# shoal draft keel vs regular keel



## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

Some boat builders, hunter for example, offered models that are identical except one has a shoal draft (non centerboard) fin keel and the other has a regular fin keel. My own hunter 25for has a shoal draft keel, with about a 50%page ballast to displacement ratio. Draft is actually less than 2.5' to waterline. I feel like the boat could point better, but I don't have the experience on other boats to really compare.

I am now looking at two 1981 hunter 33's. They are in similar shape, similar asking prices. One has a 4'shoal draft, the other 5.5.

Are there any other considerations to be had about this choice besides pointing ability? Just how much worse will a shoal draft boat go to windward? Is a 5.5' draft pushing it for cruising li sound? How about the keys and tortugas?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Peter:
There is no substitute for draft in terms of performance. Of course I sail on Puget Sound where the water is deep so draft is not an issue here. I'm lucky. I tell clents that draft is a "personal problem". If you can't sail in your chosen cruising ground due to draft then that is not "good performance". Personally I would not want a shoal draft boat.

You might also find that in addition to poor performance on the wind the shoal draft boat will give up some stability.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

BobPerry is correct. Shoal draft is a "requirement" of water, not an option of preference, well, it IS an option if you are a trailer sailor (like me).

Honestly if you sail mostly shallow water, you can snicker at the deep fins, who can't get where you go! However, they'll be snickering at you when it comes to open water, and you need to sail close to the wind! 

Like I said there is a special exception to this rule, and that's trailering, where it's dictated not by how deep the water, but how steep the ramp for launching (yourself)... a shoal draft keel is way easier to trailer launch than a deep fin! Some ramps don't even go deep enough for a trailer to get a deep fin launched! hell some aren't even deep enough for the shoal draft keel (stink pot ramps).

There have been many attempts at "fixing" the sailing performance of a shoal draft keel, like the scheel keel (see Compac-Yachts), and shoal/centerboard (oday's and tons others), and like mine, wing/shoal (modern hunter/catalinas) with various degrees of plusses and minuses. Generally speaking though, they all have varying problems with sailing close to the wind.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

peterchech said:


> ...snip...
> Is a 5.5' draft pushing it for cruising li sound? How about the keys and tortugas?


You don't need a shoal draft boat for sailing on the LI Sound as most of it has plenty of depth. Having a shorter draft might only help with anchoring in shallower spots. The big concern on the Sound is the 8' tidal range which can be managed with common sense.

Shoal draft boats are common on the Chesapeake where the water is really shallow quite far from shore. Same with the FL Keys. I've never been to the Tortugas but would assume it is similar to the Keys.

That said, boats with 6' draft sail in these places just fine. They may just have to wait for high tide to get in and out of some anchorages.

I too would avoid a winged keel design.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Nothing wrong with any of the keel designs, again, it's a matter of "what is best for your waters." Lots of people get away with wing keel designs all the way up to 60 footers, again for shallow water haunts (Chessie, and Keys a good example).

One keel design not mentioned, is FULL keel. I'd argue there is nothing more seaworthy than a FULL keel (and the draft is usually acceptable), however you're still not likely to point as well as a fin with one.


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## MC1 (Jan 6, 2008)

As you're deciding this, also keep in mind that there can be a difference between what the manufacture says the draft is and what it actually is when in use with stores, water, fuel, etc.. On my boat, the manufacture claims 4'10", in actual use it's 5'6".


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

bobperry said:


> Peter:
> There is no substitute for draft in terms of performance. Of course I sail on Puget Sound where the water is deep so draft is not an issue here. I'm lucky. I tell clents that draft is a "personal problem". If you can't sail in your chosen cruising ground due to draft then that is not "good performance". Personally I would not want a shoal draft boat.
> 
> You might also find that in addition to poor performance on the wind the shoal draft boat will give up some stability.


 I am curious if you would be able to give your opinion of the many Charlie Morgan's shoal-drafters...perhaps even especially the Morgan Columbia 40. Morgan seems to have designed more than his share of shoal-draught vessels over the years...though I have never sailed one..or even on one. Seafarer and McCurdy Rhodes seemed to have built alot of 'em too.My old Seafarer 24 was a good boat but I sold her before really trying to sail her upwind very much unfortunately.(or fortunately).

