# Size for single handing?



## NCK (Oct 31, 2015)

Ya, ya, I know, the how big thing again. I am just curious. Those of you that have done it in smaller boats 26/27 feet. If you had it to do again and money was no object would you choose that small again. Or if money was no object would you choose a 30, 32, 35 footer. I guess the reason for this post, I was living in a 26m studio condo recently in Thailand and it flooded. Moved into a 35m room and was like O'hhh, what a difference. Just curious if those of you that have been there and done that in both a mid 20's boat and a 30's boat felt the same. Or was the smaller boat easier and more manageable. 

I don't care about ocean crossing. Just Calif West Coast and the Caribbean(Panama to Caribbean being the only long crossing, though Calif and Central America have their own challenges). More realistically only Mexico and California. 

It seems like most of the advice and books are more geared to crossing oceans than harbor/anchorage hopping in comfort. Obviously money isn't no object but 32 footer is well within budget and working half the year maintaining a 32 footer isn't the end of the world. 

Guess what I'm getting at, would harbor hopping half the year be a lot more comfortable in a 32 footer than a 27 footer. Or in your opinion is the added living and storage space not worth the hassle of a bigger boat. 

Thanks


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Stowage will be a big factor.
Yeah go to your 32


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Most sailboats are not designed necessarily with single-handing in mind, unless it was specified during the build,. 

To single handle boat a strong aptitude of how things work mechanically and in particular mechanical advantage; using wheels weights lines levers, etc. 

I single-handed a 30 foot O'Day for close to 10 years. 

Generally people single hand boats up to 40-50ft! 

A fractional rig is usually easier to handle then a masthead rig,. Roller furling, lines lead aft, additional winches, cross sheeting, snatch blocks, cam cleats, wheel or tiller locking, automatic pilots, will all to be added to the vocabulary of somone setting up a boat for single handing.

Logic and layout can, may, could, should overrule machismo & muscle in this case.. 

I did have my struggles with a 150 Genoa on my 30 foot boat at times but it was me testing my limits.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

46 footer


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I singlehand almost all the time... or sail with non sailors the rest of the time. Rare that I have another sailor on board. But that is a pleasure.

I jumped in at 36' and so I have little experience with large boats except for those I have delivered... a Valient 40 and a Stephens 52. My 36 feels like a good size.. fast passages... lots of stowage and head room and cockpit, strong and secure. 5 more feet would make passages a tiny bit fast and maybe more storage. But things get expensive as size increases... and it may not be worth it for a single hander.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

46 to 50 feet.

46 minimum... Beneteau or Jeaneau. 

50 footer could be a larger variety of boats.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> 46 to 50 feet.
> 
> 46 minimum... Beneteau or Jeaneau.
> 
> 50 footer could be a larger variety of boats.


You and Don....
This guy might be serious


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> You and Don....
> This guy might be serious


I was serious


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

RegisteredUser said:


> You and Don....
> This guy might be serious


I am serious! I have solo'd a 39 footer over 20,000nms and I can assure you I would like a bigger boat.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

His 32, in his budget, will do what hes laid out.
Great for Sea of Cortez etc

When i get scared i want a 60...but i really dont.

An 80 with mucho bikinis...yeah


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

First boat I lived on I was marina hopping and single was a 30 footer. I thought it was a really nice size. Next one was a 35 with my wife and I found the 30 easier 1 up then the 35 two up. Docking and maintenance and cost were the main things that were hrder with the bigger boat.

The other thing worth noting is the increase in speed with a longer water line is it is non linear in nature. Its an exponential equation with diminishing returns on per foot increase in size. Basically, a 30 foot boat is less than 50% faster than a 20 ft boat (square route of the wl/l x 1.34), while at the same time the increase in maintenance cost per foot of length is also considered to be non linear in nature with a 30 ft boat being more than 50% more expensive to maintain than a 20 ft boat.

The result being that returns on increase in length on passage speed vs cost to maintain become less exagerated with each foot increase in length . Basically if using a linear graph, a smaller boat is proportionately faster than a larger boat and proportionately cheaper to maintain.

So if cost is an issue, you dont want to over do it. However, you do need a boat that is big enough to get the job done. If I all of a sudden found myself single, living aboard and marina hopping again I would probably look in the 30-34 ish foot range, but every one has different speed, comfort and cost expectations.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I am serious! I have solo'd a 39 footer over 20,000nms and I can assure you I would like a bigger boat.


I have read that you go to a lot of really interesting urban centres; New York, Paris, London and Amsterdam? Maybe all within the last 12 months? Do you think it would be harder to find moorage with a bigger boat, or do you mostly anchor out, or is it no big deal?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Arcb said:


> I have read that you go to a lot of really interesting urban centres; New York, Paris, London and Amsterdam? Maybe all within the last 12 months? Do you think it would be harder to find moorage with a bigger boat, or do you mostly anchor out, or is it no big deal?


Yes, that's why I haven't bought a bigger boat.

NYC a mooring on the Hudson at 79th St is $26 per day for Max 40 feet. 
40.1 feet is $150 per day because u need to use the marina.

So when I get finished with my city visits in Europe and USA I will buy a bigger boat and do another lap.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

deniseO30 said:


> A fractional rig is usually easier to handle then a masthead rig,. Roller furling, lines lead aft, additional winches, cross sheeting, snatch blocks, cam cleats, wheel or tiller locking, automatic pilots, will all to be added to the vocabulary of somone setting up a boat for single handing.


Denise, why is a fractional rig easier than a masthead?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I am serious! I have solo'd a 39 footer over 20,000nms and I can assure you I would like a bigger boat.


I think Mark's experience is based on his getting very comfortable with handling his boat in all conditions and believing that more LWL is faster and give more space for "stuff" without representing any handling challenges. This IS true in most conditions. However forces increases quickly and sheet loads and so on could be more than double under the same conditions.

