# why so long?



## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

this thread is about my 1971 cal27. the tiller is really long. around 51". it takes up most of the cockpit. if i sit in the boat and my girlfriend sits next to me, with me closest to the tiller, it will jiust miss her, if she sits plastered to the back of the cabin. but, if i am pulling the tiller towards myself, say as if i was going to tack, it traps my legs and is uncomfortable close to my body. 

i have seen a T2 with a wheel. basically the same boat with a taller rig and a different cabin arrangement. i would have to move the travelor to behind the companionway, like on an outbord equipped c27. however, i have never sailed with a wheel before and i don't know if i'd like it. plus it's a bug expense and a lot of work. something i'd rather contemplate after a season sailed as is.

but, i can see that long tiller being a real PIA. so, the question is, can i run a shorter tiller and how short could i go? i need to replace the one i have. it's really toasty. so, i could go for a shorter one....but can i, without making the baot hard to steer? 

opinions?


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

2 things. I saw 26 ft sailboat with an axe handle for a tiller that I didn't notice till it was pointed out (it was used for years). Wheel. There are other configurations for a wheel like a wheel connected to the tiller connection (horizontal ). And other wheels with gears connected to the tiller connection. If I find pics i'll sent them to you.
--Just some ideas. I like a wood wheel for lightening purposes. With a wheel you can get a big "Captain hat",sip whisky and Bark orders at anybody who will listen !


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Could you make a curved tiller, with an extension, to give yourself enough room? Like this:

Karl's Cape Cod Boat Shop -- Custom sailboat tillers increase your steering control!

You can get hardware for making your own extension:

https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=200&item=87981&intAbsolutePage=1

If you do switch to wheel steering, make sure you keep access to the rudderhead easy, so when the wheel gear fails you can easily install an emergency tiller.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

the long tiller is probably cause the po liked it that way...

a lot of racers and dinghy sailors and small keelboaters use tiller extenders(which is better than just a long tiller) as it pivots but the long tiller is because a lot of helmsmen like to sit up forward by the coaming or cabin...it also allows solo sailors for example to be close to the main halyard winch, or sheets etc if lines are led aft for a quick adjustment or douse...etc...

I prefer tiller extenders usually with a foam grip...the best we made on the j24 we raced for example was a very light aluminum tube with a rubber strap cord running through it and into the tiller end...it will pivot in all angles and be flexible

in any case these are my ideas on why you have a long tiller...having said that with you having a helper on board there is no need for such a long one as space will be cut down as you already know

cheers


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

Since the current one is toasty, I'd cut 6" at a time of it and see how you like it. I see no reason why you couldn't go down to 37-38" without issue....


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The longer tiller gets the helmsman's weight out of the stern more amidships, and provides maximum mechanical advantage. The only downside of a shorter tiller would/could be the effort to control it when the boat loads up the helm. Not sure if the C27 has a properly balanced rudder - if it does then a shorter stick won't be any trouble at all.

Really don't think going to a wheel is the answer here.. the boat's a bit small for that and your limited budget would be far better used for just about anything else. Also, on a boat of that size it puts the weight of the helmsman AND the steering system well aft where it does most harm.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> 2 things. I saw 26 ft sailboat with an axe handle for a tiller that I didn't notice till it was pointed out (it was used for years).


that is good evidence that it can be shortened.



> Wheel. There are other configurations for a wheel like a wheel connected to the tiller connection (horizontal ). And other wheels with gears connected to the tiller connection. If I find pics i'll sent them to you.
> --Just some ideas. I like a wood wheel for lightening purposes. With a wheel you can get a big "Captain hat",sip whisky and Bark orders at anybody who will listen !


i have been searching the web to try to find a wheel set up, like that, which i could manufacture, myself, with the least actual modification of the boat. if you find said pics, that would be great. thanks


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Could you make a curved tiller, with an extension, to give yourself enough room? Like this:
> 
> Karl's Cape Cod Boat Shop -- Custom sailboat tillers increase your steering control!


that's kind of what i was thinking about. a shorter tiller that curved sharply, so that it would raise the tiller height. i was just concerned about losing the leverage of a longer tiller.



> You can get hardware for making your own extension:
> 
> https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=200&item=87981&intAbsolutePage=1


duckworks carries one, too. it's of a little bit different design, i believe.



> If you do switch to wheel steering, make sure you keep access to the rudderhead easy, so when the wheel gear fails you can easily install an emergency tiller.


that's one concern i have about going the wheel route. not only am i concerned that i won't like it but i prefer simplicity. less to go wrong. you can't get much simpler than a tiller. but, i suppose, if i did eventually choose a wheel, having an emergency tiller would help with that; as would proper maintenance.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> the long tiller is probably cause the po liked it that way...
> 
> a lot of racers and dinghy sailors and small keelboaters use tiller extenders(which is better than just a long tiller) as it pivots but the long tiller is because a lot of helmsmen like to sit up forward by the coaming or cabin...it also allows solo sailors for example to be close to the main halyard winch, or sheets etc if lines are led aft for a quick adjustment or douse...etc...
> 
> ...


i believe the boats originally came with that tiller. i, also, would prefer a shorter tiller with an extension. but, i do see the point for a longer tiller for solo sailing. however, the traveler is in the stern, so the mainsail's control lines are all easily reached from the stern. also, there are winches, for the jib, close to the stern. i think it could be easily single handed with a shorter tiller. it is true that the longer tiller would allow a solo sailer to sit closer to the cabin, moving his weight forward for up wind sailing. but, in a boat that weighs 5400#, i am not sure how much the weight of one person would affect the handling.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

azguy said:


> Since the current one is toasty, I'd cut 6" at a time of it and see how you like it. I see no reason why you couldn't go down to 37-38" without issue....


that's a good thought. replace the tiller after i have sailed it and experimented with various lengths to see what i like best.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> The longer tiller gets the helmsman's weight out of the stern more amidships, and provides maximum mechanical advantage. The only downside of a shorter tiller would/could be the effort to control it when the boat loads up the helm. Not sure if the C27 has a properly balanced rudder - if it does then a shorter stick won't be any trouble at all.


you just pointed out all of my concerns. i will have to see if i can find a good pic that would allow me to see just where the pivot point is, on the rudder. it turns easily enough, when not moving but, that proves nothing at all. but leverage is my real concern.

the cockpit is small. so, i am less concerned with my body weight than i am with being able to sit in it, comfortable. you might be able to cram 4 people in it, comfortably, if two weren't worried about sitting on the windward side.



> Really don't think going to a wheel is the answer here.. the boat's a bit small for that and your limited budget would be far better used for just about anything else. Also, on a boat of that size it puts the weight of the helmsman AND the steering system well aft where it does most harm.


well, that's why a wheel would be something for consideration after a season of sailing. added weight in the stern is always an issue with a wheel. plus, it's worse for single handed sailing.

and, at this point, i don't need to spend any more money or add any more work, to what i already will need to invest.

in addition, i have always sailed with a tiller. i like them. i'm used to them. plus they look all old timey salty. :laugher

seriously, though, a wheel would only be the course of last resort. however, having seen a T2 with a wheel, i feel better that, if i do have to go that route, it obviously works for these boats.

depending on the mechanical advantage of the wheel, the helmsman wouldn't have to stand behind it. he ( meaning me ) could sit to the side and in front and steer with one hand. but i do think the tiller would be best.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Have access to trees? Look for an oak, ash, elm or hickory branch with a likely shape & cut it now while the sap is not running, let it be seasoning 'til you're ready to shape & fit it.  If nothing else, you could use it for an emergency tiller.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Have access to trees? Look for an oak, ash, elm or hickory branch with a likely shape & cut it now while the sap is not running, let it be seasoning 'til you're ready to shape & fit it.  If nothing else, you could use it for an emergency tiller.


that's a good idea. i could see if i can find one that is already in the general shape i need. perhaps it's a good time to take a hike.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

1) There is a Monty Python skit where there are five guys in a lifeboat

"How long is it?"
"Kind of personal don't you think?"

that is what I though of when I saw the thread title

2) Mentioned already that a long tiller gets you to the center of the boat (closer to the mast).. 

