# Non-racer etiquette?



## MacBlaze

Disclaimer: I don't race, know next to nothing about it...

We were approaching Baynes Channel and Cardboro Point south of Sidney on Saturday under power and we noticed about 10 or 15 sailboats headed towards us with spinnakers flying. I figured we were about to motor straight into a regatta or race out of Cadboro Bay. It looked like they were using the V29 lateral buoy off Johnstone reef as their turn point and sure enough, just as we passed it about 100 meters away, three boats doused their spinnakers and came racing around the marker pretty much on a collision course with us. 

I really had no idea what the etiquette was in these situations other than the knowledge they had the right of way — and that I didn't want to ruin anyone's race. So I went hard to starboard and pointed at the stern of the last of three boats and watched them cross my bow meters away. Then we turned back onto our original course and continued to dodge the rest of the oncoming boats that hadn't made the turn yet. One of the original three decided to short tack and they came screaming back across our stern, the sides covered in rail meat. They tacked back and forth generally on our course off our stern and as they turned into Baynes channel they weren't that far behind us. Just goes to show sailing in good wind can be faster than motoring.

I altered course one more time as I turned into Baynes Channel and slowed down to allow the first two boats who were again on a collision course to slip through ahead of us. After that there was plenty of room in the Channel and we were passed by one more boat before we took off to wards Trial Island and they all head back to Oak Bay.

Essentially I motored right through the middle of their race course, but I am pretty sure it wasn't' an "official" race and really, there was nothing else I could do unless I was willing to head back out into Haro Strait and go around Discovery Islands. I am pretty sure I didn't screw with anyone's race although I may have made a skipper a bit more nervous than usual.

Did I do enough? Did I do too much?


----------



## Faster

No worries.. 

I'm sure the fleet felt it was an 'Official' race, the RVic runs a lot of races and I wouldn't be surprised if races were organized out of Oak Bay.

In any event, you gave way and did you best to avoid messing anyone up. That's about all you could do. The racers are accustomed to avoiding obstacles (which, according to the rules, you were).. the one thing I might suggest is to not make a lot of sudden moves - i.e. a racer may have decided to avoid you and plans for your current speed and heading. if you suddenly change either of those you'll throw off their calculations and may create a new risk of collision.


----------



## jackdale

Racing boats are subject to colregs just like everyone else. It is matter of courtesy that non-racing boats try to avoid interfering with the race. 

You were a power driven vessel. As such you were a give way vessel to the sailing vessels. They have the obligation of maintain course and speed (assuming it is safe to do so).

Racers are used to being in close proximity with other vessels.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

MacBlaze said:


> I really had no idea what the etiquette was in these situations other than the knowledge they had the right of way
> 
> Did I do enough? Did I do too much?


No! They did NOT have the right of way!

They can not change course onto a collision course and put you in danger, no matter that you are under power.

Also you are in a channel.

Too many times racing boats think they own the bay over recreational boaters. Just not true!

If race boats are going faster than you, on erratic courses, you are fine to keep a steady course at a safe speed and let them manoeuvre around you.



Mark


----------



## rnixon

Faster said:


> the one thing I might suggest is to not make a lot of sudden moves - i.e. a racer may have decided to avoid you and plans for your current speed and heading. if you suddenly change either of those you'll throw off their calculations and may create a new risk of collision.


As Jack said, as the give-way vessel on a collision course, you have to "take early and substantial action to keep well clear". It sounds like the OP handled the situation well to me.


----------



## hmt321

I own a boat and race a good bit.
I think you did just fine. 

Perhaps you could have spun about real fast motoring back the way you came until all boats were clear then get back on your way. But perhaps not. That is the only thing i can think of that you did not do. I would probably have done what you did. 

If you can stay away from them give them room. 
If you are in a channel and can't get out of it do what you can.

If you cant get away from each other the racing boat may ask you to move to a certain position. If what he said was reasonable I would probably do it (if he was polite).


----------



## jeremiahblatz

Racer and daysailer here (in a heavily-trafficked area). I'm overjoyed of other boats:
1) Stay away from marks
2) Do not be upwind of nearby boats
3) Act reasonably predictable 
4) Try to stay in general away from clusters of racing boats
5) If you're putting up a wake, cross astern

(These are in priority order, BTW.)

As a vessel under power whose maneuverability us not restricted, you are required to maneuver to avoid vessels under sail, and vessels under sail are required to not make this difficult for you. Honestly if that's all you do, you're better than most of the folks I encounter, and I'd give you a friendly wave.


----------



## MacBlaze

Faster said:


> the one thing I might suggest is to not make a lot of sudden moves - i.e. a racer may have decided to avoid you and plans for your current speed and heading. if you suddenly change either of those you'll throw off their calculations and may create a new risk of collision.


I wondered about that. I would have been able to maintain course and slip between the 2nd and 3rd boat. But likely the 3rd boat's skipper would have had to (or did) make the choice to alter course slightly to guarantee a miss or take the chance of crossing a couple of meters off my stern. Either way I have no idea if I interfered with his chances at overtaking.


----------



## Stumble

My feeling is that we're reasonable, as a courtesy, it's nice to stay out of race courses. If you have to traverse one then just be as predictable as possible. Maintain a steady speed and course, and get out of the area as quickly as reasonable. But racers are boaters as well, and we know we don't own the water. 

By preference, cross someone's stern, and on the leeward side if possible. 

And remember close to you may not be the same as close to a racer. So if you feel uncomfortable act to avoid a collision and don't wait on them. Cruisers don't, and shouldn't, get as close to other boats as racers do, but some racers don't allow for as large an exclusion zone around non-racers as maybe we should.


----------



## outbound

Think OP did just fine. Think we should try to do what's necessary so our being there doesn't effect outcome of the race. So even when sailing try to not wind shadow a racer or cause him to change course. Even if I'm not burdened. 
However think it is very imprudent and almost always unnecessary for a race course to involve a trafficked channel. It's not that hard for the committee boat to place buoys and irresponsible to endanger racers and other traffic. Seeing them put small kids in skiffs and have them going through channels just scares me.


----------



## jackdale

outbound said:


> However think it is very imprudent and almost always unnecessary for a race course to involve a trafficked channel. It's not that hard for the committee boat to place buoys and irresponsible to endanger racers and other traffic. Seeing them put small kids in skiffs and have them going through channels just scares me.


Baynes Channel is usually used by recreational traffic only. Commercial traffic uses Haro Strait to the East.

It is quite common for racers to use aid to navigation as course markers.

Sidney Channel is the venue for Sidney North Saanich YC races every Satyrday morning. They often use buoy U2 as a marker.


----------



## Classic30

FWIW, our races are often run in, across and around a busy shipping channel.. and around shipping channel piles which are far worse! (dismastings are common).

