# Husband killed as he defends his wife from yacht robbers in St Lucia



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Once again violence sends terror through the cruiser's websites;
Husband gunned down as he defends his wife from yacht robbers in St Lucia: Couple attacked during year-long sailing trip to celebrate her 60th birthday | Mail Online
Very early and sketchy information at this time, but as we are in St. Lucia right now, it will be interesting to see how this government handles yet another horrific attack on yachties, in the Windward Islands..
Dozens on the various island cruiser's net websites are vowing never to go, or return to, St. Lucia. Already yacht traffic appears to be at less than 1/2 of last year, so this may be a death knell for many small island businesses that rely on the yachts for their livelihood.
I suppose this will create some long sailing trips, as so many were already afraid to visit SV&G, and now St. Lucia, on their way to Grenada.
Our condolences go out to Margaret Pratt and her family.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

More sad news from such an otherwise wonderful place in the world..


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Man that sucks. Condolences.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

truly terrible news. Nobody deserves to go that way


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

This is absolutely tragic but will continue  The average income in St Lucia is about 6k per year. Poor criminals see rich yachts as easy targets.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I seriously doubt these criminals rob tourists just to survive. No need to rationalize crime, especially that horrific.
What a sad ending to the cruise of their dreams.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Forced to stay an extra day and...



> Mr Innocent said yesterday: 'We do not know the full facts about this case yet. We are trying to ascertain what happened and then to get to the bottom of it.'


This saddens me... not sure if Innocent, is innocent


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

I was in St. Lucia five years ago for a Diving/Hyperbaric Medicine seminar. I never felt safe anywhere outside the hotel and I would never go back. The disconnect between abject poverty in the local population and superfluous wealth of cruisers and tourists was just too striking. I just felt like a target all the time and I am not an inexperienced traveler.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

titustiger27 said:


> Forced to stay an extra day and...
> 
> This saddens me... not sure if Innocent, is innocent


But we should presume him innocent until found otherwise, unless you have new info... so maybe crass humour is more witless than witty, okay? The good guys took out one of the bad guys- Kudos to Mr. Innocent's side.

RIP, Mr. Pratt.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

barefootnavigator said:


> This is absolutely tragic but will continue  The average income in St Lucia is about 6k per year. Poor criminals see rich yachts as easy targets.


OK, everybody, let's just get a few things straight here.
St Lucia is not the good old USA. 6k income, in a country where one doesn't pay income or property taxes, where medical care is free, where one doesn't own or need a vehicle (excellent and CHEAP public transportation; less that a US dollar from Rodney Bay to Castries), where fruit grows on the trees in one's yard, and food is very, very cheap (we got skinless, boneless chicken breasts last time we were in Vieux Fort for EC$5.00 a KILO; that's US$0.93 a pound!), is certainly NOT poverty level.
As we understand it at this time, they were not "Forced to stay an extra day and..." but the customs officer in Soufriere did not come to work (a family emergency or he was sick, etc. we don't know yet??) so they continued on to Vieux Fort hoping to check out there, possibly arriving too late to checkout?
The weather has been pretty calm, so it's also a possibility that these fellows were in fact smugglers from another island who thought they'd try their hand at robbery, again, we don't know yet.
As for being afraid to leave your hotel room in St. Lucia, this is not an inner city US city. The local population is extremely friendly and nonthreatening. Everybody says good day or good afternoon and is helpful and few of them, if any (we've never encountered any unfriendly islanders here) dislike visitors, whether on yachts, cruise ships or are staying at the many great hotel/resorts on the island. We frequently use local transport and travel to "the big city", Castries, with absolutely no thought that we might be in danger.
We should not condemn a whole island for an incident which is still very early in the investigative stages.
I've been coming to St Lucia since the late 70's and never heard of anything like this happening on this island. We love it here and this will not deter our returning. Just like the incident in Union Island, it is an isolated incident, unlikely to be repeated. St. Lucia relies almost entirely on tourism and the perpetrators will be caught and punished, without a doubt. Cross it off your itinerary if you wish, but you will be missing one of the friendliest and most interesting islands anywhere in the world; your loss.
BBC update; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25797968


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Tragic.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

capta said:


> OK, everybody, let's just get a few things straight here.
> ......................Cross it off your itinerary if you wish, but you will be missing one of the friendliest and most interesting islands anywhere in the world; your loss.
> BBC update; BBC News - St Lucia: Warwickshire man Roger Pratt murdered


Based on my experience with St. Lucia I'd say Capta has it about right.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

bljones said:


> But we should presume him innocent until found otherwise, unless you have new info... so maybe crass humour is more witless than witty, okay? The good guys took out one of the bad guys- Kudos to Mr. Innocent's side.
> 
> RIP, Mr. Pratt.


Yes.. it is sad.

Still find the name ironic, especially since they had planned to leave a day earlier. Which (and you are right) doesn't indite Innocent


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

What a useless loss. I hate it for his wife. What a horrible end to a dream cruise.

But, you can't pretend there aren't bad people out there that you will encounter, the same as hurricanes or a bad storm. All you can do is have a plan to deal with either one.

The only plan that is no good is to just hope neither one happens.


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

Thank you Capta 
It would be nice to have more facts even though the tragic outcome is done. So sorry for his wife.
Lou


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Wow Capta, this is so interesting, you should go back to all your posts on voyaging on 500 a month you paint a much different picture. At least somebody finally agrees that 6000 per year is more that enough to live on quite luxuriously. As far as this tragedy is concerned it just ******* sucks regardless of where it happened


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

Murder is murder... it doesn't matter if it happens on land while at home or on vacation or while out cruising. It is a tragedy! You just don't expect to have it happen to you or anyone you know especially in our community.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

other news
Briton Killed In St Lucia Was Defending Wife

BBC News - British man Roger Pratt killed in St Lucia attack

Ms. Pratt blog: Magnetic Attraction - Roger and Margaret Pratt


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

barefootnavigator said:


> Wow Capta, this is so interesting, you should go back to all your posts on voyaging on 500 a month you paint a much different picture. At least somebody finally agrees that 6000 per year is more that enough to live on quite luxuriously. As far as this tragedy is concerned it just ******* sucks regardless of where it happened


OK, another apples and oranges argument.
Did I actually say any West Indians live "luxuriously" on 6k a year? I just said they were not living in poverty.
I don't know too many residents, who live ashore in St. Lucia, that have sails, rigging, engines, dinghies or the myriad of other items one has on a cruising yacht to maintain and repair, do you? They certainly don't have to fork out the EC$70.00 or so a month to be there, nor do they need anchors, chain or dinghies for getting from the boat to the cheap transportation ashore.
Though chicken may be cheap in Vieux Fort, it certainly isn't quite as cheap in Rodney Bay, and spending a whole day on a bus, no matter how inexpensive, to get from Rodney Bay to Vieux Fort and back, to buy groceries, doesn't sound like fun to me (take a quick peek at a map it's a very long trip on some pretty poor roads). I also don't think the local residents are going to appreciate my tromping through their property and taking their fruit off their trees and veges from their gardens.
I do not eat like the West Indians often, as their meals are generally high caloric and fat filled. I enjoy things like mayonnaise and ice cream (EC$20.00 for a cup each for my girl and I, just yesterday).
Your idea of cruising seems more like existing, rather than living, to me, and woe be you if you actually have a serious problem with your boat you can't afford to fix. Don't forget, it was here in St. Lucia where the coffee you love to drink so much, while everyone else is filling their cruising kitty, was astronomically expensive.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While I won't throw the entire nation/culture in the trash heap, the fact remains that it is more dangerous than more civilized parts of the planet. I do not recall ever hearing of an occupied boarding, let alone a murder aboard on the New England coastline. Sure, I've heard of things being stolen, but not this kind of violence. When you travel to third world countries, you have to be more careful and conscious. It certainly doesn't mean they are badlands.

I feel terrible for this family and particularly his wife. The perpetrators should get some good biblical punishment. Eye for an eye and made an example of in front of all others.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I do not recall ever hearing of an occupied boarding, let alone a murder aboard on the New England coastline.


Cheshire, Connecticut, home invasion murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not a boat but a home invasion.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Reading their blog, seemed the husband had a premonition on New Year's-

After supper we all joined the crowds moving owards the beach and the fireworks at midnight. It was all very relaxed and friendly but *all of a sudden Henrik felt nervous that it could turn ugly. None of the others felt it - but we turned back *and saw the new year in with champagne and After Eight mints on the marina pontoon. What a great day!


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> While I won't throw the entire nation/culture in the trash heap, the fact remains that it is more dangerous than more civilized parts of the planet. I do not recall ever hearing of an occupied boarding, let alone a murder aboard on the New England coastline. Sure, I've heard of things being stolen, but not this kind of violence. When you travel to third world countries, you have to be more careful and conscious. It certainly doesn't mean they are badlands.
> 
> I feel terrible for this family and particularly his wife. The perpetrators should get some good biblical punishment. Eye for an eye and made an example of in front of all others.


Really? How about this happening in first world countries like the U.S.... in 1971 while waiting for the bus in New York's Manhattan in a well known street full of people I was stabbed and the gang wanted to kill me... they took all I had on me at the time with a knife to my throat... I fought them as best I could and the reason I was stabbed... otherwise they were trying to drag me into an alley to finish me off... I stumbled and walked to a fire station before they helped me and called the ambulance... I'm alive today because I knew there was more to life than having these scum finish my life forever... a 'crips black gang'... go figure!

This could happen anywhere in the world... no Caribbean Island or living in the U.S. is any safer! Vigilance and awareness of your surroundings is the only measure of safety... I feel for the Pratts and my condolences for their loss...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> While I won't throw the entire nation/culture in the trash heap, the fact remains that it is more dangerous than more civilized parts of the planet. I do not recall ever hearing of an occupied boarding, let alone a murder aboard on the New England coastline. Sure, I've heard of things being stolen, but not this kind of violence. When you travel to third world countries, you have to be more careful and conscious. It certainly doesn't mean they are badlands.
> I feel terrible for this family and particularly his wife. The perpetrators should get some good biblical punishment. Eye for an eye and made an example of in front of all others.


