# Calling JeffH - weatherhelm



## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

JeffH (and others),

Quite a while ago you gave me some sage advice on mainsail trim to reduce weather helm. I found your descriptions extremely helpful and would like to have you chime in once again if possible. I’ve beat up on this subject pretty good on another forum but still value your perspective.

Cutter rig, steel hull 
Displacement 40,000#
Full keel, barn door rudder
LOD 44’
LWL 37‘
LOA 49’
Draft 6-1/2’
Beam 13-1/2’
Slack bilges
Shrouds are attached to the hull at the toe rail

The Yankee is slightly overlapping and of very heavy cloth. It hangs like a drape under 7knots but by 12 I need to reef it significantly.

The other day I was on a beam reach with the main and stay sail flying, I was making about 4 knots in 15 knots with confused 2 to 3 foot seas, multiple wave sets. 

At this point the helm is light, the boat balanced. I want some more speed so I roll out some Yankee. How much? About 1/2 the wraps or maybe 30% of the sail area. The boat picks up a good turn of speed to 6+ BUT I now have about 10° of weatherhelm and 10°-15° of heel. It kinda feels like the sail is driving the bow down and heeling the boat.

Last year I got caught in a sudden 30 knot gust with all sails up and it pinned the boat down, I released the main and she stayed down until I pulled the headsail in. Not a good thing. At the time I didn’t have the headsail trimmed well, but I’ve cleaned my act up on that front significantly. I’m pretty sure of my headsail trim now. 

A few days later I exchanged the Yankee for this weird sail that came with the boat. I’ve never flown this sail before. The luff is about 8’ shy of full length, so I set it low and put a pendant high to keep the Profurl roller at the top. The tack is waaaay up there. I have figured out a way to sheet this thing inside the shrouds fairly well, jury rig but it’s adequate. 

I haven’t yet had much chance to play with this sail but I can tell it is a very different experience from the Yankee. I’m in Jolly Harbor, Antigua and we have had a long stretch of robust and gusty winds making fooling around in any consistent wind conditions a challenge but I can tell this. 

Flying the weird headsail, staysail and main she points far higher. With just the headsail and staysail in about 15k broad reach I’m getting some lee helm. With 25 knots and all sails it is well over canvassed. I think it’s close to balanced at 15 knots with headsail, staysail and main but need to fool around more in some consistent winds to be more sure of myself.

At this point I’m fairly confident that the Yankee just isn’t working as it should. Today I talked to a fellow who has a rig that looks much like mine, his head stays angle out about as much as mine do, less vertical than most boats. His experience with the Yankee is very much different than mine.

My question is that with this information are you able to hazard a guess about what might be going on with my Yankee? Is it possible that it’s partially rolled shape is so bad as to cause these problems? Or that it is bagged out and causing heel? 

I’m not anxious to put the old headsail back on but will if necessary to sort this out. Its very heavy, I can pick it up if well bagged. It probably weighs at least 80 pounds. 

I’m heading south to Guadeloupe Friday and then later down to Dominique.

My many thanks,

Howard


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Do you have a picture showing your boat's rig, or even better, one under sail? That might help with responses.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> JeffH (and others),
> 
> The Yankee is slightly overlapping and of very heavy cloth. It hangs like a drape under 7knots but by 12 I need to reef it significantly.
> 
> ...


Why are you only making 4 knots in 15 (apparent or true)???? This seems too slow for your LWL.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Let’s see what I can find.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Well I only had the staysail and main flying and I’m 40,000# and the sea state wasn’t great.

But yes, I’m trying to improve my speed without having to tolerate excessive weather helm.

BTW I’ve only ever sail in 2 boats, and I still own both of them. And I don’t have this problem on my other boat (33’er).


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Your descriptions are a bit confusing. You say you have weather helm, yet you say it feels like the bow is being "pulled down" which sounds like lee helm. 

Typically not having enough sail area forward will manifest itself as weather helm, and having too much sail area forward will result in lee helm. It doesnt make sense to me that the boat is balanced with main and stay sail, and then when you pull out the Genoa you suddenly have weather helm.

Weather helm can also be caused by excessive heel angles. How much heel is excessive really depends on hull design but 10-15 degrees isn't too crazy. Flatter is usually better. 10 degrees of weather helm is also not too bad, but more than ideal.

You have referenced the weight of the sail cloth a few times. That weight is not really the issue other than not flying well in light wind.

The shape of the sail is important. A partially furled sail will never have good shape because the foil shape is cut into the whole sail, and having it partially furled ruins that shape. Also, if the sail is old and worn the sail is likely much too full and the draft too far aft. The result would be that much more of the power generated by the sail would be to leeward rather than forward causing the boat to heel more. 

It sounds like you are flying the staysail and a partially furled genoa at the same time? Perhaps you could try furling the staysail and unfurling the Genoa completely. That should move the center of effort of your sailplan forward. That may balance the helm better. Don't be shy with the halyard tension. If the sail is as old as it sounds the draft is probably pretty far aft and luff tension will help pull it forward.

There may also be rig tuning issues at play as well. If your mast is raked too far aft it will cause weather helm, and forward rake will cause lee helm.

Next time you are out sailing, take lots of picture of your sails, preferably close hauled, and from the bottom of the sail looking up. That will help assess the shape of your sails and sail trim.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

> Your descriptions are a bit confusing. You say you have weather helm, yet you say it feels like the bow is being "pulled down" which sounds like lee helm


Being pulled down into the water, depressed. NOT being pulled downwind.



> It doesnt make sense to me that the boat is balanced with main and stay sail, and then when you pull out the Genoa you suddenly have weather helm.


I completely agree. Yet that is what it is.



> 10 degrees of weather helm is also not too bad, but more than ideal.


Unfortunately it's more than the AP can deal with. I've sailed this boat quite a few miles and dealt with the weather helm and agree with your comments above. And I have a larger over lapping sail that works better, but is far too big for the Caribbean conditions where we frequently see 20+ knots. In fact I bought the bigger sail because I was dissatisfied with the Yankee. It is a lightly used sail of lighter cloth I bought used. Even though not cut for this boat it works better. But it's not for here.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Shiva has ab LWL of 29'+...

look at the instrument display... speed thru water is 6.6 (increasing).... SOG is 7.1 (some fair current of .5kts. 

True wind speed is about 10 kts and apparent wind is about 14 kts. We're sailing close hauled... it looks like small waves (expected at 10kts of wind speed.) Ideal sailing conditions.

Heel is under 15°.... helm is balanced... slight weather helm

What would your boat do in these conditions?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Maybe start with dbl reef main and feed out the jib until she says enough.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

RegisteredUser said:


> Maybe start with dbl reef main and feed out the jib until she says enough.


"She" being the wife of the boat?

The more jib the more heel. The main is NOT the problem.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SanderO said:


> Shiva has ab LWL of 29'+...
> 
> look at the instrument display... speed thru water is 6.6 (increasing).... SOG is 7.1 (some fair current of .5kts.
> 
> ...


My boat with the YANKEE would be about as below.

Much slower, probably can't carry full Genoa. I would have the stay sail up. Hard heel.

With the weird (smaller) Genoa I believe I would be making more way with less heel. But I've so little experience with that sail it's a bit of a guess. With 15 knots of true she had some heel and some weather helm but was doing 6 knots. It was a brief experience. I might have done better if I had some time to fool with it, I could likely have eased the main a bit.

Frankly I haven't seen those conditions you report above in 4 years. In December we had a week at almost no wind, the rest of the time it's been 15-25.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> My boat with the YANKEE would be about as below.
> 
> Much slower, probably can't carry full Genoa. I would have the stay sail up. Hard heel.
> 
> ...


Shiva is a fractional rig... deep fin and skegged rudder. 15 true upwind it's approaching reefing time. But even at those wind speeds... I don't let the boat heel more than 15°... max 20°. More heel you make more leeway... not good. Waves make a big difference of course.... above 2 feet high and you bet slowed by waves.

My guess is your "problem" is from the large genny and smallish main... mast head rig. Try a smaller sail set on the inner forestay.... that should perhaps help with your weather helm (turning into weather).

You don't want to "drag" your rudder.... which you do when you have a lot of weather helm,

I don't know much about masthead rigs... someone else can help you balance your sail plan, reduce weather helm and get more speeed.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Sander,

As noted above I have changed to a smaller headsail and am awaiting conditions (tomorrow) when I can check it out better.

We have been running 15-25 with 6’ to 9’ seas for a good bit.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

hpeer said:


> The more jib the more heel. The main is NOT the problem.


Don't be too quick to discount the possibility that the mainsail might be the problem.

A heavy helm isn't caused by just a problem with the jib. It's caused by an imbalance between the jib and mainsail. The pivot point on a sailboat is the center of lateral resistance (CLR). The jib creates pressure forward of the CLR, and the mainsail creates pressure aft of the CLR. By balancing those pressures, you create a balanced helm, assuming the rig is properly tuned. Too much pressure forward of the CLR causes the boat to want to bear off the wind, and too much pressure aft causes it to want to come up to windward. In either case, you have to use the rudder to correct it, and that not only makes you arm-weary, it also costs you boat speed. I should add that excess pressure on a barn door rudder can cause the rudder to fail. I've seen it happen.

On a masthead-rigged boat, as the wind increases, I generally depower the mainsail first by flattening it's shape and easing the traveler, and using all the adjustments that the boat has to depower the mainsail. If it increases further, then I tuck in a reef. At the same time I generally depower the jib by flattening it's shape a bit and adjusting the genoa car. If the wind increases further, then I reduce the size of the jib.

Excessive heeling can result from either too much jib or too much mainsail, but the mainsail is usually the more likely culprit than the jib for excessive heeling.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Sailor man,

I’m sailing along on a broad reach with main and staysail @ 4knots. Balanced helm not much heel. I roll out a bit of Genoa and get 15°-20° of heel and 10° of weatherhelm.

How does the main do that?


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I'd guess you have too much pressure aft of the CLR. That suggests you have too much mainsail area, or your mainsail is over-trimmed, or both. Try flattening the mainsail, easing the traveler, and, at some point you have to think about tucking in a reef.

edit: I see you were on a broad reach. That changes things a bit, but the principles are the same. On a broad reach, the pressure on a big mainsail tends to push the transom to leeward, but you don't notice it much because the keel and rudder resist it. If you roll out a big jib and over-trim it, the over-trimmed jib tends to pull the bow to windward. An over-trimmed jib also causes weather helm. The solution is to balance the pressures on the main and jib. In this case, I'd suggest you ease the jibsheet a bit. You might also need to ease the mainsail as well. Balance them.

As the wind increases, you'll have to reef the mainsail to achieve a balance.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> Sander,
> 
> As noted above I have changed to a smaller headsail and am awaiting conditions (tomorrow) when I can check it out better.
> 
> We have been running 15-25 with 6' to 9' seas for a good bit.


Those are tough conditions on the wind... see how the smaller head sail does.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Every boat is an individual . As you learn yours experiment with different combos.

On Haleakula , a mastheader , we first drop the centerboard. Usually that straightens her back to less than 15% heel until we get to 22 knots. Our boar works best to next furl the jib to 110 and flatten the main. Next is reef mr main. 

Gusty or large waves can change this formula. Experiment with the techniques everyone has said as your boat has its own idiosyncracys .


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

hpeer said:


> Sailor man,
> 
> I'm sailing along on a broad reach with main and staysail @ 4knots. Balanced helm not much heel. I roll out a bit of Genoa and get 15°-20° of heel and 10° of weatherhelm.
> 
> How does the main do that?


What we are trying to tell you is that helm balance is a combination of factors and you need to look at the whole picture. You can't ignore the mainsail. Indeed, if you are experiencing too much weather helm it is the main that needs to be depowered first. Flatten the main as much as you can and drop the traveller, and if that doesn't do it, put more twist in it.

Also, if you are already flying a staysail your CE is already a bit aft, but the imbalance is not going to manifest so much if you are under powered. Once you pull out the Genoa you are adding a lot more power. If you furl the staysail and use just the genoa and main that CE should move forward.

