# The Search Widens Before it Narrows



## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Before buying a boat was contingent on too many other things, picking out the right boat was easy. Because you knew actually owning it was a long way off. Now that almost all the contingencies are gone and the real search is on, I've found the list of possible "suspects" is widening.

As we visit brokers and they show us what they have, as we talk to other owners, our boat knowledge broadens. Makes and models we never considered or were even aware of and now being considered. Even though we've taken some possibilities off the list, the list is still longer than before.

It's kind of like walking into the nail salon with a few colors ideas in your mind only to find out the salon has just taken in a shipment of all new OPI colors.


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

I put together a lot of crazy spreadsheets and decision tree doodles during that process. I realized around that time that performance wasn't that important. As much as I dreamed about wet rails and white knuckle tacks, it was clear that I needed a family cruiser that could take a beating. I bought a sound boat that needed a lot of restoration, but mostly cosmetic.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

I have started my own search, which is still in the early stages, and as I work my way through the choices in hull, keel, sail configuration, motor, and everything else I narrow and widen and narrow again. In the end what I buy will have to be a compromise on all the features that I want in order to get what I need in a package that I am willing to spend the money to get. 

I spent an hour on the phone with the broker I trust on this earlier today, he and I have been working this out and we were discussing a couple of boats he is recommending, which are currently priced about $40k above where I want to be on price, but we both believe that this is going to go down a lot. I was looking at one, which recently sold, the original asking price was $75,600.00 and it sold at $15,000.00 a $60k difference in the price. My question to him is how that could possibly be, and his answer was that the seller was not in tune with the market and he finally got in tune with it. If you saw the boat you would be amazed that it went for that low of a price, and yet that is the state of the current economy and market, now that makes me nervous, because I hate to overpay for anything LOL.

Look, research, and when you find one do like I said in the other thread, offer a much lower price, and it will probably be accepted.

If anyone doubts, as some always do about the boat I am referring to they are welcome to PM me and I will send the link that shows the price and the original asking price. It was a very nice looking boat, but I have no idea as to what hidden monkeys may have been in the barrel to effect the overall price.


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

Oops. I didn't realize that this was a HerSailnet post.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

dvuyxx said:


> Oops. I didn't realize that this was a HerSailnet post.


Arrgh, me neither...now I just feel all dirty..like I accidentally walked into the ladies room or something.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Well, most of the posts here are from the guys. So no need to feel like an intruder. 

We're in quiet disagreement (minor) regarding performance. It really only matters to me in that the boat will take us from point A to point B a bit faster. Most of my sailing was done on a Columbia 45 that needs a small hurricane to get her up to speed. We motored a LOT! When taking that 8-12 hour trip, I'd like to have the option to sail if there's some wind. My So wants to go fast everywhere.

Every salesperson/broker has boats they suggest for you and when you actually see them, some of them end up on the list of possibilities. Right now, more are being added than subtracted.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Well, at least someone is keeping the boat brokers busy. I suspect most have an abundance of free time on their hands...


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Julie,
Fast with comfort for weekend sailing/week long cruises implies a catamaran. 
Hate to widen your list, but there it is. 
Then again, the Sabre 34 you were looking at is another very, very good choice.

Sometimes you have to ask yourself, is this your last boat, or you next boat. I'm on #4 in 12 years - refining our needs, wants, and desires by sampling the mix.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

In the end, we were thankful for my three years of research (two years of narrowing it down to three, one year of stalking the owners associations and email lists). It isn't our last boat, but we're more than happy with the boat we bought to sail now because we knew before writing the check the disadvantages, the common issues, the upgrades that would have to be made, sailing performance, etc. Four years in, we have yet to say "Damn! If we had known that..." Because we did.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

jameswilson29 said:


> Well, at least someone is keeping the boat brokers busy. I suspect most have an abundance of free time on their hands...


The first broker has already handed us over to his brother citing "too busy"  as the reason. I think we wore him out.

Chuckles, did anyone ever tell you you are a troublemaker? 