If I am correct then shoal-draft c/b boats evolved from sharpie-style workboats originally and so may have never been meant for much other than coastal work but I hope to do alot more than that with the old Morgan Columbia-40 I just acquired...
It has a 4'6"draft and 9-foot w/centerboard which the hydraulic-system is probably shot to hell with rust but I hope to re-engineer...or fix the existing one...I appreciate any of your thoughts you might have on that model...there wasn't many made...(54 or 55) I am wondering if I should try to re-hab of the hydraulic c/b if it's not too far gone.. Or go in a different direction such as convert to a swing keel of some sort,etc.?


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

MC1 said:


> As you're deciding this, also keep in mind that there can be a difference between what the manufacture says the draft is and what it actually is when in use with stores, water, fuel, etc.. On my boat, the manufacture claims 4'10", in actual use it's 5'6".


Granted I don't load up my current boat, but it has a listed draft of 2'11" but when I hauled it out of the water it only had a draft of about 2'4" to the waterline, so I guess this works both ways lol

I think it is pretty apparent that upwind performance is hurt by a shallow keel, but my question is HOW MUCH. Is it a little bit of pointing and VMG lost, like 10%, or is it much more?

Most of these shoal draft keels lack a NACA profile (haha I think even the standard fin keels generally lack this but less so) and are pretty thick, so I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in VMG is pretty high. But nautical engineering seems to be an art as much as a science sometimes...

The other question is, is there any advantage to having weight down low in the keel? *Assuming that the righting moment is identical*, because the shoal drafter has either more lead or a bulbous bottom (my Hunter 25 has both), is there some advantage to having that lower keel? I know that when a boat is dismasted, its motion changes drastically, is there some kind of similar underwater effect to having a longer or shorter keel?


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## Jetexas (Apr 3, 2012)

I have a fin keel that draws 4'11". The shoal draft version of the same boat draws 3'7".

I can't get out of my marina from December - March.

It's a tradeoff.


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## macwester26 (Mar 21, 2013)

peterchech said:


> Some boat builders, hunter for example, offered models that are identical except one has a shoal draft (non centerboard) fin keel and the other has a regular fin keel. My own hunter 25for has a shoal draft keel, with about a 50%page ballast to displacement ratio. Draft is actually less than 2.5' to waterline. I feel like the boat could point better, but I don't have the experience on other boats to really compare.
> 
> I am now looking at two 1981 hunter 33's. They are in similar shape, similar asking prices. One has a 4'shoal draft, the other 5.5.
> 
> Are there any other considerations to be had about this choice besides pointing ability? Just how much worse will a shoal draft boat go to windward? Is a 5.5' draft pushing it for cruising li sound? How about the keys and tortugas?


I have the Macwester 26 they all have shoal draught keels.
again problems Sailed ok but prone to weather helm and poor windward performance largely as a result of

shallow keels and wide beam preventing close sheeting of the jib

So I extended the bilge keels

Click page one for details Page 1

A long and boring job as there was not a lot of area that one could use to hold the vessel up due to the rounded shape of the hull.

But now done..


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

My 3 foot board up modified full keel-8 foot board down, heavy frikin swing keel Soverel 28 is the best of both worlds. I point high and run like sled in a big folloiwng sea, instead of fighting to turn into each following swell like the fin keels I deliver. I'm up in creeks, close to the beach, inside shallow protected bay's, and 800 miles off shore with a deep draft, beam reach'n with a 6 foot draft, what ever I chose. Love'n it!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

To have a good idea of the importance of draft go to a PHRF list and see what is the difference in rating between the same boat with a deep draft keel and a shallow draft keel. It is quite big.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I used to think Draft Draft Draft, but now after some experience in big seas with different designs, I think Design Design Design. Deep draft fin-torpedo keels give a false sense of security. Those things break like twigs. I've spoken before about a delivery I did on 27 Benny first with the 3 foot wing thing on it. It made a believer out of me in what I call the "Blue Circle" which is that ever present area of disturbance that sit's north of Columbia. It's almost always blow'n 25 and seas are stacked high with a swell on a swell with a chop on top of that. That little boat was right at home in those conditions. Of course Multi's are an example of design over draft as well. Am I at home in a full keeled 12 foot draft'n 50 footer? Absoulutely, but only till I get to where I'm going, then My a$$ is tighter than snare drum when I'm entering port ( if i can enter). Again, the versatility of my Soverel is a great thing. 8 foot draft on a 28 footer. And my center board is a Big heavy S.O.B. 2" thick epoxy and glass laid up full of lead buck shot through out. dropping out of a 3 foot full keel and weighing in at about 300 pounds, and about 500 pounds of lead pigs in the bildge above that. Design, verastility, performance, options. Just my penny and 1/2's worth.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Capt.aaron said:


> ... Deep draft fin-torpedo keels give a false sense of security. Those things break like twigs. ....


