# Tipping?



## labatt

We're heading for a crewed charter in a couple of days in Maine. We'll have a captain/owner on board. The charter broker said that a 15% gratuity is standard for a good charter. Since we're talking thousands of dollars for the charter fee, we're talking hundreds of dollars for a gratuity. Is this a standard practice for a crewed charter? When the crew is the owner of the boat? Thanks!


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## chrondi

*Crewed charter tipping*

Tipping the boat owners? It sounds strange - very strange indeed!


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## sailingdog

Yeah, right... they're full of it...


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## camaraderie

No...that is right...tips are standard for captain and crew on a charter no matter who owns the boat. Tips are generally not calculated on a 15% basis in my experience however. $100-150 bucks each is pretty standard for a week on a sail charter in a 40-60'boat. When you take a cruise ship..you tip. When you go on a fishing charter ..you tip. Same for sail charters with captains. You must be renting SOME boat to have "thousands and thousands of $'s" for 2 days! 
But...as with all tipping...you should base YOUR amount on the service YOU receive rather than some arbitrary amount.


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## TSOJOURNER

*Tipping, the great mystery ?*

It seems that tipping is always a problem with yacht charters. There those people who maintain that an owner/Captain should not be tipped,'after all he owns the yacht and the charter fee goes in his pocket'!
There are those who over tip....yes that happens.. and where it's nice to have happen, it's also embrassing too !!

For the first group of guests, I have to say this.. In most cases they are comfortable tipping a 'Rent a Captain' a few bucks for driving them around, but when it comes to tipping a professional owner/captain there hands get stuck in there pockets. Perhaps it's the fact that the owner has this large yacht that they would also like to own, or perhaps its an overall state of confusion... ... what ever the reason, tip the owner if he has meet your expectations of showing you a good time. Just like the 'rent a captian' the owner/captain also lives off tips too!!

So how much ?
15% tip of the charter fee is extremely nice, but way over board. If you had the best time in the world, the service was just incredible, the wind was perfect and the food was to die for then perhaps 10% would be justified. But that would be for the whole boat and given to the captain for distrubution around to the crew.

A much more diplomatic way is to tip each crew something according to there post, when you finish you will most likely have tipped about 5% of the charter fee, a much more resonable amount..

Good luck and have fun, crewed yacht charter is amongst the best ways of having a successful sailing holiday


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## jmdelbello

There is an article about this at:
http://www.sailing-advisor.com/yacht-charter-crew-skipper.html
Hope it helps.


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## T34C

TIPS - To Insure Proper Service. I think the owner/captain already agreed to give proper service when he/she accepted the charter, and your money. Tipping an owner used to be considered an insult. It indicated that you expected less than proper service from THEIR business. Owner/captains don't live off tips, they live off of charter fees and referals. If you feel your charter was a good experiece, give the captain the best tip, refer a friend.


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## camaraderie

T34C...
2 wrongs...
TIPS does not stand for that...see Urban Legends
Owner captains need tips and count on them...just ask one!...and by all means give em a referral too!


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## yotphix

Hey, yacht crew here! Yep we get tips when we show people a good time. Very rarely less than ten percent and sometimes a well heeled and appreciative guest goes to 20 percent or more. Most boats the captain splits even steven with the crew. Tipping according to position would suck. A dh works harder than anyone on a well maintained vessel and you probably wouldn't think that "according to position" they deserve a an equal tip to the Captain or the Chef. Plus the dh makes less to start with.

BTW Captain's got that yacht you want only because he is willing to share it with anybody who has the $$. Would you really want to do that?


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## xort

Try this...

Don't tip the boat but do tip the captain and crew.
What I mean is don't base your 15% on the entire cost of the trip, that would mean you are tipping the boat as well as everything else. A good captain gets about $250 per day so tip 15 to 20% of that, $40 per day or so. Figure the mate gets about $150 per day, etc...


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## T34C

We all have a working knowledge of what a tip is right? I wouldn't tip the owner of the boat any more than I would tip the owner of a cafe. Their business/reputation depends on their providing good service. If the owner/captain "counts" on tips to make a living, perhaps he/she needs to raise their prices. If their not good enough to demand a higher price for quality service, then they probably don't deserve a tip in the first place. Everyone is stating as fact that you must tip. A tip is a reward, not just the rest of your pay that the customer is responsible to provide.

I do agree that a deckhand works very hard and may deserve a tip at the end of the day if they directly assisst the customer.


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## hellosailor

You guys are debating the concept of tips...And that's not the question here.

IF tips are customary and expected, on a cruise, a charter, in a bar, cab, or whatever, then you either pony up and follow the custom, or not. If the broker and the locals say "Yes, around here we tip a charter regardless of who is manning it" then that's expected of you.

If you want to make a political statement and stiff them...that's something else again. Getting lowballed and not realizing you need to pay heavy tips (like a first timer on a cruise line may be) can be a shock. But when in Rome...there's a time to make the political statements, and a time to simply do as Romans do.

The broker who placed the charter, indicated there's a price for the charter, with an extra 15% expected if you enjoy the service. Don't think an owner should be tipped? No problem, tell him in advance you want the "fixed price" for the charter, with all gratuities included. He's already told you (effectively) he's willing to gamble 15% on your happiness, think of that as a satisfaction guarantee adjustment. Tell him up front, if you plan to stiff him.


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## ceberon

hellosailor said:


> The broker who placed the charter, indicated there's a price for the charter, with an extra 15% expected if you enjoy the service. Don't think an owner should be tipped? No problem, tell him in advance you want the "fixed price" for the charter, with all gratuities included. He's already told you (effectively) he's willing to gamble 15% on your happiness, think of that as a satisfaction guarantee adjustment. Tell him up front, if you plan to stiff him.


I think hellosailor has a really good point. Cruises / charters are priced (and crew are paid) in a way that assumes tip. If you think tipping is only for exceptional service, then you should probably warn them ahead of time, and they can adjust their prices.

I personally would prefer prices be a bit lower, and I can choose to tip the amount I think the service was worth. If I have a great crew (even if they also own the boat), then I'll pay more than I would for a crummy crew. Seems pretty fair to me.


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## labatt

Well, just to let everyone know what we did, we had a wonderful time (positively) on our trip and we tipped 15%.


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## Headingsouth

You wouldn't tip the owner of a cafe, so you don't have to tip the owner of the boat? The tip is not for his ownership position, it is for the job of captain. If the owner paid a captain $1,000, that would be $1,000 less profit the owner would get, so in essence, he is simply working for $1,000 per week in lieu of paying someone else. Makes sense to me if he has the time. If the owner of the cafe was your waiter, got your drinks and bussed your table - would you still stiff him? Most owner/captains are small businesses facing boat payments, dock fees, payroll, etc., just like every other small business owner.


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## Clipper747

We recently took a two day sail costing $1000 a day. It was just the owner/skipper and a couple. The owner told us after we signed the two day contract that he expected a 15%-25% tip (in writing) on top of the $1000 a day. The skipper also expected us to take him out to dinner with us and pay. He was an alright skipper, did not know how to trim the sails properly, over trimmed constantly. Boat was fine but old, sheets had holes. He served us a cold breakfast and a sandwich for lunch. We felt that the owner should have stated that he expected a 15-25% on top of the $1000 a day prior to our signing up. I would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks


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## tempest

I'd be more than happy to take you sailing for $900 a day. You don't have to tip me or feed me. In fact, I'll cook for you.


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## hellosailor

"The owner told us after we signed"
In the auto sales business this is called a "bush". Basically, extorting more money after the agreed sales price.
You have no obligation beyond the original contract and a "tip" is never obligated. It has to be EARNED by superior performance that goes above and beyond the mundane and normal.
I'd take out a new shiny penny and say "See this? " flip it over the side and say "There's your tip, go dive for it."

I do not appreciate some whore trying to bush me.


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## mbianka

labatt said:


> We're heading for a crewed charter in a couple of days in Maine. We'll have a captain/owner on board. The charter broker said that a 15% gratuity is standard for a good charter. Since we're talking thousands of dollars for the charter fee, we're talking hundreds of dollars for a gratuity. Is this a standard practice for a crewed charter? When the crew is the owner of the boat? Thanks!


We have done a number of crewed charters in various parts of the world and 15% is usually what we give. We have mostly gone through brokers who take a cut of the price of the charter so the owner/crew often does not see the whole amount you've paid. There was one aloof Captain who we were willing to stiff because of his behavior but, his crew/wife was very nice and also great cook. We felt sorry for her being stuck with this guy so we justified it as a tip for her. On another charter we gave 10% not because the charter was bad but, because the charter cost was way above what our usual budget was. It was still a substantial tip and we will charter with them again so they will have gained repeated bookings and revenues from us.


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## hellosailor

Tipping is normal on charters and even on sailing schools/trips, but I think there's a difference between coming out and saying "Oh by the I expect..." and replying, if asked, as to what people normally do.

I think even the cruise lines have learned that it is one thing to say "guests are expected to..." or "tips not included", without coming out somewhat, ah, rudely and saying "By the way I expect...".

What momma said about "What's the magic word?"


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## RobGallagher

You tip what you want, what you can afford, up to you. I do tip bartenders and wait staff all the time because their income depends on it. A launch driver or dock hand less so because I know they make more than the minimum wage.


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## steelbirdsailing

I think it depends on the charter booking. For instance I know some charter companies apply a commission to the day skipper rate which means the skipper is actually earning less than what you are paying. Usually you can tell this based on if the company asks for the skipper payment direct to them or asks you to pay the skipper yourselves. At our company we ask for the full £120 day fee for a skipper to be payed directly to the skipper and then a TIP is optional based on the skippers performance over your trip. Personally as I have an interest in the company I do not take tips from customers but I do ask customers to instead use that money to TIP our marina based team that put the effort in to making all the yachts clean and well maintained for our customers.

Just yesterday we had a situation where the customer had sourced their own skipper which they were paying for the week. After being out for the last 3 days they came back for dinner and the so called skipper couldn't maneuver a 53 foot yacht in to a berth that had 2 empty berths on either side of it (not to mention it was an outside position in the marina with nothing in front of it). 15 minutes later and with the help of 2 marina zodiacs they gave up. Then one of our marina team got one of the zodiacs to drop him off on board and he had it in and done in 2 minutes flat. The point being Tip if they deserve it I would say.

