# Not drinkng RO. How to fix that?



## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

I'm reading up on the ill effects of drinking RO for extended periods of time (3mo+). We need the minerals that are being filtered out as well as the salt.
I've been trying to find info on how to easily put back in minerals into RO for long term consumption. 
What do you all do? I heard there were filters, but Google hasn't turned up any or I'm using the wrong key words. All I've found is remineralizing water for making beer.
Anyone have a good reading website on this topic?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Don't worry about it. RO water is not distilled, or even deionized, water. Even the best watermakers will produce water with at least the same amount of mineral content as your city tap water. Your TDS meter will show you this. The minerals will be slightly different, such as a bit increased boron content in RO and generally higher sulphate content in tap, but otherwise identical physiologically. 

Even if you have a super RO system that does remove all the minerals, there still isn't any health issue. You will get all the minerals you need from your food, and more salt than you ever need. A large number of people in the world drink predominantly mineral-free rainwater.

I'm curious what/where you are reading about ill effects. We live pretty much 12 months of the year for the past 8 years on RO and rain water and have experienced no ill effects.

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes, you are right, RO water takes everything out.

Its like stopping your baby eating dirt. The kid needs dirt to build up gut bacteria.

You need minerals found in natural water because they are not found in RO water. Its the same with those city trendy fitness twits running around with their bottle of pure H2O. It will kill them. Not because its pure but what it doesn't have in it: the minerals you have evolved to extract from drinking water.

The pharmacy should have electrolyte powder to add.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

You get most of your minerals from food, not water. When I get crappy tasting water while on the boat, I spike it with Gatorade. Rum works quite well too.


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Interesting question about the potential risks and benefits of RO water......I knew some folks a few years ago that had a watermaker and remember they talked about adding an electrolyte pack (or something like that) to their water tanks after they ran their watermaker.

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutrientschap12.pdf?ua=1

Dr. Jacqueline Gerhart: There's good and bad to using reverse osmosis water systems | UW Health | Madison, WI


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes, you are right, RO water takes everything out.
> 
> Its like stopping your baby eating dirt. The kid needs dirt to build up gut bacteria.
> 
> ...


Sorry, you are completely wrong here.

As a kid I got my minerals from lead paint chips and look how I turned out. :ship-captain:


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Reverse Osmosis is not an 'absolute' removal system ... its only a _statistical reduction_ mechanism. Therefore, RO generated water doesnt have ALL the minerals, etc. removed.

Drinking water from most municipal supplies will have a total dissolved solids (TDS) at about less than ~250-300 ppm TDS as a maximum, due to standard old-fashioned chemical 'de-mineralizing' pre-treatment techniques; typical RO output will have that level to about ~70-100 ppm (TDS).

Your digestive tract should extract what minerals you need from your food. An occasional vitamin & mineral supplement probably 'won't hurt', if for some reason you're concerned.

Many areas of the USA since the last 20 years, now use a last stage ~RO treatment for the removal of chlorine resistant various protozoa & bacteria (& some viral species) and sometimes for 'distasteful' large metal species .... for health and safety purposes of large scale water distribution systems where that water is taken from 'surface' (lake, river, etc.) water sources. 
So far, there has been no apparent adverse health effects noted by CDC, etc. 
If your have diagnosed Osteoporosis / Osteopenia, etc., check with your practitioner.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

OK.
So rainwater is bad.

Are eggs still bad for you..or now OK?
Things change....

If you BMI is X and your gender and height are X...then it's all clear...without question.....

New is the new New


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

In life, beware Absolutes.

Unless it comes bottled from Sweden.....


