar size, compensating height with speed by bearing down a little and going faster. This results in frustrating tacking angles on the plotter but in the end we reach the upwind mark at the same time, also thanks to the SA/D ratio.

That is: in good conditions such as on this test. Against a steep chop things become quite different because of wave drag, as Paulo very well explained much earlier in this thread.

Once again: we don't dislike sailing upwind that much because of performance, but mostly because we know how much faster we will be on any other course. Because starting from a reach, trust me, any Pogo will soon be out of sight of almost any other production monohull.

On one condition, as Paulo stated: keep it light.
When the four of us cruised the 10.50, carrying my overweight and our two basketball center players of sons also not being light, plus cruising gear aboard and our luggage/stores for one week, we felt the boat was somewhat overloaded. Performance was very nice (12 k under spinnaker) but would certainly have been even better with a few hundreds of kilo's less.

This (and headroom) made us decide for the 12.50, that of course accepts more load. But also on this much bigger boat, any load affects performance. That's why we appointed our youngest son and most fanatic sailor as our "weight watcher" .

So we don't carry an outboard indeed, not even a tender. The liferaft is only taken aboard for long passages (Pogo's are unsinkable, so this item is only essential in case of fire and beyond reach of quick assistance). We only use one of the two water tanks (also because in these areas fresh water is always readily available, it rises the turnover and thereby diminishes contamination risks, and also for reasons of lateral weight balance: sails stored on starboard, water on port side). We even dismissed the lever shears because a good hacksaw with a sufficient number of high-grade blades is at least as efficient to cut shrouds in case of dismasting and much lighter.

By the way, we never race. It's all only about the pleasure of sailing fast. 
But of course it will be a completely different thing when we will be able to make our dream cruise to Scotland and the Hebrides. Then comfort will overrule speed and we certainly will carry all the stuff and even more (and probably make the boat a little more comfortable upwind).

And we do always have the music, fridge, stove 2 burners and even an oven, anchor (heavy one), lots of electronics (NKE) and additional storage (primary for clothes), Robelz! Plus heating, hot water, a shower and one single door closing the heads compartiment .

Concerning the Winner, I very much wonder how they manage to keep the weight down to 3.100 kg, with that traditional (=heavy) interior, high B/D ratio, hand-lay-up GRP (no infusion, only the deck is sandwich), steel frame, aluminium mast, wooden bulkheads etc. 
Knowing how obsessed the guys of Structures are with weight (sandwich infused hull, deck, bulkheads, deep composite/lead keel, carbon mast, minimalistic interior, etc.), I find it very difficult to believe the Pogo would only weigh 300 kg less .

But one thing is for sure, the Winner 9.00 certainly must be an excellent boat and I look forward to reading the full report in Voiles Mag'.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Luffe 37.09*



olianta said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Let mi say that despite many doubts I made up my mind and placed an order for a new Luffe 37.09 a little bit customised according to my needs. The keel would be 1.85 instead of the standard 1.70 to get a stiffer boat (though already the CG Og Luffe 37.09 is lower than that of Luffe 37). I thin that with a B/D of 44% and the CG further low I will have a stable, stiff and fast upwind boat. The mast is moved back a few centimeters in order to enjoy a self-tacking jib adequate to the mainsail: 25/24 sq.m., instead of the standard 26/25 sq.m. This is 2 sq.m. less sail area than the standard configuration but still enjoying an almost 20 SA/D. The reverse sloping stern will have a small teak covered bathing platform with an additional step. Cockpit benches will be extended from 1.30 to 1.70 in order to be able to lie, but with the extension can be removed in order to be able to steer standing if wished placing feet comfortably when'd the boat is heeled on the leeward side of the sloped teak floor. The hull and deck will be vacuum molded with epoxy with balsa core (Oluf uses foam core in polyester hulls only). I wanted to retain the bridge deck (though my wife dislikes it) on which there is a recess for the traveller). I will have a spinnaker pole but instead of a spinnaker I will have a code 1 sail which I liked vey much for easy sailing in lighter winds, which is easily hoisted on its own fulrler, which you can even keep rolled without need to immediate removal. Oluf says that if poled out you can sail it even dead downwind. There will be some modifications inside as well. I know the boat is narrow and tight inside but almost all of the time I will be singlehandling it in the Black Sea and the Med (no ocean sailing and no extended trips in opens sea). But as the saying does better grace than space.The instruments will be placed on a board above the companion way and there will be solar panel on the cabin roof. Integrated autopilot (though a rather expensive option) will be fitted. There are many other details to sort out. The good thing with this boatyard is that you can ask for advice and modifications. The smallest (now in terms of weight and beam) Luffe is a long time bestseller of the yard and they have done a lot to improve the model during the years (and I believe my future boat will be in the same line of improvements).
> 
> Ok, this was related to the postings about pros and cons regarding cruising in a smaller performance oriented boat and I wish that my future Luffe 37.09 will be both traditional and modern interesting boat.
> 
> Rumen


Congratulations about the boat. That long list of modifications show till what point Luffe can customize the boats.

Are you not mistaken about the balsa core? I mean about Luffe not using divinycel on epoxy hulls?

*"Glass fibre reinforced polyester or epoxy with foam core ( Divinycel 10 mm.)"*

- LUFFE YACHTS -

The 3.6 uses a balsa core with epoxy but the other boats use a foam core, at least it is what is as information on the site and it was what they used some years back.

I don't share your opinion regarding the 37.09 to be a better boat than the 36.6. The 37.09 share the same hull with the 37 and that is an old hull, back from 1979. It was a great boat but even if the rudder and keel are different a lot was learned about design in between and Oluf had keep the pace, designing more modern and fast hulls.







LUFFE 37 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Well, you will have a "classic" sailboat no doubt






Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

*Re: winner 900 / Pogo 30*



EricKLYC said:


> And we do always have the music, fridge, stove 2 burners and even an oven, anchor (heavy one), lots of electronics (NKE) and additional storage (primary for clothes), Robelz! Plus heating, hot water, a shower and one single door closing the heads compartiment .


Sounds like comfortable cruising to me... 

That's about the same extras I'd order - but 12.5 is too large for me...


----------



## PCP

*Re: winner 900 / Pogo 30*



EricKLYC said:


> .
> Once again: we don't dislike sailing upwind that much because of performance, but mostly because we know how much faster we will be on any other course. Because starting from a reach, trust me, any Pogo will soon be out of sight of almost any other production monohull.


No doubt about that specially if we consider sailing with a short crew. Other much more expensive small series cruiser racers could keep up or even be faster but they are not as easy to sail and need a crew, not to mention ... a lot of money.



EricKLYC said:


> ...
> Concerning the Winner, I very much wonder how they manage to keep the weight down to 3.100 kg, with that traditional (=heavy) interior, high B/D ratio, hand-lay-up GRP (no infusion, only the deck is sandwich), steel frame, aluminium mast, wooden bulkheads etc.
> Knowing how obsessed the guys of Structures are with weight (sandwich infused hull, deck, bulkheads, deep composite/lead keel, carbon mast, minimalistic interior, etc.), I find it very difficult to believe the Pogo would only weigh 300 kg less .
> 
> But one thing is for sure, the Winner 9.00 certainly must be an excellent boat and I look forward to reading the full report in Voiles Mag'.
> 
> Eric


Consider that the Pogo 30 has a beam of 3.7m while the Winner 900 have only about 3.0m. This means that the overall surface to be built is considerably smaller and therefore less heavier. I don't know where you get the information that the hull was not cored. Here they show a cored hull being built:

Winner Yachts Germany - Winner 9.00 bei Nordic Yachting Neustadt



I guess you can read German. There are German test on the net on the Winner 900, but it was not the performance version:

http://www.winner-yachts.de/downloads/Boootshandel-Test-Winner900.pdf

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Hey Eric,

just read you're from Antwerpen. What is your home sailing area? 

Robert

PS: Will study in Brussels next year...


----------



## PCP

*Sail movies, some recent ones and one just to show how to sail solo.*


----------



## olianta

*Re: Luffe 37.09*



PCP said:


> Congratulations about the boat. That long list of modifications show till what point Luffe can customize the boats.
> 
> Are you not mistaken about the balsa core? I mean about Luffe not using divinycel on epoxy hulls?
> 
> *"Glass fibre reinforced polyester or epoxy with foam core ( Divinycel 10 mm.)"*
> 
> - LUFFE YACHTS -
> 
> The 3.6 uses a balsa core with epoxy but the other boats use a foam core, at least it is what is as information on the site and it was what they used some years back.
> 
> I don't share your opinion regarding the 37.09 to be a better boat than the 36.6. The 37.09 share the same hull with the 37 and that is an old hull, back from 1979. It was a great boat but even if the rudder and keel are different a lot was learned about design in between and Oluf had keep the pace, designing more modern and fast hulls.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Regarding the balsa core here is their answer on the same question I asked (I have found some discrepancies with what was written on their website, which unlike the boats is not to the best what could expect)

"Dear Rumen. 
We will do the cockpit, as you suggested in the last picture. Which means you keep the wooden bench at the end of the cockpit, we will extend the benches at the side, as far as possible and it can be folded away.
The core in deck and hull are balsa, we always use balsa when we vacuum infuse with epoxy."

As far as the "old hull"you refer to regarding the Luffe 37, I do not agree. This
is a hull form which has proved itself for many years and I believe it is Oluf's favourite - a narrow boat with low freeboard. As I have stated previously in my opinion Oluf assumed new approach rgearding Luffe 3.6 basically to provide more space and enough standing height belowdecks that would match the taste of the predominantly his German customers who seem to be less spartan than the Danes. I do thin that the 3.6 will be faster not because of the hull shape, but only due to the fact that its sail area is 10 sq.m. more in order to drive 
its fattier and heavier hull. And I do not think this is Oluf's favourite hull form. Let's take for instance the Wally Nano hull (Wally yachts are admired by him), whose L/B ratio exceeds the Luffe 37's one. But it's is a daysailor's hull, meaning less space below deck. The more beam aft of the Luffe 3.6 will probably allow planing. But to be honest, if planing capabilities were my priorities I would have ended with a Dragonfly trimaran.

Rumen


----------



## olianta

*Re: Luffe 37.09*



PCP said:


> Congratulations about the boat. That long list of modifications show till what point Luffe can customize the boats.
> 
> Are you not mistaken about the balsa core? I mean about Luffe not using divinycel on epoxy hulls?
> 
> *"Glass fibre reinforced polyester or epoxy with foam core ( Divinycel 10 mm.)"*
> 
> - LUFFE YACHTS -
> 
> The 3.6 uses a balsa core with epoxy but the other boats use a foam core, at least it is what is as information on the site and it was what they used some years back.
> 
> I don't share your opinion regarding the 37.09 to be a better boat than the 36.6. The 37.09 share the same hull with the 37 and that is an old hull, back from 1979. It was a great boat but even if the rudder and keel are different a lot was learned about design in between and Oluf had keep the pace, designing more modern and fast hulls.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Regarding the balsa core here is their answer on the same question I asked (I have found some discrepancies with what was written on their website, which unlike the boats is not to the best what could expect)

"Dear Rumen. 
We will do the cockpit, as you suggested in the last picture. Which means you keep the wooden bench at the end of the cockpit, we will extend the benches at the side, as far as possible and it can be folded away.
The core in deck and hull are balsa, we always use balsa when we vacuum infuse with epoxy."

As far as the "old hull"you refer to regarding the Luffe 37, I do not agree. This
is a hull form which has proved itself for many years and I believe it is Oluf's favourite - a narrow boat with low freeboard. As I have stated previously in my opinion Oluf assumed new approach rgearding Luffe 3.6 basically to provide more space and enough standing height belowdecks that would match the taste of the predominantly his German customers who seem to be less spartan than the Danes. I do thin that the 3.6 will be faster not because of the hull shape, but only due to the fact that its sail area is 10 sq.m. more in order to drive 
its fattier and heavier hull. And I do not think this is Oluf's favourite hull form. Let's take for instance the Wally Nano hull (Wally yachts are admired by him), whose L/B ratio exceeds the Luffe 37's one. But it's is a daysailor's hull, meaning less space below deck. The more beam aft of the Luffe 3.6 will probably allow planing. But to be honest, if planing capabilities were my priorities I would have ended with a Dragonfly trimaran.

Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Luffe 36.6*



The boat was tested by the main German Magazine Yacht.de and by the Norwegian Seil.

The ones from Seil make a nice final resume:* What could one want more?*

The Germans are not so radical and say: *When tested, the Danish boat surprised not only by its sailing qualities, but also with by its unusually generous space.*

Here you can read the Norwegian test. You have only to click on the English banner.

Luffe 3.6 seiler - SEILmagasinet


----------



## opc11

*Re: Omer Wing Sail*



PCP said:


> YachtingMonthly tested them on this month edition and I had already posted about the Onesails work on wing sails, that is not the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Omer wing sail is complicated, it needs a mast without shrouds, probably an heavy mast, the mast has to rotate and I cannot see clearly how to reef that sail easily. Complicated, expensive probably heavy. Maybe one day for big yachts in the future.
> 
> The One sails system seems simpler but the reffing problem remains.
> 
> I had posted also about a system that is an add on to the actual sail of the boat and that works with inflation given to the sail an actual wing profile. Seems more reasonable but I am not seeing me doing that in the huge main of may sailboat (a lot of work) and probably would turn reefing into a mess. Maybe for smaller boats. In a small cruiser that should be fun to try the system.
> 
> Home 2
> 
> I have not more news and I cannot find any movies on the net so I guess it is not a success, at least yet. I seems a good idea to me.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Not sure I agree. From what I can tell, each video showed two different approaches to the mast. The top showed a wishbone style mast, where each "leg" seemed smaller than a regular mast and had cross members to add strength and rigidity. The other appeared to have a single mast with two tracks (one to port & starboard). Neither seemed grossly oversized in looking closely at them.

Reefing-wise, they claim they're easy to reef in both videos. I'd like to see that. But to me, it looks like each sail would fall into the same lazyjack type system and each would be tied individually. So it does look like there would be an extra step here.

But overall, the rigging looks much simpler to my eye vs a regular standing/running rigging. No sidestays, no spreaders, an optional front/backstay if you wish to fly a gennaker, hydraulic controls for camber which are usually very robust and time tested. It would seem no vang or Cunningham is needed, nor battens, fewer winches, less wear and tear on the sails due to less flogging as you cross the wind (no chafing from spreaders). Am I missing something that your astute eye caught?

It appears they're already working on v5, so the pace of improvement seems to be respectable and it's even being used on very small boats. hmmmm I can definitely understand the adoption rate being slow. It's a huge change to conventional sailing for cruisers. But that doesn't mean it's bad; just early. 

Regards,


----------



## opc11

donjuanluis said:


> I have to quote myself because as I said being not qualified to talk I can be wrong very easy. The builder I wanted to say was Our Yachts / K&M Yachtbuilders. who makes custom modifications to better fit your purpose. I'm talking about Bestevaer, Stadship, Axonite, all of them in aluminium. All of them way out of my reach ever....


WOW. They build some boats. Some of those interiors are incredible!


----------



## olianta

Yes, as you can see, the accent is on the space and the space you have on the 3.6, you do not have on the 37, but I doubt that the latter' hull is less effective. But as you have mentioned in some of your posts if the hull is narrow it is better to be longer. In this respect I like better the 40.04 (which you already know very well). Unfortunately, one has also to pay a lot of money for it. Oluf's Jospehine is lying on the same pontoon opposite the 3.6 and is for sale (I did not ask what is the price but I am sure it will exceed 250 000).
Rumen


----------



## PCP

olianta said:


> Yes, as you can see, the accent is on the space and the space you have on the 3.6, you do not have on the 37, but I doubt that the latter' hull is less effective. But as you have mentioned in some of your posts if the hull is narrow it is better to be longer. In this respect I like better the 40.04 (which you already know very well). Unfortunately, one has also to pay a lot of money for it. Oluf's Jospehine is lying on the same pontoon opposite the 3.6 and is for sale (I did not ask what is the price but I am sure it will exceed 250 000).
> Rumen


They are asking 280000 euros for it but I think they will sell it for about 250000 euros but that is a boat with Seldén carbon fibre mast/rod rig, Bow truster "Swing Trust", Electrical winches, Electric furler, Carbon fibre steering wheel, not a standard boat

A hull being modern has nothing to do with being narrow or beamy but with reflecting all the new technological improvements and knowledge in design.

The luffe 40.04 was a modern hull, very similar to the one of the 36.6. The boat is nicer because a 40fter is longer and therefore having a proportionally less bigger freeboard. The same way the 45 is even nicer and probably the nicest of them all is the bigger one the 48:



In my opinion the 36.6 is one of the more beautiful 37 fts around:





The only thing I would modify is the closed transom that looks too heavy but that is really easy to sort it out: I am sure that there would not be a problem in having an open transom in that boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Omer Wing Sail*



opc11 said:


> Not sure I agree. From what I can tell, each video showed two different approaches to the mast. The top showed a wishbone style mast, where each "leg" seemed smaller than a regular mast and had cross members to add strength and rigidity. The other appeared to have a single mast with two tracks (one to port & starboard). Neither seemed grossly oversized in looking closely at them.
> 
> Reefing-wise, they claim they're easy to reef in both videos. I'd like to see that. But to me, it looks like each sail would fall into the same lazyjack type system and each would be tied individually. So it does look like there would be an extra step here.
> 
> But overall, the rigging looks much simpler to my eye vs a regular standing/running rigging. No sidestays, no spreaders, an optional front/backstay if you wish to fly a gennaker, hydraulic controls for camber which are usually very robust and time tested. It would seem no vang or Cunningham is needed, nor battens, fewer winches, less wear and tear on the sails due to less flogging as you cross the wind (no chafing from spreaders). Am I missing something that your astute eye caught?
> 
> It appears they're already working on v5, so the pace of improvement seems to be respectable and it's even being used on very small boats. hmmmm I can definitely understand the adoption rate being slow. It's a huge change to conventional sailing for cruisers. But that doesn't mean it's bad; just early.
> 
> Regards,


I had already said what were my objections: Complicated, expensive and technically difficult, besides reefing problems. What you said regarding a simpler free standing rig without stays and for more a rotating one represents an enormous technical and structural difficulty and can only be resolved with very high tech materials in an incredibly expensive way...and I don't know if in a better way.

What you say regarding free standing rigs is not a new thing. Many have tried and there are some boats that use them...but they are just a small minority and there are reasons for that. Even in what regards not using back-stays lots of of boats don't use them, for instance the Hunter and the cruising Pogos. But besides being cheaper it is a better solution? Then why the racing Pogos (with the same hull) use backstays? A backstay can change the shape of the front sail and mainsail, something that a free standing rig cannot do and besides make the rig stronger.

I believe that the wing sails have a big future but they have to become practical and not hugely expensive. That does not seem to me the case with that set up.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Oceanis 38 / Luffe 3.6*

After the Luffe 36.6, a narrow 37 fter, the Oceanis 38, a very beamy 38ft cruiser

The Oceanis 38 has been raising a lo of interest and some of its characteristics are revolutionary at least in what regards mass market boats, namely its interior.

A cruising boat is also a "house", a place where some live for extending periods of time and in what regards that particular the Oceanis has no compairaison with the Luffe 36.6...in everything except built quality, that is superior on the Luffe. Let's have a look comparing both interiors:

Luffe 36.6:

















Oceanis 38















So, as you can see nothing to do in what regards living comfort, living quality and space. And I do not even have mentioned the cockpit space that for me is very important because even on anchor I live most of the time outside. That space is hugely bigger on the Oceanis.





Certainly the question is: Are the sail performance completely different and the amazing answer will be no. The Luffe 36.6 will be more rewarding sailing, almost for sure with an overall better performer specially upwind but in what cruising regards it will not be a very big difference with the advantage to the Oceanis in what regards sailing with much less heel and being much more stable and easy to sail downwind (and probably faster, given it the right amount of sail).

If I would cruise extensively and lived several months on a boat (that is what I do) I doubt that even for the same price I would choose a Luffe 36.6 over the Oceanis 38 even if they would cost the same and that is not the case being the Luffe more expensive.

If I used the boat less extensively in what regards living, then it would be another story and in what regards sailing pleasure I have no doubt that I would prefer the Luffe.











Regarding sail performance the nice hull of the Oceanis based on Open boat design give the impression that it is a very fast boat even in the category of performance boats. That is not the case and on a recent test with many cruisers on the water (light wind) the Oceanis was not even a match for a Varianta 37 (that is a downgraded and very inexpensive version of an Hanse) while the true performance boats like the Dehler 38 were incomparably better.

That has to due with weight the the poor running rigging, lesser control on the sails, less sail area (related with the boat RM). There is talk of a more sportive version. I doubt it because then the price of the boat would increase dramatically and what is going to make this a top seller boat is what the boat offers already for a very interesting price.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Oceanis 38*

Video with some images with the boat going fast with medium/strong wind:

Le "Spécial Novembre" est arrivé !


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## PCP

*Sly 38*

and since we are talking about 38ft boats, a new movie with the Sly 38 that is also an interesting option. We had already talked about this boat before (it was nominated for 2021 boat of the year):


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## PCP

*Sydney to Auckland in less than three days:*

An Australian crew set an new record for sailing from Sydney to Auckland on an old ORMA 60 trimaran.


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## EricKLYC

*Re: winner 900 / Pogo 30*



PCP said:


> Consider that the Pogo 30 has a beam of 3.7m while the Winner 900 have only about 3.0m. This means that the overall surface to be built is considerably smaller and therefore less heavier. I don't know where you get the information that the hull was not cored. Here they show a cored hull being built:
> 
> I guess you can read German. There are German test on the net on the Winner 900, but it was not the performance version:
> 
> http://www.winner-yachts.de/downloads/Boootshandel-Test-Winner900.pdf
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


My information about the hull was: Winneryachts - Way Ahead - Building a Winner

Which I clearly misunderstood, as also confirmed by the Yacht test (my translation):
_Hull and deck are built in sandwich with hand lay-up._

Less beam = less hull = less material = less weight. 
Plus 300 kg for the interior now also makes some sense to me.

Thanks Paulo, my honest mistake!

Kind regards,

Eric


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## PCP

*Rolex Middle Sea Race 2013*

Is on, with a lousy video coverage. This race deserved better. It is a great race with many great boats racing.

This is the race track:






One of the Start (1):






and the list of racers:

Rolex Middle Sea Race

Lots of fast cruising boats racing among racing boats.

Regarding performance cruisers are doing well: there is a two J122, a Salona 41, a Grand Soleil 43, a Elan 410, several First 40, a Solaris 42. It would be nice to see how these boats and many other performance cruisers perform in real time on the Med conditions (there are also a Comet 41s a Azuree 40 and a A 40 racing).

Among those on the Messina straight the two j122 are leading on compensated time and real time, followed by the Salona in compensated time. No cruising Pogos racing (that should be very interesting) only racing Class 40, that are way faster than the cruising versions but even if the first of them is way ahead the other two are slower than the two J122 (in real time) and also slower than the Salona 41, one of them slower than the Comet 41s (all in real time).

It seems that these type of very powerful beamy hulls are not the most indicated for the choppy waters of the med neither for upwind sailing not even on more typical upwind ocean conditions such as you can find on the Sydney-Hobart.

Transats and trade winds are what they are made for and where they are unbeatable by similar sized boats.

The Azuree 40, with a good crew (the boat makes a lot of high level racing), the only performance cruiser clearly based on the 40class racers is way slower than any of the mentioned 40ft performance cruisers. The Azuree is similar in the hull design to a Pogo 12.50 but not as fast (more heavy and with a nicer cruising interior).

the race tracker:

Rolex Middle Sea Race


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## PCP

*Modern hull shapes.*

I have to apologies to Eric because it seems that I am always bringing his boat down in what regards comparing performance with other performance boats. I would like to make clear that I find the Pogo 12.50 a fantastic boat with an amazing performance for a cruising boat and not only a sail one but a practical because that boat can have a draft of a bit more than a meter an that allows it to go everywhere and the boat is sold at a low price considering the quality of building, materials and the swing keel.

So why I take always the Pogo as reference for less positive performance considerations: Precisely because the Pogo is very fast but mostly because many here associates the hull shape of the Pogo with the one of a model performance hull, I mean, the *ONLY* shape and characteristics that a performance hull should have and that is plain wrong.

That shape of hull is good on certain conditions and points of sail, indicated for solo sailing for its added stability (even if probably a solo boat maximized for upwind sailing would be less beamier) not so good in other and not very good in some.

The frequent analysis that I made here based in real times on major races comparing performances of boats sailed by top crews has as main objective to put some light on the subject and learn more about different hull types in different sea and wind conditions. I have been learning and there is much more to be learned.

Modern hulls in fast performance cruisers can have different shapes, maximized to work at his best in different conditions and points of sail, needed a bigger or a smaller crew. Here are some of them:











Do I have a preference?: Yes but that is related with the type of sailing I end up doing most, upwind sailing or light air sailing and it is not the best choice for solo sailing (boat more difficult to handle) - Give me a Ker 39

One of the things it makes the Pogo so extraordinaire is that many can have a Pogo 12.50 that has a "normal" price while a Ker 39 would cost at least more 50% if not more and anyway like the Pogo to maintain top performance it would have to be kept very light.

As I cannot (like) to cruise as light as Eric on a second thought in fact for the load I carry, for that type of very fast planning boat, I would need a much bigger boat, maybe a Premier 45? And that is the problem, that would cost a fortune.

So in the end I would stick (like most) with a Salona 41, a Comet 41, a First 40 or a J122, more heavy boats that would not be so affected by the heavier load. Of course with the extra load I would be saying goodbye to planning speeds, except in rare occasions, but would end up with a boat that would still have a very good performance if compared with main market cruisers. But...if I was going to make a circumnavigation or even crossing the pond on both directions following the trade winds or do a considerable percentage with that kind of sailing, I would take the Pogo 12.50, with some load and all. There I would appreciate its downwind speed and most of all its superior easiness. Having fun with a sailboat is a thing, long range voyaging is another.


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## PCP

*Middle the sea race - update*

They have passed Stromboli and there are some interesting news.

There is a Sun Fast 3200 making a fantastic race with d1 h4 m43 s5, a Marten 49 with d0 h22 m32 s22, a J122 with d1 h2 m34 s45 another one with d1 h2 m50 s46, a Grand Soleil 37 with d1 h3 m58 s57, the first Class 40 is making d0 h23 m17 s27, the other two d1 h11 m49 s58 and d1 h11 m50 s44.

Other results:

ELAN 410 d1 h3 m32 s20, Salona 41 d1 h3 m33 s30, First 40 d1 h3 m33 s18,	first 40 d1 h4 m4 s27, the first of many First 40.7 d1 h3 m34 s57, Solaris One 42 d1 h3 m13 s16, J 111 d1 h3 m19 s45, J111 d1 h3 m26 s14, Arcambault 40 d1 h3 m44 s3, Comet 41S d1 h3 m53 s34, J 133 d1 h3 m5 s54, Azuree 40 d1 h5 m5 s21, Salona 37 d1 h5 m2 s44, Grand Soleil 43 d1 h3 m18 s51, Dehler 34 d1 h5 m16 s26, Azuree 33 d1 h5 m57 s24, Pacer 376 d1 h3 m42 s308.

A look at the boats. The Comet 41s seems to be duo sailed.


----------



## robelz

Why are so many cruisers faster than the SF 3200? Is the race only upwind or the SF sailed shorthanded?


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## robelz

Warwick Yacht Design

Ever heard of this yard?


----------



## PCP

*Boat design*



robelz said:


> Why are so many cruisers faster than the SF 3200? Is the race only upwind or the SF sailed shorthanded?


That is an interesting question that has to do with that post about hull shapes.

No I am quite sure that the boat is not being sailed short handed. That is a well know boat and crew, a very good one. Look at them at the last Giraglia:











In fact the boat (as I have said) it is making a hell of a race being in 6th in compensated time in a race that has 82 boats, many of them with top crews. This means that the boat is been sailed very close to its rating (0.989) that is a very high one for a 32ft boat.

No, this is a very typical Med race with wind from all quadrants. The only difference to the Atlantic shores is the type of waves that here have a more short period, are smaller but more steep.

That SF3200 was designed specifically for the Transquadra (Transat) and in there you would not find a wide variety the winds, like on this race, but trade winds, almost all the time downwind and from medium to strong winds. You can have for days constant winds between 15 and 25K. On those conditions the Sunfast 32 can go very fast at planning speeds but those conditions are "normal" only there, on most other places they are not that usual. If you get 25K downwind you will have also 25K upwind and normally on other places the winds are not that strong and probably you will have more weak winds than strong or medium winds.

The fact that the Sunfast 32, being designed with a Transat in mind, can do so well in IRC says very well regarding the boat and the designer itself.

On the Transquadra (a solo or duo race) between boats designed expressly for it there are also some main market performance racers namely the Grand Soleil 37, that is a boat with a rating not very different (1.038). On the Transquadra it does well but it is not a match for the SF32 but here, with more "normal" conditions, on a boat not as well sailed (14th on compensated) on the Stromboli control point the Grand Soleil 37 was 45m ahead.

The size of the LWL and therefore the size of a sailboat is a very important factor in what regards speed (except in planning speeds or very light winds) so it is not amazing bigger fast performance cruisers to be faster than the SF 32. If you look at the smaller boats you will see that a Dufour 34p (18th in compensated) is 33m slower and if you look at the ratings you will see that both boats have about the same speed potential on "normal conditions" (the SF a bit faster) but on a Transat the SF will fly away.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

robelz said:


> Warwick Yacht Design
> 
> Ever heard of this yard?


Yes, but it is not a yard but a Design Cabinet. The design you show seems to have already some years, it is an one off and I don't think it has passed from the design stage.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Middle of the sea race: Duo class*

Yes, I was right, that Comet 41s was being duo sailed. It is in 5th out of eleven boats on the Duo class but in real time they are second, only beaten by a 40 class racer and leaving another two class 40 racers behind. Also behind in real time, among others, one First 40, three First 40.7 and two 50ft cruisers. Not bad

A nicer movie about the race start. Beautiful boats out there:


----------



## PCP

*Irc / orc*

We have been talking here about the two major systems. There was an intention to make it a single system but that seems to have been an huge resistance to that. Some say that the results are similar but in fact they are not and at least in the Middle of the sea race they clearly favor big yachts regarding smaller boats.

For instance at Stomboli in IRC the 5 first are all 49ft boats or bigger, mostly racing boats with the oddity of an Oceanis 430.

1st - Mills72	
2th - One Off Yawl	
3th - Oceanis 430	
4th - MINI MAXI 72 
5th - MARTEN 49
6th - SUN FAST 3200	
7th -	Swan 60	
8th -	CNB 76	
9th - B2	IRC 52	
10th - Z86

Rolex Middle Sea Race: Results

On ORC the panorama is completely different. That oddity, I mean the Oceanis 430 is the only one that maintains the same position (who would say, an Oceanis 430 in third?) but there are a lot more small boats on the first 10.

1st -Grand Soleil 37
2th - SUN FAST 3200	
3th - Amapola	Oceanis 430	
4th - Dufour 34e p	
5th - Beneteau First 40.7
6th - X-40
7th -	MARTEN 49
8th -	Swan 60
9th - ELAN 340
10th - ELAN 40

Rolex Middle Sea Race: Results

From the big boats only the Martens 49 and the swan 60 remains on the top 10. Some are not racing in ORC (probably they know that the IRC favors big boats, or it is the opposite?) but for instance the CNB 76 that is 8th in IRC is 25th in ORC????, the Z86 that is 10th in IRC is 23th in ORC???, the Grand Soleil 37 is first in ORC and 14th in IRC?????

Rolex Middle Sea Race: Results

These are huge differences and show that something is still very wrong with the rating systems.

There are several top NA working with the rating authorities on the ORC and that has contributed for an increasingly accurate rating regarding true boat performance in different conditions. Contrary to the IRC it is also an open system without nothing hidden and that allows more transparency in what regards all the process.


----------



## PCP

*Sly 43*

I post about a lot of boats and I like most of them even if they are not boats I would like to own, at least at the present time. Well, this one I would like to have.

So why would I like to have this one if I have a 40ft and the size fits me well? Because this boat has about the same weight of my boat and probably the admissible load would be very similar, in fact the tankage is not very different. So why would I prefer this to mine that I find also beautiful and fast?

Just because I find this one even more beautiful.... and faster, with the same type of sailing performance of my boat, I mean, a great upwind potential and an overall balanced performance.

Regarding the Comet 41s It has the same type of hull but this one is lighter, uses E-glass laminates sandwiching a PVC foam core infused by epoxy-vyniliester resin a reinforcement carbon grid vacuum bagged and laminated to the hull and composite bulkheads. A top building that allows a very light boat (7880kg) with a considerable B/D ratio (32%) considering 2.55m of draft and a lead torpedo keel. Probably I would prefer a 2.25m keel, that would mean the same RM but with a superior B/D ratio due to an heavier bulb.

The 42 was already a great boat, this one (that is a new boat with a different hull) seems just better specially in what regards cruising. This one has a much nicer interior

Just to give an Idea of the speed potential have a look at this video with the Sly 42:






Regarding the Sly 42 (that was European yacht of the year in 2008), the 43 has a much nicer interior, it is beamier (3.96 to 3.80) and even so remains relatively narrow boat for a 43ft and is slightly bigger 12.97 to 12.80m. There is only one thing that I would like to see different and that's the design of the transom/ final part of the hull. I would have preferred not such a fast transition between the bottom and the side of the hull. Some say that shape allows a better upwind performance (at the cost at a superior downwind stability) but I am not totally convinced.

Now just have a look and see if it is not a WOW!!! boat. It is, at least for me















The photo of the interior does not make justice to it (too much light). Just look at this video and you understand what I mean:


----------



## PCP

*Do you want a nice new 37ft cruiser for 77777 euros?*

this one:



If you are not European it will be 19% cheaper because the price includes already VAT.

Well, you have to run and I bet that from early hours in the morning there will be a queue to be the first to enter the Hamburg boat show

This price is only for the first that arrive to the stand and put a sign on a contract. The second will be a bit more expensive and so on till the 11th boat that will be sold at a "normal" price : 89 131 euros (including 19% VAT).

That is a funny publicity stunt and if it works (and I think it is going to work) it is a clever move and it can give a nice movie: the race for the Varianta


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## Faster

Good looking boat.. I like!

After looking at the web site I think she looks better with a dodger than without.. and some kind of cove stripe would be nice.


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## PCP

*Two new flag ships, one from Jeanneau (the 64) other from Dufour, the 560.*

Two very different boats. I don't like the high ass from the jeanneau. I prefer the fat but low ass from the Dufour

Jeanneau 64









Dufour 560


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## PCP

*Dufour 500 barbecue.*

Yes, the Dufour 500 is a nice boat for a mass market cruiser. It even looks like a performance boat.



But of what use is a beautiful boat if you make it ugly with a ugly accessories? I am talking about a barbecue. Yes very nice for cruising. I had one in my previous boat. I could not let it on place because it would get a lot of water sailing upwind so I have to dismount it and mount it whenever I wanted to use, a pain in the ass and a displeasure to the eyes.

So, have a good look at this:






I like also that freezer on the cockpit even if it was to have a generator to have power for it but this is a mainstream cruiser not a performance boat so the odds is that the typical owner would have not only a generator but also AC.


----------



## PCP

*Umberto Felci*

The Dufour 500 and 560 look incredibly beautiful for the interior space they provide. They are as elegant as performance boats and make the miracle of having the interior of a more comfortable main market cruiser. Looking at then we easily see that they come from the same designer a great one that is known by its fast and beautiful boats, Umberto Felci (a retired racer). Let's have a look at some of his designs, starting by the two Dufours:

Dufour 500






Dufour 560





Dufour 410






ADRIA SCUDERIA 50






Dufour 36p











Ice 62






Ice 44






Advanced 60






Sensei 9M






This is just a small show of what he is being doing recently. He is doing much more than what I can find in video. Have a looK:

Felci Yacht Design - Our Projects

Thet all have something in common: Beauty

Thanks to Felci for adding a lot of beauty to the sail world

An interview with the man (Italian):


----------



## PCP

*Middle of the sea race*

Morning Glory, a Z86, a relatively old boat (2003) won in real time. Old but fast: narrow, big (86ft) and narrow on the light wind conditions won about 2 hours to a Mills 72 and about 5 hours to the Hugo Boss Open 60.






Looking behind to the ones that are still racing particularly to performance cruising boats with 45ft of smaller, at Pantellaria Island control point we can see that the guys om the Sunfast 3200 and the ones on the Grand Soleil 37 continue do do a great race.

The Sunfast has a real time of d3 h8 m19 s24 while the Grand Soleil 37 with d3 h3 m28 s35 is about 5 hours faster. Both boats are well sailed. On compensated IRC the Sunfast is on 18th and the Grand Soleil in 14th.

Another boats doing a great race: An Elan 410 with d3 h1 m24 s57 is about half an hour behind a J 122 d3 h0 m8 s6 (on compensated the positions are inverted) while a J133 is ahead of the J 122 by about an hour and a half with d2 h22 m21 s58. In the middle of both boats a J111 with d3 h0 m15 s5. Among these boats a X40 is also making a great race with d3 h1 m17 s15, ahead of the Elan 410 and i hour behind the J122.

Off course the J111 and the SF3200 even if with a basic cruising interior are basically race boats while the others are performance cruisers with a good cruising interior.

The J122 is only 7 hours behind the first of the 40 class racers (d2 h15 m51 s13) but the third and the fourth class 40 are behind one with d3 h21 m54 s14 and the other with d3 h2 m23 s41.

Another interesting results but not as good: A Dehler 34 with d3 h9 m9 s15, a First 40.7 with d3 h4 m55 s51, another Elan 410 with d3 h4 m11 s47, another J122 with d3 h4 m16 s2, a First 40 with d3 h4 m55 s30, a Solaris one 42 with d3 h4 m24 s13.

That oddity that I was talking about and was making an impossible time, the Beneteau Oceanis 430 went off the classification (they were racing with the engine?).

A movie with that J122 that is doing well, on last year's race.






The J122 has a funny name "Otra vez" means in Spanish again and here they are "again" doing a great race.


----------



## PCP

*New Arcona 380*

Looks good in a conservative sort of way







If the 380 is comparatively as fast as the 340, the performances would not be conservative, as the looks, but outstanding.

Let's compare it with the Salona 38, a reference in that size and segment:

The Arcona is smaller (11.28 to 11.50m), heavier (6850kg to 6500kg) beamier (3.80m to 3.62m) with about the same B/D ratio (35%) but while the standard draft of the Salona is 1.98 the one from Arcona is 2.10m and while the Arcona keel is a bulbed one the one from the Salona is a more efficient torpedo keel.

In the end the RM provided by the keel should be similar but the Arcona will have more form, stability. Curiously with that extra stability the Arcona has not more sail area but a bit less ( 86.5 to 88.40m2). I would say that it would need more sail area to compensate the extra beam...but anyway the performances are going to be close.

The designer, Stefan Qviberg , (the same that designs all other Arcona) says about the Arcona 380:

*"Early 2000's I was commissioned to design the Arcona 400 and 370 - my goal then was to design something completely new and unique - the ultimate cruiser / racer. A family boat of world class and a racer that would compete well in both in regatta and ocean racing. 14 years, more than 300 delivered boats .... speak for themselves...

Development has since moved with incredible speed... and stimulates now boats with high stiffness and large sail area - for speed in all winds.

...The mission is the same as 14 years ago, but today the competition is considerably tougher. The market offers a large number of boats with different characteristics and qualities in size from 38 to 40 feet...

We will build another elegant perfomance cruiser, a boat with a unique feel and unsurpassed sailing pleasure!

The classic Arcona profile will remain as model as well as comfort and style. A feeling that can only be created in the harmony between thought-out function and woodwork in classic materials and of the highest caliber.

Arcona 380 is going to be easy, stable and deliver a sailing experience far beyond the ordinary. The hull is a natural extension of the line that began with successful Arcona 340. Sailing characteristics of the 340-ball has surpassed even my expectations (2nd on ORCi Championships in Santahamina, total victory Ornö Around this year, etc.). Arcona 380 is a direct development of this model.

Hull, deck and inner liner will be produced with the infusion method, which ensures optimized weight and quality.

Arcona 380 will have a sail plan with non-overlapping headsail and a, relatively speaking, somewhat larger mainsail than previous models. Everything to simplify management and keep costs down on the sail wardrobe.

High stability will be achieved with the same type of composite steel fin with lead bulb of the previously models. .."*

The boat is going to hit the water in the Summer of next year...and it seems that they will deliver 5 boats in the Summer, all already sold on the drawings. Now, that is impressive since the boat will only be presented in the Spring.


----------



## PCP

*Oceanis 38 / Luffe 3.6*



PCP said:


> ...
> 
> The Oceanis 38 has been raising a lo of interest and some of its characteristics are revolutionary at least in what regards mass market boats, namely its interior.
> ....
> Certainly the question is: Are the sail performance completely different and the amazing answer will be no. The Luffe 36.6 will be more rewarding sailing, almost for sure with an overall better performer specially upwind but in what cruising regards it will not be a very big difference with the advantage to the Oceanis in what regards sailing with much less heel and being much more stable and easy to sail downwind (*and probably faster, given it the right amount of sail*).
> ....
> Regarding sail performance the nice hull of the Oceanis based on Open boat design give the impression that it is a very fast boat even in the category of performance boats. That is not the case and on a recent test with many cruisers on the water (*light wind*) the Oceanis was not even a match for a Varianta 37 (that is a downgraded and very inexpensive version of an Hanse) while the true performance boats like the Dehler 38 were incomparably better.
> 
> That has to due with weight the the poor running rigging, lesser control on the sails, less sail area (related with the boat RM). There is talk of a more sportive version. I doubt it because then the price of the boat would increase dramatically and what is going to make this a top seller boat is what the boat offers already for a very interesting price.


After having post this I have read the test on the Oceanis on the Voile and Voiliers magazine and some more information is available.

They measured these speeds:

With 22k trw at 50º of trw - 7K

With 20/25K trw at 150º of trw - 10K

with 17K trw at 135º of trw -8.5K

So it seems that as I have supposed the boat contrary to light wind performance has a very good downwind performance with strong wind and even upwind with enough wind the performance is very good for such a beamy boat.

But that very good downwind performance was done with full main and a big asymmetric spinnaker. It seems that they had a lot of fun sailing the boat and were also an experienced crew. What cruiser will carry a big asymmetric spinnaker with 22/25K on that boat? Certainly not alone and if with a crew it will have to be an experienced one.

With my boat (Comet 41 s) sailing alone with 25K TRW downwind typically I have a main with one or two reefs and a reefed genoa and even so I am doing about the same speeds they have measured here with a big asymmetric spinnaker. Of course I could went way faster I am sure, with a crew, even with another experienced sailor, with a better sailor than me or even without my wife.

Bottom point, yes, that is a very good sailing boat for a mass main market cruiser with a very good stability downwind and able to carry a lot of sail. If sailed downwind with a lot of sail, a very fast boat, specially if we consider that it is not a performance boat.

Anyway a very stable and easy to sail boat with a good sailing performance even if sailed as most cruisers will sail it, offering a huge interior with a great layout and design quality and that is what most cruisers want and what the boat was designed for.

However it is good to remember that on that Norwegian sail test with the Luffe 3.6, even if not so specific about speeds and sailing points as the French one on the Oceanis, they say that the Luffe, also with Spinnaker will go at 9k with 17k of trw and that seems at least a comparable performance downwind with strong wind, but I bet the Oceanis will be more forgiving and easy to sail on those conditions.

I am sure that upwind and in light winds the performance of the Luffe will be considerably better. Again on the Luffe test they don't give much details but they say the boat will go upwind at over 6.5K and they refer that the test went with winds between 8 and 16K but they did not refer what was the wind speed for that boat speed neither the wind angle, but I am sure it was closer to the wind than the 50º where the Oceanis went at 7K with 22k wind.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

olianta said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Let mi say that despite many doubts I made up my mind and placed an order for a new Luffe 37.09 a little bit customised according to my needs. The keel would be 1.85 instead of the standard 1.70 to get a stiffer boat (though already the CG Og Luffe 37.09 is lower than that of Luffe 37). I thin that with a B/D of 44% and the CG further low I will have a stable, stiff and fast upwind boat. The mast is moved back a few centimeters in order to enjoy a self-tacking jib adequate to the mainsail: 25/24 sq.m., instead of the standard 26/25 sq.m. This is 2 sq.m. less sail area than the standard configuration but still enjoying an almost 20 SA/D. The reverse sloping stern will have a small teak covered bathing platform with an additional step. Cockpit benches will be extended from 1.30 to 1.70 in order to be able to lie, but with the extension can be removed in order to be able to steer standing if wished placing feet comfortably when'd the boat is heeled on the leeward side of the sloped teak floor. The hull and deck will be vacuum molded with epoxy with balsa core (Oluf uses foam core in polyester hulls only). I wanted to retain the bridge deck (though my wife dislikes it) on which there is a recess for the traveller). I will have a spinnaker pole but instead of a spinnaker I will have a code 1 sail which I liked vey much for easy sailing in lighter winds, which is easily hoisted on its own fulrler, which you can even keep rolled without need to immediate removal. Oluf says that if poled out you can sail it even dead downwind. There will be some modifications inside as well. I know the boat is narrow and tight inside but almost all of the time I will be singlehandling it in the Black Sea and the Med (no ocean sailing and no extended trips in opens sea). But as the saying does better grace than space.The instruments will be placed on a board above the companion way and there will be solar panel on the cabin roof. Integrated autopilot (though a rather expensive option) will be fitted. There are many other details to sort out. The good thing with this boatyard is that you can ask for advice and modifications. The smallest (now in terms of weight and beam) Luffe is a long time bestseller of the yard and they have done a lot to improve the model during the years (and I believe my future boat will be in the same line of improvements).
> 
> Ok, this was related to the postings about pros and cons regarding cruising in a smaller performance oriented boat and I wish that my future Luffe 37.09 will be both traditional and modern interesting boat.
> 
> Rumen


Congrats on your purchase, Rumen. I am sure you will be happy with that choice. And don't let anyone tell you the Oceanis 38 would have been a better choice. Ridiculous!! :laugher:laugher


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Congrats on your purchase, Rumen. I am sure you will be happy with that choice. And don't let anyone tell you the Oceanis 38 would have been a better choice. Ridiculous!! :laugher:laugher


Nobody had said that an Oceanis 38 would be a better choice to Rumen. If he had choose that boat after sailing that boat 37.09 and the 3.6 for sure that for him the 37.09 is the boat he wants regarding how the boat sails, feels, looks and the type of interior.

What I have said was that for living extensiveness aboard the Oceanis 38 is a better boat and not even regarding Rumen's choice but the Luffe 3.6. But that applies also to the 37.09 tha has not standing height and an even smaller interior, comparing with the 36.6 that has already standing height. The interior space and storage is incomparably bigger on the Oceanis.

I believe Rumen is not planning to live extensively on his sailboat.

I was not talking about Rumen choice (37.09) but comparing the recent Luffe 3.6 with the Oceanis 38 regarding advantages and disadvantages regarding cruising.

Certainly the Oceanis 38 will be a better choice for many and that is one of the reasons why it is going to be much more popular than the Luffe 3.6, even if not so beautiful, not even close. That is also why Beneteau, the bigger boat builder, that uses the best NA, is not proposing boats designed along the same lines and criteria Luffe's are designed: They do not answer the needs and desires of most cruisers.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> Nobody had said that an Oceanis 38 would be a better choice to Rumen. If he had choose that boat after sailing that boat 37.09 and the 3.6 for sure that for him the 37.09 is the boat he wants regarding how the boat sails, feels, looks and the type of interior.
> 
> What I have said was that for living extensiveness aboard the Oceanis 38 is a better boat and not even regarding Rumen's choice but the Luffe 3.6. But that applies also to the 37.09 tha has not standing height and an even smaller interior, comparing with the 36.6 that has already standing height. The interior space and storage is incomparably bigger on the Oceanis.
> 
> I believe Rumen is not planning to live extensively on his sailboat.
> 
> I was not talking about Rumen choice (37.09) but comparing the recent Luffe 3.6 with the Oceanis 38 regarding advantages and disadvantages regarding cruising.
> 
> Certainly the Oceanis 38 will be a better choice for many and that is one of the reasons why it is going to be much more popular than the Luffe 3.6, even if not so beautiful, not even close. That is also why Beneteau, the bigger boat builder, that uses the best NA, is not proposing boats designed along the same lines and criteria Luffe's are designed: They do not answer the needs and desires of most cruisers.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


One reflection I have with all these test is that, as I have said before, it is very difficult to evaluate the numbers that are given. For instance the Solaris 37 tested in Sweden with Salona 38 and Elan 400 had 2,4m keel, carbon mast, very expensive sails and no inventory nor any equipment. The Elan was a "special edition" for the norwegian importers personal use for competitions, it did not even have an anchor windlass nor any sign of wood anywhere on deck.

How many normal customers will buy boats like these - very, very few. And after that they will load them down. One boat can perhaps take this without a big loss in speed while others suffer more.

And furthermore, it is vey difficult to calibrate instruments, it can take a whole season for me and then I need to recalibrate due to growth on paddle wheel...

Luffe 36,6 doing 9 knots with normal sails in 17 knots thrue? Hm, perhaps but I guess once again in best equipment state and no load. And we will not sail like that normally.

And then we try to get access to test sail ourselves and still meet boats like those above and no wind (very often) or too much wind (seldeom).

So end result is that we tend to buy, testsail and sell. Or?

Anders


----------



## PCP

*Test sails*



JAndersB said:


> One reflection I have with all these test is that, as I have said before, it is very difficult to evaluate the numbers that are given. For instance the Solaris 37 tested in Sweden with Salona 38 and Elan 400 had 2,4m keel, carbon mast, very expensive sails and no inventory nor any equipment. The Elan was a "special edition" for the norwegian importers personal use for competitions, it did not even have an anchor windlass nor any sign of wood anywhere on deck.
> 
> How many normal customers will buy boats like these - very, very few. And after that they will load them down. One boat can perhaps take this without a big loss in speed while others suffer more.
> 
> And furthermore, it is vey difficult to calibrate instruments, it can take a whole season for me and then I need to recalibrate due to growth on paddle wheel...
> 
> Luffe 36,6 doing 9 knots with normal sails in 17 knots thrue? Hm, perhaps but I guess once again in best equipment state and no load. And we will not sail like that normally.
> 
> And then we try to get access to test sail ourselves and still meet boats like those above and no wind (very often) or too much wind (seldeom).
> 
> So end result is that we tend to buy, testsail and sell. Or?
> 
> Anders


Test sails are not all the same. A good test sail is hard to get and few magazines have reliable ones. Voile and voiliers is one exception, Yacht.de is another. Both say how the boat was equipped, the test sail conditions and give exact figures with all elements regarding speed and how it was achieved including sea conditions.

I prefer comparative tests with both boats on the water and even if those two magazines do them they are not the more frequent. The Oceanis 38 was tested in the water with the Varianta 37 with light winds, being the Varianta noticeably fast and I am sure that the Varianta had mo racing sails but cheap ones (you can see on the pictures).

I sail tested once a Luffe 4004. That was a windy day (about 20K) and the boat had non reefing racing sails. Oluf was sailing the boat and with the main alone we were soon doing +8k. Those narrow boats have little drag and can easily get to hull speed, even a bit over it. remember that they were sailing the 36.6 with a spinnaker when they reach 9K with 17K wind. A more light beamy boat like the Pogo 10.50 would probably reach the 9K with considerably less wind or with that wind that speed without a spinnaker. But if you loaded it too much the lose in speed would probably be more noticeable than on the Luffe.

The Oceanis looks like a Pogo...except in the weight, RM and sail area. off course, downwind speed too.

I agree with you regarding the boats being unloaded and with very little tankage aboard. A real cruising boat (except Eric's one) will have most of the time a thousand kg more and not all boats are affected the same way by an heavy load.

Regarding Calibrated instruments that can have some effect but testers are not dumb and for sure they have a look at both instruments: GPS speed and log speed and that limit margin error.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

It is very seldom no current when sailing and since we are speaking about boatspeed differences around 0,5-1,5 knots that can easily be overtaken by the current. If boat log is not calibrated it is very difficult to compare gps and boat instrument speed to evaluate the current. And sailing back and forth to evaluate this demands absolutely 90 degrees TWA and also 90 degrees True Wave Angle and Symmetric Weed Growth - that are new therms for the instrument makers to introduce.

All these new showboats I have tested, also the Dragonfly that had already been used for a year, have had non calibrated instruments and are also often lacking enough instruments to set up SOG and GPS Speed, TWA/AWA and TWS/AWS.

Of course you can get some picture of current by observing markers etc. but still we need to be careful when talking about speeds in tests. And even if testers declare conditions and boat set up it does not help us that much since we do not know how the boat will take another 1000 kg of load, with heavier mast and lower draft.

Anders


----------



## Kubota

*Re: Test sails*



PCP said:


> Test sails are not all the same. A good test sail is hard to get and few magazines have reliable ones. Voile and voiliers is one exception, Yacht.de is another. Both say how the boat was equipped, the test sail conditions and give exact figures with all elements regarding speed and how it was achieved including sea conditions.
> 
> I prefer comparative tests with both boats on the water and even if those two magazines do them they are not the more frequent. The Oceanis 38 was tested in the water with the Varianta 37 with light winds, being the Varianta noticeably fast and I am sure that the Varianta had mo racing sails but cheap ones (you can see on the pictures).
> 
> I sail tested once a Luffe 4004. That was a windy day (about 20K) and the boat had non reefing racing sails. Oluf was sailing the boat and with the main alone we were soon doing +8k. Those narrow boats have little drag and can easily get to hull speed, even a bit over it. remember that they were sailing the 36.6 with a spinnaker when they reach 9K with 17K wind. A more light beamy boat like the Pogo 10.50 would probably reach the 9K with considerably less wind or with that wind that speed without a spinnaker. But if you loaded it too much the lose in speed would probably be more noticeable than on the Luffe.
> 
> The Oceanis looks like a Pogo...except in the weight, RM and sail area. off course, downwind speed too.
> 
> I agree with you regarding the boats being unloaded and with very little tankage aboard. A real cruising boat (except Eric's one) will have most of the time a thousand kg more and not all boats are affected the same way by an heavy load.
> 
> Regarding Calibrated instruments that can have some effect but testers are not dumb and for sure they have a look at both instruments: GPS speed and log speed and that limit margin error.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Could you post anything more about the varianta and oceanis test? 
Thanks


----------



## PCP

I am improving the thread making the search engine a lot more efficient and reread this old comment post from Slap. It is just so nice that I will re post it again:

*"Sailing is a slow, wet, expensive, time consuming activity that doesn't make any sense. So one's choice in boats does not have to make sense, either. It just has to make you happy."*


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## PCP

*Varianta 37 - 44 and Oceanis 38*



Kubota said:


> Could you post anything more about the varianta and oceanis test?
> Thanks


On that comparative sailing test for electing the Voile Magazine boat of the year, with all boats in the water at the same time, they selected the opinion of several testers regarding each boat and made also a general comment by the editor.

In a very free translation of the more significant parts:

*OCEANIS 38:*

*"Very Agreeable at sea and in the Port...I like the Arch integrated in the dodger. It makes a lot of sense"*. Another tester: *"I don't like this type of boats that pretend to do everything at the same time. The interior lacks of ventilation"* another says: *"The sensation of interior space is incredible. I like the open space including the front cabin on the saloon and I like the big hull ports that provide a great view"*.

*VARIANTA 37:*

*"The performances on the water are a good surprise, with 7.2K on the light winds. I had a good feeling at the wheel. That's true that the interior is spartan but that is not chocking and it is even coherent with the boat"*. Another one: *That's a good boat for start cruising, we can have a boat with a limited budget and with time we can add equipment and even better the interior. It is a great boat for the price. Finally we can have a new boat for the price of an used one."* From the editors: *"The boat has the Hanse 370 hull and it is incredibly good in light winds. The rigging is simple but it has the essential. The interior is minimalist but not uncomfortable"*.

That comes as no surprise, the boat is basically an Hanse and the minimalist interior makes it lighter and therefore faster. The same happened with the Varianta 44 that is a fast boat. The Varianta 37 has a better interior and more equipment as well as more options regarding additional equipment.

Have a look at the Varianta 44 (also based also on an Hanse hull) sailing potential, even with strong winds:











Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Bavaria 37*

That's another boat that raised a good impression on that massive boat test: the Bavaria 37 that has the same hull of the 36 but has a completely new cabin and interior. A better boat no doubt for a great price, at least in Europe.

I specially like the four winches on the cockpit a thing that only Bavaria offers (even on option) on this market segment.

Click at 360º view:

Bavaria Yachtbau: CRUISER 37


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## desert rat

I love the videos and the hot fast new boats. I cant find a hot new fast schooner, does anyone build schooners presently?


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## Kubota

Thanks Paulo! I have to say, that I really like Varianta-it is a great concept, just a boat meant for sailing. It's a pity, that it didn't go that well with the 44...


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## PCP

Kubota said:


> Thanks Paulo! I have to say, that I really like Varianta-it is a great concept, just a boat meant for sailing. It's a pity, that it didn't go that well with the 44...


I think they had rectified the errors with the 44, specially regarding the market it was pointed to. The 44 was meant basically a big inexpensive boat for club racing. The boat had a uncomfortable interior without a good galley and did not even had an anchor locker.

The 37 is meant as a basic cruising boat and has all that the 44 did not have (and should have) and a good list of options for more equipment. I believe it is going to be a sales success.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Traditional sailboats*



desert rat said:


> I love the videos and the hot fast new boats. I cant find a hot new fast schooner, does anyone build schooners presently?


If you look well you will find all kinds of boats being built:



If that is your poison, have the money for it and like traditional boats you can order one of these and when you have it the water, invite me for a sail:











Regards

Paulo


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## desert rat

Paulo
Those boats send shivers up and down my back. Buying one would put me in the boat bum catagory. Even at that I am tempted. Thinking 32 to 34 ft double ender. Schooners are an irrational desire. I have rationalized, more sail lower canter of effort, Ha Ha. Thanks for the pictures.


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## PCP

*Dufour 500*

Getting back to that Felci design with a nice barbecue (alright the rest is also well designed), some would say that it is a beautiful boat but not a great cruising boat. Some would think that a good cruising boat or a passagemaker has to be ugly or at least not as beautiful as a performance boat.

Well, one of the first Dufour 500 was sold to a Brazilian that picked up the boat in France and sailed it to Brazil. I would say that with moderately bad weather the boat seems very stable...and fast.






The boat has a good and nice cruising interior:











A very nice design. I hope it would help to get Dufour in its tracks again.


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## PCP

*Giraglia yacht race 2013*

Yes, it was three months ago that the big classic med race took place, this year better than ever with 230 sailingboats racing coming from 10 different countries, but I was cruising without internet and missed this one. I should not have missed it because it would put me happy: My boat (Comet 41s) made 2th and 3th in ORC (compensated time).

Line honors went to a big wally cento (beautiful performance cruiser), on compensated on IRC the winner was a XP44 that make an incredible race and on ORC the victory come to a X35 that made a non less magnificent one. As the X35 was only racing in ORC and the XP 44 was only racing in IRC I would say that we will never know who made the better race and that is *STUPID!!!*.

I will come to this later, for know some images about that old Med classic that has been raced since 1953. It starts in St Tropez, passes by the Giraglia Island and finishes in Genova (243 NM).

*Don't miss this video, it is fantastic!!!*











The winner in real time, the wally passing like a bullet a Grand Soleil 54:






And regarding amateurs, they come from far, even from Russia. A nice movie aboard a Russian First 40:


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## PCP

*Not bad for a "cheap" boat: 2012 Bavaria 36*

This is a nostalgic post. This was my old boat, anyway I have found several interesting movies with the boat doing well (even with lousy sailors):


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## bobperry

I did this schoon er a few years back. It combines a traditional look with a modern hull, and an all carbon rig. It's quite fast and has upset some people in San Francisco's schooner races. It has beaten some much bigger schooners. I think the boat may now be persona non grata at those races. Too bad. It's a kick in the pants to sail, very stiff and powerful, big spade rudder and steers like a dream.


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> I did this schoon er a few years back. It combines a traditional look with a modern hull, and an all carbon rig. It's quite fast and has upset some people in San Francisco's schooner races. It has beaten some much bigger schooners. I think the boat may now be persona non grata at those races. Too bad. It's a kick in the pants to sail, very stiff and powerful, big spade rudder and steers like a dream.


Very nice boat Bob. If you can send me those pictures bigger by email. I would like to post them bigger. The boat deserves it. If you want send also more details I would like to make a post about that boat. It seems very interesting to me.

regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Paulo:
I'm happy to do that. Can you open acad .dwg files? I could send you some drawings too.

Can you give me your email address by PM? Do I have it already?


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## bobperry

Paulo:
Either I just sent two emails off to you with a bunch of info on the schooner or,,,,some other Paulo,,,somewhere,,,,is going to get two strange emails.

Let me know if you get the emails. I sent pics and drawings. Let me know if you want more.


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## olianta

bjung said:


> Congrats on your purchase, Rumen. I am sure you will be happy with that choice. And don't let anyone tell you the Oceanis 38 would have been a better choice. Ridiculous!! :laugher:laugher


Thanks! A Luffe 37.09 (the way it will be made for me) cannot compare to the Oceanis 38 in anything. They are antipodes. I think that whatever compromises are made in the segment of 36-38 sailing yachts one can never get a decent home with good sailing capabilities. If I had the time to cruise in the Med like Paulo does (6-7 months) I would certainly have chosen a boat with bigger space to live above and under deck (certainly Luffe 3.6 than Oceanis 38). For the time being I will be sailing weekends only and/or certain weeks. I am not a marina dweller, neither an anchorage one, therefore I do not need that kind of charter boat like the Oceanis 38. In my opinion modern hulls have evolved because of two major trends: (a) better speed downwind (because upwind there are limitations) and (b) bigger living space. They are neither more seaworthy, nor sea kindly. And the Luffe 37 is not an old hull because of narrow beam, reverse stern and traditional bow. I think she would be more efficient both in light and strong winds and she will behave certainly better in waves, especially upwind. 
Rumen


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## PCP

olianta said:


> Thanks! A Luffe 37.09 (the way it will be made for me) cannot compare to the Oceanis 38 in anything. They are antipodes. I think that whatever compromises are made in the segment of 36-38 sailing yachts one can never get a decent home with good sailing capabilities. If I had the time to cruise in the Med like Paulo does (6-7 months) I would certainly have chosen a boat with bigger space to live above and under deck (certainly Luffe 3.6 than Oceanis 38). For the time being I will be sailing weekends only and/or certain weeks. I am not a marina dweller, neither an anchorage one, therefore I do not need that kind of charter boat like the Oceanis 38. In my opinion modern hulls have evolved because of two major trends: (a) better speed downwind (because upwind there are limitations) and (b) bigger living space. They are neither more seaworthy, nor sea kindly. And the Luffe 37 is not an old hull because of narrow beam, reverse stern and traditional bow. I think she would be more efficient both in light and strong winds and she will behave certainly better in waves, especially upwind.
> Rumen


yes, the Oceanis 380 will have a better speed downwind (specially with strong wind), much more interior space, standing height, much less heel but above all will be a more stable platform and an easier to sail boat solo or with a short crew, specially downwind. No, talking in general terms these type of boats are not more seaworthy, nor less (it all depends on each particular design) but they have for the same weight a much bigger overall stability (that's why they are a more stable platform) and they are not more sea kindly, quite the opposite but they are not charter boats.

They are used as charter boats more than boats like Luffe because they are less expensive (and therefore more profitable) and because most sailors prefer to sail in them. Some years ago there was at least a Luffe used as charter boat that does not make Luffes or any other type of boat charter boats.

Don't take me wrong, I love Luffe sailboats and some years back I was seriously considering the Luffe 43ds (I was hopping Oluf would make a new model with a more modern hull, like the one on the 45) but what you say about the Oceanis 38 is just not fair nor true.

The Oceanis 38 has a sailing performance different from the one of the Luffe 37.09 but I bet that its racing rating will be very close if not superior and that means in absolute terms that in overall performance the boats will be very close.

Regarding a boat with 37/38ft not making a good "home" with good sailing performance, if you consider the performance of the Luffe 37.09 good, than you are wrong and the Oceanis 38 is prove of that.

Other boats like the Salona 38 or the Dehler 38 have also a good cruising interior, standing height, lots of storage and a good galley and they will provide a far better performance. They will provide a good second "home", at least if we are talking about a family of four (two children).

Click in 360º

http://www.dehler.com/#/gb/new-38/exterieur/

360 - Salona Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Bob Perry 41ft Schooner*

That's amazing a 41ft schooner! I will not ask to Bob Perry why? because I have read the explanation??? why the owner wanted that rig on a 40ft boat and I read also that Bob wanted to make it a 50ft boat (and I can understand why). About all that this comment by the owner is very clear, I mean between the lines

"*One day well into the design Bob told me he absolutely had to have 12 more inches to make the lazarettes and swim step work. I am a product designer and I have fought many battles over 1 mm so I asked Bob to prove it to me. After he described the problem I concluded that only 6 inches were needed. He agreed. That was the only time I gave on LOD or draft."*

Specs and plans

Yes, I had also my share of clients like that

The boat is beautiful and I guess it would not very dificult to make it a cutter gaffer that in my opinion would make more sense and would preserve the traditional look.

The only thing I have some difficulty in understanding is the weight. The Original design was for 30 000 lbs with a ballast of 12600lbs but ended up with 32000Lbs. The boat has carbon masts (they are painted to look like wood?) and the materials and building methods are modern and top quality: Cedar Strip planking with a core and west epoxy system. The ballast is considerable due to the small draft (demanded by the owner) but even so it looks to me too heavy buy several thousands of Lbs. Bob Can you explain us why?

LOD 40'6" ...............Mast Height 49'7"
DWL 37'6" ........... Sail Area 1,046 sq. ft.
Beam 13'1"BWL 12'.....Fuel 100 g in two tanks
Draft 5'6".................Water 130 g in two tanks
Disp. 32,000 lbs.........Holding 50 g
Ballast 12,600 lbs.......Volvo 75hp saildrive with feathering autoprop 
BWL 12'....................D/L 270.9
Draft 5'6"..................SA/D 16.6
Disp. 32,000 lbs.
Ballast 12,600 lbs.

I really like the boat and can imagine it with 8000kg, a torpedo keel with 2.25m draft and a more modern rig, a cutter rig. Than I would not only find it beautiful but it would make it my type of boat, at least one of them


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## bobperry

Paulo:
Many thanks. That is a beautful display. You are Hired! You can run the Euro office for me.

I don't recall why the boat weighed 32,000 lbs. except that is what I have on the drawings so that is what I had in mind. Often times when I am beginning a new hull shape I don't include the dipslacement of the keel because I may not know what I am going to do with the keel yet. That may be the case here.

If you are simply remarking on why I designed it to be so heavy the reason is stability. As you know, San Francisco is a windy place. Typically on a summer afternoon you will have 20 to 25 knots steady in the Bay. I wanted the schooner to stand up and be a powerful, stiff boat. With that low draft I needed displacement to get the stability the client wanted.

Again, many thanks for the well thought out spread.


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## olianta

PCP said:


> Regarding a boat with 37/38ft not making a good "home" with good sailing performance, if you consider the performance of the Luffe 37.09 good, than you are wrong and the Oceanis 38 is prove of that.


I am not convinced about the sailing performance. It would be nice to get some impressions from someone who has sailed the boat not being her owner. I do not believe the commercial sail tests. And the rating, isn't it based on past performance in races? I hope that I would have the chance someday "to meet" an Oceanis 38 somewhere in the Med and to check our performance in the same conditions.

Rumen


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Many thanks. That is a beautful display. You are Hired! You can run the Euro office for me.
> 
> I don't recall why the boat weighed 32,000 lbs. except that is what I have on the drawings so that is what I had in mind. Often times when I am beginning a new hull shape I don't include the dipslacement of the keel because I may not know what I am going to do with the keel yet. That may be the case here.
> 
> If you are simply remarking on why I designed it to be so heavy the reason is stability. As you know, San Francisco is a windy place. Typically on a summer afternoon you will have 20 to 25 knots steady in the Bay. I wanted the schooner to stand up and be a powerful, stiff boat. With that low draft I needed displacement to get the stability the client wanted.
> 
> Again, many thanks for the well thought out spread.


Bob you are the first designer that had thank me to put a boat here. Some few had participate on the thread but you are "from the house" and it is with great pleasure that I have posted about the 41ft Schooner. But you are mistaken, the post looks good because the boat looks good and that's your merit not mine

I hope to post again about your new boat when the boat hits the water. Please when testing make a movie and take photos. I am sure that we are all interested in see how beautiful that boat is and how well it will sail.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

olianta said:


> PCP said:
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding a boat with 37/38ft not making a good "home" with good sailing performance, if you consider the performance of the Luffe 37.09 good, than you are wrong and the Oceanis 38 is prove of that.
> 
> I am not convinced about the sailing performance. It would be nice to get some impressions from someone who has sailed the boat not being her owner. I do not believe the commercial sail tests. And the rating, isn't it based on past performance in races? I hope that I would have the chance someday "to meet" an Oceanis 38 somewhere in the Med and to check our performance in the same conditions.
> 
> Rumen
> 
> 
> 
> The Oceanis 38 is not even released for manufacturing yet so there are no owners. But I have sailed her, albeit only in light winds and with ****ty sails but also driven her with 30 hp engine. And it did impress me and I see no reason why it would not get a high rating and would sail up to it IF one put some decent sails and deck hardware on it.
> 
> Anders
Click to expand...


----------



## Edward3

reprinted from Sails Magazine
no pics included

Life in the fast lane

With the race boat scene enjoying a purple patch, we gather together some of the more interesting grand prix yachts doing the rounds, with several of them set to be on the start line of the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race this year, writes Kevin Green.

Images Daniel Forster / Rolex / Courtesy Beau Geste Team / McConaghy Boats / Botin Partners / Carkeek Associates / Rolex / Carlo Borlenghi / Ker Yacht Design / McConaghy / Clipper Ventures / Volvo Ocean Race 2014-2015

The demise of the MedCup circuit for theTP52 has spurred on a wave of new designs from the previously TP-engaged architects, with the forty footers and 60-70 footers particularly exciting LOAs at the moment.

New Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race hopefuls this year range in size from Tony Kirby's Ker 46 and Matt Allen's exciting new Carkeek 60 (that I enjoyed peeking at while in Dubai recently) to new maxis, so going south will be an even more exciting spectacle this year. The Hobart will also see interesting foreign entrants such as Karl Kwok's powerful new Botin 80 that Mick Cookson is feverishly busy working on in New Zealand as I write. Chatting with project manager Gavin Brady about Kwok's new Beau Geste, he said to expect some real excitement if it's a northerly wind for the Rolex Sydney Hobart. Pushing it all the way south will be the brand new mini-maxi Alegre with accomplished owner-driver Andy Soriano calling the shots. The Mark Mills design is primarily built for the smoother waters of the Mediterranean but will excel if conditions get behind her ample beam. Then there's the hot 60s, with Max Klink's Botin IRC 65 Caro sure to test Shaun Carkeek's 60, Ichi Ban. Designer Harry Dunning has also been busy with a new 60-footer that McConaghy's are keeping under wraps right now.

40 FEET OF GRUNT
Elsewhere in the grand prix world the magic number is forty. "It seems like every designer has a 40-footer out there," laughed Tania Cookson while I was chatting to her the other day. Head of the 40 pack is Botin Partners, the design team who dominated the last five Med Cups and have now applied their TP52 design expertise to a "no compromise" 40- foot High Performance racing yacht. The first of these new super light weight racers is under construction for an Asian owner and will rate in both HPR and IRC while also being suitable for both inshore and offshore racing.

Probably the fastest growing fleet is the Class40 with numbers that are approaching the 150-boat Farr 40 fleet. I watched some of these exciting offshore boats in Marseilles a few months ago and they appeal to my singled-handed senses; with a toughness that reminded me of the Sydney 38 but with a box rule that rewards development, most of the major designers have one on the shelf. Class40 yachts have their big race next year, the 30,000-mile round-the-world Global Ocean Race 2014-15 with single-handed, double-handed and fully-crewed (four crew) teams competing in September.

The immediate test for these tough 40s will be the the Fastnet Race on August 11 and the good news is that entries have been extended to 380 boats this year, I noted Geoff Boettcher's Secret Men's Business 3.5 RP 51 on the list, so good luck Geoff.

Adding yet further excitement and perhaps controversy is the next Volvo Ocean Race, but of course only one design office feels the thrill, Farr, who got the gig for all of these new 65-foot canting keelers, much to the chagrin of the former race-winning designer Juan Kouyoumdjian.

As the Volvos shrink, in contrast the amateurs aboard the new Clipper yachts get more room to stretch their fee-paying butts on, with the launch of the Tony Castro 70-footers, which look remarkably like the old V70s, funnily enough. There's big Australian involvement in the Clipper 2013 race with an impressive 66 Aussies taking part and plenty of women, plus two skippers (Chris Hollis and Damien Parnham). They will perhaps take inspiration from winning Gold Coast skipper Richard Hewson, who has gone on to run his own Mini-Transat campaign this year.

FINALLY, SAFETY
Chatting to AC campaigner, match racer and offshore sailor Gavin Brady brought up the subject of safety. He reflected how two highly campaigned offshore teams found themselves in dire straits recently with George David's Rambler capsizing after losing the keel during the Fastnet Race and Carl Kwok's Farr 80 Beau Geste cracking during last year's Royal Akarana Yacht Club Auckland to Noumea race. Aboard Beau Geste Brady confessed to being very scared for his and the crew's lives. "Safety must come first, over everything else [when designing] yet both teams found themselves in life-threatening situations; the problem is that I don't think these lessons are filtering back down through our sport."

The new Beau Geste will have a lot more structure than the old boat seen here.

BOTIN 80 BEAU GESTE
Karl Kwok is one of the most active offshore racing owners, and his team are currently in the shed with Mick Cookson building the new Botin 80 Beau Geste, a replacement for the ill-fated Farr 80 that cracked through the middle in the Pacific last year, causing even experienced skipper Gavin Brady some serious alarm, as the told me on the phone from the Cookson yard in New Zealand. "We found out the hard way that structurally she wasn't an offshore boat," he said. The rescued boat's fittings are being cannibalised for the new one, which has made the design process a lot easier, with completion expected in time for the Rolex Sydney Hobart.

The new 80-footer is a lot different to the previous Farr design, said Brady, with a lot more structure in the boat, especially in the deck and some other engineering back aft. The AC veteran believes sailors should take a more active part in the design process.

"The offshore part of our sport is where designers need to stand up and take more notice, as people's lives are at stake," he says.

"The new boat is more of a coastal boat - for the Fastnet, Rolex Sydney Hobart, Bermuda and so on, with a similar beam because with a coastal race you've got to sail to VMG, both up and downwind, so a coastal boat is more of a Mediterranean style, maxi-worlds type of boat than say a Volvo 70."

The new carbon rocketship will have similar foils to a Volvo with daggerboards and a canting keel, yet with much more emphasis on all points of sail, so there is a relatively lighter keel.

"Right now the biggest gain in our sport is leeway which you reduce with dagger boards - like the Volvos," explains Brady,

With the new designs creating so much righting moment with the chines, beam, flat bottoms and volume forward, less power is required from the keel. (Recall the Vendee Globe this year when one of the water ballasted yachts made it home without a keel).

Solving the equation of displacement versus sail area versus righting moment is the main challenge for current design, says Brady.

"With these big hull chines we're finding that these big boats just don't heel as much - about 22 degrees of heel. So you don't need bulbs as big as when we sailed the old AC boats at 33 degrees of heel."

The McConaghy- built Botin 40 is an optimised grand prix boat designed to excel in coastal racing.

BOTIN HPR40
McConaghy Boats and Botin Partners have joined forces to launch the next generation of Grand Prix 40 racers. Moving away from the heavier IRC-oriented design, the HPR40 is optimised for the emerging race rule whilst still being competitive under IRC. Built using a female hull and deck moulds in pre-preg carbon with Nomex core - just like the TP52s - which minimises weight, the first of these boats has just gone to Japan. The deck layout includes a pedestal connected to the primaries, unusual for this size of race boat and there's a retractable drive arm to minimise drag.

The result is very high sail area to displacement and sail area to wetted area ratios, ensuring fast and exciting sailing, with an IRC 2012 TCC = 1.258.

Harken winches and deck hardware are complemented by a clean and simple deck layout, designed for efficient handling by the crew. To keep windage low all the lines run underneath the deck, while deck cavities are minimised to improve the water-tightness and weight reduction on the race course. A high modulus Hall Spar HPR optimised rig is standard.

The Botin Class40 Custom has been designed to regain the world championship for Gonzalo Botin.

BOTIN CUSTOM CLASS40
Former world Class40 champion Gonzalo Botin is building this highly customised version, within the Class40 box rule, at Spanish builder Longitud Cero. The strongly supported Class40 has its Global Race (circumnavigation) next year and these boats also do shorthanded transatlantics, so the design has to be strong with plenty of righting moment while also minimising drag. Mods include a highly optimised keel bulb to achieve just that. The boat is designed to be a good all-round performer in varying offshore conditions, and the hull is designed to reflect this. The hull has a full bow with chines running most of the waterline and the rig is far aft to allow for larger headsails to maximise off-wind performance.

Destined for Hobart this year, the Botin IRC65 Caro.

BOTIN 65 GENTLEMAN RACER
This 65-foot advanced German-built design, named Caro, from the pen of Botin just launched and is destined to compete in many international events, including this year's Rolex Sydney Hobart. The owner of this racer-cruiser, Max Klink, wants to race with friends as well as top sailors, so automated and electrical systems are a major part of the Spanish design house's brief. The powerful hull has plenty of form stability, a lifting keel to reduce the enormous 4.8-metre draft and twin rudders for managing the ample beam. A righting moment of 15 per cent has been quoted. Sails are understood to be from Doyle's in New Zealand and the professionals on board come from the same. Caro's crew for Cowes Week includes Volvo ocean veterans Stuart Bannatyne, Tom Addis, Michi Müller, Richard Bouzaid and Mark Bartlett along with owner Klink. A few days after Cowes the real test will come with the Fastnet Rock in Ireland.

Derived from the successful TP52s, the Carkeek 60 is designed for offshore, especially when the name reads Ichi Ban.

CARKEEK 60
Shaun Carkeek is aiming to replicate his design success in the TP52 circuit with this new commission from Sydney's Matt Allen. The Hobart veteran expects builders, Dubai's Premier Composites, to have his new boat ready just in time for the great race south. The new boat has a rounded hull shape derived from TP52s such as Hooligan and Team New Zealand, so this new 60 comes from the same family but the extra length should allow him to sail away from the TPs, especially upwind. Allen chose 60 feet as the optimum size because of his predominant passion, offshore racing, and the average wave patterns he would encounter on the 628-nautical-mile Rolex Sydney Hobart.

"Off the wind I'd hope to be faster than the V70 but we have to make sure there's enough righting moment to offset the fact that it's not a canting keel boat," said Allen.

So crew weight will be crucial to the new boat with 17 anticipated on the rail for this year's Rolex Sydney Hobart. Many of the crew come from the retired Loki campaign and will include sailing master Gordon Maguire while Volvo sailor Will Oxley will navigate. The 10.5-tonne hull is being built using unidirectional carbon pre-preg and honeycomb sandwich core materials laid in female moulds. The project is being managed by former Camper project manager Neil Cox. Cox is overseeing the six-month build with delivery expected in November to Sydney where the Southern Spars rig will be installed. Spars are the latest TPT (thin ply technology), lighter and stiffer than previous carbon masts. Final commissioning will also be done by Central Coast Hydraulics - hydraulic power will be used for winches so the engine will be on all the time. For smarts, B&G gear from Guy Oliver at Olectric is being installed. The new Ichi Ban is designed to win primarily under IRC but should be competitive under HPR as well, Allen says, and if successful will spur Premier Composites to build more of these pocket maxis.

The Carkeek GP45 is designed to win under both IRC and HPR while having a higher SAD (sail area/displacement) ratio than the latest TP52s. 
CARKEEK GP45
The 47-foot Carkeek 45 is a bigger version of the South African designer's initial 40 model but at only 5,250 kilograms, displacement claims a higher SAD than the last of the TP52s, so will excel in light airs especially. Similar to the 40, the 45 is available in Race (carbon/epoxy infused) or the higher specified Grand Prix model using unidirectional carbon construction. Both come with high modulus Southern Spars carbon masts with running backstays and a bowsprit for large assymetrics. Deck gear is from Harken, including a pedestal winch. While visiting Premier Composites I looked around the latest one (destined for the USA) after a five-month build and was impressed by the high standard of CNC tooling and build quality which should ensure good weight integrity between hull numbers.

The Carkeek 40 is an inshore and offshore boat available in pre-preg and infused carbon/epoxy versions from Premier Composites in Dubai.

CARKEEK IRC 40
Carkeek IRC 40 was initially built by McConaghy, but the latest ones come from Premier Composites in Dubai. Described by Shaun Carkeek as "all-round boats, equally at home around the cans and offshore", these hot 40-footers are intended to keep the costs down but adrenalin up. Available in two carbon-built configurations (Race or the more expensive GP) prices start at $456,500 ex-factory. With Carkeek's involvement in the predominately US-based HPR committee, these boats have achieved podium finishes over there, including winning the 2012 Newport-Bermuda Race under IRC and the Onion Patch Race. Built from carbon pre-preg with Nomex core, a high-modulus two-part carbon rig and rigging holds a square-top mainsail and the whole lot fits into a 40-foot shipping container thanks to a lifting cassette keel system. Displacement is 3,850 kilograms while handicap figures are IRC TCC 1.235 (in IRC trim) and TCC 1.265 (in HPR trim).Alegre, the new mini-maxi from Mark Mills, is aiming to win the Rolex Sydney Hobart this year.

MARK MILLS 72 ALEGRE
The Mark Mills 72-footer Alegre is the first new mini-maxi in a while, and is being keenly watched in the wake of its launch from the Longitud Cero in Spain. Local big boat skippers will also be keenly watching it on the Rolex Sydney Hobart start line this year. Owner Andy Soriano is an accomplished owner-driver in the IMA Mini-Maxi fleet that formed in 2009 to encourage non-pros at the wheel. Mills said the design brief was to build a racer specifically for the weather and waters of the IMA race venues - Palma, Porto Cervo for the Maxi Worlds and the French coast.

"With a steady flow of new designs since the class took off in 2009, finding the right balance of stability, sail area, and displacement on racecourses which combine windward-leeward racing with challenging coastal legs in a range of wind speeds, has been a complex solution to find," Mills told Seahorse magazine.

Working with computational data from several big boat campaigns, including Wild Oats XI, led Mills to pen a rounded hull - instead of chines that caused drag upwind when inshore racing - that was built to the maximum size allowed for IMA. Topsides are unusual with what Mills describes as 'ramp deck', a continuous surface from cockpit floor to foredeck. On deck a T-layout for winches was chosen with a pair of primary pedestals forwards, a single mainsheet pedestal midships, and a runner pedestal aft, all interlinked and driving a rotary hydraulic pump and the underdeck spinnaker take down system using Cariboni hydraulics. The rig comes from Southern Spars, while North Sails designer Kevin George was part of the extensive design team.

The new Ker 46 is expected on the Hobart start line.

KER 46
A development of the previous 2009 Ker 46, Tonnerre that has won in Europe and America. Jason Ker's latest race boat is yet another new yacht that is expected on the Rolex Sydney Hobart start line this year. This light displacement carbon- hulled racer has been designed and optimised for IRC and ORCi racing. With an expected better SAD than sister ship the Ker 40 - which has several Rolex Sydney Hobarts under its GRP hull - the 46 is designed for a wider range of conditions. Hull shape is rounded with plenty of flat sections aft for planning quickly with slim keel shaft and optimised bulb. Deck gear is by Harken and the topsides have minimum shear with long bowsprit for large downwind sails. The highly specified carbon hull has been built to ISO Category A standards by Germanischer Lloyd at McConaghy's China yard. Last year the first Ker 46 was shipped to South Africa after a four-month build.
The Class40 are an exciting development of forty-footers that are designed to be crewed or sailed short handed.

KER CLASS 40 OD McCONAGHY
The Class40 is one of the fastest growing fleets in Europe and has spurred on development within the box rule of the class. One of the crews pushing the boundaries is Tony Lawson's Team Concise. In conjunction with Ker design and McConaghy boats they are developing the next generation Class40 capable of outperforming the newest big budget Class40s, but for a production boat price. The design concept has been refined by Jason Ker and Simon Schofield of Ker design in close association with experienced Class40 yachtsman and Team Concise project manager Ned Collier Wakefield. The first Class40 One Design arrived in the UK in mid-July with the aim of competing in the Rolex Fastnet Race, before Wakefield teams up with Sam Goodchild for the Transat Jacques Vabre, then later sailing single-handed by Wakefield in the Global Ocean Race; that calls at Auckland, should you want to check it out.

CLASS40 OD
The Class40 One Design was conceived in 2005 to promote a new breed of offshore performance monohulls designed around a simple box rule, aimed at affordability yet using the latest technology.

Exotic materials such as carbon fibre are limited to mast and booms while underwater appendages such as fixed keels are also limited. The sail wardrobe is also strictly controlled. Hull numbers this year are set to exceed 130 in a mixed fleet of crewed and shorthanded sailors. As a box rule, rather than one design, Class40 encourages development so plenty of designers are involved including Botin, Humphreys, Ker, Finot, Lomard, Farr and many others. Traditionally the Route du Rhum is the big event for the class and next year it runs the Global Race. The first Class 40 One Design from McConaghy is due to arrive for the Rolex Fastnet Race.

A new design Clipper 70 allows crew numbers to increase from 20 to 22, and there's a comprehensive galley with pipecots for off-watch crew.

CLIPPER 70
In contrast to the Volvos growing smaller, the ocean race for amateurs is building bigger boats, with the new Tony Castro-designed Clipper 70-footers replacing the previous C68s. Weighing nearly three times that of the carbon-hulled Volvos (31,700 kilograms compared to the V65's 10,750 kilograms), the Clippers come with heavier GRP hulls, an elongated fixed keel and deep rocker with a big hard chine to reduce heeling. Twin rudders are also used to give the best angle of attack when heeled over. Primarily a downwind race - as its name taken from the old Clipper ships suggests - there's a long bowsprit for flying large spinnakers. Looking very like a V70, the Clipper 70s have flat decks and a fairly shallow cockpit. Here, two pedestals and a centralised mainsheet winch does the sail handling, along with a bank of winches on the coamings. Unlike the minimalist Volvos where there's only freeze-dried food for the hardened pro sailors, the new Clippers have a sizeable galley, lounge seats and comfy pipecots (having rolled about Paul Cayard's V70 during a race and being aboard earlier Clippers, the contrast is amazing!). Clipper Ventures has again chosen a Chinese yard for the build, Nauticstar Marine in Qingdao. Also larger with these new boats is your opportunity to sail on one if you have the money as crew numbers have increased from 20 to 22. In this year's race (Clipper 13-14) there are 66 Australian crew taking part, 15 of which are female and there are two Australian skippers. Leg four of the race will see the fleet visit the west and eastern seaboards of Australia with a stop in Sydney.

HPR UPDATE FROM DOBBS DAVIS OF HPR SAILING ORG
In an HPR Committee meeting, ex-CYCA Commodore Matt Allen saw HPR as having great potential in Australia.

"I see HPR as having a great future, because the kinds of boats that it encourages matches our interests very well: fast, fun, and offshore-capable. The rule is also appealing because it is simple, transparent and fair, and the most recent generation of fast boats - like the Farr 400 and MC 38 - fit the intent of the rule very well." Allen said it may be possible also to have HPR scoring in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race at some stage.

The rule is driving towards no-compromise designs that are fast yet still offshore-capable. In Australia we see these as being like Fred Barrett's GP26 and new 35, the MC38s, Farr 400s, GP 42s, and TP 52s. McConaghy has built three Carkeek 40s (for the USA) and a new Botin 40 design (for JPN), while Hakes Marine's new J/V 42 would also fit into HPR nicely.

Another important principle is transparency: there are no secret factors, the rule is freely available on a spreadsheet posted on the HPR website, and certificates get issued by local rating offices, such as YA, much like the ORC system. In fact, ORC is a partner with US Sailing on the development and administration of this rule.

Sporting dagger boards to minimise leeway, twin rudders and canting keel, the Farr-designed fleet of Volvo 65s have a lot of proven design features from the earlier V70s.

VOLVO 65
With the emphasis on a safer and cheaper race, the organisers of the Volvo Ocean Race announced that the 2014 event would be a one-design fleet. The goal, said CEO Knut Frostad, was to significantly reduce the cost of mounting a campaign and bring the size of the fleet up to eight to ten boats for future editions. Future campaigns are expected to cost 15 million euro, rather than 30-40 million euro as in the past. The new boat has been designed by Farr Yacht Design in the United States, and is being built by a consortium of four boatyards in Europe - Green Marine in the United Kingdom, Decision in Switzerland, Persico in Italy and Multiplast in France. The boats will be launched at a rate of one every seven to eight weeks from July 2013 to July 2014. These strict one-design boats arrive with a full sail inventory, electronics and all systems. Scaling back the size has been supported by some 2014 competitors including veteran Ian Walker, as the reduced LOA could prove safer in the Southern Ocean. Less physical than the V70, more diverse crews including an all women crew are expected with numbers reduced to eight aboard. In terms of design, there's a lot of proven structures aboard - daggerboards to minimise leeway, twin rudders and canting keel - so the Farr-designed Volvo 65s have a lot of design features from the earlier V70s. Water ballast is also used for trim and the keel swings 40 degrees. An extra possible safety feature is a third transom hung rudder. For crew there's twin main hatches to go below but not much else.


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## PCP

*Racing Panorama*



Edward3 said:


> reprinted from Sails Magazine
> no pics included
> 
> Life in the fast lane
> 
> With the race boat scene enjoying a purple patch, we gather together some of the more interesting grand prix yachts doing the rounds, with several of them set to be on the start line of the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race this year, writes Kevin Green.
> 
> Images Daniel Forster / Rolex / Courtesy Beau Geste Team / McConaghy Boats / Botin Partners / Carkeek Associates / Rolex / Carlo Borlenghi / Ker Yacht Design / McConaghy / Clipper Ventures / Volvo Ocean Race 2014-2015
> 
> The demise of the MedCup circuit for theTP52 has spurred on a wave of new designs from the previously TP-engaged architects, with the forty footers and 60-70 footers particularly exciting LOAs at the moment.
> 
> New Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race hopefuls this year range in size from Tony Kirby's Ker 46 and Matt Allen's exciting new Carkeek 60 (that I enjoyed peeking at while in Dubai recently) to new maxis, so going south will be an even more exciting spectacle this year. The Hobart will also see interesting foreign entrants such as Karl Kwok's powerful new Botin 80 that Mick Cookson is feverishly busy working on in New Zealand as I write. Chatting with project manager Gavin Brady about Kwok's new Beau Geste, he said to expect some real excitement if it's a northerly wind for the Rolex Sydney Hobart. Pushing it all the way south will be the brand new mini-maxi Alegre with accomplished owner-driver Andy Soriano calling the shots. The Mark Mills design is primarily built for the smoother waters of the Mediterranean but will excel if conditions get behind her ample beam. Then there's the hot 60s, with Max Klink's Botin IRC 65 Caro sure to test Shaun Carkeek's 60, Ichi Ban. Designer Harry Dunning has also been busy with a new 60-footer that McConaghy's are keeping under wraps right now.
> 
> 40 FEET OF GRUNT
> Elsewhere in the grand prix world the magic number is forty. "It seems like every designer has a 40-footer out there," laughed Tania Cookson while I was chatting to her the other day. Head of the 40 pack is Botin Partners, the design team who dominated the last five Med Cups and have now applied their TP52 design expertise to a "no compromise" 40- foot High Performance racing yacht. The first of these new super light weight racers is under construction for an Asian owner and will rate in both HPR and IRC while also being suitable for both inshore and offshore racing.
> 
> Probably the fastest growing fleet is the Class40 with numbers that are approaching the 150-boat Farr 40 fleet. I watched some of these exciting offshore boats in Marseilles a few months ago and they appeal to my singled-handed senses; with a toughness that reminded me of the Sydney 38 but with a box rule that rewards development, most of the major designers have one on the shelf. Class40 yachts have their big race next year, the 30,000-mile round-the-world Global Ocean Race 2014-15 with single-handed, double-handed and fully-crewed (four crew) teams competing in September.
> 
> The immediate test for these tough 40s will be the the Fastnet Race on August 11 and the good news is that entries have been extended to 380 boats this year, I noted Geoff Boettcher's Secret Men's Business 3.5 RP 51 on the list, so good luck Geoff.
> 
> Adding yet further excitement and perhaps controversy is the next Volvo Ocean Race, but of course only one design office feels the thrill, Farr, who got the gig for all of these new 65-foot canting keelers, much to the chagrin of the former race-winning designer Juan Kouyoumdjian.
> 
> As the Volvos shrink, in contrast the amateurs aboard the new Clipper yachts get more room to stretch their fee-paying butts on, with the launch of the Tony Castro 70-footers, which look remarkably like the old V70s, funnily enough. There's big Australian involvement in the Clipper 2013 race with an impressive 66 Aussies taking part and plenty of women, plus two skippers (Chris Hollis and Damien Parnham). They will perhaps take inspiration from winning Gold Coast skipper Richard Hewson, who has gone on to run his own Mini-Transat campaign this year.
> 
> FINALLY, SAFETY
> Chatting to AC campaigner, match racer and offshore sailor Gavin Brady brought up the subject of safety. He reflected how two highly campaigned offshore teams found themselves in dire straits recently with George David's Rambler capsizing after losing the keel during the Fastnet Race and Carl Kwok's Farr 80 Beau Geste cracking during last year's Royal Akarana Yacht Club Auckland to Noumea race. Aboard Beau Geste Brady confessed to being very scared for his and the crew's lives. "Safety must come first, over everything else [when designing] yet both teams found themselves in life-threatening situations; the problem is that I don't think these lessons are filtering back down through our sport."
> 
> The new Beau Geste will have a lot more structure than the old boat seen here.
> 
> BOTIN 80 BEAU GESTE
> Karl Kwok is one of the most active offshore racing owners, and his team are currently in the shed with Mick Cookson building the new Botin 80 Beau Geste, a replacement for the ill-fated Farr 80 that cracked through the middle in the Pacific last year, causing even experienced skipper Gavin Brady some serious alarm, as the told me on the phone from the Cookson yard in New Zealand. "We found out the hard way that structurally she wasn't an offshore boat," he said. The rescued boat's fittings are being cannibalised for the new one, which has made the design process a lot easier, with completion expected in time for the Rolex Sydney Hobart.
> 
> The new 80-footer is a lot different to the previous Farr design, said Brady, with a lot more structure in the boat, especially in the deck and some other engineering back aft. The AC veteran believes sailors should take a more active part in the design process.
> 
> "The offshore part of our sport is where designers need to stand up and take more notice, as people's lives are at stake," he says.
> 
> "The new boat is more of a coastal boat - for the Fastnet, Rolex Sydney Hobart, Bermuda and so on, with a similar beam because with a coastal race you've got to sail to VMG, both up and downwind, so a coastal boat is more of a Mediterranean style, maxi-worlds type of boat than say a Volvo 70."
> 
> The new carbon rocketship will have similar foils to a Volvo with daggerboards and a canting keel, yet with much more emphasis on all points of sail, so there is a relatively lighter keel.
> 
> "Right now the biggest gain in our sport is leeway which you reduce with dagger boards - like the Volvos," explains Brady,
> 
> With the new designs creating so much righting moment with the chines, beam, flat bottoms and volume forward, less power is required from the keel. (Recall the Vendee Globe this year when one of the water ballasted yachts made it home without a keel).
> 
> Solving the equation of displacement versus sail area versus righting moment is the main challenge for current design, says Brady.
> 
> "With these big hull chines we're finding that these big boats just don't heel as much - about 22 degrees of heel. So you don't need bulbs as big as when we sailed the old AC boats at 33 degrees of heel."
> 
> The McConaghy- built Botin 40 is an optimised grand prix boat designed to excel in coastal racing.
> 
> BOTIN HPR40
> McConaghy Boats and Botin Partners have joined forces to launch the next generation of Grand Prix 40 racers. Moving away from the heavier IRC-oriented design, the HPR40 is optimised for the emerging race rule whilst still being competitive under IRC. Built using a female hull and deck moulds in pre-preg carbon with Nomex core - just like the TP52s - which minimises weight, the first of these boats has just gone to Japan. The deck layout includes a pedestal connected to the primaries, unusual for this size of race boat and there's a retractable drive arm to minimise drag.
> 
> The result is very high sail area to displacement and sail area to wetted area ratios, ensuring fast and exciting sailing, with an IRC 2012 TCC = 1.258.
> 
> Harken winches and deck hardware are complemented by a clean and simple deck layout, designed for efficient handling by the crew. To keep windage low all the lines run underneath the deck, while deck cavities are minimised to improve the water-tightness and weight reduction on the race course. A high modulus Hall Spar HPR optimised rig is standard.
> 
> The Botin Class40 Custom has been designed to regain the world championship for Gonzalo Botin.
> 
> BOTIN CUSTOM CLASS40
> Former world Class40 champion Gonzalo Botin is building this highly customised version, within the Class40 box rule, at Spanish builder Longitud Cero. The strongly supported Class40 has its Global Race (circumnavigation) next year and these boats also do shorthanded transatlantics, so the design has to be strong with plenty of righting moment while also minimising drag. Mods include a highly optimised keel bulb to achieve just that. The boat is designed to be a good all-round performer in varying offshore conditions, and the hull is designed to reflect this. The hull has a full bow with chines running most of the waterline and the rig is far aft to allow for larger headsails to maximise off-wind performance.
> 
> Destined for Hobart this year, the Botin IRC65 Caro.
> 
> BOTIN 65 GENTLEMAN RACER
> This 65-foot advanced German-built design, named Caro, from the pen of Botin just launched and is destined to compete in many international events, including this year's Rolex Sydney Hobart. The owner of this racer-cruiser, Max Klink, wants to race with friends as well as top sailors, so automated and electrical systems are a major part of the Spanish design house's brief. The powerful hull has plenty of form stability, a lifting keel to reduce the enormous 4.8-metre draft and twin rudders for managing the ample beam. A righting moment of 15 per cent has been quoted. Sails are understood to be from Doyle's in New Zealand and the professionals on board come from the same. Caro's crew for Cowes Week includes Volvo ocean veterans Stuart Bannatyne, Tom Addis, Michi Müller, Richard Bouzaid and Mark Bartlett along with owner Klink. A few days after Cowes the real test will come with the Fastnet Rock in Ireland.
> 
> Derived from the successful TP52s, the Carkeek 60 is designed for offshore, especially when the name reads Ichi Ban.
> 
> CARKEEK 60
> Shaun Carkeek is aiming to replicate his design success in the TP52 circuit with this new commission from Sydney's Matt Allen. The Hobart veteran expects builders, Dubai's Premier Composites, to have his new boat ready just in time for the great race south. The new boat has a rounded hull shape derived from TP52s such as Hooligan and Team New Zealand, so this new 60 comes from the same family but the extra length should allow him to sail away from the TPs, especially upwind. Allen chose 60 feet as the optimum size because of his predominant passion, offshore racing, and the average wave patterns he would encounter on the 628-nautical-mile Rolex Sydney Hobart.
> 
> "Off the wind I'd hope to be faster than the V70 but we have to make sure there's enough righting moment to offset the fact that it's not a canting keel boat," said Allen.
> 
> So crew weight will be crucial to the new boat with 17 anticipated on the rail for this year's Rolex Sydney Hobart. Many of the crew come from the retired Loki campaign and will include sailing master Gordon Maguire while Volvo sailor Will Oxley will navigate. The 10.5-tonne hull is being built using unidirectional carbon pre-preg and honeycomb sandwich core materials laid in female moulds. The project is being managed by former Camper project manager Neil Cox. Cox is overseeing the six-month build with delivery expected in November to Sydney where the Southern Spars rig will be installed. Spars are the latest TPT (thin ply technology), lighter and stiffer than previous carbon masts. Final commissioning will also be done by Central Coast Hydraulics - hydraulic power will be used for winches so the engine will be on all the time. For smarts, B&G gear from Guy Oliver at Olectric is being installed. The new Ichi Ban is designed to win primarily under IRC but should be competitive under HPR as well, Allen says, and if successful will spur Premier Composites to build more of these pocket maxis.
> 
> The Carkeek GP45 is designed to win under both IRC and HPR while having a higher SAD (sail area/displacement) ratio than the latest TP52s.
> CARKEEK GP45
> The 47-foot Carkeek 45 is a bigger version of the South African designer's initial 40 model but at only 5,250 kilograms, displacement claims a higher SAD than the last of the TP52s, so will excel in light airs especially. Similar to the 40, the 45 is available in Race (carbon/epoxy infused) or the higher specified Grand Prix model using unidirectional carbon construction. Both come with high modulus Southern Spars carbon masts with running backstays and a bowsprit for large assymetrics. Deck gear is from Harken, including a pedestal winch. While visiting Premier Composites I looked around the latest one (destined for the USA) after a five-month build and was impressed by the high standard of CNC tooling and build quality which should ensure good weight integrity between hull numbers.
> 
> The Carkeek 40 is an inshore and offshore boat available in pre-preg and infused carbon/epoxy versions from Premier Composites in Dubai.
> 
> CARKEEK IRC 40
> Carkeek IRC 40 was initially built by McConaghy, but the latest ones come from Premier Composites in Dubai. Described by Shaun Carkeek as "all-round boats, equally at home around the cans and offshore", these hot 40-footers are intended to keep the costs down but adrenalin up. Available in two carbon-built configurations (Race or the more expensive GP) prices start at $456,500 ex-factory. With Carkeek's involvement in the predominately US-based HPR committee, these boats have achieved podium finishes over there, including winning the 2012 Newport-Bermuda Race under IRC and the Onion Patch Race. Built from carbon pre-preg with Nomex core, a high-modulus two-part carbon rig and rigging holds a square-top mainsail and the whole lot fits into a 40-foot shipping container thanks to a lifting cassette keel system. Displacement is 3,850 kilograms while handicap figures are IRC TCC 1.235 (in IRC trim) and TCC 1.265 (in HPR trim).Alegre, the new mini-maxi from Mark Mills, is aiming to win the Rolex Sydney Hobart this year.
> 
> MARK MILLS 72 ALEGRE
> The Mark Mills 72-footer Alegre is the first new mini-maxi in a while, and is being keenly watched in the wake of its launch from the Longitud Cero in Spain. Local big boat skippers will also be keenly watching it on the Rolex Sydney Hobart start line this year. Owner Andy Soriano is an accomplished owner-driver in the IMA Mini-Maxi fleet that formed in 2009 to encourage non-pros at the wheel. Mills said the design brief was to build a racer specifically for the weather and waters of the IMA race venues - Palma, Porto Cervo for the Maxi Worlds and the French coast.
> 
> "With a steady flow of new designs since the class took off in 2009, finding the right balance of stability, sail area, and displacement on racecourses which combine windward-leeward racing with challenging coastal legs in a range of wind speeds, has been a complex solution to find," Mills told Seahorse magazine.
> 
> Working with computational data from several big boat campaigns, including Wild Oats XI, led Mills to pen a rounded hull - instead of chines that caused drag upwind when inshore racing - that was built to the maximum size allowed for IMA. Topsides are unusual with what Mills describes as 'ramp deck', a continuous surface from cockpit floor to foredeck. On deck a T-layout for winches was chosen with a pair of primary pedestals forwards, a single mainsheet pedestal midships, and a runner pedestal aft, all interlinked and driving a rotary hydraulic pump and the underdeck spinnaker take down system using Cariboni hydraulics. The rig comes from Southern Spars, while North Sails designer Kevin George was part of the extensive design team.
> 
> The new Ker 46 is expected on the Hobart start line.
> 
> KER 46
> A development of the previous 2009 Ker 46, Tonnerre that has won in Europe and America. Jason Ker's latest race boat is yet another new yacht that is expected on the Rolex Sydney Hobart start line this year. This light displacement carbon- hulled racer has been designed and optimised for IRC and ORCi racing. With an expected better SAD than sister ship the Ker 40 - which has several Rolex Sydney Hobarts under its GRP hull - the 46 is designed for a wider range of conditions. Hull shape is rounded with plenty of flat sections aft for planning quickly with slim keel shaft and optimised bulb. Deck gear is by Harken and the topsides have minimum shear with long bowsprit for large downwind sails. The highly specified carbon hull has been built to ISO Category A standards by Germanischer Lloyd at McConaghy's China yard. Last year the first Ker 46 was shipped to South Africa after a four-month build.
> The Class40 are an exciting development of forty-footers that are designed to be crewed or sailed short handed.
> 
> KER CLASS 40 OD McCONAGHY
> The Class40 is one of the fastest growing fleets in Europe and has spurred on development within the box rule of the class. One of the crews pushing the boundaries is Tony Lawson's Team Concise. In conjunction with Ker design and McConaghy boats they are developing the next generation Class40 capable of outperforming the newest big budget Class40s, but for a production boat price. The design concept has been refined by Jason Ker and Simon Schofield of Ker design in close association with experienced Class40 yachtsman and Team Concise project manager Ned Collier Wakefield. The first Class40 One Design arrived in the UK in mid-July with the aim of competing in the Rolex Fastnet Race, before Wakefield teams up with Sam Goodchild for the Transat Jacques Vabre, then later sailing single-handed by Wakefield in the Global Ocean Race; that calls at Auckland, should you want to check it out.
> 
> CLASS40 OD
> The Class40 One Design was conceived in 2005 to promote a new breed of offshore performance monohulls designed around a simple box rule, aimed at affordability yet using the latest technology.
> 
> Exotic materials such as carbon fibre are limited to mast and booms while underwater appendages such as fixed keels are also limited. The sail wardrobe is also strictly controlled. Hull numbers this year are set to exceed 130 in a mixed fleet of crewed and shorthanded sailors. As a box rule, rather than one design, Class40 encourages development so plenty of designers are involved including Botin, Humphreys, Ker, Finot, Lomard, Farr and many others. Traditionally the Route du Rhum is the big event for the class and next year it runs the Global Race. The first Class 40 One Design from McConaghy is due to arrive for the Rolex Fastnet Race.
> 
> A new design Clipper 70 allows crew numbers to increase from 20 to 22, and there's a comprehensive galley with pipecots for off-watch crew.
> 
> CLIPPER 70
> In contrast to the Volvos growing smaller, the ocean race for amateurs is building bigger boats, with the new Tony Castro-designed Clipper 70-footers replacing the previous C68s. Weighing nearly three times that of the carbon-hulled Volvos (31,700 kilograms compared to the V65's 10,750 kilograms), the Clippers come with heavier GRP hulls, an elongated fixed keel and deep rocker with a big hard chine to reduce heeling. Twin rudders are also used to give the best angle of attack when heeled over. Primarily a downwind race - as its name taken from the old Clipper ships suggests - there's a long bowsprit for flying large spinnakers. Looking very like a V70, the Clipper 70s have flat decks and a fairly shallow cockpit. Here, two pedestals and a centralised mainsheet winch does the sail handling, along with a bank of winches on the coamings. Unlike the minimalist Volvos where there's only freeze-dried food for the hardened pro sailors, the new Clippers have a sizeable galley, lounge seats and comfy pipecots (having rolled about Paul Cayard's V70 during a race and being aboard earlier Clippers, the contrast is amazing!). Clipper Ventures has again chosen a Chinese yard for the build, Nauticstar Marine in Qingdao. Also larger with these new boats is your opportunity to sail on one if you have the money as crew numbers have increased from 20 to 22. In this year's race (Clipper 13-14) there are 66 Australian crew taking part, 15 of which are female and there are two Australian skippers. Leg four of the race will see the fleet visit the west and eastern seaboards of Australia with a stop in Sydney.
> 
> HPR UPDATE FROM DOBBS DAVIS OF HPR SAILING ORG
> In an HPR Committee meeting, ex-CYCA Commodore Matt Allen saw HPR as having great potential in Australia.
> 
> "I see HPR as having a great future, because the kinds of boats that it encourages matches our interests very well: fast, fun, and offshore-capable. The rule is also appealing because it is simple, transparent and fair, and the most recent generation of fast boats - like the Farr 400 and MC 38 - fit the intent of the rule very well." Allen said it may be possible also to have HPR scoring in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race at some stage.
> 
> The rule is driving towards no-compromise designs that are fast yet still offshore-capable. In Australia we see these as being like Fred Barrett's GP26 and new 35, the MC38s, Farr 400s, GP 42s, and TP 52s. McConaghy has built three Carkeek 40s (for the USA) and a new Botin 40 design (for JPN), while Hakes Marine's new J/V 42 would also fit into HPR nicely.
> 
> Another important principle is transparency: there are no secret factors, the rule is freely available on a spreadsheet posted on the HPR website, and certificates get issued by local rating offices, such as YA, much like the ORC system. In fact, ORC is a partner with US Sailing on the development and administration of this rule.
> 
> Sporting dagger boards to minimise leeway, twin rudders and canting keel, the Farr-designed fleet of Volvo 65s have a lot of proven design features from the earlier V70s.
> 
> VOLVO 65
> With the emphasis on a safer and cheaper race, the organisers of the Volvo Ocean Race announced that the 2014 event would be a one-design fleet. The goal, said CEO Knut Frostad, was to significantly reduce the cost of mounting a campaign and bring the size of the fleet up to eight to ten boats for future editions. Future campaigns are expected to cost 15 million euro, rather than 30-40 million euro as in the past. The new boat has been designed by Farr Yacht Design in the United States, and is being built by a consortium of four boatyards in Europe - Green Marine in the United Kingdom, Decision in Switzerland, Persico in Italy and Multiplast in France. The boats will be launched at a rate of one every seven to eight weeks from July 2013 to July 2014. These strict one-design boats arrive with a full sail inventory, electronics and all systems. Scaling back the size has been supported by some 2014 competitors including veteran Ian Walker, as the reduced LOA could prove safer in the Southern Ocean. Less physical than the V70, more diverse crews including an all women crew are expected with numbers reduced to eight aboard. In terms of design, there's a lot of proven structures aboard - daggerboards to minimise leeway, twin rudders and canting keel - so the Farr-designed Volvo 65s have a lot of design features from the earlier V70s. Water ballast is also used for trim and the keel swings 40 degrees. An extra possible safety feature is a third transom hung rudder. For crew there's twin main hatches to go below but not much else.


Nice revue.

For the panorama to be complete we should also talk about the laboratory that is the mini class and about the new Figaro that should come soon (i hope).

Also about the Wallycento that had beaten some of the refereed top dogs and most of all about Esimit Europe, the old Alfa Romeu II, designed by "Reichel/Pugh in 2008, modified with a canting keel and certainly more upgrades. The boat has won practically all races that has made since the modifications. Sure it is an old design but it comes a bit against the current showing that a narrow boat (with half of its weight on the keel) can be and is a winner. I bet that some of the new maxi to appear on the race scene will be more narrow than the actual new boats, at least the ones that are not meant to race transats.

Sail-World.com : Cowes Week - Esimit Europa 2 set to compete in IRC Big Boats class

But the biggest hole on that article is the complete lack of reference to the fastest sailboats, the multihulls that have been on the rise with many new boats and some top monohull skippers passing to the multihulls. A very conservative look in what regards fast sailing I would say as conservative as Sydney-Hobart race direction with their stubbornness in excluding multihulls. They exist, they sail, they are faster but they pretend they don't exist.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Ratings and boat speeds*



olianta said:


> PCP said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. And the rating, isn't it based on past performance in races? I hope that I would have the chance someday "to meet" an Oceanis 38 somewhere in the Med and to check our performance in the same conditions.
> 
> Rumen
> 
> 
> 
> No, the rating is attributed measuring the boat dimensions and trough a computer program that predicts the performance. Sometimes the RM is also measured (in some systems) to give a more accurate prediction. Those results can be corrected by the results in races but the alterations are minimal.
> 
> Through a very sophisticated program the prediction speeds are very accurate. The boat designer through the computer programs that use to design the boat is also able to make very accurate predictions about the boat speed.
> 
> You can ask to the Luffe shipyard a Polar speed of the boat and we can compare those predicted speeds with the predicted speeds of other cruising boats.
> 
> Regarding the Luffe 37 its Swedish rating (LYS) is 1.23. a Hanse 375 has 1.26, a Salona 37 1.30 a Grand Soleil 37 has 1.29, a Hanse 355 has 1.23, Salona 38 has 1.32, a Elan 310 has 1.22 a Arcona 340 has 1.30.
> 
> The bigger the number the faster the boat. The Luffe 37 was a very fast boat when in was designed (the hull) in the late 70's. Now a mass market good 35ft/36ft is faster.
> 
> I am quite sure that the Oceanis 38 will be faster and will have a ratting higher than the one of a Hanse 355.
> 
> Speed is not everything in a boat and Luffe are great boats with high quality building and interior. I am sure the Luffe 37.09 is a very agreeable boat to sail and a very nice classic Yacht but if you are buying it because it is a performance fast 37ft cruising boat...then you are wrong.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo
Click to expand...


----------



## PCP

*Mylius 18e35*

Mylius has a new boat, a 60fter.

Beautiful and very fast as all the Mylius.


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

*Re: Bob Perry 41ft Schooner*



PCP said:


>


Beautiful boat!

This looks like my kind of style.  Nicer lines than I've seen on a lot of newer boats lately.

I would love to see interior pics if any are available.


----------



## Faster

PCP said:


> Bob you are the first designer that had thank me to put a boat here. ...., the post looks good because the boat looks good and that's your merit not mine.....


Yes, a beautiful boat but even more so _*exquisite*_ drawings.. If I ever had the fortune to be able to be one of Bob's clients, drawings like that would be framed and prominent on my walls...


----------



## bobperry

Faster:
It's easier than that.
If you send me a pm with your email address I'll email you .dwg files for those drawings and you can go get them printed yourself. I will not do that for everyone but you have been supportive in the past.

Many thanks for the kind words. I do take pride in what I produce.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Bob Perry 41ft Schooner*



Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> Beautiful boat!
> 
> This looks like my kind of style.  Nicer lines than I've seen on a lot of newer boats lately.
> 
> I would love to see interior pics if any are available.


Here:

Finished Interior

The interior is as nice as the exterior. I wonder how much that boat would have costed: The owner said that it was meant to be built in one year and it took two.

Well, nice exclusive high quality boats doesn't come cheap, but some are not cheap and are ugly Not this one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I don't recall the finished cost of JAKATAN but it was an expensive boat. What can happen with a project like this in a very good yard is that the quality level can get "elevated" to the point where every detail is a work of art. With JAKATAN's build the client was very appreciative of the yard's efforts with quality and wanted that level maintained through all aspects of the project.


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 410 GL*

Another great Felci design. I find this boat even more well design than the big ones. it is easy to make a very nice looking 50ft bur not so easy to make the same with a 41ft specially if the boat has a good standing height and a great cruising interior:













I guess that I can save on words, this boat test (English) says a lot about the boat. I would say this one would be on my very short list if I wanted to buy a new mass market 40/41 cruiser. Well I would have preferred a performance cruiser but the interior would not be as big or good in what regards cruising and the performances of the 410 even if not comparable to a true performance cruiser are not that far, specially in what regards cruising. A great and beautiful boat, not to mention the incredibly good wine storage










Some more tests in French and Dutch:











*A 360º look at the interior:*

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/dufour410_.swf


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

*Re: Bob Perry 41ft Schooner*



PCP said:


> Here:
> 
> Finished Interior
> 
> The interior is as nice as the exterior. I wonder how much that boat would have costed: The owner said that it was meant to be built in one year and it took two.
> 
> Well, nice exclusive high quality boats doesn't come cheap, but some are not cheap and are ugly Not this one.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Wow! She's beautiful boat.

Looks like something I would consider IF I were to ever get a bigger boat. But I think I'll keep looking at older boats like Hans Christian or Cape George.

I can see a lot of work went into that boat. Much better looking to me than the production boats out there.


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 41*

After the Dufour 410 I feel a bit bad in posting about the Bavaria 40. The difference in looks however does not correspond to a difference in solidity or quality and the truth is that the Bavaria interior is functional and better than on the previous model that shared the same Farr hull. The boat sails well and it is the only family cruiser that offers 4 winches on the cockpit (six on the total) and that certainly makes sailing easier especially if one uses a Genoa instead of a self taking jib. We have also to consider that the Bavaria is a lot cheaper than the Dufour and probably will go better upwind.



They say very well about the boat on the Yacht.de boat test, namely that the 41 is a 40 "masterfully developed".

Year the *test video*, a nice one:

Bavaria Cruiser 41 - meisterhaft weiterentwickelt - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

another one, with the also new 37:


----------



## olianta

*Re: Ratings and boat speeds*



PCP said:


> olianta said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure the Luffe 37.09 is a very agreeable boat to sail and a very nice classic Yacht but if you are buying it because it is a performance fast 37ft cruising boat...then you are wrong.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Paulo, then how would you comment the results of Luffe 37 in the Fyncup results of 2013?
> 
> Sailwave results for Palby Fyn Cup 2013 at 31 maj - 2 juni - 2013 2013
> 
> Rumen
Click to expand...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Ratings and boat speeds*



olianta said:


> PCP said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Paulo, then how would you comment the results of Luffe 37 in the Fyncup results of 2013?
> 
> Sailwave results for Palby Fyn Cup 2013 at 31 maj - 2 juni - 2013 2013
> 
> Rumen
> 
> 
> 
> Rumen I want to repost what I have already posted regarding you and the boat you have choose taking the occasion to congratulate you again for the choice of a very beautiful and well made classic boat:
> 
> *" If (Rumen) had choose that boat after sailing that boat 37.09 and the 3.6 for sure that for him the 37.09 is the boat he wants regarding how the boat sails, feels, looks and the type of interior."
> *
> I like a lot of boats, also classic ones and I don't defend a single choice for any sailor, quite the opposite.
> 
> We are only talking about boat speed and performance in what regards the Luffe 37 and other 37/38 ft cruisers and it is regarding that I say that The Luffe 37 is not a fast boat if compared with a 37/38 performance cruiser. He was one of the fastest when it was designed but that was more than 30 years ago.
> 
> Regarding the results of that race the good classification of the Luffe 37 on compensated means only that it was very well sailed, very close to its rating but that is only in compensated time. For evaluate the real boat sailing performance (and not the performance of the crew) you have to look at the real time, the time the boat had actually took to reach the finish line:
> 
> Regarding that the Luffe 37 took 29 hours and 1min.
> 
> A XP 38 took 20h 043m a less well sailed and smaller XP33 took 28h 32m. There were several 33/34 performance cruisers that had made about the same time of that Luffe 37 even if none of them was so well sailed (close to the rating) as that Luffe 37.
> 
> There was more three Luffe 37 on that race not as well sailed. One made 30h 53m and the other 30h 56m, other 41h 24m.
> 
> That does not mean that I do consider modern Luffe slow boats, quite the contrary. On that race the Luffe 45, a recent design, made a fantastic race with 22h 8m, way faster than the two fastest XP44, faster than a Farr 40 and a Ker 11.3 (and the Ker won the race on compensated) only beaten in what regards to performance cruisers by a Swann 45 ( only by 3 min) and by a bigger XP50.
> 
> The Luffe showed one more time why they call them X killer
> 
> http://www.bs-sejlerskolen.dk/fyncup/results/fyncup-2013-Overaltresultater.htm
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo
Click to expand...


----------



## PCP

*Racing: Coastal Classic 2013*

The NZ classic, not so spectacular as last year but certainly a great race.

The first boat to arrive was Australia, that ex-ORMA that had beaten recently the record time between Sydney and Auckland.

Some images but the best are from the teaser with last year's race images


----------



## bjung

*Re: Dufour 410 GL*



PCP said:


> Another great Felci design. I find this boat even more well design than the big ones. it is easy to make a very nice looking 50ft bur not so easy to make the same with a 41ft specially if the boat has a good standing height and a great cruising interior:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that I can save on words, this boat test (English) says a lot about the boat. I would say this one would be on my very short list if I wanted to buy a new mass market 40/41 cruiser. Well I would have preferred a performance cruiser but the interior would not be as big or good in what regards cruising and the performances of the 410 even if not comparable to a true performance cruiser are not that far, specially in what regards cruising. A great and beautiful boat, not to mention the incredibly good wine storage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some more tests in French and Dutch:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A 360º look at the interior:*
> 
> http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/dufour410_.swf


I agree, the pictures show a high quality interior. We stepped aboard the 410 in Annapolis, and were quite disappointed. The interior quality we saw, was quite possibly the worst of the production boats. Ventilation was minimal with one hatch in the saloon. Not at all what I have seen in the past by Dufour.
A lot of nice features, and obviously a nice sailing boat, but the interior quality eliminated the boat from our wishlist. 
We got on a Vision 42 afterwards, and noticed better interior quality.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Dufour 410 GL*



bjung said:


> I agree, the pictures show a high quality interior. We stepped aboard the 410 in Annapolis, and were quite disappointed. The interior quality we saw, was quite possibly the worst of the production boats. Ventilation was minimal with one hatch in the saloon. Not at all what I have seen in the past by Dufour.
> A lot of nice features, and obviously a nice sailing boat, but the interior quality eliminated the boat from our wishlist.
> We got on a Vision 42 afterwards, and noticed better interior quality.


It is possible. That's stupid but some boats are finished in a hurry to be ready for a boat show...and they show it. I have seen that with Salonas, Elans and other boats. Possibly the case. I agree the the Vision series have a good quality interior. As you say that kind of bad finish is not typical from Dufour that is slightly more expensive than other family production boats and the quality is at least similar if not superior.

Even so it seems that regarding the boat you have seen on the boat show your opinion is not shared by all:



benesailor said:


> Went both thursday and friday.
> ....
> My favorite of the production boats was the Dufour 41. Well built and great layout with ONE head. I thinks it's a waste to have two heads on a 40 foot boat. Especially for a couple. It had great storage above and below. Good rigging, solid. No wood in deck. ..


Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Xp 38*

A nice new video with this fast performance cruiser...and a great older one:






*Movie:*:

XP-38: Schnörkellos schnell segeln - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


----------



## PCP

*Halberg Rassy MKIII*

The boat is being presented on the Hamburg boat show and it has a relativelly old hull...so why is it interesting?

very few modern boats come to a 3 version using of the same hull so something has to be very right about this boat that makes it a favorite for many.

This has something to do with it:



Yes that is pretty amazing on a 43 sailboat and the boat does not look that bad or that heavy:







and in fact it is not heavy for this type of boat. For instance, it is lighter than that 40ft Bob Perry sailboat that I posted recently and it has a bigger sail area so it is not slow, I would say a good sailing boat for a family cruiser. All this put together more the 4.5T of ballast make this a very good offshore boat.

Some would even love the skeg on the rudder that has already disappeared on more recent models.

A Germán Frers design that time proved to be a great one.

http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/yachts/center-cockpit-boats/43-mk-iii/


----------



## APP Mode

I like the nav station in the same corridor of the owners suite. 

My question is how is about the kitchen? Is it suitable and safe in bad weather? HR has on other models, that the kitchen is placed, along that corridor, wich in my opinion seams smarter for those conditions . What is your opinion?


----------



## PCP

*Halberg Rassy MKIII and Najad 411*



APP Mode said:


> I like the nav station in the same corridor of the owners suite.
> 
> My question is how is about the kitchen? Is it suitable and safe in bad weather? HR has on other models, that the kitchen is placed, along that corridor, wich in my opinion seams smarter for those conditions . What is your opinion?


Yes I agree with you. having a bench on a corridor provides always support when the boat is heeled on the wrong position but HR uses not them at least now and on the smaller yachts. On the bigger ones (over 55ft) it is even better than that because it is a narrow space with 2 benches on on each side.

The ones that use that kind of galley in smaller boats is Najad and their 411 has one of the best interiors on a 41ft, in what regards saloon space, Galley space and functionality. Have a look:

Najad 410 virtual tour



The HR 43 MkIII uses a different galley but also a good one even at sea:



Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Classic beauties going fast - movie*


----------



## PCP

*Racing: Transat Jacques Fabre*

A big one that risks to leave before the mini Transat:





Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 - 20ème anniversaire _by TransatJacquesVabre_

*"A double handed race combines the skills of both sailors to ensure the boats are pushed closer to 100% of their potential. Of course there is double the manpower for manoeuvres, two brains are better than one when it comes to developing strategy and there is always someone on standby. Two handed also means that everything is shared, the moments of doubt and the pleasure, the hard times and the good times. And it is usually a subtle formula which is the winning one, combining intense sailing performance with the ability to get on well living together in difficult, stressful conditions in a small space."*

44 teams racing. It does not seem much but they are all sailing in top racing boats and are the best short crew/solo sailors around...they are almost all there.

*"The race starts on Sunday November 3rd under Le Havre's famous cliffs of Saint Adresse when all the classes race a coastal course to Etretat. From there the course which is set takes them direct non stop to Brazil. The Monohulls, that is 26 Class 40's and 10 IMOCA's, programme in their course direct for the finish line, whilst the six Multi50's and three MOD70's return temporarily to the Basin Paul Vatine to await their starts on November 5th and 8th respectively for the same 5,400 miles course...

Among the most successful skippers to take on this edition is is Jean -Pierre Dick who has won the IMOCA monohull division a remarkable three times, in 2003-2005 and 2011. He pairs up with the equally redoubtable Roland Jourdain who has won twice, in 1995 and 2001, but this time they will race a multihull, the MOD70 Virbac-Paprec 70.

But the entire field is richly laden with talent, including Vendée Globe winners François Gabart ,Michel Desjoyeaux and Vincent Riou as well as top contenders like Jean Le Cam, Bernard Stamm, Jérémie Beyou , Marc Guillemot, Bertrand de Broc, Arnaud Boissiere, Tanguy de Lamotte , Louis Burton, Alexandro di Benedetto , as well as four veterans of the Volvo Ocean Race, Sidney Gavignet , Damian Foxall , Sébastien Josse and Charles Caudrelier all racing in the MOD70. There are multihull specialists such Yves Le Blévec in the Multi 50 with Kito de Pavant, Erwan Le Roux racing with the winner of the Solitaire du Figaro Yann Elies, Loïc Fequet, Gilles Lamiré or Lalou Roucayrol ...

Class40 is the biggest and most international, with top French names like Halvard Mabire, Bruno Jourdren, Damien Seguin , Yannick Bestaven , Jean -Christophe Caso , Sébastien Rogues racing with or against sailors from Spain (Alex Pella), Germany (Jörg Riechers), Austria (Petter Christof), Great
Britain (Brian Thompson , Sam Goodchild , Hannah Jenner , Miranda Merron ... ), Italy and Belgium....."*

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 : Le Havre - Itajai | Novembre 2013 | Take to the seas and act for the planet

It seems very interesting to me

The boats are already there and they look great:





Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 - Le Havre accueille... _by TransatJacquesVabre_


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## bjung

*Re: Dufour 410 GL*



PCP said:


> Even so it seems that regarding the boat you have seen on the boat show your opinion is not shared by all:
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Maybe reviewers should also state the amount of visits to Pussers for Level 3 Painkillers. In the afternoon, I thought boats were a lot nicer as well....


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## PCP

*Re: Dufour 410 GL / Middle of the sea race - movie*



bjung said:


> Maybe reviewers should also state the amount of visits to Pussers for Level 3 Painkillers. In the afternoon, I thought boats were a lot nicer as well....


I don't understand what you mean. I like going to boat shows and if I am getting tired to see boats I just go away and come back in another day. That's what that poster probably does also since he went two times to that boat show.

Well, forget about that, people like different boats for different reasons, just look at this movie about the Start of the Middle of the sea race. It is not the race in itself that is more interesting but the superb movie quality, the boats, the city walls (Malta): beauty to my eyes






Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Neel 45 trimaran*

I took a lot of time to post about this one and I don't know if I have posted about the big brother, the 50ft that it is on the market for some years now. The problem (for me) is that I find this a very ugly boat even if I had to admit that it makes sense as a more valid sailing alternative to the condo type cats like Lagoon (that I also find ugly).











They say that the boat is two times faster than a 45ft monohull and 1.5 times than a similar sized cat.

First and only time I meat one on the water was in Croatia, a 50 ft, three years ago. I was sailing a fast 41ft monohull (Salona 41) and could compare the performances in light wind (5 to 7K) and can say that the Salona was way faster and pointed much better.

If we look at a Salona 41 Polar speed and compare it with the one of the 45, it shows that it will be faster too, at least with light and medium wind: The Salona is faster till 10K of wind and only with 15K we can see that the Neel 45 is faster doing at his best angle 10k while the Salona make about 9.5K. But even with that wind sped the Salona is faster at 45º and much faster more closer to the wind.



That's not bad for a boat with such a large cruising interior but then the Neel has 45ft and the Salona has 41ft. Two times faster than a cruising monohull? I don't think so at least if it is not a really old and heavy one.

Anyway, on the trade winds where the winds tend to be medium to strong and downwind the Neel 45 should be very fast and safe. A very good voyage fast boat if the voyage, as usual, is made along the trade winds.






Neel 45 Boat Review | Cruising World






Anyway an interesting and innovative design by Joubert-Nivelt giving consistency to an idea of Eric Bruneel (the builder) and under his general guidance.


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## PCP

*On stability: waves - interesting movie.*

Look at mim 8.06 to something I had said already here: Modern light boats with narrow fin keels or a foil with a torpedo with a good stability when hit sideways by a breaking wave are able to dissipate a substantial part of the wave energy transforming that in a sideaway movement.

An heavy full keeler would not be able to do that, it would trip on the keel and would transform almost all the wave energy in a rotating movement.

A centerboarder (with the board up) with a good stability would be able to dissipate even more energy that way, sliding even more sideways.






Regarding the use of sail to stabilize the boat in waves look at the small boat that enters at min 5.18. Coming downwind under full main maintaining the center of effort of the sail near the center of the boat, keeps the boat straight till turning sharply to the wind at the entrance and motors in with the sail on the wind. Nice and clean


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## PCP

*Comet 41s MkII - movie*

I had already talked here about this new version with two wheels an integrated table in the cockpit and an integrated bowsprit. The boat on the video was side by side with mine in Fumicino and I had already posted some photos of it. It has also a torpedo keel and that allows it to have less 100kg of ballast and less drag.

The interior has no alterations.


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## Quinn99

woot


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## bjung

*Re: Painkiller*



PCP said:


> I don't understand what you mean.


Humour Paulo, just humour. Is there a portuguese word for that?
Pusser's: Dockside Bar in Annapolis, adjacent to Boat Show
Painkiller: 2 oz Pusser's® dark rum
1 oz cream of coconut
4 oz pineapple juice
1 oz orange juice
Shake or stir ingredients, and pour over ice in a tall glass. Sprinkle nutmeg on top, and serve,
Level 3: triple rum

Excellent drink, by the way....


----------



## robelz

*Re: Painkiller*



bjung said:


> Humour Paulo, just humour. Is there a portuguese word for that?
> Pusser's: Dockside Bar in Annapolis, adjacent to Boat Show
> Painkiller: 2 oz Pusser's® dark rum
> 1 oz cream of coconut
> 4 oz pineapple juice
> 1 oz orange juice
> Shake or stir ingredients, and pour over ice in a tall glass. Sprinkle nutmeg on top, and serve,
> Level 3: triple rum
> 
> Excellent drink, by the way....


Lots of insider information to understand this one. Thanks for the enlightenment...


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Painkiller*



robelz said:


> Lots of insider information to understand this one. Thanks for the enlightenment...


The Pusser's distributor from Key Largo showed up at the San Francisco YC in his touring van, several weeks ago, for the Melges 24 Worlds. He camped out next to the Coral Reef Sailing Gear tent and discretely served up all levels of Painkillers to interested parties. Needless to say, I was quite interested. 

Turns out we'd met him in Key Largo at a Melges 24 regatta in 2007. Somehow those memories were rather fuzzy.

A comparable libation, which seems to be popular in New England, and which I first encountered at Block Island Race Week in 2011, is the Frozen Mudslide.

Frozen Mudslide Recipe - Allrecipes.com

Needless to say, this is a summer beverage, not suitable for winter consumption (particularly after a day of Laser frostbiting).

It's interesting how different drinks are associated with yacht racing. In San Francisco, SFYC is noted for its lethal Mai-Tai, while the St. Francis YC is celebrated for its Dark-and-Stormy (though I sailed with one skipper who liked to buy the crew a Ramos Fizz at St. Francis YC before heading out on the water to race). Needless to say, Mt. Gay Rum shows up at most regattas, and Mt. Gay-and-tonic (w/ lime) is my preferred regatta drink. I've paid for all those red caps many times over.


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Archambault 35*

I haven't been posting much lately as I've been on the road doing some racing. While I was in SF at the Melges 24 Worlds, I had the opportunity to meet the owner of a fairly new Archambault 35. He graciously invited me aboard and gave me the grand tour of his lovely boat, as well as the complete history.

The boat competed in the TransQuadra race, and was then put up for sale in Martinique upon arrival. The current owner flew down with two friends, bought the boat, then sailed it to Florida. It was then trucked across the U.S. to San Francisco and recommissioned.

Unfortunately, during the Richmond YC "Great Pumpkin Regatta", in October 2012, the boat was hit amidships by a Sydney 36 and suffered considerable structural damage. However, after consulting Jim Antrim and the KKMI boat yard, the decision was made to repair the boat, and the insurance company went along with it.

I can tell you, from first hand viewing, that the boat is immaculate. The only way you can tell that any repair work has been done is by the fact that the quality of the repair in several areas is better than the original factory finish in the same area on the other side of the boat. 

And as to whether or not the boat's performance was affected, it won its class in the 2013 Rolex St. Francis YC Big Boat Regatta, sailed in typical SF Bay breezy conditions. So it seems that Jim Antrim and KKMI certainly knew what they were doing.

Anyway, all that aside, I was totally impressed with the boat's layout and its massive interior volume for a 35-footer. With tiller steering, the cockpit was luxurious, and suited to racing or simply lounging about with a glass of wine (which is what we were doing). It looked to me like it would be quite dry in open water sailing. Down below was equally spacious and filled with light. The absence of a formal bulkhead separating the forepeak from the rest of the cabin accentuated the sense of space, and you would never feel claustrophobic in this boat. Since it featured a symmetrical spinnaker set-up, there was no sprit box intruding the bow (though the owner indicated that he is considering adding a fixed dolphin nose and switching to A-sails for IRC).

The aft cabin, on the port side, is also roomy and well-ventilated. The heads is on the starboard side, which is basically a large storage / work space. Access to most systems can be had there, while overall engine access from both sides and the front (companionway lifts up) is excellent. I figured you could probably re-build the engine without removing it.

According to the owner, the only thing that is less-than-optimal is the galley layout, where Archambault decided to put two coolers, one to either side of the stove. Looking at the pictures of the galley on the updated A35, due in 2014, they've addressed this issue by removing the cooler on the left of the stove and shifting the stove aft alongside the bulkhead. This creates more countertop space and allows for a larger single cooler.

As noted, the finish quality everywhere on the boat was terrific, and you would never guess the boat had raced across the Atlantic, been trucked across the U.S., then spent nearly a year in the boat yard being structurally repaired.

Indeed, a very interesting boat, and on my short-list of potential performance cruisers I'll be taking a look at when the time comes, particularly when the 2014 model hits the water. Also fond of the A31, which would probably be my preferred choice if I didn't want to go offshore beyond the Caribbean.


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## PCP

*Sydney -Hobart 2013*

The inscriptions are almost closing and this will be one of the years or the year with more entrants: Between 80 and 90 with 20 from overseas ports.

There are some new boats like the clipper's that had done what I said that the IMOCA and VOR should do, I mean make this race part of one of their legs, or kind of out of the port race

As a big disappointments comes the decision to continue to keep multihulls out. I guess the rich guys don't like multihulls and they want to keep line honors from themselves. I cannot see other explanation after all other classic races have allowed multihulls to race from some years now. They say that they want to maintain the "integrity and safety" of the race

Will those meaningless statements were made an Australian ex-Orma 60ft trimaran had pulverized the Sydney-Hobart record (in February) making a sailing time of one day and six hours, at times surfing downwind at 38 knots.

All this non sense can make an extra race event one as interesting as the race. The two local ex-Orma trimarans will make a particular race out of the race called "Challenge" and they will sail two hours after the fleet leaves Sydney bound to Hobart. I bet they will overtake Wild Oats and other leading boats really close. That will give some fantastic photos and video coverage

Some nice new boats this year like the VOR 70 Groupama now with another ownership and name (Giacomo) but nothing that can beat Wild Oats XI if they have no problem. The only new 100fr entrant is the Matlese Zefiro, but that is no race boat and not a mach to true race boats.

More interesting is the participation of Varuna, a Ker 50 comming from Germany but really fast boats are very few to join the habitual participants and that's a shame.

I would like to see all these big boats there, particularly Esimit Europe, the one I think it would beat Wild Oats...but I really would like to see that match: (starts to be interesting at 8.00m):






I have already posted it here but this is a great movie and if you did not see it don't miss it. A great movie of a great race.


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## robelz

*Re: Archambault 35*



MrPelicano said:


> I haven't been posting much lately as I've been on the road doing some racing. While I was in SF at the Melges 24 Worlds, I had the opportunity to meet the owner of a fairly new Archambault 35. He graciously invited me aboard and gave me the grand tour of his lovely boat, as well as the complete history.
> 
> The boat competed in the TransQuadra race, and was then put up for sale in Martinique upon arrival. The current owner flew down with two friends, bought the boat, then sailed it to Florida. It was then trucked across the U.S. to San Francisco and recommissioned.
> 
> Unfortunately, during the Richmond YC "Great Pumpkin Regatta", in October 2012, the boat was hit amidships by a Sydney 36 and suffered considerable structural damage. However, after consulting Jim Antrim and the KKMI boat yard, the decision was made to repair the boat, and the insurance company went along with it.
> 
> I can tell you, from first hand viewing, that the boat is immaculate. The only way you can tell that any repair work has been done is by the fact that the quality of the repair in several areas is better than the original factory finish in the same area on the other side of the boat.
> 
> And as to whether or not the boat's performance was affected, it won its class in the 2013 Rolex St. Francis YC Big Boat Regatta, sailed in typical SF Bay breezy conditions. So it seems that Jim Antrim and KKMI certainly knew what they were doing.
> 
> Anyway, all that aside, I was totally impressed with the boat's layout and its massive interior volume for a 35-footer. With tiller steering, the cockpit was luxurious, and suited to racing or simply lounging about with a glass of wine (which is what we were doing). It looked to me like it would be quite dry in open water sailing. Down below was equally spacious and filled with light. The absence of a formal bulkhead separating the forepeak from the rest of the cabin accentuated the sense of space, and you would never feel claustrophobic in this boat. Since it featured a symmetrical spinnaker set-up, there was no sprit box intruding the bow (though the owner indicated that he is considering adding a fixed dolphin nose and switching to A-sails for IRC).
> 
> The aft cabin, on the port side, is also roomy and well-ventilated. The heads is on the starboard side, which is basically a large storage / work space. Access to most systems can be had there, while overall engine access from both sides and the front (companionway lifts up) is excellent. I figured you could probably re-build the engine without removing it.
> 
> According to the owner, the only thing that is less-than-optimal is the galley layout, where Archambault decided to put two coolers, one to either side of the stove. Looking at the pictures of the galley on the updated A35, due in 2014, they've addressed this issue by removing the cooler on the left of the stove and shifting the stove aft alongside the bulkhead. This creates more countertop space and allows for a larger single cooler.
> 
> As noted, the finish quality everywhere on the boat was terrific, and you would never guess the boat had raced across the Atlantic, been trucked across the U.S., then spent nearly a year in the boat yard being structurally repaired.
> 
> Indeed, a very interesting boat, and on my short-list of potential performance cruisers I'll be taking a look at when the time comes, particularly when the 2014 model hits the water. Also fond of the A31, which would probably be my preferred choice if I didn't want to go offshore beyond the Caribbean.


Thanks for reviewing. Hope to see some new A35s on the next Transsquadra competing JPSs 1010s and new SF3600s.

I await the new 35 to be cosiderably faster (than the old ones that were slower than the 1010).


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## PCP

*Re: Archambault 35*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> Anyway, all that aside, I was totally impressed with the boat's layout and its massive interior volume for a 35-footer. With tiller steering, the cockpit was luxurious, and suited to racing or simply lounging about with a glass of wine (which is what we were doing). It looked to me like it would be quite dry in open water sailing. Down below was equally spacious and filled with light. The absence of a formal bulkhead separating the forepeak from the rest of the cabin accentuated the sense of space, and you would never feel claustrophobic in this boat. Since it featured a symmetrical spinnaker set-up, there was no sprit box intruding the bow (though the owner indicated that he is considering adding a fixed dolphin nose and switching to A-sails for IRC).
> 
> The aft cabin, on the port side, is also roomy and well-ventilated. The heads is on the starboard side, which is basically a large storage / work space. Access to most systems can be had there, while overall engine access from both sides and the front (companionway lifts up) is excellent. I figured you could probably re-build the engine without removing it.
> 
> According to the owner, the only thing that is less-than-optimal is the galley layout, where Archambault decided to put two coolers, one to either side of the stove. Looking at the pictures of the galley on the updated A35, due in 2014, they've addressed this issue by removing the cooler on the left of the stove and shifting the stove aft alongside the bulkhead. This creates more countertop space and allows for a larger single cooler.
> 
> As noted, the finish quality everywhere on the boat was terrific, and you would never guess the boat had raced across the Atlantic, been trucked across the U.S., then spent nearly a year in the boat yard being structurally repaired.
> 
> Indeed, a very interesting boat, and on my short-list of potential performance cruisers I'll be taking a look at when the time comes, particularly when the 2014 model hits the water. Also fond of the A31, which would probably be my preferred choice if I didn't want to go offshore beyond the Caribbean.


Ye, I agree but nothing I had no said already. That boat is probably the boat that has won more times the Transquadra and in its ability to be good as solo or duo racer in offshore races and also good in crewed races has also a rival and that is the JPK 10.10. You have to find a way to visit that one two and give us your impressions The JPK 10.10 is winning now more races than the A35 including the huge success that was the overall victory on the Fastnet with a duo crew (father and son)

It seems appropriate to repost this post about the A35 and the new version. It shows what you are sayng.



PCP said:


> I was a bit surprised with that. The boat is a winner, I mean it is still winning everywhere (solo, duo, full crew) and I was thinking how it would be possible to make a better boat.....well it turns out that it is nor really a new boat but an upgrade of the previous one and not only a cosmetic one : They managed to save 150kg making the cabin and deck also using vacuum infusion the technique they used already on the hull.
> 
> Talking about the hull, it is the same but curiously they have increased the ballast in 210kg and give it more 10cms of draft. So, diminished weight, more ballast and more draft that means *MORE POWER* as if the A35 has not already plenty.
> 
> Regarding the cosmetic part I am no sure I like more the lines of this one. Maybe the boat looks better than the designs and maybe the better alteration is on the interior, that was already a nice one for a high performance cruiser.
> 
> In fact they announce a cruiser and a racer. Maybe the cruiser has a better cruising interior and that would be great because the A35 has already a good cruising interior, in a spartan kind of way.
> 
> The new model (drawings) and the older one (photos):
> 
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> This is going to be a great occasion to buy one of these babies almost new at a discount price. The guys that race this boat seriously on the first league will want the new faster one and the price of the "old" one on the used market is going to come down.
> 
> And I saved the best for the end: Archambault was living hard days and it would bankrupt if it was not saved in extremis by a new investor. It seems that things are going well and I am sure this upgrade will be a success making even better a great boat.
> 
> ....


And indeed, they have showed some drawings of the new interior and if the real thing looks as well, the new interior is even better, in what regards a cruising utilization.





Regards

Paulo


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## robelz

Amazing <3

Looks way nicer than the 10.10 (to be fair we have to wait for the 1080)...


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## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> Amazing <3
> 
> Looks way nicer than the 10.10 (to be fair we have to wait for the 1080)...


I think what surprised me most about the A35 was simply how large it is for a 35-foot boat. I've sailed on a lot of 35-foot boats, including J/109s, J/105s, 1D35s, Santana 35s, etc., and the A35 felt bigger than all of them, except perhaps the 1D35, which is a pure race boat. In the photos you don't really get a good sense of how big it is.

One thing is certain, the owner of the boat I toured loved his boat. I probably spent an hour peering into every corner and listening to him extoll its virtues non-stop. The U.S. dealer (if there is one) needs to fly this fellow to boat shows and let him talk - they will sell a lot of these boats. 

By contrast, none of the J/109 owners I've sailed with were this enthusiastic about their boats. But maybe it's just traditional J/Boat owner personality.


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## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> ...
> By contrast, none of the J/109 owners I've sailed with were this enthusiastic about their boats. But maybe it's just traditional J/Boat owner personality.


J109 is an older slower boat. Try J111 owners

These guys scream of joy






However I don't think the J111 is as adapted as the A35 (or the JPK 10.10) to solo or short crew sailing, specially downwind. I don't imagine a guy going relatively fast downwind at the J111 while sleeping

Regards

Paulo


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## Edward3

Great video!
Similar conditions on a J/109 - never able to obtain those speeds, not even close.
The boat loads up and feels like it's going to explode but keeps plodding along...


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## PCP

*The last sail "news" - movie*

Great sailing images


----------



## PCP

*On Design: market tendencies and mechanical systems.*

On another thread there was an interesting discussion in what regards the relation between size of a boat and seaworthiness and also in what regards mechanical helps.

Some would think that will not apply to fast performance cruisers, at least in a significant way, I mean mechanical help and automatic systems but they are plain wrong. Sailing speed is related with size of the boat and if you really want a very fast boat then you want a big boat. Big boats needed a big crew to be sailed and that's a problem. Well not anymore, the problem is the extra money to buy complex systems and eventually more reliability problems even if the huge number of big sailing boats using these systems will contribute to a much improved reliability that seems already quite reasonable.

Have a look at what I am saying: This Swan 60 should have big grinders to be sail fast. Instead it has a lot of buttons.

have a good look at that mainsheet and boom controls. We don't see any big and complicated purchase system. The lines come clean from the boom.








They say about the Swan 60 set up and particularly about the above boat (that has been doing very well racing):

"Race-optimized versions, like Emma, have a racing boom rather than the Park Avenue style that comes on the cruising version. However, Emma is equipped with a Magic-Trim system that does away with the traveller, drastically reducing mainsail trim options. A racing mainsheet system is available as part of the optional $35,000 competition package.

On deck, sophisticated sail control systems and an ergonomically designed layout allow the Swan 60 to be easily sailed by just three people. The Magic-Trim mainsheet is a very safe innovation for cruisers, as it has no exposed finger-jamming blocks and includes a quick release that allows the main to be dumped in response to a large gust or when bearing away......All winches on board are electric, enabling effortless sail trimming and creating an uncluttered central cockpit devoid of pedestal grinders."

Flagship: Best Boats Swan 60 | Sail Magazine

The supplier of the Swan mainsheet system is Cariboni. you can have a look at the hydraulic purchase system and also to the the boats that use this suplier system from this supplier. This will give an idea of how expanded is its use among not only big yachts but big yachts that race extensively.

Cariboni - Marine Hydraulic Systems

Cariboni - Marine Hydraulic Systems

Wally uses the same system:






We will have to get used to more complex sailboats at least in what regards bigger sailboats. That's the only way they can be sailed by a couple or a very short crew and that's such a big advantage that justifies the use of more complex systems that have no reason not to be reliable given time and development...only more expensive


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## MrPelicano

*Re: On Design: market tendencies and mechanical systems.*



PCP said:


> On another thread there was an interesting discussion in what regards the relation between size of a boat and seaworthiness and also in what regards mechanical helps.
> 
> Some would think that will not apply to fast performance cruisers, at least in a significant way, I mean mechanical help and automatic systems but they are plain wrong. Sailing speed is related with size of the boat and if you really want a very fast boat then you want a big boat. Big boats needed a big crew to be sailed and that's a problem. Well not anymore, the problem is the extra money to buy complex systems and eventually more reliability problems even if the huge number of big sailing boats using these systems will contribute to a much improved reliability that seems already quite reasonable.
> 
> Have a look at what I am saying: This Swan 60 should have big grinders to be sail fast. Instead it has a lot of buttons.
> 
> have a good look at that mainsheet and boom controls. We don't see any big and complicated purchase system. The lines come clean from the boom.
> 
> They say about the Swan 60 set up and particularly about the above boat (that has been doing very well racing):
> 
> "Race-optimized versions, like Emma, have a racing boom rather than the Park Avenue style that comes on the cruising version. However, Emma is equipped with a Magic-Trim system that does away with the traveller, drastically reducing mainsail trim options. A racing mainsheet system is available as part of the optional $35,000 competition package.
> 
> On deck, sophisticated sail control systems and an ergonomically designed layout allow the Swan 60 to be easily sailed by just three people. The Magic-Trim mainsheet is a very safe innovation for cruisers, as it has no exposed finger-jamming blocks and includes a quick release that allows the main to be dumped in response to a large gust or when bearing away......All winches on board are electric, enabling effortless sail trimming and creating an uncluttered central cockpit devoid of pedestal grinders."
> 
> The supplier of the Swan mainsheet system is Cariboni. you can have a look at the hydraulic purchase system and also to the the boats that use this suplier system from this supplier. This will give an idea of how expanded is its use among not only big yachts but big yachts that race extensively.
> 
> Wally uses the same system:
> 
> We will have to get used to more complex sailboats at least in what regards bigger sailboats. That's the only way they can be sailed by a couple or a very short crew and that's such a big advantage that justifies the use of more complex systems that have no reason not to be reliable given time and development...only more expensive


The very successful SF-based Mills' designed King 40 _Soozal_ was optimized by Easom Rigging with electric mainsheet winches which, surprisingly, were not penalized under IRC - or at least not sufficiently to prevent installation or compromise winning performance.

I think the chief hurdle to using these systems in smaller boats - e.g., under 40'-50' - is likely to be power consumption. Admittedly, in cruising boats you don't typically trim your sails all that much, so presumably you wouldn't drain your batteries by using electric main sheet, primary and secondary winches, but in performance cruising mode you'd probably suck some amps, particularly if you're shorthanded and running autohelm, AIS and other instruments.

So, probably need to see continuing improvements in power generation and storage before these systems become ubiquitous. And, of course, there's always that underlying issue about electricity and salt water - you'll need to have some kind of manual back-up solution in the event you lose power.

Interesting stuff.


----------



## MrPelicano

PCP said:


> J109 is an older slower boat. Try J111 owners
> 
> These guys scream of joy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However I don't think the J111 is as adapted as the A35 (or the JPK 10.10) to solo or short crew sailing, specially downwind. I don't imagine a guy going relatively fast downwind at the J111 while sleeping
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I see that there is now a new crew position on racing yachts: GoPro camera operator.  Something borrowed from Volvo Ocean Racing - i.e., the media "crew". Would like to have that job on the boat, and get off the bow for a change.


----------



## PCP

*Re: On Design: market tendencies and mechanical systems.*



MrPelicano said:


> .. Admittedly, in cruising boats you don't typically trim your sails all that much, so presumably you wouldn't drain your batteries by using electric main sheet, primary and secondary winches, but in performance cruising mode you'd probably suck some amps, particularly if you're shorthanded and running autohelm, AIS and other instruments.
> 
> So, probably need to see continuing improvements in power generation and storage before these systems become ubiquitous. And, of course, there's always that underlying issue about electricity and salt water - you'll need to have some kind of manual back-up solution in the event you lose power.
> 
> Interesting stuff.


I posted this on another thread but as it seems to be relevant and related with what you said, I will post it here also:

"the typical cruiser boat, specially the ones that are used offshore are much bigger than 30 or 40 years ago but they are not more difficult to sail. They are more stable and we can do all reefing from the cockpit without going forward on a narrow smaller boat that is much more unstable than a much bigger beamier boat.

40 years ago it was unthinkable to sail solo a 50 or 60ft sailboat, even with a little help from the wife: too much efforts, too much difficulty. Today there are lots of couples there sailing boats like those, because it had become easy: Smaller sails (from the same size of boat), Jib on a traveler, all (easy) reefing from the cockpit and remote controlled winches took most of the effort of sailing and made easy big boats. Because big boats are more seaworthy have a better sea motion and are faster the market went that way, or should I say, cruisers went that way?
....

I have to say that I prefer to keep it simple, if I can, but some facts with my own boat helped me to change of opinion regarding these systems:

I would not have bought a sailboat with electric winches but mine come with an electric winch and a remote control, that I thought it were pretty useless on a 41ft sailboat. I was wrong. I cannot put my big main (52 m2) fully up without the help of a winch and even putting 2/3 up it takes a considerably effort that I can do (for now) but someone weaker will not be able to do (I am big). Even for myself and using a non motorized winch it take a considerable effort to put the sail up. Using the Electric winch I just pull the first 1/5 of the sail up by hand, out of the lazy bag and then use the electric winch and voilá, the sail is up in 10s without any effort.

The boat is 7 years old and the winch works like if it was new.

Regarding the winch remote control, a weightless thing very small, I was so suspicious that on the first year never used the thing. Give it a try this year and now it is always around my neck. How coll it is to trim the main sail from the steering wheel at the push of a button? Very cool I can tell you. I only regret that the winch is not one of the new ones that allow trimming on the two positions, to let go and to pull.

I guess that on the third year with the boat I will have to learn how to use properly the remote control for the steering wheel that I confess, never used but that can proven very useful to solo sailing. In fact Solo racing sailors use it extensively."

I don't think the consumption is significant, except to hoist the main but I always do that with the engine running. The consumption is much less than the one on the autopilot and even in what regards guys that like to have the sails right (I try) you don't use it that much time, I mean each time you use it it will be for one or two seconds each time.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sad, bad strange and maybe beautiful - movie*

Livorno, collisione durante una regata: affonda una barca, salvo l'equipaggio - Video Il Tirreno


----------



## FirstCandC

Didn't see the Morris 45RS in this thread:
45 RS - Morris Yachts
Beautiful boat.


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat - Finaly!!!!*

They are out going at 10K. The fastest is the American doing almost 12K





Départ Mini transat : Ambiance _por minitransat_

Sailing a proto Gwénolé, a Briton (French) is first, Giancarlo, an Italian (NA Lombard - Antoine Riou), 2th (NA David Raison). On the series boat the first is Ian Lipinski sailing a Pogo 2, a Finot design.

Hot

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Sad, bad strange and maybe beautiful - movie*



PCP said:


> Livorno, collisione durante una regata: affonda una barca, salvo l'equipaggio - Video Il Tirreno


Wonder if the skipper of "Telepathy" was awarded redress in the race or if he got tossed for breaking Rule 14. 

Hard to say who was at fault, but typically when one boat t-bones another, it's a port / starboard incident and the boat making contact is typically the port tack boat, in my experience. In which case, judging from the damage, it looks like "Telepathy" is going to score DSQ in that one. Insurance company won't be happy.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mini Transat - Finaly!!!!*



PCP said:


> They are out going at 10K. The fastest is the American doing almost 12K
> 
> Sailing a proto Gwénolé, a Briton (French) is first, Giancarlo, an Italian (NA Lombard - Antoine Riou), 2th (NA David Raison). On the series boat the first is Ian Lipinski sailing a Pogo 2, a Finot design.
> 
> Hot
> 
> Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


Yes, indeed, Gahinet went out fast, with Pedote and Pulve hot on his heels. With the breeze at 309 NNW and the boats heading 206, you'd think that 747 would have a speed advantage in confused seas and 16 knots of breeze. But we know from early season races that Gahinet is blazingly fast in almost every condition. It will be a fast first leg, I predict, and hopefully the fleet will get past Finisterre without too much drama.

As for McFarlane, he almost didn't make the race when he lost his first boat, in very rough conditions, doing his 1,000 mile qualifier in the Med. Fortunately, he was able to secure another boat, perhaps even better than the one he lost, but he didn't have much time to get it dialed in. Apparently, he used his time well.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: On Design: market tendencies and mechanical systems.*



PCP said:


> I posted this on another thread but as it seems to be relevant and related with what you said, I will post it here also:
> 
> "the typical cruiser boat, specially the ones that are used offshore are much bigger than 30 or 40 years ago but they are not more difficult to sail. They are more stable and we can do all reefing from the cockpit without going forward on a narrow smaller boat that is much more unstable than a much bigger beamier boat.
> 
> 40 years ago it was unthinkable to sail solo a 50 or 60ft sailboat, even with a little help from the wife: too much efforts, too much difficulty. Today there are lots of couples there sailing boats like those, because it had become easy: Smaller sails (from the same size of boat), Jib on a traveler, all (easy) reefing from the cockpit and remote controlled winches took most of the effort of sailing and made easy big boats. Because big boats are more seaworthy have a better sea motion and are faster the market went that way, or should I say, cruisers went that way?
> ....
> 
> I have to say that I prefer to keep it simple, if I can, but some facts with my own boat helped me to change of opinion regarding these systems:
> 
> I would not have bought a sailboat with electric winches but mine come with an electric winch and a remote control, that I thought it were pretty useless on a 41ft sailboat. I was wrong. I cannot put my big main (52 m2) fully up without the help of a winch and even putting 2/3 up it takes a considerably effort that I can do (for now) but someone weaker will not be able to do (I am big). Even for myself and using a non motorized winch it take a considerable effort to put the sail up. Using the Electric winch I just pull the first 1/5 of the sail up by hand, out of the lazy bag and then use the electric winch and voilá, the sail is up in 10s without any effort.
> 
> The boat is 7 years old and the winch works like if it was new.
> 
> Regarding the winch remote control, a weightless thing very small, I was so suspicious that on the first year never used the thing. Give it a try this year and now it is always around my neck. How coll it is to trim the main sail from the steering wheel at the push of a button? Very cool I can tell you. I only regret that the winch is not one of the new ones that allow trimming on the two positions, to let go and to pull.
> 
> I guess that on the third year with the boat I will have to learn how to use properly the remote control for the steering wheel that I confess, never used but that can proven very useful to solo sailing. In fact Solo racing sailors use it extensively."
> 
> I don't think the consumption is significant, except to hoist the main but I always do that with the engine running. The consumption is much less than the one on the autopilot and even in what regards guys that like to have the sails right (I try) you don't use it that much time, I mean each time you use it it will be for one or two seconds each time.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Just curious but have you tried a 2:1 main halyard set-up? Makes it a bit easier to hoist the main when you're shorthanded. I'm not a big person (1.7M and 70.3 kg) but I've never had trouble putting up the main on a Swan 42 or Farr 40 jumping from the mast, with someone tailing in the cockpit. Usually the last meter or so has to be winched up, but not a big problem with adequately sized cabin-top winches and a decent winch handle. We had an electric halyard winch on the Santa Cruz 52 that we used, but two people could get that main up at the mast by hand.

But no question that using an electric winch for halyards makes sense and wouldn't drain your battery. I was thinking more in terms of electric main and jib trimming in a perfomance context - e.g., like on the King 40 I described - where you are tacking pretty often and continually trimming the main. I'm trying to imagine that kind of set-up in a smaller boat, like a Mini 6.5 or a Pogo 30. Probably requires that you have an inboard diesel or auxiliary generator of some sort - solar / wind / hydro is not going to do the trick, I think. Could be wrong, though.


----------



## PCP

*Morris 45RC*



FirstCandC said:


> Didn't see the Morris 45RS in this thread:
> 45 RS - Morris Yachts
> Beautiful boat.


Probably not. From Morris we have beam posting about the M series designed by S&S that in my opinion are a much better design (as a classic boat) than the Morris 45Rs as a performance cruiser.

The boat has a very high quality nice interior but has an old Chuck Paine hull with a Jim Taylor keel (even that alteration has more than 5 years) and if the boat is certainly better with that keel than with the original old designed big non bulbed keel, the hull remains old and not very interesting. Besides that all that wood makes the boat heavy and for about 1.5 million dollars you can get a much more interesting and much faster performance cruising boat.

I believe they are making and selling well the M series (classic boats) but I doubt that they will sell the 45RC for that price as a performance cruiser, at least any significant number.

That's a pity. I do not understand why a brand with such tradition, quality of building and workmanship does not invest in modern cruising and performance cruising designs (hulls) and have not some of the best contemporary NA working with them on that. Even Bavaria has its cruisers designed by Farr
















Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: On Design: market tendencies and mechanical systems.*



MrPelicano said:


> Just curious but have you tried a 2:1 main halyard set-up? Makes it a bit easier to hoist the main when you're shorthanded. I'm not a big person (1.7M and 70.3 kg) but I've never had trouble putting up the main on a Swan 42 or Farr 40 jumping from the mast, with someone tailing in the cockpit. Usually the last meter or so has to be winched up, but not a big problem with adequately sized cabin-top winches and a decent winch handle. We had an electric halyard winch on the Santa Cruz 52 that we used, but two people could get that main up at the mast by hand.
> 
> ....


Yes, probably I would not have a problem in putting it up like you say, except that we would need three to do that. I mean one to put the boat on the wind another to pull the sail at the mast and another to tailing from the cockpit.

Sometimes I do it alone with a little help from the autopilot (always from the cockpit) but most of the times I do it with my wife putting the boat on the wind (with the autopilot it requires more time to find the right course against the wind that sometimes is light and changing).

From the cockpit you have increased friction and besides cruising sails are a lot heavier than racing sails. I have no problem putting a 38ft sail up from the cockpit. I have tried with the Salona 38 and the Elan 380 but with a 41ft with a big sail I have to winch the last 1/3 and even so it is not that easy (I could not do it with the Salona 41 either).

With the electric winch it is fast and easy.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*

*"The Race Director of the Mini Transat has decided to implement plan B, which had been mentioned before the start at the last competitor briefing. The fleet will now stop at the port of Sada, near La Coruna, to wait for the strong winds from the south-west that will sweep Cape Finisterre, on 1 and 2 November to moderate and go northwest. The fleet is expected to arrive in the area on the night of October 31 to November 1."
*

http://www.minitransat.fr/actualites/la-pause-espagnole?lang=en

This is crazy They are killing the mini transat. I cannot see anything seriously enough on the weather that leads to this decision. The Mini Transat is a race but also an adventure with controlled risks. They are followed by support boats and the racers have plenty of safety measures in case of a big accident.

I remember some years ago Lobato (a Portuguese) beating all protos with a series boat in high winds and big seas at the middle of the Ocean. It seems we will not see anything like this again. It seems that the Mini-Transat now it is a race like any other with a special emphasis on security. Goodbye adventure

By the way, an Italian is leading, but it seems to me that sadly that is not the main news right now





Départ de la Mini Transat - 29 octobre 2013, 09H19 _by minitransat_


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> *"The Race Director of the Mini Transat has decided to implement plan B, which had been mentioned before the start at the last competitor briefing. The fleet will now stop at the port of Sada, near La Coruna, to wait for the strong winds from the south-west that will sweep Cape Finisterre, on 1 and 2 November to moderate and go northwest. The fleet is expected to arrive in the area on the night of October 31 to November 1."
> *
> 
> La pause espagnole | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre
> 
> This is crazy They are killing the mini transat. I cannot see anything seriously enough on the weather that leads to this decision. The Mini Transat is a race but also an adventure with controlled risks. They are followed by support boats and the racers have plenty of safety measures in case of a big accident.
> 
> I remember some years ago Lobato (a Portuguese) beating all protos with a series boat in high winds and big seas at the middle of the Ocean. It seems we will not see anything like this again. It seems that the Mini-Transat now it is a race like any other with a special emphasis on security. Goodbye adventure
> 
> By the way, an Italian is leading, but it seems to me that sadly that is not the main news right now


I have to agree, to some extent, that I'm also not seeing the weather issues south of Finisterre that motivated the RC to route the fleet through Sada. While it's true the breeze is on the nose, it's only blowing around 16 knots, and the further west you go the lighter it gets. And once you get about half way down the coast of Portugal, the trades start to kick in all the way to the Canary Islands (where it's actually blowing quite hard - 18-29 knots - but from a good direction (NNE))

The only thing I can imagine is that the RC has access to more detailed forecasts which provide a different local picture in close proximity to Finisterre. A point of comparison might be the local conditions off Point Conception, on the California coast, where you effectively transition from the cooler Northern California weather to the warmer Southern California conditions. That's a place that can get very nasty, very quickly, in terms of both wind strength and sea state. One year we transited the area and ended up going downwind at 6 knots under no sails at all, for several hours. This was on a J/105 - that same evening another J/105 near us was dismasted.

On the other hand, as one French commenter pointed out, while the top Mini sailors are either professionals or aspiring professionals, there have always been a significant number of amateurs who are pursuing their own personal goals, often at considerable expense and sacrifice. So the Race Committee is choosing not to place them in a situation that could conceivably lead to unnecessary carnage - i.e., that point at which you're not racing anymore, just surviving. I tend to agree. And, besides, whether the race is 2 legs or 3 legs, it is still a true test of skill and endurance. But perhaps in future they might consider starting the race in Cascais. 

Meanwhile, Pedote is demonstrating that 747's victory in the 2011 MT was no fluke. Though he trailed Gahinet initially, he took the lead and has extended to about 6 miles and should hold that into Sada, barring unforeseen circumstances. Conditions really favored the scow design - solid breeze just aft of the beam, and disturbed sea state. I bet it has been a wet ride for everyone involved. Go Jumbo!


----------



## PCP

*Stormy weather : Med and Atlantic.*

Since we are talking about bad weather, let's just have a look at the differences between Med and Atlantic. It may come as handy to some . I have sailed some thousands of miles on the med and on the Atlantic I can tell you what any other sailor that have got some nasty weather on both will tell you: They are very different but equally dangerous. Bigger waves on the Atlantic but much shorter period and steeper seas on the Med.

A force seven is not much on the Atlatic and if you have a good and powerful boat you can even make some decent way upwind going up and down big waves. On the med it is a much wetter ride even if the waves are smaller and the speed upwind a lot smaller to the point that it is not worth it. The problem in the med is that the waves have a so short period that when the bow of the boat is down from a wave another can enter just over the bow and sweep the boat. That is very frequent and happened to me several times just this year.

If you don't know the med and go charter a boat there take notice: That's not the Atlantic and a Force 8 can be a lot nastier than a typical Atlantic F9. Have a look:

Med:






Atlantic:






Don't miss this one taken just some days ago:

Wetter: Im Orkan ? irre Bilder von Bord - Panorama*|*YACHT.DE






Another typical med thing is very sudden storms due to the proximity of opposed big mass of lands, many of them mountainous. They can come from nowhere and hit you like an hammer. I have been hit by a big one with winds out of the scale and can tell you it is not agreeable. I saw the thing come on the radar like a big black monster

It happened to this guys also:






Downwind, even of it is a bit more agitated than on the Atlantic (specially if you are getting waves on the side of the stern) it is big fun and not too difficult till F8:

Med:
















On the Atlantic downwind with F7/8 it is also not normally a problem but the waves are bigger, not so frequent. Some older designs can roll a lo and that can be dangerous.
















Well, if this serves no purpose, at least you saw some great movies


----------



## Edward3

I know it was a long time ago but, on the last video of Steinlager 2 - the helmsman was tethered to the lifelines with his harness. Need to find a lot better anchor point in those conditions.
Amazing they were even wearing inflatable life jackets along with tethers.


----------



## robelz

Anyone interested?

PS: Who of you will visit the BOOT 2014?


----------



## PCP

Edward3 said:


> I know it was a long time ago but, on the last video of Steinlager 2 - the helmsman was tethered to the lifelines with his harness. Need to find a lot better anchor point in those conditions.
> Amazing they were even wearing inflatable life jackets along with tethers.


I did not have noticed. That is so crazy that is funny

Regarding the lifejacket it is one of those that has an integrated harness. Maybe that's the only harness they had, the integrated one.

The first thing I had done to my boat was providing it with permanent jack lines, very discrete but very efficient textil lines, white ones, the color of the deck. Last year I sailed the boat without them and I felt quite naked

To be said that the only cruising brand that I know off that offers as option integrated Jack lines is Bavaria. All the others will purpose you those textile stripes that you will hook along the side deck and are not much better than to hook yourself on the lifeline since they allow it you to pass overboard.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## DiasDePlaya

In the Mini Transat the Prysmian 747, ex Team Work 747 is in first place again, but now saliling upwind in the middle of the Bay of Biscay!

Who said that the scow desing can't sail upwind fast?


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> In the Mini Transat the Prysmian 747, ex Team Work 747 is in first place again, but now saliling upwind in the middle of the Bay of Biscay!
> 
> Who said that the scow desing can't sail upwind fast?


Let's see for how much time. The boat can sail upwind fast without waves of significant height. I don't think it will be the case and in that case I believe that more "normal" boats will be faster.

But that will be very interesting to see, I mean if what I said is right or not. Anyway, for sure it is a hell lot less comfortable

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 3 and Pogo 40 S3*



robelz said:


> Anyone interested?
> PS: Who of you will visit the BOOT 2014?


Yes, the little one is on the way and the big one too

Pogo 3:









Pogo 40 S3







Regarding the Boot, do you mean Dusseldorf? Only if I can't. I like the fair and I like the beer (do you know the old brewery in the center that makes it's own beer?).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Global Ocean Race 2014 -2015*

It seems that it is on this edition that this circumnavigation race will become the classic it deserves to be...or maybe not. Almost a year for the start and they have already 9 entries...but they are just good amateurs not really professionals.

The best solo sailors on the 40class are out...still out. I hope some will come in because this race has a lot of potential and there are plenty of 40class racers around.

The promotion video is a nice one:


----------



## DiasDePlaya

PCP said:


> Let's see for how much time. The boat can sail upwind fast without waves of significant height. I don't think it will be the case and in that case I believe that more "normal" boats will be faster.
> 
> But that will be very interesting to see, I mean if what I said is right or not. Anyway, for sure it is a hell lot less comfortable
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Comfortable and Mini 6.50 are not compatible concepts in any way!


----------



## robelz

*Re: Pogo 3 and Pogo 40 S3*



PCP said:


> Regarding the Boot, do you mean Dusseldorf? Only if I can't. I like the fair and I like the beer (do you know the old brewery in the center that makes it's own beer?).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Which one? Schumacher? Füchschen? Uerige? There are some newer and smaller ones that are pretty good, too. e.g. "Kürzer Alt"...

PS: I don't understand "only if I can't"...


----------



## PCP

*Boat show*



robelz said:


> Which one? Schumacher? Füchschen? Uerige? There are some newer and smaller ones that are pretty good, too. e.g. "Kürzer Alt"...
> 
> PS: I don't understand "only if I can't"...


Hamburg is a good one but it is now.

Paris is also a good one. Life is complicated. We can't do always what we want

Dusseldorf is the best

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

*Re: Boat show*



PCP said:


> Hamburg is a good one but it is now.
> 
> Paris is also a good one. Life is complicated. We can't do always what we want
> 
> Dusseldorf is the best
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I am going to visit Düsseldorf in 2014 (it is only 10km from home). So if someone here is going to come, give me a sign. There is always time for coffee and smalltalk - and even more time for some beer...


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*

That's amazing. In fact the bath tube bow boat continues to lead and managed not to lose distance during the night in conditions that apparently would not suit that boat. Great sailing also by his skipper, Giancarlo that has won a bit over all other boats. I bet nobody slept last night

That is also amazing the speed and angle that those fat little boats can do close upwind with waves in what is the point of sail they perform the worst. They are doing over 5K and some top boats over 6K with an angle just a bit worse than 45º true.

Conditions should not be easy out there, that's a place where you don't want to sail upwind with 16K of wind (almost 20 apparent). Steep waves and confused seas. That was a tough night and it will be a though day.

Some great pictures here:

Photos première étape en mer | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

I hope they get us a nice movie from their Galicia arrival. They are all pretty close.

Now we can see why the race direction wanted to neutralize the race in Galicia:In 24 hours a front will pass there with 33k winds and that means gusting 40 or 50K. ****ty weather in Europe. Big storms swept England and Germany and they say that the other big Transat will start with 25/30K upwind winds.

Well, too bad for them but I hope that can give us some fantastic images

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


----------



## MrPelicano

Edward3 said:


> I know it was a long time ago but, on the last video of Steinlager 2 - the helmsman was tethered to the lifelines with his harness. Need to find a lot better anchor point in those conditions.
> Amazing they were even wearing inflatable life jackets along with tethers.


I noticed that too, but then realized that they were in the midst of a helmsman change. The helmsman coming off the wheel was temporarily clipped to the lifeline while the new helmsman clipped in to a fixed pad-eye. You'll notice a bit later that the old helmsman clips in somewhere on the deck behind the wheel, as the new helmsman is driving.

It occurred to me that these guys are professionals and probably wouldn't take big risks in those conditions. The short amount of time spent clipped to the lifeline was no doubt deemed acceptable risk to enable the new driver to get clipped in to the fixed point, since he doesn't have the relative safety of holding on to the wheel.

My 2 cents.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> That's amazing. In fact the bath tube bow boat continues to lead and managed not to lose distance during the night in conditions that apparently would not suit that boat. Great sailing also by his skipper, Giancarlo that has won a bit over all other boats. I bet nobody slept last night
> 
> That is also amazing the speed and angle that those fat little boats can do close upwind with waves in what is the point of sail they perform the worst. They are doing over 5K and some top boats over 6K with an angle just a bit worse than 45º true.
> 
> Conditions should not be easy out there, that's a place where you don't want to sail upwind with 16K of wind (almost 20 apparent). Steep waves and confused seas. That was a tough night and it will be a though day.
> 
> Some great pictures here:
> 
> Photos première étape en mer | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre
> 
> I hope they get us a nice movie from their Galicia arrival. They are all pretty close.
> 
> Now we can see why the race direction wanted to neutralize the race in Galicia:In 24 hours a front will pass there with 33k winds and that means gusting 40 or 50K. ****ty weather in Europe. Big storms swept England and Germany and they say that the other big Transat will start with 25/30K upwind winds.
> 
> Well, too bad for them but I hope that can give us some fantastic images
> 
> Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


Glad I read ahead before responding to your earlier comment on 747. Not only did Pedote not lose distance over his competitors, he actually extended his 6 mile lead to over 11 miles, with less than 50 miles to the finish. While it is true that upwind in the scow is not optimal, compared to the earlier part of the leg where everyone was power reaching, in confused seas it may still have an advantage by not burying the bow in waves quite as much - i.e., the same advantage it has reaching in waves (the famous 6.50 practice video we saw earlier this year showed the advantage quite clearly).

Structures is probably taking the right path with the new Pogo 3, which does feature a fuller bow section but doesn't go full-scow. Still too many potential buyers put off by the less-than-elegant appearance of 747. But I predict that if Pedote wins the whole thing, the top guys will all be building scow designs for 2015.


----------



## robelz

*Re: Mini Transat*



MrPelicano said:


> But I predict that if Pedote wins the whole thing, the top guys will all be building scow designs for 2015.


I wondered why no one did for 2013!?


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> I wondered why no one did for 2013!?


In case Raison's victory in 2011 was just luck. 

Seriously, though, most people don't like how the boat looks and, given that predisposition, they were probably able to convince themselves that it was Raison's superior skills that gave him the victory, more than the boat design. Remember that he didn't win Leg 1 in 2011, but did dominate Leg 2. So probably not quite enough evidence to convince the skeptical that the scow is a superior design for the MT. That's my guess.

But if Pedote wins, then the top guys are going to realize it wasn't a fluke and the design is optimal for that race. Raison will then be able to have a very big smile indeed.


----------



## PCP

*David Raison and Mini Transat*



MrPelicano said:


> ... Raison will then be able to have a very big smile indeed.


He certainly deserves that. He had not many work propositions for designing new boats even if he had to sail his boat himself to victory to prove that he was an innovative talented NA and not a lunatic.

The only command was for an odd aluminium cruising mini, an interesting concept but with a very marginal public target. If he associates himself with a prime interior designer they can make an incredible cruising 35ft. That hull is not only good in what regard sail power but also in interior space. Probably the best size would be a 35ft that will have the interior space of same 40fts.

Sure, it would be an uncomfortable offshore boat (upwind with waves) but most sail only coastal and many on semi protected waters and there it will make all the sense. No, about the looks...I guess that it will take time and also a innovative cabin design to make it desirable. Some victories and the spread of the concept to other racing classes will contribute to that also.






Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Maestro 345 Mainpage

We talked about this beauty once. Mailed them but never got an answer. I do not know wether someone ever posted the pictures of the finished maestro? What do you think about its shorthanded capabilities?


----------



## PCP

*Maestro 345*



robelz said:


> Maestro 345 Mainpage
> 
> We talked about this beauty once. Mailed them but never got an answer. I do not know wether someone ever posted the pictures of the finished maestro? What do you think about its shorthanded capabilities?


Try again, they are still alive even if probably not well. Their European dealers don't mention their boats but they have been in August in a boat show in Finland with the "old" but nice 40ft. B«very classic and very opposed to the 345:

http://www.maestroboats.fi/Article_images/YachtingMonthly/YM_6_2009_p1.jpg






Regarding the new and exiting 345, it is on the water but contrary of what would been to expect, no boat tests, no promotion...nothing. Very odd



Regards

Paulo


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## robelz

In fact they ARE sailing shorthanded 

Any picture of the interior?


----------



## JAndersB

I mentioned earlier that Search Magazine did a test of the Dragonfly 32 while we where test sailing the boat in august. Here is a link to the magazine. I have the test as pdf and will come back regarding what they say (it is in swedish). I and my wife are at the helm in the pic, sailing with full main and code-0. Gusting 10-11 m/s tws and we topped 17,9 knots.

Vi testar Dragonfly 32 Supreme i nästa nummer av Search...

Regards,
Anders


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: 2013 Mini Transat Race*

Well, the Race Committee has decided to abandon the Douarnenez-Sada leg of the race due to concerns about the weather. Competitors were advised to head for Gijon or the nearest Cantabrian port. The leaders in the Proto and Series class, will be arriving in Sada shortly, with Giancarlo Pedote (747) extending his lead over Gahinet to 13 miles, with fewer than 20 miles to go (indeed, he is probably already there).

I don't want to speculate about climate change, but this has certainly been one of the strangest weather patterns I've seen, and the photos of the Mini 6.50's at sea certainly confirm that conditions have been very tough, even though the wind strength has not been above 20 knots. Be sure to see the great shots of 747 blasting through the waves with double-reefed main, solent and screecher. Gives you an idea what a wet, rough ride it has been.

What they do next will be interesting. Presumably the boats will have to re-group somewhere, perhaps Sada, but does this mean that Craig Horsefield will be able to rejoin the race if he can fix his boat and truck it to the start? Will they move the start further south to A Coruna or Cascais? Will they wait in Sada for a better window? Who knows?

And, of course, what about the TJV, which is cued up and ready to go? A very interesting time to be following offshore racing. Unfortunately, most people in North America are oblivious to all of this. Pity.


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> I mentioned earlier that Search Magazine did a test of the Dragonfly 32 while we where test sailing the boat in august. Here is a link to the magazine. I have the test as pdf and will come back regarding what they say (it is in swedish). I and my wife are at the helm in the pic, sailing with full main and code-0. Gusting 10-11 m/s tws and we topped 17,9 knots.
> 
> Vi testar Dragonfly 32 Supreme i nästa nummer av Search...
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


It seems that it is not with me. Your video is blocked due to lack of copyright on the music.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: 2013 Mini Transat Race*



MrPelicano said:


> Well, the Race Committee has decided to abandon the Douarnenez-Sada leg of the race due to concerns about the weather. Competitors were advised to head for Gijon or the nearest Cantabrian port. The leaders in the Proto and Series class, will be arriving in Sada shortly, with Giancarlo Pedote (747) extending his lead over Gahinet to 13 miles, with fewer than 20 miles to go (indeed, he is probably already there).
> 
> I don't want to speculate about climate change, but this has certainly been one of the strangest weather patterns I've seen, and the photos of the Mini 6.50's at sea certainly confirm that conditions have been very tough, even though the wind strength has not been above 20 knots. Be sure to see the great shots of 747 blasting through the waves with double-reefed main, solent and screecher. Gives you an idea what a wet, rough ride it has been.
> 
> What they do next will be interesting. Presumably the boats will have to re-group somewhere, perhaps Sada, but does this mean that Craig Horsefield will be able to rejoin the race if he can fix his boat and truck it to the start? Will they move the start further south to A Coruna or Cascais? Will they wait in Sada for a better window? Who knows?
> 
> And, of course, what about the TJV, which is cued up and ready to go? A very interesting time to be following offshore racing. Unfortunately, most
> people in North America are oblivious to all of this. Pity.


I did not post about it buy saw that those 24 hours till the bad weather had been shorted to 12 and thought that the slower boats would be in trouble.

But they could learn something with the motorsport world namely with the rallies : They could have determined that the six or so top protos and the first of the series were authorized to race to Sada, if they want and find suitable conditions (I think they all have time to make it to port safely). To any of those boats that chose not to race to Sada and to all the others that have to look for shelter in the Cantabria coast would be attributed the time of the last one to arrive to Sada.

Nothing new at least in Rallies and it would preserve the sportive truth.

Like that it is ridiculous. All those guys battling with upwind sailing for nothing? That's not right!!!

Regarding climate change last year we had practically no spring, on the Aegean everybody was commenting about the most windy summer in many years and some days ago UK has experienced the worst storm in 10 years

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elan 320*

The Elan 310 was a favorite boat, good for cruising, good for club racing, good for short crew sailing. The 320 seems better: The same hull, what looks like a nicer interior, slightly lighter and with a bigger draft that certainly will improve the upwind performance. Now come with a two wheel set up. I don't see a tiller version and that's a shame. Maybe they will offer one in the future if the demand justifies it.

The boat is not on the same league as the A31 or the JPK 960 (neither in what regards price) but it will be a better cruiser boat, with a better interior and a good sailing performance. A very nice performance cruiser.

First presentation on the Hamburg boat show:


----------



## robelz

"Eine Pinnensteuerung wie beim Vorgängermodell 310 bleibt weiterhin als Option erhältlich."

From the article in the german YACHT magazine. In english: Like with its predecessor a tiller steering is still available as an option...


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> "Eine Pinnensteuerung wie beim Vorgängermodell 310 bleibt weiterhin als Option erhältlich."
> 
> From the article in the german YACHT magazine. In english: Like with its predecessor a tiller steering is still available as an option...


I hope they are right, it would be the right choice for a more sportive sailing...but they say nothing about it on the Elan website nor on the boat file. Odd

http://www.elan-yachts.com/img/yachts/e320/ELAN_320_press_release.pdf

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> I hope they are right, it would be the right choice for a more sportive sailing...but they say nothing about it on the Elan website nor on the boat file. Odd
> 
> http://www.elan-yachts.com/img/yachts/e320/ELAN_320_press_release.pdf
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Second page in this document (deck plan): tiller optional


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Second page in this document (deck plan): tiller optional


Yes you are right, they make a reference only in the drawing, they don't say nothing on the description. I guess that the tiller will not sell boats, at least many

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*"En Solitaire"*





En Solitaire - Bande-annonce officielle _by EnSolitaire_

That's a movie and it seems to be an interesting one:

*Yann Madec, long-time best mate of Frank Drevil, the star skipper of Global System Insurance, sees his dream come true when he replaces the injured Frank at the last minute for the start of the Vendée Globe. Nine days into the race and leading, Yann is forced to stop in Cape Verde to repair his broken center-board. Back in the race, Yann discovers a stowaway on board, a Senegalese teenager named Moussa. Faced with the risk of disqualification because of Moussa's presence, Yann hesitates&#8230; Their encounter leads to the most unforgettable round-the-world race ever.*

En solitaire (2013) directed by Christophe Offenstein ? Film + cast ? Letterboxd


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> It seems that it is not with me. Your video is blocked due to lack of copyright on the music.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


It is not a video, just a link to the magazine web page where they show a picture and write that the test is coming up soon (and in next issue of the free magazine).

Segling | Segling News | Search Magazine

Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> It is not a video, just a link to the magazine web page where they show a picture and write that the test is coming up soon (and in next issue of the free magazine).
> 
> Segling | Segling News | Search Magazine
> 
> Anders


Yes Anders, but the movie is hosted by the magazine on you tube :






When I click on the video (on the magazine) it appears a message saying that it is blocked due to lack copyright.

Guys, I am the only one that cannot see that video? I doubt it.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Same for me...


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*

As I was expecting on the Mini Transat the 5 leading boats made it safely to Sada. The situation of neutralizing the race without a classification seems unacceptable to me. As in other races could be neutralized at a certain arbitrary point (as it happened recently with a Open60 race) and the classifications and times being the ones there. To the ones that did not manage to pass there at a given hour would be given the same time of the last that had made it.

They had at least 12 hours to find a solution. This race will be a black one on the Mini Transat history and shows that the organization is not at the level of the race.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: "En Solitaire"*



PCP said:


> En Solitaire - Bande-annonce officielle _by EnSolitaire_
> 
> That's a movie and it seems to be an interesting one:
> 
> *Yann Madec, long-time best mate of Frank Drevil, the star skipper of Global System Insurance, sees his dream come true when he replaces the injured Frank at the last minute for the start of the Vendée Globe. Nine days into the race and leading, Yann is forced to stop in Cape Verde to repair his broken center-board. Back in the race, Yann discovers a stowaway on board, a Senegalese teenager named Moussa. Faced with the risk of disqualification because of Moussa's presence, Yann hesitates&#8230; Their encounter leads to the most unforgettable round-the-world race ever.*
> 
> En solitaire (2013) directed by Christophe Offenstein ? Film + cast ? Letterboxd


So much of the storyline is absurd but I never get tired of seeing IMOCA 60 footage, particularly when it's well produced. If you look at the vast majority of commercial films that feature sailing, the underlying assumption of the producers is that the sailing part will never be enough to interest a mass audience, so you must have some additional plot - often ridiculous - that typically has nothing to do with sailing.

In the case of "En Solitaire", it is highly unlikely that a top IMOCA program would substitute in a replacement skipper for their "star" at the last minute - the training and preparation that go into the Vendee make it nearly impossible to simply drop one skipper into another skipper's boat - unless you were substituting MichDes for just about anyone.  And even then, Le Professeur would probably not do such a thing precisely because he is such a professional and would fully comprehend the problems of such an action.

Similarly, there are quite a few cases of Vendee skippers having "guests" aboard their boats, often for long stretches of the race. Obviously not "stowaways" like in "En Solitaire" but fellow sailors rescued from their boats in the Southern Ocean and carried all the way to the finish. Indeed, the movie that really needs to be made is of Peter Goss' miraculous rescue of Raphael Dinelli from his overturned boat in a full gale. I confess that reading Goss' account in his book brought tears to my eyes. Goss carried Dinelli the rest of the way around the world to finish the race. (Note: These days Dinelli is roaring about the world setting records in his "Maserati", a very beautiful boat.)

Now, I'm hoping the new Robert Redford film might be different, in this respect, because it focuses precisely on one of the biggest fears / risks facing offshore sailors - collision at sea and having to abandon your boat. From what I've read, the film focuses on the psychology and emotions of that experience, which sounds like a good thing.

Anyway, I will probably rent "En Solitaire" on DVD just for the sailing footage, and maybe the story will not be too laughable. And hopefully lots of real sailors got some employment during the filming.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> As I was expecting on the Mini Transat the 5 leading boats made it safely to Sada. The situation of neutralizing the race without a classification seems unacceptable to me. As in other races could be neutralized at a certain arbitrary point (as it happened recently with a Open60 race) and the classifications and times being the ones there. To the ones that did not manage to pass there at a given hour would be given the same time of the last that had made it.
> 
> They had at least 12 hours to find a solution. This race will be a black one on the Mini Transat history and shows that the organization is not at the level of the race.


An even better example is the Tour de France (bicycle version) where entire groups of riders are given the same time when they finish "overlapped" in the peloton or if there is a serious collision near the finish which impedes other riders' progress.

So you are right, I think, that this was not well-conceived or executed by the MT authorities. However, they have the opportunity to fix things if they can find a way to get Craig Horsefield and several other competitors who had to abandon back in the race. Admittedly, I've heard that Craig was at fault in his collision, but I'd still like to see him back in the race, perhaps with a time penalty for the accident.

Also, one would hope they will learn valuable lessons for future races from this experience. And not just the MT but other major offshore events. I say this because I fear that these kinds of weather patterns may become the "new normal" (as we say in NA) and necessitate adjustments to how races have been run historically. Thinking particularly of the Sydney-Hobart Race (among others), which is already a dangerous event, even without changing weather patterns.


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

I hope this one will start better. They will also start with strong winds and even if the boats are bigger and safer I would not like to go on a Multi 50 trimaran against 35/40K winds not even as a passenger.

The race will start in two days and it is a really one of the biggest with almost all the best solo racers there and the fastest solo or short crew racing boats (duo race).

Some movies to see what I am talking about:





Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 - 20ème anniversaire _by TransatJacquesVabre_





Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 - Présentation MOD 70 _by TransatJacquesVabre_





Présentation IMOCA - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 _by TransatJacquesVabre_





Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 - Présentation Multi 50 _by TransatJacquesVabre_





Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 - Présentation Class40 _by TransatJacquesVabre_





ENG - MOD 70 : A duel on the Atlantic - Transat... _by TransatJacquesVabre_





ENG - IMOCA Monohull Class - Transat Jacques... _by TransatJacquesVabre_


----------



## robelz

Do you know which boat it is in en solitaire?


----------



## PCP

*Re: "En Solitaire"*



MrPelicano said:


> ... Obviously not "stowaways" like in "En Solitaire" but fellow sailors rescued from their boats in the Southern Ocean and carried all the way to the finish. Indeed, the movie that really needs to be made is of Peter Goss' miraculous rescue of Raphael Dinelli from his overturned boat in a full gale. I confess that reading Goss' account in his book brought tears to my eyes. Goss carried Dinelli the rest of the way around the world to finish the race. (Note: These days Dinelli is roaring about the world setting records in his "Maserati", a very beautiful boat.)
> 
> Now, I'm hoping the new Robert Redford film might be different, in this respect, because it focuses precisely on one of the biggest fears / risks facing offshore sailors - collision at sea and having to abandon your boat. From what I've read, the film focuses on the psychology and emotions of that experience, which sounds like a good thing.
> 
> Anyway, I will probably rent "En Solitaire" on DVD just for the sailing footage, and maybe the story will not be too laughable. And hopefully lots of real sailors got some employment during the filming.


I guess that in what regards sailing scenes the En Solitaire will be a lot better. They have counsel of some of the best solo sailors and as French audience that will see the movie is probably a lot more knowledgeable than the one that will see the American movie (that looks for higher audiences). If not well done it will come rapidly a laughing stock.

I agree with you about Dinnelli rescue by Goss. That was one of the more epic moments of all racing story. It should be put on movie no doubt. I had already posted about it on this thread.

Regarding Maserati you are not confusing Dinelli with Soldini?

Team | Soldini






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Do you know which boat it is in en solitaire?


The boat is Initiatives-Cœur used by Tanguy de Lamotte on the last Vendee. It had already a lot of names since it is an old boat that has already completed three Vendees (circumnavigations) and many other races. It is a 1998 design by Marc Lombard.

http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/skipper/51/tanguy-de-lamotte.html#boat











Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: "En Solitaire"*



PCP said:


> Regarding Maserati you are not confusing Dinelli with Soldini?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, I am confusing them. The names of those professional Italian sailors all sound the same to me.

Except that Dinelli is French, not Italian. 

Doesn't look like he's been doing any serious sailing lately, but is doing a lot of work in the area of sustainable power generation, which is a good thing.

Perhaps I should write a screenplay on the Goss-Dinelli rescue and see if I can find a producer?

Another great story is the superb battle between MichDes and Ellen MacArthur in the 2001 Vendee Globe. Might find a good market among younger women, particularly as MichDes is pretty good looking.


----------



## PCP

*Re: "En Solitaire"*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> 
> Perhaps I should write a screenplay on the Goss-Dinelli rescue and see if I can find a producer?
> 
> ..


That should be interesting and it does not seem difficult to me...I mean it would not be a very expensive movie and it has the potential to be a great movie. A dramatic one with great sailing images That's a great sailing story.

I am afraid that is a better project to be presented in UK or France where that story is well know and almost a legend.

If this movie is a success It is very probable that someone advances with that proposal.

Are you serious? You work with that stuff, I mean screenplays?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat - movies*

Since we have not the movie of the finish...because there was not a finish, some movies with some of the guys that are in the race during the training period and even a start, not a general one but a particular one.

























En route vers la minitransat ! _by benoitmarie_navigateur_





Mini Transat 2013 - Julien Pulvé N°802 - Teaser _by julienpulve_





entrainements fevrier mini 667 _by benoitmarie_navigateur_


----------



## robelz

Viko Yachts: Hanseboot-Premiere VIII: Viko 30S - Yachten + Jollen | YACHT.DE

Shares the hull with the Comet 31s. Interesting...


----------



## PCP

*Viko 30s*



robelz said:


> Viko Yachts: Hanseboot-Premiere VIII: Viko 30S - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
> 
> Shares the hull with the Comet 31s. Interesting...


Very interesting and for 30 000 euros already with 19% of VAT

I don't think it is the same hull but a similar hull designed by Sergio Lupoli, that is also the designer of the Comet 31s. Transoms and hull design on that area are slightly different.














Regards Paulo


----------



## robelz

30000 is the trade fair price. And it is without engine (9000€)...


----------



## PCP

*ViKo 30 / Comet 31s*

Regarding that statement by yacht.de that those two hulls were the same it seems that someone has not done its home work and probably took for granted something that the guys from Viko had said.

In fact the two hulls are designed by the same NA (Sergio Lupoli) and share some common points as it is natural but the dimensions and the transom are different. Not the same hull at all.



The Viko 30 dimensions on the version with the fixed keel:

Hull lenght -......... 9,74 m
Max beam -.........3,28 m
Displacements -...2750 kg
Draft-................1,75 m
Ballast weight -...900 kg
Engine/ Type -....Sail Drive 15 HP /Outboard 15 HP
Mainsail -............25,00 m2
Genoa -.............. 21,50 m2
Gennaker -..........75m2



the Comet 31s dimensions:

Hull lenght -.........9,27 m
Max beam -.........3,48 m
Displacements -...3900 kg
Draft-................1,90 m
Ballast weight -...1090 kg
Engine/ Type -....Sail Drive 20 Hp
Mainsail -............32,80 m²
Genoa -.............. 24,00 m²
Gennaker -..........85 m2

The Comet is bigger, heavier, carries more sail and can be matriculated as an A boat while the Viko the max category it can reach is B. The Comet is also more expensive and has a better quality interior.

Regarding that difference in transom / hull design that was the first difference I saw clearly, take a look:





Different but at least as interesting, specially considering the lower price:





I would not expect the same quality in both boats but for someone that is interested in a 30ft and has not the money for a Comet 31s or a Elan 320, it deserves certainly a better look. The difference in price, even considering the 9000 euros difference for a boat with sail drive, is quite considerable.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*X6 from X-yachts.*

WOW!!!!! It looks almost Italian



"*The X6 represents the first in a new development of performance cruising yachts. The twin-rudder X6 will utilise the same hi-tech construction techniques as X-Yachts adopted to build their latest generation Xp racer-cruisers, including vacuum infused epoxy with localised carbon for strength, stiffness and stability. It also comes from the same drawing-board as the award-winning Xcruising family.

Combining the best elements of these two world-beating ranges will be an all-new, luxurious and impressively fast collection of performance cruising yachts for state of the art blue-water sailing.*"

The New X6


----------



## PCP

*Mini transat*

I had already showed my disagreement of how the race committee had acted in regarding the cancellation of the first leg of the race. The way they have made it just makes my disagreement stronger

From Giancarlo Pedote site (translated):

* "The stage Douaradnenez - Sada , was not only canceled : it is was if it never existed. This is for the organization , not for the skippers who have made it .

The race committee has decided to tear up the declarations of race retirement and allow all members to bring their boats to land to Sada (which will be the next port of departure) and restart as if nothing had happened .

But something happened :

Approx 400 miles crossing the Bay of Biscay in rough seas , the weather conditions were not easy but we made it with the knife between the teeth. &#8230;a minimum of 60 hours of exhausting sailing, for skippers and boats.
...
Giancarlo comments on the situation. " Entering the Gulf of Sada looking for the finish line I saw a Inflatable of about 3 meters that come to me with the engine roaring and told me that the race was canceled . Only then I realized that this was the content of the message I had received on the VHF (with bad reception) when I was about 4 miles from the location of the finish line.

I had completed 99% of the race .

It is useless to hide how strong I was disappointed. In any case, I decided not to make a protest to the race committee&#8230;. .

My advantage of 4 hours over the second and the rest of the fleet has to be considered as an aperitif offered to all by Giancarlo Pedote and its ITA 747 . "*

Mini Transat. Si rinizia da capo. E i vantaggi conquistati si trasformano in svantaggi.

At least Giancarlo has a sense of humor. In his situation I would have been seriously pissed and I would have filled that protest!!!! It is not fair neither sportive.


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Elan 320*



PCP said:


> ... I don't see a tiller version and that's a shame. Maybe they will offer one in the future if the demand justifies it.


Twin steering wheels on a 32 footer ?! :laugher!

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Re: Elan 320*



EricKLYC said:


> Twin steering wheels on a 32 footer ?! :laugher!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Don't laugh because you are laughing about a lot of sailors

The truth is that they offer the boat with a tiller (that I am sure the designer prefers) but they put all the emphasis on the two wheels because they know it is what most sailors that will buy the boat will want....you know, two wheels like on the big ones...or maybe not.... I don't know much about racing, maybe the two wheels leave more space for maneuver with a big crew? I say this because the new A35 has also a version with two wheels and the guys that buy that boat don't mind much with pretending they have a big boat.

Someone has a take on this or know about possible advantages for crewed racing?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

And this Autumn will be a crappy one . Bad weather after bad weather. Now it is the guys from the big transat that say that there is a possibility to having to postpone the race.

Yes, I guess that if going upwind with 50k should be a drag with the racing mono-hulls, with multihulls it would even be worst.

If not plain dangerous I would say that I would like to see that: that's the only way the Open 60's can beat the Multi 50. The Mod 70 will be faster anyway...if they survive and with really bad weather I would not trust much those boats, not racing anyway. Tricky speedsters

Maybe they let go the monohulls and put the multihulls in wait?

*"Because of the weather conditions forecast for Sunday night into Monday, what would be the first night at sea for the Transat Jacques Vabre monohull fleet, a decision as to whether to delay the start or not will be announced later on Saturday morning, 2nd November.

At the skipper's briefing this morning, the organisers of the Transat Jacques Vabre told the assembled crews of their decision.
In fact part of the reason for the uncertainty is that the three main weather models which were presented by Météo France's Richard Sylvani, Arpeggio, GFS and CEP, do not concur on the timing and exact track of the Atlantic low pressure which is due to pass up the Channel. If it tracks close to the channel as some models suggest then winds with be average 35kts, gusting to 50kts but if it tracks further to the north then winds will be a more manageable 20kts.

And so the organisers of this 11th Transat Jacques Vabre have chosen to wait until the next update of the weather models and decide after tonight, and so the start times and dates for the monohulls will be announced Saturday morning as will decisions about the Mulihulls' prologue and the timing of the starts for the Multi 50's and MOD70's."*

Start Decisions Saturday | Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 : Le Havre - Itajai | Novembre 2013 | Take to the seas and act for the planet


----------



## NCC320

Paulo

A good many of the new boats (cruisers) that you have featured, and all of he racing boats, have wide sterns. From what I have read, wide stern boats tend to be hard to control in following seas, and therefore are to be avoided for cruising. My own boat carries a wide stern, and while I am a inshore sailor, steering downwind in any kind of chop keeps the helmsman busy on the wheel to hold the desired course. I could see that this could be very tiresome in significant seas. 

Could you or perhaps Bob Perry comment on this. How do the new European boats and racers deal with wide sterns and good downwind tracking/conrol?


----------



## PCP

NCC320 said:


> Paulo
> 
> A good many of the new boats (cruisers) that you have featured, and all of he racing boats, have wide sterns. From what I have read, wide stern boats tend to be hard to control in following seas, and therefore are to be avoided for cruising. My own boat carries a wide stern, and while I am a inshore sailor, steering downwind in any kind of chop keeps the helmsman busy on the wheel to hold the desired course. I could see that this could be very tiresome in significant seas.
> 
> Could you or perhaps Bob Perry comment on this. How do the new European boats and racers deal with wide sterns and good downwind tracking/conrol?