Also in one of the previous posts somebody mentioned about a cold breakfast and somebody mentioned about taking the skipper to dinner. In around Turkey the general rule is skippers are expected to look after your welfare and the yachts well being. It is not their responsibility to cater for you. On the contrary it is the responsibility of the customer to provide food for the skipper. If you cook on board or if you go to a restaurant. If you want food prepared as well then you usually hire a hostess that will be able to provide this service.


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## jephotog

I have worked in the service industry a large part of my life and in a way still do. Although I am no longer getting tips from it, because I provide service for an individual now. I do spend a lot of time on the road and work amongst other service people that i do tip and then bill my boss for it. Sometimes I will also do some of the grunt work myself like carry my own luggage or retrieve something I want instead of getting the service people to do it for me. If I demand some service I expect to tip.

To me 20% is standard for wait staff if they do a good job but 15% on a bill that is 4 figures does not make sense. My thought process would be tip the person according to "rank" on a boat but appreciate the idea of tipping all equally because the deckhand had to probably work the hardest and makes less already. Better yet tip according to the level of service they provide to you or how hard you saw them working in general.

Telling someone this is what you are expected to tip and you have to take me to dinner is just tacky. Imagine having to drag a freeloading Captain to dinner every night on your Honeymoon? I would take him to dinner if he was a good host just so my service did not suck then, probably stiff him on tip, just because he had no cooth.

As a Service Industry Professional here are some tips on tipping. Big tippers get better service. Tip your bartender $5-10 on your first drink, he/she will be attentive the rest of the night. Buy a big bottle of wine and tip 20%, your waiter will remember your name when you go in the next night. If you or your spouse are demanding, tip extra on the effort you have cost the server. There is possibly another customer that has been neglected because you needed each entree described in detail before ordering. If you don't tip well after this the server will remember your name also but not in a good way.

Tips do not have to be in the form of cash. Taking the crew to dinner, pouring a taste of your wine for your server if you are drinking something special, buying a round for the kitchen if the food was great. The last step only if the kitchen is small and you can afford a round for the staff. The fastest way to a cook's heart is through his liver.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Remember, tipping is very much by country. Some wait staff are paid well because of a countries laws. Other countries, like the USA, have quite low hourly rates and high cultural acceptance of tipping. In Australia bar staff earn a minimum $19.48 per hour with a dollar equivilancy similar to US dollars (not the exchange rate!).

As an American its important not to over-tip in a country you are visiting but to tip the going amount. $5 to $10 for the first drink may sound fine to some New Yorker but given in some countries its a few days wages. Remember over-tipping can have consequences too: those that follow you, and to the wait staff too as a manager/owner may want the few days wages you just dropped.










And puleeeze can people stop adding a tip on top of a bill that has the gratuity already included?

Mark


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## pdqaltair

Would you tip differently (US) if the owner or family waited on you vs. unrelated staff? To my mind there is no difference, once you accept that a tip is a standard part of the transaction and implied cost. (If you do NOT accept that tipping is normal in a certain transaction, that is totally different. In general, people should do their job without tipping.)

Just a question, as this is common in small restaurants.


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## SloopJonB

Tipping in all industries has gotten completely out of hand - it's become merely an expected extra payment. At one time *up to* 10% was the norm for exceptional service. Now the receivers seem to set the standard and it's getting nuts - supposedly you are supposed to tip waiters here *20%* now - according to *them*, just for doing their job. And that's on the entire bill, including liquor and tax which was never included in the past. Industries have gotten on to this and now some don't even pay their staff, relying on the exorbitant tip expectations to pay for them. I've even had waiters not return with my change, just keeping it as a "tip".

Tipping the owner has *never* been the norm in any industry, even if they do your haircut or serve you at the table.

Use your judgement as to whether it's deserved or not, as it should always be.


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## MarkofSeaLife

pdqaltair said:


> Would you tip differently (US) if the owner or family waited on you vs. unrelated staff?


I don't know. Often times the family of the owner gets no pay at all and probably more deserve a tip than anyone. What is the cultural norm?

Services erk me too... a taxi driver for example. So now I just don't use taxis but use Uber because there's no tipping. (And its funcianality worldwide is utterly sensational!).

In the original post the charter captain was the boat owner. Weird situation.


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## JimMcGee

Clipper747 said:


> We recently took a two day sail costing $1000 a day. It was just the owner/skipper and a couple. The owner told us after we signed the two day contract that he expected a 15%-25% tip (in writing) on top of the $1000 a day. The skipper also expected us to take him out to dinner with us and pay. He was an alright skipper, did not know how to trim the sails properly, over trimmed constantly. Boat was fine but old, sheets had holes. He served us a cold breakfast and a sandwich for lunch. We felt that the owner should have stated that he expected a 15-25% on top of the $1000 a day prior to our signing up. I would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks


If the captain really did this, and honestly it sounds a bit exaggerated, I would have walked.

No need to argue, sometimes the right response is to tear up the contract and simply walk away. It's never a good idea to deal with a dishonest person.


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## MikeOReilly

Tipping is cultural-based. As a traveller I try and conform to the standards of where I am. In the case of tipping that means doing as the Romans do; not tipping too little, but not too much either. 

But in the OPs case, I'm not sure I'd be inclined to "tip" an owner/charter captain. In this case, the tip amount should have been included in the up front charter fee. The owner is not an employee, but clearly demands this additional amount for the charter. And I certainly wouldn't react well to someone altering the contract and imposing an additional cost after the charter deal has been signed.

The issue with tipping in general here in North America is that it has become part of the business model. Owners underpay their staff, and customers are expected to make up the difference in "tips." I put it in quotes, b/c it's no longer a tip, it really is part of their pay package and the cost of the service. By refusing to pay people adequately, business can pretend to keep the cost of their product or service lower when in reality the price includes this extra 20%. 

I don't blame the employees. We're all complicit in this game of chasing the lowest price, at any cost. If we raised the minimum wage to a living wage, maybe we could do away with the expanding scourge of tipping.


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## pdqaltair

MikeOReilly said:


> In this case, the tip amount should have been included in the up front charter fee. The owner is not an employee, but clearly demands this additional amount for the charter.


a. If the request for 15-20% and dinner was not in the contract (it was after), he didn't change the contract. It's still up to you to decide, based upon service. Maybe the service was not great.

b. Was it included in the charter fee? In my example of the restaurant, the fee is the same whether staff or the owner waits on you, thus the owner has NOT built the cost in and is just as deserving; you would tip based on what is customary. In this case, was the fee 15-20% higher than normal? If it wasn't, then how and why can we assume the cost was built in?

I know a few owners that self-charter. It ain't big money after you look at all of the costs.

The notion that tipping is based upon income is false. We over-tip the bar keeper, but most do not tip hotel cleaning staff. Perhaps it is because no one would see us do it.


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## SloopJonB

We always leave $5/day for the hotel cleaners - they probably need & deserve it more than anyone.


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## MikeOReilly

pdqaltair said:


> a. If the request for 15-20% and dinner was not in the contract (it was after), he didn't change the contract. It's still up to you to decide, based upon service. Maybe the service was not great.





> We recently took a two day sail costing $1000 a day. It was just the owner/skipper and a couple._ The owner told us after we signed the two day contract that he *expected*_ a 15%-25% tip (in writing) on top of the $1000 a day. The skipper also expected us to take him out to dinner with us and pay.


My emphasis added. The OP theoretically had an option not pay this additional fee, but taking the OP at his/her word, they clearly had little choice. The actual fee for this contract was 15% to 25% higher than originally agreed. They could have walked away from the charter, but since they probably already invested in travel, time off work, etc. there really was little real choice. Carrying on with the charter then means the OP was agreeing to this additional fee, which is a breach of the original contract.



pdqaltair said:


> b. Was it included in the charter fee? In my example of the restaurant, the fee is the same whether staff or the owner waits on you, thus the owner has NOT built the cost in and is just as deserving; you would tip based on what is customary. In this case, was the fee 15-20% higher than normal? If it wasn't, then how and why can we assume the cost was built in?


I didn't say the restaurant fee included the full cost (the additional 15%-20% "tip"). And I said nothing about an owner/staffer deserving (or not) the additional fee. The thing I'm pointing out is that as an charter-owner/owner-server, they are the one pricing the product or service. If they "deserve" an additional amount, then they can price the service at that rate. A server/hired captain does not have that option. THAT is why I would be less inclined to tip an owner.



pdqaltair said:


> I know a few owners that self-charter. It ain't big money after you look at all of the costs.


I don't doubt that. But that's irrelevant to my comments.



pdqaltair said:


> The notion that tipping is based upon income is false. We over-tip the bar keeper, but most do not tip hotel cleaning staff. Perhaps it is because no one would see us do it.


I'm not sure what you mean by "over-tipping the bar keeper." Says who? Based on what? In any case, most people that I know DO tip hotel cleaning staff now here in North America. Heck, many hotels now provide handy in-room tip envelopes just for this purpose. This is a change over the last decade or so. It's part of the creeping off-loading of employee cost directly onto the customer or the state/social services.


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## eherlihy

I just love how these zombie threads keep getting resurrected. This one was started by labatt in August of 2006. labatt returned in November of that year to say that he did tip the guy 15% of the total. labatt last posted in SailNet on 05-22-2013 10:23, and hasn't been back since. I believe that Clipper747 should have started a new thread based on his experience.

This seems to have evolved into a discussion on tipping, or more properly, a gratuity, for service. I actually have done several gigs as a charter captain / sailing instructor (none on my boat). Here is what I can share from my experience; the pay, compared to what I used to receive in a white collar job is pathetic, the hours are long, and as captain you are responsible for everything (including the weather). When you first meet a client, you don't know what the client's personality/quirks will be, and you're going to be with the clients 24 x 7. Discretion is an unwritten job requirement.

I have had clients that were great, and I believe that we have had a great time, and I have had clients that were a total PITA. They all get treated with as much respect and discretion as I can muster.

Most of my charter clients have tipped me, as have many of my students. Some clients have come back to my employer as repeat clients, and many of them have asked to have me as a captain / instructor again. While there are many clients that have not provided me a gratuity, but for whom I will gladly work again, I will also say that, all other things being equal;
* Given the choice between working with a client / student that has tipped me, and one that has not, I will go with the client that has tipped. 
* Given the choice between working with a client that is new, and one that has tipped me, I'll go with the client that has tipped. 
* Given the choice between working with a client that is new, and one that has not tipped me, I'll go with the client that is new.