It is a bit strange that you are reporting excessive weather helm on a broad reach. How is the weather helm when you harden up to a close reach or close hauled?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

> It is a bit strange that you are reporting excessive weather helm on a broad reach. How is the weather helm when you harden up to a close reach or close hauled?


It will increase. So say I'm in a broad reach, under AP, the wind picks up a bit, she will turn to weather and if I don't catch it quick will round up.

If that answers your question.

It's not that I'm reporting excessive weather helm on a broad reach. It what happens when I put out a small bit of job, the weatherhelm increases. Everything I read says putting out some job should decrease the weatherhelm.

And believe me, I've let the main right off without significant effect. It's. NOT the main. And it's not a small main.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Could it be that excessive heel is causing your weather helm? Heeling can change a boats CLR and it might be more pronounced with a relatively lower aspect keel and rudder. Hard to say without being there if the angle of heel is enough to be the culprit.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

ARCB,

Yes no doubt excessive heel is a major problem. It’s just why would a small amount of jib cause so much heel? 

My thought is there is something wrong with the sail cut that tends to make it occur. 

But I don’t know enough about sail cuts and what a bad sail cut feels like.

Heading to Guadeloupe tomorrow, should have more to report on how the weird sail works once I get some internet connection again.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

You probably have tried both of these, but you could try less jib sheet tension. Might also be able to play with sheeting angles try playing with the jib cars?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I’ve tried all kinds of things over the years. Frankly I bagged the Yankee for years after I got the bigger Genoa and didn’t break it out again until we hit the Bahamas. Now I’ve been fighting with it the last 4 seasons. I just kind of accepted that that was the way things were. But I’ve never felt good about the Yankee.

Then last year we had a couple of really bad incidents with the sail and I have been working to get things right. Part of which was doing better with main trim. And I am playing with a new AP set up where I really need to get em weatherhelm under control. So I have been working to understand what is going on. And the idea that the mostly furled jib way up there in the 5’ bow sprit is pushing me over so far over and making the helm worse seems to run counter to everything I read. 

I have found a couple of threads here in CF where others have noted similar problems, but they did not report their resolution and they are very old threads.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Might be the partially furled jib is giving you a wonky sheeting angle, resulting in a boat that feels like it has an over sheeted jib that is heeling you over instead of propelling you forward.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Well it FELT like it was over sheeted but it surely was not. 

If anything it was kinda loose, but actually I tried playing around with it a but without great success. I thought it looked kinda baggy. Can a headsail be over sheeted and still baggy? 

It’s not that the sail is bad just in that one instance, it never works well. I was just trying to provide a description of one instance that I paid a lot of attention and where the problem was a bit more clear. Something I could describe accurately.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I am thinking sheeting angle could be at least part of your problem. It is possible that excessive heel could have a greater negative effect on weather helm than the beneficial effects of moving CE forward

I found an article that might give you some ideas. Read down to paragraph 4 on jib car positioning. If you can't get your cars far enough in a happy place, might be able to jury rig something temporary with some snatch blocks or something, at least as long as the wind is so strong.

https://www.teamwindcraft.com/basics-of-trimming-your-headsail/


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

ARCB,

OK and thanks. The article is interesting but is really geared towards a much more modern rig. Adjusting the rig by changing tension is a pretty complicated task for me. I have 14 wires keeping that mast in place, including split backstage and not counting runners. 

The bit about adjusting sheet lead position, as you noted, is more relevant. 

What I would really like is an article on how sails are cut and what happens if they are cut wrong or stretched out.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I think rhere is a plethora of that ro be found.
Some is more geared toward getting the nth degree out of modern rigs, but tons of basic info from many years

Solve rhis prob and maybe many other concerns..go away
Be in love again...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Howard,

Not being there, it is hard to say specifically what is happening. At best this is a lot of speculation and 'best guesses'. 

I will start with the basic broad generalities. As I often have said, boat act as a system and often what seems like a phenomena of one component actually involving a lot of design and built elements. I suspect that is the case here. 

So for example, when you talk about weather helm, most folks think of it is as an imbalance between the center of all of the lateral forces generated by the sails (CE) vs the center of all of the lateral forces generated by the hull, rudder and keel(CLR). Historically that was the short hand rule-of-thumb method of thinking of weather helm, but it ignores a very large number of other forces that contribute to weather helm. 

For example, on all points of sail, except running, the sails generate large amounts of side force relative to forward drive forces.That side force is of course resisted by the keel and rudder. 

In the case of a keel hung or skeg hung rudder, the pivot is at the leading edge of the rudder and the side force is pushing the rudder to windward creating one component of the forces of weather helm. If the sails are changed from a properly cut sail, i.e. that generates proportionately little side force, to a sail which generates a lot of side force, that increased side force on the rudder will result in an increase in greater weather helm, sometimes dramatically.

But starting with more basic components, normally sail plans are designed to be balanced with a 100% foretriangle and a triangular mainsail. This actually works because the largest forces on a properly cut sail occurs in forward 15% to 20% of the sail. In large part this is the reason that weather helm does not increase as a boat falls off and the sails are eased. 

Anything aft of the first 15-20% mainly generates side force and minimal to no forward force. In the worst case, with a blown out sail or otherwise poorly shaped (too rounded shape aft) the trailing edge of the sail can actually generate a force pulling aft (drag). 

So what does that mean? As a sail gets a bigger percentage overlap and/or more rounded, it generates much higher side force relative to forward forces. That side force means greater heeling, more side force on the rudder, and leeway. 

And this is where it will get more system generated issues. In the case of the boat in question, this is a design that has a hull form and weight distribution that results in a proportionately huge amount of drag relative to the overall stability of the boat. 

If we focus on the hull drag for a moment, to overcome that drag requires a very large amount of drive, and with that large amount of drive comes with proportionately large side force and rig generated drag. 

As a result of this high drag to stability ratio, boats like these heel disproportionately large amounts compared to boats with lower drag to stability. 

All boats increase weather helm forces with heel. This is true because with heel the center of drive moves to leeward of the center of drag. This results in a rotational moment (simply force x separation of the forces). And the bigger the drag, the bigger the drive, and/or the bigger the heel angle, the bigger the weather helm moment generated.

And this is where the cut of the sail comes in. Genoas cut for coastal cruising tend to be cut full to perform at the lower end of the wind range. As sails age the roundness (fullness) gets deeper and moves aft on the sail. This happens because the leech of the sail have the highest stresses and long term stretch is approximately proportionate to the amount of stresses. Per above that means proportionately much higher side force and lower drive with age.

It sounds like the sails that you are using are powered up due to cut and stretch. Furling a sail pushes all of the fullness of the entire sail into the much smaller sail furled sail requiring the sail to be furlered to a much smaller than ideal for the wind conditions if this was simply a smaller sail.

I am writing this on my phone and so will post this as multiple edits to avoid losing content. More coming.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff,

Thanks. I had not thought of that element, those specific forces on the rudder.

Two observations.

RUDDER 
It is HEAVY. It’s a tradition unbalanced “barn door” with cable steering. The wheel sprocket already has the minimum number of teeth, 6. I can’t make it smaller. The wheel itself is smallish, maybe 36” diameter and limited by the seats which are the passageway aft. And I am under 2 turns lock to lock. In short I have no lack of feedback, the helm is heavy. I know of nothing I can do to lighten the helm short of converting to hydraulic. This of course give me the AP fits. 

I had a 9 hour sail from Antigua to Guadeloupe using the “weird” (much lighter and smaller) Genoa. That Genoa is probably about the same size as the partially furled Yankee I reported in the OP. Conditions were not an exact match but similar. The weird sail also gave me additional weatherhelm on a broad reach, my sense was that is was less. Overall the weird sail, sheeted inside the stays, set much easier, was not as fussy and resulted in a more enjoyable sail. I was able to balance the helm by completely letting off the main with one reef. Overall the much smaller Genoa performed better than the Yankee.

Finally: the keel leading edge is 24” wide and flat, think landing barge. I loose up keel design and surprisingly found that this is the recommended shape for a long keel with a cut away forefoot. There was a long description of the dynamics, but it did not touch on the rudder.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

So to continue, as breeze shifts from moderate to heavier winds, the typical headsail strategies might include increased halyard tension and moving the lead aft a little opening the head of the sail a little. Depending on how the geometry of the sail is shaped, as the jib furls the clew proportionately rises tensioning the leech of the sail rather than easing it. 

You don't have an option to tension your forestay other than in a minor way by lowering the traveler and apply huge amounts of mainsheet tension and lots of outhaul. 

Then there is the keel. Ideally in fore and aft horizontal section, your keel should be one of the NACA sections. The thickness of the section is a tough call on a long keel. If the thickness is a conventional proportion, the section will be too thick and the frontal area becomes a problem. 

The converse is that reduced too much in thickness, the keel will be a more prone to stalling, and will also tend to produce turbulence further forward on the keel reducing rudder efficiency at higher side loads and heel angles.

The other variable is that heavier boats for their length, have deeper canoe bodies and so a relatively small portion of the underbody actually acts as a keel.

Jeff


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff, 

Thanks for the continued input. The keel is what it is, nothing I can do about it. I think you understand the issues with it well, very wide, blunt, and with slack bilges. 

As to the sheet lead it’s already as far back as I can go. At least for the Yankee which is sheeted outside the shrouds.

I don’t have a traveller. Except that I have recently made up a jury rig traveler. It’s something I’m experimenting with. It’s a piece of tensioned dyneema running between 2 hard points with a 4:1 block pulling each way. It is something else I’m fooling with to provide more sail control. It seems to be working just fine. But it also complicates matters as its one more variable. I have not previously mentioned this because I think it’s irrelevant. I mention it now because you brought up the traveller issue, I’m not keen to put huge amounts of stress in it at the moment. 

But my principal question is, how abnormal is it for moderate amounts of Genoa to cause weatherhelm? 

I ask because I keep seeing it stated that the Genoa should either reduce weatherhelm or create lee helm? 

Please keep the following in mind about this boats design. Alan Pape was no slouch. As a youth he won an Olympic gold in sailing and went on to be a designer and co-owner of a boat yard. He designed the Saga and Ebbtide series boats which have a high reputation. This design was originally a ketch but was relofted by Pape as a cutter for the original owner.

FYI most likely I’ll eventually use this as a learning experience to purchase a new headsail. Right now I don’t have the vocabulary or knowledge to effectively communicate with the sailmaker. On the plus side the sailmaker I will use also owns a similar Pape design as his personal sailboat.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

It seems to me that Jeff is telling you much the same things the rest of us have, albeit a bit more eloquently.

There is not much that can be done about the hull and rudder of your boat. It is what it is, although you state that the boat was originally designed as a ketch, and then converted to a cutter rig by the previous owner. That does ring some alarm bells to me. I am no expert in such things, but I would certainly question what was done in that conversion, and how much engineering was done.

In terms of the sails, it really sounds like your sails are blown out, and are creating more heel than forward power, although it is really hard for anyone to say definitively with just a verbal description. This is a conversation you should have with your sailmaker. Don't worry about waiting until you have the knowledge to tell him what you need. He is the expert. Let him tell you what you need!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

> you state that the boat was originally designed as a ketch, and then converted to a cutter rig by the previous owner.


No, you previous bills were designed as ketch's. This hull was designed as a cutter. The NA, Alan Pape modified the design from ketch to cutter. I presume that means he moved the mast back and did some other stuff. Only then was the boat built. I have the original plans, but they are very difficult to read.

It may well be that the sail is blown out, of it may be some thing else. I don't have the experience to know. For all I know this may be normal behavior for this type of boat.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

hpeer said:


> No, you previous bills were designed as ketch's. This hull was designed as a cutter. The NA, Alan Pape modified the design from ketch to cutter. I presume that means he moved the mast back and did some other stuff. Only then was the boat built. I have the original plans, but they are very difficult to read.
> 
> It may well be that the sail is blown out, of it may be some thing else. I don't have the experience to know. For all I know this may be normal behavior for this type of boat.


Oh I see, in that case it is safe to assume the model was done correctly.