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

I think a definition of RO water is needed here. I put an RO system in a laboratory growth chamber to provide water for a humidification system. The output from the RO system we installed is 0 ppm. If it gets above 5 ppm I have to change the filters and backflush the diaphragm. Maybe drinking water RO systems are not so tight but agreeing on a common definition would help clear the air in these discussions which often devolve into a pissing match when the participants are arguing apples and oranges.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

We've been on RO water for around 5 years and my wife I don't feel at all unhealthy. As a matter of fact, I had a lot more problems from shore water before I built our watermaker. It just can't be all that good for you drinking chlorine every day, and some places there's enough you can taste it.
If you are at all worried (and just for general good health) you might consider a daily multivitamin w/minerals anyway. A few cents a day beats any machine you can find that would remineralize your RO water.
On the other hand, (barring the Communist plot scenarios) shore water from outside the USA and RO water is not fluoridated. If one is raising a child aboard, as I did, then Fluoride tablets are in order.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

RobGallagher said:


> Sorry, you are completely wrong here.


Of course I am wrong: Its the internet!
But why, pray tell?


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

Mark: If you scroll clear to the bottom of Rob's post it appears that he was just having some fun.....


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## twoshoes (Aug 19, 2010)

I was in the water business for 10 years working for a commercial water purification company. RO water is considered purified and is fine to drink, the minerals that get taken out are not necessary, nor needed. As others have pointed out you still get those minerals from everything else you consume. Bottled water companies claim they add the minerals for taste, but I've personally never had a problem with the taste of RO water.

Ultra-pure water on the other hand, like a straight DI (mixed-bed or Cation/Anion separate beds) that are post sediment and carbon filters, or DI polish that is post-RO should not be drunk. It will actually pull minerals out of your body. Ultra-pure water is extremely aggressive to the point it will actually eat through copper/iron pipe and brass fittings, etc. Even DI water below one meg-ohm resistivity and thus no longer usable for medical or pharmaceutical applications still has a much higher quality than the best RO can produce, with the exception of double-pass systems. 

Where the problem does come in with using an RO is that storage tanks and associated plumbing post-membrane is very susceptible to bacteria growth due to the lack of chlorine normally found in tap water (or salt in seawater I'm guessing in marine applications). I don't know what the standard is for drinking water but in the applications I worked with if you didn't have a UV Sterilizer, a monthly chemical disinfection at a minimum was required to kill harmful bacteria.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

RichH said:


> typical RO output will have that level to about ~70-100 ppm (TDS).


That may be true for commercial systems, but I doubt there are boat systems out there regularly producing that low. I lost count of the number of times I have had people tell me their RO system produces 30-50ppm, only to show them that their meter is x10.

The TDS level is calculable from the flow rate, pressure and membrane length. Typical membranes and flow rates used in boat RO systems will provide TDS ranges of 150-350 when new.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> I think a definition of RO water is needed here. I put an RO system in a laboratory growth chamber to provide water for a humidification system. The output from the RO system we installed is 0 ppm. If it gets above 5 ppm I have to change the filters and backflush the diaphragm. Maybe drinking water RO systems are not so tight but agreeing on a common definition would help clear the air in these discussions which often devolve into a pissing match when the participants are arguing apples and oranges.


You just compared an apple with an orange. Those laboratory systems consist of both RO and ion exchange membranes, and work from fresh water. Many (most?) of them are just ion exchange systems and don't use RO at all. The ion exchange is what removed the impurities down to 0ppm, not the RO.

Mark


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## Bernoulli (Sep 29, 2013)

Wait, stop the music! We have RO systems to remove the minerals from seawater, because that much mineral content will kill you. You can't live on seawater, you will die. That's why we have RO systems. And now we're worrying about not having enough minerals? Sure, some trace minerals might be required, but who knows if those happened to be present in you onshore water supply? Take a vitamin I guess.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

We evolved drinking pretty dirty 'fresh' water with lots of gazelle poop and elephant piddle as well as plenty of leached minerals.
I don't know which we don't get in food or what ro water removes, but the more natural we eat and drink (without going crazy Paeleo) the better for us.