I will also share that there have been a few clients for whom given the choice between working on my boat, or captaining for them, I'll work on my boat (or paint the condo, or organize my socks). Coincidentally, none of these clients have tipped me.

Think of the tip as an expression of gratitude, not a tax. If you would write a "thank you" note, a tip is appropriate.

Now, given Clipper747's experience; old boat, crappy food, holes in sheets, not likely to return again - I believe that to not tip the guy would be appropriate. Either that, or Clipper747 should have cancelled the reservation when it was revealed that the guy wanted an additional 15%.

And for those inquiring minds who read this; when I have received tips, the tips that I've received were anywhere between $15 and $100 per day. Considering that captained charters on the boats that I sail go for $550-$950 per day, the tip shouldn't be a big deal...


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## capta

I can't believe the number of folks on here who don't believe a charter crew should be tipped. That's truly amazing to me.
Obviously none of them has ever been on a crewed term charter. They have absolutely no idea of how difficult it is to give folks the vacation of a lifetime on a 50' boat.
Not only is entertainment limited, but insuring one's guests have a great (not good, but great) time, no matter the weather or lack of many of the basic amenities most have in their homes, like unlimited water and power. It's not like we have huge supermarkets like you do back home, in each anchorage (or ANY anchorage) that we can run to daily to create the spectacular meals our cooks prepare. If the fishermen don't catch fish/lobster, how can we serve it? 
Tipping is of course not required, but it is a gauge the crew uses to determine how well they did at their job. A $150.00 each (for two guests; that's about 14 breakfasts, lunches and dinners, plus appetizers and drinks whenever requested) tip on a $6000 charter would indicate to me that my guests were quite displeased by our performance and as we moved to another charter area (the Greek Isles from the Antilles) we would not be willing to have them aboard again. In fact, if they were that displeased, why would they even ask? Even a $600 tip would not show us we had done a superlative job. You might tip a bellman $5.00 for two minutes work, but tipping your crew for being at your service 24 hours a day for 7 days (never mind giving you a great experience you will remember for the rest of your life) isn't worth 15%?
Many of us are doing everything we can to keep the costs of term charters as low as possible, even going so far as to offer half board trips now, but if you can't afford to show your appreciation for a difficult job very well done, then I suggest you stick with bareboating.


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## MikeOReilly

capta said:


> ...You might tip a bellman $5.00 for two minutes work, but tipping your crew for being at your service 24 hours a day for 7 days (never mind giving you a great experience you will remember for the rest of your life) isn't worth 15%?


Since you are clearly saying the cost of the service really is at least 15% higher, then simply price your service at that rate. Don't pretend this is a tip. It's part of the fee your customer is expected to pay.



capta said:


> Many of us are doing everything we can to keep the costs of term charters as low as possible, even going so far as to offer half board trips now, but if you can't afford to show your appreciation for a difficult job very well done, then I suggest you stick with bareboating.


Or ... price the service at the rate you expect to get paid.

Look, I'm not one who doesn't tip. I recognize that owners have decided to artificially keep the cost of their services down by developing a tipping culture. It's happened all over the place, mostly in lower-end service industries. But it is creeping all over the services sector for exactly this reason: owners can pretend the cost is lower than it really is.

I would tip a paid charter captain and crew (assuming they didn't do a crappy job) b/c I understand the silly system we've all complicity created. The owner is underpaying the staff, and I am making up the difference of the real cost with this "tip." Got it. Paid staff don't have the ability to price the service, but owners do. So I would be less inclined to tip an owner who is acting as a crew.


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## Don L

I don't feel tipping is appropriate for people who aren't getting paid a very low wage that is based on working in a "tipping expected" position. And it really pisses me off when I get shaken down for tip by a person I know is getting paid a regular wage appropriate for their job.


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## caberg

Who would want to pay to go on a crewed charter anyway? Being confined to a small space with complete strangers, having meals with them, having to small talk, having to wear clothes, wondering if I'm being judged when cracking a beer at 10 a.m.? Not my idea of vacation, at all.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Especially where I being shaken down by somone who earns more than me!


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## capta

MikeOReilly said:


> I would tip a paid charter captain and crew (assuming they didn't do a crappy job) b/c I understand the silly system we've all complicity created. .


Well, I guess you missed the point completely. Tipping is the only gauge a crew has for knowing if they've done a good job. It has NOTHING to do with money or how much the crew gets paid. If you didn't have a good time, don't tip. If you had an OK experience, don't tip. But if you've had an incredible, unique and memorable experience, then tip and tip well. 
I can't tell you how many charters I've run where it was impossible to gauge how pleased our customers were (usually Europeans and French Canadians) until they tipped us. Language barriers and cultural differences play a significant part in this. 
Anyway, I can't imagine any couple who can afford 6 to 8k for a week on a term charter boat, plus transportation to and from the vessel, can't afford an added 10 to 15% to show their appreciation to the crew, if they deserve it.
As for an owner operated vessel, you are basically being invited into his or her home. Why would you feel that deserved less consideration than a captain operating an owner's boat?


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## caberg

capta said:


> Well, I guess you missed the point completely. Tipping is the only gauge a crew has for knowing if they've done a good job. It has NOTHING to do with money or how much the crew gets paid.


Right, I'm sure the crew would much rather receive a genuine heartfelt thanks than money.


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## Don L

capta said:


> Well, I guess you missed the point completely. Tipping is the only gauge a crew has for knowing if they've done a good job. It has NOTHING to do with money or how much the crew gets paid.


Interesting. I would think a hand shake and "I've really enjoyed my trip and feel you did a great job." Would be an excellent gauge.

Unless of course it has EVERYTHING to do with money.


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## MikeOReilly

capta said:


> Well, I guess you missed the point completely. Tipping is the only gauge a crew has for knowing if they've done a good job. It has NOTHING to do with money or how much the crew gets paid.


So a big and clear "Thank you!" is all you're really looking for. Good to know 

I've never acted as charter crew, but I have taught intensive adult education courses that stretch over days with a broad spectrum of differing nationalities. I could sure tell if they thought I was doing a good job or not, and there was no tipping required or expected (although I sure would have liked more money ... who wouldn't?). I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but it's really hard for me to imagine anyone, let alone someone in the service business, being unable to read their customers' mood _sans_ a wad of cash in an envelope.


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## capta

How many people in your lives just say the appropriate words no matter how they actually feel? None? Lucky you.
But have it your way; I'm just a greedy pr*ck.


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## capta

MikeOReilly said:


> So a big and clear "Thank you!" is all you're really looking for. Good to know
> 
> I've never acted as charter crew, but I have taught intensive adult education courses that stretch over days with a broad spectrum of differing nationalities. I could sure tell if they thought I was doing a good job or not, and there was no tipping required or expected (although I sure would have liked more money ... who wouldn't?). I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but it's really hard for me to imagine anyone, let alone someone in the service business, being unable to read their customers' mood _sans_ a wad of cash in an envelope.


How can you compare teaching a few hours a day over a few days to seeing to every want and need of some guests 24 hours a day for up to ten days? That's just silly.


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## MikeOReilly

capta said:


> How can you compare teaching a few hours a day over a few days to seeing to every want and need of some guests 24 hours a day for up to ten days? That's just silly.


I guess you missed the point completely  What's silly is your ridiculous claim that a tip is the only way you can get feedback from your clients, and therefore you need a tip to somehow understand the service you're providing. That, my friend, is what's plain silly.

You want the extra money, plain and simple. Who wouldn't? Don't hide behind some ridiculous claim about this being the only way to get feedback. You want the extra cash. Nothing wrong with that. Just own it.


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## MikeOReilly

capta said:


> How many people in your lives just say the appropriate words no matter how they actually feel? None? Lucky you.
> But have it your way; I'm just a greedy pr*ck.


I've never suggested you, or anyone else who wants tips, is greedy. Quite the opposite. I've said very clearly that the issue is not the tip, it's the fact that tipping has been co-opted by business owners as a way of underpaying their staff and therefore hiding the real cost of the service. I believe any good low-end service provider IS worth more than they are being paid. This is why I usually tip 15%-20%, and I would likely do so in the case of charter crews if that was the going rate (when in Rome...).

The simple point is that IF you are the owner, then you have control over how you price your product or service. So if you truly expect a 20% "tip" on top of the price you quote to customers, then just say that up front.


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## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> ...use Uber because there's no tipping.....


Those days are probably going to end. Their competitors are allowing the passenger to add a tip, via the app. Uber drivers are also able to rate you as a passenger and there have been articles recently, that you get lower ratings if you don't tip.

Uber themselves have been reported to insist their drivers deny a cash tip (as there is no way to include within their app). However, they also say to accept it, if the passenger insists.

I do love Uber. More for the convenience of knowing when they'll arrive, not having to walk to a nearby busy street to hail a cab and the ability to jump out, if stuck in traffic, and not have to wait to settle the tab.


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## Minnewaska

Tipping is a controversial issue. I often interpret people's receptivity to the concept as whether it is stressful for them. Some find stress, simply because they are cheap. But, I think more often, they just don't want to be bothered to have to figure it out, or for that matter, take responsibility for grading the service. 

Personally, I'm a fan of tipping. However, and this is a huge "however", it has to be for personal service that is variable. In other words, I hate tip jars for the kid that just poured my coffee from an urn behind the counter and handed it to me. That's labor, not variable service. While I see it mentioned above, I have no idea why one would tip a hotel cleaner they've never met, unless they caused a mess that would be above and beyond. For that matter, how would you know you were even tipping the person who cleaned the room over the course of your stay? There is no more personal service in cleaning a room then there was from the guy who put the carpet down. Goodness, the front desk clerk that checked you in was more personal and variable. In this case, the hotels should pay a fair wage and I suspect they don't.

On the other hand, the value and service from a waiter or bartender is a huge part of the restaurant experience for me. Are they attentive, knowledgeable, helpful in menu selection, even just nice to have around? Those variable traits are worth paying more for. They aren't just shuttling food. Their total wages should have a variable component.

Our dock hands are another perfect example. They are available to help take a line, but are not required to do so. They are certainly not required to know how to tie up your boat. If available, they will come take a line. The kids that do a great job at that, I tip well. It's a variable service. First, they have to show up, optionally. Second, some really get it down well. One kids is afixing our spring lines, just the way we like them, without even be asked anymore. He remembers. Great kid. 