You say you know a sailmaker that has a similar boat? Sounds like he is the one you need to talk to.

If uncontrollable weather helm is an inherent characteristic of the design then my recommendation would be to get rid of it and find a better design! More likely it is correctable with sails and tuning.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Have you tried Broad Reaching without the mainsail? If so, to what effect ?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

tempest said:


> Have you tried Broad Reaching without the mainsail? If so, to what effect ?


With the weird small Genoa and the staysail in light air, up to 10 knots or so. Light helm. Not a lot of speed, but not dead. The Yankee won't set well in those conditions, too heavy.

Here in the Caribbean I normally sail with one reef in the main. I think I will try going with 2 reefs although it feels a bit silly having 2 reefs under 25 knots. But I've been silly before so I'll try.

I had a third reef fitted to the main last year.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> With the weird small Genoa and the staysail in light air, up to 10 knots or so. Light helm. Not a lot of speed, but not dead. The Yankee won't set well in those conditions, too heavy.
> 
> Here in the Caribbean I normally sail with one reef in the main. I think I will try going with 2 reefs although it feels a bit silly having 2 reefs under 25 knots. But I've been silly before so I'll try.
> 
> I had a third reef fitted to the main last year.


Why not try just the headsails over 10 downwind.

Also, I think taking a second reef in the main is worth a try. Some boats, mine for instance, would take a 2nd reef early, without any loss of speed. Sailing flatter with less weather helm


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I will try it when I have opportunity.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> No, you previous bills were designed as ketch's. This hull was designed as a cutter. The NA, Alan Pape modified the design from ketch to cutter. I presume that means he moved the mast back and did some other stuff. Only then was the boat built. I have the original plans, but they are very difficult to read.
> 
> It may well be that the sail is blown out, of it may be some thing else. I don't have the experience to know. For all I know this may be normal behavior for this type of boat.


Try to figure out what has changed. If the boat's helm had a different sail under the same conditions and sail plan.... something has changed. Those changes should tell you what's up.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SanderO,

Nothing has changed, this particular sail has never worked well. 

Here is my root question:

What would cause a Genoa to create weather helm as opposed to lee helm. Or to put it another way, what would case a Genoa to create excessive heel? 

I understand well enough his heel create weather helm, I understand well enough how a main creates weather helm. I continually read that one FIX for weather helm is more Genoa or the o move the Genoa forward by adding a bow sprit. I already have a bow sprit. And adding even a significantly reefed Genoa creates heel and weather helm.

Is it the sail? Or is it something intrinsic to the boat?

And I’m not saying it has excessive helm. The helm has a lot of effort because of the geometry. It’s annoying because it makes it hard to get the AP to work. 

If it’s something can fix through trim then fine.
Maybe I need a new head sail, likely.
And maybe having an electrical ram drive the Aries will work. I’ve had good luck with the RM tiller pilots except they break in a regular basis. 

Other options would be to convert to hydraulic steering OR change the Aries for an auxiliary rudder vane. Or just live with it. 

I’m trying to have a deeper understanding of the issue so I don’t just throw money and effort at this. 

But the first question remains: is it normal for a Genoa to create weather helm? And how do I isolate the problem to the sail or the hull?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Like all of this there is a lot to unpack. But back to a point from above, in a well cut sail, the actual center of effort of the sail is roughly 15-20% aft of the leading edge of the sail. In a poorly shaped sail or one that is blown out the sail is deeper and the deepest point on the sail can be around 50% or more of the sail aft of the leading edge of the sail. That moves the center of effort back several feet on the sail. On a cutter the area of the foretriangle is often equal to the area of the mainsail. So if the center of effort of the foretriangle moves aft by several feet, the center of effort of the entire sailplan moves aft something like half of that distance. 

If you think that often weather helm is removed from a rig by moving the masthead a few inches forward, having the center of effort move aft several feet would of course cause a lot of weather helm.

Making matters worse, a blown out sail is much fuller and stretchier, so it would tend to heel the boat over more than a flatter sail. That simply adds to the weather helm due to heeling.

The idea that a bigger Genoa moves the center of effort forward is a basic misunderstanding that people make. If you visualize a 100% jib with it's center of effort 15-20% of the chord aft of the leading edge, and you then visualize a 150% Genoa with it's center of effort 15-20% of it's chord, the center of effort is moving aft.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff,

Again thanks. That sort of squares with my experience that the smaller headsail created less heel/helm than the Genoa, even if the Genoa was curled to about the same size. 

But I am still left with the small Genoa making heel/helm. 

Let me see if I can draw up something intelligent to look at. Might take a bit.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff,

Please see attached sketch. Obviously not to scale but not terrible. 

I have gotten into the habit of always rising the staysail simply because I always end up furling the Yankee. 

I will try sailing like a sloop with the small Genoa and main alone to see how that works. That’s not a lot of sail area. I’ll also try with the small Genoa and the stay sail and a deeply reefed main. 

However the main point remains, that even the small Genoa is creating heel/helm. I’m starting to think that is just the character of this boat and made worse by the heavy helm. I will survive.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

In the drawing, the weird genoa almost looks upside down. If the drawing is close, the centre of effort on that sail does seem high which could make you heel more.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Jeff_H said:


> The idea that a bigger Genoa moves the center of effort forward is a basic misunderstanding that people make. If you visualize a 100% jib with it's center of effort 15-20% of the chord aft of the leading edge, and you then visualize a 150% Genoa with it's center of effort 15-20% of it's chord, the center of effort is moving aft.


It depends on which center of effort you're talking about - the center of effort of the sail or the center of effort of the sailplan.

You're right that the center of effort of a 150% genoa sail is farther aft than the CE of a 100% jib, but there's a difference between the CE of the sail and the CE of the sailplan. Raising a bigger jib moves the CE of the sailplan forward, and that increases an existing imbalance.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Looking at the picture, and making some assumptions about the flying shape of the sail, that 'wierd sail' looks like a conventional working jib on a cutter. Traditionally the sheet lead on that sail is adjusted by moving the sail up and down on the stay with a block and tackle on the clew and the halyard on the head. These were typically very flat cut sails made for heavier conditions. 

My guess is that in part, your lead is too far forward or you are flying the sail too high, both of which would curl the leech and round the shape of the sail. Once you get the lead right the problem of weather helm may lessen.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Arcb said:


> In the drawing, the weird genoa almost looks upside down. If the drawing is close, the centre of effort on that sail does seem high which could make you heel more.


Well I said it was weird. And I had the same thought. Yet it is set correctly. The head and foot are easily distinguished once you look at it.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Sailormon6 said:


> It depends on which center of effort you're talking about - the center of effort of the sail or the center of effort of the sailplan.
> 
> You're right that the center of effort of a 150% genoa sail is farther aft than the CE of a 100% jib, but there's a difference between the CE of the sail and the CE of the sailplan. Raising a bigger jib moves the CE of the sailplan forward, and that increases an existing imbalance.


You are correct in saying that there is a difference between the center of effort of the jib and the center of effort of the entire sailplan. But if the center of effort of the jib moves aft, the center of effort of the sailplan moves aft; just that the CE of the sailplan doesn't move aft as much as the CE of the jib.

I agree with ArcB that if the proportional length of the foot and leech are correct in your sketch, it may be that the sail is being flown upside down. Normally in almost any case I can think of, the leech would be longer than the foot.

Jeff


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

That weird genoa, looks more like a blast reacher or something. The foot is cut so high.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff said,



> My guess is that in part, your lead is too far forward or you are flying the sail too high, both of which would curl the leech and round the shape of the sail. Once you get the lead right the problem of weather helm may lessen.


Very interesting observations. But would not work well with a Profurl arrangement. Unless I climbed up the mast and added one of those things to keep the halyard from wrapping. I can't say it's a flat sail or not. It is much lighter sailcloth than the Yankee, but about the same as the big overlapper I have.

I am struggling with how to sheet this thing. I've set the sail as low as possible, and I still think the best sheet angle I come up with is too high.

IN YOUR OPINION would this sail be normal sheeting inside or outside the shrouds??

I have not tried sheeting outside because it just looks like the angles would be all wrong.

If it's intended to be sheeted inside then I can't find any logical sheet lead attachment points. I have tried a few jury rigs and will continue to experiment. But I'm not seeing the necessary deck hardware.

Perhaps another clue is that the sail is hard to pull out, to unfurl. It partly unfurls normally but then binds, yet the curler is free. I think this is because the sheet lead is too far forward and am working on some solution. I'm getting kind of stumped on that point. I have car track on my toe rails but I've always used it all the way back and it's worthless for inside sheeting.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I am thinking outside and pretty far aft.

Here is a pic of a sail with a similar cut. Bigger boat than yours, but can't think of a reason that would matter.

The lead on the sheet is nearly perpindicular to the luff.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Henry!

How long have you hand this boat? 
Was there a time in the past when the boat sailed without the weather helm you complain about now?

WHAT HAS CHANGED?

It sounds like you woke up in some time warp on a boat you have own for many years and now notice that something is different.

Was this a SUDDEN change?

Was it a gradual change?

Over time things DO change:
super imposed weight and where that weight is in the boat. This may / will impact trim.

sails go soft, lose shape and their performance changes

Have you changed rigging tension?

Have you moved leads or changed sheeting angle?

How do know there is weather helm? ...from the rudder angle? ... how are you determining the rudder angle? Is your auto pilot not able to prevent the boat from rounding up? 

Are you sailing too slow for the conditions? How did you determine that?

How foul is your bottom?

What is your baseline??????????

You post sounds like some martians descended and fiddled with your boat while you were asleep and woke up and noticed nothing changed but the weather helm.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

That jib (staysail) is not designed to be used as a lone *headsail* (not lone sail) in anything less than 35 or 40 knots of wind. With the main properly reefed and that sail, your boat should be balanced and sail fairly well to windward in heavy weather. That is your heavy weather jib for a circumnavigation. Was the previous owner French?

I am in a similar position, having made my stays'l to be used like yours. Ours is a bit (not as much as yours) heavier than I'd like for *our* purposes, and cut too high. I should have designed a stays'l that runs aft under the lower spreaders. Then we could increase our sail area dramatically without changing out the Yankee jib for a genoa in light air or only as much as needed when our Yankee (high cut jib on the headstay) is doused.
Would that there was a member here who was a sailmaker (before the computers designed the sails) that did not mind answering a few questions about designing sails.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Regarding your sheeting angles, it should be fairly apparent if you have your fairlead too far forward as the leech would probably have a pronounced "hook" in it, and no twist at all. If you can't tell how much twist you have, you may want to add telltales to the luff of the sail. They are a great indicator of how the sail is flying. If your lead is too far forward the upper telltales will not be streaming, indicating that the top of the sail is stalled. Your illustration shows an extremely high clew, so I would think your lead position would be very far aft. I suggest you use a snatch block with a quick release shackle and experiment with positions on the toerail further aft than your track goes.

You could also try moving the headsail down on the forestay by adding a strop between the head and the furler swivel. That way the swivel can be at the top to avoid halyard wrap.

Regarding the helm. How are you measuring your weatherhelm? Do you have a rudder angle indicator on your AP? Also, you say the boat naturally has a very heavy helm. Is it possible that your AP is not powerful enough and that is why it cant prevent the boat from rounding up? 

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SanderO said:


> Henry!
> 
> How long have you hand this boat?
> Was there a time in the past when the boat sailed without the weather helm you complain about now?
> ...


The Yankee has NEVER set well. I changed it for a bigger Genoa when in the Chesapeake region and switched back down here and have been suffering through with it. I am now trying to do better.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Capta,



> I should have designed a stays'l that runs aft under the lower spreaders. Then we could increase our sail area dramatically without changing out the Yankee jib for a genoa in light air or only as much as needed when our Yankee (high cut jib on the headstay) is doused.


My staysail is on a boom and works just fine.

I'm wondering if it's possible to make a Yankee, smaller and lighter than my current one, bigger than the small Genoa, that can be flown as you suggest.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Arcb said:


> I am thinking outside and pretty far aft.
> 
> Here is a pic of a sail with a similar cut. Bigger boat than yours, but can't think of a reason that would matter.
> 
> The lead on the sheet is nearly perpindicular to the luff.


