# Blinded by reputation



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Hello all, third post on this vast forum. I need advice/opinions from those who have been there.

The dream; Retire in 6 years at 39 years of age and want to live.

The means; Little debt other than my house and truck. Substantial disposable income. Good retirement coming for the rest of my life in a small amount of time.

The mentality; I am a minimalist, always have been. 

Now the question. 

I have been scouring forums for some time now, read Atoms voyages, Fiberglass Vengeance stories, studied vast replies from very salty people who know better and yet I am still slightly confused. All I want is a small boat- under 32' with the basics or at least the capability to add them, that with a good skipper-(me with experience and training)- that I don't have to "trade in" later in life to fit my at the moment dreams, whatever they may be. Basically a boat that can be sailed single handed, cruise the ICW yet with proper prep sail anywhere. 

I fully understand watching the weather and making good decisions regarding when to leave port or not. However, stealing from many years of power boating on the Chesapeake Bay and off the coast of Northeastern Florida, you never know when a squall will come through that brings with it large and confused seas. That being said, a boat that will not fall apart underneath me. I have been caught in storms in a Boston Whaler that by my miscalculations became fully swamped- yet I was able to bail it out and help someone else who was not so lucky...nothing like 20' breaking waves in a 15' open boat to calm the soul.....yea right. 

I know nothing about sailboats.

Based on weeks of reading- including many good books at the library, I have nailed it down to a few old boats. Keeping in mind that I don't want to splurge on an expensive boat. I am keeping the cost under 10k for the purchase price. 

After creating a long list based off of the following criteria, 

1) Aesthetics
2) Cost
3) Support
4) Reputation
5) Inboard
6) High ballast to displacement ratio
7) Standing headroom
8) Small cockpit
9) Good drains
10) longest waterline length

I have drastically shortened that list

All that is left are the following;

Pearson Triton
Bristol 27/29
Sailmaster 26
Cape Dory 25
Albin Vega- though it falls short in the Aesthetics department. 

The usage of my boat will be 90% Coastal Cruising for the next six years, 10% Bahamas and island hopping- then, provided cigarettes, Iraq and Afghanistan don't kill me, Pacific ocean passages and Atlantic crossings- with the intent of staying at the final destinations until I tire of them to see more of the world. 

I have no interest in a 40'+ boat. (I live in a 2500 sq' house yet use bedroom and kitchen....don't even have furniture in the other rooms. ) 

Am I missing out on anything by narrowing my choices to these particular boats?

I have a Hobie 16 for the wet, speed enhanced excitement. 

I have read all the reviews regarding Columbia's, Flicka's and Contessa's but they do nothing for me in the looks department. To each his own I guess. Some like blonds and so forth. 

There are many good cruising boats out there other than what I have listed, but they are either to expensive, ugly or are generally unavailable with little support. Yet, people travel and live their dreams on O'days's and the like regularly. These people are already on the islands in the sun while I sit here pondering on my boat selection. However, would you want to endure a Gale 8 storm in one? Some would say "not in any boat you listed either" but given a choice? The best weather planning is still at the mercy of nature- and it would seem that at that point the things that matter are the skippers ability, luck and then the boat holding together. In that order. 

What are your views/ opinions on what I have said? Are my choices sound? Logic correct? Notice that for some reason all my boats are full keel older designs. Why is that?

Thanks and I look forward to your replies. Alan


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## thesnort (Jun 2, 2007)

10K seems to me unrealistic for a solid, heavy-use boat you describe. The "sail anywhere" criterion would mean more initial money invested to get a solid and bluewater design boat, and more money to get it fully equipped.
I have somewhat similar aspirations and have decided on a Catalac catamaran. I hope to be buying one soon.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Alan
Your's is a variation of the same question asked seemingly every day here by at least one person who has a dream but no real offshore experience. Rather than reiterate all the same answers and conflicting opinion, just imagine being your own diesel mechanic, electrician, cook, plumber, HVAC expert, refrigeration repairman and, if you have kids, school teacher, all simultaneously with constant boat maintenance, navigation and do ao while sleep deprived, sea sick, smelly and hot. Add being in a confined, constantly moving space for prolonged periods. 

This isn't intended to be condescending; just a true picture of what it's really like. some people love the life. Some do not. Do you know which you are? 

Once you can accept that reality, it's time to start either boat shopping or beach condo shopping.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

I dunno. 10K? It's more and more a buyers market. There are 2 pretty nice Bristols on eBay right now. The 28 footer is at 4K, the 29 footer at 6K. Not bad at all.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

go tmy formosa 41 for 10k --there are many boats in decent shape selling for less--why shouldnt he find one for 10k or even less?? is a total buyers market and will be for a long time yet, as folks sell the toys they can no longer afford....


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## Hillster (Nov 19, 2008)

The Cape Dory 25D would be my dream pocket cruiser but it will cost more than 10k for one in good enough shape.

Expand your price to 25k and your dream is much more possible. I say this because, if you buy a 40 year old Triton for 10k, it will be at least 15k extra to get her up to speed for the trips.

