# is this folly?



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

hi all, 

obviously i am new here, and i am also a novice sailor. i am however a fairly experienced adventurer. so i just wanted to get some thoughts/feedback on an idea i had to see if you guys with much more sea experience think it's a bad idea.

here's what i want to do: i am going to be building a larger, more open water friendly version on a pd racer. then i want to take her from Traverse Bay to Beaver Island. part of this idea is to see how much i can get away with doing things without electrical aids, and as such would be doing the open water part with only a compass.

hahahaha, i am sure most of you are already shaking your heads and thinking i am dumb for even entertaining this notion. and you are probably right. but what I am looking for is some real constructive criticism about things to keep in mind that might help me from drowning. thanks for any feedback all, and have a good one...

:ship-captain:


----------



## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

It's a bad idea.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

There's a lot of room left in your post for interpretation.

First of all, the electronics issue is a total non issue, I am sure people familiar with the area sail to Beaver Island all the time without electronics. I don't think finding a large populated island 32 miles offshore without electronics would even qualify as unique or challenging. However, I would strongly consider carrying some emergency rescue electronics like a spot or an EPIRB in case you do get into trouble.

The boat issue is different. If your plan is to build a proper plywood vessel from plans, using recognised construction techniques- I think it sounds like fun. If your plan is to build some plywood box POS out of gorilla glue and decking screws- it's a dumb idea, likely to get yourself killed.

Provided you do plan on building a reasonably sound boat, you wear a drysuit and don't take silly risks, it might work.


----------



## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

The drysuit is for when your boat founders because you don't belong on the water, and you're floating around in fifty degree water and need someone to rescue you before you freeze to death.

It would be a lonely, black, frightening death.

The drysuit would give you fifty or sixty minutes to think and scream that you wouldn't have without it before you die.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

So you're assuming a properly constructed unballasted plywood boat would sink like a stone? Capsize and swamping seem like more likely outcomes to me. I have found myself unexpectedly capsized, swamped and just generally in the water unplanned on the great lakes, each on more than one occasion, and I can say from experience, I would rather do it with a dry suit on, than without one on. You know people swim in the great lakes, right?

I am saying with a proper boat, proper boat, proper boat, proper preparation and proper gear it can be done, I'm not saying he should just wing it.

http://www.soloswims.com/swims.htm


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

ahha,

well thanks for the good chuckle j-6. and i appreciate your direct opinion.

with regards to arcb's input, i agree that navigating would probably (?) be the least of my worries. my main concern there would be sailing and navigating single-handed. like i can see myself trying to take bearings, run the tiller, and trim the sail and by the time i take a good reading i've already blown a bit off course. then fast forward till it's dark and i completely miss the island and end up sailing into the u.p. and/or a storm. 

as for the boat, I would like to build a sound 12-footer with a semi- enclosed deck and relatively high gunwales to avoid as much overlapping as possible. i plan on having airboxes on all sides and a mast-float. in the event of capsizing i will have to practice with it and see how realistic it is to right the ship in a decent chop by myself. the more i think about this the more i would like to have a second hand.

so i know that the winds would most likely be from the west or s-west, and i would be heading due north. in your experience, how long of a sail would i have assuming an average of about 4 mph and 30 mile crossing in perfect conditions? hahaha, sorry , i know so little as to not even know what i really need to know. the wetsuit is a good idea, as are emergency beacons jic. thanks!


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

If you want adventures, just get a boat and go sailing. I guarantee you will get close to crapping in your pants almost daily out there.
As to walking on water, Jesus did that and there is no need for imitations.


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

kriscross (will make you -jump, jump!),

not sure i get your jesus reference. i hope to not be in the water if at all possible. and yes, i agree that adventures can be had almost anywhere! this summer will be spent on the water as much as possible. next summer would be the most likely time i would try open water. and as far as a boat, they are expensive and i would prefer to make my own. unless you have a spare laying around that you would like to give me


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

If you are doing it just to see if you can, have a power boat tag along for a quick rescue if needed.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Another Howard Rice .. except Howard has lots of backing sailing his 12 ft boat round the horn. 

Ever built a boat?


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Dude, you want to build a pd racer from scratch. That WILL cost you far more than a used sailboat you can pick up on eBay and sail right away. I bought several of them that way.
As to 'walking on water' reference: when you decide to sail a pd racer from Traverse Bay to Beaver Island you will be walking back home because these boats will not make it.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Rrrrright


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

ha! thanks for the input guys and gals...

so no, i have never built a boat. i have built lots of other things, but never a boat. and as far as materials i have plenty of ways to keep the costs down (salvaged materials and fiberglass kit) and fully expect to have a sound boat for around $500. and part of this whole idea is to go from nothing to completing a (fairly decent) open water sail with minimal cost and experience!

and denise those pictures are of class-spec pd racers which is the only type of boat i have ever sailed. my plan is to build a slightly larger hull for open water and have a bit more sail for higher speeds. i know this seems crazy, but i also know that human beings sailed across the oceans thousands of years ago with less boat than an average sailor today. and after all, it's only 30 miles of open water 

my take is overwhelmingly then that this is a bad idea...