??????? How many do you know that have broken in many thousands of cruising boats?

Regards

Paulo


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

PCP said:


> ??????? How many do you know that have broken in many thousands of cruising boats?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Just off the top of my head, there was one in the Gulf of Mexico a couple of years ago, left one sailor dead, and three ( 2 teenagers) drifting in life jackets for 48 hours. They did an episode on a show called. "I should be Dead" And of course it happens to Off shore Racer cruisers, that famous single handed racing dude a few years ago, maybe 10 years, he was almost to Europe from the states, sailing to the start of a race I think.Time slides by me, and so the deatils. One thing sticks with me though, those stupid peice sh!t keels have put speed above safety, and newbies buy into it, taking the design for granted, and periodically I hear of yet another one snapping off, and people put in peril. I don't have the interest to go research on statistics for you. One does'nt need to be an engineer to just look at the construction and design to see the low heavy torpedo, the thin glass fin attached to the light hull to see how fragile the friken things are. And only ONE has to snap of where it's attached and kill one person for me to deam it unsafe. You can take that 2 cents to bank and invest it. I guaranty ya another one will break soon, and you'll double your money when I give another 2 cents worth.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Capt.aaron said:


> Just off the top of my head, there was one in the Gulf of Mexico a couple of years ago, left one sailor dead, and three ( 2 teenagers) drifting in life jackets for 48 hours. They did an episode on a show called. "I should be Dead" And of course it happens to Off shore Racer cruisers, that famous single handed racing dude a few years ago, maybe 10 years, he was almost to Europe from the states, sailing to the start of a race I think.Time slides by me, and so the deatils. One thing sticks with me though, those stupid peice sh!t keels have put speed above safety, and newbies buy into it, taking the design for granted, and periodically I hear of yet another one snapping off, and people put in peril. I don't have the interest to go research on statistics for you. One does'nt need to be an engineer to just look at the construction and design to see the low heavy torpedo, the thin glass fin attached to the light hull to see how fragile the friken things are. And only ONE has to snap of where it's attached and kill one person for me to deam it unsafe. You can take that 2 cents to bank and invest it. I guaranty ya another one will break soon, and you'll double your money when I give another 2 cents worth.


I thought that you have said : *Those things break like twigs. ....*

There are ten's of thousands of boats like that and you remember two or three???...and some in race boats that can hit objects at over 20k speed?

and : *"One does'nt need to be an engineer to just look at the construction and design to see the low heavy torpedo, the thin glass fin attached to the light hull to see how fragile the friken things are."*

Well, look at this one on a race boat, probably more fragile than the one on a cruising boat, since the weight is at a minimum: This guy was racing a mini transat, he slept too much and his boat has thrown by the waves onto a Brazilian beach. These boats have a big draft so you can imagine that keel with the boat pushed by the waves...Bong, Bong, Bong till laying down on the sand.

Then the guy asked to a powerful fishing boat to pull him out from the beach and again: Bong, Bong, Bong.

The keel had not any problem and after some minor repair on one of the rudders the guy sailed the boat back to France.






So: *"Those things break like twigs. ...."One does'nt need to be an engineer to just look at the construction and design to see the low heavy torpedo, the thin glass fin attached to the light hull to see how fragile the friken things are."*

Well, it looked pretty tough to me

Regards

Paulo


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I exagerate on the "Twig" analogy, but I don't like 'em. If a keel can potentially break right off the friken boat, IMOP it's a poor design, and since I can think of any at all is a testiment. I've forgotten more things than I know, but I know I've heard of more of them breaking off than what I consider to be acceptable.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

PCP, 
Thanks for the video. I got to say that thing took a beating. Still not fan though.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Capt.aaron said:


> PCP,
> Thanks for the video. I got to say that thing took a beating. Still not fan though.


