# Option: Catalina 36 and 38



## gknopp (Nov 11, 2000)

While Ive been primarliy older boats of the Sabre and Tartan group, Ive had some input that I should recognise the quality improvements Catalina has done in the past 5 years. I looked at a Catalina 38 at a dealer some time back and was impressed but dont see nearly as many as 36s for sale. I would in interested in opinions on these boats for a couple wanting to do occasional coastal crusing. My main concerns are ease of sailing by a couple, quality and future resale value. I would be looking at boats in the 1998-2001 vintage.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I somewhat disagree with your assumption that Catalina''s have improved in quality in recent years. It is my sense that they were improving for a while into the late 1980''s but I have been less impressed with what I have observed on used versions the more recent boats or after talking to owners of more recent models.

That said these are still good coastal cruisers. It is my sense that both Beneteau and Hunter do a little better job with quality control and warranty support. Catalina has a lousy reputation for not supporting warranty issues.

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gary: Over the last year we have bought a used Beneteau 381, a Used Cat 380 and a Hunter 356 and they all have failed survey. We utimately bought a Cat 36 MkII on the used market. My observations are that None is better or worse than the other. They are what they are production boats. 

My reasons for buying the Cat 36 mkII was Good resale Value (2300+ made, and hold value better than the others), We liked the layout of the 36 better for two people (we will use the table for 2 mostly so the salon was great for lounging around in), a huge 36 (Really 37+) and lastly easy to handle for 2 people.
With all this said the Hunter had better systems and the Beneteau fit and finish might have been better than the others. Couldn''t get my arms around the B&R Rig or the FRENCH look and storge limitations of the Beneteau. Good luck on your search.


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## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

I hate to agree with Jeff however I know of several Catalina owners that have uncovered, much to their "shock and awe", numerous quality problems with their boats. Just this morning I spoke with one of my friends who was forced to sell his C 400 because it was eating him up financially, repair after repair (mostly stemming from the original design and build quality) with little or no support from Butler and his henchmen. It is true "you do get what you pay for".


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## rogern (May 13, 2000)

Gary:
Rather than listen to a couple of blowhards, why don''t you go to the owners email lists and ask curent owners? I can''t think of anyone more qualified than owners of Catalinas to discuss their virtues and shortfalls. BTW, while I have nver owned a C-36, I am now on my second Catalina, and plan to stay with the family when I move up. Yes, they are "production" boats - the most successful line in the world. That should tell you something. 
JMHO


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

I have a 2000 Catalina 34 and my dock neighbor has a 1996 Catalina 36. We must be lucky in that neither of us have had quality issues. I had two small warranty claims in my first season (a faulty fuel tank gauge and a leak that discolored the sole - both were handled immediately by my dealer). I have corresponded and spoken in person with Frank and he is a very approachable man - but he is very busy. He and Gerry Douglas (the designer) have occasionally contributed to the Catalina list on Sailnet. I can only say that it is important to buy from a reputable dealer. My dealer (Navy Point Marine) checked over every system and function before I acepted delivery - and allowed me to keep it there for 6 weeks while we did shakedowns and got accustomed to her. Check out c34.org which is the Catalina 34 owners website. You can see that most problems are minor. The C36 has a similar site. I have found my 34 to be a robust and fast coastal cruiser. It wouldn''t be my first choice for a blue water cruiser, but where I sail the blue water cruisers are what we call "dogs" or "cows." 

Charlie Pearsall

PS I owned a Pearson 27 before the 34 and consider the boats comparable in manufacture and performance. I loved that Pearson, and I now love my Catalina.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gary, I purchased a new Catalina in 2001 and am very pleased. The boat sails competitively and is a perfect coastal cruiser. Though I have had no major commissioning issues with the boat, the dealer took care of everything I questioned, including replacement of one battery that did not seem to hold a charge very well- this in my 2nd season. In fact one of the primary reasons I purchased a Catalina is that owners consistently held the manufacturer in high regard to warranty issues - including items that were often out of warranty. I previously owned a ''high quality'' Najad 32'' that had a gorgeous wood interior and teak decks. Najad is making a bit of a comeback in this country, but I can tell you that while the boat was finished better in the details, long term maintenance became a nightmare. Parts are hard to find (everything is metric), teak decks screwed into the deck will leak - $25k to replace (after ~15 years), and they use a saildrive (aluminum) as many foreign boat manufacturers do - this will also need expensive replacement. Najad, HR and Malmo are all in the same class and many people admire these boats as I do - however, if you plan on long term ownership consider the expense of maintenance and support of the factory. As boats age people tend to prefer solid hulls (vice cored) and the comfort of a strong owner''s association. Also, it is interesting to take a look at resale values; the price difference between a Catalina, Tartan, HR and almost any other more expensive brand narrow considerably over time. Just something additional to think about. I love to look at Hinckleys and Morris yachts - but if you factor in maintenance, features and price it is very hard to beat a Catalina.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I also must be one of the few, lucky Catalina owners. I just moved up from a Cat 30 to a 350, and I don''t recall any hardware/technical issues with either of my boats... My local dealer has also been excellent!! Guess some of us aren''t bright enough to know just how ignorant we really are??


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gary,
Catalina does an excellent job in quality with regard to price. It''s not a Hinckley and your not paying those prices.

I have a 2001 C36 have I found the build quality to be excellent. This is a production boat that in my opinion offers the best value for the money by far.

I''ve looked at Hunter,Jeanneau,Beneteau and some others, There are good and "less good" points to all these boats but in general terms they rate pretty high on the value scale.

As for Jeff and co.. Don''t listen to people who have either no first hand experience or maybe no experience what so ever.

If you want info on Catalina’s ask Catalina owners, if you want some info on other boats ask the owners of those boats.

Most actual boat owners will tell you the honest truth about the boats.

As far as Frank Butler and Gerry Douglas are concerned… I have spoken to those men several times both at shows and on the phone, and you will never find a better group of people to work with. Try calling the president of Beneteau and see how far you get…

Regards,
Chris


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Just for the record, my opinion is based on comments made by well over a dozen new Catalina owners who have bought Catalina''s in thr last 10 or so years. Some of these owners have been positively despondent about the kinds of quality control problems that they encountered right from the factory and the near total lack of support from the factory. 

One of these owners graphically told me that he had sold a comparatively new Catalina and purchased a Beneteau in disgust with Catalina build quality and warranty support. He described the warranty covereage with Beneteau as being amazingly comprehensive and easy. He decribed an absolutely nightmare like warranty process where the dealer would tell that some remedial action was covered under the warranty only to have the factory turn the dealer down on reimbursement and the dealer have to cover the repair or more often than not insist that the buyer agree to pay for the repair and then have the buyer try to get reimbursed by Catalina. This owner personally called Frank Butler about the issue and described his conversation with Butler to me in terms that suggest that Mr. Butler was frankly abusive and antagonistic toward him. (I realize I only heard one side of this arguement.) I would dismiss this as a single case if I had not heard almost the same type of story consistently over and over again with other Catalina owners. 

When this issue first surfaced I began asking owners of Hunters, Catalinas and Beneteaus about their warrantee experiences. The Catalina people consistently described long and comparatively serious lists of problems and lack of warrantee support especially as compared to the other two companies. 

I do have a little direct experience with Beneteau warranty claims in which Beneteau split the cost of replacing a forward hatch on a boat that was out warranty because they said that they had seen the same problem with that hatch on other boats. I have also had some direct experience with Hunter and have watched reasonably good support. 

I am just not seeing or hearing that kind of support out of Catalina. And when you have someone selling a boat with becasue he cannot overcome a long list of build quality issues, that lemon is out there on the marketplace and it is the next owner that has to deal with the problems. 

Several years ago I had a friend who was in the market for a 38 to 40 footer. He and I went through a whole series of 10 year old Beneteaus, Hunters and Catalinas (He ultimately bought a Beneteau First 38s5). After a while it became stunningly obvious that of the three, the Catalinas were just not holding up as well as the other two builders. Perhaps 6 years ago I was a strong supporter of Catalinas. Of the big three they seemed to offer the most boat for the dollar, but as I have spent more time with Catalina owners, and onboard Catalinas, I now see them as the poorest choice of the three. That said there are models of both Hunter and Beneteau that strike me as being not as good as other models withing their respective lines.