Babies need to chew dirt, suck dirty fingers and be revoltingly dirty to build up their imune system. Sanitised Western Society has destroyed kids ability to fend off grievous attacks from Peanuts, they get asthma from breathing and their life expectancy is less than yours.

Drinking water needs more crap in it!


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Drinking water needs more crap in it!


Quinine, CO2, sugar, lime and gin does the trick for us. So does rum and a shot of key lime juice. Scotch works well for others.

Pretty much everyone agrees that adding some hops and barley and letting it sit for a bit improves it greatly.

Mark


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

colemj said:


> That may be true for commercial systems, but I doubt there are boat systems out there regularly producing that low. I lost count of the number of times I have had people tell me their RO system produces 30-50ppm, only to show them that their meter is x10.
> 
> The TDS level is calculable from the flow rate, pressure and membrane length. Typical membranes and flow rates used in boat RO systems will provide TDS ranges of 150-350 when new.
> 
> Mark


Sorry, but a too-salty 'taste' begins at ~250-300 ppm using 'desalinization' membranes @ 100> mwco (Daltons). It can easily and rapidly occur if the transmembrane pressure exceeds 800-1000 psid; but more commonly, if the membrane has 'production errors'. 
FWIW - if the actual gage pressure is not corrected/re-calculated for the apparent _velocity of the fluid_, its quite easy to make 'pressure' mistakes.

Typical RO membrane porosity is from 1-10Å = 0,01-1nM = 0,001-0,001µM = 10-100 molecular weight cut off (mwco) or 'Daltons'. The user has to specify the approx. mwco desired.

*Desalination* membranes typically are 'somewhere' in the lower side of the nano-filtration range, over-lapping well beyond+ the lower ranges of nano-filtration.... i.e.. 'very loose' at >~200-250 mwco (Daltons) using lesser transmembrane/osmotic pressure and higher 'reject rate' (retentate versus permeate) + higher surface area ... AND are well less than ~90% retention efficiency at that 'rating'. All these 'numbers' are at a broad statistical rangeabilty ... the actual size range Å/nM/µM is often quite variable due to membrane formation/production methods. The membranes used for desalination via RO are statistically 'sloppy' vs. mwco, etc. retention.

For the laboratory application, as previously listed by another poster, his water 'supply' system is probably already well treated (demineralized, 'filtered' etc. to the low end of micro-filtration ~0,005µM or on the higher size range of the nano-filtration range @ ~0,005µM etc.) ... and quite probably of very LOW 'resistivity' (meg-Ω); thus, is able to 'trim' to an acceptable and lesser mwco (daltons) level with more highly effective _hollow fiber_, etc. membranes in a 'dead end' (not tangential flow) configuration, and still get a 1-2Log reduction of his 'target' molecular species/size versus his low supply (~60-80 psig) pressure 'feed' water. He can also sometimes use a repeat of the previous µM/nM filtration retention and sometimes simply get a small additional statistical reduction of the 'target' species.

FWIW - with a 'well selected' high quality membrane, my onboard RO will typically (after precisely controlled 'start-up' ... so I dont break/rupture the membrane) will quickly stabilize output at 50-70ppm TDS.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

capta said:


> We've been on RO water for around 5 years and my wife I don't feel at all unhealthy. As a matter of fact, I had a lot more problems from shore water before I built our watermaker. It just can't be all that good for you drinking chlorine every day, and some places there's enough you can taste it.
> If you are at all worried (and just for general good health) you might consider a daily multivitamin w/minerals anyway. A few cents a day beats any machine you can find that would remineralize your RO water.
> On the other hand, (barring the Communist plot scenarios) shore water from outside the USA and RO water is not fluoridated. If one is raising a child aboard, as I did, then Fluoride tablets are in order.


Older birds, especially those who have had chemotherapy, etc. etc. etc., should probably not guess and get a baseline 'dexi-Scan' to prove that they can safely or unquestionably use RO, etc.