That pic was helpful. I've now got a block made off to a cleat further aft. Time will tell how this works. I can try it both inside and outside.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SchockT said:


> Regarding your sheeting angles, it should be fairly apparent if you have your fairlead too far forward as the leech would probably have a pronounced "hook" in it, and no twist at all. If you can't tell how much twist you have, you may want to add telltales to the luff of the sail. They are a great indicator of how the sail is flying. If your lead is too far forward the upper telltales will not be streaming, indicating that the top of the sail is stalled. Your illustration shows an extremely high clew, so I would think your lead position would be very far aft. I suggest you use a snatch block with a quick release shackle and experiment with positions on the toerail further aft than your track goes.
> 
> You could also try moving the headsail down on the forestay by adding a strop between the head and the furler swivel. That way the swivel can be at the top to avoid halyard wrap.
> 
> ...


No toe rails.

Sail is as low as it will go, I have a pendant on the top.

AP is a PyPilot running a COT motor. Lots of power but PyPilot doesn't like weatherhelm. I get the impression it only makes instantaneous changes can't recognize being "off course." And for some reason the PyPilot is crashing my OpenCPN, so there is that.

One problem at a time.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Henry,

I am still confused.

Have you never had this problem... with those sails set the way you have been doing recently? Have you tried something new? Or is something old giving you weather helm?

My understanding is that you've had this boat and know the rig and how to set the sails and have been doing it for years.... sail down to the Caribe and get a bad case of weather helm.

+++++

All I can say I am thrilled to have a fractional sloop with way few "combinations" to sort out.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SanderO,

I have always had problems with this sail. I didn’t use it for years because I was using a larger light wind sail. I switched back to the Yankee down here 3 years ago. And it has sucked for 3 years. I’m now tryin to deal with a solution. 

What brought it to the forefront is trying to get the AP to work better. 

And what pushed the AP was the CPT was having trouble reliably keeping a reading because of the steel boat thing.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

what about using the older sail and see how that works... and get the heavier one cut to the same dimensions as the lighter one.

Steel boat and AP sounds like mixing cats and dogs.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Your signs and symptoms are classic for a cutter rigged boat that is SKIDDING OFF to leewards. Usually has nothing to do with the causes of weather helm. If skidding, your rig tension is usually entirely out of whack or was set up by someone who only sails sloops. Cutters are an entirely different rigged animal.

Next time out in 10-12kts, go onto a hard beat to weather ... THEN carefully look at wake turbulence coming off the RUDDER. If the turbulance wake is coming off of the stern at more than a noticeable few teeny degrees from the centerline, the boat is healing aggressively, the boat cant point worth crap, it gets easily blown over in gusts, the leeches of both head sails are cupped up to weather and the luff and headstay wire on the headsail is visually operating from a great distance to leeward from the boats center line ....... youre most likely SKIDDING off to leewards ..... the skid causes side pressure on a rudder and easily mimics so called weather helm. 

Rx: set the forestay (the first stay in 'front' of the mast) temporarily at SLACK, set the headstay tension to about 16-18% on a tension gage (on the backstay)..... dont worry about the 16-18% as when you begin to tension the forestay, the strain in the head stay will significantly and automatically REDUCE. Slowly and incrementally increase the tension of the forestay to no more than 4-5% tension and go sailing (with all sails flying). Youll want the backstay on an uncomplicated rig to be ~12-15% 
When setting the tension on the forestay, and with the headstay at near 15-16%, run the tension up to about 10-12% and make a 'mark' (tape) on the threads of the turnbuckle. This mark is for sailing 'bareheaded' and with NO headsail flying, just a staysail .... reset the tension 'to the mark' by hand.
** 4% forestay tension for sailing with main and foresail and 'yankee' etc.
** 10-12% forestay tension for sailing deep reefed and **NO** topsail flying. 

FWIW - if youre sure there is not lingering skidding and the rudder wake is near perfect and there is still adverse helm pressure ......
..... on a windless day raise the mainsail at the dock and observe the angle that the mast makes with the TOP of the boom. On your boat this angle should be about 87° for dead-zero weather helm. If what you have 'is' weather helm, you'll probably also note that the boom aft end is hanging LOWER than the gooseneck and the mast-boom angle is HUGE ...MUCH GREATER than 87-90°.
The correction when sailing/beating is to INCREASE mainsail halyard tension until the helm goes 'dead fish neutral' then back off on the halyard an inch or so. Make a mark on the mast an halyard so you can repeat the halyard strain without thinking. 
If you have difficulty cranking on sufficient halyard strain to fully stretch out the bolt rope to its "as-designed" length .... take the sail to a sailmaker and either have the boltrope eased (cheap) or replaced (more expensive)
Mainsails with shortened or preloaded boltropes ('so-called racing cuts) usually need their boltropes 'eased' about every 8-12 months when daily sailing in the tropics or aggressively sailing anywhere else.


Be aware that most riggers have no clear idea of how to rig tune and tension a cutter rig .... the problem is the interplay of tensions as the different sized sails incrementally and unequally load up the rigging..... this is especially true for a cutter rig that carries only one backstay.

Lemme me know how this works out .... Ill check back in about 6 months.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

RichH,

Thanks for the detailed post. You make some interesting observations and fairly accurately describe how the boat feels with the Yankee.


> the boat is healing aggressively, the boat cant point worth crap, it gets easily blown over in gusts


 With little experience so far it feels different with the small headsail. Still looking at that.

I have actually gone through most of what you recommended within the past year.

Last November I adjusted the head stay and fore stay tensions as you suggested. I had picked that up elsewhere. And I've paid more attention to the headsail adjustment. The mast does not have excessive rake or lean aft, that is easy to see in a calm anchorage, almost all other boats have more "rake" than we do. The boom to mast angle is less than 90°. I have marked the main (and each reef) halyard so that there are no wrinkles.

The thing I have not done is to look at the rudder wake, not sure I can even see that. But will look.

The boat never had a traveller, so I January I have made one up along traditional lines. It is working adequately.

All of this may have made some incremental improvement in the Yankee but it still is an issue.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

How are you determining the tension of the stays?

I use a Selden rig tuning guide which can be found here:

Rigging instructions & sailmakers guide : Seldén Mast AB

SLICK on HINTS and ADVICE to find the instructions.

I have a Selden rig but I presume the principles and techniques would apply to any rig.

All you really need is a meter stick!

You do have to tune dockside AND undersail.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SanderO,

I carry a Loos gauge. 

But also being steel there is no significant hull flex, the shrouds don’t significantly change under sail. 

One of the issues in these discussions is that this boat is so fundamentally different than modern boats. It can be hard for me to get relevant information. And most folks carry assumptions that may not apply. 

It would be great for us to swap sails on our respective boats and kill a few beers in the aftermath. 

ONE of my problems (I’m a “go now guy”) is I have only ever sailed on 2 boats, staring at 57. Zero training. And I still own both boats. So I have a very narrow range of experience, even though I’ve traveled a fair bit. I still consider myself a novice in many ways. Which does not keep me from pontificating.

Still learning.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> SanderO,
> 
> I carry a Loos gauge.
> 
> ...


I urge you to read the Selden guide. Hulls are not expected to flex from tuning a rig.

Are you lee shrouds slack or looser when you sail on the wind in say 15kts apparent?
Is your mast staying completely "in column"?

I have only one boat and it has a deck stepped fractional rig with swept back spreaders... It's pretty simple to understand. You seem to have yourself a more complex puzzle there.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Before moving the discussion back onto the original topic, I would like to get a little pedantic about the names of the parts of a cutter. Historically the forward most stay, the one that runs from the head of the mast to the furthest forward part of the rig is called the headstay. The stay that is aft of that which typically (on a boat that has a bowsprit) runs from the stem of the boat to some point part way up the mast is referred to as the forestay. The Jib, AKA Jib topsail, Genoa and/or Yankee are typically flown from the headstay and the forestaysail or stays'l is flown from the forestay. I prefer to use the historic terms.

Now back to the program in progress, and the question on rigging the sheet inboard or outboard of the shrouds, I am not sure how your jib sheets are intended to be rigged since that is dependent on how the boat was designed.

On my 1939 Stadel Cutter, (see picture below) The jib topsail sheets were run outboard of the shrouds to a block on the toerail. But Indian was comparatively narrow and so the sheeting angle was pretty much where it needed to be when going upwind. Your boat appears to be much beamer and so outboard may be a too wide a lead. Then again, Indian's hull form would be appear to be more weatherly than your boat's hull form and so she could take advantage of the tighter sheeting angle.

Indian under sail tacking https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

As far as adjusting the lead, while Indian had her hanked-on jib tops'l tack controlled vertically on a tackle that ran aft and was cleated off at the sampson post, if you have a furler you can still set up a way to adjust the lead by setting the heoght of the tack by rigging a pennant with a truckers hitch that is run through the tack shackle on the furler drum and cow-hitched at the cringle of the sail.

Jeff


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff,

Just to say that back in shorthand for easy reference:

Head stay: Jib, AKA Jib topsail, Genoa and/or Yankee

Forestry: forestaysail or stays'l

Now for the next part, about adjusting the sail height.

I have a Profurl that has that gizmo at the top which keeps the top swivel from rotating and causing the halyard from wrapping the extrusion. Nor do I have the loop on the front of the mast just below the sheave that changes the halyard lead and keeps the halyard from wrapping. (Why the boat does not have that, as the Profurl was a late addition, is just one of the various rigging mysteries I have. Another is why there was no place to fasten off the furling line.) 

None the less I think I could accomplish what you are describing by putting a block on the top Profurl swivel and running a line from the sail head, through the block and back to the tack. Then tension the tack as described. That will keep the top swivel against the stop while allowing an adjustable top pendant. If need be I will attempt that. Right now I don’t have on-board any single piece of line of sufficient length to accomplish that. 

At this point I have the sail set as low as possible, and I need to find an adequate hard point to make that angle work. I have 4 docking cleats per side, I’ve now fixed my turning block to the next to furthest aft. I will see how that works. After that I need longer sheets. 

When possible I will try both inboard and outboard sheeting under different conditions. 

I think you answered my question adequately, it’s not totally stupid to consider inside sheeting. So I will experiment.

It will be a few days or longer before I get some sail time in. I’ll report back.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Just to say that back in shorthand for easy reference:
> 
> ...


I sometimes sail with an extra sheet on the head sail... I can use it to re lead and then remove the other sheet.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

SanderO said:


> I sometimes sail with an extra sheet on the head sail... I can use it to re lead and then remove the other sheet.


Or just run the lazy sheet to the new lead position and tack onto it. If you don't want to tack run the lazy sheet on the same side, cast off the old and take up the new.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SandierO and ShockT,

Thank you both for those suggestions.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Another historical word.

Gripe, to

A sailing boat gripes when she shows a strong tendency to turn up into the wind and requires great tiller force to restrain her. The noun Gripe from which it derives means the forefoot or the forward extremity of the keel, but it is now obsolescent.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

this wiki pretty much describes weather helm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_helm

Excessive heeling is one of the main causes... a boat should not heel more than 15°... not only does the boat make excessive leeway...but you are likely dragging the rudder... and losing speed to windward (VMG).

Flatten your boat... and that might mean less canvas... de-powering the main.

Boat below is heeled 15° and making hull speed... slight weather helm.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

SanderO said:


> this wiki pretty much describes weather helm
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_helm
> 
> ...


With all due respect, I think that is an overstatement. There are boats which actually develop neutral or even lee helm with heel angle such as modern designs where the axis of the immersed hull actually shifts at an angle to the hull with the forward end of the immersed hull pointing to windward, while the axis of the keel is such that it balances the forces of weather helm produced because of the heel angle.