My main is 440SF and at my age I am using a Milwaukee to get it up. The sails are a pain to haul around as well. I rely on a windlass. I can manhandle the boat in moderate winds at a dock. I doubt I could do it with a 50' boat. Once underway... under AP in reasonable conditions 50 is not problem. I know this from the Stephens 52 I helped deliver. It was a treat but I would think twice about having that size boat in every condition I find myself in. Fact is I have enough space on board. Who needs a large wardrobe or a library of books? I have mostly tools and spares and how much more space would I need for that?

36 works I would be OK with 40. Your mileage may vary.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

We used to have a saying that one should never buy a cruising boat that one could not sail alone, even if you had a lifelong partner. $hit happens and more often than not somebody had to sail the boat some distance alone, at least once. 
Then along came roller furling. First jibs, then boomed sails, electric winches, GPS and the size boat that a competent sailor could single hand went up by leaps and bounds.
For me though, it's all about comfort, as a lifelong liveaboard (since 1969). I have no desire at all to "camp out" in my home. I like enough lockers to store whatever I want to, from my clothes to several weeks (or longer if making crossings) of food so I need not go to the store every other day. Of course, refrigeration, hot and cold running water and a good shower. A watermaker is almost indispensable these days, with the quality of the shore water deteriorating. And a bed, a *real* bed, and sheets that don't need to be custom made. A galley I can cook an elaborate meal in if I wish, at anchor or at sea, etc, etc.
That takes some size. 
But, as those before me have said, it is a very personal thing. You may think a 53 footer is just crazy for a singlehander, but to me, it's just a comfortable retirement home that will take me anywhere I choose to go.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I think Mark's experience is based.... believing that more LWL is faster...


No, it's not speed. It's safety. There's no doubt the bigger the boat the better it handels the wind and waves, the more difficult to knock down etc.bigger is also more comfort, more living space.

Primarily I am. Looking for a boat that I can afford that's closest to the size of the Queen Mary.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I can't tell from the OP's post if the issue is handling the boat in motion, or living on the boat at anchor/dock.

My observations as a part time coastal cruiser only, but owner of 5 different boats over too many years.

I lived 13 weeks on a 52 foot boat, it got wicked small after about 11 weeks. I wanted off. On the same boat, had a jib furler blow up, luckily I had crew to help me man handle the genoa to the deck. Even then, I can't lift the sail bag myself, the dead weight. I have single handed that same boat. When the furler works, the bow thruster works, the power winches work, the in mast power hood mainsail furler works, the engine works, and the generator works to keep that big bank of batteries up, it's easier than a sunfish.

The problem is they don't always work.

On the other end of the spectrum, our first boat was 22'. I could step the mast single handed, never mind sail it. Of course, to use the head in the middle of the night, you needed to reconfigure the sleeping quarters, etc. ,etc. Couldn't live on that longer than a weekend with a very, very close companion.

Now middling with 38 feet. A good compromise, I can lift a sail in its bag by myself, no power winches are necessary, need a crane to step the mast, but that's about it..... but lets' just say if 52' isn't big enough to live on full time, 38...well.... So a few weeks and weekends each summer is what we do.

I have friends who could live in a pup tent and be happy. I have other friends that need a few thousand square feet of house to be happy. Only you can answer this question for yourself.

The other thing that others like Mark are telling you is that size really matters offshore. The ocean is big. We only do a few passages now and then, but we definitely concur with this. Longer is faster and safer but usually with more complex systems and maintenance issues.

Finally, if in doubt, consult the ultimate source - _the hitchhiker's guide to the universe_. The answer is 42'.

Good luck.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Larger boats have a more sea-kindly motion... and shorter LWL offer a bumpy ride in the ocean. Of course this depends on the conditions. Really nasty conditions are still nasty on a 50'+ boat.

And then there's the cost of everything and the time needed to keep it good shape. 36' takes plenty of time. And creature comforts are important and that does call for a longer LWL.

It would interesting to get stats on the LWL of boats which are singlehanded out cruising the world.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

This question comes up a lot and the responses always seems to come down to length which has very little to do with the answer. More than any other single factor, displacement controls the ease of handling, cost to build, cost to maintain, space onboard, carrying capacity and so on. 

Following that, as a broad generality, for any given displacement a longer waterline length will result in an increased seaworthiness, motion comfort, carrying capacity as a percentage of the displacement, performance and ease of handling.

People have single handled some very big boats, but as a boat's displacement gets bigger, more complex equipment is required to handle the higher loads. 

Depending on your own physical condition there is a displacement limit at which it becomes uncomfortably difficult to handle a boat with out powered winches or other mechanical devices. For me that limit is somewhere around 11,000-13,000 pounds of displacement. Above that the loads can be handled with more powerful winches and tackles, but that comes at the price of a whole lot more grinding and line to handle.

For the past 17 years I have been single handing my 10,500lb- 38 footer, in a broad range of conditions from almost no wind, to gusts into the high 40 knot range.(I didn't plan to be out there in that wind range.) I have found that size displacement and length very comfortable to handle.

Now then, in fairness, I am mostly a coastal cruiser and so don't need to carry all of the gear and consumables that would be required for distance voyaging. And while I think my boat would be very comfortable for one or two people to live aboard, life aboard would be pretty Spartan compared to a boat with a more luxurious interior.

When people recommend a bigger boat, typically this comes out of a perceived need for greater carrying capacity, storage volume, and living space, and they are comfortable with the greater inconvenience, cost, and complexity of a larger boat.

As noted above a fractionally rigged sloop makes a boat easier to handle solo since the jibs are smaller and easier to adjust, they require fewer headsails, they are easier to depower in changing conditions, and they will typically sail well under the mainsail alone in rapidly building conditions or working your way into a confined area under sail. 

