# Anchoring for long term or in unprotected waters



## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

I've been wondering about keeping a boat anchored for several months, and not paying a marina. Is it possible? I guess it depends on the circumstances, and that's what the rest of this is about.

I've heard that certain places, such as populated places like California have time restrictions on anchoring. I understand that, but as far as I know most other places don't.

If you're not in an anchorage, you're supposed to have an anchor light. That can be done with a battery and solar panel, so that's no problem.

Then there's the weather. My assumption is that if the boat can be sailed in rough waters, that it can also be anchored in the same conditions with a proper anchor setup. Is there any chance that this could work in larger unprotected waters? It's amazing how small anchors are compared to the sizes of boats that they are used on. Making a bigger or better one would not be hard at all. Waves must get worse as the water gets shallower, but a long line isn't very expensive and a homemade mooring isn't hard to make.

Here in the Illinois river or Peoria Lake as they call part of it, there are some very wide areas that are far from the channel. I've seen a few pontoon boats beached in front of some people's houses, but nothing anchored out. Why don't people do it?

If I bought some $300 piece of junk boat, couldn't I keep it anchored, and if something happened, it really wouldn't be much of a loss.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> If I bought some $300 piece of junk boat, couldn't I keep it anchored, and if something happened, it really wouldn't be much of a loss.


Someone may expect YOU to remove it when it washes up on their front lawn.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

How long have you been here? Have you read anything on this forum?


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> How long have you been here? Have you read anything on this forum?


Yes ... there is a strong attitude against anyone trying to do things a different way to cut costs. Everyone is expected to have safety equipment which is only considered necessary in 1st world countries where it can be afforded, and everyone is expected to have a proper marina or mooring and be insured, even though it is not required by law.



> Someone may expect YOU to remove it when it washes up on their front lawn.


If it is properly secured that would never happen. What could happen is it would sink. If the mast was down and it sank in deep water, it would just join the many other pieces of junk on the sea floor. Nobody would ever know that anything happened. People spend more time being upset about about some harmless non oil polluting wreck than they did about Deepwater Horizon.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

This is the kind of thinking that give cruisers a bad name, suggest you take up another hobby.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Why would you want to stay so long in one place? A boat is to GO with.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

So long as it is legal to anchor long term where you choose, yes you can do so. Should your boat sink you are legally required to have it floated and hauled out. As well as pay the fines for any damage done, and the environmental fines for any pollution or sewage that is released. Should it wash ashore you are responsible for removal and any damage that occurs, including any cost for environmental fines.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

If we ignore for the moment, whether it's legal, responsible, reasonable or desirable, let's just look at the practicality.



steel said:


> It's amazing how small anchors are compared to the sizes of boats that they are used on. Making a bigger or better one would not be hard at all. Waves must get worse as the water gets shallower, but a long line isn't very expensive and a homemade mooring isn't hard to make.


I can only assume that you don't know much about anchors or moorings. BTW, it's unclear which you are proposing - If it's really a mooring, how are you going to set it in place?



steel said:


> If it is properly secured that would never happen.


Really? I can only assume that you don't know much about anchors or moorings.



steel said:


> What could happen is it would sink. If the mast was down and it sank in deep water, it would just join the many other pieces of junk on the sea floor. Nobody would ever know that anything happened.


You can see the contradiction between water shallow enough to anchor and deep enough to sink without a trace, right?

Could you do it? Maybe. 
Is it safe or practical? Under the scenario you describe, those two are probably mutually exclusive.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

manatee said:


> Why would you want to stay so long in one place? A boat is to GO with.


Because he's a BUM. He's not looking to "go" anywhere, he's looking to anchor his POS $300 "home" somewhere, so that he can beat the cost of land-based rent and taxes.

As I often say, I am a huge advocate of saving abandoned sailboats that are still in useful condition, often to the point that a lot of people think I take things too far. Then, someone like this guy comes along and completely exceeds even my tolerance for buying junk boats and acting (or proposing) totally irresponsible behavior.

I love the line "that would never happen".
Steel, just because the boat is "out of sight", doesn't mean that it's not an environmental hazard down at the bottom of the river. It also doesn't mean that you are not legally responsible for cleaning up your trash.

People like this: CNN Hero are cleaning up after people like you.

You asked why people don't do this-
Because it's impractical, unsafe, and irresponsible. Does that answer your question?

Get a clue, mate or take up golf.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I anchor a lot, almost always when I cruise and sometimes I anchor in settled weather on relatively unprotected waters. It can be done on one condition: To set sail immediately out of there at the first sign of stronger weather coming, no matter the hour of the day or the night.

It is not obviously what you are talking about. Even on protected waters there are not many places where a boat can be safely on anchor all year around, no matter the weather.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

boatpoker,
It would be funny if you were also participating in the Why is Sailing Dying Why are no New Young People Getting in to Sailing thread.

manatee,
Well I'm not alone, look at nearly every boat at the local marina.



> or sewage that is released.


Even if I anchor my boat next to the big water outlet with the big sign that says "COMBINED SEWER OVERFLOW", and it sinks there? This is ridiculous.

The funny thing is, a while back on this forum there was a thread about an abandoned boat somewhere in the north east US. The anchor rode was chafing and the owner could not be found. People on this forum were telling him to do the right thing and take the boat out at night and sink it. If pollution from a sunken fiberglass boat is so bad, then why suggest doing it?

Geoff54,
Two things at once: 
1)Why don't people anchor in the lake areas of the Illinois river where it is fairly protected.
2) Out of curiosity is it possible to do deep water moorings in unprotected waters?

As far as the lake goes, I guess it is possible with a proper anchor. As for deep water mooring, I'm curious as to what would happen.

How to get a mooring out there? Get a big barrel on deck and fill it with concrete little by little, with a big hook or chain at the top and some rebar to hold it togehter. Then push it over the side when it is finished. The deck may need to have wooden supports under the barrel. Could also get a big barrel with a hatch on the top and fill it with concrete as it floats in the water. Then float it out to the location and sink it. Stainless steel chains would go inside the concrete.