I wonder if there isn't a leverage benefit of a longer tiller. Didn't Archimedes say: "Give me a long tiller and a place to sit and I will steer your world"

Edit:Neither here nor there... I wonder why when you do a google image search for boats...some you find mostly sailing pictures and others you find mostly in a boat slip (what I found with your boat).. Not sure what that says about a given boat, but I guess if I was searching a boat I wanted to buy and half the pictures were of capsized boats... I would change my mind


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

It seems like it shouldn't be much of and engineering problem to make a tiller that has an extension that would make the tiller longer (for a longer lever arm) when needed.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> Here is pic of Hickory axe handle. 3ft long. One end is flat & fits between tiller to bolt on.
> Handle is curved a bit similar to a store bought tiller. Not a joke. Or a wheel can be fit on a shaft coming up from tiller fitting. If you don't like the $10 Hickory I'll send you the $10.
> True Temper® - 36 inch Hickory Single Bit Axe Handle People's lives depend on it not breaking.


that would actually make a nice looking tiller. $10 beats a hundred. it would take some spacers to fit the tiller bracket but that's a solid idea.

i had considered a shaft hooked straight down on the fitting. but it would sit pretty far to stern. of course, the wheel could be mounted on the front of the post, instead of the rear. i'd still have to figure out gears to go from the wheel to the shaft. i am sure that something else, totally unrelated, might have such gears which could be canabilized; perhaps the rear end from some sort of go cart.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

titustiger27 said:


> 1) There is a Monty Python skit where there are five guys in a lifeboat
> 
> "How long is it?"
> "Kind of personal don't you think?"
> ...


a longer tiller does have a leverage advantage. during archimedes time, when rudders were not balanced as many are now, that was very important. if my rudder is balanced, it wouldn't be that important.

i would hazzard a guess that the reason you mostly see pics of these, older, cal 27s in the slip is that most of those pics come from sales ads. most ads don't contain nice pics of the boats sailing.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Barquito said:


> It seems like it shouldn't be much of and engineering problem to make a tiller that has an extension that would make the tiller longer (for a longer lever arm) when needed.


no. it wouldn't. no harder than adding a tiller extension to a shorter tiller. but, if the boat needs a long tiller for leverage, that would end up being a useless modification. you'd always have to have it extended.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

captain jack said:


> snip
> 
> i would hazzard a guess that the reason you mostly see pics of these, older, cal 27s in the slip is that most of those pics come from sales ads. most ads don't contain nice pics of the boats sailing.


I think you are right about the ads --- but the wrong ads. Most of the ads you come across in a google search are used boats.

Funny story. The last time I was out in my boat in 2013, I capsized. I had already decided to move up a size (12 ft to 15 ft), but the capsizing removed any doubt.

I had been waiting for a friend to go with me, so I put up the sails and took a couple pictures (the only pictures I took of the boat rigged on the water)... and the camera (with sd card) is on the bottom Lake Colby... so when I listed the boat on Craigslist I only had pictures from my front yard.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

titustiger27 said:


> I think you are right about the ads --- but the wrong ads. Most of the ads you come across in a google search are used boats.
> 
> Funny story. The last time I was out in my boat in 2013, I capsized. I had already decided to move up a size (12 ft to 15 ft), but the capsizing removed any doubt.
> 
> I had been waiting for a friend to go with me, so I put up the sails and took a couple pictures (the only pictures I took of the boat rigged on the water)... and the camera (with sd card) is on the bottom Lake Colby... so when I listed the boat on Craigslist I only had pictures from my front yard.


wow. that's kind of tragic, really.

yeah. i was referring to used boat ads. there aren't a lot of these out there. you tend to see sailing pics of boats that are either unique or belong to a large 'fleet' of boats. for instance, there are tons of pictures of lasers sailing. and you can find pictures of the Bluenose sailing.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

for what it's worth, judging by the images i can find of the underside, including the one i have of mine ( when it was in too shallow water at high tide. long story. it's in another thread ), it appears that 3/4 of my rudder area is aft the stern post. not totally balanced but not terrible. i suppose it would be a trial and error thing, to figure out how much shortening the tiller would affect handling.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

captain jack said:


> wow. that's kind of tragic, really.
> 
> yeah. i was referring to used boat ads. there aren't a lot of these out there. you tend to see sailing pics of boats that are either unique or belong to a large 'fleet' of boats. for instance, there are tons of pictures of lasers sailing. and you can find pictures of the Bluenose sailing.


No one died.

A week or so later, friend and I were at a dinner party telling the story and all that we did wrong or that went wrong. Like not leaving keys in his car. And he was saying something about me losing my camera and a paddle... i reminded him, that no one died. or even got hurt.

And there was a nice guy who showed up and dragged us to shore so we could bail... re-affirming my belief in mankind.

I think the smaller the boat, the more likely you will see it under sail.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

titustiger27 said:


> No one died.
> 
> A week or so later, friend and I were at a dinner party telling the story and all that we did wrong or that went wrong. Like not leaving keys in his car. And he was saying something about me losing my camera and a paddle... i reminded him, that no one died. or even got hurt.
> 
> ...


possibly so. i love my holiday 20 but, i have sailed my 9' dinnghy 95% more. of course, a part of that is transportation to the water. for a part of the time i owned the holiday, which is a trailer sailer, i had no way to pull a trailer. but, even when i did, it was easier to get the dinghy out on the water. not that i don't love my dinghy ( my girlfriend loves my dingy, to, but that's a different spelling :laugher ). i do. it's an awesome handling boat. really fun to sail. but access makes the difference. i hope that it will be far easier to get to sail my cal. it's already on the water. no trailer. no mast raising. no rigging. no launch or retrieval. and it's only 15 min from my girlfriend's house. the holiday is around an hour from lake marburg and from the bay. plus, i can sleep on the cal and don't have to leave it by dark ( you'd get locked in at marburg if you weren't out by dark. happened to me. i'm not good at leaving the water.).


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> i believe the boats originally came with that tiller. i, also, would prefer a shorter tiller with an extension. but, i do see the point for a longer tiller for solo sailing. however, the traveler is in the stern, so the mainsail's control lines are all easily reached from the stern. also, there are winches, for the jib, close to the stern. i think it could be easily single handed with a shorter tiller. it is true that the longer tiller would allow a solo sailer to sit closer to the cabin, moving his weight forward for up wind sailing. but, in a boat that weighs 5400#, i am not sure how much the weight of one person would affect the handling.


faster added the more technical points to my post but basically youde be surprised HOW MUCH your wieght influences your boat by changing positions

like I said before your cal 27 has a very active racing scene at clubs and stuff and a long tiller is preffered for the reasons mentioned...on boats like the j24 I even like to sit on the coaming as helmsman on reaches and pointing as you want most of the weight to windward to keep the boat FLAT

flat is fast and using your weight to help the keel if you will does wonders

but like said before and by others since you have crew a smaller or shorter tiller will clear up your cockpit a bit and be more user and crew friendly

especially sinceyour controls are mostly AFT

cheers


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

captain jack said:


> for what it's worth, judging by the images i can find of the underside, including the one i have of mine ( when it was in too shallow water at high tide. long story. it's in another thread ), it appears that 3/4 of my rudder area is aft the stern post. not totally balanced but not terrible. i suppose it would be a trial and error thing, to figure out how much shortening the tiller would affect handling.


Jack that sounds like a typical balanced rudder.. Balanced rudders don't split the blade area 50/50 across the rudder post.. the forward balancing tab is typically 20% of the chord or less, so that sounds good. Rudders that become hard to control at times typically have the stock right at the leading edge like barn door rudders on full keels.

Too much balancing tab and you'd have no 'feel', and also with an inboard propwash can act on the balancing tab with enough force to make it hard to hold the tiller straight under power. Too much area and it can be a problem (similar to trying to hold a tiller straight when you're backing up with speed).

btw.. with the tiller 'longish' and sailing alone, I'd really give some thought to moving the traveller to the front of the cockpit as shown in your other thread.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> faster added the more technical points to my post but basically youde be surprised HOW MUCH your wieght influences your boat by changing positions
> 
> like I said before your cal 27 has a very active racing scene at clubs and stuff


that's interesting. are there any pics, from that scene? it's so hard to find pics or info about this specific cal27. lots of stuff about the 2-27. not much on these. is there a race association for these? that would be a wealth of info.



> and a long tiller is preffered for the reasons mentioned...on boats like the j24 I even like to sit on the coaming as helmsman on reaches and pointing as you want most of the weight to windward to keep the boat FLAT
> 
> flat is fast and using your weight to help the keel if you will does wonders
> 
> ...


yeah. that was my thought. since there are two of us, i would only be sitting so far forwards. but, one of the reasons i am not hot to swap to a wheel is weight placement.


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## Bob142 (May 27, 2012)

You might be over thinking this...the leverage is very easy to test just hold the tiller closer shorter and see how hard it is to control and then cut off what you aren't using then use that as your model for a new one...