Jeff


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Jeff H pretty much sums it up. How many have had sufficient experience in various sized boats... displacements to inform their decision? Like Jeff I can only comment on Shiva which is 36' and 16k# displacement and a fractional rig and has been sailed offshore and lived aboard in the tropics. It is a rare occasion when the forces seemed more than I could handle or wanted to handle. The design offered me lots of interior volume and stowage... except for water and fuel and that is solved by a water maker and jerry cans. I wouldn't go smaller but would go 10% larger. More than that I think it could be too much in certain conditions.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Adding to Jeff's comments about the ease of handling a fractional rig boat, a masthead rig is primarily driven by the jib. A fractional rig is primarily driven by the mainsail. Thus a frac. rig boat doesn't need a big, overlapping jib to power it. Overlapping sails snag on the shrouds when you tack. Overlapping sails use much longer sheets, which you must tail every time you tack. Overlapping sails create much higher loads. All that means that when you tack the frac. rig boat, you can get the jib over, trimmed in and driving much quicker, and with far less hard grinding. With a little practice and a good helmsman you can tack a 40 ft. frac. rig boat and snap over the jib surprisingly easily in 30 kt winds. If the boat becomes overpowered sailing closehauled in a gust, easing the traveler will reduce the power instantly.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I think Jeff is wrong about a fractional rig being a good choice for single handing. reducing is mostly done by reefing the main.

I single hand a 44 ft cutter I rarely have to reef the main or shake it out. The staysail stays up regardless and I can deal with a fair range of wind speeds by playing with the 120% roller furling genoa.

Getting back to the OPs question 30 ft is a LOT bigger when it comes to living aboard than 27 ft. 

Before he buys anything he should at least look at the cabin layout on a Catalina 30. Much roomier than most 30 ft boats and still sails well especially in deep fin tall mast configuration.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Seems people worry about stuff they have no experience... Or creativity to get around a problem.

In the last 11 years I have only blown 1 sail in a storm. It was the Main. I just chucked a lashing around it and sailed on the Genoa till life moderated. 

Now if I was in a situation where I could physically not lift the sail but needed to move it do you think there's *any possible way* to move it by yourself, or will you die at sea? 

Really? You're gunna die? 
There's a myriad of solutions right there but you are just giving up "It can't be done, God take me!" 

Snappin ducks butts, baby, you're gunna have one hell of a time at sea. 

There's 2 things you can do: fix at sea, or do without it. 
Doing without it is pretty jolly easy on most bits of junk. 

Fixing it... : Lifting & moving objects too heavy for u to lift, Given this equipment:
Winches, plural
Mast
Boom
Spinnaker pole
Halyards, multiple 
Spare ropes, bloody lots of
Sharp knives: in your back from ex-gf
Brain. Any brain on board? 

Put brain into gear and get cracking. :grin :grin :grin


BTW before some goose tells me they need to die because some sail is stuck up the mast or forestay... Use your creative brain. There's a solution but you haven't found it yet. :devil


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Snappin ducks butts, baby, you're gunna have one hell of a time at sea.


love it when you go all technical :grin


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I bought my 30 foot 1986 Nonsuch in 1995 and have not looked at another boat since. Lived on board from April to December for several years in New York City too. Very comfortable and easy to handle for a single handed sailor like myself. My Estate will probably be selling the boat when I'm gone.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

JeffH has the right point - it's all about displacement. His 38' is only 1.5 or so tons more than my 31' (I'm a shade under 4 tons).

If I was in and out of marinas a lot, I'd want something I could wrestle in a pinch. Much more displacement than I'm already at would be too much. My friend's 45' has awesome space, but displaces 12 tons - it's a bear to get under control in a crosswind.

I think a minimalist couple could be happy in 30'-32'. But I've never done more than short stays. Would depend a lot on personality. I have had a friend stay on the boat for a couple weeks at a time.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

So much of this depends on your personal preferences. I like a bit of size for a few reasons: safety, comfort and fun.

By size, I have settled on a 40 foot Catalina 400. It has an in-mast furler, and I've installed power winches for the jib sheets. Yes, it is a mast head rig, and I have a 135 Genoa jib. I put on the winches because in two weeks I'll be 70 years old, and I figured that I can single-hand for a few years longer, and I wanted to ease the physical load on my upper body. They really do make things easier. Hey, If they stop working, I can just use them as manual winches till I get them fixed. I've been very happy with the in-mast, and If it breaks down, I'll fix it. Same can be said about any boat system. I love to sail the boat by myself, and it works just fine. Most modern boats have the winch placements and running rigging set up for ease of single handing.

I think that this boat is safer than a smaller boat. In my typical sailing area (between Monterey and San Francisco) it is not uncommon to be out in 30 knot winds. I've owned a lot of boats, and sailed on a lot of others. I find that my boats in the 35 and 30 foot range to be a bit "lively" in an active seaway. I like the way my boat handles the seas. Yes, light vs. mediium, vs. heavy displacement make a big difference in stability, but that is mitigated by the differences in manverability and speed. So you can make your own choice of which combination best suits your preferences. In my experence, the 40 foot range of boats seem to handle the sea state well. I've chosen to go with a longer, more mauverable boat. Above 20 knots, the boat loads up a lot of force on the sails, rig and hull. I find the forces manageable, but I do find myself reefing much earlier when I'm single handing. Reducing loads reduces gear failure, and gives that boat (and me) a bigger margin for error.

A modern forty footer is more comfortable for me. I've got a lot of room to store the various things that make my life mo better. The cabin is super comfy, and yes, very attractive. Light and open. On deck, I've got a dodger and Bimini. It keeps that sun off me, and is a nice place to get out of the wind and spray. I like the nice wide side decks - easy to walk to the bow in a blow, or to hang out on at anchor. As a medium displacement boat, the Catalina 400 moves well in lighter winds, and is super easy to dock or anchor. It's a pretty big boat when I'm just sailing around daysailing by myself, but it seems small when I'm off on an adventure. I like the fact that I can have a bunch of family or friends, or just take off with my wife and myself. I does seem kind of luxurious, but yes, I think a forty footer is very comfy for a single hander.

