# Safely taking a 1980 36' hunter around the world



## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

Hi there,

Two years ago I bought a boat, having never set foot on one before. Since then I've been learning to sail on it and upgrading it like crazy. As I get closer to my leave date in 2 years, I am wondering what else I need to do to get my boat up to scratch to safely go around the world. Am I missing anything? I'd really like some input.

I'm trying to plan my upgrade schedule this year and I was wondering if anyone had any input into priorities etc. I am also trying to get out sailing as much as possible, and plan to take a month off work and circumnavigate Vancouver island in August. My previous longest trip was a two week trip around the san juan islands and the juan de fuca strait. I've sailed (deliberately) through a few gales with winds up to 40 knots as a test - though the seas have all been small. No real swells.

The boat is a Hunter 1980 36' sloop from the Cherubini era, with a fin keel, and a spade rudder protected by a small skeg. It's pretty heavily built, and the keel bolts seem sound - no water ingress from the bilge while underway or egress from the bilge when hauled out.

Really, I think I'm looking for reassurance that I can safely take this boat offshore and be comfortable. I am wary of it being an OAB (Old Ass Boat) and hope I have mitigated that


Currently I've

- replaced standing rigging (inc a brand new furler)
- replaced running rigging (aside from halyards which I will do later)
- added a spinnaker pole for DDW sailing
- checked the bulkhead tabbing
- added radar/AIS transponder
- redone all exterior/interior lights with LEDs
- ripped out entire AC/DC wiring system, redone with heat shrink crimps, tinned marine wire and a new panel
- redone entire plumbing system
- in the middle of building a windvane
- in the middle of installing a below decks autopilot
- added a diesel heater
- redid all mast wiring from scratch
- replaced VHF antenna and added a DSC VHF radio
- replaced all portholes with stainless steel NFM ones
- new chain and a 45lb mantus
- replaced rotten compression post
- new prop shaft/prop

I plan to

- replace all chainplates
- replace lifelines
- add jacklines
- add solar panels (and maybe a wind genny)
- add lithium battery system
- rewire engine electrical harness
- recore deck in soft areas
- redo non-skid (kiwigrip?) and gelcoat
- add a marine SSB (probably a icom802)
- replace sails
- add liftraft
- add EPIRB
- add trysail somehow
- inspect rudder

Is there anything I'm missing?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

alctel said:


> Really, I think I'm looking for reassurance that I can safely take this boat offshore and be comfortable.


Of course you can!

But if you have read similar threads here you know the answer you are going to start getting.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Sounds like you are doing the right things. Couple of points occur to me. We have a separate track and trysail and never have come close to using it. This item would be far down my list. On the other hand you do not mention what sails you have in the foretriangle. There is no way you can make do with only your furling jib. Also, changing headsails, in the conditions when you need to change headsails is a daunting task. You might consider having a removable inner stay on which you could put a staysail or storm jib as needed. This is not a casual undertaking as you need to make sure it will be strong enough on all corners, including having running backstays.

Balanced sail plan is absolutely critical to getting a vane to steer properly. Think about how you will achieve this on various points of sail with different sail plans up as winds change. 

What tankage do you have? Water maker or collecting water? How will you get water and diesel on to the boat. Many places do not have fuel docks.

I assume you are using some sort of chart plotter for primary navigation. What backup will you have? Paper charts are fine to have but can get very expensive if you are sailing a long way.

Sleeping is critical, make sure you have good lee cloths.

What sort of dinghy are you using and how will you store it offshore? 

If you are going with lithium batteries make sure that your charging system is setup for them.

You mention a pole for DDW. You don't actually sail DDW very often but sailing on broad reaches is very common. Think about how you will do this in various apparent wind strengths from less than 10 to 30 knots. Above this speed, the priorities change.

Dodger and bimini are both important.

Sailing around Vancouver Island sounds like a great trip but it is still coastal in nature. You might want to head straight offshore for 500+ miles and then come back. It will give you a better sense of passage making. On the east coast a trip to Bermuda and back nicely serves this purpose.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

You seem to have done the work on the boat but it is a long slog across the Pacific...You need boat time learning to handle difficult conditions and fixing things on the fly...I would take at least a year building skills.

Taking off a main sail and sewing it in 10 ft seas requires skill.

Good Luck Phil


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

killarney_sailor said:


> Sounds like you are doing the right things. Couple of points occur to me. We have a separate track and trysail and never have come close to using it. This item would be far down my list. On the other hand you do not mention what sails you have in the foretriangle. There is no way you can make do with only your furling jib. Also, changing headsails, in the conditions when you need to change headsails is a daunting task. You might consider having a removable inner stay on which you could put a staysail or storm jib as needed. This is not a casual undertaking as you need to make sure it will be strong enough on all corners, including having running backstays.
> 
> Balanced sail plan is absolutely critical to getting a vane to steer properly. Think about how you will achieve this on various points of sail with different sail plans up as winds change.
> 
> ...


I have thought about some kind of additional forestay but it seemed pretty daunting. I will think about it some more, you make very good points.

I have 80 gallon water and 30 gallon fuel tanks, with 12 gallons more fuel in deck jerry cans. I thought about a watermaker, but figured if I catch rain and conserve water I should be ok.

I have an NSS8 chartplotter, backup with be navionics on a tablet/phone. I also have a sextant which I am learning to use, though mostly for fun.

Lee cloths - didn't even think of these! I'll add it to list.

I have a portabote, which straps securely onto my lifelines/stanchions. In a real blow (over 40), I'd probably dump it in cabin.

Yup, I going to replace the entire system at once with Lithium. Charger and all.

From what I understand an asymmetrical spinn is great for broad reaches, but I don't have a bowsprit so that's out 

Thanks so much for the comments! I think I am going to head offshore once on the west coast of the island for a couple of days and head down that way.



Yorksailor said:


> You seem to have done the work on the boat but it is a long slog across the Pacific...You need boat time learning to handle difficult conditions and fixing things on the fly...I would take at least a year building skills.
> 
> Taking off a main sail and sewing it in 10 ft seas requires skill.
> 
> Good Luck Phil


Yeah, skill building is at least as important as boat equipment. One of the reasons I've been doing all the refitting myself!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Cherubini seemed to think it was designed and built for blue water cruising:










As long as you get the OAB issues addressed (36 years is definitely a long life) and squared away - I'm not sure what would stop you.


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

Reading that flyer - there is a clothes hamper and a bin?! And I don't remember my boat being that clean? 

I am also trying to work out what sails I need - but that's probably it's own topic, and I'm not getting new ones for another year.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I think you are thinking too much. You aren't planning to head straight out from the PNW are you? Get the boat basically straighten out and in good shape and start cruising and work on "add ons" as they seem to be worth getting.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Not sure if you had the boat surveyed when you purchased the boat, if not maybe contact a surveyor to go through the boat. I would also drop the rudder and check the bearings or gland, not sure of the setup. Regarding the rudder, it's wet and should probably be split to check the weldment. Basically, look closely at the structure.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

How about your through hulls and seacocks? How solid are they? Beefing up rudder pipe? A leak from there can be flat out awful to fix wile under way. How is the prop shaft and all the seals? Bulletproof bilge pumps? Extra smaller main with 2 reef points? Small hank on jib for inner stay? Rain catchment system? 
Just a few ideas for your consideration.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> There is no way you can make do with only your furling jib. Also, changing headsails, in the conditions when you need to change headsails is a daunting task. You might consider having a removable inner stay on which you could put a staysail or storm jib as needed. This is not a casual undertaking as you need to make sure it will be strong enough on all corners, including having running backstays.
> 
> Balanced sail plan is absolutely critical to getting a vane to steer properly. Think about how you will achieve this on various points of sail with different sail plans up as winds change.


I'm not so sure I buy this one. There are many, many boats out there circumnavigating as pure sloops with furlers.

I personally would opt for the Gale Sail before I started making significant structural modifications to a 36 year-old boat. Granted, if you're doing the Capes, that's one thing...but for a coconut run? I ain't seein' it.

Also, I'd ABSOLUTELY take the money I saved there and put it into a watermaker. Those things are among the best emergency and convenience technology you could have aboard.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Looks like a pretty thorough list. You could raise the lifelines to 35 inches when you change them. SS 1/19 rigging wire makes the best lifelines, next to a solid top rail. 

Beefing up the skeg would be a good idea.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm not so sure I buy this one. There are many, many boats out there circumnavigating as pure sloops with furlers.
> 
> Having been there, done that I would not particularly agree. A significant majority of boats doing circumnavigations have some way of drastically reducing sail area. There are lots of ways to do this: pure cutters, removable inner stays, ketches, even solent stays. With a sloop you can use a smaller headsail, but it is obviously much easier to put this on before heading out on a passage than changing on the fly.
> 
> ...


A watermaker is a nice thing to have for sure, more as a convenience than an emergency item, but it is not an essential.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

alctel said:


> I have 80 gallon water and 30 gallon fuel tanks, with 12 gallons more fuel in deck jerry cans. I thought about a watermaker, but figured if I catch rain and conserve water I should be ok.
> 
> You should be OK.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a very sound approach to getting ready.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> Having been there, done that I would not particularly agree. A significant majority of boats doing circumnavigations have some way of drastically reducing sail area. There are lots of ways to do this: pure cutters, removable inner stays, ketches, even solent stays. With a sloop you can use a smaller headsail, but it is obviously much easier to put this on before heading out on a passage than changing on the fly.


Our own MarkofSeaLife did pretty well without the above. I'm just saying it's perfectly doable.



killarney_sailor said:


> A watermaker is a nice thing to have for sure, more as a convenience than an emergency item, but it is not an essential.


If your tankage is relatively light for a weeks-long passage, it can very well become essential - or even an emergency item.

So, I know very well you've done it, kill. And I respect that for sure. But there are others even on this forum that have too. No one single way is all I'm saying.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Smack, you are saying there is no one way to do it, but then keep pushing the need for a water maker, which while nice certainly does add cost and complexity.

Note that Mark went through the Red Sea. Going to South Africa changes the calculus significantly. Who knows when, or if, the Red Sea route will reopen.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> Smack, you are saying there is no one way to do it, but then keep pushing the need for a water maker, which while nice certainly does add cost and complexity.


If I were to take my Hunter round the rock, I'd add a watermaker. Absolutely no doubt about it. I've heard too many stories from passage-making sailors about how it's one of the very best items aboard.

My tank holds 100 gallons. There are 3 of us (and a dog) aboard. Cooking, drinking, washing up - we go through a bit of water. That can become a serious issue on a long passage, or in areas with questionable water. So, the added cost and complexity in this case is completely worth it in my calculus.



killarney_sailor said:


> Note that Mark went through the Red Sea. Going to South Africa changes the calculus significantly. Who knows when, or if, the Red Sea route will reopen.