No, not all race boat that I posted have wide sterns. Beamy and wide in what regards racing is typical of solo racers and they are like that to be easier to sail, especially downwind, following seas or not.

That does not mean that one of these if not well designed would not have problem with following seas but one of the reasons they are beamy and with big transoms is to give them precisely more stability and less roll downwind, to make them easier to sail and control by a solo sailor or even on autopilot.

Regarding other fast boats downwind but needing a crew to go fast, these ones are like those bicycles for kids with two small auxiliary wheels. They (the hull/transom) prevent the boat to heel much to either side and keeps the roll to a minimum giving also more power to the boat (more hull form stability) to a cost of some loss in pointing ability and performance in very light winds.

Beamy ones with big transoms work better with two rudders but that has not to do so much with sailing downwind but more with sailing upwind even if I believe that the control downwind is also bettered.

To understand better what you say tell me what boat do you sail?

Bob, please give it a shot

Eric please, give it a help here, does your boat have less directional stability with following seas than more classical boat you have sailed? Any problem in that area? How does your boat compare in what regards that?

(for the ones that don't know Eric owns a performance cruiser directly related with solo 40class racers, same hull and all. You cannot find more beamy or bigger transom among 40ft cruising boats)

Regards

Paulo


----------



## NCC320

Paulo,


It is a Catalina 320. For my purposes, it is very good and I am happy with it. The water I sail in is shallow, and in a wind, we'll get a nasty chop. Either, downwind or a quartering wind, one has to pay a fair amount of attention to the steering. Not a problem with how I use the boat, but if the seas were large and one had to steer for long hours, it could get tiresome, I suspect. The question was one in general for wide stern boats, not specifically as regards to my own boat. The trend seems to be towards wide stern boats as comparied with eariler designs. For coastal boats, this gives more interior room, but my perception, from articles I have read and comments of various boaters, the wide stern is not favored for off shore cruising. True or not? And why? Maybe it's just an old wive's tale and not true for modern designs.


----------



## PCP

*Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.*



NCC320 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> It is a Catalina 320. For my purposes, it is very good and I am happy with it. The water I sail in is shallow, and in a wind, we'll get a nasty chop. Either, downwind or a quartering wind, one has to pay a fair amount of attention to the steering. Not a problem with how I use the boat, but if the seas were large and one had to steer for long hours, it could get tiresome, I suspect. The question was one in general for wide stern boats, not specifically as regards to my own boat. The trend seems to be towards wide stern boats as comparied with eariler designs. For coastal boats, this gives more interior room, but my perception, from articles I have read and comments of various boaters, the wide stern is not favored for off shore cruising. True or not? And why? Maybe it's just an old wive's tale and not true for modern designs.


All generalizations are dangerous and a boat being beamy and with the beam pulled back is only one of the many elements in a boat design "composition" but I can tell you for sure that the reason why the Open solo race boats are beamy and have big transom is not to have more interior room and also that those boats are not designed for inshore racing but to deep offshore racing.

This should put a end to that non sense in what regards that story about beamy boats with wide stern not to be suitable for offshore sailing, but sailors, specially American ones, are very traditional and are very reactive to any change, so the story goes on at least in America because in Europe nobody says that anymore for a long time. Even the British, the more conservative of all Europeans, have finished already with that nonsense and big and very expensive bluewater boats like the British Oyster, one of the best offshore cruising sailboat, are also designed along the same principle.

The reason because modern cruisers are based more and more on open boats has to do with the fact that this is the hull shape that if well designed can provide more easy boats to sail (that's why it used for solo racers) specially downwind. It provides also for powerful boats and therefore fast boats. They are optimized for downwind sailing being the weakest point upwind sailing with waves, a thing that most cruisers don't do

They also sail with little heel, providing a very stable platform. That is very convenient and it is one of the reasons that makes them easy to sail. They also offer a big interior space and that is even more convenient, but that comes as a big bonus and it is not why they are that beamy in first place.

Regarding bluewater sailing, if you want to travel the wrong side, against the winds, this type of hull is far from indicated but if you want to travel along the trade winds (that is what almost all do) then this is the kind of hull that if well designed make it easier, namely in what regards using autopilot.

Now, about why you have sometimes steering problems in your boat and have difficulty in some occasions to have directional stability, maybe Bob can say why. I cannot help you with that.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> Yes Anders, but the movie is hosted by the magazine on you tube :
> 
> Dragonfly 32 Supreme - YouTube
> 
> When I click on the video (on the magazine) it appears a message saying that it is blocked due to lack copyright.
> 
> Guys, I am the only one that cannot see that video? I doubt it.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The videos they link to are old videos made the summer before. Have been on the tube for a long time. During the test only photos where shot. Read through the test but basically nothing new. Impressed by trouble free sailing in 12-18 knots. That by the way was a big IF for me. Why move at 18 knots when it feels like 10 knots wit my Opium. It does come with some draw backs.

Quality and second hand value also impressed. Hi load on main sheet traveller a draw back.

Price qouted wrong as usual. Normal set up price close to SEK3 000 000 (appr €330 000).

Anders


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: X6 from X-yachts.*



PCP said:


> WOW!!!!! It looks almost Italian
> 
> 
> 
> "*The X6 represents the first in a new development of performance cruising yachts. The twin-rudder X6 will utilise the same hi-tech construction techniques as X-Yachts adopted to build their latest generation Xp racer-cruisers, including vacuum infused epoxy with localised carbon for strength, stiffness and stability. It also comes from the same drawing-board as the award-winning Xcruising family.
> 
> Combining the best elements of these two world-beating ranges will be an all-new, luxurious and impressively fast collection of performance cruising yachts for state of the art blue-water sailing.*"
> 
> The New X6


Like a bigger Oceanis 38 

Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: X6 from X-yachts.*



JAndersB said:


> Like a bigger Oceanis 38
> 
> Anders


Only if you mean the arch. The hull does not belong to the same family, as the others on the X yacht series. I did not say Italian by accident, it looks like in the Italian tradition in what regards fast hulls.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

It seems they have decided to postpone the race one day due to the bad weather. At least it is not a big postponement. The start will begin in about one day and 2 hours. Last night they had work taking care of the boats at the marina....gusting 50k





BRE - Briefing tempo - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 _por TransatJacquesVabre_

They all know they will face terrible seas and winds, particularly on the way out of the British channel to the Biscay.

This way the transat will be a looong one because they go for Itajai, on the South of Brazil: 5400 nm on a transat....it is really a big one

I wish all the best to all of them. It is going to be a though race and the conditions are set for an epic race. Good luck to all.





ENG - 5,400 miles to Itajai - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

These are some of the guys and girls that will be out racing in the stormy weather:





Présentation des skippers - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.*



PCP said:


> All generalizations are dangerous and a boat being beamy and with the beam pulled back is only one of the many elements in a boat design "composition" but I can tell you for sure that the reason why the Open solo race boats are beamy and have big transom is not to have more interior room and also that those boats are not designed for inshore racing but to deep offshore racing.
> 
> ...
> 
> The reason because modern cruisers are based more and more on open boats has to do with the fact that this is the hull shape that if well designed can provide more easy boats to sail (that's why it used for solo racers) specially downwind. It provides also for powerful boats and therefore fast boats. They are optimized for downwind sailing being the weakest point upwind sailing with waves, a thing that most cruisers don't do
> 
> ...
> 
> Regarding bluewater sailing, if you want to travel the wrong side, against the winds, this type of hull is far from indicated but if you want to travel along the trade winds (that is what almost all do) then this is the kind of hull that if well designed make it easier, namely in what regards using autopilot.


No doubt about that: the extremely wide and aft beam of the Pogo gives excellent control downwind, especially in waves. 
Much better than e.g. the IOR typed Dehler 39 we sailed extensively before (less beam positioned much more forward, narrow transom).

I fully agree with Paulo that this firstly has to do with the enormous form stability of the Pogo, very efficient to prevent rolling. 
The Dehler was quite a roller and rolling movements cause a lateral imbalance between the center of effort (sail) and the center of resistance (hull), generating a rotating couple of forces that constantly must be compensated at the wheel. These rudder movements even reinforce this imbalance and that's why inexperienced helmsmen can induce a broach or a gybe by overcompensating at the wheel.

I also agree the twin rudders are less important downwind but essential upwind, because when heeled even a very deep single rudder would soon be lifted out of the water.

If the boat is also sufficiently light to be able to surf down the waves, you sail at around the same speed so the transom doesn't get hit by the waves and you and encounter much less waves which makes it easier and more comfortable. In good conditions (especially long, oceanic waves) you can even overtake them .

Of course all this comes with a price: less pointing ability and an uncomfortable behavior sailing upwind against seas, because of the lack of inertia and wave drag (I can't find back your excellent earlier post about this, Paulo ). 
But of course "gentlemen do not sail upwind"&#8230; :laugher.


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: X6 from X-yachts.*



PCP said:


> Only if you mean the arch. The hull does not belong to the same family, as the others on the X yacht series. I did not say Italian by accident, it looks like in the Italian tradition in what regards fast hulls.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


No mainsail traveler&#8230;

Cf. an earlier discussion on this thread: I don't like that at all. It only works when a very powerful downhoal is provided, which is seldom the case because of the enormous forces this generates on the boom.

This is also one of the reasons I prefer Paulo's Comet 41 above the new model: his traveler is longer, which gives a much better upwind control of the power and shape of the main.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.*



EricKLYC said:


> No doubt about that: the extremely wide and aft beam of the Pogo gives excellent control downwind, especially in waves.
> Much better than e.g. the IOR typed Dehler 39 we sailed extensively before (less beam positioned much more forward, narrow transom).....The Dehler was quite a roller and rolling movements cause a lateral imbalance between the center of effort (sail) and the center of resistance (hull), generating a rotating couple of forces that constantly must be compensated at the wheel. These rudder movements even reinforce this imbalance and that's why inexperienced helmsmen can induce a broach or a gybe by overcompensating at the wheel.
> ....


You give the impression that the Dehler 39 (a recent design, the previous model regarding Dehler 41) is a bad boat

Well it isn't, it is even today a very good performer even racing. It is not designed for IOR racing (I guess you don't mean that) but for IMS racing, the ratting that perfected give today's ORC. About the Dehler 39 some opinions:

A Rollicking Good Ride
"..Now comes the racy Dehler 39. Designed to the IMS rule by Judel/Vrolijk (a firm known for its Admiral's Cup successes), the 39s occupy the performance end of the cruiser/racer continuum. But her cherry interior and separate shower stall won't let you forget that she's built for comfort."

Cruising World, by Tim Murphy

Go-Faster cruiser

"..The Dehler 39 is a fast, responsive, classy package"

SAIL, by Tom Linskeyn and Bill Springer

Style and performance in a highly engineered racer-cruiser

"..We got onto open water, and the moderate northeaster started kicking up a chop on top of some residual swells from the previous day.

The Dehler didn't mind at all. It bit into the waves and powered through, holding its speed and showing no tendency to pound upwind. When we took the boat through a series of tacks, the Dehler came through the eye of the wind cleanly and was very forgiving on the occasion that I timed things perfectly to stick the boat's nose into a particularly sharp wave..
All in all, everything about the Dehler says it is a boat both designed and constructed to perform"

SAILING, by Adam Cort

This is not mean to take away anything you said. Obviously because you have owned a Dehler 39 and now own a Pogo 12.50, you are in an ideal position to compare both boats, it is just to give more emphasis to what you are saying:

The Dehler 39 was and still is a great boat, the fact that the Pogo 12.50 performs much better upwind and with following seas show how suited for those conditions those hulls are, when well designed.

An older narrower design would roll even more downwind and will require a good hand at the wheel ion trying and difficult conditions.



EricKLYC said:


> Of course all this comes with a price: less pointing ability and an uncomfortable behavior sailing upwind against seas, because of the lack of inertia and wave drag (I can't find back your excellent earlier post about this, Paulo ).
> But of course "gentlemen do not sail upwind"&#8230; :laugher.


Let me point out that there is another reason for the two rudder setup on very beamy boats with all the beam carried back. Those boats when heeled have an asymmetric water plan and a central only rudder would be way off the center of that plan, while the two rudder system is designed in a way that one of the rudders is right on the middle of that plan when the boat is heeled. That gives to the rudder a much bigger efficiency and allows it to have a much smaller wet surface and therefore less efforts on the rudder and on the wheel.

These designs (by Finot) are very old and I am not sure if twin rudders were used already but they show clearly the problem and why twin rudders are more efficient on these hulls.



















Originally with these designs Finot wanted to show that a beamy boat will have, when heeled, a biger LWL than a similar sized narrow boat. both boats with the same LWL on a not heeled position.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.*



PCP said:


> You give the impression that the Dehler 39 (a recent design, the previous model regarding Dehler 41) is a bad boat
> 
> Well it isn't, it is even today a very good performer even racing. It is not designed for IOR racing (I guess you don't mean that) but for IMS racing, the ratting that perfected give today's ORC.
> 
> ...
> 
> An older narrower design would roll even more downwind and will require a good hand at the wheel ion trying and difficult conditions.


I've been unclear about the Dehler 39 CWS, sorry for that.
The one I'm referring to is indeed a much older version, a Van de Stadt design from the 80's, the cruising version of the Dehler 38 which was then a successful IOR racer (same hull but without the IOR "bumps" to mislead the gauge, with an added stern platform but a very different rig, deck an interior lay-out).

An excellent upwind performer but a challenge to control downwind, especially with the symmetric spinnaker up and following seas.

Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barcosOcasion/4/5/6/1/dehler-39-cws-25168052010119849575449569950455x.jpg

Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barcosOcasion/8/7/2/4/dehler-yachts-dehler-39-cws-05199030111666666857555753534569x.jpg

Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://www.bootstest24.de/uploads/user/jpegs/1248620778_1202_Dehler_39_CWS.jpg

Berst regards,

Eric


----------



## HMoll

*Re: X6 from X-yachts.*



EricKLYC said:


> No mainsail traveler&#8230;
> 
> Cf. an earlier discussion on this thread: I don't like that at all. It only works when a very powerful downhoal is provided, which is seldom the case because of the enormous forces this generates on the boom.
> 
> Eric


By "downhaul" you probably refer to the boom vang. Also does require a much heavier boom section, but I would think this is compatible with the park avenue booms. I do agree it will be one of the most important decisions when choosing a next cruising boat. It's nice for the family to do cockpit-friendly gybes, but I will not sacrifice proper sail trim! One final thought: I wonder if masts keep "moving" back, with high aspect mainsail, shorter booms and self-tacking foresails, maybe travelers will become history, just like backstays in some cases!


----------



## PCP

*Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.*



EricKLYC said:


> I've been unclear about the Dehler 39 CWS, sorry for that.
> The one I'm referring to is indeed a much older version, a Van de Stadt design from the 80's, the cruising version of the Dehler 38 which was then a successful IOR racer (same hull but without the IOR "bumps" to mislead the gauge, with an added stern platform but a very different rig, deck an interior lay-out).
> 
> An excellent upwind performer but a challenge to control downwind, especially with the symmetric spinnaker up and following seas.
> 
> Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barcosOcasion/4/5/6/1/dehler-39-cws-25168052010119849575449569950455x.jpg
> 
> Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barcosOcasion/8/7/2/4/dehler-yachts-dehler-39-cws-05199030111666666857555753534569x.jpg
> 
> Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://www.bootstest24.de/uploads/user/jpegs/1248620778_1202_Dehler_39_CWS.jpg
> 
> Berst regards,
> 
> Eric


My bad, anyway a very good cruiser for its time but a much older design from Van de Stadt that started do be produced in 1988. Essentially a typical boat from the early 90's and curiously the type of boats that most on this forum associates with a good bluewater boat:






You are right that is an IOR boat with those small transoms and small cockpits, even if this is one that is moderate in what regards extreme IOR examples.

Here we have the Dehler 39 is a Judel/Vrolijk design from 1996 and that had a long life being only substituted by the current 41.






The boats are quite different in hull design being the 39 a much more beamier boat (3.82m to 3.30m) with the beam pulled much more aft, with a much bigger transom. A faster and better boat, in fact one that I like.



I was a bit surprised that Eric described the 39 as " quite a roller". Certainly the Pogo 12.50 will roll downwind less than a Dehler 39 but the Dehler 39 will roll much less than the 39 CWS.



........

Anders, please give your contribute to this discussion. Having owned a Dehler, a 43cr ( 1995), also a boat also from Vand de Stadt but with a more modern hull than the 39CWS (also a relatively narrow boat for a 43ft) and having now an Opium 39, a boat with a big beam and big stern, a fast cruiser with the hull also directly derived from solo racers, tell us about the difference in what regards sailing downwind and particularly in following seas.



Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*

"From Gijon to Sada, the Ministes are in the queue to go. The little colony has organised itself with typicl good humour and is prepared to wait it out while watching for a favourable weather window.

The experiences of those arriving after this first leg have varied considerably depending on how far to the west they were in in the Bay of Biscay, their reservers and resourcefulness to cope with this unexpected period ashore and their ability to deal with the the speed with which the situation is changing.

It's hard to imagine all the little annoyances caused by the impromptu stop. When the Ministes left for this first stage they had just a few essential changes of clothes for life at sea ... What they had with them was simple and functional, but not necessarily ideally adapted to life ashore. The stopover in Gijon has changed the game, especially for those who were relying on their families to have things organised for them in Lanzarote at the end of this first leg.

As a result it's been necessary to get organised. Working on the principal that we are never stronger than when we work together, the Ministes have taken over (with the generous agreement of the club) the premises of the Club Maritimo de Gijon and have unearthed some local gems. A sort of boarding house with dormitories has been requisitioned for the fleet, competitors have come together in groups working together to purchases underwear, socks and other items of clothing where they needed local language. "

Tuer le (mauvais) temps | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

This race definitively is going to be a strange race. It seemed to me that today they had a good window to sail out but they stayed put. I had a look at the weather and I would say that the conditions today were better than in all next week. Are they going to stay there for a week? This race is funny I guess the racers, mainly the top ones are not finding it so funny.

This is the problem to have more than 80 boats racing in an a Transat and most of all have mixing top racers with amateurs. Sure it is very nice but that creates completely different rhythms and paces. How can they find a window if the + 80 boats will be in 3 or 4 days stretched on a huge area?

Besides what is safe for a top sailor is not safe for a relative inexperienced amateur and they have to take as safety precautions what is safe for the worst sailors, even if the better would not have any problem with the conditions that can be unsafe for the less experienced.

I guess that after this race some things will have to change otherwise this race that is a prestigious one will turn in a folkloric one and not a meaningful sportive event anymore.

Well, at least we have some nice photos here:

2013 MINI TRANSAT START - MINI - 6 - 50 - RACES - EVENTS - OFFSHORE - RACING - Sea and Co, The Marine Photo Library


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: X6 from X-yachts.*



HMoll said:


> One final thought: I wonder if masts keep "moving" back, with high aspect mainsail, shorter booms and self-tacking foresails, maybe travelers will become history, just like backstays in some cases!


I'm not quite sure about that. 
Apart from sail shape (halyard/Cunningham, outhaul, mast bend), mainsail trimming is essentially about controlling the leech (open or closed, more or less twist). A correct leech tension will give power to the sail while maintaining laminar airflow and creating upwash for the foresail. 
That's why the main has tell tales on the leech, while foresails have it on the luff.

The higher the aspect ratio, the longer the leech for a given sail area, the more important a powerful boom vang will be (you're right: downhaul is not the right term, I already made this mistake before but English is only my third language so please excuse me once again). Very low aspect mains such as gaff sails don't even need a vang because the length (weight and lever) of the boom is mostly sufficient to tension the sail.

But since a boom vang is utterly inefficient in creating downward force on a modern rig, I consider a traveler for the main sheet essential for performance cruising, especially upwind. The further aft (and the longer!), the better.
By the way, when sailing upwind in good conditions, you want the boom amidships. This is impossible to achieve without a traveler pulling the sheet on the high side.

On our boat, until a beam reach, the sheet only serves as a (very powerful) vang. Sail power is regulated by the traveler which runs along the whole available beam in the aft cockpit, out of way for easy circulation. With a 6:1 purchase and within immediate reach of the helmsman, such a traveler is extremely efficient and easy to handle.
Further downwind a dedicated line is just taken down from the boom to the toerail and comes back to one of the coach roof winches. This is once again very much more efficient than even the most powerful traditional boom vang that has to work under an almost impossible angle.

Considering self-tacking foresails: the more the mast comes aft, the lower their aspect ratio. Without any ability to change the sheeting angle, these sails become highly inefficient already from a close reach because of excessive twist and spoiling in the upper part of the sail.

So I am indeed quite shocked to see that a yard such as X-Yachts, with even their Xc cruising range designed with good performance in mind, give away an essential feature such as a main traveler.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Atlantic record attempt - Discovery route.*

Spindrift 2 is at it, I mean at the record attempt and has already a 12 hours advantage over the record holder, Cammas and Groupama 3. The giant trimaran, the biggest of them all, is skippered by Yann Guichard and well... Dona Bertarelli and crewed by these guys:

Spindrift Racing | Official website | Maxi Trimaran, MOD70 & Decision 35 ? Team

Some images of this look like spaceship going steady at speed:


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.*



PCP said:


> My bad, anyway a very good cruiser for its time but a much older design from Van de Stadt that started do be produced in 1988. Essentially a typical boat from the early 90's and curiously the type of boats that most on this forum associates with a good bluewater boat:
> 
> ........
> 
> Anders, please give your contribute to this discussion. Having owned a Dehler, a 43cr ( 1995), also a boat also from Vand de Stadt but with a more modern hull than the 39CWS (also a relatively narrow boat for a 43ft) and having now an Opium 39, a boat with a big beam and big stern, a fast cruiser with the hull also directly derived from solo racers, tell us about the difference in what regards sailing downwind and particularly in following seas.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, as I have written earlier I went from a Beneteau Oceanis 40 2007 (new) to a Dehler 43 CWS from 1993 and then 2011 (new) to the current Wauqiez Opium 39. The Dehler 43 CWS is rather similar to the 39 CWS.

I have very mixed experiences from sailing these and other boats before. The Oceanis was overall rather nice but too beamy aft and too little ballast for a single rudder set up.

The Dehler was a very "traditional" performance cruiser with big ballast, rather narrow aft parts and a high rig with good hardware. All this resulted in very high loads on everything but apart from that a very nice boat. We sailed it home from Fehmarn in Germany to Gothenbourg in 32 hours with an avarage speed of 9 knots and that included 6 hours of motoring in the night doing only 6 knots. During the last 6 hours we had 46 knots TWS dead from behind and we had only one reef in the big main and poled out jib doing 11-13 knots all the time. In these conditions the boat was surprisingly stable, probably due to the high speed but compared with the Opium the biggest advantage for the Dehler is in very light winds where the Dehler has a better release aft and less wet surface.

On a beat I find them pretty similar and in more normal downwind sailing wind speed the Opium has a higher average speed and as you said, less rolling. It is nothing you reflect that much over initially but after a while you start noticing 
that everybody is relaxing and behaving as if we would be sailing in sheltered waters with a tws of perhaps 12-14 knots when it is in fact big swell and blowing 20-24 knots. And "stressing" the gennaker with the aft beam and double rudders is less of a problem compared with the earlier boats.

What we initially noted most is the so much lower loads on everything. As you discussed recently regarding hoisting the main with electrical winches, on the Dehler that was definitively a must and the 12mm dyneema haylard was only 6 mm during the last meter. On the Opium, with 2:1 set up my wife easily hoist the smaller but still significant main all the way by hand, only winching the last 20 cm. Low weight demanding lighter gear giving lower weight....

Still, the Dehler was a very nice boat and we mainly sold it due to finding it too big. But the joy of speeding along with the light Opium riding on the aft quarter is nothing you could experience very easily on the Dehler.

Regarding Erics recent note about boom wang I totally agree. On the Opium we mainly use the rather wide traweller for trimming the main and it is a feature I definitively would not be without on a boat. Sailing upwind it is better to switch to small jib on the inner forestay and keep the full main somewhat down the traveller, than keeping 105% genua and reefing main.

Regarding the X6 and comparison with oceanis 38 the X6 also has double rudders,

Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.*



JAndersB said:


> Yes, as I have written earlier I went from a Beneteau Oceanis 40 2007 (new) to a Dehler 43 CWS from 1993 and then 2011 (new) to the current Wauqiez Opium 39. The Dehler 43 CWS is rather similar to the 39 CWS.
> 
> I have very mixed experiences from sailing these and other boats before. The Oceanis was overall rather nice but too beamy aft and too little ballast for a single rudder set up.
> 
> The Dehler was a very "traditional" performance cruiser with big ballast, rather narrow aft parts and a high rig with good hardware. All this resulted in very high loads on everything but apart from that a very nice boat. We sailed it home from Fehmarn in Germany to Gothenbourg in 32 hours with an avarage speed of 9 knots and that included 6 hours of motoring in the night doing only 6 knots. During the last 6 hours we had 46 knots TWS dead from behind and we had only one reef in the big main and poled out jib doing 11-13 knots all the time. In these conditions the boat was surprisingly stable, probably due to the high speed but compared with the Opium the biggest advantage for the Dehler is in very light winds where the Dehler has a better release aft and less wet surface.
> 
> On a beat I find them pretty similar and in more normal downwind sailing wind speed the Opium has a higher average speed and as you said, less rolling. It is nothing you reflect that much over initially but after a while you start noticing
> that everybody is relaxing and behaving as if we would be sailing in sheltered waters with a tws of perhaps 12-14 knots when it is in fact big swell and blowing 20-24 knots. And "stressing" the gennaker with the aft beam and double rudders is less of a problem compared with the earlier boats.
> 
> What we initially noted most is the so much lower loads on everything. As you discussed recently regarding hoisting the main with electrical winches, on the Dehler that was definitively a must and the 12mm dyneema haylard was only 6 mm during the last meter. On the Opium, with 2:1 set up my wife easily hoist the smaller but still significant main all the way by hand, only winching the last 20 cm. Low weight demanding lighter gear giving lower weight....
> 
> Still, the Dehler was a very nice boat and we mainly sold it due to finding it too big. But the joy of speeding along with the light Opium riding on the aft quarter is nothing you could experience very easily on the Dehler.
> 
> Regarding Erics recent note about boom wang I totally agree. On the Opium we mainly use the rather wide traweller for trimming the main and it is a feature I definitively would not be without on a boat. Sailing upwind it is better to switch to small jib on the inner forestay and keep the full main somewhat down the traveller, than keeping 105% genua and reefing main.
> 
> Regarding the X6 and comparison with oceanis 38 the X6 also has double rudders,
> 
> Anders


Thanks for the very informative post. It is very nice to have you and Eric aboard this thread. Regardinf the Hull of the Dehler 39 CWS and 43 CWS even if both are relatively narrow by modern standards, as you can see, they are quite different being the one from the 39 much more influenced by the IOR rule and the 43 a much modern one. Modern means not necessarily beamy I bet that difference has a significant influence in what regards rolling and downwind sailing.



As you and Eric pointed out a well designed boat based on solo racers (beamy and with all the beam brought back) rolls less and give a more easy downwind ride, following seas or not.

That does not mean that a well balanced and designed narrow boat is necessarily a roller and cause difficulties, or needs a full crew to control it going fast downwind. We can see that this narrow Luffe 40.04 goes nicely and fast downwind on autopilot with a remarkable directional stability:






It is just that on one of those light cruising boast derived from solo racers you can fly a lot more sail without losing directional stability and that allows even more speed in full control, even on autopilot.

However, as you had observed in the comparison between the Dehler 43 and the Opium 39 , narrow fast performance cruisers will have a better performance in light winds and if you noticed that the Dehler 43 had a better performance than the Opium in what regards that, on more modern and faster sailboats like the Salona 41 or the Luffe 40.04, that difference will be even bigger.

That has also been showed on that recent big test by Voile magazine where a Pogo 30 had a similar performance of a winner 9.00 in light winds, being the Pogo a much more lighter and sportive cruiser than the winner, with a much better overall sailing performance. Te winner has a much narrower hull, and certainly, as the Pogo, a very well designed hull.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## NCC320

Paulo and others,

Thanks for your discussion of the merits of modern wide beam boats for cruising vs. the more narrow ones in previous years. Based on what you have said and shown, we'll probably see more wide beam cruising boats in the US in the future, as people over here get adjusted more to the concept that a good cruising boat doesn't have to be narrow at the stern. After looking at the information that has been presented, especially on the Opium 39, I believe that the reason that the helm must be attended closely in downwind and quartering wind on my own boat probably has to do most with the nature of the chop that we get in the shallow water, and being inshore, we tend to have considerably less wind than in an offshore situation, resulting in lower downwind speed for the boat. If the boat speed was higher, the rudder and keel would have a more pronounced effect on directional stability, and the helmsman should have less work to do maintaining course.


----------



## JAndersB

NCC320 said:


> Paulo and others,
> 
> Thanks for your discussion of the merits of modern wide beam boats for cruising vs. the more narrow ones in previous years. Based on what you have said and shown, we'll probably see more wide beam cruising boats in the US in the future, as people over here get adjusted more to the concept that a good cruising boat doesn't have to be narrow at the stern. After looking at the information that has been presented, especially on the Opium 39, I believe that the reason that the helm must be attended closely in downwind and quartering wind on my own boat probably has to do most with the nature of the chop that we get in the shallow water, and being inshore, we tend to have considerably less wind than in an offshore situation, resulting in lower downwind speed for the boat. If the boat speed was higher, the rudder and keel would have a more pronounced effect on directional stability, and the helmsman should have less work to do maintaining course.


Yes, speed does give stability. Still there is a difference between the realy purist boats (Erics Pogo 12.50 is a good cruising version of these), and slightly heavier boats with a more "normal" interior, of which the Opium 39 is a exampel, even if it is still pretty light and wide. As Paulo stated before, I also "need" more stuff to be autark up here in the archipelago for longer periods so I am also carrying a lot of extras so crusing speed is not as high as Erics Pogo but still higher than most other boats I encounter.

And even in these more modest speeds and winds there is a difference in rolling compared with narrower boats (aft). But also more on the wind I can leave the boat at autopilot (if I wish even if that is very seldom). Above 90 degrees TWA the boat is still tracking like on rails. Crew falling asleep on wide side decks in 20-22 knots of TWS 

Anders


----------



## PCP

NCC320 said:


> Paulo and others,
> 
> Thanks for your discussion of the merits of modern wide beam boats for cruising vs. the more narrow ones in previous years. Based on what you have said and shown, we'll probably see more wide beam cruising boats in the US in the future, as people over here get adjusted more to the concept that a good cruising boat doesn't have to be narrow at the stern. After looking at the information that has been presented, especially on the Opium 39, I believe that the reason that the helm must be attended closely in downwind and quartering wind on my own boat probably has to do most with the nature of the chop that we get in the shallow water, and being inshore, we tend to have considerably less wind than in an offshore situation, resulting in lower downwind speed for the boat. If the boat speed was higher, the rudder and keel would have a more pronounced effect on directional stability, and the helmsman should have less work to do maintaining course.


Yes, you are already seeing American brands going to beamy boats and bigger sterns and as European boats have a major penetration on the American market you will surely see in the future more beamy cruisers in the States.

Bavaria, Jeanneau, Dufour and Benetau are all doing cruiser models with the hull based on solo race boats and many times the designers they use are the ones that also design those racing boats.

I think you have now a pretty idea of the advantages or disadvantages of those boats in regards cruising but let me point out that the market in Europe in what regards performance cruisers is still dominated (and I think it will continue to be) by narrower boats (I have already explained the advantages).

First, Salona, Elan, Dehler, Arcona, IY, Grand soleil, Comet, X yachts and many others continue to make performance cruisers with a lot less beam than the one used on the main market cruisers using hulls not derived from the solo racers, but more "on the tradition" hulls. Brands like Pogo, Azuree or RM that make performance cruisers based on solo racers hull concept are a small minority.

So in fact you can choose your poison and what is the right compromise for you.

Regarding your boat behavior on those conditions I think you and Anders got it right. You say you have lots of chop and sea motion with not much wind and that's a difficult combination.

To have directional stability on those conditions with waves slightly on the side (following seas) you need power and speed, assuming the boat is well designed.

That has not to do with narrower or beamy hulls but with powerful boats and the Catalina is not a very powerful boat. Do that with a narrow Xp 33 (narrow boat) or with a beamy Pogo 30 or even with an Elan 320 (They may have to fly a geenaker if the wind is less than 9K) and I am sure you will have a lot of directional stability (and speed) with those boats.

Do the same with your boat with 13/15K of wind and I am almost sure that you will not have lack of directional stability and you will even be able to do that on autopilot.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

Another one postponedand as for the mini transat there is a lot that I do not agree with the race committee decisions:

*Manfred Ramspacher ( sporting director ) explained:

"The event sport direction the entire organization has made the decision to postpone the start until a more favorable situation arrives, which could be Thursday."

"Winds 30 to 50 knots which could endanger the skippers and their boats are forecast. We are well aware that classes such as IMOCA could start. But our main concern is the overall safety of the crews."

"Our decision is based on the forecast that we could get away from Le Havre but with difficult conditions and some uncertainly at the ras Blanchard, at Ushant, and some very difficult conditions at the start of the Bay of Biscay.

Our first aim is to ensure we can get maximum number of boats finishing Itajai."

"We must maintain this solidarity in the event. The possibility of starting Wednesday or Thursday not for certain. We think it can happen, but it is still uncertain. The MOD 70 are still programmed to start on Wednesday or Thursday, we will decide in consultation with them.

An IMOCA race might have been able to start, and I can understand their disappointment, but we are a multi-class race. "
*

It does not make sense. They say that this is a multi-class race but they were not to start all at the same time, according with the planned.

If they were not to start at the same time (not even at the same day) if the Open60's have conditions to sail out and race why no start the race for them at the scheduled time and have a start on the other classes when the weather allows safety conditions from them?

Since there is not a honor line to anyone (different starting times) and this is strictly a class race I cannot understand why?

Anyway, it seems to me that the Open60 guys are pissed with the decision ("I can understand their disappointment").

Does anybody understand why they have taken the decision to not let go the Open60's?


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Transat Jaques Fabre*



PCP said:


> Another one postponedand as for the mini transat there is a lot that I do not agree with the race committee decisions:
> 
> *Manfred Ramspacher ( sporting director ) explained:
> 
> "The event sport direction the entire organization has made the decision to postpone the start until a more favorable situation arrives, which could be Thursday."
> 
> "Winds 30 to 50 knots which could endanger the skippers and their boats are forecast. We are well aware that classes such as IMOCA could start. But our main concern is the overall safety of the crews."
> 
> "Our decision is based on the forecast that we could get away from Le Havre but with difficult conditions and some uncertainly at the ras Blanchard, at Ushant, and some very difficult conditions at the start of the Bay of Biscay.
> 
> Our first aim is to ensure we can get maximum number of boats finishing Itajai."
> 
> "We must maintain this solidarity in the event. The possibility of starting Wednesday or Thursday not for certain. We think it can happen, but it is still uncertain. The MOD 70 are still programmed to start on Wednesday or Thursday, we will decide in consultation with them.
> 
> An IMOCA race might have been able to start, and I can understand their disappointment, but we are a multi-class race. "
> *
> 
> It does not make sense. They say that this is a multi-class race but they were not to start all at the same time, according with the planned.
> 
> If they were not to start at the same time (not even at the same day) if the Open60's have conditions to sail out and race why no start the race for them at the scheduled time and have a start on the other classes when the weather allows safety conditions from them?
> 
> Since there is not a honor line to anyone (different starting times) and this is strictly a class race I cannot understand why?
> 
> Anyway, it seems to me that the Open60 guys are pissed with the decision ("I can understand their disappointment").
> 
> Does anybody understand why they have taken the decision to not let go the Open60's?


Well, François Gabart was very diplomatic in his comments about the decision, and pretty much said that the IMOCA boats could have started but that he supported the RC's decision. What they say privately among themselves is another story, of course, but even though they could have gone racing doesn't mean they would have enjoyed themselves if they encountered 40-50 knots on the nose. 

For the multi-hulls, an entirely different story, and nobody wants to see a repeat of several years ago when a good portion of the ORMA fleet was knocked out of the race, with boats breaking rigs and capsizing all over the place. Not good for the sponsors at all.

If this is not a weather fluke, the race organizers might need to start thinking about scheduling these races for a different time of year, although for the TJV it's summer time in Brazil when they arrive, so don't know if arriving in the Brazilian winter is any better. I'm not a meteo-maestro.

Meanwhile, out here in Western Long Island Sound, we had very good breeze for our Fall Laser Regatta yesterday, with a steady 12-18 knots, gusting to 20+ at times. Air temperature was about 9-10C and the water was still relatively warm, though cooler than a couple weeks ago. Despite having a very good finish at the Laser Masters North American Championship, a few weeks ago in Newport, under similar conditions, nothing went right yesterday and I finished very poorly. For some reason my concentration was quite bad and I think wearing the dry suit was not a good decision, as it was more difficult to move about in the boat during tacks and gybes - perhaps one reason I capsized more yesterday than the last year combined. 

Anyway, now I will take a 3 month break from racing Lasers and do some traveling and spending even more time in the gym, getting ready for February midwinters in Florida, then Spring series here, in March. Maybe by then the MT will have started.


----------



## MrPelicano

Paulo - 

About writing a screenplay on the Goss-Dinelli rescue...

No, I am not in that business at all. I work in high tech customer support, mostly involving search engines, for a global multi-national corporation. But I have two degrees in English, and taught writing at university level for a few years before changing careers. So I think I could figure it out using screenwriting software. It would basically just be an adaptation of Goss' book and secondary source material on the subject. Probably have to consult with Goss and Dinelli to develop the personal / emotional / psychological side of things - in that respect, Goss is an interesting character, in that he is not "really" a sailor, per se, but more of an adventurer in the classical sense. That is, a man seeking new challenges and pushing himself to achieve things in the face of adversity. 

What is most striking about his telling of the rescue story is how little emotion was involved on his side. When he was alerted by the RC that Dinelli was in trouble, he did not wrestle with the question of what to do or what risks to himself might be involved. He radioed his response then turned his boat upwind in a howling Southern Ocean gale, and sailed more than 400 miles back the way he came. And that was the easy part. Getting Dinelli off the boat was even more challenging, as he could have easily been lost at sea during the transfer.

I have not read Dinelli's account but I would suspect it is more emotionally charged. Anyway, I will give this some thought, as I've often felt this story deserves to be told on film, very much like the Shackleton Expedition rescue.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Transat Jaques Fabre*



MrPelicano said:


> Well, François Gabart was very diplomatic in his comments about the decision, and pretty much said that the IMOCA boats could have started but that he supported the RC's decision. What they say privately among themselves is another story, of course, but even though they could have gone racing doesn't mean they would have enjoyed themselves if they encountered 40-50 knots on the nose.
> 
> For the multi-hulls, an entirely different story, and nobody wants to see a repeat of several years ago when a good portion of the ORMA fleet was knocked out of the race, with boats breaking rigs and capsizing all over the place. Not good for the sponsors at all.
> 
> ..


The start of the Mod 70 was to happen only in some days, not for security reasons but for the boats to arrive at the same time at the finish line, so it would not be a problem. I never understood when they did wanted to make the start for the M50 multihulls but if the idea was to arrive all at approximately the same time then the Open 60 would have to start first (unless the M50 get really bad weather on the way).

Remains the 40 class racers that due to the circumstances could have started with the Multihulls.

Do you saw the weather? It is not going to be better on the next days, have a look:

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

If they are going to wait for the right conditions for multihulls they risk to wait more than a week.

I hope that the multihulls are safer know then on that famous race in the 90's were several capsized...but then they got 70K and they found out that the hard way that the wing masts that were used, even going bare pools, offered enough surface for the wind to capsize the trimarans with about 70K wind.

One that capsized was Cammas, then a young talented skipper. He become famous because he capsized at the middle of the night and only called for help at 9.00 AM. When the SAR asked him when he had capsized and he told them that was many hours ago, in the night, they could not believe. Cammas explained that everything was well with the boat and with him in what regards safety and that he wanted not wake them up at the middle of the night. Remember it was blowing 70K outside and you can imagine how was the sea.

From that time on Cammas become a favorite sailor of mine and is flair and balls has been on pair with its talent. Now he is without doubt one of the great sailors of our time ...and he is still pretty young ..I bet that much more is going to be accomplished 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: 2013 TJV*

What a privilege if one could be the "third man" on the IMOCA 60 "Macif" with these two gentlemen. 










Somehow it doesn't seem fair to the other IMOCA 60 competitors. A lot of talent in that fleet, but unless Bernard Stamm can get "Cheminées Poujoulat" to perform properly, the only competition I see for "Macif" will come from the wily veterans Vincent Riou and the irrepressible Jean Le Cam, who became one of my favorites in the last Vendée for his marvelously funny video journals. Indeed, he is the one with whom I would love to have dinner just for the pleasure (otherwise I would prefer to dine with MichDes, armed with a digital recorder and a notebook). 

Everything Paulo wrote about Franck Cammas I totally agree with, but I think Michel Desjoyeux is also in that same category of brilliance on the water. François Gabart has been very fortunate to have him as a mentor. We should all be so fortunate. 

Very interested to see how the new Ker-designed Class 40 "Concise 8" performs in its first real test since it was launched. Don't recall if the McConaghy-built boat has been covered in this thread by Paulo already. Definitely a very interesting boat.


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaque Fabre / Bolt 37*

I think you are forgetting Safran and Marc Guillemot, Pascal Bidégorry. I believe that those two are among the ones that can win.

Yes, I posted about the Ker 40class racer. I am also very curious about that boat and to see how Ker will perform in what regards designing solo boats but I would say that I don't expect much: After all the other designers have years of experience with solo racers and the design of a solo or short crew racing boat is very different from the design of a crewed racer. But I do love ker work and designs and secretly hope I am wrong.

Do you know the new "cheap" racer by ker (made in Turkey)? Well cheap but fast











Here is that post about the Ker 40class racer:



PCP said:


> Ker is dominating IRC (in its class) with his One design 40 and not only, just remember that a Sydney 43 also designed by him won the next Sydney Hobart, but one thing is a design for crew racing other a design for solo racing and I am very curious to see how the new solo boat will perform.
> 
> Just to see the differences in design, besides beam, have a look at how the design of the transom is different, not in what regards beam being brought back but on the way the boat sits on the water and allows heeling.
> 
> The IRC racer:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the 40 class solo racer:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The boat first race will be the Transat Jaques Fabre that will start soon.
> 
> By the way, ker is the one that has been working on the keels and rudders of Salonas with obvious results in speed and victories. The first Salona completely designed by Ker will be the 60 and I cannot wait to see the smaller Salonas completely designed by him.


Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Interesting how the Ker 40 and 37 Bolt depart so radically from the current drop of wide transoms/chines on offer everywhere else.. the boat must have an extremely effective keel/RM.

At :45 and 2:37 in the first video you an see also the incredibly tight sheeting angle on the non overlapping headsail.. I'm amazed they can carry that narrow an entry angle.. can the boat truly point that high?? Perhaps only in the flat water shown..?


----------



## JAndersB

A lot of meat on the rail of the Bolt 37....

Anders


----------



## robelz

*Re: Viko 30s*



PCP said:


> Very interesting and for 30 000 euros already with 19% of VAT
> 
> I don't think it is the same hull but a similar hull designed by Sergio Lupoli, that is also the designer of the Comet 31s. Transoms and hull design on that area are slightly different.


You are right: I read in a hurry and interpreted "shares the design with the comet" wrong... But a nice one anyway!


----------



## PCP

*On Design: Hull*



Faster said:


> Interesting how the Ker 40 and 37 Bolt depart so radically from the current drop of wide transoms/chines on offer everywhere else.. the boat must have an extremely effective keel/RM.
> 
> ...


Yes, ker designs are a bit different specially in what regards hull transom design but then it is because he designs mostly top crewed racing boats. When he designs solo boats he does similar to the other designers:

Here you can see some other Ker designs. The last one is a solo boat the others are designed to be sailed by a crew.







Thae Bolt 37 hull can provide the best of two worlds: Great hull form stability, maximization of keel RM, little drag downwind or upwind even on light winds.

The hull is designed to sit on the side of the transom when heeled with not much drag. It is designed to sail with considerable heel upwind developing Max RM when "sited" on its lateral part of the hull. On that position the boat maximizes the big righting moment from the keel (big B/D ratio) and adds it to the big righting moment of the hull provided by that lateral part of the hull that than is almost a flat surface.

The solo boats and cruising boats influenced by them work other way: They are designed to sail with relatively little heel and the hull is designed to provide hull form at low angles of heel (like almost all boats) and to offer a big resistance to big heel angles, stopping the heel at about 20º. This provides a boat easier to sail and will stop rolling downwind.

the Ker hulls need a good crew to stop rolling downwind. The hull does not much to prevent that but offers very little drag in that position, providing the boat is perfectly balanced and that implies a constant trimming/wheel work.

If you look at modern fast designed cruiser-racers you will see that most are trying to achieve boats that can mix the two situations: a boat good for solo racing/sailing and also good for crewed racing/sailing, a compromise that as all compromises is not the perfect solution for any of the cases.

These boats even if, like Ker boats, have almost all beam pulled back, are not beamy boats, not if compared with solo racers or cruisers based on solo racers, but have on the hull design and particularly on the transom some of the characteristics that are typical of solo boats. You can see this clearly on JPK and Archambault cruiser-racers, boats that perform well on both worlds, solo and crewed:







As I have said on a previous post, while the modern crop of mass production tend to have hulls based on solo racers hull design, the performance cruisers tend to be a mix between the two worlds, with a more or less influence of solo racers.

Here you have some modern mass production performance cruisers that are a good example of that compromise, the Dehler 38 and the Elan 320:





and some modern mass production main market cruisers very influenced by solo racer hulls, the Dufour 500 and the Oceanis 41:





Other performance cruisers, or other main market cruisers, have a lesser influence of solo racers hulls and are more "in tradition", meaning that they are more influenced by traditional crewed racers and boats developed by ratting formulas. The truth is that racing boats were always the main influence in what regards design of sailboats, including cruising boats and the different ratting formulas had always a major influence on design.

Today solo racing boats, that have a much more open formula, have introduced a new parallel design direction. Its bigger influence on cruisers has to do with the fact that cruisers are generally solo sailed or have a short crew, like the solo racers and their hulls are more adapted to this situation.

Some modern performance cruisers on the "tradition", Xp 38, Arcona 410:





Some modern main market cruisers "on tradition, the Jeanneau 409 and the XC 50"





All great boats with different compromises, meaning different advantages and disadvantages What is important to each sailor is to understand the advantages and disadvantages of each type of design to be able to chose the right compromise for what he wants from a sailboat. Not all like to sail the same way and in the same conditions.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> A lot of meat on the rail of the Bolt 37....
> 
> Anders


What do you expect from a crewed racing boat? The design is made taking that into consideration.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Bolt 37*

I can't speak for the European market but I don't really understand the current crop of medium-length sport boats like the Bolt 37, the McConaghy 38, the Carkeek 40, the Farr 400, C&C 30 (just announced Mills' design), etc., for the North American market. When I look at what has been going on the past few years, there's an exodus from IRC and high performance sport boats to more benign one-designs like the J/70 and (perhaps) the J/88. Or to nothing at all, since I think overall participation in keel boat events is trending downward.

North America is increasingly looking like a One Design + PHRF world, with a few strong OD classes (J/70, Viper, Melges 20), a few OD classes on life support (J/105, Farr 30, Melges 24), and PHRF, which is designed to protect past investments not encourage new designs or fleet-building. I predict that IRC in North America is just waiting for someone to throw flowers on the grave.

In my pessimism about the NA scene, I can't envision who is going to buy a Bolt 37 or any of the other aforementioned boats. I know Steve Benjamin and others are trying to get a high performance thing going out here on the East Coast, but it's been slow going, largely for economic reasons, I'd imagine. And the West Coast is pretty mucha wasteland. At the most recent Rolex St. Francis Big Boat Regatta, the largest fleet was the Melges 24, and only because the Worlds was in town the following week. There were scarcely any "big boats" to speak of, and the class divisions pointed to the near futility of the whole situation. At least they let multihulls compete, which is progress, I suppose.

All the more reason to continue sailing my Laser and working on my cruising plans for the next few years.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Bolt 37*



MrPelicano said:


> I can't speak for the European market but I don't really understand the current crop of medium-length sport boats like the Bolt 37, the McConaghy 38, the Carkeek 40, the Farr 400, C&C 30 (just announced Mills' design), etc., for the North American market. When I look at what has been going on the past few years, there's an exodus from IRC and high performance sport boats to more benign one-designs like the J/70 and (perhaps) the J/88. Or to nothing at all, since I think overall participation in keel boat events is trending downward.
> 
> North America is increasingly looking like a One Design + PHRF world, with a few strong OD classes (J/70, Viper, Melges 20), a few OD classes on life support (J/105, Farr 30, Melges 24), and PHRF, which is designed to protect past investments not encourage new designs or fleet-building. I predict that IRC in North America is just waiting for someone to throw flowers on the grave.
> 
> In my pessimism about the NA scene, I can't envision who is going to buy a Bolt 37 or any of the other aforementioned boats. I know Steve Benjamin and others are trying to get a high performance thing going out here on the East Coast, but it's been slow going, largely for economic reasons, I'd imagine. And the West Coast is pretty mucha wasteland. At the most recent Rolex St. Francis Big Boat Regatta, the largest fleet was the Melges 24, and only because the Worlds was in town the following week. There were scarcely any "big boats" to speak of, and the class divisions pointed to the near futility of the whole situation. At least they let multihulls compete, which is progress, I suppose.
> 
> All the more reason to continue sailing my Laser and working on my cruising plans for the next few years.


I don't know much about the racing scene but its obvious that in Europe there is a battle between IRC and ORC for supremacy. Some years ago there was the intention to make from the two a single universal ratting but installed interests have been slowing the process. I believe that it will happen someday, sooner or later.

Let me point out that Ker boats have been dominating IRC on the top class on the world scene, including all, except the states were PHRF is still an obstacle to boat development and to fast boats. Both the other two ratting are more accurate by an order of magnitude.

I guess that racing market in US is as low as the market for performance cruisers. Most European brands that make them don't even give themselves the trouble of trying to sell them there and the Asiatic market is a lot more important than the American one : they sell more there.).

Like in the world of motor racing US seems to want to remain isolated and have its particular type of races while the rest of the world is sharing the main championships. Isolationism is never a good thing for development.

I believe that the more important single measure to alter the situation is to reserve PHRF for small club races and abolish that ratting on all medium and main ones, ratting them only in IRC (or ORC). That would allow the faster boats to win them all. But I guess that the Americans like too much to see Westsails 32 and the like winning races. Most Americans have old slow cruising boats ot performance boats fro other eras and they like to see old boats winning. That give them the sensation they have fast boats.

Believe it or not a owner of a Westsail 32, supposedly a very experienced sailor with experience in 150 different sailboats and more than 200 000Nm said this about the Westsail 32 performance in very light winds (3.1K):

*"Does anyone here really believe that a Farr 38, Elan, or Figaro 35 would be able to do a lot better? Myth #1) The W-32 can't point. In fact, under exactly identical conditions, it will point equal to the average 30' racer cruiser. Myth #2) The W-32 can't run. In fact it runs faster than most 36' racer cruisers."*

and fact is that many American sailors believe this kind of crap: After all the W32 was won major races

Regards

Paulo

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> _It's hard to imagine all the little annoyances caused by the impromptu stop. When the Ministes left for this first stage they had just a few essential changes of clothes for life at sea ... What they had with them was simple and functional, but not necessarily ideally adapted to life ashore. The stopover in Gijon has changed the game, especially for those who were relying on their families to have things organised for them in Lanzarote at the end of this first leg._
> 
> ...
> 
> This is the problem to have more than 80 boats racing in an a Transat and most of all have mixing top racers with amateurs. Sure it is very nice but that creates completely different rhythms and paces. How can they find a window if the + 80 boats will be in 3 or 4 days stretched on a huge area?


A decision has been made concerning the Mini Transat, already retarded for several weeks because of the bad weather conditions.
The fleet in Gijón (most) will now sail to Sada (where a few proto's already are) out of competition, an upwind coastal trip of 160 NM in still challenging conditions.

In order to give everybody at least 48 hours of rest afterwards, the new and actual start of the race in Sada is foreseen next week, on November 12th.

Most important: to save time and because the race is now completely out of schedule for Puerto Calero, this stop-over is cancelled (but a technical stop is authorized). A gate next to Lanzarote will provide an intermediate ranking.
This causes serious logistical problems since the skippers already have shipped food & gear to Lanzarote for the second leg of the race, which is of course fundamentally different from the first (cancelled) leg.

So this time the Mini Transat will be disputed in one single leg of 3.600 NM (!), an absolute record. ETA in Point à Pitre: around December 1st.

Sada - Pointe-à-Pitre d'une seule traite | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Bolt 37*



PCP said:


> I don't know much about the racing scene but its obvious that in Europe there is a battle between IRC and ORC for supremacy. Some years ago there was the intention to make from the two a single universal ratting but installed interests have been slowing the process. I believe that it will happen someday, sooner or later.
> 
> Let me point out that Ker boats have been dominating IRC on the top class on the world scene, including all, except the states were PHRF is still an obstacle to boat development and to fast boats. Both the other two ratting are more accurate by an order of magnitude.
> 
> I guess that racing market in US is as low as the market for performance cruisers. Most European brands that make them don't even give themselves the trouble of trying to sell them there and the Asiatic market is a lot more important than the American one : they sell more there.).
> 
> Like in the world of motor racing US seems to want to remain isolated and have its particular type of races while the rest of the world is sharing the main championships. Isolationism is never a good thing for development.
> 
> I believe that the more important single measure to alter the situation is to reserve PHRF for small club races and abolish that ratting on all medium and main ones, ratting them only in IRC (or ORC). That would allow the faster boats to win them all. But I guess that the Americans like too much to see Westsails 32 and the like winning races. Most Americans have old slow cruising boats ot performance boats fro other eras and they like to see old boats winning. That give them the sensation they have fast boats.
> 
> Believe it or not a owner of a Westsail 32, supposedly a very experienced sailor with experience in 150 different sailboats and more than 200 000Nm said this about the Westsail 32 performance in very light winds (3.1K):
> 
> *"Does anyone here really believe that a Farr 38, Elan, or Figaro 35 would be able to do a lot better? Myth #1) The W-32 can't point. In fact, under exactly identical conditions, it will point equal to the average 30' racer cruiser. Myth #2) The W-32 can't run. In fact it runs faster than most 36' racer cruisers."*
> 
> and fact is that many American sailors believe this kind of crap: After all the W32 was won major races
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Well, that would certainly explain the huge W32 class in this year's TJV. 

I think you have captured the American attitude quite well, and all my Canadian friends will agree with you (and even more so when it comes to American disdain for solo racing). The U.S. is primarily the land of "Beer Can" racing, a perfectly fun pasttime that does not require much effort.

Before someone attacks me by listing all the great American racing sailors / programs, let me say: "Well, of course, in a country with > 300M inhabitants you are bound to get a few great, passionate sailors." But my point is that the American racing landscape is ruled by the law of conservation - i.e., make sure that every boat on the water has the potential to win, regardless of how old or how obsolete the design (e.g., IOR).

The net impact of this attitude is that the evolution of yacht design is being driven by European and South American designers, and even great American designers, like Mark Mills, ply their trade overseas. Note: I'm talking about race boats and performance cruisers. There are still great cruising designs being done in the U.S., but the emphasis is not on performance.

Let me also allow two caveats to my rant: Melges and J/Boats. Both use American designers and both have developed and produced extremely successful racing and performance cruising boats. The irony, of course, is that their premier boats of those types are primarily successful in Europe (M24, M32, J/111, J/109), not in the U.S.

Anyway, enough ranting. I am more concerned right now about the decision to have a 1-leg MT race. Is it even possible to carry enough water and food on a 6.50 to make it from Sada to Pointe a Pitre, and still perform properly? Hard to imagine how the boats will be able to sustain a plane in the early days, even with everything stacked in the transom. But, I suppose there is no alternative and certainly better than canceling the event altogether. Oh well...


----------



## PCP

*Global Ocean Race: Best off 2011-2012*

Some days ago we talked about the next edition of this circumnavigation race. Here are some great images of the previous edition:


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> What do you expect from a crewed racing boat? The design is made taking that into consideration.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, I know. But still I somethimes wonder why? To be abel to bring all your friends and then some?

And connecting to the ever ongoing discussion on keeping weight down, on a reach all this weight is not doing much good and easily amounts to more than the weight of all my cruising extras and even a decent interior.

Anders


----------



## robelz

Cristec Hydrogeneratoren - sichere Stromversorgung an Bord -- boot Messe

This hydrogen gives 500W from 7.5kn. This is way more than Watt&Sea delivers....


----------



## JAndersB

robelz said:


> Cristec Hydrogeneratoren - sichere Stromversorgung an Bord -- boot Messe
> 
> This hydrogen gives 500W from 7.5kn. This is way more than Watt&Sea delivers....


Nice. I was waiting for copies. Hope they did not copy the "only on the market"- price too.

Anders


----------



## robelz

JAndersB said:


> Nice. I was waiting for copies. Hope they did not copy the "only on the market"- price too.
> 
> Anders


about 4600€ for the prop but I think plus mounting plus charger unit?


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> Yes, I know. But still I somethimes wonder why? To be abel to bring all your friends and then some?
> 
> And connecting to the ever ongoing discussion on keeping weight down, on a reach all this weight is not doing much good and easily amounts to more than the weight of all my cruising extras and even a decent interior.
> 
> Anders


On a reach that weight will work well, except on very light winds. See it as moving ballast. sitting on the opposite side of heeling they are maintaining the boat more vertical where it sails with less drag and on stronger winds they allow more sail to be carried without reefing. also they can move to the bow (light winds) or to the stern when going downwind with stronger winds giving the boat a perfect balance on any conditions.

They work like water ballast in a boat with several ballast tanks but they change the position of the ballast much more quickly 

In fact I think that the weight and number of crew should be penalized on what regards ratting. that would contribute to better boats, more adapted to cruising.

Things seem to be going in the right direction since a duo crewed boat won the last Fastnet, a first, showing not only that modern boats can work better than the old ones with a short crew but also that the ratting is on the right direction.

However I think that they are one considering ratting benefices to duo sailed boats. If they had on a big boat 3 instead of 15, it would not make any difference. I think that should be reviewed.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Hydrogenerators*



robelz said:


> about 4600€ for the prop but I think plus mounting plus charger unit?


It seems as expensive as the ones in the market already. Probably it has to be expensive but even so it is much better than a generator and in boats that don't use a lot of power and sail a lot it will be perfect.

The way I sail and with top batteries (AGM), a big alternator and a regulator I really don't need it. 45m a day of engine work is enough to keep all systems working and I do that motoring a bit when I leave the anchorage and motoring a bit while searching for a place to anchor and of course there are days where there is not any wind and you have to motor longer.

I don't think that the cost of that system is justifiable for coastal cruising where a maximized electrical charging system will cost about the same price and is more reliable and have other advantages.

Regarding Oceanic sailing, transats or more extensive navigation in a fast boat, it is the right tool and allows all systems working without never turning the engine on. While on shorter daily legs on coastal cruising, typically 5/9 hours you can steer for considerable time and not use the auto-pilot. when you sail non stop 24 hours the auto pilot is used more and the consumption is higher, besides those 45m to charge the batteries regards day sailing, at night the consumption is bigger.

Anyway, most cruisers I know pass much more time on anchorage then while sailing, most passing several days on each anchorage or port. For those the system will not work at all.

If I decide to cross the Atlantic I will mount one of those systems that on fast boats that can sail most of the time are pretty much the thing to have, unless you want to motor without any need to do so.

Heavier cruising boats, that typically have a much bigger tankage, need a lot more wind to make a decent speed and on a crossing they would use a lot more the engine so that system does not make much sense. If you have the tankage and a slower boat, unless someone wants to circumnavigate, the cost of the extra diesel used on one or two transats to charge the batteries will be a lot less than the cost of that system.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

PCP said:


> On a reach that weight will work well, except on very light winds. See it as moving ballast. sitting on the opposite side of heeling they are maintaining the boat more vertical where it sails with less drag and on stronger winds they allow more sail to be carried without reefing. also they can move to the bow (light winds) or to the stern when going downwind with stronger winds giving the boat a perfect balance on any conditions.
> 
> They work like water ballast in a boat with several ballast tanks but they change the position of the ballast much more quickly
> 
> In fact I think that the weight and number of crew should be penalized on what regards ratting. that would contribute to better boats, more adapted to cruising.
> 
> Things seem to be going in the right direction since a duo crewed boat won the last Fastnet, a first, showing not only that modern boats can work better than the old ones with a short crew but also that the ratting is on the right direction.
> 
> However I think that they are one considering ratting benefices to duo sailed boats. If they had on a big boat 3 instead of 15, it would not make any difference. I think that should be reviewed.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Under IRC there are limits to the number of crew a boat can carry for a given rating, though obviously one can exploit this rule by swapping out 12 sumo wrestlers for 12 school children when the wind goes light.

Practically speaking, of course, it is not easy, at the non-professional level, to find suitable - i.e., competent - crew in adequate numbers to play that game.


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> Under IRC there are limits to the number of crew a boat can carry for a given rating, though obviously one can exploit this rule by swapping out 12 sumo wrestlers for 12 school children when the wind goes light.
> 
> Practically speaking, of course, it is not easy, at the non-professional level, to find suitable - i.e., competent - crew in adequate numbers to play that game.


What I mean is that if you race with only three you have not any benefice in rating while obviously you are at disadvantage.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

PCP said:


> What I mean is that if you race with only three you have not any benefice in rating while obviously you are at disadvantage.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Quite true. As a rule, in classes where there is a weight limit, like the Melges 24 or Etchells, everyone tries to be at maximum weight, regardless of what the weather forecast will be. Indeed, there was enough cheating going on - crews would starve and sit in the steam room, just squeeze in under the weight limit, then go binge on food and drink, adding as much as 8-10 kgs - that now many OD classes require weigh-ins several times during the event, mostly for the health of the sailors.

I have lived that experience first-hand - running for miles in the hot Florida sun to make weight for the M24 class at Key West, then heading straight for the Turtle Bar to gorge on food and booze - and it is not much fun and certainly not healthy. In 2009 I bulked up to nearly 90 kgs for an event and my current weight is 72 kgs, so you can imagine how that was. Other people I know took more extreme measures that I won't mention. 

The J/70 and Melges 20 classes have done away with weight limits altogether, so perhaps some sanity is returning to our sport. I know I will never manipulate my weight for racing ever again.


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> On a reach that weight will work well, except on very light winds. See it as moving ballast. sitting on the opposite side of heeling they are maintaining the boat more vertical where it sails with less drag and on stronger winds they allow more sail to be carried without reefing. also they can move to the bow (light winds) or to the stern when going downwind with stronger winds giving the boat a perfect balance on any conditions.
> 
> They work like water ballast in a boat with several ballast tanks but they change the position of the ballast much more quickly
> 
> In fact I think that the weight and number of crew should be penalized on what regards ratting. that would contribute to better boats, more adapted to cruising.
> 
> Things seem to be going in the right direction since a duo crewed boat won the last Fastnet, a first, showing not only that modern boats can work better than the old ones with a short crew but also that the ratting is on the right direction.
> 
> However I think that they are one considering ratting benefices to duo sailed boats. If they had on a big boat 3 instead of 15, it would not make any difference. I think that should be reviewed.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, but much of my crusing ballast is also in the stern (outboard, dingy on davits, bikes and gennakers in aft lazarettes)...

I have had this discussion several times and I am always amused of beeing accused of having so much cruising gear. At the same time our total crew weight is 207 kg and as I said, located in the rear with the extreas, when trying to plane. How much total crew and crusing weight does for example the Bolt 37 have (and many other crewed racing boats)?

Anders


----------



## MrPelicano

JAndersB said:


> Yes, but much of my crusing ballast is also in the stern (outboard, dingy on davits, bikes and gennakers in aft lazarettes)...
> 
> I have had this discussion several times and I am always amused of beeing accused of having so much cruising gear. At the same time our total crew weight is 207 kg and as I said, located in the rear with the extreas, when trying to plane. How much total crew and crusing weight does for example the Bolt 37 have (and many other crewed racing boats)?
> 
> Anders


Anders - Rest assured, nobody will ever cruise a Bolt 37. For boats like that, you'll have a total crew size of no more than 8 people, with the owner typically having the largest weight. Crew will not be allowed to bring anything on the boat except the gear they're wearing and a carbon toothbrush with the handle cut in half. Perhaps a spoon but only if it's part of their rigging tool. All sails not in use will be stacked on the rail, and shifted after each tack, except for windward/leeward buoy racing, where there will only be a second jib and two kites down below and, perhaps, the owner's credit card.


----------



## JAndersB

robelz said:


> about 4600€ for the prop but I think plus mounting plus charger unit?


Still pretty expensive for a rather simple product.

Anders


----------



## JAndersB

MrPelicano said:


> Anders - Rest assured, nobody will ever cruise a Bolt 37. For boats like that, you'll have a total crew size of no more than 8 people, with the owner typically having the largest weight. Crew will not be allowed to bring anything on the boat except the gear they're wearing and a carbon toothbrush with the handle cut in half. Perhaps a spoon but only if it's part of their rigging tool. All sails not in use will be stacked on the rail, and shifted after each tack, except for windward/leeward buoy racing, where there will only be a second jib and two kites down below and, perhaps, the owner's credit card.


Yes, but what is the add up of 8 big crew with owner at 100kg+. Probably close to 700-800 kg. So in fact my boat has some 500-600kg allowance for extras before we are even even 

Anders


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> ... with the owner typically having the largest weight. ....


 I bet bigger the boat bigger the weight, I mean the owner

regards

Paulo


----------



## Rhys05

Hey Paulo, great thread you've got going on here. Do you think you could look at/discuss/recommend some performance/voyaging boats on the smaller end of the scale? For instance, the C&C 99 (32ft) has recently caught my eye, and I wonder what other boats would compete in that size/price/performance segment that may be better for fast voyaging.

Thanks!

Brandon


----------



## PCP

*Voyage small fast boats.*



Rhys05 said:


> Hey Paulo, great thread you've got going on here. Do you think you could look at/discuss/recommend some performance/voyaging boats on the smaller end of the scale? For instance, the C&C 99 (32ft) has recently caught my eye, and I wonder what other boats would compete in that size/price/performance segment that may be better for fast voyaging.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Brandon


Hi, Thanks. We "deal" here mostly with new models and C&C 99 is not made anymore. It looks to me a good design, a fast boat and a good cruising boat. Regarding the quality of building some doubts have been raised about C&C, you can see here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/c-c/52001-c-c-99-owners-opinions-help-pls.html

This is an old thread but in your case I would send personal messages to those guys that owned the boat at that time and ask if they had problems with the it.

I don't now if when you say voyaging it means the same to me. Voyage is not equal to cruising and demands more autonomy and a boat that can be easy on the autopilot. Regarding modern fast performance boats that you can find in America I don't see any. In Europe I guess we would be talking about the new RM 880:

http://www.hdmedia.fr/visite/popup/773-valorisez-vos-biens-generez-des-contacts-bateaux-rm-880-.html





Maybe a good time to buy one at a good price since they are making a new model to replace it, the 890 that is absolutely gorgeous:



Or if you have the money for it the RM 1060 or the older model, the RM 1050 that you can see here are even better for voyaging:






Here you can see the 1060:






Another less comfortable but faster option is the Pogo 30 or the Pogo 10.50.

All these boats have the hull based on solo racing boats and that makes them very stable and easier to sail solo. Particularly the RM is thought with voyage in mind.

Regarding what you can find in the States, better ask on the forum, or then, since you want to voyage, come to Europe, buy a boat and sail it to the US.

Maybe you can have luck and can find one in French Martinique. Pay attentions to the boats that are sold there.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Rhys05

*Re: Voyage small fast boats.*



PCP said:


> Hi, Thanks. We "deal" here mostly with new models and C&C 99 is not made anymore. It looks to me a good design, a fast boat and a good cruising boat. Regarding the quality of building some doubts have been raised about C&C, you can see here:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/c-c/52001-c-c-99-owners-opinions-help-pls.html
> 
> This is an old thread but in your case I would send personal messages to those guys that owned the boat at that time and ask if they had problems with the it.
> 
> I don't now if when you say voyaging it means the same to me. Voyage is not equal to cruising and demands more autonomy and a boat that can be easy on the autopilot. Regarding modern fast performance boats that you can find in America I don't see any. In Europe I guess we would be talking about the new RM 880:
> 
> Or if you have the money for it the RM 1060 or the older model, the RM 1050 that you can see here are even better for voyaging:
> 
> Here you can see the 1060:
> 
> Another less comfortable but faster option is the Pogo 30 or the Pogo 10.50.
> 
> All these boats have the hull based on solo racing boats and that makes them very stable and easier to sail solo. Particularly the RM is thought with voyage in mind.
> 
> Regarding what you can find in the States, better ask on the forum, or then, since you want to voyage, come to Europe, buy a boat and sail it to the US.
> 
> Maybe you can have luck and can find one in French Martinique. Pay attentions to the boats that are sold there.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo-

Yep, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for: European boats that would fit into the same niche as the C&C 99 (which, like you said is no longer in production, I was just using it as as starting place). I'm certain that there are a good number of boats that fit in that envelope that I haven't heard of simply because they aren't on this side of the "pond." As to the "voyaging" vs "cruising" thing, I guess my ideal would be a voyaging boat (your definition) that makes a PASSABLE cruising boat once it is at far-flung destinations. I want to see what is at the smaller end of the spectrum than the ~40+ boats since it is likely that I'll be more likely to get a newer/faster boat in the 30-34 ft range in my price range than the larger ones. Thanks for the suggestions so far, I may have to look at the RM 880/890, those look pretty nice.

Brandon


----------



## Edward3

For those Canadian and Great Lakes sailors

From the Designer Mark Mills and C&C Yachts

The story of C&C Yachts is well known, their list of accomplishments far too long to be repeated here. Beginning in the mid 60's C&C burst upon the international yacht racing scene.

Fast forward to 2013. A new builder with talent, vision, and drive is assembling a new team of designers, engineers, builders and sailors to carry on the C&C story. USWatercraft is the licensed builder for some of the best known production race boats ever. They build the J/22, J/24, J/80, and J/105 under license to J/Boats. USW is also the licensed builder of the Mumm 30 (Farr 30) and Farr 40. They have built everything from the Herreshoff Alerion 26 to a custom Kerr IRC 38.

In the beginning, C&C was known for world class design. Today, nothing less will do. C&C has employed Mark Mills to design our first two new boats. Mills Design is internationally recognized as a leader in performance yacht design. Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - Home. Their portfolio of winning 40 foot IRC & ORC is beyond compare. Their most recent design, the Mini-Maxi 'Alegre' is widely acknowledged as the most modern, competitive boat in that very hot class. Mills employs the same CFD and aero modeling tools on every project he undertakes for C&C.

About the new boats
Redline 41 - This boat was commended for its racing performance and cruising abilities, one of the first of its kind to be able to both cruise and race beautifully. Condor, the very first Redline 41, won overall in the 1972 Southern Ocean Racing Circuit (SORC). 
Today, C& C Yachts recaptures the essence of the original Redline 41: fast, sleek, seaworthy, and performs exquisitely under sail, whether she is racing or cruising. 
The new C&C Redline 41 is the ultimate racer / cruiser. Mark Mills designed the 41 to be fast, seaworthy, and safe. The inherent speed means that she can win races at any level of offshore racing as one has come to expect from a Mills design. The high volume, powerful hull means that the 41 can carry the accommodations and gear associated with a modern performance cruising boat.

C&C 30 One Design! This 30 foot race boat, designed by Mark Mills. The design of the new C&C 30 is pure race boat, complete with a fixed composite sprit to accommodate an asymmetric spinnaker, carbon fiber rig, square top mainsail, Dyneema lifelines, fabricated steel fin keel with lead bulb, top of the line hardware package, and of course, water-tight hatches


----------



## MrPelicano

Edward3 said:


> For those Canadian and Great Lakes sailors
> 
> From the Designer Mark Mills and C&C Yachts
> 
> The story of C&C Yachts is well known, their list of accomplishments far too long to be repeated here. Beginning in the mid 60's C&C burst upon the international yacht racing scene.
> 
> Fast forward to 2013. A new builder with talent, vision, and drive is assembling a new team of designers, engineers, builders and sailors to carry on the C&C story. USWatercraft is the licensed builder for some of the best known production race boats ever. They build the J/22, J/24, J/80, and J/105 under license to J/Boats. USW is also the licensed builder of the Mumm 30 (Farr 30) and Farr 40. They have built everything from the Herreshoff Alerion 26 to a custom Kerr IRC 38.
> 
> In the beginning, C&C was known for world class design. Today, nothing less will do. C&C has employed Mark Mills to design our first two new boats. Mills Design is internationally recognized as a leader in performance yacht design. Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - Home. Their portfolio of winning 40 foot IRC & ORC is beyond compare. Their most recent design, the Mini-Maxi 'Alegre' is widely acknowledged as the most modern, competitive boat in that very hot class. Mills employs the same CFD and aero modeling tools on every project he undertakes for C&C.
> 
> About the new boats
> Redline 41 - This boat was commended for its racing performance and cruising abilities, one of the first of its kind to be able to both cruise and race beautifully. Condor, the very first Redline 41, won overall in the 1972 Southern Ocean Racing Circuit (SORC).
> Today, C& C Yachts recaptures the essence of the original Redline 41: fast, sleek, seaworthy, and performs exquisitely under sail, whether she is racing or cruising.
> The new C&C Redline 41 is the ultimate racer / cruiser. Mark Mills designed the 41 to be fast, seaworthy, and safe. The inherent speed means that she can win races at any level of offshore racing as one has come to expect from a Mills design. The high volume, powerful hull means that the 41 can carry the accommodations and gear associated with a modern performance cruising boat.
> 
> C&C 30 One Design! This 30 foot race boat, designed by Mark Mills. The design of the new C&C 30 is pure race boat, complete with a fixed composite sprit to accommodate an asymmetric spinnaker, carbon fiber rig, square top mainsail, Dyneema lifelines, fabricated steel fin keel with lead bulb, top of the line hardware package, and of course, water-tight hatches


FWIW, here's a picture of the original C&C Redline 41 "Condor":










I was initially very skeptical when I heard about this project, despite the fact that Mills is involved, for whom I have the highest regard. However, now that I learn US Watercraft is involved, I'm more optimistic about things. Given their track record, build quality will not be a problem. And the Mills designs should be bulletproof and fast. So the only question that remains to be answered is whether or not there is a market in North America for these boats. I predict the 41 will have a better chance of success in the current NA market. Can't see the 30 succeeding here, but perhaps in Europe, where great American boats go to be recognized and appreciated. Hope they do very well with both, however, and salvage what's left of the C&C reputation.


----------



## Faster

Link to the new Redline and C&C 30 page.. 30 looks like a melges competitor...

http://www.c-cyachts.com/annapolis.pdf


----------



## PCP

*Re: Voyage small fast boats.*



Rhys05 said:


> Paulo-
> 
> Yep, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for: European boats that would fit into the same niche as the C&C 99 (which, like you said is no longer in production, I was just using it as as starting place). I'm certain that there are a good number of boats that fit in that envelope that I haven't heard of simply because they aren't on this side of the "pond." As to the "voyaging" vs "cruising" thing, I guess my ideal would be a voyaging boat (your definition) that makes a PASSABLE cruising boat once it is at far-flung destinations. I want to see what is at the smaller end of the spectrum than the ~40+ boats since it is likely that I'll be more likely to get a newer/faster boat in the 30-34 ft range in my price range than the larger ones. Thanks for the suggestions so far, I may have to look at the RM 880/890, those look pretty nice.
> 
> Brandon


According to your definition: *" As to the "voyaging" vs "cruising" thing, I guess my ideal would be a voyaging boat (your definition) that makes a PASSABLE cruising boat once it is at far-flung destinations"
* I would say that definitely the boat that I know that fits better is the RM. If you are talking as mostly coastal voyage with some passages the 890 will do but if you are talking about crossing oceans then the 1060 will be much more suited.

They are not passable cruising boats but very good cruising boats and their are boats also thought to voyage, even from the interior when the weather is really nasty (the previous model):






They can even race and not be ridicolous, I mean In Europe, on the US it would be a very fast boat






They have not a dealer in the US only in Maritinique:

RM Yachts : A&C Yacht Brokers, acheter ou vendre votre bateau RM Yachts sur bateaux-antilles.fr

They have been growing so much that maybe they are interested in finding one if you are interested in buying a boat. Talk to them. If I understood you well, this is the boat that you want.

Regarding more similar as the C&C 99, I and on the sizes you want, I would point you to the Elan 320 or 360. I have posted recently about boat boats doe a search on the thread engine and you will find the posts.

I would say that the 320 is not far away from the performance of the C&C99, maybe even better but will be more suited to voyage and solo sailing. The 360 would not only be more suited but faster too. To have more information you can look at boat tests on the Elan 310 and 350. Same hull and approximately the same characteristics, even if the new boats are slightly faster and have a better interior. Lots of information about those two boats on this thread.

Yacht, Sail, Boat, Yachts - ELAN YACHTS | Home

Elan has a dealer in the states:

Sound Yachting

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Redline 41*



Faster said:


> Link to the new Redline and C&C 30 page.. 30 looks like a melges competitor...
> 
> http://www.c-cyachts.com/annapolis.pdf


The Redline 41 looks **** a typical Mills design that means a top performance cruiser with a special incidence in racing. It is a relatively narrow boat (3.68m) with a big draft (2.50m) and a huge B/D ratio (51%) and very light (6400kg). It is a boat designed to sail with a lot of heel (to take advantage of that huge ballast) and it will not going to be a easy boat to sail, specially by a short crew. That huge ballast and the big forces transmitted to the hull demands a very expensive structure. This is going to be an expensive boat.

This means that C&C has turned more to racing than to fast cruising and this boat will not be an alternative to European mass production performance cruisers that will certainly be able to sell in the States at a considerable lesser price. I am thinking in First, Dehler, Salona and Elan.

We know that those brands sell very little in the States (some don't even have dealers there) and that means that the market on that area is very small.

We know for instance that the J122 and J111 are made in France because it makes mores sense to make it there since the majority of those boats are sold in Europe.

To what market points the C&C 41? To the American racing market? By what Pelicano says there are not such a market in the states where IRC is almost in extinction and to sell it to Europe it makes no sense because it will arrive there much more expensively than other Mills designs made in Turkey.

I believe that it will happen to this very nice design the same that had happened to Santa Cruz that had tried about the same thing with the same type of boat. I don't understand why a big name like C&C is making this type of boat a boat with a very narrow market. That is for small brands like Summit or the many small European companies that make high performance cruiser-racers. For a company that was big once and that we all wanted to see big again? I don't think so

*"The new C&C Redline 41 is the ultimate racer / cruiser. Mark Mills designed the 41 to be fast, seaworthy, and safe. The inherent speed means that she can win races at any level of offshore racing as one has come to expect from a Mills design. The high volume, powerful hull means that the 41 can carry the accommodations and gear associated with a modern performance cruising boat. "*

This time, contrary to what was said on the Bluejacket advertise I believe this boat will be a top racer but I doubt very much that it can be a good performance cruiser. In what regards that the Bluejacket 40 it will be a better performance cruiser but not as fast neither a top contender. In the end I believe the boats will cost about the same price.

What is the boat you think it will sell more? Is any of those boats viable as a production boat in the states?

A pity because the Redline 41 is a very nice design:









Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Redline 41*



PCP said:


> The Redline 41 looks **** a typical Mills design that means a top performance cruiser with a special incidence in racing. It is a relatively narrow boat (3.68m) with a big draft (2.50m) and a huge B/D ratio (51%) and very light (6400kg). It is a boat designed to sail with a lot of heel (to take advantage of that huge ballast) and it will not going to be a easy boat to sail, specially by a short crew. That huge ballast and the big forces transmitted to the hull demands a very expensive structure. This is going to be an expensive boat.
> 
> This means that C&C has turned more to racing than to fast cruising and this boat will not be an alternative to European mass production performance cruisers that will certainly be able to sell in the States at a considerable lesser price. I am thinking in First, Dehler, Salona and Elan.
> 
> We know that those brands sell very little in the States (some don't even have dealers there) and that means that the market on that area is very small.
> 
> We know for instance that the J122 and J111 are made in France because it makes mores sense to make it there since the majority of those boats are sold in Europe.
> 
> To what market points the C&C 41? To the American racing market? By what Pelicano says there are not such a market in the states where IRC is almost in extinction and to sell it to Europe it makes no sense because it will arrive there much more expensively than other Mills designs made in Turkey.
> 
> I believe that it will happen to this very nice design the same that had happened to Santa Cruz that had tried about the same thing with the same type of boat. I don't understand why a big name like C&C is making this type of boat a boat with a very narrow market. That is for small brands like Summit or the many small European companies that make high performance cruiser-racers. For a company that was big once and that we all wanted to see big again? I don't think so
> 
> *"The new C&C Redline 41 is the ultimate racer / cruiser. Mark Mills designed the 41 to be fast, seaworthy, and safe. The inherent speed means that she can win races at any level of offshore racing as one has come to expect from a Mills design. The high volume, powerful hull means that the 41 can carry the accommodations and gear associated with a modern performance cruising boat. "*
> 
> This time, contrary to what was said on the Bluejacket advertise I believe this boat will be a top racer but I doubt very much that it can be a good performance cruiser. In what regards that the Bluejacket 40 it will be a better performance cruiser but not as fast neither a top contender. In the end I believe the boats will cost about the same price.
> 
> What is the boat you think it will sell more? Is any of those boats viable as a production boat in the states?
> 
> A pity because the Redline 41 is a very nice design:
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


It is pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that the Redline 41 is the Mills design that the New York Yacht Club should have chosen in 2005 when they, instead, decided to go with the Frers-designed Swan 42 built by Nautor's. Not that this is the design that Mills submitted, but the specifications pretty closely match the NYYC design requirements and, as Paulo suggested,the price point will probably end up being pretty close to what the Swan 42 owners ended up paying (somewhere in the $650K range, IIRC). You decide:










I spent the 2011 and 2012 seasons racing on a Swan 42 and they're nice enough boats, though nothing special. Build quality in the early hulls was a bit sketchy - in big breeze at Key West there was noticeable flexing in the hull when the rig was wound up, leading to bulkheads separating from the hull, etc. Presumably this was addressed in later hulls.

So, I guess I'd say that there is a market for this kind of thing, but the economy right now isn't what it was in 2005, when NYYC pulled the trigger on the 42s. I guess we'll see how it goes.

Let me add that US Watercraft bought the C&C trademark and is building and marketing the boats on their own, which I think is a first for them. This might be just what the doctor ordered to breathe new life into that classic brand, particularly working with a top designer like Mills. Sort of like what McConaghy has been doing lately with Jason Ker.

Certainly very exciting times in the yachting industry. The global economy is a disaster but interesting boats continue to appear like clockwork. I'm very grateful.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Redline 41*



MrPelicano said:


> It is pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that the Redline 41 is the Mills design that the New York Yacht Club should have chosen in 2005 when they, instead, decided to go with the Frers-designed Swan 42 built by Nautor's. ...
> So, I guess I'd say that there is a market for this kind of thing, but the economy right now isn't what it was in 2005, when NYYC pulled the trigger on the 42s. I guess we'll see how it goes.
> 
> Let me add that US Watercraft bought the C&C trademark and is building and marketing the boats on their own, which I think is a first for them. This might be just what the doctor ordered to breathe new life into that classic brand, particularly working with a top designer like Mills. Sort of like what McConaghy has been doing lately with Jason Ker.
> 
> Certainly very exciting times in the yachting industry. The global economy is a disaster but interesting boats continue to appear like clockwork. I'm very grateful.


Yes I agree, I hope the boat will be a success but the Swan 42 is not a success as a performance cruiser. The boat was only sold in a considerable number because won a contest and was chosen by some rich guys as a one design cruiser-racer for them to play with. The 42 is not even on the list of boats that Swan makes now.

Regarding the two boats there are some considerable differences: The Swan has a bit more than 70cms on the waterline but most of all it is a much more beamier boat, almost 30cms more. The Redline is 850kg lighter. I believe that the Redline will be more fun to sail than the swan but a more difficult boat, specially with a short crew.

The Swan 42 was designed as a club racer and not really as a performance cruiser. On the Redline their intention is to make a dual purpose boat:

*"The original C&C Company was reaching the height of their reputation building winning race boats, when they built a prototype of the original Redline 41. This boat was commended for its racing performance and cruising abilities, one of the first of its kind to be able to both cruise and race beautifully.

Today, C& C Yachts recaptures the essence of the original Redline 41: fast, sleek, seaworthy, and performs exquisitely under sail, whether she is racing or cruising."*

Redline 41 | C&C Yachts

Maybe I am not seeing it right but the boat seems to me to be too extreme to be a good performance cruiser, if we see a cruiser as essentially a solo boat or duo boat. His narrow hull and huge power will be a handful to a solo sailor or to a couple. Time will tell

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Stream 40*





The place where there are designed and built more boats of the Redline type is Italy. France is the paradise in what regards fast solo or short crew boat designs and Italy seems to be the same in what regards fast crewed boat designs, boats that are meant to fast cruising but most of all to race. Passion for fast sailboats runs high on both countries.

A very good example of that is the new Stream 40 designed by Gianluca Adragna team. The boat shares the spirit and market target with Redline but with a different type of hull.





Take a look at the stern:





It seems that the type of stern developed by Ker (that he talked about on a previous post) is being replicated by other designers.

The overall length on the Stream 40 is smaller (11.99 to 12.35m) but the LWL surprisingly is bigger (10.70 to 10.55m). It is lighter (5.500 to 6.400kg) and considerably beamier ( 4.00 to 3.68m2) Finally in what regards draft the Stream has a more moderated one (2.35 to 2.50m). They don't mention the Ballast on the Stream but I am sure that the B/D ratio is smaller than the one on the Redline 41.

Regarding performance cruising all this criteria makes the Stream 40 a better boat (in what regards hull design). Not only the draft is small but the boat is less radical with a higher roll moment of inertia. I mean the Redline with that very low CG and much lesser hull form stability will tend to roll a lot more when it is not "tied" by its sails, I mean on those conditions where the wind is very light but the seas big, when motoring or at an anchorage. The bigger roll moment of inertia and more initial stability will make it also the Stream 40 an easier boat to sail, specially with a smaller crew. The Red line will sail upwind with a lot more heel than the Stream and will tend to roll more downwind. not the ideal for cruising.

On the Stram 40 they also developed the safety parameters that are not only important to race but even more for cruising. The boat has a frontal crash box and a new system to connect the keel to the hull and distribute the forces all around. It is studied to resist 3g forces and resist groundings (all the hull will deform with a grounding, absorbing energy before returning to the original form).



Regarding the interior we did not see yet the Redline one, except on a plan and that does not say much about real quality. He have photos from the Stream interior and they show a good cruising interior for a very fast performance cruiser but one that could be a lot better if they used an interior designer, at least in what regards color.

The colors scheme is just plain wrong and while the dark wood of the cabinets absorbes all the light on the top, the bright red of the upholstery given a red tan to all ambient not to mention the very dark "floor" on a boat with not much imterior light. I can do a lot better and I am not specialized in boat interiors as many Architects are. Just terrible and it is a shame because the interior, not considering that disaster, is not bad at all. Not difficult to change considering that this is certainly a semi custom boat.







You can see more photos here:

Stream 40 Gallery ? Adragna Yacht DesignAdragna Yacht Design

while developed with a dual purpose these boats will be more used for racing than for cruising. So what about pure performance while racing with a crew?





We can only look at weight, hull form and sail area and take a guess. Regarding sail area the Stream 40 has a bigger main and a smaller jib (52.00 to 51.05m2 - 38.00 to 41.20m2) and in what regards Spinnaker they both can carry the same sail area: 140 m2

The sail areas are similar, the Redline is narrower probably with a superior RM from the keel while the Stream has considerably more hull form stability and is also considerably lighter. Overall I bet the boats will have a very close performance with some advantages to one or another depending on points of sail and sea conditions. Maybe one day will see these two racing together and we can really see what they are worth comparatively.


----------



## JAndersB

I continue my crew-weight line of remarks. On this Stream 40 with 10 crew we have and additional weight of around 900-1000 kg to add to empty weight. And when trying to plane or going downwind in light wind you have very little use of that weight. My Opium 39 with 3 of us in crew has a lower overall weight! Is it not better to put that weight in the keel or using hull form? At least you do not need to muster 10 people. 

I guess some of the answer lays in the ratings but still I think it is a littlel bit silly when we talk of boat weights and ballast ratios and these types of boats really are designed for an additional (living) weight of 900 kg. 

Anders


----------



## PCP

*On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.*



JAndersB said:


> I continue my crew-weight line of remarks. On this Stream 40 with 10 crew we have and additional weight of around 900-1000 kg to add to empty weight. And when trying to plane or going downwind in light wind you have very little use of that weight. My Opium 39 with 3 of us in crew has a lower overall weight! Is it not better to put that weight in the keel or using hull form? At least you do not need to muster 10 people.
> 
> I guess some of the answer lays in the ratings but still I think it is a littlel bit silly when we talk of boat weights and ballast ratios and these types of boats really are designed for an additional (living) weight of 900 kg.
> 
> Anders


The answer is no.

There is nothing like reality: If professional racing crews that can race on the same boat with a small crewed, solo or with the maximum crew allowed chose never to race with a small crew and almost always race with near the bigger crew allowed that's because they can be faster that way and this has nothing to do with ratting because unfortunately boats with bigger crews are not penalized and vice verse.

Obviously a bigger weight on the ballast does not beat the moving ballast provided by a good crew.

A more beamier boat develops more drag and boats with huge beams are not faster, except with a solo or duo crew and just because it is impossible to sail a boat like the Stream 40 at 100% with a solo sailor. Even less with the Redline. A lighter boat is not always faster, specially in some points of sail and sea conditions.

Take a look at the beam of an VOR 60 and the beam of and an Open60. A lot more on the Open60 and a VOR 60 is faster, providing that someone does not try to sail it solo Both are boats designed for the trade winds and downwind sailing. Have a VOR 60 racing upwind and an even smaller boat like a Ker 50 can be faster than the VOR.

Most races, inshore or offhore, except trans oceanic races are races with mixed winds, upwind and downwind, were performance cruisers derived from ocean Solo racers are not overall as fast in real time. I have showed it here many times with race results and performances.

Now, another thing is to know what is the faster type of boat with a solo sailor or a duo crew on a offshore or coastal race but not one on the trade winds. Those races (solo and duo) are becoming more and more popular as divisions on big classic races. I am yet looking at it. Not enough data yet to take conclusions

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.*



PCP said:


> The answer is no.
> 
> There is nothing like reality: If professional racing crews that can race on the same boat with a small crewed, solo or with the maximum crew allowed chose never to race with a small crew and almost always race with near the bigger crew allowed that's because they can be faster that way and this has nothing to do with ratting because unfortunately boats with bigger crews are not penalized and vice verse.
> 
> Obviously a bigger weight on the ballast does not beat the moving ballast provided by a good crew.
> 
> A more beamier boat develops more drag and boats with huge beams are not faster, except with a solo or duo crew and just because it is impossible to sail a boat like the Stream 40 at 100% with a solo sailor. Even less with the Redline. A lighter boat is not always faster, specially in some points of sail and sea conditions.
> 
> Take a look at the beam of an VOR 60 and the beam of and an Open60. A lot more on the Open60 and a VOR 60 is faster, providing that someone does not try to sail it solo Both are boats designed for the trade winds and downwind sailing. Have a VOR 60 racing upwind and an even smaller boat like a Ker 50 can be faster than the VOR.
> 
> Most races, inshore or offhore, except trans oceanic races are races with mixed winds, upwind and downwind, were performance cruisers derived from ocean Solo racers are not overall as fast in real time. I have showed it here many times with race results and performances.
> 
> Now, another thing is to know what is the faster type of boat with a solo sailor or a duo crew on a offshore or coastal race but not one on the trade winds. Those races (solo and duo) are becoming more and more popular as divisions on big classic races. I am yet looking at it. Not enough data yet to take conclusions
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, but my main concern is not racing but performance cruising. I am not claiming that a Bolt 37 will be used for cruising or that my Opium is to be used around the cans. I am more fascinated by the frequent remarks on how much cruising gear will load down a boat when it very well can be offset by a bigger or heavier crew, which never seems to taken ito consideration. And especially in cruising those big family members will not sit on the rail.

As you said, buying for example a Stream40 (or as I and many others did before, an Elan 333) and use it for cruising would be pretty demanding because the boat really need those 10 people on the rail or a much heavier keel or a beamier hull (aft) with perhaps double rudders. With its hull and used for performance cruising the weight, due to heavier keel, should be perhaps 1000 kg more before we start comparing weight and ballast ratios with other cruisers.

I am with you regarding hull shapes, drags etc. but I still find it fascinating when these race machines are built as light as possible and then loaded down with so much people that they hardly can keep the cockpit dry when leaving harbour.

Shure, our new interesting boats as represented by Pogo, Opium and others are a reaction on this to some extent but I wonder if there is not still some more innovative thinking to be done. Archambault A35 and other similars might be a good middle road, or then something still not developed. Just some thoughts 

Anders


----------



## robelz

TJV tartet this morning. While IMOCAs, Multi50s and MOD70s do the whole race in one, Class40s will head to Roscoff (160 miles from Le Havre) and wait for the storm to go by.


----------



## PCP

Edward3 said:


> "From the Designer Mark Mills and C&C Yachts
> 
> *....Mills Design is internationally recognized as a leader in performance yacht design. Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - Home. Their portfolio of winning 40 foot IRC & ORC is beyond compare. ..*.


Hi Edward,

First I thought you had wrote this but it is clearly a quote and I don't believe that it is from Mills but from someone from C&C, showing clearly the immodesty and exaggeration that Europeans will find typically American

No doubt that Mills is a leading performance yacht designer, one among few but being his portfolio in 40 ft IRC & ORC without compare?

It seems they never heard about Ker and his Ker 39 and Ker 40?

Results | Ker Yacht Design

Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - Results

I hope that what they say about the Redline 41 will not be as exaggerated.

I don't understand this type of statements that I don't think are good regarding to be credible regarding their products. Maybe it is in America since several brands display this kind of exaggeration and I am thinking about the "best anchor in the world" or at least advertised as that by an American firm

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

They say A leader (equals "one of the leaders"), not THE leader...

"beyond compare" might be too much


----------



## JAndersB

robelz said:


> They say A leader (equals "one of the leaders"), not THE leader...
> 
> "beyond compare" might be too much


I would interpret the "a leader" as the leader but then I guess I also have other languages than english as the first language.

Anders


----------



## MrPelicano

JAndersB said:


> I would interpret the "a leader" as the leader but then I guess I also have other languages than english as the first language.
> 
> Anders


Well, let's be fair. Ker and Mills are the two top designers for IRC/ORC in the 38-50 foot range.

Those who follow these things know very well that there are a significant number of NAs who have been designing successful IRC/ORC boats for several years. But I suspect that if you took a poll among top NAs worldwide, Ker and Mills would probably be consensus choices as "leaders".

Fortunately for me, I like them both. But I also like J/V designs, VPLP designs, Johnstone designs, etc. There are simply a lot of really amazing designs out there - perhaps more variety than at any other time in the history of yacht design.


----------



## Edward3

Paulo, never believe everything you read on the intronet!!!
Being from this side of the pond... i'm fond of Mills after racing on one of his 40's. Raced against a few Kers and find all the new designs good competition.



PCP said:


> Hi Edward,
> 
> First I thought you had wrote this but it is clearly a quote and I don't believe that it is from Mills but from someone from C&C, showing clearly the immodesty and exaggeration that Europeans will find typically American
> 
> No doubt that Mills is a leading performance yacht designer, one among few but being his portfolio in 40 ft IRC & ORC without compare?
> 
> It seems they never heard about Ker and his Ker 39 and Ker 40?
> 
> Results | Ker Yacht Design
> 
> Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - Results
> 
> I hope that what they say about the Redline 41 will not be as exaggerated.
> 
> I don't understand this type of statements that I don't think are good regarding to be credible regarding their products. Maybe it is in America since several brands display this kind of exaggeration and I am thinking about the "best anchor in the world" or at least advertised as that by an American firm
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


----------



## robelz

Talking about Mills: what happened to this one? Has it ever been built?

Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - 38' Shorthanded Cruiser-Racer


----------



## PCP

*Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.*



JAndersB said:


> ..
> 
> As you said, buying for example a Stream40 ...and use it for cruising would be pretty demanding because the boat really need those 10 people on the rail or a much heavier keel or a beamier hull (aft) with perhaps double rudders. With its hull and used for performance cruising the weight, due to heavier keel, should be perhaps 1000 kg more before we start comparing weight and ballast ratios with other cruisers.
> ....
> Shure, our new interesting boats as represented by Pogo, Opium and others are a reaction on this to some extent but I wonder if there is not still some more innovative thinking to be done. Archambault A35 and other similars might be a good middle road, or then something still not developed. Just some thoughts
> 
> Anders


They don't give the ballast on the Stream 40 but being a fast sailboat it will be a considerable one taking into consideration his big draft and torpedo keel, proportionally considerably more than on the average cruising sailboat, I am sure, that the Stream 40 is a very stiff boat without nobody seating on the rail. Not only because it has a very deep keel and a considerable ballast but because it is a beamy boat.

All those guys on the rail does not mean that the boat needs them there to sail properly, it means that in any boat, including the Opium or the Pogo 12.50, if you sit a large crew on the rail the boat sails with less heel and it is faster.

Narrow boats to be stiff only need to have more RM coming from the keel than beamier boats. The Redline 41 has almost the double of the B/D ratio of an Opium 39 and a considerable bigger draft. The boat will sail with more heel but that's all. I have no doubts that the Redline 41 or the Stream 40 will be more stiff (till 30º) than the Opium 39 even without anybody seating on the rail. Stiffness in a sailboat means power and while the Opium 39 is a very fast performance cruiser this two are not only fast performance cruisers but mostly top racers.

You can have an idea about the power of the boat and its stiffness by the sail area it can fly: the Opium 39 is slightly heavier than the Stream 40 but only can carry a upwind sail area of 63.2m2 while the Stream can carry 90m2 ( both boats with jib) and downwind the Opium 39 can carry 166.3m2 and the Stream 192.0m2.

The Stream is the stiffer and more powerful boat, also the boat with less drag. While racing the crew is there to maximize the boat performance not because the boat cannot sail or cruise perfectly without the crew on the rail.

On races where the 40class racers are raced with a crew you will see them seated on the rail as in any other boat even if the boat has water ballast, a thing that neither the Opium 39 or the Pogo 12.50 have.

In the 40class racers and Open60, the water ballasts are there, not because the boat needs them to sail but to maximize performance, as a crew does on IRC and ORC racers.

The difficulty I had talked about has nothing to do with the stiffness of the boat but with the boat being more "nervous" and in need of constant adjustments to be sailed near 100%. The Stream would not have any problem being used solo or with a short crew if sailed conservatively (80%) and even so it will be with all probability faster than am Opium 39 sailed near 100%. Sure, the Opium would be less nervous and more easy, specially downwind, but that does not means faster.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mills 38ft Solo performance cruiser*



robelz said:


> Talking about Mills: what happened to this one? Has it ever been built?
> 
> Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - 38' Shorthanded Cruiser-Racer


I want one





Gorgeous design (2011). No I did not knew this design and I don't believe it has been made.

This boat is not very beamy for a solo boat (does anybody fiend the dimensions of this boat?) and has a considerable ballast in a deep torpedo.

It has a hull design that make it easy downwind. I believe this design is not appropriated for solo transats (not stable or easy enough downwind - not beamy enough) but it would the perfect type of boat to win that new duo class that now is part of all classic races. This boat seems to me a very good compromise between upwind, downwind sailing and easiness.

The size it is also the best for an experienced but not necessarily a top sailor and it would be also perfect as a performance cruiser with an overall great performance. I like it very much

This type of design would have made a lot more sense regarding C&C and the Redline 41 if what they really wanted was a duo boat, balanced in what regards racing and cruising.

Regards

Paulo


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## JAndersB

*Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.*



PCP said:


> They don't give the ballast on the Stream 40 but being a fast sailboat it will be a considerable one taking into consideration his big draft and torpedo keel, proportionally considerably more than on the average cruising sailboat, I am sure, that the Stream 40 is a very stiff boat without nobody seating on the rail. Not only because it has a very deep keel and a considerable ballast but because it is a beamy boat.
> 
> All those guys on the rail does not mean that the boat needs them there to sail properly, it means that in any boat, including the Opium or the Pogo 12.50, if you sit a large crew on the rail the boat sails with less heel and it is faster.
> 
> Narrow boats to be stiff only need to have more RM coming from the keel than beamier boats. The Redline 41 has almost the double of the B/D ratio of an Opium 39 and a considerable bigger draft. The boat will sail with more heel but that's all. I have no doubts that the Redline 41 or the Stream 40 will be more stiff (till 30º) than the Opium 39 even without anybody seating on the rail. Stiffness in a sailboat means power and while the Opium 39 is a very fast performance cruiser this two are not only fast performance cruisers but mostly top racers.
> 
> You can have an idea about the power of the boat and its stiffness by the sail area it can fly: the Opium 39 is slightly heavier than the Stream 40 but only can carry a upwind sail area of 63.2m2 while the Stream can carry 90m2 ( both boats with jib) and downwind the Opium 39 can carry 166.3m2 and the Stream 192.0m2.
> 
> The Stream is the stiffer and more powerful boat, also the boat with less drag. While racing the crew is there to maximize the boat performance not because the boat cannot sail or cruise perfectly without the crew on the rail.
> 
> On races where the 40class racers are raced with a crew you will see them seated on the rail as in any other boat even if the boat has water ballast, a thing that neither the Opium 39 or the Pogo 12.50 have.
> 
> In the 40class racers and Open60, the water ballasts are there, not because the boat needs them to sail but to maximize performance, as a crew does on IRC and ORC racers.
> 
> The difficulty I had talked about has nothing to do with the stiffness of the boat but with the boat being more "nervous" and in need of constant adjustments to be sailed near 100%. The Stream would not have any problem being used solo or with a short crew if sailed conservatively (80%) and even so it will be with all probability faster than am Opium 39 sailed near 100%. Sure, the Opium would be less nervous and more easy, specially downwind, but that does not means faster.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Opium with 3 crew is lighter than Stream with 10 crew. We talk a lot of weight versus early planing. When going downwind I maintain you have no or very little use of 10 crew so Stream heavier and less optimised for planing. And since my comments, as stated, are about cruising I am not saying a boat will not be faster on a beat with both a lot of ballast AND weight on the rail. But most of us cruisers, even if performance oriented, are satisfied with good performance beating and are looking for excellence on other angles.

Opium does not have the sail areas you mentioned, my areas are upwind 82 sqm and with gennaker 172 sqm.

A boat with narrow hull and calculating with crew weight on the rail for RM and with singel rudder will be difficult to sail with small crew cruising. As you said yourself the boat need to be sailed at 80% and especially in an archipelago where you need 110% behind the islands and 60% in the gusts and open water you will have a lot of broaching.

And where all this weight discussion started was my comment that we 3 in our crew, with a weight of 200 kg can bring a lot of cruising gear compared with a similar boat with a bigger family or racing crew consisting of many heavy persons, a fact I only wanted to point out was missing in many comparisons.

Anders


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## MrPelicano

*Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.*



JAndersB said:


> Opium with 3 crew is lighter than Stream with 10 crew. We talk a lot of weight versus early planing. When going downwind I maintain you have no or very little use of 10 crew so Stream heavier and less optimised for planing. And since my comments, as stated, are about cruising I am not saying a boat will not be faster on a beat with both a lot of ballast AND weight on the rail. But most of us cruisers, even if performance oriented, are satisfied with good performance beating and are looking for excellence on other angles.
> 
> Opium does not have the sail areas you mentioned, my areas are upwind 82 sqm and with gennaker 172 sqm.
> 
> A boat with narrow hull and calculating with crew weight on the rail for RM and with singel rudder will be difficult to sail with small crew cruising. As you said yourself the boat need to be sailed at 80% and especially in an archipelago where you need 110% behind the islands and 60% in the gusts and open water you will have a lot of broaching.
> 
> And where all this weight discussion started was my comment that we 3 in our crew, with a weight of 200 kg can bring a lot of cruising gear compared with a similar boat with a bigger family or racing crew consisting of many heavy persons, a fact I only wanted to point out was missing in many comparisons.
> 
> Anders


Anders - I'm not sure your factoring in what is required to sail the boat at 100% optimal performance under given conditions. Let me explain...

In marginal planing conditions, the weight of the extra crew is definitely an obstacle to breaking out of displacement mode and achieving planing speeds. In such conditions, fewer crew are required to handle the boat in order to achieve optimal speed.

However, as the breeze increases, so does the boathandling effort. I can tell you that everyone is busy on a 42-foot boat going downwind with mast head spinnaker in 20+ knots, particularly as you achieve planing speeds. At this point, apparent wind goes forward and the boat wants to round up, so the crew find themselves again in hiking position towards the back of the boat, to counter that effect.

Of course, we know that boats like the IMOCA 60 can be sailed in such conditions with one or two crew. But this is because they have been optimized precisely to compensate for the missing 10-12 bodies, via canting keels, water ballast, coffee grinder winches, etc.

Boats like the Stream 40 don't have water ballast or canting keels, so they have to make do with crew weight, which is effectively movable ballast. The trouble with cruising boats in planing conditions is that the equivalent weight is generally not located in the proper place to optimize boat speed. If you could take your inflatable tender, flat screen TV, water maker, and other items of weight, and quickly reposition them to the aft quarter of the boat, you'd achieve the same effect as the stripped out performance cruisers do with 8-10 handsome crew in matching Gaastra kit.

I recognized a short time ago that Mills should probably get a bit more credit than Ker for his IRC designs precisely because Mills makes an effort to provide some semblance of a cruising-friendly interior for his boats; Ker makes almost no such effort, but chooses to exploit other aspects of the IRC rule to achieve racing success. Still remember setting foot on Mills' IRC 37 "No Naked Flames" at 2008 Key West Race Week and being shocked by how comfortable it was down below, in contrast to its very racy (and sexy) exterior. The Swan 42s were there that year and looked sluggish by comparison.

Anyway, Paulo is correct, I think, that boats like the Redline 41 and the Ker designs can be sailed shorthanded if you make the necessary accommodations - i.e., you're going to reef early and switch headsails early and use smaller kites, etc. Ultimately, though, you won't be able to sail those boats to their optimal performance level even in the lightest breeze, since you'll be missing those 8-10 handsome crew down on the low side, inducing leeward heel, or tucked down below in the forepeak, reducing stern drag.


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## PCP

*Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.*



JAndersB said:


> Opium with 3 crew is lighter than Stream with 10 crew. We talk a lot of weight versus early planing. When going downwind I maintain you have no or very little use of 10 crew so Stream heavier and less optimised for planing. And since my comments, as stated, are about cruising I am not saying a boat will not be faster on a beat with both a lot of ballast AND weight on the rail. But most of us cruisers, even if performance oriented, are satisfied with good performance beating and are looking for excellence on other angles.
> ....
> A boat with narrow hull and calculating with crew weight on the rail for RM and with singel rudder will be difficult to sail with small crew cruising. ...
> ....


Anders I don't want to continue to discuss this with you neither I want to piss you so it will be a quick post:

You seem to think that a boat like the Stream 40 without a crew on the rail would be slower than the Opium 39. I do not agree.

The rating of the boats has nothing to do with crew on the rails. Compare the rating of an Opium 39 with a top cruiser-racer like the Stream 40 and you will be on another order of magnitude.

You seem to assume that the Stream 40 is a narrow boat. It is not, 4.00m for a 40ft cruiser-racer is well above the average.

You seem to assume that a two rudder set up is indispensable or is a great advantage in a boat with 4 m beam in what regards performance and control. Certainly they are more convenient for cruising but just because you would need a very deep rudder like the one on the Stream 40.

Many top designer continue to prefer this type of rudder for very fast cruiser-racers and certainly they can provide an adequate boat control.lt is obvious that if they continue to design them that way is because they think they are more efficient and they use complicated fluid dynamics programs to determine the performance of rudders. It is all a question of design even if I think a two rudder setup is more efficient the difference in performance and control would be marginal. My preferences are more linked with reliability and less maintenance.

Bottom point, the Opium 39 is a great and very fast performance cruiser optimized for downwind sailing. The Stream 40 is a top cruiser racer very much oriented for top level racing and with an overall top racing performance.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> I recognized a short time ago that Mills should probably get a bit more credit than Ker for his IRC designs precisely because Mills makes an effort to provide some semblance of a cruising-friendly interior for his boats; Ker makes almost no such effort, but chooses to exploit other aspects of the IRC rule to achieve racing success. Still remember setting foot on Mills' IRC 37 "No Naked Flames" at 2008 Key West Race Week and being shocked by how comfortable it was down below, in contrast to its very racy (and sexy) exterior. The Swan 42s were there that year and looked sluggish by comparison.
> ...


NA do what clients want regarding the interior of a boat. The Designer regarding the interior only give a general plan. Interiors of boats today, if quality is desired are designed by designers specialized in interiors. It is the owner of the boat if it is an one off, or the builder that determines that as well as the target market of the boat: If more for racing with a worse and more naked interior or with more quality and more agreeable for cruising interior.

In fact today we are seeing a clear tendency to a boat to be designed by a team of experts and not only an Architect like in the old days. Even only in what regards the sailing part of a boat sometimes you have the NA, that leads the team, a specialist in hydro dynamics and a specialist in rigging. Most of the times the specialist in interior design works directly with the builder and not with the NA. The builder that knows better the market wants to have complete control of that sector.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Fantastic movie, incredible story.*

I am still at the middle of the movie but I have to share this with you all. Not a new story but an unbelievable one. The only guy rational about this was Dudley Dix, the South African NA that helped a crazy kid that was determined to circumnavigating in a ridiculous appropriated small boat.

Face to the kids determination he helped him to make his boat strong and seaworthy enough to give the him the best chances of survival and a way to accomplish his dream.

And the kid has up to his dream. Great story, a mad one, but a great one, providing nobody thinks it is safe to do that on such boat






By the way the boat is remarkably modern for a 20 year old boat and it seems to sail well. It has a keel with a bulb at the end of a relatively big and narrow foil.


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Fantastic movie, incredible story.*



PCP said:


> I am still at the middle of the movie but I have to share this with you all. Not a new story but an unbelievable one. The only guy rational about this was Dudley Dix, the South African NA that helped a crazy kid that was determined to circumnavigating in a ridiculous appropriated small boat.
> 
> Face to the kids determination he helped him to make his boat strong and seaworthy enough to give the him the best chances of survival and a way to accomplish his dream.
> 
> And the kid has up to his dream. Great story, a mad one, but a great one, providing nobody thinks it is safe to do that on such boat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way the boat is remarkably modern for a 20 year old boat and it seems to sail well. It has a keel with a bulb at the end of a relatively big and narrow foil.


Looks like it's optimized for IRC. Check out that sprit and furling gennaker.  On the other hand, those slab sides are more reminiscent of IMS at its worst. Going to need a gift rating to be competitive.


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## JAndersB

I also think we are talking in circles now regarding crew weight so I just want to end with repeating that my remark was a more philosophical observation and also more cruising and boat design oriented.

We also have different opinions about single/double rudders, as concluded before.I have tried both, single rudder with low ballast and narrow hulls, with low ballast and wide hulls, with high ballast with narrow and wider hulls and now doubble rudders, wide hull and rather low ballast. Never 10 crew though because I am only cruising. I have also read "all" boat tests on the market and I stand by my opinion that there is a difference especially in ghusty conditions and crusing, especially when you do not have a lot of ballast and 10 guys on the rail or one for every sheet. Put in even more ballast or make the boat extremely narrow (Faurby, old swedish cruisers) to prevent it broaching when tryingto get 100% , to replace the crew and you get a very heavy or difficult boat on a reach. 

But all this we have been through in discussion earlier and I know that there are different opinions and sailing conditions so I agree, let's move on.

Andrers


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## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

Finally they have started!!!





Départ ponton - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 _by TransatJacquesVabre_





Départ - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 _by TransatJacquesVabre_

and here they are:

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

First comment: It is incredible how much faster the Mod70 are. The difference to an Open 60 it is a lot more than a difference in speed between an Open 60 and a 40class racer

No wonder that there are guys from the Open60 passing to the Mod70: They are there in first place because they like to sail fast


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## EricKLYC

How about this :






Best regards,

Eric


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## PCP

*Spedream*



EricKLYC said:


> How about this :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


This time they seems to go faster but only with three guys as ballast with one I don't see it going fast. That project is a study for a a big boat. I don't get it. It has not the advantages of a monohull in what regards safety and I don't see any advantage over a multihull.

A monohull is much more forgiving to sail than a multihull because the RM that is utilized for sailing (at 30º) is not the max RM . Max RM on most monohulls is between 50 and 70º. That means if the boat catches a strong gust it will heel and not only the wind pressure will be less (sail heeled) as the RM of the boat will be considerably bigger than at 30º, putting again the boat on its feet.

This one is made to have max sail performance with Max RM. That is nice in what regards performance but what will happen in a gust? The boat will heel more and with more heel the boat will have a smaller RM. It can work on a dinghy where the guys can compensate that moving the body and acting quickly on the sails but what will happen on a a huge yacht, the original project?

Not a good idea on a bigger boat.

Interesting anyway but I think the project developed by Defline is more interesting in what regards bigger boats.

Also, I know the bow is supposed to be wave piercing but even without almost no waves and two guys trying to lift the bow it seems it tends to go underwater a lot. It seems to me that there is not enough fluctuation there.

Good time to review what I have said about this interesting project:

*"This is indeed an interesting idea but it seems that it is not working out at least on the first boat. They don't seem to have enough RM. The conditions seem pretty soft, with not too much wind and they have to balance the boat with the weight of the body. Contrary to what I think Murnikov expected, when the keels comes out of water the boat seems to lose quickly stability.

I guess that it is because the keel work as a foil and creates stability even if it was not maximized for that, like on the DSS project.

Maybe we can combine both projects: Maximizing ballast effect maintaining it at the better angle to provide Max RM while profiling that keel to aerodynamically make a downward force. Maybe it is not much difficult to make a variable profile with small servo electric engines (like on an airplane).

That way it could be possible to maintain the keel always in the better position (slightly inside the water) adjusting the profile to give more or less downwind force according with wind intensity.

For working that way that bulb has to be modified, giving it a much more elongated form, diminishing drag. Like it is, it was made to be out of the water and now it would be inside the water all times.

It seems that they don't go that way and I don't like the way they are going. It seems to me that those wings on the new modified boat will be just to provide more RM trough the displacement of the weight of the crew. That would not work out on a bigger model.

In fact if they want to test for a bigger model the way they are doing it makes no sense. The RM provided by the weight of the crew will have in the smaller model a completely disproportionated effect providing much more RM than it would be possible on the bigger boat where the crew will weight proportionally a lot less regarding the total weight of the boat."*



PCP said:


> For years I have been seeing designs from Vlad Murnikov about his vision of the fastest monohull, a boat that could be as faster as a multihull, a huge boat (100ft) with the looks of a space ship. Well the designs were nice but the guy is not a leading NA and I guess it was just some dreamer with interesting ideas:
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> Then, some time a go I heard that Roger Martin (a leading American NA) was involved in hull and deck shaping, general layout and detail design, that Hugh Welbourn (the one from DSS technologie) was part of the team and that Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) and sails was been developed by Tyler Doyle from Doyle Sails while SP-High Modulus was taking care of the structural engeniere. I thought to myself, jesus this is for real now.
> 
> When I heard that Lyman Morse was making a small prototype with 27ft I got really excited about it. After all they are promising the fastest monohull ever built, a boat with:
> 
> * Delta-shaped hull, almost triangular in plan view, with a very narrow, wave-piercing bow to reduce resistance and improve seaworthiness.
> 
> Maximum stability and sail carrying capacity due to the innovative Ultimate Canting Keel with a bulb that comes out of water to provide the highest possible Righting Moment while completely eliminating drag.
> 
> Telescoping keel that retracts to reduce draft while in harbor and extends while sailing to maximize Righting Moment.
> 
> Stabilizing foils to further improve stability and reduce drag by partially offsetting boat weight. Similar to the DSS foils pioneered by Hugh Welbourn, SpeedDream wings are used in combination with canting keel and, in addition to lift, provide lateral resistance.
> 
> The resulting stability is far superior to all current keel boats while requiring only fraction of the ballast, thereby significantly reducing the total boat displacement.
> 
> The innovative and practical deck layout and superstructure styling that keeps crew safe and deck free of excess water even at high speed.*
> 
> Well, the prototype is on the water. The images are not spectacular and I start to have some doubts. I truly hope they will be soon posting more spectacular movies and that this one is just not showing the full boat potential.
> 
> To follow closely


Regards

Paulo


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## EricKLYC

*Re: Spedream*

This also makes no sense to me.

Why all that expensive carbon if the idea is to go submarine in a seaway or capsize in a gust anyway :laugher?

Best regards,

Eric


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## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

In this beginning of the Transat I was surprised by the performance of the 40class boats, The Leaders leaved several Open60 and Multi 50 behind...before having to take shelter in Roscoff. Again I do not understand very well the race committee. The decision was made because the class 40 had not the speed to pas safely before some strong winds that will come in 24h and obviously the committee thinks they cannot make it in safety.

What I do not understand is if the 40class racer cannot do it safely those 2 multi 50 that were behind most 40 class racers can? Regarding strong winds I certainly would prefer to take my chances on a 40class racer than on a multi 50 specially if they are racing.

The 40 class race is stopped again, This time they will wait in Roscoff till the front passes.

*"Leading the Transat Jacques Vabre Class 40 fleet in to their weather stop at Bloscon, Roscoff Sébastien Rogues and Fabien Delahaye on GDF SUEZ crossed the line there in first place at 14h45m 25s (local CET) to earn themselves a margin of 19 minutes and 39 seconds when they restart to Itajaí.

Spain's Alex Pella and Pablo Saturde on the new Botin designed Tales Santander 2014 rose from fifth in the early morning to take second place, gaining in the reaching conditions in to the finish line, whilst the German flagged Mare of Jorg Riechers and Pierre Brasseur crossed third 4 mins and 27 seconds behind the Spanish pair."*

A surprise the 2th place, of the Spanish team. Nice

They beat two heavy weight, Jörg Riechers/Pierre Brasseur that come in 3th.

The Ker 40class racer made only 15th:

"*In 15th place Britons Sam Goodchild and Ned Collier Wakefield were taking some time to get to know their new boat, finding their straight line speed good but they felt they struggled more on the corners and transitions:
"We are glad to have got here, it is a learning process as much as a race for us and doing things in the middle of the night is not the best way to learn, but we are OK. We are not too upset where we finished, we were in the mix but made a couple of mistakes and did get stopped at the start under a cloud, but it is all OK. We got stopped a little off Guernsey but we are happy with how the boat is going."
*

Let's wait a bit more to see if that boat is a match or not.

Regarding the others, it is going to be a hard night and a worst morning: Take a look at the weather:

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

The boats are already getting 25K and the worst is coming on the Biscay bay were the waves and the sea are very problematic with strong winds. They all should got 50k gusts. Not agreable. I wish the best of luck to all, specially to the crews on Multi 50. After all it seems they are not going to make it fast enough to escape and are going to take the worst of it.

I have the biggest consideration regarding those sailors. The Multi 50 are the most difficult boats to sail and with two and bad weather they require constant attention.

The Open 60's they are finally at speed and are going to speed even more. I believe that in those bad conditions they are going to gain on the multi 50. Big balls anyway to keep on speeding on these conditions. Interesting to see who is going to be the fastest on the bad weather, where having the fastest boat make not much difference.

The star team is leading (Gabart/Desjoyeaux), Riou/Le cam are second and Marc/Pascal, that have been 2th are now in 5th. I wonder if they have already a problem in the boat. They are sailing slowly.


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Transat Jaques Fabre*



PCP said:


> In this beginning of the Transat I was surprised by the performance of the 40class boats, The Leaders leaved several Open60 and Multi 50 behind...before having to take shelter in Roscoff. Again I do not understand very well the race committee. The decision was made because the class 40 had not the speed to pas safely before some strong winds that will come in 24h and obviously the committee thinks they cannot make it in safety.
> 
> What I do not understand is if the 40class racer cannot do it safely those 2 multi 50 that were behind most 40 class racers can? Regarding strong winds I certainly would prefer to take my chances on a 40class racer than on a multi 50 specially if they are racing.
> 
> The 40 class race is stopped again, This time they will wait in Roscoff till the front passes.
> 
> *"Leading the Transat Jacques Vabre Class 40 fleet in to their weather stop at Bloscon, Roscoff Sébastien Rogues and Fabien Delahaye on GDF SUEZ crossed the line there in first place at 14h45m 25s (local CET) to earn themselves a margin of 19 minutes and 39 seconds when they restart to Itajaí.
> 
> Spain's Alex Pella and Pablo Saturde on the new Botin designed Tales Santander 2014 rose from fifth in the early morning to take second place, gaining in the reaching conditions in to the finish line, whilst the German flagged Mare of Jorg Riechers and Pierre Brasseur crossed third 4 mins and 27 seconds behind the Spanish pair."*
> 
> A surprise the 2th place, of the Spanish team. Nice
> 
> They beat two heavy weight, Jörg Riechers/Pierre Brasseur that come in 3th.
> 
> The Ker 40class racer made only 15th:
> 
> "*In 15th place Britons Sam Goodchild and Ned Collier Wakefield were taking some time to get to know their new boat, finding their straight line speed good but they felt they struggled more on the corners and transitions:
> "We are glad to have got here, it is a learning process as much as a race for us and doing things in the middle of the night is not the best way to learn, but we are OK. We are not too upset where we finished, we were in the mix but made a couple of mistakes and did get stopped at the start under a cloud, but it is all OK. We got stopped a little off Guernsey but we are happy with how the boat is going."
> *
> 
> Let's wait a bit more to see if that boat is a match or not.
> 
> Regarding the others, it is going to be a hard night and a worst morning: Take a look at the weather:
> 
> Transat Jacques Vabre 2013
> 
> The boats are already getting 25K and the worst is coming on the Biscay bay were the waves and the sea are very problematic with strong winds. They all should got 50k gusts. Not agreable. I wish the best of luck to all, specially to the crews on Multi 50. After all it seems they are not going to make it fast enough to escape and are going to take the worst of it.
> 
> I have the biggest consideration regarding those sailors. The Multi 50 are the most difficult boats to sail and with two and bad weather they require constant attention.
> 
> The Open 60's they are finally at speed and are going to speed even more. I believe that in those bad conditions they are going to gain on the multi 50. Big balls anyway to keep on speeding on these conditions. Interesting to see who is going to be the fastest on the bad weather, where having the fastest boat make not much difference.
> 
> The star team is leading (Gabart/Desjoyeaux), Riou/Le cam are second and Marc/Pascal, that have been 2th are now in 5th. I wonder if they have already a problem in the boat. They are sailing slowly.


I seem to recall that I had Gabart/Desjoyeaux and Riou/Le Cam as my #1 and #2 picks a few days ago. You were liking Safran and Maitre Coq. And I qualified my picks by saying that if Stamm could get his Juan K-designed boat to start performing, he would be up in the mix, as well (he is currently sitting in third place). Excuse me while I go buy a lottery ticket and bet on some horse racing.


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## PCP

*Re: Transat Jaques Fabre*



MrPelicano said:


> I seem to recall that I had Gabart/Desjoyeaux and Riou/Le Cam as my #1 and #2 picks a few days ago. You were liking Safran and Maitre Coq. And I qualified my picks by saying that if Stamm could get his Juan K-designed boat to start performing, he would be up in the mix, as well (he is currently sitting in third place). Excuse me while I go buy a lottery ticket and bet on some horse racing.


No, I have agreed with you and joined Safran and Marc/Pascal to the favorites. I still think that if Marc/Pascal have not a problem they are serious contenders for the victory but he went out from 2th to 5th and he is going slowly so I think something is wrong. Do you thinh he lost the titanium keel...again

They are the favorites anyway. You would not have won much with that bet, but betting on that Spanish team on the 40class for the podium...there you would have won a lot of money

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Dufour 410 GL*





I have posted recently about the Dufour 410 GL, the one that is in my opinion the most beautiful mass market main market cruiser. Felci that is known to design very nice boats has made a great design.

For the ones that are interested in a 40ft it would be interesting to read the test made by Yacht.de, always a reference in what regards seriousness and quality. It can be downloaded on line (2€).

Even without reading the test we can enjoy the movie. We can see that the boat sails very well with light winds, even without a geenaker and can see that there is a lot of bright and interesting ideas on that boat in what regards storage, space and comfort. Nice

*Movie*:

Neue Tourenyacht Dufour 410 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre - Incredile images*

They are just starting to get some bad weather, much worst is ahead. Just look at this images of one of the Mod70. It is incredible what these boats can take without breaking as it is impressive what those 2 solo sailors can take: Can you imagine sleeping, eating or even pissing with that motion?


----------



## DiasDePlaya

I'm sure they never sleep, eat nor piss!


----------



## HMoll

*J122 "e"*

Look!, now they can do interiors as well!


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*



Really bad out there!. +30K with 40K gusts on one of the worst and more dangerous places to have strong winds: The Biscay.

The two mod 70 after that mad cavalcade during a good part of the night are out of the bad weather. They managed not to broke the boats and are out of Biscay.

All the others are still battling sea conditions. As I had previewed that the Open60 on those conditions would close on the Multi 50 and the duo wonder eat them all and is way ahead of everybody. To give an idea of the conditions it is enough to say that with 30k wind the Open 60 are only making 10k. With the power those boats have you can imagine the pounding they are suffering.

Those two (Gabart/Dejoieux) seem to be untouchable. All other boats have a top sailor and a very good sailor. Macif is the only one with not only two top sailors (and probably the best)as it is one if not the fastest Open 60 on the race. It is not fair

I have said also that these conditions took away some of the advantage of the fastest boats creating more equal conditions and we can see some of the slower boats with a fantastic performance: That's the case with Alessandro de Benedetto that with the older boat (1998) and without canting keel is making a great race and leaving well behind more modern boats like Energa (2007) or Tanguy de la Motte (also with a 1998 boat). That guy deserves a more modern boat.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013


----------



## PCP

*Re: J122 "e"*



HMoll said:


> Look!, now they can do interiors as well!


Yes you are right. And that interior in teak would be even more beautiful. A modern interior that makes the J122 even more desirable as a performance cruiser. A lot more light on that interior now.











One of the best if not the best in what regards racing/cruising. A favorite of mine and a great boat. Pity that they had not took the chance to offer a two wheel set up: that would make the boat better for cruising and most of all better for solo sailing.

On the outside the boat looks even better now.













Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*J122e / Bluejacket 40*

Let's take the opportunity to look at both boats. I will not be analyzing them since it is obvious that the J122 is a much faster boat and while on the Bluejacket publicity they advertise the boat as a dual boat it it clear that we are not talking about the same races.

The J122 can be a winner anywhere in almost any race, the Bluejacket is more for club racing, or as Americans call it bear can races, that are much more popular in the states than in Europe.

Many bad things have been said about the Bluejacket in the Sailnet, but I like the hull and even if the rigging is not adapted (at all) for racing or performance cruising, I am sure that it will be a fast cruising boat that can even be considered, mainly by american standards, a performance cruiser.

Take a look at the very nice Bluejacket hull:

Blue Jacket 40 360° View | BlueJacketYachts.com

Happily they seemed to have changed their approach in advertising the boat assuming a much more realistic approach. Initially they have said about the Bluejacket 40:

Delivering a unique combination of *exhilarating performance*, luxurious accommodations and exceptional quality, the Blue Jacket provides a delightful environment for family vacations and overnight getaways combined *with race-winning capability*.

Blue Jacket 40 (BJ40) Performance Sailing Yacht | BlueJacketYachts.com

to a more modest (and correct) approach in what regards racing ability:

"The hull form and appendages of the Blue Jacket are designed to work in harmony with the sailplan to provide performance that extends daily sailing range and *the potential to generate more race trophies*....

The design challenge presented was to create a yacht with a performance pedigree, one that could *compete effectively* in around-the-buoy and offshore races yet provide a level of comfort, build quality and ease of use that would gratify the entire family. "

Blue Jacket 40 Yacht Design Comments by Tim Jackett | BlueJacketYachts.com

Nobody is talking anymore about winning races but to compete effectively and about winning trophies. That is better.

The J122 is advertised:

*"The J122 no longer needs an introduction. It's a boat that has proven its worth in terms of fast cruising and boasts a series of fine race victories. Its seaworthiness remains unsurpassed, but it seemed important for us to adapt the J122 to the current climate. It's been a tough mission as it's not easy to alter the style of an existing boat. The hull, the deck and the structure are identical. For the rest, together with the Roséo firm, who are renowned designers in the watersports industry, we've given the J122 a thorough review inside and out. ..The J122 E is quite simply more modern and is sure to correspond with the needs of an ever more demanding clientele.

There are several J 122 versions that can suit either the most cruising program or the most regatta program.

The J 122 is a cruising sailboat in which you can expect to find the comfort worthy of the biggest units while it's offering on the deck the most advanced and suitable material for an intensive use.
Many options are available, for the cruising lovers: teak deck, extra water tank, and hood; for the regatta lovers: high modulus carbon mast, boom and carbon steering wheel.
Despite its regattas results, the J 122 remains an easy maneuverable sailboat when crew is reduced thanks to its stability and simplicity."
*

I would say that both descriptions are now reasonably accurate.

The J122 and the Bluejacket are not pointed to the same market. While the Bluejacket 40 is pointed to what in Europe we call the Luxury market and points to main market cruisers that want a faster boat, the J122 points clearly to performance cruising and racing, enlarging with this interior and the cruising options the scope of cruisers that will look at this boat as a cruising option: experienced sailors that like to cruise fast, like to have a lot of fun sailing and hate to be overtaken. I know of some that fit on this category

Even if the J122 is designed by an American NA, following a long tradition on that type of hulls, it is also as a performance cruising boat much more an European performance cruiser with the interior designed by a very good French interior designer.

Two different concepts in what regards the interior, the american one with lot's of heavy wood everywhere, a very traditional look and much less interior light, the European one light, modern and with lots of light.

I like the Bluejacket interior (even if not for me) but there are two items that are out of place; The stairs, that, under a design and integration point of view, are incredibly bad and the table, Island Packet style. that can work on Island Packets and be a trade mark but here it is just odd and not nicely integrated. Have a look:

BJ40 360° Tour

Some recent movies with the Bluejacket 40:











There is not yet any with the new version of the J122 but we can have a look at one with the previous version that has the same sailing performances. Here one competing in a top race last year.


----------



## Faster

I think that might be the first time I've seen a 'J' with teak decks.. I gather that's the Euro built model? Looks pretty nice, alright..

J boats have always been instantly 'recognizable'.. this one is departing from that, esp if the sprit pod, logo, and transom are out of view..


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> I think that might be the first time I've seen a 'J' with teak decks.. I gather that's the Euro built model? Looks pretty nice, alright..
> 
> J boats have always been instantly 'recognizable'.. this one is departing from that, esp if the sprit pod, logo, and transom are out of view..


I don't think the J122 is built in the states. The boat is built by Jcomposites in France, at least the first ones were and certainly almost all are since they are sold almost all in Europe. Some Europeans like teak decks, specially in cruising boats

J/122 Articles & Reviews

J Composite - Home - J Boats - J Composites

The J122 would have not any change to have survived as a performance cruiser with a relatively good interior in the states. That market is almost non existent there and most of the brands that make those boats in Europe or don't have dealers on the states or just make a symbolic effort since the boats are not sold.

Salona have tried and sold one boat to a very happy client that is a member of this forum, a salona 37.

Most American sailors still see does boats as race boats

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

PCP said:


> I don't think the J122 is built in the states. The boat is built by Jcomposites in France, at least the first ones were and certainly almost all are since they are sold almost all in Europe. Some Europeans like teak decks, specially in cruising boats
> 
> J/122 Articles & Reviews
> 
> J Composite - Home - J Boats - J Composites
> 
> The J122 would have not any change to have survived as a performance cruiser with a relatively good interior in the states. That market is almost non existent there and most of the brands that make those boats in Europe or don't have dealers on the states or just make a symbolic effort since the boats are not sold.
> 
> Salona have tried and sold one boat to a very happy client that is a member of this forum, a salona 37.
> 
> Most American sailors still see does boats as race boats
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The updated interior and hull lights on the J/122 immediately change my entire outlook on that boat. I would have never considered it as a performance cruiser option for myself before; now it looks highly desireable, though still shockingly expensive for what you get (don't even think about adding the carbon rig option).

At least in my part of North America, the only European brands that are having success appear to be Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hanse and, to a lesser extent, X-Yachts and Swan (really up and down according to the economy - probably mostly down right now). Otherwise, it's Catalinas, Hunters, and the occasional Alerion. J/Boats is selling J/70s and J/88s in North America, but not sure they're selling much of anything else these days.

Speaking from my own perspective, I think we are starting to experience the full impact of U.S. economic decline across the board. For the money it costs me to pay for my health insurance every year, I could be sailing a new Archambault 31, Malango 888 or Dehler 32, and I'm fortunate to be able to afford health insurance right now. Instead, I'm sailing a Laser. All around me people are struggling and concerned about keeping their jobs. Not a great climate for selling boats.

Of course, I realize that from the perspective of someone in Somalia or Bangladesh we have no reason to complain. But we're talking about selling boats, so let's agree that nobody in those countries is going to buy a performance cruiser at any price.  But I think American economic decline is one reason the market is so contracted and people are holding on to boats that are 15-25 years old, and support the rating systems that keep them "competitive".

Meanwhile, in the TJV, Bernard Stamm is showing us why we should never count him out when he has things in working order. Just unfortunate for him that he has to compete against the two top IMOCA 60 sailors in the world, on the fastest IMOCA 60 on the planet. Wonder what Armel Le Cleac'h is doing right now? And where is _Banque Populaire_?


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> ...
> 
> Speaking from my own perspective, I think we are starting to experience the full impact of U.S. economic decline across the board. For the money it costs me to pay for my health insurance every year, I could be sailing a new Archambault 31, Malango 888 or Dehler 32, and I'm fortunate to be able to afford health insurance right now. Instead, I'm sailing a Laser. All around me people are struggling and concerned about keeping their jobs. Not a great climate for selling boats.
> ...


That is not the reason regarding the full picture. In Europe the crisis is not less and sailboats even if in less number continue to sell, including performance boats. Rich guys are not buying less and we have seen a proliferation of brands making over 50ft very expensive sailboats.

That has to do with what the ones with the money do with it and in America rich guys don't buy sailboats, at least like in Europe. Also regarding retired couples or almost retired, that is one of the main market for sailboats in Europe, there are more going for that option here and while an European will want a brand new boat many Americans still think that older boats are better and will gladly spend a fortune repairing an old boat instead of buying a new one.

I think that is related with a question of status among sailors. While here an old boat is for most sailors just an old less performant design needing a lot of work and maintenance, on the States an old boat from a reputable brand is for the majority a mystic thing and having one will raise admiration among other sailors and will show that the guy is a connoisseur and will not just buy what the market has to offer but a "better" boat, some kind of rare and princely object

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Transat Jaques Fabre*



MrPelicano said:


> ....
> 
> Meanwhile, in the TJV, Bernard Stamm is showing us why we should never count him out when he has things in working order. Just unfortunate for him that he has to compete against the two top IMOCA 60 sailors in the world, on the fastest IMOCA 60 on the planet. Wonder what Armel Le Cleac'h is doing right now? And where is _Banque Populaire_?


Yes, Stamm has been great and that has nothing to do with strategy, just pure speed in bad weather. Big balls

It seems we have a winner, if nothing happen to them and another interesting race with 4. On the last 2 hours Marc and company have made the best average speed by far.

Take a look at the Mod 70 and their performance: They are passing in front of my home while the Mod 50 (and open 60) had not yet reached Finisterra

http://tracking.transat-jacques-vabre.com/fr/

It seems that in what regards multihulls size has a much bigger importance regarding speed. The M70 and M50 have a difference of 20ft and the difference in speed seems a lot more than the one between the Open 60 and 40class.

The difference in length is the same but the Open 60 are much more developed boats with a canting keel and even so their difference in performance, at least on this race and weather conditions, is considerably smaller.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

Out of thread, I know .
But since we are talking about racing, this can be entertaining and may be even useful :

Regelspiel Uli Finckh

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

I was right being afraid about the Multi50 in bad weather. Look at this movie:





Jour 2 - Avarie de flotteur - Maître Jacques... _by TransatJacquesVabre_

Maitre Jacques the Multi 50 with the two Loic tryng to make it to port.

On the Multy 50 Yves Le Blevec was overtaken by Lalou but I believe Yves is trying to maintain the boat in one piece till they get rid of bad weather. I bet on him for winning the race on Multi50.

And on the head of the race and also ahead of all Multi 50, the wonder duo:





Jour 2 - MACIF (IMOCA) -Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 _by TransatJacquesVabre_

Also some nice images taken from the 40class racer that arrived first to Roscoff, Sébastien Rogues / Fabien Delahaye





Jour 2 - GDF SUEZ (Class40) - Transat Jacques... _by TransatJacquesVabre_


----------



## PCP

*Test*



EricKLYC said:


> Out of thread, I know .
> But since we are talking about racing, this can be entertaining and may be even useful :
> 
> Regelspiel Uli Finckh
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Thanks. That is entertaining and funny.

Cheers

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

and the 40 class racers are racing again.





Jour 3 - Solidaires en Peloton (Class40... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

The ones that won the first leg, Rogues / Delahaye seem untouchable and have already a big advance. They are great sailors and his boat, a new Sam Manuard design is a bullet. On 2th and third the same places that they have occupied on the first leg, the Spanish team (Pela/Pablo) and the German/French one (Riechers and Brasseur). They are sailing respectively a 2013 Marcelino Botin and a 2012 Sam Manuard design.

If the 2013 Ker designed 40class racer seems not to be so hot as expected the one from the less know Spanish NA (Marcelino Botin) seems to be very fast allowing the all Spanish team a top performance. Of course with two boats on the podium Manuard remains one of the hottest Na from the new generation (Seascape 27).

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

Regarding the Open 60 Stamm, out of the strong winds seems to be loosing the pack that is in pursuing the leader, that are now only three. The laeader Gabart/Drejoyeux seem to have taken a radically different route option and are going in Peniche direction (my home port) and they are getting very close to it before turning to the Atlatic again.

Here, Marc's boat on the storm:





Jour 4 - Safran (IMOCA) - Transat Jacques Vabre... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

Has I had thought they had problems, namely with a furler and that's why they had lost so much time (they were 2th). They have managed to fix the problem and they are now fully operational again.

The multi 50 finally out of the storm can leave storm sailing tactics and go to full speed again. The leading ones have already overtaken all Open 60's with the exception of the leader but that should happen sun. And I was right about Yves. He was just managing the boat with care on the storm. Out of it he went to speed again, overtook Lalou and is first again.

I love that guy as a sailor, Yves Le Blevec is for many years the best skipper on the multi50 and those boats are very tricky to sail. I would love to see him on a Multi 70. By the way on the last Transat Jaques Fabre he won the race on multi 50 d teaming with...Sam Manuard, the designer of those top 40class racers. Sam is not only a top designer but a top racer, what a guy

Here Yves, managing the storm:





Jour 4 - Actual (Multi 50) - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Transat Jaques Fabre*



PCP said:


> Regarding the Open 60 Stamm, out of the strong winds seems to be loosing the pack that is in pursuing the leader, that are now only three. The laeader Gabart/Drejoyeux seem to have taken a radically different route option and are going in Peniche direction (my home port) and they are getting very close to it before turning to the Atlantic again.


Broken rudder blade for Macif explains the detour to your house, Paulo. What a shame, as they were disappearing into the sunset against the rest of the fleet. It is getting quite depressing how risky it is to race in the ocean these days, with all the floating debris that can easily damage keels and rudders, even sink boats. In the past you only worried about whales and growlers, or perhaps a floating tree trunk if you were near the mouth of a river. Now you have to deal with stuff like this:






Fortunately there are no races going from the U.S. / Canada west coast towards Asia, but it is inevitable that this sort of debris will eventually be found everywhere, making ocean sailing increasingly more dangerous.

Pity.


----------



## bobperry

Hold on:
We have the Victoria to Maui Race.
We have the Transpac.

Those are East to West races accross the Pacific towards Asia.


----------



## MrPelicano

bobperry said:


> Hold on:
> We have the Victoria to Maui Race.
> We have the Transpac.
> 
> Those are East to West races accross the Pacific towards Asia.


Bob -

Vic-Maui is probably at risk, but the TransPac and Pac Cup start quite a bit further south and head SSW, which I think is outside the predicted landfall of this particular debris field. But I'm no expert on the Northern Pacific currents, by any means.

Certainly folks who do the Swiftsure Race (I've done two of them) are already familiar with floating log risks (not to mention being run down by bulk carriers and fishing boats at night in Juan de Fuca). And I'd be nervous about the outside legs of the VanIsle 360. That's going to be truly ugly.

Don't know if anyone has ever hit a container or similar debris on the TP and PC races, but we know boats have hit whales and been sunk.

I was thinking more of Northern Pacific East-to-West - i.e., from NA West Coast to Japan (a race you'd probably never get anyone to sign up for).

Best!


----------



## PCP

*Re: Transat Jaques Fabre*



MrPelicano said:


> Broken rudder blade for Macif explains the detour to your house, Paulo. ....


I went to the Port to take some pictures and to see the boat....but they were not there. I should have looked at the race map first. By the map they were on Nazaré, the port where I used to have my boat, some 15Nnm North of Peniche, 15Nm by the sea but a lot more by land.

Anyway even if they had been there amazingly they had already repaired and they had sailed away a little before 18 30. That should be the time I arrived there but as there is an our of difference and that's French time they should have sailed away before 17.30 so I would have missed them anyway.

You think that race map can have such a big error regarding land position? It worked quite well regarding France, I mean, Le Havre and Roscoff.

Anyway the good news is that the wonder duo is back on the fight again and I believe they they will have not a big delay over the others. In fact when they were pointing here, even if I thought that was odd I thought they were doing that for having a better wind angle and certainly they will are going to be faster then the others even if they are more far away.

Anyway the race needed this. These two have an unfair advantage: The better boat and the two best sailors. on my book that is not fair

Regards

Paulo

Ps: they have updated the map- they are making 19.8K while all the others are making about 16K

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

By the way, the Mod 70 are making over 26K That's also unfair They go like a train.





Jour 4 - Edmond de Rothschild (MOD70) - Transat... _por TransatJacquesVabre_


----------



## PCP

*The postman non stop sailing circumnavigation.*

I don't know if I had mentioned the extraordinary story of a French postman that had a dream to circumnavigate?

He was 52 years old and like most of us with that age he worked. His job: postman, a popular one on the French back country. So he started to think how he could manage to circumnavigate and keep his job and found out that it had to be a non stop circumnavigation.

For that he had to work without any vacations for 4 hears to join the needed time to circumnavigate. With the 30 days vacations of the 5th year he would have 150 days. It had to be enough. So he was on schedule, to circumnavigate non stop in 150 days, not because he wanted to beat any record but because he could lose his job.

He had not much money so the best he could get was a 20 year old 34ft Jeanneau. It had to do.

Don't ask me how without vacations he managed time to prepare the boat but he was helped by the French sailing passion. Many helped him and the number of people that was on the port to see the unknown postman sail away was a proof of that.

His name: Alain Maigan, he did not make it in 150 days but on 185 days (26,100 nm) but it seems that the French post service did not fired him.

Here you have a very nice movie about his story. It is in French but the images speak for themselves:






Now, it is not to expect that a simple non stop circumnavigation would be enough for such a character. His new project for next year with the same Boat?

A circumnavigation non stop by the wrong way, against the dominant winds : East to west.

He is looking for sponsors. If you want to help:

Alain Maignan 11 mois en Orbite autour de la Planète "Terre et Eau" contre vents et marées - Schouten de retour du Mille Sabords | alainmaignan.sportblog.fr


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

and Lalou capsized. He was trying to recover over Yves (the leader) and both boats sailed in the night almost side by side and at eye sight view. I have said those Muti50 were very fast but tricky to sail at full blast and that's what happen:

They sailed with 17k wind at full speed: *Ironically, after surviving a Biscay gale, it was in more manageable but gusty, shifty trade winds conditions that Lalou Roucayrol and Mayeul Riffet on Arkema - Aquitaine capsized at around 2230hrs (French time) on Sunday with the Portuguese trade winds blowing from the N'ly sector at around 20kts. The fast, gusty conditions proved to be the undoing of the multihull in conditions which often cause problems for multihulls, flying downwind. The gennaker sheet would only need to have snagged with a bad set of waves when the evening visibility was poorer.

Yann Eliès (FenêtréA Cardinal) who was close when the trimaran capsized comfirmed to race direction what had happened and that the two skippers were uninjured and did not want immediate help. Eliès was less than a mile away when it happened. The duo, in coordination with their technical team, will set up a tow to Portugal. Weather conditions are not due to become any worse off Lisbon in the coming days.
*

You have the full story here (French):

Mayeul Riffet : "On va aller sous l'eau" | Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 : Le Havre - Itajai | Novembre 2013

Les circonstances du chavirage | Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 : Le Havre - Itajai | Novembre 2013

This video was taken some hours before ans shows the two M50 battling. That battle was going on for a long time and Lalou (the one that capsized) was ahead:





Jour 4 - FenetreA Cardinal/Arkema - Région... _by TransatJacquesVabre_


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

Macif and the two star skippers after having lost 4 hours in Peniche (Portuguese Port) are back on the leading pack that pursues the Leader, now Safran, with Marc and Pascal. After having solved that problem with the furler here they are having a very good performance. Macif is now near Stamm and in some hours I believe it is going to overtake it.

On the 40class Rogues and Delahaye maintain the leadership but the 2th is Riechers/Brasseur and they are closing. Two Manuards designed boats leading the race. The Spanish team that was second fall way back on the classification and I think they have some problems on the boat.

As a curiosity Sam Manuard, the designer of the two leading boats is racing too, not as the main skipper but giving an hand to Mura, a less experienced Italian racer that is racing with one of his boats (2012). They had been in 8th place (not bad at all) but they are now losing time and are going to do a pit stop in Spain to take care of a mast fixation problem.

Also the leaders are going to make a pit stop. Probably they are losing some time to Riechers because they have not any wind information:

*"Not long after they left Roscoff in the lead of the Class40 fleet on Sunday morning at 0400hrs (CET/France) French duo Sébastien Rogues and Fabien Delahaye realised they had lost the two essential wind vanes off the top of their mast. "*

Also a pit stop for the Spanish team to take care of the problem that has making them slower: The starboard rudder was hit and needs replacement.

On the M50, now that Lalou is out, the 2th place belongs to Le Roux that pursuits Yves Le Blevec. Yves announced that is going to make a pit stop in Madeira so things are going to be hot in what regards leadership:

*"Class leaders of the Multi50s, Actual, sailed by Yves Le Blévec and Kito de Pavant have confirmed that they have decided to make a technical stop in Madeira which lies 160 miles away pretty much on their direct course. They plan to re-instal part of their wind instruments at the top of the mast. "*


----------



## bobperry

Here are some images from my newest design project for an East Coast sailor.
I hope Paulo can make these images more presentable for me (please).

The client currently owns a Hinckley SW42. He wanted a boat with more DWL. I kept the displ the same as his current boat. He has a bridge he has to clear to get to his cruising area and that restricted rig height. We are also draft restricted due to the area where the client sails.


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> Here are some images from my newest design project for an East Coast sailor.
> I hope Paulo can make these images more presentable for me (please).
> 
> The client currently owns a Hinckley SW42. He wanted a boat with more DWL. I kept the displ the same as his current boat. He has a bridge he has to clear to get to his cruising area and that restricted rig height. We are also draft restricted due to the area where the client sails.


Purty.... I like the SW42 similarities... new and 'improved' 

Upsized your images too..


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Faster. I appreciate that.


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> Thanks Faster. I appreciate that.


No worries!

Is the ballast shoe on the keel all the ballast? or is there internal ballast in the keel molding too?


----------



## bobperry

The keel you see on these images is what we call a "place holder". In other words we have not really attacked the keel design because we do not have a weight study yet. But we want to complete the image so we give it a keel that I think will be very close to the final keel design. There is a natural sequence to how these items are aproached.


----------



## PCP

*Bob Perry 46.2*

Nice design Bob.

I hate that dinghy place. It does nothing good to the boat aesthetics and it will take a lot of light to the interior but probably with such a narrow beam it has no space to be stored forward, I mean if the dinghy was stored there the lateral space available on the deck would be probably too small for a safe passage to the bow.

Have you 3d drawings of the interior? What is the weight of the boat? The weight you have in the drawings refers to what (I cannot read the small letters)?

That's a pity the needed small draft. That boat screams for a decent draft and a fast foiled keel, one that keeps the weight down, maximizes upwind performance, keeping the wet surface and drag low.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
The client currently carries that dinghy on the foredeck. This is a big improvment over the foredeck. This is his 10 year old daughter's sailing dink and it will see a lot of use. He does not like to tow it. Where I live we usually tow our dinks. This client knows exactly how he will use his boat and he really likes his current boat. He just wanted more DWL so he could get better speed. He also wanted the freeboard as low as I could get.

We are just now getting started on 3D drawings for the interior. I'll post them when we have them.


----------



## blt2ski

I agree with Paulo on the placement of the dinghy.......BUT.........foredeck is not aways were one wants to put one. Nor is having davits with one hanging off the stern. Boat does not appear to be long enough to go for a rear garage as some have. That seems to start in the upper 40 to low 50' range............

I am sure the client will like the boat. For me I would want ALL the DWL I could get out of the boat, along with ALL the draft I can get........then again, I am all of 10 miles south of BP, usually in 300-600'+ of water........draft is not an issue.

Now we are talking personal tastes etc. 

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Here are a couple of the latest renderings.


----------



## copacabana

Bob, another beauty!!


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Copa.


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## blt2ski

Bob,

I am seeing what appears to be a flip down off the stern. Is that an ingress/egress off the stern? kind of a best way to keep the classic look, yet still have an option of easy stern access when one needs this? An interesting way of solving that issue if so.

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
Yes. This will be my fourth "flip down". Remember young feller I did a flip down 30 years ago on the Islander Freeport 36. This is not my first fist fight.

Both JAKATAN and CATARI have flip downs.


----------



## blt2ski

I have not seen one quite to this extent. I've seen a few tartans with something equal, but not sure I am willing to say the same. As those boats could easily have been walk thru transoms. The one you are doing does not look like a simple version. 

Still a neat option..........


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## PCP

*FIPOFIX the new mad idea from Norbert Sedlacek*

Norbert Sedlacek is a true sailor and also an adventurer. This is the adventurer part: For making publicity to a new material he is going (or trying) to circumnavigate the Atlantic in both directions (to america and back) on a kind of mini-mini, I mean if you think that a mini is a mini Open60, than this one is a mini-mini, do you get it. No? You will understand when you see the mini-mini:
D








Well, he could not have chosen a worst year to attempt this madness. I hope he will make it. It seems that the objective is to have a really Open60 made of this material...I hope the price would not be too high

FIPOFIX®-Positioning Technology - FIPOFIX® (EN)


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## bobperry

Some eye candy for your breakfast.


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## Faster

Bob.. please sort out a Photobuket acct... these images are too sublime for thumbnails!!


----------



## outbound

that slight tumblehome to the stern is pure poetry. very sweet. ?dimensions and views of underbody


----------



## robelz

The Minis should start at 3pm but start ist postponed again. Next try is tomorrow at 9am...


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## bobperry

Out:
Go the the sail plan I posted the dims are all there. Underbody is shown on other renderings posted here.

Faster:
Ok, I'll do that today. Will you be around if I need help?


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## bobperry

Ok, I'll try. This is scary.


----------



## bobperry

****ski!
I did it.
I'm a genious at this stuff. Amazing.
Does this work with other web sites?
Thanks Faster.


----------



## MrPelicano

Faster said:


> Bob.. please sort out a Photobuket acct... these images are too sublime for thumbnails!!


Indeed, I like the look of the boat much more in this view. It appears simultaneously classic and aggressive (i.e., high performance). Moreso than in the side views, IMHO.

Nicely done.


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## bobperry

You may have created a monster!


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> The Minis should start at 3pm but start ist postponed again. Next try is tomorrow at 9am...


Yee the mini are postponed bur the mini-mini sailed away: two possible conclusions: The race committee of the mini racers is too cautious or Norbert Sedlacek is really mad. Time will tell.

regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: FIPOFIX the new mad idea from Norbert Sedlacek*



PCP said:


> Norbert Sedlacek is a true sailor and also an adventurer. This is the adventurer part: For making publicity to a new material he is going (or trying) to circumnavigate the Atlantic in both directions (to america and back) on a kind of mini-mini, I mean if you think that a mini is a mini Open60, than this one is a mini-mini, do you get it. No? You will understand when you see the mini-mini:
> D
> 
> 
> 
> FIPOFIX®-Positioning Technology - FIPOFIX® (EN)


Paulo - Actually, I think this Open 16 concept might be a stroke of genius from Sedlacek, if it performs as expected. There is a place in the market, I believe, for a true entry-level Open-class solo ocean racing design for those who want to get into the sport but don't have Mini 6.50 budgets.

As you suggest, however, the key question will be the cost. If I read the Fipofix web site correctly, the technology is supposed to yield stronger and lighter carbon layouts, and require thinner, lighter marine plywood sections, than conventional builds. I take it that also means the use of less resin in the process, which should reduce costs. If someone could do an Open 16 for around €25-30K + sails & electronics, I think you'd hit the sweet spot. Doing it as a single-sourced One Design, built at McConaghy, and shipped to Europe and the UK 4-to-a-container, you might just hit that target.

I'm definitely going to follow this project closely. Thanks very much for bringing it to our attention. Sedlacek departed last Sunday for NYC. If I'm not traveling when he finally arrives I will go down to see the boat.


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> Bob.. please sort out a Photobuket acct... these images are too sublime for thumbnails!!


That is a very nice design, one that I would not mind to have (with a deep draft modern keel) if I had money for marinas and maintenance. Both are related more with boat size than with wet area. I like this kind of designs that mix classical forms with modern hulls. Of course this boat is for a client and he may just wanted the boat like this but regarding a more broad market this boats by modern standards lacks interior natural light and outside views, I men port hulls.

The port hulls could be dispensed to maintain the classic style but more interior light could be added without having any effect on the boat line, mainly zenithall light even if the cabin ports are really small too.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Contest 42 CS*

The very traditional and famous Dutch mark launched a new boat a 42ft boat.

The brand that is a competitor on the HR, Najad, Oyster and Amel market, I mean luxury blue water boats, has been concentrated (as the others) on the upper markets with bigger boats. A 42 is a kind of revisit to its origins and the boat is meant for other type of sailors: Those that are rich but not millionaires.

I had already talked about this Georg Nissen design and I have to say that the real thing looks a lot better than on the designs:







Very nice interior with plenty natural light.

The boat is light (11 000kg) it has an average beam for a modern cruiser (4.15m) it has a considerable draft (2.20m -1.80 in option) and a modern bulbed keel. For this type of boat it is going to be a fast boat. The hull looks very well designed.











This is a semi custom boat and it has a very nice particularity: It offers three different rigging options, including one for solo sailing.


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

Sensational the GDF Suez pit stop on Spain. It looked like a F1 pit stop The boat not Bolton stopped on the most favorable spot as the speed of the repair (on top of the mast) was fantastic. the boat remains well ahead on the 40class race.

Also an impressive pit stop from the leader of the M50 in Porto Santo. Yves lost the leadership for Le Roux but it is really close.

On the Open60 curiously Gabart did not manage to overtake Stamm. This one felling the pressure responded impressively overtaking Beyou. Marc continues leading and he is the one that has been faster on the last 24 hours followed by Stamm and Riou. But not on the last 2 hours where Stamm was the faster by a big difference to the leader (10.3K to 17.4K).

Right now Stamm is the fastest and he comes like a bullet over Marc and Riou. Fantastic race

A video with Safran and Marc on the leading boat. As usual it is impressive the speed (24K) and easiness ;: one at the tiller without much work and the other making a movie





Jour 5 - Safran IMOCA) - Transat Jacques Vabre... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> ****ski!
> I did it.
> I'm a genious at this stuff. Amazing.
> Does this work with other web sites?
> Thanks Faster.


Da Nada! .. I believe it should work on other forums unless they don't allow links. Beautiful renderings!


----------



## robelz

Maxi-trimaran Sodebo - Record du tour du monde en solitaire

Thomas Coville on SODEBO going for the round the world record...


----------



## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> Maxi-trimaran Sodebo - Record du tour du monde en solitaire
> 
> Thomas Coville on SODEBO going for the round the world record...


Well, I'm glad that all this bizarre weather is going to benefit someone.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Transat Jaques Fabre*



PCP said:


> Sensational the GDF Suez pit stop on Spain. It looked like a F1 pit stop The boat not Bolton stopped on the most favorable spot as the speed of the repair (on top of the mast) was fantastic. the boat remains well ahead on the 40class race.
> 
> Also an impressive pit stop from the leader of the M50 in Porto Santo. Yves lost the leadership for Le Roux but it is really close.
> 
> On the Open60 curiously Gabart did not manage to overtake Stamm. This one felling the pressure responded impressively overtaking Beyou. Marc continues leading and he is the one that has been faster on the last 24 hours followed by Stamm and Riou. But not on the last 2 hours where Stamm was the faster by a big difference to the leader (10.3K to 17.4K).
> 
> Right now Stamm is the fastest and he comes like a bullet over Marc and Riou. Fantastic race
> 
> A video with Safran and Marc on the leading boat. As usual it is impressive the speed (24K) and easiness ;: one at the tiller without much work and the other making a movie


Both Stamm and Gabart are reeling in Riou and LeCam. Stamm is 11 miles back and Gabart only 29 miles. I predict it will be only a matter of time before we are back to the Macif vs. Cheminées Poujoulat battle. Appears that Stamm has recovered his health, while Macif is simply picking up where they left off before the Portugal pit stop.


----------



## bobperry

Faster:
It's working like a charm EVERYWHERE. I look like I know what I am doing. Many thanks for pushing me into this. Now I don't have to go running to Paulo and you for help.


----------



## PCP

*Thomas Coville attempt for the absolute solo circumnavigation record :*



robelz said:


> Maxi-trimaran Sodebo - Record du tour du monde en solitaire
> 
> Thomas Coville on SODEBO going for the round the world record...


Big balls. That is even harder than on a monohull. Coville is a great sailor that has the bad luck to be contemporary with Joyon and the "old" man has beat him almost in everything (with a similar boat). No he looks for revenge and will try to take away Joyon biggest record.

That will not be easy, as Pelicano says this year can be a great year for records...provided the boat stays in one piece and that is not going to be easy. Good luck to him he really needs it.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Transat Jaques Fabre - Great movie on Open60*



MrPelicano said:


> Both Stamm and Gabart are reeling in Riou and LeCam. Stamm is 11 miles back and Gabart only 29 miles. I predict it will be only a matter of time before we are back to the Macif vs. Cheminées Poujoulat battle. Appears that Stamm has recovered his health, while Macif is simply picking up where they left off before the Portugal pit stop.


For the time being you are right, you only forget about Stamm that keeps pushing, but just for the time being. As I have said from the beginning you have to join to that duo Marc, if he has not more problems with the furler.

As I see it in 6 hours Marc will be ahead again, him or Stamm. He and Beyou are on the best course with more wind pressure. I predict Stamm is going to lead the race for some time and then Marc will close on him and maybe be able to overtake.

Let'see

While we wait have a look, you are going to like it: Fear? Seasickness?






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*CFS: Carbon fiber stone.*



MrPelicano said:


> Paulo - Actually, I think this Open 16 concept might be a stroke of genius from Sedlacek, if it performs as expected. There is a place in the market, I believe, for a true entry-level Open-class solo ocean racing design for those who want to get into the sport but don't have Mini 6.50 budgets.
> 
> As you suggest, however, the key question will be the cost. If I read the Fipofix web site correctly, the technology is supposed to yield stronger and lighter carbon layouts, and require thinner, lighter marine plywood sections, than conventional builds. I take it that also means the use of less resin in the process, which should reduce costs. If someone could do an Open 16 for around €25-30K + sails & electronics, I think you'd hit the sweet spot. Doing it as a single-sourced One Design, built at McConaghy, and shipped to Europe and the UK 4-to-a-container, you might just hit that target.
> 
> ....


I don't think you can do an Ocean racer smaller than the Mini6.50 not on account of the boat but on account of seaworthiness and safety. You have some guys doing the Pogo 2 in America and the boat is not expensive for an Ocean racer.

Regarding the material that's another story. That's a CFS (Carbon Fiber Stone) material and the first I herd about CFS was on the Salona shipyard. In fact they use the material, not with volcanic stone but with granite that seems even strange to me. In fact if you order a Salona (any of them) in IBC specifications (infusion based carbon) the bulkheads are made in CFS, using granite. Take a look at the movie and stop exactly om 1.00 minute and you will see. All bulkheads are made with that material. It is not painted black it is just its color:






I saw the material there, it comes in big panels and its weird, black as the night, very light and very strong.

I looked at the time on internet searching for the material and I found very little. It says well from Salona since they are using it on top performance boats for years. Maybe because they are a small subdivision of a huge plastics and fibers manufacturer they have access to information and top materials in what regards the plastic/fibers development.

You should see my face when they asked to me if I wanted granite bulkheads on my boat

Some more information:

Towards a new Stone Age

http://technocarbon.de/presse/SD_CM_02_08_technocarbon.pdf

PS: that boat can have also an interior made of a lighter material (and more expensive) but it seems to me that it is a normal interior. The mast, boom and wheels are carbon but it has also teak decks so it is not a top racer. Some guy that wanted a fast but comfortable boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 505*

What a waste The boat looks good, the hull looks nice and I am pretty sure it is a good sailing boat:



But just compare these two interiors:





the first photo is the Hanse 505 interior the second one the one the Dufour 500 interior.

They say on the Hanse site that the interior was designed by the best interior designers


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 30 sail test*

Lot's of posts today but how can I not post about this as soon as I see it? Toby's sail test on the Pogo 30: It seem like he was impressed.

14K true and 9K on a 30ft cruising boat? yes that is impressive

He says that the Pogo 30 is a new level of fun


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

and Stamm is leading the race on Open 60 Gabart maintains about the same distance to the leader but have won 10nm to Riou. Marc seems to have problems again on that furler. His boat is slower than the one from Beyou and that's not natural.

Anyway it seems that what was shown yesterday on the weather prevision was not what happened. Tricky routing. They have not such a big lateral separation and however Marc more to the west had not so much pressure as Stamm, that is in between him (laterally) and the ones on the leading pack but those had more pressure than Marc but less than stamm. And it will continue very tricky, it seems that there are more wind to the west but with some patches with slower wind on the way.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

Anyway this has been a very fast race and they have chances to beat the race record.

In the 40 class race they are getting strong wind and are all over the place. The leaders are the same but Riechers (second) seems to be closing on the leader (Rogues) . Most of all the Spanish team (Pella and Pablo) are making a hell of a recover after having lost considerable time replacing a rudder. I bet they will be third soon.

On another register, it seems that ker has yet to learn one or two things about designing solo racers. His boat is way back on the classification.

The first six days of race:





ENG - Summary 6 day race - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: CFS: Carbon fiber stone.*



PCP said:


> I don't think you can do an Ocean racer smaller than the Mini6.50 not on account of the boat but on account of seaworthiness and safety. You have some guys doing the Pogo 2 in America and the boat is not expensive for an Ocean racer.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The last time I looked, the pricing on the Open Sailing Pogo 2's built in Los Angeles was about $100K / €75K ex-sails and electronics. Obviously used boats can be had for as little as $35K / €25K if you start looking at Pogo 1's or other older Series boats. And agree that it's not a lot of money for a bonafide ocean racing boat.

But if the Open 16 concept proves successful in handling a roundtrip Atlantic crossing in winter, and the price could come in near the low end of used Mini 6.50's, I think they could be viable for entry level offshore solo racing. Perhaps not for a Transat or even a Hawaii race (though Transpac and Pacific Cup weather is typically quite benign, by Atlantic standards - or even Bay of Biscay). For example, perfect for a Bermuda 1-2 and similar. And the cost of ownership for a 16ft boat is definitely going to be lower than for a 21ft boat, as well as being easier to transport.

Anyway, I've seen enough of these project to not get my hopes up that anything will come of it, aside from the materials technology aspects, which are probably the most important parts, in this case.

Fortunately, the actual Mini Transat has finally started, and the Proto favorites jumped immediately to the front, as expected. Boidevezi was leading Pedote by a small margin, last time I looked, with Marie, Gahinet and Sugre in hot pursuit. Haven't consulted the metéo yet, but probably only a matter of time before Pedote disappears into the distance.

Just as Macif will do within the next 24-48 hours, notwithstanding the charging Stamm (now leading) or tenacious Riou/Le Cam or Paulo's favorites, Guillemot/Bidégorry (who are 50 miles back of Gabart/MichDesj and 75 behind Stamm/Legros). 

Speaking of Stamm, I really believe that if he'd had his boat sorted for the last Vendée Globe he would have given the two VPLP boats a much closer challenge. It was clear within the first week or so that his JuanK boat was not ready to race, and he ended up breaking things by having to push hard to compensate - even little things like his coffee grinder winch failing, caused big problems. And, of course, the charging system. But that's part of the game: Macif and Banque Pop were totally sorted, having benefited from the incredible support teams built around both boats, and training together for so long. Now that Stamm seems to have his boat in order - and his health - we are seeing why he is a man be be reckoned with. Probably not many faster in an IMOCA 60 - indeed, perhaps only Gabart, Desjoyeux and Le Cleac'h.

Finally, as to the misfortune of the Ker Class 40 Concise 18, another case of a boat not fully sorted, having arrived from the yard only a few months earlier and never having been put to the test in these kinds of conditions. In this case, their retirement appears to be related to rudder failure, but unclear whether they struck something or if it was structural - i.e., stress failure, etc. Looking forward to reading more on their web site. My guess is that Jason Ker will figure this out, eventually, if he wants to. Sam Manuard, on the other hand, has years and years of first-hand experience how to design fast shorthanded ocean racing boats, so no surprise that his designs are dominating now - I mean, really, really dominating - as in they are in a completely different class of performance, it seems.


----------



## PCP

*Sun Fast 3600*

A video about theSunfast 3600 by Voile and voiliers, that's interesting but it is in French.

Anyway if you don't understand French you can see the interior that is one of a racing boat. Much worse than the one from the Pogo 30 for cruising and certainly a good one for ocean racing.

They take the opportunity of a delivery for test sailing the boat and they give some numbers:

15K trw downwind with spy asymmetric - 8.9K speed

15K trw 38º of trw - 7.2K

Now you guys don't start with ideas that the Pogo 30 is faster downwind (14K - 8/9K). I saw the movie and the Pogo was sailing on completely flat water, conditions that are not possible in non sheltered waters and on the Sunfast we are talking about an oceanic sail while on a delivery, so probably with typical 15k sea conditions.

Of course comparatively the Pogo is much more maximized downwind and compromised upwind than the Sunfast and the measure they give for the SF at a very tight angle to the wind (38º TRW - 7.2K) seems almost too good to be possible. Just as comparison a Farr 40 racer with 14K TRW and 37.6º makes 5.95K and with 16k and 36.7 - 6.01K (at 52º - 8.38K).

Incredibly good upwind performance in a boat that is slightly more balanced downwind than upwind and slightly more for solo than crewed racing. And the boat is not expensive too. I believe it is going to sell very well, for this type of boat and it will be a good racer with short crew or with a full crew.

They say also that the boat is very precise on the tiller and that everything works very well in what regards rigging. A great boat no doubt:






and also an English one:


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*



MrPelicano said:


> ....
> 
> Just as Macif will do within the next 24-48 hours, notwithstanding the charging Stamm (now leading) or tenacious Riou/Le Cam or Paulo's favorites, Guillemot/Bidégorry (who are 50 miles back of Gabart/MichDesj and 75 behind Stamm/Legros).
> 
> ..
> Finally, as to the misfortune of the Ker Class 40 Concise 18, another case of a boat not fully sorted, having arrived from the yard only a few months earlier and never having been put to the test in these kinds of conditions. In this case, their retirement appears to be related to rudder failure, but unclear whether they struck something or if it was structural - i.e., stress failure, etc. Looking forward to reading more on their web site.
> 
> My guess is that Jason Ker will figure this out, eventually, if he wants to. Sam Manuard, on the other hand, has years and years of first-hand experience how to design fast shorthanded ocean racing boats, so no surprise that his designs are dominating now - I mean, really, really dominating - as in they are in a completely different class of performance, it seems.


And there you go again I never said that Marc was my favorite for the race. Let's get it straight. What you said was this:



MrPelicano said:


> ...A lot of talent in that fleet, but unless Bernard Stamm can get "Cheminées Poujoulat" to perform properly, the only competition I see for "Macif" will come from the wily veterans Vincent Riou and the irrepressible Jean Le Cam,....


and I replied:



PCP said:


> I think you are forgetting Safran and Marc Guillemot, Pascal Bidégorry. I believe that those two are among the ones that can win.
> ....


I never said they were my favorites. I have been calling the Gabart/Desjoyeux the wonder team and to me as to all that know anything about sailing they are clearly the favorites. I had said also that it was unfair to the others to join those two on the same team. There should be a law against that

It seems I was right since Marc, that was delayed with problems on the furler, managed to lead the race when they solved those problems. Unfortunately I believe the problems returned again, that's the only explanation I can find for him to be on the same course and slower than Beyou since his boat is faster.

On the next two days strategy will be very important because they have very little wind ahead. Riou seems to me the one in better position followed by Gabart. The ones more to the West will have probably more problems and lower speed, but we never know if the weather map they give to us is correct. Yesterday wasn't

.....

Regarding to be logical Sam Manuard boats to be the fastest 40class racers, it is not logical at all.

The greatest boat designers, specialized in this type of boats have boats designed by them racing, some, many. They are older, more experienced and have huge resources at their disposition, from tank testing to CFD top programs and CFD specialists working with them. I am talking about Guillaume Verdier, Finot/Conq, Marc Lombard, Owen and Clarck, Bruce Farr, Tom Humphries and J Valer.

Compared to them Sam is a kind of an Hippie that is half the time racing and half the time have fun sailing...and designing boats. As a NA he is very small compared with all those heavy heights...and also younger. Very talented no doubt.

He is a clear example of those bright guys that started racing on minis racers made and designed by them (and winning) that later took a NA course and used the knowledge and all his racing experience to design fast boats. If you want a parallel you have one in David Raison that is yet designing minis...but not for long, I believe.

Regarding KER 40class racer rudder problem, it seems they did not touch anything. A building or design problem it seems (they have more information in French):

Concise 8 : les raisons de l?abandon | Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 : Le Havre - Itajai | Novembre 2013

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Bob Perry 46.2*

Bob, now that you know how to post decent pictures I can see that you have two winches on the mast. For what purpose?



[/QUOTE]

The sails including reefing are not entirely run from the cockpit?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: CFS: Carbon fiber stone.*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> 
> Fortunately, the actual Mini Transat has finally started, and the Proto favorites jumped immediately to the front, as expected. Boidevezi was leading Pedote by a small margin, last time I looked, with Marie, Gahinet and Sugre in hot pursuit. Haven't consulted the metéo yet, but probably only a matter of time before Pedote disappears into the distance.
> 
> ...


No Pedote keeps on fighting for 2nd. I would think that with strong downwind wind his bath tub boat would be faster but it seems it has a very similar performance regarding the main rivals. Maybe the bigger advantage comes when more stability is needed: on a beam reach or even upwind in certain conditions with considerable wind pressure.

Fact is that Boidevezi played masterfully in what regards strategy in the beginning of the race following a lonely course and winning some advantage...but he is not losing it. Lots of wind ahead. It is going to be a great race....with a lousy coverage: where is the starting video?

http://www.minitransat.fr/cartographie

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

Great video from Energa:





Jour 7 - Energa -Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 _por TransatJacquesVabre_

On the head of the race on Open60 the fight is read hot with Riou leading after having overtaken Stamm. Gabart is closing bit by bit, slowly but persistently the distance to the leader that is now of just 15Nm.

http://tracking.transat-jacques-vabre.com/fr/

That distance had already been 42Nm and I bet that many would think the Wonder team would recover faster. This slow recovery had certainly shown to the others on the head of the race that they can fight with Gabart and Desjoyeux.

On the 40class things are more interesting with the Riechers closing in


----------



## robelz

Riechers closing in? He lost more than 20 miles tonight... Being 46 miles behind the leader he will need serious problems on GDF to have a chance to win.


----------



## chall03

While we are talking mini's, can I plug one very gutsy young Aussie girl who is giving it one hell of a go.

KATRINA HAM RACING » Chasing the dream and the rollercoaster ride that comes with it!

Not a form of racing that is well known or supported over here, she struggles to get any sponsorship and worked very hard to be there. Good on her. Far gutsier than I.


----------



## robelz

What happened to Stamm? In the 11AM ranking he ist 50 miles behind Gabart and even 65 behind Riou!?


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: CFS: Carbon fiber stone.*



PCP said:


> No Pedote keeps on fighting for 2nd. I would think that with strong downwind wind his bath tub boat would be faster but it seems it has a very similar performance regarding the main rivals. Maybe the bigger advantage comes when more stability is needed: on a beam reach or even upwind in certain conditions with considerable wind pressure.
> 
> Fact is that Boidevezi played masterfully in what regards strategy in the beginning of the race following a lonely course and winning some advantage...but he is not losing it. Lots of wind ahead. It is going to be a great race....with a lousy coverage: where is the starting video?
> 
> Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Au contraire, mon ami Paulo! Pedote put his foot down and is now leading the fleet, with Boidevezi dropped from the peloton and falling behind by nearly 23 miles. Marie is holding on as best he can, 4.4 miles back, but the gap is widening between the scow and the old school. 

I'm very impressed with Justine Mettraux's performance in the Series class, where she's hanging tough in second place with Simon Koster. But who is this Aymeric Belloir (810) fellow in the lead? I confess I'm not familiar with him and apologize if I should be. 

Obviously, in a one-legged race of over 3,000 miles what's happening right now doesn't mean much. Many a lead has quickly evaporated with the changing weather patterns, but I don't think the ITCZ is going to be much of a factor in this year's race, since they are not finishing in Brazil and, therefore, not going south of the equator. So if Pedote can pile up a big enough lead and avoid breaking something, this should be his race to lose. Very exciting, nonetheless.

Meanwhile, over in the TJV, Stamm and Beyou have been dropped by the blazingly fast Gabart, who is now breathing down the neck of Riou/Le Cam, just under 17 miles in the lead. By tomorrow morning the universe will be set right again and Macif will be disappearing into the distance. In boats so closely matched, the Gabart / Desjoyeux performance is all the more incredible. Would love to hear the conversations on Cheminées Poujoulat and Maître Coq. Probably looking up the phone number of VPLP.


----------



## zdamen

Hi guys,

I've been a little bit absent these few months, but for good reasons. I've been sailing my Dufour 36P, and now, 6 months and some regattas after, I can give some feedback on the boat.

First of all, it's not a easy boat to get accustomed to. It will take a bit of time to start understanding the boat and how to sail it properly. After that, even a novice sailor like my self can sail it fast, and yes, it is a fast boat.

In regard of it's cruising abilities, there's not much to say: it ful·fills what is expected. Not more not less. It's more than enough for the occasional 2 week vacation with a family of 4 or 5, but it can take up to 7 adults if they are up to it. It's a mass market boat, so the quality is what it is, but no major problems until know.

Regarding it's racing capabilities, I think they also meet what it was expected. The boat is fast, easy to sail, and surprisingly good upwind, although some tuning was required until we found the setup.

The main thing we have found over these last regattas is that the boat need weight, needs a full crew, even on light winds (10-15 knots) to perform well. All the maneuvering (with the asymmetric) is very easy, you don't need a lot of man power for that, but you need the weight on the board.

One other thing of notice is the tremendous power the big mainsail gives to the boat. Be sure you have a good and experienced sailor handling the main trimming. And be prepared to reef the main early (25knts).

Although we've only been in some club races, we've been very competitive and successful in the regattas and we are very satisfied with the performance of the boat.

We are now starting to upgrade it and tune it up for 2014 season, were we will see if the boat is really competitive or not.

Some photos and a couple of videos*.

Cheers,

P.S. Paulo, I know I owe you. As soon as possible, will try to make it right…

* Sailnet doesn't allow me to post pictures or videos. I'll send them to PCP


----------



## MrPelicano

zdamen said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've been a little bit absent these few months, but for good reasons. I've been sailing my Dufour 36P, and now, 6 months and some regattas after, I can give some feedback on the boat.
> 
> First of all, it's not a easy boat to get accustomed to. It will take a bit of time to start understanding the boat and how to sail it properly. After that, even a novice sailor like my self can sail it fast, and yes, it is a fast boat.
> 
> In regard of it's cruising abilities, there's not much to say: it ful·fills what is expected. Not more not less. It's more than enough for the occasional 2 week vacation with a family of 4 or 5, but it can take up to 7 adults if they are up to it. It's a mass market boat, so the quality is what it is, but no major problems until know.
> 
> Regarding it's racing capabilities, I think they also meet what it was expected. The boat is fast, easy to sail, and surprisingly good upwind, although some tuning was required until we found the setup.
> 
> The main thing we have found over these last regattas is that the boat need weight, needs a full crew, even on light winds (10-15 knots) to perform well. All the maneuvering (with the asymmetric) is very easy, you don't need a lot of man power for that, but you need the weight on the board.
> 
> One other thing of notice is the tremendous power the big mainsail gives to the boat. Be sure you have a good and experienced sailor handling the main trimming. And be prepared to reef the main early (25knts).
> 
> Although we've only been in some club races, we've been very competitive and successful in the regattas and we are very satisfied with the performance of the boat.
> 
> We are now starting to upgrade it and tune it up for 2014 season, were we will see if the boat is really competitive or not.
> 
> Some photos and a couple of videos*.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> P.S. Paulo, I know I owe you. As soon as possible, will try to make it right&#8230;
> 
> * Sailnet doesn't allow me to post pictures or videos. I'll send them to PCP


Congratulations! The Dufour 36P is a beautiful boat and certainly has a very good racing pedigree in ORC. Please continue to share more about what works and what doesn't. The boat is on my shortlist of potential performance cruisers.


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*



robelz said:


> What happened to Stamm? In the 11AM ranking he ist 50 miles behind Gabart and even 65 behind Riou!?


Look at the video



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> ... By tomorrow morning the universe will be set right again and Macif will be disappearing into the distance. In boats so closely matched, the Gabart / Desjoyeux performance is all the more incredible. ...


That's your turn to be wrong

Riou had stopped the recovery from Gabart and even won some miles. In last post I sad Riou was on the better position and now it is even more so in what regards everybody including Gabart. It is amazing the importance that a relatively small lateral distance can have.

As I have also previewed the group more to the west was going to lose and that was the case, including Stamm.

Stamm, Marc and Beyou are really close and form a second group at already some distance to the leading boats. Their wind pressure is much less and they are losing and will continue losing to the two leaders. Look at what happened to them yesterday:





Jour 8 - Maître CoQ (IMOCA) - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

Gabart is at 17nm from Riou while the other three are at about 80nm.

Amazingly good rooting by Riou that not only does not make mistakes as it has always the boat on the right course to get the better possible conditions. Great race.

&#8230;.

On 40 class another great race, with Rietchers in hot pursuit of the leader (Rogues) that has managed to maintain a difference of about 35nm. The boats are going fast (14K) and the third, Seguin, on a Lombard design, after have managed to win 30nm over the two on the head seems to have now stabilized on a 95nm difference.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Riechers closing in? He lost more than 20 miles tonight... Being 46 miles behind the leader he will need serious problems on GDF to have a chance to win.


He is at 35Nm now

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> He is at 35Nm now
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yesterday he told the YACHT magazine that he awaits lighter winds and seas from now on and that he awaits to perform better. Between the lines you can read, that he thinks that his boat performs better in softer conditions because of the race setup he chose...


----------



## PCP

*Re: CFS: Carbon fiber stone.*



MrPelicano said:


> Au contraire, mon ami Paulo! Pedote put his foot down and is now leading the fleet, with Boidevezi dropped from the peloton and falling behind by nearly 23 miles. Marie is holding on as best he can, 4.4 miles back, but the gap is widening between the scow and the old school.
> 
> I'm very impressed with Justine Mettraux's performance in the Series class, where she's hanging tough in second place with Simon Koster. But who is this Aymeric Belloir (810) fellow in the lead? I confess I'm not familiar with him and apologize if I should be.
> ...


Well, when I posted it was like that. I guess Boidevesi took the best course option on the beginning of the race but then he messed up. The best play now seems to be from Pedote and Benoit Marie. we can saw that on the same course Pedote was faster.

They diverged courses and have different tactical options. The one from Pedote seems to be quite a lonely one. I understand both options but I am not sure what is the best. Pedote will get less wind on the next hours, he is on the more direct course and then it will be on the right place regarding wind pressure but the others that go west can go in that direction for a while going with stronger winds and then turn south to continue to get good pressure.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

Very interesting. In what option you guys bet on?

Finally some images of the start&#8230;with very little wind





Départ de Sada - Mercredi 13 novembre 2013 _por minitransat_

Aymeric Belloir is a professional navigateur, not a top one but anyway a professional and not a kid. Ut would be expected that a guy like him would be racing on the proto. I agree that the performance is amazing.

*"His job is to sail as cleanly as possible and if victory is at the end, so much the better. A creed with which he has been fairly successful so far since 'Aymeric was crowned Champion of France Promotion Solitaire dominating the Mini circuit Series boats. The Mini-Transat will be his ninth Atlantic crossing and the second race."*

Justine Metraux has a good boat ( Team works) but I never heard about her. Well I had a look... and not obviously sails well as she is beutiful

She is a Swiss, not many experience on minis but a lot racing on Swiss lakes.

He need more women sailing at top levell...and if they are beautiful the better. Go Justine go!!!!

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

chall03 said:


> While we are talking mini's, can I plug one very gutsy young Aussie girl who is giving it one hell of a go.
> 
> KATRINA HAM RACING » Chasing the dream and the rollercoaster ride that comes with it!
> 
> Not a form of racing that is well known or supported over here, she struggles to get any sponsorship and worked very hard to be there. Good on her. Far gutsier than I.


Bad luck to her

*"While delivering her boat to Sada, the Australian sailor reported a problem with her gooseneck and requested the assistance of an escort boat. On the outskirts of Ribadeo, she asked for a tow to enter the port. In the entrance channel a wave suddenly took the boat and capsized it. Katrina was not clipped on and fell into the water, but was immediately recovered by the Ribadeo's pilot. The sailor, who was very shocked, has been taken to hospital where she is under observation."*

She is not racing this time.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

zdamen said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've been a little bit absent these few months, but for good reasons. I've been sailing my Dufour 36P, and now, 6 months and some regattas after, I can give some feedback on the boat.
> 
> ....
> P.S. Paulo, I know I owe you. As soon as possible, will try to make it right&#8230;
> ..(


Nice to know the boat is what you expected and you are happy with it.

I have been out cruising (July, August and September) and only come home a month ago. I will gladly take the opportunity to sail with you and see how your boat sails. My boat is in Italy so no sailing fun till next Spring






Regata do XX Aniversário da ANC from Sandra Nunes on Vimeo.






Regata Generali 2013/09/28 from Sandra Nunes on Vimeo.






2013 Regata do Clube Náutico dos Oficiais e Cadetes da Armada from Sandra Nunes on Vimeo.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Advanced 44 daysailer: Pure beauty and performance*

Advanced Yacths had made a smaller yach, a 44ft daysailer. As it is a custom brand maybe it can be turned in a cruiser if someone really wants it.

















Gorgeous boat, a design by Roberto Biscontini and the boat is not just looks, the dimensions are almost as beautiful as the design

With a beam of 4.25m a draft of 3.0m, a torpedo keel and a B/D ratio of 41% this boat is not only fast but STIFF

This one don't need anybody siting on the rails....and it weights only 6650kg, hard to believe in a not all carbon boat with a ballast of 2700kg.

The boat has a cored hull and uses epoxy vacuum infusion and is reinforced with carbon on the zones subjected to bigger efforts.


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

Bad luck for them, bad luck for the race. They have been sailing like that for a long time and were able to maintain the leadership.

*"Vincent Riou and Jean Le Cam are 190 miles from Cape Verde. They are going to make the most of the proximity of the islands to make a technical stop. The PRB duo discovered overnight on Monday that their port rudder is damaged This problem has not affected the overall performance because they have been sailing on a port tack. However for the rest of the race, it is absolutely necessary to make a repair. The technical team of PRB is already on site on the Cape Verde island of Sao Vicente and expects the Open 60 in the middle of tonight. The repair should be done very quickly. This pit stop, according to the routing specialists, will take PRB off their course by just a few miles."*

Now they will be in even terms with Macif that has done the same in Peniche. I hope they can maintain that tack since Cabo verde.


----------



## robelz

And it costs...?


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> And it costs...?


Probably a lot, a boat like that cannot be cheap but a lot less than their other yachts. You have to ask them:

ADVANCED - Italian Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> Probably a lot, a boat like that cannot be cheap but a lot less than their other yachts. You have to ask them:
> 
> ADVANCED - Italian Yachts
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Attorneys should earn much more than they do...


----------



## MrPelicano

PCP said:


> Nice to know the boat is what you expected and you are happy with it.
> 
> I have been out cruising (July, August and September) and only come home a month ago. I will gladly take the opportunity to sail with you and see how your boat sails. My boat is in Italy so no sailing fun till next Spring
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Excellent videos and looks like a lot of fun in different conditions. Some observations, if I may.

Looks from my perspective to be very casual racing indeed. Crew weight positioning is a bit off, with the bowman too often forward of the shrouds, for no apparent reason. Notice the crew doesn't hike very much, perhaps because there is no padding on lower lifelines. But more aggressive hiking and better weight placement will increase speed and performance, both upwind and downwind.

If my eyes are working properly, the headsail is on a furler and not a foil? Does this mean no headsail changes in different wind strengths, so that partial furling is the only option? Is this reflected in the boat's rating?

I only mention all this because I know nothing about the ZDAMEN racing program, but it just seems very mellow compared to what I am used to here in the U.S. On San Francisco Bay, it is aggressive hiking and constant weight adjustment in every class I've ever sailed on, in all conditions and even for "beer can" racing. And Long Island Sound is not much different, although we spend more time on the low side upwind, or on the high side trying to induce windward heel when sailing VMG downwind with A-sails.

Boat is really gorgeous, and it looks to me like Cascais is a superb place to sail. Need to put it on my list, ASAP.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Advanced 44 daysailer: Pure beauty and performance*



PCP said:


> Advanced Yacths had made a smaller yach, a 44ft daysailer. As it is a custom brand maybe it can be turned in a cruiser if someone really wants it.
> 
> Gorgeous boat, a design by Roberto Biscontini and the boat is not just looks, the dimensions are almost as beautiful as the design
> 
> With a beam of 4.25m a draft of 3.0m, a torpedo keel and a B/D ratio of 41% this boat is not only fast but STIFF
> 
> This one don't need anybody siting on the rails....and it weights only 6650kg, hard to believe in a not all carbon boat with a ballast of 2700kg.
> 
> The boat has a cored hull and uses epoxy vacuum infusion and is reinforced with carbon on the zones subjected to bigger efforts.


A "day sailor"? They're joking, right? The boat looks amazing, and the interior is among the best I've ever seen. I mean, obviously, it is missing a number of important offshore features, including deck hardware for serious performance cruising, adequate hand-holds down below and a way to brace yourself at the galley or chart table. Clearly intended for casual inshore sailing and cocktails afterwards. That's not a bad thing at all, but this boat cries out for a cruising version. I really, really, really like this boat. Wow.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Transat Jaques Fabre*



PCP said:


> Bad luck for them, bad luck for the race. They have been sailing like that for a long time and were able to maintain the leadership.
> 
> *"Vincent Riou and Jean Le Cam are 190 miles from Cape Verde. They are going to make the most of the proximity of the islands to make a technical stop. The PRB duo discovered overnight on Monday that their port rudder is damaged This problem has not affected the overall performance because they have been sailing on a port tack. However for the rest of the race, it is absolutely necessary to make a repair. The technical team of PRB is already on site on the Cape Verde island of Sao Vicente and expects the Open 60 in the middle of tonight. The repair should be done very quickly. This pit stop, according to the routing specialists, will take PRB off their course by just a few miles."*
> 
> Now they will be in even terms with Macif that has done the same in Peniche. I hope they can maintain that tack since Cabo verde.


Agreed, this is not good at all for anyone. Really sorry it happened, though again I am alarmed at how much junk is floating in the ocean, waiting to cripple sailing vessels. Such a pity and not a good sign for the future of sailing offshore.

I also hope PRB gets back in action very quickly, so that this stays a race and not simply the Macif parade. All it takes is a light patch to compress everyone and shuffle the standings. C'mon Bernard! Vamos / Alons-y!


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: CFS: Carbon fiber stone.*



PCP said:


> Well, when I posted it was like that. I guess Boidevesi took the best course option on the beginning of the race but then he messed up. The best play now seems to be from Pedote and Benoit Marie. we can saw that on the same course Pedote was faster.
> 
> They diverged courses and have different tactical options. The one from Pedote seems to be quite a lonely one. I understand both options but I am not sure what is the best. Pedote will get less wind on the next hours, he is on the more direct course and then it will be on the right place regarding wind pressure but the others that go west can go in that direction for a while going with stronger winds and then turn south to continue to get good pressure.
> 
> Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre
> 
> Very interesting. In what option you guys bet on?
> 
> Aymeric Belloir is a professional navigateur, not a top one but anyway a professional and not a kid. Ut would be expected that a guy like him would be racing on the proto. I agree that the performance is amazing.
> 
> *"His job is to sail as cleanly as possible and if victory is at the end, so much the better. A creed with which he has been fairly successful so far since 'Aymeric was crowned Champion of France Promotion Solitaire dominating the Mini circuit Series boats. The Mini-Transat will be his ninth Atlantic crossing and the second race."*
> 
> Justine Metraux has a good boat ( Team works) but I never heard about her. Well I had a look... and not obviously sails well as she is beutiful
> 
> She is a Swiss, not many experience on minis but a lot racing on Swiss lakes.
> 
> He need more women sailing at top levell...and if they are beautiful the better. Go Justine go!!!!
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Before the ink was even dry on this posting Pedote had already increased his lead to nearly 27 miles over Marie, and I think his positioning is quite perfect, given the metéo I'm looking at. Yes there is more pressure to the west, but to get there really kills VMG when the angle to the gate is pretty much what Pedote is sailing right now. He's on port gybe right now but will have to gybe onto starboard to stay in the pressure. But I don't think it's worth sailing out to the right side of the course - definitely cheat a bit to the right, but try to minimize the distance sailed. You can see that Delesne and Marie are both coming back on port at the last update, so they will probably be converging on Pedote's line but then gybe back before they get there. It won't matter, though because Pedote has plenty of leverage on them and will gybe back onto starboard to cover.

At some point, everyone has to get far enough east to pass through the gate, so there's a fairly narrow path to get there and if it were me I'd want to be where Pedote is now. Indeed, he's probably already gybed onto starboard and is putting some west in the bank. Delesne was in some good breeze earlier, and motoring along at 13.7 knots, quite a bit faster than Marie and 1.7 knots faster than Pedote, but 747 is still doing 12 knots and Delesne's speed will decrease as he gets more east.

So, yeah, in short: Go the scow!!!!!!!


----------



## chall03

PCP said:


> Bad luck to her
> 
> *"While delivering her boat to Sada, the Australian sailor reported a problem with her gooseneck and requested the assistance of an escort boat. On the outskirts of Ribadeo, she asked for a tow to enter the port. In the entrance channel a wave suddenly took the boat and capsized it. Katrina was not clipped on and fell into the water, but was immediately recovered by the Ribadeo's pilot. The sailor, who was very shocked, has been taken to hospital where she is under observation."*
> 
> She is not racing this time.
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Just saw that  Ahhhh That sucks.


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre : Going fast with a duo crew*

Class 40:





Jour 8 - Solidaires en Peloton (Class40... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

M70:





Jour 8 - Oman Air (MOD70) - Musandam - Transat... _por TransatJacquesVabre_


----------



## robelz

The Nacira 650 holds 4 of the first 5 positions. Pogo Structures should hurry up with the Pogo 3!


----------



## PCP

*Nacira 650 - Production mini class racer.*

That's a boat made by enthusiasts and young experts. The project was guided by Corentin Douguet, the winer of the Transat 6,50 2005, 3rd on the Solitaire du Figaro in 2007 and 2010.

This guy:






and here team Work. Both are doing a great race, Delesne with a Sam Manuard proto and Justine with the Nacira 650.






The Nacira 650 was designed by two young Nas, Axel de Beaufort et Alexis Muratet and built in small series by Chantier Naval FR Nautisme. They make also a 40 class racer.



Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Norbert Sedlacek / Open 16 Update*

Well, unfortunately, Norbert Sedlacek's effort to cross the Atlantic in the Open 16 _Fipofix_ came to an untimely end, shortly after the start from Les Sables D'Olonne last Sunday. Contrary to initial reports, it was a complete failure of his electrical system that forced the Austrian skipper to seek assistance. However, while being towed into the Spanish port of Gijón, the boat struck debris which ripped one of the rudders off the boat. Interestingly, according to his web site, the structural integrity of his volcanic rock-infused carbon laminate hull was not compromised - it was the stainless steel fittings which failed upon impact.

At this time, it appears that he will not attempt to resume the voyage in 2013, but it wasn't clear to me from the article if he will try again in 2014 or shift his focus back to the 2016 Vendée Globe, for which he has plans to build a new IMOCA 60 using the new composite technology.

http://www.norbertsedlacek.at/joomla/index.php?lang=de

I'm rather disappointed, personally, as I was planning to go down to NYC to visit the boat upon its arrival. Now I will have to come to Europe to catch a glimpse of it when it goes on tour. 

This has certainly been a horrible year for boats being damaged by floating junk. The list of carnage in the Mini Transat continued overnight, with several notable retirements / abandonments / technical stops resulting from collisions with various objects. I wonder if this will necessitate some radical innovations in boat design to lessen the risk of catastrophic failure when striking large objects at sea. Not sure what can be done other than strengthen key components, but at some point the sailors themselves will risk injury from being thrown off balance during collisions - perhaps helmets and air bags will be required. 

On a more positive note, nobody has collided with a fishing boat so far.


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Fabre*

On Open 60:

Riou managed to lead the race till he had to stop in Cabo Verde to change a broken rudder. Gabart took the opportunity to overtake him and is leading but Riou did not tale long on that pit stop and is on his tail, having lost only 31nm.

Here they are going away from Cabo Verde:





Jour 9 - PRB - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 _por TransatJacquesVabre_

The second pursuing group, a trio (Stamm, Beyou, Marc) manage to close on Gabart and the first of them, Beyou is only at 69Nm (won 21Nm).

Difficult to say who has the advantage now, Gabart has more pressure but they have a better wind direction. For now the trio is winning time and distance. On the last two hours they averaged about 15.5K while Gabart is only making 13.2.

Anyway the race remains very hot, even for the leadership.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

....

On class 40:

It is a duo race with Rogues and Riechers winning time over everybody. Riechers lost some few miles on the last hours (5 Nm) but on the last days has maintained about the same speed and distance to the leader, always about 35nm. On the last 2 hours Rogues has been faster. Here they are, Rogues and Fabien and it seems they are having fun





Jour 8 - GDF SUEZ (Class40) - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_


----------



## PCP

*Re: Norbert Sedlacek / Open 16 Update*



MrPelicano said:


> ...However, while being towed into the Spanish port of Gijón, the boat struck debris which ripped one of the rudders off the boat. Interestingly, according to his web site, the structural integrity of his volcanic rock-infused carbon laminate hull was not compromised - it was the stainless steel fittings which failed upon impact.
> 
> ...
> This has certainly been a horrible year for boats being damaged by floating junk. The list of carnage in the Mini Transat continued overnight, with several notable retirements / abandonments / technical stops resulting from collisions with various objects. I wonder if this will necessitate some radical innovations in boat design to lessen the risk of catastrophic failure when striking large objects at sea. Not sure what can be done other than strengthen key components, but at some point the sailors themselves will risk injury from being thrown off balance during collisions - perhaps helmets and air bags will be required.
> 
> On a more positive note, nobody has collided with a fishing boat so far.


One more:

*"Gilles Avril sprung a major leak aboard his Mini No. 562 (Evolution Marine) after hitting a tree trunk off Portugal."
*

This has been a bad year with lots of storms and debris have been taken from land to the sea by rivers in unusually number. I hope this year will be an exception and not the new rule.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*

Everything is pretty much the same with Pedote going away and the 3 Musketeers from the series class making an outstanding trace. Among them a girl that is in 2nd at only at 8nm from the first.

Regarding Protos I have said that Pedote is going away and yes from almost all, except one that has been and is rigth now faster: Boidevesi that is now second recovering from 7th. He started very well, lead the race, messed up and went down to 7th but you can keep down a fast racer






and here he comes at full speed. He is at 43nm from the leader. On the last days he was the only one with the same pace as the leader (he have recovered only some miles) but now he is making 11.7K while the leader is making 10.9.

If someone can catch Pedote I think he is the one.

http://www.minitransat.fr/cartographie?lang=en


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> Everything is pretty much the same with Pedote going away and the 3 Musketeers from the series class making an outstanding trace. Among them a girl that is in 2nd at only at 8nm from the first.
> 
> Regarding Protos I have said that Pedote is going away and yes from almost all, except one that has been and is rigth now faster: Boidevesi that is now second recovering from 7th. He started very well, lead the race, messed up and went down to 7th but you can keep down a fast racer
> 
> and here he comes at full speed. He is at 43nm from the leader. On the last days he was the only one with the same pace as the leader (he have recovered only some miles) but now he is making 11.7K while the leader is making 10.9.
> 
> If someone can catch Pedote I think he is the one.
> 
> Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


Paulo - I think the real question that will need to be addressed, regardless of the results of this Mini Transat race, is: Can the more conventional 6.50 designs compete against the scow design?

So far, in this race, 747 has been fast across the full range of conditions, including those where everyone expected that it would be slower - upwind in big breeze / seas. But Pedote quickly showed that was not the case, and now that he is in the boat's sweet spot, he is almost untouchable - subject only to the prevailing metéo in his location, relative to his competition.

I am also wondering whether any additional modifications were made to the boat based on Raison's experiences in the previous race. You will recall that he did not look dominant in the first leg, which, admittedly, was uncharacteristically light, and having any kind of breeze was the determining factor as to how one finished. For leg two, well, 747 simply pulled away from everyone else.

We will admit that Pedote is a great sailor. But that means that other sailors at his level cannot permit him to have an edge in boat design, all other things being equal. So far, the boat also appears to be quite durable, no doubt due to the lessons Raison learned when he was dismasted in his first race on 747. The mast is not stayed in the traditional manner, and uses a much bigger section. Similarly, the sprit is unconventional, extending through a steel hoop on the foredeck and being made of an uncommonly large carbon tube.