Look if there are Catalina owners that have better warranty experiences or who have been through the same kind of negative experience, let them post here. I realize that Catalina sells a lot of boats and a dozen or so owners is a very small sampling but the story was so consistent that I have to believe that there is some truth in it. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Gary,

You should *really* say go back through the archives and you will see a LOT of positive comments on Catalina and especially the C36 from many boaters. When I bought mine used (its a ''99 model) it wasn''t on the market long. The resale value is great and I could easily sell my boat and get around what I put into it (how many boats can you say that about !!). They have made over 2200 and they are still coveted, and for a good reason. They are well designed and well balanced boat with an excellent layout. No boat is a perfect boat, it all depends what its going to be used for. I think the C36MKII''s is one of the best Coastal cruisers out their under $220k for me. Yeah there are other boats that are very nice but at 2 times the price. (And others I am not happy with the layout) Maybe the teak joinery is not that of a Hinckley but the money is well spent on the important parts of the boat..... these are very solid and safe .

Are you looking to purchase this new or used ? If used then everything that follows is moot, but with all due respect to Jeff, as he said his contact was a "very small sampling" There are literally Tens & Ten''s of Thousands of Catalinas out there and the experience he relays is not consistent with the huge majority. I''m sure there will always be some unhappy people. I am sure Rolls Royce get a few when they sell a Bentley too. The odds always are not 100%. But anyone that knows *anything* about Catalina knows that if they aren''t satisfied they can call Frank Butler (Founder/Owner) and get satisfaction.....not too many boat manufacturers out there where you can say or do that. There are literally hundreds of stories a year where I here that repeated, but I bet if someone was abrasive, then Frank probably was too (I will not say Frank is perfect, but he really cares about his boats) Jeff related a story of a "Beneteau warranty claims in which Beneteau split the cost of replacing a forward hatch on a boat that was out warranty" , and I can personally relate getting Catalina help with an engine/tranny problem on my boat that was neither in warrantee and I even bought my boat used ! I guess its all how you go about asking for assistance, if I called Frank and was arrogant I bet he wouldn''t give me satisfaction either. 


They have tried and true designs, using tried and true construction methods.....saying the quality has gone down is in my mind fallacious, I have monitored these boats for 10 years and look at older ones often. The construction quality is pretty consistent and good . Actually I think things get better over time. For instance, just one example, Catalina recognized that the design of the shroud chainplates could be better and unless caulked well and monitored might leak a bit (nothing major, just a nuisance). I have noticed that they have changed the design of the chainplates as they have done so with MANY of their systems. They are constantly taking owners inputs and entering it into their final product.

Maybe Jeffs comments are because they are not using the high tech exotic materials with carbon fiber, kevlar, exotic sandwich core and other materials and construction methods that he is very fond of. Yes they can be a wonderful thing if used on an America Cup or custom boat with the associated costs. And I will grant you, having a lighter boat is a wonderful thing for sailing. But beware....exotic materials and construction methods if not done properly and well can be a MUCH bigger danger risk and money pit. ( just look at all those wet - delaminating cored hulls out there on the market today... For an idea read here http://www.yachtsurvey.com/core_materials.htm ) Someday if I had all the money in the world, I''d get a cored hull with the best construction designs & methods , but there is something to be said for a solid glass hull in its simplicity and *more* importantly its repair when any kind of water incursion does happen (and chances are it will - its just a matter of time)


I know more than a handful of people that cruise the C36 extensively. There is one guy (Alaskan Po Boy) that has sailed his from Alaska down the pacific and up the Atlantic on the east coast. Its a great boat with a design that really hits "the sweet spot". Not too much to single handed even in heavy seas and with the help of an autopilot its even easier (BTW my ''99 C36 only has a Raymarine 4000 autopilot which is undersized and the boat still handles heavy weather fine -- which tends to lead me to a fairly well balanced boat). With that said, I am sure there are problems that people have had over the years, any boat needs to be inspected. And in the same vein I heard about a steering or rudder failure occurring to a C36 on a voyage, but the boat was almost 18 years old and wasn''t checked --- any boat that is not inspected and maintained can have that happen even Hinckleys and Little Harbors.

I have a friend that entered his C42 "La Buona Vita" in the "Caribbean 1500" this past fall that sails from Virginia to the BVI''s. There were 46 boats entered, all makes and models -- Hunter, Tayana, Valiant, Shannon, Island Packet , Cape Dory, Dear foot, and Catalina, etc. There was some very heavy weather and this Catalina 42 came in 4th place *Overall* !!! She did great and its a great testament to the C42 (which is very much like a big C36) But what is even more telling is what happened to some of the so-called expensive blue water boats. An Island Packet and a Tayana (one of these boats was new) and others had to withdrawal from the middle of the race and be diverted to Bermuda, one had a deck fitting brake and the other had a major rudder problem. Now I wouldn''t try and infer that the Island Packet and a Tayana are not good, well built boats, because they are ! But this is just to illustrate that problems can happen to ANY boat and by inferring that Catalina is worse is incorrect . 


Bottom line I am VERY happy with My 1999 Catalina 36MKII and the only reason I would change boats was if I got my hands on more money and could purchase a bigger boat....


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## mattjo (Oct 22, 2000)

Gary,

As you''re seeing, current C36 owners are a satisfied bunch. If you haven''t already, make sure you go to the C36 owners site - www.catalina36.org. Note on that page some warranty issues that Catalina and it''s suppliers have satisfied, but also that the Owners Association has assisted and advocated for.

I bought my C36 last spring and had a great year with it last year. I too searched this board for advice and feedback, as well as soliciting advice from current owners. Also, Practical Sailor did a review of the boat in the past year or two, which I suggest you get. I was glad to read the feedback of Jeff_H, since it always is good to try to find the good and bad prior to purchasing, and he led me to ask other questions, which have been more than satisfied. I believe he is biased based upon what he knows, but I don''t think his knowledge is representative of the overall. I don''t think he harbors any ill will, but does possess a bias. Denr is just plain negative and unproductive. I''d dismiss any comments he has about anything, good or bad.

Best of luck to you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gary--about a year ago one of the magazines, SAIL, I believe, did a little piece on the prophets of doom that seem to be in each marina, telling other sailors that everything they are doing is wrong. I loved the piece, because it is so true. And message boards are no exception.

We have a Catalina and find her to be very comfortable to sail. I am not much help to my husband while underway... Yet he can manage all 36 feet of her pretty much single-handed. I take the wheel just occasionally, mainly because he wants me to get more comfortable in case a bad situation ever arises. And help with docking. Accomadations are great for us, and a couple of teenagers. Cockpit is fantastic, and the swimming platform. I can easily see it doing the sailing you describe in your original posting. Warranty work is done as needed, sometimes not as quickly as we want, due to logistics at the boatyard, but the truly important stuff was addressed within a day or two. A used boat is only as good as the survey. And any boat will only age as well as you treat her...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

There appears to be a small group of people writing in this site that have obvious problems with Catalina. While you all have a right to your feelings, I must disagree with your findings. I purchased a new 2002 C-400 last year and while I''ve had more than my share of warranty issues with the boat, and have had some "interesting" conversations with Gerry Douglas (chief designer), NOT ONCE has Catalina failed to respond to one of my warranty repair requests. Ask my dealer (Chesapeake Yacht Sales in Deltaville, VA), I AM VERY PICKY and even tho I suspect I was a pain in the butt at times, they (and Catalina) were responsive to each and every one of my concerns. They weren''t always fast, but fixes were made. Catalina even sent their roving warranty guy (Bill ...) to make some of the more difficult gelcoat repairs.
Although it took a while, Catalina even wound up repitching my prop to allow my engine to reach full rated rpm. Yes, that was a design "flaw" and wasn''t addressed until I forced the issue, but when Gerry Douglas got involved, they did some in-the-water testing and told my dealer to repitch the prop (BTW, if you have a Yanmar engined C-400 your prop has 2" too much pitch and should be reduced to a 18 x 12 to get your rpm up to 3800).
Every boat is a compromise and Catalina''s are no exception. As has been pointed out by others, Catalina isn''t a Hinkley or even a Sabre, but I continue to believe that for the money, Frank Butler and his people make the best sailboat on the market. 
Smooth Sailing!
Tim Leighton
S/V "Magic"


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

There appears to be a small group of people writing in this site that have obvious problems with Catalina. While you all have a right to your feelings, I must disagree with your findings. I purchased a new 2002 C-400 last year and while I''ve had more than my share of warranty issues with the boat, and have had some "interesting" conversations with Gerry Douglas (chief designer), NOT ONCE has Catalina failed to respond to one of my warranty repair requests. Ask my dealer (Chesapeake Yacht Sales in Deltaville, VA), I AM VERY PICKY and even tho I suspect I was a pain in the butt at times, they (and Catalina) were responsive to each and every one of my concerns. They weren''t always fast, but fixes were made. Catalina even sent their roving warranty guy (Bill ...) to make some of the more difficult gelcoat repairs.
Although it took a while, Catalina even wound up repitching my prop to allow my engine to reach full rated rpm. Yes, that was a design "flaw" and wasn''t addressed until I forced the issue, but when Gerry Douglas got involved, they did some in-the-water testing and told my dealer to repitch the prop (BTW, if you have a Yanmar engined C-400 your prop has 2" too much pitch and should be reduced to a 18 x 12 to get your rpm up to 3800).
Every boat is a compromise and Catalina''s are no exception. As has been pointed out by others, Catalina isn''t a Hinkley or even a Sabre, but I continue to believe that for the money, Frank Butler and his people make the best sailboat on the market. 
Smooth Sailing!
Tim Leighton
S/V "Magic"


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## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

For all of those Egyptian sailors on the DeNile here are a few facts about the C 400 Catalina that broke the bank:

Rudder installed on the wing keel boat was built for a deep draft boat, it exploded when hitting a reef in the keys, it was almost a foot lower than the bottom of the keel. Not my problem says Frank.