Similarly, the statement that a boat should not heel more than 15 degs is too broad a generality since the ideal heel angle limit varies with the design of the boat. Round bottom boats like yours or HPeer's tolerate much larger heel angles than most lighter weight race boats. CCA era boats are often at their best and are reasonably balanced at heel angles around 30 deg. My boat does not increase weather helm very much with heel until close to 30-35 degrees of heel (roughly 25-30 deg shown in picture below, the center spoke of the wheel is just to the right of my left hand and so the rudder is probably only turned 2-3 degrees) and while I try to stay below a 20 deg. heel to minimize leeway, weather helm does not get excessive until around 45 degrees of heel. (not that I recommend sailing at 45 degrees of heel for any length of time.)

6336 Synergy from astern after the mark rounding in a building breeze by jeff_h


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> With all due respect, I think that is an overstatement. There are boats which actually develop neutral or even lee helm with heel angle such as modern designs where the axis of the immersed hull actually shifts at an angle to the hull with the forward end of the immersed hull pointing to windward, while the axis of the keel is such that it balances the forces of weather helm produced because of the heel angle.
> 
> Similarly, the statement that a boat should not heel more than 15 degs is too broad a generality since the ideal heel angle limit varies with the design of the boat. Round bottom boats like yours or HPeer's tolerate much larger heel angles than most


Sure... I am not a naval architect... and my knowledge/experience base are the few designs I've sailed and 99.9% of them were my boat.

Further I don't know boo about ketches and cutters and hard chine steel boats...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Jeff_H said:


> With all due respect, I think that is an overstatement. There are boats which actually develop neutral or even lee helm with heel angle such as modern designs where the axis of the immersed hull actually shifts at an angle to the hull with the forward end of the immersed hull pointing to windward, while the axis of the keel is such that it balances the forces of weather helm produced because of the heel angle.
> 
> Similarly, the statement that a boat should not heel more than 15 degs is too broad a generality since the ideal heel angle limit varies with the design of the boat. Round bottom boats like yours or HPeer's tolerate much larger heel angles than most





SanderO said:


> Sure... I am not a naval architect... and my knowledge/experience base are the few designs I've sailed and 99.9% of them were my boat.
> 
> Further I don't know boo about ketches and cutters and hard chine steel boats...


I apologize that the first sentence of my post was not exactly what I had wanted to say. What I had wanted to say is, "With all due respect, I think that the Wiki statement is an over-simplification." That will teach me to type a post on my phone.

Jeff


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

This is a follow up with current impressions.

Regarding the working job I am not able to lead the sheets sufficiently far aft to bisect the sails center seam. Even with the sail as low as possible. At some point the sheets restrict the boom when eased. The clew is that high.

None the less the sail feels much better and sets well even outside the shrouds. The boat does not gripe and feels much more under control. It also points higher. But is quite under canvassed at lower wind speeds. Even there it sets better than the heavy Yankee which would not set right with so little wind.

The makeshift traveller is working and makes a difference. It’s much easier now to feel the mains effect on weatherhelm. I still need some more experience but it’s a big improvement. 

I now observe a near linear relationship between weatherhelm, speed and heel.
4 knots, 10° heel and 2-4° helm
5 knots, 15° heel and 5-7° helm, the AP can’t handle this.
6 knots, 20+ heel and 8-10° helm, and the Admiral gets very squeaky. 

Because of the unbalanced barn door rudder and smallish 32” diameter wheel the helm is quite heavy. I’m sure the 40,000# displacement does not help.

I’m now in Portsmouth, Dominique which has a big bay with little fetch. I hope to get out and experiment some more in less sea state.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> This is a follow up with current impressions.
> 
> Regarding the working job I am not able to lead the sheets sufficiently far aft to bisect the sails center seam. Even with the sail as low as possible. At some point the sheets restrict the boom when eased. The clew is that high.
> 
> ...


Good report. 
What AP are you using?

Although Shiva is a completely different boat in almost every aspect... the Alpha3000 below decks AP can handle the boat quite well in almost anything except broad reaches with large quartering seas... she will not hand the waves well and turn to windward... heel way over and the wifey will scream louder than the wind.... so I have to steer... and mostly honoring the waves.
Anything over 15° is really too much heel.... she makes too much leeway (slipping) and does not sail faster... and then begins to drag the rudder... not good. It's a big skeg... the helm is 36" Ø. I don't know the rudder angle... but the helm is usually over a few degrees (10-15) (w/ slight weather helm) when she sails.

She will sail balanced w/o the AP on a close reach in 10k of wind.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SanderO said:


> anything except broad reaches with large quartering seas... she will not hand the waves well and turn to windward... heel way over and the wifey will scream louder than the wind.... so I have to steer... and mostly honoring the waves


Might I suggest you ease off or reef the main more than the conditions call for to overcome this problem? If Shiva is a cutter, it could also help to put up as much sail forward as you can and set the headsail to luff if she starts to broach, but keep the sta's'l sheeted in a tad too tight. You basically want the main to luff first, then the headsail, but not the sta's'l.
Obviously, I haven't sailed your boat, but these settings have eased the tendency of several boats to broach on my runs from Bermuda to the VI when broad reaching.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I’m using a PyPilot driving a CPT motor.

The reason is that I need an AP with a GPS heading. The compass heading in the boat is not usable. I’ve tried various forms of compass; binnacle, handheld, iPhone, PyPilot internal, compass. For some reason it seems worse here deep in the Caribbean.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

From what others say, the CPT is a powerful motor. Is it failing, or is the pypilot drive circuit itself failing at higher current? If the pypilot, a simple H-bridge connected between the pypilot and CPT will solve that.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

capta said:


> Might I suggest you ease off or reef the main more than the conditions call for to overcome this problem? If Shiva is a cutter, it could also help to put up as much sail forward as you can and set the headsail to luff if she starts to broach, but keep the sta's'l sheeted in a tad too tight. You basically want the main to luff first, then the headsail, but not the sta's'l.
> Obviously, I haven't sailed your boat, but these settings have eased the tendency of several boats to broach on my runs from Bermuda to the VI when broad reaching.


Of course this is OT. Shiva is a 7/8 fractional with a main and a smallish head sail... and a deep fin keel.

The reason I might not reef the main in those conditions is that these are usually short coastal sails. If I have these conditions for hrs then I would shorten sail and get the pressure off the helm. Heeling and quartering seas is not a good combi. I have never broached or dipped the boom!


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

colemj said:


> From what others say, the CPT is a powerful motor. Is it failing, or is the pypilot drive circuit itself failing at higher current? If the pypilot, a simple H-bridge connected between the pypilot and CPT will solve that.
> 
> Mark


It's not the CPT, it's surly powerful enough. I've got Sean's controller and it seems to drive the CPT just fine. I don't want to get my arm caught in the wheel with it turning, that's for damn sure.

But the way I understand the PyPilot is that it provides corrections in bursts or pulses and in the latest release you can control the length of the burst/pulse. But it is always a 50% duty cycle. 1/2 second in and 1/2 second off or 2 seconds on and 2 seconds off.

With sufficient pressure on the helm in the "off" period the helm swings back and then the "on" period it can not catch up to correct sufficiently. Now if it had a "bias" control.....

Or I may need to use the OpenCPN auto routing but reading up on that gave me a big headache. For example tells me I have to filter the NEMA messages, out and back. Ive no clue on how to do that. I've just now asked Sean for his opinion.

Or at least that's they way it feels to me.

The AP issue has driven me to be more aggressive in "fixing" the weather helm. But really I need to fix it to the extent I can simply to make the boat more manageable and easier to sail.

I've already gained significant improvements, but I'm not there yet.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Disclaimer: I don't have any experience with the CPT or pypilot.

Most drives either use a clutch or gear lash or something similar to prevent them from back driving. Once they are moved to a position, they stay there until moved again, or the clutch or other lock is released.

This allows the AP to use a duty cycle like you described for pypilot - turn the motor, rest until needed again, turn, etc. Generally, once the boat is set and sailing, it doesn't need to move the rudder greatly - only a small amount around a set amount.

Perhaps something is amiss in your CPT drive? Given that people claim the CPT uses little power, I suspect that it is not constantly using power to hold a rudder in position. Or maybe pypilot doesn't have a clutch output?

Hopefully someone here with a CPT will contribute as to how these work. I'm starting to think that there is nothing inherently wrong with the autopilot, but there is something missing, or a mismatch, to how it is supposed to work.

Mark


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Coleman,

That’s very interesting.


I’ve used 2 different CPT’s in their original configuration. I believe neither had the clutch type operation you mention. 

The CPT motor is just a Bosch windshield wiper motor with a right angle drive and a gear. And PyPilot discusses using a windshield wiper motor for this purpose. So I’m pretty sure that’s all it is. But am very willing to be schooled otherwise.

But the mechanism you describe makes sense and would go far in this effort.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> Coleman,
> 
> That's very interesting.
> 
> ...


hmmmm interesting.

I installed an Alpha 3000 AP. It is basically a cylinder with gearing to push and retract a "piston" rod. A smallish motor drives the gears inside the piston rod assembly.The rod is connected to the end of an "arm" bolted to the rudder post. Mine is set up such that an extended rod rotates the rudder post clockwise. Piston can be mechanically disengaged with a teleflex cable so there is no drag or friction on the helm. If the AP is electronically on and the piston disengaged... it will move in and out as if steering. The AP is very quiet.., and with my lousy hearing inaudible. The AP steers to a course set with a rotary dial. It has setting for sea state (auto trim) and yaw. Both are variable settings.

I essentially "steer/helm" the boat with the rotary dial.... informed by the plotter (its data) and the heading and course lines... and of course my knowledge of how the sails needs to be trimmed and heel angle. When I tweak trim or course I can see where I have gained or lost speed if there is more or less weather helm and so on. The small dial is much like the 36" Ø helm except it has a much more limited max turn angle. The AP is basically making small course corrections. Tacks can be done but they are not a crisp/sharp as turning the helm hard over. And for all my sailing this is of no consequence. AP can't see waves... and so some wave size and directions can lead to what I call S ing... mostly off the wind. And if it's too much I hand steer.

The boat can at times in strong winds on a beam reach start to round up and the helm is not enough... fast enough or turns enough to hold the course. Have to reef then... or hand steer. Boat is pushing well past 15° of heel.,, and making too much leeway.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

hpeer said:


> Coleman,
> 
> That's very interesting.
> 
> ...


I have no personal experience with these autopilots, but I was curious about them. On their website I found the following passage:

"Will the CPT steer my heavy displacement boat?

The CPT will generally steer heavy displacement boats from two to eight turns lock-to-lock. The CPT has a powerful motor and gearing, and uses the mechanical advantage of the steering wheel & steering system. When sailing you must be willing to trim and balance the vessel, as you would with a windvane, to reduce weather-helm. The most common vessels using the CPT are typically 30'-50' in length with 10-40,000 lb displacement. The CPT develops up to 86 ft-lbs of torque at the wheel which is enough to handle most wheel loads.
In winds or rough conditions the boat must be balanced to reduce weather helm. With too much weather helm the belt will eventually begin to jump in its cogs, an indication its time to reef and trim the boat. Many vessels have the CPT as well as a windvane. A self-steering back-up of some sort is recommended for long distance cruising."

They seem to acknowledge that their product doesn't do well in difficult conditions. Is it possible the drive belt is slipping on your boat when you are experiencing this loss of control with heavy weather helm?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

They are toothed belts. I’ve seen and heard them slip, you know when it’s happening.

That’s not an issue here.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I’ve stumbled over something that I thought I had previously addressed but did not.

I need to take the boat out and do some experimenting and then report back. 

I’m somewhat red faced as it is.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Following RichH’s advice in stay tension I double checked my tensions and found the back stays with every low tension. That is embarrassing because I set the tensions back in November in line with RichH’s recommendations. At least I THOUGHT I did, but in fact I screwed up. I must have read the gage wrong. 

I’ve now upped the tensions to achieve about 14% on the head sail stay. We took the boat out for a spin this morning and it made a difference. The weatherhelm is still a more than I would expect but somewhat less. However, the helm FELT lighter. I can not explain that, it just feels like it has less pressure for a corresponding speed/heel/rudder angle. Of course this is very subjective because there are so many variables in play.

