# Wife is putting the pressure on to sell the boat.



## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

From a recent post she made here, some of you know that my wife has grown fearful of sailing on True Blue - since she fears heeling. This is mostly due to the relatively high height off the water of the aft deck (sailing cockpit deck is 5'-10" from the waterline), which increases the arc moment.

The boat is absolutely beautiful to me and I am totally obsessed by her. But, it was intended as, and designed to be a couple's cruising boat, not a solo-weekender - otherwise I'd consider taking her out singlehanded. Our relationship however, is more important than my obsession.

I originally thought it might be best to wait another season before listing it. Call me irresponsible, but I see this downturn economy as a prime opportunity to buy another boat at a great price . . . I'm really serious. I've checked out yachtworld.com and found some very attractive listings on boats that my 1st mate would fully approve of.

I _think_ I can swing two boat loans, because - being a buyer's market, I'm probably not going to *sell *in a hurry - but you never know. We do have a unique boat which is holding it's value very well (advertised asking prices have actually gone up for the same year and model) due to a strong cult following.

Many Europeans have actually been looking overseas for pre-owned, then-optional tall rig Nauticats, due to the high Euro-to-US dollar exchange rate and well-known, improved sailing performance over the standard shoal-draft models. Perhaps this is one reason for the rarity of tall-rig NC33s in excellent condition - a shallow keel model has been on the market for a while, at a lower price.

Forget about retirement security (I'm much too young to think about that anyway) . I've got plenty of professional jobs going and the outlook "seems" promising for future contract opportunities. At this point, I'm not revealing the boats I'm currently considering . . . that's a subject for another topic.

Hence, my dilemma. It is probably totally, incredibly stupid, to have two boat loans in this economy and I would be smart to heave-to and wait out the storm. But, some good buys are out there and the relationship is getting edgy. What would you do, given these criteria?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Keep the crew happy TB. Not much point in going against the flow. I'm very interested in what you would look at as the option. I'm guessing it will have to be aft cockpit ? 

One thought causes me concern, if your wife is unhappy with heel how is she going to feel when the water is rushing close by the cockpit ?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I'd buy a nice stable Tayana 52! (G)


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Too big! Buy a well made CS34...CHEAP! 

You have a great boat, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. It is a great time to buy a boat, but I think it will stay that way for a while. No rush.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

My first thought was the same as the wombat's: How's she going to feel in the cockpit of a boat with much less freeboard, when you're heeled-over and the occasional wave sends water down the side deck on the leeward side?

I think the problem here is likely one of "fear of the unknown." She doesn't understand the dynamics and what a couple of tons of keel means. My wife, whose experience is on a round-bottomed, 7 meter dingy with a certerboard, is afraid of a knock-down, if not down-right turning turtle, whenever the wind's up and the boat's heeled. I explain to her the keel on that boat weighs more than her PT Cruiser, but she still isn't quite one with the concept.

Jim


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Wait a cotton pickin' minute! Have you been talking to CD about Nordhavns?


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

You been talking to SD about Multi Hulls?
(They might be a good option for you and your wife.)


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Buy a 2nd boat? If you think that she's negative now, wait until she sees all that money flying out the door for a sport that she doesn't care for!

I recommend following the mantra of "Better to undersail the boat than not sail it at all." When we bought our first boat (14') in 1982, my wife was very fearful of everything including heeling even though she grew up 1/4mi from a salt water bay. As she learned to sail and experienced a wide variety of conditions, her confidence grew. To this day, she tends to pick the (somewhat conservative) sail combinations and even if I don't fully agree with her choice I usually keep my mouth shut. Again, better to undersail the boat than not sail it at all. She's gotten to the point that she trusts the boat, her capabilities, and can handle all 38' beautifully. It also helps that I named the boat after her (I like to hedge my bets). I recommend keeping the sailing easy, conservative and low risk until her abilities and confidence grows. I'd also trying to get her on the helm as much as possible in easy conditions to increase confidence. Definitely DON'T push the sailing and conditions to "toughen" her.

I wouldn't buy a second boat. Invariably, the first will fall into some state of disrepair and will yield a lower sale price.

Just my 2 cents......


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I didn't know Tayana made RVs... 


camaraderie said:


> I'd buy a nice stable Tayana 52! (G)


TB-

I know someone looking for a boat, and mentioned looking for a motorsailor like a Nauticat...so if you are serious about it.... let me know.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

WOW! I will PM you TB.

- CD


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Hey guys, thanks for taking the time to respond with all the thoughtful replies.

Since starting this thread from the home computer I couldn't respond until now, because I came to the office directly from sleeping on the boat last night (can you say _in the doghouse_?). The mood swings are up and down with my wife with the frequency of her adverse opinions increasing though the effcts of a glass of wine or two. Last night was no exception.

There doesn't seem to be any other option, but to put the boat up for sale. I also agree with the unanimous notion that when forced to maintain two boats, the top boat will get most of the attention - while the other sits on the hard accumulating all the crusts of neglect.

TD, Jim & Sabre, 
Yes I fully agree, the happiness of crew must always take precedence. Incidently, I had sailed years ago - before marriage and the ownership of several powerboats. Before buying this boat _together_, we had sailed in a few larger boats, all owned by our close sailor friends. She was always comfortable in these boats, and especially liked the aft cockpit IP44 we crewed on, although the rails never got wet.

Nor was she upset while sailing in other firend's two separate C34s -relatively low to water, aft cockpit sloops. So, there were never any early indications that sailboats would frighten her. Additionally, I purchased all the requisite sailing books in an attempt for her to fully understand sailing dynamics - which for the most part - went unread by her.

Conditions were very calm during the sea trial/survey of the Nauticat, and she willingly agreed to move forward with the closing - title is in both our names. During the past three seasons however, we did go through some _moderately_ extreme weather conditions - testing her endurance levels to the max and leading up to this ultimatum. "Undersailing" also no longer seems to be an option . . . I always let out the sheets when she's aboard.

Cam, I think we'd spend more time as dockside liveaboards with your beautiful Tayana - I solo-sail and that's too way much boat for me to handle.

BF, there seems to be a slight delivery problem with the CS34  , as nice as I'm sure it is . . . I would also buy a Nordhavn in a flash, if I could afford one.

TK - catamarans are actually being considered. 

SD - Sound's promising, I'll PM you later . . . and CD, thanks so much for your thoughtful PM.

I'm currently thinking that by making the open decision to list the boat . . . perhaps at the higher end of the scale, the gods will be appeased and at the very least, allow us to enjoy the boat while subduing the incessant arguments over selling her.


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

Check out Catana catamarans.....fast and seaworthy. Way more room and less maintinence (especially the woodwork...or lack there of). I am a little nervous about my wife and the heeling issue as well. The only difference is that I didn't even tell her i was buying it.....or that i was going to spend more than the selling price fixing it up . I have owned it since Oct but she just saw it for the first time last weekend. She was asleep in the v-berth within 30 min of stepping aboard!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

TB

Since it seems that you have made the decision to sell, if you actually _*want *_to sell, I would argue not to list it at the high end of the price spectrum. You may end up chasing the market down to a lower price than you could now realize.

I suspect that there is a storm brewing in the macroeconomic front...

Then again, if you want to convince the admiral that you are *trying* to sell, but there are no buyers (so you should enjoy your present boat while you have her listed...) then, aim high!

Best of luck!

Ed


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

TB, 
Did you consider mounting the "training wheels" on your Nauti*cat* (she is already a cat, why not a tri ). 
I think there is a member on Sailnet (with a very good rep) with such a boat: One larger hull in the middle and a small one on each side to prevent heeling. I think he calls them ama   

Now for real: 
I do not think having two boats is a good idea. Not just cost of purchase and maintenance but also all your time and energy ... That is almost as bad as having two wives. We can't handle one at times....
I would probably list the boat and price it high and search for a new boat very easy. Perhaps one size up would make your wife feel more at ease.
I know mine was not very happy on a 33 footer, and she likes the 43 feet much more. She still hates to steer if the waves are large and we are sailing. She has no problems motoring in large waves (or making dinner).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I deeply envy you guys with nauti-wives. Mine is a flat-lander who, while not against sailing, is not suited to it naturally. I am working slowly to improve her experience sailing, and have purchased Don Casey's book "Dragged Aboard" in the hopes of some insight. TB, I very much hope that you can navigate your way through this crisis while maintaining both your boat (in some form) AND your wife (not necessarily in that order). Best wishes.

Freeman Dodsworth


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## jadkkd (Aug 8, 2007)

Although my wife loves being on the water she didn't enjoy sailing when the wind kicked up. We actually traded our sailboat in for a picnic boat until we just recently sold it. Now I want to buy another sailboat. My wife is enthusiastic but to make her feel more comfortable I took a private lesson on a sonar and brought my wife. The instructor is an accomplished olympic sailor and teacher. I filled him in beforehand so whie out on the water he asked my wife a bunch of questions and went over all scenarios. We will do it a few more times, but hearing it from hiim gave my wife a better understanding. Isn't that always the way! But it actually helped both of us.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Just a quick note;
Blue I feel your pain. This must be very taxing on you.
I know how much you love you Nuaticat, you speak highly of her and her benefits often. I hope that you and your wife might come to a compromise that will please you both. Your life partner should take precedence here. We often state that the Admiral must be happy or you will be unhappy.
It is so true. Good luck in your search and I hope that you both can find the vessel that will maintain your dreams. (Gunboat 48; Hint, Hint. Lots of boat and lots of Money, No Tipping)


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

My boat predates my wife. She is a total non water person... doesn't swim and is petrified of water. But she knew that the boat was completely in my life and future.

The first time she got in the dink she was white with fear and huddled at the bottom. She wouldn't let me take her far from the dock.

I got her on the boat and at first it was in light air... after she helped out with mundane tasks dockside like cleaning and so on.

She refused to learn a thing, knots, steering anything. She was afraid of heeling and said she got sea sick when we were underway and she was below.

She did get sea sick once but it was in very very nasty conditions on the way back from Maine when it was pouring and she had to go below.

Over time she adjusted... now her complaints are only bad weather. If she's afraid of heeling she never says it. I think her confidence has grown over the years because she sees it IS safe and I AM prudent.

We had one testy scene in Vineyard Sound when it was pea soup fog and a ferry appeared too close for comfort. When I went to look at the radar... below decks... it wasn't working. I told her it should have sounded an alarm. She insisted I get it fixed and have a working radar. Got a new one.

She got me an AIS for my birthday since it was a safety device.

She's now pretty relaxed on board.. and even goes to the mast when I take down the main.

Based on my experience with her fears I think almost anyone can over come it if they have the will. I was not going to get rid of Shiva so she had to take her with me and so she did. I still do a lot of single handing when she doesn't want to come.

True you need to find whatever it is that will make the misses comfy. I am not sure why it would be a different boat... but it may be. You need to identify exactly what her fears are.

jef
sv shiva


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## iwm (Mar 6, 2007)

Isn’t it fun telling other people how to solve their problems!!!!

Here’s my two cents worth. No specific boat or difference between selling at a high price versus a low price is worth jeopardizing either your wife’s enthusiasm for boating/sailing or even more importantly your relationship with her. Unless you are happy sailing alone and leaving the wife home (which may bring on its own set of issues), the sailing/boating experience needs to be a partnership. While its not always 50-50, the more enthusiastic the “reluctant” partner is, the better for all involved.

Some recent personal experience. We have been looking for a new, larger boat recently. Looked at one boat that I loved. It had all the cruising bells and whistles, great cruising reputation, etc. I drove away thinking “this is it.” Then I asked the wife what she thought -dead silence. Then, “I can’t believe you liked that boat.” She had major objections, mostly aesthetic, that I thought were relatively unimportant. After a few days, and much discussion, she said, “if you really want that boat buy it.” But I knew her heart wouldn’t really be in it, so we walked away. Sometime later, we found another boat, that wasn’t quite as much to my liking, but she was very enthusiastic about. I would gladly trade her interest and enthusiasm for slight differences in boat design and equipment. That boat now under contract and pending survey.

So my advice for True Blue. Work out a plan with your wife for boating that maximizes her interest and comfort. Most likely this would mean putting Nauticat on the market at a reasonable price and looking for another boat that you both could be happy with.

good luck in your process

IWM


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

southerncross - I'll look into those Catanas, thanks.



eherlihy said:


> TB
> I suspect that there is a storm brewing in the macroeconomic front...


Do you have inside info that the economy is in for a long, spiraling nose-dive? If so, and aside from the domestic issue, I suppose this is a good reason for listing earlier - at a fair price.

tomaz, as inticing as the notion of moving up to a 40-something boat is . . . I don't think we need that kind of space, nor do I think I want to incur all the extra expenses that go with it.

Bardo, thanks for the warm wishes - I just might look into that book - "Dragged Aboard" . . . since that's close to her attitude with me whenever I raise sail.

jadkkd - You know, I've tried so hard to get her to take private sailing lessons, without my presence . . . to no avail. This would be easier to accept, if she had made more effort to enjoy sailing through advanced learning. Interesting that you went from sail - to power, now back to sail again. Best wishes for success.

tjk - yep - admiral MUST be happy, or no one else is. That Gunboat 48 is hot!



> True you need to find whatever it is that will make the misses comfy. I am not sure why it would be a different boat... but it may be. You need to identify exactly what her fears are.
> 
> jef


Wise words indeed jef . . . but this is the enigma isn't it? Wish I knew for sure, but I suspect her deepest, _darkest _desire is to have a powerboat . . . catamaran may be a compromise.



