# Another newbe sank their boat



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

They sold everything and bought a boat to sail the world. It sank on day two.

The part I don't understand is the keel ripping off.


----------



## WharfRat (Aug 4, 2015)

Detachable keels are the diabolical handiwork of the Catamaran Illuminati, if certain Sailnet sources are to be believed...


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Rust/corrosion/rot?

At least the Walker Bay survived.


----------



## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

Sailforlife

Not everyone can afford the best boat in the world like you.


----------



## skipmac (Oct 31, 2007)

sailforlife said:


> 28 foot boat to circumnavigate , I don't know much about boats but isn't that ambitious in a boat that size ? Specially a 1969 Columbia. I read Columbia made cheap crappy sailboats and everyone I talked to said stay away from them. I do hope they get back on their feet this is a very sad story.


Not sure who you were talking to but from all I know, Columbia built pretty good boats.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Hitting stuff may have a lot to do with unsuccessful aspirations.


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

90 bucks, no job but they have a dog. Why is it that people who can't afford insurance so often have pets.

Rant complete. Over and out.


----------



## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

skipmac said:


> Not sure who you were talking to but from all I know, Columbia built pretty good boats.


Like most things in sailing I have noticed , it all depends on who you ask. Same with my boat some say great boat the Cadillac blah blah some say horrible boat slow and rolls to much. So I guess tomato , tomato, hope they get back on their feet soon. But yea even my broker told me they were cheaply made and heavy, slow sailing boats. I don't know enough about boats to know if there is any truth to it.

:2 boat:


----------



## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

paulinnanaimo said:


> Sailforlife
> 
> Not everyone can afford the best boat in the world like you.


My boat was really cheap.

:boat :


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Sometimes I find that confidence can be bolstered by just asking for another opinion. I simply ask "Cooper ,what would you do in this sit uation ?" Golden retrievers are known to always agree with you.


----------



## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I don't understand what they could have hit there other than the shoal between 3 and 5 where it drops from 10 feet to 2 feet if your not in the channel. If it was a Northwest Wind with a swell it could have picked the boat up and dropped it on the shoal when the wave broke.Wouldn't think that would rip the keel off entirely though. Well at least Remmy the Pug made it out O.K. I bet he tells all his buddies how stupid humans can be ........ Can you believe those stupid humans couldn't even smell that shoal? They make such a big deal about me peeing on the sole. I don't know why we tolerate these humans anyway. Dogs best friend my arse.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

They're young. Either they've got it out of their systems, or will learn for next time.


----------



## dinosdad (Nov 19, 2010)

They have no money, but they were going to sail around the Caribbean? What were they going to live on, coconuts scavenged on the beaches? Granted they might have had plans to stay in key west and get jobs there to get cruising cash, but if I only had ninety dollars to my name, I wouldn’t be leaving the dock....


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

dinosdad said:


> They have no money, but they were going to sail around the Caribbean? What were they going to live on, coconuts scavenged on the beaches? Granted they might have had plans to stay in key west and get jobs there to get cruising cash, but if I only had ninety dollars to my name, I wouldn't be leaving the dock....


You don't understand. In school they were taught everyone gets a medal. No one ever loses and your dreams always come true. Besides You Tube videos show how easy it is to sail. Who needs experience? NIKE says: "Just do it!"


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

My take home points to offer as advice to the next clutch of newbies: instead of uograding the boat go out and gaddamn learn to fricken sail!

So many buy project boats and do not take them out until this happens.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

dinosdad said:


> They have no money, but they were going to sail around the Caribbean? What were they going to live on, coconuts scavenged on the beaches? Granted they might have had plans to stay in key west and get jobs there to get cruising cash, but if I only had ninety dollars to my name, I wouldn't be leaving the dock....


Yes so easy to live in Key West such a low cost base.

Living the dream takes a lot more Proper Planning.

In the old days Darwin was allowed to thin the herd. . .


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

In the comment section of one of the articles on this - was written that the channel was not dredged, and this was causing problems including a commercial fishing boat getting stuck there.


----------



## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

depth sounders actually work. must learn to use one before sailing out anywhere.
also perhaps check keel affixment issues. i know 1969 cal 30 can slam a shoal and survive... columbia are tanks also, thought they would as well..musta been some keel bolt issues.


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Unfortunately, this couples' predicament is a consequence of the "Just Do It" crowd/mentality. The sailing/cruising life style seems so simple/easy to those that haven't actually done much, if any, sailing or boating, and they envision being anchored off of tropical isles while they enjoy sundowners as their freshly caught fish sizzles on the grill. Perhaps once in a great while but rarely and certainly not without a great deal of trial and tribulation beforehand.

That the process involves far more education in many and diverse disciplines than many realize, or can even imagine absent any practical experience is, in part, the explanation for these failures. In this case, a navigational failure due, undoubtedly, to lack of foresight and lack of preparation. The deterioration/shoaling of the channel to John's Pass is well known and was well advertised, in particular with a USCG LTM in Dcember:



> FLORIDA - TAMPA BAY TO PORT RICHEY - JOHNS PASS CHANNEL: Johns Pass Channel Buoy 3.
> All vessels operating *with more than a 3ft draft* are advised to use extreme caution when transiting inbound and outbound of Johns Pass. Due to an encroaching shoal to the north in the vicinity of Johns Pass Buoy 3 (LLNR 25585.5).


The foregoing was available on the CG's navigation pages, in the notices posted on the Salty Southeast Cruisers Net; and, in two different locations/warnings in Active Captain's "Live Maps" pages. I'm fairly certain that the young man didn't do any research on the navigational imperatives of his proposed voyage or he might have known what to expect and might have planned better, including not attempting that entrance after dark at an unknown state of the tide.

The comment about the "authorities" not having dredged that channel is a non-starter in my view. There are simply so many channels and such limited resources to deal with them all following a major storm, it is a practical impossibility to get them all, or any particular one, handled in a "timely manner".

The "good news" is that the couple is young, evidently still healthy tho' undoubtedly depressed and disappointed, and that they have friends, family and even many strangers that have rallied to their aid. They will overcome the set-back and be wiser for it in the future. Others should (but likely won't) see their situation as an object lesson and act accordingly.

FWIW...


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The Columbia in question probably was a Columbia 29 which was a pretty nice S&S design. They originally had a bolt on lead keel, and later had an encapsulated iron keel. By 1969 this was probably the encapsulated iron keel. if that is the case, it is likely that the ballast was no longer bonded to the encapsulation envelope which very common on encapsulated keels of this era. 

Columbias were anything but tanks. They were crudely built and their glass work was terrible. The bottom of a keel encapsulation typically is particularly bad glass work since this area is very difficult for the lamination crew to reach. Once the bond between the ballast and the encapsulation envelope is broken, the bottom of the envelope is exposed to very high forces on a routine basis and so becomes weakened over time due to fatigue. 

Ultimately, it is highly possible that it the bottom of the envelope failed and the ballast came out through the opening. That is what happened to my family's Pearson Vanguard. 

It is also possible that this boat still had a bolt on keel, in which case the nearly 50 year old keel bolts may have failed. 

Jeff


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Jeff_H said:


> The Columbia in question probably was a Columbia 29 which was a pretty nice S&S design.


From the pictures it is definitely a Columba 28, which was a Crealock design, not a S&S design. There were 3 keel designs over the years on this model, but all of them were a stout fiberglass stub with a bolted on ballast keel.

There were seven 9" lag bolts holding the keel, but after 49yrs, these would be suspect.

Mark


----------



## CrispyCringle (Jul 30, 2017)

Although loosing "everything" with their boat truly sux, they have a few things going for them. First, they are in their twenties. Decades to recover. And although loosing ten grand would piss me off, they will hopefully look back on this incident with a few laughs thinking back on when 10k combined net worth was all they had. In real terms, they got off lucky. When I first read the headline I thought someone who had just retired, sold everything to buy their dream boat, and sunk it two days in with no insurance, etc. 

Hopefully their next boat purchase and adventure will be with a little more wisdom and experience. Or at the very least, more luck. Leaving with only $90 in their pocket to sail the sea in a 28 footer seems ill planned from the get go.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

colemj said:


> From the pictures it is definitely a Columba 28, which was a Crealock design, not a S&S design. There were 3 keel designs over the years on this model, but all of them were a stout fiberglass stub with a bolted on ballast keel.
> 
> There were seven 9" lag bolts holding the keel, but after 49yrs, these would be suspect.
> 
> Mark


I had not seen any pictures of the boat in question and had only read one article My comments had been responding to the description in the article that described the boat as a 30 foot 1969 Columbia. If you have seen pictures and the boat is a Columbia 28, then you are right that this is a bolt on keel. I personally would not call any of the glass work on a Columbia as particularly stout, but agree that it is probably a keel bolt failure.

Jeff


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Jeff_H said:


> I had not seen any pictures of the boat in question and had only read one article My comments had been responding to the description in the article that described the boat as a 30 foot 1969 Columbia. If you have seen pictures and the boat is a Columbia 28, then you are right that this is a bolt on keel. I personally would not call any of the glass work on a Columbia as particularly stout, but agree that it is probably a keel bolt failure.
> 
> Jeff


The article I saw was a UK publication with lots of pictures and a description of Columbia 28.

I only meant stout to imply a design of thick root stub integral to the hull, not the glass work.

Mark


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Taxpayers now have to pick up the tab for cleaning up their mess. $90 dollars can't cover it.

Stoopid can't be cured.


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Better to happen where it did, rather than later headed to the Carbbean.


----------



## sailjumanji (Dec 6, 2000)

RegisteredUser said:


> Better to happen where it did, rather than later headed to the Carbbean.


Didn't someone tell them it costs more than $90 to check into Bahamas?

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

sailjumanji said:


> Didn't someone tell them it costs more than $90 to check into Bahamas?
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


That statement about them having $90...smells bad...
They have a stash...or will be diving for it...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

Some people get older and wiser but some folks just get older.... Good luck to them but it would seem that they have a judgement problem which usually leads to a very tough life....


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

RegisteredUser said:


> That statement about them having $90...smells bad...
> They have a stash...or will be diving for it...


Wouldn't count on it. They probably just watched a couple of youtube videos and said, "How hard could it be?"


----------



## Skyeterrier (Feb 11, 2016)

The woman is wearing a Sailing La Vagabonde T shirt in the news article.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Oh. Of course.

/facepalm


----------



## Tgradyv7m (May 17, 2015)

Glad they are safe and nobody got hurt rescuing them. Last time I checked, sail boats tend to go where the owners sail them. It is not the sail boats fault.


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Well...sh..t happens. At least they tried to live their dream. Glad they made it out safe. I'm sure they will be smarter next time. Cute dog.


----------



## Tgradyv7m (May 17, 2015)

Yep. So many of us don't try for their dreams, don't untie from the dock. Personally, I am trying change that.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Skyeterrier said:


> The woman is wearing a Sailing La Vagabonde T shirt in the news article.


"YouTube sensation Riley and Elayna of 'Sailing La Vagabonde' have just landed a wonderful deal with legendary French catamaran manufacturer, Outremer Yachting, to extend their cruising adventures onboard a new Outremer 45 involving a historic sponsorship deal confirming the power of social media."

Must be nice!

But unfortunately only for eye candy youngsters. . .


----------



## WharfRat (Aug 4, 2015)

Hmm....Flat broke ... wanna cruise ... run into things ....

Sounds like a Swain 36 might the perfect boat for them. I wonder if he can weld.


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

And just a reminder: these folks are in their twenties... I have done so much stupid a..ss bonehead sh..t in my twenties it's a miracle I'm still alive. Now I'm a safe old fart. Yuppie for me!
They were lucky their keel fell off close to shore in shallow water. Seems like it was barely held together. It might have come off out there in Gulf stream if they got a little bit of pounding. That would not end well, most likely.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Dark, shoaling, draft warnings, unfamiliar territory, confused............ I bet the throttle was full speed ahead too. After all, it doesn't go all that fast...........

I don't buy the $90 hype either. That's just media candy.


----------



## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

Entering a strange port for the first time after dark, things don't look right and the buoys don't seem to be where they should be. Time to either reverse course or drop the anchor right where you are and wait for daylight to sort things out. Better yet, don't even try it the first time once the sun has gone down. 

But it was an inexpensive boat and now they will have time to learn a bit more about sailing before they can afford to set out again so this may be a blessing in disguise.


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

IIRC, the article I read mentioned fog, and markers not being apparent.
If bats were also involved, I really do not know...


----------



## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

I am a newbe, hope this does not happen to me. Might go out with some seasoned sailor my first few times on my boat.

:captain::captain:


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jtsailjt said:


> ...But it was an inexpensive boat.....


Not to them, it wasn't. A million dollar boat can be disposable to a billionaire.

This was reportedly all they had.

Frankly, I can't imagine the naivete required to enter an unfamiliar port, at night, as a novice sailor. Perhaps they simply don't have the judgement for this game.


----------



## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Not to them, it wasn't. A million dollar boat can be disposable to a billionaire.
> 
> This was reportedly all they had.
> 
> Frankly, I can't imagine the naivete required to enter an unfamiliar port, at night, as a novice sailor. Perhaps they simply don't have the judgement for this game.


Yeah, I get that what's expensive to one person may be a throwaway to another and it's all relative. They may have lost everything they have but at their age it's really not that big a deal and they can bounce back quickly. If they were older and had more and lost everything, they might never be able to make it all back. That would surely apply to me at age 61. So it seems to me that they just bought a very valuable lesson at a pretty reasonable price. Nobody got hurt and if they both get jobs and live frugally, they could be right back on the water a year from now, which is a pretty short amount of time, but now that Neptune has seen fit to point out to them that they've got a few more things to learn, they can also use that year to study and think and talk to more experienced sailors and hopefully get a few chances to crew on others boats. Hopefully, they will persist and when they go back to sea, they'll be much better prepared and will make better decisions.

I wouldn't be too hard on them regarding judgment because I believe judgment is judiciously applied knowledge and since they didn't have hardly any knowledge about sailing we can't really expect them to have much judgment...yet. Hopefully, before they go back to sea they will undertake to remedy that.


----------



## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

amwbox said:


> Wouldn't count on it. They probably just watched a couple of youtube videos and said, "How hard could it be?"


Thats what I did!

irateraft:


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Their GoFundMe is already up to almost $10,000

nice if you can get it, no one's contributing who can't afford it, people like to feel they're "helping", helps being young.


----------



## Skyeterrier (Feb 11, 2016)

john61ct said:


> Their GoFundMe is already up to almost $10,000
> 
> nice if you can get it, no one's contributing who can't afford it, people like to feel they're "helping", helps being young.


If they have a shred of integrity they would use this money to immediately get the boat off the sandbar and disposed of.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Skyeterrier said:


> If they have a shred of integrity they would use this money to immediately get the boat off the sandbar and disposed of.


Pretty sure that's the plan, but they'll likely get enough to shorten their bootstrapping stage before Try #2


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

sailforlife said:


> Thats what I did!
> 
> irateraft:


We know


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jtsailjt said:


> ....I wouldn't be too hard on them regarding judgment because I believe judgment is judiciously applied knowledge and since they didn't have hardly any knowledge about sailing we can't really expect them to have much judgment...yet.......


While I would acknowledge we don't necessarily have all the facts here and maybe there is a factor that drove this poor judgement, I just can't get there otherwise.

Sailing requires a certain degree of inherent concern for what can go wrong. You have it or you don't. Some people just don't have common sense and always remain behind the curve.

An unfamiliar shallow passage at night. I would have never tried that at any age.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

mbianka said:


> You don't understand. In school they were taught everyone gets a medal. No one ever loses and your dreams always come true. Besides You Tube videos show how easy it is to sail. Who needs experience? NIKE says: "Just do it!"


This is probably a down side to these vlogs of sailing through paradise. Who is going to vlog their disasters large or small... Who vlogs their mistakes? How many vlog foggy, rainy weather... or T storms or gales? How many vlog the hours of maintenance? or the boredom waiting in doldrums?

Admittedly sailing in the Caribe from my experience is pretty easy for a number of reasons... and why people are drawn to it in addition to the lovely weather.

I rarely watch these vlogs...


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> ......Who is going to vlog their disasters large or small... Who vlogs their mistakes? How many vlog foggy, rainy weather... or T storms or gales? How many vlog the hours of maintenance? or the boredom waiting in doldrums?
> 
> I rarely watch these vlogs...


s/v Delos has vlogged each of these. Half the crew puking, engines and generators not running, blew out a sail, no sleep in a rocking boat, becalmed near the equator, repeated knock overs in the Indian Ocean. I think they have the best balance of keeping it real, seeing the world, making friends, moving on. I've never held it against them that the women are wearing bikinis in the tropics. However, I will admit there is a touch of gratuitous skin from time to time, but little more than prime time TV these days. It's just not the majority of what they do.

Odd that you'd draw a conclusion, if you admittedly don't watch vlogs enough to know.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> s/v Delos has vlogged each of these. Half the crew puking, engines and generators not running, blew out a sail, no sleep in a rocking boat, becalmed near the equator, repeated knock overs in the Indian Ocean. I think they have the best balance of keeping it real, seeing the world, making friends, moving on. I've never held it against them that the women are wearing bikinis in the tropics. However, I will admit there is a touch of gratuitous skin from time to time, but little more than prime time TV these days. It's just not the majority of what they do.
> 
> Odd that you'd draw a conclusion, if you admittedly don't watch vlogs enough to know.


I am not criticizing every vlog out there... I don't think I need to see them all or lots of them to have a reliable idea of what these vlogs are about. What I have seen share many attributes so I conclude these are attributes of most vlogs. Of course this could be incorrect because my sample space is small.

If I am going to watch vlogs... my interest would be in technical "how to" sort of stuff... I like beauty... but I've passed my adolescence and have not much need to oggle women 1/3 my age doing what they do... exhibit. Of course sailing in hot climates... wearing little makes sense. So I have concluded that there is little content to inform my need related to sailing. It's that simple.

When I was cruising out there I did have some cruising guides and I suppose that these are being replaced by video versions. That's fine too. I am not there.


----------



## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> While I would acknowledge we don't necessarily have all the facts here and maybe there is a factor that drove this poor judgement, I just can't get there otherwise.
> 
> Sailing requires a certain degree of inherent concern for what can go wrong. You have it or you don't. Some people just don't have common sense and always remain behind the curve.
> 
> An unfamiliar shallow passage at night. I would have never tried that at any age.


How about youth and inexperience and the common belief at that age that you're almost bulletproof? Now that I'm older, I shudder to think of some of the things I used to do in my 20's...and even into my 30's. I think you're right that some people never develop good judgment but quite a few do and hopefully this sinking is just the wake-up call they needed to realize that they need to educate themselves about more than a few things before setting out once again. All we can do is hope.

We are discussing this story from our perspective as experienced boaters but many millions of others have also been made aware of this story. I noticed a link to it on my local Maine newspapers website as well as on Drudge. So a gofundme site is set up and this young and clueless couple will be made whole financially in very short order and can once again set out to sea without having to go through the process of reflecting on what they did wrong and learning the things they need to learn in order to avoid similar, easily avoidable mishaps in the future. I'm afraid that these well intended gofundme donators are unwittingly creating a situation that will lead this young couple to their demise. But there's nothing we can do about it but hope they have similar luck to that of Tania Aebi during her first few months at sea or the Bumfuzzles during pretty much their whole circumnavigation.


