# A New Hunter 49 and an Old Traditionalist



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I had posted the following yesterday in an old thread, and upon re-reading it this morning, see that it likely got lost in the quagmire of venom to which that thread had descended.  So, here it is as a fresh post:


Traditional sailors, whether they are past owners, present owners or wannabie owners of traditional "bluewater" sailboats, are a rather opinionated bunch. Many are stuck in a mindset that seems to ignore the advances there have been in yacht design and construction in the years since their "perfect" full-keel, heavy-displacement wallower was built.

A case in point: My brother's first response to my telling him I was ordering a Hunter 49 was, "with all your money, why don't you buy a real boat?". He is an accomplished engineer, has built boats and he and his wife have sailed the North Atlantic, the Caribbean and the South America Coast for the past fourteen years in a very traditional Cape Dory.

Last week, when I went to Alachua, Florida to visit the Hunter facility, my brother and his wife were at a nearby St Johns River marina preparing their Cape Dory cutter for another six months of cruising the Caribbean. He jumped at the invitation to join me on the tour, and he appeared to come heavily armed with his pre-conceptions.

During our two-and-a-half-hour walk through, we examined the construction details of hulls 22 through 13, each one being a week or so further along the line and further advanced in its creation, all the way to the just-completed hull 13. The further we went along the production line, the more he examined and the more that his pointed questions were answered, the more his "edge" softened. While I am not saying that we converted him, nor were we trying to, but the experience certainly made his opinion of Hunter much more positive.

He observed that the computer-guided cutters meant that all of the components, from the kevlar cloth and the woven fiberglass to the bulkheads and the cabinetry panels fit together perfectly. There was none of the jamming, prying and pounding into place often seen in the expensive "hand-build" yards. He saw epoxy resins being used in the outer layers of the hull with full saturation and thorough rolling during the lay-up, he examined materials and read labels on resin drums, felt the heft of the cloth, he saw the hull is its many different stages, from gelcote to completed. He nodded his approval. 

He was pleased to see 316L used wherever stainless steel was specified, and he examined the welding rods to ensure they were also 316L. He was impressed with centrally located through-hulls, with the huge storage spaces, and yes, even with the corian counter-tops. Our tour gave us both an understanding of the complexities beneath the surface and a confidence in the design, the materials and the construction methods.

As we were driving back to his boat and we were discussing his observations and thoughts, his major criticism was that the chain plates were over engineered and that they were much more robust than was required.

My boating experience includes a career as a Canadian naval officer, as an upperdeck watchkeeper and a navigator, and I hold a Certificate of Service as Master. Since I bought my first boat in 1964, I have owned a wide assortment of vessels, including a full-keel, heavy-displacement ketch, a Dutch steel canal boat in France and a 48-foot motoryacht. 

I certainly do not qualify as an expert, and I may not even qualify as experienced, but I like what I see in the new Glen Henderson designs at Hunter, and I like the 49 enough to have bought one in preference to everything else I see in the market.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dawn...I'm gonna lay low on this one for a while but I do have a question or two. You've mentioned a new era at Hunter and Glen Henderson a couple of times now. When in your opinion did the quality change...this year, last or further back? Having been in the factory and seen the buiding...what other currently produced boats would you compare the new Hunter's to in terms of overall quality/seaworthiness?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The newer Hunters may be decent boats, especially once you get up to the 49' size...but the old ones certainly were not of the greatest quality, and really were one of the brands that the "Bleach Bottle" denigratory term came out to describe. 

I've also never heard of over-engineered chainplates being a problem to anyone....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Camaraderie,

Glen Henderson arrived at Hunter in 1998. He and his team then began re-designing their entire line of keel boats, culminating this spring with the launch of the 49 to replace the 46. 

To quote from a Cruising World article on the 2005 Boat of the Year, "For several years, BOTY judges have noted the growing influence of Hunter's in-house designer, Glenn Henderson, and nowhere has his sailorly touch shown through more clearly than in this boat. For these and other reasons, the Hunter 38 wins this year's award for Best Production Cruiser Under 40 Feet."

To quote from a Cruising World article naming the Hunter 41 DS the 2006 Boat of the Year - Production Cruiser 40 to 44 Feet: . "I liked this boat a lot. It certainly represents a lot of bang for the buck. The systems upgrades over earlier Hunters I've looked at were just phenomenal. They've improved exponentially, in my opinion."

As far as comparing them to other boat builders, let me just say that contrary to my observations in other builders yards and plants, at Hunter I saw no forcing, pounding or winching badly fitting components into place; everything appeared to fit easily together by workers specialized in their own phase of construction. I saw specialists on the production line, rather than Jacks-of-all-trades.