The attachment to the mooring on the boat can be reinforced.



> Because he's a BUM. He's not looking to "go" anywhere, he's looking to anchor his POS $300 "home" somewhere, so that he can beat the cost of land-based rent and taxes.


fascist! Why did you send me a friend request after all this? Were you trying to use the ignore feature instead?

PCP,
Of course no anchoring in the ice. Out of curiosity, if you had a strong mooring and a strong 200 meter long line to it out in water that is 30m deep, could you handle a storm? Or should I say: What would be required?

How about some technical numbers as to why thinks can't be done a certain way. "Impractical" doesn't tell me much. "The mooring would need to be able to hold half of the displacement of the boat" would.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Sorry but most of you post makes no sense.
Try not to endanger anyone else if you attempt this.
Let us know how it works out for you.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Yes steel, the friend request was accidental. I was replying from my phone.

I love how you call me a fascist, but didn't deny any of my statements.
You're a navigational hazard, to be avoided at all costs.
I love how you justify polluting, by claiming that you'll anchor near a sewage outflow.

"Hey, the municipal government is doing it, so it must be ok!"


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/70476-keeping-boat-water-free.html
Steel, you asked the same thing almost 3 years ago???


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

steel said:


> boatpoker,
> It would be funny if you were also participating in the Why is Sailing Dying Why are no New Young People Getting in to Sailing thread.
> 
> manatee,
> ...


I'd respond if I could figure out what you are saying


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

The OP might want to chat with the OP of this tread http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...-related/51684-well-my-day-really-sucked.html


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

Seaduction said:


> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/70476-keeping-boat-water-free.html
> Steel, you asked the same thing almost 3 years ago???


Thanks for finding that. I had completely forgotten about it.

Anyway, lots of people today seem to have a problem separating the hypothetical from the real thing.

There seems to be an unusual amount of attack over this issue. Is there a hidden reason behind this, like marinas losing thousands of dollars?

The fascist comment refers to a political and social system that I am completely opposed to. If someone is a fascist, we will really never agree on anything. People who think like this often are very well versed in the law, and frequently end up using circular reasoning over common law and morality issues by judging the law by the law.

I saw that thread about my day really sucked. It's a shame he didn't act faster to save the boat. If he had put a hole in the side for a water pump, a large pump on another boat next to it would probably be enough to overcome the water leaking in through the hatch boards etc., and the boat could have been refloated as the tide came in.

Now out of curiosity, is it possible to anchor or moor a boat in unprotected waters? I know that question results in a lot of ifs, like how strong the mooring is, how long the line going to the sea floor is, how big the boat is, what kind of boat it is, how big of a storm could come, and how deep the water is.

So for instance, a small surfaced submarine with fully sealed ballast tanks that had a very strong mooring could be left out in any storm and never sink. That's about a seaworthy as you can get (as long as nobody is on it). Now of course a boat couldn't handle as much.

Say there was a 30' steel hulled and well sealed boat out in 100' of water depth. The mooring and 700' of chain can handle 5000 pounds of working load. The chain is directly attached to the hull and will not break. Would it survive a hurricane?

This is just a hypothetical question. I hope there won't be more name calling and personal attackers over it. It is just information. It doesn't hurt anyone. Of course, people who are pro gun control etc. often think otherwise about the sharing of information.

It's okay if nobody wants to answer. But are more personal attacks over it really necessary?


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

steel said:


> This is just a hypothetical question...It's okay if nobody wants to answer.


steel - If you are asking for an engineering judgment then the parameters aren't well enough defined to provide an answer to your question.

Is the question truly hypothetical? Are you contemplating testing the scenario when you get a better defined answer? Or are you evaluating the potential for doing something similar as a means of shelter on the cheap?

In one of your posts you suggested using seven hundred feet of chain on a large deep mooring made of concrete with SS chain embedded for attachment. To hold a $300 5000 pound boat. Would you really spend close to $3000 for a chain to hold a $300 boat? And $12 a foot for the SS chain? And $50 for the concrete? And $200 or so for the shackles and swivels?

And you do know that a 55 gal drum of concrete weighs about 800 pounds&#8230;you gonna just roll it over the side? Gonna mix that concrete in a mixing pan on the foredeck and shovel it into the barrel? You gonna take down the lifelines roll it off or not have any lifelines?

And how would you get your potable water? And what would you use for heating? And for stove fuel? How would you handle your waste - holding tank/pump out or bucket over the side? Ready to pay that $1500 fine?

Gonna use solar/batteries for electricity? Gonna have refrigeration? The $300 boat gonna come with all that or are you gonna have to design and buy and install systems?

Would this $300 boat be mobile&#8230;have propulsion?

Gonna have a dink? Oar or engine powered? How do you get ashore when ice is on the lake but it's too thin to walk on and too thick to row through? Dinks with icebreaker bows are expensive.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Steel,

To answer your question, it is possible to anchor pretty much anything pretty much anywhere. But the size and cost of the mooring may far exceed the value of the boat. 

Assuming a typical 30' sailboat in the 15,000lbs range...
In a wind of 100mph (the minimum acceptable for hurricane anchorages)
Assuming concrete cubes

You would have a wind load of 7000lbs. In an unprotected anchorage you would need to double this to account for wave action (this is a guess, but seems reasonable). So we need 14,000lbs of holding power. 

Concrete blocks have been tested, and a 2000lbs concrete cube has about 800lbs of holding power. So to meet our 14,000lbs holding power, we would need about 35,000lbs of concrete. Concrete runs about 145lbs/foot^2, so we need a 242cubic foot block, so a solid block that is 6.25'x6.25'x6.25 should work. 


(1) numbers based on tests preformed (1995 and 2007) by BoatU.S. Foundation For Safety, MIT, Cruising World Magazine and Sarasota Sailing Squadron


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

steel said:


> Thanks for finding that. I had completely forgotten about it.
> 
> Anyway, lots of people today seem to have a problem separating the hypothetical from the real thing.
> 
> ...


The reason for the strong feelings, is because people usually don't ask questions like this without a serious intent to attempt to carry it out.