Our sailing instructions specify that the channel automatically becomes a "continuing obstruction" whenever there's a ship in it and you risk disqualification if you enter it regardless. It might appear annoying but it can kinda add to the challenge because by adjusting your speed and tactical position if you see a ship coming, you can gain a pretty amazing lead over your opponents by getting across the channel before they do. After so many years, I think most of the ship-masters are used to us now... hitting the brakes at the last second, whilst they glide by. 

Who would have guessed an AIS receiver could be such an important tactical tool in a racer's arsenal?!?


----------



## outbound

Was talking in general not specific. Understand some of the challenges racers face and greatly enjoyed racing. Understand using channel markers is a common occurance and often the logical choice. In fact in the past my yacht club commonly used the channel entrance marker and a marker off a set of coastal rocks. Never had a second thought about that and it was very rare we were an issue to traffic or traffic to us. Loved PHRF racing for many years.Racing is a great way to get kids involved in sailing. Very pro racing for many reasons. Last summer got our 6 y.o. Grandson involved with the local yacht club in his town. Also think their technology trickles down to us cruisers. 
Still in my past local area have seen expanses of suitable water not used but rather channel markers used. Apparently due to ease not necessity. That harbor is of mixed commercial (fishing/ferries/ whale watch/ day fishing ) and recreational use but no shipping. Still those vessels maybe restricted in navigation and ability to stop. Was just speaking to that and concern for the kids safety. Seen a lot of full throttle go fasts do hole shots right as they are leaving the no wake zone or run in on plane. They are wrong to do this but still not an uncommon practice. If the kids are even near the channel concerned for them in little skiffs on light air days with no way to prevent getting severely waked or worse. Think this is a different thing then adults in sailing auxiliaries with more options and better processing skills. Very much don't want to suggest doing anything that in any way impedes expansion of involvement in racing. Hope prior post is not interpreted that way. Understand my prior post was poorly worded. In my brain was thinking of kids in skiffs not the more common beercan race. Would note at present in that harbor the harbor master was fired by the town, the race committee replaced, as well as new commodore elected. Things are much better.


----------



## PaulinVictoria

You did fine. Now, in future, hoist tanbark sails and tack back and forth across the course asserting your stand-on rights and yelling starboard loudly while BBQing.


----------



## Classic30

PaulinVictoria said:


> You did fine. Now, in future, hoist tanbark sails and tack back and forth across the course asserting your stand-on rights and yelling starboard loudly while BBQing.


If you were thinking of doing that, you might as well use a jet-ski.. and have more fun.


----------



## Minnewaska

MacBlaze said:


> .....just as we passed it about 100 meters away, three boats doused their spinnakers and came racing around the marker pretty much on a collision course with us....


Overall, it sounds like you did great. This is where the race fleet seems to have failed. Just because it's a marker on a race, does not give them the right to ignore their stand on requirement.

On the other hand, they may have felt very comfortable that there wasn't going to be a collision hazard. Race boats will sail closer to other boats than most find comfortable. For that matter, if they were turning around an ATN, was there sufficient water depth in the direction they were standing on, if they didn't turn? This is where the colregs get fuzzy, and just say that everyone is responsible to avoid collision regardless of stand on rules. A stand on vessel isn't expected to maintain course, if such course is not navigable.


----------



## ad28

sounds like you did just fine. It's always nice to be decent regardless of rights etc

Me, I'd have parked a bit away from the rounding mark and watched the roundings. Best part of a sailboat race for spectators is the mark roundings


----------



## albrazzi

We had a guy actually get in a collision with a Tug during a Harbor race, thought he had right of way. Imagine that. Tug had signaled properly and was backing up, talk about limited maneuverability. Race of no the Sailing vessel only has rights before changing course and within the maneuverability of other vessels. There's only so much you can do much less be expected to do, sounds like the OP did more than required. We regularly dodge anchored Boats with people in the water while racing its not a closed course.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> Race boats will sail closer to other boats than most find comfortable.


That's a very important point.

What seems like a close shave to you is a huge safety margin. It gets freaky when someone passes a stern of you by 3 feet, it maybe safe, but a split second before they will have looked like they ate going to slice you amidships.


----------



## Stumble

MarkofSeaLife said:


> That's a very important point.
> 
> What seems like a close shave to you is a huge safety margin. It gets freaky when someone passes a stern of you by 3 feet, it maybe safe, but a split second before they will have looked like they ate going to slice you amidships.


Last weekend I crossed someone's stern close enough that I could have reached DOWN and touched their stern. But my rule is to never get this close to a non-racer. I know with a very high degree of certainty what other racers are going to do, while a cruiser may take some avoiding action that actually makes a collision more likely.

I think it is poor manners of a racer to cross as close to a non-racer as you would to someone on the course. Racer-racer you are governed by the RRS, but racer-cruiser the governing rules are Colregs and they absolutely do not allow for the type of close quarters manuvering that the rrs do.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Yep, I agree.


----------



## jephotog

There is no such thing as an unofficial race. For every race there is a pickle dish and bragging rights awaiting the winner back at the yacht club. Racers take every race seriously and want you to "stay the hell out of their way," but to get into the way of their competitors or at least block their competitors wind for a bit.

It sounds like you did the right thing being conscious of the racers and tried to lessen the impact of your presence. You should stay as far away as possible from any race or at least 5 boat lengths if you have your sails up, because closer than that can cause a wind shadow.

Another reason to stay as far away as possible is for your comfort. What you consider adequate room and a racer does is very different. A "Port Tacker" racer will think of nothing of bearing down on a Starboard Tacker at full speed aiming right towards the middle of the right away boat. Then when one boat length away, cracking off while the crew eases the sails, miss the stern by 3 feet which feels and looks like 3 inches, then coming back to a close reach while the crews bring the sails back in. It is absolutely exhilarating if you are on the racing boat. It would be absolutely terrifying if you were out daysailing as a Starboard Tacker through the middle of a race.

Oops see that the subject of why not sail through the race has been well covered.


----------



## jephotog

PaulinVictoria said:


> You did fine. Now, in future, hoist tanbark sails and tack back and forth across the course asserting your stand-on rights and yelling starboard loudly while BBQing.


Extra Points for dragging your Dinghy way behind your boat.


----------



## Faster

Not to mention that crossing that close will likely cause a panicked over-reaction that could lead to an issue that wouldn't have otherwise happened.


----------



## Stu Jackson

When we bought our boat in 1998, having had a C25 for 13 years before that, and only raced once on our former C22, I knew nothing about racing. But I sailed enough on SF Bay to see where the racing boats were going and stayed as far away as I could from marks. It should be pretty obvious to anyone who has spent any time behind the helm of a cruising boat where those marks are: all of sudden LOTS of boats are heading for the SAME spot! One simply does not put themselves in that position to begin with. I know, I know, easier said than done, but really, think about it. You've learned a valuable lesson, did mostly the right things and learned something.