I very much hope that someone will get an interview with Raison after this race to discuss his design views again. Would be very entertaining and informative.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Mini Transat*



MrPelicano said:


> Paulo - I think the real question that will need to be addressed, regardless of the results of this Mini Transat race, is: Can the more conventional 6.50 designs compete against the scow design?
> 
> So far, in this race, 747 has been fast across the full range of conditions, including those where everyone expected that it would be slower - upwind in big breeze / seas. But Pedote quickly showed that was not the case, and now that he is in the boat's sweet spot, he is almost untouchable - subject only to the prevailing metéo in his location, relative to his competition.
> 
> ....
> We will admit that Pedote is a great sailor. But that means that other sailors at his level cannot permit him to have an edge in boat design, all other things being equal. So far, the boat also appears to be quite durable, no doubt due to the lessons Raison learned when he was dismasted in his first race on 747. The mast is not stayed in the traditional manner, and uses a much bigger section. Similarly, the sprit is unconventional, extending through a steel hoop on the foredeck and being made of an uncommonly large carbon tube.
> 
> ..


Humm, not quite so unless you are talking specifically of a Transat race. That design and boat has not managed to win out of a transat and have been beaten (not for much is true) by more conventional designs.

Probably the main mini race out of the transat is the Mini Fastnet. Raison's design did not won in 2012 neither in 2013.






Look at the mini rating and you will see that on the top are sailors that use conventional boats. If it was like you say everybody with be racing with "bath tube" bow boats

Classe Mini

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Elan 410 against Elan 350*

Look at the wheel of the 350: Good material


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Elan 410 against Elan 350*



PCP said:


> Look at the wheel of the 350: Good material


I see that the conflict in the Balkans continues.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> Humm, not quite so unless you are talking specifically of a Transat race. That design and boat has not managed to win out of a transat and have been beaten (not for much is true) by more conventional designs.
> 
> Probably the main mini race out of the transat is the Mini Fastnet. Raison's design did not won in 2012 neither in 2013.
> 
> Look at the mini rating and you will see that on the top are sailors that use conventional boats. If it was like you say everybody with be racing with "bath tube" bow boats
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Indeed, my point applies only to the Mini Transat race which, for sailors at the top level, is the only one that really counts. 

Today, all the top sailors except one are sailing conventional designs, but I suggested several weeks ago that may well be due to uncertainty as to whether Raison's victory in 2011 was just "luck". My point, now, is that Pedote crushing the fleet in 2013 in the same boat may suggest to the top echelon the need to make the move to a scow design, if they want to win the Transat.

Of course, for all other races a conventional design will do well, provided the top guys don't all show up in scows. 

Meanwhile, looking at the latest position chart, Pedote played it pretty much like I suggested yesterday. As his pursuers had to eventually gybe onto port and come back east, he used his leverage to come back on starboard into the stronger breeze (although it is getting lighter as the fleet approaches the Azores, and perhaps we'll see some compression by tomorrow morning). But he has maintained a > 45nm lead over Boidevezi and, at the last update, was going 3.4 knots faster. Indeed, he was the fastest boat in the race over that time period (though Simon Koster is sailing the hell out of his Series boat, only 0.9 knots slower than Pedote - amazing!).

Reading about the carnage that so many boats have endured, it really underscores just how good Pedote, Boidevezi, Belloir, Mettraux, and the other top skippers are. They are sailing in the same rough, boat-breaking conditions, and they are pushing hard all the way, not simply surviving. That takes both incredible skill and confidence in the preparation of their boats. I am truly humbled by their achievements.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Mini Transat*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> ...
> Of course, for all other races a conventional design will do well, provided the top guys don't all show up in scows.


Hum, I guess you did not understood. The bath tube bow does not have been able to win anything except the Transat. There are plenty of other races and a rating based on victories and top classifications on all races, kind of a championship. The first bath tub boat (Pedote) comes only in 4th.



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> Meanwhile, looking at the latest position chart, Pedote played it pretty much like I suggested yesterday. As his pursuers had to eventually gybe onto port and come back east, he used his leverage to come back on starboard into the stronger breeze (although it is getting lighter as the fleet approaches the Azores, and perhaps we'll see some compression by tomorrow morning). But he has maintained a > 45nm lead over Boidevezi and, at the last update, was going 3.4 knots faster. Indeed, he was the fastest boat in the race over that time period (though Simon Koster is sailing the hell out of his Series boat, only 0.9 knots slower than Pedote - amazing!).
> ....


If you play the race back on the bottom cursor you will see that what I have said is true: Boidevezi 28 hours ago was at 46.7nm and now it is at 45.8nm. Boidevezi is the only one that is not losing to Pedote.

The speeds on this case have not the relevance that have on the Jaques Vabre site. There you have an average speed of 2hours and average of 24hours, here you have the instantaneous speed measured when they made the actualization.

Regarding the two boats the difference of speed as to do with them being about 48nm apart and not receiving the same wind. It will be sometimes worse for Pedote sometimes better but given the very similar speed potential of the two boats and the relatively small difference between them I believe that among those two the winner will be the one that it plays better routing.

By the way, Boidevezi is sailing an "old" boat a 2008 one, designed by Etienne Bertrand. Boidevezi is only on 22th on that overall ranking and that seems to show that is boat is not very well suited for other conditions except the ones you find on a transat, meaning downwind sailing.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

The minis make a lot of races each year, more than a dozen, having a boat only able to win one of them, even if it is the more important, makes not much sense and that's why there are not a lot of bath tub bow boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

GUNBOAT G4 - YouTube

I am in love!

http://www.gunboat.com/series/gunboat-g4


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Elan 410 against Elan 350*



PCP said:


> Look at the wheel of the 350: Good material


Was that 350 just recovering from a broach, or just not tracking very well upwind? Hey, nobody touch a sheet, just keep powering through:laugher


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat and Transat Jaques Vabre*

Decidedly Boidevezi does not like to do the same thing as the others: where the hell is he going?

He managed to spoil our little comparison about speed on the same course between Boidevezi and the leader. Pedote keeps pushing ahead but now it is Delesne that in 18 hours managed to reduce his distance to Pedote in 12Nm. He is now at 49nm.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

On the Transat JV:

On Open 60, pretty much the same being the good new that Gabart contrary of what many would expect has not gone away from Riou that had managed to keep the pace 29nm back. Also surprisingly Beyou is not losing time to these two and maintains a distance of about 69nm. We have race even for the winner!!!! Pretty much all open yet.

Marc going at speed:





Jour 10 - Safran (IMOCA) - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

A situation point about the race:





Day 8's resume - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 _por TransatJacquesVabre_

On 40class the two leading boats are more and more distant from the others. The third is already at 131nm. Rogues is leading and Riechers seems not able to reduce the 46nm disadvantage.

Multi 70: It is absolutely amaizing the diference of pace for the Open60, almost the double. While the Open60 where arriving at Cabo Verde the M70 where arriving to Brazil
Finally it seems that there is some interest in their race with Gavignet reducing the distance to Josse to 47nm.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013


----------



## PCP

*Gunboat G4*



robelz said:


> GUNBOAT G4 - YouTube
> 
> I am in love!
> 
> Gunboat G4


Interesting but ugly

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

*Re: Gunboat G4*



PCP said:


> Interesting but ugly
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I'd say nearly any other Kat is ugly but this one is the first to attract me...


----------



## robelz

*Re: Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> Humm, not quite so unless you are talking specifically of a Transat race. That design and boat has not managed to win out of a transat and have been beaten (not for much is true) by more conventional designs.
> 
> Probably the main mini race out of the transat is the Mini Fastnet. Raison's design did not won in 2012 neither in 2013.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the mini rating and you will see that on the top are sailors that use conventional boats. If it was like you say everybody with be racing with "bath tube" bow boats
> 
> Classe Mini
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


2012 La Trinité - Plymouth 1er (avec Rémi Aubrun)
2013 Trophée Marie Agnès Péron, 1e
2013 La Trinité / Plymouth, 1e (avec Rémi Aubrun)

Didn't Pedote race the Scow in these races?


----------



## robelz

PRB recovered and is only 22sm back. Fantastic race!


----------



## PCP

*Re: Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> 2012 La Trinité - Plymouth 1er (avec Rémi Aubrun)
> 2013 Trophée Marie Agnès Péron, 1e
> 2013 La Trinité / Plymouth, 1e (avec Rémi Aubrun)
> 
> Didn't Pedote race the Scow in these races?


Yes, avec Remi Aubrun (it was a duo race). Yes you are right, I should have said any major race. On the the last La Trinité / Plymouth were racing 9 protos and none of them was a top contender except Pedote.



Raison bath tub bow boats have won more races and some major ones too. Let's say that they have not dominated the racing mini-Panorama as some would expect after the victory on the last transat.

They only win when they have favorable conditions and it is not a boat that can win in any conditions. They have lost a lot more races than the ones they have won (2 boats racing on the mini-circuit) and that reflects on Pedote ranking on the mini circuit (4th).

Here you have all the victories and other results:

Document sans titre

This year Pedote has been very strong but it is hard to say how much it is due to Pedote and how much to the boat.

Let´s see how the race goes. Pedote is not going away and the difference to the chasing pack had stabilized (45/60Nm).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Maxi 1300 MkII*

Maxy yacts, now belonging to Delphia, presented a new version of the Maxi 1300: Two wheel set up and a new interior.

I cannot say that I like too much the interior, specially the rat colored settees but this boat remains one of my favorites. Great interior quality, great rigging layout for solo sailing, a quite narrow hull (3.80m) and a considerable B/D (41%) on a 2,25m bulbed keel.

Not really a cruiser racer but certainly a fast and very comfortable performance cruiser. The best new is the price that went down considerably (this boat was very expensive): 336,740 euros including 21% VAT.


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
The client will have his spin hal and genoa hal on the mast winches. I suppose we could go with one winch but for now it's two.

The boat will have the Leisure Furl system as the client has that now and likes it. There will not be any reefing winches. Main hal and furling lines will run back to the cockpit to the winch on top of the cabin trunk to starboard.

This is the identical set up the client has now and he likes it.
Part of this design brief was to give the cliengt a boat thatg he will feel immediately familiar with when he first goes sailing. He is sticking with the sailing systems that he knows work well for him now.

"bathtub bow" I like that. I know why it works but I wish it did not work so well. It's very hard to look at. Great photi of that bow. Reminds me of some of the old, traditional Dutch yachts.


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

*Transat JV:*

Better then never: a turning point (or not) on all different class races. It is a coincidence but what a coincidence:

On Open 60 Beyou has managed to reduce Gabart lead to just 23Nm and they are both entering the famous "pot noir" where the wind is a lottery and one can lose or win a lot depending on tactical options.

The leader at speed:





Jour 10 - MACIF (IMOCA) - Transat Jacques Vabre... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

On Multi 50 they are both into the "pot" that place that the English call doldrums, and there Yves has managed to caught and overtake Le Roux that has now a 32 nm disadvantage. They are not out of it and one or the other can get out first and win or lose a lot more.

Curiously on the class 40, that are still away from this dark region, the two first are entering in a high pressure zone with little wind. It seems that it was this that Riechers, the 2nd, was hopping for. It seems that he thinks he has an advantage in light winds. Let's see if he is right. He managed to diminish is distance to the first and in 3 hours won 12nm. He is know at 37nm from the first, Rogues.

Finally, on M70 they are closing on the finish line and only 21Nm separates the two boats. The second is finally closing on the long time leader, Josse. Gavignet won 10Nm on the last hours and is only at 21Nm.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

It would be hard to have a more interesting race

*Mini transat:*

Interesting here too, with Delesne (2nd) closing slowly on Pedote (1st). On the last 4 hours he managed to win 6Nm over Pedote and is now at 42Nm.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

Guess who is the designer of Delesne boat? Sam Manuard, who else? and not a new design (2009).

Sam Manuard as designer is having an incredible performance on this race: 1st and 2nd in class40, 2nd in Mini. Please can someone order a Open60 to this guy? 

By the way, Sam Manuard is racing too, not on this one but on the Jaques vabre. He is crewing for Mura a "client" that is racing one of his boats. They had bad luck and had to stop in Spain to have the mast repaired. They went out in 17th and they are now in 13th and winning over the boats ahead. Not bad for a NA Well, last year he had done better and won the race with Yves in M50. This is certainly one NA that cannot be accused by some fellow sailneters of not having offshore experience...and in differnt types of boats


----------



## sailor1950

what boat is in The Hunters movie?


----------



## PCP

sailor1950 said:


> what boat is in The Hunters movie?


I don't know of what you are talking about. Please tell about what post are you referring. Or are you really talking about a movie?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

IMOCA-doldrums-lottery: MACIF was overtaken by PRB by 16nm and is only 2nm ahead of MAÎTRE COQ. Even between PRB and CHEMINNEES POUJOLAT as the 5th there are just 33nm... Awesome!

Looking at the weather forecast the routing of MACIF seems to be a catastrophy: They chose an easterly route and for the next 24h the more westerly you go the more wind you'll have. Stamm might be the biggest winner...


----------



## hannah2

Lots of racing going on this week all over the globe. Here at Puerto Calero on Lanzarote we have the RC 44 world championships this coming week. Teams have been working around the clock to prep their boats. Nice looking boats especially under sail on a beam reach. I don't know a thing about them any one know much about them.

Working hard on getting boat ready for crossing in early December, first though a 6 day coming up to the Verdes.

Cheers


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> ...
> 
> Working hard on getting boat ready for crossing in early December, first though a 6 day coming up to the Verdes.
> 
> Cheers


Hi Steve, welcome back.

You mean Cabo Verde for sure. Verdes means in Portuguese "greens".

Don't be a stranger and please give us an update on the performance of your Boreal 44. Your case is very interesting and your opinions too not only because you are an experienced sailor but also because your previous boat was a full keel boat (mason 44) by many considerate a great passagemaker. It would be difficult to find two more different sailboats even if the Boreal is also considered by many as a great passagemaker.

Your opinions and comparisons regarding the two boats in what regards sea motion, living comfort, speed on different points of sail, storage and general aptitude as a voyage boat will be very interesting and will interest us all.



Please when you have enough information give yourself the trouble of making a good post about it. We would all be grateful.

For the ones that don't know Steve is the proud owner of a Boreal 44, a French aluminium light centerboarder. He went to France to follow the final stages of building and pick the boat. He is now returning to the States.

Some of the more interesting information on this thread come from Eric and Anders that now own modern light performance cruisers and have owned previously several more traditional cruisers. Please join that restricted great group of contributors of this thread.

We also want photos of you and your boat. If you don't know how to post good quality photos photos email them to me and I will post them.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*RC 44 Series*



hannah2 said:


> Lots of racing going on this week all over the globe. Here at Puerto Calero on Lanzarote we have the RC 44 world championships this coming week. Teams have been working around the clock to prep their boats. Nice looking boats especially under sail on a beam reach. I don't know a thing about them any one know much about them.
> ..


We have already talked here about the Rc44 series. They are a top professional series, a worldwide one and the concept and boat was developed by Russell Countts. The boats are in fact almost perfect 1/2 re-scaled America's cup last monohulls, all carbon boats.

Here you have great footage of the last round in Cascais (one month ago) that as usual offered great racing conditions:






Here you have a movie about the boat design:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## chall03

*Re: RC 44 Series*



PCP said:


> We have already talked here about the Rc44 series. They are a top professional series, a worldwide one and the concept and boat was developed by Russel Counts. The boats are in fact almost perfect 1/2 re-scaled America's cup last monohulls, all carbon boats.


Developed by New Zealand sailing legend Russell _Coutts_. Rceently as head of Team Oracle he was voted the most hated man in New Zealand


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> IMOCA-doldrums-lottery: MACIF was overtaken by PRB by 16nm and is only 2nm ahead of MAÎTRE COQ. Even between PRB and CHEMINNEES POUJOLAT as the 5th there are just 33nm... Awesome!
> 
> Looking at the weather forecast the routing of MACIF seems to be a catastrophy: They chose an easterly route and for the next 24h the more westerly you go the more wind you'll have. Stamm might be the biggest winner...


Yes, absolutely phenomenal racing and one of the best Jaques Vabre editions ever.

They are still on the "Pot au noir" (black cauldron) and the positions are now different: Gabart 1st, Riou 2nd, Beyou 3th, Marc 4th, Stamm 5th. stamm is only at 26nm and Riou at 5nm. Truly amazing after all this time of racing and it shows how those guys are all incredible sailors.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

On the Mini Transat things go a little slower but not less interesting with Delesne (2nd) managing to diminish is distance over Pedote (1st). He is now at 37.4Nm, have recovered on the last days about 25nm.

On the series boats continue a fantastic battle between Aymeric, Kostner and surprisingly (or maybe not) a girl, Justine. The two first are almost side by side while Justine is only 22Nm back. They are all ahead of most protos and that is a hell of a performance.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hannah2

Hi Paulo and crew, 

Sorry about the Verde and Verdes thing By the way we are stocked up with good Verdes wine. 

It is still too early to give you a detailed report on our new Boreal. We hope it is the down wind and broad reach boat we have seen so far in the 2000 miles we have put on her. She is really fun sailing in 15 to 35 knots but let us make a crossing or two before I give a detailed report. You mentioned going back to the states and that we will not be doing with this boat I hope. Our goal from the day we order the Boreal was getting back to the S. Pacific and visit old friends and explore a few more places where we could not go with the Mason 44. 

I will say this about Boreal, we complained to them that we had some corners in the heads where the locker doors touch the locker inner frames that were turning black in small areas. Not long after the company and the company that builds the interior. Sorry I forget the companies name but they build just about every French made boats interiors. Anyway the head of that company and the head of Boreal flew down to Lisbon and spent two days going over the interior of our boat. They said that they found a problem with these little plastic tabs they put in the door frames, we were the first boat to have them. Those tabs were too tight and when the locker doors shut the Varnish cracked and allowed water in. Boreal had their top interior guy fly into the canaries to replace the doors and redoing the Varnish work. What a sight to see this guy driving up in a taxi to the marina with all this wood work sticking out the back of the trunk. We never demanded or even asked for the replacement But both companies insisted it be redone. Thank you Boreal for your caring of your customers.

We are working 6 hours or more a day getting ready for the crossing, going over rigging, making better chafe guards for the spreaders. Lots of splicing of lines, de pickeling the water maker and on and on, hard work but a lot of fun. And don't forget the buying of food and figuring out where and how to store it. The Boreal has far more storage space than the Mason had and that boat had a lot.

Cheers


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
How does the bathtub type do in light and moderate air. I see a hull with a lot of wetted surface? I don't know who is sailing what. I need some coaching on this.


----------



## PCP

*David Raison and the Bath tub bow mini*



bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> How does the bathtub type do in light and moderate air. I see a hull with a lot of wetted surface? I don't know who is sailing what. I need some coaching on this.


Bob,

First let me tell you about David Raison, an extraordinaire character, a NA and a mini racer that believed so much in this project (that for most was a joke) that he sold is house to build the boat.

Let me tell you also that this is not the kind of guy that has an idea, went for it and got lucky. This is the kind of guy that made exhaustive studies with CFD before building the boat. He says that the hull worked exactly as it has supposed to work...he said also that when he took the boat out of the mold and had a good look at it he was apprehensive and thought to himself "I hope those studies prove right"

Curiously he says that the idea come from the Optimists and also from Caravels. In fact I had read in transcriptions of old naval documents (XV/XVI centuries) that they believed that a ship should have a well rounded bow.

Regarding performance nothing better to hear what he says about the boat:

He says that the boat works very well in almost all conditions and says also that there is a price for that: less comfort (sea motion) and structural difficulties.

In fact he took several years to manage to sort out those structure problems due to the increased sail power and probably also due to the increased pounding the boat takes in heavy seas. When he arrived on the last transat (that he won) he said in an interview that in some conditions he had a lot of trouble to preserve the boat in heavy seas and that had been afraid in some occasions.

He says that the conditions were the boat has a bigger advantage is reaching were the increase in speed can be over 15%. On the other sailing positions the gains are not as big and on light winds, specially with choppy conditions the boat is less performat than traditional ones.

I thought that with waves upwind the boat would be slower but it seems that not with all types of waves, as we could saw on this race.

I thought also that the boat would point less well than the other minis and that is not simply true at least with flat water.

They have made also testing in several occasions with other top minis and the results were clear, even in what regards to go faster upwind close to the wind in flat water and medium winds.

Have a look:











regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I watched the video. I can see that when MAGNUM heels over that big, blunt bow is reduced greatly. It looks like a sweet ride.
Thanks for the education. Is Raison the only bathtub bow boat in this current race?


----------



## PCP

Yes but it is not Raison that is sailing it but Pedote, the leader.

Yes I agree and also close to the wind with strong wind the minis with those fat transoms and big beam tend to nose dive while sailing while the Raison's design maintains a better position with all that buoyancy at the bow preventing it to go down.


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

And Riou is at only half mile from Gabart. They can see each other

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

all the others have lost some distance to this duo.

Here we can see some very wet images from Stamm's boat, Cheminees Poujoulat





Jour 11 - Cheminées Poujoulat (IMOCA) - Transat... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

and here Marc...is he overtaking a ship





Jour 11 - Safran (IMOCA) - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

On the Mini Transat big news:

Delesne at only 1.3Nm from Pedote and Benoit at 8.4nm. The ones that take care of the classifications believe that Pedote has made a tactical error with his lonely option course and in fact I cannot see any advantage and cannot understand what he wants to accomplish.

Sure he will have a slightly better wind angle but would that pay off? Maybe he knows that with that wind angle his bath tub bow boat will go on turbo mode and the difference in speed will be enough to give him a bigger difference in the end to the ones that chase him. Anyway it will be interesting to watch.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


----------



## PCP

*Coville returned to Brest*

Thomas interrupted his attempt on the circumnavigation solo absolute record. The point of fixation of one of the sails broke. He is going to repair and will leave again on the next meteo window.





Heavy Weather for Sodebo and his skipper Thomas... _por TheSailingNewsTV_


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

The fight for the leadership on Open60 continue blazing hot with Riou and Gabart pratically sailing side by side. It seems that both skippers decided to settle it (at least for now) in pure speed and they follow exactly the same course. They see each other quite well, they are out of the doldrums and both making about 17K.

The next is Beyou but already at more than 50nm. All the others are also losing distance for the leading duo.

On Multi 50 Le Roux is ahead again, it seems that is boat is slightly faster then the one from Yves that follows him at 37nm in not agreeable conditions:





Jour 11 - Actual (Multi50) - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

On class 40 it seems that Richers it is not able to catch Rogues, that stays at about 50Nm and that the 3rd is not able to close on Riechers that has an advantage of 60nm.

The Spanish team that at the beginning of the course managed to be 2nd for a considerable time before being forced to stop in Spain for repairs continue its recovery and it i now 4th at few miles from the 3th. Great recovery. That's an all Spanish team including the designer, Marcelino Botin, that on his first attempt designing a 40class racer seems to have got it amazingly right, giving the big experience of other designers on this type of boat.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

*Mini-transat:*

Bad news for Vincent:

*The skipper of Déphémérid'eux ran aground on the coast of Lanzarote at 5:40 (GMT +1). Vincent was under autopilot and fell asleep at the wrong moment. His trajectory shaved too close to the Island and his prototype went aground on the coast not far from Arrecife.

The skipper was very quickly supported by the Island's rescue services. He is under observation at the hospital, and all is well. However, the boat is very badly damaged. *

another broken rudder:

*Ludovic Méchin has meanwhile arrived in Rabat with a broken runner, a damaged rudder and a hole in the boat. He is assessing the repair time to see if can return to sea or not.*

Regarding the race it seems to me that Pedote got it right and the guys that are managing the classification on the race map got it wrong

My respect for Pedote as a sailor has increased a lot. He has not only a hell of a boat as he is bright on the tactical decisions. Now it seems to me that probably the difference in speed is going to paid that longer detour. He is making 11.4K while the 2nd and 3rd are making about 9K. They give Benoit Marie as second at only 5.4K but I think they are wrong and that in fact the (corrected) distance is much bigger. I bet that in the end of the afternoon Pedote will be at 20nm and still in a better position to win more.


----------



## Kubota

You have recently posted about Viko 30s. I have seen this boat on a show this weekend, and didn't like it at all-cockpit is large, but uncomfortable, poorly finished, narrow interior, irregular step height in companionway... Nothing impressed me on the boat.

Rather than Viko I prefer Sedna 30 which I own, and which has been posted on this thread. The price is similar, build quality much better and I really enjoy its sailing performance-just an interesting sailboat My boat is a centerboarder with an outboard engine, so my minimal draft is around 50cm (needed here in Poland-we have some channels with minimum depth of 60cm) I can lay my mast horizontally without any help, to get under the bridge. They can be equipped with a fixed keel as well.

They also produce 26ft and the brand new 24ft.
Since I cannot post any links or photos, maybe someone could post some for others...
Shipyard's website is sednayachts .pl (without spaces)


----------



## robelz

Kubota said:


> You have recently posted about Viko 30s. I have seen this boat on a show this weekend, and didn't like it at all-cockpit is large, but uncomfortable, poorly finished, narrow interior, irregular step height in companionway... Nothing impressed me on the boat.
> 
> Rather than Viko I prefer Sedna 30 which I own, and which has been posted on this thread. The price is similar, build quality much better and I really enjoy its sailing performance-just an interesting sailboat My boat is a centerboarder with an outboard engine, so my minimal draft is around 50cm (needed here in Poland-we have some channels with minimum depth of 60cm) I can lay my mast horizontally without any help, to get under the bridge. They can be equipped with a fixed keel as well.
> 
> They also produce 26ft and the brand new 24ft.
> Since I cannot post any links or photos, maybe someone could post some for others...
> Shipyard's website is sednayachts .pl (without spaces)


Hey,

it is really goodlooking. I never heard of this. They also plan to build a 40footer: Sedna 40










Greets to poland, love your country!


----------



## Kubota

Oh yeah, I forgot about this one! But it is still under construction unfortunately...


----------



## Kubota

robelz said:


> Greets to poland, love your country!


Thank you!


----------



## bobperry

Very interesting. Very Euro.


----------



## PCP

*Sedna 30 / Viko 30*



Kubota said:


> You have recently posted about Viko 30s. I have seen this boat on a show this weekend, and didn't like it at all-cockpit is large, but uncomfortable, poorly finished, narrow interior, irregular step height in companionway... Nothing impressed me on the boat.
> 
> Rather than Viko I prefer Sedna 30 which I own, and which has been posted on this thread. The price is similar, build quality much better and I really enjoy its sailing performance-just an interesting sailboat My boat is a centerboarder with an outboard engine, so my minimal draft is around 50cm (needed here in Poland-we have some channels with minimum depth of 60cm) I can lay my mast horizontally without any help, to get under the bridge. They can be equipped with a fixed keel as well.
> 
> ..


Well, maybe you should have sailed the boat to be impressed

In fact the Sedna 30 is a mainstream cruiser that can be compared with the Delphia 31 not with the Viko 30 that is a performance cruiser. Performance cruisers have always less interior space and are less "fat" than performance cruisers therefore for the same size normally they have a better cruising interior.

The Sedna 30 has displacement of 3600kg. The Viko has a displacement of 2750kg, the Sedna has a upwind sail area of 42.7m2 the Viko 30 a sail area of 46.50m2.

This indicates that the Viko would be a much faster boat and also one with a superior RM. The Sedna 30 has more ballast but it is almost all on the bottom of the boat while almost all ballast on the Viko is on a bulb, a lifting one or a fixed one and finally the Viko manages to be less expensive even if normally performance boats are more expensive.

It is normal that you like more your boat. The boats are not pointed to the same kind of sailors. You don't see anything interesting on the Viko and I bet that the ones interested in the Viko would not see nothing interesting in your boat

Different priorities: The ones that will prefer the Sedna will want a boat with a maximized interior in what regards cruising, including height, space and amenities. The ones that will prefer the Sedna will want a cruising boat with maximized performances and for that they will trade a smaller and less comfortable interior, but certainly a lighter one.

If we look to both boats they will clearly show the differences (first the Sedna then the Viko):





























Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*European style*



bobperry said:


> Very interesting. Very Euro.


Hummm, I had already said that your 46ft was a very nice boat but comparing a + 1 000 000 dollar boat with 40 to 45 000 euros boat and then say that the cheap boats look very European it is not fair.

For that you would have to look to European production similarly sized top quality boats (and some not even that). There are for all tastes and even if we cannot say that there are an uniformed style we can call it European, we can see some different trends.













[URL=http://s804.photobucket.com/user/Paulo_Carvalho/media/design/Mylius_sakura_MG_1974_zps8a013733.jpg.html]





















Regards

Paulo


----------



## Kubota

I didn't say, that Viko doesn't sail well. I just said, that it didn't impress me, especially the interior quality was poor. Visit the boat on a show, and you'll know wiat I'm talking about.

I like to sail fast, I'm not a lazy cruiser, and feel really happy with Sedna... 8.3kn isn't bad for a 9m centerboard cruiser 
My point wasn't to criticize or promote any boat. I just wanted to share my impressions about this interesting sailboats, whic were posted here(i consider myself to be the only one here who has seen them and sailed two of them(sedna 26 and 30)).

Btw, I would say, that you can make any boat, a really fast one. Excluding Delphia, most of the polish boatyards are open to your demands, so, as long as it doesn't mąkę the boat any dangerous, you can have anything you want-interior layout, rigging, keel, lifting keel, centerboard, extra ballast, bigger sails etc...


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Hey,
> 
> it is really goodlooking. I never heard of this. They also plan to build a 40footer: Sedna 40
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greets to poland, love your country!


The hull looks nice, ore modern than the one of the 30ft and that torpedo keel too. Curiously Viko is also making a 40ft but the images are not yet on line.





Poland have been building boats from the French and Italian shipyards for a long time, lots of them , It is time that more Polish brands join Delphia on the international market.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Kubota said:


> I didn't say, that Viko doesn't sail well. I just said, that it didn't impress me, especially the interior quality was poor. Visit the boat on a show, and you'll know wiat I'm talking about.
> 
> I like to sail fast, I'm not a lazy cruiser, and feel really happy with Sedna... 8.3kn isn't bad for a 9m centerboard cruiser
> My point wasn't to criticize or promote any boat. I just wanted to share my impressions about this interesting sailboats, whic were posted here(i consider myself to be the only one here who has seen them and sailed two of them(sedna 26 and 30)).
> 
> Btw, I would say, that you can make any boat, a really fast one. Excluding Delphia, most of the polish boatyards are open to your demands, so, as long as it doesn't mąkę the boat any dangerous, you can have anything you want-interior layout, rigging, keel, lifting keel, centerboard, extra ballast, bigger sails etc...


Kubota let me be clear, I was not saying badly about your boat that seems to be a nice one and I believe you when you say that the finish of the Viko is poorer. I was just pointing out that they are not the same kind of boat and the Viko seems to have a very nice and fast hull. It is certainly a performance boat way faster than your boat. again I am not saying that your boat is slow but it is not designed as Viko is with maximizing speed and some racing in mind.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I think you misunderstood me. I was simply saying that the boat in question has a very Euero look to it in nterms of it's overall styling. I like that look. It's not a look I would try to design because there are tool many designers who do that better than I do.

Your post shows some very beautiful boats that I would say, right or wrong, are in the "Euro" style.


----------



## PCP

*European, American boat design.*



bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> I think you misunderstood me. I was simply saying that the boat in question has a very Euero look to it in nterms of it's overall styling. I like that look. It's not a look I would try to design because there are tool many designers who do that better than I do.
> 
> Your post shows some very beautiful boats that I would say, right or wrong, are in the "Euro" style.


Sorry if I did not understand why you have posted your 46ft with that coment regarding European style.

I really don't believe that we can talk about an European style:



























We have basically contemporary designs that have a more or less strong inspiration in traditional and classical forms and we have contemporary modern designs. Among the moderns there are several lines, from relatively narrow boats to very beamy boats with strong influence of the solo racing boats. All of them have modern underbodies. I cannot see a single line that you can call European but several design lines.

And then if we have an European style we would have an Australian and NZ style and an American style. Regarding NZ and Australian designers they work for European boat builders, some Americans too.

On this times of globalization I cannot see what is a contemporary American boat style.

Sure you design nice boats but are they American designs belonging to an American style? I am not saying that there is not one but if there is I would like to understand what it is. I mean probably we can talk about a 60's and 70's American boat style but now, regarding contemporary design in these days of globalization?

What is the sharp edge of the American contemporary yacht design? and in what is different from the European one, assuming there is an European one as you say.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Beautiful shots on that last post, Paulo.. What boat is that one that's snow/ice bound??


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## tschmidty

All beautiful boats there. It sounds like you take euro style to be said with a bad intent which I didn't get. The last picture in your post is what I would certainly refer to as a euro style which I happen to really like but those lines (mainly the arch shape to the cabin top front to back) are reflected in 4-5 of the boats pictured.

As far as American style, just take euro style and subtract the style and innovation and there you have 'american' style. American buyers just seem to like tried and true and with the state of the american sailing scene it's really hard for a boat builder to want to take chances so hard to blame them.

Personally I am trying to figure out how to get some of these beautiful boats over here to my neck of the woods!


----------



## PCP

*Bestevaer 56ST*



Faster said:


> Beautiful shots on that last post, Paulo.. What boat is that one that's snow/ice bound??


That is the same design posted below, a Bestevaer 56ST a Gerard Dijkstra design. I mean below here and below on previous post.



This is a 55ft with a fixed keel:



Tranquilo, the boat that is "planted" on the ice*"according to the designer, this yacht is to be classified as 'Spirit of Tradition', being traditionally styled but showing powerful performance characteristics such as a fine entry, shallow canoe body, lift keel and a balanced spade rudder, Hall Spars carbon mast and carbon Park Avenue boom, North Sails 3DL sails, one-line reefing system and water ballast tanks.
.....
The customer opted for a Bestevaer after a sea trial with Bestevaer 53 ST 'Alice'. According to him, the yacht performed extremely well. He was looking for a fast yacht that he would be able to handle single-handedly"*

http://www.techmarineyd.it/Bestevaer 56ST Tranquilo.pdf

Well, if some that posted on a thread about size and safety are reading this they should be thinking this guy is crazy and that such a big boat cannot be solo sailed safely. Well they are wrong:

*"The Bestevaer 56ST Tranquilo was stuck in the snow and ice way up in Northern Canada for 10 months(!), and just last month broke free. Four of those months were spent in near complete darkness. The owner has been world cruising the beefy 56 for five years. Singlehanded."*

snowed in | Sailing Anarchy

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I understand that. It;'s just a quick way out for me. You are surrounded by all those beautifull European boats and I am not. I am generalizing and that's nevr good.

I am a big fan of Dijkstra's work. Those are my kind of boats combining classic good looks with top performance. He is a talented designer.

I don't care for the Fairlie. I love that boat in your last pic. What is that?


----------



## PCP

tschmidty said:


> .. It sounds like you take euro style to be said with a bad intent which I didn't get....


No, it is not that it just that I don't believe there is a Euro style. Too many different lines of design to define a style.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Advanced Yachts*



bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> .... I love that boat in your last pic. What is that?


http://www.advancedyachts.it/a66/photogallery-esterni/

It is an Advanced 66 a Reichel & Pugh design with a Nauta design interior. Yes it is one of my favorites. It is amazing how such a sleek boat has such luxurious interiors:

Have a look:

Photogallery ? A66 interni | ADVANCED - Italian Yachts

Have some fun here:

http://www.advancedyachts.it/a66/virtual-simulator/

They are doing a 60ft, a Felci design/ Nauta design that I like even more:

Photogallery ? A60 Cruise esterni | ADVANCED - Italian Yachts

Photogallery ? A60 Race esterni | ADVANCED - Italian Yachts

Photogallery ? A60 Cruise interni | ADVANCED - Italian Yachts

Photogallery ? A60 Race interni | ADVANCED - Italian Yachts

The only problem would to chose between the two. Note that all interiors are from the version with a not raised deck. Plenty of light, I guess that I would not need that semi raised deck

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

It seems that the fun is over on the Open60 Gabart is managing to do with Riou what he had done with Le Cleash on the finish of the Vendee Globe: he is winning on the same course, slowly but relentlessly, mile by mile over Riou. Riou is now at 14nm and they approaching the Brazilian coast. All the others are losing to this duo.

On the Class 40 it is much the same, Rogues leading and Rietcher in 2nd able to maintain the 50nm distance to the leader but unable to win any distance. The news come from the all Spanish team (Pella) that is the only boat in the fleet winning distance to the leader. They are now 3th at 56nm from Riecher. A pity the considerable time they lost in repairs on the Spanish coast. Will they be able to close on Riechers? It seems more probable than Riechers closing on Rogues.

The M70 have already finished the race in the same position they have maintained through most of the race (Josse won) and in M50 Yves seems unable to catch Le Roux.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

Some great movies regarding the last days on the race:





Résumé de 11 jours de course - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_





Day 8's resume - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 _por TransatJacquesVabre_

*Mini transat:*

Big news on that one!!!!

For many days Pedote was leading but not anymore. Benoit Marie is Leading and they give Pedote at 20Nm. Delesne that should be ahead now had problems. Really bad luck for him:

*The skipper of TeamWork Proto diverted to the island of La Palma due to failure of his fuel cell. Faced with repeated battery failures since leaving Sada, Bertrand had to helm for much of the time since the beginning of the race. He has completed repairs and will back into the race immediately he has completed the minimum 12 hour stop period imposed by the sailing instructions.*

I have to say that looking at the weather information I don't buy those 20nm distance between the two first but it is clear to me now that Pedote's option was a bad one. The guys that do the classification were right but I believe they are exaggerating and that Pedote will have no problem in recovering that distance as soon as he starts to sail NW.

On Series boats Justine leaved Kostner behind and it is now 2dn at only 9.9Nm from Aymeric. I am starting to be a Fan: Go girl go!!!!! They are all making an incredible race and are among the first protos.



Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


----------



## PCP

*Hunter 40*

The Hunter 40 seems to be the best designed Hunter ever, even if I don't like it too much, it is an improvement over previous designs.

Here you have a static review and the boat sailing.


----------



## bobperry

I'd have a hard time pinning down orn defining "American Style" but I think I know it when I see it. The same for "Euro style". Granted it's a broad generalization and many European boats don;t fit into that box but once again, I think I know it when I see it. Maybe I should have said "one of the Euro styles".

This is what I thimnk of as an American style boat:

IMG]http://i950.photobuc[ket.com/albums/ad347/rhpbob/Jody4002_zps0a7de3c9.jpg[/ 
[URL=http://s950.photobucket.com/user/rhpbob/media/Jody4002_zps0a7de3c9.jpg.html]


----------



## robelz

Benoit Marie is now heading to the south, so I guess he will loose rank 1 in the next hours. Maybe Pedote did the very best decision? He might eat up lots of miles against Marie...


----------



## PCP

*European yacht design / American yacht design*



bobperry said:


> I'd have a hard time pinning down orn defining "American Style" but I think I know it when I see it. The same for "Euro style". Granted it's a broad generalization and many European boats don;t fit into that box but once again, I think I know it when I see it. Maybe I should have said "one of the Euro styles".
> 
> This is what I thimnk of as an American style boat:


I understand what you mean but that is as representative of American yacht design as Dijkstra classical designs are representative of European yacht design. In fact they are not, they are classical/modern Dutch designs.

The boat you have posted is not modern in a sense that it is not designed strictly with form/function in mind and beauty is searched not only by the fulfillment of a program but through a composition were a vernacular "language" is essential, even in prejudice of performance.

In that sense we can say that there is an American style an then you are right and your boat is a very nice example as are S&S late designs, including the ones for Morris yachts. But regarding that type of boats we cannot talk about European classic/traditional yachts, but about British classics, Dutch classics, French classics and Italian classics. Their traditional boats don't share entirely the same vocabulary.

But as those sailboats are in America and Europe very marginal in what regards today's production and does not represent the edge in contemporary design I don't think we can make them representative of contemporary American or European yacht design and we cannot say they are the American design style, or the European one.

Regarding American yacht studios I would say that the two more representative in the world panorama today are Farr yacht design and Reichel&Pugh, followed by Morrelli&Melvin, Tripp design and Mills design. They design for Europeans and for Americans and that design that you liked and that someone said it was typically European was in fact made in America by a American studio, this one:



When a design is made following form/function and is modern in the true sense of the word (modern art) it makes no difference to be designed by an American or an European studio in what regards style: They are using the same top knowledge in what regards hydrodynamics and using the same information that comes from racing so the hulls (following the different tendencies in racing) are very similar as well as the superstructures that are designed to have minimum windage and in what regards cruising, to maximize interior light.

Some yachts designed by American studios or by American NA:































Now what really make me pissed and if I was American I was even more is why all this great American studios work more for Europeans than for american shiphyards?

What in my opinion makes production American boats worse than the Europeans has not to do with building and but with quality in design.

While European mass producers call the best NA in the world to make their designs (including american studios), the American ones design them in the house with 2th rate NA. One of the few exception I know is C&C that had called Mills for designing their new boat. There is also Summit yachts but any of them are very small shipyards specialized in fast cruiser-racers not really big mass production builders like Hunter or Catalina.

Bottom point after the the rant: Your beautiful 46ft is certainly representative of American classic yacht design but I would not say that is representative of contemporary American yacht design as a whole. So in a way you are right when you say "*American style boat*" referring to your design.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> Benoit Marie is now heading to the south, so I guess he will loose rank 1 in the next hours. Maybe Pedote did the very best decision? He might eat up lots of miles against Marie...


yes Pedote is first Again.

I file a protest

The weather information they give to us is a ****ty one compared with the one the racers have access. With the wind Benoit Marie has on the map he would not have to go South and the difference in speed to Pedote would be minimal if any. Both have wind on the same direction and according to the map weather information Benoit has 14K and Pedote has 16K. Clearly not the case Clearly Pedote new about that for a long time, I mean at least 24 hours or more.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre*

Incredible that Spanish team on the Marcelino Botin boat: They and the 4th (Bestaven) are the only ones winning over the leader and are closing on Riechers (2nd). 42nm to recover, less that the ones Riecher needs to recover to the first (Rogues).

Fast on a class 40:





Jour 13 - Solidaires en Peloton - Transat... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

.....

On Open 60, nothing new with Gabart controlling Riou.


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> I follow you, Paulo. Those eyes ...


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Hunter 40*



PCP said:


> The Hunter 40 seems to be the best designed Hunter ever, even if I don't like it too much, it is an improvement over previous designs.
> 
> Here you have a static review and the boat sailing.


Traditional American boats&#8230;
I think the issue is comparable to American cars. Or even better: motorcycles.
Harley Davidsons e.g. are wonderful machines and also loved by many in Europe, especially to look at and certainly to listen to. But from a technical point of view -let me put this in elegant terms- very traditional. 
Nice to see, nice to be seen with and therefore nice to have. But certainly not if you also want performance and state-of -the art technology. 
I'd also like to have a Harley to show off on a sunny Sunday afternoon, but certainly not to get me to work and back day by day and in any weather. That's why I have a RT for a bike instead of a Harley. And a S3 for a car, instead of a Camaro. And a Pogo for a boat.

Of course then there's the other category of American boats like Hunter. Supposing to compete with Bavaria, Hanse, Jeanneau, Bénéteau etc. 
I think Hunter is no match for them and by far. If it weren't for the very traditional American boat market, they would already have disappeared long time ago.
Very different from traditional American yachts or Harleys, they're a pain in the eye. And also a pain on the water, just look at the video of the 40' in Sidney bay. Heavily reefed in what doesn't even look like 15 knots of wind, heeling and sludging through the water with an unbalanced sailplan. Probably quite a challenge but certainly not rewarding at the helm.

As said many times before: "degustibus et coloribus non est disputandum". 
But even inside (who the hell needs two separated showers on a 40 footer?) I'm only impressed by the huge flatscreen TV. Don't we go to our boat to get rid of shore based worries such as TV?
In my honest opinion, this is not much more than a floating caravan.

What worries me even more is the building quality of this brand. 
Some years ago we bought three Hunter 18's for our sailing school. We thought this would be an upgrade after our good old Caravelles. 
A huge mistake. 
These boats are built to take your grandparents and/or grandkids to a peaceful anchorage on a peaceful lake and a windless day. 
As soon as you start really sailing, everything breaks down one by one. Rudder, daggerboard, mast, rigging, sails, you name it. In the past five years we had to replace and/or rebuild almost everything, not on one but all of our three boats.
Now we have restored our good old Caravelles and await eagerly the writing off of these Hunters to get rid of them as soon as possible. And probably order new Caravelles.

So now you know: I don't like Hunters at all.

Best regards

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Re: Hunter 40*



EricKLYC said:


> ...
> 
> Of course then there's the other category of American boats like Hunter. Supposing to compete with Bavaria, Hanse, Jeanneau, Bénéteau etc.
> I think Hunter is no match for them and by far. If it weren't for the very traditional American boat market, they would already have disappeared long time ago.
> ... they're a pain in the eye. And also a pain on the water, just look at the video of the 40' in Sidney bay. Heavily reefed in what doesn't even look like 15 knots of wind, heeling and sluggish through the water with an unbalanced sailplan. Probably quite a challenge but certainly not rewarding at the helm.
> 
> .....
> 
> So now you know: I don't like Hunters at all.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Eric


Well Eric, I posted those movies for not be accused of not posting about American boats but it is probably suited to re-post this post about the Hunter 40. Only looking at the hull I could saw that the boat was not going to sail properly with any considerable amount of heel, like the one we see on some of those images the ones that lead you say to say* " heeling and sluggish through the water ... Probably quite a challenge but certainly not rewarding at the helm. "*:



PCP said:


> ....
> 
> The first photos of the boat had surprised me. The boat looked modern and nice:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got interested and I thought: Finally they got one of the main NAs to design their boats.
> 
> They say about it:
> 
> *Whether you are a day sailor or serious cruiser, the new Hunter 40 is designed to please. Her superior sailing characteristics are honed from her 65 predecessors to emerge from our design center.
> 
> Built in the United States, she is crafted by people who understand and respect the sea. We chose to launch the new H40 on our fortieth anniversary with the desire to create a sailing vessel that exceeded the expectations of the past forty years.
> 
> Come experience the new H40 with her dual helm control, fold-down transom, chined hull and dual heads. Our hand-crafted interiors are made to fit each boat, not the other way around. The result is an interior fit and finish that is as functional as it is beautiful.*
> 
> Hum, that is odd they don't say who is the designer and they talk about a "design center"???
> 
> Well the boat has a chined hull, that should be a modern hull???, and then I saw this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This looks like the shape of a 10 or 15 year's old cruiser!!! That is really odd&#8230; and I start to look for hull designs and 3D renderings&#8230;and I found none!!!???? Very odd, that would be unthinkable in an European brand. I am confused.
> 
> The American Sailors are not interested in the hull, keel and rudder design of the boat that they are going to buy? Then I started to look for the name of the boat designer and again&#8230;nothing!!!??? I thought that was not possible, the name of the designer gives an assurance of quality, everybody wants to know who designs his boat?!!
> 
> Well maybe not, at least not in America, not for Hunter, they have not the name anywhere so I guess it is designed in house by their " design center"!!!???
> 
> That is unheard except for some small brads where the owner is the designer and build to very small market niches. In what regards big brands and main market, they all have in house architects but they do not design the boats they make the interface between what the brand wants and the best world Architectural Naval offices that actually design the boats.They also help in the building, adjusting small details and modifying small things.
> 
> Well, the "in house Hunter design center" is not what I would have called as a major name in boat design.
> 
> After looking a lot I could find out some pictures that show actually something about the hull design, besides the global shape of the boat:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That chine is really odd, a very hard one that will not allow the boat to sail well except with very little heel, otherwise creating a lot of drag. That kind of chine, I mean a very marked one (even if not so extreme) will give a lot of hull stability and prevents heeling but will not be appropriated to a boat that has the max beam forward. That demands a large beam and all the beam brought back, like on the Benetau 41, a boat with 4.20m of beam:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But even so we can see that the Chine transition is a much softer one allowing the boat to have a maximized hull form at angles of heel till 17º or so and after that allowing the boat to sail close upwind at greater angles without generating a lot of drag:
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> The last picture is from a Jeanneau 409 a boat that has not the beam so brought back as the Benetau Oceanis 41, a hull that in its overall shape is more similar (even if more modern) than the one from the Hunter 40, also with a chine but with a even more soft transition than on the Oceanis and that is natural because having the Jeanneau less beam and max beam more forward it will sail upwind with more heel.
> 
> So a good question is what is the Hunter 40 beam? On the main site they have 12'2'' or 4.01m????? and on the PDF they have 13'2'' that is equivalent to 4.01m. Here on a more detailed file (that has also beam at waterline they give again 12'2'' and again 4.01m!!!!. I guess that it is really 12'2'' (the boat don't seem to have much beam) and in that case it should be *3.71m*. That makes that hull transom design and the hard chine even more odd since this boat will heel even more than the jeanneau 409 ( Beam 3.99m) going close upwind.
> 
> Marlow-Hunter vs Marlow-Hunter 2013 vs 2013 Hunter 40 vs Hunter 40 Sailboats
> 
> Regarding ballast and ballast ratio/type of keel in what regards RM, I cannot say all because I could not find any picture or drawing of the boat with the keel in the fin configuration. We know that the draft is 2.03m and that the B/D is on the low side (27.5%). I hope that this boat has a modern keel with all the ballast on the bottom otherwise it would be really on the very low side.
> 
> The boat has not much beam neither a big B/D ratio (or a big draft) so this will make it not a powerful boat and not able to carry much sail. The weight is on the high side (8936Kg) and that makes it comparable with the more heavier European mass production boats, like the Bavaria 40 (8680kg) or the Hanse 415 (8900kg ). The sail area is surprisingly bigger 93.46 m2 (to 82m2 and 84.5m2) since both the Bavaria and the Hanse are more powerful boats, with more RM, this means that the Hunter is a more tender boat and a boat that would have to reef a lot sooner than any of the other boats.
> 
> If the boat looks well at ¾, on the side it looks a bit odd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't understand the boom traveler not to be on the axis of the support structure. That will create an arm and will multiply the force that will be made on the structure and on that panel that I find really ugly:
> 
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> 
> View from the back, I find the design too heavy, with a too high transom to my taste:
> 
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> 
> Regarding the interior it has a very good galley and a nicely overall distributed interior, especially in what regards the two cabin version.
> 
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> 
> In what regards design, it seems that, contrary to any European brand, it is also made at home in their "design center" and it shows. The comparison with any European brands, that have their interiors designed by the best interior designers, is evident. For what I have saw on other Hunters this difference in the interior quality, as well as in general, is not one of material quality, that is similar to the one of the European boat builders, but one of design quality.


Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

Sorry for the prolonged absence but I am traveling this week and in meetings most of the day and evening.

But I wanted to chime in to say that it is now looking like Pedote is also a tactical and meteo genius. Not only has he regained the lead from Benoit Marie, the two of them are crushing the rest of the Proto fleet, and it is now a question of whether Marie can hang on to the rear wheel of Pedote as they continue up the Alpe d'Huez to the finish. 

But my analogy is not a good one since Pedote has tremendous leverage on Marie, being further south and able to sail a hotter angle. He was showing > 2 knots more boat speed during the last update. What happened to Delesne and the others is astonishing. Everyone who chose the northern route around the islands was destroyed... except Marie. 

What is perhaps the most amazing thing about this race, however, is the performance of Belloir and Mettraux, in the Series. The are actually threatening to beat most of the Proto class, and Belloir is on Pedote's line and, presumably, in similar weather. Mettraux is further north and, like Marie, seems to have sufficient speed for now to hang with the leaders. I don't think anyone could have predicted such an incredible race for those two, and I am looking forward with much excitement to the next few days.


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## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> ... What happened to Delesne and the others is astonishing. Everyone who chose the northern route around the islands was destroyed... except Marie.
> ....


Delesne would be ahead of Marie if he had not bad luck. In fact now we know how incredible was his race and performance. He almost did not have energy for the autopilot and was hand steering day and night. But he could not take anymore and had to make a pit stop in the Canaries. As the rules say that in that case he has to stay put 15 hours he lost that to all the others and any chance to win the race. stupid rule in my opinion.

Now about all those things that have destroyed all those rudders at speed:

*"Around 3am yesterday morning brian noticed something caught around the starboard rudder. He called me on deck and we could see what looked like a piece of rubber or rope trailing 1m behind the rudder. I tried to free it but could not get hold of it so we decided to slow down the boat, snuff and drop the spinnaker and turn the boat into wind to stop it. Having done all this I went back to grab the obstruction to look straight into the head af a shark caught around the rudder. It was about 1.5m long and we had hit it in the middle and it had curved around the rudder. What we could see coming out of the water was its tail. We backed down and it fell off and we went on our way, don't think the shark was so lucky."*

If they had hit a big one it would be them without luck because that rudder would probably break.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## darksails




----------



## Faster

Dark.. I've resized your image.. such large pictures mess up the entire page.. please downsize your image before posting, Thanks..


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## robelz

Mare is closing to GDF (42nm), but Tales Santander is way faster than both leaders...


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## robelz

The Hunter is one of the fugliest boats wearing chines I've ever seen...


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## robelz

GDF - 37nm - mare - 34nm - Tales Santander. Doldrums are coming now. I think it is all open!

MACIF continues raising distance, (but only) 21nm now...

If the meteo is even close to the wind the Class40 will have, they will go upwind all the time through the doldrums witz 3-6kn of wind. If routing isn't perfect all the time they might even stand still with 0kn!


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## robelz

Fotók

Does anyone know this new IMOCA? Who is the NA?

EDIT: If I understood the video right, "Nandor Fa" ist the sailor and the NA in one...


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## PCP

robelz said:


> Fotók
> 
> Does anyone know this new IMOCA? Who is the NA?
> 
> EDIT: If I understood the video right, "Nandor Fa" ist the sailor and the NA in one...


Design: Nándor Fa & Attila Déry - Hungary

I will come to it when I will have time.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> Mare is closing to GDF (42nm), but Tales Santander is way faster than both leaders...


Yes I agree, while on the Open60 race few will think that Riou is going to recover those 20nm till the finish line on the 40class race things are much more interesting and open.

It is normal that the two that chase the leader will close now since he is entering the doldrums and that is what happening with Riechers at only 37 nm and Pella at 72nm. The next two days will be very decisive to this race.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

Regarding the Mini transat race I don't think that Pedote had made a good option with that detour: He was about 50nm ahead of the second now it is at 8nm and I din't see a big tatical advantage on his position regarding the one of Benoit Marie. Anyway, hot race

Regards

Paulo


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## robelz

YACHT tested the SF3600 for the new issue. Haven't read the test yet but on their website they claim that it is (of course) a blast downwind and that they were impressed by its upwind performance, too...


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## PCP

*SunFast 3600*



robelz said:


> YACHT tested the SF3600 for the new issue. Haven't read the test yet but on their website they claim that it is (of course) a blast downwind and that they were impressed by its upwind performance, too...


I hop they will post a nice movie

I have read the test sail of Voile and Voiliers and the say the same but where even more impressed with the upwind boat performance. Well we knew already before the boat hit the water that it was going to be a very fast boat but the real question here is: It will be faster than the JPK 10.80?

I guess we will only now on the next Transquadra.

Regards

Paulo


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## robelz

*Re: SunFast 3600*



PCP said:


> I hop they will post a nice movie
> 
> I have read the test sail of Voile and Voiliers and the say the same but where even more impressed with the upwind boat performance. Well we knew already before the boat hit the water that it was going to be a very fast boat but the real question here is: It will be faster than the JPK 10.80?
> 
> I guess we will only now on the next Transquadra.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Obviously it'll be much cheaper and I guess the 1080 will have a way better interior...


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

The class 40 race is red hot. Time for strategical options at the entrance of the doldrums and the 1st, Rogues took a different option than the one taken by Riechers (2nd) and Pella (3rd). The one from Riechers and Pella looks better to me but I have already figured out that their weather information is a lot better than the one that they give to us so....let's see. Anyway super interesting.

Riechers is much closer to Rogues (29nm) and Pella closer to Riechers (30nm). Can it look better regarding a good fight for the victory? 

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

On the mini transat race we have also a super interesting situation with Pedote and Benoit Marie very close (10nm) entering a big area of very weak and unstable wind. The next two days will be probably decisively for the race and most of it as to do with the right tactical decisions.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


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## PCP

*Re: SunFast 3600*



robelz said:


> Obviously it'll be much cheaper and I guess the 1080 will have a way better interior...


Cheaper the Sunfast....but not much. Anyway if you are a racer with the price of top sails carbon mast and all, it will not be significant.

Not on the race version, I mean the interior. The real bonus of the JPK is that he would have two versions, a race and a cruising one.

Regards

Paulo


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## robelz

*Re: SunFast 3600*



PCP said:


> Cheaper the Sunfast....but not much. Anyway if you are a racer with the price of top sails carbon mast and all, it will not be significant.
> 
> Not on the race version, I mean the interior. The real bonus of the JPK is that he would have two versions, a race and a cruising one.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Even the race version will have e.g. more wood, real wooden cupboards... Don't you think so?


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## PCP

*Re: SunFast 3600*



robelz said:


> Even the race version will have e.g. more wood, real wooden cupboards... Don't you think so?


I will tell you when I see the boat

By the way two hours later and Riechers is at only 26nm from the 1st and Pella is at only 48nm. Pella the third is the fastest.

Great race and super race for the Spanish team that if had not lost time making a pit stop in Spain would be already leading the race. An amazing recovery: Go Pella go!!!

Robelz, I bet you will say the same...but for Riechers

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Le Cleach beating the Med record. Incredibly good movie!!!*





Banque Populaire sur le record de la Méditerranée _por CourseAuLarge_

Someone knows why he is not doing the Transat?


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## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre*

Incredibly and unexpectedly Riou has managed to reduce his distance to Gabart in half on the last hours He is now at only 11nm and going 2.3k faster. Something wrong with Gabart's boat or sails?

A look at the leading 40fter:





Jour 13 - GDF - SUEZ (Class40) - Transat... _por TransatJacquesVabre_


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## robelz

As you say, there is something wrong. MACIF is dismasted... (


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## robelz

Seems the southerly route @ Minitransat is the right one cause now all Minis head to the south. Marie is now on a similar Latitude as Pedote withoud going south that early and only 25nm behind...


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## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> As you say, there is something wrong. MACIF is dismasted... (


*Whilst leading the IMOCA Open 60 Class of the Transat Jacques Vabre two handed race from Le Harvre to Itajai, Brasil MACIF was dismasted around 0000hrs UTC on Wednesday (into Thursday) night whilst sailing some 140 miles from Salvador de Bahia, Brazil. French co-skippers Francois Gabart and Michel Desjoyeaux immediately informed Race Direction so they could warn shipping in the area in order that could avoid colliding with MACIF. Both sailors are reported to be safe and sound and have secured the boat by cutting away the rig. They are headiing towards Salvador de Bahia. Further information will be disseminated when it becomes available.....Vincent Riou, racing with Jean Le Cam on second placed PRB, was just 11 miles away when MACIF's rig came tumbling down.*

That is really hard for them and sad for the race. Maybe they had already problems on the rig and that's why they were losing so much for Riou.

It seems that Riou will have no problem for winning the race even if Marc has recovered 25Nm in one day and is now second at 61Nm. It will be very dificult if not impossible to recover that distance till the finish line.

On 40class the Spanish team in 3rd continues to be the fastest boat (24h) winning over the 2nd (Riechers) and 1st (Rogues). Riechers is also winning on Rogues and is now at only 22nm while the 3th is at only 19nm from him. But the worst of the doldrums is still ahead and it looks really bad for all with a big area almost without wind on their course. Right now on the last 2 hours the fastest boat is the leader with a small margin to the 3th.

It will be really interesting to see how they will manage the pot au noir and in what position they will come out of it.

..........

On the mini transat also very light winds for now and for many hours ahead. It will be very interesting because it is just in very light winds that Pedote's bow tube racer will be at a disadvantage face to more conventional boats. In fact while he had good pressure he was able to go away but now he is about 2.5K slower than the one that is in second, Benoit Marie (at 26nm). It will be very interesting to see how to compare the performance of the two boats in light wind.

regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Black Pepper code 1*

I have already talked about the Code 0 from black Pepper code 0 a boat that I saw on a boat show and gave me an irrational desire to own one. The boat is very far away from what I need regarding my sailing program but the boat is so beautiful, so well made and so obviously fast that I bet that many that will buy them never thought about having a boat like that....but just fall in love with the boat. That's that kind of boat

Here the Code 0






Now they have an all new Code 1, kind of a bigger sister designed according the same principles but with more cruising potential (weekender) a Marc Lombard design with 40ft, 4m of beam, 4000kg of weight and a B/D ratio of 55% with all lead ballast on a profiled swing keel with 3.00m draft (1.2m when up). It is not needed to be a genius to understand that this is an incredibly stiff boat and in fact it can carry a ridiculous amount of sail What would you say about a 4000kg daysailer and luxury boat that can carry 110m2 of sail upwind?

That is the amount of sail that normally a 40ft typical performance cruiser carries, with a small detail : *they weight almost the double.*

and what to say about the 260m2 that it can carry downwind.

Maybe now you guys can understand why I desired the first one and I even desire more this one. It is not only an absolutely gorgeous boat, something you would love and cherish, but an incredibly fast boat that will give tons of fun and pleasure sailing and that will leave behind many racers.

Take a look:


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## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*





Jour 15 - Safran (IMOCA) - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

And it is this boat with Marc and Pacal that was the fastest on the last 24h. It is a pity they are so close from the finish. I don't believe that they can win 45Nm to Riou. Last day they have recovered 23nm but besides great sailing they had luck with the wind. That is about 1nm/hour for 24 hours. They will arrive in about 2 days and a half. It would be needed a continuous win of about the same magnitude of the one on the last 24 hours for Marc to be able to overtake Riou.

Not impossible but hardly likely even if on the last 2 hours Marc won 1.8Nm.

Beyou is not far away from Marc and has been also faster than Riou. He is at only 10nm from Marc. Stamm is already far away.

Still a great race

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

On the class 40 for the first time Rogues is winning over the two pursuers that have chosen different courses. Rogues is not out of the weak winds but it is making much better speed than the other two and it will continue to win on the next hours but everything is still very much open.

On the mini transat not many changes: Pedote is maintaining the distance to Benoit Marie (25Nm) that is on the same course. The Bath tube bow racer is not losing much on the weak winds to Benoit's more conventional boat. They will have more weak winds ahead and we will be able to compare better the performance of both boats since they are on the same course now.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


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## PCP

*More about the loss of the mast on Gabart's boat*

The boat had not the same mast that made the vendee globe, but a new one, lighter to take weight from the boat. Bad choice I would say


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## robelz

The Code 1 is absolutely stunning. Maybe the most interesting sailboat in the whole thread...


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## robelz

Un trimaran aux couleurs du groupe Macif en 2015 | Macif Course au large
Did you recognize that Gabart follows Le Cleach into the Multihull circus?


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## PCP

*Gabart goes to multihulls.*



robelz said:


> Un trimaran aux couleurs du groupe Macif en 2015 | Macif Course au large
> Did you recognize that Gabart follows Le Cleach into the Multihull circus?


No, did no new that. It seems that these guys don't care if it is a monohull or a multihull, they just want to go faster and to arrive first, not in a class but overall and for that they need a multihull.

He joins not only Le Cleach but also Jean-Pierre Dick three of the most talented Ex Open60 sailors.

It seems that the top solo sailing class now are not the Open60 but the Mod70 even if it is hard for me to understand how they can sail those power monsters safely solo. The boats were initially conceived to be sailed by a crew of 6 only some few years back.

I guess that for them sailing an Open60 non stop around the world was too easy Certainly doing that on a monster like that will increase hugely the level of difficulty...and also the speed.

Maybe on the next Vendee we will see two classes: Monohulls and Multihulls

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

And has I have thought catching Riou in such a short time was almost impossible. Marc was again the fastest on the last 24 hours but recovered only 6Nm over Riou and it is now at 36nm. He is going to make a desperate attempt going near the beach were it seems to exist better wind but Riou has good wind till the finish line so no way to recover that distance. Unless something happens to his boat it seems we have a winner.

Curiously this two, I mean 1st and 2nd had very bad luck on the Vendee having both to retire on the beginning of the race, so good for them, they deserved not to have always bad luck.

On the 40class it seems that the 2nd and 3rd (Riechers and Pella) had done a huge mistake not following the course of the 1st (Rogues) trough the Doldrums. They were winning in pure speed and now they have lost hugely on the strategic play (or luck).

Fact is that Rogues is practically out of the Doldrums, still winning over both and have already increasedhis advantage over Riechers to 77nm and over Pella to 99. Those two lost in a day all that they have recovered with lots of work during almost a week.

That's racing. Let see what they are able to do now in pure speed since from now till the finish it is not complicated in what regards strategy.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

Regarding the mini transat:

On the weak winds (around 6K) it seems that Pedote's Bath tube bow racer is finally losing to the more conventional boat of Benoit Marie but not much, about 5nm on 24 hours. It seems that the weak wind is not constant and is mixed with 10/12K winds and that is just what Pedote's boat needs to be faster again, at least downwind.

In what regards downwind sailing the disadvantages of the bath tub boat face to a conventional design are really very small. It seems that only in very weak winds (8K or less) the boat is at disadvantage, but those winds are not frequent on the trade winds.

In about one day and a half Pedote is going to find typical trade winds, absolutely perfect conditions to his boat, between 14 and 17k and then he would say goodbye to everybody. Till then it is possible that Benoit can catch him or even overtake him by a small margin but then Pedote will go away easily.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

I guess this kind of proves (two consecutive victories on the transat) that the Bath tube bow concept is unbeatable in a transat or in a race done basically in the trade winds. I hope that this will make the difference for David Raison to get some commands to design 40class racers according to the same principle because if this works for the mini I cannot see no reason not to work for 40class racers, Open60's or any kind of sailboat to race on this conditions.

And it is not only me that thinks that way, much more knowledgeable people think the same. Look at this design by Riechel & Pugh for sailing on those conditions at record speed:







Probably the reason that there are not already 40class designs with a bath tub bow is because sailors aesthetically hate that bow as much as me but we will have all to adjust our tastes the same way we have adjusted regarding hugely beamy boats that once were looked as ugly as those bath tube boats are now. They used to call them "dishes", well, not anymore and almost all today will find an Open 60 a very nice design, even with the particularity of that huge beam.


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## robelz

The reason why there is no Scow-40 is because it is forbidden by the rules (maximum width in the foreship is limited)....


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## PCP

*class40 rule and Bath bow tube*



robelz said:


> The reason why there is no Scow-40 is because it is forbidden by the rules (maximum width in the foreship is limited)....


That was not on the rules last year:



I don't like the way the bathtube bow looks but this seems not right at all. It is a modification clearly intended to protect the existing fleet from innovation.

It would be understandable if there was a safety problem but that bow does not make the boats unsafe. Even if the harder motion could have been considered a safety problem they could have for safety reasons have draw a limit but this is ridiculous, what they say is that the bows remains like it is, and that's it French don't use to be so conservative but I guess they are not prepared to trow all the boats away. They would become obsolete in what regards a transat. That's sad anyway, specially for David Reason.

I heard that they are going to do the same thing regarding the Open60's rule.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

"This looks like the shape of a 10 or 15 year’s old cruiser!!! That is really odd…"

Nice one Paulo, I agree.


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## PCP

*Tantoon Class40 bathtub bow*

Thanks Bob!

Regarding the bathtub bow, on a class 40 doesn't look that bad, not really a bathtub bow now-more but a rounded one, at least on this nice study by Tanton, an American NA and also a member of this forum. (I hope he does not mind to have his designs posted here).





Tanton Yacht Design: Atlantic Cup 2013 -Newport


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

Nothing very interesting on the race right now: Le Roux has maintained the leadership om M50 and won the race, Riou is going to win on Open60. That plan from Marc to try to catch the wind near land turned sour and he risks to be cached by Beyou and on Class 40 Rogues continue to go away, having better weather conditions than the two pursuers (Riecher and Pella).

The attention for a "fait diver": Look at the priorities of Rogues and Delahaye when they commemorate the Equator crossing. First a toast to the sea that have allowed them to reach there, then to the boat that has stayed in one piece and only then to them that have being doing a fantastic race, leading fir a long time.

That's what I call having the priorities straight





JOUR 16 - GDF SUEZ (CLASS'40)- Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

On the mini transat as previewed on the very light winds Benoit is catching Pedote and it is at only 11nm now. These conditions will continue for a day or so being mostly light winds but happily to Pedote from tome to time there are patches of medium winds (10/12K) and that is all he needs to be faster again.

In less than two days he will have optimal conditions to his boat and then Benoit will not have any chance to keep up.


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## PCP

*Voyage boats: RM 1360*

Today I will post about a new voyage boat. Of course any cruising sailboat with a given size is able to voyage or to circumnavigate even if the ones that designed the boat never took that in consideration when they designed it. For voyage boat I mean the ones who were designed taking voyaging in consideration as one of the main points of its sailing program.

There are not a single type of voyage boat and in what regards this particular several types are chosen by different types of sailors: From slow but very resistant steel boats, passing by aluminum centerboarders, sturdy fiberglass boats to more light and fast sailboats built in several materials.

The RM 1360 (44ft) belongs to the last category: Fast voyage boats as Marc Lombard sees them, a new boat that comes to substitute the successful 1300, a very similar one.

The boat is built of marine plywood and epoxy, materials that are strong and can be easily repaired. This shipyard is building voyage boats with this material for decades and it is one of the few that have not been affected by the crisis. It is a very well proven recipe.

For many years these boats, that are primarily built as twin keels (even if they have a mono keel option) were exclusively used by French cruisers but on the last years there has been a vast interest from other European countries and last year the smaller brother (1260) won the European contest in the category of family boats, a considerable feat if we consider that category is the one that regards the main market and this is not properly a main market boat.

The twin keel version even if not as performant as the mono keel does not lose much in speed or pointing ability (incomparably less than the typical wing keel versus deep draft fin) and allow the boat to be beached for repairs or cleaning the hull. That's the most sold version by far.

These boats in what regards hull concept follow the line of Open solo racers that provide easily driven boats boats with a great stability, huge interior space and lots of power. Not a boat indicated if someone wants to voyage in the wrong direction, I mean against the prevailing winds, but those that do that are almost existent and the rule regards extensive voyaging is to follow the trade winds. On that case this boat offers a huge directional stability, very little roll, easy to run on autopilot even at speed, adapted to solo sailing, little heel while sailing and a very good speed. Basically what offer their racing cousins that are designed that way by the same reasons: easy speed downwind.

Speed in a sailboat has a lot to do with weight and this is a light boat (9400kg) and also with stability and this boat with a beam of 4.5m a deep draft of 2.45m and all the considerable ballast (2950kg) on a lead torpedo, has plenty stability and power.

Of course, 2,45m can be a lot for cruising and some places and that's one of the reasons why the twin keel with 1.95m of draft is by far the more popular. You need a smaller draft? Sorry these are performance boats and without draft you don't have a decent performance and they don't have any option for that. To keep the performance it would be necessary a lifting or swing keel and they don't offer it because probably it would be a very expensive option.

These boats can look similar in the hull concept with for instance an Oceanis 45, but if we look to both hulls we can see that the bow sections on the RM are more elegant and less fat while the weight and mainly the sail area are very different:

Oceanis 45/Rm 1360: 10549kg to 9400kf and 100m2 to 112m2.





Well, let's the pictures speak for themselves:


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## Faster

Always been intrigued by these.. interesting that the visible chines don't scream 'homemade' anymore  Paulo have you been aboard an 'old' one that's been well used? Curious if they 'hold up' as well (or better) than the typical GRP boats.

Dual rudders an option? only on single keel?


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## PCP

Faster said:


> Always been intrigued by these.. interesting that the visible chines don't scream 'homemade' anymore  Paulo have you been aboard an 'old' one that's been well used? Curious if they 'hold up' as well (or better) than the typical GRP boats.
> 
> Dual rudders an option? only on single keel?


Yes, the have a very high price on the used market, even older ones and that means they hold up well. The only thing needed is a new painting from 7 or 10 years of use but this is an wood boat so if one is not too preoccupied with a pristine look its is a job that can be done by everybody.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Beautiful boat Paulo.

Keep in mind that chines are not new to yacht design. The first boat I sailed 53 years ago had chines. I sailed a lot of chine boats when I was young. Let me try to list them just for fun. These are all boats I sailed:

El Toro
Penguin
OK Dinghy
Snipe
Tasar
Gear 18
110
Mercury
Lightning
Star
210 Thunderbird

There must be more but I can't remember them right now.
Chnies were convenient when you were working in plywood.

Now chines have come into vogue. But don't be fooled. They work well on some designs and are of little use on others. But they will show up more and more. Why? because it is fashion!

I love a well placed chine. It can really accentuate the lines of the boat. In a boat that is travelling at more that text book "hull speed" a chine can flatten the butts and add some speed and some stability. But that is a very small number of boats.

While chines won't help the performance of boats with D/L's over 160 they won't hurt the performace either.

Chines are not new.


----------



## PCP

*Grand Portage Yachts GL40*

This is not really a yacht project but a basic idea for a yacht project but the drawings are so nice and so "American" that I will post them.

Obviously the design is not of a "modern" boat in a sense that it is a boat that recovers a lot of traditional American design iconography in a beautiful way on a hull that even if we cannot call modern seems not bad, given the boat typology.

The designer is Rick Sones, the one that worked (works?) with Bob Perry in what regards the illustration of Bob's boats. I don't know if Bob helped on the design but it shows clearly influences of Bob Perry work, and that's not a bad thing, quite the contrary.


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
"SONADORA" is the name Rick posts under and is the name of his current Perry designed Baba 30 that he keeps emaculate. On SA we just call him "Sons". Rick is very skilled at 3d renderings and he has worked with me in the past. But this boat you are posting is all Rick's work. I can't take any credit for it.

I dropped Rick a message telling him to come on over here and talk about his design. I'm sure he will be very happy to see Paulo has posted it. Well done Paulo!


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

It is almost finished in what regards Open60's: Riou is at just some miles to the finish line with an advantage of 46nm over Marc. That desperate Marc's attempt to go very near the beach to get wind had bad results. He was overtaken by Beyou and had to work a lot to manage to overtake him again. Beyou is at 14nm from Marc now and those should be the final results of the race: 1st Riou, 2nd Marc, 3rd Beyou.

Here Riou and Le Cam at speed towards the finish line:





Jour 17 - PRB (IMOCA) - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 _por TransatJacquesVabre_

On 40class Rogues have managed to win on the Doldrums passage a huge advantage that is now of over 109nm over Riechers and continues to win over him so I would say that unless something nasty happen to him and his partner, they will be the ones that very deservedly will win the race. Riechers is losing for the 1st but not Pella (third) that is the fastest and is chasing Riechers.

That is the main point of interest on that race now. Pella had made a fantastic race. He was 2nd at the beginning of the race after having to make a pit stop in Spain to repair the wind instruments on the top of the mast.

When he had to divert to Spain he was at only 11nm from the leader and when he leaved Spain he has at 150nm from the 1st having lost about 140nm on that pit stop and being 8th on the classification. He is now at 118nm from the 1st and winning over the 2nd, Riechers.

He is now at only 8nm and I hope they will manage to overtake Riechers. They deserve it after that incredible recovery. That Botin designed boat is no doubt very fast and I bet that this performance will make Botin one of the more requested designers for 40class boats. a Spanish among many French designers

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

On the mini class racer on the light wind conditions Benoit managed to close on Pedote and is bathtube bow and was at only 5nm but wind pressure is increasing again and will remain strong probably for many days so I guess that recovery is over and now it is time for Pedote to put on all the superior power of his boat and to go away. Let's see if it is like that.

On series boat Aymeric is making a fantastic race and went away from their pursuers. Considering also Protos he is on 3th or 4th on the overall classification and that is just fantastic considering he is sailing a series boat.

Justine is also making a very good racer and has managed to overtake koster and is now 2th

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


----------



## PCP

*Finot 100ft*

We have already talked here about this boat that supposedly will be the fastest cruiser ever. To give you an idea of the dimensions of this boat, the draft is 3.00m...with the lifting keel up and 5.40m with the keel down. The sail area downwind is 1400m2

Even if I have few doubt that this boat will be the fastest on a transat I will be very curious to see how it will perform on a more conventional race with mixed winds and how it will compare with the cruiser that has been the fastest, Magic Carpet 3, a wally 100ft.

Finally the boat is on the water. Some pictures:


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> On the mini class racer on the light wind conditions Benoit managed to close on Pedote and is bathtube bow and was at only 5nm but wind pressure is increasing again and will remain strong probably for many days so I guess that recovery is over and now it is time for Pedote to put on all the superior power of his boat and to go away. Let's see if it is like that.
> 
> On series boat Aymeric is making a fantastic race and went away from their pursuers. Considering also Protos he is on 3th or 4th on the overall classification and that is just fantastic considering he is sailing a series boat.
> 
> Justine is also making a very good racer and has managed to overtake koster and is now 2th


Agree that Pedote is going to win this race when the breeze increases, barring any malfunction or misfortune. But I want to underscore your comment about Belloir. His performance has been nothing short of extraordinary. If you put him in a Proto he would likely be so far in front of everyone the race would have been settled days ago. And this is even considering the superiority of the 747 design - that is to say, Belloir is sailing his Nacira series boat far beyond any reasonable expectations, given the historic difference in performance between the Protos and Series boats. I don't know what his future plans are but if this doesn't take him to the next level of the sport, in terms of sponsorship, then something is wrong in the world. Truly a remarkable effort. Looking forward to the post race interviews where he reveals his secrets. 

Oh, and I mean no disrespect to Koster or Mettraux, both of whom have sailed a terrific race. But it has really been the Belloir show this time. And also have to give respect to Benoit Marie, the only Proto that has been able to keep pace with the scow. If he somehow manages to pull out the victory, it will be a chapeau moment for sure.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



MrPelicano said:


> ... And also have to give respect to Benoit Marie, the only Proto that has been able to keep pace with the scow. If he somehow manages to pull out the victory, it will be a chapeau moment for sure.


I would say that a mention should also been made to Deslene that was making a terrific race in 2nd pursuing Pedote even if with almost no autopilot and being almost constantly at the tiller.

He had to stop on Cabo Verde to exchange is electric combustible pile (to have autopilot again) and when he went out he was at 194nm of Pedote, he is now at 170.2, so he has been winning time not only over the 1st but also over the 3th and 4th even if he had lost a lot of time crossing a patch with no wind ( he was at 157nm of Pedote).

If he manages to finish in the last podium place it would be a huge accomplishment.

Regarding the Transat jaques Vabre, on Open60 Riou is the winner and if nothing wrong happens, Marc will be second:





IMOCA : passage de ligne PRB vainqueur à Itajaï... _por TransatJacquesVabre_





Jour 18 - Safran (IMOCA) - Transat Jacques... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

On class 40 Pella (2nd) continues to close on Riechers (3rd) and he is at only 5nm. He is also winning over the 1st (14nm on the last 16 hours). A pity Rogues had won so much on the doldrums passage.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Amazing 100'er Paulo. Love the engine room.
Interesting how far aft the mast is. There is a lot of turbulence coming off that leeward rudder in the one photo.


----------



## PCP

*Finot 100ft / 60ft Ourson Rapide*



bobperry said:


> Amazing 100'er Paulo. Love the engine room.
> Interesting how far aft the mast is. There is a lot of turbulence coming off that leeward rudder in the one photo.


Regarding the rig is a typicall rig of a big solo sailing boat.



It is designed to be easily handed with a relatively small main and three forward sails always on furlers. This boat is not designed to be sailed solo (it is just too big) but it is designed to be sailed with a much smaller crew than the one that are needed for sailing fast boats of this size. The boat is designed to be sailed by a crew of 3 or 4 and to take 12 passengers at the same time.

100 feet superyacht | finot-conq architectes navals

Regarding the turbulence I would say yes but this is a 51 000 kg boat and I really don't know if that turbulence is significant for a boat of this size and weight but I very much doubt Finot had got it wrong due to his huge experience with this type of hulls that has comes not only from racing boats but from cruising boats of this type.

I guess that if you liked this one you would also like to have a look at this 60ft, also from Finot:





It looks like a solo race boat while sailing but it isn't. It is a luxurious cruiser designed to be sailed by an experienced couple.

Of course it can be sailed like that (on the picture) or slower The rig and concept are much similar to the big sister, the 100fter.

Take a look at the interior that I would say is a very nice one and quite unsuspected in such a fast boat:





I prefer it to the one kind of "space ship" from the big 100ft but in what regards that the owners are the ones that choose and anyway it is a different designer for the interior in what regards style and details.

galleryCS3

Ourson Rapide | finot-conq architectes navals

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

That is an amazing interior. I really like the wrap around dining area. They used to do this on old boats. Love the CF steps. Who built that boat? Do you have any idea of the cost?
Nobody builds boats like that over here. Too bad.


----------



## Faster

Bob.. from a designer's and 'project' perspective would going from a project like, say Icon or the current PSC boat to a 100'er be a big leap?

Just looking at that engine room, there are some industrial grade valves and actuators, and very serious systems there (I suppose that detail work would be 'farmed out' in any case..)

Remember looking at an Able 60something at last years boat show and feeling a bit overwhelmed at the systems on that.


----------



## PCP

*Multiplast - Cigale 16, Pogo 50*

The French, because they have a lot of offshore top solo racing on IMOCA class and on big trimarans classes (and top means also that the boats become obsolete quite rapidly) have builders specialized in high technology building that have a lot of work.

It was one of those that built the Ourson Rapide, this one:

Racing multihulls - Multiplast

On America because racing is mainly on PHRF a rating that protects older boats, they don't become obsolete in what regards winning on compensate, that and a much smaller interest in sail racing (and sponsorship) does not probably justify or allow the existence of shipyards like Multiplast.

Regarding the price I would say between 3 and 4 million euros.

The "poor" cruiser's version of those boats is the Cigale, also based originally on a Finot design that was later picked up by Marc Lombard for the second version of the boat. The Cigale is a production boat built of aluminium by Alubat (the shipyard that makes the OVNI) and has quite a good price for such a boat, about 600/700 000 euros.






Or if one is really poor and is obliged to cruise in a spartan way, Finot has a really nicely priced (550 000 euros) production boat on the same principles, the Pogo 50, that has the advantage of a swing keel:

Pogo 50 | finot-conq architectes navals






Pogo-50 from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Paulo:
Swing keel or lifting keel? The site says lifting.
That is a great looking boat. Super cockpit.

" really poor"?
Things must be a lot better in Europe than they are here.


----------



## PCP

*Swing keel*



bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Swing keel or lifting keel? The site says lifting.
> That is a great looking boat. Super cockpit.
> 
> " really poor"?
> Things must be a lot better in Europe than they are here.


Regarding poor, I was kidding and I put a big there but all is relative: For having a 50ft boat, even a production one, one has not to be poor but comparing with the 3 to 4 million of euros that cost the 60ft one off, the cost of the aluminium 53 ft Cigale 16 (700 000 euros) or the price of the Pogo 50 (550 000 euros) is a very controlled price and in both cases, that is a lot of boat for the price, even comparing with the competition.

Regarding the keel I don't know were you saw that but probably it is an error of translation from French to English. The Pogos have or a fixed keel or a Swing one that is by far the more popular (I was talking about the Pogo, both the custom 100ft and the 60ft have lifting keels).

Here a Pogo 30 with the two keels:



Here a Pogo 50 with the swing keel:



In fact that keel started to be studied by Finot back in 78 and it is a small work of art. It occupies much less space than a a lifting keel making possible to be used by small sailboats. It is mechanical simple it works very well and is less expensive to build than a lifting keel.



That keel is now a big success and many French performance cruisers and even some voyage boats use that keel in their short draft versions. In some cases the weight of the ballast on a swing keel is less than the one on a deep draft keel because, even if deep, a keel for a cruising boat has to have a reasonable draft when on a small boat as a 35ft with a swing keel it is possible to have a draft of 2.80m with the keel down.



Regarding the Pogo 50 and its price, that is a high performance boat with Carbon mast swing keel and a high tech building: the boat weights only 8900kg. A boat like that has to be expensive and the Pogo manages to keep the price down. Anybody else offers that type of performance and versatility for an approximated price.

The owner of the boat that is on the video that I had posted before had made last year the ARC on the racing division with a relatively small crew of 5. Besides the owner one of then was the builder and other was the NA that works with Finot, Pascal Conq. They have fun and made a hell of a race, crossing in 13 days and 10 hours making 4th overall finishing among the big yachts, with many big ones behind.






regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*J111 - Blur team 2013 - Great movie*


----------



## PCP

*The ARC has started*

But it seems they are going on all directions



http://core.rock7mobile.com/arc2013


----------



## Sonadora

*Re: Grand Portage Yachts GL40*



PCP said:


> This is not really a yacht project but a basic idea for a yacht project but the drawings are so nice and so "American" that I will post them.
> 
> Obviously the design is not of a "modern" boat in a sense that it is a boat that recovers a lot of traditional American design iconography in a beautiful way on a hull that even if we cannot call modern seems not bad, given the boat typology.
> 
> The designer is Rick Sones, the one that worked (works?) with Bob Perry in what regards the illustration of Bob's boats. I don't know if Bob helped on the design but it shows clearly influences of Bob Perry work, and that's not a bad thing, quite the contrary.


Paulo,

Thank you for the kind words.

I thought I already posted to this, but I do not see it.

The concept behind the boat was to try to capture a 'Great Lakes' aesthetic (whatever that might be). So saying this boat looks 'American' I will take as a compliment. 

As Bob mentioned, I own a Baba 30 and I'm very fond of the Baba line. I am particularly enamored with the Baba 40 PH and that boat was a major influence in the design of the 'porch' on this boat. Particularly the windows.

Bob did not have any direct influence though I appreciated his critique. You will notice the keel in your top pictures is smaller than the lower pictures. That was one result of Bob's suggestions.

I have since removed the arch and have a more traditional traveler.

BTW...love the Finot swing keel!


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## robelz

Tales Santander overtook mare. They have been faster for so many days. The Botin design seems to be a blast!


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> Tales Santander overtook mare. They have been faster for so many days. The Botin design seems to be a blast!


Riechers is a great sailor, as well as Rogues and both have identically very fast Sam Manuard designed boats. For many time Rogues managed an advantage to Riechers and then Riechers was able to maintain that distance but unable to approach, at least in pure speed. Pella has been able to win on Rogues in pure speed and I believe that has something to do with the boat that quite amazingly, given the lack of experience of its designer on this type of boats, is the faster one.

Saying this, I would love that those 1200nm to the end would be enough for Pella to win over Rogues even if I think that would be almost impossible. An all Spanish team winning a French transat would be a blast

Cartographie Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 | Suivez la course en direct !

On the mini transat great sailing for Benoit Marie that managed to overtake for the first time Pedote and his bathtube bow racer. It happened on 12k winds that should give already and advantage to Pedote's boat but had to do with strategy and different courses. Benoit has and advantage of 6nm.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

But what really makes this race great is not only the stories of the leaders (that are professional sailors) but the stories of the other 60, the passionate, more or less amateurs that have dreamed with this race and from whom the more important is to make it and cross the Atlantic. They have fantastic stories to tell. Just two of them:

*Express repairs for Craig Horsfield: The South Africa navigator, who is based in Seattle, has contacted the Top 50, one of the vessels accompanying the race. He broke one of his rudders, went over the side to repair it and restarted immediately. All is well on board.
*

*Ludovic Méchin recounts his epic: "I arrived in Rabat towards dusk, towed into the channel by a pleasure craft. Firstly, I had to do 
all the paperwork. Then I got some sleep so I would be lucid by the time I started the repairs. A portion of the transom was ripped and another is delaminated inside. The next morning, on opening my email inbox in a cyber cafe, I found a message from three friends who warned me that they were on their way with tools and equipment. They arrived at 17.00 on the same day. Two cruising boats that were also in the harbor helped us a great deal too. Without this I would not have been able to leave.

It was raining, so, I had to do a repair with plywood and aluminum. Then, the passage to Lanzarote had to be done without much wind. Now I've beena ble to check up on the repairs, check the rig and the boat in general before moving on. I've also refuelled, because I ate almost everything on the detour to Rabat. I set out again in adventure mode, I'll make the crossing for myself, but especially for all those who helped me restart from Rabat. "

About the delivery to Sada after the cancellation of the first part of the race:

Sofie de Clercq (Ville de Marseillan)
"During my delivery, I had an autopilot problem. To get some rest I decided to heave to several times. But at no time did I think to stop. In any case, I'm really glad I did that. The scenery was really beautiful and I discovered something that I never would have known otherwise. In Minis, 35 knots is acceptable, but 40 knots, it's just too mutch ... "

Hugues Chollet (Soutenez le Bel Espoir)
"I never thought I'd be able to do what I did. When we left Gijon, we were not making headway, we couldn't make decent progress. Like many others, I stopped at Moras. At this time, I was at the bottom of a hole, really depressed. With some other competitors we found ourselves on one of the accompanying support boats where they gave us a good meal. The next day, morale had returned, it was almost beautiful. We knew there would be wind, but I told myself, this is a challenge, you have to go. We took a good bashing, but we made it. Looking back, I am proud to have managed it."

Robert Rosen Jacobson (Postillion Hotels):

"It is ironic that I am the first of the group to reach Sada. I honestly do not remember ever having met such difficult conditions in the Mini. But I started and was determined to make it to the end. On the passage around Cape Ortegal, the boat literally flew over the waves. I adopted a simple rhythm: let the autopilot steer and take refugee inside the boat, I watched the traffic on AIS and every fifteen to twenty minutes, I put my head out ... "

Ian Lipinski (Pas de futur sans numérique)
"The stop in Moras was a surreal. Two dozen Minis gathered in this industrial port, coupled up on buoys moorings. The most amazing moment was when Justine (Mettraux) and Clement (Bouyssou) took the decision to leave when Janus Tamme arrived in port with three reefs and a storm jib after being driven back from his passage round l'Estaca de Barres. You had to have some backbone to do that and to trust the files which forecast that the wind would ease off. "*

............

and shattered dreams:

*Katrina Ham capsizes outside Ribadeo: While delivering her boat to Sada, the Australian sailor reported a problem with her gooseneck and requested the assistance of an escort boat. On the outskirts of Ribadeo, she asked for a tow to enter the port. In the entrance channel a wave suddenly took the boat and capsized it. Katrina was not clipped on and fell into the water, but was immediately recovered by the Ribadeo's pilot. The sailor, who was very shocked, has been taken to hospital where she is under observation.
Katrina Ham (Shipyard Le Borgne), meanwhile, is out of the hospital. All is well, but she is still a very shocked sailor and her boat is not seaworthy.

Diane Reid Dismasted: The Canadian sailor informed the race management, through a cargo ship which was passing nearby, that her mast has broken. She has not requested assistance and just wants to be supported upon her arrival in Lanzarote. She triggered the button on board to indicate that all is well.

Broken mast for David Genest: Late this morning the skipper of Bingo made contact with a passing cargo ship and sent the following information about his intentions to the Race Director. David is well, he does not intend to ask for assistance and is headed to Lanzarote at 4-5 knots, which suggests that part of the mast is still in place.

Yannick Le Clech dismasted: The disappointment must be tough for Yannick who had fought hard to be on the starting line for the Mini Transat. Victim of a dismasted off Porto, Yannick wanted to recover his boat himself, refusing to ask for outside assistance and instead building a jury rig. His adventure ended prematurely, but he has shown all the qualities of an outstanding seaman.

The story of Ian Lipinski on the very rough conditions of the beguining of the race and that lead to his cancelation:Ian Lipinski was dismasted on the first night of the Mini Transat. After activating his emergency beacon, he was recovered by the Mazouri, a cargo bound for Sfax, Tunisia, via Gibraltar. Ian is doing well and is safely on board but had to abandon his boat Pas de Futur sans Numérique, No. 539. Two days after the incident, here is his story:

It all over for 539, which I have had to abandon... I had three reefs in the main and a reefed solent overnight. The sea was rough but nothing more. I had a first warning last night hurtling down a steeper than usual wave. Result, I broached violently. All the gear was swept down the back, I found myself against the crash box! The boat dropped vertically and fell to the side. I release the tiller and drop into the water to leeward against the lifelines ... I'm OK again.

But late that night, after a ten-minute nap, I went to open the door to go outside, I felt the boat take off on a very fast surf. I just had time to stand firmly at the opening of the door, a second no more, when the boat was on its roof. The water instantly flooded the entire interior. I had perhaps 50 centimeters of air space left. Everything inside is floating and slopping around. It is all black ... and the boat is upside down, like an inverted umbrella! I did not really panick, but told myself very quickly that the situation was not terrible. No VHF, no reasonable opportunity to escape, no power inside the boat ... and still its not coming upright. I think that the water is cold and I will not be able to last in it very long. I soon realise that I cannot get out of this on my own and in five minutes I've decided to activate the EPIRB. I need a little time to find it because after this rodeo ride and in the dark I've lost my bearings a bit in the boat! Then I put on the TPS suit and that warms me up. I think I have been upside down for about 45 minutes to an hour.

Finally, the boat rights itself. I can get to the portable VHF in the safety box and manage to call "Cocoche" (Eric Cochet), 832. I hear that he re transmits my status to the escort boat, which offers to turn around and sail upwind to come to my aid. I say its not realistic and asked him to continue his journey because he can do nothing for me. I then trigger the the race tracker into distress mode. I set off a flare and send out a mayday on channel 16. It's still dark and I do not feel able to go out on the deck to release the rig, because I do not feel that assured on the boat in the TPS. The rig hull hits a bit but its OK more or less. The sun rises and I see a cargo ship passing because I'm not far from the axis of the DST. I set off a new flare ... No reaction from the cargo boat.

I can not seem to reach anyone on the portable VHF. I am looking for my passport stored in a workbook with a little money. I find it and slip it into my dry suit along with Panda, my soft toy I had taken on board for the first time! Coco, my second mascot, can not be found, but I keep myself busy looking for him... I try to empty the boat using a bucket. It's a mess and although I manage to lower the level a little, it quickly comes back in. I don't really feel in danger and I know that help is now triggered. Anyway, I don't feel I can go on on my own. The boat is destroyed and full of water, the electronics are all out, the steering broken ...

Then a ship arrives. I help them to locate me with a flare. He begins his maneuver but he's a little slow. His transom is towards me. I think I'll pass under the stern, which rises and falls with the waves 4 meters. Finally a huge crash at it comes down on poor 539, but thankfully I'm not crushed. The hull of Kalonig slides to leeward of the cargo ship and the crew throw me down mooring ropes which I secure on the winches. I'll have to climb the rope ladder that the crew lower against the hull of the ship. It goes up; it goes down: you have find the precise moment to jump on the rope at the top of the wave. Please do not fall into the water. At the third attempt I managed to climb the rope ladder and 5 seconds later I'm on the deck of the ship. Time to watch my mini drift away in the wake ...

The captain is wonderful and very caring with me. I have a deluxe cabin and I'll pass the Strait of Gibraltar for the first time in my life! I haven't yet had much time to think, I slept and ate. I will get my revenge next time. I do not really think I made a mistake, other than to have not taken shelter in the lee of the coast ... But then, I would not have been racing ...

We are off to Sfax, Tunisia. We should arrive Tuesday.

...........

692 Dismasted: Mini 6.50 No. 692 (Diaoulic 692) was dismasted on Thursday afternoon. The skipper Yannick Clech did not request assistance and assured the Race Director that all was well on board. He is currently heading to Lisbon under jury rig and try to go again.
*


----------



## EricKLYC

When I last visited the Structures yard last winter I was suprised to see they were working on a successor for their Pogo 40 S2 class 40. But Christian Bouroullec was convinced this 2010 design was already becoming outdated so they asked Pascal Conq (Finot-Conq) to design the S3.
The Transat Jacques Fabre seems to confirm his feeling: the first Pogo S2 Groupe Picoty will only be able to battle for the 4th place if nothing bad happens to the leading trio.
And although the Pogo S2 Campagne de France is now 2nd in the Class 40 ranking, this will probably change when the results of this Transat are taken into account.

So things are moving fast in the Class 40 scene, as does the brand new Pogo 40 S3:

Pogo 40S3-go to Lorient on Vimeo

I don't think they will be making a cruising version of that one .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 40 s3*



EricKLYC said:


> When I last visited the Structures yard last winter I was suprised to see they were working on a successor for their Pogo 40 S2 class 40. But Christian Bouroullec was convinced this 2010 design was already becoming outdated so they asked Pascal Conq (Finot-Conq) to design the S3.
> The Transat Jacques Fabre seems to confirm his feeling: the first Pogo S2 Groupe Picoty will only be able to battle for the 4th place if nothing bad happens to the leading trio.
> And although the Pogo S2 Campagne de France is now 2nd in the Class 40 ranking, this will probably change when the results of this Transat are taken into account.
> 
> So things are moving fast in the Class 40 scene, as does the brand new Pogo 40 S3:
> 
> Pogo 40S3-go to Lorient on Vimeo
> 
> I don't think they will be making a cruising version of that one .
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Yes Eric, that is how fast things go when racing is made at top level with racers and designers working hard to improve performance. We didn't yet come as far as in top car racing where on the top category (F1) the last year's car is an old car and without any chances to win but things come in that direction and this is good because it only means that advancements in design are coming faster.

Of course I am not talking about amateur or semi-amateur sail racing but about top professional racing.

Even so at the point we are, 3 years is already a considerable period of time in what regards hull development at the present state of the art and the same happens with the IMOCA boats (Open 60) where 2007 boats are considered old boats. From the four that were disputing the leadership of this year Transat all where 2010/2011 boats with exception of Marc's boat that sails one from 2007 that is still competitive, but not as much as the top ones. Maybe its titanium keel helps to make that difference smaller helped by Marc's talent. Anyway on the next vendee all these would be "old boats" without any chance of winning against the future new boats that will be built soon.

Regarding the Pogo S2 you are right, the boat is not competitive at top level anymore and it is not by the best place to be 4th on this transat but from the distance the 4th is from the first: more than 280nm is a huge difference.

It is a pity they had not the boat ready and tested for this transat but certainly we will have several on the Route du Rhum that is even a bigger classic than this one.

We have talked already about the Pogo s3 that is a very beautiful boat and that I bet it will be faster than the S2. Pogo needed it to be at the head of the transats again.










Pogo 40S3-go to Lorient from Pogostructures on Vimeo.

For the cruising Pogo, your boat, the 12.50, I don't think the difference in performance between the two hulls would be meaningful. I guess that from now on the cruising version will be built on the older version of the racing boat hull but, who knows, the owner of Pogo shipyards is a perfectionists and may decide that fast cruisers deserve the same kind of development racers want in their boats in what regards performance

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Funny ways of sailing*

On a boat show I saw this baby and for some time I thought of having it as a dingy. Of course it is impracticable at least for me. If you saw how my dingy goes loaded when I go to the supermarket for provisions you would understand why but even so.... it is just such a cute little boat and very well made too: inflatable but incredibly rigid...expensive too.

Well, maybe for someone that doesn't go to the supermarket with a dinghy











Some more funny ways of sailing that actually work:


----------



## hannah2

*Re: The ARC has started*



PCP said:


> But it seems they are going on all directions
> 
> 
> 
> Unsupported Browser


It's hard to believe they left with a cut off low just to the NW with winds 25 to 39 on the nose by Tuesday then the trades go way from 22N to 10N all most all the way across the Atlantic till next week, no wind at all.
We are staying in the Canaries till we can enjoy the sail. Did you notice that 3 of the boats broke away going NW. I guess they will be heading over the top of the low and down the backside into the Carib. We have met a lot of the ARC folks and many of them are not prepared for the crossing, I must say we worry about them. I guess when the sponsors have all those party room rentals and caterers awaiting in the Carib they just send them anyway.

Today we sailed from Marina Rubicon to Marina Calero about 20 miles. It was our first real sail to weather in about 30 knots out of the NE and 1 to 2 meter seas. The new boat sailed really well as we stayed totally dry and the Boreal charged thru the seas just wonderfully at 8 knots with 2 reefs in the main and after awhile one reef in the genoa. Later in the day we did our first heave to to see if she could. Seems like she does just fine but I think she may do even better with the main down. Will give it a try soon, down below very quiet and peaceful better than our old Mason 44 was I think.

Paulo, I think she is a dry boat going to weather. For now until the weather is right and we cross we will continue to work on the boat and drink good white Canary wine.


----------



## PCP

*Re: The ARC has started*



hannah2 said:


> It's hard to believe they left with a cut off low just to the NW with winds 25 to 39 on the nose by Tuesday then the trades go way from 22N to 10N all most all the way across the Atlantic till next week, no wind at all.
> We are staying in the Canaries till we can enjoy the sail. Did you notice that 3 of the boats broke away going NW. I guess they will be heading over the top of the low and down the backside into the Carib. ...


I had a look at the weather and it seems to me that those that went North will have wind all the way but they have to go almost to the latitude of Madeira to get wind on the right direction.

It seems to me that you should have leaved from Porto santo instead of the Canarias.

I had a look and it seems to me that most that are going North are not going North enough (or fast enough) and will get 25k of wind on the nose or no wind at all, at least for 36 hours.

Most of the boats are going on the "normal" shorter route....and in 24 hours will stay without any wind. I really don't understand what they are doing and why so much have chosen that option instead of the less direct route by the North, but one with constant wind.

So help me on this: I am seeing it wrong? You have a lot more experience and know a lot more about this. Give me your opinion.

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

Regards

Paulo


----------



## GeorgeB

Help me out. Is it a requirement of the ARC to leave Gran Canaria to starboad? When we did the crossing (after the ARC) in 2011, we passed between Gran Canaria and Tenerife. We too, had a low pass in front, then to the north of us. The weather router in Las Palmas was telling everybody to go south to the Cape Verdis to avoid the weather. We stayed our course as it didn't seem to be any worse than what we get in the northern Pacific. We started out beating then a beam reach which was a little uncomfortable in a 47' Leopard. Nearing the Carib, we caught another low which really "killed" the trades and wound up motoring a day or two in order to maintain our schedule (I promised MrsB and the family that I'd be home for Christmas).


----------



## PCP

GeorgeB said:


> Help me out. Is it a requirement of the ARC to leave Gran Canaria to starboad? When we did the crossing (after the ARC) in 2011, we passed between Gran Canaria and Tenerife. We too, had a low pass in front, then to the north of us. The weather router in Las Palmas was telling everybody to go south to the Cape Verdis to avoid the weather. We stayed our course as it didn't seem to be any worse than what we get in the northern Pacific. We started out beating then a beam reach which was a little uncomfortable in a 47' Leopard. Nearing the Carib, we caught another low which really "killed" the trades and wound up motoring a day or two in order to maintain our schedule (I promised MrsB and the family that I'd be home for Christmas).


I don't know. Remember that there is a big racing class division and maybe that is one of the rules. If that was not mandatory it does not make any sense, for the ones heading North, to have circled the island.

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster

> The Rally will start from Las Palmas de Gran Canaria on Sunday 25 November 2012 at 1300, to the south of the entrance to Las Palmas harbour. Detailed starting instructions will be given at the skippers' briefing on the day before the start. From the start, *the course leaves Gran Canaria to starboard and Saint Lucia to port, *to the finish in Rodney Bay, Saint Lucia.


From the ARC site's information package.

http://www.worldcruising.com/Office/Content/event_docs_ARC/ARC 2012 Regulations Pack_ENG.pdf


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## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

And yes!!!!....Pella (2th in 40class) is coming over Rogues, the leader. in about 300nm recovered 20nm. Rogues is at 920nm from the finish and Pella is at 86nm so at this rhythm Pella is not going to make it (he will be at about 30nm on the finish) and that is just a shame taking into consideration the 190nm that he have lost when he had to stop in Spain.

Cartographie Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 | Suivez la course en direct !

This has been a very unusual transat and it seems the trade winds are not what they used to be. The wind is far more North than what is usual and the leaders are again sailing in light wind. On this conditions Pedote (2nd) is not able to close on Benoit Marie (1st) that maintains a lead of about 14nm.

Deslene, long time 2th chasing Pedote, that lost almost 200nm with that forced pit stop in Canarias is recovering and is at 117nm from the leader. Great race

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


----------



## PCP

*Some great sailing videos*











and completely out of topic and just because it is a nice movie: Nazaré, 20Nm North of my home and the marina where where I used to have the boat turned into the Mecca of the extreme surfers that go there in search of 100ft waves. Nice town too.


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## hannah2

Winds here in Canaries have gone ESE at 25 kts over the last few hours so things are changing. Those boats headed NW are the big guys with full racing crew and can handle going NW up to 34 N to get above low. But the rest are going to have 3 days of wind on the nose, most of it seems to be around 20Kts but there are areas a couple of days out where it will go higher. Even here they said 15 out of SW but it is much stronger for now. Like Paulo says, once the majority of boats(the cruisers) get down to 24N they run out of wind. Only passage weather shows 5 to ten Kts at 20N and below. The FNMOC(US Navy weather gribs show nothing. We have good luck with their extended forecasts about 75% right from 5 days out, much better for 96 out and shorter.

I do not like the idea of the ARC because it often gives inexperienced sailors a feeling of security, Those who have not learned how to read a 500 millibar map or even a surface map and just depend on gribs always listen to these guys that run the ARC and become dependent on what they are told. But the ARC owners have a schedule not the same as good experienced sailors have. We sit here with many who have crossed many oceans and we all shake our heads. We sail to enjoy the passage knowing we can run into bad weather but never leaving port into bad weather. All of us don't like to talk much about the ARC and the problems that all of these group sailing for money can run into. I wish there was a way to let those who are wanting their great adventure to come true that going in large groups like the ARC can have serious problems. I wish them the best and that all those sailors and their family's be safe. But here we have French, English, Americans and others heading to many destinations. Some to the S. Pacific for the 2nd and 3rd time and other doing the Atlantic circle for the 4th time, all of us waiting, still working on the boats even though they are ready. Cruisers all need to know that sooner or later you have to go but picking the best time and not on a schedule is the right thing to do. How many times do we hear about boats on a tight schedule to meet up with relatives or friends being lost at sea because they left at the wrong weather window just to make others happy.

Cheers


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> Winds here in Canaries have gone ESE at 25 kts over the last few hours so things are changing. Those boats headed NW are the big guys with full racing crew and can handle going NW up to 34 N to get above low. ....


Not only racing boats went North. Racing boats are going North fast, cruising boats more slowly, but not many, that is true. There is a transat going one and you can use the weather information they provide on line with the cartography:

Cartographie Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 | Suivez la course en direct !

according to this information they will not get more than 24K on the beam and not for long. Off course it can easily gust 30k but on the open Atlantic that should not be a problem even for a cruising crew assuming the boat is not very small.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*XP 38 new nicer interior:*

Finally!!!! It took them time to react but in the end they made it good.

The XP38 is a fantastic performance sailing boat, beautiful and with a great hull:





But it was also a bit of disappointment to me in what regards cruising potential and I had said why on a previous post: Thy offered only a three cabin version and contrary to other 38fters with three cabins instead of putting the head on the front of the boat after the bulkhead, near the front cabin, had put it front of the galley, making the saloon smaller and the overall space disagreeable.



Not much space on a 38ft boat and this was a very poor solution making the Xp38 a in what regards living space much worse than the Salona 38 or the Dheler 38. A pity since the boat offered a great galley and a huge sailing potential.





They got it right now, even if at the cost of a cabin, offering a two cabin version. Not a problem anyway because unless a 38ft is used for weekend cruising any extensive cruising would make one of the cabins a storage space.



The alteration seems not much in a 2D view but the perception in what regards space completely different. Now the boat has a very nice interior. They took the opportunity to make also the settees more comfortable.



For the ones that need it they also offer now a bathing platform on the transom, not as big as the one on the Dehler 38 but one that (contrary to what happens on the Dehler) doesn't make the Transom visually too heavy.





.........

This *movie* says all about the sailing potential:

XP-38: Schnörkellos schnell segeln - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

....


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Some great sailing videos*

Paulo,

I almost posted you that video when I learned you had your boat in Nazare. That same day, Carlos Burle pulled pro surfer Maya Gabeira out of the water, almost drowned. Put her in an ambulance, and then he went back in hunting for the biggest wave. Sorry, but there is a line between professionalism and stupidity. I don't know what impresses me most; the balls it takes and excitement of achievement OR the sheer stupidity and lack of respect to nature, even in the presence of events like almost loosing a dear life. On the other hand. what a beautiful, charming place!


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre*

Thanks Hmoll.
......

On the 40 class Pella continues to win over the 1st. It is now at 79nm of Rogues with 765nm to go. Not possible to catch him but a nice recover anyway. Just proving that they and their boat are the fastest on this race and that without that forced stop they would have won.

But regarding this race I would like to call your attention for the incredible race of the two last. Yes that it seems odd being them in last place and all but consider this:

The First group to arrive were racing in 2010/2011 boats (with exception of Marc that had a 2007 boat), the second group, formed by Louis Burton, Bertrand the Broc and Zbigniew Gutkowski have all 2006/2007 boats and they have a crew, I mean another racer teaming with them.

Alessandro di Benedeto and Tanguy Lamotte are racing in really antiques, 1998 boats that still have fixed keels while all the others have canting keels and that is not all:

The crew mate of Tanguy is François Damiens. The man is a famous Belgian comedian. No experience in racing at high level. I guess that has helped to get the needed budget.

The one that races with Alessandro is Alberto Monaco. He is also not a racer, never raced at high level, it is a boat builder specialized in racing boats. If you look the videos posted by Alessandro you could see that they are always repairing something. I guess Alexandro knew that he needed an expert to keep that old boat in one piece.

So, they are not only racing in old boats without canting keel as they are racing practically alone and even so they are at only at 135nm from the last boat of the second group in the race, the ones with 2007 boats. That is an AMAZING feat. Their boats are about 15% slower and they should be at many hundreds of miles, not at a bit more than a hundred miles.

The second amazing thing that we can notice is that Alexandro is as fast as Tanguy (they are very close in a particular race). There is a big difference between the two in what regards racing experience. Tanguy (that is also a NA) is a winner of several top races since 2001. Alexandro was an adventurer with incredible exploits like the crossing of the Atlantic and the Pacific in a beach cat a solo non stop circumnavigation in a mini racer and the only serious race at top level was the last Vendee. On that one Tanguy was faster.

Well, not anymore he is sailing at the same level. These two deserve a fast boat, they have already proved they are better sailors that some that have much better and faster boats. I hope they will get them.


----------



## PCP

*Great sailing videos (clipper race)*

The Clipper race is not a top race. Most of the sailors are relatively inexperienced sailors that pay for the fun of racing in a fast boat. They are surrounded by a skeleton crew and a skipper that warrants safety but the images are spectacular:


----------



## robelz

Tales II recovered the next 13nm and is only 66nm behind. mare also speeds up and has 89nm left to the leader. GDFS has 652nm left to the finish...

The Scow is at full throttle, too and now 13nm ahead. Having chat to an experienced former Mini sailor I found out that Marie is a way better sailor than Pedote. Keep that in mind when referring to the Scow's performance...


----------



## robelz

Wild Oats XI and DSS Collaboration | Dynamic Stability SystemsDynamic Stability Systems

They equipped Wild Oats XI with DSS...


----------



## robelz

615nm für GDFS and Tales II 61,6nm behind. If it continues this way they'll meet at the finish line


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> Tales II recovered the next 13nm and is only 66nm behind. mare also speeds up and has 89nm left to the leader. GDFS has 652nm left to the finish...


And Pella keeps recovering miles. Now at 616 from the finish he is at 61nm. I still believe they will not be able to make it but I would love to be wrong about this.



robelz said:


> The Scow is at full throttle, too and now 13nm ahead. Having chat to an experienced former Mini sailor I found out that Marie is a way better sailor than Pedote. Keep that in mind when referring to the Scow's performance...


I don't know were your friend got that information but it does not seem true. Benoit Marie never won a mini race and the best result ever was 4th on a minor race.

Pedote races for more time and in 2009 made 4th on the transat with a series boat in 2010 raced with Figaro II and has won several races with the bath tube boat, most of them on races where the boat has not a big advantage as in a transat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Wild Oats with Dynamic Stability System*



robelz said:


> Wild Oats XI and DSS Collaboration | Dynamic Stability SystemsDynamic Stability Systems
> 
> They equipped Wild Oats XI with DSS...


That is a *MAJOR* new!!!!!!

First big racing boat to be equipped with the system. I always thought that the DSS would work better in bigger sailboats and specially in narrow boats. I am very curious about the results.










Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Class40 in TJV is amazing. While the Mach40s head more southerly (GDFS 180°, mare 190°) the Botin designed Tales II is still on the shortest way. The distance between GDFS and the both followers is melting away (47nm to Tales, 67nm to mare). 592nm to go! What a finish!


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Class40 in TJV is amazing. While the Mach40s head more southerly (GDFS 180°, mare 190°) the Botin designed Tales II is still on the shortest way. The distance between GDFS and the both followers is melting away (47nm to Tales, 67nm to mare). 592nm to go! What a finish!


If an all Spanish team, including the boat designer owns the race it would the awesome and absolutely incredible due to the absolute French domination on this class. Go Pella Go!!!!!

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*European boat of the year 2014*

Don't give up with the talk (German), that's a big movie and the boats on contest this year are just beautiful. I believe I had already posted about all of them here:

*Movie:*

Europas Yacht des Jahres 2014 - Teil 1 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

and they are paid to sail all those beauties


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

Class40 : My God, I start to believe that is possible, I mean that Pella (2nd) can catch Rogues (1st). What a race, incredible sailing by the Spanish: 531nm to go and 46nm to the leader. They have lost one mile on the last hours but they are again faster and they are in a better position than the leader for getting more wind at a better angle. This night will be decisive for them. I can imagine the pressure on both boats. Nobody is going to sleep today, all tryng to get that extra decimal of a knot

Cartographie Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 | Suivez la course en direct !

Open60 : That particular race between Alexandro and Tanguy is red hot. They have changed positions on the race many times. Just go with the race back (the cursor on the bottom) and see them changing positions all the time.

Yesterday Tanguy was leading, today Alessandro managed to catch him and won 4K. With 212nm to the finish anything can happen but one thing is sure: they will arrive very close. It seems to me Tanguy has a slightly better wind angle.

A great race for both.

Here Tanguy shows Alessandro's boat that is behind and he is quite surprised and concerned for him to be so close. In fact Alessandro had recovered 11nm on the last 12 hours or so.





Jour 19 - Initiatives Cœur (IMOCA) - Transat... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

and here you can see the big smile of Alessandro when he shows to you Tanguy's boat that he is going to overtake.

Incredible, after all this tine they are sailing a match race in plain view 





Jour19 -Team Plastique (IMOCA) - Transat... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

......

on the mini transat:

Pedote with good pressure is leaving Benoit Marie behind and the trade winds will continue to blow for him and the leading group but all the others will have soon to face a strong head wind (16K) for a considerable time. What happened to the trade winds? This year they are blowing much more to the North making this a very unusual race, not to mention the ARC that have started recently.

......

Steve is waiting for the right time to cross the pond but given the weather pattern on the last 15 days, I don't know if he would get better than this. Weird year


----------



## robelz

37nm for Tales II in the last ranking... Can't wait to wake up tomorrow!


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre*



robelz said:


> 37nm for Tales II in the last ranking... Can't wait to wake up tomorrow!


Yes, a drag not having actualization through the night

And that is not only that fight that is very interesting: On the Open60 Tanguy won a 1 nm over Alessandro and it is now at 3nm with 166nm to go. These two are going to pass the finish line near enough to see each other.

http://tracking.transat-jacques-vabre.com/fr/

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Flying Phantom One Design*

I had already posted about this very nice small foiled cat, nice and fast. New movie and what a movie


----------



## PCP

*Camas and Sophie de Turckheim won at La Rochelle*

Well Cammas is a kid: Now he is playing with dinghies, I mean small cats.

After having won the in C class (fixed wing cats) world championship, now he wins on Nacra 17, teaming with Sophie de Turckheim. She was excluded from the French Olympic team and now she has her revenge....winning at top level.

About Cammas, well if it has a sail...he can win If this is not the most polivalent sailor ever, please tell me who his?


----------



## robelz

*Re: Transat Jaques Vabre*



PCP said:


> Yes, a drag not having actualization through the night
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


They don't tell on their page but in the tracker they have new positions at 11pm, 2am and 5am so they keep the three hours rhythm for the night, too... 41nm now and GDFS speeding with more than 14kn...


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

Bad luck for Pella: All that went for the shore searching for wind had bad results and Pella was no exception. During the night he lost 2.5nm that he recovered again and is now at 34nm from the 1st (Rogues) with 367nm to go.

I hope to be mistaken but its position regarding wind direction seems worse to me than the one from Rogues, anyway they have a patch with very unstable and weak winds ahead that can decide everything.

Rogues had already showed in the doldrums that is a master in this kind of strategic sailing. Let's see if he confirms those qualities.

Regarding that particular race between Alexandro and Tanguy overtook Alexandro (again) and he has now an advantage of 4.6nm with 47nm for the finish. The boats are very close and that will probably enough for Tanguy to win over Alexandro.

Alexandro is not smiling for the first time on the videos and that shows how hard the situation is for him: he was leading over Tanguy and then they felt the boat strange and slower, they went inside and found 1 ton of water sloshing around. One of the ballast tanks had a bad leak and the water come out to the bilges. They have been repairing the boat since the start but this problem comes really in a bad time on the last sprint to the finish....

Instead of taking care of the sails for extracting that extra decimal knot, they are busy taking the water out of the boat. Really hard, they did not deserve that





Jour 21 - Team Plastique (IMOCA) - Transat... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

Cartographie Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 | Suivez la course en direct !

On the mini race Pedote continues to increase the distance over Benoit Marie that is now at 27nm while the third (Remy) is already at 115nm. Deslene in 5th is slowly closing on the 4th (Garcia) and his at only 9nm. These two are about 150nm from the leader while the 6th is already at 469nm.

On the series Aymeric continues to make an incredible race and if he was racing with the protos he would be 5th. He has already an advantage of 138nm over Justine that on that overall race would be 6th and has an advantage of about 64nm over koster that on that overall classification would be 7th.

The two of them are making a great race and it seems we have on Justine another fast solo sailing woman that with some luck will join at top level the few women that race on equal terms with men.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


----------



## PCP

*Rm 890*

First photo of the new boat that will be presented at the Paris boat show.

The boat looks incredibly beautiful for a 30ft. It is very hard to design a small boat with a great interior space and standing height looking that good. Congratulations to Marc Lombard for a great design.


----------



## robelz

Well, seems the race is over. Tales II is in light winds and had to gybe while GDFS is with 22kn of wind in full speed in a direct line to the finish. Even mare might overtake Tales II...

@ Paulo: Definately one of the sexiest 30s on the market, but will it be fast?


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Rm 890*



PCP said:


> First photo of the new boat that will be presented at the Paris boat show.
> 
> The boat looks incredibly beautiful for a 30ft. It is very hard to design a small boat with a great interior space and standing height looking that good. Congratulations to Marc Lombard for a great design.


Okay. Game over. I'm sold. Where do I go to place my order? 

Two questions, however: Will the RM890 be available with a swing keel? And why only a single rudder? Would prefer two rudders over one. Otherwise, maximum chapeau on this gorgeous 30-footer. My choice is becoming very easy.


----------



## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> Well, seems the race is over. Tales II is in light winds and had to gybe while GDFS is with 22kn of wind in full speed in a direct line to the finish. Even mare might overtake Tales II...
> 
> @ Paulo: Definately one of the sexiest 30s on the market, but will it be fast?


Given the results of the last Fastnet Race, my guess would be that it will be very fast. Or it will at least sail to its rating. It's an RM.


----------



## robelz

Fastnet? I do not find any RM in the results....


----------



## robelz

"Part of the reason for GDF SUEZ losing miles to the two duos which are chasing long time leaders Sébastien Rogues and Fabien Delahaye is revealed this afternoon. The French pair which have lead since the restart from Roscoff tore two of their three spinnakers in the Doldrums. And despite their repair attempts nothing has worked. GDF SUEZ’s pair can see the damage their lack of kites is doing and are clinging on to their lead. At 1100hrs this morning local time (1300hrs UTC) they were 47 miles ahead of the Spanish duo Tales Santander 2014 (Alex Pella and Pablo Santurde) and 54 miles ahead of Mare (Jorg Riechers and Pierre Brasseur). A tense finale is on the cards."


----------



## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> Fastnet? I do not find any RM in the results....


Sorry, my bad. Confused RM with JPK. 

Still, the RM does look quick, even with twin keels, which I don't think will perform as well as a strut-bulb or swing keel. In a single-keel configuration I'm betting it will be a quick boat. Bow and aft quarter sections look very aggressive.


----------



## PCP

*Rm 890*



robelz said:


> Paulo: Definately one of the sexiest 30s on the market, but will it be fast?


Yes it will be fast as a performance cruiser but not fast as a boat more intended for racing like the A31 or the JPK 960 or even the Pogo 30. This boat was thought with fast cruising and voyage on mind even if it would be no slush racing even among other performance cruisers.



MrPelicano said:


> ....
> Two questions, however: Will the RM890 be available with a swing keel? And why only a single rudder? Would prefer two rudders over one. Otherwise, maximum chapeau on this gorgeous 30-footer. My choice is becoming very easy.


No, not a swing keel on the RM. They offer two configurations: Twin keel with 1,55m, deep mono keel 1,90 m. On the twin keel they have a single rudder configuration on the mono keel two rudders.

Probably they have a single rudder on the twin keel mostly as an extra support point when the boat is beached (the rudder has a flat surface on the bottom).

The performance version is obviously the one with mono keel.

Pelicano If you want a boat to do more racing, namely short crew or solo racing, I am quite sure that RM can prepare a special boat for you, with a lighter interior, a bigger draft and a main with a rounded top (how do you call that?) and more sail area. Of course it will be more expensive but maybe they are interested depending on the races you will make.

Once they had prepared a RM 1350 mostly for racing and I remember that on the first race (Route du Rhum - transat) the RM was racing among the 40class boats. Of course this is a very special boat with a very light interior and a different keel.







Destination Calais repart en campagne

RM 1350 "Destination Calais" - Blog RM Yachts | Chantier Fora Marine

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> Well, seems the race is over. Tales II is in light winds and had to gybe while GDFS is with 22kn of wind in full speed in a direct line to the finish. Even mare might overtake Tales II...
> ...


Hum, I think Pella is going to overtake Riecher again and it will win a lot over Rogues on the light winds but it will not be enough to catch him, of course. He is in a much better position in relation to the wind regarding Riechers.

Regarding that particular race on Open60 between Tanguy and Benedetto I am really sorry for Benedetto. Even with that big problem with the boat with a lot of water inside he managed to recover over Tanguy and finished at 9 seconds. I said that those two would finish at eyesight view, but 9s after 21 days is pretty unbelievable

On the mini transat Benoit Marie has maintained the distance over Pedote: about 28nm.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> Hum, I think Pella is going to overtake Riecher again and it will win a lot over Rogues on the light winds but it will not be enough to catch him, of course. He is in a much better position in relation to the wind regarding Riechers.
> 
> Regarding that particular race on Open60 between Tanguy and Benedetto I am really sorry for Benedetto. Even with that big problem with the boat with a lot of water inside he managed to recover over Tanguy and finished at 9 seconds. I said that those two would finish at eyesight view, but 9s after 21 days is pretty unbelievable
> 
> On the mini transat Benoit Marie has maintained the distance over Pedote: about 28nm.


I don't know if there's enough runway left but Delesne is only 49nm from a possible podium finish, if he can catch Fermin and Garcia. Garcia is truly sailing well, in a boat that is quite old - 1999 Lombard design - compared to his competition. Of course, he's an experienced racer, having sailed with Jean le Cam in the Barcelona World Race, until they were dismasted. Should he make it on the podium he can be very proud.

No way anyone will catch Pedote and Marie, at this point. Only question will be whether Pedote can hold or extend his slender lead. As much as some of us have raved about the scow and its advantages, Marie is showing that there is plenty of life in the more conventional designs. This one is going down to the wire, I predict. Definitely a Transat for the ages.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



MrPelicano said:


> I don't know if there's enough runway left but Delesne is only 49nm from a possible podium finish, if he can catch Fermin and Garcia. Garcia is truly sailing well, in a boat that is quite old - 1999 Lombard design - compared to his competition. Of course, he's an experienced racer, having sailed with Jean le Cam in the Barcelona World Race, until they were dismasted. Should he make it on the podium he can be very proud.
> 
> No way anyone will catch Pedote and Marie, at this point. Only question will be whether Pedote can hold or extend his slender lead. As much as some of us have raved about the scow and its advantages, Marie is showing that there is plenty of life in the more conventional designs. This one is going down to the wire, I predict. Definitely a Transat for the ages.


Yes I agree, the race will be decided between Pedote and Benoit Marie. For being fast is not enough to have the faster boat and be a great sailor it is also needed to have sails in good condition. That can also decide the race between those two.

I agree also that Garcia is making an incredible race. He is older and is a cardiologist, not a professional sailor. Made this transat 10 years ago and has been racing a lot less than the others, kind of occasionally, since some of them are professionals. His race in a 14 year's old boat is absolutely sensational and the fact that a 14 year old boat can still be competitive says a lot about his NA, Marc Lombard.
He is 4th and he is closing on the 3th, Remi Fermin that races in a 2009 design, built and designed by him. Deslene, that is racing in a 2009 Sam Manuard design, is not closing on Garcia but maintains the distance and that means he is also closing on Fermin.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

Benoit Marie is racing also on an older design, a 2007 Finot while Pedote races in the newer boat, a 2010 David Raison design.

Regarding the Class40 on the Jaques Vabre Transat it seems I was right: The Spanish team is already ahead of the Franco-German team and Pella is closing fast on the leader. The difference of speed to the leader in the last 2 hours is 2k superior and that value is going to increase. It seems that it is their time to be lucky with the weather, at least if what the weather prevision show is true. I don't believe they can win but they are going to recover many miles.

Cartographie Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 | Suivez la course en direct !

and finally we have images of Tanguy and Alessandro arriving separated by 9 seconds:





Jour 22 - Arrivée Initiatives Coeur (IMOCA... _por TransatJacquesVabre_





Jour 22 - arrivée de TEAM PLASTIQUE (IMOCA... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*RC44 on the Canary Islands*

This is the race that Steve (hannah2) was talking about. He saw the boats on the Canary islands. Some great images of the races:


----------



## PCP

*Going to a boat show*



This beauty was presented not long ago on a boat show. It is a boat that will please the more conservative: Relatively narrow, with a proper fin, not one of those skinny keels with a torpedo and a kind of classic beauty. In a word, not the typical modern boat.

Let's see if any of you can find out what boat is this one


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Going to a boat show*



PCP said:


> This beauty was presented not long ago on a boat show. It is a boat that will please the more conservative: Relatively narrow, with a proper fin, not one of those skinny keels with a torpedo and a kind of classic beauty. In a word, not the typical modern boat.
> 
> Let's see if any of you can find out what boat is this one


That's a nice one, Paulo!
It's Pen Duick II, the very first purpose built racing yacht for the English Transat in 1964, that made the late Éric Tabarly a living legend.

By the way, he won this solo race once again in 1976, this time not in a purpose built yacht but with Pen Duick VI, designed to race fully crewed in the Withbread .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## Sapwraia

*Re: Going to a boat show*



EricKLYC said:


> That's a nice one, Paulo!
> It's Pen Duick II, the very first purpose built racing yacht for the English Transat in 1964, that made the late Eric Tabarly a living legend.


A beautiful hull that was ahead of its time - yachts racing under the RORC and CCA rules didn't transition to separate keel & rudder until 1967 (IIRC)


----------



## robelz

Pedote is not only 40nm ahead, he will also have the better conditions in the next hours presumably...


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Going to a boat show*



Sapwraia said:


> A beautiful hull that was ahead of its time  - yachts racing under the RORC and CCA rules didn't transition to separate keel & rudder until 1967 (IIRC)


Absolutely!

Tabarly was and probably still is one of the most innovative sailors in the history or racing.

Apart from its specific design for the 1964 OSTAR, Pen Duick II also introduced some new practical ideas, such as the gimbaled chart table (with a Harley Davidson saddle as a seat ) and the Plexiglas dome he "borrowed" from an aircraft (Tabarly was in fact a French Navy pilot).

Pen Duick III was the first racing yacht designed with the aid of model tank testing and won almost everything there was to win in the RORC races, including both the Fastnet and Sydney-Hobart in 1967.

Pen Duick IV was the first big, aluminium racing multihull. Although Tabarly himself abandoned in the 1968 OSTAR because of lack of preparation (may '68 almost completely paralysed France for months), Alain Colas won in 1972 (and sadly disappeared with the boat, re-baptized Manureva, during the first Route du Rhum in 1978).

Pen Duick V was especially designed for the first 1969 Transpac, a downwind race. It can be considered as the precursor of modern open designs such as the IMOCA's: light, large beam aft, vertical transom, maximized waterline and water ballasted. Tabarly finished 11 days (!) before the second. In fact nobody expected such a fast crossing (no trackers then) so there was nobody in Tokyo to witness his finish :laugher.

Pen Duick VI was designed for the 1973-74 Whitbread RWR but abandoned the race after being dismasted twice. There was also a lot of fuzz about its depleted uranium keel, probably driven by jealous competitors not wanting Tabarly to win also this race. 
His victory in the exceptionally stormy 1976 OSTAR on board this 22 meter and 32 ton ketch designed for a crew of 12, is still considered one of the most extraordinary in sailing history, beating his former soul mate Alain Colas and the 72 meter monster Club Méditerrannée. 
Although nobody thought he could ever make it solo with Pen Duick VI, Tabarly made it clear from the start he wasn't there as a figurant, by hoisting his huge spinnaker solo  and thereby introducing the spinnaker sock.

Tabarly also firmly believed in the possibilities of flying multihulls on foils. The aluminium trimaran Paul Ricard was once again a precursor and although too heavy in comparison to its carbon and composite followers, it was the first to break the legendary transatlantic record of Charlie Barr and his 70 meter schooner Atlantic, already standing for 75 years (1905-1980). 
Afterwards Tabarly also inspired and coached the Hydroptère concept, the first sailing vessel to break the 50 knots barrier.

The sloop Côte d'Or didn't perform in the 1985-86 Whitbread, not only because of the somewhat selective penalties Tabarly was imposed for changing the keel. Although this was an all Belgian sponsorship, I must admit it is the only Tabarly-inspired design without any added value .

Apart from his numerous innovations, Tabarly was reputed for his extraordinary physical capacities and his shy modesty. He hated publicity and especially interviews, because he felt most questions posed by journalists were completely irrelevant .

What also should be remembered is the way he saved the 1898 William Fife III gaff cutter Pen Duick (the only one without a number), the Tabarly family yacht he recieved in an absolutely desperate condition from his father. Investing every single penny he could save for many years, he carefully and completely rebuilt this wonderful yacht himself. Thereby also pioneering in the use of GRP in the late fifties, a new technology in these days.

Also illustrating Tabarly's special character: he fell in love with a "longère" (traditional, long and narrow farm house in Brittany) which he bought, dismantled and rebuilt stone by stone on the borders of the Odet river, next to the mooring of his beloved Pen Duick.

Sadly it's on board of this very Pen Duick he lost his life in 1998, falling overboard during a reefing maneuver in the Irish Sea, on his way to Scotland for a Fife classic yachts regatta.

All existing Pen Duicks (the Original Fife Pen Duick, Pen Duick II, III, V and VI) are now fully operational again and visible at (if not sailing from) the Cité de la Voile Éric Tabarly in Lorient. A must when visiting Brittany, with also a very interesting permanent and temporary exhibitions.

And very well illustrating the legendary status Éric Tabarly acquired in France, and still has even 15 years after his tragical death.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Pen Duick Series and Eric Tabarly*



EricKLYC said:


> That's a nice one, Paulo!
> It's Pen Duick II, the very first purpose built racing yacht for the English Transat in 1964, that made the late Eric Tabarly a living legend.
> 
> By the way, he won this solo race once again in 1976, this time not in a purpose built yacht but with Pen Duick VI, designed to race fully crewed in the Withbread .
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


Right on the spot But it is still an amazing hull considering that its a 50 year old design. Still beautiful after all those years.

Needless to say that the boat won that Transat and marked, in what regards yacht offshore designs, the beginning of the change of the center of major development and influence from England to France.

Yes, one of the greatest sailors of all time and a man whose search of speed and better boats greatly contributed for sailboat development. As you probably know he is one of the fathers of the Hydroptere concept and the boat was developed according his original ideas. Also one of the first to race Transats on a trimaran, the Pen Duick IV.

But returning to the Pen Duick II, a design from Gilles Costantini based on his Tarann series.

Never heard about him? Well that was a NA that was too advanced for his time regarding his own good. His designs seemed too revolutionary and sailors just kind of think that the boats were dangerous or will come apart. Just look at one of those tarann series, the Izella, built in 1963:



No way, that boat was a modern keel that was added much later!!! Yes I know that it is hard to believe but that is the original keel. Look at a 1963 photo when the boat was lunched:



By the way, that boat is still sailing and never lost the keel

If you want to know more about Gilles Costantini look here:

Bateaux Costantini : Accueil

Back to Eric Tabarly and his Pen Duick series, the first one was his father boat, the one where he learned to sail, a beautiful 1898 William Fife III design. He maintained always that boat, the original Pen Duick while he was changing and improving his racing boats, all named also Pen Duick.



The Pen Duick III, a development pf Pen Duick II made in aluminium was designed by him. The boat had practically won everything in 1967, from the Sydney Hobart to the Fastnet race.

The Pen Duick IV was a truly revolution, a 20.50m aluminium racing trimaran designed in 1967 by André Allègre and the fastest boat of its time. On the 1968 Transat Tabarlay collides with a ship and has to retire. The trimaran was bought by Alain Colas that won with it the 1972 Singlehanded Transatlantic Race.

The Penn Duick V was built for the 1969 transpacific race (S. Francisco Tokio) that Tabarly won. It was an incredibly innovative boat, a very small one, with only 10,67 and was designed by Bigoin and Duvergie. It was am aluminium boat and was the first boat designed along the lines that today dominate Open boats. The boat was very beamy, with a big transom and had water tanks.

The Pen Duick VI, a 22m sailboat was built in 1973 and designed by André Mauric. Tabarly won with it the 1976 Plymouth to Newport Singlehanded Transatlantic Race.

Curiously, Tabarly racing for many years on these fast and innovative designs, many times solo, found its dead sailing with friends on his old family boat, the original Pen Duick. The boat still belongs to the Tabarly family.

Regarding Tabarly influence on the design of its boats and even if only the Pend Duick III was entirely designed by him, I have no doubt that he was the responsible for the main concept of his boats and therefore had a considerable influence on modern boat design.

All Pen Duick boats, with the exception of the trimaran that was lost with Colas, still sail and participate in classic events.






The name of Tabarly still ranks high among today's sail racers. His nephew, Erwan Tabarly won the 2013 Transat Bretagne - Martinique in Figaro II.

Edit: I did not saw Erick's post on Tabarly, so there is some repetition.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> Pedote is not only 40nm ahead, he will also have the better conditions in the next hours presumably...


Yes it seems that Pedote is going to win this one easily. Very good downwind conditions for him till the end with strong winds.

It seems that the interest of the race is now on the battle for 3th ad 4th even if it seems to me that for third Remy as an advantage regarding wind direction for the last part of the race. It will be interesting to see if Garcia in his old boat can resist to the attack of Delesne that is now closer.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

On the Jaques Vabre, on class40, Pella won over the night to the 1st (Rogues) but lost again when he too entered very weak winds.

Regarding this one I believe that the race is done and 1st will be Rogues, 2nd Pella and 3rd Riechers.

Cartographie Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 | Suivez la course en direct !

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Pen Duick Series and Eric Tabarly*



PCP said:


> ...
> But returning to the Pen Duick II, a design from Gilles Costantini based on his Tarann series.
> 
> Never heard about him? Well that was a NA that was too advanced for his time regarding his own good. His designs seemed too revolutionary and sailors just kind of think that the boats were dangerous or will come apart. Just look at one of those tarann series, the Izella, built in 1963:
> 
> 
> 
> No way, that boat was a modern keel that was added much later!!! Yes I know that it is hard to believe but that is the original keel. Look at a 1963 photo when the boat was lunched:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, that boat is still sailing and never lost the keel
> 
> If you want to know more about Gilles Costantini look here:
> 
> Bateaux Costantini : Accueil
> 
> ...
> 
> The name of Tabarly still ranks high among today's sail racers. His nephew, Erwan Tabarly won the 2013 Transat Bretagne - Martinique in Figaro II.


Your'e very right to stress the importance of the Constantini family in Tabarly's career, Paulo.

Without their Pen Duick II design and Tabarly's OSTAR victory in 1964, his sailing career would certainly have been different.

And without their unconditional support (_"no problem, you'll pay me whenever you can, Éric_") the original Fife Pen Duick would also have been lost.

And now there's the nephew Erwan .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Going to a boat show*



EricKLYC said:


> Pen Duick V was especially designed for the first 1969 Transpac, a downwind race. It can be considered as the precursor of modern open designs such as the IMOCA's: light, large beam aft, vertical transom, maximized waterline and water ballasted. Tabarly finished 11 days (!) before the second. In fact nobody expected such a fast crossing (no trackers then) so there was nobody in Tokyo to witness his finish :laugher.


By coincidence, my father was aboard our 30-footer in Aburatsubo Bay when Tabarly arrived unexpectedly in Japan aboard Pen Duick V, in 1969. He never tires of telling the story of rowing over to visit Tabarly and being surprised to find how much wine was aboard. Certainly it made a life-long impression on him.


----------



## PCP

*Wine torna viagem*



MrPelicano said:


> By coincidence, my father was aboard our 30-footer in Aburatsubo Bay when Tabarly arrived unexpectedly in Japan aboard Pen Duick V, in 1969. He never tires of telling the story of rowing over to visit Tabarly and being surprised to find how much wine was aboard. Certainly it made a life-long impression on him.


Of course, sailing without wine is boring

You know, on the XVI century Portuguese discovered not water ballast but wine ballast I am kidding but that is absolutely true. Ships that went for India carried Porto and Madeira wine as ballast all the way to India and back to Portugal (well, when they did not drink it on the way). They found out that the wine that returned was much better. It was called wine of the "torna", meaning the one that comes back.

Infovini | Your portal to Portuguese wine | History

One Portuguese wine company as returned to the tradition and send some of his wines (Moscatel) around the world on the Portuguese Navy school sail ship Sagres. They have tested the wine (they had keep identical wine) and they could saw that it was not a legend but a very verifiable difference: Much more complexity more harmony, more evolution...and a price that goes with all that

Moscatel de Setúbal Torna Viagem - Moscatel

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

The red boat looks a bit like a Van de Stadt BLACK SOO. Very similar. Very fast.


----------



## PCP

*Tarann / Black soo*



bobperry said:


> The red boat looks a bit like a Van de Stadt BLACK SOO. Very similar. Very fast.


Yes, when Vand de Stadt was designing his own boats and was one of the most innovative NA around. There should be a law against using the name of a deceased NA while designing boats that have nothing to do with his original talent and inovation

The Black Soo is from 1957 and the Tarann from 1961 and both used what could be a modern ballasted keel. The Tarann was a more beamier boat however, even if the Tarann was not a beamy boat. Both had the same type of chined hull. Rge cabin of the Van De Stadt was better designed, at least aesthetically speaking since the Tarann offered more interior space.

The Tarann LWL was 8.10m nad the beam 2.66m. The Black Soo had a LWL of 7.90m and a beam of 2.13m. Both had about the same draft (1.75 and 1.80m) and had a big B/D ratio, most of it on their bulbs (48% and 49%). Both were considered very fast and seaworthy and of course, decades ahead of their time.

The Black Soo:





The Tarann:







Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

A couple of other designs with, if not 'modern' fins, serious ballast bulbs include the Star class (1911) and the venerable Cal 20 (1961)


----------



## PCP

*Allures 39.9*

For the ones really interested in the boat Yacht.de tested the boat and it will published in the first magazine of 2014. Some photos from the test:











I really hate that interior. Light and luminous interiors are fashionable now and I like them but it is not enough to paint everything white

http://www.allures.fr/pdf/FR_Allures399-Brochure.pdf

I really cannot understand. I like a lot the interior of the 45:

Allures 45 - Allures Yachting

That is even better on the real thing than in the 360º photo and I cannot understand why they have changed the style (and quality of design) so much. I doubt that many would prefer the new style.

They give credit to Franck Darnet for the interior of the 45 and none to the interior of the 39.9. Maybe they thought that they could save some money and make a "nice" interior designed in the house. If that was the case they will lose much more money than the one that would cost a decent interior study by a good specialized interior designer


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Tarann / Black soo*



PCP said:


> Yes, when Vand de Stadt was designing his own boats and was one of the most innovative NA around. There should be a law against using the name of a deceased NA while designing boats that have nothing to do with his original talent and inovation
> 
> The Black Soo is from 1957 and the Tarann from 1961 and both used what could be a modern ballasted keel. The Tarann was a more beamier boat however, even if the Tarann was not a beamy boat. Both had the same type of chined hull. Rge cabin of the Van De Stadt was better designed, at least aesthetically speaking since the Tarann offered more interior space.
> 
> The Tarann LWL was 8.10m nad the beam 2.66m. The Black Soo had a LWL of 7.90m and a beam of 2.13m. Both had about the same draft (1.75 and 1.80m) and had a big B/D ratio, most of it on their bulbs (48% and 49%). Both were considered very fast and seaworthy and of course, decades ahead of their time.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Here's a great photo of Stephen Buckingham's "turbo-ed" Black Soo "Starbuck", sailing off Tiburon, CA in San Francisco Bay. Note the retractable sprit and "square-top" main. 










There are some great photos (and a video) of the boat's restoration on a Dutch site:

Wat voor boot is dit ???

I've seen the boat on several occasions, sailing on SF Bay, and it's a beauty.

A good thread about the design and about Starbuck and Mirage, in Sailing Anarchy, with very large pictures of the hull shape and keel, which also show the flared aft quarter section quite nicely:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=52413


----------



## PCP

*ARC start - movie*

I know that it already started some days ago but the video only showed up recently:






You can see the race and the ones that are doing the transat cruising here:

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

The Transat Jaques Vabre and the mini transat are just finishing and then I will follow this one with more attention.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Tarann / Black soo*



MrPelicano said:


> Here's a great photo of Stephen Buckingham's "turbo-ed" Black Soo "Starbuck", sailing off Tiburon, CA in San Francisco Bay. Note the retractable sprit and "square-top" main.
> .....
> There are some great photos (and a video) of the boat's restoration on a Dutch site:
> 
> Wat voor boot is dit ???
> 
> I've seen the boat on several occasions, sailing on SF Bay, and it's a beauty.
> 
> A good thread about the design and about Starbuck and Mirage, in Sailing Anarchy, with very large pictures of the hull shape and keel, which also show the flared aft quarter section quite nicely:
> 
> Black Soo/ Royal Cape One design, details of - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums


the boat sails nicely...and incredibly fast for a more than 50 year old boat.






PS - Please don't post photos so big. They put the page out of configuration and give work to Faster


----------



## Sapwraia

There are some fantastic old designs out there which were way ahead of their time and have aged well - even able to updated without losing the original spirit. The Cal 40 from 1964 is one (although I've never seen first hand). A real favourite of mine is the Stewart 34 from NZ.

First launched in 1959 it was a revolution on Auckland harbour : light & shallow hull with deep fin keel and spade rudder (actually too small and rules changed later to allow deeper spades - see boat on the sling). Approx 60 built and still enjoying good one design fleet racing - up until the late 80's they were being used for the professional match racing event in NZ. They displace 4,695kg.

A simple concept and can be picked up for a very fair price today looking through the website its almost tempting ..........

Stewart 34 Yachting | The official web site of the Stewart 34 Owners Association of New Zealand

pics ........


----------



## Sapwraia

*Re: Allures 39.9*



PCP said:


> For the ones really interested in the boat Yacht.de tested the boat and it will published in the first magazine of 2014. Some photos from the test:
> 
> I really hate that interior. Light and luminous interiors are fashionable now and I like them but it is not enough to paint everything white
> 
> I really cannot understand. I like a lot the interior of the 45:


Paulo - I fully agree - unfortunately the 39.9 didn't show up at the Southampton boat show as promised. The 45 was there and its clear the interiors are a different quality. Al those chamfered corners with veneer joints i think will damage quite quickly. I'm ok with modern interiors but here seems like they've let down the hull & deck which is superb. A also notice there's been quite a bit of price creep since they announced it so not quite the interesting deal that it was.


----------



## donjuanluis

Hello people, a lot of intersting topics going on already, but wanted to share about it. Reading the blog Una Familia un sueño un velero!, which is about a family's dream coming true to cruise the world, found the story of the S/V MAAIKE-SAADET in this link http://waltertje.nl/wp-content/uploads/Yachting-World-artikel.pdf. The related vessel is a Bestevaer 53 with some special modifications. Besides the boat improvement, I really was touched by the story, as the titles says "Where theres's a will" 
Regards and fair winds.


----------



## PCP

donjuanluis said:


> Hello people, a lot of intersting topics going on already, but wanted to share about it. Reading the blog Una Familia un sueño un velero!, which is about a family's dream coming true to cruise the world, found the story of the S/V MAAIKE-SAADET in this link http://waltertje.nl/wp-content/uploads/Yachting-World-artikel.pdf. The related vessel is a Bestevaer 53 with some special modifications. Besides the boat improvement, I really was touched by the story, as the titles says "Where theres's a will"
> Regards and fair winds.


Juan, thanks for sharing. I read the story on the yachting World magazine but you are right it is a hell of a story and deserved to be posted here.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Allures 39.9*



Sapwraia said:


> Paulo - I fully agree - unfortunately the 39.9 didn't show up at the Southampton boat show as promised. The 45 was there and its clear the interiors are a different quality. Al those chamfered corners with veneer joints i think will damage quite quickly. I'm ok with modern interiors but here seems like they've let down the hull & deck which is superb. A also notice there's been quite a bit of price creep since they announced it so not quite the interesting deal that it was.


It is still an interesting deal, if they change that interior colors and it seems they do, you can see that on one of the movies the interior is different, with wood instead of all that white but what happens is that on an aluminium boat the price is less proportional to the size than in a fiberglass boat. Now the price of the 45fter, that one is really interesting for a 45ft boat. In fact I have some difficulty in understanding how they can make a boat with that quality, in aluminium by that price.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Stewart 34*



Sapwraia said:


> There are some fantastic old designs out there which were way ahead of their time and have aged well - even able to updated without losing the original spirit. The Cal 40 from 1964 is one (although I've never seen first hand). A real favourite of mine is the Stewart 34 from NZ.
> 
> First launched in 1959 it was a revolution on Auckland harbour : light & shallow hull with deep fin keel and spade rudder (actually too small and rules changed later to allow deeper spades - see boat on the sling). Approx 60 built and still enjoying good one design fleet racing - up until the late 80's they were being used for the professional match racing event in NZ. They displace 4,695kg.
> 
> A simple concept and can be picked up for a very fair price today looking through the website its almost tempting ..........
> 
> Stewart 34 Yachting | The official web site of the Stewart 34 Owners Association of New Zealand
> 
> pics ........


What a beautiful boat. I like the hull even more than the other fast oldies that have been posted. The keel is modern but less modern but that hull is just beautiful. The boat has also a great LWL for the size and we can only tell that is am old boat by the cabin design. That is strange how such boats were designed has early as the late 50's and the industry keep producing full keel boats. I guess sailors are really conservative in their ways.







I did never heard about the Designer, Bob Stewart and I could not find on internet nothing about his work, except what you posted. I could find another nice design of his for sell, a 39ft and a steel long keel boat but that was it. I guess he had the bad luck of being born in NZ in a time were the world was not a global place like it is now and was limited by isolation and the small size of the market. A shame and a pity.

1966 CUSTOM BOB STEWART CAMELOT for sale | Trade A Boat, New Zealand

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*

and that's it, last post about the Transat Jaques Vabbre: On class 40 things went as previewed : 1st Rogues, 2nd Pella, 3rd Riechers.

A well deserved victory for Rogues that had always maintained Riechers at distance and only allowed its recovering when they damaged their sails.

A great 2nd for Pella, the fastest on the race that did not won only because lost 190nm on a forced stop in Spain and a good 3th for Riechers.





Jour 24 - Arrivée des 3 premiers Class40... _por TransatJacquesVabre_

Regarding that all Spanish team (2nd) and the other two boats you can see that they are a low budget team: No publicity on their boat and lots of publicity on the two other boats. Good for them. I guess now they will find sponsors to get the white out of their sailboat

It seems that the boats to have for winning on class 40 are the Sam Manuard design (1st and 3th and most of all the Marcelino Botin design (2th) and that comes as a surprise from a Spanish NA without experience on 40class design. Well, now he has

Let's see hoe the New Pogo S3 will rank among these.

On the mini transat the race is *HOT*!!!!

Benoit Marie quite unexpectedly has showed that his boat and himself could be a match to Pedote and his bathtube bow boat downwind in medium to strong winds. Decidedly Pedote's boat bigger advantage is on a beam reach where he can take advantage of all extra RM. Benoit Marie recovered all the miles lost and is now at 25nm at 326nm from the finish and it is faster almost 1k than Pedote. Maybe Pedote has some problem with his sails.

Regarding the trio that are battling for 3th, Delesne has finally managed to overtake Garcia and is at 33nm from Remi but Remi has a better wind angle and is winning miles over him. Garcia and is old boat seem not to be completely beaten by Delesne: They are 1k faster now and it is possible that we will have here a great fight till the finish.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> On the mini transat the race is *HOT*!!!!
> 
> Benoit Marie quite unexpectedly has showed that his boat and himself could be a match to Pedote and his bathtube bow boat downwind in medium to strong winds. Decidedly Pedote's boat bigger advantage is on a beam reach where he can take advantage of all extra RM. Benoit Marie recovered all the miles lost and is now at 25nm at 326nm from the finish and it is faster almost 1k than Pedote. Maybe Pedote has some problem with his sails.
> 
> Regarding the trio that are battling for 3th, Delesne has finally managed to overtake Garcia and is at 33nm from Remi but Remi has a better wind angle and is winning miles over him. Garcia and is old boat seem not to be completely beaten by Delesne: They are 1k faster now and it is possible that we will have here a great fight till the finish.


I suspect the wind conditions may be very localized as they approach the finish, which could account for the speed discrepancies. Even though the little green arrows on the metéo make conditions look the same across a large area, in my experience that is seldom the case. All it takes is to sail into a hole and you will lose a lot of miles very quickly. Nothing worse than going slow while other boats pass you nearby. 

And light air is where we know the scow is vulnerable and the more conventional designs have an advantage. Pedote can only hope that he can stay in decent breeze to the finish. He was only 0.8 knots slower than Marie at the last update, with 320nm to go. Fermin, with the hotter angle, was 2.5 knots faster than Delesne, which will help him remain calm for a while longer. 

This has really been a superb race, even with all the RC screw-ups in the early weeks. It will be interesting to see if they change the format for future Transats and start with a short leg to Spain or Portugal, followed by a long leg to the finish. Might be the best way to deal with the tricky Bay of Biscay in the future. Getting around Finisterre was certainly brutal this year.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat*



MrPelicano said:


> I suspect the wind conditions may be very localized as they approach the finish, which could account for the speed discrepancies. Even though the little green arrows on the metéo make conditions look the same across a large area, in my experience that is seldom the case. All it takes is to sail into a hole and you will lose a lot of miles very quickly. Nothing worse than going slow while other boats pass you nearby.
> 
> And light air is where we know the scow is vulnerable and the more conventional designs have an advantage. Pedote can only hope that he can stay in decent breeze to the finish. He was only 0.8 knots slower than Marie at the last update, with 320nm to go. Fermin, with the hotter angle, was 2.5 knots faster than Delesne, which will help him remain calm for a while longer.
> 
> This has really been a superb race, even with all the RC screw-ups in the early weeks. It will be interesting to see if they change the format for future Transats and start with a short leg to Spain or Portugal, followed by a long leg to the finish. Might be the best way to deal with the tricky Bay of Biscay in the future. Getting around Finisterre was certainly brutal this year.


No, the wind seems strong, they are very close to each other and Benoit Marie keeps recovering. He is now at only 18.6nm with 284 to go and is 2k faster. Definitively I think something is wrong on Pedote's boat, maybe the sails or a rudder. It is going to be close!!!!

Garcia and Delesne keep fighting. Garcia is at less then a mile and is faster 0.2K. Now that is a battle, it seems Garcia, old boat or not, will not make the life easy to Deslene

Even if Pedote has problems he will not say anything just for not boosting Benoit moral, even if this one does not need it. A fantastic race for someone that never won a race and that never been better than 4th in any mini race. He wants to win this one badly.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 349 presentation movie*

The boat looks good, the interior is great and the way they show it is very well done.






Another great Marc Lombard design and that great interior design is made by the house designers. Jeanneau seems to be the only brand with interior designers able to provide interiors with the same design quality of the best specialized cabinets and NAs.


----------



## PCP

*A very odd movie and some lucky sailors*

Can someone explain me why they did not move the boat before the mooring lines snapped???


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: A very odd movie and some lucky sailors*



PCP said:


> Can someone explain me why they did not move the boat before the mooring lines snapped???


In 4 more hours, at this rate, Marie is going to be passing Pedote. I believe your analysis is probably correct - sail issues for Pedote. He's still doing 8 knots, so probably not rudder-related. Would be a real pity to get this far and lose the race because of gear failure. But don't want to take anything away from Benoit, who has sailed a tenacious race, never giving up even when Pedote was extending earlier. A real nail biter, as we say.


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*



MrPelicano said:


> In 4 more hours, at this rate, Marie is going to be passing Pedote. I believe your analysis is probably correct - sail issues for Pedote. He's still doing 8 knots, so probably not rudder-related. Would be a real pity to get this far and lose the race because of gear failure. But don't want to take anything away from Benoit, who has sailed a tenacious race, never giving up even when Pedote was extending earlier. A real nail biter, as we say.


Humm, I still don't understand why they did not move the boat

But maybe all is not lost for Pedote depending on the sail where he has problems. If it is the main he is toasted but if it is the Spy for light winds maybe the stronger wind (16k) he has ahead will be enough for not losing so much with the smaller spy, assuming the problems is with sails and the bigger spy.

There are other interesting fights: The battle between Garcia and Delesne is not not finished. Deslene has an advantage of 1.9nm but Garcia was faster on the last measured speed by more than 1K. It will be interesting

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Marie is now 9nm ahead of Pedote with 149nm to the finish. Amazing!


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*



robelz said:


> Marie is now 9nm ahead of Pedote with 149nm to the finish. Amazing!


Yes, amazing the tenacity of Benoit Marie that even out performed by a faster boat never let go but sad for Pedote that has obviously technical problems that prevent him to be faster. Anyway in stronger wind the difference of speed between the two boats is smaller, just about 0.5K. Unfortunately for him the stronger wind is going away and at the end Pedote is going to be much slower. Probably he lost the spinnaker for lighter winds.

On that fight for 4th, Delesne is slowly going away from Garcia that cannot take more speed from his 15 year old boat (he is now at 4nm). Incredible race for both of them, Garcia taking an incredible performance of a very old boat and Delesne, long time 2th, recovering about 50nm to Garcia since he was forced to stop for getting a new energy pile.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

A great race

A note regarding the others that are still at the middle of the Atlantic: This year the trade winds seem to be much higher than usual and they are in the middle of the Atlantic without trade winds, beating many times against the wind in weak winds making between 3 and 5K. I think they are going to have a problem with supplies. Noddy previewed this abnormal weather situation and many will take a month to cross the Atlantic. I believe that the organization has to find a way to drop food and water for the ones that have a need.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Aureus XV*

The Aureus XV is on the water. We cannot see it sailing yet but can have a look at the interior and to the incredible controls that allow the boat to be sailed by a couple.


----------



## PCP

*Nautic, Paris*

and if like me you cannot go to the Paris boat show, one of the biggest, at least you can see some of the boats in a virtual visit

Hanse 345:

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique International de Paris

Triaskell

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique International de Paris

Elan 210

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique International de Paris

Oceanis 55

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique International de Paris

Lagoon 39

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique International de Paris

Dufour 500 Grand Large

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique International de Paris

FOUNTAINE PAJOT H LIA 44

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique International de Paris

Amel 55

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique International de Paris

Sense 46

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique International de Paris

Hanse 575

Visites virtuelles à 360° du Nautic - Salon Nautique International de Paris


----------



## donjuanluis

*Re: A very odd movie and some lucky sailors*



PCP said:


> Can someone explain me why they did not move the boat before the mooring lines snapped???


What make and model is for the involved sailing boat ?


----------



## PCP

I think it is an Island Packet 380 the only contemporary production boat that uses some kind of a full keel, better say a long keel. 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

*Re: A very odd movie and some lucky sailors*



PCP said:


> Can someone explain me why they did not move the boat before the mooring lines snapped???


From looking at the beginning of the clip, they are attached to a mooring by a line halfway down the stem on a bow eye fitting.. not exactly an easy release. Personally I'd have cut that line and been long gone, as you say.

The video is not continuous but it seems that there were people on board the whole time (no dinghy appears later, and surely had someone gone to the boat in a dinghy at that time that alone would have been video-worthy)

They did well to escape all that.. the pity is that surely the whole incident was avoidable?


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat and the Vendee Globe on the American sport's press:*

"*It is the most treacherous race you probably never heard off *":






Someday they will find out about the mini Transat and regarding that one with 71.6Nm to go Pedote, since he was overtaken, is for the first time slightly faster than Benoit Marie, not much, 0.2K. That means he was able to fix the problem he had? or just a casual difference in wind intensity?

I hope it is the first one and in that case he has 15K for recover. Even with the boat at 100% it would be close to impossible: They should arrive in about 10 to 12 hours and that would mean 1,5K difference in speed.

I am very curious to know what happened with Pedote's boat.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Aureus XV*



PCP said:


> The Aureus XV is on the water. We cannot see it sailing yet but can have a look at the interior and to the incredible controls that allow the boat to be sailed by a couple.


This is a gorgeous boat, albeit a bit minimalist and "cold" down below. One thing I noticed is a lack of handholds both topside and below - unless there are integrated holds where the coach roof curves down towards the port lights (couldn't tell in the video). Definitely didn't see any on the coach roof forward of the cockpit. Presumably they could be added at the buyer's request. I would also be be a bit nervous about such great dependence on electric power offshore. One hopes it's a very dry boat below.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mini Transat and the Vendee Globe on the American sport's press:*



PCP said:


> "*It is the most treacherous race you probably never heard off *":
> 
> Someday they will find out about the mini Transat and regarding that one with 71.6Nm to go Pedote, since he was overtaken, is for the first time slightly faster than Benoit Marie, not much, 0.2K. That means he was able to fix the problem he had? or just a casual difference in wind intensity?
> 
> I hope it is the first one and in that case he has 15K for recover. Even with the boat at 100% it would be close to impossible: They should arrive in about 10 to 12 hours and that would mean 1,5K difference in speed.
> 
> I am very curious to know what happened with Pedote's boat.


To be fair, most Americans have never heard of F1 or the Premier League either. And if you asked, I predict 7 of 10 could not tell you what the World Cup is about. So no surprise the Vendée Globe is unheard of here.

As for the MT, I'm very conflicted right now. I definitely have supported Pedote and 747 from the start - indeed, all season long during the various races in which they participated. But I am also extremely impressed by the efforts of Benoit Marie, and it may well be the case he truly deserves to win the race.

But, as we have all been saying for the past few weeks, there are many examples of outstanding sailing to be found this time, all through the fleet. Belloir is now going to be a household name in France and should move up to the next level immediately. Not only has he crushed the Series class, he has embarrassed not a few Proto skippers. Delesne is also putting up a heroic struggle to get a podium finish; without the stop to replace his fuel cell, he might very well be leading the race, or at least giving Pedote and Marie another thing to worry about. Likewise, Mettraux and Garcia are winning new fans, and I predict Mettraux is going to get a lot of sponsor attention after this, as did Isabelle Joschke, after her comparable success in the Classe Mini.

I will be very sad when the MT is over and have to wait two years for the next one (not to mention the wait for the next Vendée). I'd like to say I'm excited about the start of the VOR, but the decision to go one design, along with a weak global economy, has really put a damper on that event. With just a few months before the start, only 2 teams have been announced and there are plenty of rumors that Volvo may have to cough up money to pay for at least two or three programs, just to meet their commitment to sponsors for 8 boats on the line. Indeed, I've struggled to care about this race since Illbruck won it, a number of years ago.


----------



## Faster

*Re: Aureus XV*



MrPelicano said:


> This is a gorgeous boat, albeit a bit minimalist and "cold" down below. One thing I noticed is a lack of handholds both topside and below - *unless there are integrated holds where the coach roof curves down towards the port lights (couldn't tell in the video).* Definitely didn't see any on the coach roof forward of the cockpit. Presumably they could be added at the buyer's request. I would also be be a bit nervous about such great dependence on electric power offshore. One hopes it's a very dry boat below.


I think the handholds below are integrated below the ports at the cabinside/deck transition.. but with all the white it's hard to say for sure.

Agree, impressive and somewhat stark all at the same time, and far too much reliance on systems (impressive machinery space, though) As to the tool storage (and knives).. very trick and clean but only good for those specifics.. hope there's room somewhere for a regular toolbox.

Of course it's all moot anyhow, the price on this baby must be something else.

Too bad Google doesn't do audio translate yet...


----------



## PCP

*Winner 900 Nordic edition.*

For the ones that prefer small cruisers with traditional designs to the more common beamy boats based on Open boats, the winner should be the perfect choice. A very traditional outlook on a modern hull, very performant in light winds and with a lot of stability in stronger winds coming not only from a torpedo keel (with a considerable draft) but also from a big B/D. The boat offers also a lovely cruising interior.





It seems that, in what regards small cruisers, the ones that prefer these type of boats, that offer a smaller interior, a less good downwind performance but a more efficient and comfortable ride upwind, are not a dying species. The boat has been a sales success and I would say quite unexpectedly. It seems that they have managed the right cocktail regarding classic looks, performance, quality and price.

A very nice boat that is now even nicer presenting as option a more cozy new interior called "Nordic".


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*

At less than half an hour from the finish Benoit Marie celebrates already his victory.Look at the big spinnaker. I bet that Pedote is coming with a much smaller sail.





Some preoccupation with Justine that went South very slowly before coming again on the right course. They diverted a ship to see if it is everything alright with her.


----------



## PCP

*Mini Transat*

Benoit Marie won the Mini Transat and finnished in 18d 13h 01m 05s with an average speed of 8.25 knots. Not bad for a 22ft boat


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mini Transat*



PCP said:


> Benoit Marie won the Mini Transat and finnished in 18d 13h 01m 05s with an average speed of 8.25 knots. Not bad for a 22ft boat


Happy / sad at the same time. He earned this victory in every respect, and that includes equipment preservation, which is key to winning. And an 8.25 knot average over that distance is extraordinary. That means he was seeing serious double-digit speeds for a good part of that time. Chapeau Benoit!


----------



## PCP

*Re: Mini Transat*



MrPelicano said:


> Happy / sad at the same time. He earned this victory in every respect, and that includes equipment preservation, which is key to winning. And an 8.25 knot average over that distance is extraordinary. That means he was seeing serious double-digit speeds for a good part of that time. Chapeau Benoit!


This is not the Vendee globe and their communications are limited. He only knew that he had won when a TV boat appeared and started taking photos and filming.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*And here comes Pedote*



Pelicano, as you can see he has the big spinnake on and that's why he was not losing much time for Benoit Marie on the last 50nm or so.

The reason he was overtaken by Benoit Marie and lost his 25nm advantage was because he broke the spinnaker pole (at 300nm from the finish) that as you now on these boats is huge. He could not fly any spinnaker and was losing 2K to Benoit Marie.

He had repaired it on the way and that was not easy for sure, that thing is really big and he was racing. He said also that he was intoxicated with the epoxy. To put things worse, if the results of the first leg would have counted we would have won the race because he was more than 3 hours ahead of Benoit Marie then.

Bad luck on two counts. I guess that this race has two winners, at least for me. Both made a great race.

Regarding Justine it seems that she had fixed her problem and is back again at speed. I wonder what happened for being so much time with an erratic course and doing 5K?


----------



## PCP

*Benoit Marie crossing the finish line on the mini transat*





Arrivée de Benoît Marie - 1er Décembre 2013 _por minitransat_


----------



## PCP

*Benoit Marie crossing the finish line on the mini transat*





Arrivée de Benoît Marie - 1er Décembre 2013 _por minitransat_

*"I never had given up...I did not knew I had won.....I pushed my boat more than ever, all the time"*

It seems we have a deserving winner and one that nobody would expect to win this race, a true outsider, one whose best result had been 4th in a minor race. I guess we have a new contender for the mini class races Now he would not be an outsider no more.


----------



## robelz

Can one explain me in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up? Or is it just because of the very long bowsprit making the distance between fore- and mainsail too big?


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Aureus XV*



Faster said:


> ... impressive and somewhat stark all at the same time, and far too much reliance on systems (impressive machinery space, though) As to the tool storage (and knives).. very trick and clean but only good for those specifics.. hope there's room somewhere for a regular toolbox.
> 
> Of course it's all moot anyhow, the price on this baby must be something else.
> 
> Too bad Google doesn't do audio translate yet.


I fully agree. A blue water cruiser should first be simple and efficient, with good back-ups in case of failure of all the gizmo's. Also the galley and saloon/nav configurations don't seem seaworthy to me.

Otherwise this presentation is no less, no more than a good commercial talk, so the images mostly speak for themseves. The extra valuable information is:

* Only available in two cabin version, both with en-suite heads/showers;
* The saloon configuration can be changed;
* Self tacking or 105% solent;
* Teak deck or easy maintenance imitation (as shown);
* Last but not least: 
- 1.200.000 € full option ex VAT (carbon/epoxy hull, deck; carbon mast/boom, 4D sails, hydraulic systems, genset + hydrogenerator, dishwasher, multimedia, airco, etc., etc.)
- or from 800.000 € ex VAT for a much more basic version (glass/epoxy, aluminium boom, Hydranet sails and without the rest of the above).

So even with the Euromillions jackpot in the pocket, I would personally re-think a lot about this kind of yacht before considering even the ARC.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

robelz said:


> Can one explain me in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up? Or is it just because of the very long bowsprit making the distance between fore- and mainsail too big?


I think you're right Robelz, at least considering asymmetric spinnakers and code sails. 
Because the relatively small staysail can only add efficient sail area and give extra power if there's enough distance between the luff of the mainsail and the spinnaker.

This only works with a (long) bowsprit. Without this, the bigger spinnaker and mainsail are too close to each other. The airflow between them is very much slowed down, because the upwash from the mainsail is fighting the downwash from the spinnaker.

The staysail between them would then not only be inefficient (little airflow) but also disturbing this slower an therefore more delicate laminar flow, which is essential for the power of the mainsail.

Mini's also carry swinging bowsprits that can bring the tack of the asymmetric upwind. Not only to catch the upwash of the main earlier (= stronger and under a better angle), but also to produce a more leeward and thus weaker downwash from the spinnaker. 
In this case less is more, because the delicate laminar airflow between spinnaker and main is less slowed down, making a staysail between them even more efficient.

With a symmetric spinnaker things are of course very different. Especially dead downwind when these sails are much more efficient on boats that don't benefit from gybing downwind for an optimal VMG. But then there's no more laminar flow, so almost no interaction between the sails and therefore also no added value for staysails.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up?*



robelz said:


> Can one explain me in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up? Or is it just because of the very long bowsprit making the distance between fore- and mainsail too big?


It would not add much if you are cruising but will add something if you are racing. It has not to do with the long Bowsprit because on Figaro II they do the same (as in other boats). For what I can understand they don't use it in very strong winds neither in very light ones. They don't use it also when they are trying to go as downwind as they can. They use it in all other conditions even if some use it more than others. Some movies will give you a better information:

This one is not a good example he is just showing off






These are good examples:































Pelicano, what you say about this?

Edit: I did not saw Erick post about this subject. I do not agree that the use of a staysail with a spinnaker in what regards racing is only useful on the mini racers but on the mini racers, or in any boat with a big spinnaker pole, it will be more effective. Well, I don't know any racer with a pole as big in proportion with its size as a mini-racer so Erick is right in pointing that it is specially useful on those boats.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Aureus XV*



EricKLYC said:


> I fully agree. A blue water cruiser should first be simple and efficient, with good back-ups in case of failure of all the gizmo's. Also the galley and saloon/nav configurations don't seem seaworthy to me.
> 
> ....
> So even with the Euromillions jackpot in the pocket, I would personally re-think a lot about this kind of yacht before considering even the ARC.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric


I would not agree with you on that one. The boat can be sailed solo with all those electronic and hydraulic controls but can also be sailed the old way, manually. You can have more (sail at the touch of a button) but still you can sail the way all the others boats sail, manually. So only gains nothing to lose. I would also point out that those systems are used on maxi yachts (100ft) for many years now and have reached a very good degree of reliability.

sure the boat lacks hand holds but that is a boat with a very high degree of customization so that would not be a problem.

Regarding not doing the ARC on this one I hope you are kidding. This boat as I have said can work with hydraulics and electric engines but can also be sailed manually as a back up. It even has a self tacking stay sail. This boat is a carbon boat, very strong and with a huge stability. Eric, this is a 15 m boat with over 12 000kg od displacement a B/D ratio of 35% almost all of it in a torpedo at 2.60m . I am quite sure it is a very seaworthy boat not only to do the ARC but to go anywhere.

Click on the red dots and you will see that the boat is not just talk but the specifications are as impressive as the price

Wild luxury yacht - The Aureus XV sailing yacht presentation

If I was very rich this one would be on my short list.











Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Light vs Heavy Displacement monohulls*

I have found this article so interesting and so according with my own thought that i will post it fully. It was written by Aurélien Poncin the founder of Aureus Yachts:



Light displacement versus Heavy displacement sailing yachts is an old and passionate debate in the monohull offshore cruising world (Luckily this debate is long gone when it comes to multihulls).

First of all, let me tell you what I mean by "Light displacement", or "Heavy displacements" hulls, yachts or designs, and what exactly will be compared in this post:

In both cases, I assume boats are properly built, and especially the composite parts. Achieving a proper building and reaching the optimal mechanical properties to weight ratio for the composite mix you use (fiber, resin and core material) requires a lot of skills, experience, tools, researches, tests and above all care for "the state of the art spirit".

Producing state of the art offshore yachts requires curiosity, as technologies are evolving quickly, and a passion for sailing of course. A properly built heavy displacement sailing yacht will always be a better offshore yacht than a light to medium displacement yacht built without caring for details and/or with bad processes&#8230;and vice versa.

When it comes to safety, I assume that both light displacement and heavy displacement yachts are well prepared, and carry a full safety inventory that matches the ISAF recommendations. The first safety is the sailor's care for safety. Wearing an adequate inflatable life jacket when on the watch, a harness together with a reliable safety line, a multi purpose knife and a personal MOB device (alarm + AIS) makes any boat safer for offshore cruising. The preparation and a good knowledge of the boat are also very important.

Now, to give you a precise idea of what I call "light" and what I call "heavy":

A typical heavy displacement 50 feet monohull offshore cruiser weights 18 to 20 tons.

A typical light displacement 50 feet monohull offshore cruiser, with the same level of equipment, weights 12 to 14 tons thanks to carbon/epoxy composite and T-shaped keels.

Today's offshore racing sailing yachts are "ultra Light" displacement yachts. For instance, the extreme IMOCA's 60 footers , that run the Vendee Globe, weight under 8 tons.

For more than 2 decades now, offshore sailors are debating "light vs heavy" and strangely the dominant argument of the heavy displacement enthusiasts is Safety.

I say "strangely" because the obvious and main reason to go for heavy displacement hulls today is because of the bigger inside space that can be offered and the big amount (and weight) of equipment that can be put on-board (generator, washing machine, air conditioning, water maker, etc.).

As you will discover in this article, light displacement yachts, when properly built by skilled and carrying craftsmen and properly equipped, are now as safe as heavy displacement sailing yachts, can be almost as comfortable and carry an impressive equipment inventory&#8230;and they are much faster.

As the passionate builder of the Aureus XV, you might argue that I have a strong bias in favor of light displacement hull designs, and of course you would be right. I believe light displacement sailing yachts are the best fit for demanding offshore sailors, and my point here is to illustrate why, with facts.

This being said, it's also important to notice that whatever your choice is, none of those philosophies can, alone, make a great offshore sailing yacht. There are great boats, properly conceived and manufactured in both categories.

It is crucial to look for a builder that is coherent, masters the composite technologies and cares about all the details involved in the construction, and there are a lot. The best way for this is to visit the yard and talk to the technicians.

There is nothing worst than a light to medium displacement design that ends up weighting 10% or 15% more than the architect's and builder's optimal target, by lack of care or skills. Those boats are usually bad performers, uncomfortable yachts, and less safe (the center of gravity always suffers from such a non predicted weight gain).

Keep in mind that such designs won't tolerate laxity or approximation from the builder. Being 2 tons heavier on a heavy displacement design is also bad, but the effect on the behaviour and safety of the boat won't be as bad as on a lighter boat.

I see a boat as a long chain of choices to be made that must remain coherent with the initial choice of displacement type. Each piece of equipment is chosen not only for it's general quality, reliability and fair price, but also for their compactness and their weight (or the weight they allow you to save elsewhere on the boat).

A "state of the art" boatbuilder, after he has chosen the design, sets a realistic target of weight and develop a coherent and balanced yacht keeping those targets at the center of any construction steps. There are now luckily many materials and technologies that offer the same quality, resistance, reliability and durability for less weight. Those materials and technologies allow builders to offer boats that are very well equipped and still light. Here are the most common and popular ones:

The infusion process, when done well, considerably reduce the amount of useless (excessive) resin in any composite part. In comparison, the way it was done 20 years ago, and is still done in some traditional shipyard is pre-historic. The pre-preg technology goes even further, pre-impregnating all the fibers with just the sufficient amount of resin.

Carbon fibers and epoxy resin allow builders to manufacture lighter, stiffer and more durable hulls, structure and deck. It's even more true for masts and rigging. The result is a need for a less powerful, thus lighter engine, less demanding in Gasoil. It's a virtuous circle.

New batteries (gel or Lithium-ion technologies) and renewable energies
sources on-board allow builders to put less battery weight, while maintaining a high capacity for a good electronic installation and modern electrical comfort equipment. A Hydro-generator, under sail, and solar panels at mooring can produce a lot of energy. On a well-conceived boat, it allows to reach a high level of comfort without having to run the generator too often (reduce the amount of Gasoil to carry).

A careful selection of each piece of equipment, and accessories can lead to another saving of a few hundreds (yes hundreds!) kilos.

During the last decade, more and more light to medium displacements sailing yachts have participated to offshore rallies and they are now overtaking heavy displacement yachts in most of the events, such as the ARC. Of course, light displacement yachts trust the winnings and they have proven to be as safe as their heavier competitors in offshore conditions.

Here are 14 key facts to help you make your mind, or remake it&#8230;

*Safety at sea:
*
#1: 
Though they have usually a keel ratio around 40%, which is high, the center of gravity is usually higher on any heavy displacement yachts than on good light to medium displacement sailing yacht. This is due to the slightly deeper T-Shaped, , keels of the light to medium displacement.

When it comes to safety, know that the lower the center of gravity of the boat is, the better. The center of gravity is very important when the boat is brought to extreme angles (above 90°) as the lower the center of gravity is, the more chances you'll have not to capsize (we're talking about really extreme conditions here, that can be avoided with a serious weather analysis).

It means a well designed and properly built light displacement sailing yacht will perform better and be as safe in hard conditions. By the way, the center of gravity both vertical and longitudinal of your boat are precious data to collect.



Comparison heavy and light displacement yachts - center of gravity for the boat (blue points) and the keel (green points). Those are two typical designs.

The light displacement is a 13 T (Keel 4.8T - Draft 2,95m) Aureus XV Absolute, fully equipped for offshore navigation. The heavy displacement, on the left, is based on an average 50 ft heavy displacement central cockpit, weighting 19 T (Keel 8T - Draft 2,35m)

I must say that when comparing two stability curves, heavy displacement yachts will prove to have a better stability between 30° and 120°. It means their weight will reduce the amplitude of movements. It's an advantage of heavy displacements, the disadvantage being a lower speed. But the curves also show that at threatening bank angles, the light displacement will offer a higher stability (capsizing at a higher angle and being easier to redress).

Finally, the stability in the common angles (0° to 35°) is quite close for both design. To sum it up, both designs offer a very good stability in common angles, Heavy displacements will be more stable (less amplitude and slower movements) in the uncomfortable zone between 40° and 90°, but will lose their advantage in critical angles, above 120°.



Stability curves. Comparison between the curves. In blue the heavy displacement (the one from the drawings above), in Red the Aureus XV Absolute. Both designs offer a nice stability in the common angle. The heavy displacement stability is better in the "unusual angle zone",between 30 and 110°, due to its superior weight. But the light displacement will offer a better stability in the "critical zone" where it's about not capsizing, or recovering from capsizing, due to its lower center of gravity.

#2: 
In tough downwind conditions, when the boat is running with the waves, heavy displacement sailing yachts will be caught-up by waves more easily, due to their reduced speed potential. That will affect the steering reactivity, which is not good in hard conditions (note that the term "hard conditions" is relative.

A professional offshore sailor will be just fine in 8 to 9 Beaufort, whereas some people will define "hard conditions" as a wind above 6 Beaufort, probably 5 when sailing upwind).

#3:
Both heavy and light displacement yachts can equally benefit from fully centralized maneuvers at the helm station (automatic reefing system, electric or hydraulic furlers, electrical winches, etc&#8230 thus allowing crew members to stay attached in the cockpit when conditions are tough.

#4:
Speed is also a safety issue. When faced with the imminent arrival of hard conditions, speed allows you to get away as fast as possible or reach a shelter.

*Speed and sensations:*

This is the tipping point. A light displacement sailing yacht is a much better performer than a heavy displacement one, both in terms of speed and sensations.

#5: 
Light Displacement yachts are faster, the sail area/displacement ratio is more important giving the boat more power. Light displacement yachts offer less resistance to water (reduced "wet surface") and their hull designs are less asymmetrical, meaning a light displacement design will create less rolling downwind. It's an important point to consider, since downwind is what offshore sailors are looking for when planning trips.

#6: 
When it comes to performance and balance, Light displacement yachts' T-shaped keel are much better than the traditional long shoal fin keels usually fitted under the heavy displacement hulls. The downsize is that they have a bigger draft (the center of gravity of the keel is as much important in its efficiency than its weight). If you want to solve that issue on a light displacement yacht, go for a lifting keel.

#7:
Light displacement monohulls can sail to descent speed in light winds, where heavy displacement monohulls will have to use the engine propulsion. It means you need to embark and burn much more Gasoil and will be sailing less often. I think this is a very important point pleading for light displacements.

Generally, many things on a heavy displacement must get heavier to get the same level of resistance or reliability as the light displacement yachts. A heavier anchor, a heavier mast, heavier rudders, heavier keel to balance the heavy structure and equipment, and so on. This is a vicious circle.

*Comfort on board:*

#8:
Heavy displacement hulls generally offer more living space as comparable length. To get the same level of equipment and space on a modern light displacement hull, the solution is to go for compact and clever accessories. Their draft is also generally lower (60 cm in our example), meaning you can go closer to the beach.

#9: 
Heavy displacement sailing yachts are generally slower and less comfortable downwind. But in return, they can provide an improved comfort at helm station. The reduction of the boat's windage is not a real concern on heavy displacement yachts, and a lot of them offer central cockpits with hard tops structures. The aesthetic is not really modern, but the result is a dryer helmsman in agitated condition.

Basically, if getting a little wet in tough conditions is a central concern to you, a heavy displacement is what you need. I really consider this as a comfort issue, not a safety issue.

A light displacement sailing yacht's cockpit is as safe as the cockpit of a central cockpit, but definitively exposes the skipper more to water projections and wind. I find those conditions thrilling and rely on a modern, very comfortable and light full weather Gore Tex® gears, but others are OK to trade the thrill for a dry place under heavy conditions.

#10: 
Light displacement sailing yachts tend to roll less downwind.

#11:
Light displacement sailing yachts above 50 feet can now benefit from a lot of equipment without having to embark tons of fuel and dozens of heavy batteries. Modern batteries offers 2 to 5 times more disposable energy than traditional lead batteries and their lifecycle is 2 to 3 times longer. And wait for it: They are lighter, at comparable capacity.

With integrated hydro generators, light yachts are now rewarded with an easy and durable energy source while sailing and the fact that they sail faster allow them to reach an incredible autonomy at sea. A single very low drag hydro generator, such as a Watt and sea hydro generator can produce up to 500W at 8 knots, and you won't see the difference in your speed. Have a try of the Aureus XV absolute and you will be amazed by how effective a modern sailing yacht can be in terms of energy consumption and production.

*Price and value*:

There was a time, in the boat industry, where people said: you can estimate the price of a yacht looking at its weight, and this was quite coherent. This was correct when all builders and brands were stuck with the same materials (Basic Fiberglass and poor quality Polyester). Since everybody was using the same materials, the heavier the boat was, the more raw material was included, the higher the cost. So naturally, heavy displacement yachts were higher priced and considered as the "premium or luxury solution".

But now, carbon fibers, titan and new technologies are available on the market and allow major gain in weight&#8230;at a relatively heavy cost. So this old wisdom is not right anymore. Now you can reach the same mechanical properties at half the weight.

A carbon hull costs more to (properly) produce than a heavy displacement hull, even twice as heavy. A multiplexed DC cabling is half the weight of a traditional DC cabling but also costs three times more. Gel batteries cost twice as much as standard lead batteries and Ion-Lithium batteries 10 times more.

#12: 
Today, to offer the same level of comfort and equipment as a heavy displacement sailing yacht, a light displacement sailing yacht must be built in carbon/epoxy using vacuum infusion (or pre-preg) process. This is the only possibility to counter the weight of equipment such as Generators, descent fridge and freezer, dishwasher, water maker, hydraulic and electric manoeuvres, etc&#8230; So a state of the art offshore cruising light displacement sailing yacht will be more expensive to build than a heavy displacement yacht.

#13: 
On the other hand, carbon/epoxy hulls are much more durable than Polyester or Vinylester hulls. A remarkable light displacement yacht using carbon/epoxy offers, contrarily to what is generally said, a much better durability than a traditional E-glass (fiberglass) using polyester or vinylester. This value in time is to be considered. To learn more about resins or fibers, check out our post: Polyester vs Epoxy and Fiberglass vs Carbon.

#14: 
Light displacement offshore sailing yachts have considerably reduce their dependence to combustion engine or generator. It reduces the need for Gasoil consumption, isn't that good news for environmental concerned sailors ?

Most of the heavy displacement sailing yachts brands keep using the same materials as 20 years ago (Fiberglass, Polyester resin and plywood).

In the meantime, materials like carbon and epoxy have made their proof on hundreds of sailing yachts' laminate, they are now totally reliable and allow innovative builders to produce much faster, safer and durable yachts. I really think that a "state of the art" modern light displacement sailing yacht is the best fit for offshore sailing, even though the appearance of a good old heavy displacement keeps on reassuring some sailors.

I think a lot of brands are very conservative both in design and construction because they are used to it, and because a lot of customers are also used to those good old materials and design. They assume their qualities are better, since they are used for years on good quality yachts, and they assume they will naturally last longer. Well, that's kind of wrong ! A properly built epoxy hull will automatically last longer and with better performances than a Polyester hull or deck, plus you don't have to fear any osmosis any more.

I hope this plea for lightness will resonate and encourage skeptical sailors to give a try to well-built light displacement offshore sailing yachts, for more sensations.

Please feel free to disagree or comment, for the sake of the debate.

Thanks for reading,

Aurelien"


----------



## robelz

Have you heard of T-Yachts? They are not new but they are new to me.

T-Yachts Germany auf der Interboot 2012 - T Yachts

Specs of the 34 are similar to a JPK 1010. I love the interior. They also have a 38 and soon a 42...


----------



## robelz

*Re: in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up?*



PCP said:


> Pelicano, what you say about this?
> 
> Edit: I did not saw Erick post about this subject. I do not agree that the use of a staysail with a spinnaker in what regards racing is only useful on the mini racers but on the mini racers, or in any boat with a big spinnaker pole, it will be more effective. Well, I don't know any racer with a pole as big in proportion with its size as a mini-racer so Erick is right in pointing that it is specially useful on those boats.


Well, the are in a different situation, going upwind with the Spi. I was thinking on reaching courses with the Asym as often seen in Minis and more seldom on other boats (sometimes on Class40s, never(?) on IMOCAs)...


----------



## robelz

EYOTY Yachts Part 2:

Europas Yacht des Jahres 2014 - Teil 2 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


----------



## PCP

*T yachts*



robelz said:


> Have you heard of T-Yachts? They are not new but they are new to me.
> 
> T-Yachts Germany auf der Interboot 2012 - T Yachts
> 
> Specs of the 34 are similar to a JPK 1010. I love the interior. They also have a 38 and soon a 42...


Yes I have already posted about it. I love the boat. It belongs to the same category of other Italian fast cruisers that are not very well known like the NM yachts or M yachts. Great boats






Italy as a production of that type of boats as big and good as the French one but the boats are much less known since the Italians race less out of their waters.


----------



## PCP

*Re: in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up?*



robelz said:


> Well, the are in a different situation, going upwind with the Spi. I was thinking on reaching courses with the Asym as often seen in Minis and more seldom on other boats (sometimes on Class40s, never(?) on IMOCAs)...


Now I am confused The asymmetrical spinnaker is a downwind sail. Are you not confusing it with a code 0?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*European Yacht of the year movies*



robelz said:


> EYOTY Yachts Part 2:
> 
> Europas Yacht des Jahres 2014 - Teil 2 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


Just great, thanks for posting. Beautiful movie, beautiful boats.

The Safier 26 looks very fast in light winds, the HR looks an old design and the Ice looks gorgeous on the inside and on the outside. I don't like that much the Mylius interior, but what a sail performance: There is an image where we see the Mylius overtaking the Ice, going closer to the wind with an huge speed difference of speed. We can see also that the boat is incredibly fast on the light stuff.

The interior of the Oceanis 38 looks fantastic but the sailing performance in light wind seems not better than the one of the Bavaria 37 that has now a nice interior and it is a fantastic package for the price.

The Dufour 410 interior is also fantastic but I have heard also some negative comments regarding the performance in light winds. In that respect it seems to share the disadvantages of the Oceanis 38...both has very large transoms that seem to drag a lot of water on that situation.

Regarding performance cruisers the Elan 400 and the Dehler 380 seem fantastic but the Dehler interior is just better in what regards space, taking into consideration that is a 38ft boat. The premier 45 sails like it looks: Great... very fast on the light wind.

On the special category the little Django seems very fast on the light conditions and the Essence is a cute traditional daysayler that sails very well (I want one to sail out of season). The Dutch are just great doing these type of boats.

Many other interesting boats like the Pogo 30, the xp 33 or the Contest. This one seems to sail very well for that type of boat and has a great interior.

What an amazing crop just for one year of production they will have a lot of difficulty regarding the choice among such nice and good boats.

For the ones that missed it, here is the first part of that presentation, I mean the testing for the European boat of the year:

Europas Yacht des Jahres 2014 - Teil 1 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

*Re: in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up?*



PCP said:


> Now I am confused The asymmetrical spinnaker is a downwind sail. Are you not confusing it with a code 0?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


There are several Asyms, but the Code is an upwind sail.

Take this one, wind seems to come from about 90°: http://segelreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/mini-sieger-ii.jpg

I am talking about A0, 1, 3 and 5 or G3 in this charts:
Vorwind Segel Performance Guide


----------



## robelz

*Re: T yachts*



PCP said:


> Yes I have already posted about it. I love the boat. It belongs to the same category of other Italian fast cruisers that are not very well known like the NM yachts or M yachts. Great boats


You can have lots of pretty new T34s (built 2010/2011) for about 100k€ with a huge sail wardrobe. That's a competitive price if you consider a similar JPK 1010 (150000+x)... The interior for me looks much better for cruising.

Talking about competitive boats at competitive prices: Silva Hispaniola (European Champion in ORCi 2011, 5th at the WOrld Championships 2012), Judel Vrolijk designed, nealry new wardrobe:

http://www.bachyachting.nl/yachts/html/yacht_evento_42_silva_hispaniola_orc_aid-1234.htm


----------



## PCP

*Not expensive fast cruiser racers:*



robelz said:


> You can have lots of pretty new T34s (built 2010/2011) for about 100k€ with a huge sail wardrobe. That's a competitive price if you consider a similar JPK 1010 (150000+x)... The interior for me looks much better for cruising.
> 
> Talking about competitive boats at competitive prices: Silva Hispaniola (European Champion in ORCi 2011, 5th at the WOrld Championships 2012), Judel Vrolijk designed, nealry new wardrobe:
> 
> Bach Yachting - Evento 42 Silva Hispaniola ORC


That is a 2004 boat, modified but even so a 2004 model, a one off with a racing interior. Regarding competitive boats in ORC that are also very good cruising boats you'd better look to the Salona 37/38 and the Comet 38 but not all the boats are the same and you would have to look to the specifications:

Salona 37:






http://www.bachyachting.nl/pdf/Yacht_Bach_Yachting_277.pdf

Salona - Salona 37 Race

Salona 37 race for sale - Daily Boats | Buy, Review, Price, Photos, Details

2007 Salona 37 for sale in 17480, Roses- Costa Brava, Spain - boats.com

Comet 38






Comar Comet 38 s year 2008

Comar Comet 38 yachts - Used boats

Regarding the JPK 10.10 it is very competitive in IRC and not as much on ORC. It is also competitive in solo or short crew racing, a thing that none of the others are besides it has a much better racing record and that means something in what regards demand and price

Regarding new boats and in what regards Price/performance/quality/cruiser and racer potential nothing beats the Salona.

Look at the price of new 38IBC with Carbon masts and basalt bulkheads:

https://b7420dbd-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...8_-Vm7nBinb6zIwxIByjDrttmGPGY=&attredirects=0

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up?*



robelz said:


> There are several Asyms, but the Code is an upwind sail.


but may be used by a shorthanded crew for all angles - well at least according to the linked article below...
interesting text btw written from on board neutrogena during the last barcelona world race:
How to Sail an Open 60 | Sailing World


----------



## PCP

*Premier 45 Boat test*

The Premier 45 was designed by Botin and Carkeek. Marcelino Botin is also the designer of the fastest 40class racer around, at least if we consider the information from the last transat.

The Premier 45 was recently tested by a British rather conservative magazine (sailing today) and I was very curious about what they would find about a boat that represents the opposite of a conservative view in what regards cruising. Here was what they said:

*"The Premier 45 has become the flagship of a relatively small but diverse range of yachts built in Dubai by Premier Composite Technologies. The company has grown from a small, specialist outfit, Speedwave, run in the late 1980s to manufacture components for grand prix yachts. Under German brothers Hannes and Max Waimer, they built the first carbon composite spreaders and rudder for Dennis Conner's Stars & Stripes in 1988.

After a spell in Malaysia when the company was a prolific builder of Farr one designs including the Farr 30 (Mumm 30), Farr 40 and the Farr 52...

Being honest, the Premier 45 is a lot about indulgence. That is where it started out....

Sailing performance

I sailed the boat on the Solent twice during the same day. First time out we had 9 to 13 knots of wind from east-northeast, and a nice little chop. Then in the evening it was more like 7 to 10 knots and warmer.

I was not really quite sure what to expect in terms of performance. Would it be all showroom gloss or all performance, which would require a race crew?

The boat was certainly quick and pretty easy to sail. In its current guise, as tested, it is a boat which will delight the experienced, discerning owner.But it can be detuned slightly more for a more sedate, easier life. So you might spec a mainsail with slightly less aggressive roach if you are sailing more usually in moderate breezes, and with the power controls in place perhaps even an in-boom furling system.

On a beat, the Premier 45 was predictably close-winded, feeling very light and responsive on the helm and tracking positively. We could achieve 7.5 knots at 25° off the apparent wind without too much concentration or trimming required.

Keeping the mainsail leech nicely twisted when the breeze was up allowed us to settle and enjoy the ride. Easing the angles open a little more and we made a speed in the low 8s, rising to about 9 knots with the apparent wind on the beam. The rudder profile will get some further attention as it is perhaps very slightly too aggressive....

Setting the asymmetric gennaker is pretty easy. The retractable carbon bowsprit is controlled by a single outhaul line. We launched the light kite from a sock and were off in seconds towards the upper limit for the sail, making 10 knots and surging to over 11 knots at times with no real hassles and just three on board.

The helm remained light most of the time, very much more akin to a pedigree race boat in its feel. Suffice to say, the all-round sailing performance is sparkling but pleasingly manageable."*

Premier 45: Review and test - Sailing Today | Sailing Today

I love the suggestion that the boat should have a furling boom

It seems that even if a bit upset they had to say that the boat was not only about showroom gloss and would not require a race crew. Then they talk about the boat being all about indulgence meaning probably that speed and sail pleasure are all about indulgence and they talk about a"toy" and imply that the boat is hugely expensive. In fact this an all carbon boat with a great cruising interior nad costs less than a Halberg Rassy 43 MkII, but there they would probably say that the quality justifies the price...and the HR is not a toy

So, do you understand why I said conservative magazine? But even so they took some interesting speed registers:

With between 9 and 13k? or with 7 to 10 knots? and light chopping seas the boat made:

with 25ºAW - 7.5K "without too much concentration or trimming required"

*"Easing the angles open a little more and we made a speed in the low 8s, rising to about 9 knots with the apparent wind on the beam. "*

Downwind with the asymmetric spinnaker they went at 10K surfing over 11K.

Yes, easy and fast, fun with a great performance upwind and a nice cruising interior this is my type of boat. I can understand that some would prefer an heavy and slower HR 43MKII but I find it amazing this boat being less expensive.

I hope it will make European boat of the year in the performance class. There, on the jury, with the exception of the British representative they are not a conservative lot.



PCP said:


> The boat is average in what regards beam ( 4.15m) -for instance a much smaller Hanse 415 has 4.17m - but is hugely stiff, with 41% of B/D, considering a draft of 2.75m and a high profile torpedo keel. The draft is not a problem because the keel lifts in only 20 seconds to a very convenient cruising draft of 1.85m.
> 
> It is made with high tech materials and weights only 8000kg and that means that it does not need a big sail area to go very fast, in fact the boat has an upwind sail area similar to my boat (Comet 41) but can carry downwind an huge sail area: 260m2
> 
> The Premier 45 was tested recently by Yacht de and I was not surprised with their very flattering comments...it just confirms that Wow impression on Dusseldorf. They said:
> 
> * "Elaborately built like a racer, comfortably equipped as a cruiser: The Premier 45 ideally combines the best of both worlds....she sails gorgeous, fast, agile and problem-free with a performance that is easy to access. This makes it a unique design both outside and inside...
> ..."*
> 
> Premier 45: Charakter und Leistungsbereitschaft - Service*|*YACHT.DE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marcelino Botin one of the designers comments on the boat:
> 
> *"We are expecting the Premier 45 to be fast. It is quite a light boat with a hull based on the TP52 concept, with a wide, powerful stern section, but with high stability. But it is a cruiser, very fast for her size. In terms of performance she should excel both upwind and downwind. Upwind you have a good deep keel and plenty of sail area, and downwind she will fly. We expect her to be faster than the typical competition by a big amount.
> 
> " And for us as designers, it is great to have a high tech composite cruiser built in the very controlled environment that Premier has. It ensures that the boat comes out close to the design weight, and hence to the performance we expect."
> "There are a lot of owners who are looking for this type of boat, a smaller Wally-type yacht with a very minimalist, clean approach."*
> 
> Premier 45, the ultimate performance cruiser | JEC Composites
> 
> You can see more pictures here:
> 
> Botin Partners


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up?*



PCP said:


> ... For what I can understand they don't use it in very strong winds neither in very light ones. They don't use it also when they are trying to go as downwind as they can. They use it in all other conditions even if some use it more than others.
> 
> ...
> 
> I do not agree that the use of a staysail with a spinnaker in what regards racing is only useful on the mini racers but on the mini racers, or in any boat with a big spinnaker pole, it will be more effective. Well, I don't know any racer with a pole as big in proportion with its size as a mini-racer so Erick is right in pointing that it is specially useful on those boats.


These are very fast, planing boats that can create a strong and especially sharper incoming apparent wind. So even at let's say 120° true they can still keep a laminar airflow around the sails because the apparent wind will be somewhere around the beam. 
Slower boats will be in the much less efficient turbulent airflow mode with only negative interaction between the sails (masking).

Dead downwind I think they only let the solent up to prevent the spinnaker from wrapping around the forestay when gibing.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Aureus XV*



PCP said:


> ... Regarding not doing the ARC on this one I hope you are kidding. This boat as I have said can work with hydraulics and electric engines but can also be sailed manually as a back up. It even has a self tacking stay sail. This boat is a carbon boat, very strong and with a huge stability. Eric, this is a 15 m boat with over 12 000kg od displacement a B/D ratio of 35% almost all of it in a torpedo at 2.60m . I am quite sure it is a very seaworthy boat not only to do the ARC but to go anywhere.
> ...


This is a wonderful design Paulo, don't let me be misunderstood.
But I still would't even do the ARC with it unless I had an engineer on board .

E.g. I wouldn't like the hydraulics to let me down when I want to roll the solent in a squall. Manual back-ups will always be a B plan on boats designed for push-button sailing, in this example it would mean going on deck to lower the sail.

I very much appreciate the NA's 14 point argumentation about the qualities of light displacement yachts . 
It only seems very contradictionary to first build the lightest possible hull and then stuff it up with heavy hydraulics, dishwashers etc. .
That's why we have our son Jim as a "weight watcher", with almost dictatorial authorities .

Of course, as long as all the gizmo's keep on working properly, this yacht must be a **** star sailing palace . But we'll probably be faster in most conditions :laugher.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Re: Aureus XV*



EricKLYC said:


> This is a wonderful design Paulo, don't let me be misunderstood.
> But I still would't even do the ARC with it unless I had an engineer on board .
> 
> E.g. I wouldn't like the hydraulics to let me down when I want to roll the solent in a squall. Manual back-ups will always be a B plan on boats designed for push-button sailing, in this example it would mean going on deck to lower the sail.
> 
> ...
> Eric


Not so, instead of pushing a button you will have to do exactly the same you have to do on your boat: from the cockpit you will use the winches manually. No need to go on deck.

Regarding the hydraulics its funny you have so much doubts about it when your boat has a swing hydraulic keel

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Aureus XV*



PCP said:


> ...Regarding the hydraulics its funny you have so much doubts about it when your boat has a swing hydraulic keel
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo




To swing a 2.2 ton keel there's not really any realistic alternative to hydraulics (and with a 3m draft there's also not really any realistic alternative to a swinging keel, but this is of course another discussion).

But for maneuvring sails there certainly are alternative solutions, starting with winches that are sufficiently sized for manual operation.

I know from experience (manipulating the keel when the boat is being lifted = no engine = no hydraulics) that the manual back-up (plan B) is very hard work .

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Archambault 13*

I knew that the boat was going to be a great racer but it seemed to me that it would be an even more radical boat (in what regards cruising amenities) than the other A boats. It seems that it was their first intention but....:

*"However, having given the design some more thought the designers Joubert- Nivelt and Fruschi along with Archambault have designed 4 versions of the brand new A13 &#8230;.

The A13 Cruiser, The A13 IRC comfort racer, The A13 IRC racer and the out and out stripped down A13 Racer."*

*COOL!!!!*

*"So the A13 basic designs consist of: 6.3 to 6.7 T, allowing planning at 60° from 12 Kts wind and at 120° from 15 Kts wind. IRC TCC between 1.16 and 1.18. Open cockpit with tiller or double wheels with seats and protection for offshore racing. "*

*Planning at 60º with 12k wind?* *COOL!!!!*

and the better part is that the interior on the cruising version and even on the comfort racer looks really good

*Cruiser version:*















*Comfort racer:*


----------



## robelz

*Re: Archambault 13*



PCP said:


> *Comfort racer:*


Hmmm, the pictures suggest it as a racer, not a comfort racer...

I really love the A13. 6.3-6.7t is the weight for the stripped down racer? I wonder what the other versions will have. More than 8t for the IRC comfort cruiser?


----------



## PCP

*Re: Archambault 13*



robelz said:


> Hmmm, the pictures suggest it as a racer, not a comfort racer...
> 
> I really love the A13. 6.3-6.7t is the weight for the stripped down racer? I wonder what the other versions will have. More than 8t for the IRC comfort cruiser?