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

In "Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding", George shows how to convert tiller to wheel steering without breaking the bank, and even keeping the tiller. (He also has lots of other DIY stuff you might find interesting/useful. )










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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Jack that sounds like a typical balanced rudder.. Balanced rudders don't split the blade area 50/50 across the rudder post.. the forward balancing tab is typically 20% of the chord or less, so that sounds good. Rudders that become hard to control at times typically have the stock right at the leading edge like barn door rudders on full keels.
> 
> Too much balancing tab and you'd have no 'feel', and also with an inboard propwash can act on the balancing tab with enough force to make it hard to hold the tiller straight under power. Too much area and it can be a problem (similar to trying to hold a tiller straight when you're backing up with speed).


i have seen rudders with the stern post a little farther towards the middle than mine. maybe 1/3 of the way in. that's what i was thinking about. actually, this will be my first boat with a balanced rudder. the holiday is transom hung, like the dinghy.

a 50/50 set up wouldn't really work.

it's like a motorcycle front end. if you draw a line through the neck of the frame, where the bolt that the front end pivots on passes through, and you drop a perpendicular line through the center of the axle, the line through the axle should touch the ground after the point where the line thrugh the neck does. this is called positive trail. it's much like the 'crazy wheels' on an office chair. the wheel is litterally being pulled along by the force from the rear wheel, which is passing through the frame to the neck. this force must lead to a point farther forwards than the point where the tire touches the road. if it doesn't, if these points are reversed even a little, you get negative trail. the bike will not track in a straight line. what i like to call the death wobbles.

if you have too much trail, as in a poorly designed chopper front end, you get a bike that goes straight, well, but is hard to turn at low speed. my chopper is raked out pretty far; around 50 degrees. however, i know a bit about front end design and i took steps to counter this and reduce the trail. it has very little trail, even with the long front end, so it handles low speed turns like a stock bike while maintaining high speed straight line stability.

a rudder is like that. the force of the boat needs to be forwards of the center point of the pivot. if it is very far forwards, like a transom hung rudder, you get a lot of trail which makes it harder to turn. too little trail and it loses stability; what you would refer to as 'feel'. if you had no trail or reverse trail it woud be hard or even impossible to go straight because the boat would be pushing the rudder, rather than pulling it, through the water. imagine turning a crazy wheel backwards and then trying to push the chair across the floor. the wheel would immediately snap around so it was trailing the pivot point.



> btw.. with the tiller 'longish' and sailing alone, I'd really give some thought to moving the traveller to the front of the cockpit as shown in your other thread.


i won't be sailing alone, most of the time. the outboard equipped versions of this boat do have the traveler behind the companionway. really don't know that i would like that set up...although you aren't the only person to suggest that. i am used to having the main rigged to the stern. it's something i will give consideration to, since so many experienced people have suggested it, but i won't be changing it til after i have some time sailing it, as is.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Tiller pressure can be greatly reduced by good rig tuning, good sail trim (i.e., reducing any imbalance between the pressures on the mainsail and jib), timely reefing of sails, reducing heeling, good helmsmanship, etc. If you eliminate all those causes of excess tiller pressure, then you will be able to get by with a shorter tiller.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> In "Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding", George shows how to convert tiller to wheel steering without breaking the bank, and even keeping the tiller. (He also has lots of other DIY stuff you might find interesting/useful. )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


just started looking through his site. it's a delightful, well written site and he has a really good philosophy about life. well worth checking out.

he has some nice looking designs. i notice that the boats i have seen so far don't have a tiny toe rail, like most modern sailboats. they have low....we'd call them knee rails in the construction business. kind of old timey. i like that and wonder why it's not still done on modern sailboats.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

His bulwarks and handrails are functional, not cosmetic like you see on today's boats -- they'll keep you aboard if you get hit by green water while working on the deck. He's in the Pacific Northwest and inspired by his familiarity and respect for the working boats of that region. The way he writes makes me think he'd be a fun guy to share a pitcher with -- there are some good stories in his book, usually with a point to explain why he designs as he does.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> His bulwarks and handrails are functional, not cosmetic like you see on today's boats -- they'll keep you aboard if you get hit by green water while working on the deck. He's in the Pacific Northwest and inspired by his familiarity and respect for the working boats of that region. The way he writes makes me think he'd be a fun guy to share a pitcher with -- there are some good stories in his book, usually with a point to explain why he designs as he does.


i like that. i don't suppose it would be possible to add bulwarks to a production FG boat.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Tiller handle on our Catalina 27 is about 36-40 inches. I imagine this one is so long because the PO did a lot of singlehanded sailing and wanted the protection of being further forward perhaps behind a dodger.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

delite said:


> Tiller handle on our Catalina 27 is about 36-40 inches. I imagine this one is so long because the PO did a lot of singlehanded sailing and wanted the protection of being further forward perhaps behind a dodger.


pretty sure the tiller is the stock length but, i also imagine that is the reason it was designed with such a long tiller. 36-40" would be much better.

by the way, no dodger possible with the pop top on this cal, i think. at least, i don't see a practical way that would work.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> i like that. i don't suppose it would be possible to add bulwarks to a production FG boat.


You might -- he has at least 3 different ways of making them. You would need clear access to the outboard interior of the hull, to locate mounting points and install healthy backing plates. Much depends upon your hull construction.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> You might -- he has at least 3 different ways of making them. You would need clear access to the outboard interior of the hull, to locate mounting points and install healthy backing plates. Much depends upon your hull construction.


cool. i will have to buy his book. sounds like it's well worth the money.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> cool. i will have to buy his book. sounds like it's well worth the money.


You won't regret it. He has a lot of ideas for customizing and personalizing your boat to suit you, and how *you* use the boat.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

mine,s fifty in
long. i can stand, holding the end up ay the cabin bulkhead or grag only a foot or so and sit astern. onc trim is balanced, on a longish reach or rin, ya hardly hafta touch it to stay on course.

i,m looking into wheel options, too....prolly cable and drum! IF i move it at all

damm'd word fill and micro screen KB!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

he actually gives some free steering suggestions, on his site, that i think are very good and very useful. it's got me thinking. if i end up adding wheel steering, i have an idea how to do it, fairly inexpensively, now, without a lot of additional weight. great link! thanks.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deltaten said:


> mine,s fifty in
> long. i can stand, holding the end up ay the cabin bulkhead or grag only a foot or so and sit astern. onc trim is balanced, on a longish reach or rin, ya hardly hafta touch it to stay on course.
> 
> i,m looking into wheel options, too....prolly cable and drum! IF i move it at all
> ...


sounds like mine.


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Her is pic of wheel type I was talking about. Worm Gear steerers http://www.edsonmarine.com/ecatalogs/T1/p/00007.jpg 
And


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i have contacted them about their various set ups. with a worm gear or rack and pinion set up, i could fabricate my own housings. i think setting it up so i could steer from the side would help a lot. i have seen some bigger cruises, with wheel steering, set up that way. if i decide to do wheel steering, at some point, that may be the way to go.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

new, rack and pinion set ups, from edson, start around $1500 and worm screw set ups start around $4200. a bit pricey. they recommend i try consignment shops, based on the original cost of my boat. while parts can get pricey, if you get a used one that needs parts, worm screw set ups are bullet proof. i like the sound of that. perhaps as a future thought. of course....i do have extremely good metal fabricaton skills. i wonder how hard it would be to make one from scratch using basic machine shop equipment?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Make the tiller the length you like, buy/make an adjustable tiller extension and you can steer from nearly anywhere in the cockpit. This boat is not really one where wheel steering is going to make life any easier, IMO.

http://www.americanriggingsupply.com/Forespar_TillerExtensions.pdf

Much better things to spend your money and efforts on than wheel steering at this point.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Make the tiller the length you like, buy/make an adjustable tiller extension and you can steer from nearly anywhere in the cockpit. This boat is not really one where wheel steering is going to make life any easier, IMO.
> 
> http://www.americanriggingsupply.com/Forespar_TillerExtensions.pdf
> 
> Much better things to spend your money and efforts on than wheel steering at this point.


oh, i quite agree. thinking about wheel steering is only for future possibilities.

i am going to follow the advice of one of the other posters. i will make or buy a new tiller after i have sailed it. during the first few sails i will try steering from different positions, on the tiller, to determine the best length. then, once i decide that, i will make ( or buy ) a new tiller. i do like the ax haft suggestion.

i am not sure i would even like wheel steering. i have always sailed with tillers. but there is no harm pondering the future while i am on the subject of steering. perhaps, sometime, i will get the chance to sail with someone that does have a wheel and get to experience it. then, i would know if i like it or not. i have read all kinds of different opinions of wheel steering, on boats this size. however, i will never know what i think of it til i try it. i would prefer to try it before i invest time and money in it.

even if i never decide to go for a wheel set up, someone else reading this thread in the future might be able to use information posted here.