----------



## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

I read a news article about this incident for the first time this morning and then logged onto Sailnet to post it for other's perusal. Before doing so, I found this thread and saw that the story had already been posted. I'm going to post the link to the story I read anyway, simply because the the article linked at the beginning of this thread and the one I read are so different. Yes, I read Fox news. No, I'm not prosletyzing or taking sides. What is interesting is how both articles are factually correct, but leave the reader with very different "take-aways" due to what facts they include or omit. Here's the link....

Couple sells all possessions for sailboat, sinks 2 days into trip | Fox News

Even in coverage of a simple event like this one, you can't get the full story from a single source. Expand that to the incredibly complex arena of national and global political interaction, and it becomes evident that there's no way anyone can get the full story from reading a single source, and that single sources definitely have innate biases. The Times article states that the guy was "sent to Breckenridge, Colo., to market timeshares," which sounds like his profession was beyond his control, while Fox states that he "booked timeshares for a living," which most likely invokes a negative reaction in most people. The Times article omits any mention of the couple's GoFundMe page, while Fox includes it, along with a quote from the woman saying "..money isn't everything." The quotes chosen for inclusion in the articles are very different, and certainly show the subjects of the article in very different lights. Had I read just the Times article, I would have had a much more sympathetic reaction to the couple. After reading the Fox article first and prior to having read the Times article, my reaction was that these lazy entitled ignorant folks experienced what could have been a good lesson early enough in life to recover, but didn't and figured they were still owed a life by everyone else. I'm glad I read the Times article; it detailed a little more thought and pre-planning into the venture and I can give the couple a bit more credit. In all honesty, I still can't find a whole lot of sympathy for them, mostly because of the "why work through life?" and GoFundMe attitudes. I'm glad they weren't hurt, and that the dog still has his toys.

My wife and I are starting a new website, GoFundYourself.com . It's not very long. Mostly, it just says, "We started our own personal fundraiser a while back, and now own our own house, cars, are debt-free, and have enough investments for a comfortable income forever! It's amazing! And... while actively involved in raising our funds, we actually did a lot good for other people and helped them improve their lives! Wait...we're willing to let you in on our amazing discovery...and.....for free! Ready for the name of our amazing fundraising scheme that you.....yes, YOU! ... can do too?

Ready?

READY??..

HERE IT IS....

it's called......

WORK!!,

Try it. Combined with our other secret program, "Spend Less Than You Earn," you'll be amazed at the results!

Sooo.. are you still expecting other people to provide you with a life? If so, GoFundYourself!


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I'm sorry... s p e n d l e s s t h a n y o u e a r n ? What language is this and how does it compare to my website www.scratchofflottoticketyourwaytofinancailfreedom.edu


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I've been amazed at how many media outlets have picked up on this story. From the British Press, USA Today, NY Post, TV Stations etc... Most don't delve too deeply into the incompetence of this couple and the mistakes they made. Which IMO would have been a good lesson for others who are tempted to put the dream ahead of reality. But, I finally came across one story that lays it all out:
Couple Sinks Sailboat In Two Days | The Daily Caller

_*"I hate to say we could have all seen this coming, but these two were setting up for a disaster from the start. Boats are awesome, but maybe don't buy one if you have no other money. Also don't buy one that you don't know how to sail. I feel like these are very obvious statements, but apparently not obvious enough."*_


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

john61ct said:


> Their GoFundMe is already up to almost $10,000
> 
> nice if you can get it, no one's contributing who can't afford it, people like to feel they're "helping", helps being young.


79 Watkins 27 sailboat for sale in Michigan
I think I could sink this in two days. If I pay asking price I could make 6 grand. Some pay that much to charter. I could make 6 grand and get to sail for a couple days. Anyone want to fund me?


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> An unfamiliar shallow passage at night. I would have never tried that at any age.


All we have here in W. central FL is shallow. Night throws in an added difficulty, but up to date charts in a chartplotter should remedy that problem. I'd say I am going into anchorage at night more often than during the day. It is a fact of life for me because I am chartering on a schedule.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

ianjoub said:


> All we have here in W. central FL is shallow. Night throws in an added difficulty, but up to date charts in a chartplotter should remedy that problem. I'd say I am going into anchorage at night more often than during the day. It is a fact of life for me because I am chartering on a schedule.


Then I presume you've been though them in the daytime and my personal restriction wouldn't apply.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I am not criticizing every vlog out there... I don't think I need to see them all or lots of them to have a reliable idea of what these vlogs are about. What I have seen share many attributes so I conclude these are attributes of most vlogs. Of course this could be incorrect because my sample space is small.
> 
> If I am going to watch vlogs... my interest would be in technical "how to" sort of stuff... I like beauty... but I've passed my adolescence and have not much need to oggle women 1/3 my age doing what they do... exhibit. Of course sailing in hot climates... wearing little makes sense. So I have concluded that there is little content to inform my need related to sailing. It's that simple.
> 
> When I was cruising out there I did have some cruising guides and I suppose that these are being replaced by video versions. That's fine too. I am not there.


I consider the sailing vlogs that I watch to simply be travel documentaries, with sailing experiences included. How-to and cruising guides are different.

Just because a woman is wearing a bikini does not mandate one to oggle. Woman generally have a problem with men that can't help themselves and insist they remain clothed up to the neck.


----------



## Guyfromthenorth (Jul 2, 2015)

Jeff_H said:


> The Columbia in question probably was a Columbia 29 which was a pretty nice S&S design. They originally had a bolt on lead keel, and later had an encapsulated iron keel. By 1969 this was probably the encapsulated iron keel. if that is the case, it is likely that the ballast was no longer bonded to the encapsulation envelope which very common on encapsulated keels of this era.
> 
> Columbias were anything but tanks. They were crudely built and their glass work was terrible. The bottom of a keel encapsulation typically is particularly bad glass work since this area is very difficult for the lamination crew to reach. Once the bond between the ballast and the encapsulation envelope is broken, the bottom of the envelope is exposed to very high forces on a routine basis and so becomes weakened over time due to fatigue.
> 
> ...


I'm not looking to start a rock throwing event at Columbia's, however when I looked at their 34's while shopping for my next boat and thought they may be alright. Then I saw deck mounted chainplates for the shrouds and ran away, far far away.

The couple was young, if they "sold everything they had" and were left with 90$ and a sunken "cheap" boat I don't think it'll stake much for them to rebound. Their ego's however may take longer. That's what life is about, learn your lessons and get better at the game.


----------



## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

mbianka said:


> You don't understand. In school they were taught everyone gets a medal. No one ever loses and your dreams always come true.


While I don't disagree that the "everyone gets a trophy" thing is a little over the top these days, I think it misses the mark in regard to this story. It takes balls to sell everything and move aboard an old boat, penniless and without any boating experience. Stupid and naive as well, sure maybe some or a lot of that, but definitely some sort of gumption that most people just don't have.

Meanwhile, the "everyone gets a trophy" kid grows up to mindlessly push paper sitting at a desk living an unfulfilled life because he never learned how to take risks and get outside of his comfort zone. I actually don't really believe this, but this would be the supposed downfall of giving every kid a trophy.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> Then I presume you've been though them in the daytime and my personal restriction wouldn't apply.


First time I pulled in to Pass A Grille channel to anchor, I did it at night.

First time I pulled in to Boca Grande channel to anchor, I did it at night.

First time I pulled in to The Dry Tortugas/ Ft. Jefferson to anchor, I did it at night.

First time I pulled in to Key West to anchor, I did it at night.

A little more caution is prudent, of course.


----------



## eloquest (Jun 25, 2017)

Might think about cutting these folks a little slack. Everyone is a "newbe" at some point. From what I read they were attempting to enter a harbor at night and hit a shoal that wasn't where it was shown on the chart. Anyway, they say they are going to get another boat and they aren't going to give up on their dream, which shows a lot about their determination and character.

Here is a link to the article I read:

http://www.tampabay.com/sold-everything-to-sail-the-world-boat-sank-next-day


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Welcome Eloquest. I was cutting these folks some slack, I have smoked plenty of shoals on the right and the wrong side of the bouys.

However, if its true they are at $11k on their Fundmyboating page, then they have made a profit of this incident which is just plain wrong.


----------



## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

If I was going to give my money away, I think I would rather donate to this couple rather than some guy who made a video of his girl friend eating cereal at anchor.


----------



## FLFrers36 (Feb 13, 2016)

We've all done stupid things while sailing. These folks were setting themselves up for problems from Day 1. Older boats can't be done on the cheap without some issues, and no mention of a survey. Compounding the fact that they're newbies and did not want to take baby steps before setting out on a looooooong voyage just smells of impending disaster.

Glad they're safe, especially the dog.


----------



## eloquest (Jun 25, 2017)

Arcb, Thank you for the welcome! My comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just a general comment. As far as the funding site, I think that's up to the donors to decide. I do see your point about making a profit, though. I will reserve judgement until I learn more facts surrounding the funding and use of the moneys. As someone else remarked, the first thing they should use any money for is the removal and disposal of their sunken boat.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

paulinnanaimo said:


> If I was going to give my money away, I think I would rather donate to this couple rather than some guy who made a video of his girl friend eating cereal at anchor.


I see your point, but if I was to make a cash donation it would more than likely be to one of the dozen or so mens and womens shelters in my city. Not to send a couple of able bodied folks sailing. I definitely dont give money to any cereal eating patreonic vloggers


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Not the first time a boat is lost and the hat is passed. Remember Moitessier? Lost his Joshua in Cabo. Before Gofundme the word went out. John Hutton went to California,from Victoria., welded up a replacement. Everybody chipped in on expense .Met him in Tahiti on his new vessel. This is a discretionary thing ,nobody twists your arm.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

They paid $6500 for the boat, they chose not to insure it. They are currently at $13600. Seems a bit funny to me, but I am certainly not going to stop any one from donating. Have at er.

https://www.gofundme.com/new-sailing-life


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Arcb said:


> They paid $6500 for the boat, they chose not to insure it. They are currently at $13600. Seems a bit funny to me, but I am certainly not going to stop any one from donating. Have at er.
> 
> https://www.gofundme.com/new-sailing-life


They seem to be failing upward.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

Not a very good life lesson for sustainability. Perhaps they should go to Hawaii and look for partners in their sailing venture. Perhaps there would be enough money left to buy a GoPro so they could get video of the shark attack.....


----------



## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

One thing that I noticed in the picture of BBlement's post was that the boat seems to be in the Marked channel close to the starboard side of the channel as it should be. I haven't kept up with the Notice to Mariners for this area but if the shoal has moved that far south, then the channel is basically non existent, In which case I could certainly see how their mistake may not be nearly as foolhardy as was first supposed. Yes they should have checked for Notices and yes it may have been foolhardy to attempt an unknown inlet at night but I am sure that there are plenty of folks on this forum that have made equally bad decisions and simply were lucky enough to get away with it. Who Knows, Maybe these two will be the Pardays' of the future. I for one think that maybe we should cut them some slack and reflect on those occasions where we got lucky. It should also be a reminder to stay on top of the Notice to Mariner bulletins, something I have to admit is an area that I have been lax in.


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

caberg said:


> While I don't disagree that the "everyone gets a trophy" thing is a little over the top these days, I think it misses the mark in regard to this story. It takes balls to sell everything and move aboard an old boat, penniless and without any boating experience. Stupid and naive as well, sure maybe some or a lot of that, but definitely some sort of gumption that most people just don't have.
> 
> Meanwhile, the "everyone gets a trophy" kid grows up to mindlessly push paper sitting at a desk living an unfulfilled life because he never learned how to take risks and get outside of his comfort zone. I actually don't really believe this, but this would be the supposed downfall of giving every kid a trophy.


I agree there is a certain amount of gumption needed to set out like they did but, maybe they had a little too much hubris too in thinking they could pull it off without gaining more experience in sailing and navigation. Which is where the trophy analogy fits in. If these kids are sheltered from failure they may think they can do anything. Hopefully this event has educated them a bit and they will be more cautious in the future. They are very lucky they experienced this situation before heading out offshore. People use to use the phrase: "Look before you leap" today that does not seen to always be the case.


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Capt Len said:


> Not the first time a boat is lost and the hat is passed. Remember Moitessier? Lost his Joshua in Cabo. Before Gofundme the word went out. John Hutton went to California,from Victoria., welded up a replacement. Everybody chipped in on expense .Met him in Tahiti on his new vessel. This is a discretionary thing ,nobody twists your arm.


Speaking of mistakes. Perhaps if Moitessier had not been getting drunk with actor Klaus Kinski in a hotel on land at the time he might have saved his boat. https://www.sailfeed.com/2013/12/bernard-moitessier-what-really-happened-to-joshua/


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's an interview with the couple. It adds a little bit more perspective.

First, they claim they were trying to make it by dusk, but couldn't. Not sure why they didn't just drop the hook outside or stay offshore and sail through the night, but at least it was their plan to make the inlet with light.

Second, they claim they were making 2.0-2.5 kts, motoring with their 6hp outboard. Clearly that should not have torn the keel from it's stub. I would be interested to see the damage, if their boat is removed. It seems impossible to think, even with decayed keel bolts, that it was torn off. But a breach could have let significant water inside.

Obviously, they were underprepared, but they don't come across as much more than young runaways who were a bit naive in what's involved. In a way, it's best this happened with SeaTow available, than what may have happened in the middle of a passage, with no rescue services.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

You don't know what you don't know and this appears to be the case of a couple of people with limited resources who believed sailing was "free as the wind" and the inexpensive way to see the world. And while there is an element of truth to this for sure... in order to sail the world on little money.... you need to have a well found boat... and all manner of experience in sailing in all conditions and skill maintaining the boat and its systems. They obviously thought they were eons ahead of Thor Heyerdahl who "sailed 8,000 km (5,000 mi) across the Pacific Ocean in a hand-built raft from South America to the Tuamotu Islands. His expedition was designed to demonstrate that ancient people could have made long sea voyages, creating contacts between separate cultures."

And clearly hundreds if not thousands of people have sailed around the world in small boats successfully. 

My take away is preparation, preparation, preparation...

They were not prepared and too naive or dumb to understand what they didn't know and what they needed to know.

++++

And this raises the issue of "knowledge" and learning. I like to conceive of knowledge and learning like a snow ball rolling down the hill (kinda). Knowledge is the volume of the snow ball... as it rolls it grows increasingly larger, gains more kinetic energy and rolls faster... growing faster. Not a perfect analogy but it models how knowledge is growing and building on what came before it.

Someone might determine that they want to sail and need to navigate... figure out where they are and how to get from here to there. Today if you can READ a map and point to a location you want to go.... software CAN figure it out... no thinking. If you had to do it manually... you would have to know math and geometry and trigonometry. These become prerequisites for the study and understanding of navigation. Something as simple as "when will we get there?" also requires math... basic math... I am travelling at X miles an hr and the destination is Z miles away... This is so fundamental to all the readers and sailors on this forum... math is second nature and a tool in their thinking. But it's not for everyone... certainly when it is beyond addition, multiplication and division (tables).

Sailing is mentally complex... and requires the sailor to process all sorts of information... performance of their boat, the sails, the sea state the current wind, the weather forecasts, the bottom and hazards and so so on. It may seem conceptually simple... but that is deceptive. People who can do complex things DO make them look simple. And sailors DO bootstrap their knowledge base up... but like the snow ball rolling down the hill the process TAKES TIME... this can not be shortened... but it can be maybe sped up a bit with a lot of motivation and innate intelligence. 

So as much as sailing now is assisted by TECHNOLOGY... and we know we use technology every day that we don't understand cell phones for example... sailing can... and in the case of this couple get them into trouble... because they were "too dumb" or naive to know what they didn't know.... and needed to know.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Arcb said:


> They paid $6500 for the boat, they chose not to insure it. They are currently at $13600. Seems a bit funny to me, but I am certainly not going to stop any one from donating. Have at er.
> 
> https://www.gofundme.com/new-sailing-life


The page is over $14K now. Perhaps I should try this too? - I guess that I'll need a dog...


----------



## WharfRat (Aug 4, 2015)

Strange society we live in, in which failure is rewarded. Rimas has made a cottage industry out of living off the kindness of others and maritime law. Jennifer Appel made an attempt at stardom by hyping up 5 weeks adrift in the Pacific (if they were actually adrift). And now these two, one of which is a timeshare salesman, making money from poor decisions.

Seems like funding such clowns will continue to incent the wrong kinds of behavior.


----------



## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

eherlihy said:


> The page is over $14K now. Perhaps I should try this too? - I guess that I'll need a dog...


And a cute, young readhead. Men can be stupid and easily swayed by a pretty face :eek. If she was wearing a bikini the pot would probably double.


----------



## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

Capt Len said:


> Not the first time a boat is lost and the hat is passed. Remember Moitessier? Lost his Joshua in Cabo. Before Gofundme the word went out. John Hutton went to California,from Victoria., welded up a replacement. Everybody chipped in on expense .Met him in Tahiti on his new vessel. This is a discretionary thing ,nobody twists your arm.


But imo he earned it!!!


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

The Video interview had a very telling revelation. She would watch some sailing videos on You Tube and even mentioned S/V Delos as one of her favorites. He arrogantly refused to watch any of them because he did not want to "watch others living the life he wanted to live". OK got it. You don't need to learn from others you already know how to do it or are going to learn underway. Even if some of them like this fellow Kevin Boothbay might be very educational for you:


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Slayer said:


> And a cute, young readhead. Men can be stupid and easily swayed by a pretty face :eek. If she was wearing a bikini the pot would probably double.


THAT'S WHY THE BOAT SUNK! Gingers AND Women (unless naked) are bad luck on boats!

See this post; http://www.sailnet.com/forums/2051368498-post20.html 6, 7, and 17


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Actually this rubbish has no place on this forum. The who crowd sourced funding for your project is quite creepy to me. Yes there are people who will pay to support content production.. or pay to see a movie... This is not actually new.

But why feature a couple of narcissistic slackers? Why give them a platform? And why would competent sailors... presumably those on this site and those if they are not yet aspire to competence want to look at this mess? Is this a lesson such as what not to do? I don't think there is a lesson there for 99.99% of sailnet members... except the notion that it's possible to get others to pay for your pleasure.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Schadenfreude, sadistic superiority, spiritual vultures. 

We are all human after all


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Slayer said:


> And a cute, young readhead. Men can be stupid and easily swayed by a pretty face :eek. If she was wearing a bikini the pot would probably double.


I believe that this is covered by Sailing Miss Lone Star. 
Actually, her story is strikingly similar: 
buying a boat for a dollar; 




10 episodes later, Maiden Voyage;




2 episodes later, Mayday, Mayday, We Crashed the Boat! (into a well-charted seawall)





And I will confess to watching three of her videos (one of which was crashing the boat) before deciding that they are complete rubbish.

Most of the titles and thumbnails of her videos seem to have been crafted to titillate men.


----------



## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

eherlihy said:


> Most of the titles and thumbnails of her videos seem to have been crafted to titillate men.


Thanks a lot .......I just gave her my credit card number. :grin It is "our adventure" after all.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Slayer said:


> Thanks a lot .......I just gave her my credit card number. :grin It is "our adventure" after all.


Here is some value for your purchase. I got you covered - But, you owe us a report of what's actually in these videos ('cause I ain't watchin' em)


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

a jerk who tows are dink with the OB on...