----------



## twoshoes (Aug 19, 2010)

Rent a boat for a couple of days from somewhere that will cost you a lot less time and money than building your own, not to mention be much safer.

Here's a suggestion for one.

Have fun, and remember there is no vessel or trip too small in which a float plan given to a friend or family member isn't a good idea.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

t-money said:


> i am however a fairly experienced adventurer.





t-money said:


> in your experience, how long of a sail would i have assuming an average of about 4 mph and 30 mile crossing in perfect conditions?!


These two comments seem to be in conflict. Whether by land, sea or air, every adventurer I know starts their day by figuring how far they have to go and how long it will take.

The kind of boat you are talking about I would figure 1-2 knots if it rows well, and I would plan on lots of rowing if the weather going to be nice enough to finish.

If you are serious about doing this, I see it as a multi year project, given your experience. Put a boat together with the goal of crossing one of the southern arms of Grand Traverse Bay. 4 miles across open water should be plenty to scare you the first year. Make improvements to your design over several years, and when you're ready, you can build something, that rows well for the big crossing.

It's an interesting sounding project, but you could have a really awful or even deadly experience if you rush it.


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

For under $500 you can get this Catalina 27 in Michigan: 1983 Catalina 27' Sailboat - Michigan | eBay
And it is a proper boat, with engine and good set of sails, that can take you sailing all over Great Lakes in relative safety and comfort.
But if you want to create your own Jackass episode, by all means, sail a pd racer to Beaver Island


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

PD Racer to Beaver Island. Possible yes but why? It would probably take many days to make that sail in a PD Racer. No guarantee on weather, which changes quickly on the Great Lakes. Under absolute perfect wind and seas 30 miles at 4 mph is approximately 8 hours and you will not ever hold a perfect course, or find a wind sustained at 15 for from one direction for 8 hours or seas so friendly. I would be amazed if you made it under 30 hours. Use barometer and mind the lows. First try going to the Manitou islands after extensive practice in snotty conditions. Fog is a possibility making a GPS worth while. How far and long do you think you could paddle your PD Racer filled with water, freezing your butt off, puking over the side from your new found seasickness? There are so many boats that can be had cheap that would be way more fun, way safer, for very little money. Put up a wanted free sailboat listing on Craigslist spend some time learning in the bay, figure what needs fixing and reinforcing, get some safety gear, consider all the what ifs. 

If you want to build a boat. The PD Racer is probably a great first and affordable boat to build. You could learn a ton sailing around in the bay on a little PD Racer and my guess is that you would soon realize why a minimum of 30 hours on the big lake is not what you want. You would still have learned a ton had a great adventure and built a boat. Not so bad.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

open boat, open water, = bath tub


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

hey again all,

thanks again for all the input! @Waterrat, that is the sort of calculations and advice i was hoping to receive. realistic sailing experience with timing and expectations (not that the rest of you all don't have realistic experience and advice). and yes, my plan is to sail the width and breadth of both bays in a single go as a training trip. if it takes me 3 days, then it takes me 3 days.

arcb, i don't feel the need to elaborate on my experience other than to say i have more outdoor experience than most people combined in some of the most remote places on earth, and most often alone. which is why i know enough to seek advice on things i know nothing about. and i know enough that sailing and driving, or sailing and hiking are two totally unrelated things when it comes to planning and timing. i have never sailed open water. and i only have limited sailing experience.

i think the suggestions about a motor boat "sag-wagon" is a great idea. and to answer the question of "why", because it sounds like a great adventure and something i have never done before. i also agree that 30 hours sailing single-handed in a small boat would be a whole lot. and i have not entered seasickness into the equation so far, so that is also great to keep in mind!!

also waterrat, i see you are in Michigan. would you mind teaching me a few things hands-on? all the real experience i can get would be very helpful.


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

krisscross,

wow...ok, i'm very puzzled. how is it that a boat like that can be so cheap? even with the 300 title fee, that seems like some sort of a scam or something. what am i missing?


----------



## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Knowledge!
This is a prime example why I think the Coast Guard should charge for rescue.
Guy with 0 experience setting of in a completely unsuitable boat.
I sail a 25' boat on the great lakes, weather can change in minutes and give you a real butt kicking.
Seen it go from flat calm to 2-3 meter waves in under an hour!


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

t-money said:


> krisscross,
> 
> wow...ok, i'm very puzzled. how is it that a boat like that can be so cheap? even with the 300 title fee, that seems like some sort of a scam or something. what am i missing?


No scam. These are boats donated to legit charities. When there is no demand for this type of boat, they sell for next to nothing. Bought 3 boats that way, all under $400 total money paid. I fixed them up, sailed for a while, and then sold them for a bit of profit.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I didn't ask you to elaborate on your experience.

I disagree with you that the fundamentals of land navigation are different than the fundamentals of water navigation. If you have to hike 12 km and your known walking speed is 4 kph, you can estimate the hike will take about 3 hours. That's why I gave you the more realistic figure of 1-2 knots to work with. 

