# Rough rounding.



## Tweegs (Jun 25, 2010)

Let me set up the clip:

First, in full disclosure, I'm the idiot on the mainsheet&#8230;Don't know what I was thinking.

We're on a broad reach, port tack, getting ready to jibe around the first pin. The rounding will put us on a beam reach, starboard tack. The boat is an Irwin 39, we are in 18~20 knots of wind, main full up and a #1 out front. We are a little overpowered, but having a blast. Watch the horizon for an indication of heel.

Go ahead and watch the clip, and when you get done laughing, see if you can answer a couple of questions for me.

Rough rounding - YouTube

OK, have a good laugh?
Realize that only my pride was hurt, and my ego took a bit of a bruising for having it caught on camera.

Question #1. With that much wind I was really worried about having the boom slam to port and causing all kinds of nasty, expensive damage. Obviously, 190 pounds of me was no match for the wind load on the main. When the boom started to go over, I had way more loose sheet in my hands than I intended.

Anyone got a remedy for this?

Question #2. The boat we almost ran over&#8230;It was much, much closer than it appeared in the clip. We thought we had given him enough room to round the mark, but he did come out farther than we had anticipated. We had him overlapped by a length on the approach to the mark, played it safe and waited about 2 boat lengths beyond the mark to start our jibe, plus we were several lengths windward of the pin. It appears to me that we powered up quick and he stalled a bit coming around, were on him in an instant. I eased the main and my helmsman fell off to avoid the collision, helm on the other boat came up. Kudos to both drivers, it could have gone much worse.

Still, had a collision occurred, it is the consensus of our crew that we would have been at fault.

Do y'all draw the same conclusion?

In all of the excitement, did you happen to notice we overtook both boats to leeward? 

Too bad we gave it all back up on the beat, we couldn't point well, no inboard genoa track. I took care of that this past weekend.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

OK, absent any opinions so far, I'll start it off. I don't see anything particularly embarrassing about what happened. It's a big boat in strong winds, and you were dealing with big loads. You lost your balance, but didn't get hurt, nothing broke. It happens.

It appears to me that the "mistake" was that the traveler wasn't centered before beginning the turn, as it should have been. If the traveler isn't centered, then you can't take as much slack out of the mainsheet. Also, you let the helmsman get ahead of you. In hauling in the mainsheet, you weren't keeping up with his rate of turn, so, when the mainsail gybed, the boom hadn't been brought as close to the centerline of the boat as it should have been. I think that was mostly because of the traveler not being centered in advance.

One other thought. When you fell, your feet weren't under you. You were leaning back, with your feet forward, and, when the mainsheet suddenly went slack, there was nothing under you to stop you from going down. Keep your feet under you. Generally, if you have to use your body weight to that extent, either you're doing something wrong, or you need help from some mechanical advantage.

My brain is still tired from staying up late and adjusting lines during hurricane Irene, so I don't have much of an opinion regarding the rules question, except to say that, based on your description and the video, your boat appears to be burdened, and I can't think of any valid excuse you could have offered if you had hit the other boat.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Tweegs said:


> Still, had a collision occurred, it is the consensus of our crew that we would have been at fault.
> 
> Do y'all draw the same conclusion?


yes


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

I am going to have to agree and disagree here.

WRT to the boom on the gybe it appears that the traveller went completely from one side to the other as mentioned above. Perhaps someone lowering the traveller in a more controlled manner or centering as suggested would have helped. It did not appear the sheet was the problem so much as the amount of play in the traveller.

Now I have to disagree. The J boat in the video was the windward boat on the same tack as you and had travelled well past the mark before making its turn. Sailboats turn on the keel not the stern so there was no need to go that far. It is my opinion (and you know how good opinions are) that he sailed past the mark and was in a windward / leeward situation where he no longer had ROW - of course you were overtaking which likely changed that. Regardless I believe the J boat skipper was reckless and caused the situation. Your boat did give way but I would suggest the skipper of the J boat owes the skipper of your boat a drink for giving way .... 

Mike


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Didn't the J boat gybe right in front of you? He must have been on a port tack when you had already established a starboard tack. He was the windward boat and obviously had room to round the mark but chose to continue his course beyond the mark which would have required him to manuever to avoid you. 
As to the hard gibe, you simply waited too long to gybe over. Look at the jib it is already pulling when you started the gybe and then you let go completely the windward traveller control line allowing the mainsheet car to crash over. Not horrible, just a little late.
Looks like fun. What kind of boat was that?
John


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Looking again, I think Mike is right. The J-boat had a poor rounding, but your driver missed the chance to tuck it up inside the J and get above and roll him to windward. I'm guessing both your driver and the jboat driver where distracted by commotion on your respective boats. Such is life. You hate to protest, but if this is repeat behavior by a 'usual suspect' after having been discussed over a beer and nothing has changed, then next time you've got to throw the flag. ANd even if you're right, you still have to do what you can to avoid a collision. If not and there's avoidable contact, you can be tossed as well.