While tipping is indeed cultural, it's also economic. Some jobs, such as waiters, are allowed to be paid less than minimum wages, as tips are ordinary. I'm okay with that, as many wait staff make pretty good money overall. I'm not okay with paying the jerk as much as the helpful and just mandating a higher hourly wage for all these service positions. Personal opinion.

In the end, if I get good variable service, I tip very well. 20% or more at restaurants, when the service is good. I will not, however, tip for stuff that is just being done, especially if its not being done in my presence. 

On a related note, but not directly to tipping. I think a high indicator of one's character is how they treat their service staff. I don't care what you tip or how good or bad they are, one should treat service staff with respect and dignity. I see violations of this routinely and it turns my stomach.


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## caberg

I'd say more people tip out of a sense of obligation to tip, rather than on the basis of their true satisfaction with the experience. In the most common tipping experience, restaurants and bars, I know that's what I do. I always tip loosely around 20% because it's easy to take 10% of the bill, double it, and round to the nearest whole dollar. It's just automatic, I really don't think about it, but if anything I tip because I know my tip is part of the person's wage, and tips are the only way the person is going to pay the bills each month. So if the handful of servers that I tip on a weekly basis are trying to read something into my tip, they are wasting their time. I'll genuinely thank a server if the service has been good.


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## capta

MikeOReilly said:


> I've never suggested you, or anyone else who wants tips, is greedy. Quite the opposite. I've said very clearly that the issue is not the tip, it's the fact that tipping has been co-opted by business owners as a way of underpaying their staff and therefore hiding the real cost of the service. I believe any good low-end service provider IS worth more than they are being paid. This is why I usually tip 15%-20%, and I would likely do so in the case of charter crews if that was the going rate (when in Rome...).
> 
> The simple point is that IF you are the owner, then you have control over how you price your product or service. So if you truly expect a 20% "tip" on top of the price you quote to customers, then just say that up front.


Have you even looked at a site for term charter boats? You will find most, if not all have a notation on there stating something like; "A crew gratuity, at your discretion, typically 10% to 15% of the rate, is not included." How is that not up front and quite clear?. This isn't an included "service charge" like so many places are doing these days.


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## capta

caberg said:


> I'd say more people tip out of a sense of obligation to tip, rather than on the basis of their true satisfaction with the experience. In the most common tipping experience, restaurants and bars, I know that's what I do. I always tip loosely around 20% because it's easy to take 10% of the bill, double it, and round to the nearest whole dollar. It's just automatic, I really don't think about it, but if anything I tip because I know my tip is part of the person's wage, and tips are the only way the person is going to pay the bills each month. So if the handful of servers that I tip on a weekly basis are trying to read something into my tip, they are wasting their time. I'll genuinely thank a server if the service has been good.


See, I'm completely the opposite. I don't consider it my responsibility to cover the deficiencies in waitstaff pay. 
If I get terrible service from someone with a bad attitude, I'll leave a quarter to say, 'I know about tipping, and this is what you deserve for today's service'. Good service will get the going rate (my math skills are excellent) and outstanding service gets an outstanding and memorable tip.
A hail and hearty thank you can be nothing more than common courtesy in today's society, but a tip is a representation of a person's willingness to share something they themselves worked hard to earn.


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## caberg

capta said:


> See, I'm completely the opposite. I don't consider it my responsibility to cover the deficiencies in waitstaff pay.
> If I get terrible service from someone with a bad attitude, I'll leave a quarter to say, 'I know about tipping, and this is what you deserve for today's service'. Good service will get the going rate (my math skills are excellent) and outstanding service gets an outstanding and memorable tip.
> A hail and hearty thank you can be nothing more than common courtesy in today's society, but a tip is a representation of a person's willingness to share something they themselves worked hard to earn.


Yup, I certainly am completely opposite. Don't think I've ever completely stiffed a server on a tip, at least that I can recall. Everyone has a bad day. I won't penalize a server for who knows what else might be going on in his or her life. I'll give the person the benefit of doubt and assume that he or she is distracted by something far more important than my meal, or is being overworked, or is dealing with a di*k boss. If the person is legitimately rude to me I guess I'd consider a reduced tip to "send a message" or whatever, but that would be very rare.


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## RobGallagher

MikeOReilly said:


> So a big and clear "Thank you!" is all you're really looking for. Good to know
> 
> I've never acted as charter crew, but I have taught intensive adult education courses that stretch over days with a broad spectrum of differing nationalities. I could sure tell if they thought I was doing a good job or not, and there was no tipping required or expected (although I sure would have liked more money ... who wouldn't?). I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but it's really hard for me to imagine anyone, let alone someone in the service business, being unable to read their customers' mood _sans_ a wad of cash in an envelope.


I'm curious, did you ever receive a gift at the end of a class?

I taught a specific job skill, 6 - 12 week courses, for an employer and almost always received a nice gift (most often a gift card) at the end of the class. Those attending the class would all chip in. Really the same thing as a tip IMHO.


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## MikeOReilly

RobGallagher said:


> I'm curious, did you ever receive a gift at the end of a class?
> 
> I taught a specific job skill, 6 - 12 week courses, for an employer and almost always received a nice gift (most often a gift card) at the end of the class. Those attending the class would all chip in. Really the same thing as a tip IMHO.


None. The organizations I usually worked for (universities, colleges and professional associations) most often had clear policies against this sort of thing. I often did go out for beers or meals after course with the students. I will admit that sometimes I'd have my tab covered, but I always tried to avoid this as well.

As I keep saying, I'm not opposed to tipping as an established practice. It is now built into the economic system of mostly the low-end service industry, but it is creeping up the financial ladder. Soon we'll be expected to tip our plumber, our doctor, our lawyer.

My specific objection is with an owner/operator who expects a tip. They have the option of pricing his service at the rate he expect to receive, so just do so. I know I would be more inclined to book a service which stated clearly NO TIPS ALLOWED.


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## MarkofSeaLife

capta said:


> See, I'm completely the opposite. I don't consider it my responsibility to cover the deficiencies in waitstaff pay.


Its not usual for me to completely disagree with Andrew, but in this case I am poles apart.
Yes, I do have cultural differences in tipping, we all know I am Australian. But the differences really go quite deep:
I would find it quite distasteful to expect a tip. I do a job at 100% of my ability for the agreed price and would think it extremely self indulgent to expect extra money just because I did so.
Further self indulgency would be to assume I only work a small amount for the agreed price and only pull my finger out of my bum on the clear understanding you are going to pay extra.

In general, after my trip to USA.

Finally, I couldn't give a rats bum what your labor laws say for peoples wages. If they are not happy to do a job then they can go back to school and get a ticket to s better job. There are too many wait staff in the USA doing menial jobs (waiting is a menial job imho) who should be doing study and getting educated jobs thus leving the menial jobs to those without pisability of intellectual progression.
You can't be a "smart nation" in the future while you have college graduates pulling beers.

Mark


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## Minnewaska

MikeOReilly said:


> ....My specific objection is with an owner/operator who expects a tip. They have the option of pricing his service at the rate he expect to receive, so just do so. I know I would be more inclined to book a service which stated clearly NO TIPS ALLOWED.


Maybe, but I'm not so sure. What would the owner add? When we compare companies, they are all remarkably close in price. Well within the level of tipping, in my experience.

No tipping allowed, may attract some, but it also eliminates one's ability to adjust cost for lousy service.


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## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> .....Finally, I couldn't give a rats bum what your labor laws say for peoples wages. If they are not happy to do a job then they can go back to school and get a ticket to s better job.


Not sure of your point. Labor laws in the US simply allow a lower hourly, because wait staff more than make up for it, via tips.



> There are too many wait staff in the USA doing menial jobs (waiting is a menial job imho) who should be doing study and getting educated jobs thus leving the menial jobs to those without pisability of intellectual progression.
> You can't be a "smart nation" in the future while you have college graduates pulling beers.
> 
> Mark


This has a lot of angles. No one size fits all. For example, the head bartender, at my fav NYC steakhouse, has been at his post for over 30 years. I've gotten to know him fairly well. His makes about 200k per year. The professional bartenders at all the high end joints do very well.

We also need to create more service oriented jobs. Technology used to eliminate jobs at an approximate rate that new industries or economic growth created new jobs. That's changed, for the first time in history, as productivity is far outpacing new job creation. Serious issue.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> No tipping allowed, may attract some, but it also eliminates one's ability to adjust cost for lousy service.


If the service is lousy you demand a refund from the charter agent! 
Rate it on Trip Advisor or wherever.
The only way for people to be trained is by proper crtical feedback... and the added incentive of less guests until the service quality is fixed.
Tell the agent you are not happy and there will be changes made. Tell the crew and they wont change they will just grumble at you.


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## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> If the service is lousy you demand a refund from the charter agent!
> Rate it on Trip Advisor or wherever.
> The only way for people to be trained is by proper crtical feedback... and the added incentive of less guests until the service quality is fixed.
> Tell the agent you are not happy and there will be changes made. Tell the crew and they wont change they will just grumble at you.


Can you honestly imagine getting any refund, just because you didn't like the service or thought the crew were snarky, but sailed the entire week and the boat worked fine? If it worked that way, I would consider it.

Complain on social media, etc, may be appropriate, but you still paid up and aren't getting it back.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Its a charter! You are paying for good happy service! Its not an option the crew decides on!


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## capta

caberg said:


> Everyone has a bad day. I won't penalize a server for who knows what else might be going on in his or her life. I'll give the person the benefit of doubt and assume that he or she is distracted by something far more important than my meal, or is being overworked,


That's an incredible attitude to me. Some wait person can't keep their sh*t together through your meal (35 minutes?) and you'd still tip, but when someone opens up their home to you and sees to your every reasonable desire 24/7, you think it's unreasonable to think a tip is in order, just because they are owner/operator?
Even if a child of mine died, the charter guests would never know. I would be horrified to think my personal problems ruined someone's sail with us.
A ruined meal doesn't seem to stack up at all against a vacation that for many might be a once in a lifetime experience. Something dreamed of and perhaps planned for years, so cancellation would hardly be an option.
Anyway, I must say I'm quite disturbed by the general consensus on here; I had no idea that so many people felt that way. I guess I've been extremely fortunate that most of my guests over the years, on a multitude of vessels, haven't felt the same. Or perhaps, they got so much more than they expected and hoped for, that they felt a gratuity was in order.


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## Jammer Six

capta said:


> Even if a child of mine died, the charter guests would never know.