You were able to judge from a single response, that I am a fascist? Seems like you were pretty quick to jump on the "personal attack" bandwagon. Responsible sailors and boat owners are tired of being penalized for actions of the few, irresponsible, "floating homeless" like "Wandering Star".

At any rate, it seems that Fryewe and Stumble was able to answer your question in the most factual manner as to why this is fiscally unsound plan, and extremely difficult from an engineering standpoint.

Don't worry, we'll be here to remind you of what a bad idea this is, 3 year from now when you ask again.


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## daledog (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm in Maryland. Have a beautiful Tartan 37 which I cannot live aboard here in two adjoining counties (Talbot and Dorchester) because it is illegal to live aboard. You are the reason. People with no clue buying a boat to live on because they think it's a free way to live. No it isn't, not if you are going to keep a boat seaworthy. And if not seaworthy, as others stated, your boat isn't in a vacuum. If your rode breaks (and I somehow don't have confidence in your anchoring ability) and you damage other boats or the boat sinks you'll be in deep dodo. Here ya go....buy a cheap camper and park it in Walmart parking lots...it's free and you can use the restroom to take sponge baths...


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

To the OP:

[EDIT: I just noticed that SF pointed you to the same thread... Great minds...

More of the same EDIT: The primary issue is not that we're concerned that Marinas will miss your money, nor that you would potentially loose you $300 POS. But, that you if you loose the vessel and walk away (and from what I have read, I am guessing that you would), you would be contributing to further restrictions on the rest of us.]

Some time ago there was a poster here who owned a '72 Pearson 35 in South Carolina, and spent some time fixing it up. I think that the vessel was given to him by his family, but I am not sure. Members here were eager to help the kid, as he seemed grateful for advise, and he put some of it to use.










At one point he posted a thread asking about how to make a mooring out of 500lbs of scrap lead, and was advised, repeatedly, to spend the money, and get a real mooring. Unfortunately, this is one post where he did not heed the advise given him.

A couple of months later, he posted that he had been anchored out in this "nice little creek where I figured that the boat was nice and safe," when a squall blew him ashore, and sank his boat. The boat had been anchored there for over 2 months, and was uninsured.










He initially tried to salvage the vessel, and received many offers for help, and much advise from the SailNet community. However, all of his attempts were unsuccessful, as the boat had filled with silt. Eventually, he simply walked away from the vessel.










Owners who do this make life more difficult for the rest of us, because it causes navigation hazards, and prompts communities to pass restrictions on anchoring. What started out as a sympathetic community, turned into a hazing of the kid, and he never returned to SailNet.

The members here would simply like to avoid having you repeat the story of S/V Distant Star.

You can read about it here; http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/51684-well-my-day-really-sucked.html


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

Why on earth would anyone want to own such a pos anyway ? really, just so you could tell someone you own a sailboat? if you aren't going to us it for a few years just wait a few years to buy one there will still be $300.00 pieces of s--- then. Or maybe you could buy a derelict and haul it off to uncle Bubba's farm for a year or two....three birds, one stone. You own a sail boat,(bragging rights included) you don't have to pay the fascist marina owners (inherently evil) and you get one more pos out of the water....win, win, win !
I guess I can't understand why someone would want to take on the liability.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

We do have people doing exactly this in Maryland. You get a nasty POS taking up space and either sinking or breaking loose. Either way it is a danger to the rest of us and the "owners" are never good for the damages. Weems Creek has a few floating wrecks following this game plan. One $300 sailor ended up on the Naval Academy seawall afer Isabel and - oopsie - had no insurance or way to remove the boat. I knew people after the storm trying to chase down the owners of various POS boats that were in their yards or sometimes partly in their house!


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

fryewe and Stumble,

Thanks for the replies. It's the kind of information that I was wondering about. I enjoy thinking about a lot of things out of curiosity. I saw some videos on the Internet of boats in hurricanes and I wondered what kind of mooring arrangement they had. That was the basis for the unprotected waters question.

A mooring that must hold the displacement of the boat to handle a hurricane in unprotected waters is quite a lot!


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Deadweight anchors are terrible, and concrete just isn't that much heavier than water, so you need a lot. Making it out of steel would help substantially in reducing the necessary weight, but would significantly increase cost.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

steel said:


> fryewe and Stumble,
> 
> Thanks for the replies. It's the kind of information that I was wondering about. I enjoy thinking about a lot of things out of curiosity. I saw some videos on the Internet of boats in hurricanes and I wondered what kind of mooring arrangement they had. That was the basis for the unprotected waters question.
> 
> A mooring that must hold the displacement of the boat to handle a hurricane in unprotected waters is quite a lot!


Just out of curiosity, do you or have you ever owned or operated a boat? You sound like you know absolutely nothing about boats and even though you apparently monitor at least this one forum, you seem not to have absorbed any of the information available. You could not possibly have missed the multitude of anchoring, mooring and regulations threads regarding those things over the last few years, could you?


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## capt jgwinks (Sep 24, 2013)

Another thing to consider for mooring a boat for any length of time, even just a few days, is how do you get off the boat? You have to land your dinghy somewhere without getting popped for trespassing.
Where I moor my boat is a designated anchorage, anyone can anchor there for free, but you can't land your dinghy without paying the City their seasonal mooring fee (which is cheap at $475 a year and they own and maintain the moorings and facilities).
Btw thats Muskegon, Mich on the east shore of Lake Michigan.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

What will you do in the winter in central Illinois, assuming the rhode doesn't fail before the first cold snap?

Where will you get clean water?
How will you deal with your sewage?
How and where will you get ashore?


What will you do with this worthless liability when you inevitably give up?


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Lol cut this guy a break. 3 years ago my first post were about taking a sailboat through the panama canal on a cargo ship so we all start somewhere.

Its funny to read the first page however haha. You have a steep learning curve my friend.

Get a sunfish for a few hundo and trailer it until you learn a bit more about sailing. And no anchoring in unprotected waters is NEVER a GOOD idea. Its only done as last resort.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

At least 3 sailboats have gone ashore at Kits so far this winter. Wide open but the dreamers keep coming. The rest of us pay for the cleanup`.