The shortest possible route from traverse city to Beaver island is about 56 miles. Taking the shortest route would be a rather risky approach (not the approach I would use). For a realistic figure, for actual distance covered, I would double the distance on a map. So let's call that 112 miles. At an optimistic 2 knots, that's 56 hours of sailing time.

I kind of assume this boat will have no autopilot, so let's say 12 hour days. So there you go, I would plan about 4 and a half days.


----------



## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

If you want to make the trip in the most seaworthy boat you can afford, get a used sailboat. If your motivation for doing this is to make it across in what appears to be a very unsuitable boat, then not only make the big PD Racer out out plywood, go ahead and make it out of residential exterior sheathing and Gorilla glue. There are plenty of people who have done crazier things. One caveat; don't involve the Coast Guard if things go wrong.


----------



## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

What is a PD Racer?


----------



## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Slayer said:


> What is a PD Racer?


A floating box with a sail!


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

arcb, i appreciate your input. i would suggest that maybe for someone like you that has experience calculating sailing time it is not much different than land-speed calculations. but certainly i did not come up with around 4 days to sail 30+ miles! this is why i am here asking super basic questions. to you, easy, to a landlubber like me, not so much.

and i agree that i don't want the coast guard involved, and they probably should charge me if they have to rescue me! Tarski is right and i couldn't agree more. i don't want to die, or cause trouble, i just want a challenge and to do something that seems hard and something that not everybody would want to do. i don't think there is anything wrong with that especially if i take precautions. wait for the best weather window, have a motor boat tag along in case i get into trouble. have a dry suit and emergency beacon for even more safety. etc.

thanks to you all for these great suggestions.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Tanski said:


> Knowledge!
> This is a prime example why I think the Coast Guard should charge for rescue.


Yes, and EMS should charge people for texting while driving and hospitals should charge fatasses for eating too many cheeseburgers and having heart attacks.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

_"Is this folly?"_ Yes. Without a doubt. Can it be done? Sure; if you're skilled enough, tenacious enough, crazy enough, and most importantly, lucky enough, you can do this. Why you would want to do this is beyond me, but then I don't understand most people who feel the need to do extreme-sport type things. And I too have spent considerable time exploring the Canadian wilds by canoe, kayak and sailboat.

I've never sailed your target area, but did sail Superior/North Channel for over a decade. I have sailed four of the five Great Lakes so I have some sense of the challenges you'll face. Arcb's analysis seems accurate to me.

So yes, it is possible to do this, but yes it is foolish. Go for it if you insist, but (and I don't think I've ever said this before), I'm glad to see you plan to cover the costs of any rescue. Although given your insistence on doing this cheaply, I kinda doubt you have the cash.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

T-Money, we have two different distance figures on the go here. One, part is the open water portion, and in my opinion, the risky part, and then the total distance from Traverse City to Beaver Island. My 4 and a half days is based on door to door from Traverse City to Beaver Island, the open water crossing, it might be worth breaking up into two parts. Lelanau State Park to South Fox Island (only 18 miles) and then the run to Beaver, or do the direct run straight to Beaver, depending on your weather window, you would have to make that call at the time, depending on forecast, and how your boat was holding up after the 30 mile run down Grand Traverse Bay.

I play around in small boats on the great lakes myself. Here's a video of me doing some island sailing on my WB 8, about the same size as a PDracer, and certainly a better performing sailboat than even an upsized 12' PD. I would expect to encounter similar sailing conditions in Grand Traverse Bay as what you see here in the 1000 Islands. As you can see, progress is very slow. The dinghy sailing starts at just over a minute into the video.


----------



## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

I get his lunch.


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

arcb,

yes, that route you proposed to s fox would be a much better approach. i was originally thinking that starting from leelenau state park would be the best way and then just head straight there. but as you and others have said i need to think more in terms of sailing and not like i could just drive there and be there in a half-hour! camping on that island would give me a chance to wait out any bad weather, rest, and maybe more favourable winds for the next leg to beaver.

thanks for the video also, it looks real nice up there...


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Why.... Do you think a floating brick is the choice for this adventure? Hell, A sea kayak would get you there faster!


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

What's the attraction to the PD racer style? Are you trying to make this more difficult, or do you believe it's the cheapest, fastest way to a vessel?


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Following Howard Rice on wooden boat forum. I could be wrong but think his adventures are making less experienced think they can be like him.
Southern Cross - Page 3


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't know who Howard Rice is, but I don't see any fundamental problems with the OPs concept. I think it sounds like fun, kind of risky, but fun.

At least he isn't getting his sailing plans from the BS fed to him by sailing marketeers, magazines and forums.

Figure out a boat, figure out a destination, and go sailing. Sounds right on target with how I perceive sailing.

And I don't agree folks should have to pay for SAR, all kinds of folks push their luck in all kinds of activities and have to call for help, it's part of not living in a third world backwater dump.