For starters, it sounds like we care for our children more than you care for yours.

It sounds to me like you don't have children. If you do, I pity them.


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## capta

Jammer Six said:


> For starters, it sounds like we care for our children more than you care for yours.
> 
> It sounds to me like you don't have children. If you do, I pity them.


Have you just moved over here from Cruiser's forum? Seems so.


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## caberg

Capta, I think we're talking about different things. I'm not talking about paid crewed charters because I wouldn't do one. Somehow this conversation devolved into restaurant/bar servers -- very different I'm sure. In the latter, I always tip, I've stated my reasons why. I can't comment on the nuances of tipping paid charter captains/crew, and based on this discussion, good.


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## mbianka

caberg said:


> Who would want to pay to go on a crewed charter anyway? Being confined to a small space with complete strangers, having meals with them, having to small talk, having to wear clothes, wondering if I'm being judged when cracking a beer at 10 a.m.? Not my idea of vacation, at all.


My gal and I have done 15 plus charters over the years. She won't let me bareboat. Keeps mentioning something about me getting into my "Captain" mode.  That said while I would not mind being on my own boat. I don't like the idea of being on an unknown boat in unfamiliar waters with the potential of having to fix unfamiliar systems, engines etc... that are not mine. Because of her teaching schedule we have limited time in the winter. So a chartered catamaran is what she likes. I go along to get along. It's a sacrifice I know. 

Still I find a lot of advantages to these type of charters:

1) I don't have to do anything. Except maybe enjoy a boat drink whenever I damn want. I let the Captain worry about his own damn repair list and moving the boat.

2) I don't worry about where or when to anchor, snorkel etc... As the Captain and crew have the local knowledge for the best spots and times to get there and avoid the crowds etc...

3) One can scout out places one might want to come back to with ones own boat in the future and note others to avoid.

4) Can visit far distant places that I probably would never get to with my boat. Places like the Maldives which we have been to twice and keep thinking about going back to again. Walking right out of the airline terminal and onto the waiting boat is an experience. Got to see wonderful spots due to the local knowledge of our local Muslim Captains.
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: CAPT. MIKE IN THE MALDIVES: DAY SIX
Crew caught some wonderful fish with simple hand lines and had them on a plate within an hour for dinner.

5) Have done stateroom charters too. Always found the fellow passengers to be interesting and amiable. Never had a bad experience. People who choose to go on a catamaran charter are not the type you might find on a cruise ship.

6) Just like I get to sit back with a drink while the Captain and crew prepare meals, snacks fix things, take the dingy to scout out a snorkel spot , hand us fresh dry towels after we come back from a swim etc... For that kind of pampered service we are glad to give them a tips they deserve.


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## Don L

doesn't tipping just result in giving the slaves ideas?


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## RobGallagher

I worked for tips for most of my 'younger days'  SOME (not all) who have never worked for tips don't understand the concept or they are uncomfortable with getting around it.

When one thinks it through, it's really very simple. You get to decide the amount you pay someone for their services after the work is done. YOU get to choose from 0% to XXX% of the bill for the goods and back of the house costs.

The waiter, or captain, or butler, or whoever is like a salesperson who works on partial commission. YOU have a choice, always. Even if they tell you a gratuity is mandatory you can choose another venue. Even if the service was great you can tell them thank you and walk away. It's the emotions that bother people. Either not knowing what or when to tip, feeling guilty for being a cheapskate, or not knowing if they have overtipped and feel like a sucker.

Here is the truth. If you over tip, no one ever laughs behind your back as you walk away and calls you a sucker. It just does not happen (even, up to a point) if you acted like a jerk for the entire time you received service. Those from traditionally non-tipping parts of the world often have the attitude that those who tip are suckers, that emotion comes from simply not understanding.

Owner operators, be they charter boats or others, are a difficult animal for some to get their head around. You 'should' be getting the best service from these folks _and_ they are taking on another job, rather than hiring someone. It's still up to THEM how good you are treated. They may deserve something extra or not, it's always, as they say in Thailand "up to you".

For those that think that waiting tables or tending bar is some sort of mindless labor, they have never done it, or they did and were horrible at it. Good waitstaff make hundreds of dollars a day for a reason. They have organizational skills and physical abilities that anyone outside the service industry will never understand. There are some in any profession who perform their job just horribly, and there are others, generally more experienced, who are very good. It's like dealing dice or roulette, any idiot can do it (and there are those that understand who will chuckle at that statement).

If you have never waited 10 minutes to get a simple beer in bar with three patrons and two bartenders, or alternatively, never watched in fascination as a lone bartender took care of dozens of people at a crowded bar - taking multiple drink orders while making change and mixing drinks - always three steps ahead of themselves- YOU do not get out much or don't understand the value of your own time. If you have never been a return customer who is given a good table or had your drink ready when you sat down, then you don't understand the value of giving extra for special service.

Some people think that everyone should be treated the same, and those with extra money to throw around should wait in line just like everyone else. That's a nice opinion to have, but it's not realistic. Buy a first class airline ticket and you do not wait, in some countries you have your own line through immigration, the 18 year old Yamazaki flows, you have your own bathroom, if you are lucky, your own suite on the plane. Buy a new Porche every year and see what the salesman has delivered to you on New Year's Day, or if you just get that same Happy New Year email that you get from the Kia dealership you purchased from 8 years ago. Treat a bartender well and you will never have to wait for a drink, in a busy restaurant your food will come out first while someone else's filet continues to cook underneath the heating lamp.

When choosing a charter boat, you choose the best boat for the best price, including an optional gratuity. You just might get better service from an owner operator than an employee. Any type of mandatory tipping scheme is nothing more than a marketing ploy to make the boat itself seem like a better deal. I'm a tipper, and I avoid any service that includes mandatory tipping...maybe that's why I've never been married


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## Minnewaska

Another thought on building in the tip. I know we're not talking about restaurants, but there is an analogy. Have you ever had a large enough table that the restaurant adds a gratuity to the bill? That annoys me. In other words, there is suddenly a minimum tip, if you have 6 or 8 people typically. If they do that, then I just sign the tab. If the service is good, I always give more than they mandate. Their loss, if they build it in.


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## Don L

Minnewaska said:


> Another thought on building in the tip. I know we're not talking about restaurants, but there is an analogy. Have you ever had a large enough table that the restaurant adds a gratuity to the bill? That annoys me. In other words, there is suddenly a minimum tip, if you have 6 or 8 people typically. If they do that, then I just sign the tab. If the service is good, I always give more than they mandate. Their loss, if they build it in.


I've always had the feeling that they do that for big tables to make-up for loss of tips from the other tables now that they aren't getting taken care of.


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## Minnewaska

Don0190 said:


> I've always had the feeling that they do that for big tables to make-up for loss of tips from the other tables now that they aren't getting taken care of.


If you mean that the wait staff can't take the chance that they are stiffed at a large table, when they won't be able to take care of any others, that might be the reason. But, that's the fault of those that stiff the staff, despite service levels, and they exist.


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## hellosailor

So when all of you sailors ask your Congresscritter every year to increase the USCG budget, and of course you all do because we all know the USCG are underpaid overworked SOBs who sometimes save our lives without adequate resources or regard for the danger to themselves...

You've never tipped your Congresscritter for good service? And you've never tipped the SAR teams, either?

But the kid in Dunkin Donuts deserves a tip for pouring my cup of coffee?


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## Jammer Six

The problem with tipping conressmen is that it does not ensure good service. They never stay bought long enough.


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## Minnewaska

hellosailor said:


> So when all of you sailors ask your Congresscritter every year to increase the USCG budget, and of course you all do because we all know the USCG are underpaid overworked SOBs who sometimes save our lives without adequate resources or regard for the danger to themselves...
> 
> You've never tipped your Congresscritter for good service? And you've never tipped the SAR teams, either?
> 
> But the kid in Dunkin Donuts deserves a tip for pouring my cup of coffee?


Name one member of Congress that is there to serve anyone but themselves.

SAR is a very good point. But, as I think about it, they're not there to make your experience pleasant. They would pull you in the helo by your foot, if it's what it took to save your butt. 

No tipping coffee pourers, unless some variable service was performed.


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## Minnewaska

How about the fuel dock attendant? I do usually tip them, but they don't often do anything more than just hand me the nozzle. Since I know I'm going to tip them anyway (and need to think about why I do so as a routine) I always ask them for a little bit more, such as taking an additive bottle or diesel covered rag and dispose of it for me. 

I do consider anyone that has to manage the pump out hose to be worthy of more than their hourly wage, especially if they are patient enough to allow a rinse and re-pump. 

At transient fuel docks, I suppose the attendants have frequently been pretty helpful with local knowledge. That's worth a tip.


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## eko_eko

Minnewaska said:


> How about the fuel dock attendant? I do usually tip them, but they don't often do anything more than just hand me the nozzle. Since I know I'm going to tip them anyway (and need to think about why I do so as a routine) I always ask them for a little bit more, such as taking an additive bottle or diesel covered rag and dispose of it for me.
> 
> I do consider anyone that has to manage the pump out hose to be worthy of more than their hourly wage, especially if they are patient enough to allow a rinse and re-pump.
> 
> At transient fuel docks, I suppose the attendants have frequently been pretty helpful with local knowledge. That's worth a tip.


If the pumput or fuel person does anything more than just turn on the pump, they get a tip. So do any staff members who take a line or help with a boat hook. Given the budgets it takes to run these boats, what's a few extra dollars over the pumpout or fuel fee?


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## Minnewaska

eko_eko said:


> If the pumput or fuel person does anything more than just turn on the pump, they get a tip. So do any staff members who take a line or help with a boat hook. Given the budgets it takes to run these boats, what's a few extra dollars over the pumpout or fuel fee?


I sure don't mind tipping, as you'll note in my comments above. I do so generously, when a variable service is actually being provided and done well.

Taking a line to land the dock may qualify. There are those that are extra careful with fuel and/or pump outs that makes sense too. Some, as you point out, do virtually nothing more than run the credit card.


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## Jammer Six

When I'm docking, I'd tip people to stand back, leave the lines alone, stay out of the way and let us dock.


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## Minnewaska

Jammer Six said:


> When I'm docking, I'd tip people to stand back, leave the lines alone, stay out of the way and let us dock.


I get that. But, when they really are helpful, that's positive variable service.