You mean, the names on the pictures? don't let that fool you: that is a comfort racer not a boat made mainly to race Actually even on that version it has a relatively good cruising interior, much more comfortable than the one of a racer.

I guess those 400kg are the difference between a naked racer and the cruising version.

regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Saphire 27*

We talked already about this boat but after seeing its very good comparative sailing performance on the tests from the European boat of the year I think the boat deserves revisit.

The objectives of the builder where attained: this is a boat that can compete at high level on a regatta and a daysailer for the family. the Saphire 27 is easily transported. An interesting sailboat no doubt with a very attractive price.

*SAPHIRE addresses to ambitious sailors who like to practice their sport with family and friends. They love high speed, pure sailing and racing but at the same time they want to use the boat for leisure and fun. People, who decide today to spend a weekend on another lake tomorrow with their family. Slip and trail without a crane! Easy and uncomplicated! People, who don't want to spend all their money on one hobby only. People, who are young and ambitious in their spirit. They want to be among the winners on the sunny side of life. They want to enjoy. They want to share their passion. They want to race!...

PRADA Luna Rossa's designer, Claudio Maletto and his team developed the most advanced one design production sailboat on the market!...

You don't need a crane to launch SAPHIRE! The lifting keel with an easy and light to set carbon rig makes you free and independent. Launch the boat directly from the trailer and set the mast autonomously....

You don't see it, you don't hear it but it's there! You can buy an electrical Torqueedo Outboard engine as an option which would be fully integrated below the cockpit with a remote control....

SAPHIRE is sold directly on boat shows and on the web to offer you the very best price! Direct delivery to your home address. The boat is so simple, that you can do your first setup easily. This allows us to offer you the best price - performance ratio in the market. You have the opportunity to deliver the boat through a yard and we will take care that you get the "delivery package" from your yard.*

Saphire Boats - Design it!

and in fact by 50 000 euros this boat offers a lot if compared for instance with a Jboat from the same size, much more expensive and less polivalent.


----------



## robelz

*Re: Archambault 13*



PCP said:


> You mean, the names on the pictures? don't let that fool you: that is a comfort racer not a boat made mainly to race Actually even on that version it has a relatively good cruising interior, much more comfortable than the one of a racer.
> 
> I guess those 400kg are the difference between a naked racer and the cruising version.
> 
> regards
> 
> Paulo


6.7t for the cruising version is fantastic!

It's not only the title of the pictures but they name it the same way on the whole Archambault page. And there will be an even lighter racing (without IRC)-Version. I guess the IRC-comfort version will at least have one double berth and maybe al smaller locker (instead of a whole 3sqm room) for sail wardrobe, wet clothes and so on...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Archambault 13*



robelz said:


> ...
> 
> It's not only the title of the pictures but they name it the same way on the whole Archambault page. And there will be an even lighter racing (without IRC)-Version. I guess the IRC-comfort version will at least have one double berth and maybe al smaller locker (instead of a whole 3sqm room) for sail wardrobe, wet clothes and so on...


That is easy to settle. Let's wait and see

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

*Re: Archambault 13*



PCP said:


> That is easy to settle. Let's wait and see
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Ummm. I am like a little boy waiting for christmas...


----------



## PCP

*Sormiou 29*

Since we are talking about small fast boats with a very spartan interiors at an affordable price, an interesting one that has not been much talked is the Sorminou 29:



*The SORMIOU 29 was imagined by three great figures of the sailing world : the shaper J.P. Gallinaro, the architect O. Philippot and the world champion R. Sautieux, winner of 1991's Admiral's Cup. Together, they created a dream yacht, the one they wish they could have purchased but simply did not exist on the market. Thanks to these men, the Sormiou 29 reflects qualities of an exceptional polyvalence:

• The most secure in its category
• Strong sensations, a ship both fast and easy to sail
• A great quality of life on board
• Amazing functional aesthetics
• Transport and parking made easy

The standard Sormiou S 29 come equipped with front and back crash-boxes with watertight bulkheads. The structure of the Sormiou S 29 is pretty much indestructible: the hull and deck are 23 mm thick 100% infused sandwich, reinforced by an infused composite structure that wraps around the keel, mast base and the midship frame. The 500 kg ballast, lodged in the profiled led bulb at a 2m depth provides the boat with a powerful righting moment.

The Sormiou 29 are unsinkable, even with a major hull breach. The floatation of the infused sandwich is completed with 1500 litters of foam, laid throughout the bottom of the hull. The Sormiou 29 all receive B category certification as standard. Should you wish to add two inflatable volumes in the storage compartments along the side of the hull, the Sormiou 29 becomes certified for tackling the Atlantic ocean in A category with 2 people on board.

Technical data

Hull length	8,81 m
Waterline length	8,30 m
Maximum beam	2,99 m
Structure	80% sandwich infusion 23 mm
Light displacement	1900 kg lège
Height to deck beam	1,75 m
Ballast	500 kg of which 400 kg in the bulb
Draught	1,95 m (fixed keel)
1,95 m/1,40 m (mobile keel)
Sails	Mainsail: 25 m2
Genoa: 19 m2
Spinnaker: 60 m2 to 70 m2
Sleeps	5/6 people
Steering	mono rudder 1,40 m
Engine	Nanni 10 CV sail drive, or HB
Max speed	Over 20 knots sailing downwind
Gauges 2012	IRC: from 0,999 to 1,002*





















*Le Grand Pavois a été l'occasion de présenter la gamme 2014 à la presse. Les trois versions phares du S29 sont maintenues au catalogue, mais leurs équipements progressent pour les équiper en série des options les plus demandées. Ainsi le Genesis est dorénavant livré en série avec un mât carbone lui garantissant les mêmes performances et la même robustesse que ses grands frères. Le Cruiser est désormais équipé en série de coussins, d'une table de carré composite, de l'eau courante, d'un groupe froid inclus dans la glacière, etc. Quant au Racing, il ajoute à tous ses équipements carbone de série une delphinière, une table de carré et une table à cartes en composite, un moteur Nanni 14 CV, etc.

Cette politique d'options en série permet à nos clients de bénéficier de bateaux complets à des tarifs avantageux.*

*"The Sormiou S 29 is unbeatable when sailing downwind", said Marc Emig at the arrival of "Tour de Corse" after clocking an average 14 knots speed between Cap Corse and Ajaccio. "We were sailing at speeds over 20 knots on severa occasions, without ever breaking gear or getting a hard wipe out".*

There will be two on the next Transquadra.

S 29 Cruiser
S 29 Genesis


----------



## Faster

> the Sormiou 29 reflects qualities of an exceptional polyvalence:




... sometimes you just gotta love Google Translate


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> ... sometimes you just gotta love Google Translate


 "the Sormiou 29 reflects qualities of an exceptional polyvalence"

You mean polyvalence?

"polyvalence Same as multivalence."

polyvalence - definition, etymology and usage, examples and related words

You mean is not colloquial on the US? not used frequently?

That is an old word, in comes from "polus" (ancient Greek)+ "Valens"(latin). The term is used on most of the western languages with slightly different spellings.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

> n polyvalence (toxicology) the state of being capable of counteracting more than one toxin or antigen or kind of microorganism
> n polyvalence (chemistry) the state of having a valence greater than two


From your link.... still 

Are we trying to say 'versatile'??? multipurpose?? I would say that in this context the terms polyvalent or multivalent are not routinely used this side of the pond.


----------



## bobperry

Its Wednesday already and I haven't used either of those words yet this week.


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> From your link.... still
> 
> Are we trying to say 'versatile'??? multipurpose?? I would say that in this context the terms polyvalent or multivalent are not routinely used this side of the pond.


From the link:

*"In news:
Syrian film scholar Cécile Boëx examines how The Light in Her Eyes shatters fantasy and stereotypes about Islam and presents the mosque as a polyvalent space.

In science:
They also formulated a theory of monovalent and multivalent counterions in suspensions of polarizable colloids or nanoparticles which in some respects complements our work where the mono or polyvalent counterions themselves are treated as polarizable.

"polyvalence Same as multivalence."*

Probably that means that the word exists in English but it is not much used by Americans.

other examples:

*"The exceptional firm R was also of this type after dilution of its highly planned collective polyvalence."*

Forcing the Factory of the Future: Cybernation and Societal Institutions - Bryn Jones - Google Livros

*With 18 possible shields, the 27° AIR series offers exceptional polyvalence*

Uptown Eyes, PLLC - Fayetteville Optometry & Eyewear | Gallery

*The success of the First 44.7 is assured thanks to its exceptional polyvalence, an aggressive line and an everlasting price/quality relationship.*

- 44' Beneteau First 447

* a unique insight of Dr Jansen's exceptional versatility in a broad range of research domains, his passion for science and his ample expertise and polyvalence.*

Opus Magnum | Dafra Pharma

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sailing news*

Great edition


----------



## robelz

I found videos of how to handle a boat singlehanded: Manoeuvres du J111 Le Jouet

I also read some reviews of singlehanded use of a J111. They say the layout works well and it is fast, too but it will lose up to 5 degrees when pointing compared to crewed racing...


----------



## PCP

*Solo sailing techniques*



robelz said:


> I found videos of how to handle a boat singlehanded: Manoeuvres du J111 Le Jouet
> 
> I also read some reviews of singlehanded use of a J111. They say the layout works well and it is fast, too but it will lose up to 5 degrees when pointing compared to crewed racing...


Very interesting, thanks for posting. These videos can be of help to any solo sailor, I mean at least for the not very good ones, like me

Besides that the biggest disadvantage will be the boat being less forgiven, less stable and sailing with more heeling than a boat designed for solo race.

Going ahead for changing sales will be more dificult and the boat will roll more downwind needing constant adjustments and because of that it will not be able to be sailed downwind at the same speed a solo boat can, specially on autopilot.

Regarding solo racing it is important to have a boat that is not too demanding and one that does not ask for constant trimming and makes live easy to the sailor. After all they need to sleep while the boat is on autopilot at speed.

*With a crew:*






*Solo:*

The equipment:






The Spinnaker:






Gibing:






Some bright ideas:


----------



## robelz

I will try the "letterbox" (pulling the asym through the main) next time...


----------



## PCP

*Sense 46, new test sail*

A new test on the Sense 46 by Yachting Monthly. If I lived permanently on a boat this one would be on my short list.

Well, I would like a boat more performance oriented but to have this kind of interior space I would have to have a much bigger boat...and I don't believe I could afford that, or having to live on a smaller boat and if i lived permanently on a boat I am not sure that I would chose a better performance over space...at least if I wanted to keep my wife


----------



## PCP

*Garcia Exploration 45*

The Aventura IV from Jimmy Cornel started to be an one off made by Garcia (that belong to Allures) under the specifications of Cornell, using the hull from the Allures 45.





The boat was designed to make a circumnavigation, one more by Cornell but this time going by the Northwest passage with lots of sailing on high latitudes but also lots of sailing on the tropics. So the boat was prepared not only to have a great ventilation but also a great insulation and also to be steered from the inside with a full all around view.

Well not anymore, I mean an one off, in only 3 months they have already 3 more commands and that is even before Cornell's boat is ready (May). I bet this boat, that is also a true deck saloon, will be quickly a favourite among voyage sailors, specially the ones that will sail in high latitudes. The model was called "Exploration 45" and it will be a Garcia.

The hull is already made, in fact the hull and cabin and the boat is now in the phase of mounting all equipment.

Two movies, a short one that shows the hull and a bigger and interesting one about the boat, but unfortunately for some, in French.





18/11/2013 - Présentation du futur Exploration... _por Voilesnews_

Some nice photos here:

Aventura IV turned - a set on Flickr


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Nice!

Optio - Presentation | Wauquiez


----------



## PCP

*That's a beauty, the new Pogo 3*

and something new, it is not a Finot/Conq design but a Verdier design.

Look at that bow. I guess we are going to look at many like that. I like it


----------



## PCP

*Why Pedote did not win the Mini - Transat - Fantastic story*

My opinion about this sailor just went up. Somebody was mentioned he was not a top sailor....I did not agree then and much less now. Well, a top sailor on the Mini, when he passes to the Figaro class he would be average...at least for one year or two

The story:

*First we have to talk about the first stage between Douarnenez and Sada canceled: "I had to have an advantage of about twelve hours. then, 48 hours later, I heard on the radio that the race would be neutralized in Sada. "

... "Having heard the message of the organization ...with the second well 
way back I approached the Spanish port of Sada and try to find the finish line. A boat comes up to me and announces that there is no finish line , without telling me anything more.

I thought it was something serious, a death or a serious incident for them to decide not to finish the race. When I heard that instead it was just a matter of bad weather, I was pissed. The Race Direction did not had the right of not giving a classification due to the already expected weather conditions.

If the Director Denis Hugues saw the necessity to stop the race, he had to provide a classification through a passage point where he considered safe and that would allow a secure passage to Sada for all.

In my opinion he did not have the right to cancel everything.

Pedote then retraces his race from Sada to Point a Pitre. "I knew I had tpo take the same strategy as when the stage canceled. I put myself at the head of the fleet, going for winds as strong as possible (40 knots). ...The first night I was making 13 knots with 30k wind when the the head of one of the two rudders exploded.

... To repair the damage, I worked with the two arms in the water , with a key and eight small bolts. Meanwhile, I called Marie Benoit with the VHF asking him to inform the direction of the race and I had activated the buzzer that indicates "Presence on board." When I saw the head of the rudder I said to myself that my race was over. ... I do not know how I did it - and in an hour and a half I had made the repair and went back to full speed again.

A hundred miles later I realize that there was a crack at the junction of the canting keel. Again I thought: "I'm screwed.". ... I was abeam of Puerto Calero but I realized that if I stopped there for repairs my race was compromised .. So I decided to continue. ... I have chosen to risk rather than finish second. " COULD NOT SURF WAVES ANYMORE "From then on it was all very stressful. From time to time I put the the boat on automatic pilot and put my hands on the crack to see if it was getting bigger.

I thought to try a repair with resin, but I did not. Luckily, otherwise I would not have been able to repair the broken bowsprit at 300 miles from the finish.

... I never expected to lose the race. This second place is dificult to accept. "

..We asked Pedote what have he changed on his boat (named Magnum) after ..he bought it to David Raison. "I worked..on the shape of the sails to fit the way I steer, but I am not still 100% satisfied. Then, I moved the mast forward to make it less ardent. Finally, I disassembled piece by piece the boat for knowing it by heart and always be able to know what to do in the race. ...*

- See more at: Giornale della Vela - Gli Speciali | Pedote Ero partito per vincere ma successo di tutto Giancarlo Pedote parla a ruota libera dopo la delusione del secondo posto alla Mini Transat ma mai


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Why Pedote did not win the Mini - Transat - Fantastic story*



PCP said:


> My opinion about this sailor just went up. Somebody was mentioned he was not a top sailor....I did not agree then and much less now. Well, a top sailor on the Mini, when he passes to the Figaro class he would be average...at least for one year or two
> 
> The story:
> 
> *First we have to talk about the first stage between Douarnenez and Sada canceled: "I had to have an advantage of about twelve hours. then, 48 hours later, I heard on the radio that the race would be neutralized in Sada. "
> 
> ... "Having heard the message of the organization ...with the second well
> way back I approached the Spanish port of Sada and try to find the finish line. A boat comes up to me and announces that there is no finish line , without telling me anything more.
> 
> I thought it was something serious, a death or a serious incident for them to decide not to finish the race. When I heard that instead it was just a matter of bad weather, I was pissed. The Race Direction did not had the right of not giving a classification due to the already expected weather conditions.
> 
> If the Director Denis Hugues saw the necessity to stop the race, he had to provide a classification through a passage point where he considered safe and that would allow a secure passage to Sada for all.
> 
> In my opinion he did not have the right to cancel everything.
> 
> Pedote then retraces his race from Sada to Point a Pitre. "I knew I had tpo take the same strategy as when the stage canceled. I put myself at the head of the fleet, going for winds as strong as possible (40 knots). ...The first night I was making 13 knots with 30k wind when the the head of one of the two rudders exploded.
> 
> ... To repair the damage, I worked with the two arms in the water , with a key and eight small bolts. Meanwhile, I called Marie Benoit with the VHF asking him to inform the direction of the race and I had activated the buzzer that indicates "Presence on board." When I saw the head of the rudder I said to myself that my race was over. ... I do not know how I did it - and in an hour and a half I had made the repair and went back to full speed again.
> 
> A hundred miles later I realize that there was a crack at the junction of the canting keel. Again I thought: "I'm screwed.". ... I was abeam of Puerto Calero but I realized that if I stopped there for repairs my race was compromised .. So I decided to continue. ... I have chosen to risk rather than finish second. " COULD NOT SURF WAVES ANYMORE "From then on it was all very stressful. From time to time I put the the boat on automatic pilot and put my hands on the crack to see if it was getting bigger.
> 
> I thought to try a repair with resin, but I did not. Luckily, otherwise I would not have been able to repair the broken bowsprit at 300 miles from the finish.
> 
> ... I never expected to lose the race. This second place is dificult to accept. "
> 
> ..We asked Pedote what have he changed on his boat (named Magnum) after ..he bought it to David Raison. "I worked..on the shape of the sails to fit the way I steer, but I am not still 100% satisfied. Then, I moved the mast forward to make it less ardent. Finally, I disassembled piece by piece the boat for knowing it by heart and always be able to know what to do in the race. ...*
> 
> - See more at: Giornale della Vela - Gli Speciali | Pedote Ero partito per vincere ma successo di tutto Giancarlo Pedote parla a ruota libera dopo la delusione del secondo posto alla Mini Transat ma mai


Wow! What an ordeal to go through and still come up just 2 hours short of victory. But also, what an example of superb seamanship, in the classic sense of the MT - dealing with each problem on your own, with no outside assistance, while continuing to compete as hard as you can. And, of course, we can say the same about Benoit Marie, as well. Indeed, in Benoit's case, he knew from the start, as well as Pedote, that 747 was faster in most conditions, and that it would require everything he had to win the race.

Perhaps the most important thing to note, from all this, is that everyone apparently knew from the very beginning that the scow was fast, and that this would give Pedote an advantage, should he have the skill to take it (which he clearly did). And, so we now see the new Pogo 3 design from Verdier which incorporates some of the scow bow characteristics, though not in the extreme. And since this is a Series boat, Structures can afford not to go all the way because nobody else (one imagines) is going to build a scow Series boat that will be able to beat the Pogo 3.

The interesting question then becomes: will the Pogo 3 be able to beat most of the conventional Proto designs, thereby forcing new Protos to adopt the scow characteristics? It is not a trivial question because we have seen Belloir finish 6th overall in a Nacira 6.50, and one must assume the Pogo 3 will be faster than that, in the right hands.

Of course, as Paolo reminds me, the scow seems to have the biggest advantage in the Transat race itself, and perhaps not so much in other races. But I'm not so certain that's true, and if the Pogo 3 turns out to be a dangerous weapon, it may, as I suggested, still force the Protos to adopt the more radical design, regardless.

Watching some of the video of 747 in this year's race, it is so obvious to the naked eye why it's so fast off the wind. What is more difficult to understand is why it seems to be equally effective upwind. Only in light air does the extra wetted surface area prove detrimental to speed and performance. But nobody wants to sail in light air anyway. 

So, I predict the Pogo 3 is going to kick all other designs off the podium once it gets into the hands of the top Series skippers.


----------



## PCP

*A look at the ARC*

When it started I said I did not understood why all were following the direct route when it was obvious that there was no wind there and why so few choose to go North, were there were good wind all the way.

It seems that it was the organization that suggested that course, afraid that on the North the wind was too strong.

I had suggested that the best course was to going up till about Madeira latitude and then come down...fast. It seems that the guys from the Knierim 65 are following this thread because they had done just that and are already drinking beers in Santa Lucia when some are still near Cabo Verde.

They did not only went fast as they beat the record of this Transat. It seems that the time I have been following races had teach me a thing or two in what regards routing

It seems that many were afraid of the high winds they could get on that course but they never got more than 30k gusting 40, downwind and for not much time. Most of the time it was 15, 20K downwind. Certainly not conditions for a small boat but most 45ft boats, even cruising boats, would not have any problem with those conditions, providing the crew had a minimum of experience.

They could also went North and not going as high as Madeira latitude and having wind all the way, but less strong wind, with a max over 20/25K downwind. Most of the few cruisers that went North chose that option.

Why had the organization put them on that no wind and upwind course? I guess they knew that there was a lot of inexperienced sailors on that rally and they didn't want to take any risk and I agree with that. But I do not understand why more experienced sailors did not went North. Some went, but i am sure that many experienced sailors keep up with the organization recommendation even if they should new that they would get a very boring and slow transat.

To understand better the situation look here, they have a much better wind information and for 3 days:

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/eventfleetviewer.aspx

The boats on that direct route have no wind and then they will have head wind. Only in 3 days from now they will get better sailing conditions. The guys on the North are coming down full speed to escape stronger winds on the North and will have not any problem with a decent routing. I hope the boats have enough water and food because for some of those that chose the traditional route, it is going to be a loooong transat.

Regarding boats that are doing well, the main spot has to be for the Knierim 65. We had already talked here about the smaller Knierim but not about this one. I will get to it later but for now I should say that it is a new Design and one from Marcelino Botin. Yes the Spanish NA is one of the names that come high on this year's Transats: the fastest 40class racer, the Fastest boat on the ARC.

Definitively Botin got it right in what regards designing boats for a Transat and in two counts: Solo and Crewed. Congratulations to him with special relevance because the Knierim 65 was always ahead (and in about the same course) of the Russian VOR70 that arrived 2nd and at a considerable distance 

As negative performance the one of the Gunboat 62, the big performance cruiser cat, that did not went as North as the two that already arrived, risks to be beaten also by two big and beautiful performance cruisers, a Southern wind 72 and a Nauta 78.

Again, as usually, the Marten 49 is doing a great race among the big yachts, going side by side with a Baltic 78.

The first 40ft boat is as usual a Class 40 pursued by a X 50, both doing a great race but no better than a wauquiez 45 that follows both. The first 40ft performance cruiser is a Pogo 12,50. That cruising Pogo 40ft is battling with ...a racing TP52. Besides the Pogo, the fastest 40ft performance cruisers are several First 40 (and 40.7), but at a very considerable distance.

On the real small performance cruisers going very fast and surrounded by much bigger boats, a Sunfast 3200, a Pogo30, an older and smaller Pogo 8.50 and a first 36.7.

Also doing a great and fast transat, A Dufour 45e, a Grand soleil 43, a Dufour 40.

Some other cruisers (not performance cruisers) going fast (and this one will put a smile on my friend Smack) a Belgian Hunter 36 (that have the balls to head North for wind), an American Southerly 42RS, a Van de Stadt Moorea 45, a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 42, a Dufour 385, a Dufour 375 , two XC 45, a Bavaria 40 and a 42, an Amel super Maramu, a Southerly 110, a Dufour 425, a Bavaria 36, a Benetau Oceanis 411, a Bowman 42 and a Dufour 34.

This year we can also see a very poor performance from the Cats. Strangely no one among them went North for getting downwind medium to strong wind and they found themselves in weak conditions and many times upwind. The results were the expected and this year many big cats are being outsailed by smaller monohulls.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Why Pedote did not win the Mini - Transat - Fantastic story*



MrPelicano said:


> ... Only in light air does the extra wetted surface area prove detrimental to speed and performance. But nobody wants to sail in light air anyway.
> 
> ...


Light airs and upwind with waves (at least some type of waves) even in strong winds. I remember David Raison saying that in the last Transat he was frightened with the punishment the boat was taking in those conditions and was afraid about breakage. David Raison don't seem to me the type of guy that is easily frightened so I guess his teeth should be rattling under the hard motion

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pogo 40S3*



G1000 said:


> And few days later...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice, the new Pogo 40 S3. A Pity it was not ready for the last transat
> 
> PS:we all want to see photos of your new boat. Do you have photos of the building stages?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Wauquiez centurion 57*

Wauquiez has saved not long ago in extremis from bankruptcy and could not fail this boat....and I think it will fail

Nothing wrong with the boat that like all Centurion will be a fast boat and a well built boat but on this highly competitive market this boat needed more than to be a good boat. It is good but banal, nothing really interesting about it. It is nice but the interior without being bad is not really good with that white stripes and cabinets that look odd and out of place.



You can look at the interior here on a 360º photo:

Centurion 57 - Virtual tour | Wauquiez

The boat looks good but it is not one of the nicer Berret and Racoupeau designs. Nothing ugly but a bit heavy on the cockpit zone and completely devoid of WOW factor that is essential on this type of boats. Lots of more interesting designs around. I hope this one will not mark the end of Wauquiez.


----------



## bobperry

Looks very nice to me Paulo but it looks like a lot of other boats. I'm pretty sure I could be very happy with it. I'd like to see how they do that chainplate detail.


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## PCP

*Iy 15.98*



bobperry said:


> Looks very nice to me Paulo but it looks like a lot of other boats. I'm pretty sure I could be very happy with it. ...


Yes that is the problem. For giving the kind of money that boat costs, you need to have the money and to be in love with the boat. That is a nice boat but nothing exciting or something I could find perfect.

Now look at a direct competitor yet on the building phase, the IY 15.98:







The Waukiez is a 57ft the IY a 55ft the dimensions are very similar (except in lenght) with the Wauquiez displacing 18 000kg and the IY 15 800kg. Bigget difference is in sail area with the IY carrying upwind 180 sqm (with main and jib) and the Wauquiez only 143 sqm but with main and Genoa. Since I am sure both boats are well designed and the beam very similar that can only mean that the IY is a more stiff boat. They don't give the ballast but probably the IY has a slightly bigger B/D ratio but important part of the superior Rm will come from the difference in draft: 2.90m to 2.50m.

To be honest I would prefer 2.50m for cruising convenience but that would mean only probably less than a ton more on that bulb. Even so I believe the boat would be faster than the wauquiez, not that the wauquiez would not be fast enough

The really important part is the the IY makes me dream, that one looks like perfection to me even if I would be happy with one of their smaller boats.

The sailboat design is from Mario Cossuti and the interior from Emanuele Pillon but the boat concept is from the owners of the shipyard, Franco Corazza and Marco Schiavuta, that shared their vision with the designers.

To complete the magic the shipyard is in Venezia, once known to be the major naval power on the med and builder of magnificent boats. This one is worthy of the old tradition.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*ARC - Gunboat 62*

And after the race for the 1st between two racing boats, the third place is disputed between three big luxurious performance cruisers, all with a great cruising interior but able to go very fast.

The theoretically faster boat, the Catamaran Gunboat 62 seems to be losing for the Nauta 78 and the Southern Wind 72, the one that had chosen the more Northern, route is coming down much faster. It will be interesting to see if it can beat the Nauta.

Let's have a quick look at these boats ad first let's talk about the Cat.

Gunboat 62:

The Gunboat 62 was built between 2000 and 2005 mad five boats were built, the one racingwa originally the RANA then the LICKITY SPLIT and now ZENYATTA, yes three owners alrteady

Curiously the founder of Gunboats was a Jboat man, Peter Johnstone ,here the story:

*Peter was born into the J Boats (J22, J24, J80, J109, etc) family. Sailboat racing came naturally to him. Sailing accolades include All-American status in Collegiate sailing, and victories in 15 Continental Sailing Championships. While racing consumed Peter's earlier years and instilled a lifelong pursuit for speed, his real passion has been bluewater cruising.

With over 100,000 ocean miles on his own boats, and record attempts as helmsman aboard record-setting mega-cats Playstation and Team Adventure, Peter formed strong views about what a performance cruising boat should be.

Tired of leaning over for days on his 70' keelboat, rolling for weeks at anchor, and with no visibility or real comfort, Gunboat founder Peter Johnstone knew a better cruising solution could be found.

"I wanted to sail level without putting everything away everytime we went sailing. I wanted large enough spaces for true privacy and relaxation. I wanted to be able to walk around without bumping into everyone and everything. Offshore, I wanted the ultimate safety, and to reliably achieve 300+ mile days. Most of all, I wanted those around me to enjoy the sailing."

A catamaran was the logical direction, yet nothing on the market satisfied Peter's vision. He'd been in a similar situation twice before. Both times required a paradigm shifting innovation.

Recognizing the need for yet another paradigm shift, Peter set out to develop his own 62' catamaran. Simply put, the 62' would apply proven durable race boat technology towards the ultimate cruising boat. TRIBE launched in 2001. She exceeded performance expectations, handled like a sportscar, sailed upwind at 15 knots, and downwind above 30. In cruising mode, she achieved nearly 400 miles on a good day, and reliably 300 miles. With a year and half spent aboard cruising with his children, Peter returned home with refinements for further Gunboats.

Shortly after the build of Tribe, word spread and customers sought out Peter to produce more Gunboats. A personal vision became a thriving business. Now, Gunboat manufactures very refined series at 55, 60 and 78.*

Gunboat Home Page

Funny that they did not mention it but the Gunboats, even if under Peter Johnstone requeirements were and are in fact designed by the america Nas Morrelli & Melvin, specialized in multihulls:

*In 2001 Morrelli & Melvin designed a pair of 62' performance-oriented catamarans for clients Clint Clemens and Peter Johnstone. These two Morrelli & Melvin 62's were built by Harvey Yachts in Cape Town , South Africa .

These boats turned out so well that eventually Peter Johnstone formed a company called GUNBOAT to produce these designs. Two more 62's were built by Jaz Marine in Cape Town .

The next several clients desired more interior volume and amenities so the original Morrelli & Melvin 62' design was lengthened to 66' and branded the GUNBOAT 66. Morrelli & Melvin refined the structures, rigs, and layouts in order to optimize this design.

Morrelli & Melvin also designed a 48' high performance cruising catamaran for GUNBOAT. These 48's have proven to be a very popular and capable design, nearly equaling the stellar performance of the 62's.

In 2007, Morrelli & Melvin embarked on a 90' design for a repeat Morrelli & Melvin 62 owner. This design was constructed at the GUNBOAT yard in Cape Town and was launched in April 2010. Sea trials were completed in the US at the end of 2010. 
*

Morrelli & Melvin Design and Engineering ? yacht, multihull, SUP, catamaran, trimaran design and engineering, sales and brokerage

Here you can see a sister boat:






This is the one that is racing the ARC:






and a visit to another Gunboat 62.


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## PCP

*ARC - Nauta 78*

The Nauta 78 is going to win that race for the third but that's not a big deal. I thought it was this performance cruiser (Nauta 78), designed by Reichel & Pugh:





But no, it is also Nauta 78 but this one is a racing boat, even if not a recent one (2001) also designed by Reichel & Pugh. No wonder the boat being able to outsail the Gunboat 62 that is a performance cruiser, not a race boat.


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## PCP

*Southern wind 72*

Well, this one is really a performance cruiser and it seems it will be the first to arrive beating the Gunboat 62.

It is not also a very recent boat, a 2006 design by Reichel & Puig and the interior could be nicer even if it not clearly the one of a race boat:


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## Rhapsody-NS27

I find this to be an interesting boat built by a 12yr old with his grandfather

The Boat. on Vimeo


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## PCP

*ARC - Marten 49*

The Marten 49 is a great design by Riechel & Pugh, built by Marten - Azzura marine, a sad story because they bankrupted in 2009. Its commercially hard to make boats in NZ away from the main markets even if one does great boats and the Marten 49 is one of the best.





*Since the mid-1980's New Zealand's Marten Yachts has been at the forefront of groundbreaking innovations in racing yacht construction. They have been involved with the build of many high profile boats including Kingfisher, Mari Cha III and New Zealand America's Cup challenge boats, pioneering the advance of super strength materials and techniques including autoclaved pre-pregnated high modulus carbon materials.

...Since 2000 the company has moved their focus to the production of the ultimate performance cruising boat, launching a range of Reichel-Pugh designed cruiser racers, the first of these being the Marten 49. ...

In 2005 Marten Yachts became part of the rapidly growing Australian based company Azzura Marine which has an impressive marine portfolio,
....

'The Marten Yachts product range is very exciting. We are offering something more than the traditional cruiser racer; these are yachts that provide engineered exhilaration.

'Steve Marten recognised that Porsche and Ferrari and a lot of road cars are derived from race cars and a lot of that technology, and he wanted to replicate that in the Marten Yacht design.

'People love to drive around in a classy piece of equipment and that is what the Marten is. It's a fast performance cruising yacht and is a very nice cultured product.

'Steve's vision combines the best parts of an engineered race boat with some very contemporary cruising features; user friendly features like a lift keel, a useable carbon fibre anchor assembly and high quality materials are found throughout the boat.

'It is an all carbon boat and we are using SP's latest technology - the Sprint method from SP or Infusion, as some know it. We as a group, have been learning from Steve and he is enjoying seeing his vision coming to fruition.'

By combining the talents of designers Reichel/Pugh and the skills of design engineers at SP Technologies with the experience of Marten Yachts and Azzura Marine, a range of luxury yachts has been created possessing outstanding pedigree - race-bred performance qualities with a spacious, functional layout.

The yachts are clearly intended for the owner who wishes to combine the excitement of a performance racing yacht with the ability to make fast comfortable passages, whilst short-handed or cruising.

Cruising yachts are mostly of traditional design and manufacture. Marten Yachts take a completely new approach, with detailed design, America's cup type construction methods and use of materials that combine to provide superb performance and unrivalled functionality.

Details such as full carbon fibre construction and a lift keel for improved draft and performance when racing and reduced draft for accessibility to harbours and anchorages when cruising, combined with modern clean deck layouts with pop-up cleats and flush carbon hatches, help to compliment the overall design and performance standards. *

Sail-World.com : Marten Yachts thriving with Azzura







The Marten 49, is a 2006 design that was years ahead of its time and today still looks like a brand new boat, a very nice one. Its performance is as astonishing as ever, considering that this is a boat with a great cruising interior and a lifting keel that allows it to cruise almost everywhere.

The boat weight, 9,500kg, is impressively low and even more impressive if we consider that almost half of it (4600kg) is ballast, almost all in a bulb at 3.6m when down and 2.1m when up. This and the fact that the boat is not narrow (4.17m) make this a boat incredibly stiff and Powerful, able to be sailed short handed or raced with a full crew.

About the performance you only need to look at the race map:

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

The Marten 49 has been great part of the race battling with a Baltic 78 (a fast and very good sailboat ) and will arrive not far away from the Gunboat 62 among much bigger boats right among the first.


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## DiasDePlaya

A Perfect day on Gunboat "Cucu Belle" is one of my favorites videos, I love the boat, the photographer is a nice girl, and this video is one of the few in Spanish.

Regards from South America!


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## PCP

*Soto 40*



DiasDePlaya said:


> A Perfect day on Gunboat "Cucu Belle" is one of my favorites videos, I love the boat, the photographer is a nice girl, and this video is one of the few in Spanish.
> 
> Regards from South America!


Specially for you, from Papudo in Chilean waters:






An in Italian water the Portuguese Soto 40 Bigamist won the 2013 European Championship and the Settimana del Bocche Trophy:


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: ARC - Gunboat 62*



PCP said:


> ...
> Here you can see a sister boat:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I ever should get cured of my dislike of catamarans (and if I could afford it ) this one would be high on my list.
> So no doubt in my mind this boat can be very fast.
> 
> But "nearly 30 knots"? No way, José.
> Almost 20 would be more like it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the one that is racing the ARC:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here once again, reduce the reported speed of 19 knots by at least 1/3.
> Of course still very enjoyable , but in my honest opinion even more without cheating with the log.
> 
> As we unfortunately see in too many videos.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Eric
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Soto 40*



PCP said:


> Specially for you, from Papudo in Chilean waters:


I have a beach house in Zapallar, just few kilometers from Papudo, I raced many times there for years, and there my kids learn to sail. Those are my waters!


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## DiasDePlaya

A Gunboat 62 at 30 knots? I can't believe! 20 knot max, maybe 25 in a wave.


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## PCP

*ARC - Update the best performers, not counting performance cruisers*

Bad year for the Cats. Out of the trade winds and with more upwind sailing they are not so hot, even the very fast ones and that's the case of the Gunboat 62 that was beaten, in what regards the first performance cruiser to arrive, by the Southern wind 72 and has at only 140nm the much smaller Marten 49, also a performance cruiser: What a sailboat that one

A lot of big Oysters coming next. Great performance for medium height cruisers: Six of them making a great transat. More medium weight boats going very fast: a brand new Gunfleet 58 and two Discovery 55. These are all English big boats and they are doing very well. Funny that you don't find among the first medium weight big cruisers any big Halberg Rassy.

We can also find some lighter mass market big cruising boats doing very well: two Hanse 575, a Hanse 630 and a jeanneau 57. There are also several big Swans racing but they have been slower than these boats and it seems that this is a kind of turning point. There are a Swan 65, a Swan 62Rs, a Swan 55 and a Swan 51, going well but worse than the English boats, the Hanses or the Jeanneau.

Staying out of the performance boats (I will talk about them on another post and its comparative performance with these boat), another smaller cruisers doing great are a Van de Stadt Moorea 45, two Dufour 385, a Southerly 42 RST, a Xc 45, a Dufour 375, two Bavaria 40, a Bavaria 42, a Dufour 425, a xc 42, a Halberg Rassy 40 a Halberg Rassy 42, a Southerly 110 and a Hunter 36.

In what regards mass production boats, the Hanse seem to dominate on the bigger boats but on the smaller ones it seems that Dufour and Bavaria are the ones going better. Of course, it depends the boats that have entered but it is kind of odd not to find neither Jeanneau neither Beneteau among the boats with better performance in what regards smaller boats.

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/eventfleetviewer.aspx


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## PCP

*ARC- Performance cruisers and comparative difference to other types of cruisers:*

So, how compare performance cruisers in a transat with medium height modern cruisers? A lot of talk about the performance of a performance cruiser loaded for a Transat to be prejudiced to the point of being so slow as medium heavy boats, and some would even believe, than heavy boats. A lot of crap. They are way faster than even bigger medium weight sailboats, as we would see.

First let me tell you that modern boats are only considered medium weight if compared with typical modern mass production boats and the difference is not that big. It is certainly much bigger if compared with what used to be medium weight boats or what used to be the weight of this type of boasts 20 or 30 years ago. An average 30 year old performance cruiser (for instance a Swan) has about the weight of a comparably sized medium weight cruiser today.

Secondly that this year the conditions, except for the ones that chose the North route, did not suit performance cruisers. The bigger difference in speed regards the difference of speed downwind with strong winds where these boats can go to semi-planing or even planing speeds and be way faster than much bigger boats. They sail also better with very light winds and even if this year the conditions were strange, with upwind sailing and not strong winds, really light winds were not so frequent (less than 8k).

And finally that the way a boat is sailed is fundamental to the performance. I assumed that among so many boats (+200) the ones of each type that have the better performance are the ones well sailed. In so many boats we should find some well sailed boats in each type and I will consider irrelevant the performance of the others. Any boat can be very slow if sailed badly or very far away from his potential.

A warning also, the boats that are not racing can use their engine and are using the engine on situations without wind or with head wind. In the end sometimes they give the number of hours each boat used the engine but that's obvious that a boat with a large tankage like the IP 485 that carries 1100L of fuel will be motoring a lot more than boats with a 150L tankage. That will be reflected in their "performance" and on the position they occupy on the map.

Regarding those that went North, they sailed faster and made a big difference to the others that choose a central course. That is the case for instance of the Marten 49 that is ahead of the first medium weight cruiser, a boat twice as big, the Oyster 865 by 30Nm and the oyster is making a very fast transat.

If we went looking for the first medium weight modern with the same approximated size of the Marten 49 we would be looking at the XC 45. I know it is smaller but they are faster than any other 49/50ft medium weight boat (it is just a great cruising boat). There are a difference of about 700nm between the two boats. That means they are about 4 days away.

Curiously and as I have been saying the performance of XC 45, even if not a performance cruiser is similar to top performance cruisers from 30 years ago. We can see that a Swan 51, a swan 46MKII or a Swan 53 are in the same performance range being all at more or less the same distance from the finish (+- 100nm).

The Marten 49 is an exceptional and very expensive performance cruiser. Let's see if difference to more "normal" production performance cruisers is also a big one:

There next performance cruiser is a 50ft boat, a X50. The distance for the first medium weight 50ft cruiser (again the XC 45) is of about 500nm (about 4 days). Another performance cruiser doing a good passage is a GrandSoleil 56 that has a an advance of 117 to 120nm regarding a Gunfleet 58, a Discover 55 and a Jeanneau 57.

The difference will be way bigger if we look at the 40ft cruisers. The faster performance cruiser is a Pogo 12.50. The first medium displacement boat is a Oyster 406 and is at 622nm, a Moody 425 is at 694nm, that means at about 4 days away.

Regarding the distance of the Pogo to modern mass production cruisers the distance is smaller. He have a Dufour 385 at 344Nm, another Dufour 375 at 431nm and a Bavaria 40 at about 500nm. The diference of the first 40ft light modern production boat (the Dufour 385) to the first medium weight 40ft is of about 280nm, almost 2 days.

It is true that the Pogo 12.50 is probably the faster 40ft performance cruiser in a Transat since it is a boat maximized for downwind sailing. If we look at the fastest of the more conventional 40 performance cruisers, a First 40.7, that is at about a day from the Pogo, those numbers will be diminished by 180nm. The First would be at 442nm of distance regarding the first medium weight cruiser, the Oyster 406, even so more than 3 days.

If we look at 36ft boats the first is a First 36.7. The first medium weight 36ft cruiser is a Halberg Rassy 36 at 521nm (about 4 days) and the best modern 36ft cruiser is a Hunter 36 at 267Nm (almost 2 days).

Regarding performance cruisers with around 30ft, the first is a Sun Fast 3200, the second a Pogo 30 and the third a Pogo 8.50. The difference from the first to the last is of 188Nm and the 3200 is way faster. The difference between the two Pogos is only 61nm. The distance from the Sunfast to the first medium weight cruiser, a Forgus 31 is of 729nm (about 5 days) and to the Pogo 30 599nm, about 4 days.

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

We can conclude that in all sizes the difference in performance on a Transat, with the boat loaded with the needed provisions and tankage, between a performance cruiser and a medium weight cruiser is a big one and increases in proportion with the size of the boat. On really big boats, with over 50ft that difference is not as big, maybe because in those sizes the big LWL is a more determinant factor.

We can also see that the performance of a mass produced modern cruiser is better than the one of an medium weight cruiser by about the same margin that separates this one from a performance cruiser.

If we considered heavy boats the diference would even be more substantial. There are some in this rally but as they are not many the best performance between just a few would not necessarily be a good one. They are on the tail of the transat anyway.

Finally we can see that the crew is an huge factor regarding the speed of a boat and if a slower boat cannot go faster than a certain limit, even with the best possible crew, a faster boat can go much slower than his potential with a bad crew. We can see similar boats separated by many days. That has nothing to do with the boat but with the crew.

Just an example: The Belgian Dufour 40 Heckogecko (same model) is at 674nm (about 6 days) from the Portuguese Dufour 40 Conquilha III.

Only two Portuguese boats but both doing well. One is this Dufour the other that First 36.7 that is by far the fastest of the 36ft boats.


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## PCP

*Some great racing: M32 and Extreme series with extreme sailing*


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## PCP

*Optio by Wauquiez*



DiasDePlaya said:


> Nice!
> 
> Optio - Presentation | Wauquiez


Yes, very nice indeed. The Optio is the prof that it is possible to make a boat where the aesthetics play a major part without losing a inch of performance.

I am sure the boat will be a blast and the hull seems very well designed to me, a light boat too, a relatively narrow one with a big B/D ratio, a swing keel that goes from 1.0 to 2.2m draft and two rudders.

A daysailer with a true head and a lot of interesting solutions. On the cockpit the retractable cockpit table and folding seats are just great. The galley has a nice space but I would prefer a gas cooker instead of the micro wave that will dry out the batteries. Maybe they offer that as an option.

I did not like very much the last drawing of Berret & Racopeau for Wauquiez (the 57) but certainly I like this one a lot

























wauquiez opio 9 UK _por Voilesnews_


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## PCP

*Reichel & Pugh new babie.*

A big and beautiful one by the American NA cabinet. I don't now if it is American style or European style, Just a magnificent design, design that today is pretty much universal. Gorgeous boat without concessions in what regards performance


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## robelz

You don't need a talented NA to build a good looking Maxi with unlimited budget...


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## PCP

robelz said:


> You don't need a talented NA to build a good looking Maxi with unlimited budget...


There is a big difference between good looking and gorgeous

Regards

Paulo


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## robelz

PCP said:


> There is a big difference between good looking and gorgeous
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


You got me!


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## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Optio by Wauquiez*



PCP said:


> The galley has a nice space but I would prefer a gas cooker instead of the micro wave that will dry out the batteries. Maybe they offer that as an option.


Just remember that she is a daysailer, you will not cook on board, you just need to heat some food or water for the coffee or tea. For this purpose the microwave is better than a gas cooker.


----------



## PCP

*ARC - Baltic 78*

After the Gunboat 62 (the 2nd performance cruiser to finish) entered the Baltic 78, the 3rd performance cruiser, the one that was battling during the race with the smaller Marten 49, that finished close.

The Marten 49 (7th), that we had talked about is a Reichel & Pugh design, the Baltic 78 (6th) too as well as the Nauta 78 (3rd) and the Southern wind 72 (4th). From the 7 first to arrive only the Gunboat 62 cat (5th) and the two racers that come in 1st and 2nd are not designed by the American cabinet. What an ARC for Rachel & Puigh

I like more the lines of the Baltic 78 than the ones of the Southern wind 72 even if I cannot say the same regarding the interior style but that has to do mainly with the client taste. Both boats are not new designs but even if the Baltic is an year older it is the one that looks more up to date. In fact I bet that few if any would say that is a 14 year old design. Chapeau to Reichel & Pugh.













.......

PS- Hey Erick have you been following the battle of "your" boat, in this case a British one, with a racing TP 52? Incredibly they seem to be winning.

The Pogo 12.50 is not only a very fast boat in a Transat (1 day ahead from the next 40ft) as that particular one is very, very well sailed: beating a racing TP 52!!!! what a shame for those sailors on the racing boat and what a feat for those guys in the Pogo


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## bobperry

Paulo:
Do you have any idea of the price of that Baltic?


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## PCP

*Re: Optio by Wauquiez*



DiasDePlaya said:


> Just remember that she is a daysailer, you will not cook on board, you just need to heat some food or water for the coffee or tea. For this purpose the microwave is better than a gas cooker.


Why not? The boat can be used also as a weekend cruiser or even for an week cruise. It has an head, a freezer and a good sized galley and in what regards that...the batteries would run flat quickly with the use of the micro wave for cooking... and then I like coffee...how the hell I am going to make coffee in a Micro wave???

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Baltic 115*

No Bob I don't know the price. Baltic has stopped making production boats and only make custom boats that don't have a price tag. A lot for sure but a lot less than the boat they are working now, this 115ft designed by judel/vrolijk.



Boats this size are for the the very rich but I surely like a lot more them to have sailboats instead of ugly motorboats. at least they offer us a pleasure to the eyes.

Big sailing yachts are increasing (at least in Europe) since the development of hydraulic and electric systems that permits them to be sailed without a huge crew like in the old times. The crew would not be much bigger than in a motor boat of the same size.

Regards

Paulo


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## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Optio by Wauquiez*



PCP said:


> and then I like coffee...how the hell I am going to make coffee in a Micro wave???
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Optio by Wauquiez*



DiasDePlaya said:


> Not much help with that. I still have to heat the water to almost boiling point.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Optio by Wauquiez*



PCP said:


> DiasDePlaya said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not much help with that. I still have to heat the water to almost boiling point.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo
> 
> 
> 
> I often use the microwave to boil water, is a very efficient water boiler.
Click to expand...


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## PCP

*ARC - Oyster 855*

About 7 hours after the Marten 49 (performance cruiser) arrived the first medium weight cruiser (8th overall) a brand new Oyster 885, a really big Yacht and a small production one. The Oyster took almost more a day than the first performance cruiser, the Southern wind 72 but it is not a fair comparison since the Oyster is a much bigger yacht.

The 885, a Rob Humphreys design is one of the more recent ones on the oyster line and it is a incredible yacht, truly with a house like dimension and to carry all that stuff and commodity so fast is really amazing.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Performance Cruising Cats Set New Standards in Sailing Speed

By David Schmidt

Nathanael G. Herreshoff didn't (necessarily) mean to spark a yacht-design revolution when he launched the catamaran Amaryllis in 1875, but that's exactly what happened&#8230;eventually. Students of history will remember that Amaryllis was promptly banned from organized racing, mostly because she whipped the monohulls. Still, word spread: catamarans were lightning fast and sailed flat. They also offered other advantages compared to monohulls, like a lot of deck space. Unfortunately, popular opinion exerted its usual pressure on owners, designers and builders, and high-performance cruising catamarans were back-burnered until the 1960s.

"The first [modern] catamarans to emerge came from racing," says Marc Van Peteghem, of the famed French design firm VPLP, which has designed some of the world's fastest multihulls. "The provenance of high-performance multihull cruising goes a long way back. It was the American designer Dick Newick who started this evolution. His concept was about simplicity and lightness. The forms were very organic, and the profiles were very low. In many ways, they were highly revolutionary given the limitations in materials and knowledge at the time."

A Sig 45 shows a burst of speed off the California coast 
Newick's now-iconic designs attracted cruisers who embraced the ethos of simplicity, lightweight design and construction and craved high daily mileage runs. These forward-thinking cruisers weren't interested in conforming to sailing's monohull-centric status quo, for Newick's chosen hull form was the trimaran, and his go-to construction methods involved cold-molded wooden laminate hulls (although his designs were typically sold as lines plans). Few Newick designs graced the mooring field in front of the New York Yacht Club's outpost facility at Harbor Court, in blueblood Newport, Rhode Island, but plenty of his boats reeled off impressively quick offshore passages, delighting their owners and forging a legend amongst serious bluewater sailors.

Other performance-oriented cruising multihulls emerged during the 1980s and 1990s and found their way Stateside, most notably boats from the French builders Catana and Outremer. The brilliant South Dartmouth, Massachusetts-based designer Chris White also began turning heads with his innovative line of Atlantic catamarans, whose layout configurations featured a forward working cockpit paired with an aft pilothouse. What set these cats apart from more sedate cruising designs were features like high bridgedeck clearance, low superstructures, narrow hulls and lightweight composite construction. Spurred on by advances in racing multihull design and build, concepts like composite construction, wing masts, and eventually carbon-fiber spars began to find their way onto cruising multihulls.

The Nautitech 442 proves you don't need daggerboards to enjoy fast passage times 
Also around this time, designer Ian Farrier started making international sailing headlines with his Corsair line of folding-ama trimarans, including the F-22 and the now-iconic F-27 (a 2004 inductee into the Sailboat Hall of Fame). These boats made fast sailing accessible to huge numbers of sailors, many of whom grew up sailing Hobie 16s off of their local beach and now wanted a cruising multihull that could offer comfortable (enough) accommodations while also delivering high-speed thrills and the convenience of a trailer. Still, most mainstream sailors remained reluctant to accept this new fast-cruising paradigm and multihulls largely remained the province of tubby charter boats or all-out racers. Then, in late 1999, Peter Johnstone-of the Johnstone sailing family-set out to find an alternative to his 70-foot cruising monohull. Johnstone wanted something fast and comfortable that also provided the sort of performance he had grown accustomed to on high-performance maxi catamarans such as Playstation and Team Adventure. Johnstone ultimately hired West Coast multihull veterans Morrelli & Melvin to draw plans for a 62-foot high-performance cruising catamaran that would ultimately serve as the prototype for his now famous Gunboat line, and that he would have custom-built at Harvey Yachts. The family then set off for their cruise aboard TRIBE in 2001 and Johnstone quickly realized he was on to something big: a boat with chisel-like bows, daggerboards and a performance-minded design capable of 300- to 400-mile days in cruising mode with a seakindly ride.

In January of 2010 I found myself sitting on the comfortable settee of the Gunboat 66, Sugar Daddy, contemplating owner Bruce Slayden's choice of a Sauvignon Blanc paired with freshly cooked Ahi fish tacos when someone noticed the speed: 21.7 knots, sails sheeted, autopilot driving. I pinched myself: rare is the day when one gets to savor a five-star lunch while sailing north of 20 knots, not a single hair disrupted. But sailing aboard the Slayden's nicely equipped Gunboat in Hawaii's Molokai Channel isn't exactly "everyday" sailing.

A squadron of Gunboats race in the Caribbean

Looking out Sugar Daddy's many cabin windows with almost a 360 degree view I saw the much-feared Molokai Channel was maintaining its reputation, with 25-30 knots of air and eight-foot seas. Yet it was obvious that Sugar Daddy was perfectly balanced, with her big, powerful bows riding the swells as her carbon-fiber daggerboards provided plenty of lift. Having sailed aboard a great deal of fast monohulls-including Volvo Open 70s and 100-foot super-maxis-I was gob-smacked that 20-plus knots could feel so smooth and so civilized, but a quick look at Bruce revealed that we were only now beginning to see Sugar Daddy's true magic. Bruce would know: he and his wife, Nora, and their crew managed to rack up a 70,000-plus miles aboard three different Gunboats. "I used to really miss our house when we were sailing," says Nora. "Now it's the other way around."

The Outremer 5X shows off its slim hulls, powerful rig and plumb bows

Sailing through the Molokai Channel, Johnstone's vision of a high-performance cruising catamaran suddenly made sense. If we'd been out in similar conditions aboard my dad's J/44, PFDs and safety tethers-not freshly caught Ahi-would have been the program, along with salty faces and mandatory foul-weather gear.

Lightweight construction is a hallmark of the MC²60 
"The performance category of larger cruising multihulls didn't exist when we started Gunboat," says Johnstone. "No one thought a cruising multihull could go upwind, yet we paced the Volvo 70s with a Gunboat 66 at a recent Cape Town Volvo Ocean Race stopover. We traded tacks for 10 miles-we were a little quicker and slightly lower." Impressive work, considering that Volvo Open 70s are the fastest (and most uncomfortable) monohulls afloat and are crewed by full crews of grizzled professionals-a far cry from Sugar Daddy.

These days, yacht manufacturers are building more high-performance cruising catamarans, each offering a different blend of performance and cruising characteristics achieved through the use of new materials, creative weight allocation and improved daggerboard design coupled with a focus on onboard amenities. The goal is speed, performance and offshore comfort, both in the strong stuff and, more importantly, in whispering airs that park-up monohulls. "A good performance catamaran can sail 1.2 to 1.5 times faster than windspeed in some conditions, meaning less time motoring and more time sailing," says Greg Young, designer of the TAG 60.

"It's been suggested that boat owners can choose two of the following three: speed, comfort or low cost," says Hugo Le Breton, the founder of Le Breton Yachts, builders of the SIG line of high-performance cruising cats. "You can't have a fast, comfortable, inexpensive boat." While cost is obviously important, Van Peteghem stresses that weight is the true key to performance. "The lighter a boat is, the greater the performance," he says. "Another way of expressing this is that the high-performance catamaran finds the optimal path between comfort, performance and cost-while stressing performance." Because of this, today's performance-oriented cruising catamarans have embraced composite construction (hulls, daggerboards, spars and standing rigging), sophisticated designs, highly adaptable sail plans and an ethos that "light is right."

The Neel 45 represents the cutting edge in performance cruising trimaran design

While everyone agrees that carbon fiber is far superior to traditional fiberglass, cost can't be ignored. "You get a lot more performance for the dollar by building longer, leaner hulls with less costly materials," says Phil Berman, president of Balance Catamarans. "I prefer using foam cores, pre-preg epoxy bulkheads, vinylester or epoxy resins and E-glass with a gelcoat finish if the effort is to hold down costs." Berman isn't alone in his use of fiberglass. "You don't need to go full-carbon to get a lightweight boat," says Raphael Blot, who has teamed up with Australian builder McConaghy to build the MC²60 (Blot owns the first MC²60). "Proof being, we're slightly above nine tons, while some 60-foot carbon cats are over 15 tons." The critical bit, says Blot, is to use carbon where it yields the biggest returns, while also focusing on asymmetrical-shaped daggerboards that are situated midships in each hull so as to achieve the right balance and hull trim.

The plumb bows and narrow hulls on this Catana 59 are all business

Though all multihulls have the potential to get scary when sailing deep true-wind angles, sailing to weather isn't easy for a boat with two hulls and no keel. Plenty of charterers have grown frustrated while trying to point high on their "condomarans," but performance-minded catamarans employ either daggerboards or centerboards to combat this. "Daggerboards are necessary for pointing at good angles on any performance cat," says Young, who uses asymmetrically shaped boards on his Young 65. "By angling the boards 10 degrees, we also introduce an extra lift component as well as minimizing any negative impact with the interior." Young has minimized the threat of a capsize by using an interesting blend of technology. TAG yachts has developed an incredible safety system that uses rig load-cells and a heel-angle function that automatically eases the sheets before the vessel gets to any critical or unsafe point.

Daggerboards also help the vessel on other points of sail and in rough weather. "What's often lost on consumers is that a daggerboarded cat is way faster off the wind than a non-daggerboard catamaran because you reduce drag enormously when the boards are lifted," says Berman. According to Johnstone, the ability to lift and lower boards improves offshore safety. "When it gets really nasty over 60 knots, and seas are confused and violent, the safest strategy is to run downwind fast with your centerboards or daggerboards fully up," Johnstone says. "When you get pasted from the side by a breaking wave, the cat will simply surf sideways and dissipate the wave's impact energy."

An Atlantic 57 makes speed look easy in a stiff breeze

Onboard comfort is the final major design consideration. While ocean-racing fanatics might gravitate toward minimal accommodation plans, most sane minds prefer some comfort. "There's no longer an obligation to have a Spartan boat to have a performance boat," says Xavier Desmarest of Outremer Catamarans. "All our boats are designed and built to offer the same comfort that you have at home." Given that most performance-minded catamarans are built on a custom or semi-custom basis, new-build owners get the pleasure of deciding what comforts are of priority on the high seas.

As adventurous as a sub-four-day transatlantic passage sounds, anyone could get used to night watches spent at warm, dry helm stations. Yet modern technology helps reduce weight here, too. "If 'sacrifice' means bringing an iPod rather than a CD library, a Kindle rather than books, and simply leaving a few non-essential things at home, our clients feel it is worth it," says Le Breton.

The America's Cup has long served as an important idea laboratory for performance-sailing design, with applicable technology trickling down to the custom and production markets. Historically, little of this has crossed over to the multihull crowd, but the 34th America's Cup, with its 72-foot wing-sailed catamarans and hydrofoils, may prove to be the exception. "The main trickle-down we will see from the America's Cup is in advanced construction materials and technologies, a better understanding of apparent-wind sailing dynamics and hopefully better velocity prediction programs," says Young. Others agree. "There's a lot to be learned about the trade-offs between low-drag hull shapes and volume forward, and about rudder shapes," says Le Breton.

When queried if wing-sail technology could ever enter the high-performance cruising catamaran market, Le Breton's advice is to "never say never," while Young talks about a solid reefable wing-sail he's been developing. Though there's little danger of a cruising couple breaking Banque Populaire V's transatlantic record on a cruising multihull anytime soon, there's an excellent chance that the next generation of performance-minded multihulls will benefit from refined shapes (hulls, foils and sails), advanced composite materials and better design-related programs.

It only took a "quick" 138 years, but high-performance catamarans have now reached sailing's mainstream-from the America's Cup to your local yacht club. Today, Herreshoff's Amaryllis commands a lofty perch in the canon of multihull designs, Newick designs are iconic, and serious cruisers of all stripes understand that a second hull can make life pretty sweet.

Based in Seattle, Washington,
David Schmidt is a former
SAIL senior editor


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## PCP

*Monohulls versus Multihulls*

Sure multihulls are great and I talked here about all the multihulls that are mentioned on that article and much more but they have some big disadvantages:

The first big one is the price: For having an offshore capable multihull able for crossing oceans with a big safety margin you need a big one, like the ones that are mentioned. The same level of seaworthiness can be obtained with a much smaller monohull. Besides size for size a multihull is substantially more expensive.

The second disadvantage are costs of maintenance and marina: Multihulls pay more 50 to 100% on the marinas or on the hard and the cost of hauling out is superior also. Today with the costs of marinas, that's a lot of money.

The third is that a multihull in bad weather is more uncomfortable that a sailing boat of the same size.

The fourth is that a monohul has a better performance upwind. The difference would not be very big regarding a multihull with movable lateral foils but on most cruising cats that's a very big difference, specially if we consider a performance cruiser. The biggest difference regarding a monohull will be downwind sailing, but only if the multihull is a light one and not a Lagoon type that are by far the more abundant and the less expensive. Performance multihulls, like the ones that are referred on that article are much more expensive than the lagoon type.

Regarding comparative performance you can have a look at the ARC:

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

This year there was lots of cats and you can see they are not doing better than similarly sized monohulls and that's an unfair comparison because price for price you would have a much bigger monohull that would not cost more to you in marina and maintenance costs.

That's true that this year was not properly a normal one in what regards trade winds, that have not been constant, but that's what I am saying: For sailing on the trade winds they are great, for being also a good one upwind, only some very special and expensive ones and even so there are some of those on the transat and the performance has not been great.

Take as example the Gunboat 62 that was beaten by a Marten 49, an Ocean Explorer 60 that was beaten by a X50 and an Oyster 655, a Catana 58 that are been beaten by the X50, by a Grand Soleil 56, a Discovery 55, a Gunfleet 58, a Oyster 48 and a Pogo 12.50. These multihulls are the fastest of the fleet and are fast cats. There are many more behind, some really big ones.

Now, don't take me wrong, if I could afford a 50ft trimaran, or even a 40ft one with retractile amas, not to pay a fortune on the marina and to have a decent interior space, probably I would have one but the only one on the market is an old and relatively slow one (a Dragonfly). The 35 Dragonfly would suit me fine if they upgraded it to 40ft, but the 35ft costs already around 450 000 euros. I wonder how much would cost a 40ft? Maybe 600 000? With that kind of money you can buy a Pogo 50 or any other very fast 50ft monohull and still have money left to enjoy cruising.

In fact most cats you see around are slow cruising cats that are not faster than a performance cruiser of the same size, quite the opposite and even those are a lot more expensive than performance cruisers, size by size. Of course they offer a much bigger interior space, but then we are not talking about performance but about living comfort and interior space.

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster

I guess you KNOW you've 'arrived' when you can have space for a recessed tender on the foredeck!


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## PCP

Faster said:


> I guess you KNOW you've 'arrived' when you can have space for a recessed tender on the foredeck!


These boats have huge tenders but with an insignificant weight regarding the yacht. What I see is that most of the time, when cruising they are towing the tender. Only on passage they put the tender up so much of the time the space is useful as a place to sun tan. Anyway it is a nice solution in what regards space polyvalence. The other solution is a tender garage but that not only limits storage space as also limits the size of the tender.

Regards

Paulo


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## DiasDePlaya

Chris White desing Atlantic 47 with foil masts, built by Alwoplast in the Chilean south.






Best Boat 2014 Sail magazine.

SAIL's Best Boats 2014: Atlantic 47 | Sail Magazine


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## DiasDePlaya

First Voyage

The A47 named Pounce was completed by Alwoplast in Valdivia, Chile in early June 2013. I was there along with the owners Thom and Francine Dozier and their crew for the commissioning. After commissioning they planned to sail north to Thom's home on the Chesapeake Bay. The timing was right and I asked if I could join Pounce for the first s egment of their long sail toward Panama. Thom was happy to add me to the ranks of his all star crew of Mike, Ann and Larry. Francine would sign on in Florida for the final leg to the Chesapeake.

Owner Thom Dozier has an extensive history sailing and racing beach cats, he then moved on to larger cruising boats. Mike was a commanding officer in the USCG for many years and now runs a marine engine business. Ann is a critical care nurse and superlative cook and Larry is the onboard electronics/computer geek. In total there were skills aboard to solve just about any problem and I was very pleased to have the chance to sail with them.

June is late autumn in the southern hemisphere and the weather in Valdivia was not good for anything but ducks and mushrooms. Near constant rain from a series of deep lows coming into Patagonia from the southern ocean slowed the final preparations on the boat. Moreover, the Chilean Navy had all the southern ports including Valdivia closed due to seas offshore of 10 meters (33') and strong Northerly winds so waiting was the only option.

Pounce's crew departing Alwoplast Marine
Finally boat projects were wrapped up and a weather break came. This promised to be several days of either light or favorable winds before the next low pressure system slammed into the Andes. From Valdivia you need to sail about 500 miles north to get into a more benign climate where the southerly winds stabilize around a largely stationary high pressure system west of Valparaiso. Once into the high pressure area the winds may be strong but they will be from behind and there is little risk of severe weather. So the safe way to play the departure in the off season is to get north as fast as possible, motoring if necessary, to get beyond the reach of storms.

At mid day we motored Pounce out of the river under low overcast and misting rain. An ebb tide and Pounce's 9 knot motoring speed made relatively short work of the 8 miles to open water. Corral Harbor at the mouth of the river was sloppy going with wind and swell against the outgoing tide. Once clear of the river the seas became more regular and we were able to motor sail on course against a light northwesterly breeze until the wind fizzled out completely.

Several hours later the weather started to improve and we could see some red sky beneath the clouds to the west as the sun set. After 12 straight days of rain this was a pleasant sight! The Navy forecast had predicted light headwinds for the first day then shifting to the SW and increasing. Along with the wind increase there was a large SW swell from the series of recent storms and that swell was forecast to grow. We motored through the night making good progress. By midnight we were passing Isla Mocha and the wind had started to shift to the WSW although it was still too light to sail. Intermittent light rain, cold water temperatures and fog made the pilothouse, with the heat running, the place to be and all watches were stood in comfort.

Pounce leaving Valdivia on a grey day
By mid morning the second day there was finally a sailing breeze . We unrolled the two sails and trimmed the mast foils and shut off the engines. The quiet is always such a relief after a day of motoring! Our course was deep off the wind so the sailing was not particularly exciting but we had knocked out 200 miles in the first 24 hours and transited to the edge of the high pressure system where the weather would only improve. The sun did appear after it burned off the fog and we had a beautiful sailing afternoon. The swell was building in height although being long period it did not cause any discomfort. The larger wave sets were over 15' high which was more or less consistent with the Navy forecast.

During the day the wind built and our course changed from NNW to NNE as we rounded Punta Lavapie.

For the first hours we sailed Pounce downwind under a wing and wing configuration. When on a run there isn't much difference in speed made good between wing and wing or gybing downwind so we experimented with both. Depending on the wave train(s) often one method is more comfortable than the other and you really just need to try each to see what works best. Wing and wing worked well, although the fore sail is more stable when it's boomed out toward the windward side otherwise it catches the turbulence from the mizzen. There still was not a lot of wind, not enough to enable surfing any of the swells, and we were making 6-7 knots. Both mastfoils were trimmed square to the wind, which seemed the be the right thing to do on a run.

As the day progressed the wind slowly increased. We gybed to port on a deep reach and vanged both sails forward with the foils rotated so that the leeward telltales were streaming. True wind was getting up to 15 kts, the sea still flat with a long large swell. Pounce liked this and would occasionally catch a wave surfing into the low teens.

Gybing the mastfoil rig is a piece of cake. The sheets are pulled in most of the way, course changed, sails come over, then sheets eased and vangs snugged. Self tacking jibs don't slam over the way a large roached mainsail does so the whole exercise is a very low stress event, even in big winds. If it's really blowing hard you can always control the jib boom with the vang/preventer and ease it over slowly but that does not seem to be necessary in winds under 30-35 kts. The foils can be ignored until you are ready to re-trim them. The foil trimming loads are low in the conditions I have seen to date and it takes little effort to position the foils wherever they need to be.

At this point sailing conditions were still light to moderate but I was pleasantly surprised and very happy about how absolutely quiet the mastfoil rig is. The conventional catamaran rig, even sailing in light conditions, tends to make lots of squeaks, bangs and other noises as the boat rolls in the swell. The enormous forces on sheet and vang used to keep the mainsail leech under control (and off the leeward shrouds) stretch and contract the lines on every wave, groaning in rope clutches, squeaking over blocks and winches in addition to the occasional loud crack/snap of upper mainsail battens as the sail snap fills with wind and empties as the boat rolls. In contrast Pounce's MastFoil rig was dead silent. Not a peep! Maybe this sounds like a trivial point but I don't think it is; quiet is comfort. And at the very least those noises are usually signs of excessive wear on sheets, blocks and sails.

Sunset the second day brought happy hour and a peaceful sit down dinner expertly prepared by Ann. Then another 14 hour long night commenced. All the while the wind was slowly building so that by 8pm it was time to roll up some sail. Pounce was frequently feeling her oats and taking off on a swell, surfing along into the high teens. Catching waves is usually fun, particularly during daylight for the people awake. It is not as much fun in the dark especially for crew off watch trying to rest. So I had the honor of stepping out into the cockpit to ease off the mizzen outhaul while my right index finger pushed the furler button to roll up about half of the sail. I doubt if this took 20 seconds. Then back inside where it was warm!

On watch again in the wee hours, sitting with Thom in the pilothouse, and the wind and waves increased another notch. Pounce was once again frequently catching waves for long surfing rides. Each time the water noise changed from hiss to roar as her speed increased from 9 to 20+knots. Okay, time to ratchet back again in the name of comfort. The mizzen foil was trimmed square to the wind so that was an obvious choice for "reefing". Once again I stepped into the cockpit, put the winch handle in the mastfoil rotation control, released the lock and turned the foil (it actually turned itself) into the wind. At that point the foil essentially disappears as far as the wind is concerned as its streamlined shape has extremely little drag. Thom and I both wondered how much difference that would make as we resumed our comfortable watch keeping seats. Our "sail" reduction was quite significant, cutting Pounce's speed enough so that the surfing was greatly diminished. Not really a surprise, but satisfying to see how quickly the sail area can be changed both up and down by trimming the foils. I don't think it took more than 5 seconds to adjust the mizzen foil.

The next morning was once again cold and foggy damp with a thick overcast marine layer. Wind was 25 to 30 kts, still way behind us, with a sizable swell. The day before standing on the house top the swell would break the horizon. My eye height standing there is almost 15' above the waterline so the swell was somewhat taller than that. This morning I suspect the larger waves were close to 20'. Of course waves, even large ones, never look like much in photos but in real life some of them were starting to look pretty impressive coming up astern. The autopilot handled all of this in stride, even the fast surfing. Occasionally we'd get smacked on the quarter by a breaking wave top which would start to slew the boat around but she never went very far before the autopilot had her back on course.

Pounce departed Valdivia fully provisioned and ready to sail non-stop the 3000 miles to Panama. Having me sign on at the last minute required a little change in plans because I needed to get back to business and could only stay for a few days. There are only a few harbors along the bold coast of Chile and now it was time to gybe over in order to intersect the coast so I could get off.

We were about 100 miles offshore when we gybed to starboard. Still on a deep reach but with the main swell further behind we had a comfortable ride, making a steady 9 to 10 with occasional surfs higher. The wind gradually decreased and we unrolled all of the mizzen and re-trimmed both foils for speed.

Headed toward the major port of Valapariso we raised the first lights about 10 pm. By midnight we were close into the mountainous coast and the prevailing SW wind was replaced by a light but cold land breeze. We sailed past the resort town of Vina del Mar and rounded up under the point of Higuerillas, just outside of the yacht club breakwater. What looked like a reasonable enough anchorage on the chart felt very exposed. It was also fairly deep and the anchor had only a so-so feel to it when pulled hard. But it was calm and we only would be there until daylight.

After much needed coffee and breakfast we inspected as much of Pounce as we could see. After all it was her first sail of consequence and she was bounced around enough to warrant a good look over. There was some pretty serious chafe on both jib outhaul lines which was caused by a sharp edge on each clew block. That was quickly filed off smooth and should not cause further problems. Also a bit of chafe on one of the foil rotation lines but again there was a hard edge that needed to be smoothed. That's all we could find wrong. A very good check up after a 500 mile long initial sail.

From anchor it was a short motor to the dock where I departed and Pounce resumed her passage northward to the Panama Canal.

In addition to the sailing, spending a few days aboard gave me a chance to see the functionality of the interior layout. The A47 inside is an awful lot like the interior of the A55 and A57. I don't suppose that is a surprise to anyone but to largely match the space and utility of the A57 in a cat 10' shorter is something that people who see the new boat will immediately appreciate.

Forward in the pilothouse there is a fully functional inside steering station to starboard and a nav/comm center to port. Aft starboard, on the galley side, is a dining table adjacent to large opening windows. Aft to port is a sitting area similar to what I have aboard Javelin - still my favorite comfortable seat for a night watch. In total the pilothouse works very well and is a great place to keep watch while sailing or to hang out when anchored.

The main difference in the A47 is the galley which is elevated and more integrated into the pilothouse than the A55/A57 layout. I like the way the A47 galley works and the elimination of 3 steps down and 3 up every time you go into the galley is a nice plus. There is a spectacular view from the galley and that should help anyone prone to motion sickness keep their equilibrium.

The midship cabins are a bit smaller in width than the A55 cabins, though the berths are the same size. Storage space there seems adequate and was helped greatly by 5 stowage lockers that were added after we had a chance to get into the nearly finished boat and figure out where the best locations were.

The heads and showers are just as functional as on the A55/57. They are a little smaller, largely due to the hull beam being less, but have plenty of space. The large inboard lockers that we find so useful on the A55/57 for sheets and towels as well as first aid and toiletry items are also similar and plenty large enough.

The port aft cabin on the A47 is the most versatile and probably the best cabin on the boat. Three of the first four A47's have substantially different layouts in the aft cabin. There is a double bunk layout, a two single bunk layout and a two single bunk plus head layout. Seldom does a boat of this size offer so many alternatives. Pounce has the double berth layout and it looks very comfortable with plenty of storage.

I very much look forward to Pounce arriving into home waters. Thom has expressed his willingness to show his boat to those interested and I expect there will be quite a list. Let me know if you want to be on it.

Chris White


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## robelz

After the Ker-designed Salona 60 there will be the even bigger Ker-designed Salona 67:

Salona Yachts

A nice one but I rather like the S60...

The rig seems to be exactly the same one on both boats (same length, same sqm on every sail).


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## outbound

Saw the A47 at the Annapolis show and she is drop dead gorgeous with every aspect extremely well thought out. Obviously a boat built by sailors for sailing. If I was in the market for a multi it would either be that boat or the Neel.


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## PCP

*Atantic 47/ Catana 47/ Lagoon 450/ Outremer 5X/ Salona 60/ Sense 50-55/ Jeanneau 57*



DiasDePlaya said:


> ....
> 
> The A47 named Pounce was completed by Alwoplast in Valdivia, Chile in early June 2013....







Yes, nice boat. I now that Chris White performance Cats are great but they have a lot of sail and you better pay attention to squalls and freak meteorological phenomena (lots of them in the med). I looked about the bigger sister on the net but could only find this movie and there are not so many around (8?)






Don't take me wrong, for sure they had too much sail out than prudence would recommend, but that's the point, on a performance cat you have to be prudent and pay attention. Not the kind of boat for me, I am not prudent enough and I know it. Maybe a trimaran, they give you a much better advise when you are going out of the reasonable and give you also more time to react. Note that this is only applicable to performance cats, heavier cruising ones with a lot less sail are much more harder to capsize and safer boats.

Saying that it is great that Chris White designs are been produced and with success as I can see.

But I find that even if Chris white knows very well how to design hulls, rigs and a cat under the structural point of view I cannot say the same in what regards other points of design: The boat is not really nice, looks an old design and the interiors are very poor, not in what regards quality, but design. Maybe Chris White should associate himself with somebody with a good grasp on the other design sectors to have a better product.





Alwoplast S.A.

Regarding the boats, there was a lot of talk about Chris white designs to be cheaper to build than other designs and I always found that was just BS. The Atlantic 47 costs US$ 1,170,000 a Catana 47 costs about US$ 800,000 and it has a better designed interior.

The rig of the Atlantic is more interesting but the Catana has foils and should have a better performance upwind. Not that I like the overall shape of the Catana (there is a lot better around) but the interior is at another level in what regards space and design.












There is a lot of choices in what regards buying a cat but the types similar to the Lagoon (slow ones) are the only ones not too expensive. A Lagoon 450 costs US$680,000 and with that you can have a Sense 50 and for just a bit more than that price, but less than the price of the Catana, you can buy a Beneteau Sense 55 or a Jeanneau 57.





















With just a bit more than the price of the Atlantic 47 you can buy a Salona 60 that has much more interior space, it will not cost more at a marina and I doubt will be overall slower, not to mention a nicer sea motion in bad weather.







That's the problem with Multihulls, as I have stated before: The fast ones are expensive.

Finally if I chose a big cat I would clearly prefer the VPLP designed Outremer 5X that, even if bigger (59ft), as a similar price regarding the A47 . I believe the 5X is not slower (quite the contrary) and has a better interior with much more space and looks better. Probably the 5X is the one I like more regarding price/quality/speed/interior space. I really like a lot the 5x....except the price that even not high for the type of boat is way out of my reach.





















Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

outbound said:


> Saw the A47 at the Annapolis show and she is drop dead gorgeous with every aspect extremely well thought out. Obviously a boat built by sailors for sailing. If I was in the market for a multi it would either be that boat or the Neel.


I agree that the Neel makes sense... but it is so ugly. The first time I saw one was back in in 2011, the Neel 50. I was sailing a Salona 41 and was curious about that "monster". I had heard a lot about its performance so I waited for him to see how it compared with the Salona 41 (performance version). and i can tell you that upwind with about 7/8K wind is not a match for the Salona. The pointing ability is quite poor. I believe that downwind with medium to strong wind the Neel 50 would be faster.


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## robelz

France’s Equipe and Voiles-Multihull blogs are sadly reporting that Jean-Pierre Dick’s MOD 70 Paprec-Virbac is up for sale after her nasty capsize before last month’s TJV. It should be the final death knell of a class that now has 7 boats built and at least 3 on the market, with no real buyers at all. A casualty of poor management and communication by the hodgepodge Franco-Suisse bosses as much as a dire economy in parts of Europe, JPD learned what most suspected and the MOD Class discussed before the first boat was ever built: These things really are just too much for shorthanded or singlehanded sailing.

So if you were thinking about picking up one of those ORMA trimarans, or maybe just looking for a record-breaker, and you fancy owning one of the fastest sailboats ever built, it’s a buyer’s market…especially if you have a spare rig lying around. Get your wallets out!


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## PCP

robelz said:


> ... MOD 70 Paprec-Virbac is up for sale ...A casualty of poor management and communication by the hodgepodge Franco-Suisse bosses as much as a dire economy in parts of Europe, JPD learned what most suspected and the MOD Class discussed before the first boat was ever built: These things really are just too much for shorthanded or singlehanded sailing.
> ...


I don't see why do you say that they are just too much for shorthanded orsinglehanded sailing: The two that made the last transat with duo crew had not any problem and Franck Cammas solo sailed a much bigger trimaran on the last route du Rhum and won the race. In fact the smaller boats, the Multi 50 are easier to break and to capsize has the accidents in several races have shown.

Bad economic moment in Europe and shortage of sponsors for expensive machines it seems to be the main reason of the problems with the viability of the M70. Anyway next year we will have the Route du Rhum and I bet that several of them will be sailed solo on that transat.

Regards

Paulo


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## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Atantic 47/ Catana 47/ Lagoon 450/ Outremer 5X/ Salona 60/ Sense 50-55/ Jeanneau*



PCP said:


> Yes, nice boat. I now that Chris White performance Cats are great but they have a lot of sail and you better pay attention to squalls and freak meteorological phenomena (lots of them in the med). I looked about the bigger sister on the net but could only find this movie and there are not so many around (8?)
> 
> Don't take me wrong, for sure they had too much sail out than prudence would recommend, but that's the point, on a performance cat you have to be prudent and pay attention. Not the kind of boat for me, I am not prudent enough and I know it. Maybe a trimaran, they give you a much better advise when you are going out of the reasonable and give you also more time to react. Note that this is only applicable to performance cats, heavier cruising ones with a lot less sail are much more harder to capsize and safer boats.
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Don't worry for this, now you can install an automatic sheet release system.


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## PCP

*Re: Atantic 47/ Catana 47/ Lagoon 450/ Outremer 5X/ Salona 60/ Sense 50-55/ Jeanneau*



DiasDePlaya said:


> Don't worry for this, now you can install an automatic sheet release system.


They have them on the racing offshore multihulls.....but that does not prevent them to capsize...at leas always.

edit: it seems that I am saying that fast multihulls are dangerous and that is not what I wanted to say. No, they demand an experienced skipper and prudence in what regards the amount of sail carried in bad weather or unstable conditions like squalls, but they are obviously more tricky to sail than a comparably fast mono-hull, that typically will be a slightly bigger and a performance cruiser.

Regards

Paulo


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## DiasDePlaya

Paulo, Is true that a fast boat is dangerous than a slow boat, like cars, motorcycles, airplanes, trains... Always an inexpert skipper can do all bad and has a capsize, then is better that those people just sail in slow boats, mono or multi hulls.


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## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> Paulo, Is true that a fast boat is dangerous than a slow boat, like cars, motorcycles, airplanes, trains... Always an inexpert skipper can do all bad and has a capsize, then is better that those people just sail in slow boats, mono or multi hulls.


There is a difference, in a mono-hull an inexperienced skipper can broach and even get knocked out but but if it is a decent boat he would not get capsized. A good monohull even fast is about as fool prof as it can be. It will be necessary a breaking wave of a considerable size to capsize the boat. On a multihull all is needed is a lot of wind and an inexperienced sailor. Even experienced ones sometimes got it wrong even if very rarely.

A fast multihull demands a more experienced sailor to be sailed safely than a fast monohull and also more care and attention from an experienced skipper.

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound

Paulo- you make a great point. A monohull will just heel more and dump air off the tops of the sails before it reaches the point of vanishing stability. Whereas a multi won't and is just as stable upside down. Similarly it takes a bunch to pitchpole a mono. However, have had opportunity to blue water sail a tri. Boy is it a kick. And for day sailing it don't take much air to get a good multi going and the smiles to appear. I made the same decision as you for day to day cruising unless you're always going to be in shoal waters a mono makes more sense for folks like us. You talk about voyaging. It's interesting to see how many prior monohull voyagers make the switch to multihulls. They must have something going for them. The ability to stay afloat for one and fast passages for another. Whole new learning curve and I'm an old dog.


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## PCP

*Monohull versus Multihull*



outbound said:


> Paulo- ... I made the same decision as you for day to day cruising unless you're always going to be in shoal waters a mono makes more sense for folks like us. You talk about voyaging. It's interesting to see how many prior monohull voyagers make the switch to multihulls. They must have something going for them. The ability to stay afloat for one and fast passages for another. Whole new learning curve and I'm an old dog.


Out, I think you did not really understood me. Probably if I had the money for it I would be cruising on a trimaran. For me the Dragonfly 35 would be enough, not to my wife and I would need a bigger one that does not even exist (it exists a Dragonfly 40 but its is old and slow). The new 40 will be probably the next boat on the Dragonfly line. The 35 costs already about as much as your boat so you can imagine how much would cost a 40. That is really why I sail the type of boat I have, a fast 41ft performance cruiser...lack of money and the boat that suits me more regarding my budget.






I mean, the Dragonfly for the type of sailing I do: Coastal cruising with a lot of passages in between in the 4 best months of the year, because if I cruised extensively and lived in the boat permanently I would have an Outremer 5X, assuming I would have the money for it. For living all the time in the boat all that space would be more then welcomed and having a 59ft has fast as a 70ft fast monohull would be irresistible. I guess that I would have to learn hoe to sail conservatively, going at 16K when I could go at 20

Off course, all that I have said previously is true but all is relative and many circumnavigated on Outremer without any problem even if I know at least of one (45ft) that had capsized.

Fact is that big multihuls like the Outremer 5X have in what regards bad weather advantages and disadvantages: They are more uncomfortable in bad weather, they can capsize if too much sail is used but without any sail or just a tiny amount of sail they are much more dificult to capsize than any monohull of the same size or even bigger. They would need a breaking wave twice as bigger (or something like that) than the one that would capsize a monohull of the same size. of course, after being turtle they have the big disadvantage of not getting back to their feet again.

Things are what they are, advantages and disadvantages. The biggest multihull disadvantage for me is their price (fast ones) and the superior price of marinas and maintenance.

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound

Then if you can try to get a peak at the Chris white boat and save your pennies. What are you sailing now? Took at brief look at prices. The Danish boat is less money new. Have you sailed the farrier boats. Close friend is a dealer.they're a hoot for coastal sailing. Maybe you could put one in your garage and splash it when you need some jollies. Personally still all smiles with my boat. Don't see a multi in my future. Get old and totally decrepit be on a norhaven.


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## PCP

*ARC - Oyster 655*

The next boat to arrive was the first 40ft, a racing Pogo 40class racer (9th), not very well sailed, I would say.

Last year the the 1st to arrive was a 40class racer, Vaquita, that beat a brand new Swan 80 with a big racing crew. The guys from Vaquita are great sailors and this year they moved to play on the big league. They made the Transat Jaque Vabre on class 40, making 8th out of 23 boats but even so finishing at one day and a half from the first (yes there are incredibly good sailors doing that race).

Six hours later arrived a boat that made an amazing transat, a Oyster 655 (11th), a medium weight very comfortable cruiser. They made almost the same time as the boat that arrived on its tail, very close, a X50, a smaller performance cruiser. That's true that the Marten 49 (performance cruiser) had arrived already at 17 hours but it is a remarkable performance for a medium weight boat and shows why the Oyster are today the paradigm of modern big comfortable production bluewater cruisers.

The 655 is a recent boat (2008) even if it has already been substituted on the Oyster line by the 665 that is in fact a MkII using the same hull.

*"The Oyster 655, designed by Rob Humphreys, is a member of the new g5 generation of cutting edge Oysters, utilising carbon fibre and Kevlar to keep weight to a minimum.The 655 has been designed to cruise the world's oceans in comfort and style with an emphasis on performance. "*

Regarding the Performance of the Oyster 655 on the race it is enough to say that had beaten by 11 hours the second big cat, an Explorer 60, a relatively fast cat of almost the same size.

The photos are from the 655 Acheron, the one that made the transat:











We associate this type of boats with very rich people that hire a racing crew for sailing their yacht. This is not the case. They certainly have a great crew but the skipper is the owner (a hell of a sailor) and they use the boat for charter. They seem to be very nice people and if someone is thinking in going sailing on a big boat on vacations, well, I guess that this one is not a bad choice, at least they know how to sail the boat properly

*"Brendan and Lois are a professional couple with a love for the ocean and of sailing...
Brendan grew up on the east coast of Australia and has sailed all of his life with his family. He moved to the UK to pursue a professional career in yachting and in 2009 was the skipper of Spirit of Australia in The Clipper Round The World Yacht Race. The race circumnavigated the world and his yacht was the winning boat arriving back into the UK in 2010.

Brendan is also an RYA Yachtmaster instructor and is in his element teaching guests how to sail this beautiful yacht. He also loves to waterski, kitesurf and dive. ...

Lois and Brendan met sailing on the waters of the UK in 2008. Lois has been a chef on board luxury charter yachts in Thailand, the Meditteranean and the Carribean with Brendan. She grew up in a fishing village on the Dorset coast of the UK and spent her childhood in or on the water. She loves to kitesurf, windsurf, surf and any other activity that involves being on the ocean.

Lois comes from a medical career but transitioned to life on the ocean wave with Brendan in 2010. She trained at Ashburton Cookery School in Devon. Lois cooks fresh and delicious healthy meals....Together, Brendan and Lois are the perfect hosts for your sailing holiday on board Acheron."*

Oyster Marine | Charter | Acheron | Overview

Well, it seems very appealing to me


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## PCP

outbound said:


> Then if you can try to get a peak at the Chris white boat and save your pennies.


That one I don't understand. How a 47ft (Atlantic) cat that costs practically the price of a 59ft (Outremer) faster cat with the double of the interior space will save me anything? Anyway I have no money for any of them nor they are adapted to the type of sailing I do. For Voyaging and living extensively aboard I would be much more interested on the Outremer: Faster, nicer, with a lot more interior space with a better design and costing almost the same.



outbound said:


> Took at brief look at prices. The Danish boat is less money new.


I guess you looked here:

2013 Dragonfly 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

*2013 - Dragonfly 35 US$ 376,504*

But I don't get it. That should be an absolutely naked boat and it is not the performance version I was talking about.

Look at the price of a *4 year old 35 Dragonfly* on the US: *USD 350,000*

Lest time I checked the boat new and equipped went for something like 450000 euros.



outbound said:


> Have you sailed the farrier boats. Close friend is a dealer.they're a hoot for coastal sailing. Maybe you could put one in your garage and splash it when you need some jollies.


Dealer? The Farrier are production boats? Or are you talking about the Corsair?

No, the Corsair has not the same kind of finish, interior comfort and cruising potential the Dragonfly has and as I have said I do not want a boat to day sail. I cruise and live on the boat for 4 months a year and make several thousands of miles each year. My wife would not do it on a boat with the interior space of the Dragonfly 35. The type is okay and she likes the speed but I would need a 40 or 50ft trimaran for the interior space she needs to feel comfortable. A 50ft would have about the same interior space of the boat I have now. If the Dragonfly 35 costs that price, we would be talking probably of a boat costing a lot more than 1 million euros. That is completely out of question.



outbound said:


> Personally still all smiles with my boat. Don't see a multi in my future. Get old and totally decrepit be on a norhaven.


I am satisfied with what I sail. It is among the best I can afford and maintain for the life and sailing style we like. When I am old and decrepit I would change for a boat the same type as yours but with electric winches and computerized docking system 



outbound said:


> What are you sailing now?


I have replied to that question a lot of times on this forum

One of these:

Yachts and Yachting Magazine ? Expert Sailing Techniques for Dinghies, Keelboats and Cruiser Racers, Bob Fisher's America's Cup Blog - Comet 41s Review

Comaryachts

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Oyster 665 / Salona 67*

Robelz talked already here about the Salona 67. Since we are talking about Oysters, particularly about the 655/665 that's a good time to post about the big Salona.







The boat is pointed to the same high-end market, for the ones that want a similar type of boat but a faster one. As usually when we talk about Salona we are talking about performance cruisers. Even if the modern oyster have already a very good performance (nothing to do with the same type of boat from 20 years ago) and promote themselves as performance cruisers, we are talking of something a bit different:

The Oyster 665 weights 39,000 kgs and carries upwind (with 150% genoa) 262.9m2, the Salona 67 weights 28 000 kgs and carrie upwind (with a 110% genoa) 240m2. The beam is very similar being the Oyster slightly more beamy. The Draft of the Oyster is 2.95m, the one from Salona 2,50/3,30 m with a lifting keel or 3.50m with a fixed keel. That's what I mean regarding the Salona 67 to be a performance boat regarding the Oyster





The Layout is similar in what regards the saloon, and share some similitudes in the forward crew area but very different in what regards the rest, with the Salona offering a big tender garage but nothing with the king size Oyster's owner's cabin, I would say room:



The reason both boats have some similitude in what regards that deck saloon look has to do with the possibility of offering this kind of saloon space and light (oyster 665):







The Oyster 655 was designed by Rob Humphreys (as the other modern Oysters) and the Salona 67 designed by Ker,one of the best designers of racing boats and performance cruisers that makes here is debut designing a big Yacht. The Hull of the 655 has already some years (it is the same of the 655) and the Salona one is more modern and even if narrow in what regards max. beam has it more pulled back, resulting in a largert transom that is used for that tender garage.

I am a bit worried with Salona, the two new hulls in several years (all the other boats are MKII using previous hulls) are a 60ft and a 67ft. Last year I had talked with one of the top men from Salona regarding new models asking him if they would make a new 45ft or a 50ft, to replace the one that has more years (the 44) and he told me that they would make a bigger boat that turned out to be the 67. When I asked why he told me that there was more money on big boats: With only one boat their profit would be the same as with many smaller boats and with the market like that it was the way to go.

I hope that they don't finish with the sailboats in their line, as other brands have done, like Oyster for example, doing only Yachts


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## PCP

*The original Yachts had already a bath tube bow.*

Take a look:



I thought in my ignorance that Yacht word had an English origin and that yachting was born in England. I was wrong. It turns out that Yacht comes from Jacht. That's a Dutch word that means hunter and that's what they began to be: Very fast Navy Dutch boats to hunt pirates and transgressors on the shallow waters of Holland.





The full story:

*"Yacht, from Dutch/Low German jacht meaning hunting or hunt, .. was originally defined as a light, fast sailing vessel used by the Dutch navy to pursue pirates and other transgressors around and into the shallow waters of the Low Countries.

They were also used for non-military governmental roles such as customs duties and delivering pilots to waiting ships. The latter use attracted the attention of wealthy Dutch merchants who began to build private yachts so they could be taken out to greet their returning ships.

Soon wealthy individuals began to use their "jachts" for pleasure trips. By the start of the 17th century "jachts" came in two broad categories-speel-jachts for sport and oorlog-jachts for naval duties.

By the middle of the century large "jacht" fleets were found around the Dutch coast and the Dutch states organised large 'reviews' of private and war yachts for special occasions, thus putting in place the groundwork for the modern sport of yachting. 
..
Charles II of England spent part of his time in exile during the period of the Commonwealth of England in the Netherlands and became keen on sailing. He returned to England in 1660 aboard a Dutch yacht. During his reign Charles commissioned 24 Royal Yachts on top of the two presented to him by Dutch states on his restoration.

As the fashion for yachting spread throughout the English aristocracy, yacht races began to become common. Other rich individuals in Europe built yachts as the sport spread. Yachting therefore became a purely recreational form of sailing with no commercial or military function (see, for example, the Cox & King yachts at the beginning of the 20th Century), which still serves a broad definition of both the sport and of the vessel."*

Back to the bathtube bow, even before those yachts, the Portuguese, between the XV and XVI century gradually changed the shape of the Caravela bow from its original shape, that comes from the Mediterranean tradition through the Arabs, from its more conventional shape to a bathtube bow shape. Many years ago I had read on an ancient treaty that the Caravela Bow should be well rounded to give a better ship and at the time I found that really odd. Well, not now







The posterior man of war and cargo ship, the Galeão (XVI and XVII centuries) also featured an even more pronounced bath tube bow:





Back to the word Yacht, it seems to be changing again of meaning. On the 50's and 60's yacht was a pleasure boat of some dimension, but a 40ft boat was already called a yacht, a small yacht but a yacht nonetheless. Now, at least in Europe, if someone is referring to his boat as a yacht and the boat has not more than 60ft, he is being pompous. The denomination of yacht seems to have been reserved now for large pleasure motorboats or sailing boats. Smaller ones are just called as sailing boats or motor boats.


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## PCP

*Oyster 745*

Just a last post about Oysters regarding the last model, the 745 that shows clearly the direction in what regards the Hull evolution. Compared with the 655 it has the beam more brought aft, a more modern and efficient keel and a two rudder setup. Like the 665, it is a Rob Humphryes design. Very nice design in my opinion:


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## PCP

*ARC - Explorer 60*

After the Oyster 655 and the X 50. 12 hours after the X Yacht arrived the second cat, a brand new German Frers designed Ocean Explorer 60






I cannot say I like the design. Look a bit "fat" to.


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## PCP

*ARC - Grand Soleil 56*

and only two hours later comes a GS 56, a beautiful performance cruiser that was substituted recently by the 54 on the GS line. Much nicer than that ugly cat, smaller and almost as fast



a post from the guys on that Grand Soleil:

*"A quiet final night with no dramas.More quality time spent in the stern sauna with our ever present companion, Betty Swollocks, the crew member who I for one will most certainly not miss.

So, finally across the line at roughly 08:26:37 this morning, which works out at around 30 minutes short of 16 days from the start in Gran Canaria. Including the race yachts we are 13th of the 250+ starters, and depending on the handicapping will be first or second in class - not bad for a crew with the combined age of 468.

As promised, the whole crew finished in Tiddy's polyester black thongs (supplied, not owned by.................I think) . The official ARC photographer came out to meet us so by the time he's syndicated his photos, we could well be on the front cover of not only Yachting Monthly, but also Muscleboy, Nosh and various other top shelf publications .

A great sense of achievement and an unforgettable experience for us all,with many excellent memories and tales of derring-do. Tales that will doubtless be embellished and I suspect many of you may well will tire of them all too soon.

I speak for the whole crew in thanking Giles for inviting us and offer an especially big thank you to Shine for getting us her safely. We bent you a bit, broke a few parts and even tried to fill you with seawater, but you never faltered."*

A look at the 50ters that are produced now by GS, the 50 and the 54.











Globe Skipper - Grand Soleil 54 X'OSE from romain Gindre on Vimeo.


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## PCP

*ARC - Hanse 575 - Oyster 625 - Gunfleet 58*

and after, close to an older 85ft older race boat, here it comes the first truly "cheap" boat, I mean a main market mass production boat, the Hanse 575, followed some hours later by two medium weight very expensive boats: Another Oyster, a 625 and a brand new Gunfleet 58. All are very recent boats, being the Oyster 625 2012 European boat of the year in the luxury class and the Gunfleet 58 is one of the nominated for this year contest in the same class.


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## PCP

*ARC - Oyster 48 - Pogo 12.50*

and then it comes an Oyster 48, an old performance cruiser from the time Oyster built them. Ross Appleby and his 1989 Oyster made as usually a great ARC. The Oyster 48 is a Carl Schumacher design and a boat well in advance of its time, a 48ft that only weights 12 447 kg and has 41% of that weight in ballast.






Battling with it on the final of the transat and arriving only one hour later, the first 40ft performance cruiser and by far the less expensive boat till now (considering the price of a new boat), a British Pogo 12.50, Erick's syster ship boat. Has I have been saying, nothing with a price remotely similar to a Pogo can beat it on a Transat.











Pogo 12.50 , Chantier Naval Structures from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.


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## PCP

*Axonite 69*

3 hours after the Pogo 12.50 finished a very interesting boat, an Axonite 69, a 2010 aluminium performance cruiser with a lifting keel. It is a design by Guide de Groot / Satellite yacht design and built by K&M Yachtbuilders, one of the best world's yacht aluminium shipyards.





Click on the orange dots on the boat for different views (first link):

Axonite 69 Axonite / K&M Yachtbuilders

Satellite Yacht Design, Axonite 69


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## PCP

*ARC - Discovery 55 - Acubens 656 - Tournier Freydis 49*

Some hours later it comes a Discovery 55, a recent yacht, Oyster style. It was replaced recently by a 57. The Discovery managed to beat a very badly sailed TP 52 race boat.






But the most improbable boat to make a good transat was the one that arrived next, beating a 49ft fast catamaran, a Tournier Freydis 49, the one that come behind. It was a Acubens 656. Never heard about it? Well, the same with me. I made a search and found not much and what I found left me intrigued, at least at first. It is a steel boat built in Galicia and designed by Iñigo Echenique, also a Galician Naval engineer. Well, never heard about him either but it seems that Acubens 656 sails very well. Anyway I could not understand how a heavy steel boat could have this type or performance.

Well, there is a catch, it is not an heavy sailboat: it weights 39 500kg and carries 270m2 of sail upwind while that Oyster 655 that had arrived 1 day and 7 hours ahead weights 39000kg and has 263m2. For the little I could find about the Acubens 656 the interior is much more "naked" than the one of the Oyster so that should save some weight. Even so it is an impressive weight for a steel yacht: A middle weight yacht after all.

:::Construcción Comoloco:::

The Freydis 49 cat was also a surprise but for the negative. I know that this year seems to have been bad for cats (not a constant trade wind) but even so being beaten by a 40ft monohull performance cruiser (Pogo 12.50) by 10 hours? And the boat does not seem to have been badly sailed, after all is the 3rd cat finishing, after two 60fters and ahead of a much bigger Catana 58.

A nice cat the Tournier Freydis 49:

Constructeur de catamarans et multicoques à proximité de la Rochelle - Tournier-Marine

<iframe width="960" height="720"


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## bobperry

Something is weird with this thread. It just stops on the next page.

Paulo: I thought everyone knew that "yacht" was a Dutch word.
"Vang" is also a Dutch word.
Do you know where the term "Cunningham" came from?
It's fun to trace these words we use so often.


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## Edward3

had the same problem earlier, seems to be working now


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## Faster

Still need to avoid previous page... it's corrupted somehow.


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## PCP

*ARC - Finishing order and some conclusions.*



Faster said:


> Interesting finish line sequence in this event!..


I guess we can take some conclusions if we look at it statistically.

Continuing, with some pictures of the boast with more relevant results, regarding is size.

After that fast cat (Freydis 49) entered a *Oyster 53*, a medium weight boat going almost as fast as the Cat:



then a smaller performance cruiser, a *Wauquiez centurion 45s*:



then an Oyster 625, another fast big Cat, a Catana 58, an Hanse 630, a X - 612 and a Jeanneau 57 and a smaller *X 482* with already some years. Nice boat anyway:



then an Oyster one off, a Hanse 575 an a *Knierim 50*. This is a 2009 performance cruiesr from the same brand as the race boat that come overall in first. Nice boat



Then it arrived a cat, a big Lagoon 560 and then, much far away from the Pogo 12.50, the 2nd 40fter, a First *40.7*, but in the middle of much bigger boats:



then finished a Discovery 55 and a *Grand Soleil 43*:



followed by a Dufour 45e:



and only then arrived the Swans, being the first the smaller, a *Swan 46 MKII*:



and then a Swan 53, a Swan 65, a swan 62 Rs that finished at the same time than a Grand Soleil 50. Not much time after entered the first small boat, a performance cruiser - Racer, the *Sunfast 3200*:



followed at some distance by another interesting boat, a performance cruiser, a Stimson 56.

56ft Cruiser

9 hours later arrived another group with a X 50 entering first, closely followed by a Swan 51, a Lagoon 620, a Oyster 54, a Corby 45 and a *Lagoon 440*. Not bad the Lagoon 440 performance, for a "cheap" cat that many consider a marina boat,,, well, that's a Portuguese boat ...and they all went fast on this transat.



and that's were we are.

I think we can take some conclusions and one of them is that old designed boats are slower, even with all boats loaded for a transat.

The only exception was the Oyster 48 Light wave, a very special boat very light and very well sailed. All traditionally fast older boats, all those Swans, arrived after lots of modern similar size medium weight luxury cruisers and even several mass production inexpensive main market cruisers (similar size).

We can also see that performance cruisers, even loaded, are consistently faster than medium weight modern cruisers and faster then mass production main market cruisers.

Among the performance cruisers, the very light top performance cruisers like the Marten 49, the Pogo 12.50 and the Sunfast 3200 are really on another level (in what regards a Transat) regarding other heavier performance cruisers and finished among much bigger boats.

We can also notice that the Cats, even the fast ones, many times advertised as much faster than similarly sized monohulls, did not keep with that propaganda and that popular inexpensive cats, many times considered as marina condos, like the Lagoon are not that slow, even if compared with other performance cats.

Regarding brands and in what regards big boats that are some with several boats on the front pack with relevance to Oyster, but also, X yachts, Grand Soleil, Hanse, Discovery yachts and Jeanneau.

As a deception the Swan, that were consistently beaten by the Oyster and all those above mentioned brands.


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> ...
> Do you know where the term "Cunningham" came from?
> It's fun to trace these words we use so often.


Invented by Cunningham?

You know, some years ago I was very happy because I had found a way to carry a big 150% genoa well open downwind without the help of a spi pole, passing the line by the end of the boom.

That was a great sailing day and at the end of it I was drinking beers with a British skipper and mentioned that to him. Yes he said, I know that, a Portuguese ....(I cannot remember the name he gave to it)... but it seems that another Portuguese had already invented that and for the talk it was many centuries ago

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*The thread*

This thread is becoming too big and the search engine is pretty useless. For many this is a thread where sailors go back looking for references, opinions and facts about boats. For make it more useful I decided to take away irrelevantl posts from it.

I have already started deleting some of mine and I talked with Faster to see if he could help because I could delete my posts but i cannot delete other posts posted by other members related with the ones I am deleting. So if nobody opposes I will ask Faster to delete irrelevant posts to make the content of the thread more dense and easy to search.


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## HMoll

*Re: The thread*



PCP said:


> This thread is becoming too big and the search engine is pretty useless. For many this is a thread where sailors go back looking for references, opinions and facts about boats. For make it more useful I decided to take away irrelevantl posts from it.
> 
> I have already started deleting some of mine and I talked with Faster to see if he could help because I could delete my posts but i cannot delete other posts posted by other members related with the ones I am deleting. So if nobody opposes I will ask Faster to delete irrelevant posts to make the content of the thread more dense and easy to search.


It has become quite a polyvalent thread. Do as you wish, but please remember: varietas delectat. It makes a great daily read. :laugher. Happy holidays to all.


----------



## PCP

*Great promotional video: C Class Catamaran World Championship in Geneva, Sept 2015*


----------



## PCP

*Re: The thread*



HMoll said:


> It has become quite a polyvalent thread. Do as you wish, but please remember: varietas delectat. It makes a great daily read. :laugher. Happy holidays to all.


Hi, 
the idea is not maintaining a single opinion, my own, but to keep all relevant posts from everybody and just delete lateral non related posts or kind of posts that are not relevant anymore like the ones about old races. In fact I have already deleted maybe 20 posts that I didn't find relevant (my own).

It would not be justifiable if the search engine searched the titles of the threads but it just search any word on the thread and with so many posts and words repeated, including names of boats, the search is pretty useless. For what I saw I think i could reduce the size of this thread in about half, maintaining all the rich content and all the many interesting contributions.

But that is the smaller problem. The bigger one is that this thread is not working anymore. The last page (before this one) has disappeared and I don't know if it has not to do with the size of the thread.

Happy holidays to you 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## outbound

take all mine out. I never say anything useful anyway.


----------



## Faster

outbound said:


> take all mine out. I never say anything useful anyway.


hmmmm... looking for a 'dislike' button! ... not true, out, not true!


----------



## bjung

*Re: The thread*



PCP said:


> Hi,
> the idea is not maintaining a single opinion, my own, but to keep all relevant posts from everybody and just delete lateral non related posts or kind of posts that are not relevant anymore like the ones about old races. In fact I have already deleted maybe 20 posts that I didn't find relevant (my own).
> 
> It would not be justifiable if the search engine searched the titles of the threads but it just search any word on the thread and with so many posts and words repeated, including names of boats, the search is pretty useless. For what I saw I think i could reduce the size of this thread in about half, maintaining all the rich content and all the many interesting contributions.
> 
> But that is the smaller problem. The bigger one is that this thread is not working anymore. The last page (before this one) has disappeared and I don't know if it has not to do with the size of the thread.
> 
> Happy holidays to you
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The sailnet search engine has always been useless. If you google what you are looking for and include "sailnet", all is fine. How about starting "interresting sailboats part 2", that should alleviate most problems without having to resort to gutting this valuable thread.


----------



## PCP

*The first video with the new the RM 890, directly from the Nautic de Paris:*





RM 890 : 9 mètres d'espace et de lumière _por voilesetvoiliers_

Voile and Voilers says about the boat:

*"The much waited 890 RM that replaces the 880 does not disappoint on the quality of its design and on its accommodation: every detail of this Lombard Design is designed to facilitate navigation. The interior is bright and spacious and the boat feels like a much bigger boat. ..."*


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> take all mine out. I never say anything useful anyway.


when I am talking about deleting is this kind of chit chat conversation in the past, and this one after some time. It only matters now. I disagree with you you have made good contributions to this thread and the last one in a discussion with me about Monohull/Multihulls.

I express my opinion but the value of the thread is not only in my opinion but on all opinions, yours included and on the discussion about them. I will not delete any of that but if you go back and look at the post you will see that many are not relevant anymore, like this one will not be in some days.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Jeff_H

*Re: The original Yachts had already a bath tube bow.*



PCP said:


> Back to the word Yacht, it seems to be changing again of meaning. On the 50's and 60's yacht was a pleasure boat of some dimension, but a 40ft boat was already called a yacht, a small yacht but a yacht nonetheless. Now, at least in Europe, if someone is referring to his boat as a yacht and the boat has not more than 60ft, he is being pompous. The denomination of yacht seems to have been reserved now for large pleasure motorboats or sailing boats. Smaller ones are just called as sailing boats or motor boats.


At least in the United States, near as I can tell, stretching back well into the 1800's, the word 'Yacht' merely meant a private vessel (as differenciated from a commercial vessel) and did not have a size associated with it. Years ago I read an article about a sandbagger race that took place shortly after the US Civil War. In that article, they described an incident where there was a colision between an "18 foot yacht" which hit a 'Livery boat' with a church group on board. Similarly Kinhardt used the term, "Small Yachts" in the 1800's to include boats which were as small around 20 feet.

I also understand that this may only be a North American English formal use of the word, 'Yacht'. In common parlance non-sailors seem to assume that there is a size and grandour associated with the word ,"Yacht" which technically is not a part of the definition.

Jeff


----------



## PCP

*Re: The thread*



bjung said:


> The sailnet search engine has always been useless. If you google what you are looking for and include "sailnet", all is fine. How about starting "interresting sailboats part 2", that should alleviate most problems without having to resort to gutting this valuable thread.


Yes, Probably I would start an interesting sailboats II thread when I have too but if this thread is to be keep as a resource and information thread I want to keep it as relevant of possible. I don't want to gut it, see it like taking all fat and bones away and keeping only the good meat

If have to trust me on that but I am the first to want to keep this thread as good as possible. I want to maintain all opinions, discussions as well as relevant information, including posts about boats and delete all the rest including some seasonal information like posts following races that happened more than a year ago. That's nice to follow them here in real time but nobody is going to read that stuff one year after.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

Interesting results of the ARC...
It just seems that when it comes to cruising and long distance passages, the speed advantage of the multis is just not there... 

On another note:
Could anyone explain me how the TCCs are calculated?
I mean 1.652 for a volvo 70... Ok, but at the end of the list is a tp52 with 0.951 (if the last boats all have the same)... 2 pogo 40 with different ratings and a pogo 12.50 with an even lower rating... I do not get it...
http://www.worldcruising.com/content/S635158827967731915/ARC Division List.pdf

Edit:
Keep this awesome thread going - it was the one which hooked me...


----------



## PCP

*Old posts and changing opinions: Two wheel setup*



PCP said:


> Yes, I would have also preferred a tiller and as second choice a single wheel, but what I was trying to say is that if it was a single wheel it would have to be a big one.
> 
> Andrew, on a large transom boat like that, it would have to be a big one because the comfortable steering place would be seated on the side of the boat. If the boat had a small wheel, for example the size of one of the dual wheels, you would not be able to reach it from the sitting position. You would only have a steering position: Standing. Not very comfortable
> 
> ...


A good thing regarding looking at old posts has to do with rectifying opinions when one change them.

Regarding this subject and after being sailed for two years a demanding boat with a one big wheel and also several boats with two wheels, including similar performance boats my opinion changed.

Yes , there is nothing like the feel a big wheel can give you but if you sail solo and on a boat were, like on most of the boats, the winches are not at the reach of the wheelsman, then going forward to adjust them, particularly on a heeled boat or in bad weather is much more difficult, takes more time and can be more dangerous than on a twin wheel system.

Giving those disadvantages, the superior accessibility to the winches and also the easiness for entering the boat from the quay I would say that I would prefer a two wheel system even if my boat as a big sensitive wheel. There is not by accident that all boats are changing to a twin setup, including the new version of my boat.

When I had wrote that post I did not have my present boat neither I had sailed a performance boat with a two wheel system. The Salona 41, that I had sailed after, proved to have a good sensitive feel at the wheel, even if had a two wheel set up, so that is possible. I sailed also a Dufour 425, a very nice boat that had also two wheels but on that one the feeling was everything but sharp.


----------



## PCP

*Re: The original Yachts had already a bath tube bow.*



Jeff_H said:


> At least in the United States, near as I can tell, stretching back well into the 1800's, the word 'Yacht' merely meant a private vessel (as differenciated from a commercial vessel) and did not have a size associated with it. Years ago I read an article about a sandbagger race that took place shortly after the US Civil War. In that article, they described an incident where there was a colision between an "18 foot yacht" which hit a 'Livery boat' with a church group on board. Similarly Kinhardt used the term, "Small Yachts" in the 1800's to include boats which were as small around 20 feet.
> 
> I also understand that this may only be a North American English formal use of the word, 'Yacht'. In common parlance non-sailors seem to assume that there is a size and grandour associated with the word ,"Yacht" which technically is not a part of the definition.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff, maybe you misunderstood me or I have not being clear. What you said happened also here. What I am saying is that now, at least in Europe, nobody would be talking about a 18ft yacht. That would be regarded as pompous. It can be only here and on the US they are still calling yachts to dinghies but probably it will change. What I said was:

"Back to the word Yacht, *it seems to be changing again of meaning*. *On the 50's and 60's yacht was a pleasure boat of some dimension*, but a 40ft boat was already called a yacht, a small yacht but a yacht nonetheless.* Now, at least in Europe, if someone is referring to his boat as a yacht and the boat has not more than 60ft, he is being pompous*. *The denomination of yacht seems to have been reserved now for large pleasure motorboats or sailing boats.* Smaller ones are just called as sailing boats or motor boats."

Regards

Paulo


----------



## outbound

Personally find best "feel" is with a tiller, second with single wheel as moving less hardware. Given unless you are doing round the buoy races 95% or greater of the time boat is on AP if cruising so this is not a big issue for many sailors. Similarly given the no moving parts reliability of a tiller for voyagers a tiller may make great sense. With a tiller you can just tilt it up so the whole cockpit is clear when at anchor. Think it a shame fewer and fewer boats are offered with option of 1 wheel or two or tiller.


----------



## PCP

*Irc*



capt vimes said:


> Interesting results of the ARC...
> It just seems that when it comes to cruising and long distance passages, the speed advantage of the multis is just not there...
> 
> On another note:
> Could anyone explain me how the TCCs are calculated?
> I mean 1.652 for a volvo 70... Ok, but at the end of the list is a tp52 with 0.951 (if the last boats all have the same)... 2 pogo 40 with different ratings and a pogo 12.50 with an even lower rating... I do not get it...
> http://www.worldcruising.com/content/S635158827967731915/ARC Division List.pdf
> 
> Edit:
> Keep this awesome thread going - it was the one which hooked me...


Thanks.

The boats are rated under IRC. IRC does not rate a model but each particular boat depending on sails, carbon masts, canting keels, and water ballast among other things. The rule is revised each year taking into account the race results from the last year. It is a secret rule and only the RORC Rating Office and UNCL Centre de Calcul in Paris (that own the rule) are able to attribute a ratting.

An Introduction to IRC

Offshore Documents

That's a lot more sophisticated and close to the boat's real performance than the PHRF or the Nordic LYS but in my opinion a let loss sophisticated and accurate than ORCI. Problem is that the French and the British use it while the ORCI is used more by Italians even if now is spreading quickly to Germany and Nordic countries. There was talking about unifying the two rules but it seems that the installed interests are too big

That's pretty ridiculous, here top race boats have two keels and change them according to the rule. Not a big difference but it can be enough for winning.

Regarding those two different ratings to two Pogo 40's (class 40 racing boats?) it has probably to do with the sails they have and age allowance (older boats have automatically a lower rating then new ones).

Regarding the big difference of those two Pogos 40 to the Pogo 12.50 (slower boat) it has to do with the 12.50 being a cruiser and the others racers. The Pogo 12.50 has the same hull as a Pogo class 40 racing boat but a smaller rig (without back-stay), a swing keel (the others have a racing keel with more draft - 3.0m) and does not have water ballast tanks.

By the way that beautiful hull that was posted by G1000 is a Pogo 12.50 hull, the one from his own new sailboat that is being built.

Regarding the TP52 you are mistaken. There is no rating there for it. The one you mention is attributed to a 8,5m boat a small cruising Pogo.

The IRC rating of a TP52 should be around 1360. The Tp52 is a top racing boat and the one that was making this Transat was a very poor sailed one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

Thank you PCP - that explains a lot...
The outremer 64, which made line honours in the ARC+, is an austrian boat... Did not know that... 

Back to the new RM...
I think that the place for the working winches just aside the companion way is somewhat awkward...
But a beautiful boat.


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> Thank you PCP - that explains a lot...
> The outremer 64, which made line honours in the ARC+, is an austrian boat... Did not know that...
> 
> Back to the new RM...
> I think that the place for the working winches just aside the companion way is somewhat awkward...
> But a beautiful boat.


No it is not awkward. They have a long experience with this type of boats and the solution is used in other several fast boats of this type.

You have to consider that the main is a direct one, not needing winches and that the boat has a tiller so with the extension out you can reach the winches with the tiller on one hand not losing the control of the boat or needing the automatic pilot

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*ARC - Arrivals*

Let's continue looking at the arrivals on the ARC:

On the next group after that Lagoon 44 entered the first medium weight 45fter, the one I consider one of best boats of this type, the XC 45, a beautiful boat with somewhat classic lines:



then a bigger an very expensive performance cruiser, a Sweden 54, followed at close range by a mass market cruiser of the same size, a Beneteau Oceanis 54:



Then a bigger performance cruiser, a C&C 61 followed at close range by the first 36fter, a First 36.7. Taking apart the Sunfast 3200, that is much more a racing boat than a cruiser, this was the first real "small" boat to finish the transat. Another Portuguese boat. Only three Portuguese boats on the Transat, the first one was that Lagoon 44 that finished ahead of many faster cats, this one, and a Dufour 40 that is not far. They all made a great Transat.



Then followed a bigger performance cruiser, a Grand Soleil 50. Some hours later come another group leading by a huge racer, a Challenge 72 ,the boat they used on the Global Challenge. Now they use a faster new one), then the 2nd First 40.7, a performance cruiser:



then a cat, a privilege 585, a Discovery 57, an Oyster 54, an Oyster 53 and another mass production boat with some years, a Gib sea 51:



A discovery 55 and close to it the first mass production cruiser (not a performance boat) with 40ft or less, a Dufour 385:



Great sailing on this one by an old Finnish septuagenarian owner, with 40 years of ocean racing experience, and an Italian Captain that is a great sailor. Followed a Vand de Stadt Moorea, also going very fast:



Some hours later arrived a fast Outremer 42 (cat) that here was not so fast followed by an Hanse 495 and another small performance cruiser, a X-412:



followed by an Oyster 625, and a Spirit 56:





Great performance for this type of boat. These guys sail in style.
then finished a Jeanneau 53, an Oyster 575, another fast cat, a Catana 471, an older Amel Maramu 2000 and the first Halberg Rassy, a 53fter, followed by a First 44.7 and the first 30fter, a brand new Pogo 30:



followed by an American Southerly 42 RST.



Just some words for the Pogo that made a great passage and for the Southerly that is the first medium weight 42fter to finish. I have to hide this from my wife. This is her preferred sailboat. The boat has a swing keel a very good interior and it is a true deck saloon with a great all around view. I discarded the boat explained to her that it was a very slow boat.

Conclusions: Much the same as on the last post with even more relevance for the number of Oysters and Discovery finishing on the head of the transat. Also a word for Beneteau and especially to the First line, with 4 boats among the first and with a 40.7 and a 36.7 doing a great performance.


----------



## MrPelicano

outbound said:


> Personally find best "feel" is with a tiller, second with single wheel as moving less hardware. Given unless you are doing round the buoy races 95% or greater of the time boat is on AP if cruising so this is not a big issue for many sailors. Similarly given the no moving parts reliability of a tiller for voyagers a tiller may make great sense. With a tiller you can just tilt it up so the whole cockpit is clear when at anchor. Think it a shame fewer and fewer boats are offered with option of 1 wheel or two or tiller.


Agree with the preference for tiller steering, and we are not alone. Almost all the IMOCA 60's feature tiller steering - sometimes twin tillers on either side of the cockpit, sometimes two tillers terminating at a single point in the middle of the rear of the cockpit. The Sunfast 3200 features the twin tiller set-up, as well. For me, it is the best of both worlds - opens the rear of the boat, for easy access to the transom, but preserves the feel of tiller steering, particularly upwind.

Having said that, I've driven boats with big single wheels and double wheels, and prefer double wheels, particularly for buoy racing.


----------



## PCP

After that list regarding all those modern luxurious medium weight, performance cruisers and middle of the road mass market cruisers all with great interiors doing a fast transat I cannot resist to repost this old post about marina boats. It seems that it is what they all are, at least in Gusmus opinion...... and now we are talking about them not for 43 pages but for more than 500



gusmus said:


> 43 Pages and I'm astounded. 10% of the posts on here are about how the boat actually sails and about its seakeeping qualities. 90% of the posts are about how big the bloody shower is. Jeez. Buy a caravan or go sailing bluewater and then decide how big the shower needs to be after a force 8 or 9 kicks you in the butt.. I have read the thread in "Almost" its entirity, which, is the reason I felt the need to post as I did.
> 
> Looking through the lists and photos of most of the boats mentioned I'd have to say that there are a huge amount of non sailing dreamers and/or marina dwellers posting. There are basically three types of sailor. The racer, The cruiser, AND, The Marina dweller. All three have specific needs when choosing a boat, but, when looking at interiors which will obviously become exagerated tumble dryers in anything above a force 4 I'll stick to my last post. Buy a caravan.....


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 310 first images.*

Lot's of people complaining that there are not new interesting 30fts on the market, well, this seems to be a luxury year in what regards 30ft boats: The Pogo 30, the RM 890, the Malango 888, Elan 320 and the Dufour 310.

Others complain that the boats are all the same...well these ones are all different and pointing to different styles of sailing and cruising. Quite a choice I would say

The Dufour represents the type of cruiser suited for more sailors, the typical program for a mass production boat, but the design is brilliant and Felci have managed to make a very balanced and beautiful boat.

I like Dufours, some have complained about its finish that I do not find worse than the competition, but the design is top and the performance....well, we have just to look at the ARC. We did not reach there in what regards statistics regarding smaller 38/40ft cruisers, but Dufour has been probably the brand that comes out better.

We will see that better but for now a beautiful 30ft and certainly a fast one, considering that it is not a performance cruiser. Great interior too

From the Nautic de Paris where the boat was presented:


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Maybe the Seascape 27 is the Pogo's little brother


----------



## HMoll

*Re: The first video with the new the RM 890, directly from the Nautic de Paris:*

Voile and Voilers says about the boat:

*"The much waited 890 RM that replaces the 880 does not disappoint on the quality of its design and on its accommodation: every detail of this Lombard Design is designed to facilitate navigation. The interior is bright and spacious and the boat feels like a much bigger boat. ..."*[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting the new RM. I've had great expectations to see this little yacht. The new canopy line, bow and fixed sprit are beautiful. RM, Pogo and even Dufour have an important understanding of winch ergonomics that translate from solo sailing very well. Winch placement for crewed racing is very diferrent, and does not translate to easy sailing or shorthand cruising at all. That is a compromise of racer-cruisers. I think there is a concept of performance cruising in La Rochelle which is very clear and different from racer cruisers. Even with a full family on board, especially with children, we find ourselves single-handing, and when things are in the "right" place for a single-hander, there is no need for "move out of the way", "pull here when I say", and all that yelling I often hear in some boats. Precisely why many families drop out of sailing, because they can't enjoy it while they're at it.

The canopy of the new 890 looks great, but too bad it doesn't work for the headroom (OUCH!). They should've stuck to the high 1060 canopy. I'm hoping they do a 1065 with the sexy lines of the 890. It would top my list for my next boat. That new Pogo 30 is a close second and the Dufour 310 looks great too.


----------



## PCP

*Laura Dekker movie:*






Do you know that initially his voyage was initially previewed to be made in a 8.30m sailboat, a Hurley 800?

That Laura, daughter of divorced fathers, had been prevented to leave school by the child protection authorities for about a year? That she was not allowed by the Dutch naval authorities to skipper the boat and to evade that she was given as a missing person to the Police?

That she intended to start her voyage from Portugal and was prevented to do so because she had not the required age to skipper a boat?

Independently of the sailing achievement Laura Dekker is an interesting case in what regards education responsibility and father's freedom of choice and social responsability in what regards children education.

On most countries there is a minimum required schooling age where they are forced to attend to school (compulsory education) and have no permission to work. On more civilized countries that age is between 16 and 18.


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> Maybe the Seascape 27 is the Pogo's little brother
> 
> Seascape does Jabuka race 2013 - YouTube


Not really. The Seascape 27 is a great boat but not with the same sailing program of the Pogo. We have already talked about the Seascape, it is a daysailer or a week-end cruiser, not a Class A boat. The Pogo 30 is a true cruiser with a much more ambitious sailing program, one that can include crossing oceans. If you want to talk with a smaller boat with the same program then we would be talking about the Django 770 that on one of its versions (unsinkable) is the smallest boat I know that has passed Class A certification and is also a fast and fun boat to sail.

Django 770 : teaser de l'essai complet en vidéo

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats-37.html

Rehards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*More crazy stuff:*



Well, one more circumnavigation what's crazy about that?

That is going to be attempted by a pro, a good one, Yvan Bourgnon, with Vincent Beauvarlet on an *OPEN SMALL CAT*

The objective:

To do the first World circumnavigation with a non cruising sailboat (on a sport catamaran 6.3 meters long) and also a circumnavigation with a boat with less than 6.5 meters with no support, no GPS (navigation sextant).

Yvan Bourgnon is a great sailor:
















But this is a madness






His crew, Vincent Beauvarlet, a wind surf champion give up at Canary Islands but that seems not to be a problem for Bourgnon that crossed the Atlantic alone but...he says about it *" The boat almost capsized 150 times till it really capsized in a big storm.... I fought with all my strength to get back to the boat and to put it back on his feet....sometimes I got 60K winds...this is not for all, it is very risky."*

Yvan Bourgnon : «J'ai lutté comme un fou, un féroce» - 11/12/2013 - LaDépêche.fr

I have to say that I had necer any doubt about that, I mean that is not for all and that is very risky

And after losing being abandoned by the crew and almost losing is live is he going to quit? No way, he will continue alone.

You can follow the mad circumnavigation of Yvan Bourgnon here:

Le défi d?Yvan | Yvan Bourgnon


----------



## PCP

*ARC - update*

Last post about boats that have done well and arrived among the first, even if these arrivals are separated by days : 5 days and 15 hours separates the first relatively small performance cruiser (a Marten 49) to the last sailboat I will post a Bavaria 47. But even so these are the first sailboats, if we consider the 250 boats, the Bavaria 47 is among the ones that arrived on the first third (or less) regarding all the boats.

This shot was taken when the Bavaria was entering. As you can see there are boats still nearer from Cabo Verde than to Sta Lucia



On the tail of the Transat among others we can find a Nauticat 42, a Island Packet 380, a Vand de Stadt 36, a nauticat 44, a trintella 57, all heavy boats, but curiously he can also find 5 big cats. It seems that this year's unusual upwind sailing on the transat was not good for the cats. I hope they all have plenty of water and food because it is going to be a Sloooooow transat for them.

So, continuing....several hours after that Southerly 42RS arrived another group leaded by a performance cruiser, a Grand Soleil 50 and very close another of those fast and beautiful medium weight XC 45, the second arriving mostly among performance cruisers or much bigger cruisers:



followed an older performance cruiser, a Swan 44MKII, a medium weight Moody 66 and an Arcona 400, a performance cruiser:



then a well sailed Finnish Bavaria 42:



and a Portuguese Dufour 40, a performance cruiser:



a big cat, a Privilege 55 and a well sailed Bavaria 40:



Some hours later arrived at almost the same time a performance cruiser with some years, a Sweden yacht 55, a fast cat, a Catana 431, a main market Dufour 375 GL:



a jeanneau Sun Odyssey 42:



a Grand Soleil 45 performance cruiser and the first sailboat with less than 30ft, a Pogo 8.50, also a performance cruiser:



some ours later and in another group a First 44.7, a Skye 51, another fast cat, a Catana 47, an Oyster 53 and another Dufour 40:



a Southerly 47, a Grand Soleil 46, a Sweden yacht 45 and a Bavaria 47.

As I said these are just the first third, or less than that, that arrived first. Most of the boats are still days, some a week or more away.

Conclusions: Lots's of "marina" boats among the first and also many mass production inexpensive cruisers and performance cruisers.

Very few older boats among the first with exception of some Swan or other once fast performance cruisers that here showed a similar performance to mass production main market inexpensive cruising boats of the same size.

The Cats had an overall poor performance, maybe because this year the trade winds did not show as usual and there was considerable upwind sailing involved.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: More crazy stuff:*



PCP said:


> Well, one more circumnavigation what's crazy about that?
> 
> That is going to be attempted by a pro, a good one, Yvan Bourgnon, with Vincent Beauvarlet on an *OPEN SMALL CAT*
> 
> The objective:
> 
> To do the first World circumnavigation with a non cruising sailboat (on a sport catamaran 6.3 meters long) and also a circumnavigation with a boat with less than 6.5 meters with no support, no GPS (navigation sextant).
> 
> Yvan Bourgnon is a great sailor:
> 
> But this is a madness
> 
> His crew, Vincent Beauvarlet, a wind surf champion give up at Canary Islands but that seems not to be a problem for Bourgnon that crossed the Atlantic alone but...he says about it *" The boat almost capsized 150 times till it really capsized in a big storm.... I fought with all my strength to get back to the boat and to put it back on his feet....sometimes I got 60K winds...this is not for all, it is very risky."*
> 
> Yvan Bourgnon : «J'ai lutté comme un fou, un féroce» - 11/12/2013 - LaDépêche.fr
> 
> I have to say that I had necer any doubt about that, I mean that is not for all and that is very risky
> 
> And after losing being abandoned by the crew and almost losing is live is he going to quit? No way, he will continue alone.
> 
> You can follow the mad circumnavigation of Yvan Bourgnon here:
> 
> Le défi d?Yvan | Yvan Bourgnon


For all that, he made it to Martinique in 19 days, beating the record of Alessandro Benedetto by 9 days. That's amazing, considering how totally whacky the tradewinds have been this year (listen to Craig Horsefield's interview over at the MT site where he talks about his frustration finding himself sailing upwind in the so-called trades). 

I don't blame his partner for abandoning the voyage, but I suspect this will not slow down Bourgnon at all. He will be leaving for Panama shortly, to celebrate the holidays and New Year, before heading out across the Pacific, which hopefully will be more benign than the Atlantic has been. Perhaps he will eventually catch up with the two Frenchmen making a circumnavigation in their Mini 6.50, who just arrived in New Guinea a few days ago.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/DEFI-Voile-650/141867589263604?fref=ts

It is funny to me how Bourgnon's effort makes sailing around the world in a Mini 6.50 seem like no big deal (of course, Benedetto has already done that before, singlehanded and non-stop).

http://www.alessandrodibenedetto.net/index.php?option=com_zoom&page=viewimage&catid=10&key=28&type=0&tmpl=component


----------



## PCP

*Re: The first video with the new the RM 890, directly from the Nautic de Paris:*



HMoll said:


> ..
> Thanks for posting the new RM. I've had great expectations to see this little yacht. ...
> 
> The canopy of the new 890 looks great, but too bad it doesn't work for the headroom (OUCH!). They should've stuck to the high 1060 canopy. I'm hoping they do a 1065 with the sexy lines of the 890. It would top my list for my next boat. That new Pogo 30 is a close second and the Dufour 310 looks great too.


That guy from Voile and Voiliers, the one that is presenting the boat should be forbidden to do that.That guy has certainly more than 1.90m. In fact the "standing weight" of the RM 890 is pretty good for a 30fter. 1.79m at the end of stair.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Yvan Bourgnon*



MrPelicano said:


> For all that, he made it to Martinique in 19 days, beating the record of Alessandro Benedetto by 9 days. That's amazing, considering how totally whacky the tradewinds have been this year (listen to Craig Horsefield's interview over at the MT site where he talks about his frustration finding himself sailing upwind in the so-called trades).
> 
> I don't blame his partner for abandoning the voyage, but I suspect this will not slow down Bourgnon at all. He will be leaving for Panama shortly, to celebrate the holidays and New Year, before heading out across the Pacific, which hopefully will be more benign than the Atlantic has been. ...


On the ARC this year the first boat beat the race record. Yes the weather is crazy and the wind is not on it was supposed to be but there but there is wind.

Alessandro de Benedetto is today a great sailor and a professional one but back when he crossed the Atlantic in a cat he was more an adventurer than a top sailor.

What Bourgnon is trying to do is plain crazy but he is certainly a top sailor and with no comparison with Benedetto at the time he crossed the Atlantic. Just look at his curriculum as a sailor:

In 1995, he won the Mini-Fastnet, the « Transgascogne » and the la Mini-Transat. With his brother Laurent he won the 1997 la Transat Jacques Vabres and in 1999 he finishes 3rd after having to stop on the way for repairs.






and more this:

*"In 2000, he became the record holder for the longest distance ever traveled with a crew on24 hours ( 625.34 miles ) on a 60 foot trimaran during the Transat Quebec - Saint Malo finishing 3rd.





*


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 38 - another boat test*

There are lot's of great boats among the ones nominated for the European boat of the year but this would be the one I would probably choose on the performance category: The boat marks the return of Dehler to a great and beautiful cruising interior. T

The Dehler 38 is very close to the perfection in what regards compromise between cruising and club racing (with the possibility to have a top boat for serious racing, a much more expensive one), in fact if offers great performance, a big cruising potential, beauty and an interesting price. Difficult to ask for more. A great design by Judel & Vrolijk.

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileBank/SWF/dehler38_.swf

The boat was tested by the British Magazine Sailing Today and they said about it:

*Dehler yachts have always been designed to satisfy a yearning for speed and performance under sail - and the new 38 is definitely no exception...(Dehler) is back to producing top-class sailing cruisers.

In a Hamble marina filled with beamy new cruising yachts she looks somewhat waif-like, sporting a fine bow and conservative beam (by today's standards). While this gives her an arrow-like overall appearance, it consequently also reduces the amount of interior volume - albeit not by a massive amount.

... The cockpit-adjustable genoa tracks are tucked well inboard, giving her headsail a nice tight sheeting angle as well as keeping the side decks free from trip or snagging hazards...

Her cockpit is pragmatically arranged and is likely to appeal to sailors and cruising passengers alike. Most of the sail controls are easily within reach from the helms, while still giving clear access aft to the large transom platform for accessing the water or dinghy.
..
As I descended the companionway steps I was expecting a rather stark, 'stripped out' interior that many of the more performance-orientated yachts often have. I was pleasantly surprised. ...

Rather than the acres of white, hose-down plastic I'd been expecting, there were nice, traditional wooden bulkheads and lockers, teak and holly sole boards, and pleasant off-white upholstery with all the trimmings.

To sum up her performance - she's an absolute delight to sail. Well balanced, sprightly through tacks, light on the helm, tracks as if she's on rails and generally feels like a fully-spec'd racing machine - but without the twitchiness of a thoroughbred racer.
...

This is a sailor's yacht, which, with the addition of a few more performance options, can be raced competitively if desired. However, she will perform equally well as a comfortable and safe offshore cruiser for less ambitious family holidays.

The basic price is very competitive...
*
Dehler 38: Review and test - Sailing Today | Sailing Today


----------



## PCP

*Allures: 10 years of history and sucess*


----------



## PCP

*They don't know....*



MrPelicano said:


> ... two Frenchmen making a circumnavigation in their Mini 6.50, who just arrived in New Guinea a few days ago.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/DEFI-Voile-650/141867589263604?fref=ts
> 
> ...


These guys are ignorant:

They don't know that a Modern light 21 ft light boat has not the load capacity to carry water, provisions and cruising equipment for two on a Transat, much less in a circumnavigation.

They don't know that the boat loaded that way will be as slow as an heavy boat..... and that's why they go fast

They don't know that this is not a boat designed to cross oceans

They don't know that they should not have so much fun with so little money


























If somebody wishes to do the same with a bit more comfort and not much money these guys make similarly designed boats more adapted for cruising. They even have an "huge" one with 25ft

Marée Haute - Django 7.70


----------



## PCP

*Django 12.70 - Django 9.30 and Django 6.70*

Great news from the shipyard Marée Haute, the one tha makes the Django 6.70 and 7.70 that I mentioned on the last post:

They are doing not one but two new and very interesting boats: A 12.70 and a 9.70, on the same principles that are used on the smaller boats. Based on Open solo racers, fast, very light, a good cruising interior and an attractive price.

The design will be by Pierre Rolland a designer specialized on this type of boats and they will be certainly fast. Few things are known about the 9.30, except this drawing:



Regarding the 12.70, that will be ready on the Spring, will share the same market as the Pogo 12.50 (also has a swing keel) we know a lot more and for what we know it looks great







Lots of light inside the boat, an interior that will look more spacious than the one of Pogo (due to the light and outside views) and a fixed spraywood are some of the innovative characteristics.

Regarding dimensions and comparing with the Pogo 12.50:

LOA	..........Pogo 12.50m / Django 12.70m
Beam	.......... Pogo 4.50m / Django 4.35m
Draft.............Pogo 3.00m - 1.20m / Django / ...- 2.90m 
Displacement..Pogo 5.600kg /Django 6000kg
ballast...........Pogo 1.900kg /Django 2 200 kg
Upwind SA .....Pogo 100m2 / Django 114m2
Downwind SA..Pogo 210m2/Django 226m2

It looks good to me (it even as doors) and probably it will be slightly faster than the Pogo 12.50: A little less beam, a lot more ballast, a very similar weight and more sail area.

I cannot wait to see this one on the water

In the meantime we have to content ourselves with the little own, nominated to this year's European boat of the year contest and with good chances of winning in its category.


----------



## PCP

*Lagoon 39*

This is not the type of boat that I would like to have but many would call this a condo marina boat and that's just unfair. The boat is what it is with its strong and weak points but it is good to remember that a 44 Lagoon finished the last ARC among performance cats, most bigger ones and performance monohulls of about the same size or bigger So, the boat is not as a bad sailing boat a many want us to make believe.

The boat, as all these type of cats (without movable foils) has a poor pointing ability but it sails well on all other points of sail...and many coastal cruisers just motor upwind, having them a Cat or a monohull.

The Lagoon 39 offers better sailing potential than previous Lagoons, a lot of space and a lot of boat for the money. This one is one of the least expensive cats, costing about 270 000 USD.

Sailors are not easily deceived and the huge success this boat has been experiencing in what regards sales means that it is the right answer for many cruisers.

Here some comments from a Yachting Today boat test:

*"There can't be many sailors who haven't at some time seen a Lagoon catamaran passing them by..whatever you might think or say about its looks, however, this stalwart range of cruising catamarans has proved extremely popular - both with long-term liveaboards and casual coastal sailors alike.

.. Monohull sailors are always astounded at the sheer volume of accommodation and deck area of a cat - myself included...

A great deal of thought and listening to existing clients has pushed Lagoon into radically redesigning its sail plan. Some might say it has even regressed, closer in fact to much earlier designs such as the famous Prout range. As with all the new series, the 39's mast has been moved back to the center of the boat, both increasing the foretriangle and reducing the mainsail area and boom length. This makes them more balanced under sail, as well as easier to handle. Although mainsail furling has become popular over the past couple of decades, the extra weight and jamming risk of the ubiquitous in-mast reefing system is not ideal,especially on a catamaran.

..So Lagoon might have made a sensible move here, even more so by making the jib self-tacking, eliminating the need for long lines across the coachroof and additional blocks, clutches and winches.

Those seeking the very best performance under sail, can order a full Code 0 (gennaker) kit, which includes bowsprit, blocks, winches and large 732sqft (68m2) overlapping headsail for an additional £12,535 including bowsprit and deck gear. There's also a choice between standard or square-top mainsail, the latter adding a further 65sqft (6m2) of sail area for another £324.

We sailed on a gentle day with a cool nor' westerly blowing. ...
She does feel nicely balanced on a reach and happily tacks from beam to beam despite the self-tacking jib going around immediately. Along with the mast, the keels have also been moved aft, which enables her bows to go through the wind more easily without needing to back the jib. .. She won't tack under main alone, but then this is unsurprising for any cat.

Of all the cats I've sailed, the Lagoon 39 seems to be one of the easiest, both to handle and to move about on. She's fast yet calm, well balanced while still giving feedback to the helm and comfortably spacious below without the feeling of vulnerability under sail that some wide-open boats can impart.

The quality of construction is very good, with no corners cut or obvious scrimping to meet an accountant's bottom line, and the redesigned sail/rig plan is a definite improvement. ....

The many benefits of owning a catamaran over a monohull for cruising are all apparent here in the 39. She has heaps more interior volume than a 40ft mono, deck-level panoramic views from her saloon and acres of outdoor deck space for relaxing as well as working on the boat and its equipment."*

Lagoon video


----------



## PCP

*Who better than Jeff Johnstone to talk about the J88?*


----------



## PCP

*Back to the Django 770... a new and faster version.*

They have a new version with deep keel (2.0m) more RM and a sail with more area. This baby has become even nicer


----------



## robelz

Love the Djangos. The 12.70 will be a great passagemaker. Can't await to see pictures of the interior of both...


----------



## capt vimes

it really scares me, if i see a production boat with such a thin and flimsy keel blade...
it might be OK for a well maintained race boat which is more on the dry than actually sailed, but a cruiser? even if labeled racer-cruiser...

heck - the open 60s get there keels replaced even more than once a year and still they tend to snap and fall off, as seen in this years edition of the vendee globe...
how many keels did part with the hull? safran, virbac paprec (although JP dick managed to finish), acciona... am i missing one?


----------



## MrPelicano

capt vimes said:


> it really scares me, if i see a production boat with such a thin and flimsy keel blade...
> it might be OK for a well maintained race boat which is more on the dry than actually sailed, but a cruiser? even if labeled racer-cruiser...
> 
> heck - the open 60s get there keels replaced even more than once a year and still they tend to snap and fall off, as seen in this years edition of the vendee globe...
> how many keels did part with the hull? safran, virbac paprec (although JP dick managed to finish), acciona... am i missing one?


You need to put this in perspective. No cruiser will ever sail his/her boat at the outer limits of its performance window - i.e., pushing hour after hour at sustained speeds of 20+ knots, in big breeze and seas, for thousands of miles, under racing conditions. Just isn't going to happen. In which case, the only thing one should be concerned about is the ability of the keel strut to sustain impact damage from striking submerged objects like containers, tree trunks, sharks, etc., or grounding. That's a legitimate concern, and I'm sure the designers of the Django 7.70 have taken it into consideration when developing the specifications for this particular keel.

Ultimately, in my opinion, this configuration will appeal primarily to sailors interested in performance cruising which would include participating in events like the Transquadra. Indeed, I was looking online at an Archambault 31 for sale in Spain that swapped out the standard fin keel for a strut-and-bulb percisely to improve performance in the 2011 Transquadra, in which it ultimately finished 2nd overall in the doublehanded division. I suspect most people who buy a Django for cruising will opt for the twin keel. For me, I would go with the strut-and-bulb configuration because I still intend to race, as well as cruise.


----------



## PCP

*Keels*



capt vimes said:


> it really scares me, if i see a production boat with such a thin and flimsy keel blade...
> it might be OK for a well maintained race boat which is more on the dry than actually sailed, but a cruiser? even if labeled racer-cruiser...
> 
> heck - the open 60s get there keels replaced even more than once a year and still they tend to snap and fall off, as seen in this years edition of the vendee globe...
> how many keels did part with the hull? safran, virbac paprec (although JP dick managed to finish), acciona... am i missing one?


The problems with the keels on the Open 60's has nothing to do with it. They know already what is the problem that has to do with the fact of being canting keels and with metal fatigue due to movement and stress. They are still developing knowledge that in some years will be applied to cruising boats.

The Django keel has nothing new and the technology that is behind that is well known and used successfully in race boats for many years and they don't change the keels neither they have problems with them. You have also to consider that the Django 7.70 on that version weights less than 1400kg and that keel will probably have about 500Kg. Consider also that this boat, in his unsinkable version is the smaller boat to have passed RCD class A certification.

Regarding what a "flimsy" keel like that can take look at this video (min 2.40) and take into consideration that the boat had already suffered an identical treatment when it was 
throw to the beach by big waves. At the end the keel was alright and it was needed just small repairs on the rudders for the boat to be able to be sailed back from Brazil to France again.






Take also in consideration that this was a production race boat (a Pogo) that it was not a new one (it had 6 years and many races) and that it had the original keel.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sydney 43 by Salona.*

What seems to be the first Sydney built by Salona was presented on the Nautic de Paris. The press was impressed by the quality of the finish and by the building quality.

The boat was a Sydney 43, an incredibly fast cruiser racer, the won that won last Sydney-Hobart (compensated) and that made an incredible race in real time finishing among the big yachts.

The boat is not a striped out racer and allows cruising, a bit like a Pogo 12.50, in a kind of Spartan way, but with everything that is needed, including a big sail pleasure



















The press was surprised with the quality and I was surprised with the price: 380 000 euros including 20% VAT. That is a great price taking into consideration the type of boat. This is a very light boat with 6950kg but most of all the biggest part of that weight is ballast. That needs an hugely strong hull to be able to sustain the loads that such a B/D ratio will create. This type of boats is always very expensive to built.

I hope they succeed in Europe. I believe that what is needed is two or three boats racing at high level... and I am sure, winning a lot

This risks to be the first Ker design to be sold in considerable numbers and not only to very top racers.


----------



## nemier

robelz said:


> Love the Djangos. The 12.70 will be a great passagemaker. Can't await to see pictures of the interior of both...


,,,count me in on that one


----------



## capt vimes

PCP
The strut on the mini looks a lot sturdier than the one on the django...
Besides - a mini weighs around a ton with roughly 3 - 400 kg in the bulb... If it is a heavy one... 
And granted - race boats with their canting keels impose really big loads on the strut, especially if driven hard which is their usual state of motion...
Anyway, i would not feel safe with a thin strut like this one...


----------



## PCP

*DSS on Wild Oats*

I was afraid that was not true but that's confirmed. It will be very interesting to see the effect of that on the Sydney Hobart performance of the yacht.


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 41 s*

If someone wants a better sailing boat, one that could be more enjoyable to sail but does not want to spend a lot more on a performance cruiser, the Bavaria 41s can be the right solution.

The 41 has a nice well design Farr hull and has now a much better version for ones that want to enjoy as much sailing and cruising, the new 41s.

The boat comes with a bigger mast (50cms), more sail area, a bigger draft (2.30m), a better and deeper rudder, it is lighter, with more and bigger winches and a carbon spi pole. In the end we have significantly better sailing boat, not only faster but more agreeable to sail. If we join that to the much nicer cabin design and a better designed interior (from the 41) we will have a nice boat very hard to beat in what regards what offers: a lot of boat for the money.

The boat will cost about more 20 000 euros than the standard version (without sails). The price 169 220 euros including German VAT is very good even if you have to join about more 8000 euros for decent sails.











Have a look at the interior and storage space here (that is the regular 41 that in this regard is the same as the 41s):


----------



## PCP

*Bob Perry 60ft designed Yacht finds some great new owners*

A 10 year old Bob Perry aluminium design built in Europe by Jachtbouw Folmer....

....has found some great new owners, a German couple ( Nathalie Müller e Michael Wnuknow) with two kids, that have meet at sea and have being travelling together for the last decade, first on a steel boat, the Iron Lady and now on Marlin, a Bob Perry design, that is doing now what was designed to do in first place.

The boat has won a new live and looks better than new.

They are a quite famous in Germany with a published book and a blog that has been many times presented on the "Yacht" German magazine one of the the biggest in Europe.

Das Buch: Sieben Jahre lang um die Welt - Panorama*|*YACHT.DE
Blog*|*YACHT.DE
SY Marlin

Some photos of the boat and the family:


----------



## robelz

*Re: Bob Perry 60ft designed Yacht finds some great new owners*



PCP said:


>


It is weird to have the genoa reefed if you have a jib on another furler...

The Sydney GTS43 is a blast. I am waiting for the 37 that fits me better!


----------



## robelz

German YACHT magazine tested the SF3600 at 15-20kn: The had 7,1kn at 40° true, over 10 at 90°, 11,5 at 130° and 8,5 at 180...


----------



## PCP

*Aluyacht AY 480*

We have already talked about the AY 480, the Italian aluminum voyage boat, one that shares some of the characteristics of the previous 60ft aluminum cruiser even if with a different keel and an overall lighter boat.



It is a Zerbinati design and the boat has an interesting story. It started to be a Dudley Dix design and then was bettered in many ways by Zerbinati.






















An interesting movie about the building techniques used and with some images of the boat sailing. Not for all since it is in Italian, but the ones that don't understand can have a better look at the boat anyway:






Naucat - nautical magazine :: EN :: Sailing Boats :: Cruiser :: AluYacht 480

Aluyacht - Italian Aluminium Yach

(for more information use the search thread engine)


----------



## PCP

*New A35*

The hull is the same but the changes are so many that this is truly a MkII, a new version.

One that is not visible is the deck and cockpit, alright we can see that the cabin is different but we cannot see that they are made using an infusion system (it was by injection) and that allowed to save a lot of weight that went almost all to ballast that is more substantial then before giving it a bigger RM (the boat as a very big B/D ratio).

The draft is bigger with 2.20m and rudder and keel were revised. The rudder is really deep and the keel has been perfected for IRC rating. Probably they will offer another version for the Transaquadra with a torpedo keel and two rudders.

The boat can have two wheels or a tiller and in that case the traveler changes position going aft.

The rigging was completely revised. They show on the movie the old boat and if you stop the movie you can see the considerable differences. It will remain a boat that can be sailed with a crew or solo.

And for last but not least, in what regards cruising the boat offers a decent storage on the cockpit, more storage inside and a much better interior, a very good one for such a high performance boat.

The price is a nice one, taking into consideration the performances: 155 000 euros (including 20% VAT), price for the Paris boat show.


----------



## PCP

*Elan 360*













The new Elan 360 is not an entirely new boat, it shares its hull with the previous version, the 350. That could be bad news but not in this case. The 350 was a great sailing boat and its hull is still a very modern and fast one. The 360 is just a better and improved 350 and that's good news.

The 360 is slightly lighter, has a better interior, a nicer cabin design and has a S version that is a considerably improved boat: 6% lighter with an epoxy hull, stronger laminated bulkheads and lighter furniture.






SPECIFICATION ELAN 360

Length overall ......................10,60 m | 34'9'' ft 
Hull length........................... 10,60 m | 34'9'' ft 
Length at waterline............... 10,10 m | 33'1'' ft 
Beam.................................. 3,50 m | 11'6'' ft
Draft (standard / performance) 1,50 m / 2,15 m / 2,35 m | 4'9'' / 7'' / 7'8'' ft 
Displacement........................ 5.350 kg | 11.794 lbs 
Ballast (standard / performance) 1385 kg / 1300 kg | 3.053 lbs / 2.866 lbs 
Water capacity..................... 175 l | 42,2 US gal 
Fuel capacity........................ 75 l | 19,8 US gal 
Engine.................................. 21,1 kW / 27,3 HP 
Mainsail................................. 35,91 m2/ 386'4'' sq ft 
Jib........................................ 29,68 m2 | 319'4'' sq ft 
Gennaker............................... 110 m2 | 1.184' sq ft

Boat design category CE A 
Design Humphreys Yacht Design & Elan Design Team

Prices:

http://www.argolis-yacht.com/pdf/Pricelist_E360_01092013.pdf


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: New A35*



PCP said:


> The hull is the same but the changes are so many that this is truly a MkII, a new version.
> 
> One that is not visible is the deck and cockpit, alright we can see that the cabin is different but we cannot see that they are made using an infusion system (it was by injection) and that allowed to save a lot of weight that went almost all to ballast that is more substantial then before giving it a bigger RM (the boat as a very big B/D ratio).
> 
> The draft is bigger with 2.20m and rudder and keel were revised. The rudder is really deep and the keel has been perfected for IRC rating. Probably they will offer another version for the Transaquadra with a torpedo keel and two rudders.
> 
> The boat can have two wheels or a tiller and in that case the traveler changes position going aft.
> 
> The rigging was completely revised. They show on the movie the old boat and if you stop the movie you can see the considerable differences. It will remain a boat that can be sailed with a crew or solo.
> 
> And for last but not least, in what regards cruising the boat offers a decent storage on the cockpit, more storage inside and a much better interior, a very good one for such a high performance boat.
> 
> The price is a nice one, taking into consideration the performances: 155 000 euros (including 20% VAT), price for the Paris boat show.


This is probably the boat I've been waiting for, particularly after I was able to get the grand tour of the current A35 last October. I'd want it in Transquadra configuration, with twin rudders / strut and torpedo bulb keel, and probably with twin wheels rather than a tiller (though would want to see the boat in person first, before making that decision).

On the other hand, even without VAT (being in the U.S.), I estimate a new A35 would set me back about $200K USD, with sails, NKE pilot and electronics, at an exchange rate of 1.36:1. That's a bit unnerving for a 35 ft. boat, but comparable to a J/109 and less than a J/111, not to mention more value than both, in my opinion. Indeed, it is difficult for me to imagine not being completely happy with a new A35, even when compared to the new RM 980, the Django 7.70 and the Malango 888 (or anything in that length range from Elan).

My only hesitation would be an abiding lust for the new Dehler 38 - that extra 3 feet and corresponding interior volume would probably make my wife happier, though I'm hoping when she sees the A35 in person she will see what a big 35 ft. boat it actually is, compared to, say, the J/109 (which made her nervous about offshore passagemaking).

Time to get out a calculator and do some complex financial mathematics.


----------



## PCP

*Re: New A35*



MrPelicano said:


> This is probably the boat I've been waiting for, particularly after I was able to get the grand tour of the current A35 last October. I'd want it in Transquadra configuration, with twin rudders / strut and torpedo bulb keel, and probably with twin wheels rather than a tiller (though would want to see the boat in person first, before making that decision).
> ......
> My only hesitation would be an abiding lust for the new Dehler 38 - that extra 3 feet and corresponding interior volume would probably make my wife happier, though I'm hoping when she sees the A35 in person she will see what a big 35 ft. boat it actually is, compared to, say, the J/109 (which made her nervous about offshore passagemaking).
> 
> Time to get out a calculator and do some complex financial mathematics.


I bet that price is the one for the standard version not the one with a deeper keel and more sail (R), Anyway you can expect a version with two rudders and bulbed keel to be more expensive.

Regarding the Dehler 38 it is about the same, I mean even more the difference between a basic boat and a really fast one. Anyway that difference in LWL would be very important and the Dehler would be probably faster except on a transat.

For racing I am sure the A35 is much better. If your idea is to race solo or with a short crew the best version is the one with the tiller. With crew, the best is the one with the two wheels. On Archambault they developed for solo sailing a system they call the satellite that is something with a spherical shape and all commands there (lines). That sat. stays on the middle of the cockpit on the floor, near the feet of the tiller man.

Kind of surprise me that you don't see the JPK 38 as an option, if you are considering those two boats. You would not get good results on compensated but would be arriving with the first, specially on offshore races.

For racing and cruising probably regarding price a better solution would be a top Salona 38. You can get an IBC boat (top boat) almost for the price that costs a basic Dehler 38 and a Salona 38 IBC can win at the highest level.

If you plan to race the boat on US one of the things you can explore is the potential interest of the different brands in having a boat racing there. If they are really interested they can make a big discount on the boat.

Another option is to look at the possibility of being a dealer in US for Salona or JPK. I don't think they have one and they may be interested...if you are too


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: New A35*



PCP said:


> I bet that price is the one for the standard version not the one with a deeper keel and more sail (R), Anyway you can expect a version with two rudders and bulbed keel to be more expensive.
> 
> Regarding the Dehler 38 it is about the same, I mean even more the difference between a basic boat and a really fast one. Anyway that difference in LWL would be very important and the Dehler would be probably faster except on a transat.
> 
> For racing I am sure the A35 is much better. If your idea is to race solo or with a short crew the best version is the one with the tiller. With crew, the best is the one with the two wheels. On Archambault they developed for solo sailing a system they call the satellite that is something with a spherical shape and all commands there (lines). That sat. stays on the middle of the cockpit on the floor, near the feet of the tiller man.
> 
> Kind of surprise me that you don't see the JPK 38 as an option, if you are considering those two boats. You would not get good results on compensated but would be arriving with the first, specially on offshore races.
> 
> For racing and cruising probably regarding price a better solution would be a top Salona 38. You can get an IBC boat (top boat) almost for the price that costs a basic Dehler 38 and a Salona 38 IBC can win at the highest level.
> 
> If you plan to race the boat on US one of the things you can explore is the potential interest of the different brands in having a boat racing there. If they are really interested they can make a big discount on the boat.
> 
> Another option is to look at the possibility of being a dealer in US for Salona or JPK. I don't think they have one and they may be interested...if you are too


Very good points, as usual, Paulo. I really like the JPK 38FC but price is a problem - €153.000 / $208,000 - so all up cost close to €175.000 / $240,000. That would be a considerable stretch for me. But perhaps with twin rudders and racing keel the A35 would end up costing as much. Of course, that's assuming buying new; I think, like you, I would look for a previously owned model and save some money. The Salona 38 is a nice boat, but again priced new out of my budget (~$238K / €176K). Imagine an IBC version is even more.

My intention is to race and cruise single and doublehanded. Perhaps friends or family might come aboard, but I'm not counting on it, from past experience. But I have close friends in the yacht racing fraternity who would be more than happy to do a DH Transquadra or Bermuda 1-2, etc. I suspect I will barely have resources to do things like that, when the time comes, let alone support a fully crewed racing program.

But, as we've discussed previously, if I only have to think of myself, then suddenly the Pogo 30 looks very nice. In fact, even a Pogo 3 would probably do the trick for my solo racing / cruising dreams. In the past I've let my concerns about what the wife wants influence my boat purchases, and that didn't turn out well. I shouldn't make the same mistake again, if I can help it.

In fact, I'm very eager to see the first Pogo 3 (which I thought was going to be shown at the Paris Nautic this month, but haven't seen any photos or news). That may very well end up being the best option for me. A friend / sailing colleague, here in Long Island Sound, purchased a Pogo 2 (U.S. built) and has been having a great time racing it and day sailing with his family. If I'm smart, I'll take a lesson from him. I've never sailed a Series boat (only Protos) but I've been aboard one of the Spanish-built Zeros and it seemed to have sufficient room for a minimalist like myself.

For now, just trying to survive the snow.


----------



## Edward3

Salona has/did have a dealer in the PNW (Pacific North West)
Washington state and Vancouver 
They were represented in Seattle's boat show
Didn't have a boat, booth only by the in-water show


----------



## PCP

*Re: New A35*



MrPelicano said:


> Very good points, as usual, Paulo. I really like the JPK 38FC but price is a problem - €153.000 / $208,000 - so all up cost close to €175.000 / $240,000. That would be a considerable stretch for me. But perhaps with twin rudders and racing keel the A35 would end up costing as much. Of course, that's assuming buying new; I think, like you, I would look for a previously owned model and save some money. The Salona 38 is a nice boat, but again priced new out of my budget (~$238K / €176K). Imagine an IBC version is even more.
> 
> My intention is to race and cruise single and doublehanded. Perhaps friends or family might come aboard, but I'm not counting on it, from past experience. But I have close friends in the yacht racing fraternity who would be more than happy to do a DH Transquadra or Bermuda 1-2, etc. I suspect I will barely have resources to do things like that, when the time comes, let alone support a fully crewed racing program.
> 
> But, as we've discussed previously, if I only have to think of myself, then suddenly the Pogo 30 looks very nice. In fact, even a Pogo 3 would probably do the trick for my solo racing / cruising dreams. In the past I've let my concerns about what the wife wants influence my boat purchases, and that didn't turn out well. I shouldn't make the same mistake again, if I can help it.
> 
> In fact, I'm very eager to see the first Pogo 3 (which I thought was going to be shown at the Paris Nautic this month, but haven't seen any photos or news). That may very well end up being the best option for me. A friend / sailing colleague, here in Long Island Sound, purchased a Pogo 2 (U.S. built) and has been having a great time racing it and day sailing with his family. If I'm smart, I'll take a lesson from him. I've never sailed a Series boat (only Protos) but I've been aboard one of the Spanish-built Zeros and it seemed to have sufficient room for a minimalist like myself.
> 
> For now, just trying to survive the snow.


That seems a bit to vague tome. If you are thinking in a mini racer and not properly for doing mini-racing why not having a maxi-mini with better performance and a cruising interior?



Marée Haute - Django Ocean Race

I think it is inside your budget and these guys have racing experience and now how to make a race boat. They started doing minis and doing mini racing. They also make a mini racer.

This boat can be classified as A boat and you can legally sail offshore on it if you come to Europe. The interior is quite good for a racing boat since it is the same one used on the cruising version.

With 1500kg and 51m2 of sail upwind and 120m2 downwind this one should fly







Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Edward3 said:


> Salona has/did have a dealer in the PNW (Pacific North West)
> Washington state and Vancouver
> They were represented in Seattle's boat show
> Didn't have a boat, booth only by the in-water show


You mean this year?

Maybe they have again. They had a dealer that sold a single boat in years, a 37. The owner is a member of this forum and says very well about the boat but I had heard that Salona had given up at least with that dealer.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*VK35 an Aluminium performance sailboat.*

We had already talked about VK shipyard and design cabinet. The design Cabinet is Swedish but the boats are made in Poland and that allows for a very impressive price. They talk about 116 000 euros. That is an incredibly good price for a boat like this. That's true that I never managed to see the interior (I hope that price includes one) and that raises some doubts.

The boat is very interesting and the structure is very effective since it is a a cylindrical one that minimizes weight and maximizes strength:



The hull design seems very nice to me:







The boat dimensions are very interesting:

VK35 Technical data

Length overall = 10,6m
Length at waterline = 10,45m
Beam overall = 3,5m
Beam at waterline = 2,6m
Draft = 2,17m
Displacement = 5160kg
Ballast = 1600kg
Engine M3.28 20kW (27.2hp)
Mainsail area = 38.5m2
Genoa area = 36.7m2
Spinnaker area = 110m2

This is a light boat with lots of sail area. This one will not only be a good cruising boat but also will do good in club racing. The interior layout is a bit odd. It has a small saloon and what looks like a small cabin only accessible by the outside trough a small hatch???.



The boat is on the water and it looks good. It is really a shame the lack of creativity in the cabin port lights. It is true that cylindrical structure raises some problems but they could have used less ports and bigger fixed rounded plexiglas panels giving more light to the interior and allowing a more modern look to the boat.


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: A35/Dehler 32 pricing*

I have the A35 pricelist and a complete boat with normal cruising gear, electronics and sails is well above €220000 and appr. €40000 more expensive than a Dehler 38 equipped likewise. Pretty stiff.

Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: A35/Dehler 32 pricing*



JAndersB said:


> I have the A35 pricelist and a complete boat with normal cruising gear, electronics and sails is well above €220000 and appr. €40000 more expensive than a Dehler 38 equipped likewise. Pretty stiff.
> 
> Anders


Not fair to compare the A35 with the cruising Dehler 38. Even the more cruising version of the A35 has similar building specs with the Dehler 38R, not with the less expensive version. The Dehler 38R is hugely more expensive than the cruising Dehler.

Not saying that the cruising Dehler is not an overall better cruising boat than the A35, probably it is but in what regards racing it is miles apart.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## DiasDePlaya

The VK35 looks out of balance, the bow is very high and very low in the water aft.


----------



## Jaramaz

Well, Paul, you say that the VK35 is an interesting, quoting the data



> The boat dimensions are very interesting:
> 
> VK35 Technical data
> 
> Length overall = 10,6m
> Length at waterline = 10,45m
> Beam overall = 3,5m
> Beam at waterline = 2,6m
> Draft = 2,17m
> Displacement = 5160kg
> Ballast = 1600kg
> Engine M3.28 20kW (27.2hp)
> Mainsail area = 38.5m2
> Genoa area = 36.7m2
> Spinnaker area = 110m2
> 
> This is a light boat with lots of sail area. This one will not only be a good cruising boat but also will do good in club racing.


Which is probably is.

But then, I remember the data for the 20+ year old Dehler38 (no, not the new one):

LOA 38 ft (11,40 m)
Beam 3,78 m
Draft 2,05 m
Displacement 5500 kg
keel 49% (2800 kg)
Main 40.5 sqm
genua 1 41 sqm

There been some discussion in this thread what is to be considered "light", as "light" is something new, and very special. It is not. This old Dehler is not even minimalistic. (there are more examples from this period)

/Jaramaz


----------



## PCP

Jaramaz said:


> Well, Paul, you say that the VK35 is an interesting, quoting the data
> 
> Which is probably is.
> 
> But then, I remember the data for the 20+ year old Dehler38 (no, not the new one):
> 
> LOA 38 ft (11,40 m)
> Beam 3,78 m
> Draft 2,05 m
> Displacement 5500 kg
> keel 49% (2800 kg)
> Main 40.5 sqm
> genua 1 41 sqm
> 
> There been some discussion in this thread what is to be considered "light", as "light" is something new, and very special. It is not. This old Dehler is not even minimalistic. (there are more examples from this period)
> /Jaramaz


The Dehler 38 is a 1987 model and yes a very light one for its time. The VK 35 weights several hundreds of kilos less and can only be considered light for a 35ft aluminium boat. It is difficult to make small aluminium boats light. The weight in the aluminium building is not like in fiberglass proportional to size. You can make a 40ft or a 45ft aluminium boat proportionally lighter.

Talking about light boats in modern terms, like the Dehler 38 was light in its days, we would be talking about a JPK 38 (5000kgs) or about the Pogo 10.50 (3600kg) but as we saw here many times the announced weight is not the real sailboat weight but the weight the designer thought it was possible for that boat.

Considering that a modern Dehler 38 weights 7000kg that difference is hard to justify or understand since the new 38 Dehler is a faster boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

DiasDePlaya said:


> The VK35 looks out of balance, the bow is very high and very low in the water aft.


Maybe you are right. Now that you said it I have to agree. Nevertheless it seems to sail very well in very light wind.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sunfast 3600*



robelz said:


> German YACHT magazine tested the SF3600 at 15-20kn: The had 7,1kn at 40° true, over 10 at 90°, 11,5 at 130° and 8,5 at 180...


That compares with what the French had measured:

15K trw downwind with spy asymmetric - 8.9K speed

15K trw 38º of trw - 7.2K

The speed downwind seems to be a bit worse but the French sailed with 15K ahd the Germans with 15/20K . The boat starts to plan with about 14K of wind so those extra 5K of wind seems to be all that is needed for the boat to enter double digit speeds.

Regarding the boat design criteria a nice explanation by Erik Stromberg one of the main man from Jeanneau in what regards sail design and product specifications. Erik is also a good sailor and the last time I saw him he was linked to Jeanneau America. For what I understand there are good chances that Jeanneau decides to commercialize the SF 3600 in the USA.






Also another movie showing around the SF 3600:






and just some movies with the SF3200. The SF3600 will not only be faster but by what Erik says a better boat in crewed racing:


----------



## robelz

*Re: Sunfast 3600*



PCP said:


> That compares with what the French had measured:
> 
> 15K trw downwind with spy asymmetric - 8.9K speed
> 
> 15K trw 38º of trw - 7.2K
> 
> The speed downwind seems to be a bit worse but the French sailed with 15K ahd the Germans with 15/20K .


Did the explain what they mean by "downwind"? It would fit to the 180°-data from YACHT magazine.

Wave height was about half a metre...


----------



## PCP

*Seascape 27*



DiasDePlaya said:


> Maybe the Seascape 27 is the Pogo's little brother


I don't know how it would compare with the Pogo 30. It would be fun a comparative test sail

Seascape, as the name indicates means fun at sea and fun they have even if the boat seems very fast in real time but not so fast on compensated. Who cares about compensated the fun is beating on the water a lot of bigger boats and that is what the Seascape is all about


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: A35/Dehler 32 pricing*



PCP said:


> Not fair to compare the A35 with the cruising Dehler 38. Even the more cruising version of the A35 has similar building specs with the Dehler 38R, not with the less expensive version. The Dehler 38R is hugely more expensive than the cruising Dehler.
> 
> Not saying that the cruising Dehler is not an overall better cruising boat than the A35, probably it is but in what regards racing it is miles apart.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


If you are looking for a boat for cruising I think it is very fair to compare the A35 to the Dehler 38, for instance. And in general I find the A35 very expensive.

Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: A35/Dehler 32 pricing*



JAndersB said:


> If you are looking for a boat for cruising I think it is very fair to compare the A35 to the Dehler 38, for instance. And in general I find the A35 very expensive.
> 
> Anders


Top performance boats are very expensive. Try to see hoe much it costs a top Dehler 38 and you will be surprised.
Sure we can compare in what regards cruising, but the one that is interested in those boats and the one I was talking to is Pelicano and he wants a boat more for racing than for cruising. I agree that for cruising a Dehler 38 makes more sense in what regards price/performance/cruising comfort. In what regards that I think the real competitor is the Salona 38 that offers about the same for less.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: A35/Dehler 32 pricing*



PCP said:


> Top performance boats are very expensive. Try to see hoe much it costs a top Dehler 38 and you will be surprised.
> Sure we can compare in what regards cruising, but the one that is interested in those boats and the one I was talking to is Pelicano and he wants a boat more for racing than for cruising. I agree that for cruising a Dehler 38 makes more sense in what regards price/performance/cruising comfort. In what regards I think the real competitor is the Salona 38 that offers about the same for less.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Quite so. I don't know anything about cruising, only about racing. So even if I am buying a boat that I will cruise sometimes (when I learn how), I still plan to be racing a good deal of the time. And I'm also in a minimalist frame of mind, which means I'm willing to dispense with certain comforts / conveniences in return for performance. That's one reason I'm so favorably inclined toward the Pogo 30, though it is not an inexpensive boat. But we've talked about this before, and the money you spend on a Pogo is money spent on saving weight, and the strength / durability of the hull and appendages for offshore use.

A couple of comments on some of the preceding posts:

1. The Sunfast 3200 racing on SF Bay is not particularly well-sailed. I'm thinking they are sailing PHRF in the YRA Summer Series, which is not very competitive compared to the IRC and One Design regattas in that location. In the video you'll see nobody is hiking very hard, people spending too long on the low side, and a screwed up spinnaker set, etc. They're having fun, of course, but it would be more interesting to see that boat racing in IRC against well-sailed performance cruisers.

2. I've been in love with the Seascape 27 since it was first proposed and the Sam Manuard design revealed. And clearly they have delivered exactly what they promised: a fast, fun, versatile little offshore racer, that can embarass bigger boats head-to-head, even if its rating is a bit painful. In the one video of the Croatia offshore race, the 4 Seascape 27's are not "official" entries, as they didn't meet the minimum length requirement. But they were allowed to race anyway. On the Seascape Facebook page we were speculating that the race organizers were attempting to protect the feelings of big boat owners who spent too much money to be crushed by a little 27ft trailerable swing keeler.  Even though I have been agonizing over RMs, Djangos, A35s, A31s, Pogo 30s (and Pogo 3s), the more I'm thinking about return on investment, the better the Seascape 27 looks. True, it is not Class A certified, but you could certainly bring it into compliance with some additional investment of money - e.g., make it unsinkable, for example. Hoping to get a chance to see one once the two boats coming to the U.S. arrive (assuming I make it to Florida for the Laser mid-winter events).

By my estimations, a well-equipped Seascape 27 would set me back about $115K / €85.000 (or perhaps 10% more than that, factoring in shipping and import duties, etc.). I'll try to find out from one of the U.S. owners with whom I've been communicating.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program: "Interesting Boats".


----------



## PCP

*Fun on a J70*


----------



## PCP

*Sailing News:*


----------



## PCP

*Great: The transat of Benoit Marie*

Don't lose this one. Great movie: The race of the winner of the Mini Transat.


----------



## PCP

*Knierim P33*

The First time I heard about Knierim yachrs was when an almost new 65fter (a Botin design) won the ARC.

It turns out that it is a very specialized German shipyard that for years had made carbon high performance boats by command of some of the more important designers an that know decided to commercialize its own brand : Knierim Yachts.

I know some of the boats built there like the Ker 50 Varuna. They have also build besides that big and fast 65fter and the ker 50, a KNIERIM 50, an ELLIOTT 57S, a 53' Performance Cruiser, a 60' Daysailer e several other mostly big performance cruisers and racers.

The exception regarding big yachts is a very interesting 33fter, the P33, this baby:









The boat is beautiful and when I look at the dimension of this judel/vrolijk design....well, I want to go ut sailing one. Just look at this:

LOA 10 m, beam 3.20m, Draft 2.50m, weight 2780 g, ballast ratio: 54%, sail area upwind 65.4 m2 (SA/D 33.6) sail area downwind 153.8m2.

This is a very stiff and powerful sailboat and not only a nice one. The boat is going to be at Dusseldorf and I want to see this beauty on the flesh or should I say on the carbon?






http://www.knierim-yachtbau.de/downloads/Knierim_P33D.pdf


----------



## PCP

*Van Rietschoten, a sail legend, is not among us anymore.*


----------



## APP Mode

Hello,

I am trying to help some friends in Portugal, they bought a sport sailing boat long time ago a DYAS.










The boat is quite old and needs, and they want to renewed it. I can't find the website of the producer in switzerland. Can you help me?

We are in Portugal and i would like to find a place where we can renovate it.

Thanks for your help !


----------



## PCP

APP Mode said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am trying to help some friends in Portugal, they bought a sport sailing boat long time ago a DYAS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The boat is quite old and needs, and they want to renewed it. I can't find the website of the producer in switzerland. Can you help me?
> 
> We are in Portugal and i would like to find a place where we can renovate it.
> 
> Thanks for your help !


I can try.

I cannot see the photo. It is one of these:

DYAS sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Please give me more information by a PM: Were is the boat?, Size? Where do they want to store it? On an open space? Closed space? they want to renovate it themselves? They want professional help?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Celebrating a year in sailing - An American movie?*

Posted by CNN:


----------



## PCP

*Open 60's (Imoca) new rules regarding the boats for 2014*








PCP said:


> and they go in the right direction: less costs and more reliability.
> 
> The hulls will be free (inside the existent rules) but the keels and masts will be standardized.
> 
> Two kinds of masts will be allowed: fixed with masts spreaders and rotating wing masts, type "tuna" with their big outriggers.
> 
> In what regards the keels they will be more reliable since they will be all carved from a steel block. More expensive and unreliable carbon fiber or welded structures will not be allowed (of course, the bulb will be lead).
> 
> There was talk about the canting keel system to be also standard but it seems that did not went ahead also has the old idea to have the boats using only renewable energies.
> 
> and some figures related with $$$$$$$ and the IMOCA class:
> 
> *816 TV hours and over 400 million euros media value for the past 4 years*
> 
> and that's why it is a great class with beautiful fast boats and a big evolution in what regards design: the average life of a winning boat is of about 4 or 5 years. No money, no new boats, no high tech, no development.


Some very interesting additional information and some corrections:

It seems that after all the canting mechanism will be standard. I read an interesting interview with Vincent Lauriot-Prévost that explains the consequences of these modifications namely about the importance of the elimination of the limitations regarding the heel at 10º.

Without the elimination of that limitation the old boats would be faster than the new ones. The canting system will be more reliable but also heavier as well as the keel foils, now in solid steel, while the faster boats had it made in Carbone or in a kind of void steel structure.

The standardization of masts will also imply a stronger mast but also an heavier one.

All that would give an heavier boat and the small hull improvements risked not to be enough to compensate that. They would have a problem in what regards making faster new boats.

To compensate that they eliminated an old rule (from 1996) that demanded that a boat in its worst configuration, meaning ballast full and the keel on the wrong size, should not have an angle of heel superior to 10º

VLP says that rule does not make sense anymore because it created prejudicial results: For respecting that angle the solution passed for creating water ballast that had no influence on that angle (more nearer the center of the boat). He says that the water ballast needed to achieve that arrived to 4000 liters on a boat that weighted about 7000kgs.

without that limitation it is possible to have boats that need a lot less water ballast, boats that will be lighter while sailing. VLP says that the design of the new boats will pose new challenges. Now they can put the ballast on the more effective position and use less ballast for the same effect. The boats will have a max RM of 25,5 t/m at 25° of Wheel. To manage that there are a lot of options now and the boat design is a lot more open. The bulb will have a max weight of 3 100 kg but it is possible to have less and compensate with water ballasts.

The max beam is a bit reduced (5.85m) and the angle of the canting keel is the same for all: 38º

Juan Kouyoumdjian and VPLP-Verdier have made about the same recomendation to make the new boats faster (the ones that where adopted) while Farr purposed to take measures to make the existent boats slower.

We will see if they manage to make faster boats than the ones from the next generation and it will not be easy since the bulb max weight was bigger (3 500kg) and the max RM at 25º was bigger too (26,5 t/m).

With heavier masts and heavier keel foils and heavier canting keel mechanisms it will be a true challenge to make faster boats.

The only advantage of the new boats will be a more effective position of water ballasts (needing less water) and improvements in what regards hull design and boat balance.

Very interesting stuff and again very interesting developments ahead in what regards boat design: the new boats will be probably much more different between them since there are more options to achieve the same result in what regards Max RM allowed

Jauge IMOCA-Vincent Lauriot-Prévost : « On a supprimé un facteur pervers : le test de gîte à 10°? » - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Celebrating a year in sailing - An American movie?*



PCP said:


> Posted by CNN:


And for all that talent and achievement, ISAF gave the award to 470 sailors? A boat that nobody sails other than a handful of Olympic hopefuls? And these undoubtedly outstanding sailors were more worthy than the man who obliterated the world sailing speed record? Or the man who not only won the most grueling offshore race in the world, but did it on his first try, at 29 years of age, while shaving 7 days off the record? And despite my personal indifference to the Americas Cup, wasn't Jimmy Spithill's accomplishment nothing short of miraculous in the history of yacht racing, coming from an 8 race deficit to win the Cup?

Sometimes I think ISAF is more concerned with kissing the ass of Olympic sponsors than really honoring the sport of sailing (again, taking nothing away from this year's winners). Oh well...


----------



## robelz

*Re: Knierim P33*

Knierim builds in an outstanding quality. The P33 is 3 years old. There is one for sale (2010, 220.000€ incl. VAT, huge sail wardrobe and Nexus NX2 complete)...



PCP said:


> The First time I heard about Knierim yachrs was when an almost new 65fter (a Botin design) won the ARC.
> 
> It turns out that it is a very specialized German shipyard that for years had made carbon high performance boats by command of some of the more important designers an that know decided to commercialize its own brand : Knierim Yachts.
> 
> I know some of the boats built there like the Ker 50 Varuna. They have also build besides that big and fast 65fter and the ker 50, a KNIERIM 50, an ELLIOTT 57S, a 53' Performance Cruiser, a 60' Daysailer e several other mostly big performance cruisers and racers.
> 
> The exception regarding big yachts is a very interesting 33fter, the P33, this baby:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The boat is beautiful and when I look at the dimension of this judel/vrolijk design....well, I want to go ut sailing one. Just look at this:
> 
> LOA 10 m, beam 3.20m, Draft 2.50m, weight 2780 g, ballast ratio: 54%, sail area upwind 65.4 m2 (SA/D 33.6) sail area downwind 153.8m2.
> 
> This is a very stiff and powerful sailboat and not only a nice one. The boat is going to be at Dusseldorf and I want to see this beauty on the flesh or should I say on the carbon?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.knierim-yachtbau.de/downloads/Knierim_P33D.pdf


----------



## PCP

*Re: Celebrating a year in sailing - An American movie?*



MrPelicano said:


> And for all that talent and achievement, ISAF gave the award to 470 sailors? A boat that nobody sails other than a handful of Olympic hopefuls? And these undoubtedly outstanding sailors were more worthy than the man who obliterated the world sailing speed record? Or the man who not only won the most grueling offshore race in the world, but did it on his first try, at 29 years of age, while shaving 7 days off the record? And despite my personal indifference to the Americas Cup, wasn't Jimmy Spithill's accomplishment nothing short of miraculous in the history of yacht racing, coming from an 8 race deficit to win the Cup?
> 
> Sometimes I think ISAF is more concerned with kissing the ass of Olympic sponsors than really honoring the sport of sailing (again, taking nothing away from this year's winners). Oh well...


ISAF has a problem in what concerns a vision of sail as a sport. The many inside conflicting interests and a lack of a structure with different levels of importance, in what regards sail sport, make it impossible for them to have a significant role in what regards the development of sail as a world wide major sport

Compare for example ISAF with other wide world federations regarding main world wide sports with different types of series inside a main body: FIA or FIM for instance.

Regarding cars and FIA the attribution of the prize for the world's best sailor to a 470 sailor would be like to attribute that price in what regards car racing to a Kart driver instead to a formula 1 or to a WRC driver. It does not make any sense and it only means how poorly ISAF is organized to promote sail as a world wide sport.

If you talk about a world wide sport you have to define clearly levels of championships and define what are the top championships the ones were all the best sailors want to be involved in but very few (only the best) are chosen and have a place there. Obviously the best world sailor has to come from one of those championships and not from minor championships, even if they are world ones.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*The Oracle victory on the AC and Spithill*



MrPelicano said:


> ... And despite my personal indifference to the Americas Cup, wasn't Jimmy Spithill's accomplishment nothing short of miraculous in the history of yacht racing, coming from an 8 race deficit to win the Cup?
> 
> ...


Regarding Spithill achievement on the AC being a sportive one, I don't think so. In fact at the time I said that I did not believed that all those straight victories, after the Oracle boat have being out-sailed consistently by the NZ boat, had to do with nothing but with anything that was introduced in the American boat regarding foil control, something that the NZ boat didn't have.

Today I know that I was right, so, given the big difference that created on the two competing boats Spithill, that is a top sailor, had no trouble in beating the NZ team, but it was not a fair fight nor a big sportive achievement.

I am talking about this:







This had been accepted by the jury and the Oracle team said with a lot of hypocrisy that the NZ team, instead of filling a protest should have developed a similar system. of course they forget that they presented the system to the jury in August giving no time or chance to the NZ team to develop something similar since they were busy racing winning the right to be the defying team and the main races with oracle were just days away.

For maintaining fairness the jury should have refused that system presented almost at the beginning of the main event: The races between the defender and the challenger.

It was not Spithill that have beaten Dean Barker but that hydraulic/electric system that only they had.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: The Oracle victory on the AC and Spithill*



PCP said:


> Regarding Spithill achievement on the AC being a sportive one, I don't think so. In fact at the time I said that I did not believed that all those straight victories, after the Oracle boat have being out-sailed consistently by the NZ boat, had to do with nothing but with anything that was introduced in the American boat regarding foil control, something that the NZ boat didn't have.
> 
> Today I know that I was right, so, given the big difference that created on the two competing boats Spithill, that is a top sailor, had no trouble in beating the NZ team, but it was not a fair fight nor a big sportive achievement.
> 
> This had been accepted by the jury and the Oracle team said with a lot of hypocrisy that the NZ team, instead of filling a protest should have developed a similar system. of course they forget that they presented the system to the jury in August giving no time or chance to the NZ team to develop something similar since they were busy racing winning the right to be the defying team and the main races with oracle were just days away.
> 
> For maintaining fairness the jury should have refused that system presented almost at the beginning of the main event: The races between the defender and the challenger.
> 
> It was not Spithill that have beaten Dean Barker but that hydraulic/electric system that only they had.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


With all due respect, when you know you have a speed disadvantage in match racing, then you have to resort to a different strategy to win. And this is where I think Spithill deserves credit... or perhaps, Dean Barker deserves somce criticism. If you are ETNZ and you suddenly realize your competitor is faster, you need to get extremely aggressive to draw penalties and force the comeptition to make mistakes. Either Barker wasn't aggressive enough, or Spithill (and Ainslie / Slingsby) did a superb job of not picking up fouls or making mistakes. My 2 cents.

But, as I said, it was just an example and the AC isn't my cup of tea anyway. And let me add that I've got nothing against recognizing Olympic dinghy sailors as ISAF sailors of the year - e.g., Scheidt and Ainslie both deserved that recognition, given the magnitude of their achievements in that venue. But both of those sailors are at the top of the sport regardless of what they're sailing - e.g., Scheidt in Stars, Ainslie in AC45s (and just about everything else he jumps aboard). But totally agree that ISAF doesn't have its act together in general, perhaps because it doesn't have access to the big $$$ that auto racing and football do (and other international sports we could mention - e.g., FIBA).

BTW, any sighting of the Pogo 3 which was supposed to be on display at Paris Nautique? I can't find any reference to it on the PN or Structures' sites, and Googling for photos comes up with nothing other than 3D renderings.


----------



## PCP

*Paris boat show*



MrPelicano said:


> ....
> BTW, any sighting of the Pogo 3 which was supposed to be on display at Paris Nautique? I can't find any reference to it on the PN or Structures' sites, and Googling for photos comes up with nothing other than 3D renderings.


You said already that but I don't think the Pogo 3 was on the Mautic of Paris. In fact I never saw a Pogo there: They simply don't go with their boats to the Nautic. Too expensive and they prefer to make the boats as inexpensive as they can. The max I had saw from Pogo on past Paris boat shows were miniatures of the boats

Here you can see a presentation of new sailboats on the Paris boat show. Not a shadow of a Pogo, including the Pogo 30.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

ISAF - AC:
It seems clear also to me that the 8-0 comeback of ORACLE was essentially a technical achievement. Since they did'nt break the rules, it wasn't unfair in this hightech event. But I certainly agree this was not a major sportive achievement.

POGO:
Paulo is right: Structures only exposes models on dry boatshows, if they participate anyway. 
The (floating) Grand Pavois in the nearby La Rochelle is where real scale Pogo's will be visible, otherwise you will need to visit the yard itself in Combrit.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Husar 28 and 42*

Never posted about them probably becuase the 28 was already around (2008) when I started this thread but it is one of the few boats from that vintage that still looks like a brand new model and that's pretty amazing:







and when that happens normally that means that the boat is a great design. The H28 is a daysailor/weekend cruiser with racing potential, the designers, like the boat are Polish, Tymon Butkiewicz and industrial designer Wojciech Wesolek. This is certainly not the typical Polish boat even if the price is remarkably low for the type of boat.

It has interesting dimensions:

LOA : 8 . 5 5 m 
LWL : 7 . 9 7 m 
Beam B: 2 . 5 9 m 
Draft: 1 . 9 0 / 0 . 8 0 m (or fixed keel with 1.90m)
Displacement : 2 . 5 00 kg
Ballast : 1 .350 kg
Electric Engine : 1 . 8 k W 
Berths : 4 
Cabin Height : 1 . 5 5 m 
Sail Area : 51 m 2

http://yfm.yachtfocus.com/uploads/nieuwe-boten/1262/documenten/huzar_28_brochure.pdf






The 42 is a new one, still being built and it is also a nice boat (I like more the little one) with very interesting dimensions: Both are certainly very fast boats... very fast with style at a moderate price? I wonder why they don't sell more. Interesting boats no doubt.





Length overall .....12.80 m
Water line length..11.30 m
Beam..................3.60 m
Draught...............2.50 / 2.20 m
Sails area.............99 m2
Gennaker area.......190 m2
Displacement.........6.7 t
Ballast..................3.4 t 
Design category......A


----------



## robelz

I do not know the price tag for the 28 but the 42 will be pretty expensive especially for a polish boat (about 400k€)..


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> I do not know the price tag for the 28 but the 42 will be pretty expensive especially for a polish boat (about 400k€)..


These boats have to be expensive and all is relative. Less expensive than a Brenta for sure.

Regarding the Husar 28 I saw this price but it should be a mistake. This boat cannot cost this price. It has to be more expensive

Custom Line - Huzar 28 Sailboat for sale in Germany :: Boatshop24

http://www.scanboat.com/uk/BoatSaleAdvert.asp?strSagsnr=13040835

If it cost this price then it is not expensive at all for the quality.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Another one on foils: Nacra F20*


----------



## PCP

*When the Bora blows...*


----------



## capt vimes

Bora... Always good for some stress... 
My favorite tough weather sailing video, even if older...


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Look this! A MOD 70 in a Melges 24 size.


----------



## PCP

*15 years in hull design*



capt vimes said:


> Bora... Always good for some stress...
> My favorite tough weather sailing video, even if older...
> Rough Weather Sailing - BT Global Challenge 2000 - YouTube


Yes, not weather for amateurs. I love those guys sitting on a rail of a 40 000kg boat on those conditions. We can also see the differences in what regards boat design in 15 years and they are quite impressive between the boats from the Challenge and Clipper boats):

From a narrow 72ft boat with weight of 38 000kg ,a beam of 5.5m, a draft of 3.0m and a B/D ratio of of 27% we passed to a 75.6ft boat with less overhangs, more beam but mostly a larger transom, lighter, the same draft and with a superior stability: LOA 75'6'', weight 31 190kg, beam 5.65m, B/D ratio of 39%. The draft is the same but the newer boat has a more efficient keel that allows for a lower keel CG (independently of the ballast, that is also bigger) and that translates in a bigger RM provided by the more modern keel.

This will make not only for a faster boat but also for a more seaworthy one with more stability and much less prone to pitch the frightening way the older boat does on bad weather, like you can see on the video.

The pitch movement will be much smaller due to the less overhang and superior buoyancy at the bow, at the transom and for a much more centered weight on the boat due mainly to the bigger ballast ratio and different building materials (steel versus GRP).

Many times sailors associate a superior seaworthiness regarding older hull shapes that they call " less extreme" but that is not generically true.

That big pitch movement is responsible for much of the hardship that we see on the video: When the boat has the bow fully buried at the water it is at the mercy of the next wave that just sweep the deck and cockpit.

A visual comparison between the two boats that it is a good reference in what regards hull evolution on the last 15 years, also look at the keel and rudders:


----------



## PCP

*Diam 24*



DiasDePlaya said:


> Look this! A MOD 70 in a Melges 24 size.


Here with more wind:






Very impressive. With 6/10K the boat is doing what? 12/13K speed?

Very interesting concept, well coming from VPLP it would not to be expected less.

Le concept diam 24 one design : naviguer autrement | diam24onedesign


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Another one on foils: Nacra F20*

It's interesting to contrast this video from the 2013 Jabuka Race with the one Paulo posted earlier, featuring the Seascape 27's in the same race. Here you have a Czech Dufour 34 ("Paula") reefing all the way down to bare poles at one point, versus the footage we saw of the Seascapes where we didn't see that at all. Perhaps they left it off their video, but I suspect if they encountered such rough conditions they would have wanted to show it.

I'm wondering if maybe the Dufour 34 didn't have more than 2 reef points on the main or something? And where was the storm trysail? Maybe they just didn't want to bother and went to bare poles to keep things comfortable - i.e., not hard core racers. 

And, indeed, when you look at the results it tells the true story, I think, and speaks even more highly of the offshore capabilities of the Seascape 27. A look at the final results out of 61 boats (with 3 DNF):

Seascape 27's - 15, 16, 25, 26
Dufour 34 - 53

By the way, the two Seascapes that were 15 and 16 finished 27 seconds apart and only 45 minutes behind the overall winner, an Akilaria RC2! 

Amazing boats.

EDIT: Paulo pointed out in a later post that the video of the Bora is not from the Jabuka Race itself, but from the delivery of the Dufour 34 "Paula", when the crew encountered windspeeds of 50+ knots. So of course they were not in racing mode and going with bare poles was a very prudent decision. No need to break something or risk crew injury on a delivery (or even racing, for that matter). - MrP


----------



## MrPelicano

capt vimes said:


> Bora... Always good for some stress...
> My favorite tough weather sailing video, even if older...
> Rough Weather Sailing - BT Global Challenge 2000 - YouTube


I've never been offshore in conditions this rough, but I have raced in conditions with winds > 40 knots and big waves at night. We had the on-watch crew on the rail of a J/120, in addition to one person at the helm and one trimming main when we took a wave that swept everyone off the rail and bent a lifeline stanchion. At that point we sent everyone below except the driver (me), the main trimmer, and the bowman (who periodically went to the low side to vomit). 

At dawn we finally gave up and sought refuge in the closest harbor we could fetch, where we found a number of boats that wisely bailed out much earlier than we did. Probably my scariest experience racing.

Have only run under bare poles once before, in a J/105 in 30-40 knots and 10-12 foot seas off California's Pt. Concepcion. In that case, we had torn our roller-furling jib and only had two reef points on the main (which weren't rigged because we stupidly imagined we wouldn't need them). Even under bare poles we were making about 6 knots VMG downwind (in the right direction at least), which is consistent with what it looked like the Dufour 34 "Paula" was doing in the earlier video, under bare poles. When the breeze dropped into the low 20's we put up the .75 oz A-2 and full main and continued racing. One other J/105 was dismasted that evening nearby, but motored safely to port.

I don't enjoy rough weather but I'm not nearly as afraid as I was the first few times. If you trust your boat it makes a huge difference, and J Boats are built pretty tough.


----------



## capt vimes

I never sailed in conditions like this... Force 8 winds for say 12ish hours was the maximum i ever experienced...
But there was a pretty scary, even if very brief, moment i will never forget and which conditioned me in some ways...
After a front went through, we left the marina because we had a schedule to keep... The wind has almost completely seized and running under motor we drove in a tight angle to the waves built by the force 9-10 winds from previously...
A small breaker put our bow off the waves, i tried to correct and looked to the side, when i just saw a wall of water with a foaming crest rising well above the first spreaders running towards us...
This freak wave just picked up the boat, threw it on its side and dropped us after it had washed over us...
And that bloody wave came out of nowhere only 4-5 nm away from the coast...
This taught me one thing: never sail on a multihull!


----------



## PCP

*Bora*



MrPelicano said:


> It's interesting to contrast this video from the 2013 Jabuka Race with the one Paulo posted earlier, featuring the Seascape 27's in the same race. Here you have a Czech Dufour 34 ("Paula") reefing all the way down to bare poles at one point, versus the footage we saw of the Seascapes where we didn't see that at all. Perhaps they left it off their video, but I suspect if they encountered such rough conditions they would have wanted to show it.
> 
> I'm wondering if maybe the Dufour 34 didn't have more than 2 reef points on the main or something? And where was the storm trysail? Maybe they just didn't want to bother and went to bare poles to keep things comfortable - i.e., not hard core racers.
> 
> And, indeed, when you look at the results it tells the true story, I think, and speaks even more highly of the offshore capabilities of the Seascape 27. A look at the final results out of 61 boats (with 3 DNF):
> 
> Seascape 27's - 15, 16, 25, 26
> Dufour 34 - 53
> 
> By the way, the two Seascapes that were 15 and 16 finished 27 seconds apart and only 45 minutes behind the overall winner, an Akilaria RC2!
> 
> Amazing boats.


That video with a Bora was not on the day the race took place. On the race it was windy but not that much. They say:

*Boat tranfer from Portorož to Vodice for Jabuka Race 2013. Heavy weather conditions: strong "bora" wind reaching strength of 50 kts. In Croatia, cyclone was called Teodor and reached maximum of 90 kts in Kvarner Gulf.
*






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: 15 years in hull design*



G1000 said:


> Been there, done that. Actually it was cat 1 hurricane during Transat 2002. Real fun starts at night and 80kn winds  Hurricane Gustav (2002) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Paul, you are a mystery man and also a man of few words.

What transat are you talking about?

I am sure we all would like to hear the story...because 80k at sea gives a good story, I am sure.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> I never sailed in conditions like this... Force 8 winds for say 12ish hours was the maximum i ever experienced...
> But there was a pretty scary, even if very brief, moment i will never forget and which conditioned me in some ways...
> After a front went through, we left the marina because we had a schedule to keep... The wind has almost completely seized and running under motor we drove in a tight angle to the waves built by the force 9-10 winds from previously...
> A small breaker put our bow off the waves, i tried to correct and looked to the side, when i just saw a wall of water with a foaming crest rising well above the first spreaders running towards us...
> This freak wave just picked up the boat, threw it on its side and dropped us after it had washed over us...
> And that bloody wave came out of nowhere only 4-5 nm away from the coast...
> This taught me one thing: never sail on a multihull!


Actually multihulls can take much bigger breaking waves than similarly sized monohulls without capsizing. they have a much bigger stability and also a much better dynamic stability. The problem with multihulls is freak gusts, not freak waves unless they come also with freak winds

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Bora*



PCP said:


> That video with a Bora was not on the day the race took place. On the race it was windy but not that much. They say:
> 
> *Boat tranfer from Portorož to Vodice for Jabuka Race 2013. Heavy weather conditions: strong "bora" wind reaching strength of 50 kts. In Croatia, cyclone was called Teodor and reached maximum of 90 kts in Kvarner Gulf.
> *
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Windspeed of 50+ knots is a good reason to be under bare poles, if you're doing a delivery. No argument from me. 

But I take it the second video is from the Jabuka Race itself? But not the same boat I believe (doesn't look like a Dufour 34 - an older boat perhaps?). Here we see them go with the storm trysail and what looks like a #4 headsail. Some accounts I read had the windspeed as high as 30 knots, during parts of the race. But that seems to me to call for a double reefed mainsail and #4 headsail, although admittedly they were sailing without a full crew.

From the several videos I've seen, I think the key to doing well in this race was having the correct sail combinations available to suit the changing conditions. In this video, when the boats were 2-sail reaching, I suspect the Seascapes and the Akilaria were able to go with a Code 0 or reaching gennaker and staysail, not simply a #2 or #3 jib. That makes a huge difference, particularly if you've got a really stiff boat.

Also suspect that many of the boats are charters - e.g., the Elan 350 class - or casual racers, not really hardcore. Some of the top finishers had Cat 3 professionals on board (the overall winner "Ola" had an IMS European Champion tactician aboard, for example). I guess what I'm saying is that it just doesn't look like the boats in these videos are being sailed hard - except the top 2 Seascapes.

Which makes you wonder: Is the owner of a First 45 feeling good about himself when he has just been crushed by a €100K 27-foot, swing keel trailer sailor? Hey, being spanked by an Akilaria RC2 not a problem - similar price point and it's a high-powered race boat. Perhaps that First 45 owner is happy because everyone on aboard was comfortable and got a hot shower, comfy berth, and microwave popcorn on watch. The Seascape guys got some candy bars and maybe hot coffee.


----------



## PCP

*Jabuka regatta*

Yes you are right. I have posted the movies because they are nice but this is a 3rd rate race.

That's why I didn't bother to see the boat relative times. It only makes sense on top races were you know that there are many well sailed boats. Here, on this type of Croatia races, many guys just charter boats to race and have fun, they are just a bunch of friends not a properly trained crew and they don't know that particular boat, even if they have sailed one similar.

It seems to me that it is blowing more than 30K by the First 45 sail configuration. Maybe 35/40K?

Next one where it will make sense to look at comparative performances is the Sydney Hobart where for several years the First 40 have proved consistently faster than the class40. Lots of upwind sailing in big seas are just not the ideal playground for a class40, but it is perfect for a relatively heavy and narrower boat like the First.

Last year the winner on compensated and by far the best of the production smaller boats was a Sydney 43 that made a hell of the race. I like a lot that boat and I am very curious about the 37ft. I believe that if the Sydney 43 sell in Europe and I believe it will sell, they produce the 37.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Jabuka regatta*



PCP said:


> Yes you are right. I have posted the movies because they are nice but this is a 3rd rate race.
> 
> That's why I didn't bother to see the boat relative times. It only makes sense on top races were you know that there are many well sailed boats. Here, on this type of Croatia races, many guys just charter boats to race and have fun, they are just a bunch of friends not a properly trained crew and they don't know that particular boat, even if they have sailed one similar.
> 
> It seems to me that it is blowing more than 30K by the First 45 sail configuration. Maybe 35/40K?
> 
> Next one where it will make sense to look at comparative performances is the Sydney Hobart where for several years the First 40 have proved consistently faster than the class40. Lots of upwind sailing in big seas are just not the ideal playground for a class40, but it is perfect for a relatively heavy and narrower boat like the First.
> 
> Last year the winner on compensated and by far the best of the production smaller boats was a Sydney 43 that made a hell of the race. I like a lot that boat and I am very curious about the 37ft. I believe that if the Sydney 43 sell in Europe and I believe it will sell, they produce the 37.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Thanks for confirming what I suspected about the Jabuka Race. It was pretty obvious from the videos but you can't always tell.

As for the Sydney 43, it is an amazing looking boat, as I've come to expect from Jason Ker, and obviously a potent offshore weapon in the right hands. The Sydney-Hobart should be interesting this year, particularly for line honors. Obviously Wild Oats will be a favorite, but depending on the conditions the VO70 "Black Jack" could very well be a spoiler, as could the new Carkeek Mini-Maxi "Ichi Ban". "Black Jack" was only 5m 49s behind "Wild Oats" and 3m 25s behind "Perpetual Loyal" in the SOLAS Big Boat raace a couple weekends ago, so it's not out of the realm of possibility to take line honors.

