# Starting a business?



## Mandavel (Apr 9, 2013)

Greetings all at Sailnet. This will be my first post, and much to the dismay of many veterans here, it will be to ask about starting a charter business. I'm sure there are many threads like this, but not many answer my question fully.

My situation and vision:

I am a young guy very interested in buying a boat to live aboard in/near the Annapolis area. From that liveaboard boat I am considering the prospects of running a daysail/tour/transportation/delivery/courier (spanning anything really, but not really into fishing just yet) service in the daytime, and maybe some extended cruising if the money's right.

Being a novice who doesn't even own a boat, nor do I have a grand amount of experience (been on/helped/watched sail a boat a couple times) I have been slamming the internet lately trying to educate myself however I can.

Despite this, I do have an idea of what it would take to start and run a business, and I know, as I have read this a hundred times, that the charter business is a fool's errand. However, the majority of advice that I've seen has been related to fishing charters... Not travel charters.

So I know about all the negatives and "you'll have no monies" and stuff. I am a musician, and they don't call us "starving musicians" for nothing.

But my point: for strictly a travel charter business, no more than 6 passengers, on my own liveaboard boat (really looking at a 1984 Baba 30 or similar, and I'm a minimalist liver as it is) Where I would hope to be doing all the work myself as the sole owner, operator and proprietor, what licensing, coding, regulatory things, credentials or whatever else will I need to be fully legal and functional? I understand that a Coast Guard license, a captain's license, and insurance are definitely needed. But is even a captain's license necessary with my business plan?

What other things will I need to consider? I understand many of the monetary holes: maintenance, supplies, passenger feel-good things, etc. I also understand that "most liveaboards don't sail because they don't put their things away" or whatever. I would plan on keeping the boat at the most  an hour's work from being ready to sail on a normal day, not regarding extended maintenance days and whatnot.

Any other advices/resources I should check out? Is there a "one stop shop" that defines EVERY FORM, EVERY PAPERWORK/EVERY LICENSE I will require?

Thanks a lot for any advices, tips and direction from the veterans, and fair winds.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

You will have alot of competition. I just did a quick web search and found no less than 10 people doing the same thing you are planning to do. I would be be very careful.

That being said you need at least the following:

USCG License (requires a minimum of 360 days documented sea time serving as crew, 90 of those days must be within the last 3-5 years, passing the USCG License exam, passing a medical physical, criminal backgroun check, and a drug test); 

Auxillary Sailing Endorsement on your license;

Transit Worker Identification Card (TWIC);

Certificate to prove you are in a Random Drug Testing Program;

Commercial Marine, and Business Insurance (you won't get dock space without it);

USCG Boat Documentation and Maryland Boat Registration;

All appropriate business licenses from Maryland and Annapollis;

Good luck.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The Baba 30 would be one of the worst choices that you could come up with to do this in the Annapolis area. You need a boat with a good sized cockpit, handles a chop well, which sails well in light air and is easy to handle in heavy air. The Baba is high maintanence, over-priced choice which conforms with none of the needed attributes above.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> The Baba 30 would be one of the worst choices that you could come up with to do this in the Annapolis area. You need a boat with a good sized cockpit, handles a chop well, which sails well in light air and is easy to handle in heavy air. The Baba is high maintanence, over-priced choice which conforms with none of the needed attributes above.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


Jeff is quite correct. If you are doing day-sails only (i.e. 3 hour tours), something like a Catalina 34 would work. If you are looking to take guests over night, you will need at least a 40 footer.


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## Mandavel (Apr 9, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> The Baba 30 would be one of the worst choices that you could come up with to do this in the Annapolis area. You need a boat with a good sized cockpit, handles a chop well, which sails well in light air and is easy to handle in heavy air. The Baba is high maintanence, over-priced choice which conforms with none of the needed attributes above.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


What would be your choice for the needed attributes above?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

To provide a meaningful answer I would need more information and to some extent the best choice depends on what else you wanted to use the boat for. For example:

Are you just using the boat for charters or are you living aboard? 

In a good year, the charter season in Annapolis is roughly late April until early October. What are your plans for the boat off-season?

Do you plan to do over nights or just day sails? 

What is your budget?

What attracted you to the Baba in the first place? 

Jeff


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Yes, you might be a "minimalist liver" (by the way I think this can be fixed by drinking more alcohol, but if done to much will give you a maximus liver) you must think about what the people paying you will want. They will want a large comfortable cockpit and a spacious salon to duck down to escape the sun/heat. Also if on over nights you will need at least two cabins. One other thing to keep in mind is that you live in an area that tends to have light winds during your busy season, so you should look for something that will move quite well in light air so a Baba or anything with a full keel is out. Baba's are great boats for voyages, not for day sails. Look for a SA/Disp of over 18 would be where I would start fin keel and spade rudder. If you really are thinking of making money off it, the boat is for your customers not you and you get to live on what will make money. They are paying for sailing, so do not expect them to want to hear the motor when the wind is less than 15 knots. Unless you are just looking to pay for a little bit of your hobby. 