Okay. I'm certainly not going to diminish Mark's circ, just like I won't diminish yours. He did it...with a sloop and furler. So are many others. That's all I'm saying.

BTW - here's a video of how the Gale Sail works in deployment:






Far easier than striking/securing/stowing a head sail, then hanking on a new one. And the collar protects the jib from getting wind under it and unfurling.

I like the design.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Circumnavigating Vancouver Island in August should be carefully planned. It is called Fogust for a reason. I have been around over a dozen times.

If you want an ocean experience go out to Cobb Seamount after rounding Cape Scott. Get out at least as far as the South Brooks weather buoy. Or go out Juan de Fuca. 

I would also recommend a gennaker (asymmetrical). Broad reaching offshore is much easier on the crew and boat than running wing-on-wing, especially with a fin keel.

I like staysails. They lower the C of E and bring it aft. Furling and "storm" sails that go around furlers, raise the Co of E and move it forward. You may have to add runners if you add a staysail.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

I suspect, Mark is a much more seasoned sailor then the op. Also, Mark purchased a much newer boat and knows how to maintain it and he has written how he sails defensively. 

I don't think you can really equate the op to Mark.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

A few things that no one has mentioned is that these boats tended to have problems with their steering quadrants which were cast iron rather than forged steel or bronze and should be checked for pits, cracks, or excessive wear. Also vulnerable were the rudder posts and rudder internal structure. Some years of these boats had a steel frame glassed in to distribute rigging loads. I am not sure what year that started but they were definitely present by 1981 and should be checked and replaced if badly corroded. Lastly, the keel should be dropped and the keel bolts checked since 35 years is about the 'use by date' for keel bolts. A close friend did the Carribbean in a H36 and these were issues he encountered.

Jeff


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> I suspect, Mark is a much more seasoned sailor then the op. Also, Mark purchased a much newer boat and knows how to maintain it and he has written how he sails defensively.
> 
> I don't think you can really equate the op to Mark.


I wasn't. I was comparing sail and rigging configurations.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> If I were to take my Hunter round the rock, I'd add a watermaker. Absolutely no doubt about it. I've heard too many stories from passage-making sailors about how it's one of the very best items aboard.
> 
> My tank holds 100 gallons. There are 3 of us (and a dog) aboard. Cooking, drinking, washing up - we go through a bit of water. That can become a serious issue on a long passage, or in areas with questionable water. So, the added cost and complexity in this case is completely worth it in my calculus.
> 
> ...


We are going to have to agree to disagree on these things. All of us who want to sail long distances make a series of choices based on preferences, experience, advice, ... and budget. Then we go out and see how our choices worked out. What is the old expression? 'The problem is that the exam comes before the lesson.'

:cut_out_animated_em


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

When you say, so and so has this and he did just fine, you must also compare the so and so's.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

told you :wink


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Hey Don, you want a new sailor to take an old boat offshore without buttoning up important details?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

jackdale said:


> I would also recommend a gennaker (asymmetrical). Broad reaching offshore is much easier on the crew and boat than running wing-on-wing, especially with a fin keel.
> 
> I like staysails. They lower the C of E and bring it aft. Furling and "storm" sails that go around furlers, raise the Co of E and move it forward. You may have to add runners if you add a staysail.


I don't think it is a 'may', you will need runners. Adding a staysail is far from a simple add-on. Some careful engineering is needed and it might be very difficult to do if the tack fitting is somewhere over the middle of the V-berth.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

What I want is the time the OP has to do all this work. Wow. Good list.

If I were single handing, I would want to reduce the time necessary to leave the cockpit to an absolute minimum, especially those occasions where it was blowing hard. You can't always plan in advance. Also, you'll be fatigued most of the time.

I'm not the battery guy, so all I can offer is that I thought it was difficult to properly charge lithium with solar. Check that out, unless you know for sure. Also, I wonder, should you have a problem with them along the way, whether lithium batteries and their charging components are more difficult to replace.

As for water, with or without a watermaker, your onboard water should not all be stored in one tank. That's often the case on a boat of that size, although, I'm unfamiliar with your tankage. Crack a hose or lose a clamp and you could be dry before you know it.

At the least, one should have an emergency watermaker (but 50 million hand pumps for a thimble of water is truly for emergency... exaggerated of course)

Keel bolts should be inspected at the least. What they look like below the hull is not determinable by what they look like in the bilge.

I take it, you'll have both a wind vane and a wheel pilot. That's good. Does the below deck autopilot mean a remote controller for the wheel pilot? Nice option, but how do you expect to need it? The wind vane should do most of the work. Tweaking course to keep the sails full, while below making breakfast, is nice. However, I think real course corrections are something to be done in the cockpit, IMO. Both for sail trim as well as eyes on the horizon to see if someone has been maneuvering to avoid you.

Are you going to have AIS send and receive? 

Are you going to bolt a pactor modem to your SSB to be able to get weather downloads offshore?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> Hey Don, you want a new sailor to take an old boat offshore without buttoning up important details?


No and I never said that at all. From the original post I would say he is taking care of important items. But that's not what people what to discuss is it? Heck this guy hasn't even left and some are talking around rounding Capes!


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Don, nobody has said anything other than, this area should be checked, that area should be improved or he should do some serious shake down sails.


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## George P (Feb 1, 2016)

Alctel,
From my experience, (going on over two years cruising the Caribbean and eastern med), go out into the big stuff. You'll never know how you or your boat handles unless you experience gale conditions in the open ocean....this is when you will know what issues your boat has and it would best to set her up. For example, you mention that you "checked the bulkhead tabbing", I suggest you check it and other structural areas while the boat is under stress. One thing I have gathered that is of most importance to me is that when you are out there alone in the big stuff, you really want to feel secure in your boat period! Any uncertainty or mistrust should be addressed. If you're confident in the boat you will be more comfortable which results in less stress and less fatigue. Being able to rest when needed and is a major factor to me and is the main determinant for continuing the cruising life. 
Get out there and seriously test the boat. A lot of your questions will be answered.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I am not too happy about the Portaboat lashed "securely" to the life lines and to be moved below in bad weather. If you ever get into the sort of weather you need to move it down below then it will definitely not be safe to do so. A single breaking wave will rip the Portaboat, lifelines and stanchions off your deck leaving large holes behind. 

I am also not happy about lithium batteries. Yes they have superior capacity but they also have very specific and demanding charge requirements. Get that wrong and you often have a fire which is very difficult to extinguish. Also if the charger goes wrong it will be hard to find an alternative in the boonies. I would stick to the tried and tested golf cart batteries with a Balmar alternator and smart regulator plus a rear arch and some solar. 

Lots of people have circumnavigated with just a roller furler genoa and a main. I might consider adding a second roller furler with a heavy weight 90% headsail for heavy weather. The two headsails should have whisker poles and will make a good cruisers downwind rig. You could also consider the twistle rig.

Finally and this one is important, you need a copy of Shrimpy by Shane Acton. Whenever you feel that you do not have enough boat or enough experience read a chapter. He circumnavigated in an 18 ft plywood boat. He had almost no sailing experience when he left the UK.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Alctel... I would suggest Cruiser Forum under Destinations for people who have actual experience offshore and sailing to specific areas you are wanting to cruise. There you can discuss actual needs for you cruising and equipment you will actually need. Yes you will need a water maker (I would definitely get one), see what works for a dinghy and Port-a-boat is not my idea of the required equipment for cruising in the waters you want.

I believe you're ready with what you have done on the boat besides the extra sails required. Thru hull fittings would be the next solid requirement if you have not done so. Most of the other outfitting on the boat can be done at the destinations you seek for much less money. But don't dwell too much as many here are 'lake sailors', coastal cruisers only, and least are the ones with project boats that have never left the dock or trailer, and the armchair sailors whose use of the keyboard is beyond measure.

Here is a family who have left their port for cruising on a Hans Christian which to me should never have left sight of land yet the family seems to have sailed from Victoria BC, rounded the Horn of Africa, Caribbean, through the Panama Canal, straight to Hawaii, and then back to Victoria... sailing to destinations only imagined by many here. Does this boat look seaworthy to many here... would they not have chastised this sailor taking his family on bluewater trips with the condition of this boat and YET they have cruised with no complaints or issues... many have done so and there are countless cruisers (young and old) doing it and makeshift boats that don't even compare to your Hunter and what you done to her... You've done a magnificent job so far...






Good Luck and hope you make it out there and post videos for all to admire! :2 boat:


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

We have 200g of water. We do passages usually with three. However, think,the watermaker is a huge plus. Just put in a Cape Horn extreme. Advantages are no fancy electronics. Small draw dc machine. Easy to decommission/ recommission. At present 200g allows a shower every third day snow birding. This is a huge pick me up. With water maker can be near daily and can wash clothes so no passage pimples on your butt. Salt crystals in your clothes cut at your skin. At present we are plumbed to flush with either salt or fresh and have salt or fresh at sinks. This is a easy way to save water. Hear from several experienced cruisers depending on rain is a fond wish and just not practical. Seems sooner or later most small boat long term cruisers get a watermaker.
Think steering is a big deal. If doing AP and vane ( best set up) think about adding emergency rudder capability to the vane. We are just starting to install a Hydrovane for this purpose. Have that set up with tiller pilot added as back up to below deck RM long arm. May also want to get extra arm for AP depending on funds. We have held off but this has been a frequent suggestion. Rudder indicator and AP electronics rarely break and if they do you will know after a couple of months of coastal sailing. AP can steer if main wheel steering poops the bed and you won't use it much anyway.
Strongly suggest way to fly different headsails. For us 135 genny, 90 Solent, and storm jib on removable baby stay has been ideal. Think trysail silly on anything under 50'. Just add third reef. Go at least one weight up on your sails. You may have days and days of good breeze. It's different then coastal. Your sails are always up and always in the uv. Once your sails are blown out they are blown out. If you go Dacron go the highest grade.
Was surprised at added expense for appropriate clothes. Finally both of us wear no cotton at all just high tech synthetics. Follow websites to buy out of season. Makes a surprising difference in quality of life.
You should have a great time. Good luck.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> Don, nobody has said anything other than, this area should be checked, that area should be improved or he should do some serious shake down sails.


Then you haven't been reading very closely.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Good day Matt,

The best and most important thing you can do is to get off the dock. Do some sailing. Do some cruising. You might consider working your way down the West Coast and into the Caribbean and spending some time there. Yes, it is the "wrong direction" according to conventional wisdom for your dreams of circumnavigating. It does get you to lovely conditions, great sailing, and some very good opportunities for building experience and confidence. It also puts a number of boating centers in striking distance for final preparations for the Pacific unless you decide to go east-about.



alctel said:


> I am wondering what else I need to do to get my boat up to scratch to safely go around the world.


