# The Dark Side



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

For a variety of reasons some of us contemplate going to the dark side. Leaving the glorious sun and wind of our cockpits for the bowels of engine rooms and cocooned gloom of wheel houses.
Given the difficulties due to increasing weather, the more frequent visits to the orthopod, and expenses of keeping a sailing boat going wife is on me to think about trawlers. She’s tired of working the boat in freezing cold spray, chasing the wear and tear on the rig, lines and sails. She points out with appropriate choices we would still have the range to do want we want and annual fuel costs approach annual sailboat maintenance costs when looked at over the years.
If we switch I want an Artnautica 58 or a Kadet 14 but both are out of budget. Have thought about a used Diesel Duck, Nordhavn 43 or 47 or converted troller. I’m in a holding pattern for at least the next two years fortunately as we’ve already made cruising plans to which we are both in agreement and committed to.
Wondering if any others are contemplating the switch. If so to what boat? How do you envision it changing your life? Why?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Not contemplating. Move to fair weather sailing and hire a good mechanic to do some of the maintenance. I don't find sailing physically demanding. Some repair/maintenance work gets harder to do as you loose ROM and some strength. I don't mind the non sailing "work" as it keeps me on my toys and confident that things are in good repair and I know how to service them. I recently did a re build of my Groco Model K head. It was more work than I imagined. I removed the head, completely disassembled it to parts, replaced the shaft, all rubber parts, painted and re assembled and re installed it. Granted I have the time to do it. And at times I was thinking how the hell do I get this part out (or back in).... but in the end it was done. More satisfying that net surfing. The rebuild was spendy but less than replacing it with a new one. This is what you have to do if you are into your boat. I wouldn't touch my car... it's just transportation... I let Audi deal with it... and it's too complicated to DIY. I can service almost anything on the boat.... I do and I find satisfaction in doing it.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

outbound said:


> Wondering if any others are contemplating the switch. If so to what boat? How do you envision it changing your life? Why?


I started contemplating it month 2 when starting cruising 2.5 years ago. It's a pretty common thing among cruisers and I've met many who have done it. Then there is the other Dark Side where you give up the water life and get a RV.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Don0190 said:


> I started contemplating it month 2 when starting cruising 2.5 years ago. It's a pretty common thing among cruisers and I've met many who have done it. Then there is the other Dark Side where you give up the water life and get a RV.


These are not alternative to the "sailing experience". All boats float... but that's where the similarity ends. One could argue that you can cruise a trawler and so it easier on the skipper. Hardly. And RV is not analogous except that people cruise the country on roads.

When owning sailing vessel no longer works for you, turn in your deck shoes.... or crew on OPBs.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Nordhavn have a new 40 footer on the drawingboard for USD$700,000 all up. Ocean crossing range, no flybridge (unfortunately), 2 x 80ph deisels(??)

I read an article, properly written, that shows a displacement hull cruised judiciously can be economical in an area, say, US east coast to Bahamas, annually, and USA east cost to Caribbean.
[Chopped ambiguous line]
I like the trawlers designed by fishing boat type naval architects, not the Special Interest dudes like Steve Dashew or the diesel ducks, or the solar powered cats etc - Just give me a seamans boat and leave the damn politics at home.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Absolutely, we talk seriously about it every year. We would go much bigger than our current sailboat which we mostly own ddue to local draft and bridge height restrictions, if we had a big stink pot we could easily spend the whole summer on it fishing and swimming the days away. 

For us, the perfect stink pot would be a simple pontoon house boat, which i beleive would be capable of some pretty big trips, like the great loop. Just need to time the weather windows in a couple of places; Lake Michigan and New Jersey. We have freinds who are house boaters, they are a lot more comfortable than us. We would carry a couple of fast sailing dingys on the roof.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Nordhavn have a new 40 footer on the drawingboard for USD$700,000 all up. Ocean crossing range, no flybridge (unfortunately), 2 x 80ph deisels(??)
> 
> I read an article, properly written, that shows a displacement hull cruised judiciously can be economical in an area, say, US east coast to Bahamas, anually, and USA east cost to Caribbean.
> When I say properly written, I mean that some articles compare a fast motor boat against a sailboat if you buy new sails of $25k each year.
> ...


who spends $25K a year for sails?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Arcb said:


> Absolutely, we talk seriously about it every year. We would go much bigger than our current sailboat which we mostly own ddue to local draft and bridge height restrictions, if we had a big stink pot we could easily spend the whole summer on it fishing and swimming the days away.
> 
> For us, the perfect stink pot would be a simple pontoon house boat, which i beleive would be capable of some pretty big trips, like the great loop. Just need to time the weather windows in a couple of places; Lake Michigan and New Jersey. We have freinds who are house boaters, they are a lot more comfortable than us. We would carry a couple of fast sailing dingys on the roof.


Youve probably looked at the old Yukon Deltas.
Can beach em


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SanderO said:


> who spends $25K a year for sails?


Some racers, I guess. Not me.
I cut the line as it was ambiguous. 

Mark


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Unless we're on a long passage, we often find ourselves motor sailing or, when the wind is really down, simply motoring with the main strapped down and acting to steady the boat. That, of course, makes us a "slow motorboat". Given that, I don't see much difference between a sail boat and dedicated motor boat save that a dedicated motor boat may offer some creature comforts that our boat does not, albeit perhaps more meaningful to my (much) better half.

Further, I know more than a few sailors that, getting long in the tooth, have switched to trawlers, several of whom also carry a sailing dinghy on deck to get their sailing "fix" whenever they've arrived where they're headed.

We can almost always tell a former sailor on a motor boat as they extend us courtesies as we pass one another, often slowing to reduce their wake's, and our rolls, as they pass. We thank them for that courtesy via VHF when it happens.

If a motor-boat keeps one on the water, so much the better, No?

FWIW...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

If maintenance cost is a concern... sure old boats want more spendy maintenance...Aside from sails and rigging which have pretty long service lives there is little difference in gear to maintain. In the end it's the sailing experience that appeals to me and we're not in a hurry ever. We will motor sail when speed drops below 4 knots. But if no wind is forecast we'll hang on the mooring or anchor until we have wind or we have other plans ashore.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Surprisingly it’s not so much about the difficulties of sailing that has her bugged. Fortunately our boat is pretty easy to sail. My reluctance to switch is due to the feeling there’s something magical about being offshore with the rags up and only natural noises. Her frustration is in part due to the limitations sailing imposes. 
She still wants the range. She still wants the kick of going to new places. She likes the idea of 2200m or better. That gets us New England to windwards with a 10% reserve. The idea of having a better idea of how long it will take to get there and not worrying about reserve fuel appeals to her as does the additional creature comforts when not moving. Perhaps we made a mistake going with a boat with 6 1/2 draft but I sure like the lack of complexity to a fixed draft. But she is scared when we’re on skinny water. Something under 6’ or even 5’ makes the Bahamas wide open. 
I was surprised that the annual budget isn’t that different as long as you’re getting better than a one nautical mile per gallon. Even a twin engine Hatteras LRC does that at 8 knots. A sailboat has all the systems of a powerboat and than all the sailing related things. Plenty to fix and fool with. Just more on a cruising sailboat. Trawlers and sailboats are both slow displacement hulls.
Semi displacement and fast trawlers like a Bene are off the list. Agree with Mark. The new generation of very narrow and long trawlers are quite interesting as their fuel efficiency running a high fifty foot boat with a 75 to 100 hp diesel is quite remarkable. Transpacific let alone transatlantic range being the norm. 
We’ve been on Flemings and the N43, N50, N46 and N47. She liked them all. She liked the styling on the Fleming and Kadey Krogan whaleback. I like the Nordhavn. I didn’t like the engine room on the 46 as you are really bent over. Still price wise they give the best best bang for the buck. I’m a bit nervous about how much they roll and the complexity of stabilizing them. I’m also a bit nervous about how high the bow is on the Nordhavns and what this means to anchoring or picking up a mooring. 
RVs are a different world. For present we both want water. Airplanes work fairly good for tourist travel. HD still offers a great rental program for when you get there and want to buzz around. She talked about a micro trailer but that’s about it.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Did someone say Fleming? 










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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

when engine dies offshore... you're in deep do.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Oh should mention view age as the determinant as to when you give up cruising. Cruising rigs are replaced at ~8 years. Sails depend upon wear, chaff, lose of shape but again 5-10 years isn’t uncommon. Every year we’re replacing some of the running rigging. Been surprised how quickly things wear out between use and sun/salt exposure. At 5 years virtually none of the original running rigging remains. Nor those little dinky springs in the winches which I keep losing. Amazing how much they get for sailcote and the other sailing specific stuff. 
She still wants to cruise so expect replacement program to remain.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

B where is that? Was it the ICW? How do you feel about the smaller Flemings?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SanderO said:


> when engine dies offshore... you're in deep do.


Ummmmmmm No. You just turn on the other engine. Offshore motor boats either have 2 or a wing engine.

Apart from that, most fishing trawlers are single engine, no wing. How many of those do you hear conking out?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

S most ships have one engine. Failures on ocean going blue water recreational boats are surprisingly rare. The boats under discussion either have get home engines or are twins so this isn’t much of an issue from what I’m told.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

The living, relaxation, and storage spaces on trawlers are, in general, far superior to those on a comparably sized sailboat. This "dark side" talk is stupid. Buy the boat that best fits your needs. For the Bahamas, a trawler makes way more sense than a sailboat for many people.

The big limitation with trawlers, and why I think they are in the minority to sailboats in the Bahamas/Caribbean, is the lack of reasonably priced trawlers in the $100-$200k range. For $100-$200k, you can buy a very nice cruising sailboat to take you around the world. Of course you can spend more on a higher end boat, but there are tons of very nice sailboats in this price range. I was just looking at a listing for a 2012 Beneteau Oceanis 40 for $169k. There are virtually no trawlers of a similar size, age and with offshore ability in this price range. I've long thought that some builders are missing out on a big market segment of potential trawler purchasers, because it's got to be possible to build trawlers in the 36-40' range at a cost similar to production sailboats of the same size.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

[LEFT said:


> [/LEFT]SanderO;2051575790]when engine dies offshore... you're in deep do.


Twin engines or a kicker.

Many large cruising sailboats I see are totally reliant on their engines close to shore any way. Add in obligatory AP, Watermaker and power winches and windlasses, many bare a close resemblance to powerboats already.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

We have all that stuff now on a mid size cruiser. Still if all of it fails we’d make out okay. I’ve turned off the power winches when I’ve not trusted crew. Can get by without the AP and rely on the hydrovane. with 200g of water no wm just means going into shore more often. No genset means more energy budgeting (no TV, music, etc.) and total dependence on the wind and solar supplies.
Like to feel we’re still a sailboat though but see where you’re coming from Arch. Agree there’s greater convergence between cruisers on power or sail as regards systems. Expect that will continue.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Outbound,

Your rate of repair/replace seems sort of out of line to me. Or perhaps I’m just out of line. 