When faced with a bunch of spinnakers coming at me, I either get out of the way or sail through them, not so hard.

You might want to consider trying a race or two, on your boat or someone else's, and find out what happens on a race boat. Most of them are Corinthians and care very much about knowing and using the rules to avoid collisions. It only looks like bumper cars to those who haven't tried racing.

Good luck.


----------



## albrazzi

jephotog said:


> There is no such thing as an unofficial race. For every race there is a pickle dish and bragging rights awaiting the winner back at the yacht club. Racers take every race seriously and want you to "stay the hell out of their way," but to get into the way of their competitors or at least block their competitors wind for a bit.
> 
> It sounds like you did the right thing being conscious of the racers and tried to lessen the impact of your presence. You should stay as far away as possible from any race or at least 5 boat lengths if you have your sails up, because closer than that can cause a wind shadow.
> 
> Another reason to stay as far away as possible is for your comfort. What you consider adequate room and a racer does is very different. A "Port Tacker" racer will think of nothing of bearing down on a Starboard Tacker at full speed aiming right towards the middle of the right away boat. Then when one boat length away, cracking off while the crew eases the sails, miss the stern by 3 feet which feels and looks like 3 inches, then coming back to a close reach while the crews bring the sails back in. It is absolutely exhilarating if you are on the racing boat. It would be absolutely terrifying if you were out daysailing as a Starboard Tacker through the middle of a race.


I did one of those last night. When I headed back up I had to use what momentum I had to just barely carry past the mark. Close but fun. What the crew calls an "owners move"


----------



## jephotog

albrazzi said:


> I did one of those last night. When I headed back up I had to use what momentum I had to just barely carry past the mark. Close but fun. What the crew calls an "owners move"


That is a very valid maneuver as long as you barely "miss" the mark. On a race a while back the "owners move" caused us to barely hit the mark. Then the rear guard decided we had to do our turns immediately and crash gybed the boat before the pole was down. Talk about insult to injury.


----------



## uncle stinky bob

I was wondering if radio contact was attempted? and also wonder if that's not the first course of action? I'm just trying to learn as I go here. I just got to go out for my first race, crewing on a dock mates J-32, oh my lord what a ton of fun!! Cruiser and race class on the same course. A very fast 24' trimaran and couple of other fast racer class boat's. I learned a lot, had a great time of it and met some of the best folks! These guys are very serious about racing, one of them is a retired U.S. Navy Admiral, he's a serious man about his boat! I stay out of their way when I'm on my own boat, it matter's not to me who has right of way.


----------



## Scotty C-M

Interesting topic - and I agree that the OP did a great job. Good advice from all. I was sitting at the dock on a friends boat when his wife said "Oh look, there's XXX (name not used - he was sailing by on his boat). He's such a jerk". I was surprised to see that the boat she refering to was a boat I have raced on, and I really liked the skipper. It turns out that at some point during the Wednesday Night Races, XXX had come close to my friends boat. My friend was not racing. His wife was really upset about how close he came. Now I, obviously, don't know how close that was, but the point is that people really do have different perspectives to how close it is appropriate to get. 

Just to clarify: I often sail near the racers (especially on Wednesday Night Races) because I like to watch the racing and the pretty-colored-sails. I just make sure that I stay well out of the way.


----------



## PaulinVictoria

If you can't pass a beer from boat to boat, it wasn't close


----------



## Stumble

I like this picture... It shows a number of what I think of as 'close' crossings. But in Mod 70 Trimarans.


----------



## outbound

Amazing snap. Where was that?


----------



## Stumble

No idea, some Mod70 inshore race. 

The modern era of drones is allowing far better pictures of this type of thing than ever before. I need to rewatch it, but I think there was a cross in the A-Cat worlds that was captured... There was no visible space between the two boats.


----------



## DivingOtter

I'm in NJ on Toms River and there's been days where I won't even leave the dock because there's literally 7 yacht clubs racing either together or seperate on a river that's less than a mile wide.


----------



## Stumble

It should be pointed out that the MOD's are sailing around at probably 15kn or faster boat speed...


----------



## davidpm

The proper etiquette is to heaveto out of the way and take pictures of all the boats as they round the mark.

Then show up at the club after the race with a case of beer and show everyone your pictures.

Anything less is just rude.:laugh


----------



## Minnewaska

davidpm said:


> The proper etiquette is to heaveto out of the way and take pictures of all the boats as they round the mark.
> 
> Then show up at the club after the race with a case of beer and show everyone your pictures.
> 
> Anything less is just rude.:laugh


Not so sure that would always work. We had a 44' race boat in the slip next to us in a past marina. It raced every weekend, with a crew of 20 somethings, all in matching crew uniforms.

One day, they came back into their slip, shortly after we did. My wife said we had a nice sail and asked if they did as well. Their response was to gesture with their index finger like they were pressing a button and said, "that's sailing"?

Same boat would enter various Rolex sponsored races, which always get a Rolex decal attached to each side of the bow of all entrants. They would leave theirs attached for weeks after the race. You get the picture.


----------



## Scotty C-M

Wow, Minne. How rude. I know that there are people like that in every group. Too bad they happened to be right next to your slip. Glad that is no longer the case. I've found that most of the people racing are really friendly. After the race, that is!! :wink


----------



## Minnewaska

Scotty C-M said:


> Wow, Minne. How rude. I know that there are people like that in every group. Too bad they happened to be right next to your slip. Glad that is no longer the case. I've found that most of the people racing are really friendly. After the race, that is!! :wink


For sure, not all racers are like those punks. They were all sailing on daddy's dime too. Being the bigger man, I never mentioned that to them.


----------



## nhsail

If you can pass Two beers, you might be close...


----------



## caberg

I like to stay far enough away so that I cannot hear the yeller. Every race has at least one.


----------



## Classic30

caberg said:


> I like to stay far enough away so that I cannot hear the yeller. Every race has at least one.


Not necessarily.

Our Classics races, whilst highly competitive, tend to be more controlled affairs because the entire fleet knows (a) how much it costs to fix even the tiniest collision damage and (b) the bowsprit on that 23-ton Gentleman's Racer that's bearing down on you at 8-10kts will punch a hole right through even a steel yacht if it makes contact.


----------



## davidpm

caberg said:


> I like to stay far enough away so that I cannot hear the yeller. Every race has at least one.


The captain I race with uses an electric bull horn.

I've never seen that before.