Tabbing of the hull liner came loose from the hull, cabin sole is spongy and squeaks annoyingly.

Countless sharp unfinished fiberglass edges have abraded wiring and plumbing through out the boat.

Strom hood plastic guides don’t flex with the hull and need to be replaced frequently.

Numerous keel stub cracks.

Tracks for the headsail cars are not long enough for a 100% jib.

Several stanchion bases have punctured the deck as they are not backed properly.

Tabbing for dual wheel pedestals have broken loose.

This is not negativity these are facts. I’m certain Catalina has built boats without defects however there seems to be a preponderance of evidence that something is amiss with their quality control program. Buyer beware.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have a 1984 Catalina 36 (yes, almost 20 years old) and have had superb support from the factory. I have spoken to Frank, Gerry and David Graas - they all treat me as if I just bought a new 470. They have spent time with me on the phone and in person at the factory. As on any older boat, I''ve had systems fail but the factory has supported me well beyond my expectations in repairs and upgrades. In short, I cant image a person not getting support from Catalina. I love my 36 and will certainly buy Catalina when I upgrade (probably the 42) in several years. This is mostly due to the support and feeling of "family" that I have gotten from the factory. I highly recommend a Catalina - and especially the 36.

Russ - C36, #206


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## CAlbertson (Nov 4, 2002)

You say "Catalina 36 and 38" These are actually very different boats not to be grouped together.

First off there is the new C380 which is a new design Catalina. In the Catalina line the "three digit" models are all "new look" designs while the two digit boats are more traditional "look" designs

The C38 is long out of production and only a few hundred were built in the 1980''s The C38 was more of a "racer" but today makes a good "preformence cruiser". If performance per buck is what you want hunt down one of these old boats. (The C38 will sail circles around any C36 and I''m saying this as a C36 owner) It is an S&S design with a hull shape and rig un-like any other Catalina but with construction details exactly to match a
1980''s vintage C36 or C30. There is an active C38 race fleet here (So. Cal)

The C36 has been in continous production from about 1983. with over 2000 sold. They have improved it many times with better systems, a walkthough transum and so on. However the "in the water hull shape and sail plans of all C36s are identical so they all handle the same. The C36 is an easy to sail, forgiving, traditional design boat for coastal cruising and even some low-key racing.

I own a 1985 C36. If you have any questions about it e-mail me at [email protected]

None of these boats have the performance of a J105 nor would I buy a C36/C38 if my plans were to sell the house and become a full time cruiser and take off to the South Pacific


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## lancesalmonsen (Mar 24, 2000)

Jeff,
I am a three Catalina boat owner, having owned a 22, then a 30 and now a 36MKII.
I wouldn''t have bought three of them if I had quality issues with the boat(s).
I have found them to be a quality boat and I have been very pleased with them.
I have had some warranty issues but I must tell you that Catalina has always responded in a positive way. 
When I asked to speak to Gerry Douglas, they put me right through to him. 
I have put my 36 thru some rough sailing up here in the Northeast and she has performed magnificently.
A very good friend of mine purchased a Beneteau 36CC at the same time that I purchased my Catalina. A year later his boat was still not completely commissioned. He had many problems dealing with Europe.
SO, after all is said and done, there are more than enough stories to go around.
But to single out Catalina as an inferior boat is not only unfair, it is untrue.
I can assure you that in my case, Catalina has made me three OUTSTANDING boats.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

denr, 

I find it difficult to believe that Catalina would ship a boat out of the Factory like that. For one wouldn''t it be noticed by the Freight people when it sits on the flat bed. Plus there are two rudders.....didn''t he notice them 1 foot lower?! What about at the marina, the guy blocking the boat would find it close to impossible with out having the rudder hit!?! 

Something doesn''t sound right in your story, do you have any pictures? I know that many Catalina rudders are about the same depth as the wing keel. (yes I will grant you that this is not conducive to running aground, but that is not that same as saying that a boat is shipped with a rudder 1 foot lower! ) 


What about the owner, I would notice that immediately? What kind of sailor friend do you have that didn''t notice that? I would find that next to impossible. Whether it was or not, what the heck is the guy doing hitting a reef? 

What I suspect is that the guy hit the reef and is trying to blame anyone but himself--- you my freind are only telling the version of the story from a skipper that ran his boat up on a reef. What you are doing is gullibly buying into your freinds myth and excuses. 

Many of your other objections like tracks for the headsail cars are not long enough for a 100% jib are probably true, but that is easily remedied and many people cutomize and modify boats to suit their needs. 

But when you say that this was "eating him up financially, repair after repair (mostly stemming from the original design and build quality) thats a bunch of horse-hockey !. For one, being stupid enough to run up on some reefs is NOT the blame of Catalina (maybe that is where his keel stub cracks came from !?!) and most of the other things you listed should not put one in the poor house when someone spends the kind of money he did buying that boat. 

I am not saying these things didn''t happen, but some are these claims are *very* suspect. There are just way too many inconsistencies in your posts. You often posts statements without knowing the "true" facts and so your ramblings are greatly diminished . All people need to do look back through the archives for proof.


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## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

Ha! Ha! Ha!, Wheweee!! This debate on the Catalinas is getting hotter than a June bug on Georgia asphalt,as they like to say here in the South.At the risk of putting my nose in where it doesn''t belong,(I''m good at that!) I''ve got to throw in my 2 cents worth. I''ve never been on a Catalina boat, but there are a lot of them at the club I belong to. These people are more dedicated to their boats than the dead-headers were following the band during their hey-day. That tells me a lot.Someone would stand a better chance of getting away with stealing the spouse, kicking their dog,or spanking one of the kids of a Catalina owner, rather than say something bad about their boats. As far as the remarks I read about problems dealing with management at Catalina over warranty issues, it sounds like they are a minority rather than the majority,which also tells me a lot. I have two service businesses,and I can tell you that the success of resolving customer complaints is directly proportional to the willingness of the customer to be satisfied. After several attempts to resolve an issue with one customer,I asked her what would it take to satisfy her. She told me I was too stupid to satisfy her. I asked her what she meant by that....;^) I''m looking to upgrade to a bigger boat soon. From what I''ve seen and heard, I wouldn''t rule out a Catalina boat. Peace!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

29 years on the water here ... 4 Catalinas (22, 27, 320 & 380 at present). Perfect? No. Value for the dollar? Absolutely. 
I have been very pleased with a) dealer support ... 3 different dealers over 29 years, b) quality of boat and c)resale/trade value. I have seen a notable improvement over the years in construction quality and standard gear used on these boats. As with any production boat, the owner has his share of responsibility with many finishing touches, but these boats are solid.


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## dmaher (May 13, 2003)

I have to tell you a story about Frank Butler. When my wife and I where waiting for the delivery of our new 1999 C380, a newly designed, larger fuel tank was going to be installed, starting in the boats with hull numbers just after mine. You could replace the old tank, with a new one, for a price. I complained about the size and fact that I was not getting the new fuel tank on C380 message board (C380 sail.net) and to my dealer. A few weeks later, late at night (around 9:30 PM EST) my wife answered the phone, and said it was for me, some guy named Frank. I told her that I thought it was a solicitation call and I did not want to talk to him. She insisted that I take the call. It was Frank Butler, explaining to me that they where going to install the large tank in our new boat. I think this story speaks for it’s self.

I sold a Caliber 28 and bought a new 1990 C34. At the time, I had a new Caliber on order and after seeing and exploring the a new C34, I could not justify the price difference between the Caliber 33 and C34. I am glad I did because the resell value of C34 held better than the Caliber.

I had A/C installed on my boat and the installer, gave me the thru hull core. It was an inch thick solid core. Low tech but it works. I just had a hull reading done, and was told it was one of the driest in the yard.