While operating a schooner on the waterfront of Charleston, SC, I felt threatened enough for my college age crew members to have a CWP and carry a weapon after dark, escorting them to their vehicles. I've never felt that threatened in the West Indies, except St. Thomas, where I won't venture far from the dinghy dock, after dark.
I do feel that most of these incidences are a direct result of the local constabularies not perusing the perpetrators of the lesser crimes like dinghy theft and yacht burglaries, perhaps resulting in a feeling that it is OK to victimize us. Stealing my dink is just like stealing a car ashore, but the penalty for dinghy theft is only a slap on the wrist, while auto theft is a major crime. After all, in such small communities, it is unbelievable that most criminals are unknown to the local authorities, and it should be a simple thing to put the fear of serious retribution into the criminal community, thereby stopping these crimes completely.
The last time I remember a murder of a yachtie by a local in the Antilles, was in the late 70's or early 80's in the BVI. The perpetrator was hanged publicly on Tortola, and I don't think there has been another murder of a yachtie there since.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

capta said:


> While operating a schooner on the waterfront of Charleston, SC, I felt threatened enough for my college age crew members to have a CWP and carry a weapon after dark, escorting them to their vehicles. I've never felt that threatened in the West Indies, except St. Thomas, where I won't venture far from the dinghy dock, after dark.
> *I do feel that most of these incidences are a direct result of the local constabularies not perusing the perpetrators of the lesser crimes like dinghy theft and yacht burglaries, perhaps resulting in a feeling that it is OK to victimize us.* Stealing my dink is just like stealing a car ashore, but the penalty for dinghy theft is only a slap on the wrist, while auto theft is a major crime. After all, in such small communities, it is unbelievable that most criminals are unknown to the local authorities, and it should be a simple thing to put the fear of serious retribution into the criminal community, thereby stopping these crimes completely.
> The last time I remember a murder of a yachtie by a local in the Antilles, was in the late 70's or early 80's in the BVI. The perpetrator was hanged publicly on Tortola, and I don't think there has been another murder of a yachtie there since.


I think this is known as broken window syndrome.. the more you allow, the more problems you have.

It comes from if you let abandon houses in a neighborhood get their windows broken, the more things happen, as you point out, because the bad guys feel nothing will happen to them


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Folks, I didn't say there way no violence in New England. I said I've never heard of a violent boarding along the New England coast.


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## timtim (Dec 16, 2012)

your right, anywhere we travel, something bad could happen. a few years back, my girlfriend was robbed at gun point in front of a bank, middle of the day and the state patrol station just down the street. we all must be careful and watch out for each other while enjoying life.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Folks please keep in mind this is in General Discussion, I've removed a post linking to gun death tallies in the US.

Let's keep this thread in support of the surviving family members and the senselessness of it all, and not let it devolve into another gun discussion, which would put it ultimately into PRWG.

Thanks
Ron


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Best I could research, St. Lucia has approx 7,000 crimes per 100,000 residents per year, about 3,000 of which are violent (murder, assault, kidnapping, etc). The US has approx 3,000 crimes per 100,000 residents, about 400 of which are violent.

This is a quote from the United Nations report on Crime, Violence, and Development: Trends, Costs, and Policy Options in the Caribbean, published in 2007.

www.unodc.org/pdf/research/Cr_and_Vio_Car_E.pdf



> Murder rates in the Caribbean-at 30 per 100,000 population annually-are higher than or any other region of the world and have risen in recent years for many of the region's countries. Assault rates, at least based on assaults reported to police, are also significantly above the world average.


I'm not trying to dump on the Caribbean, but it is more dangerous than many other parts of the world. You can certainly visit without issue, but one must be careful.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Best I could research, St. Lucia has approx 7,000 crimes per 100,000 residents per year, about 3,000 of which are violent (murder, assault, kidnapping, etc). The US has approx 3,000 crimes per 100,000 residents, about 400 of which are violent.
> 
> This is a quote from the United Nations report on Crime, Violence, and Development: Trends, Costs, and Policy Options in the Caribbean, published in 2007.
> 
> ...


Did you see a definition of "Caribbean" in there anywhere? Also, I'd like to see it broken down into resident/resident crime vs visitor/resident crime before I got very excited by those numbers. For instance, Trinidad reportedly had 19 murders in the first week of this year, but they were all resident/resident and did not involve visitors in any way. Astronomical numbers for sure, but of little relevance to cruisers.
Not arguing, just asking.
UPDATE; From Guardian Media, Trinidad;
"THERE has been no pause to the homicides, despite the appeals and warnings of police and politicians, with more killings overnight taking the nation's murder rate to 22 in nine days." That's the first 9 days of 2014! Still nothing to do with visitors at all. Draw your own conclusions as to the relevance of the statistics above.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capta said:


> Did you see a definition of "Caribbean" in there anywhere? Also, I'd like to see it broken down into resident/resident crime vs visitor/resident crime before I got very excited by those numbers. For instance, Trinidad reportedly had 19 murders in the first week of this year, but they were all resident/resident and did not involve visitors in any way. Astronomical numbers for sure, but of little relevance to cruisers.
> Not arguing, just asking.


I didn't see an exact definition, but interpret this comment to includes its entirety.



> Wedged between the world's source of cocaine to the south and its primary consumer markets to the north, the Caribbean is the transit point for a torrent of narcotics, with a street value that exceeds the value of the entire legal economy.


Certainly, St. Lucia is included:



> _emphasis added_......Shorter time series on homicide rates are available for the Dominican Republic, *St. Lucia*, and Trinidad and Tobago (see Figure 1.8). All three countries show rapidly rising rates over the 1999-2005 period. In the Dominican Republic, the homicide rate almost doubled, from 14 to 27 per 100,000. *In St. Lucia, the rate more than doubled*, from 9 to 20, and in Trinidad and Tobago the rate more than quadrupled, from 7 to 30 per 100,000.


By comparison, the homicide rate in the US, per 100,000, is under 5.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

guitarguy56 said:


> Really? How about this happening in first world countries like the U.S.... in *1971* while waiting for the bus in New York's Manhattan in a well known street full of people I was stabbed and the gang wanted to kill me... they took all I had on me at the time with a knife to my throat... I fought them as best I could and the reason I was stabbed... otherwise they were trying to drag me into an alley to finish me off... I stumbled and walked to a fire station before they helped me and called the ambulance... I'm alive today because I knew there was more to life than having these scum finish my life forever... a '*crips black gang*'... go figure!
> 
> This could happen anywhere in the world... no Caribbean Island or living in the U.S. is any safer! Vigilance and awareness of your surroundings is the only measure of safety...


Not to rain on your scared white guy parade, but...
Crips - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No crips in New York.... but hey, I'm sure what happened in 1971 in New York is very relevant to an event in St. Lucia in 2014 because there are blacks in both countries. Go figure.

The fact that you had to go back 45 years for a memory to add to this party tells me that you actually are pretty safe, aren't you?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Back in the 70s and 80s, people were killed in the Bahamas for having accidentally stumbled upon drug traffickers who weren't going to leave a witness. 

I'm sure the homicide rates in the Caribbean favor residents, as residents must outnumber visitors by some multiple. 

The issue is whether there is violent crime in some abundance that one should be careful where they wander alone or go at night or stumble upon in seclusion. 

All manageable in my experience, but not without risk. Violent boardings of your sailboat are more difficult to manage.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capta said:


> Did you see a definition of "Caribbean" in there anywhere? Also, I'd like to see it broken down into resident/resident crime vs visitor/resident crime before I got very excited by those numbers. For instance, Trinidad reportedly had 19 murders in the first week of this year, but they were all resident/resident and did not involve visitors in any way. Astronomical numbers for sure, but of little relevance to cruisers.
> Not arguing, just asking.


Noonsite has been producing annual reports of piracy, theft, and attacks on cruising sailors since 2006...

Even at a glance, it is obvious that the _OVERWHELMING_ percentage of these incidents worldwide have taken place within the Caribbean Basin... Anyone suggesting that these types of incidents are just as likely to occur "anywhere", must be dreaming 

http://www.noonsite.com/General/Piracy


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I cant find anything to indicate a gun was used in this murder.

Can someone give me a verifiable source? All the police have said no gun was used.

If no gun was used then it is a much more defendable situation just by locking the companionway at night, for starters.

This killing happened near midnight in a bay devoid of other cruisers and close to a town. Red flag indicators to many cruisers.










Air flows through, so can sprays, flares, but keeps people out. This is an armoured door, not one you can kick in.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Noonsite has been producing annual reports of piracy, theft, and attacks on cruising sailors since 2006...
> 
> Even at a glance, it is obvious that the _OVERWHELMING_ percentage of these incidents worldwide have taken place within the Caribbean Basin... Anyone suggesting that these types of incidents are just as likely to occur "anywhere", must be dreaming
> 
> http://www.noonsite.com/General/Piracy


I would also imagine that the "OVERWHELMING percentage" of sail boats are also in the Caribbean.
I had a friend (Explorer) boarded by "pirates" a couple of months ago, on his way to Venezuela from Trinidad. Now quite honestly, I'm a pretty seasoned traveler, having visited such places as the Sudan, Saudi and SE Asia under sail, but I'd no more head for or sail near Venezuela, than I would pull in to a port in Somalia, right now.
But the Eastern Caribbean? Again it's a personal choice, but as I mentioned before, I feel safer on every island down here (other than St. T.) than I did in Charleston, SC leaving work in the early evening.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capta said:


> I would also imagine that the "OVERWHELMING percentage" of sail boats are also in the Caribbean.


Last time I checked, there were plenty of sail boats in places like the Med, the Baltic, The Chesapeake/LIS/New England, or New Zealand, as well... And yet, somehow the stats don't seem to indicate a similar frequency of sailors being the targets of violent crime...

Folks are free to believe what they want to believe, but the numbers certainly appear to indicate that - in a very general geographical sense - the closer one's proximity is to cruising grounds that lie in the Tropics, the greater the risk is to encountering this sort of situation... Virtually all acts of 'Piracy' - whether directed against yachties, or merchant shipping - occur between the Tropics of Cancer, and Capricorn...


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

bljones said:


> Not to rain on your scared white guy parade, but...
> Crips - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> No crips in New York.... but hey, I'm sure what happened in 1971 in New York is very relevant to an event in St. Lucia in 2014 because there are blacks in both countries. Go figure.
> 
> The fact that you had to go back 45 years for a memory to add to this party tells me that you actually are pretty safe, aren't you?


The Crips were started in California, but be sure there are members in most states. I had a fairly violent encounter with one in New Orleans in 1994, so I'm pretty sure about that.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

but 1971 was a different world, and yeah, by 94 the California gangs had penetrated pretty deep into the midwest , east and the south... but not New York in 1971. http://www.corrections.com/news/article/22428-bloods-more-gang-knowledge


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Folks are free to believe what they want to believe, but the numbers certainly appear to indicate that - in a very general geographical sense - the closer one's proximity is to cruising grounds that lie in the Tropics
> ]


So, following your thinking, since the chance of dying in an automobile incident is 4 times more likely than murder and non negligent manslaughter in the US, you just are not going to get in another vehicle ever again? That's what "the numbers" say.
By these "numbers" of yours, you are going to buy a nice 40ish cruising boat and not sail beyond the north east or leave the coastal US because, to the best of your knowledge, there has never been a violent boarding there?
I guess you could remain on your couch for the rest of your life, but then you might become obese and die from a heart condition or stroke. I imagine there are "the numbers" for this one too, somewhere.
I'm sorry, I just can't let "the numbers" dictate how I live my life, where I sail, or terrify me to the point that I will regret all the things I didn't do, when I die.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

One begins to lose a debate, when they begin to exaggerate the other party's point. I don't think Jon said he wouldn't, or others shouldn't, ever sail to the Caribbean.