Wish there was better video coverage of the Sydney-Hobart, along the lines of the Fastnet Race. Seems like it would be relatively easy to do, considering a good deal of the race is near offshore, within easy reach of planes and helicopters. Oh well... it's only yacht racing, after all, not something deserving of media coverage, like golf or beach volleyball.


----------



## PCP

*2013 SOLAS Big Boat Challenge*

and since we are talking about the Sydney-Hobart have a look at the "warm up" the 2013 SOLAS Big Boat Challenge:






Lots of interesting boats this year, the "old" Vor 70 Grupama now renamed "Giacomo", Telefonica Vor70 now renamed Black Jack a new Ichi Ban, a brand new Carkeek 60 and the old Rambler now renamed "LOYAL". I believe that if someone is able to beat Wild Oats it will be this one. I don't believe Wild Thing can do it. And among the fast boat we will have the little Varuna a Ker 51 and the not so little Beau Geste a Botin 80fter.

At this first confrontation wild oats won but not for much:

1-WILD OATS XI	.......01:10 :10	
2-PERPETUAL LOYAL...01:12:34	
3-BLACK JACK............01:15:59	
4-WILD THING...........01:17:29	
5-GIACOMO	..............01:23:54	
6-ICHI BAN...............01:26:05

The first 6 were really close. It seems that this year the Hobart is going to be very interesting!!!!!

Among the small boats several A40 and several First 40. I bet that on the particular conditions of the Hobarth the best First will beat the best A40. A pity that the guys that used to race with a 40class racer will not be there this year, as well as none other. I guess they know this is not the type of race that suits them

The Yachts - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013

Two days for the start.


----------



## PCP

*Merry Christmas*

Last post before Christmas to wish you all and your families a great time with the family on the celebration of these holy days that for me, more than a religious celebration are a family celebration. Family Christmas this year is in my house so I am going to be busy on the next days.

A great Christmas to all,
:thewave::thewave::thewave::thewave:
to the ones that post and the much more that follow this thread without participating.

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Cheminees Poujolat sunk last night on its way home from the TJV. Stamm and his Coskipper were rescued by a container ship heading to Rotterdam.


----------



## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> Cheminees Poujolat sunk last night on its way home from the TJV. Stamm and his Coskipper were rescued by a container ship heading to Rotterdam.


As disappointing as that boat has been, perhaps this will all work out for the best for Bernard Stamm. Very relieved to hear that the crew is safe. It is never a good thing when a boat sinks offshore (or anywhere else, for that matter).


----------



## Edward3

Sydney Hobart
13:1 money on BOTIN 80 BEAU GESTE

The new boat every Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race competitor aiming for line honours and overall glory has been waiting to see has arrived in town and sailing master Gavin Brady warns “We’ve arrived ready and probably more prepared than anyone else.”

Beau Geste, the 80 foot Botin design that everyone is talking about, was ordered by Hong Kong business identity, Karl Kwok, following the near-demise of his previous Beau Geste.

Brady and the Rolex Sydney Hobart race crew, minus Kwok, sailed the yacht from New Zealand into Sydney Harbour last evening after leaving Auckland on Tuesday. Brady was bemused when people questioned: “What took you so long?”

The Kiwi sailor, whose resume includes five America’s Cups, 10 Hobarts and Volvo Ocean Races and match racing titles, said: “We didn’t deliver the boat to Sydney for the race, we raced the 1400 nautical miles here – that’s two and a half Hobarts,” he said of the Cruising Yacht Club of Australia’s annual 628 nautical mile race.

“We are probably the most prepared yacht entered in the race.”

“We tested everything; our watch systems, sail changes, we put reefs in the main, shook them out, we did everything we would normally do racing a boat, down to getting the milk right in people’s tea.”

Brady also reminded us that he and owner/skipper Karl Kwok have sailed together so long: “We can read each other like a book, we have our communication down pat; things like our terminology. And with Steve Hayles in the nav station – the three of us, along with the rest of the crew, are ready,” he said.

“Quite frankly, we’re ready and we’re confident. We got half way here, and in the Tasman the wind died, then it picked up. So we did windward leewards. One minute we were pointing at New Caledonia, the next at Hobart. It was the perfect practice. It was open-ocean and no wind shifts. It doesn’t get any better than that.”

Brady said that owners should take advantage of racing from their home port to Sydney for the start, just as the Beau Geste crew has done, “because that’s the best preparation you can do for the race.”

Beau Geste arrived in Australia with no damage on her maiden voyage. “The worst that happened to us was hitting a sunfish 20 minutes into our voyage – hopefully it was the last one. We left it with a headache,” Brady said.

Asked what his hopes for the Rolex Sydney Hobart are, Brady said, “I hope when I look back after the race, standing at Constitution Dock in Hobart that I’ll be able to say, ‘We did the best preparation possible and it paid off.” 

The Rolex Sydney Hobart, will be broadcast live on the Seven Network throughout Australia, the Australia Network throughout the Asia Pacific Region and webcast live to a global audience on Yahoo!7 from 12.30pm until 2.00pm on Boxing Day.


----------



## MrPelicano

Edward3 said:


> Sydney Hobart
> 13:1 money on BOTIN 80 BEAU GESTE
> 
> The new boat every Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race competitor aiming for line honours and overall glory has been waiting to see has arrived in town and sailing master Gavin Brady warns "We've arrived ready and probably more prepared than anyone else."
> 
> Beau Geste, the 80 foot Botin design that everyone is talking about, was ordered by Hong Kong business identity, Karl Kwok, following the near-demise of his previous Beau Geste.
> 
> Brady and the Rolex Sydney Hobart race crew, minus Kwok, sailed the yacht from New Zealand into Sydney Harbour last evening after leaving Auckland on Tuesday. Brady was bemused when people questioned: "What took you so long?"
> 
> The Kiwi sailor, whose resume includes five America's Cups, 10 Hobarts and Volvo Ocean Races and match racing titles, said: "We didn't deliver the boat to Sydney for the race, we raced the 1400 nautical miles here - that's two and a half Hobarts," he said of the Cruising Yacht Club of Australia's annual 628 nautical mile race.
> 
> "We are probably the most prepared yacht entered in the race."
> 
> "We tested everything; our watch systems, sail changes, we put reefs in the main, shook them out, we did everything we would normally do racing a boat, down to getting the milk right in people's tea."
> 
> Brady also reminded us that he and owner/skipper Karl Kwok have sailed together so long: "We can read each other like a book, we have our communication down pat; things like our terminology. And with Steve Hayles in the nav station - the three of us, along with the rest of the crew, are ready," he said.
> 
> "Quite frankly, we're ready and we're confident. We got half way here, and in the Tasman the wind died, then it picked up. So we did windward leewards. One minute we were pointing at New Caledonia, the next at Hobart. It was the perfect practice. It was open-ocean and no wind shifts. It doesn't get any better than that."
> 
> Brady said that owners should take advantage of racing from their home port to Sydney for the start, just as the Beau Geste crew has done, "because that's the best preparation you can do for the race."
> 
> Beau Geste arrived in Australia with no damage on her maiden voyage. "The worst that happened to us was hitting a sunfish 20 minutes into our voyage - hopefully it was the last one. We left it with a headache," Brady said.
> 
> Asked what his hopes for the Rolex Sydney Hobart are, Brady said, "I hope when I look back after the race, standing at Constitution Dock in Hobart that I'll be able to say, 'We did the best preparation possible and it paid off."
> 
> The Rolex Sydney Hobart, will be broadcast live on the Seven Network throughout Australia, the Australia Network throughout the Asia Pacific Region and webcast live to a global audience on Yahoo!7 from 12.30pm until 2.00pm on Boxing Day.


Well, so we're getting 90 minutes of web coverage of the start. And presumably someone with a camera will be in Hobart for the finish. In between, what exactly are we going to get? Just the position tracker? Any video feeds? C'mon Rolex and race organizers! You can do better.


----------



## robelz

MrPelicano said:


> As disappointing as that boat has been...:


Has it? I mean it was never a dominator but always close to the lead... And Stamm to me doesn't seem to be one of the best sailors in the world...

Meanwhile Riechers gave his 6yo Farr designed Open 60 to VPLP and they redesigned the whole front and gave it much more volume: Barcelona World Race: Jörg Riechers über den Umbau des neuen 60ers ?Mare? | SegelReporter

Even if you don't understand German you will understand the pictures...


----------



## capt vimes

robelz said:


> Cheminees Poujolat sunk last night on its way home from the TJV. Stamm and his Coskipper were rescued by a container ship heading to Rotterdam.


Oh ****... Good to hear they are safe...
Untergang: Bernhard Stamm überlebt knapp ? ?Cheminées Poujoulat? verloren | SegelReporter

That must have been a heck of a storm and really awful waves...
I mean, those boats are build to withstand the nasiest stuff the southern ocean can throw at them and then the hull just breaks? 

I won't comment on stamms abilities and only would say, that he had a lot of technical issues in the last vendee globes...


----------



## MrPelicano

capt vimes said:


> Oh ****... Good to hear they are safe...
> Untergang: Bernhard Stamm überlebt knapp ? ?Cheminées Poujoulat? verloren | SegelReporter
> 
> That must have been a heck of a storm and really awful waves...
> I mean, those boats are build to withstand the nasiest stuff the southern ocean can throw at them and then the hull just breaks?
> 
> I won't comment on stamms abilities and only would say, that he had a lot of technical issues in the last vendee globes...


I'm not saying the Juan K design was the problem, but Stamm was unhappy with a number of things before the start of the last Vendée, though he did not always name specific things. I got the impression that there were build quality problems and that certain aspects of the design were not to his liking - probably with respect to cockpit layout, hardware choices, etc.

If the boat broke apart during a delivery (very fortunate this didn't happen during the race itself), one has to wonder about hull structural design and build quality. But we will wait for the formal report to learn more about what happened.

My sense of Stamm, as a skipper, is that he is able to push his boats very hard but sometimes doesn't seem to realize that slower can be better; there are times when you need to back off and preserve the boat rather than keep pushing. In the last Vendée, he and Jean Pierre Dick just missed catching the front that enabled Armel and François to break away from the pack, and then Stamm's boat continued to break, pretty much ending his race.

Dick, of course, was phenomenal, fighting all the way and then bringing his boat across the finish line without a keel. Chapeau to that! 

I was watching some of the footage of the Macif / BanquePop match race in the Southern Ocean from 2012. Some have claimed that Gabart is a machine, lacking in emotion, but his emotion was prominently on display during those days when he and Le Cléac'h were going at it hammer-and-tongs all the way around Cape Horn and up the South Atlantic. At least I could feel his stress and anxiety and manic intensity coming across very powerfully. Even thinking about those scenes gives me shivers. 

Really can't wait until the next one.


----------



## PCP

*Rescue of Samm and Damien*



robelz said:


> Cheminees Poujolat sunk last night on its way home from the TJV. Stamm and his Coskipper were rescued by a container ship heading to Rotterdam.


Well, consider this my Christmas gift to all

I read this fantastic story about the rescue told by Stamm himself and felt that it was really a pity to be only accessible to the ones that can read French, since the automatic translation was really bad. So, there it is for all what I hope is a decent translation:

*Bernard Stamm and Damien Guillou were recovered by a Norwegian freighter on Monday around 7:30 am, 180 Miles off Brest when they brought back Cheminées Poujoulat fromAzores to France. Both men saw the IMOCA monohull break into two , then slowly sinking and they owe their survival to the effectiveness of crew of the freighter Star Isfjord. *

Naufrage du 60 IMOCA Cheminées Poujoulat - Bernard Stamm : « Le bateau s?est cassé en deux? » - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles

* "Damien and I, we were 200 miles from the tip of Cornwall and 180 nautical Brest . We were a little ahead of the front , sailing downwind. There were between 43 and 45 knots but it was manageable. We were prepared for this gale . We were under storm jib , with four reefs in the mainsail. Clearly, we really had the handbrake on, but in a wave, the boat broke in two, just near the movable foils.

The mast did not fall immediately. We quickly closed all boat bulkheads and them the mast fell to the transom. We asked very quickly for help and organized the survival conditions aboard.

We prepare things on the eventuality of having to leave the boat. The sea was huge so we tried to assess the risk of the boat degradation to the point of being better to abandon it. We tried to take away the mast but we did not succeed. It was really too dangerous to try to do that. However, we managed to make it fall a bit more in the water and that stop it from beating viciously against the hull. We went inside and grabbed our survival equipment. Clearly, we were not sure how long the boat would float.

A French Navy falcon 50 from the Hyères base arrived on the area around 23:30, after refueling in Bordeaux. They coordinated the rescue before being relayed by a maritime patrol aircraft around 6am Monday.

Meanwhile, a rescue by a helicopter, a British Sea King rescue type, was attempted. They had asked us to leave the boat on the liferaft, the only way a diver could pick us up. That's what we did but Damien and I have never managed to get away from the boat. It was very dangerous since the life raft was being throw violently by the waves against the broken bow. Finally, we had to re-board Cheminées Poujoulat leaving on the raft almost all of our water, survival bag , telephone , rockets ... In short, at this point , we have lost a lot of our survival equipment.

Rescuers told us dive and to swim out of the boat for the diver to try to pick us up directly in the water. Unfortunately, that did not work either and was a very bad idea because I had a lot of trouble to get back to the boat again. I was quite shocked with all this situation.

After that we no longer had access to the sail locker where was stored our second life-raft and therefore five were dropped from the plane, but all have fallen too far away from us.

Then the cargo arrived and maneuvered to get alongside us. A rope was thrown at us but we missed it and the operation almost got us crushed against the cargo and in meantime Cheminées Poujoulat continued to sink . The crew threw us a new rope while we were along the cargo and this time, we, standing on the back of the sinking boat were able to catch it and block the remains of our boat against the cargo. The crew then descended a rope but we were banged violently against the hull and could not hold the rope and fall on the water.

With Damien things went better and he did not went far away but I have done 80 meters in the water, sometimes drinking a lot of it until I succeed in grabbing the net they had deployed. Damien swam next to the cargo and they throw him a ring buoy in which he could get in an only then he was able to catch the net and get out of trouble.

It was really super hot because there was a lot of sea and Cheminées Poujoulat , at that time , was almost entirely under water . There was only one small part of the transom sticking to the surface and the bow that was hanging from the shrouds . For ne this was a really hard thing to look.

The Filipino crew of the freighter MV Star Isfjord showed an incredible seamanship on the rescue. The Cargo is now bound to the Netherlands, where we should arrive Wednesday evening .

I want to thank to all the men who participated in this major operation . Thank you from my heart . "*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## outbound

Wow- makes you think.
I have only one raft.
Don't know if my crew and I have the level of fitness to do what they did.
Would my boat stay afloat that long after breaking up?

But on the other hand like to think its unlikely we would find ourselves in similar circumstances and believe its unlikely our boat would break up.


----------



## capt vimes

Pelicano - stamm had on his boat the towing generators mounted on vertical rails while a lot of others had them on a single point fixture, so they could swing them up or down as they need them... Due to collisions and probably other problems as well stamm lost both, which was a major part of his troubles...
The second big issue was his main winch in the center of the cockpit at the bulkhead... He tried to repair it two times i think, but if one knows how complex those things are. I cannot think of any way to fix one of them myself, let alone at sea...
And then one thing let to the other... Without main winch, no alternative power (which ate up his fuel supplies) he was forced to sail without autopilot for 5 days only to reach cape hoorn... Where he refilled and finally dropped out.

But you are right - i cannot await the next edition!
Btw: i do think that gabbart is a robot... 
Just kidding - le cleach showed less of emotions, at least on his live footages...
I followed the last edition all the way through and there were some remarkable feats performed...
JP dick bringing his boat home without keel not the least of them...
Do you know the video footage from thompson repairing his broken tie bar? And he had to do it twice...
I just wished that sanso and his acciona would have had a finish, because i simply favor the idea of sailing around the world without a drop of fossil energy...


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> ...
> But on the other hand like to think its unlikely we would find ourselves in similar circumstances and believe its unlikely our boat would break up.


Probably not since your boat will not take all the loads these boats have to sustain. These carbon boats are hugely stronger than your boat but your boat will never took the pounding and sustain the stress related with going well over 20K on huge seas, not for some thousands of miles but for hundreds of thousands on miles.

Even so and with all those miles and huge stress taken by these hulls this is a very rare occurrence and I don't recall any other case with an Open 60 that are probably the strongest and safest sailboats around.

There are many much older Open 60 still racing or still around (some more than 3 times older) that have been proving pretty much indestructible.

(Edited for correcting factual information)

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart*

Just to remember that the race will start in 10 minutes.

You can follow here:

Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013

and just as an appetizer, a movie regarding last year's edition:


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart*

Live Start here:

Yahoo!7 Sports Live - Yahoo!7 Sport

Edit: Great start. My take on the race: Two possible winners: Wild Oats, that is leading or Loyal, that is second. Very different boats and very interesting to see how those two concepts work on the Hobart. On most of the races I believe that Loyal (ex Rambler) would be faster since it is faster downwind but on this particular race upwind potential is what counts most so it should be a close call. Loyal has more power but Wild Oats has more finesse so it will depend much on the racing conditions and wind.

Wild Oats is a much narrower boat (about 2.00m) compared with Loyal that is a more recent design even if Wild Oats has been continuing modified in what regards keel, rudders and now DSS.. Interesting stuff and one of the most interesting races of the last years.


----------



## capt vimes

PCP said:


> Probably not since your boat will not take all the loads these boats have to sustain. These carbon boats are hugely stronger than your boat but your boat will never took the pounding and sustain the stress related with going well over 20K on huge seas, not for some thousands of miles but for hundreds of thousands on miles.
> 
> Even so and with all those miles and huge stress taken by these hulls this is a very rare occurrence and I don't recall any other case with an Open 60 that are probably the strongest and safest sailboats around.
> 
> I believe that this accident has to do with this one being a boat that was salvaged after a brutal collision with rocks, with the boat being washed ashore later (2008).
> 
> Many thought that the boat was irrecoverable and maybe they were right and that recovery should not have been attempted even if the boat had made after that several racing circumnavigations and many transats. It is well possible that the stress suffered by the hull on that shipwreck and the consequent weakening of the structure prove to be the ultimate cause of this accident. There are many much older Open 60 still racing or still around (some more than 3 times older) that have been proving pretty much indestructible.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo- those two boats are not identical... Stamm received a brand new one in 2011 which obviously broke apart now...
Skipper - Vendée Globe 2012-2013


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> Paulo- those two boats are not identical... Stamm received a brand new one in 2011 which obviously broke apart now...
> Skipper - Vendée Globe 2012-2013


Yes, you are right. I will correct the post (thanks). Pelicano seems right then. Something wrong with that boat design/built. Other older Open 60 are still around in one piece after having done much more racing/circumnavigations than this boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart*

It seems that the glory days of Wild Oats have come to an end and that this year the boat will be beaten even by smaller but more modern boats.

Wild Oats is a 2005 Rieche & Pugh design and 9 years are already a lot in what regards yacht and hull design even if the boat was continually updated in what regards keel, ruder and foils. I have said that it seemed to me that the 2008 JK Loyal (ex-Rambler) would be a faster boat on most conditions and it seems that he will find ahead even more favorable conditions then what he had find till know (strong downwind winds).

On the last editions Wild Oats had not the competition of state of the art designs, at least in what regards big yachts and that has changed this year.

There are racing two last generation VOR 70 (ex-Telefonica and ex-Groupama) and this two, even if 30ft smaller seems to be able to keep up with the bigger boat while Loyal is going away.

This is also a competition between two types of hull, one, the one from Wild Oats, much more narrow, less powerful, with less drag and the more common modern type, beamier with more drag but also more powerful.

This is the type of a race where the first type has more chances of beating the second one that is an overall more versatile design. I believe that for doing that it would need or light winds or upwind sailing with big seas and that on all other conditions the more moderated design would have a clear advantage.

It will be very interesting to follow the evolution of this race, not only in what regards the race itself but regarding the battle between this two kinds of different sailing concepts.

A look at the two very different boats:









Wild Oats XI...............................................Perpetual Loyal (ex-Rambler 100)

Maxi sloop 100'............................................Maxi sloop 30m
NA : Reichel-Pugh........................................NA : Juan Kouyoumdjian 
Built by McConaghy, Sydney 2005...................Built by Cookson Boat, Auckland 2008
Hull Lenght : 30,48 m....................................Hull Lenght : 30.00 m
LOA : 33,83 m.............................................LOA : 33,59 m
LWL : 29,70 m.............................................LWL : 29,99 m 
Beam : 5,40 m.............................................Beam : 7.00 m
Draft : 5,50 m.............................................Draft : 5,70 m 
Mast height : 44,10 m..................................Mast height : 46,50 m 
upwind sails: 610 m2....................................upwind sails: 630 m2
downwind sails : 1 262 m2............................downwind sails : 1 340 m2
Displacement : 32 t.....................................Displacement : 30.6 t
Ballast : 14 t..............................................Ballast : 8 t

Tracker - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Has it? I mean it was never a dominator but always close to the lead... And Stamm to me doesn't seem to be one of the best sailors in the world...
> 
> Meanwhile Riechers gave his 6yo Farr designed Open 60 to VPLP and they redesigned the whole front and gave it much more volume: Barcelona World Race: Jörg Riechers über den Umbau des neuen 60ers ?Mare? | SegelReporter
> 
> Even if you don't understand German you will understand the pictures...


And you can see why here:






This is a VPLP 2007 design and we can see that the boat on those conditions is pretty much burring the bow on the water while surfing big waves and that's no good and puts a huge load on the boat structure. I guess they know quite well what they are doing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

PCP said:


> And you can see why here:
> 
> This is a VPLP 2007 design and we can see that the boat on those conditions is pretty much burring the bow on the water while surfing big waves and that's no good and puts a huge load on the boat structure. I guess they know quite well what they are doing.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


This, again, vindicates David Raison's scow design, as we have also seen in videos of 747 sailing in similar conditions. Keeping the bow out of the backs of waves in surfing/planing conditions is really fast and reduces stress on the rig and on the pilots.

We have seen a move toward more fullness in the bows on the last generation Volvo 70s and on the VPLP boats that dominated the last Vendée - Macif and Banque Populaire. Of course, the changes have been more evolutionary than what Raison did, primarily because the VO70s and IMOCA 60s have to be optimized for more varied conditions - the Mini 6.50 design brief can allow for less variation in conditions.

Even so, I think this last MT demonstrated that the scow concept is not necessarily slow upwind - indeed, only in the lightest breeze does the additional drag start to play a factor and slows the design relative to more traditional designs, with narrower bows and finer entries.

So I believe we need to get used to this design trend - it may not have the aesthetic elegance of traditional hull shapes (though I find the scow to be quite handsome in its own way), but it is undeniably fast for offshore ocean racing. From what little we've seen of the Pogo 30, it appears to incorporate much more fullness in the bow section than the Pogo 2 or the Nacira design (which was so potent this year).


----------



## MrPelicano

capt vimes said:


> Pelicano - stamm had on his boat the towing generators mounted on vertical rails while a lot of others had them on a single point fixture, so they could swing them up or down as they need them... Due to collisions and probably other problems as well stamm lost both, which was a major part of his troubles...
> The second big issue was his main winch in the center of the cockpit at the bulkhead... He tried to repair it two times i think, but if one knows how complex those things are. I cannot think of any way to fix one of them myself, let alone at sea...
> And then one thing let to the other... Without main winch, no alternative power (which ate up his fuel supplies) he was forced to sail without autopilot for 5 days only to reach cape hoorn... Where he refilled and finally dropped out.
> 
> But you are right - i cannot await the next edition!
> Btw: i do think that gabbart is a robot...
> Just kidding - le cleach showed less of emotions, at least on his live footages...
> I followed the last edition all the way through and there were some remarkable feats performed...
> JP dick bringing his boat home without keel not the least of them...
> Do you know the video footage from thompson repairing his broken tie bar? And he had to do it twice...
> I just wished that sanso and his acciona would have had a finish, because i simply favor the idea of sailing around the world without a drop of fossil energy...


Capt V - Yes, those were the problems about which Stamm was quite vocal in his video broadcasts and in interviews with the media. But there were other concerns about which he wasn't quite as vocal, for whatever reasons, and IIRC they had to do with the boat design and build quality issues. When one is speaking of such things one must be very careful, for obvious legal and insurance reasons. Stamm may have had opinions about certain things, but he still wanted to be on the line for the start of the VG. I suspect he and his team kept things to themselves.

But that is mostly speculation at this point, and we will see if Stamm eventually has more to say. Even if, as he noted, the conditions they encountered were "manageable", they were still very rough and it is conceivable that dropping off the back of a particularly steep wave could have been enough to break the boat even without any design or build issues at all. Sometimes these things just happen. 

Personally, I hope Stamm's sponsors are willing to come up with money for a new boat - which I predict will not be a JuanK design but more likely come from VPLP. 

NOTE: I'm not trashing JuanK designs, many of which have been extremely successful and competitive. But even the best designers sometimes don't come up with the best designs - e.g., Farr in previous Volvos. And I believe Stamm's boat was JuanK's first IMOCA 60 effort.


----------



## PCP

*Farr and VOR*



MrPelicano said:


> .... e.g., Farr in previous Volvos. And I believe Stamm's boat was JuanK's first IMOCA 60 effort.


Yes, that's why he was rewarded into design the new VOR one class

Seriously I can wait to see the time the new VOR to compete with the older ones in other races. I would not be surprised if they were slower

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart*

Nobody has anything to say? Nobody following this one?

That's true that the tracker is a stone age thing that does not even have a weather prevision or a play back button but this seems to be the more interesting Sydney-Hobart in years with some very curious results being probably the more unexpected the outstanding results of the two VOR70 towards much bigger boats leaving behind several older designed Maxi 100ft racing yachts. Among the two VOR 70, the Juan Kouyoumdjian Giacamo (ex- Grupama) is making a great race fighting head to head with the favorite 30ft bigger Wild Oats.

Black Jack (ex-Telefonica), also a JK designed boat, is not faraway and ahead of other two Maxi 100ft favorites, the Ragamuffin 100 (designed by Greg Elliott in 1989 and extensively modified in 2004 when it was lengthened to 98ft and again in 2009, lengthened this time to 100ft) and the old Skandia, now re-baptized Wild Thing (designed by Don Jones in 2003).

Wild thing is head to head with the new designed Botin Beau Gest and even if the Botin is 20ft shorter many, including me, would expect a better performance, one not inferior of the two VOR 70. Maybe the boat is just too new and not yet completely sorted out.

All the other boats are well behind being the first of them the brand new Ichi Ban, a Carkeek 60 (Carkeek design).

For now the man that rules is Juan Kouyoumdjian whose designs are not only leading the race, but that has between the four first three of them


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Sydney-Hobart*



PCP said:


> Nobody has anything to say? Nobody following this one?
> 
> That's true that the tracker is a stone age thing that does not even have a weather prevision or a play back button but this seems to be the more interesting Sydney-Hobart in years with some very curious results being probably the more unexpected the outstanding results of the two VOR70 towards much bigger boats leaving behind several older designed Maxi 100ft racing yachts. Among the two VOR 70, the Juan Kouyoumdjian Giacamo (ex- Grupama) is making a great race fighting head to head with the favorite 30ft bigger Wild Oats.
> 
> Black Jack (ex-Telefonica), also a JK designed boat, is not faraway and ahead of other two Maxi 100ft favorites, the Ragamuffin 100 (designed by Greg Elliott in 1989 and extensively modified in 2004 when it was lengthened to 98ft and again in 2009, lengthened this time to 100ft) and the old Skandia, now re-baptized Wild Thing (designed by Don Jones in 2003).
> 
> Wild thing is head to head with the new designed Botin Beau Gest and even if the Botin is 20ft shorter many, including me, would expect a better performance, one not inferior of the two VOR 70. Maybe the boat is just too new and not yet completely sorted out.
> 
> All the other boats are well behind being the first of them the brand new Ichi Ban, a Carkeek 60 (Carkeek design).
> 
> For now the man that rules is Juan Kouyoumdjian whose designs are not only leading the race, but that has between the four first three of them


I was following the race at the start, and watched the initial videos on the McConaghy FB site. But, as you say, it is difficult to get very excited about this race due to the antique coverage. There really is no good reason that cameras could not be mounted on all the IRC 0 boats, at least. But since this is still a largely "amateur" event (despite all the top boats being professionally crewed), there's no pressure from sponsors for better media coverage.

In my earlier remarks about this race, I had my money on the VO 70's, after seeing how quick Black Jack was in the SOLAS Regatta, relative to Wild Oats and Loyal. And at the start, on the fetch to the first turning mark, you could see Giacomo blasting along on the starboard side of the course, easily keeping pace with the Maxis and Mini-Maxis. Beau Geste rounded second, behind WO, with Black Jack in fourth behind Loyal.

And I certainly have to agree with you, Paulo, that the decision to award the VO One Design contract to Farr, after JuanK boats have dominated that race (not to mention having proved execeedingly durable), was a questionable decision. Unless, of course, the goals was to slow the VO boats down and make sure they all finish every leg. But in that case, why not buy some Clipper 70s?


----------



## PCP

*The first Whitbread Round the World 1973/4*

Sure, it was a long time ago and the video is available on the NET but those videos had a very low quality and were a pain to watch. Not anymore. This one was remastered on HD.

This is the race that was largely dominated by Great Britain II and Chay Blyth that won three of the four legs in real time, losing overboard a crew member on the process.

Two other man were lost on other boats overboard. Is good to remember that when he talk about the danger of racing on modern VOR (that go at more than two times the speed of these old shoes) like if it was more dangerous now than then.

Eric Tabarly also entered this one but with bad luck chasing him: He broke the mast twice in two different legs, won another one and beat the world's sailing 24 hour absolute record.

The race now in HD:


----------



## Edward3

S2H
Loyal and Oats even entering Bass Strait
Running in light breeze favors the narrow Oats
BIG breeze coming entering Hobart


----------



## robelz

WOXI leads the pack now, 5nm ahead of PL. I was so curious on the performance of the Sydney GTS43 but there is not a single one racing...


----------



## MrPelicano

Edward3 said:


> S2H
> Loyal and Oats even entering Bass Strait
> Running in light breeze favors the narrow Oats
> BIG breeze coming entering Hobart


Well, despite our speculation, it's turning out to be a battle of the 100 footers after all, with WO, Loyal and Ragamuffin opening up a pretty substantial lead over the VO70s, Beau Geste, Wild Thing, Ichi Ban, et al.

Don't think the big breeze will arrive soon enough to allow Giacomo and Black Jack to catch up, but it could be enough to allow Loyal to squeeze by WO in the home stretch, unless it's on the nose and an upwind slog-fest. And once they're in the Derwent and it goes light, WO will have the advantage.

Veloce (Elliott 44CR) is having a great race so far and certainly made some improvements somewhere since last year, when they finished 36th overall. But I wouldn't count out Midnight Rambler (Ker 40) yet. Not only have they won the overall before, they may have the most experienced crew in the race. This is where the excitement is, IMHO, not so much in the line honours battle.

Hope nobody gets in trouble when the approaching low pressure system arrives.


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart*



Edward3 said:


> S2H
> Loyal and Oats even entering Bass Strait
> Running in light breeze favors the narrow Oats
> BIG breeze coming entering Hobart





robelz said:


> WOXI leads the pack now, 5nm ahead of PL. I was so curious on the performance of the Sydney GTS43 but there is not a single one racing...


Pelicano was saying this is mostly an amateur race. I have to agree that even if many on this race are professionals the more important part are amateurs and that is just a pity. I am refereeing to the ones that organize the race (and also many skippers) that make this one continue to be club racing instead of a major international event. How do they expect to promote the race if they take all the fun if they present a tracker that is way worse than the one they utilize on the ARC

Don't take me wrong, this is a great race but I am really pissed with an amateurish organization (that keep away multihull, as if they did not exist or were not sailboats) that prevents this one to turn in a big international race reuniting all major racing boats and not only the local ones

As example of that amateurish outlook you have only to look at the tracker that does not have the weather prevision, does not show the the speed of each boat and it is impossible to play back to understand the conditions and strategies that lead to the position the boats occupy now. It is no fun to follow a race this way.

For what I can tell and as Edward says, they have been sailing in unusually light winds and that is one of the few situations were Wild Oats has an advantage over Loyal and that has showed on the race results with the narrow boats coming forward, including Wild Oats that is leading.

Edwards says that stronger winds will appear and I take as good his words but the tracker makes impossible to know that and even on the news from the race they don't say much...it is all very vague as if they didn't have any certitude about the strength of the wind and the hour it will show up:

*"A frustrated Anthony Bell, skipper of Perpetual LOYAL summed it up dryly: "We're just bobbing around here. We have four knots across the deck. I've seen it windier in my two-year-old daughter's indoor swimming lessons."
.....
What Perpetual LOYAL needs, Bell says, is 12 to 14 knots of wind to come into her own, but he has little expectation of more wind until late tomorrow.

"It'll be pretty light until midday. Maybe we'll get something tomorrow, at the back end of the day."

The Bureau of Meteorology is a little more optimistic, predicting the leading seven should have favorable winds tomorrow morning. The Bureau expects strengthening north-easterlies will push them down the Tasmanian north-east coast, and a possible race finish tomorrow evening.

The Bureau is also forecasting a weather change late tomorrow evening in Bass Strait and off the Tasmanian south-east coast. It is forecasting west to south-westerly winds of 30 to 40 knots. So in contrast to the frontrunners today, on Saturday night and throughout Sunday the smaller boats will have a traditional Rolex Sydney Hobart slog across Bass Strait.

Bell dearly wishes it were the other way round.
....
He is hoping that the front will come sooner than forecast, before the frontrunners reach Tasman Island."
*

Tracker - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013

Robelz, yes, it is pretty astounding that the winner of the last race in compensated, the Sydney 43, is not defending its title. I don't have a clue why.

Among the smaller boats special notice and by this order on the classification, to a Rodgers 46 (Celestial), an Elliot 44cr (Veloce) a Ker 46 (Patrice) and then to the first 40fter, a racing Ker 40 (Midnight Rambler).

Some distance back another 40fter, a Caprice 40 (Chutzpah) then a Humphrerys 42 (Zanzibar), a DK 43 (Minerva) and then the First mass production boat, a First 45 Shinning sea) followed by two another oner First 45 (Senna and Ballance).

To give you an idea of the performance of these boats, the ones above and immediately below, let me say they are running, some ahead some on the middle of Clipper 70 fleet.

Then a lot of smaller boats racing among the big ones: A sydney 38, a King 40, a MBD 41, a Salona 44, a Bakewell-White 39, a First 40, a A40, another Sydney 38 and another First 40.

I wonder why among all those exotic, practically all one off, very fast Australian boats there is not a single Sydney 37GTS or Sydney 43GTS, the only ones that today are produced? Certainly it is not because they are not competitive since the Sydney 43 won the last race. They have money to spend on huge boats but not money to buy their own production fast boats boats that can win on compensated??? This one I really don't understand.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Sydney GTs37? Is one built yet?


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Sydney GTs37? Is one built yet?


That's the point: No But the only thing it is needed is an order

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Sydney-Hobart*



PCP said:


> Pelicano was saying this is mostly an amateur race. I have to agree that even if many on this race are professionals the more important part are amateurs and that is just a pity. I am refereeing to the ones that organize the race (and also many skippers) that make this one continue to be club racing instead of a major international event. How do they expect to promote the race if they take all the fun if they present a tracker that is way worse than the one they utilize on the ARC
> 
> Don't take me wrong, this is a great race but I am really pissed with an amateurish organization (that keep away multihull, as if they did not exist or were not sailboats) that prevents this one to turn in a big international race reuniting all major racing boats and not only the local ones
> 
> As example of that amateurish outlook you have only to look at the tracker that does not have the weather prevision, does not show the the speed of each boat and it is impossible to play back to understand the conditions and strategies that lead to the position the boats occupy now. It is no fun to follow a race this way.
> 
> For what I can tell and as Edward says, they have been sailing in unusually light winds and that is one of the few situations were Wild Oats has an advantage over Loyal and that has showed on the race results with the narrow boats coming forward, including Wild Oats that is leading.
> 
> Edwards says that stronger winds will appear and I take as good his words but the tracker makes impossible to know that and even on the news from the race they don't say much...it is all very vague as if they didn't have any certitude about the strength of the wind and the hour it will show up:
> 
> *"A frustrated Anthony Bell, skipper of Perpetual LOYAL summed it up dryly: "We're just bobbing around here. We have four knots across the deck. I've seen it windier in my two-year-old daughter's indoor swimming lessons."
> .....
> What Perpetual LOYAL needs, Bell says, is 12 to 14 knots of wind to come into her own, but he has little expectation of more wind until late tomorrow.
> 
> "It'll be pretty light until midday. Maybe we'll get something tomorrow, at the back end of the day."
> 
> The Bureau of Meteorology is a little more optimistic, predicting the leading seven should have favorable winds tomorrow morning. The Bureau expects strengthening north-easterlies will push them down the Tasmanian north-east coast, and a possible race finish tomorrow evening.
> 
> The Bureau is also forecasting a weather change late tomorrow evening in Bass Strait and off the Tasmanian south-east coast. It is forecasting west to south-westerly winds of 30 to 40 knots. So in contrast to the frontrunners today, on Saturday night and throughout Sunday the smaller boats will have a traditional Rolex Sydney Hobart slog across Bass Strait.
> 
> Bell dearly wishes it were the other way round.
> ....
> He is hoping that the front will come sooner than forecast, before the frontrunners reach Tasman Island."
> *
> 
> Tracker - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013
> 
> Robelz, yes, it is pretty astounding that the winner of the last race in compensated, the Sydney 43, is not defending its title. I don't have a clue why.
> 
> Among the smaller boats special notice and by this order on the classification, to a Rodgers 46 (Celestial), an Elliot 44cr (Veloce) a Ker 46 (Patrice) and then to the first 40fter, a racing Ker 40 (Midnight Rambler).
> 
> Some distance back another 40fter, a Caprice 40 (Chutzpah) then a Humphrerys 42 (Zanzibar), a DK 43 (Minerva) and then the First mass production boat, a First 45 Shinning sea) followed by two another oner First 45 (Senna and Ballance).
> 
> To give you an idea of the performance of these boats, the ones above and immediately below, let me say they are running, some ahead some on the middle of Clipper 70 fleet.
> 
> Then a lot of smaller boats racing among the big ones: A sydney 38, a King 40, a MBD 41, a Salona 44, a Bakewell-White 39, a First 40, a A40, another Sydney 38 and another First 40.
> 
> I wonder why among all those exotic, practically all one off, very fast Australian boats there is not a single Sydney 37GTS or Sydney 43GTS, the only ones that today are produced? Certainly it is not because they are not competitive since the Sydney 43 won the last race. They have money to spend on huge boats but not money to buy their own production fast boats boats that can win on compensated??? This one I really don't understand.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


There was a time, in the history of this race, when boats did come from all over the world to compete. This was in the days when more than 200 boats woud enter. But I think after the 1998 race things have been going downhill. The entry requirements were made stricter, for safety reasons, and restrictions placed on crew (only those with a certain amount of offshore experience and specific training were allowed).

Of course, these were probably all good things to do, but add to that a generally poor global economy, the distance it takes to get yachts to Australia from Europe and North America (even if it is winter in the northern hemisphere), limited relevant sponsorship, minimal media attention (even in Australia!), and the generally amateurish race organization, and it's not surprising that this race isn't the big deal it should be - e.g., the Fastnet of the southern hemisphere.

Let me quickly add that the Sydney Hobart isn't alone in this respect. Another classic race that ought to be much bigger and more prestigious is the bi-annual TransPac Race, from Los Angeles, California to Honolulu, Hawaii. This race (which I did in 1997) has a long tradition of poor management, lack of interest in building media attention, and even greater lack of interest in buidling participation. It says a lot about this race that it's most important contribution to the sport has been the development of the TP52 class, arguably the premier professional racing class in the world today. And yet, it's a class that never paid much attention to the race after which it was named, hence the official class name "change" from Transpac 52 to TP52, and certainly never made any impact on the race (I'm a huge TP52 fan, by the way, particularly with the IRC modifications).

Sometimes I suppose that tradition plays a big part in keeping races like these from becoming more than they are. The people who have the biggest stake don't want to lose control or get displaced by professional race management and marketing people.

All the same, if I had the opportunity to do the Sydney-Hobart Race I would do so without hesitation. Same for the Fastnet or the Mini Transat. However, I will take a pass on the Vendée and the VOR. That's way out of my league.


----------



## PCP

*Carlo borlenghi*

Since we have not decent images of the Sydney-Hobart lets look at some really beautiful ones. There are many ways of loving sailing, some sail, some design boats, some paint and some take photos and among these Carlo Borlenghi is one of the best and beauty comes out of his work.

Am interview in Italian. Be patient, just put the movie in the best definition, wait for the photos to show up and stop the image: If you like boats and sailing, you will love Carlo's work:


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Carlo borlenghi*



PCP said:


> Since we have not decent images of the Sydney-Hobart lets look at some really beautiful ones. There are many ways of loving sailing, some sail, some design boats, some paint and some take photos and among these Carlo Borlenghi is one of the best and beauty comes out of his work.
> 
> Am interview in Italian. Be patient, just put the movie in the best definition, wait for the photos to show up and stop the image: If you like boats and sailing, you will love Carlo's work:


Wow.

Tell me he doesn't live on Lake Garda. 

Lovely house, incredible art work on the walls, beautiful wife, and amazing photographs.

Did I miss anything? 

Liked how they put the interviewer to work in the kitchen, stirring the pot. Thanks very much for sharing, Paulo.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: The first Whitbread Round the World 1973/4*



PCP said:


> Sure, it was a long time ago and the video is available on the NET but those videos had a very low quality and were a pain to watch. Not anymore. This one was remastered on HD.
> 
> This is the race that was largely dominated by Great Britain II and Chay Blyth that won three of the four legs in real time, losing overboard a crew member on the process.
> 
> Two other man were lost on other boats overboard. Is good to remember that when he talk about the danger of racing on modern VOR (that go at more than two times the speed of these old shoes) like if it was more dangerous now than then.
> 
> Eric Tabarly also entered this one but with bad luck chasing him: He broke the mast twice in two different legs, won another one and beat the world's sailing 24 hour absolute record.
> 
> The race now in HD:


Those were certainly different times from today, even though not really so long ago. Perhaps one of the last times you had beer and cigarettes as staple provisions. 

Not to take away from how difficult it is to race the current generation of high performance VOR boats around the world, but I think everyone would agree that the men and women who competed in those early Whitbread races were made of tough stuff. And for the last couple of VORs the fleet hasn't spent much time in the Southern Ocean, while the mandatory ice gates have reduced the risk of growlers. Even in those days, however, it was crazy to go down to 60S and demonstrates, to me, a shocking lack of good judgement in putting the crews at such risk (not to mention that nobody wore tethers or PFDs in those days).

Anyway, thanks very much for posting this wonderful bit of history for us. Watching it made me want to go ocean racing right away.


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart*

Well, the wind come to the race, but too late for Loyal. The two leading boats are almost doing 20K. Right now Wild Oats have more wind but soon Loyal will be the fastest boat, but not in time to recover the 38nm that separates him from the leader.

For the victory in Handicap things are not decided yet: The leading boat is a slow one, an old Farr 43 (wild Rose) that is only in 60th overall. I hope that Brannew, a First 40 CR that is making a well of race can beat it in compensated since in real time it is 21 places ahead I hate one slow boats won in handicap.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Sydney-Hobart*



PCP said:


> Well, the wind come to the race, but too late for Loyal. The two leading boats are almost doing 20K. Right now Wild Oats have more wind but soon Loyal will be the fastest boat, but not in time to recover the 38nm that separates him from the leader.
> 
> For the victory in Handicap things are not decided yet: The leading boat is a slow one, an old Farr 43 (wild Rose) that is only in 60th overall. I hope that Brannew, a First 40 CR that is making a well of race can beat it in compensated since in real time it is 21 places ahead I hate one slow boats won in handicap.


Nice little battle going on between the two VOR70s, with Black Jack leading Giacomo by .5 mile, and Beau Geste a few miles back of them.

Meanwhile, looks like the wheels fell off for Midnight Rambler, who were challenging with Veloce for the IRC lead not too long ago but have now disappeared down the standings. Wonder if they had some sail or gear failure.

Right now, the RP40 Chutzpah is leading Veloce by under an hour on corrected time, so this one looks like it will be a nail biter for sure. The skipper of Chutzpah has 31 Sydney Hobart races under his belt, and (so I learned this morning) sold his Hick 35 to the skipper who won the 1998 race.


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart*

And as expected Wild Oats won by the 7th time the Sydney-Hobart, a record that would be very hard to mach in the future. In my opinion, not only luck with the light winds but a masterful routing regarding wind and conditions, far better than the one on Loyal. A well deserved victory.



As usual the coverage is miserable and there are now movies, at least yet, to show the arrival, that seems it was at speed.

Regarding the compensated winner the leader is not anymore a slow boat but Chutzpah, a 2007 40ft cruiser-racer designed by Reichel/Pugh. They are 23th overall, a fantastic race for them overtaking with a cruiser-racer the racing ker 40 and being the first 40ft boat.

Regarding the smaller boats that were doing well and that I mentioned on a previous post, the Rodgers 46 is 20th, the Elliot 44Cr 19th, the Ker 46 13th (great race and overtaking a lot of boats on the stronger conditions) the ker 40 31th, the Humphreis 42 26th, the DK 43 33th, the 4 First 45 are now in 39th, 42th, 44th and 60th, being all overtaken by the smaller First 40 Brannew (37th) that is making a great race but as all "heavy" boats is losing distance on these conditions that favors lighter downwind rockets.

On the downwind conditions with stronger winds many smaller light boats overtook the bigger heavier boats (the First 45 for example).

For instance, the Bakewell-White 39 is 40th, the MDB41 is 46th another First 40 is 47th a A40 is 48th, three sydney 38 are 54th, 58th and 65th, the Salona 44 is 60th, another First 40 is 62th.

If you think these are bad results for performance cruisers of this size, think again, most are ahead or in the middle of the brand new clipper 70 racing boats, that I have to say, for a brand new 70ft racing boat, are pretty slow

Edtt: Sorry Pelicano, some repetition here but I did not see your post before posting this one.


----------



## PCP

*Rm 890*

As I expected the RM 890 was a success among cruisers showing that this is the type of boat that many want and that just some have the money to buy

On the Nautic de Paris they receive orders for 14 new boats, the best result of any RM on a single boat show.







If you want to try this one, two charting companies will have it for the summer (all on the France Atlantic Coast) and it seems that they have already almost all slots booked for the Summer. If you are interested better hurry. These are the two companies: Alternative Sailing (Trinité sur Mer) and at Bretagne Yachting (Lorient).

It seems that, contrary to most other brands, there is no crisis for RM. It is not only this one that is selling well: the new RM 1060 has sold in 3 years 50 boats and the even more recent RM 1260 (last year elected as European family cruiser) has sold 30 boats.

About 100 boats in 3 years for what used to be a very small shipyard shows that the Marc Lombard design and vision in what regards a voyage boat has a large acceptance among cruisers, as the material the boats are built (marine plywood and epoxy).

For the ones that don't have the money or want to build their own boat I remember that this concept was created by Marc Lombard even before RM started to produce his designs and that he was for sell inexpensive plans of boatsnot very different from these ones, boats that are suited for amateur boat building and that are not difficult to execute. Many have been built, some even on other continents, namely in America (Canada).

Marc Totain

Randonneur 980

Randonneur 1200

Run 45


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Sydney-Hobart*



PCP said:


> Regarding the compensated winner the leader is not anymore a slow boat but Chutzpah, a 2007 40ft cruiser-racer designed by Reichel/Pugh. They are 23th overall, a fantastic race for them overtaking with a cruiser-racer the racing ker 40 and being the first 40ft boat.


Paulo - I think Chutzpah has more in common with the Ker 40 than with typical cruiser-racers. In other words, it's very similar to the RP 45 though perhaps more "optimized" for IRC, which means there's some kind of "accommodations" below deck. But the hull design is full-on racer.




























And compare to the RP IRC 45s like Sjambok, Criminal Mischief and Aquila (below):




























In other words, the RP 40 and Ker 40 are definitely race boats first, and "cruisers" a far second. My kind of boats.


----------



## PCP

*Cruising or racing*

I cannot see well the differences on the hulls on those pictures but for what I can tell Chutzpah has a more forgiving hull for going downwind fast and that is essential on an offshore race with heavy seas: it increases your confidence in the boat and allows you to go faster. Aquila has a hull much more Ker style, one designed to take heel taking all advantage of a big B/D ratio and huge draft, but more tricky to sail downwind, not necessarily slower, even faster in perfect conditions.

You are right regarding Chutzpah since the boat has really a tiny cabin but it is not the hull that defines the difference between a very fast cruiser-racer like the Sydney 43GTS and a top offshore racer but the maximization of factors.

Factors like less weight that are obtained with an almost non existent interior and a bigger draft, space in the cockpit for racing maneuvers with the diminution of the cabin that also has importance in what regards minimum windage and in what regards maneuvers over the cabin.

But one thing is a very fast cruiser racer thought to be sailed with a crew and a good performance cruiser that can be raced but it is also easy to be sailed fast solo. That's here that the different hull designs that are used in racing can make a difference. Some, like the ones used by Ker or Mills, mostly for crewed racing don't give forgiving sailboats or boats easily exploited solo.

If you can remember it was the only objection that I had made to the new C&C Redline 41: Great as a cruiser-racer but that I doubt it had the characteristics to be very good performance cruiser, meaning that it would not be a boat easy to sail solo or with a reduced crew.

Is in this regard that the French designers normally do better, not meaning that the boats are faster but that are boats more polyvalent, being able to be fast with a crew, fast solo racing or easy enough to cruise with the family, even going fast. That is also to do with the market for whom they work, one where solo or short crew racing has not only a big importance but also a growing one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Malango 880*

We have already talked about this boat, that is one of the nominated for this year's European boat of the year contest. It was tested recently by Yacht.de and they have posted some nice photos, so let's have a new and better look since this is all but an ordinary boat: A unique one I would say







Till now, just a nice boat with a swing keel but what makes the Malango series unique is this:





Yes this is a 29ft cruiser that carries its own dingy, not a big one but good enough for two. You know, if you like to sail fast and have a nice looking boat the worst thing you can do is to tow a dingy or have it over the deck, specially on a small boat so what choices do we have?:

To passing half the time filling up the dingy...or having a Malango and what is really extraordinary is that the boat still has two cabins, a head, a good storage space and a galley. Ok the galley does not have a freezer and that seems to have the only downside for a 29ft boat. I have saw a portable freezer under the table on some photos but that seems not o be a good idea. Maybe with some skill we could find one even if the only place seems to be on the head or adjacent to it.









The cockpit is big and offers a good support to everybody with a practical rigging even if a box could be provided to enclose the liferaft. It does not seem to me a good idea to use the liferaft as a support when the boat is heeled but it is just in the right position for it:







and the best thing is that this is a fast and enjoyable boat to sail, one of a kind
Did I said that the boat was unsinkable and certifiable as class A boat?

some great photos:

http://www.idbmarine.com/fr/galerie_idbmarine.php


----------



## PCP

*Sydney- Hobart and gale winds*

The wind that was absent two days ago arrived in full force now with some nasty results:

* "Bill Wild's Queensland Reichel/Pugh 55 Wedgetail was dismasted at about 0400 south of Tasman Island.... There have been strong gusts at Tasman through the night, eight knots gusting to more than 30 and building now to a steady 23 knots but gusting to 45.

James Cameron's 35 foot NSW yacht Luna Sea from Drummoyne lost its rudder at about the same time 53 nautical miles east of Flinders.

The leading British Clipper 70 Henri Lloyd (Eric Holden) lost its rudder bearing east of Cape Barren Island at 2211 last night and has retired, heading for Hobart:..."This is due to a damaged rudder bearing which is allowing excessive movement of the rudder shaft. The skipper is making a seaman-like decision to retire and motor sail into the comparatively calmer waters off Flinders Island before altering course for Hobart"....

The Victorian yacht Rush is sailing to Coles Bay where an ambulance will be waiting for injured crew member Ben Renshaw, who broke a leg while the boat was sailing south of Freycinet Peninsula on the Tasmanian east coast....Rush has not retired from the race at this stage...

Meanwhile, Tony Kirby's brand new Ker 46 Patrice and James Clayton's Sigma 41 Black Adder are the latest yachts to retire from the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race as the fleet is buffeted by gale force conditions that have battered the fleet along the Tasmanian coast.

Patrice suffered minor hull damage east of Tasman Island around 7.40am this morning and is motoring back to Orford, which is a considerable distance north of Tasman....

... Black Adder, which was last on line and has headed to Eden with no reason given, become the eighth and ninth retirements from the original fleet of 94.
.....
Conditions at sea are still very difficult because of frequent gusts that are double the strength of an already fresh prevailing breeze. It is expected to abate during the day. "*

News - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

I haven't heard of a Bordeaux 60, but just came across this one showing construction of one.






and another one showing more of it.


----------



## eehgil

Have you seen the "Adventure 40" project on morganscloud.com?

I do not have enough posts to post links or images, but they have now found a designer for it, and the first sketch is out. You can see it on morganscloud.

Do you have anu toughts about this project?


----------



## PCP

*CNB yachts*



Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I haven't heard of a Bordeaux 60, but just came across this one showing construction of one.
> 
> ...


Yes I believe you are right. CNB is the top brand from the Benetau group and perhaps I don't find in them the flair of the Italian big yachts and it seems that the sailors that want practicality as main concern and have the money to buy them prefer Oysters. Fact is that in the luxury segment the choice is huge and CNB is just in the middle waters regarding design criteria.

But I do agree they are beautiful boats and that should be here, so thanks for posting.

Some two more: One of the more popular, the CNB 76 and one of the custom line, the CNB 100 that is in fact an one off. They have a line of production yachts, with a 60 and the 76 but also build custom boats and that is an important part of their work.

Both the production boats are designed by Philippe Briand (that designs also for instance the First 45 and 50) and show the elegance he puts in his designs. The Custom 100ft is a Luca Brenta design and I guess you can understand what I mean by flair

The 76:






The custom 100:






THE CNB SHIPYARD - CNB Yachts

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Adventure 40*



eehgil said:


> Have you seen the "Adventure 40" project on morganscloud.com?
> 
> I do not have enough posts to post links or images, but they have now found a designer for it, and the first sketch is out. You can see it on morganscloud.
> 
> Do you have any thoughts about this project?


A pretty banal boat, I don't understand why they need to find a designer for it. There are many similar inexpensive designs around that could be adapted for a much smaller cost.

More then 10 years ago when I knew a lot less about design I modified an existent design to suit what I then considered my needs, that were much similar in what regards the sailing program with the ones that boat is pointed too.

The designer of the boat I had modified accepted by a small amount of money to modify his old existent design (an inexpensive one) to suit my (more modern) criteria. I give up since having learned more about boat design, I understood I would be better served by a more modern design that served the same purposes.





I think they would be better served with a modern design from a specialist in aluminium like DicK Zall, for instance the "NORTHERN COMFORT" one of his best designs and one that fits that program. The design is so popular that goes already on its V version.

If they want a fixed keel (instead of a lifting one) that would not be a problem. Previous versions had a fixed keel and if they want it smaller that should not also be a problem because he has similar smaller designs.

The point is that for making a boat so "banal" it is not needed to pass years studding what should be the ideal voyage boat. There are many answers on the market in what regards available designs, some very similar and production boats that will be less expensive than have a custom boat built or an one off.

Take a look at the "NORTHERN COMFORT V" by Dick Zall (the designer of the older Contest):





Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart*

The conditions continue to be very bad for the boats still sailing and many of these are small boats that are among the slower:

*""Boat breaking". That's how Andrew Wenham, skipper of the VO70 Southern Excellence II described the seas off the Tasmanian coast when he arrived at Constitution Dock this afternoon.

"The sea is coming from everywhere; the north-west swell is joining up with the new south-west swell, so it's very shallow, very choppy,'' he said.

"Four and five meter seas, big waves, a lot of them breaking. I would be seriously worried about the smaller boats that are still at sea tonight and tomorrow."

Wenham said that during the last hours of the race, Southern Excellence II was seeing consistent 30 knot winds, which is pretty much what they expected, but it was the gusts that made it tricky.

"We got up to 45 knots, possibly up to 50 if you watched it that closely,'' he said.
...

The good news for the boats still at sea is that Matthew Thomas from the Bureau of Meteorology does expect things to get a little bit better, but still from the south west.

"Over the next six to 12 hours there'll be 15 to 25 knots,'' he said early this afternoon.

"As the boats get closer down to Maria Island winds will increase again. Currently there are gale conditions down there, wind speeds of around 30 to 35 knots for the southeast and lower east of Tasmania.

"There's winds of 25 to 30 knots in Storm Bay, but they're easing back and conditions will improve later today."*

Seas, not the wind, the big problem for the boats still at sea - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013
...

It seems that a Victoire, a Cookson 50 raced by Darryl Hodgkinson will won the race in compensated time.


----------



## PCP

*Ok, let's have some REALLY fast sailing here:*


----------



## PCP

*Cookson 50*

This is a production boat and it had to be a NZ boat you are going to understand why, but for now it is enough to know that she has just won the Sydney Hobart in compensated.

It is made in two versions: A racer and a cruiser racer being the major difference a existence of a higher cabin since being this a semi custom boat the interior comfort and quality is left much to the owner desires. Both have cantig keels.

Initially, back in 2004 the boat was a racer with a flat cabin but today almost all have the cruiser-racer configuration, at least in what regards the cabin.

The hull is remarkably modern for a 2004 design (the cabin design is more recent). A very nice boat:









Anyway even the cruiser-racer is (on all cases I know) used much more as a racer than a cruiser but I don't see why the boat cannot be used as a performance cruiser.

They say about the boat design and program:

*Affordable, fun to sail and fast, led to a new generation of yacht, the Cookson 50. The boat of the future complete with ultra modern interior. Working closely with the Farr Design Office, Cookson Boats developed and launched the prototype in November 2004.

Conceptuals for the Cookson 50 developed from reducing Transpac 52 hull shape to 50 feet, maximizing beam, and increasing freeboard for full headroom to produce an interior suitable for family cruising.

Fully equipped with a canting keel and trim tab/canard to maintain stability and minimize crew numbers makes the Cookson 50 a winner all round for the serious club racer with a view to successfully competing in any grand prix event he chooses.

To date, the Cookson 50 has shown remarkable performances reaching and running. She has proven capable of holding her own on the wind against some serious competition. She is a true multipurpose yacht, big and powerful unencumbered by any rule but fits within the rules of most major grand prix events. *

Cookson besides producing this "affordable" production canting keel cruiser racer is one of the best custom builders of high tech racing boats having built for instance: Loyal (ex -Rambler), the VOR 70 Camper and several Open 60's boats. The boats are made of carbon, very though and very light and the Cookson 50 is no exception.

Look at the Cookson 50 dimensions:

LOA -50ft,,,, LWL - 15.24 m,,,, LWL - 13.85 m,,,, Beam - 4.30m,,,,Draft - 3.0m,,,,Displacement - 7000 kgs

and look how she sails:






Yes, a NZ boat It has the spirit and the speed.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Cookson 50*



PCP said:


> This is a production boat and it had to be a NZ boat you are going to understand why, but for now it is enough to know that she has just won the Sydney Hobart in compensated.
> 
> It is made in two versions: A racer and a cruiser racer being the major difference a existence of a higher cabin since being this a semi custom boat the interior comfort and quality is left much to the owner desires. Both have cantig keels.
> 
> Initially, back in 2004 the boat was a racer with a flat cabin but today almost all have the cruiser-racer configuration, at least in what regards the cabin.
> 
> The hull is remarkably modern for a 2004 design (the cabin design is more recent). A very nice boat:
> 
> Anyway even the cruiser-racer is (on all cases I know) used much more as a racer than a cruiser but I don't see why the boat cannot be used as a performance cruiser.
> 
> [snip, snip, snip]
> 
> and look how she sails:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a NZ boat It has the spirit and the speed.


Let me tell you that those boys are sailing that boat like a Melges 24 - everyone at the back of the cockpit (except pit person, who probably has the vang control in his hand) and going like they were on the reaching leg of an Olympic triangle course, not out in 30+ knots and 10 ft seas, doing some serious ocean racing. 

That's what I like to see. Serious crews doing serious racing when others might be triple reefed with a #4 headsail up. And I'd wager that as soon as the angle was right they put up the A5.

The only thing I might add is the boat looks like it could use some water ballast in the stern or a fuller bow section (telephone call for Mr. Raison, s'il veut plait). 

Loved this video. Made my day.


----------



## Edward3

sweet ride
nice change to the helo music compared to the drama on the S2H start on channel 7


----------



## PCP

*Vendee Globe: Sailor's evolution*

I had another look at an interesting movie about the 2000/2001 edition and what had impressed me more than the evolution of the boats is the evolution of the sailors: Now there seems to be several of them with the same quality that at that time only Michel Desjoyeux seemed to have, I mean the discipline the professionalism the seriousness. At that time, for many the Vendee was more an Adventure than a race.

Not for Desjoyeux then, not for several racers on the last edition from whom the Vendee was just a big race, the biggest of them all.

Have a look at the two movies and see what I mean:


----------



## bjung

*Hinckley B50*

Not sure this has been posted yet.
A Modern Heir Is Born: The Hinckley Bermuda 50 | Rhode Island
Looks very european (in a positive way), and fast.
Congrats to Hinckley!


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Vendee Globe: Sailor's evolution*



PCP said:


> I had another look at an interesting movie about the 2000/2001 edition and what had impressed me more than the evolution of the boats is the evolution of the sailors: Now there seems to be several of them with the same quality that at that time only Michel Desjoyeux seemed to have, I mean the discipline the professionalism the seriousness. At that time, for many the Vendee was more an Adventure than a race.
> 
> Not for Desjoyeux then, not for several racers on the last edition from whom the Vendee was just a big race, the biggest of them all.
> 
> Have a look at the two movies and see what I mean


That is a bit unfair a comment to all the other competitors...
If you remember - michel had to fight for the win almost until the finish line because he was pushed by ellen mc arthur who lost out by a day eventually only because she hit a container in the north atlantic and had to do repairs...
And at the cape hoorn she was more than 600 nm behind, she even diverted to come to the aid for palier but still caught up with michel..
Palier was in the lead til he got dismasted and finished non the less with a jury rig... 
Vendée Globe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to me only, the overall winner of this edition was ellen mc arthur... 

Edit:
I love the boats from that era, because they could get converted easier to a cruiser than the radical designs from today... They had more freeboard, an enclosed cockpit, the hulls were not that focused on reaches having narrower sterns so they should have better windward abilities... If i had the money and could get my hand on one, i definitely would not hesitate and convert it to cruise in fashion and speed...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Hinckley Bermuda 50*



bjung said:


> A Modern Heir Is Born: The Hinckley Bermuda 50 | Rhode Island
> Looks very european (in a positive way), and fast.
> Congrats to Hinckley!


Humm, I agree with all except with that thing about "looking very European". I agree with them when they say: *A Modern Heir Is Born*.

The Key word here is* modern*. The best Na from all the world design very similar boats when they design modern sailboats being them Americans, Europeans or from Oceania.

*"The Hinckley Bermuda 50 is an advanced performance sloop that captures the best of design and technology. For sailors who wish to have a yacht they will be proud to cruise and race over many years, with the head-turning beauty and elegance that is unmistakably Hinckley, the Bermuda 50 is the modern day evolution of the Bermuda 40. "*

http://www.hinckleyyachts.com/Sailboats/B50/b50_gallery.php

http://ri.usharbors.com/image-gallery/modern-heir-born-hinckley-bermuda-50#sthash.hVlan0hd.dpuf

I like it, not so much the interior style, but the NA work (by Bill Tripp) is just great. A very nice boat with the particularity to have a big dinghy garage and that's just great for a 50fter.

I hope they succeed but I am not sure the American market, for whom they work most, are prepared for truly modern performance cruising boats. In Europe the competition is huge on that sector and for succeeding there I would say that they have to hire a top interior designer to give to the boat interior the same design quality it shows on the outside.







And some very interesting movies, one with the NA, Bill Tripp, talking aboutr the boat, other with the owner saying what he wanted as a performance cruising boat.











Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vendee Globe: Sailor's evolution*



capt vimes said:


> That is a bit unfair a comment to all the other competitors...
> If you remember - michel had to fight for the win almost until the finish line because he was pushed by ellen mc arthur who lost out by a day eventually only because she hit a container and had to do repairs...
> And at the cape hoorn she was more than 600 nm behind, she even diverted to come to the aid for palier but still caught up with michel..
> Palier was in the lead til he got dismasted and finished non the less with a jury rig...
> Vendée Globe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Not to me only, the overall winner of this edition was ellen mc arthur...


Maybe you are right but I am talking about the way sailors behave. Ellem Mac Arthur is a strange case, a great sailor and a natural talent, no doubt, but that abandoned racing sailing where she was on her prime. Unheard in what regards professional sailors but an attitude we saw among adventurer sailors, like Lamazou, the first winner of the Vendee Globe, also a great sailor.

I am talking about the attitude: we saw all of them on that old movie mumbling around, some crying (including Ellen), all except Desjoieaux that seems completely focused on winning.

If you look at this year's movies you see that kind of attitude regarding some sailors but the top ones have a similar stance to the one that Desjoieaux had already 15 years ago, a professional racing one focused on max performance and victory.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*A great new year to all.*

Last post of this year hopping and wishing to all a better 2014.

To finish the year some of the best sailing movies from 2013:











Onne Van Der Wal from Phil Suzemka on Vimeo.






FASNET 2013 by Rolex from Viento a Favor on Vimeo.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: A great new year to all.*



PCP said:


> Last post of this year hopping and wishing to all a better 2014.


Paulo - Thanks very much to you and all the other participants in this forum for enriching and informing my life in 2013. I've learned an incredible amount of useful information, kept up to date on the latest yachts, across the full range of designs, and shared the excitement of all the year's major races. This forum thread is a work of love for you that I hope has been rewarded by it's phenomenal success.

Very much looking forward to participating in the coming year and sharing the excitement of even more interesting boats, interesting races and interesting friends.

Happy New Year to you and your family.

MrPelicano


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Vendee Globe: Sailor's evolution*



PCP said:


> ...
> I am talking about the attitude: we saw all of them on that old movie mumbling around, some crying (including Ellen), all except Desjoieaux that seems completely focused on winning...


that's a little bit unfair... mc arthur cried when she opened her christmas presents...
and not everybody is an emotionless robot like desjoieaux or gabbart, which is michels scholar... 

regarding the hinckley 50:









are these tiles on the floor?
looks wired and not to my liking but a beautiful and sleek boat non the less...

all the best for 2014 also from my side and thank you for this thread paulo!


----------



## Faster

Thanks Paulo.. incredible effort keeping this thread alive and fascinating, for participants and lurkers alike.

Happy New Year (though we've got another 15 1/2 hours to go!)


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> ...
> 
> Happy New Year (though we've got another 15 1/2 hours to go!)


Man, you are slow!!! Andrews have already arrived at the new year 4 hours ago I will take more 5 hours but you call yourself Faster and take almost more a day than Andrews???

A beautiful picture that will make us all dream with sailing on summer days in this last day of the year:



The best to you and your family,

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Something beautiful to start well the year*

about sailing, of course. An offer from Voile and voiliers; the most beautiful photos of the year. To see them full size just click on the blue title over the photo (and not on the photo)

Photos à la hune - Best-of 2013 - Palmarès : vos 30 photos préférées ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles


----------



## PCP

*Finally: a great movie about this year's Sydney Hobart*

regattanews.com - Video Gallery


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Finally: a great movie about this year's Sydney Hobart*



PCP said:


> regattanews.com - Video Gallery


The first few minutes are the best and provide excellent examples of outstanding heavy weather boat handling. In most of those clips the drivers are generally doing a great job of guiding their boats through the conflicted seas, without pounding into the waves. From experience that is really exhausting work, which means you've got to have several people aboard capable of driving in those conditions, if you want to keep the boat in one piece and the crew from getting tossed about.

Still, you wonder how much footage was left on the cutting room floor for this 6 minute piece, most of which is talking head comments and start/finish coverage. Really want to see a couple hours of action footage from offshore, which presumably was do-able via on-board boat cameras and aerial cameras. Compare this with the 2012 Middle Sea Race footage that Paulo posted earlier, which is outstanding (not to mention that lengthy video of the Cookson 50 blasting along in what looked like Force 7-8 conditions - that one was 10+ minutes long and riveting). It's not like Rolex doesn't have the money for better coverage. 

Thanks for sharing this, Paulo!


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Vendee Globe: Sailor's evolution*



PCP said:


> Maybe you are right but I am talking about the way sailors behave. Ellem Mac Arthur is a strange case, a great sailor and a natural talent, no doubt, but that abandoned racing sailing where she was on her prime. Unheard in what regards professional sailors but an attitude we saw among adventurer sailors, like Lamazou, the first winner of the Vendee Globe, also a great sailor.
> 
> I am talking about the attitude: we saw all of them on that old movie mumbling around, some crying (including Ellen), all except Desjoieaux that seems completely focused on winning.
> 
> If you look at this year's movies you see that kind of attitude regarding some sailors but the top ones have a similar stance to the one that Desjoieaux had already 15 years ago, a professional racing one focused on max performance and victory.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo - You must have missed the part where Desjoyeaux explains how he is unable to start his generator due to insufficient battery strength, then breaks into tears. "Poutain!" is the last thing he says. Then the next scene we see the ingenious system which he jury-rigged to jump start the generator using the force of the boom during a gybe (tripped remotely via webbing attached to a rope clutch holding the mainsheet).

I think one difference between competitors in the VG which may account for the difference in styles you're referring to is that a number of the top sailors are also engineers, naval architects or grew up in the sailing world (as did Desjoyeaux himself, with close friends Jean le Cam and Roland Jourdain). In other words, they are not generally "outsiders" who come to the VG as an adventure - e.g., Pete Goss.

Even Ellen McArthur came to the VG via the Mini Transat and paid her dues for several years, living in France, learning fluent French, etc. And though her longterm interests have not been in ocean racing, her level of organization and professionalism are probably second to nobody. Have to agree with an earlier poster who pointed out that McArthur arguably sailed the best race in 2000/2001 and would probably have beaten Desjoyeaux if she hadn't struck the container (not to take away anything from Mich's well-deserved victory).

If you fast forward to the 2011/2012 VG, it was really LeCleac'h who came across as the "emotionless robot" not Gabart, who looks really shaken in a number of the video feeds from the Southern Ocean, and is clearly moved very deeply by his reception in La Sable at the finish. And yet, the two men had nearly identical campaigns, identical boats, trained together for two years (under Desjoyeaux, no less), and raced neck-and-neck around the world. Both are professional sailors, though I would say Armel has paid more dues so far in his career.

Anyway, I bet we can all agree that anyone who can race an IMOCA 60 around the world, non-stop, singlehanded, is worthy of our respect and admiration. I know I am deeply moved by all of them and their love for the sea.


----------



## PCP

*Ker 50 C/R*

Prefered boat on the Sydney Hobart: Look at min 1.05

regattanews.com - Video Gallery

Amazing performance for a boat with this program:

Jason Ker: *"A 50' yacht designed to very specific requirements with a very complete bespoke interior, the brief was for a yacht that would undertake a combination of Cruising the Queensland coast in between bouts of competitive racing, and lift its keel above a sandbar in front of its home port. The design incorporates an innovative lifting keel system that preserves interior space while being much lighter typical systems. "*

The boat has a lifting Keel (2.2 to 3 m) it is not a Carbon boat (eglass), it is made in China by McConaghy and probably will have an attractive price.

The beautiful boat, "Kerumba", finished 19 in real time and the three boats immediately behind (real time) were an Open 50, a TP 52 and a VOR60

*"The crew changed With the majority of the crew stepping up from a Beneteau 44.7, the performance jump is being met with exhilaration in what has been described as a 'Beneteau on steroids'." *

As I have said, it is a beautiful performance cruiser....and an incredible fast one too:


----------



## capt vimes

Found this sketch on wild oats...


----------



## MrPelicano

capt vimes said:


> Found this sketch on wild oats...


I'd actually be quite interested to hear Mark Richards discuss whether or not DSS contributed anything to their success this year. It was a rather bold move to add that technology and I'm sure a lot of people are equally curious about its efficacy. From what I've read and seen, the DSS technology should be quite effective on a boat as big as Wild Oats XI, particulary given its comparative "narrow" beam (relative to, say, Perpetual Loyal, the VO70's and Beau Geste). Will be keeping my eyes open for any reports (no doubt on the DSS web site).


----------



## PCP

*Wild Oats and DSS*

Yes, people keep laughing about that Swiss army knife stuff ...and they keep winning races

Talking about the newest addition on that knife, the DSS system, it is the first time that the system had helped to won a race.



Of course he may had have a small role and none in what regards the conditions that allow Wild Oats to win (very light winds) but certainly took a big role on the end of the race, with strong winds keeping the speed of the boat close to the one of Loyal, whose hull design is much better suited for stronger winds, preventing any significant recovery.

That system, that is basically a small airplane wing that can be deployed on one side or another of the hull (the one that is heeled) works like the one in the airplane creating lift: On an airplane can take it airborne, on a boat opposes heel creating RM. Contrary to a keel that provides more lift at bigger heel angles, system generated RM has nothing to do with heel but only with speed (like an airplane wing): More speed, more lift.

And what kind of lift are we talking about? Well, at speed it can produce eight to ten tonnes of vertical lift.

That is huge and the advantages over the drag produced seem to be conclusive, helping a narrow and less powerful boat like Wild Oats to diminish their disadvantage over a much more powerful boat like Loyal (bigger beam) on the conditions were that extra power can be a decisive advantage.

Wild Oats went at some time of this race at 35K and the boat skipper could not be more convinced:

*" "The trial results were quite remarkable. There was an impressive increase in speed," said Wild Oats XI skipper Mark Richards prior to the Boxing Day start. Following the race he enthused how they hit 35 knots boat speed at one stage. "The new foils were phenomenal,' he said. "They gave us a lot more control in the extreme conditions, and the hard running we did today."

Chris Links, one of Wild Oats XI's helmsmen, said of the DSS foil before the race: "It gives us some more stability in those tighter angles and in the heavy downwind it lifts the bow 300mm. In those steep little seas it helps get us on to the waves and surf for longer. We have seen it really work a couple of times, which has really blown us away when it clicks in."

Arriving in Hobart, Wild Oats XI's wizened tactician Iain Murray attributed a 5% gain in Wild Oats XI's speed to the DSS foil, which had been put to good work as the wind built to more than 30 knots coming down the east coast of Tasmania and continued to build as they hardened up to cross the aptly named Storm Bay."*

I have said here before that from all innovations that have appeared recently in what regards sailing the DSS seemed to me the more promising. I have a big respect for its creator Hugh Welbourn and I believe that from now one we will see a lot of big yachts using this system that, according with its creator, on a boat created from the beginning to use it, it will be much more effective.

Maybe after all the Hugh Welbourn designed Infiniti 100R will see the light of day. I sure would like that:


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Wild Oats and DSS*



PCP said:


> Yes, people keep laughing about that Swiss army knife stuff ...and they keep winning races
> 
> Talking about the newest addition on that knife, the DSS system, it is the first time that the system had helped to won a race.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course he may had have a small role and none in what regards the conditions that allow Wild Oats to win (very light winds) but certainly took a big role on the end of the race, with strong winds keeping the speed of the boat close to the one of Loyal, whose hull design is much better suited for stronger winds, preventing any significant recovery.
> 
> That system, that is basically a small airplane wing that can be deployed on one side or another of the hull (the one that is heeled) works like the one in the airplane creating lift: On an airplane can take it airborne, on a boat opposes heel creating RM. Contrary to a keel that provides more lift at bigger heel angles, system generated RM has nothing to do with heel but only with speed (like an airplane wing): More speed, more lift.
> 
> And what kind of lift are we talking about? Well, at speed it can produce eight to ten tonnes of vertical lift.
> 
> That is huge and the advantages over the drag produced seem to be conclusive, helping a narrow and less powerful boat like Wild Oats to diminish their disadvantage over a much more powerful boat like Loyal (bigger beam) on the conditions were that extra power can be a decisive advantage.
> 
> Wild Oats went at some time of this race at 35K and the boat skipper could not be more convinced:
> 
> *" "The trial results were quite remarkable. There was an impressive increase in speed," said Wild Oats XI skipper Mark Richards prior to the Boxing Day start. Following the race he enthused how they hit 35 knots boat speed at one stage. "The new foils were phenomenal,' he said. "They gave us a lot more control in the extreme conditions, and the hard running we did today."
> 
> Chris Links, one of Wild Oats XI's helmsmen, said of the DSS foil before the race: "It gives us some more stability in those tighter angles and in the heavy downwind it lifts the bow 300mm. In those steep little seas it helps get us on to the waves and surf for longer. We have seen it really work a couple of times, which has really blown us away when it clicks in."
> 
> Arriving in Hobart, Wild Oats XI's wizened tactician Iain Murray attributed a 5% gain in Wild Oats XI's speed to the DSS foil, which had been put to good work as the wind built to more than 30 knots coming down the east coast of Tasmania and continued to build as they hardened up to cross the aptly named Storm Bay."*
> 
> I have said here before that from all innovations that have appeared recently in what regards sailing the DSS seemed to me the more promising. I have a big respect for its creator Hugh Welbourn and I believe that from now one we will see a lot of big yachts using this system that, according with its creator, on a boat created from the beginning to use it, it will be much more effective.
> 
> Maybe after all the Hugh Welbourn designed Infiniti 100R will see the light of day. I sure would like that:


Excellent! Really glad you found and posted this. Bet they're not going to share any of the actual data with the reading public though.


----------



## PCP

*More about Stamm's accident*

Stamm give an interview to the French Newspaper Figaro and some more information come to the light, namely what was already suspected: they sailed in "normal" conditions for that type of boat and the causes of the accident are unknown. They are tryng to understand how that could have happened.

Actualités Nautisme : l'actualité du nautisme au quotidien avec Figaro Nautisme

a translation of what is new regarding what he had already said and have already been posted:

*The seas were big with waves breaking regularly but everything had been preview to face these weather conditions: We were under storm jib and with 4 reefs in the main. Everything was under control: We were sailing downwind in a way that was similar to evasive sailing, running with the wind. The boat was doing 12/13K (out of surfs) and it was behaving very well. I was at the chart table with Danien Guillou when, in a wave, we heard a huge crack: the boat break completely in two parts.*

It is reasonable to sail in these conditions on delivery?

*There was a lot of wind, that's for sure but we knew what we were doing and we knew about the weather conditions..
We knew that we were going to have 3 or 4 hours with very strong wind but these boats are made for that.

We had 45K and some tomes 50K. We don't prepare for circumnavigations sailing in Britany with 15k winds.

Even at the time were the accident took place, we didn't feel the need to diminish the sail area and go to bare poles and that is a possibility in very strong winds. The boat was going well....and if we didn't stop we would only have one more hour of strong wind before it start to diminish...

The problem was with the boat, that is designed to sail on big seas, and broke in two....one thing is for sure: we were sailing much lower than the boat potential (under-speed) ... that's what is incredible. When we are racing and we are attacking exploiting the boat full potential..., then we are stressing the boats, but on this occasion we sailed in complete security and the boat was very little stressed. That makes no sense. 
*


----------



## DiasDePlaya

My dream boat now is the MD-35, a very narrow day sailer designed by Mills. Probably an interesting modification would be to install a DSS system!

Now a very little used MD-35 is for sale in Brazil for just $70.000. I hope that no one buy it before I get the money. (Maybe is an error to talk here about this Brazilian MD-35)


----------



## robelz

Maxi Yachts: Daten der neuen Maxi 1200 stehen fest - Yachten + Jollen | YACHT.DE

Tech specs for the Maxi1200:

6,9t
2,6t keel, 2,2m deep
84sqm sail area
150l fuel 
300l water

Really interesting if you ask me...


----------



## MrPelicano

DiasDePlaya said:


> My dream boat now is the MD-35, a very narrow day sailer designed by Mills. Probably an interesting modification would be to install a DSS system!
> 
> Now a very little used MD-35 is for sale in Brazil for just $70.000. I hope that no one buy it before I get the money. (Maybe is an error to talk here about this Brazilian MD-35)


You best grab it at that price. The one for sale in the U.S. is asking $149,000 / €109.000!


----------



## PCP

I agree, move it fast!!!! you don't need all the money. Make a contract, give a signal and give yourself time to get a loan.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

MrPelicano said:


> You best grab it at that price. The one for sale in the U.S. is asking $149,000 / €109.000!


This price is crazy as a new one ready to sail (instruments, sails, trailer, etc) is around $180.000. in Buenos Aires, just 1000 km from my house.

I'm in contact with the owner, but I need more money to do a serious offer for the boat.


----------



## PCP

*Ker 50 C/R MKII*

That's no joke. Some posts back I posted about a beautiful ker 50 performance cruiser that showed how fast it was on the Sydney-Hobart but Jason Ker has a brand new one for 2014. Well brand new maybe it is an exaggeration since they share the same hull, lifting keel and rudders but this one has a new cabin and is even nicer...and better for racing too since the cabin has less height.

No interior light? Plenty of it, almost all zenithal but also some port hulls with a view....and the interior is surprisingly nice.

The boat is made in China by McConaghy's and even made in China a top boat does not come cheap, it costs 1 million 350 thousand dollars, about the double of a XP50. Well, steroids are expensive


----------



## PCP

*Traditional sailboats*

Racing is racing but one thing is for sure: these babes need a lot of human ballast


----------



## robelz

Even if the Maxi 1200 is goodlooking and promising: So sad the dropped the plans for the Maxi 11 when Najad went into bankrupcy:

11m, target weight about 4,2-4,4t, 2,20 draft, perfect cockpit for racing and cruising...

The idea was to reduce weight consequently, e.g. by sofas in the saloon made of tubes covered with nets:


























Some more pictures:

Yacht-Entwicklung: Erste Skizzen der Maxi 11 - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
Maxi 11: Concept Sports Boat, Needs Your Input | boats.com Blog


----------



## PCP

*Maxi 1200*



robelz said:


> Even if the Maxi 1200 is good looking and promising: So sad the dropped the plans for the Maxi 11 when Najad went into bankrupcy:
> 
> 11m, target weight about 4,2-4,4t, 2,20 draft, perfect cockpit for racing and cruising...
> 
> ,,


Well, the new 1200 is light with 6.9T has a big B/D ratio and has a rigging very adapted to solo sailing (that's the part I like most) but the boat is a bit of a deception regarding the drawings I saw of the 11m. The designer is the same, the one that designs Maxi yachts for many years, Pelle Petterson, but the brief is different being the boat more performance cruising oriented and the hull is also different being this one a more classic one, less adapted to short crew sailing or racing.

But that is not what pisses me, what I don't like is the overall look, kind of a XP with Delphia looks with a interior without imagination, insisting on a 3 cabin version and central head and traditional chart table that results in a smallish saloon.











A boat with a big sailing potential that I don't like much that dificult to happen. Maybe because I liked a lot more the previous 11m design that Robelz had mentioned:





Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Maxi 1200*



PCP said:


> Well, the new 1200 is light with 6.9T has a big B/D ratio and has a rigging very adapted to solo sailing (that's the part I like most) but the boat is a bit of a deception regarding the drawings I saw of the 11m. The designer is the same, the one that designs Maxi yachts for many years, Pelle Petterson, but the brief is different being the boat more performance cruising oriented and the hull is also different being this one a more classic one, less adapted to short crew sailing or racing.
> 
> But that is not what pisses me, what I don't like is the overall look, kind of a XP with Delphia looks with a interior without imagination, insisting on a 3 cabin version and central head and traditional chart table that results in a smallish saloon.
> 
> A boat with a big sailing potential that I don't like much that dificult to happen. Maybe because I liked a lot more the previous 11m design that Robelz had mentioned:
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Totally agree. The second boat would be the one I'd choose without hesitation. But apparently the marketing department didn't think they could sell enough of those to make it worthwhile, so they opted for the "safe" choice - build another performance cruiser that's pretty much like everyone else's performance cruiser, except for the interior choices - 3 cabins, central heads, trade-off between decent offshore galley vs. chart table, etc. Maybe the charter market somewhere will appreciate this, but not me.


----------



## PCP

*Maxi 1200*

No, this is not a charter boat in fact it is a very fast performance cruiser (probably a expensive one, if he took Maxi prices as reference) with some oddities in what regards design and one of the more strange, for a performance boat that will certainly be also used for racing, is the absence of traveller

This boat will be a very fast one, a competitor with Xp yachts, Dehler, Salona, First, Arcona, Comet and Grand Soleil... and does not have a traveller?

I cannot see also a backstay adjuster but that can be skipped on the design at this phase, but not the traveler. Besides not having a traveler, the position of the winch regarding the main seems only work like that, I mean the line coming from the top of the cockpit table???? That means that table is not removable!!!!.....and that is just odd in what regards racing and even in what regards the use of the cockpit in a social way is just bad design comparing with all the others that have cockpit tables that "disappear" under the cockpit floor.

They have just been rescued from bankruptcy by Dehpia but I don't believe they will go far this way.


----------



## PCP

*Grand Soleil afloat again*

By the way, other brand that was saved from bankrupt was Grand Soleil, this time by Bavaria...but Bavaria had given up and leave them again on bankruptcy. I have commented that in the summer with an Italian friend that is in the boat business. He smiled and said that Germans would be never able to work with Italians

Well, this time it was an Italian that saved Grand Soleil, Davide Trevisani. We also owns Sly yachts. We will see if an Italian will succeed in putting Grand Soleil under the sun again.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Grand Soleil afloat again*



PCP said:


> By the way, other brand that was saved from bankrupt was Grand Soleil, this time by Bavaria...but Bavaria had given up and leave them again on bankruptcy. I have commented that in the summer with an Italian friend that is in the boat business. He smiled and said that Germans would be never able to work with Italians
> 
> Well, this time it was an Italian that saved Grand Soleil, Davide Trevisani. We also owns Sly yachts. We will see if an Italian will succeed in putting Grand Soleil under the sun again.


Yes, quite a pity about the fate of Grand Soleil, which built some beautiful boats that were quite competitive under IMS. Not sure how they fared under IRC, however. Always thought they looked expensive but were surprisingly affordable, for what you got. And perhaps that's why they couldn't stay in business. 

Sly builds some very cool boats that are all but unknown in North America. I remember a few years ago they got some attention in Sailing Anarchy but pretty much ignored in the sailing press over here. Not surprisingly.


----------



## PCP

*For the night, two great movies: solo racing transat movies*

2013, not winners, two different races, two different boats (Mini racer and Figaro class), two different stories: Hardy made 6th, Lipinski was rescued by a cargo ship.





Mini transat : l'incroyable aventure de Ian... _por voilesetvoiliers_





CAMERA EMBARQUEE A BORD D'AGIR RECOUVREMENT... _por Adrien-HARDY_


----------



## boknows

Really great boat I saw in Panama City Florida


----------



## PCP

I like the scarecrow, in this case scareseagull. A bit too ugly, but I bet, very effective.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: For the night, two great movies: solo racing transat movies*



PCP said:


> 2013, not winners, two different races, two different boats (Mini racer and Figaro class), two different stories: Hardy made 6th, Lipinski was rescued by a cargo ship.


If I understood the narrator correctly, it was Hardy who organized the recovery of Lipinski's boat and towed it to Cascais. That's really outstanding and says everything one needs to say about the quality of the singlehanded sailing community. Rescue was well-executed by the Polish bulk carrier as well, though pity Lipinski had to stay aboard all the way to Sfaz, Tunisia. 

Sad he couldn't complete the MT but terrific he got his boat back.

Thanks for sharing, Paulo.


----------



## robelz

*Re: Maxi 1200*



MrPelicano said:


> Totally agree. The second boat would be the one I'd choose without hesitation. But apparently the marketing department didn't think they could sell enough of those to make it worthwhile, so they opted for the "safe" choice - build another performance cruiser that's pretty much like everyone else's performance cruiser, except for the interior choices - 3 cabins, central heads, trade-off between decent offshore galley vs. chart table, etc. Maybe the charter market somewhere will appreciate this, but not me.


That is the point: The eleven was unique and completely amazing, the 1200 is just another performance cruiser...


PCP said:


> No, this is not a charter boat in fact it is a very fast performance cruiser (probably a expensive one, if he took Maxi prices as reference) with some oddities in what regards design and one of the more strange, for a performance boat that will certainly be also used for racing, is the absence of traveller
> 
> This boat will be a very fast one, a competitor with Xp yachts, Dehler, Salona, First, Arcona, Comet and Grand Soleil... and does not have a traveller?
> 
> I cannot see also a backstay adjuster but that can be skipped on the design at this phase, but not the traveler. Besides not having a traveler, the position of the winch regarding the main seems only work like that, I mean the line coming from the top of the cockpit table???? That means that table is not removable!!!!.....and that is just odd in what regards racing and even in what regards the use of the cockpit in a social way is just bad design comparing with all the others that have cockpit tables that "disappear" under the cockpit floor.
> 
> They have just been rescued from bankruptcy by Dehpia but I don't believe they will go far this way.


I cannot imagine that Delphia/Maxi will not offer an option with a traveller. I read somewhere that the Maxi prices built by Delphia are about 20-25% less than the Najad/Maxi's...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Maxi 1200*



robelz said:


> ...
> 
> I cannot imagine that Delphia/Maxi will not offer an option with a traveller. I read somewhere that the Maxi prices built by Delphia are about 20-25% less than the Najad/Maxi's...


I guess so but what troubles me is how that is going to work with a central winch on that position, It could not be direct so I would have to be a German sheeting system and if so it would imply horizontal lines crossing the cockpit creating an obstacle to a racing crew.

Unless they modify a lot a boat in what regards rigging, including the number and position of winches I cannot see how it will be done and modifying the position on winches is a lot more complicated than adding a traveler.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*A lovely wooden boat: Rosso 28*



For the look we would say: Italian design and yes, we would be right, it is an Italian one (Paolo Bua) but it is not only the look that is interesting, the building and the performances too.

The boat is made in France on a traditional small shipyard using mahogany / glass / epoxy strip planking all that to make a light boat that weights 1550 kg being almost half of it on a long hydraulic swing keel (1.95m). A carbon rig and lots of sail make this a very fun boat, a beautiful day sailor full of character that would be also good racing.

The boat was been making quite a steer in France being tested by sail magazines with testers loving the boat. Well, I love it too





Rosso 28 : la classe à l'italienne _por voilesetvoiliers_

You can see more information and lots of photos here:

Boatyard "Chantier des Ileaux" - Noirmoutier, France - Modern wooden boat building / Rosso 28

ESSAI VOILES & VOILIERS ? ROSSO 28 | Olivier BLANCHET


----------



## Faster

LOVE those building sequence photos!!


----------



## hannah2

Hi Paulo and all,

We made it to Martinique a couple days ago. 18 days from Tenerife in the Canaries. First 6 days 30 to 40 kts nothing below 30 just a couple of hours above forty mostly 35 to 40. Seas 4 meter swell from NW and wind swell from NE at 4 meters also. The Boreal 44 was wonderful, very sea kindly easy for just Tracy and I to manage. Those first 6 days we got pooped twice once over the cabin and once in the side of cockpit but nothing special. Breaking waves were often and we handled them great a bit of slide then powered off and down the line. Very nice as I know on our old Mason 44 we would have taken much longer to recover. Those first 6 days we averaged 185 NM a day and did not push it, I think with a crew we could have done a bit over 200 NM a day. The rest of the trip was so easy and enjoyable as we rum lined towards Martinique with genoa out on pole and stay sail out to other side wing on wing and main put away. Rest of trip 20 to 25 kts and nice following seas. We used the wind pilot much more than the NKE even dead down wind as long as we put both dagger boards down the wind pilot sailed between 174 and 174 off the wind. we enjoyed just going between 5.8 and 6.5 kts except surfing down some waves at 11 kts. We just just sat back and enjoyed our passage.

We have changed our plans for the S. Pacific and will bring the boat to the east coast of the states for a summer season and re outfit boat with better gear. As well as the Boreal is built they did not do a good job out fitting boat. It is our fault for not paying attention to how it was outfit. Too much cheap Lewmar blocks and gear that failed I hate china made! The boom was attached with rivets instead of machine threads and bolts as was the vang. With rivets everything holds fine until sails start to flog a bit and they start popping out. I have always hated rivets and I let Boreal convince me they are OK. But all good cruising boats need to be done differently for long travel and wear. More chafing than we have ever had in 40 years of sailing but I can live with that except the main sheet set up and Boreal is working hard on making it better. Boreal has been with us the whole way fixing any problem even coming down to Lonzerote to fix some interior wood problems that really was not so bad. They are a great company but still have a long way to go in understanding how a cruising boat is set up and not how a crazy Frenchman an his crew would sail such a boat. Unlike a Pogo the Boreal can be sailed like any regular cruising blue water boat and not heeled over at 17 degrees making life enjoyable. My hope is Boreal keeps learning how most cruisers sail and most sail short handed and all the new Boreal owners benifit from our feed back to Boreal. We are the most popular boat where ever we go, every Frenchman and woman come to visit us hoping for a tour of our boat which we give because we love the French especially from Brittany. We drink and talk sailing for hours! Just today we have had 4 dinks come by to ask about our Boreal all of them Ovni owners! 

Despite the small set backs that come with any new boat we are happy withe boat and I might consider though it is early our best boat ever. I'm hard as hell to please it takes about a year for me to make up my mind so far so good. 

Any questions go and ask I'll answer them as true as I can as I promised earlier in this thread.

Cheers

Steve and Tracy


----------



## Faster

Awesome update, Steve! Sounds like a good ride, and a good test too right off the bat.

Thanks for checking back in. If you see a small Bene 36.7 called 'Skitter Scamp' in your travels please say hello to Brian and Maggie from Ron and Eleanor


----------



## PCP

hannah2 said:


> ... Unlike a Pogo the Boreal can be sailed like any regular cruising blue water boat and not heeled over at 17 degrees making life enjoyable. ...


Hi Steve! Glad to know you have made a great passage and that the boat works as you expected.

Great post but I did not understand the comment quoted.

The Pogo, like your boat is a beamy boat has a hull based on Open boats and like your boat heels very little, downwind, even less, for a similar or bigger speed since it is a more stiff boat.

A Pogo, if they wants to go at the same speed as a Boreal, can be sailed the same way as your boat, with the exception that it will need much less sail and the efforts on the rig and to handle them are much smaller. Of course, the downside is that the loading ability is not the same and the interior comfort is not comparable.

A Pogo in one transat is on its element, like the Boreal can be solo sailed and carried on autopilot practically all the time. Only if one wants to sail a cruising Pogo at high speed the sailing and sensations would be different even if that has nothing to do with heeling. The boat plans and go over hull speed easily on the typical trade winds but heels very little downwind.

Best to you and Tracy.

Keep us posted.

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transat race: Cape to Rio*






Started yesterday, with the worse coverage I have ever seen on a Transat.

Here is the tracker, a bad one without any wind forecast or even indication:

XTra-Track ashBoard

The entries:

Entrants - Cape 2 Rio 2104

That goes from a VOR 70, an old Open 60 passing by several class 40 to some Bavarias, Beneteau the like, several cruising cats, a S&S 39 a SF 3200 and quite incredibly a German M34 an old style race with everything mixed up, mostly old racers and cruising boats.

This race deserved better and has the potential to be a classic...but not this way


----------



## PCP

*KISS Multihull AB T29: the fastest boat with a cruising potential?*

It seems so. The boat was tested by voile magazines and the numbers give no doubt: this one will smoke a Dragonfly, a Corsair and anything with a cruising interior and not much bigger. I bet that it will smoke some race boats too

On the test they got with 12K of wind:

at 100ºTRW - 17K

at 45ºTRW - 7.5K

at 140º - 13K

She does not only fly downwind as she can point decently and make a speed that most performance cruisers of that size would not match

What a boat...I know I know, the more conservative among the ones that follow this thread will be thinking: Another boat designed by young racers for young racers. Well, they can still race but they are certainly not young and since this boat was designed to be their personal boat I guess we can conclude that fast boats makes the tastes of some older guys and not only young athletes:



It is an all Carbon boat and taking into consideration that and the high quality of everything 200 000 euros (inc. 20% tax) does not seem excessive. I could not find photos of a finished interior but the ones published with the test on the magazine showed a very nice one with the galley all in carbon with a black top and a sloon table in carbon: very nice looking even if spartan. The boat tested had traditional high quality sails but they are also making experiences with a foiled wing sail.


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
Not sure if you read YACHT, the German magazine, but if you do there is an article in the November 2013 edition of one of my custom alu cruising boats. The article is on page 127.

I can't read German so I can't tell if the article is good or bad. It does look good to me.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Not sure if you read YACHT, the German magazine, but if you do there is an article in the November 2013 edition of one of my custom alu cruising boats. The article is on page 127.
> 
> I can't read German so I can't tell if the article is good or bad. It does look good to me.


It seems you have not looking to this thread for a while. I have posted about that boat and article some time ago

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Stravaganza*

Interesting things happen on the Swiss lakes, I mean sailing related

Stravaganza was designed to win the Centomiglia and was designed by Olympic medalist Jo Richards for Domenico Bruzzi. Have a look at this animal that has a rig of a TP52 Even so he did not yet manage to win that race. Hard to beat human ballast









Changing tack is quite an experience on that boat, they lose a lot of speed with that and probably have to reduce sail or they have to keep it very near the wind while they bring the keel all around the boat and in between the boat loses a lot of RM and become much less stable. Tricky for sure


----------



## PCP

*Clan Grok*

But that strange boat (Stravaganza) has not been able to beat a more "traditional" boat, Clan Grok, not on the last edition and not on this one. Both have been won by Clan Gork:













Nice boats


----------



## PCP

*Bad news on the Cape to Rio Yacht Race 2014*

The start:






The boats are sailing in 6 m waves, 40 to 60k winds and there are several boats with problems and one death to regret.

Billie, an Angolan Bavaria 54 with problems on the main sail tried to return to Cape Town for repairs, broke the mast and several were gravely injured. Later they announce that one had died.

The South African 38ft "Black Cat", a Dudley Dix design, broke one rudder and is coming back back to Cape Town, one crew has a sprained ankle and all are well.

The South African "Isla", a cruising cat (Schionning design) sent a mayday declaring having a fire aboard. It seems that the problem was contained: they have reported both engines inoperable, but the generator is working.

The South African "Ava" and old cruising Miura monohull reported battery problems. At 16.18 the EPIRB was triggered. It seems that the yacht continue to make course to Rio but the rescue teams were alerted.

PEEKAY, a Beneteau 51 have had sail problems and are going to Saldanha Bay.

At 19.30 the South African old cruising Fortuna 37 "DoDo" reported problems sayng that they lost steering and engine power. They are going to try to repair at sea.

The naval frigate, Islandwana, with a medical crew went to sea to the rescue and assistance to the yacht BIlle and Ava.

I hope everything goes well for all, but this kind of amateur racing transat risks a lot in what regards safety.

It is worth to mention that none of the racing boats had any problem including the small and light SF 3200 and the M34.

I will continue to follow this situation and this race.


----------



## robelz

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Not sure if you read YACHT, the German magazine, but if you do there is an article in the November 2013 edition of one of my custom alu cruising boats. The article is on page 127.
> 
> I can't read German so I can't tell if the article is good or bad. It does look good to me.


If you are really interested in this one I might translate it...


----------



## robelz

The Capetown race has its first victim: a sailor was hit by his boat's mast when the boat was dismasted in heavy seas...


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Bad news on the Cape to Rio Yacht Race 2014*



PCP said:


> The South African 38ft "Black Cat", a Dudley Dix design, broke one rudder and is coming back back to Cape Town, one crew has a sprained ankle and all are well.


Black Cat is not only a dudley dix design - a didi 38, she was build by himself as a prototype to his round chin plywood epoxy designs in his backyard back in the 90s...
and skippered by him in 2 editions of this race - he is skippering her right now again... 
Didi 38 radius chine plywood sailboat


----------



## PCP

*Transat Cape 2 Rio*



capt vimes said:


> Black Cat is not only a dudley dix design - a didi 38, she was build by himself as a prototype to his round chin plywood epoxy designs in his backyard back in the 90s...
> and skippered by him in 2 editions of this race - he is skippering her right now again...
> Didi 38 radius chine plywood sailboat


Very interesting. You are right, only saw that was a Dudley Dix boat, I did not noticed that it was him skipping the boat. A very nice design considering that it is an almost 20 years old design!





Dudley Dix has just went up on my consideration: He is 69 year's old and was racing his 20 year old boat like a kid across the South Atlantic in the middle of a big storm. His boat broke the rudder, he did not called for help and is returning home. My kind of boat designer

He is making way towards Cape Town. I hope he can make it alone without help, a feat in itself, with a broken ruder on those conditions.

The coverage of the race is miserable, as I have already noticed, and not even on these circumstances they gave more information but we can see on the tracker that:

Peekay, a Benetrau 51 with mainsail problems was able to make it to Saldanha bay and is on sheltered waters.

That Fti Flyer, a not mentioned boat in trouble, another old designed 30 year old boat, a small one with 33ft ( a Charger designed by Angelo Lavranos), after an erratic course is also returning to Cape town.

That Avocet, also not mentioned, a Beneteau 45 is also returning to Cape Town.

Avanti, a Vickers 41 passagemaker designed by Dudley Dix is also coming back and seems to be heading to Saldanha bay.

Isla, the Schionning cruising cat that sent a mayday is trying to come back. He has no engine (both out of service) and a flooded engine compartment.

Jacaranda, a Vand de Stadt Madeira 44 is advancing very slowly and in an erratic way.

Do Do, the old Fortuna 37 that reported engine and steering problems seems to be sailing slowly but on a fixed course so maybe they have sorted out and repaired the steering problems. It is not clear if they are returning or not.

Ava, a Miura a 30 year old design by Herman Zimmerman is also going very slowly, not far from the Do Do. Also not clear if they are coming back or no.

The Bavaria 54 Bille, with on dead and several injured aboard, is being assisted by a South African Navy frigate.


----------



## capt vimes

The didi 38/40cr is really a very interesting design... I have the study plans back home, because i was interested in the building method for a homebuild some years ago...
It really looks neat and should be fairly easy to build, if time would allow me so beside my job... *puke*
I new about him skippering from his blog:
Dudley Dix Yacht Design


----------



## PCP

*Race; Cape 2 Rio*

But this is a race too and while many cruising boats are having problems the racing boats and performance cruisers are way ahead. The first is without any Surprise Maserati, a VOR 70, the second, at some distance is Scarlet Runner, an interesting performance cruiser (Reichel&Pugh designed), like a kind of TP 52 with a cruising interior, followed by an old Open 60. Not very far a 40class racer that is being double handed.

The boat that is next (and almost at the on pair with the 40class racer) is an incredible one, I mean it is not a racer designed for transats and even if it is an offshore boat is designed for regattas on more coastal conditions, in fact it was specifically designed for the Tour the France and it is showing that it could not only take the conditions that made much bigger cruisers went for shelter as it is going like a rocket: The Archambault M34, designed few years ago by Joubert-Nivelt-Mercier. This racer (Volvo add on the spi):






Also close from the class 40 an incredibly well sailed Simonis 35, a fast performance cruiser designed by Simonis or maybe not because contrary to the entry list they give it on the tracker has being a Nose be 38, a Lavranos designed fast cat?

Two other cats are not far away, both Leopard.

This video taken yesterday on board Maserati show the conditions they have taken. Not very impressive aboard a VOR 70, but these boats are very seaworthy (and big).


----------



## robelz

*Re: Race; Cape 2 Rio*



PCP said:


> But this is a race too and while many cruising boats are having problems the racing boats and performance cruisers are way ahead. The first is without any Surprise Maserati, a VOR 70, the second, at some distance is Scarlet Runner, an interesting performance cruiser (Reichel&Pugh designed), like a kind of TP 52 with a cruising interior, followed by an old Open 60. Not very far a 40class racer that is being double handed.


Maserati is not only a VOR70 but a tuned up one. Its performance should be a lot better than the usual VOR-performance.


PCP said:


> I mean it is not a racer designed for transats and even if it is an offshore boat is designed for regattas on more coastal conditions, in fact it was specifically designed for the Tour the France and it is showing that it could not only take the conditions that made much bigger cruisers went for shelter as it is going like a rocket: The Archambault M34, designed few years ago by Joubert-Nivelt-Mercier. This racer (Volvo add on the spi):


If you read reviews from TdF sailors it is fast but crap to sail...


PCP said:


> This video taken yesterday on board Maserati show the conditions they have taken. Not very impressive aboard a VOR 70, but these boats are very seaworthy (and big).


Maserati was so fast it was ahead of the worst weather. They had 40kn but never 60 as its followers had...


----------



## bobperry

Dudley is a good man. He has stayed at my house with his family. I was the one who gave him the knickname "Didi".


----------



## bobperry

Robelz:
Thanks for offerring to translate but I don't want to bother you with that.
Bob P.


----------



## PCP

*M34*



robelz said:


> Maserati is not only a VOR70 but a tuned up one. Its performance should be a lot better than the usual VOR-performance.


I don't think you are right here. Yes Maserati is the old Ericsson 4, an older generation VOR70. Sure it is bettered regarding Ericsson 4 in what regards rigging but is not a match for none of the top VOR70 from the last generation, Groupama, Telefonica, Camper or Puma. Probably faster than the new Farr VOR 65 though



robelz said:


> If you read reviews from TdF sailors it is fast but crap to sail...


Yes, I have read them...in French and I would say that it is a mixed opinion regarding what they hoped for but remember that they are comparing the A34 with the previous boat, the Farr 30. I never heard about "crap to sail" but about not has fun as some expected.

Beaucoup d?attentes, toujours en transition - Tour de France à la voile | skippers.tv: Voiles, Régates, Croisières, Vidéos et Actualités.

The boat potential, whatever the design, would be considerably limited by the max beam that was allowed on the design (that had to do with the boat being able to be transported on a normal trailer) and also because for not being expensive and accessible to many teams, it is not a Carbon boat but a fiberglass one (epoxy) and therefore relatively heavy for a top race boat.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Maserati is 10% lighter, the keel is deeper and the center of gravity is further aft to enhance downwind performance. Plus the new rigg that brings some more sqm I think...


----------



## bobperry

Why would moving the center of gravity aft enhance downwind performance?


----------



## robelz

bobperry said:


> Why would moving the center of gravity aft enhance downwind performance?


Should be easier to lift the bow...


----------



## PCP

*Trimaran Whisper 29*

I have talked some posts back about what is probably the fastest (small) sailing boat with cruising potential, a trimaran. The offer in what regards cruising trimarans is very reduced probably because they are expensive to build an necessarily expensive for the interior space they offer.

There is a Finnish one that we did not yet talked about, the whisper 29. A good interior and certainly fast as all light trimarans even if this one offers a better and heavier cruising interior than the Corsair one that seemd to have about the same quality of the Dragonfly:

Trimaraani on vakaa purjevene, retkivene ja nopea kilpavene yhdessä. Tuotekehityksen avaintavoitteena mahdollisuudet tulevaisuuden taloudelliseen veneilyyn EU:ssa ja Suomessa


----------



## bobperry

OK, I'll go with that but it may have more to do with longitudinal center of flotation (LCF) than LCG.


----------



## robelz

bobperry said:


> OK, I'll go with that but it may have more to do with longitudinal center of flotation (LCF) than LCG.


You are the NA, I am just a lawyer...

I just repated (and tried to translate) what Boris Herrmann (German navigator of Maserati) told...


----------



## bobperry

Rob:
I don't know. I'm just speculating and because LCG and LCF are usually quite close together that it involves both centers. A boat will change fore and aft trim around trhe LCF. But it would be hard to move LCG aft without also moving LCF aft also. Not impossible but unusual.


----------



## PCP

*Cape 2 Rio*

Update on the situation:

One more boat returning home, a Vand de stadt 34, Indaba with an injured crew member.

Regarding the others returning home or in trouble and the conditions:

*"The majority of the fleet were still suffering rough sea conditions last night with poor visibility and a lot of rain this morning. 
The current situation on the following yachts:

BILLE (Bavaria 54) - All crew of have now been transferred to SAS Islandwana. Two reported injured crew, the skipper with broken ribs and one crew member with lacerations..
Then the navy managed to clear all damaged rigging and have left the vessel to return to later. Once crew were secured, SAS Islandwana immediately left the area to go to assist yacht AVA.

AVA (Miura) - We have just had a report from SAS Islandwana that they have spotted yacht in very poor visibility. AVA sailing without power and communications but all well on board. SAS Islandwana now on their way to yacht Isla.

ISLA ( Schionning cruising cat ) reported late last night taking on water in the engine compartment and an electrical fire. They have had a container vessel Bosun, standing by for assistance since early this morning. All is under control and the yacht has decided to continue under sail to Saldanha. Smit Madura is on station with yacht Isla possibly to tow them back to port.

BLACK CAT (DiDi 38) - NSRI Station 3 are on route to tow her back to shore due to no steerage from a broken rudder.

.....

PEEKAY (Beneteau 51) safely in harbour at Yachtport.

DO DO (Fortuna 37 ), AVOCET (Beneteau 45), AVANTI (Vickers 41) and FTI Flyer (Charger 33) - are currently heading back to shore.

Tranquillo are only able to receive calls, otherwise all well.

....
Some trackers have been reported not to be moving but XtraLink are on top of each issue and most should be sorted by now." *

We don't have any weather information trough the tracker. I will look at it later to see what they have ahead but for now all on that are racing seem to be doing well, including the smaller boat, a SF 3200 that sailed duo is on the front pack, behind the big boats.


----------



## PCP

*Yelken Octuri*

Do you have ever heard about Yelken Octuri, Yeh, I know he is just a designer and that their designs don't have a technical basis, they did not even make sense... but who cares, we all need to dream and his drawings are beautiful:











Don't miss the drawings that are better than the movies:

Flying yacht - OCTURI - Design & Interior, Fictional aircraft, Light

Sailing aircraft - OCTURI - Design & Interior, Fictional aircraft, Light


----------



## capt vimes

robelz said:


> ... and the center of gravity is further aft to enhance downwind performance.


But that would mean massive changes to the hull...
How can you bring the CG further aft without moving the heaviest parts - keel and mast?
And moving weight around like motor would definitely don't do the trick on an mzig ton boat... Heck - their sail wardrobe is heavier...
I doubt that this has been done... Why invest money in a dead horse?
The VO70s are gone, which is sad and a shame...


----------



## robelz

capt vimes said:


> But that would mean massive changes to the hull...
> How can you bring the CG further aft without moving the heaviest parts - keel and mast?
> And moving weight around like motor would definitely don't do the trick on an mzig ton boat... Heck - their sail wardrobe is heavier...
> I doubt that this has been done... Why invest money in a dead horse?
> The VO70s are gone, which is sad and a shame...


Maserati isn't supposed to do the VOR, it is rebuilt as a record chaser... That is why they modified it...


----------



## capt vimes

robelz said:


> Maserati isn't supposed to do the VOR, it is rebuilt as a record chaser... That is why they modified it...


i know - it cannot do the VOR any more... record chasing is good, but it does not answer my questions:
'But that would mean massive changes to the hull...
How can you bring the CG further aft without moving the heaviest parts - keel and mast?'
the keel alone holds around 45% of the weight - you know that moving the fixture of a canting keel means MASSIVE reconstruction of the support structure?
why in the world should anybody do that?
it is probably cheaper - and safer in terms of structural integrity - to build a new hull from scratch...


----------



## robelz

capt vimes said:


> i know - it cannot do the VOR any more... record chasing is good, but it does not answer my questions:
> 'But that would mean massive changes to the hull...
> How can you bring the CG further aft without moving the heaviest parts - keel and mast?'
> the keel alone holds around 45% of the weight - you know that moving the fixture of a canting keel means MASSIVE reconstruction of the support structure?
> why in the world should anybody do that?
> it is probably cheaper - and safer in terms of structural integrity - to build a new hull from scratch...


Wouldn't it be possible just to fix the bulb further aft? Making an L out of a T?


----------



## robelz

It has already been on a weight reduction program, resulting in a 10% drop in weight. Just as with roadgoing Maseratis the weight distribution has been optimized rearwards, to make it particularly well-suited to high-speed sailing.

From the Maserati page...


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> i know - it cannot do the VOR any more... record chasing is good, but it does not answer my questions:
> 'But that would mean massive changes to the hull...
> How can you bring the CG further aft without moving the heaviest parts - keel and mast?'
> the keel alone holds around 45% of the weight - you know that moving the fixture of a canting keel means MASSIVE reconstruction of the support structure?
> why in the world should anybody do that?
> it is probably cheaper - and safer in terms of structural integrity - to build a new hull from scratch...


There is the idea that Carbon boats are not easily repaired or modified and that is partially true on the sense that needs more equipment, the same it was used to do the boat in first place but given that pretty much is possible. There are racing boats that have been considerably lengthened, some Australian big ones and the the same with some ORMA boats (trimarans) that were transformed in new bigger trimarans cannibalizing the smaller boats.

It can be made but it is hugely expensive so in the end probably you are right and they did not modify substantially the keel placement and as Robelz suggest probably they just brought the bulb aft and only that will make some difference. We are talking here about small differences. I don't believe that the boat was wrongly designed. In its time it w a winner and the boat had beaten then the monohul 24 hours record. We are talking about very small modifications to better the boat, not big changes.











Yes, the boat cannot race the VOR anymore, since it is a mono class now but could have raced the last edition. It didn't race it because it was not competitive anymore regarding the new VOR generation. Nobody would be wasting a fortune on a new boat if an old one with some modifications could win the race.

Robelz, what makes a boat good for chasing records, I mean long distance ocean records, is not different than what makes him good for racing the VOR. The difference is that while beating records the crew is choosing the weather for a perfect run and the boat does it alone, on the VOR they don't chose the weather and are on direct competition with other boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

robelz said:


> It has already been on a weight reduction program, resulting in a 10% drop in weight. Just as with roadgoing Maseratis the weight distribution has been optimized rearwards, to make it particularly well-suited to high-speed sailing.
> 
> From the Maserati page...


i believe you.
but to me it seems that reducing the weight of an VOR 70 is like sending a really skinny model to hospital for a liposuction... 
i mean - 10% of a rated displacement of 14 t is still 1,4 t... i have no idea where they should have scraped that off since a raceboat is nothing but structure and mechanics (sails, rig, deck hardware, appendages...)
Groupama 4



> Wouldn't it be possible just to fix the bulb further aft? Making an L out of a T?


i guess - but i wager not without reinforcing or redesigning the keel blade as well...


----------



## PCP

*WOW!! boat: TT700*

Lots of WOW boats but few that we can buy and this is one of them, an incredible boat. I had some difficulty in believing my eyes This is a boat designed on a mini racer type of hull, a big bigger, but with an unbelievable interior and a classy outside look. Designed by Zerbinati it was home built by a naval engineer that obviously new what he was doing. Now the boat is built on a small production scale.

On the movie skip the talk and have a good look at the interior...amazing!!!














SAM Yacht


----------



## robelz

capt vimes said:


> i guess - but i wager not without reinforcing or redesigning the keel blade as well...


As I wrote they gave it a longer keel (with a lighter bulb) so a) a part of the weight reduction comes from the keel and b) they obviously redesigned the keel...


----------



## PCP

*Masetati / Ericsson 4*



robelz said:


> As I wrote they gave it a longer keel (with a lighter bulb) so a) a part of the weight reduction comes from the keel and b) they obviously redesigned the keel...


Here are they, or should I say here it is the boat:



In fact it seems that the bulb is slightly pulled aft.

Regarding draft there is a 0.8m difference but as you recall there was a big fight at the time because measures arbitrarily obliged the Ericsson 4 keel to be modified (in JK opinion) taking out 350kg from the bulb.

So in fact if we join those kgs to the ones that a bulb positioned 80cms lower will save, it is possible that we reach about 1000kgs. Maybe a lighter mast would have helped to save some kgs too. I believe Vimes is correct in saying that in what regards the hull no significant savings were possible.





Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Stanley Paris in trouble*

Loss of Sail and Injury:

*"New Years Eve started out well, but by early morning the wind picked up and I was caught with a light headwind sail, which was in danger of being overloaded. On several occasions I had to take the helm. It was a scary situation and no sleep for me. The 1/2 bottle of champagne to celebrate the new year had not been touched. Finally at 4:00 am, a gust blew out the sail and torn fabric filled the air with a swooshing sound. It was dark and there was nothing I could do but watch the sail self destruct. Come dawn, I started the long process of getting the sail down and on deck before stuffing it away below. This would have been too dangerous to do at night. It is a pile of scraps.

While pulling on some pieces stuck in the shrouds, one piece suddenly gave way and I fell flat on my back onto an extrusion of the deck. The pain just below my left scapula was in as much as any pain I have ever experienced. I lay still for a few minutes testing my lungs and then started to get going. I could feel a rib cracking in my back. Crawling was out, as my left arm could take no weight. A few more actions and I collapsed for several hours in the cockpit.

Today, three days later, I am doing better, but am very limited with what I can do with the left arm. It's getting better and will take a few more days before some of the needed tasks on the boat can be attended to. I am now sailing conservatively and gently, until such time as I am ready again and can attend to a number of tasks...."*


----------



## PCP

*Mini racing*

Another great movie taken on the last transat, Cape Finisterra to be precise.


----------



## PCP

*Mini racer beached:*

That is the second time I see a mini racer violently beached....and get away with it. This one, after a failed attempt to tow it was just pulled up by an helicopter and put on the sea again were it was towed (they had took the mast out). Impressive


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mini racing*



PCP said:


> Another great movie taken on the last transat, Cape Finisterra to be precise.


I have to confess that as I was watching this video I kept thinking: "Why doesn't he put up the A5 spinnaker?" And I had to keep reminding myself that it's blowing like stink and the sea state is a bit confused - not the best recipe for flying the kite when you're only a few days into the race. 

But then I'm thinking: "Somewhere out there Pedote, Belloir, Mettraux, Marie, etc., all probably have spinnakers up." 

So, I don't believe I have what it takes to be a competitive Mini racer.


----------



## PCP

You are crazy The guy is saying that he had just taken the Spi out, almost 40K of wind, the small boat doing what seems to be 16K in a very disorganized sea and you want to fly the spy?

You should be racing these babies

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Transaquadra: Twenty years of racing (amateur transat)*





20 ans, le bel âge de la Transquadra! _por overlapprod_

News about the Transquadra: the racing solo or duo Transat for amateurs with more than 40 years of age.

More than 80 boats are already in and the number is growing rapidly.

They have made the type of boats more uniform in what regards performance and they will have for the first time an overall classification in real time.

The handicaps allowed were shortened and now they are between 0.949 < TCC-IRC < 1,051 (previously the max allowed was 1,074). That means that boats that were preciously allowed like the J122, Opium 39, Pogo 10.50 are not allowed anymore.

Besides that the boats have to be class A, a hull length between 8,50 m and 12.50 m, having a fixed engine able to push them at 5K and be in accordance with Special Offshore l'ISAF, cat. 1.

Some of the boats that will be competing: Sun Fast 3200 (several), Sunfast 3600, A 35 (several), JPK 10.10 (several), J109, Pogo 30, Elan 350 (several), JPK 9.60 (several), Grand Soleil 37, A31 (several), First 30, Mat 10.10, Dehler 36, Mistral 9.50, Malango 8.88, Sormiou 29 (several), RM 10.60, Bongo 9.60, First 40.7, Azzure 40, Fabulo 36

Only one SF 3600 and none JPK 10.80. Maybe they will appear later. Anyway, lots of interesting boats

http://www.transquadra.com/documentations/AVIS DE COURSE TQS 2014 2015 mai 2012.1.pdf

Transquadra 2014-2015 | Transat solitaire et double r?serv?e aux amateurs.


----------



## capt vimes

dudley dix and his crew from Black Cat is back to cape town, after they have lost there rudder, rigged a jury rudder and tried to make there way to saldhana bay it got even worse:


> Sean, a surfer like me, says that he suddenly felt the same feeling as when caught inside the impact zone of a big surf break, where you have no way of escaping the beating that is about to be dealt to you and you just have to take it on the head and cope with it. In the darkness he did not see the wave coming but became aware of it as it loomed over the boat. It was very large and broke as a hollow tubing wave copmpletely enveloping "Black Cat". She rose up the face of the wave, rotating as she rose until she was hanging from the roof of the tube. Then she fell or was thrown down the face of the wave with the mast going in first. The crash that I heard inside the boat must have been the cabin and deck hitting the water. While this was happening I also looked into the cockpit for Sean and he was hanging from a winch or whatever he had been able to grab as the wave reared up. I required that all crew be hooked on with safety harnesses before going on deck but Sean was hanging on so tight that his harness had no work to do.


they did not loose their mast apparently, so i guess that the wave must have been a real monster lifting the boat high enough so that the forces on the mast were bearable for it...
full story hear:
Dudley Dix Yacht Design


----------



## PCP

*Dudley Dix - Didi 38*

They had almost no ruder, lost previously and were rolled on that wave.

Dudley Dix gives another view, from the inside of the boat:

*....
Feeling a bit over-powered in the squalls we were reefing the mainsail when a squall of somewhat over 40 knots hit us. We were now entering the SW winds behind the front, so I changed from our westerly course to a NW heading, taking pressure off the sails. Despite that, the wind over the deck increased to over 50 knots and shredded our new carbon jib, leaving us under main only.

While changing from the #1 jib to the smaller #3, we were running before and gaining speed rapidly. Wavy was standing on the foredeck at the forestay, hauling down the tatters of the jib when we took off down a wave, accelerating to about 20 knots. The waves were very short and steep and we ran stright into the back of the next wave, washing Wavy aft against the shrouds, spraining his ankle and inflating his automatic life-jacket. At the same time the tiller went sloppy in my hands. Although "Black Cat" was running fast and straight down the wave she was doing it on her own, we had no steering.

We dropped all sail and elected to sit out the worsening conditions before setting up a jury rudder to take us back to Cape Town. "Black Cat" was comfortable and in no danger. While we waited we saw the German entry "Iskareen" sail past from behind. We thought that this very fast boat was ahead of us so it came as a surprise to see them come past.

The wind and sea moderated quite quickly from that first storm and we put our minds to making a jury rudder. Sean Collins went over onto the sugar-scoop to screw and strap it to the stub of the rudder that remained below the pintels. It worked reasonably but we treated it gingerly for fear of breaking it. We motored on a heading for Cape Town but as the day progressed the conditions slowly deteriorated as a second storm started to move in. I saw that we were not going to lay Cape Town so elected to rather head for the closer and easier Saldanha Bay.

As the night went on this storm grew progressively more violent. We were in the SW quadrant of the storm about which the weatherman had warned us. We had no desire to be in that position at that time but we had no choice in the matter. Fate had placed us there and we could only do our best to cope with the situation as it developed.

Around 3am there was a massive bang, a noise that sounded like the boat being ripped apart. Sean shouted a warning from the cockpit that I can't repeat in present company. Suddenly we were upside down and the cabin was filled with flying bodies and objects that were loose in the cabin and also those that were inside closed and latched lockers. I had been sleeping on the starboard saloon settee and had only a few seconds earlier stood up to walk aft to the cockpit. I was still in the saloon and was hit on my face and top of my head by unidentified flying debris, leaving me with cuts and a black eye.

The noise of this impact was so great and our up-turned position so alarming that I thought that the keel had come off. I was on the cabin roof and looked up at the bilge, all cabin soles having fallen out. I saw no gaping hole as I expected but shouted "Everybody out!!", still thinking that we had no keel. This all happened in a few seconds, then suddenly she was upright again and I knew that we still had a keel. We were left with an awful mess of food packages, cabin sole panels, tumblers, containers and anything else that managed to find its way out of its alloted place. And there was water everywhere. There had been some in the bilge but a lot more had come in through the companion hatch and a hole that we had no yet identified.

With no instruction from anyone this very capable crew automatically set about sorting out the chaos, first picking up anything that could block the bilge pumps before starting to pump out the water. The day fridge, which had been bolted into the saloon table, had relocated itself to the settee on which I had been lying only 30 seconds earlier. Three fire extinguishers, mounted in brackets from which they are removed vertically, all fell out when we were inverted and flew across to the starboard side of the cabin. Only two of the five onboard were in steel straps with locking mechanisms that held them firmly in place, the other three fell out and became lethal missiles.

Next we discovered what the hole was that had appeared in the deck. During the inversion process the tail of the mainsheet went over the side and attached itself to the propeller and wound itself up to the point that it stopped the diesel motor. It had so much tension in it that the force downward on the upper guardrail wire punched the nearest stanchion through the 12mm plywood deck. That left a hole about 75mm diameter into the locker below, where my clothes were. From there the water spread itself all over the starboard aft cabin, soaking everything that Wavy and I had in that cabin. That was all of our clothes, bedding, camera bags etc.

Of more consequence, the volume of water that came into the boat spread itself over the chart table, the lid of which had ripped right off, and into the electrical panel and electronics. The two satellite phones and main VHF radio were drowned, leaving us with only a hand-held VHF of limited range with which to communicate. Smelling smoke, Wavy opened the electrical panel to see smoke coming out but it didn't develop into a fire.

Time stands still in these situations. I have no idea how long it took us to clean up the boat but she was back to a semblence of ship-shape before too long. The hole in the deck was plugged as well as possible with some muti that we had brought onboard the day before the race start.

In the midst of all this Sean came down from the cockpit and described what had happened. From inside the boat we had no idea, it was just massive noise and upside-downness.

.....

This wave was much bigger and more violent than any others we had felt or seen. If that one could clobber us there may also be others, so we streamed warps from the bow and deployed the storm jib as a sea anchor to try to hold her bow-on to the waves. These did not seem to help much because the underwater current seemed to be pretty much the same speed as our drift. We didn't get her to lie more than about 20-25 degrees from broadside-on to the waves but it seemed to be enough to ease the motion a bit and cause other breaking waves to roll past the port quarter instead of hitting us amidships.

The worsening storm and loss of major communications prompted us to ask Cape Town Radio to put out a Pan-Pan message on our behalf to warn of our location in the shipping lane and to ask for the NSRI (National Sea Rescue Institute) to be called to our assistance. We advised that we were in no immediate danger but would appreciate assistance when it could be provided....

In the morning conditions again subsided. Wavy went over the side in his diving gear to free the mainsheet from the prop, which allowed us to restart the motor. A new and improved version of the jury rudder was fabricated from plywood cannibalised from the lazarette and we continued on our journey toward Saldanha Bay at 4-5 knots under our own power. Early afternoon the NSRI Rescue 3 arrived from Cape Town. They offered us the choice of continuing under our own steam to Saldanha Bay or accepting their tow back to Cape Town.

We took the tow and headed for Cape Town at 10 knots. Manoeuvring into the RCYC basin proved to be more difficult than anticipated because the jury rudder boards added to the starboard side of the rudder severly limited rudder movement in that direction. Add a pomping SE gale and we sorely needed the welcoming hands on the dock to catch us as we came in at rather high speed and with negligible control.....

My big question out of all of this was "Why did the rudder break?". It had a solid Iroko spine nearly 100mm thick and 150mm wide, extending top to bottom, with plywood fairing to leading and trailing edges. That is a massive piece of timber that really should not have been broken by a 20 knot surf. The answer came from the owner, Adrian Pearson.

He told me that when "Black Cat" was squeezed between the steel marinas a few weeks ago when the mooring chains broke, it was not only the hull and keel that were damaged. He said that the rudder was also "graunched". If that is so, it may have started a fracture of the rudder spine that culminated in the blade shearing off at high speed.....

And a big thank you must also go to our Didi 38 "Black Cat". She took a hammering on our behalf and came through with negligible damage."*
Dudley Dix Yacht Design

Great story...tough sailors on that boat and fast ones too. They said that they were ahead of that M34 that is making a fantastic race. T

Rogue waves seem to be more frequent. Two days ago, with a forecast prevision of 40 to 50m waves on the shore, two giant waves come in and made a huge havoc on the Portuguese shore. Entire restaurants disappeared in the sea, boats were town to land others sunk.


----------



## MrPelicano

PCP said:


> You are crazy The guy is saying that he had just taken the Spi out, almost 40K of wind, the small boat doing what seems to be 16K in a very disorganized sea and you want to fly the spy?
> 
> You should be racing these babies
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, that's what I heard him say. But there is one part of my brain saying: "Put the spi back up!" and another side saying: "This is crazy! How far am I from Cascais and a hot shower?"

If I do the first, then I am in the class of Marie and Pedote. If I do the second, then I am closer to being myself.


----------



## PCP

*Rescues*

Two of the boats rescued and towed by SA rescue services. The main problem with both sailboats seem to be engines out of order.





An interview with the crew of the Didi 38. The boat seems very nice and tide, considering it was rolled.






The crew from Black Cat talk about the NSRI from Steve Searle on Vimeo.

They also rescued another boat that was not making this race, Ideafix 2. The boat was abandoned by the two French that crewed it but I don't know what type of yacht or the nature of the problem.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-afr...escues-almost-complete-1.1629637#.Us133NJdV8E


----------



## capt vimes

there has been an explicit warning issued to avoid the SW quadrant of that storm...
well in this quadrant the wind works hard against the bengueala current and i am quite certain that that is a an almost 100% guarantee for big breaking waves...
but i sure cannot say where it happened and which direction the waves or them were going...
there is a good image on the race homepage showing the weathersystem:








and he stated also that they had SW winds which would fit to the picture so the wave should have run the same way and that is against the current there...


----------



## PCP

*Cape 2 Rio*

That had happened only two days after race start and was pretty much predictable and raises the question about why the race direction did not postponed the race. Pretty much unbelievable if we take into consideration that this is an amateur race with many old or small boats racing and not professional crews.

Recently a highly professional transat with much bigger and seaworthy boats with professional crews was postponed for several days till the race direction considered that conditions were safe to all.

Regarding the race nothing new, Maserati on the lead and the old Open 60 catching Scarlet Runner, that TP52 with a cruising interior. That M34 continues to make an absolutely incredible race and looks to me to be ahead of the Class 40, just behind the three big boats.

Those guys are crazy to be doing this on that type of boat but fact is that they passed by a big storm without problems and keep pushing. I have to post a picture of the boat for you all understand why I say it looks madness to me:





Yes, this is the boat, a regatta boat. They have made the Tour de France and finished on the last places. No they are not bad sailors, the Tour de France has just incredibly good professional sailors. They are very good, as we can see by their fantastic performance on this race, even if a crazy one.


----------



## robelz

*Re: Transaquadra: Twenty years of racing (amateur transat)*



PCP said:


> 20 ans, le bel âge de la Transquadra! _por overlapprod_
> 
> News about the Transquadra: the racing solo or duo Transat for amateurs with more than 40 years of age.
> 
> More than 80 boats are already in and the number is growing rapidly.
> 
> They have made the type of boats more uniform in what regards performance and they will have for the first time an overall classification in real time.
> 
> The handicaps allowed were shortened and now they are between 0.949 < TCC-IRC < 1,051 (previously the max allowed was 1,074). That means that boats that were preciously allowed like the J122, Opium 39, Pogo 10.50 are not allowed anymore.
> 
> Besides that the boats have to be class A, a hull length between 8,50 m and 12.50 m, having a fixed engine able to push them at 5K and be in accordance with Special Offshore l'ISAF, cat. 1.
> 
> Some of the boats that will be competing: Sun Fast 3200 (several), Sunfast 3600, A 35 (several), JPK 10.10 (several), J109, Pogo 30, Elan 350 (several), JPK 9.60 (several), Grand Soleil 37, A31 (several), First 30, Mat 10.10, Dehler 36, Mistral 9.50, Malango 8.88, Sormiou 29 (several), RM 10.60, Bongo 9.60, First 40.7, Azzure 40, Fabulo 36
> 
> Only one SF 3600 and none JPK 10.80. Maybe they will appear later. Anyway, lots of interesting boats
> 
> http://www.transquadra.com/documentations/AVIS DE COURSE TQS 2014 2015 mai 2012.1.pdf
> 
> Transquadra 2014-2015 | Transat solitaire et double r?serv?e aux amateurs.


There is one SF3600 and not a single 10.80 built up to now: How could they register without (really) knowing wether they will have a boat or not?

I did not know the Opium is rated so high...


----------



## robelz

Neo Yachts postet videos of the Neo400 sailing but unfortunately I can only find them on Facebook. I really love the Neo!


----------



## PCP

*Neo 400*

Me too. Did not know that this Carbon beauty was already on the water:




















https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=279892555497427&set=vb.136903939796290&type=2&theater

The boat is going to be actively raced this year and we will be able to see how good it is, but being a Cecarelli design I have few doubts it will be very fast.


----------



## PCP

*Jörg Riechers finally on Open60 (IMOCA).*

After his success on the Mini class and 40class the German sailor reached finally the top solo sailing class and Mare is also an Open60, unfortunately not a new one, a 2th generation one that it will be a 3th generation when the next Vendee starts (and that will limit his performance).

The boat is the old 2008 Foncia (Vendee Globe winner) that then changed the name for Mapfre ( Iker Martinez and Xabi Fernandez raced it in the last Barcelona World Race) and recently, on the last races was known as Maître Coq sailed by Jeremie Beyou.

He will race with Sébastien Audigane the 2014-5 Barcelona World Race and will do the next vendee globe.

A movie with the "new" boat:

http://tv.yacht.de/video/%26quot%3B...sche-Open-60/9bf447a767a7b6c0c21c5fb1f4470d51


----------



## PCP

*Size and speed*



robelz said:


> There is one SF3600 and not a single 10.80 built up to now: How could they register without (really) knowing wether they will have a boat or not?
> 
> I did not know the Opium is rated so high...


Yes, they will have a boat and the race will only start in 200 days. I believe that a conditional entry can be made (since they don't now yet the TCC rating of the boat).

From some time now that I wanted to make a post about ratings and boat speed. The images of small boats like the JPK 10.10, Pogo 30 or SF 3200 planning fast downwind give the impression that those boats are faster than bigger performance boats, heavier boats that don't plane so easily and even if that can be true under a very small set of conditions is not true in what regards the overall picture and sail conditions.

Sure, they can have an advantage on a transat with strong trade winds because that's where some of those conditions are more frequent but on a regatta course or in coastal or offshore races with mixed winds the difference in speed is true regarding their rating.

We have seen that the boats I have mentioned on a previous post and that race the transquadra have a IRC TCC rating between 0.949 and 1,051 being the ones with higher rating the new SF 3600 and the new JPK 10.80. The Pogo 10.50 and the Opium 39 would be inside the old max TCC allowed of 1.074 but are now out.

Just to give an idea how size matters I will post some TCC-IRC of several fast 40ft performance cruisers and of some well known racers the size of the SF 3600, the Figaro II, and class 40 just to put things in perspective. Several numbers means that I have found different values regarding different boats.

X40: 1.069... Elan 410: 1.067/1.064/1071.... Grand Soleil 40: 1.063.....J122: 1091/1086/1.084.....XP 38: 1.081/1.086...

Comet 41s: 1.084...... First 40 :1088/1.085/1084.... A40 - 1091/1087/1086..... X41: 1.097.... Ker 39: 1.123/1.136/1.235/1.115...

.MAT12: 1.132 ....Mills 39: 1.100....Pogo 12.50: 1.176 ...King 40 1.120/1.194 ....MC33 patton 1.053...

Class 40: 1.176/1.188/ 1280..... Figaro II: 1.085/1.094/1.080/1.081

Of course, one thing is the rating other the ability of a boat to be sailed to it and in what regards boats like a class 40 or a Pogo 12.50 they will only be able to do it in a race mostly downwind (what explains the normally bad results of these fast boats in IRC racing where mixed conditions are the norm).

Regarding performance cruising it makes sense to have a bigger boat that allows an overall better speed and more interior space, regarding racing and specially in what regards short handed racing or solo it makes sense a smaller boat because you need a crew to exploit a bigger one, with the exception of boats like the Pogo or Opium that can be sailed with a small crew or solo.

Regarding compensated racing with a crew that is a completely different ball game and here size does not count and it makes sense to have a smaller less expensive boat that needs less crew and can have results as good as a bigger one and win races. That's where the A31, A35 and JPK 10.10 are winners, double winners since they are also good boats for solo or short crew sailing as their results on the transaquadra and on the last Fastnet show.


----------



## olianta

Hi all,

Have not posted for long time, however have been following the thread. Browsing the web I found out the Infiniti yacht brand (thought it was brand bane only for fast luxurious cars). Though not cars, they have patented the DSS (Dynamic Stability System) representing use of additional foils. They seem to be interesting though on the hi-end.

I thought Paulo and all others would find such boats intriguing. I did not find, however, their basic parameters although they seem to be very light and able to carry a lot of sail (like the multihulls).

Rumen


----------



## robelz

*Re: Jörg Riechers finally on Open60 (IMOCA).*



PCP said:


> After his success on the Mini class and 40class the German sailor reached finally the top solo sailing class and Mare is also an Open60, unfortunately not a new one, a 2th generation one that it will be a 3th generation when the next Vendee starts (and that will limit his performance).
> 
> The boat is the old 2008 Foncia (Vendee Globe winner) that then changed the name for Mapfre ( Iker Martinez and Xabi Fernandez raced it in the last Barcelona World Race) and recently, on the last races was known as Maître Coq sailed by Jeremie Beyou.
> 
> He will race with Sébastien Audigane the 2014-5 Barcelona World Race and will do the next vendee globe.
> 
> A movie with the "new" boat:
> 
> "Mare", der erste deutsche Open 60 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


I'd rather like to see Boris Hermann instead of Jörg Riechers in an Open60...

The video seems to be pretty old. The boat is modified yet...


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## PCP

*Hugh welbourn and DSS*



olianta said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Have not posted for long time, however have been following the thread. Browsing the web I found out the Infiniti yacht brand (thought it was brand bane only for fast luxurious cars). Though not cars, they have patented the DSS (Dynamic Stability System) representing use of additional foils. They seem to be interesting though on the hi-end.
> 
> I thought Paulo and all others would find such boats intriguing. I did not find, however, their basic parameters although they seem to be very light and able to carry a lot of sail (like the multihulls).
> 
> Rumen


Hi Rumen, Glad to know that you still follow this thread

Yes it it was posted long ago but it is a nice one:






The creator of DSS, Hugh welbourn is associated with Infiniti yachts, that are designed also by him. I hope that after the victory of the Wild Oats and the validity of the DSS system proved in racing, we will see finally that 100ft having an order that allow it to see the light of the day.

Even out of DSS system Hugh welbourn had proved himself as designer on the racing field with the design of the DK 46 (2002), a great performance cruiser with a long list of victories. The boat is also sometime given as a Mills design?? maybe Hugh Welbourn worked for mills at the time?



He also designed the JK 50 that would be the first true cruiser with a DSS system. They start yo build the boat but it was sold before it was finished and I don't think it is on the water yet. A very nice cruiser though.









Regards

Paulo


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## capt vimes

true - the JK looks really nice...
i like the full height doors (its no longer a companionway, isn't it) into the saloon...

on another note from their website:
*"NEWS FLASH - Bare hull and deck
fully faired with Engine and machinery 
installed AVAILABLE NOW 
email [email protected] for more info"*
JKyachts builders of the JK50DSS - JK yachts
are they really selling a bare hull to anyone for finishing the boat in his backyard or some other place?


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## PCP

Look at the end of the page: Lots of photos.

JK Yachts JK 50 Unfinished Project em Saône-et-Loire | Veleiros usados 77092

I believe the money finished, they did not have an order or had one but someone had given up and they had to sell the boat unfinished.

I believe it is already sold since the add is deactivated.


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## PCP

*Fantastic story: mini racers are very strong boats!!!*

I have posted recently a video of a mini boat being salvaged after being thrown to a beach, well, I have another rescue story, one even more unbelievable, regarding this Pogo and Federico Fornaro:



He was doing the last Transat, everything went fine till only 300NM from the finish where he broke both rudders and have to be rescued leaving the boat. Later he tried to find the boat on the islands.... Here is his incredible story, translated from Italian:



*Federico Fornaro , an Italian skipper (from Roma) saw his dream to finish the last mini transat end at only 300 miles from Guadeloupe.

The failure of both rudders had forced him to abandon his Mini racer, Jolie Rouge, to be rescued by the Imaginaire, one of the six support boats that followed the race.

For a sailor, losing his boat, it's like losing a loved one . Federico once arrived on land forget the disappointment for not having made it and started ...the search of his beloved 6.50 racer.

This is the story:

... After 30 days at sea , a few miles from the finish, with damages on the rudders the Roman navigator is on trouble.... ""I felt the tiller blocked, the steel support broke and the left rudder was slamming against the transom risking to open a breach in the hull".

Frederick disassemble the damaged blade and continues to navigate with a rudder alone, hoping not to over stress it. " Vain hope: the blade of the right rudder cannot stand alone and on the night the steel support broke in a way that could not be repaired. The boat was uncontrollable....I can not fight anymore ... help arrives and... I've abandoned my girlfriend , I've sacrificed it so I can save myself ... I still watch the waves roll Jolie and it breaks my heart.

...But his boat is his traveling companion. For him it has a soul that is invisible to the eyes of others and abandoning it in the middle of the sea is like leaving a friend drown in the waves.

...
The eyes of Frederick , on arrival in Guadeloupe, express a tired deep sadness but on the middle of that anguish , you can see a shimmer , a little hope of finding Jolie Rouge and save her from the cruel fate of finding eternal rest in the bottom of the ocean or in the clutches of sharp rocks.

... "I left the satellite locator working and it has continued to emit a GPS signal , and so every day I received the coordinates of the drifting boat" . Thus began a treasure hunt : "The boat pushed by winds of South- East advancing at the speed of 1K with a route that took over the West Indies. I went to the island of Saint Martin that lying to the North seemed to be the best starting point to begin a search . "

Madness ? Tenacity ? Romance ? Maybe a little of all drove Frederick. "The wind increased to 30 knots forming a beautiful sea. I am struggling to find a boat available to leave for what would be a great amount of upwind sailing.

Then I remember Manu, a Brittany sailor who sails the Atlantic avoiding as much as possible land. He offers me help and is available to sail away. ... two great sailors in search of adventures, begin the search for the small sailboat . " It is now a race against time, the boat could either be intercepted by some local fisherman or worse, crashing on a reef in Barbuda."

After a night of navigation , at dawn, the first good news: " Near the north-east coast of the island we see a tree without sails that appear and disappear on the waves that break on the reefs: Jolie Rouge seems to have stopped just before the breakers. "

But it's too dangerous to approach Manu's boat , we need to find fishermen for helping with the rescue. " I went ashore and found a village with a few low houses, a small bar and an immigration office where we are forced to fill a lot of forms, piles of paper and stamps. ....

" A small group of local fishermen agrees to take us out with their motor boat , but not before putting gasoline, which means losing more hours to go to fill the tanks on the other side of the island ." ..." we saw first the inclined mast and then the boat lying on its side on the reef. As if that were not bad enough , other men on a small boat were looting the boat. Between shouts and curses I jumped to my boat and they, in minority give up quickly , but not before stilling the generator the, GPS, various equipment .

The boat had small fractures, but it has a hard "skin" and we manage to tow it to Saint Martin were it was put on the hard. It is saved!!!

Now I can go back to Rome, glad to be able to change the ending of this story. But is this really an end? *

L?incredibile storia di Federico Fornaro e del suo Jolie Rouge, ritrovato dopo due settimane! | Giornale della Vela - notizie di vela - regate - crociera


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## PCP

*Defline and Aventura cats*



PCP said:


> Indigo yachts is one of the small French shipyards that makes very interesting boats at a fair price. We have talked already about the Kerkena 6.1 and 7.6, small sportive coastal cruising monohulls, but Indigo yacht was already well known before for their interesting sportive cruising coastal catamarans.
> 
> ... now they propose the Aventura 43, an Offshore cat designed by Defline one of the most talented young French NAs.
> 
> The boat is not only very interesting, offering good sailing performances with a great interior space as it is also proposed at a good price for a non mass produced customized cat: 295 000€
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> upwind sail: 99.3 m2
> Spi Asy : 117.2 m2
> Water : 600 L
> Fuel : 561 L
> 
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Well, the boat is on the water.





The movies are bad and the wind does not help:






What happened to the keels?

I don't like the interior design even if the boat seems to have lots of space and a good interior:






Aventura Catamarans : Constructions Composites & Chantier Naval


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## PCP

*Mad sailing*

The Australians are great sailors but if we took this video as an example, also mad sailors. Who would think of racing on these conditions? Olé!!!!


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## PCP

*Directly from the Mini to the VOR.*

Justine Mettraux (27) joins the girls on the VOR SCA.

The ones that followed with us the last mini Transat know well Justine and her big talent. She finished 2th on the series, but most of all, very close to the overall leaders and well ahead of most protos. A quite incredible race that seem to have not staid unnoticed.

These ladies under the leadership of Samantha (Sam Davies) risk to be quite a problem for men's teams

They have been training hard on their pink boat:


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## capt vimes

*Re: Mad sailing*



PCP said:


> The Australians are great sailors but if we took this video as an example, also mad sailors. Who would think of racing on these conditions? Olé!!!!


Granted! 
have you ever seen the aussies or kiwis compete in their 12ft skiffs?
those little boats are so massively overcanvased, they are rather "flown" than actually "sailed"... 
i know that there are better videos out there but couldn't find one in a hurry:





damn it - i cannot make that iframe work...


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## PCP

*New Flagship for Dehler: Dehler 46*

a very sleek Judel / Vrolijk design:





Since Dehler passed to be controlled by Hanse, and after some design and quality issues (interior) that seem to have resolved on the 38, only good things have come from Dehler, including the price of the boats. This one is announced for 261 000 euros including German VAT and that seems amazing.

The boat looks good and the basic dimensions too:

Design............... Judel / Vrolijk & Co
Hull length......... 13,95 m
Total length....... 14.40 m
Waterline length.. 12,90 m
Beam .................4.35 m
Weight.............. 10.7 t
Ballast / ratio...... 3.5 t/33%
Draft................. 1.85/2.25/2.70 m
Engine............... 39 kW/53 hp


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Mad sailing*



PCP said:


> The Australians are great sailors but if we took this video as an example, also mad sailors. Who would think of racing on these conditions? Olé!!!!


Notice how, in typical Australian fashion, the results at the end of the video list the crews with the men's names first. Does this mean the men are the skippers in each case? Perhaps. But I doubt it.

On a less serious note, racing in these kinds of conditions is what makes these among the best sailors in the world. It is an ISAF-level national event, after all, and these are Olympic class boats. Even though the wind is definitely up, the sea conditions are pretty manageable, with just the short chop and no big waves or confused seas.

I have often heard it said that European sailors are much more likely to go out in marginal conditions - i.e. big breeze - than their American counterparts. From my own experience I don't think this is necessarily the case, but that was mostly on San Francisco Bay, where if you don't like big breeze you wouldn't be able to sail very often. 

But definitely the Aussies and Kiwis are not intimidated by big breeze.


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Directly from the Mini to the VOR.*



PCP said:


> Justine Mettraux (27) joins the girls on the VOR SCA.
> 
> The ones that followed with us the last mini Transat know well Justine and her big talent. She finished 2th on the series, but most of all, very close to the overall leaders and well ahead of most protos. A quite incredible race that seem to have not staid unnoticed.
> 
> These ladies under the leadership of Samantha (Sam Davies) risk to be quite a problem for men's teams
> 
> They have been training hard on their pink boat:


Really thrilled to hear that Justine is getting time on the VOR 65. Just what she needs in the lead up to the TeamWork IMOCA campaign, in which I hope she plays a major role (with Bertrand Delesne, of course). 

It seems to me that even if the SCA team never made it to the starting line, the sponsorship is already a very big marketing benefit for the SCA corporation. Just watching these women pushing hard on the VOR 65 in big breeze is inspirational and very cool. Anyone who has ever sailed on a big boat in strong winds knows how physically and mentally demanding it is. And here we have these terrific women sailors really working it at the highest level of the sport.

Exactly the sort of thing that parents would want their own daughters to aspire to, and which (hopefully) would give their sons more respect for their sisters and girls/women in general.

And anytime some idiot starts trashing women on race boats, we can be 100% certain he is a fool who knows nothing.


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## MrPelicano

*Re: New Flagship for Dehler: Dehler 46*



PCP said:


> a very sleek Judel / Vrolijk design:
> 
> Since Dehler passed to be controlled by Hanse, and after some design and quality issues (interior) that seem to have resolved on the 38, only good things have come from Dehler, including the price of the boats. This one is announced for 261 000 euros including German VAT and that seems amazing.


Gorgeous boat. After eliminating Germany VAT (19%) you're probably looking at about $300K / €221K FOB in the United States, with sails, electronics, options and import duty. That's simply astounding for a 46 foot boat of this quality. For comparison purposes, this is probably less than half of what the NYYC Swan 42 cost new, and still less than you can get one on the used market. No question which boat I'd prefer to own.


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## PCP

*Ker 46 Patrice on the 2013 Rolex Sydney-Hobart.*

The video is great but long skip the middle part (boring). Skip from min 1.10 to 3.50. Don't miss the Dolphins racing with the boat.


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## Mr W

*Multihulls...*

Hi guys!

Did some catching up on this thread, happy to see you´re still going strong with the thread Paulo!! And I saw that you made some posts about multihulls, thought I might chime in

The Whisper 29 is (I think) also called Aeromomentum 29 or AM29 or Chang Mei 29 or JE29 or something like that and is probably 10 year old or so design. It´s a bit messy, I think it was designed by a semi-known na to be built in asia under the name Chang Mei 29. But then the builder used low quality materials which resulted in low quality boats. The na prohibited the builder to keep building but they kept on building it anyway:hammer. At least this is what I´ve heard. I´m not sure where the Whisper is built and by who, hopefully not the asian builder... Anyway, looks to have rather low finish and the design is not very good IMHO. 

I did some research of Aventura cats and especially the Aventura 33 a couple of years ago. Interesting boats if you ask me, although I read a review of the 33 and it was apparently not very fast. At least it looks fast! 

And to save the best for last! The KISS Multihull T29 trimaran! Designed by Stefan Törnblom (who can be seen sitting in the cockpit on one of the pictures sippin' on a beer!). My first boat, the Seaon 96, was also designed by Stefan. I think this is his follow-up design. The Seaon was definitely a very fast boat and this is probably even fast, at least in light winds. Very spartan interior and not very cozy, but hey, this boat is made for sailing . I did have some issues with the Seaon though that made me question the NA a bit. Maybe this one holds up better  What I do think is really cool is the soft wing sail, I want that on my boat! I thought about it earlier, had some email conversation with Omer Wing Sail inventor, but dropped the idea. Maybe not too late though, my boat isn´t finished yet...

Cheers!

//Mr W


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## PCP

*Tony Grainger new babies.*

Talking about trimarans, the name of Graiger is not well known in Europe. Its designs serve mostly Oceania sailors and are well known there but his new designs seem so hot and so out of the shelf that I risk to say that soon he will be known on the other side of the world too. Just have a look:

Rocket 25:





Rocket 42



Rocket 52





Raw 30:










http://www.rocketfactorytrimarans.com/


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## Mr W

*Re: Tony Grainger new babies.*



PCP said:


> Talking about trimarans, the name of Graiger is not well known in Europe. Its designs serve mostly Oceania sailors and are well known there but his new designs seem so hot and so out of the shelf that I risk to say that soon he will be known on the other side of the world too.


Grainger designs look really nice, it's a shame there are not many of them around in my neighborhood! We do have some Seacarts though, they're also nice for racing. I really wouldn't mind a second boat for racing and fun. My Dragonfly will be used almost exclusively for family cruising. My brother races his Arcona 340 quite a bit, but I know that he has caught the multihull fever a little too. We have toyed with the idea of getting a small trimaran, probably a Corsair Sprint or Dash, to race just the two of us. Not this year though! I'll go to Denmark in May to bring my boat home and I want to spend at least one summer with the boat before deciding on yet another one But until then, a little daydreaming is allowed

//Mr W


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## PCP

*Cammas and Ben Ainslie on 2014 Extreme series.*

Probably the best series ever with top skippers from everywhere. Huge talent reunited on this year's edition with a difficult and fast boat to sail. It can only result in great sailing and big spectacle.


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## PCP

*Stamm's Open 60 found afloat.*

Damn, they don't exaggerate when they say these boats are unsinkable. Not even broken in half they go down.

Stamm's boat was found afloat offshore Isle Vierge, near the French coast. Bernard Stamm is on route for recovering his boat that should be towed to Aber Wrac.





Marquage épave Cheminées Poujoulat _por OuestFranceFR_

I guess we are going to see Cheminées Poujoulat racing again. I hope this time they make a proper and full repair of the boat and take the opportunity to make it more competitive.


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## bobperry

"Unthinkable"?


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> "Unthinkable"?


 well, the sound is almost the same Thanks

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Looking at the design I thought it almost made sense Paulo. Very interesting designs.


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## PCP

*Strange boat*

Not properly a sailboat, but quite an interesting one:


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## PCP

*Bernard Stamm's Cheminées Poujoulat successfully towed to port.*

The boat is already at Aber Wrac'h.

Very impressive photos:

Photo gallery: Recovery of Bernard Stamm?s Cheminées Poujoulat | VSail.info


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## Mr W

*Dragonfly 25*

While I´m at it I might as well show the new, concept stage Dragonfly 25! 

http://www.dragonfly.dk/media/67305/final-25-030114_500x275.jpg

Mr W

Edit: How do I post the pic? Long time ago...


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## PCP

*Re: Dragonfly 25*



Mr W said:


> While I´m at it I might as well show the new, concept stage Dragonfly 25!
> 
> http://www.dragonfly.dk/media/67305/final-25-030114_500x275.jpg
> 
> Mr W
> 
> Edit: How do I post the pic? Long time ago...


Here it is:

It looks more modern. Dragonfly are great boats but in what regards the outside design they could look more sharp and this ones looks better.

For posting pics the better is to have them posted on a free photo site (photobucket for instance) and then post the link.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Cat movies:*

Still on multihull, some sailors having big fun in small cats:





Sirena 20 Years Video Contest - Funny Saling... _por Riders-Match_





Sirena 20 Years Video Contest - SL 16... _por Riders-Match_


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## Faster

*Re: Bernard Stamm's Cheminées Poujoulat successfully towed to port.*



PCP said:


> The boat is already at Aber Wrac'h.
> 
> Very impressive photos:
> 
> Photo gallery: Recovery of Bernard Stamm?s Cheminées Poujoulat | VSail.info


Wow.. pretty obviously 'tore apart'.. hope the autopsy can actually come up with the real cause(s)...


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## PCP

*Loick Peiron is learning new tricks.*

We have talk here several times about Cammas, that by the way is going to be at the wheel of the French team on the next AC, but talked less about another French sail legend, Loick Peiron.

Loick is older, I mean he is really old for a top racer (55). He started is sailing carrier by winning the 1979 mini transat and his accomplishments are too long to post here but I guess all know he is the holder of the absolute sail circumnavigation record and besides that maybe its bigger accomplishment is to have won for six times the Trophée Clairefontaine.

I bet many don't know what is that and why it is important, well it is a French thing, kind of the race of the Champions regarding sail. They invite world champions from all sail categories and the best to win.

Peyron is by far the record holder of that race that he won 8 times, 5 of them in a row. The guy that stopped that row was a certain Franck Cammas that have won for 3 times. There are also a Mr Desjoyeux that have won for 4 times&#8230;.and the last year's winner was a certain Gabart.

But Peyron is learning to sail again and stayed near the tail on the last world championship he had entered .....and that just puts him higher on my consideration because the championship was with this "things" that he decided to learn how to fly with 54 years of age. Big balls











Of course, even near the tail of a world championship he was far from ridiculous and just racing there says how good he is already with the "Moth". Maybe next year he would fight for the top places, after all he is just the new kid on the block and he is learning.

What a Character, have a look at this interview:


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## PCP

*Stamm towing his boat*






They have talked about the boat breaking in half but for what we can see it seems that it was the bow section that broke.

Stamm dived today under the boat and was surprised to see that the keel and bulb (almost half the weight of the boat) are still there. the boat was violently shaken by the storm and the cabin's top was destroyed. It is incredible how the airtight compartments that make the boat unsinkable could maintain the boat afloat, considering that it is broken in two parts, with a broken cabin top and supporting almost 4 tons of ballast.


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## capt vimes

*Re: Bernard Stamm's Cheminées Poujoulat successfully towed to port.*



PCP said:


> The boat is already at Aber Wrac'h.
> 
> Very impressive photos:
> 
> Photo gallery: Recovery of Bernard Stamm?s Cheminées Poujoulat | VSail.info


just seen that paulo has already posted it...
dumb me...


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## PCP

*Fast cats, great sailing and some capsizes:*





Sirena 20 Years Video Contest - SL16 Canet - 2013 _por Riders-Match_





Sirena 20 Years Video Contest - Best Of Capsize... _por Riders-Match_


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## PCP

*Robert Louis Stevenson, a cruiser.*

I guess that cruising as a word did not exist at that time and the best he could find as a substitute was travel even if today cruising was more appropriated to what he wanted to describe. The quote is this one:

*"I travel not to go anywhere but to go. I travel for travel's sake. the great affair is to move...To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive.."*

A cruiser I would say. If on those days small offshore cruising sailboats were almost non existent I am sure he would have own one and would have cruised it extensivelly and then he could have said:

*I cruise no to go anywhere but to sail. I cruise for cruising's sake. The great affair is sailing*

In fact he cruised on a sailboat, even if only for some years, a charted one:

"In June 1888 Stevenson chartered the yacht Casco and set sail with his family from San Francisco. ..The sea air and thrill of adventure for a time restored his health, and for nearly three years he wandered the eastern and central Pacific, stopping for extended stays at the Hawaiian Islands, where he spent much time with and became a good friend of King Kalākaua. .. He spent time at the Gilbert Islands, Tahiti, New Zealand and the Samoan Islands. ... Fanny undertook on the Casco from the Hawaiian Islands to the Marquesas and Tuamotu islands. An 1889 voyage, this time with Lloyd, on the trading schooner Equator, visiting Butaritari, Mariki, Apaiang and Abemama in the Gilbert Islands, (also known as the Kingsmills) now Kiribati. .."

I love the man and his personality. Some more quotes that in some way define him:

*There is no foreign land; it is the traveller only that is foreign*

*To be what we are, and to become what we are capable of becoming, is the only end of life.*

*Youth is wholly experimental.*

*To hold the same views at forty as we held at twenty is to have been stupefied for a score of years..*

*"To be overwise is to ossify; and the scruple-monger ends by standing stockstill."*

*Most of our pocket wisdom is conceived for the use of mediocre people, to discourage them from ambitious attempts, and generally console them in their mediocrity. And since mediocre people constitute the bulk of humanity, this is no doubt very properly so.*

*Books are good enough in their own way, but they are a mighty bloodless substitute for life.*

Wikipedia


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## PCP

*and there he goes again,*

trying to cross the Atlantic on the yellow mini-mini made of an exotic material. Bad year to try a stunt like that.

Well, 2th try, let's hope that Harald Sedlacek has more luck now. He plans to do the crossing in 40 days. Good luck to him, but a mad stunt anyway.










You can follow his voyage and now more about the boat material here:

New sailing records - FIPOFIX® (EN)


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## capt vimes

*Re: and there he goes again,*



PCP said:


> trying to cross the Atlantic on the yellow mini-mini made of an exotic material. Bad year to try a stunt like that.
> 
> Well, 2th try, let's hope that Harald Sedlacek has more luck now. He plans to do the crossing in 40 days. Good luck to him, but a mad stunt anyway.
> 
> You can follow his voyage and now more about the boat material here:
> 
> New sailing records - FIPOFIX® (EN)


I got aware of that project some time ago and really tried to figure out, what that fipofix would be... Apart from a rather awkward sounding marketing name, at least to me... 

I also found no information regarding the abandoned first attempt, where norbert sedlacek sailed that dinghy... The only austrian - and ironically the first german speaking (stamm is swiss, but from the french part) - to have ever competed in the vendee globe - he became dead last, had a rather old boat and he is an adventurer - not a racer... 
Harald is his son

Edit:
The first quotes from your stevenson post would fit bernard montessier perfectly as well...


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## MrPelicano

*Re: and there he goes again,*



capt vimes said:


> I got aware of that project some time ago and really tried to figure out, what that fipofix would be... Apart from a rather awkward sounding marketing name, at least to me...
> 
> I also found no information regarding the abandoned first attempt, where norbert sedlacek sailed that dinghy... The only austrian - and ironically the first german speaking (stamm is swiss, but from the french part) - to have ever competed in the vendee globe - he became dead last, had a rather old boat and he is an adventurer - not a racer...
> Harald is his son
> 
> Edit:
> The first quotes from your stevenson post would fit bernard montessier perfectly as well...
> Bernard Moitessier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


He struck an unidentified floating object which damaged his rudder and also experienced some problems with his charging system (indeed, since he is using a hydro charger it may have been damaged when he struck the submerged object).

"FipoFix" is the composite technology used in the construction of the boat, hence the odd sponsor name. It involves the use of volcanic rock material, and Paulo has covered it - and a related technology - in an earlier post.

Volcanic Fiber - FIPOFIX® (EN)

I very much admire this effort and, if he does make it to New York City, I will be in a good position to go visit the boat, as I will be taking a new job based in the nearby city of Stamford, Connecticut later this month. Much easier to catch the train down to NYC from there than from where I am currently.

However, I won't let it interrupt my current love affair with the Elan 210, which is now competing for my heart with the Seascape 27 and the Django 7.70.


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## capt vimes

Thank's mr pelicano...
I knew about the volcanic stuff from their homepage but it does not reveal what is in it exactly... Volcanic material goes from pumice to granite and non of this stuff is known for its tensile strength... Carbon is also not known for tensile strength, but it comes in a wide variety of configurations which goes from diamond to graphite and back via fulerenes, nanotubes and meets with diamond again in the form of graphen...
I really would like to know what is in it, because 'rock' is a lot of different elements and molecules all mixed up...


----------



## PCP

*What boat?*



MrPelicano said:


> ....
> However, I won't let it interrupt my current love affair with the Elan 210, which is now competing for my heart with the Seascape 27 and the Django 7.70.


I don't know what is doing the Elan 210 on your dreams but I don't think it would be of much use to you

In fact it is pretty easy: If you want a boat to solo sail and an oceanic racer, as well as a good cruiser, that's easy, it is the Django 7.70 on its racing version (the interior is the same):



Marée Haute - Le Chantier Marée Haute lance le Django Ocean Race - VoilesNews

The Seascape 27 is a fast and fun boat to sail but it is a coastal boat. sure you will have fun racing it but not good results in compensated neither it will be a good boat for crewed race. Now, there is another option, I posted about it but you seemed distracted. This baby:
















This one can be a good option regarding speed, short crew racing, crewed racing and it has also offshore potential. Two of them are going to make the next Transquadra.

Look at these prices:

Sormiou Yachts 29 occasion - Annonces de voiliers en vente

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> Thank's mr pelicano...
> I knew about the volcanic stuff from their homepage but it does not reveal what is in it exactly... Volcanic material goes from pumice to granite and non of this stuff is known for its tensile strength... Carbon is also not known for tensile strength, but it comes in a wide variety of configurations which goes from diamond to graphite and back via fulerenes, nanotubes and meets with diamond again in the form of graphen...
> I really would like to know what is in it, because 'rock' is a lot of different elements and molecules all mixed up...


As Pelicano said, I had already posted about it:



PCP said:


> I don't think you can do an Ocean racer smaller than the Mini6.50 not on account of the boat but on account of seaworthiness and safety. You have some guys doing the Pogo 2 in America and the boat is not expensive for an Ocean racer.
> 
> Regarding the material that's another story. That's a CFS (Carbon Fiber Stone) material and the first I herd about CFS was on the Salona shipyard. In fact they use the material, not with volcanic stone but with granite that seems even strange to me. In fact if you order a Salona (any of them) in IBC specifications (infusion based carbon) the bulkheads are made in CFS, using granite. Take a look at the movie and stop exactly om 1.00 minute and you will see. All bulkheads are made with that material. It is not painted black it is just its color:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the material there, it comes in big panels and its weird, black as the night, very light and very strong.
> 
> I looked at the time on internet searching for the material and I found very little. It says well from Salona since they are using it on top performance boats for years. Maybe because they are a small subdivision of a huge plastics and fibers manufacturer they have access to information and top materials in what regards the plastic/fibers development.
> 
> You should see my face when they asked to me if I wanted granite bulkheads on my boat
> 
> Some more information:
> 
> Towards a new Stone Age
> 
> http://technocarbon.de/presse/SD_CM_02_08_technocarbon.pdf
> 
> PS: that boat can have also an interior made of a lighter material (and more expensive) but it seems to me that it is a normal interior. The mast, boom and wheels are carbon but it has also teak decks so it is not a top racer. Some guy that wanted a fast but comfortable boat.


----------



## PCP

*the Flying Phantom one design*

looks better and better. I hope this is going to be a success as a class. It deserves it and I would love to see some fleet racing images






Flying Phantom One design from Jeremie Eloy/ Wanaii Films on Vimeo.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: What boat?*



PCP said:


> I don't know what is doing the Elan 210 on your dreams but I don't think it would be of much use to you


I can explain...

My infatuation with the Elan 210 is strictly as a short-term solution, since it more and more appears that my offshore sailing goals are being pushed out further than I would like.

For racing / crusing within Long Island Sound and the northeast U.S. coast, the Elan 210 would be quite suitable, particularly at the quoted price point. The fact that it can be easily trailered also opens the option of Key West and the Caribbean, to some extent, as well as the Sea of Cortez, on the Mexico West Coast. And, with some modest upgrades, the boat might be able to qualify for the Singlehanded Transpac Race, from San Francisco to Kauai, Hawai'i.

The case for the Seascape 27 is the same, albeit more expensive by about 30-40%.

Going back to my long term goals, then we are definitely talking, again, about the Django 7.70 and the Archambault 31, as well as a few others. My wife, of course would prefer to see a Dehler 38 in her future (or now a Dehler 46, thanks to your earlier posting), but haven't figured out how the math would work for those choices. As in so many things in life, it's not the simple acquistion of something but the long term maintenance of it that becomes a challenge. I would not want a boat like the Dehler 46 if I was unable to maintain it in pristine condition. Boats that beautiful deserve no less. 

But thank you for keeping my best interests in mind.


----------



## PCP

*Re: What boat?*



MrPelicano said:


> ..... And, with some modest upgrades, the boat might be able to qualify for the Singlehanded Transpac Race, from San Francisco to Kauai, Hawai'i.


Hummm....you are crazy!



MrPelicano said:


> Going back to my long term goals, then we are definitely talking, again, about the Django 7.70 and the Archambault 31, as well as a few others. My wife, of course would prefer to see a Dehler 38 in her future (or now a Dehler 46, thanks to your earlier posting), but haven't figured out how the math would work for those choices. As in so many things in life, it's not the simple acquistion of something but the long term maintenance of it that becomes a challenge. I would not want a boat like the Dehler 46 if I was unable to maintain it in pristine condition. Boats that beautiful deserve no less.
> 
> But thank you for keeping my best interests in mind.


Talking about your best interests, meaning by that your wife, as a short term proposition that would serve all the purposes you could have one of these. You can find them used at very nice prices and it is a beautiful boat, not ridiculous racing nor cruising:





(photos taken last year on the Jakinthos Island, Greece)

http://www.farrdesign.com/622results.html

First 35 yachts - Boats First 35 used, new and charter boats

or even one of this:

Comar Comet 38 s year 2008

It done great in the last ORCI world championship. Even a better interior and bigger cruising potential.

http://www.comaryachts.it/Card.Aspx?BoatId=8&Modo=P67

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: What boat?*



PCP said:


> Hummm....you are crazy!
> 
> Talking about your best interests, meaning by that your wife, as a short term proposition that would serve all the purposes you could have one of these. You can find them used at very nice prices and it is a beautiful boat, not ridiculous racing nor cruising:
> 
> Farr Yacht Design
> 
> First 35 yachts - Boats First 35 used, new and charter boats
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Alas, there are no used Beneteau First 35's on the market in North America (recent model, that is). And, to tell the truth, I have not seen one on the water locally (Long Island Sound). Not sure if they sold (m)any in the U.S. at all. 

Of course, they haven't sold (m)any First 30's either.

As we have mentioned before, what they are selling is J/70's and, now, J/88's and not a whole lot more than that.

And not sure what you mean by "affordable" since 2010-2013 models of the First 35 are selling for more than $170K.  I'm not saying that's outrageous - not much different than a new J/88, in fact - but definitely more than I want to spend for anything I'm not going to live aboard.

So I think I go back to my other strategy, which is to get a small, TransQuadra-style boat, and use the money I save for airplane tickets for the wife.  I have quite a few friends who will be happy to join me for offshore sailing, even across oceans.


----------



## PCP

*First 35*



MrPelicano said:


> Alas, there are no used Beneteau First 35's on the market in North America (recent model, that is). And, to tell the truth, I have not seen one on the water locally (Long Island Sound). Not sure if they sold (m)any in the U.S. at all.
> 
> Of course, they haven't sold (m)any First 30's either.
> 
> As we have mentioned before, what they are selling is J/70's and, now, J/88's and not a whole lot more than that.
> 
> And not sure what you mean by "affordable" since 2010-2013 models of the First 35 are selling for more than $170K.  I'm not saying that's outrageous - not much different than a new J/88, in fact - but definitely more than I want to spend for anything I'm not going to live aboard.
> 
> So I think I go back to my other strategy, which is to get a small, TransQuadra-style boat, and use the money I save for airplane tickets for the wife.  I have quite a few friends who will be happy to join me for offshore sailing, even across oceans.


A 2010 First 35 costs about 100 000 euros, about the same as a 2008 Comet 38s.

Beneteau First 35, Used of 2010 - 358397






I think the VAT is deductible. Lots of First 35 here for selling. A good boat with that age will need pretty much new sails and nothing else. You can pick the boat here and sail the ARC in the racing division back home. Fun and a good deal since I believe the boat will sell well on the US when you want to sell it. On that one I believe your wife could enjoy cruising.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I mentioned you in my SAILING reviews this month.


----------



## PCP

*Cruising and racing with wing sails*

I have been following the developments regarding this technology regarding cruising boats. In fact it is not a new thing, the French have toyed with it on the 80s in what concerns offshore racing boats but the concept never proved to have reliability and enough efficiency.

It seems to me things are changing fast and the ones that seem to be leading the ball in what concerns practicability, costs and a possible utilization on cruising boats are One sails, the Italian sail company. In fact they believe that in 15 years almost all boats will have some kind of a wing sail.

I have saw their first video (that I will re-post at the bottom) but only recently I saw one with a comparison on the water between two identical boats, one with wing sail the other with conventional high quality sails and the results are conclusive even if the sail is still in development:

Aile souple : la voile du futur ?

The boats are Seascape 18 and we can see that the wing boat is not only faster as it can point 5º better upwind and sail downwind at a bigger angle.

The wing can be reefed and I believe that this type of soft sail wings will not take long to be available, first on racers and after in performance cruisers.

Here a previous movie with that sail on a previous phase of development.






and they are not the only ones working on it:


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> I mentioned you in my SAILING reviews this month.


I hope not to say that I only say BS

Thanks!

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Nope Paulo. I just said that we disagree on Euro styling sometimes.
I had three boats to review:
Bavaria Cruiser 51
Dufour 410
Sun Odyssey 349

I also talk about the regular "critics" I have.

The three boats shared numerous features in common. So I made that the theme of this review group. I'll let you know when it is available online.


----------



## PCP

*The improperly called Euro Style:*

Regarding euro style the disagreement is not only "sometimes" but about existing one

What you call Euro styles I call modern design (on a sense that like modern art is an Universal one). Some of the best designers of what you call "modern style" are American NA firms like Farr or Reichel & Pugh, others are from Oceania like Ker. Like modern art modern boat design is a "functionalist" one and beauty is clearly related with efficiency regarding sailing. What works better will become beautiful with time and is already beautiful to the eyes of the NA.

I am sure you understand but for the ones that don't this does not mean that I find that is the only right form to design a sailboat. Many times the differences in performance are not significant in what regards cruising but a "modern" Na will always go for the more efficient shape or form (because for him that is beauty) while someone that designs "on the tradition" will give more importance to classic or traditional shapes because on his eyes beauty is not only efficiency but also tradition.

Anyway, I like traditional and classic boats or boats that, like yours, that are on "tradition". I just don't think that what you call European style is an appropriated denomination. If you don't like to call them modern, you can it "Universal style"


----------



## bobperry

OK, That makes sense to me. I will stop using "Euro" and I will use "modern". That's fair.
I appreciate the explanation.

You know this means I'm going to have to talk about you again?


----------



## outbound

Problem is it is not "universal". Folks still buy and build Chippendale furniture. It has timeless beauty and is very functional. I've built multiple pieces. They are still in daily use. There are timeless designs be they highboys, Bach, America or a turbo Bentley. There is a comfort provided by the white and wood of a Herreshoff interior or that of Bob's boats or a Morris or Outbound. My parents house was done in Danish modern and cutting edge Euro. My dad collected antique clocks and watches. It was striking to see these pieces displaced in that background. But when we broke their place up I kept the clocks and the furniture went elsewhere. My mom was an art educator and collected some. Same thing the modern art went elsewhere. The good representative art stayed. It's a different view. Not better or worse just different. It has nothing to do with function. Like saying a good rocker is less comfortable then a Morris chair then a Bauhaus then a Stress less. I like the Stress less ( a modern design) wife likes a shaker rocker. 
In short Bob's boats are not slow but they are beautiful.


----------



## PCP

*"Traditional" approach versus "Modern" approach.*



bobperry said:


> OK, That makes sense to me. I will stop using "Euro" and I will use "modern". That's fair.
> I appreciate the explanation.
> 
> You know this means I'm going to have to talk about you again?


 You know the problem relates with the meaning of words, like modern opposed to old when that meaning does not exist regarding art: Modern art does not mean that it is more "modern" than other forms of art namely for instance hiper realism that is pretty much opposed to modern art.

Regarding architecture "modern" is also related with an abstract form of expression, by opposed to some other forms of expression, for instance Pos-modernism, that in fact is not modern since it uses traditional references. Both are contemporary styles.

Regarding NA and since sailboats are imminently functional objects an approach towards functionalism is fundamental. That approach is carried to the limits in what regards "modern" boats while on other contemporary boats, on those that use as reference traditional and classical forms, the functionalist approach is used in what regards the essential "working" parts of a boat but they don't go to the limit in what regards less important (in what regards performance) parts, like cabin design, bow and transom design were traditional shapes can make the difference in what regards the perception of beauty without a significant loss in performance (in what regards cruising).

The key word is the perception of beauty that for a "modern" NA is directed linked to a fundamentalist approach regarding performance (fast is beautiful) while for a "traditional" Na beauty does not exist out of shapes and forms related with tradition.

Pascal Conq, from Finot-Conq made an essay where he developed that concept of beauty ("modern") related with absolute performance. According to this way of viewing things race boats will represent beauty in itself and cruising boats to be beautiful have to follow race boats lines, at least in what is possible, since they have other requirements in what concerns interior height and interior light.

take for instance the design of the new Dehler 46: it is a performance cruiser but it looks like a very sharp racer and therefore is beautiful according to a "modern" perspective of beauty. Of course I am quite sure that the "beauty" of its lines will have no interference in the cruising quality of the interior space that will be luminous and luxurious:



Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Cape 2 Rio*

Everything remains the same on that race...quite boring. The Maserati is arriving, hugely ahead of any other boat, the TP52 disguised (in a cruiser) is beating the old Open 60 and the small M34 continues to piss the bigger class40 and making a great race.

The only interesting news come regarding that fatal accident with the Bavaria 55 that resulted not only on one dead but several injured. In fact what was strange since the begining was that details of that accident never come out and that is very odd. The only thing that was said was that the boat had lost the mast.

Now details come from Daniel Kohl, head of marketing from the German shipyard. On a note to the main sail magazines it was communicated that the boat was rolled by a gigantic wave and that the mast broke in consequence of that. The crew member that died disappeared in the water and was not seen again.

This is is all very suspicious. Why did not the skipper and crew report the nature of the accident? Why it is Bavaria head of Marketing that reports the circumstances of the accident?

The Black out is total, neither on their club (Angola) they told anything and the club has been posting regularly the reports of the other Angolan team ( on another Bavaria). Both teams have the same sponsor.


----------



## capt vimes

paulo - i completely agree with you...
used to do motorcycle races (600 cc) and there it is the same - what is fast, is beautiful! 
even if it means such a radical design like the new Ker open 40:









on another note - interesting read here: http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/The_relationship_between_displacement_power_and_pe


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Cape 2 Rio*



PCP said:


> Everything remains the same on that race...quite boring. The Maserati is arriving, hugely ahead of any other boat, the TP52 disguised (in a cruiser) is beating the old Open 60 and the small M34 continues to piss the bigger class40 and making a great race.
> 
> The only interesting news come regarding that fatal accident with the Bavaria 55 that resulted not only on one dead but several injured. In fact what was strange since the begining was that details of that accident never come out and that is very odd. The only thing that was said was that the boat had lost the mast.
> 
> Now details come from Daniel Kohl, head of marketing from the German shipyard. On a note to the main sail magazines it was communicated that the boat was rolled by a gigantic wave and that the mast broke in consequence of that. The crew member that died disappeared in the water and was not seen again.
> 
> This is is all very suspicious. Why did not the skipper and crew report the nature of the accident? Why it is Bavaria head of Marketing that reports the circumstances of the accident?
> 
> The Black out is total, neither on their club (Angola) they told anything and the club has been posting regularly the reports of the other Angolan team ( on another Bavaria). Both teams have the same sponsor.


I will hazard a guess that the lack of clear reporting is probably linked to legal liability and insurance considerations. Until everyone involved - particularly the skipper - has had an opportunity to "lawyer up" (as we say in the United States, the global leader in personal injury litigation), it is safer to say little or nothing at all.

Once there is a formal inquiry, I expect we will finally get something approaching the "truth" of the matter. We should not be surprised that Bavaria is speaking up, given their own history of litigation issues involving alleged keel failures. I'm sure they want to make it clear that the accident had nothing to do with the boat design or construction, to the extent they are able to do so.


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> paulo - i completely agree with you...
> used to do motorcycle races (600 cc) and there it is the same - what is fast, is beautiful!
> ....
> on another note - interesting read here: The relationship between displacement, power and performance in Open 60 design : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects


It is not a question of agreeing, it is an analyses of what happens in what regards sailor' perception regarding what they find beautiful (and why) and I do understand and find beauty in both concepts, the one I called modern and the other I called traditional: I have posted on this thread many designs of Gerard Dijkstra one of the contemporary masters in what regards what I call "traditional" design and I do love his designs as I do love some of Bob Perry designs.

Regarding that Owen and Clark link it is an interesting one but it is more about power versus speed and show that not always the more powerful is the faster at least in what regards solo sailing. No news there, any racer even from the motorsport world knows that: power is just a part of the equation, an important one for sure but not the only one.

The "modern" approach in what regards the search for beauty trough performance shapes is today more widespread in yacht design than the use of traditional shapes and you are right into pointing out that is also the Owen and Clark approach. we can see that not only on their designs but also on this quotes that we find on their site:

*"Those who fall in love with practice yet without science are like a sailor who steers a ship without helm or compass, and who never can be certain whither he is going"

Leonardo da Vinci

*
*For all Owen Clarke Design projects, the common denominator is performance, regardless of whether the yacht is a cruising or racing design.

Owen and Clark*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: "Traditional" approach versus "Modern" approach.*



PCP said:


> You know the problem relates with the meaning of words, like modern opposed to old when that meaning does not exist regarding art: Modern art does not mean that it is more "modern" than other forms of art namely for instance hiper realism that is pretty much opposed to modern art.
> 
> Regarding architecture "modern" is also related with an abstract form of expression, by opposed to some other forms of expression, for instance Pos-modernism, that in fact is not modern since it uses traditional references. Both are contemporary styles.
> 
> Regarding NA and since sailboats are imminently functional objects an approach towards functionalism is fundamental. That approach is carried to the limits in what regards "modern" boats while on other contemporary boats, on those that use as reference traditional and classical forms, the functionalist approach is used in what regards the essential "working" parts of a boat but they don't go to the limit in what regards less important (in what regards performance) parts, like cabin design, bow and transom design were traditional shapes can make the difference in what regards the perception of beauty without a significant loss in performance (in what regards cruising).
> 
> The key word is the perception of beauty that for a "modern" NA is directed linked to a fundamentalist approach regarding performance (fast is beautiful) while for a "traditional" Na beauty does not exist out of shapes and forms related with tradition.
> 
> Pascal Conq, from Finot-Conq made an essay where he developed that concept of beauty ("modern") related with absolute performance. According to this way of viewing things race boats will represent beauty in itself and cruising boats to be beautiful have to follow race boats lines, at least in what is possible, since they have other requirements in what concerns interior height and interior light.
> 
> take for instance the design of the new Dehler 46: it is a performance cruiser but it looks like a very sharp racer and therefore is beautiful according to a "modern" perspective of beauty. Of course I am quite sure that the "beauty" of its lines will have no interference in the cruising quality of the interior space that will be luminous and luxurious:
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


This is a truly beautiful (and modern) boat. JV has been doing incredible work for Dehler lately and the Dehler 46 rivals (for me) the perfect blend of performance and cruisability that we have recently seen in the Jason Ker-designed Sydney GTS43. I expect the Dehler will have more cruising comforts than the more race-oriented Sydney, but place them side by side and you would have the poster boats for modern functional performance cruising design. 



















These are boats that turn heads when you enter the harbor or marina. 

NOTE: Let me quickly add that I'm also a fan of traditional or "classic" designs. For example, I really love the look of the early Cheoy Lee designs of the 1960s and very early 1970's, particularly the Clipper 33.










I believe a Mr. Bob Perry contributed 3 designs to Cheoy Lee in the 1980's, if memory serves (35, 41, 44). Like this 44' beauty:


----------



## PCP

*Functionalism and modern art in what regards Naval Architecture:*



outbound said:


> Problem is it is not "universal". Folks still buy and build Chippendale furniture. It has timeless beauty and is very functional....Same thing the modern art went elsewhere. ...It has nothing to do with function. ..
> ..


I guess you did not understood what I meant by Universal. Modern art is rooted in functionalist:

*" Functionalism, in architecture, is the principle that architects should design a building based on the purpose of that building....Augustus Welby Pugin wrote that "there should be no features about a building which are not necessary for convenience, construction, or propriety" and "all ornament should consist of enrichment of the essential construction of the building"...The roots of modern architecture lie in the work of the Franco-Swiss architect Le Corbusier and the German architect Mies van der Rohe. Both were functionalists..."*

Wikipedia

What is said there is not different in what regards aesthetics in Yacht design, you have just to substitute yacht by building and you will have:

Functionalism that is on the roots of modern yacht design, is the principle that NA should design a sailing yacht based on the purpose of sailing. The design should not be influenced by anything other than necessary for convenience, performance and building. All traditional elements that serve no performance purpose should be eliminated and the beauty of the boat will result exclusively from the search of a better sail performance.

This approach will result in an Universal approach in the sense that what makes a boat sail better and be faster in Australia is not different than what makes a boat faster in Europe or US. This approach is strongly based on a scientific research and uses extensively sail racing as means of improving cruising boats, even if slightly. The designs from the American Cabinets of Reischel & Pugh or Farr will not be different from the ones of the Europeans Judel/Vrolijk, Owen and Clark or Finot/Conq neither different than the work of the South American JK, Soto Acebal or the Australian/NZ designers like Greg Elliott, Bakewell-White and Murray Burns & Dovell.

A traditional approach is not an universal one for the simple reason that the shapes and traditions that are used to "ornament" contemporary sailboats vary widely with regional traditions. That is way Bob Perry talks about an American Yacht design while we can talk about Dutch yacht design when we refer to the boats designed by Gerard Dijkstra.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Functionalism and modern art in what regards Naval Architecture:*



PCP said:


> I guess you did not understood what I meant by Universal. Modern art is rooted in functionalist:
> 
> *" Functionalism, in architecture, is the principle that architects should design a building based on the purpose of that building....Augustus Welby Pugin wrote that "there should be no features about a building which are not necessary for convenience, construction, or propriety" and "all ornament should consist of enrichment of the essential construction of the building"...The roots of modern architecture lie in the work of the Franco-Swiss architect Le Corbusier and the German architect Mies van der Rohe. Both were functionalists..."*
> 
> Wikipedia
> 
> What is said there is not different in what regards aesthetics in Yacht design, you have just to substitute yacht by building and you will have:
> 
> Functionalism that is on the roots of modern yacht design, is the principle that NA should design a sailing yacht based on the purpose of sailing. The design should not be influenced by anything other than necessary for convenience, performance and building. All traditional elements that serve no performance purpose should be eliminated and the beauty of the boat will result exclusively from the search of a better sail performance.
> 
> This approach will result in an Universal approach in the sense that what makes a boat sail better and be faster in Australia is not different than what makes a boat faster in Europe or US. This approach is strongly based on a scientific research and uses extensively sail racing as means of improving cruising boats, even if slightly. The designs from the American Cabinets of Reischel & Pugh or Farr will not be different from the ones of the Europeans Judel/Vrolijk, Owen and Clark or Finot/Conq neither different than the work of the South American JK, Soto Acebal or the Australian/NZ designers like Greg Elliott, Bakewell-White and Murray Burns & Dovell.
> 
> A traditional approach is not an universal one for the simple reason that the shapes and traditions that are used to "ornament" contemporary sailboats vary widely with regional traditions. That is way Bob Perry talks about an American Yacht design while we can talk about Dutch yacht design when we refer to the boats designed by Gerard Dijkstra.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Any discussion about "Modern" aesthetics is complicated by the fact that the terms "modern", "modernism" and "modernist" are used somewhat differently depending on the area of practice, be it painting, literature, philosophy, architecture, etc. As Paulo notes, within architectural practice, "modern" or "modernist" is closely associated with functionalism ("Form follows function" - Bauhaus), with an emphasis on science and technology in the pursuit of designs optimized for an object's specified use.

In this respect, modernist design tends to minimize any feature - i.e., "ornamentation" - that doesn't contribute to the optimal functionality of the object.

Having said that, even modernist design must make accommodation for considerations that might not be strictly considered "functional" - i.e., the aesthetic tastes of the customer, which are important to his/her sense of satisfaction with the object being designed.

In such cases, you see examples of what we would consider more traditional designs enhanced by contemporary performance-enhancing qualities like high-aspect rudder blades and strut-bulb keel configurations, or the use of carbon fibre in spars and rigging. These are the types of compromises that are frequently made by naval architects in the design of yachts.

Looking at boats like the Dehler 46 and Sydney GTS43, here we see modernist principles influencing almost every aspect of the design, with a premium placed on sailing performance. But even there, we see compromises - e.g., the closed transom on the Dehler 46 - it definitely serves a cruising/comfort purpose, but is probably less optimal from a performance standpoint than the open transom of the Sydney GTS43.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Functionalism and modern art in what regards Naval Architecture:*



MrPelicano said:


> ......
> In such cases, you see examples of what we would consider more traditional designs enhanced by contemporary performance-enhancing qualities like high-aspect rudder blades and strut-bulb keel configurations, or the use of carbon fibre in spars and rigging. These are the types of compromises that are frequently made by naval architects in the design of yachts.
> ..


Taking a "traditional" approach in designing a cruising boat does not mean that on the parts more related with boat performance it is not followed a functionalist perspective but that on the less critical parts in what regards sailing performance an "ornamental" traditional iconography is used to create beauty.

Beauty in this case does not come only from the perfect fulfillment of sail performance but from a mixed way, were performance is more or less compromised by design elements that are there to maintain a traditional language judged indispensable to create beauty.

If a boat designer takes a traditional approach not only on the needed elements to create and maintain its traditional heritage but uses on the critical performance parts (mast, hull, keel and ruder) out-dated and poor performance solutions then he is just designing a poor sailboat and the design quality will be poor. That boat will not be a contemporary design like many of the "traditional" designs are.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 3*

Talking about beauty, one boat that risks to change concepts in what we call beauty, particularly in what regards that bow that looks like it is going to work as projected, increasing performance with very small drag costs.






Pogo 3 teaser - from Pogostructures on Vimeo.

Posted by Voile and voiliers a very interesting comparison between the three mini racers that they have produced. We can see that one of the things that have changed is the size of the main sail, always smaller regarding stay sails. The Pogo 2 is still produced but since 2009 only in the US.



Pogo 650
From 1994 to 2000 : 124 exemplaires
NA : Pierre Rolland
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 2,97 m
Light Displacement : 1 200 kg
Draft : 1,57 m
Main : 24 m2
Genoa : 18 m2
Spi : 72 m2

Pogo 2
From 2002 to 2009 : 115 exemplaires
NA : Finot-Conq
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 3,00 m
Light displacement : 980 kg
Draft : 1,60 m
Main : 28 m2
Genoa : 18 m2
Spi : 70 m2

Pogo 3
Since 2014
NA : Guillaume Verdier
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 3,00 m
Light Displacement : 930 kg
Draft : 1,60 m
Main sail : 26 m2
Genoa : 20 m2
spi : 70 m2

also an interesting interview with Christian Bouroullec, the boss from the Structures Shipyard (Pogo)

Mini de série - Chantier Structures : le Pogo nouveau est arrivé ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Pogo 3*



PCP said:


> Talking about beauty, one boat that risks to change concepts in what we call beauty, particularly in what regards that bow that looks like it is going to work as projected, increasing performance with very small drag costs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo 3 teaser - from Pogostructures on Vimeo.
> 
> Posted by Voile and voiliers a very interesting comparison between the three mini racers that they have produced. We can see that one of the things that have changed is the size of the main sail, always smaller regarding stay sails. The Pogo 2 is still produced but since 2009 only in the US.
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo 650
> From 1994 to 2000 : 124 exemplaires
> NA : Pierre Rolland
> Hull Length : 6,50 m
> Beam : 2,97 m
> Light Displacement : 1 200 kg
> Draft : 1,57 m
> Main : 24 m2
> Genoa : 18 m2
> Spi : 72 m2
> 
> Pogo 2
> From 2002 to 2009 : 115 exemplaires
> NA : Finot-Conq
> Hull Length : 6,50 m
> Beam : 3,00 m
> Light displacement : 980 kg
> Draft : 1,60 m
> Main : 28 m2
> Genoa : 18 m2
> Spi : 70 m2
> 
> Pogo 3
> Since 2014
> NA : Guillaume Verdier
> Hull Length : 6,50 m
> Beam : 3,00 m
> Light Displacement : 930 kg
> Draft : 1,60 m
> Main sail : 26 m2
> Genoa : 20 m2
> spi : 70 m2
> 
> also an interesting interview with Christian Bouroullec, the boss from the Structures Shipyard (Pogo)
> 
> Mini de série - Chantier Structures : le Pogo nouveau est arrivé ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles


While not quite so apparent in plan view, when you watch the video you see the influence of David Raison's scow design (747) at 0:23-0:25, from the bow view of the hull. That's where the fullness in the forward section becomes most obvious, though you can also see it in the added curve to the hull shape (compared with the Pogo 2, which appears flatter to me), which presumably increases interior volume.

All in all, a very nice compromise by Verdier, incorporating the proven benefits of a fuller entry and interior volume, with the equally important perfomance characteristics of recent Series designs, such as the pronounced chines. I predict this will be a very fast Series boat that will also make many Proto skippers nervous.


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 46 - Azuree 46*

The Dehler 46 and the new Azuree 46 are two of the hottest new performance cruisers that will be around next summer. Let's compare the dimensions:

...........................Dehler 46....................Azuree46

NA.......................Judel / Vrolijk..............Rob Humphreys
Hull Length ...........13,95 m.....................13.99m
LOA.....................14,40 m......................14.04
LWL....................12,40 m.......................12.99m
Beam...................4,31 m........................4.25m
Draft...................2.25/2.75m..................2.2/2.6m
Displacement.........11.2/10,7 t.................10.5T
Ballast / ratio.........3,5t / 33%..................3.98T/38%
Sail Area............... 114.1/117.8m2...........124.5m2
engine................. 39 kW/53 hp................55hp
Price....................261 000 euros..............258 000 euros

Well, as I had noticed when I compared the prices of the Salona 41 and the Dehler 41, they have an inexpensive version, that is alright for cruising, but if you want a boat with better specifications the price goes up rapidly. In fact at the time a top Salona 41 costed the price of a lower range Dehler. We can see it here again.

The 260 000 euros corresponds to the standard version with 11.2T. To be honest I could not figure out if the price of the Azuree included VAT or not (the one of the Dehler does) but the Azuree does not have two versions so that weight regards the 2.6m draft version while to have a Dehler with a similar weight, it will be a much more expensive one.

Besides that for a not much different beam (the Azuree has less 6cm) and not a very different draft (15 cm deeper on the Dehler) the difference in ballast is substantial and that will make the Azuree more powerful than even the "race" version of the Dehler. We can see the reflex of that on the sail area that on the Azuree is 7m2 bigger than in the RC version of the Dehler.

So, I would say that both boats are very interesting but certainly not the Azuree less than the Dehler. Besides all those good numbers the Azuree is also a beautiful boat at a great price:


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Pogo 3*



MrPelicano said:


> While not quite so apparent in plan view, when you watch the video you see the influence of David Raison's scow design (747) at 0:23-0:25, from the bow view of the hull. That's where the fullness in the forward section becomes most obvious, though you can also see it in the added curve to the hull shape (compared with the Pogo 2, which appears flatter to me), which presumably increases interior volume.
> 
> All in all, a very nice compromise by Verdier, incorporating the proven benefits of a fuller entry and interior volume, with the equally important perfomance characteristics of recent Series designs, such as the pronounced chines. I predict this will be a very fast Series boat that will also make many Proto skippers nervous.


The first one to design a bow like this was Juan K in a TP 52 years ago, years before Raison, and more like the Pogo3 than the 747.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Pogo 3*



DiasDePlaya said:


> The first one to design a bow like this was Juan K in a TP 52 years ago, years before Raison, and more like the Pogo3 than the 747.


You mean the Team Origin boat? Don't recall how competitive it was on the circuit, but it looks to me very similar to the conventional TP52 design thinking at that time. I thought you were going to call out JuanK's VOR and IMOCA designs, which show clear evidence of the full bow section similar to what Verdier has done in the Pogo 3.

In which case, I would agree with you up to a point. But nobody took the idea as far as Raison did, and I've read various opinions on why or why not such an extreme approach would or wouldn't work in those classes (moot, of course, for the VOR one-designs, where Juank K didn't get the call). But Cheminée Poujolat has that full bow section look to it, without a doubt. In fact, most of the new generation IMOCA 60's have gone that route, including the VPLP boats that dominated the last VG.


----------



## PCP

*Rounded bows*

There are some considerable differences regarding the jK team Origin TP52 bow and the one from Verdier on the Pogo 3:


----------



## PCP

*Lack of band - Request*

I have some problems with the thread regarding band space, pictures and videos. Please when someone you quote, if possible, take the videos and the images away and post only the text.

Thanks!


----------



## Classic30

*Re: Rounded bows*



PCP said:


> There are some considerable differences regarding the jK team Origin TP52 bow and the one from Verdier on the Pogo 3:


What's the reason behind the fat bow, Paulo?

In extreme form, it kinda reminds me of this:


----------



## PCP

*Re: Rounded bows*



Classic30 said:


> What's the reason behind the fat bow, Paulo?


...
Yes, I have posted before some older Portuguese sailing boats with rounded bows, in fact I have read in an old treaty that the rounded boats were a big improvement

The rounded bow gives more power to the boat (hull form stability) and in big seas, with the boat running adds buoyancy to the bow preventing it to dig the bow on the waves.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Classic30

*Re: Rounded bows*



PCP said:


> ...
> Yes, I have posted before some older Portuguese sailing boats with rounded bows, in fact I have read in an old treaty that the rounded boats were a big improvement
> 
> The rounded bow gives more power to the boat (hull form stability) and in big seas, with the boat running adds buoyancy to the bow preventing it to dig the bow on the waves.


Thanks, Paulo. That makes sense to me. 

It's interesting to me that NA's now are starting to realise - the hard way - that many of the old ways were not always complete rubbish to be tossed in the bin.. even if the designers from centuries ago did not always completely understand why what they had designed worked.

eg. Apparently the replica of ENDEAVOUR (the ship in my post) was a surprise to many that when she was launched it was discovered she didn't sail like a pig!.. She's since circumnavigated the globe at least once and is apparently happiest in big seas.


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Rounded bows*



PCP said:


> ...
> Yes, I have posted before some older Portuguese sailing boats with rounded bows, in fact I have read in an old treaty that the rounded boats were a big improvement
> 
> The rounded bow gives more power to the boat (hull form stability) and in big seas, with the boat running adds buoyancy to the bow preventing it to dig the bow on the waves.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


... And lifts the bow on a reach to plan earlier...
And on a close haul the bow is less 'dipped in' by the broad stern... The waterlines in a heeled situation is less - how to say - offline... But more in line with the course the boat is going...
There are a lot of merrits to a fat bow, but the main reason is lift to plan...


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Rounded bows*



capt vimes said:


> ... And lifts the bow on a reach to plan earlier...
> And on a close haul the bow is less 'dipped in' by the broad stern... The waterlines in a heeled situation is less - how to say - offline... But more in line with the course the boat is going...
> There are a lot of merrits to a fat bow, but the main reason is lift to plan...


Nobody is more linguistically impaired than I am, when it comes to languages other than English. However, I'd like to call attention to a recurring spelling error that some of the posters make quite often in this thread.

When a boat attains sufficient speed and lift to break free from the limits of displacement sailing, the correct term to use is: "plane" or "planing"

The words "plan" and "planning" refer to the making of arrangements or contingencies -e.g., "I am planning a cruising vacation in Turkey this summer." Or "I don't know what I'm doing this summer as my wife is the one making the plan." "Plan" can also refer to a diagram or schematic, as in its use in the expression "plan form" - i.e., a graphical rendering of a particular yacht design.

I apologize for playing spelling policeman but hopefully nobody will take offense, as that was not my plan. 

However, since English is such a ridiculous language, I should probably note the words "plain" and "plains" - the former means "ordinary or non-descript" while the latter refers to extended flat landscapes.

Again, I beg forgiveness for this brief spelling lesson. I was an English teacher at a very early stage of my career, so it is a difficult habit to break.

I now return you to our regularly scheduled discussion of interesting boats, already in progress. 

MrP


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Rounded bows*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> I apologize for playing spelling policeman but hopefully nobody will take offense, as that was not my plan.
> ...


... no offense taken...
rather the contrary - i appreciate any correction because it allows me to learn... 

so - a plane lands plain in the plains according to the plan but if a plane planes planned on plain water, is it still just a plain plane?


----------



## PCP

*Cape 2 Rio*

Maserati arriving with a huge advance:


----------



## PCP

*Re: Rounded bows*



capt vimes said:


> ... And lifts the bow on a reach to plan earlier...
> And on a close haul the bow is less 'dipped in' by the broad stern... The waterlines in a heeled situation is less - how to say - offline... But more in line with the course the boat is going...
> There are a lot of merrits to a fat bow, but the main reason is lift to plan...


I don't think that the reason that XVIII century sailing boat was a rounded bow has to do to planing or dipping the bow while heeled (those boats heeled not much). Regarding an open type modern racer you are correct but that has nothing to do with this case.

We have talked extensively here about the advantages of that kind of bow, referring what his designer, David Raison, found about that in his studies and while racing and what we could observe on the last Transat. Maybe I did not have understood correctly Classic 30 question. I thought he was talking about the boat he posted.