It sounds like you do not want to finance the boat, but paying off a 25k boat over 5 years is not a big undertaking. You plan to coastal cruise during that time anyways.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

k1vsk....you should try being in a combat zone for 9 tours...I have gained a new perspective on what harsh and reality really is all about...)) I am simply looking to slow everything down and enjoy everything that is right about the world. But that is for a VA forum...lets talk sailboats.


yes, it seems my concerns have been addressed in many different ways on a multitude of different forums- including this one. I feel as I have read many of them and still walked away somewhat confused. 

I have learned lessons with cars, where no matter how much money you put into a Camaro, its still not a Corvette. I do not want to make the same mistake with a boat. I get long winded at times but I will try and summarize my concerns.

Am I missing out on anything by looking at full keel heavy displacement inboard boats? 

Would it make more sense to get a lightweight racer/weekender type hull and push limits until I am ready to retire and cast off? Or does it make sense to start out with what I want to end up with- all the while improving and upgrading for the eventual use?

In these very forums I have read countless opinions on why one should not use a ocean prepped boat for coastal cruising, an article regarding a man who bought a Valiant 40 for use on lake Lanier, Ga comes to mind. I do live right on the Atlantic Ocean- this is where the boat will be used. It is not a harbor or a sound, it is beach- then ocean. 

The very reason I don't want a true "bluewater" boat is due to the coastal use I have planned over the next six or seven years. However, those listed boats did not appear in my mind on a whim. They are highly decorated boats recommended by the people on these forums. Sailors, cruisers and some brave enough to circumnavigate solo on them. 

Six or so months ago when I finally decided to start actively pursuing my dream, knowing nothing about sailboats, I almost bought a 1968 Graves Constellation. Beautiful boat but.....after researching I found that it was not anything near what I would want or need a few years from now. Wow, I may have just answered my own question. 

Are the reputations that keep these old boats alive worth the compromises that come with them? 

They are good boats because they are strong and perform well enough to offset the weight and other trade offs of being built strong. Correct?

I was not asking for anyone to judge my dreams and aspirations, though feel free to do so. Having researched, dock walked and yard scavenged boats and compiling all the information I have read or received by talking to people, these were the boats that were left standing after the weeding out process. I simply wanted to bounce all this off of everyone who reads this and get some last minute- "they will do what you ask or that boat will fail...I have tried it advice" Hence the posts name...

Man, i am long winded....Anyway, the boats listed have an aura surrounding them by so many people regarding their capabilities that I wanted to see if it was mystical hype/owner bias or are these boats really solid/safe/accommodating foundations to start with. I really only want to kickstart this project once and not waste time and money on something that is past its service life. 

To sum it up..no holds barred. Are these boats really that good? Good enough to overlook other boats? Please clarify my confusion. Thanks for your input so far. Alan


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

One further question before someone kicks me off of here for talking to much.

Why does everyone quote 15-20k to outfit a boat? I have priced new running and standing rigging, ports, sails and lines, winches and thru hulls and whatnot and it comes nowhere near $20,000. This was for a Triton by the way. As far as glassing goes, have not received any offers in the crew wanted section so i bought a bunch of glassing material and have been making molds of things in my garage..(I really need a hobby...) These materials are not even that expensive. As far as labor cost...0 (zero) I can do electrical/mechanical and wood working blindfolded. well maybe not woodworking...its hard to measure when you cant see. Am I missing something major in the costs to oufit a boat?

Oh yea, electronics. Provided nothing is serviceable in the boat I buy- GPS and depth sounders are not that expensive. 2k for a gizmo that not only tells me where I am, but will practically tell me what type of fish are under me and how to properly cook them...


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

If you're singlehanding, you'll want some kind of self-steering (Ares or Monitor windvane, etc). Thats big money.


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## sarafinadh (Jun 16, 2009)

everyone says it will cost more because refitting a boat is like remodeling a house.. it takes longer and costs more every time... No matter how careful and prepared you are it is going to wind up being more and harder than you thought. Just the nature of the beast.

I.E. The water pump doesn't work and in removing that hardware you find the plumbing lines are compromised and as long as you are under there you might as well replace them. Then you get back to the water tank and when you remove the hoses from the nipple lo and behold, the tank has deteriorated (we ARE talking about an older boat, non?) and instead of just putting on the darn faucet you got a great deal on at the marine salvage store you are building cardboard models of water tanks to maximize usage of the space the tank is in currently and researching everything you can find about water systems in general...

Honest. Always bet on the unknown nippin yer tush.

And as far as picking a boat, I know only enough to be dangerous so I wouldn't dream of advising anyone on whet to buy, but I will say that I truely believe that there is a bit of magic involved in the process of selecting a companion as intimate as a boat... 

Research until you have a solid understanding of what you are looking for and at.

And then go looking. All that brain knowledge will oversee the gestalt of your emotional connection when you step aboard the right one.

At some point what seems complicated, obscure and difficult will become clear and straightforward.

Good luck!