I replaced allnstanding rigging on our 33 at 30 years. The rigging on our 1985 44’ was replaced in 2006, that’s 21 years. I had a professional rig survey done after I replaced the bow sprit in 2015, 9 years, and they said it was good to go, no recommended replacement. 

Now part of that might be the rig the 44 has 12 stays plus runners, the 33 has 11 stays with permanent runners. If I loose a wire I should not loose the rig. More modern boats not so much. 

Or maybe you are doing a lot more actual sailing than us.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I would say to thank your lucky stars that you have a woman that embraces the cruising lifestyle regardless of which way that you do it.
There is no "Dark Side" there's only the " Other Side"
If I could sell it all and go to the other side one of the Nordhavens would most likely fit the bill. Of course there's always a dedicated motor sailor as a compromise to consider. You could probably spend the next 2 years just shopping. The really fun part!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Hybrid propulsion would be an interesting option. Not sure if there are any models that would be a good fit. Here is an article:
https://www.passagemaker.com/technical/changing-world-hybrid


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

outbound said:


> B where is that? Was it the ICW? How do you feel about the smaller Flemings?


Stuart FL. Burr Yacht Sales. Fleming Dealer for Southeast. I love the lines. Traditional, not ostentatious. 
They power them with Mans or MTUs in the larger models and I think Cummins in the smallest one. Love to see Cat power considered. Construction is superb. Never been offshore on one but a friend owned one and they spoke highly of it's seakeeping ability. They were former sailors who went Dark Side.

They eventually sold it because every time they invited their kids they would bring friends and the wife ended up cooking for ten people or more. She got tired of that real quick. They got a small single screw trawler and stick to the coast nowadays. And no guest cabins. Lol!

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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

SanderO said:


> These are not alternative to the "sailing experience". All boats float... but that's where the similarity ends. One could argue that you can cruise a trawler and so it easier on the skipper. Hardly. And RV is not analogous except that people cruise the country on roads.
> 
> When owning sailing vessel no longer works for you, turn in your deck shoes.... or crew on OPBs.


I fail to understand why you felt the need to write this in counter to my post.

But to address it, to lots of people the end of sailing is NOT the end to boating or traveling!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Looked at hybrids. The diesel electric is quite viable. But to allow a 2200nm range you’re looking at new construction. Unfortunately current offerings or a new one off make it way out of budget. On a budgetary basis the current crop of ultra narrow pure diesel power cruisers make better sense on first look. Much less complexity cheaper to run even if fuel costs increase. The pitfalls of a narrow hull seem mostly solved with the advances in gyro stabilization, magnus effect stabilization or the refined fins on conventional stabilizers. Those technologies have come a long way.
The comment about vessel cost has support in my preliminary looking around. At projected budget new is probably off the board. Used doesn’t allow these new technologies except as add ons which doesn’t make sense except for nav, solar and like upgrades. Research to date suggests ~$300k range if we go real old and unfortunately $5-600k range for newer. Otherwise will have to give up snow birding to eastern Caribbean. Expect the usual hit when current boat sells so there are definite budgetary limitations which put us below the range for the “ideal” boat. 
Most of the boats mentioned above list in the $5-700k range for recent models which is really pushing it for us and will make us boat poor so again not probably not doable. . 
The big break in power boat prices seems much the same as in sailboat prices. Once you go to a fairly recent quality long term live aboard ocean boat the prices skyrocket. The market is small enough and initial costs high enough that people will wait to get close to their ask.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

outbound said:


> The big break in power boat prices seems much the same as in sailboat prices. Once you go to a fairly recent quality long term live aboard ocean boat the prices skyrocket. The market is small enough and initial costs high enough that people will wait to get close to their ask.


I suspect at that some price points the owners don't feel any real urgency to sell and just want their price.

I knew of a guy who was loosing a million a month due to purchasing a bad investment. Rather than getting rid of it and taking the loss and facing the loss of face at the golf club, he hung onto it for quite a while until he was able to sell it for a sale price profit. People knew what he bought and sold it for but didn't know about his monthly losses.

For some people, money has a different meaning.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Interesting but it doesn’t for me. Don’t have that kind of wealth. View money as a tool not for just having it in the abstract. No longer working and still would like to leave kids/grandkids something so need to make reasonable decisions.
Curious anyone here has done passages on powerboats. Was it uncomfortable due to motion? Boring as all get out? Tiring due to mechanical noises? Or pleasantly relaxing? 
My experience has been day or few day trips on various different types of trawlers with a few coastal fairly decent one wayhop deliveries many years ago. The deliveries were on Grand Banks which aren’t under consideration. Nice boats but don’t have the range and I view them as somewhat lighter than wanted semi displacement. Same reason the various production tugs aren’t being considered. They are as cute as can be though.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Many, slightly bigger, but not by much. Working boats, but they are the designs that have inspired the recreational trawlers, tugs and power cats. 

Power boats are awesome. The humb of the machinery luls you to sleep at night. You dont need to be bored on watch because they take care of themselves. You are indoors. Set up a little table and play solitaire or listen to an audiobook in climate controlled comfort. No heeling, bright salons. Fast passages, no need to chase the weather, follow the rhumb line.

Personally sail mostly for the sport, power boats are a great way to get around. Not sure I would want one for transoceanic, but I cant think of any small recreational boat I would want for transoceanic.

Funny, since you started this thread, I think I have talked my wife into a houseboat. Which wasnt hard. Spending a month at a time on a 21 ft sharpie with 2 kids is enough to make any one want a houseboat.

We have been looking at designs. We dont need long distance passagemakers as that isnt our boating style. Looking at little canal boat style boats.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hypeer never responded. Like to think we do an average amount of sailing for a boat with our program. Seems so from talking to others. Perhaps we’re a bit on the low end. Seems like an average amount of repairs and replacements as well. Don’t know if it’s true but told average snow birding cruiser will do between 10 and15k under sail (not counting motor time). Average active sailboat owner <3k. Also higher winds means more wear as well.
See UV or chafe it gets replaced. Rig failure can be catastrophic so on fairly typical schedule. 
Be helpful if others would share their experience. Might be way off but don’t think so. It’s just about 4K going back and forth. Probably have sails up for 48 h every 2 sometimes 3 days then agree there are weeks you don’t move. Have no good personal estimate of actual time they are up. Sorry can’t be more specific than that.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

As dangerous is it is to admit it here, we have both power and sail. The power is a 28 foot down east design, really a working lobster boat refitted for sports fishing and day cruising.

Out, don't think this would work for you, because you're targeting big range, but I'll admit it, I am in love with traditional down east boats. They have keels, yes one engine, and if you don't buy one of the "pretend" ones, they are truly built for commercial use. This of course means that the custom finish is up to you, and can add up, but I gotta say that 18 knots at single digit gallons/hour is pretty nice when you are trying to get someplace. And if you really want to sip fuel, slow it down to displacement speed and you got your trawler, and an enclosed pilot house, without a lot of structure above it makes for a dry, comfortable and warm ride in weather. Many of the trawlers I've been on like to roll unless you fly birds or have active stabilizer.

The Maine builders are all interesting characters. Lots of people buy only bare hulls and tops from these guys and have others do the "yacht" finish. 

If I was thinking Bahama's and intercostal with occasional hops, yea, I'd strongly consider a down east design yachted up to whatever finish level you'd like. If we're talking down island, then I wouldn't, you'll need range up the yadzooo....Nordhaven or one of the others already discussed. 

But I thought I'd throw the DE in the mix. Good luck. Keep getting out there my friend!


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

For us, were we to move from sail to power, we would probably downsize considerably. I seriously doubt we'd be interested in anything over 42', as any powerboat has it all over any sailboat for space. Maybe 3 to 4.5 times the internal living and storage space as the equivalent sailing vessel.
Honestly, I doubt that your maintenance will change much, it will just shift to another area. Obviously, no sails, but you might have a rig to deal with, especially if you use it for the tender or stabilization.
I can pretty much guarantee you that if the cook gets a bigger galley, that cook will want a few more, maybe make that lots more, appliances. They sure do relieve the cook of a lot of the chore of cooking, especially if the cook's partner does the dishes!
Then there's that grand aft stateroom one can have on a powerboat 36' and over. A real, centerline (no climbing *on* the bed while making it) BED. Storage up the wazoo!!! By all means, let us not forget that $3000.00 helm chair (they make one of those household recliners seem like a Fir plank) in which you snuggle, with an amazing view of the waterworld around you and your coffee close at hand. CSNY or Sweet Baby James playing softly(?) in the background with your honey beside you, warm (cool), dry and going in exactly the right direction for a change.
All joking aside, the *big* pull for the power vessel for us is the ability to go where only the insane go with an open cockpit! Hudson's Bay, Greenland, Iceland, the Northwest Passage to Alaska. Some places that would have been impossible to go, only a few years back.
What you probably won't find up in those forbidding, but exciting sounding places is a Tiki Bar with the perfect rum punch, crowded anchorages or bareboats. And of course, there won't be any bikinis to amuse one. And..... uh, just a minute, no bikinis? 
Perhaps this might take a bit more thought. Top up my Mt. Gay please bartender?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Too funny capta but some real truth there. This fall was cold and wet. Even the brief section of the ICW to get by the Capes was truly miserable. Needing to hand steer at times the hard dodger was no help. Don’t like full enclosures and was scared just queeking under the fixed bridges. Not fun at all. 
CC I had a small center console along with a sailboat for years. If you had an hour or two get some fishing in. A day or more go sailing. Never understood the ragbagger/stinkpotter thing. Wife lived summers on a Novi hull her dad fixed up. I got to see it. Very livable but not something under consideration due to range.
Capta been told paravanes aren’t anywhere the hassle of a sailboat rig. But agree maintenance is maintenance.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

And then there's the ever present engine noise. Now our diesel is not very quiet and we hate the sound and it makes trying to sleep a major bummer.

But when we sail we usually have a pleasant motion and no sound. AP is very quiet... so off watch can get decent rest. We both hate the engine noise.. and that applies to OBs and generators and motorcycles. Quiet and nature's natural sound are a big part of the appeal of sailing for us.

Trawlers and the like may be quieter... but hearing is believing.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

For the bahamas it would be hard to beat one of the motor cats.
Same as sail but no sti k and sail gear to deal with.
Shallow, lots of room for toys.
They are condo.....see a lot of them.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> Capta been told paravanes aren't anywhere the hassle of a sailboat rig. But agree maintenance is maintenance.