No, the cat is out. How do cat owners even find a slip? Or do they pay double on the slip fee? Anyway, neither of us like the cat.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

JulieMor said:


> It really only matters to me in that the boat will take us from point A to point B a bit faster. Most of my sailing was done on a Columbia 45 that needs a small hurricane to get her up to speed.


That is why performance matters to me.

Sailing is so much more fun than motoring. In my part of the world (Seattle) we often have winds under 10 knots. A boat that can go 5 to 6 knots in a 7 to 8 knot breeze will get a lot more sailing time than one that can't.

Pointing also matters to me for the same reason. This is also why I really like good sails, blown out sails really kill your tacking angles.

A boat that points well and handles light air well is also one that usually gets a good PHRF around here. My Pearson could do better in light air (the Catalina 25 that I used to own is faster in <5 knots of wind, I often sail side by side with the new owner), but does pretty well on pointing and was the right compromise for me on LOA (matters for moorage payments), performance, and cruising comfort.

Since little sailing up here is a beam reach I'm not sure that a Catamaran would be any faster. It would scream down wind, but only half of my sailing ends up being downwind. The other half is upwind, a tiny portion is a beam reach.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Mark, I think you meant "...walked into the ladies room [unintentionally for once] or something." 

Julie, I think a lot of us went through the same issue. One thing you'll need to consider is whether you want to find one/two/three boats and wait until that specific boat comes on the market, or whether your goal is to have something soon(ish) that comes close to what those boats offer. Will you be heartbroken if you can't get a boat in the next 2-3 months? If so, then you're "sutck" with whatever is on the market at the time of your search, and you have to go with the "best" of the lot (with best being highly subjective based on your individual wants/needs/budget).


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I think the window on dropping prices seems to be closing. By and large, the models that I have been tracking seem to be selling pretty steadily again at prices that have not dropped in a year or so. The brokers who I talk to frequently tell me that things have really picked up with the inventory of decent boats greatly diminished and even less desirable boats actually selling and so on. They had no problem telling me that things were really slow when things were really slow so I believe them. One told me that he had a bidding war on a boat that had been on the market for nearly two years at the same asking price and sold above its asking price. 

It may be a buyers market in that boat asking prices are down perhaps 25% from a three four years ago, but it does not seem as easy to get a bargain as it was last year. 

Jeff


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> I think the window on dropping prices seems to be closing. By and large, the models that I have been tracking seem to be selling pretty steadily again at prices that have not dropped in a year or so. The brokers who I talk to frequently tell me that things have really picked up with the inventory of decent boats greatly diminished and even less desirable boats actually selling and so on. They had no problem telling me that things were really slow when things were really slow so I believe them. One told me that he had a bidding war on a boat that had been on the market for nearly two years at the same asking price and sold above its asking price.
> 
> It may be a buyers market in that boat asking prices are down perhaps 25% from a three four years ago, but it does not seem as easy to get a bargain as it was last year.
> 
> Jeff


I spent an hour on the phone yesterday with a friend who is a broker for POPYachts, and he and I were discussing that very issue. He and several others have told me that the market is still very much a buyers market, and that though it is taking time, most sellers are coming down by more than 50% of their original pricing . I had actually called him on a boat that was listed on their site at $15,000.00 reduced from $75,600.00 and was going to purchase it. The vessel had sold, which if I had looked at the ad before calling him I would have been able to see that had happened, about three days before I called. Now I am not saying that is the going trend or that it is indicative of an ongoing trend, but most of the boats ranging from $25,000.00 to $75,000.00 in original listings seem to be going at about half of that at sale day. I talk to him and to several other brokers on a weekly basis and pretty much all are saying the same thing, with the exception that there are some vessels going above asking because the original asking was below value and more than one person was bidding on it.