One should certainly be careful driving a car too and not dismiss the odds of getting in an accident.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

FWIW, we have friends that winter in the Caribbean, and have done so for the past 10/11 years. They keep the boat south (Carriacou) in summer, then go north to Antigua, hang out there, Guadeloupe, Barbuda, for the most part before a lazy meander south to put the boat to bed around Easter.

On all occasions we've sailed with them in those areas, they were very careful where we stopped in St Lucia & St Vincent, Both these islands they deem less safe than others.

They were, of course, quite shocked by the Union Island incident earlier. btw they too are Brits, and work hard to respect and get along with locals wherever they go.


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## Patient (Jan 7, 2009)

Really sad news. =( Every account I have read of the Couple was that they were extremely safety conscious and had awareness of their surroundings. What a horrible tragedy.

St. Lucia seems to really be escalating in terms of crime. Weren't there a lot of high profile robberies last year alone. Kidnappings, bank robberies in broad daylight and the robbery of all of those cruise ship passengers at gun point that ended in a shootout?

Won't stop me from visiting the Windwards, but definitely is worrisome.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

This is why I have always wanted to go to the South Pacific and not the Caribbean.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

bljones said:


> Not to rain on your scared white guy parade, but...
> Crips - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> No crips in New York.... but hey, I'm sure what happened in 1971 in New York is very relevant to an event in St. Lucia in 2014 because there are blacks in both countries. Go figure.
> 
> The fact that you had to go back 45 years for a memory to add to this party tells me that you actually are pretty safe, aren't you?


Ya know BJ... your sarcasm goes a long way on these boards...

Yes it was 1971 and the crime fits then as it does now.. the only reason I'm safer now is I don't venture into unhealthy, criminal, or seedy places whether here in the US or the Carribbean. I surely don't atribute it to law enforcement!

Regarding the 'black crips gang'... yeah your right for posterity so I may post here and in the future what I should have done to be PC was I should have asked the gang to stop the assault and asked them if they were 'Crips'.... this way you and others don't have to berate me and add links to crips gangs, etc... after all they were wearing the red bandana scarfs over their head... how would I now and why would I care? Why throw a crowbar into my story? Think it's a lie or made up story? If you had nothing to say nice or constructive STFUP!!!


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

But Brians other points, that this isn't relevant, and the fact that its 40+ years ago and perhaps some of the details have escaped you.... all of this seems to be true.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Sal Paradise said:


> But Brians other points, that this isn't relevant, and the fact that its 40+ years ago and perhaps some of the details have escaped you.... all of this seems to be true.


Have either of you been a victim of crime? Have any of you felt as if your life was going to end in an instant from a criminal assault? I assure you the memory is a vivid now as it was then... the details have surely not escape me and I'm sure it's the same for other victims of violent crime.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

guitarguy56 said:


> Have either of you been a victim of crime? Have any of you felt as if your life was going to end in an instant from a criminal assault? I assure you the memory is a vivid now as it was then... the details have surely not escape me and I'm sure it's the same for other victims of violent crime.


It would be hard for me not to remember my Crip encounter. Especially with the year long internal affairs investigation that resulted from it.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capta said:


> So, following your thinking, since the chance of dying in an automobile incident is 4 times more likely than murder and non negligent manslaughter in the US, you just are not going to get in another vehicle ever again? That's what "the numbers" say.
> By these "numbers" of yours, you are going to buy a nice 40ish cruising boat and not sail beyond the north east or leave the coastal US because, to the best of your knowledge, there has never been a violent boarding there?
> I guess you could remain on your couch for the rest of your life, but then you might become obese and die from a heart condition or stroke. I imagine there are "the numbers" for this one too, somewhere.
> I'm sorry, I just can't let "the numbers" dictate how I live my life, where I sail, or terrify me to the point that I will regret all the things I didn't do, when I die.


Nope, I'm not saying that at all, and I'm baffled how anyone would gather that from what I've written...

I'm simply pointing out the reality that these type of incidents are far more likely to occur in certain parts of the world, than others. And, for those who are truly concerned about minimizing their exposure to such risk, it can be mitigated to some extent by the avoidance of such areas...

Of course, the number of such incidents, and the likelihood of a cruising sailor becoming a victim of violent crime in the Eastern Caribbean, is still extremely small, probably on the order of the probability of hitting a shipping container when sailing offshore...

And, no, that's not a high enough risk to keep me planted on my couch forever, either...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

guitarguy56 said:


> Ya know BJ... your sarcasm goes a long way on these boards...
> 
> Yes it was 1971 and the crime fits then as it does now.. the only reason I'm safer now is I don't venture into unhealthy, criminal, or seedy places whether here in the US or the Carribbean. I surely don't atribute it to law enforcement!
> 
> Regarding the 'black crips gang'... yeah your right for posterity so I may post here and in the future what I should have done to be PC was I should have asked the gang to stop the assault and asked them if they were 'Crips'.... this way you and others don't have to berate me and add links to crips gangs, etc... after all they were wearing the red bandana scarfs over their head... how would I now and why would I care? Why throw a crowbar into my story? Think it's a lie or made up story? If you had nothing to say nice or constructive STFUP!!!


 I understand why you got your ass kicked.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

guitarguy56 said:


> Have either of you been a victim of crime? Have any of you felt as if your life was going to end in an instant from a criminal assault? I assure you the memory is a vivid now as it was then... the details have surely not escape me and I'm sure it's the same for other victims of violent crime.


This thread is not about you or me, or our feelings and memories. It's about sailors in St. Lucia. Can you understand that simple point?


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Back in the 70s and 80s, people were killed in the Bahamas for having accidentally stumbled upon drug traffickers who weren't going to leave a witness.
> 
> I'm sure the homicide rates in the Caribbean favor residents, as residents must outnumber visitors by some multiple.
> 
> ...


solid points all the way through until that last bit
- our boats are the only place you have in that part of the world where you get to set the conditions for a "successful" outcome- I assure you any risk or threat is far more easily addressed on your home court than their own...

reality is you operate at a higher threat level in the third world than you do in the USA (overall- city by city and neighborhood by neighborhood breakdowns could belie the underlying truth). the more signifigant the black market, or the more black market through traffic in a locale- the higher the threat. The more you stand out as different from the local populace the higher the threat. the more you stand out because possesion of assets that have value (and this could be financial value or "usefulness" either one) the higher the threat. The more relaxed your posture, the softer a target you appear, the higher the threat....

and so on. All that really means though is that 
If cruisers view the human threat with the level of seriousness and the same level of attention to detail that they give the weather - there are very few if any places that are unsuitable or too unsafe to cruise.

i know i have switched tenses and everything else several times in this post, I'm sorry, I'm feeling to scatterbrained to deal with it currently.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> ...probably on the order of the probability of hitting a shipping container when sailing offshore...
> 
> And, no, that's not a high enough risk to keep me planted on my couch forever, either...


hahaha. encapsulated keel, so no keel bolts. no worry about being attacked by pirates, regardless the locale.

that pretty much leaves me only shipping containers to obsess about during overnight passages. or maybe having a whale breach under me.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

c. breeze said:


> solid points all the way through until that last bit
> - our boats are the only place you have in that part of the world where you get to set the conditions for a "successful" outcome- I assure you any risk or threat is far more easily addressed on your home court than their own...
> 
> reality is you operate at a higher threat level in the third world than you do in the USA (overall- city by city and neighborhood by neighborhood breakdowns could belie the underlying truth). the more signifigant the black market, or the more black market through traffic in a locale- the higher the threat. The more you stand out as different from the local populace the higher the threat. the more you stand out because possesion of assets that have value (and this could be financial value or "usefulness" either one) the higher the threat. The more relaxed your posture, the softer a target you appear, the higher the threat....
> ...


And, it's not just the people. Think about how much more disease you are exposed to. There are a lot of things that can go wrong when you leave the den and lounge chair. I guess that's what makes it an adventure.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

bljones said:


> I understand why you got your ass kicked.


Again... the wise ass cracks!... I was 15 at the time... but I survived and faught them off... You would be dead if it was you in my shoes!


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

hahaha 


hand sanitizer kills more westerners in africa than anything else. gotta let the immune system have somethin gto chew on from time to time... or else.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

guitarguy56 said:


> Again... the wise ass cracks!... I was 15 at the time... but I survived and faught them off... You would be dead if it was you in my shoes!


the sad fact is that as a canadian, I'm pretty sure this poor sap would be at an absolute loss if confronted by armed thugs bent on doing him harm. eastern candians are the most effete people I have ever encountered. god save the queen pass the tea and putine.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

FWIW here is the Police/Crime section of St Lucia News Online.

St. Lucia News Online | Archive for Crime/Police

Not passing judgement but a little scary. My wife and I honeymooned in St. Lucia 21 years ago and loved it. We hope to sail there in the next couple of years. We will certainly be extremely careful.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

c. breeze said:


> the sad fact is that as a canadian, I'm pretty sure this poor sap would be at an absolute loss if confronted by armed thugs bent on doing him harm. eastern candians are the most effete people I have ever encountered. god save the queen pass the tea and putine.


Funny you should say that tough guy! I'm in Montreal right now... been here since last August... living in Ville St. Laurant... ya know Bois Franc to be exact... I surely don't see any tough guys here... wannabes but have yet to see the tough guys you are bent on describing... maybe... just maybe... I avoid the trash areas of Montreal!


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

kellysails said:


> FWIW here is the Police/Crime section of St Lucia News Online.
> 
> St. Lucia News Online | Archive for Crime/Police
> 
> Not passing judgement but a little scary. My wife and I honeymooned in St. Lucia 21 years ago and loved it. We hope to sail there in the next couple of years. We will certainly be extremely careful.


That crime report is very interesting. Sounds like they have some problems in St. Lucia right now.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

On a pragmatic basis what can you do to decrease risk?
At home -non issue for most as home invasion would likely result in perps leaving feet first but underway risk/benefiit and hassle level would not seem to justify replicating the 12g under the bed. or 1911 nearby. Bug spray of questionable effectiveness. Sure lock companionway ( ?and hatches in the heat) ?Machete.?Spear gun. ?other

When cruising to most we are viewed as "Masters of the Universe". Truly ignorant of the local society and often unable to judge what's safe or not.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

without getting into where to anchor and where not to, what to look for and what not to- becasue we all have our own sixth sense and comfort zones- and accepting that avoidance trumps "winning" a confrontation- the following are fundamental.
A) being able to secure your boat in your absence... your chances are not good if you come home to assailants lying in wait
and 
B) being able to secure your boat while aboard. 

C) IT is important that the boat APPEAR secure. IF it looks good, it is good in this case. I want a possible intruder to be able to decline my boat at a glance. THis means not having anything loose in the cockpit, dangling from lifelines etc.

If your guy sees a shirt he likes, and then realizing the dhink is unsecured while putting it on has time to notice that you security grate isn't "actually" a formidable barrier as he's tying the dinghy painter to the stern of his boat, and what was just gonna be a nice new shirt that he really freaking needs and likely won't be missed has turned into a pretty decent haul really quick, and maybe its worth taking a peak below...