If you do what books, magazine, and Internet posters tell you that you must have you will never get off the dock. I suggest you want the experience to make good choices.

Your plan to sail around Vancouver Island is a good start. Do that as soon as you can, and before you buy a bunch of stuff.



alctel said:


> I've sailed (deliberately) through a few gales with winds up to 40 knots as a test - though the seas have all been small. No real swells.


Crossing the Pacific there will be swells. Sometimes there will be swells with no wind. Sometimes there will be wind with no swells. Sometimes there will be lots of both; lots and lots of both. Things are different off soundings.



alctel said:


> Really, I think I'm looking for reassurance that I can safely take this boat offshore and be comfortable.


In all honesty it would not be my choice but the best boat to cruise is the one you have. Go sailing.



alctel said:


> - added radar/AIS transponder


Fine. Where is the radar dome? Where are the VHF antennas? Did you use a splitter (please say no)?



alctel said:


> - in the middle of building a windvane
> - in the middle of installing a below decks autopilot
> - added a diesel heater


All good things. Especially the heater. You will be so much more comfortable in so many really interesting places.



alctel said:


> - replaced VHF antenna and added a DSC VHF radio


See questions above. If I understand Canadian law correctly you need an SRC and LRC. Have you sat for those yet?



alctel said:


> - add lithium battery system


Why? Technology is a moving target but today $(even Loonies)/Ah/yr of service life is still best for golf cart batteries. See Maine Sail's articles on the subject. Unless you are severely weight or volume limited stick with golf carts (<- opinion). Shoot for a 600 - 800 Ah capacity for crossing oceans.



alctel said:


> - recore deck in soft areas


This worries me. Did you have a detailed survey done by a credible surveyor? Where are the soft spots and are they structural?



alctel said:


> - add a marine SSB (probably a icom802)


I sell and install long range communications - SSB and satellite. I prefer SSB. Today, based on your schedule (even if you take my advise to get off the dock), I would hold off. Icom has a new SSB radio in the FCC and DoC certification processes. If they are successful (and they will be eventually) the price on 802s will come down and the new radio may be worth exploring.



alctel said:


> - replace sails


A reasonable choice. Go sailing. Unless the current sails are completely past service life you would rather make early mistakes on old sails than new ones. Get new ones in San Diego or Bradenton or Ft Lauderdale.



alctel said:


> - add trysail somehow


See below.



killarney_sailor said:


> We have a separate track and trysail and never have come close to using it.


I absolutely agree. There are two really good reasons for a trysail: 1. it protects your mainsail from damage so you can really sail again after weather and 2. it avoids the risk of a flying boom if your gooseneck fails. A trysail is bulky and difficult to store. You better have it bagged on deck with its own track if you ever plan to use it. Shorthanded in heavy weather you are not going to dig out sails from storage and rig them. My choice is a deep third reef and the upper portion of the main in heavier cloth. Read the articles Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger have written about the winds they encountered circling the globe. High winds are a small proportion of the time, but the reality is you need a plan to deal with it. That may not include the "conventional wisdom" of a trysail.

I further strongly agree with killarney_sailor on the value of a staysail. When you reef a main the center of effort (CE) moves forward toward the middle of the boat (good). When you roll up a furling headsail the CE moves forward toward the bow (bad). A removable inner forestay for a staysail allows you to "change gears" down and move the CE back toward the mast (good).

Be very very suspicious of solutions like the Gale Sail. In my professional opinion that is one of the silliest ideas that some marketing department has every come up with. In heavy seas and impending or onset heavy weather you have to furl the headsail, lash it, remove (how high are they?) or reroute the sheets, and--with the bow plunging up and down (you are wearing an inflatable PFD right? when will it inflate?)--you have to hoist the wet Gale Sail up the wet furled headsail. The late Jon Eisberg and I would roll on the floor laughing about the whole idea. There are no short cuts.

Now my solutions are not necessarily right for you (different boat, different sailor). I have a furling headsail and carry a heavy #3 (105% ish) and a very light #2 (135). I don't generally change them at sea - I leave the dock with the #3 on the furler and carry the #2 for estuary sailing and coastal cruising. I have a hank-on staysail with an old-fashioned reef in it on a removable inner forestay. When I head offshore the inner forestay is rigged and the staysail is hanked on and the bag tied down on the foredeck. Sheets are tied on and run to the cockpit. I do not want to be lugging sails around the deck when things go pear shaped. Anyone that feels differently hasn't been at sea very much if at all, and certainly hasn't been responsible.

+1 on killarney_sailors's suggestion of running backs. I recently saved the mast on a delivery boat when the backstay failed because we had runners.



killarney_sailor said:


> Balanced sail plan is absolutely critical to getting a vane to steer properly. Think about how you will achieve this on various points of sail with different sail plans up as winds change.


I don't usually quote just because I agree but this is critical. It makes all the difference.



killarney_sailor said:


> I assume you are using some sort of chart plotter for primary navigation. What backup will you have? Paper charts are fine to have but can get very expensive if you are sailing a long way.


I greatly prefer dedicated plotters to alternatives but computer navigation (like OpenCPN which I highly recommend) and even phones and tablets make great backups. I mark up pilot charts with hazards of concern and use those as a paper back-up for ocean passages. I want pilot charts anyway and see no need to pay for big pieces of paper with a lot of white on them. YMMV.



killarney_sailor said:


> What sort of dinghy are you using and how will you store it offshore?


Good questions, and tie into the removable inner forestay. They are related - there has to be room. You either store your dinghy upside down on the foredeck (on passage) or deflate it entirely and store it below, which means saving storage for it.



killarney_sailor said:


> Dodger and bimini are both important.


+1 for the bimini. +10 for the dodger.



alctel said:


> I have thought about some kind of additional forestay but it seemed pretty daunting. I will think about it some more, you make very good points.


Think hard. In the end, less daunting than a trysail and track.



alctel said:


> I have 80 gallon water and 30 gallon fuel tanks, with 12 gallons more fuel in deck jerry cans. I thought about a watermaker, but figured if I catch rain and conserve water I should be ok.


How many people on the boat?

Lots of people have crossed the Pacific with fuel capacity that small but it may well not be fun. Your solar charging better be up to the task, and you should have a plan for using less electricity. How will you get weather information on board if you are conserving power?



alctel said:


> I have a portabote, which straps securely onto my lifelines/stanchions. In a real blow (over 40), I'd probably dump it in cabin.


Bad idea. *sigh* How will you tie it down in the cabin? How will you deal with the space it takes up? On deck it is windage. Below it is a hazard. Can you store it so it won't move and isn't in the way as you move from cockpit to galley to head to where you sleep?



alctel said:


> From what I understand an asymmetrical spinn is great for broad reaches, but I don't have a bowsprit so that's out


Not true. Lots of people fly them off the anchor roller. You have to pay attention to the tack line fair lead, particularly at the pulpit. If you decide to buy a spinnaker pole you can fly an asym to windward and increase your projected area and head deeper downwind.

In all of your decision-making I suggest you consider less "can I" and more "should I." Who will it really work when everything is moving, sometimes a lot, and you are tired and wet. How will you keep water and salt out of the cabin? How will you feed yourself? Can you use the head on both tacks? Is there a place to brace your feet? Can you sleep comfortably on both tacks? Are you close to the cockpit? If you are single-handed how will you wake yourself to maintain a watch?

Follow your dream.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

guitarguy56 said:


> Alctel... I would suggest Cruiser Forum under Destinations for people who have actual experience offshore and sailing to specific areas you are wanting to cruise. There you can discuss actual needs for you cruising and equipment you will actually need. ...


Nothing at all against CF and I pop in there myself, but SN has offshore/circumnavigators who have responded to this thread.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

outbound said:


> Just put in a Cape Horn extreme.


A good friend of mine is a Spectra distributor (not just a dealer). He tells me the electronics are the greatest cause of warranty service. The Cape Horn Extreme is a great watermaker, a little more manual, and very reliable.



outbound said:


> At present 200g allows a shower every third day snow birding. This is a huge pick me up. With water maker can be near daily and can wash clothes so no passage pimples on your butt.


Being clean really is a good point. Water capacity is only part of that. Head arrangements are also. If you are going to shower how do you brace yourself? If you use baby wipes were do you sit and where do the used wipes go, even temporarily. Can you shave without butchering yourself or ending up with a door handle in your kidney?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> I am not saying that a water maker is not a nice thing to have - just that it is not an essential thing to have. We have one and at times it proved quite useful, but we tend to be fairly economical with water use. Different strokes for different folks. If water makers are essential, how did cruisers manage before they were invented? How do cruisers manage now who choose not to have one?


I personally don't use the logic that I should eschew good technology that makes my boat far safer for long passages because I feel the need to sail like the early Polynesians. Like you say, different strokes.



killarney_sailor said:


> Certainly not trying to diminish Mark's achievement at all. He is a great guy, spent some time with him in St. Martin. You did not address my comment that going around South Africa is different than going the Red Sea route. (Actually we found going around SA pretty easy; it was getting there (and sometimes leaving there) that are the tough parts.


I think you answered the question pretty well yourself. It sounds like you guys had a fairly easy time of it - which typically happens if one pays close attention to seasons and weather. Nothing wrong with waiting for the right window.



killarney_sailor said:


> I have seen the video. Note how much wind and the sea state while they show how easy it is to use. Now picture doing it on the narrow pointy end of a monohull with an anchor or two and chain and cleats underfoot when it is blowing 40 (and increasing) with confused 15' foot seas.


With this logic and approach, how exactly is everything easier if you're striking the headsail, unhanking it, gathering it, stowing it, then pulling out the staysail, unfolding it, hanking it on, and raising it..."on the narrow pointy end of a monohull with an anchor or two and chain and cleats underfoot when it is blowing 40 (and increasing) with confused 15' foot seas." I would have been off that pointy end FAR sooner with the Gale Sale.

So far I think JackD makes the best point about the GS keeping the CoE forward. It is obviously better to move it back in big conditions. But I still think that overall the GS is a safer and much more practical approach than adding stays, runner, chainplates, and sails to your sloop.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Adding an inner forestay allows you to have a tough storm sail, at the ready, on a furler. No argument can suggest an easier set up. Expensive, I will grant. 

As for the encouragement to visit another forum to get better perspective. I say nonsense.


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

Wow, lots of good stuff here. Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond, I'll try to answer everyone but sorry if I miss you!



Don0190 said:


> I think you are thinking too much. You aren't planning to head straight out from the PNW are you? Get the boat basically straighten out and in good shape and start cruising and work on "add ons" as they seem to be worth getting.