----------



## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

SanderO said:


> a jerk who tows are dink with the OB on...


Hmmmm... my magic SailNet decoder ring isn't working on that one. Translation?


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

bblument said:


> Hmmmm... my magic SailNet decoder ring isn't working on that one. Translation?


typing mess up. I apologize

jerks were towing their dink with the OB attached...


----------



## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

eherlihy said:


> Here is some value for your purchase. I got you covered - But, you owe us a report of what's actually in these videos ('cause I ain't watchin' em)


I didn't buy antthing,,,,I just gave her my credit card because she's so purdy, and I think she likes me. I haven't felt a connection with a woman like that since the stripper at the Golden Banana!:laugh:laugh


----------



## JoCoSailor (Dec 7, 2015)

I assume they did not have a survey done?? If they did I'd find a different one for my next boat....


----------



## afraidofsharks (Jan 17, 2018)

My first (accidental) overnight journey could have ended up with me on the rocks, or crashing into something had the marina been closer and I decided that I was going to try to make it at night.

However, if something would have happened, I had insurance. I think it's sweet how people donated however would much rather donate to someone else working hard and being more responsible.


----------



## JoCoSailor (Dec 7, 2015)

eherlihy said:


> THAT'S WHY THE BOAT SUNK! Gingers AND Women (unless naked) are bad luck on boats!
> 
> See this post; http://www.sailnet.com/forums/2051368498-post20.html 6, 7, and 17


They rename the boat too...betting they did not do it properly with correct ceremony and all...
Renaming Your Boat - BoatSafe.com


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

sailforlife said:


> I am a newbe, hope this does not happen to me. Might go out with some seasoned sailor my first few times on my boat.
> 
> :captain::captain:


Your boat is much better and even more worth protecting. Going out with someone who has local knowledge and sailing experience wouldn't be a bad idea.

The visual perception of channel markers vs. what the plotter is telling you can be confusing and deceptive until you're familiar with the area. That sounds like what happened to them. Plus, the sand shifts a lot in that area.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Yep, they were dumb. Absolutely. They romanticized living aboard and they were naive.

Thank God none of us ever did anything stupid in our 20's!

Sheesh. Lighten up guys. They got off the couch, invested what little money they had and started out taking baby steps down the coast. I'm sure with hind sight they might do things differently. The shame of it is a tired boat, a tired crew and a hard grounding had to make it a hard lesson indeed.

But at least they're not giving up. They're going to get back out there and maybe one day they'll be good sailors.

Remember what doesn't kill you makes a good bar story


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

'Some uv the best bar stories are about the screwup and dismemberment or fatality of 'a guy I knew' .I've been so careful, cautious and skillful ,not to mention deserving of good fortune that I have to rely on other sailors for embelishable tales of beer mug quality.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

SanderO said:


> Actually this rubbish has no place on this forum. The who crowd sourced funding for your project is quite creepy to me. Yes there are people who will pay to support content production.. or pay to see a movie... This is not actually new.
> 
> But why feature a couple of narcissistic slackers? Why give them a platform? And why would competent sailors... presumably those on this site and those if they are not yet aspire to competence want to look at this mess? Is this a lesson such as what not to do? I don't think there is a lesson there for 99.99% of sailnet members... except the notion that it's possible to get others to pay for your pleasure.


Vicarious living.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

eherlihy said:


> Here is some value for your purchase. I got you covered - But, you owe us a report of what's actually in these videos ('cause I ain't watchin' em)


Sailing Miss Lone Star is actually the most depressing example, considering that she's got kid(?s) that are being left behind so she can play. She's only got a limited amount of time where people are going to want to look at her through a camera lens. Time makes fools of us all.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Some have a head start. Learning which herd you're in is the secret


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Well you can hear about it from the owners themselves -


----------



## CrispyCringle (Jul 30, 2017)

Less than a week since the accident and they are at over 14k in "help", when they started out with 10K? Where is the "hard lesson" here? They started off in their adventure ill prepared and the lesson seems to be that its not a problem. Screw up and in a week start to look for a bigger better boat. If this happened to me I would consider it catastrophic and I would start looking for work. I must be getting old because what they've done sounds really lame to me. Id be pissed if my kids told me they did something like this.



.


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I was reminded of another example from a few years ago when some inexperienced youth take the helm of a beautiful boat. Which ended up being scrapped.
SOUNDBOUNDER: Ashore On Fire Island
"_*it appears that while the owner of the vessel was in South America, his 19 year-old son and two friends decided to sail the boat north to Maine. They narrowly avoided disaster from a light grounding at Absecon Inlet, New Jersey, before landing hard on Fire Island days later. There was no one keeping watch!
Le Papillon has sailed over 80,000 nautical miles, including a circumnavigation, and three passages to Europe. There is no insurance coverage for this incident. As each day passes, her chances of being saved grow dimmer."*_


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

[rant=on
The fact that these two have raised over $15K toward a $10K goal in 5 days from their ill-planned, and ill-equipped voyage really cheeses me. IMHO if these two wanted to stop paying rent and sail away the place to begin would be to LEARN TO SAIL. Part of learning to sail is learning to navigate. Part of being a responsible boat owner is obtaining insurance.

There are MANY other GoFundMe campaigns that are more deserving than these two. One example: I have a good friend, whose step-daughter was misdiagnosed with an auto-immune disease 20 years ago. Long story short, she was treated for Fibromyalgia which continued to incapacitate her to the point where she could no longer work. Her illness continued to progress, despite the care she received, to the point where she became unable to speak and wheelchair bound. Recently the reason for her worsening condition was discovered. After a full IGeneX DNA blood panel it was discovered that she was actually infected with, and dealing with complications from, Lyme Disease [U]for 20 years[/U]!

She has a go fund me page, but not the publicity that these two have. In 3 months Heather has raised $13K toward a $100K goal to help her family cope with the medical bills ($25K-$30K per treatment) and child care. Her full story is here: http://www.gofundme.com/HelpHeatherFightLyme

If you are able and feeling charitable I hope that you'll consider donating to one of the GoFundMe campaigns for people that, through no fault of their own, have suffered a bad turn of events and could really use a helping hand and NOT to people that feel entitled to just "live the dream" on your dime.

[rant=off


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

I'll agree that the whole go fund me thing seems a bit off...but someone is ponying up cash.

Are there that many people who want to live vicariously through someone else???


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

JimMcGee said:


> Are there that many people who want to live vicariously through someone else???


I suspect there are more Youtube sailors then actual sailors.

Speaking of Youtube, these folks might be joining La Vagabonde in the new catamaran department if things keep going. I see they are up to $15550 now.


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Since the Internet, and now social media, the voices are 1000x? what we were used to, and the average age of these public voices is 25-30 younger.

A different world in exposure to 'information'.


----------



## hgillway (Jan 27, 2018)

Columbia built a good boat... but with the early boats the 28 had a bolt on skeg keel. I suspect from what I read it sounds like when they hit the sandbar they lost the keel and capsized... probably rusted carriage bolts. They should thank God that it happened here than in the open ocean.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I watched the interview, interesting. So it was his idea to go sailing andd she wasnt that into it. Apparently she stumbled into a couple of Youtube videos and they sold her on the lifestyle. I have never been able to get through an episode of the La Vagabonde one, but I have seen a few episodes of Delos. Neither of those sailing lifestyle vlogs have anything what so ever to do with the realities of living poor on a late 60's Columbia 28 in West Florida, might have learned as much by watching reruns of Gilligans Island.

The video seems to comfirm there was no significant singular impact, they grounded slowly on a sand bar and got pounded on the sand bar by the surf a bit, when they were rescued by seatow, the boat was still upright, the photo was of the boat the next day after 12+ hours of working on the Sandbar. It sounds like the keel might have come off some time overnight. So the sinking may or may not have been directly related to losing the keel.

Both she and the interviewer were pleased with the Walker Bay surviving, cant blame them, it was the very first thing I noticed when I first saw the pics. Sailing my WB8 was what got me back into dinghy sailing after more than a long time of sailing bigger keel boats. Theyre fun little boats.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Go fund me.....

They should pay for an environmental mitigation and any CG costs . Then donate the money to someone needy. 
Gofundme is great for worthy causes.

I can’t support contributing to a welfare situation of this couple who wishes to live off of others to avoid working like most people do for their dream

I won’t even address the entering an unknown unfamiliar inlet at night with no experience and a piece of electronic equipment to guide them. I have no tolerance for people who put others in danger to potentially rescue them when if they had exercised common sense it wouldn’t happen. 

Kinda like I bought a boat, want to outfit it....don’t know how.....won’t even research it...have never sailed it ..but I will cross the Carribean and Pacific in two years. My experience...well I took a couple of ASA courses. 
And I stayed in a Holiday Inn&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;

Ok small rant is over


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

It's really not welfare. It's not as though anyone is paying involuntarily. This is just people who've got enough money to cheerfully toss it away to someone less fortunate, entirely voluntarily. 

People can do whatever they want with their own money. Not for me to judge. Will I pay? Nope. If they start making kickass content and can build a little business out of it later on, great. That's something I'd be more willing to dip into my latte fund to support. Because I'm getting something in return. 

Though I suppose those who are contributing to this get a warm feeling or something.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

amwbox said:


> It's really not welfare. It's not as though anyone is paying involuntarily. This is just people who've got enough money to cheerfully toss it away to someone less fortunate, entirely voluntarily.
> 
> People can do whatever they want with their own money. Not for me to judge. Will I pay? Nope. If they start making kickass content and can build a little business out of it later on, great. That's something I'd be more willing to dip into my latte fund to support. Because I'm getting something in return.
> 
> Though I suppose those who are contributing to this get a warm feeling or something.


There are many problems with this whole thing.

I personally don't care if people kill themselves with intent of as a result of their own stupid. IN this day and age anyone can learn about risks of ANYTHING and this SHOULD inform this behavior.

YES people can do whatever they want to with their money. However this doesn't make it RIGHT.

These jerks endanger the lives of those who have to rescue them and leave a piece of junk in water as a hazard. They didn't pay for their rescue...but in this case they should because they showed wanton disregard for sensible behavior on the sea in coastal waters.

This is a perfect example of a downside to accessible vlog and vlogging. While they can inform... they also can mislead and encourage dumb people to do dangerous thing and endanger the lives of others. And the crowd source funding while it can be a positive thing.... it can also enable dumb.

There is little that will change or can be done about this as we cherish our freedoms at times more than sensible socially conscious behavior. This is feeding the growing disease of selfishness, narcissism, exhibitionism and the over blown need for "self expression".

Who ever expected something as beautiful and socially conscious, environmentally aware as sailing would be perverted by modern technology? This is a perfect example.


----------



## flee27 (Jan 16, 2018)

I also will never contribute to these types of GOFUNDMEs but agree it is each persons right to spend their money like they wish. I personally would rather contribute to my dream and not live vicariously through theirs.

I also agree they should and hopefully will have to take full responsibility for their current boat. Everything has a down side but lots of younger people seem to live with the idea that the down side can just be side stepped or ignored. I hope this is an example for taking and being responsible for your decisions.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Based on the interview, it sounds like they did pay for their rescue. If I understand the sequence correctly:

-Deart 4pm (this part maybe wasn't the most well thought out).

-arrive at John's Pass just after dark, I think they somehow missed the channel.

-grounded at slow speed, light wind but it sounds like a bit of a swell. They called Sea Tow (commercial salvage). 

-boat got beat up while waiting for sea tow, sounds like it was bottoming out in troughs and rolling pretty bad, took on a bunch of water.

-Salvage arrives, guy wants to save the boat, but salvage guy sees it asalost cause and recommends they abandon- which they do, boat is upright but swamped at this time (water above the engine).

-sleep it off in a hotel, then go back out with commercial salvage to again try to save the boat, arrive at boat to find her laying on her side, presumably with no keel, dinghy merrily swaying at anchor.

- then the fundmyboating starts, but to their credit, they have already tried to salvage the boat twice at this time.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> There are many problems with this whole thing.
> 
> I personally don't care if people kill themselves with intent of as a result of their own stupid. IN this day and age anyone can learn about risks of ANYTHING and this SHOULD inform this behavior.
> 
> ...


Well said. Best Rant yet

I must be too cautious. I've sailed for over 50 years now ( can't beleive I am saying that). I raced Hobies nationally in my teens/ 20s. Sailed across the Atlantic twice and the Carribean countless times before I ever owned my first keelboat. SAFETY was always emphasized to me by my mentors . I tried to never endanger myself and NEVER endanger others by my actions. The more experience I got sailing, the more I recognized that I needed to keep learning. You can get in trouble in the Chesapeake or LI Sound as easily as offshore. Inlets present done of the greatest dangers to a sailboat.

Nowhere in that did I ever believe I could by a 30 ft plus keelboat and just sailnit without consequences. No where in that did I ever believe I could get experience enough on the Internet or in an ASA sailing class. Learning intellectually is one thing but experience comes from repetition.

I laugh when rooks come on here and have bought a boat but obviously they don't know what they are doing except when it endangers others. I and others here gladly impart our mentoring experience to ones who really want to listen, unfortunately many times when our advice doesn't fit in with their agenda they hear nothing. Fueled by internet vlogs and their own adrenaline they carry forward. Right now we have a multi poster headed in that direction. No way do I want to dampen his enthusiasm but nor do I want to feed into his direction as it may influence others to take this same approach. Some of the posts even make me question whether he is pulling our chain and just egging us on in a trolling way.

How on earth can you buy a Tartan 37 , throw a stream of consciousness amount of new fixes into it, have done so little research on their own into basic areas that the questions seem questionable and never have even sailed the boat. Or for that matter the total experience in sailing is a few ASA classes. And the goal is to move aboard soon and sail the Atlantic .

Yes you can do what you want with your money, yes you can do what you want with others who want to throw their money away at you,

I don't care as long as you don't call me or what I pay for ( CG) to bail you out when you find out you didn't have enough experience. I guess this is where Darwin takes over?


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

chef2sail said:


> I don't care as long as you don't call me or what I pay for ( CG) to bail you out


How is this any different from people who don't want all these cops, but others don't want the responsibility of owning and carrying firearms?

How is this any different than people not wanting to buy food, housing, and medical care for others who are unwilling or incapable of providing it for themselves?

Either you want and support the nanny state or you don't. Where do you stand on this issue???


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Why does anyone have to explain to you, things you should already know as a " real man" ? 

Ok here goes - Someones' keel fell off and no one give a rat's a$$ about your libertarian political crap.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Sal Paradise said:


> Why does anyone have to explain to you, things you should already know as a " real man" ?
> 
> Ok here goes - Someones' keel fell off and no one give a rat's a$$ about your libertarian political crap.


Lefty says one person's opinion is ok, but another's is not. Why didn't you jump on him for his political opinion?

Hypocrisy: Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character or inclinations


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

As for these people endangering the lives of 'first responders' (not sure if the term qualifies for CG), did you notice the picture? The boat is grounded where a person could stand thigh deep in water. That is hardly a drowning concern.


----------



## Skyeterrier (Feb 11, 2016)

chef2sail said:


> Go fund me.....
> 
> I won't even address the entering an unknown unfamiliar inlet at night with no experience and a piece of electronic equipment to guide them.


According to the linked interview, they did have a Garmin chartplotter and both electronic and paper charts, and planned to get into the harbor by dusk.

But their plan probably resulted in them barely getting in with daylight and likely didn't give any slack to their underpowered boat, currents etc., and it may well be that the sandbar had shifted into the marked area with previous storms and weather as per the notice to mariners.

So while they didn't plan it well and probably missed crucial elements like surveying a very old boat, they had some elements of a plan that made sense. They probably didn't know enough to know what they didn't know.

The part that doesn't sit right with me is going straight to the gofundme route, I feel like I'd be embarrassed to do that to clean up my mess and would at least try to figure something out before or be in debt for a while before passing the hat.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

ianjoub said:


> Lefty says one person's opinion is ok, but another's is not. Why didn't you jump on him for his political opinion?
> 
> Hypocrisy: Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character or inclinations


The hell is wrong with you? We're just talking about some kids beaching their boat. Why do you feel the need to inject all that shrill, breathless, scare ****less bonkers wingnuttery into it?

Freedom of speech isn't freedom from criticism. If you say stupid **** and someone points it out for you, please don't cry about the unfairness and hypocrisy of it all. Easier for everyone if you simply refrain from spouting the bumblefuckery in the first place, no? The less decent folks have to listen to it, the better.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

chef2sail said:


> Well said. Best Rant yet
> 
> I must be too cautious. I've sailed for over 50 years now ( can't beleive I am saying that). I raced Hobies nationally in my teens/ 20s. Sailed across the Atlantic twice and the Carribean countless times before I ever owned my first keelboat. SAFETY was always emphasized to me by my mentors . I tried to never endanger myself and NEVER endanger others by my actions. The more experience I got sailing, the more I recognized that I needed to keep learning. You can get in trouble in the Chesapeake or LI Sound as easily as offshore. Inlets present done of the greatest dangers to a sailboat.
> 
> ...


I get what you guys are saying, but damn. What's the final lesson here? How many decades of harbor sailing are required before we allow people any mistakes? And let's face it...lots of old salts screwing up right alongside the young ones.

Considering the trivially small number of crowdsourced boats banging around out there, I'm just not that worried about it being some sort of corrupting influence on people being properly burned by their mistakes. Truth is boats are lost all the time, by newbs and the experienced alike. It's not like this is a common occurrence. Look how that Appel person got laughed off the internet.

And as for self expression and the democratization of access...I'm just not seeing a problem. These are _good_ things. Once upon a time sailing was the purview of the elites. When they started building fiberglass boats for the masses, I'm sure those old time yacht club bastards were horrified at the idea of democratized yachting. (And maybe they had some small point, considering the marinas full of rotting, forgotten, plastic boats). And now the people have easy access to content distribution and can be part of the narrative, instead of just that tiny few who could get access to the old fashioned media. Of all the fresh horrors of social media and phone zombies, this is the least of our worries.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

ianjoub said:


> How is this any different from people who don't want all these cops, but others don't want the responsibility of owning and carrying firearms?
> 
> How is this any different than people not wanting to buy food, housing, and medical care for others who are unwilling or incapable of providing it for themselves?
> 
> Either you want and support the nanny state or you don't. Where do you stand on this issue???


Here's where I stand since you asked:

As a long time member / poster it dismays me to see UNRELATED posts about sailing. Some of us come here to read others SAILING experiences and SAILING related experiences. To gather knowledge from other REAl boaters.

You are not alive here , but many of your diatribes and political dissertations have nothing to do with sailing IE your frequent Nanny State references.

There is a thread/ area for politicals on SN. Take it there.

An occasional reference is one thing, but everything can't relate back to politics.

I enjoy most reading here about others experiences in sailing , their take of areas they sail, and first hand knowledge ( not cut and paste internet searchers) of products. I really tire of yours and others political persuasions.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

ianjoub said:


> How is this any different from people who don't want all these cops, but others don't want the responsibility of owning and carrying firearms?
> 
> How is this any different than people not wanting to buy food, housing, and medical care for others who are unwilling or incapable of providing it for themselves?
> 
> Either you want and support the nanny state or you don't. Where do you stand on this issue???