What's the value of a productive tax paying adult to the economy? Millions over a life time? What's the cost of a Safe Boat running out of Traverse City for 90 minutes? $100in gas? There is a reason SAR is free.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Howard is in his 70's and sailing a 12 ft boat round cape Horn,. Him and his buddy John Welsford who designed his boat are out and about promoting impossible adventures with impossibly small boats. Lectures books, plans etc. 
I just don't like the idea of the OP sailing a home made brick when a more suitable craft CAN BE Built for the same $


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Fair enough Denise030  , I was actually thinking about recommending a Welsford Navigator early on in this thread, before I realised the op wanted to use a Kleenex box 

So you would feel differently if he used a 14' Enterprise, or a Wayfarer or a Navigator?


----------



## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

And if we don't rescue the boat, I can't get his lunch.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I just can't wrap my mind around having a open boat on open water UNLESS it's small and safe water. It's amazing how quick an open boat can be swamped!


----------



## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

Please double bag the lunch in ziplocks. Leave some air in the outer one so it floats.

I like pastrami and lots of spicy.


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

hahaha, pastrami, got it!

well, howard rice, huh? i will have check out his stuff. i've never heard of him to be honest with you but sounds interesting! and i guess i was thinking of a pdracer inspired design cause they are cheap and easy to build. and quite stable. that was about the only reasons for the choice of hull! plus i don't need any thing special to tow or store it 

beyond that, it just sounded like a really fun, challenging challenge. and that's what i like to do so i thought, hey, i'll start asking some questions, start training, and learn the ropes. then we will see what happens...


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

wow, so i've been reading about harris and his trip. Below40South.com is the site. thanks for the link to the discussion forum. let's just say this is fueling my fire to do this!!! yes, i know, i know- he has waaaaay more sailing experience than me. but hey, whatever. that guy is having a real trip, makes what i want to do seem like child's play!!

anyway, thanks for the pointers and opinions everyone. i'll perhaps come back every now and then and post some pics of the build and subsequent capsizings....


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I haven't looked up your passage. Is this a coastal hop that you can bail out at will? You really need to get your head around what happens to that boat design, when the seas are just a couple of feet on the beam and the wind is howling. The seas can easily be multiples of that. If you are planning to do this is a short weather window, you may be able to avoid it. But forecasts can be wrong, so all good adventures have a solid plan B.

As for cheap, you can get a small keelboat for as little as this will cost to build.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Aside from capsizing and swamping, which I think are both very legitimate concerns, I think my biggest concern would be losing the rig or unmanageable wind conditions. Those small poorly designed displacement cat boats have a very low wind threshold before they become over powered and become unsailable. Maybe around 15-20 knots of wind, the boats will just round up into the wind and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it but get blown what ever way the wind is blowing. You can try dropping your sails and sailing with just a mast which will give you some down wind steerage, but if you miss your island, you are in serious trouble, because you will be blown into open Lake Michigan. However, if you do your training properly, you will figure this out on the first windy day you try sailing.

I had this happen to me on my WB, I tried dragging my oars to maintain steerage. Broke the blade off my first oar, broke the blade off my second oar, boat rounded up, the goose neck pulled out and I was done. I was out in the middle of the St Lawrence river with no way to steer. I had to jump in and swim my boat to shore. It sucked. But my point is not to discourage you from building your boat, just giving you some things to think about.

If you are into the small boat stuff (which I very much am, in case you hadn't picked up on that yet), here is a link to a great video about capsizing an open cruising boat on open water. This guy is one of my favorite cruisers on Youtube, but he doesn't do very many videos.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Great thread.
I flicked through a few responses and the OPs additional info posts.

We see these sort of threads quite often and I call them "Gunna Threads" ... "I'm gunna do this amazing adventure with no knowledge and you're not going to stop me, now give me all the knowledge I need".

None, repeat, none of these dudes come to fruition. After a dose of reality - viewing their death from outside the casket - financial inability - etc - theyy drift off.

One of the most important "tells" is the necessity of some tiny hand made boat - 10ft for a 1,000 miles, 22ft for circumnavigation - is the 'adventurer' is broke. No money, big ideas.

The "I can build a boat" - using stolen drawings - sounds really easy except its not.
Sailing at night without electronics sounds easy for someone with no knowledge, but its not.

Your death doesn't worry you. But nor does killing an innocent person in another boat that collides with you at midnight in you tiny tub.

Nor do you care about the grief your family will feel for you over your unrecovered dead body. Yes, that grief is extended forever when they can't find your body. The grief is extended forever, you Mom just wanting "closure" instead of accepting the obvious "you son was an idiot who killed himself and his body will never be found".
But you don't think of nothing but self indulgence to say you have achieved something no matter the cost - not to you - but the cost to others.

It's not a worthy adventure, its not a worthy dream.
But I don't care as you will never actually do it. You're just a "Gunna".



Mark


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Hmmm, Markofsealife does bring up an interesting point. I do think this is an interesting project, I don't think it would be an inexpensive project.

3 sheets of LLoyds certified marine grade 12mm ply= $750
Dry suit= $500
PLB=$250
SPOT = $200+$150 subsrcitipion.
Various glues and epoxies and sealants=$200
Custom rig and sails= $1000
Oars=$70

I think we're north of $3000. 

Last August I bought a Prindle 16 for $1200. Sure, I've put maybe $1500 in to it so far getting it race ready, but it's still cheaper than this project would likely be and even in a light wind, the Prindle could do that 56 miles in under 24 hours easily and it only weighs 350 lbs, so you trailer it behind a Smartfor2 if you had to.