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## ElkHunter

We recently chartered a boat in Maine. The marina was staffed by a couple of guys who were awesome in assisting us on boarding, supplying us with some last minute items and local information. After a week of sailing, back at the dock we got some help unloading all our gear and over-all awesome, friendly service. I tipped the guys who helped pack our gear $5 each and they certainly didn't expect it. I also gave the boat owner (he ran the harbor) $50 and his helper $25 because they provided excellent service, from my initial contact with them to book and all the way through our charter. They too were surprised at the tip but I felt it was the right thing to do. They all made our experience so enjoyable, I was happy to show a little extra appreciation.


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## Yamsailor

Speaking as someone who works in the industry I will say the following:

1) I never expect a tip from a particular customer, however if I never received a tip, I would think twice about working in that particular situation--for many reasons;

2) I think it should not matter whether your captain is the owner of the vessel or not the owner of the vessel. If you are very happy with the service you received, then I think it is nice to show it---in some form;

3) Tipping is a way of saying "Thank You" for a job that exceeded your expectations and showing appreciation for how you were treated;

4) When I receive a tip I usually say the following: "Thank you. Your tip is not necessary but is very much appreciated. I am glad you enjoyed your time sailing with me.";

5) I am in a unique situation, the owners with whom I work pay extremely well for the work that I do because I always go above and beyond what is expected from most Captains with my level of license and experience. These owners do not attempt to be the lowest (nor the highest) priced service providers. The owners view is, and this is verbatim: "if I can not pay you what you are worth, we will not work in this business." So I do not depend on tips for the majority of my remuneration--a lot of others captains in this industry consider tips a substantial portion of their remuneration.

6) I think 30% of the Captains are probably in the same situation as me. The other 70% get compensated way below what most of them are worth. Your average charter Captain in the Caribbean gets paid $150/day (US Dollars). With the exception of one or two organizations in the Caribbean (because I know them), I would not Captain a charter boat for a week for $1050 ($150/day x 7 days). $1050 (US Dollars) is little pay for having the responsibility to keep 4-12 lives safe not to mention a vessel worth $500,000-$1,000,000. I have trained long and hard to be a professional captain and I will not devalue myself by thinking someone is doing me a favor by letting me sail them around the caribbean for a week while thinking I am just a nautical bus driver. Remember, you are paying the captain more for when things go wrong than when everything is working out well. The skill pays off if a problem occurs. 

Happy New Year!


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## dvharman

I was a charter boat Captain here in Alaska as well a Costa Rica for 15 years before Commercial Trolling for Salmon. I can tell you owner or just a captain either way they live on those tips. That was the only reason it was worth it to me because salary is just so so. I averaged 200$ a day on every trip all summer. Same in Costa Rica but there I gave most of it to my deckhand. So yes its standard in all tourism when boats are involved unless its a big group like a large whale watching boat or similar.


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## Jammer Six

It's to be hoped that those against tips grow out of it. I did.


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## MikeOReilly

Jammer Six said:


> It's to be hoped that those against tips grow out of it. I did.


I'm *not* against paying people a fair amount for the service provided. I *am* against companies and a system that hides the real cost of the services provided by underpaying their workers.

If a "tip" is expected as a normal part of the transaction, then it is no longer a tip. It is part of the fee for the service. Again, I have no problem paying a fair amount for a service, and "fair" means having workers paid adequately. A business that refuses to pay their staff adequately, and expects the customer to make up the difference in "tips" is a dysfunctional business indeed. Sadly, this model is expanding in our "lowest price, at any cost" economy.


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## RobGallagher

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm *not* against paying people a fair amount for the service provided. I *am* against companies and a system that hides the real cost of the services provided by underpaying their workers.
> 
> If a "tip" is expected as a normal part of the transaction, then it is no longer a tip. It is part of the fee for the service. Again, I have no problem paying a fair amount for a service, and "fair" means having workers paid adequately. A business that refuses to pay their staff adequately, and expects the customer to make up the difference in "tips" is a dysfunctional business indeed. Sadly, this model is expanding in our "lowest price, at any cost" economy.


I agree with the fair wages. Until then, your prices don't go up to to pay the guy at the fuel dock a living wage. As it stands YOU get to decide if he did a good enough job to deserve more than $8 and hour. It's a pretty well known fact that those who provide great service get better tips. And there are lazy lumps who expect a tip for doing nothing extra, they make less.

I don't get how folks think that businesses will raise wages and not prices. Non-tippers are getting a free ride...they should be happy and enjoy it!


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## Minnewaska

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm *not* against paying people a fair amount for the service provided. I *am* against companies and a system that hides the real cost of the services provided by underpaying their workers........


What about the owner of the small business themselves? Probably mortgaged their house to open the business. They aren't guaranteed an income at all and most don't actually make enough to justify what they invested in the business, even if they're profitable. I seriously doubt any local coffee shop owner is making much money. Their income is entirely based upon service level and quality. I don't see why that's so different for the worker. They should get a fair base wage, that I agree with. I also think a variable additional wage makes sense. If you work harder, longer, faster, smarter, friendlier than the next worker, you should earn more. Capitalism.

In the end, if we eliminated tips, added them to wages, raised published prices to include them, we all pay essentially the same and the workers as a whole get the same. There is just no differentiation for better workers. Marxism essentially.


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## aeventyr60

Mike,

Don't squeeze that Looney too hard, you will get some poo on your fingers...


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## MarkofSeaLife

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm *not* against paying people a fair amount for the service provided. I *am* against companies and a system that hides the real cost of the services provided by underpaying their workers.
> 
> .


First person from north America who grasps this concept.

Funny thing is the reality of underpaying staff, lying about the menu(etc) prices, reduced staff benefits etc is totally illegal in most countries.
Sure, chuck a tip down for good service, that's legal most countries, but not the rest of it.

Mark


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## Don L

A lot of tipping (most) has involved from a guilt trip thing and has nothing to do with wages or service.


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## eherlihy

I have said this earlier; the correct term is "gratuity." One should be offered any time that you would say "thank you" to a person that provides you with a service.


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## Minnewaska

I wonder if a good waiter/waitress, who makes good money on tips, would be willing to go to a higher flat wage, but lower total comp.

No two employees have identical aptitude or work ethic. Some will be willing and able to do more than others. There is a minimum standard of productivity, for sure. However, if everyone is being paid the same, why try to exceed it?


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## Don L

Minnewaska said:


> I wonder if a good waiter/waitress, who makes good money on tips, would be willing to go to a higher flat wage, but lower total comp.


Probability not. My daughter worked 4 hours last night in a pub at a grocery store chain (Whole Foods). She made about $48 in salary and $140 in tips on a Thursday night.

But I really thought we were trying to talk about tipping in the boating world. Specifically people like line handlers, fuel docks, launch drivers.


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## MikeOReilly

RobGallagher said:


> I agree with the fair wages. Until then, your prices don't go up to to pay the guy at the fuel dock a living wage. As it stands YOU get to decide if he did a good enough job to deserve more than $8 and hour. It's a pretty well known fact that those who provide great service get better tips. And there are lazy lumps who expect a tip for doing nothing extra, they make less.
> 
> I don't get how folks think that businesses will raise wages and not prices. Non-tippers are getting a free ride...they should be happy and enjoy it!


Actually, there have been studies done in the serving industry that shows the level of tipping is very poorly correlated to quality of service. Mostly there is a tipping standard that operates in a given area or sector, and that is the biggest determinant of tip amounts.

And yes, prices should go up if that is the actual cost of the service (which includes the cost of wages). We, the consumers, are already paying this full price. It's just that it's hidden by this "tip" which is not a tip.



Minnewaska said:


> What about the owner of the small business themselves? Probably mortgaged their house to open the business. They aren't guaranteed an income at all and most don't actually make enough to justify what they invested in the business, even if they're profitable. I seriously doubt any local coffee shop owner is making much money. Their income is entirely based upon service level and quality. I don't see why that's so different for the worker. They should get a fair base wage, that I agree with. I also think a variable additional wage makes sense. If you work harder, longer, faster, smarter, friendlier than the next worker, you should earn more. Capitalism.
> 
> In the end, if we eliminated tips, added them to wages, raised published prices to include them, we all pay essentially the same and the workers as a whole get the same. There is just no differentiation for better workers. Marxism essentially.


Minn, I have no idea how you go from the concept of actually disclosing the real price of a service, to marxism. Bizarre . As for your mom and pop, it sounds like they are poor business people who should go out of business -- isn't that capitalism?



MarkofSeaLife said:


> First person from north America who grasps this concept.
> 
> Funny thing is the reality of underpaying staff, lying about the menu(etc) prices, reduced staff benefits etc is totally illegal in most countries.
> Sure, chuck a tip down for good service, that's legal most countries, but not the rest of it.


+1


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## Yamsailor

One additional point as I was discussing this very issue with one of the owners with whom I work. He pays me well because as he puts it: "I do not demand my captains to provide excellent service, however I do expect it." In return this owner treats me very well. I happen to agree with this owners philosophy.

Given the way we run the business we attract clientele that appreciate HOW we run the operation so we often do get tips as well as referrals.

Bottom line--if you don't cut corners, have nice boats, are customer focused and provide very personal service, you will probably attract the type of clientele that appreciate what you do for them.



Yamsailor said:


> Speaking as someone who works in the industry I will say the following:
> 
> 1) I never expect a tip from a particular customer, however if I never received a tip, I would think twice about working in that particular situation--for many reasons;
> 
> 2) I think it should not matter whether your captain is the owner of the vessel or not the owner of the vessel. If you are very happy with the service you received, then I think it is nice to show it---in some form;
> 
> 3) Tipping is a way of saying "Thank You" for a job that exceeded your expectations and showing appreciation for how you were treated;
> 
> 4) When I receive a tip I usually say the following: "Thank you. Your tip is not necessary but is very much appreciated. I am glad you enjoyed your time sailing with me.";
> 
> 5) I am in a unique situation, the owners with whom I work pay extremely well for the work that I do because I always go above and beyond what is expected from most Captains with my level of license and experience. These owners do not attempt to be the lowest (nor the highest) priced service providers. The owners view is, and this is verbatim: "if I can not pay you what you are worth, we will not work in this business." So I do not depend on tips for the majority of my remuneration--a lot of others captains in this industry consider tips a substantial portion of their remuneration.
> 
> 6) I think 30% of the Captains are probably in the same situation as me. The other 70% get compensated way below what most of them are worth. Your average charter Captain in the Caribbean gets paid $150/day (US Dollars). With the exception of one or two organizations in the Caribbean (because I know them), I would not Captain a charter boat for a week for $1050 ($150/day x 7 days). $1050 (US Dollars) is little pay for having the responsibility to keep 4-12 lives safe not to mention a vessel worth $500,000-$1,000,000. I have trained long and hard to be a professional captain and I will not devalue myself by thinking someone is doing me a favor by letting me sail them around the caribbean for a week while thinking I am just a nautical bus driver. Remember, you are paying the captain more for when things go wrong than when everything is working out well. The skill pays off if a problem occurs.
> 
> Happy New Year!