JeffH - I have moved the leads as far aft as possible and they still do not bisect the sails center seam. I found I can go only so far aft because eventually the sheets restrict the boom from easing. 

However nothing I have done has really addressed my initial question which was - why don’t I feel some Lee helm when I deploy the jib? But at least I’m not feeling a ton of weatherhelm. Maybe it’s just that this effect is masked in these wind speeds. I don’t know. The boat, to me, still feels a bit prone to weather helm. 

At this point I have made many changes and the net effect is to make the boat far more pleasurable to sail. I would like to effect more improvement and that may come from additional tweaking and experience. And I still need to experiment with flying the working jib from the higher position. 

The working Jib is a big improvement even if the sheet angles are wrong. It sails better sheeted outside and gives improved upwind performance. And I can fly that sail over a vastly larger wind range. It is pretty small for light airs, but I can fill in with the staysail. I’m pretty sure I’m going to get a new headsail smaller and lighter than the Yankee, but with a full luff and cut so it will sheet properly. It will need a foam luff and/or battens to allow it to be used partially furled.

I am going to get a propper traveller. Almost surely from Gerhauer. The car leads need to be worked out. The new traveller will be several inches longer. My makeshift traveller has been a great improvement. 

Now I just gotta figure out how to pay for this. Today’s stock market is not encouraging.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> I've now upped the tensions to achieve about 14% on the head sail stay. We took the boat out for a spin this morning and it made a difference. The weatherhelm is still a more than I would expect but somewhat less. However, the helm FELT lighter. I can not explain that, it just feels like it has less pressure for a corresponding speed/heel/rudder angle. Of course this is very subjective because there are so many variables in play.


Weather helm would be a heavy helm because you are holding over so it doesn't round up. If the helm is "lighter" you have less weather helm and the boat is more balanced.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SanderO,

I was thinking more along the lines of RichH’s theory that it is side slip causing something that feels like weatherhelm. If it was as you say I would notice the same helm at 20° no matter what. But it seems lighter.

I don’t think there is any concrete way to resolve this.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff_H said:


> I agree with ArcB that if the proportional length of the foot and leech are correct in your sketch, it may be that the sail is being flown upside down. Normally in almost any case I can think of, the leech would be longer than the foot.
> 
> Jeff


I had skipped over this post previously.

As to the sail shape I'm 100% certain I have it up correctly, the makers logo (Lucas) is on the bottom. If I had it up backwards then the logo would be upside down on the top.

The leech and foot are nearly equal in length which makes the clew very high. Frankly if I did reverse the sail it would not matter much at all. The working jib is much more symmetrical than the one you show on the picture of you cutter.

The staysail, which is very well used, was also made by Lucas. So I'm assuming they were both made at the same time and this Working jib was never used all these years.

If I get a calm day I will try to get a picture of the sail flying. Maybe in the am.

If it's up wrong I will admit it and eat a ton of crow.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

The photo.

URL=http://imgbox.com/FG3bOTlz]







[/URL]


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That picture really helps a lot and that sail looks a lot more normal than I expected. In the photo, it appears that the sheet lead is too far aft. If I had to sort that out, I would probably add a telltale about 1/4 way down the luff of the sail from the head and another telltale roughly a 1/4 of the luff length up from the tack of the sail, with both telltales roughly 16" aft of the luff. Then adjust the jib for a beat and slowly head up towards a luff. The jib leads should be adjusted so that the top and bottom telltales luff at roughly the same time. I suspect that the lead will move quite a bit forward from where you have it. 

Jeff


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=127068&thumb=1

This should be a right side up pic.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Tempest,

Thanks for rotating that l. It is correct in the initial format. I tried a couple of times to rotate it and instead of moving 90° it would move 180°.

Never had that problem before.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I have a couple of questions re: that photo.

1.) The boom looks like it's raised quite a bit to clear the Bimini. ( could be an optical delusion? ) are you able to sheet the mainsail in appropriately? 

2.) With all that weight on the stern, she looks like she's sitting bow down on her waterline, curious. Do you have all your gold bullion stored in the Bow ? ;-)


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff_H said:


> That picture really helps a lot and that sail looks a lot more normal than I expected. In the photo, it appears that the sheet lead is too far aft. If I had to sort that out, I would probably add a telltale about 1/4 way down the luff of the sail from the head and another telltale roughly a 1/4 of the luff length up from the tack of the sail, with both telltales roughly 16" aft of the luff. Then adjust the jib for a beat and slowly head up towards a luff. The jib leads should be adjusted so that the top and bottom telltales luff at roughly the same time. I suspect that the lead will move quite a bit forward from where you have it.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff,

Thanks again for hour input.

I'll see if I can scrounge together some telltales. In Dominique now and for a while, maybe quite a while with this virus kicking around. Zero nautical supplies here.

I'm glad you think the lead is too far aft, my tracks start at the back of the gate and run forward like 6' from there. Somehow I had the idea I wanted to match the seam line in the sail.

From your reaction I take it you think the sail "fits" the boat?

Do you still recommend raising and lowering the sail to adjust the lead?

What would you call this sail?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

tempest said:


> I have a couple of questions re: that photo.
> 
> 1.) The boom looks like it's raised quite a bit to clear the Bimini. ( could be an optical delusion? ) are you able to sheet the mainsail in appropriately?
> 
> 2.) With all that weight on the stern, she looks like she's sitting bow down on her waterline, curious. Do you have all your gold bullion stored in the Bow ? ;-)


1 - Yes, with the main trimmed, the halyard pulled up hard to remove any creasing, the topping lift is loose. When I set the main it picks the boom up, not much but up. Then I can tension it down with the main sheet and set the boom Vang.

2 - Yes again. The boat came without the arch, I built it and added it and it is heavy. All that surface area probably doesn't help weatherhelm either. And there IS bullion in the bow, in the form of a 125lb Mantus and a 66lb Spade.

Before the lectures about weight in the extremities begin, I know, I know. However we live on the boat at anchor for about 8 days for every day we sail. As we use it it's quality as a safe and secure HOME are very important. That means lots of renewable power, even though we are pretty frugal. Because we never go into a marina or take a mooring unless forced we are on anchor maybe 150 nights a year. I highly value the security of a good workable anchoring platform and sizable anchors. Lots of times, because of harbor crowding, we are in short scope and sloping sea beds. So I really appreciate the holding power.

As we received the boat the bow pulpit platform was scary wobbly. Shortly after buying her I found a bad rust spot in the bow sprit, it had to be replaced. So I replaced it in kind with 316 SS but added some Wisker sections so that the platform would not wobble. I also moved the anchors forward so that you can lower and raise the anchors without fouling the bob stay, something that invariably occurred previously.

All of that moves weight to the ends. And I did have to move the waterline, I had to raise it in the stern. So if anything she is stern down a bit. But that water line may have been screwed up previously.

We have some pretty good swell running, I suspect that she looks a bit bow down because of the swell. I've actually hit the waterline pretty even now.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Haha....Fear not! You'll never get a lecture from me about how to manage your boat! ;-) After all, you're sitting on your boat in the Tropics and I'm on my fat butt here in Winter in N.J. ;-) i was just curious.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I grew up in Manahawkin, spent my working life in Philadelphia.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

hpeer said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Thanks again for hour input.
> 
> ...


Starting with the telltales since they are the easiest to solve. I typically just use red yarn to make telltale. I either tie a very fat stopper knot. take a stitch through the sail and tie a fat stopper knot on the other side of the sail. Plan 'B' if you don't have a big enough needle to thread the yarn, is that I simply use rigging or electrical tape and tape the yarn to the sail. Either way the yarn should be 6 to 8" long. Lacking yarn, I tape a piece of dead cassette tape to the sail. (That works better than yarn, but does not last all that long) In the absence of either yarn or cassette tape, I have also used lightweight narrow ribbon like is used on helium balloons. In other words, you may need to MacGyver the situation.

From what I can tell in the photo, there does not appear to be anything obviously wrong with the sail. In other words, it fits the boat and looks like it is generally properly cut as well.

As far as adjusting the sail up and down the luff, I suggested that idea on the assumption that you did not have tracks for the jib, or the proper lead did not align with the ends of the track but was close. Assuming that you can get a proper lead that hits on the track, you do not need to raise or lower the sail on the Headstay foil. i.e. you should be able to make all of the adjustments you need on the track.

That sail could be called one of several things, but generally that sail would be called simply the 'working jib', but also might be called a Jib-Tops'l.

As far as trim goes, when a boat is not sitting on her lines, it can alter the position of the center of lateral resistance. Some boats are very sensitive about this, for example fine ended boats like CCA and IOR boats do not tolerate weight the ends very well. But considering the 40,000 lb weight of your boat, and the very full ends that show in your pictures, I seriously doubt that the weight of the anchors and chain even enter into the equation.

Jeff


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff,

I will likely not respond again for a while. We think we are going to try to sit out the virus here in Dominique so it may be a month or two before we leave. We may or may not get out for some day sails. If I pick anchor I may loose my spot where I can get internet. Yikes.

In the meantime I took a couple of measurements.
J 20’ 9”
I 55’ 6”
E 20’ 2” - to end of boom
P 51’ 4”

I don’t know if that is of interest or not. 

And the mast is set back at station 3.5. From cut water back.
The boom extends 4’6” past the bow and 8’3” past the cut water.
37’ waterline. 

Many thanks,


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

This is a much belated update. A short recap, I’m not sure where I left off.

My complaint was of excessive weather helm. Also high helm effort. No simple fix to the high helm effort short of going to hydraulic steering. 

JeffH reminded me of how to properly set the main. I had fallen into some bad habits.

For sailing in the Caribbean I have shifted to a smaller working jib. 

The boat never had a traveller. I made an old style wire traveller using dynema and some handy billies. In Dominica we were able to take the boat out for a day run and she handled much better.

We were in lockdown until mid-June when we left Dominica and sailed back to Beaufort. Libely 13 day passage. Full genoa and staysail wing in wing. We then went into a yard period and came out mid-December. We are now over wintering in Edenton, NC.

At some point my rather rusty mind recalled that on a much earlier trip (about 7 years ago) my main halyard had chaffed. Where I was I was only able to source some 7/16” regular double braid.  I had bought 3/8” StaySet to replace it but that hot stowed and forgotten. What reminded me of tuis was seeing a big say in my forestay even though my halyard was bar tight.

I feel rather silly that I have been running around with the wrong halyards, but that is the simple truth.

Now the halyards have been replaced with 3/8” Stayset. I am looking forward to hetting out sailing in some wind to feel the difference. Hopefully it will be significant.

Above others were talking about mast placement and I have more info on that. The original designs were for a 45’ clipper bow ketch. The owner had the designers redraw the boat as a 44’ cutter with a spoon bow. Going from clipper to spoon reduced length by a foot.

The mizzen was removed and the main mast moved FORWARD by about 12”. I found some megar correspondence on this matter and it was the architects intention. In fact there is material evidence that the move occurred during construction, the comprssion post had been installed as per a ketch but was cut out and moved. The yard, CMC in England, was marketing and building the 45’ ketch so they were probably just building another normal boat and had to adjust to the cutter rig. The correspondence is a bit vague but insinuates a longer bow sprit to balance the larger main.

I have drawings for the 45’ clipper bow ketch but not for my 44’ spoon bow cutter.

The main point being that the boat was not bodged up by the owner making a ketch to cutter conversion but done by the original naval architect.

Hopefully I will get some decent wind sailing this summer, somewhere, to see how all my changes have worked out.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Happy New Year my friend. It is good to see you still around and settled in safely. I am sorry that you are still wrestling with weather helm issues.

But to begin to discuss the weather helm on your boat, I must start out by saying that I am a little perplexed by the description of the designer's recommended changes to the mast position from Ketch to Cutter. Normally, when you design a boat for two rigs; a cutter and a ketch, the main mast on the ketch would be significantly more forward on the boat relative to that of the cutter, The reason for that is that the center of effort on the mizzen is way aft of the center of lateral resistance and of the boat would have a wicked weather helm if the mainmast were not moved way forward on the ketch to offset that.