So, what's the fun length? Remember that song ... "Love the one you're with"? I've lived on a Aurora 21 for about a year while I got my teaching credential. My wife and I sailed our Catalina 30 for ten years, as we raised our one, then two, then three young children. After a few other boats, we've been on our current boat for about 5 years. The Catalina 400. I've single handed each of these boats extensively. Bottom line? Each of them was just right for that time in my life.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Great post Scotty! I like the fact that your experience includes shorter boats until you arrived at the 40'. You're correct about motion in a seaway and if your sailing is going to include lots of offshore work in brisk conditions motion makes for safety as well as comfort in the end. For sure more space/volume is better than less... hard to argue the reverse. But bigger sails mean larger forces on the lines, larger hardware... and so on... I suspect that the difference between a 30 and a 40 is significant on all metrics. Again I suspect that Scotty was so comfortable with X feet moving up a bit was not a huge leap for him.... but he does rely on mechanical assists like in mast furling and powered winches. But then again he's also a senior. I find that constant grinding of winches is for racers who are constantly tacking and changing course. I appreciate his reasoning!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Well, if you are going to go up to 40 or 50 feet, one thing you sure as heck dont want to do is try it on a 32 foot budget. Boats in that size range are nice for open water but they are not the best for gunkholing, so it depends on what you want to do. A big part of the reason I downsized from 35 to 21 was the 35 footer just wasnt any good for exploring coves, creeks and rivers. So it really depends on the experience your looking for. Consider that most marinas charge by the foot, so a 40 foot boat is 33% more expensive to dock in a marina than a 30 ft boat, every night.

If you are going to go for a big boat, and budget is no issue, why not go to a catamaran.

Folks are stating the reason they like their bigger boats has a lot to do with comfort, safety and speed, which sound like 3 excellent arguments for buying a catamaran. If you still want something fun to sail, you can carry a sailing dinghy on deck of the catamaran.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Good point, Arcb, going to the larger boats increases the cost exponentially. I had thought to include that, so thanks for bringing it up. I (we) make a lot of sacrifices in order to afford our boat, but as in many things, we all decide how to prioritize. For us, the boat is a big part of our lives, so we make it work. Budget is, however, an issue for us, as I imagine it is for most of us. A catamaran of a similar size might stretch the budget beyond the breaking point.

I like catamarans. I sailed a 46' Choy cat from Acapulco to Costa Rica. I just like sailing my boat better. I like to stay at different harbors when out cruising, and finding slips for a cat is sometimes a challenge. And yes, I am a bit afraid of the things capsizing - especially on the smaller cats. Not very logical, but there it is. So, for those of the two - or three - hull persuasion, more power to you! I'm just a monohull kind of guy. Well, off to bed. Happy Thanksgiving to you all!!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I would buy a catamaran but that puts Europe and NE USA off the plot.

But if I was circumnavigating, or doing caribbean/pac I would have one.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree with Mark. Reefing the main regardless of system (slab, in mast or in boom is a hassle) particularly in heavy winds or with a system had requires you to head up and run the risk of a broach. Now with weather routing you have less risk of a storm but will always will see the occasional line squalls and rare gale. If you pay attention to seasons you will avoid beating. So inspite of the multiple advantages of a fractional rig for the voyager the Solent or cutter still makes sense.
We often reef the main first as pulling a string to reef a solent or genny is so much easier. We occasionally let loose the preventor or just drop main as catching the end of the boom in a sea can ruin your whole day.
I’m on 46’. It’s the ideal size for 2 person live aboard for us. We stand single person watches except in severe weather. That’s true coastal and offshore. However, docking remains a bugaboo. I need 2 people. In a crosswind or current another on the dock is even better. I’ve anchored out and waited a day just to be able to safely dock. If I was designing a live aboard from scratch it would be a split rig or solent or cutter of 45-52’ with bow and stern oversized thrusters. Waterline = better days work. Displacement = comforts and stores. 
I’m in love with the Lyle Hess 32’ cutter. But it means no room for watermaker, AC, genset, water toys etc. pays you money takes your chances.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Mark's point about cats and locations for berths and anchorages is spot on. While there are some cats the infrastructure is not friendly to them... yet... and the harbors are full of moorings which may or not work for a cat. This leaves anchoring way out from the town or the dock if you want to go to shore. I see very few cats in the NE USA where I sail despite the increasing popularity on the net and in places like the Caribbean.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I have observed an explosion in the number of small cruising cats in the Great Lakes in the last couple of years, which has a somewhat similar marina dependant set up as the US North East, although granted it is nowhere near as crowded. The smaller cruising cats can be shoe horned into some pretty tight spots due to a combination of extremely good maneuverability and shallow draft. 

Here is a pic I took this summer of a PDQ 32 parked in the weeds next to my Bay Hen. This is no go territory for a 40 foot keel boat as there is a 3 ft rock at the entrance to the cove and only 4 ft or less of water at the docks. This boat had as much living space as most 40 foot monohulls and was pretty quick too.


There were big monohulls around, but they were all anchored out offshore and needed to dinghy in to the island, which left the island nice and private for the multi hulls and I. I have seen this theme repeated a lot, big mono hulls either anchored out in deep water reliant on their dinghies to get to and fro or parked for big bucks in crowded marinas.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Arcb said:


> I have observed an explosion in the number of small cruising cats in the Great Lakes in the last couple of years, which has a somewhat similar marina dependant set up as the US North East, although granted it is nowhere near as crowded. The smaller cruising cats can be shoe horned into some pretty tight spots due to a combination of extremely good maneuverability and shallow draft.
> 
> Here is a pic I took this summer of a PDQ 32 parked in the weeds next to my Bay Hen. This is no go territory for a 40 foot keel boat as there is a 3 ft rock at the entrance to the cove and only 4 ft or less of water at the docks. This boat had as much living space as most 40 foot monohulls and was pretty quick too.
> 
> There were big monohulls around, but they were all anchored out offshore and needed to dinghy in to the island, which left the island nice and private for the multi hulls and I. I have seen this theme repeated a lot, big mono hulls either anchored out in deep water reliant on their dinghies to get to and fro or parked for big bucks in crowded marinas.


