# 34'Bene vs Columbia 9.6 meter...who's gonna win ??



## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

Just for fun . I'm being baited by 2 guys both with 34' Bene's . They're sailing normal working jibs....I'm sailing a genoa . Feel pretty sure their strategy will be doing everything they can to bury rails & ship green water . Mine will be to keep my boat more up on it's pins not exceeding 15 degrees of heel max . Typically 10-15 knot winds here. So whos' gonna win folks ???


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

While you have not said, which model 34 foot Beneteau your friends have I would assume they are sailing Beneteau 345's rather than much newer Beneteau Oceanis 34's. I have actually raced on both of these, but probably a decade apart.

In a general sense, under PHRF a Beneteau 345 rates over a minute a mile faster than the 9.6, and 345's have a pretty easy time sailing to their ratings. By the same token, the 9.6's have never had an easy time sailing to thier ratings. On the upwind legs, flying a working jib on a 345 without crew weight on the rail would be the right sail up for 10-12 knots of wind. A 9.6 with a full sized genoa would have too much sail up and so would probably be heeled more, and the 9.6 does not tollerate large heel angles without losing speed. With that in mind, in 10-12 knots of wind, the Beneteaus should be much faster upwind. They can point higher, have a better ability to stand up to their sail plan, and have better speed through the water.

Where the 9.6 with a full genoa may do a little better is on deep reaches and runs. The 345's depended on big headsails (or chutes) deep reaching or running, and they may not have enough horsepower with a working jib. If the 345 skippers know their stuff, they will probably not try to run dead down wind, but would heat up a little to fill their sails and generate more apparent wind. That tactic won't work as well for the 9.6's. If they do heat up just a little, they will probably clean your clock downwind and reaching as well. 

Your only hope of beating them boat for boat is if they are not very good sailors and you are a very good sailor. 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. 
Jeff


----------



## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

early 80's Bene's if that makes a difference & I'm old....they're young....I count that as an advantage....make any difference......not familiar with these boats at all


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

kjango said:


> early 80's Bene's if that makes a difference & I'm old....they're young....I count that as an advantage....make any difference......not familiar with these boats at all


From your description, its hard to say precisely which model they have. In the early 1980's there was a Benteau First 35 that was later replaced by the 345. My guess is that these were 345's since that was much more common design than the earlier 35 and you are describing these as 34 footers. The 345 was an exceptional boat for that era. They sailed well on almost all points of sail, were quite fast and reasonably easy to handle. They were actually quite well constructed.

Comparing the two boats, they are three feet longer than your boat, have roughly 4.4 feet more water line length. The 345's are 500 lbs lighter, but with the same ballast as the 9.6 but carried deeper (that is somewhat offset by the 345's cast iron ballast, but that gets offset towards them by your encapsulated ballast. They carry 60 square feet more sail area in their standing rig and have a more efficient keel and rudder. They have an L/D that is roughly 160 less than yours, and an SA/D that is 1.5 higher than yours. They have a hullform which should produce less wake and more effective waterline length when heeled (as a proportion of water line length) than the 9.6.

In other words, you will need to be one heck of a sailor to beat those guys. Especially if the winds are 10-12 knots.

Jeff


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

It really does 
I guess the only thing depends on what model it is, how much time they give you! Of course if you have brand new laminate sails, and they have baggy Dacron it might be even.



> PHRF New England ratings:
> 
> BENETEAU CLASS 10 102
> BENETEAU 345 TM 120
> ...


Though skill can make up for some, that is counting on them being really bad sailors!


----------



## sonosail (Mar 17, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> It really does
> I guess the only thing depends on what model it is, how much time they give you! Of course if you have brand new laminate sails, and they have baggy Dacron it might be even.
> 
> Though skill can make up for some, that is counting on them being really bad sailors!


These boats were actually sold as the FIRST 345 (in US and Europe)
The earlier FIRST 35 (based on a 3/4 ton design) was also advertised as the BENETEAU R/C 35. (most of the ones shipped to the US had taller rigs than the standard.)
Then there was the FIRST CLASS 12. 
It is somewhat frustrating to see the PHRF folks listing them in such an inconsistent manner. (although I admit I'm probably one of a very few people that cares about such a thing. plus, I'm over it.!)


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

sonosail said:


> These boats were actually sold as the FIRST 345 (in US and Europe)
> The earlier FIRST 35 (based on a 3/4 ton design) was also advertised as the BENETEAU R/C 35. (most of the ones shipped to the US had taller rigs than the standard.)
> Then there was the FIRST CLASS 12.
> It is somewhat frustrating to see the PHRF folks listing them in such an inconsistent manner. (although I admit I'm probably one of a very few people that cares about such a thing. plus, I'm over it.!)


Most of the PHRF listings drop the word 'First' from the description to save space unless there are two models with the same designation. They do write out First Class 10 to distinguish the FC 10 from the F 10R. I have not seen how they handle the First Class 12 but then again there on only two or three of them in North America.


----------



## sonosail (Mar 17, 2008)

calling it 
BENETEAU 345 
instead of
FIRST 345 
saves space?


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

sonosail said:


> calling it
> BENETEAU 345
> instead of
> FIRST 345
> saves space?


Well it is a Beneteau so it would be Beneteau First 345. So it does save 6 spaces.

They are really nice boats though.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

sonosail said:


> calling it
> BENETEAU 345
> instead of
> FIRST 345
> saves space?


Of course not. But since most PHRF lists start with the MFR name so that they can autosort, calling it a BENETEAU 345 instead of a BENETEAU FIRST 345 does save space. And for the record, they were in the next booth at the Annapolis show to the Laser 28 booth that I was working when these were new boats and at least according to the literature and the salesmen of the day, they were sold as BENETEAU FIRST 345's with the Beneteau logo in the stripe on the cabin side and the First 345 cut into the stripes below the rail.

I know for some folks this gets confusing because for some reason places like Sailboat Data have it screwed up and don't list them as Beneteau Firsts or Beneteau Oceanis, or Beneteau Idyles, but the actual literature on the Beneteau Firsts are quite clear in calling them Beneteau (written in cursive across the block print of the model names.

Respectfully,

Jeff


----------



## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

Well....sounds like I might be screwed but that's ok.....We'll see what happens . I'm not a racer except in the sense that two boats going in the same direction always seems to generate an increased level of activity on deck....hahaha I once passed a 54 ' hunter with my 82 year old cutter merely because the guy sailing the Hunter wasn't pointing his boat near as high as it would point beating & he was wizard of oz frantic as I was overtaking him. Maybe these guys will do something stupid.....I'm in it for the fun.
Thanks guys for all the info though.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

What will it cost you a few beers, don't worry about it and have fun! That is what it is really about.


----------



## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

You guys have caused me to look up , study , & understand PHRF ratings....lol


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Hope for stupid. It's about the only way you can come out on top. 
John


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

kjango said:


> You guys have caused me to look up , study , & understand PHRF ratings....lol


PHRF are not perfect and some boats seem to be over rated, others under. Folks that race a lot will often pick a boat that sails better than it's rating to give them an advantage. I like to check it out as it gives some indication as to performance.

But as I said, have fun and remember any time two sailboats are heading in the same direction it is a race. (well at least to one of them it is)


----------