> Isn't it fun telling other people how to solve their problems!!!!
> 
> Here's my two cents worth. No specific boat or difference between selling at a high price versus a low price is worth jeopardizing either your wife's enthusiasm for boating/sailing or even more importantly your relationship with her. Unless you are happy sailing alone and leaving the wife home (which may bring on its own set of issues), the sailing/boating experience needs to be a partnership. While its not always 50-50, the more enthusiastic the "reluctant" partner is, the better for all involved. . .
> 
> ...


You're absolutely correct IWM, as with most others who've offered their thoughts on this difficult issue I'm faced with.

I'm not one to hang dirty laundry for the entire world to see. But I spend so much time on SailNet, and in a way, I think this motivates me to move on; by announcement, the emotions I have for this boat could be dispersed - in time, replaced by another. Remember how exciting it was to shop for your last boat? By doing it together - this time with a sharper attention to her desires, things will get better.

Nothing can take the place of a woman's love for her husband . . . don't ever want to lose that.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Sounds to me like you're in for a life of no boats. This is just the first step. Nothing like being loved......and caged.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

seabreeze_97 said:


> Sounds to me like you're in for a life of no boats. This is just the first step. Nothing like being loved......and caged.


How profound seabreeze. If love is being caged, then I've been a caged animal for over 30 years. There will be another boat - this I can guarantee.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> I'm currently thinking that by making the open decision to list the boat . . . perhaps at the higher end of the scale, the gods will be appeased and at the very least, allow us to enjoy the boat while subduing the incessant arguments over selling her.


Dammit, TB, I feel for you, especially as my boat looks like the bigger, steel brother of yours! I must count my lucky stars that in a recent blow with 25 knots and seven foot rollers with 200 miles of fetch, it was me in the pilothouse and my wife on the aft deck handling the tacking (and getting wet even five feet off the water!).

Has your wife actually _driven the boat_? I find that a lot of wives (and some husbands of sailing women skippers) are most frightened by the helplessness of not knowing what to do, and that if they can learn how to safely run the boat solo, they can largely overcome their fears of heavy weather.

I haven't read to the end of the thread yet, so I apologize if this has been suggested.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Sometimes you have to compromise. (Often that seems to mean she gets her way, doesn't it? .) For example: I'd kind of like to have a motorcycle again. The Admiral is dead-set against it. So I occasionally--probably too often--reminder her of how neat I think it would be to have a motorcycle. But I don't push the issue and I'm resigned to not having one. And that's okay. While I'd love to have a motorcycle, I'm pretty damn sure I'd love even more to keep my honey.

As for the boat... dunno. TB: Your wife isn't happy with your current sailboat and you don't know exactly why. She either doesn't know or won't tell you. One data point is her refusal to take individual sailing lessons. That kind of makes it sound like she really doesn't care for sailing all that much--if at all. You voiced the concern that what you think she really wants is a powerboat. Hmmm...

Personally, the Admiral and I couldn't afford to operate a powerboat even if that's what we wanted. (I like 'em well enough. She does not.) We have an acquaintance that uses his powerboat to go to/from an island spot they have. It's about 45 minutes each way. He estimates that trip is now costing him about $80, round trip . No thanks. Plus a sailboat is "green." 

Good luck, my friend.

Jim


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

*Compromises*

TB, sorry to hear of your conundrum. Unless you are an unreasonably selfish person and do whatever you feel like, life is a series of compromises. Just make sure you are not the only one compromising. It is obvious to all of us who have seen your posts that your boat is an important part of your life.

Maybe you just need to find the right compromise. I would hope your spouse knows what your boat means to you and takes that into consideration while weighing it against her fears? discomfort? If not, you may have a bigger problem than the boat.

I would think you would be able to find some kind of compromise here. It should not be a one sided solution. If getting a different boat is the compromise then fine (as long as it still has sails). You both have given in a little. I don't know how often you sail, but maybe another solution is to reduce the number of trips during the summer and do something she would prefer to do on the nonsailing weekends. Maybe you could do a couple sailing trips with your guy friends and/or family while she does something with her gal friends and/or family.

My spouse is a real land lubber and she would prefer a power boat to my Calypso, but she knows how much sailing means to me so we compromise. Sometimes she comes with me, sometimes she goes with our freinds on their power boat and meets me and the kids at our destination other times the husbands go sailing and the spouses have a girls night out at the spa.

Everybodies' solution is different. Good luck finding the solution that will work best you and your spouse.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Gee, I hope it works out for you. I am blessed wth a wife who seems to love sailing as much as I do (even though she has been content not to learn how to sail). The only specific comment that I have is that, unless you run into the deal of the century on your dream boat, that you sell one before you buy another. I can tell you from personal experience that, unless money is not an issue, it is very difficult to feel like a sensible person as the owner of two large sailboats.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Thanx Val, Jim, Calpyso and CB for the thoughts. I'll get over it - not the end of the world, even though you've pegged me re: the boat being a big part of my life . . . even bigger than I'd care to accept.

Of course she has driven the boat, but typically will only take the wheel when under power. I prefer to sail most of the time, which makes me the sole helmsman. Couldn't do it very well without the AP.

I thought the motorsailer *was* a compromise - but not enough I suppose. If we end up with a "powerboat" as the big boat, it will be a single diesel engine trawler, with at least a staysail < G >. That would truely make her happy. If this is the case, I will get a daysailer for myself . . . like an Alerion Express, or clone.

I'm aiming for a catamaran - no heeling, condo-like accommodations, fast under most points of sail, but upwind - unfortunately though, relegated to an end "T" slip, due to the excessive beam.


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## FrankLanger (Dec 27, 2005)

TrueBlue,
Although it may be too late in your situation to adopt the things that worked for me (or maybe you have tried them already), my wife was a reluctant sailor at first on our (read my) small (23') boat, and similarly our now adult kids had various degrees of comfort with sailing--from rail in the water "hee haw" to flat as a pancake at speeds not to exceed 3 knots!

I now have a wife who is equal partner on our 30' coastal sailboat and loves cruising to new destinations. The following worked for me:

1) Installed a levogauge and explained to everyone that the boat's keel and sailplan is made to sail at 20 degrees, can easily handle 30 degrees, so as long as the levogauge is within that limit, we are absolutely safe--and it's there for all to see as the boat begins to heel.

2) I agreed that if anyone feels at the limit of their tolerance, they only had to ask once and I would immediately take action accordingly to reduce sail, speed, heel or whatever was needed.

3) I showed them all the adjustments available to the helmsman to ease things: backstay adjuster, outhaul, halyard tension, furled headsail, reefs, sailing with only head or mainsail, etc., so they could see that we weren't at the mercy of the wind/waves.

4) I made sure to emphasize the "fun" times on the boat--great meals and snacks, lantern with appropriate music in the evening, watching the sunsets, glass of wine, etc., so the boat wasn't just a challenging experience, but also relaxation, beauty, etc.

5) I encouraged them to take the helm, with me at their side, so they could get the feel of the boat and experience how solid it is, even as it heels a bit--but gradually at first in real safe conditions.

6) I showed them when the wind piped up that we could take a reef and keep the same level of heel, even in 20 - 25 knots of wind, which impressed them!

In short, I did everything possible to show them, help them understand, make it fun, and give them control to help them appreciate it. They are all still different, with some loving the challenge of water over the bow, others preferring sunning on the bow in a swimsuit with the boat sailing (barely) flat. But my wife now loves the boat--still doesn't trust herself when the wind pipes up and passes the helm back to me--but considers herself co-owner/partner. Incidently, she picked the name of our current boat as well.

Maybe some of this will help you, or others in a similar situation. Good luck!

Frank.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

Some of the 33-36' cats have a narrow enough beam to fit in a 40' slip. Just FYI. If you have questions on cats, let me know.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Tomaz-

No real sailor would be caught dead sailing a boat with training wheels... they're training floats dammit... and yes, they're called "amas". 


tomaz_423 said:


> TB,
> Did you consider mounting the "training wheels" on your Nauti*cat* (she is already a cat, why not a tri ).
> I think there is a member on Sailnet (with a very good rep) with such a boat: One larger hull in the middle and a small one on each side to prevent heeling. I think he calls them ama
> 
> ...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I feel your pain, TB. But all the guys have responded with very good advice. Seems to me that the summary is unless you made a mistake marrying her to begin with, (and with 30 years of history that's unlikely) you need to compromise. A multihull is a good compromise if heeling is the problem. Perhaps with a multihull you may get her to take the helm, which may develop sufficient interest in sailing to be willing to try a monohull again, perhaps first as a bareboat charter. I was one of the lucky ones - she overcame her fear of heeling and is now a more agressive sailor tham I am. Of course a 21000 pound 37 foot boat dosn't heel a heck of a lot! Listen to the advice given - a second boat or a very large boat beyond your budget could cause cash flow problems, which is a major player in many marital breakups. A single engine 35 foot trawler will not chew up as much fuel as a 25 foot cigarrette boat, but the trawler still makes that noise and smells bad! Best wishes , and hope you can work it out.


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

Nothing helpful to add, except best wishes for a successful compromise. Good luck.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> I also agree with the unanimous notion that when forced to maintain two boats, the top boat will get most of the attention - while the other sits on the hard accumulating all the crusts of neglect.


True of wives as well.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Geezz holy crap!! I love your boat...esp for the grande freeboard..freekin bummer!
Re: Two boats...would it be cheaper to put your boat on the hard if you get another? The sweet thing to do, would be to keep the naughty-cat whilst you try other options,. to see if the Mrs. likes something else better. I am not a a highly experienced sailboater. But I am well experienced with crappy weather and the seas. As you know, the CG goes well into harms way to save those caught in the storm. You can tell the Mrs. for me,...big freeboard is good...very good...no matter how it feels.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

FrankLanger said:


> TrueBlue,
> I now have a wife who is equal partner on our 30' coastal sailboat and loves cruising to new destinations.
> Frank.


Frank, Thank you for sharing those six ways to achieve crew happiness . . . they're all very good suggestions. I tried them all on my first and only wife - she's just too stubborn in her ways I suppose. Seems like you had a chance to try it over again, but I choose to not take that route.  


> TB-
> Some of the 33-36' cats have a narrow enough beam to fit in a 40' slip. Just FYI. If you have questions on cats, let me know.


Thanx SD - you're the man when it comes to multi hulls . . . I will contact you once I (I mean - when WE) decide which way we're going with this.



> - a second boat or a very large boat beyond your budget could cause cash flow problems, which is a major player in many marital breakups. A single engine 35 foot trawler will not chew up as much fuel as a 25 foot cigarrette boat, but the trawler still makes that noise and smells bad! Best wishes , and hope you can work it out.


ragtme - the 2nd boat idea is definitely out - and believe me, so is the cigarette boat . . . good grief! The trawler on the other hand, as much as many here may not openly accept, is the likely transition for most sailboaters - as they decide to lessen their work load. I'm not challenged by that yet,  especially with a ketch rig - but, I'm keeping an open mind with the abundance of single engine, "quality" yachts out here (has to have downeaster lines). Sail is still my priority.

Thanks Reverend  .

Tenuki - I was thinking the same analogy . . . what's that they say about great minds?

USCG - I knew you liked the boat . . . tell you what, maybe we can cut a deal without the broker's commission. 

My wife has read this thread, and looks like I'm out of the dog house - for a while at least.

Thanks guys.


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## ligal (Jul 22, 2007)

Hi,
I guess I could throw my two cents in as a woman. 
We started sailing together not knowing anything. 17', 23' then a 30'.
At the beginning I was not happy as I had no confidence in myself or the captain; did not want to end up in the sea, but as size and confidence in the captain grew so did my love for sailing.
When I could take the helm and new what I was doing, I realized if anything happened aboard I new what to do, could do it, and take the boat home by myself. 
A good feeling !!!
Sue


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Thanks Sue . . . wish my wife could see the sea through your eyes.


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## ligal (Jul 22, 2007)

She may some day; but she has to want to also.
I understand I was married for 41 yrs. Does get tough at times to say the least!!!
Sue


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Sorry to hear of what you're going through. My wife's a fair weather sailor too and she can get downright panicky if the boat is doing something out of the norm like excessive heeling. Lately, I've been thinking that the X chromosome is wired differently than the Y. They seem to feel it in their bones that when something is outside of the norm, there must be something terribly wrong going on. You cannot talk it out or try to rationalize it, you can only deal with it. Take it from me, you absolutely do not want to broach the boat with the wife on board. It's been years later, and she'll barely tolerate a kite even when flown in the lightest of zephyrs. You know that trawler is part of the progression of life so don't feel so bad.
<O
Progression of Life
<OToy Boat - Sail Boat<O
Sail Boat - Motor Boat<O
Motor Boat - Motor Home<O
Motor Home - Nursing Home<O


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> Progression of Life
> <OToy Boat - Sail Boat<O
> Sail Boat - Motor Boat<O
> Motor Boat - Motor Home<O
> Motor Home - Nursing Home<O


Anxiously awaiting Cam's retort . . .


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> Sorry to hear of what you're going through. My wife's a fair weather sailor too and she can get downright panicky if the boat is doing something out of the norm like excessive heeling. Lately, I've been thinking that the X chromosome is wired differently than the Y. They seem to feel it in their bones that when something is outside of the norm, there must be something terribly wrong going on. You cannot talk it out or try to rationalize it, you can only deal with it. Take it from me, you absolutely do not want to broach the boat with the wife on board. It's been years later, and she'll barely tolerate a kite even when flown in the lightest of zephyrs. You know that trawler is part of the progression of life so don't feel so bad.
> <O
> Progression of Life
> <OToy Boat - Sail Boat<O
> ...


AHAHAHAHAH!!! AND I DID NOT THINK OF THAT ONE!!! Giu... Giu, is that you???? How is vaction Giu?