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Alan,
I doubt that you will be 'kicked off' this forum for talking too much. It is also true that your questions are somewhat quotidian and everyday on this forum. 
I happen to like your list of boat choices as I too like the old school style of full keel heavily built sailboats. There are others here who will trumpet the newer style, less robustly built boats as blue water cruisers. I don't have an ax to grind in this debate, I just like what I like and I like boats that were built a bit heavier then the production models of today. I also have no plans to go (back) to Iraq or Afghanistan (never been there). 
I do like the Cape Dory boats and I also like the Tartan 27' that I do own. One of my fellow owners did some modifications and has his T27 out in the South Pacific near Vanuatu. Most of us just stay closer to home - wherever that happens to be.
My boat partner always wants to get new sails for racing our old boat and I seem to want storm sails (trisail and storm jib). Who is thinking about longer range cruising?
Blue water safety equipment is expensive: life raft, SSB radio or SAT phone, computer, chart plotter hooked into dependable autopilot, Radar and/or AIS, Jack lines for clipping on tethers while going forward, etc, etc. This stuff does not usually come cheap. Add in new standing rigging wires and you are easily at 10K even if your boat only costs 4K.
My best.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

alanr77 said:


> I know nothing about sailboats.


Welcome aboard Alan. I think I know exactly how you feel. I was in the same place 30 years ago and still remember the indecision and frustration.

You asked a lot of good questions in a forum filled with people with thousands of years total experience. Unfortunately however a good answer for you to each question is going to be based on what kind of sailor you are and what kind of person you are.
Since you are not a sailor and we know almost nothing about you, all the answers you get are going to be based on just guesses regarding you.

So I'm going to attempt to give you some general guidance that you can apply to your own situation.
I'm going to make one assumption. That assumption is that you do not have a trust fund that you can tap for a few 10's of thousands whenever you want to and are looking to achieve your dream for the least money. If you do have access to a lot of cash please mention it as the recommendations may change.

Rather than focusing on what kind of boat to buy, full keel, coastal, blue water, standing headroom etc. focus on becoming a sailor. Do not spend a dime extra that doesn't move you toward that goal.
You may not have to buy a boat to become a sailor. Clubs, other peoples boats, work at a boat yard etc may get you on the water for the next six months.
If you do have to buy a boat the only goal is to get a boat that will get you on the water as much as possible. A club 420, laser, small day sailor anything sail-able. If you get something that needs work you will be working on a boat instead of becoming a sailor. A big boat for 10 to 20k will take up a lot of time not sailing.

If you work at it hard for two years you will have spent almost no money and then you will be a sailor.
The little boat you can sell for what you paid for it.

You have a huge learning curve to be a safe, happy competent ocean sailor. 
You can with luck and hard work accomplish anything.
The problem with ocean cruising is that the chances of someone making all the hundreds of decisions correctly that there life depends on then make the hundreds of decisions correctly to make if affordable and the hundreds of decisions correctly to make it fun takes more luck than most people have. 
If you focus on becoming a sailor first, make the personnel contacts, learn about yourself in the context of sailing I believe your journey will be more fun, safer and you are much more likely to achieve your dream.

You are welcome to call If you just want to talk as I have some personal experience in exactly this subject.

One of my favorite sailing stories the idea that all sailors start out with a big full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. The goal is to fill up the bag of experience be for the bag of luck is empty.

In short the reason why this is so hard for you is because "you don't know nutten". Do what you need to do to get some water under you keel and you have an easier time.


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## Sequitur (Feb 13, 2007)

sarafinadh said:


> ... And as far as picking a boat, I know only enough to be dangerous so I wouldn't dream of advising anyone on whet to buy, but I will say that I truely believe that there is a bit of magic involved in the process of selecting a companion as intimate as a boat...
> 
> Research until you have a solid understanding of what you are looking for and at.
> 
> ...


Wow! Now there is some of the best boat-buying attitude and philosophy I have heard in a long time.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

alanr77
The posters are right. It takes a fair amount of money to equip a small sailboat for extensive offshore travels. I am doing that right now. Just today on another post on this site a link was posted to a Vega 27 that was for sale (now sold) listing the equipment additions the owner made. I think you will find it informative. I'm not talking about fixing what needs it (although that is going to happen with any 20 - 30 year old boat as well), but additions like rewiring, electronics, wind vane, sail additions, etc. Look at this site and add up the prices - you might be surprised.
Brian
Whisper is for sale!
The Log of Whisper


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Where are you stationed?

When I was stationed at Camp Lejeune I had a friend who used his VA loan to buy a 30-odd footer and lived aboard at the MWR marina. It was really cheap. His dock fees and utilities were way less than paying property taxes on a house.

That may be a way to go for you. Just get a decent coastal cruiser and learn to sail locally. Once its time to retire, you can always sell that boat and buy another once you've figured out what you really want.

The one thing you can absolutely guarantee is that with no experience, you will no way, never (no matter how good your research) pick the right boat the first time. Best bet is to buy something decent and cheap that is good enough for what you need right now and sail it as often as you can.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Thank you all for the advice. Points taken and considered. 

No, I have no trust fund. Just a good income and some assets that will serve me later in life. However, even if I did, I do not want to spend 25k on the purchase of this boat. There is no need based on my goals and ambitions. Besides, that goes against my way of doing things. Example: My neighbor bought a 3k riding tractor last year. I got on craigslist and found one for $100.00. $65 in parts and for the last year and a half I have his wife yelling at him for spending the 3k on a tractor when my $165 one cuts the grass just as good, starts just as easily so on....you get the point. I have a little money because I don't spend alot of it. 