Do you remember that big metal triangle that smashed out the bridge windows on the Andrea Gail in the flick The Perfect Storm? That's what we used to use as stabilizers (paravanes) when I was fishing on the left coast. Perhaps they would be proportionately smaller and lighter on a smaller boat, but they still require a pretty good rig to hold them up. Additionally, just like mechanical stabilizers, they cost you about a knot of speed, so a bit more diesel, when being used.
Still, one doesn't purchase a powerboat without considering the cost of all that added comfort.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

All true. That’s why folk are going with zero velocity stabilization. The gyros have nothing outside the hull to snag and no decrease in speed, no seals to maintain, although they take 45 minutes to spin up use less energy than active fins or magnus effect rods. The down side is in really heavy weather the precession is so strong it can wreck the boat. 
Again looking at used boats not new due to cost. If I had the wherewithal to go new would have magnus for heavy weather and when energy budget wasn’t a concern and gyro for day to day.
In used Naiid or equivalent seems to be the soup de jour.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

All true. That’s why folk are going with zero velocity stabilization. The gyros have nothing outside the hull to snag and no decrease in speed, no seals to maintain, although they take 45 minutes to spin up use less energy than active fins or magnus effect rods. The down side is in really heavy weather the precession is so strong it can wreck the boat. 
Again looking at used boats not new due to cost. If I had the wherewithal to go new would have magnus for heavy weather and when energy budget wasn’t a concern and gyro for day to day.
In used Naiid or equivalent seems to be the soup de jour.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

All true. That’s why folk are going with zero velocity stabilization. The gyros have nothing outside the hull to snag and no decrease in speed, no seals to maintain, although they take 45 minutes to spin up use less energy than active fins or magnus effect rods. The down side is in really heavy weather the precession is so strong it can wreck the boat. 
Again looking at used boats not new due to cost. If I had the wherewithal to go new would have magnus for heavy weather and when energy budget wasn’t a concern and gyro for day to day.
In used Naiid or equivalent seems to be the soup de jour.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

All true. That’s why folk are going with zero velocity stabilization. The gyros have nothing outside the hull to snag and no decrease in speed, no seals to maintain, although they take 45 minutes to spin up use less energy than active fins or magnus effect rods. The down side is in really heavy weather the precession is so strong it can wreck the boat. 
Again looking at used boats not new due to cost. If I had the wherewithal to go new would have magnus for heavy weather and when energy budget wasn’t a concern and gyro for day to day.
In used Naiid or equivalent seems to be the soup de jour.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

All true. That’s why folk are going with zero velocity stabilization. The gyros have nothing outside the hull to snag and no decrease in speed, no seals to maintain, although they take 45 minutes to spin up use less energy than active fins or magnus effect rods. The down side is in really heavy weather the precession is so strong it can wreck the boat. 
Again looking at used boats not new due to cost. If I had the wherewithal to go new would have magnus for heavy weather and when energy budget wasn’t a concern and gyro for day to day.
In used Naiid or equivalent seems to be the soup de jour.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While I enjoy the sibling rivalry of sailboats and stinkpots, I actually hope to live long enough to make this transition one day. The alternative sounds worse.

I grew up in a family with both and it's great amusement for us to pick on each other. It's not serious.

I chose the sailing route, not for some romantic purpose and certainly not because it's less expensive. I'm about to drop more on a new set of sails than most stinkpots paid for fuel over years. I do hate engine noise, but in conditions we like to sail in (say 15 kts of wind or more), it's bleeping loud on the boat too.

I chose sailing, because I find it mind numbing to sit in a cockpit for hours with nothing more to do than tend the helm and throttle. I like the activity of sailing. I know we do so in our sailboat more often than we admit, however, I am constantly looking for conditions I can get back to sailing. Stinkpots are doomed to one mode.

All that said, when I'm no longer in good enough physical condition for the activity, I'd like not to leave the rest of the on water experience I enjoy so much. Here's to living long enough to be in a trawler.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Outbound,

Sorry, i don’t see a post returned to me. And besides in the middle of a project, I’m either watching paint dry or working my butt off. 

But anyway


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

outbound said:


> Hypeer never responded. Like to think we do an average amount of sailing for a boat with our program. Seems so from talking to others. Perhaps we're a bit on the low end. Seems like an average amount of repairs and replacements as well. Don't know if it's true but told average snow birding cruiser will do between 10 and15k under sail (not counting motor time). Average active sailboat owner <3k. Also higher winds means more wear as well.
> See UV or chafe it gets replaced. Rig failure can be catastrophic so on fairly typical schedule.
> Be helpful if others would share their experience. Might be way off but don't think so. It's just about 4K going back and forth. Probably have sails up for 48 h every 2 sometimes 3 days then agree there are weeks you don't move. Have no good personal estimate of actual time they are up. Sorry can't be more specific than that.


Sorry, I didn't see a post addressed to me. And besides I in the middle of a project, either watching paint dry or working like mad.

When you use "k" above what units? NM, kilometers, hours per year/season/between refits?

I still consider myself a novice sailor though I have 12-15,000 miles. 52N to 17N. Too much has been motor sailing either because we are in confined waters (the ditch or Erie Canal) or because we are beating/calm (Newfoundland to DE or the Thorny Path).

I'm new to the Eastern Caribbean having arrive last year and am really enjoying being able to sail. Or will again once I get these projects done.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

A 62 foot Nordhavn has published their budget.

They are world travelers doing far more than NYC to Bahamas each year...
Look at their fuel budget and its not excessive for the number of miles theyre doing.

Convert this to a 40 foot motor boat and you might have something affordable.

A lot of costs are 'lifestyle' stuff. they could be axed.

Its in Australian dollars so x .75 for USD










Nordhavn 62 Owner James Ellingford Completes First Leg of Circumnavigation with His Family, Writes New Book, and Details the Real Costs of Cruising

Its a good read.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

That's living nice!!

I looked at my records and the past 2 years I've spend 3.5% (about $1500) of my spend on fuel.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have only passed through the Bahamas. Go further east. Our KVH bill is $53/m except for 2 months a year when it’s $125. We do all our detailing and some of the diving. With the GMT service we’ve knocked down our flights to under $4k per year. We buy 420g of diesel per year. Still have a relatively new boat so some of his line items which seem to be replacements don’t yet exist.But we did put in a Northern Lights this year and a Hydrovane last year. All in all we’re running somewhat less then 1/2 his average costs. More like a third. Surprisingly our insurance costs are comparable this year but that may reflect our staying in the zone this coming summer.
I’m not looking at the 40. Don’t like the A/B ratio and thinking of used not new this time. Even the 43 looks top heavy. Do like the Krogan Northsea and N47. Fuel efficiency numbers are better for both c/w the 62. Also find if you’re below 50 dockage and dry storage opens up,is cheaper and you don’t have the National Park restrictions.
But your point is very well taken power cruising is possible at roughly the same costs. Even Robert Beebe was aware of this decades ago. As fuel prices have risen so has efficiency and better design/engineering.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

When I said <1/3 that’s not including his last year refit. My diesel included weeks with company who wanted AC(we rarely run it) and lots of water usage for showers which meant genset hours for the RO. When just me and the bride those things don’t exist. Think the frequent company phase is hopefully over. This year had much more diesel use for propulsion due to ICW and crew level. Used 223g getting south.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> Curious anyone here has done passages on powerboats. Was it uncomfortable due to motion? Boring as all get out? Tiring due to mechanical noises? Or pleasantly relaxing?


We took a Nordhavn 47 from Florida to Bermuda for the America Cup, then from Bermuda to Nova Scotia.

The good points. VMG is excellent. When the weather is crappy, it is great to be in a climate-controlled pilot house. Lots of comfortable space. In moderate conditions, the Niaad stabilizers work well and the boat is reasonably stable (similar to a catamaran). The engine noise is a non-issue. The engine room is well-insulated and deep in the basement. There is a low background hum, with very little vibration - less noise than a sailboat sailing in light winds. It is also a constant noise, which the brain quickly ignores. Passagemaking is probably more relaxing than in a sailboat because there is less to "do", and it is done in comfort. Mostly, just sitting in a big lazyboy at the helm occasionally monitoring systems, or lying on a couch immediately aft of the helm doing the same. I could get used to that.

The not so good points. In rough conditions, the stabilizers don't work well. They work, but the boat gets very active, and the fuel economy drops off the cliff. The motion becomes uncomfortable - more so than most sailboats. The stabilizers don't work at all, of course, at anchor, and trawlers will roll your brains out in an otherwise unnoticeable 6" of swell. This, IMO, is the absolute worse point about trawlers, and one that seems to be glossed over by those that own them. There are ways to mitigate it, but they are complicated, noisy, and only work somewhat. There were times in what I consider calm anchorages where drawers were falling out from rolling.

The neither good, nor bad, but just different points:

VMG is better than any sailboat, but VMC is exactly the same, every day, every direction. As a sailor, I was delighted to be doing 7kts directly into a 20kt wind, but disappointed to be doing 7kts on a 20kt beam reach. Three months on the boat, and I still couldn't shake the disturbing (to me) gut feeling of doing the same speed all the time in all weather and in all directions. Intellectually, however, it makes perfect sense and is probably preferable.

Pretty much all of the helming and passagemaking is done inside with relatively poor ventilation, so the AC/heat is running most of the time. Perfect in bad weather, but disappointing in beautiful weather. There is a feeling of disconnect in taking a watch, and one relies on the fantastic 6' 8kW open array radar more than visual at night. However, this is pretty much the same for us on our sailboat (with only a puny 24" 4kW dome radar).

Passagemaking isn't boring, but it isn't exciting. I'm great with this, and try to make all of our passages similar regardless of the craft. My opinion is that those who always go on about the joy of sailing, and need to feel that control, and the pleasure of wind and spray and grinding winches, and "continually dialing it in", etc are not doing much passagemaking. Or are complete masochists.

Because one is doing watches in comfortable chairs, in climate controlled surroundings, with full pantry, refrigerator, and cooking facilities within easy reach, I found it was much less tiring than on almost all sailboats. However, there were 4 of us, instead of our normal 2, so watches were spread out more and off-watches had more opportunity for full sleep. But even with 2, I could see that passages would be more restful than on a sailboat.

Maneuvering the boat for things like docking, anchoring, and mooring can be more difficult. Anchoring isn't really any different, although one is doing it from 15' in the air. Without bow and stern thrusters, docking could be interesting. The main issue with docking is that there is almost no way a single person could do it. First, the person at the helm really can't see what is going on down on deck. Second, one whole side of the boat wasn't accessible (on the N46) because of design, so docking could only be done on one side of the boat. The boat we were on had bow and stern thrusters, so combined with VOX headsets and practiced coordination, docking was always easy. Without those, it is a crap-shoot that could go terribly wrong. Mooring is the big negative. Really no way to snatch one off the bow, so it requires fancy maneuvering to pick up off the stern and transfer to bow. Frankly, I don't think trawlers moor as much as sailboats for reasons having nothing to do with how difficult it is.