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## Kielanders (Dec 8, 2011)

A little off topic, sorry.

What's the rule of thumb for anchor rode length? I have a 26' that I'm redoing, with a 5'10" draft. I know the former owners did some offshore stuff and a passage or two. They have about 300' of line and 50' of chain.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

The rule of thumb for anchor rode length should be covered in all basic boating classes, books, and presentations as a fundamental safety and seamanship issue. 

In its simplest form, the rode should be about 5 to 10 times longer than than depth of the water in which you are anchored. Less rode is for shorter periods of anchoring in calmer water while you are on or close to the boat; more rode for less ideal conditions. (Different guides will argue about the exact ratio.)

Different types of anchors tend to do better in some conditions and worse in others; matching the anchor to the local bottom type and other situations can make a big difference. Which anchor is best? Ah, be sure to put on your flame-proof suit before asking this question in a gathering of sailors.

The depth used for figuring rode length this should also add the height of your boat's freeboard/how high your bow cleats or winch are above water line.

Sometimes you have to use less rode because of a tight anchorage. 

Sometimes you can get away with somewhat less rode if you have an oversized anchor, heavy all-chain rode/extra weight attached, ideal bottom conditions, did a great job of setting the anchor, and have the latest super-premium high-tech anchor, and don't have stupid other boaters dragging their anchor over your anchor rode. 

Or, if circumstances are nasty, you might need more and will want heavier, better, longer, more ground tackle and rode. 

Having a "bullet-proof" connection of rode to boat is a big issue; your anchoring system is only as strong as its weakest link. Undersized cleats or bitts that aren't backed up properly (backing plates), sharp cleats or fairleads that can saw the rode, lack of snubbers, failure to "mouse" a shackle closed, lack of chafing gear, a wimpy swivel, etc., can spell death to your anchoring. 

Reversing currents or action of wind against tide can be a problem for some anchors. Some boats travel around a lot/"hunt" at anchor; a riding sail can often help calm this. Boats that have lots of windage will be more likely to drag than those where excess stuff has been stripped away, particularly if a big blow is forecast.

A double anchor system can help in some conditions, such as dealing with tidal currents or in a tight anchorage.

Anchoring successfully is really several steps; picking an anchorage that has good protection, depth, bottom types, room, absence of hazards, etc.; then matching anchor and rode to the anchorage, communicating between helm and the person on the bow, lowering and setting the anchor properly, checking to see that the anchor is really set, setting up chafing gear and snubbers as needed, monitoring for dragging, keeping an eye on weather changes that may affect your anchorage, maintaining the chafing gear, making sure the rode isn't fouled around the bottom of your boat, etc. 

All this is mostly about conventional anchoring; long-term moorings are another topic. 
Anchoring for storms is sort of an ultimate challenge and is a severe test of anchoring skill and equipment.

"Your anchor drag may vary." There are quite a few ways to screw up anchoring.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Scope rules are 7 times the sum of the depth at High Tide plus the height of your bow over the water. The height of your bow can make a serious difference in scope, especially in shallower water. Some say all chain can be reduced to 5X, however, I only do for short stays in relatively calm weather. 

Consider 10x for storm conditions.


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## UncleRuckus (Oct 14, 2010)

I once met a guy living on a delilect boat (Catalina 27') moored on the Atlantic side of Key Largo. The boat had no sails, enigine or head, I asked him about the head and he said he uses the bathroom at the gas station when he goes for his coffee in the morning. He had been living there for 15 years when I met him. I aslo asked him what about when a hurricane comes along and he said the boat is chained to 3 engine blocks and hasn't dragged yet, so it can be done. Should also add that guy would probably be living under a bridge if he didn't have the boat.


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## jpclowes (Jun 8, 2003)

I sail on a lake (dammed up river) in Central Ohio. If you are talking about leaving your boat in the water in IL I would strongly discourage you. You mentioned central IL so I'm assuming we are about the same latitude, and therefore have similar climate. Our lake freezes over, to some degree, every year. The City who controls the lake (Columbus) makes everyone remove all boats, docks and any other man-made objects from the water from November to April. Why? Because of ice. In the spring, when the ice melts and the rain comes harder, the ice starts to move. Anything in its way gets pushed down river. A few years ago, my sailing club left an old dock beside our ramp, with the idea that our Laser fleet could use it to launch to do some frostbite sailing. The lake froze before we had a chance to pull it out. Next spring it was GONE! There was no trace of it whatsoever. The Ice which held it in place so we couldn't get it out had taken it away, never to be seen again. We had the dock chained directly to our sea wall, so it wasn't like the anchor dragged. My own personal guess is that the ice caused the dock to break as it strained against the chains.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

The best I got is bow and stern anchors with at least 5 to 1 scope with vessel headed into prevailing winds. Use anchors at least 1.5 times larger than you think will hold it. Also say a couple hail mary's when you leave it checking on it weekly is needed. To insure it doesn't have problems


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

steel said:


> ...
> 
> If it is properly secured that would never happen. What could happen is it would sink. If the mast was down and it sank in deep water, it would just join the many other pieces of junk on the sea floor. Nobody would ever know that anything happened. People spend more time being upset about about some harmless non oil polluting wreck than they did about Deepwater Horizon.


Never say never.

You'll more than likely not be anchoring "on the sea floor" so if your boat sinks in a river or bay where you are probably going to be if you are living aboard, yes it would go to the bottom and yes you would become a hazard to navigation because the bottom won't be nearly as far down as the middle of the Gulf and more than likely you'll be fined for polluting the waterway with your fuel and waste that will leak out.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Steele's plans for a boat are a contentious topic for most of us but please remember to refrain from name calling and personal attacks. If he forgot that he asked the same question three years ago, the same may happen again and it may all come to nothing.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

This is an interesting subject regardless of the OP's intent.

i've often wondered if a boat could survive a blow anchored out. For example:
Hurricane/Storm Sandy; if you knew that your boat was doomed for certain destruction, left in a marina. Would you take a chance and anchor it out? proper depth, lots of scope and lots of anchors in series or separate?