----------



## smackdaddy

MarkofSeaLife said:


> No! They did NOT have the right of way!
> 
> They can not change course onto a collision course and put you in danger, no matter that you are under power.
> 
> Also you are in a channel.
> 
> Too many times racing boats think they own the bay over recreational boaters. Just not true!
> 
> If race boats are going faster than you, on erratic courses, you are fine to keep a steady course at a safe speed and let them manoeuvre around you.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark


I got into a HUGE debate on this exact issue in another thread a few years ago. It's just a matter of time before this exact scenario ends up in court.

Look at Juno v. Endeavor. The main summary of the case is entitled "Yacht Racers *Contract Out of COLREGS*" [emphasis mine].

Wrap your head around that and tell me the line isn't fuzzy - and ripe for litigation.

It will be interesting to watch.


----------



## Stumble

Smack,

It isn't difficult.

As between other racers the RRS apply, as between a racing sailboat and a non-racing boat COLREG's apply. 

In this case the stand on vessel would have been the racer because the OP was under power.


----------



## smackdaddy

Stumble said:


> Smack,
> 
> It isn't difficult.
> 
> As between other racers the RRS apply, as between a racing sailboat and a non-racing boat COLREG's apply.
> 
> In this case the stand on vessel would have been the racer because the OP was under power.


Yeah I know. When it's clear who the racers are or aren't - it isn't difficult at all. But that's the problem.


----------



## blt2ski

As for yelling, said boat may have a deaf man at the helm, or reasonably deaf, so crew yells per say to make sure HE can hear! no swearing mind you.......just loud talking! I will not say whom the deaf man is in this case......eh?!?!?!???

Mine, those punks are worst than a fisherman on a bad day! At least they do a thumbs down, or worst day fishing is better than best day working.........

Marty


----------



## ajoliver

Hey motorized friends - 

As was mentioned above, the smaller racing boats REALLY appreciate it if you tone down your wake or better yet go behind them. 

In light air, a one foot wake wave will stop many racing dingys dead in their tracks.


----------



## Classic30

Very true, that.



blt2ski said:


> As for yelling, said boat may have a deaf man at the helm, or reasonably deaf, so crew yells per say to make sure HE can hear! no swearing mind you.......just loud talking! I will not say whom the deaf man is in this case......eh?!?!?!???


Actually, I kinda appreciate the yelling: it means I can clearly hear what their tactics are from yards away and can take early action to leave them behind in my wake..


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

smackdaddy said:


> Look at Juno v. Endeavor. The main summary of the case is entitled "Yacht Racers *Contract Out of COLREGS*" [emphasis mine].
> .


Yes, Smackable, you are right:


> the rules of a private racing organization do not and cannot preempt the application of the COLREGS which have been adopted by treaty to govern worldwide.3 Thus, we look to the COLREGS for the controlling rules in this case.


JUNO v. S/Y ENDEAVOUR | Leagle.com

I didn't read the whole judgement. (As I have a life to lead  ) The facts are a very well written piece and good to read.


----------



## blt2ski

Cam,

Not sure said deaf mans boat sails on the same waters as you do, so hearing there tactics may not work in your case!

Marty


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Also in that case blame was apportioned 40:60 so both were at fault.

I still agree with what I said earlier about holding a slow, steady course and expect the racers to deviate around you, BUT always be ready to take action.


One action to take if a non-racing boat is scared when a whole fleet is approaching is to Stop the boat! Just stop, (head to wind, engine neutral) then everyone must avoid you. What do you think?


Mark


----------



## Faster

MarkofSeaLife said:


> .....
> 
> One action to take if a non-racing boat is scared when a whole fleet is approaching is to Stop the boat! Just stop, (head to wind, engine neutral) then everyone must avoid you. What do you think?
> 
> Mark


Yes, agree with that.. if you really don't know who's going where and when (or even why ) then indeed, park. You become an obstruction that everyone knows how to deal with.

However taking that decision earlier rather than later would be best - and not when you're already mid-fleet.


----------



## Stumble

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes, Smackable, you are right:
> 
> JUNO v. S/Y ENDEAVOUR | Leagle.com
> 
> I didn't read the whole judgement. (As I have a life to lead  ) The facts are a very well written piece and good to read.


When researching legal cases, particularly when reading a district court case, it is critical to see if there was an appeal. In this case there was. JUNO SRL v. ENDEAVOUR | FindLaw Where the district court was over ruled and the original decision tossed.

"Such legislation (COLREGS) is simply not applicable to private yacht racing in which the participants have voluntarily adopted a different set of rules of the road for application among themselves."

And

"In sum, the International Jury found the ENDEAVOR solely responsible for the collision, and it was inappropriate for the district court to have gone beyond this decision in the assignment of fault.   We conclude that the findings of that forum were final and binding on the parties, and we therefore reverse the decision of the district court in that regard."

And

"As we have explained, the International Jury found the ENDEAVOUR solely at fault for the collision, and therefore the district court's reduction of the CHARLES JOURDAN's award to $4,000 based on its finding that the CHARLES JOURDAN was 60% at fault was in error.   The district court is ordered to enter judgment in favor of plaintiffs in the amount of $10,000.   Costs are granted in favor of defendant."


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Stumble said:


> When researching legal cases, particularly when reading a district court case, it is critical to see if there was an appeal. In this case there was. JUNO SRL v. ENDEAVOUR | FindLaw Where the district court was over ruled and the original decision tossed.
> 
> "Such legislation (COLREGS) is simply not applicable to private yacht racing in which the participants have voluntarily adopted a different set of rules of the road for application among themselves."
> 
> And
> 
> "In sum, the International Jury found the ENDEAVOR solely responsible for the collision, and it was inappropriate for the district court to have gone beyond this decision in the assignment of fault.   We conclude that the findings of that forum were final and binding on the parties, and we therefore reverse the decision of the district court in that regard."
> 
> And
> 
> "As we have explained, the International Jury found the ENDEAVOUR solely at fault for the collision, and therefore the district court's reduction of the CHARLES JOURDAN's award to $4,000 based on its finding that the CHARLES JOURDAN was 60% at fault was in error.   The district court is ordered to enter judgment in favor of plaintiffs in the amount of $10,000.   Costs are granted in favor of defendant."


Whoops! Right, thanks for that


----------



## albrazzi

ajoliver said:


> Hey motorized friends -
> 
> As was mentioned above, the smaller racing boats REALLY appreciate it if you tone down your wake or better yet go behind them.
> 
> In light air, a one foot wake wave will stop many racing dingys dead in their tracks.


Good advise but not many of those guys on here.


----------



## Stumble

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Also in that case blame was apportioned 40:60 so both were at fault.
> 
> I still agree with what I said earlier about holding a slow, steady course and expect the racers to deviate around you, BUT always be ready to take action.
> 
> One action to take if a non-racing boat is scared when a whole fleet is approaching is to Stop the boat! Just stop, (head to wind, engine neutral) then everyone must avoid you. What do you think?
> 
> Mark


If nothing else it slows down the collision speed.