Classic30, for more information search on the thread search engine for David Raison and Bathtube bow.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bjung

One of the new boats at Boot Duesseldorf this year will be the SQ25, a trailerable and incredibly versatile little boat. It will be available in many different layouts (interior and cockpit), performance or cruising rig, diesel or electric, and 3 keel configurations, for whatever your primary uses will be. The performance rig looks quite powerful. As a company, SQ has only been around for a year, but they are building boats in the old Dehler factory with most of the original Dehler production staff, so we should expect a pretty high build quality. They are also building Comfortina Yachts, and Scangaard 26. Can't wait to see the SQ25. 
Entwurf SQ 25 | SQ Freienohl
http://www.sqy.de/files/sq25-he-17-gen-seite_sport.pdf
The design is the result of a design competition, where the winner was chosen by popular vote on their website.
Maybe an option for Mr Pelicano?


----------



## PCP

*Sq 25*

Very nice boat and congratulations to Marc-Oliver von Ahlen for a great design...and to the public that chose a very nice boat.

SQ25 | Yachtdesign v. Ahlen

Here are the dimensions:

LOA 7.50 m (standard)
LOA 7,80 m (twin rudder)
Hull length 7.50 m
Lwl: 6.74 m
Beam 2.49 m
Air draft 11.40 m
Fixed keel standard 1.30 m
Fixed keel shallow 1.10 m
Swing keel 0.70 m-1, 80 m
Sail area 32.7 square meters (Standard rig)
Light Displacement 1600 kg

and the two versions, the standard and the fast one:

















Regarding the designer he has experience in small fast boats, he is the one that designed the Sailart 22, one of the boats nominated for this year European boat of the year contest, this boat:

Kunst am Boot: Sailart 22 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Also the one that designed the Sirius 35, one of the boats that was posted on the first posts of this thread.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Rounded bows*



capt vimes said:


> ... no offense taken...
> rather the contrary - i appreciate any correction because it allows me to learn...
> 
> so - a plane lands plain in the plains according to the plan but if a plane planes planned on plain water, is it still just a plain plane?


Couldn't have put it more plainly, Captain!


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Sq 25*



PCP said:


> Very nice boat and congratulations to Marc-Oliver von Ahlen for a great design...and to the public that chose a very nice boat.
> 
> SQ25 | Yachtdesign v. Ahlen
> 
> Here are the dimensions:
> 
> LOA 7.50 m (standard)
> LOA 7,80 m (twin rudder)
> Hull length 7.50 m
> Lwl: 6.74 m
> Beam 2.49 m
> Air draft 11.40 m
> Fixed keel standard 1.30 m
> Fixed keel shallow 1.10 m
> Swing keel 0.70 m-1, 80 m
> Sail area 32.7 square meters (Standard rig)
> Light Displacement 1600 kg
> 
> and the two versions, the standard and the fast one:
> 
> Regarding the designer he has experience in small fast boats, he is the one that designed the Sailart 22, one of the boats nominated for this year European boat of the year contest, this boat:
> 
> Kunst am Boot: Sailart 22 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin
> 
> Also the one that designed the Sirius 35, one of the boats that was posted on the first posts of this thread.


Wow! Very nice indeed. This could very well factor into my considerations, particularly the option with the enclosed marine head / shower (for certain family members for whom that is the most important feature of any sailboat). 

That extra 0.9M of length and corresponding interior volume would make for a more comfortable experience in any kind of serious breeze or sea state, compared to the Elan 210. I'm a big fan of the swing keel option, versus the lift keel (which I'm okay with, just prefer the former). Looking forward to seeing the finished product and pricing options.

Thanks very much for sharing this surprising (and very interesting, of course) little boat.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Norbert Sedlacek and Fipofix on their way again!*

Norbert Sedlacek has departed from Gijon in "Fipofix" for another singlehanded Atlantic crossing attempt. You may recall that his initial attempt, last Fall, was cut short by electrical problems and a collision with an unidentified floating object, which damaged his rudder.

He initially set off yesterday but encountered problems with autopilot controller that forced a return to Gijon for repairs. But now he is on his way and, if everything goes smoothly, will arrive in New York City in a few weeks.

I am really hoping he succeeds and will do my best to go down and visit the boat when he arrives.


----------



## PCP

*Faurby 460E*

Great news: Faurby is making a big one.

I confess that I have an irrational love for Faubry: Their boats are traditional, narrow and with one of the best finish on the market, a true work of art. Besides they are a family business and are very nice. I say Irrational because the design is good but nor really modern and the boats even if fast are not a match for the Luffe.

I believe that ended, I mean not being a match and not being contemporary. For the new one instead of being designed in the house, the design is from Lars. T. Olsen that we know for designing the HP 1030, a very fast boat. The 460E design seems sensational. Sure it will have a more traditional look than other performance cruisers but this time it is really only the look. This is the kind of traditional boat I like

Look at the dimensions:

Length................14.70 m
Hull length...........13,95 m
LWL....................12,35 m
Beam................... 3.90 m
Draft / alternative...2,25 m / 2,00, 2,70 m
Displacement..........8,5 t
Ballast...................3,6 t
MainSail................61 sqm
Sail area Jib...........48 sqm
Gennaker..............180 sqm
Motor 39 kW/53 hp

And look at the hull:



The boat comes with a rigging for solo sailing as you can see above.





Ok, the deawings are 2D and it will not look as good as 3D drawings but I know that this boat is beautiful.

The problem with narrow boats is that they are a lot more expensive, they have a lot less interior space and you need a bigger boat that it ends up having about the same weight, needing the same sail area, being faster....but much more expensive in maintenance and marinas. Money aside, this is probably the kind of boat that I would not mind to change by my own...but unless you have a lot of it money counts a lot.

Ok, I would like a more vertical bow and an open transom. The open transom I am sure it would not be a problem (they offer that possibility on the other boats) regarding the bow that is not obviously possible...but anyway who wants a perfect boat

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...34472506.46458.120339141376796&type=1&theater
http://www.faurby.dk/


----------



## Classic30

*Re: Rounded bows*



PCP said:


> ...... Maybe I did not have understood correctly Classic 30 question. I thought he was talking about the boat he posted.
> 
> Classic30, for more information search on the thread search engine for David Raison and Bathtube bow.


Paulo, it seems to me that you understood (and answered) my question correctly. ..but thanks for the search tips. I will look those up.

Keep going with your excellent thread.. .


----------



## PCP

*J-88 tested by YachtingWorld magazine:*






Nice boat!


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Norbert Sedlacek and Fipofix on their way again!*



MrPelicano said:


> Norbert Sedlacek has departed from Gijon in "Fipofix" for another singlehanded Atlantic crossing attempt. You may recall that his initial attempt, last Fall, was cut short by electrical problems and a collision with an unidentified floating object, which damaged his rudder.
> 
> He initially set off yesterday but encountered problems with autopilot controller that forced a return to Gijon for repairs. But now he is on his way and, if everything goes smoothly, will arrive in New York City in a few weeks.
> 
> I am really hoping he succeeds and will do my best to go down and visit the boat when he arrives.


yeah - all the best to harald and his little boat! 
new york - i thought he is crossing to st. augustine, florida?


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Norbert Sedlacek and Fipofix on their way again!*



capt vimes said:


> yeah - all the best to harald and his little boat!
> new york - i thought he is crossing to st. augustine, florida?


Damn! Must have changed his plan. And I don't blame him. If I crossed the Atlantic in a boat that small I would not want to arrive in New York City in winter. Unfortunately, I don't have the option of flying down to Florida to greet him.


----------



## PCP

*Sydney-Hobart 2013 and Radford 12*

The Hobart of the old designed boats is gonna away. Today almost all boats are contemporary designs, racing boats and performance cruisers. The Radford 12 is no exception, being a design of Graham Radford that was part of the crew. We can see on this nice movie that they went fast....and even so they only made 72 out of the 84 that finished the race. The Level towards performance in what regards the end of the fleet had grow substantially on the last years.






Copernicus - Sydney Hobart 2013 from Greg Wilkins on Vimeo.

The Radford 12 is a nice design with the particularity of being an aluminium boat:



Sail-World.com : Copernicus is coming: Radford Yachts

RADFORD YACHT DESIGN - Radford 12m - Cruiser/Racer

Radford is an Australian NA with many stock plans on the market, particularly aluminium voyage boats:

RADFORD YACHT DESIGN Home Page

He has also on his site a nice page about boat stability:

RADFORD YACHT DESIGN - Stability Discussion

and the fact that he participates as crew on his designs in tough races like this one contradicts the naysayers that insist that the NA that design this type of fast boats for offshore conditions don't really know what they are doing since they never sail their designs on this conditions. I know, it does not make sense but I am tired to hear things like that on this site

This Hobart was a tough one, specially for the boats on the tail of the race, like this Radford that have made it to the finish with fling colors...with the designer crewing it.


----------



## robelz

*Re: Norbert Sedlacek and Fipofix on their way again!*



MrPelicano said:


> Norbert Sedlacek has departed from Gijon in "Fipofix" for another singlehanded Atlantic crossing attempt. You may recall that his initial attempt, last Fall, was cut short by electrical problems and a collision with an unidentified floating object, which damaged his rudder.


It is Harald, Norbert's son!

Winner 8.00: Alles drin auf acht Metern - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE

After the big success of the Winner 900 they now present the 800: Winner 8.00: Alles drin auf acht Metern - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE


----------



## PCP

*The "professor" takes a new student:*

Michlel Desjoyeux, the two times vendee globe winner (and three times winner of the Solitaire du Figaro), called with good reason by the French "Le professeur" took under his wing the new French talent Corentin Horeau and will team up with him on the next Transat AG2R.

A nice guy Michel and with an eye for new talents. His last "student" was François Gabart, the last winner of the Vendee Globe and that one has already grown his own wings.

*Corentin Horeau : "I didn't really know Michel before dinner with him one night in Gijon during the last Solitaire du Figaro. It was after this dinner that I got the idea to propose to do race the Transat with him. I was a little intimidated, but I told myself that I had nothing to lose. So I sent him an email when he was sailing the Transat Jacques Vabre with François [Gabart]."
*

Desjoyeaux : *"I immediately thought Corentin's idea was friendly when I was offered to sail the Transat AG2R with him. To sail in the Figaro is part of my program in 2014, so this opportunity is welcome. I didn't know Corentin very well before last summer on the Solitaire du Figaro. I admit that the current passed between us and our partnership should be effective. We will train over winter in Port La Forêt where a lot of courses are already scheduled out of the Pôle France Finistère Course."*

Corentin was the 2012 winner of the Team Bretagne-Crédit Mutuel trials, that is the is French equivalent of the Artemis Offshore Academy, both aiming to bring new blood and talent to solo sailing offshore racing. Now Bretagne-Crédit Mutuel has made him its 'Skipper Espoir'.

I bet we will have here another winner. The 24 year's old skipper had done recently his first solo racing Transat with the best Figaro sailors (transat Bretagne Martinique), finishing 8th out of 15, even with some problems (he run out of fuel and water).

Here we can see him finishing that Transat:


----------



## PCP

*Thomas Coville started his attempt on the solo circumnavigation sail record:*

The record holder is Francis Joyon (solo) on Idec with 57 j 13 h 34' a difficult one to beat.

Here is the Teaser:






You can follow the attempt here:

Maxi-trimaran Sodebo - Record du tour du monde en solitaire

For now he is beating and losing time but soon he will have winds over 30K on the beam and should go like a rocket. I hope he does not take too much wind. This year that has been a nasty one!!!


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Sydney-Hobart 2013 and Radford 12*



PCP said:


> The Hobart of the old designed boats is gonna away. Today almost all boats are contemporary designs, racing boats and performance cruisers. The Radford 12 is no exception, being a design of Graham Radford that was part of the crew. We can see on this nice movie that they went fast....and even so they only made 72 out of the 84 that finished the race. The Level towards performance in what regards the end of the fleet had grow substantially on the last years.
> 
> The Radford 12 is a nice design with the particularity of being an aluminium boat:
> 
> Radford is an Australian NA with many stock plans on the market, particularly aluminium voyage boats:
> 
> RADFORD YACHT DESIGN Home Page
> 
> He has also on his site a nice page about boat stability:
> 
> RADFORD YACHT DESIGN - Stability Discussion
> 
> and the fact that he participates as crew on his designs in tough races like this one contradicts the naysayers that insist that the NA that design this type of fast boats for offshore conditions don't really know what they are doing since they never sail their designs on this conditions. I know, it does not make sense but I am tired to hear things like that on this site
> 
> This Hobart was a tough one, specially for the boats on the tail of the race, like this Radford that have made it to the finish with fling colors...with the designer crewing it.


At the risk of sounding overly critical, it is not surprising that they did not get a better result. Either they did not have the correct downwind sails or they decided to take a conservative strategy. The conditions during which they are flying the poled-out #3 with double-reefed main probably called for a 1.5oz or storm kite, if they were in full-on racing mode. I am not criticizing that decision, but I am willing to wager that other boats that finished ahead of them were being more aggressive, and carrying kites up to the limits of their prescribed range.

Of course, it is likely those boats have at least a few professional sailors on board, but I think if you want to make a good result in this race you have to push harder. For me, I probably would have kept a spinnaker up as much as possible, during daylight hours, and switched to the poled-out jib at night, if wind conditions called for it.

Again, it is easy to make such comments from behind a desk, staring at a computer screen. But I've raced in conditions just like that, so it's not like I'm suggesting crazy, reckless stuff. 

But they definitely looked like they were having a terrific time, and even in the big breeze they enjoyed shorts-and-technical shirt weather. Very comfy.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: The "professor" takes a new student:*



PCP said:


> Corentin was the 2012 winner of the Team Bretagne-Crédit Mutuel trials, that is the is French equivalent of the Artemis Offshore Academy, both aiming to bring new blood and talent to solo sailing offshore racing. Now Bretagne-Crédit Mutuel has made him its 'Skipper Espoir'.


Not many people know that Bretagne-Crédit Mutuel made me it's 'Skipper Désespoir' last year. A very good decision on their part.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Sydney-Hobart 2013 and Radford 12*



MrPelicano said:


> At the risk of sounding overly critical, it is not surprising that they did not get a better result. Either they did not have the correct downwind sails or they decided to take a conservative strategy. The conditions during which they are flying the poled-out #3 with double-reefed main probably called for a 1.5oz or storm kite, if they were in full-on racing mode. I am not criticizing that decision, but I am willing to wager that other boats that finished ahead of them were being more aggressive, and carrying kites up to the limits of their prescribed range.
> 
> Of course, it is likely those boats have at least a few professional sailors on board, but I think if you want to make a good result in this race you have to push harder. For me, I probably would have kept a spinnaker up as much as possible, during daylight hours, and switched to the poled-out jib at night, if wind conditions called for it.
> 
> Again, it is easy to make such comments from behind a desk, staring at a computer screen. But I've raced in conditions just like that, so it's not like I'm suggesting crazy, reckless stuff.
> 
> But they definitely looked like they were having a terrific time, and even in the big breeze they enjoyed shorts-and-technical shirt weather. Very comfy.


Yes anyway they go fast for amateurs. I have said they were on the tail of the race. You see lots of boats that by the numbers look slower finishing well ahead. For instance you see lots of First 40 5 hours and more ahead.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Another French skipper trying to break a solo record.*

Lionel Lemonchois solo on the Maxi 80ft trimaran Prince de la Bretagne will try to break the record Between Lorient (France) and and Maurice Island (Port-Louis) not far from Madagascar.. This record also belongs to Francis Joyon (26 days 4 hours and 13').

I find amazing how these guys can solo sail these monsters. The first one that showed that was possible was Franck Cammas that won the last Route du Rhum solo sailing the giant Grupama that was used previously by him (and a full crew) to beat the absolute circumnavigation record (that has already been beaten by Peyron).

He is going to try on the next days to beat also the solo 24 hours record (666,2 Nm at the average speed of 27,75 K)






http://www.routedesprinces.fr/en/teams/6/lionel-lemonchois.html

You can follow the attempt here:

http://maxi80-lamauricienne.addviso.org/fr/

(This will be the last post for some days)


----------



## robelz

Someone else at BOOT trade fair on thursday?


----------



## PCP

*Winners of the 2014 European boat of the year award.*

Not me that have been today at the Dusseldorf Messe , that was has good as usual, like the local beer at the AltStadt on that old brewery with an interior all in wood and that makes his own bear. One full day for the boats, two days for the brewery. The beer wins hands down

Tomorrow I will lunch in Kevelaer, a favorite small town with another fantastic brewery/restaurant (I had already dinned there) and it will be it for this year.

Regarding the boats, yesterday was the night were they have voted the boat of the year and it bring no surprises for me. The only one that I would not have indicated as Favorite on the respective categories would be the Saphier and that's because on that one there was two favorites, the Seascape 27 and the Saphier 27.

But if you have saw the movies that I posted (yacht.de) regarding the testing maybe you would remember that I commented how fast the boat seemed on light winds face to the other boats, even bigger ones. It seems that it was not only me that noticed that

The other winners, that proudly wear already today on the hulls that distinction, were for performance cruiser the Dehler 38, for family cruiser the Oceanis 38 and for luxury cruiser the Contest 42 CS.

Edit: after all the Saphire 27 was a clear favorite since the Seascape 27 was nominated last year, not this one.


----------



## Edward3

The Contest 42 CS looked sharp in the breezy Ft. Lauderdale - Key West race
Took her a while to come thru the fleet in the light going during first half of race but with 25+ knts and 80-90 APW she got her sea legs running
World Premiere boat that was black/gray/gold in color
The black sails with gold design looked a bit odd when reefed and the jib half rolled up
Nice guys showing the boat off at the dock
Carbon rig
Even though last place in IRC and 6 hours behind the Cookson 50 and Carkeek 40 she arrived in style and a lot dryer with the large raised bridgework and a lot more protection behind the dual wheels


----------



## robelz

*Re: Winners of the 2014 European boat of the year award.*



PCP said:


> Not me that have been today at the Messe, that was has good as usual, like the local beer on the AltStadt on that old brewery with an interior all in wood and that makes his own bear. One full day for the boats, two days for the brewery. The beer wins hands down
> 
> Tomorrow I will lunch in Kevelaer, a favorite small town with another fantastic brewery/restaurant (I had already dinned there) and it will be it for this year.
> 
> Regarding the boats, yesterday was the night were they have voted the boat of the year and it bring no surprises for me. The only one that I would not have indicated as Favorite on the respective categories would be the Saphier and thats because on that one there was two favorites, the Seascape 27 and the Saphier 27.
> 
> But if you have saw the movies that I posted (yacht.de) regarding the testing maybe you would remember that I commented how fast the boat seemed on light winds face to the other boats, even bigger ones. It seems that it was not only me that noticed that
> 
> The other winners, that proudly wear already today on the hulls that distinction, were for performance cruiser the Dehler 38, for family cruiser the Oceanis 38 and for luxury cruiser the Contest 42 CS.


Well, there are few breweries with wooden interior... Uerige? Schumacher? Füchschen? Schlüssel? These are the most famous ones... The "Alt" in Altstadt has nothing to do with the Altbeer. Altstadt means old town while Alt in Altbeer comes from the latin word "altus" which means "high" and refers to the top fermentation (similar to bavarian beer) method. I am pretty sure Wikipedia is wrong here (even the german wiki).

Well, there are no surprises with the EYOTY: They always chose the most boring one...


----------



## capt vimes

funny - the two tris on their record attempt are right now almost side by side... 
22°03 N 24°19 E heading 209° doing 27.4 knts for sobedo
22°06 N 23°02 E heading 208° doing 23.2 knts for prince de bretagne as of 09:00 hrs today.


----------



## robelz

Soler Yachts - fast cruiser with pilothouse, lifting keel and water ballast

The combination of a Sirius with a RM Yacht? Interesting weights - if true...


----------



## capt vimes

yeah, interesting if true...
still - there is something not kosher with the traveler being screwed to the transom - how is that supposed to work on deep reaches?
the two winches on either side directly in front of the helm is also something not very practical, especially in this configuration where the inner winch is rendered useless because the linefeed is blocked by either the helm or the other winch...








and have a look at the interior - do you see any available space for a fridge?








i know these are just rough renders but it looks weird...

some images of the soler 35FC which is build at the moment:
http://morozov-yachts.com/news.php?view=392


----------



## Mr W

robelz said:


> Soler Yachts - fast cruiser with pilothouse, lifting keel and water ballast
> 
> The combination of a Sirius with a RM Yacht? Interesting weights - if true...


Funny looking boat, but I like thinking outside the box so... :thewave:

//Mr W


----------



## PCP

Edward3 said:


> The Contest 42 CS looked sharp in the breezy Ft. Lauderdale - Key West race
> Took her a while to come thru the fleet in the light going during first half of race but with 25+ knts and 80-90 APW she got her sea legs running
> World Premiere boat that was black/gray/gold in color
> The black sails with gold design looked a bit odd when reefed and the jib half rolled up
> Nice guys showing the boat off at the dock
> Carbon rig
> Even though last place in IRC and 6 hours behind the Cookson 50 and Carkeek 40 she arrived in style and a lot dryer with the large raised bridgework and a lot more protection behind the dual wheels


I have no doubt that one of the reason why the Contest 42 won was because it sailed exceptionally well for that type of boat. It takes some balls to take that boat on a true race The boat is on the same class of Halberg Rassy and company.

The Gunfleet 58 was also a strong contender. I don't like the boat "style" but I has very impressed with its performance on the last ARC. A good cruiser no doubt, personal taste aside.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*2014 European boat of the year - the movie*

Here are the winning boats:

*Movie:*

Das sind die Siegeryachten 2014 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


----------



## bjung

*Re: SQ 25*

Finally, pics of the new SQ25.
Messe: boot-Premieren, Teil III: SQ 25 - Yachten + Jollen | YACHT.DE
47k € incl. vat, sailaway, no engine.


----------



## PCP

*European boat of the year 2014 - Beneteau Oceanis 38*

More important than to know that the boat was choosen is to know why it was chosen and regarding that I find that the opinion of the different testers is very relevant. Here they are with a "free" translation:

*The British from Yachting World:*

"By far the most radical and innovative in their group, both in appearance as in their concept, the Beneteau Oceanis 38 designed by Pascal Conq fom Groupe Finot&#8230; *it has a moderate and easy to handle sail plan a surprisingly lively performance for a boat of this type. The twin rudder give a solid, secure feeling, while the cockpit design allows it to be easily sailed by a small crew.* Available as Daysailer , weekenders or cruiser, the Oceanis 38 can be later adapted and upgraded by equippement modules. this multi-tasking interior is a strong and fresh approach of the shipyard, which has often set innovative trends in boat building.

*The Dutch from Waterkampioen :*

"A great performance from the French shipyard: It has developed a boat that fits to several purposes and that will provide fun. The cockpit and the large swim platform make the yacht very adequate for bathing and living in beautiful spots at anchor. The equipment with their various options that can be adapted from day-sailing to cruising is very special and the most amazing is that all of the combinations work really well. Finally, *the Oceanis sails also really well.*

*The Swiss from Marina.ch : *

Beneteau proved that it makes sense to make new design developments even in difficult times. The new Oceanis is more than merely a decorative cosmetic regarding older models. Especially the modular equipment is something new on the market being the the two most compelling versions the Weekender and the Cruiser. *Also convincing the bright atmosphere below deck, the layout of the cockpit and the sailing performance.*

*The Italians from Fare Vela:*

As the most innovative boat in the competition, the new Oceanis is a concept that can bring a revolution to the world of touring boats. You can buy a basic version and then change over the years the equipment, adding it or replacing it by omne more adapted to your sailing program and this is the most interesting aspect &#8230;.The exterior is not so appealing, yet modern and well thought out but *she sails impressively, especially against the wind*. Only the price is a bit high, especially if one takes into account the entire building quality&#8230;..as always Beneteau is a leader in innovation.

*The Austrians from Yacht Revue : *

Oceanis 38 , the most innovative boat in this size, it offers a tremendous diversity and plenty of space everywhere. Nice atmosphere inside, a comfortable cockpit, a special layout for cruising with functional Targa bar and *impressive sailing performance at a wind speed of more than 20 knots.*

*The Swedes from Segling :*

The concept with three versions - Daysailer, weekender and full cruising boat - is an innovative and interesting idea and the equipment solutions by Nauta Design will amaze you with its simple modernity. *The sail performance has proved to be good enough to even face challenging conditions.*

*The French from Voile and Voiliers:*

Oceanis has created with her new loft concept a very special interior. The more interesting thing is not so much the possibility of converting the boat after the purchase but the feeling of a huge open space. The 38 is also easy to sail, roomy, and t*he hull has plenty of stability and that gives a feeling of security when the wind picks up.* Definitely not a race boat, but a boat to have a great time on the water.

*The Spanish from Nautica & Yates :*

Instead of making a boat on the line with the other cruising boats in the Oceanis line, one in direct competition with the models of its subsidiary Jeanneau the French shipyard enters unexplored territory: *Sailing fun*, lounge atmosphere at the anchorage, a cockpit that provides lots of socializing and a big swimming platform. The design is attractive, and so far as we could test: it works.

*The Deutch from Yacht.de:*

Beneteau has opened a new chapter in terms layout and design, in fact, the market leaders provided an interior that looks so huge and bright that you feel you are on a much, much larger boat, it is perfect.. .. Applause for the presentation and color scheme, which gives the interior a special ambience. Probably we will have similar concepts from other shipyards . *The sail performance under sail with less than ten knots of wind was not exceptional, even with code 0, typical of wide, heavy touring boats, but the Oceanis showed that it can cope, fully controlled, with harsh conditions (and the twin rudder contributes to that control)*. Well done! "


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: SQ 25*



bjung said:


> Finally, pics of the new SQ25.
> Messe: boot-Premieren, Teil III: SQ 25 - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
> 47k € incl. vat, sailaway, no engine.


So, in price it is not too far from the Elan 210, though I don't think the Elan price includes VAT and definitely not sailaway - e.g., no sails or electronics. But similar boats, in many respects. I would say the SQ25 is more oriented towards cruising - the enclosed marine heads, the wood deck inlays, etc. - than the Elan. And, of course, the SQ25 is a larger boat. Side by side I think I would choose the Elan 210, but I would guess my wife would prefer the SQ25. Looking forward to seeing a sail test by Toby from YW.


----------



## PCP

*Dehler 38 viewed by the Jury:*

*The British from Yachting World:*
To develop the next generation of modern performance cruiser, Dehler has ignored the current trend to hard chines, double rudders and retractable bowsprit&#8230;.. The design is unquestionably a Yudel / Vrolijks design. *And while it is certainly meant for cruising sailors, he will often be found with equipment and deck layout for ORC and IRC regatta races.* Notwithstanding the regatta potential the Dehler is at the same time easy to sail solo or with a short crew use.. All this and the possible rig and keel variations make the Dehler 38 very polyvalent on this competitive class and size.

*The Dutch from Waterkampioen :*
Dehler is finally back!!. A very nice sailboat very well-designed features, maybe a little dark inside, but with surprisingly good solutions, as we were used to Dehler from the seventies and eighties .... v*ery nice to look at and also a good family boat*, the 38 is not specific sailboat, but a very clever combination of good ideas -... a true performance cruiser "

*The Swiss from Marina.ch* : 
The first Dehler, enteirely built in Greifswald, is in a truly positive surprise: Dehler is still Dehler in terms of design, but also on the sailing characteristics. The design is striking and the slender hull does not have pronounced the missing chines.. . ..*The Dehler 38 is a great cruiser that will not disappoint also on the race course*.

*The Norwegians from Seilas*:
Dehler was on the target with many right decisions and created a performance boat that will serve many purposes. T*he Dehler 38 is a great family boat, but also a fast performance cruiser that without being revolutionary or innovative or revolutionary, its nice and sails well*.

*The Italians from Fare Vela*:
If you are looking for an* attractive, well-designed and well-performing fast boat for a small family and one at a good price*, then the new German boat might be right one. The design is modern and good: the deck layout is consistent and well-adjusted, the interior shows a modern style with some new ideas &#8230; Obviously you cannot expect perfect results or material of the highest quality for the contained price, but everything looks stylish and neat.
*In what regards sailing the Dehler 38 is a good all-rounder*, with a power that can bring joy even in club regattas. But even if you have sporty cruising on the target you should order the complete performance package with both deep keel and Regatta rig. Either way, the Dehler can be regarded as a timeless performance cruiser, a good successor to the Dehler 36&#8230;

*The Austrians from Yacht Revue : *
*The Dehler 38 could be the definition of performance cruiser concept: Good looks from the inside out, perfectly functional deck layout, fast sailing in all conditions and a very attractive price*.

*The French from Voile and Voiliers:*
*The Dehler 38&#8230;. is a fast cruiser with no weak points.* Very nice and aggressive look, clever and current layout below deck as well as good performance on the water.

*The Spanish from Nautica & Yates* :
The Dehler has all you could expect from a a 38-foot performance cruiser or cruiser / racer : *We were impressed by its speed and ease of sailing. *The handling and maneuverability are well thought out for regatta courses, but cockpit and deck still provide comfort when cruising. Design and building are of high quality while the price is reasonable.

*The Deutch from Yacht.de:*
*While many shipyards were working in this segment of lighter, stiffer, even faster boats while neglecting the comfort, Dehler takes a different approach with their new 38. It is just as nimble as comfortable. This may not be revolutionary, but it gives it a broad appeal and works in practice really very well.* The owner can choose between more power thanks to several rig, keel and lightweight options, or equip the boat more to cruising. All this for a price that is hard to beat. A great comeback for a brand that has passed through many hands and finally seems to have the original Dehler DNA. "

Well, not very exciting as a performance cruiser but highly valued as a fast cruiser for the family. The Italians point out very rightly what I had been sayng about this boat: that for this one to be a performance cruiser it has to be outfitted with a huge number of very expensive extras, from epoxy hull to taller rig, deeper keel and so on...and then is not "cheap" anymore but much more expensive. This in the lower end version it is more a sports family cruiser than a performance cruiser and not one suited for racing.

It seems that everybody was in accordance in choosing this boat but I did not posted some Jury opinions that were....humm not very clear, for instance the Danish member mumbled about this boat being slower than the much smaller XP 33 (also in competition) and the Swede jury that the best it says about the boat was : *"a yacht that is exceptionally free of annoying errors. " *

Not very exciting for a performance cruiser but (on its standard version) certainly one of the best family cruisers on the market and a fast and beautiful one.

It seems to me that the categories should be more clear and more numerous: Family cruisers seems alright for me as well as performance cruisers but it is needed another one for cruiser-racers, like the Xp33 or the MAT 10.10, faster boats pointed more for racing at high levell then cruising but that can be also used as a a very fast cruising boat. A truly polyvalent boat.

Sure a performance cruiser is also a polyvalent boat but here we are talking about club racing and more or less extensive cruising potential, not about top racing.

Don't take me wrong, I love the Dehler 38 and now that I am becoming old, It might very well suit me as a cruising boat but it seems unfair to me that a boat like this one could be compared for example with a Sydney 37. How can you judge and compare boats that are aiming to so different objectives and market public, one primarily aimed for cruising and some club racing and the other aimed for top racing and some non extensive cruising?


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: European boat of the year 2014 - Beneteau Oceanis 38*



PCP said:


> More important than to know that the boat was choosen is to know why it was chosen...


I think I know why the boat was chosen. It is obvious from the second video of the two Paulo posted. And Beneteau marketing is very clever, in this respect. The reason someone will buy this boat is because, as the video makes clear, if you own a new Beneteau Oceanis 38 you are going to have a lot of great sex with a beautiful woman/man, in totally exotic places and in complete comfort. And it will all be totally effortless.

By the end of the video, I was ready to buy one. However, the sailaway price needs to include Justine Mettraux.


----------



## PCP

*Re: European boat of the year 2014 - Beneteau Oceanis 38*



MrPelicano said:


> I think I know why the boat was chosen. It is obvious from the second video of the two Paulo posted. And Beneteau marketing is very clever, in this respect. The reason someone will buy this boat is because, as the video makes clear, if you own a new Beneteau Oceanis 38 you are going to have a lot of great sex with a beautiful woman/man, in totally exotic places and in complete comfort. And it will all be totally effortless.
> 
> By the end of the video, I was ready to buy one. However, the sailaway price needs to include Justine Mettraux.


Yes Justine is a sexy girl but it would also out perform you sailing and that could be a little embarrassing to that kind of macho personality

No, the reason the Oceanis was chosen was because it has a nice setting for a sexy holidays (or a family one) and besides that it sails well.

I know you don't cruise but when you do you will find out that it is not only about sailing but also about enjoying living aboard and in what regards both worlds the Oceanis seems very well suited to me...sure it will attract much more chicks or wives than a stripped out faster cruiser racer but that is not a bad thing, quite the contrary.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: European boat of the year 2014 - Beneteau Oceanis 38*



PCP said:


> Yes Justine is a sexy girl but it would also out perform you sailing and that could be a little embarrassing to that kind of macho personality
> 
> No, the reason the Oceanis was chosen was because it has a nice setting for a sexy holidays (or a family one) and besides that it sails well.
> 
> I know you don't cruise but when you do you will find out that it is not only about sailing but also about enjoying living aboard and in what regards both worlds the Oceanis seems very well suited to me...sure it will attract much more chicks or wives than a stripped out faster cruiser racer but that is not a bad thing, quite the contrary.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I am afraid I must agree with every point you make. But it is painful to do so.


----------



## PCP

*Mat 12.45*

Well as a prize of agreeing so much have a look at the redesigned MAT 12 (Mills) now MAT 12.45:











M.A.T. Sailing Yachts - New MAT 1245 features 1 start


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mat 12.45*



PCP said:


> Well as a prize of agreeing so much have a look at the redesigned MAT 12 (Mills) now MAT 12.45:


Uncanny! I was at this exact moment looking at the MAT boats and wondering if they were too "performance" oriented to pass the "cruiser" test. Now I am afraid you know me far too well.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Mat 12.45*



PCP said:


> Well as a prize of agreeing so much have a look at the redesigned MAT 12 (Mills) now MAT 12.45


Now this is what I'm talking about, when it comes to good crew work and strong hiking. These guys are giving a very good effort upwind (and apparently going quite fast - they roll right over 41 early after the start in video #1).

The downwind parts remind me how much I disliked flying the A-sails off a regular spi pole - gybing is a pain in the buttocks for the bowman. I did bow on a 52' and a 50' that both had that set-up (also had to deal with it on the Farr/Mumm 30, but those kites and pole were smaller and lighter). Fortunately, the 52 switched to an IRC-optimized fixed sprit the next season, making me a happy camper. 

Really nice looking boat, that I'm sure is way out of my price range. I'm guessing even more expensive than the Dehler 46 that Paulo has now got me captivated by. :laugher


----------



## MrPelicano

*More on M.A.T - the 6.5*

By one of those odd coincidences, I have had occasion to race on one of the M.A.T Mini 6.50's:

M.A.T. Sailing Yachts - M.A.T. 6.5

More specifically, I have sailed on several occasions on the former CAN 415, when it was based in British Columbia, including the Swiftsure Race in 2006. What's rather funny is that I knew it was built in Turkey but didn't realize it was built at M.A.T until today. Great boat, albeit with rudder issues that took a long time to sort out - indeed, not sure they were ever sorted.

Boat also did the Around-Vancouver-Island Race, I think in 2004 or 2005. The owner at that time had the goal of doing the Transat, but sponsorship money never came together as planned. Pity, as he is a good sailor, with Open 50 experience, as well.


----------



## PCP

*Solo and short crewed racing*



MrPelicano said:


> By one of those odd coincidences, I have had occasion to race on one of the M.A.T Mini 6.50's:
> 
> M.A.T. Sailing Yachts - M.A.T. 6.5
> 
> More specifically, I have sailed on several occasions on the former CAN 415, when it was based in British Columbia, including the Swiftsure Race in 2006. What's rather funny is that I knew it was built in Turkey but didn't realize it was built at M.A.T until today. Great boat, albeit with rudder issues that took a long time to sort out - indeed, not sure they were ever sorted.
> 
> Boat also did the Around-Vancouver-Island Race, I think in 2004 or 2005. The owner at that time had the goal of doing the Transat, but sponsorship money never came together as planned. Pity, as he is a good sailor, with Open 50 experience, as well.


That is really sad since the costs of solo racing on a mini is really small and the return big....I mean for the ones that follow the races and I guess the Americans don't.

Maybe that is changing but I guess it will take time in the US. In Great Britain, even with all conservatism regarding sailing they are changing fast and solo and short crew are becoming much more popular. The Vendee Globe is very big now also in GB and they are desperate to win it. Just look at this movie:






and it is not only in what regards open class boats and the Figaro class but also on IRC. As we all know the last Fastnet was won on compensated by a duo crew but maybe you have not noticed the number of duo crews. Have a look:

Sailing Results

and I bet that this year that percentage will increase again as has been increasing with each year.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Dusseldorf Messe 2014*

A quick look:


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Solo and short crewed racing*



PCP said:


> That is really sad since the costs of solo racing on a mini is really small and the return big....I mean for the ones that follow the races and I guess the Americans don't.
> 
> Maybe that is changing but I guess it will take time in the US. In Great Britain, even with all conservatism regarding sailing they are changing fast and solo and short crew are becoming much more popular. The Vendee Globe is very big now also in GB and they are desperate to win it. Just look at this movie:
> 
> and it is not only in what regards open class boats and the Figaro class but also on IRC. As we all know the last Fastnet was won on compensated by a duo crew but maybe you have not noticed the number of duo crews. Have a look:
> 
> Sailing Results
> 
> and I bet that this year that percentage will increase again as has been increasing with each year.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


There is nothing even remotely like Artemis Academy for solo sailing in the United States. Indeed, there's not much of anything for developing professional sailors, and precious little for developing amateurs, as well. Even U.S. Olympic Sailing is considered, in certain circles, to be something of a joke (as is U.S. Sailing, in general).

I am extremely impressed by the number of 2-handed entries in the last Fastnet. You are correct that I had no idea there were so many. And what impressed me the most was the Archambault 31 in 5th place. That is a tiny boat to be taking out to Fastnet Rock and back, but since there are not a few doing the TransQuadra, I suppose I should not be surprised. 

BTW, are you actually attending Dusseldorf this year? If so, have you been able to take a first-hand look at the Seascape 27?

MrP


----------



## PCP

*Re: Solo and short crewed racing*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> 
> BTW, are you actually attending Dusseldorf this year? If so, have you been able to take a first-hand look at the Seascape 27?
> MrP


I guess you missed this post some few days ago:



PCP said:


> Not me that have been today at the Dusseldorf Messe that was as good as usual, like the local beer at the AltStadt on that old brewery with an interior all in wood, that makes his own bear. One full day for the boats, two days for the brewery. The beer wins hands down
> 
> Tomorrow I will lunch in Kevelaer, a favorite small town with another fantastic brewery/restaurant (I had already dinned there) and it will be it for this year...
> .


Yes I had a good look at the Seascape 27 (I even had taken two photos). The boat was next to the Saphire 27, this year's European boat of the year and also an incredibly fast boat. The difference was striking: One maximized to upwind sailing and lighter wind and the other for downwind sailing and stronger winds. Two ways of having very fast boats...but not on the same conditions

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Winners of the 2014 European boat of the year award.*



robelz said:


> Well, there are few breweries with wooden interior... Uerige? Schumacher? Füchschen? Schlüssel? These are the most famous ones... The "Alt" in Altstadt has nothing to do with the Altbeer. Altstadt means old town while Alt in Altbeer comes from the latin word "altus" which means "high" and refers to the top fermentation (similar to bavarian beer) method. I am pretty sure Wikipedia is wrong here (even the german wiki).
> 
> Well, there are no surprises with the EYOTY: They always chose the most boring one...


Yes, I mean the first one, Uerige. I know what means Altstadt and what I said was that the Uerige is on the Altstadt

I love the typical beer from Dusseldorf (the dark bitter one) the one that is called elsewhere India Pale Ale, a funny name since it has nothing to do with the beer being made in India. In fact it is a British one but I doubt that would have come from British to Germany. How is that bear named there? They always ask me if I want the blond or the dark

I don't agree with you regarding them choosing always the more boring ones: Last year the performance cruiser was the Pogo 12.50 and the Luxury cruiser the Yt 13.98, the two most exciting yachts on each category.

I understand their choice and even agree with it but as I have said it seems to me that a category is missing, one that separates performance cruisers from top racers with cruising potential.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Morozov*



capt vimes said:


> yeah, interesting if true...
> still - there is something not kosher with the traveler being screwed to the transom - how is that supposed to work on deep reaches?
> the two winches on either side directly in front of the helm is also something not very practical, especially in this configuration where the inner winch is rendered useless because the linefeed is blocked by either the helm or the other winch...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and have a look at the interior - do you see any available space for a fridge?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i know these are just rough renders but it looks weird...
> 
> some images of the soler 35FC which is build at the moment:
> Morozov Yachts: Soler-35 Fast Cruiser Hull No.1


That in fact is not a new brand but a kind of auto promotion based on a design series by Morozov, a Russian NA. He had been posting many designs on internet but his designs were not turned in reality many times. His more known and significant work (made real) has nothing new, a motorsailor, kind of "Fisher" style and Atoa, a high latitude sailboat,



not bad but pretty banal (underbody and hull) that took ages to sell and was announced for ages on the internet and magazines. I see also a huge motor yacht (that I didn't new off) and that seems nice.

Morozov Yachts custom yachts for unlimited cruising

Regarding the new Soler series, they are based on 40 class boats but with some oddities and some design that I really don't think it fits, like a 40class boat with a cat cabin that increases windage a lot. Those high cabins are needed on cats but not on monohulls and I don't understand why he uses them on those designs. Even for what he purposed he did not need to have a sopreminent cabin, look for instance for the RM line.

The only one that is actually being made is the 35 and regarding that one I find the hull design too fat on the middle section and as I said, the overall design ugly and out of proportion.

Morozov Yachts: SOLER-35 FC Fast Cruiser

Morozov Yachts: Soler-35 Fast Cruiser Hull No.1

Some of the other Morozov designs, some much more interesting than the Soler series appear now under the name of Teixido & Harrold (including the Soler) but his name never appears there????. I had saw some of those designs posted years ago under the name of Morozov. Take a looK:

teixido_/) harrold yacht design and engineering

Bottom point: some really nice designs (not the Soler) but no racing experience nor testing on those hulls so I would reserve my opinion about its effectiveness. Nice drawings means not necessarily efficient hulls but I would say that Morozov deserved a better chance to prove his ideas. Not so easy in Russia

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

capt vimes said:


> funny - the two tris on their record attempt are right now almost side by side...
> 22°03 N 24°19 E heading 209° doing 27.4 knts for sobedo
> 22°06 N 23°02 E heading 208° doing 23.2 knts for prince de bretagne as of 09:00 hrs today.


----------



## PCP

*European boat of the year: Saphire 27*

I had already have posted about this boat and was impressed with its speed, concept and with what the testers said about it...but it seemed that it was only me since the boat did not raised many comments, maybe because it is not a boat designed on the line of Open boats.

It is a Claudio Maletto design, Claudio is a specialist in ORCI so this boat should do very well in compensated, even IRC, probably much better than the Seascape 27.

Because it is built by Delphia and sold by the Internet they have managed to keep the price really down for the quality.

It seems that this was not only the boat where they had more fun sailing as well as the one everybody was in agreement regarding this to be the best boat in its class.

Take a look:

*The British from Yachting World*:

It is designed for the racing-oriented part of the market, but it also offers the possibility of day sailing or weekend cruising and *it proved to be much easier to sail, even with a small than what its sporty looks at first sight suggests*.
The design of Claudio Maletto is typical of a modern fast racer&#8230; *she goes so close to the wind as a witch. Their clever operating concept for pods and blocks, the smooth operation of the large sail plan allows, is another example of good design. Details like these cost money and yet their price appears, taking into consideration the carbon rig and other points, very attractive.*

*The Dutch from Waterkampioen :*

A powerfull sailboat with a modern appearance. The concept behind it is very charming and the rather weak interior finish is partially forgiven by the T-keel and carbon mast that makes it* a sports boat, but one easy to sail*. And you can tow it behind the car to, to a regatta &#8230;

*The Norwegians from Seilas:*

This is not a typical family cruiser, but *will definitely attract adrenaline junkies. *Today's kids like it extreme, and if you want to make a good GoPro video from sailing vacation, this is the right boat. *It is not only fun when planing downwind, it also points surprisingly close to the wind.*

*The Swiss from Marina.ch :*

Michael Tobler, a Swiss businessman and racing sailor wanted to create a boat with a different program, a boat that would be as good for racing as to sail with the family and worked the program with the Italian NA, Claudio Maletto. Delphia, the Poland shipyard, built the boat. *The result is a compelling mix of great sailing fun and family-friendly ease of use.*

*The Italians from Fare Vela:*

It is a sporty agile eight-meter boat : *on the water, easy to handle, even when the wind picks up a boat on which you have not to be an expert to have fun with the big gennaker. With it on the boat starts to plan from 11 to 12 knots.* It's a flexible concept, with the standard version you can participate in races, and if you add some extras, the boat can be turned in a small cruiser with four bunks, galley and toilet. The Saphire is well equipped with a carbon mast, T-Kiel and powerful sail plan. Because the boat has not a backstay it can have a big square-top mainsail. The hull follows a shallow U-frame with pronounced chimes that come from the bow to the transom. It is very easy to handle, at sea and on land. You do not need a crane to launch the boat into the water, and on top of that a well-organized system puts the mast in place.

*The Austrians from Yacht Revue : *

*The perfect compromise between a racer and a Daysailer Cruiser. Main Features: Easy and quick to sail in all conditions, good layout, interesting rig with a powerful mainsail, one-design concept and habitable cabin.
*

*The Danish from BadNyt:*

*Nice little boat with impressive performance* even if is handled carelessly. Below deck no real expansion concept and the seating for the helmsman is uncomfortable. It's great fun to sail this boat mainly due to its easiness, good stability and strong, inspired by catamarans, rig concept. This boat has the potential to be a one class for specific events such as the German Bundesliga or at the Danish Sport Boat League.

*The Swedes from Segling :*

Buy the Swiss sapphire 27 online, and you'll get it on a trailer delivered to your home. That's the brand new sales concept, but it is also the boat that will put a smile on your face when you sail with it! *Regardless of whether you are alone or the whole family , there is fun for all.* Vacuum injection process and an electric drive also mean less pollution&#8230;

*The French from Voile and Voiliers:*

A clear victory of the Saphire that it is not so special in itself, but does exactly what it's made to do: *a really fast little boat that gives a lot of pleasure to the crew. The hull likes sailing in a light wind and excels with the right breeze*. The boat is also easy to trailer and to rig. And you have enough space inside in the boat, although it is rather narrow and that is needed because plenty will want to come as crew. *Regatta fun, guaranteed!*

*The Deutch from Yacht.de:*

To win this trophy with the first model it is something that very few builders had managed in the history of European Yacht of the Year and that's why this victory tells a lot about the Saphires 27: *A stunning, light, strong boat that will give plenty of fun on inland lakes or along the coast. It was not surprising that the Saphire sails exceptionally well in light wind, better than most of the larger Performance Cruisers, but she was also very balanced and controlled in gusty 5-6 Beaufort. On the whole: A great boat!*


----------



## PCP

*Design - Inverted bows*

I have been talking about inverted bows on another thread but it is here that it makes sense to discuss them.

I will post some of the stuff I had posted elsewhere. They seem to me the next boat revolution after beam being brought back, resulting in large transoms even in not necessarily beamy boats.

No, they are not a fashion, they have a purpose and that's diminishing wave drag through a better wave penetration. Modern inverted bows were designed to meet strong sea conditions (with significant sized waves) and to be more efficient on those conditions. The inverted bow shape reduces pitch and speed loss in waves diminish slamming and bow impact, reducing stress in that area reducing the probability of damage in extreme weather..

An inverted bow does not result necessarily in a lower buoyancy at the bow. That depends of the bow design and it is possible to have a bigger buoyancy with a wave piercing bow than with a conventional one. The design would have to be a far more complex one but I believe that in the future we will see bows wit a rounded submersed shape, coming backwards and becoming thinner almost till the top where you have to add some kind of wingless to deflect and prevent the water to came rushing backwards. that will have also the advantage to create some lift.

Here, a motorboat with that type of deflectors I was imagining (it seems somebody has already invented it):





That way we can add the advantages of a rounded bow in what regards superior hull form stability and bigger buoyancy, specially needed with big transom boats going close upwind without, the disadvantages of a substantially increase wave drag (upwind) in difficult conditions.

Regarding offshore sailboats the inverted bows were first used on the new generation of racing multihulls namely the trimarans that were designed to beat the absolute solo circumnavigation record. You cannot do that with a sailboat that is not seaworthy since they will cross the worse seas on the planet. I am talking about Thomas Coville and Francis Joyon boats and they have done that successfully, at least Joyon. Coville is at the sea trying to beat Joyon circumnavigation record:











Since then all new built ocean racer trimarans were built with inverted bows:

Here the Prince de Bretagne:






Here Vibac Paprec:






Or here, Banque Populaire:



Many offshore cruising cats use already inverted bows:











and racing offshore monohulls start to use them too:







I bet that in less than two years a substantial number of offshore performance cruisers will be using them too, for a good reason: If well designed they are not a liability in what regards seaworthiness and improve performance. For now they are still very few. This is one of the first performance cruisers with an inverted bow, the beautiful and fast Neo 400:


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27*



PCP said:


> I had already have posted about this boat and was impressed with its speed, concept and with what the testers said about it...but it seemed that it was only me since the boat did not raised many comments, maybe because it is not a boat designed on the line of Open boats.
> 
> It is a Claudio Maletto design, Claudio is a specialist in ORCI so this boat should do very well in compensated, even IRC, probably much better than the Seascape 27.
> 
> Because it is built by Delphia and sold by the Internet they have managed to keep the price really down for the quality.
> 
> It seems that this was not only the boat where they had more fun sailing as well as the one everybody was in agreement regarding this to be the best boat in its class.
> 
> Take a look:
> 
> *The British from Yachting World*:
> 
> It is designed for the racing-oriented part of the market, but it also offers the possibility of day sailing or weekend cruising and *it proved to be much easier to sail, even with a small than what its sporty looks at first sight suggests*.
> The design of Claudio Maletto is typical of a modern fast racer&#8230; *she goes so close to the wind as a witch. Their clever operating concept for pods and blocks, the smooth operation of the large sail plan allows, is another example of good design. Details like these cost money and yet their price appears, taking into consideration the carbon rig and other points, very attractive.*
> 
> *The Dutch from Waterkampioen :*
> 
> A powerfull sailboat with a modern appearance. The concept behind it is very charming and the rather weak interior finish is partially forgiven by the T-keel and carbon mast that makes it* a sports boat, but one easy to sail*. And you can tow it behind the car to, to a regatta &#8230;
> 
> *The Norwegians from Seilas:*
> 
> This is not a typical family cruiser, but *will definitely attract adrenaline junkies. *Today's kids like it extreme, and if you want to make a good GoPro video from sailing vacation, this is the right boat. *It is not only fun when planing downwind, it also points surprisingly close to the wind.*
> 
> *The Swiss from Marina.ch :*
> 
> Michael Tobler, a Swiss businessman and racing sailor wanted to create a boat with a different program, a boat that would be as good for racing as to sail with the family and worked the program with the Italian NA, Claudio Maletto. Delphia, the Poland shipyard, built the boat. *The result is a compelling mix of great sailing fun and family-friendly ease of use.*
> 
> *The Italians from Fare Vela:*
> 
> It is a sporty agile eight-meter boat : *on the water, easy to handle, even when the wind picks up a boat on which you have not to be an expert to have fun with the big gennaker. With it on the boat starts to plan from 11 to 12 knots.* It's a flexible concept, with the standard version you can participate in races, and if you add some extras, the boat can be turned in a small cruiser with four bunks, galley and toilet. The Saphire is well equipped with a carbon mast, T-Kiel and powerful sail plan. Because the boat has not a backstay it can have a big square-top mainsail. The hull follows a shallow U-frame with pronounced chimes that come from the bow to the transom. It is very easy to handle, at sea and on land. You do not need a crane to launch the boat into the water, and on top of that a well-organized system puts the mast in place.
> 
> *The Austrians from Yacht Revue : *
> 
> *The perfect compromise between a racer and a Daysailer Cruiser. Main Features: Easy and quick to sail in all conditions, good layout, interesting rig with a powerful mainsail, one-design concept and habitable cabin.
> *
> 
> *The Danish from BadNyt:*
> 
> *Nice little boat with impressive performance* even if is handled carelessly. Below deck no real expansion concept and the seating for the helmsman is uncomfortable. It's great fun to sail this boat mainly due to its easiness, good stability and strong, inspired by catamarans, rig concept. This boat has the potential to be a one class for specific events such as the German Bundesliga or at the Danish Sport Boat League.
> 
> *The Swedes from Segling :*
> 
> Buy the Swiss sapphire 27 online, and you'll get it on a trailer delivered to your home. That's the brand new sales concept, but it is also the boat that will put a smile on your face when you sail with it! *Regardless of whether you are alone or the whole family , there is fun for all.* Vacuum injection process and an electric drive also mean less pollution&#8230;
> 
> *The French from Voile and Voiliers:*
> 
> A clear victory of the Saphire that it is not so special in itself, but does exactly what it's made to do: *a really fast little boat that gives a lot of pleasure to the crew. The hull likes sailing in a light wind and excels with the right breeze*. The boat is also easy to trailer and to rig. And you have enough space inside in the boat, although it is rather narrow and that is needed because plenty will want to come as crew. *Regatta fun, guaranteed!*
> 
> *The Deutch from Yacht.de:*
> 
> To win this trophy with the first model it is something that very few builders had managed in the history of European Yacht of the Year and that's why this victory tells a lot about the Saphires 27: *A stunning, light, strong boat that will give plenty of fun on inland lakes or along the coast. It was not surprising that the Saphire sails exceptionally well in light wind, better than most of the larger Performance Cruisers, but she was also very balanced and controlled in gusty 5-6 Beaufort. On the whole: A great boat!*


I clicked through the "Design Your Saphire 27" process and came up with a sail away price of about $118,000 USD before shipping to the U.S. East Coast. Add another $3,000 for that, plus U.S. import duties, and the boat will set you back something like $125,000 or so. That would include trailer, sails, electrical, sail / boat covers, marine head / partial bulkhead, and instruments (but no motor). Instinctively that seems like a lot of money to me, though still quite a bit less than a J/88. Pricing the Seascape 27 is harder, since they don't make that information readily available, but as soon as the first boat arrives in the U.S. I hope to find out more. I suspect the two boats are comparably priced.

It's definitely an intriguing boat, but I would choose the Seascape 27 for what I think would be its stronger offshore capabilities. Even though the reviewers feel the Saphire 27 is a very strong boat, I have a high degree of confidence in Sam Manuard.


----------



## PCP

*Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> 
> It's definitely an intriguing boat, but I would choose the Seascape 27 for what I think would be its stronger offshore capabilities. Even though the reviewers feel the Saphire 27 is a very strong boat, I have a high degree of confidence in Sam Manuard.


Yes, I believe the Seascape 27 would be a better offshore boat even if it seems that the Saphire 27 is remarkably good for a narrow boat but I am not sure if in real time the Seascape will be faster. I guess it will depend on the conditions. Surely faster on a transat or an offshore race downwind but I am pretty sure the Saphire would be faster in a traditional regatta with downwind and upwind legs and definitively faster in light winds. Probably better too in compensated.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

well - the fastest tri and record holder over 500 m and the nautical mile does not have an inverted bow...
what does that tell us?


----------



## bjung

*Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27*

I also clicked on options, and arrived at $108k, which I believe is too much for this boat. One thing, when Yacht initially tested the boat, they complained of poor finish quality and too much pressure on the rudder. In the video of the winners, on a different hull, again the comment comes up about finish quality with the comment that those bugs will be ironed out in the future. 
I would wait for the future before clicking the "buy now" button.
I was really surprised, that the Django didn't get the nod.


----------



## bjung

*Oceanis 38*

Regarding the Bene 38, i doubt it will enjoy record sales here in the US. From my conversations with brokers, the 38 is not receiving the warm welcome as they had hoped, but the sales for the Oceanis 37 platinum version are doing very well. The high freeboard, and angular, blocky appearance is most likely too "Euro" (yes, Paulo, EURO, not modern or contemporary!!!  ) for the US. Also, sailperformance is not an improvement over the O37.
The versatility down below, is what most likely swayed the judges.
I really liked the Winner 9.00 in that category. Would be nice to get the testing notes from the judges for all boats, winner or not.


----------



## PCP

*Reversed bows.*



capt vimes said:


> well - the fastest tri and record holder over 500 m and the nautical mile does not have an inverted bow...
> what does that tell us?


The Hydroptere comes from the past (1994) and it is a design that has been continually upgraded. Both amas (lateral floaters) have already inverted bows and as all new contemporary racing trimarans, the development project previews also an inverted bow on the main hull as well as a rigid wing. As you know the project has run out of funding on the last years and that is what explains the delay in upgrading the boat.

Some pictures, the first one comparing the existent with the project from some years ago and the last one with the last development:







I hope they found the money to go ahead with the new boat that should be miles ahead from the older one. In fact the new boat makes the previous version look quite old

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27*



bjung said:


> I also clicked on options, and arrived at $108k, which I believe is too much for this boat. One thing, when Yacht initially tested the boat, they complained of poor finish quality and too much pressure on the rudder. In the video of the winners, on a different hull, again the comment comes up about finish quality with the comment that those bugs will be ironed out in the future.
> I would wait for the future before clicking the "buy now" button.
> I was really surprised, that the Django didn't get the nod.


The Django 6.70 was a remake of a previous boat (new hull) and a boat more limited on the program and sailing potential. The Saphire 27 just blew their minds with the performance in light wind. Look at the video of the boat testing and you will see the boat outsailing everything, including the bigger performance cruisers. The poor finish regards the interior and it is not particular to this boat but common on boats pointing more towards absolute performance.



This type of boats, narrow with a very high B/D ratio are more expensive to build than beamier boats with a lesser B/D ratio. The efforts on the hull due to the ballast are bigger and the hull has to be stronger. The boat also includes a carbon mast top rigging and good sails and all that is very expensive.

I believe the testers new what they were talking about when they made those remarks about the boat having a good price. There is nothing more expensive than top performance

Multitalent Saphire 27 im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


----------



## PCP

*Re: Oceanis 38*



bjung said:


> Regarding the Bene 38, i doubt it will enjoy record sales here in the US. From my conversations with brokers, the 38 is not receiving the warm welcome as they had hoped, but the sales for the Oceanis 37 platinum version are doing very well. The high freeboard, and angular, blocky appearance is most likely too "Euro" (yes, Paulo, EURO, not modern or contemporary!!!  ) for the US. Also, sailperformance is not an improvement over the O37.
> The versatility down below, is what most likely swayed the judges.
> I really liked the Winner 9.00 in that category. Would be nice to get the testing notes from the judges for all boats, winner or not.


Yes, very contemporary, I would say revolutionary for a mass production boat (as the testers pointed out) and yes I did not expect that the boat would sell well in the US: Too conservative sailors

But that is good, they can sell the old Oceanis 37 in the states while they will sell the 38 on the rest of the world. I believe the boat is going to be a sucess and US sales are not very representative in total sales numbers.





Anyway the Americans need time: When it went out the Oceanis 37 was very modern, a big hit on Europe but not on the States where it took 5 years to get acceptance. I believe the same will happen with the 38.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I find your comment that a wave piercing type bow can have more volume forward for a given LOA (I assume) very interesting. Could you please demonstrate that in some definitive manner. Because, I've been thinking about that since you posted the comment and I just can't see how it works without going to some silly distorted shape.

What do you have in mind? And you can skip the vague generalities and stereotyping.


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Reversed bows.*



PCP said:


> The Hydroptere comes from the past (1994) and it is a design that has been continually upgraded. Both amas (lateral floaters) have already inverted bows and as all new contemporary racing trimarans, the development project previews also an inverted bow on the main hull as well as a rigid wing. As you know the project has run out of funding on the last years and that is what explains the delay in upgrading the boat.
> 
> Some pictures, the first one comparing the existent with the project from some years ago and the last one with the last development:
> 
> I hope they found the money to go ahead with the new boat that should be miles ahead from the older one. In fact the new boat makes the previous version look quite old
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


oh - i hope that they get their fundings as well... incredible what they achieved!
btw - their amas look like they were taken directly from some waterplane and screwed to a slender monohull... 
and please do not get me wrong - while i see the merits of wave piercing bows in race boats, i do not see them in cruisers...
as mentioned in the other thread, without massive water ballast, all those ocean racing monos are prone for a nose dive - and i think you cannot disagree with that.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> I find your comment that a wave piercing type bow can have more volume forward for a given LOA (I assume) very interesting. Could you please demonstrate that in some definitive manner. Because, I've been thinking about that since you posted the comment and I just can't see how it works without going to some silly distorted shape.
> 
> What do you have in mind? And you can skip the vague generalities and stereotyping.


Bob maybe I did not have been clear and its good that you ask since it helps clarification. I did not mean that regarding LWL but regarding Hull length that is normally measure at the deck (well it seems not anymore). What happens his that when an inverted bow is used on a modern boat, hull length at the deck level is not reduced but the bow, instead of coming down almost vertically or very slightly backwards, extends itself forward at water level. that results in an increased volume.


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I think you are confusing LOD Length On Deck with LOA Length Over All.

As I see it:
LOA is just that and it doesnt matter what you do to the bow.
LOD would be effected by how the bow is raked.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> I think you are confusing LOD Length On Deck with LOA Length Over All.
> 
> As I see it:
> LOA is just that and it doesnt matter what you do to the bow.
> LOD would be effected by how the bow is raked.


Here the most used dimensions regarding lenght are Hull Length, LOA and LWL.

The Hull length is not necessarily the LOD since many times the transom is bigger than the deck. What I mean is that when you use an inverted bow the Hull lenght that normally is measured from the beginning of the bow on the deck (where the stay is fixed) will not be measured from there anymore but from the forward tip of the bow, even if for design purposes, regarding the deck, rig and boat interior what counts is LOD or the interior space in the case of a very inclined bow.

For a given purpose you will not be designing a smaller boat on the deck and interior space when using an inverted bow instead of a vertical or slightly inclined one, so in fact you will get more buoyancy using an inverted one.

This was what I meant to say. Of course if you maintain hull length you will have not only less buoyancy on the bow but also a smaller boat not only on LOD but also in interior volume and space and what makes sense when talking about a similar sized boat is interior space not LOA.

Better with a design. Here we have the same boat that has originally an inverted bow:



If a more traditional bow was used the bow buoyancy would be smaller for the same LOA:



Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27*



PCP said:


> The Django 6.70 was a remake of a previous boat (new hull) and a boat more limited on the program and sailing potential. The Saphire 27 just blew their minds with the performance in light wind. Look at the video of the boat testing and you will see the boat outsailing everything, including the bigger performance cruisers. The poor finish regards the interior and it is not particular to this boat but common on boats pointing more towards absolute performance.
> 
> This type of boats, narrow with a very high B/D ratio are more expensive to build than beamier boats with a lesser B/D ratio. The efforts on the hull due to the ballast are bigger and the hull has to be stronger. The boat also includes a carbon mast top rigging and good sails and all that is very expensive.
> 
> I believe the testers new what they were talking about when they made those remarks about the boat having a good price. There is nothing more expensive than top performance
> 
> Multitalent Saphire 27 im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


It would be interesting to see a performance comparison between the Saphire 27 and the J/88, as the boats are less dissimilar than the Saphire 27 and Seascape 27. While the J/88 is a slightly bigger boat, both designs appear optimized for all-around conditions. I don't have time right now to compare the numbers, but I bring it up primarily because the price for a J/88 is quite a bit higher than the Saphire 27, and it doesn't have a lifting keel, making transport and storage more of a hassle.

I suppose we just need to get used to the fact that the price of high performance boats will continue to rise, just like everything else (except most peoples' salaries, which in the U.S. continue to shrink).  In the EU, one must deal with VAT, as well, which makes things even more challenging.

One alternative is to shift construction to China and other low-cost countries. But then, I think it is very important to maintain a yacht building industry in Europe (and the U.S., of course). And building quality boats requires a great deal of skill. And people with such skills ought be compensated properly, in my opinion (with all due respect to skilled boat builders in China and Taiwan).


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
That cryptic illustration proves nothing. I wouild have to see how much deck each example had forward and some sections thru the area.

If you drop the "weave piercing (which I doubt) bow and just use a straight stem i.e. plumb stem, you can flare the deck out more and gain a lot of volume.

No, for a given LOA, as measured in the standard method, you DO NOT get more volume forward with a wave piercing bow. You get less and that is the whole point of the shape.

I've been drawing reverse bows for years.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> That cryptic illustration proves nothing.....
> 
> No, for a given LOA, as measured in the standard method, you DO NOT get more volume forward with a wave piercing bow. You get less and that is the whole point of the shape.
> ...


It seems pretty clear to me. At red you have the extra volume that is added with the inverted bow.



PCP;1339993 said:


> Here we have the same boat that has originally an inverted bow:
> 
> 
> 
> If a more traditional bow was used the bow buoyancy would be smaller for the same LOA:


It seems we do not have the same opinion about this.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Paulo:
I have a little time this afternoon. Let me do a quick sketch to try and illustrate what I am saying. I think perhaps like a few times in the past that you and I may be saying the same thing in different ways.

I'll do a sketch.


----------



## bobperry

I think this sketch represents what we are talking about.
With the conventional bow profile I get 15.62& more area in the bow section.
I chose a section that would be representative of the area in question. The rest of my proportions are intended to be reasonable approximations of the actual shapes you would encounter.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Reversed bows.*



capt vimes said:


> ...
> and please do not get me wrong - while i see the merits of wave piercing bows in race boats, i do not see them in cruisers...
> as mentioned in the other thread, without massive water ballast, all those ocean racing monos are prone for a nose dive - and i think you cannot disagree with that.


Yes I disagree with that. Trimarans don't have water ballast and as I have showed you don't have necessarily to have less buoyancy. The Neo 400, the performance cruiser that I had posted above does not have water ballast and you are going to see on the next years most performance cruisers adopting the inverted bow simply because it works better performance wise.

An inverted bow is not necessarily wave piercing, in the sense it works on the that fast motor boat. There is many ways to design an inverted bow and the objective on a sailboat is to diminish wave drag with a better dissipation of the wave energy and with less spray not to pierce waves passing through them.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Fareast 31R*



MrPelicano said:


> ....
> 
> One alternative is to shift construction to China and other low-cost countries. But then, I think it is very important to maintain a yacht building industry in Europe (and the U.S., of course). And building quality boats requires a great deal of skill. And people with such skills ought be compensated properly, in my opinion (with all due respect to skilled boat builders in China and Taiwan).


That has already being happening and the last boat is beautiful. I saw it on Dusseldorf and life is even more impressive. I mean this one:





A Simonis Voogd design made for Fareast, a Chinese company. This one is not a boat made by an American or European company in China but a true Chinese boat. They are all very young and very enthusiastic and I believe they will go far.

This boat the 31r has a base price of USD 140 000 euros and that is pretty incredible since it is a carbon boat including carbon rig. It comes without sails and white. The red one costs more USD 3750.

The dimensions point to a true rocket:

Displacement - 1800kg and from those 1200Kg are ballast

Draft 2.10m Lenght 9.80m, Beam 2.95m, Sail area upwind 65.0m2, downwind 161.0m2.






They have a boat that may interest you, the Fareast 26. I have already posted about it.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> I think this sketch represents what we are talking about.
> With the conventional bow profile I get 15.62& more area in the bow section.
> I chose a section that would be representative of the area in question. The rest of my proportions are intended to be reasonable approximations of the actual shapes you would encounter.


Yes of course but that is not what I am saying. If you look at the two drawings and what I said:



*"If a more traditional bow was used the bow buoyancy would be smaller for the same LOA":*

[/quote]

You will see that we are not talking about the same thing. I am talking about the same LOA and LOD and you are talking about hull length.

In fact I think that your boat with the conventional interior even with the same hull length has in fact a superior interior volume (we can see that on the plan, on the forward part), in one word is bigger and I have said that previously:

*"For a given purpose you will not be designing a smaller boat on the deck and interior space when using an inverted bow instead of a vertical or slightly inclined one, so in fact you will get more buoyancy using an inverted one.

This was what I meant to say. Of course if you maintain hull length you will have not only less buoyancy on the bow but also a smaller boat not only on LOD but also in interior volume and space and what makes sense when talking about a similar sized boat is interior space not LOA."*

Maybe after all we are not disagreeing

One of the biggest advantages that I saw in an inverted bow is the possibility of keeping on the waterline a more rounded profile (like they are doing now on the Open boats) but having a shape on the superior sections that will offer less drag to waves, dissipating better the energy. Of course it will be complex because it is also needed to provide a shape (on the top) that will took away the spray from the deck. The more rounded shape at waterline will increase in much the buoyancy and volume (a bit like on the bath tube bow) but an inverted shape can provide a better wave penetration than on the bathtube bow. Interesting stuff in my opinion. I believe we are going to see on the next years some funny looking bows on race boats and performance cruisers

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
We built 120 of these Flying Tiger 10 meters in China. We also build a 7.5 m model.
We did this project over 5 years ago.


----------



## PCP

*Flying Tiger*

Nice boats:

Flying Tiger Boats

The difference is that while this is an American Company making boats in China, Fareast is a Chinese company making high quality boats, the first one.

By the way, have a look here:

Langfahrt: Einblicke in eine Blauwasseryacht - Panorama | YACHT.DE

Lots of pictures with nice comments.

The Aluminium boat you designed and was made in Holland is today a famous boat in Germany due to the new owners that are very popular cruisers.


----------



## bobperry

Thanks a lot Paulo!
I don't speak German so I have no idea what the article says. My son speaks German and I'll see him on Sunday. I'll see if he can translate. That's a great photo. I truly appreciate you calling this to my attention. I have communicated with the owners but I know nothing about them. Maybe one day I'll be known in Germany. I really am a huge Wagner fan.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Thanks a lot Paulo!
> I don't speak German so I have no idea what the article says. My son speaks German and I'll see him on Sunday. I'll see if he can translate. That's a great photo. I truly appreciate you calling this to my attention. I have communicated with the owners but I know nothing about them. Maybe one day I'll be known in Germany. I really am a huge Wagner fan.


They have a movie:






Sie nannten sie Marlin from Tigersnail Film on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*RM 890, a different boat for almost everyone:*

Just some of the colors available:


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I'd love to know the thinking about starting the chine so far forward. I have my own ideas but I don't trust them. Yet.


----------



## blt2ski

HMMMMMMMMMM
get my copy of "sailing" today, and mr bp and paulo are arguing over one of the reviewed boats.....well, maybe not arguing, but ea saying something different, using the same words...........

Nice review of the fareast and sf3600 in the recent issue Bob! now if I could afford the 3600, or the 349........Id be a happy camper. THen again, I brought home a "Showboat" rag from work......spouse says something to effect these boats are in a different league.......a mere 14-15Mil US$ for one of the sailboats listed.....mid 100' arena......hmmmmmmm

Marty


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> I'd love to know the thinking about starting the chine so far forward. I have my own ideas but I don't trust them. Yet.


I would not look a try to understand that based only based on functionality in what regards sail performance since that hull is a compromise (a good one) that has also to do with the building material and building technique (plywood and epoxy). Here a better picture of the forward section:



This is a hull based on open boats concept and with a large transom. I would risk to say that in this case the main objective is to deflect spray (keeping the deck free of water) and create some lift on the bow area when the boat is planing downwind (the boat is designed to plan at something like 16/20K downwind).

Bur for a better analyse of this type of hulls the best is to look to the best that is done at the moment, the Pogo40 S3 designed by Verdier. It is a race boat, very light and therefore the hull is less deep but we can see that the chines also begin quite forward:









It seems to me that the finality is the same and in this case also connected with the big asymmetry of this hull while sailing upwind. Probably that chine so forward is studied also to give directional stability to the boat and create a "groove" at the more efficient angle of heel when the boat is sailing upwind.

These boats are solo boats and therefore designed to be sailed on autopilot at high speed and near the limit and anything that can contribute to an easier boat to sail and that doesn't affect performance in a significant way is welcome and can be a performance advantage.

I think you are going to like this video:






This is an Akilaria 950, a race solo boat that is at midway between a mini racer and a Class40. The guy filmed the underbody while the boat is sailing upwind. We can see that almost half of the hull bottom is out of the water (with a low heeling angle) and that the immersed part is a very narrow one even if the boat has a huge beam. Pity he had not done the same at the bow

regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria Easy 9.7...easy for 49 950 €.*



blt2ski said:


> ...
> Nice review of the fareast and sf3600 in the recent issue Bob! now if I could afford the 3600, or the 349........Id be a happy camper. THen again, I brought home a "Showboat" rag from work......spouse says something to effect these boats are in a different league.......a mere 14-15Mil US$ for one of the sailboats listed.....mid 100' arena......hmmmmmmm
> 
> Marty


Marty the 3600 is more expensive than the 349 and it is a top racer with a quite naked interior, but the 349 is just what you want trust me. I saw the boat in Dusseldorf and I thought in you. Probably you have pissed the Jeanneau guys so much about having a big head on a small boat with separated shower and all that they have made it just for you

It seemed a great boat to me, way better than the 379 and as good as the 409 in what regards design with just a little snag. I will post about it soon.

But let me tell you that if you don't have the money for it makes not sense to wait for years but more sense in buying the "new" Bavaria Easy 9.7, a good boat that now costs here 49 950 € including sails.

*"Daysailer, Weekender or Fun Cruiser, whatever you may call the BAVARIA EASY 9.7, she concentrates only upon the essentials. Her open stern, the spacious cockpit and the tidy deck layout make the handling of the BAVARIA EASY 9.7 simple for single or double handed crews precisely and efficient, just easy. The helmsman can comfortably reach the winches for the genoa which makes manoeuvring become an easy game.

Below decks the spacious atmosphere feels like a 37-foot yacht. A wide and light flooded saloon gives a loft feel with open views. Big bunks in the stern and bow, a coffee table in the saloon, a small galley for tasty snacks occasionally and an easy-care bathroom unit which is part of the basic setup make it easy for either on a long or only short week-end trip.





An impressive base price for the BAVARIA EASY 9.7 of only 49,950 Euros excluding tax. The Easy Living package is also available for 6,590 Euros excluding taxes and includes additional practical equipment. Besides the cockpit table, a transom shower is also fitted in the cockpit. A fridge, holding tank, a 240v shore power connection along with a hot shower in the bathroom nicely round up the Easy Living package. "*

Bavaria Yachtbau: BAVARIA EASY 9.7 ? 49.950,- ? excluding tax ? That?s why I?m easy!

The boat is a Bavaria answer to the Hanse Varianta series and it is quite interesting, a kind of Bavaria 33 (Farr designed) reduced to the essentials, but lighter and therefore faster.

you guys keep saying that new boats are expensive...well, this one (or the Varianta 37) are not and are also great sailing boats. The Bavaria 33 was already a lot of boat for the money (for more 20 000 euros) now the price of the new version is just an EASY one

Here a very nice comparative test between the Bavaria 33 and the Hanse 345

*Movie:*

Bavaria Cruiser 33 gegen Hanse 345 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin











A boat test:

http://www.farrdesign.com/reviews/675m_Cruiser33_Sailing_Today_Feb2013.pdf

In fact I like more the new version: It is lighter, it has not that big swimming platform, featuring an open transom (that I find more attractive) and has not that strange system with the mainsheet line passing trough the top of the cockpit table. The table is out and the mainsail line goes to the cockpit deck were it will be easy to add a traveler.

I don't have a fixed cockpit table on my boat and find out that a removable small teak garden table does very well the job for a fraction of the price and leaving the cockpit uncluttered when stored.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*European boat of the year 2014: Contest 42cs*

The last boat (but not least) that won a award was the Contest 42 Cs and I cannot be happier with the choice, firstly because I am sure it is a great boat and secondly because it marks the return of Contest to the "affordable" market.

Contest is still today one of the cruisers that is more searched in Europe as an old boat in the used market. The boats, then designed by Dick Zaal, had a very good and deserved reputation in what regards quality and seaworthiness, only comparable today with Halberg Rassy. Then they changed to the big yacht market and stopped to make "small" yachts, being the smaller in the line a 45 footer and are more known by big yachts (bigger than 50ft) that very few can afford.

The 42 CS, a Georg Nissen design, like the others, seems to point to a return to his first market, the one of smaller sailboats. Not that the 42 is an inexpensive boat, probably the prices are similar to the ones of Halberg Rassy, but the quality is not inferior.

This one, with the Saphire 27 were the two boats that deserved a consensual opinion as being the best in their class. It is very impressive the global consensus about the fell, quality and sailing performance of this boat.

I would say that if someone is looking for a high quality cruiser 42/44ft boat, like the Halberg Rassy, Malo or XC, it should also have a good look at this one: I don't believe so many knowlegeable testers can be wrong in what they say about this boat and all say the same: A superyacht feel and quality with a very good performance. Impressive!!!





*The British from Yachting World:*

*Once again on this category many interesting and good quality boats, with the candidates showing very different interpretations of the luxury concept. ..The Dutch presented a rather modest oversized family yacht that knows how to shine consistently. And they have managed to maintain their typical brand benchmark in what regards seaworthiness and quality construction. This give to it the aura of their much larger semi-custom vessels. The 42 CS provides nimble sailing performance, a variety of expansion options, a protected cockpit and a well-styled interior. Everything about it exudes class.*

*The Dutch from Waterkampioen :*

*This is a new direction for Contest Yacht. Old Contest still can be seen in around with a high quality design and built quality. This one is a boat from 2014, but with a pedigree of nearly half a century of Contest yachts. A very spacious and luxurious interior for a 42-foot boat. A very nicely designed cockpit. A stunning cabin roof in combination with an amazing deck. Regarding this size and this segment this boat is really something new. All this with a very high standard of build quality.*

*The Norwegians from Seilas: *

*From the interior the contest looks like a 50 fter, but is only 42 feet long. The standing height with well over two meters, the large windows and bright interiors give the boat a "wow" feeling. It sails surprisingly well and looks beautiful on the water. The Contest 42 CS will be the new benchmark in the lower size of the luxury yacht segment. *

*The Swiss from Marina.ch : *

*With its size, the Contest is at the lower end of this group and shows that luxury is not just a matter of size. &#8230;even among the larger competitors &#8230; the contest offers superyacht feeling on 42 feet sized boat.*

*The Italians from Fare Vela:*

*The contest is an elegant semi-custom approach to a sport-cruiser with the aim to please two audiences: those who wants performance, as well as want comfort for the family. They have achieved both goals. The contest offers several cockpit and rigging layouts with which you can adjust the boat individually. .. The cockpit looks very tidy and well suited for sailing. The rear cockpit is well protected ..At sea, the CS 42 is powerful, and sometimes you forget you are sailing on a relatively heavy cruiser. *

*The Austrians from Yacht Revue : *

*A truly stunning boat in this category, a variable cockpit concept with two control wheels, good sailing performance, modern design, different layouts below deck, very good build quality and a sensitive control system.*

*The Danish from BadNyt:*

*An impressive hull number 1 was tested in Southampton. Except for a few a few blemishes, the finish was overall excellent and the boat exudes luxury, not only from a distance, but also at a closer look. It works well and proved itself as serious sailing yacht. It has "only" 42 feet, but on board it feels much larger. Very luminous due to various "windows", it is pure pleasure to use the salon in port or at sea.*

*The Swedes from Segling :*

*Great design, the highest level of construction quality combined with outstanding performance and excellent maneuverability characterize these Dutch wonder. Despite being an aft cockpit boat you feel safely protected on long passages. The illumination system with the touch screen contributes to the ultra-modern impression.*

*The French from Voile and Voiliers:*

*The contest won the award not only because of its high build quality and outstanding finishes of but because it is also a boat on which you dream of blue water trips done without the need of a professional crew. We were very impressed with the quality, thoughtful Deck equipment: a sailboat easy to sail and easy to trim, with real comfort for the crew.*

*The Spanish from Nautica & Yates:*

*High quality, luxury and excellent craftsmanship in an aft cockpit boat, which is rather unusual on a brand specialized in center cockpit boats. Three very well thought cockpit layouts are aimed at three different types of owners and sailors. Good looks and excellent sailing characteristics complete the package. 
*
*The Deutch from Yacht.de:*

*The Contest 42 CS is the smallest of the five fabulous candidates in the luxury category and yet feels and sails the a maxi-yacht, only more compact and much easier to handle. The cockpit rigging provides plenty of options being this more of a semi-custom than a series yacht. Great looks and fine craft work appear here as a matter of course. If one is willing to spend for a fully equipped boat over 500,000 Euros, you will hardly find better. Choosing for a true connoisseur! *


----------



## PCP

*Elan 320*

One of the boats that had impress me at Dusseldorf was the Elan 320. Alright, it is a 310 MKII but what the hell, the 310 was a great boat and when you improve a great boat, you got an even better boat and that's what the 320 is.

Regarding cruising the boat is perfect for a family with kids, even two couples will be alright for some time. The boat has a great galley, a big freezer and a big head with a space for wet jackets. Lots of storage space on a big cockpit locker. Great performance cruiser for the size.

The 310 was a boat that could do also well racing, solo or crewed. The 320 will be able to do better since it is slightly lighter with the same ballast. Well I would have liked a bit more ballast and a bit lighter but we cannot have all things: that would make the boat substantially more expensive...and one of the things that make interesting is the price

Technical specifications:

Length Overall 9.55 m
Hull Length 9.25 m
Length at waterline 8.71 m
Beam 3.22 m
Draft 2.15m / 1.90m / 1.50m
Displacement 3690 kg
Ballast 900kg / 1050kg / 1060kg
Water capacity 140 litres
Fuel capacity 45 litres
Engine 18 HP
Mainsail 30.15 m²
Jib 23.47 m²
Gennaker 75 m²

Boat design category CE A
Design Rob Humphreys Yacht Design
& Elan Design Team

price: 92 810 EUR including German VAT (19%), but without sails.




























Before someone starts to say that two wheels makes no sense on a small boat let me say that a tiller is optional. I would prefer a tiller but it seems that the two wheels can have advantages in what regards crewed racing.

This is the 310. The 320 is just slightly faster


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

I can probably get a 349 cheaper than a Varanta. As it will cost me $20K or so US to get the boat across the atlantic, then across NA. Where as I only have to get a 349 across NA, as I am recalling them building it in the joint South Carolina plant on the east coast. OR hopefully they will be. Otherwise at $120K for a base boat, I would be surprised one can get a boat with that level of trim etc for that base of a cost here any how. 

But with a spouse losing some 50K a year since 08 in the reality market, new boats, much less barely affording a place to live is not happening. House is for sale, hopefully it will sell before the bank forecloses, boat may be soon also. This depression over here has not been good to us for many reasons shapes and forms.

Marty


----------



## Osprey 26

Complete novice at all of this if asked question would probably get brushed aside.
I will ask just in case I could be wrong.
Wind power is good thing.
What is with this heated debate about different shape of sailboats?
Some are narow some are wide. Narow is slow, wide is fast. What is safe, what is not for ocean travel?


----------



## robelz

Osprey 26 said:


> Complete novice at all of this if asked question would probably get brushed aside.
> I will ask just in case I could be wrong.
> Wind power is good thing.
> What is with this heated debate about different shape of sailboats?
> Some are narow some are wide. Narow is slow, wide is fast. What is safe, what is not for ocean travel?


Wide (and flat) 
- is slow in low winds
- is slower upwind (and usually isn't able to point as high as narrow boats)
- able to plan downwind (and then way faster)
- is more stable in what regards heel
- has more space inside

Narrow
- is less harsh in wave movement
- has less wetted surface and therefore faster in the light
- points higher and faster
- heels a lot

If you concider ocean traveling with the tradewinds (most of the time downwind) and do not care of a light and simple interior, the wide french performance-cruisers are your choice. If you are going mainly upwind and looking for a traditional wodden interior you might look for a more traditional boat.

In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing...


----------



## Jaramaz

robelz said:


> Wide (and flat)
> - is slow in low winds
> - is slower upwind (and usually isn't able to point as high as narrow boats)
> - able to plan downwind (and then way faster)
> - is more stable in what regards heel
> - has more space inside
> 
> Narrow
> - is less harsh in wave movement
> - has less wetted surface and therefore faster in the light
> - points higher and faster
> - heels a lot
> 
> If you concider ocean traveling with the tradewinds (most of the time downwind) and do not care of a light and simple interior, the wide french performance-cruisers are your choice. If you are going mainly upwind and looking for a traditional wodden interior you might look for a more traditional boat.
> 
> In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing...


This I do not agree with. Sweeping generalizations, as I see it. Robelz view is the rather old fashion view that many "old salts" (who owns narrow boats) use to claim.

Any meaningful comparision must have some common ground, point of reference. Otherwise one compares apples with bananas.

My personal experience defies RobelZ statements:
My boat is about the size of 12 m x 4 m, quite fat then. In the area we are sailing there are many long and narrow boats, as Safir, Smaragd, Wasa 55, Omega 42 and so on. In light winds we are usually faster, maybe with an exception for light downwinds. We usually can point higher, still go faster than the narrow ones (a bit of a chock for the Safirs, I can tell you, these are famous for very high pointing ability). 
When the wind increase, speeds start to approach hull speed, then the longest waterline usually dominates, as expected.

What regards heeling stability, one usually talks about 
- initial stability
- final stability

Initial stability is stems mainly from form stability, ie the shape of the boat where a fat boat has an advantage. On the other hand, many narrow boats are more or less intended to sail heeling, and has often a pronounced final stability, which is not as pronounced on a fat boat. Fat boats are often intended to be sailed with just a minor heeling.

The statement


> In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing


 is often used in the debate in one or the other form, usually naming some mass produced boats (but I have heard it about many other boats as HR elder generations, Vindö, and so on). 
It is of course incorrect. In the case of Bavaria and Bene, they have both models that are fast and can compete with many others, both manufacturer also produces slower boats.

/J


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I can probably get a 349 cheaper than a Varanta. As it will cost me $20K or so US to get the boat across the atlantic, then across NA. Where as I only have to get a 349 across NA, as I am recalling them building it in the joint South Carolina plant on the east coast. OR hopefully they will be. Otherwise at $120K for a base boat, I would be surprised one can get a boat with that level of trim etc for that base of a cost here any how.
> 
> But with a spouse losing some 50K a year since 08 in the reality market, new boats, much less barely affording a place to live is not happening. House is for sale, hopefully it will sell before the bank forecloses, boat may be soon also. This depression over here has not been good to us for many reasons shapes and forms.
> 
> Marty


Hei Marty,

Marty really sorry to know about your troubles. If it serves you of any consolation in Portugal we are also having a bad time. Me and my wive I retired early with a big cut on the pensions preferring to have time to money but what we did not expect was that our pensions to be cut after being granted. They went down as much as 25% and I was counting on the Architecture work (the pension is from teaching work) but that has also been down also with very few people buying new houses and with lots of older houses for sale cheaply. Not really a problem for us because we have everything paid own the house and the boat but life as to be more modest. Only now things start to look better in what regards the country but it will take years to go back to normality.

Back to sailing, I was mot talking about the Varianta but about the Bavaria 9.7. The base price there for a Bavaria 33 is 148 200 USD. The base price for the 9.7 should be about 120 000 USD, something like that. I believe it will be a bit cheaper than the jeanneau, but the Jeanneau 349 is a better boat. The price you give for the Jeanneau 349 is considerably lower than what the boat costs in Europe.

On boat prices a lot depends on local policies, factory interest, dealer cut and price of equipment but if that Bavaria cannot be sold at least for less USD 20 000 less than the Jeanneau 349 it would not be a good deal. I will keep an eye on that out of curiosity.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*On design*



Osprey 26 said:


> Complete novice at all of this if asked question would probably get brushed aside. I will ask just in case I could be wrong.
> Wind power is good thing.
> What is with this heated debate about different shape of sailboats?
> Some are narow some are wide. Narow is slow, wide is fast. What is safe, what is not for ocean travel?


Not a question of being brushed aside but what you ask is what this thread is all about. Stick around and you learn. If you like boats and your desire to learn is strong enough go to the beginning of the thread and start reading it. Many has said that they have learned a lot. Certainly I have learned while doing it

Regarding your questions: Narrow is not slow and wide is not fast. There are narrow boats fast and narrow boats slow. The same with wide boats.

Some narrow boats are in absolute terms faster than beamier boats but to be faster they need a crew. If both boats are sailed solo then the beamier boat will be faster because it is easier to exploit.

Two different concepts, both modern, both with advantages and disadvantages (there are a lot of discussions about that on the thread).

Regarding safety for offshore sailing that is not also a question that can be defined between narrow and beamy boats. I would say however that in what regards modern light boars and smaller sizes, if less than 36ft, a well designed beamy boat can be more seaworthy than a much narrow boat of the same size simply because it is possible to have an overall bigger stability. But mind you that I am talking about possibilities, in reality each boat is a case and has to be looked and analyzed individually.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*On Design*



robelz said:


> Wide (and flat)
> - is slow in low winds
> - is slower upwind (and usually isn't able to point as high as narrow boats)
> - able to plan downwind (and then way faster)
> - is more stable in what regards heel
> - has more space inside
> 
> Narrow
> - is less harsh in wave movement
> - has less wetted surface and therefore faster in the light
> - points higher and faster
> - heels a lot
> 
> If you consider ocean traveling with the tradewinds (most of the time downwind) and do not care of a light and simple interior, the wide french performance-cruisers are your choice. If you are going mainly upwind and looking for a traditional wodden interior you might look for a more traditional boat.
> 
> In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing...


I agree with most but big generalization like that are dangerous. For instance a narrower hull shape like the one of a VOR 65 is able to go faster planing downwind than an Open60, even if they had 65ft. The same with many other boats. Planing downwind has mostly to do with lightness and shape of the hull. The difference is that while on a narrower boat you will have to have a crew to have it in perfect balance, a beamy boat (Open 60 type) is much more forgiving, so forgiving that it can do that on autopilot, but it also has more drag and is therefore slower.

Of course, you are talking about boats with similar weight but it is convenient to point that as well that the wet surface is mostly a consequence of weight (and design of keel and rudder).

Also to point out that the situation were narrow boats are more effective is upwind with considerable sized waves. You are right when saying that normally a narrower boat can be faster in light wind but that difference can be pretty marginal and when the beamier boat is considerably lighter (and that happens many times) it is not always the case. Going upwind with considerable sized waves is where narrow boats really have a big advantage, even heavier ones due to wave drag that is much bigger in a beamy boat than in a narrow one.

Also in what regards Bavaria and Oceanis series (or any other main market boat) I do not agree that they are for living, since they sail pretty well, as well as in most cases older performance cruisers, but I agree that on their design program, living, interior space and cost have a bigger influence on the design criteria.

Regarding fast performance narrow boats, more than to the French performance cruisers I would look for the Danish, American or Italian ones, boats like the J 1boats, Luffe, Xp or NM yachts.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Jaramaz said:


> This I do not agree with. Sweeping generalizations, as I see it. Robelz view is the rather old fashion view that many "old salts" (who owns narrow boats) use to claim.
> 
> Any meaningful comparision must have some common ground, point of reference. Otherwise one compares apples with bananas.
> 
> My personal experience defies RobelZ statements:
> My boat is about the size of 12 m x 4 m, quite fat then. In the area we are sailing there are many long and narrow boats, as Safir, Smaragd, Wasa 55, Omega 42 and so on. In light winds we are usually faster, maybe with an exception for light downwinds. We usually can point higher, still go faster than the narrow ones (a bit of a chock for the Safirs, I can tell you, these are famous for very high pointing ability).
> When the wind increase, speeds start to approach hull speed, then the longest waterline usually dominates, as expected.
> 
> What regards heeling stability, one usually talks about
> - initial stability
> - final stability
> 
> Initial stability is stems mainly from form stability, ie the shape of the boat where a fat boat has an advantage. On the other hand, many narrow boats are more or less intended to sail heeling, and has often a pronounced final stability, which is not as pronounced on a fat boat. Fat boats are often intended to be sailed with just a minor heeling.
> 
> The statement is often used in the debate in one or the other form, usually naming some mass produced boats (but I have heard it about many other boats as HR elder generations, Vindö, and so on).
> It is of course incorrect. In the case of Bavaria and Bene, they have both models that are fast and can compete with many others, both manufacturer also produces slower boats.
> 
> /J


yes I agree regarding wide generalization but I believe that what Robelz said implied boats with the same weight.

What is your boat?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo, The Jeanneau has a base price of 120K US$. So if the Bavaria is teh same, I am sure some of the lack of difference is getting the boat transported from Germany to to the US shores. From that standpoint, the 349 is the better deal $$ wise here. 

I am sure I would end up at about 150-170, as I would probably add the performance pkg to name a few things, along with some electronics, initial epoxy coat the bottom and bottom paint. Then some of the dealers add things like a commission kit, Anchor, fenders, pfds etc. 

Marty


----------



## Jaramaz

PCP said:


> yes I agree regarding wide generalization but I believe that what Robelz said implied boats with the same weight.
> 
> Paulo


No, Robelz did not sate anything about the weight. We all know, one can use may parameters for boats, none will capture all important aspects.

Even if we assume weight, the generalizations have not sufficient basis: It is well known that narrow boats have to have more lead as they have less form stability (which in itself is a generalization, agreed).

Narrow boats have their charm, without any question. I have had several . Fat boats have other charms.

But I do not see the need for sweeping generalizations, looking down at this or that brand. We all make our choises, most often these are comprimizes.

/J


----------



## PCP

Jaramaz said:


> No, Robelz did not sate anything about the weight. We all know, one can use may parameters for boats, none will capture all important aspects.
> 
> Even if we assume weight, the generalizations have not sufficient basis: It is well known that narrow boats have to have more lead as they have less form stability (which in itself is a generalization, agreed).
> 
> Narrow boats have their charm, without any question. I have had several . Fat boats have other charms.
> 
> But I do not see the need for sweeping generalizations, looking down at this or that brand. We all make our choises, most often these are comprimizes.
> 
> /J


I think you are being too harsh with Robelz's post. I implied he was talking about boats with the same weight and as a generic generalization it does not seemed bad to me.

Yes, we can say that generically a narrow boat needs more ballast or more draft or a much more efficient keel to compensate the superior stability given by the hull form stability of a beamier boat, if both boats have about the same displacement and speed.

For understanding your comments and since you have given your boat as a reference it is useful to know what boat you sail. What is your boat?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Alliage yachts*

Long go the days where Alliage were one of my preferred aluminum 41ft sailboat. The brand had abandoned the smaller cruising market and today his smaller boat has 45fts but the really are pointing tho bigger models.

They have two ranges, one with non ballasted centerboarders (like OVNI; Boreal or Allures) and another one that they call Azzuro, with a lifting keel. All the boats are beautiful and well designed by Berret Racoupeau, kind of "chic" voyage boat, but not less effective. I still like them a lot even if regret they finish making smaller boats:

Who would say this baby has already 14 year's old:



The 41 had already a two rudder set up.

Have a look at the Alliage 53






and to their two lines (very nice boats):

Azzuro 53 Voiliers De Voyage Aluminium De La Gamme Azzuro

Today they belong to the Alubat group, the ones that make OVNI and its their "luxury" brand. These ones are supposed to be "yachts" already while the OVNI are just sailboats


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> I think you are being too harsh with Robelz's post. I implied he was talking about boats with the same weight and as a generic generalization it does not seemed that bad to me.
> 
> Yes, we can say that generically a narrow boat needs more ballast or more draft or a much more efficient keel to compensate the superior stability given by the hull form stability of a beamier boat, if both boats have about the same displacement and speed.
> 
> For understanding your comments and since you have given your boat as a reference it is useful to know what boat you sail. What is your boat?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I could have written a book with 300 pages but wanted to give a short overview. Of course a lighter boat will in most times be faster than a heavier boat, a racer should poind higher than a cruiser, a carbon/kevlar sail will be more effective in any regards than one made of dacron...

Taken into consideration he asked for a passagemaker I think I got the most important points.


----------



## PCP

*New 24 hours solo sailing record*

and it goes for a sailor on its 1st year on multihull at top level, Armel Le Cléac'h on Banque Populaire with an average of 28.2K and 677nm.

Second record on a row. Here on the last one, the Med record:






Let see if he can beat also the record of the "Route de la Découverte"


----------



## PCP

*Thomas Coville circumnavigation record attempt*

And Coville keeps pushing trying to recover the delay. Can imagine going like this for weeks?





Sodebo - Tour du Monde 2014: Ambiance "humide... _por sodebo-voile_


----------



## Osprey 26

Thank you all who put effort and explained. Every bit helped.
Probably got confused by watching lot of videos, and not sailing enough on different type sailboats. Thanks again.


----------



## PCP

*Salona 33 IBC*

One of the most beautiful boats on Dusseldorf was a small one, a Salona 33IBC, the top cruising-racing version of Salona and racing is only because the boat can do very well in ORC because the interior exudes class and certainly will be very comfortable for cruising (2 cabin version with a big and deep cockpit locker).

Never had saw a IBC version and I have to say that I was impressed more than with the performance aspects with the quality of finish: Almost luxurious.

The boat comes normally with a torpedo keel but on its top performance version it has a keel for IRC and another one to ORC. It seems that this strange one (it is just a big foil) is maximized for IRC. The keel is a composite one, with a steel structure and the bottom in lead. It was designed by Ker so I am sure it is efficient. It is an epoxy vacuum infused hull with carbon spars, carbon bulkheads and lots of carbon parts.

They don't give the weight of the IBC version but it will be certainly several hundreds kg lighter than the standard version that weights 4950kg.

And some great news regarding US sailors: Salona is back to the US. I think it was Edward that had already posted about that, well he was right and it seems that the new importer is trying hard since on the Miami boat show will be 3 boats. The 33, a 44 and most of all a 38 IBC version. Probably that means that some of those boats, specially the IBC version are already sold and as it is a top version probably it will be raced. I hope it goes to the hands of a good team. That boat had already showed a lot of potential.


----------



## opc11

*Re: The thread*



PCP said:


> This thread is becoming too big and the search engine is pretty useless. For many this is a thread where sailors go back looking for references, opinions and facts about boats. For make it more useful I decided to take away irrelevantl posts from it.
> 
> I have already started deleting some of mine and I talked with Faster to see if he could help because I could delete my posts but i cannot delete other posts posted by other members related with the ones I am deleting. So if nobody opposes I will ask Faster to delete irrelevant posts to make the content of the thread more dense and easy to search.


Paulo, I'm busy catching up as you can tell but I would suggest separating the racing/rally discussions into a different thread and you might consider putting the prototype/experimental's into the race thread or another thread. just a thought.

I'm quite grateful for the contributions made by you and so many others.

ps- REALLY like that Garcia Exploration 45. Wonder what the price tag on that is. Anyone know? ....wish they came out with one 4-5ft smaller too.


----------



## robelz

I hated this Ker-keel: Not efficient, but fast to its rating. That is exactly what I hate in rating systems..


----------



## PCP

*Re: The thread*



opc11 said:


> Paulo, I'm busy catching up as you can tell but I would suggest separating the racing/rally discussions into a different thread and you might consider putting the prototype/experimental's into the race thread or another thread. just a thought.
> 
> I'm quite grateful for the contributions made by you and so many others.
> 
> ps- REALLY like that Garcia Exploration 45. Wonder what the price tag on that is. Anyone know? ....wish they came out with one 4-5ft smaller too.


I tried to put titles in all posts to make it easy the search on the thread search engine but making several posts is just too much work.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> I hated this Ker-keel: Not efficient, but fast to its rating. That is exactly what I hate in rating systems..


I agree. The good thing is that is not the standard keel that is the more efficient one and gives more RM, an elongated torpedo one. It is not the boat that is wrong but the ratting system.

It is ridiculous to have three different keels, one for IRC, other for ORCI and another for offshore races or general uses as it is stupid that the more efficient one is the standard one and not the racing ones

It is not the only boat with several keels. top racers have to have them. It happens the same with the Archambault or JPK: several keels, each one for a given rating system and on the A boats it is even worse since the standard keel is not the torpedo one but one without bulb, like the one on that Salona.

They talked into merging the two rating systems but the installed interests seem too big. ORCI has made steps in the right direction, working with the main racing NA and contrary to IRC is an open formula.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sirius 40DS*

The Sirius started to be a small German family shipyard (it still is) that designed and built their own boats. The finish and built was truly outstanding as well as the interior concepts but the hulls were not designed by a top Na and that showed in performance. All that changed some years ago and now they work with Marc-Oliver von Ahlen, a talented NA that we had spoken here about the new SQ25, posted by Robelz, one of the most interesting pocket cruisers around.

Yachtdesign v.Ahlen

Now the boats have not only incredibly interiors as they sail well, offering all possible keel configurations.

It is not only me that find them fantastic. The press said about the 35DS:

*"Is this the best boat ever built?" "Perfection in 35 feet." "&#8230;most impressive cruiser we've ever tested." "I am convinced that I have met the perfect cruiser." "&#8230;one of the most painstakingly designed and built semi-custom yachts in the world&#8230;" "The deck saloon principle knows no better exponent." "It's the highest score we've ever awarded, by some distance, and it reflects the wealth of ideas, craftsmanship and pride built into this extraordinary yacht .... As a custom-built, luxury cruising yacht, you'd struggle to match her. 93 out of 100 Points!"
"... 5-star ambience." "... a miracle of space." "The central cabin&#8230; if I could give 11/10 scores, I would." "the most salubrious heads we've ever seen&#8230; looks like it belongs in the "The Ritz"." "&#8230;as individual and exiting as a mega yacht."*

Before you jump to buy one let me tell you that the price is accordingly with the quality and that means very high They sell boats to everywhere in the world, to the ones that want a small boat but maximum comfort and build quality and have the money for it.

Their 38 was the only one in the line still "in house" designed and it is going to re replaced by a 40ft designed by Marc-Oliver. It seems that this one will even have a better performance since it has a "performance" version. When I am old enough I want one of these, that's for sure

The dimensions:

LOA 11.99 m....LWL 11.17 m.....Beam (Hull) 4.00 m ..Draft 2.10/2.00 m/ 1.75m / 1.50 m m....Twin keel 1.40 m....Swing keel 1.00 - 2.40m

Ballast approx. 3.40 t ....Weight approx.10.5/11.60 t.....Mast height above water 18.50 m

Mainsail 45.3 m2...Self-tacking jib.. 32.2 m2...Genoa I 60.4 m2 Spi 140.0 m2....Furling Gennaker 95.0 m2..Furling Drifter 75.0 m2

Performance rigg with 20% more sail area.

Normally they have a cutter rig so they will carry the genoa and the jib at all times and that means on the performance version an upwind sail area of about 126m2 and that for 10.5T is not bad, I would say that is going to be a pretty fast cruiser, if one chose the performance version. Have a look:











Just to have a feeling about what I am talking about have a look at the 35ds interior and just imagine it a lot bigger.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Cockpit/Saloon | 35 DS Cockpit/Saloon

Sirius-Werft Plön | Saloon | 35 DS Saloon

Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin/Head/Shower | 35 DS Owner´s cabin/Head/Shower

Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin/Head | 35 DS Forecabin/Head

Sirius-Werft Plön | Technic Room | 35 DS Technic Room


----------



## robelz

What is a drifter? Something like a Code0?


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> It is not the only boat with several keels. top racers have to have them. It happens the same with the Archambault or JPK: several keels, each one for a given rating system and on the A boats it is even worse since the standard keel is not the torpedo one but one without bulb, like the one on that Salona.


I am pretty sure there isn't even a bulb-option for the A35. Astounding that the A35 anyway is able to hold the JPK 1010's speed...


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> What is a drifter? Something like a Code0?


A Drifter is a lightweight nylon No. 1 genoa and it is mostly a cruising sail while the code 0 was developed for solo racers and it is a bigger sail. They are used for the same range of wind (till 15K) and normally used from 45º to 90 degrees. The drifter polled out can also be used for downwind sailing.



robelz said:


> I am pretty sure there isn't even a bulb-option for the A35. Astounding that the A35 anyway is able to hold the JPK 1010's speed...


Yes there is a torpedo keel. They use it for instance on the Transquadra.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> Yes there is a torpedo keel. They use it for instance on the Transquadra.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Sure? I neither find this option on the manufacturer's site nor at any dealer's...


----------



## robelz

The 3 packages for the Archie A13 are defined:

IRC Racer pack

Good finish grade for bulkheads, hull and deck in the square
Table
Seatbacks
Chart house furniture
Hull portholes
Fridge

IRC Comfort Racer pack

IRC Racer pack
Wood finish and spots in the square
Oven
Kitchen Cupboard

Cruising Pack on demand

IRC Comfort Racer pack
Deck porthole
Shower, Hot water
Full settings for three cabins, including beds and furniture
Full size kitchen on starboard side
Additional seat between kitchen and kitchen


----------



## olianta

PCP said:


> A Drifter is a lightweight nylon No. 1 genoa and it is mostly a cruising sail while the code 0 was developed for solo racers and it is a bigger sail. They are used for the same range of wind (till 15K) and normally used from 45º to 90 degrees. The drifter polled out can also be used for downwind sailing.


Hi Paulo, 
I even think the angle is wider than 90. Look at this promotional video of North Sails. 




I tried a furling Code 1 by Elvstrom on the Luffe 37 in very light wind conditions and it was amazingly efficient upwind. I did not try it poled out but like you Oluf said this can be done. I ordered one for my Luffe which will be ready in a couple of months or earlier. I skipped the spinnaker, since most of the time I will sail solo and am sceptical of my ability to handle it myself together with the Amin and the steering on that kind of boat.

Regards

Rumen


----------



## PCP

olianta said:


> PCP said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Drifter is a lightweight nylon No. 1 genoa and it is mostly a cruising sail while the code 0 was developed for solo racers and it is a bigger sail. They are used for the same range of wind (till 15K) and normally used from 45º to 90 degrees. The drifter polled out can also be used for downwind sailing.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Paulo,
> I even think the angle is wider than 90. Look at this promotional video of North Sails.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tried a furling Code 1 by Elvstrom on the Luffe 37 in very light wind conditions and it was amazingly efficient upwind. I did not try it poled out but like you Oluf said this can be done. I ordered one for my Luffe which will be ready in a couple of months or earlier. I skipped the spinnaker, since most of the time I will sail solo and am sceptical of my ability to handle it myself together with the Amin and the steering on that kind of boat.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rumen
Click to expand...

Hi, nice to hear from you...and I want to see photos of your new boat and I believe I will not be the only one.

Those angles are only the ones were the sail has better efficiency. I had a Code 0 and it was a fantastic sail for light wind. I don't know what is the sail configuration you are going to use and I don't know if a code 0 would not be more useful than a code1, maybe. Ask Oluf, he will know.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

PCP said:


> Hi, nice to hear from you...and I want to see photos of your new boat and I believe I will not be the only one.
> I don't know what is the sail configuration you are going to use and I don't know if a code 0 would not be more useful than a code1, maybe. Ask Oluf, he will know.
> 
> Regards
> 
> The boat is not ready yet. Hull and deck have been molded by means of vacuum infused technology with epoxy and balsa core. Here is the link: The Switch to Closed Molding - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine
> I was at the boat yard in late November and talked to one of the workers. He said the stiffness is much better than that of previous GRP polyester hand laid hulls and decks.*
> Because I wanted a selftacking jib in order not to undersize it a lot, Oluf moved the mast back a little and now the total sail plan is 49 sq.m. (25 main and 24 jib) instead of the standard 51 sq.m. (26 main and 25 overlapping jib), thus the balance remains the same. Besides, after weighing the pros against the price increase, I opted for a carbon fibre mast and boom instead of the standard aluminium as per my initial order. The manufacturer is Southern Spars. Well, I hope I will save money from other non-boat related things.
> Regards
> Rumen


----------



## olianta

Paulo, Sorry, the first part of my previous post is within your quote.


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1600*

Unbelievable, Rm wants to make yachts A brand that for many years made only small boats (the 1200 has not many years) goes for the big ones. I hope that, like many, it will not abandon its origins and the small cruisers.

And for now, what I can say is that the 1600 looks like a yacht...and a nice one


----------



## Faster

PCP said:


> That's easy to modify. Click in edit and put this
> 
> at the end of my quote, after the word "sailing".
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I beat him to it


----------



## PCP

*Class 9.50*

I believe I never talked here about this class, that till now has been a bit of a flop even if the boats are very interesting and besides being a very interesting platform for a performance cruiser.

*"Since 2008, there are some boats on the water that are not Mini 650, that are smaller than 40class racers, the Class 9.50.

The class was born in 2007. The first boats were launched quickly, the 950 Akilaria designed by Marc Lombard and built by the shipyard "Mc Tec", the Tip Top 950 designed by Sam Manuard and built by "Naval Force 3" and finished by Sails All Purpose, the St Mandrier and 950 Fox designed by Charles Bertrand.

After years of sailing and testing, the 950 class racers are unanimously considered a lively and very seaworthy boat, with maximum fun for a minimum budget.

Today, CLASSE950 has 14 boats ready to race, 3 boats will be launched soon."*

Classe 9.50

But the class never really took off and the races are mostly IRC races or races with the minis. Don't know why the class never picked up and certainly these are not boats competitive in IRC races. These are solo racers designed for transats and downwind sailing but they don't have any transat on their calendar. Why not make them part of the mini transat as a separated class?

Anyway an interesting boat, far more easy to sail than a class 40, faster and more seaworthy than a mini racer. Some movies:


----------



## PCP

*New, New 24 hours absolute solo sailing record*



PCP said:


> and it goes for a sailor on its 1st year on multihull at top level, Armel Le Cléac'h on Banque Populaire with an average of 28.2K and 677nm.
> 
> ...


and again, Le Cléac'h unstoppable, beat his brand new 24 hour absolute solo record doing 682 nautical miles in 24 hours with an average of 28.4k. Incredible!!!!! What a bullet!!.


----------



## robelz

Lemonchois capsized with "Prince de Bretagne" so Joyon will keep his record... Meanwhile Coville parks in the doldrums and is 400 miles behind the record.


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Lemonchois capsized with "Prince de Bretagne" so Joyon will keep his record... Meanwhile Coville parks in the doldrums and is 400 miles behind the record.


*"On Monday afternoon, at precisely 3:57pm, Lionel Lemonchois manually triggered the distress beacon of his 80-foot maxi trimaran Prince de Bretagne.

He had started his 11th day at sea, trying to break the Mauricienne record, from Port-Louis in Brittany to Port-Louis, the capital of Mauritius. When the beacon was triggered the trimaran was approximately 800 miles off the Brazilian coast, at the latitude of Rio de Janeiro, sailing under a southeasterly breeze between 16 and 18 knots.

Following the activation of the emergency beacon, the Prince de Bretagne shore crew in France was unable to get in contact with Lemonchois. However, early in the evening, the French sailor called his team to inform them that the trimaran had capsized. He was sound and safe inside the boat's central hull but was forced to to cut her rigging."*

Prince de Bretagne trimaran capsized; Lionel Lemonchois safe inside central hull | VSail.info

It scares the hell out of me to think how a solo sailor can not only dominate a monster like that 80ft trimaran as well as punch it to a record. It seems that goes not without risks. I know that this frontier land, pushing the limits to sail bigger and faster as a huge positive reflex on the development of systems that make sail and boat control easier, systems that have an almost direct application on cruising boats but I wonder till where they will go?



I suspect that it was not the record itself that led him to push too much but the successive 24 hours records from Armel on Banque Populaire. Probably he was trying for the 24 hours solo absolute record and that is really going on the limit...and with a monster like that is playing at Russian roulette. The wind was only 18k so he should wave full sails when the boat capsized. That can also indicate a technical failure or problem with the boat.

A French support team is organizing a towing operation from Brasil. It is going to take time but Lemonchois, except for an hurt hand, is safe is in the central hull and has plenty of food and water.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Sly 43*

We had already talked about the boat, now a video. Love the boat, hate the color


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Class 9.50*



PCP said:


> ...
> Classe 9.50
> 
> But the class never really took off and the races are mostly IRC races or races with the minis. Don't know why the class never picked up ...


if this is the official site, there is no wonder that it never picked up...
a .com domain and only available in french?
come on - they cannot be serious or do the french really still think, that french is an international language everybody HAS to speak?


----------



## olianta

Hi all,
What is your opinion of these rectangular portholes in the hull (I refer to the Sly 43 video). They look trendy from outside but do they not compromise hull stiffness and thickness? Are they not susceptible to outside damage from docks or other boat hulls despite fenders. I have not been inside such a boat but IMHO there is not much gain in light from such portholes near the water or may be someone will enjoy looking the water from the leeward side.
Regards
Rumen


----------



## JimMcGee

OK, so this isn't your typical daysailer but I was really taken with some of the ideas in this boat. Now all I need is a winning lottery ticket...

Sizzler: Flush-Deck Speedster

Boating Lone Wolf


----------



## PCP

*Sizzler Speedster*



JimMcGee said:


> OK, so this isn't your typical daysailer but I was really taken with some of the ideas in this boat. Now all I need is a winning lottery ticket...
> ...
> 
> Boating Lone Wolf


It looks very well, not very different in spirit from some Italian big daysailers an built for the same purpose: the simple pleasure of sailing. Being designed by a Portuguese Na, I am pretty sure it sails well. Seriously, Tony Castro is a great NA and I am sure the boat is not only beautiful as it is very fast.

I like everything except the ridiculous amount of space taken by the automatic devices to make the boat button sailing. The boats has not obviously the space for those systems that require a bigger yacht, but as the client as always reason and since it was what he wanted. Even so it is a crime regarding that beautiful interior:













Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Class 9.50*



capt vimes said:


> if this is the official site, there is no wonder that it never picked up...
> a .com domain and only available in french?
> come on - they cannot be serious or do the french really still think, that french is an international language everybody HAS to speak?


Yes, the French are a bit like that. Austrians too. I remember that on the Belvedere museum, one of the best in the world and in a beautiful setting, 10 years ago they had only information about the paintings and ark work in German.

Now at least on the site they have it in English too. I hope they have already information in English near the paintings even if I doubt it, at least looking at the paintings on the site photo I can only see nearby information on one language: German.

Anyway to all that visit Vienna don't miss it. It is a gem.

Museum und Schloss Belvedere Österreich | Museum und Schloss Belvedere Österreich

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Hull ports*



olianta said:


> Hi all,
> What is your opinion of these rectangular portholes in the hull (I refer to the Sly 43 video). They look trendy from outside but do they not compromise hull stiffness and thickness? Are they not susceptible to outside damage from docks or other boat hulls despite fenders. I have not been inside such a boat but IMHO there is not much gain in light from such portholes near the water or may be someone will enjoy looking the water from the leeward side.
> Regards
> Rumen


Yes the gain in virtual space and scenery, not to mention light is huge. They call them inserts and they are not just a piece of plastic but normally a block with air inside. They have more to do with airplane "widows" than anything else. They started to be used in fast motorboats (much bigger than in sailboats) and the stress a hull of a fast motorboat can take is bigger than the one of a sailboat.

Today even some cruiser racers, more used to race than cruise use them. I don't know how they work regarding hull strength but obviously they can be used if the the hull is already designed to include them without great structural disadvantage otherwise very fast performance boats like the Sly 43, or performance cruisers used for racing would not be using them.

I am absolutely sure that the NA that design those boats know what they are doing, since almost all boats are using them and many of them are designed by some of the best NA in the world.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

Thanks Paulo!
I believe they are very well engineered (since I have seen them on more expensive brands) and may be not less stiffer than the fibreglass hull that would not make any difference in the event of an impact with something stiffer than both of them. If they are scratched from outside unlike fibreglass it would not be possible to repair those inserts. If side docked you need to adjust fenders not to cover and potentially scratch them. But I am also sure that those inserts will add additional cost without many light benefits and you need to add blinders from inside.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## JimMcGee

*Re: Sizzler Speedster*



PCP said:


> I like everything except the ridiculous amount of space taken by the automatic devices to make the boat button sailing. The boats has not obviously the space for those systems that require a bigger yacht, but as the client as always reason and since it was what he wanted. Even so it is a crime regarding that beautiful interior:


Paulo I think the whole idea was to show off the polished and detailed hydraulics the way a hot rod shows off its engine.

Still I agree it's wasted space. It would have been straightforward to design a master stateroom with a removable interior around the hydraulics.

I'm taken with the look of the boat, that she's specifically designed to be singlehanded easily, and that she's designed to be so quick and responsive under sail. The design brief was for a 60' laser! 

Would love to get some time aboard her.



PCP said:


>


----------



## olianta

*Re: Sizzler Speedster*



JimMcGee said:


> Paulo I think the whole idea was to show off the polished and detailed hydraulics the way a hot rod shows off its engine.
> 
> Still I agree it's wasted space. It would have been straightforward to design a master stateroom with a removable interior around the hydraulics.
> 
> .


And there are no inserts in the hull to distract you from the nice view inside!

P.S. JimMcGee, I liked very much that quotation from "The sea and the wind that blows".

Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*52 Super series Key West regatta*

Great sailing in Key west. These series lost a lot regarding the previous Audi Med cup. Worst coverage, less teams, less countries, less TV exposure, less money and less interest in what regards the secondary races (40 series) that where many times so spectacular as the main races.

Even so the last day with lots of wind provided great sailing:











The secondary races:


----------



## olianta

*Re: 52 Super series Key West regatta*



PCP said:


> Great sailing in Key west. These series lost a lot regarding the previous Audi Med cup. Worst coverage, less teams, less countries, less TV exposure, less money and less interest in what regards the secondary races (40 series) that where many times so spectacular as the main races.
> 
> Even so the last day with lots of wind provided great sailing:


It's an amazing this video. I am not sure whether I got properly what happened so correct me if I am wrong since I have no idea about racing. The guys were doing fine down wind with the gennaker, the helmsman doing the steering and the main sheet traveller, the next two guys forward were handling the gennaker sheet and the forth guy in the front was navigating and may be in charge of the vang sheet. At one point they sheeted hard on the wind in order to avoid a boat in trouble and this turned to a broach where they heeled excessively, sunk the leeward rail and blew the gennaker in the water. It took wuite a time to resume trim but not sure whether everything was finally OK. Do I miss something?
Regards
Rumen


----------



## capt vimes

i hope you have not mentioned it, but Vismaramarine.it have some very nice boats - like this 47 fast cruiser... and it is relatively light too with only 10.25 t...
V47 Fast Cruiser








although the interior looks a little sterile to me...


----------



## Edward3

*Re: 52 Super series Key West regatta*

Planing vs. Displacement mode.



olianta said:


> It's an amazing this video. I am not sure whether I got properly what happened so correct me if I am wrong since I have no idea about racing. The guys were doing fine down wind with the gennaker, the helmsman doing the steering and the main sheet traveller, the next two guys forward were handling the gennaker sheet and the forth guy in the front was navigating and may be in charge of the vang sheet. At one point they sheeted hard on the wind in order to avoid a boat in trouble and this turned to a broach where they heeled excessively, sunk the leeward rail and blew the gennaker in the water. It took wuite a time to resume trim but not sure whether everything was finally OK. Do I miss something?
> Regards
> Rumen


----------



## Edward3

*Re: 52 Super series Key West regatta*

I missed the end where a guy jibed to leeward which probably made them sail to high in a gust... then shrimping


----------



## PCP

*Vismara yachts*



capt vimes said:


> i hope you have not mentioned it, but ..have some very nice boats - like this 47 fast cruiser... and it is relatively light too with only 10.25 t..although the interior looks a little sterile to me...
> ...


Yes, Vismara has some great yachts. We talked about the little one the 34 and I think I had posted something about the bigger ones. The big one is the 80ft, already with some years:






the other recent boats are a 50 Hybrid:






and the V47 that you posted that is a very beautiful and fast boat:






But I confess the one I like more is the little 34Ds with his inverted bow and aggressive look:









Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: 52 Super series Key West regatta*



olianta said:


> It's an amazing this video. I am not sure whether I got properly what happened so correct me if I am wrong since I have no idea about racing. The guys were doing fine down wind with the gennaker, the helmsman doing the steering and the main sheet traveller, the next two guys forward were handling the gennaker sheet and the forth guy in the front was navigating and may be in charge of the vang sheet. At one point they sheeted hard on the wind in order to avoid a boat in trouble and this turned to a broach where they heeled excessively, sunk the leeward rail and blew the gennaker in the water. It took wuite a time to resume trim but not sure whether everything was finally OK. Do I miss something?
> Regards
> Rumen


Edward is right. They had to change course to avoid a boat, they went to high...and lost control.

Please when you quote don't quote the videos or the photos. I have some problems with the available band in this thread

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Azuree 46 and Dusselforf boat show.*

We have already looked here at the Azuree 46. The boat is beautiful, has great dimensions that make it not only fast as seaworthy but sometimes you get disappointed when you see the real thing. Photos can be misleading...but not on this case. The boat has a good quality interior, not top but with a similar quality of Dehler or Dufour and a great design. It fells great inside, cozy and with lots of space. We even forget that we are inside a performance cruiser. Great boat, great design.






and I have a big new about Azuree: They have also a 40 with just some few years, one that I like the program but not much the design neither the reserve stability. I am a bit picky about that in what regards a cruising boat. A pity because the boat is a sort of a Pogo 12.50 with a good interior, not so light not so fast but fast enough for me taking into account the interior comfort.

Well the big new is that they are not stupid they and have eyes and good taste. They are going to ditch the boat out and asked Humphreys (the designer of the 46 and Elan 400) to design them a brand new 40 along the same principle: Light, based on a 40class hull and with a good and comfortable interior. Given what he accomplished on the 46 I cannot wait to see the result.

If you are in the market for a brand new 40 performance cruiser and like boats based on Open boats, fast and with a comfortable interior, I would wait some months to see what is going to come out from Humphreys hands. Azuree have one of the best quality/price relation on the market and the Azuree 46 is beautiful, so....


----------



## PCP

*250 000 at Dusseldorf boat show.*

Well, I was one of them but even so 249 999 is a lot of people or should I say sailors? They have about half sail boats half motor boats but the people on the sailboat pavilions is much more than in any other sector, so I am pretty sure that the majority are sailors.

They come from all over Europe and even Russia (saw several). Meet a nice couple with an Halberg Rassy looking for something faster. They had come from England just to visit a Dufour 410. It is really impressive the quantity of foreign languages you can hear. Meet some Portuguese too.


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Vismara yachts*



PCP said:


> ...
> the other recent boats are a 50 Hybrid:
> 
> But I confess the one I like more is the little 34Ds with his inverted bow and aggressive look:


i personally do not like the 34 DS that much, but the hybrid 50 the more... 
a very unusual design with this big stateroom aft and thus no real cockpit... she has an induction stove instead of the propane burners... 
i really do not know if i could appreciate her interior though... and the mast rolling main... 
i stumbled across vismara by sheer accident - they are way out of my budget, although the boats are beautiful and very performance oriented... very light with in most cases excessive draft.


----------



## olianta

*Re: 52 Super series Key West regatta*



PCP said:


> Edward is right. They had to change course to avoid a boat, they went to high...and lost control.
> Paulo


That's what I said.

"Please when you quote don't quote the videos or the photos. I have some problems with the available band in this thread"
Paulo

Sorry,
I will correct that.


----------



## olianta

*Re: Vismara yachts*



PCP said:


> Yes, Vismara has some great yachts. We talked about the little one the 34 ......
> Regards
> Paulo


In the brokerage section of their site there is lone 34 named Asell, lying in Pisa and priced at €60000. The boat is 10 years old and has been participating in many races, probably abused a lot.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## robelz

*Re: 250 000 at Dusseldorf boat show.*



PCP said:


> Well, I was one of them but even so 249 999 is a lot of people or should I say sailors? They have about half sail boats half motor boats but the people on the sailboat pavilions is much more than in any other sector, so I am pretty sure that the majority are sailors.
> 
> They come from all over Europe and even Russia (saw several). Meet a nice couple with an Halberg Rassy looking for something faster. They had come from England just to visit a Dufour 410. It is really impressive the quantity of foreign languages you can hear. Meet some Portuguese too.


I only met people discussing why a First 35 is more expensive than an Oceanis 34 even if the Oceanis has a much better interior...


----------



## olianta

*Re: 250 000 at Dusseldorf boat show.*



PCP said:


> Meet a nice couple with an Halberg Rassy looking for something faster. They had come from England just to visit a Dufour 410


I can't believe why one is going to downgrade from Halberg Rassy to Dufour. There are fast boats in the same quality league of Halberg Rassy.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Why performance boats are ex+ensive.*



robelz said:


> I only met people discussing why a First 35 is more expensive than an Oceanis 34 even if the Oceanis has a much better interior...


Yes, many years ago that made me confusion too. In fact it takes some knowledge to know that a better interior is much more cheap to build than to buy bigger and more winches, bigger and better mast, bigger and better sails and all quality rigging that is needed on a performance boat. Performance boats have also a superior stability and are normally narrower and that means a bigger B/D ratio and a stronger hull and structure to take the efforts.

All this put together is what explains why a First 35 (a great boat) is substantially more expensive than an Oceanis 34. The Oceanis 34 is built to have a nice interior and be an inexpensive sailboat that sails well. The first 35 is built to be as inexpensive as possible, having a good cruising interior and to sail very well.

The difference between to sail well and to sail very well is always a expensive one and the difference between sailing very well and sailing outstandingly well is even more expensive

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Vismara 34*



olianta said:


> In the brokerage section of their site there is lone 34 named Asell, lying in Pisa and priced at €60000. The boat is 10 years old and has been participating in many races, probably abused a lot.
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


Rumen, that boat has nothing to do with the boat I had posted that is a brand new design, or better the only thing ion common is that both were designed by Vismara and gave 34ft

http://www.vismaramarine.it/images/usato_vismara/v34_asell_ita.pdf


----------



## robelz

*Re: 250 000 at Dusseldorf boat show.*



olianta said:


> I can't believe why one is going to downgrade from Halberg Rassy to Dufour. There are fast boats in the same quality league of Halberg Rassy.
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


The question is: Is the quality worth the money? I would never again spend so much money in expensive wood instead of a perfect sail wardrobe and high-tech electronics... I simply do not need it, it doesn't even satisfy me...

PS: I co-own a HR42...


----------



## robelz

*Re: Vismara 34*



PCP said:


> Rumen, that boat has nothing to do with the boat I had posted that is a brand new design, or better the only thing ion common is that both were designed by Vismara and gave 34ft
> 
> http://www.vismaramarine.it/images/usato_vismara/v34_asell_ita.pdf


I love the Brusafer on the first sight, on the second look it is a litte bit weird, ordered by a very rich man with lots of weird ideas (a strong focus on Hifi sound and so on)...


----------



## PCP

*Italian style yachts*



capt vimes said:


> i personally do not like the 34 DS that much, but the hybrid 50 the more...
> a very unusual design with this big stateroom aft and thus no real cockpit... she has an induction stove instead of the propane burners...
> i really do not know if i could appreciate her interior though... and the mast rolling main...
> i stumbled across vismara by sheer accident - they are way out of my budget, although the boats are beautiful and very performance oriented... very light with in most cases excessive draft.


They are one of the several Italian brands that have been posted on this thread that make top performance small yachts. Have a look back on the thread or look for instance at this ones (that have already been posted):

ICE Yachts srl - Ice Yachts

Mylius Yachts, Barche a vela, Fast Cruiser

ADVANCED - Italian Yachts

http://www.sly-yachts.com/en

B-YACHTS

http://www.solarisyachts.com/

ITALIA YACHTS ? Performance and cruising luxury boats

Fast cruising carbon sailing yacht Aureus XV - The Compact Maxi Yacht

ComarYachts

We have also Wally making big yachts:

Wally // Sail

Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

*Re: 250 000 at Dusseldorf boat show.*



robelz said:


> The question is: Is the quality worth the money? I would never again spend so much money in expensive wood instead of a perfect sail wardrobe and high-tech electronics... I simply do not need it, it doesn't even satisfy me...
> 
> PS: I co-own a HR42...


I didn't mean only the quality of wood. There are more important things that you mentioned in your post regarding the difference between First and Oceanis like hull stiffness due to better materials and technology, and keel material and its attachment, quality and robustness of standing rigging, etc. Running rigging and sails you can always upgrade on any boat. I could ask Oluf to skip all the wood from my boat but didn't because for this type of boat (modern and livable skerry cruiser) the wood outside and inside suits her and adds personality. Besides, I think besides the good looks all that wood on decks and below is functional as well in terms of nonslip and insulation.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## olianta

*Re: Italian style yachts*



PCP said:


> We have also Wally making big yachts:
> 
> Wally // Sail
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


There is a wally nano as well. 36 footer with plumb bow and enormous stern overhang.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Aureus XV*

A new movie about the Aureus. Definitively I would not mind to have one

This is what I am talking about regarding costs: a boat like this, with outstanding sailing performance that can be sailed at the touch of the fingers of a solo sailor, as to cost a lot more than a boat with a similarly luxurious interior but with only a decent sailing performance like an Halberg Rassy or a Najad. In boats, like in cars or even audio, top performance is really expensive.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Vismara 34*



robelz said:


> I love the Brusafer on the first sight, on the second look it is a litte bit weird, ordered by a very rich man with lots of weird ideas (a strong focus on Hifi sound and so on)...


What I love in the boat is the hull design, rig and cockpit layout, not the interior.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Luxury versus good design and modern building techniques.*



olianta said:


> I can't believe why one is going to downgrade from Halberg Rassy to Dufour. There are fast boats in the same quality league of Halberg Rassy.





robelz said:


> The question is: Is the quality worth the money? I would never again spend so much money in expensive wood instead of a perfect sail wardrobe and high-tech electronics... I simply do not need it, it doesn't even satisfy me...
> PS: I co-own a HR42...





olianta said:


> I didn't mean only the quality of wood. There are more important things that you mentioned in your post regarding the difference between First and Oceanis like hull stiffness due to better materials and technology, and keel material and its attachment, quality and robustness of standing rigging, etc. Running rigging and sails you can always upgrade on any boat. &#8230;


Interesting discussion. Rumen I don't think that in what regards sailing the Dufour 410 is a worst boat than the Halberg Rassy 412, in fact it is almost for sure the opposite, including hull stiffness. In fact you have a large choice of options on the Dufour and a top boat will match in hull quality and sail hardware a Halberg Rassy. On Dufour they use top building techniques:

*"To increase performance and structural strength, Dufour Yachts uses cutting-edge techniques in the design and manufacture of their hulls and decks.
Decks, vacuum infusion technology: The resin sheets are impregnated by air suction. This advanced technology, which is widely used in the aeronautics industry, results in the production of a composite material of outstanding mechanical quality. Advantages : Significant structural weight / performance ratio.

Injection technology: Injection moulding consists of bringing resin in a space between two moulds, by injecting it under pressure to reinforce fibre cloths. This complex technique enables all air bubbles to be eliminated and produces a consistent fibre / resin ratio.

Decks are manufactured in one piece, resulting in excellent headroom.
Advantages : Significant gain in weight (better sail rigidity), original quality finish and excellent reliability.

Sandwich hulls, vacuum bonding: The sandwich hull is made up of a set of constituents laminated through pressure and bonding. The type of constituent varies according to the desired effect. Generally speaking, the sandwich hull is made up of a central layer of PVC foam placed between two reinforcements (laminated skin), protected by gelcoat on the exterior surface. Advantages : Better sound proofing, increased mechanical properties, increased longitudinal rigidity of the hull under equal displacement, no absorption humidity due to the use of PVC foam rather than balsa".*

On Halberg- Rassy they say about their building techniques:

*"Hull and Deck: Hand lay-up GRP hull with a vinylester based barrier coat. The hull is insu¬lated above water line with Divinycell PVC-foam against heat and cold. Under the mast support there is a steel beam moulded into the hull stiffener. Strong under floor reinforcements, bonded with composite. &#8230; Deck, coachroof areas and cockpit are of sandwich construction, solid in parts, laminated to the hull."*

It seems to me that the bigger production has allowed Dufour to invest in high tech building techniques that are not yet used by Halberg-Rassy.

Regarding the interior I find the quality of the design way better on the Dufour 410, a bigger and more comfortable living space. Of course the quality of materials in the interior and the finish is superior on the Halberg-Rassy and it is to each one to decide if that deserves the difference in price or even if they prefer the Halberg-Rassy space.

What I said regarding boats needing a stronger and stiffer hull did not refer to Halberg-Rassy or Dufour 410, both non performance cruisers but regarding a comparison between a main market cruiser and a performance one like the Dufour 410 and the Dufour 40e or the Halberg-Rassy 412 and for instance an Arcona 410. The performance boats have bigger rigs, bigger RM for the weight and need to have a stronger hull to take the bigger generated loads.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

*Re: Vismara 34*



PCP said:


> They are one of the several Italian brands that have been posted on this thread that make top performance small yachts. Have a look back on the thread or look for instance at this ones (that have already been posted):
> 
> ICE Yachts srl - Ice Yachts
> 
> Mylius Yachts, Barche a vela, Fast Cruiser
> 
> ADVANCED - Italian Yachts
> 
> Sly Sailing Yachts
> 
> B-YACHTS
> 
> Solaris by Serigi
> 
> ITALIA YACHTS ? Performance and cruising luxury boats
> 
> Fast cruising carbon sailing yacht Aureus XV - The Compact Maxi Yacht
> 
> ComarYachts
> 
> We have also Wally making big yachts:
> 
> Wally // Sail
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Don't forget NM!


olianta said:


> I didn't mean only the quality of wood. There are more important things that you mentioned in your post regarding the difference between First and Oceanis like hull stiffness due to better materials and technology, and keel material and its attachment, quality and robustness of standing rigging, etc. Running rigging and sails you can always upgrade on any boat. I could ask Oluf to skip all the wood from my boat but didn't because for this type of boat (modern and livable skerry cruiser) the wood outside and inside suits her and adds personality. Besides, I think besides the good looks all that wood on decks and below is functional as well in terms of nonslip and insulation.
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


Of course I know what you are talking about but in several points I don't think you are right. Standing and running rigging is not that good at a HR (mostly by Selden that also deliver riggings for nearly everyone). 


PCP said:


> What I love in the boat is the hull design, rig and cockpit layout, not the interior.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I am with you!


----------



## olianta

*Re: Luxury versus good design and modern building techniques.*



PCP said:


> What I said regarding boats needing a stronger and stiffer hull did not refer to Halberg-Rassy or Dufour 410, both non performance cruisers but regarding a comparison between a main market cruiser and a performance one like the Dufour 410 and the Dufour 40e or the Halberg-Rassy 412 and for instance an Arcona 410. The performance boats have bigger rigs, bigger RM for the weight and need to have a stronger hull to take the bigger generated loads.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Actually I am no fan of Halberg Rassy. Currently, in our waters (west Black Sea coast) there are a few Halberg Rassys (from 31 to 43) and I am not impressed by their sailing ability. their owners sail them as daysailors which lacks sense. You cannot have a fun sailing such a boat.

In my post where I was surprised that someone would downgrade from Halberg Rassy to Dufour, I meant that there are other fast both performance and non performance cruisers in the higher quality level, like the Xp/Xc which Dufour 410 or cannot match. And since price is to a big extent a measure of quality, I would say that if I have got used to Hallberg Rassy and want something faster, I will be looking for a new boat within similar price level (X Yachts, Solaris) and would not opt to buy a Dufour 410GL/40e, though I may charter one, (unless my buying ability has downgraded as well). It is like with cars, if you had a Volvo you would not switch to Peugeut, but may be to a BMW if you can afford it (and I take for granted that a current owner of relatively new Halberg Rassy has the means to switch it for a boat in the same price league).

P.S. On the official detailed PDF brochure of Dufour 410 GL they write that the hull is hand laid polyester fibreglass. maybe they can upgrade everything but that will add a lot of cost and may be the boat will not compete that much with other more expensive brands.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## olianta

By the way, I didn't know that in 2013 Dufour Yachts was reorganised through Management buy out of the company from the Bavaria Yacht Group.

Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Dufour*



olianta said:


> By the way, I didn't know that in 2013 Dufour Yachts was reorganised through Management buy out of the company from the Bavaria Yacht Group.
> 
> On the official detailed PDF brochure of Dufour 410 GL they write that the hull is hand laid polyester fibreglass. maybe they can upgrade everything but that will add a lot of cost and may be the boat will not compete that much with other more expensive brands.
> 
> Rumen


Yes they were bought by Bavaria 4 years ago as well as Grand Soleil. But contrary to Hanse with Dehler the results were not good and both company are out of Bavaria now. Grand Soleil is connected with the group that makes Sly yachts and Dufour is independent again.

Regarding upgrading yachts it is the new trend now on the middle price mass market boats. Brands like Dehler, Dufour or Salona can purpose you basic relatively inexpensive boats or boats hugely improved (including hull, keel and mast materials) for a much more expensive amount of money. that's a great deal because using the molds and some of the parts for both boats they can save a lot an purpose a basic boat or a produce a very top boat by much less than it would cost a brand new one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

*Re: Dufour*



PCP said:


> Yes they were bought by Bavaria 4 years ago as well as Grand Soleil.
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Thanks Paulo, as usual you are well informed. I think I read somewhere recently that Grand Soleil may be in trouble because Bavaria "didn't want them any more". It seems that well known boatyards and brands will get extinct if they do not find financial help accompanied by good marketing strategies. 
When I was in Denmark two months ago I even heard some rumours that Bavaria were not doing well - they have cut production quantities of new boats and besides they were stuck up with a lot of used boats that they bought out from loyal customers after selling them new ones. Unlike cars (that after some years go for scrap) fibreglass boats don't get destroyed but circulate the used boat market and that market tends to be the biggest competitor of the boatyards. That was another opinion I heard.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## robelz

Congratulations, Paulo, your "baby" is now 1000 likes old...


----------



## PCP

*The last videos from Capado Circumnavigation:*

Thanks Robelz

And their circumnavigation finished at the end of September. They returned to Marseille. The last videos, one in Azores where they even sailed alongside a local regatta and the way back to Europe, another two with them arriving at Marseille.

The boat, a small FOX 10.20 rake the circumnavigation with easiness (they even tool a friend from the States - 3 in the boat). They found out that the lifting keel was of no great use after all and were very satisfied with the boat performance and comfort.

They don't have the money to keep the boat so, as it was planned from the begging, they are going to sell it. It will be an interesting affair for someone that wants a boat prepared for extensive travelling (depending on the price).
















Retour Marseille - 21 sept 2013 from Adrien de Belloy on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*Great sailors are cool*

I remember some years ago when Cammas on an upturned trimaran at the middle of the night (in a storm) waited for 9.00AM in France to inform the rescue services, because he did not want to disturb their rest time and now it is Lionel Lemonchois, on a capsized trimaran since Monday that will wait *5 days* for the towing team: no problem he says: "I have food and water and my hand is not so badly hurt as I thought." All is well at the middle of the Atlantic on a capsized trimaran. I love those guys


----------



## PCP

*Trimaran Banque Populaire VII: Visite 3D*

An interesting visit to the ARMEL LE CLÉAC´H boat, the giantt trimaran Banque Populaire VII.

Maxi Trimaran Solo Banque Populaire VII

This boat has a water ballast tank on the back of the boat to better its behavior running downwind with big waves.

Sailing it solo Armel is going to beat the Record of the "la Route des Decouverts". He was 750NM of advance over the actual holder, Joyon. Meantime, as I had posted, he had beaten twice the absolute solo sailor 24 hours record.

We could think this is the top of the crop in what regards maxi racing Oceanic trimarans....well, some think the Price de Bretagne is faster...but he is upside down in the middle of the Atlantic, I would say that it is Spinddrift 2, if well sailed.

Now prepare yourself to be confused: Spindrift 2 is the renamed Banque Populaire V, the boat that with Peyron and his crew is the holder of the absolute circumnavigation record, while Banque Populaire VII, Armel's boat is an older, smaller and slower one, the ex- Grupama, the one that was the previous holder of the circumnavigation record with Cammas (and crew) and the one used by Cammas to win solo the last Route du Rhum.

Contrary to what would be expected the Banque Popular V is a more modern boat that Banque Popular VII. To easily distinguish both on photos (since they are painted the same way), Banque Populaire V is the one with the inverted bows while the VII still has traditional bows.

Here you can see both boats on their original colors: The Groupama and the Banque Populaire V. Look at the size of the man between the two boats...they are huge


----------



## DiasDePlaya

1000 likes! Yeah!


----------



## PCP

*Best off 2013 IRC French Championship*

Thanks Dias.

To commemorate a great video, not great quality but great footage:


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: The last videos from Capado Circumnavigation:*



PCP said:


> Thanks Robelz
> 
> And their circumnavigation finished at the end of September. They returned to Marseille. The last videos, one in Azores where they even sailed alongside a local regatta and the way back to Europe, another two with them arriving at Marseille.
> 
> The boat, a small FOX 10.20 rake the circumnavigation with easiness (they even tool a friend from the States - 3 in the boat). They found out that the lifting keel was of no great use after all and were very satisfied with the boat performance and comfort.
> 
> They don't have the money to keep the boat so, as it was planned from the begging, they are going to sell it. It will be an interesting affair for someone that wants a boat prepared for extensive travelling *(depending on the price)*.


well - it is at 131032 pounds stirling...
i have no idea why such an awkward price - it is in euro also no round figure... probably in franc... :laugher
Capado FoX 10.20


----------



## robelz

130.000 pounds sounds a little bit to much for a boat with a whole circumnavigation even if it is a very good one...


----------



## capt vimes

yes - way to much for a little plywood boat having already gone around the globe...
i like the fox 10.20 but 130k pounds would be the utmost i would pay for a new one...


----------



## PCP

*Capado: Fox 10.20*



robelz said:


> 130.000 pounds sounds a little bit to much for a boat with a whole circumnavigation even if it is a very good one...


That's the asking price. You can say that he has made a circumnavigation but on the other end is a boat with less than three years. They have a lot of equipment on the boat from solar panels to an hidrogenerator and I don't know if a watermaker, but yes I believe they will not sell for that price. They have plenty of sails but not a furler. They are good sailors and like to use sails on a tuff luff but that for a solo sailor would not work. I believe they will sale for a lot less.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

paulo - i think you know that all the additional equipment is worth naught to the want-to-be buyer... it is the value of the boat which counts and not what the former owner has installed, because you as a buyer is still going to throw out lots of stuff and bring new installations and what not on board...

btw: interesting how fox is building their hulls... scroll down: FoX Tech - FoX 10.20 - Gallery
i think i haven't seen before that one starts with a jig for the deck, lays out the whole deck structure and builds the hull on top of it... 
why is the cockpit in glass-foam panels and not also from plywood?


----------



## robelz

*Re: Capado: Fox 10.20*



PCP said:


> That's the asking price. You can say that he has made a circumnavigation but on the other end is a boat with less than three years. They have a lot of equipment on the boat from solar panels to an hidrogenerator and I don't know if a watermaker, but yes I believe they will not sell for that price. They have plenty of sails but not a furler. They are good sailors and like to use sails on a tuff luff but that for a solo sailor would not work. I believe they will sale for a lot less.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


They have a lot of sails that also did a circumnavigation... Same for the equipment. I'd say 80.000-90.000€ is a realistic price.


----------



## PCP

*Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 349*

Prepare yourself for a rant:. Not that the 349 is a bad boat but precisely because it could be an exceptionally good cruiser and it is not, spoiled by some details that will have great influence on the way the boat functions and that includes cruising, not only performance cruising. That is nothing that pisses me more than a great boat spoiled by details

First the good things: Great Marc Lombard hull, great stability not only given by a moderated chined beamy hull (3.44m) but also very a good B/D ratio (30%) for this type of boat, considering keel and draft (1.98). Good weight too (5350kg). Possibility of a big square top mainsail.











Great interior by Jeanneau design, better in quality (design) than the one on the 379. Fantastic the separated shower of good dimensions on a 34ft boat and very good the holding tank capacity (80L) as well as the galley and the freezer dimensions. God storage on the interior. Very nice and comfortable.











On the cockpit, nice bathing platform, nice space for the wheels man, nice access to the main winch, nice place for the plotter, nice storage for the liferaft and fenders on the back of the boat.





So many nice things BUT look at this:



Yes, very nice ventilation and illumination for the aft cabin...the problem is that on the other side of the cockpit they have another hatch with the same size to access the main boat storage space. They are kidding me? This would be alright in a racing boat. It has advantages in what regards to keep the boat watertight in extreme conditions (and inversion) and it is a common solution on racing boats but on a cruising boat?

Yes they also have a small access through the shower but all the concept is plain ridiculous on this type of boat. You will not have a decent access to the big and deep looker and would have to go to the shower, pass a very small opening to manage to take out stuff from there to the cockpit. If they wanted this kind of solution, that has advantages, they would have to consider a rectangular bigger opening hatch. As now they don't have the space for it, the only solution would be to enlarge that acess trough a traditional cockpit locker. It would give some more acess space but they would have to provide illumination and ventilation in the traditional manner.

and this?





Can someone explain to me the advantage of that small narrow space on the frontal part of the forward cabin???? It is ugly, serves no purpose and turned the anchor locker in a very small shallow one that will be even smaller when a winch is istalled

The standard version has not a geenaker pole but they have one option for one, this one:



It is nice but can't they see that the anchor roller is on a bad position and that the anchor is sideways making pressure against the fiberglass structure of the pole and is going to destroy it? The right way to have an anchor on that kind of pole is to have the bow roller and anchor stand integrated on the structure, otherwise it will be needed a very oddly designed bow roller, very sideways, not very effective and very ugly.

and this?





Yes that's right, the boat does not have a genoa traveler, it has one of those 3D systems that are used on race boats...except that here they are not 3D because you have no way to regulate it and what it seems a coll thing coming from racing is just a way to save money on a traveler. On this boat you have very little control on the shape of the forward sail, specially when reefed or if you decide to use a bigger genoa. Cheap!!!

and this?





On such a small boat a so monstrous cockpit table severely limits the space on the cockpit and thos one that is not removable. If they wanted a fixed one at least it should be one that folds completely, leaving a single hand grab at the middle. This one even folded is fat and wide...and for what? for having some storage space in the middle

and this ?



Okay, I understand the need of having a basic boat to sell cheaply but I don't understand why it is done in a way that prevents upgrading the boat. Yes, having only one winch for the main and the geenaker or the frontal sail is a nice way to save money but why to have a boat with an option of a big square mainsail (a sports option) and not allowing the possibility of having separated winches for the mainsail and geenaker (or frontal sail)?

In fact the way the boat is rigged (in a very definitive way) prevents the addition of a second winch on the cockpit...and it would be easy, it would only be needed the elimination of that useless triangle on the cockpit seat and to enlarge with that space the bench and put there a second winch, or even easier, to have a version with a removable cockpit table, or one that folds in the cockpit and allow a sportier version with the mainsheet coming to a traveler on the cockpit trough a purchase system. The mainsail with a square top is not meant to turn the boat on a more sportier one? Than what is the point with so many limitations in what regards sail control?

I am quite sure that the hull potential of this boat deserved a more sportive version and that is prevented by many limitations on the way the boat is designed (cockpit) and rigged. It does not make sense to me.

The tendency today (a logical one) is to have a good fast basic hull that allows for a boat that can be modified in many versions, from an inexpensive basic cruiser to a performance cruiser or even a cruiser racer. Salona and Dehler are very good examples of that trend that allows for a boat to suit many, with gains on the costs. The Jeanneau 349 is regretfully a very bad example, and the sad thing is that the hull has the potential to create a truly polivalent boat with several versions to different types of sailors.

http://yachthub.com/ad_img/1/3/8/3/0/8/Jeanneau-SO349-inventory-2014.pdf


----------



## funjohnson

How much friction do those stainless line guides that go over the cabin top to the coaming add to the sail handling?


----------



## PCP

Not much. I saw those pieces in Dusseldorf. The angle is not big. But I saw also better and I intend to buy those for my sailboat, for the reefs and for that effect also.


----------



## funjohnson

Wow...just noticed that there are 17 clutches in the cockpit, but the deck organizer are only three on each side. Figuring then six from the mast, two for jib sheets, one for furling line and maybe two for double main sheeting, any idea what the other 6 clutches would be for?


----------



## olianta

*Re: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 349*



PCP said:


> Can someone explain to me the advantage of that small narrow space on the frontal part of the forward cabin???? It is ugly, serves no purpose and turned the anchor locker in a very small shallow one that will be even smaller when a winch is istalled


Maybe be the narrow recess in the forepeak (that has compromised the anchor locker) is designed for some long tall guy/girl to stretch his/her foot (maybe both feet) and to get them locked.

Regards
Rumen


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## EricKLYC

I just noticed: 1.000 (one thousand!) "likes".
Congratulations Paulo and all the other faithful contributors to this excellent thread.

Cheers,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*ORC world championship 2014*

The world championship is alternately on the Baltic and on the Med. Last year it was in Italy, Ancona, next year it will be in Germany in Kiel.Entries opened 2 months ago and they have already over 125 entrants for a competition that it will take place more than 6 months from now.

Almost for sure the number of entries it will be the biggest ever and they have already boats from 13 nationalities including title winners and vice champions of 2012 and 2013.

It sounds good for ORC that is on the rise. Lots of interesting boats among them the Neo 400.

Let's take the opportunity to have a look at last year's world Championship that took place in Ancona on the choppy med waters and remember the Podium and the champions:

Class A:

1St:TP52 Hurakan - Marco Serafini 
2nd:TP52 Aniene - Rinaldi - Martin 
3rd:TP52 Enfant Terrible - Alberto Rossi

Class B:

1St: NM 38 Scugnizza - Vincenzo De Blasio
2nd: Comet 38S Uka Uka Racing -Uka Uka Racing
3rd: First 35 South Kensington - Alessandro Consiglio











and Kiel the city where the 2014 world Championship will be held:

http://vimeo.com/56909260#at=0


----------



## PCP

*Vor: more entries*

A Turkish one, or should I say American

That's a Turkish boat:



but it will be sailed by the All Americans Ocean racing team.

All American Ocean Racing | Get To Know Us

They are young, talented and inexperienced on the VOR or circumnavigation races. Nice for them to have a chance.

Another new team is the Dutch Team Brunel:



The skipper will be the Veteran Bouwe Bekking. It will be his 7th VOR and second as skipper and this will be a all Dutch team....and they are looking for sailors, so if you are a Dutch and a good sailor...

*"Meet Brunel skipper Bouwe Bekking and his crew members. Are you a professional sailor? Find out how to join the crew here!"
*

https://www.facebook.com/bouwebekking

It seems to me that this time the "Girls" will have a more than fair chance to win the next VOR: They seem to me one of the more professional teams and one with sailors with the best qualifications, not to mention hard training with the boat.


----------



## PCP

*Hh 42*



EricKLYC said:


> I just noticed: 1.000 (one thousand!) "likes".
> Congratulations Paulo and all the other faithful contributors to this excellent thread.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Eric


Thanks EricK!

Let's have a look at an interesting new racer by Hakes Marine the HH42, a NZ boat designed by Judel and VrolijK.





It seems she can go fast






But a bit wet isn't it ? I guess that a more pronounced chine on the bow, a bit like the 40class racers have, would give them a much more comfortable ride but maybe not faster. Well if you want to go really fast you will get wet, that's for sure but these guys seem to be exaggerating

For the guys that race in fast boats: They should not be all on the back of the boat, starboard side, to raise the bow?


----------



## robelz

Coville stopped his attempt to get the world record for a singlehanded circumnavigation due to a high risk of ice in the southern ocean and no real chance to beat Joyon's record...


----------



## PCP

*Record attempts:*



robelz said:


> Coville stopped his attempt to get the world record for a singlehanded circumnavigation due to a high risk of ice in the southern ocean and no real chance to beat Joyon's record...


That ice story is a an excuse. In fact he got caught in the Doldrums and was already a 1000 NM behind Joyon's time.

From the three that went for records only Armel has succeed (Lionel Lemonchois capsized) and what a success: 2 times the 24 hours solo record beaten and the Atlantic crossing in the incredible time of 6 jours 23 heures 42 minutes at the amazing average speed of 23.2K. To give you an idea of this fantastic performance, the anterior record (2013) was from Joyon and was beaten by 1 day and almost 17 hours. The deference of average speed is huge: 18.7K to 23.2K.

That was faster than the best time with a full crew 7 years ago.

It seems that Armel Le Cleach has successfully made its transition from monohulls to multihulls


----------



## PCP

*Sydney GTS 43*

I saw the boat in Dusseldorf and I was really impressed. The boat really looks good, very well built and with a surprisingly good interior for this type of cruiser-racer that is more used for racing than for cruising. Better than a Pogo 12.50 for instance: it even has doors

The only thing the really points for a racer are the suspended bunks that are easily removable and can be substituted by a shelf for books that enters the same supports.

For the type of boat with top performance the price has to be high but I was expecting more. The basic price is 319 000 euros.

I thought that this was the first Sydney GTS43 made by Salona but it turned out that they have already made and sold 10 boats and that is very good for this kind of extreme performance cruiser. I expressed my surprise to Nenad (the sales manager from Salona) and said that probably they are starting to win and they are going to have a lot more commands. Nenad replied : *"that's what I am afraid off. These boats are very difficult to build"*

Just to give you an idea of the performances of this boat it is enough to say that from 45º to 120º true wind and with 4K to 8K wind the boat is always faster then the wind. With 4K wind between 60º and 120º the boat is always over 5K, doing almost 6K at 100º. At that angle with 5K wind the boat makes 7K

With 16K wind goes at more than 13K, with 20K wind over 16K and with 30K wind over 20K.

These are performances of a racer. What really impresses is that this boat can be used as a performance cruiser or a cruiser racer, certainly one of the faster.

I will not talk about the boat dimensions since I had already posted about that, just some photos and a movie... (Beautiful boat):






























I asked about the 37 and no, they had not yet made any boat but I learn that the demand of information about the 37 had been big on the boat show and that means that we will see one soon. The 37 will cost about 260 000 euros (base price) and for the ones that will dream in cruising one of these fast boats it will be a better option, since the 43 is too much boat to be handled by a solo sailor. Contrary to the Pogo 12.50 it is not a forgiven boat, designed to be solo sailed and will demand a crew to be sailed near its potential, specially downwind.


----------



## robelz

Hmmm, the salesperson that showed me the Sydney told me that there were only very few requests for the 37... He also said that compared to an Australian Sydney the build quality at Salona is a lot better.

One of the floor-boards was so flexible that they had to prop it up...


----------



## SweareDeep

The floorboards on the Sydney GTS43 at Dusseldorf were extraordinarily squeaky -- I'm not sure they would necessarily have turned out that squeaky even if someone had tried to make them squeaky! Squeaky floorboards are a pet peeve of mine.

I really went on the GTS43 though to get a different view of the Azuree 46 across from it (which happily passed my squeaky floorboard test).


----------



## PCP

SweareDeep said:


> The floorboards on the Sydney GTS43 at Dusseldorf were extraordinarily squeaky -- I'm not sure they would necessarily have turned out that squeaky even if someone had tried to make them squeaky! Squeaky floorboards are a pet peeve of mine.
> 
> I really went on the GTS43 though to get a different view of the Azuree 46 across from it (which happily passed my squeaky floorboard test).


Welcome to the thread and to sailnet

I confess that I did not noticed any squeaky floorboards on the Sydney GTS43. Maybe they were but sure If I had not noticed than I would have not be worried about that, I am not particularly annoyed with it. But certainly the ones on Azuree are heavier as well as everything, except ballast.

The Azuree are relatively light boats but are comparatively much more heavier than the Sydney, specially if we consider the much bigger B/D ratio of the Sydney. The Azuree 40 weights 7100kg, the 46 10700kg. the Sydney 43 weights 6950kg. You have to accept some compromises to have the weight and performance of a boat like the Sydney and slightly squeaky floorboards (if you say so) are not a bad compromise.

You cannot look to the Azuree the same way you look to the Sydney. They are not comparable boats nor they point to the same type of sailors or market. I find both great boats for what they are designed to do.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Edward3

Christopher Dragon is another Sydney GTS that raced down in Florida the past couple of weeks. A sweet lookin ride with it's low cut dog house, straight bow, long sprint...
Being a new boat the results didn't show. Probably in conservation mode during the Ft Lauderdale-Key West race they finished 5th, 2 hours behind the HPR Carkeek 40 and about 30 minutes faster than two Swan 42's. Better during the Key West Race Week they finished 4th against other 40' + Swans, J's, Ker and Mills boats.


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## SweareDeep

I certainly don't look at these two boats the same way, as I fully appreciate that they're aimed at different market segments. That said, I wasn't overly impressed by the fit and finish on the GTS43. Good fit and finish may add expense but needn't add weight.

But, as I said, I was on the GTS43 largely as a platform from which to view the Azuree 46 (they were adjacent at the show) and not in order to make a boat-to-boat comparison. I'm not (this time around) in the market for a primarily race boat.


----------



## PCP

Edward3 said:


> Christopher Dragon is another Sydney GTS that raced down in Florida the past couple of weeks. A sweet lookin ride with it's low cut dog house, straight bow, long sprint...
> Being a new boat the results didn't show. Probably in conservation mode during the Ft Lauderdale-Key West race they finished 5th, 2 hours behind the HPR Carkeek 40 and about 30 minutes faster than two Swan 42's. Better during the Key West Race Week they finished 4th against other 40' + Swans, J's, Ker and Mills boats.


As you know the Sydney GTS 43 can be raced fast in real time and in compensated. as you probably know this one:



Won two years ago the Sydney- Hobart overall and finished among the big boats leaving behind in real time many pure race boats.

They didn't enter this year's race and I was quite disappointed with that.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 41s*

Contrary to other mass market cruisers that offer performance versions the one from Bavaria is a more serious one with a lighter boat, a true deep lead keel (2.30) a bigger and better mast, Carbon spy pole and composite steering wheels, backstay adjuster more sail area, main sheet system with ball bearing cockpit traveler, genoa cars with trim line system, 6 cockpit winches (instead of 4 and bigger), removable cockpit table and an open transom. All sail hardware is of better quality.

The boat is used for serious racing in Germany, particularly the Match racing German leg of the World's championship. Here the previous boat, the 40s.






The keel is IRC optimized and the boat has a good rating. It can be an interesting option for someone that don't want to spend more on a performance cruiser but want a competitive boat that is also a great cruiser since the interior is the same.

As usual they are lousy at Bavaria in what regards information and we cannot have the weight of this boat. They give it as being heavier 260 kg regarding the cruiser when this boat has less ballast, has not the big swimming platform and has lighter components. A relatively heavy boat anyway.

The boat looks a lot nicer with the Open transom:


----------



## PCP

*Cornish Crabber 26*

These boats exist for so many years that once it was just the boat that I wanted to own...30 years ago. But a boat that lasts for so many years have to have its own charms, even considering that the British are among the most conservative sailors in the world.






Yes, they are not fast neither they point sharp but certainly they sail with style and that can be fun too; besides they have an incredibly nice interior for a 26ft boat. Don't miss this video, way better than the first and you will understand what I mean with charm: Look how the owner is enthusiastic about his boat, he loves it...a lot. The boat has its charms I tell you

*Movie:*

Eigenwilliger Engländer Cornish Crabber 26 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

If you like them, there is only a problem: they are not cheap


----------



## robelz

SweareDeep said:


> I certainly don't look at these two boats the same way, as I fully appreciate that they're aimed at different market segments. That said, I wasn't overly impressed by the fit and finish on the GTS43. Good fit and finish may add expense but needn't add weight.


You shouldn't forget it was the famous "hull no. one" for Salona.


----------



## robelz

Morgan Lagravière at the helm of the new Safran - Vendée Globe 2012-2013

New skipper and a new 'Safran' for the 2016 VG!


----------



## PCP

*Morgan Lagravière*



robelz said:


> Morgan Lagravière at the helm of the new Safran - Vendée Globe 2012-2013
> 
> New skipper and a new 'Safran' for the 2016 VG!


Who would have guessed? I believe that there are several more talented young sailors to promote directly to the top but who knows what is behind this "promotion" to the top ranks? His achievements are not impressive in what regards solo sailing. maybe they are seeing something I don't (they should know better) or maybe it is just not all about sailing.

Morgan LagraviÃ¨re - WikipÃ©dia

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz




----------



## PCP

*Morgan Lagravière*

167/


robelz said:


> Championnat de France de course au large en solitaire - WikipÃ©dia


and this is supposed to mean what, that you don't agree with what I have said?

The Solo French solo offshore championship regards only the Figaro class, leaves outside the 40class solo championship that is the logical next step before Open 60.

The Figaro offshore solo championship is a coastal offshore championship that only in 2013 included a Transat.

As you can see in 2012 LAGRAVIERE won it based on regularity.

http://www.medrace.fr/extras/Classement_CFCLS_2012_definitif_Validé_FFV.pdf

and you can see also on last year solo offshore championship he had not made better that 12th.

http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/web/evenement/2013/Classement_CFECLS.pdf

Morgan Lagravière never won any Transat contrary to several that in my opinion have a far better curriculum and were a more logical choice for a top Open60 to race the next vendee globe. Here you have some:

Fabien Delahaye

Palmarès - Fabien Delahaye | Macif Course au large

Erwan Tabarly

That was second on the 2012 French solo offshore championship and has already won a Transat in Figaro and been 2nd and 3rd on another two:






Sébastien Rogues:

Sebastien Rogues | The skipper

Thomas Ruyant






Face to these sailors, all relatively young, the curriculum of Morgan Lagravière is not a big one:

Morgan Lagravière - Safran Sailing Team

I am not saying that he is not the best choice, just that it not seems the more logical one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*X yachts: X6*

I have posted briefly about the X6 when the boat was announced but this boat deserves much more: It is a new approach from X yachts to cruising. After the XP series for performance cruising and racing, the Xc series for cruising, in quite a classical type of offshore boats, X yachts come with a new line for offshore cruising, pointing to blue water boats more modern and possibly faster than the rather classic XC line.

The first one it will be a 60 ft and we have already more images of the boat that will give us a good idea of the boat:



























The boat is described this way by X yachts:

*"The X6 represents the first in a new development of performance cruising yachts. The twin-rudder X6 will utilise the same hi-tech construction techniques as X-Yachts adopted to build their latest generation Xp racer-cruisers, including vacuum infused epoxy with localised carbon for strength, stiffness and stability. It also comes from the same drawingboard as the award-winning Xcruising family.

Combining the best elements of these two world-beating ranges will be an all-new, luxurious and impressively fast collection of performance cruising yachts for state of the art bluewater sailing.

The first model will be in the 60-foot range, a sector which is dominated by traditionally styled, relatively heavy cruising yachts. In developing their latest model, by using the Xp construction techniques, X-Yachts sets out to achieve a 15-20 per cent weight saving over a traditionally built 60ft cruiser, while offering improved performance and amenities compared to Mediterranean-style 'daysailer' yachts. The new models will be offered with a wide choice of sail options, with high priority given to ensuring the yacht is easily handled with just one or two crew.....

The mainsheet may be led down to the cockpit sole (as standard) or onto a carbon arch, offered as an option to create a clear and safe cockpit. High specification deck gear includes furling headsails with optional hydraulic rams, self-tacking jibs, and an inner forestay, all designed to create an adaptable and easily managed sail plan....

The huge transom garage combines storage for a Jet RIB tender of up to 3.2m, with roller launch system and integral powered winch....

The X6´s hull is designed to meet the demands from sailors, who want to enjoy sailing in a wide range of conditions. Opposite to the mainstream trends of yachts with a very modern appearance, X6 is meant to be enjoyable and easily controllable in more than just 'reaching' conditions. The upwind performance and sea keeping has been given a lot of attention whilst choosing design parameters and various aspect ratios.

Achieving comfort when sailing to windward in a rough sea was an essential prerequisite in the X6 hull design. Deep V sections, modest displacement, generous stability, and a powerful yet easy to handle sail plan offer smooth sailing through the waves. This combined with the thoroughbred X-Yachts 
racing heritage delivers a new generation of world class cruising yachts."*

Very Italian in the hull concept...I would nor mind to live permanently in something like that

As you can see this is another big modern fast cruiser designed to be solo or duo crewed and it will be more modern and fast than their very traditional line of XC cruisers that are meant to compete with Halberg-Rassy and the like. This one is another story...a nicer one in my opinion

http://www.x-yachts.com/files/$misc/X6%20brochure_final.pdf

They talk about a performance cruiser but that is to be taken with a grain of salt. The boat weights 29.5T while the Salona 60, a direct competitor heights only 24.0T.

I visited the Salona 60 on Dusseldorf and it is just an incredible boat, no doubt fast, with all controls at the wheels, also meant to be sailed solo or by a crew. It has also a great interior... a true house and a fast one too

Salona 60


----------



## robelz

The Salona is not only a lot lighter, it also looks better in my opinion...


----------



## PCP

*Sailing:*

some interesting videos:


----------



## robelz

25 feet, 1500kg, 50% ballast, fat head main, 59000€ incl. VAT...


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
The information is all in my last post. Read slowly.

The boat review was the Sun Odessey349. Don't recall the publication but it was English. I think they generally do the best and most honest job. But I don't speak French, Spanish or Italian. I do quite well with Mandarin though.

Sun Odessey 349 was the bopat reviewed.

The Bavaria is ther Farr desin and I said one boat has no chiones and that boat is the Farr design.

The Farr designed Bavaria has no chines.

Clear?


----------



## bobperry

I love that new X Yacht.
No chines?
They must be behind the times or not know what they are doing.
Or, really know what they are doing. Yes, I think that's it.

Ha!


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> The information is all in my last post. Read slowly.
> 
> The boat review was the Sun Odessey349. Don't recall the publication but it was English. I think they generally do the best and most honest job. But I don't speak French, Spanish or Italian. I do quite well with Mandarin though.
> 
> Sun Odessey 349 was the bopat reviewed.
> 
> The Bavaria is ther Farr desin and I said one boat has no chiones and that boat is the Farr design.
> 
> The Farr designed Bavaria has no chines.
> 
> Clear?


Bob, that discussion is on another thread and I have re-posted your post there as well as the answer.

On this thread we have already covered chines and their function on sailboat design.

For the ones that want to continue to discuss the subject there is a thread about it where Bob Perry and I, among others have been posting:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailboat-design-construction/120033-hard-chines-3.html#post1370393

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Pointer 25*



robelz said:


> 25 feet, 1500kg, 50% ballast, fat head main, 59000€ incl. VAT...


The dimensions look great but the Vand de Stadt design looks not very interesting or modern. The builder is a Dutch dingy manufacturer and I doubt they can keep the final weight of 1500kg (with 750kg of ballast). Let's wait and see.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Chines*



bobperry said:


> I love that new X Yacht.
> No chines?
> They must be behind the times or not know what they are doing.
> Or, really know what they are doing. Yes, I think that's it.
> 
> Ha!


Bob, the X yachts are designed by Niels Jeppesen an in house designer that only designs X yachts. Even if I do prefer designers with a broader experience than an in house designer there are some that have proved along the time and particularly in racing that they are great in what they do. That's the case for instance with Neils but also with Johnstone from Jboats.

From what observation it seems that you consider that Neils know what is doing when is not using chines in cruising boats and that the other designers that use them don't know what they are doing, for instance designers like Marc Lombard, Finot/Conq, Berret Racopeau, Umberto Felci. Off course being Neils Jeppesen a great NA all of the above are no less and even have a lot more experience having designed much more boats and very different ones. I believe they all know what they are doing.

Again, for the ones that want to participate on the discussion of this subject please post and follow it here:http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailboat-design-construction/120033-hard-chines-3.html#post1370393


----------



## PCP

*Xc 35*

Talking about X-Yachts and Niels Jeppesen, I visited his last work at Dusseldorf boat show, the XC 35 and I have only one word to describe it: Cute

That is a very nice little boat that did not have convinced my wife that prefers the quality of French interior design. Maybe I have a better eye for the quality of building and finish that in this boat is superb:





















There are very few things that I don't like on this boat, being one of them the big cockpit table that is not removable and that takes away a lot of space from the cockpit that being the one of a 35ft boat is not big. One of those folding ones that disappear on the cockpit floor would be a far better solution.

But I really don't understand the market concept of this boat. They say:

*(The XC 35) "will become the newest member of the highly praised and awarded long distance Xcruising range. The Xc 35 is designed to offer a smoother voyage than typical performance cruisers, by having a relatively heavier displacement and deeper hull sections. These deeper V-shaped hull sections help the Xc models give a more comfortable motion in large waves, especially when heading upwind under sail or engine."*

But then the boat has a beam of 3.52m, similar to other mass market cruising boats has a weight of 6450 kg that is comparable with the one of a Bavaria 36 and the boat has not more rocker than the typical mass production cruiser so I guess that all that talk regarding a superior comfort in sea motion is just talk.

A very nice boat, but who would chose such a small boat to long distance cruising, a boat with limited storage and tankage that cost the price of a more seaworthy and comfortable much bigger boat? The basic price of this little beauty is over 190 000 euros.

Contrary to what they claim this is much more of a nice coastal luxury cruiser than a voyage boat...and I don't believe they will sell many of them. The 38 and the bigger boats on the XC line make a lot more sense in what regards long range cruising in comfort and luxury.


----------



## robelz

Something about X-Yachts: Had a nice chat at the BOOT with a Danish salesman. Asking him about the XP33's performance he said: In fact it was built for IRC but there wasn't any major success in 2013. In ORCi instead it was pretty good... 

Nice for those who are looking for an ORCi racer but a hard verdict for Jeppersen...


van de Stad has never made very modern designs, but you can see at Winner Yachts that their design work very well... The 900 is one of the best 9m-boats I know. Perfekt interior, not too heavy, pretty good performance and extremely seaworthy.


----------



## PCP

*ORC and rating systems.*



robelz said:


> Something about X-Yachts: Had a nice chat at the BOOT with a Danish salesman. Asking him about the XP33's performance he said: In fact it was built for IRC but there wasn't any major success in 2013. In ORCi instead it was pretty good...
> 
> Nice for those who are looking for an ORCi racer but a hard verdict for Jeppersen...


That's all about the nonsense regarding rating formulas. For being good in IRC the boat had to be worse than it is (slower), I mean they had to put one of those stupid keels without a torpedo and diminish the RM of the boat. There are specialists in that, I mean tailoring boats for rating formulas but that does not mean they make very good boats, only boats that can beat the formula.

That is particularly stupid with IRS since the formula is a secret one, not like the ORC that is an open one. I hope that in a near future they finish of having the nonsense of having two major ratting systems and unify them.

Meanwhile I find the ORC a much better rating system adapting more the rating to the true performance of the boat and allowing for different ratings in different sea and wind conditions. It allows also a lot more variety in what regards the type of boats that will be able to win, in what regards hull shape and type of boat and has less influence in boat design than the IRC.

Don't believe me, believe Jason Ker:






It is not by accident that some of the best racing Nas have been contributing to the perfection of ORC that I think they see as the one that deserves to be improved.

ORC has a technical committee (ITC) that are the ones that are in charge of adapting each year the rule to make it more true to each boat real performances:

*The ITC is composed of nine members and two research associates who are naval architects, measurers, marine engineers and experts in aero and hydrodynamics, and who annually pursue a research agenda to update and improve the Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) used by ORC. This VPP forms the basis for ORC to provide ORC International (ORCi) and ORC Club handicap ratings for over 9000 boats around the world that race using ORC rating systems, and is used at the annual ORCi World Championship, the official ISAF offshore World Championship event.*

It is not a big committee and among them they have Jim Schmicker from Farr Yacht design and Jason Ker.

The ORC appears as a perfection of the IMS, based on a more scientific approach. In fact IMS was created by ORC and is still used (in ORC and other rating) as a measurement system. The ORC uses a much improved and complex VPP. The ORC was born in 1969 to create a unique international handicap standard from all pre-existing rating systems. Well, they are still trying

The ORC championships have been increasing in number and participation and they are very important in the Med and in the Baltic. There are actually ORC championships in Italy, Germany, Russia, swede, Finland, Norway, Netherlands, Lithuania, Estonia, Austria, Portugal, Spain, Greece, Croatia, Ecuador, Brazil, Argentina and Korea. Also a Mediterranean and a Central European championship as well as each year a World Championship and a European championship (at a single location and for about a week each).

As you can see the big hole in the picture are the French and the British that stick to IRC as well as the Americans that go mostly with a local rating system (PHRF).

Too technical to post about it here but if you, or anybody wants to know more about it (and it is very interesting) you can look at a ORCI certificate and look at the explanation about all those numbers in their site, a very good and dynamic one:

http://www.avomeripurjehtijat.fi/mittakirjat2012/L11514.pdf

ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology

ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology

http://www.orc.org/rules/ORC VPP Documentation 2013.pdf

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

[QU


EricKLYC said:


> I just noticed: 1.000 (one thousand!) "likes".
> Congratulations Paulo and all the other faithful contributors to this excellent thread.
> Cheers,
> Eric





robelz said:


> Congratulations, Paulo, your "baby" is now 1000 likes old...


I have another "baby" with almost as much likes and a lot less views, this one:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...ted/81388-pictures-those-perfect-moments.html

It seems that the guys that like this thread never post there. I would like to see that changed. One of the way of knowing people better is to know what they sail and what they like regarding cruising or racing but another good way is to have a look at it

So, please use a site like photobucket to host the photos (free) and post the photos in the thread (photobucket link). I really enjoy see other member's nice photos, so please contribute for an overall better image of us all, what we see and what we like.

Regards to all,

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Pelicano Missing In Action*

Sorry I have been so quiet these last two weeks. After 10 years with the same firm, I resigned and took a job at different firm. I spent several weeks transitioning my old job to new people, then spent last week getting accustomed to my new job with new people.

One big challenge with the new job is that I am now having to commute from my house to the office. The first day I attempted to drive the 77km and it took 2.5 hours. So I resolved the next day to take the train. But when you factor in the 20 minute drive to the train station, the 70 minute train ride, and the 5 minute shuttle van ride from the train station to the office building, I am still looking at a very long round-trip commute each day. Previously, I have been working from my home every day. 

Alas, there is no WiFi internet on the train, and my mobile reception is sketchy over a long stretch of the ride. So not really able to visit this thread going back and forth to work.

However, on the positive side, my office is right next to the water, along the harbour in Stamford, CT. So, of course, now I am thinking that perhaps the time to acquire the performance cruiser may be sooner rather than later, if I can figure out what to do during the winter months. I noticed that there are still quite a few boats in the water, despite the very cold weather (-10C to -20C some days), though the harbour has not frozen. But living aboard in those conditions would not be very much fun. Perhaps it is good enough to be able to live on the boat, near the office, from May until the end of November. Would save money in commuting and allow me to go sailing after work very easily, in summer.

For this reason, I am now looking very long and hard at the Elan 320 (not the 210) and trying to figure out if it's financially viable.

Anyway, I'll do my best to keep up here and contribute. It's my favorite site on the Web.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pelicano Missing In Action*



MrPelicano said:


> ...
> However, on the positive side, my office is right next to the water, along the harbour in Stamford, CT. So, of course, now I am thinking that perhaps the time to acquire the performance cruiser may be sooner rather than later, if I can figure out what to do during the winter months. I noticed that there are still quite a few boats in the water, despite the very cold weather (-10C to -20C some days), though the harbour has not frozen. But living aboard in those conditions would not be very much fun. Perhaps it is good enough to be able to live on the boat, near the office, from May until the end of November. Would save money in commuting and allow me to go sailing after work very easily, in summer.
> 
> For this reason, I am now looking very long and hard at the Elan 320 (not the 210) and trying to figure out if it's financially viable.
> 
> Anyway, I'll do my best to keep up here and contribute. It's my favorite site on the Web.


So good news. You have a ELan Dealer and a Salona dealer on the States. 
I don't know if you had saw the recent posts about the Salona 33 and the Elan 320?

Here they are:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1346993-post5855.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1344385-post5838.html

I would say that the Salona is a better regatta boat and the Elan a better solo one. Both has dealers in the US and the Salona 33 is going to be at the Miami boat show. If I was you I would say to both dealers that you are undecided between the two boats and that you are going to race the boat. A motivated dealer can really bring the prices down

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Chines and X yachts*



bobperry said:


> I love that new X Yacht.
> No chines?...


Bob, back on chines and on X-yachts. The new big passagemaker has not but the last performance cruiser, the 33 is the first one with chines. The one before that, the Xp 38 has not. It seems that Niels Jeppesen is just starting to use them. Some of the French Na use them already for years.

The Xp 33:



The Xp 38:



Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

This year's Route du Rhum will be hell of a race: Even Spindrift 2 will be on the track, raced be Yann Guichard - solo of course!

Remember: It is the worlds largest and fastest multihull...


----------



## capt vimes

robelz said:


> This year's Route du Rhum will be hell of a race: Even Spindrift 2 will be on the track, raced be Yann Guichard - solo of course!
> 
> Remember: It is the worlds largest and fastest multihull...


this 131 ft monster which holds the 24 hrs record with 908 nm and previously known as banc populaire V will be sailed singlehanded?
honestly - i have to see that in order to be able to believe it...


----------



## robelz

capt vimes said:


> this 131 ft monster which holds the 24 hrs record with 908 nm and previously known as banc populaire V will be sailed singlehanded?
> honestly - i have to see that in order to be able to believe it...


Spindrift Racing | Official website | Maxi Trimaran, MOD70 & Decision 35 ? The Spindrift racing series : ?40 metres solo? Episode 1 : Making the decision

Eat this!


----------



## capt vimes

"there will be a smaller mast, reduced sail area and a system for manouvres slightly adapted..."
still - incredible if this monster is sailed solo...
the main alone has 450 m²... a whole family with 4 generations could live comfortably in a place that big...


----------



## PCP

*Solo sailing and power*

I had the same doubts regarding Groupama, now Banque Populaire V on the last Route du Rhum. At the time the boat had finished to beat the world circumnavigation absolute record with Cammas and his crew and even some on the crew doubted that the boat could be sailed solo.

The rest is history, not only Cammas sailed successfully the boat solo as he won the race. Today we look at Armel on the same boat beating record after record and it seems almost easy

But one thing is to know if the boat can be sailed solo and I am pretty sure it can, even if the boat is bigger, other is to know if the power will be not too much to be handled for a solo sailor and if on account of that Armel on the smaller and less powerful boat would not be faster.

That had happened already on Open60 (Imoca) where today's fastest boats are not the more powerful (some of previous generation boats were more powerful).

In fact the future generation boats will all be less powerful since they have cut on the maximum allowed RM and contrary for instance with VOR, they are going to compete directly with the lighter and more powerful boats. It is going to be very interesting to see if the gains in design and more freedom in what regards design (water tanks) will be enough to compensate the weight and power disadvantage. There are some that doubt about that.


----------



## capt vimes

agreed.
but armel le cleach is on a different tri... BP VII is 8.5 m shorter, has "only" a 33.5 m mast and the total sail area on a close haul is 411 m²...
compare that with BP V - 40 m length, 47 m mast and as posted, the main alone has 450 m²... BP V was designed for crewed sailing and it is mentioned that they are going to reduce mast and sail area to make it manageable for a single sailor...
BP VII in fact is not so far above an open 60 when we talk sail area and mast height which armel sailed on various occasions around the globe already...

i am completely with you in regards manageable power and that slightly less powerful boats might be faster since they are easier to sail and therefor easier to bring to their designed speed...


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> agreed.
> but armel le cleach is on a different tri... BP VII is 8.5 m shorter, has "only" a 33.5 m mast and the total sail area on a close haul is 411 m²...
> compare that with BP V - 40 m length, 47 m mast and as posted, the main alone has 450 m²... BP V was designed for crewed sailing and it is mentioned that they are going to reduce mast and sail area to make it manageable for a single sailor...
> BP VII in fact is not so far above an open 60 when we talk sail area and mast height which armel sailed on various occasions around the globe already...
> 
> i am completely with you in regards manageable power and that slightly less powerful boats might be faster since they are easier to sail and therefor easier to bring to their designed speed...


Grupama, the one that Cammas sailed solo was also designed for crewed sailing, as I have said they had just finished to beat the world's circumnavigation record that was later beat by Peyron on the one that is actually Spindrift. I don't think that in the Grupama case the mast was shortened but all the running rigging was modified.

It is a case to see what is possible or not but I believe that there is a limit and maybe Spindrift is just too big...or maybe not

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Chines, cruising and racing*

I have posted this on another thread, that one already mentioned about chines:



PCP said:


> ...
> 
> This discussion led me to look at the subject with more attention. Regarding chines I had already seeing designers defending them in what regards absolute gains in speed but I like pragmatism and reality over theory and it is so simple as this: If chines represented an effective gain in speed, in what regards top racing and top racing designers, everyone would be using them. Of course as it is a relatively new thing and the gains are small it would take time to spread but it will spread inevitably to all, otherwise even small that difference would make the boats less competitive.
> 
> So, I had a look at top racing boats and new designs and a separation appears very clearly: Practically all solo boats, boats that are to be sailed with short crews or offshore over huge distances, extensively even with a crew, have them.
> 
> Many, maybe even most, of the top regatta crewed boats don't have them even if recent designs. For instance the TP 52 don't have them or many of Ker Reischel and Pugh or Mills very recent designs.
> 
> This leads me to consider very probable that the theory regarding gains in speed is not an absolute one and that the superior control of the boat in what regards easiness of sailing is much more at stake here.
> 
> On a solo boat or in a boat sailed day and night in harsh conditions a more easy to sail boat can translate in a faster boat while on a regatta with a full crew it is possible to have the concentration and skill to dispense that easiness in what regards top performance meaning that even if it is much more dificult to sail (but slightly faster) a top sailor's crew will be able to go faster.
> 
> Looking at the subject this way it is clear why it makes sense to use chines on cruising boats, since it as not to do with absolute speed but mostly with a better and easier boat control. It is not by accident that the improvements in rigging and design coming from open solo racers are the ones that have a more direct and faster utilization on cruising boats. Like on solo racers on cruising boats easiness is a very important characteristic in what regards sailing.
> ..


I would like the collaboration of all regarding this subject, I mean if chines regarding solo boats, short crewed racing boats or long distance offshore racers seem to be a reality in modern top performance designs, in what regards top performance regatta boats things are not so clear and I would say that chines are not a performance option...or maybe they are and are not so widely used yet.

I would like to follow that trend here (regatta boats) and I ask the collaboration of all in what regards to have a look at new designs: are the chines an advantage in this case, or not? The answer relates in knowing if the chines relates with an absolute sailing performance or relates with a better control with a small loss of absolute performance, better control that in some cases can translate in better overall performance.

Only interested in very recent designs since only those will be relevant:

Just for starters:

The Farr 400 has chines:



The Ker 40 and the none of the TP 50 (that I know off) has chines:


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Pelicano Missing In Action*



PCP said:


> So good news. You have a ELan Dealer and a Salona dealer on the States.
> I don't know if you had saw the recent posts about the Salona 33 and the Elan 320?
> 
> Here they are:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1346993-post5855.html
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1344385-post5838.html
> 
> I would say that the Salona is a better regatta boat and the Elan a better solo one. Both has dealers in the US and the Salona 33 is going to be at the Miami boat show. If I was you I would say to both dealers that you are undecided between the two boats and that you are going to race the boat. A motivated dealer can really bring the prices down
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, I saw the posts on the Elan 310, which is what made me realize that thinking about the 210 was the wrong way to think.  Will take a look at the Salona 33 (alas, not at the Miami boat show, though I wish I was in Miami right now), as well. Most of my sailing will be solo or d/h and not regattas. For regattas I've got the Laser or the Swan 42.


----------



## robelz

*Re: Pelicano Missing In Action*



MrPelicano said:


> Yes, I saw the posts on the Elan 310, which is what made me realize that thinking about the 210 was the wrong way to think.  Will take a look at the Salona 33 (alas, not at the Miami boat show, though I wish I was in Miami right now), as well. Most of my sailing will be solo or d/h and not regattas. For regattas I've got the Laser or the Swan 42.


If you consider Elan 320 and Salona 33, why not looking for a used Archambault 35? There are many on the market at a very good price and the build quality seems better to me. On top, it is a lot faster than those 2...


----------



## capt vimes

paulo - chines were developed in the open classes imoca 60 and VOR 70 first...
these boats have very definite performance criteria since they are optimized for fast downwind sailing and they are designed to a box rule which limits beam also... and that is the reason why all those boats have a fat butt, submerged transoms and vertical sides - to get the most beam at dwl... these boats are meant to be sailed as upright as possible with the least amount of heel...
but all these designs are not good to windward - period.
i posted once a polar from one of the open 60 (neutrogena it was) and the points of sail these boats operate are ~90° going from 50° to about 140° TWA:









when the VOR 70 got introduced in 2005-06 very few had hard chines and those which had, had them not very pronounced and very far aft and high...
the first imoca 60 with hard chines was safran from 2006: Projects - VPLP Design
from the same designers are now the latest and fastest generation open 60 banque populaire and macif, which do not show such pronounced chines - they have something like a tumble home...
Projects - VPLP Design

if we go away from the box rule boats of these classes and look at maxis - i know of only one which follows these designs and that is rambler 100 (looks like a blown up vor70 to me.. ) all the other maxis are rather slender and not that beamy hence better windward abilities but slower downwind...
we remember what happened this year in the sydney hobart race, where headwinds limited the former rambler...

in my opinion it is a question of the design envelope - you want to sail on all points of sail, or do you prefer fast downwind sailing only?


----------



## PCP

*Re: Pelicano Missing In Action*



MrPelicano said:


> Yes, I saw the posts on the Elan 310, which is what made me realize that thinking about the 210 was the wrong way to think.  Will take a look at the Salona 33 (alas, not at the Miami boat show, though I wish I was in Miami right now), as well. Most of my sailing will be solo or d/h and not regattas. For regattas I've got the Laser or the Swan 42.


On that size of boats I would also ask about First 35 prices. prices of boats are a function of many things, even more if you are in the US and one can be a much interesting deal than another. Probably for what you want the best boat is the Elan 320, it is also the one with more interior space and better storage. they have a sportier version lighter with a bigger keel.

Anyway regarding the First 35, that I think is going to be replaced soon, take into consideration that it make 3th on the the last ORCI World Championship.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Chines*



capt vimes said:


> ...
> in my opinion it is a question of the design envelope - you want to sail on all points of sail, or do you prefer fast downwind sailing only?


That's a simplistic approach. Yes chines are used mostly to make downwind sailing more effective and much less useful upwind. But even some very recent regatta boats that sail as much upwind as downwind and offshore racers for mixed conditions use chines, being the more known case the Farr 400 that is not a downwind boat.



Many other IRC racers and top cruiser-racers used for IRC and good overall performance and conditions use chines.

Some other top racing recent IRC designs with chines, from Farr, Botin, Judel-Vrolijk and Simonis:











The point here is how much it is possible to improve downwind sailing without prejudice of upwind sailing. That is the balance between the two that counts in what regards overall speed. Also how much we can improve sailing easiness without degrading too much performance in a way that the performance is better. That balance too is very important.

There is the misconception that the bigger the beam the better the boat will be downwind. In fact that is not true and I am not even sure that in absolute terms chines make a boat faster downwind, just easier and that can be translated in some cases in faster, but not always.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Pelicano Missing In Action*



robelz said:


> If you consider Elan 320 and Salona 33, why not looking for a used Archambault 35? There are many on the market at a very good price and the build quality seems better to me. On top, it is a lot faster than those 2...


Robelz - There's one A35 in North America (in San Francisco - I've been aboard that boat and spoken with the owner: not for sale). There's also one A31 in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, which is for sale, at a very good price. I've had my eye on that boat, seeing as the A31 is very competitive in the TransQuadra, and would certainly consider it (though would prefer a different keel). More to the point, however, is that the Elan 320 has a bit more cruising comfort that appeals to the wife, for whom anything too performance oriented strikes fear into her heart. 

I've raced on an Elan 40 in San Francisco Bay, and I can tell you that it was one well-built boat, and quite competitive under IRC (having won the Rolex Big Boat Regatta and finished second on other occasions). A bit heavy, perhaps, due to the interior comforts, but of course IRC rewards that. But it certainly took a beating in SF Bay and I never saw any indication that it suffered from that, in terms of stiffness or delamination, etc.

Best,

MrP


----------



## olianta

*Re: Chines, cruising and racing*



PCP said:


> I have posted this on another thread, that one already mentioned about chines:
> 
> I would like the collaboration of all regarding this subject, I mean if chines regarding solo boats, short crewed racing boats or long distance offshore racers seem to be a reality in modern top performance designs, in what regards top performance regatta boats things are not so clear and I would say that chines are not a performance option...or maybe they are and are not so widely used yet.
> 
> I would like to follow that trend here (regatta boats) and I ask the collaboration of all in what regards to have a look at new designs: are the chines an advantage in this case, or not? The answer relates in knowing if the chines relates with an absolute sailing performance or relates with a better control with a small loss of absolute performance, better control that in some cases can translate in better overall performance.
> 
> ]


Though I don't think I am qualified to express a competent opinion, I disagree that a hard chined hull will contribute to better control on a crusing boat. May be downwind in fresh wind when planing the boat will be more stable but this will not be in displacement mode which is most of the cases for a cruising boat. In other conditions and points of sail, a hard chined hull may punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort if they do not manage to match the right angle of heel and thus benefiting from the hard chine. Besides, I think that in light winds there will be more drag. I believe the soft chined hull is the most versatile hull form for crusing in all conditions and on all points of sail. And there are some practical reasons as well - for example, if you run aground and you want to move weight on one board (even hanging on the boom moved outboard) in order to get maximum heel, the hard chine will restrict the heel though it is desired in this particular case. 
My point of view is that a hard chined hull will be more efficient in terms of speed if "drived" properly by experienced sailors and may be will add more control in particular downwind fast sailing. I also think that the hard chines' benefits are still controversial and will not become a straightforward trend in racing. As far as cruising boats are concerned I remain sceptical that they will be accepted on the long term as better hull forms.

Regard
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Re: Chines, cruising and racing*



olianta said:


> Though I don't think I am qualified to express a competent opinion, I disagree that a hard chined hull will contribute to better control on a crusing boat. May be downwind in fresh wind when planing the boat will be more stable but this will not be in displacement mode which is most of the cases for a cruising boat. In other conditions and points of sail, a hard chined hull may punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort if they do not manage to match the right angle of heel and thus benefiting from the hard chine. ...


And why do you say that? do you think that Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour ( and some of the world's best Na that work for them) and many others would be making cruising boats with chines if that would make them "*punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort*"?

Those boats are designed to be easily sailed by inexperienced sailors and on those boats chines have nothing to do with planing speeds that almost never will be experienced on those sail boats and never with the typical cruiser to whom they point.

Contrary to what you think chines are there to make easy to put and maintain the boat on a "groove" and limiting heel. Putting the boat there is very easy: he will go easily to the chine and will stop heeling there. You have to try really hard to make the boat sail over the chine and that means an overpowered boat that will be making lots of drag and that should be reefed to sail faster and better.

Downwind the chines on the typical cruisers like the Beneteau are there to making sailing more easy, not for planing. They will very effectively limit any possibility of roll to very small angles while on a boat without chines, specially if it has a narrow hull, roll downwind in some occasions will be a concern an demand an experienced hand at the wheel to maintain it under control. With beamy cruising boats with chines like the Beneteau, you can sail downwind on autopilot on the conditions that would be challenging to a narrow boat.

Regarding reducing performance upwind, it all depend on the chines and hull design (on a previous post I posted some IRC racing boats with chines) but in what regards Beneteau's the hull design (and not only the chines) will limit heel and therefore upwind performance. Even so the cruising sail performance with very small angles of heel is surprisingly good as well as the speed. Of course, they are not performance boats neither the performance will match one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

"And why do you say that? do you think that Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour ( and some of the world's best Na that work for them) and many others would be making cruising boats with chines if that would make them "punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort"?"

If this is true, and it may be, then why does the new Farr designed Bavaria 51 have no chines? Is the Farr office behind the times. They put chines on their high performance boats. Why not here? Does Farr not know what he is doing?


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria's Chines*



bobperry said:


> "And why do you say that? do you think that Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour ( and some of the world's best Na that work for them) and many others would be making cruising boats with chines if that would make them "punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort"?"
> 
> If this is true, and it may be, then why does the new Farr designed Bavaria 51 have no chines? Is the Farr office behind the times. They put chines on their high performance boats. Why not here? Does Farr not know what he is doing?


Yes I believe that Farr know what he is doing and I even believe that if he has a free hand he would but chines on the Bavaria. Bavaria's clients are more conservative than any other European mass production brand and conservative clients take time to "like" new improvements. However I will gladdly bet with you that in less than 5 years we will see Bavarias with chines

Anyway as you know the type and shape of hull is more important that having chines or not and Bavaria's hulls are not globally that different than the other mass production builders, particularly Jeanneau and Hanse, chines or no chines

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

You could be right Paulo. I really know little about Bavaria's market target.

I think you make a very good point in differentiating chines for control and chines for boat speed. I remain a bit skeptical about the ability to push a chined cruiser hard uipwind. But perhaps you are not supposed to push one of these boat hard upwind. I would have to sail one myself to see what happens after that chine is immersed. While that distinct "shoulder" in the stability curve has its benefits I think there is also a down side to it when the boat is pushed beyond the shoulder.

Even on a high powered boat chines can help control. I raced a Tasar dinghy for a few years and it had chines. Off the wind the Tasar would plane quickly and effortlessly. One on a plane the Tasar became very stable and was very easy to drive. The round bilge Laser is not very stable on a plane.


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Chines*



PCP said:


> That's a simplistic approach. Yes chines are used mostly to make downwind sailing more effective and much less useful upwind. But even some very recent regatta boats that sail as much upwind as downwind and offshore racers for mixed conditions use chines, being the more known case the Farr 400 that is not a downwind boat.


yes it is...


> Many other IRC racers and top cruiser-racers used for IRC and good overall performance and conditions use chines.
> 
> Some other top racing recent IRC designs with chines, from Farr, Botin, Judel-Vrolijk and Simonis:
> 
> The point here is how much it is possible to improve downwind sailing without prejudice of upwind sailing. That is the balance between the two that counts in what regards overall speed. Also how much we can improve sailing easiness without degrading too much performance in a way that the performance is better. That balance too is very important.
> 
> There is the misconception that the bigger the beam the better the boat will be downwind. In fact that is not true and I am not even sure that in absolute terms chines make a boat faster downwind, just easier and that can be translated in some cases in faster, but not always.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


i think that the designers try hard to make the boats fast on every point of sail.. but all of this development derived from round the world racing boats always going with prevailing wind and currents...
and not only since the round-the-bouy-races have been introduced to the VOR designers seek a way to make those boats fast to windward without loosing their ability downwinds... hence the massive water ballast...
for sure those boats need to be easy on the helm for really fast downwind, because that is their main purpose - surfing the waves with 30+ knots...

what i tried to point out in my former post was essentially something else...
try to push a good downwind runner into a box which limits beam... you will get vertical sides and chines... 
and now think outside that box and then factor in fashion and "proved" design...
if i would go hard chines, i would ask myself, why are motorboat hulls so much different from sailboat hulls even if they go at the same speed (20-30 knots)?
i would take a completely different approach - like this (lifting strakes from the bow to the transom - i like the rig as well... ):
http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Project Amazon SNAME.pdf
or probably this - really pronounced lifting strakes:
The Universal Hull by Warwick Collins | My Wooden Boat of the Week
and both of them do have some resemblance - the V-bottom, no or very minor rocker with those strakes to the sides... and both hulls work(ed)...


----------



## capt vimes

and i forgot to mention that we talk here about planing hulls - and NOT hulls which only operate in displacement mode...
and now show me any of these mass-production cruisers with their hard chines aft ever reaching planing speeds... 
the racing derivates like all the pogos leave aside please... benetaus, jeanneus, bavaris, hanses and that kind of breed is what i am talking about...


----------



## bobperry

There is no question among designers that chines help a lot when you have a light, high powered boat operating off the wind where surfing or some type of borderline planing is possible. If you are sailing a boat at twice displ hull speed you need dead flat butts and a wide stern, just like a powerboat! This we know.

One problem in this thread is to continue to look at this like a 2 dimensional problem. It is a complex problem and simplified answers for one boat will not be the answers for another boat. I don't think there are any simplified answers.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Chines*



PCP said:


> There is the misconception that the bigger the beam the better the boat will be downwind. In fact that is not true and I am not even sure that in absolute terms chines make a boat faster downwind, just easier and that can be translated in some cases in faster, but not always.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


This is true. The fastest boats in a upwind-downwind course was the last America's Cup monohulls, and those boats are very narrow. Some are still sailing.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Chines*



capt vimes said:


> yes it is...
> 
> i think that the designers try hard to make the boats fast on every point of sail.. but all of this development derived from round the world racing boats always going with prevailing wind and currents...
> and not only since the round-the-bouy-races have been introduced to the VOR designers seek a way to make those boats fast to windward without loosing their ability downwinds... hence the massive water ballast...
> for sure those boats need to be easy on the helm for really fast downwind, because that is their main purpose - surfing the waves with 30+ knots...
> 
> what i tried to point out in my former post was essentially something else...
> try to push a good downwind runner into a box which limits beam... you will get vertical sides and chines...
> and now think outside that box and then factor in fashion and "proved" design...
> if i would go hard chines, i would ask myself, why are motorboat hulls so much different from sailboat hulls even if they go at the same speed (20-30 knots)?
> i would take a completely different approach - like this (lifting strakes from the bow to the transom - i like the rig as well... ):
> http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Project Amazon SNAME.pdf
> or probably this - really pronounced lifting strakes:
> The Universal Hull by Warwick Collins | My Wooden Boat of the Week
> and both of them do have some resemblance - the V-bottom, no or very minor rocker with those strakes to the sides... and both hulls work(ed)...


I do not understand very well your post. The fact that chines have been developed in solo racers as nothing with the fact of being used also on IRC racers. In fact the hull design is very different from the one of an Open boats and the chines too. The IRC racers are designed to sail with a lot more heel upwind and that makes the hull different as well as the chines (when they have chines).

Regarding Sponberg Open 60,

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Project Amazon SNAME.pdf

a much more narrower boat than the ones that were designed by the French Na, I remember well the story and his claims that the boat would be faster than any other. The boat did not work as previewed, never had been competitive, it was very dificult to sail solo and disappeared rapidly from the racing solo scene.

You have the idea that the Open 60's sail badly upwind. In fact without being a boat optimized for upwind sailing their velocity made good is pretty impressive for a boat maximized for downwind sailing. The angle to the wind is bigger than the one of a narrow boat but they compensate with a bigger power and speed some degrees off. Maybe you don't know that for many years the world sailing circumnavigation record against the prevailing wind belonged to an Open 60. Of course a VOR 70 is even better upwind than an Open 60 but not as good as a narrower boat optimized for upwind performance.

It is all a question of balance but IRC boats have to have a pretty good balance between upwind and downwind sailing otherwise they will not win races.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I agree with you. Beam per se is not fast. 

Look at any rating rule. Beam is always on the slow side of the equasion.
But sometimes beam means power, stability, sail carrying power. So in some cases more beam pays off with more boat speed.

Forget that hull beam can equal power. What if you could get power without increasing the beam of the hull? Look at the AC cats. They have beam but the get it by talking two extremely narrow hulls and spreading them apart. You don't see AC cats with beamy hulls.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Chines*



DiasDePlaya said:


> This is true. The fastest boats in a upwind-downwind course was the last America's Cup monohulls, and those boats are very narrow. Some are still sailing.


I don't think that is true, except under some conditions like for instance light winds. At the time they were very unsatisfied with the boats that were heavy and could not plan downwind. Certainly very fast upwind but not the best balance upwind/downwind.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Oceanis 41 - Sun Odyssey 409, two different concepts:*



bobperry said:


> You could be right Paulo. I really know little about Bavaria's market target.
> 
> I think you make a very good point in differentiating chines for control and chines for boat speed. I remain a bit skeptical about the ability to push a chined cruiser hard uipwind. But perhaps you are not supposed to push one of these boat hard upwind. I would have to sail one myself to see what happens after that chine is immersed. While that distinct "shoulder" in the stability curve has its benefits I think there is also a down side to it when the boat is pushed beyond the shoulder.
> 
> Even on a high powered boat chines can help control. I raced a Tasar dinghy for a few years and it had chines. Off the wind the Tasar would plane quickly and effortlessly. One on a plane the Tasar became very stable and was very easy to drive. The round bilge Laser is not very stable on a plane.


I know that on a high powered boats chines can help control. I am not sure if they can improve speed out of the one a better control of the boat would provide.

Regarding cruising boats and chines you cannot put all on the same bag. Even in what regards main mass market cruisers some of them (with chines) have very different hulls and sail characteristics.

From the Sense and Oceanis Beneteau line probably, taking away the new 38, the 41 is the more "sportive" and even so it is not a boat to be "pushed" upwind. You would not gain nothing except increasing drag and loss of speed putting its chine immersed.