For those worried about the main engine going out, be aware that these large, slow diesels are more reliable than a set of sails PLUS a toy diesel on a sailboat. It just isn't a worry. We actually had an engine issue on passage when the alternator seized and started smoking (the alternator was 650F 20 minutes after shutting it down!). This was a single-engine boat, so we turned on the little Yanmar kicker and proceeded at 3kts until we got the alternator off and the replacement on. Since there were a pair of asbestos gloves on board, we were able to remove the alternator while it was still red-hot, so the whole replacement episode lasted only 20 minutes. Also helping was the fact that the engine room was a full-standing walkaround with the engine at chest height, and large craftsman tool chests surrounding it. Working on the engine is a breeze.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I like this thread!

Out wrote in the OP:

"She’s tired of working the boat in freezing cold spray, chasing the wear and tear on the rig, lines and sails."

I would like to you to list or articulate what it is about sailing which leads to you thinking about a trawler or similar.

Cost may be more or less (doubt the later). Wear and tear on the sailing gear though real... is not a short term expense but one in decades. I am on my 3 set of sails in 34 years and added a cruising chute and some storm canvas. No expensive rigging work... added a removable inner stay. Sure I did tens of thousands of upgrades and add on to make the boat comfy and offshore cruise ready. Boats normally are not available new tricked out to set off on a 5,000 mile journey unless you have the factory trick out the boat prior to launch.

If you are a cruising couple... I don't see how a 50-60' sailboat wouldn't have the creature comforts and plenty of room to please the wife. 

There are the issues of the feel of sailing in a breeze or a storm... as opposed to a trawler... the noise and so on. Unless the wind is howling and waves are crashing on the deck... the sound of the wind is no different on any boat for the same wind force. Sailboats tend to not pound in larger seas. I wonder about a trawler in the same conditions.

Cruising your be anchoring out not spending time in slips I assume... especially because there aren't all that many marinas out there with transient slips (guess) in the vast majority of tasty destinations.

It is probably easier to operate a larger motor yacht than a larger sailing one. But these days there are so many power assist features sailing is almost a press the button thing... if you want. Even on my 36' I don't do much but press buttons and turn dials.. the winches can be "motorized" with Millie and her winch bit. I presume many world cruiser might have furling mains which are button press reefed.

Heeling is a difference. A monohull cruising boat properly trimmed (and designed) should never heel more than 15° or so which is not really uncomfortable to do anything on board. And if you are not on a sched and can select your weather... wait for wind behind the beam which are flatter and more comfortable (and quieter too) points of sail.

Maybe a larger sailboat and use professionals more often for maintenance... Maybe bring on a young strong personable crew or two for passages.

This might be less expensive and more enjoyable than a motor yacht to do the oceans on. 

I predict that you will go big sail not big power.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> ... the sound of the wind is no different on any boat for the same wind force. Sailboats tend to not pound in larger seas. I wonder about a trawler in the same conditions.


This (sound) is not true for several reasons. First a trawler has little rigging, which is what really makes the noise on a sailboat. Second, you will be experiencing the wind on a trawler from inside an insulated pilot house/bridgedeck.

As for pounding, a trawler design will pound less than any sailboat design other than a deep full keel one. Also, the trawler will be much heavier than a sailboat, and more difficult to lift and pound.



SanderO said:


> Cruising your be anchoring out not spending time in slips I assume... especially because there aren't all that many marinas out there with transient slips (guess) in the vast majority of tasty destinations.


This is one point I forgot to make in my previous post. We purposefully anchored out the majority of the time on the trawler, but it wasn't easy. Power management is difficult, as these boats are designed to be plugged into shore power, or operate with a continuously running genset. They are using household refrigerators, electric stoves and ovens, power-hungry DC systems, etc. You don't see many trawlers anchored out without their gensets running full-time. Underway, most systems are kept going by the very large alternators operating off the engines.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> This (sound) is not true for several reasons. First a trawler has little rigging, which is what really makes the noise on a sailboat. Second, you will be experiencing the wind on a trawler from inside an insulated pilot house/bridgedeck.
> 
> Mark


Being inside would attenuate any outside sounds. I would think that for many reasons it would be at times preferable to be out in the air...

Sure the rigging does generate sound... but my experience in most conditions less than 15 apparent I don't heat much in the way of wind sounds. I do hear wind at anchor... again above a certain speed.

Trawlers are 110v beasts and so solar to support efficient 12v systems ain't happenin'... Yes they need shore power hook up, expensive slips and noisy expensive gensets. It seems that sailors use gen sets too when their boats and needs reach a certain size.

I have no experience in / with trawlers.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SanderO said:


> . I would think that for many reasons it would be at times preferable to be out in the air...


Most have flybridges.



SanderO said:


> I have no experience in / with trawlers.


I gathered that 

Even Mark shows his limited experience with trawlers or bigger boats... He says things like "if you didnt have *that* it would be difficult". But they do have 'that', they have bow and stern thrusters; docking bridges at the stern; StAR = Stabalisation at Rest or Flopper Stoppers; the owner knows you need to run the generator 24/7; the lack of side walk-around on some Trawlers its always an option, you can buy the one with walk-arounds on both sides - you lose the space in the saloon.

So yes, theres differences and if someone is an utter wombat-brain and don't research what they are buying they will be surprised... like buying a motorcycle and then complaining theres no trunk for suitcases.

But you and he neglect the *Important* things! Is there a swimming pool?????????????????????

Oh, and whats the trade-in on a Bene 393?

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Most have flybridges.
> 
> I gathered that
> 
> Mark


and my experience of 33 years sailing is 99.5% on my boat.... and what I observe out there.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

A single screw trawler shouldnt be any harder to maneuver around dock than a similar sized sailboat. In fact, I bet most trawler types would argue that sailboats are harder. You just need to get used to their characteristics.

The power to weight ratio alone should be enough to fix most problems. They tend to slide more due to the absence of a deep keel, but that isnt a bad thing. You use that slide (advance) to your advantage once you are used to it. Add a bow thruster, its even easier. Stern thrusters I have mixed feelings about. You already have a prop and a rudder to control your stern. 

Same thing with tieing them up, you just get used to it. No problem single handed. Wear the remote control around your neckk. You can drive the boat while line handling. Use a spring, leave them in gear on the spring while you get everything else on, just ghe same as a sailboat.

Skippered a 60 foot aluminum research trawler. It was a new boat, lots of tech toys. Working crew of 3 including the skipper. There were times when working underway where I would maneuvre the boat with the remote control with one hand and operate the crane with the other hand so the guys could work. Easy easy easy.

On the small trawler/houseboat front, I emailed a couple of designers of small wood trawlers yesterday and was pleasantly surprised to have detailed responses by lunch today. We have been wanting a small canal trawler for some time, this thread just reminded me to get off my butt and send some emails.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

C= current generation of all types of stabilizing make a big deal of zero velocity stabilization. Is that true? Does it really work? See how a gyro would but not active fins. 
See boats with just bow but not stern thrusters. Is that a boat to walk away from?
See floppier stoppers or paravanes combined with gyros or Naiids. Is that enough at anchor? At what point does the gyro go off and you depend of fins or paravanes alone? 10’? 20’? When? 

In our current program mostly anchor but do moor. One concern is how high the bow is on the Nordhavns. Is a Krogan easier to deal with or is bow height not the real issue?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

S- we have central heat, central air, a great audiovisual entertainment system, a watermaker, genset, plenty of tankage, all power winches, everything brought aft, hard dodger, hard Bimini, solar and wind generators. We don’t lack for creature comforts in any regard. The sailing is very easy. Even in a seaway. Regardless of size you never have enough storage but have more than enough.
The possible switch isn’t due to issues of comfort nor difficulty running the boat. With a flybridge would still get to see the glories of a night sky. It is about not knowing a days work/vmg. Not being on the foredeck in the snot. Enjoying colder climes. Not dealing with freezing rain or spray. Not having to deal with air or water draft to the degree we do now. C’s post was great. It delineates the downsides of a trawler life realistically for me. 
My boat handling skills suck. Haven’t hit anything yet but that aspect of cruising is what’s most stressful for me. A’s post was most reassuring. 
We use voice activated headphones now. Got turned on to them by friends on a cat. Use hand signals as well which are sufficient for anchoring. And we’ve gotten to the point my wife and I can predict what the other wants before they want it most of the time.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Colemj forgot to ask. Did the 47 have a steady sail? Thought that headed you into the wind and because of that most times into the waves decreased rolling at anchor. 
How do you like the 47? It’s on our short list along with the 43. I don’t like the 46 as much as it seems engine access isn’t as good. 
Currently on 46’ with a 75hp yanmar. Am I right servicing a drystack110hp naturally aspirated Luger may in fact be easier?
Several people have told me krogans roll more than similarly sized Nordhavns. Anybody know if there’s any truth to that?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

outbound said:


> See boats with just bow but not stern thrusters. Is that a boat to walk away from?


Wouldn't be for me.

Bow thrusters on this size are inneffective above 2-3 knots of boat speed due to their inability to penetrate the boundary layer.

Stern thrusters are effective in a fewer range of conditions. Light winds only. When you back on the main engine, the stern thruster eats garbuerated water. It is ineffective. You cant use a stern thruster in conjunction with hard reverse, nor can you you use it coming in to a dock hot.

Stern thrusters on small boats are generally only effective in light to no air and low boat speeds.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

We currently use our side power with effect in winds up to 20kts. After that it’s completely overwhelmed. Was thinking with less shaft angle there be less prop walk and a stern thruster be helpful. Not true?
Been told “slow is pro” usually under the speeds mentioned.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Out why are you on / at the bow in snotty conditions? Are you referring to anchoring/mooring/docking or sailing? Is it for lookout? I find that I am only at the bow for anchoring and returning to our own mooring. I do go to the fore deck to set the the cruising chute but use it only a pretty decent weather. I also have windlass controls in the cockpit but have to go forward to set the snubber. Our cockpit is not as protected and so it's not pleasant in bad weather. But I suppose there is a trade off in visibility and protection. Wife never goes forward to do anything but pick up our mooring in fair weather or haul down the main which flakes itself.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> C= current generation of all types of stabilizing make a big deal of zero velocity stabilization. Is that true? Does it really work? See how a gyro would but not active fins.
> See boats with just bow but not stern thrusters. Is that a boat to walk away from?
> See floppier stoppers or paravanes combined with gyros or Naiids. Is that enough at anchor? At what point does the gyro go off and you depend of fins or paravanes alone? 10'? 20'? When?
> 
> In our current program mostly anchor but do moor. One concern is how high the bow is on the Nordhavns. Is a Krogan easier to deal with or is bow height not the real issue?





outbound said:


> Colemj forgot to ask. Did the 47 have a steady sail? Thought that headed you into the wind and because of that most times into the waves decreased rolling at anchor.
> How do you like the 47? It's on our short list along with the 43. I don't like the 46 as much as it seems engine access isn't as good.
> Currently on 46' with a 75hp yanmar. Am I right servicing a drystack110hp naturally aspirated Luger may in fact be easier?
> Several people have told me krogans roll more than similarly sized Nordhavns. Anybody know if there's any truth to that?