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I really think the same things that keep you safe at home will work on a boat.

I don't know any intruder who will stay in a home or business when there is a loud, ear piercing alarm and strobe lights visible outside, going off.

I would imagine that would run most intruders off of boats, too, except in very isolated places.

But, I'm retired law enforcement and one thing I have seen over and over again is that some people are viewed as easy prey, and some people are viewed as not being easy prey, and I'm not sure there is a lot you can do to change how you are viewed by criminals. It's the accumulation of a lifetime of experience, for both victim and perpetrator.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

c. breeze said:


> the sad fact is that as a canadian, I'm pretty sure this poor sap would be at an absolute loss if confronted by armed thugs bent on doing him harm. eastern candians are the most effete people I have ever encountered. god save the queen pass the tea and putine.


Sad fact is that as an anonymous poster, with no sig, living in 'transient," you don't really have the standing to question anyone else's courage, do you?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

guitarguy56 said:


> Again... the wise ass cracks!... I was 15 at the time... but I survived and faught them off... You would be dead if it was you in my shoes!


yes i would, because statistically it is amazing that someone both as thin-skinned and as offensive as you has survived this long. Usually angry and thin-skinned results in a Darwin Award, and someone else holding your beer. So you are correct, if i was in your shoes, i would likely be thin-skinned, angry, and dead, and probably wearing shoes that close with velcro. You sir, by continuing to breathe and complain, are truly an anomaly.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Group9 said:


> I really think the same things that keep you safe at home will work on a boat.
> 
> I don't know any intruder who will stay in a home or business when there is a loud, ear piercing alarm and strobe lights visible outside, going off.
> 
> ...


that's some gospel.

back in AK we say- you don't have to be faster than the bear, just faster than your buddy.

the best deterent (sp) is a more appealing target nearby.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

bljones said:


> Sad fact is that as an anonymous poster, with no sig, living in 'transient," you don't really have the standing to question anyone else's courage, do you?


does it really make you sad? I don't have anything to prove- so I'm not concerned with whether or not you find me credible in this venue, no local, and no sig, and I'm not sure how yours lend you credibilty? Either way it doesn't matter- we both ended up where we are, with respective lifetimes of experiences with which to back up our notions- for what thats worth on the internet...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

c. breeze said:


> does it really make you sad? I don't have anything to prove- so I'm not concerned with whether or not you find me credible in this venue, no local, and no sig, and I'm not sure how yours lend you credibilty?


Apparently you need to have the dots connected. If one does not have the courage to list one's location, can one really challenge the courage of another?

It is not, and never has been a credibility question. it is quickly becoming a comprehension question, however. Having to explain simple concepts does indeed make me sad.

We are getting quite badly off topic here, and you have made some good points that are on topic.

Readers, I apologize on behalf of myself, and this anonymous poster, for this minor hijack.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

anonymous and barely literate, at that...


I suppose I could update my profile as I move about, but its a bit lower on my list of priorities than say... going fishing? 



either way- courageous, cowardly, wise, or paranoid- dispensing personal information about myself needlessly on the internet seems foolhardy- especially given the topic of personal security. Information is power, you should be discriminant in what you offer in a public profile, especially re social media etc, blah blah blah. just becasue its all availbale to hacker's etc- doesn't mean I need to offer up any piece of the puzzle to make things easier... 

point is- in the context of the ACTUAL DISCUSSION- not the side bar, security as a mindset is first and foremost characterized by vigilance- do not trivialize the message you and your vessel send out- understand that everytime another person can see you, you are communicating clearly-and evaluate yourself and your vessel honestly and accordingly- or accept unecesary compromises in your security situation


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Just read this on the BBC news



> A British man who was murdered off the Caribbean island of St Lucia was bludgeoned and drowned, a post-mortem examination has shown.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

During a meeting of cruisers and local officials in Grenada, after the Union Island incident, several ideas were put forth for defense. Obviously, motion sensing systems suitable for a boat and 12 volt DC, could be a good deterrent. But by far the best idea of the day was to use a fire extinguisher as a non-lethal repellant.
Should we have uninvited guests in the middle of the night, we will first turn on our spreader lights, hoping that that will be an ample deterrent. After that, there are other options, but we believe the fire extinguisher would be a good second option.
Please take note; the local constabulary might be a bit miffed if one were to use a firearm that should have been declared AND turned in upon arrival, on a local resident, no matter his intent.


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## rhr1956 (Dec 18, 2010)

capta said:


> During a meeting of cruisers and local officials in Grenada, after the Union Island incident, several ideas were put forth for defense. Obviously, motion sensing systems suitable for a boat and 12 volt DC, could be a good deterrent. But by far the best idea of the day was to use a fire extinguisher as a non-lethal repellant.
> Should we have uninvited guests in the middle of the night, we will first turn on our spreader lights, hoping that that will be an ample deterrent. After that, there are other options, but we believe the fire extinguisher would be a good second option.
> Please take note; the local constabulary might be a bit miffed if one were to use a firearm that should have been declared AND turned in upon arrival, on a local resident, no matter his intent.


The fire extinguisher might be a good choice...

"A great Self Defense weapon is a Fire Extinguisher. It can be used, anywhere! The 5 Lb. unit by Kidde can shoot out white powder over 15 feet on a 10" Target pattern. You can carry one in your car, on a front seat or stuck next to it, it is 50 State Legal. The powder will incapacitate an attacker by making him , unable to breath , see or even hear anything."

Of course if the attacker is on crack, he will jump in the water, wash the stuff off, climb back on your boat and beat you to death with your empty fire extinguisher!


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

rhr1956 said:


> Of course if the attacker is on crack, he will jump in the water, wash the stuff off, climb back on your boat and beat you to death with your empty fire extinguisher!


At least it gives one a few minutes to ponder the next line of defense. Not being at all familiar, would someone on crack actually have the smarts to think of that?
We also have pretty high free board and no inviting "back porch".


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Anyone have any actual experience fending off an aggressive attack aboard their vessel?


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

Minnewaska said:


> Anyone have any actual experience fending off an aggressive attack aboard their vessel?


Ahhh come on, Minne. You're spoiling the fun by trying to put some real substance in the discussion. Shame on you!


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

In my opinion there is a big difference between crime on the street vs on a cruiser. The biggest are most crimes against cruisers on their yachts, are calculated, deliberate and a first degree crime. Not random. It is this mind set for me that is most disturbing and hard to defend against. We can try to deter all we want but from most reports the criminals want what you have and come prepare to take it. We are easy prey in their minds; senior in age, defenseless (most know we do not carry a weapon due to the difficulty of carriage), boat are not all that secure to begin with that a few tools won't disable, and in some cases no law enforcement to deter their activities.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Melrna said:


> most crimes against cruisers on their yachts, are calculated, deliberate and a first degree crime. Not random.


I don't agree at all with this. Most crimes against cruisers are committed by opportunists seeing an unlocked dinghy or something lying around on a deck. I think there are very few "calculated, deliberate and first degree" crimes such as the St. Lucia case. They are so rare in fact that every time there is one of these crimes it's big news on every sailing forum and the subject of endless agonizing and debate.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

rhr1956 said:


> The fire extinguisher might be a good choice...
> 
> "A great Self Defense weapon is a Fire Extinguisher. It can be used, anywhere! The 5 Lb. unit by Kidde can shoot out white powder over 15 feet on a 10" Target pattern. You can carry one in your car, on a front seat or stuck next to it, it is 50 State Legal. The powder will incapacitate an attacker by making him , unable to breath , see or even hear anything."
> 
> Of course if the attacker is on crack, he will jump in the water, wash the stuff off, climb back on your boat and beat you to death with your empty fire extinguisher!


We used to use fire extinguishers on vicious dogs, when we were serving a warrant and knew there would be one present. It worked when you got the thing in action quick enough. It always made a hell of a mess though and we almost always had to evacuate the place after we had secured it for 30 minutes or so to let all of the extinguisher chemical settle out of the air.

A lot less paperwork than shooting the dogs though. Although we still had to shoot some, even after shooting them with fire extinguishers, mostly because we didn't really hit them very well with the stuff.

But, when everything went right, it even scared the pit bulls. It's just something they are not expecting and that they have no instinctual response on how to deal with.

On a boat, it would sure be worth trying.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Melrna said:


> In my opinion there is a big difference between crime on the street vs on a cruiser. The biggest are most crimes against cruisers on their yachts, are calculated, deliberate and a first degree crime. Not random. It is this mind set for me that is most disturbing and hard to defend against. We can try to deter all we want but from most reports the criminals want what you have and come prepare to take it. We are easy prey in their minds; senior in age, defenseless (most know we do not carry a weapon due to the difficulty of carriage), boat are not all that secure to begin with that a few tools won't disable, and in some cases no law enforcement to deter their activities.


You're right. There is also a big difference between the criminal who comes on to your boat, thinking you are gone, and the one who comes onto your boat, knowing you are there.

The first one will be scared away, just by finding out you are home. The second one already knows that and is not going to be scared away by that. Only two things are going to scare him away:
1. Fear of being caught.
2. Fear of being hurt.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Group9 said:


> We used to use fire extinguishers on vicious dogs, when we were serving a warrant and knew there would be one present. It worked when you got the thing in action quick enough. It always made a hell of a mess though and we almost always had to evacuate the place after we had secured it for 30 minutes or so to let all of the extinguisher chemical settle out of the air.
> 
> A lot less paperwork than shooting the dogs though. Although we still had to shoot some, even after shooting them with fire extinguishers, mostly because we didn't really hit them very well with the stuff.
> 
> ...


Another point to consider- why is the assumption that the criminal will use the empty fire extinguisher against the yachtie? It would be a foolhardy individual who would spray a would be attacker with the thing, and then not press the advantage and begin to use the canister to further subdue to attacker until the threat is eliminated. The assault isn't over just because the victim has (potentially temporarily) gained the initiative.

Now- when talking about a determined attacker coming aboard KNOWING the crew or a portion thereof is aboard- How long are you going to let the individual have freedom of movement on your vessel before you begin taking action? escalation of force probably consisting of simultaneuosly hitting the spreader lights and sounding the airhorn repeatedly, followed by engaging the target with the fire extingusisher, and finally if neccesary- once having gained the initiavtive, closing the gap and reducing the threat. Just by hitting the lights and the horn you have shifted the momentum of the encounter- maybe enough to survive the subsequent encounter, should it take place. You have made it known that you are not only aware of your assailant, but that you are ready for the encounter, the game has changed substantially at that point, from a psychological standpoint.

I've never fended off or dealt with an attack on my boat. I used to have a job requiring me to work work a whole lot in a capacity where my success as wellas safety was typically determined by my ability to be grey while also being keenly observant, and knowing how to properly interpret what my senses were telling me. The other aspect of the job involved going into peoples houses- at night usually- and getting them. I can assure you, from the end of being the guy bent on doing harm to the resident- I always preferred it when everyone was asleep until the zipties were on.