- CD


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Retort...what retort?? Seems like we could all save a lot of money by skipping straight to the nursing home. My problem is that the SALE BOAT step is missing from that equation!! (G)


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## ligal (Jul 22, 2007)

Do You men ever sail or just sit at your computer all day??
Sue


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## Doug_53 (Dec 1, 2002)

From the looks of the picture with your post you need to let those sails out and heel less. My vessel has a 52" freeboard. If she heels its because the sails need to be adjusted. You can sail just as fast and a lot more commfortable. Heeling doesnt mean speed. Yea sure it looks neet but it's not very efficent. Lighten up on the hell bent for leather. Slow down and make it enjoyable for the wife.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

ligal said:


> Do You men ever sail or just sit at your computer all day??
> Sue


You'll rarely see any posts from me from 1700 Friday until 0800 Monday and I'm working on making that 0800 Tuesday.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I really feel for all of you guys out there who have "Admirals" who aren't that keen on your boats. 

I think the underlying problem is that the "Admirals" lack confidence in their own ability. It's very hard to surrender complete control to your husband on a boat, it goes against every human self preservation instinct females have. I think the key here is education and confidence. If the "Admirals" feel that they could run the boat on their own many of the fears would fade away.

Everyone has to have a passion in life - something that you just love doing and can make all the difficulties of life fade away. A person who is denied their passion is merely an empty shell and not that much fun to live with in the long run.

Sez


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

ligal said:


> Do You men ever sail or just sit at your computer all day??
> Sue


Obviously not - it is well past day time, so there!  
Actually, we are headed to the beach tomorrow for 3 nights and I will have a tiny boat, but a boat just the same, with us and it will get wet.

-Andy


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Sue- HA! I've wondered the same thing. True Blue- I feel for you, sounds like a catamaran will be a good compromise. Good luck to you.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> How profound seabreeze. If love is being caged, then I've been a caged animal for over 30 years. There will be another boat - this I can guarantee.


Thirty years and _this_ has you in the outhouse?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

What's wrong with a doghouse... I'm perfectly happy there... 

Let me know if I can help in any way.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailorsez said:


> I really feel for all of you guys out there who have "Admirals" who aren't that keen on your boats. Sez


I am feeling lucky, Nimfy loves the heel, she feels as we arent sailing if were not. only problem is when we're making good way, sometimes when she's below she'll blow chunks(you know that feeling when you go below of the water against the hull while doing 8.5 knots). she still does not like steering but will do so if im forward.
I'm gonna agree with Doug. obviously she likes the boat. slow it down, who gives a crap if you're only doing 2.5 knots, use only the main for awhile. it'll make her comfy. as she gets used to it, turn it up a notch. keep this process ongoing till your rail is so wet that your both ready to jump off. Nimfy never sailed before i met her and i slowly turned her on to it by leaving the sails almost totally luff, letting her handle the sheets, tiller, winches etc. showed her pics and videos of heeling boats on the web and then next time we sailed she said "when are we gonna heel"? i dont think you need to sell, just slowly adjust!
just my .02


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> Do You men ever sail or just sit at your computer all day??
> Sue


sue, Don't know about everyone else - but I'm out on the boat every weekend, occasional week long cruises and most weekday nights my wife and I sleep onboard together. She really does love the space on the boat. I access SailNet during my office workday - while working on AUTOCAD projects.



Doug_53 said:


> From the looks of the picture with your post you need to let those sails out and heel less. My vessel has a 52" freeboard. If she heels its because the sails need to be adjusted. You can sail just as fast and a lot more commfortable. Heeling doesnt mean speed. Yea sure it looks neet but it's not very efficent. Lighten up on the hell bent for leather. Slow down and make it enjoyable for the wife.


Come on Doug, IIRC from the Lat & Atts site, you've got a Formosa 53 + - ketch, a very stable platform. Under similar conditions, a barge would probably heel more than your boat.

I do appreciate and fully understand your comments though, and know you mean well. Three seasons ago, while finding what the boat is capable of, I tried to sail to the edge with my Nauticat. I will bet that every sailor has done this with their boats.

What I found out was the boat is somewhat tender. Since then, I always sheet out and adjust the rig to reduce heeling - especially with my wife on board. She is simply afraid of the height of the aft deck helm. Whenever the boat rolls from powerboat wakes, she hits the deck with the needless fear of being tossed overboard. I don't know why this is - have tried everything to ease her anxiety.

jrd22 - thanks, don't know if the cat will work for her - but it's worth trying.

seabreeze - I use the term "in the doghouse" in it's lightest sense. There's no fighting involved here - just seeking a rational compromise without tension. We're adults in love, capable of solving our own differences - otherwise we'd have split up long ago. The intelligent solution seems to be to sell and seek out a fair replacement. I have a meeting with a yacht broker on Monday.

uspirate -
Don't know what's worse, the wife "blowing chunks" or being fearful of heeling  .


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Maybe the solution is as simple as trying a stiffer boat. I have found that since buying a boat with a five ton keel, our friends who are heel-averse are much more relaxed.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

ligal said:


> Do You men ever sail or just sit at your computer all day??
> Sue


All weekend, I do have to work though. Can't be all fun and games.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

GunBoat 48 (Hint Hint)


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Good solution, but I wish it was that simple CB - but I think the fear is deeper rooted . . . she doesn't like sailing. A catamaran is about as stiff as you can get - we'll see if that works during a test sail.

My 33 foot boat displaces 18,000 lbs, has 650 sf of sail area and a 5,000 lb lead ballast - the height amplifies the heeling moment, making it seem greater than it actually is.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

TJK, I think she would love the space . . .










I'd love the speed . . .



















But don't know if she'd freak out.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Blue,
I am willing to leave everything to be your personal crew.
Get the boat, your wife will love it. Let me talk with her and I will really screw things up for you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Whats worse than the wife blowing chunks? You having to clean it up while she panics at the steering station because the boat is heeling!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TB, TB, TB, TB...
I went on vacation for nine days with minimal media access, and when I come back I learn: there's a cat 2 screaming through the Caribe, the stock market crashes, and worst of all... TB IS CONSIDERING SELLING TRUEBLUE! THESE ARE THE LAST DAYS!


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

It's the apocalypse sailhog . . .


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I hate to say it, and I may be really wrong, but if she doesn't like the monohull she is going to hate the motion and sailing characteristics of a cat. Unless, of course, you are sitting still in the Caribbean.  I feel for ya TB. Do you have to sell her? Do you guys have other things to do together? Maybe the Nauticat will just have to be *your* thing.

edit - I reread and see now that she was okay prior to the Nauticat. So, has she developed a dislike to sailing or to the Nauticat? Might want to take her back out on some of the other boats she was on prior to the Nauticat and see if she still likes it, then go from there. I love the NC and would hate to give it up too, but there are a few other boats out there that make me drool too. If she still likes sailing on something else, I think you could find a good compromise.


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## hglad (Mar 9, 2006)

Dear TrueBlue,
As a woman who experiences all the fears discussed in this thread, I would like to share a quote from The Seawife's Handbook by Joyce Sleightholme:

"To my mind there are four types of sailing wives: those who sail and enjoy it; those who sail rather than be left behind, and put up with it with bad grace; those who won't sail at any price, try to stop their husband when he goes and are ungracious when he gets back; and those who pack him off with their blessing, then busy themselves with their own hobbies."

I had to look at myself and decide which type of wife I was going to be.

Vicky G


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

Hglad,

Did The Seawife's Handbook really say "bad" in "those who sail rather than be left behind, and put up with it with bad grace?" I'm thinking that are plenty of women who simply "put up with it with grace."

Anyway, I think that it is good that a woman has responded. Not this thread, but the forums aren't always as female friendly as they probably should be.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

I lucked-out. My wife not only sails and enjoys it, but the boat purchase was _her_ idea and was purchased with _her_ inheritance money. (She graciously refers to Abracadabra as "our" boat, but we both know whose boat she really is .) As far as my other hobbies, the ones in which she doesn't take (much) interest: She tends to pack me off with her blessing, and busy herself with her own interests. Thing is: I don't do too much of that. (Nor does she.) And the money I spend on my-only interests comes out of my allowance, not the "general fund."

Jim


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

bf - I sailed before marraige - but my dirty little secret is that we had owned four powerboats together before buying the Nauticat. They just kept getting bigger and bigger - using more and more fuel. I got very tired of only having two functions - fast-forward and reverse.

She really loved our last one . . . a picnic boat styled, low-profile crusier. It was great for getting out to the scuba diving sites, fishing and overnighting. But I grew to really hate the mechanics and needed to simplify, use my brain instead of testosterone and go back to what I really loved.

Our closest marina friends all had large sailboats, some full-time liveaboards. We spent much time on their boats - all year long. We rafted up with them during our island destinations and sailed frequently as well. I felt she was ready for the transition.

I looked very hard at many sailboats before selecting this one - a comfortable, quality-built motorsailer. She was reluctant at first but agreed with my choice . . . after three full seasons, I've finally accepted defeat.

We both love the oceans always choosing coastal vacations to the Caribbean in winters; during summer cruising the Bay and southern New England islands - did it extensively with the other boats. She said she misses the motion of powerboats - not necessarily the speed, but the ability to keep ahead of following seas, minimal rolling and absense of heeling.

You can probably relate bf - IIRC, you had powerboats before the CS34. You may be right about the catamaran . . but I'm clinging on to some hope. Not long ago, she had a magazine opened to a Sabreline - her dreamboat.

The most important thing to me is to spend time on the water with my wife.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Wow, that Sabre is beautiful! Nobody here is going to hold it against you if you go power. You may take a lot of flak, but we understand and its none of our business anyway! You're right, I grew up on powerboats, so I still like them. Sailing still feels foreign to me in some ways, even though I have been doing it for twenty years. I guess its that early age association with the stinkers. Boating to me was several hours of motoring to a nice quite cove on the North Shore of Long Island. Anchoring, and playing in the "warm" water and on the beach for the day, the boat was really just transportation. Unfortunately, there is nothing like that here. Things change, life changes. Be happy with your wife, that comes first. The ride comes second. You can always charter. I often think about getting a trawler for home and just chartering a sailboat on vacation. Lots of options out there. What everyone tells me, "It'll work itself out". And you know what, they're right.


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## hglad (Mar 9, 2006)

TejasSailor,

Yes, the word "bad" was used in the book. I agree with you, many women put up with sailing with grace and try to keep their fears to themselves. This book with writen in 1970 and is a bit dated. The quote did give me something to think about. The boat and a sailing future came with my dear husband. We are in our 60s, so I guess we are a bit dated too. 
Vicky


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The speed of a catamaran should not ause spousal freak-out, since the two of you used to own power boats. The space would be nice for both of you. The trawler option has been adopted by many of my friends as age makes it difficult to go forward to change sails in a blow. (I am older than some of them are!) But after 44 years of marriage and 30 years of sailing, anything with over 100 gallon fuel tanks scare me! Not the danger of explosion or fire, I can be hurt just as bad with ten gallons of fuel. It's the danger of heart attack when I see the fuel bill! Do you know how many social security checks it takes to purchase 200 gallons of diesel fuel? I have the same problem with a 40 foot motor home! Better save my money for that nursing home!


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## iwm (Mar 6, 2007)

TB
Sailor + powerboater = motor sailor. A very logical idea. Too bad it didn’t work out for you and your wife. Good luck with the cat idea, but I’ve got a feeling you’re bound to be a power boater again.
But that’s ok. I don’t dislike all powerboaters. Some of my best friends are powerboaters. Some of my family are powerboaters. I am a powerboater. Whoops - did I just say that? I really didn't mean to start powerboating. But a friend talked me into trying his and I was hooked. But it’s only a small one. And we only use it for commuting and other practical stuff. I don’t really like it. Really I don’t. I hate that feeling of going 20knots dead upwind. Its so uncomfortable to squeeze into small dock spaces. I hate being able to get some fresh fish. And I really hate being able to run the boat onto the beach to unload stuff. But when we close on the new sailboat, I’m going to sell the powerboat. I promise I will. I may keep it for just a little longer, but I promise I will quit. I promise I will, eventually…..

IWM


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

That's funny stuff IWM. 

I'm sure IF I get a "boat without sails", I may become alienated by many folks here, since powerboat is a dirty word on sailnet. But remember, I plan on getting a daysailer as a last resort . . . to clear the tinitus I get from all that engine noise.

In reality, most sailors have a "powerboat" tender - so in effect, my situation won't be _much _different. 

ragtime - I was trying not to think about the fuel thing, until you brought up the Social Security check thing. Now I'm getting the jitters - considering the hit my SEP is taking.

Actually, our current boat has a 90 hp Lehman diesel, not unlike what many trawlers produced within the Lehman era have. No way will I even consider twin engines - the wife will still be more than pleased.

bf, As pretty as the lines are, that Sabre is WAY out of my price range - plus for 34 ft, that so-called galley is pathetic. It's just an incredibly overpriced dayboat, competing with the Hinckley Picnic Boat market.

I didn't mean to digress to powerboat discussions on a sailing forum. Sorry if I offended the sail purists . . . my heart is still with sailboats.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

hglad,

You didn't say what type of sailing wife you became.