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

hey guys,

to marks comments, you are right that it might not happen. in fact, i am currently not even living back in michigan but i will be in about 2 weeks and that's when i am going to start building boat #1. the plan is to be on the water, any water, as much as possible after break-up.

i tend to not be one of the "gunna" group, but i can fully understand where you are coming from on that. my friends and family know that if i decide to do something, i'm "gunna". and yes, the last thing i want is for them to feel the grief over the loss of their son. when i lived in alaska they hated it because they never knew if it was the last time they would hear from me and i would often be without contact for awhile. maybe i'm broke, maybe not. maybe i just don't have any desire to have a large boat and all of the hidden expenses that come with it. it's interesting to see how some people try to pigeon-hole others when they disagree with their position. the parts you wrote about the family, i couldn't agree more with and you are spot on there. the rest is pure speculation on your part, but like i said all too often it is the case with people having ideas and you are generally right there too, so whatever...

and you are also right that navigating in the dark in open water sounds absolutely terrifying. which really was the whole reason i decided to ask some questions in the first place.

arc, thank you for the great videos! it's always fun to see vids of people doing things i want to be doing! maybe i will post some vids of me sailing around traverse bay or to the manitou's like was suggested. that would be a great trip to start with. above all i really appreciate the suggestions and ideas (and the criticism too), so keep it coming! and i will do my best to stay in contact on this thread. maybe one of you would like to join me if i decide i need a second hand?! 

later all


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Floating cooler too.. I like cold drinks with pastrami :captain:

PD racer... Nice write up and instructions. 
Building the Puddle Duck Racer

NO marine plywood 









just so cute


----------



## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Is it folly? Well, yeah. I'm not even going to look up the dictionary definition of folly to confirm it. It's folly.

I think the downside of the proposed endeavor has been pretty well discussed. As a Lake Michigan sailor for over 40 years, I have a pretty good handle on what the downside could be if your weather window gets slammed shut. 

Never mind the downside, what the heck is the upside? Is this a stunt you would brag about? Is there personal satisfaction in putting yourself at risk just to get to Beaver Island? I've been there, and I wouldn't take any undue risks to go there again. 

Folly, yes. Do I get it? No.


----------



## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

The thing that makes it folly is that there are established, wise courses to accomplish all your goals, cheaper and faster than your plans, while minimizing risk to the standard, single life and fortune, rather than risking what belongs to others.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I have no problem with people doing foolish things. As long as the ones who are mostly harmed are the ones making the choices, then I say _fill your boots._ We should all have the right to do stupid things as long as we're mostly only risking (and harming) ourselves. And on the scale of foolish things, this still ranks fairly low (just look at some of the idiots on Youtube).

(BTW, I say "mostly" b/c it is impossible to have zero harm fall on others.)

I do think there is an argument to be made about asking overt daredevils (for lack of a better term) to not put the burden of their likely failure on others; and that includes public services like SAR. But I recognize this is a potential _Pandora's Box_ or slippery slope that could quickly lead exactly to the opposite public policy place that I support (the right to do foolish things). There are some who would argue that sailing the Seven Seas (or the Five Great Lakes) in a smallish sailboat is crazy.

Although, when you think about it, we already place limits on the right to be foolish. Most jurisdictions mandate that drivers buy vehicle insurance, that they wear seatbelt and helmets, that they drive within speed limits, etc.. Most countries force people to not do certain things so as to avoid dumping the costs of foolish behaviour on the backs of rest of society.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm actually not against the OP's dream .. I just don't like the boat (cement trough) he picked. IF.. that's if. I were doing mini expectditions I'd build something like this although highly unlikely as I once had a much larger boat that seemed "small" after nearly 10 years.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

To me the basic proposal to build a small simple boat, learn to sail it well, and then go camp cruising for four or five days does not seem unreasonable. That sounds like a reasonably achievable goal for someone with the physical makeup, and conditioning to do. 

But if I wanted to succeed in this goal I would be methodical about developing an plan of attack to gather the critical information that will be required. I would then research the skills needed to build and sail a small boat. It's only then that you might turn to the process of picking out the right boat for that purpose.

In terms of the right boat for this type of thing, the puddle duck would be a pretty poor choice. If I were considering building a small easy to build boat, I would probably build something like one of Phil Bolger designs. I would probably build a small catboat like the PB Mouset, Bobcat or as a last resort the Cynthia J. At least that way after I accomplished my goal, I would end up with a nice little boat. 

If I were even more ambitious about the boat building phase of my plan, I would probably build one of Charlie Wittholz designed catboat. 

But once the boat was built I would sail the living daylights out of it until I felt completely comfortable with handling the boat in a range of weather and a better sense of how that boat behaves. And then make the passage when the weather window allows.