I can not stress enough the importance of appearing disinteresting. believe me when i say some **** isn't worth living through. If your focus is how to survive an encounter, you are way more likely to experience one, if you make it about how to avoid one- you are for more likely to live a life unmarred by one.

to me saliing is about the only thing that makes living some thing other than "surviving" anymore. I always think its silly when people start talking about how to survive- as if there could be anything less pleasant... the point is living- to the fullest of your capability why else blow off and sail the tropics for a few weeks or months or years?


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Here is an excellent article written a few years ago that recaps all that is said here. 
This site also has some excellent cruising guides for free that are cruising the Caribbean. 
Free Cruising Guides » The Good, The Bad, The Ugly


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Melrna said:


> Here is an excellent article written a few years ago that recaps all that is said here.
> This site also has some excellent cruising guides for free that are cruising the Caribbean.
> Free Cruising Guides » The Good, The Bad, The Ugly


Melrna... good read... here is another site with each country and the crimes and advisories...

Caribbean Crime Warnings - Advice on Avoiding Crime in the Caribbean

It lists Puerto Rico as having 28.8 murders per 100,000 and likely so with the drug and unemployment problems... but we go each year with every other year staying several weeks there and we haven't encountered any problems as of yet... we stick to the normal routes and avoid off the venue places... lots to explore though.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

thank you Melissa for this link. It was the best thing I read on this whole thread.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

If it was me, I would always have a tiny .380 with me, easy to carry and conceal and I'd rather deal with the justice system in a worst case "self-defense" type situation than the coroner.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

azguy said:


> If it was me, I would always have a tiny .380 with me, easy to carry and conceal and I'd rather deal with the justice system in a worst case "self-defense" type situation than the coroner.












Uh oh..


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

AZ dude, you pretty much stumbled upon an antigun thread. I would either retract your obvious intention of defending yourself in the world or prepare to defend your positioon here my friend.

Jerry


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

azguy said:


> If it was me, I would always have a tiny .380 with me, easy to carry and conceal and I'd rather deal with the justice system in a worst case "self-defense" type situation than the coroner.


For me, there is absolutely nothing that embodies the notion of 'Freedom' to a greater or more beautiful degree, than to take off on a sailing yacht, and let the wind carry you to any place on earth that your heart may desire...

With the literal 'world' of choices available to any cruising sailor - and especially considering there are places, such as the Bahamas, where one can cruise in possession of their firearms with no problem and in complete compliance with their laws - it's completely beyond me why anyone would deliberately choose to sail to a destination where one would have to place themselves in even greater jeopardy, by willingly contravening a country's laws or regulations in order to retain possession of their guns...

Why on earth would you choose to sail, _FOR PLEASURE_, to a place where you would have to be in violation of their own laws to feel 'safe'? Seems so much easier to simply avoid such places, no?


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

There is no decision, that is more personal, than decisions on personal defense.

I try and have a plan I feel comfortable with, for every possible negative contingency, from hurricanes, to loss of engine, to loss of rudder, to criminal boardings, to sinking.

I don't necessarily feel that I need to discuss any of these plans on the internet, or that my plans are any better than anyone else's plans, for anyone except for me.

If these unfortunate cruisers in St. Lucia had a plan to deal with this kind of assault, it was either a poor plan, or poorly executed.

The only really bad plan for any emergency, is to just hope it doesn't happen.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jerryrlitton said:


> AZ dude, you pretty much stumbled upon an antigun thread. I would either retract your obvious intention of defending yourself in the world or prepare to defend your positioon here my friend.
> 
> Jerry


An _"anti-gun thread"???_ Seriously?

Care to point to a _single post_ in this thread that could reasonably be construed as "anti-gun"?


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> By comparison, the homicide rate in the US, per 100,000, is under 5.


By Comparison the US homicide rate is one of the highest in the world.....

U.S. murder rate higher than nearly all other developed countries: FBI data | The Raw Story

"14,827 people were murdered last year in the United States...... the murder rate - 4.7 murders per 100,000 people - was significantly higher than in most other wealthy nations. The comparable rate is 0.4 in Japan, 0.8 in Germany, 1.0 in Australia 1.1 in France and 1.2 in Britain, according to figures compiled by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development."

Let's not get too excited to be proud of the level of crime in the USA>.....


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

...settles down with a bowl of popcorn to watch the fireworks...


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

ericb760 said:


> ...settles down with a bowl of popcorn to watch the fireworks...


I prefer just to switch off this forum till the Mods realise the reason why the put political threads off somewhere quiet is because they dont may a forum better. They just **** it up.

Mark


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I prefer just to switch off this forum till the Mods realise the reason why the put political threads off somewhere quiet is because they dont may a forum better. They just **** it up.
> 
> Mark


You turn off the entire forum instead of just avoiding the thread that offended you?


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

vtsailguy said:


> By Comparison the US homicide rate is one of the highest in the world.....
> 
> U.S. murder rate higher than nearly all other developed countries: FBI data | The Raw Story
> 
> ...


Exactly. Americans are used to a higher crime rate, and probably come to the islands with a little more insight than people who come from basically violent crime free areas.

I was always surprised how many of the homicide victims in New Orleans, Miami, and Baltimore when I lived there, were foreign tourists, and how often they were killed in an area that wasn't really a good place to be. I always wondered if they were looking for drugs, or just that stupid, to have ended up in places where the cops only went in pairs.

I actually stopped two really pretty young girls, who were from Australia and backpacking, who were headed to walk by a notorious housing project in New Orleans one night. They seemed oblivious to any danger. I expected to read about them in the paper the next few weeks, but I didn't.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

JonEisberg said:


> An _"anti-gun thread"???_ Seriously?
> 
> Care to point to a _single post_ in this thread that could reasonably be construed as "anti-gun"?


Just wait for it......just a itsy bitsy snowball at the moment.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

vtsailguy said:


> By Comparison the US homicide rate is one of the highest in the world.....
> 
> U.S. murder rate higher than nearly all other developed countries: FBI data | The Raw Story
> 
> ...


First, my post was proving factual data on the comparison of homicide and crime rates between the US and Caribbean, as we were discussing relative safety of the two. Not the entire planet.

Second, you've cherry picked the best rates, but fail to note Hunduras at 91, Venezuala at 45. If you look at the actual data, we are far from "one of the highest in the world." Goodness sakes, we've already established the Caribbean at 30. In fact, the global rate is 8, so the US is better than average.

I'm not trying to say its great, but at least I'm stating the facts, as it relates to our safety while cruising.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jerryrlitton said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
> > An "anti-gun thread"??? Seriously?
> >
> > Care to point to a single post in this thread that could reasonably be construed as "anti-gun"?
> ...


Hmmm, seems a bit of an odd conclusion to draw, when the only post that has overtly taken a position re the choice for or against the carrying of firearms (#84), has come from the "pro-gun" side of the fence...


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

azguy said:


> If it was me, I would always have a tiny .380 with me, easy to carry and conceal and I'd rather deal with the justice system in a worst case "self-defense" type situation than the coroner.


Prepare to be vilified my friend........


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

Group9 said:


> Exactly. Americans are used to a higher crime rate, and probably come to the islands with a little more insight than people who come from basically violent crime free areas.
> 
> I was always surprised how many of the homicide victims in New Orleans, Miami, and Baltimore when I lived there, were foreign tourists, and how often they were killed in an area that wasn't really a good place to be. I always wondered if they were looking for drugs, or just that stupid, to have ended up in places where the cops only went in pairs.
> 
> I actually stopped two really pretty young girls, who were from Australia and backpacking, who were headed to walk by a notorious housing project in New Orleans one night. They seemed oblivious to any danger. I expected to read about them in the paper the next few weeks, but I didn't.


I had a similar experience with some sweet British ladies who were crossing Rampart Street in the wrong direction....the local gentry would have torn them apart like a pack of dogs. They took my advise and went toward Bourbon et. al. and were perfectly safe.

I expect you are exactly right about the relative innocence of many who are fortunate enough to come from relatively crime-free areas.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I prefer just to switch off this forum till the Mods realise the reason why the put political threads off somewhere quiet is because they dont may a forum better. They just **** it up.
> 
> Mark


I have still yet to figure out how discussions of personal safety on board a boat is considered by many to be "political".


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

What we're describing here in the latest posts is 'street smarts', or being AWARE of your surroundings or the local 'culture' that you enter, even temporarily.

Street smarts is the constant awareness that something BAD 'may' and 'can' happen and that you are AWAKE and ready to appropriately respond with the least amount of effort to any such threats, etc. Street smarts are needed in ALL major metropolitan areas of the entire planet, and especially in those areas that have a historical high crime rate. Even in the small rural towns with minuscule crime rates inevitably are places that one shouldn't go during certain times of the day or night; ... just a fact of human life.

As per the comments offered about the high USA violent crime rates ... those statistics are laughable when one subtracts out the _crime rates of the large cities_ that have apparently lost control, or have abandoned control because of 'political advantage/necessity'. When one does NOT cherry-pick the statistics, is honest and objective, and carefully reviews the statistics, the USA in most parts is equivalent in actual crime rate, or less than, those areas of the planet where people actually respect one another ... in reference to this thread ... same with many places in the Caribbean.

Street smarts will tell you (or should tell you) where to go and those places to avoid ... your street smart senses should be so constant and so developed to tell you so. If youre culturally 'unconscious' and lacking simple 'street smarts' (ie. you just fell off the turnip truck from Podunk) you can easily become a victim ... if you're in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and are EXPLICITLY showing to the predators that you're VULNERABLE.

Cherry-picking for ulterior political motives always skews the results.

Be AWARE, be CONSCIOUS, ASK, and alway have a prepared 'out'. This could be as simple as having a money clip fastened to a small and fanned 'wad' of money - you show it to the perp, you throw the money clip in one direction as you 'exit' in the opposite direction, etc.

Stay safe, and always be aware of where you are .... in large cities or in remote anchorages.

;-)


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## -OvO- (Dec 31, 2011)

back on topic, has anyone posted this news in this thread? I haven't seen it:

BREAKING NEWS: 2 more in custody for tourist?s murder | St. Lucia News Online


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, seems a bit of an odd conclusion to draw, when the only post that has overtly taken a position re the choice for or against the carrying of firearms (#84), has come from the "pro-gun" side of the fence...


While technically correct that this thread hasn't gone _too_ anti gun (yet), the fact remains that this forum has a majority opinion against firearms and cruising, and a history of vilification of those who stray from that viewpoint.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Given that we've had two reports now that the unfortunate victim was bludgeoned/drowned I've edited the title to remove the 'gunned down' reference - apparently he was not shot.

No less tragic, but not a shooting so we can leave the gun issue out of this discussion. But if this thread degenerates into yet another 'self defense' discussion it will be moved.

Ron


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

So I have spent the last few hours trying to figure out the "safest" and "most dangerous" Caribbean Islands, motivated, in part because I'll be spending a year there next season.

I have found quite a few surprises that I'll be blogging about.