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## norsearayder (Dec 19, 2006)

most of my money ive spent on women and boats..the rest ive wasted..........women r like fish givem what they want....all sailboats hava iorn heart....there r no atheists when the north atlantic kicks up


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

iwm said:


> TB
> Sailor + powerboater = motor sailor. A very logical idea. Too bad it didn't work out for you and your wife. Good luck with the cat idea, but I've got a feeling you're bound to be a power boater again.
> But that's ok. I don't dislike all powerboaters. Some of my best friends are powerboaters. Some of my family are powerboaters. I am a powerboater. Whoops - did I just say that? I really didn't mean to start powerboating. But a friend talked me into trying his and I was hooked. But it's only a small one. And we only use it for commuting and other practical stuff. I don't really like it. Really I don't. I hate that feeling of going 20knots dead upwind. Its so uncomfortable to squeeze into small dock spaces. I hate being able to get some fresh fish. And I really hate being able to run the boat onto the beach to unload stuff. But when we close on the new sailboat, I'm going to sell the powerboat. I promise I will. I may keep it for just a little longer, but I promise I will quit. I promise I will, eventually&#8230;..
> 
> IWM


Thats funny! "I can quit anytime, really I can."

TB - Galley? I thought the galley on that was filleting the fish on the stern platform.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> That's funny stuff IWM.
> 
> I'm sure IF I get a "boat without sails", I may become alienated by many folks here, since powerboat is a dirty word on sailnet. But remember, I plan on getting a daysailer as a last resort . . . to clear the tinitus I get from all that engine noise.
> 
> ...


You are always welcome here!! I sure won't alienate you, unless you buy a Nordhavn. That will piss me off. THen you are permanently banned until me and the family come spend the summer with you!!!

HAHA!

Get what makes you and the wife happy... nothing else really matters.

- CD

PS Now if you get a Sea Ray, we need to have a face-face talk.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

If he gets a sea ray, you won't be able to see his face, just the underside of the bow!


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

TrueBlue said:


> That's funny stuff IWM.
> 
> I'm sure IF I get a "boat without sails", I may become alienated by many folks here, since powerboat is a dirty word on sailnet. But remember, I plan on getting a daysailer as a last resort . . . to clear the tinitus I get from all that engine noise.
> 
> ...


On a recent visit to Edgartown harbor (which you were kind enough to help me with in another thread) I found the greatest sign of conspicuous wealth was not the impressive waterfront estates, the fancy shops or the perfectly manicured downtown, but the sheer number of Hinckley picnic and other Hinckley power boats.

I always admired the profile and great looks of these boats but was shocked when, by accident, I learned that a cernter console small Hinkley (something like a modest-sized Boston Whaler) sold new for nearly 400k. This is a world that I will never know.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I know nothing about this boat, but saw it at the boat show. The Island Packet SP Cruiser.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> I know nothing about this boat, but saw it at the boat show. The Island Packet SP Cruiser.


Wasn't there a review on that somewhere? IIRC, it was not positive... but I cannot remember for sure.

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CD-

The power is obviously starting to corrupt you...


Cruisingdad said:


> You are always welcome here!! I sure won't alienate you, unless you buy a Nordhavn. That will piss me off. THen you are permanently banned until me and the family come spend the summer with you!!!
> 
> HAHA!
> 
> ...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I think PS did a review of one recently.


Cruisingdad said:


> Wasn't there a review on that somewhere? IIRC, it was not positive... but I cannot remember for sure.
> 
> - CD


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## hglad (Mar 9, 2006)

TrueBlue,
You asked what kind of sailing wife I have become. I guess I am still in transition.
I met and married my husband in 2000. I retired and we sold everything and sailed from Portland, OR to Tracy Arm, Alaska. and back to Portland. This passage lasted a little under a year. Living on our sailboat (Nordic 40) and trying to adjust to a very different lifestyle was difficult for me. There were so many things that frightened me....weather, rough seas....mostly the sails. I really did not want to learn how the whole sailing process worked.
When we returned to Portland, I went back to work and I encouraged my husband to continue his sailing dream. He sailed to Ixtapa, Mexico and from there to Hawaii and back to Portland, OR. We really did not think we would be sailing again and sold the boat. Life continued.
In Jan. 2006, I began to think about sailing again. Retirement was ahead of me and I thought about what I wanted to do. We could stay in our large house with our beautiful yard, watch television, clean house, garden and babysit grandchildren. I had always felt that I had somehow failed at sailing and wished I had given it a better try. I mentioned my feelings to my husband and we started looking for a boat. We found our boat in Nova Scotia and had her trucked across Canada and down to Portland. She is a Freedom 39 Pilothouse. There are only 2 winches and the sails can be controlled from the cockpit. This boat can be sailed singlehanded or by a couple. 
I am still afraid but I am going to learn to sail. We are planning to head back to Alaska in May of 2008. We sold the house again, sold most of our belonging and now have a homebase in a 500 sq ft boathouse in the same marina as our boat. We want to sail about 6 months our of the year. I guess it comes down to what you want. I don't want to settle for a traditional life. I want more. I want to make this work and will do what it takes. 
Still in transition but looking forward...
Vicky G


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Well, if attitude counts for anything, you've got the right one. Fair winds to you, madam!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Vicky G, you got the right attitude!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TrueBlue, I know you've heard this before, *"It's harder to find a good boat than it is a good woman".* Let your conscience be your guide, I did not say this, I was not here.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

I've nothing against powerboats. (My wife doesn't much care for them, tho.) I like _all_ boats. That being said: To me, a powerboat is mainly only good for getting from Point A to Point B quickly and (one hopes) with minimum fuss. Running around the seas with a powerboat, for the sheer fun of being on the water, interests me not in the least. For _that_ I want a sailboat. Period.

If I lived on or near enough a body of water to make it practical, I'd have one of each: A sailboat and a powerboat. The sailboat to be on the water, enjoying being on the water and mastering the art of sailing, and the powerboat for when I wanted to go somewhere on the lake.

I'll tell you this: One criticism of the lake we're on (Lake St. Clair) is it's lousy with powerboats. Well, not anymore it's not. A great number of them are staying tied up, these days.

Jim


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

There was a review of the IP SP cruiser in the May issue of the Blue Water sailing magazine.
http://www.bwsailing.com/01articles/issue/0507/bwb_island_packet_sp_cruiser.htmhttp://www.bwsailing.com/
This is what they said (among other):
"As a kind of hybrid cruising boat that can motor efficiently, sail acceptably and motorsail with real aplomb, the SP Cruiser is destined to be seen as a leader in the evolving world of cruising boat design."
The article is available on-line. My summary of the article is: You can sail in stronger wind, but you will be motorsailing most of the time. 
BWS was positive about the boat, but there is a ful page add of the SP Cruiser in every issue if BWS since SP came out.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

TrueBlue, From my limited knowledge of women, I know that this is a tough fight to win. You do have several options before surrendering. All of which have been mentioned in this thread. 

If the truth be known, one of the main reasons I own a catamaran is because my admiral was uncomfortable about heeling. It wasn't the end of the world but it's taken some getting used to. I'm now two years into the great catamaran experiment and can now say it's a fantastic success. I've come to love the boat, more importantly so does she and there's no going back now. Yes the motion is different, but you quickly get used to it. You also get used to fast sailing and lot's of room aboard.

This isn't a post meant to fan the flames of mono vs catamaran. I'm just here to say that life is about compromises and owning a catamaran actually is pretty cool.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Vicky, Great inspirational story and thanks for sharing. Your husband is a lucky man.


> TrueBlue, I know you've heard this before, *"It's harder to find a good boat than it is a good woman".* Let your conscience be your guide, I did not say this, I was not here.


Ian - You're absolutely right on the mark and my conscience has been the guiding force - even when faced with the grim possibility of crossing over to the dark side again.


> To me, a powerboat is mainly only good for getting from Point A to Point B quickly and (one hopes) with minimum fuss. Running around the seas with a powerboat, for the sheer fun of being on the water, interests me not in the least. For _that_ I want a sailboat. Period.


Agreed Jim - and the main reason why I bought True Blue. Have you ever had to service and winterize twin 454 Magnum engines? I'm a DIYer and GOD did I feel so displaced doing that and never would I ever return to rely soley on big twin engines. Sailing cleanses the soul.

Incidently, The IP cruiser seems to be a rehash of a Nauticat motorsailer . . . why would I give up what I have (nearly paid off) to go 400,000 in debt?

Rick, Thanks for sharing your catamaran experience. I know of the motion, since we chartered one off the Keys a few years ago . . . quite different than monos - but as you said, one could get used to it.

Normally I'm not sitting in front of the computer on a Saturday morning - usually on the boat with my loving wife.

But today, this is a good thing, because while hanging on the boat last night after work, my wife said she had an epiphany. She hugged me tightly while relaxing in our comfortable pilothouse and said: "Let's keep the boat - I know how much it means to you". She's taking sailing lessons in hopes of overcoming her fears and suggested that we go sailing.

The boat's 5 minutes from the house, so we're home packing up for a 2-day sail in the Bay . . . just wanted to share my joy. No powerboats are in my immediate future.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Ahhhh...good TB...now don't heel too much this weekend!!


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

Congrats TB...i was feeling your pain. Sounds like your wife really loves you and is willing to push ahead! Heeling is an unatural feeling for lots of people. It kind of goes against the natural feeling of the body...not to tip over in water! I took a friend out last summer and he hated it....he's stuck with power boats. For me it feels more natural than standing on land. I actually get " land sick" when i get off of boat after a few days of being on the water, but have never gotten seasick. I hope you have an awesome cruise....try to avoid going upwind under sail 
P.S My boat is 2 1/2 hrs away...everytime i try to get my wife to go...she conveniently goes out and parties with her freinds until 2am, thus she is too tired and hungover to go! Dammit!!!!


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Southerncross it's interesting you mentioned that. For those of us in more recent relationships I wonder if they noticed the same thing I did. Women love the idea that you sail. They can't wait to get involved. Once the romance morphs to relationship sailing slowly disappears off their radar. 

Is this just my experience?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Let the main out and sail flat, relax, sail to the wife, not to weather.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> But today, this is a good thing, because while hanging on the boat last night after work, my wife said she had an epiphany. She hugged me tightly while relaxing in our comfortable pilothouse and said: "Let's keep the boat - I know how much it means to you". She's taking sailing lessons in hopes of overcoming her fears and suggested that we go sailing.


Yay!  That's good news to hear, TB! And you can tell you wife I said you're a lucky man.

Hopefully the sailing lessons work and she ultimately becomes one with sailing. If she can get comfortable and knowledgeable enough to observe and feel what the boat's doing, y'all should be good to go.

Who knows: Maybe she'll even turn into a *gasp* _sailor_! 



Jim


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

TrueBlue,
Well, that is good news. I have not commented until now on what seems mostly a marital issue; I have enough on my plate with my own wife to occupy me to be dispensing advise to others.

I had thought, as a practical matter, that you might want to get her out, on her own, in a small boat-maybe even just a sunfish-and let her get wet. Sometimes, the tipping over experience is positive, in that it can be seen that nothing bad really happened. I was also going to suggest some live man-overboard drills, with your wife being the MOB. Bobbing about, waiting for your recovery, might leave her with a sense that this really isn't so bad. So people, good swimmers in their own right, have a fear of deep water and, hence, a fear of ending up in it. They know rationally that they'll have to swim as if they were in 6 feet of water, but still fear it. The only solution I know is to go over the side for a lap or two around the boat. Diving off the fantail each night also might help.

I would hope that these experiences might make the prospect of heeling, and ending up in the drink, more palatable. I sincerely hope it works out for you. I often sail alone, but much prefer the company of my wife. If I didn't I'd still be driving freighters and would be a heck of a lot richer than I am not now! (g)


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

My vote, if I had one, would be to let her deal with it.

You do what you can for a woman, but sometimes they just have to come through for you, and that's all there is to it. If something really is important to me then I think my woman needs to buck up and deal with it, in this case she'd have to get out there on the water and conquer her fear, and take it like a man. A man does what he can, but he can't give up everything for a woman. That is what I would hope someone would tell me if a woman was trying to make me give up my dreams. And it would be for the best too, because all I would end up doing is resenting her, and that's not good for anybody.

Edit, oh, and nevermind, I see she came through for you.  She's a keeper.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

I thought I would finally respond here as another female. First, I am glad I am not married to wind_magic. That attitude was dead 20 years ago. Second, yes this forum can be unfriendly to women.
There are many great suggestions here when one weeds them out especially from the other women that have responded here. I echo what they say. Finally I empathize with the men here. I see it all the time at the marina and yacht club. 
I try to take out the wives/GF and other women who don't sail when I can. I understand where their heads are at. I find the key is to make it fun and first impressions is everything. With newbies we have food party of some sort before we ever leave the dock. This gets them accustom to the boat. It gives the women a chance to ask questions about the boat and sailing in a relax atmosphere. It is here that I start in a subtle way to teach what each piece of equipment is. All those sheets and lines are intimidating. As for healing, I have a tongue depressor in my sail-bag, and explain the fat boy on the teeter-tatter. This will show them the boat won't flip over. If they still don't get it, I am fortunate enough the boat yard is next door and show them the keel (fat boy). 
Control - As some of the women here have pointed out, we feel we don't have total control of the situation here. True. I show them how to control the boat. If the heel is uncomfortable I show them how to spill the wind from the sail. It is easy for us to let out the sheets vs pulling them in to make the boat go faster. This way they control the heel. For first timers I only go out with main and no jib unless the wind is less than 8 knots. Most boats fail in design for us women to have a place to brace when heeled over ( short legs). Therefore once again we feel unsafe. Here stern seats come in handy. I love the stern seats on the transoms. Especially the wrap around ones. Even the frightened ones can feel safe here. I make them comfortable too with padding on the transom rail and seat cushions. 
Helm control - I always let them helm the boat. Gentle coaching(no yelling) and let them find their own groove. If the boat runs up, so be it. No big deal. If the boat jibs, ( I only put the boom out 50=60 degrees) no big deal. We learn from mistakes. This teaches them not to be afraid of the boat nor can they hurt the boat. When things get out of hand I sometimes heave-to and let things settle down. 
Docking - I find a empty T dock put out 6 fenders and let them to at it. I go over first the physics of docking by doing power drills on how the boat turns. Then go over how wind and current effects the boat and show them (takes about 1/2 hr to do this). Everything slowly. 
This is just some of the stuff I do. So far it seems to work. 
Good Luck!
Melissa


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Ummmm ..... Wind_magic let me guess.... single?