Fair enough

Regards

Paulo


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## CapnRon47 (Jul 29, 2007)

As has been mentioned your sailing area and conditions may dictate what kind of boat you might get. Here in NC on the Pamlico sound we have wind tides instead of Lunar tides. So when the wind blows from the south for several days the water goes north (it is a long sound). The water at our dock dropped 3', from a nominal level of 4 1/2', you do the math. Here is what our boat Heron looked like under those conditions;









She is a swing keel boat, with the keel (and rudder) up she draws 1'10" and down about 6'. The keel is 3,000 lbs of lead and is designed to provide good sailing in all positions. I knew this was the kind of boat I would need here to have many good sailing days under all conditions.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

3' of drop! I wish! 16' is while not common, reasonably common enough to say common in the salish sea in some area's! Still, I would take a deep fin vs a shallow fin/wing style. Or as mentioned, a CB style way before the shallow fixed if I need to get into skinny water. Then again, where I sail less than 1/2 to 1 mile off shore, one see's 3 dash's on the depth guage, meaning beyond 600'...........does one really think 2' of lesser sailing ability is worth it at this point!

Marty


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## CapnRon47 (Jul 29, 2007)

Marty,
What was worth it to me was the ability to keep the boat at the dock at our house. I could be at a marina with plenty of depth and probably only 15 minutes away, but here I work on the boat and sail it more often. Plus the dock fee's go into the boat maintenance kitty!


Ron


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

A deep draft keel outperforms a shoal draft keel right up to the point the deep draft keel hits the bottom, and the shoal draft keel keeps going. 

I have a shoal draft keel (fin) and I would love to have the deeper draft version for better performance. But, where I sail most of the time, it just isn't an option.

It's too bad centerboard boats aren't more popular and the designs didn't keep improving. Best of both worlds if done correctly.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Ron,

Inyour shoes, I would take what you choose too, and for the VERY same reasons mind you! The 3' of tide change is pretty small all thing considering. THen again, on lk washington where I grew up sailing on, there was 2-3' between the winter and summer height. lower in the winter than summer. so some places became rather shallow, others not really.

At the end of the day, one much choose a keel type on the where they will sail, store etc. The best all around from the shoal to deep, is a cb, then a fin to a will not buy a shoal/wing for how I sail per say. 

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Group9 said:


> A deep draft keel outperforms a shoal draft keel right up to the point the deep draft keel hits the bottom, and the shoal draft keel keeps going.
> 
> I have a shoal draft keel (fin) and I would love to have the deeper draft version for better performance. But, where I sail most of the time, it just isn't an option.
> 
> It's too bad centerboard boats aren't more popular and the designs didn't keep improving. Best of both worlds if done correctly.


I agree with what you say except that the designs don't keep improving. This was the bigger improvement of the last decades in what regards boats with variable draft and swallow draft, a concept that was previously developed along the years by Finot and that now is used in many boats.










The keel is ballasted, it provides not only a big draft when down as a a very low CG. It permits very good sailor performance to boats capable of having a mooring in very shallow waters, something that was not possible before, except with much more complicated and expensive bulbed lifting keels.

Regards

Paulo


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## CapnRon47 (Jul 29, 2007)

The Clearwater model design came out of the late 80's. They only made 7 of the 35' versions (there was a larger version as well 46', I think)










The keel is several thousand pounds of lead and is designed like a wing. The rudder also kicks up and can be manipulated with lines under the captain seat.










She points fairly well, but I am not much of a racer, the original owner was.

The drawback is that the salon is divided by the cabinet that houses the keel when it swings up. There is still seating for 6:










(excuse the mess, I was working on the electrical system when this was taken)

Just less convenient than conventional. But for the 2 of us there is plenty of room.

Ron


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Ron, 

Even my boat with a deep keel for its size, has the table running down the middle, so a CB truck would really not interfer per say! SO reality is, at the end of the day, as said before, correct keel for the task you have at hand, along with interior floorplan to suit your needs, is the correct boat for you.

I know of a person on the east coast with my boat but the CB version, rated a bit slower, but not enough to throw it out of the ball game from a which boat would I buy game. There is not a wing/shoal keel version to know how much slower it would be. but my guess is since the CB is 10sec or so slower, the wing probably another 10-20 secs on a 189 based boat.

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

CapnRon47 said:


> The Clearwater model design came out of the late 80's. They only made 7 of the 35' versions (there was a larger version as well 46', I think)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Clearwater 35 is a great design, ahead of its time, but it is not the same concept as the one that I was talking about. The boat shares the same concept with Southerlies (that has been using it since 1978), that has about half the ballast in the bilge, half the ballast on the keel.