----------



## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

The feat is doable in a small boat but the question is why? I am sure everyone remembers that this the same area that the Kiwi 35 capsized in a couple of years ago and 2 people died. I have sailed through this area 10 times in the last 15 years. We've sat with no movement twice for 2 days in the 11 trips and that was on a 42' cruiser racer. We've also seen storms including the one the aforementioned Wing Nuts capsized in. That storm wasn't in the forecast that morning when we were 70 miles away and by 11:00 at night it hit with 70knot gusts, lightning, and 6-8 foot confused seas. I hate to think what would happen if you were in an open boat. By the way, if you capsized in a storm like that you won't survive that long in the 50-55 degree feet water. The Coast Guard would also have a hard time finding you in those conditions.

It would be doable if: you have a bulletproof forecast, your boat is well built, you have plenty of experience with the boat, and you have some luck.

The prevailing winds are west/southwest in the summertime in this area. You are talking about a a boat that won't point so on your trip you are going to have to sail a lot longer than 56 miles of open water. My guess that a 2knot VMG would be optimistic. You would probably be sailing at night which means you need the proper lights. Since this is a high traffic area be aware of the ferry, sailboats and brain dead cabin cruisers with their autopilots set for the Manitou passage.

On the other hand you could probably a well equipped Catalina 22 for $3,000 and make this trip easily with some planning and experience.


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

hey good morning all,

ok, i know you are all providing your opinions based on experience and sound wisdom. i get it that it's a bad idea and i am hearing you. i am also looking at other, more stable boat designs after having read about the harris boat and watching a few of their short videos. this summer i will sail a pd and test my limits, learn, and just have fun. next winter start on a more ambitious boat when hopefully i have a bit more building experience and more knowledge on sailplans.

please rest assured that i am not about to just go and do this without thought or preparation. and at this stage i am scared enough that i would want to have a motor boat follow along in case i get into trouble. but i really want to thank you for your input. as i have made plainly clear i have such little sailing experience as to not really know what this would entail. when looking on the map it seems very doable, even in such a craft. however, after a couple days of this i realise that my original plan may be a bit much.

like i said, i will keep posting here on how my first boat comes together, and share some pics of me swimming along next to it when i capsize! thank you all for your input, and maybe i will see some of you around traverse over the next couple of years. happy trails!


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

t-money said:


> ...please rest assured that i am not about to just go and do this without thought or preparation. and at this stage i am scared enough that i would want to have a motor boat follow along in case i get into trouble. but i really want to thank you for your input. as i have made plainly clear i have such little sailing experience as to not really know what this would entail. when looking on the map it seems very doable, even in such a craft. however, after a couple days of this i realise that my original plan may be a bit much.


You're a wise man (woman?). I've no doubt you'll figure it out, and whether you undertake this adventure, or a thousand others, there is no lack of ways to explore this little planet called Earth.

Fair winds :2 boat:


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Here's another one of my favourite Youtube Cruisers. I don't know if it's his goal or not, but he does a good job of flipping off the excesses and consumerism that defines so much of modern cruising.

In the last video, he's in an 8 foot boat and sails quite confidently on the Adriatic sea, however, his little boat is well built and well equipped.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

t-money said:


> I am also looking at other, more stable boat designs after having read about the harris boat and watching a few of their short videos. this summer i will sail a pd and test my limits, learn, and just have fun. next winter start on a more ambitious boat when hopefully i have a bit more building experience and more knowledge on sailplans.


I think that this sounds like a good plan of attack. One suggestion that I would make is that the PuddleDucks do not sail all that well. From a design standpoint, they are very heavily compromised towards being easy to build vs being good sailboats.

If your intent is to construct an 'instant boat' as a trainer, I would strongly recommend that you consider building a Bolger Teal. I have sailed one of these and they sail quite well given their simplicity of build. An amateur builder should be able to build one for a similar cost and in a similar time to a Puddle Duck, but the Teal would be a much nicer boat to own and learn on.

You can find the drawings and discussion of the build process in one of Bolger's books (I think that Teal is in the book, "The Folding Schooner and other adventures in Boat Design".

Having build a few boats in my day, my best advice to anyone contemplating building a boat of any kind is that building any boat costs time and money. Pick the absolute best design that you can find for your budget and skill level, and the effort will be a lot more worth while. There is nothing worse than building a mediocre design when a better design was readily available.

Good Luck,
Jeff


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

t-money said:


> stable boat designs


This... where you don't understand about boats for sailing and boats for power. good luck. don't build a brick!


----------



## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

t-money....I love you man. I know nothing about rock climbing, but you've inspired me to join a rock climbing forum and tell them about my plan to climb Half Dome with clothesline and zip ties. Oh, the fun I will have.


----------



## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

If you use enough clothesline, you won't need zipties. Or so I've heard.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Mmmmm, me on Manaslu, over 16000 feet with absolutely no specialised mountaineering gear. Put one foot in front of the other.


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

haha,

well siamese i am glad i gave you a good laugh! and if that is the metaphor, then, well, climb on. and what's wrong with asking?! anyway, have with with half-dome...


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Siamese said:


> t-money....I love you man. I know nothing about rock climbing, but you've inspired me to join a rock climbing forum and tell them about my plan to climb Half Dome with clothesline and zip ties. Oh, the fun I will have.