Active fins seemed to work fine on the 47 we were on, but they have their limitations, and do not work at anchor, of course. The limitations are that they cannot keep up in really rough conditions, and they degrade fuel economy and speed when asked to be very active. They work well in moderate long period rolling, but less well in short heavy stuff.

A gyro would work at anchor, and probably works well in rough conditions, but takes up a lot of space, so installation seems like it would be boat-dependent.

The boat we were on had flopper stoppers for anchor, but they are cumbersome to deploy/take in and noisy. They did help, though. Since we were moving and anchoring every day, we quickly found them too complicated to deploy on that schedule.

How Arcb describes using thrusters is not how we used them. They were used when the boat was basically standing still to position the boat attitude properly so that it could resume forward/reverse into slip or dock. In areas of current, they were invaluable. Wind doesn't affect this type of boat as much as I thought it would due to the large inertia of its weight. We were traveling with another Nordhavn who only had a bow thruster, and they had significantly more issues docking in many areas than we had. This is even worse when the boat needs to move in the direction that prop wash works against. After many years, that boat finally installed a stern thruster this year.

Bow height is not a problem with anchoring - no different than any other boat except scope calculation needs to take the longer height into account. The boat did swing at anchor a lot with the windage. However, the owner installed a bow eye down near the waterline and attaches his snubber there now. He reports the boat stays very steady now.

The boat did not have a riding sail, and I doubt it would have helped much. The rolling wasn't from not being pointed into the wind - it was from almost unnoticeable waves bending in from other directions. I would stand on deck of the rolling boat and not even be able to see what was making it roll - that small of swell can set it off like a metronome. It is a resonance thing, and once it starts, there is a lot of momentum to keep it going.

I liked the N47 as well as trawlers go - but in general, they are not my cup of tea at all. If we went power, it would almost certainly be a catamaran.

Working on the engine is a dream. It is almost like a diesel mechanic classroom with the engine at waist/chest height and fully walk-around. With tool chests right next to it. Servicing is easy - electric pumps handle oil changes, the alternator and belt is at elbow height, etc. The one silly, but easily rectified thing, is that nobody ever ran an AC duct into the engine room, even though one of the AC ducting runs goes right along it. That would be the first thing I'd do. Then working on the engine would be so decadent that I'd be living down there petting it and cooing to it.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been on the foredeck on my boat and others all to often.
Once a day to just look around. Chafe, something getting loose. Over wraps on fullers, restraints on anchor, dinghy etc. Signs of wear. So many things you can pick up before they become a problem.
Then in the slop when what you missed on your walk about becomes a problem or something breaks.

Been considering cats as well. In my uneducated view seem to be either designed from the keels up to be long range ocean going beasts or fairly standard boats aimed primarily at the charter market sans the mast. The de novo purpose built boats are rare and mostly out of budget. The physics is compelling. Lower drag, less motion at anchor and underway, smaller hp demands, better AVS. If budget permitted would go with one of the long and lean aluminum monos now in production. Still get the less roll, extremely high mpg, along with self righting and light ice certification. Unfortunately budget has us more seriously looking at 50’ or below in a used boat.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> Been on the foredeck on my boat and others all to often.
> Once a day to just look around. Chafe, something getting loose. Over wraps on fullers, restraints on anchor, dinghy etc. Signs of wear. So many things you can pick up before they become a problem.
> Then in the slop when what you missed on your walk about becomes a problem or something breaks.
> .


Cruising I do get to the bow when setting and hauling the anchor. Of course I give a look at things.

On passage a trip forward is prudent to do a check and pick a decent conditions to make the inspection.

Maybe Shiva is not as complicated as your boat or maybe you have things breaking. I have had only one memorable discovery offshore. After being close hauled in breezey weather I decided to have a look at the lee shrouds. I discovered on or two of the strands of the 10mm rigging were parted... likely from working. Rigged a spare halyard to that side and had the shroud repaired in Bermuda.

Maybe I've been lucky... with things breaking from wear up there.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Really appreciate the input gentlemen. Please keep it coming.

Thinking it through has come to make me realize what I like about my boat and how a mind shift will be required. At present we have enough wind in the winter and sun in the summer to be self contained for energy. We only need to leave the boat for food or entertainment. Also the genset only goes on the rare occasions AC goes on or the batteries are down from water making or other activities. Our boat is a DC boat in the main. Biggest common AC draw is hairdryer and vacuum cleaner. The boat is quite. Even th D400s make little noise. 
This is quite different from running a genset continuously and having an AC boat. That would be another possible failure point. The genset goes down and you lose your stores and comfort. The splash of the genset means constant background noise. The boats we’re looking at all have >1000g of fuel so trips to the fuel dock probably would be at the same frequency but it’s another thing.
Roll bothers me. Current active fins reduce roll at rest. Old and new gyros or magnus effect does as well. Still, while moving it’s another system whose failure greatly imperiles you. Hear of Nordhavns turning back when their fins fail. In the boats we’re contemplating thinking of restricting them to those with paravanes and another system. Gyros are being put on boats as small as 30’. Reviewing specs size isn’t as much of an issue but placement is. Don’t see them on the small Nordhavn listings. Our usual deal is to get some place then stay put for awhile. A week or two isn’t unusual so rigging the flopperstoppers may be in our future. Seems that term,”flopperstopper”, has two meanings. One a device to prevent roll at anchor which has no effect underway. Two, paravanes which have a marginal effect at anchor needing to “fly” to really work. Have seen the at rest ones fairly frequently. Even on sailboats. Doesn’t seem a big deal to rig. Especially when it’s not uncommon to see only one out.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Yes, it’s rare things break. It’s good to prevent it. Still, have had to tighten the lashings on the anchor or dinghy, rig the storm jib to be ready to be used (have yet to deploy it in anger) get stuff or move stuff in the forepeak locker or like things. 
Think you should walk your entire deck at least daily and look things over both up and down. That’s what I was taught and think it makes sense.


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## JoeDunn (Oct 27, 2017)

I helped a friend move his Fleming 55 back and forth from Maryland to Rhode Island. A very comfortable boat with lots of creature comforts...If I had the money I'd consider the boat but I wouldn't want to pay the fuel bill. A lot of tinkering with electronics and engine checks. Definitely very relaxing and did not find the engine noise that loud or bothersome while underway. But I like all boats and just enjoy being on the water...


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

I was on a Fleming 55 yesterday. Lovely boats but the amount of systems and reliance on AC leads me to believe you want to budget some technicians periodically to keep up with all the scheduled maintenance. Doable by a couple for sure but if you can afford the boat you can afford budgeting the occasional cleaning and buffing crew as well as engine room upkeep. I personally would burn out on the frequent generator oil changes.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Do the routine fluid changes now. Kind of like doing it. Also gets you to look things over which is a good thing. Don’t mind washing the non slid and doing the stainless. We play music and chat while enjoying the sun. Then go for a dip, shower and drinks in the cockpit. It’s a low key nice day. One of the pleasures of cruising is those maintenance days. Leaves you with a sense of accomplishment a nd a pretty boat. Just don’t like rebuilding heads. I have trouble being waited on. Even if I was mega rich wouldn’t like help dressing or help doing other basic activities of daily living. Hell even like doing dishes. Just don’t tell my wife. Whenever the boat is hauled it gets a professional buff and wax. It’s hard to do from the dinghy. 
Talking with the wife. She’s thinking be wise to charter a Kadey-Krogen or Nordhavn for week or two. Any thoughts on who would be good to use in the New England area?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The Fleming’s are currently lower on the list for now. Although beautiful much lighter than the other boats and don’t seem as set up for long passages. For stationary living in some respects a better set up.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

I know the day will come when we have to consider a powerboat or a land based home again. Sitting on the St. Lucie River making our boat suitable for living aboard I have seen a few offshore power cats motor by that intrigue me but don't know enough about them or who even makes them. 

With the sailing catamaran explosion of recent years I think it is logical to assume that the selection of power cats suitable for long distance will expand offering a better selection. 

Chartering target boats is a great idea. Will be interesting to hear about your experience. I have a weird reaction whenever I get on a powerboat offshore. I fall asleep. 



Sent from my SM-T817T using Tapatalk


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> Do the routine fluid changes now. Kind of like doing it. Also gets you to look things over which is a good thing. Don't mind washing the non slid and doing the stainless. We play music and chat while enjoying the sun. Then go for a dip, shower and drinks in the cockpit. It's a low key nice day. One of the pleasures of cruising is those maintenance days. Leaves you with a sense of accomplishment a nd a pretty boat. Just don't like rebuilding heads. I have trouble being waited on. Even if I was mega rich wouldn't like help dressing or help doing other basic activities of daily living. Hell even like doing dishes. Just don't tell my wife. Whenever the boat is hauled it gets a professional buff and wax. It's hard to do from the dinghy.
> Talking with the wife. She's thinking be wise to charter a Kadey-Krogen or Nordhavn for week or two. Any thoughts on who would be good to use in the New England area?


I can't agree more with this post. Cruising sailors DO like to DO things and it gives them a sense of accomplishment. Usually there is no schedule to meet. Some things are better done by others these days...prep and painting the bottom and waxing or work that requires specialty tools and very esoteric knowledge as some diesel work might. General cleaning is only satisfying when the job is done and so having less to clean is better which is why a big house, yard, apartment of boat does not appeal to me. I think a boat's use of space is very clever. We only use our aft cabin to sleep in so it doesn't need to consume lots of real estate. The main salon with its galley and "nav" desk appendages is where we live and even that takes plenty to keep it clean and organized. Also in a seaway compact spaces with hand holds is mission critical otherwise your gorgeous voluminous salon is dangerous.