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## GMFL (Jun 9, 2010)

When I was looking at Islander 36's, I ended up choosing one with a steering pedestal over a tiller. Looking back, I wish I would have considered the tiller steered boat a bit more. Much more room in the cockpit with the tiller, easier to single hand, cleaner lines.

The pedestal has it's benefits as well I guess but on your Cal 27, I would think it would just take up too much space. 

Also, as mentioned, $5k could be spent on a whole lot of other upgrades that would be more beneficial, imo.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

GMFL said:


> When I was looking at Islander 36's, I ended up choosing one with a steering pedestal over a tiller. Looking back, I wish I would have considered the tiller steered boat a bit more. Much more room in the cockpit with the tiller, easier to single hand, cleaner lines.
> 
> The pedestal has it's benefits as well I guess but on your Cal 27, I would think it would just take up too much space.
> 
> Also, as mentioned, $5k could be spent on a whole lot of other upgrades that would be more beneficial, imo.


well, actually, space is the issue i have with the tiller.

the cockpit on this cal is pretty tight. if you really crammed people in, you might get 3 to a side. but it would not be comfortable and you wouldn't be able to use crew/passenger weight to an advantage.

i think the long tiller, unmodified, is going to be a PIA with just me and one crew. i have friends and family that might want to go for a sail, too. i think 4, including me, is a reasonable number to aspire for. but the tiller spanning the entire narrow cockpit would make that rather an issue. i would think a wheel, mounted aft, would open up a lot of space rather than taking it up.

i would think a wheel won't take up the entire cockpit. the tiller, at present, does. i am curious; how does the wheel take up more space? i have heard people say that and, i must admit, i don't understand it.

by the way, i'm not asking because i intend to go out and buy one of their systems, right now. i am asking for future reference. of course, if i found a cheap used system.....


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## GMFL (Jun 9, 2010)

captain jack said:


> well, actually, space is the issue i have with the tiller. a wheel won't take up the entire cockpit. the tiller, at present, does. i am curious; how does the wheel take up more space?


The wheel is fixed, can't be folded up when done sailing. The wheel separates the cockpit into 1/3 - 2/3 sections.

Certainly while sailing the tiller requires one to move around the cockpit but, unless you're constantly tacking, it should be ok right? Surely shortening your tiller will help here.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

GMFL said:


> The wheel is fixed, can't be folded up when done sailing. The wheel separates the cockpit into 1/3 - 2/3 sections.
> 
> Certainly while sailing the tiller requires one to move around the cockpit but, unless you're constantly tacking, it should be ok right? Surely shortening your tiller will help here.


ok. that exlains that.

yes, i am hoping that shortening it does solve the problem. thanks for explaining that for me. i have scratched my head about that, every time i read that in a post, somewhere. :laugher

if i were to, someday, go to a wheel, it will be pretty far aft, almost on top of the stern post, and i will set it up to steer while sitting to the side. i have seen that done before. that should alleviate some of that cockpit division problem.

this cockpit is pretty tight and narrow. even if there was no tiller or wheel at all you aren't going to be throwing any big parties in it.

i was more concerned with comfort while sailing than space when not sailing.

funny thing is, the present tiller pivots up but it won't stay up on it's own. the balance is wrong. but i would think a shorter tiller with an extension would not have that problem.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Back to shortening the tiller. I would take some electrical tape and mark where you want to shorten it down to. Sail for a few weeks with only holding the tiller from behind that mark. If the pressure ever gets too heavy, then you know it is too short. You could keep moving it back till you find where it gets too heavy, then you know where the shortest it can be. Then figure out what works best for single handing, and go with that so long as it is before your shortest mark. That lets you figure the best length for sailing. If it makes your guests have to move, so be it. Sailing is the priority, at least in my world.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

That is my intention. if i can go short enough, and still sail comfortable and easily, maybe the ax haft suggestion might just work out well.


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## GMFL (Jun 9, 2010)

captain jack said:


> i was more concerned with comfort while sailing than space when not sailing.


I figure for every hour I spend sailing, I spend 4 or more entertaining. The extra space would be nice then. The grass is always greener as they say...or maybe I need to sail more.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

GMFL said:


> I figure for every hour I spend sailing, I spend 4 or more entertaining. The extra space would be nice then. The grass is always greener as they say...or maybe I need to sail more.


:laugher


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i don't think i'd buy a complete system, knowing what i know now about the way wheel systems are designed. i'd buy a wheel and build the rest. this has been a really educational experience.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I had a Cape Dory 25D with a tiller years ago where I had the same problem. It didn't ever seem to need that much leverage, even in high winds, so I finally sawed off about 14 inches and never regretted it.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> i don't think i'd buy a complete system, knowing what i know now about the way wheel systems are designed. i'd buy a wheel and build the rest. this has been a really educational experience.


But apparently not educational _enough_, if you're _STILL_ considering swapping your tiller for a wheel...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> But apparently not educational _enough_, if you're _STILL_ considering swapping your tiller for a wheel...


on a possibly some day basis. i am going to sail, shorten the tiller, and sail some more. if i find the tiller is actually a PIA, and wish to try a wheel, then i will, at that time.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

captain jack said:


> on a possibly some day basis. i am going to sail, shorten the tiller, and sail some more. if i find the tiller is actually a PIA, and wis to try a wheel, then i will, at that time.


sounds like this might be the inverse of the 




Sailor's tillers shrink to the size of comfort


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

titustiger27 said:


> sounds like this might be the inverse of the Peter Principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Sailor's tillers shrink to the size of comfort


kind of does, doesn't it?

interesting principle. never heard of it but i suspect it's true in most businesses. is that 'peter' as in 'peters out'?


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

captain jack said:


> kind of does, doesn't it?
> 
> interesting principle. never heard of it but i suspect it's true in most businesses. *is that 'peter' as in 'peters out'*?


I think that is the implied sense... but I am not sure if that is how it started


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

titustiger27 said:


> I think that is the implied sense... but I am not sure if that is how it started


and, here, i was just kidding


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Another example of 'use it or lose it. ' If too short becomes the norm,consider a steering box from small auto (I've done several larger vessels with larger truck steering box) Can go to long shaft and wheel or sprocket and chain/cable to wheel. Emergency tiller is a problem. I can't figure why you would need to change to wheel on anything less than 30ish feet


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Capt Len said:


> Another example of 'use it or lose it. ' If too short becomes the norm,consider a steering box from small auto (I've done several larger vessels with larger truck steering box) Can go to long shaft and wheel or sprocket and chain/cable to wheel.


yeah. i had considered that. it would add weight, though. hopefully shortening the tiller will do the trick.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Capt Len said:


> I can't figure why you would need to change to wheel on anything less than 30ish feet


a number of people in many different posts in different threads on different sites have said that. i am not sure how 30 feet is a serious cut off point. so, if you had a 29' boat, it would be too small for a wheel? what about 29.5'?:laugher

seriously, though, i have heard that a lot. and, i won't go to wheel if shortening the tiller works. but everyone likes a different thing. i have seen ( and saved a pic of ) a cal 27 T2 with a wheel. same basic hull as mine. obviously someone thought it an improvement.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

captain jack said:


> and, here, i was just kidding


The first time I heard of it.. I heard it described it as

"Man's ability to rise to his own incompetence"

I learned this during the sexist 70's


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

As long as you don't do anything you can't undo, you should be OK.

''The Peter Principle is a management theory which suggests that organizations risk filling management roles with people who are incompetent if they promote those who are performing well at their current role, rather than those who have proven abilities at the intended role. It is named after Laurence J. Peter who co-authored the 1969 humorous book 'The Peter Principle: Why Things Always Go Wrong' with Raymond Hull. They suggest that people will tend to be promoted until they reach their 'position of incompetence'." 

Could you use a tiller mounting bolt that allows you to adjust the friction/pressure between rudderhead & tiller so that the tiller stays up where you put it?