Not everyone is interested in being in a dock or very close to shore... and like anchoring out (if it's safe) because its peaceful. It's a sort of balance in terms of what you want when you are cruising. I personally have no interest in docks or marinas as a place to spend the night. I am fine with using a dink to get to shore. However anchoring out is also a balance... how far makes sense... These days there are few to no really quiet empty anchorages.... too many boats and sailors out there cruising have discovered all the great locations to visit.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Don't try cruising on a small catamaran unless you can more or less guarantee down wind sailing. 

Watching a 38 ft cat hobby horsing like crazy and trying to beat to windward in the Caribbean two step is watching misery on the seas.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

TQA said:


> I think Jeff is wrong about a fractional rig being a good choice for single handing. reducing is mostly done by reefing the main.


With all due respect, the end of that statement ignores one of the main reasons that a fractionally rigged sloop does make a more ideal rig to single- or short-hand (than either a cutter or a masthead sloop); the ability to quickly depower both sails, rather than need to reduce sail area. The ability to depower greatly extends the wind range of the sail plan without needed to depower, often by as much as 5-8 knots of windspeed beyond the point at which reefing would have been necessary if the ability to depower was not available.

On a modern fractional rig, the simple single adjustment of increasing backstay tension flattens both the mainsail and jib at the same time, and opens the head of the sails decreasing the incident angle of the sail. With that single adjustment, heel angle, weather helm, and leeway are reduced close to the equivillent amount that would occur with a single reef in a mainsail, while still maintaining the ideal sail trim for the conditions. It is one of the primary reason that the vast majority of the major manufacturers of cruising sailboats have switched over to fractional rigs.

That advantage for a single-hander is in addition to advantage in the ease of tacking and adjusting the smaller headsails on a fractional rigged sloop, and the fact that jib does not need to get dragged across a jibstay and forward lowers on each tack. It comes in addition to the fact that fractional rigs can often get by with minimally overlapping headsails allowing for a single jib to have 20 or more knot wind range while still maintaining the ideal shape for the conditions, which produces some mix of needing fewer and smaller headsails, and not having to make as many headsail changes, or living with poor headsail shape in heavier going,



TQA said:


> I single hand a 44 ft cutter I rarely have to reef the main or shake it out. The staysail stays up regardless and I can deal with a fair range of wind speeds by playing with the 120% roller furling genoa.


Your boat sounds a little unusual. Most true cutters won't balance properly with just a full mainsail and the staysail. I used the term 'true cutter' because in my lifetime the definition of a cutter rig has changed considerably. When I started sailing the definition of a cutter included two distinct attributes, 1) the mast was 50% or more aft of the center of the sail plan and 2) the boat had a bowsprit (originally one that could be reefed which we were taught is where the term cutter was thought to have come from). By that earlier definition, a sloop had its mast further forward than a cutter and could still have multiple headsails. If could either have a bowsprit or not. At some point around the 1970's I started hearing people use the term 'cutter' for any single masted boat with more than one headsail. In reality most of what people call a cutter today would have been called a multiple headsail sloop.

But semantics aside, true cutters behave differently than sloops (even sloops with multiple headsails) and have their own advantages and disadvantages. In the case of a true cutter the position of the mast so far aft, and with the staysail tacked to the stem, the sail area of the staysail was often similar to the sail area of a working jib on a fractional rig (albeit a lower aspect ratio and so less efficient in terms of drive forces relative to drag, heeling and leeway forces). But a true cutter was designed to be balanced with its yankee jib (another term which has changed from what used to be called the 'Head-staysail' to the current 'Yankee jib' around the time that the term 'Jib Staysail' became simply 'staysail'. A Yankee used to be a Head-stay-sail cut with a very high foot.)

As a result of the fact that the balance of the boat assumes that a major portion of its sail area is located very far forward in the forward edge of the yankee, when the yankee is taken in, cutters tend to develop heavy weather helms and so the mainsail generally needs to reefed if for not other reason than to simply help balance the helm. This leaves the boat quite short on sail area and so results in a dead zone with no good choice between too much sail area with the yankee set, or too much weather helm with the staysail and full mainsail and no yankee, or too little sail area with just a reefed mainsail and the staysail. This can be offset some by partially furling the yankee, but because yankees are generally cut larger and fuller to deal with the lighter air end of the wind range and are generally made of lighter cloth to maintain a decent flying shape in lighter going, and because furling sails can only be furled a small amount before having a pretty crummy flying shape, that option rarely bridges the gap between the full sail plan and just the staysail and reefed mainsail. Lastly because of the rig geometry, there are fewer options to depower the sails on a cutter as a way of extending the wind range of the standing sailplan.

In the case of the multiple headsail sloop the problem gets more complex and is more dependent on the design of the boat. Since the jib is the primary driver on masthead sloop and since almost all boats develop more weather helm speed increases, the first thing that is done on a masthead sloop (no matter how many headsails, is that the mainsail is reefed. If multiple headsails are being flown then the staysail is taken in. Reefing the mainsail and dousing the staysail would typically result in an similar accommodation to a change in windspeed that would be achieved by depowering a fractional rig.

It is at that point that a multiple headsail sloop begins to run out of good options. The genoa can be partially furled but its sail shape will be poor resulting in a larger heel angle, leeway and weather helm than would be ideal. Once the genoa is furled, the staysail on a multi-headsail sloop is much smaller and farther aft in the boat than on either a true cutter or a fractionally rigged sloop, and so the mainsail may need a second reef just to balance the helm, resulting in a more severe shortage of sail area in that range between a being able to carry the full sail plan and the right amount of wind for just the staysail and double reefed mainsail.