I friend of mine, who owns a Beneteau, his fourth, kept his boat next to mine. After hanging around and helping me with boat projects, finally admitted, he was impressed with how my C380 was built. In fact, he always admired my larger blocks, winches and sail traveler, he started to replace his blocks with Garhauers like the ones on the C380. 

I think these actions and actions of people buying 10,000s of Catalinas speak louder than the words on this board.


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## rogern (May 13, 2000)

No. Coming from you they are NOT facts, they are hearsay. If the alleged owner exists, bring him forward. He ought to be eager to tell his story. Otherwise, you are not only a liar; you are a poltroon, sir.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I would like to commend Jeff H for his courage. I’d like to say that I must be an exception to the rule here. I am furious about the treatment I get from Catalina.

I have constant problems with my fuel system, consistent loss of fluid from the refrigeration system, and nagging problems with my steering.

I have pointed these problems out to Mr. Frank Butler and his staff but no one takes me seriously. 

I have had to fill my fuel tank two times since I bought my boat last year, and no matter how much beer I buy the fridge always seems to be empty. The worst problem is my wife’s constant nagging about how I steer the boat. Maybe the third problem is somehow related to the second.

Anyway, I still think that Jeff has demonstrated steadfast courage in the face of such deafening customer loyalty. He should be admired for not fearing to look uninformed and narrow minded. Bravo Jeff. Stick to your guns. I’m sure that someone somewhere cares what you think.


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## rogern (May 13, 2000)

I agree; it is courageous of him not to allow facts to interfere with his arguments. This overarching fact remains: Catalina has built, and continues to build, the most successful line of production sailboats the world has ever seen - by several orders of magnitude.


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## pauln (Apr 28, 2003)

Was so impressed with the way that Frank Butler personally took care of the problems I had with my C25 that I bought a C28MKII. This winter I took delivery of my 3rd Catalina ..... a new 350. All this would have been impossible if Catalina''s resale value hadn''t been so strong. Based on my experience and enjoyment, the market''s support of Catalina is more than justified.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Only one thing worse than a company that builds bad boats, is the kind of disingenuous behaivor that is taking place here. This is not the first time that this topic has come up. In past discussions there have been a predominance of new Catalina Owners that have come forth with problems. It really surprised me that this time there was a large bunch of Catalina Owners that had no problems but did have a very similar writing style. I have participated on this bulletin board for nearly five years now and when I see a name that I don''t recognize I often looke them up on the Member Directory to learn more about who they are. 

Suddenly here in this one thread, there were a bunch of names that I did not recognize and when I went to look them up most of the names in this thread were not in the Members Directory. (Look them up for yourself. None of these names are listed in the directory: Barr, Tidetim, Rogern, KTMVGD, Mogul11,Delerious,GoNavy,PGW,CMHyland, Texasgal,Quida123,Randolf Camp, Dmaher.) 

So I ask myself how is that all of the happy Catalina owners suddenly appear on this bulletin board at the same time and that none of them show up in the Member directory? All that I can figure is that in the absense of real happy Catalina owners that had someone decided to fabricate a bunch of fictitious personalities in order to somehow create the impression there are whole lot of happy Catalina owners out there. 

NICE F*CKING TRY!

If the only way that you can win an arguement is by fabricating multiple blowhard personalities, you just have to wonder about the validity of the point. For the record, Ihave no idea why you think that Catalina is the most successful boatbuilder in the world. Hunter does more volume than Catalina and Beneteau Group dwarfs both companies combined. Beneteau has been in business nearly 80 years longer than Catalina.

So I repeat, over the past few years, I have spent a lot of time on Catalina, and Beneteau products and a bit less on Hunter products. Yesterday I asked a number of my surveyor friends about this question. I am really glad that *all* of you like your boats, but I still come up with the same answer, in the past 10 years Catalina has fallen behind the other two of the big three in build quality. You don''t have to believe me. Just go aboard a bunch of 10 year old Hunters, Catalinas, and Beneteau, or ask any experienced surveyor and then draw your own conclusion. 

Jeff


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

A poltroon? Why, them''s fightin'' words. A myopic dilettante perhaps, a web troll certainly, but a poltroon?

I imagine Denr is just cranky since AMF stopped responding to the issues he is having learning to sail his Sunfish.

Charlie P.

FYI Delirious is the name on the side of my Catalina 34. Doc # is 1099983, you can find me listed on the USGC registry. And as for being a fabricated personality - check the Catalina List or ask Sam Boyle. I''m an active, constructive regular (and a member of SailPerks). You stir up owners of the most popular boat manufacturer in the world and you''re surprised we come out of the woodwork? I''ve owned 11 sailboats in the past 22 years. One I built myself. Another a 1964 Thistle I restored to racing condition. What sailboat do you own, Jeff? Are you schitzophrenic as well as paranoid?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff,
I check out the discussions to find a little useful information every few months and do not take the time to write or register. Bottom line is that I find you one of the more opinionated people on the site - and normally well informed. However, some of the distortions that you continue to vent regarding the Catalina line have finally forced me to respond. I do not know what you sail - nor do I really care. I am surprised at the amount of time you are able to spend on this site. Makes me wonder how much time you spend on the water...bottom line is that we are all sailors and we do a disservice to folks who are looking to join the sport by posting misinformed opinions. To say that my post was fabricated is paranoia. I''ll catch up with you after the summer sailing season. I suggest you get a life.

"GoNavy" C390 Ralph Martens


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff--I know I exist. I have a feeling that Barr might actually be down the dock from me ... I guess on message boards we all have to take with a grain of salt everything that is posted. Even that YOU own a sailboat or know anything about boats. So please, don''t turn this into a personal diatribe, or use the profanity of your last posting. You said in a previous posting on this thread you wanted to hear from Catalina owners, well, here we are.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Texas Gal - I''m at Kemah Boardwalk Marina, E-Dock, slip 34. S/V Four Sail - my wife and kids love our boat and we''ll be out enjoying her for several days over Memorial Day.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I thought that it was you. We''re the 350 on the dock ( okay I made her a foot bigger in the posting, but hey, I think technically she is 36 feet) ... S/V Forever Young


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## rogern (May 13, 2000)

Just because I don''t feel compelled to put my personal info online, doesn''t mean I don''t exist.
Roger N
1984 Catalina 30, Lake Travis, Texas
1979 Bristol 22, Blue Hill Bay, Maine


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Just a note from one of the nonexistent, satisfied Catalina 350 owners from Deltaville, VA...


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## gknopp (Nov 11, 2000)

Wheeeewww.. I didnt mean to stir a hornet''s nest with this. Im finding that making a boat selection touches many ''religious'' issues with folks. Thanks to all of you who are expanding my perspective.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Looks like Mr Jeff threw a rock into a hornets nest. Maybe that was his intent. It appears that the aforementioned non-existent members are responding to Mr Jeff''s message. 

Given that I may or may not exist, perhaps my opinion doesn''t count either. I''m a happy Catalina owner. Very happy.

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gary-- I hope you find a boat you love, whatever the manufacturer. As stated in SAILING magazine "The world is fraught with problems-it''s time to buy a boat."


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Gary,

We rely on our sailboats and they become like friends to us. I talk to mine all the time. I guess some of us just get a little protective of our boats, and defensive of our choice.

One thing I''ve noticed - to the credit of the Catalina owners here - is that we''re not taking shots at other boat manufacturers. I like Bavarias, Benetaeus (except for the rope bridle traveller on some), and I only dislike Hunter for the way their styling direction has gone in the last dozen years - but that is entirely subjective opinion. I''m not wealthy enough to have a Nautor Swan and, for me, the Catalina seemed a sensible choice. Based on my experiences, I recommend them.

Good luck with whatever you decide on.

Charlie P. (I sail, therefore I am)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You know you could avoid all warranty issues like Denr has and buy a 30 plus year old boat. By then the boat has either sunk or should have all these issues ironed out.


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## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

So now, the Catalina debate has gotten into the name calling stage? Besides me learning some new words,I find no value in it ;^) Reading the posts today I couldn''t help not to notice what an ugly mess it all is.There are obviously two very separate camps on this issue. As I''ve checked out this board over the last year or so, I''ve learned quite a few things from some of Jeff H''s comments. It''s always amused me how people will ask his OPINION on different boats,and he always responds with his OPINION,regardless of whether it''s good or bad. When his OPINION is different than others, he''s been attacked on this board more than once.It amazes me that he still chooses to participate on the board and contribute. He stated his OPINION on this issue,and why he formed his OPINION.Others felt differently and stated their OPINIONS. I suggest it be left at that and the board move on.