Re: wheel steering --- I know, in the future, if, maybe --- this is just brainstorming -- instead of at the rear of the cockpit, blocking the rudderhead, and making emergency-tiller installation difficult or impossible, would it be better for the boat if the wheel were mounted at the forward end of the cockpit? With small wheels mounted either side of the companionway & properly geared/pulleyed, your weight would have less negative effect on the boat, you maximize cockpit space, and keep transom, lazarette & rudderhead accessible.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

titustiger27 said:


> The first time I heard of it.. I heard it described it as
> 
> "Man's ability to rise to his own incompetence"
> 
> I learned this during the sexist 70's


hmmmmmmmmmmm now i believe i have heard that before


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> As long as you don't do anything you can't undo, you should be OK.
> 
> ''The Peter Principle is a management theory which suggests that organizations risk filling management roles with people who are incompetent if they promote those who are performing well at their current role, rather than those who have proven abilities at the intended role. It is named after Laurence J. Peter who co-authored the 1969 humorous book 'The Peter Principle: Why Things Always Go Wrong' with Raymond Hull. They suggest that people will tend to be promoted until they reach their 'position of incompetence'."
> 
> Could you use a tiller mounting bolt that allows you to adjust the friction/pressure between rudderhead & tiller so that the tiller stays up where you put it?


there are plenty of ways to achieve that end result. i do intend to do something like that, too. it's good to be able to leave the helm, for a few minutes, if you have to.



> Re: wheel steering --- I know, in the future, if, maybe --- this is just brainstorming -- instead of at the rear of the cockpit, blocking the rudderhead, and making emergency-tiller installation difficult or impossible, would it be better for the boat if the wheel were mounted at the forward end of the cockpit? With small wheels mounted either side of the companionway & properly geared/pulleyed, your weight would have less negative effect on the boat, you maximize cockpit space, and keep transom, lazarette & rudderhead accessible.


that's an interesting idea but it does have a few drawbacks. it would add a good bit of complexity. simplicity is always best. but it would also put the wheels in the way every time someone had to go forward. but it's an interesting idea.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

in the possible futue, i would use a chain cable system. that's the easiest to fabricate. there are a lot of different sprockets and chain sizes available for motorcycle style chain, as it is used in many industrial applications. i could fabricate the entire system. you can always find a fairly priced used wheel on ebay. i'd mount the wheel to stern, probably with the whell on the forward side of the pedestal. then i could sit to the side and steer, not much differently then if i had a tiller. it would be simple and i could do the whole thnig above the cockpit sole; making a housing to cover the workings of it. i could even weld a fitting for an emergency push/pull tiller to the top of the quadrant.

edson says that, with proper mainenance, the cable and chain type of steering is reliable. of course, i could always design and fabricate a worm screw type or use light auto steering parts to do rack and pinion.

but, in the end, i might never go the wheel route. although, i will admit, the added room is tempting.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

captain jack said:


> hmmmmmmmmmmm now i believe i have heard that before


I just googled "Sailor's Principle™"

I just coined a phrase...

To shrink to the size of comfort


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

manatee said:


> As long as you don't do anything you can't undo, you should be OK.
> 
> ''The Peter Principle is a management theory which suggests that organizations risk filling management roles with people who are incompetent if they promote those who are performing well at their current role, rather than those who have proven abilities at the intended role. It is named after Laurence J. Peter who co-authored the 1969 humorous book 'The Peter Principle: Why Things Always Go Wrong' with Raymond Hull. They suggest that people will tend to be promoted until they reach their 'position of incompetence'."
> 
> < snip >


I've heard it both ways... now that you mention it. But mostly as a person keeps getting promoted until he gets to one position above his best position..

In the other use... I heard that it is the reasons why manuals are not very good. When they want someone to put together a manual how to assemble a bbq grill... they don't pick the guy/gal out of the assembly line who is the best worker, thus losing production, they take the slacker --- who probably doesn't understand much to begin with


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Lower pic is of a more usual type Wheel on a 26 ft Seafarer on ebay now. Other type is on 35 ft Mariner.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> Lower pic is of a more usual type Wheel on a 26 ft Seafarer on ebay now. Other type is on 35 ft Mariner.


the top one is something like i was looking to do. i bet that one uses a worm gear. i can't enlarge the lower one to see it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i found the seafarer on ebay. that wheel is set up to have the helmsman sit behind the wheel.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Only been half following the steering wheel converstation, but what if you stationed the wheel forward (more like a motor boat) like next to the hatchway, so it wouldn't interfere with the cockpit?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

titustiger27 said:


> Only been half following the steering wheel converstation, but what if you stationed the wheel forward (more like a motor boat) like next to the hatchway, so it wouldn't interfere with the cockpit?


manatee suggested that in post#67 and i responded in post#69.

in an of itself, the suggestion holds merit. in this particular case, the design of the boat would make such a suggestion unworkable. the wheels ( in the original forward helm suggestion, tandem wheels would be used: one to port and one to starboard ) would be in the way of anyone trying to walk forward of the cockpit.

it would be fairly easy to do. the quardrant could be above the cockpit sole. there would be plenty of access for an emergency tiller. the cables could go through the cockpit, at the bottom of the benches, and run forwards on the inner walls of each quarter berth, to blocks at the rear of the cabin. then up to wheels on either side. probably to chain over a sprocket. one behind each wheel. then down to blocks below the level of the companionway. the cable would run below the companionway, between these blocks.

it could be done easier with only one wheel, like a power boat, but then you wouldn't be able to shift your body weight to wind on both tacks. you could do it with a center wheel, if the companionway was offset....but it's not.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

due to the cockpit layout, if i were to ever opt for a wheel, the best way would be to extend the stern post to the desired height of the center of the wheel. use bevel gears to transition the rotation to the horizontal plane to attach to the wheel, and simply build a pedestal to contain the two shafts. it would be direct. no cables or chains. just as bullet proof as rack and pinion or worm gear.

the bevel gear on the wheel shaft side could be larger than the bevel gear of the rudder shaft; enough to grant you proper mechanical advantage in comparison to the diameter of the wheel. figuring out the sizes of the gears would be fairly simple, really. 

if you had a 3' diameter wheel, and your wheel shaft bevel gear was three times the size of the rudder shaft bevel gear, it would give you the leverage of a 4.5' tiller.

you'd just have to grease the gears regularly to keep the whole thing working smoothly.

the wheel would be on the forward side of the pedestal. i could steer from the side. there would be plenty of cockpit space. the wheel could be fairly low to the cockpit sole, since i would not be standing to use it.


thinking about it, it might be best to have the console forwards of the wheel. still easily achieved. just mount the rudder shaft gear at the height that the tiller fitting presently is. you could use a chain drive set up to go from the 90 degree shaft, with the bigger bevel gear, to the wheel shaft. you could always get your gear reduction in the chain sprockets. in which case, i'd use mitre gears instead of bevel gears.

not quite as derect but a high quality motorcycle chain would last nearly forever, under those circumstances. proper chain tension could be achieved by a simple chain tensioner. for something like this, that could be spring loaded. self adjusting.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> manatee suggested that in post#67 and i responded in post#69.
> 
> in an of itself, the suggestion holds merit. in this particular case, the design of the boat would make such a suggestion unworkable. the wheels ( in the original forward helm suggestion, tandem wheels would be used: one to port and one to starboard ) would be in the way of anyone trying to walk forward of the cockpit.
> 
> ...


_TWIN WHEELS_ on a Cal 27 ???

I'd say this thread has officially 'Jumped the Shark'...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> _TWIN WHEELS_ on a Cal 27 ???
> 
> I'd say this thread has officially 'Jumped the Shark'...


it had been suggested. i wasn't planning on it, though. too many components to go wrong. as i mentioned, deck access would be an issue. but the biggest thing is that, as the original suggestion noted, the wheels would be small; requiring a lot of gear reduction. really big gears on back of the wheels and small grear at the rudder. and it would, most definately, be overkill, here.

besides, i don't want to stand and steer. and it wouldn't be comfortable to sit and steer with that set up.

but the whole thing of far (a) forward wheel(s) got brought up twice so i figured it wouldn't hurt to address it.

i am going to try to shorten the tiller and stick with that. but i have a plan for if i decide i want to go a wheel. it's a plan that won't cost me a fortune and one that i can fabricate, myself.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> it had been suggested. i wasn't planning on it, though. too many components to go wrong. as i mentioned, deck access would be an issue. but the biggest thing is that, as the original suggestion noted, the wheels would be small; requiring a lot of gear reduction. really big gears on back of the wheels and small grear at the rudder. and it would, most definately, be overkill, here.
> 
> besides, i don't want to stand and steer. and it wouldn't be comfortable to sit and steer with that set up.
> 
> ...


(humor)
Actually, instead of mechanical linkages, I was thinking of a block and tackle system with multi-part purchase to gain mechanical advantage.....

*DANG!* --- we really could use a tongue-in-cheek smilie --- 
(/humor)


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Yes, there are instructions for Doing this very thing on internet. It was used in years
past and maybe by Captain Bligh on the Bounty .