While it is an amusing comment and I somewhat understand the basis of the comment, I don't think its quite fair. The reason that I say that is that original question was asking whether the planned trip was feasible as a goal from someone who had not yet begun to develop the skills and knowledge base to actually make the trip. T-Money threw out the name of only type of sailboat he was exposed to that he thought that he could build cheaply and easily.

Most of the advise he received was responsible which in short form boiled down to:
1. Take the time to learn to sail and read the weather.
2. You probably want a better boat than the Puddle Duck to learn on and for the trip
3. There are used boats with better designs that can be bought for around what a PD will cost to build and be easier to sell when he was done with them
4. This is a potentially dangerous body of water
5. The trip will take longer than he thought
6. If the goal includes building a boat, as well as learning to sail and sailing the boat from Traverse City to Beaver Island, then at least take time to pick out the best design that he can afford to build and that he is capable of building.

Routinely there are folks who come on Sailnet who want to buy their first boat, learn to sail and then sail that boat around the world. Often when exposed to the daunting reality of their goals, these people disappear from the site. Or in other cases, they get defensive as people try to explain the process to them.

The difference here is that the goal is comparatively modest, the OP seems to be listening to what is being advised and at least considering the points raised, and appears to be accepting that this will require a bigger process than he had originally seemed to grasp.

So to me, following your analogy, it would be like me going on the climbing site with the clothes line and snap ties analogy. And having the experienced climbers tell me that I need to go into physical training, get better gear, and learn to use it. They might also suggest that I start with more modest goals and that there is a chance I will never reach my original goals, but if I do it right, I will potentially end up in better physical shape, might enjoy the process of becoming a climber and may safely accomplish what I am capable of in climbing.

Given that advise it would be up to me how I used it. I can get insulted, ignore the advice, and stubbornly try to do this my own ignorant way. I could decide that this is too hard or expensive and not worth it. Or I can join a climbing gym, go into training, read up on technique, maybe get to know some experienced climbers to get some coaching, and then get as close to my goals as possible within my own limitations.

At this point, we do not know what t-money will do, but I tip my hat to him that at least he did not start out by going down to Home Depot, buying some door skins or roof sheathing to build a PD, before asking experienced sailors about the viability of the idea.

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I haven't been to Beaver Island, but I did camp cruise on Georgian Bay in a 17' foot open Fireball starting at age 17. 

I had no electronics, I had no specialised safety gear, all I had was an open boat, a babe and a box of wine. Georgian Bay isn't very different than where the OP is talking about. What he's proposing isn't impossible and he doesn't need to be wealthy to do it.

My issue with a PD racer, isn't really its size, or its cost, it's the fact that I don't think it would sail very well. Also, I would be concerned about dismasting and the possibility of the boat breaking.

I think there are small open boats that could work pretty well for a <30 mile lake crossing in August. I wouldn't hesitate do it in my Prindle, or my old Fireball. A Wayfarer, an Albacore, a Laser 2 might work okay. 

I've been in the mountains, where I encountered people who could not have been there if they couldn't pay other men to carry there gear for them, donkeys to carry there food and water. I've also met people, who toss there pack on their back and are good for the next 15 days.

I think that comparison exists in the yachting world too. Some people need more help and more stuff than other people.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Siamese said:


> So, if your doorbell rings, and you open your front door, and there's a flaming brown bag on the porch, do you run over and stomp it out?


I would probably grab a shovel and return said flaming brown bag to the porch of its sender since it obviously was delivered to me in error.

And if said sender indicated that the intent was to deliver it to me, I would inquire as to what warranted that generous deed.

And perhaps with some constructive discussion, we might avoid exchanging such emoluments in the future.

Jeff


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I just look at Gunna threads as clickbait.


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

t-money said:


> wow...ok, i'm very puzzled. how is it that a boat like that can be so cheap? even with the 300 title fee, that seems like some sort of a scam or something. what am i missing?





Sanduskysailor said:


> On the other hand you could probably a well equipped Catalina 22 for $3,000 and make this trip easily with some planning and experience.


Used boats are dirt****ing cheap. I got my Catalina 22 for $2300. It came with a good trailer, an outboard, an electric outboard, two group 27 batteries, six sails, a set of tools, and various miscellaneous boat bits. And I still probably overpaid.

A Catalina 22 could make the trip easily.

I understand the appeal to do it in a boat you made, but it would have to be for pride of workmanship rather than economics. A used boat is going to be cheaper than a homebuilt. In fact, you'll probably end up buying an old boat as a donor anyway for all the various lines and cleats and spars and such.

So the thing to do might be to buy a small used boat. Use it to learn how to sail. If you still want to do this plan you now have a donor boat to steal parts from, and if you lose interest in the plan, well, at least you learned how to sail.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Jeff_H said:


> If I were considering building a small easy to build boat, I would probably build something like one of Phil Bolger designs. I would probably build a small catboat like the PB Mouset, Bobcat or as a last resort the Cynthia J.
> 
> If I were even more ambitious about the boat building phase of my plan, I would probably build one of Charlie Wittholz designed catboat.


Now the OP has gone and got me thinking about building my next boat instead of buying one. I've been searching for a trailer sailor but can't find anything that speaks to me.