I need to stay for another two years anyway, I have a bunch of debt to finish paying off and I want some savings. My job pays a lot and my expenses are low (I live on my boat) so two years should do it.



Shockwave said:


> Not sure if you had the boat surveyed when you purchased the boat, if not maybe contact a surveyor to go through the boat. I would also drop the rudder and check the bearings or gland, not sure of the setup. Regarding the rudder, it's wet and should probably be split to check the weldment. Basically, look closely at the structure.


Had a survey, not convinced how great it was. I'm hauling out and dropping rudder this weekend. The stuffing box is leaking like a champ so that needs to be redone.



krisscross said:


> How about your through hulls and seacocks? How solid are they? Beefing up rudder pipe? A leak from there can be flat out awful to fix wile under way. How is the prop shaft and all the seals? Bulletproof bilge pumps? Extra smaller main with 2 reef points? Small hank on jib for inner stay? Rain catchment system?
> Just a few ideas for your consideration.


The original gate valves are not there anymore, but the replacements are looking a bit... green. I'm down to two anyway as I switched to a natures head and just have a sink and an engine one now. New prop shaft and prop and PSS gland. 3 auto bilge pumps, though I kinda hate float switches.



Brent Swain said:


> Looks like a pretty thorough list. You could raise the lifelines to 35 inches when you change them. SS 1/19 rigging wire makes the best lifelines, next to a solid top rail.
> 
> Beefing up the skeg would be a good idea.


I'll look at doing that, thanks. Probably need new stanchions.



jackdale said:


> Circumnavigating Vancouver Island in August should be carefully planned. It is called Fogust for a reason. I have been around over a dozen times.
> 
> If you want an ocean experience go out to Cobb Seamount after rounding Cape Scott. Get out at least as far as the South Brooks weather buoy. Or go out Juan de Fuca.
> 
> ...


These are great tips, thank you! I have a foghorn and radar and will look at that route. I'll add the gennaker to the thought list.



Jeff_H said:


> A few things that no one has mentioned is that these boats tended to have problems with their steering quadrants which were cast iron rather than forged steel or bronze and should be checked for pits, cracks, or excessive wear. Also vulnerable were the rudder posts and rudder internal structure. Some years of these boats had a steel frame glassed in to distribute rigging loads. I am not sure what year that started but they were definitely present by 1981 and should be checked and replaced if badly corroded. Lastly, the keel should be dropped and the keel bolts checked since 35 years is about the 'use by date' for keel bolts. A close friend did the Carribbean in a H36 and these were issues he encountered.
> 
> Jeff


thanks Jeff, I will check the quadrant this weekend when I drop the rudder. Mine is without the steel frame as far as I know - it's a 1980 boat and I haven't seen any sign of it. I don't want to drop the keel unless I absolutely have to, are keel bolt failures common on boats this age?



Minnewaska said:


> What I want is the time the OP has to do all this work. Wow. Good list.
> 
> If I were single handing, I would want to reduce the time necessary to leave the cockpit to an absolute minimum, especially those occasions where it was blowing hard. You can't always plan in advance. Also, you'll be fatigued most of the time.
> 
> ...


Solar and lithium work fine with each other, just you have to design the entire system around the lithium cells, very much not a drop and go kinda dealy.

Two tanks, but linked by a crossfeed system. I may put a valve of some kind in there, you bring up a good point. I will get an emergency watermaker I think, though they don't look fun to use.

I said 'below deck' to mean its a heavy duty one, bolted onto the rudder shaft, not a wheel pilot. Not sure if I'm getting a remote yet.

My AIS is send and receive, and will get a pactor modem.



George P said:


> Alctel,
> From my experience, (going on over two years cruising the Caribbean and eastern med), go out into the big stuff. You'll never know how you or your boat handles unless you experience gale conditions in the open ocean....this is when you will know what issues your boat has and it would best to set her up. For example, you mention that you "checked the bulkhead tabbing", I suggest you check it and other structural areas while the boat is under stress. One thing I have gathered that is of most importance to me is that when you are out there alone in the big stuff, you really want to feel secure in your boat period! Any uncertainty or mistrust should be addressed. If you're confident in the boat you will be more comfortable which results in less stress and less fatigue. Being able to rest when needed and is a major factor to me and is the main determinant for continuing the cruising life.
> Get out there and seriously test the boat. A lot of your questions will be answered.


All good points and what I am hoping to achieve this summer. Confidence is a huge factor!


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

TQA said:


> I am not too happy about the Portaboat lashed "securely" to the life lines and to be moved below in bad weather. If you ever get into the sort of weather you need to move it down below then it will definitely not be safe to do so. A single breaking wave will rip the Portaboat, lifelines and stanchions off your deck leaving large holes behind.
> 
> I am also not happy about lithium batteries. Yes they have superior capacity but they also have very specific and demanding charge requirements. Get that wrong and you often have a fire which is very difficult to extinguish. Also if the charger goes wrong it will be hard to find an alternative in the boonies. I would stick to the tried and tested golf cart batteries with a Balmar alternator and smart regulator plus a rear arch and some solar.
> 
> ...


Point taken about the portabote, though not sure about the lithium batteries. Setup with a correctly designed system, and they are a lot safer than lead acid. I'll grab that book, thanks!



guitarguy56 said:


> Here is a family who have left their port for cruising on a Hans Christian which to me should never have left sight of land yet the family seems to have sailed from Victoria BC, rounded the Horn of Africa, Caribbean, through the Panama Canal, straight to Hawaii, and then back to Victoria... sailing to destinations only imagined by many here. Does this boat look seaworthy to many here... would they not have chastised this sailor taking his family on bluewater trips with the condition of this boat and YET they have cruised with no complaints or issues... many have done so and there are countless cruisers (young and old) doing it and makeshift boats that don't even compare to your Hunter and what you done to her... You've done a magnificent job so far...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the video link!



outbound said:


> We have 200g of water. We do passages usually with three. However, think,the watermaker is a huge plus. Just put in a Cape Horn extreme. Advantages are no fancy electronics. Small draw dc machine. Easy to decommission/ recommission. At present 200g allows a shower every third day snow birding. This is a huge pick me up. With water maker can be near daily and can wash clothes so no passage pimples on your butt. Salt crystals in your clothes cut at your skin. At present we are plumbed to flush with either salt or fresh and have salt or fresh at sinks. This is a easy way to save water. Hear from several experienced cruisers depending on rain is a fond wish and just not practical. Seems sooner or later most small boat long term cruisers get a watermaker.
> Think steering is a big deal. If doing AP and vane ( best set up) think about adding emergency rudder capability to the vane. We are just starting to install a Hydrovane for this purpose. Have that set up with tiller pilot added as back up to below deck RM long arm. May also want to get extra arm for AP depending on funds. We have held off but this has been a frequent suggestion. Rudder indicator and AP electronics rarely break and if they do you will know after a couple of months of coastal sailing. AP can steer if main wheel steering poops the bed and you won't use it much anyway.
> Strongly suggest way to fly different headsails. For us 135 genny, 90 Solent, and storm jib on removable baby stay has been ideal. Think trysail silly on anything under 50'. Just add third reef. Go at least one weight up on your sails. You may have days and days of good breeze. It's different then coastal. Your sails are always up and always in the uv. Once your sails are blown out they are blown out. If you go Dacron go the highest grade.
> Was surprised at added expense for appropriate clothes. Finally both of us wear no cotton at all just high tech synthetics. Follow websites to buy out of season. Makes a surprising difference in quality of life.
> You should have a great time. Good luck.


Thank you for your thoughts - I think a heavy 3rd reefed main may be the way to go. Not sure of a good way to get a emergency rudder without spending a lot of money.



SVAuspicious said:


> Good day Matt,
> 
> The best and most important thing you can do is to get off the dock. Do some sailing. Do some cruising. You might consider working your way down the West Coast and into the Caribbean and spending some time there. Yes, it is the "wrong direction" according to conventional wisdom for your dreams of circumnavigating. It does get you to lovely conditions, great sailing, and some very good opportunities for building experience and confidence. It also puts a number of boating centers in striking distance for final preparations for the Pacific unless you decide to go east-about.
> 
> ...


Thank you for all the thoughts!

The radar dome is mounted above the spreaders, the AIS antenna is on the spreaders. VHF is at masthead. No splitter, and I set it up so I can get the VHF or AIS to use either antenna in case of a loss.

I have all the licenses I need. I am actually pretty fastidious about that stuff, sometimes I feel like the only person who is licensed correctly!

I will look at golf cart batteries again. I can get 400AH of lithium for 2,500 CAD with a case, golf cart lead acid is 1200 CAD for 690 AH (which still isn't as much usable AH as 400AH lithium)

This doesn't include all the extra stuff I'd need to replace and add for a lithium system, but we don't really have access to cheap golf cart batteries like you do in the US, so the price difference isn't as much as you'd think.

Yes, I got a survey done by an accredited surveyor, though at the time I didn't really know the right questions to ask. There is a soft spot on the port deck. It's not structural, and on the boat anything below the waterline is solid glass. The chainplates pass through the deck and are through-bolted to huge fibreglass extrusions.

Great tip about the SSB, I didn't realise that. Will def hold off until icom gets it sorted.

The more I think I about it the more I think I may just get a strong main with a heavily reinforced 3rd reef. A lot of the books I read talk a lot about the important about moving the center of pressure aft on the boat, which is a problem with a storm jib on a sloop.

Just me on the boat.

If I don't have a portaboat, I'm not sure where i am going to store a dingy. I can't really fit anything on the foredeck without completely blocking off the entire foredeck, and towing just seems a terrible idea. I may try to make a storage point down below so I can put it and tie it up securely while on passages.

I think your last point is very valid and why I just need to get out there more.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Smack
Respectfully disagree. Once while I was in my early 30s helped out on a short passage. Eastport Maine to P town MA. Got caught out. Boat was a cutter. Stay sail reefed by dropping it moving sheets of clew up to a cringle and tack down to a cringle. Easy peasy right? Wrong was floating off the deck as green water went by. Can't image doing a gale rider now.
Also seems to be a good idea to at least get on the correct, more benign side of a low before it gets to you. So often you want to keep a good SA up so you can make tracks. Putting on the gale rider before it gets bad doesn't allow that. Rigging your storm jib but not flying it does allow that. Then you just go forward to release the sail tie(s) holding it down. Go back to cockpit. Roll the headsail you are using and raise the storm jib. Your exposure on the foredeck is dramatically decreased.
Finally, don't like the idea of any rubbing and chafing even the sun cover of a jib. Believe in KISS. Believe in runners both for redundancy and to prevent pumping.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

alctel said:


> ...
> 
> If I don't have a portaboat, I'm not sure where i am going to store a dingy. I can't really fit anything on the foredeck without completely blocking off the entire foredeck, and towing just seems a terrible idea. I may try to make a storage point down below so I can put it and tie it up securely while on passages...