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## cmcallaster (Aug 26, 2000)

I have owned two new Catalinas, a 34 MKII and a 36 MKII and have been pleased with both. And yes they are productions boats, but after going to boatshows and comparing with the other production boats we don''t even consider the others. I have owned Hunters, including a new 33.5. Feature for feature the Catalina is a better deal and I saw no quality differences between them, other than being dismassed a month after taking the delivery of the Hunter 33.5 because the dealer did not properly rig the boat. Both of my new Catalinas had minor glitches (so did my new Lexus) when we purchased them but they have always been handled promptly by the dealer (Dunbar Sales) and when I have contacted Frank Butler and Gerry they have been responsive, busy but responsive. The key is a good dealer because anything as complex as a curiser this size has the potential for problems. If I want flawless quality I would go to Island Packet and spend a $100K more for the same size boat - but I have to work for a living. I am sure horror stories exist for any boat, my bet is that one or two bad seeds are used to overdramatize the quality issue -- on any boat. Ask owners, they know the truth because they live with it. We have had our Catalina''s in heavy seas and cruised a lot with them and I am very happy. Be careful when analyzing comments to understand the  or number of the sample size, one really ticked off customer will dramatize a problem to the point where others are overreacting and using words like "henchmen" to make things look worse. Sorry for the long message, but go to the owners sites and post a question there. If you haven''t owned one, then everything is "hear say."


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## mattjo (Oct 22, 2000)

Amen Stede.

I am a very happy Catalina owner. In my search for a boat, I was happy to have bumped in to Jeff_H''s OPINION, which aided me in my due diligence. My diligence led me to discount his opinion.

This is no place for personal attacks. Those who express their opinions in a negative manner only serve to negate their opinions when viewed by clear minded people.

To Gary K - 
1) Consider all opinions here w/a grain of salt. It''s a bulletin board. You don''t know us.
2) If you buy new, find a GOOD dealer
3) If buying used, seek out current owners. Take the boat for a sail. Get a GOOD surveyor.
4) Get the Practical Sailor review. A good unbiased opinion.
5) Check out the owners group email lists and websites. 

Best of luck to you.


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## GordMay (Dec 19, 2002)

I wonder how may informed opinions have been discouraged by the personal diatribes that have been Jeff_H''s reward for spending the time to share some annecdotal information & his opinions?
Any discourse that does NOT elicit widely differing opinions, hasn''t much educational value.
Obviously not many "dialecticians" here.
Good bye.
Gord


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yea, it is a crying shame that the owners of these boats are countering a bunch of lies. If you were going to buy a ford would you ask a chevy owner''s opinon? I think not, just observe the way Calvin feels about the competition, he pees all over their logo. In this case not only does Jeff not own a catalina, he doesn''t even own a competitor. He just "sails on one". This is even less an informed opinion. Anyone can sit around docks and listen to gossip, which is typically negative. It has been said before and bears repeating, if you want usefull info, ask the people who own and use the product.

So do not ask if you aren''t ready to hear both sides, even if both sides are heated.

Gerry 
Catalina 36 owner


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## catalina36_592 (Feb 14, 2003)

Just another non-existent Catalina owner here. I looked for a boat for about 4 years before actually purchasing my ''86 C-36. For my intended use and budget nothing could beat it. I''ve been very happy with it and have had no problems. I''ve actually had several unsolicited offers on it that were 10K more than I paid. Not bad. It''s nice to know that when I am ready to move up to a bigger Catalina I should have no problem selling!!


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Jeff,

I have been a participant and contributor to this list for a while. I have come to respect your points of view and thoughts on the dynamics of boats. I have learned a few things from some of your posts and disagreed with other points. Your first post was fine, it was your one single point of view and thats ok. 

But you know what? With this last post YOU BLEW IT . 

The sailnet message board (like many others) becomes a forum for such a very, very small number of boaters. It becomes a place with a very narrow point of view and posters post in self-aggrandizement glory (you know what I mean - its the same at the CWBB - you are there too). I would dare to say that its the same 20-30 people posting over and over again. With one or two "newbies" a week to drop in and ask questions.

The same 20 posters does NOT, the boating community make ! That is such an unlearned, dangerous & myopic view. I dare say that the total posters of these boards amount to maybe .000001% of the total boating community. And to "assume" that these previous posters were not individual Catalina owners is dangerous and wrong ! So what if these people were not in the member''s directory.....who the hell cares? That member directory isn''t the social listings from Greenwich Conn. Its not important to be in there, except for the few that have no better use of their time and are computer savvy and care to do so.

I happen to belong to the Sailnet Catalina email lists (there are multiple ones) and I can say for a fact that every one of these posters are real individual Catalina owners & contributing posters over there. Jeff, thinking that the boating world begins and ends at this board (or the CWBB) is stupid ! And by doing so you are creating a homogenized vacuum of information of which you are becoming part of. Continuing in this vein only continues to atrophy knowledge and experiences, like a sailor that only sails in his small bay, never venturing out into different seas and conditions. 

And YES there ARE many, many, MANY happy Catalina owners out there, many more than the same few people that posted comments on here. So Jeff, you asked on your first post "Look if there are Catalina owners that have better warranty experiences or who have been through the same kind of negative experience, let them post here". Could it possibly be that you "laid down the gauntlet", so to speak, and asked for people with positive Catalina experiences to respond and you were not prepared for all the responses, in such a quick, forceful and resounding way? Could it possibly be, that perhaps, someone from this list saw your first request and posted it on the Sailnet Lists for comments? So Jeff, do not "assume" too much, it might get you in trouble! Do some research, go into all the Catalina Sailnet Lists and see who these people are. In my mind you need to retract your statement....you were "Stone Cold Wrong". (And the Catalina lists are still a very small percentage of Catalina owners -- there are many many more very satisfied that .)

Sorry, and this might bug you, but when it comes to positive Catalina experiences, you are out far numbered & your very small experience might be totally contrary to the other 99% of owners out there. Not saying that Catalina doesn''t drop the ball once in a while (It does), but your one comment and experience has to be put in perspective. 


Oh.....and one more thing you lose a LOT of credibility by advising someone to" go aboard a bunch of 10 year old Hunters, Catalinas" . Earlier in your posts you claimed that Hunter has improved its quality over the past few years (which I will tend to agree). But to say that a 1992 Hunter has better quality than a similar 1992 Catalina is a LAUGH !. If anything the early 90''s is when the worse Hunters came out, and its funny because I recall a lot of your previous posts saying the same thing.

Respectfully,
Tom


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## drynoc (Jul 17, 2001)

The invective on this post has gotten out of hand. It is entirely possible that JeffH is wrong about the Catalina situation as a whole, but it is also quite possible that he is among the most knowledgeable people on this site. He is asked frequently for his opinion on topics, and gives his opinion, nearly always stating that it is his opinion or based on his own observations. His biases are out there for frequent readers to see because he states them himself. None of this makes him a "blowhard" or any of the other names he has been called here. And no, I do not know him personally.


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

GordMay and drynoc,

If you investigate a bit closer, many of the "invectives" posted on this board towards Jeff were AFTER he claimed that these people that posted (incorrectly) were NOT real people, but rather a "fabricated a bunch of fictitious personalities", as he claimed -- he screwed up and he was wrong.

Maybe it was because all those real people took great umbrage at that elitist attitude. 

And back to your question Gordon " I wonder how may informed opinions have been discouraged" by the small few on this board that dominate this board by shear pomposity and incorrect, misleading and invective strewn posts (You know we could name a few....denr). As I said before, I don''t think Jeff deserves to be singled out and yes, of course, his opinions and knowledge are nice to have on the board. But as I see it it was Jeff who "cast the first stone". If you noticed it was Jeff that first said "NICE F*CKING TRY! ".....seems to me he owes all these people an apology for discounting their real and satisfied Catalina experiences.

The sad thing is I think that he will not use and gather this overwhelming information and use it in his future posts about Catalina and Warrantee issues and satisfied customers. But rather he will continue ad naseum with the same one perspective and story that has used over and over in the past.

Respectfully,
Tom


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Drynoc,

Just one small point. It was Jeff that called the posters "blowhards" (by saying these were "fabricating multiple blowhard personalities")

Not the other way around.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am the phantom Catalina owner of which Jeff of the phantom issue speaks in his assertion that we don''t really exist.

I sail C380 # 88 on SF Bay while he moans and complains and wishes he had such a trouble free boat.

Cheers


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## dmaher (May 13, 2003)

Jeff,
If you read my post, and I assumed you did, all I did was state the facts. I take offense that you thought I was a phanton Catalina owner. I can assure you that I am not. I have kept my Catalinas on the Chesapeake Bay and have enjoyed sailing them for over 13 years.