Southerly 110

The concept I was talking about and that is a recent one, it is about boats with a Swing keel with *all ballast* on the keel. Those keels have not only a much bigger draft compared with the Clearwater/Southerly concept (About 3m to about 2m) as they have also a bigger volume on their deepest part.

The Bigger draft, the all ballast down on the keel gives to this concept an incomparably much bigger RM for a given weight of ballast, allowing these boats to have a lot of power and stability for a reduced weight of ballast.

Finot has worked on this concept since the 70's,










till the actual formulation, that is used by several designers with very small alterations.

Regards

Paulo


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I've also got a Clearwater 35 like Ron's. According to the builder, I've got 5500 lbs of lead ballast, half of which is inside the leading edge of the NACA foil shaped swing keel. The other half is glassed into the very slack bilge. My displacement is 12500 lbs, according to the rating folks (who also rated Heron). That would make the displacement to ballast ratio 0.44.

The Clearwater will go to weather with the best of them and stay on her feet at the same time. When beating, I will rarely heel more than 20 degrees--much less, say than a Bristol 35.5.

My point is that the ballast arrangement, along with form stability, seems to work very well in the Clearwater. The narrow cabin and inboard chainplates allows for tight sheeting angles, which also helps. The underbody looks very much like the Southerly design, although we only have a single, deeper draft rudder (which also swings to allow a minimum 1' 10" draft).


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Sourthelies are great cruisers and by what I have heard from you and other owners the Clearwater 35 too. I don't intend to deny that (quite the opposite) just pointing out that the new development of swing keels (with deep draft and all ballast on the keel) permits to have not only good cruisers but performance cruisers too. Several members have those kind of boats and they permit planning with some ease at two figure speeds.

They are not used only on small boats anymore (they started to be used many years ago on the smaller First) but also huge yachts are starting to use them instead of more complicated and expensive lifting keels.

Regards

Paulo


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Has anybody heard or know of any big weather or Trans ocean passages on a Southerly? When I saw my first Southerly Advert. in a sail mag and the photo was of a 40 something up on a beach, I was sold. I do big passages in heavy weather on my little swing keel sloop, but I have a 3 foot modified full keel. I know Comadore Monroe did some big weather stuff with his fleet of Sharpies. Lets face it. I like sailing, but what I like more is where I'm sailing to. Constantly in search of the secluded lagoon with the desserted sandy, palm tree beach. The closer I can get to shore the more I like the place. A big Cat is my goal because wife does'nt like tilting, A Southerly may be the answere If I can teach her the comfort of heeling over on a properly ballasted boat.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Capt.aaron said:


> .... A big Cat is my goal because wife does'nt like tilting, A Southerly may be the answere If I can teach her the comfort of heeling over on a properly ballasted boat.


Aaron -
If and when you put your Soverel 28 up for sale, shoot me a pm. Thanks!


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

joebeach said:


> Aaron -
> If and when you put your Soverel 28 up for sale, shoot me a pm. Thanks!


Thanks, and I take that as a compliment. It will never happen. I've been sailing on it with Granpa since I was 6, lived on it with him from years 8 to 10, most of 13. and periodically as a teenager, all if my 18th year. I single handled it to Belize when was 19, Lived on it all through my 20' s and 30's. I've sunk it twice and sold it once, bought it back a year later. I've done 3 full restorations, and am currently about to sail it south to relocate it to Honduras. I've been in dire straights, broke as joke, so I know I will never sell it again, unless it's to one of my Grandfathers other Grand children, and I'd probably just give it to them. No this boat is staying in the Family. Sorry. But I do see them around from time to time. I'll let you know what I come up with. i saw one on sailboat listings .com and there is one anchored off of Coconut Grove.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Capt.aaron said:


> Has anybody heard or know of any big weather or Trans ocean passages on a Southerly? ...


Lot's of them. Southerly are very Seaworthy boats. Unfortunately they are also quite expensive. I guess that their 35ft (110) or even the 32 would be more than enough for you but their prices on the used market are quite high.