I sailed a bit up the coast on a Hunter 36. Dinghy was stored on the foredeck. Hoisted on and off the boat using the halyard. We sailed through a major storm near the Stream and it was fine.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Guitar guy

Isn't the Captain of Vixen a shipwright? That is a very tough though slow boat with a very competent Captain. There would be very few who could rightly question their decisions process.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

If you do a Hydrovane like wind vane all you need is to add a tiller arm. Short money even on a Hydrovane. If you do a servo pendulum it's more complicated and more money. Please note all the ocean races require a way to rig an emergency rudder. Many abandonments are not from sinking boats but lost rudders. You might want to read what michael Keyworth wrote about this he figured out an effective system using a drogue to steer after intentionally removing his rudder from his personal older swan. Think it's on either CCA, OCC or SAS websites. Can't remember which one sorry.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Keel bolt replacement seems pretty high on the list. If your keel falls off you are screwed. I don't think I would play the odds with my life and home in the strength of a few 35 year old bolts to hold up to the stress cycles of a circumnavigation. Replacing a few bolts and inspection would allow me to sleep a whole lot better when the wind and waves are howling outside. There are somethings you can do with out, repair or forgo but your keel is not one of them.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Guitar guy
> 
> Isn't the Captain of Vixen a shipwright? That is a very tough though slow boat with a very competent Captain. There would be very few who could rightly question their decisions process.


Yes he does mention he works in a boatyard (shipwright) but that in itself does not mean 'competent' sailor just as a competent sailor does not infer 'shipwright' competent... many a lost boat by competent sailors but lacking in the skills to keep the boat afloat.

UMM... 70 year olds get saved 7 times by Coast Guard thread ring a bell? It's a wooden boat and that said can have many an issue out on the 'scary seas'.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

What do they call a wooden boat, an amalgamation of leaks waiting to happen? Vixen did look pretty stout though.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Alctel... Do not be put off so quick on the lithium batteries... I use these with a dedicated (not used with house or starting battery bank) charger strictly monitored and maintained for use by our electrical needs. The house battery and the starter battery is charged by regular lead acid charging system. The two are never connected and the lithium batteries supply power to the inverter. The lithium batteries can be hooked up in emergency for starter or house use... but so far there has never been a need and they have been very safe. If you are concerned about thermal runaway or fires you could place them in a fireproof box if need be... I really don't see a need for concern as many do here... but that is neither here nor there as I prefer this method as long as I prove to myself they are safe.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> What do they call a wooden boat, an amalgamation of leaks waiting to happen? Vixen did look pretty stout though.


I'm sure so does the Hunter 36.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

You may want to look closer at Vixen and crew. Crew and the boat are extremely competent and strength to weight ratio it is very hard to beat wood. Not to mention wooden boats repair ability. Vixen is much more simply fitted then most are comfortable with but is far more sturdy and capable them most fiberglass boats. Especially the 30 year old solid hull boats many pundits cite as strong. As we all know all boats have trade offs and maintenance is a big one for wooden boats but seeing that the owner is a very capable shipwright with vast experience building and maintaining wooden boats that does not play a significant role in suitability to their chosen vessel. As much as many would like to discount wood the majority of our glass reinforce plastics are cored with wood, have wood bulkheads, and wood stringers. Wood is an excellent material and no matter how far we seem to come with synthetic materials wood is unbeatable for many purposes. Weight to strength, cost, and stress cycle tolerance it is very hard to beat wood.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Out: slimmer boats with longer root chords have better directional stability. If they loose their rudder it may be possible to steer the boat by towing warps. Tough to do with fatter boats with higher aspect ratio keels.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Stout or an amalgamation of leaks?


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

I do not know Vixens construction and I am not a wooden boat expert. In fact I strive to be a beginner in everything I do because I always know less then there is to know about any subject. If ones does not they are merely comparing them selves to others and not the subject at hand. A one off well constructed cold molded sailboat should be lighter, stronger, cheaper and stiffer then just about any synthetic comparison. If cold molded and sheathed in glass and epoxy for maintenance, and abrasion resistance and not for strength will be more durable and more resistance to leaks then just about any GRP sailboat.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

There was an interesting article in GOB this month about a trysail and the advantages it brings over a deep reefed main. One thing you should also consider with any of your systems is how easy is it going to be to get it repaired in some far flung port? Lithium is not exactly common technology for the boating masses at this point so could potentially cause some problems for you.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Stout or an amalgamation of leaks?


Well you'll have to talk to the OP about that... Guarantee many more boats leak that shouldn't (non production boats).


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

I think the only thing that doesn't leak is a steel ball welded shut.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

If wood was the preferred method of construction for boats today (and we're not talking about the Good Old Wooden Boats category) then why aren't major boat builders making hulls out of them ie: Swan, Oyster, Hinckley, B/J/C/H, etc? 

I too love a old beautiful wooden boat sailing some coastal waters and that's fine... but hey that's me.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Rob the rich comes to mind...


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> I personally don't use the logic that I should eschew good technology that makes my boat far safer for long passages because I feel the need to sail like the early Polynesians. Like you say, different strokes.
> 
> I would just disagree with the idea that a water maker contributes much to safety. I would certainly agree that it adds to convenience and quality of life in terms of freshwater showers and the like.
> 
> ...


It is interesting that the people in this thread who have been skeptical (to be polite) about the GS are people with a lot of offshore experience.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

guitarguy56 said:


> If wood was the preferred method of construction for boats today (and we're not talking about the Good Old Wooden Boats category) then why aren't major boat builders making hulls out of them ie: Swan, Oyster, Hinckley, B/J/C/H, etc?
> 
> I too love a old beautiful wooden boat sailing some coastal waters and that's fine... but hey that's me.


Simply cost. Cold molded is labor intensive but relatively simple. Fine for one off boat. If you want to make many copies of the same hull it is significantly cheaper to use molds. There are many many ways to build a boat all with inherent trade offs.

I did not say waterproof. I said more resistant to leaks. Waterproof hardly exists. It is more varying degrees of resistance over time.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Smack
> Respectfully disagree. Once while I was in my early 30s helped out on a short passage. Eastport Maine to P town MA. Got caught out. Boat was a cutter. Stay sail reefed by dropping it moving sheets of clew up to a cringle and tack down to a cringle. Easy peasy right? Wrong was floating off the deck as green water went by. Can't image doing a gale rider now.


I completely agree. I've worked the bow on a PSC 37 cutter in an off-shore race in some very steep, bucky waves. Sails were hank-ons and me and the other bowman were very wet and held on for dear life. But it had to be done. (I actually loved it BTW.)

So, my point is not necessarily an endorsement of the Gale Sail per se, but if you're going to have to go to the bow anyway in the stink, I'd much rather furl the genny and hoist a single sail than deal with multiple sails - especially if I had to spend thousands of dollars turning my sloop into a cutter just to have that pleasure. No thanks.

In any case, though the headsail will have horrible shape, as long as your gear is good, you can fly reducing amounts of that head sail in increasing winds - down to just a scrap if necessary. A boat with this configuration and a third reef in the main can handle some serious conditions. After that, it's probably time to run off a drogue anyway...not _go back to the bow_ to douse and store sails.

So - though I understand the general logic, no, I'm not convinced of the removable-forestay/cutter argument. It has a useful window for sure in terms of CoE....but not enough to start completely changing the boat in my book.



outbound said:


> Also seems to be a good idea to at least get on the correct, more benign side of a low before it gets to you. So often you want to keep a good SA up so you can make tracks. Putting on the gale rider before it gets bad doesn't allow that. Rigging your storm jib but not flying it does allow that. *Then you just go forward* to release the sail tie(s) holding it down. Go back to cockpit. Roll the headsail you are using and raise the storm jib. Your exposure on the foredeck is dramatically decreased.


Weren't we just talking about how you don't want to do that? If you're going to go forward, you're going to go forward. And there's no reason you can't have a GS stored and ready to deploy while still flying your headsail.

Again, a good headsail on a good furler should cover most of the gears you need in the majority of conditions.



outbound said:


> Finally, don't like the idea of any rubbing and chafing even the sun cover of a jib. Believe in KISS. Believe in runners both for redundancy and to prevent pumping.


Okay. Do what you want. But I sure don't see the KISS principal at work in adding all this rigging to a sloop.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> If you do a Hydrovane like wind vane all you need is to add a tiller arm. Short money even on a Hydrovane. If you do a servo pendulum it's more complicated and more money. Please note all the ocean races require a way to rig an emergency rudder. Many abandonments are not from sinking boats but lost rudders. You might want to read what michael Keyworth wrote about this he figured out an effective system using a drogue to steer after intentionally removing his rudder from his personal older swan. Think it's on either CCA, OCC or SAS websites. Can't remember which one sorry.


It's a great demonstration:


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> It is interesting that the people in this thread who have been skeptical (to be polite) about the GS are people with a lot of offshore experience.


Fair enough. How many have actually used one?


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Really, would you want to go to the bow of our boat in a blow and try to raise some zipped up piece of crap. Do you understand the concept of rollershade sailing?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> Really, would you want to go to the bow of our boat in a blow and try to raise some zipped up piece of crap. Do you understand the concept of rollershade sailing?


Whether it's a piece of zippered crap or a fine hank-on staysail, you're in the same place in a blow. I'd rather stay off the bow completely in a blow. That's the best option.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

And, that's why you have an inner fore stay. You don't go to the bow. You bring the sail plan down an in.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay shock. Whatever you say.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Smack, when you learn how to sail more than the internet, call us.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here is an Oyster 46 in reported F10/F11 winds - with very good sailors aboard (they made it home just fine). Look at the rig and the sailplan.






Now, what were you saying again shock?


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Keep sailing the internet Smack, it's warm and safe. Tell us what it's like when you actually go sailing.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Like I said - whatever you say.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

You're from Texas Smack, let me put it in your parlance. Big hat, no cattle.


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## northernsquirrel (Oct 26, 2015)

ok, so you remember as a kid when an authority figure would say to you "don't do that!!!" Well, to some of us that just wasn't the right thing to say....and yes, I did have to see if the burner on the stove was hot (it was).

Forgive me, but I'm just dying here inside so I have to blurt it out...

"but are Hunters real blue water boats?"

sorry, couldn't resist Smack, I tried really really hard....love to everybody....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

northernsquirrel said:


> "but are Hunters real blue water boats?"
> 
> sorry, couldn't resist Smack, I tried really really hard....love to everybody....


Heh-heh. You bastard!

Look, one can believe forum-theory/personal-preference or one can believe fact. When I see a sloop doing very well in *F10/11 conditions* with _exactly_ the sail/rigging configuration I've been talking about (using a reduced headsail on a furler), that's fact. Pure and simple.