Maybe I am making this much more complicated than it really is. I never had this issue when choosing a powerboat. You simply went with what you liked- and I liked Chris Craft speedboats and cruisers- spent alot of time on a 32' Constellation and a 20' Rivera. There just seems to be so much more to sailing than powerboating. So many different factors. I never thought I would witness two people arguing over a hull design because one goes 1 knot faster than the other. 

If there is one thing that I will take immediate heed to it is the advice to get on the water now in a keel boat- and continue with my training. I am registering for the RSA courses here shortly. I have tried to get in touch with the local sailing center here but know one likes to return phone calls or emails. I guess they have enough students and are out sailing all the time.

Parts are about complete for the 16' Beach cat I have and I should be on it soon. Apparently it does not count as "real sailing experience though"..?..? -I have read many articles as to why...some convincing, some not. 

I forgot about the vane. Though wouldn't this be something I would need a few years from now? Remember, I would be sailing the coast of Georgia and Florida for the next six or seven years. 

OhioTom; I am stationed in Savannah Georgia. Unfortunately, my VA certificate is tied up in a 2500sq' house on an acre of land that I rarely use. Not to mention Georgia has a nice little "no live aboard" law that is apparently enforced. After serving this chunk of land we call the US for the better part of my life, I am still appalled by some of the laws WE allow to pass. But that's for another forum....

Thanks for all the opinions, perhaps in the RSA courses I will meet others with similar ambitions....cause as of now all my powerboat friends do nothing but laugh at me...have a friend who just bought a 30' sportfish, twin 300 mercs who has already "volunteered" to come pull me out when I run out of wind and ground my keel into the sand... such good friends..... A


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

alanr77 said:


> Thanks for all the opinions, perhaps in the RSA courses I will meet others with similar ambitions....cause as of now all my powerboat friends do nothing but laugh at me...have a friend who just bought a 30' sportfish, twin 300 mercs who has already "volunteered" to come pull me out when I run out of wind and ground my keel into the sand... such good friends..... A


Having some sailor friends will make all the difference. The power guys can be nice but they just don't get it.

I love your tractor story.

The advantage of getting a little more water under your keel is to reduce the risk of spending 10,000 on a boat that needs more work than you anticipated and then spend a year or more (not sailing) and who knows how many thousands and it still doesn't work out well.
Don't ask how I know.


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## bheintz (Jun 14, 2001)

alanr77,

I like your plan -- retire in six years on a 32 foot sailboat, relax and enjoy life. Also your shortlist of boats is thorough, cautious, reasonable, and modest. Seems that you have done your homework.

Just like the others on this thread, I have a few reservations.



> All I want is a small boat- under 32' with the basics or at least the capability to add them


What do you consider the basics? AC electricity? Hot and cold running water?, clean dry clothes? The smaller the boat the less likely you will have these luxuries when not "tied to the dock." Not all of us need that _stuff_, some do.

I don't mean to be a killjoy, but a sailboat is not a riding tractor, rarely does anyone who had little or no sailing experience spend less than they expected on a boat.
- One of the pitfalls of buying a used boat is you don't know the history of the boat. 
- The second is having to replace things that you thought were perfectly serviceable at the time you made the purchase. 
- A third is fixing things that were not done right the first time, or improperly repaired. 
- Forth, electronics do not last forever, they are generally expensive. Eventually they become obsolete and no one can find replacement components to fix them. Older systems may not be compatible with newer ones (analog vs. MNEA 0183 vs. N2K vs. CANbus)
- Five, repairs take longer than you expect. A good rule of thumb is to think of everything conceivable thing that you will need to do to make the repair and assign a time value, add it all up, then double it. (if you're not experienced with the job, double it again.)
- Six, sails cost money: to maintain, to repair, to replace.



> with a good skipper-(me with experience and training)


To gain blue-water sailing experience requires the knowledge and skill acquired over a period of time, especially that gained in the most adverse conditions. For many it takes a lifetime to gain enough experience to calmly withstand the most averse weather conditions. Next time there is a squall, gale, thunderstorm, hurricane, typhoon, etc. consider what it would be like to be out in it -- if you were 100 miles offshore, you would be 20 hours away from the nearest shelter. Now imagine your engine stalls: clogged fuel filter, water in tank, line wrapped around the prop, etc. OR Your rigging fails: broken gooseneck, parted halyard, the roller-furling unfurls, a spreader breaks, etc. OR Your sea-anchor breaks the hardware off the deck and drifts away . . . You'll find that a 26-32' sailboat handles very differently than a 15' Boston Whaler in those conditions.

We all want you to enjoy your dream, we also want you to avoid the many pitfalls that may discourage you along the way.


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## lporcano (Feb 20, 2003)

seeyahttp://35knots.com


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Thanks everyone for some very thoughtful replies to some of my concerns. 

bheintz; Basics to me are:

A place to cook

A place to hang a sun shower

A place to safely store dry/canned goods

A comfortable place to sleep

Ability to stand up when below deck

Ability to get out of the weather and warm up/cool down or dry off

And finally, a head that I don't have to be a contortionist to use 

I was serious when I said I really don't need much to be happy. If I want to sit in a hot tub I will go to a Hotel. I am sure there are plenty in some of the areas I want to go. 