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## MarkofSeaLife

eherlihy said:


> I have said this earlier; the correct term is "gratuity." One should be offered any time that you would say "thank you" to a person that provides you with a service.


"Should" becomes mandatory. then its not a gratuity nor a Thank You. 

Don's daughters $184 for 4 hours menial work shows how a tipping culture is disastrous for the greater economy. In the USA there's many highly educated adults doing these highly paid menial jobs. Not only are they forcing lowly educated, or capacity, people from employment they could be satisfactory at, the highly educated are not doing highly educated jobs.
As we know medical researchers get paid crap but they are the ones saving the world. We can't have situation where we miss the cure for cancer because the scientists are flipping burgers for $45 per hour.

(I am not talking about students paying their way through uni.)

Mark


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## RobGallagher

MikeOReilly said:


> Actually, there have been studies done in the serving industry that shows the level of tipping is very poorly correlated to quality of service.


No one is forced to tip. I worked for tips for years and there are times when I do not tip. There are times when I tip more than the expected amount.

Some people feel powerless because they have a hard time saying no. Their are frustrated with their own shortcomings...or they never worked for tips.

People who feel angry because they are going to tip someone who did nothing should nicely tell them why you are not tipping or tipping less.

"Normally I tip at the fuel dock but the other attendants take my lines, offer me a pump out, and help me cast off instead of playing candy crush. Have a great day and have a serious talk with your parents before they co-sign those student loans. Explain to them that Dad might be right when he says you are not really the go-getter Mom thinks you are."


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## MikeOReilly

The intro from a recent research paper on tipping: *Restaurant Tips and Service Quality: A Weak Relationship or Just Weak Measurement?*

"Restaurant tips are supposed to be an incentive/reward for service (Lynn & Graves, 1996). However, this supposed function of, and motivation for, tipping has been challenged by empirical research. A recent meta-analysis of 14 studies involving 2,645 dining parties at 21 different restaurants found that, on average, evaluations of service quality accounted for less than 2% of the variability in tips expressed as a percentage of the bill (Lynn, 2001). This weak relationship suggests that equity motivations are weak in the commercial exchanges between servers and their customers and that tipping does not really function as an incentive/reward for service."


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## dvharman

Here in Alaska a a charter Captain my wages were around 4,500 per month for 4 months. Not horrible money for a young guy back then but not great. Tips equaled my Salary easily so thats what made the long haul every summer from Costa Rica to Alaska worth it. I have lived here year round since 2010.


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## robert sailor

Couldn't agree more with your opinion Mike. Tips and the peer pressure to pay these tips is simply the training certain sectors of our society gives us. Simply no different than teaching the masses to pump their own gas at self serve stations or more recently new training courses in checking through your own food at a super market or hardware store.


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## Minnewaska

MikeOReilly said:


> The intro from a recent research paper on tipping: *Restaurant Tips and Service Quality: A Weak Relationship or Just Weak Measurement?*
> 
> "Restaurant tips are supposed to be an incentive/reward for service (Lynn & Graves, 1996). However, this supposed function of, and motivation for, tipping has been challenged by empirical research. A recent meta-analysis of 14 studies involving 2,645 dining parties at 21 different restaurants found that, on average, evaluations of service quality accounted for less than 2% of the variability in tips expressed as a percentage of the bill (Lynn, 2001). This weak relationship suggests that equity motivations are weak in the commercial exchanges between servers and their customers and that tipping does not really function as an incentive/reward for service."


Does this study only research the actual tip itself or the amount of work that is incented, when there is variable compensation? For example, the dock hand is paid $10/hr plus tips, when he takes a line at the dock. If he hustles, he will get a tip from multiple boats. He's not required to. In fact, it's okay if he just leans on the broom and cleans the ramp at the $10 per hour. On the other hand, productivity is rewarded, if he grabs one and sprints to the next. Same goes for wait staff that can coast with one table or sprint with two or three and make more money per hour. The variability of tipping per table is not as much a factor, as being rewarded for productivity. Restaurants know to give their best wait staff more tables, as everyone look better.

My Marxist comment was a reference to his mantra "from each according to their ability", which does not differentiate compensation to those willing to work harder. That make sense? Not trying to get in an argument.


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## MikeOReilly

eherlihy said:


> ...Personally, I would FAR prefer to receive $30 per hour, so that the school and I would split the proceeds for teaching ONE student and no tips. If the class has two, I'd receive 25% of the gross, and if full, 12.5% of the gross. But, that's not the way it works. *and there would be no incentive for me to try as hard as I do* (as one example; I leave home 2 hrs before class starts so that I'll be there on time, and so I can get the boat ready for class). There are no other schools in the area. If I want to teach sailing at this school (two jobs at which I excel), my choices are either; teach for them at the rate they pay, or not.


Good example eherlihy. Shows how the real world works. One comment on the bolded part though. I hate to keep mentioned this, but research into this question shows that money is actually a fairly poor motivator of performance for "professional" tasks. It ranks way down the list. Given this, and given what I infer of your character eherlihy, I kinda doubt that you would suddenly become a slacker if your compensation changed to a more fair model.



eherlihy said:


> I get it; someone has to foot the bill for the school's owner's Lincoln, and multiple high-rise condos.
> 
> "Trickle-down economics," however, is a lie.


Exactly. And to your point, and the comments about prices having to go up if workers are actually paid a fair wage, the other option in some cases is for business owners to take a lower profit level.



Minnewaska said:


> Does this study only research the actual tip itself or the amount of work that is incented, when there is variable compensation? For example, the dock hand is paid $10/hr plus tips, when he takes a line at the dock. If he hustles, he will get a tip from multiple boats. He's not required to. In fact, it's okay if he just leans on the broom and cleans the ramp at the $10 per hour. On the other hand, productivity is rewarded, if he grabs one and sprints to the next. Same goes for wait staff that can coast with one table or sprint with two or three and make more money per hour. The variability of tipping per table is not as much a factor, as being rewarded for productivity. Restaurants know to give their best wait staff more tables, as everyone look better.


I don't know Minnewaska, I didn't read the whole study. I'm sure you can find it though.

As to your example, I'm not arguing against providing a gratuity for exceptional service. What I (and others) are pointing out is that "tipping" in North America is often not a gratuity for exceptional service, but has evolved into a way for businesses to underpay their workers. We, the customers, are expected to make up the difference with a "tip".

This model seems to be expanding. It has long existed in the low-level service industry, but is now spreading to all manner of services.


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## Don L

The problem with study tips and the quality of service is that for the most part you are studying a 1 time event between customers and servers. The servers for the most part know that not serving you well has little impact in the big picture to them (most probably tip anyway due to some misplaced guilt). And at the same time you tipping or not tipping as no impact on the service you already got. 

Now think what happens when a customer becomes a regular. During the summer my wife and I go to the same place almost every weekend, they know us etc. and the older staff even tell the newer ones about us when they are assigned our table. In this case we get pretty good service because we are known and consistent (and we don't accept poor service in silence).

Now think to how this works in the boating world. 

Back to my daughter example: her job is not even setup as a tipping type of position and she is paid the same as a non tip receiving job in the store. Until just recently you couldn't even add a tip to the credit card receipt for your food and drinks because of that and it was cash only for tips.


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## eherlihy

Mike,

You caught my lengthy post before I decide that we're not going to change the world (we are pissin' in the wind), and it did little to endear me to that employer, so I deleted it... You've also captured the salient points though.

Carry on!


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## dvharman

In Costa Rica its called IVA Impuesta and 15% automatically added to your bill. Talk about frustrating!!!


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## eherlihy

MikeOReilly said:


> Good example eherlihy. Shows how the real world works. One comment on the bolded part though. I hate to keep mentioned this, but research into this question shows that money is actually a fairly poor motivator of performance for "professional" tasks. It ranks way down the list. Given this, and given what I infer of your character eherlihy, I kinda doubt that you would suddenly become a slacker if your compensation changed to a more fair model.


What motivates me at both of the schools where I teach, and the people that I work with, is the evaluations and building my (their) reputation. For the duration of the class: I AM THE PRODUCT. I don't want people posting bad reviews or asking for refunds!


> This model seems to be expanding. It has long existed in the low-level service industry, but is now spreading to all manner of services.


This is true. However, I believe that it started in the low-skill, service industries (waiter, parking valet, coat checker, shoe shiner, hotel/motel maid, etc.)

If obtaining a merchant mariner credential is a low skill, then what is the value of the certification? In theory, sailing instructors and charter captains must have this credential (Dirty industry secret: the captain's license requirement is sometimes overlooked by every sailing school that I am familiar with. It is also why I show every class _my_ credential).

Reliance on tipping is now used by many business to justify low wages and higher profits. I learned when I received my BA in Economics that this is how and why unions get started.


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## MarkofSeaLife

New Ford only $20,000 (plus 40% tip because we pay our Mexicans crap...)


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## Minnewaska

MikeOReilly said:


> I don't know Minnewaska, I didn't read the whole study. I'm sure you can find it though.


I tried. All sites that I found with it, required a log in. I think we can infer from the title alone, that it only studied service quality and did not address tips as variable compensation for increased work.



> As to your example, I'm not arguing against providing a gratuity for exceptional service. What I (and others) are pointing out is that "tipping" in North America is often not a gratuity for exceptional service, but has evolved into a way for businesses to underpay their workers. We, the customers, are expected to make up the difference with a "tip".


If it's as commonly expected as you say, and it probably is, then the open market value of getting fuel at the dock or a meal served to you, includes the cost of the tip. Otherwise, you wouldn't buy it. Therefore, prices can and should be raised if tips were theoretically outlawed. I'm not taking your input to suggest they should be outlawed, I'm only make the economic point that the tip cost is already in the consumer's demand equation.