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Beautiful Bob had one for the house and one for the boat. Both companions, each aware of the other, were content.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

As usual, I will resist any attempts at political correctness and allow as how i see a great deal of truth in Wind Magic's point. And that attitude did not go anywhere; the expression of it has only been suppressed. The way my wife get's what she wants is completely different than the way I get what I want. An unwillingness to compromise on either party's behalf will indeed lead to resentments. Those resentments have consequences.

The rest of Melrna's post is quite good advise, although I might question exactly what, and the advisability of, feeding a new to sailing individual prior to sailing. If upchucking the contents of one's stomach were a part of learning to make love, it is doubtful that any of us would be here. (g)

What specifically about sailnet is unfriendly to women? There is a whole "hersailnet" that is lightly populated and, in fact, without the male comments would probably not exist at all. Is it the fact that men comment on it that inhibits it's growth? Rather than being defensive, I'd truly like to know what makes sailnet "unfriendly" to women. Please exclude any references to bulldogs, solar panel aiming devices, and the state of Israel in your response. (g) I think I've got a handle on those "unfriendly" topics. (vbg)


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

I will try to answer Sailaways 21 questions
1. I feed the girls to help out with seasickness. I learn in the aviation business that a stomach with something in it is better than an empty one. When one starts to get queasy the acids in the stomach start to come out. If there is nothing in the stomach to neutralize it it will aggravate the stomach more and motion-sickness will get worse. Nothing greasy nor no alcohol. Of course I cheat a little with ginger cookies and ginger ale to drink. 
2. Attitude between spouses is different in all relationships. Those views can be broken down by which generation one comes from, your value systems, and past experiences. The views of women here from most of the guys reflects most men here in their mid 50's and beyond. In any relationship there are three courses of action: one way, compromise or sacrifice. How ones decides is complicated and not for this forum. 
3. Her Sailnet - Comments - Lets just say sometimes the comments are too colorful. For example what wind_magic said. It is that attitude that most women I fear don't sail. In Her Sailnet yes the guys do comment but sometimes those comments can be crude. I.E. back in Jan when I put out a post about the women's sail convention. I rarely post anything there anymore because it is Her Sailnet not the guys. If I want a comment from the guys, I will ask in another forum. While most of the guys comments are good some are not. I think most of the women here feel the same and use other sites to asked questions without all the bravado.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

hglad said:


> TrueBlue,
> You asked what kind of sailing wife I have become. I guess I am still in transition.
> I met and married my husband in 2000. I retired and we sold everything and sailed from Portland, OR to Tracy Arm, Alaska. and back to Portland. This passage lasted a little under a year. Living on our sailboat (Nordic 40) and trying to adjust to a very different lifestyle was difficult for me. There were so many things that frightened me....weather, rough seas....mostly the sails. I really did not want to learn how the whole sailing process worked.
> When we returned to Portland, I went back to work and I encouraged my husband to continue his sailing dream. He sailed to Ixtapa, Mexico and from there to Hawaii and back to Portland, OR. We really did not think we would be sailing again and sold the boat. Life continued.
> ...


If you can get up that far, Prince William Sound is a beautiful place to spend a summer.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SEMIJim said:


> Sometimes you have to compromise. (Often that seems to mean she gets her way, doesn't it? .)
> Jim


Sorry, Jim, but if you have to compromise like this, you're with the wrong person. If you haven't noticed by now, men get involved with the women they like, and want them to remain the same as they were day one---Pretty, thin, lotsa of sex, laugh at your jokes, you know, carry on. But women usually want a fixer project, and the day after the wedding will generally start driving wedges between you and your dreams, the people you hang out with, your hobbies, ***** about the way you dress and how you eat, and a long list of other items along these lines. Women generally can't leave well enough alone, and once they start extortion tactics on you, ******** and good life goodbye. There'll be a zillion pussies reading this that know I'm right, but don't have the balls to either say anything or dump their s/o. And to those, I say *******, you deserve to live on a chain and in misery. But to the others that have the fortitude and balls to walk out the door, congratulations. Your new life has begun--Enjoy it. Keep the boat and find someone else. It's really quite simple.....

Rick


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Shesh Rick.. why don't you tell us how you really feel? 

An interesting point of view... I admit that parts of your post pretty much describe my life. Seriously though, I'm curious how you would define a successful relationship??


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Rickm505 said:


> Ummmm ..... Wind_magic let me guess.... single?


How did you know that ? 



Melissa said:


> First, I am glad I am not married to wind_magic. That attitude was dead 20 years ago.


Good call, I would not want to be married to me either.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

RickLaPaz said:


> Sorry, Jim, but if you have to compromise like this, you're with the wrong person.


That was a _joke_, Rick. That's why the  was there.

As for the remainder of your remarks: Perhaps if you chose your mates more wisely, you'd enjoy more satisfactory relationships.

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Melrna said:


> I thought I would finally respond here as another female. First, I am glad I am not married to wind_magic. That attitude was dead 20 years ago.


Balderdash! Naturally, it works both ways, but he's right in that it is not reasonable for _either_ partner to expect the other to _necessarily_ give up their dreams and ambitions "just because."



Melrna said:


> Second, yes this forum can be unfriendly to women.


My not being a woman is perhaps the reason I don't see it. What I _do_ see is a forum dominated by sailors. There is, at present, more male sailors in the world than female sailors. So, naturally, a sailing forum is bound to be (somewhat) dominated by male attitudes and behaviours. Would you think it reasonable for men to enter a female-dominated venue and complain that environment was male-unfriendly because it was "too female?" (Excuse me for _assuming_ not.)

Furthermore, some of your comments, here and in your follow-up, smack of the very sexism you protest. For example: I have known men that are absolutely intolerant of salty language, and women that could make a sailor blush. Never mind the "ageism" you display, suggesting Sailnet is dominated by old farts with prehistoric attitudes. Ironically, _this_ Neanderthal was taught from an early age to speak civilly in mixed company.

In sum, I find certain of _your_ remarks equally as off-base as those of a couple of the male contributors to this thread.

Sounds like your "sailing classes for persons of the female persuasion" are very good, tho. Well done. You are to be commended for putting forth the effort.

Jim


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## thedudeistoocool (Jun 25, 2007)

TrueBlue

I don't know you or your wife but is there a slight possibilty that she is really afraid of heights and not the heeling. You say it's only 5' to the waterline but to an acrophobe 5' is a looooong way down. I used to not be able to get my father past the 3rd rung of a 12' ladder and he would make up all sorts of excuses "this ladder isn't steady" "it' too old" " I don't think it can support my weight" took me years to get him to admit a fear of heights and now he's fine with being afraid. I was very proud of him when I manged to coax him to the top of the St Augustine lighthouse course he wouldn't come out onto the catwalk and sort of wedged himslef into the little nook to "study the really neat machinery" but he went all the ay up and all the way down without freaking out too much

This is just a thought and I'm probably wrong but I wish you the best and hope everything works out for you

Kevin


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SEMIJim said:


> That was a _joke_, Rick. That's why the  was there.
> 
> As for the remainder of your remarks: Perhaps if you chose your mates more wisely, you'd enjoy more satisfactory relationships.
> 
> Jim


Missed the joke face, Semi, but you also missed with the assumption that I need a better _mate_ and a more satisfactory relationship. My posting has absolutely nothing to do with _my_ life, and has to do with _life._

Your mileage may vary.........


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Joking around aside, it is hard sometimes.

I have had to let go of a number of women because they simply didn't want the same things I wanted, to our mutual disappointment. In all cases it started out well but then over time the more I listened to what they were saying, the more I realized that it just wasn't going to work, that what they wanted really was completely different than what I wanted and that there would be no practical way to compromise. And so I have let a number of women go with smiles and best wishes for their future success, even with hopes that they will find a man who wants the same things that they want. In most cases that has been to "settle down", to start a family, and much of the rest of what women are generally interested in. And that's fine, I am not a woman, and I do not know what goes through their minds, I cannot say their dreams are not valid. But their dreams are *NOT* my dreams, I come fully equipped with my own dreams that are just as valid, that come out of my own experience, dreams that I had before I met them. And I don't see any reason I should have to give them up.

I am basically happy on my own. I have had plenty of opportunity to give up the things I want and get married, but I never did. And I get razed for being single sometimes, and that's fine, I doubt I will ever marry at this point. I am just having too much fun doing what I want to do. Some of us were just made to roam I guess.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Rickm505 said:


> Shesh Rick.. why don't you tell us how you really feel?
> 
> An interesting point of view... I admit that parts of your post pretty much describe my life. Seriously though, I'm curious how you would define a *successful* relationship??


To quote one of our ex Pres', I guess you need to decipher and define what the word _successful_ in a marraige or relationship is, is. Since I'm fifty and was born and raised on the beaches of L.A., I've seen stuff that would curl many people's toes, the MTV crowd and maybe even Larry Flynt. This place just attracts some of the most bizarre people in the world, discounting perhaps the East Germans and some certain Soloman Islanders. Whatever. But I think the bottom line, at least as far as I've deduced, runs like this;

1). Best friends, lovers, and s...mates. (I despise that last phrase to the nth degree, but you get my drift). If you can't stand to wake up to your spouses face or voice any more, if you find yourself changing the trans fluid on your car twice a week 'cuz you can't stand to be around them, or if leave work at 1700 but park down the street for 90 minutes sucking on a flask of Wild Turkey before you pull in the driveway 'cuz you know that it's gonna be another s-fight once you open the front door, then you're f'd. Completely screwed. You've already gone too far and the only thing to do is to book a one-way flight to the island of your choice, or commit Sepuku in the city park at sunrise. I'd recommend the former, but our Asian guests here may go with the latter. Their call.

But if you are fortunate enough to find someone like that, as I did 23 years ago, then you're golden. Very difficult to find, but pure platinum when you do. Neither of us compromise much 'cuz it's just fruitless and stupid. We're both a bit stubborn and set in our ways by now, but luckily our ways pretty much parallel each other. Careers, sex, xlnt kids, big boat, traveling, sex, food, sex, where the hell to go in a few years time, music, sex and money. It just works for us, with not a lot of effort on either's part. Almost, (but not remotely as boring) as a good auto pilot.......

2). Compatability in a large majority of subjects is mandatory. Hobbies, food, geographic location of residence, traveling, RELIGION, (politics I could personally give a crap about), SEX, definitely #1, and use and generation of money and credit, definitely #2, amount of any of future children and the old 5 year, 10 year, twenty year plan thing like most people discuss eventually. Drugs, drinking, amount of time spent dealing w/the in-laws and a myriad of other stuff. The more compatible you are in the ten big or fifteen big things right off the bat, and BEFORE getting married, the better the odds are that you will not be stuck in divorce court some day, giving away half of everything you own and paying vaginamony for umpteen years. This right here is another great reason why men should not get married, but many still do, despite the odds of them lasting. When the divorce rate in California is about 70 percent, then the smart investors take their money elsewhere and play a different market. Just makes sense, both emotionally and financially.....

3). To summarize, I strongly advocate bending as little as possible and stop the compromising. WTF is that all about? _"I'll go to this stupid wedding so that you'll have sex with me next Sunday? Loan my brother $5k and I'll buy you a tennis bracelet? If you buy a boat then you have to buy me a boob job?"_ I mean seriously, cut the b-s. It's unneccessary, it's ridiculous and it's demeaning. Whoever the hell here started this "I have to sell the boat" thread ought to be ashamed. Dump the wife, go your seperate ways and enjoy the last few days of your lives before it's too late.

Unless you believe in reincarnation. In which case, I can't help you......

(Oh, and for those of you still paying attention, try this. The only reason that the Missus and I are still together is because we _never_ got married. A lot of you guys out there should ponder that one before walking down the aisle. )........

Rick


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

CBinRI said:


> Maybe the solution is as simple as trying a stiffer boat. I have found that since buying a boat with a five ton keel, our friends who are heel-averse are much more relaxed.


Or sprinkle some viagra on the current boat.

With all this talk about powerboats, gotta ask. Have you ever had a power boat on plane, and proceeded to turn? They tend to heel, to their ears if you get sporty, and you're goin' a lot faster too. You're tellin' us she's okay with that?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Melrna,
Thankyou for responding.

Your first two points I wholly understand and appreciate.

Your third point I am not sure I comprehend. I did review your post of January and noted that, in addition to there being no female responders, it did go off the rails rather quickly, no doubt due to the unintended consequences of the use of the word camaraderie. I myself have found it necessary to remove that wonderful word from my lexicon due to the inadvertent images it conveys on sailnet. All in all, i would have been much happier if the owner of that nom de plume had chosen "impotence" for his sailnet and boat name, a word I avoid diligently. (g) But, it is what it is, and I am sure that it's owner derives great satisfaction from being associated with feelings of fraternity.

It seems that you yourself have no problem in asking and responding to questions in a male dominated site and that is commendable. Many lurkers, male and female alike, are not so confident and that is unfortuante because the entire focus is educational, albeit with few grades being handed out. I would then question the marginal utlity of sailnet's hersailnet. Is it perceived as the coffee klatch for the "little woman", for discussion of traditionally female subjects? If so, it seems to serve no purpose as those subjects seem to transcend gender in sailing and those women interested in sailing, such as yourself, seem quite willing to come out and play with the boys in the rest of the forums.