Sal Paradise said:


> Why does anyone have to explain to you, things you should already know as a " real man" ?
> 
> Ok here goes - Someones' keel fell off and no one give a rat's a$$ about your libertarian political crap.





amwbox said:


> The hell is wrong with you? We're just talking about some kids beaching their boat. Why do you feel the need to inject all that shrill, breathless, scare ****less bonkers wingnuttery into it?
> 
> Freedom of speech isn't freedom from criticism. If you say stupid **** and someone points it out for you, please don't cry about the unfairness and hypocrisy of it all. Easier for everyone if you simply refrain from spouting the bumblefuckery in the first place, no? The less decent folks have to listen to it, the better.


I simply asked a couple of questions. I then had 2 'tolerant lefties' levy personal attacks against me instead of expressing relevant opinions or citing actual facts to support positions.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

ianjoub said:


> I simply asked a couple of questions. I then had 2 'tolerant lefties' levy personal attacks against me instead of expressing relevant opinions or citing actual facts to support positions.


You can probably print those out and use them to light the tikis at the next rally. :laugher

Got a sailing question?


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Please forgive the following thread drift: However, may I suggest that the "Ignore User" feature of this forum as a very helpful way of dealing with people that have a political axe to grind. Something that I learned long ago DNFTT. Add them to the list, and the only time that you see their posts is if/when someone quotes them.

Carry on.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

ianjoub said:


> I simply asked a couple of questions. I then had 2 'tolerant lefties' levy personal attacks against me instead of expressing relevant opinions or citing actual facts to support positions.


As I tell others like you routinely: Grow a thicker skin. There is no requirement that anyone else concern themselves with your delicate sensibilities. If you're going to say something like that, someone is probably going to mock you for it. Simply hanging a question mark off the end of it makes it no less laughable.

_Tolerance_ doesn't require anyone to be super nice to you or protect your feelings.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

ianjoub said:


> 'first responders' (not sure if the term qualifies for CG


Don't understand this comment. Why would you not consider front line search and rescue first responders?


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

amwbox said:


> I get what you guys are saying, but damn. What's the final lesson here? How many decades of harbor sailing are required before we allow people any mistakes? And let's face it...lots of old salts screwing up right alongside the young ones.
> 
> Considering the trivially small number of crowdsourced boats banging around out there, I'm just not that worried about it being some sort of corrupting influence on people being properly burned by their mistakes. Truth is boats are lost all the time, by newbs and the experienced alike. It's not like this is a common occurrence. Look how that Appel person got laughed off the internet.
> 
> And as for self expression and the democratization of access...I'm just not seeing a problem. These are _good_ things. Once upon a time sailing was the purview of the elites. When they started building fiberglass boats for the masses, I'm sure those old time yacht club bastards were horrified at the idea of democratized yachting. (And maybe they had some small point, considering the marinas full of rotting, forgotten, plastic boats). And now the people have easy access to content distribution and can be part of the narrative, instead of just that tiny few who could get access to the old fashioned media. Of all the fresh horrors of social media and phone zombies, this is the least of our worries.


Think you missed my point, maybe because I ranmbled all over the place. I wasn't trying to stifle newbies or say those experiences were all that's right.

Tired of seeing posts not even related to sailing


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Arcb said:


> Don't understand this comment. Why would you not consider front line search and rescue first responders?


Just not sure if they would consider it an insult as opposed to being referred to as military. We send special ops teams in to rescue people in danger, don't think they would appreciate being called first responders.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

ianjoub said:


> Just not sure if they would consider it an insult as opposed to being referred to as military. We send special ops teams in to rescue people in danger, don't think they would appreciate being called first responders.


Okay, that seems like a reasonable perspective.

I was a SAR sailor for about 9 years.

You are tired, you are cold, you are hurt, you are sinking, you call for help and our team would often be the first to respond, often in not very nice weather or conditions. We would give some pretty decent First Aid, extract and if at all possible try to save the boat in the process.

Not exactly sure how others feel, but I think we were first responders.


----------



## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

ianjoub said:


> Just not sure if they would consider it an insult as opposed to being referred to as military. We send special ops teams in to rescue people in danger, don't think they would appreciate being called first responders.


I can't imagine why anyone, military or civilian, would object to being described as a first responder. They all rush in to help others, often when danger still exists. As far as I'm concerned, "first responder" is one of the very most honorable titles any person can have and it certainly takes nothing away from any other titles or job descriptions that apply!


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

jtsailjt said:


> I can't imagine why anyone, military or civilian, would object to being described as a first responder. They all rush in to help others, often when danger still exists. As far as I'm concerned, "first responder" is one of the very most honorable titles any person can have and it certainly takes nothing away from any other titles or job descriptions that apply!


Some people get offended by everything. My comment was more like the Seinfeld episode where every 3 line was "not that there is anything wrong with that".


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Anyone know if their sunken boat has been removed yet?


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

jtsailjt said:


> I can't imagine why anyone, military or civilian, would object to being described as a first responder. They all rush in to help others, often when danger still exists. As far as I'm concerned, "first responder" is one of the very most honorable titles any person can have and it certainly takes nothing away from any other titles or job descriptions that apply!


It's an interesting term. Very American. Not used anywhere else until recently.

It's always difficult to find the history of a term, but I can't see it used in the Australian media before 2011, and there's no use of it again till 2014... And it took off in 2015.

To me - and *please* this is just an opinion about language - there's several words or phrases that become used or misused because of their emotive effect. "Hero" is a classic. Now it means little or nothing. Yesterday there was a report of a Hero baby that underwent a heart operation at 1 week old. Extraordinary surgery but the baby had no choice, no heroic deed done by it. There may have been heroism or just vast risk by the operating doctor... But not the baby.

"First Responder" in Australian vernacular, not American, is a bit weird. Who is that? Anyone with a badge? Like Stephen Crane's The Red Badge of Courage it can mean sweet F a. The person is paid to do a job and happens to be there because of a rota, luck, on duty etc etc. There's no special 'thing' to being employed.

In Australia the largest Australian flags are flown at used car dealerships... In the USA the largest mobile US flags are flown behind firetrucks.

Cultural differences can not be easily understood by travellers. But it's very important to be able to identify these differences... That's education ☺

That we use language differently dies not make it correct or incorrect... It's just different. (recent example America being a Republic / democracy / both etc. Those words have a different meaning outside the USA. Surprised the hell out of me)

Mark


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

∆∆∆ if I am not mistaken, the term come into popular US language after the collapse of the world trade center because a lot of the casualties were the first to respond: fire fighters and police.

In the Homeland Security Act in 2002 the term was defined in the US (except they called it something like "Emergency response providers"), and it clearly includes Federal response agencies, this was after all a Federal Act. 

My first encounter with the term in relation to marine SAR was working at a small town SAR base in 2004 and the town put on a First Responders Day luncheon and church service. We were invited and seemed to be the focus of the church service.

I know the term is defined in provincial law in Canada since at least 2013.

Who would not be considered a first responder is the sea tow guy who actually evacuated these two folks off their Columbia in John's Pass.

That's my understanding any way.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Language and meaning of words is an interesting topic... we understand the world with language and language uses words and words have meanings using other words and so on. Semantics and semiotics are fascinating subjects. There is no one to one correspondence of words in different languages and there is not universal meaning of words of use of them in the same language spoke in various parts of the world or even a single state.

And of course meaning and thoughts usually involve a series of works not a single one. I have no idea of why this is being raised in this thread but for sure communication is not possible without language... and as we see on this and other forums there will be lots of misunderstandings because language is not binary but very complex.

Cultural differences may NOT be easily understood... they may be easy to NOTICE... understanding is much difficult.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Cultural differences can not be easily understood by travellers. But it's very important to be able to identify these differences... That's education ☺
> 
> That we use language differently dies not make it correct or incorrect... It's just different. (recent example America being a Republic / democracy / both etc. Those words have a different meaning outside the USA. Surprised the hell out of me)
> 
> Mark


Well said. Of course, now that you've said it we should have a discussion about the varying chemical properties of aluminum vs aluminium. :smile


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> ......"Hero" is a classic. Now it means little or nothing.


You are absolutely right. To me, a hero is someone who is risking their own life to protect another. Every cop, every firefighter, every soldier. Varying degrees, of course. Not a heart surgeon, even if they pull off a 1 in a million success.

The other biggest watering down of meaning we have is the gross overuse of those ending in ".....ism" You fill in any one you like, from race to sex to whatever. They are dropped so often, at the slightest provocation, we are now missing a word for the true meaning of the vile discrimination they are to suggest.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

FWIW - I believe that the first and only agency to respond to this incident was Sea-Tow.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

mbianka said:


> Anyone know if their sunken boat has been removed yet?


I dont know, but Im going to be camping on Shell Key in about 10 days. Johns Pass is only 1/2 hour sail away. If the boat is still there- there will be photos (and possibly some video).


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

JoCoSailor said:


> I assume they did not have a survey done?? If they did I'd find a different one for my next boat....


One would hope that the monies they spent which about equaled the purchase price of the boat included a marine survey. The keel bolts and signs of fatigue at the joint are one of the first things they check for on that type of boat.

The boat being high and dry up on stanchions in the boat yard in Tarpon Springs, which has a fine maritime tradition and many competent boat shop's and marine surveyors, for several months presented ample opportunity to inspect the keel. I hope the months spent working on the hull did not mostly mean a Bondo job filling the gap where the keel was separating from the hull.

I live in Clearwater and there are several ASA Schools in the area along with the Community Sailing Center which hold sailing classes for $100 or less and there are also Certified Captains with verifiable credentials who will go out on your own or their boat (they recommend using yours so the training will be specific to how yours is rigged) and spend a day or two giving you personal training for again around $100 and most are agreeable to having your family included for the same price. If planning on circumnavigating then there is also Chapman's School of Seamanship in Stuart Florida which would be the best choice and the couples rate is not bad at all for a 4 day course with accommodations. Chapman's also has donated boats they can sell you and are forthright enough to tell you up front which have known issues are better for blue water sailing, etc.

The Sailing Tubes while entertaining do many times present that you do not need to know how to sail and can figure it out as you go along, highlight gratuitous nudity and present near fatal incidents as humor. Some watch just to see what nasty laceration is the guy going to get this time or for the yoga sessions.

Still if someone handed me the keys to a brand new 2.5 million dollar sailboat saying it was mine if I posted a 15 minute video once or twice a month I might consider it. No nudity but maybe a loin cloth... Just looked in the mirror and we'd better keep it a mystery all covered up in baggies and long sleeves so forget the loincloth. ;>

BTW: Abandoning a boat on public waters or land is a Felony in Florida so the owner can be prosecuted if they do not remove the boat.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

marketing is driving bad outcomes


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

On being a First Responder. While the term is used loosely First Responders are a team of Federally Recognized Individuals who have been Trained and Certified to be allowed into Disaster Areas to Assist Survivors, Survey Damage and Begin Re-establishing Order. 

Some have very specialized assignments like Triage of the injured to determine which to treat so that the most can be saved. I do not know if I would be up to that duty of marking people on the forehead with a colored permanent marker so that attendants will know which to rush into treatment and which to just try to comfort as they pass. 

It is a very solemn duty and you have to be prepared to just put your life and occupation on hold at a moments notice and bug out to the disaster area. One has to have the utmost respect for anyone who volunteers for this duty civilian or military.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SeaStar58 said:


> On being a First Responder. While the term is used loosely First Responders are a team of Federally Recognized Individuals who have been Trained and Certified to be allowed into Disaster Areas to Assist Survivors, Survey Damage and Begin Re-establishing Order.
> 
> Some have very specialized assignments like Triage of the injured to determine which to treat so that the most can be saved. I do not know if I would be up to that duty of marking people on the forehead with a colored permanent marker so that attendants will know which to rush into treatment and which to just try to comfort as they pass.
> 
> It is a very solemn duty and you have to be prepared to just put your life and occupation on hold at a moments notice and bug out to the disaster area. One has to have the utmost respect for anyone who volunteers for this duty civilian or military.


Saw this first hand during Katrina. I was one of the initial Red Cross voluenteers in Biloxii gulf coast area. I followed the first responders in before the situation was actually stabilized. The initial triage process was in effect and to me who was really unprepared for the devastation I saw and was now in the midst of, seeing the categorizing of people was very unnerving psychologically to me. I had seen death before but was unprepared for the overwhelming despair of the residents let alone trying to deal with the absolute devastation which is was surrounded by on a grand scale.

The training of the real first responders in emergency is apparent when you see professionals who work in the situation. First responders are trained in different areas and have different tasks. Some Are medical. This is what many people identify with. Some police who are there to establish the security in the situation ( ie the mass shootings we see) ( or even hostage situations) . Some are infrastructure specialists like electricity, sewerage, water, building structures, . Some are even psychological to help the actual first responders in other disciplines cope with what they are seeing/ feeling being placed in this situation. They helped me greatly understand what I saw in Katrina.

First Responder really is a specific person / category depending on the crisis so their is no overall definition or criteria. It certainly doesn't necessarily mean the first to arrive on the scene.

In a boating emergency situation rescuing people certainly many CG as well as law enforcement have been trained in elements of initial response. Many have trained and practiced protocols which allow them to effectively deal with emergency situations . These are some of the elements of a first responder. The overriding premise is to stabilize the situation. Deal with the trauma through the triage process. Keep the responders safe from injury . Life comes first . ( both the responders and the visctims) Then property.

It's impossible to place a cookie cutter tag on who/ what is a first responder. However worldwide many people share the protocols on these situations so there are good or perfected practices in dealing with whatever emergency is encountered.


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Cultural differences can not be easily understood by travellers. But it's very important to be able to identify these differences... That's education ☺
> 
> Mark


Even in the same country people might use a term to inflate their deeds. Case in point what is considered a "rescue dog":


----------



## dixiedawg (Sep 22, 2013)

SeaStar58 said:


> Abandoning a boat on public waters or land is a Felony in Florida so the owner can be prosecuted if they do not remove the boat.


Yeah this is the only part of the story I care at all about.

I pass no judgements whatsoever on the two kids. Less prepared people have cut the lines and lived the dream successfully.

But they made an expensive mess on my beach, and I don't want to pay for it. If they clean up after themselves, I will think no ill of them. If they don't, hopefully the treehuggernazis in the .gov will actually do something productive for once, and go after them and their now $16000 GFM loot.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Chef2Sail - What the Presidents First Responders deal with will unnerve any who are not fully prepared (as if you really can ever really be prepared 100%). What friends who were on the team sent to Haiti went through was horrific beyond polite conversation. 

Being the first to respond to an accident, fire, person with a health issue is quite different from being an official First Responder (Many times an unpaid volunteer who without compensation goes into a known dangerous situation where the regular governing authority for the area can't cope with the situation). 

While I can understand the humor intended I really don't appreciate seeing coroners type hearses with "Last Responder" painted artfully on them. That's just wrong.

Someone doing CPR to "Another One Bites the Dust" instead of the more acceptable "Staying Alive" also ranks up there.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

dixiedawg said:


> Yeah this is the only part of the story I care at all about.
> 
> I pass no judgements whatsoever on the two kids. Less prepared people have cut the lines and lived the dream successfully.
> 
> But they made an expensive mess on my beach, and I don't want to pay for it. If they clean up after themselves, I will think no ill of them. If they don't, hopefully the treehuggernazis in the .gov will actually do something productive for once, and go after them and their now $16000 GFM loot.


Abandoned boats have become a blight here that is for sure. Places where this happens with high frequency are become Islands of Abandoned Boats and it has become very costly to clean them up especially those with inboards with oil and diesel or gasoline in them. In some areas crews are going out with Officers to get Certificates of Compliance written up on those where they can't identify the owner of record and then they are either awarded to the one who reported them as their titled property, sold at auction or winched to shore cut up by a crew armed with chainsaws to be bagged up and carted off in a trash barge.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> To me, a hero is someone who is risking their own life to protect another. Every cop, every firefighter, every soldier.


If every soldier, firefighter, ambo, is a hero what do you call a soldier who gets the US Medal of Honor?

What do you call a fireman who gets the Public Safety Officer Medal of Valor?

Or someone who gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom?

If every one in uniform is a hero then describe this person: Fallen Sergeant Robert Wilson III (Philadelphia Police Department, PA) for giving his life to protect innocent civilians. Sergeant Wilson put himself in harm's way during an armed robbery, drawing fire from the assailants and suffering a mortal wound as he kept store employees and customers safe.

A hero is not a normal person doing their duty. A hero is a person who does a selfless act of courage far above and beyond their duty.

☺


----------



## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> If every soldier, firefighter, ambo, is a hero what do you call a soldier who gets the US Medal of Honor?
> 
> What do you call a fireman who gets the Public Safety Officer Medal of Valor?
> 
> ...


I do think that we have experienced a LOT of "grade inflation" when it comes to terms like hero, and though I assume most of it is well meaning, it unintentionally does a disservice to REAL heroes who have voluntarily put their own welfare or even their own life, at great risk to benefit others. It's gotten so that the word hero is often used just to make someone feel good for doing just what is expected of them even when they were in no real danger, and it's especially overused in professional sports where the supposed "hero" is paid more in a week than most of us will see in a lifetime, and the biggest risk he encountered was a sprained ankle (fully insured, of course).

But to me, rather than a title, the term "first responder" is a descriptive one that applies to all those who arrive at emergency situations and attempt to help those in need , often in disregard to the possibility that the dangerous situation is not yet fully neutralized. Usually, but not always, first responders are there in some official capacity such as fireman, ambulance crew, police officer, marine patrol, Coast Guard, etc. but not all firemen or police are first responders. Only very occasionally a first responder will do something that I would actually call heroic, but I consider all of those whose job description or own personal code requires them to rush in to help out when others are rushing to get away from the danger or unpleasantness that exists to be people worthy of more admiration and respect than most are.

You're right that the definition of many terms such as these vary as you travel and cross physical or ethnic borders or are translated into another language, but I think we all know a heroic action when we see one, and when something bad happens, we can see who the first responders are, and aren't, no matter what uniform they have on.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> If every soldier, firefighter, ambo, is a hero what do you call a soldier who gets the US Medal of Honor?


A Medal of Honor recipient. I've met more than one. They never want to be called heroes. Most were scared to death and acting on auto pilot.



> A hero is not a normal person doing their duty.


I get your point on their being varying degrees. However, rushing into a burning building for a living is heroic in my book. Most would helplessly watch it burn and risk the entire neighborhood. I don't care if they get a medal for it. In fact, stopping a speeding car on a lonely highway at night and walking up to it, with the demonstrable risk of being shot, is heroic. Who else would take a job, with a risk like that? There have been cops randomly shot, while sitting in their car. It's heroic to take the job, IMO. But, I get your point about degree. As stated, I don't think heart surgeons or athletes are heroes. Some are role models, but few are even that anymore.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

The hero word is over used and unnecessary. Some people are extremely selfless and knowingly risk their own safety of life to save another. This is very noble and laudable. Some professional involve risk AND are helping professions... police, fire, rescue. Doctors and nurses... aside from those in war are generally not at risk of their lives.

It's also a bit insane to give up your life to save another... but parents will do things like this.

this is all off topic...


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

SanderO said:


> ...
> It's also a bit insane to give up your life to save another... ...


Is this a personal feeling you have or something taught?


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> Is this a personal feeling you have or something taught?


taught? What kind of a question is that? And why does it matter to you?


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

SanderO said:


> taught? What kind of a question is that? And why does it matter to you?