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## JDAM (Mar 31, 2003)

FWIW, My friend has a new 38 with a wing keel and standard rig. In moderate air its faster than the local Sabre 34. I find the boat very comfortable as a cruiser but I dislike the lack of feedback on the helm. In general the boat is very comfortable. Its owned by an outstanding sailor whos last boat was a ''like new'' Pearson 31.

There were some deck leaks repaired by the yard and paid for by Catalina w/o any problems.

My friend is very satisified with the 38 and thought of moving up ..to a bigger Catalina.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Just my 2 cents worth. Jeff is a blowhard but mixed in with his hot air is always a some truth and a genuine effort to contribute what he actually knows. He can''t help it if he sprinkles in some bull**it with it. At least he takes his time to contribute.
As for the old 38 ft Catalinas, those were built for offshore racing and when I bought my Heritage West Indies it was a tossup between the two.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I am writing to apologize to this Bulletin Board and to those poster that I insulted by saying that I thought they were fictitious. I recieved an email explaining my error to me. I did not realize that you could post on the Sailnet BB without appearing in the Members Directory. At the time that I got on the Sailnet BB (probably five or more years ago now), in order to post on the Sailnet BB you had to register and in doing so, Sailnet automatically set up your name on the Member Directory. That was how it worked. 

As I said yesterday I did not recognize most of the names of that were posting in that thread. When I went to look for these people on the Member Directory they were not there. Since I believed that you could not post on the Sailnet BB without being on the Member Directory I assumed they were fictitious personalities. I have seen this happen on other Bulletin Boards. Further as I read through the comments made by some of these 
people that I assumed were fictitious, there were several phrases that were repeated by quite a few of the posters, one of which is quite inaccurate, that made me think that this was just one or two people doing a dirty trick. I am clearly wrong on that assumption. 

I will tell you in all honesty that almost every owner of a new Catalina that I ran into told me almost the same set of warranty stories; glaring problems and a battle to get anything corrected. I will also tell you that I did not hear these kind of miserable warranty stories out of either Hunter or Beneteau owners, and in fact heard glowing 
warranty stories out of the Beneteau owners that I encountered. So I drew my own conclusions. Having now come to understand that this list of posters are not fictitious people and I am glad to find that this 
negative experience is not universal. It does change my opinion of Catalina some. If I have to summarize my current position it would be that the majority of Owners that I have personally met who had purchased a new Catalina had terrible warranty experiences but there clearly are a large number of Catalina owners out there who love their 
boats and have had excellent warranty experiences as well.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

A classy apology, Jeff. I guess all of us are apt to make incorrect assumptions now and then.

Now, let''s get back to overanalyzing the physics of sailing... 8^D


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Jeff,

Well said. I''m sorry, too, if I came up sputterin'' and swingin'' without regard to consequences or having consulted the archives. As you might have noticed, we Catalina owners are a tight bunch and fill ranks to help each other out. I know many second, third, and forth time Catalina buyers. That alone says something.

Come on over some time and have a sail and a beer on me. If the boat has a sail and someone gets enjoyment out of it - that''s good enough for me. Plop yerself on the settee and we''ll discuss the merits and misses at length.

Charlie P.


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## doubleplay (Nov 9, 2001)

I have been a member of this post for a long time and never seen a heated conversation like this before...
Jeff H is a long time member of this board and as far as I saw it, he was always trying to be helpful more than several occasions.I consider him a very knowladgeble sailor and a class act as he proved by his last post...
I also wish to see other members of this board come out and contribute more as they did on this occasion.No one or no boat is perfect...
Respectfully,
Al
S/V DoublePlay
Dehler 36


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Despite apparent superior knowledge, if one''s responses are mostly negative or typically include negativity about *any* subject and no matter what the intentions, many will take this as an attack on their own personal choice, their selection integrity.... Hence the ''foodfights'' versus non-current ''racing'' designs. 

Today its a bashing of Catalinas, a few months ago it was Island Packets, before that Beneteaus, etc. etc. etc. ... just about any boat that isnt usually raced in large fleets. Do you see a pattern here? 
One has to remember that the value of the advice given here is worth exactlly what you pay for. 

On this bulletin board, If Jesus Christ Himself was reported to win a single handed around the world single handed sailing event, I''m dead sure that someone would point out: that the boat was ''long in the tooth'', that Christ didnt have the pucker line on the leech set the way they do, that the PHRF numbers of the boat was the reason for the win and not the sailor''s ability, that the design is SLOW according to tomorrows standards, etc. etc. If Jesus Christ himself posted that a certain aspect or example was in His opinion the correct thing to do someone would have to add "and another thing....". No matter how perfect or valued the example, someone (we know who) will usually include some denegration, expose thinly veiled discrepancies, some personal bias, some broadbased generalized statement based on a very small sample of observation, etc. ..... Every elementary school yard has one. ... My father is bigger than your father, my car is faster than your car, You made a good choice *BUT* you shoulda done this ... etc. etc. etc. When apparent arrogance and ''ethnocentrism'' overshadows knowledge, the result is always the same. 

Which ''cruising'' design boat shall be next on the chopping block? Are those that dont or no longer care to race, have the fastest/stongest/glitzy-est boat in the world to be laughed at, shown the errors of their ways, exposed for thier abominably poor choices? 

Too bad this ''board'' doesnt have a kill file.


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## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

Yeah and what about those Tayana 37s, are they as good as a Fatalina?


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

You, on the other hand, are a real idiot.

They''re twice as good for three times the investment.

Charlie P.


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## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

Chucky P Cheese....calm your storm buddy, did you let your lithium script run out again. And are we still attending those anger management meetings every Wednesday night?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff--a big problem is that people are always ready to list their problems, never the things that go RIGHT in their lives (or boats) ...The type of sailboat that works for me and my family, cruising along, Mom having a margarita, well, it might not be for you. And truthfully, I don''t want to race, or circumnavigate ,so those boats aren''t going to work for me. 
Thanks for the apology, and lets all move on...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Jeff H and Denr,

You guys are a couple of clowns! It must be nice to have little or no life so that you can sit behind a computer screen all day and bash other peoples boats. Your wee wee''s must either be real small or your mommy didn''t teach you any self confidence (small D syndrome). What''s the matter did you over pay for your "quality" coastal cruiser! For at least a few years I have been lurking here and ocasionally posting (when I have something constructive to say). To sit there and crown yourself the be all end all "king" of the Sail Net B.B. is really funny and I have not been laughing with you these last couple of years but at you (not always, some times you know what you are talking about, but mostly you just bash everything). I have logged over 14,000 miles of sailing in my life (sailing before I could walk), my family or I have owned over 26 sailboats and numerous power boats, been reading sailing mags and have also been a lifelong study of boats. One thing I have learned is that "you get what you pay for" in boats is not always true. 

The following is a list of boats my family has owned or I have owned personally that we or I would never buy again. Will not buy again list--- J-Boat, Hinckley (Owned a very well built pilot 35 but lots of propietary components that Hinckley rapes you on as well as their maintenance also very very wet boats), Cape Dory (Andy Vavolitis is very nice and has good support but there were so many corners cut on my boat that I lost my shirt when I sold it (things that had been purposly hidden by previous owner so it would not kill the deal and my surveyor never caught them), Certain O''Day''s but not all (owned three different O''Days), Sabre (I owned a Sabre 28 and was treated so badly by the factory (which is 30 minutes from my house) that I cringe every time I see an owner of an older Sabre. They only want to deal with the rich folk buying the new boats! Caliber - the caliber we owned flexed so badly that the gel coat on the interior of the bow started to chip off and had numerous rudder problems! 

The list below is boats my family or I would buy again. Tartan - Had a great 27 in the early seventies very nice sailing and relatively dry for it''s day. Pearson - have owned two pearsons over the years a 30 and a 26 both great boats that sailed well and were virtually maintenance free. Island Packet - I don''t think I would ever buy one again if speed were an issue but the factory really stands behind their product. Morris - My dad owned a Morris 26 that was just incredible + Tom and Cuyler Morris are incredible to deal with. Not snobby like the folks down the road at Hinckley they would go out of their way to save you $20.00..etc.etc. Erickson - Had and Erickson in the late seventies. I don''t recall doing anything but painting the bottom on that boat and made money when we sold it! Catalina - I am now on my second Catalina and plan to stay with them for a for a long long time! I have finally found the right mix between price, sailing charactistics, ease of maintenance, room, factory support, resale value, and factory support. I, like you guys, always snubbed my nose at most production boats until I sailed on a neighbors Catalina 30. We bought one the next year! I sold that boat three years later and made $12,600.00 on it and only spent $3000.00 in upgrades! On top of the at my boat sold for full asking price in less than four weeks -$500.00 at closing for a new cutlas bearing found during the survey. When it came time to move up I was only looking at Catalina. We have had nothing but great times and great dealings with the folks at Catalina! Here are two real examples: I needed to replace my original prop shaft on my C-36 and checked with the local prop shop - 460.00 with coupling and a four week lead time! I called Catalina and they shipped me a new Stainless (Aquamet 22) shaft and faced coupling, from their in house machine shop, from CA to ME (plus they pulled my original 1986 build sheet to double check the correct shaft length) in four days for $135.00! I launched my boat on April 17, of this year and realized I had a small leak in my fuel tank. I called Catalina on Monday of this week and ordered a new tank kit. When I got home on Tuesday the tank was on my door step $329.00 (with sending unit, new mount cradles and all hose barbs shut off valve etc.)!!! I aready have the tank half installed and will be sailing by Saturday afternoon. What caused the leak? A stainless screw rolled under the tank and caused galvanic corrosion and eventually the pin hole..