All this is tougher than it looks on film though. I wouldn't say anything on the video is reckless so much as just not well executed. Live and learn. Next time will be smoother.

On the mainsheet, pull over your shoulders, not below. You'll get a greater range of motion i.e., faster and more sheet with each pull... but no really big deal. There wasn't all that much sheet out to begin with.


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

Whats to laugh at? If this was a race, looks like you guys were passing everyone up


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## Tweegs (Jun 25, 2010)

Appreciate the insight folks.

First off, I know the skipper of that boat, hell of a nice guy, and we probably wouldn't have protested even if we were sure we were in the right. I don't think there has been a single protest flag in either the spring or summer series. Some boats run a little closer to the edge than most, but even they play mostly by the rules. I'll chalk this one up to an honest mistake and get my beer after the race tomorrow.

So many rules out there when it comes to rounding a mark, and this being our first year of racing, we're still trying to learn them all. It's nice to have video evidence rather than try to explain in text, you can clearly see the events unfold.



ccriders said:


> Looks like fun. What kind of boat was that?
> John


Ours is a 1980 Irwin 39, and at 25,000 lbs, we employ the tonnage rule.



puddinlegs said:


> On the mainsheet, pull over your shoulders, not below. You'll get a greater range of motion i.e., faster and more sheet with each pull... but no really big deal. There wasn't all that much sheet out to begin with.


Will do, we'll get that traveler centered prior, and I'll keep my feet under me, too.



sailguy40 said:


> Whats to laugh at? If this was a race, looks like you guys were passing everyone up


I look for the humor in things, I've always been sort of the class clown. :laugher

We smoke on a reach or run, it's the beat leg that kills us.

My wife keeps meticulous records of the race. She gets wind speeds from buoy data on the lake.

Winds were 12 gusting to 24 knots.
Leg 1 was a broad reach, almost a run, we averaged 7.2 knots.
Leg 2 was a beam reach, we averaged 7.3 knots.
Leg 3 was a beat, we averaged 5.6 knots and went 2 miles on a 1.2 mile leg.
Leg 4 was a beam reach again, we averaged 7.7 knots.
Top speed was 7.9 knots

Obviously, the beat did us in. We were the #2 boat around the second pin and closing fast on the #1 boat (who flew a spinnaker off the line). We finished 7th out of 8 in our class, but all 8 boats finished within a 5 minute window, 3 minutes corrected.

Our 2 biggest problems were that we didn't have a genoa lead track inboard last week, so we had to sheet to the toe rail and therefore could only point about 45 degrees to wind, (That has been corrected, the tracks are now in place and ready for tomorrow) and we really needed to reef the main, we had it flat as we could and still had too much weather helm. Live and learn.

Wanna talk about heel?
Here ya go!


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## anthemj24 (Aug 24, 2011)

Agree with Mike, the other boat fouled you guys. I also think I see the problem with your windward legs. At that angle of heel, you are going mostly sideways and will get clobbered. You need to find a way to depower better and keep the boat on it's feet. What do you guys do currently to switch gears when you start back uphill? backstay on? more outhaul? Jib cars back? there are a lot of ways to take some power out of the sails.


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

From a international Rule Judge - and by the way he said the video "was one of the few that actually showed something useful"

_"Mark room is room for boat to sail to a mark and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. The inside boat sailed past the mark before turning, taking more than the mark-room to which she was entitled. Having sailed past the mark, she was now a windward boat and had to keep clear under RRS 11; however, L (the Irwin) might have also been penalized under Rule 14 in the event of contact involving damage."_
Personally I am very relieved that my first instinct was correct. If not then I would be very dangerous on a race course

Mike


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Tweegs, not to be nit picky, but you may want to ease that traveler a touch.  Sideways is slow. Does the boat have a #2 headsail?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

It looks to me like the traveller man blew it for you. He tries to swing the traveller right before the jibe but can't. He then reaches over to the starboard cam cleat (that he forgot to clear beforehand) as you're cranking on the sheet to try to center. Just then, at the moment of jibe, he releases that cleat and you get a buttload of slack as the boom swings across. It was a stellar sit down though tweegster!

Very cool though how you blew past those two boats after the mark. Nice!!! BTW - what the hell was up with the main trimmer in that second boat you passed? That was some seriously lousy sail trim on that boat!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Agree with the others that feel this was not in any way an embarrassing maneouver. The J30 was fortunate you weren't more aggressive.

Any problems with the gibe itself, I think, would be more a function of that style of mainsheet (winch assisted, essentially underpowered tackle). As to the traveller, esp if it's a high drag traveller like that one appears to be, letting it slide across may well soften the gibe a bit. However with a good ball bearing traveller letting it slam across is not a good plan....