Not to mention, I have to intent to "set off towards Australian waters in six weeks"...while spending three months at sea. Hell, I may find that I like the Islands south of Florida and never really leave there. 

Storms...I can remember quite well at the age of eight helping my father ride out a storm that blew through the Chesapeake Bay area in the fall of 1985. Some of you may remember that storm. It was safer to ride it out than to stay at the dock. That was in a 45' CCraft Connie. that kind of weather demands respect and I would prefer to watch that stuff on TV than be out in a boat through it. Proper weather planning seems to be of the utmost importance.

I am starting to see a trend in the replies though- and it is shaping some thoughts in my head. It seems that the idea (and I agree) is that I need to get on the water. So, there are plenty of small trailer able weekenders in the local area that are ready to sail. (or for the most part) and would require minimal investment to launch. I can afford both worlds- buy a 1500k daysailer, spend time on it learning the intricate art of trimming sails and such. Keep the Beachcat for when the wind is to light for anything. Find the Triton or Bristol I want- put it in the building I am constructing behind the house and restore it. In the end, all can be sold except what I choose to keep. 

What are the benefits of swapping an Atomic four for an equivalent size diesel? Fuel economy?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

alanr77 said:


> I am starting to see a trend in the replies though- and it is shaping some thoughts in my head. It seems that the idea (and I agree) is that I need to get on the water. So, there are plenty of small trailer able weekenders in the local area that are ready to sail. (or for the most part) and would require minimal investment to launch. I can afford both worlds- buy a 1500k daysailer, spend time on it learning the intricate art of trimming sails and such. Keep the Beachcat for when the wind is to light for anything. Find the Triton or Bristol I want- put it in the building I am constructing behind the house and restore it. In the end, all can be sold except what I choose to keep.
> 
> What are the benefits of swapping an Atomic four for an equivalent size diesel? Fuel economy?


I think you got it pretty well worked out. Another option is to put about 15,000 to 20,000 into a Catalina 27 or 30 or similar coastal boat and just do a lot of sailing. If you want a different boat after a couple of years you can sell a popular boat for what you paid for it.

The reason those in the know are not encouraging you to to buy a boat to restore is that restoring a old boat is either one of two possible projects. It is either an all consuming job where you don't have time for anything else for two or three years. Or it is a significant job that you stretch out for 5 to 10 years. Many people have done it both ways.

Based on what you have said your main goal is to sail. 
Restoring an old boat is a worthwhile endeavor but is always a bigger job than a first timer figures.

Here is the math if you are a first timer no matter your experience with cars, houses etc.:

Figure the most amount of time you could possibly imagine everything taking for your proposed project. Let's say 100 days, a little more that three months. Now multiply that number by 3 so you have 300 days.
Now figure the minimum you will work on the boat per month. Lets say you are not going to do 20 days a month which would be full time but you are sure you could put in half time hours. so 10 days per month. Take that number and divide in half or 5 days.
Now divide to find out how many months the job will take. In this case 60 months or 5 years.

I will start another thread with the above calculations so you can see if others agree with my numbers.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

alanr77 said:


> One further question before someone kicks me off of here for talking to much.
> 
> Why does everyone quote 15-20k to outfit a boat? I have priced new running and standing rigging, ports, sails and lines, winches and thru hulls and whatnot and it comes nowhere near $20,000. This was for a Triton by the way. As far as glassing goes, have not received any offers in the crew wanted section so i bought a bunch of glassing material and have been making molds of things in my garage..(I really need a hobby...) These materials are not even that expensive. As far as labor cost...0 (zero) I can do electrical/mechanical and wood working blindfolded. well maybe not woodworking...its hard to measure when you cant see. Am I missing something major in the costs to oufit a boat?
> 
> Oh yea, electronics. Provided nothing is serviceable in the boat I buy- GPS and depth sounders are not that expensive. 2k for a gizmo that not only tells me where I am, but will practically tell me what type of fish are under me and how to properly cook them...


There are 2 factors that bump up cost. Labor and wanting the latest and greatest. But there are some big factors that can jump in. what if you need a new winch, OK there goes a grand an a half. Your rigging really should be done by some one who knows what they are doing so that is several thousand. But yes electronics, fiberglass, and wood work are not expensive if you choose carefully and do the work yourself. You might be happy with a simple GPS chart plotter depth finder and VHF. Others _need_ radar, a big 12 inch touch screen control panel full auto pilot, and SSB and will spend $20,000 on the electronics alone.

A lot depends on your wants, simplicity or latest and greatest. Heck a windvane is 5 grand alone but an auto tiller is only $500. So yes it adds up quickly but as long as you keep it simple you should be ok.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Alan, if you think the line drawing you see in my avatar is absolutely the most beautiful thing you have ever seen in your life, then you are in the market for a Cape Dory 25D.