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## olddog60 (Oct 20, 2011)

Capt.aaron said:


> Has anybody heard or know of any big weather or Trans ocean passages on a Southerly? When I saw my first Southerly Advert. in a sail mag and the photo was of a 40 something up on a beach, I was sold. I do big passages in heavy weather on my little swing keel sloop, but I have a 3 foot modified full keel. I know Comadore Monroe did some big weather stuff with his fleet of Sharpies. Lets face it. I like sailing, but what I like more is where I'm sailing to. Constantly in search of the secluded lagoon with the desserted sandy, palm tree beach. The closer I can get to shore the more I like the place. A big Cat is my goal because wife does'nt like tilting, A Southerly may be the answere If I can teach her the comfort of heeling over on a properly ballasted boat.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distant_Shores_(Sailing_TV_series)

In Series five they finally buy a Southerly 42, named Distant Shores in which they travel from England to the Caribbean and the Bahamas, via the Madeira and the Canary Islands. Due to the boat's low draft (it has a swing keel) they were able to explore areas inaccessible to other boats.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

fallard said:


> I've also got a Clearwater 35 like Ron's. According to the builder, I've got 5500 lbs of lead ballast, half of which is inside the leading edge of the NACA foil shaped swing keel. The other half is glassed into the very slack bilge. My displacement is 12500 lbs, according to the rating folks (who also rated Heron). That would make the displacement to ballast ratio 0.44.
> 
> The Clearwater will go to weather with the best of them and stay on her feet at the same time. When beating, I will rarely heel more than 20 degrees--much less, say than a Bristol 35.5.
> 
> My point is that the ballast arrangement, along with form stability, seems to work very well in the Clearwater. The narrow cabin and inboard chainplates allows for tight sheeting angles, which also helps. The underbody looks very much like the Southerly design, although we only have a single, deeper draft rudder (which also swings to allow a minimum 1' 10" draft).


Did you own her about 10 years ago? If so, I saw you one evening in Mystic, I was puttering around the harbor in my inflatable with my girlfriend, we exchanged a few words with you about the boat... She's a beauty, alright...

I've always loved Craig Walters' designs, one of my all-time dreamboats is your larger sister, the Seguin 40 built by Lyman-Morse... I was sort of semi-seriously considering buying this one 10 years ago, the price was actually lower than it is now...

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=75470&url=



















NICHE had been beautifully finished by her original owner, a master carpenter... However, having done the same thing with my own boat (not nearly so beautifully, I'm afraid) all I could see when going aboard, was how I would have done things differently. I didn't care for the dinette arrangement, and I think the general concept of your layout is a lot more practical, and versatile... However, I still lust for another Seguin 40 to come on the market, a real rarity as L-M only built 8 of them, I believe...

It's a pity Holby didn't get to build many more of the Clearwaters, they really were a boat ahead of their time, seems there would be a real market for them today... Hard to think of a more ideal boat for the Bahamas (not to mention the entire Eastern seaboard, of course), it would be incredible some of the things you could do over there with your draft...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

olddog60 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distant_Shores_(Sailing_TV_series)
> 
> In Series five they finally buy a Southerly 42, named Distant Shores in which they travel from England to the Caribbean and the Bahamas, via the Madeira and the Canary Islands. Due to the boat's low draft (it has a swing keel) they were able to explore areas inaccessible to other boats.


That was back in 2007. They liked so much the boat that they changed it by a Southerly 49, I guess for having more space for paid guests, another way to say charter work

'DISTANT SHORES' Southerly 49, finishes the ARC | Humphreys Yacht Design

Southerly - News - Distant Shores New Season










Regards

Paulo


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## olddog60 (Oct 20, 2011)

Love that boat. But....Out of my price range.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

I love Southerly's. Very well built. I met a couple that sail a southerly 57. Stunning boat. The nice thing about a southerly is..... when you board a newer one for the first time you can smell the wood! You have to be there to appreciate it. It doesn't smell like plastic. 
My dream boat right now is a Southerly 420. Maybe in a couple years....

A southerly is to have your cake and eat it too.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

Southerly 420 - Introduction


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Did you own her about 10 years ago? If so, I saw you one evening in Mystic, I was puttering around the harbor in my inflatable with my girlfriend, we exchanged a few words with you about the boat... She's a beauty, alright...
> 
> I've always loved Craig Walters' designs, one of my all-time dreamboats is your larger sister, the Seguin 40 built by Lyman-Morse... I was sort of semi-seriously considering buying this one 10 years ago, the price was actually lower than it is now...
> 
> It's a pity Holby didn't get to build many more of the Clearwaters, they really were a boat ahead of their time, seems there would be a real market for them today... Hard to think of a more ideal boat for the Bahamas (not to mention the entire Eastern seaboard, of course), it would be incredible some of the things you could do over there with your draft...