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

When your crew gets more comfortable working together in these conditions, boats such as that J may become something you see as an opportunity.


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## Tweegs (Jun 25, 2010)

Well last night was a bust. Light air, long course, and 3 legs well suited to spinnakers&#8230;and we don't have one. Rounding the 4th mark, we set her wing on wing and with a 4 knot tail wind, coasted to a last in class finish. Of course, it didn't help that we blew the start by crossing and taking off at the 1 minute warning.

"Hey, we're way out in front of the pack! Whoo hoo!"
"Wait, why aren't the others crossing?"
"Oh crap!"

Lesson learned: hold the line 'til the flag drops.
But the upshot was we pointed well.

I talked to the other skipper afterwards, and though it was cordial and full of laughter reliving the experience, he was pretty adamant he did nothing wrong. He watched the video, read the comment from the judge (thanks for that, BTW) and still wasn't convinced of any wrong doing.

Ah well, it's over, nobody got hurt, no damage was done (well, other than to several pairs of shorts, on both boats), and everyone is still on friendly speaking terms.



Faster said:


> As to the traveller, esp if it's a high drag traveller like that one appears to be, letting it slide across may well soften the gibe a bit. However with a good ball bearing traveller letting it slam across is not a good plan....


Point well noted. It's a brand new this year Harken 4:1 traveler, that came with a big boat price tag (Gawd, I'm beginning to loath the term "Big boat"). The traveler guy was made aware of the need to center prior to a jibe, and every jibe last night went smooth as silk.



zz4gta said:


> Tweegs, not to be nit picky, but you may want to ease that traveler a touch.  Sideways is slow. Does the boat have a #2 headsail?


The pic? Yea, we were only over that hard a second or two. The clowns up on the high side were too busy yapping and didn't call the puff. It's hard to tell there, but I was easing the main, followed shortly by a barrage of obscenities to the foredeck. (He's my oldest and quite used to obscenity barrages).

The wife and I are cutting a check for a #2 this fall, this boat started out as strictly a cruiser and little by little we are adding enough jewelry to make her dual purpose.



anthemj24 said:


> What do you guys do currently to switch gears when you start back uphill? backstay on? more outhaul? Jib cars back? there are a lot of ways to take some power out of the sails.


Lots of Cunningham, if the boom is outside the traveler, the vang comes on hard enough to keep the boom down, inside the traveler we go just a touch of vang to help put a little belly in the mast in heavy air. Outhaul is out full. Traveller is adjusted to reduce weather helm. The backstay is a problem, just a turnbuckle back there. Our zero reference is with the mast raked about 4 or 5 inches back. We'll make an adjustment while still in the slip based on conditions and experience (still building that data base), and how many turns one way or the other are noted in the log book. Backstay adjustment is on the jewelry list, but did I mention big boat price tags??



smackdaddy said:


> It was a stellar sit down though tweegster!
> Very cool though how you blew past those two boats after the mark. Nice!!! BTW - what the hell was up with the main trimmer in that second boat you passed? That was some seriously lousy sail trim on that boat!


Aye Smack, somehow I knew that sit down would meet with your approval. And Thanks! :laugher

I think that second boat was having issues, they are no slouch and usually place, as they did that night, 3rd I think. They got it together shortly after and took us on the beat, but we held them off on that leg.


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

Cool video. A couple of things. The heel angle is ok for a reach. Most boats of your vintage can sail at heel angles up to 25 degrees on a reach and it is fast. To wit you were passing the other boats like they were stopped on the reach.

Your jibes in these conditions could be a lot smoother. As others have said, center and lock the traveler. Blow the vang right before you start the jibe. A tight vang on a crash jibe can put a huge shock load on the vang either breaking it or ripping it out of the mast. As the helmsman slowly starts the jibe haul the mainsheet in like crazy and release it as the boom nears center line. You will have to retrim after the boom is over but this also reduces the shock loading.

You problems upwind are a different story. The roller furling headsail is most likely the culprit. Inboard tracks are a definite must but you are way overpowered in those conditions with an rf sail and full main. The RF sail by design will have a flatter entry and a higher clew with most likely a stretched out shape. The higher clew and bagged out shape will cause the boat to heel a lot and the flat entry will cause the bow to fall off to leeward especially in any waves. 

One way to help that is to have a powerful vang and blade out the main. You drop to traveller to leeward in the puffs. In this mode you are only using the aft third of sail while the rest of sail is soft or bubbling. Unfortunately the short width traveller on your boat will likely limit the effectiveness of this technique for you. Reefing the headsail might work but the shape will be awful as you try to point.