To start with, here is the projected (2014) number of homicides per mile of coastline:










More coming...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It should be interesting to differentiate between islands. However, I'm not following the coastline relevance, as this is directly influenced by population density. I would think the preponderance of violence among the population is a better indication of civility.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

I am looking into many factors. Homicide rate is only one.....

First consider what a homicide rate implies. It's not really a predictor of what crimes are committed against tourists, it's mostly a (very) coarse measure of the lethal crimes in that country. The first step is to convert rates to absolute numbers. Small countries can be greatly affected by relatively isolated incidents. For example, a single murder (for a total of one) in Montserrat in 2012 inflated that nation's homicide rate to 19.7 per 100,000 population!

I have projected rates to 2014, much of the data is up to 5 years old, and clearly increasing or decreasing. I did regressions to project to 2014 and then looked at absolute numbers.

One then has to think of how these might be distributed across the country/island. At first, one might consider using area. That would give a coarse comparison of "what's your chance of walking into trouble?"

But, as sailors, let's assume we stay (mostly) to the coastline. Many of the countries are islands chains, or strange shapes. This means that their "sailor contact area", i.e. the coastline, doesn't correlate well to the area. So, I looked up actual coastline lengths to make a correct for this to give the rates above.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> ...such as the Bahamas, where one can cruise in possession of their firearms with no problem and in complete compliance with their laws...


So you can bring your shotgun to the Bahamas? That is excellent. I didn't know that.

Regards,
Brad


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Safest Islands:
Anguilla
Cayman Islands
Dominica
Guadaloupe
Montserrat
St Martin (French)
Turks and Caicos Islands

Worst Islands:
Dominican Republic
Puerto Rico
St Lucia
St Vincent
Trinidad


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

vtsailguy said:


> I am looking into many factors. Homicide rate is only one.....
> 
> First consider what a homicide rate implies. It's not really a predictor of what crimes are committed against tourists, it's mostly a (very) coarse measure of the lethal crimes in that country. The first step is to convert rates to absolute numbers. Small countries can be greatly affected by relatively isolated incidents. For example, a single murder (for a total of one) in Montserrat in 2012 inflated that nation's homicide rate to 19.7 per 100,000 population!
> 
> ...


VT,

Excellent analysis. Really top notch (from a former Gartner analyst).

Your use of "per coastline" reminds me of using "per seat" when talking about airplane safety. When considering how safe airline travel is, it's not really about the chance the airplane will crash. It's about the safety of the seat you are in. (When a bigger airplane crashes, it affects a higher number of seats.) It's a different statistic. You care if your seat is safer per mile than a seat on a different plane or on a train or in a car.

Bravo. (And if it was an analysis of murders against tourists, you'd get a triple bravo.)

Regards,
Brad


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

VT,

You ought to publish this, not just sailing magazines, but larger news outlets.

Regards,
Brad


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

I have data from noonsite and Embassy crime reports too.....


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

VT,

Did you mean "murders per 100 miles of coastline" or "murders per 1,000 miles of coastline"? Having 4 murders per mile of coastline seems high.

Also, is there anyway you can eliminate inland murders -- say murders more than 100 miles form the coast? Threats are usually very geographical.

Regards,
Brad


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> VT,
> 
> Did you mean "murders per 100 miles of coastline" or "murders per 1,000 miles of coastline"? Having 4 murders per mile of coastline seems high.
> 
> ...


To take the Dominican Republic, my very crude regression indicates about 3000 homicides in 2014. With a population of 9,745,000, that's 30 per 100,000.

Now, it has an area of 18,704 square miles, and a coastline of 800 miles. That's 0.16 homicides per square mile per year.

The coastline number is a correction for islands chains etc. It's basically saying that if all the homicides occurred on the coast, there would be 4 per mile per year. This, of course, would not happen, it serves only to provide a corrective number to compare countries in the Caribbean to each other.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Well, here is my thinking:
The Safest and Most Dangerous Caribbean Islands ? sailingwithkids.net


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

I'd think a factor that took into account the width of the shoreline would be appropriate. Maybe average the murders/shoreline feet and the murders/square mile.

Why? Because just going by shoreline compresses inland murders right up onto the beach. It assumes that all murders happen on the beach, which is obviously not the case.

The "area shoreline" method gets you a little closer to the risk, I'd think.

Regards,
Brad


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, seems a bit of an odd conclusion to draw, when the only post that has overtly taken a position re the choice for or against the carrying of firearms (#84), has come from the "pro-gun" side of the fence...


Snowball is getting bigger. Already we see "off topic" remarks. I have to admit I have been off topic quite a bit in the past and I will try to refrain from doing it again since it really goes nowhere. Definitely a dividing line between those who carry and everyone else. It does not take much to make a thread go totally off topic when the human condition is under discussion.

Jerry


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

vtsailguy said:


> Well, here is my thinking:
> The Safest and Most Dangerous Caribbean Islands ? sailingwithkids.net


You make a good point that statistics can be viewed in a lot of different ways by a lot of different people.

It's better to live in a place with the highest murder rate in the world, when nothing happens to you, than it is to live in the place with the lowest murder rate in the world, when something does.

I used to work for a US federal law enforcement agency. We had about 6000 agents. One year, 1994, we had six agents killed. In other words, that year, I had a statistical chance of 1 in 1000 of being killed. I barely knew two of the. It would not be fair to say that either of them was a close friend. It didn't affect my life as no one tried to kill me.

The year before, 1993, though, we only had one agent out of 6000 killed. Again, I knew him, but not that well, although it happened in the same office I was in. And, so I only had a one in 6000 chance of being killed that year. However that year, I was involved in a shooting and someone tried very hard to kill me.

So really, what was the more dangerous year in my life? 1993 or 1994? The worst statistical probability year, or what really happened?

I suspect it's the same way we all look at statistics, in our regular life, and when cruising. Until it happens to us, or someone we know well, it really doesn't register or matter.

In other words, I would probably take reports like what happened to these cruisers, more to heart when making cruising decision, than I would be to look at statistics. That may not be mathematically logical, but it is human nature.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

vtsailguy said:


> Well, here is my thinking:
> The Safest and Most Dangerous Caribbean Islands ? sailingwithkids.net


Well, that's an interesting analysis, I suppose, but the overall conclusions are still so general as to be of little value to most cruising sailors... I don't think they come remotely close in value to what you dismiss as "anecdotal" reports via the Coconut Telegraph, and collated in sources such as Noonsite, and the Caribbean Safety & Security Net...

These islands are like everywhere else, some portions of them are less dangerous than others. Jamaica, for example (another place I won't ever be taking my own boat back to), can be one of the more dangerous countries in the Caribbean basin, and IMHO cruising the south coast or in the vicinity of Kingston would entail a considerable amount of risk... And yet, one can be completely safe ensconced within the Errol Flynn Marina in Port Antonio, or the Montego Bay Yacht Club... And, the 5 days I spent off the very laid-back beaches of Negril, usually anchored right next to the local police boat right in front of the Hedonism II resort, I've never felt more relaxed and generally safer anywhere else outside of the Bahamas...

One of the saddest aspects of this tragedy, is that the risk of spending the night in Vieux-Fort has been well documented, and should have been well known to any cruiser 'on the ground' in St Lucia. There have been brazen recent burglaries reported in _DAYTIME_, for instance... Now, we still know few details of this incident, and I certainly don't want to stray into second-guessing/blaming the victims territory here, but there would have been little excuse for any savvy cruiser to be unaware of the risk of staying there overnight, and to weigh the options of perhaps departing and heaving-to in the lee of the island for the night, or backtracking to Soufriere, or standing an anchor watch throughout the night, and so on... Bottom line is, the Coconut Telegraph is always gonna be _BY FAR_ the most current and most useful source of information in any evaluation of where one might need to maintain a heightened awareness, and be extra-vigilant, or avoid completely...

All of this reinforces the pity that Cuba remains off limits for most American cruisers, there is probably no safer place for visitors to any country in all of the Caribbean basin, by a considerable margin...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> So you can bring your shotgun to the Bahamas? That is excellent. I didn't know that.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Well, I believe there are restrictions on certain types of firearms that one can bring, you'd have to check on that... They must be "secured" aboard your boat, and every bit of ammunition must be accounted for, and so on. And, if you leave your boat in the Bahamas and return to the States by air for any time, you're required to place your weapons in the custody of the local officials, though I'm guessing this is probably not always done...

I've always thought that a major component of the fact that so many American cruisers in the Bahamas never get beyond Georgetown - AKA 'Chicken Harbor' - is that by heading further south, the next stops of the Turks & Caicos, then the DR, require one to declare and surrender their weapons for the duration of their stay in the country (beyond 24 hrs in the case of the T&C)


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

vtsailguy said:


> So I have spent the last few hours trying to figure out the "safest" and "most dangerous" Caribbean Islands, motivated, in part because I'll be spending a year there next season.
> 
> I have found quite a few surprises that I'll be blogging about.
> 
> ...


This is interesting and all, but I have a hard time believing that the small statistical variations among the majority of the islands have much practical value to actual safety of visitors to the islands.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I wonder how correlated we would find factors like unemployment and drug trafficking/transiting. I took a look at unemployment and there did appear to be a correlation, but there were some grand exception or outliers. Most higher crime countries had high unemployment, but not all, and vice versa.

Drug trafficking/transiting is probably a biggy, but I'm not sure how to get stats. Certainly, there are hot spots for this around the world and they are not where I want to be alone.

The UN report does attribute violent crime to this. A tourist being in the way or accidentally witnessing something the bad guys didn't want you to see is not safe.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I believe there are restrictions on certain types of firearms that one can bring, you'd have to check on that... They must be "secured" aboard your boat, and every bit of ammunition must be accounted for, and so on. And, if you leave your boat in the Bahamas and return to the States by air for any time, you're required to place your weapons in the custody of the local officials, though I'm guessing this is probably not always done...
> 
> I've always thought that a major component of the fact that so many American cruisers in the Bahamas never get beyond Georgetown - AKA 'Chicken Harbor' - is that by heading further south, the next stops of the Turks & Caicos, then the DR, require one to declare and surrender their weapons for the duration of their stay in the country (beyond 24 hrs in the case of the T&C)


And, the Bahamas is one of the safest places you can cruise (outside of Nassau) and I often wonder if it is because of the liberal firearms policy for cruisers (you might be surprised to know many Americans have firearms carry permits in the Bahamas, I used to have one, and everyone I worked with had one, although it was almost impossible for a Bahamian citizen to have one). I know most people assume American yachts in the Bahamas have firearms on board. Yet, instead of more crime against boats and cruisers in the Bahamas, there seems to be less.

It seems, that in the Bahamas, the opportunity of finding a firearm on board an unoccupied vessel by a intruding thief is outweighed by the possibility of the misfortune of mistakenly finding it occupied, with a firearm on board.

Instead of thinking it is stupid to take firearms to a relatively safe cruising area like the Bahamas, maybe that is the reason it is such a relatively safe cruising area.