Here's one for 9900$ in Road Island. Go for it.
1984 Cape Dory 25D Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Selkirk said:


> Alan, if you think the line drawing you see in my avatar is absolutely the most beautiful thing you have ever seen in your life, then you are in the market for a Cape Dory 25D.
> 
> Here's one for 9900$ in Road Island. Go for it.
> 1984 Cape Dory 25D Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


Wait - that's a boat in your avatar? I thought it was a Rorschach test! I was seeing an angry poodle. Heh-heh.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

smackdaddy said:


> Wait - that's a boat in your avatar? I thought it was a Rorschach test! I was seeing an angry poodle. Heh-heh.


Lemme help ya out. Ready?








Angry Poodle









Cape Dory 25D
Now which do you think is prettier?:laugher


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Damn....just let a 1961 Pearson Triton go on Ebay for $1225.00 in for what looked like not to bad of a condition. There will be more I am sure but I am spending the savings I have already accumulated on sailing classes. It's a shame my University does not offer them. Thanks everyone for your perspectives on the so called "path". I plan to purchase a cheap/small weekender type boat while taking as many sailing classes that I can fit into my schedule. (cant wait till I have no schedule anymore....) I will practice what I am being taught on the small boat- only investing in what is needed to keep it sailing and safe. In the meantime, while accomplishing those two tasks, I will find the classic plastic boat i want and restore it in my shop. ( I love restoring/fixing and repairing things- when I have nothing broken I help others fix their broken stuff) 

It would seem that training and actually sailing next spring would help me accomplish my goals faster and more efficiently in the long run. And I can sell the weekender (boats with trailers sell fast) when I am done with it. Though I am still looking forward to sailing the beach cat here soon.

By the way, Selkirk, I love the Cape Dory line. Though it seems that I like all the Carl Alberg designs. 

Again, thanks for allowing me to vent a little while considering my options- I am sure people will be hearing more from me later on in the "how to???" section or maybe I'll just post along with my progress. Alan


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*go for it*

The boats you have chosen are all excellent and could be outfitted to meet your needs. The older FG boats have heavy layups and less problems with blisters. You seem sensible and capable so just do it, there are no guarantees except that you will learn what you don't know.


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## CaptainMorgan21 (Jun 19, 2009)

Good luck on your dream and forget the nay sayers. You can find boats for less than 10K, they may need sprucing up, but you can do want you want when you want and still be able to start sailing.

Jerry


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

alanr77 said:


> I plan to purchase a cheap/small weekender type boat while taking as many sailing classes that I can fit into my schedule. (cant wait till I have no schedule anymore....) I will practice what I am being taught on the small boat- only investing in what is needed to keep it sailing and safe. In the meantime, while accomplishing those two tasks, I will find the classic plastic boat i want and restore it in my shop. ( I love restoring/fixing and repairing things- when I have nothing broken I help others fix their broken stuff)


We are all looking forward to hearing about your progress.


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## KenWeller (Nov 11, 2009)

*Graves Constellation, etc.*

AlanR77 -- if you're still listening:

I probably bought the 1968 Graves Constellation (North Carolina?), the reputation of which blinded you. It's identical to the one I left behind when I relocated from Rhode Island to England 15 years ago. How's that for an endorsement? But not for what you want -- nothing like full headroom, for example.

You asked why your short list tends toward long keels. Probably because of your high ballast ratio requirement (a very good idea, by the way). Major production boats tend to follow design trends which are "encouraged" by international handicap measurement rating rules.

The IOR (International Offshore Rule) was introduced in 1970 and caused leading designers to gravitate to less stable models to gain a rating advantage. This trend lasted throughout the 70s, 80s and early 90s until the IMS (International Measurement System) began to encourage stiffer designs (again).

An Ameircan pre-IOR yacht might turn turtle at about 120 - 125 degrees of heel. IOR designs came to turn turtle at 115 or even 110 degrees. The Pearson Triton is a good example of a pre-IOR yacht and, by the way, is a very good choice for your requirements (at the smaller end of options). It has full headroom, for example. As an older design, it will have a longer keel. With the introduction of the IOR, all designers moved to fin keels and spade rudders.

A Triton is a very well built boat. Built in the same period as the Constellation, like the Connie it shuld have a bullet-proof hull layup and fairly sensible construction. It will not leave a 60-foot strip of rubber, though, but do you really care?

By the way, that 1968 Connie (hull #17 of 27) I shipped over here (England) from North Carolina is documented as a 1965 and has been SERIOUSLY neglected. I have a lot of work to do, including replacing some sections of the plywood deck, but then I knew it would be that way and I'm actually enthusiastic about the restoration project I've begun. At least the fiberglass hull will last longer than you and I; no problems there. The price finally dropped to $5000, which in sterling is no more than my teenager's second-hand, hot rod trapeze dinghy. The Connie is sort of the MG TC of 30 foot yachts... or maybe the MGA. I love it.