You might not want to hire anyone named Gilligan as look at what trouble he caused on there three hour tour.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Look at the Woodwind site. That's your competition. Check the prices. You have to beat that number with better service and quality experience.

You cannot compete single-handed, even with an autopilot. You have to have someone tending to clients.

You have to have a captain's license, at least a six-pack.

If you had a really nice boat you could pick up the edges of the market, like marriage proposals, some anniversaries, the odd family outing. Something like a Beneteau 42CC might get some traction in the middle Bay. Maybe.

You have to pump out good food and drink, have a soft and comfortable but exhilarating ride.

If you can't do food prep yourself (remember nice service - more capital into plates, tableware, and glassware) you're going to spend a lot at Ken's Kitchen, Main Ingredient, Leeward Market, or one of the other "boaty" caterers around town. Another reason to have a good chef/mate.

I suggest as gently as I can that you stop reading about boats and start doing a competitive analysis. I suspect you'll conclude that this nifty idea of yours doesn't have the potential you think it does. Sorry.


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## Mandavel (Apr 9, 2013)

Okay, all excellent points to consider.

Now, my responses and further questions:

Thanks Yam, I'll look into all that.



Jeff_H said:


> To provide a meaningful answer I would need more information and to some extent the best choice depends on what else you wanted to use the boat for. For example:
> 
> Are you just using the boat for charters or are you living aboard?
> 
> ...


Ideally I would plan on living aboard whilst running the business out of the same boat, as I really would rather not have to throw money into a landborne home while I have a perfectly good boat right there. I can certainly keep my small amount of things hidden and stowed to keep the boat nice and tidy.

I honestly had put little thought into off-season, but I have considered sailing to a different place that has a sunny winter. Where, no idea yet. Caribbean? although I assume the competition there is even more fierce and work scarce. Any ideas?

At this point I'd be willing to do overnights, day trips, anything that will generate income. I would have a lot of time to commit to this. Again, ideas for more forms of work?

Honestly I liked the interior of the 1984 baba to begin with. It looks homey and comfortable, and assuming I'm anything like customers, I figured it would appeal to them as well. I will admit that I knew not of the issues described. I've seen good reviews of it from owners and non-owners.

I wasn't aware that serving meals and whatnot was of importance. I have a good chef friend I'd be willing to take along to handle the passenger deal, and I have done a lot of restaurant work myself and am very good in customer service.

I am currently doing research into competitive services, worry not my friend.

But please, keep the critiques and ideas coming, this is giving me a lot to glue together.

What else is out there for a singular boat to draw income with?

Thank you all.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

if you want to see my rendition of an easy life style that worked for me . look at threehoursail.com or google SV thane . Shameless plug 'cause it's. all for sale .Great live aboard too in paradise.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Going south for the winter does add some complications in terms of finding another home base, suppliers, business licenses, relationships with a marina, etc. But it gets even more complicated if you leave US territory.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

The Baba may look "homey and comfortable" to you, but you are looking at it completely differently than a charter guest would be. They aren't going to live on it, so "homey" doesn't count for squat with them. What they will want is a big cockpit and/or a deck that they can lounge on. If they go below (and that's a big "if") then what they will be looking for is a sort of comfortable, airy, living room with lots of light. Oh, yeah, and a nice, big head that they can use when they need to.

You also need to take to heart the comment that this is not something you can do by yourself. You WILL need a mate of some sort. You simply cannot attend to all of the details of sailing the boat by yourself, AND attend to your guests at the same time. Ain't gonna happen.

If you plan to live aboard, then you have to have a marina that allows that. Not all do. Be sure you ask about that when looking for a place to keep the boat.

You may not have to serve full meals on day trips, but you will definitely need to have some refreshments and snacks available. On overnights, yes, guests are going to expect to be fed.

And, as others have said, a Coast Guard Captains license is an absolute requirement.

Good luck to you.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

I had some friends who were interested in buying a bed and breakfast, to live in and run as a business. I asked my dad, who was in the hotel business, if he had any advice for them. He said, "Anyone who wants to own a bed and breakfast should spend a year working in someone else's bed and breakfast."

