# tartan sailboats



## stm (Jan 25, 2001)

I am currently looking at several Tartan's. I used to own a t-37 and was very happy. Now I looked to get a newer 3500 (2002) or a 2007 3400. I have read some bad threads of hull issues in the newer boats. Does anyone have any feedback on the 3500's and has Tartan responded to the issues with the newer hulls? Has there been any issues with the 3400? thanks in advance.
STM


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Funny you should mention that... This boat is a 2007 down in Deltaville VA. Guy had it 3 months and had to sell it (don't ask me why). Custom paint job, lots of bells and whistles. 15 year transferable warranty from Tartan. Thats if you can get them to return your phone call. Good luck.

Freeman


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

we need a lemon law for boats.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Bardo said:


> Funny you should mention that... This boat is a 2007 down in Deltaville VA. Guy had it 3 months and had to sell it (don't ask me why). Custom paint job, lots of bells and whistles. 15 year transferable warranty from Tartan. Thats if you can get them to return your phone call. Good luck.
> 
> Freeman


Damn it...what a nice looking boat!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello,

The Name is Will Vest and I am the Tartan C&C Dealer for Virginia and North Carolina. I want to assure you that there is nothing wrong with this boat! I am willing to prove it! You purchase this boat subject to a survey and if the survey discloses any of the problems that this site has been implying then I will pay for the survey!! (and tear up the purchase agreement). What more can I do for the purchaser and the seller?

Will Vest
Tartan C&C Yachts Virginia/NC
804-776-0570
804-370-0265 cell


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Will,

EDIT: Based on further revelations made here: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37731&page=2 , in particular post #18, I have decided to remove these suggestions for Tartan. I will keep an open mind about the concerns some recent Tartan owners have raised, and hope all will be resolved quickly and to everyone's reasonable satisfaction.

I still would be interested in hearing more about the new 4300, a design that would suit our sailing style very well.


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## 7Psych (Aug 28, 2007)

My wife and I just ordered a 3400 and will be getting delivery in late November. We also were very interested in that 3500 and definatly would have purchased it except for the draft. We sail in very shallow waters and cannot have anything except a centerboard keel. We are repeat Tartan owners. We spent MANY,MANY months looking and researching boats and there was nothing that could compare to the Tartan and its offerings. We have no regrets re: our decision to purchase and expect only a top quality boat. 

However, aside from this re: the recent litigaton.....just remember....There are TWO sides to every story!


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

stm said:


> I am currently looking at several Tartan's. I used to own a t-37 and was very happy. Now I looked to get a newer 3500 (2002) or a 2007 3400. I have read some bad threads of hull issues in the newer boats. Does anyone have any feedback on the 3500's and has Tartan responded to the issues with the newer hulls? Has there been any issues with the 3400? thanks in advance.
> STM


I would certainly proceed with both eyes open in regards to the warranty issue claims made by some and take the comments, not confirmed by reputable and/or neutral source BTW, with a grain of salt.


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## luckyjim (Jun 2, 2007)

T37Chef said:


> I would certainly proceed with both eyes open in regards to the warranty issue claims made by some and take the comments, not confirmed by reputable and/or neutral source BTW, with a grain of salt.


...wait until the court papers are published I guess. Better still, have your attorney pull filings right NOW!

Look, whether it is a Tartan or a any new just do your homework, have your attorney do the prior/current litigation homework and reach out and talk with the unhappy owners. Find out and call around...


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

luckyjim said:


> ...wait until the court papers are published I guess. Better still, have your attorney pull filings right NOW!
> 
> Look, whether it is a Tartan or a any new just do your homework, have your attorney do the prior/current litigation homework and reach out and talk with the unhappy owners. Find out and call around...


Where are all the other unhappy owners? How many 3700 have been built? How many hulls have cracked? One is to many, yes. Not fixing it...bad, very bad.


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## luckyjim (Jun 2, 2007)

_5) Make sure Tartan/Novis sacks whoever is responsible for this fiasco. It should never have gotten this far along.
_
How do you sack an owner? Making scapegoats of management or staff is not the answer here. The owner is calling the shots. It's that simple.