When the wind is up there is no substitute for the right upwind sail. RF is a bad idea for this condition. Although RF can be effective in moderate conditions the performance of the compromise RF headsail in the light stuff and heavy air sucks. Not much of a way around that without going to a multi sail inventory.

Good luck in the future. It looks like you guys are having fun which is what counts.


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## MITBeta (May 13, 2011)

Rules for rounding a windward mark and leeward mark are slightly different. On a windward mark you can sail past the mark as far as you want, but a leeward rounding boat with rights to the mark has to sail it's proper course, which means it can't sail further below the mark than necessary. Once it violated rule 18, it was the windward, clear ahead boat. You guys should have blasted by them on the starboard side...


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## tap (Apr 1, 2009)

The definition of mark room is the same both at windward and leeward marks. You only get room to sail to the mark, and then while at the mark to sail your proper course. You're no longer at the mark when you've rounded the mark and it's passed astern and no longer has a bearing on your course.

The difference is that at a windward mark the boat with mark-room would probably be the inside overlapped boat. And the inside boat will also be the leeward boat. Nothing shuts off R11 and the leeward boat has rights and doesn't need to let you round the mark (unless somehow they owe you mark room, despite them being inside). Or course R17 isn't shut off either....

At a leeward mark there is rule 18.4, but that only applies until you gybe.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I agree with Smack. The traveler guy had the thing open and had no control over it.

I don't know little about racing with a full crew and I use to do that alone or when I am lucky with the help of one of my kids.

It seems to me that the traveler should have been innicially centered when the boat starts to round, the boom line should have be pulled hard while the boom was going to the center and then gradually let go to the new position on the other side.

We don't have a crew for the traveler so we only adjust it after the boom is safely on the other side but I guess that with a full crew both things can and are done at the same time.

I agree with faster that with that wind the maneuver even has it was done does not seem dangerous, however with stronger wind it could be problematic to make it this way, even if it was really fast 

By the way, nice movie!

Regards

Paulo


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

I would leave the main trim to you, one person making the calls on halyard tension, outhaul, cunni, etc. Playing a sheet and traveler should be done by one person. Also took a long time to get weight up. In breeze, you want weight up asap.


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## deeman (Jul 9, 2011)

Just came to say - great video!! As a guy who just started to crew for a Fall series it was a fantastic video to show how all the members of the crew handle their respective tasks. I must have watched it 20 times. 

I see your YouTube channel has good stuff too - but do you have more race videos? I liked the still shots edited in a series, but the camera view and system you have setup is awesome for capturing great video!! Can ya post some more?


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## Tweegs (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks, I appreciate that!
My wife does all of the editing, she has a passion for it.

Don't use us as an example of fine seamanship during a race though, we're still trying to get the hang of it and use the video as a training aid, there's a lot of what-not-to-do's in those videos.

This is the camera we use, mounted to the backstay:
GoPro Products - Record & Share Your Most Memorable Moments
Small and has a waterproof case, great little camera.

These aren't race videos, just some the wife put together:
Just Sailing - YouTube
End of the Season - YouTube

We have more footage of our races, but the wife hasn't done anything with them yet.

Here is a video from one of our club boats, Snake Oil, a J105.
This boat and crew are among the top performers in our race series.
Since the video is up on youtube and made public, I'm sure they won't mind me sharing it here:

J105 Snake Oil Sailing on Lake St Clair Michigan in heavy air - YouTube

The spinnaker broach is awesome!


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

lots going on here. As far as the rounding... you say that the J/30 had an overlap at the outset. You were obviously on the outside. If the overlap existed when you were 3 boatlengths from the mark, then you needed to give him room to roiund the mark in a seamanlike manner, based on the conditions present at the time. It looks like you did, so there's no harm, no foul. Since the course to the next mark is a reach, cutting inside the J/30 might not have been a good idea, even if you'd been able to. In any case, you then proceed to pass everything in sight. Nothing wrong with that!


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## Tweegs (Jun 25, 2010)

Over a couple of beers, we found out exactly what happened on that rounding.

The first boat to round had a new guy on the foredeck. Because we were in heavy air, their intent was to reef the main at the rounding, but the halyard fouled and they stalled, which set up a chain reaction.

The skipper of the J boat started to round but had nowhere to go. He knew if rounded and tried to go windward of the first boat, he’d broach. He held course a few extra seconds to round and pass leeward of the stalled boat. Since his attention was focused on avoiding the stalled boat, he didn’t realize we had made the turn, were powered up, and hard charging for that same spot of water.


My bowman, who is also new, didn’t properly asses the unfolding calamity ahead and call it back to the cockpit, where the rest of us were focused on sail trim (and should have also been watching ahead). 

The skipper of the J boat, after seeing us, decided he could survive a broach much better than a broadside hit from a 10 ton boat, and threw the tiller over. We eased sails and fell off.

Close, but no harm, no foul, no protest.


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