The employees with whom I spoke were all very knowledgeable in their particular part in the process, and they seemed to enjoy sharing their knowledge and insights. I would suppose that the employee ownership program makes them feel much more committed to the part they play in the company.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> I've also never heard of over-engineered chainplates being a problem to anyone....


I guess my brother was so flummoxed by what he saw during the tour compared to what he had in his mind prior to the tour, that he had to grab something. I will admit though, that the 3/4 inch thick 316L plates do seem quite robust; but they sure are pretty.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dawndreamer...Well I hope the quality is improving a bit as it had certainly deteriorated through the first half of this decade. I wouldn't use cruising world reviews as a great reference since they are obviously beholden to advertisers and seem to divvy up the awards each year to keep everyone happy. Example: You quote the 38 as "best production cruiser under 40 feet" in the BOTY awards which is absolutely true. But the whole point is that they (Cruising World) rig it that way. There were only THREE other boats in the competition for that particular trophy and one of them was a hunter 33!! Now that doesn't make the 38 a bad boat...it just shows that the award is nothing more than an advertising gimmick. How does it compare to the Etap which won the prior year or for that matter the Sabre 38 which won DOMESTIC BOAT OF THE YEAR in the same year. Hmmmm...two 38 foot production boats each win in different categories yet both are monohulls and cruisers?? 
I'll wait for a Practical Sailor review myself!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> I'll wait for a Practical Sailor review myself!


Practical Sailor reviewed the 49 in their October issue. To quote from their Conclusions: "The design of the 49 impresses us as much more streamlined than many previous models from this builder. And Hunter has fulfilled most of its self-imposed mandate regarding this boat. This vessel makes significant strides toward easier maintenance. For a boat of this size, the H49 is easy to manage under sail. And many elements of the design will enhance on-the water safety (the kick-out panel in the aft cabins, the two watertight bulkheads, and easy access to the head of the rudder post for using the emergency tiller offer strong testimony to that notion).

"Hunter is clearly taking great measures to ensure that this boat lives up to its bluewater billing (Pettengill personally drove the prototype into the beach 10 times at up to 9.5 knots with the mainsail drawing). In our opinion, the 49 offers moderate passagemaking potential with sufficient comfort, and relatively low maintenance ..."

Those familiar with Practical Sailor reviews will know about their Hits and Misses and their Pros and Cons. The boat they tested was the shoal draft, in-mast furling, short mast, standard jib version, and, of course they found the light air performance "lacks umph". Several of their Misses and Cons seemed misguided or nitpicking: their Con on the anchor well was "only one cleat". In the well is a cleat and a beefy U-bolt, and beside it on deck are two mooring cleats. Their Con on the rig: "Fixed staysail can interfere with tacking the genoa", seems to me to be a general statement on all cutter rigs. Their Miss: "Front-loading fridge and freezer are relatively inefficient." misses the fact that there are also two large independent top loading freezers.

Practical Sailor's test boat was hull #1, and Hunter has already modified design specifications on subsequent boats, either through their own discovery during test saliing or to address reviewers' comments and critiques.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

DD...thanks for the update. I will haveto take a look at the whole review but it does sound as if progress is being made. I actually was impressed with the limited production 50' they built a few years ago as a blue water boat so it is evident they CAN built a quality vessel when they want to. That really has not been their goal too often in the past. This is not to say that they should build blue-water boats...that is not their typical target customer or price range...but they at least need to build the same quality as their competition. Sounds like that is now happening.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

DD, 

I'm duly impressed with the reviews and prose. 

I was involved in high tech for 25 years, do you know how you get a good review from th Gartner Group? You pay them. I know, I wrote the check(s). 
Byte, PCWorld and Network News never met a product from an advertiser they didn't love.

While Practical Sailor did a decent review, it certainly wasn't stellar. 
Please keep us updated as to how you feel in a year or two, ok? 

I'm glad you toured the factory. I have as well, as well as Catalina's and a little guy down here in Texas that build some rather decent tubs... Valiant. 
My brother was a carpenter with Hatteras for many years. My point here is that factory tours are set-ups and you don't get all that good of an idea as to what really happens... My brother can tell you horror stories that'd curl your hair. 
I've seen some of the items that were cut out of hulls in process due to the need of a "do-over". You don't get to see that. 

Look, love your boat, its your boat. You bought it for your own reasons, I don't need to be justified in your decision. 
Good luck, and fair winds.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CP,

that story just got me curious.

Please, why don't you start a thread telling some of the stories that would curl our hair??

I would love to hear them. You seem to have been around a lot.Thank you


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

nope. not gunna do it.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*Faint Praise*



dawndreamer said:


> Practical Sailor reviewed the 49 ,,, as *much more streamlined* than many previous models ... *significant strides* toward easier maintenance.....taking *great measures* to ensure that this boat lives up to its bluewater billing ....*moderate* passagemaking potential with sufficient comfort, and *relatively* low maintenance ..."...