It would only be at that point in the wind range that a fractionally rigged sloop would need to take its first reef, and once that reef is taken it would still have a balanced helm and two sails that are properly shaped for the conditions.

And that is what makes a modern fractional rig a better cruising rig. Its also important to understand that when you look at sloop rigs on small working watercraft, and early cruising boats, their sail plans were generally proportioned in much the same manner as fractionally rigged sloop are today for many of the same reasons that we do it today.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Having only considerable experience with a fractional... I can attest to the fact that the rig is easy to reef (I use a Dutchman) and a smaller head sail more flexible for various wind speeds and reefs well... plus will sail OK with either main or head sail alone.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Can’t argue the point. But in the trades and offshore see fracs with reefed mains frequently. A flat sail will only get you so far. Also some times it’s nice to shorten the sail plan getting it out of higher wind speeds and with less effect on RM. Also most cruising is downwind where flattening sails doesn’t impact. This can be troubling when you are surfing or at risk to bury your bow in the wave ahead. Agree it’s a PIA to have more than two stays and working sails but some degree of redundancy is reassuring. Realize a modern ocean going frac is a different beast and if done right risk of failure is negligible but see too many production fracs where you could question the execution. I defer to those with greater experience but have been told high aspect fin keeled big main fracs have more trouble hoving too. Know under solent and main we forereach about a knot in 30k and slide about 1.5-2nm per hour to leeward. I know hoving too has fallen out of favor given it’s been shown to be much less safe than a jsd but still is convenient time to time.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

NCK said:


> I don't care about ocean crossing...
> 
> It seems like most of the advice and books are more geared to crossing oceans than harbor/anchorage hopping in comfort.


I get the impression from the above the OP is primarily interested in coastal cruising not passage making.

One rig that I personally like for single handing in a coastal/gunkholing type environment are variations on the Cat rig. It was mentioned earlier, but I think one of the nicest variations on the cat rig is the nonsuch. Cat rig with a wishbone boom. I have cruised in company with a nonsuch 26 on multiple occasions and the best word to describe it is "easy". Sure I know people will say but it doesnt point as high as a fractional sloop or it doesn't have as many sail plan options as a ketch etc, but the people who own them and sail them seem to love them.

There are other nice cat rigs out there including cat ketches. Likely not the best rigs for open ocean passage making, but I think theyre pretty nice for short handed coastal cruising.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

The OP isnt looking to poach coconuts in Kiribati.
Jeez guys....


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Arcb said:


> I get the impression from the above the OP is primarily interested in coastal cruising not passage making.
> 
> One rig that I personally like for single handing in a coastal/gunkholing type environment are variations on the Cat rig. It was mentioned earlier, but I think one of the nicest variations on the cat rig is the nonsuch. Cat rig with a wishbone boom. I have cruised in company with a nonsuch 26 on multiple occasions and the best word to describe it is "easy". Sure I know people will say but it doesnt point as high as a fractional sloop or it doesn't have as many sail plan options as a ketch etc, but the people who own them and sail them seem to love them.
> 
> There are other nice cat rigs out there including cat ketches. Likely not the best rigs for open ocean passage making, but I think theyre pretty nice for short handed coastal cruising.


I did a delivery of a Nonsuch 30 from Bermuda to Antigua. It sailed well, was roomy for its LOA and i have no complaints.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Fractional v cutter for Eastern Caribbean. 

Typical 60 mile day for me. I will have checked Windguru for likely wind speeds and directions. If I see 25 knots I tuck in the second reef on the main. 15 to 20 just the first reef. I will leave with the main and staysail up and play with the genoa to keep speed up. 

At the end of the island I roll the genoa away expecting to get some acceleration and gusts. This is especially nasty on the North end of St Vincent and bursts of 35 to 40 knots are common. I will usually bear off a bit and maybe depower the main a little. It only lasts for a few miles and soon I am back playing with the roller furler to keep the speed up.

Maybe once a year I have to put in an extra reef on passage. 

My boat was designed by Maurice De Clerc in Canada and is a 44 ft cutter with some RORC influence in the lines. It certainly balances nicely with a single reef and the staysail. The autopilot goes quiet for long periods when we get settled. 

If you sail in light wind conditions say 8 to 10 knots with full main up regularly then having a fractional rig with a bendy mast adjustable backstay and maybe even running backstays makes sense because you can play with the shape of the main.

I sail in the Eastern Caribbean where 15 to 25 is normal and 35 when the Christmas winds are blowing is common. In these conditions my cutter works for me.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

TQA said:


> Fractional v cutter for Eastern Caribbean.
> 
> Typical 60 mile day for me. I will have checked Windguru for likely wind speeds and directions. If I see 25 knots I tuck in the second reef on the main. 15 to 20 just the first reef. I will leave with the main and staysail up and play with the genoa to keep speed up.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting that information since it should be helpful to a reader of this this discussion to better quantify the differences in the rigs. I suggest that your description pretty much illustrates the typical manner that cutters shift gears to handle increasing wind speeds.

I also suggest that it might be helpful to compare the behavior of a fractional rigged sloop and how it shifts gears in those same range of conditions. By way of similar background provided by TQA, I sail on the Chesapeake, I tend to sail single-hand in an extremely broad range of wind speeds from almost no wind into winds into the mid 30 knot range and have sailed in much higher wind speeds. I sail almost year round, including in winter when there can be very high winds and the colder air is denser and so the impact of gusts that have smaller wind speed changes is greatly amplified.

In fariness to the discussion and by way of a caveat, my boat is considerably smaller and lighter for her length than TQA's cutter, and a larger boat would tend to have greater sail carrying capacity than a smaller boat. My boat was not designed to any racing rule and was solely designed as performance oriented cruiser so as a result might have more stability relative to drag than a RORC based design, but definitely would have a much larger SA/D than an RORC based design (i.e. SA/D=roughly 23 vs. RORC SA/D typically in the 15-18 range)

In any event, by way of comparison, with the true wind forward of the beam in winds from about 5 knots up to around 20 knots true, I sail with a full mainsail and an AP#3. If the true wind is forward of the beam, at 15 knots of true wind I begin pulling in more backstay tension, outhaul, and vang.