I've owned SeaScape since 1996 and she's always stayed at my dock about 400 ft south of Mystic Seaport. I do recall a number of inquiries by water, but don't recall all of the specifics. We also get a lot of interest from folks walking by on land. We live in a busy, touristy place!

Holby probably had some bad luck when the 10% luxury tax was imposed on boats over $100K in 1990. My boat (hull #7) was built in 1990 and is the last of the Clearwater 35s. This "soak the rich" policy backfired as a number of boat builders went out of business. Holby Marine hung on for quite a while, but finally succumbed about 2 years ago.

One of the realities of the Clearwater/Seguin design was that the keel and rudder, with their mechanics and housings, added perhaps 30% to the cost of the boat--compared to a conventional approach. The added 10% tax (in addition to sales tax, of course) may have been the kiss of death. Keep in mind that these were semi-custom boats in the first place, so they were at least twice as expensive as a comparably-sized production boat.


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## CapnRon47 (Jul 29, 2007)

I also looked at Southerly's for the conditions I have at my home port, but the price deterred me. I have only had "Heron" for 5 years, the previous owners kept her in excellent condition, I am trying to do the same. I was very lucky to find her when I did (I have hull #5).

I only have hearsay evidence that one of the 7 Clearwater boats has circumnavigated the globe, as such I believe they are seaworthy. My concern is what happens to that swing keel during a knockdown. I believe there is a mechanism to lock the keel in the down position built into the keel cabinet, but I have not investigated it as I have only be a coastal cruiser. My boat has a hydraulic system that prevents the keel from dropping rapidly unintentionally. The details in design and mechanisms evolved as they built these 7 boats, but the basic design is the same. Barrett Holby told me that the boat was designed to sail with the keel in any position, it was just a matter of how much leeway you could tolerate. I agree with Fallard in that my boat seems to find its groove at about 20 degrees of heel. I don't have a video, but I do have a nice picture taken during the Leukemia Regatta in NC last year.










I understand there may be another Clearwater 35 for sale in the Northeast, somewhat distressed due to a winter storm, for those that might be interested.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

My understanding is that one of first Clearwater 35s, Kodiak, completed a circumnavigation, which is also stated in the listing found at Boater's Resources: Boating, marinas, accessories, equipment, and supplies at discounts you'll love!.

When I was checking out the Clearwater, prior to seeing the one I finally bought in Florida, I visited the factory and interviewed Barrett Holby about this boat. I had a question about the keel "falling up" in a capsize, as it is controlled by a block and tackle arrangement and held in position by gravity alone. The original design showed a hydraulic arrangement that would have held the keel in position, but it was apparently never used in the actual construction.

I have a pin that is inserted in the keel trunk to act as a stop, but when I expressed my concern, Barrett suggested if I ever found myself in a situation where there was a threat of capsizing, that I should completely retract the keel. His logic was disarming: "Did you ever see a log capsize?" Since the ballast is contained in the leading edge of the keel in in the bilge, all of the ballast is low when the keel is completely retracted.

Another aspect of a retracted keel is that you can't trip on it. Note from a photo posted earlier, that--like the Southerly--there is only a smooth whaleback shape when the keel is fully retracted.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Those interested in a centerboard weekender might look at the J/95 which draws 3.0" with the board up. In 2010 CRUSING WORLD named the J/95 the "Domestic Boat of the Year" and the "Best Weekender". Although reportedly built to ISO standards for crossing oceans in up to Force 10 winds, most of us would be interested in it's ability to navigate shoal water of Cape Cod, Great South Bay, Barnegat Bay, Chesapeake Bay, the Low Country of Georgia and the Carolinas, the Bahamas, Florida Keys, the Gulf Coast from Florida to Texas.


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## Tallswede (Jul 18, 2012)

I have seen a few replies that said their preference would not be a wing keel. I can see where one of these when run into the mud might be tough to get out. On the other hand, they let you carry ballast low with a shallow draft. It also seems that leeway would be less than a standard shallow fin as the wings would serve as lateral resistance as the boat heeled. I know all boats are compromises, I'm trying to find something that will work well in the shallows of the Texas Gulf Coast as well as something for the Bahamas and Great Loop. Does anyone have experience with wing keels good/bad?

Kevin


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

I have owned two boats with wing keels. Both of these boats were in the Chesapeake, where wing keels have some advantege in the shallow water. 