That may or may not be possible in the type of business you are considering, but the point is: best to experience and learn about the business, _including if you like it,_ before going all in.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

It's a grand dream my friend. Don't ever let someone put your dreams out to pasture. We all crush enough of our own dreams without letting others do it for us. 
That being said, keep in mind the guys you have here in this site live this life style" not chartering" but right next to it. Most are Yachtsmen, most don't just think, they "know". They have read many dreamers and watched many make it work and many fail. They have great advice "collectively". Some guy's optimist by nature and will encourage you, using all the "positive examples" they have in their life. Then there the guys that always have something to say on the other side. Please beware of this&#8230;.. Look for the signs. Watch for the 
•	Negative Nancy 
•	Downer 
•	Drag 
•	Debbie Downer 
•	Naysayer 
•	Prophet of doom 
•	Doomsayer 
•	Futilitarian 
Keep your dreams real man... You only live once. If you don't get it right the first time what have you lost, really? Your time. But you will have learned and gained so much. 
You don't want to forgo safety "ever" and need to be trained before you let any other person on your boat, paying or otherwise. You are the captain of that boat. If someone gets hurt or worse, its all on you brother. so take it seriously. You are young enough to get a lot done in a short amount of time. If things don't work out you can get back up quickly. Keep in mind that there is some so called old salt's that have not untied their boats in months. They are some that had dreams before that did not materialize so they figure that no one can do it if they can't. Then there are some here that have circled the planet by their self. So with that I will say;
Do the Google searches.
1) What are the successful charters doing in the area you want to do it in?
2) What is the pressure? How many are in your market?
3) How long will it take to get it underway?
4) How much will it cost me all together?
5) Water living is not the charter business. Do you want to work were you live?
6) Are you just wanting a way to pay for living at the dock in your boat? There is other ways. 
7) how many years are you willing to invest in the process?
Remember if you can't do it safely don't do it.
Do it.
God Speed, Capt.Burt


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## arvicola-amphibius (Apr 14, 2012)

Lots of good advice here. Scratchee's probably the best. To get your Master's ticket you need a year's accredited sea-time anyway, so why not work aboard a skippered boat and see how it really goes?

When I owned a 42 foot ketch, I once thought it would be great to combine my love of sailing with chartering for a living, but came to three conclusions:

1. Being seasonal, and subject to so much competition, it is a marginal living at best

2. I am not patient with 'difficult' or demanding people, so unless I hit it off with the customer, it would not be enjoyable for either party

3. After too much exposure - i.e. doing it daily just in the one area - it would probably take the pleasure out of sailing. I like going to new places.

Also, as others here say, 30ft is way too small for skippered charter. You, a deckhand/cook and a couple? It may be OK if you are close friends, but when people pay they expect space and comfort. My current 30 footer is to me, the ultimate boat for sailing solo, and occasionally I will invite one or at most two other persons aboard for company. But for anything more than a day-sail that's about the limit for a 30 footer. On charter, the ladies in particular will demand privacy simply not afforded aboard a small boat. Bareboating with a couple of friends, I would be looking at 34ft minimum.

If you were the only game in town in a really exotic foreign location, people would probably pay for the 'experience' and accept some short-term discomfort on a 30 footer as part of the deal, but in a competitive environment you really need to run your business plan around something closer to 40ft.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

Mandavel -
If you do nothing else but focus strictly on getting your captains license, by the time you get it you will be able to answer the rest of your questions.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I've made my boat pay for 38 years now. Packing clams,towing house boats, chartering to a couple of working girls following the herring fleet, sailing charters all over the Salish Sea. but the easiest is my threehoursail.com in Victoria. None of the previous stated objections apply and I can assure you it beats working for a living . Fortunately I,d built in the proper plumbing, wiring and w/t bulkheads so CSI was a given. I carry 18 day and 6 overnight passengers .Both my mate and I have our master limited ticket.At 70 ,I,m approaching a waypoint so the whole kit and caboodle is for sail . Google threehoursail.com/about/captain_crew.html‎


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Capt Len said:


> I've made my boat pay for 38 years now. Packing clams,towing house boats, chartering to a couple of working girls following the herring fleet, sailing charters all over the Salish Sea. but the easiest is my threehoursail.com in Victoria. None of the previous stated objections apply and I can assure you it beats working for a living . Fortunately I,d built in the proper plumbing, wiring and w/t bulkheads so CSI was a given. I carry 18 day and 6 overnight passengers .Both my mate and I have our master limited ticket.At 70 ,I,m approaching a waypoint so the whole kit and caboodle is for sail . Google threehoursail.com/about/captain_crew.html‎


There you go Gilligan! Turn Key!!!! Just write this fine gentleman a check!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I have no idea about the feasibility of the day charter market in Annapolis, so I'll leave that to others to comment.

However the fees for the necessary licenses include:
OUPV course ~$550 (optional - but strongly recommended) 
$445 in miscellaneous costs (Physical, Drug Test, Drug test enrollment, Testing Fee, Application Fee, CPR/First Aid Certificate, etc.)
TWIC ~$145

About $1200 in costs, plus time.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Capt Len said:


> ...chartering to a couple of working girls following the herring fleet...‎


What kind of adhesive did you use to mount the mirrors on the headliner?


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