I am not sure that stopping is necessary, but if you just want to get out of there then the best option is perpendicular to the wind. most races these days are set windward-leeward courses, so at 90 degrees you get off the course as quickly as possible. If you happen to be in a point to point race, then look at the sails, if the boats are headed towards you on a beat then turn downwind, if they have spinnakers up then turn up wind.

It may also be beneficial to do something no racer ever would, like sail under just a jib or main.

Personally I assume while raceing that I am always the give way vessel to non-racing boats. It isn't written in the rules (though it should be) so this is a courtesy not a legal requirement. I almost always will duck a non-racers stern just because it is the safest way to cross, and people tend to get much angrier about someone crossing their bow by inches than they do crossing their stern by inches...


----------



## albrazzi

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Also in that case blame was apportioned 40:60 so both were at fault.
> 
> I still agree with what I said earlier about holding a slow, steady course and expect the racers to deviate around you, BUT always be ready to take action.
> 
> One action to take if a non-racing boat is scared when a whole fleet is approaching is to Stop the boat! Just stop, (head to wind, engine neutral) then everyone must avoid you. What do you think?
> 
> Mark


Maybe but tricky, harder to avoid another Boat in a worse case. Playing possum might not be considered "not under control"


----------



## Stumble

albrazzi said:


> Maybe but tricky, harder to avoid another Boat in a worse case. Playing possum might not be considered "not under control"


Putting the boat in neutral, even turning off the engine, does not make you a vessel 'not under control' it makes you a vessel under control that has chosen to make no way. Unless you have engine and rigging problems that make it impossible to control the vessel then you are still in control.

This is getting a little silly, but I guess you couldn't op your anchor and argue that you were anchored, but dropping an anchor inside a navigation channel is fraught with its own issue.


----------



## albrazzi

Stumble said:


> Putting the boat in neutral, even turning off the engine, does not make you a vessel 'not under control' it makes you a vessel under control that has chosen to make no way. Unless you have engine and rigging problems that make it impossible to control the vessel then you are still in control.
> 
> This is getting a little silly, but I guess you couldn't op your anchor and argue that you were anchored, but dropping an anchor inside a navigation channel is fraught with its own issue.


Yes I know the rule although I didn't make that clear in my comment. I should have said wont instead of might not. Anyway I wouldn't recommend it.


----------



## Classic30

albrazzi said:


> Good advise but not many of those guys on here.


Actually there may be more here than you realise.. generally the same ones happy to motor through an anchorage at hull-speed.

..not that anyone would own up to doing that of course.. :wink


----------



## smackdaddy

Stumble said:


> "Such legislation (COLREGS) is simply not applicable to private yacht racing in which the participants have voluntarily adopted a different set of rules of the road for application among themselves."


Exactly.

That is the finding I alluded to in the past when we discussed it in the other thread. And, in the context of this thread, it gets really hairy when you have racing and non-racing boats in the same area but not clearly distinguishable - such as the start of an off-shore PHRF race I did a couple of times: the Harvest Moon Regatta. Almost 200 boats of all kinds milling about near a channel marker at the Galveston Jetties...



















...with cruising boats coming up that same channel to head into the Gulf.

A very confusing mix of public and private - COLREGS and RRS.

Anyway, I flogged this one pretty good in the other thread. So I'll let it lie. This thread just reminded me of the other.


----------



## Classic30

smackdaddy said:


> Exactly.
> 
> That is the finding I alluded to in the past when we discussed it in the other thread. And, in the context of this thread, it gets really hairy when you have racing and non-racing boats in the same area but not clearly distinguishable - such as the start of an off-shore PHRF race I did a couple of times: the Harvest Moon Regatta. Almost 200 boats of all kinds milling about near a channel marker at the Galveston Jetties...


Smacky, it's really very simple: whoever yells loudest gets right of way.

I'm sure that's in the COLREGS somewhere, 'cause I have yet to come across a go-fast chunk of plastic that didn't think otherwise.. :wink :laugh


----------



## Stumble

smackdaddy said:


> Exactly.
> 
> That is the finding I alluded to in the past when we discussed it in the other thread. And, in the context of this thread, it gets really hairy when you have racing and non-racing boats in the same area but not clearly distinguishable - such as the start of an off-shore PHRF race I did a couple of times: the Harvest Moon Regatta. Almost 200 boats of all kinds milling about near a channel marker at the Galveston Jetties...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...with cruising boats coming up that same channel to head into the Gulf.
> 
> A very confusing mix of public and private - COLREGS and RRS.
> 
> Anyway, I flogged this one pretty good in the other thread. So I'll let it lie. This thread just reminded me of the other.


This is why for big regattas it worth it to get an exclusion zone set for the racI area. I have done it a few times, and it really makes things easier. Even busy channels can normally be shut down for a couple of hours.

The other option is very distinctive flags for race boats. We have used 6' neon green streamers from the backstay in past races.


----------



## smackdaddy

Stumble said:


> This is why for big regattas it worth it to get an exclusion zone set for the racI area. I have done it a few times, and it really makes things easier. Even busy channels can normally be shut down for a couple of hours.
> 
> The other option is very distinctive flags for race boats. We have used 6' neon green streamers from the backstay in past races.


No way they are going to shut down the Galveston Shipping Channel. Also, though I don't know for sure, I don't think there is an exclusion zone for the race - at least not one that a cruising boat would notice.

We did have flags - but, again, a cruising boat wouldn't have necessarily noticed them.

Anyway, it's a place and a race that's ripe for this kind of conflict.


----------



## senormechanico

Minnewaska said:


> Not so sure that would always work. We had a 44' race boat in the slip next to us in a past marina. It raced every weekend, with a crew of 20 somethings, all in matching crew uniforms.
> 
> One day, they came back into their slip, shortly after we did. My wife said we had a nice sail and asked if they did as well. Their response was to gesture with their index finger like they were pressing a button and said, "that's sailing"?
> 
> Same boat would enter various Rolex sponsored races, which always get a Rolex decal attached to each side of the bow of all entrants. They would leave theirs attached for weeks after the race. You get the picture.


Around here in the PNW, most powerboats that have gone 30 miles North, wear their Canada courtesy flag like a badge of honor.
"LOOK AT ME ! I'VE BEEN TO CANADA ! (whoop de do).
They NEVER take it down. It's almost like getting a South Pacific tattoo.


----------



## Minnewaska

In the OPs example, a motoring sailboat is completely distinct from the racing fleet. Colregs all day long.