As for the snarky comment that a mom and pop that doesn't make sufficient return on what they invested should go out of business, you must favor the shuttering of most of them. Most small businesses invest hundred of thousands, some invest millions, just to open the doors. Then the pay themselves a reasonable salary, for the work they actually do, but never get any return on the investment. Their investment should earn a risk return, just like when you buy a stock or put money on deposit. In fact, the entrepreneurs is riskier and, therefore, deserves a higher return.

If find it insulting to these entrepreneurs when there is an assumption that they make too much. I know many who had to go for periods making zero, in tough times, while still paying their employees. Marinas and restaurants alike.



> This model seems to be expanding. It has long existed in the low-level service industry, but is now spreading to all manner of services.


What have you seen it expand into?


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## MikeOReilly

Minnewaska said:


> If it's as commonly expected as you say, and it probably is, then the open market value of getting fuel at the dock or a meal served to you, includes the cost of the tip. Otherwise, you wouldn't buy it. Therefore, prices can and should be raised if tips were theoretically outlawed. I'm not taking your input to suggest they should be outlawed, I'm only make the economic point that the tip cost is already in the consumer's demand equation.


Yes, I think you're right. The consumer is already paying the full price, so raising the official cost of a service to accommodate what is now being paid by the "tip" should have no real impact. It might, however, change the dynamic between employer/worker. It would also give the customer a clear price for the service they're buying.



Minnewaska said:


> As for the snarky comment that a mom and pop that doesn't make sufficient return on what they invested should go out of business, you must favor the shuttering of most of them. Most small businesses invest hundred of thousands, some invest millions, just to open the doors. Then the pay themselves a reasonable salary, for the work they actually do, but never get any return on the investment. Their investment should earn a risk return, just like when you buy a stock or put money on deposit. In fact, the entrepreneurs is riskier and, therefore, deserves a higher return.


I didn't mean to be snarky Minn. But I don't really understand this thread in your comments. What does this have to do with tipping? You seem to be presenting a scenario of a non, or barely viable business. In a capitalist economy don't these kinds of businesses fail? As for who deserves a higher return, I'd certainly side with a small entrepreneur, but again, I don't understand what that has to do with tipping.



Minnewaska said:


> If find it insulting to these entrepreneurs when there is an assumption that they make too much. I know many who had to go for periods making zero, in tough times, while still paying their employees. Marinas and restaurants alike.


I never said anything about anyone making too much. I did say one option towards paying workers a fair wage is for business owners to accept lower profits.


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## Minnewaska

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes, I think you're right. The consumer is already paying the full price, so raising the official cost of a service to accommodate what is now being paid by the "tip" should have no real impact. It might, however, change the dynamic between employer/worker. It would also give the customer a clear price for the service they're buying.


First, thank you for the civil conversation. It's refreshing around here.

I'm not following what is unclear about what something costs now, if it's already entirely obvious one needs to add a tip. A restaurant meal is the price on the menu, plus a tip.



> I didn't mean to be snarky Minn. But I don't really understand this thread in your comments. What does this have to do with tipping? You seem to be presenting a scenario of a non, or barely viable business. In a capitalist economy don't these kinds of businesses fail? As for who deserves a higher return, I'd certainly side with a small entrepreneur, but again, I don't understand what that has to do with tipping.


The relevance is that the business owner does not magically have the extra funds to increase wages and accept lower profits. They are often under paid for the investment they've already made to open the doors.

Maybe a fictitious scenario to make my point. I could get a job that pays $1 per hour, or $2,000 per year. Instead, I take $100,000 of my own money and open a business, buy equipment, signage, downpayments on rent, etc. In that business, I pay myself $2000 per year. I have a job, I'm my own boss. What goes unnoticed, or appreciated by most, is that I could have been earning interest on that $100,000 that is sunk in my new business, but often don't. I would be better off working for someone else and keeping my money invested. This is the dynamic of many/most very small businesses. There is no extra money lying around to raise employee wages.

They can, on the other hand, raise prices. I get the argument made by those that prefer that outcome. Pay the same every time, period. It is easier. I counter argue that it removes the opportunity for the hard working employee to earn more than the slacker. The hard worker will accommodate more customers and make more in the process. If they are all paid the same wage, albeit higher, then increased productivity is not rewarded.



> I never said anything about anyone making too much. I did say one option towards paying workers a fair wage is for business owners to accept lower profits.


How do they accept lower profits, if you're not saying there is an excess that makes that possible? I don't follow the math.


----------



## twoshoes

Don0190 said:


> The problem with study tips and the quality of service is that for the most part you are studying a 1 time event between customers and servers. The servers for the most part know that not serving you well has little impact in the big picture to them (most probably tip anyway due to some misplaced guilt). And at the same time you tipping or not tipping as no impact on the service you already got.
> 
> Now think what happens when a customer becomes a regular. During the summer my wife and I go to the same place almost every weekend, they know us etc. and the older staff even tell the newer ones about us when they are assigned our table. In this case we get pretty good service because we are known and consistent (and we don't accept poor service in silence).
> 
> Now think to how this works in the boating world.
> 
> Back to my daughter example: her job is not even setup as a tipping type of position and she is paid the same as a non tip receiving job in the store. Until just recently you couldn't even add a tip to the credit card receipt for your food and drinks because of that and it was cash only for tips.


Great observation between the one-timers and regulars.

One of my first jobs as a teenager was pizza delivery guy. It was good, honest, non-skilled work. Minimum wage + tips + reimbursement for mileage. Not bad for a kid looking for nothing more than XBox money.

Tips as you can imagine were a big part of the picture. You'd be surprised how often you would have to count change back to a customer who must be oblivious to the concept of tipping, as they would have you digging through your little pouch for a dime, nickel, and three pennies if they handed you a twenty on $19.82 delivery.

I considered anything over a dollar a decent tip, and three to five bucks or more was a good one. This kind of business is where that gratuity will get you much more than just great service though if you're a regular as most people are with their local pizza joint.

Busy Friday night, got three stops to make, guess who's whose first and getting the fresher, hotter pizza?

An extra order of cheese sticks got made? Give it to whats-his-face over on Hillsborough Street. He tips good.

Got a whale that will tell you to keep the change after handing you $40 on a $31.48 delivery. He orders Buffalo wings every so often and as it turns out we just made a big order of them that called and cancelled. Sure hope he's hungry tonight when he orders his usual pizza....

Nothing to do with boating though. Never delivered a pizza to a boat slip.


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## Jammer Six

aeventyr60 said:


> Mike,
> 
> Don't squeeze that Looney too hard, you will get some poo on your fingers...


Lol. :laugh

I know several Canadians who are against tipping. Some of them are employers, some employees. All of them, however, will accept one.


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## MikeOReilly

Minnewaska said:


> First, thank you for the civil conversation. It's refreshing around here.


Ditto ... :2 boat:



Minnewaska said:


> I'm not following what is unclear about what something costs now, if it's already entirely obvious one needs to add a tip. A restaurant meal is the price on the menu, plus a tip.


Yes, I think we're agreeing here. The price already includes the "tip" which is not really a tip. So incorporate it into the price and pay the workers a fair wage. Done, and done.



Minnewaska said:


> The relevance is that the business owner does not magically have the extra funds to increase wages and accept lower profits. They are often under paid for the investment they've already made to open the doors.


I see the issue of a business owner being underpaid for their investment as quite different than the issue we're discussing here. If they are already underpaid, then they've made a poor business decision. Yes, immediately increasing the wages of workers will add an initial burden, but if it happened over time, or if it were mandated (not something I'd support), then business would adjust. Better still, if we'd not allowed this system to develop as we have, and as most other countries have avoided, we'd not be into this pickle in the first place.

Increase prices, reduce expenses, or lower the profit margin. It's the same dynamic all businesses face all the time (and this from someone who has run his own small business for over 25 years).


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## SVAuspicious

Don0190 said:


> But I really thought we were trying to talk about tipping in the boating world. Specifically people like line handlers, fuel docks, launch drivers.


I rarely see a line handler worth tipping. There are some I would tip to go away.

I don't tip fuel dock people when they hand me the fuel nozzle and I fuel the boat myself. If they fuel the boat and ask about water and pump-out they get a tip.

In full disclosure I tip directly based on service. If something isn't right I talk it over with management. My wife tips a flat amount regardless and just doesn't go back. I see my approach as paying forward to management (they can't fix what they don't know is broken) and future customers (who get a better experience). In addition to a tip I often talk to management about exceptional service. You should see the smiles I get back when I do that.



twoshoes said:


> Nothing to do with boating though. Never delivered a pizza to a boat slip.


There are some pizza places that won't at all. Many do.

I'd like to recognize _Rocco's Pizza_ in Annapolis MD who will not only deliver to a slip, but have delivered pizza to the end of dinghy docks for boats at anchor. They take it as a matter of course in Annapolis, although the franchised national chains in town do not. Also the best pizza this New York boy has found in the area.

Of course there is always Pizza Pi in Christmas Cove USVI...


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## Minnewaska

SVAuspicious said:


> I rarely see a line handler worth tipping. There are some I would tip to go away.


Agreed. I don't tip them all. However, in our current marina, they have been the exception to the rule and are almost all outstanding. One in particular could practically tie my boat up for me. I too have been in marinas, where they were a liability.



> I don't tip fuel dock people when they hand me the fuel nozzle and I fuel the boat myself. If they fuel the boat and ask about water and pump-out they get a tip.


Agreed, however, I find most do ask about water and pump outs. Actually, our will also ask if we want to fresh water flush the holding tank, after pumping. Further, I typically hand the empty bottle of fuel additive, a dirty oil absorb rag from overflow spitting, etc, to be tossed.



> Of course there is always Pizza Pi in Christmas Cove USVI...


I was very skeptical, when Far Cry told me of a pizza joint in the USVI (I'm also a native NYC guy). I love this place! Can't wait to get back.


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## Jammer Six

SVAuspicious said:


> There are some I would tip to go away.


We know some of the same dock staff.


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## RobGallagher

I still don't get it. Tipping is optional. Don't tip if you don't want to. If the joint adds on a service charge, it's usually posted on the menu, get up and go.

If every restaurant in town adds a service charge, then it's sort of added into the price...I mean some people will be fooled but I think everyone here can read a menu and do math.

I'm not being sarcastic, if you don't want to tip, don't tip. If it makes you happy to tip, then do what makes you happy. No one is going to wake up and say to themselves; Gee wiz, those guys on the internet have been right all along.


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