I didn't know if this is being 'teached' now to people..or if it was just a personal conviction. 
Seemed a bit unusual, so I asked....
Simple curiosity


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> I didn't know if this is being 'teached' now to people..or if it was just a personal conviction.
> Seemed a bit unusual, so I asked....
> Simple curiosity


I am not motivated to do heroic things. I am motivated to be considerate, helpful and respectful of other human beings.

About you registered user... were you taught to be a hero?


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I am not motivated to do heroic things. I am motivated to be considerate, helpful and respectful of other human beings.
> 
> About you registered user... were you taught to be a hero?


Hero and heroic are used differently.
And both are subjective.

You are the better and were not 'taught', so I have an opportunity to...learn from you.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

SanderO said:


> TIt's also a bit insane to give up your life to save another... but parents will do things like this.





RegisteredUser said:


> Is this a personal feeling you have or something taught?





SanderO said:


> taught? What kind of a question is that? And why does it matter to you?


It seems horribly judgemental, never mind selfish.

I doubt it matters to Registered, I know it doesn't matter to me.

Why does it matter? It seems that all the people that feel we should be forced to care for others in the form of taxes/welfare are completely unwilling to do good things for others unless forced to do so.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Its called principled love through the ages when someone risks his life out of compassion and brotherly love to save others.

"It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known."

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. ... "

"The needs of the many outweigh those of the one or the few"

Even "Hardened Criminals" sometimes find that they have this love inside them and may themselves be found running into a burning building to save a child they heard crying or similar. 

It's a built in noblest trait of humanity that you would have to work hard to deny or be absolutely frozen in fear and afterwards people who did deny it letting others perish because they were unwilling to face giving the full measure of devotion then have a troubled conscience plaguing them the rest of their lives. 

Not insane/crazy but loving and giving people who at the core of their being deeply care for their friends, neighbors and family.

However this is different than rescuing someone from a financially dumb mistake or inconvenient situation, this is about life and death. The Adults who sank their boat are facing a speed bump in life and hopefully won't be expecting the easy way out to become the norm.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

SeaStar58 said:


> The Adults who sank their boat are facing a speed bump in life and hopefully won't be expecting the easy way out to become the norm.


Love that you call them adults instead of "kids". "Kids" is an excuse.
As to your last sentence ...... too late it's already a Gofundme world and quickly becoming genetic.


----------



## Capt_Mike13 (Jan 12, 2018)

I agree a lot of people on here are so hard on people just starting out or even on people in General. Some of the sailors on here are such "Know it all's" or their way or no way attitudes? I would say from my 12 years experience of living aboard and cruising on the Gulf Waters, that it is probably the best place in the country to start sailing from. If you are going to ground out or sink a sailboat the Gulf of Mexico is the best place to do it. The Gulf is almost all sand, and if you ground out you can take an Anchor and your dingy and get yourself off the sandbar. The same sandbars I used to paint the bottom of my sailboats with so many times without ever taking it out of the water. Yet that's another story altogether lol. If you are new to sailing and sink your boat at least the Gulf is warm water and you won't freeze to death in it.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Capt_Mike13 said:


> If you are new to sailing and sink your boat at least the Gulf is warm water and you won't freeze to death in it.


And where I am at, if you are within 5 miles of shore, you can walk in after you sink.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Capt_Mike13 said:


> I agree a lot of people on here are so hard on people just starting out or even on people in General. Some of the sailors on here are such "Know it all's" or their way or no way attitudes? I would say from my 12 years experience of living aboard and cruising on the Gulf Waters, that it is probably the best place in the country to start sailing from. If you are going to ground out or sink a sailboat the Gulf of Mexico is the best place to do it. The Gulf is almost all sand, and if you ground out you can take an Anchor and your dingy and get yourself off the sandbar. The same sandbars I used to paint the bottom of my sailboats with so many times without ever taking it out of the water. Yet that's another story altogether lol. If you are new to sailing and sink your boat at least the Gulf is warm water and you won't freeze to death in it.


Just don't do it at feeding time. The Bull Sharks can get real aggressive at dusk and they like to bask alongside the sandbars. Sometimes from the air they can look like cord wood lined up on one side waiting for someone to swim over the bar.

Here is one lone shark in water that's just over knee deep.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

ianjoub said:


> ...It seems that all the people that feel we should be forced to care for others in the form of taxes/welfare are completely unwilling to do good things for others unless forced to do so.


You seem to hang out with very different people from the rest of us. Even people like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates would find this comment repugnant.


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> ....Even people like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates would find this comment repugnant.


Why do you think this?
Have you spoken with Warren and Bill about this?
Are they on SN?


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Rick,

Don’t engage .
Some of The new SN posters are ones whose profile is one who turns every thread into a political or moral statement. 
It’s hard to have a logical discourse with the self prescribed Socrates and Plato’s.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

ianjoub said:


> It seems that all the people that feel we should be forced to care for others in the form of taxes/welfare are completely unwilling to do good things for others unless forced to do so.


I would bet heavily that Sharon and I have given more to unfortunates in any given year than you have earned. We will not however contribute to idiots or those who beg via Gofundme. We give generously to those who will learn from life's hard lessons and progress. Our opinion is that the couple who precipitated this thread will go through life with their hands out and any contribution is wasted. We get to choose who benefits from our good will , not sanctimonious twits like you.


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

For every person who rakes in cash on social media funding, there are hundreds that get little. Social media is a virus, it multiplies exponentially once it really gets started. But most viruses just die under your finger nails.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

RobGallagher said:


> For every person who rakes in cash on social media funding, there are hundreds that get little. Social media is a virus, it multiplies exponentially once it really gets started. But most viruses just die under your finger nails.


It is unfortunately big business now. Yes too many who are in need due to no fault of there own get little or nothing at all while those that feel that they are entitled to a free ride grab for it, get it through social media and encourage others to do the same. Some get the brass ring as the expression goes however many do not and then turn to social media to bail them out because their attempt failed. Some point to Sailing La Vagabond as an example of this however that one worked hard until he was around 30 years old on oil rigs and invested around a quarter of a million dollars to follow his dream. His girlfriend thought of making a living by working to produce a regularly published sailing program to pay their way which they were fortunate enough to have a sponsor pick up because of their working hard at it. That is quite different from many of the others trying to do the same without out the hard work and saving.

The Pinocchio syndrome is what some consider it. "Take the Easy Road and go to Pleasure Island" however just like in that cautionary tale the "Easy Road" usually has some serious pitfalls.

I am just a soon to be unemployed senior citizen (Workforce Optimization) not quite eligible for retirement doing volunteer work in the interim to help the less fortunate in the community. No I do not want a GoFund me deal and will pay my own way since it's the pull yourself up by your own bootstraps example that I want to leave my children with.


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

SeaStar58 said:


> It is unfortunately big business now. Yes too many who are in need due to no fault of there own get little or nothing at all while those that feel that they are entitled to a free ride grab for it, get it through social media and encourage others to do the same. Some get the brass ring as the expression goes however many do not and then turn to social media to bail them out because their attempt failed. Some point to Sailing La Vagabond as an example of this however that one worked hard until he was around 30 years old on oil rigs and invested around a quarter of a million dollars to follow his dream. His girlfriend thought of making a living by working to produce a regularly published sailing program to pay their way which they were fortunate enough to have a sponsor pick up because of their working hard at it. That is quite different from many of the others trying to do the same without out the hard work and saving.
> 
> The Pinocchio syndrome is what some consider it. "Take the Easy Road and go to Pleasure Island" however just like in that cautionary tale the "Easy Road" usually has some serious pitfalls.
> 
> I am just a soon to be unemployed senior citizen (Workforce Optimization) not quite eligible for retirement doing volunteer work in the interim to help the less fortunate in the community.


Those who produce high quality, entertaining video are not taking the easy road. They probably work more than 40 hours a week and have invested a bit in equipment. Some people tend to get angry because they ask for donations. Then the cable/dish bill come, 543 channels of home shopping and infomercials.

Many of us now have a 'side hustle' even though we have a job. I have been slinging stuff on ebay (and now facebook) over the winter for years and make enough to cover much of my boat expenses. I don't even use a computer anymore. My smartphone with camera covers all bases. Hell, I once found a brand new aluminum boarding ladder floating in LI Sound....jibe, boat hook, snag, open the ebay app, snap a pic, list, sold before I made it home to my mooring...true story.

Then there are the viruses who ask for money because they are ill prepared and unfortunate yet still try to live the dream.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

RobGallagher said:


> Those who produce high quality, entertaining video are not taking the easy road. They probably work more than 40 hours a week and have invested a bit in equipment. Some people tend to get angry because they ask for donations. Then the cable/dish bill come, 543 channels of home shopping and infomercials.
> 
> Many of us now have a 'side hustle' even though we have a job. I have been slinging stuff on ebay (and now facebook) over the winter for years and make enough to cover much of my boat expenses. I don't even use a computer anymore. My smartphone with camera covers all bases. Hell, I once found a brand new aluminum boarding ladder floating in LI Sound....jibe, boat hook, snag, open the ebay app, snap a pic, list, sold before I made it home to my mooring...true story.
> 
> Then there are the viruses who ask for money because they are ill prepared and unfortunate yet still try to live the dream.


Rob - May-haps you need to re-read "Some point to Sailing La Vagabond as an example of this* however that one worked hard*..." this indicates they are not an example of those taking the Easy Road as does "making a living by working to produce a regularly published sailing program to pay their way which they were fortunate enough to have a sponsor pick up *because of their working hard at it*." shows they are not just looking for an easy way out but again doing hard work. They even went to school to learn how to make a better production having to work hard to get a passing grade.

Others looking at them try to do it without the "Hard Work" part or by skipping as much of the work part as they can which is part of the Pinocchio effect/syndrome. Working 10 to 15 years on offshore oil rigs to fund your dream and saving up a quarter of a million dollars or so to make it a reality is not taking the Easy Road. You misread however its late and its forgiven.


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

RobGallagher said:


> Those who produce high quality, entertaining video are not taking the easy road. They probably work more than 40 hours a week and have invested a bit in equipment. Some people tend to get angry because they ask for donations. Then the cable/dish bill come, 543 channels of home shopping and infomercials.
> 
> Many of us now have a 'side hustle' even though we have a job. I have been slinging stuff on ebay (and now facebook) over the winter for years and make enough to cover much of my boat expenses. I don't even use a computer anymore. My smartphone with camera covers all bases. Hell, I once found a brand new aluminum boarding ladder floating in LI Sound....jibe, boat hook, snag, open the ebay app, snap a pic, list, sold before I made it home to my mooring...true story.
> 
> Then there are the viruses who ask for money because they are ill prepared and unfortunate yet still try to live the dream.


Agree videoing and editing is still work. Making it look good is even harder. The added downside is you are down below in the cabin staring at a screen when you could be in the cockpit watching the waves, nature or stars. Might as well be in a cubicle on land. Well almost. 

Sounds like the Ebay is working out for you. I've been slowly getting rid of "stuff' accumulated over the years but, mostly donate it or recycle. I keep thinking about Ebay but, the idea of packing it up and going to the Post Office seems too much like "work". Though I hate to see things end up in a landfill knowing there might be someone out there who has a need or desire for some items. How often do you make a trip to the Post Office when selling?


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Here is a shot of the NOAA chart coming through the pass. Its a bit weird. Looks a bit confusing for an inexperienced navigator to try after dark, especially if they were relying entirely on a chart plotter- which some inexperienced folks do.

Its really kind of bizarre. It looks like there is a dredged channel leading under the bridge with a gate; first a green on the left and red on the right. Then the dredged channel appears to curve to the left and the next green is to the right of the dredged channel and in the middle of the natural channel. Then there is another gate with the green on the left of the dredged channel and a red on the right.

It seems to me navigation in the vicinity of the second green could be tricky because if you keep the green to starboard as the chart seems to indicate there is no marker to indicate the location of the shoaling to the left.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mbianka said:


> ....I keep thinking about Ebay but, the idea of packing it up and going to the Post Office seems too much like "work"....


I sold a spare outboard propeller on eBay, just to see what it was like. I was amazed at how simple it was. You really need a PayPal account as well.

Naturally, it was a specific propeller for a specific motor, so finding someone nationwide that needed it was cool. It was a few years old, but never used. I sold it for about 1/3 original cost.

I also set up the sale to require the buyer to pay postage. As soon as the auction was over (only 1 bidder at my minumum bid), eBay offered to email me the shipping label, prepaid by charging the buyer. Slap it on and drop it off.

The only hassle is having the proper boxing supplies. If one was selling a number of different things, one would have to buy a good selection of boxes. The buyer can be charged the couple of dollars for those too. You might even be able to charge the buyer for a Drop and Ship store to package for you, but you'll need to estimate what that is.

The two biggest tricks to successfully selling in eBay are: Tell the absolute truth about your item and upload pictures of anything worn, scratched, etc, then ship it out immediately. No buyer wants to wait. If you mess either of these up, you'll get negative feedback on your account and find it hard to sell more things.

You should at least try an experiment with something small.


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Arcb said:


> It seems to me navigation in the vicinity of the second green could be tricky because if you keep the green to starboard as the chart seems to indicate there is no marker to indicate the location of the shoaling to the left.


At first glance it does. But a closer look shows a 2-3 foot shoal to the left of the second green. It looks like the second green was moved in position to reflect shoaling into the original channel and reflected on the chart. The channel markings on the chart were not moved. None the less one should keep the second green to port when entering from the open water as their was plenty of water (10 feet) to the right of it as show on the chart. I think it was mentioned they were using two year old charts. Things might have changed post hurricane IRMA and the chart you called up is the latest update reflecting these changes.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Right, I checked the google earth images before I posted. The water does look good in the marked channel, but I know not everybody flies their routes with google earth before plotting a route. These folks appear to have timed there entrance through the pass to coincide within an hour or so of low tide in the dark, so Im guessing they are amongst the crowd who isnt cross referenceing multiple sources for voyage planning.

Edit: in addition they had a bridge opening to manage in the pass. Lots of multi tasking. Add all these factors together and it starts to look a little reckless.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Some may even call the Marina to send someone out to guide them through the channel especially after dark at low tide in a fixed keel boat. Arcb and his Bay Hen are a more perfect match for our shallow waters and such with the 9 inches draft with the keel up and motoring.

Even on the sailing channels where they encourage folks to go out, take a chance and live their dream will when coming into a strange port when its getting dark document how they called the marina to see if a pilot or local was available to guide them in.

Whatever monies they have left after paying the removal fees for their wreck they should invest in lessons at an institution like Chapman's if they intend on sailing to unfamiliar places right out of the gate plus hold back enough money to get a good marine survey before signing on the dotted line and purchasing another boat.

Me I am pretty much set on volunteering to help the boat mechanic at the local non-profit sailing center to be part of helping teach kids and families how not to get into these types of situations and learn best practice on the water. I really prefer the Proactive approach that prevents incidents to being Reactive afterwards.


----------



## Skyeterrier (Feb 11, 2016)

They changed their gofundme page. After raising the bulk of the money it's been altered. The page used to say the funds were first for removal of the boat. Now that has been edited out and only getting a new boat is mentioned, and comments are disabled. And their facebook page has been taken private.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Blowback. How quickly the great hive mind turns on us.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Fishing Captains from the area who were interviewed last night brought up the point that Johns Pass is not really suitable for ocean going vessels since at low tide it is less than 4 feet deep where you have to cross over. It would have to be dredged constantly for deep draft vessels to navigate it safely. The Army Corp of Engineers is slated to do some work on it this spring (delayed from January) however until then deep draft sailboats really should not enter it. The marina they scheduled with should have told them this up front. Yes Irma shifted some sandbars however the currents there do that constantly making dredging it a temporary fix.

There is a good reason why the shoal keel is preferred in the area and that is because of the shallow passes and shoals prevalent in the area. It is also surprising that none of the locals in Tarpon Springs warned them not to take that boat into Johns Pass. Its not that far away. I really don't think about it too much because I will be mostly on a Modified Semi-V, Swing Keel, Dagger Board or Shoal Keel boat drawing 6 inches to 2 1/2 feet and on the dagger board or swing keel boats will be under power when crossing over.

As for the cleanup well they are the owners of record and still responsible for the cleanup. I hope they use the money they received to cleanup their mess regardless of how it came about. If they do not then there is still the possibility of being brought up on a Felony Boat Abandonment Charge. Maning up an paying for your mistakes is part of growing up and being an adult.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Prominent hazard notes on Active Captain.

https://activecaptain.com/hazards/43409

https://activecaptain.com/hazards/80117


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Arcb said:


> Prominent hazard notes on Active Captain.
> 
> https://activecaptain.com/hazards/43409
> 
> https://activecaptain.com/hazards/80117


That December 2017 report is something that all the locals should have been telling them about. Well known and on the plate list of the Army Corp of Engineers to look into. They have been trying to mitigate things by pulling sand from there for the beach reclamation projects but there's more shifting sand there then the beach reclamation folk can transport on their budgets.

Some of the old timers in the area had been pitching in and one even built and operated his own dredge for a number of years to help out. I wonder how new environmental regulations would treat that.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I suppose it would have been nice if some one in Tarpon Springs mentioned it, if they even said where they were going. We don't know why they left when they did though. 1600 hrs is a really bizzarre time to choose to leave on a 30-35 mile voyage. It doesnt really seem like they had to be somewhere for work or anything.

But there are information sources readily available and even free for somebody who wants to do some planning to see whats in front of them. Google Earth, NOAA charts, Active Captain to name a few. The bridge combined with the shifting narrow shoaled in channel would be enough to scare me off, I dont like bridge openings in broad daylight, too much that can go wrong if the bridge doesnt open in time.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Sunken sailboat causing safety concerns for boaters in John?s Pass | WFLA.com

Boats still there and the locals are getting ticked off. I guess they know these kids have accepted $16000 in hand outs and so far havent paid to have it salvaged.

Hope they do the right thing.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

With the weather being mild in the mid 80's and clear for over a week now it has made for a fairly easy recovery especially for such a small boat. Lets face it we are not talking about a 20 ton monster here but something with the keel broken off that could be air bagged, towed off to the travel lift and already been chopped up in the dumpster by the end of the day.

1600 hours is about the latest you want to be coming in as far as nightfall is concerned especially in an unfamiliar shoal area. Departure should have been as close to 9 am as possible right after the morning fog had lifted. However many of the romantic sailing blogs promote the no schedules no hurry lifestyle not the rush to make port in daylight at the proper tides mentality.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SeaStar58 said:


> With the weather being mild in the mid 80's and clear for over a week now it has made for a fairly easy recovery especially for such a small boat. Lets face it we are not talking about a 20 ton monster here but something with the keel broken off that could be air bagged, towed off to the travel lift and already been chopped up in the dumpster by the end of the day...


Are you volunteering? It's easy to say "that's easy, someone else should just do it," but people don't do this for a hobby. Someone has to pay.