----------



## RobGallagher

I like it when they inform you that they are racing, as if it gives them a special privilege. Don't get me wrong, I go out of my way for them, it's just that most of them are jerks.

Why do they choose to race across channels? Last summer, coming into Jamestown I watched a the Pilot boat and harbor master's boat go blaring through a race trying to clear the way for a container ship that was blazing it's horn OBVIOUSLY trying to get out of Narragansett Bay without killing some of them. Yet they really thought they could just keep on.

I wonder if Darwin watched amateur sailboat races as he pondered why the runt of the litter rarely survived?


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Darwin did have a circumnavigation under his belt... so maybe yes


----------



## outbound

On a prior boat was going south cruising with the bride. Wind picked up so decided to tuck into Newport Wind from east so surfing by castle rock in following seas. 
Apparently too windy to race. Got
buzzed on both sides by 2 of the fleet as we were surfing in teens well above hull speed. Both boats looked like fully crewed open racers. Their passing caused waves to break. They scared me and the bride as they didn't appear on the screens and just popped into vision out of the rain. No reason for them to clear us by just a few feet. Especially in those conditions. Yes we cruisers can be rude unnecessarily to racers and this is abhorrent But it's a two way street on occasion.


----------



## RobGallagher

outbound said:


> On a prior boat was going south cruising with the bride. Wind picked up so decided to tuck into Newport Wind from east so surfing by castle rock in following seas.
> Apparently too windy to race. Got
> buzzed on both sides by 2 of the fleet as we were surfing in teens well above hull speed. Both boats looked like fully crewed open racers. Their passing caused waves to break. They scared me and the bride as they didn't appear on the screens and just popped into vision out of the rain. No reason for them to clear us by just a few feet. Especially in those conditions. Yes we cruisers can be rude unnecessarily to racers and this is abhorrent But it's a two way street on occasion.


There is no doubt that the scale of politeness and common courtesy tips towards that of the cruiser. Often, it's not the boat owners but the crew.

On the hard they are even worse. A gaggle of amateur racers act like complete idiots with no respect for others or their property. Wed. night the marina bathrooms are trashed, beer bottles and fast food trash in the parking lot. Then when they get to the bar you would think they just won the Americas Cup.

Every week there are eight people on a crew and only one or two ever working on the boat in the spring and fall.

It's a dream come true for idiots.


----------



## boatpoker

Stumble said:


> When researching legal cases, particularly when reading a district court case, it is critical to see if there was an appeal. In this case there was. JUNO SRL v. ENDEAVOUR | FindLaw Where the district court was over ruled and the original decision tossed.
> 
> "Such legislation (COLREGS) is simply not applicable to private yacht racing in which the participants have voluntarily adopted a different set of rules of the road for application among themselves."
> 
> And
> 
> "In sum, the International Jury found the ENDEAVOR solely responsible for the collision, and it was inappropriate for the district court to have gone beyond this decision in the assignment of fault.   We conclude that the findings of that forum were final and binding on the parties, and we therefore reverse the decision of the district court in that regard."
> 
> And
> 
> "As we have explained, the International Jury found the ENDEAVOUR solely at fault for the collision, and therefore the district court's reduction of the CHARLES JOURDAN's award to $4,000 based on its finding that the CHARLES JOURDAN was 60% at fault was in error.   The district court is ordered to enter judgment in favor of plaintiffs in the amount of $10,000.   Costs are granted in favor of defendant."


So that was between two racing boats. What about a cruising boat in an incident with a racing boat. Surely Colregs supercede race rules in that case.


----------



## Stumble

boatpoker said:


> So that was between two racing boats. What about a cruising boat in an incident with a racing boat. Surely Colregs supercede race rules in that case.


As mentioned, as between boats that are racing the RRS apply, as between a boat racing and one not racing the COLREGS apply. In this case the OP was under power and thus was the give way vessel.


----------



## smackdaddy

But if both boats are sailing, and there is no immediately clear distinction between the racing boat and the cruising boat (like the example I showed above) - there is potential for big problems. Just a matter of time.


----------



## Classic30

smackdaddy said:


> But if both boats are sailing, and there is no immediately clear distinction between the racing boat and the cruising boat (like the example I showed above) - there is potential for big problems. Just a matter of time.


Stumble perhaps forgot to point out that the RRS only really apply to two yachts racing *as part of the same race fleet* under the same Sailing Instructions. Otherwise, how else is someone who is not in the same race to know where the other guy is actually racing to?? Protesting another boat not in your race would be meaningless, if not embarrassing..

AIUI, that's why COLREGS apply in the (vast) majority of cases..


----------



## smackdaddy

Classic30 said:


> Stumble perhaps forgot to point out that the RRS only really apply to two yachts racing *as part of the same race fleet* under the same Sailing Instructions. Otherwise, how else is someone who is not in the same race to know where the other guy is actually racing to??


Bingo.


----------



## Stumble

Classic30 said:


> Stumble perhaps forgot to point out that the RRS only really apply to two yachts racing *as part of the same race fleet* under the same Sailing Instructions. Otherwise, how else is someone who is not in the same race to know where the other guy is actually racing to?? Protesting another boat not in your race would be meaningless, if not embarrassing..
> 
> AIUI, that's why COLREGS apply in the (vast) majority of cases..


If two boats are racing, but in different races they are still bound by the RRS as to each other. But they had better be sure that each other are racing before taking the liberties allowed under the RRS.

Theoretically if you happen to be doing a bouy race and cross the Transpac course the mixed fleet are all bound by the RRS as to each other. Again this is why you get permits for races from the Coast Guard, to minimize the likelyhood that race courses will overlap.


----------



## Classic30

Stumble said:


> If two boats are racing, but in different races they are still bound by the RRS as to each other. But they had better be sure that each other are racing before taking the liberties allowed under the RRS.
> 
> Theoretically if you happen to be doing a bouy race and cross the Transpac course the mixed fleet are all bound by the RRS as to each other. Again this is why you get permits for races from the Coast Guard, to minimize the likelyhood that race courses will overlap.


Well, by nature of the bay around which our races are held, quite often we find ourselves racing around the same marks as another fleet (or two! ..or three!!).

It's a right PITA and, if at all possible, one or other Race Committee do try to put down another mark (a temporary one) close by the original, mainly to avoid folks getting caught up in another fleet and sailing the wrong course (leading to an inevitable "DSQ - thanks for coming") rather than collisions per se. ..but, no question, it does get ugly out there and invoking RRS and multi-club Protest Committees doesn't help anyone. The scariest is when our fleet crosses a small dinghy fleet, 'cause any collision with one of them will likely result in some poor inexperienced kid being seriously injured - in fact, a yacht like "_Acrospire III_" could mow down half of a dinghy fleet on the wrong tack without even slowing down.