Even on very fast performance boats like the Pogo 12.50 you don't push the boat upwind like a narrow boat. You would gain nothing in going as much as the boat can go upwind with a lot of heel. On boats like that you go a bit more out of the wind at a superior speed and in the end the VMG is about the same as a more traditional performance cruiser like the First 40 for example. Downwind and on a beam reach the Pogo will be faster.

Back to main market cruisers, if you compare the Jeanneau 409 with the Oceanis 41 you will find out that they have both chines but very different hulls and that the Jeanneau can take much more heel upwind and point a bit better. On the Benetau line if you want a better performance boat and one that points better you have the First line. On the Dufour the same, you have the performance line. The Jeanneau has only a line and perhaps is why the boat is an overall more balanced sailing boat.

Not saying that the Jeanneau is a better cruising boat than the Oceanis: Sailing decently, including upwind with little heel and a maximum of interior and cockpit space can be and certainly is what many sailors would prefer even if I would prefer the better sailing performance of the Jeanneau 409...but then I would prefer a Beneteau First to a Jeanneau. Different courses for different horses

Some pictures and movies that will help to understand what I am talking about and the differences between these two different mass production cruisers with chines.





















Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Looking at those photos I don't see the chines doing anything.
That last pic shows the boat dragging quite a bit of rudder angle.
Maybe he was falling off. Maybe the boat is not well balanced.
I see lots of wetted surface. I see boats dragging their sterns.
In that first pic there is not enough chine definition to do anything but satisfy the "fashion" guys.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> There is no question among designers that chines help a lot when you have a light, high powered boat operating off the wind where surfing or some type of borderline planing is possible. If you are sailing a boat at twice displ hull speed you need dead flat butts and a wide stern, just like a powerboat! This we know.....


As we know also that the problem is combining that motor boat hull shape with a shape that allows the boat to sail fast upwind

We also know that in what regards upwind / downwind overall better performance for a same length of boat there is not a big difference between the possible beam options and we also now that today overall faster boats are generally more beamier than some decades ago.

I believe that is due not only to lighter boats but also regarding what was learned regarding planing hulls. If the boat is too narrow it will not be able to generate the power needed to plan downwind and it will lose so much downwind that on the overall performance would not be a match.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Looking at those photos I don't see the chines doing anything.
> That last pic shows the boat dragging quite a bit of rudder angle.
> Maybe he was falling off. Maybe the boat is not well balanced.
> I see lots of wetted surface. I see boats dragging their sterns.
> In that first pic there is not enough chine definition to do anything but satisfy the "fashion" guys.


It seems that we see different things. On the two pictures on the water both boats, the Sun Odyssey and the Oceanis are sailing on what their chines allow. The Sun Odyssey is making force over the chine, the Oceanis close to it. The photos are there to show to you that those two boats are designed to sail upwind in a very different way.

Regarding the chine on the first picture maybe it is from the angle. In fact the chine is as well defined as in some racing boats



You give the idea (or you seem to think) that the Sun Odyssey sails badly. I don't think so. Post the polar speed of your last 46ft, the nice one that you have already posted here, and I think I can show to you that the correspondent Sun Odyssey 463 is a boat with a better sailing performance.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
Yes. I agree that chine is well defined. But it is not working. It is 30 metric thingies above the DWL. It can't be working if it is not in the watewr. At that heel angle it only adds wetted surface.

I don't know what 46'er you are referring to. I'm not fashionable. I don't think I have anything that is applicable in this environment.

I rarely shower. I smell like my dogs, I wear woolen shirts. My hair looks funny. I own two pair of shoes. I'm not Euro.

(I do have an amazing, very expensive hi-fi system probably cost as much as your yacht)

But I sure do like exchanging ideas with you. You are an amazing reference for whatever is new in European boats.

But it is my nature to be the devil's advocate.


----------



## robelz

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Yes. I agree that chine is well defined. But it is not working. It is 30 metric thingies above the DWL. It can't be working if it is not in the watewr. At that heel angle it only adds wetted surface.


Sorry, I think you aren't right here: The chines - even if the don't touch the water - allow the flat section to be wider what makes the boat stiffer...


----------



## bobperry

Rob:
Imagine shaving off that chine with a big grinder. It wouldn't take much. I'm not sure you would feel the difference and I'm not sure the boat would not be faster.

For some contrast you might look at the boats in the TP 52 class and the new Ker 43. Maybe take a look at some of the newest Reichel-Pugh boats.
These boats don't use chines. In fact the current popular stern shape is pretty much the opposite to what you would get with chines. These are round the buoys racers and designed for all round boat speed. They are very different boats compared to your Mom and Pop Euro cruiser but if chines were fast for all round performance they would have them.

Please don't think I am anti chine. I have designed many chine boats. I have been trying to say all along that there is an application for chines and there are applications where chines don't help. I am not generalizing. The attitude here for some is that "Chines are better for everything". I do not agree with that.


----------



## olianta

After giving a second thought to what I posted previously and reading all your posts I think that hard chines do not contribute as prevention from heeling. For example would the hard chines on a narrow hull sailboat make it stiffer than the same hull and ballast boat without chines? I don't think so. If caught by a gust the boat will heel past the chines and the latter will create just more drag. I think we saw a similar thing on the Swedish video regarding the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409, where at some point it heeled to starboard past the chine. And sailing in the groove on a hard chined boat will be more a matter of perfect sail trim, which is again more likely to be archieved by professional sailors than majority of cruisers. 

Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Chines*



bobperry said:


> ...
> For some contrast you might look at the boats in the TP 52 class and the new Ker 43. Maybe take a look at some of the newest Reichel-Pugh boats.
> These boats don't use chines. In fact the current popular stern shape is pretty much the opposite to what you would get with chines. These are round the buoys racers and designed for all round boat speed. ....


and that is why I say the chines are not there necessarily there to better sailing performance but to increase control. I don't believe a TP52 would be faster downwind with chines. If it was the case we would have seen some designers using them on those boats. Those boats are raced for a relatively short time with a big and expert crew and the increased control the chines would give at possibly the cost of a very small some loss of speed upwind doesn't pay off. They can control the boat even without the help of chines and the hull shape is what gives them the ability to go fast downwind on planing mode.

I agree that each case is a case and on different hulls chines are different and work at different heel angles. Regarding performance racers they are related with the best heel angle of the boat upwind, on cruisers they can be there for that, if they are performance cruisers or in the case of slower cruisers they can be there mostly to limit heel and to give a better boat control.

One of the reasons ker boats or TP 52 don't use chines is because they sail upwind with a lot of heel taking advantage of the power created by the big B/D ratio and big draft and for that they practically use all transom (that is designed for giving max hull form stability at that angle), I mean on the max heel position the transom is all sitting on the water so Chines make no sense and would only create drag.









bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Yes. I agree that chine is well defined. But it is not working.
> 
> 
> 
> It is 30 metric thingies above the DWL. It can't be working if it is not in the watewr. At that heel angle it only adds wetted surface.


On those beamy hulls with large transoms the waterline varies widely with heel on the transom. See, the chine is on the water and it is not needed much heel:







bobperry said:


> But I sure do like exchanging ideas with you. You are an amazing reference for whatever is new in European boats....I'm not Euro


Thanks. Regarding chines maybe you can give me some advise how these ones, on a very recent piece of American Yacht Naval architecture, work?



























The Hunter 40 has much less beam and a much narrower transom than the Oceanis 41 and will sail upwind with more heel, as the photos and video can confirm but the chine is practically at waterline so any amount of heel would have it submersed. I don't get it

I saw the video and I still don't understand how it works, I mean positively in what regards performance or control. It seems to be adding drag only. I would really like you to give me a help on this, being that a non Euro boat, maybe I am missing something






Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I'm not sure. I'll take a guess:

I think the chines on that Hunter are there to help give it speed under power. They certainly will contribute to stability but they are going to dig in at modest angles of heel and that means drag like any immersed transom.

Then there is the interior volume where it can be best used, i.e. right where the berth flat height is.

I kind of like that hull shape but it is a bit odd with those" super chines".

"American naval architecture is the same as European naval architecture. Same water. Same wind. Same laws of physics. Maybe less fashion.


----------



## olianta

*Re: Chines*

Thanks. Regarding chines maybe you can give me some advise how these ones, on a very recent piece of American Yacht Naval architecture, work?










Regards

Paulo[/QUOTE]

May be it works for less rolling when motoring in flat seas, sails dropped.

BTW, do you happen to know what are the cines of river/canal barges, do they look similar to the ones of this Hunter?

Regards 
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Re: Chines*



olianta said:


> ...
> May be it works for less rolling when motoring in flat seas, sails dropped.
> 
> BTW, do you happen to know what are the cines of river/canal barges, do they look similar to the ones of this Hunter?
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


No doubt they will work for that, also at anchor. In fact that looks like a motorboat displacement hull and that's why canal barges look like that. But it will add drag while sailing upwind and on this one you are right, that immersed chine will do nothing good to make sailing easier since it will be dificult to put the boat on a groove when you are sailing on top of the angle of the chine.



olianta said:


> After giving a second thought to what I posted previously and reading all your posts I think that hard chines do not contribute as prevention from heeling. For example would the hard chines on a narrow hull sailboat make it stiffer than the same hull and ballast boat without chines? I don't think so. If caught by a gust the boat will heel past the chines and the latter will create just more drag. I think we saw a similar thing on the Swedish video regarding the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409, where at some point it heeled to starboard past the chine. And sailing in the groove on a hard chined boat will be more a matter of perfect sail trim, which is again more likely to be archieved by professional sailors than majority of cruisers.
> 
> Rumen


There is little point in used chines on a narrow boat because the boat will sail at the most effective upwind heel point with a lot of heel and with almost if not all freeboard on the water and in that case the chine would be submersed. A little gain would be won regarding stiffness but it would not compensate drag. Only on the transom or very near chines would be of any use on a narrow boat.

Regarding the Sun Odyssey 409 it can effectively sail with a lot of heel before that chine hits the water and be effective. The hull is very different from the one on the Oceanis (or the Hunter) where the chine starts near the bow and goes around all hull. On the 409 it is only on the back of the boat:





Hard chines increase stiffness and if well done it will increase it where it is more useful, at the best upwind sailing heel angle. It helps also in what regards to put the boat in a groove there since it will offer resistance to pass over it. Boats sailed past its optimum heel angle will lose performance.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

If you want to see a very successful narow boat with chines you should check out RAGTIME, a Spencer design. This boat is a downwind rocket and has been winning for about 35 years.

I'll leave it to Paulo to dig up some pics of it.


----------



## olianta

*Re: Chines*



PCP said:


> No doubt they will work for that, also at anchor. In fact that looks like a motorboat displacement hull and that's why canal barges look like that. But it will add drag while sailing upwind and on this one you are right, that immersed chine will do nothing good to make sailing easier since it will be dificult to put the boat on a groove when you are sailing on top of the angle of the chine.
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Then I guess that the chines' effectiveness (without being punished by increased drag) depends on their location, extent of pronouncement and most of all by the angle of heel, the latter being dependant by many other factors. That's why I think that the no chines hulls are more versatile. And versatility is the most practical goal for a cruiser sailboat.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Re: Chines*



olianta said:


> Then I guess that the chines' effectiveness (without being punished by increased drag) depends on their location, extent of pronouncement and most of all by the angle of heel, the latter being dependant by many other factors. That's why I think that the no chines hulls are more versatile. And versatility is the most practical goal for a cruiser sailboat.
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


On the first part you are going very well...then you messed up

Yes it is easier to design a hull without chines than with chines, I mean a good one with effective chines and it is also true that different hulls will have optimum chimes in different locations but sailing versatility has nothing to do with it.

Both on the Oceanis and on the sun Odyssey the chines will not interfere with the sailing ability till the optimum heel angle upwind is reached. The boat will be less effective past that angle and the chines are not to be passed but reaching that point of optimum heeling those chines will increase the stiffness of the boat and will help to prevent passing it, maintaining the boat on an optimum groove making sailing easier for a beginner or a cruiser on autopilot.

The boat will tell you very effectively when the optimum heeling angle is reached. You really have to try hard to pass over the chine...and you can almost hear the boat insulting your sailing abilities for trying it

That is not the case of the Hunter 40 that has very good chines to improve the boat stability while motoring or just downwind but that will create drag and hull instability at any significant amount of heel.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

bobperry said:


> If you want to see a very successful narow boat with chines you should check out RAGTIME, a Spencer design. This boat is a downwind rocket and has been winning for about 35 years.
> 
> I'll leave it to Paulo to dig up some pics of it.


I can remember ragtime, but never cared about her hull at that time... 
Nevertheless if i look at her hull now, it reminds me strongly on the boats i posted previously - v shaped hull with the chines more or less used as lifting strakes...


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> I can remember ragtime, but never cared about her hull at that time...
> Nevertheless if i look at her hull now, it reminds me strongly on the boats i posted previously - v shaped hull with the chines more or less used as lifting strakes...


Please Vimes, put that picture smaller. It is taken the thread out of configuration.

That hull seems pretty dated to me. If the boat still wins it is because it has not much of a competition. Some fast hulls (for the time) had those chines. Vand de Stadt use them on Black Soo in 1957. I don't think that for many years now nobody relevant is designing a hull with that kind of chines, for performance or for cruising and for a good reason.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

*Re: Chines*



PCP said:


> On the first part you are going very well...then you messed up
> 
> Yes it is easier to design a hull without chines than with chines, I mean a good one with effective chines and it is also true that different hulls will have optimum chimes in different locations but sailing versatility has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Both on the Oceanis and on the sun Odyssey the chines will not interfere with the sailing ability till the optimum heel angle upwind is reached. The boat will be less effective past that angle and the chines are not to be passed but reaching that point of optimum heeling those chines will increase the stiffness of the boat and will help to prevent passing it, maintaining the boat on an optimum groove making sailing easier for a beginner or a cruiser on autopilot.
> 
> The boat will tell you very effectively when the optimum heeling angle is reached. You really have to try hard to pass over the chine...and you can almost hear the boat insulting your sailing abilities for trying it
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Then it means that the chines' purpose is to put limitations on your manner of sailing., acting as rails on a tram - you get punished if you derail, tram gets insulted . Like a modern car that alerts you if you cross the incessant line on the road. Do you think this feature is useful regarding sailing boats in the open sea? I do not want to adjust my sailing to the chines because I do not think they are the final word for optimal sailing.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## olianta

bobperry said:


> If you want to see a very successful narow boat with chines you should check out RAGTIME, a Spencer design. This boat is a downwind rocket and has been winning for about 35 years.
> 
> I'll leave it to Paulo to dig up some pics of it.


Thank you! This was new for me. 
It supports the point that chines matter even on narrow hulls in downwind planing mode. 




Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Re: Chines*



olianta said:


> Then it means that the chines' purpose is to put limitations on your manner of sailing., acting as rails on a tram - you get punished if you derail, tram gets insulted :..


It seems you really have some difficulty on this. Yes your way of sailing should be adapted to each boat characteristics and not otherwise.

Each boat has an optimum way regarding being sailed effectively. Not all are the same. Some are more effective upwind with more heel, other with less.

If a boat does not only reminds the sailor about the better and more efficient heeling angle but also makes easier to find it and makes difficult bad and less efficient sailing, preventing him to pass that angle it is worse or less flexible than a boat that does not pass any information to the sailor?

Let me remind you that on top of all this that chine increases stiffness at the more efficient angle of heel, making the boat go slightly faster.

It beats me how you can see any of this as negative but I will insist no more, have it your own way

Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

capt vimes said:


> I can remember ragtime, but never cared about her hull at that time...
> Nevertheless if i look at her hull now, it reminds me strongly on the boats i posted previously - v shaped hull with the chines more or less used as lifting strakes...


Downwind about the lift I agree 100%. Upwind, when heeled, the leeward chine will be underwater most of the time, so it will not work, but I guess this will not be detrimental to the performance on such a narrow hull.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## olianta

*Re: Chines*



PCP said:


> It seems you really have some difficulty on this. Yes your way of sailing should be adapted to each boat characteristics and not otherwise.
> 
> Each boat has an optimum way regarding being sailed effectively. Not all are the same. Some are more effective upwind with more heel, other with less.
> 
> If a boat does not only reminds the sailor about the better and more efficient heeling angle but also makes easier to find it and makes difficult bad and less efficient sailing, preventing him to pass that angle it is worse or less flexible than a boat that does not pass any information to the sailor?
> 
> Let me remind you that on top of all this that chine increases stiffness at the more efficient angle of heel, making the boat go slightly faster.
> 
> It beats me how you can see any of this as negative but I will insist no more, have it your own way
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Ok Paulo. We disagree. But this is a more philosophical disagreement. And I think also that no chines hull will deliver better information to the sailor who sails his boat badly.

But I am grateful to all valuable information and points you made about the chines and that you raised the polemics on chines on this thread that I follow much more than any other threads. Such topics are very enlightening and make one think and express opinions even when one may be wrong (talking about me). Otherwise if you are not qualified or enlightened you may just stare at the chines and think that they look cool. and that would be all.

Regards
Rumen


----------



## PCP

*Chines*



capt vimes said:


> and i forgot to mention that we talk here about planing hulls - and NOT hulls which only operate in displacement mode...
> and now show me any of these mass-production cruisers with their hard chines aft ever reaching planing speeds...
> the racing derivates like all the pogos leave aside please... benetaus, jeanneus, bavaris, hanses and that kind of breed is what i am talking about...


Sorry, I did not saw this post and that's why I did not understood well the next one

Yes, the cruisers that are designed to reach planing speed are not many but several performance cruisers are: All the JPK, Archambault, all the Pogo cruisers, Cigale and many more but you are right pointing out that is not the case with Beneteaus or the typical mass production cruiser or even the typical mass production performance cruiser.

But I guess that by now You have already understood what I am trying to say: The chines on Benetau also serve to increase boat stiffness at the best upwind angle and make sailing easier but they are not there to facilitate planing and are not designed the same way the ones used on a planing boat are.

Chines, If well designed, on a cruising boat or in a racing boat can increase stiffness and make sailing easier but the similitude stops there. The way a hull is designed and the way chines are used is not the same on a boat designed to plan and on a cruising boat that sails in displacement mode.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Chines*



olianta said:


> Downwind about the lift I agree 100%. Upwind, when heeled, the leeward chine will be underwater most of the time, so it will not work, but I guess *this will not be detrimental to the performance on such a narrow hull*.
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


It will be less detrimental on a narrow boat.

The best example you can find of those type hulls are on the last America's cup mono-hull where on the last boats the hull has become more box like but where a hard chine was avoided. That was a desperate attempt to gain hull form stiffness on such a narrow boat (and it worked) but if they would not have been limited by max beam they would have just made a beamier boat.



Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Rumen:
That's what I was thinking.
Kind of like the little wheels you add to a kids first bike until he learns to balance the bike. We call them "training wheels".

Paulo:
RAGTIME has been upgraded and turbo'd and remains cometitive in downhill races. I think you should do some research into West Coast racing in the US before you comment on the qualioty of competition Rags has faced.

I had a long conversation with Mark Mills today. Mark did his internship in my office a few years back ( seems like a few). We remian good friends. We had a good talk about chines. Like me he feels they are far moere about fashion than they are about substance on the current group of Mom and Pop boats. He did put chines on his new 30' sportboat. We discussed chine geometries. Mark uses Computational Fluid Dynamic to help analyze his hulls but he said the CFD is of no use in evaluating the chines.


----------



## olianta

bobperry said:


> Rumen:
> That's what I was thinking.
> Kind of like the little wheels you add to a kids first bike until he learns to balance the bike. We call them "training wheels".


And once you learn to balance you take them off (with the rough grinder) because they hinder your counter steering.

Rumen


----------



## capt vimes

Yeah - ragtime won her division in the 2009 sydney hobart...
Not to bad for a 65 ft and 45 year old wooden boat, don't you think?


----------



## PCP

bobperry;1379249.... said:


> I had a long conversation with Mark Mills today. Mark did his internship in my office a few years back ( seems like a few). We remian good friends. We had a good talk about chines. Like me he feels they are far moere about fashion than they are about substance on the current group of Mom and Pop boats. He did put chines on his new 30' sportboat. ..


Yes, I think that the chines on the C&C 30 is a first for him. He designs mostly IRC racers or top cruiser-racers that as I have are the boats were chines are less useful.

Chines come and were developed on solo racers. It is not surprising that the ones that had developed them and use them for many years in racing boats are the ones with a better grasp over them and also the ones that use them on cruising boats. That's for example the case with Marc Lombard and Finot/Conq, the ones that have designed many 40 class racers, many Open60's and that also design the Jeanneau line (Marc lombard) and several Benetaus, including the 41 and the 38 (Finot Conq).

Another one that designs Open boats and class racers and also use chines on cruising boats is Rob Humphreys.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

I find this discussion about chines very interesting. And it seems to me that –once again- there is not a single answer. 

On one hand there’s the Hunter 40’ concept, a boat that certainly is not designed to sail well but especially to be comfortable under power and at anchor. These chines will also add a significant amount of volume in the aft cabins, which also perfectly fits the specific program of this boat.

On the other hand there’s the “open” formula racing yachts, designed to be as fast as possible within the limits of a box rule and that nowadays all have sharp chines. 

Sailing one of these, albeit a cruising version, I can confirm Paulo’ analysis that a well designed, beamy and chined hull gives a huge form stability, which also permits to save on ballast and thus on weight. Especially when they also fit a very deep keel (3m on our Pogo 12.50 and therefore swinging).

I think we can all agree that this concept boosts performance because the low weight, reduced heel and very flat aft sections allow to plane early, even starting from a close reach.

And I confirm once again that this does not impair upwind performance. We are as fast –I’d rather say as slow- as almost any other as long as we don’t try to point. In other words: the VMG is as good -or as bad- as it gets with almost any other design. Except in very choppy conditions, because of wave drag, as Paulo explained in a much earlier post (I certainly hope you didn’t delete that one, Paulo!).
So if I quite dislike sailing upwind, it’s not because we’re slower but only because we know how much more fun we would have when bearing down, even a little.

But even in the context of non-planing Bénéteaus, Sun Odysseas, Hanses etc. I feel chines also can give added value, other than extra space in the aft cabins.

First, the ability to fit twin rudders further apart and therefore more efficiently, because of the much flatter aft section. I hate them when maneuvering because there’s almost no prop wash, but when sailing they give much better control and also demand less effort from the autopilot, especially downwind. This is certainly an important feature from an easy cruising point of view.

Second, as soon as the heel allows the sharp chines to “bite”, the point of lateral resistance moves aft and strongly reduces the weather helm caused by heeling. This once again results in better control, requiring less effort.

Third, these boats indeed don’t like to be heeled “over the chine” and will clearly let you know by slowing down, making leeway and –if you really didn’t take the message- rounding up very, very slowly. As my 470 dinghy coach teached me a long time ago: “sail the boat under the mast”. In other words: avoid excessive heel, reef early. Once again a useful feature for easy cruising.

So if we agree that most comfort cruisers don’t like to sail close hauled in choppy seas any more than I do, I feel well designed chined hulls do have more significant advantages than only “fashion”, added interior volume or less rolling under power or at anchor.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## bobperry

"Chines come and were developed on solo racers"

Get real Paulo. Have you never seen a Star Class sailboat? Chines have been around forever. We had chines before anyone knew what a "solo racer" was. Should I list the succesful chine boats over the last 100 years? It willbe a long list. I sailed an OK Dinghy when I was a kid. It was a good boat. It had chines. This was 1963.

"designed to be as fast as possible within the limits of a box rule and that nowadays all have sharp chines."

The TP52 is the most succesful of the box rule classes and they do not have chines. Be careful how you use the term "box rule" it is very specific. In fact the sterns of the fastest TP52's are what I'd call "anti-chine". Keep in mind these boats have to race upwind and down.

"On the other hand there’s the “open” formula racing yachts, designed to be as fast as possible within the limits of a box rule and that nowadays all have sharp chines. "

Yes, I agree and that is because these boat are designed to be sailed off the wind predominantly. They have huge rigs and can be pushed to planing speed by skilled crews thus making the chines very effective for over hull speed performance off the wind.


----------



## PCP

olianta said:


> *QUOTE=bobperry :Rumen:
> That's what I was thinking.
> Kind of like the little wheels you add to a kids first bike until he learns to balance the bike. We call them "training wheels".*
> 
> And once you learn to balance you take them off (with the rough grinder) because they hinder your counter steering.
> 
> Rumen


Yes, that is a good description and it comes to the encounter of what I have been saying: Even more than speed they are there to make sailing easier and that's why they are mostly used on solo racing boats were a solo sailor needs all help he can get and not in many top many racing crewed boats were a big and expert crew does not need the help of chines in what regards control and as they can introduce drag, for them the trade off can be a negative one.

That's also why they make sense in cruising boats were a solo or short crewed (and sometimes inexperienced) will gladly accept all help they can get in what regards easiness of sailing.

Regarding performance cruisers, if they are sailed or raced by a top crew, their use (those little wheels) can be dispensed but if the same boat is sailed by a short crew or solo then that help can be translated in a superior performance (like on the solo racers) because that solo sailor, with that extra help, will be able to exploit better the boat performance and actually go faster.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

How do you "dispense" the chines? Rules don't let you throw things overboard while racing.

" Hey wait a minute,,,,Didn't you guys have chines at the beginning of the race?"


----------



## PCP

*Chines*



bobperry said:


> "Chines come and were developed on solo racers"
> 
> Get real Paulo. Have you never seen a Star Class sailboat? Chines have been around forever. We had chines before anyone knoew what a "solo racer" was.
> ....
> The TP52 is the most succesful of the box rule classes and they do not have chines. Be careful how you use the term "box rule" it is very specific. In fact the sterns of the fastest TP52's are what I'd call "anti-chine".


There is here a big confusion and I only understood why you were talking about chines to gain interior space in cruising boats when we talked about the Hunter 40 that use that old type of chines used on the 50's and 60's (on the waterline). I was never referring to those chines but to modern ones that started to be use some years back and that in fact were developed on solo racers. They are not used the same way regarding the hull shape.

Regarding TP52 and top crewed racing boats not using chines I have been saying that for a while and if you see my last post regarding your example of the two little wheels example you can see why. Let me remember how this discussion of chines started:



PCP said:


> I have posted this on another thread, that one already mentioned about chines:
> 
> I would like the collaboration of all regarding this subject, I mean if chines regarding solo boats, short crewed racing boats or long distance offshore racers seem to be a reality in modern top performance designs, in what regards top performance regatta boats things are not so clear and I would say that chines are not a performance option...or maybe they are and are not so widely used yet.
> 
> *I would like to follow that trend here (regatta boats) and I ask the collaboration of all in what regards to have a look at new designs: are the chines an advantage in this case, or not? The answer relates in knowing if the chines relates with an absolute sailing performance or relates with a better control with a small loss of absolute performance, better control that in some cases can translate in better overall performance.*
> 
> Only interested in very recent designs since only those will be relevant:
> 
> Just for starters:
> 
> The Farr 400 has chines:
> 
> 
> 
> The Ker 40 and the none of the TP 50 (that I know off) has chines:


I have been trying to explain what is obvious to me and that you have made clear with that example of the 2 little auxiliary wheels.

The interesting point for me is to know is what is at bold in the quoted post:to know if in racing crewed boats designed to have a balanced performance upwind and downwind, like the regatta boats for IRC or One design races, the chines are useful or not.

The rest is history, I mean their use in solo racers and cruisers are in plain view and they are used by the best NA with experience in chines. The interesting discussion is if they are useful on pure racing boats with a full crew and a balanced performance. That is where there are some boats with chines and many some without them. There is where the discussion is interesting.

By the way, the TP52 championship is sailed regatta style and has as much upwind sailing as downwind sailing. They can compete with narrower boats if they want. Designers don't make them because they would lose too much on the downwind legs regarding to what they can gain on the upwind ones.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> How do you "dispense" the chines? Rules don't let you throw things overboard while racing.
> 
> " Hey wait a minute,,,,Didn't you guys have chines at the beginning of the race?"


Yes that is why boats used for racing and cruising or crewed racing and also solo racing has to have a compromise regarding chines while the ones only for top crewed racing in regatta style (upwind and downwind) don't need any compromise regarding their use: They allow to go faster or not, independently of making sailing easier or not.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## EricKLYC

The TP52's are very probably the most succesful "box" designs, but only for fully crewed daysailing up- and downwind between buoys. Without a nice clubhouse to chill down and a good hotel to recover, few of these crews would ever make it two days in a row.

So let's be serious Bob, let's not compare apples and pears. There's box rules and box rules. 

Unless we ever see a TP52 competing in the Route du Rhum or Vendée Globe, this design tells us very little about the possible advantages for fast but easy and shorthanded cruising, probably 99% of the boat market.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## bobperry

I think you guys are selling chines. You act like car salesmen selling a tacked on spoiler. Are the chines built in China? Is that why you call them "chines"?

I'll say it slowly this time:
I have designed many boats with chines.
Once again:
I have designed many boats with chines.

This is my business. I am not a hobbyist.
I understand chines.
I understand chines

I have owned chined boats.
I have owned chined boats

There is a place for chines.I have said that all along.
I do not believe chines belong on every Mom and Pop boat.
If you guys need chines or training wheels so you can sail comfortably that's wonderful.

I am not interested in handicapping my own design with training wheels. I wil gladly let someone else design for the beginners who don't like to heel. If you need chines to be in fashion then great. Be in fashion. We know how long fashion lasts. Still got those Elton John shoes?

Your view is myopic. There are shapes for every kind of boat. Some benefit by chines and some don't. I agree. A high powered sport boat like the Farr 400 can benefit from chines. I guess. I don't hear much about the boat. You pick your performance target and you decide, "Will chines help the boat?" Some times the answer is "No. They will hurt the boat."

I am now going to leave this conversation. You see what you want to see. That works for you. Good. I work every day designing new boats. I have to do far more than speculate and guess. I have to produce and be very confident that what I produce works. That's the difference.


Tsia chien
Shin nien qui ler

Eric:
Unless we ever see a TP52 competing in the Route du Rhum or Vendé"e Globe, this design tells us very little about the possible advantages for fast but easy and shorthanded cruising, probably 99% of the boat market"

That is a really stupid statement. TP 52's were design for triangle courses. Does "99% of the boat market" sail in a Route du Rhum environment? I don't even know what to say to a statement like that. I do but I'm not going to.
Tsai chien
Gong hay fat choy


----------



## PCP

*Real performance and compensated one*



capt vimes said:


> Yeah - ragtime won her division in the 2009 sydney hobart...
> Not to bad for a 65 ft and 45 year old wooden boat, don't you think?


I am used of that type of comments on other threads not on this one. You should know that any old slow boat can win on compensated time and that the number of years of a boat counts to lower the rating. what I said refereed clearly to absolute speed and performance and not what an old boat can do under handicap rules.

That boat was pretty incredible at is time. Today it is still fast but way outperformed in real time by racers of the same size and even by much smaller ones. That was what I wanted to say when I said it was not competitive. I was talking about design and absolute performance.

Regarding that race 8th Sydney Hobarth, the Ragtime (65ft boat) had done it in 2 days 10hour and 38 minutes more about 11 hours than a a Reichel Pugh 62 (1day 23hours and 6minutes) . And it was not the only case, many smaller boats have done better. Here are some of them: a Reichel Pugh 63 in 1day 23hours and 30minutes a Reichel Pugh 55 in 2days 57m, a TP52 in 2days 1hour and 1 minute and many more.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

bobperry said:


> ...
> That is a really stupid statement. TP 52's were design for triangle courses. Does "99% of the boat market" sail in a Route du Rhum environment? I don't even know what to say to a statement like that. I do but I'm not going to.
> ...


that is also not entirely correct...
TP stands for TransPacific and those class was developed to do both - round the can and offshore races...
in the past years it all moved towards the buoy races but they still compete in offshore races every now and then like the sydney hobart...
from the classes webpage:


> TP52's have won most every bluewater regatta they have entered including; overall wins in the 2004 Bermuda Race, 2004 Chicago to Mackinac and the 2003 Transpac race to Hawaii.


Transpac 52 class | History of the TP52 Class

paulo - just kidding, don't take it seriously... 
oh - btw, you might like this neat TP52:


----------



## robelz

bobperry said:


> I had a long conversation with Mark Mills today. Mark did his internship in my office a few years back ( seems like a few). We remian good friends. We had a good talk about chines. Like me he feels they are far moere about fashion than they are about substance on the current group of Mom and Pop boats. He did put chines on his new 30' sportboat. We discussed chine geometries. Mark uses Computational Fluid Dynamic to help analyze his hulls but he said the CFD is of no use in evaluating the chines.


38? Shorthanded Cruiser-Racer | Mills Design

So you think the chines are just a popular gag made by MM?


----------



## bobperry

No talk needed.


----------



## PCP

*Chines and rude self centered opinions*



bobperry said:


> I do not believe chines belong on every Mom and Pop boat.
> If you guys need chines or training wheels so you can sail comfortably that's wonderful.
> I am not interested in handicapping my own design with training wheels. I wil gladly let someone else design for the beginners who don't like to heel. If you need chines to be in fashion then great. Be in fashion. We know how long fashion lasts. Still got those Elton John shoes?


Pretty contradicting argument:

First you say that chines are not for cruising boats than you say that they are for beginner sailors that need help in controlling the boat (admitting that they have a relevant paper in boat control) and then say that they are only for fashion
Fact is that by what you say and giving your comparison of chines on a cruising boat with training heels, they have a relevant paper in cruising boats that tend to be bigger and faster while continuing to be solo sailed or sailed with a little help from the wife.
I don't care if you use chimes or not in your designs but saying that they handicap the performance of a cruising boat is not only contradictory with what you say as it makes no sense: If they are only fashionable and serves for nothing how they can handicap the performance of a cruiser? Besides facts shows that almost all racing boats designed today for solo racing use them so in fact that better control even if it results in a slightly loss of performance (and that is disputable) can in reality make the racer go faster and with better reason will make a cruising boat go faster.
Facts show that a solo racer will benefit from chines in what regards performance added by the superior easiness of sailing and you think that a cruiser, sailed with less experienced and also short crew, will not also benefit in performance from that superior easiness? Or do you think that all that design solo racers with chine do that also for fashionable reasons? That does not make sense since they are the ones that design the winning boats.
And what is this all about?


bobperry said:


> I think you guys are selling chines. You act like car salesmen selling a tacked on spoiler. Are the chines built in China? Is that why you call them "chines"? I'll say it slowly this time:I have designed many boats with chines.
> Once again:
> I have designed many boats with chines. This is my business. I am not a hobbyist.
> I understand chines. I understand chines. I have owned chined boats. I have owned chined boats.&#8230;
> Your view is myopic. &#8230;
> I rarely shower. I smell like my dogs, I wear woolen shirts. My hair looks funny. I own two pair of shoes. I'm not Euro.
> 
> (I do have an amazing, very expensive hi-fi system probably cost as much as your yacht)
> 
> But I sure do like exchanging ideas with you. You are an amazing reference for whatever is new in European boats.
> Tsia chien Shin nien qui ler&#8230;Gong hay fat choy


I don't need you patronizing me. I am interested in facts and fact is that you design nice looking boats and had in the past a relevant paper in what regards evolution of sailing boats but I am nor particularly interested in what you do now. Regarding chines I have read several opinions from NA that work in their development regarding their use in top racing solo boats, your opinion is one more but I would say that one thing is to use chines occasionally other thing is to develop them in a modern way in a racing context. Obviously I am far more interested on the opinions and on the use that those NAs are giving to them and in the way they are using what they have learned in racing development to improve their cruising designs, than on the opinion of someone that think they are a fashion.
More than in opinions and theory I am interested in facts and analyzing them. Facts show that modern chines are used by all top solo racing sailboats designs and are used for several functions. Facts show that those designers, the ones that have more experience with modern chines, started to use them also in their cruising boats, mainly to make them easier to sail and therefore faster for the average crewed sailboat and to all short crew sailboats. These are facts and are evident.
More than what is evident already I am interested in the frontier in what regards modern use of chines and what is not evident yet: If a regatta racing boat maximized for overall performance with a full crew will benefit with the use or modern chines or not. That is the interesting subject because reality shows that the best designers, contrary to solo racing boats and in some extent cruising, are divided about it in what regards performance and some are using them others not. I don't care if they use chines or not I am interested in the effectiveness of them (or not) in what regards pure performance in a boat sailed by a big and expert crew.

Regarding your participation on this thread you are welcome if you abandon that attitude kind off : I am the one I know it all and other opinions or other ways of designing sailboats (even if they perform better than yours) are wrong and the boats just fashionable or plain wrong. And also abandon the rudeness that kind of self centered vision implies and that you express with crude words. For that type of rude talk, bitter discussion and insulting language you have other threads, not this one.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> No talk needed.


More of the same?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> 38? Shorthanded Cruiser-Racer | Mills Design
> 
> So you think the chines are just a popular gag made by MM?




Very nice design, but one more that sold is soul to fashion

*"A chined high-performance Cruiser-Racer optimised for a couple....The resulting design would has high initial stability without crew on the rail making it a pleasure to shorthand and cruise, and offers exceptional reaching performance, important to the non-racing cruisers and offshore racers alike."*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Ragtime*



capt vimes said:


> ....
> paulo - just kidding, don't take it seriously...
> ...]


sorry if I was too harsh but I was pissed with the rudeness that was creeping on this thread. I try not to make a point on my opinions and try to adapt them to facts and reality. I am here to share but most of all to learn with you all.

One of the best things regarding this thread is that it has joined very interesting and knowledgeable people, sailors that are not only interested in boat design but that actually sail or race top boats that are in the edge of cruising and racing development. Their opinions, knowledge and participation has permitted us all to have a better understanding of the advantages or disadvantages associated with new sailing design developments.

Regarding Ragtime, a truly fantastic 62ft boat for its time, designed in New Zealand by Jonh Spencer, its hard chines have also to due with the material used to built it: Plywood. If those chines were slightly rounded, like they are on the last monohul America's cup boats, I am not sure if the overall performance would be better, probably yes and almost certainly better upwind.

*"Ragtime began in 1964 as a yacht named Infidel and eventually made her way to California after being excluded from races in New Zealand because of her light construction. She is built of plywood and has hard chines as a consequence. The Long Beach Syndicate made history as Ragtime was first to finish in the 1973 Transpac."*

Here you have some great movies with that boat:











Regards

Paulo


----------



## olianta

*Re: Chines and rude self centered opinions*



PCP said:


> Regarding your participation on this thread you are welcome if you abandon that attitude kind off : I am the one I know it all and other opinions or other ways of designing sailboats (even if they perform better than yours) are wrong and the boats just fashionable or plain wrong. And also abandon the rudeness that kind of self centered vision implies and that you express with crude words. For that type of rude talk, bitter discussion and insulting language you have other threads, not this one.


Paulo, I don't think Mr.Perry is patronizing us, neither that his language is rude and insulting (the exception being the qualification "stupid" regarding Eric's opinion at the end of post 6029 just before the text in mandarin). It is obvious that Mr.Perry has strong yopinions on the issue of chines (like you do) and he expresses them in a more straightforward and less explanatory manner. I believe that your last sentence of your quoted post "For that type of rude talk, bitter discussion and insulting language you have other threads, not this one" will not benefit this thread if Mr. Perry decides not to post anymore here. I will miss him and I believe I will not be the only one. He is a well known designer and I do not accept the depreciating view that this qualification is relevant only to the history of yacht design.

Regards
Rumen


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## bobperry

Thanks Rumen. I appreciate your support. I'll watch the thread because I like being kept updated on the new boats. But I'll stay quiet. There isn't any more I need to say. Paulo's words are fine. He obviously feels threatened. I didn't intend that. No offense taken.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Chines and rude self centered opinions*



olianta said:


> Paulo, I don't think Mr.Perry is patronizing us, neither that his language is rude and insulting (the exception being the qualification "stupid" regarding Eric's opinion at the end of post 6029 just before the text in mandarin). It is obvious that Mr.Perry has strong yopinions on the issue of chines (like you do) and he expresses them in a more straightforward and less explanatory manner. I believe that your last sentence of your quoted post "For that type of rude talk, bitter discussion and insulting language you have other threads, not this one" will not benefit this thread if Mr. Perry decides not to post anymore here. I will miss him and I believe I will not be the only one. He is a well known designer and I do not accept the depreciating view that this qualification is relevant only to the history of yacht design.
> 
> Regards
> Rumen


I don't have strong opinions about chines. I am interesting in facts and in why the best world's designers are using them in racing boats and cruising boats and also why on pure racing regatta top crewed boats there seems to be mixed opinions about its effectiveness.

I guess that call my view about chines as myopic is close to stupid and if not insulting his ways are rude and express the opinion of someone that thinks that knows more about it not only than me but more than all other top Nas that use them in cruising boats.

Regarding this : *"I do not accept the depreciating view that this qualification is relevant only to the history of yacht"*, I certainly had not said that. I said that personally I have no particular interest in his recent work, that contrary to older one is not pushing the boundaries of sailing development.

His opinion and his views on the subject regarding the use of modern chines in cruising boast (fashionable as he sees them) have the relevance of coming from a NA but they are not more relevant than the ones from all the top contemporary Nas that design them on their cruising boats.

It is not about Mr Perry opinion, but about the way he expresses it and the way he wants to convince all that his opinion is more relevant than other's opinions, namely regarding all those top Na that use them on their cruising boats and also with the rudeness he expresses it.

Regards

Paulo


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## olianta

*Re: Chines and rude self centered opinions*



PCP said:


> It is not about Mr Perry opinion, but about the way he expresses it and the way he wants to convince all that his opinion is more relevant than other's opinions, namely regarding all those top Na that use them on their cruising boats and also with the rudeness he expresses it.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


As far as I know Bob Perry was the only NA actively participating in this thread (and may be we have lost him as contributor, which is a pity). The fact that Bob will follow the your thread means that "myopic" was not used in the sense of stupid as you get it. I believe Bob never meant that, otherwise he would not follow a thread run by someone whom he thinks stupid. As I stated yesterday, Paulo, you are very smart to provide lots of valuable information and to raise issues alongside the many interesting boats you post about, so let's not overreact when polemics gets hot. 
Rumen


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## PCP

*Sq 25*

Robelz posted about it recently and there are more posts about the boat when it was in design phase.

The boat result of a design competition won by Marc-Oliver von Ahlen that designed a wonderful boat, very versatile and one that can be made in many keel configurations. A modern design with very good sail performance taking into account its fantastic interior for a 25ft boat. A true coastal or lake cruiser with a comfortable interior that even has a true head. Amazing boat:


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## PCP

*Benetau Oceanis 38*

The Oceanis 38 and the Dehler 38 made were both boats that made the unanimity in what regards sailboat contests on both sides of the Atlantic.

We have plenty of images of the Dehler 38 sailing but not so many regarding the Oceanis. Here are two videos that shows the boat sailing with light to medium wind. Pity we don't have any with the boat sailing downwind with strong wind. the European boat testers were surprised with the stability and boat performance of the boat on that situation, the one where the boat excels.

Good all around sailing performance, being the comparative worse one on very light winds and an innovative and versatile interior is what made this boat a winner.


----------



## olianta

it seems that SQ 25 will be a luxury trailer sailor. I wonder where that bulbed keel will carried and how complicated will be to install it when launching of the trailer. It reminds me of the bigger sister of my current Etap21s (26s), which I was considering to buy back in 2009. I am happy I did not. I think that maxi trailer sailor cruisers will be less considered by potential buyers because of the difficulty in launching and retrieving them and those over jammed European roads and marinas. Mine is a trailer sailer with shallow draft and even in that case I have moved it only once to sail it to a different location. It would be much easier to charter a boat than to move your trailer sailer in more distant waters. Besides, this one will not be cheap. I also wonder what will be its displacement. The Manufacturer will produce also the Comfortinas and power boats. 

Regards
Rumen


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## PCP

*The new Ker designed McConaghy 50*

I had already talked about this boat that is very powerful and super fast but I found out a movie about it. Pity that has a very bad definition but shows up an unexpected Ker facet: the light control on the interior and plenty of it. For me that's what makes this boat stand out from the other Ker cruiser racers, this one has an amazing lighting and that can has the potential for a very nice interior.

Looking at the boat we would say: Another very fast cruiser racer with a lousy and dark interior, since the height of the cabin is very low. Not this one is different in a very creative way. Without losing the sail advantages of a very low cabin this boat has an interior with lots of light and that makes it, as that cockpit table arrangement, more of a performance cruiser. Have a look how the illumination works:


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: More on Mills and Chines*

Interestingly, Mills drew chines on his design for the VSA 45 IRC racer, as well as on the 38-foot short-handed cruiser-racer. However, in his brief comments on the IRC boat, he doesn't mention the import of including chines.



















While I haven't weighed in on the heated exchange with Bob Perry, I confess to having been a bit puzzled by his reference to his conversation with Mills on this topic.

Here's what Mills says about the 38: "This chined high performance cruiser-racer combines a modern comfortable interior with the most visible and useful Open design type traits to create a very versatile, fast, and powerful shorthanded performer."

He then goes on to observe: "The resulting design would have high initial stability without crew on the rail making it a pleasure to shorthand and cruise, and offers exceptional reaching performance, important to the non-racing cruisers and offshore racers alike."

This is essentially the case Paulo has been making from the start, yet somehow Mills didn't mention these points to Bob in the course of their conversation on the topic? I find that hard to believe.

What Mills doesn't comment on is whether or not chines are of value within the IRC framework - i.e., crewed buoy / short-distance racing, with a relatively equal balance of upwind and downwind sailing. I'm going to go out on a limb and conjecture that he would probably say the same thing Paulo has been saying: "Under IRC, fully crewed boats, competently sailed within their design parameters, don't really benefit from chines."

And my experience racing against the Ker 43 "Ptarmigan" (now "Otra Vez") at Block Island Race Week in 2011 under IRC would seem to confirm that. In light-to-moderate conditions, on windward-leeward course, "Ptarmigan" was unbeatable, in the hands of a very experienced racing crew (I was aboard a custom Schumacher 50 - we were only competitive against "Ptarmigan" in really light breeze, upwind and VMG running). "Ptarmigan" was also very fast in the 2012 Newport-Bermuda Race, finishing first in IRC 9 (only 6 hours behind the fastest TP52 in elapsed time - and probably would have done better but apparently lost all their instruments in what was a very wet and windy race). Interestingly, the Carkeek HP 40 "Decision", which sports a very mild chine quite a way aft, beat "Ptarmigan" by 5 hours on elapsed, and also corrected out ahead by the same in Division "8" IRC, beating two TP52s in the process.

All this to say that I find myself aligned with Mills and Paulo over Bob on the chines topic. I'm looking forward to an opporunity to sail Rob Humphrey's Elan 320 design and form my own opinion.


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## PCP

*Lionel lemonchois*

I had posted about him recently. If you don't remember maybe you remember the sailor that was on the middle of the Atlantic on a capsized giant multihull?

Yes that was him. That was 8 days ago and he is still there waiting two more days. On this cold and hard winter, living upside down, he waits patiently the rescue team that is going to put again the trimaran on its feet before towing it. Tough these solo sailors

As you may recall he was trying to beat a record while things went wrong. He was interviewed and has told the story (translated):

*"The boat was close hauled in 16-17 knots of wind. The wind was easing off. I was under full mainsail and jib. I decided to go to rest inside. I had not done that for several days. The wind returned. When I shocked the sails they did not went lose. The butts had dried around winches and remained stiff. It took a little time to let them, a few seconds...and then it was too late. A stupid and fatal accident.

... As there was a bit of swell and I was afraid that the broken mast could damage the mast from below. Quickly, I went into the water to cut the mast out in order to preserve the platform. There is nothing under the boat. The mast was not recoverable, it broke in two during capsize."*


----------



## bobperry

Pelic ano:
I have known Mark Mills since he interned in my office years ago. And no, you do not know what went on in the conversation.

" I find myself aligned with Mills and Paulo over Bob "
Can you explain to me exactly what my position on chines is?
I hope you have been reading carefully.


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## MrPelicano

Hi Bob -

Am aware of your lengthy and close relationship with Mark, of which you have reminded us on several occasions. Clearly he learned a great deal during his internship with you, and I'm sure it has contributed to his success.

I was referring, specifically, to your "training wheel" analogy and "fashion" (i.e., cosmetic) references. My sense is that Mills would never use chines for either reason, and he does choose to use them, justifying the choice, at least with respect to the 38', in precisely the terms that Paulo has been using, with respect to Open class racers and shorthanded sailing.

That's pretty much my take on the extended dialogue between you and Paulo on this topic. I'd be more engaged, myself, but the friggin' New England winter is totally disrupting my commutes back and forth to work, and cutting into my quality forum time. 

Best regards,

MrP


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## PCP

*Luffe 3.6*

I think Pelicano was quite clear in what he said and explained well why he said it. That discussion is finished and I don't want this thread to become like that one on steel boats, bitter and nasty.

Changing subject and I hope for good, a very nice narrow modern boat without chines. Quite classical on its lines but also modern in the hull design with the beam pulled back, the Luffe 3.6.







We had talked already about it but a nice movie had turned out with Oluf, its designer at the tiller.






Sailing the new Luffe 3.6 from Olav Taraldsen on Vimeo.


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## bobperry

Pelican:
Maybe you should read what I wrote before coming to a decision on what my postion on chines is. That's what I would do. I presume your understanding of Mark's position on chines is based on that one boat.

Yes I used the training wheel analogy but that was one comment on one kind of boat with one kind of chine. But I really don't think you know what my position on chines is.
I'm not sure I have a "position on chines". I'd love to hear it.

I have said all along the application of chines has to be matched to the specific boat and it's intended target performance. That seems like simple naval architecture to me.


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## MrPelicano

bobperry said:


> I have said all along the application of chines has to be matched to the specific boat and it's intended target performance. That seems like simple naval architecture to me.


In which case, there is no disagreement between you and Paulo at all, if your position can be summed up in the paragraph above.

I don't believe anyone in this thread has argued that chines are a go-fast / track-like-a-slot-car design feature that can be applied to any boat and magically transform it into a race winner and/or superior cruising platform. If they did, and I missed it, please point me to the claim(s).

I confess that I don't have the luxury of parsing every word of every post like it was Holy Scripture, but I draw impressions from the aggregate of the exchanges on topics like this one, in which I claim no expertise whatsoever, other than having raced at a fairly high level on boats of every type for over 40 years, and reading as much as I can.

Ultimately, nobody is challenging your credentials as a successful, highly regarded NA, whose opinions on such things as chines deserve to be taken seriously. But I have to agree with Paulo that there has been more heat than light in many of the exchanges in this thread, and for the life of me I don't understand why that is.

Clearly there are solid hydrodynamic and engineering reasons to use chines for particular applications on contemporary racing and cruising boats. Many equally successful NAs do so; other equally successful NAs don't, for similar applications. What we're seeking to understand is what specific factors in the design brief influence the decision to employ them or not.

With respect to Open class race boats, like the IMOCA 60s and Classe 40's, we grasp the value of chines given the primary use to which these boats are put: extended, solo / DH offshore racing, primarily downwind. And we understand why some of the virtues that chines bring in that specific application may also hold for peformance cruisers which also spend a good portion of their lives sailing shorthanded in extended offshore / downwind scenarios (or are intended to; like SUVs, plenty of them barely make it out of the marina for a Friday evening cocktail cruise ).

Perhaps a question I might address to you is the following: If François Gabart showed up in your office tomorrow, a bag of Euros in his hand, and asked you to design an IMOCA 60 for him, would you build it with chines or not? If so, why? If not, why not? 

Similarly, if Beneteau commissioned you to design a replacement for the new Oceanis 38, with the design brief of being a stable and comfortable platform for fast offshore cruising by couples, chines or no chines?

I promise to read every word very, very carefully.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Luffe 3.6*



PCP said:


> I think Pelicano was quite clear in what he said and explained well why he said it. That discussion is finished and I don't want this thread to become like that one on steel boats, bitter and nasty.
> 
> Changing subject and I hope for good, a very nice narrow modern boat without chines. Quite classical on its lines but also modern in the hull design with the beam pulled back, the Luffe 3.6.
> 
> We had talked already about it but a nice movie had turned out with Oluf, its designer at the tiller.


This is really a lovely boat and looks like a joy to sail, upwind and downwind. Doesn't someone who posts regularly to this forum have one in build right now? I seem to recall that this is the case. If so, I can understand why he would want one.

Doesn't fit my design brief, of course, but I want to go fast offshore, downwind, by myself, for extended periods. But if I was going to spend the rest of my life cruising New England and Long Island Sound, this is a boat I would be happy to own.


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## bobperry

Pelican:
Nope I would not design a IMOCA boat with or without chines. I'm comfy here in my beach shack and I don't need the money that badly. But the real reason I would not take that job for any amount of money is that I have never done a boat like that and I'm not sure I would be the best person for the job. In a self indulgent way I'd like to do it but I would not be doing the client a favor. He can go to Farr and get more experience with that kind of boat. My interest is doing the boats I know I can do better than others, the boats I like to use myself. I'd love to sit in on the meetings Gabart would have with the designer he chose. That would be fun. I'd love to have access to all that design research money. For me, now, it's all about enjoying what I do and knowing I do it well.

I'd be happy to draw a boat for Beneteau. Not sure if I'd go with chines or not. It's not that simple a decision for me. I'd have to get into the preliminary design stage and take a look at the benefits offerred by chines if any. I might run some VPP's and compare a chine hull against a non chine hull. Maybe then move the chine around a bit and see if there are any significant changes in performance. The stuff I normally do with VPP's. I play. As I have said over and over I have designed boats with chines. I am not "anti chine" the simplistic way I am painted here. I just view the application of chines specific to the project and not as a blanket panacea recognizing that there are huge variations in chined hulls.

But you see, I could not take a job for Beneteau. I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look. And again, I would not be good at that. There are other designers very good at that modern styling. I want to stay in my comfort zone.


The phones ringing,,,hold on,,,It's Beneteau.


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## PCP

*Beneteau, looks, tastes and niche markets.*



bobperry said:


> .....
> But you see, I could not take a job for Beneteau. I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look. And again, I would not be good at that. There are other designers very good at that modern styling. I want to stay in my comfort zone.
> .....


Designing a boat for Beneteau has a simple and challenging program: a boat that has to fulfill the sail cruising needs of the the largest possible number of cruisers and sailors. For that the boat has to look good and be desirable and good looking to the largest possible number of sailors, be comfortable, with a big interior, well designed, one they find very nice, with a good quality, with the best possible cruising amenities, good storage and tankage, sail at least as well as the competition (and that is very well) and have a building that does not make it expensive and can provide a competitive priced boat :a lot of boat for the money and a boat that can be afforded by many.

What you call Euro is simply what most sailors prefer, being them American or European, if not, the design of the boat would be different. The fact that Benetau is the world leader in sales show that they (and their NAs) got it right regarding that program.

You are always remembering Brent S. that he designs just for a very small market niche. Well, what you call your comfort zone, looking by the boat that you give as example or your last designs is also a very small niche in what regards sailing or cruising. A nice one for very rich people that like classical looking boats (the style you call American) but also a less competitive one. You have to design a boat that a rich client likes. A designer for Beneteau has to design not only a boat that thousands like but one that can be afforded by many hundreds.

I don't understand your contempt regarding how Beneteaus looks *(I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look)*. That contempt is also a contempt by the tastes of the vast majority of sailors, being them Euro or American. After all Beneteau is also the leader in America or if not it is Jeanneau whose look is not that different. Sailors don't buy boats they don't like or find attractive and the vast majority find Beneteaus and Jeanneaus attractive band nice.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Paulo:
You don't get it.

I like to design unique, very well built custom yachts for discerning clients.

Check out Cruising World magazines recent Top 40 Production Yachts of all Time. Three of the top ten boats were my designs. The number one boat was my design. I know production boats. I have thousands. Literally thousands to my credit.

But now I like unique custom boat projects where the build can be amazing and the end result a boat that reflects the client individual approach to life on the water. Beneteaus are out of the question. They are nice boats but they are not for my clients. I would happily do another production boat but it would have to be in a style I liked. I hope that no one is getting the idea that I don't like any Beneteaus. There are some models that I find quite appealing. Others not. I take them individually.


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## MrPelicano

*Re: Beneteau, looks, tastes and niche markets.*



PCP said:


> I don't understand your contempt regarding how Beneteaus looks *(I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look)*. That contempt is also a contempt by the tastes of the vast majority of sailors, being them Euro or American. After all Beneteau is also the leader in America or if not it is Jeanneau whose look is not that different. Sailors don't buy boats they don't like or find attractive and the vast majority find Beneteaus and Jeanneaus attractive band nice.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I don't entirely agree with "the market is always right" - even though, from a business perspective, it certainly is. From a design and aesthetic perspective, you have to deal with the reality of boats from firms like Hunter - they sell a lot of boats which, in my perspective, are not particularly pleasing to look at and certainly don't perform well with respect to sailing. What they do well is:

1. Maximize livable interior space
2. Optimize performance while motoring - i.e., their hull designs can resemble powerboats more than sailboats.

There is a sizable segment of the market that appreciates these qualities. But I'd side with Bob here and say I would never want to design a boat where those two objectives were primary.

Of course, I happen to think that Beneteau designers usually get it right, in terms of aesthetics, performance and functionality, though there are plenty of Beneteaus - the Oceanis line, in particular - that I don't find very pleasing. But that's because my tastes run towards what Farr delivers in the First line. And even there I don't think the results are always great - the First 40.7 and 36.7 were okay boats, especially the former, but I don't care for the looks of either one, which are often compared to "beach balls" because of their rather voluminous coach roof designs (compared to the extremely sexy Mills and Ker designs, for example - much more expensive boats, of course).

At the same time, I find the contemporary J/Boat designs to be very appealing aesthetically, and certainly those boats also perform very well under IRC - at the highest levels, in fact. Even in the early 90's, the J/105 was a sexy looking boat above the waterline, while being fairly conventional beneath it. I think most would consider J/Boats a successful mid-market design firm, by any standard, with broad appeal to sailors everywhere.

I would say that Beneteau's success can be attributed to pretty much getting all or most of the key variables correct, from both a business and a design point of view. And because they utilize NAs with significant racing experience and interior designers with deep understanding of ergonomics and functionality and aesthetics, they seem able to square-the-circle with respect to performance vs. comfort quite successfully.

For what it's worth, there's no question that Bob can draw sexy "modern" designs. I've seen Icon up close and it holds its own against any comparable contemporary design at that length. Quite competitive in PNW racing, as well.










Respectfully,

MrP


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## PCP

*Discerning tastes.*



bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> You don't get it.
> 
> I like to design unique, very well built custom yachts for discerning clients.
> 
> Check out Cruising World magazines recent Top 40 Production Yachts of all Time. Three of the top ten boats were my designs. The number one boat was my design. I know production boats. I have thousands. Literally thousands to my credit.
> 
> But now I like unique custom boat projects where the build can be amazing and the end result a boat that reflects the client individual approach to life on the water. Beneteaus are out of the question. They are nice boats but they are not for my clients. I would happily do another production boat but it would have to be in a style I liked. I hope that no one is getting the idea that I don't like any Beneteaus. There are some models that I find quite appealing. Others not. I take them individually.
> ...


Yes I understand quite well what you say but as you pointed out you once designed to the main market, boats that could appeal to many and whose cost make it affordable. The builders of that type of main market boats chose you to design them. I am talking about boats like the Tayana or Valiant and several others that were mass produced and sold in great numbers.

Neither am I taking out any of your relevance as one of the more important NA from the XX century one that in America pushed the boundaries of cruising boat design and give at that time to the general public, meaning sailors, the boats they wanted, better sailboats.

I am only pointing that by our own choice, or not, you are not working on that main market sector anymore and are working on a niche sector that you call your comfort zone. Nothing wrong with that specially if that makes you happy and it is what you want, but the designers that work for Benetau or Jeanneau work not only that niche sector you chose but the main market, performance cruisers, solo racing and crewed racing.

It seems odd and inelegant to me that you consider their work regarding the main cruising sector (in a general) in a negative and depreciating way. I find also odd that you talk about having to design boats in a style you like. An Architect designs for clients not according his particular tastes but according to client tastes and since Beneteau and Jeanneau work the main market that means the tastes of the vast majority of sailors.

Particularly regarding the Oceanis 38 that you considered looking like *"a bloated tennis shoe look"*, it is designed by Conq that expressed in an article what was was his take regarding aesthetics and that is a pure functionalist one: what makes a boat sail better is beautiful. Regarding sailing and that boat many things were taken from solo racers, that him and Finot had been designing from ages and the boat had ended up having the look of a solo racer adapted to cruising. That according to Conq is a positive aesthetically characteristic since in a functionalist way a top racing boat is beautiful by definition and I (like Conq) believe that the fact the boat looks a bit like a solo racer will have a positive response in what regards general tastes. Sailors will like it.







Regarding the type of clients you have that you describe like "discerning clients", they certainly are rich and want luxury boats but they are also quite conservative in their tastes. A discerning taste may also means a taste for speed in cruising and a boat easy to sail solo (with a luxurious interior) and it seems to me that, contrary to the other NA that also designed by Beneteau and Jeanneau, none of your recent clients has that type of discerning taste.

regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Well Paulo, just chalk it up to diversity. Diversity is good. I don't think like you and vice versa. Nothing wrong with that. Diversity. There is no right or wrong. My opiniions are not personal attacks on your choices they are simply my opinions. I am not interested in anyone dictating what my "taste" should be. It's my work and I choose to do it my way. It works well for my clients

"Regarding the type of clients you have that you describe like "discerning clients", they certainly are rich and want luxury boats but they are also quite conservative in their tastes. A discerning taste may also means a taste for speed in cruising and a boat easy to sail solo (with a luxurious interior) and it seems to me that, contrary to the other NA that also designed by Beneteau and Jeanneau, none of your recent clients has that type of discerning taste."

That commenty is just plain silly.


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## bobperry

Pelican:
I'm an ex-J24 owner and I admire almost all the J Boat models.
I also admire the Pogo series.
I like the Beneteau First series.
I am a real fan of Nils Jeppeson's work with the X Yachts.
My last boat was a Peter Norlin design.
My SLIVER is as big (for a single hander), radical, comfortable and fast as possible.
My 62' ketch CATARI is just plain comfortable and pretty.

If someone is going to try to put me in a box here they had better bring a really big box.


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## PCP

*Main Market*



MrPelicano said:


> I don't entirely agree with "the market is always right" - even though, from a business perspective, it certainly is. From a design and aesthetic perspective, you have to deal with the reality of boats from firms like Hunter - they sell a lot of boats which, in my perspective, are not particularly pleasing to look at and certainly don't perform well with respect to sailing. What they do well is:
> 
> 1. Maximize livable interior space
> 2. Optimize performance while motoring - i.e., their hull designs can resemble powerboats more than sailboats.
> 
> There is a sizable segment of the market that appreciates these qualities. But I'd side with Bob here and say I would never want to design a boat where those two objectives were primary.
> 
> ...


Yes, the market is always right and it is not by accident that even being Hunter an american brand and therefore with a special appeal to Americans, it was at the edge of bankruptcy and even if it is very difficult to preview market tendencies, specially american ones, I would say the new boats, relatively narrow and with odd chines would not contribute to the recovery of the company.

Hunter withstanding the advantage of being an American brand sells less in America than Benetau or Jeanneau and I am not sure if they will survive with boats designed like that. Contrary of what you think I don't think it is what main market wants. Time will tell if the new Hunter will satisfy the main market to whom they are pointed. I don't think so.

Those sailors and cruisers want all what you said but want also a boat that sails as well or better than a similarly priced boat with the same interior characteristics.

Market is always right even if you don't like the same type of boats the main market wants (that means most of the cruisers) and that is to be expected being you a racer that never seriously cruised. Even when you start cruising, you, like me, will want a rewarding and fast boat with sailing performance as one of the main if not the more important design criteria in the boat. There are boats designed for cruisers and sailors like us but they are not main market because that is not what most sailors want regarding priorities.

Boats with great sailing characteristics are much more expensive to produce (and price is very important), even having a simpler and cheaper interior.

The boats that are produced for the main market have to have all characteristics you mentioned and also sail well, and they have to sail remarkably well giving the cheaper deck hardware and the simplified rigging, so well that some of those boats can have a similar performance (or better) than many 20 year's old performance cruisers and that is truly remarkable.

I would say that main market can be defined as the best cruiser for the buck and that includes not only how it sails but interior and quality of space, how it motors, all this in a balanced way.

When you go to the Miami boat show I strongly recommend you not to show to your wife the Sun Odyssey 349. Even if the Elan 320 has a great cruising interior for a performance boat, she will never be able to understand why you will want the Elan 320. She will ask to you if the Jeanneau 349 will not sail well and you would have been obliged to tell her that yes and would say also that the Elan 320 is faster. She would ask much faster? and you would have to answer truthfully: No, just a little bit.

And then you will have a problem because she would say that a boat that is just a little bit faster does not make sense cruising or living wise face to one with a better interior (separated shower cabin and all) and also one that is a lot less expensive.

See, that is what is all about main market cruisers and why most sailors will prefer them over performance cruisers That's why they are main market.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

"Yes, the market is always right "

My clients are not "the market".

There you have it. The fundamental difference between my point of view and Paulo's.
I'll let it go at that.


----------



## HMoll

This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?

Thanks to Paulo, Bob (and mediators) for the hot discussion about chines. I totally "get" both arguments, and I understood Bob the first time around on boat behaviour issues, and what to expect. It reminded me of this Elan video, where you see the chined hull maybe becoming a handicap or a challenge on the upwind leg. Quite a tradeoff for a downwind blaster 

Cheers,

Hans


----------



## olianta

HMoll said:


> http://http://www.youtube.com/embed/P1OddRBV0mw
> 
> This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?
> 
> Thanks to Paulo, Bob a(nd mediators) for the hot discussion about chines. I totally "get" both arguments, and I understood Bob the first time around on boat behaviour issues, and what to expect. It reminded me of this Elan video, where you see the chined hull maybe becoming a handicap or a challenge on the upwind leg. Quite a tradeoff for a downwind blaster
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Hans


Hans, 
I could not open the link.
Here is another one that has to work.
élan | Sailing Anarchy

Rumen


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Rumen. That worked.


----------



## Edward3

Hans, can you check the link you posted on the 350 and 410.


----------



## PCP

*Elan 350*



HMoll said:


> http://http://www.youtube.com/embed/P1OddRBV0mw
> 
> This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?


Hans, I don't know of what you are talking a a boat your link video does not work. The Elan 350 is a very well succeeded performance cruiser, so much that after several years on the market, instead of having a completely new model they launched the 360 that has the same hull of the 350:











The boat has also a good overall performance and is used with good results in club regattas even on the ones with light wids like this one (not the strog point of the boat):











As you can see, even if the boat has a rating to high to win on absolute top regattas it is able to win on club reagattas. Note that the boat not being able to win at the higher level has nothing to do with being fast or even faster in real time but with the fact that it is to much penalized by rating.

The Elan, with the Archambault and JPK are also among the very few boats that can get very good race results sailed with a crew or sailed solo. Note that the two other brands have faster boats but more racing oriented with worse cruising interiors and substantially more expensive.

The 360 is just a bit lighter and a bit faster than the 350 and with a better interior.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

I wouldn't draw ay conclusions about the boats in the vid, too many variables.

What I do see is one boat with a big gaping hole caused by two skippers who should have paid more attention and been more aware of their boat's behaviour in those conditions.


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> I wouldn't draw ay conclusions about the boats in the vid, too many variables.
> ....


Bob, there is no better way to take conclusions about the sailing performance of a boat than looking at his rating, that is high, or looking at his racing performance, if it is a performance one...and the boat can win making outstanding results in real time even on races with many modern and fast opponents.

A lot of speed and cruising quality for the price, it is clear to all, at lest to all boat testers that sail and know all the new boats on the market. You cannot find anybody that knows the market and says otherwise.

Also a boat that excel in what regards solo performance cruising, at least for the price. A Pogo 10.50 would do better but it costs much more and would not do so well in regatta, being is rating even higher.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

"Bob, there is no better way to take conclusions about the sailing performance of a boat than looking at his rating, that is high, or looking at his racing performance, if it is a performance one...and the boat can win making outstanding results in real time even on races with many modern and fast opponents"

Thank you Paulo. I look at ratings all the time. Always have. I look at race results all the time. Always have. I agree they are very good tools for comparisons.


----------



## PCP

*Silver / B60*



bobperry said:


> ... My opiniions are not personal attacks on your choices they are simply my opinions. ...
> 
> Quote Paulo:*"Regarding the type of clients you have that you describe like "discerning clients", they certainly are rich and want luxury boats but they are also quite conservative in their tastes. A discerning taste may also means a taste for speed in cruising and a boat easy to sail solo (with a luxurious interior) and it seems to me that, contrary to the other NA that also designed by Beneteau and Jeanneau, none of your recent clients has that type of discerning taste."*
> 
> *That commenty is just plain silly.*


I have asked you plenty times not to be rude on this thread. I an not silly and resent to be called silly.

I will not use rude language but I will point out that you should look better to what the others say before calling them silly. Or better you should think they are but should not say it. It is called to be polite.

I was talking about your recent works and regarding *cruising boats*. That boat is a daysailer and a weekend cruiser at most.

But by your rude observation it seems that you consider it a performance daysailer. You could have simply asked, instead of calling me silly, if I did not consider it a performance daysailor and I would have said politely that no, that is not the case. Certainly the boat is a relatively fast daysailor due to its lenght but not a performance one and my opinion is not from now but from many months ago. This is what I said when Faster asked my opinion about it:



PCP said:


> ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly a beautiful boat and also an extreme boat regarding several counts:
> 
> A 60ft day sailor, very narrow with a small long interior, a big draft and a nice narrow deep bulbed keel.
> 
> This is a sailboat that will need a relatively small sail area relatively to its length, a boat that will take advantage of a big LOA and relatively big LWL to be a fast boat, particularly upwind. The narrow hull will not generate a lot of form stability, it is a boat that needs to heel to create RM. With any considerable amount of wind this boat will go fast upwind but with a lot of heel.
> 
> I understand and respect the intention to make the boat accordingly with semiotic image of a past traditional model, a long canoe body. *That gives a beautiful boat but that double end takes away the possibility of increasing that already small for stability, particularly downwind*.
> 
> Here you have another American very marrow boat, certainly more sportive, using a shape of hull and transom that will provide more form stability:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *But the Silver is a very particular boat certainly for a very particular owner to whom maximizing performance will not be central,* neither the interior space in what regards pleasantness or space volume or the possibility to sail in not deep waters. Probably beauty, pleasure of sailing and easy speed are what the owner wants and I have no doubt the boat will provide that.
> 
> Anyway, talking about an one off is completely different than talking about a production model. A production model is made to please to a market segment, a one off is made to please a owner. If the owner is completely satisfied and his dreams were fulfilled, than it is a great boat even if it will not please or satisfy the needs of any other sailor. Regarding a production model, it is more complicated since the designer is not trying to satisfy only one client but the needs and desires of many people.


On a performance boat, cruiser or daysailer, sailing potential is the essence of the boat and everything regarding its hull design and rig takes precedence and it is there to increase overall sailing performance.

A performance boat is in what regards the hull and rig has to be a truly functional boat, you don't use there decorative elements or elements that are less effective regarding sailing then others:

You don't use a round transom since that besides providing little drag and good upwind performance is overall less efficient than a transom that provides more form stability without increasing significantly the drag upwind.

You use a balanced hull regarding downwind and upwind best performances and not one that is only maximized for upwind and that will not allow a very good performance downwind.

There is a good reason why rounded bows and very narrow boats are not used today in racing and that's because those shapes and options are not the best in what regards overall performance and on a *performance* daysailer, cruiser or racer, bettering the performance is what counts.

I will post a daysailer designed under a performance perspective by the Luca Brenta team. It has the same lenght of the Silver and has already some years:













Silly? I don't think so. What I call a performance boat may be different than what you call a performance boat, but not silly. The B60 having a lot more hull form stability than your boat (not only by a superior beam but also by a more efficient transom design) has almost 60% of B/D ratio and this will give you the potential of the boat downwind, without compromising too much (if any) upwind potential. the boat will also have a far better performance reaching.

As I said that is a design with already some years. Probably if the B60 was designed now it would be more like the C42, a Luca Brenta team 2012 design: a bit more beam (even if it still a narrow boat) and chines.



If you were on the market, I mean if someone was building that boat in a small production basis, your boat would have to compete with boats like this one (and there are more) not only in performance as in interior space, cockpit space and overall comfort.

Off course it is not so and as I said before, as long as the client is satisfied, it is a great design.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

To be accurate Paulo that is not a "round transom". That is no transom. We call that a "double ender" and it is exactly what the client asked for. As for stability, we have lots of it with 10' draft and a big bulb the VPP's show the boat be very stilff and the LPS is around 162 degrees! Walking around on the boat at the dock it doesn't move. This is something took into consideration as part of the normal design process. I don't guess.

Luca Brenta has been a favorite designer of mine for many years. I love his work. But he has his style and I have mine. I'll just continue doing my style. In can still admire Brenta's work. If my work annoys you then that's not my problem. My style is in no way connected to your taste in yachts. I suspect we eat different food. We wear different clothes. We listen to diferent music. We like different boats. Diversity is a good thing.


----------



## HMoll

Talking 'bout chines...the new RM 890 is sailing! I'm wondering if that reverse bow aids with a softer dig-in.


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?
> ...
> Hans


Hans, I can see very little regarding the boat upwind potential except that the boat is bad sailed with two much canvas and is trying to avoid another boat.

When of the things that I think it could be better on Elan 350/360 is the B/D ratio, taking into account the torpedo keel and draft. Sure the boat works well, as a huge form stability but gains little in RM if it is heeled a lot and can lose effectiveness in that situation. That is not typical of this boats but typical of inexpensive mass market cruiser racers.

Having a much bigger B/D ratio would imply a stronger hull and a more expensive boat. That's the case regarding the A35, or the JPK 10.10. That's one of the reasons they are faster and also one of the reasons why they are more expensive

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> To be accurate Paulo that is not a "round transom". That is no transom. We call that a "double ender" and it is exactly what the client asked for. As for stability, we have lots of it with 10' draft and a big bulb the VPP's show the boat be very stilff and the LPS is around 162 degrees! Walking around on the boat at the dock it doesn't move. This is something took into consideration as part of the normal design process. I don't guess.
> 
> Luca Brenta has been a favorite designer of mine for many years. I love his work. But he has his style and I have mine. I'll just continue doing my style. In can still admire Brenta's work. If my work annoys you then that's not my problem. My style is in no way connected to your taste in yachts. I suspect we eat different food. We wear different clothes. We listen to diferent music. We like different boats. Diversity is a good thing.


Bob, I like many types of yachts including some of yours. Here in what we seem to disagree is in what we call a performance boat and regarding a performance boat concept, being it a racer, a daysailer or a cruiser.

your work does not annoy me. You calling me silly does annoys me.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> Talking 'bout chines...the new RM 890 is sailing! I'm wondering if that reverse bow aids with a softer dig-in.


The effect if any will be a very marginal one regarding a straight bow. The bow is just slightly inverted. Some more cm on the water line I suppose.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## HMoll

PCP said:


> The effect if any will be a very marginal one regarding a straight bow. The bow is just slightly inverted. Some more cm on the water line I suppose.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Any word on when they will update the RM1060? It seems like the other day it was launched and suddenly it's the oldest design of their fleet! I saw your post on a bigger one. Impressive. Also Pogo's 10.50 is looking dated after the launch of the 50 & 30. Funny, you can scroll back on the 600+ pages of this thread and pinpoint when all of these came out.


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> Any word on when they will update the RM1060? It seems like the other day it was launched and suddenly it's the oldest design of their fleet! I saw your post on a bigger one. Impressive. Also Pogo's 10.50 is looking dated after the launch of the 50 & 30. Funny, you can scroll back on the 600+ pages of this thread and pinpoint when all of these came out.


No, the RM is a pretty recent boat. I guess you will have to wait more 2 or 3 years for a remake of the boat, probably a MKII using the same hull.

Yes the Pogo 10,50 I believe it will be sooner even if the boat has a fantastic performance the ones that buy that type of boat like to have boats that benefice of all new developments so I believe you will see soon a Pogo 10,50 with a new hull, one with chines

But I believe that the biggest news will come from Benetau and from the First series were several boats have already several years. They have no more the First 50 available on their site. If you remember, the 50 was the first of the new line and defined the looks of all the line (till the 35ft) so the new model will be very important because I think it will have that role again.

The 50ft was designed by Philipe Briand as well as the 45. The 45 proved well racing and sold well but the 40 that is a lot alike but was designed by Farr did not so well. The boat proved well in racing but never was a popular performance cruiser (very small anchor locker). The 35 that was designed by Farr is the more popular boat, specially in what regards performance cruising.

The First 30 is a JK design but it was a bit of a flop in what regards racing and cruising. The boat looked really great but in what regards rating things were very difficult. It is not also a popular boat in what regards performance cruising.

So I am very curious. Who is going to design the big one? One of the above or a specialist in IRC racing? Farr has not being making many new designs on the last two years, with exception from some Bavaria and the VOR 65.

One thing is for sure, First needs better boats on the First line to have the same success he had with the 44.7, 40.7 and 36,7, or maybe the competition from Dehler, Salona and Elan is now much more though.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## HMoll

PCP said:


> "But I believe that the biggest news will come from Benetau and from the First series were several boats have already several years. "


I totally agree. It's time and they have been always a reference.



PCP said:


> " First 30 is a JK design but it was a bit of a flop in what regards racing and cruising. The boat looked really great but in what regards rating things were very difficult.


That's when they started using chines on a heavy boat, right?


----------



## APP Mode

What a surprise, BAVARIA anounced the BAVARIA EASY 9.7 , 49950€ , on a first sight this boat looks interesting on it's price .
The propose for a day sailing with family and friends very similar to 37ft yacht.
What is surprose for me is the price so low, how it is going to affect to other Bavaria models, with a similiar lenght. How people should analise this boat before buying it?


----------



## PCP

HMoll said:


> ...
> That's when they started using chines on a heavy boat, right?


Yes the First 30 was on the first performance cruisers with chine but this is mostly a regatta boat and chines here would not be of much help. I believe the problems have to do with the boat being designed a bit like a miniature VOR, with a big transom, great for stability but not good for rating or upwind sailing. Interesting for Ocean sailing but not for what it was designed for.

The boat is also heavy and the ballast is not much. They have tried to better the boat and I believe the First 30R is a better boat but it does not even appear on the Benetau page. One of the problems is that First counts very little for the business volume of Benetau and they don't seem to care much, certainly much less than brands like Salona that are always trying to better the boats.

Have a look at the Beneteau 31R:



Beneteau First 30 - R Version

Lighter, cored hull, more ballast, more draft.

One of the problems is that they have become obsolete in what regards hull building techniques for performance boats: Who still use solid polyester hulls in performance boats

That is responsible for more weight and less hull rigidity. Yes I know they make also the 40 on a much more expensive version, a bit like the R, with cored hulls but that is not also advertised. Much more expensive boats anyway.

The truth is that the First line has become a mess in what regards Beneteau. It should have an independent management.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*The Big RM*

Some more photos and information: what a boat













The interior layout is great including a big Dinghy garage and a frontal big sail locker. the boat will be very fast and light. the preliminary designs show two big water ballast (2T each) and a swing keel but all that can be still changed. As usual on RM, a Marc Lombard Design.


----------



## PCP

*My favorite sailing team:*






Yes, they are not only nice and elegant as they have been training hard, not to mention they are all great sailors. For what I have seen they risk to start the VOR as a favorite team and that would be a first.

I really don't know SCA products and I am not obviously a client but I will tell you that if my family needs some of the stuff they sell, I will gladly buy their products over the competition even if they cost some cents more. It is great what they are doing for sailing.


----------



## PCP

*Italians and solo racing.*

A bit all over Europe duo and solo racing is on the increase and I will bet that in some years it will be the more popular type of offshore club racing.

Many classic races include now a duo crew category and as all know, the Fastnet was last year won overall by a duo crew.

If we don't consider the French races (that lead this type of racing for many years and were the first to start it) one of the oldest is the Roma per due, that is raced along with a full crewed race (Roma per tuti).

This year's edition will have a big new, They opened a new category: Rome x 1, a solo category on the race.

They will start from Rome, will turn around at Lipari and will return to Rome:

http://www.romaper2.com/pub/news/image_news.php?id=163

The inscriptions are open and they have already many on the solo category, with very different types of boats.

If you are interested, the race will take place at 6 /4/2014:

Roma per Due - Roma per Tutti

Some images from the last one:


----------



## PCP

*Neo 400 going fast downwind with not too much wind.*

Yes, I know, some of you will be sayng: Another downwind speedster
except that this one, the Neo 400, it is not. It is a top ORC/IRC racer designed to have a good overall performance. I will be cruising but you guys can follow its performance on the world's ORC championship. It will be competing there.


----------



## PCP

*Kuka-light, a fantastic video, a fantastic boat*

Too much talk, today it seems we will have lots of videos and this one is absolutely fantastic:

A 42ft sailboat beating upwind a top Open 60!!!. Well that would not be out of this world if the boat was un upwind maximized one, but it isn't, the Kuka-Light is a kind of a 42 ft Open boat, kind of a 40 class racer a bit bigger and with a canting keel. They say the boat is proportionally 15% lighter than a top Open 60






The boat was thought and built by the crew with the help of a NA, Schickler Tagliapietra.

Here is the story:

*The idea of creating Kuka-Light started to spin around my head when I realised that to improve the Rating of my boat I had to have smaller sails and make the boat slower. This is absurd for a yachtsman used to racing with A class catamarans and with Melges 24 boats. Speed and apparent wind are synonyms of fun for me so I asked myself: why give up on fun and give up having maximum performance?

I decided I wanted to feel the same sensations as when I am sailing my A class also on a keelboat made for demanding regattas such as the Middle Sea Race or Fastnet; building a 40 foot boat that is as light as possible and that uses the apparent wind to maximise its possible performance. I sent the rating to hell! As of today, I am still not totally sure of what we will manage to come up with and if our visions will be proven right. We'll just have to wait and see.

...

The idea to create something special was following the Middle Sea Race 2009 when competing on a Cruiser/Racer (Kuka) Sly 42. We all enjoy racing and then asked ourselves why wouldn't we just want to go fast and forget about handicap and rating systems. Why should we compromise our performance and make a boat slower just to have a better chance to win on handicap. This was going against the whole reason we take part in the Sport in the first place&#8230;To sail fast and have fun. Also all cruiser racer have a lot of compromises we did not want. If you are racing you need something created for it.

Kuka-Light, has been created with the fresh approach of not considering rating and handicap rules , but simply perform as best as possible for this size boat. The brief from the owner , a long time friend of mine was to build the fastest 40 ft monohull in the World that could take part in the premier ocean and coastal races and be easily sailed by 6-7 crew.

The brief went out from the following ideas:

1. To set up a crew is never easy and if you have a smaller crew it will be easier to find them and save a lot of money when travelling around.
2. The size of 40 feet was chosen as it is still a size which can be used by normal people, not a professional crew. Also the owner was always using boats of this size.

We started with a clean sheet of paper and applied many principles from our multihull background. The choice of the designers was crucial as we intended to create something different. So an established designer with experience would have problems to forget all what he had done before. In the same time we needed a team of designers capable to do a real race boat. Do to our multihull experience we decided that weight was the highest priority. This resulted in the end with probably the highest power to weight ratio keel boat ever launched.

We then formed a partnership with ST yacht designers who shared our vision of Kuka-Light.*

Build | kuka-light

I had already posted about this boat so if you look with the thread search engine you can find more.






kuka-light - The first "giro d'Italia" from Kuka-Light on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*LIONEL LEMONCHOIS his again with the right side up!*

They reached him today (after living for 10 days on a capsized boat) and managed to put the big trimaran back on its feet. I bet Lionel is feeling a bit less miserable: He saved his boat


----------



## PCP

*Maxi 1200*

We have already talked here about the new Maxi 1200. Just some better images:


----------



## PCP

*A 2013 sailing compilation: some great images.*


----------



## capt vimes

Regarding the kuka light...
I am a little surprised that the kuka is with 3.2 t only 800 kg lighter than an plywood epoxy boat in her race trim one could build in his garage...
Didi 40cr radius chine plywood sailboat
And this homebuild boat has aluminum spars, 1.5 m less draft and 2 t ballast in a conventional keel casing made of steel... I imagine that the kuka has probably a little more than 1 t in her canting keelbulb...
If i look at the effort those guys put in to build the boat, i come to think that her lightness is not that extraordinary, just expensively bought...

And i know you cannot compare these two boats... The kuka has way more power, more sailarea and is by all means a lot faster... I just looked at the weight figures...


----------



## EricKLYC

capt vimes said:


> Regarding the kuka light...
> I am a little surprised that the kuka is with 3.2 t only 800 kg lighter than an plywood epoxy boat in her race trim one could build in his garage...
> Didi 40cr radius chine plywood sailboat
> And this homebuild boat has aluminum spars, 1.5 m less draft and 2 t ballast in a conventional keel casing made of steel... I imagine that the kuka has probably a little more than 1 t in her canting keelbulb...
> If i look at the effort those guys put in to build the boat, i come to think that her lightness is not that extraordinary, just expensively bought...
> 
> And i know you cannot compare these two boats... The kuka has way more power, more sailarea and is by all means a lot faster... I just looked at the weight figures...


Isn't 20% or 800 kilo's still quite a lot, even more than the weight of crew + full gear?

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Kuka-light is really very light:*



capt vimes said:


> Regarding the kuka light...
> I am a little surprised that the kuka is with 3.2 t only 800 kg lighter than an plywood epoxy boat in her race trim one could build in his garage...
> Didi 40cr radius chine plywood sailboat
> And this homebuild boat has aluminum spars, 1.5 m less draft and 2 t ballast in a conventional keel casing made of steel... I imagine that the kuka has probably a little more than 1 t in her canting keelbulb...
> If i look at the effort those guys put in to build the boat, i come to think that her lightness is not that extraordinary, just expensively bought...
> 
> And i know you cannot compare these two boats... The kuka has way more power, more sailarea and is by all means a lot faster... I just looked at the weight figures...


I don't know why you say that the Kuka-Light has a little more than 1 ton of ballast. If we were talking about a mass market cruiser with the same characteristic of others a guess could be made, a relative one, but in what regards top racing boats that is hard to do. Regarding Open an 60's or a class 40 the box rule implies very similar ballasts to each boat but this one is truly an Open boat, following no rule. They don't give the ballast an that can go from 30% to 60%.Probably it is not by accident that they don't disclose the ballast.

Regarding the comparison with a DIDI 40, you are not talking about boats with the same dimensions. The Kuka light is not only bigger as much more beamier: more about 79cm in length and more 120cm in beam.

Comparing with a boat with the same type of hull and beam but smaller, a 40 class racer, for instance a racing Pogo 40 class (s2), the difference is huge: the Pogo with less 62 cm in length and less 10 cm on beam weights more 30% and that's huge considering the Pogo is a smaller boat.

Yes, a 42ft sailboat with a 4.6m beam weighting only 3200 kg is an extraordinarily light boat. Consider for instance that a A35 weights 4450kg and the Elan 320 weights 3690 kg and is one of the lightest boats in its class.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Kuka-light is really very light:*



PCP said:


> I don't know why you say that the Kuka-Light has a little more than 1 ton of ballast. If we were talking about a mass market cruiser with the same characteristic of others a guess could be made, a relative one, but in what regards top racing boats that is hard to do. Regarding Open an 60's or a class 40 the box rule implies very similar ballasts to each boat but this one is truly an Open boat, following no rule. They don't give the ballast an that can go from 30% to 60%.Probably it is not by accident that they don't disclose the ballast.


Yes - that was an guess and looking at the bulb in all the images available, i do not see that it weighs in access of say 50 % of displacement...



> Regarding the comparison with a DIDI 40, you are not talking about boats with the same dimensions. The Kuka light is not only bigger as much more beamier: more about 79cm in length and more 120cm in beam.


What are you talking about?
The didi 40cr is just 10 cm shorter, has less beam but more freeboard and superstructure...



> Comparing with a boat with the same type of hull and beam but smaller, a 40 class racer, for instance a racing Pogo 40 class (s2), the difference is huge: the Pogo with less 62 cm in length and less 10 cm on beam weights more 30% and that's huge considering the Pogo is a smaller boat.
> 
> Yes, a 42ft sailboat with a 4.6m beam weighting only 3200 kg is an extraordinarily light boat. Consider for instance that a A35 weights 4450kg and the Elan 320 weights 3690 kg and is one of the lightest boats in its class.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I am sorry, but you obviously did not get my point.
In plain: the keel construction and ballast alone weighs well over 2 t on the dixi...
That means that in race trim the whole hull plus hardware, rig and sails weighs less than 2 t... Can we agree on that?
I - and you - do not know, what the ballast ratio on the kuka is... But looking at the draft, one might think that the ballast will not exceed 40 % of didpl.
Why, you may ask?
Because "lightness" was standing in big letters on their design brief, as proclaimed on their webpage.
And the canting keel in combination with the big draft means a LOT of power from less weight.
And now go back to the homemade wooden boat and see that this nice little thing has so much weight in its keel and is still only 800 kg heavier... Strange hmmmm?


----------



## bobperry

"I am sorry, but you obviously did not get my point."
That happens around here.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> "I am sorry, but you obviously did not get my point."
> That happens around here.


I am a bit tired about your insinuations enigmatic phrases and posts that mean nothing. There are other threads for that. Here I want objectivity and clarity.

If you want to say something say it! This statement after Vimes post considering that KuKa-light after all is not a very light boat, even an extraordinary light one, say so.

If you consider that a racing boat that has as given dimensions: Length 12.80 mt, beam 4.60 mt, Draft 3.50 mt, Displacement *3200 kg* is not very light, say so and explain why and stop insinuating things.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Kuka-light is really very light:*



capt vimes said:


> ...
> 
> What are you talking about?
> The didi 40cr is just 10 cm shorter, has less beam but more freeboard and superstructure...
> ...
> And now go back to the homemade wooden boat and see that this nice little thing has so much weight in its keel and is still only 800 kg heavier... Strange hmmmm?


If you cannot see the difference in hull area between a boat with a 3.4m beam and one with 4.6m beam hull and the influence that has on the the boat weight (even if they are built identically) what can I say?

I have told you that a top 40 class race boat, with a similar hull ( not a carbon boat but an infused one and built as light as possible, carbon masts and all, weights 4500kg and that means 30% more. If you cannot understand that in what regards weight on comparable sized race boats *30% is HUGE*...What can I say?

http://www.akilaria.com/Akilaria RC3 Brochure 2.pdf

If you do not understand that if using plywood, epoxy and aluminum masts it was possible to build a lighter class 40 (than with infusion, cored hull and epoxy resins), all class 40 would be built that way...what can I say?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Comet 62*

And surprise... surprise, it is a Cat

I knew already that they were going to propose cats on their line and I was very interested and curious. Well my curiosity was satisfied in Dusseldorf and beautiful boats they are, designed by Marc Lombard. They have there models of the two first ones, a 62 and a 37. Let's look at the 62 :





And cats will not be the only news on Comet (Comar shipyard), they will be Carbon boats. I had already heard some comments coming from Comar about building carbon boats with the proper tools and techniques not to be a very dificult or even considerably more expensive than building epoxy vinylester infused boats. Well I can only hope that will not only be true but also that they will decide to expand that technique and materials to the monohull line

They say about the new cat line:

*"Comar's 2014 begins flying the Cat banner "because they are comfortable, easy to handle and control and because we are keen on the idea of creating a multihull with a fast and aggressive profile yet maintaining the comfort below deck. We noticed an affinity in Marc Lombard's designs with the present Comet range in production and hence collaboration with Marc seemed a natural choice for the start-up of this new range which, starting with a Comet Cat 62 will then move on to an 82' and a 37' "
*

I will hope that affinity from Comar with Marc Lombard will mean also that the next Comet Monohulls will be designed by Marc. I cannot wait to see a Comet monohull design by him. Comet monohulls stands for performance cruising and also regatta and offshore racing and now that short crew racing has becoming bigger and bigger in IRC, a very polivalent boat, able to be good at performance cruising, good at short crew racing and good at full crew racing makes all the sense. Marc Lombard is one of the few Na that design such a boat, competitive in several sectors.

Data for COMET 62 CAT: LOA: 18.97m LWL: 18.80m BOA: 10.23m Beam in between axes hull: 7.20m Forward freeboard: 2.20m Light Displacement: 17.00t Light CE Displacement: 18.50t Full Loaded Displacement: 25.00t Draught (board down): 3.58m Draught (board up): 1.62m Total height / Dwl: 28.70m mast Height: 26.40m Sail Area - Main: 130 m² - Solent selftacking: 74.5 m² - Furling genoa: 102 m² - Code 0: 130 m² - Staysail: 60 m² - gennaker: 160 m² - Spi assy: 300 m² Diesel Engines 2 x 75 HP Fresh water tanks: 2 x 600l Gas Oil Tanks: 2 x 300l carbon spars, PBO rigging and Spectra Construction Composite sandwich carbon / epoxy (Hull / Deck / Main bulkheads) crossbeam construction: composite carbon epoxy Accomodation, floorboards, furnatures: sandwich wood.


----------



## bobperry

Chill Paulo. You are not the Pope.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Chill Paulo. You are not the Pope.


It seems that you have nothing of relevant to say regarding the Kuka-Light to be a very light boat and continue to post meaningless things.

Yes I am not the Pope. I thought it was obvious to all.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

This is a public forum. People can voice their opinions here. That's what makes it fun. Diversity! Everyone has a say. It's the way the internet works. It's not your private sand box. The last time I looked, you don't make the rules.

What makes it fun for me is the diversity. I like to hear a wide range of ideas and opinions. I certainly do not need anyone dictating to me who I should think. I watch sports programs on TV with the sound muted. I can see what is happening. I can figure it out for myself. I sure as hell don't need a TV guy who has never played professional sports in his life explaining to me what happened and just why it happened.

I read all the posts. Sometimes I choose to comment, sometimes I don't. Do you have a problem with that? I like this thread. It is informative. Show me the boats. I can form my own opinions.


----------



## PCP

*Tan 66*

Since we are talking about new big cats we should talk about the Tan 66, a VPLP design and built by Marsaudon Composites.







A very interesting interview with the designer:






A not less interesting interview with the builder, a top carbon specialist, Marsaudon Composite:


----------



## EricKLYC

Sir Perry,

This forum is about interesting sailboats. You’re a NA, so I appreciate your expert opinion. About interesting sailboats. 

Not about the way Paulo runs this excellent thread. With respect. And mannered.
Nor about your hifi. Or your dogs. Or your personal hygiene. There I’m the expert. I’m a urologist. 

It's not about you. It's about interesting sailboats.

Regards,

Stupid


----------



## bobperry

Point taken Eric.
I have personal hygene issues all under control but I'll confer with you if the need arises.
For now I'll just treat this like a public forum.
I enjoy the dialogue. When it is a dialogue.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> ...This is a public forum. People can voice their opinions here....
> I read all the posts. Sometimes I choose to comment, sometimes I don't. Do you have a problem with that? ...


No I don't have a problem with you commenting about the posts and subjects that are being discussed. I am interested in that. I have problems with meaningless posts, unfounded comments or a rude way to address me or other members and I have a problem with you considering that your view on a subject is more valid than others:



bobperry said:


> Quoting Vimes *"I am sorry, but you obviously did not get my point."...*
> That happens around here.





bobperry said:


> ..
> 
> That commenty is just plain silly.
> ..





bobperry said:


> Chill Paulo. You are not the Pope.





bobperry said:


> .. Paulo... obviously feels threatened. ..





bobperry said:


> I think you guys are selling chines. You act like car salesmen selling a tacked on spoiler. Are the chines built in China? Is that why you call them "chines"?
> 
> I'll say it slowly this time:
> I have designed many boats with chines.
> Once again:
> I have designed many boats with chines.
> 
> This is my business. I am not a hobbyist.
> I understand chines.
> I understand chines
> 
> I have owned chined boats.
> I have owned chined boats
> 
> ...
> 
> Tsia chien
> Shin nien qui ler
> ....
> That is a really stupid statement. ...
> Tsai chien
> Gong hay fat choy





bobperry said:


> ...
> Get real Paulo. ....





bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> You don't get it.





bobperry said:


> How do you "dispense" the chines? Rules don't let you throw things overboard while racing.
> " Hey wait a minute,,,,Didn't you guys have chines at the beginning of the race?"





bobperry said:


> ...
> 
> One problem in this thread is to continue to look at this like a 2 dimensional problem. ..





bobperry said:


> I love that new X Yacht.
> No chines?
> They must be behind the times or not know what they are doing.
> Or, really know what they are doing. Yes, I think that's it.
> 
> Ha!





bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> The information is all in my last post. Read slowly.
> 
> The boat review was the Sun Odessey349. Don't recall the publication but it was English. I think they generally do the best and most honest job. ....
> 
> Clear?


(It was not the Sun Odyssey 349 but the Dufour 410, as later Bob Perry remember correctly)



bobperry said:


> .....
> 
> I rarely shower. I smell like my dogs, I wear woolen shirts. My hair looks funny. I own two pair of shoes. I'm not Euro.
> 
> (I do have an amazing, very expensive hi-fi system probably cost as much as your yacht)....





bobperry said:


> My mother's maiden name was Nanelli. Does that help?





bobperry said:


> The term "skiff" comes from the name of the inventor, Archilbald W. Skiff.


(Bob Perry invented that one)



bobperry said:


> Its Wednesday already and I haven't used either of those words yet this week.


Yes, this is a Public forum and this is a public thread but I have being pretty much running this thread. It is not about my opinion but I have been moderating the discussion here, on this thread.

All that are around, viewing it and contributing and made this one of the most popular boat thread on the net know that I try to have an open mind and accept (and thanks) all well founded contributions. They know that I try to integrate all contributions on the body of knowledge and information that this thread contains. If they would not find that way certainly they would stop following this thread.

However I will not allow anybody to have the privilege to be right, just because that's the way he thinks about it, being it a racer, a NA or a cruiser.

Your particular opinion will always be heard with attention, particularly because you are a NA but we are not designing boats and we certainly will not retain your opinion over the opinion of other NAs specially when they are contributing actively to the evolution of sail boat design, as you have done brilliantly in the past.

This thread is about interesting sailboats with a particular focus on the present and the future.

New tendencies and the state of the art in what regards new contributions to sailboat design presented and used by the most significant contemporary NA is of the essence as well to understand them and why they work, since most of them have being proved in racing by those same NAs before using them on their cruising sailboats, many of them mass produced and sailed by thousands.

Off course, Your particular opinion about yacht design, the way you see it and your present work will be of interest to all and I, as I am sure all, are very happy to have you as a member, but regarding that I second what has been proposed already and think it would be very interesting if you open a Bob Perry thread, posted and discussed there your views and your work, instead of doing that on a Steel's boat thread or here.

Of course, you will always be very welcomed here in what regards discussing subjects or boats, but not in this spirit: *"I have designed many boats with chines. This is my business. I am not a hobbyist."*

On this threads we don't have Popes. You don't need to be an Artist to be a an Art critic. In fact the best Art critics are not Artists and almost never an Artist is on a position to have an overall view of the Art Panorama neither he is on the best position to judge what are the more valid contributions to the contemporary art culture. He is to focused in what he is doing and obviously he thinks that what he is doing is the best and the right way to go.

I believe that is valid also in what regards the contemporary Yacht design Panorama, the subject of this thread.

I don't take pleasure with this kind of posts or discussions so please participate on this thread regarding topics and out of a paternalistic approach. If you do that I am quite sure we all will enjoy and appreciate your contribution.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Classics on the next Route du Rhum*






Not what you would have expected as Classics and yet they are classics, old fast racers whose performance cannot match modern ones but certainly still very enjoyable boats to race.

Many other races have boats of this "vintage" as favorites but we know that on this one all the cream of solo racers will be there.

They could extend the idea and have a class for Open60's with no canting keel: Lots of them around doing minor races. That would bring even more interest to the big one that in what regards relevance and solo racing only has an equal on the Vendee Globe, even if the last one has much less types of boats racing.


----------



## bobperry

Holy cow Paulo:
You are really spending way too much time and energy fighting me. I'm very flatterred. 

But I have a suggestion that could be useful for you:
If you go to where you can edit your preferences for this forum there is a place where you can put people on "ignore". They have it on Sailing Anarchy too. I don't use it but some do. It works until someone quotes you. Then you can't block the quote. But for you it would serve to have my posts on ignore and you would not have to read them. This would be good for you too Eric. Better than pissing and moaning.

Because, I'm not going anywhere and I have no intention of "behaving". I never have.


----------



## GBurton

Sigh. Another thread ruined by out of control egos. 

Bob, you don't belong on this thread. Its for modern boats. None of your designs are cutting edge. Stop pretending.


----------



## bobperry

Gee Burt can't recall ever saying I was cutting edge. You must have me mistaken with someone else. I'll never be "cutting edge". But I can enjoy it.


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

Thread title says "Interesting Boats" not necessarily for "modern".

Personally, I like older looking/styled boats more. The "modern" ones usually don't interest me much but they're still nice to look at to see design features.

Something about Jakatan makes it a beautiful boat that I would be more interested in myself. Beautiful craftsmanship. Makes me want to learn more about boat building. Everyone has different tastes. Doesn't mean one style should be omitted from this thread because someone else doesn't like it.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> You are really spending way too much time and energy fighting me.... I have no intention of "behaving". I never have.


Bob, not fighting you. Fighting your bad manners, rude behavior and arrogance and not even in absolute terms but just in this thread.

Here I make a point that everybody, starting by me behaves nicely. Rudeness is definitively out as well as meaningless comments. Maybe it time for you to learn how to behave otherwise you don't have a place here, you or anybody that does not know or want to "behave". This thread is interesting and lasted so long because posters around (starting by me) know how to behave and understand the importance of that even when they disagree with others.



bobperry said:


> But I have a suggestion that could be useful for you:
> If you go to where you can edit your preferences for this forum there is a place where you can put people on "ignore"....This would be good for you too Eric. Better than pissing and moaning.


Bob if i ignored what posters say on this thread it would not be an interesting thread anymore. Everybody could say what they want and all type of nonsense would have the same factual value for the ones that follow it (and they are many) and say that use this thread as a learning tool.

If I had done so things like an OVNI 39 having a similar performance as a XP 38 or that modern chines are used on cruising boats only by fashion reasons or that Computer Fluid Dynamics is not a very important tool in what regards sailboat design development or that the new Hunter 40 has a nice sailing hull would pass as truth and I would not allow that because it is just not factually true.



bobperry said:


> I like this thread. It is informative. Show me the boats. I can form my own opinions.


Yes Bob, you can use the thread for having a view about what is made regarding the best contemporary design, you can form your own opinions what you can't do is posting like your own opinions are the definitive true about the subject. After all if that was so you would not be looking at cutting edge designs on this thread but designing them.



Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> Thread title says "Interesting Boats" not necessarily for "modern".
> 
> Personally, I like older looking/styled boats more. The "modern" ones usually don't interest me much but they're still nice to look at to see design features.
> 
> Something about Jakatan makes it a beautiful boat that I would be more interested in myself. Beautiful craftsmanship. Makes me want to learn more about boat building. Everyone has different tastes. Doesn't mean one style should be omitted from this thread because someone else doesn't like it.


Nobody wants to omitte any style from this thread but the title of a thread does not say all about it. On the first post the object of the thread is clearly defined and the first sentence is:

"THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:

Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market (*only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out*)."

There are many other threads for the ones that like you prefer older designs. This one is about contemporary design.

Nothing wrong about some designs that don't fit this criteria to be posted now an then on this thread, just because they are beautiful, even if they are not the object of this thread.

I have made complete informative and extensive posts about Jakatan and silver, the two last Bob designs. I don't want pictures of them appearing out of contest on the thread like mushrooms, as it have happened already and its happening all the time in the Steel boat thread.

Bob Perry have posted many photos of boats he finds interesting on this thread .... all about his designs. I have already suggested to Bob to open one thread about his designs or if he does want a more broad subject, about classic designs made today, one where we could all see in detail his own work.

Best regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Flaar 26 - Attila Déry and Nándor Fa*

My personal WOW!!!! factor this year at Dusseldorf boat show goes to a small racer made and designed in Hungary by Attila Déry and Nándor Fa, some photos (some mine) for you to understand why:















*The boat as a lifting keel and water ballasts. It is meant for solo or short crew racing but it can also provide good fun with a crew.

They say about it:

Concept
A unique design method resulted in a hull that has extremely low wetted surface, which becomes even smaller but remains symmetrical when the boat heels. The boat itself is still wide enough to give the needed righting moment against the huge sails.

Standard equipment:
carbon mast with two spreaders, carbon boom and central bowsprit, carbon fin of 30 kg and lead bulb of 440 kg (liftable), 2 carbon rudders, 4 berths.

waterballast - transfer by gravity and/or electric pump
magnetic valves
reversible winches
backstay high gear-ratio - tensioning can be done by hand or by winching.

Specifications
Length LOA: 8.0 m
Waterline length LWL: 7.95 m
Max beam B: 2.82 m
Displacement DSPL: 900 kg
Keel: 470 kg
Draft: 2.0 m
Main: 32 m2
Jib: 20 m2
Genakker: 85/115 m2 
Mast length: 12.0 m
Crew max: 6
Crew racing: 1/3*

Of course the hull is carbon. We are going to heard more about Attila Déry and Nándor Fa. The first is a very young and talented NA the former an old Vendee Globe racer. The combined experience has allowed for some very interesting boats that I will post later, among them a new Open'60 for the next Vendee globe, already designed and on the building stage.


----------



## PCP

*Spirit of Hungry, new Open 60 (IMOCA).*

That's the boat designed by Attila Déry and Nándor Fa for the next vendee globe. It seems not clear if Nándor intends to sail it...if so that is a shame, he is quite old and should be coaching new talents that could sail the boat at 100%.











The hull seems quite conventional for an Imoca boat even if on the heavy side, with lots of ballast. He says the boat conforms to the new rules in what regards max righting moment but I have some doubts: The boat has the same beam of the winner of last edition but more 700kg of ballast. It is also 1100kg heavier.

The boat

I don't know also if it has already the new standardized mast and keel but it seems they have allowed him to carry on.

IMOCA General Assembly in Paris

Interesting anyway and one boat to follow. I don't think it will be competitive but than I might be wrong. We will see it on the race track

An interview with Nándor Fa about the boat and his conformity with the IMOCA rules:

Spirit of Hungary ocean sailing project ? Technical details by IMOCA rules


----------



## PCP

*Crazy stuff: You really don't need a big boat to coastal cruise.*

Well, that's solo sailing...We have already talked here a lot about that Mini racer that has a bath tube boat, but this one makes the Mini looks giant. It has a bathtube bow too...but contrary to the mini it is the size of a true bath tube.






The truth is that thing can sail. It even has two retractable daggerboards to go "better" upwind


----------



## PCP

*Mini J class and "La copa"*

Since we are talking about mini sailboats and crazy stuff let me tell you about La Copa:

I think everybody have seen an know those little funny boats that look like a miniature Americas's cup boat , just for a single sailor and that are a ISAF class, the one for handicapped sailors? But maybe you don't know that each year some of the best French sailors race on them in a race called "La Copa" that takes place in Trinité-sur-Mer at almost Christmas time.

Kind of funny to see sailors used to sail solo 60ft big multihulls, 40 class racers and Figaros and other classes racing hard on those little boats and I say hard because even if they take it in good fun, none of those guys like to lose

This year they joined among others Alain Gautier, Marc Guillemot, Thomas Ruyant, Erwan le Roux, Jeremie Beyou, Corentin Horeau, Morgan Lagraviere and Jean-Pierre Nicol.

Look at them:






The race was won by a less known sailor, from the J80 series, Quentin Delapierre.

Racing in little boats seems to be fun since their popularity is on the raise and not only among handicapped sailors. Here you have a Mini 12er designed by judel & vrolijk, great for match racing:






Mini 12er from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.


----------



## robelz

No pics of the Comet 37 CAT yet?


----------



## PCP

*Comet 37*



robelz said:


> No pics of the Comet 37 CAT yet?


Sorry, what I can find is very bad. They had models on the stand and I saw them. The 37 has the same rounded lines and inverted bows of the bigger boat but it is impossible to make a 37 ft cruising cat that looks good. They always look too high for the length with this size, at least for my taste.

I like the wheels position, not behind the cabin, like on most, but on the side of the boat with a good view forward. It seems that it will have (like the big one) two versions, one more sportive with daggerboards the other with fixed keels. with the one with Daggerboards the 37 has a draft of 2.24m and that is a lot, so probably will sail well upwind.

There are not many cruising cats of this size but comparing with a famous and good one, the Mahe 36 evolution from Fontaine Pajot, we can see that even on the fixed keel version the Comet has more draft (1.3 to 1.1m) is bigger but lighter (4.5T to 5.0T) and also narrower 5.65 to 5.90m. The Comet has more sail (78 m2 to 70m2). The Mahe is a great cat and a fast one. The comet 37 should be faster.

To compare with the main cat market and looking at the Lagoon 380, that is only 25cm bigger, the difference in performance should be huge since the Lagoon weights 7.3T against the 4.5T from Comet that has 1m2 more of upwind sail area.

Like the monohulls, the Comet 37 will be a performance cat, specially on the version with movable daggerboards.

This is what I could find... not much and that's why I had not posted about it:





COMET 37 CAT - technical specifications: 
Length of hull: 11.30 m 
LOA: 11.30 m 
BOA: 5.65 m 
Forward freeboard: 1.56 m 
Light Displacement: 4.5 t 
Full Loaded displacement: 6.5 t 
Draught (board down): 2.24 m 
Draught (board up): 0.95 m 
Draught (fixed keel): 1.33 m 
Total height/DwL: 16.94 m 
Mast height: 14.42 m 
Sail Area - Main: 45 m² 
- Genoa: 33 m² 
- Code 0: 44 m² 
- Gennaker: 53 m² 
- Spi assy: 80 m² 
Diesel Engines: 2x20 Hp 
Fresh water tanks: 2x150 L 
Gas oil Tanks: 2x80 L


----------



## HMoll

Here's another image of the Comet Cat 37


----------



## PCP

*Comet 37 Cat*



HMoll said:


> Here's another image of the Comet Cat 37




Where the hell did you find that picture
There was more there?

It seems nicer than on the model I saw and certainly very nice for a 37ft cat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Bavaria 41s*

Some time ago I posted about the new Bavaria 41s that seems an interesting boat for the price (assuming they have changed the anchor locker regarding the previous model):



PCP said:


> Contrary to other mass market cruisers that offer performance versions the one from Bavaria is a more serious one with a lighter boat, a true deep lead keel (2.30) a bigger and better mast, Carbon spy pole and composite steering wheels, backstay adjuster more sail area, main sheet system with ball bearing cockpit traveler, genoa cars with trim line system, 6 cockpit winches (instead of 4 and bigger), removable cockpit table and an open transom. All sail hardware is of better quality.
> 
> The boat is used for serious racing in Germany, particularly the Match racing German leg of the World's championship. Here the previous boat, the 40s.
> ...
> The keel is IRC optimized and the boat has a good rating. It can be an interesting option for someone that don't want to spend more on a performance cruiser but want a competitive boat that is also a great cruiser since the interior is the same.
> 
> As usual they are lousy at Bavaria in what regards information and we cannot have the weight of this boat. They give it as being heavier 260 kg regarding the cruiser when this boat has less ballast, has not the big swimming platform and has lighter components. A relatively heavy boat anyway.
> 
> The boat looks a lot nicer with the Open transom.


Now they have a video about it. The interior is the same as the 41, the exterior is much more interesting, at least for someone that likes to sail and have fun while doing it, trimming perfectly the sails. Have a look:


----------



## opc11

*Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails*



PCP said:


> I have been following the developments regarding this technology regarding cruising boats. In fact it is not a new thing, the French have toyed with it on the 80s in what concerns offshore racing boats but the concept never proved to have reliability and enough efficiency.
> 
> It seems to me things are changing fast and the ones that seem to be leading the ball in what concerns practicability, costs and a possible utilization on cruising boats are One sails, the Italian sail company. In fact they believe that in 15 years almost all boats will have some kind of a wing sail.
> 
> I have saw their first video (that I will re-post at the bottom) but only recently I saw one with a comparison on the water between two identical boats, one with wing sail the other with conventional high quality sails and the results are conclusive even if the sail is still in development:
> 
> The boats are Seascape 18 and we can see that the wing boat is not only faster as it can point 5º better upwind and sail downwind at a bigger angle.
> 
> The wing can be reefed and I believe that this type of soft sail wings will not take long to be available, first on racers and after in performance cruisers.
> 
> Here a previous movie with that sail on a previous phase of development.
> 
> and they are not the only ones working on it:


Paulo, glad to see you starting to warm up to the idea of the wing sail. When I first brought it up, you weren't as impressed! Might be better for solo sailing as well!

Regards,


----------



## PCP

*Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails*



opc11 said:


> Paulo, glad to see you starting to warm up to the idea of the wing sail. When I first brought it up, you weren't as impressed! Might be better for solo sailing as well!
> 
> Regards,


Hi opc!

Regarding being better for solo racing, maybe, but it will take more time. It has to do with the huge sail areas used and with the need to reef easily and have a very reliable mechanism. The sails have to be more complex and that means (at least on a development phase that can take many years) less reliable.´

Some experiences have being done on the mini racers, a true laboratory were much of the design, rigging and sail technology have been initially developed before passing to bigger racers, but till know without much sucess in what regards overall performance.

Curiously this time probably the system will be developed first in cruising than in offshore racing since Beneteau is taking it very seriously: They have equipped a Sense 46 with one and have one of the inventors and developers of the system working for them in a very serious way so serious that the boat was already been provided to the press for testing.



https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/97713379/Voiles-et-Voiliers-Decembre.pdf

I have been following and reading those tests on the French press and the good new is that the system works in what regards not only sailing but superior easiness in handling and reefing is easy. Things go so well that Beneteau says that intends to put on the market the first mass produced boat with a wing sail in two years.

The negative point is that, at least at this stage is not a performance contribution but one regarding easiness that is of main importance in what regards cruising. Yes the sail works well but the sail area is inferior and the overall performance of the Sense 46 with wing sail is worse than the one with conventional sails, not much but clearly worse.

I have no doubts that in the future it will be possible to have a superior performance and use the system also in what regards performance and racing boats...but I think it will take more time.

That's why on that post that you quoted I give a great importance to that testing with two Seascape 18 regarding the One sails solution, this one:

*Movie:*

Aile souple : la voile du futur ?

That is the first time I see a a performance cruiser with a reefable wing sail beating an identical boat with conventional but top quality sails.

But you are right, this development is of great importance and thanks to the involvement of Beneteau is happening more faster than what I thought and you were right about that

Beneteau is taking a comfortable and smart way regarding the soft wing sail mixing two technologies, the aerorig, tested in many boats including racing ones and the soft wing sail technology.

regarding aerorig, have a look:











This is the system that Beneteau uses:








In fact it makes all the sense, as it is usual on Beneteau:

the big problem of the aerorig is cost. The one developed by Beneteau is should also cost more than a traditional system but much less than a traditional aerorig because the dimensions and charges are much less important, being the sail more efficient for square meter and being almost central regarding the mast. This way the aerorig is much smaller in horizontal length, regarding its arms, much cheaper and with less charges involved.

That is not by accident that they are testing the system on their top and more expensive cruising range, the Sense, where the extra cost of this system will not be so relevant to the cost of the boat than on the other series. Very clever and probably the way to go in what regards cruising boats.

Also very cleaver from Beneteau that have being many times cutting edge regarding cruising sail boats (in what regards design) and having a less good phase some years ago (in what regards innovation) is again at the top, not only with the wing development but with the Sense series.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*The "new" Bavaria 51*

Not entirely new since it is a MkII regarding the older model the 50. The Hull is Farr designed and the previous boat featured already a very nice two rudder set up a very balanced hull and a nice displacement for a mass market 50ft: 14.1T

The beam (4.67m) is about the same as the one from the Jeanneau 509, less tham the Hanse 505 (4.75m) the Dufour 500 (4.80) or Sense 50 (4.86m). If we do not consider the Hunter 50, an older design (4.47m), the Bavaria, like the Jeanneau have the more "classsic" type of hulls, while all the others have opted by hulls more based on solo racers, with more beam and the beam more pulled back.

Those characteristics gives them much bigger transoms and cockpits as well as a sailing with less heel as well as slightly easy and comfortable downwind and beam reach performance but a slightly worse upwind and light wind performance, generally speaking. We would have to see boat by boat or even test them at the same time on the water because there are more factors that count to upwind performance like the type of frontal sail, running rig design, type of mast and back stay tensioner, sail area /displacement among others.

Anyway the difference should not be that big among them in what sail performance regards.

A nice boat, certainly nicer than the MKI with a much nicer cabin design and interior. The hull was already a good one as we can see on the last Video regarding the previous boat, the 50.

The New 51:











A sail test with the MKI, the 50:






The Bavaria 50 is by far the less expensive 50ft in Europe and probably also on the US (Standard boat delivered for $394,707). A lot of boat for the money (in what regards sailing potential and cruising amenities/interior space) and that's what defines a good mass market boat


----------



## Mr W

*Sailjet 40*

Hey guys,

After seeing this video, made by my swedish fellas at Hamnen.se, all Bavarias in the world just seem a bit dull... 

https://hamnenplay.solidtango.com/video/130905-sailjet-40

Best regards,
Mr W


----------



## robelz

Love it!
Le blog du chantier | Mojito 888


----------



## PCP

*Re: Sailjet 40*



Mr W said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> After seeing this video, made by my swedish fellas at Hamnen.se, all Bavarias in the world just seem a bit dull...
> 
> https://hamnenplay.solidtango.com/video/130905-sailjet-40
> 
> Best regards,
> Mr W


Now I understand why they designed the hull that way on the new Hunter 40...they just forget to put the big engine in

That seems to have a good performance downwind and a weak one upwind. I will stay with a same sized Bavaria (if I could not have nothing faster). Even much more heavier the Bavaria will be faster sailing (except downwind) and I just don't have the money for the Gasoline. Fact is the I am always looking for the more efficient RPM to have the better performance wasting less.

But that is just me and I sail thousands of miles for season. That super Mac can be the right answer for someone that just sails at weekends, or likes to motor a lot and have the money for it (a tank with 500L says it all).

I fully agree that if you motor, the faster the better (if money is not a problem) and faster than that on a "sailboat" is hard to do. Good looking too:



Sailjet

Thanks for posting, certainly an interesting boat in its way.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Mojito 888*



robelz said:


> Love it!
> Le blog du chantier | Mojito 888


Yes, that looks perfect and I can see the effect that panoramic view will have on the impression of interior space. Just great, I agree:



and since we talk about Malango, a video with a 1045 making a delivery trip in last November with winds from 20 to 40K. They say the boat was always controllable, the never put the spy up and even so the average speed was between 8 and 12 K surfing 14/16 with a point at 16.9K. 160.75 Nm in 19h00, at an average speed of 8.46K. Not bad for a 34ft boat not racing with sailors that didn't have experience with that boat on strong winds.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

*Re: Mojito 888*



PCP said:


> Yes, that looks perfect and I can see the effect that panoramic view will have on the impression of interior space. Just great, I agree:


The other point is the possibility to have a look out under autopilot without going outside... Seems to be a new trend (have a look at the JPK 10.80's "side windows").


----------



## PCP

*Re: Mojito 888*



robelz said:


> The other point is the possibility to have a look out under autopilot without going outside... Seems to be a new trend (have a look at the JPK 10.80's "side windows").


Yes certainly a tendency, more now than on the past but I would say that who started that a tendency in performance cruisers was RM and Marc Lombard. You can look forward on a RM even if the glass is not vertical (now it is even more inclined). That works even better with the normal small pitching movement of a sailboat.



Or maybe Finot on the Comet 11 a very advanced boat for 1977:



http://www.finot.com/bateaux/ancienbt/comet/comet11/comet11_pres.htm
http://www.finot.com/bateaux/ancienbt/comet/comet11/nautcadre.htm

Regards

Paulo


----------



## HMoll

*Re: Comet 37 Cat*



PCP said:


> Where the hell did you find that picture
> There was more there?
> 
> It seems nicer than on the model I saw and certainly very nice for a 37ft cat.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


german Comet website!


----------



## PCP

*Re: Comet 37 Cat*



HMoll said:


> german Comet website!


That's odd. On the main Italian site they have nothing yet.

I like the boat on the home page of German Comet site



But I don't understand why they don't have there the photo with two wheels version instead

Regards

Paulo


----------



## opc11

*Re: Pelicano Missing In Action*



PCP said:


> So good news. You have a ELan Dealer and a Salona dealer on the States.
> I don't know if you had saw the recent posts about the Salona 33 and the Elan 320?
> 
> Here they are:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1346993-post5855.html
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1344385-post5838.html
> 
> I would say that the Salona is a better regatta boat and the Elan a better solo one. Both has dealers in the US and the Salona 33 is going to be at the Miami boat show. If I was you I would say to both dealers that you are undecided between the two boats and that you are going to race the boat. A motivated dealer can really bring the prices down
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


So glad to be catching up on this awesome thread. I'm actually in Delray beach for a bit, so I'm definitely hitting up the Miami boat show! Thanks for the heads up!!


----------



## opc11

*Re: The Big RM*



PCP said:


> Some more photos and information: what a boat
> The interior layout is great including a big Dinghy garage and a frontal big sail locker. the boat will be very fast and light. the preliminary designs show two big water ballast (2T each) and a swing keel but all that can be still changed. As usual on RM, a Marc Lombard Design.


Paulo, I've been trying to pay attention to the location of the cockpit winches in the boats i'm most interested in. You don't see that many with the winches grouped so close to the helm as they are here. I like it from a solo'ing stance.

(anyone) I wonder if other companies are receptive to relocating winches similar to this? Are there any drawbacks to locating them in this way?

thanks,


----------



## opc11

bobperry said:


> This is a public forum. People can voice their opinions here. That's what makes it fun. Diversity! Everyone has a say. It's the way the internet works. It's not your private sand box. The last time I looked, you don't make the rules.
> 
> What makes it fun for me is the diversity. I like to hear a wide range of ideas and opinions. I certainly do not need anyone dictating to me who I should think. I watch sports programs on TV with the sound muted. I can see what is happening. I can figure it out for myself. I sure as hell don't need a TV guy who has never played professional sports in his life explaining to me what happened and just why it happened.
> 
> I read all the posts. Sometimes I choose to comment, sometimes I don't. Do you have a problem with that? I like this thread. It is informative. Show me the boats. I can form my own opinions.


I'm just catching up on posts, so I'm a bit behind. But I got to get this off my chest after reading the chines discussion....

I'm trying hard to stay out of this...Bob, I enjoyed your posts....but Bob, you're coming to a board that wouldn't be nearly as good (not even close) because of the knowledge, work and dedication that Paulo has put into it and basically krapping on his front door step. Yeah, it's a public forum, but you're detracting from it's value by "poking the lion" and it's detracting from the culture here. And it's a culture (i'm guessing) that many appreciate just the way it is/was.

Can you just give it a rest, remain constructive and stop antagonizing? I think many would and do appreciate the knowledge you bring as well. You're also a wealth of information and experience, but it's ok to politely disagree, even if someone is wrong (not saying anyone is right or wrong, just conveying it's sometimes best to just leave it alone for the benefit of the innocent bystanders).....because you're kind of in someone else's "house" if you know what I mean. Disagree without being disagreeable.

I appreciate your work especially as I learn more about it. Please take this to heart.


----------



## opc11

bobperry said:


> Holy cow Paulo:
> You are really spending way too much time and energy fighting me. I'm very flatterred.
> 
> But I have a suggestion that could be useful for you:
> If you go to where you can edit your preferences for this forum there is a place where you can put people on "ignore". They have it on Sailing Anarchy too. I don't use it but some do. It works until someone quotes you. Then you can't block the quote. But for you it would serve to have my posts on ignore and you would not have to read them. This would be good for you too Eric. Better than pissing and moaning.
> 
> Because, I'm not going anywhere and I have no intention of "behaving". I never have.


*Nothing short of pure arrogance. MAJOR BUMMER.

Bob, I had much more respect for you before tonight.*


----------



## opc11

*Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails*



PCP said:


> Hi opc!
> 
> Regarding being better for solo racing, maybe, but it will take more time. It has to do with the huge sail areas used and with the need to reef easily and have a very reliable mechanism. The sails have to be more complex and that means (at least on a development phase that can take many years) less reliable.´
> 
> Some experiences have being done on the mini racers, a true laboratory were much of the design, rigging and sail technology have been initially developed before passing to bigger racers, but till know without much sucess in what regards overall performance.
> 
> Curiously this time probably the system will be developed first in cruising than in offshore racing since Beneteau is taking it very seriously: They have equipped a Sense 46 with one and have one of the inventors and developers of the system working for them in a very serious way so serious that the boat was already been provided to the press for testing.
> 
> I have been following and reading those tests on the French press and the good new is that the system works in what regards not only sailing but superior easiness in handling and reefing is easy. Things go so well that Beneteau says that intends to put on the market the first mass produced boat with a wing sail in two years.
> 
> The negative point is that, at least at this stage is not a performance contribution but one regarding easiness that is of main importance in what regards cruising. Yes the sail works well but the sail area is inferior and the overall performance of the Sense 46 with wing sail is worse than the one with conventional sails, not much but clearly worse.
> 
> I have no doubts that in the future it will be possible to have a superior performance and use the system also in what regards performance and racing boats...but I think it will take more time.
> 
> That's why on that post that you quoted I give a great importance to that testing with two Seascape 18 regarding the One sails solution, this one:
> 
> *Movie:*
> 
> That is the first time I see a a performance cruiser with a reefable wing sail beating an identical boat with conventional but top quality sails.
> 
> But you are right, this development is of great importance and thanks to the involvement of Beneteau is happening more faster than what I thought and you were right about that
> 
> Beneteau is taking a comfortable and smart way regarding the soft wing sail mixing two technologies, the aerorig, tested in many boats including racing ones and the soft wing sail technology.
> 
> regarding aerorig, have a look:
> 
> This is the system that Beneteau uses:
> 
> In fact it makes all the sense, as it is usual on Beneteau:
> 
> the big problem of the aerorig is cost. The one developed by Beneteau is should also cost more than a traditional system but much less than a traditional aerorig because the dimensions and charges are much less important, being the sail more efficient for square meter and being almost central regarding the mast. This way the aerorig is much smaller in horizontal length, regarding its arms, much cheaper and with less charges involved.
> 
> That is not by accident that they are testing the system on their top and more expensive cruising range, the Sense, where the extra cost of this system will not be so relevant to the cost of the boat than on the other series. Very clever and probably the way to go in what regards cruising boats.
> 
> Also very cleaver from Beneteau that have being many times cutting edge regarding cruising sail boats (in what regards design) and having a less good phase some years ago (in what regards innovation) is again at the top, not only with the wing development but with the Sense series.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, I should have been more clear. My interest in this rig is for cruising not racing.

I wonder if it will be more expensive because they think it will be a big selling feature (easier to sail, less rigging to manage, less costs associated w/ maintaining the rigging) or because it's actually more expensive. My guess is the prior. I can't really tell...does this type of rig negate the need for a main traveler?

I believe some of the soft wings can be used in conjunction with foresails. Perhaps when those are accounted for, the overall performance will surpass "conventional" rigs.

I'm ECSTATIC that a large production boat builder has set their sites on this advancement. I think it will be well received in due time.

Heck of a catch (the camera) in that last movie.

Regards,


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Sailjet 40*



PCP said:


> Now I understand why they designed the hull that way on the new Hunter 40...they just forget to put the big engine in
> 
> That seems to have a good performance downwind and a weak one upwind. I will stay with a same sized Bavaria (if I could not have nothing faster). Even much more heavier the Bavaria will be faster sailing (except downwind) and I just don't have the money for the Gasoline. Fact is the I am always looking for the more efficient RPM to have the better performance wasting less.
> 
> But that is just me and I sail thousands of miles for season. That super Mac can be the right answer for someone that just sails at weekends, or likes to motor a lot and have the money for it (a tank with 500L says it all).
> 
> I fully agree that if you motor, the faster the better (if money is not a problem) and faster than that on a "sailboat" is hard to do. Good looking too:
> 
> Sailjet
> 
> Thanks for posting, certainly an interesting boat in its way.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


weird boat...
one sees that their focus was on motor boating when you look at the sailing hardware alone:
the winches are not even self tailing and the aft sheet is brought back to the winch via the cleat... 








there is also no information on the ballast apart from "Keel AISI 316 + 440 - 550 kg lead" and i think they are talking here about the central daggerboard (for what it is).
i cannot believe that this would be the only ballast for a "sailing" boat with 4500 - 5000 kg of displacement...
brochure: http://www.in-time-yachts.fi/images/stories/sailjet_tulostettava_eng_bw_web.pdf


----------



## capt vimes

oh and btw even if its older:
here is also one of those breed type of fast-motoring-sailboats:
POWERSAIL NEW ZEALAND - Innovation, Technology and Passion
but while the powersail looks like a real sailboat (2.3 t ballast on 3.3 m draft plus 2 x 1.48 t water ballast) which just happens to have an very powerfull engine on board plus a retractable drive system, the sailjet looks more like a motor boat... 
specs of the powersail:
http://www.powersail.co.nz/Powersail 15m Summary Specification.pdf


----------



## bjung

opc11 said:


> *Nothing short of pure arrogance. MAJOR BUMMER.
> 
> Bob, I had much more respect for you before tonight.*


Can we please stop the bobperry bashing?! His only infraction was disagreeing with the "Pope", the words "silly" and "stupid". Does it deserve to in return being called arrogant, rude, self-centered, etc. over and over and over? That to me is just, well...rude and silly!
I really enjoy this thread, and the participation of Bob Perry is very welcome. It adds another view, a very competent one, from the only NA here. I sure hope he sticks around and keeps giving his candid opinion, even if opposing views are not acceptable here.


----------



## PCP

*Winch location*



opc11 said:


> Paulo, I've been trying to pay attention to the location of the cockpit winches in the boats i'm most interested in. You don't see that many with the winches grouped so close to the helm as they are here. I like it from a solo'ing stance.
> 
> 
> 
> (anyone) I wonder if other companies are receptive to relocating winches similar to this? Are there any drawbacks to locating them in this way?
> 
> thanks,


OPC, glad you are enjoying the thread again and contributing.

Just two comments before going into the subject. To you and all: regarding not repeating photos on quotes that regards photos that are immediately before or very near the post in question. If the photo is needed for a better comprehension, please post it. You don't need to post them all, just the one that matters, like in this case. It helps the discussion.

Regarding Bob Perry also to you and all, independently of what I think about the subject, this is a thread about boats and I absolutely don't want it and will not continue it if it becomes something nasty, aggressive out of topic with continuous chit chat and wise cracks, like happened to the steel boat thread.

Here we talk about boats not about persons. Regarding Bob Perry I am still waiting for a contributing post that does not try to contradict something that I, a post about a new boat were he actually express an opinion about it or about any technical feature on it and I would not say more. Off course I don't mean one of his boats.

Regarding your question:

I would say that there is a very clear tendency regarding putting winches at the reach of a solo sailor and that are most cruisers (with a little help from the wife). There is also a very clear tendency to reduce the number of winches on mass market cruising boats. That has to do with reducing costs but also because most sailors that sail those boats don't use them. If you look to all main market mass produced boats you will see that they have a winch near the wheels (on each side) but the rigging will not allow another winch to be installed. The only exception is Bavaria that has an option for a second winch on the cockpit but far away from the wheel.

But I guess that you are talking about performance boats and there the problem is different. All that does not have a purchase system for the main and that means pretty much all that are bigger than 40ft, have 4 winches on the cockpit (and normally two over the cabin) but here the ideal position is more complicated because in what regards racing or crewed sailing having all the winches grouped together is not a good idea.

I think that it is a very interesting discussion and I will get back to it after refreshing my memory with what the market has to offer in what regards performance cruisers, with some pictures.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails*



opc11 said:


> Yes, I should have been more clear. My interest in this rig is for cruising not racing.
> 
> I wonder if it will be more expensive because they think it will be a big selling feature (easier to sail, less rigging to manage, less costs associated w/ maintaining the rigging) or because it's actually more expensive. My guess is the prior. I can't really tell...does this type of rig negate the need for a main traveler?
> 
> I believe some of the soft wings can be used in conjunction with foresails. Perhaps when those are accounted for, the overall performance will surpass "conventional" rigs.
> 
> I'm ECSTATIC that a large production boat builder has set their sites on this advancement. I think it will be well received in due time.
> 
> Heck of a catch (the camera) in that last movie.
> 
> Regards,


Yes, very interesting developments but regarding the rig I think it is very informative the choice of the boat and the series were they are developing it:

They are not developing it on a performance cruiser, like for instance on a First 45 but on the more expensive cruising line. That probably means two things: the priority in the development is not performance neither price.

Anyway if Benetau is developing it it means that they believe it can be produced at prices that can still make their top range boats competitive in what regards selling boats and that is just great.

It also means that they think that the rig offers advantages regarding a traditional rig for cruising...and they are rarely mistaken and that's why they are the biggest sail boat manufacturer. For that and because they know how to associate the best developments on sailboat design to inexpensive cruising boats, making better and affordable boats adapted to what most sailors want. They are leading again, as many times, in what regards mass market cruising boats and not only

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Sailjet 40*



capt vimes said:


> weird boat...
> one sees that their focus was on motor boating when you look at the sailing hardware alone:
> the winches are not even self tailing and the aft sheet is brought back to the winch via the cleat...
> ....
> there is also no information on the ballast apart from "Keel AISI 316 + 440 - 550 kg lead" and i think they are talking here about the central daggerboard (for what it is).
> i cannot believe that this would be the only ballast for a "sailing" boat with 4500 - 5000 kg of displacement...
> brochure: http://www.in-time-yachts.fi/images/stories/sailjet_tulostettava_eng_bw_web.pdf


The boat is not really a sailboat but a boat that can use the wind to sail downwind fast or go upwind in light winds and not pointing very well. Reaching will go well in light but at medium winds it would not have the power (RM) to go fast and it will be dangerous in strong winds (sailing).

I would have said that the CE certification for the boat in what regards sailing would not even reach B criteria and that really confuses me since they announce a CE certification A?????

Probably the boat was certified as motorboat not sailing boat? Can MR W shed some light on this subject?

Regarding ballast on the file it is confusing but they also say :* "The centreboard has a lead ballast of ca 500 kg cast into AISI 316 steel cover. The water and fuel tanks as well the batteries play an active role in stabilizing the yacht minimizing the need for passive dead weight."*

Off course they give the idea that 500kg of ballast and not even with a keel with a low CG, it is enough for the boat giving its lightness but what they mean is that it is enough for that type of boat that is not really a sailboat

Saying that, the boat is what it is and besides the brochure be misleading (and that can be dangerous) it is an interesting mixed boat for that ones that want just that. It is designed by some junior NA under the supervision of Karl-Johan Stråhlmann and Stråhlmann is a great NA, responsible for many good and interesting boats like some Finngulfs, by the cute Maestro and also for the Saare.

I have no doubt that they knew what were doing even if that detail you have posted regarding the rigging shows that regarding sailing some things are really odd and deserved a better thought

...and that certification on A category is really a mystery. I don't understand how the boat can pass the minimum required AVS. MR W, can you have a look at that?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bjung said:


> Can we please stop the bobperry bashing?! His only infraction was disagreeing with the "Pope", the words "silly" and "stupid". ...
> 
> Also, there have been more than one occasion where Paulo has exhibited a very arrogant and rude stance as well, here and in other threads. As in "Americans like crude, less skillfull sports (boats)"


I pretty much run this thread but I am no Pope here even if the object of this thread is well marked on the first post.

Putting quotes out of context and not exact quotes it is not appropriated nor nice.

Generically what American sailors like is expressed on the American sailboat market, and that's what I was talking about when said the above "quote" that is obviously accurate regarding the comparison with European sailors and European market: On america there is not any performance cruiser builder with any serious penetration on the market and the bigger one (Jboats) sell more performance cruisers on Europe than on the States. All European performance cruisers or don't have US dealers or if they have their sales are just residual regarding the all of American sailboat market.

As performance cruisers are less crude and more skillful boats to sail and his percentage on the market is incomparably bigger on Europe that in the states I don't see why you disagree with me or why you think that is an arrogant statement.



bjung said:


> , " Americans are just behind times in what regards the estetics of boats"


Here I think you are messing up. I had not said that and I certainly did not have talked about "estetics", that is a subjective matter but about boat design quality that is an objective one. It seems you don't know the difference and that confuses you. I use (and used) the term in a technical way that has little to do with aesthetics:

"designers attempt to optimize a design candidate for known constraints and objectives,.......Interior Designer implies that there is more of an emphasis on Planning, *Functional design and effective use of space involved in this profession, as compared to interior decorating.*...An interior designer may wish to specialize in a particular type of interior design in order to develop technical knowledge specific to that area."

wiki

what I said related with boat interior design that in American brands is still made by the staff from the shipyard and not by the best dedicated professional cabinets as it is on most European boats. While European boats are designed by the best NA and the best interior designers (two different teams working together) American mass produced boats are designed by the in the house technicians. That explains the difference in quality, particularly in what regards interior design quality, that again, as I explained, has little to do with aesthetics. You can have different high quality interior design following very different aesthetically lines.



bjung said:


> (*sorry, but the Bene O38, really looks like a bloated tennis shoe!)*, or, "This boat is ugly. If you like it you must be British!" (Gunfleet 43) and so on....
> ..


Regarding that comparison with Bob's qualification of the Oceanis 38, he is expressing a fact : *"the Bene 038 really look like"* I am expressing my personal opinion (and leave that clear) and have the care to say that it is far from unanimous since I say that the British like the boat. I am saying that personally I don't share some of the aesthetic British tastes in boats not saying that they have bad taste or that mine is better, In what regards aesthetics and tastes we enter a very subjective area:



PCP said:


> . .. I don't doubt that it is well built but I wonder if Tony Castro could not have come up with a nicer design. I find the boat really ugly....But I guess that if many British like the boat you can like it to.


 As I have said before I don't have no objection to the participation of Bob on this thread providing he does that with me and other members in a normal way and not in a paternalistic way, calling names (stupid, silly, myopic) to all that don't share is views and stop with incomprehensible comments and wise cracks. I am no asking more or less than what I ask to myself or to all the others that contribute to this thread. Provided he does it in a "normal" and polite way (as all) I am very pleased to have him around as one of the contributors.

I really don't like this sort of argument here, this thread is about boats and I want a good ambiance here, a convivial and polite one. I Hope this is settled for good.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Jung:
No worries. I'll watch the thread but I'll keep my comments on the boats to myself.
I appreciate your kind concern.

Paulo doesn't like rude but he is the master of snide and smarm.
I don't care for his myopic view of the world of yachts and yachting and his constant ignorant and stereotypical comments about the "US taste" in boats.
His view that he makes the rules for this public forum are bizarre. 

But I do like to look at the various boats he posts. I give him credit for keeping the thread going with interesting boats that for the most part are out of my world. If I didn't see many of the boats here I most probably would never see them. Can't have that.

But, Paulo and I are never going to get along. I'll take responsability for that.


----------



## Mr W

*Re: Sailjet 40*



PCP said:


> Probably the boat was certified as motorboat not sailing boat? Can MR W shed some light on this subject?
> 
> Regarding ballast on the file it is confusing but they also say :* "The centreboard has a lead ballast of ca 500 kg cast into AISI 316 steel cover. The water and fuel tanks as well the batteries play an active role in stabilizing the yacht minimizing the need for passive dead weight."*
> 
> ...and that certification on A category is really a mystery. I don't understand how the boat can pass the minimum required AVS. MR W, can you have a look at that?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Well, the guys in the video point out that the batteries and engine are used as part of ballast, but not much more is said about this. I guess that using two masts lower the point of pressure, making the need for ballast less than on a normal sailboat. They don´t mention anything regarding type of category for certification, but I think it must be as sailboat.

I find the boat very interesting, not saying though that I would want to own one  I think I´ll stick to my Dragonfly!

In the test, they claim that the boat actually sail pretty well...! I can´t see this boat pointing very well though, not with the sails sheeted so far out to the sides. Anyway, thought it was interesting enough to post about 

Mr W


----------



## robelz

Jörg Riechers: Das finale Mare Refit ? Mehr Volumen im Bug und 400 Kilo gespart | SegelReporter

News of the mare (IMOCA) refit: They put a lot more volume in the bow and reduced the total weight by 400kg. With modifications on the water ballast they want to save some more 200kgs...


----------



## FirstCandC

Maybe there can be a separate thread for interesting traditional boats? The boats on this thread are all super, but probably not attainable for the average person looking for a future somewhat affordable boat (which seems to be a popular entry question here).


----------



## bobperry

C&C:
Yes, I think you are correct.
I have been hard at work this week on a major change, I see it as major to the new 62 Pacific Seacraft ketch.

For me it is an interesting project but I don't think it fits Paulo's definition of "interesting" and I respect that he sets the theme for the boats posted here. The PSC 62 would not be a good fit here. It's quite a traditional American approach to styling. Not "backwards". Not "behind the times" but certainly by design and client requirements, far from Euro.

So. as soon as we get the 3d model of the change finalized I'll probably start a different thread where diversity of design is presented and contrary opinions are not only allowed but encouraged.


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> News of the mare (IMOCA) refit: They put a lot more volume in the bow and reduced the total weight by 400kg. With modifications on the water ballast they want to save some more 200kgs...


I am happy to see that they are trying to take the most of an older boat and I hope they can make it competitive face to the the last generation of racers even if I have doubts that is totally possible. We will see about that on the Barcelona world race and I wish the best for Riechers that is a great sailor and has a large future ahead. I have been following Riechers since the mini and always been impressed with his performance.

I still think that Riechers deserved a better boat and I am amazed he cannot find in Germany sponsorship that allows him that. Maybe if he can pull some good results with this old boat and with that he can find the money for a brand new one for the next Vendee. I really hope that

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Myopic vews*



bobperry said:


> ...
> Paulo doesn't like rude but he is the master of snide and smarm.
> I don't care *for his myopic view of the world of yachts and yachting *and his constant *ignorant and stereotypical* comments about the "US taste" in boats....


As usually unfounded and rude comments. That's what I was talking about: Who does not take the same view as you have on NA has a myopic view even if your view is one that has nothing of contemporary or as you have yourself stated, not cutting edge.

You know Bob, being polite has to do also with not expressing in words what we really think about someone else if that thought can be rude or disagreeable but as you insist in calling myopic to my view on Naval Yacht Architecture, for once I will be as rude as you and I will say that from my perspective your's is just outdated and not just by a small margin.

Of course I am not saying it is, just my opinion about it, like yours regarding mine: Myopic.

I would say that a myopic view should not attract such a number of good contributors to this thread or so many followers...but then maybe they are all myopic too, who knows

I wish you the best for your thread that I will follow with interest.

Regard

Paulo


----------



## robelz

Home | Fareast

A new 33 and a ne 36 CAT. The 36's hull looks nice, the rest is pure crap...


----------



## SunnyG

First time poster, long time lurker.

Paulo, please keep the high road and continue to unofficially moderate the best sailboat thread on the Internet. I get a lot more from this thread than any of the traditional magazines and their entirely predictable "reviews".

I feel like I am watching a train wreck in slow motion...


----------



## PCP

*Fareast 36 cat*

I like these Chinese boats and this ones are not just some European or American using China cheap work labor to make less expensive boats. No these are really Chinese boats and they are not outdated as one could suppose. The management by European perspective is made by kids: they are all very young, including the director that is a girl, and a very nice one

They made dinghies, wired a good NA firm, Simonis / Voogd, made a very interesting 26ft cruiser racer (just a couple of years ago) then last year an even more interesting cutting edge 31ft racer and now a very interesting weekender cat that I bet will be followed by a cruising one with more interior space and the same platform.

The boat is just beautiful and I bet that these kids in 10 years will be major players on the Yacht market.

(you can see posts both about the 26ft as the 31R on this thread, I have been following their work with interest).







Specifications :

LOA (hull length) 10.97 m
LWL (Waterline Length) 10.83 m
Beam 6.20 m
Draft 0.85 m
Weight 5.2 t
Sail area 71.0 sqm
Designer Simonis / Voogd


----------



## PCP

SunnyG said:


> First time poster, long time lurker.
> 
> Paulo, please keep the high road and continue to unofficially moderate the best sailboat thread on the Internet. I get a lot more from this thread than any of the traditional magazines and their entirely predictable "reviews".
> 
> I feel like I am watching a train wreck in slow motion...


Welcome to sailnet and to this thread too.

Thanks for the incentive and know that you are not a lurker anymore participate on the thread

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Tjörn Runt 2013: The big movie*

I have posted here about last edition of this great race on the North of Europe, posted some good movies too but this one is just awesome and a big one. Most of you, with the exception of Mr W and some Nordic followers, don't understand a word but images have no language as I believe you don't need words to see the shine on the eyes of that old sailor that in his old boat and with his old crew seems to be making a hell of a race and is certainly having a lot of fun. I bet he was feeling 30 years younger

I trully enjoyed this movie, I hope you too:


----------



## robelz

*Re: Fareast 36 cat*



PCP said:


> and now a very interesting weekender cat that I bet will be followed by a cruising one with more interior space and the same platform.


I think you are right: This one is for the charter market and can take 25(!) guests (on a 36-feeter)...


----------



## PCP

*Hanse 675*

The boat market took a funny swing: There are less small sailboats being sold...but also bigger sailboats being sold. Having less sailboats being sold was inevitable with the crisis hitting the middle class but bigger boats being on the raise was completely unexpected and a very good thing for the shipyards. Many have found a way of escaping financial problems diverting the production to bigger yacht.

Some would say that this is a bad thing but I don't think so. Truth is that there are more people wanting to sail, at least in Europe even if the crisis had diminished the number of sales (but not the total value). Let's hope the crisis goes way and the middle class has again the means to buy sailboats. The brands will still be there partially because the rich ones decided that sail was cool. Thanks to them and to the ones that prefer sailboats to motorboats.

This tendency has as reflex that all mass market shipyards have been increasing the size of their bigger boats that today in many is over 60ft, something unthinkable 15 years ago.

Let's have a look at the new Hanse 675....it seems yesterday that Hanse started to make sailboats....a 675, very impressive, not only the boat but the growing of the brand and that means certainly something in what regards the overall quality

On this one I even like more the interior that seems really cozy even if the style is not one that I favor, but the design quality seems to have improved a lot.

Also in what regards interior and lightening we can see one of the modern tendencies, with a high freeboard that allows a very low cabin with the illumination being mostly zenithal with lots of transparent surfaces. Also the size and location of port hulls creates a true "window" effect providing a great sea view from the salon and cabins. Like the previous model the boat has a big garage able to carry a big dingy. It looks fast too and I am sure it is fast.

Nice passage maker, a judel-vrolijk design.


----------



## opc11

Paulo,

I think the healthy upper end market is a reflection of the underlying dichotomy in global economies. There's two very separate stories evolving. The middle class are not doing as well as the upper class, hence the higher end market is increasingly gaining the attention of boat yards.

Regards,


----------



## PCP

*Production shipyards betting on big yachts.*



opc11 said:


> Paulo,
> 
> I think the healthy upper end market is a reflection of the underlying dichotomy in global economies. There's two very separate stories evolving. The middle class are not doing as well as the upper class, hence the higher end market is increasingly gaining the attention of boat yards.
> 
> Regards,


Sure but while the middle class has troubles (and that explains why the sales on small and medium sized yachts lowered) that would have not mean necessarily that on the upper class the interest in sailing was on the rise. I believe that is more an European thing (by the number of shipyards and new sailboats), at least in what regards sailing yachts.

Some more that come recently to the market or are at the design stage, coming from production Brands that used to make smaller boats:

The Wauquiez 65 by Berret-Racoupeau:





The Gunfleet 74 by Tony Castro



the Oyster 725 by Rob Humphreys





The Halberg Rassy 63 by German Frers



The Contest 72 by Georg Nissen





The CNB (Benetau) 76 by Philippe Briand



Jeanneau 64 by Philippe Briand





Ice 80 and 100 by Felci







The Mylius 18E35 by Alberto Simeone



Advanced 66 By Reichel-Pugh



and there are a lot more like the Salona 60 and 65 and the X6 from X yachts (posted recently).

Even some American brands (made in China) has presented new and more interesting boats, like the relatively new Hylas 63 by German Frers



Also on the small market of traditional and classic sailingboats we can see new big boats coming on:

The Spirit 110 and 130





The Farlie 77






The Pacific Seacraft 61 by Robert Perry



 

http://www.pacificseacraft.com/566287/renderings/

And also the Bestevaer series built by K&M and designed by Dykstra even if on this ones the size seems to have stabilized around the 55/56ft.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Fareast 36 cat*



PCP said:


> I like these Chinese boats and this ones are not just some European or American using China cheap work labor to make less expensive boats. No these are really Chinese boats and they are not outdated as one could suppose. The management by European perspective is made by kids: they are all very young, including the director that is a girl, and a very nice one
> 
> They made dinghies, wired a good NA firm, Simonis / Voogd, made a very interesting 26ft cruiser racer (just a couple of years ago) then last year an even more interesting cutting edge 31ft racer and now a very interesting weekender cat that I bet will be followed by a cruising one with more interior space and the same platform.
> 
> The boat is just beautiful and I bet that these kids in 10 years will be major players on the Yacht market.
> 
> (you can see posts both about the 26ft as the 31R on this thread, I have been following their work with interest).
> 
> 
> 
> Specifications :
> 
> LOA (hull length) 10.97 m
> LWL (Waterline Length) 10.83 m
> Beam 6.20 m
> Draft 0.85 m
> Weight 5.2 t
> Sail area 71.0 sqm
> Designer Simonis / Voogd


This look similar to the South African Seascape 39


----------



## PCP

*Seascape 29*

Yes, the fareast more modern on the hulls and design but the same basic concept and general design. I can't find information on that boat but it is not also a Simonis / Voogd design? Those two, or at least one of them came from South Africa to Holland (Boer's descendants) and they still have a NA cabinet in South Africa.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*On design : Winches location for solo sailing.*

Getting back to that OPC question and talking about boats with more than 40ft (smaller boats can have a purchase system for the main sheet if the system runs on the cockpit and only need two).

As I have pointed out there are two cases, main mass market cruisers and performance cruisers.

Regarding main market cruisers the tendency is to have a single winch near each wheel and have also there the blocks, so you block one line and use the winch on the other sheet. Whit this system, due to the rigging and position of blocks it is almost impossible to add another winch. Regarding these boats only Bavaria offers the possibility of another pair of winches, but those are not near the wheel. There are two exception that I know off and I will talk about them later.

Regarding performance cruisers only very recently that was taken into consideration (with some very few exceptions) and the normal set up was to have 4 winches on the cockpit but well separated and none near the wheel. The reason has to do with giving more space for maneuver when the boat is used for crewed racing. The First 40, the Salona 410, The Comet 41s, the Xp 38, the Dehler 41 don't have any winch at easy reach from the wheels man.

Then on the some very recent performance cruisers they started taking more into consideration the needs of a solo sailor regarding the balance between what is optimal in solo sailing and racing and started to have one winch more near the wheel (on each side) and the other far way.

That's the case for instance of the new Elan 400:





Or the RM 1260



Let me point out that if on the RM you use a two tillers system (I think they have it on option) the problem is sorted out because with the extension you can reach the other winch. That's how it works on the Pogo 12.50:



The first performance cruiser to take that balance much more for solo sailing than for crewed racing was Dufour that on their performance line developed a system that is now used by other brands. Both the two winches from each side are easily accessible to a solo sailor:

The 40e:





The 45e:





Some other recent performance boats adopted the system, that's the case with the Azuree 46:



And I bet the next one, the new Azuree 40 will have that system too.

You can also make it easy for the solo sailor with only 3 winches near the wheel providing one is central and direct or German sheeting is used. That's what the Maxi 1200 does (even if I don't understand a performance boat without traveler). The system can also work with traveler but has to be rigged in another way.



Regarding the main market cruisers that use 3 or 4 winches easily accessible to the solo sailor, one is a very expensive boat, this Year's European luxury boat, the Contest 42CS. They propose multiple options regarding rigging including adapted to solo sailors:









and the other one is not a particularly expensive one for its size and it is the Dufour, the new 500 from the main line (Grand Large):







The problem was solved in an elegant way and a functional one. I looked to see if the 410 had space for the same...but it has not. With the winch there there is no space to sit at the wheel.



On the even newer Dufour 560 they have also the same system as on the 500 but even with more space and probably working even better:


----------



## opc11

Despite my more focused cruising interest (odd since i'm generally a pretty competitive guy who once upon a time loved racing lasers, 420's, 470's as a kid) a traveler would still be important to me but it's placement would have to allow for a sheltered cockpit. That rules out having it on the cockpit floor.

The central main winch is also easy to rule out for me. None of the other options looked as appealing as the Dufour 500's setup from a solo cruising standpoint. Plus, despite them being clustered around the helm, I wouldn't be afraid to enter some races (with a crew) in a cruising class (with low expectations...at least at first ;-) ). Nothing to fear when you don't fully know what you're doing!  

Thanks for assembling a great display of boats/cockpits. Very interesting as I learn more about the nuances of larger boats.


----------



## Edward3

Wheels, Travelers and Winches

Having steered some dual wheel 40' boats, I can say sitting down and reaching for the main sheet winch and traveler is rather uncomfortable due main sheet winch is usually set up for main sheet trimmer just forward of the wheel along with traveler controls. I would think most would find steering while standing and having the ability to walk back and forth between wheels and forward into cockpit (while on autohelm) very convenient. 

Reminds me of Dennis Conner sitting on the rail with a big destroyer wheel

Hard to tell what the two winches are for sitting on end of bench seats.

For a shorthanded or solo sailor, a central mounted mainsheet winch and traveler located in the cockpit is way to go.


----------



## PCP

*Wheels, Travelers and Winches*



Edward3 said:


> Wheels, Travelers and Winches
> 
> Having steered some dual wheel 40' boats, I can say sitting down and reaching for the main sheet winch and traveler is rather uncomfortable due main sheet winch is usually set up for main sheet trimmer just forward of the wheel along with traveler controls. I would think most would find steering while standing and having the ability to walk back and forth between wheels and forward into cockpit (while on autohelm) very convenient.
> 
> Reminds me of Dennis Conner sitting on the rail with a big destroyer wheel
> 
> Hard to tell what the two winches are for sitting on end of bench seats.
> 
> For a shorthanded or solo sailor, a central mounted mainsheet winch and traveler located in the cockpit is way to go.


Regarding what is the better setup for a solo sailor regarding the two possible wheel setup (Two or single) regarding reaching the winches I have not any doubt, I mean if the boat is sportive and the wheel is really big, as it is on mine, it is much easier with two wheels specially if the weather is bad and the boat is strongly heeled. I have many hours of sailing with the two types of set up, 3 weeks sailing every day on two different boats with two wheel setup (and smaller times with other boats) and a huge time on mine and I sail always practically solo with an occasional small help from my wife. Off course this is a personal view. A single big wheel has advantages in what regards sensibility and feeling and a two wheel set up has to be pretty good and expensive not to give a numb sensation at the wheel. One of those boats that I mentioned, a Dufour 425GL had an effective steering but not a lively one. The other one, a Salona 41 was much better but even so not as good as the big wheel of my boat in what regards being informative.

Basically the main problem is going out from behind that big wheel with the boat heeled and get back in. Not always an easy task specially when the weather is bad and you are wearing an harness or the boat is strongly heeled. On a single wheel setup you have to unclip and clip again on the other side of the wheel. With two wheels even with an harness you can run a jack-line along the cockpit that allows safe movement and serves also for the steering post.

Regarding the traveler I agree with you.

Regarding the winches I believe that we both agree that one should be mounted on each side near the wheel and easily run from the steering post. Regarding the other winch I surely would prefer the system that it is mounted on Dufour, with winches side by side, both at easy reach, than to have to go forward leaving the wheel to reach a winch way forward.

Regarding a single winch to be the better solution than the two parallel ones I would have to try both solutions but I have some doubts about how that can be made without making difficult the use of the traveler. Without a traveler, like it is used on the Contest and on the Maxi 1200 it seems a great solution to me. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying that it would not work, just saying that it would depend where the traveler is and how the two things work together. it also occupies more space on the cockpit and dificult the movement forward.

Never tried the system used on the last models of the Dufour performance (two winches side by side) but I have already sailed in recent sailboats with the aft winch near the wheel and I can only say that I wished my boat had one like that

I believe the system with the two winches in parallel if well rigged and done work well for a solo sailor. If it was not the case they would have already changed the system on Dufour (it has already some years now) and other boats and designers would not have started to use it also.

Does anybody have sailed a Dufour with those two parallel winches?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*RC 44 First match*


----------



## PCP

*Mylius 18e35*

I love this boat and I love the spirit of the guys behind it:

*"Mylius was born in 2003 from a dream and the love for sailing of three men. Mario Sassi, Alberto Simeone and Mauro Montefusco always lived sailing as their big passion, since childhood; then, after various professional experiences in other sectors, they launched a completely new company, able to reflect their way of living and loving the sea.

In 2004 "Wednesday", the first Mylius 11E25, was launched, a boat with many great innovations, including the dinette in the bow and the large sun-bathing area aft, then copied by many different shipyards.

In 2007 the first Mylius 14E55 was launched, a fast cruiser-racer without sacrifices in terms of comfort, but winning in high-level regattas - as the two Italian ORC International Championships won by "Fra Diavolo" in 2009 and 2010. ...

Like all Mylius Yachts, the 18E35 is a fast cruiser-racer, a true "Grandturing" able to combines at best comfort, performance, quality and design. The Mylius 18E35 is a very comfortable, easy and safe yacht, with wide sunbathing areas, cosy cockpit and interiors and very complete equipments; is a very fast and balanced yacht, under any sailing conditions and with any crew, and very competitive when racing; above all, is an elegant and sophisticated yacht, completely built and rigged in carbon, with great attention to even the smallest details, to last and maintain value over time.

Furthermore, being built on request, every Mylius can be personalized based on the specific needs and desires of every owner and become a really unique yachts, able to express his own way of sailing."*

and they also say about it:

*"The sleek lines and the careful distribution of the hull's volumes make it a thoroughbred with exciting performance, but also able to provide its guests with all the necessary amenities when cruising.

The boat therefore features a medium-light displacement, high waterline length and low water surface. The high sail-to-displacement ratio is balanced by the high righting moment, achieved via both the deep keel and a high shape stability, consequence of the generous beam."*

I love the "medium-light displacement" part: this 60ft weights 15900kg and 6200kg are ballast.

http://www.mylius.it/pdf/Brochure Mylius 18E35 2013_01.pdf

I had already posted a short video but did not notice that there was a big one and this boat deserves all the minutes of it. I could fall in love with something like this if I had the money for it.

It is designed and engineered by Tommy Testa Dura, I mean Alberto Simeone.


----------



## PCP

*Luffe 3.6*



For the first time we have a decent movie on the 3.6 one that shows very well the boat. It is from the Yacht.de test on the boat. Robelz if you happen to read this one do you mind to share with us the general impressions? Yacht.de is one of the magazines whose tests are generally trustworthy.

It seems they like the boat since they comment:

*"It took to Luffe 34 years to find a successor for the 37. The first contact with the new 3.6 convinced us in what regards sailing ability and interior. "*

One of the things that was very well sorted out in this boat was the need of having a standing height. All modern 36ft have standing height but the 37, a very beautiful old narrow boat was far from that and the traditional low cabins that are a Luffe trademark would make that very difficult without increasing much freeboad. The compromise between these factors was very good and the boat looks elegant like a Luffe and the extra freeboard is barely noticeable.



*The movie:*

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Luffe-36-%...C3%84sthetin/5ff41af001e1986976c3e17316c13801

Robelz, I am particularly curious about what they say regarding sailing ability and this boat not being equipped with a traveler.


----------



## bobperry

What is a "standing weight"? That is a new term for me.


----------



## robelz

I will watch the movie on Sunday...


----------



## PCP

*Babouchka and the craziest sail voyage ever.*

Yes they are French and radical sailors. They had already made the Northwest passage in a sailing boat without engine and as that seemed too easy for them they are trying something more difficult: To sail the Arctic sea passing by the North Pole, yes off course it is covered with ice but they seemed not to care. They have tried two times and did not succeed, being caught in Arctic storms.

Will they give up? I don't think so, these are the king of guys that or they accomplish what they dream or will die trying. Stubborn but also incredibly brave guys that drive away polar bears with flares. I missed is last adventure because I was cruising (I followed here his Northwest passage without an engine) and I will continue to follow their mad attempts. I would not be surprised if they succeed. Sebastien Roubinet and Vincent Berthet, Chapeau to them











Sébastien Roubinet - Accueil

Admiral Makarov Meets Babouchka in the Central Arctic


----------



## bobperry

Can someone please explain to me the term "standing weight"?


----------



## paulk

Standing weight is the weight of the gear you lose when you do an accidental gybe or broach with all sails standing? It should probably include the spinnaker pole, pieces of the spinnaker and maybe parts of the mast or boom? The holding tank contents? Good question.


----------



## knuterikt

bobperry said:


> Can someone please explain to me the term "standing weight"?


In what context?
Could it be some strange translation?

EDIT:


> One of the things that was very well sorted out in this boat was the need of having a *standing weight*. All modern 36ft have *standing height* but the 37, a very beautiful old narrow boat was far from that and the traditional low cabins that are a Luffe trademark would make that very difficult without increasing much freeboad. The compromise between these factors was very good and the boat looks elegant like a Luffe and the extra freeboard is barely noticeable.


Looks like a typo for "standing height" = "head room" in English i think


----------



## bobperry

Knut:
Got it. That makes sense.


----------



## Faster

paulk said:


> Standing weight is the weight of the gear you lose when you do an accidental gybe or broach with all sails standing? It should probably include the spinnaker pole, pieces of the spinnaker and maybe parts of the mast or boom? .....


And the chunk of your noggin?

I think Knute's got it and it's a typo re 'headroom'..


----------



## PCP

knuterikt said:


> In what context?
> 
> EDIT:
> Quote:
> "One of the things that was very well sorted out in this boat was the need of having a *standing weight*. All modern 36ft have *standing height* but the 37, a very beautiful old narrow boat was far from that and the traditional low cabins that are a Luffe trademark would make that very difficult without increasing much freeboad. The compromise between these factors was very good and the boat looks elegant like a Luffe and the extra freeboard is barely noticeable."
> 
> Looks like a typo for "standing height" = "head room" in English i think


Yes you get it, a typo . It was easily understandable in the context. The post was edited; it what was already clear almost for all it is clear for all now.

regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 30 versus Winner 900*

On their own way two of the most interesting 30ft performance cruisers launched recently but those ways are pretty much opposed : A boat following the mini tradition, very beamy and another, relatively narrow, on the more classic ORC tradition and even among those on the ones that follow more classic lines.

what are the differences?

The winner 900 showed that in light winds it can be as fast as the Pogo and the Pogo will smock the Winner in stronger winds in all points of sail except upwind where probably the mach will be close (if it is the winner performance version).

Probably upwind, in bad seas with waves, the Winner will be faster again, or maybe not, only a true test or racing results will shed more light on that, anyway the performance in what regards upwind VMG would not be very different while downwind and on a beam reach with medium to strong winds the Pogo would be much faster.

The differences don't stop here since the cockpits and interiors are also very different, both much bigger on the Pogo but size is not all and even if the Pogo offers a functional interior, even for offshore and long range cruising, the one of the winner is incomparably more comfy, giving a very nice ambiance and it also a very functional and good one in what regards cruising.

The prices, for comparable versions (winner performance), will not be that different.

Two great performance cruisers but not for the same sailor. I bet that the ones that would like to own a winner are not the ones that would like to own a Pogo. Take your pick

Winner 900:















Pogo 30:













The new Pogo-30 2013 from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*Contemporary classics Pilot Cutters*

Several NA have been using the Pilot cutter "model" for developing wonderful classic contemporary boats using on the traditional hull modern torpedo keels and spade rudders diminishing that way wet surface not only on the keel and rudder as on the overall area since that allows for lighter boats.

The Cutter model is chosen not only because they were beautiful but because that way the boat only needs for conforming with the model to have overhangs aft, being the bow a straight one and that significantly increases LWL and boat performance regarding a classic boat with big overhangs (at the bow and transom). The owners of these boats like classical boats but are sailing enthusiasts and don't want slow boats, not for cruising and not for racing since most indulge in some racing.

This is one of the last from the Pilot Cutter series by André Hoeck, the 85ft Windhunter II:







From Dijkstra, a 90ft pilot cutter:







And also from Dijkstra a 181ft Pilot cuter:







It is amazing how the hull is well proportioned. looking at it we would say that it is a very nice 60 or 65ft sailboat. No, it is the same boat with all its 181ft

A suggestion: Click on the photo then click on the photo on photobuck and the in the + signal. Those photos deserve to be seen in full size


----------



## PCP

*And another kind of beauty: Fast cat 80*

Just a bit smaller than those boats but surely faster this Lombard/Darnet design:


----------



## PCP

*RC 44 first match at Virgin Gorda*

The series started well, with 15 boats competing this year but with only 9 making the American leg and oddly the American boat was not one of them...but three Russian boats were

Also this year the Russians decided to taking sailing seriously and there are 4 Russian teams and one Polish and that means that on Eastern Europe interest for sailing is growing fast. Not easy to find a budget for a full season with one of this babies with a full crew if there is not money around and a public interest in sailing.

On the Match racing (posted already the video) the winner was the British team Aqua with two Russian teams on the podium: Synergy and katusha.

On the First day of fleet racing the winner was another British team, Peninsula Petroleum followed by the Italians of Bombarda and the Russians of Synergy the only ones that have been on the two podiums.

Great racing and lots of close competition with different teams going to the lead:






RC Forty Four

Next match 23 - 27 April in cascais, Portugal. I hope to be there


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: VOR / SCA Racing*

So, you might remember that we were speculating about what the future might hold for Justine Mettraux, the phenomenal Swiss Mini 6.50 sailor who finished second in the Series class behind Aymeric Belloir.

Her sponsor, TeamWork, announced they would be launching an IMOCA 60 program for a future Vendée Globe, and there was some question whether Justine might be tapped for the skipper slot.

But now we see that she has been added to the Team SCA Volvo Ocean Race team! What a terrific and well-deserved opportunity. Not only will she gain tremendous experience, she will get to race alongside some of the best sailors in the world (male or female). No doubt she will have a very promising career ahead of her. 

Chapeau, Justine!

Volvo Ocean Race | SCA's all-female crew: meet the team


----------



## PCP

Could not agree more:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1292025-post5691.html

Meanwhile chapeau also to Lionel that managed to save his boat that seem to be in good shape after having been 10 days capsized (with him inside).

He only arrived to Brazil now and they say that his first words when he stepped "terra firma" was " *FINALLY*"

They are trying to repair the boat in time to "La route du Rhum"


----------



## PCP

*New top racer for America:Zing 3*

In this case South America, Brazil:









But I would say I am a bit surprised with the overall design. Sure the boat looks great and I am sure it will be fast but one thing is fast other is competitively fast and competitive in what kind of racing?

The choice of the NA cabinet does not say much since they are not specialists in any kind of racing, having a limited experience in what regards racing boats (Langan Design Partners). In fact they don't help also in what regards the design criteria and the type of racing the boat points to. They simply say about Zing 3:

*"Designed for a brazilian yachtsman Zing 3 is designed to go fast. An all carbon boat she boasts a canting keel, trim and ballast tanks, curved dagger-boards and a sparse interior."*

Length, hull	........16.75 m
Length waterline..16.72 m
Beam, maximum....4.80 m
Naval Architecture:.Langan Design Partners
Design:.................Langan Design Partners

It does not look like an IRC racer since the transom design does look like for maximizing RM at heeling, looking like the one of a solo racer but the beam is not the one of a solo racer (relatively narrow).

A racing boat not designed as a solo racer should imply a big B/D ratio and a boat designed to sail upwind with a lot of heel but the hull design seems not to be designed for that. Well, they don't give the ballast ratio and I am just judging by what is usual in the different types of offshore racing boats. The hull looks like a crossover between a TP52 (in what regards beam and overall shape) and a solo racer in what regards the use of chines to limit heeling and design transom. It is also the only race boat that I know off that has seats in front of the wheel, with back support and all

Maybe they will have discovered something new even if it seems odd to me given their background in top racing. Another odd thing is on a top racing boat is not having a winch pedestal and only winches. It is a solo boat?

Maybe our Brazilian and South American contributors can shed some light on the brief design of the boat: Sure it will be fast and given the naked interior it is a racer....but what type of racing the owner will do with it: Transats and Ocean racing? IRC racing? ORC Regattas?


----------



## PCP

*Another winch option*

Forget to mention a system that is used on some main market boats: There are no winches, or a single winch over the cabin and all the winches (four) are on the cockpit, two of them aft, near the wheels. That's the solution that has been increasingly used by Hanse and that offers more flexibility than two winches near the wheel and two over the cabin.

On the case all winches are on the cockpit it means that the rigging is done in a way that all maneuvers are made from there and even if the second pair of winches is not near the wheel they are certainly closer to than on the top of the cabin.

Also more flexibility because you can use the existent winches for more uses, being on the other case the ones over the cabin limited to reefing work or in some cases to move the traveler with strong winds since in most cases the front sail sheets are brought back.

Here the new Hanse 505 that has that system:


----------



## PCP

*Premier 45 : Boat test*

Yachting monthly boat test to the boat that was my WOW!!! boat of the 2013 Dusseldorf boat show.





Take into consideration that the tester is a conservative one even if competent (like the magazine) :


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Premier 45 : Boat test*



PCP said:


> Yachting monthly boat test to the boat that was my WOW!!! boat of the 2013 Dusseldorf boat show.
> 
> Take into consideration that the tester is a conservative one even if competent (like the magazine) :


You know, Chris (the tester) almost never smiles during these boat reviews, but at the end of this one he is smiling from ear to ear, sitting at the helm and driving along at good speed. It's clear, notwithstanding his typically restrained manner, that he really loves this boat.

And what's not to love? Truly a gorgeous design, albeit not for traditionalists. Only thing I would change, I think, is the navigation station arrangement - I really do prefer a more conventional dedicated chart table with forward-facing seating. I realize it forces you to give up some space in the cabin, but for longer offshore voyages I would be spending a lot of time there, I imagine.

Otherwise, I really like the design and it's definitely a performance-oriented performance cruiser.

MrP


----------



## bobperry

Beautiful boat but why the chamferred deck edge?


----------



## PCP

*Premier 45*

I would change some things on the interior regarding color schemes and I would add more light without changing the boat profile or basic looks.

The exterior is perfect with the exception of the toe-rail that is useful. A nice rounded carbon piece all around would be nice

But I would not mind to have it like it is

25º to the wind at 7K!!! WOW!!!!


----------



## MrPelicano

bobperry said:


> Beautiful boat but why the chamferred deck edge?


Bob - I think Chris (the YM tester) mentioned in the video something about the way the carbon deck is joined to the hull, then hand-sanded to give it that chamfer. Can't recall the exact details, but assume it's partly aesthetic and partly a function of the deck-hull join design.

Agree with Paulo that it needs a toe rail, speaking as a life-long bowman. On the other hand, if I owned such a boat I'd hire a professional bowman to go forward in inclement weather to deal with anything foredeck related.


----------



## bobperry

If it were to make joining the hull to deck eaier I would think a radius would be even better. Granted it's better than a hard corner but no corner would be better than two corners. I like the look.

I've raced boats with no rteo rail back in the day when that was legal. Hiking is comfy. It's not a problem most of the time but it creates problems when you are breaking down three speed winches for servicing. " Have you seen that round,,,,,,,?

But in that first photo of the 505 I think I see a low "bulwark" shadow line. I can't imagine you would be compliant with any modern safety rules with no toe rail or bulwark at all. At least from the mast foirward.


----------



## PCP

*RC 44, Virgin Gorda*

Beautiful scenery great racing. After day 2 the British from Peninsula Petroleum increased the advance, the Italians from Bombarda maintained second place but the Russian team Synergy is closer, at only 2 point.


----------



## PCP

*RM 890 : Better than what they hoped for:*



Photo taken from the last edition of Voile magazine: You can read a short boat test there (first impressions) but I would say that the boat sailed incredibly well for a performance cruiser with a great interior.

With more than 10k wind the RM makes 6K close to the wind. Opening the course the boat makes 7 and then 8K. With an asymmetric spy they went till 10K (on one occasion). The truth is that they did not exactly tell what was that bit more than 10k but I hope we can assume that it was not much more.

If the boat goes like that with medium wind I cannot wait for a test with stronger wind. It seems this one does not need much wind to plan.

As a negative point it is confirmed that the standing height is only for small to medium sized guys, with 1.79cm near the stairs and 1.69cm on the head...but this is a 29ft boat and in what regards me I prefer it like that than an ugly boat with more windage.

It seems Marc Lombard got it right one time more.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: RM 890 : Better than what they hopped for:*



PCP said:


> Photo taken from the last edition of Voile magazine. You can read the first impressions there but I would say that the boat sailed incredibly well for a performance cruiser with a great interior:
> 
> With more than 10k wind the RM makes 6K close to the wind. Opening the course the boat makes 7 and then 8K. With an asymmetric spy they went till 10K (on one occasion). The truth is that they did not exactly tell what was that bit more than 10k but I hope we can assume that it was not much.
> 
> If the boat goes like that with medium wind I cannot wait for a test with stronger wind. It seems this one does not need much wind to plan.
> 
> As a negative point it is confirmed that the standing height is only for small to medium sized guys, with 1.79cm near the stairs and 1.69cm on the head...but this is a 29ft boat and in what regards me I prefer it like that than an ugly boat with more windage.
> 
> It seems Marc Lombard got it right one time more.


How much more do you think the RM 850 will cost than the Elan 320? If they are close I would go with the RM. Otherwise, I will continue to lust after the Elan. I'm one of those small-to-medium sized guys you referred to (1.74m), so will only bump my head slightly in the head.


----------



## PCP

*RM 890 / Elan 320*



MrPelicano said:


> How much more do you think the RM 850 will cost than the Elan 320? If they are close I would go with the RM. Otherwise, I will continue to lust after the Elan. I'm one of those small-to-medium sized guys you referred to (1.74m), so will only bump my head slightly in the head.


I was going to say that the Elan 320 was not necessarily slower since it has a bigger boat (9.25 to 8.90m) but then I looked at the LWL and quite incredibly the RM has a bigger waterline ( 8.81m to 8.71m). It seems that slightly inverted bow is not there only for the looks

The RM is lighter ( 3200kg to 3690kg), beamier (3.42m to 3.22) and it carries upwind 1.5m2 less sail area than the Elan 320. I bet that downwind it can carry as much sail and probably more.

The hulls are very different being the one of the RM based on Open boats and the one from the Elan more traditional and adapted to IRC racing. The beam all pulled back on the Elan can be deceiving but in fact it is not particularly beamy, for instance an A31 has 3.23m of beam, almost the same as the Elan.

The keels are similar but on the more sportive version the Elan has 2.15m draft while the RM has only 1.90m, an advantage in what regards saving weight in ballast for the Elan. The Elan has a B/D ratio of 0.243, the RM has 0.302. The difference in draft is not even near to make for that difference in B/D ratio. So the RM will have not only a much bigger hull form stability as it will have more RM coming from the keel with the boat heeled, and that means a much stiffer and powerful boat....and the performance is there to show it.

Probably there will be some conditions and points of sail where the Elan 320 is faster but not downwind or on a beam reach...and regarding the other conditions and points of sail, the difference is not going to be much, if any.

The Elan will perform better in IRC being easier to sail to its handicap and on a transat race the RM will for sure be faster.

Regarding prices I can give you prices at the factory but they are not meaningful to a boat deliver in US.

The Elan 320 costs 77 990 euros, but you would have to join the performance pack. You can see the price of that and other extras here:

http://www.argolis-yacht.com/pdf/Pricelist_E320_08062013.pdf

The RM 890 costs 80 936 euros but probably you will not need all the extras that you need on the Elan to make it a faster boat. I don't believe the monokeel is more expensive than the twin keel and unless you want a carbon mast, it is all there, except electronic and other comfort type extras.

http://www.boats-caribbean.com/sites/www.bateaux-antilles.fr/files/attached/brochurerm890.pdf

NOUVEAU RM890 - Blog RM Yachts | Chantier Fora Marine

Regarding the RM they don't have dealers on the US. You would have to pick up one on the French Martinique. This is the dealer:

RM 890: RM Yachts RM 890 Sailing Monohull on Boats-Caribbean.com

And an interested one since it was the only place I could find more pictures of that test by Voile magazine, these ones:













Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Oceanis 48*

A funny video with a lady (Betsy) trying her brand new Beneteau Oceanis 48. I love her facial expressions, from pure delight to some fright I bet she was used to a smaller boat.

She shows very clearly the pleasure and delight we all feel with a brand new boat especially if we like the way it sails.

congratulations Betsy


----------



## robelz

About the Luffe:

Controls on the tiller are good
Steering is very precise, pointing is easy
More than 8kn under spi but hard to steer then - too much pressure on the tiller
A lot more space inside than in older Luffes
Nav station is higher than usual to use it while standing, too
High built quality at a good price (compared to other Scandinavians)


The rest of the time he only tells what he shows...


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> About the Luffe:
> 
> Controls on the tiller are good
> Steering is very precise, pointing is easy
> More than 8kn under spi but hard to steer then - too much pressure on the tiller
> A lot more space inside than in older Luffes
> Nav station is higher than usual to use it while standing, too
> High built quality at a good price (compared to other Scandinavians)
> 
> The rest of the time he only tells what he shows...


Thanks!

Odd that they mention nothing about the boat not having a traveler and how it sails without it. Maybe on the magazine they say something about that.

I am curious because Oluf is a great sailor and I it is hard for me to believe he would make a boat that could not be trimmed correctly. He had already used a boat with this type of main sail set up years ago on the 43DS.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Oceanis 48*



PCP said:


> A funny video with a lady (Betsy) trying her brand new Beneteau Oceanis 48. I love her facial expressions, from pure delight to some fright I bet she was used to a smaller boat.
> 
> She shows very clearly the pleasure and delight we all feel with a brand new boat especially if we like the way it sails.
> 
> congratulations Betsy


It's always a delight to see people enjoying their boats. At the same time, I found myself cringing a bit at the thought of Betsy trying to control her new boat without another one or two experienced sailors on board. It appeared to me that her skills are rather basic, and the absence of a traveler control at the helm station makes it very difficult to depower the main in puffs. You could see her instinctively start turning down in the puff, which only exacerbated the boat's heel, rather than feathering into the wind, as the dealer instructed her.

I hope she gets more instruction and keeps sailing the boat. All it takes is one close call or accident to discourage new sailors from going out. Then the boat sits lonely in its slip, while the owner pursues other interests. Sort of wish the dealer had pointed her to a smaller boat.


----------



## funjohnson

bjung said:


> Can we please stop the bobperry bashing?! His only infraction was disagreeing with the "Pope", the words "silly" and "stupid". Does it deserve to in return being called arrogant, rude, self-centered, etc. over and over and over? That to me is just, well...rude and silly!
> I really enjoy this thread, and the participation of Bob Perry is very welcome. It adds another view, a very competent one, from the only NA here. I sure hope he sticks around and keeps giving his candid opinion, even if opposing views are not acceptable here.


Agree totally.


----------



## MrPelicano

funjohnson said:


> Agree totally.


A little late to the dance, aren't we, FJ?

If you'd turned up a bit earlier you would have had the complete context of the exchange. Piling on after the fact just looks opportunistic and a tad obsequious.

Bjung doesn't accurately relate the exchange between Bob, Paulo and several others in the thread (including myself). And his claim that "opposing views are not acceptable here" is utterly false - indeed, it suggests that he hasn't spent much time in the Interesting Boats thread at all, though I know he's spent a fair amount (to what effect it's hard to say).

Anyway, peace has returned to the valley and Interesting Boats are once more the topic of everyone's conversation. Bob continues to make poignant contributions and Paulo continues to keep us all apprised of the latest developments in performance yacht design from around the world.

Looking forward to enjoying your salient contributions as well.

Regards,

MrP


----------



## PCP

*Re: Oceanis 48*



MrPelicano said:


> It's always a delight to see people enjoying their boats. At the same time, I found myself cringing a bit at the thought of Betsy trying to control her new boat without another one or two experienced sailors on board. It appeared to me that her skills are rather basic, and the absence of a traveler control at the helm station makes it very difficult to depower the main in puffs. You could see her instinctively start turning down in the puff, which only exacerbated the boat's heel, rather than feathering into the wind, as the dealer instructed her.
> 
> I hope she gets more instruction and keeps sailing the boat. All it takes is one close call or accident to discourage new sailors from going out. Then the boat sits lonely in its slip, while the owner pursues other interests. Sort of wish the dealer had pointed her to a smaller boat.


The boat needs reefing to have a more relaxed sailing. They were going well over 9K and that's a lot for a cruiser like that. The boys are having fun and impressing the lady. With a reef in the sails the boat would be making over 8K at a much smaller heel angle. That boat does not even like to be sailed that way.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

MrPelicano said:


> ...Paulo continues to keep us all apprised of the latest developments in performance yacht design from around the world....
> ...
> MrP


Not only me. On the last year there have been several other contributors that have been posting very interesting boats making this an even more interesting thread. I like that. Everybody is welcome to post interesting boats, meaning by interesting contemporary designs, what some call cutting edge.

Old shoes are nice too, at least for some, but for other threads. Several are dedicated to them.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*RC 44 Virgin Gorda*

surprising developments now that is only one day left to race:

The British from Peninsula Petroleum increased the lead but on the other podium places.... big changes. The British from team Aqua made an incredibly recovery on the 3rd day and are now second while the Russians from Synergy and the Italians from Bombarda have both the same number of points and are at only 4 from team Aqua.

Again great images:


----------



## PCP

*Wind*

Wind is what makes us move and to know more about it is always great. Just look at this Japanese project:






Want better? Go to your location and have a great view of what is happening. Unbelievably

earth wind map

and incredibly beautiful.


----------



## PCP

*Cameras: sailing movies*

Since we are talking about sailing related things I would like to share this great movie about the available cameras on the market: Image quality and price included. I want nice movies on this thread so better know what is the best and cheapest equipment to make them





Caméras embarquées : le comparatif - mai 2013 _por voile-magazine_


----------



## PCP

*Dolphins on the mini transat*

Back on boats jonas: Gerckens on the last mini transat had time to make this beautiful movie with Dolphins:


----------



## PCP

*What happened to Milan KOLACEK*

Number four on the mini Proto ranking in 2012, he was really eager for last year's transat that he never made:






With his famous boat, the "Follow me" a 2009 Sam Manuard design that he sailed to some victories and great results among them French solo Champion.

Document sans titre

The boat was first was first lent to Jeffrey MACFARLANE for the last transat and then sold to an almost unknown Romain Mouchel.

What happen to this great sailor, a Czech one?

I can find his face book page but I cannot read Czech. Someone can?:

https://www.facebook.com/milan.kolacek.39

It seems he is selling a book? but it says anything about his sailing projects?

It seems it is hard not to be a french to have a professional career as solo sailor. It happened the same to the Portuguese Francisco Lobato that disappeared without trace... well, this one is also a NA so maybe he is designing boats...with some luck.


----------



## PCP

*Downwind / upwind performance or Beamy versus Narrow hulls.*

It was already sometime ago, this race that preceded the Sydney-Hobart. At the time I posted some videos but this one is so much better and so curious:

We can see how Loyal and also the two top VOR pass on the downwind leg passing by Wild Oats. The difference in speed is awesome.

Of course upwind the two smaller VOR did not stand a a chance but it seems that Loyal was almost as fast (she blew a sail and got behind). Anyway Wild Oats goes upwind like a dart.

Not easy to have a right balance between upwind and downwind performance but I still think that in most circumstances Loyal has a better balance. With lighter winds Wild Oats is the master, no doubt about that.






SOLAS Big Boat Challenge 2013 from Greg Wilkins on Vimeo.


----------



## capt vimes

Heres a rather long video of the blown code 0 on loyal... I thought, it had an awkward shape just before it blew...


----------



## PCP

*Varianta 37: very nice!*

We had already talked about this boat that has a truly incredible price:



Yes and that price includes 19% German Vat and yes, it is a very nice hull. The Hanse 37 was a very fast boat with god results in club regattas. This one is even better, with the same hull lighter and with a better performance keel.

The boat was presented in Dusseldof and I was very curious to see the quality of finish and practical details. Some years ago the Varianta 44 was a deception: Yes an interesting boat but only suited for club racing with a bad galley, a bad finish and without a proper anchor and chain locker. They had reviewed the 44, it is better but again no accessible chain locker from the deck.

Well, the 37 was the opposite of a deception if we discount the optional settees (on the boat on the show) that are awful but the standard ones are "normal". The quality of the interior is surprisingly good for the price as the finish. The boat looks simple but clean and nice. I liked it. The only thing that is small for the size of the boat is the refrigerator but maybe they have an option for a bigger one.

The boat comes already with sails but not a furler and the sailing performance is amazingly good or maybe not since the 37 was fast and this one is lighter and the keel with less drag and wet surface. The boat was considerably faster with light winds than the new oceanis 38 and that is not a slow one.

For someone that has not the money to a "normal" cruiser this is a way of having a new boat for the price of an used one and the boat has the potential to be upgraded with time: Anchor winch, Furler and many other things can be added with time. I like the idea...I almost have the wish to have one


----------



## PCP

*Essence 33: A new look*

We already had a look at this wonderful classical daysailer that was nominated for this Year's European boat of the year contest.





A new look to bring to the attention two points. First the winch position that is one of those that we have discussed on a previous post and is one of the options in what regards modern rigging adapted to solo sailing. The solution is the one using 3 winches being one central and as the other boats that have used this solution this one does not have a traveler.

You can see it's use on this nice *movie* by Yacht.de:

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Essence-33%3A-Quintessenz-des-Daysailings/952e7bec064f9456d48d6545164b248f

The other point that I missed at the time is that is an André Hoeck design. André is best known by it's series of huge classical yachts with modern under bodies based on the Pilot cutter. Having a better look at this boat, well, it seems much like a miniature of one of his big yachts, keel and all. Take a look:















So if you have not the money to "play" with a big one, you can always have a "miniature" even if those are not cheap either. Truly beautiful boats.


----------



## PCP

*Grand surprise*

Didn't know that this very popular boat (in France) had made it to Australia. It its the small daysailer / weekender /racer from Archambault. Great movie






Geelong Festival of Sail from Greg Wilkins on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*Voyage boat : Tudulut the new 12m by Jean-Pierre Brouns*

Jean-Pierre Brouns has specialized in designing voyage boats made in Strongal, a type of thick aluminium that reunites the advantages of the steel in what regards easy building (without the need of too much internal framing) with the lightness of Aluminium. His designs are also very particular and I find this one interesting:

A 40ft voyage twin keel, narrow and with the ability to carry a dinghy of considerable dimensions on the garage. If it was for me I would have asked for a bit more ballast. This one seems adequate for a more beamier boat, but not having the power generated by the form stability of a more beamier hull, I would like to have more RM coming from the keel. I like stiff and powerful boats.

With the exception of that I kind of like it, with its ability to stand on its strong "legs" almost everywhere and its rustic but effective looks. This one has life lines the way Brent S. likes them and it is not also far from the concept he has of a voyage boat, but this one is more modern and certainly a faster sailboat. Kind of boat you would not find strange to meet in the Arctic or Antarctic waters.

The boat is designed to be built by a skilled amateur of by a small shipyard without the expensive machines needed to effectively and easily make rounded aluminium hulls, a hull that would not take many hours to assemble from previously cut parts.











Dimensions:

Hull lenght ------ 11.80m
LWL-------------11.50 
Beam------------3.49m 
Light weight------8500kg
weight Max load--10350kg
Ballast-----------2500kg
Draft-------------1.74m
Mainsail-----------37.8m2
Jib----------------37.2m2
Reacher-----------72.7m2


----------



## Faster

*Re: Essence 33: A new look*



PCP said:


> We already had a look at this wonderful classical daysailer that was nominated for this Year's European boat of the year contest.
> 
> 
> 
> So if you have not the money to "play" with a big one, you can always have a "miniature" even if those are not cheap either. Truly beautiful boats.


I've always liked that combination of classic look above the water and contemporary sleeper underbody.. and imagine the fun you'd have sailing by someone expecting a heavy old full keeler approaching! 

The Spirits yachts appeal similarly, though a local example did not display the speed one would expect. (could have been the crew)


----------



## bobperry

I spoke to that guy with the Spirit in your area. I guess it's the same guy. He was less than happy with the boat. He called me about a possible new boat. Do you know if he sold the Spirit? I have a friend who owns a Spirit in SF. He likes the boat but I get the impression that his wife does not. He just bought her a 65' schooner so she could be comfy. He bought David Crosby's boat MAYAN. It's a real beauty. He'll keep the Spirit for himself.


----------



## capt vimes

bobperry said:


> ... He just bought her a 65' schooner so she could be comfy...


I just knew it all the time, i was born the wrong sex...  

The superstructure of Tudulut looks really strange... Who wants to have a convex, almost vertical front of glass to the foredeck where green water might clash into it?
The curvature of this front is focusing the seawater, which weighs more than a metric ton by the cubic meter, to a small point where the accumulated force might crash the panes... I sometimes think, that some designers should do some basic physics lessons again... 
But what do i know on the other hand...


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> I spoke to that guy with the Spirit in your area. I guess it's the same guy. He was less than happy with the boat. He called me about a possible new boat. Do you know if he sold the Spirit? I have a friend who owns a Spirit in SF. He likes the boat but I get the impression that his wife does not. He just bought her a 65' schooner so she could be comfy. He bought David Crosby's boat MAYAN. It's a real beauty. He'll keep the Spirit for himself.


The boat's no longer in town so I assume that it's been sold. The owner at the time owned a successful organic market on Bowen Island. We sailed against her in a 'round Bowen race' and she did not impress, however any 'round an island' race is always a crapshoot.

I gather nothing came of the conversation about a new boat?


----------



## PCP

*Spirit and classic boats versus Pilot cuter classics.*



Faster said:


> ...
> The Spirits yachts appeal similarly, though a local example did not display the speed one would expect. (could have been the crew)


Pilot cuter classic boats compromise less the sailing performance regarding entirely contemporary hulls. The huge overhangs of a true classic looker like the Spirit give it a very small LWL regarding the length of the hull.

Look at this picture of a Spirit 100ft and look at the superior view. If you pay attention you will see that the water plan is marked over the interior: Ridiculously small for the size of the boat, by modern standards:





It is not marked on this Hoek designed 85ft but if you follow the lines you will see that comparatively the LWL is incomparably bigger regarding the hull length. This type of "model" is much less compromised regarding a modern hull, at least upwind.



The performance of the Spirit can only be compared with one of a boat with the same LWL and that means a much smaller boat. Downwind the boat will only go marginally faster than hull speed...and since the LWL is small, it will not be a match for a modern boat of the same size and even less if it is a fast one that will be able to go a bit over hull speed easily.

But someone that buys a Spirit thinking that he bought a fast boat or because wants to sail fast missed the boat all together. The Spirit is all about style and enjoying a certain kind of sailing that will not be fast by modern criteria but certainly will be very enjoyable.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> ...
> 
> The superstructure of Tudulut looks really strange... Who wants to have a convex, almost vertical front of glass to the foredeck where green water might clash into it?
> The curvature of this front is focusing the seawater, which weighs more than a metric ton by the cubic meter, to a small point where the accumulated force might crash the panes... I sometimes think, that some designers should do some basic physics lessons again...
> But what do i know on the other hand...


 You know that material can be made bullet proof and the ones used on boats on that position are incredibly though. It is more a question of height and the way it is sported. Do you really think that small height front of Plexiglas sported on aluminium will be dangerous?

I don't see a problem and the forces there would not be very different than the ones that will be experienced on this one:



Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Figaro II*

A nice way for having a good look at the hull






and since we are talking about Figaro, some great images from "La solitaire du Figaro"





Teaser _por lasolitairedufigaro_


----------



## capt vimes

PCP said:


> You know that material can be made bullet proof and the ones used on boats on that position are incredibly though. It is more a question of height and the way it is sported. Do you really think that small height front of Plexiglas sported on aluminium will be dangerous?
> ...


oh i know all that, but why should one do so, if you could just design it differently?
transparent aluminium anyone? 




this is btw quite the same stuff you have on your watches around your wrist... but we all knew that lieutenant commander montgomery scott gave away the recipe back in 1986... 

besides even if i have no doubts that the designers made their homework regarding impact resistance, it still is not an appealing design to me...


----------



## PCP

*Another sail test on the RM 890*



This one (by Voile et Voiliers) more than a simple contact it is a better one, more precise and informative regarding wind and sea conditions, performance and things that could be better.

The version tested was the one with twin keels and a single rudder, a deep one. Even so they say that in limit situations, with too much heel, the rudder has a tendency to "ventiler", that I would translate by losing grip. They say that it would be better a solution with twin keels and two rudders (like some others RM can have). Off course, it is not by chance that the shipyard chose that solution regarding cruising but because it allows (as you can see on the picture) a third support point for balancing the boat while beaching it. Not a strong one but one that can be important just to maintain the balance.

The boat on this configuration has a draft of 1.5m and is RCD classified as a class B boat. On the version with single keel (1.9m) and two rudders it is classified as a A boat.

Regarding things they did not like: A feeling a bit stiff on the tiller (single rudder), the galley storage not well thought and the standing height a bit limit...and that's all in a boat that they found proportionally lighter and faster than the other RM series. They also refereed a good finish and that in what regards sailing all is perfect: the position for steering the boat, the way all rigging is done regarding a solo sailor, with everything at easy reach.

They also refer a great storage on the cockpit, with a double central locker for the life raft and dinghy, a big lateral one for sails, outboard engine, boat defenses and also a big anchor locker.

Regarding performances they were a lot clearer and more complete than on a previous test I had already talked about.

with a sea almost with no waves they were surprised with a very good performance with light winds and I say surprised because on this type of very beamy hulls upwind performance in light winds is normally a weak point.

Main sail and genoa: 7K wind 5.1K speed at 50º off TRW.
Main sail and genoa: 9k wind 5.4K speed at 50º off TRW.
Main sail and genoa: 9k wind 6.7K speed at 70º off TRW.

Mainsail and Ass.Spi: 7k wind 6.0K speed at 90º off TRW.
Mainsail and Ass.Spi: 11k wind 8.4K speed at 100º off TRW.
Mainsail and Ass.Spi: 11k wind 7.3K speed at 140º off TRW.

As you can see the overall performance is very good for a cruiser with 9m. Going at almost 8.5K with only 11k wind is outstanding and already way over hull speed. From then on, with more wind I am quite sure the speed will increase rapidly and this baby will be able to do 2 figure speeds with strong winds, adequate sails and a good sailor at the tiller.

Even without nothing of that, just with an average sailor and only with genoa the boat is already making almost 7K with 9K winds. It is a pity they didn't refer the speed with 11k with only genoa but I would say that it would be around 7K or just a bit over. A very fast cruiser that can be even faster, specially upwind on the version with a single keel and deep draft.

The boat seems to sail so well that maybe they contemplate making a "RC" version with a really deep keel, something like 2.3m. That would save a considerable weight in ballast, would allow the boat to plane earlier and would improve even more the upwind potential making it a boat to make the transquadra. The hull seems to deserve it


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> oh i know all that, but why should one do so, if you could just design it differently?
> transparent aluminium anyone?
> Aluminium oxynitride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> this is btw quite the same stuff you have on your watches around your wrist... but we all knew that lieutenant commander montgomery scott gave away the recipe back in 1986...
> 
> besides even if i have no doubts that the designers made their homework regarding impact resistance, it still is not an appealing design to me...


That's more like it I would say that I agree with you that shape seems not to have any functional purpose even if I doubt that in what regards impact would be very different than a simple vertical one (maybe even better in all impact directions except a straight one). Anyway given the small height and the support an aluminium structure can give, not a problem in what regards functionality also.

That leaves us on the aesthetically field and there I would have to look better at it. Certainly unusual and even if I have no doubts that in what regards interior space and interior view it is not a good idea, a slightly curved form from the outside view can give an interesting outlook (but I would like to see it better). Personally I would not have traded a slightly more interesting exterior outlook (if it is the case) by a poor interior feeling...but it is just me. In what regards aesthetics we are on a much more subjective field.

Regarding transparent Aluminium I did not know about it. it seems hard and expensive to make and I did not saw curved surfaces but maybe in the future we could see an all aluminium boat, "windows" and all

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

PCP said:


> Regarding transparent Aluminium I did not know about it. it seems hard and expensive to make and I did not saw curved surfaces but maybe in the future we could see an all aluminium boat, "windows" and all...


20 k US$ for the m² with 2-5 mm thickness... 
and since it is essentially a ceramic (even if aluminium based) you can bake it in any form you like... i just use to call it "transparent aluminium" since i am an old treky...


----------



## Faster

I'm liking the look/concept of the RMs more and more.. looks like a fun boat to own and sail. 

I'm wondering if they are prone to pounding in a chop with those flat forward sections? Even more extreme than the flat sections on some IOR designs, which are known to pound quite badly...


----------



## knuterikt

Faster said:


> I'm liking the look/concept of the RMs more and more.. looks like a fun boat to own and sail.
> 
> I'm wondering if they are prone to pounding in a chop with those flat forward sections? Even more extreme than the flat sections on some IOR designs, which are known to pound quite badly...


I talked with one owner he said that "pounding in a chop is only a noticeable while motoring"
I understood that as soon as the boat heels over there is no problem with the flatness in the middle.
RM 1260


----------



## PCP

*FIPOFIX and Norbert Sedlacek*



capt vimes said:


> 20 k US$ for the m² with 2-5 mm thickness...
> and since it is essentially a ceramic (even if aluminium based) you can bake it in any form you like... i just use to call it "transparent aluminium" since i am an old treky...


Yes those kind of materials will have a huge use in the future. What makes them expensive now is the high technology needed to make them but I suspect that it will end in the future, not the technology needed but the costs involved in using it. We have already talked about Salonas using Carbon/Basalt bulkheads and also about Fipofix...and talking about that let's have some news about my preferred lunatic: Norbert Sedlacek on its tiny mini yellow racer made of fipofix (Vulcanic Carbon fiber):



Yes I think that he is mad but that does not mean that I do not have a huge respect for him his resilience and sailing skills, even a lot more now than some time ago.

Norbert is alone on an Atlantic Transat, on a particularly bad and stormy year and it looks that he had managed to make the worst part of the voyage, since he is now, after 33 days at sea, past the Canary Islands. He is not much worried because he says he has provisions for more 60 days.

In fact he is quite happy now that he is approaching the trade winds. If you think (like me) that all this is a bit mad let me say that he is without autopilot almost from the beginning and stays outside on the cold on a Dry-suit 19 to 20 hours a day. He says that eating, using the head or sleeping is a bit acrobatic or involves some sort of heaving...and I believe him

He deserves a big Chapeau for having reached here steering by hand on a minuscule boat on very adverse conditions and many chapeaus if he manages to reach St. Augustine / Florida. I hope that some of you are there to receive him. He is mad but what a feat and what a sailor

Open 16 FIPOFIX - Live Tracking

https://www.facebook.com/norbertsedlacek.at


----------



## PCP

*Rm 890*



knuterikt said:


> I talked with one owner he said that "pounding in a chop is only a noticeable while motoring"
> I understood that as soon as the boat heels over there is no problem with the flatness in the middle.
> RM 1260


This photo may help to explain that:



The bottom is in V but heeling upwind the boat will not be falling on the bottom but on the side and since, even if very beamy, has fine entries, as you can see by the deck form near the bow, on this photo....



the boat will not pound excessively. Besides, as Erick can explain here better than anybody, you don't sail these boat like I sail mine going upwind with less than 30º apparent wind but with a bigger angle because these boats, with their huge power, go much faster a bit more out of the wind and can compensate that way in VMG. In the end you take waves at a much better angle and that will also allow for less pounding than if you took then really hard on the wind.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## knuterikt

*Re: Rm 890*



PCP said:


> This photo may help to explain that:
> 
> The bottom is in V but heeling upwind the boat will not be falling on the bottom but on the side and since, even if very beamy, has fine entries, as you can see by the deck form near the bow, on this photo....
> 
> the boat will not pound excessively. Besides, as Erick can explain here better than anybody, you don't sail these boat like I sail mine going upwind with less than 30º apparent wind but with a bigger angle because these boats, with their huge power, go much faster a bit more out of the wind and can compensate that way in VMG. In the end you take waves at a much better angle and that will also allow for less pounding than if you took then really hard on the wind.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I was looking for a picture like that


----------



## PCP

*Alumarine 48*

A voyage aluminium cat it is not unheard but pretty unusual. Alumarine has one on the market designed by Pierre Delion. It has just hit the water.