Maybe someone ought to alert the local authorities to the presence of their GoFundMe page so they can put some heat on them to do the right thing and fork over the money. Othewise they'll get another boat and sink it on the way out. :frown

Also, is the boat leaking fuel (yet)? Environmental damages can be huge, which is why proper yacht policies have over $900,000 coverage for fuel spills. Which is also why good samaritans won't touch it for free, because if it's not leaking yet, it might start leaking after they touch it, and then they own the environmental liability.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> Are you volunteering? It's easy to say "that's easy, someone else should just do it," but people don't do this for a hobby. Someone has to pay.
> 
> Maybe someone ought to alert the local authorities to the presence of their GoFundMe page so they can put some heat on them to do the right thing and fork over the money. Othewise they'll get another boat and sink it on the way out. :frown
> 
> Also, is the boat leaking fuel (yet)? Environmental damages can be huge, which is why proper yacht policies have over $900,000 coverage for fuel spills.


Lets take a moment to consider that they have already been gifted $16,000 to pay to clean up the mess that they made. They already have $6,000 more than they invested in the boat along with its outfitting and already have it very very easy. The authorities are aware as this has been on the local news on a regular basis so I would not be surprised if they were already looking at garnishing those funds. Facing Felony Charges by the State should be pressure enough the get it done using funds received for free if one has any moral fiber in them. The first step in this process occurred the first day when they were informed by the Coast Guard about their responsibility to have their now abandoned boat removed. As for fuel in this 20 something foot sailboat. Are we talking 5, 10 or 20 gallons? Its not the Argo Merchant or Exxon Valdez.

Why would anyone volunteer to do what they have been given $16,000 to pay for? There are plenty of competent salvage companies familiar with removing damaged boats from Johns Pass with all the equipment, certifications, licensing, insurances and permits required to do it so why would you even ask if an elderly disabled person would do for them what they have already been given the money to take care of using the professionals in the area?

They were handed the money to do this for the asking, now its time for them to hand that money over to a salvage operator to get their mess cleaned up. Its not really going to cost them anything if they don't wait for things to get out of hand then even after floating it off to the dump they could end up with a few thousand more than they started out with.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Sea Star....where do you keep your boat?


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

On a trailer beside the house about 100 feet above sea level where I can anchor it to the ground with augers during a predicted wind even. I am between boats right now and considering switching to sail however the next one may be on a trailer at a sailing center in Old Clearwater Harbor between Tarpon Springs and Johns pass. Been here for almost 30 years now. I may take out a rental at SandKey (Clearwater Harbor section) or Fred Howard (Tarpon Springs) and Dunedin Causeway is another place I am fond of. Fort Desoto is another place I may haunt but usually stay away from Johns Pass which is just a bit South of the Fort.

Have also considered getting some lessons sailing on the Western Union in the Keys or at Chapmans School in Stuart.

Had my knees bent backwards when a ladder failed on me and I fell 25 feet to the concrete so as a senior citizen who walks with a cane I keep it simple with trailerable boats that I can handle and aren't that difficult for a person with limited mobility to maintain economically. Full positive flotation is also a must for anything I will consider so it stays above water and Seatow or the Sheriff will be able to tow it off immediately in case of a mishap.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Explains why you know that area so well
St John pass looks tough for a sailboat on a good day


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SeaStar58 said:


> ....I am between boats right now and considering switching to sail .......


Ahhhh. Explains your sensitivity to my tongue in cheek stinkpot crack in the other thread. It's all for fun and most of us have spent plenty to time on powerboats. You'll have to get used to it on the enlightened side. 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/2051395442-post14.html


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I suspect there is no law that allows for pre-emptive garnishing of those funds. I wouldn't be surprised if the municipality must first incur the actual expense of recovery, then pursue a judgement, then a garnishment. It may also be interesting to know what remedies there are for a local municipality to collect a fine. It's not uncommon that they have the authority to assess one, but little authority or resources to enforce collection, especially outside their jurisdiction.

I also suspect that professional wreck recovery will be pretty expensive. While it may be easy, it may not be too. The wreck recovery operation takes on some risk in the equation, for which they'll want to be paid, despite whether it goes smoothly.

It's pretty rare that a person who has near zero, when faced with $16k that falls out of the air, will voluntarily give it away. I hope they are better than average. 

The way to handle this is to have the USCG or an LEO knock on their door and have a chat. Helps them understand their obligations.


----------



## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

But Minne I thought the enlightened ones were the ones who had given up boats all together. I know if I won the lottery that I would just keep the boat until the money ran out. If I take the boat out for one day and have three days of work to do on it afterwords and think Oh Yeah that's a pretty good trade off then I am obviously not very enlightened.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

contrarian said:


> But Minne I thought the enlightened ones were the ones who had given up boats all together. I know if I won the lottery that I would just keep the boat until the money ran out. If I take the boat out for one day and have three days of work to do on it afterwords and think Oh Yeah that's a pretty good trade off then I am obviously not very enlightened.


Enlightened is simply choosing a sailboat over a stinkpot. You made up the rest.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> I suspect there is no law that allows for pre-emptive garnishing of those funds. I wouldn't be surprised if the municipality must first incur the actual expense of recovery, then pursue a judgement, then a garnishment. It may also be interesting to know what remedies there are for a local municipality to collect a fine. It's not uncommon that they have the authority to assess one, but little authority or resources to enforce collection, especially outside their jurisdiction.
> 
> I also suspect that professional wreck recovery will be pretty expensive. While it may be easy, it may not be too. The wreck recovery operation takes on some risk in the equation, for which they'll want to be paid, despite whether it goes smoothly.
> 
> ...


That chat if I understand correctly from the initial reports ran on the local news here occurred on day one when they were informed that they had to remove the wreck since leaving it there was a Felony in Florida. Can't get much more serious than to be informed by a USCG Officer that you would be guilty of a Felony and so charged if you did not remove the boat.


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

contrarian said:


> ... If I take the boat out for one day and have three days of work to do on it afterwords and think Oh Yeah that's a pretty good trade off then I am obviously not very enlightened.


Perhaps...But then, that is the Zen of sailboat maintenance. It's the process not the product that counts, Non?


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SeaStar58 said:


> That chat if I understand correctly from the initial reports ran on the local news here occurred on day one when they were informed that they had to remove the wreck since leaving it there was a Felony in Florida. Can't get much more serious than to be informed by a USCG Officer that you would be guilty of a Felony and so charged if you did not remove the boat.


Good to hear, but they were penniless (so to speak) at the time. I favor a new visit that makes it known that they are aware these two now have the resources to fix this.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

chef2sail said:


> Explains why you know that area so well
> St John pass looks tough for a sailboat on a good day


When you drive over the bridge crossing the entrance at low tide you can see that you don't want to be in any sail boat with the centerboard down or a deep draft fixed keel inside the pass. Groundings by visitors are quite common in the entire Tampa Bay area even when the sand bars are clearly marked too however most of those are rentals which are maintained and inspected so its often just a hull rash or damaged prop event and maybe a quick tow. Boat rental companies don't want their boats sitting abandoned on a sand bar since its not good advertising for them to be seen there nor is getting a warning about them being there good for their insurance rates.

The last count I read indicated that over the course of a year that about 10 times or so the population of the State of Florida vacations here so plenty of visitors to go around here grounding boats quite regularly. Spring Break will get real busy out on the water too.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

The creator of the GoFundMe account has twice altered the campaign statement since it was created.

- It first stated that the entire purpose of the fund was to remove the boat from the water.
- The first time it was altered, it stated that the purpose of the fund was to help them buy a new boat to continue their trip...and, oh yeah, remove the boat from the water.
- The next time it was altered, all mention of removing the wreckage has been completely deleted.

I've filed a fraud report with Gofundme, based on that.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Even more reason not to transit at night . At least in the day you’d have a chance if experienced to read the bars.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Observe the progression of campaign statements:


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ajax_MD said:


> Observe the progression of campaign statements:


That is fraud. Documented.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> That is fraud. Documented.


In the interest of seeing "what would happen," I had made a $50 donation. GFM has refunded my money once I presented them the screenshots and explained that I made my donation on the premise that it would be used to remove the wrecked boat, not buy them a new boat while they skip off and leave the original wreck next to a channel.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I reported it to Gofundme too. I didnt donate, but it really pisses me off knowing somebody is using charity intended for a pollution clean up to buy themselves a new yacht.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

BTW - This happened in Johns Pass near Madeira Beach in the St Pete/Clearwater area on the Gulf Coast while St. Johns is a river (largest in the state) with its inlet/pass on the Atlantic Coast near Jacksonville. I know I mess up and get caught repeating calling it St. Johns too.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Ajax_MD said:


> In the interest of seeing "what would happen," I had made a $50 donation. GFM has refunded my money once I presented them the screenshots and explained that I made my donation on the premise that it would be used to remove the wrecked boat, not buy them a new boat while they skip off and leave the original wreck next to a channel.


The locals are getting ticked about this one. If these folks don't start cleaning that up shortly using that GoFund money there is probably going to be some pressure put to get Felony charges filed more quickly.

Salvage guy I know who works that area and spoke with this afternoon says that its a very easy retrieval especially since the keel is not on it. On the quality of the Columbia well that's a mixed bag depending on whether it was a kit version, west coast, east coast built and who owned the company at the time it was built. Some were really poorly put together from the word go.

Here is the data on the Columbia 28 which I believe is what was earlier posted to be the boat in question:
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=789

Almost half the weight is in the keel if I understand correctly and all the tanks on it are relatively small. 18 gallons water and 12 gallons gas.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

That's what happens when you go public. These two literally had nothing. They could have phoned a relative for bus fare and slipped away. The state would have hired a clean up crew to salvage the mess. Now, their publicity has tied them to the scene. Their plan is obviously to let the water break up the wreck so they can shrug and say "Aww look, it's all gone and spread out. Guess it's time to buy a new boat."

These...people are my own kids' age and in their story they complain about the rat race and leaving it. In your early 20's? Really? This is the millennial entitlement attitude that older people grump about.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Kids these days, amirite?

Nearly every stereotype about Millenials is patently untrue. They're just people, screwing up in a screwed up world just like every other generation.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

amwbox said:


> Kids these days, amirite?
> 
> Nearly every stereotype about Millenials is patently untrue. They're just people, screwing up in a screwed up world just like every other generation.


I agree in one sense as generalizing about any group isn't not necessarily accurate

So how many millennials do you employ?

I employ over 200. 25 % of my work force. To believe that what drives this age group or their skill sets compared is to be a complete ostrich. That's not stereotyping , that's a proven fact.

Many of them are very good with advanced computer skills . Just like every other group. 
The entitlement comments rings true with the ones who are not.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

That quote is a bunch of bunk: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehaving-children-in-ancient-times/

Written as recently as 1907, so I do not subscribe to your assertion that Millennial stereotypes are totally without merit or that children have been behaving this way for thousands of years, and that parents have allowed it.

I don't see how a particular pattern of behavior can exist unchanged, throughout time, when technology continually creates new opportunities for new types of behavior, or greatly amplifies older behaviors.

I've met some damned fine Millennials. Beautiful young people who work hard and are incredibly smart. Unfortunately, I have not met nearly enough of these. A greater number seem to be of the "wrecked my boat and you should give me money" type.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Ajax_MD said:


> That's what happens when you go public. These two literally had nothing. They could have phoned a relative for bus fare and slipped away. The state would have hired a clean up crew to salvage the mess. Now, their publicity has tied them to the scene. Their plan is obviously to let the water break up the wreck so they can shrug and say "Aww look, it's all gone and spread out. Guess it's time to buy a new boat."
> 
> These...people are my own kids' age and in their story they complain about the rat race and leaving it. In your early 20's? Really? This is the millennial entitlement attitude that older people grump about.


They have already been recorded by the Coast Guard as the responsible parties so it should be pretty hard to skip out regardless of the GoFundMe page. They pursue Felons pretty aggressively and leaving the boat there is a Felony here in Florida. The fines for letting it break up could cost them more dearly than the cleanup would have.

I would not want a Felony Charge hanging over my head. Won't look good on their resume's or enhance their opportunities to get employment in the future. Think about the impact on getting a loan or credit for repairs (could have to go back to GoFundMe again instead). But then again their ultimate plan is to leave the country and escape responsibility so who knows what they are thinking now. Get another boat fast and sail off to happiness? Maybe they never read "Man Without a Country". Got to be pretty miserable after a while. Especially if they sink the new boat too.

Hopefully next time I drive by Johns Pass I will see a cleanup crew out there that they are just quietly working with to do the right thing. One can always hope.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

LOL...judging by the behavior that put them aground in the first place, I'd say that you are attributing way too much foresight to this couple. 
I seriously doubt that they are thinking about the ability to obtain future credit, or jobs...or much of anything.


----------



## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

amwbox said:


> Kids these days, amirite? Nearly every stereotype about Millenials is patently untrue. They're just people, screwing up in a screwed up world just like every other generation.


I don't really know much about "millenials", but I do know the stereotypes we now spread about our generation being so tough and spending all day outdoors doing daring things is a bunch of crap. We watched reruns of Star Trek and Bonanza all afternoon and had baked frozen chicken for dinner, watching M.A.S.H. reruns in the evenings. I remember my mom complaining we didn't go outside and play baseball like kids her generation (supposedly) did.

(Actually, after our tv broke during a scuffle over whether it was bedtime or time to watch another episode of Mannix, we did end up spending the rest of our childhood reading books, playing music, and being outside, but that was hardly typical)


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

willyd said:


> I don't really know much about "millenials", but I do know the stereotypes we now spread about our generation being so tough and spending all day outdoors doing daring things is a bunch of crap. We watched reruns of Star Trek and Bonanza all afternoon and had baked frozen chicken for dinner, watching M.A.S.H. reruns in the evenings. I remember my mom complaining we didn't go outside and play baseball like kids her generation (supposedly) did.
> 
> (Actually, after our tv broke during a scuffle over whether it was bedtime or time to watch another episode of Mannix, we did end up spending the rest of our childhood reading books, playing music, and being outside, but that was hardly typical)


Grew up playing outside, bike riding, sledding, hiking, etc. It was real when I was a kid. If you said you were board my Dad would take pity on you and give you some yard work to do or have you clean the garage/cellar. We quickly learned to not be board nor spend too much time in front of the TV. Dad knew which fuses to pull and lock up to shut us down too.

My Dad was born in 1906, got stuck visiting in Italy while there with my grandparents for the duration of WWI, at 14 worked his passage back to the States after the war was over to get employment while finishing school to earn money to get the rest of the family back to the US, paid his way through MIT earning a Masters Degree as an Electrical Engineer, was a Top Kick with the Army Rangers assigned as Island Raiders/Americal HQ Specialists during WWII who would hit the beaches long before the Marines got there and he kept us busy for a certainty even if it was for a forced mar.... err uh... nice walk in the country.  He was the engineer who kept the rollers on our printing presses covered in rubber, oversaw the formulations for making our Keds/Cons, NHL Hockey Pucs, Navy Life Rafts, May Wests, Diving Suits, Helcat FireFighters Gear and more for almost 50 years. He was a busy person and made the time to ensure we were busy people too.

He had my Mom get us guitars, harmonicas, a piano, etc to help us stay busy and got us subscriptions to the likes of Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and other magazines that lead to us doing family project together. Taught us to build things, garden/plant/harvest, repair electronics, work on engines/equipment/cars, design furniture, etc, etc, etc. It was great!


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

willyd said:


> I don't really know much about "millenials", but I do know the stereotypes we now spread about our generation being so tough and spending all day outdoors doing daring things is a bunch of crap. We watched reruns of Star Trek and Bonanza all afternoon and had baked frozen chicken for dinner, watching M.A.S.H. reruns in the evenings. I remember my mom complaining we didn't go outside and play baseball like kids her generation (supposedly) did.
> 
> (Actually, after our tv broke during a scuffle over whether it was bedtime or time to watch another episode of Mannix, we did end up spending the rest of our childhood reading books, playing music, and being outside, but that was hardly typical)


I actually did play outside for most of my childhood. My mother kicked me out of the house during the day. I didn't sit around watching TV all day. When I was 12, my parents bought me a little aluminum boat with an outboard. I motored all over Cape Coral, using the canals as roads, and fishing and swimming. We rode our bikes all over town. The video game system of the day was the Atari 2600. My parents forbade us from owning one. I only played it at friends' houses and that wasn't frequent.

At 17, I joined the US Navy and entered the submarine service. I've stood on the Arctic ice pack twice in separate missions. Submarine duty...or pretty much any duty in the US Navy is arduous, tedious and dangerous. In 2001, I transitioned to the Coastal Warfare community. I drove patrol boats, Humvees and carried a rifle. I deployed to the Near East and protected coalition shipping from suicide jockeys. I retired from the service at the end of 2010.

Since then, I've been a cubicle slave for a large defense contractor working my ass off as a network and systems engineer, growing and maintaining a large, global network for the JCS.

Yeah...*now* I'm a little lazier and watch a little more TV and I indulge in my sailing passion, but I feel that I've earned it. I'm still not done working. I've got somewhere between 19 and 25 years to go.

I'm not saying that any of this makes me the toughest sumbich in the world, but I am saying that it qualifies me to comment and critique something that is occurring right in front of me.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Ajax_MD said:


> That quote is a bunch of bunk: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehaving-children-in-ancient-times/
> 
> Written as recently as 1907, so I do not subscribe to your assertion that Millennial stereotypes are totally without merit or that children have been behaving this way for thousands of years, and that parents have allowed it.
> 
> ...


Too bad about the quote, I thought that was hilarious. Anyways, it's obviously cyclical. They said the same damn things about GenXers, and before them it was the "Me Generation" in the 70's. The old have been bitching about the young since the dawn of time. Its one of the very oldest cliches.

As for millennials:

BBC - Capital - What everyone gets wrong about 'millennial snowflakes'

^Pretty good summation. We had it _easy_ compared to this generation, starting out in the world. We were better paid, our schooling was relatively cheap, and rather than being buried under outrageous student debt we were able to leap right into things. We didn't spend our formative years watching the world economically self-destruct as they did during the 2008 crash...right when they needed to get started. Nothing else like that in a century. And, in point of fact, we were more likely top hop from job to job, more likely to wind up divorced, and less likely to be workaholics.

~~~

_Here are some of what those types of studies have unearthed:

Those spoiled youngsters are actually&#8230; not well-off. In the UK, millennials earned £8,000 less in their 20s than did Gen X. In Australia, households aged between 65 and 74 years old are $200,000 wealthier than their counterparts eight years ago, while households for those aged 25 to 34 actually went backwards in terms of real wealth.

In the US, both Generation X and Y both have amassed less wealth than their parents at the same age and are more likely to be under the poverty line in the US than previous generations.

All three countries fear that millennials will be the first generation to be worse off than their parents - and they aren't the only ones.

Despite the gig economy (and recession), as we've written about before, millennials are actually job-hopping less than their elders - and less than their elders did at the same age. In the UK, workers born in the mid-1980s changed jobs at less than half the rate of those born in the mid-70s at the same age. In the US, millennials are no more likely to job-hop than Gen X did at the same age; if anything, they stay with their employers longer.

When they do change their jobs, an international survey found they do so for the same pragmatic reasons - like making more money or having more responsibility - as Gen Xers and baby boomers. Only one in five millennials (21%) said they'd leave to follow their passion, more than baby boomers (16%) but less than Gen Xers (24%).

US millennials are less likely to take their allotted leave days than their elders (even though, being more junior, they get the least time off).

In the US, Gen Y are even more satisfied with aspects of the workplace - like their training and skills development, or opportunities for promotion - than other generations.

Around the world, millennials are more likely to take a manager's direction: one study of 25,000 people across 22 countries found that 30% of baby boomers and 30% of Gen Xers agreed that "employees should do what their manager tells them, even when they can't see the reason for it," compared to 41% of millennials. _

~~~

I mean, how can old people sit around and complain about young people (and really, our anecdotes are useless against broader data) without any sense of irony?