A nation's crime, like it's economy, is usually the result of a lot of different interacting factors, rather than one single factor. I say that as someone who has worked in law enforcement in lots of different places in the United States and in the world (including the Bahamas and other countries in the Caribbean) in my career. And, even so, I sure don't have it figured out all of the way.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Group9 said:


> In other words, I would probably take reports like what happened to these cruisers, more to heart when making cruising decision, than I would be to look at statistics. That may not be mathematically logical, but it is human nature.


Well, I think from a statistics point of view I would think that my value of "n" (1 and 2) is so small that your confidence intervals overlap, i.e., you can't make useful distinctions between them.

Statistics includes the important aspect of actual measurements in their own certainty, R value etc. It IS a pretty exact science, that seeks to measure its own inexactness......


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, that's an interesting analysis, I suppose, but the overall conclusions are still so general as to be of little value to most cruising sailors... I don't think they come remotely close in value to what you dismiss as "anecdotal" reports via the Coconut Telegraph, and collated in sources such as Noonsite, and the Caribbean Safety & Security Net...


Which is exactly why I went through and collated ALL the reports from the last 5 years from those sources.

But still only as a factor. The Safety net doesn't report all incidents, it only shows ones that were reported. For example, a rush of thefts on people chartering *probably* would not show up as they probably don't know of the net. Its a self selected sample.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Group9 said:


> And, the Bahamas is one of the safest places you can cruise (outside of Nassau) and I often wonder if it is because of the liberal firearms policy for cruisers.....


While I support one's right to carry (as well as requiring mandatory serious training and testing), I doubt this is why the Bahamas are safer. PLEASE, let's not do the gun debate!

The Bamahas were not safe at all for cruisers in the 70s, maybe even the 80s. Boats were often found with their entire crew killed for no apparent reason. It was commonly assumed that someone from the prolific drug transiting trade has stumbled upon them, or they unwittingly anchored in a nice cove off a drug lord's beach house and were killed as potential witnesses. Seriously, every single out island in the Bahamas has a number of paved runways, many (most?) of which were put in or paved by the drug runners.

It wasn't until the Bahamian government realized that the masses were not benefiting from this illicit economy and they would be much better off with tourism that they partnered with the US DEA and virtually wiped it out.

Less drug crime, less violence. Pretty sure the correlation works as a good cruising rule of thumb.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Group9 said:


> And, the Bahamas is one of the safest places you can cruise (outside of Nassau) and I often wonder if it is because of the liberal firearms policy for cruisers (you might be surprised to know many Americans have firearms carry permits in the Bahamas, I used to have one, and everyone I worked with had one, although it was almost impossible for a Bahamian citizen to have one). I know most people assume American yachts in the Bahamas have firearms on board. Yet, instead of more crime against boats and cruisers in the Bahamas, there seems to be less.
> 
> It seems, that in the Bahamas, the opportunity of finding a firearm on board an unoccupied vessel by a intruding thief is outweighed by the possibility of the misfortune of mistakenly finding it occupied, with a firearm on board.
> 
> Instead of thinking it is stupid to take firearms to a relatively safe cruising area like the Bahamas, maybe that is the reason it is such a relatively safe cruising area.


I think you are absolutely correct... Trust me, I _ALWAYS_ fly my slightly oversized American ensign proudly wherever I go, but especially so when in the Bahamas  I have little doubt that anyone else doing so, benefits to some degree from the perception that there's a pretty good chance that any American cruiser in the Bahamas is likely to be armed...

That's certainly one of the reasons I generally feel pretty secure in the Bahamas... That, and the fact that I'm almost always sailing the smallest, and most modest boat everywhere I go  You and c-breeze have made some very good points in this thread, that I'm afraid some might be overlooking, re the sort of elemental precautions and attitudes one can take to minimize risk, and one of those is certainly to surround yourself with far easier, or more ripe targets, whenever possible...

One of the simplest ways people can do this throughout the Caribbean, is to avoid showing up on boats looking like Conestoga Wagons festooned with valuable kroozing gear and trinkets on display... A boat with decks and stern rails kept free of much of the crap most cruisers are hauling around is obviously far less inviting a target for someone with bad intentions scoping out an anchorage from shore... A cruiser who rows ashore, or is puttering around with a 2 HP Honda that has little or no value in that part of the world, is gonna attract FAR less attention than one flying around in an SUV inflatable, with a 15-20 HP Yamaha that will represent a considerable 'score' for any thief...

The simple practice of laying low, flying under the radar, stowing your possessions and gear in secure lockers below deck, should pay off in spades in the long run... Always assume you are being observed and 'evaluated' as a target, and make a 'show' of being conscious and diligent about security. For instance, I almost always hoist my dinghy clear of the water even during the daytime, whenever it's not being used, I think he helps send a message that you mean business about the security of your 'stuff'... Things like outboard engines are such a tempting target throughout a cruising ground like the Caribbean, and IMHO if I can't get mine off the stern rail, and stow it out of sight when in a place I might consider to represent a high risk, well... then either that engine is too big to be taking to such places, or the Mother Ship is too small, to begin with...


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

caberg said:


> This is interesting and all, but I have a hard time believing that the small statistical variations among the majority of the islands have much practical value to actual safety of visitors to the islands.


Which is why I combined other factors like embassy travel warnings and noonsite reports. Check the blog post for all the explanation.



Group9 said:


> I know most people assume American yachts in the Bahamas have firearms on board. Yet, instead of more crime against boats and cruisers in the Bahamas, there seems to be less.
> 
> Instead of thinking it is stupid to take firearms to a relatively safe cruising area like the Bahamas, maybe that is the reason it is such a relatively safe cruising area.


This seems a massive massive assumption. Taking a look at my data and its clear that the Bahamas is about as relatively safe as 60% of the rest of the Caribbean. We can equally come to the conclusion that carrying guns make no difference and only can lead to the possibility of accidental death.

But let's not fall into a gun debate


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

vtsailguy said:


> Which is why I combined other factors like embassy travel warnings and noonsite reports. Check the blog post for all the explanation.


Just seems like you'd get better results for safe travel by researching and planning how to safely travel everywhere, regardless of what crunching numbers show for any one location. Seems like sort of a useless excercise for all practical purposes. Of course, local knowledge of specific locations is important, but I just don't see how these statistics help in any real way.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Well, I am going to respectfully disagree. You don't want to implement over-the-top precautions for somewhere where crime is unlikely. For example, in Vermont, I haven't locked my house in about 10 years, even when I go on vacation.

Of course one needs to take safety precautions, but they are on a spectrum. At one end is "don't leave stuff lying out at night", at the other is "install a motion sensor security system". Personally, I am going to consider where I want to go, look at the data, and then fall on this spectrum where I think an appropriate level is.

As a new cruiser to the Caribbean, when you read these forums and other sites, its all signal vs noise. You can't glean any reliable information. I feel confident that now, I have.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

vtsailguy said:


> This seems a massive massive assumption. Taking a look at my data and its clear that the Bahamas is about as relatively safe as 60% of the rest of the Caribbean.


Well, that might seem "clear" from your interpretation of UNDOC Homicide Data, but I think that still has relatively little to say about the overall level of safety as it relates to cruising sailors...

While the Noonsite reports are by no means absolutely comprehensive, a review of their piracy data going back to 2006 shows not a _SINGLE_ incident reported from the Bahamas...

And, I would bet that if one removed the homicide stats from New Providence/Nassau alone from the Bahamian tally, their bar on your graph would be virtually invisible...

btw, have you calculated the Homicide/Miles of Coastline Ratio for the United States? Perhaps that might produce an 'interesting' benchmark from which to compare, no?


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> While the Noonsite reports are by no means absolutely comprehensive, a review of their piracy data going back to 2006 shows not a _SINGLE_ incident reported from the Bahamas...


Methinks you misunderstood. I was saying that most of the Caribbean (like the Bahamas) IS relatively safe. Don't just look at the chart, read the rest of the blog.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

caberg said:


> This is interesting and all, but I have a hard time believing that the small statistical variations among the majority of the islands have much practical value to actual safety of visitors to the islands.


Amazing how statistics can be used to sway an argument.

Consider that the Island of Manhattan has typically ~400 homicides per year (2011) and has only ~30 miles of coastline. That's _13 homicides per mile_ if presented in the very same format and thus would be the 'winner' in such charting. And yet, NYC due to police diligence (some would say unconstitutionally) and political will (Guilliani) has become one of the SAFEST large cities in the USA


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

So what's a poor boy to do.
Plans are to head to Bahamas/Caribe in fall.
Have 1y old boat all glossy and nice. Probably never be the smallest boat unless we go to the Med. or some snotty resort mega yacht marina which is unlikely.
Have 1y old Walker Bay ( just numbers no name on it) with a new 9.9hp engine ( probably to small and should have got a 15hp). Carting food and folks in the wind and waves requires at least that much in many Caribe places.Have no interest in putting it in the lazerette. Rowing inflatables is like herding cats.

Soooooooo. You folks say I'm a mark. A push over. A fat old man to be pushed around. Shouldn't go or only go with an AR,mini14 or glock in every corner.

What I get out of this is. Lock everything you can. Keep your eyes open. Don't be an "ugly American". Ask around if you can so you avoid unsafe areas. Rest is a crap shoot just like life in general. 
Sit in your cave or enjoy the sun. Put on sunscreen if you must but get out there.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

vtsailguy said:


> Well, I am going to respectfully disagree. You don't want to implement over-the-top precautions for somewhere where crime is unlikely. For example, in Vermont, I haven't locked my house in about 10 years, even when I go on vacation.
> 
> Of course one needs to take safety precautions, but they are on a spectrum. At one end is "don't leave stuff lying out at night", at the other is "install a motion sensor security system". Personally, I am going to consider where I want to go, look at the data, and then fall on this spectrum where I think an appropriate level is.
> 
> As a new cruiser to the Caribbean, when you read these forums and other sites, its all signal vs noise. You can't glean any reliable information. I feel confident that now, I have.


Thanks

I seems that others are putting a spin on what you don't appear to be putting a spin on.

I have a 'coast line' question... while this is speculation... I would consider there to be more people living on the coastline in the Caribbean... more so than most places... NYC is not the same as the Caribbean in this regard...

The demographics of 'Coastal people' in the US would seem to be more wealthy (and probably just as criminal, but more likely white collar crime) than in those in the Caribbean...but not totally.

I wonder what the population density would be for the Caribbean coast?


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

vtsailguy said:


> Well, I am going to respectfully disagree. You don't want to implement over-the-top precautions for somewhere where crime is unlikely. For example, in Vermont, I haven't locked my house in about 10 years, even when I go on vacation.


Well, now I'm really puzzled by how your numbers will ever do you any good.

I also live in Vermont. While I also feel very safe here, foregoing something as simple as turning a lock when leaving for vacation, just because your statistics tell you that you stand a small chance of being burgled, is, well, .... sorta stupid.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

RichH said:


> Consider that the Island of Manhattan has typically ~400 homicides per year (2011) and has only ~30 miles of coastline. That's _13 homicides per mile_ if presented in the very same format and thus would be the 'winner' in such charting. And yet, NYC due to police diligence (some would say unconstitutionally) and political will (Guilliani) has become one of the SAFEST large cities in the USA


Did you even read what I wrote?