By the way I am for real and not some made up Catalina owner. You can check out my web site if you don''t beleive me! http://home.maine.rr.com/halekai/

If you look closely at the above lists you will notice so called "great boats" listed under will not buy again and so called "cheap" boats listed under "will buy again". As for Catalina not supporting warranty issues thats a lot of hot air! Sure some owners probably called up ranting and raving and put the factory on the defense but I have had nothing but good things to say about Catalina. I got what I paid for a great coastal cruiser with incredible re-sale value in fact I have a buyer waiting for my boat when I''m ready to give her up and I should make close to (according to recent sales) $15,000.00. When I bought my boat it had been on the market for 48 hours!!
What do you guys sail????
-Rodd C.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

This suddenly seems to be a popular question around here. For the record I sail a Farr 11.6 (Farr 38).The 11.6''s are an early 1980''s era performance cruiser. My boat was built in South Africa and then sailed single-handed to Annapolis from SA. She has spent most of her life being raced hard. She works very well for my purposes but I would never try to say that the 11.6 is the ideal boat for everyone. I was looking for a fast, well built single-hander that sails well in light air and would work equally well as a coastal cruiser or going offshore as well and she easily meets my needs. 

I paid roughly the same price that you would pay for a Catalina 36 or 38 of the same age and condition. After 10 years of hard racing my boat sold for roughly the same price that it sold for new roughly 20 years ago. The Catalina 38 and 36 have roughly the same layout as the 11.6''s but have a little less room than the 11.6. The Catalina 38''s are roughly 5000 lbs heavier and the 38''s are roughly 3000 lbs heavier than the Farr. The Catalinas have a better layout for coastal cruising with a family. The 11.6 has a better layout for offshore racing or offhore cruising. The Catalinas carry a little more fuel and a lot less water. (I really would not mind having a bigger fuel tank.) The big contrasts occur when you look at construction details. The Farr does not have any liners except on the over head. When you open lockers on the Catalina 36, at the least on the more recent one that I was on, everything is a lot more finished looking than on the Farr where you are looking at the inside of hull painted out with an eposxy paint. The Farr has closely spaced hand glassed in longitudinal stringer and deep section transverse frames. This gives the Catalinas more headroom but the Farr a lot more strength and stiffness. 

The other big difference between the Farr and the Catalina is in their relative speeds. with a PHRF rating of 87 the 11.6 is roughly 60 seconds a mile faster than the Catalina 36 and 40 seconds a mile faster than the Catalina 38. The Farr also offers a more comfortable motion in a seaway. The motion comfort and speed were more important to be than the slightly greater comfort found in some of the production boats of that size and price. We each have our priorities. 

As to my time posting on BB''s like this one and getting a life. I have a very full life, I don''t need another one, thank you very much. In my life I am an architect with my own practice. In my spare time I serve on a variety of regional and local urban planning committees. I keep my boats at my home which makes getting out for a sail very convenient. I read a lot but watch very little TV. I do spend way too much time on the internet, usually surfing and posting over breakfast and before I turn in. 

In a good year, according to my log, I can be out on the water over a 100 days a year. Most years out there at least 75 days a year. I mostly race on other people''s boats and so I end up sailing on a lot of boats in a year besides my own. I enjoy teaching sailing and coaching, which puts me on a lot more boats. I like to help folks so I end up working on or sorting out a whole lot more boats. I typically sail around a 800 to 1000 miles a year which after 40 years of sailing adds up to a whole lot of miles, some offshore but most have been on the US east coast. I have designed and built boats both to my own designs and have worked for well known yacht designers.

And that brings me to why I spend as much time as I do on sailing bulletin boards. When I was growing up and learning to sail, I had a lot of kind help and advice from people who had been sailing for many years before me. To this day I still get a lot of new information from people kind enough to share thier knowledge, wisdom and experience with me. I am a strong believer in giving back the gift that has been given to me over the years by being helpful when and where I can. That is why I come here. I am not an elitist as charged. I am by very nature a relativist. I look at things in relative terms. When I comment on one boat or another it is in relative terms; relative to its price and purpose, relative to similar boats, and relative to the broader spectrum of boats that are out there. I make no claims except that my comments are based on my opinions and my opinion of boats is based on my own experiences and on conversations with owners of those boats. Frankly if I gore somebody''s sacred ox in the process so be it. If you don''t like my posts feel free to skip them or explain why you think they are wrong. And if someone can explain to me why I am wrong on something, that too is OK with me because that is also just another way for me to learn. I have nothing to prove here. I come here to be helpful and to learn and nothing more. I have gotten too old and too happy with my life to care who I impress or, to a much lesser extent, who I piss off with my opinions. 

Anyway, enough for tonight. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

I appreciate the stories people have related on here. And I think anybody looking at getting a boat will get some good information and I think its obvious that the vast majority have had very good experiences.

Will all due respect to Jeff. I think he said what he believed to be, from what he heard from some people he has met. I also believe that he might live near a lousy dealer that doesn''t know how to ''go to bat'' for their buyers when dealing with the Catalina Factory. (No boat comes from the factory perfectly). We have all heard so many good stories throughout the country from such great dealers that his post seems grotesquely out of place.

But most of all of his biggest complaint was post purchase support for new Catalina buyers in his area that, for what ever reason. (But I still beleive most people only hear from people that want to complain and you never hear from the other thousand satisfied new Catalina purchasers in that area)

But Gary was asking about a used boat - and if there were any kinks they would have been worked out by then. And at that point a Catalina is a great boat....at any price. Hell yeah I had issues. Leaking chainplates or opening ports, Doors sticking, blah, blah, blah.....minor stuff. These could have been checked a little better at the factory. But in my mind (and most knowledgable boat buyers out there) its not worth paying $100,000 more and I feel the few people out there STILL DON''T GET IT. Design, feature for feature, Size & Quality of Hardware and items included, etc. Catalina gets you more boat for the money....with or without the fact of whether a small few don''t get satisfaction from Frank.

I''ll state it again. The Catalina 36 is one of the sweetest Coastal Cruisers out on the market and I challenge anyone out there to show me a better one with the same features and sailing manners in the same class (I haven''t owned the other Catalina''s so I won''t comment on them like MANY of the people seem to do on Bulletin Boards. I feel talking to people who have one does not warrant as much weight in ones argument as someone that lives with his boat day after day, year after year).

Respectfully,
Tom S


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

No, Denr, I don''t go to anger management class, I go sailing. You should try it sometime; not just talk about it. we spent 65 days on the boat last year. 68 the year before that. And we''re in NY with a 6 month season. I confess I mostly day sail and weekend. I don''t need a boat with 150 gallons of diesel. It would get stale. I burned 5 gallons last year. I sail on the Great Lakes and Finger Lakes, so waste tankage capacity is more important than fresh water storage. I can''t discharge overboard. I don''t need self steering as I don''t go long distances without a watch anyway. Too many other boats. An electric autopilot is fine for me. I pay a fellow to come to our marina and he, my wife and myself raise and lower our mast twice a year for $65 in his labor. Catalina''s dual lowers and single spreaders make that much easier.

So, do I need a quarter-million dollar sailboat for my sailing requirements. Nope. I need a light cruiser that sails well in light to medium air, is cheap to maintain, has enough storage and room for my wife and I for up to two weeks of cruising. And a boat with manageable enough canvas that it does not require two middle-aged people to work so hard at it that we''re sore all the next week. I work for a small company and my boss about has an embalism when I ask for more than a week off at a time anyway, so most often my max cruise is 9 days. I actually prefer four day long extended weekends.

Would I sail it across the ocean? Not a chance. But I plan on retiring early and enjoying it more in a few years because I''m not dragging a financial ball and chain around. My 2000 model 34 foot boat will be paid off in another 2 years without forcing me to sacrifice or scrimp. I like that. I like that a lot.