Ken on the North Sea Coast


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

AlanR77
There are lots of good choices, although the person favoring a Tartan 27 or a Pearson Triton wouldn't likely favor a more modern design of boat like a CS27 or a S2 or something similar. But any 30 year old boat will need upgrades at least, if not fixing of problems which is more likely. If you want to get a better idea of the work some of these plastic classics need go to these sites.
T27Owners : Tartan 27 Owners Yahoo Group
The Plastic Classic Forum • Index page - a large number of members own Tritons
Or to get a good idea of why that Triton was $1225 on E-Bay and what it probably needed try this site. Northern Yacht Restoration | 1966 Pearson Triton Circe
Don't get me wrong - I like older boats and think that is the way to go but they do need work - sometimes a lot. It's the route I went and I have no regrets but went in with my eyes open. 
Brian


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

AllanR77,

If you are still around, I hope you'll update us on how things are going. 

Few thoughts ...

You sound like a practical sort of person who is able to figure things out for yourself, so I will come at it from a different perspective. First, let me tell you, I'm not that experienced either, so keep that in mind - my situation is actually quite similar to yours in that I am still trying to learn all of this as I go along.

Having said that ..

I think it is good to divide things up so you can focus in on what's important. Sailboat design *is *very complicated and requires a lot of experience to understand, it is hard for us beginners to know which boats will do well on the ocean as a result. The operation of a sailboat *can be* complicated depending on the situation, there are a lot of tricks and techniques and few people have mastered a significant number of them, again, experience is what its all about, learning to sail the boat. Sailboat maintenance, however, *is not *that complicated, but is further complicated by the systems you have on board.

Maintenance

The maintenance you'll probably have no issues with. The basic boat with a full keel is simple - hull, mast and rigging, rudder, and sails. Being in the military you should have no problem learning new skills in a methodical kind of way, and the skills you need for the hull are such things as repairing fiberglass, sanding and repainting the bottom, waterproofing things that need waterproofing and that kind of thing. The rigging you can also learn from someone who knows about it, volunteer some time with a rigger and learn the ropes maybe ? In essence it is just wire holding the mast up, and once you learn the basics of rig tension, swaging, etc, then you've got it, it absolutely is something you can learn and for the most part do yourself. The rudder does sometimes have to be serviced, but again, it is just a thing that only has so many parts, and you can learn how it works by taking one apart and putting it back together, etc, maybe overhauling it when you get your boat is a good way to go. Finally, the sails, you can get into the sails as much as you want to - one of the first things I bought was a sailor's palm, needles, etc, you can learn a lot about this from books, but its mostly learned by doing it. Once you have these basic skills then you can pretty much take care of the boat yourself with the occasional need to use tools and techniques that you may not have, like a crane, or careening the boat, etc. You can, of course, spend all kinds of money having other people do these things, but that doesn't sound like what you are thinking, which is good if you are trying to control costs.

You can, of course, quickly get very complicated with sailboat maintenance. Add in an engine and you need to know about engines, become a diesel mechanic, etc, but again you can learn these things with study on your own or by taking classes. You'll no doubt want to use electricity, so its time to learn about solar panels, wind generators, electrical wiring, and all of that, again, it can be learned. Radios for communication, now you might want to investigate getting your amateur radio license, learning some basic electronics, learning about antennas, maybe start hanging out with amateur radio people and practicing with the gear, that type of thing. Every system you add (add to the dream boat in your mind, I mean, you may purchase it already installed), every system you add increases the complexity. Of course a lot of these systems are not necessary for operating the boat, so if they break it may not affect you that much and you can fix them at your leisure, but if you grow to depend on them then you'll have to maintain them and keep them working.

Operation

Sailing the boat is another set of skills that can be complex, but isn't that hard to learn the basics. I think I read somewhere that someone said that the skills required to sail a boat can be learned in minutes but it takes a lifetime to perfect them. Here a little training might help if you know absolutely nothing about it, but experience is probably the best teacher, and simply having a boat of some kind to practice with is probably the way to go. I am sure you will be able to figure it out, even if all you have is a book to learn the theory from, it just takes a little time and practice. Again, it is a series of skills that for the most part can be learned, using different sail combinations, being able to fly a spinnaker, etc, but I'm convinced that it can't all be learned, the ability to navigate, for example, just seems to be something you either born with or not.

Some suggest sailing smaller craft to learn the basics of sailing, a dinghy for example, because they are quicker to react and you can really get a feel for sailing with small craft in a way that you can't on a bigger boat, I think there is something to this. Another suggestion I have heard is to enter the racing scene at least as crew because the racers will teach you all about what good sail trim is and that kind of thing, valuable information to have. Yet another suggestion I have heard (or read) is that its good to practice sailing without using a motor at all because that forces you to do the kinds of things that you will have to do if your motor fails, here again there are many specific skills you can learn such as sailing on and off anchor, docking without motor, etc.

Anchoring and ground tackle is another area of operation you will have to learn, and there are some good books out there on that subject. Some of this can get quite involved, being able to anchor the boat very close to an underwater cliff on some south Pacific island that juts straight up from the ocean floor, for example.

Learning about the stars, moon, and tides is very helpful. Tides are absolutely essential because they have such an influence over the boat when it is near port. Some would argue that knowing about the stars and their positions and movements in the sky isn't as important as it once was because of GPS, but I still think it is a good thing to know about, and celestial navigation is interesting besides.