As the Germans say, "the stairs always get swept from the top".


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## luckyjim (Jun 2, 2007)

T37Chef said:


> I feel for your situation Jim, really, it sucks, and is wrong.
> 
> Where are all the other unhappy owners? How many 3700 have been built? How many hulls have cracked? One is to many, yes. Not fixing it...bad, very bad.
> 
> And please tell me how court papers prove anything? Last time I check in the US, one is innocent until proven guilty?


Do your homework and build your network. Many are frozen solid and watching and reporting in back channel.

Just pull the papers now and you would see what I mean. I agree, guilty and proven innocent the same as I do free speech. So go and pull the papers.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

luckyjim said:


> Do your homework and build your network. Many are frozen solid and watching and reporting in back channel.
> 
> Just pull the papers now and you would see what I mean. I agree, guilty and proven innocent the same as I do free speech. So go and pull the papers.


Jim...I just edited my post...after reading again I understood you meant after the case is closed...misread.

BTW...shouldnt you change your screen name to Unluckyjim? Sorry, could help it


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Will Vest...thanks for your post and that is a good offer. She looks beautiful. 
I do think that the buzz on this issue around the net will cost Tartan a lot of sales now and in future years unless it is resolved and in a very public manner. Just look at the price Bavaria has paid HERE for a couple of keels falling off on a boat sold only in Europe a few years ago..and they are still paying. 
I know Tartan dealers probably can't get involved with this too much on line...but if I were you, I'd be talking with other dealers and with Novis to discuss a path forward that won't damage the excellent franchise that Tartan and Tartan Dealers have built through the years. 

Note...I am not saying Tartan has done ANYTHING wrong...I am simply commenting on the fallout from the present discussions all over the internet. You may decide to fight and WIN and publicize that to make your reputation whole again...but if Tartan does not win, I am afraid the damage will be massive. Are the facts clear enough to take that chance? 

Anyway...hope that is some food for thought and thanks for coming on to stand behind your boat with an excellent offer.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

willindvilleva said:


> Hello,
> 
> The Name is Will Vest and I am the Tartan C&C Dealer for Virginia and North Carolina. I want to assure you that there is nothing wrong with this boat! I am willing to prove it! You purchase this boat subject to a survey and if the survey discloses any of the problems that this site has been implying then I will pay for the survey!! (and tear up the purchase agreement). What more can I do for the purchaser and the seller?
> 
> ...


Will,

I for one would welcome you here. I think many others would as well. I have to say that 'The Other Side of the Story' (as one poster put it) would be very nice to know. Many of us, myself included, have long been fans of your/Tartan's boats. I have always regarded them with very high respect. HOWEVER, the posts I have read both here and elsewhere have become VERY disturbing.

Regarding your offer on the survey, I have to ask if you are aware of the concerns that have been brought up on this and other boards? If so, I would be curious in knowing how you feel a survey would make any difference. It would seem the hull problems would not show up at first - only after use. By that time, the boat is well under the name of the new owner and only a warranty can be of any help. If the warranty is not respected or upheld, I cannot imagine where else an owner would turn short of eating the bill him/herself. THis is the heart of the issues that have been raised... not a broken water pump or a failure to comply to ABYC standards.

I personally would like to point you toward a couple of threads and the details they have provided. I welcome your thoughts and comments. I love your boats... always have... but I find many of the things I have read very disturbing. I truly hope it has all been misrepresented or ther is some missunderstanding which can clear the air.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37076&highlight=tartan

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35760&highlight=tartan

All the best. Thank you for your effort.

- CD

EDIT: Just saw you posted too, Cam. I guess we think a like.