DD
It's great you have a new Hunter lined up and that you are pleased with what you're buying. That is certainly the most important criteria for any new boat! And the best of luck with her.

But you have a long row to hoe if you want to personally turn around Hunter's reputation on a forum like this! Hunters have made somewhat crappy boats since day one, or seriously crappy depending on model, boats targeted at first time buyers, who are by definition, buyers who don't know boats.

Its good to see that Hunter may have improved some of their production processes and even added some solid design points to their new boats. So Hunters may not be as crappy as they used to be, but that is damning with faint praise. They certainly are very peculiar designs. To my personal eye, with the Clorox bottle styling and the oddball port shapes and locations, they look pretty ugly if not downright silly! You may be happy with a rig with no backstay, but I sure wouldn't want to be the one testing it offshore.

I cannot comment from current experience on their new boats - I guess because based on 35 years of sailboat ownership I avoid them like the plague - other than to observe that they are still seem to be bought by the same type of buyer, someone who has more money than expertise. You know that is true, because if they had a modicum of expertise, they'd pay a little more and at least get a Catalina.

How many times have you heard this dialog "Hey we started sailing and bought our first sailboat" "Whuddyaget?" " We bought a Hunter..."

As to the BOY award, unfortunately Cruising World seems to handle that award just like Motor Trend's Car of the Year - always given to a big advertiser, such as when Motor Trend gave that designation to the 1971 Chevy Vega. Doesn't mean anything at all. No matter how they may improve their production techniques, a Chevy remains a Chevy, and a Hunter a Hunter.

I guess to each their own, but if you want to evangelize here for your brand, you have to expect to hear some different perspectives. I hope I haven't been too frank.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingfool said:


> I cannot comment from current experience on their new boats - I guess because based on 35 years of sailboat ownership I avoid them like the plague - other than to observe that they are still seem to be bought by the same type of buyer, someone who has more money than expertise. ... I hope I haven't been too frank.


The small amount of sailing experience I have dates back to my first boat 42 years ago, a 16-foot clinker-built sailing dory that took me up and down the Straits of Georgia and up most of the BC central coast inlets. My tool kit consisted of such things as saw, plane, caulking irons and mallet, and my spares were a few planks and some oakum. I was younger then, and a tent ashore was my master cabin. Sailing a ship's whaler from Samoa to Tonga further taught me that onboard accommodation and creature comfort were an important aspect of this sailing thing.

My first "real" sailboat was a ten-year-old 1969 Bill Garden designed Mariner 40 ketch with its full-keel, overly thick glass hull and its endless hours of teak caprails, taffrails and trim. In her I solo-sailed much of the Pacific Northwest and she taught me that my next boat would have less brightwork, would be more sprightly in light airs and that I needn't pay moorage for 48 feet of overall length to get 30 feet of waterline length.

Some of my other lessons along the way were a 1976 Valiant 40 teaching me about osmosis, hull blisters and delamination and how much interior space is lost with a rounded stern and just how dark a sailboat interior can be. She also taught me that beating to windward should be easier. A 1977 Hallberg-Rassy 41 ketch instilled in me just how expensive it is to repair, replace and maintain non-standard and low production equipment and fittings.

I took a hiatus from sailing in the late 90s to restore a 1973 Kersholt 14 meter steel cruiser and explore the canals and rivers of France. With the canal boat sold this spring, I again turned my attention to sailing.

Sailingfool, I may lack expertise; however, I am not a sailing fool, I certainly do not have limitless funds, nor am I a novice at this. This is not my first sailboat, but it is my first new one and it seems to satisfy more of my current needs than anything else, new or used in the current market.

I have no problem with the fact that Hunter "pissed in the pickle jar" in the past, and all at Hunter agree that they had problems in the past. From what I see now with Hunter is that there is a new jar with a new batch, and it smells good. So good, in fact that I am eager to crunch into one.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Here's a Youtube link to a video review of the Hunter 38 that was done by John Kretschmer for "Latitudes & Attitudes TV". He's also done the Hunter 31 and 45CC, and is scheduled to review the new 49.






I've spoken to John about this, who is extremely knowledgeable about boat design and construction, and he is impressed with the improvements that Hunter has made in the last 4 years or so.


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## dgarr75456 (Nov 6, 2006)

I am currently shopping for a new boat, and as a 30+ year sailor, and former J boat owner, I was not a Hunter fan at all when I started the process. After much shopping and research, I am impressed with the Henderson Hunters. I finally got to sail one a few weeks ago and was very pleased with the handling and ease of sailing. The boat sailed very nicely. The new Hunters are a clear leap forward from the old designs.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

dgarr75456 said:


> I was not a Hunter fan at all when I started the process. After much shopping and research, I am impressed with the Henderson Hunters.