I responded to Sandy (the day after) and walked 70 percent of staten island's shoreline to survey damage and check on people. It was a sad experience walking thru marinas. I felt at the time the boats were better off at sea. (or anchored out) I tracked commercial ships that rode out the storm under power just outside the city. That was amazing.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

By the way Steel

Most states have stringent mooring restrictions. IE. 
Within so many feet of land
OFF of property YOU own
Pass thru a local zoning/engineering/code board to meet local requirements


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Unless one is in a very secure hurricane hole, I don't think its likely that anchoring out would be any better. I agree that you are far from guaranteed when tied to the dock. Our floating docks came within a foot or so of floating off their pilings, due to surge. 

For that matter, think about the additional scope necessary with a 9 foot surge. If you are anchored in 10 ft of water, you will nearly double your need for scope. Add any significant fetch and you're odds aren't very good.

Tied to a hurricane moorings in a very secure hurricane hole is pretty good, assuming you have excellent chafing gear and don't break off. There just aren't many of these.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Thanks to the OP for asking this question, it is something I have been curious about.

Unfortunately there weren't many (any ?) good responses to the question.

Obviously anchoring in unprotected waters is done, especially in the South Pacific, at least for short periods of time. If it wasn't possible nobody could go to Pitcairn Island which has no protected anchorages.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

steel said:


> If I bought some $300 piece of junk boat, couldn't I keep it anchored, and if something happened, it really wouldn't be much of a loss.


As I read this thread, as much as I am uncomfortable with the tone, I somewhat understand the frustration on both sides. To the original question quoted above, yes, it is possible to anchor a boat in ways that it can be considered reasonably safe. There are mooring areas all over the country, many of which are quite exposed, were people routinely leave their boats unattended. As some have suggested, this is not as simple as it may sound. The anchoring system needs to be robust, you need a reliable way to tie the anchor rode to the boat, and you need ways to avoid the anchor lines from chafing through. It may be possible to do that inexpensively, but it will require some ingenuity and forethought.

Back in the early 1970's, when I graduated from college, I bought an old wooden boat for $400 and fixed her up to live on. 


In those days, a lot of boats anchored for free in the open rodestead that was outside of the barrier islands at Dinner Key in Florida. Those were less regulated times, but even back then, that anchorage was known by the nickname of 'the pirates'. The pirates could be very rough since it was open to winds and waves off of Biscayne Bay and the Atlantic several miles beyond. It could also be very crowded in there with boats of all sizes, costs and with skippers of a wide range of experience levels. It was not all that unusual for people to anchor there for months and years at a time. It was not unusual for boats to drag and cause problems.

Many of us were on very tight budgets and would come up with comparatively inexpensive ways to moor our boats. The standard set up for the budget challenged was a mix of scavanged anchors and heavy automotive engine parts. Typically, in the 12 foot depth of water in the pirates, the small boat set up was that there would be a multiple anchor set-up with two or three anchors spread out in at least two directions with a huge amount of scope. Typically the anchors were set in the bottom and then perhaps 30-50 feet from the anchor would be some kind of very heavy engine part(s) (40-60 lbs) and then there would be another 50-60 feet of line to the boat.

The heavy engine part(s) would act a snubber to take the impact in the anchor line so that almost no load was placed on the anchor itself, and what load that did pull on the anchor occurred close to parallel with the bottom. This set-up was seen as not requiring chain since chain was expensive, but it did take a lot of line.

The enemy of any such rig is chafe. The rope of choice in those days was cheap quality, over sized, three strand nylon. There would be a thimble spliced in where the rode was shackled to the anchor. It might have leather stiched on. There was typically an eye splice pigtail spliced into the rode where the engine part(s) was attached, and the engine part was typically attached with galvanized chain, which also had leather chafe gear where the chain was attached to the eye splice. (The leather came from buying really beat up old shoes at the Goodwill. In those days there as a nearly free bin of almost too bad to wear shoes.)

Chafe was a very serious problem where the lines came aboard the boat and at the cleats. In those days, we used to be able to get scraps of fire hose from local fire departments and that was cut open and stitched in multiple layers to the anchor line to make up the chafe gear of choice. These days I use very heavy duty ballistic nylon that can be bought at a fabric store.

As a community no matter how meager our boats, we all watched out for each other and our own boats. There were always boats which would try to drag ashore in storms and we would pitch in to prevent that or to free them when we could.

So, "If I bought some $300 piece of junk boat, couldn't I keep it anchored?" Sure, it can be done.

But that comes to the second point that came up in this thread. Many of us who are sailors, have trememdous respect for the natural world we live in. And out of that respect, we feel a very strong reponsibility for minimizing the negative impact of our passage through that natural world. While we cannot easily change what goverments, businesses, or individuals do on shore, or how they impact the environment, we can change our own patterns of behavior and can feel a very strong personal responsibility to handle our lives and our boats in a way that does not damage the natural environment or leave trash behind for someone else to deal with.

We understand that while this lifestyle may seem to be about our personal responsibility and our personal sense of freedom, what we do and how it is percieved impacts more than just us. it impacts our fellow sailors, and how all of us are perceived, let alone the impact on the bigger community of man and nature. We understand when one of us acts irresponsibly, and becomes a poster child for recklessness, we sailors all may suffer under the punitive pendulum-swing laws which are levied against all boaters, not just the individual who allowed his poor judgement to temper the non-sailor's view of the sailing community.

So, while some of the comments above may strike you as being fascistic, they come out of a sense that many of us share, that with personal freedom, comes a personal responsibilty not to trash the world we live in, and to try to not to be an imposition on others, to give as much (or more) than we receive. In my mind there is nothing inherently wrong with buying a cheap old boat and keeping it on a mooring, but I, like many above, suggest that the statement, " if something happened, it really wouldn't be much of a loss." suggests a lack of personal responsibility, and an perhaps incomplete understanding of what it would cost to clean up a wreck, pay damages, and fines. It also ignores that sometimes the damage is irreparable/irreplaceable.