There are plenty of performance disadvantages, but if you want to reduce draft from 6' to 4.5', for example, then a wing can be a good option.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I stated earlier that I took a wing keel Bennetau first from Key West, through the Bahamas, to jamacia and on down across the center of The Caribbean to Columbia. It was my first and only experience with a wing, but handled everything like a champ. The Volvo water pump sh!t the bed in Jamacia, I sailed it off the dock in light winds, out the channel. 450 miles open water to Columbia, the last part in 15 to 20 foot choppy seas, high winds, finishing with a tight squeez through the old spanish pirate wall at the entrance to Cartegania, and a brisk short tack 4 miles up into the Harbour to Club Nautico, and anchored right off the dock in a tight anchorage, all as I said, all under sail. Earlier We had crossed the banks in the bahamas and across from Nassau to the Exumas. while sailing down the Exumas a leaky rudder post caused me to run in to a shallow, un marked cut with a broken engine at night. we sailed down the leeward side a few miles at sunrise in 5 feet of water and fixed the problems in Staniel Cay. An uneventful run down to jamacia from there where the engine finally craped out for good. Prior to all that we motor sailed from key west to Bimini, and encounterd a rough passage in the straights. To sum it up, yes i do belive it's a good seaworthy, and performance under sail design. But I would'nt want to run aground in one.


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## Tallswede (Jul 18, 2012)

Yeah, that whole running aground thing. My current boat has a centerboard and water ballast so I've been spoiled by pretty much going anywhere I want to go. The only experience I've had with a wing keel is my friends Bene 32. I really like his boat but we did get stuck for a few minutes in the mud just off the Galveston ship channel. Had we been in a fin keeler we probably would have had an easier time getting out. As it was, a combination of swinging out on the boom and reversing/rocking finally got us out of there. I can only imagine what would happen had we hit some rocks or shell reef.

Kevin


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

peterchech said:


> I think it is pretty apparent that upwind performance is hurt by a shallow keel, but my question is HOW MUCH. Is it a little bit of pointing and VMG lost, like 10%, or is it much more?
> 
> Most of these shoal draft keels lack a NACA profile (haha I think even the standard fin keels generally lack this but less so) and are pretty thick, so I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in VMG is pretty high. But nautical engineering seems to be an art as much as a science sometimes...


 I'll take a whack at your question, "HOW MUCH" on shoal vs deep draft.

If you're comparing the same boat with shoal/deep draft options, I'd guess it would be no more than 5 degrees, average. I base this on many years with a full keel centerboard boat that has 4' and 8' of draft with a simple flat plate bronze board.

There's little difference(if at all at) in how the boat feels board up vs board down. But you can often see the increase in your GPS track over the ground. Sailing to windward, a 5 degree average windward increase, sometimes more, sometimes less, is what I see.

Another thing I base my guess on, my friend has a J35. It points higher than my 1961 centerboarder  . How much higher? I'd guess in 15 knots, sailing alongside, about 10 degrees. That's a lot.

Does that mean if I bolted his 7' foil shaped deep keel on my 1961 yawl, I'd point 10 degrees higher? No. 

It's a combination of all the design differences in the two boats, not just one factor like draft(although sailboat hype may want you to believe it's one "new" advance).

Expect a boat with deep draft to sail a few degrees higher than the same with shoal draft.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I agree if we are talking about the same boat in the two configurations but it is not only a better pointing ability but also probably more 5º of leeway at least with some wind. The boat will also track better at high angles of heel and will be more forgiving in what regards rounding up.


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## ftldiver (Sep 9, 2002)

There are many marinas and channels with a limiting depth of 4' in the fla keys. 

you end up using the dingy more with the fin in the Fl Keys. and need to pick your anchorages.


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## Coolphive (Mar 16, 2016)

Hey all I am looking at purchasing a Tanzer 25 Shoal Keel, never sailed a shoal always regular fin, was going to use it on Lake Simcoe, do you guys feel thats a good idea or should i up for a deeper draft?


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

If Lake Simcoe is generally pretty deep, as I believe it is, then unless you plan to gunkhole up its tributaries or want to store your boat on a trailer, the regular/deep fin is probably the way to go. Better overall performance, pointing ability, and righting moment.

OTOH if the particular boat at which you are looking is well-maintained, and otherwise ticks your boxes, then go for it. Especially if you don't plan on racing it regularly. Let your gut make the final decision. Good luck!


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