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't really see what this has to do with millennials. These are two individual adults who made decisions. They may still do the clean up. I have run boats aground and made boo boos, its the bait and switch that irks me, asking for money to help with a clean up then changing the ad to say, well really we really just want a new yacht, better than the old one.

I have been around a few salvage operations. In general, the fresher the wreck, the easier and therefor cheaper the salvage. If it had been salvaged when that first news picture was taken, it might have been as simple as towing it to a travel lift. Now its full of sand and possibly broken up, lots more work.

In terms of playing outside, ya, I played outside when I was a kid, so did my parents, however, I knew lots of other kids that basically never left the city- so I am not sure its a generation thing, more of an individual thing. I wasn't too thrilled with the rat race when I was in my early 20s either, so I didn't join it. By 26 I was pulling 6 and 6 as a quartermaster on a science ship didn't have an apartment and didn't need one, so I know there are capable sailors and navigators at that age. The age and inexperience thing is no excuse, experience as a seaman isn't hard to come by for somebody willing to work. I didn't join shore life until I had a family at 38, and I still spend lots of time in the field, there is no requirement to join the rat race, its a choice folks make. I work with some very motivated millennials, so I am not buying the generation thing.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

> ^Pretty good summation. We had it easy compared to this generation, starting out in the world. We were better paid, our schooling was relatively cheap, and rather than being buried under outrageous student debt we were able to leap right into things. We didn't spend our formative years watching the world economically self-destruct as they did during the 2008 crash...right when they needed to get started. Nothing else like that in a century. And, in point of fact, we were more likely top hop from job to job, more likely to wind up divorced, and less likely to be workaholics.


I do agree with the summation. I will also point out that today's young people face social pressures like nothing we ever faced. When we were bullied, it ended at the school yard or the bus stop. Now, bullying follows kids home, online and is 24/7/365. There is no respite and I understand why some young people buckle and commit suicide. They definitely face unique challenges, but each generation has their unique burden to carry, such as world wars or economic collapses or social issues. Millennials don't get a pass on that.

I never said Millennials were "well off," I said that many of them are entitled. You don't get to be well off if you just stand around with your hand out. None of what you posted changes the fact that they will need to work hard to succeed. Some do, many don't.

My own kids are Millennials, and (to my shock and surprise) have thanked me for the values I taught them. They regale me with tales of friends and co-workers who fit the all the stereotypes. This makes my kids angry, because they work hard and don't like to be painted with that broad brush. My daughters agree that these stereotypes didn't just arrive out of thin air, and that their generation's behavior generated them. Now, they are working hard to overturn these prejudices.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Sure, but all I'm saying is that each generation faces their own set of challenges. Millenials, in my opinion, have been dealt a pretty rough hand in contrast with the prior generations who profited from the post-war prosperity wave and cheap educations and such. And it's not as though the Millenials have any lesser values, or are standing around with their hands out. They are actually working more than their parents and grandparents did.

Basically, I'm just saying that the stereotypes and characterizations of those guys are pretty unfair given the facts. We can all come up with any number of anecdotes...but there have actually been quite a lot of studies done on this very thing...and it's shown that actually, the differences in terms of work ethic and such from generation to generation actually cast Millenials in a positive light, not a bad one. They work _too much_, as opposed to not enough. They are the ones who've come up in this world of "vacations" where you are expected to be available via phone/social media for work tasks the entire time you're gone. Because of the growth the connected workplace, people are working more than ever. For us it's certainly a fresh hell...but for them it's normalcy. It's not healthy.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Um...I'm not sure I agree that Millennials implemented "working vacations." They are the victim of it and as such, are working harder. An older generation leveraged modern technology and implemented the working vacation. 

The connected work environment is a double-edged sword. Yay for telework where you run security scans in your PJ's but Boo for "vacation" because you're never really left alone.
My work is classified. I cannot enjoy the benefit of telework but neither can I be assaulted while out of the office with questions and tasks. I also tell my superiors that I'll be sailing for 10 days and will not have connectivity.

The disintegration of work/home borders isn't a problem isolated to one generation. We're all dealing with it and it's really a labor rights issue. Labor should demand compensation for "high availability." Unfortunately, collective bargaining is at its weakest point in years and we're all suffering from it.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Wow here come the old “ when I was young stories” and the ad naueseum studies of gen x, gen y, Millenials.

Yes there are many commonalities that all these groups share. However progressive generations ( I am a baby boomer) usually cannot understand the differing conditions and their societal affects

For instance I grew up watch on TV every night scenes of bloody American soldiers in firefights in Vietnam. Now it’s a sanitized drone strike from Nevada. I never had to worry about the average citizen shooting up my school with an AK47 in middle school and the need to do drills. 

So the differences are there for sure which create different attitudes. Hazel was the TV house cleaner not Rumba the robot. People wrote to each other or talked as there was no tweet. 

I employ many people across generational divides and would be very careful assigning an entire group a mantra. That being said I have had to figure out different strategies to mentor as well as entice positive performances and results for the X, Y, millennial continuum . Taking the “ well it was done this way when I was young” fails miserably. You can wax nostalgic amongst peers but if you want to reach other generations you have to listen to them to understand what makes them tick and address that. 

Watch the kids last night from Florida made me feel proud and hurt that they had to deal with what they do. Listening showed me some well thought out activists ( like the 60s ) . I have faith in them to shape their world . It’s the current people of my and next generation who I am growing short of faith with.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I’m thinking about what it’s really going to cost to raise this hulk. I think someone said 10 grand. Even if that’s true, they will then need to pay to have it chopped up and disposed of, or start incurring storage fees. This is a real mess for them.

They need food and shelter. Wonder how much of the GFM money is already being spent.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm thinking about what it's really going to cost to raise this hulk. I think someone said 10 grand. Even if that's true, they will then need to pay to have it chopped up and disposed of, or start incurring storage fees. This is a real mess for them.
> 
> They need food and shelter. Wonder how much of the GFM money is already being spent.


The day after they wrecked it in less than 4 feet of water at low tide it was an very easy float off of the 28 foot now keeless boat to the ramp on bags and toss it into a 40 foot dumpster with a payloader after draining the 12 gallon fuel tank according to the local salvage operators here (I spoke with some operators who are familiar with the area personally face to face about this). *The original cost estimate if they just went for it and had it done was $6,700*. Difficulty in retrieving the keel would depend on if its embedded in the bottom and how deeply. Its only a 3 1/4 ton boat with almost half that weight in the keel. At low tide you could almost drive a large payloader out there to retrieve it (not that I am recommending it).

Chopping it up is easy even if you can't afford the payloader when your short of cash, you can buy an inexpensive sawsall or electric chainsaw for less than $50 at Harbor Freight (there are more than three of them in the area) and cut it up into pieces yourself to save some money just be sure to bring a broom and shovel to clean up after yourself. The City of Clearwaters Dumpster fees are very reasonable too. Plus they may even turn a few bucks back into their pockets on the aluminum masts and stainless at the local metal yards.

If there is any escalation of costs its their own doing from procrastinating. Most locals manage to remove their wrecks in pretty short order especially when its a relatively small vessel like this Columbia and there are plenty of competent services and divers around here who are capable of doing it.

*I don't know what real high food and shelter expenses they incurred while staying with family in Jacksonville as GoFundMe accrued $16,000 for them to clean this up.*

This AFAIK is what a Columbia 28 with 4.33 feet of draft which sank in 3.5 feet of water looks like.


----------



## CrispyCringle (Jul 30, 2017)

Interesting. This thread has gone from original topic to defining "first responder". Which then morphed into a debate on what a "Hero" is. Then back on to the first topic. And now the great generational differences debate. Is there nothing that cannot be solved here?


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

CrispyCringle said:


> Interesting. This thread has gone from original topic to defining "first responder". Which then morphed into a debate on what a "Hero" is. Then back on to the first topic. And now the great generational differences debate. Is there nothing that cannot be solved here?


It's winter. I fall down the "forum rabbit hole." Fortunately, the weather is warming, and hopefully I'll be spending a lot less time online.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SeaStar58 said:


> The day after they wrecked it in less than 4 feet of water at low tide it was an very easy float off of the 28 foot now keeless boat to the ramp on bags and toss it into a 40 foot dumpster with a payloader after draining the 12 gallon fuel tank according to the local salvage operators here (I spoke with some operators who are familiar with the area personally face to face about this). *The original cost estimate if they just went for it and had it done was $6,700*. Difficulty in retrieving the keel would depend on if its embedded in the bottom and how deeply. Its only a 3 1/4 ton boat with almost half that weight in the keel. At low tide you could almost drive a large payloader out there to retrieve it (not that I am recommending it).
> 
> Chopping it up is easy even if you can't afford the payloader when your short of cash, you can buy an inexpensive sawsall or electric chainsaw for less than $50 at Harbor Freight (there are more than three of them in the area) and cut it up into pieces yourself to save some money just be sure to bring a broom and shovel to clean up after yourself. The City of Clearwaters Dumpster fees are very reasonable too. Plus they may even turn a few bucks back into their pockets on the aluminum masts and stainless at the local metal yards.
> 
> ...


Interesting post. Not sure where the $6700 came from, but it sounds about right to me. I did this calculation myself upon first discovering this thread. Without knowing Florida prices, I was figuring 8 hours at $500-1000/hour. That made me immediately skeptical of the $10000 they were saying they needed. I was, and still am skeptical of the $90. Is there anything through that pass that costs less than $90? If you have only have $90, skip the sketchy pass in the dark, go find a nice safe island in Tampa Bay to hide behind.

If the boat has indeed broken apart and filled with sand- $16k might not be enough. Don't know too many commercial divers that work for cheap. Still I would imagine they would have 30 days to pay. If they don't have insurance, they suck it up and go to the bank, ask for a line of credit, accept the terms that are offered, and work until its paid off.

Shipwreck does and should involve hardship, sorry, that's how it is, that's why most of us go out of our way to make our boats seaworthy and plan voyages that we are reasonably certain the boat and crew can handle.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

CrispyCringle said:


> Interesting. This thread has gone from original topic to defining "first responder". Which then morphed into a debate on what a "Hero" is. Then back on to the first topic. And now the great generational differences debate. Is there nothing that cannot be solved here?


Discussion forum.

Discuss.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Arcb said:


> Interesting post. Not sure where the $6700 came from, but it sounds about right to me. I did this calculation myself upon first discovering this thread. Without knowing Florida prices, I was figuring 8 hours at $500-1000/hour. That made me immediately skeptical of the $10000 they were saying they needed. I was, and still am skeptical of the $90. Is there anything through that pass that costs less than $90? If you have only have $90, skip the sketchy pass in the dark, go find a nice safe island in Tampa Bay to hide behind.
> 
> If the boat has indeed broken apart and filled with sand- $16k might not be enough. Don't know too many commercial divers that work for cheap. Still I would imagine they would have 30 days to pay. If they don't have insurance, they suck it up and go to the bank, ask for a line of credit, accept the terms that are offered, and work until its paid off.
> 
> Shipwreck does and should involve hardship, sorry, that's how it is, that's why most of us go out of our way to make our boats seaworthy and plan voyages that we are reasonably certain the boat and crew can handle.


$6700 was the price quote offered by the Coast Guard which was sited in one of the first ABC New reports which also revealed that they were staying with family in Jacksonville.

Yes how were they going to pay the mooring or docking fee at the marina and refill the gas tank before leaving for the Keys and points South with just $90. On a boat that only has a 12 gallon tank you really want it topped off before leaving on a long voyage and who knows how far they motored after leaving Tarpon at/past 4 PM.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'll bet the $90 was what they had in their pockets, but not what they had in their bank account.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Ajax_MD said:


> The creator of the GoFundMe account has twice altered the campaign statement since it was created.
> 
> - It first stated that the entire purpose of the fund was to remove the boat from the water.
> - The first time it was altered, it stated that the purpose of the fund was to help them buy a new boat to continue their trip...and, oh yeah, remove the boat from the water.
> ...


Just saw this in a group I am in. Please, if anyone knows this couple, please plead with them to do the right thing with their newfound money. It is not the job of the USCG or local community to clean up after them..

It is just offensive that they now have over 15k and the boat is still there....


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Good news, looks like the gentle application of internet pressure, stories in the press and complaints to Gofundme has had a positive effect. There Gofundme page has been changed a fourth time to say all funds would be used for the salvage operation and only remaining funds would be used to buy themselves a new boat.

https://www.gofundme.com/new-sailing-life


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

> The first thing we are doing is salvaging the lagniappe.


So far, all they are saying is they'll do it first. Not that they'll do it now. Hope someone lights a fire under their butts.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I just looked on their GFM page. Three separate donors gave them $1,000 each. Go figure.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> I just looked on their GFM page. Three separate donors gave them $1,000 each. Go figure.


As of Tuesday I will be unemployed. Perhaps I need to get me a GoFundMe page to help this unemployed poor elderly disabled person who only has $35 in his wallet and his little dog too. The little dog has allergies and a terrible rash to deal with also. It's really very sad. :crying

I have a dream of sailing and traveling to exotic locations. Who doesn't have dreams and aspirations?

*To be clear: Ain't gonna happen. I'll just get another job or start a business of my own before that.*

Yes light a fire to get it done now as in starting at sunrise first thing yesterday morning. Freezing or seizing the donated funds until the wreck is removed may be the what is needed now to promote the immediate action that was required 13,000 GoFundMe dollars ago. From what Minnewaska is relating they now should have about $13,000 more than the $6,700 the Coast Guard told them and ABC News the cleanup would cost when they first wrecked the boat. I have no doubt this option of freezing or seizing the funds is being looked at by a number of groups both private and governmental.

Who knows perhaps the Coast Guard may have also now sent them notice of the pending Felony charges against them with a deadline for action prompting this change of branding on GoFundMe.

This certainly has tarnished the validity of GoFundMe in the eyes of many me included.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

That's not how GFM works, nor civil proceedings.

Prosecution for the felony would be the most effective course, then the DA and/or judge has the most direct leverage.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't see this as an indictment of GoFundMe. I'm sure it's been a god send to many. I've donated a few times on GFM. One time was to help my niece's friend modify her car, with handicapped accessible controls and entry ramp. Her friend has Cerebral Palsy and is confined to a wheel chair. She had just graduated medical school. She had enough money to buy a used car, so she could commute to her new residency, but not enough to modify it. She's an inspirational kid. (p.s. her goal in medicine is to work with veterans that come back with severe injuries and disabilities)

It's the kids who aren't cleaning up the boat that seem to be the problem in this thread.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

GoFundMe does not appear to be policing themselves by the look of things and could become a vehicle for any con artist out their wanting to get some extra working capital regardless of how many other honest people in need that they help. This incident makes one question how many on there are just fakers milking it and which are truly honest and going to use the donations for the intended purpose.


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

SeaStar58 said:


> ...This incident makes one question how many on there are just fakers milking it


Unfortunately, more than a few. They exploit the tendency of others to sympathize with, and contribute to, to downtrodden, which is entirely "the(ir) intended purpose".


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> So far, all they are saying is they'll do it first. Not that they'll do it now. Hope someone lights a fire under their butts.


My impression is that their procrastination is deliberate. Their intention is to let the wave action do the dirty work for them. Then they will shrug and say "It's all in itty-bitty pieces now. No hazard, nothing to clean up." They'll skip merrily to the bank with their donations and do it all over again...or so they think.

I think their campaign was successful beyond their expectations and they are twisting themselves into knots trying to figure out a way to keep it all instead of cleaning up the mess.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Ajax_MD said:


> My impression is that their procrastination is deliberate. Their intention is to let the wave action do the dirty work for them. Then they will shrug and say "It's all in itty-bitty pieces now. No hazard, nothing to clean up." They'll skip merrily to the bank with their donations and do it all over again...or so they think.
> 
> I think their campaign was successful beyond their expectations and they are twisting themselves into knots trying to figure out a way to keep it all instead of cleaning up the mess.


Unfortunately for them they will still be facing Felony Charges and having that on their permanent record along with paying the fines and court costs which could eat up all the GoFundMe loot.

Even if it breaks up they will still be Felons in the eyes of the law.

Hopefully as we speak a crew is setting up to clean this mess up.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

None of the crowdsourcing sites "police" anything.

If enough complaints are made they investigate, and may refund those who ask for it.

Which brings up, what is the timing of the payout?

The victim/perps may not actually have received the money yet?

I doubt anybody's going to do the cleanup on credit


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Well it looks like this couple has "failed upward". They sunk their twenty foot something Columbia sailboat and have now been given a 36 foot Choey Lee. But, the good news is at least their old boat will finally be removed from the waters. Couple whose dream boat sank gets a bigger, better boat for a buck | tbo.com


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

lol

You know folks...I think we may have been going about this boat buying thing all wrong.


----------



## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

_But it was when the couple made several edits to the campaign last week as the wreckage sat there that accusations flew. First they removed a sentence saying the funds were "solely to get the boat out of the water" and added one saying they'd use any extra money to buy a new boat and continue the dream. *Later they took out all references to salvaging the Lagniappe and wrote, "The first thing we (need) is a new boat to continue our adventure."*

Screen shots of those edits were posted in sailing forums and a Madeira Beach fishing club's Facebook group and sent to the Times. Commenters called the whole thing a scam. When Nikki Walsh posted a link to a new Facebook page that would document the couple's continued adventures, it was so overrun with negative comments that she had to delete it, she said.

*A day after GoFundMe told the Times it was investigating the edits to see if they violated the company's terms of service, the campaign reverted back to an earlier version reading, "the first thing we are doing is salvaging the Lagniappe."*

"It was a misunderstanding. We only changed the GoFundMe because we passed the $10,000 we needed, and people kept sending us money," Broadwell said. "We wanted them to know what it was going to. We didn't want people to think that we still needed more money for the salvage. *But rumors spread. All the sudden we had people asking us for refunds, and GoFundMe fraud protection calling us, saying they needed receipts, which we're sending them."*

Amanda Parker, a spokeswoman for the Army Corps of Engineers, said Tuesday that divers determined the wreckage was not impeding navigation in the boating channel, but *added that Moore's salvage was expected to take about five weeks.*_

_*$$$$$$$$$$$$$$*_


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

The had the money X weeks ago but waited for the wreck to break up and be harder and more costly to salvage? Then after they made a bad situation worse they were looking for a bargain fix and held out even longer to get things going. I live here and you can get a wreck removed from 3 1/2 feet of water the next day or so which is basically when they had the required funds to do so.

Even now that they got a basically free boat they still held off for a half price deal on the salvage. Huh?

Even the funding web site smelled a rat here so what does that say? Glad to see that they do have a Fraud Protection Group there.

Who is that user here with the bad keel boats? Should he just put his Catalina back in the water and head out to Johns Pass too? Then he could open a GoSpongeMe page and have everyone else pay to get him a new boat instead of paying to do the repairs himself.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

SeaStar58 said:


> Who is that user here with the bad keel boats? Should he just put his Catalina back in the water and head out to Johns Pass too? Then he could open a GoSpongeMe page and have everyone else pay to get him a new boat instead of paying to do the repairs himself.