Even so, if these other guys can show me _their_ video of their cutters/etc. in F10/11 conditions while they are also safely tucked away in the cockpit - not ever having to go forward to adjust sails...and explain exactly why the above video just isn't possible for a sloop...in mathematical detail...I might listen.

Until then, I'll just quietly tend to my giant herd of cattle while I watch them measure their hats. That's fun too.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Doesn't matter what you say Smack, you don't sail anything but the internet. Big hat...


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Shockwave said:


> Doesn't matter what you say Smack, you don't sail anything but the internet. Big hat...


Alrighty. We get it.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

So you want chapter and verse
95% or more you are not in heavy winds so on a sloop you will be flying a 110-135 of appropriate weight.
Everyone including the experts who make the stuff tell you you lose shape when rolled more than 10-12%.
In heavy winds you won't be full and bye as too uncomfortable but maybe 50-60degrees off like that oyster or even behind the mast. 
Still with a sail not built for those wind speeds it will stretch and make a nice cup. If you don't want a dangerous lee helm you will roll it more. Even with less area it will have worse shape and still stretch. 
To spill the wind you hit a point where either you loosen leechline, move car or ease sheet. In all cases it will flutter and destroy the sail or you do what that oyster did live with the stretch and cupping.
Now you got to paradise but your headsail is blown out. Worse case it fails.
Yes you must be richer than us and everywhere you go there's a sailmaker.
No thanks
Rather fly the sail with appropriate shape, size and weight for conditions. In the long run- safer, easier and cheaper.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not going to say that any of the above options for reducing sail area can't or should never be done. However, posting one vid of it working in one circumstance for a couple minutes, or a demo vid for that matter, does not prove or disprove anything. I could literally post a video of my grandmother smoking at age 97 and suggest you can live a long life and smoke. They're just anecdotes. 

Personally, I would not sail further offshore than I could motor back, with my main and genny as my only sails. That's really the point. Some do it successfully and good for them. 

A furled genny might work, it might be torn to shreds after a while. Then what? I would rather have a storm sail of some kind, so my cruising sails make it to my destination or can be my backup. You can either have an inventory and hank on new ones, have a secondary stay or mast track with a preloaded storm sail of some kind, or use the contraption. Skippers choice. I have a removable inner forestay. 

p.s. adding an inner forestay to a sloop, does not technically make your boat a cutter. Further, going forward to untie a bag and lead the sheets back is night and day to afixing new sails or the contraption.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. You bastard!
> 
> Look, one can believe forum-theory/personal-preference or one can believe fact. When I see a sloop doing very well in *F10/11 conditions* with _exactly_ the sail/rigging configuration I've been talking about (using a reduced headsail on a furler), that's fact. Pure and simple.
> 
> ...


We have sailed in similar conditions to that shown in the video with a much reduced genoa and it does work. A couple of things though, they are on a broad reach which is the best conditions for doing - and the waves are not very big for the wind conditions, which suggests the winds have not been blowing very long. What happens after another 12 to 24 hours or if the point of sail changes (likely as the weather system moves)? I am not a big fan of cutters in general, but in these conditions being able to fly a tidy staysail, either alone or with a much reduced main or trysail, would be a very nice situation.

About trying a GS, I don't have to try it to know that I could not hoist it in the conditions shown in the video - let alone if the waves were considerable higher and the bow was doing its falling elevator imitation. Maybe you could do it - report back on how it went - but June and I could not. Also while you were trying to furl and secure the genoa and put on the GS you would have to be lying ahull, which could prove interesting. I can't see how you manage with just some main up unless you had someone skillful steering. Think again about the GS demo, it is on a catamaran with no seas and very little wind. Think about it in the Oyster's conditions.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

alctel-
Regarding sailing dead downwind, poling out sails, going win-and-wing versus reaching? Try to find other owners, or find the polars for your boat. In North (Sails) University, they used to teach that going ddw was always the slowest way to go, and that reaching off instead, despite the feeling that it was taking forever, was always faster. For many newer boats it is--but for some older designs, some rigs, DDW still is slightly faster, assuming your boat isn't bothered by something like wave action walking the stern around.
You just need to try that, especially, to actually time it and plot it carefully several times, to see what will work best for your boat.
I'd also try to keep an eye on how much weight you add to the boat, with extra fuel/water and equipment. If it begins to settle below the design waterline, you'll only be slowing yourself down and possibly making the motion at sea less kindly. "Stuff" adds up.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Remember, this line of conversation began with this:



killarney_sailor said:


> *There is no way you can make do with only your furling jib.* Also, changing headsails, in the conditions when you need to change headsails is a daunting task. You might consider having a removable inner stay on which you could put a staysail or storm jib as needed. This is not a casual undertaking as you need to make sure it will be strong enough on all corners, including having running backstays.


And I said then I didn't think the bolded maxim was true. And I still don't. The video shows that a furling jib can indeed comfortably handle conditions that are F10/11 (extended conditions you should very rarely, if never, see if you're a conscientious sailor doing typical passages according to Hal Roth). And that's not the only video showing such a feat.

So, if, based on that bolded maxim you laid down above, the OP is supposed to then start adding stays, chainplates, runners, etc. to his sloop - that might not be the best advice. It's a hell of a lot of money for a very, very small slice of heavy weather chances and the tactics used to deal with those conditions. For example, when exactly do you go from the furled jib in the video to raising that staysail? You're already touching F11 and starting to surf. Aren't you much closer to bare poles and a drogue than a sail change at this point?

And out's point about sail shape, etc. - while true in general, we're talking F10/11. The sails are much more providing stability and direction then they are needing to provide a nicely shaped foil. So, you're just decreasing area and blading as much as possible to reduce stress. There's certainly no need to go fast. And as for strength/stretch/etc. - absolutely those are factors that have to go into any call you make. Always are. But do those factors then immediately add up to new rigging and structure? I don't think so.

I only brought up the Gale Sail because, as you say above, dealing with headsails in storm conditions is not something you want to be doing if you can help it. With the furler approach shown, you don't leave the cockpit at all. With your staysail method, you do...both to unlash and hoist - then also to strike and stow it when the conditions are _even worse_. So, either way, you're on the deck in the nasty stuff. I like the Gale Sail, despite its obvious drawbacks with CoE - because it's FAR better to me than adding all the rigging and structure to a sloop that you guys are promoting (the exact opposite of the KISS principle). More cost, more complexity, more points of failure, more exposure when you don't need it. And it addresses the sail shape/stress issues Out raised above.

To your point, though, what this would mean is that you would need to hoist it much sooner in the sequence. In other words, when you've reefed your headsail down to an area that is close to the area of the GS, you probably should go ahead and hoist the GS (if you don't trust your headsail to be able to handle what's coming). I don't really see that as a bad thing. However, as I've already said several times, I'd rather use the furled headsail and avoid leaving the cockpit altogether if I could. That's ideal.

So, I'm not laying down any maxims here. But I'm not buying others in this thread as gospel either.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been paying attention to what my fellow cruisers do. Pockets do have a bottom and given how few people actually ocean cruise you probably won't see your money back with such improvements. Maybe a fraction of it at best.
Still, what I see over and over is after a year or two people on both masthead and fractional sloops end up with running backstays and solents or removable inner stays for heavy weight sails or both. All sizes, ages, pedigree whatever. 
BTW with the Solent you don't leave the cockpit its on a roller. And you're right the storm jib has only been flown to check it out. We did fine in 4d of 30-50 with just the Solent. Didn't even leave the cockpit to reef the main.
You are wrong in believing untying a sail tie then going back to the cockpit is anything like rigging a gale rider in the snot. We use the pole lift as the storm jib halyard. It's lead aft as well.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> BTW with the Solent you don't leave the cockpit its on a roller.


Now THAT is a great solution in my book.



outbound said:


> And you're right the storm jib has only been flown to check it out. We did fine in 4d of 30-50 with just the Solent. Didn't even leave the cockpit to reef the main.


Yeah, that's why, though I prefer something like the Gale Sail over adding a bunch of rigging and structure to a sloop, the window of use is so small, it's just hard for me to justify it. Not for others - but for me.



outbound said:


> You are wrong in believing untying a sail tie then going back to the cockpit is anything like rigging a gale rider in the snot. We use the pole lift as the storm jib halyard. It's lead aft as well.


Yeah, I was more talking about the having to go back forward and strike and stow the staysail (or Gale Sail) in the even nastier snot later.

Rollers are just far safer.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Our own MarkofSeaLife did pretty well without the above. I'm just saying it's perfectly doable.


I have been on Mark's boat and what really surprised me was how stock it looked. It really is in good shape and not what I expected after a "production" boat had been around the world. He did not have a lot of modifications, and the boat did not appear overly worn. I believe he did need a new faucet at the galley sink, and his canvas was a bit worn that was pretty much it. Looked like it was ready to go again. I am sure he has done a lot of work along the way but I have to agree it can be done safely in a modern production boat.

Oh and he is a great host, if you get a chance to have a beer with him do it!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> I have been on Mark's boat and what really surprised me was how stock it looked. It really is in good shape and not what I expected after a "production" boat had been around the world. He did not have a lot of modifications, and the boat did not appear overly worn. I believe he did need a new faucet at the galley sink, and his canvas was a bit worn that was pretty much it. Looked like it was ready to go again. I am sure he has done a lot of work along the way but I have to agree it can be done safely in a modern production boat.
> 
> Oh and he is a great host, if you get a chance to have a beer with him do it!


I hope Mark weighs in on his sail plan. Does he have anything like a 130 genoa that would routinely need to be partially furled? How about cloth weight, etc. How long do his sails last? Extending their life could pay for other options.

I know he says he sails conservatively, so I wonder if the sail plan reflects that.

Still, Mark may be more skilled at maintaining a conservative plan in various conditions than someone who purchased their boat two years ago. The skipper could have a lot to do with it. In my case, I'll keep the 'pull in case of emergency" cord.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Minnie
May be paranoid but thought you were referring to me. I've been owning boats and sailing ~35yrs. Have had sloops, cutters, and now a Solent. Probably too old school given JeffH's discussions of fractional sloops. But Jeff seems clear the fractional sloop he has in mind is quite different then most of the fractional rigs you see on current production boats. Defer to him if he wants to discuss the particulars.
I've been happier offshore than coastal. In some respects find it less stressful. Given that sometimes see weather. From that have come to believe.
Less time you spend on deck safer you are.
Evolutions on deck should be simple, well practiced and to extent possible be doable with one hand.
Business of bringing sailplan to center of boat when reefing is just wrong. Bringing it down and keeping it balanced is right.
Furlers are wonderful. Check for chafe often.
Any prep you can do at anchor or in a slip is time well spent.
I'm on my last boat but if I did another boat it might be in CF. it might be a 7/8 frac. But it still would be a Solent with runners. Redundancy is prudent.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

outbound said:


> Less time you spend on deck safer you are.
> Evolutions on deck should be simple, well practiced and to extent possible be doable with one hand.