This decision if I were faced with it would be to find a sailboat that had the right amount of interior space and a large comfortable dry cockpit which is were you are when you sail and hang out to enjoy the weather. Fewer steps and levels to me is better... and climbing up onto the roof where there is another steering station and more view doesn't appeal to me as much. Less windage does and sailboats are best looking when they are sleek in my opinion and a completely different aesthetic from stinkpots.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

S we have that sailboat now. Please understand totally love my boat but we’re discussing the pluses and minuses of power for long range cruising. Trying to understand dual wired frig/freezers which allow the genset to be off at anchor. Types of stabilization. Rough costs. Quality of life. Things like that.

On search finding converted steel fishing trawlers, diesel ducks, and one offs. They are in budget. Anybody here have experience with steel? Power or sail.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Out, can you speak with people doing what you want to do who have these types of boats? I would think that would be the best resource. I don't think (guess) there are that many out there doing ocean passages and live aboard out there on these types of boats so your sample space will be quite small. I assumed these were basically used for coastal cruising and mostly lived in a slip.

But is the solution a response to a clearly defined problem or set of problems? My read was that your boat and any sailboat therefore is seen as an inadequate solution or contains problems. The fact that there are few of these motor yachts out there doing what you want to do must be related to something... cost to buy? cost to operate? other less tangible reasons?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> Roll bothers me. Current active fins reduce roll at rest. Old and new gyros or magnus effect does as well.


No, they don't. Fins and magnus effect systems only work with flow over them, so only work underway. Gyros are the only active roll management system that will work at rest.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Bleemus said:


> With the sailing catamaran explosion of recent years I think it is logical to assume that the selection of power cats suitable for long distance will expand offering a better selection.


Fuel capacity is an issue for long distance on power cats, and I doubt that will change. There are power cats capable of long-distance cruising (ocean crossing), but they are purpose-built, and give up much of the living space for tankage and hull design.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

S it’s an interesting post. Thank You. At the beginning of this thread outlined why the bride has got me thinking about this. 
I’m also on other sites. There are a number of pure trawler sites. Just like here there are coastal folks, live aboards, voyagers, charterers but they don’t talk about the transition from sail to power. 
It’s a surprisingly big community with a few moving from sail to power and (at least from appearances) more moving from coastal power to offshore power. Just like with sail due to job and family more are coastal or “loopers”. (There’s something called the great loop-Mississippi Great Lakes, st lawrence, east coast, gulf coast... or variations including e.g. Erie Canal, Hudson, Ohio, ICW etc).
I want 2200nm with a 10% reserve. Two person boat. From here I would appreciate input from folks who have experience in both formats or benefit of their thinking about a transition to the dark side. Some posts already have been extremely helpful in clarifying my thinking.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

C the advertising says the current generation of fins work at rest. Although paravanes don’t work as well as dedicated flopperstoppers have read they work at rest as well.I’m confused.
There are some pretty amazing powercats with sufficient range for my intended use. Unfortunately out of budget. Mark is right they’re designed specifically for that purpose.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I don't understand how active stabilizer find can work at rest. The physics are all wrong. These fins are foils that lift/pull down opposite sides of the boat in response to hearing. Without flow past them, they can't provide any lift. The same way your rudder or keel or sails are useless without flow over them. 

I don't have much experience with them, so I'd appreciate a link to ones that work at rest.

Mark


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Hpeer has a big steel sailboat


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

I took a job as first mate on a steel Jongert 67 to prep and sail to the South Pacific. Knowing Jongert reputation I thought it was a good decision. When I arrived in San Diego I was a bit shocked at the poor condition. The previous captain was very lazy, the boat was a rust bucket and I snapped the engine exhaust through hull off with my foot after spotting what looked to be a stain from a long term leak . Three weeks of patching fixes, nursed it across to Tahiti and got off as soon as I had a better offer on a much nicer boat in Indonesia. If you go steel make sure it was maintained properly. Aluminum or glass for me although I have one good aluminum story. 

Sent from my SM-T817T using Tapatalk


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

https://quantumstabilizers.com/


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

WESMAR DSP4800 Stabilizer System

And there are a bunch of other ones as well.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The ultra narrow and long motorboats I’ve been looking at are in aluminum. The Artnautica58 and the three sizes of Deep Water Yachts Korvet series. Unfortunately other the the Korvet14 all are out of budget for now. So I’d be real interested in your Al story.
I’ve also seen a few one offs in cold molded wood epoxy of interest. Prices reasonable as Americans have little interest once they see wood not understanding maintenance is the same as glass reenforced plastic and strength to weight is better.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

outbound said:


> https://quantumstabilizers.com/


Interesting technology. Took some time to read up on it. Kind of like a gyro stabilised bilge keel. They talk about lift, but who knows.

With regards to steel, aluminum and wood (cold molded), personally think of them as just construction materials. Work within each materials limits and I think everything should be fine if you buy a quality product.

Kind of like steel, but like wood too. Fibreglass is what it is. Aluminum can be a bit finicky in my experience, but should be fine in a new boat.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Interesting. The Westmar does not stabilize at anchor. The two Quantum stabilizers work at anchor by continuously swinging the foils horizontally through the water to provide lift. It would be interesting to know how much power that uses and how much noise or other noticeable stuff it generates.

It would seem from their marketing words that the Quantum systems are the only ones available that work at anchor.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

To my eye the best set up maybe a gyro for day to day but be able to deploy paravanes if the need arises such as very heavy seas or mechanical failure of the gyro.

See that the Artnautica comes stock set up for a jsd. More I look at it I’m impressed he’s taken Dashews thinking and moved it to a rational size. We were anchored next to a Dashew 64 in caneel bay with a couple on it. Seemed like an awful lot of boat for two people.think both for sail and power even if you have the money there’s too big. 

In Bart’s next to a ?Seaton 58 (?cape Scott) that seemed to have 4 couples on it. They followed us back to Cooper’s where we saw them again at dinner. Chatted up the owner. He said he was uncomfortable running the boat with less than three. I like just me and the bride.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Cant imagine towing a drogue on a 200+ mile a day power boat for recreational use between the US and Carribean. Put the hammer down and go. Need to rejig your nav process. Dont need to worry about reaching any more. Just point the boat where you want to go. If the weather looks dodgy dont even go offshore. Take the ditch, you will draw similar to many beach cats with boards down.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

No think you’re missing it. Drogue only for survival storm situation.

No way to get to windwards via the ICW. That’s why 2200nm +10% reserve stipulated. The Korvet 14 would need modification to allow that. Stock it’s ~1400nm. The Nordhavns, diesel ducks etc. would not need any changes. On many of the boats under consideration drafts are between 5 and 6 feet. For the converted fishing trawlers up to 7’. Still need to pay attention. 

We currently carry a jsd. It’s been in the water once to see how it works. Expect the same if we went to power. If we end up with used trawler (most likely) probably a sea anchor not a drogue as it seems they do better taking things on the bow.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I wasnt really missing it, but okay. 

You can reach south Florida via ICW, then island hop. Believe that route is unpopular with sailors due to trade winds. I followed your progress in your thread this fall. Leisurely trip down the ICW seemed like it would have been a lot less stressful. If your preference is to travel offshore though, that is entirely up to you.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I do think some want a motor boat at sea to be dead stable. That aint gunna happen. (unless youre in the Bahamas).

By the time one has paid out for a slick motor boat you may as well just fly the woman ahead and go with a few buddies. Beer and fishing. What day are we due in port? Dunno, Don't care!


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

We are not ready to make the switch but if we do it will most likely be a Grand Banks 32 . We have some experience with the GB's , my father had a woodie GB 32 in the early 80's we loved that little boat it had a very nice motion chugging along at about 6kt's it's Ford Layman 6cl purring . That was the boat my dad should have kept . The next rung on the ladder for him was a 36 GB twin diesel , nice boat but it's motion at sea was a wet ride even in moderate seas spray over the flying bridge . Around 89' he made the jump to a new 42' GB twin engine , turbo Cummings diesels . Back then base price was 250 K with no electronics , because it had twin steering stations he had to double up on everything . Inside , in the galley it was impressive down to the ice maker , freezer , twin reefers , oven , stove and micro , twin sink basins miles of counter tops . Killer sound system , aft cabin island bed , twin heads . My mom liked it . A few years later he had to have a fire sale , it was the economy .
GB 32
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/0b/d3/2c/0bd32c08255e716395a161d3f794dd1a.jpg

GB 36
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/7f/d5/ea/7fd5ea9a6ea2cdb7b4514da88c8bed24.jpg

GB42

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/35/0e/7c/350e7c53e0d586302fb11501a4ca994c.jpg


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Friend was a GB dealer. Did a few short hops with him. Great boats but that hull shape isn’t meant for heavy weather. No semi displacement Thinking of only full displacement hulls. Always liked the Europa tho. 
Fuel economy goes south going against wind and weather. From what I see the passage just like we currently make makes best sense for most. Coming home going west to Bahamas then up the coast has some appeal.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

This thread is interesting. The discussion about drogues, etc. got me thinking.

We just use our down east boat for day fishing, but we go 50-70 miles offshore. You'd think that usually you can get a WX window, and usually we do, but one time NOAA and our self forecasting was badly wrong, and I found myself motoring 50 miles back against NE storm conditions. It became clear to me at least in this situation that if I lost power, I would probably loose the boat. Even slowing down we took water over the bow, worked the throttle constantly, and I wondered about the windows. If the motor failed, and I drifted stern to, or even beam to the sea, it wasn't going to go well. So I've been thinking a para-anchor or something might be good to keep the bow into it, even for this "day boat." But the down east is low profile, weight low....

With a bigger trawler style (Nordhaven, etc.), if you loose power, what's the drill. Lot's of windage, pretty top heavy, birds aren't going to do much without headway, active stabilizers without headway aren't going help I'd think particularly in difficult conditions, the big giro stabilizer has lost power for spinning, so I'd think you'd need one big a** parachute off the bow? 

This is not a leading question, I really don't know. Do these boats carry giant sea anchors? How big? Interesting deployment problems too. I wouldn't have wanted to go up on the bow even on my little boat. Lots of windage and the center of gravity appears to be high, so I'd think you'd swing quite a bit. There's probably a way to do it without going up on the bow? 

What's the common wisdom/experience with this. I've heard a lot about what to do in a sailboat, not so much about a big trawler offshore in storm conditions.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

it depends 
If one of the current generation of very narrow and long boats they deploy a jsd just like a sailboat. 
Otherwise 
Many have two engines in which case total power loss is more unlikely. They continue to meet the seas bow first under power
If single engine and the get home engine vastly underpowered they deploy a massive sea anchor as you suggest.