Believe me, it's fair easier for the Sailing Instructions to state that all other vessels not indicated on the race entry sheet are to be treated as 'obstructions' under COLREGS ..and go enjoy the day out there.


----------



## sproatlake

MacBlaze said:


> Disclaimer: I don't race, know next to nothing about it...
> 
> We were approaching Baynes Channel and Cardboro Point south of Sidney on Saturday under power and we noticed about 10 or 15 sailboats headed towards us with spinnakers flying. I figured we were about to motor straight into a regatta or race out of Cadboro Bay. It looked like they were using the V29 lateral buoy off Johnstone reef as their turn point and sure enough, just as we passed it about 100 meters away, three boats doused their spinnakers and came racing around the marker pretty much on a collision course with us.
> 
> I really had no idea what the etiquette was in these situations other than the knowledge they had the right of way - and that I didn't want to ruin anyone's race. So I went hard to starboard and pointed at the stern of the last of three boats and watched them cross my bow meters away. Then we turned back onto our original course and continued to dodge the rest of the oncoming boats that hadn't made the turn yet. One of the original three decided to short tack and they came screaming back across our stern, the sides covered in rail meat. They tacked back and forth generally on our course off our stern and as they turned into Baynes channel they weren't that far behind us. Just goes to show sailing in good wind can be faster than motoring.
> 
> I altered course one more time as I turned into Baynes Channel and slowed down to allow the first two boats who were again on a collision course to slip through ahead of us. After that there was plenty of room in the Channel and we were passed by one more boat before we took off to wards Trial Island and they all head back to Oak Bay.
> 
> Essentially I motored right through the middle of their race course, but I am pretty sure it wasn't' an "official" race and really, there was nothing else I could do unless I was willing to head back out into Haro Strait and go around Discovery Islands. I am pretty sure I didn't screw with anyone's race although I may have made a skipper a bit more nervous than usual.
> 
> Did I do enough? Did I do too much?


We were in the last boat (not my boat), if I remember correctly. We just came out of Oak bay and saw a race and thought hey, let's jump in on that on the tail end. Anyways, screw it. If it wasn't official before, it was after we joined in and started passing "racers"

Those guys aren't serious enough to get choked at people getting in their way, most of the time. And yeah. If they don't have to switch course, and they change to put you in danger, that's still on them, although I wouldn't want to test it. Battles of egos are rarely won by anyone.


----------



## RobGallagher

So when you are under power, skirting the edge of a channel to give the racers as much room as you can and the stand on vessel tacks right back at you, you change course to avoid collision and the next stand on vessel tacks just because the other guy did, so you change course again only to have the slackers from the last leg come at you do you get to shoot at anyone with a flare gun?

When you are under sail as the stand on vessel and 10 idiotboats come barreling at you as the give way vessels, so you put down your glass of wine, wedge the plate of cheese and crackers on the cockpit floor and try to head up to give them a bit more room, then they start berating you because they seem to think they are in the Vendee Globe, do you get to shoot at them with a flare gun?

Are there bonus points if they are wearing matching outfits?

I took the 6 pack class, but all I remember is 'new reels catch fish so purchase some sam adams' or something like that...


----------



## Ninefingers

RobGallagher said:


> So when you are under power, skirting the edge of a channel to give the racers as much room as you can and the stand on vessel tacks right back at you, you change course to avoid collision and the next stand on vessel tacks just because the other guy did, so you change course again only to have the slackers from the last leg come at you do you get to shoot at anyone with a flare gun?
> 
> When you are under sail as the stand on vessel and 10 idiotboats come barreling at you as the give way vessels, so you put down your glass of wine, wedge the plate of cheese and crackers on the cockpit floor and try to head up to give them a bit more room, then they start berating you because they seem to think they are in the Vendee Globe, do you get to shoot at them with a flare gun?
> 
> Are there bonus points if they are wearing matching outfits?
> 
> I took the 6 pack class, but all I remember is 'new reels catch fish so purchase some sam adams' or something like that...


They are everywhere like wasps on some days here. I have had to do 360's motoring out of the marina to avoid 50 Albacores using the channel as there personal space. Getting even one of them to stand on is impossible. And then there is the larger race boats that have on one occasion, used the marina entrance marker. I had to sit there for 5 minutes waiting to enter. I've met a lot of racers, and I don't like to generalize...but I haven't liked many of them.


----------



## ad28

Is there some reason, Hanuman, that you couldn't just stop for a minute or two and let these guys just pass?



The worst damage I've ever suffered in 30 years of sailing and racing was from a "spectator/cruiser" who was obviously ignorant. Ignorant of good anchoring procedure, ignorant how to handle his boat once he was adrift (the dumb SOB was TAKING UP chain, not paying it), and too ignorant to just let his boat soft ground... instead he insisted on getting in front of my boat which was tied to a bulkhead and the SOB didn't have the brains to tie himself to the bulkhead, and his bow swung round and caused 5 digits in damage to my boat.

Of course the SOB "cruiser" was not only NOT insured, the boat hasn't been redocumented since 2009, and the boat is apparently not registered in the state in which the SOB lives nor in the state in which the SOB keeps his boat.

Give me an insured, experienced racer any day of the week, thank you.


----------



## Stumble

Classic30 said:


> Well, by nature of the bay around which our races are held, quite often we find ourselves racing around the same marks as another fleet (or two! ..or three!!).
> 
> It's a right PITA and, if at all possible, one or other Race Committee do try to put down another mark (a temporary one) close by the original, mainly to avoid folks getting caught up in another fleet and sailing the wrong course (leading to an inevitable "DSQ - thanks for coming") rather than collisions per se. ..but, no question, it does get ugly out there and invoking RRS and multi-club Protest Committees doesn't help anyone. The scariest is when our fleet crosses a small dinghy fleet, 'cause any collision with one of them will likely result in some poor inexperienced kid being seriously injured - in fact, a yacht like "_Acrospire III_" could mow down half of a dinghy fleet on the wrong tack without even slowing down.
> 
> Believe me, it's fair easier for the Sailing Instructions to state that all other vessels not indicated on the race entry sheet are to be treated as 'obstructions' under COLREGS ..and go enjoy the day out there.


You probably do, but this is one of those places where yacht club coordination can play a big part. Along with SI's that change the rules to seperate the fleets. But the other option would be to drop some private marks. We have two mark circles within three miles of each other to allow for PHRF, OD, Collegate, and opti racing all at the same time. With all of the club's sharing responsibility for the marks.

Personally I have seen both racers and cruisers that are ass holes, and I have seen both that are incredibly friendly. I don't think which you are doing is particularly predictive. I have seen racers hit non-racers intentionally to drive them off the course, and I have seen cruisers sit at the windward mark in the middle of a North American's flagging their sails to watch the mark roundings.