Living the life

Again, practical skills that you can learn to make it all work. You can learn to wash clothes on a sailboat using nothing but a bucket, a plunger or washboard, soap, etc, all it takes is practice, time, and energy. You can cook, sounds like you already know how to do that for the most part, but you might not be used to using the ingredients you will be limited to if you don't have refrigeration - powdered milk, dry ingredients that store well, lots of seeds (wheat, corn, beans, etc), canned goods, but you can forget about steaks and fresh chicken unless you are in port. Living the life is something you can start doing before you ever get the boat, you can just limit your cooking at home to the things you would have available on the boat, for example. Anyway, the point is, you can learn it.

Other general and useful skills include being able to swim, free dive, fish, etc, and most of that is again learned through experience. The boat is on the water, so it is obviously useful to be able to dive under the boat to take care of a few things, and most of the food is in the water so it is nice to be able to take it out of the water and put it over a fire! Learning about the weather is also very important, using weather instruments to predict changing conditions, etc.

Finally, Sailboat design ...

Here I think is where you're going to hit trouble, and I think it is what davidpm and some others were trying to get at. This really is complicated and is all about weather helm, boat balance, and all kinds of other stuff that takes a while to learn and that us newbies can only understand in theory. You don't have enough experience to evaluate whether a design is good or not except to know in very general terms such as whether it has a full keel or not, or what kind of rig it has. We (both of us) are not experienced enough to really know what features of a sailboats designs are important for what we want to do, so unfortunately (?) we simple have to listen to more experienced voices on this point and make the gamble. Sounds like that is what you were getting at when you said you had narrowed the boats down, but it doesn't sound like many of the experienced voices who know really came out and told you which ones were their favorites and why. Wish you luck!


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Hi AlanR77

First beg borrow buy or steal a copy of Shrimpy by Shane Acton.

Second do not be put off by the looks of a boat, I had the ugliest boat in most anchorages [ A Ryton 38 the guy who designed the back did not speak to the one on the front half ] but they can all take you to the same places and the sunsets will look just the same. All the time you are on your boat looking out at the pretty ones. It cost me £15K in 1992

You don't have to have refrigeration, ssb, radar, an NMEA chart plotter or even an engine.

A handheld VHF, a handheld GPS and start with paper charts and swap them as you go with people heading in the opposite direction. I did.

IMHO You do need a boat that will self steer, either with a small tillerpilot or a windvane. You can build your own windvane, I did but it took me a year to get it working though. If you go the tillerpilot route you do need batteries and a charging system. I would have both.

Other people have said it and I paraphrase but

GO SMALL, GO SIMPLE, GO NOW.

I did for seven years in my forties, best decision I ever made. Oh yes when things got tough I read Shrimpy, he did it on a 18 foot plywood bilge keeler.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Again, thanks for the replies. I do still watch my posts; they are linked to my email. Anyway, I've been spending alot of time in the library reading about hull design and cruising boats. The general consensus, as is on this forum, is that full keel boats are more forgiving in heavy weather. This, and taking into consideration the size of boats I am looking at. (27-32). 

I was on a fast track to gaining actual experience on the systems that make up a sailboat. Many people have replied to my offer to help them for free. As luck would have it though, I had an injury that took me off my feet for awhile. Surgery has a way of doing that. Things are looking up though and I will resume shortly. 

Now, back to boats. Maintenance is a non issue, I already am very good with engines, glass, wood and electrical systems. What I don't know is rigging, sails and masts. Working on it though. 

I really like the Triton's, they appeal to me in virtually every way. In addition, a very generous sailor in South Florida has offered to take me sailing in his Triton so I will get to actually feel the boat. I believe this will give me a good idea if I really want one or not. 

Sailing classes are on hold (injury at first but now due to the winter) but they will resume in the spring. Regarding the small boat; I do have a Hobie cat to play with when it gets warmer. Though they are overpowered and difficult to trim, I think it will at least pacify me while I restore and rebuild the Triton; provided I actually like them. Though it will be like driving a Corvette and then jumping in a Focus.......

Regarding the "Go small, go simple, go now"....I wish, however, I retire in six or seven years. At the ripe old age of 40..... I've done well in the Army and my retirement will be more than enough to sustain whatever ambitions I have. Especially if those ambitions are to see the entire world before I die...using the paid for 27-32' sailboat as the means. Between a paid for house, investments and that retirement, my dream is an achievable reality. Plus some...

Having stated all of that, I am in no real hurry. I want to do it right. the great thing about this is that by doing it right, I will inevitably make quite a few friends along the way. Through their experience, and the classes, I believe I will actually achieve my dreams. 

Now I hope you understand why a solid boat is of great concern to me. It is a variable that I want to take out of the equation. In my travels I am certain that through mistakes, bad luck and just nature in general I will inevitably get caught in some rough weather. I'd like my boat to stay with me.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

alanr77 said:


> k1vsk....you should try being in a combat zone for 9 tours...I have gained a new perspective on what harsh and reality really is all about...)) I am simply looking to slow everything down and enjoy everything that is right about the world. But that is for a VA forum...lets talk sailboats.


And I would like to thank you for that service. If you happen to make it to upstate New York consider you first beer paid for!


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