This only works if he sets out with a nubile female and a cute dog. Bonus dollars are awarded if the female is shown in a bikini.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

amwbox said:


> lol
> 
> You know folks...I think we may have been going about this boat buying thing all wrong.


I wouldn't be at all jealous of them. When people are willing to give away a boat, there's usually a reason. Any $1 boat is almost certainly worth less than what you paid for it. Even a boat like they got, with "good bones," will quickly gobble up their $11,000 windfall, especially since 1) it sat unused for 10 years and 2) these guys have absolutely no idea what they are doing. I suspect that the USCG will be hearing about them again, though the rest of us may not because they have exhausted their 15 minutes of fame.


----------



## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Here's an update for all:

Couple whose dream boat sank gets a bigger, better boat for a buck | tbo.com

This comes from another Sailnet thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/news-...ive-now-sunken-sailboat-gets-new-boat-st.html

Looks like all of us who were thinking dark thoughts about these two were wrong. Good luck to them.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

mstern said:


> Here's an update for all:
> 
> Couple whose dream boat sank gets a bigger, better boat for a buck | tbo.com
> 
> ...


Not sure I get the dark thoughts comment

There were many parts to this

Comming in an inlet for the first time at night with no real experience or preparation. A suspect inlet at that

Grounding the boat which I sure was terrifying to them

Not carrying insurance to deal with the environmental impact therefore letting the boat sit there till they could beg for money to have it removed I call irresponsible

The whole GoFundMe when they claim they are minimalists when in fact they are really high tech manipulators living off of others using a high tech site ( not exactly what a minimalist really does)

Minimalists are self survivors who live off available resourcses not beggars.

Revisionist way of looking like they have been compliant when they were forced by others to clean up their mess, give back money taken on a false pretense. Sorry I don't buy their excuses

They had plenty of tine to rectify this with being forced

I guess the whole spiel of being minimalists just doesn't ring true with me . I have friends that are andvthey are self sufficient .

Seems these guys learned they don't have to work for what they want and have proved that a sucker is born every minute and just have to figure the angle to get their money from others. Certainly not minimalist philosophy.

Do my question is since you believe them and feel sorry for them, have you donated to their GoFundMe ?


----------



## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Just when you think this Millennial "GoFundMe' attitude can't get any more entitled along comes this guy:

"GLOUCESTER COUNTY, N.J. (AP) - A New Jersey man who got drunk in West Virginia and mistakenly ordered a $1,635 Uber ride to his home state says he's seeking donations to help foot the bill.

Kenny Bachman, who lives in Gloucester County, drunkenly ordered the ride believing it would taking him back to where he was staying near West Virginia University. He fell asleep in the car and later awoke two hours into the 300 mile journey, having no idea where he was going initially.

The trip was made more expensive because Bachman gave the driver money for tolls and ordered an UberXL, which can hold up to six passengers."

https://apnews.com/acf551ef0e7c4838...low&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP_Oddities


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> ...Seems these guys learned they don't have to work for what they want and have proved that a sucker is born every minute and just have to figure the angle to get their money from others...


I agree with your sentiment, but your conclusion may prove to be correct in the opposite way that it currently appears.

#1) Their work is just beginning, and will be far bigger than they ever thought.

#2) You are right, a sucker _is_ born every minute, but in this case the suckers may be them. Maybe it is a really great boat and this doctor was just being generous. But as you know, the vast majority of owners who give away their boats are doing it to rid themselves of a hidden problem that makes the boat worthless (or worse than worthless). The fact that this boat suffered neglect for 10 years is not a good sign. Which takes us back to #1.

Remember, these articles are being written by non-sailors. It makes a real nice headline (click bait) to say "Couple ... gets a bigger, better boat for a buck." But as sailors, we know how unlikely this is, and that even if true, these guys likely will quickly waste their newfound fortune before the boat (or crew) is ready for the kind of venture that they think they want.


----------



## mstern (May 26, 2002)

chef2sail said:


> Not sure I get the dark thoughts comment
> 
> Do my question is since you believe them and feel sorry for them, have you donated to their GoFundMe ?


The "dark thoughts" I was referring to are the theories that once this couple realized they were making out like bandits on the GoFundMe site, they changed their mission from clearing the wreck to getting a new boat. I suppose one could think they backtracked once those changes were pointed out and caused a kerfuffle, but I choose to believe their explanation.

And no, I don't feel sorry for them and didn't contribute (and won't be contributing) to their GoFundMe. They made some mistakes that wound up very badly for them, but I don't feel the need to help them achieve their dreams. If there is anything that I feel badly about, it's that they were probably unnecessarily vilified on the interweb. I hope they make the most of their second chance.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

mstern said:


> Here's an update for all:
> 
> Couple whose dream boat sank gets a bigger, better boat for a buck | tbo.com
> 
> ...


Oh, these two were primed and ready to skip out on their responsibility and buy a new boat. Only after repeated complaints to GoFundMe, and with threats from GFM to freeze their campaign, did they finally do the right thing. GFM contacted them and cautioned them about their campaign statement edits, and warned them against fraudulent behavior.

They've done the right thing, but only after considerable pressure.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ajax_MD said:


> Oh, these two were primed and ready to skip out on their responsibility and buy a new boat. Only after repeated complaints to GoFundMe, and with threats from GFM to freeze their campaign, did they finally do the right thing. GFM contacted them and cautioned them about their campaign statement edits, and warned them against fraudulent behavior.
> 
> They've done the right thing, but only after considerable pressure.


Exactly🤘🦅🌪


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

They will probably take up jobs working in FL for a year (or so) to get their new boat cruise-able.
Just a guess.

They might repeat the above several times in different locations

Hoping it works out for them.


----------



## tomjv (Aug 7, 2018)

You can't have a "dream" at age 24. You have one at 54, maybe . . .
At 24, you're just dumb and poor. Get a job.
TomJV



davidpm said:


> They sold everything and bought a boat to sail the world. It sank on day two.[/url]
> 
> The part I don't understand is the keel ripping off.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

I stopped following this some time ago however folks locally have been and have mentioned that there have been some new incidents as they have sailed off in their "Leaky Teaky" with the rotten decks and such so it may not be that long before their back in the news again however it may be from another country so hopefully they won't be using my tax dollars up.


----------



## nwsaildude (May 20, 2012)

I know a guy that sold his boat for $1.00 - had been neglected for some time with a lot of green on it and rotted canvas. Part of the deal was the new owner was to restore it, always afraid to ask how the restore went, He needed to get out of the moorage cost. The hull was sound, had an outboard. He bought a different boat and now lives aboard, was not able to afford both a boat and apartment rent. On a tight budget.

About 25+ years ago I gave a 1,200 sq ft condo to a college, great unit, but the market was soft and it was in a building that was small so the homeowner dues were always tight, I just wanted to get the payments off my balance sheet as I was moving to a different city. So sometimes good stuff goes at a low cost. And I had 35% equity in it.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

tomjv said:


> You can't have a "dream" at age 24. You have one at 54, maybe . . .
> At 24, you're just dumb and poor. Get a job.
> TomJV


I see you're new. Welcome to Sailnet.

I share your skepticism over this particular couple. But as someone who would like to encourage more participation here from 24 year olds, I take offense at your condescending attitude toward them. They are our future, and are at the perfect age to "dream" of where they want to head with their lives. Some are more responsible than others, but painting them all with the same brush stroke is no different than racism or sexism.

Somehow I get the feeling that your age is closer to 54 than it is to 24.


----------



## cutofhisjib (Aug 10, 2018)

I believer there is a happy place between respect and fear of the unknown.


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

tomjv said:


> You can't have a "dream" at age 24. You have one at 54, maybe . . .
> At 24, you're just dumb and poor. Get a job.
> TomJV


I think it is the other way around.

24 is the time to dream as you probably have a lot of future ahead of you.

If you are still dreaming at 54 you likely have missed the boat, so to speak.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> I see you're new. Welcome to Sailnet.
> 
> I share your skepticism over this particular couple. But as someone who would like to encourage more participation here from 24 year olds, I take offense at your condescending attitude toward them. They are our future, and are at the perfect age to "dream" of where they want to head with their lives. Some are more responsible than others, but painting them all with the same brush stroke is no different than racism or sexism.
> 
> Somehow I get the feeling that your age is closer to 54 than it is to 24.


I'd prefer to defend a young couple worth defending rather than those two.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> I'd prefer to defend a young couple worth defending rather than those two.


I agree.

I prefer that we not condemn an entire generation because of these two.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

sailpower said:


> I think it is the other way around.
> 
> 24 is the time to dream as you probably have a lot of future ahead of you.
> 
> If you are still dreaming at 54 you likely have missed the boat, so to speak.


Wrong ... no obie one are you, as you missed the boat

54 year old may still dream but it is steeped in realism

24 year old May dream also

I wonder how old Edison, Einstein, Lincoln, Ghandi, Livingston, Cuseau, Jefferson, Currie, Goddall, Salk, etc were? Did they miss the boat? I think not


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Wrong ... no obie one are you, as you missed the boat
> 
> 54 year old may still dream but it is steeped in realism
> 
> ...


Edison, et al weren't sitting around dreaming about what it would be like if they invented something.

What do you suppose is the % of 54 year olds with 10 year "plans" who actually buy a sailboat never mind go cruising?


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Wrong ... no obie one are you, as you missed the boat
> 
> 54 year old may still dream but it is steeped in realism
> 
> ...


We are talking about boats here not inventors or world leaders.

Regarding boats, If you define dreaming as the opposite of doing then sure, the older you get the more likely it is that a dream will remain just a dream. Personally, I'm not a big fan of self delusion. I prefer reality.

When I was younger my dream was to get into sailing. I did it and have owned 4 sailboats, lived aboard and managed to do some offshore trips.

Another way to put this regarding sailing is that dreaming is still achievable when one is younger. As one ages the physical demands of sailing make it harder to do. Certainly older people sail but most of them don't start at 70.

Why do you have an issue with this?


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Some people have it all figured out....

Well past the 54 mark...still dreaming...

This is stupid.


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> Some people have it all figured out....
> 
> Well past the 54 mark...still dreaming...
> 
> This is stupid.


If you are in the Bahamas on a boat then you are doing not dreaming.

My comments are about buying a boat and going sailing not life in general.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

sailpower said:


> We are talking about boats here not inventors or world leaders.
> 
> Regarding boats, If you define dreaming as the opposite of doing then sure, the older you get the more likely it is that a dream will remain just a dream. Personally, I'm not a big fan of self delusion. I prefer reality.
> 
> ...


Because I disagree with you. Simple as that.

You make unsubstantiated blanket statements you have no empirical data. They can neither be proven nor disproven.

Like who really cares who is more likely to dream about jumping in a sailboat . What does it prove even if you could prove that.

Like Takefive said statements which differentiate between ideas by age are just another form of putting groups against each other and looking for a segregation point.

Age has nothing to do with people dreaming of adventures


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Because I disagree with you. Simple as that.
> 
> You make unsubstantiated blanket statements you have no empirical data. They can neither be proven nor disproven.
> 
> ...


Good grief!

What nonsensical pabulum you are serving up. Differentiate? Groups? Segregation? Ideas? Blah? Blah? Blah?

Yes, age has nothing to do with dreaming for the sake of dreaming so sure, if you need some alone time in your head, go for it. Whatever floats your boat.

But, sorry to have to break it to you, age has everything to do with whether or not one can realistically expect to achieve dreams which require physicality. Sorry if that's not fair but I personally have nothing to do with the aging process.

FWIW I was responding specifically to a posters comment which had nothing to do with you. His/her comment was disparaging and I was commenting because of that. You decided to take it personally for some reason and now you are attacking me. As a result of your attacks I'm feeling marginalized, segregated and differentiated against. Oh wait, I'm not 12 living in a fantasy world where feelings are never hurt, there are never limitations and please, can't we all just get along? So, never mind. LOL

Also FWIW I am 71 so I have some first hand experience with what I am talking about.

Now please, go back to your regularly scheduled dreaming. Enjoy.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> Some people have it all figured out....
> 
> Well past the 54 mark...still dreaming...
> 
> This is stupid.


Yes it is. I am well past 54 too, still dreaming

Gary is well past 54 still dreaming and living his dream

Some people just give up. That's too bad. Without dreams I would be angry too.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TO bring it back to the original topic, These two obviously have a dream of some kind.

Hopefully they figure out how to achieve it without sponging off others .


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Yes it is. I am well past 54 too, still dreaming
> 
> Gary is well past 54 still dreaming and living his dream
> 
> Some people just give up. That's too bad. Without dreams I would be angry too.


Do you have to work at being this clueless or is it just who you are?

Gary has a boat and has sailed the heck out of it.

You claim to have a boat also so neither of you is dreaming about buying a boat and sailing it which is what I am talking about here. Nothing else. If you know anyone who is smart have them read my posts and explain that to you.

Also, you can take your passive aggressive "angry" and stick it. (wait, does that make me angry)? I am quite happy with what I have done to date. One of those things has been to fulfill my dream of owning sailboats, living aboard and enjoying sailing including some offshore sailing to Bermuda and the VI. I am the opposite of angry and quite content that I was able to make my sailing dreams come true. The thing with sailing dreams is like most dreams I expect, that it is extremely satisfying when they become reality. Otherwise they remain fantasies.

One of the advantages of being rational is accepting circumstances as they come without pretending that they do not exist. We all adapt as we go through the stages of life and move on to the next one. Well, maybe not you.

I am going to sign off now before I become helplessly, hopelessly, emotionally triggered by your non inclusive and hateful attacks. I may need a safe space and some play dough. That's what you do, right?


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sailpower said:


> But, sorry to have to break it to you, age has everything to do with whether or not one can realistically expect to achieve dreams which require physicality.
> 
> Now please, go back to your regularly scheduled dreaming. Enjoy.


Wow, who made you the arbiter of who is allowed to dream and who is allowed to achieve.


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

boatpoker said:


> Wow, who made you the arbiter of who is allowed to dream and who is allowed to achieve.


Good golly, another one.

Go read my first post on the subject.

It was in response to a disparaging comment re 24 year olds.

Chef decided to pile on and it has been downhill ever since.


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

The post in question said that 24 yo's don't have the right to be dreaming. He/she went on to say that one can't dream until at least 54.

My point is that if one is still dreaming about buying a boat and sailing at 54 as one was at 24 it likely isn't going to happen.

Is your experience different?


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sailpower said:


> Is your experience different?


Your experience is irrelevant to everyone but you, as mine is to everyone but me. It takes great hubris to make the kind of claims you make and insist that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

Thought you quite this thread


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

sailpower said:


> The post in question said that 24 yo's don't have the right to be dreaming. He/she went on to say that one can't dream until at least 54.
> 
> My point is that if one is still dreaming about buying a boat and sailing at 54 as one was at 24 it likely isn't going to happen.
> 
> Is your experience different?


As I said in a previous post, I think it is a poor idea to disparage any demographic group as a whole. Whether it's 24 year olds (which tomjv took a pot shot at), 54 year olds (which you disparaged), women, racial minorities, immigrants, etc.

I suggest that you cool off and stop trying to explain what was a poorly thought out position.

FWIW, I know people who bought their first boats in their 50s.


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

boatpoker said:


> Your experience is irrelevant to everyone but you, as mine is to everyone but me. It takes great hubris to make the kind of claims you make and insist that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid.
> 
> Thought you quite this thread


Quite = Quit, right?

I thought Chef and I had run out of things to say and then you showed up all indignant and judgemental.

This is the internet and people can just make stuff up and then pile on which is what you are doing.

I never said anyone was dumb or stupid. Feel free to quote where I did. LOL

In my first post in this topic, #265, I was responding to this "You can't have a "dream" at age 24. You have one at 54, maybe . . .
At 24, you're just dumb and poor. Get a job.
TomJV"

Notice that it was tom who said that 24 yo's were dumb. I took issue with it. You made no comment and are criticizing my comment so you are good to go with his statement?

Then in post #271 registered user said

"Some people have it all figured out....

Well past the 54 mark...still dreaming...

This is stupid."

BTW Chef gave that post a like.

You didn't comment there so you are good with that also?

At any rate it wasn't me who used the S word.

Now later I did use the word clueless when I got a bit frustrated with Chef continuing to misstate what I wrote but clueless has an entirely different meaning than dumb or stupid.

I understand that you are some kind of surveyor and it is in that context that I asked about your experience as in, what % of your clients are buying their first boats and learning to sail them at, say, 60+?

So, on to hubris, would that be not reading the entirety of what someone has written but criticizing them for what you wished they wrote?


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

sailpower said:


> The post in question said that 24 yo's don't have the right to be dreaming. He/she went on to say that one can't dream until at least 54.
> 
> My point is that if one is still dreaming about buying a boat and sailing at 54 as one was at 24 it likely isn't going to happen.
> 
> Is your experience different?


Is it necessary to become personal........you at 71 as you stated, would think you'd be more at peace with accomplishing all you claim and wouldn't find it necessary to fire out at people. You post like an angry man. Try and keep it civil. No one is really listening to your railing at others

I won't engage with you anymore. You are invisible to me now.

Oh .....BTW ......Don't try and pit Gary against me. We know each other.


----------



## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> I agree.
> 
> I prefer that we not condemn an entire generation because of these two.


I wholeheartedly agree.

It is very gratifying to be at the sailing center during summer camps where hundreds of polite, exuberant, eager to learn young children and young adults join us old timey ones to learn about boats, sailing, mechanics, etc. When they get a boat they will do so after some time spent dreaming and learning about how to safely follow those dreams.

After a mistake is made that damages one of the centers boats many come to the boat shop afterwards to apologize along with see what is involved in repairing what they broke and volunteer to help provide unskilled labor along with learn in the process.

The (at the time this all began) local to me couple in question here unfortunately was like watching a train wreck in progress. They lived here delivering boats for a boat yard for about a year, had their boat up on the hard much of that time to do hull/keel repairs which apparently were not done very well and had plenty of opportunity to learn the local waters they planned to sail. One does wonder how many folks at the boat yard they worked at told them the $1,500 Columbia they bought to sail around the world was a hairsbreadth away from being a landfill boat. They don't represent the majority of young folks we deal with every day.


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Is it necessary to become personal........you at 71 as you stated, would think you'd be more at peace with accomplishing all you claim and wouldn't find it necessary to fire out at people. You post like an angry man. Try and keep it civil. No one is really listening to your railing at others
> 
> I won't engage with you anymore. You are invisible to me now.
> 
> Oh .....BTW ......Don't try and pit Gary against me. We know each other.


You took from what I wrote that I was trying to turn Gary against you? Seriously? OK, I am going to go ahead and use the word; that is a stunningly stupid thing to say. I have a lot of respect for Gary from what I have read here. He is a doer. He is not hanging out on the internet dreaming about pretending to be a sailboat buyer. He has been there and done that which I stated. Why would you possibly take issue with that?

Again, it's OK, I am in no way angry. I am having a lot of fun pretending to be a social justice warrior like you. Guess I should use a /sarc?

BTW I am not railing at others or firing out at people. I am responding to critical comments posted to me. Yours was the first and it was negative, personal even. The jury is still out on civil? Was that really necessary? Were you railing against me? /sarc (hope this helps) LOL

Yes, run along. It is becoming tedious.

Get back to strongly posting your opinions that only you can do but, remember, no railing. LOL


----------