Conversely, the very definition (traditional definition of what distinguished a cutter from a sloop) is that the mast on a cutter is 50% or more aft on the length of the sail plan (sometimes cited as aft of 50% of the waterline).



















I think that you can see the difference between a sloop (multiple headsail sloop) version and a ketch version here on the Wittholz Departure 35. There was a cutter version that had a bowsprit and it moved the mast even futher aft. (I think that I may have drafted the sloop sail plan)

So In theory the mast should have moved aft, maybe 10%-15% of the waterline length when the design went from a ketch to a cutter. Under no circumstance that I can think of should it have moved forward unless the ketch had a really wicked weather helm that the designer was trying to correct, or the design of the keel on the cutter was altered to allow the mast to move forward.

But all that being said, logical or not, you are still experiencing a lot of weather helm, which adds to the mystery and my befuddlement. After all, a large amount of weather helm would suggest that the mast needed to be further forward still. The only countervailing factor in this is that the tack of the jib moved aft about a foot. But even that would have a tiny impact compared to eliminating the mizzen or moving the main mast forward.

In any event, working from an 'it is what it is position, the only options to reduce the weather helm (without major surgery, is to further reduce mast rake, and to further depower your sails (flatten them and reduce the angle of attack). Certainly adding a traveler and being able to lower the mainsheet lead to leeward, along with applying lots of halyard, outhaul, and vang tension would depower the sail a lot reducing weather helm. If the sail is blown out, short of buying a new sail, adding full length tapered battens would help some as well.

From an analytic standpoint, it would be helpful if next time you go sailing, if you could set your sails as perfectly as you can on a beat, then take a picture from against the windward side of the boom, the center of the length of the boom looking at the head of the sail and doing the same at the center of the foot of the jib doing the same. There may be some clues in those photos.

Also if convenient, it might be helpful to add yards (telltales) on the leech of the sail at each of the battens, They will provide clues if they can be seen in the photos mentioned above.

Other than that....Stay well,
Jeff


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff,

Thanks for the response. It will be some months before sailing again. Too damn cold here in NC.
In the event you are interested I am including a page of correspondence from the designer (Alan Pape) to the owner/builder (Mr Andrews).

Maybe I am interpreting it wrong. But I can clearly see where the mast compression post was (as per ketch designs) and where it is, neaely a foot forward.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That does solve a bit of the mystery. In the letter, Alan Pape says that he moved the 'lead' forward a little. Lead in this case is the relative position of the the center of effort to the center of lateral resistance when calculated statically. The static center of effort is typically drawn further forward than the static center of Lateral resistance, Deciding on how much lead the boat will need is something of a black art. Boats with a full bow tend to need more lead (to offset their tendency for weather helm). Boats with tall efficient rigs need more lead than boats with lower aspect and otherwise less efficient rigs.; 

So, as described in the letter, Alan Pape was right to move the lead forward from that of the ketch since the sloop/cutter had a taller and more efficient rig. 

But, what Alan Pape was not saying was that the mast was moved forward. In fact, to end up with the center of effort (and therefore the lead) of the sloop/cutter being anywhere near the center of effort of the ketch, the mast would need to move aft on the sloop or cutter. 

My guess is that Pape did not move the lead far enough forward. I would further venture that since you have the ketch sail plan, you should be able to measure (from the stern) where the main mast on the Ketch was intended to be located, and that you will find that your mast is well aft of the ketch main mast position.

I will then further venture to speculate that the boat was built with the mast in the position that Pape specified. During its early sailing, she was found to have excessive weather helm and the mast was moved further forward still. That is why you have the abandoned mast king post. Moving the mast a foot forward is enormous, and risked lee helm, but as you have observed, you still have a lot of weather helm suggesting that the mast could have gone further still. 

There are other things which can be measured that might help us. You can measure the rake of the mast with a 2-4 foot level. You can attempt to determine the extent to which the boat is sitting on her lines, If she is down in the bow that will increase weather helm and make it hard to stand the mast up enough to offset that weather helm. 

Anyway, that is my story for today.

Jeff


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

JeffH.

Thanks for that. The plans I have are pretty rough. I think i will try to redraw them in a cad program.

After our last conversation I have been sitting here this whole time looking at the plans. I now see I was mistaken about the mast position. I now believe the mast has NOT been repositioned. The interior layout of the actual boat does not match the drawings.

She has two two outwardly identical posts. One is the “king post” and is a steel box beam sheathed in mahogany. The other is a wood post, sheathed in mahogany; I just discovered this wooden beam (as designed?) is set into short box beam sections. It is this second wooden beam that was removed and reinstalled so that he could move the settees aft, stealing some room from the galley.

I need to keep exploring this and idea. At the moment it looks the simplest and most logical, a relatively minor change in interior fit out. It seems to resolve differences between deck support beams and port light locations.

Bottom line: if this is correct then the mast is right where it was on the ketch, I think.

I have contacted the manager museum in Corwalls looking for copies of the plans. They wrote back acknowledging my request but told me it would be quite a long time before they full filled it.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Jeff_H said:


> From an analytic standpoint, it would be helpful if next time you go sailing, if you could set your sails as perfectly as you can on a beat, then take a picture from against the windward side of the boom, the center of the length of the boom looking at the head of the sail and doing the same at the center of the foot of the jib doing the same. There may be some clues in those photos.


To go along with this suggestion, I recently ran across the following free software that allows one to get sail shape measurements from these types of pictures - draft, camber, entry/exit angles, twist, etc.





__





SailPack-Vision


Software and service for the yachting industry.




www.bsgdev.com





BTW, I don't remember any mention of sail age or condition (long thread), but a worn mainsail with too much draft located to far aft will cause a lot of weather helm, as will a mast not set properly for the sail's luff curve if the sail is in good condition. I'd rule this out first. The above software will tell you that story without guessing.

Mark


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I will look into that.

Right now struggling with getting good pics of the drawings. I tried using the ones I had but there was too much distortion. I will have to make a concerted effort to get some better pics.

I have had 2 sailmakers tell the sails were in pretty good shale and unlikely the problem.

I was surprised no one commented on me (stuoidly) sailing around with the plain double braid halyards. I am hopefull the change to StaySet makes a noticeable difference. 

I continue to think I am the biggest problem. With the help I got here things have improved. A little bit at a time.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hpeer said:


> I was surprised no one commented on me (stuoidly) sailing around with the plain double braid halyards. I am hopefull the change to StaySet makes a noticeable difference.


I don't recall reading the discussion on cordage above, but New England Ropes Sta-Set is just plain double braid. Solid all-around cordage and easy to find on sale, but nothing exotic. Maybe you meant Sta-Set X?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

hpeer said:


> I have had 2 sailmakers tell the sails were in pretty good shale and unlikely the problem.
> 
> I was surprised no one commented on me (stuoidly) sailing around with the plain double braid halyards. I am hopefull the change to StaySet makes a noticeable difference.


Did the sailmakers see the sails deployed on the rig, as well as in use?

I am missing the point of how a slightly stretchy halyard would cause forestay sag. A halyard has little to do with this. Sag is controlled by standing rigging tension. A loose halyard could cause the draft of a sail to move aft, or too much camber, which could contribute to weatherhelm.

Mark


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

My bad, the old halyards were nylon (I believe). Not sure how to tell the difference. The weave was different, not normal 12 strand. Right or wrong I think I am moving from Nylon to Stayset. That should make a difference on the main at least.

And yes, I have retensioned my forestay in the meantime, increased the tension significantly. It was another bit that helped.

I have yet to find a sailmaker willing to come onto the boat under sail. One at least acknowledged the problem, eats up too much time for not enough money. The ones I asked said they can tell pretty well by how the sail lays on the floor. My staysail is old, if any sail needed replacing it was that. I took it took a sailmaker and asked him to make a new one. A ciuple of days latter he told me he looked at it and it was fine. Showing signs of wear but still of good shape. He declined the work. The boat was on the hard 150 yards from his shop.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

hpeer said:


> My bad, the old halyards were nylon (I believe). Not sure how to tell the difference. The weave was different, not normal 12 strand. Right or wrong I think I am moving from Nylon to Stayset. That should make a difference on the main at least.
> 
> And yes, I have retensioned my forestay in the meantime, increased the tension significantly. It was another bit that helped.
> 
> I have yet to find a sailmaker willing to come onto the boat under sail. One at least acknowledged the problem, eats up too much time for not enough money. The ones I asked said they can tell pretty well by how the sail lays on the floor. My staysail is old, if any sail needed replacing it was that. I took it took a sailmaker and asked him to make a new one. A ciuple of days latter he told me he looked at it and it was fine. Showing signs of wear but still of good shape. He declined the work. The boat was on the hard 150 yards from his shop.


Did you change the forestay tension by adjusting the back stay or by adjusting the forestay. if you increased the tension by adjusting the forestay then you shortened the forestay which moved the mast head forward which would decrease weather helm. the forestay turnbuckle is for adjusting forestay length ( mast rack ) and the back stay is for adjusting the forestay tension.

Stretchy halyards can effect weather helm but if the wind is steady and the halyards are set correctly there would be little difference, gusty winds are when the stretch is a problem.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I adjusted the backstays.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Alrighty, having spent a few days with the drawings I now have a better understanding of how this boat evolved.

MOST IMPORTANT, I am now pretty sure I was WRONG about the mast being moved forward, it was moved aft from the ketch design.

If I do it correctly there should appear below 3 sketches if variants. As I understand it the guy who had Safara built was working with Alan Pape drawings and this should show the evolution from the ketch into the cutter.

The main mast has been moved 3 to 4 Aft and the mizzen removed.

Also, I now have some fairly accurate drawings of Safara in profile. I am off 2-3" in vertical elevation for the hull. Why I don't know. The drawings have some significant distortion, the tape used shrank and scrunched the drawings among other things. Length was about 7" short forward of the mast and 2" aft if the mast.

What I thought were accurate interior layouts were apparently an earlier version that was modified during the build.

In short, this should out to rest the mast placement issue, it was adjusted, presumablyby the naval architect, in the expected direction by a reasonable amount.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)




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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

There is enough Information there that we should be able to pretty accurately calculate the relative location of the 'lead' of each of the rigs and compare them per the earlier discussions. It is off that Alan Pape did not chose to show the CE and CLR on those drawings. Normally the only reason that you show a profile with a sail plan and keel profile is to show CE and CLR. 

Jeff


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff,

Those are not Pape’s drawings. Near as I can figure the builder traced out Pape’s #197 (short coach roof ketch) then started fiddling with it to make it his own. Then he went back to Pape to get real drawings. CMC, the constructors, were making #197 hulls. So what he was communicating were modifications.

I have put together a pretty fair CAD drawing, .dwg or .dxf (I work in Turbocad). And I have a sheet of calculations for #197 that I transcribed as best I could. 

I could send you these if you have interest and if you PM your email.

Back to your previous comments:
The mast is within 2° +/- of plumb. I used an iPhone app that allows me to measure tilt. See image below.

I have raised the waterline in the stern about 2”, maybe more. She is down from design waterline some. But I have a LOT of tools and spares aboard.

Finally I know some ballast was shifted around from Pape’s origional schedule. I see some correspondence about that, but I also was able to sound the ballast sections and know what was done is different from the correspondence.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Over lunch, I rescaled the drawings to the same scale, and ran some rough numbers. I must say that what came back is pretty strange.
First of all, the two ketches have very different rigs in terms of sail area, and leads. The long trunk cabin version has its lead over 8 inches aft of the original design and has roughly 60 square feet less sail area. That is an expectedly large difference in lead and sail area.

But what is even stranger is that the lead on the cutter is over a foot forward of the lead on the original ketch rig (and obviously more on the other version). Per the letter from Alan Pape and from normal practice it would be expected that the cutter would have its lead slightly forward of the ketch, but that is really huge difference. In theory, if the ketch was a balanced rig, you would expect the cutter to have a lee helm, and a rather large lee helm at that.