I typically tuck in a first reef at around 20 knots true and that is good up to the high 20 knot range. As winds approach 30 knots, if I was expecting this to last more than an hour or two, I might roll in the jib or put in a second reef. In reality I have never actually needed a second reef even though I have sailed this boat in winds that were well over 30 knots.

With the true wind aft of abeam, I carry the full main and AP#3 until around 25 knots and would only put in a first reef once the winds were consistently in that 25-30 knot range and I had a distance to go in those conditions. If I had a distance to go, or had to thread a needle of a channel, I might reef a little earlier since to carry that much sail in that wind range I would typically bear down in a gust and come back up once back in the ambient wind speed. Once reefed the boat is nicely balanced in those winds. In light air on deep reaches or down wind I often carry a spinnaker since fractional rigged spinnakers are smaller and so more easily handled, but I generally don't carry a spinnaker single-hand once the winds are approaching 20 knots true.

Jeff


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Had a Tayana 37. Once lost a Marion to Bermuda to a Nonsuch 36. Was surprised how well they do. In all fairness great majority of the race had no uphill work but still we lost to her.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

In higher wind speeds going downwind with a solent you have an interesting easily controllable option. Drop the main. Put out a pole. Put the genny on the pole and Solent on the other side. Roll in or out how much genny is safe for the wind. If it builds roll it up altogether. Then reef the Solent as needed. There’s no problem leaving the pole out until it gets less sporty. 
When by yourself it’s more important how easy it is to reduce sail then get sail out.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

TQA said:


> Before he buys anything he should at least look at the cabin layout on a Catalina 30. Much roomier than most 30 ft boats and still sails well especially in deep fin tall mast configuration.


Yes, that is exactly the boat I sailed, on a charter out of the Florida Keys last year. It was very comfortable, and sailed well. My first mate and I both thought that it was a boat that we could live on for fairly extended periods, if it was personally equipped to individual needs.

We sailed it one day in 18 to 20 knot winds, with two-thirds of the jib alone, because the reefing lines on the main where challenging to work with. We sailed close to the wind which put us breaking diagonally into the 3-foot waves. By pointing off the wind just slightly, I found a more comfortable angle to cut through the waves, with no appreciable loss of speed. The boat eased into a comfortable motion and sailed well.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Curious: how many people here, other than Jeff, actually have a backstay tensioner?

(not me)


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I have owned four keel boats in my lifetime, two of them with backstay adjusters, which I use routinely. I wish all my boats had them.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

zedboy said:


> Curious: how many people here, other than Jeff, actually have a backstay tensioner?
> 
> (not me)


Backstay tension is really only for racing boats. 
You can *almost* do the exact same thing with halyard adjustment.

In racing you are working hard to get the last .1 of a knot. That will win you races. Cruising you are not worried about the speed you are working hard to getting to the destination without breakages. (incl breaking crew!)

:grin


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

zedboy said:


> Curious: how many people here, other than Jeff, actually have a backstay tensioner?
> 
> (not me)


Shiva is fractional and I can tension back stay and bend the mast.... which flattens the main.
It's a simple 6:1 block and tackle and I only use it for pointing... and so I use it very infrequently.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

TQA said:


> At the end of the island I roll the genoa away expecting to get some acceleration and gusts. This is especially nasty on the North end of St Vincent and bursts of 35 to 40 knots are common. I will usually bear off a bit and maybe depower the main a little. It only lasts for a few miles and soon I am back playing with the roller furler to keep the speed up.
> 
> Maybe once a year I have to put in an extra reef on passage.


The Caribbean may have the wind from the "same" direction all year round but the challenges are local winds, currents and swell. 
Between each island are these wind compression zones as TQA describes. You can see the newbys and charter sailirs because they will reef in every gust tgerefir working their butts off in every inter island hop. The people comfortable will not reef but 'depower' I. E. Let the main luff a bit (not flog) fir the 15 minutes. Also the swell can pick up incredibly... But agsin only for a few minutes. Squalls come through every few hours - again only for 15 minutes.

If you reefed every tk e the conditions changed fir 15 minutes you would be Dead Man Walking at the end of the day.

How racing boats handle it in long races is beyond me - sail changes by the minute!

Caribbean is wonderful. :grin


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## slap (Mar 13, 2008)

zedboy said:


> Curious: how many people here, other than Jeff, actually have a backstay tensioner?
> 
> (not me)


I've got a backstay tensioner on my boat, and it gets used.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

zedboy said:


> Curious: how many people here, other than Jeff, actually have a backstay tensioner?
> 
> (not me)


Damn silly thing to have on a single handed cruising boat, ranks alongside running backstays and a bendy mast.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have a hydraulic backstay adjuster. It’s used nearly all the time. Although not as much effect as on a bendy frac rig even with a mast head rig it gets rid of headstay sag. You get a flatter jib/genny. It also does flatten the main some and seems to eliminate pumping without needing to set up a running backstay most of the time. 
Regardless of rig (except b&k) even for a cruiser a useful piece of kit.


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## Christian Williams (Jun 28, 2013)

*Size for single handing?*

Here are two videos of two boats on the same singlehanded route to Hawaii.

The first is a 32-footer, the second a 38-footer.

The larger boat is more 'stately' in a seaway, the sails of the smaller boat are easier to handle. In the end, "go with the boat you've got."


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Christian Williams, thanks for posting the videos. I plan to watch them right after I watch NASAs live streaming coverage of the landing of the Mars rover at around 1 PM central time today (Nov. 26, 2018).

https://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

TQA said:


> Damn silly thing to have on a single handed cruising boat, ranks alongside running backstays and a bendy mast.