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> Yes, there are instructions for Doing this very thing on internet. It was used in years
> past and maybe by Captain Bligh on the Bounty .


links?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

manatee said:


> (humor)
> Actually, instead of mechanical linkages, I was thinking of a block and tackle system with multi-part purchase to gain mechanical advantage.....
> 
> *DANG!* --- we really could use a tongue-in-cheek smilie ---
> (/humor)


Well, I have _never_ seen such a set up employed as part of a steering system on any modern boat, other than as part of a connection of a windvane to a wheel... Probably, for good reason... 

The desire to inject and configure needlessly complex solutions to problems that shouldn't exist to begin with, never ceases to amaze... 

That tiller can easily be shortened considerably... Keep in mind, any tillerpilot that might be used on that boat, will likely attach to the tiller at a point only 18 inches forward of the rudder post...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> That tiller can easily be shortened considerably... Keep in mind, any tillerpilot that might be used on that boat, will likely attach to the tiller at a point only 18 inches forward of the rudder post...


that's a rather useful piece of information. i should think some sort of tiller lock or tiller pilot would be a needful thing to have.

as far as wheels go, i have an idea that i haven't seen anywhere, yet.

everyone uses a quadrant, or tries to find a way to take the bugs out of a very short tiller in place of a quadrant, with lines leading to blocks on the side and then back in to the pedestal and up to the wheel. but why?

why not use a pull/pull system? instead of a set up that, basically, puts the pull point in front of the rudder post, like a tiller does, why not mount a T, perpendicular to the direction of a normal tiller, to the top of the rudder post? a line could go directly from each side of the T to the blocks, at the base of the pedestal, then up to the wheel.

each line would have positive pull until the end of the T faced directly to the block pulling it. of course, you never need to turn the rudder that far. so, you have stops at certain points near the base of the rudder, to stop it from turning too far. the blocks at the base of the pedestal could be fairly close together. it would always have positive pull. it would be a 'closed' system, like the throttles on modern motorcycles. the pulling cable actine like the throttle cable while the other acted as the return cable.

any thoughts about that? reasons it might not work as i think it would? seems simple enough to me. but, maybe i am missing something. if no one can find a flaw in this design, i will use it if i decide to do a wheel.

a similar set up would be to use a 'sideways' short tiller, essentially just one side of said T, with a solid, adjustable, connector rod linking it to another arm at the bottom of a vertical shaft running through the pedestal. it would be, basically, a wheel version of the scandinavial push pull rudders that you see on faerings. te only drawback i see to this, compared to the above cable idea, is that you do need bevel or mitre gears at the top to meet up with the horizontal wheel shaft. the cable set up doesn't need that. but the completely solid nature of this set up would be more durable.

although, personally, i think the ease of manufacture and low cost of parts for the above cable system would outweight the benefits of a non-cable system. the costliest part of the cable system would be a used wheel from ebay. other than that, you would need a motorcycle drive sprocket, a smallish length of motorcycle chain, two blocks, and some steel to weld up the T fitting. the pedestal could be fabricated from heavy gauge PVC pipe. you'd also need a short bit of round stock, for the wheel shaft, and two bearings for it to ride on. probably cost less that $200 for everything plus a bottle of rum to drink while you sat back and looked on the finished product with a smile on your face.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I have _never_ seen such a set up employed as part of a steering system on any modern boat, other than as part of a connection of a windvane to a wheel... Probably, for good reason...
> 
> The desire to inject and configure needlessly complex solutions to problems that shouldn't exist to begin with, never ceases to amaze...
> 
> That tiller can easily be shortened considerably... Keep in mind, any tillerpilot that might be used on that boat, will likely attach to the tiller at a point only 18 inches forward of the rudder post...


 You poor, deprived, benighted young whippersnappers never heard of Rube Goldberg?

Rube Goldberg : Home of the Official Rube Goldberg Machine Contests

13 Crazy Genius Rube Goldberg Machines


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> You poor, deprived, benighted young whippersnappers never heard of Rube Goldberg?
> 
> Rube Goldberg : Home of the Official Rube Goldberg Machine Contests
> 
> 13 Crazy Genius Rube Goldberg Machines


i would tend to think that power doors and power windows, on a car, are good examples of making a simple thing far more complicated and expensive than is necessary...and everyone accepts them as being a good idea:laugher

heck, electric starters on a motorcyle are another good example. i got rid of my electric starter and run my chopper kick start only. think about it. a kick starter is a simple level. kick it downwards and the bike starts. add an electric starter and you need a bigger battery, starter gears, a solenoid, extra wires of the heavy sort and the skinny sort, and a button on the handlebar....all so someone can push a button with their fingers instead of pushing a lever with their foot.

humans just love to find the most complicated way to do stuff. isn't that why we gave up carburators and points,( both easy to work on, dependable, and inexpensive to repair), and went to computer controlled fuel injection and electronic ignition( both of which are more complex to work on, less reliable [ think about how many times you end up replacing various sensors ], require special tools and equipment, and far more expensive to repair) ?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> that's a rather useful piece of information. i should think some sort of tiller lock or tiller pilot would be a needful thing to have.
> 
> as far as wheels go, i have an idea that i haven't seen anywhere, yet.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm having a bit of difficulty envisioning precisely what you're describing there 

I suppose you could consider a version of Etap's Vertical Tiller? I always thought it was one of the dumber things I'd seen (the 'helm seat' behind the tiller in the pic below would appear to afford one of the more uncomfortable, tiring steering positions in all of Creation), but Charlie Doane certainly liked it ... Needless to say, they've never really caught on...

ETAP YACHTS: Surviving the 2012 Apocalypse (and Bankruptcy?)


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Sorry, I'm having a bit of difficulty envisioning precisely what you're describing there
> 
> I suppose you could consider a version of Etap's Vertical Tiller? I always thought it was one of the dumber things I'd seen (the 'helm seat' behind the tiller in the pic below would appear to afford one of the more uncomfortable, tiring steering positions in all of Creation), but Charlie Doane certainly liked it ... Needless to say, they've never really caught on...
> 
> ETAP YACHTS: Surviving the 2012 Apocalypse (and Bankruptcy?)


seems like an overly complicated way to make a whipstaff, to me. let me try to describe it simpler.

most cable/chain set ups put a quadrant on the rudder post. this acts to replace the tiller. you can't just cut the tiller really short because it doesn't work too well, that way. it's complicated.

anyhow a quadrant is like a really short tiller. it is a handle that runs from the rudder shaft forwards. it has to be pulled in a side to side motion.

in order to do this, most cable set ups run the cables out to the sides of the boat, through blocks, and then back in to the blocks at the base of the pedestal.

the cable runs, from those blocks, up to the wheel.

what i am saying is to mount a T across the rudderpost that runs from side to side, instead of back to front like a tiller. also, unlike a tiller, it wouldn't just be on one side of the rudder post. it would extend equally to both sides.

the cables attach to the ends of this T fitting. they run directly forward to blocks at the base of the pedestal. then they run up to the wheel.

you replace a complicated quadrant fitting with a simple bar fitting. you lose a set of blocks. don't need them. it would take less room to run cables.

the reason you need to usea quadrant instead of just a really short tiller is that the end of the tiller moves on an arc. if a cable pulls directly to the side of the tiller, it loses it's steady pull at a certain point. the quadrant fixes this. there are other ways to fix that, too.

however, my idea wouldn't suffer from this problem because it doesn't need to pull the lever so far as the other system. you only turn the rudder so far.

basically, my idea would work like a norweigian push pull tiller...only with cable. although, the bottom idea, part B if you like, would use a solid connector and be much like the norweigian push pull tiller. but part B would need a vertical shaft, in the pedestal and gears at the top. more solid but more complex.

is that better? i could try to draw a diagram in paintbrush, if i am still too unclear, but i won't promist the quality of such a drawing!:laugher i can't just draw it on paper and scan it in because i am snowed in at my girlfriend's house and she has no scanner.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

[URL="

the image to the left is how it's usually done. the image to the right is what i was suggesting. if you were really stuck on the 'backward' steering style of the tiller, you could even run the lines to the opposite blocks, at the bottom of the pedestal, and the wheel would steer backwards, too.

hmmmm. i should have altered that picture a little more. with my idea, instead of happening below the cockpit sole, the T and all cables would be above the sole. i will work on that, so the pic is more accurate. give me a min.

[URL="

ok. that's more like what it would look like.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Jack,

Try using the front of a bike for an example: handlebars are your 'T' on top of rudderpost, fork & front wheel are your rudder, attach steering cables at handgrips.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> no. it wouldn't. no harder than adding a tiller extension to a shorter tiller. but, if the boat needs a long tiller for leverage, that would end up being a useless modification. you'd always have to have it extended.