Another oddity, is that a sloop or cutter would normally have less sail area than the ketch version of the boat. In theory, the ketch rig is less efficient and so the ketch version needs more sail area. But in this case, the cutter has 5% more sail area than the original ketch rig, and 11% more than the long cabin version.

The drawing shows the cutter rig with a 2 1/2 degree rake to the mast, You measured 2 degrees so the rake is pretty far forward relative to that shown on the drawing. and that would further tend to cause lee helm.

So the mystery really continues since all of these would suggest a neutral or lee helm, yet you are plagued by weather helm..

Jeff


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I wouldn't rule out the sails themselves, as mentioned earlier. I have little experience with boat design, but just looking at that hull form and keel, it doesn't seem like it would take much moving sail draft aft with too much camber to make that boat round up.

Mark


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Looking at the pics of the boat i see whole lot of stuff mounted on the stern that is causing a lot of drag and windage. the drawings do not show that version of the boat and would wonder if that is adding a bit to the weather helm. I would rake the mast as far forward as you can and see how much that effects the helm. sails are also a variable that is overlooked did the sailmaker get them right in the first place and how old are they. start out with a clean boat and over time adding stuff on the stern as the sails get older and older with each cruise can have a big effect on boat handling


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I completely agree with the suggestions in both of post 124 and 125. 

Out of curiosity I ran a quick calculation of the center of the lateral plane. (CLR) Based on that the lead of the cutter is has the CLR roughly 5 1/2 feet aft of the CE. That is a wildly large lead by any standard and certainly by traditional ,methods of calculating lead. By that measure the boat should have a whole lot of lee helm.

If I remember correctly, Bob Perry once commented looking at one of my of my design sketches with a pretty minimal area fin keel, He commented that he stacks the center of effort essentially over the leading edge of the keel. If I do that then the CE is roughly 1'-6" behind the center of the leading edge of the keel and that might explain some of the weather helm. Other sources, have suggested that the dynamic CLR is roughly 25 to 30% of the chord length aft of the leading edge of the keel, and that would result in a very slight weather helm. 

Jeff


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Jeff,

I have a better drawing with actual measured dimensions. How best to communicate that to you?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Lets see if this works.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

hpeer said:


> Lets see if this works.
> 
> View attachment 138375





hpeer said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I have a better drawing with actual measured dimensions. How best to communicate that to you?


Check your PM for my email address.

I just compared your measured dimensions to those on the historic drawings that you posted earlier. Compared to the historic drawings, your measurements show that your mast is 8 feet taller, your boom is 1'-6" longer, and your bowsprit is 3 feet shorter than the drawings. Your measurements show that the mast is exactly where it was drawn on the historic drawings. That is a whole lot of sail area to add so far aft. I will have to draw that up and see what that looks like.

Jeff


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Weatherhelm update

This is an update to the above thread to recap all that occurred. I have been waiting (and waiting) to post this recap until I had more actual experience with all the changes in place, but Covid and Life have intervened. Other than a 1,500 mile milk run from Dominica to Beaufort, NC we have done very little sailing in the last nearly 2 years. But we have done a little and I am optimistic. 

First almost every single suggestion and comment above has had merit and has added to my understanding, which continues to grow. It is truly remarkable how far I had my head up my arse. I know better but I didn’t DO better. I had gotten stuck in some rigid thinking and having a bunch if guys to talk with has been a god-send. So in review…..

The nub of what motivated me to work on the boats balance was that I have trouble getting the AP to steer. This resolved into 2 issues: weatherhelm and heavy rudder effort. The rudder effort is what it is, there is no easy fix. I have fully explored the causes and I can see it has already been optimized for this configuration. The next step is to convert to hydraulic steering or some other “assist” and I am NOT going there. I need to live with it and I shall. 

The weather helm issue however was full of opportunity and may still have some refinements. The last few little sails I have squeezed in give me great hope it is well in hand. I still need some heavy air off shore to be completely confident. 

The first round of improvements included retuning the rig to tighten the backstay and loosen the inner foresail stay and also doing a better job of setting the main properly (duh!). But things were still not right. I had this strong feeling it had to do with the genoa/yankee but could not articulate it. JeffH has helped me a lot understanding my boat in particular and balance in general.

As it turns out THIS hill fit out (cutter) is a good bit different from its sister ships (ketch), I have a taller stick and considerably higher sail area. Also my balance point is quite far forward. In 2006 the PO bought a new main and genoa/yankee, but did not consult the original designers (Alan Pape) recommendations. Mainsail size was increased by over 10% with a larger roach, and headsail size/weight was ignored completely. The Pape recommended genoa was a bit larger and half the weight of the 2006 genoa. Pape also called for a less than full lift #1 jib (7’ pendant) and a #2 jib. I still have that #1 jib or its replacement.

What I derive looking at the Pape recommendations is (very approximately)
<12 knots a 8oz 625’ genoa. This will set in winds from about 4knots. 


> 12 knots a 350’ #1 jib with 215’ staysail for 565’.


What I had in the 2006 sail was a 575’ Genoa/Yankee of 12oz cloth. This sail would not flutter in 7knots and by 12 knots you were thinking of reefing. 

The CE of this 2006 sails CE is considerably aft and higher than the Pape configuration. Not a huge issue at 12 knots, at 15 and above it makes for weather helm. Worse, I have had 2 times when hit by unexpected gusts, going from <10 to >25 instantly. In both cases I let the main go but the boat broached anyway. The genoa’s high and aft CE both contributed. And the same thing may happen with the Pape design Genoa. I don’t intend to use that a whole lot except for downwind (e.g. Dominica to Beaufort where it worked well) or maybe the Chesapeake. 

By contrast when flying the Pape jib and staysail the CE is lower and forward but also the cloth weight is much less and the sails fill and draw down to about 4 knots. She is not as well driven in this light wind as the Pape genoa as I am giving up sail area and height. But she is better driven than the 2006 12oz. genoa/yankee which won’t fill and draw correctly until higher winds. 

The little sailing I have done indicates the weather helm is much reduced and the helm is much lighter with the original sail plan, #1 and staysail. I had to get over needing a 7’ pendant and accept that I should be raising the staysail in light airs to add sail area. Recall I have 5’ of separation between the jib stay and the staysail forestay. It also gives me a lot of luff length between the 2 sails for beating. Not tested, we will see. Hopeful. 

Bottom line, the 12oz 2006 Yankee is at Bacon Sails on consignment. Very Good condition assessment. It will work on some boat, just not my boat. This is a situation where an experience sailmaker, in all good faith, did not heed (or know?) the designers intentions and provided an inappropriate sail for the boat. 

So much for the headsails, lets talk main.

The 2006 main (also 12oz cloth - 550’) is in good shape. I was not setting it correctly. I have had it to 3 sailmakers who said nothing was wrong. The 4th sailmaker actually pulled the sail out tight and pointed out it had a big belly. He said “Shes blown out Mate, you need a new one.” I had him try to relieve the luff bolt rope and he said it could not economically be done. I took his word and ordered a new one in 10oz cloth with 3 reef points. That is now on the boat but I have not been able to sail with it. 

In the meantime, bored and with resources and spare energy, I laid out the old main and went to work on the bolt rope. It was not easy, I used a chain hoist to apply pressure between a BIG piling and a tree, but when it moved it moved 8”. The difference in belly was noticeable, dramatic even. So I am thinking that another part of my problem was this mainsail belly due to a shrunken luff. I am hopeful this will further resolve the weather helm issue. I had the sail up for a short time and it did set much better.

We are still hung up stateside. Since July of 2020 we did a long yard period in Beaufort, then moved to Edenton, NC where we replaced all 14 opening port lights. In July 2021 we moved the boat to Cambridge, MD and we spent until December 2021 renovating our house, which we have now sold. In the meantime a medical issue has arisen that has us in Delaware City, DE and will keep us here deep into March at least. 

Then it is back to the islands and then I will get to see exactly how well all these adaptions have worked out. I am hopeful. 

Thanks to all who have participated in this long process.


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## Michael Bailey (Sep 10, 2021)

Yours has been a great educational line of thinking. Thanks for sharing. You asked about good books that would be helpful. Donald Street wrote two books that apply to boats of the vintage design that your boat seems to be. Perhaps you have heard of him he was famous and from the cruising grounds that you have chosen. Brian Toss has written about setting up boats of similar vintage. Skene's Elements of yacht design should help you with the issues that Jeff has been helping with. These authors were and still are real authorities on how sailboats work. Thanks again for sharing your story!


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Thank you.
I found some writing by Ted Brewer and John Vigor appropriate to this issue.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I just came across Rigging Doctor who had this short description of how a Genoa can contribute to weatherhelm.









Weather Helm and Genoas — Rigging Doctor


The concept of sail balance is pretty easy to grasp. Powering up the headsails will produce lee helm as it moves the Center of Effort (CE) forward. Powering up the mainsail will produce weather helm as it moves the CE aft. When the forces of the main and headsails equal each other, the CE will align




www.riggingdoctor.com


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I have recently gotten a bit more sailing experience with the boat and the new sails and I wanted to provide some feedback to all that have contributed to this thread and helped me out. Recently we dailed from Delaware to the USVI and then on to St Martin. Here are my observations.

All in all I am very please with how the boat is performing. While there were many suggestions, useful suggestions, I believe the two big contributors have been the new mainsail and switching to the original #1 jib, which is very roughly a 80%-90% Yankee. But also my jury righed traveller's is working fine. I can see distinct changes in each sail. With the main many times it seemed it didn't matter what I did with the damm thing, it just never developed much effort on the sheets. Now I get definite feedback and can feel how making minor adjustments changes how the boat is sailing, how it balances. It is a VERY different experience. 

Same thing with the jib. The weather helm is gone and at times I actually have some Lee helm. I started this effort because I was working with a PYPILOT AP and I could not get it to steer the boat because I had weatherhelm. Now I am doing much better with the AP. It is funny, if I get the boat so well balanced she will hold her course hands off the AP world do great. I also am experimenting with a Pealegic tiller pilot driving an Aries wind vane input. That has a great deal more authority in course keeping. 

The boat sails flatter, and despite loosing foresail square footage, because of the lighter cloth, I am actually sailing better at low wind speeds. Overall my speed has picked up noticeably, hard to tell how much because I have 2 years of growth of undetermined quantity or effect. Yet dirty bottom and still faster is good.

I can see I need to change how and when to use my staysail. I think I will be using it more as a light wind sail to augment the #1, to add sail area. Here in the Eastern Caribbean there is generally plenty of wind so that is less of a concern.

The question I need to work out is the reefing order. The new main has 3 reefs. It may go like this:
#1 & stay / full main to 1 reef
#1 alone / 1 or 2 reefs
Stay alone / 2 or 3 reefs

Coming down the Delaware we were zipping along with 3 reefs and staysail, 25 knots gusting to low 30's. Most of the way down from Delaware to the VI's we were with 1 or 2 reefs with either the #1 or #1 and staysail. But you must remember that my Wife is prone to seasickness and the 8' swell pushed her hard, then she got food poisoning for a few days. So I was sailing very conservatively. 

Bottom line is there is a marked improvement, I would call the weather helm issue "solved". 

Many thanks for all who assisted me with this project.


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## Michael Bailey (Sep 10, 2021)

hpeer said:


> I have recently gotten a bit more sailing experience with the boat and the new sails and I wanted to provide some feedback to all that have contributed to this thread and helped me out. Recently we dailed from Delaware to the USVI and then on to St Martin. Here are my observations.
> 
> All in all I am very please with how the boat is performing. While there were many suggestions, useful suggestions, I believe the two big contributors have been the new mainsail and switching to the original #1 jib, which is very roughly a 80%-90% Yankee. But also my jury righed traveller's is working fine. I can see distinct changes in each sail. With the main many times it seemed it didn't matter what I did with the damm thing, it just never developed much effort on the sheets. Now I get definite feedback and can feel how making minor adjustments changes how the boat is sailing, how it balances. It is a VERY different experience.
> 
> ...


It is good to hear that your new sails are working so well. Your boat's performance would probably improve as much again by servicing the bottom. It makes a very big difference in performance. If you are motoring it will save a lot on your fuel bills.


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