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## luckyjim (Jun 2, 2007)

T37Chef said:


> BTW...shouldnt you change your screen name to Unluckyjim? Sorry, could help it


With this boat overall, no. There was nothing unlucky...'They' knew exactly what I was getting. _Lucky_ could be applied after what I had delivered to me this week detailing what 'they' knew and when! Overall, we'll leave that to judge and jury...Never under estimate the power of a network and the concern of others going through the same hell...that desire to remain off stage for now!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

One other comment: This site has not implied any of these comments, nor have I or most of the other members. I have repeatedly said that I am not saying anything is or is not wrong (as Cam even said just above me). *These comments, as best as I understand it, come from current owners of your boats.*

Hope that is clear to everyone.

- CD


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## luckyjim (Jun 2, 2007)

willindvilleva said:


> Hello,
> 
> The Name is Will Vest and I am the Tartan C&C Dealer for Virginia and North Carolina. I want to assure you that there is nothing wrong with this boat! I am willing to prove it! You purchase this boat subject to a survey and if the survey discloses any of the problems that this site has been implying then I will pay for the survey!! (and tear up the purchase agreement). What more can I do for the purchaser and the seller?
> 
> ...


Will,

You should be applauded as you sound like a truly committed dealer and broker. The seller is lucky to have you. You have stepped forward and you are taking on a huge amount of future risk in your statements. You can do only one more thing beyond providing a money back guarantee except, stand by it it to the penny.

Your boat looks very, very fine.


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## 121Guy (May 6, 2007)

Stm and 7psych and Will,

Wish you both well on your purchases. 

Stm, 

My advice to you from someone has walked in your shoes.....stick with one that is several years old and get a good survey. I don't place much value in the warranty on the newer boats as you are ultimately relying on the factory. Your warranty is with them, not the dealer. Get one that already has been vetted if you can.

7psych,

We were owners of a Tartan before our current C&C 121. She was a Tartan 33. Which old Tartan are you moving from? 

Are you purchasing from a company owned dealer?

Are you trading the old one, or selling privately?

The 3400 looks like a fine boat and the keel centerboard sure give you options.  I looked one of the new ones with the trough boom over well this summer. It was commissioned in the marina we were in. I really liked the spar but wasn't too crazy about the boom. Thought the spar was well done but couldn't justify the look, cost and finish of the trough boom versus an aluminum boom with lazy jacks / stackpak. Have you asked what the price difference might be? Have you sailed one with the keel centerboard and new style rig? 

Will,

I admire your straightforwardness. Do you work at a company owned dealership or is it an independent?

How many new Tartans and C&C's have you sold and for how long?

What kind of warranty issues have you had to deal with?

Best wishes to you all.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It willl be interesting to watch this progress.  I think that the bigger issue here is not the quality of the boats, which, IF there are engineering deficiencies, is not too difficult to remedy, but rather whether the corporation will continue to deal with its customers in the manner that has been reported.

If they do, I believe that this behaviour, rather than any issues with the boats themselves, will become the biggest obstacle to the company's prosperity.

Will's post is laudable, but as another Sailnetter mentioned, in the end it is the factory that is responsible for the resolution of warranty issues. Until they manage to develop a reputation for excellent customer support, I think that things are going to prove difficult for them.

I believe that Novis would benefit by emulating Catalina's service model. While I have heard various comments - good and bad - about the boats themselves - I have never heard anything but very positive statements about the support and customer service the company offers, to both new and resale buyers.

Hence, I like the boats more than I would otherwise. I recommend them to friends and acquaintances, and will continue to do so. In my opinion, there are faster, prettier and stronger boats on the market, but I know that if a newbie buys a Catalina and has a question, they can always call the factory for help.

I would venture that Catalina's marketing budget, when taken as a percentage of sales, is a much lower figure than that of Novis, yet they continue to prosper simply because people want them to. They have created goodwill in the marketplace.

Novis is the current proprietor of two brands that had accrued huge goodwill in the marketplace. The boating communty was saddened when Tartans and C&C's experienced difficulties, and there was excitement when it was announced that the marques were to be resuscitated.

That goodwill, of which a substantial amount remains, is the only asset that Novis can actually depend on for its survival. If that is squandered, the molds, dies, supplies, furniture, drawings - everything else - is worthless. 