> But the rate isn't really that useful, so we need a better measure. First consider what a homicide rate implies. It's not really a predictor of what crimes are committed against tourists, it's mostly a (very) coarse measure of the lethal crimes in that country. The first step is to convert rates to absolute numbers. One then has to think of how these might be distributed across the country/island. At first, one might consider using area. That would give a coarse comparison of "what's your chance of walking into trouble?" But, as sailors, let's assume we stay (mostly) to the coastline. Many of the countries are islands chains, or strange shapes. This means that their "sailor contact area", i.e. the coastline, doesn't correlate well to the area. So, I looked up actual coastline lengths to make a correction for this to give the rates above.
> 
> This gives, for Monserrat for example, 0.04 homicides per year per mile of coastline. Now this _doesn't_ mean that, Trinidad has over 2 murders per mile of coast. It _DOES_ mean that Trinidad is probably more dangerous than the British Virgin Islands. _*Its a comparative measure.*_


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

caberg said:


> Well, now I'm really puzzled by how your numbers will ever do you any good.
> 
> I also live in Vermont. While I also feel very safe here, foregoing something as simple as turning a lock when leaving for vacation, just because your statistics tell you that you stand a small chance of being burgled, is, well, .... sorta stupid.


while I wouldn't say 'stupid' ....

I live in the Adirondacks (NYS) and people say things about leaving their house unlocked and car with the keys in it. It is a 'safer' place.. but to announce it to the world ...

*My house is locked and has booby traps all over the place... not bombs.. just boobies. *


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

vtsailguy said:


> As a new cruiser to the Caribbean, when you read these forums and other sites, its all signal vs noise. You can't glean any reliable information. I feel confident that now, I have.


I'm really mystified by such an attitude... What does your UNODC Homicide Data tell you about the relative safety of the hundreds of various harbors/anchorages throughout the Greater and Lesser Antilles? How does it allow you to assess the comparative risk between, say, spending the night in Soufriere, as opposed to Vieux-Fort?

If you're gonna brand information from a source such as the Caribbean Safety & Security Net (or even a forum like Sailnet, for that matter) as "unreliable", you might want to re-think your plan... Seems to me a bit like saying the Imray-Iolaire charts for each island are unreliable, or contain too much information, and that a single 'Big Picture' chart of the Caribbean Sea is really the only one you need...


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Jon, did you even read the whole blog post?

I have USED Caribbean Safety & Security Net information, weighting it equal to UNDOC data....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

vtsailguy said:


> Jon, did you even read the whole blog post?
> 
> I have USED Caribbean Safety & Security Net information, weighting it equal to UNDOC data....


Yes, I did...

I'm simply mystified why you would dismiss information presented in a forum such as this - and from people like capta and TQA who have been living and cruising the Caribbean for years - as having little or no value, and yet place such emphasis on national homicide statistics, that may or may not have any real relevance to the type of security issues cruisers are likely to face...

This tragedy in St Lucia was an attempted burglary that sadly turned deadly, after all, not an attempted homicide... Sounds like they did not even have any weapons, beyond the use of their fists... I just don't see these figures having any real value to cruisers, other than in the broadest possible sense, and one that doesn't differ significantly from most people's anecdotal 'impressions' of the region, anyway...


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

It just doesn't make any sense to tailor your precautions to abstract statistics.

If some statistic tells me I have a 1 in 100 chance of being pickpocketed in New York and a 1 in 50 chance of being pickpocketed in Chicago, does that mean I take less precaution New York? I don't think so, at least not me.

Now, if someone tells me there has been a rash of pickpocketings on xyz street in the last week, then that is useful information. I do take extra precaution on that street, or maybe avoid it altogether.

The crime statistics for an entire island/city/region, except in a broad general sense, are totally useless to your overall safety at any one place and point in time.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

OK, let me install steel bars on all hatches, install motion sensors and siren, lock down EVERY SINGLE thing that can be taken (jerry cans, bimini covers, second anchor, spare halyards, mainsail etc etc), lock ladder so it can't be lowered, wrap razor wire round all lifelines, etc etc.

I would be very very secure.

Safety precautions against threat/crime take time and effort. They exist on a spectrum. You do not either have them or not have them. You absolutely need to tailor your response to the perceived threat.

I never said crime statistics were anything other than a broad measure. I (tried) to carefully explain that they were only a crude measure of comparative levels of crime. Yes, Trinidad is definitely less safe than the BVI.



> I have USED Caribbean Safety & Security Net information, weighting it equal to UNDOC data....
> 
> vs
> 
> I'm simply mystified why you would dismiss information presented in a forum such as this


Jon, we are obviously unable to communicate well.......


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

vtsailguy said:


> Which is why I combined other factors like embassy travel warnings and noonsite reports. Check the blog post for all the explanation.
> 
> This seems a massive massive assumption. Taking a look at my data and its clear that the Bahamas is about as relatively safe as 60% of the rest of the Caribbean. We can equally come to the conclusion that carrying guns make no difference and only can lead to the possibility of accidental death.
> 
> But let's not fall into a gun debate


Well, for someone who doesn't want to fall into a gun debate, you sure don't mind putting in your two cents about it.

And, yes, I'm making an assumption. But, I'm not pulling it out of my ass. I've got a lot of time in, in the Bahamas, working and playing. It's an assumption based on observations and experience, not something I've read somewhere.

And, statistical probabilities are fine, as long as your personal experience falls within them. It's when they don't, that it really doesn't matter a rat's ass what should have happened, statistically.

I don't mind taking risks. If you knew me at all, you would know that. (I even teach a course called "Managing the High Risk Taker"). But, when you take risks, especially for a living, you quickly learn that you can't just plan for what will probably happen.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

titustiger27 said:


> while I wouldn't say 'stupid' ....
> 
> I live in the Adirondacks (NYS) and people say things about leaving their house unlocked and car with the keys in it. It is a 'safer' place.. but to announce it to the world ...
> 
> *My house is locked and has booby traps all over the place... not bombs.. just boobies. *


My favorite one about your part of the country.
Lady from the big city visiting her country friend.
When leaving her car in the town center the country lady locked her door.
The city lady chided her and said. "Oh so even you guys have to lock your cars now"
The country lady said. "Yes it's awful this time of year when the vegetables ripen. If you don't lock your car they will fill if full of vegetables. I have too many of my own just like everyone else."


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

davidpm said:


> The country lady said. "Yes it's awful this time of year when the vegetables ripen. If you don't lock your car they will fill if full of vegetables. I have too many of my own just like everyone else."


This is actually true, it happened to me.....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

vtsailguy said:


> OK, let me install steel bars on all hatches, install motion sensors and siren, lock down EVERY SINGLE thing that can be taken (jerry cans, bimini covers, second anchor, spare halyards, mainsail etc etc), lock ladder so it can't be lowered, wrap razor wire round all lifelines, etc etc.
> 
> I would be very very secure.
> 
> ...


No need to resort to such hyperbole, I don't see anyone here suggesting one needs to replace their lifelines with razor wire, or even that such tactics might still result in any sort of 'guarantee' of safety... 

I simply disagree with your assertion:



> As a new cruiser to the Caribbean, when you read these forums and other sites, its all signal vs noise. You can't glean any reliable information.


I think we've seen valuable, accurate input and perspective offered in this thread, in contributions from those who have cruised the Eastern Caribbean, and are in the vicinity of St Lucia as we speak... As we see virtually every day in forums like Sailnet, on matters related to various cruising destinations, from people who are actually in those places right now...

As opposed to those like myself, who hasn't been to St Lucia in years, and am sitting in New Jersey, looking out at my boat that's not going anywhere, anytime soon...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

JonEisberg said:


>


Brrrrr..... Jon what's with your neighbour's boat? aground?

I'm envious of your moorage arrangement but right now above freezing temps look pretty good - even if the boat's a 25 min drive away in soft water...


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

The Admiral is "anxious" about bears! Ha! Not a cruising issue you say? It depends on where you are cruising. We do some (a couple of weeks each year) camping from one of our canoes in "bear country". Our house is in "bear country".

I am trying to get her to head up into Canada for a long trip but the bear issue is a sore point. I have built a prototype of my "bear stick". It contains a motion sensor a strobe and a 90 db speaker. It is my plan that a couple of these placed around camp with a recording of 50 cal machine gun fire that plays in sync with the strobe will be just what it takes to startle and chase a curious bear that wanders into camp. I am having fun with this. The neighbors are not.  It does keep the deer out of the garden.

Why wouldn't it make sense to have simple motion detectors activate lights and noise on the boat? If some opportunist was creeping aboard and all hell broke loose it might turn them around. Lighting things up would turn the tables as has been suggested here in another post. You would have the advantage of being able to see what is going on, on deck.

Short of remote controlled Claymore fenders it would be simple and inexpensive enough and might offer some protection.

Down


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

vtsailguy said:


> OK, let me install steel bars on all hatches, install motion sensors and siren, lock down EVERY SINGLE thing that can be taken (jerry cans, bimini covers, second anchor, spare halyards, mainsail etc etc), lock ladder so it can't be lowered, wrap razor wire round all lifelines, etc etc.
> 
> I would be very very secure.
> 
> Safety precautions against threat/crime take time and effort. They exist on a spectrum. You do not either have them or not have them. You absolutely need to tailor your response to the perceived threat.


OK, if your statistics are going to have any use, then tell me how you would differ your precautions between, say, Barbados and Bahamas -- just based on your statistics.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

caberg said:


> OK, if your statistics are going to have any use, then tell me how you would differ your precautions between, say, Barbados and Bahamas -- just based on your statistics.


I didn't think the stats were to tell you to have your bazooka ready in some ports and your fire extinguisher in others... but maybe which places you would like to avoid --- or sail by at night.

I read a book where tha author mentioned saying by at night and when a boat appeared at on the horizon and seemed to change course towards her, she turned off the lights and changed course herself... Think it was pirates maybe looking for her.

Ironically the other person also turned off their lights --- maybe thinking *SHE* was the pirate

.... just like the residents of the ADKs don't always have to lock their doors sometimes we just park our vehciles outside the library and search the internet for zucchini bread recipes


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I guess someone needs to tell Mrs. Pratt that they have checked the crime statistics for St. Lucia, and statistically, they should have been fine.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Faster said:


> Brrrrr..... Jon what's with your neighbour's boat? aground?


Yes, this is the sort of extreme blow-out tides we can get in the back bays along the Jersey shore in the late fall and winter, with the strong W-NW winds behind a frontal passage... My own boat is probably sitting about 7-8 inches out of the water in that pic...

Sadly, that boat next door has been unattended since Sandy, that guy is one of the many in the neighborhood who simply walked away in the aftermath of the storm, and the bank now owns the property...


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