The point being that if you choose to buy a wreck and anchor it out, do it responsibly. Think through how you will anchor the boat very carefuly, pay attention to the chafe and water in the bilge. Pull up your anchors and inspect them regularly. Get the boat out of the water if there is ice which can cut through an anchor line very quickly. Because in the end, should you lose your boat, it could be a much bigger loss to you and all of us than the value of the boat itself.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

With respect to the OP question, I have spent a lot of time in open roadsteads - more than I would like. As Jeff H states sometimes there are no alternatives.



benesailor said:


> i've often wondered if a boat could survive a blow anchored out. For example:
> Hurricane/Storm Sandy; if you knew that your boat was doomed for certain destruction, left in a marina. Would you take a chance and anchor it out? proper depth, lots of scope and lots of anchors in series or separate?


My hurricane strategy is to get the heck off the dock and away from things that might punch holes in my boat. I've weathered near misses of four or five hurricanes and Superstorm Sandy (in Chesapeake Bay, which mostly dodged that bullet) at anchor. I'll do it again.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

SV Auspicious

How bad was the surge during sandy and what anchoring arrangement did you use? Did you ride it out? I'm thinking you did. As stated previously sometimes it's unavoidable to be in a open roadstead.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I think Jeff said it much better than I could. Can you do it, perhaps, should you do it absolutely not. Especially not in Illinois. If you want to live like your in a third world why not take it to the third world? I am not being nasty, but we here know better than to pollute, leave sunken boats and what not. There are places where they do not have the resources to do better, and do not fully understand what effect they are going to have on the environment. We here have the benefit to understand that it is not the right thing to do. It really is about being responsible for your own actions. Sure our government may make the choice to discharge pollution all the time, but that does not release us of our responsibility to leave the earth in a better condition than when we came to her. We don't say well they pollute so I will to, instead we should say how can we stop that pollution.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> But that comes to the second point that came up in this thread. Many of us who are sailors, have trememdous respect for the natural world we live in. And out of that respect, we feel a very strong reponsibility for minimizing the negative impact of our passage through that natural world. While we cannot easily change what goverments, businesses, or individuals do on shore, or how they impact the environment, we can change our own patterns of behavior and can feel a very strong personal responsibility to handle our lives and our boats in a way that does not damage the natural environment or leave trash behind for someone else to deal with.
> 
> We understand that while this lifestyle may seem to be about our personal responsibility and our personal sense of freedom, what we do and how it is percieved impacts more than just us. it impacts our fellow sailors, and how all of us are perceived, let alone the impact on the bigger community of man and nature. We understand when one of us acts irresponsibly, and becomes a poster child for recklessness, we sailors all may suffer under the punitive pendulum-swing laws which are levied against all boaters, not just the individual who allowed his poor judgement to temper the non-sailor's view of the sailing community.
> 
> So, while some of the comments above may strike you as being fascistic, they come out of a sense that many of us share, that with personal freedom, comes a personal responsibilty not to trash the world we live in, and to try to not to be an imposition on others, to give as much (or more) than we receive. In my mind there is nothing inherently wrong with buying a cheap old boat and keeping it on a mooring, but I, like many above, suggest that the statement, " if something happened, it really wouldn't be much of a loss." suggests a lack of personal responsibility, and an perhaps incomplete understanding of what it would cost to clean up a wreck, pay damages, and fines. It also ignores that sometimes the damage is irreparable/irreplaceable.


Ahhh, the world would be a far better place, if it were filled with more like you, my friend 

South Florida is now littered with barely floating pieces of (bird)crap, such as this POS moored near The Lorelei in Islamorada...










The taxpaying owners of expensive waterfront property will rightfully have their way in the end, and we will all wind up paying a heavy price for the irresponsibility of a few... Perhaps the saddest thing, is that there already exist legal statutes to deal with this plague, but lax to nonexistent enforcement will only result in more restrictions being put on the books...


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

benesailor said:


> SV Auspicious
> 
> How bad was the surge during sandy and what anchoring arrangement did you use? Did you ride it out? I'm thinking you did. As stated previously sometimes it's unavoidable to be in a open roadstead.


The surge on Chesapeake Bay during Sandy was trivial. I've seen surge up to eight feet in earlier storms and I just keep letting chain out.

In the past, I have ridden out storms aboard while Janet stayed in the house. In Sandy after two days without power she looked down the basement stairs to see a laundry basket drift past. *sigh* Now our plan is for both of us to stay on the boat, at anchor, in major storms.

Janet will make sure I pump out the dinghy at the earliest time and trudge in to check on the house while she stays aboard where it is warm, dry, there is power and Internet and TV.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

SVAuspicious said:


> ...
> Janet will make sure I pump out the dinghy at the earliest time and trudge in to check on the house while she stays aboard where it is warm, dry, there is power and Internet and TV.


Not to mention some pretty good food more than likely.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

DRFerron said:


> Not to mention some pretty good food more than likely.


Definitely better than in the house with no power! It's an all-electric (*shudder*) kitchen...

On Auspicious there are always Good Eats.


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## HMSVictory (Mar 14, 2016)

Ajax_MD said:


> manatee said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you want to stay so long in one place? A boat is to GO with.
> ...


What an *******...you and other wealthy yachters don't just own the water You can't decide that it's only for your recreation and pleasure. But my real problem is that you criticize this guy just because he is poor obviously needs to save some money in order to survive or wants to save money maybe so that he can better himself. As long as he's properly anchored and following all the laws Taking care of his boat and gear well enough not interfering with shipping lanes? I don't see why anyone like you even has a right to have an opinion on this. God didn't make you king of the water to decide who gets to use it an how. Don't you think that you are a danger to the environment with your petroleum using car And generally excessive lifestyle? ?Anyone in the 40+ foot motoryacht pollutes more in a few hours than a sunken sailboat will until all the oil finish trickling out of the engine years later. And I'm pretty much sure that anyone who lives on land has a bigger impact on the environment than a humble pauper at sea. Also by the way consider that more of the earth is covered by Sea That goes all the way down many miles so because there is so much less of it actually pollution on land is more serious by quantity of pollution


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

This is your first post? You don't know anything about me.