Had other women responded to your post in hersailnet I am quite sure that a few well placed words would have been sufficient to broom away the too colorfull comments. I am sure that they would have been defended by the more chivalrous members of sailnet who would have respected the right of hersailnet to be more of a feminine nature. But the fact remains that there were no female responders and, nature abhoring a vacuume, male responders filled the space. I am not the only member to query, "where's the girls?" on hersialnet and receive little but silence. I suspect that most women on sailnet are similar to yourself and find their questions to be gender neutral and more easily answered on the other forums, begging the question once again of the usefullness of hersailnet.

The colorfull comments you find inhibiting, along with the bravado, seem to be part of the warp and woof of life. I am sure they can be an issue on the trucking sites along with those sites devoted to racing, sky-diving. well drilling, coal mining, airplane flying, rocketry, military service, the restaurant industry, construction work, academia, medical science, and the rest of the professions and pursuits of man in a world where approximately 50% of the inhabitants are not men. In my experience, a gentle reproof by the woman is usually sufficient to eliminate the comments that may be over the line, with it generally being wholly supported by the majority of the men. My problem is that I have trouble finding the bravado you speak of. A brief look at the current postings reveals that one of the most viewed revolves around "how I screwed up" or something and the most utilized forum is "Gear and Maintenance" where members of both sexes, rather than displaying bravado, come out to ask, "what should I do?".

I suspect that, if there is a problem, it is that the majority of female sailors are not as commited to sailing as their male counterparts. This is not meant as a slight to those who are, it is merely a postulation that their numbers are significantly less than those who are male. The only solution to that is to enlist more serious female sailors or to accept that it is a male dominated field with all of the attendant flaws that implies.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

And a greater load of horse-pucky than post #111 I've never read. The icing on the cake surely has to be where the credit for the symbiotic relationship is given to the lack of marriage screwing things up. All those years I've wasted never knowing what the root cause of the male-female dynamic was! If I hadn't married her she'd probably let the dog out, instead of making me do it. Damn!, wisdom at last.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailaway21 said:


> And a greater load of horse-pucky than post #111 I've never read. The icing on the cake surely has to be where the credit for the symbiotic relationship is given to the lack of marriage screwing things up. All those years I've wasted never knowing what the root cause of the male-female dynamic was! If I hadn't married her she'd probably let the dog out, instead of making me do it. Damn!, wisdom at last.


I see you're not only in Michigan, but a candy-ass as well. Over here, the truths and facts are well known, and practiced by the savvy and the wise, the wealthy and well to do, the men that don't put up with crap because they fear they'll never getting laid by anyone else, have no game and are content to be the submissive, spineless spouse. Do yourself a favor, call your like-minded male friends this week and make plans to visit the testicle store. And bring lots of money, 'cuz you'll be starting from scratch. Hard to build a truck out of Play Doh

MeeeOwww........

Rick


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I will agree with Rick on this point, marriage can be a risky financial contract to enter into. You are essentially handing the state, and your wife, a signed contract wherein you agree to forfeit a large part of your future earnings for essentially no reason except that this is "how it's being done". The contract of marriage has become so burdened with legal non-sense and exposes a man to so much financial risk that it's almost surprising that any man would enter into such a contract by his own volition. Rather like putting a knife to your own throat during the ceremony just to prove to your wife that you trust her not to slice it open. A strange declaration of love.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I'm sure we've diverted enough from the original post so as to be incomprehensible. As always, I can be found in the AFOC thread for further profundities from the developmentally challenged.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailaway21 said:


> I'm sure we've diverted enough from the original post so as to be incomprehensible. As always, I can be found in the AFOC thread for further profundities from the developmentally challenged.


The perfect reply, Sir. Just what I expected from you. Some of us will catch up with you later in the *A*nother *F*emale *O*wns my *C*ajones thread tomorrow.

Say 5-ish?.......


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

A few points. Rick if you are lucky enough to find a partner where you both want the same things fine, but people change along with their wants & needs.

Ian so it is harder to find a good boat than a good woman - really? A good woman is worth far more than most boats.

TB. Ok poor me. You may have to change boats - having tried other options.

Seemingly you are committed to your wife, want to enjoy sailing, but she is unhappy with that boat.

Simple problem solving. I love you, you love me, how do we fix this so we are both happy? Instead of you worrying about it, make it her problem. What does she propose that you both can live with? Ain't one predominating over the other but two adults working to solve a problem.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TB if you see this post first after you get back DON'T read the rest of the thread. It would be a waste of your time.


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## 737sail (Apr 29, 2007)

*....perhaps it has nothing to do with the boat....*

...as a female, and an attorney (domestic), and thus devil's advocate, I would suggest that selling the boat and/or buying another may not smooth all the waters; maybe a few, at best...I simply suggest that you determine if, at this point in the relationship and in her life, she even wants anything to do with water/boats at all...who knows, maybe she wants some romantic dates on land, a weekend in Vegas, a trip to Florida, with nights in a hotel room, dinners with friends, at the house and not on the boat, etc....she may want to be "out of boats" for a while....if so, would she be OK with you keeping your boat and enjoying it as your individual time?, and maybe the two of you could find another joint past time, and/or you could assist her in establishing herself in an individual past time of her choice....The boat/sailing/boating is apparently your passion, at this point in your life and relationship, the question is, what's her passion?


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

737sail said:


> ...as a female, and an attorney (domestic), and thus devil


I'm with you so far. 

(oh come on it was a joke!)



737sail said:


> 's advocate, I would suggest that selling the boat and/or buying another may not smooth all the waters; maybe a few, at best...I simply suggest that you determine if, at this point in the relationship and in her life, she even wants anything to do with water/boats at all...who knows, maybe she wants some romantic dates on land, a weekend in Vegas, a trip to Florida, with nights in a hotel room, dinners with friends, at the house and not on the boat, etc....she may want to be "out of boats" for a while....if so, would she be OK with you keeping your boat and enjoying it as your individual time?, and maybe the two of you could find another joint past time, and/or you could assist her in establishing herself in an individual past time of her choice....The boat/sailing/boating is apparently your passion, at this point in your life and relationship, the question is, what's her passion?


I agree with you that it's best to find out what the real truth is and deal with it. Resentment is toxic, and most relationships are unsuccessful when based on martyrdom. Jesus being a notable exception.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Thanks Sailaway for that reply. I am not afraid to write here, I have been involved in the male dominate fields all my life (flying and sailing)and can handle myself quite well. I am unique in that way.
As far as Her Sailnet - I understand the purpose the administrator set out but it hasn't worked well from what I can tell. Basically the reasons I sited earlier and yes there not that many women sailors compared to men. I really cannot speak for the women that lurk here or occasionally write here. We women that do sail, sometimes puts up with the attitude of the men at the marina and yacht clubs. We don't have to put up with that attitude here, hence most women don't read, write or respond in this forum. We have other avenues to use where they can feel safe. 
As far as women sailors are concern, more and more each day we are taking to the waters. Boat manufactures, right or wrong, are changing their designs to attract more women to this great sport/lifestyle. The West Coast has a great program for women called WOW (Women on Water). It is huge and highly successful. I just wish the concept was expanded to other areas of the US. 
SailNet is a great forum. I learn a lot from it. Great questions are asked and than answered. Just sometimes it gets a little carried away from the objective. I personally can see over that. Most women maybe cannot. Just my humble opinion.


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## 737sail (Apr 29, 2007)

*True!*

I certainly did not mean to sound too harsh, but rather wanted to emphasize validating each partner's "individual balance", for lack of a better way to put things.

I would certainly hope that in all relationships each partner respects and supports their counterparts passion(s) (in that the passion(s) is/are generally not counterproductive), regardless of whether they embrace it or not. It is, at times, difficult to verbalize "where you are in the game"; the partners may not even be playing the same sport and, if they are, may not even be in the same stadium! and never acknowledge that....and inevitably someone ends up feeling "the doormat".

I can only speak for myself, and as I have noted in a couple of posts, I don't have much pride (hey, I am an attorney). A Hunter my hubby and I have; the monetary outflows provide us with this; noting that the priority of the reasons change over time and where "we are in life", both as partners and individuals: 1) the RV works for me in that the children and I can "camp out" in comfort on the boat when he is not around (i.e. getting more "bang for our buck"), and the children and I enjoy the boat and taking a break from the "daily grind" 2) sailing is a passion of his, and he gets to sail often - with either me and/or his friends, 3) we can take a couple of days away, the two of us, and it's peaceful, and, quite importantly, the sailboat 4) is marriage insurance (in that he gets to do something that he is passionate about.

If there came a point in time when I did not want to step foot on a dock again, I would let him know just that, and then 4 (b) and 2, by default, are prioritized....while a boat may be a "pricey" passion, I can think of many things that would be much costlier, both monetary and emotionally, on the relationship (crack cocaine, crystal meth, and another person come to mind)....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

So Melissa are you happily married?? and how old are you........and I know that is politically incorrect ha ha tic........Great post on helping ladies lessen their fears and thanks for the heads up on neturalizing the acids in the stomach Conrad(ABF)


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Melrna said:


> We women that do sail, sometimes puts up with the attitude of the men at the marina and yacht clubs.


"Sometimes?" I think perhaps you're being too kind. My wife and I noticed this problem right off the bat, when we began our boat-buying adventure. Sellers, brokers, sailors helping out with advice, all tended to address me, rather than her. I often found myself deferring to my wife with something like "You'll have to ask the Captain, over here. It's her money. She's the one buying the boat. It'll be her boat. I'm just crew."  At times, the person to whom we were speak would appear temporarily nonplussed by that.

She mentioned it once, early in the game. I reassured her that I thought of our boat-to-be as either "her" boat or "our" boat. That I wasn't thinking of her as "my" boat, just because others assumed I was the sailor and she was just along for the ride. I also explained, as I did up-thread, that perhaps men that behave this way can be given a bit of leeway in this respect--many of them perhaps haven't quite caught up to the idea of female sailors yet.



Melrna said:


> As far as women sailors are concern, more and more each day we are taking to the waters.


Despite the fact that more-and-more women are getting into the sport, it _has_ been, traditionally, a male-dominated domain. It takes time for things to change--even longer for peoples' attitudes and perspectives.



Melrna said:


> SailNet is a great forum. I learn a lot from it. Great questions are asked and than answered. Just sometimes it gets a little carried away from the objective. I personally can see over that. Most women maybe cannot. Just my humble opinion.


I mentioned this thread and the subject of this particular bit of thread drift to my wife. She hasn't a login here, but she does read selected threads. She hasn't noticed the issue. Then again: She doesn't read SN regularly and she was raised as an only daughter amongst four brothers, so... 

Jim


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

think about a motorsailer it takes a lot of moment to make it heel it u trim sails correctly u will get a nice easy ride .


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

conrat66 - I will keep my personal life, personal. I will say I am now somehow eligible for AARP! Uggggg. However, if you are proposing please send picture of boat and boat specs!


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

You tell him !


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Melrna said:


> However, if you are proposing please send picture of boat and boat specs!


ROFL!

Jim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

IMHO, in the best relationships, the two people both believe and support the other person's dreams and goals... and both contribute 100% to the relationship... cause on some days you don't quite make it...and then the 100% will still be there. 

My better half and I went through some of the most difficult things together, but through out the whole ordeal, we still had one of the most fulfilling and amazing relationships. She lost her fight with cancer six years ago. Yet, in the short time we were together, we saw more happiness than most couples I've known or met. 

I admire TB in his hope to reach a compromise with his wife. I can understand that some people are frightened by a heeling sailboat... and can't deal with it. For some it is a psychological problem, for others it is a physical one. Some of you poke fun at the fact that my boat has training floats, but that was a specific decision on my part so I could share my love of sailing with some of my best friends. The guy who was my best man has Cerebral Palsy, and usually uses a wheel chair to get around. I don't think he'd enjoy being on a sailboat at a 30˚ heel at all. So I got a trimaran.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Passion for sailing is an interesting box to be inside of.

I love my boat for multiple reasons... and I love sailing. But as I get older and have sailed thousands of miles, it's only the great days which excite me about sailing. In years past it didn't matter.. any day was perfect to be sailing.

And now the wife comes into my life... 14 years after I got the boat... and the dynamic is very different. I don't have the scratch the sailing itch as I once did... It is like home to us... as we live in an apartment. It gets us outside and into a very different environment. We keep the boat 100 miles from where we live. It's comfortable and can sail or motor well.

Wife does not have a thing for sailing. She has one for me and so she has adapted. On the other hand, I go to the boat alone a lot, she has no guilt and neither do I. When the weather is lovely or we have off... we spend in on the boat. She's overcome fears and I try to make her as comfortable as possible. Twelve days I could hit a lot of ports.... She is happy to spend a week in Newport.. doing land things and spending the evenings on the hook.

I don't feel frustrated. I got my boat for my own needs and interests. If it doesn't do it for her. So be it. Woulda been cool if she was totally into it. But she's not. But she's not jealous either and she's not insisting that I give it up.

Good wives are harder to keep that boats. Figure out what's important. You have to be completely open in these matters.

jef
sv shiva


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I've been away from this friggin computer for the last couple days, so didn't get a chance to stay current with remarks - nor do I have time this morning to respond to each post. For this I'm sorry - but I have a deadline project to complete before a presentation later today.

I must say though, that I certainly opened up a hornet's nest of mixed opinions and emotions. It truly is amazing how widely varied the attitudes of SailNet members who bothered to post are, in respect to their spouse's (or S/O's) sensitivities.

Rick La Paz - Your philosophy towards women is so foreign to mine - just cannot comprehend that level of egotism. But similarly to wind_magic's "me-first" solution to life, it's understandable why neither of you are in love or married.