Fluorinated toothpaste works well, too.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Dow lists their 2.5x25" and 40" membranes at 4% and 8% recovery respectively and 800psi as having 99.4% salt rejection. Using a typical average seawater TDS of 33,000ppm, this puts the resulting product water TDS at 198ppm. This is average for a new membrane. Put two of them in series, as is typical for many units, and this TDS number only gets higher.

Attached is a table from Dow using ROSA calculations showing what performance can be expected. ROSA uses best scenario conditions and is conservative - pretty much all boat units operate outside of the conditions ROSA uses.

RO output using these membranes in a typical boat unit gets nowhere near as low as 70-100ppm.

BTW, all water maker companies list their units as providing <500ppm, so anything up to this is considered normal operation.

Mark


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

If the user follows the 'ratings' and expected output of any membrane supplier and that 'target isn't met', or decays over time, the easiest solution is the reduce transmembrane pressure (suffering lower permeate output) to get the desired TDS. 

Desalination membranes are sometimes 'sloppy'; can be especially so, if system start-up is 'sloppy'.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I looked up some typical (including doing some testing) and drinking water standards a few years ago for an article.









(Links to the WHO papers are here. Anyone who is actually interested will read them.)
Sail Delmarva: RO Water--What Are We Missing

WHO found some problems where large populations were one RO water, and curiously, Ca and Mg in the food were not enough.

But land-based RO and boat RO are not the same thing, as many posters have pointed out. If you swim in the ocean you probably swallow some. Diet matters.

I found the science interesting, but I think it is a non-concern for sailors. It is a good reason not to waste money buying distilled or DI water. Interesting that it turns out that healthy mineral water was, after all!


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

My point was that the manufacturer of the membrane does not think that 70-100ppm is normal range for their product. 

Yes, to get those values, one could operate at much reduced capacity and more rejection than the manufacturer recommends as normal operating procedures - but why?

250-350ppm is perfectly normal and perfectly healthy. The WHO lists permit-able TDS at 1,000ppm, which is frankly too high for my tastes, but apparently still healthy enough. The watermaker manufacturers list 500ppm as their normal operating limit.

So to come back around in this thread, RO water is not missing important minerals, has about the same levels as most tap waters, boat RO systems typically produce 150-350ppm water, and anything less than 500ppm on one's watermaker output is normal.

Mark


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

pdqaltair said:


> I looked up some typical (including doing some testing) and drinking water standards a few years ago for an article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good post. 
Many 'water bottlers' after RO treatment, simply add calcium, magnesium, etc. to the final product ... for 'taste'.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)




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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

Thanks all for the civilized discussions. Sounds like not much to worry about and if I'm concerned, take a mineralized vitamin with Magnesium and Calcium and have a great day.
Very good reading, thanks.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

whatever your drinking water habits, if you begin to experience leg and intestinal cramps, be licking a bit of salt from your palm as you head out for some suero, aka electrolite or pedialite---potato chips(not light) and other salt sources are just a sgood. 
yeah your md said no salt--but brain and guts need nacl. guts need chlorides and brain needs sodium. heart needs potassium. 
eat wholesome real foods and do not follow trendy bs and survive


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

If you are experiencing muscle and intestinal cramping (due to smooth muscle, not parasite), it is almost always potassium you are missing, not sodium. The important and majority electrolyte in Pedialite, Gatorade, etc is potassium. A banana will be better than licking your hands or eating chips.