Mostly agree. I still believe that halyards at the mast (and therefore main reefing) is ultimately safer than running lines to the cockpit.



outbound said:


> Business of bringing sailplan to center of boat when reefing is just wrong. Bringing it down and keeping it balanced is right.


Why? Yes, reducing sail area is important. Yes, a balanced sail plan is important. Why do you think bringing sail area to the center is wrong? The physics and a lot of credible empirical data (including my experience) differ.



outbound said:


> Any prep you can do at anchor or in a slip is time well spent.
> I'm on my last boat but if I did another boat it might be in CF. it might be a 7/8 frac. But it still would be a Solent with runners. Redundancy is prudent.


I definitely agree with you about prep.

Anyone who feels runners are "too complicated" hasn't had to save a rig when a backstay failed, or seen a mast start to pump in a heavy weather seaway.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Minnie
> May be paranoid but thought you were referring to me......


Not sure which post you are referring to. You and I are in near complete agreement for our personal preferences, I believe.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Mostly agree. I still believe that halyards at the mast (and therefore main reefing) is ultimately safer than running lines to the cockpit........


Interested to hear more about why. I know that many agree with you.

I've heard the argument that there is more friction and are more points of failure running halyards to the cockpit, which are both true. I pulled a block out of the mast base on a Bavaria once. It required one trip to the mast to re-route, at the savings of hundreds of times before.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Why would halyard and reef lines at the mast be safer than the cockpit? We love being able to raise/lower and reef our sails without leaving the helm seat. Definitely safer than climbing out to the mast and trying to hold on while doing sail work. And we have the added advantage that only one person is needed to do it all - real nice when a reef is needed at night and the off watch can stay asleep.

From experience with both, I'll have to disagree.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Interested to hear more about why. I know that many agree with you.
> 
> I've heard the argument that there is more friction and are more points of failure running halyards to the cockpit, which are both true. I pulled a block out of the mast base on a Bavaria once. It required one trip to the mast to re-route, at the savings of hundreds of times before.


If a block pulls out, then it wasn't designed or installed to purpose correctly. There is no other excuse, and it is no different than any other part of the boat in this regards.

On our boat, the only difference from mast to cockpit is that the halyard runs an additional 3-4' from where a winch would be to a block, and then another 5-6' back to the cockpit winch. The added friction is minimal, and there are minimal extra points of failure - particularly since our turning block and clutch are strongly mounted and backed in areas where the core was removed and replaced with solid glass.

Mark


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i had to stop reading every single posting due to wifi fail, the form of which we suffer bei9ng chronic, i must use fast n disappear...
however, has anyone addressed the beam seas crashing onto the deck and hull to deck connections and such??
what damages will a breaking sea effect on your boat. 
might wanna research jeff hartjoy and his current slog around the planet.
donna lange is doing same trip in a sloop. look into her situation and adventures. 
sorry i havent the linkies. sadly, my alleged wifi will not allow that.....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> If a block pulls out, then it wasn't designed or installed to purpose correctly......


I may have given the wrong impression, it didn't pull itself entirely out of the base/deck.

The base bracket was still there, but heavily bent over and the clevis pin, that held the block in the base, was hanging off one side of the bracket. The retaining ring, for the clevis, had obviously broken off and the pin worked its way out.

Admittedly, I had not inspected it just before this sail, so I can not say when the retaining ring separated. Call it pilot error, if you will, but I had to acknowledge this was an additional point of failure. Still, it was pretty rare, compared to a trip to the mast each and every time. On that we agree.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Interested to hear more about why. I know that many agree with you.
> 
> I've heard the argument that there is more friction and are more points of failure running halyards to the cockpit, which are both true. I pulled a block out of the mast base on a Bavaria once. It required one trip to the mast to re-route, at the savings of hundreds of times before.


More lines and hardware, more clutter, more trip hazards. More points of ingress for water. My main goes up and down much easier if I'm there at the mast to help guide.

Is it really that hard or dangerous to go to the mast? Plenty of handholds, way different than going all the way forward. Reef early, if conditions look like they will be bad. Easy to clip in if conditions are bad or it's at night.

It's a personal decision, but I don't like lines led aft, at least on my boat and the boats I've been on. Keep it simple.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

That doesn't change my opinion - any form of failure suggests the part is not fit for purpose. If it was a failure due to old age or poor maintenance, then that has nothing at all to do with the fact that it was being used to lead a halyard aft - it would fail in any application.

A human standing on a coach roof at 3am in large seas and heavy spray attempting to put a reef in the sail is far more likely to suffer a dangerous failure than a couple of turning blocks and clutches used to lead those lines to the cockpit.

Mark


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

colemj said:


> A human standing on a coach roof at 3am in large seas and heavy spray attempting to put a reef in the sail is far more likely to suffer a dangerous failure than a couple of turning blocks and clutches used to lead those lines to the cockpit.
> 
> Mark


If your lines are at the mast, and you are worried about going to the mast at night, just reef at night as a matter for course. Many do. And how often do large seas and heavy spray come out of nowhere? And you can always clip in.

Another consideration is physical ability. If you have physical difficulty with getting to the mast, then by all means go aft.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I agree it is boat specific. On ours, all lines leave the winch/clutches and fall directly into a line bin. Nothing cluttering or tripping. The extra hardware is a turning block, where mast-based requires an extra winch. Water ingress is a user error and should not occur - it shouldn't even be a worry. A good track system and the sail falls instantly - this is true regardless of where one stands while raising/lowering. The number of lines do not change - in fact, single line reefing from the cockpit removes two lines over mast-base reefing, as well as removing the crinkle hooks.

Yes, it is more difficult and dangerous to go to the mast rather than stay in the cockpit. I can't help but believe this is a universal truth. Whether it is absolutely difficult or dangerous would depend on the individual boat.

Mark


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Interested to hear more about why. I know that many agree with you.


Thank you for keeping an open mind. I try to do so as well. Sometimes experience makes that hard. *grin*



Minnewaska said:


> I've heard the argument that there is more friction and are more points of failure running halyards to the cockpit, which are both true. I pulled a block out of the mast base on a Bavaria once. It required one trip to the mast to re-route, at the savings of hundreds of times before.


As is so often the case there are a LOT of issues. Friction is absolutely a significant one. For a well engineered system I don't think extra failures is statistically significant. Extra maintenance is, especially for underdeck routing on boats like those from Jeanneau or Garcia. Although those extra blocks and line organizers must be cleaned and lubricated regularly or friction escalates.

I also see penetrations through the dodger that allow much more water through into the cockpit. The aforementioned underdeck routings make this easier to manage but no all builders do a good job. Underdeck is not an option for a retrofit.

All the extra line in the cockpit is a hazard. A tripping hazard, a fouling hazard, and a conflict with other functions that are important in the cockpit.

Back to friction you WILL end up with extra winches ($) which again conflict with other cockpit functions moving things as simple as watch bags into the cockpit where they again become more things to trip on and spill and slip on.

Now lets talk about time. Compare the time it takes to hoist a main from the mast or the cockpit, even for someone as old and creaky as me. Compare reefing time. How many things can go wrong during a reefing evolution? The longer it takes the more likely something else will happen.

Let's talk about energy. I sail a lot of boats. In my experience on well-maintained boats it is more work to sail a boat with lines lead aft than at the mast. Yes, you don't have to leave the cockpit, but the work grinding winches is substantial. You do realize that time sitting in the cockpit resting is less effective, right?



colemj said:


> Why would halyard and reef lines at the mast be safer than the cockpit? We love being able to raise/lower and reef our sails without leaving the helm seat. Definitely safer than climbing out to the mast and trying to hold on while doing sail work. And we have the added advantage that only one person is needed to do it all - real nice when a reef is needed at night and the off watch can stay asleep.


I have great respect for you Mark. I think you are off the mark (<- no pun intended) here. My experience often on same make and model of boat is that an old dude like me can reef at the mast in about half the time of reefing from lines led aft in the cockpit. In addition, with lines led aft I see a higher failure rate that forces me to the mast anyway and then I have more clean up time afterward.

In my opinion you should not go through a major evolution like reefing without two people on deck. There are just too many things that can go wrong. The position that it makes it easier to reef singlehanded is a red herring.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

caberg said:


> If your lines are at the mast, and you are worried about going to the mast at night, just reef at night as a matter for course. Many do. And how often do large seas and heavy spray come out of nowhere? And you can always clip in.
> 
> Another consideration is physical ability. If you have physical difficulty with getting to the mast, then by all means go aft.


We generally do reef at night, but why take it down to the third reef in light winds just to avoid going forward?

It is very common for large seas and heavy spray to raise up within an hour or so in the western and southern Caribbean. These also happen as you enter strong current against winds, which are not precisely predictable. Then there are those frequent 30kt squalls with blinding rain - we often reef/unreef several times a night on passage in this weather.

I have had many years of experience with both setups and see no disadvantages of leading lines to the cockpit, and several for the other option. Of course, with a cockpit setup, you can always climb out to the mast if you like...

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

With 8yrs of full time cruising, we have never needed two people to put in a reef. I'm not sure what the other person would even do, since all controls are at the helm. Likewise, the only failure we have had is one reefing line chafing after 15yrs. That one is my fault because it was past its due date and should have been replaced years earlier. It would have chafed regardless of cockpit/mast implementation.

I do agree that a bad helm setup is worse than a good mast one, but the opposite is true also.

I don't see the need for an extra winch - our entire boat is run off a single winch and we have never seen a need for another. As for friction, when the clutch is released, our main falls instantly down into its bag - so fast that you could get a rope burn if you grabbed the halyard. The jib is almost the same (we have a hanked jib). So any extra friction is meaningless in practice.

I promise you that on our setup I'm faster in the cockpit than you would be at the mast - even if you doubled up on your wheaties and I had a hangover. The nice thing about being in the cockpit is that it allows electric winches. 

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Thank you for keeping an open mind. I try to do so as well. Sometimes experience makes that hard. *grin*


I do appreciate your point of view.



> Extra maintenance is, especially for underdeck routing on boats like those from Jeanneau or Garcia. Although those extra blocks and line organizers must be cleaned and lubricated regularly or friction escalates.


I'm about to have a forehead smacking V8 moment. I've never cleaned (other than normal deck washing and fresh water rinsing) or lubricated the blocking/organizer system. I don't deal with the clutches either, unless I brake one.  What do you suggest?