To reiterate our relationship, we married in our very early 20's, three decades ago - raised two wonderful kids who are now becoming successful young adults. Had some rocky times of course - like most married couples, but since marriage, we have always done nearly everything together. We are an entity.

This is why I have struggled so with my wife's anxiety over sailing this obsessive boat of ours and may also explain my reluctance to ignore the fears she often exhibits - to selfishly cater to only my desires.

I must say however, that I believe this thread has been an effective conduit for expression of other people's views, external to her's and mine. Since she and I have followed these pages, her sensitivity to MY feelings during the last two days on the water, seems to have been enhanced. It's like, although not a complete acceptance yet, she has at least tolerated sailing - more so than some other times sailing together.

Granted, we did not go out on Saturday but stayed at the marina. It was a good call on my part, since sustained winds were 20-25 kts with 40-45 kt gusts on the Bay and offshore Atlantic. A friend's sailboat moored in Jamestown Harbor, broke free from the mooring and washed up on the rocks of Goat Island on Saturday. Many boats were also reported to have broken free of their moorings or dragged anchor . . . grounding along the shores of Great Salt Pond - Block Island. We heard of a large sailboat sinking there from a hard grounding - all due to the high winds that day. The salvage companies sure were busy on that day.

Sunday however, was very pleasant. We motored to Mackeral Cove Jametown in light headwinds, to avoid any windward sailing. Once there, we met and rafted up with our sailboat dockmates, while I suited up and went down to catch some lobster. A very calm wing-in-wing, downwind sail back, produced no heeling whatsoever - followed by a great lobster dinner back home.

There was no shouting, screaming or taking refuge in the pilothouse - only a closeness between us that seemed to renew our love of boats and being on the ocean together. Time will determine if this rejuvenation continues beyond this weekend.

I can't say for certain, but this thread has appeared to have been a contributing factor to her change of mind regarding selling of the boat - perhaps through a comparison of our issues with a cross section of other sailor's attitudes. She's at least willing to give it another try.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

I find it striking that guys who are the most eager to offer advice about how to keep your wife "in line" or that she should have to sublimate to your goals or interests are inevitably single. For me, it brings to mind the old Honeymooners episode where Ralph Kramden gives the young newlywed the "I'm the King of my castle" speech and nearly breaks up two marriages in the process. If your preference is to stay single, I respect that. But if you wish to commit to a long term marriage/relationship, I have found that accommodations must be made on both sides.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

TrueBlue - You put a smile on my face this morning. Glad to see things working out.  Good luck with you work project!


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> But similarly to wind_magic's "me-first" solution to life, it's understandable why neither of you are in love or married.


TrueBlue, you don't know a thing about me, and I would appreciate it if you didn't pretend to. I don't know why you guys think you can just write whatever you want like it doesn't affect anybody, I guess it is the nature of this forum. But people do actually read this *** when you say it, and you know what ... I didn't deserve that. *EDITED CAM - Profanity/Personal Attack. STOP!!*


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TB,
I'm going to give you some truly evil advice. It's based on my own real-life experience, so here it is... Before we were married, my wife told me that she did not care for sailing. Shortly thereafter, I decided to tell her that I was bi-sexual. Now, you may think that her dislike of sailing and my claim to being bi-sexual have nothing in common, but hang with me here. I told her that I would "give up men" if she would let me get a boat at some point in our future. Since I have absolutely no sexual desire for men, this was a painless concession to make. She thought I had made this incredibly profound change of heart for her, and furthermore, she still thinks she's reciprocating every time we go out on the boat. Every once in a while I'll sense that she thinks I never was bi-sexual, so I'll pick up a Playgirl at 7-11 and leave it on the nightstand with a bottle of Jergins and a pile of "used" Klenex. The next thing you know she's ready for a two-week cruise. Just trying to be helpful here. From me to you, baby...
Your friend,
Sailhog


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Hawg... just be thankful Giu isn't here to read that!! LOL


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Sailhog, your bent.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Cam, Simon: I am interested in solutions that work! TB, bust out the fur-lined handcuffs, start prancing around the house, and SOLVE THE PROBLEM!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

Sounds like a good weekend, and that things might be on the way to some sort of resolution. 

I did go sailing on Saturday... gusts were only up to 35 mph though.  We ended up anchoring out at Tarpaulin Cove and had dinner on the BBQ. Working on some video we shot that day later this week.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

sailhog said:


> Cam, Simon: I am interested in solutions that work! TB, bust out the fur-lined handcuffs, start prancing around the house, and SOLVE THE PROBLEM!


That should do the trick.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Blue,<O</O
I had an experience this weekend.
Rain all day on Sunday, but it was the Chicago Air and Water Show.
So rain or not, I got to be out there.<O</O
We motor out to the anchorage in some sloppy seas.<O</O
My wife is doing something down below, while talking to me standing on the companionway stairs; some seas roll us.<O</O
She went head over heals down to the bottom of the cabin and landed flat on her back. Bruised her knee pretty good, she said she wanted to cry but held the tears in. She was crabby for a couple of hours but bounced back in no time.<O</O
I thought for sure she was going to ask me to sell the boat, but she didn't. I lucked out.<O</O
Took her out in the pouring rain for nothing (The Air Show eventually was cancelled) and she got hurt. I thought I was a goner. <O</O
<O


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

TJK, me too. Watch out for the boom!










Don't tell anyone, alright? Just between me and you.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Trueblue - Hope it continues to go well, this thread is going to help me teach my girl friend how to sail. I've got a lot of ideas to play with now. We've been dating for about three months and I have put off taking her sailing because it's just hot and still this time of year. I still go out with a buddy, but we've die hards. I'm wiating for a cooler and breezier time, so that her first time out will be fun. When it cools down I'll start teaching her how to sail.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Melrna - thanks, glad I made you smile . . . and I finished the project on time.

wind_magic . . . I think you need to lighten up. Sorry if I offended you though.

Sailhog - You're not a sick puppy, and that seems like a perfectly normal thing to do to get your wife to go sailing . . . why didn't I think of it. 

SD - I didn't go out to actually check wind speeds on Saturday, but friends who were out there told me they recorded 40-45 kt gusts at the entrance to Narragansett Bay. I'm looking forward to your next video.

Ouch TJK and BF - that had to hurt the knee and nose (respectively), pretty badly.

Thanks danjarch and best of luck with your gf's sailing lessons.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> wind_magic . . . I think you need to lighten up. Sorry if I offended you though.


We're cool, it just struck me the wrong way at the time.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Just trying to be helpful here. From me to you, baby...
> Your friend,
> Sailhog


If you ever come home late from sailing, you could just say you were blown offshore by a Nor'Easter.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Ah, Nor'Easter... Playgirl's 1998 Playmate of the Month...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I recall that Nor'Easter . . . or was it Nor'Ester? She delivered quite the hard blow to unexpecting sailors.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Those poor souls... you hear stories like that and it makes you want to take Nor'Ester down to some shoddy little no-tell motel and f*** the shi* out of her.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Geeeze sh . . . at times your morality line is set a bit too low for my comfort level.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

You're not alone... my wife, daughters, dog, mother, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, friends -- ALL OF THEM, seem to think I'm some kind of pervert. What is up with that? Makes you wonder how so many people got the wrong idea about me... hmmmm...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Umm... maybe it isn't the wrong idea... if all of us have the same idea about you... 



sailhog said:


> You're not alone... my wife, daughters, dog, mother, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, friends -- ALL OF THEM, seem to think I'm some kind of pervert. What is up with that? Makes you wonder how so many people got the wrong idea about me... hmmmm...


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Sailingdog,
You need to judge me by what I say, not by what I do. If you would stop judging me by my actions for a minute, you'd see that I'm a pretty straight arrow.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Sailingdog,
> You need to judge me by what I say, not by what I do. If you would stop judging me by my actions for a minute, you'd see that I'm a pretty straight arrow.


Besides he has a cute granddaughter


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Freesail,
Thanks for the kind words. She's a precious little girl, and she's my daughter.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Freesail99 said:


> Besides he has a cute granddaughter


She must take after her mother...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

As an update on the "sell the boat" situation, I just now got into my office (10:45 am) after coming in from the marina. After work yesterday, my wife insisted that we spend an overnighter at our Prudence Island mooring - about 5 nm from the marina. Said it was a beautiful afternoon and we should take advantage of it . . . naturally, I agreed.

What completely blew me away was, just as I was about to untie the docklines she said: "Aren't you going to remove the sail covers?".

We had a wonderful sail all the way to the mooring, close reaching all the way in 8 kts of wind @ 5 - 5.5 kts GPS SOG. Not fast by any means, but she was smiling the entire way . . . I'm ecstatic!

After a calm night and a potful of French pressed coffee with "soysage" & eggs, we raised sail and headed back. Winds were slight again @ 5 kts and halfway back, since we were only making 3.5 kts, I said I'm kicking on the iron genny. She said "Don't start the engine". I agreed again - which is why I'm late getting back to work.

Can't explain the sudden reversal in my wife's attitude over my obsession. One thing I do know is, I'm not going to question her over this - just enjoy it with her as much as possible.

It's the small things in life that give me the greatest joy, in spite of the need to return to work on such a beautiful day.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

While I am happy for you and the turn of events. She may be reading your online post and just messing with you, lol. Glad to here you had a nice sail.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TB,
I'm sending you a great big stack of my Playgirls. Suggest you develop an interest in the music of Cher and Judy Garland.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

SH - Not going to bite that hook . . .  

I insist you keep those back issues for your own amusement - knowing how much you enjoy them. Thanks for the offer anyway.

Think I'll stick to my current music interests as well, as enticing as your "other" suggestions may be.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

I already sent the mags. They should be arriving at your home about now. I addressed the box in care of your wife, with a note that reads: "TB, Here are the magazines your requested/demanded..." Also enclosed some color swatches so that you can pretend to be taking an interest in interior decorating. Don't thank me. Just knowing that you'll eventually be able to keep the boat is thanks enough.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Someone did say that I will have to expect a BIG pay back for this turn of events . . . but this stuff is scaring the cajones off me.

Now where'd I put those back issues of Sports Illustrated and Field & Stream?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TrueBlue said:


> *Can't explain the sudden reversal in my wife's attitude over my obsession. One thing I do know is, I'm not going to question her over this - just enjoy it with her as much as possible.*
> It's the small things in life that give me the greatest joy, in spite of the need to return to work on such a beautiful day.


And you previously thought my reply to you was without merit?

Shame shame shame..........


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

If you're referring to this reply Rick:



> I strongly advocate bending as little as possible and stop the compromising. WTF is that all about? _"I'll go to this stupid wedding so that you'll have sex with me next Sunday? Loan my brother $5k and I'll buy you a tennis bracelet? If you buy a boat then you have to buy me a boob job?"_ I mean seriously, cut the b-s. It's unneccessary, it's ridiculous and it's demeaning. *Whoever the hell here started this "I have to sell the boat" thread ought to be ashamed. Dump the wife, go your seperate ways and enjoy the last few days of your lives before it's too late.*


Then I'm certainly glad I *don't *live by your set of rules.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If it really scares the cajoles off you, you may not need sailhog's help to develope an interest in Playgirl and interior decorating! Glad to hear she is either learning to enjoy sailing or at least pretending to. But if it's pretense, brace yourself for the payback!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I suppose it is inevitable on a sailing forum that we have people who feel their boat should be able to be more important to them than their wife. I do confess some perplexion on this because I feel that I, like most others, spent a lot more time in selecting my wife than my boat. And I have little doubt as to which relationship gives me more. I am unfamiliar with any relationships that do not involve compromise. Those that do not would seem to be either illusionary or shallow. YMMV.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

And keep this in mind: You can't have sex with your boat.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

And I'll bet you've tried


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Scratch that last post. Technically speaking, it simply isn't true.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Ragtime, A little sensitivity is OK, without risking any loss of masculinity. Tough crowd here today . . .


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Ragtime,
When someone says "thru-hull," I say, "sea cock." 

TB,
I'm just trying to present a plan that has been thoroughly tested by research.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TrueBlue said:


> If you're referring to this reply Rick:
> 
> Then I'm certainly glad I *don't *live by your set of rules.


I hope that in a few years that these words don't come back to haunt you, T/B.

But rest assured, Oprah's couch will still be available then. Should I call my people and make you a reservation?

I'm here to help...............


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You know, I've been away from this thread for a while, reading other things on the forum and living/working other things. I just read pages 14-17 and have decided I am selfish as hell, because I try my damndest to make the Admiral happy. If she ain't happy I'm not happy, and I have a thing for personal happiness! BTW we have been thru some mighty rough times in the past 43 years of marriage, including cancer (She beat it 30 years ago) raising teenagers, fear of heeling, and a few unmentionables, but a good wife is harder to find than a good boat. Make her happy enough, and she will grow to at least like sailing as long as you love each other. I'm one of the lucky ones -- as we came out the other side, she now either loves "Ragtime" or I am stupid enough that she has me fooled! Fair winds!


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

RAGTIMEDON said:


> . . . but a good wife is harder to find than a good boat.


Wise words Don, and the message I've been repeating thoughout this thread. Some guys however, believe that a wife's feelings - if not aligned with theirs, should be ignored. Love is obviously not a factor in these relationships.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Seeing as you've only had the boat three years, and the wife a good deal longer... keep the wife...sell the boat if she decides that she can't stand it... Tell her to send the box from sailhog back with "addressee unknown" marked on it. 

IMHO, my better half's happiness outweighed everything else in the world. Best decision in the world I ever made was asking her to marry me. Still wonder why she said yes sometimes.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Best decision in the world I ever made was asking her to marry me. Still wonder why she said yes sometimes.