There are hundreds of companies out there making boats, but there was only ever one C&C and one Tartan. Countless thousands of people learned to sail, to cruise and to race on those boats. A lot of those people finally have the time and money to buy the "big" boat, and would love nothing better than to get a brand new C&C/Tartan.

It doesn't make a huge difference if the boat costs them $245,000 or $275,000, as long as they feel that they are getting a piece of the dream. So I can't for the life of me understand why I keep hearing derogatory comments about the service and recently, product that Novis is producing.

The hard part has been done for you - all you have to do is make good boats and be nice to people.


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## 121Guy (May 6, 2007)

More on the warranty support from Novis....

The current warranty manager there is named Andy Drumm. Over on Sailing Anarchy there is a thread discussing a new Jim Antrim designed 40 foot Class 40 race boat. The literature lists none other than Andy Drumm as the sales contact for the Novis 40!

This stuff would be really hard to believe if it wasn't so sad.


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## 121Guy (May 6, 2007)

T37Chef said:


> I would certainly proceed with both eyes open in regards to the warranty issue claims made by some and take the comments, not confirmed by reputable and/or neutral source BTW, with a grain of salt.


T37 Chef and all,

Thanks for all the excellent suggestions. Two added points I know have been made before but bear repeating are:

No one from Novis has ever apologized to Cindy or I for the problems they have caused.

As for the "neutral source" comments. I'd like to remind all that before we sued, we tried to do just that. Boat US Consumer Protection Group was the only mediation service we could find. We started that process and the company, in the person of it's CEO Bill Ross, refused to communicate with them.

The fellow at Boat US to speak with is Raymond Rose and his e-mail is [email protected]

What more should a consumer be expected to do?


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## luckyjim (Jun 2, 2007)

121Guy said:


> More on the warranty support from Novis....
> 
> The current warranty manager there is named Andy Drumm. Over on Sailing Anarchy there is a thread discussing a new Jim Antrim designed 40 foot Class 40 race boat. The literature lists none other than Andy Drumm as the sales contact for the Novis 40!
> 
> This stuff would be really hard to believe if it wasn't so sad.


121 Guy,

I am not sure if you are making a dig at Andy Drumm or not. I do not think it would be fair to blame Andy Drumm or knock him in any way. I am sure he is just being pushed from here to there.

What I do find very disturbing though is that Novis' single warranty manager who has to take care of all of the C&C/Tartan user base is being given added responsibilities to sell a new class of boat. What is going on with that? When current owners don't hear back from Andy for weeks because he is 'so swamped with warranty issues' that owners are forced to go to Tim Jackett what in the world are the management thinking? Surely at this time Andy should be working client calls, not selling new boats (although we all need them to be doing that right now!). To know one young guy is the warranty manager, a salesman and also out commissioning boats for days on end is just indicative of what is going. (Yes, Andy spent days in the NE recently re-commissioning the split hull after re-manufacture!)

Again, I am not knocking Andy, but please whoever is listening, get Andy Drumm back in a role of communicating with current clients with broken boats to make the existing clients happy...building the goodwill!

LJ


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

JohnRPollard said:


> Will,
> 
> I have not been involved in the controversy, but based on what I've heard and read and since you asked "What more can I do?", at your invitation I offer the following suggestions:
> 
> ...


Hey ... I asked what more could "I" do for my client and a prospective purchaser. I think that your suggestions are a bit unreasonable for ME to take on. Please consider that I am just one independent dealer, not the company!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

121Guy said:


> Stem and psych and Will,
> 
> Wish you both well on your purchases.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to answer a your questions, First of all I am an Independent Dealer for Virginia and North Carolina. Next, I am a new dealer and have been in business for 1.5 years approximately. I have sold two 3400's to date many brokerage boats. I have successfully worked through 4 different warranty issues and am currently working on the 5th.

I have been in the Marine industry for 20 plus years and have extensive sailing back ground.

thank you for the opportunity to join this discussion and I sincerely hope that we can work together put out this wild fire! Tartan Yachts are and continue to be a quality built boat!