Just to clarify my idea: This would be a ridgid extension. It wouldn't have a joint at the end of the tiller like a hiking stick. The extension could be installed for conditions that require more leverage. And removed when not needed.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Jack,
> 
> Try using the front of a bike for an example: handlebars are your 'T' on top of rudderpost, fork & front wheel are your rudder, attach steering cables at handgrips.


ja! das stimmt! that's exactly what i am getting at. so, what do you think?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Barquito said:


> Just to clarify my idea: This would be a ridgid extension. It wouldn't have a joint at the end of the tiller like a hiking stick. The extension could be installed for conditions that require more leverage. And removed when not needed.


yeah. my sailing dinghy used to sort of be that way. it had a smaller tube inside of a bigger tube, for the tiller. you could move the inside tube in or out, as long as you twisted while pushing or pulling, to get more or less tiller. i don't think the PO intended it that way. i just think they wanted a longer tiller and i 'discovered' you could do that with their solution to get one.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> ja! das stimmt! that's exactly what i am getting at. so, what do you think?


Should work. Some thoughts: How much distance between pillar and rudder? (Worried about a tripping hazard some dark night.) Change drum diameter inside pillar to change "gear ratio" --> how many turns of wheel for full rudder displacement. Turnbuckles to adjust tension? Any real-life examples? Maybe make a model to work out kinks? For my part, I think I would miss the feel of the conversation between water and rudder that the tiller gives.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Should work. Some thoughts: How much distance between pillar and rudder? (Worried about a tripping hazard some dark night.) Change drum diameter inside pillar to change "gear ratio" --> how many turns of wheel for full rudder displacement. Turnbuckles to adjust tension? Any real-life examples? Maybe make a model to work out kinks? For my part, I think I would miss the feel of the conversation between water and rudder that the tiller gives.


i am still planning on trying a shorter tiller before i go the wheel route but it really would make a lot better space in the cockpit.

not a lot of space between the rudder post and pedestal. i want it as close to the rudder post as functionally possible, since i won't be standing behind it to steer. i would probably have tension adjusters on the ends of the T.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

another method i have been considering would be a chain drive method. no cables. 

there would be a sprocket on the rudder post. in the pedistal would be a vertical shaft. at the bottom, a sprocket. at it's top, a bevel gear or mitre gear. the wheel shaft would have a bevel or mitre gear to mesh with the one on the vertical shaft and a chain would link the pedestal sprocket with the rudder post sprocket. you would have to have an adjustable idler sprocket between the rudder post and pedestal to maintain proper tension. you would have to have 2 bearings for each shaft.

the components would need greased from time to time.

in either system, i'd be looking for 1.5 turns lock to lock.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> i am still planning on trying a shorter tiller before i go the wheel route but it really would make a lot better space in the cockpit.
> 
> not a lot of space between the rudder post and pedestal. i want it as close to the rudder post as functionally possible, since i won't be standing behind it to steer. i would probably have tension adjusters on the ends of the T.


 One good thing about the tiller and a fully-stocked cockpit,- you shouldn't be doing anything hasty. It could even be fun playing musical chairs. When the weather goes dodgy, you'll send the passengers below and have all the room you need.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

IIRC, you still haven't sailed this boat yet. I'd suggest sailing her first before modifying the tiller length. You need to see how the helm is balanced. You might need the long tiller for leverage.

I know people who get sore shoulders from fighting weather helm with their tiller.

You can't assume that other boats of similar length should have a similar tiller - all boat sail differently. Even sister ships of the same design could sail differently due to different sail age/shape, rudder design and/or custom modifications, mast rake, boat pitch, etc. You need to learn about these things first, and the only way to know for sure is to sail her first.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> IIRC, you still haven't sailed this boat yet. I'd suggest sailing her first before modifying the tiller length. You need to see how the helm is balanced. You might need the long tiller for leverage.
> 
> I know people who get sore shoulders from fighting weather helm with their tiller.
> 
> You can't assume that other boats of similar length should have a similar tiller - all boat sail differently. Even sister ships of the same design could sail differently due to different sail age/shape, rudder design and/or custom modifications, mast rake, boat pitch, etc. You need to learn about these things first, and the only way to know for sure is to sail her first.


what i was going to do was to sail the boat and steer with my hand at different points on the tiller. first, decide how short is too short. then, decide how long is comfortable. then, i will make a new tiller based on my findings.

as you say, it's no good just wacking off random lengths, without some idea of what i am doing.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

TakeFive said:


> IIRC, you still haven't sailed this boat yet. I'd suggest sailing her first before modifying the tiller length. You need to see how the helm is balanced. You might need the long tiller for leverage.
> 
> I know people who get sore shoulders from fighting weather helm with their tiller.
> 
> You can't assume that other boats of similar length should have a similar tiller - all boat sail differently. Even sister ships of the same design could sail differently due to different sail age/shape, rudder design and/or custom modifications, mast rake, boat pitch, etc. You need to learn about these things first, and the only way to know for sure is to sail her first.


Yes, one day out on an old wooden boat I go out on, we had some good strong winds, nothing crazy (20 knots) but I had to brace my legs across from me, and use my leg mussels. and this is on a 32 foot boat to boot. I think we should have reefed, or at least put the centerboard down. but I was just a deckhand at the time so I just enjoyed it!


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Not trying to sell you on the wheel, I'm a tiller man myself, but I stumbled over this and wondered if you had seen it. Lots of pics of different steering gear.

Quadrant


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Not trying to sell you on the wheel, I'm a tiller man myself, but I stumbled over this and wondered if you had seen it. Lots of pics of different steering gear.
> 
> Quadrant


thanks. no i haven't. i will check it out. you, sir, are a wealth of information!


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

At your service, sir.

Librarian/Research Assistant at the Great Library of Alexandria is my dream job.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> At your service, sir.
> 
> Librarian/Research Assistant at the Great Library of Alexandria is my dream job.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

we ask ourselves, when we get in a fix, what would popeye do in a tight spot like this? he'd race for his true love, and easily win it, in an all spinach can with a mast stuck in it.

lol. love that line. 

the more i read, and see what other ideas are out there, the more i think a chain drive set up, as i suggested above, would be great for a DIY set up. i was doing some thinking about how i would design it and i think that the chain sprocket on the rudder post should be between 4 and 6 times the size of the one on the shaft that passes through the pedestal. that would be 1 to 1.5 turns of the wheel from 'lock to lock', assuming that you don't need the rudder to turn more than 45 degrees to each side. 

is that a logical assumption? should i narrow that up a bit, since the rudder stalls before 45 degrees?

anoter question. i have been using 1.5 turns from lock to lock as a base-line because it was suggested. however, i'm not sure why one turn lock to lock wouldn't be good. i would think it would give a similar feel, to the wheel, as you have with a tiller. 

cost-wise, you'd be looking at no more than 40 bucks for the sprockets, maybe less. another 20 for bearings. around 100 for the mitre gears, where the wheel shaft meets the vertical shaft in the pedestal. 80 bucks for a decent non o-ring motorcycle chain. maybe less. it could be a fairly short chain, compared to one used on a motorcycle.

maybe another 40 for misc materials. you could probably do it for 250 plus the cost of a used wheel on ebay. i have seen some of them go fairly cheaply. so, maybe 300, a little over or a little under. using a cable set up would be cheaper and easier to build but i like this idea because it's all 'hard' parts. no cable. then again, with proper maintenance, cable systems last, dependably, for a long time. maybe the 'hard part' advantage wouldn't really offset the cost difference.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Good ol' bicycle tech: "The bicycle was the last advance in technology everybody understands. Anybody who can ride one can understand how it works." -- Stewart Parker, Spokesong

Considerations:

Should be just about bulletproof mechanically. 
Harder to turn the wheel (subject to wheel diameter).
Snappier response to steering input (could be good or bad).
Less 'fine-tuning' the rudder position.
Unknown amount of feedback through the wheel (I know Masefield speaks of "the wheel's kick" so there must be some, but how to gauge it?)

"Sea-Fever"

I must down to the seas again, 
to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship 
and a star to steer her by, 
And the wheel's kick and the wind's song 
and the white sail's shaking, 
And a grey mist on the sea's face, 
and a grey dawn breaking.

I must down to the seas again, 
for the call of the running tide 
Is a wild call and a clear call 
that may not be denied; 
And all I ask is a windy day 
with the white clouds flying, 
And the flung spray and the blown spume, 
and the sea-gulls crying.

I must down to the seas again, 
to the vagrant gypsy life, 
To the gull's way and the whale's way 
where the wind's like a whetted knife; 
And all I ask is a merry yarn 
from a laughing fellow-rover 
And quiet sleep and a sweet dream 
when the long trick's over.