I cannot say I like the Cabin, particularly its flat big "windows" and big lateral windage. I don't like also that frontal "door" or that living space ahead but in what regards hull design and rig design, I like it. Many of those details have to do with the first owner and the boat is easily transformable in something more interesting since the aluminium has that advantage: no molds, so easily modifiable.


----------



## PCP

*Sad Images*

and even so two impressive notes:

That wreck was maintained afloat by the system devised to make it unsinkable, even broken in two and pushed down by almost 4 T of ballast.

even in that state and battered for more than a week by a huge storm that keel maintains itself attached to the hull.

I hope they can found out what went wrong on that hull and if needed take preventive measures to make these boats even more seaworthy.


----------



## Edward3

Juan K and team has some explaining to do - first Rambler 100 (Speedboat) capsize in the Fastnet a couple years ago, Artemis AC72 breakup and death of Bart, now Cheminees IMCO 60 broken into a few bits???


----------



## PCP

Edward3 said:


> Juan K and team has some explaining to do - first Rambler 100 (Speedboat) capsize in the Fastnet a couple years ago, Artemis AC72 breakup and death of Bart, now Cheminees IMCO 60 broken into a few bits???


Or maybe that happens more to the ones that have many top racing boats. It happens more to him because he has more top offshore racing boats than anyone else. His boats dominated the two last VOR and did not broke.

Rambler lost the keel and capsized due to that. I can remember several top racing boats that lost canting keels. They are still learning about reliability on canting keels, mostly in what regards metal fatigue. Rambler was far from new when he lost the keel. Maybe some pieces should have been changed already. That kind of calculations regarding efforts on keels and even the building of the canting keels themselves as to do with engineers and it is a very specialized subject.

Cutting edge boats, even some cruising ones are today designed by a team. The NA is the leader of the team but he is there for the general concept and to keep the team on track. The design is a cooperative effort.

Regarding Artemis America's cup cat he was just one in a team. Those boats are designed by an even bigger number of specialists. If you want to blame somebody blame the engineer responsible for the boat structure and efforts calculation.

I am not saying that in what regard Cheminees Poujoulat there was not a problem with the design. I don't know. The boat was holed and repaired on the area where it broke. Let's see what they can find from the analysis of the wreck before putting blame on somebody.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Onne van der Wal*

I have been posting here about great marine photographers and film makers. The object of his work are boats and great images and we love boats and are most grateful to the ones that provide us with great images. I have no doubt that they love boats too.

Today we are going to talk about the Dutch Onne van der wall. Born in Holland, raised in the Dutch South African community and living in America on the last 30 years, in Newport.

No more talking since the images will talk by themselves:






Shooting on the water with Onne from Onne van der Wal on Vimeo.






Onne video show reel December 2013 from Onne van der Wal on Vimeo.


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Sad Images*



PCP said:


> That wreck was maintained afloat by the system devised to make it unsinkable, even broken in two and pushed down by almost 4 T of ballast...


it must have broken in at least 3 pieces...
there is the rather large middle part from the forward bulkhead to the keel and maststep area missing in your images...


----------



## robelz

The 10.80 is in the water:
JPK


----------



## PCP

*Re: Sad Images*



capt vimes said:


> it must have broken in at least 3 pieces...
> there is the rather large middle part from the forward bulkhead to the keel and maststep area missing in your images...


Yes you are right. There is a piece missing and that was the piece where the boat broke, I mean the junction of that piece with the main hull. The bow broke later under the action of a week of stormy weather.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*VX one*

This is one of the most interesting small boat racers coming on the American Market. The boat comes after the Viper 640 designed by Brian Bennett, much similar in design criteria to the 10 year old Open 5.70 and Open 7.50 by Finot. The objective is almost the same even if the boa has some differences, being the Finot boats more pointed to easiness and short crew racing, even solo with better offshore potential.

The relatively new VX one corresponds to the Open 5.0 and points to a more accessible and less expensive boat, an initiation boat but also a fast one.

The hull design proved to be a great one and there is a lot of noise about who is responsible for that hull that is many times incorrectly fully attributed to Bennett himself. Putting the record straight: *"The VX team includes lead design and concepts by Viper 640 designer, Brian Bennett, naval architecture and design engineering by Ross Weene and Rodger Martin"*

That of course if it makes clear that the lead was from Bennett (following a simplified Viper concept) does not say who actually designed that hull that is very different from the one from the Viper, a hull here chines have an important role.

The Ker type of transom and hull on the 640 with absence of chines allows the boat to sail with heel taking advantage of all hull surface giving a max RM at considerable heel, coming not only from hull form stability but from the 84kg of ballast and weight of the crew on the rail.





VIPER 640 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

On the VX one even if the boat has a not very different B/D ratio, for a similar keel, the hull is designed to provide max hull form stability at a much lower angle.





VX ONE-DESIGN sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

In fact very different approaches and while on the Viper that would provide a better upwind performance, on the VX one that approach should provide an easier and faster downwind performance.

The downwind performance potential is evident on these videos:











Brian Bennett says about the boat:

*"Designer Brian Bennett says the idea behind the VX One Design was to build the fastest possible sportboat &#8230;while delivering serious value for your money. If you're familiar with the Volvo Open 70 class, you'll recognize the similarities: a nearly plumb bow, carbon-fiber spars, chines that run from the transom to the bow section, a flat-top mainsail and a surfing-friendly undercarriage."*

Regarding the hull, if it has some similarities with the VOR ones it as also some differences in what regards chines and their use. In fact the chines on the VOR allows for a much bigger heel upwind before coming into action:





More like the ones on an Open 60 even if on the VX one they seem more extreme in what regards the heel angle where they become effective, with very little heel:



Anyway the boat seems to sail at least reasonably well upwind:






I would love to hear about sailors with experience sailing the VX one regarding upwind performance and if they have also experience in the Viper, about the comparative performance.


----------



## PCP

*Jpk 10.80*



robelz said:


> The 10.80 is in the water:
> JPK


WOW!!!!! What a difference regarding the Sunfast, I mean the cruising interior a Beautiful one. This one is not only a racer but also a performance cruiser.







Very nice hull. It seems very well balanced between upwind, downwind, crewed and solo sailing performance.
This one has a IRC keel. I bet they will change the keel for the Transquadra. That story about the keels is plain dumb. Can't they find a way to stop that in what regards rating? Why the hell have the boats to come with less efficient keels to have a better rating regarding performance?















That forward view from the interior does not seem odd. I confess I had some doubts about that, in what regards the interior and it seems functional too giving a forward view and that is very important for long range solo sailing.


----------



## MrPelicano

*Re: Jpk 10.80*



PCP said:


> That forward view from the interior does not seem odd. I confess I had some doubts about that, in what regards the interior and it seems functional too giving a forward view and that is very important for long range solo sailing.


Paulo -

That design also enables them to run the transverse jib track further inboard, making for a very tight sheeting angle upwind, something we've seen evolve in the TP52 class. The alternative would be to use a floating system, as the Minis and some other classes are doing, but that involves a few more control lines. And since this boat is using only non-overlapping headsails, it's probably a good decision.

As you mention, it's also nice to have the forward view from down below, if only for checking jib / spi trim.

Truly a gorgeous boat and I love the interior. This one is going to win some races, without doubt.


----------



## Edward3

WOW!!! the JPK 1080 looks great-very similar to there 38FC, great cockpit with center tiller steering, traveler in back of boat, view of the outside world from down below...
It has every thing and more compared to the Sunfast 3600 and Pogo 30.
Gotta do something with that keel.


----------



## EricKLYC

*Re: Rm 890*



PCP said:


> ... you don't sail these boat like I sail mine going upwind with less than 30º apparent wind but with a bigger angle because these boats, with their huge power, go much faster a bit more out of the wind and can compensate that way in VMG. In the end you take waves at a much better angle and that will also allow for less pounding than if you took then really hard on the wind.


I fully agree. Also for the Pogo 12.50, less pointing results in an equal upwind VMG but most importantly in a much more comfortable behaviour.

Best regards,

Eric


----------



## PCP

*Onne van der Wal*

Some more videos: Pure beauty






The J's race at the 2013 St. Barths Bucket. from Onne van der Wal on Vimeo.






The J Class Regatta in Newport, RI. Summer 2011. from Onne van der Wal on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*Extreme sailing series: Match 1 Singapore*

They are back, better then ever, 12 boats full of great sailors and some super stars: The British Ben Ainsley, the French Franck Cammas and the Kiwi Dean Barker among several Olympic Gold medalists will give an idea of the really top sailing level:






The races started and are going on in Singapore. By now the standing after 12 races are:

First the Swiss from Alinghi followed by Dean Barker and Emirates team NZ then Realstone another Swiss boat, Ben Ainsley and the British from JP Morgan team, and in 5th Franck Cammas and the French from Groupama. Alinghi leads with a comfortable advantage but the the 4 that follow are really very close in points.

If you want to follow one from there start looking after minute 39. That's were the interesting stuff is


----------



## PCP

*RM 1260: Maiden voyage on a new boat*

Nice video for several reasons: a Rm 1260 chasing a Jeanneau 409 (also a fast boat). We can see that the Jeanneau is marginally slower and sails with more heel with gusts having more effect on stability while the RM is rock solid and could probably take more sail.

On autopilot the RM would have no trouble in keeping the course on these conditions while on the Jeanneau they would probably have to take some sail down. The Jeanneau is much more closer to the limit than the RM.

Also interesting in what regards to show the visibility from the interior to the outside: nice in what regards looking at the scenery but very useful to be inside with bad or disagreeable weather keeping an eye on the sails and on the horizon.






also interesting this comment by the owner and sailor:...*"you do not hear the hull/rigging making any noise."*


----------



## PCP

*Pogo 10.50: Maiden voyage*

And since we are talking about maiden voyages look at these old salts (the owner and some friends) sailing home, to Norway, a brand new Pogo 10.50 from France by the Irish Sea, the Caledonian Canal, and crossing the North-Sea from Inverness to Kristiansand.

*"1400 nautical miles on 13 days. Lot's of surfing. Max speed: 21 knots in a surf outside Lindesnes, Norway."*






Decidedly the Pogo as a cruising boat is not a "French" mania anymore neither it is a boat only for athletes or young sailors. They seem to having a great time and lots of sailing fun


----------



## PCP

*Rm 1360*

We have talked a lot about the RM 890 but not much about the big brother that is also a very recent boat, the 1360, a blue water passagemaker and a voyage boat, a fast one.

The boat was tested recently by Yacht.de and for what I can tell they were impressed. If someone is really interested on the boat the test is available in PDF on line (in German) and their tests are among the best.

A new look: We stay with the pictures a movie in English with a strong French accent  and another short one that shows how easy and comfortably the boat goes at a fast cruising speed.


----------



## PCP

*Extreme series: Today's most impressive images*






Alinghy dominated and leads. The boat that was hit violently (Realstone) will come probably in second since it was not their fault and the points will be redressed according with their previous average performance that was a great one. They are repairing that big hole during the night.

Impressive: Two Swiss boats on the lead...and they only have lakes


----------



## robelz

*Re: RM 1260: Maiden voyage on a new boat*



PCP said:


> also interesting this comment by the owner and sailor:...*"you do not hear the hull/rigging making any noise."*


But the very best is listening to KRAFTWERK inside while the wife is at the helm...


----------



## aeventyr60

An intrepid voyager on a small steel boat from Australia.


----------



## PCP

aeventyr60 said:


> An intrepid voyager on a small steel boat from Australia.


The hull seems nice (what I can see) but I don't understand the steel mast neither the use of steel on the hull and much less on the cabin for such a small sailboat. The rig seems also unusual (junk rig?) and smallish for the weight of the boat. It seems to have a small extension at the bow for a downwind sail but on a boat with that weight I would have expected a big spy or reacher pole, like on some traditional heavy traditional boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 31 and Dufour 310 GL*

I have been waiting to find pictures of the new 310GL, particularly from the hull, that is a very nice one, but I can't find anything. That's odd because the boat was presented at the Paris boat show and then in Dusseldorf where I visited the boat (and where impressed). It is also selling very well but when I search for Images of Dufour 310 I am overwhelmed with images of the older model and there is a reason for it. The Dufour 31 was one of the greatest designs ever and one that contributed very strongly for the growing of Dufour as a brand.

So, contrary to what is usual I will indulge a bit on boat history and I will look at an old hull before looking to the new one.

The design of the 31 is from Michel Dufour and appeared following the one of a very modern boat for its time, the Arpege (30ft -1966) from the same designer (1500 boats built in 10 years):

ARPEGE 30 (DUFOUR) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

The 31 (400 boats built in 6 years):

DUFOUR 31 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com







This is a *41* year's old design. I bet that at the time it would have looked incredibly modern and I would say fragile to many since the boat only weighted 4355kg and from those 1677kg were ballast in a boat that had an unusually big draft (at the time) for a 31ft boat: 1.73m

The hull should also have appeared very beamy to many and the transom huge (compared with the Arpege - 1st image), as huge and beamy the new 31 GL will look now to many now







To be fair to Michel Dufour there is a much bigger time lapse between the Dufour 31 and the 31Gl than between the 30ft Arpege and the 310GL ( 7 years compared with 40) so in fact the evolution from the Arpege to the 31 is bigger if we take time into consideration.

The beam of the three modes were: 3.02m, 3.20m, 3.31m

The weight: 3493kg, 4355kg, 9940kg

Ballast: 1383kg, 1677kg, 1300kg

The deep draft: 1.40m, 1,73m, 1.90m

The LWL: 6.71m, 7.01m, 8.70m

The sail Area upwind: 35.52m2, 36.74m2, 50.3m2

The much smaller ballast of the new boat shows the importance of draft and of a modern bulbed or torpedo keel in what regards diminishing the weight of needed ballast.

The huge difference in LWL shows the hull evolution on this determinant factor for boat performance and the differences in sail area are proportional to the overall stability and RM of the boats and shows the importance of today's hulls in what regards the contribution of form stability to the overall stability. The increase in weight is somewhat proportional to the increase to the boat hull area and boat volume.

I like very much the Felci designed hull of the 310Gl but only time will tell if it will be as successful as the other two. I doubt since today boat evolution is much faster and the boats become obsolete much faster.

The new 310GL has also a great interior, an amazing one in comfort, interior space and functionality for a 31ft boat:







Don't miss the *virtual visit *to the interior:

310 - Grand Large - DUFOUR Yachts


----------



## bobperry

No, the transom on the 31 would not have looked huge at all. This boat was designed to be measured under the IOR as was typical of the time. Most mom and pop boats of that day were designed with many IOR influences even if not intended as race boats. This Dufour is a good exmple. Part of that IOR influence was a very small transom in order to control the AGS and AIGS, girth stations aft. These small transoms are a dead give away that this boat is heavily IOR infuenced. You can see the same influences on the Arpege 30 designed in the tail end of the RORC rule. RORC also encouraged a narrow transom as it too used girth stations to detemnine "L". The IOR adopted the RORC girth station method of determining "L". That lead to a whole era of boats with pinched ends. I had the fun of doing some long distance races on an Arpege 30 many years ago. It was a slow boat in light air and had a small rig to allow it, I think, to rate half ton class. Good little boat and popular but boring to sail.

You could propbably attribute the reverse curve , concavity, in the bow profile also to the rule. This concavity would have squeezed the FGS and FIGS, flor ward girth stations, together to help reduuce "L" or measured lenghth.


I think it is best to discuss hull shapes from the 70's with some idea of how they were influenced by the IOR. Just like today, even if the boat is not intended as a racer everyone wants to think their boat looks like a racer.


----------



## PCP

*Main market production hulls are not influenced by rating rules anymore.*



bobperry said:


> No, the transom on the 31 would not have looked huge at all. This boat was designed to be measured under the IOR as was typical of the time. Most mom and pop boats of that day were designed with many IOR influences even if not intended as race boats. This Dufour is a good exmple. Part of that IOR influence was a very small transom in order to control the AGS and AIGS, girth stations aft. These small transoms are a dead give away that this boat is heavily IOR infuenced. You can see the same influences on the Arpege 30 designed in the tail end of the RORC rule. RORC also encouraged a narrow transom as it too used girth stations to detemnine "L". The IOR adopted the RORC girth station method of determining "L". That lead to a whole era of boats with pinched ends. I had the fun of doing some long distance races on an Arpege 30 many years ago. It was a slow boat in light air and had a small rig to allow it, I think, to rate half ton class. Good little boat and popular but boring to sail.
> 
> You could propbably attribute the reverse curve , concavity, in the bow profile also to the rule. This concavity would have squeezed the FGS and FIGS, flor ward girth stations, together to help reduuce "L" or measured lenghth.
> 
> I think it is best to discuss hull shapes from the 70's with some idea of how they were influenced by the IOR. Just like today, even if the boat is not intended as a racer everyone wants to think their boat looks like a racer.


Yes of course everybody knows that racing has a lot of influence in what regards hull shape and the way boats are rated also but the point regards racing boats is to make faster boats and even if sometime rating rules become obsolete and limit boat development in what regards speed potential it is also true that they have been changing accompanying boat evolution and allowing for better and faster boats.

The Dufour Arpege is much slower than the Dufour 31 and the Dufour 31GL is much faster than the 31. That has not to do with the way boats are rated but with hull evolution and absolute boat performance.

Today (happily) in what regards main cruising boat evolution the boats are no more designed to rate well under any system but designed to perform as well and comfortably as possible, offering a good interior space. In fact the Dufour GL will rate badly under IRC or ORC.

That is due to the change on offer regarding the type of boats that is much bigger today. The chances of a buyer of a Dufour 31 GL to indulge in some racing besides cruising are so slim that they are not taken into consideration in what regards hull design anymore. A owner interested in doing that will buy a Dufour from the performance series, an Elan, a Salona or a First.

This was not the reality in Europe 40 years ago were the choice of boats were much more limited and a boat like the Arpege or the Dufour 31 would be used for both things. I believe that is a bit what still happens in the US regarding club racing but not what happens here anymore.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

"Yes of course everybody knows that racing has a lot of influence in what regards hull shape and ratings "

Not sure that "everyone knows" Paulo but I get your snide point.
My comments were never intended as an "argument" but simply my way of filling in some gaps in your history of the early boats.

No discussion of hull shapes from that era is complete without mention of rule influences. And your comment that the 31's transom would have looked "huge" is not correct. If anything, at that time we watched in wonder as transoms just got smaller and smaller.
This has zero to do with what anyone does with these boats today. But it has a lot to do with where the original design ideas came from so any accurate history of the models is incomplete without mention of the prevailing rule. The shapes make no sense without it. That's just reality.


----------



## PCP

*Half ton class winners as boring boats to sail and their designers:*



bobperry said:


> ... Arpege 30 .. I had the fun of doing some long distance races on an Arpege 30 many years ago. It was a slow boat in light air and had a small rig to allow it, I think, to rate half ton class. Good little boat and popular but boring to sail....


Your notion of popular and boring is curious

The Arpege won the 1967 half ton cup and made 6th in 1970, 8th in 1971 and won many top races. The boat contrary to most of the other top half toners was not only a good racer but also a great cruising boat with lot's of interior space for the time. There are very few sailboats that have sold 1500 boats of the same model and that means that this was a truly great dual boat.

Calling boring to sail to a boat that had won on his time the most prestigious racing world trophy for that size of boats, it is an interesting opinion. Maybe you find your Baba 30, designed 10 years later and still with a full keel a more amusing boat to sail. Everybody has is tastes in what regards sailboats. No wrong or right here.

BABA 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

The half ton cup was to sailboat development, between the late 60's and the 80's, what the mini racer class is today for revealing the talent of young designers that later become some of the better worldwide NA, many of them still major names today in what regards boat design and innovation. All cutting edge designers then and amazingly, some still remain cutting edge designers today contributing actively for the development of sailboat design.

Just have a look at the names that were involved on the development of those boats:

Michel Dufour, Philippe Harlé, Peter Norlin, André Mauric, *Finot*, Sparkman and Stephens, Van De Statd, *Philippe Briand*, *Michel Joubert*, *Doug Peterson*, *Ron Holland*, *Bruce Farr*, *Joubert-Nivelt*, Jean Berret, Daniel Andrieu, *Tony Castro*, *Ed Dubois*, Jacques Fauroux, *Rob Humphreys*, Georg Nissen, Stephen Jones, Håkan Södergren, *Judel & Vrolijk*, *Hugh Welbourne*, Vallicelli, *German Frers*, *Ceccarelli*.

Some other opinions and facts about the Dufour Arpege:

*The Arpege was, in my view, anyway, the first really modern GRP production yacht. I saw one for the first time at the 1969 Boat Show and was amazed at the genius of the design. It provided very spacious, light and well-ventilated accommodation, a huge navigatorium, six proper berths with none crammed into the forepeak, a comfortable cockpit and a nice clean deck without angles or sharp corners.....

The Arpege was a noted performer, too. I am sure it won the Round The Island Race at its first attempt - John Oakley at the helm, I think, and went on to win offshore and inshore races all over the world. In any kind of weather the boat was so well balanced it steered with a light touch on a tiller so short and fragile-looking that it seemed to belong to another much smaller boat.

Many Arpeges have made long ocean voyages, too.*

1001 Boats: Dufour Arpege

*Michel Dufour's innovative design was little short of revolutionary back in 1966, with its intricate interior mouldings and brilliant detailing. Today, though, she appears more idiosyncratic than brilliant, although those who have sailed her say she is perfect for fast offshore cruising. She was a huge success (over 400 a year being built at one time) and set Dufour on the road to becoming one of Europe's biggest boatbuilders...

Her interior pioneered the use of internal mouldings, with slots to locate bulkheads and foam sandwich for the decks. Beamy and shallow bodied with a high-aspect rig, she performed well on the racing circuit....

Although not to everyone's taste, the interior works well, particularly offshore. There were several variants, the most significant of which were an extended counter and a deeper fin. Both are desirable ...
*
Read more at Dufour Arpège boat review | Yacht reviews | Yachting Monthly

*In 1965, Michel Dufour introduced the leading-edge Arpege, a 30-foot racer/cruiser that combined cruising elements with a winning race pedigree and would serve as the basis of what is today Dufour Yachts.*

BLUE WATER SAILING

*The Arpege was designed by Michael Dufour in 1966 as the first of his volume production boats. It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing. However, it was also a spacious boat, with a very broad beam for its time, as a review in 1966 commented "it is astonishing how much space below the increase in beam makes." *

Arpege
*...
Down below
Michel Dufour was quite innovative when it came to interior layouts, and the Arpege was no exception. Instead of squeezing in a double berth forward, the small forepeak was dedicated to sail and other storage. A private athwartships head is aft of the forepeak. The saloon features opposite facing settees with pilot berths above. I like this arrangement. When coupled with a lee cloth, pilot berths are excellent sea berths located out of the traffic flow. I always commandeer a pilot berth if it's available.

The Arpege has an impressive galley for a 1960s-era 30-footer. Opposite the galley is the nav station, again an unusual feature in an older small boat, and the nav desk is large enough to work comfortably. The galley and the nav station can be closed off from the saloon for added privacy. There are quarter berths port and starboard, and if you can resist filling them up with gear, they make great sea berths. There is adequate storage below the settees and, of course, excellent storage in the forepeak. The table is designed to be stowed away and can also be used as a cockpit table. The finish work is really quite nice, trimmed in mahogany. There's even a built-in wine rack....

Under way
Two of the owners that I managed to communicate with in France explained that they sailed all over the Bay of Biscay every year and that the Arpege is really at its best in heavy weather. The chap I spoke with in Oakland, who has sailed his Arpege extensively offshore, confirmed this notion.

Mike Addelman owns a 1973 model that he sails on Biscayne Bay in Miami. When asked about the boat's performance parameters, Addelman told me via e-mail that he is surprised how well the Arpege points and not surprised that it tracks well too. While it doesn't accelerate like a modern boat, it doesn't slow down easily either. He noted that several years ago, he finished third in class in the Columbus Day Regatta despite a weekend of very light wind. ...*

Dufour Arpege 30






It seems to me and to many like a very innovative boat for his time, a great cruiser that could also win races and top ones too. A great design that was also a great success among sailors with about 1500 boats made. Describing it as a a "was a slow boat in light air ..but boring to sail" seems not go with the overall picture.

Some photos of the hull:

Dufour Arpege archive data - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

Just look at this keel on an almost *50 year old* mass produced main market cruiser:



Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Extreme sailing series, Singapore: Another big crash*






I don't know who has the idea of putting those boats racing in such a tight place but it was not a bright idea

These boast have huge accelerations and are very large. During those accelerations it is not easy to control the boat and the rudder alone is not enough to change direction. Treating the needs in space for these boats to race as if they were monohulls is plain crazy and the results are there. Besides it is dangerous. I don't believe the teams are very pleased with the race management.


----------



## Faster

Anybody hurt in that, Paulo?? Amazing if not..


----------



## PCP

*Extreme series accident:*

Yes they were very lucky, just a Grupama sailor with minor injuries. All the other where blindingly fast jumping on the water:

*" Approaching the finish line, Groupama gybed onto starboard tack to respect the priority she was obliged to give her rival. Unfortunately Aberdeen went out of control in a violent gust and slammed into Groupama, which was powerless to avoid it.

Aberdeen's windward float, hydroplaning wildly, broke Groupama's mast after knocking Tanguy Cariou over, slightly damaging his head in the process, whilst three of the other four crew jumped into the water to avoid injury.

Questioned about the incident on his return to shore, the skipper of Groupama explained*: *"'I had absolutely no idea it was coming, other than a shadow. We'd just finished our gybe and were powering along towards the finish line when it happened.

Nick Moloney regretted the incident, but wasn't able to bear away (alter his course) due to his gennaker, which was flapping in a strong gust of wind. His windward float was very high and it hit our mast, which subsequently snapped in half with the impact.

Together with Sophie (de Turckheim) and Thierry (Fouchier), we jumped overboard to avoid being injured. Tanguy Cariou, who was in the middle of the boat, on the net, took a body blow from the incoming boat and got knocked on the head. He went to hospital but fortunately it wasn't anything serious. As for Devan Le Bihan, he was unhurt.' "*

*It now remains to be seen if Tanguy Cariou will be able to take up his post as tactician: **'I'm back from hospital. They gave me a few stitches above the eye, but my back's killing me, my right shoulder is a mess and I really took quite a knock. At the present time, I find it hard to envisage returning to my post aboard the boat tomorrow. Franck and I will discuss the matter,'* *he explained*.

Sail-World.com : Extreme Sailing Series - Groupama takes a hit, but won't back down

It is a pity. They had finished the last race (today) in 2nd and were going up on the classification. Cammas says he can repair the boat for tomorrow but I don't know if that injured guy is in conditions to race tomorrow.

and it seems that it is not only me that thinks that racing should not be done there, in such a tight space:

*A spectacular pile-up between two boats at the Extreme Sailing Series in Singapore has prompted crews to seek reassurances from organisers that conditions in Marina Bay are safe for racing.*

*"We could feel the conditions getting fruity and we were massively relieved to have got through the finish line," said Leigh McMillan, skipper of The Wave, Muscat, the race winners.
"The wind was coming in so fast and there was this bottleneck with nowhere for the boats to go. When the gusts hit, you lose control and there is nothing you can do. We were extremely concerned and were waiting to hear that everyone was safe.
"Ideally we would be in slightly less risky conditions," ..
"There have been plenty of close moments when things could have gone horribly wrong and there has to be some consideration for the safety of the crews and make sure the organisers are not forcing us into dangerous situations."*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-Extreme-Sailing-raises-safety-questions.html
...

This was Yesterday, another crash:


----------



## bobperry

Nice history lesson Paulo. I knew most of it.

The difference is that I have actually sailed the Arpege, many miles while, you have only read about it.

Yes, at one time it was a "rocket" and a race winner. It was a great little boat and very succesful. (Haven't I said this already?) I did mention it rated at Half Ton class level. But by 1974 it was no longer a rocket. It was out designed. That happens. It had a very short rig and in light air it was a very BORING boat to sail. You can change "boring" to "slow" if that suits you better. In the prestigious Chicago-Macinac race we eventually dropped out at Frankfurt due to consustant very light air. We spent a day and a half getting that far. We were very good sailors, four of us were paid to sail that race, so I know it was not us. But in the light stuff that boat was hard to make go. It needed a bigger rig. Compared to Peter Norlin's SCAMPI of the same era, another boat with a short rig, the Arpege was not competitive by 1974. Times change. Expectations of performance change.


----------



## PCP

*Extreme series collision:*

From another angle:






I have tried to find the movies of today races but all I kind find is movies with the collision


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## PCP

*Pretty incredible racing video*

It has already some months but I never has saw it. If I had I would remember and I bet the guys on that boat will never forget this stunt I had a good laugh LOL


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## bobperry

The internet is so much fun!

Where are they sailing in that cat collision video? I'd like to see a vid shot from a helicpoter.


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> .. I did mention it rated at Half Ton class level. But by 1974 it was no longer a rocket. It was out designed. That happens. It had a very short rig and in light air it was a very BORING boat to sail. You can change "boring" to "slow" if that suits you better. ... Compared to Peter Norlin's SCAMPI of the same era, another boat with a short rig, the Arpege was not competitive by 1974. Times change. Expectations of performance change.


I don't know if you noticed but that was the point of that post: Design evolution, changes in hulls and increased performance. Obviously when I was saying that the Arpege was a great design, or fast, I was referring to the time he was designed, back in 1966, not now, not 8 years later. In 1974 the Arpege had already been substituted in the Dufour line by the 31, a faster boat. It was obviously outdated back in 1974 and that's why it had been already substituted by the 31, a very different hull.

The point of that post was tho show the evolution of the hulls and the increase in performance associated with it since 1966 to our days: The new beamy Dufour 31GL has a much better overall performance than the almost 50 year old narrow designed (but beamy for the time) Arpege.

The Arpege was regarding its time a much faster boat than the Dufour 31GL is today. The Arpege was a top race winner, while the 31GL, while much faster on overall performance, today has not the potential to win any major race neither would be considered a performance cruiser, like it was the Arpege back in 1966.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Paulo:
Your initial post on the Arpege makes no mention at all of it's racing record or the fact that it was a RORC design. This is an important part of the history of that boat. It was very successful under that rule and the design is heavily influenced by that rule. I just filled in the gaps in your "history". In that initial post you also mention that the stern would have looked "huge" your word. That is incorrect. In fact just the opposite. It was a time when sterns were getting very smaller and smaller. I was simply trying to add some clarification and accuracy.

But my last post was purely to address you confusion and questioning my use of the word "boring". You did ask that question. I explained that by 1974 the Arpege was very dated in terms of performance. In short, it was slow and not a lot of fun to race. That's all there is to it.

I'm happy to add clarification and accuracy and time I can. I enjoy doing it.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Your initial post on the Arpege makes no mention at all of it's racing record or the fact that it was a RORC design. This is an important part of the history of that boat. It was very successful under that rule and the design is heavily influenced by that rule. ...


Bob, contrary to what you think the Arpege was not a racing boat, it was not designed with with racing in mind but with cruising and that's why it had a hull less influenced by IOR than the Norlin, a 1970 design.

1966 Arpege:



1970 Scampi:



It was a mass production main market cruiser that sold 1500 boats in some few years. No race boat sells like that. If you think it was slow for the time try to compare it with the cruising boats that in 1966 sold more boats in the US. Compare it with what is comparable. I am quite sure that you will have to agree that was a very fast cruising boat for the time and anything but boring under a cruising perspective.

The fact that they have found out that cruising boat was fast and could win on the Half ton cup has an incident not something that was intended from the beginning.

Off course, all cruising boats (or almost all) have hulls influenced by racing boats since these represent the state of the art in what regards performance and they are also influence by the rating rules that are there not to influence design but to rate with fairness sailing boats. At some time they all create distortions but then they are changed to allow faster and more modern boats to be competitive. In the meantime they have influence on how the sailboats are designed...well not anymore in what regards main cruising boats since they have followed open boats that are not designed to a rating.

I have been discussing at length that on this thread regarding ORC and IRC rating and the way they are evolving and everybody that follows this thread knows that and the influence they have on boats designed to compete specifically under those rules.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Not sure if this is "intreresting" enough for this thread but I thought you might like to see how the design process works at this level. During a recent trip to the yard a change was made in the galley that impacted our forward companionway ladder. This boat is 63' and has two companionways. So we have redesigned the forward companionway hatch into "scuttle" type profile hatch and we are now playing with curved companionway ladder. The scuttle type hatch was popular on boats of the 1930's thru the 1950's and used by S&S on several of their boats. It fits with our classic American look on this design.


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## bobperry

The fact that the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup proves, to at least it's crew, that it was a racing boat. if it were not a race boat I sincerely doubt it would have entered the half Ton Cup series.


If you look at the competition for the 1966 Half Ton Cup you will see that the Arpege with it's fin keel and separate rudder was almost "radical" for it's time. In those days many boats still had full keels.

The Arpege had more beam than a Scampi because it was designed to a totally different rule at a totally different time. The boats have almost nothing in common. The Scampi is an IOR design, Arpege RORC. Two different rules that produced different boats. The Scampi even has a chine!

"and everybody that follows this thread knows that and the influence they have on boats designed to compete specifically under those rules."

Well, you'll just have to excuse me Paulo. I don't believe that "everybody" knows anything. I believe some people do and some don't. And when I see misinformation posted or a history posted with gaping holes in it I will continue to speak up and do my best to correct the situation. I feel very confident doing this.


----------



## PCP

*Philippe Briand last boats: Inoui and Bristolian II*

I don't think there are many chances of the next First 50 to be designed by Philippe Briand but since he had designed the last one (as well as the 45) I went to his site to see if there was any news about it. There was not but since I was there I took the occasion to have a look on his last sailingboats.

Philippe Briand was one of those NA that participated actively (and with success) on the Half Ton cup battle that was not only a battle on the water but also a design battle. His tastes for performance and how to get it come from there and was completed by a refined aesthetically view on design. His boats are always very elegant.

It was with some surprise that I found out that his last one (2013) was not as elegant as the last ones. Don't make mistakes, it is a beautiful boat but there are some things that don't add, like the color of the boat and the superstructure, the slightly outdated look (for Briand) and then I saw what the owner wanted:

*"This design is based on the requirements of her owner, who wanted a high performance yet 'timeless' sailboat."*

Well, timeless for many means just not looking too contemporary and in what regards colors...well it seems to me the owner had a big say on that. Just look at the interior. I bet the designer made the possible to accommodate the "tastes" of the owner giving them quality...but even so...

The 108ft Inoui



It goes "well" with the outside green.





Anyway this is a very interesting boat with a lifting keel and an all carbon one. More and more top performance cruising boats, even production ones are opting for Carbon as material, when costs are not to be the main concern.

But in what regards aesthetics just compare it with the 5 year's older Bristolian:















Too contemporary for the Inoui owner? It seems so. Bristolian is also an all carbon boat with a lifting keel, just about 3m bigger than Inoui.

What a yacht


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> The fact that the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup proves, to at least it's crew, that it was a racing boat. if it were not a race boat I sincerely doubt it would have entered the half Ton Cup series.
> 
> If you look at the competition for the 1966 Half Ton Cup you will see that the Arpege with it's fin keel and separate rudder was almost "radical" for it's time. In those days many boats still had full keels.
> 
> ... And when I see misinformation posted or a history posted with gaping holes in it I will continue to speak up and do my best to correct the situation. I feel very confident doing this.


Sure Bob. Yes then like now there was cutting edge designers that had already leaved the full keel behind and others that decades after that still designed cruising boats with full keels.



Regarding the Arpege you don't know what you are talking about (regarding being a race boat). Translated from the French:
*
"L'Arpege released in 1967, quickly became the emblem of the Dufour brand, allowing it to become the first French and European manufacturer. ..

L'Arpege is a coastal cruising sloop designed by the naval architect Michel Dufour (founder of the company Dufour Yachts in 1964), and built between 1967 and 1976 in the yards in the same name as its creator, in La Rochelle (Charente -Maritime)."*

Arpège, un sloop dessiné et construit en 1967, par Michel Dufour. | All Boats Avenue

*L'Arpege is a coastal cruising sailboat designed by the naval architect Michel Dufour and built between 1967 and 1976 at sites Dufour Yachts in La Rochelle (Charente-Maritime, France).*

Wikipedia

The Arpege was designed by Michael Dufour in 1966 as *the first of his volume production boats*. It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing. However, it was also a spacious boat, with a very broad beam for its time, as a review in 1966 commented "it is astonishing how much space below the increase in beam makes."

Arpege



bobperry said:


> ... And when I see misinformation posted or a history posted with gaping holes in it I will continue to speak up and do my best to correct the situation. I feel very confident doing this.


I have no doubt you are a very confident man.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

No need to be snide again Paulo.

By definition if the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup it was a race boat. and an effective one.
"It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing."

But be clear that what we would define as a "race boat" today is not the same way it would have been defined in 1966. Those were the days of dual purpose boats that were intended to be raced one day and family cruised the next. You can see the exat same philosophy at work in the CCA boats of the same era. They were very cruisy boats designed to rate well under the CCA rule. They were raced and cruised. The line of distiction was not so defined as it is today.

I have no need to belabor this subject any further.

I know you don't like to be challenged on your "facts" but this is a public forum so I will continue to challenge when I think it is warranted.


----------



## PCP

*Philippe Briand last boats: P2 and Vertigo*

The 38m P2 is also a 2008 design and even if I like it less than Bristolian it is a very beautiful yacht with a great interior. It was designed for Perini and it is an aluminium one:




























I hope he finds time to continue to design for us, poor guys that have to content with smaller sailboats. Even those he designs admirably well. The last design in what regards production boats is the very recent and beautiful CNB 76 (I have posted about it). Before that the CNB 60, the jeanneau 57DS and 53Ds, the Sun Odyssey 509, 469, and the 409, a truly great design. Also great designs the First 45 and First 50, two boats that join performance with a great cruising interior.

I like particularly the First 45 that even if near its replacement time is still one of the most beautiful boats around, inside and outside. Kind of classic on its lines.



*Interior 360:*

Beneteau-first-45


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> ..
> By definition if the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup it was a race boat. and an effective one.
> "It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing."
> 
> But be clear that what we would define as a "race boat" today is not the same way it would have been defined in 1966. Those were the days of dual purpose boats that were intended to be raced one day and family cruised the next. ...
> I have no need to belabor this subject any further.
> 
> I know you don't like to be challenged on your "facts" but this is a public forum so I will continue to challenge when I think it is warranted.


Bob, it was a mass production, big interior volume, coastal cruiser. The boat sold 1500 boats in some years and on a single year sold 400 boats. You should know that high profile performance cruisers, boats pointed more for racing than for cruising, don't sell this way. Didn't sell like that 50 years ago and don't sell in great numbers now.

The Arpege was for years the cruiser more sold in Europe. The boats that sold more are the ones that are designed to the main market, boats pointed to the average cruiser.

You probably will know what was the 30ft cruiser more sold on the US at that time. There you have a boat to compare with the Arpege in what regards sail performances (I bet it was a full keel boat and a lot slower, or more boring as you say).

The fact that a main market cruiser could have won the half ton cup and many other races only show how advanced that cruising design was for its time...and that's what i have been telling from the beginning. It also show that 50 years ago European cruisers liked already fast modern cruising boats.

Regard

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*First 45 racing and....with some problems: What a mess*

Since we are talking about the First 45 that is not only a very nice cruiser but a good IRC racer, not a top one but one able to finish in podium places like on the 2013 Sydney Hobart


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I am struggling to understand your argument here.

The Arpege rated well under the RORC and fit the Half Ton Class limit. I am sure it was designed to fit the Half Ton class. It would not have been an accident. Yacht designers do not work that way. It was a very effective RORC design and It's race record proves without a doubt that it was a very effecient racing yacht in it's early days.

A similar US production boat of that era would be the Robert Finch designed Islander 30. It was a comfy and fast cruiser/racer. I raced many miles on one myself. The big difference between the Arpege and the Islander 30 was the I-30 was a more advanced design with a broad stern and a spade rudder. However it would have rated well above the Half Ton Class limit. On the whole, if hull numbers are your criteria for sucess then yes, they built more Arpeges than I-30's. I think they built about 500 I-30's.

But I'm really, truly done arguing this Paulo. I am comfortable with my facts.


----------



## PCP

*Best selling American sailboat in 1966?*



bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> I am struggling to understand your argument here.
> ....
> 
> A similar US production boat of that era would be the Robert Finch designed Islander 30. It was a comfy and fast cruiser/racer. I raced many miles on one myself. The big difference between the Arpege and the Islander 30 was the I-30 was a more advanced design with a broad stern and a spade rudder. ..


You mean that the Islander 30 was the mass production cruiser more sold in the US on the late 60's?

*"The ISLANDER 30 is a raised deck version of the ISLANDER 29"*

ISLANDER 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

The 1968 Islander 29/30 of that era was designed by Joseph McGlasson or at least is the information here:

ISLANDER 29 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

It looks "old" when compared with the Arpege:





I think the Islander 30 you refer (by Robert Finch) was a 1970 boat designed 4 years later. They build the boat from 1966 to 1985 (19 years) and even so they only built 500 sailboats. are you sure this was the best sailing boat in the US at the time?

The Arpege was built from 1966 to 1976 and they built 1500 but the sales were residual after 1973 because the boat was replaced by the Dufour 31, a more modern and fast boat, a boat very similar to the Islander 30 Bahama by Robert Finch (1973).

ISLANDER BAHAMA 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

I don't know if this one was the best seller but certainly sold more boats at that time: From 1965 to 1969 (only 4 years) sold 304 boats, the Columbia 29 MKII:



and then substituted by this one (Columbia 30) that from 1971 to 1973 sold 287 boats.



This means a total of 591 sailboats sold in 6 years, much more than the 500 islanders sold in 19 years.

Remember we are talking about main market and what defines main market is the number of boats sold: Those are the boats the average cruiser want, not the ones that want them to race. The Arpege was a main market boat, the Islander not. it seems the Columbia were much more but I don't know the American market of the end of the 60's and I don't know if there was boats with more sales (30ft) then the Columbia.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:

No. Read my post again.
I clearly said "the Robert Finch designed Islander 30".
I have no idea why you posted drawings of those other boats. You are confused.

I am referring to the Islander 30 designed by Robert Finch.
I chose this boat because it was a very popular boat that was raced and cruised. I chose this boat because I raced on an Islander 30 for two years. I know this boat. It's just a nice, dual purpose boat from about the same era as the Arpege. Nothing more.

The Columbia sold well but it was not a well built boat and despite the fact that they sold a lot of them, due to low cost, it was never a succesful race boat. There was a death in a heavy air race in my area in1974 aboard a Columbia 30 with a rudder failure. I was in that race.

But I never mentioned Columbia's in my post. Why are you mentioning Columbias? Columbia built some interesting and very succesful boats. The Columbia 26 was hugely succesful and a very effective racer. The Columbia 52 was quite succesful. But they were chopper gun boats and not well put together. They had a very spotty reputation for quality. I would not use them for a reference.

I think it's high time you let this go. Give it a rest. I have no idea what you are trying to prove. You said your piece and I said mine.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> 
> No. Read my post again.
> I clearly said "the Robert Finch designed Islander 30".
> I have no idea why you posted drawings of those other boats. You are confused.
> 
> I am referring to the Islander 30 designed by Robert Finch.
> I chose this boat because it was a very popular boat that was raced and cruised. I chose this boat because I raced on an Islander 30 for two years. I know this boat. It's just a nice, dual purpose boat from about the same era as the Arpege. Nothing more.
> 
> The Columbia sold well but it was not a well built boat and despite the fact that they sold a lot of them, due to low cost, it was never a succesful race boat. There was a death in a heavy air race in my area in1974 aboard a Columbia 30 with a rudder failure. I was in that race.
> 
> But I never mentioned Columbia's in my post. Why are you mentioning Columbias? Columbia built some interesting and very succesful boats. The Columbia 26 was hugely succesful and a very effective racer. The Columbia 52 was quite succesful. But they were chopper gun boats and not well put together. They had a very spotty reputation for quality. I would not use them for a reference.
> 
> I think it's high time you let this go. Give it a rest. I have no idea what you are trying to prove. You said your piece and I said mine.


It seems you don't understand and I find it odd.

The sailboat market has many segments: Race boats, top cruiser racers that are much more used for racing than for cruising, performance cruisers, main market cruisers, luxury cruisers, voyage boats, daysailers and so on.

What defines main market is the type of boats that sell more while cruisers. There will be faster cruiser racers and performance cruisers but their sales are small comparatively with the main market.

The Arpege was a main market cruiser and the cruiser that sold more boats in all Europe during several years.

*I said that probably the best selling main market American cruiser on 1966 was a full keel boat and if it had 30ft, a slower boat than the Arpege.
*

You talk about a 1970 (or 1973) boat, an Islander designed by Robert Finch that was not obviously the most sold boat in 1966 because it was only designed several years after that. It was not also, contraty to the Arpege the American bestseller on the 30ft cruising class. The Columbias sold much more on the late 60's, beginning of the 70's and they are a different type of boat.

I posted the Columbia because the Colombia 29 *is not a posterior design* regarding the Arpege and because it was much more a* main market boat* (sold much more), compared with the Islander 30. I posted the Islander that existed in 1966, when the Arpege was designed and it was not the one designed by Finch, but an old looking boat.

*Your main confusion here seems to keep thinking that the Arpege was a race boat. It was not it was a main market coastal cruiser* and the best seller regarding that type of boats in Europe

I hope it is clear now

Regards

Paulo


----------



## mitiempo

This is the Islander 30 that Bob is referring to:


----------



## bobperry

I have no idea what are saying anymore Paulo. It seems like you are like a dog chasing his tail.

But to put this to a quick end because it has now become silly how about this:
Yes, Paulo you are right. You are always right. I was silly to think that I could have my own opinion. You always know better.

Paulo's Papal pronouncements are infallible.


----------



## bobperry

Miti:
Yep, that's the boat. I did Swiftsure on one, twice. The second time was the beginning of the blooper era. We borrowed a chute from a lightning Class sloop and tried to fly it like a blooper. They were very good boats, stiff and relatively fast. Nice and roomy and pretty well built. I always thought they had a nice clean look to them.

They had one area where you had to be careful. Look at that profile drawing. Focus on the rudder. In reverse if you let go of the rudder it would spin arouind and hit the prop.

Robert Finch was a full time fireman in So Cal and a part time yacht designer. This was his most succesful design. The next boat Islander produced was my Islander 28.


----------



## PCP

*Bermuda 77*

On another thread there was some talk about this boat, a Shionning design. Schionning design would be much bigger if it was not an Australian cabinet, away from the main markets. Their expertise in Cats is just great and they have some of the best designs around.

The Bermuda 77 was built in South Africa and are going to be used as a charter in the Bermudas. That's a new tendency in what regards luxury charter boats and many big cats are being built for that market. This one looks great:






















Schionning Designs from Julie Geldard on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

mitiempo said:


> This is the Islander 30 that Bob is referring to:


Thanks Mitiempo, I know. That is a 1970 (73?) design. The Arpege is a 1966 design. In 1966 the current Islander 29 was a boat with an old designed keel, kind of a modified full keel, a slow boat.

All the discussion was about Bob saying that the Arpege was a slow boat and a boring boat to sail. That has to do with the type of boat the Arpege is, I mean being slow. Bob thought that the Arpege was a race boat or a sports boat. It was not. It was a main market big production coastal cruiser and the best selling cruiser in Europe for several years.

To compare the Arpege with an American boat, to see if it is slow or boring, you would have to compare it with a boat of the same segment and a boat from the same time (1966) and from the same segment market: main market, meaning the type of boats that sell more (that's what make them main market).

Bob gave as example of a boat that only appeared 4 years after the Arpege was on the market and one type of boat that was not main market on the American market. I don't know the American market of the end of the 60's, beginning of the 70's but I noticed that on that period of time the Columbia type was much more popular than the Islander (sold much more when the Arpege was in production) and therefore it was a much better base of comparison as two main market boats, regarding being boring or slow.

Four years later, at about the same time the boat Bob is referring was launched appeared on the European market the Scampi 30 a Swedish boat designed by the Swede Peter Norlin. That was a much more sportive and expensive boat, sold in small numbers and that for 3 years dominated the half ton cup. Not main market for sure

Anyway Bob is contradicting himself : he says that the Arpege is radical for its time and is a race boat and then says that as a main market cruiser (that's what the boat is) is slow and boring.



bobperry said:


> The fact that the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup proves, to at least it's crew, that it was a racing boat. if it were not a race boat I sincerely doubt it would have entered the half Ton Cup series.
> 
> If you look at the competition for the 1966 Half Ton Cup you will see that the Arpege with it's fin keel and separate rudder was almost "radical" for it's time. In those days many boats still had full keels.
> ...


Bottom point, what I said and repeat is that the boat in 1966 had a remarkable performance for a main market mass production coastal cruiser, so good that it won several races, a thing that was not intended on his design program. As Bob agrees it was a radical boat for its time and one that helped to spread the concept of a modern boat with a fin ballasted keel and a rudder well away from the keel. Certainly not a boring or slow boat for 1966.



Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*New Finot 100ft Nomad IV*

I only wish that guy stop cutting the movie and let us see this carbon beauty. What a waste of a movie. Couldn't they have a professional doing that movie, being that a multi-million boat and all?






Teaser Nomad IV, 100' full carbon cruiser from Tanguy Conq on Vimeo.


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## bobperry

Yes, your holyness. Once again you are so right.
I am so sorry to have an opinion.
Regards,
Bob P.


----------



## robelz

First race with the new SF 3600, new A35 and new JPK 10.80:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t31/1801179_490619784375393_1443317939_o.jpg


----------



## robelz

A35

I think these pics are from the new A35. At least the 2 pictures from the trade fair are.


----------



## PCP

*"New" A35*



robelz said:


> A35
> 
> I think these pics are from the new A35. At least the 2 pictures from the trade fair are.


Yes, they are. There are two movies that show the boat. The interiors looked great before I saw those of the new JPK 10.80. Now they just look good for the type of boat











Regards

Paulo


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## robelz

The A35's hull looks better to me, but I will never buy a boat by this criteria...


----------



## PCP

*Sunfast 3600 / JPK 10.80*



robelz said:


> First race with the new SF 3600, new A35 and new JPK 10.80:
> 
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t31/1801179_490619784375393_1443317939_o.jpg


That's an incredibly good result for the JPK that not only looks to have a much heavier (and good) interior as they had very little time for fine tuning the boat and rig.

The guys that are at the wheel of the two boats are also very interesting:

On the Sunfast Luc Gellusseau an old timer than knows one or two things about sailing, have been the skipper of the French american's cup boat (monohulls) and 8 times world champion (in different boats), Admiral's Cup winner in 1991 and raced 5 times the America's cup.

On the JPK another old timer, the builder himself, JP Kelbert with mostly a past as solo sailor but also not a stranger to regatta sailing.

It is very significant that both boats have beaten all competition, a strong one: 4 A35 a JPK 110 and a Mat 10.10.

I had a better look at the different races with special incidence on the real times:

*1st race*:

SUN FAST 3600...........01:20:50
A 35	........................01:20:56	
JPK 10.80...................01:21:05

*2nd race*:

JPK 10.80....................01:27:38
SUN FAST 3600............01:28:38	
JPK 110.......................01:30:15

*3rd race*:

SUN FAST 3600.............01:11:12
A 35............................01:11:53	
JPK 10.80.....................01:12:13

*4th race- coastal race*:

A 35	..........................01:10:42
SUN FAST 3600.............01:11:19
JPK 10.80.....................01:12:29

2ème Challenge de Printemps 2014 : inscrits et classements

Very interesting results that show two boats very close in performances and also a A35 that is very close too. Pity we had not a JPK 10.10 racing. The 110 is a bigger, older and slower boat.... and even so come in 3th in one race.

Some 6 years ago I visited Jean-Pierre on its small shipyard to see a 110 that was one of the boats that I was considering to have as a cruising boat. Great boat still today and JPK a very nice guy that can adapt a boat to your needs like a tailored suit: the guy knows about everything regarding the needs of a solo racer, a crew racing and short handed cruising and is happy to make all the needed changes on his sailboats.

As unexpected the poor result of the Mat 10.10, a new Mills design and a boat that on the paper looks very fast. Here in real time on the coastal race could not beat neither a Grand Soleil 37 neither the JPK 110, a bit bigger those two but with a lower rating. The regatta results were not good also.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Jpk 10.80*

JPK is speaking a lot (about the shipyard and about this boat) but in the meantime we can have a better look at the hull.

The boat has already proved that is very at ease on the regatta field. Next big challenge will be the Spi Ouest were he will really see its performance against the best boats on the IRC circuit and for solo or short crew racing we will see on the Fastnet and on the Transquadra.


----------



## PCP

*German Frers, a cutting edge old timer NA.*

German Frers is best known for the lovely swans from the 80's, cutting edge at the time, magnificent cruiser racers that many still associate now with the perfect offshore cruiser.

Also known by his more conservative work since 89 with Halberg-Rassy but few will associate it with its contemporary cutting edge work for Wally.

The Frers family has the future assured in what regards the continuation of a major NA contribution to yacht design : German learned with his father and continued his work and now Mani is already working side by side with Frers.

Let's look at some of their more recent work:

First a daysailer, a 60ft and an absolutely beautiful boat&#8230;incredibly fast too:

*"Ciao Gianni" (a tribute to Gianni Agnelli) was born around the pleasure of day sailing. This is a combination of power, efficiency and acceleration.

Single handling sailing, easy maintenance, reliability and the possibility of sailing in any wind condition were the only requirements from an expert owner who had a successful Frers day sailer before."*









Wally Indio:

*"The design concept of Indio gravitates around efficiency.

Even in the lightest breeze she has to deliver an exciting performance and at the same time be a seaworthy yacht for long passages in bad weather.

The above will also reduce auxiliary engine power and fuel consumption while providing the guests with maximum amount of sailing time.

This approach requires the use of the latest technologies for design, construction and onboard systems.

The hull is a new generation shape developed for maximum performance and enhanced sea keeping capabilities using Tank Testing, Computational Fluid Dynamic, feedback from previous designs and new ideas&#8230;.

The appendages package is a direct result from the racing developments with maximum control as the priority.

The simple Sail Plan has been refined with endless iterations together with the hull and appendages to come up with the best package.

The construction method makes extensive use of carbon fibre to achieve a though structure able to sustain the loads associated with this type of yacht in any weather condition plus high speed impact or running aground cases&#8230;.

The deck layout, with its two cockpits offers plenty of privacy for the guests and the teak coachroof provides many options for enjoying the deck.

This simple layout allows for all manoeuvres to be completed with minimum crew and clatter.

The onboard systems, from the two gear direct steering system to the powered assisted sail controls, work flawlessly; key for a thrilling sail.Having completed the trials at the Superyacht Regatta in Porto Cervo both in light airs and strong breeze, achieving speeds above 20 knots while comfortably enjoying the ride with a friendly crew is a testament of the sound design, engineering and construction quality achieved."*












And already with some years Wally Magic Carpet II: a lifting keel yacht that has won several maxi races, able also to provide luxurious cruising:












But it seems his owner wants it better and faster so there are plans for a Magic carpet III, a 130ft yacht. It looks more sharp and nicer than the previous Margic Carpet and I bet it will be faster:


----------



## robelz

Slightly off topic: This is what I call "meat on the rail"...


----------



## PCP

*Latin sails*



robelz said:


> Slightly off topic: This is what I call "meat on the rail"...


...

Great movies and great sailing images are always on topic. For me there is no sail more elegant and beautiful than a Latin rig. Unfortunately beautiful does not mean more efficient or most of all, easy to manage. There is still a lot of serious racing going one with Latin sails on traditional boats: The Spanish have a championship and the Arabs too.

The hulls are also beautiful and modern in a way that they maximize hull form stability: beautiful hulls on your movie and beautiful hulls and sails here:


----------



## eric17

Hi Bob,
You will find tons of pictures on the (french) web site "Voiles alternatives", especially under the "Ailes souples / Soft wings" folder.

May I plead for another type of "Mom & Mop" sails ? It's the "Ljungström sails evolution", an actual Lazy Pop system ! I made a page (in french again, sorry) about this : nauticaltrek.com/12771-2-voiles-ferlables-sur-mats-non-haubanes-montaubin-hobie-raptor-etc 

Eric


----------



## PCP

*German Frers Swan 60 and a comparative look at some previous models.*

German Frers had designed not only super yachts, but many production boats for the biggest shipyards like Dufour, Grand Soleil, Moody, Beneteau, Hylas, besides all Halberg-Rassy and Swan since the 80's.

Regarding the Swan and since he is designing them for the past 30 years and the boats have always maintained the same basic program : cruiser-racers in a luxurious and not radical way, it would be very interesting not only to look at the Swan 60 but also to other successful designs along the years with about the same size to have a view at how hull, keel and ruder design have been evolving along the years allowing for better, faster and safer boats.

Off course, all performance cruisers that are meant to race as well as cruising have hulls influenced by racing boats since these represent the state of the art in what regards performance and they are also influence by the rating rules that are there not to influence design but to rate with fairness sailing boats. At some time they all create distortions but then they are changed to allow faster and more modern boats to be competitive.

In the end, looking at the global picture, more than the boats being influenced by rating rules it is the boat design development towards better and faster sailboats that promote the changes in rating rules. That does not mean that looking at a particular and localized period of time the opposite is not also true, with particular relevance some decades ago, meaning that some sailboat, particularly, cruiser-racer designs (that are always influenced in some extent by the existent rating), were heavily influenced by the distortions created by rating, trying to take the better deal out of it.

In some past cases, particularly in the 80's that influence was really big creating in some cases less fast and less seaworthy sailboats in an attempt to protect the existent fleet from more light, stiff and faster sailingboats.

Saying this it is very clear that regarding these Swan models, the more recent is always a better sailboat regarding the previous one and regarding a comparison between the first, the 1980 Swan 51, and the last one, the 2009 Swan 60 the difference in performance, interior space, overall stability and speed is huge.

Consider also that the Swan and typically almost all Nordic boats are very conservative in what regards boat design. The Swan is considered a model of elegance precisely due to its almost classic lines regarding the time of its making, generally regarding all models. The hulls follow the same trend and even if always to the state of the art always followed a classical approach, meaning on tradition and evolving rather than radical or revolutionary.

That makes them particularly interesting for this time comparison even if the first design (1980 Swan 51) is substantially influenced by the IOR rule (that disappeared at the beginning of the 90's). After 1990 the rating rules become much more adapted to sailboat developments searching a better sailing performance and the rules were increasingly modified to take into account new design improvements. Today the two major handicap rules, the IRC and ORC are revised each year and even if the IRC remains a partially secret formula, the ORC (with an open one) counts on its technical committee (that is responsible for those annual changes) with some of the best NA, in what regards to handicap racing design. There are serious plans to join the two major rating handicap systems on a single one in a near future.

In this comparison take also in consideration that beam in sailboat design (for the same type of boat) is not entirely proportional to the length of the boat and therefore a 60 would always have a more elongated shape than a 50 ft boat and that one the same regarding a 40ft boat.

The hulls, rudders and keels speak for themselves and the evolution direction is obvious and not particular to Frers but to modern yacht design, particularly to this on the tradition approach to sailboat development that we can find mostly in Nordic and Italian designs.

*The 1980 Swan 51*:



*The 1990 Swan 55:*



*The 1996 Swan 56:*



*The 2009 Swan 60*:



The Swan 60 marks also a new approach from Swan that asked to German Frers not only a boat that would be beautiful, able to cruise anywhere in comfort anyhere, competitive while racing but also a boat that could be sailed easily by a couple. For sure if German Frers had designed a new 2014 model we would have seen some minor differences regarding the 60, maximizing the water line regarding the bow and the transom and judging by more recent designs, with the beam further pulled back but as it is the Swan 60 is still a very contemporary boat and as most Swans, a beautiful boat.

German Frers says about the Swan 60 and its program:

*"The new Swan 60 combines a voluminous interior, a large protected cockpit and racing performance.

To conciliate these futures, we have made extensive use of state of the art technology in both design and construction methods together with years of successful experiences in this size.

The end result is a low drag hull and appendage package, with a long dynamic waterline at displacement and semi planning speeds. These performance refinements bring also improved seakeeping characteristics.

The Sail plan is powerful but easy to handle. Most of the time the Mainsail and furling jib combination will be enough to achieve a good performance. A storm headsail can be hoisted on a separate stay. For light airs and downwind cruising a furling all purpose sail can be tacked in the bow.

For racing the possibility to mount a bowsprit with large area downwind sails will make for an exhilarating ride downwind. &#8230;

The thinking behind the deck was to provide more than one area to loosen up while sailing or at anchor to avoid that feeling of having to stay in one place and provide the opportunity to flow around the yacht at ease.

The yacht can be sailed easily by two persons with the aid of powered winches and a layout that allows the helmsman to get involved in the manoeuvre if needed.

The steering wheel is positioned right behind the cockpit to enhance the steering experience from a position that allows a good view of the sails and waves. ..

A raised platform in the aft part of the cockpit provides another protected area for sun bathing and allows the storage of a tender through the transom door.

An open cockpit version is available for the racing oriented owners together with a number of practical details that have been studied to combine user-friendliness and aesthetics.

The interior was designed having great spaces with plenty of natural light in mind.&#8230;.

Hull windows, coachroof portholes and large hatches confer natural light and outside views.

Forward of the saloon, the hefty owners cabin grants the privacy and feeling of a larger yacht. There are two options for the layout of this cabin to allow personalisation.&#8230;

There are two draft options at 2.9 m and 3.6 m. Both keels use the same structure and provide the same stability so it's easy to change if needed.

A new version available is a 2.5 m draft with a smaller rig, the ultimate cruiser.

The high stability, forgiving appendages and a direct steering system are all ingredients for a light and responsive yacht."*

&#8230;.


----------



## bobperry

Eric:
Thanks I'll check that out. I found a couple of photos myself.

I used to race in beer can races against one of the original, reverse sheer, bubble cabin trunk, Ljungstrom rigs. It was not particularily fast but I don't know if that was the rig or the boat. It was interesting.

My article is for a blog and I don't want to get too obscure. If I say Ljungstrom rig over here, no one will know what I am talking about.


----------



## PCP

*Cruising and circumnavigating on a nice hull*

These crazy guys have been very popular on internet. They are cruising on a home made 12m boat, type RM (Plywood and epoxy). I said nice hull because in fact it is a very nice hull but the design of the cabin is awful.

In fact I have been trying to find out who is the NA, I mean the one that designed the plans, of that boat ("Mésange Noir" is the name). It seems to me a Lombard design but the owner don't say on any place who is the NA and I looked well. I bet that the NA was so horrified with that cabin that forbid him to say that boat was designed by him

But everything seems to have been made accordingly to the project and very nicely done, except the cabin. Nice project too.

Came on guys, can someone find the hull designer?

Regarding the videos, the two last have sub titles and they are not only funny but show a very light boat going fast and crossing oceans with five adults aboard, 5 crazy guys, I tell you


----------



## robelz

David Réard is the NA as you can see on the data sheet in the first vid from 4:17...


----------



## bobperry

*"That does not mean that looking at a particular and localized period of time the opposite is not also true,* with particular relevance some decades ago, meaning that some sailboat, particularly, cruiser-racer designs (that are always influenced in some extent by the existent rating), were heavily influenced by the distortions created by rating, trying to take the better deal out of it. "

Huh?


----------



## PCP

*David Réard*



robelz said:


> David Réard is the NA as you can see on the data sheet in the first vid from 4:17...


Thanks, I did not noticed that it was on the movie. Great eyes, it was not very easy to catch and I did not expect to be there since it is not on his site.

That's funny because I had been some days ago on David Réard site trying to get more information about one of his designs and certainly that particular boat is not there. I believe he is not very happy with the way that cabin looks. Probably it is a variation of a Classic 395 with a "funny" cabin. Doesn't look classic anymore

Edit: It is a Classic 395, this one:



For the length probably he considered the LOA with that big spi pole. No other they had only taken pictures from that boat from below. Very nice hull.

The Classic 395:







David Réard's most know sailboat is the Bepox and I had already posted here also about other of his boats, the Walkabout 43:

http://www.walkabout.it/en/yachts-projects/






The Bepox:
















I was on the site a week ago looking for information on this boat:



I wanted to make a post about it and his solo skipper, that after having circumnavigated on the "right" direction is planing to use this boat (that was designed for that) to circumnavigate by the three capes, but this time against the prevailing winds and without any fossil energies.

I am very curious about what David Réard will consider the best 34ft boat to do that. Certainly not as beamy as what he normally designs for general use with that size but with only 34ft it cannot be too narrow. A boat with that size with passagemaking in mind needs all stability it can get, including hull form stability but cannot be too beamy since it will be going upwind most of the time.

An interesting young NA and among the one that has more interesting stock plans. Very interesting and nice boats:







































Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Both of those cabin trunks are not very good looking.


----------



## PCP

*New boat: Euphoria 54*

Euphoria? I bet this will not say anything to almost all. That's a new line of yachts from Sirena&#8230;and even if some know the shipyard most will never have heard about it&#8230;but I am pretty sure that they will heard a lot more in the future.

If I say that Sirena is the shipyard that makes the Azuree that started with some interesting boats (33 and 40) and went one with a truly great one, the Azuree 46, then you all will understand what I am talking about.

Azuree 46:






I saw the boat in Dusseldorf and the design looks as good as on the video with a good quality interior. Great work by Rob Humphreys: a very fast, beautiful and comfortable cruiser.

I learned also that the "old" 40 was going to be replaced soon by another Rob Humpreys design (even if the 40 has few years) and I thought to myself, that these guys knew what they were doing, have the money to invest and probably would be a big shipyard in no time: High quality boat design brought by the best Nas, great building quality and a relatively low price should bring them success rapidly.

I thought that rob Humphreys would be their NA for all models but then I heard about Euphoria. Euphoria is not the name of a model but the name of a brand new line to join to the existent Azuree, a line of yachts that start at 56ft and has already previewed a 68 and a 84ft boat&#8230;.and the designer of this one is not Humphries but German Frers.

They could have not chosen better: Humphreys for the "smaller" boats, Frers for the big yachts, boats with a superior finish, that will go on the Swan approach and I am not talking only about looks but also about the speed...at a much lower price.

What is fantastic is that I had heard about this new line just some time ago, they just finished launching the 46 and they have already the Euphoria 54 built and ready to launch: Big investment and hard play by this recent Turkish shipyard.

I had just seen the design and I was posting about it:












&#8230;and they have already the boat on display on the Istanbul Boat show:







The boat is not only beautiful, with an interior designed by one of the best design specialist cabinet:

DESIGN UNLIMITED | Superyacht interior design and exterior styling

as German Frers had made it very fast as we can see looking at the boat dimensions (just a bit more than 15 T):

LOA : 16.31m&#8230;.LWL: 14.68m&#8230;.Beam: 4.78m&#8230;.Draft: 2.4/3.0m&#8230;.Engine 75hp&#8230;. Tankage 700L water, 450L diesel.

The boat as also a big dingy garage. That is one modern trend on boats bigger than 55ft: what is the purpose of having a sleek and beautiful yacht if the line is spoiled by having a dingy over the deck or on davits? The last solution is not only less seaworthy as it puts a lot of weight on the back of the boat. Not a problem for a truly big yacht (except aesthetics) but not a good solution on a 60ft boat.

Some posts back I was saying that if German Frers designed the 2009 Swan 60 now, it would be already a slightly different hull, with a more straight bow and a beam a bit pulled more aft (because that's the general development direction followed almost by all top NA) and here it is a 2013 German Frers design with about that size and those characteristics. That's amazing the speed of design evolution on the last years: 4 years of difference and it is almost sure that the same NA (if a top one) would not design the "same" boat exactly the same way. Not big differences, but clearly visible ones.





Watch more Boat Show videos on Frequency


----------



## PCP

*A swing keel for the Sun Odyssey 349*

Finally the swing modern keel is mounted on one of the big mass produced cruisers and the honor goes to the Sun Odyssey 349:





Lifting keels are around for many years and some, like the Southerly even have ballasted ones but only with a percentage of the total boat ballast on them, but hydraulic lifting keels with big draft and all ballast on the keel are a relatively new concept even if they are widely used already by many smaller production French shipyards.

They are by far the best solution in what regards a need of small draft maintaining boat performance in boats were a truly lifting keel (vertically) occupies too much interior space and that means all boats smaller than 40ft and even bigger.

Regarding lifting keels, if well designed on relatively small sailboats these keels have the advantage of allowing for more draft when deployed lowering the CG and giving a great performance upwind.


----------



## PCP

*New rounded bow on Open 60 Mare?*

Robelz has great hopes on the extension of the modifications that are being made on the open 60 Mare (ex-Foncia), his countryman Riechers Open 60.

I am a believer in Riechers but I had not the hopes of Robelz on the efficacy and extension of the modifications that are being made on the 7 year's old boat at CDK technologies, the shipyard that had built it and one of the world's best in what refers Carbon top racers.

Well, maybe I am changing my mind. I heard that the below picture is the new bow.



If all the rest has been modified with the same depth and care...maybe he will have a competitive boat after all, even if I reserve my opinion to the next Barcelona world race.


----------



## PCP

*Caribbean 600*

some very nice images:






Bellamente was launched in 2012, is a 72-foot Mini Maxi designed by judel/vrolijk and built by New England Boatworks.



On 2th Shockwave, Launched in 2009 and also a 72' Mini Maxi, was designed by Reichel Pugh and built by McConaghy Boats.


----------



## PCP

*Jim Clark's new 100ft VPLP designed 100ft*

Talking the absence of really top sailboats in the USA, that's going to change due to this baby:



Jim Clark's new Maxi will be designed by VPLP one of the main racing designers in Europe (the ones that with Verdier designed the winner of the last Vendee Globe) and will feature the looks of a big Open boat.

Things seem to be changing in Us in what regards millionaires, sailing and top racing boats: George David the ownert of that older 90ft boat (Rambler) that was defeated on the Caribbean 600 by two more modern 70fters, has a new 80 ft maxi being built at New England Boatworks, a Juan K design.

Also a new WallyCento, designed by Reichel Pugh is being built at Green Marine.

One difference remains to Europe, not in what regards big cruiser racers like the wally cento but in what regards truly racing boats like the one in the picture: They are not owned by multimillionaires and sailed by them but owned by sponsors and sailed by the best professional sailors. That explains the much bigger number of true top racing sailing boats in Europe. I hope that after the big success of the America's cup things start to change on that direction. Sailing needs America to be more into sail racing at top level and I hope this new boat is just the beginning.


----------



## PCP

*Dufour 310GL*

I have made a recent post about this boat that had impress me at the Dusseldorf boat show, said that the boat had a very nice hull designed by Felci but could not find a photo to show it. Here it is:



The boat was tested by the Italians from SVN that as usual made a great static test and comparison with the Hanse 325 but not much in what regards sailing. Anyway they said about it:

*"It took time to convince me that this was just a 31ft boat."*

Regarding sailing they say the obvious: that the boat with a selftaking small jib is not very at ease in light winds but as they failed to have a furling code 0 aboard could not really tell about the boat performance even if they think that will be good The boat can also be equipped with a bigger genoa.

Here is the test, in Italian...I know that most cannot read it but there is plenty of information on the many images. A nice graphic work:

SVN - Dufour 310 GL


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## PCP

*Owen and Clarke 130ft yacht*

Like on the smaller boats on big yachts the model of Open boats type of hulls is an option and the advantages besides huge interior space are sailing with little heel and need a much smaller crew. The concept took some time to get to big yachts (the first one was Nomad IV by Finot) but it seems to have come to stay.

Owen and Clarke another cabinet with experience in racing Open boats designed this beauty:


----------



## capt vimes

Is the first image contorted, or are me old eyes playing tricks on me...
The deck forward the mast looks enormous... But not so much on the other...


----------



## PCP

*Owen and Clarke 130 Maxi*



capt vimes said:


> Is the first image contorted, or are me old eyes playing tricks on me...
> The deck forward the mast looks enormous... But not so much on the other...


No, that's an effect of perspective. when something is big and you look at it fro one of the sides, the other looks smaller and this yacht is BIG (count the number of forward hatches and you will see it is the same.

A lateral view:


----------



## PCP

*Owen and Clarke 130 Maxi 2nd version*

And if you don't like the looks of that one, maybe you like more one of these versions

Click on the image and on the photobucket click on the + signal. These images deserve to be seen big. They lose a lot with the smaller size.


----------



## capt vimes

No paulo - i was right, your first image is distorted...
Just check the distance between the lifeline stanchions on it all along the sheer... You will realize that the distance gets wider to the bow but which is not the case on the rest of the images... 

on the lateral view from yours in a post above the mast seems to be placed very much midships... on the angled view you have the impression, that the mast is stepped very well aft amidships... which is clearly not the case, if those images all show the same boat...


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## HMoll

capt vimes said:


> No paulo - i was right, your first image is distorted...
> Just check the distance between the lifeline stanchions on it all along the sheer... You will realize that the distance gets wider to the bow but which is not the case on the rest of the images...


That's the view where the bow is closer to the camera, thus showing stanchions to appear at wider distance. I don't think it's distortion, just a funny perspective/camera angle of the model. In another angle, the bow looks short, cockpit's huge, and stanchions may seem closer as they go forward.


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Owen and Clarke 130 Maxi 2nd version*

no - just compare these two images:
almost same angle, apparently the same hull, completely different length of foredeck... the first one has an fish-eye like distortion to it, which should not be there from that angle and distance.


----------



## PCP

capt vimes said:


> No paulo - i was right, your first image is distorted...
> Just check the distance between the lifeline stanchions on it all along the sheer... You will realize that the distance gets wider to the bow but which is not the case on the rest of the images...
> 
> on the lateral view from yours in a post above the mast seems to be placed very much midships... on the angled view you have the impression, that the mast is stepped very well aft amidships... which is clearly not the case, if those images all show the same boat...


Same boat, different perspective. As I have said perspectives can be as misleading as real views if you look at the boat at a particular angle. this is the same boat that actually is just a project. The project is made in 3D in a computer and the computer can generate all the views you want...all correct but from different point of views and that´s what you have there. I am used to work with those perspectives and I have no doubt about that boat.

If you still have doubts count the stanchions and you will see that they match on both perspectives or on the lateral view.

The boats you posted (same hull different cabins) are viewed from different angles. I don't understand why you insist. I took all the images from the same presentation, sent by the NA cabinet to a Luxury Charter firm.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Javier Soto Acebal 130ft Angel's Share*

Owen and clarke has also a version of that 130ft for a daysailer look:



I can see some of you thinking: That's too much!!!! who would want a 130ft daysailer!!! Well they know that there is a market for it because they recently refited the original 2009 Soto Acebal 130ft Angel's Share (changes to the sailing systems, deck and sailplan). Soto is the Na but the overall desing, including interior is from Luca Bassani the Wally magician.

That's an amazing boat that deserves a better view:















The yacht, with the rig alterations from Owen and Clarke have been winning races:





A race boat in disguise?!!! 
No, not really. The boat looks like a daysailer or a racer on its new refit but it is truly a luxurious cruiser with race winning potential. That black hull disguises port hulls and the boat features not only zenithal ilunination but the typical wally big rear "window":


----------



## PCP

*From maxi to mini:*

Foiling is on the order of the day and this is the less expensive way of flying over the water. Mini foiling:
(the opening image, even if interesting, has nothing to do with the movie content, except maybe that foiling is sexy)


----------



## capt vimes

PCP said:


> Same boat, different perspective. As I have said perspectives can be as misleading as real views if you look at the boat at a particular angle. this is the same boat that actually is just a project. The project is made in 3D in a computer and the computer can generate all the views you want...all correct but from different point of views and that´s what you have there. I am used to work with those perspectives and I have no doubt about that boat.
> 
> If you still have doubts count the stanchions and you will see that they match on both perspectives or on the lateral view.
> 
> The boats you posted (same hull different cabins) are viewed from different angles. I don't understand why you insist. I took all the images from the same presentation, sent by the NA cabinet to a Luxury Charter firm.


why should i COUNT the stanchions? i was talking about the distance between them which varies in the perspective just too much...
and the angle in which the renders have been done on the two images i posted, is really too marginal to have such an great effect...
i do not doubt you, or the NA but i know what can and is done with advertising images - trust me on that, if you do not trust my or your own eyes... 
open the image in paint, lay the ruler and grid over the image and then count the horizontal pixels between stanchion #1 and #2 (73 px)
and between stanchion #4 and #5 (60 px) although all of those are on almost the same height, meaning almost parallel to the observer... that is just too much!
the good designer overdid it on the special effects and exaggerated the whole thing just that bit too much to look pleasing.


----------



## bobperry

Vimey is correct.
Perhaps this 3D model was prepared just a a sales tool, i.e. it's a pretty picture.
I have done that too.
But the type of 3D modeling I prefer can be used as a file for CNC cutting so it has to be dead acurate. This is a builder's tool and not just a sales tool.


----------



## JAndersB

Hi everybody,
I have once again been catching up on the thread after having spent most of the winter buried in deep snow with my snowboard. 

I have been slightly dissapointed by the level of discussion regarding chines and old Dufour models but at the same time knows how discussions on internet forums easily can "take off". 

Anyway, late last summer I was among the first to see and test sail the Oceanis 38. There was also a debate after that in regards to it having too low B/D-ratio. 

After this the boat has been chosen as Boat of the year in Europe in it's class and got good reviews as a fun and perhaps also good performer in higher winds. 

Any comments on this anomaly?

Best regards and may the summer come slowly, still some snowboarding to do.

Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> ....
> 
> Anyway, late last summer I was among the first to see and test sail the Oceanis 38. There was also a debate after that in regards to it having too low B/D-ratio.
> 
> After this the boat has been chosen as Boat of the year in Europe in it's class and got good reviews as a fun and perhaps also good performer in higher winds.
> 
> Any comments on this anomaly?
> 
> ....
> Anders


Hi, welcome back!

What anomaly? If I remember correctly you had the idea that the Oceanis 38 could be considered a performance cruiser. the low B/D ratio regards its comparison with performance cruisers and that is not what the Oceanis 38 is, as I had explained at the time. Its B/D ratio is perfectly normal for a main market family cruiser.

Performance cruisers, like the Dehler 38 or the Xp 38 or even the Salona 38, or if you want to look at boats with the same type of hull, the JPK 38, have for an identical draft and same type of keel a clearly superior B/D ratio. It comes with the territory, I mean performance cruisers.

The Oceanis 38 is a very interesting boat with a not very good performance in light winds (for a main market cruiser) but a good performer in all other areas specially downwind with stronger winds. Almost for sure an overall better performance than the Oceanis 37 and that was already a very good main market cruiser.

I posted the opinions of the several testers that elected the boat as European Family cruiser of the year and almost all put all the emphasis not on the sailing performance (that was good) but on the quality of the interior design/space and its versatility that was exceptional and revolutionary. That is what makes that boat exceptional not its sailing characteristics.

The Dehler 38, performance European boat of the year, even if not also elected by its extraordinary sailing performance (but for the balance between quality of the interior and sailing performance) is much faster than the Oceanis 38 and that is not surprisingly, since it is a performance cruiser.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Vimey is correct.
> Perhaps this 3D model was prepared just a a sales tool, i.e. it's a pretty picture.
> I have done that too.
> But the type of 3D modeling I prefer can be used as a file for CNC cutting so it has to be dead acurate. This is a builder's tool and not just a sales tool.
> ...


I know that you don't make those pretty 3D pictures yourself. You work in 2D and then someone passes the images to 3D . NAs from the new generation like Owen and Clarke just don't use 2D for designing. They do it directly in 3D (and then take from there 2D drawings if needed).

That means that the drawing of that 130ft was made directly in 3D and when the study is finished a program will generate from there the perspectives they want, nice renderings and all. They just have to select the point of view and the angular that they want to use. That's the way those perspectives were generated. Computer don't make mistakes in what regards generating perspectives however boats look better from some angles than others and it is normal that the designer chose the most appealing angle as your designer has made with that boat you have posted.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*and some wild sailing*






Triple P Wipeout - 23 Feb 2014 from Valencia Sailing on Vimeo.


----------



## PCP

*Caribbean 600*

another movie:


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I work with a team of specialists. I have an engineer, a fellow who is an expert at deck layouts and electronics and Jody Culbertson III an expert in 3D modelling. Each member of the team is given his asignment. Jody happens to be very good with 3D. If you would bother to take the time you will find I have mentioned his name many times and most of the images I post has his name of his company alongside mine. So really, I have no idea what you are talking about.

The fact is, and I know because I actually work in this industry, that you can produce quick 3D renderings for marketing and advertising that will look great but not be up to the tolerances required to be used for tooling files. Or, you can work with very accurate
3D files that can be used for CNC cutting. That's just one way the industry works. It varies from shop to shop. All different approaches are used.

Now you can go on getting all upset anytime I post but I can assure you I am not going away. Time for you to HTFU.

Take a look at this rendering. At the bottom it has my name and the name of Jody's company "C3 Design". I am always very careful to make sure the group that contributes to my design effort gets credit for their contribution.


----------



## JAndersB

Oceanis 38 a performance cruiser? I do not recall me saying that. And Dehler 38 much faster? Having owned an Oceanis 40, I do not think so. That the Oceanis 38 is not that fast in light wind is not that diffcult to predict looking at the rig but I felt something right in the hull when test sailing her and the magazines seems to agree.

Regarding the 3d renderings and distorsions I must say I tend to agree that the picture seems distorted. I earn my living working with 3d modelling in Solidworks. This is the same program that among other Najad, Nimbus and Nautor uses for instance. There are a lot of parameters you can set when rendering pictures and sometimes with rather silly effects. Might not be anything wrong technically with the picture but for a human eye it does look kind of strange in the front.

Anders


----------



## PCP

*Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38*



JAndersB said:


> Oceanis 38 a performance cruiser? I do not recall me saying that. And Dehler 38 much faster? Having owned an Oceanis 40, I do not think so. That the Oceanis 38 is not that fast in light wind is not that diffcult to predict looking at the rig but I felt something right in the hull when test sailing her and the magazines seems to agree.
> .....
> Anders


But in fact you are saying that, I mean that the Oceanis 38 has almost the speed of a performance cruiser when you are saying that it will not be much slower than the Dehler 38, that one a performance cruiser.

Fact is that on the comparative test (Voile magazine) with all the boats of the water at the same time and weak to medium light wind the "cheap" Varianta 37 (an older Hanse hull) showed to be much faster than the Oceanis 38 and of course, the Dehler 38 much faster than the Varianta 37, even if the comparison is not fair since the Varaianta 37, like the Oceanis 37 is a family cruiser (main market) while the Dehler 38 is a performance cruiser.

I doubt it but maybe someone has the idea of racing the Oceanis 38 and then we can have the rating files where the differences will be clear. If nobody would take an Oceanis 38 for racing....that would be significant too, meaning it is not that fast

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Barcelona World race: The Spanish Guillermo Altadill and the Chilien José Muñoz*

Dias de Playa will be glad Those two will race in Neutragena, a 2007 Farr plan previously known as Veolia Environnement (1st on the 2010 Route du Rhum with Roland Jourdain) and Hugo Boss (3rd on the last Vendee Globe with Alex Thomson), a good boat even if not one from the last generation. There will not be a skipper. Both will race with equal status.

*"Guillermo Altadill requires no introductions in the world of ocean sailing. He's Spain's most experienced ocean sailor, having clocked up the highest mileage (some 400,000 miles) and having completed the highest number of circumnavigations (six). He is also the fastest ever Spanish sailor; he has two round the world records and he is one of the world's most esteemed ocean speed sailing experts.

However, his experience is by no means limited to the world of ocean sailing; he took part in the America's Cup in 2007 and also coached the Tornado Class squad to Olympic gold at the Atlanta Olympic Games in 1996.

José Muñoz boasts a track record brimming with top-level competitive sailing and he is Chile's most experienced ocean sailor. José took second place at Portimao 2008/09 alongside Felipe Cubillos. The pair gave a brilliant performance aboard Desafío Cabo de Hornos (Cape Horn Challenge) taking second place overall and two leg victories. A particularly special leg win was between New Zealand and Brazil where the pair rounded the legendary Cape Horn in the lead.

José Muñoz has also crossed the Atlantic three times and is a specialist in IMS, MUMM 36, J24 and Soto 40 racing, as well as expertly adapting to any position on the boat. José is the first ever Chilean sailor to take part in an IMOCA regatta."*

Well, not a Spanish team but a Spanish speaking team

Barcelona World Race

The boat (will have a new paint job, of course):






and what about Alex? That means a new boat to him?


----------



## DiasDePlaya

*Re: Barcelona World race: The Spanish Guillermo Altadill and the Chilien José Muñoz*



PCP said:


> Dias de Playa will be glad Those two will race in Neutragena, a 2007 Farr plan previously known as Veolia Environnement (1st on the 2010 Route du Rhum with Roland Jourdain) and Hugo Boss (3rd on the last Vendee Globe with Alex Thomson), a good boat even if not one from the last generation. There will not be a skipper. Both will race with equal status.
> 
> *"Guillermo Altadill requires no introductions in the world of ocean sailing. He's Spain's most experienced ocean sailor, having clocked up the highest mileage (some 400,000 miles) and having completed the highest number of circumnavigations (six). He is also the fastest ever Spanish sailor; he has two round the world records and he is one of the world's most esteemed ocean speed sailing experts.
> 
> However, his experience is by no means limited to the world of ocean sailing; he took part in the America's Cup in 2007 and also coached the Tornado Class squad to Olympic gold at the Atlanta Olympic Games in 1996.
> 
> José Muñoz boasts a track record brimming with top-level competitive sailing and he is Chile's most experienced ocean sailor. José took second place at Portimao 2008/09 alongside Felipe Cubillos. The pair gave a brilliant performance aboard Desafío Cabo de Hornos (Cape Horn Challenge) taking second place overall and two leg victories. A particularly special leg win was between New Zealand and Brazil where the pair rounded the legendary Cape Horn in the lead.
> 
> José Muñoz has also crossed the Atlantic three times and is a specialist in IMS, MUMM 36, J24 and Soto 40 racing, as well as expertly adapting to any position on the boat. José is the first ever Chilean sailor to take part in an IMOCA regatta."*
> 
> Well, not a Spanish team but a Spanish speaking team


Some Chilean sailors did a big effort to put Jose Muñoz onboard with Guillermo Atadil. Guillermo visited Chile many times to organize this business. Jose "*****" Muñoz is an excellent crewman and I'm sure that will be a very good partner for Guillermo.


----------



## PCP

*The Mast walk:*

I am still figuring out about the best way to go to the top of my mast alone. I am big and heavy and not properly young.

Well, that's an option: it looks easy, at least for Alex Thomson


----------



## bpgoll

bljones said:


> The Seezunge C is a beautiful catboat. Check out the bar!
> 
> Seezunge C | VA Yachtdesign[/url]


You will find also some very beautiful and fast classic cruisers. Marc-Olivier seems to be a very versatile boat architect.


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38*



PCP said:


> But in fact you are saying that, I mean that the Oceanis 38 has almost the speed of a performance cruiser when you are saying that it will not be much slower than the Dehler 38, that one a performance cruiser.
> 
> Fact is that on the comparative test (Voile magazine) with all the boats of the water at the same time and weak to medium light wind the "cheap" Varianta 37 (an older Hanse hull) showed to be much faster than the Oceanis 38 and of course, the Dehler 38 much faster than the Varianta 37, even if the comparison is not fair since the Varaianta 37, like the Oceanis 37 is a family cruiser (main market) while the Dehler 38 is a performance cruiser.
> 
> I doubt it but maybe someone has the idea of racing the Oceanis 38 and then we can have the rating files where the differences will be clear. If nobody would take an Oceanis 38 for racing....that would be significant too, meaning it is not that fast
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


As said before and repeating again, It is always much easier to tune and increase a too small or "cheap" rig than a bad hull and keel. So, since I think the Oceanis 38 is such a good looking boat, both externally and especially internally, it is nice to read that the basics seems in place and adequately designed for good performance.

My own guess why it seems to perform good, at least when the small rig is not hampering it, is that Beneteau did not go down the Elan road, trying to make a planing performance cruiser, or cruiser and not going the full "Pogo" distance.

Using modern design input including double rudders but realising that a boat like this is not bought as a cruiser racer or for believing it will plane with cruising loads might perhaps be an explanation.

I personally would rather buy the Oceanis 38 and fix the rig instead of buying the comparatively traditionally designed Dehler with its missing hull windows. Or let's say it like this, do not show the Oceanis interior to your wife if you prefer another boat

On the other hand, a Dehler 38 with the Oceanis modern interior and hull windows and a super interesting package for our taste would be created. Partly it is already on the market but far too expensive. I am talking about the Solaris One 37.

Anders


----------



## PCP

*Hd 36*



bpgoll said:


> You will find also some very beautiful and fast classic cruisers. Marc-Olivier seems to be a very versatile boat architect.


Yes, Marc-Oliver von Ahlen is a very versatile Na and a very good one.

I have posted year several of his boats that goes from racers to classic modern boats:

The Sirius 310, 35 and the new 40, the Sailart 22, the SQ 25 all deserved long posts. I believe I had also posted about the Tide series but not about this beauty, the HD 36:





The boat is built by HD, wood specialists, the ones that also build that cat rig design, the Sole. It is very light (3670kg) has a lot of sail area (52m2 with jib) and I am sure it will be a delightful boat to own and sail.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38*



JAndersB said:


> As said before and repeating again, It is always much easier to tune and increase a too small or "cheap" rig than a bad hull and keel. So, since I think the Oceanis 38 is such a good looking boat, both externally and especially internally, it is nice to read that the basics seems in place and adequately designed for good performance.
> ...
> I personally would rather buy the Oceanis 38 and fix the rig instead of buying the comparatively traditionally designed Dehler with its missing hull windows. Or let's say it like this, do not show the Oceanis interior to your wife if you prefer another boat
> 
> On the other hand, a Dehler 38 with the Oceanis modern interior and hull windows and a super interesting package for our taste would be created. Partly it is already on the market but far too expensive. I am talking about the Solaris One 37.
> 
> Anders


Anders, the Solaris 37 has not the same type of hull of the Oceanis 38 but the type of hull of a Salona 38 or XP 38. Both have a far superior sailing performance regarding the Solaris 37. The Solaris 37 has a good sailing performance (better than the Oceanis 38, specially upwind) and a very good quality interior. A delightful boat, I agree, but not with a versatile interior like the Oceanis.

Regarding increasing performance on a hull like the Oceanis 38 I had already talked about this with you and that's when I talked about the boat needing to have a bigger B/D ratio for that.

As you know the boat has a smallish rig and to increase performance you would have to put a bigger rig, but rigs on sailboats are calculated regarding RM of the boat and knowing Conq taste for fast boats I am sure that boat has a rig as big as it can have with the present design parameters. To put a bigger rig it would be necessary to increase ballast and for that all boat structure would have to be reinforced resulting in a much more expensive boat. Not a thing one can do on a standard boat with Beneteau.

I agree the boat has a great interior and as test sailors have showed that boat has a very good performance downwind with lots of wind, were ballast is not as important and the big hull form stability and hull design give it an advantage.

Upwind, specially with waves, the boat would be very far away from a Dehler 38 simply because it has not the power to go against them with speed and overcome its superior wave drag. It is upwind that the ballast counts most compared with hull form stability.

I am not saying that the boat is not suited for you, it is a great sailboat regarding what is designed for, but not a performance cruisers. You are used to sail faster than other cruisers on the Opium 39. With this one with light conditions or upwind you will not have such look and all performance cruisers will be faster as well as some modern mass production cruisers of the same size.

That would have no importance to many but it causes me some confusion you consider downgrading performance from the Opium 39 to the Oceanis 38. I would have hated it. Yes the Oceanis 38 has a nicer and bigger interior than the Opium 39 and I understand that your wife would much prefer it but do you prefer it?

Anders since you are interested in the Oceanis 38 can't you ask to Benetau a Polar speed or speed chart just to see what is its performance? Benetau hates to give that sort of stuff even if Finot/Conq has it, but if you insist I am sure they will provide you with one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Xp 38 2 cabin layout.*

When the XP 38 come on the market just with one 3 cabin version layout and with a head in the middle of the boat (giving it a smallish saloon) I was quite pissed. A 3 cabin layout didn't make much sense and the way it was designed was poor, making for a not nice interior. At the time I said that the Salona 38 had a much nicer interior space.

Then, some time ago they come up with a 2 cabin layout (finally) and I said it here that it just looked nice but nothing as to be inside the boat to judge that and that's what I have done on the last Dusseldorf boat show. And yes the boat has improved hugely in what regards interior space an even design quality.

Very nice indeed. If I had no money limitations and would chose one 38fter for the type of sailing I do, it would be this one and 38ft is a very nice size for sailing solo and this one is a very fast sailboat. But I really would need a lot of money because the X-yachts high quality does not come cheap.

That's what I mean:


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38*



PCP said:


> Anders, the Solaris 37 has not the same type of hull of the Oceanis 38 but the type of hull of a Salona 38 or XP 38. Both have a far superior sailing performance regarding the Solaris 37. The Solaris 37 has a good sailing performance (better than the Oceanis 38, specially upwind) and a very good quality interior. A delightful boat, I agree, but not with a versatile interior like the Oceanis.
> 
> Regarding increasing performance on a hull like the Oceanis 38 I had already talked about this with you and that's when I talked about the boat needing to have a bigger B/D ratio for that.
> 
> As you know the boat has a smallish rig and to increase performance you would have to put a bigger rig, but rigs on sailboats are calculated regarding RM of the boat and knowing Conq taste for fast boats I am sure that boat has a rig as big as it can have with the present design parameters. To put a bigger rig it would be necessary to increase ballast and for that all boat structure would have to be reinforced resulting in a much more expensive boat. Not a thing one can do on a standard boat with Beneteau.
> 
> I agree the boat has a great interior and as test sailors have showed that boat has a very good performance downwind with lots of wind, were ballast is not as important and the big hull form stability and hull design give it an advantage.
> 
> Upwind, specially with waves, the boat would be very far away from a Dehler 38 simply because it has not the power to go against them with speed and overcome its superior wave drag. It is upwind that the ballast counts most compared with hull form stability.
> 
> I am not saying that the boat is not suited for you, it is a great sailboat regarding what is designed for, but not a performance cruisers. You are used to sail faster than other cruisers on the Opium 39. With this one with light conditions or upwind you will not have such look and all performance cruisers will be faster as well as some modern mass production cruisers of the same size.
> 
> That would have no importance to many but it causes me some confusion you consider downgrading performance from the Opium 39 to the Oceanis 38. I would have hated it. Yes the Oceanis 38 has a nicer and bigger interior than the Opium 39 and I understand that your wife would much prefer it but do you prefer it?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I am not writing this because I necessary is contemplating to "downgrade" to the Oceanis, this is more a general discussion continuing from the debate we had earlier regarding Oceanis 38 and B/D-ratio.

I do not think we need to repeat the discussion earlier but remeber the facts I gave about this boat, other similar boats and the Oceanis 40 I owned before. Based on that I still think the Oceanis 38 can carry a bigger rig. The swedish EYOTY-jury memeber testing the boat the same day as I did, totally agreed with me on that and said that Beneteau should do a Jeanneau and offer a performance version with bigger rig.The magazines testing it for the EYOTY now during the autumn seems to think it is a very good performer in higher winds. Should not be that if B/D-ratio would be totally off.

Since I have owned a tweaked Oceanis 40 for 3 years I know pretty well how a boat like this compare to a similar sized performance cruiser and I maintain that to use words as "much slower" or "not at all comparable" is not true. A well sailed boat like this, with good sails and rig components, can stand up very well to boats like Salona 38, Dehler 39 etc in normal family sailing. But not beating into 22 knots of wind in a competition, with mainsails without reefs, for example.

But, as I wrote before, my Oceanis 40 is, among all the boats I have owned over the years, one of the best boats beating into choppy seas if wind is pretty stable so the single rudder is not ower pressed. It was also one of the least noisy inside.

Even if we have minor speed differences between boats mentioned here, I do noth think they are so big that they necessary in all cases have to stand above other aspects in choosing a boat. Of bigger importance I think is the lousy equipment manufacturers keep throwing at the family cruisers. Replace that and you might have a pretty decent boat at a still very good price.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38*



JAndersB said:


> I am not writing this because I necessary is contemplating to "downgrade" to the Oceanis, this is more a general discussion continuing from the debate we had earlier regarding Oceanis 38 and B/D-ratio.
> 
> I do not think we need to repeat the discussion earlier but remeber the facts I gave about this boat, other similar boats and the Oceanis 40 I owned before. Based on that I still think the Oceanis 38 can carry a bigger rig. The swedish EYOTY-jury memeber testing the boat the same day as I did, totally agreed with me on that and said that Beneteau should do a Jeanneau and offer a performance version with bigger rig.The magazines testing it for the EYOTY now during the autumn seems to think it is a very good performer in higher winds. Should not be that if B/D-ratio would be totally off.
> 
> Since I have owned a tweaked Oceanis 40 for 3 years I know pretty well how a boat like this compare to a similar sized performance cruiser and I maintain that to use words as "much slower" or "not at all comparable" is not true. A well sailed boat like this, with good sails and rig components, can stand up very well to boats like Salona 38, Dehler 39 etc in normal family sailing. But not beating into 22 knots of wind in a competition, with mainsails without reefs, for example.
> 
> But, as I wrote before, my Oceanis 40 is, among all the boats I have owned over the years, one of the best boats beating into choppy seas if wind is pretty stable so the single rudder is not ower pressed. It was also one of the least noisy inside.
> 
> Even if we have minor speed differences between boats mentioned here, I do noth think they are so big that they necessary in all cases have to stand above other aspects in choosing a boat. Of bigger importance I think is the lousy equipment manufacturers keep throwing at the family cruisers. Replace that and you might have a pretty decent boat at a still very good price.
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


Anders, I edit a previous post with adding this:

*"Anders since you are interested in the Oceanis 38 can't you ask to Benetau a Polar speed or speed chart just to see what is its performance? Benetau hates to give that sort of stuff even if Finot/Conq has it, but if you insist I am sure they will provide you with one."*

Nothing like data to be able to compare both boat's performance and to see if that difference is big or not. Do you think you can have this information?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

I also like the Xp-38 a lot but as with almost all X-yachts, interior lay out always dissapoints me. As in the discussion about the Oceanis 38, other aspects than sailing performance might influence a choise of boat used for both nice sailing and live aboard capabilities. And how do 3 (or even worse a normal family of 4) look at TV comfortably in an XP-38 or Salona-38 interior?

Regards,
Anders


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38*



PCP said:


> Anders, I edit a previous post with adding this:
> 
> *"Anders since you are interested in the Oceanis 38 can't you ask to Benetau a Polar speed or speed chart just to see what is its performance? Benetau hates to give that sort of stuff even if Finot/Conq has it, but if you insist I am sure they will provide you with one."*
> 
> Nothing like data to be able to compare both boat's performance and to see if that difference is big or not. Do you think you can have this information?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I or any interested in the boat could of course ask for that. I wonder if it would say that much since I think, to make this boat interesting, you need to tweak the rig as much as possible. Lower cut, maximized genua, maximized main, perhaps longer boom, perhaps lowered boom, as I did on the Oceanis 40. All blocks changed, main sheet with track on cockpit floor. All these things does not influence polars but some.

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

JAndersB said:


> I also like the Xp-38 a lot but as with almost all X-yachts, interior lay out always dissapoints me. As in the discussion about the Oceanis 38, other aspects than sailing performance might influence a choise of boat used for both nice sailing and live aboard capabilities. And how do 3 (or even worse a normal family of 4) look at TV comfortably in an XP-38 or Salona-38 interior?
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


I don't know. I have a TV on my boat (come with the boat) but never use it. But when I can I will upgrade the quality of the stereo sound: That's what I like on the sailboat. At home on the winter I see lots of TV but on the boat I have always something better to do, including reading that I don't do much at home. A case of double personality

I agree with you that different cruisers have different needs and a choice of a cruising boat is influenced by the interior but for me (and my wife) the one of the Opium 39, Salona 38 or the new version of the XP 38 is good enough (even if we had a boat with a slightly bigger interior).

I could think of having a boat like the Pogo 12.50 (in what regards interior) if they put doors on it but my wife you not go with it. I certainly can understand that your family has another needs and having the family happy and together is very important to me and I certainly would consider that as very important while choosing a sailboat.

Probably what would satisfy you and your family is a boat that does not exist yet but that for what I have heard will fit your criteria, the one that is going to substitute the Azuree 40, if we took for comparison the new 46.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

PCP said:


> I don't know. I have a TV on my boat (come with the boat) but never use it. But when I can I will upgrade the quality of the stereo sound: That's what I like on the sailboat. At home on the winter I see lots of TV but on the boat I have always something better to do, including reading that I don't do much at home. A case of double personality
> 
> I agree with you that different cruisers have different needs and a choice of a cruising boat is influenced by the interior but for me (and my wife) the one of the Opium 39, Salona 38 or the new version of the XP 38 is good enough (even if we had a boat with a slightly bigger interior).
> 
> I could think of having a boat like the Pogo 12.50 (in what regards interior) if they put doors on it but my wife you not go with it. I certainly can understand that your family has another needs and having the family happy and together is very important to me and I certainly would consider that as very important while choosing a sailboat.
> 
> Probably what would satisfy you and your family is a boat that does not exist yet but that for what I have heard will fit your criteria, the one that is going to substitute the Azuree 40, if we took for comparison the new 46.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes, and the reason for me having the Opium 39 is of course that it by far is best in fullfilling all the different evaluating criterias we put on a boat.

But not all and that boat does not exist and probalby will never do either. But one should always keep an open mind 

Also, those criterias change over time. And evaluation goes on in boat development.

As you perhaps remeber we looked closely on the Azuree 40 the last time, we where only one night from signing the ready made contract. I do not regret that we did not and a new version might be interesting again. I am afraid though that they might make the silly misstake many yards do and make i 1203 cm instead of 1199cm, or 403 cm wide instead of 399 cm. Could mean a lot of extra costs - for instance the new greece cruising tax and harbour fees.

We always have had the philosophy that we should make the boat trips as enyoable for the whole family as possible. Now I am lucky and have a family that loves speed and high winds but still we need to have things to do when at anchor. Bikes, kites, windsurfers, inlines, TV are things that make us the only family in our social context that have a 16 year old son that is more than willing to sail all weekends from early april to end of spemteber, and 2 months every summer 

Regards,
Anders


----------



## PCP

*The futur Azuree 40*



JAndersB said:


> Yes, and the reason for me having the Opium 39 is of course that it by far is best in fullfilling all the different evaluating criterias we put on a boat.
> 
> But not all and that boat does not exist and probalby will never do either. But one should always keep an open mind
> 
> Also, those criterias change over time. And evaluation goes on in boat development.
> 
> As you perhaps remeber we looked closely on the Azuree 40 the last time, we where only one night from signing the ready made contract. I do not regret that we did not and a new version might be interesting again. I am afraid though that they might make the silly misstake many yards do and make i 1203 cm instead of 1199cm, or 403 cm wide instead of 399 cm. Could mean a lot of extra costs - for instance the new greece cruising tax and harbour fees.
> 
> ---
> 
> Regards,
> Anders


This new boat has nothing to do with the previous one, except the program. Regarding the existent model I really did not like too much the overall design (not referring to the type of boat) but what would put me away was a low AVS and a stability curve with not a good proportion between positive and negative stability. A boat that in my opinion should have more ballast to better those two aspects. A pity since the boat had a great interior.

Of course I only know what the lady from the Turkish shipyard (not dealer) had told me in Dusseldorf: That the 40 would be substituted soon by a Rob Humphreys that is known to make seaworthy boats.

Maybe you get lucky with the dimensions of the new boat. The Actual Azuree 40 has a hull with 11.99m a beam of 4.22m a draft of 2.6m and a B/D ratio of 25%. It is a bit better than on the Oceanis 38 given the bigger draft (same type of keel) but even so, low for a performance boat.

The Azuree 46 has a hull with 13.99, a beam almost identical to the 40fter (4.25m), the same draft, the same type of keel and a B/D ratio of 38%. That is a huge difference even considering that the 40' is proportionally more beamy.

I believe he will follow the same proportionality on the new Azuree 40 so you would have a 11.99m hull, if you are lucky 3.99 beam and also a comparable B/D ratio, one that will make the boat have a decent AVS a nice stability curve and that with a considerable hull form stability will gibe a very stiff and powerful boat. A very different boat regarding the actual one, except on the very good interior, I hope.

Regarding the dimensions you are absolutely right about the importance regarding price in marinas but not regarding the new Greek tax, at least in what regards visiting boats. I have been looking at it because I will sail there this year. In fact it is quite stupid since a boat with 13 meters can actually pay less than a boat with 11.99m that stay there for a month or too (boats between 7 and 12 meters have to pay for a year but boats with more than 12 meters can pay monthly).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JAndersB

*Re: The futur Azuree 40*



PCP said:


> This new boat has nothing to do with the previous one, except the program. Regarding the existent model I really did not like too much the overall design (not referring to the type of boat) but what would put me away was a low AVS and a stability curve with not a good proportion between positive and negative stability. A boat that in my opinion should have more ballast to better those two aspects. A pity since the boat had a great interior.
> 
> Of course I only know what the lady from the Turkish shipyard (not dealer) had told me in Dusseldorf: That the 40 would be substituted soon by a Rob Humphreys that is known to make seaworthy boats.
> 
> Maybe you get lucky with the dimensions of the new boat. The Actual Azuree 40 has a hull with 11.99m a beam of 4.22m a draft of 2.6m and a B/D ratio of 25%. It is a bit better than on the Oceanis 38 given the bigger draft (same type of keel) but even so, low for a performance boat.
> 
> The Azuree 46 has a hull with 13.99, a beam almost identical to the 40fter (4.25m), the same draft, the same type of keel and a B/D ratio of 38%. That is a huge difference even considering that the 40' is proportionally more beamy.
> 
> I believe he will follow the same proportionality on the new Azuree 40 so you would have a 11.99m hull, if you are lucky 3.99 beam and also a comparable B/D ratio, one that will make the boat have a decent AVS a nice stability curve and that with a considerable hull form stability will gibe a very stiff and powerful boat. A very different boat regarding the actual one, except on the very good interior, I hope.
> 
> Regarding the dimensions you are absolutely right about the importance regarding price in marinas but not regarding the new Greek tax, at least in what regards visiting boats. I have been looking at it because I will sail there this year. In fact it is quite stupid since a boat with 13 meters can actually pay less than a boat with 11.99m that stay there for a month or too (boats between 7 and 12 meters have to pay for a year but boats with more than 12 meters can pay monthly).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


You have no information when Azzuree will release the new 40 footer?

Regards
Anders


----------



## PCP

*Re: The futur Azuree 40*



JAndersB said:


> You have no information when Azzuree will release the new 40 footer?
> 
> Regards
> Anders


No and I was quite surprised since the 40ft is a recent boat. Probably this is not an outside information. I just liked the lady that was showing me the Azuree 46, she was speaking English, asked my nationality and in return I guessed rightly she was Turkish so after some more compliments regarding both countries and people we keep talking about the shipyard and when I said that the 46 was a great boat much better than the 40 she said that soon the 40 would be replaced by another 40 designed by the same designer of the big boat (Humphreys).

I manifested some surprise because what would be normal would be a MKII on the same hull and asked about that but she said no, that it would be a completely different boat. I guess that if they are not making a MKII the new boat should not took long. As you probably know they have been making new boat after new boat and a 40ft boat is a main piece on a boat series. I don't think they are selling the 40, at least in any meaningful numbers. I would say that the logic should point for a boat ready for the next Paris or Dusseldorf boat shows.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Surfing waves*

I posted this one another thread. Well, if you cannot surf waves with your boat maybe with this one?






This is interesting even if this model has more righting moment than the big one (huge draft) it gives an idea of the boat behavior. It would be very interesting if the boat was a scale mode: Kind of a natural "tank" for testing.


----------



## PCP

*Viko 30s*

Not long ago I posted about the Viko 30s a boat designed by Sergio Lupoli and made in Poland:



I had the opportunity to see the boat in Dusseldorf...and it looks good. The finish is nothing special but I would say average but the design is great and the price is incredible. Lots of small boats made in Poland but generally with not with interesting designs. If I was starting sailing or if I had not much money but wanted a modern coastal cruiser....well, I would look to this one seriously: A lot of boat for the money and some sailing fun too.







The wheel really looks odd on this boat but there is a version with tiller that makes more sense.











http://www.navikom.pl/index_en.php?id=10&prod=vikos30#vikos30


----------



## PCP

*Italia 15.98*

Some more images of this new modern classic beauty by Italia Yachts:


----------



## PCP

*Marc-Oliver von Ahlen and evolution in contemporary hull design.*

Under the perspective of overall efficiency regarding a modern hull and its continuous evolution towards a better performance and again about Marc-Oliver von Ahlen designs, it is very interesting to compare that beautiful classic coastal cruiser recent design that I have posted recently, this one:



With an older one by the same NA and look at the differences in what regards that evolution in what regards hull efficiency:



Both have already modern efficient keels and rudders and being classic boats the hull has to be compromised in what regards pure efficiency since the aesthetic factor is a major one here but as we can see, without compromising the looks the hull of the last design (first picture) is a more efficient one, more in line with what that hull would have been if the aesthetic factor was not a major one.

We can see also that the overall looks were not compromised:



That's what makes a great design

In what regards hulls not compromised by that type of factors and that therefore are designed mostly with performance in mind we can look at two designs from the same NA separated by some years and with about the same program (performance cruisers) and look at the hull evolution towards an overall better sailing performance.

Look at the differences:







And that is on line with the last year's evolution as it can be seen on the work of all top Nas: Both boats have modern rudders and keels but we can see that the bulb on the last boat is a more elongated one and that the last boat has a two rudders set-up with two wheels (only one on the previous boat).

We can also see that the 60ft is proportionally slightly beamier and most of all has the beam pulled aft. That difference in beam is relevant since the last one is a bigger boat and bigger boats are normally proportionally less beamier than smaller ones.

Aesthetically the boat also features the modern tendency for very low cabins (as we could saw here on many boats, including the Wally, or the new big Hanse) being the illumination (lot's of it) made through port hulls or Zenithal.

All these designs are not very separated in time, a decade at most and we can see clearly the design evolution. Decidedly a very interesting Na, Marc-Oliver von Ahlen and one that follows closely contemporary design evolution that it is faster now than never before.


----------



## PCP

*Viko 30s*



bjung said:


> Yacht was not impressed.
> "Not much more than pretty pretend"
> Viko S22: Nicht viel mehr als schöner Schein - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
> "Sobering results"
> Kleinkreuzertest: Viko S22: ernüchternde Ergebnisse - Service*|*YACHT.DE
> Not only a poor performer, but also plenty to complain about in what regards finish quality and technical solutions. The cabin also flooded during a heeling test.


You seem not to have understood but thanks for your contribution that reinforces what I have said: Robelz was talking about a test with another Viko not the Viko 30s. The Same magazine that tested that Viko 22 says that the Viko 30s is a completely different boat and that they were surprised with it.

What yacht de says about the Viko 30s compared with the previous line of fat Vikos is this:

"At the stand of the Polish shipyard, a surprise awaits visitors: *beautiful lines instead of the current maximum space efficiency*. You have to look twice to realize that it really is a new Viko, because the sailboats of the Polish shipyard have been noticed by compromise sailing regarding interior space.They normally have a big freeboard: The Vikos belong to the type of boats that are currently being built in the small cruiser segment and the best. The Poles have their market share in Germany by offering boats not compromised by a reasonable price.

*The Viko 30S is significantly less voluminous than the previous models, is designed with harmonious deck lines and it looks absolutely chic*.

Regarding the price, the Poles want to score: 29.900 euros for a 31-foot sailboat, is very good. That would be actually sensational. So what's going on? Germany importer André explains the design change of paradigm: "The shipyard plans to establish a second line, so the change on style. The 30S is a design by the Italian Sergio Lupoli, who also works for Comar Yachts."

*Strictly speaking, the Viko 30S is the same design as the Comet 31s, but it has been modified in many details of Viko: "The shipyard has invested heavily in the future and a 35s, 40s and even 50s will follow." The previous old type of small voluminous boats will continue to be produced in parallel as a second line."*

Viko Yachts: Hanseboot-Premiere VIII: Viko 30S - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE

Please Robelz put an end to this and tell us to what Viko's boat test you were referring (30s?) when you said this:



robelz said:


> Well, YACHT magazine called the VIKO the worst boat they've ever tested...


The way you said it, after a post about the Viko 30s, it gives the idea you were referring to a test on that boat and not a previous test on one of the fat boats, that they had already said it is a completely different line, being the Viko 30s the first of a new series.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Wally Saudade going fast*

A wally with a Portuguese name and one of those words that is pretty untranslatable in other languages and marks one of the feelings of the Portuguese as a culture.

Saudade is truly a beautiful boat as most Wally are, a 145ft Tripp Design for the NA, a Eidsgaard Design for the exterior and interior. It features a torpedo lifting keel to have an accessible draft without hurting sail performance.


----------



## PCP

*Owen and Clarke and the Wally cento class.*

Owen and Clarke helped to create the class but his design did not find a client yet. I liked it a lot as I have appreciated the studies (that I will share here) that lead to the choice of that hull shape that is basically the same used by the other wally cento but beamier. The wally cento are wally cruisers more oriented for performance and have racing as an important part of their design program.

With time we would have a look at the difference between these boats in what regards hull design, but they are not big. This seems to be the best hull shape for this size and boat characteristics (with some differences in beam) that have as basis a top performance cruiser, not a full racer.

The Owen and Clarke wally cento:







Fascinating this study. I hope someone will have the boat built to see if the VPP predictions are close to reality and if this beamier boat (than the other wally cento) is really faster in more conditions than the existent wally cento fleet.

The study:
*
Having worked on the design of the new Cento since the rule's inception it is clear that because of her overall length and high sail area displacement ratio the Cento is a very different yacht to previous Wallys. She is very fast and this effectively draws the apparant wind to forward of the beam in almost all conditions. Although Wally are classifying her as racer-cruiser her performance potential because of her combination of waterline length and displacement are clear. ....

It's all very well having a light boat with a large sail area to provide performance, but the yacht has to have the stability to match or one will be be sailing with mainsail twisted/reefed and be unable to take advantage of the power available.

At the other end of the scale, a maximum beam hull will be inefficient unless its form stability is being used a large percentage of the time. Just how will the Wally Cento's sail since they don't have water ballast and when will they reach maximum heel and at what wind speed? One of our Wally Cento designs has been computer modelled with the maximum sail permitted sail area and the results are shown below. In terms of performance the Wally Cento is sailing in displacement mode in the greyed out area and exceeding her hull speed elsewhere..*



*The table below illustrates just how often the apparent wind is forward of the beam, the inevitable conclusion here is that the Wally Cento is 'hungry' for stability even off the wind when designed with the maximum sail area and at the minimum displacement.

What this also means is that because the wind is drawn forward to such an extent this stability is in use more often than heavier displacement or shorter waterline yachts - the kind of yachts the IRC rule was designed for. This is one of the reasons we believe why IRC treats lighter, more powerful designs more leniently after 60'.The stability that is penalized is effective for a higher % percentage of the time, as is the light displacement because the yachts are also effectively sailing outside their displacement mode for a greater % of the time.*



*The performance over several different inshore courses have been evaluated in a range of conditions for two boats, one of maximum beam and one of minimum beam. For this exercise both yachts had the same sail area and displacement. The relative speed of the two designs is illustrated in the table below where speed differences in seconds per mile are shown at a range of wind angles and wind speeds. The numbers in red indicate where the wider boat is slower and the black where the wider boat is faster.*



*It seems clear from the numbers that we have seen that the Owen Clarke Wally Cento will be an exciting, exhilarating boat to sail with performance potential well in excess of the current Wally fleet. Fully powered up in eight knots of wind even without a Code 0, the boat will have no fear of light airs and with twin rudder control fast reaching and running in higher speeds will be controllable to an extent unheard of on its single-rudder predecessors.

Just as twin rudder designs were a revelation to most sailors in the first Volvo 70 VOR when the single rudder Farr designs were relegated to 'also rans,' the advantages of this type of yacht can be experienced when sailing as part of the Wally fleet or in other races against other IRC designs.

When combined with the latest sail handling techniques, equipment and design, the sail area of the new rigs will be easier than ever to harness and control. Developments in the grand prix and short-handed racing world in terms of top down furling spinnakers and especially furling code sails/gennakers will power the yacht at the high apparent wind angles it will be sailing at most of the time.

Wally have elected to place the Cento firrmly in the racing division with a speed potential far higher than their designs of the past. A fresh approach is called for to take advantage of the situation. Indeed the Cento falls squarely at the high performance end of yacht design, an area that Owen Clarke Design excel in. In partnership with Design Unlimited and KandK Superyachts we have a team that has the capabilities to produce a very special as well as a winning yacht.*

Wally Cento - IRC High Performance Superyacht : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects


----------



## PCP

*Viko 30s, the first of a new series, a change in paradigm.*

This is boring. This is all about interpretation and about English and logic. I hope this settles the matter because what have been said on that article from Yacht is very clear.



bjung said:


> No, Paulo, I understood just fine, and my post was not reinforcing your comments, quite the contrary. Maybe YOU do not understand !? I was referring to, as the subject line clearly states, the Viko S22, designed by Sergio Lupoli (same designer as the S30 ), the FIRST of a new line.....


Maybe you don't know but it is not the designer that chose the type of boat that he is going to make for a shipyard. It is the shipyard that tells the designer what kind of boat they want. The fact that the designer of the 22 is the same of the 30 does not mean they are the same type of boat. The freeboard of the 22 is just huge as it is commented on the Yacht de article about the Viko 30s.



bjung said:


> For accuracy's sake, the article you quoted never mentions that the S30 is a completely different boat than the S22, as you claim. It mentions, however, that the S30 is different from the previous high freeboard, voluminous line of boats (which will remain in production ).... the Viko S22...the FIRST of a new line.


Are you kidding? or maybe you don't know that the Viko 30s is a more recent model than the 22:

"At the stand of the Polish shipyard, *a surprise* awaits visitors: *beautiful lines instead of the current maximum space efficiency*. *You have to look twice to realize that it really is a new Viko*, because the sailboats of the Polish shipyard* have been noticed by compromise sailing regarding interior space*.*They normally have a big freeboard*: ....

"*The Viko 30S is significantly less voluminous than the previous models*, it is designed with harmonious deck lines and it looks absolutely chic.

.. *So what's going on*? Germany importer André explains the design change of paradigm: "*The shipyard plans to establish a second line, so the change on style*...The shipyard has invested heavily in the future and a *35s, 40s and even 50s will follow*." *The previous old type of small voluminous boats *will continue to be produced in parallel as a second line."

It cannot be more clear: The previous boats have all a big freeboard, including the 22, you just need to look at it below:



this one is different, in the words of Yacht.de, a surprise, dificult to identify with the previous boats (including the 22) significantly less voluminous with beautiful lines, looking chick.

On the words of the German importer quoted by Yacht it is said: "The shipyard *plans* to establish a second line, *so the change on style*" that is pretty clear. That is a plan not something that had happened already with the 22 (that is one of the voluminous high freeboard boats) and continued with the 30s but something *that happened now*, not in the past and then he tells about the new boats from that new series: the 30s, a 35, a 40 and even a 50, that's *why they talk of a change of paradigm with the 30, not something that had happened in the past.*



bjung said:


> and presents a second line of production designed by Sergio Lupoli, just as the S22, the first of the line, I humbly posted about.
> The same designer, the same builder, the same building, the same line of production...
> ....


What you say, regarding the 22 to be the first of a line that includes the 30 and the bigger boats has no support in what had been said. Quite the contrary the 30s is presented as a surprise, a change of paradigm, a boat much less voluminous then all previous boats and the beginning of a new series.

Viko Yachts: Hanseboot-Premiere VIII: Viko 30S - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*The first real boat test with the Dufour 310*

And surprisingly the ones I saw first are Italian ones but not surprisingly the one from Giornalle de la Vela is much better than the previous one.

The boat was sailed with a bit more wind, 10 to 13K on some occasions but mostly with weaker winds. With 10/13K the boat works perfectly on the configuration of main and small self taking jib offering a very good sail performance.

On this configuration, predictably, with very weak winds, the boat will need a code 0 to sail at a good speed (as has confirmed by the other test). On this one the boat confirms the very good impression I had regarding this hull that is just sweet.











The test results are very good. I will only translate what they say regarding sail performance. For the rest you can buy the magazine

Avventura, grandi velisti, test e grandi eventi: è VELA di marzo! | Sail magazine - sailing news - regattas - Cruise

*"The wind left to be desired but at noon a breeze appeared, between 10 and 13 knots in the channel between Portovenere and Palmaria . We begin to tack upwind to measure the speed : 6.5 average and when the gusts puffed the boat accelerated rapidly touching 7 knots remaining easy on the rudder , without risking broaching and maintaining the course without the need for corrections on the ruder that does its duty even though it is not particularly deep.

The boat heels slightly over its chine and even in what regards changing direction the boat has a good performance , the hull comes out of the tack and accelerates quickly to a good pace .

On a beam reach we got 7 knots. We did not have aboard the asymmetrical : nevertheless even without one downwind the boat maintains a good pace : 6.5 knots. "

*


----------



## PCP

*Jpk 10.10*

While we wait for the first JPK 10.80 movie, a nice one with a new JPK 10.10 sailed by a couple. First sail is always a great moment in any new boat and this one was just a nice sail for the first day out:


----------



## Jeff_H

MrPelicano said:


> Speaking of boats, I'll be supplementing my Laser racing program with a full season of J/70 racing, out here in LIS. I was granted a reprieve by the governor when a second J/70 gig fell into my lap (or inbox, if you will). I've seen the J/70 up close but have not sailed one yet. I suspect it will not be quite as physically demanding as the Melges 24 I'm accustomed to sailing (or the Laser, for that matter), but given how large the fleets are it should be a great one-design boat. And doing bow on these sportboats is pretty much the same, and a lot easier than doing bow on 40-50 footers. Looking forward to the respite from physical punishment (on non-Laser weekends).


I find myself in the same boat, so to speak only down here on the Chesapeake. The skipper that I have sailed with for the past 11 years in the Wed. Night races has traded in her J-22 for a J-70. I too have seen these boats up close, but have yet to sail one. It looks like a good fleet but it also sounds like a steep learning curve described as a blend between a J-105 and a Melges 24, a mix that I can't quite imagine having raced both.

Jeff


----------



## MrPelicano

Jeff_H said:


> I find myself in the same boat, so to speak only down here on the Chesapeake. The skipper that I have sailed with for the past 11 years in the Wed. Night races has traded in her J-22 for a J-70. I too have seen these boats up close, but have yet to sail one. It looks like a good fleet but it also sounds like a steep learning curve described as a blend between a J-105 and a Melges 24, a mix that I can't quite imagine having raced both.
> 
> Jeff


If you've sailed M24's then you won't have any problem with the J/70. Indeed, you'll be surprised that you're not in major pain at the end of the day, from not being draped over the lifelines for 4 hours (YMMV depending on the amount of chop you sail in).

In addition to M24s (and J/105s) I've raced M20's on occasion, and I suspect that's pretty close to the J/70 experience, albeit probably more weight sensitive. Lots of J/70 video on YouTube should give you a good idea of the drill. Legs out hiking but nothing aggressive, weight placement important, etc.

Was supposed to go out this weekend but I'm told there's no access to the ramp yet due to snow. Guess plowing wasn't a priority for the club this month. Probably going to screw up Laser racing on Sunday, as well.


----------



## bobperry

I think minor performance differences aside the draw of the J70 will be fleet size.
How many boats for a typical LIS J70 start? We don't have anything out here that races with the numbers I suspect you have.


----------



## MrPelicano

bobperry said:


> I think minor performance differences aside the draw of the J70 will be fleet size.
> How many boats for a typical LIS J70 start? We don't have anything out here that races with the numbers I suspect you have.


Bob - Agreed, and several people sailing J/70's have told me the same thing. Not entirely sure what the fleet sizes will be in LIS - at KWRW and Charleston, J/70's have been the dominant fleets, with more than 60 boats. Owner of my ride told me he expects 40+ at the Cedar Point YC Sportboat Regatta, which is only in its second year of existence. Expect a similar turnout at Sail Newport and Marblehead NOOD, later in the season. Apparently J/Boats is still selling them faster than they can build them, which in this economy is nothing short of remarkable. Frankly, no other class in LIS - aside from Lasers and 420s - is drawing anything remotely like those numbers, so perhaps this will revitalize things a bit.

Pity that IRC and HPR aren't generating more interest, but the money just isn't here right now, I suspect. No good reason to drop serious coin on a new IRC performance cruiser or a Carkeek 40 if you can use your walking around money to buy a J/70 and race against 40+ boats (and only out of pocket for two Cat 3's).


----------



## bobperry

40+ boats on the starting line will be exiting. I'd enjoy that myself.


----------



## Edward3

Jeff, really hard to compare a J/105 to a J/70. I agree with the analogy of transferring the comparison with the Melges 24 on the fast side. The two are closely matched when running and making the decision to head up in the puffs to get on plane.
The J/80 on the slow side by about 5 knts TWS before they can get up on plane.
The 70 is just another 22' going to weather and will have there hands full against a well sailed 24 and 80.
There has been a lot of talk with the technical team and the 70's possible crew weight restrictions (640-680 lbs) and max crew number (5) and what is right for the boat. Also boat weight is now coming into play and trying to define there differences between builders. Headsail material choice will remain Dacron. I do like the no support boat rule - only a limited number of teams can afford the luxury of high speed tows. Class rules are self-regulating.


----------



## MrPelicano

As one who has read every single page and post of this thread... some pages/posts several times... I can say that I will sorely miss it. I have learned a tremendous amount about yacht design and the latest trends in high performance sailing. I've enjoyed literally hours of exciting and informative video, been directed to all manner of interesting sailing-related sites, and met some very friendly and helpful individuals.

All of my life I've been a racing sailor and I can count on one hand the number of times I've been on a boat when racing/practicing wasn't the exclusive focus. But since discovering this forum, I've become much more interested in and enticed by the idea of actually cruising, more specifically, "performance cruising" - i.e., cruising on boats where I wouldn't have to sacrifice my passion for speed and handling for a few creature comforts like pressurized hot water and a real galley.

Sure, I've raced on performance cruisers like the J/109, Elan 40, Express 37, and Santa Cruz 52, as well as some custom boats, but the idea of actually cruising them never occurred to me until I started spending a lot of time on "Interesting Boats". Now it's all I think about (when I'm not thinking about racing) and I'm pretty sure it's going to be my future passion.

So thanks very much, Paulo, and to everyone else who has contributed so much to this terrific conversation. Sorry it had to end like this, but sometimes it's just time to move on.

Respectfully,

MrP


----------



## chall03

*Re: Interesting boat thread:*



PCP said:


> This "hypocrite smarmonizer ass" is given up. This thread is officially under a new management.
> 
> I wish good luck to all. It is no more fun for me to post here since the ambiance has changed; I don't like it, I cannot control it and since fun was the only thing that lead me to maintain this thread I will move elsewhere.
> 
> I don't hold anybody responsible, this is a public forum and this thread was kind of odd, kind of Paulo's thread, as many have called it, but only because the members of this forum wished and allowed that to be the case.
> 
> That changed, the thread ambiance become aggressive to me. I explained the situation to the forum management, previewing correctly what was going to happen and my intention to give up and change my work on this thread (as it was) to a personal blog, if it was not possible to find a solution that restored the cordial ambiance around here. It seems that Andrews had tried but it did not work out. Thank's for your effort.
> 
> I am not even complaining about the forum management, it's their forum but this was an unusual situation on an unusual thread that had over 1500 hits a day and one that was widely appreciated out of sailnet (many become members of sailnet to participate on this thread and many others only followed this thread without being members yet).
> 
> It was to the management to decide what they wanted or not for this thread and what they could or could not due to preserve it like it was, knowing that it takes to somebody (in this case me) some knowledge and a lot of work to maintain it like that and running.
> 
> A special thanks to the ones that contributed and made this thread with me especially to the ones that tried to maintain it like it was, to those that someone called Paulo's troops: Erick, Anders and Mr Pelicano that are also among the best contributors. I guess that it was for that they were called my troops. This was their thread too.
> 
> I made many friends here and I hope that they will maintain that friendship. If they need something from me they can send me a PM or they will find me on other boat threads were I post occasionally under the name of Polux. I will not be following permanently this thread anymore, or being around much on Sailnet, even if I can post occasionally here from time to time.
> 
> A last explanation: The pictures I posted on this forum (and thread) may have an erratic behavior, appearing and disappearing. I use photobucket to post photos. That is a free site providing the photos are not viewed extensively. Mines are, so it is not free anymore for me and even to maintain old pictures I have to pay. As you can understand it does not make sense to pay for something I don't feel like mine anymore. However as I will use photobucket in the future (on next fall and winter) they will be active then.
> 
> You can see some more about all this and the future of this thread, as it was before, here:
> 
> Interesting Sailboats
> 
> Best regards to all,
> 
> Paulo


Paulo - This saddens me.

I do hope you will in time reconsider. As you know on forums, even in fantastic threads like this there is sometimes silliness and the clashing of egos and ideas. I believe this thread, _unlike_ many others is bigger than all of that though, and could continue happily in the manner it has been so successfully going.

I agree that this is a unique thread, this to me is undeniably _your_ thread and it has been a great one.

I therefore do feel there is a bit of an unwritten gentlemens code here, a respect for you as the driving force and OP of this thread. In the same way that I wouldn't go and hijack Smack's BFS thread and make it about watermakers. What has always also added to this thread is the subsequent discussion that has accompanied your posts, I believe you will miss that discussion in a blog format, and we will all be a bit poorer for it.

As an Australian I also have appreciated the European perspective you bring. Oz is I would say more influenced by European yacht designs that North American, and you have always provided a nice balance.

If you do not reconsider your decision then thankyou for a great thread, fair winds and following seas.


----------



## PCP

*Thanks!!!*

For you all, thank you!

Regarding what Chall had said regarding an European perspective that was never the intention of this thread. Obviously I have a better knowledge about what is going on here even if today's world is a small one and I don't think we can talk about European, NZ or American boat design. The best and bigger US cabinets like Farr, Reichel & Pugh, Farr and the best Oceania cabinets like ker design boats to everywhere, more to Europe than any other place simply because the Europeans have the biggest sailboat market. That's where more sailboats are sold and sailed.

Things seem to start changing and Asia is growing fast in what regards sailing and that will certainly will be very good not only for sailing but particularly to Australia and Oceania Nas.

Contemporary design (that some call cutting edge and I prefer state of the art design) is a Universal design and even with some differences that have more to do with a bigger percentage of boats being designed for solo sailing/racing while others more for crewed sailing/racing, than anything else.

Even if I had hoped that most of the state of the Art American boats and Oceania boats to be posted on this thread by local members the fact is that it was me that have posted about them so in the end I don't think you can call it an European perspective.

Regarding American boats, besides Jboats that have an iconic value in what regards American race boats and performance cruisers, things seem to be changing and American top designers have found more work on their own country designing what I hope would be the great American boats of the future. Iconic american brands like Hinckley and C&C are proposing state of the art boats designed by American Na:






C&C Yachts - Styles change, people change, boats change.

Lets hope they will find enough market in the States and that Americans will turn to sailing, cruising and racing again with the same vitality that showed in the past. They have state of the art American boats to do that if they want and certainly they will have much more if there is a market for it. The biggest difference between America and Europe is the size of the boat market. the boats more sold in America are the same boats that are more sold in Europe: Beneteau and Jeanneau.

Regarding your suggestion to rethink my options and continue this thread the way I had been doing, probably you don't know that I have tried, I have tried for a long time to find a way with the moderators to continue to run this thread the way it made it an unique success on sailnet.

Fact is that I tried several times and I did not get any answers that allowed it to be run without becoming a confrontational thread, with rude language and disagreeable for me. Yes I know that it was a very small number of people, some that even say that they don't follow this tread, but that is the reality of an open thread where if not stopped a single person can destroy a thread that is popular, agreeable and informative for hundreds.

Regarding the blog, yes you are right, I will miss the contribution of others and the discussion, so it will be a different blog, kind of a thread moderated by me. I will re-post on the main Body of the blog contributions and comments from all others that want to contribute to what is being discussed and I will be very interested in new subjects and interesting sailboats brought to my attention by others. I will re-post that too.

Of course, rude comments, coarse language, wise cracks and out of the subject comments will be sent to were they belong: garbage.

You are more then welcome to participate. You all are.

It started already. Just click on the link on the end of this post.

The best to all.

Paulo


----------



## guitarguy56

*Re: Thanks!!!*



PCP said:


> For you all, thank you!
> 
> Lets hope they will find enough market in the States and that Americans will turn to sailing, cruising and racing again with the same vitality that showed in the past. They have state of the art American boats to do that if they want and certainly they will have much more if there is a market for it. The biggest difference between America and Europe is the size of the boat market. the boats more sold in America are the same boats that are more sold in Europe: Beneteau and Jeanneau.
> 
> Regarding your suggestion to rethink my options and continue this thread the way I had been doing, probably you don't know that I have tried, I have tried for a long time to find a way with the moderators to continue to run this thread the way it made it an unique success on sailnet.
> 
> Fact is that I tried several times and I did not get any answers that allowed it to be run without becoming a confrontational thread, with rude language and disagreeable for me. Yes I know that it was a very small number of people, some that even say that they don't follow this tread, but that is the reality of an open thread where if not stopped a single person can destroy a thread that is popular, agreeable and informative for hundreds.
> 
> Regarding the blog, yes you are right, I will miss the contribution of others and the discussion, so it will be a different blog, kind of a thread moderated by me. I will re-post on the main Body of the blog contributions and comments from all others that want to contribute to what is being discussed and I will be very interested in new subjects and interesting sailboats brought to my attention by others. I will re-post that too.
> 
> Of course, rude comments, coarse language, wise cracks and out of the subject comments will be sent to were they belong: garbage.
> 
> You are more then welcome to participate. You all are.
> 
> The best to all.
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,

Glad you're back with us... I was a silent reader on your thread and loved reading the articles and videos on new boats especially the European sector of manufacturing as they seem to be cutting edge in this field and regard you as the intellectual tour de force regarding this thread! It's too bad there seems to be bias by the moderators and as yet have not removed the offending posts... that tells all.

Nevertheless glad you are back and looking forward to some more intelligent discussions of the latest in sailboats and less childish behavior by others.

Chao


----------



## sonosail

*Re: RC 44 Series*

Impressive. 
The difference is, the AC boats would have never raced in that much wind.


----------



## Faster

Paulo.. We thank you for your efforts here on this and other threads, and wish you the best in continuing your blog as you and others enjoy your passion for this topic. The door will always be open to you, as they say, should you see your way to returning.

But folks, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater..

We understood Paulo's requests but we cannot moderate any particular thread in a manner which affords any member unique privileges that are not afforded the other members, nor can we quash any members' basic rights in a public forum. Backchannel efforts were made to attempt to restore decorum but they ultimately failed. (Truth be told, they blew up in our faces)

While it's unlikely that others have the inclination to spend the enormous time and effort Paulo put into this, there's no reason why this thread can't continue is some form, hopefully in the spirit of its original intent.


----------



## robelz

JPK
JPK about the first race against new A35 and Sun Fast 3600...


----------



## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> JPK
> JPK about the first race against new A35 and Sun Fast 3600...


It looks like their verdict is very clear: The JPK 1080 is fast. Very fast. In fact, very, very fast. 

To summarize the blog regatta round-up: On the delivery trip from Lorient to Trinité, in breeze topping out around 30 knots, the JPK was planing smoothly and consistently under Code 5 at speeds of 12-16 knots, topping out at 17.92 knots. Smiles from ear-to-ear among the crew of 8.

Saturday's first race of the regatta saw 12-15 knots and the JPK 1080 was lined up in IRC 2 against the Jeaneau Sunfast 3600, the new Archambault 35 and a host of other top boats. The JPK and SF3600 are leading at the last leeward mark rounding before the SF3600 either luffs hard or broaches (not entirely clear) with the kite up, dropping both boats from 1-2 down to 3-4 at the finish. In race two, the JPK settles down and wins the race.

For race 1 on Sunday, the breeze is up to 16-20 knots, and everyone is switching from medium to heavy jibs. In these conditions, the JPK is really showing her speed, hanging right up with the J122 and Archambault 40 in IRC 1. Unfortunately, one-third of the way up the windward leg the jib halyard block explodes, forcing them to drop the jib to the deck, rig a snatch block, and re-hoist. By this time they've dropped to the back - too bad, since they'd chosen the right side of the course. However, they managed to work their way back to finish only a minute behind in real time. Thus, even in the worst-case scenario, the boat still performs very well.

For race 2 the chop is strong and it's necessary to find a spot among the IRC 1 boats on the start line. The JPK gets off at the lower end of the line and is forced to go further left than they wanted, as the right side appeared favored. Both the SF3600 and the A35 are also caught out to the left, and everyone overstands the layline. Ultimately, the jib halyard lets go in the clutch going upwind and this allows the competition to get away, leaving the JPK to finish in third place.

In summary, the boat goes fast; indeed, very fast, because even without having any of the calibrations established, the JPK was still battling at the front of the fleet. One must also consider the fact that they were using a borrowed 2011 mainsail from an M34, pending the arrival of their new Ullman main! So all in all, everyone went home very satisfied indeed.

MrP: Very impressive indeed, particularly the fact that they were hanging with the J122 and A40 upwind (assuming those boats are being sailed close to their numbers). If you're in IRC 2 and going upwind in the thick of IRC 1, you're going quick. And downwind in those conditions you should be able to smoke most of the IRC 1 boats. Looks like another winner from JPK.


----------



## MrPelicano

Usually when we are talking about adventure yachts for high latitude sailing, we are focused on French-built aluminium boats of 13M or more. Here is a video about UK sailor Roger Taylor's "new" junk-rigged Corribee 21 "Mingming 2", which he uses for extended voyaging in the high northern latitudes.






This thread's focus on performance cruisers might make one question why such a boat should be included here. But listen to Taylor's discussion of his modifications to the boat and to the junk rig, undertaken precisely to increase its performance in the typical lighter wind conditions encountered in the northern latitudes during peak cruising season. He estimates that the addition to the boat's waterline length and increases to the camber in the junk sail panels, will yield as much as 1 to 1.25 knots of increased average speed over the course of 24 hours, resulting in as much as 1,500 more miles of potential cruising range over his typical 67-70 day voyages.

Such a boat represents a very compelling option for those who desire to explore the higher latitudes but who lack the budget for a fully-fitted, aluminium-hulled adventure yacht. Obviously, you will forgo some creature comforts, but "Mingming 2" is able to carry food for up to 100 days, and presumably adequate water for the length of voyage Mr. Taylor usually makes. Very interesting indeed.


----------



## SloopJonB

You forgot to mention that you have to be nuts as well.


----------



## causeway

Can someone post up the URL of Paulo's blog?

I'm sure there will be a lot of interest.

I do hope this thread doesn't die, I've been reading it for so long and have learned so much.

It's the best boat porn I've got.


----------



## Faster

causeway said:


> Can someone post up the URL of Paulo's blog?
> 
> I'm sure there will be a lot of interest.
> 
> I do hope this thread doesn't die, I've been reading it for so long and have learned so much.
> 
> It's the best boat porn I've got.


It's at the bottom of post #6410, pg 641

Interesting Sailboats


----------



## causeway

Apologies!


----------



## Faster

causeway said:


> Apologies!


No worries!


----------



## robelz

Built in Poland, NA is Etienne Bertrand, will be a lot cheaper than the Pogo 3... Sexy as hell!

Galeria ?eglarska - Portal ?eglarski - Sailportal.pl ?eglarstwo ?agle Sail Sailing Sailnews Yachting Sprzedam jacht KWR ?wiadectwa NHC ORC Magazyn ?eglarski Szczecin regaty portal?eglarski Klub ?eglarzy Samotników ?winouj?cie Zapraszamy

(They will also make a cruising version of this Mini650...)


----------



## robelz

Far East 33: Marktoffensive aus Fernost - Yachten + Jollen | YACHT.DE

33' performance cruiser by Far East..


----------



## olavtaraldsen

PCP said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Odd that they mention nothing about the boat not having a traveler and how it sails without it. Maybe on the magazine they say something about that.
> 
> I am curious because Oluf is a great sailor and I it is hard for me to believe he would make a boat that could not be trimmed correctly. He had already used a boat with this type of main sail set up years ago on the 43DS.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The standard boat is delivered without traveler on all Luffe models. However, most buyers choose a removable traveler on the cockpit floor. The traveller is only 60 cm long (delimited by the narrow space) and enable you to trim the mainsail.

I have sailed the boat (#1) and it performes very well. Top speed 9.65 knots on flat water in a short windgust estimated 20-21 true wind.

Olav


----------



## robelz

Hmmm... This times the SF3600 had serious problems with the genoa halyard but managed to finish first overall. The A35 was 2 times 2nd and won the last 3 of 6 attempts.

JPK 10.80 disappoints with only one win and 3 times on place 4...

3ème Challenge de Printemps 2014 : inscrits et classements


----------



## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> Hmmm... This times the SF3600 had serious problems with the genoa halyard but managed to finish first overall. The A35 was 2 times 2nd and won the last 3 of 6 attempts.
> 
> JPK 10.80 disappoints with only one win and 3 times on place 4...
> 
> 3ème Challenge de Printemps 2014 : inscrits et classements


When I read the JPK blog account of the regatta, they made it pretty clear that the boat was fast and very competitive. What let them down were:

1. Jib block failure.
2. Jib clutch failure.
3. Borrowed 2011 mainsail from an M34.
4. No rig tuning / optimization.

When everything was working, they were up at the front, and sailing even with a J122 and A40 (IRC 1). Presumably when they get their new Ullman mainsail, fix the jib halyard issues, and tune the rig, the boat is going to be winning regattas.

As Paulo noted on his blog, the JPK 1080 is not really designed as a windward-leeward regatta boat, but as an offshore distance racer, with minimal crew. Of course, the same is true of the SF3600 and the A35. These three are all TransQuadra-type boats. What's really surprising is how poorly the MAT 1010 performed. Mark Mills totally understands IRC and that boat should have been in its element at this regatta.

All the same, the A35's made a good showing in IRC 2, as they should. They are a quick, well-sorted boat, and anyone who has been racing one for even a short time should have it dialed in.


----------



## robelz

MrPelicano said:


> When I read the JPK blog account of the regatta, they made it pretty clear that the boat was fast and very competitive. What let them down were:
> 
> 1. Jib block failure.
> 2. Jib clutch failure.
> 3. Borrowed 2011 mainsail from an M34.
> 4. No rig tuning / optimization.
> 
> When everything was working, they were up at the front, and sailing even with a J122 and A40 (IRC 1). Presumably when they get their new Ullman mainsail, fix the jib halyard issues, and tune the rig, the boat is going to be winning regattas.
> 
> As Paulo noted on his blog, the JPK 1080 is not really designed as a windward-leeward regatta boat, but as an offshore distance racer, with minimal crew. Of course, the same is true of the SF3600 and the A35. These three are all TransQuadra-type boats. What's really surprising is how poorly the MAT 1010 performed. Mark Mills totally understands IRC and that boat should have been in its element at this regatta.
> 
> All the same, the A35's made a good showing in IRC 2, as they should. They are a quick, well-sorted boat, and anyone who has been racing one for even a short time should have it dialed in.


If I am right the JPK blog dealt with an older race...


----------



## robelz

Nautic 370 Run: Federgewicht vom Plattensee - Galerie | YACHT.DE

YACHT tested the Nautic 370 run. Can't await to read the text.


----------



## robelz

The next edition of the AC is expected to be sailed with foiling cats at 62' with some OD parts...


----------



## Cruisingdad

If everyone wants to know what happened here, I will explain it.

Basically, we are dealing with two very hard-headed, stubborn, and very proud men who are passionate about what they know. However, they also have their own set of idiosyncrasies. One of them is that neither has any interest in backing down from a fight and stands behind their knowledge 100%. Unfortunately, when you get two people like that, who agree to disagree, the arguments take off exponentially. Neither did anything wrong, neither did anything right. They stood their ground instead of trying to find a way to be gentlemen about it and work it out. We tried to broker a deal but the terms were not something we could live with as moderators... so we had no real options from that point.

The reality is that we all like Paulo and do not want him to leave. He has done a fantastic job on this thread (and others) and the reality is that Paulo likes it here too. Same of course can be said of Bob. Bob didn't just study this stuff, he has done it all his life and has some of the top cruising boats ever penned to his name. He is an incredible resource to the community and has never hesitated to share that. It would be fantastic if they could BOTH find a way to see beyond their differences because that would make a good thread(s) fantastic. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case so we, as mods, have had to stand by and watch a slow motion train wreck that we were powerless to stop. Could we have banned or put them on forced ignore or kicked them off of each others respective threads? Sure... but we did not feel that was the right thing to do and would have made a bad situation worse. We are the opposite of heavy-handed here and instead try to keep things civil with compromises and reasoning with people. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Don't blame Paulo for this mess. Don't blame Bob. Blame them both or thank them both for what they have done. In fact, since I haven't said it: thank you both for what you have done here... but damn I wish you guys would find a way to shake hands.

Brian


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> Any body have more info or experience with the new Garcia 45. Looks like it will be competition to the boreal 44. Lights in the hull always make me nervous as does all that glass in the deck saloon but sure is pretty.


Three boats commissioned and already being built including the one for Jimmy Cornell makes it a sales success already. They are launching a new Garcia 50. Both boats use the the hulls of the Allures (45 and 51). Made a post about it days ago. The first boat will be lunched this Spring. They are making the interior.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## mikel1

If this were a bar . . . I'd buy the next round for the house . . .


----------



## chall03

PCP said:


> Three boats commissioned and already being built including the one for Jimmy Cornell makes it a sales success already. They are launching a new Garcia 50. Both boats use the the hulls of the Allures (45 and 51). Made a post about it days ago. The first boat will be lunched this Spring. They are making the interior.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I think I like....the doghouse is taking me a bit to get used to. The fact that Jimmy Cornell is a client has given them some attention for sure.

My 'win the lottery' boat has always been a Hallberg Rassy 48, I might add the Garcia in there as well.

Paulo your blog is looking fantastic.


----------



## bobperry

Yeah, I sent Paulo a PM saying the same thing.
The blog is beautiful. I promise not to muck it up.
Not that he'd let me.


----------



## PCP

chall03 said:


> I think I like....the doghouse is taking me a bit to get used to. The fact that Jimmy Cornell is a client has given them some attention for sure.
> 
> My 'win the lottery' boat has always been a Hallberg Rassy 48, I might add the Garcia in there as well.
> 
> Paulo your blog is looking fantastic.


Thanks Chall,

In fact Jimmy Cornell had chose Allures for his boat a long way back. He has been maintaining a collaboration with them, or better, Allures with him, in what regards sponsoring his books. I guess that the guys from Allures never expected that there was so many sailors (3) interested in a boat designed for high latitudes.

The Allures 45, that is the base for the Cornell boat have been a big sales success and his in fact a more overall balanced boat than the Exploration 45, better in more cruising situations and faster. I guess that in France there are lots of guys interested in going into the cold and not only, a friend of mine wants my collaboration in what regards a Northeast passage...I will give it to him on the condition of not going on that voyage The boat will be designed by Tony Castro.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## robelz

JPK 10.80, Archie A35 and Sun Fast 3600 met again at the 4ème Challenge de Printemps 2014.

This round goes to the Archie with six wins and three 2nd places in 10 races. I am a little bit disappointed by the JPK. I think they should have raced the new main sail!?

4ème Challenge de Printemps 2014 : inscrits et classements (IRC 2)


----------



## Sternik

bobperry said:


>


First thought that comes to my mine is a german Jollenkreuzer. This one here, build in 1928, is stunning. The boat above, not so.


----------



## bobperry

Yeah, that German boat is beautiful, Stunning? Maybe. But you know what they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and my client loves his boat. That was my goal. We were not trying to reproduce and antique, just the feel of some of the old boats.

I originally drew Frankie with a defined curve to the top part of the mast, like some of the square meter boats. But the sailmakers hated it. I liked the look though. I got voted down on that detail when we found a Farr 40 rig was almost identical to what I had drawn and there were two used Farr 40 masts available. In retrospect it was a very good decision.

Very interesting headstay struts on the German boat. I have not seen it quite like that before. Not much supporting the top of that mast athwartships.


----------



## Jeff_H

Sternik said:


> First thought that comes to my mine is a german Jollenkreuzer. This one here, build in 1928, is stunning. The boat above, not so.


That is a very neat picture. The curve in the upper portion of the rig reminds me of the Herreshoff S-Boats and 




some of the Skerry Cruisers (22 square meter class).


The curved upper mast was a fad which probably originates with Manfred Curry's research into aerodynamics in the early 20th century. Manfred Curry's research was pivotal in understanding the behavior of wings and sails. He had access to the Fokker wind tunnel and tested actual bird wings and metal sails to measure how they behaved. His book on sailing aerodynamics was widely read and raised the bar on the understanding of how sailboats worked. It was full of illustrations comparing bird wings to sails.



One of his main areas of research was on how to obtain the most efficient sail plan (drive to drag) with a fixed amount of sail area. He came up with a fractionally rigged sloop sail plan with a very large mainsail, with a curved masthead and a comparatively small headsail. He employed this on a number of designs the most famous of which probably was his J-Jolie boat.



While Curry's design was a sliding gunther, which permits the sail to be reefed, I have aways wondered what happens when you try to reef a rig like the S-Boat or a Skerry with their curved upper mainsails, when the curved portion of the sail hits the straight portion of the track.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Jeff:
I think that may have been one of the reasons the sailmakers were not keen on my rig.

When I look at those pics they look to me a bit like they are on their way to a square topped main. Under some rules the curved topmast was a way to gain some unmeasured sail area (British 12's).

Kim, my client owned a 30 sq. meter so he was well acquainted with the curved mast look. But in the end practicality and the cost of a used Farr 40 rig won the day. Like I said, it was probably a good decision. So far it's working nicely.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> I think that may have been one of the reasons the sailmakers were not keen on my rig.
> 
> When I look at those pics they look to me a bit like they are on their way to a square topped main. Under some rules the curved topmast was a way to gain some unmeasured sail area (British 12's).
> 
> Kim, my client owned a 30 sq. meter so he was well acquainted with the curved mast look. But in the end practicality and the cost of a used Farr 40 rig won the day. Like I said, it was probably a good decision. So far it's working nicely.


One of the things that has always amazed me about Curry was he was an 18 year old kid when he wrote his first monograph on the aerodynamics of sailing around 1917. (His first real book was roughly 7 year later and his best know book a few years later than that.) But even more amazing that that, was that he pretty much anticipated the large roach mainsail, slightly overlapping jib sail plan in his research.

His work was aimed at a series of development classes which restricted the area of the sail (including roach) to a fixed amount. His research was trying to come up with the most efficient sail shape for all points of sailing using a constant sail area. That shape came from his wind tunnel testing.

Which is not to say that other classes used the curved mast as a rule beater way of obtaining unrated sail area.

Curry was one of those guys who just was into science and invention. He is credited with developing the tapered full length batten, and the cam cleat. He is also credited with creating the recombant bicycle (both two and 4 wheel versions). He was a medical doctor and while some of his theories have been dismissed over time, I understand that much of his basic research has supposedly held up very well.

I think the Farr 40 rig was the right call even if the curved rig might have been slightly more elegant looking.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Jeff:
I had heard the name but that's it.
I love the look of the J boat. The main is damn near a wing sail profile. He was most certainly on the right track.


----------



## kimbottles

If you look at the way the Francis Lee was engineered and built you would see that she is not in any way a "new old boat". She is very modern in her design and construction. However she was not built to satisfy anyone except Bob and me. So it is perfectly OK if she does not appeal to you. No harm no foul. Cheers! Kim.


----------



## Sapwraia

bobperry said:


> Chall:
> I think what we want in our cruising boats is about a lot more than boat speed. You have to be able to go below and feel that you are in an environment that satisfies some subjective needs. I'm not sure the Pogo would do that for me. On the other hand I love fast boats that are a kick to sail so that part of the Pogo I can enjoy. Maybe I could get comfy below in no time. I'll probably never know. But it's very easy to bond with a boat that sails great.


On the basis that extended cruising involves long periods at anchor, the thing that irritates me as much as going too slow is a yacht that won't sit still. This can deplete the relaxation factor at times! Observing how a range of yachts behave in a large anchorage, this seems mainly to be a function of displacement and hull form ?

Seems that speed and good behaviour at anchor are a compromise (this assumes more than sufficient scope & chain etc.)


----------



## randyrhines

Can anyone identify this 26' sailboat I have looked all over the net and can't identify its maker


----------



## randyrhines

Help me identify this 26 sailboat


----------



## bobperry

Randy:
My guess is that the boat is home built.


----------



## SloopJonB

That boat has a beautifully fair hull - look at the reflections.

Too bad the same quality wasn't put into the design of the cabin top and the positioning of the ports.


----------



## randyrhines

Yeh I'm starting to thing it could be a home built, the closest I find might be a highly altered 1965 Bristol 27?


----------



## randyrhines

Here's another pic. I think it's too high quality fibreglass work for home built built like a tank


----------



## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> JPK 10.80, Archie A35 and Sun Fast 3600 met again at the 4ème Challenge de Printemps 2014.
> 
> This round goes to the Archie with six wins and three 2nd places in 10 races. I am a little bit disappointed by the JPK. I think they should have raced the new main sail!?
> 
> 4ème Challenge de Printemps 2014 : inscrits et classements (IRC 2)


Sunfast 3600 took the overall win, and looked pretty consistent - 1st and 2nd places, with the throwout being a 3rd in the final race. That 11th place and the three 4ths didn't help the A35's cause. However, it does say a lot about the people sailing the A35 that they're getting it dialed in pretty quickly. More quickly, it would appear, than JPK. And the MAT 1010 is truly a disappointment, particularly as this is exactly the kind of racing that boat was designed to excel in. Wonder what's going on with them.


----------



## jtsailjt

I happened across this boat when I recently visited the yard in Delaware where my boat is stored this winter. I kept walking by it and it definitely caught my eye even though my taste doesn't usually run to anything quite this modern looking, so I asked the marina owner about it. He said it was a custom build, designed with a kevlar sandwich hull designed to not be holed even if sailed into a reef at 6 knots. Who knows if it can actually do that but apparently it's a very ruggedly built hull and I found the listing on yachtworld to look at the pictures. I just bought a Tayana 47 and am happy with that so am not in the market for a boat, but if I was looking for a 50'-55' boat for long distance cruising, I'd want to take a really good look at this one. It's different, but I think interesting.

I tried to post a link but don't have enough posts to be allowed to do that yet so if you go on Yachtworld and look up an Atlantis 56' sloop in Delaware I'm sure you'll find it OK. What are your impressions?


----------



## bobperry

Jt:
That's a nice looking boat. But there are lots of nice looking boats. You own one that was designed by a good designer ( ahem). I hope you are enjoying your boat. Don't let fashion and fads distract you. The sea doesn't recognize fashion.


----------



## jtsailjt

bobperry said:


> Jt:
> That's a nice looking boat. But there are lots of nice looking boats. You own one that was designed by a good designer ( ahem). I hope you are enjoying your boat. Don't let fashion and fads distract you. The sea doesn't recognize fashion.


Absolutely great designer!  As you know, I loved my Nordic 44 when I had that and am looking forward to getting our Tayana back in the water about 6 weeks from now once my wife finishes school. It's been a long winter.

This Atlantis boat isn't quite my thing but I just thought it was very interesting and looked like a good value for someone searching for that sort of boat. I'd never ever hard of gimballed helmsmans seats before but they might be pretty nice!


----------



## robelz

MrPelicano said:


> Sunfast 3600 took the overall win, and looked pretty consistent - 1st and 2nd places, with the throwout being a 3rd in the final race. That 11th place and the three 4ths didn't help the A35's cause. However, it does say a lot about the people sailing the A35 that they're getting it dialed in pretty quickly. More quickly, it would appear, than JPK. And the MAT 1010 is truly a disappointment, particularly as this is exactly the kind of racing that boat was designed to excel in. Wonder what's going on with them.


I am confused. When I looked it up, there was a whole other ranking. The same Archie still has on its site with a dominant win for the A35: CHAMPIONNAT DE PRINTEMPS LA TRINITE SUR MER ( suite)


----------



## MrPelicano

robelz said:


> I am confused. When I looked it up, there was a whole other ranking. The same Archie still has on its site with a dominant win for the A35: CHAMPIONNAT DE PRINTEMPS LA TRINITE SUR MER ( suite)


Puzzling. I don't understand the discrepancy. If you go to the following page, and select IRC-2 from Résultats généraux, you get a different scoring, with the SF3600 taking the overall:

4ème Challenge de Printemps 2014 : inscrits et classements

On the above page, the A35 scoring is as follows:

4-(11)-4-4-1-1-1-2-1-1 = 19 pts

For the SF3600, the scoring is:

2-2-1-1-2-2-2-1-2-(3) = 15 pts

But the scoring on the A35 blog page is clearly different. Only the TSM race committee can explain why they are different.

Regardless, the A35 is clearly a fast boat and the JPK is still getting up to speed. No idea who is sailing the MAT 1010, so I won't comment on whether the boat is capable of winning with its rating, which I recall someone saying is rather harsh.


----------



## PCP

Take in consideration that the name is the same (4ème Challenge de Printemps) but there are 4 racing weekends (I think they are 4) so the results from each weekend are different.


----------



## donjuanluis

jtsailjt said:


> I happened across this boat when I recently visited the yard in Delaware where my boat is stored this winter. I kept walking by it and it definitely caught my eye even though my taste doesn't usually run to anything quite this modern looking, so I asked the marina owner about it. He said it was a custom build, designed with a kevlar sandwich hull designed to not be holed even if sailed into a reef at 6 knots. Who knows if it can actually do that but apparently it's a very ruggedly built hull and I found the listing on yachtworld to look at the pictures. I just bought a Tayana 47 and am happy with that so am not in the market for a boat, but if I was looking for a 50'-55' boat for long distance cruising, I'd want to take a really good look at this one. It's different, but I think interesting.
> 
> I tried to post a link but don't have enough posts to be allowed to do that yet so if you go on Yachtworld and look up an Atlantis 56' sloop in Delaware I'm sure you'll find it OK. What are your impressions?


If found that boat interesting indeed. 
2002 Atlantis Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> Take in consideration that the name is the same (4ème Challenge de Printemps) but there are 4 racing weekends (I think they are 4) so the results from each weekend are different.


Sure? I think it is just one weekend with 10 races.


----------



## PCP

robelz said:


> Sure? I think it is just one weekend with 10 races.


There are several "Challenge de Printemps" only the number changes (2th, 3th, 4th), one in each weekend.


----------



## robelz

PCP said:


> There are several "Challenge de Printemps" only the number changes (2th, 3th, 4th), one in each weekend.


Of course, but both refer to the 4eme..


----------



## mitiempo

Maybe not cutting edge interesting, but certainly strange. A new type of twin rudder design?


----------



## donjuanluis

mitiempo said:


> Maybe not cutting edge interesting, but certainly strange. A new type of twin rudder design?


I suppose it adds more drag, and much more steering force required in some conditions, in relation to what? stability? sea kindness?. I know nothing, thats why I suppose and ask.


----------



## jppp

Wouldn't the windward fin act like an elevator when heeled and lift or dive the stern?


----------



## bjung

*Re: Sly 43*

A nice video of the Sly 43. 




http://www.sly-yachts.com/en/sailing-yachts/sly-43
Sadly, linear galleys seem to be in the majority nowadays over 40ft.
It will be interesting to see, if the new owner of Dufour will incorporate some Italian styling into that brand as well.


----------



## outbound

On the other thread comment was made low freeboard center boarders may have an advantage in survival storms. Thinking was they could slide down the face of breaking waves. See the pogo series, the Garcias, and boreals not to mention the new grp dagger boarders made here as a new trend in modern sailboat design which is continuing . Beyond expense and complications would anyone care to comment on downside of this trend? Is the upside of less risk of broaching borne out in experience? Can we expect more new designs like this with bulbed fins going the way of full keels.


----------



## outbound

Would you folks care to have a go at the South Sea 61. The new Pacific Seacraft Bob designed. I got just got an email from PSC marketing the new boat. So she 's in production mode now.
Bob knows if I ever wanted and could go bigger it would be the first boat I would look at.


----------



## engineer_sailor

*Re: Sirius 32, Sirius 35*

Is the South Sea 61 basically a production version of Catari? I really like the ketch rig and dual cockpit exits both center and aft. Maybe it's just the ketch rig, but it caught my eye like the Cherubini I spotted on the hard in Rock Hall, MD last year.


----------



## bjung

*Re: Rosso 28*

A new daysailor, or should I say dayracer, Rosso 28. Is it just me , or are the offerings in the fast daysailor category getting more numerous all the time. 
Built in mahagony/ epoxy with fixed fin or lifting keel.




Boatyard "Chantier des Ileaux" - Noirmoutier, France - Modern wooden boat building / Rosso 28
The article can be read in Yacht.
Neuer Daysailer: Alternative zu Saffier, Tofinou & Co. - Service*|*YACHT.DE


----------



## MrPelicano

kimbottles said:


> I thought C&C was Canadian.......


Canadian firm, during their prime, they're currently based in the "province" of Rhode Island, as part of U.S. Watercraft. But it's common practice, both in the U.S. and elsewhere, to conflate Canada as part of the U.S. 

Well, probably not in Canada....

Similarly, the Irish would not be amused to be lumped in with the UK, considering how many hundreds of years it took them to rid themselves of colonial rule. Mills is an American, based in County Wicklow, possibly taking advantage of Ireland's generous tax incentives for business. I'm guessing it's not because of the weather.

Farr is often referred to as a U.S. design firm, even through Bruce Farr isn't an American. Given their scope, it would probably be more accurate to call them a global design firm. But, of course, their HQ is in Annapolis, MD, which technically makes them a U.S. firm, I suppose.

I guess the sailing industry is a lot like the Americas Cup - everyone is from everywhere and "national" labels are primarily for marketing and tax purposes.

NOTE: I don't have any sales data in front of me, but it's quite likely that C&C's primary market was the United States, which would make them, in certain respects, a "U.S. brand" - charismatic or otherwise. But certainly there was great pride among Canadians when C&C boats turned up at major North American regattas and kicked butt on U.S. and U.K. designed boats. I don't think I've ever sailed on a C&C boat, but there are still plenty of them on the water (pretty sure there's a C&C 110 moored across the way from my office).


----------



## SloopJonB

At one point, while a Canadian firm, C&C was the largest production sailboat builder in North America.

Ironically, their foray into building in the U.S. was a significant factor in their downfall - they lost a bundle on it apparently.

P.S. Taxes are the reason for all the yacht designers in Ireland - Holland was an early tax refugee there IIRC. It was because of a very lenient tax category for artists at the time, not business in general.


----------



## kimbottles

bobperry said:


> "But it's common practice, both in the U.S. and elsewhere, to conflate Canada as part of the U.S. "


While in New Zealand several years ago we were mistaken for Canadians. We did not feel it would be polite to correct the Kiwi's who thought Seattle was part of BC. (And I am the grandson of a Canadian, so close enough.)


----------



## bjung

*Re: Dehler 46*

The new Dehler 46, which Paulo posted about a while back, is starting to take shape.
http://www.dehler.com/news/article/article/1262/feel-the-fut-1/
The deck looks very sleek, with a low cabintop. I suspect freeboard will provide standing height below.

http://www.dehler.com/nc/new-46/doc...x_queodisplaymisdocuments_pi1[getFile]=264581

Interresting is, that the 46, just like the 38 does not have chines. Obviously Dehler is interrested in a fast boat. If J/V or Dehler thought chines were necessary for better performance they would certainly incorporate them. Thoughts?


----------



## slap

PCP said:


> Here you have the Canadians of C&C saying that t*hey are North American and making North American boats*:
> 
> *"C&C ... the premiere race boat builder in North America"
> *


C&C was a Canadian company. They were bought by the parent company of Tartan yachts in 1995. After that point, all of the C&Cs were built in the US, to new designs.

These are a better source for information:

http://http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/reviews/cnchistory/index.htm

or

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%26C_Yachts

I've never met a Canadian who liked to be called an American.


----------



## SloopJonB

But it appears there is no more Portugal - only "Europe". 

Or maybe I just don't know my geography.


----------



## outbound

curious on anybody's take on the "new" soft wing Benetau is pursuing. Sail just did a big spread on it.


----------



## jorgenl

Me thinks that Paolo is correct about the geography. Last time I checked Canada was located in North America, no?

But that does not really matter, because this thread had gone from being full of interesting new sailboat designs to a discussion about cars, rallye and geography.

While I very much like Bob's designs and follow the Sliver and Catari thread over at CA, he is only one NA with only so many new designs. Not enough maybe to keep this thread going and full of new interesting sailboats.

So, since Paolo (sort of) left, this thread has unfortunately gone to ****e.

Mission accomplished, I guess.


----------



## bobperry

Canada and the US are both in North America but we do not refer to each other as "North Americans" they way you might say "Europeans".You might say it but we don't.

As for cars, that was Paulo's idea pushing his ignorant stereotyping of Americans. We just followed up on that. It needed correcting.

No, you are correct, I can't keep the thread going with my design output. Not enough there. We miss Paulo's posts and the hard work he put into the thread. but I don't miss his attitude. I wish him the best with his blog. I do visit it. My blog is doing exceptionally well these days.

Life is thread drift.


----------



## opc11

Perry: "Peli: No need to be snide."

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black

...if you don't like it you can leave. isn't that what you like to tell everyone Perry?

you and your supporters have done a great job carrying the torch here. not!


----------



## bobperry

OPC:
Yes, that is exactly correct. You are spot on. Amazing insight. Bravo.

So, once again, if you don't like it you can leave. Some of you are very slow learners. Nobody forces anyone to come here.


----------



## SloopJonB

jorgenl said:


> So, since Paolo (sort of) left, this thread has unfortunately gone to ****e.


Well there are definitely fewer pointed shoe boxes with IKEA interiors but there is still interesting stuff going on.

Paulo has his blog if you miss them.


----------



## bobperry

" pointed shoe boxes with IKEA interiors"

Do you mind if I use that in a review Jon?


----------



## PCP

SloopJonB said:


> Well there are definitely fewer pointed shoe boxes with IKEA interiors but there is still interesting stuff going on.
> ..


You are certainly right about that. This thread is now aligned with the general view of this forum regarding sailboats. No more Ikea boats, only good old boats, with some new Bob ones designed on the same spirit: Good old American style boats, as Bob likes to call them.


----------



## SloopJonB

It's yours for a bottle of single malt.


----------



## outbound

If every one got past their hissy fits can someone ( even Paulo ) post new sailboats. Used to come and lurk. Enjoyed it. 
Think they make boats in nz and oz. know nothing about them. That would be a good start. No old world new world nonsense.


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> You are certainly right about that. This thread is now aligned with the general view of this forum regarding sailboats. No more Ikea boats, only good old boats, with some new Bob ones designed on the same spirit: Good old American style boats, as Bob likes to call them.


Damn straight.


----------



## bobperry

I like Classic American styled boats. That's my style. I am not Euro in any way. Never will be and happy for that. I leave designing those boats for the people who enjoy that style. I certainly see no reason other than juvenile pettiness to make personal attacks out of the differences. There is room for all styles of boats. I like differences. I enjoy boats of all styles myself as an observer. But I stick to what I do best. I think some of the modern European designs are very beautiful.

Out:
I don't think you will find any new production models coming out of Australia or NZ. But the NZ'ers do produce some fabulous custom boats. There are some new Oz models being produced in China. They are pretty race oriented though.

Jon:
You come down. I'll buy a bottle of Dalwhinnie. That's a promise.


----------



## SloopJonB

I don't think the difference is so much Euro/North American as it is Radical/Conservative.

Some of the Scandinavian boats are pretty conservative - I can't see Hallberg Rassy's being classified as "Euro" in the sense of the term in this thread. I also suspect that the majority of non-racing North American sailors would love to own one but simply can't afford it.

It's kind of ironic that, for the most part, the radical design changes are coming from the "Old World" and the conservative attitudes are found in the "New World".


----------



## bobperry

After a tremedous amount of deep thinking I think it's more a capitalism/ socialism kind of thing.


----------



## Osprey 26

Well not sure what to think about all of this. Hate North America as much as some like.
Despite that they can't find popular blogs about anything somewhere else, and guess they are back here.
On the other hand North America is big Island as looked on globe in this beautiful world of ours. Fighting didn't get as very far. So what is idea fighting about our pleasure craft?


----------



## bobperry

I'm not fighting. I'm having fun.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> I like Classic American styled boats. That's my style. I am not Euro in any way. Never will be and happy for that. I leave designing those boats for the people who enjoy that style.....


.


SloopJonB said:


> ...
> Also, we are able to recognize the different countries in Europe - that Swans come from Finland, Beneteaus from France, Bavarias from Germany etc.
> 
> They aren't all simply "European" boats to us.
> 
> It's not too tough.


Are you sure? To some European boats are all the same: Euro style!


----------



## outbound

Paulo I think Bobs critique of 3 boats in this months Sailing sums it up. You have the Eagle 54. A " spirit of tradition" boat. Designed in holland( Europe ). A C&C Reline 41 designed in (Ireland ) made inR.I.. And a Hanse 445 designed and built in Europe . Country of origin has little to do with design program or style. 
Of more interest is continuing divergence among ocean boats ( CE1). One group going with tried and true evolutionary design elements ( Morris, HR,Passport,Outbound etc.). Other going with low freeboard and dagger boards, or lifting/ chanting keels, or center boards. Some incorporate ultra high aspect bulbed fins. Agree those designs are primarily coming out of Europe but again one offs from Maine and R. I . also include those elements.
Think the boats rather than the countries are more important in this little blue pea in the void.


----------



## outbound

Paulo even in the mega yachts you see this. Perini Navi evolutionary. New England Boat works pushing the envelope.


----------



## SweareDeep

The May issue of Seahorse has an interview with Juan Kouyoumdjian (Juan K).
A couple of quotes:

"And I must admit that today I see a lot of boats out there where the use of chines is more of a fashion statement than anything else. Some designers are exploiting them well but, yes, a lot of it's about fashion."

"Chines can only make the boat go faster within a very specific set of circumstances, and I don't see these circumstances appearing very often on a normal production boat."


----------



## PCP

Some old boats are still quite nice. here you have one sailing on Lake Michigan:


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> Paulo what's your critique of the eagle 54. Basically the same feel. Very narrow boat. But unlike Frankie long overhangs and a bit of a transom.


I had posted here about the Eagle 44, a gorgeous boat:






The new Eagle 54 is going to be even more beautiful. That's the kind of boats you can fell in love for the life and pass it to the next generation:

Luxury Daysailers by Leonardo Yachts - Eagle 54 photowall

Talking about big American daysailers I do love also the ones from Stephens Waring: Beautiful boats. I also have posted about them here.


----------



## bobperry

There are a couple of other minor differences between the lovely Eagle and Francis.
FRANCIS has full headroom, 6'6' and a full, comfortable interior. While conceived as primarily a daysailer it was my intention that the boat be designed for cruising in the PNW. It is just inevitable that this will happen. In fact Kim is going overnight cruising on June 7th. He's sailing up to my beach shack.

Derek, one of Kim's sons, and I are both 6'3". Kim and Brent are 6' tall. We wanted comfortable headroom. I have learned over the years that a 5'8" sailor feels better in a boat with 6'6" headroom. The boat feels big and "airy". The interior of FRANCIS is all white and I can assure you that it is anything but dark. It is very bright below. I'm even hoping that the fabrics chosen for the cushions help mute the interior a bit.

This week FRANCIS will finally get cushions and sea rails. When I feel the interior is finished and photo ready I'll be happy to post photos. As for now it's not and I won't, it simply would not do the boat justice to show it shy of finished. But if you are interested in the layout you can get an idea of it from this drawing.


----------



## bobperry

Here is an interesting boat. Of course it's an American design in the old fashioned American style but it did win the first race yesterday at the Cortex Racing Association spring regatta. 2nd race was called when time lapsed. This boat also has chines. This kind of boat can take advantage of chines. So I gave it chines.


----------



## Capt Len

When coastal cruising I find that one spends a lot of time climbing in and out of the dingy.How well your vessel accommodates this activity can be a feature of safety as well as convenience. Slick sided high free board and my bum hanging over the skiff just reminds me how I need physio and less beer. Hope I never need to find a boarding ladder from the water. Dingy racing ,day sailing and going ashore for oysters may require some various considerations of what's beautiful/practical.I think that can be labeled compromise unless you think one design is best.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Here is an interesting boat. Of course it's an American design in the old fashioned American style but it did win the first race yesterday at the Cortex Racing Association spring regatta. 2nd race was called when time lapsed. This boat also has chines. This kind of boat can take advantage of chines. So I gave it chines.



I prefer the new racer made in china without any chine, inverted bow and a huge B/D ratio. Certainly a lot faster (Simonis-Voogd designed) and a cutting edge design.

Interesting Sailboats: FAREAST 31R

As I have said previously chines are mostly used for increased control on cruisers or short crew racers. Also used on offshore crewed racing boats used in very difficult conditions and sailed extensively (VOR boats). There a better control pays off regarding a boat marginally faster but more difficult to control. You seemed to agree with this view since you call them training wheels, as in a bicycle for kids.

Chines can certainly make a boat easier to sail and increase stiffness on a given heel angle but on a boat designed to use all transom as support while heeled they can be detrimental to performance increasing drag. That's why top racing crewed new designs are not using them, or when using them use it very high on the transom, in an almost vestigial way.


----------



## Sternik

Delphia Yachts has been on the very top of boat builders from Poland, with numerous awards: Delphia Yachts - Awards

The company has recently acquired Maxi Yachts About - Concept and Delphia's Saphire 27 won the "European Yacht of the Year 2014" in "Special Yacht" category Saphire 27 - Slip and trail without a crane

The background and reputation is solid, if I recall Dephia also won an award at Chicago Strictly Sail. These are well build modern boats, in my opinion.


----------



## Jaramaz

Delphia started 1990, ie somewhat new boatbuilders.  

In Europe they positions themselves as low cost (production in Poland is considerably cheaper than in "western countries"), but reasonable to good quality. They are competing with Bavaria - Delphia considered to be more interesting, but Bav has started to use top designers; personally I would prefer Delphia if only for the reason that one sees Bav everywhere. My own impression is that eg Hanse and Bene is a step up in quality, which of course a generalization.

The early boats from Delphia should be carefully inspected, it does take some years for a boatbuilder to get an even quality. Last five years Delphia seems to have stabilized, many customers have given positive reports. 

A Delphia in the US? Unusual, which has consequences on both buying price and later on when selling. This goes without saying ...

/J


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Give it a rest.
> I have explained my position on chines very clearly. If you still can't understand why don't you read slower next time. Your angry, personal attacks are juvenile and tiresome.
> 
> You continually revise your own position and I find that funny and revealing.
> 
> I'll say it again. On chines I agree with Juan K. Simple as that.


Well, mine is Juvenile your's is very misty. I did not have changed my position on chine and since you seem confused I explain: they can be used for three things: To increase control over the boat and make sailing easier, to increase hull form stability at a given angle of heel or to help a boat to plan. Different types of boats use chines for different purposes according with the designer's intentions. They can be well or baldly used because they also increase drag when badly used or in some cases they would just do nothing.

It seems that you don't know but all cruisers that I know designed by JK have chines. They are not many, the most known and mass produced is the First 30.



He says that some designers know how to apply chines, others not. I agree and I even said that clearly Finot/Conq and Marc Lombard, that have a huge experience with modern chines coming from designing many racing boats, are among the ones that work better with them.

Regarding the Delphia, besides the information that was already given to you this thread has plenty of information about them. If you use the thread search engine you will find it.


----------



## Jeff_H

I have seen two Delphia 40's out sailing around here in Annapolis and been aboard one at the boat show. The show visit did not leave a strong impression so I can't talk about apparent build quality, deck layout, or level of fit and finish. But I did have several chances to see them under sail. The boats that I observed do not seem as fast as I would have expected or as weatherly. They did not seem to do very well in light air, but seemed better when I encountered them in a moderate breeze. They seemed to be struggling as the wind picked up (maybe 15 knots) and may have needed to reef. Their sails seemed to be properly trimmed so that did not seem to be the problem. 

The only other thing about these boats is that their gelcoat (one mustard coloered and the other burgundy) seemed to chalk and fade very quickly. 

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Jeff. What you are saying is kind of the impression I was getting about the boat.
The fit and finish of the interior did not look that good to me and that big fat ass stern has too much wetted surface written all over it for good performance.


----------



## Jaramaz

bobperry said:


> Thanks Jaramaz. That should be all the info my friend needs. They are asking about $185.000 USD for this boat but it needs another $20,000 of gear to go. His wife likes the interior.


If this is a Delphia 40 then it is an old boat (~nearly 10 years?). $ 200' is too much. The follow-up 40.3 sells used for less. (even fatter ass + 2 wheels, of course).

see also 
Delphia 40.3 demobåt 2009 | Skåne
In Swedish! That boat has all kinds of equipment. Asking price $ 150' (and in Sweden where boats are much more expensive than US).

/J


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Jaramaz:
I have been forwarding these posts to my friend.
He's on his way to San Francisco next week to see what he can find down there. He and his wife have not fallen in love with anything they have seen yet.

I appreciate the back up on this as does my friend Doug.


----------



## PCP

Sternik said:


> Delphia Yachts has been on the very top of boat builders from Poland, with numerous awards: Delphia Yachts - Awards
> 
> The company has recently acquired Maxi Yachts About - Concept and Delphia's Saphire 27 won the "European Yacht of the Year 2014" in "Special Yacht" category Saphire 27 - Slip and trail without a crane
> 
> The background and reputation is solid, if I recall Dephia also won an award at Chicago Strictly Sail. These are well build modern boats, in my opinion.


I agree with that. Regarding the 40 they have been changing the interior but that hull is old and it is already a bit outdated. The boat has a good B/D ratio for the type of keel and is considered a safe boat.

As you properly know one circumnavigated recently on a non stop attempt. It made the circumnavigation but not really non stop because it hit a submerged object and had to stop to repair the rudder. Otherwise the boat did well.

Sail-World.com : Against the odds: Chichocki completes circumnavigation


----------



## DayDreamer77

Cool


----------



## sonnyboy

Cold?


----------



## donjuanluis

somebody know the market price of a new "Redline 41" from C&C. Found this boat very insteresting, of course from the point of view of a rookie!. Have to say that the model from the sixties is much more nicer to my eyes.
Redline 41 - C&C Yachts
The new one








And the old


----------



## bobperry

Donjuan:
I used to race on one of the '60's Redlines. Nice boat and very good looking.

No doubt the Mills design will be a very good boat. It's also pretty nice looking.
Don't know the price. Probably ten times what you would have paid new in the 60's.


----------



## SloopJonB

Everything is.

That old Redline is gorgeous. It's interesting how C&C boats have always been instantly recognizable as such, even though they kept changing - sort of like Mercedes Benz's.


----------



## chall03

Denizens of the interesting sailboats thread, might I trouble you for a moment for any information or opinions you may have on the below boat, A Montercarlo 43 designed by Angelo Lavrano/Fred Scholtz and built in South Africa in the 90's.










Yours truly is looking at one, but they are not that common a find, especially in this part of the world. Information is scarce to come by. We are basically after a 40 something, serious cruiser, capable of better than average performance in terms of making good passage times. It would appear to be a contender.


----------



## SloopJonB

My opinion is that it's a very good looking boat.


----------



## Skipaway

*Icon - Oregon Offshore*

Isn't this one of yours, bob?

Heading north @ 18k in WSW winds @ 20k is pretty impressive. nice showing.


----------



## kimbottles

*Re: Icon - Oregon Offshore*



Skipaway said:


> Isn't this one of yours, bob?
> 
> Heading north @ 18k in WSW winds @ 20k is pretty impressive. nice showing.


Yes, the SV Icon that smashed the Oregon Offshore Race record by almost FIVE hours is one of Bob's designs. They beat Rage's record that had stood since 2000.


----------



## robelz

The next Mini-Scow is in:


----------



## bobperry

Amazing shape.
Really makes youi stop and think. I like the idea of the chine running through the bow.
Is that a "bow"?


----------



## robelz

bobperry said:


> Amazing shape.
> Really makes youi stop and think. I like the idea of the chine running through the bow.
> Is that a "bow"?


I am not a native speaker, so you should tell me...

I really love it. The chine smothes the look compared to Magnum 747. Hope Raison will ones draw a 35-58' cruiser racer with such a "bow".


----------



## mitiempo

bobperry said:


> Amazing shape.
> Really makes youi stop and think. I like the idea of the chine running through the bow.
> Is that a "bow"?


Well it is the front I think.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

Last post 2 weeks ago. Paulo, we miss you!!!!


----------



## bobperry

Playa:
Paulo has a very nice web site. You should check it out.


----------



## DiasDePlaya

bobperry said:


> Playa:
> Paulo has a very nice web site. You should check it out.


I know! He is sailing now.


----------



## PCP

Well, almost. Living on the boat (Fiumicino, Rome) and almost sailing away

This year I decided to do all maintenance work and modify some stuff so it will take longer. But just finishing.


----------



## hannah2

Hey Paulo,

Good to see your getting ready for the summer season. Should be a great season for you after that really lousy stormy winter you had. Your boat is looking good and it is looking fast. 

We are back in Hood River and have left the boat on the hard in Panama for 6 months. Ya, I know what the hell are we doing! Well 4 new grand kids in the Hood, an El Nino year in Pacific, we have been twice allready, don't need a 40 day crossing at our age, no wind for 1st 1100 miles. Plus we have sailed the new Boreal 44, 7500 miles in less than 8 months and we want to slow down, Panama is a great place to hang out for awhile. May go to S. Pacific when El Nino is over or we may go back to Atlantic coast of Europe so we can spend some time instead of sailing hard south to dodge bad weather like last year, plus the wine and sea food is to good not to go back for another round.

Have a great summer season sailing the Med.

Hey Outbound you out there?

Steve and Tracy


----------



## CXsailor

looks pretty awesome


----------



## AlaskaMC

I don't know if it has been mentioned but the boat brand that started this thread off way back, Sirus, has moved ahead with their new 40DS. Here is a 3D of it.










These are really cool pilot houses for northern latitudes and they put tons of thought into the design with lots of owner feedback. The site is full of images where they are test fitting the interior with mockups.










And here is the first hull.









Very beautiful boats and definitely interesting. Hope this wasn't a dupe but was checking out their site and couldn't help but be interested in the updates.


----------



## causeway

I don't particularly like the lines of that boat but for where I sail (55 north or higher) its pretty much exactly what I want. Or a boreal, or an ovni, or a Garcia. Never mind!

Nice to see the design process much lower tech than I would have expected.


----------



## SloopJonB

I would think that for high latitude sailing, low tech would be the way to go.

If I was possessed enough to sail north of Alaska or south of Cape Horn, I think a Brentboat or similar would be what I'd want.


----------



## PCP

AlaskaMC said:


> I don't know if it has been mentioned but the boat brand that started this thread off way back, Sirus, has moved ahead with their new 40DS. Here is a 3D of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are really cool pilot houses for northern latitudes and they put tons of thought into the design with lots of owner feedback. The site is full of images where they are test fitting the interior with mockups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is the first hull.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very beautiful boats and definitely interesting. Hope this wasn't a dupe but was checking out their site and couldn't help but be interested in the updates.


It is funny that you that live and sail on high latitude think the boat is suited while some that don't sail there see it as too sophisticated.

Many think about high latitude as uncharted waters but that is not the case in Alaska? or North of Europe. I don't now Alaska but on the North of Europe plenty of nice little ports and interesting places to visit. The boat is not designed as an exploration boat but as a very comfortable boat to live and sail on high latitudes (civilized) countries and for that I think it is a sweet boat. It is also a boat designed for the older (solo) sailor and for those mechanical and hydraulic help is needed to substitute the lost youth and force. Anyway, the boat will be so expensive that probably only the very rich or the very old will have the money to afford it


----------



## bobperry

I don't like the square face on the stem.


----------



## Capt Len

I think that the more real experience you get in a specific area tends to modify what you think works best.Beauty is in the eye of the owner or wanna be but working your way through chockablock bergy bits in a 5 foot swell or finding the beach to seaward because all the water went somewhere else as the wind changed (charts not withstanding) indicates a more specialized hull form and robustness may be required for a successful voyage outside the marina showplace.


----------



## hannah2

The Sirus 40DS looks pretty good. But looking at their website I noticed they use twin rudders some of their other models. I have no idea why anyone doing serious cruising in high lats would want twin rudders.


----------



## Capt Len

Metacentric heights not in the vocabulary of some NAs. Same dude that designed the Korean ferry ,now living in Anacortes.'Twenty degrees to port, helmsman! Oops!!


----------



## rrslider

Some of these boats are quite beautiful!


----------



## Salamander

Fascinating


----------



## bjung

*Swede 68*

Swede 68, from the pen of Designer Hakan Sodergren, a yacht with beautiful classic lines above the waterline, but a modern hull with tall carbon rig (206 sqm sailarea ) built for performance, is presently being built at Rosaettra Yard, Sweden. 
She should be quite stunning, cosidering the 2.6M € pricetag.
Swede 68: Schärenkreuzer im XXL-Format - Yachten + Jollen | YACHT.DE
Classic Swedish Yachts ? The thrill is on ?


----------



## SloopJonB

WOW!


----------



## Faster

SloopJonB said:


> WOW!


Wow.. the price? or Wow... the boat? 

No matter.... Wow indeed. Waiting on interior shots/plans


----------



## robelz

https://www.facebook.com/Bateaux.Archambault?fref=nf

Archie postet a picture of the first A13 hull. Damn, I love it!


----------



## robelz

The A13 hits the waves!


----------



## robelz

Another pic of the A13.


----------



## robelz

Fareast 28R: Rüsselracer aus dem fernen Osten - Yachten + Jollen | YACHT.DE

After the 31R Far East is building a 28R, too. It will be made in epoxy instead of carbon, has an aluminium mast and will be easier to handle. Price is 42k€ including main, jib and gennaker. A competitive boat at a competitive price.


----------



## bjung

robelz said:


> Another pic of the A13.


Not a bad debut...
BREWIN DOLPHIN COMMODORE?S CUP 2014

I am however surprised, that they are not offering a ballasted swing keel or lifting keel (as in the A27) option for their A13 Cruiser version. Standard draft is 2.6m !


----------



## robelz

Amazing Transquadra: Close to the finish Sun Fast 3600 is leading just 0.1nm(!) before JPK 10.80.

Isn't there any A35r?


----------



## PCP

The winner was JPK on his JPK and a A35 was first on solo. More information and some movies on my blog.


----------



## Sandy101

PCP said:


> The biggest composite sailboat in the world, Hetairos with 197".
> 
> Mirabella V, now M5, was and still is the largest composite sailboat in the world (recently refitted from 75m to 78m length overall)


----------



## robelz

Dehler 46: I don't know wether she's fast or not - but she's definately sexy!


----------



## donjuanluis

robelz said:


> Dehler 46: I don't know wether she's fast or not - but she's definately sexy!


For some man a skiny lady would be sexy, for others a big one. For me is not only about shape and look. In the case of boats, from a poor sailors point of view, this one looks a bit sumptuous.


----------



## SloopJonB

Dehlers have always been good looking boats. I'd prefer to give up a couple of feet of waterline in exchange for a bit of bow overhang though - it would look even better that way.

Anchor handling would be a lot easier too.


----------



## slap

robelz said:


> Dehler 46: I don't know wether she's fast or not - but she's definately sexy!


It's amazing how carefully adding waterline stripes can hide high freeboard.


----------



## knuterikt

*Linjett 43 - Crash test video*

The new Linjett 43 from Rosättra Båtvarv Linjett 43

Has got a new keel design where the draft can be adjusted between 2.45 meters and 1.90 meters in 30 seconds using a hydraulic mechanism.
This system is designed to withstand grounding!

This video is from testing done on the prottype, running onto a Swedish rock 2 meters below surface.


----------



## Kostis

i have a request . Not all of us can afford a bob perry design and that is just a fact. But there is something that we could afford. A dinghy. So how about a classic Perry look on a sailing dinghy that beginners could built as well? So we can say that we have Perry sailboat too. Or something a bit bigger like 16-18 feet. plywood and glue construction. Double ender probably. Something simple and classic. Something even a beginner can start building but also the option to add more woodwork on it. 

I personally would love to build something like that and brag i have a Perry design boat.


----------



## Juriola

Hi all.
I've been 3 months reading this post and just arrived at the end and it is almost destroyed.
I haven't seen in it a really interesting boat for many many posts.
Surely it is a question on what i understand as an interesting sailboat. I will keep the faith in the people that comes here and hope we can keep talking about interesting sailboats.


----------



## bjung

The new Linjett 43, features a ballasted liftingkeel, that reduces the draft from 2.45m to 1.9m. Interresting here is, that the keel can also swing back 70cm in case of a grounding. It softens the grounding on a rock at 8 knots enough to prevent damage. While some swingkeel boats also have this option, this seems to be the first liftingkeel with this advantage. 
Extremtest: Mit acht Knoten gegen den Fels - Panorama | YACHT.DE
Pressrum


----------



## bjung

*Grand Soleil LC46*

A new Grand Soleil, the first one under new ownership (Sly Yachts ), and designed by Marco Lostuzzi. 
Grand Soleil


----------



## Juriola

*Re: Grand Soleil LC46*



bjung said:


> A new Grand Soleil, the first one under new ownership (Sly Yachts ), and designed by Marco Lostuzzi.


It looks like a floating summer appartment for me. It seems that when they call a boat "cruiser" it means it is for staying at the port and do nice partys on it.
The winches aren't too close?


----------



## Juriola

Here you can see more of this rocket

vimeo.com/107950560 Comanche is launched!! on Vimeo

(i can't post links yet)


----------



## Juriola

Guillaume Verdier has pushed designs quite far away, he did the JP54


----------



## robelz

This one will be a great partyboat, too


----------



## PCP

Juriola said:


> Guillaume Verdier has pushed designs quite far away, he did the JP54


In the case of the Comance it is not a matter of pushing the design faraway or not: It is an oceanic race boat. It will work as previewed...or not, meaning the design is right or not.

If it proves to be the fastest boat on Ocean races, namely transats, in very little time all the boats made to win will be like that.

In this case it will not be a design pushed to a limit but just the way contemporary design proves more effective to attain a given goal: The fastest monohull on a Transat and possibly also on the Transpac.

Then it will be the norm and Verdier just the designer that pointed the way....If not, well, it will just be a design pushed to the limits...too pushed to be effective.

Time will tell.

http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.pt/


----------



## zenyacht

*Re: Monohulls versus Multihulls*



PCP said:


> Sure multihulls are great and I talked here about all the multihulls that are mentioned on that article and much more but they have some big disadvantages:
> 
> The first big one is the price: For having an offshore capable multihull able for crossing oceans with a big safety margin you need a big one, like the ones that are mentioned. The same level of seaworthiness can be obtained with a much smaller monohull. Besides size for size a multihull is substantially more expensive.
> 
> The second disadvantage are costs of maintenance and marina: Multihulls pay more 50 to 100% on the marinas or on the hard and the cost of hauling out is superior also. Today with the costs of marinas, that's a lot of money.
> 
> The third is that a multihull in bad weather is more uncomfortable that a sailing boat of the same size.
> 
> The fourth is that a monohul has a better performance upwind. The difference would not be very big regarding a multihull with movable lateral foils but on most cruising cats that's a very big difference, specially if we consider a performance cruiser. The biggest difference regarding a monohull will be downwind sailing, but only if the multihull is a light one and not a Lagoon type that are by far the more abundant and the less expensive. Performance multihulls, like the ones that are referred on that article are much more expensive than the lagoon type.
> 
> Regarding comparative performance you can have a look at the ARC:
> 
> This year there was lots of cats and you can see they are not doing better than similarly sized monohulls and that's an unfair comparison because price for price you would have a much bigger monohull that would not cost more to you in marina and maintenance costs.
> 
> That's true that this year was not properly a normal one in what regards trade winds, that have not been constant, but that's what I am saying: For sailing on the trade winds they are great, for being also a good one upwind, only some very special and expensive ones and even so there are some of those on the transat and the performance has not been great.
> 
> Take as example the Gunboat 62 that was beaten by a Marten 49, an Ocean Explorer 60 that was beaten by a X50 and an Oyster 655, a Catana 58 that are been beaten by the X50, by a Grand Soleil 56, a Discovery 55, a Gunfleet 58, a Oyster 48 and a Pogo 12.50. These multihulls are the fastest of the fleet and are fast cats. There are many more behind, some really big ones.
> 
> Now, don't take me wrong, if I could afford a 50ft trimaran, or even a 40ft one with retractile amas, not to pay a fortune on the marina and to have a decent interior space, probably I would have one but the only one on the market is an old and relatively slow one (a Dragonfly). The 35 Dragonfly would suit me fine if they upgraded it to 40ft, but the 35ft costs already around 450 000 euros. I wonder how much would cost a 40ft? Maybe 600 000? With that kind of money you can buy a Pogo 50 or any other very fast 50ft monohull and still have money left to enjoy cruising.
> 
> In fact most cats you see around are slow cruising cats that are not faster than a performance cruiser of the same size, quite the opposite and even those are a lot more expensive than performance cruisers, size by size. Of course they offer a much bigger interior space, but then we are not talking about performance but about living comfort and interior space.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I'm not sure if you know how to read the race results, but the Gunboat was not beaten by the Marten 49. We took 5th across the line, behind Caro (wicked boat), a Volvo 70, a Southern Wind 72, and a maxi. We beat every monohull smaller, we beat every other cat by a huge margin. I think the performance of a Gunboat is remarkable. We had the most comfortable passage in the fleet with 6 cabins, plenty of privacy. We had a full Thanksgiving, and we didn't motor at all. You have an axe to grind, but you should base your argument on fact, especially when you are using false facts to base your argument. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. In this case yours is wrong.

The rule of thumb (and evidence bears this out) is that a Gunboat is as fast as a similarly sized grand prix monohull (of the same vintage) or as fast as a performance cruiser (of the same vintage) that is 1.5 times the size. And a Gunboat will be FAR more comfortable than either platform. (granted, that last comment is subjective, but...)


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## PCP

*Re: Monohulls versus Multihulls*



zenyacht said:


> I'm not sure if you know how to read the race results, but the Gunboat was not beaten by the Marten 49. We took 5th across the line, behind Caro (wicked boat), a Volvo 70, a Southern Wind 72, and a maxi. We beat every monohull smaller, we beat every other cat by a huge margin. I think the performance of a Gunboat is remarkable. We had the most comfortable passage in the fleet with 6 cabins, plenty of privacy. We had a full Thanksgiving, and we didn't motor at all. You have an axe to grind, but you should base your argument on fact, especially when you are using false facts to base your argument. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. In this case yours is wrong.
> 
> The rule of thumb (and evidence bears this out) is that a Gunboat is as fast as a similarly sized grand prix monohull (of the same vintage) or as fast as a performance cruiser (of the same vintage) that is 1.5 times the size. And a Gunboat will be FAR more comfortable than either platform. (granted, that last comment is subjective, but...)


Off course you are right in what concerns the Marten 49,a much smaller boat. If you had read the following of the 2013 ARC on this thread you would have seen that previously I stated it right. Obviously I wanted to say not a Martin 49 but a Knierim 65, a monohull performance cruiser of about the same size that beat the Gunboat 62 by almost 5days!!!

In 2003 the performance of the Gunboat 62 (or the other cats) did not appear to me nothing special. Regarding cats I was more impressed by the performance of a Lagoon 560, a much slower and smaller condocat that made in my opinion a much more remarkable passage, doing it on only more 2 days and 5 hours.

If we compare the almost 5 days that the Gunboat 62 lost to the to the Knierim 65 with the 2 days 5 hours that the Lagoon 56 lost to the Gunboat or even with the 10 hours that the much smaller Marten 49 lost for the Gunboat, it is not with the Gunboat performance that I am impressed with.

I have nothing against cats and this year Philocat 44ft, a small cat with a small crew (only 4, one of them not a sailor) made on this year's ARC an absolutely remarkable passage finishing among the first very close to a very fast and well sailed Felci 61. It looks to me a much better performance than the one of the Gunboat last year, considering the differences in sizes.


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## tdw

Sadly for us all Paulo has seemingly decamped to his own wee world where Interesting Sailboats lives on. He is missed, he will be missed, his contribution was awesome.

That he felt hounded from his own thread (yes I know, no one owns a thread) is sad.

Anywho .... I stumbled across this .... manages to look pretty much cutting edge yet has a lovely, vaguely traditional feel to it.






Shipman 63 Gallery - Shipman

I think the pics on the website are in Flash or somesuch cos I cannot link directly to images. Sorry about that. Paulo is a lot better at this than i am.


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## PCP

tdw said:


> Sadly for us all Paulo has seemingly decamped to his own wee world where Interesting Sailboats lives on. He is missed, he will be missed, his contribution was awesome.
> 
> That he felt hounded from his own thread (yes I know, no one owns a thread) is sad.
> 
> Anywho .... I stumbled across this .... manages to look pretty much cutting edge yet has a lovely, vaguley traditional feel to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shipman 63 Gallery - Shipman
> 
> I think the pics on the website are in Flash or somesuch cos I cannot link directly to images. Sorry about that. Paulo is a lot better at this than i am.


HI Andrews!. The fact that I am not posting here new boats does not mean that I don't enjoy participating on discussions about interesting boats, specially with nice people

On this thread me and G1000 talked several times about Shipman yachts:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/788812-post1550.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/789091-post1552.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/789132-post1553.html

Since G1000 post more Shipman were made, big ones, and they are now cruising and racing the oceans. The Shipman even if expensive is one of the yachts with a better quality/price/performance ratio.

Made entirely in carbon they are not only a long range cruisers as occasional racers. They are designed to be short crewed following Open 60's developments in hull and rig design, in what concerns easiness to tame sail power and have a very stable sailing platform.

I had always said that I was not convinced that in what regards normal long range sailing conditions, the ones that we find on the trade winds, The type of Sundeer's hull was the more indicated for performance short handed cruising (if it was the Open 60 would be narrow boats).

I had never found comparative information that sustained that out of theory, till I found out that a Shipman 63 had done one ARC world with two Sundeer 60. Well, the Shipman was a bit longer but the Sundeer were two and none of them was able to beat the Shipman on any of the several legs of the ARC and sometimes the Shipman finished several days ahead both of them.

A very nice boat the Shipman 63, luxurious interior mixed with great sailing and seaworthiness, my kind of boat....if I was a millionaire

Well, this one is nicer than the 63:


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## tdw

I just stumbled across the Shipman vid on YouTube. Didn't remember they had already been discussed. Me I just thought she looked rather pretty yet a thoroughly modern miss. 

Even the smallest Shipman is way to much boat for me or my wallet but one can dream can't one ?


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## tdw

Oh well, every thread must run its course. Unfortunate but there you go. I'm not prepared to let someone else's selfish agenda bugger it up any further.


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## tdw

An addenda to my previous post ..... thanks to Paulo for the thread. An amazing amount of work went into it with some incredible boats and info on them. 

We'll leave it up to Paulo as to whether he wants to start a new thread or if he so desires to have this one re-opened. His choice.


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