Mark


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

colemj said:


> If you are experiencing muscle and intestinal cramping (due to smooth muscle, not parasite), it is almost always potassium you are missing, not sodium. The important and majority electrolyte in Pedialite, Gatorade, etc is potassium. A banana will be better than licking your hands or eating chips.
> 
> Mark


sorry., as you have seemingly never treated tropical dehydration or severe dehydration, you would not know that nacl is the treatment of first choice via ems. THEN find a reasonable source of potassium--NOT bananas which only contain 10 international units to 1500 iu in dried fruits.. 
the leg cramps are sodium deficiency., the gut cramps are chloride deficiency. FACT.

how soon they forget i have been emergency and icu and other critical areas R N for over 30 years and know my stuff. ask any race car driver 1977-1991.h ah aha ha ha that medicine still works. 
electrolite solution is easy to swallow. but do the sodium chloride first so that you donot befoul the taxi cab interior. they charge more for that. h aha ha ha ha ask me how i know.

and that misinformation about bananas and not taking nacl will end you up into an emergency room from hell EVERY time. .
i am still treating gringos who refuse to listen until way tooo late.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The Mayo clinic disagrees with you, although they don't list their experience in the field.

The way a muscle works is sodium contracts it, while potassium relaxes it. Calcium and magnesium are involved in both ends. Consider that executions are done using potassium injections because potassium relaxes all of the body's muscles to the point of no longer being able to breathe. If sodium were used, death would be caused by severe cramping to the point of organ damage.

Severe dehydration (it doesn't matter if it is tropical) is serious and requires much more than just a bit of salt, and more than added potassium. In fact, your advice to consume sodium is dangerous for severe dehydration. Sodium will worsen dehydration and cause increased loss of potassium.

In your original post, you were not discussing severe dehydration, you were discussing a bit of cramping. In this case, potassium is going to be of more help than sodium, and licking ones hand or eating a few chips isn't going to be much help. But really, all one needs in this case is to rehydrate.

Now you have positioned the discussion to the extreme end of severe dehydration, which makes your recommendation to lick one's hand or eat a few chips even more silly.

The banana comment wasn't serious - it was in comparison to your comment to lick your hand. I agree that bananas are not high in potassium. Surely you agree that one's hand is not high in sodium?. Using IU units for a mineral like potassium is unusual and cumbersome, and it is almost impossible to quantify what 10 IU means for potassium, but one banana has ~10% of daily potassium requirements. I don't know the exterior sodium content of a hand.

Mark


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

mayo clinic disagrees with about everyone.
i treat IN THE FIELD. 
my proscribed treatment gets you to hospital ALIVE.
after then is your own trouble. wanna live--i treat, you live. 
you keep forgetting i have done this for over 30 years. actually over 40 yrs counting my years since disability as i treat tourists so they donot die on my lap or in my food. i also help crew of friends of mine survive their dehydration. 
what works works.
nacl for the muscle cramps of dehydration works. cl for guts and na for brain and muscles. potassium after sodium is initiated. per protocol in emergency rooms and ems rides. 

quote mayo all you want--have fun with it--i work in reality and function. we used this tried and true method since 1976, with 100 percent success, sporty car racing events--i was worker, voluntary in medical and flags and pregrid and grid crew--- we had a lot of this bs from folks not drinking.
you wanna argue?? go for it--i KNOW what WORKS and i administer what WORKS not theory


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I think there is enough information here for people to do some further basic research and make informed decisions. 

The people I tend to listen to are those that present reasoning and facts, and do not just rely on spouting on about their "qualifications", even if I could verify them. These people also communicate their reasoning effectively and do not intentionally, nor unintentionally, murder syntax, grammar, spelling and punctuation. Even the ones for whom English is not their primary language try hard at this.

And yes, I will definitely, and always, take Mayo Clinic advice before that from a random person on the internet.

Mark


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

Beware anything that contains some form of "...we've been doing X for Y amount of time..."

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

Unless you're testing a "hypothesis" (note the quotes) based on sheer luck, there is nothing to say that your experience "in the field" (or whatever) will be the same as "insert anecdote here".

Real science is real science.

Everything else isn't.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I knew there would be some entertainment on this thread

BTW - thousands and thousands of navy sailors drink distilled water while underway and distilled is much purer than sailboat RO water. They solve all health related issues from this by drinking lots of alcohol once they get ashore.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

The Mayo Clinic probably also believed that eating eggs was bad for your health...... Be careful of following lemmings.


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