By John Masefield (1878-1967). (English Poet Laureate, 1930-1967.)


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Huh ? If you can think all that through, you can build it. After you do, you can give yourself a Grade A to F like in school and give us pictures please ! (smile)
How about Atv or motorcycle sprockets & chains ?

Another not so obvious question, that seems obvious. Which way will you turn the wheel to turn
to Port, to Starboard ? (compared to your Tiller ) -Unless you have covered this in your 11 page discussion. It may take some getting used to.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Good ol' bicycle tech: "The bicycle was the last advance in technology everybody understands. Anybody who can ride one can understand how it works." -- Stewart Parker, Spokesong
> 
> Considerations:
> 
> ...


lol. i guess it is bicycle tech. i was thinking motorcycle, but that part isn't much different, is it? it is true. not many machines more bulletproof than a simple one speed bicycle.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> Huh ? If you can think all that through, you can build it. After you do, you can give yourself a Grade A to F like in school and give us pictures please ! (smile)
> How about Atv or motorcycle sprockets & chains ?


motorcycle sprockets and chain is what i was thinking. you can buy sprockets and chain at the local tractor place, cheaper. but motorcycle components, including the chain, are tougher. for instance, you can buy 10 feet of 530 chain for 15 bucks, at the tractor place. a much shorter length of the same size chain, specifically for motorcycles, would be around 80 bucks. but the motorcycle chain is designed to take the shock of sudden acceleration. the tractor chain isn't. i used to replace my chains with the tractor chains as it was cheaper but real motorcycle chain lasts tree times as long. so, i don't do that any more.

oh, i can definately build it. i built my own chopper. a wheel set up like this should be a piece of cake. i might just do it, too. but that's for after i get her sailing and try shortening the tiller, first. more important things for right now. however, since the weather has been keeping me from working on her much, lately, i am researching and planning for the future. waste no time, i always say. even the time spent taking a crap should be productive. if your body isn't active, at the moment, your mind should be.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

you guys may find i am missing some 'h's in my posts. the 'h' key isn't behaving itself, today. so, here are a bunch of 'h's you can use to fill in the blanks.

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

let me know if you run out and need more.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> lol. i guess it is bicycle tech. i was thinking motorcycle, but that part isn't muc differemt, is it? it is true. not many machines more bulletproof than a simple one speed bicycle.


Motorcycle == motorized bicycle. 

Bicycle tech design + motorcycle parts == heavy-duty mechanicals, cheap parts.


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Wow, I didn't know you had that mech experience/know-how. I added one more question above, if you don't mind. Unless its already covered in this discussion. Not read everything yet. (I missed the previous motorcycle comments while I was typing. Didn't try to repeat you.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> you guys may find i am missing some 'h's in my posts. the 'h' key isn't behaving itself, today. so, here are a bunch of 'h's you can use to fill in the blanks.
> 
> hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
> 
> let me know if you run out and need more.


That's just your Cockney accent showing.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> Wow, I didn't know you had that mech experience/know-how. I added one more question above, if you don't mind. Unless its already covered in this discussion. Not read everything yet. (I missed the previous motorcycle comments while I was typing. Didn't try to repeat you.





sidney777 said:


> Another not so obvious question, that seems obvious. Which way will you turn the wheel to turn
> to Port, to Starboard ? (compared to your Tiller ) -Unless you have covered this in your 11 page discussion. It may take some getting used to.


i touched on that a little. with the cable idea i had, you could rig it to turn either way. just depends on how you route your cables. with the chain set up, it would depend n which side of the pedestal the wheel was on. if the wheel was on the front of the pedestal, it would turn opposite of the way a car would turn...so, like a tiller. if it was, conventionally, behind the pedestal, it would turn like a car wheel.

to be honest, i'm not sure which i would prefer. i think, i would prefer it to turn as a normal wheel. i know everyone says it would feel unnatural to use a wheel if you are used to a tiller but it's not a tiller. it's a wheel and i would be aware of it.

it's kind of like my bike. i learned to ride stock motorcycles with toe shifters and rode that way for decades. i have been running right hand suicide shifters ( hand shifter ) for my last two choppers. the minute i switched i adapted without a problem. i can switch to a stock bike and back again without issues. i would think it would be the same with a wheel on a sailboat.

plus, i won't be standing behind it, i will be sitting to one side. instead of side to side, my arm will be moving up and down, basically.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Should be just about bulletproof mechanically.
> *Harder to turn the wheel (subject to wheel diameter).*
> Snappier response to steering input (could be good or bad).
> Less 'fine-tuning' the rudder position.
> Unknown amount of feedback through the wheel (I know Masefield speaks of "the wheel's kick" so there must be some, but how to gauge it?)


that's where gearing comes in. let's say, for ease of discussion, i use a one complete turn of the wheel, lock to lock, set up. i will probably use a 30" wheel, or around that size.

the tiller is 51" long. the radius of the wheel is 15". so, the tiller has around 3.375 times the leverage of the wheel. however, gearing the wheel to turn one rotation for every quarter rotation of the tiller sprocket adds a significant amount of mechanical advantage, in the form of torque.

it's very similar to how a motorcycle is geared. small drive gear/ larger driven gear. if the driven gear was as small as the drive gear, a motorcycle couldn't take off. it wouldn't have enough 'grunt'.

so, gearing the wheel, this way, will give my arm more 'grunt'. in this case, 4 times the 'grunt' as the 15" radius of the wheel would give me. the tiller isn't 4 times longer than the radius of the wheel. so, it should give me more leverage than the tiller could at full length.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> you guys may find i am missing some 'h's in my posts. the 'h' key isn't behaving itself, today. so, here are a bunch of 'h's you can use to fill in the blanks.
> 
> hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
> 
> let me know if you run out and need more.


My cat pulled off the "," off my keyboard. So there is just a little black post sticking up that I miss half the time I try and use it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Group9 said:


> My cat pulled off the "," off my keyboard. So there is just a little black post sticking up that I miss half the time I try and use it.


that's funny. never had one of the cats mess with my computer but they do tend to get into stuff.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

ok. i was down at the boat this weekend, working, and i did some experimenting. i think that a tiller will be best, all things considered. if i sjorten my 51" tiller by a foot and change the shape so it is higher, sooner, it will work just fine. for one thing, the storage compartment is right where a wheel would be. that means the wheel would have to be small enough, in diameter, to not overhang the benches. but, also, with the tiller, i can see how it would be easier to single hand. so, that's my plan unless i find the tiller to just be a real PIA after a year of sailing.

this thread has been a really good exercise in creative thinking. if i ever do go for a wheel, on any future boat, i have all kinds of good ideas as to how to build one, myself, and save a lot of money doing it. thanks for all the ideas and input, guys.


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Long Tiller Use....OR Tiller Extension... I used my tiller by steering and reaching from Inside my cabin . I was 10+ miles from marina in terrible lightning storm on Lake Michigan (no inlets, no bays). I was glad to do so. I've read that it is best to go down below in severe lightning.
Or use long tiller in a big downpour. But a tillerpilot & remote could do the job. As you know, some people like Tillers because you can lift up & have the whole cockpit for use at anchor.

ALSO, use long tiller in cold weather sitting forward behind Cabin to block wind, as is done while motoring 100s or 1000s of miles in the ICW, intra-coastal waterway. & to reach into cabin for food, drink, radio, etc.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> Long Tiller Use....OR Tiller Extension... I used my tiller by steering and reaching from Inside my cabin . I was 10+ miles from marina in terrible lightning storm on Lake Michigan (no inlets, no bays). I was glad to do so. I've read that it is best to go down below in severe lightning.
> Or use long tiller in a big downpour. But a tillerpilot & remote could do the job. As you know, some people like Tillers because you can lift up & have the whole cockpit for use at anchor.
> 
> ALSO, use long tiller in cold weather sitting forward behind Cabin to block wind, as is done while motoring 100s or 1000s of miles in the ICW, intra-coastal waterway. & to reach into cabin for food, drink, radio, etc.


i can definately see those benefits with a long tiller but the tiller is just too long. it makes movement around the cockpit very difficult. it's not going to be overly short by reducing the length by a foot but it will greatly increase the ease of movement around the cockpit.

as it is, right now, if you aren't careful when climbing out of the companionway, you run right into it before you are even completely clear of the cabin. i can only imagine how much of a PIA it would be when you change tacks and both of you have to clear it to switch sides. not terrible for the helmsman because he could just step over it. not so the crew.

definately going to stay with a tiller, though. at least for now.


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