That explains a lot and would certainly at least in part explain why your boat has such a narrow wind range for its sails.

Obviously, we have different approaches to sailing. While I absolutely agree that running backstays are not appropriate on a single-handed cruising boat, (which is one of my objections to cutter rigs that need runners opposing the staysail in heavier air), an easily adjustable backstay and a mast that can be bent a little seems like critical tools to me.

In my view of sailing, saying that a "bendable mast and an adjustable backstay does not belong on a single-handed cruising boat" (or at least on a fractional rig without in-mast furling) is just like saying that "a furlable genoa or a first reef does not belong on a single-handed cruising boat." I say that because properly used, using the full range of backstay adjustment results in the same reduction in heel, leeway, and weather helm as partially furling the genoa and putting in a first reef. In my current boat, the entire range of adjustment for the backstay menas pulling in roughly 6 feet of line, that does not need a winch, that is accessible from the helm, and its under a lot less load than either a reef line or the line for my furler.

Perhaps it would be helpful to someone reading this discussion, if you can explain why you think a bendable spar, or a backstay adjuster is not suited for a single-handed cruising boat since they have been the norm for quite for at least 2-3 decades now on well built distance cruisers.

Jeff


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## ariel49 (Nov 26, 2018)

Several sailers I have met have sailed long distances in Pearson Triton 28 footers, a very well built fiberglass boat. One, who showed me his boat when he stopped at my homeport of Gloucester, Mass., had created a metal fiddle with fore and aft as well as athwartship pieces "to keep the soup and coffee pot from launching off the stove". He sailed to Europe via the Azores. "What about food and water?" "Two cans of food or soup, and a half gallon of water per day times the number of days you think it will take to get where you are going, plus fifty percent of everything to cover emergencies" That's the minimalist route, I think


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

What Jeff said. Backstay tensioners on masthead rigs are used to tighten/tension the forestay and prevent the luff (foil) from sagging.

On my fractional rig which has a removable inner stay for a storm jib... and swept back spreaders the ONLY use for the back stay is to bend the mast. In fact the back stay does little to nothing to support the mast... the uppers lowers do all that as the spreaders are swept back. I DO use runners if I use the storm jib for the reasons that Jeff mentioned to counter the tension of the inner fore stay.

Bending the mast is easy peasy... with a 6:1 block and tackle. If I want I can take the line to a winch as well. Bending will pull the head back and add some curve into the off of the main which of course will flatten the sail allowing it to point higher and decrease weather helm. 

Adjusting the tension is no more difficult than trimming the genny. The sail plan is actually very sensible because the main is the driver, the genny is much easier to handle as it's smaller... and reefing the main can easily be done from the cockpit.

+++

Sailing downwind to Hawaii from the West coast will not involve the backstay tensioner of a fractional. Then you will want to pole out a couple of Gennies or run wing and wing perhaps.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I’d like to offer a completely different assessment. Not to take away from any of the above, just to take a fresh look at the matter from a different view point. Essentially the OP is asking about minimum length. I would prefer DISPLACEMENT but can deal with both. 

How much do you want a cold beer and some ice to tinkle in your sundowner? 

Our big boat (44’) has a nice ice box and solar and a wind generator. We have 4 GC batteries and they run down pretty well over night if it’s calm. So if you want ice you need a minimum of 4 GCS and enough solar/wind to charge it. So that a couple or 300 watts of solar and a decent wind gen. Otherwise you need a generator or need to run the engine or lay to a dock. 

Our small boat (33’/8 tons) has an ice box and 190 watts of solar. I have enough room for 4GCs and a wind gen but it’s getting tight on the stern, doable but tight. We also have a 2000 watt Honda for when needed. Now you are gonna have to carry an extra Jerry can of gas, sans oil. So I don’t have a refer because of the complexity and burden on that size boat. What would it do to a 27’ 4 ton boat? 

Now this is an 8 ton boat with deep bilges and 6’ of head room because I like to stand upright. The headroom comes from the displacement, we sit IN the water not ON it. Therefore we have reasonable headroom with reasonable freeboard. We took out the saloon table because it was feeling cramped and we can eat off our laps. 

We cook with kerosene for a lot of reasons but one of which relates to here is we can carry a lot of fuel in a small package, no cylinders and vented lockers and such. So that’s a space saver others don’t have. 

We have a real forepeak nice bunk fit for two if you don’t argue. We’ve lived in this small boat for 3 months at a time. The big boat longer. 

The point is that when you start to talk about LIVING on a boat for 6 months it’s a whole different game from sailing a boat. It’s all those little daily annoyances that start to eat at you, creature comforts can become important, you don’t want to be miserable. 

If you are confined to heavily regulated waters the holding tank size becomes a big deal. If sailing in relatively remote areas spare storage is an issue. 

Both boats are cutters, I can and do single hand each of them. The small boat is (33’ 8 tons) is easier to sail and the big boat (44’ 20 tons) is more comfortable in a blow. 

To each his own, it’s a personal choice. I would feel cramped and grumpy on a 27’er, or even a 4 ton 33’er. 

Hope this helps.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> Ya, ya, I know, the how big thing again. I am just curious. Those of you that have done it in smaller boats 26/27 feet. If you had it to do again and money was no object would you choose that small again.


No


> Or if money was no object would you choose a 30, 32, 35 footer.
> Guess what I'm getting at, would harbor hopping half the year be a lot more comfortable in a 32 footer than a 27 footer.


Yes
Did it in a Catalina 250, Catalina 270 and Capri 26, the Capri was the best sailer but an outboard meant no hot water, limited electrical, alcohol stove. The 270 had diesel, hot water, 2 burner propane, adequate electrical. Both of those were "adequate" but you spend a lot of time searching for ice to keep your beer cold.
I have a 32' boat now and it's pretty comfortable, nicer ride in snotty conditions, dodger to get out of the rain. etc
Sweet spot for me is 32 to 38


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