Women like big-hearted men. Even when the men have floppy ears and bark at passing cars.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You know, TB, the guy that said "a good boat is harder to find than a good woman" is absolutely right: but I said a good WIFE is harder to find!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hey SD --do you chase cars too?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I would ask what changed her mind.

If she is only doing it for you there may come a time when problems will arise again. But in the mean time the both of you could work on overcoming the fear, anxiety, or the feeling of helplessness, whatever. I don't want to read the whole thread again, but IIRC she doesn't know how to sail(well). Maybe there would be a benefit to her taking some offshore sailing lessons with a class of women.

If she is doing it for herself as well then there might be some other compromise you could make. Maybe something simple like just not heeling as much??? The sailing lessons would come in very handy in this situation.

I would definately ask now while things are going good. Better now, before something causes a full blown argument. Those just aren't any fun.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Agree totally rewell6, and my urges to take sailing lessons are constant in our discussions of sailing fear remedies. I do know she is more relaxed in light winds - which have been the case with our last few days of pure sailing during the past 2 weeks. Guaranteed, when the winds pipe up to over 20 kts and seas kick up - the anxiety level will also. 

I've been very cautious in selecting sailing days and when to drop sail if conditions may get worse. Her suggestions to raise sail, also coincide with fair weather conditions - to no surprise. 

It seems as though she IS trying to find compromise - even though I have been talking to a broker, even to the point of reviewing his listing agreement. I've been reluctant to sign though - until I'm confident in her "true" attitudes towards sailing.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

RAGTIMEDON said:


> Hey SD --do you chase cars too?


nah, not anymore... she would get mad when I'd do that... and she made me stop using the trees in the back yard too...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Some people just aren't comfortable in the water. Or on the water from a fear of being in the water. The news always shows the bad stuff and never reports just how many people don't get hurt.

BTW did she happen to watch Jaws? I saw it at the drive in when it came out. We lived on St Pete Beach at the time. I was about 10 and I would say it scared the crap out of me. After years of therapy, meds and a fortune teller it doesn't bother me anymore. j/k about the last sentence.

I guess the water just grows on some people and not others. At the Olympic Youth Camp one of my friends who was from Lesotho (in the middle of South Africa) wouldn't even ride out to the Great Barrier Reef on the Charter boat. He couldn't swim and wouldn't even consider getting on the boat. There was about 175 of us on the high speed cat so it wasn't even a small boat.

It's the fear of the unknown and maybe a little 20,000 leagues under the sea.

As far as the lessons she might feel more comfortable if you took them with her. I know a bit of a waste. I would suggest if she takes lessons that she do it on her own for the confidence.

This could be much longer if I didn't keep deleting complete paragraphs and the wife wasn't putting on the pressure to vacuum.


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

*Sailing School*

Although I've noticed this thread, my subconscious kept me from reading it  Because I've been through the exact same thing.
Here's the story: Wife, kids, and myself have been sailing together for ~15 years in different boats. We've had rough weather and close encounters before, but this year something changed. We both think it's related to the size of our current boat we've had smaller boats before 28 - 30 feet LOA with a tiller, and she (wife) has felt in complete control of those boats ALWAYS. Our new (to us) boat is bigger (although still only 33') heavier and with a wheel - Last but not least we've had a lot of heavy weather this year. Point is that it made my wife fear heeling (or whatever) too. She knows it's irrational, and our kids really enjoyed the Rock'n'Roll this summer, so she felt stupid being scared too - To overcome her fears she started in sailing school and also sailed on a friend's 26 footer, and now she's able to put words on what she likes and dislikes AND feel in control. Feeling in control is probably the single most important thing for her (No comments please  ).
Morale is that sailing school and re-gaining confidence in her abilities to sail has helped, and we don't have to sell the boat, which we all love  
&#8230;And a warning to anyone just remotely considering commenting about music, Oprah and so on - Remember we're Vikings, drinking our beer out of the skulls of our enemies.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Tru, 

Point of fact everyone should be a bit more concerned when the wind pipes up... more forces... how about the words - more tension in the boat. Seas are tossing the boat about. Some find it thrilling, others find it a pain. Of course it's nothing to fear when you have confidence in the boat and the skipper. hat takes time and experience and some lessons are never a bad idea.

go for it.

jef


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## onremlop (Jan 13, 2007)

*I think your options are as follows:*

Keep your current boat and deal with the increased pressure from the wife by starting to drink heavily and hanging out in the garage more often.

Sell the boat to free up more time hanging around in the garage drinking heavily.

Keep the boat and divorce the wife. She will get the boat in the settlement.

Life is too short not to do what you love - even if it means getting a boat your wife will love sailing. An additional payment is cheap compared to going to a marriage counselor. Then, you might realize having two boat payments is no fun and you end up selling the first one. Hey, it's just stuff.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Onremlop really spells it out well. He's obviously a professional marriage counselor. Look closely at options 1 and 2.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Maybe he's one of RickLaPaz's multiple identities. 

"It's just stuff", including the wife - no big deal, right?


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

ok boys and girls, sit right down and you'll hear a tale. 

TheCuban and I are moving to to West Palm Beach. (soon, very soon) 
So, I list the tubs. couple of reasons (mooring balls within driving distance are about 4-600 per month, forget marinas, waiting list, almost no sailors, you know the drill.) plus trucking the holes in the water to Houston, splashing them and sailing across the gulf is not an "adventure" in my condition, it'd be a death sentance. 

Trucking? 5-6k for the catalina 27, I didn't even check on the others. 

Ok, So had a couple interested come up on Sunday... took them out, had fun. 
The boat was a bit small for their needs, so they aren't interested. 

When I get home, I tell thecuban that they aren't going to take it, she says "Good" .

blink, blink, blink... "I thought we'd decided..." (my first mistake of the day)

She says... "Don't sell the boats, I love them, you love them, its the only place on Gods green earth I can totally relax and think about nothing, and I really enjoy the time we have there together" as tears well up in those big brown cow eyes. 

sigh.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TrueBlue said:


> Maybe he's one of RickLaPaz's multiple identities.
> 
> "It's just stuff", including the wife - no big deal, right?


Nice try, T/B., but you're way, way off course.

BTW, I forgot to thank you for mis-quoting me last week. Maybe I'll have the gumption to clarify for you and our listeners later today. But in the meantime, I want you to think of a famous cat food commercial jingle from years ago. Need a hint which one I'm refering to?...............


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ROFLMAO... good to hear the Cuban is back...


cardiacpaul said:


> ok boys and girls, sit right down and you'll hear a tale.
> 
> TheCuban and I are moving to to West Palm Beach. (soon, very soon)
> So, I list the tubs. couple of reasons (mooring balls within driving distance are about 4-600 per month, forget marinas, waiting list, almost no sailors, you know the drill.) plus trucking the holes in the water to Houston, splashing them and sailing across the gulf is not an "adventure" in my condition, it'd be a death sentance.
> ...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

CP...sometimes they do confound ya don't they?!! (g)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> CP...sometimes they do confound ya don't they?!! (g)


whadda ya mean sometimes???


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

*They're sneaky!*

TB, I just read this WHOLE thread. And I have an Xwife that never liked the water or sailing. 20 years.... sigh.

Anyway disregarding some of the more sexist comments...

*SHE'S UP TO SOMETHING!!!!*  Women are SNEAKY like this! Yellow caution lights should be flashing and alarms sounding in the back of your mind!
MAYBE if after all of next season she's still okay w/ the sailboat thing and doesn't mind 20 kts of wind, MAYBE then you can relax and let down your guard a little.

Oh, and there are some wimmins that don't mind it; took a new lady friend out last fall in a 30' Lippincott, IE small/light! 25ish kts, gusts over 30, seas 2-3' + and she never blinked. steered, loved it, snuggled down against me and practically purred!


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

confounding is one way to put it. 

I've been told that I am her Oak Tree... and she is a Hurricane. While she spins like a whirling dervish, I stand. While she forges a serpentine path of madness, meyhem and confusion, I stand. 
When she looks about, and everything is a bit off-kilter, mussed up, and in the midst of uncertainty, I stand. She takes my hand and we walk together until the storm boils over once again. 
All in all, it ain't a bad thing.


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

Nice symbolism CP, glad she wants you AND the boats!


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Subliminally, the anaolgy of an oak tree is more likely supplanted by the very erect mast of CP's C27.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

or... the dual, carbonfiber, freestanding, unstayed masts of a certain Freedom 33.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

That cat-ketch design sure was revolutionary, but shortlived.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

CP, I'd feel sorrier for your plight, but I've seen pictures of the cuban. Truck the boat to havana if she wants.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

RickLaPaz said:


> And you previously thought my reply to you was without merit?
> 
> Shame shame shame..........


I wouldn't call it "without merit", but it was at one end of the spectrum. Marriage shouldn't be so much about the concessions you have to make (although it is natural to make a few in the course of events) but the dreams and the realities you are prepared to share. My wife, to put it bluntly, doesn't have the typical female mind (must be the science degree), and while she can be aggravating as hell at times (not to mention messy as a male college student), she isn't prone to caprice, and once she agrees to a course of action (like buying a boat only suitable for offshore!), I don't hear a peep as the house fills up with specialized gear and the joint account gets cleaned out.

I realize that I'm lucky and that this is fairly rare in sailing spouses...but maybe that's the key: She's the co-owner and co-captain and co-mortgagee. It's her boat as well, and she sails it. I want her to get off her ass and take more courses, because there is an experience gap between us, but I don't question the abilities she has, nor her willingness to go forward on a wave-washed deck to free a line, or to leap off the gunwhales with a boat hook in one hand and a mid-ship line in her teeth to make a docking. She's five feet tall and 110 lbs. of Napoleonic fearlessness and if she wasn't behind this goal, it wouldn't be happening.

TB, I would encourage you to let the wife drive in light air, to handle lines and to let her dock. A few blemished fenders is a small price to pay for her to gain confidence, and hopefully, interest in a lifestyle you can share.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> I've been reluctant to sign though - until I'm confident in her "true" attitudes towards sailing.


I will say I find this bit a little troubling as it smacks of manipulation: is she wanting to see if you would actually sell your amazing boat before she pulls back and gives the opposite signals?

I could sell my boat if my wife was truly terrified (OK, maybe I'd just get a dinghy for daysailing solo!), but I would be less accommodating if I thought it was just a bullshit way for my wife to determine how my affections ranked and her place in the line-up.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I don't think it's manipulation at all Mark - she is trying very much to enjoy the sailing aspect and as I previously described, has shown a sincere appreciation of_ light wind sailing._

The point I was making was, her attitude may change when conditions become more favorable to me - such as enough wind to actually sail at hull speed. I have been putting off listing the boat until the negative results of that test are possibly revealed again. Hopefully they never will.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TB,
If I remember correctly, you have a son and a daughter, don't you? Have you shared your dilemma with them? If so, what does they think?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

SD,
Son and his wife live in Charlotte, NC - actually just had their first child and our first grandchild this morning at 2:00 am - kinda tired, but excited. He loves the boat and looks forward to sailing with his Dad each time he comes up to visit. His feelings are - we should keep it.

Daughter still lives on the Bay and will for some time - since she and her S/O bought a house together. She also sails with us frequently, has gone on extended trips to the Vineyard with us as well. She cries (figuratively) whenever Mom talks of selling. 

The odds are stacked up against Mom 3:1 . . . but it's not an election I'm faced with, but strong emotions.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I meant SH, not SD - sorry for the insult hawg < g > no sleep last night.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Hey...congrats Gramps!


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Thanx cam! 
Still don't like the sound of that though . . . too young for the title.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Tru

You can't get rid of that title now... get used to it!

I think the boat stays and this will blow over.

Fall sailing is coming and ain't that sweet.

jef
sv shiva


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TB,
Congratulations, Captain!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Congrats Grandpa Blue


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

TB,

First of all.... CONGRATULATIONS GRANDPA!!

Second of all... this thread is still going on?? I can't believe it. I have not read it all, but I am certain the advice reads: GO BUY HER A CATALINA. Fine sailing machine. Good looking. Will turn heads at the yacht club. Lots of envy. Plenty of room for BBQ grills.

Make her happy.

- CD

PS I think it even comes with sails and a mast? I have not installed them yet.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

CONGRATULATIONS!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

I guess you now qualify as a CODGER now...


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Two boat loans, owning neither of them, at a time of economic instability?

Not for me.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I've already established the idiocy of that idea Rockter - I agree fully. Having a wife and mistress in waiting can make a normally logical man do the illogical.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Thanks to all the congratulatory replies - life can be grand at times. The kids however, choose to refer to me as Pepe', the wife as Meme' . . . still signifies I'm getting older. :-(


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

It beats the alternative... you could be daisy food instead... 


TrueBlue said:


> Thanks to all the congratulatory replies - life can be grand at times. The kids however, choose to refer to me as Pepe', the wife as Meme' . . . still signifies I'm getting older. :-(


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Congrats TB, don't worry, I've got 6 of 'em with more to come I'm sure and I don't feel or act any older.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> Thanks to all the congratulatory replies - life can be grand at times. The kids however, choose to refer to me as Pepe', the wife as Meme' . . . still signifies I'm getting older. :-(


 Congras Pepe', is that the American version of Canadian French Pepe're? or another nationality? I'm betting Canadian French because you are near my neck of the woods, New Bedford.

Dennis


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Congratulations on becoming a grandfather ? Doesn't work for me.  

Ah go on with you, you know I'm joking TB. Best to you all.

Of interest, does the zimmer frame stow easily ?


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

Belated congratulations TB. 

And to translate for any 'ignorant Americans' out there: a 'zimmer frame' is what we call a 'walker' in the US.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Congratulations Tb!!!!!!!!!

All The Best


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

I read every post tonight. 

So you know I have no life.

I have so many comments but nothing to say.


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