Our lines do run over the top of the coachroof, but they are only covered by a cap that becomes the flat non-skid. They aren't truly going under deck. I do have to clean dirt and debris out of them, which requires little more than hosing. I've never had seawater, of any significance, make its way back to the cockpit through them.



> I also see penetrations through the dodger that allow much more water through into the cockpit.


I have seen this too. Same with dodger/bimini penetrations for other control lines, not just halyards.



> All the extra line in the cockpit is a hazard. A tripping hazard, a fouling hazard, and a conflict with other functions that are important in the cockpit.


Depends how big your cockpit is.  All our mast lines are coiled by the winches under the dodger.



> Back to friction you WILL end up with extra winches ($)


Maybe bigger, but I don't know about extra, we have four in total. I do like electric/hydraulic winches though, I will give you that.  They are both a luxury and, in some ways, I believe a necessity. I've done my fair share of hauling a main (both traditional and furling) by hand from the cockpit. If you're not in fear of falling off the deck, I would agree that the body position from which you grind a mast winch can be better ergonomically than crouching under a dodger. It depends, I suppose.

I am a major proponent of powered winches for larger sails. Regardless of where the lines are lead, I think the energy required is why many aren't sailing aren't sailing at all. I'm desperately trying to get a buddy to upgrade. He knows it will change his usage overnight. He motors a ton, just because he often doesn't have the muscle aboard to deal at times, especially if the conditions are marginal and one only want to check it out. He just motors in those. BTW, his main halyard is at the mast. Yes, the powered winches can fail, but again, I would rather hand crank for a failure than every single time...........


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have 8 lines piercing hard dodger. Deck under dodger has fair amount of camber. Lines are coiled and dropped under dodger between clutches and forward glass. Even with green water washing the top of the house water ingress is trivial. What does come in goes to inside gutter below lateral sides of hard dodger and out. Whenever there's green water your in your foulies anyway. See this objection as a total non issue. 
Want to see my lines. Hidden lines are hidden. Hard to check underway and another chore at a time I want to keep things simple. Another issue if need to rereave underway. Don't walk on the top of the house much. Areas where I do walk have no lines. Another non issue IMHO. 
Single line is a pita. Third reef is double. First two single. If I had to do all over again all would be double. Have found marking lines with both color ( indelible ink) and tactile ( thread or tape) has been a big improvement. Have found dropping a little halyard then pulling in a little reef has helped. Have found a tight topping lift helps. But still agree it is slower than double brought aft or doing at the mast. But would note now a days with relatively thin non stretch and good blocks on the sail and deck friction is a non issue. What is an issue is kinks in the line. We may reef and unreef multiple times. Need to be diligent and repetitively get all twist out of the lines if you want single line reefing to work.
Do not bring someone up to reef. Do bring a second up if there's any need to go forward.
All winches but those on mast are powered. Don't use power to reef. Do use power on halyard.
Set up allows reefing from mast base or cockpit. Never reef from mast base.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

TWO people on deck to reef because "things could go wrong"? I'd definitely say you're doing it wrong Ausp.

Mark's right. You should listen to him. He knows what he's doing.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

No smack
One on deck one in cockpit watching and as back up.

No one goes forward without second watching. Simple safety measure.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

outbound said:


> no smack
> one on deck one in cockpit watching and as back up.
> 
> No one goes forward without second watching. Simple safety measure.


+1


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> No smack
> One on deck one in cockpit watching and as back up.
> 
> No one goes forward without second watching. Simple safety measure.


That's the way I do it. But maybe you should tell that to Ausp...



SVAuspicious said:


> In my opinion you should not go through a major evolution like reefing without *two people on deck*. There are just too many things that can go wrong.


Like I said, I think he's doing it wrong.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

I don't know that there is a right or wrong way to tuck in a reef, just preference.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We'll see what SVA meant, but the term "on deck" in the context of passage crew position would mean anyone not down below to me. One at the mast, one at the helm would both be referred to as on deck, in general, rather than saying one is on the coachroof and the other in the cockpit.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> We'll see what SVA meant, but the term "on deck" in the context of passage crew position would mean anyone not down below to me. One at the mast, one at the helm would both be referred to as on deck, in general, rather than saying one is on the coachroof and the other in the cockpit.


Yes, terminology is important in sailing. I'm sure it was just a typo. And, like you and Ausp, I'm very forgiving of those. Heh-heh.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

colemj said:


> With 8yrs of full time cruising, we have never needed two people to put in a reef.


"Needing" vice "well-advised" are in my opinion somewhat different. I've certainly reefed alone. That is an obvious conclusion of single-handing.

On the other hand, as much of a priority as I give (extremely important) to the offwatch getting rest there are failure modes that merit bringing a second person up. What if the autopilot drops course in the middle of the evolution? What if you get an override? What if a breaker pops on an electric winch? What if a hockle blocks a line through a line organizer, or worse through an underdeck line organizer? What if you drop a winch handle? Anyone who thinks "what-ifs" are not relevant hasn't spent enough time offshore and seen enough things go wrong.

I have great respect for you Mark and I expect you have confidence that your crew will boil up the companionway when needed. I'd rather have that person under the dodger.



Minnewaska said:


> We'll see what SVA meant, but the term "on deck" in the context of passage crew position would mean anyone not down below to me. One at the mast, one at the helm would both be referred to as on deck, in general, rather than saying one is on the coachroof and the other in the cockpit.


Thank you Minnewaska. You did indeed interpret me correctly. "On deck" to me means not below. Ask the Navy: "all hands on deck" does NOT mean everyone on the foredeck. It means awake, alert, on station. +1 to Minnewaska.

Which leads to a warning to anyone who sails with me. If crew wake me I show up, often in my underwear. First question is what is going on? Second question is do I have time to great dressed. *grin* If you wait for something to already be wrong there is no chance to get dressed and prepared. I want to be awakened with time to get organized. I give my crew the same respect. Do not wait for an emergency to call me. I WANT crew to wake me because they aren't sure about lights on the horizon. I really don't want them to wait for a wall of steel 100 yards off. I feel the same about reefing, major wind shifts, funny noises, and anything else they are unsure about. Similarly I will ask crew to come on deck as a safety net for me and the boat for any major evolution.

We are all the captains of our own boats (in my case often the boats of others) and make our own choices and take our own risks.



colemj said:


> I don't see the need for an extra winch - our entire boat is run off a single winch and we have never seen a need for another. As for friction, when the clutch is released, our main falls instantly down into its bag - so fast that you could get a rope burn if you grabbed the halyard. The jib is almost the same (we have a hanked jib). So any extra friction is meaningless in practice.


I am not surprised, simply on the basis of what I have read from you. You are the exception rather than the rule.

I don't eat Wheaties. I would be happy to sail with you any time, and to have you sail with me. I believe we would both benefit and likely learn something. I suggest this discussion is less about right and wrong than it is about what works and what works better.



Minnewaska said:


> I'm about to have a forehead smacking V8 moment. I've never cleaned (other than normal deck washing and fresh water rinsing) or lubricated the blocking/organizer system. I don't deal with the clutches either, unless I brake one.  What do you suggest?


Well it depends on how bad they are. Highest pressure fresh water rinse you can. Inspect what you can see (some disassembly may be required) for corrosion of bearings and bushings. You may need to replace some parts. Some combination of PB Blaster and compressed air (if you can manage it) helps. Then WD-40 then a light spray lube. Clean out all the leaves and weed and dirt under the caps. Line stoppers take some work (read the manuals) to disassemble and clean and lube. Be careful about getting lube on the clamps that hold the line. Threading the line back through the line stopper is easier if the ends are whipped and not just melted and you sew some dental floss through the end to pull the lines back through the stoppers.



outbound said:


> Have 8 lines piercing hard dodger. Deck under dodger has fair amount of camber. Lines are coiled and dropped under dodger between clutches and forward glass. Even with green water washing the top of the house water ingress is trivial. What does come in goes to inside gutter below lateral sides of hard dodger and out. Whenever there's green water your in your foulies anyway. See this objection as a total non issue.


All of which is fine. With no penetrations you can have flat spaces for charts, electronics, personal gear, cup holders, and more all under cover. Under the dodger can be dry space.



outbound said:


> Want to see my lines.


I agree. I had a lot of grief on a Garcia delivery with horrible hidden lines. I can't imagine why anyone thought they were a good idea.



outbound said:


> Single line is a pita. Third reef is double. First two single. If I had to do all over again all would be double.


I agree with you about single line reefing. Just too much friction and too many things that can go wrong. Getting reefed outhaul tension right is hard without a mess at the gooseneck. Obviously I've dealt with a lot of configurations. On my boat I drop the main until I can get the tack ring on the hook, winch in the leech line, and hoist the main back up. This is obviously easier with in-main or in-boom furling (neither of which I like).

I agree with you on marking lines. I have sewn in marks for all three reefs on the main.



outbound said:


> All winches but those on mast are powered. Don't use power to reef. Do use power on halyard.
> Set up allows reefing from mast base or cockpit. Never reef from mast base.


Just FYI, Anderson now has an electric winch with all the mechanics up inside the drum. That means mast mounted electric winches are straightforward.



outbound said:


> One on deck one in cockpit watching and as back up.
> 
> No one goes forward without second watching. Simple safety measure.


Exactly.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> I want to be awakened with time to get organized. I give my crew the same respect. Do not wait for an emergency to call me. I WANT crew to wake me because they aren't sure about lights on the horizon. I really don't want them to wait for a wall of steel 100 yards off. I feel the same about reefing, major wind shifts, funny noises, and anything else they are unsure about. Similarly I will ask crew to come on deck as a safety net for me and the boat for any major evolution.


That's what I said earlier - and what I do. I mean, when you have crew on board - who _doesn't_ do that?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Dave it's unfortunate you didn't actuate the opportunity for my first SDR passage as you would see the Devils in the details so your concerns are not significantly germane in practice.
The first toward inch may see some moisture under the hard dodger. The rest bone dry. We leave tissues bounded by a rubber band under there as well as a microfiber or two to wipe and dry things such as glasses or screens. They stay totally dry and in place out of wet and wind. With red/white lopolights hard wired into the underneath of the dodger evolutions are easy without use of a flashlight ruining your night vision. With single line friction has not been the issue. We pull in the reefs by hand not even using a winch except occasionally one wrap and a yank with both hands for the last wee bit. Of course use a winch to reset the main. The issue has been kinks not allowing free passage through the deck organiizers. This is the pita and is circumvented by astudiously getting all twist out of the line. When the sail is first going up we attend to this. And again both when reefing further or raising more sail. It's an extra chore but compared to at mast reefing ( sail has the set up and boom the hooks so I can do it) still the overwhelming preference for me and anyone who has sailed with me is reef from the cockpit. 
Different folks-different boats. So be it.


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