You're half-right- I'm an *******, but I'm not a rich yottie, unless you think a 43 year old, dirty, worn-down sloop is "high living."

I know times are tough and people are looking for places to live, but guys like the PO (this thread is 2yo BTW) are responsible for making life tough for law abiding sailors.

You can be down on your luck, broke and living aboard a crap boat *without* being a total moron, littering, polluting and being a hazard to navigation by securing your boat incorrectly.

I know, because I've done it!

I'll quote myself from the earlier post- Get a clue, mate!


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Maybe it's just me, but as Easter approaches, do the resurrections seem to get more prevalent?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I think people are lashing out from cabin fever. Everyone's spending too much time on the forums, and getting itchy.
I know I am.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Ajax_MD said:


> I think people are lashing out from cabin fever. Everyone's spending too much time on the forums, and getting itchy.
> I know I am.


We have had bad weather here for a week and I am climbing the walls. 

Very un-Caribbean.

I am off to St Barts for the 100+ footer Bucket races this weekend and an Easter cruise so maybe I will find my Zen on some wave.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Victory is probably a once and done-er but that doesn't make the post any less wrong. Ajax had his say as was his due since he was slammed. Please let's not keep it going.


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

It looked like a troll to me. Get a quick response and go back under the bridge. At my marina, btw, we have a number of people that would be homeless without their boats. They are required to keep them seaworthy along with the rest of us.They are just more inventive, and the boats usually much smaller.


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## Matt (Aug 11, 2015)

im 33, by the time i retire the whole sailing lifestyle will be taxed to hell and banned nearly everywhere because of people finding loopholes in the law. sometimes common courtesy needs to be observed above and beyond the law. following the letter of the law simply means if you could do less you would. atleast with many people


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## HMSVictory (Mar 14, 2016)

newt said:


> It looked like a troll to me. Get a quick response and go back under the bridge. At my marina, btw, we have a number of people that would be homeless without their boats. They are required to keep them seaworthy along with the rest of us.They are just more inventive, and the boats usually much smaller.


If you're talking about me I was googling the size an anchor should be for long-term stays and this thread came up, and I saw this guy's response and I was just so Appalled I felt compelled to join the forum ( of course I have other better things to discuss but that post just really p-o'd me.

True may be a lot of anchorites will never be real sailors but that doesn't mean we should rob them of their way of life and livelihood around my way a lot of people who live at anchor are smalltime fisherman for example and need to be close to the water it's a whole lifestyle for them. And they serve the dock queen owners with amazing fresh fish they couldn't get anywhere else. So everyone has their place in the harbor.

Alongside that all of the paranoid( of rough around the edges anchorites) boat owners of the Marinas are trying to blame all of the water pollution on the anchor dwellerswhen in fact there are far less of them than doc Queens and they pollute far less


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

No one here cares much if you anchor out forever. Heck leave your boat anchored out for years and you will join a pretty select club of cruisers that have gone long periods of time between tying up in port. 

But that isn't what this thread is about. This is about a guy who wanted to buy a derelict boat and anchor it out. With the expectation that if/when it sank he could just walk away from it with no consequences. Well just like in every other part of life leaving your mess behind and refusing to pick it up isn't acceptable. Besides pushing the bill for your mess of on someone else, it's this attitude that has caused so many states to place these anchoring restrictions in the first place. 

There isn't a cruiser anywhere that's likes anchoring restrictions, and it's this assumption by a few that if the boat sinks they will just walk away that has caused them. I like live aboard in my marina, I like liveaboards who are doing it on small boats. What I don't like are the derelict boats that stink, look like a trash heap, and are populated by meth heads (seriously had a guy here cooking meth on his trash heap) who when the boat sinks just up and walk away.


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

Stumble said:


> There isn't a cruiser anywhere that's likes anchoring restrictions, and it's this assumption by a few that if the boat sinks they will just walk away that has caused them. I like live aboard in my marina, I like liveaboards who are doing it on small boats. What I don't like are the derelict boats that stink, look like a trash heap, and are populated by meth heads (seriously had a guy here cooking meth on his trash heap) who when the boat sinks just up and walk away.


And that my friends is the quote of the day. Nice Summary.


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## HMSVictory (Mar 14, 2016)

newt said:


> Stumble said:
> 
> 
> > There isn't a cruiser anywhere that's likes anchoring restrictions, and it's this assumption by a few that if the boat sinks they will just walk away that has caused them. I like live aboard in my marina, I like liveaboards who are doing it on small boats. What I don't like are the derelict boats that stink, look like a trash heap, and are populated by meth heads (seriously had a guy here cooking meth on his trash heap) who when the boat sinks just up and walk away.
> ...


Just last week a boat broke loose in the harbor and banged up and down an entire pier of hundred grand minimum boats. Didn't cause too much damage apparently , it was after all a keel sawed off, dismasted23 footer or so. But t was inhabited by crackheads. Hundreds of Roaches infested it as well. But here's the catch. Before them, it was inhabited by crackheads who had AIDS, and thousands of roaches . So actually they made an improvement. If it wasn't for them, the boat would have been vacant when it broke loose(was there anyway) and no one could have done any kind of shoving off or putting down another anchor at all.


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## cshrimpt (Jun 8, 2015)

steel said:


> Yes ... there is a strong attitude against anyone trying to do things a different way to cut costs.


If the harbor master thinks it's a derelict, he will remove it at your expense.

If it breaks loose and damages another boat, you will be sued.

If it sinks and does any kind of real or perceived environmental damage, it will cost you at least $20K in fines and fees.

Is the risk worth it for a $300 junker?

-Shrimp


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

A Sierra Club motto is, "Leave Nothing Behind But Your Footsteps". I've heard many times, "Leave Nothing Behind But Your Wake".

PS, Yes, it'a little more complex than that, but the spirit is the same. Especially about large items like oil spills or derelict boats.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I'm starting to think that HMSVictory and SailorNoob share the same account. Starting to smell a troll again.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Let's not be hasty.