I would not expect a trend in increasing prices on used sailboats anytime soon outside of a few models and a few localized areas. The economy has not improved, except in just a few areas, and neither has the housing market improved much. The recent improvement in the housing market was the first time in over five years that it has shown significant increase in new home sales, which is a leading indicator that the economy is on the mend. People will buy houses first and boats a few years later most of the time.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Obviously this may be regional but around here both the housing market and boat market seems to begun rebounding. And yes there are neglected boats getting dumped at 50% of former prices but better designed, built and maintained examples have not dropped anywhere near that.
Jeff


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> Obviously this may be regional but around here both the housing market and boat market seems to begun rebounding. And yes there are neglected boats getting dumped at 50% of former prices but better designed, built and maintained examples have not dropped anywhere near that.
> Jeff


Some of the boats I am talking about are not neglected, most are not anywhere near new, but even some in the 2005 more or less range are going very well below asking. I think that what will eventually hurt the market on used boats in your area there in the North East is going to be the glut of boats on the market after Sandy. In my experience of buying and selling stuff any time there is a lot of stuff on the market it drives the price on most of it down. However, there will be a premium on boats with no damage at all that are very well maintained.

If you are trying to sell one you will be pressed to get what you would have been able to get for something about like it ten years back, and you will also need to do something that I know you would, but so many do not.....Clean it up, make it absolutely tidy and neat and clean and sparkly before having the sales broker come take photos. I hate to see a boat with crap in the toilet, stuff in the sink, and clothes all over the place, because I know that if the owner did not keep his vessel ship shape in all conditions, he surely did not do maintenance as he should have done.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> The first broker has already handed us over to his brother citing "too busy"  as the reason. I think we wore him out......


Keep in mind that the broker is going to get to keep about 5% of what you pay for the boat, if their employer listed it. Half of that, if the commision is split with another listing broker. I think you're in the 40k shopping range. It's a 1K to 2k payday, IF you buy a boat with them. Think about how often the broker would need to close the deal to make a decent living.

They have to prioritize the clients they think they have the best chance with and is time efficient.

They often deserve some of their unscrupulous reputation, but you are better served having their help. On the other hand, you really do need to narrow down your thoughts, so they can help you. If they see it going to the other way, they need to focus on a better prospect.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

dvuyxx said:


> I put together a lot of crazy spreadsheets and decision tree doodles during that process. I realized around that time that performance wasn't that important. As much as I dreamed about wet rails and white knuckle tacks, it was clear that I needed a family cruiser that could take a beating. I bought a sound boat that needed a lot of restoration, but mostly cosmetic.


Your boat isn't exactly slow either but a good combo of stability, accommodations. Performance should be a factor. If it won't sail in 5-10 you be motoring a lot. On a cruising trip of 8 hours per day a boat 1 knot faster picks up 8 miles in a day or an extra day in a week.

It's all about tradeoffs usually, but personally I wouldn't enjoy having a slow boat or motoring while everyone else sailed, or boat which will not go to windward well.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

mark2gmtrans said:


> He and several others have told me that the market is still very much a buyers market, and that though it is taking time, most sellers are coming down by more than 50% of their original pricing.


Mark, I know there are regional differences but the market must be much slower in Texas than here. Two local brokers I talk with occasionally tell me they've been very busy on used boats for a while now, while new boat sales are still sluggish.

The bump in interest rates may knock some people off the fence and into the brokers office as well. It's definitely had an effect on home prices and demand.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

We spent the weekend in Michigan for golfing and sailing. In the interim we did a lot of harbor hopping and dock walking. We looked at a lot of boats in our size range and talked to any owners who happened to be aboard. There weren't many but those we did talk to were more than gracious to share their thoughts. One couple was so friendly they almost wouldn't let us leave. 

It was educational seeing the boats and talking to the owners. Each had their own reasons for choosing their boat and each their own reasons for owning a boat. It's a very personal decision. And when doing your own search, you need to remember that so you don't buy a boat just because someone else says it's perfect.

We chartered a 2013 Jeanneau 379 for a 2-1/2 hour sail on Lake Michigan. It was more of a "fix" for me than any part of a boat search. Winds were 12-20 knots, waves 1-3 feet. We cruised at around 8 knots and topped out at 9. Even when we reefed after the winds were pushing 20, she was still holding in the 7s on a close reach. Overall, the speeds were a lot faster than I expected that boat to go.