I looked at Phil Bolgers website- it's pretty overwhelming, lots of boats.

Is there something easy to build, ideally in kit format, plywood, maybe in the 20-22 foot range, cat rig would be nice. Something I could squeeze 4 berths into and a plumbed marine head and tow behind a V-6 Santa Fe (under 2500 lbs I guess)?

I have about a 400 sq foot garage I can easily press into service as a wood working shop.


----------



## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

The problem isn't square footage, the problem with a keelboat in a garage is height. Height of the garage door, if nothing else.

I imagine there's a lot of cats that would work, but I don't care for dagger boards. Keels that move are a compromise I, personally, wouldn't make.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Arcb said:


> Now the OP has gone and got me thinking about building my next boat instead of buying one. I've been searching for a trailer sailor but can't find anything that speaks to me.
> 
> I looked at Phil Bolgers website- it's pretty overwhelming, lots of boats.
> 
> ...


I have often thought about doing this myself. The reality is that you can buy a nice used boat for way less than you can build something, even if what you build is simple and easy to build. Bolger was tremendously prolific. I admire his tremendous creativity, but as I have looked at his catalog of designs over the years, and have sailed a few of his designs, I have concluded that some are ingeniously clever and sail well (Dovekie and Teal for example) but others designs are very bizarre and not especially good boats.

If I wanted to build a small pocket cruiser I would probably try to build a plywood boat which was a bit more main-steam than Bolger's designs since they would sail better and there would be a market to sell it when I was done.

I personally would probably want to build something like Dudley Dix's Didi 23 or if I wanted to build something more traditional, I would try to track down the drawings for one of Charlie Wittholz's catboats. When I worked for Charlie, he had me draft a minor revision to a Cape Cod style catboat which was roughly 20-23 feet that was a real charmer. If I remember right that design had several rig options, and I would probably build the marconi rig version but with a lot of roach in the mainsail, if not a square head main.

Jeff


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I like to dream about building boats, so I understand the original poster's motivation. However my time is best spent building poorly made bookshelves and using the time saved to go sailing.

Has anyone ever sailed any of the Bateau boats? I'll never build it, but this one looks interesting:
Vagabond 23*(VG23) - Study Plans

But to quote from that site:


> It is possible to save a lot on spars and sails with second hand equipment and the boat could be build for as little as $6,000.00.
> 
> The average construction time for a complete boat is 500 hours, less if you keep the finish very simple.


I'm sure those figures are hopelessly optimistic, I bet it'd be at least $12,000 and 1000 hours.

So for the cost of a new Kia and EVERY WEEKEND and a lot of nights for an entire year, you'll end up with an obviously homemade looking boat that may or may not sail well and will have limited resale value.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Didi 23 is a cool looking boat! Thanks for the tip. I have also been checking out the Core Sound 20 kit.

My motivation is not financial. I'm selling a reasonably nice 35 footer, so my budget will be whatever I get for her, it will be enough to cover either construction of a new 20-22 footer or purchase of a used glass one for sure.

My issue, is, I have always lived in a Coastal area and moved frequently (I was career navigation officer in the CG). In 2015, I made a career change and put down solid routes in an inland town. For the last two years, I've been trying to make my Fantasia 35 work, but she is just way too much boat for my area. Waaaay too much boat. The problem is, I have a good non tangible connection to the boat, she was my home, when my son was born, she was his first home- he came home to the boat, not some apartment on the dirt.

Now that I am looking to replace her, I have looked at literally dozens of small glass boats and, so far, not one has inspired me. I am thinking maybe, if I build the boat, I am likely to appreciate her more, even if she is less capable and more expensive then a 35 year old classic plastic. The problem is, I don't have much boat building experience- so it has to be easy, that's why I'm thinking ply.

I like the CNC kits because I think they would drastically reduce my time and stress. 

What I'd really like is to build a catamaran like, a Woods Wizard or Janus, but I'm afraid 2 hulls will be double to trouble, plus no CNC kits available. 

Plus, like Minnesail said, it's so much work if the boat turns out to be a total piece of junk, although I think their might be luck reselling a catamaran, just because it's so hard to get a small used trailerable cruising catamaran.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Check out the mellonseed! 
The Remarkable Melonseed Skiff


----------



## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

Could be fun. Lots of ways this can go horribly sideways.

Maybe buy solid skiff and proof the concept without all the variables that come with a boat you built.


----------



## t-money (Feb 20, 2017)

well, sorry to revive this dead horse...but a little preview of the first boat. starting the sails this week or next, hope to be in the water (or floating on top of it) in a couple weeks after that...

this one won't be going 30 miles in open water...but maybe version 2!

later all...

edit: sorry the pic is sideways...i hope the finished boat turns out better


----------



## Towguy (May 8, 2016)

I wouldnt say you are reviving this thread if you are updateing on the original subject,it's intresting to see how things evolve from the original idea and how they work out for you,using all the advice thrown out there....looks like progress anyway......Ralph. It does look a little boxy...?


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

If you build two of them you could have a Jacuzzi and a garden planter


----------