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

Donna_F said:


> Let's not be hasty.


Of course not, I'd rather be tasty. BBQ anyone?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

It's pretty amazing how long derelict boats stick around. GRP just about forever. Even steel takes decades and decades. Sure when they sink they may serve as a nidus for marine growth and eventually a reef if climate change allows. But more often you see carribean shores polluted with these derelicts and inhabited by vermin. Guess Florida wants to prevent that.
Those that sink add innumerable toxins from their batteries, lubricants, and residual fuel. "owners" are held harmless as they are judgment proof given they commonly have no assets to go after or there is no line of provable ownership. 
Here I think Florida is taking the wrong tactic. Interdiction should occur before sinking. Any boat that cannot travel let's say 20m under its own power is confiscated and impounded. Owner is given 30d to make it seaworthy, submit a plan to make it seaworthy ( follow up required) or arrange removal to inland facilities. After that it's owned by the state. State either repurposes it ( artificial reef, fill, road material etc.) but at least removes toxic materials. Of course if there is no proof of ownership state owns it right off.
Coastal home owners are happy. Mariners are happy. Environmentalists are happy. Fish are happy. In the end would cost the state less than the current rigamarole.
Lots of people take good care of their boats and surroundings with limited resources but no deficiency of hard work, pride and skill. This is not a class war thing. It's a human thing where adults should take responsibility for themselves.

Lastly would note many New England towns have rules inforced by their harbomasters requiring a certain type of mooring ( now commonly a screw) equipped with specified chain and pendant and serviced at specified intervals. Placement is controlled and restricted. Long term anchoring is not encouraged. Expect them to visit if you're there for what they think is too long. Any anchoring is limited to specific fields.


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## HMSVictory (Mar 14, 2016)

Indeed, many boats are aground / beached / half sunk around the Miami harbors. I visited one last night actually. It has bronze winches on it and I was tempted to take them







z but they are still someone's property it would seem. Somehow the prestigious local sailing club still affords the wreckage one of their insanely high demand mooring balls . If it was not on one I certainly would have taken the winches and probably many before me.The boat has a ticket on it dated months ago saying that if not removed in 30 days it would be towed or smashed at owners expense. But of course that hasn't happened yet. So I guess they are not that serious about those promises. Oil leakage I can see as a problem, but battery acids not so much. Of all the derelicts I've explored and helped clean up( admittedly less than a dozen) I've never once seen a battery. You see there is a natural solution out in the Miami harbors... People who need things come on a dark night and take them and batteries are at a premium. In a way those pesky anchorites are actually being of use scavenging off half sunken derelicts


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Seen batteries snorkeling so idontknow. Hear Pb oxides are pretty toxic.


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## HMSVictory (Mar 14, 2016)

cshrimpt said:


> steel said:
> 
> 
> > Yes ... there is a strong attitude against anyone trying to do things a different way to cut costs.
> ...


Serious question what does an absolutely destitutely poor drug addict have to lose from being Sued? I guess the government might take some action if you failed to pay your environmental finds that is if they could find you ... That classic adage comes to mind you can sue but good luck collecting

This man's only asset that I'm aware of was the broken loose boat that was bought for just a few hundred dollars. Before that he lived in a park for a few years. Not that he didn't know his way around boats he had lived and worked on them for 20 to 25 years


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I paid my moorge for years while building by collecting dead batteries. But it was never worth my time to collect the submerged pb reef that surrounds many of the CG navigation towers. Guess it was easier to dump than pack when renewing .Attitudes may have changed somewhat ,eh?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

HMSVictory said:


> ....The boat has a ticket on it dated months ago saying that if not removed in 30 days it would be towed or smashed at owners expense. But of course that hasn't happened yet. So I guess they are not that serious about those promises.....


In the US, every state is different, but even a derelict is someone else's property, so they define a due process for when anyone, including a municipality, can just take it. Personal property rights are a huge deal here. Often, all it takes is the slightest objection from the owner and a judge will delay the action. Not only is one presumed innocent, but a huge benefit of the doubt is provided before your property is taken, in most circumstances. If not a due process problem, the next issue is the expense of taking the vessel, and in some cases, the new obligation to now look after it, while the owner gets the right to redeem it.

In the end, it's a nightmare and most go untouched as a result.

Then, land lubbers, who grossly outnumber sailors, pass laws preventing anyone from anchoring their in the first place.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

HMSVictory said:


> The boat has a ticket on it dated months ago saying that if not removed in 30 days it would be towed or smashed at owners expense.


I agree with Minnewaska about the implications of personal property rights. A second important factor is funding. It is easier for politicians to pass laws than to make difficult budget decisions. That puts bureaucrats and administrators (which should not be considered bad words) in the position of having to make prioritization decisions on the basis of what funding they do have. In this case that means dealing with the actively sinking and leaking boats first. The sunk boats come next and then the floating ones.


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## HMSVictory (Mar 14, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> In the US, every state is different, but even a derelict is someone else's property, so they define a due process for when anyone, including a municipality, can just take it. Personal property rights are a huge deal here. Often, all it takes is the slightest objection from the owner and a judge will delay the action. Not only is one presumed innocent, but a huge benefit of the doubt is provided before your property is taken, in most circumstances. If not a due process problem, the next issue is the expense of taking the vessel, and in some cases, the new obligation to now look after it, while the owner gets the right to redeem it.
> 
> In the end, it's a nightmare and most go untouched as a result.
> 
> Then, land lubbers, who grossly outnumber sailors, pass laws preventing anyone from anchoring their in the first place.


EDIT: the FWC has been around and a barge was hired to crush about 30 boats this season in one weekend all around the harbor. Summer crushing in anticipation of hurricanes likely soon, and there are more to go. Luckily for the owners, although it is a 1st degree misdemeanor to abandon a vessel in FL biscayne bay, (according to an FWC officer I talked to recently) and the people are criminally charged and brought to court if they don't come, they are only fined a measly 5K which is nothing for a complete salvage/removal job. On the other hand I know someone who was charged 25K for a 70 footer in fort lauderdale


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