The other issue is their AVS is usually nothing like a sailboat. As an example a diesel duck is only 60 degrees so broaching is a very big deal. Recovery from a knock down is more problematic.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been talking with boat brokers. A lot of people doing what we’re doing get away with an hour of genset time per day. Some depending on freezer/frig every two/ three days. That’s acceptable


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Remove your mast and sailing gear.
Add fuel tanks.
Add stablizer.
:grin


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Seriously though, going to a cat might seem to your as if shes not working as much.
Mono motion is constant...bracing, leaning, holding on, etc
She gets a den and patio, nice level galley...and you get to sail.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

You folks mention cats and that’s great. Please suggest a cat with 2200nm range with10% reserve for under $1,000,000.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Here's one: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2009/malcolm-tennant-domino-20-3223885/

Other similar designs exist.

Do you really need 2200nm range? It sounds like you might still be thinking like a sailboater in this. VMG is excellent on a powerboat, so going directly into the wind is not an issue. This means that there is no "thorny path" to the Caribbean from New England, so no reason to go with the winds, and you can plan fuel stops accordingly.

Mark


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Yea, where does this 2200 nm range requirement come from? If you are thinking trans-atlantic (I guess via Bermuda-Azores?), then it seems like you already have the superior boat for that passage in your current Outbound. 

The draw of cruising under power, to me, is the increased comfort and livability of those designs (versus sailboats in comparable size), the reduced draft, and most important, not being reliant on wind speed/direction to get places. For most of these considerations, the benefits are most pronounced when you're hopping around in the islands. If weeks-long 2200 nm open ocean passages is what you want to do, it seems to make less sense to consider moving from your current boat to power, at least to me. 

In my mind, there's more than a lifetime of cruising that can reasonably be done under power between the U.S. east coast and the Caribbean without needing huge range like you are talking about.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The fuel economy quoted represents a number in flat seas against no significant headwinds. Both do impact powercraft. From talking with owners of these boats numbers in promo literature is optimist at best. Real numbers are lower. I have no interest in ever doing the ICW again. I have no interest in seeing Bermuda again unless weather forces me to. Nor be in Cuba, Dominican rep, PR. I do have interest in leaving from Newport and going to the Eastern Caribbean. Assuming a 1500-1700nm rhumb line desire to keep to a 6-7kt average or better . Cost of a GB is comparable to a Nordhavn or like boat. Operating costs as well. Nordhavn s KK etc offer 3000nm range if you want to slow up enough. That’s not what we’re talking about. The boats seem to fall in to a 600g +/- 150 or 1000g and up. Either going down the coast and up the chain or obligate Bermuda stop. Or straight shot. If feasible would prefer the straight shot. Prefer 10 days and done. Of course climate change is changing the calculus. With long weather windows shortening it may become wise to island jump and just get use to repetitive waits when going east between islands. Both last years and this cruisers have had to wait more when going east all along the chain in my impression.


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## SteveR73 (Apr 23, 2018)

We switched to a Grand Banks 32 a little over two years ago. Didn't take us long to realize we REALLY missed the "quiet" of sailing! Although we are getting "up there," we bought a 2006 Hunter 36 a year ago and have not looked back. Roller furling, nice cabin, and plenty of cockpit space and a nice dodger makes it the perfect ride for us. So, if you don't mind the constant rumble of a big diesel engine ...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

One of things I didn’t like about the smallGBs was the noise. Total agree with you. Surprised the bigger boats in the 40-50’ range are considerably less noisy.it almost a distant hum like you get on a ship. You can fall asleep underway without troubles.


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

outbound said:


> Curious anyone here has done passages on powerboats. Was it uncomfortable due to motion? Boring as all get out? Tiring due to mechanical noises? Or pleasantly relaxing?


I've done passages on my previous motorboat, big heavy steel with twin Jimmies. It was not stabilized so the rolling could get uncomfortable in heavy seas from the wrong direction. Running downwind in 12ft or less seas and it was rock stable. The previous owner had sailed it roundtrip from Great Lakes to Aussieland and back.

Am planning my next boat and it will be steel, single diesel and have passive stabilizers. You never get bored because there is always something to keep you busy just like on a sailboat. BTW I did suffer fatigue because of the engine noise, but my boat was 40 years old and I had not upgraded the sound insulation. Today's technology is much better so I doubt that would be an issue anymore. Plus Jimmies are really loud.

There's a romantic side to me that misses sailboats, but my wife would never be comfortable in long passages that way. Hope this helps.


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

outbound said:


> All true. That's why folk are going with zero velocity stabilization... The down side is in really heavy weather the precession is so strong it can wreck the boat.


You forgot one minor, itsy-bitsy downside, and that is that you have to run the generator constantly as these gyros require about 3kW to 5kW of constant electric supply. You could rig a shaft generator or a massive main engine driven one. Plus they cost about $60k-80k to install.

Not sure what you mean by damage to the hull. Have there been cases of this happening?


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> A 62 foot Nordhavn has published their budget.
> 
> They are world travelers doing far more than NYC to Bahamas each year...
> Look at their fuel budget and its not excessive for the number of miles theyre doing.
> ...


This is obviously 5-star cruising but it is very helpful. I also found that the price of fuel was NOT the biggest expense with a powerboat. Fueling up with 1600 gallons was still significant in cost, but I fueled at the commercial docks and ran the boat at low speeds (V/L=1.05) and never ran the generator. Today with lots of solar you don't even need a genet unless you have air-conditioning.


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

*Mark* this is very good feedback and my comments below in CAPS for others to consider as well:



colemj said:


> When the weather is crappy, it is great to be in a climate-controlled pilot house. ACTUALLY IN GOOD WEATHER AS WELL. I DON'T LIKE BEING DIRECTLY IN THE SUN, LONG TERM EXPOSURE, AND EVEN UNDER A BIMINI YOU STILL GET REFLECTED SUN. THINK SKIN CARE!
> 
> Passagemaking is probably more relaxing than in a sailboat because there is less to "do" TRUE ALTHOUGH I CONSTANTLY AM PLOTTING MY POSITION ON PAPER CHARTS (OLD FASHIONED I SUPPOSE) AND YOU FIND THINGS TO KEEP BUSY IN OTHER WAYS, DIFFERENT THAN SAIL OF COURSE.
> 
> ...


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

This is an excellent thread! Very long but as Friday is our day off here in the Middle East, I've been going through it and have some random thoughts:

POWER MANAGEMENT
It's true that powerboats tend to load with the comforts more than long distance sailers. Also the majority of powerboats do not cross oceans or cruise long distance, like so many sailboats. It would be interesting if you were building a new powerboat (or rebuilding a project boat) to outfit in a simple manner, like a "Pardey Powerboat" sorta thing. But I think that would entail staying away from the generator so as to be completely self-reliant.

BTW I see many advantages to wiring your boat for 230v/110v especially if it is larger. And this is without a generator. Multiple inverters in parallel provide redundancy. It's a matter of how "electrified" you are. My big boat 65ft was all electric. Ran off inverters. But it had a 8)8D battery bank and I operated it alot to recharge the batteries, so I didn't run the generators. I hated those bastards with a passion 

FLYBRIDGES
This is just a personal decision. I had one and only used it for docking, never else. However if you're expecting high latitude sailing, preparing for heavy seas, then you may wish to drop it to reduce windage and weight aloft.

HIGH BOWS
Not sure why all the concern and comments about the high freeboard when it comes to anchoring or mooring or docking. You buy the boat that fits your needs and then master how to maneuver it. On a large boat a bow thruster is a help. If you have a specific situation where a stern thruster is needed then so be it, but otherwise it seems that many owners install mechanisms because of their lack of self confidence. A few weeks training with a captain costs less than installing a thruster!

STEADYING SAILS
My experience is that they are only truly effective when they grow to the size of a motorsailer. Those little tiny sails that they install on a Grand Banks will help to minimize "sailing around" while at anchor, but are mostly worthless for steadying. 

BUDGETS
I doubt that the annual ownership cost of a power trawler is much different than a sailboat, if you look at the costs over a 5 or 10 year period. My boat was old and therefore purchase cost was reasonable. If you want an ocean-capable motorboat, at a reasonable cost, then look for a used, homemade, steel Diesel Duck. Excellent sea boats. Interiors are about the same as a sailboat however - that's the compromise. Someone commented about the DD's having an AVS of 60 degrees. I highly doubt that.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Stern thrusters might come in kind of handy for loopers and similar, and no doubt that is why some power boats have them. If you are routinely doing 10 or 15 locks a day, they could probably save a few minutes of maneuvering time a day. But I dont see how the extra cost, extra maintenance, extra weight, lost storage space and extra hull penetration would make any sense if you are in a coastal situation and only docking once or twice a day. They just seem like a liability for the useage the OP has described.


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

All good points regarding a stern thruster *Arcb*. For long distance power cruisers, especially those who don't plan to be living in marinas constantly, then a bowthruster is optional too, especially if budget is tight. If your boat has twin diesels then forget a thruster.

I singlehanded my 65ft for years and had zero need for one. Guys up to 80ft say the same thing. If you're a single, heavy displacement, not too high in windage, then you can live without it also. A husband/wife team can easily handle a 50ft single engine.

Of course for weekend cruisers who are back and forth into crowded marinas, or have nice budgets to work from, then it's a different story.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I’ve been in touch with China. Their NA (Lily) sent me all their stability data. Apparently required by the Chinese equivalent of ABYC but with teeth as boats can’t be sold unless they meet govt requirements. So it’s a cold hard fact AVS is 60degrees for a Diesel Duck. 
I’ve tried to get a Gz curve from other builders as well. So far without success. 
The Seakeeper gyro has somewhat less draw then suggested once up and running and more to spin up. But downside remains from what I’m told. Takes 20-40 minutes to totally spin up. Also given they way it works it puts tremendous strain on the framing of the boat so may need to be turned off if seas get big enough.
This leads me to believe a gyro plus passive paravanes maybe the best solution in boats the size I’m looking at. 
There seems to be a dichotomy. Boats generator dependent and those that are not. Had a long conversation about this with a Kadey-Krogen rep. With current set ups (existing boats of last 10 years) many of their owners are running gensets 1 to 2 hours every 1 to 3 days. My impression was every time I go past a powerboat cruiser in the dinghy I heard or see the splash of the generator. She assures me that’s wrong. Will investigate further. Have been looking at generator hours v engine but this doesn’t really help as you don’t know hours at anchor v underway. Some run generator even when underway.
At present solar and wind is sufficient at anchor unless we’re making water all day, running the AC or the like. Will investigate further.
But M your posts are extremely helpful. There’s no way I can get a view of what it’s like on passage without doing passage. Right now it’s not likely as I’m running my own boat. Have been talking with folks about a 1 week charter in the future. Depending on that may look to crew on a passage or two. 
Curious as to your view of the DD,Seahorse, N46\47\43\50, KK48\44, small Selene and Fleming.