I found the boat that suits my needs and I am very happy with it. Is it a little plain and production-boat Cloroxy. Yep. Not a scrap of wood above decks except the hatchboards. But that doesn''t make a boat sail any better antway. Does it have eye-popping cabinetry. Nope, just plain spartan versatility - though what is there is functional and quality teak or teak laminates. Could I justify paying $100K more for a boat like the beautiful Sabre 362 that might walk me in all conditions. Nope. But then, I don''t race and when I''m on the boat I''m already where I want to be, so there''s no pressing hurry. I could have picked up a go-fast powerboat for even less than my Catalina 34. I knew exactly what I wanted in a boat and had a realistic idea of my sailing and cruising requirements.

OK. Your turn to make fun of my name or whatever spins your little wobbly wheels. Or, you could debate like a grown-up and we''ll talk boats.

Charlie P.


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## meolsen (Apr 5, 2003)

Charlie - you said:
Could I justify paying $100K more for a boat like the beautiful Sabre 362 that might walk me in all conditions. 

What did you mean ''walk me''.

(This is admittedly OT, but I didn''t get that one...)

Mike


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Sorry. Beach Boys era expression. "Walk" as in "walk away from." In extreme cases: "walk away from like she was standing still."

Common usage: "On the downwind leg that J/40 just walked away from us."

Charlie P.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Charlie, 

Don''t waste your time with that witless wonder Denr, he is smegma. 
He has nothing to say of any worth and he knows it. That''s why his posts are, for the most part, brainless.

He is old and angry at himself and the world for the choices he makes. He won''t admit to many of his numerous sailing faux pas over the years. Denr when are you going to fess up with that boating accident and your trying to cover it up? Of course we know that you will deny it left and right on here, but some of us know the truth and how incompetent of a boater you really are. Just because you took forever and passed a captains test, doesn''t mean you aren''t a lousy boater and person.


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## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

Thank you so much everyone for sharing your life’s story with us, I''ve been on the edge of my seat waiting for this day for a long time. I would love to share MY life story with every one of you but as someone astutely pointed out, I don''t have a life! I just wanted all of you to know that in real life I am a Catalina dealer, and all of this rhetoric was concocted to whip up a Catalina frenzy so that you would all go out and by another Catalina. Ha-ha my plan worked flawlessly you lemmings!

Don''t believe everything you read on the internet!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Enough with the attacks on Denr. Alright... everyone knows he''s an "A" hole but he''s a damn funny "A" hole and I enjoy his comments without taking them too seriously.


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

OK. He''s all yours. I''m going back to the Catalina List. 

I thought at first that it was just a case of a regionally poor statistical sampling and Catalina had a bad showing in some region. Now I see that is not the case, but blindness caused by where he chooses to keep his head. My degree is in Education and Human Development, but it did not cover alimentary education. He seems to be happy enough in darkness, but I fear he may someday suffocate.

Oh well, you can''t reach them all.

Gary K (remember the original query on this thread?): If you still wish input on Catalinas you should visit the Catalina List on Sailnet''s Discussion Lists. That goes for anyone else, too.

http://members.sailnet.com/email_lists/index.cfm

See you all on the water.

Charlie P.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Read the last line in Denr''s post and then you will get it. I consider his role on this board to be one of making sure we don''t take ourselves to seriously. Things started to get a little self-righteous during this thread, so I think his dose of "reality" was probably needed.

If you are secure in your choice of boat because it meets your requirements, that''s great. However, once you enter a discussion on absolute comparisons, put your thick skin on because you are otherwise likely to get slighted. Absolute statements like "sweetest sailing 36 foot coastal cruiser" and "most popular production sailboat ever made" are going to get challenged when presented in a broad context.


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

((ahem)..

JWag. I understand what you are trying to say, but unless you haven''t been around for long or you just don''t see it. Denr''s posts are way beyond " making sure we don''t take ourselves too seriously" They are vindictive, mean spirited, crude, misleading and many times totally wrong. (Anyone remember he started bashing Catalina when someone said one of their boats were designed by S&S design -- BTW of course he was wrong). Not that that even matters, but its just his terrible instant knee-jerk reaction to anything, especially anything to do with boats he "deems" to trash that day. And you know what, people come on here to learn something and when statements are made that are totally false, it only hurts the person trying to learn something. He sounds like a real immature adult. But when things did start to get self-righteous, it was because the facts, as some boat owners know them to be, were completely 180 degrees out of sync with what was posted. And I ask you " so they shouldn''t respond"? And often, there is no "dose of "reality" when you are referring to Denr, just crap throwing on the wall, just like Johnnie Cochran at the OJ Simpson trial.

As for the "most popular production sailboat ever made" statement I cringed when I read that too. Maybe in the top 2 or 3, but Jeff corrected that before I had a chance.

And you MUST start reading exactly what is written and NOT try and paraphrase the wording. It is instances like this that causes problems. It was "I" that wrote "The Catalina 36 is one of the sweetest Coastal Cruisers out on the market". It takes a combination of things to make a boat "sweet". As a FACT it is the most produced 36 foot sailboat ever built. (There must be a good reason that ~2300 over 20 years have been built and there is still a waiting list and good ones don''t stay on the market long !!)

I did NOT say "sweetest ''sailing'' 36 foot coastal cruiser" . I don''t claim it to be the "best" sailing 36 out there, and I never will. That is a tough absolute to adhere to and it all depends on the conditions & where you will be sailing. But what I did say is "show me a better one with the same features and sailing manners in the same class". Obviously a Custom Tripp 37 (which I have some long distance cruising and racing experience on) or a boat like Jeff''s Farr 37 are very nice sailing boats (of course there are others). But to me both of those are much more orientated towards racing and I would not even compare their comfort and amenities and layout for Coastal Cruising to my C36 (My Girlfriend and kids on those boats would be in each others "space" way too much, the traveller smack dab in the middle of the cockpit, etc, etc).

It was not an absolute statement and for you to imply that it was is totally wrong and if anyone actually read all the posts with a fair and balance mind, they would see that most Catalina owners realize that their boats are not a Hinckley, etc, etc (as you see written over and over). And in truth Catalina owners are much closer in belief to what Jeff affectionately refers to himself as ...a "relativist". And from a relative perspective we believe that, dollar for dollar, feature for feature, that Catalina one of the tops on the list. The difference is that some people want to discount what some other boat owners feel and experience.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Tom (TSenator)you hit the nail on the head as I see it on most counts. One minor point here, I actually own a Farr 38 (technically a Farr 11.6) not a Farr 37. The Farr 37''s started life as IOR race boats. The Farr 38''s started life as family coastal and offshore cruisers. They proved to be good race boat in their day but that was not their intent. They actually have almost the same interior layout as the Catalina 36''s and 38''s but their hulls shape, rig, engineering, and deck layout and hardware choices, were clearly designed to provide very high performance for that era. Although you can still race these boats pretty successfully under PHRF, at the club level anyway, they really are not race boats. Most Americans are not all that aware that before Bruce Farr moved to Annapolis, he designed a whole series of wonderful, very high performance, coastal/offshore cruisers. The 11.6 was one of the more successful somewhere around 150 of these boats built world wide. (I also realize that is a tiny number compared to Catalina but when you consider that the boats were mostly built in New Zealand and South Africa that is a pretty big production run in a small sailing market.)

Regards
Jeff

BTW By any chance did you ever live in Englewood, New Jersey? I grew up with two brothers Vincent and Tom Senator.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Tom:

With regard to Denr, I''m only suggesting that you not take him too seriously. I''ve owned two boats of the brands that he routinely bashes (Beneteau and Jeanneau), but I''m secure in why I bought them and I don''t let his remarks get to me. Over 25 years, I''ve owned 6 boats ranging from a Prindle 16 to our current Jeanneau 41, logging over 35,000 miles in the process, so I appreciate the differences in price, build quality and suitability of the variety of boats that are out there.

These discussions about the merits of one brand versus another are always time bombs waiting to explode. This one certainly filled that bill.


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## Bluesmoods (Jul 8, 2001)

I have a Catalina 350.. Love it and for a "production" boat. I think it rates very high. 

I really (this is my opinion) don''t see the same degree quality level in Hunter Boats at all. I was a broker selling both Hunter and Catalina.. (Lot''s of them..). 
I also Sold C&C, J/Boat and Cape Dory.. 

Anyway.. Just had to add my two cents here as I do exist and don''t know or care if I am in the member directory.


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## doubleplay (Nov 9, 2001)

question for all of you gentlemen comparing apples to oranges...
Would you buy a Catalina if a Sabre or Tartan would be similarly priced? Respectfully..


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