Will


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Will,

I recognize you are just one dealer, but I couldn't resist the chance to make those suggestions to the first person associated with Tartan that has posted to Sailnet. Maybe if you could network with the other dealers you could speak collectively to Novis and send them a reality check.

It is nice to hear from one of the dealers and it sounds like Tartan is lucky to have you representing them. You might consider checking in at Sailnet from time to time since Tartan boats of all vintage are a frequent topic of inquirey here. 

I missed the Annapolis show as we were out sailing that weekend. If you were there and got aboard the 4300 I'd be interested in hearing your impressions (especially if you went for a sail!)


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## 121Guy (May 6, 2007)

Will,

Thanks so much for the info.

When you say "independent", does that mean that you own 100% of the business? Does Novis, or any other Novis related company have an interest in the dealership?

Have you sold and commissioned any new C&C s?

Good luck and thanks,

121 Guy


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## 121Guy (May 6, 2007)

Will,

Sorry I forgot...could you tell the group a little about what the warranty issues were?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I LOVE my new to me Tartan 27, 1970. I hope your issues are worked out, court or sailing, hum, that's a hard choice.


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## luckyjim (Jun 2, 2007)

joeasburyp said:


> I LOVE my new to me Tartan 27, 1970. I hope your issues are worked out, court or sailing, hum, that's a hard choice.


Not if you don't have a safe working boat on which to go sailing and it is tied up at the dock and cannot go anywhere! Court is the only option to get what you paid for.

Enjoy the T27...by all accounts a lovely boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

luckyjim, 

whats the matter with your boat that its tied up at the dock and not safe?

Moe


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Ossiemoe...welcome! Read this thread for background on this one! 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35760


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

luckyjim said:


> Not if you don't have a safe working boat on which to go sailing and it is tied up at the dock and cannot go anywhere! Court is the only option to get what you paid for.
> 
> Enjoy the T27...by all accounts a lovely boat.


Reading through the blog and post, I am guessing luckyjim owns mako, and mako is a T3700 that lost two saildrives.

two questions for luckyjim:

1. did you have a galvanic isolator wired into your boat. your blog indicates you self-commissioned, worked out some issues with a leaky propane line, fixed the saildrive, had a diver do zincs, and then lost another saildrive as well as electrolysis on the lead keel.

2. why is mako not a "safe working" boat.


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## doubleeboy (Jul 21, 2008)

Hi All, I realize I am adding to old thread. My wife and I recently stepped onto a new Tartan 3700 and to say the least were blown away. What a fine sailboat. We have decided to raise our top dollar considerably that we will consider spending on our purchase of a sailboat.

Having read a lot of the negative posts about Tartan and the epoxy hulls and warranty issues I was wondering if now things have settled down?

Is there any chance I could buy a late model 3700 or 3400 and get warranty service if needed, even if I wasn't original owner?

Is the company sound or are they in trouble?

Thank you all,
michael


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Michael,

See here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat/35760-prospective-new-recent-tartan-buyers-note-35.html


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If I were you, I would avoid going with a recent model Tartan.

The company is basically still questionable and it is very likely that whatever company emerges from the ashes of the old one will have ZERO liability and responsibility for any of the already manufactured boats.

Most of the plans for re-forming or selling the company appear to be ASSETS-ONLY, and don't require any of the boat warranties to be honored to any degree.



doubleeboy said:


> Hi All, I realize I am adding to old thread. My wife and I recently stepped onto a new Tartan 3700 and to say the least were blown away. What a fine sailboat. We have decided to raise our top dollar considerably that we will consider spending on our purchase of a sailboat.
> 
> Having read a lot of the negative posts about Tartan and the epoxy hulls and warranty issues I was wondering if now things have settled down?
> 
> ...


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

I saw what I believe is the boat pictured in this thread still sitting in D'ville this past weekend. 

It really is a shame to see such a nice looking boat caught in limbo.


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