During my long and rather exhaustive search for a sailboat last winter and spring, I initially ignored Hunter based on my knowledge of their past and concerns about their quality. However, wanting to be thorough in my research, I did eventually looked at their current offerings and the more I saw and learned, the more I liked.

One of the prime lessons I have learned over the years in building and operating a one-man multi-million-dollar business is that a company's history and past performance show only what they have done. While inferences can be made from their past, this history does not show what the company is now doing. We have all seen products turn from top-of-the-line to low quality, often with a rather rapid decline. Many of us, however, seem to deny that the change in quality can also be in the opposite direction. We need to look at current performance, not at stale data.

A decade ago, who would have dreamed that Volkswagen would be building Rolls Royce and Bently?  Things happen.


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## dgarr75456 (Nov 6, 2006)

I agree. Remember the Iacocca turn-around at Chrysler? Sailors tend to have a very long memory, and tend to be reluctant to change. Therefore, J Boats, due to the J24 and J22, will always be viewed as the performance standard, regardless of what they make. Hunter, like Catalina, went through a bad period. Nevertheless, I think Hunter will make major inroads with the new line.


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## Brezzin (Dec 4, 2006)

*New Hunters*

I like to think that I have a little bit of knowlage regarding sailing. Maybe not so much in the construction but I have to tell you this.

1) I toured the Hunter factory about 3 weeks ago. (before I ordered a 49) It was not a "setup" in anyway, shape or form. As far as a "hair curling" story, well I doubt their isn't a business around that has not had them. 
I was very impressed with what I saw. I can also tell you that I felt the Hunter employees took pride in what they were doing and turning out a quality product. Hunter's employee ownership certinly does not hurt.

2) I took the 49 (hull #1) out for a test sail in 15-20 knot winds (LI Sound)in late September. all I can tell you is that it felt like I was in 8 to 10. The Henderson Hull just cut through the waves. A first class ride. I loved the way it handled at a number of different points of sail. I really loved how it handles in close Quarters. Will it be a pig in light winds? Probably but what heavy displacment boat isn't.

3) I looked at a number of other boats in this size range and you know what, they all use the same parts like Lewmar winches, Harkin roller furlers, etc. etc.

4) When I told my racing freinds I was buying a hunter 49. They said why not a Pacific Seacraft or a Saber. Why a Hunter? my answer is simple, Value.
The Hunter is made every bit as good as those other boats and had the features that I was looking for at a discount of 20% or more. Please don't even give me that Price = Quality as justification for any purchase. Try the buying power that they have between Hunter, Mainship, silverton and Luhrs. Add in the design and enginering colabrative of that group and you can get a pretty good product at a pretty good price.

For the record, I've been sailing for close to 30 years and have owned a number of sailboats including a 1982 Hunter 33 (great boat). I still crew aboard a couple of different boats for racing.

Dave


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

cardiacpaul said:


> Look, love your boat, its your boat. You bought it for your own reasons, I don't need to be justified in your decision.


I think that says it all, when it comes to forking out your cash. All companies, boat builders or otherwise, either improve, or go under, and it seems Hunter is making a solid effort to improve. Best of luck with your new boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I participated in the North American Ralley to the Carribean (NARC) several years ago and sailed from Newport to Bermuda. I was on a Swan 48. There were other boats making the trip including a Hunter 50. After passing the Gulf Stream We hit 15 to 20 foot seas and Gale Force winds (we clocked winds in the 45 to 60 range) for 36 hours. The Swans and J Boats handled things OK. But the one Hunter which was on its maiden voyage did not handle it well. All the chain plates showed rust stains from a few days at sea. The boom had snapped, stantions were bent. The Hunter limped in to Bermuda. The Hunter may be fine on inland or coastal waters but unless things changed a whole lot I would not go to sea in one.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't know if this has been bought up yet, as I skipped a few posts ( sorry ) but my father inlaw just got a 45'CC and yes the chainplates are massive, I assumed it had lot to do with the swept spar/No backstay rigging it has, is this correct


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

DawnDreamer...just noticed that Cruising World "appointed" the Benteau 49 as "Large Production Cruising Boat of the Year" ....picking it over the Hunter 49. 
Guess it wasn't Hunter's turn in that category this year. <g>


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Ok, I realize I may be a little late to the plate with this one. DD, yes there have been many "advances" in design over the past 30 years, but that doesn't mean anything. The biggest advance has been creature comforts below. Unfortunatly your Corian countertops do nothing to aid a boats sea-worthiness. I'm not saying it is a bad boat, just that if you want people to change their opinions of Hunter, you need to come up with something better than counter-tops and CAD design. I think it is safe to say that ALL boats today are CAD designed regardless of production style. I pass the Palmer Johnson building every weekend during the summer. They are "hand build" and I guarantee you they aren't "banging away" with anything to make their parts fit either.


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