What I absolutely loved was the way the sail controlling lines were laid out and trailed back to the cockpit. Of the boats I've sailed, this was the best design I've seen. The lines lead aft were often "buried" into the deck or cabin and there was little trip hazards when walking forward. But everything was right there and easy to access and work.

Reefing was a breeze. The main had blocks sewn into the sail at the tack and clew of each reef, like the block in the picture below:








I had never seen that before. It was obviously done by the sailmaker. This made reefing much easier than what I've experienced in the past. The first reef was led to the starboard cabin winch and the second to port.

The winches were properly sized and created no unnecessary strain on the crew. There were no electric winches but there didn't need to be. The boat we sailed two weeks ago had undersized winches. Even the men tired working them.

All in all it was well laid out. I could easily singlehand this boat, even now, at my age. Of everything I took away from that sail, what I learned about the the sail controlling lines and gear setup was invaluable. I know that burying the lines isn't possible on boats not designed for that but the rest of that layout is possible, with some good planning (and the right gear), on most any boat. No more need to worry about my age being an issue with sail handling.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sounds like you are nailing down some criteria that are important. Now go filter out the boats that have what you are realizing you like. Good luck.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

The brother of the guy who passed us off cuz he was too busy called today. These brothers are as different as night and day. He was very helpful, informative and more than willing to work with us. The call lasted about an hour and I think if we could have kept going, he would have too. 

The biggest obstacle we're having so far seems to be finding boats within a half-day's drive.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JulieMor said:


> The biggest obstacle we're having so far seems to be finding boats within a half-day's drive.


I think that is kind of normal unless you live in Annapolis, Newport. Kemah or Florida.

Keep plugging away it takes time and patience to get something good


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

cool, bu Julie. lines led aft can pretty much be done on any boat. Don't let that stop you from looking at boats that aren't with lines led aft.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Have you considered boats that are farther away, and having them moved (either by land or by water)?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's a strategy that could help widen the search, without undue traveling. If you can narrow your choice down to a brand, maybe a model or two or a range within that brand, then go see the closest dealer. They almost always have a used broker. Even if not for sale, they can often get you aboard customers boats, just so you can choose what you're looking for. They may have some inventory, but are often very schooled on all the inventory on the market. If they don't have what you want, they are pretty wired into the community to properly filter distant boats before you nail down what you may want to visit to confirm it is as advertised. Since you've already been aboard the model nearby, you're only traveling to assess quality when you've picked the one.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

jimgo said:


> Have you considered boats that are farther away, and having them moved (either by land or by water)?


Our search has been the US and Canada but we're focusing on the Great Lakes first and working out from there.

Minn, when we were talking to the broker I suggested just what you said, that we check out boats in the area where he knows the owners well enough that they might be willing to show us their boats. He didn't jump on that. I got the feeling that's probably not going to happen.

Right now we're mapping out some day trips to check out boats for when we visit a friend in CT. There's 9 boats in the area on our list but only four different models, so we don't have to see all 9... but I'll bet we do. 
Depending on obligations at home, we may drive down from there into MD and do some browsing.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

If you guys get to MD, give us an email; we're around most of the summer.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> Minn, when we were talking to the broker I suggested just what you said, that we check out boats in the area where he knows the owners well enough that they might be willing to show us their boats. He didn't jump on that. I got the feeling that's probably not going to happen......


It s a strategy that probably works best with a dealer based broker. They would have an ongoing service relationship with their customers and a closer connection to make this happen.

However, if any broker can't deliver what you want. Get a new one! They made more.


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## SolSailor (Dec 30, 2012)

JulieMor said:


> The brother of the guy who passed us off cuz he was too busy called today. These brothers are as different as night and day.


Would one of those brothers happen to be named Tim? If so, is he the former or the latter?

Tony
s/v Bella Sol


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