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

Yes China requires a ZC certificate on all boats, even if they don't receive CCS classification. I'm surprise about the 60, and obviously it depends on the model. Just looking at the lines you'd expect somewhere in the 70-90 degree range, but perhaps this is because they are not ballasted. 

I've heard concerns lately about building at Seahorse, from a guy who cancelled his own build there, so if you seriously consider them please let me get you in touch with him for honest feedback.

Regarding the gyro, if the operational draw is 1kW or less then you can power it from a large battery bank, then fire up the genset once a day to recharge. Not a bad way to go. But I've heard of no personal-size trawler owner who runs his gennie 24hrs per day. Superyachts of course yes.

A key to powering today's modern cruising needs is by installing as much solar as can fit. A trawler with no flybridge is ideal. You can easily power your water maker. The limitation would likely be air-conditioning of course.

You asked about different models but it depends on your needs, personality and budget. DDs are a very different animal than the typical fiberglass production cruiser like Nordy or KK. All the ones you named have excellent reputations. But for real, long distance cruising I would stay away from the typical semi-displacement boat unless its a "long distance cruiser" version like Defever and Cheoy Lee make, for example, and even those are generally considered long distance coastal cruisers (think Seattle to Panama Canal to New York) but not necessarily LA to Hawaii.


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

*Outbound*, you've got me thinking. Cost aside, the best active stabilizer today is probably the gyro. When you're underway then a small belt-driven generator can power it, driven by the main engine. Just like a hydraulic stabilizer, it would only work when underway.

The problem is stabilization when anchored, which is something I personally require for my wife. So if that gyro, once spooled up, only needs 1kW (like mentioned earlier - but this needs to be confirmed) then that can be provided at anchor via a large battery bank. Genset runs once a day for a couple of hours, then Bob's your uncle!

Unfortunately I'm too cheap a bastard to pay $60k+ for a gyro. I wonder when the Chinese will start making cheap knock-offs????


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

What I like is nothing outside the hull and no effect on speed. But given we’re thinking of used this time probably paravanes/flopperstoppers and/or active fins.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/19...d-trawler-3056745/?refSource=standard listing


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks. That’s right in the sweet spot. Another 50 for updates/repairs/out fittings. Done.


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

*outbound* I can't send PMs to you, but to answer your request visit this blog and get in touch with this Duck owner - probably the most knowledgeable bluewater DD owner around

Home


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks. Reached out to him. Await response.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

Hello Outbound,

I drop in to Sailnet from time-to-time for my sailing fix. Immediately saw this thread, good timing I guess. My wife and I were sailors for years, and switched over to power in 2008. In 2012, we bought a Nordhavn 62. The next year (2013), we left Vancouver, BC, and have been cruising on a semi-permanent basis for the last 6 years. We crossed the pacific ocean, and regularly make 1200 mile voyages. We are currently lying Airlie Beach in Australia. This summer we'll head up into Indonesia and stop for awhile in Singapore. Life is good.
I have probably fixed (or given attention to) every component onboard, so it you have any specific questions, please ask here and I'll do my best to answer.

By the way, we both share the same enthusiasm for the Artnautica LRC58!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks. On my current boat have the feeling (right or wrong) that there’s enough “belt and suspenders” that I can get to where I’m going and even hang out there for awhile before I need professional skilled help. In other words there are few enough key components I can’t fix or repair or work around while underway that the other stuff ( the black boxes of the electronics, the AP(have a vane )etc) is an inconvenience but not mission critical.
I’m a bit more concerned with power. Things like active fins, main propulsion engine (depending on a wing while in weather), AP, genset. So I’m curious as to your approach. I carry things like belts, filters, impellers, a spare alternator but not enough for a true rebuild. Any advice as too what to carry?


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

First of all, you are WAY ahead of the Trawler crowd with your sailing background. You can always tell when someone has had considerable time behind the wheel of a Trawler, or they've come from Sail. For instance, you are asking all the right questions! : )

I'm going to answer all your questions from my background as a Nordhavn owner though, because that is what I know best. I have experience with Diesel Ducks, Northern Marine's, Kadey Krogens, and Selens too, but I'll stick with Nordhavn's unless I mention otherwise.

Stabilization: It is required for comfort only. If you lose stabilization, you WILL be uncomfortable, but not unsafe. Most NH's have active stabilization by ABT (American Bow Thruster) TRAC series. Our fins are model 250's which just relate to the relative size, and this system has proven to be 100% reliable. I cannot say enough good things about this company, and yes, if I was to order a new Nordhavn, I would specify the exact same equipment. As an owner, you would take their free 2-day course, which is really a "what you need to know about hydraulics" course. Then you carry the spares specific to your boat. ABT lays all this out for you. Then, if a failure does occur, you have the knowledge and the spares to get through it. Worse case scenario, they'll 'pin to centre' and you go without them.
ABT do make a Stabilization At Rest package (STAR) which I have heard works quite well, but is a 'generator on' affair. If just using the fins underway to stabilize the boat, the power comes from a main-engine PTO (Power-Take-Off), which typically runs at 1500 psi, consuming around 4 HP.

Breakdowns at Sea: Yes, they happen. We all have to make peace with that. The Nordhavn's are engineered well, so any fault's are really going to come from the bolt-on accessories. You either have spares to fix them, or you don't. The typical Nordhavn new-build owner usually specs they boat with redundancy in mind. Our boat (INFINITY ∞) has been blessed this way. All important systems have back ups, and even those are powered from different voltage (12v and 110v). If one system goes down, you may switch to the unaffected system. I gotta say though, all the important stuff, Main Engine, Radar, Steering pumps, etc, is all commercial duty, so it is all pretty reliable. I personally live in fear all the time, that something is going to break that I can't fix, but that day in 20,000 miles has not happened yet. I have learned to place faith in the builder, while we gained experience and knowledge, bit by bit, day by day, year by year, in the background.
So, to answer your question, our approach to this issue is redundancy of equipment, and carry plenty of spares. I too carry all the spares you mentioned, and of course more. Our spares list is basic, but comprehensive. I couldn't really begin to go over every spare one should carry, as every boat is different. Every time I order something though, I order for 3 years. But obviously our 'mission' is different to many. These boats are component rich, and not for the light hearted. Pardey worshipers need not apply! ; ) (Lyn & Larry are actually Heroes of mine).

I can see already that you are on the right track though. Keep on thinking just as you are and your Trawler ownership will naturally unfold.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

Hello Darksiders,

After a two-year break from our website, I've finally got back into it and posted our time in New Zealand. For those interested, the link is here.
(https://n62infinity.com/listing/new-zealand/)


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

nemier said:


> Hello Darksiders,
> 
> After a two-year break from our website, I've finally got back into it and posted our time in New Zealand. For those interested, the link is here.
> (https://n62infinity.com/listing/new-zealand/)


Nice fuel burn stats. Did you get a chance to compare yours with the other N62 in the marina?

Great website post.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Great blog. We were off the boat for a few weeks to greet a new granddaughter. What amazes me is the things that mysteriously break while you’re away.
Want to get out of Jolly Harbor but the list got longer. Old and new list. Radar cable needs replacing. Brought down new one. Spent last night fixing stove. Need bottom dive done. AC on the friz. Replace third reef. Replace galley faucet. Replace MOM unit (last ones case destroyed by a boarding sea). And then the routine stuff.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Nice fuel burn stats. Did you get a chance to compare yours with the other N62 in the marina?


Hi Mark,

Yes, sure did. There were 37 N62's built and I basically have stats in one form or another, on all of them. I'm a closet spreadsheet junkie (but that doesn't make me a bad person) ? I find it interesting to compare the different engines, and get-home modes that the N62's have had installed.

There's one model for sure without a wing engine, and I believe they have better fuel burn figures than INFINITY (6218) no appendages! Also, there a few earlier model N62's which have much lower HP engines, and I believe they too also experience better feel economy. BTW, I do not quite understand that because utilizing 120HP from a 325HP engine should be the same as burning 120HP from a 225HP engine, but none-the-less, I do have testimonies to support it .?

Regardless, all N62's will get you across any Ocean, with reserve, so at least they've all got that.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

outbound said:


> Great blog. We were off the boat for a few weeks to greet a new granddaughter. What amazes me is the things that mysteriously break while you're away.
> Want to get out of Jolly Harbor but the list got longer. Old and new list. Radar cable needs replacing. Brought down new one. Spent last night fixing stove. Need bottom dive done. AC on the friz. Replace third reef. Replace galley faucet. Replace MOM unit (last ones case destroyed by a boarding sea). And then the routine stuff.


Thanks for your welcome comment on the blog. ?
Yeah, the maintenance is certainly a full-time job which continually flames the thought process of less = more.
My next sailboat will be a DD26, built by myself, and bare to the bone! (not one system to fix,,, not one!) ?


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

nemier said:


> I do not quite understand that because utilizing 120HP from a 325HP engine should be the same as burning 120HP from a 225HP engine, but none-the-less, I do have testimonies to support it.


It's not the same and absolutely varies amongst engines. You have to look at the specific fuel consumption vs prop-hp curve, or the manufacturer's fuel map if you can find one.

Every engine has a point of maximum efficiency and the magic is matching that point to the desired operational speed of your boat.

For example I was looking at the curves for one engine, available in different hp ratings, but at 1500rpm or 1800rpm. The 1800rpm engine achieves maximum SFC at about 95% prop load. The 1500rpm engine at about 50% prop load.

Many heavy duty rated engines are rated for continuous duty at 90%, or at the least 80%, and it is common for commercial ships to power to that number. They don't vary speed very much like a recreational, coastal, boater might.

So the older N62 you referred to was probably powered towards his desired cruise speed (I'm estimating about 8.0 - 8.5 knots), but yours has a lot more reserve power and likely the owner planned on higher cruise speeds in coastal waters (say 10 knots).

To each his own.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I read the complaints about systems but note like most long term cruisers in some fashion your N62 is set up to allow a very pleasant lifestyle. It’s also set up to allow communications and safety. 
The Lin & Larry mentality requires a total gestalt shift that most would find trying.
No AP you’re dependent upon vane. You have no way to stear the boat under power. On a powerboat that means someone at the wheel 24/7.
No stabilization means a very uncomfortable ride, breakage and great difficulty doing basic chores.
No AC means it rains inside the boat in high humidity and mold.
No water maker means going into land periodically and questionable water at times.
No gps dependent electronics means celestial and much higher risks.
You get the gist.
Yes, there’s a divide. Key v. comfort systems. But a systems poor boat does impact quality of life. Think all you can do is try for robust simple systems. Avoid those with electronics. So what if you need to flip a lever or a maintenance chore isn’t done automatically by some electronic brain.


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