At least in the latter we were able to call the USCG and have them forcibly evicted from the area, but man did I get yelled at for that later by the spectator.


----------



## RobGallagher

ad28 said:


> Is there some reason, Hanuman, that you couldn't just stop for a minute or two and let these guys just pass?
> 
> The worst damage I've ever suffered in 30 years of sailing and racing was from a "spectator/cruiser" who was obviously ignorant. Ignorant of good anchoring procedure, ignorant how to handle his boat once he was adrift (the dumb SOB was TAKING UP chain, not paying it), and too ignorant to just let his boat soft ground... instead he insisted on getting in front of my boat which was tied to a bulkhead and the SOB didn't have the brains to tie himself to the bulkhead, and his bow swung round and caused 5 digits in damage to my boat.
> 
> Of course the SOB "cruiser" was not only NOT insured, the boat hasn't been redocumented since 2009, and the boat is apparently not registered in the state in which the SOB lives nor in the state in which the SOB keeps his boat.
> 
> Give me an insured, experienced racer any day of the week, thank you.


I let them pass all the time. I consistently go out of my way to go around them. I let them raft up to me at the end of the dock so crew can get aboard. I've even towed some of the engineless idiots home. When I go out for a Wednesday evening sail I stay as far away as possible from the anal knots.

They, on the other hand, don't seem to give a ****e about anyone or anything else.

Did you win the tied to the bulkhead race?


----------



## Classic30

RobGallagher said:


> ..... They, on the other hand, don't seem to give a ****e about anyone or anything else. ......


This discussion brings back memories.. This incident happened over on this side of the world, so you guys might not have heard about it. It's directly relevant to this discussion (particularly the 'idiot' parts) and does show what can happen when you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, through no fault of your own.

Sailor feared for life before horror harbour smash - National - NZ Herald News

I know the victims (and their yacht) and still feel their pain after all these years. They are back on the water now sailing again, but neither they, nor the boat, nor the CYANZ, nor the RNZYS, nor anyone else remotely associated with the Auckland yachting scene is ever likely to forget the day an idiot and his plastic battering ram were allowed out on the Waitemata..

PLEASE be careful out there folks!!!


----------



## fallard

We probably all have stories about inconsiderate racers. There is one elderly racer in our area who is very competitive--but very aggressive. I have had a few instances where he failed to yield to me when his was the burdened vessel. It appeared that he was playing "chicken"--and we weren't racing at either of the times I observed this behavior. At the last moment, I had to take action to avoid a collision and there was no indication he cared. Rather, I thought he was smug in staring me down. 

Another incident involved a local yacht club during practice with a small fleet of one designs. I crossed their path as the stand on vessel, noting that the lead boat crew had their eyes on me. However, they struck a glancing blow to the tail cone on my inflatable without appearing to make any kind of evasive maneuver. Not a word was said to me, and we were certainly close enough! It was as if there was no damage, so no problem. 

There are more incidents in my decades of sailing, but these two are examples of the irresponsible attitudes of some of the racing class.


----------



## Classic30

fallard said:


> There are more incidents in my decades of sailing, but these two are examples of the irresponsible attitudes of some of the racing class.


FWIW, I also have seen many more incidents in my decades of sailing. My post above deals with but one example of the irresponsible attitudes of some of the *cruising* class... especially the expensive-plastic cruising class.


----------



## boatpoker

LO300, 2-3 day non-stop race around Lake Ontario .... 150 boats, 300 dock carts full of booze.


----------



## RobGallagher

Classic30 said:


> FWIW, I also have seen many more incidents in my decades of sailing. My post above deals with but one example of the irresponsible attitudes of some of the *cruising* class... especially the expensive-plastic cruising class.


No doubt there are idiots out there in all classes of boating. As well as responsible boaters.

There is that element of amateur racing that expect special privileges, yet yield nothing.

How do they manage to park so that one car can block in three others? How do they instinctively know to block in vehicles that don't belong to other racers?

I've seen them, they don't put any thought into it, they just speed in at the last minute, throw their McDonalds bag on the ground and run to the boat empty handed. Well, sometimes they stop and piss on the floor in the men's room, but they don't seem look around to see who they are blocking in. It all just falls into place.


----------



## outbound

Used to race both PHRF and the Bermuda of that year. Now pure cruiser. Also used to hunt. Think best advice is to modify your behavior in attempt to avoid conflict. Like not hike during hunting season. Or if you do hike hike where there's no hunting.
For instance pay attention to race schedules. Leave/return from cruises on non race days. Locally use west not east passage and avoid Newport when races going on. Choose destinations to not coincide with regattas. Lowers stress. Also take the same attitude as you do with small powerboats. Assume they don't know colregs and if the do won't follow them.

Would note have taken to getting the iPad out when it looks like there's a risk of stupidity in the air. Seems pointing it at them even if not recording video improves behavior dramatically. Also snaps of license plates in the parking lot has made some get out of their cars and pick up the garbage they just threw down. All non verbal, non confrontational but sometimes effective.


----------



## boatpoker

RobGallagher said:


> I've seen them, they don't put any thought into it, they just speed in at the last minute, throw their McDonalds bag on the ground and run to the boat empty handed. Well, sometimes they stop and piss on the floor in the men's room, but they don't seem look around to see who they are blocking in. It all just falls into place.


My wife and I don't use the club washrooms during regattas', our stomachs are just not strong enough.


----------



## rbrasi

Conversely, is it poor etiquette for a sailboat to scare the crap out of non-sailing boats with a close approach? For example: the channel in Marina Del Rey has a clearly marked non-sail area for motoring boats (sailboats under motor power included) to pass through on either side without interfering with races that often take place in between. While tacking through the sail-only area, more often than not, there are boats on their way out and in direct line with my approach. If I go right up to the non-sail boundary before tacking while the boaters in my path wet themselves, does that make me a dick? I can't assume everyone understands that I am going to remain inside my boundary, right? I sometimes call out to them, but other times I just go.


----------



## RobGallagher

rbrasi said:


> Conversely, is it poor etiquette for a sailboat to scare the crap out of non-sailing boats with a close approach? For example: the channel in Marina Del Rey has a clearly marked non-sail area for motoring boats (sailboats under motor power included) to pass through on either side without interfering with races that often take place in between. While tacking through the sail-only area, more often than not, there are boats on their way out and in direct line with my approach. If I go right up to the non-sail boundary before tacking while the boaters in my path wet themselves, does that make me a dick? I can't assume everyone understands that I am going to remain inside my boundary, right? I sometimes call out to them, but other times I just go.


Poor etiquette, yes? Why scare people if you don't have to 

However, if you are under sail alone you remain the stand on vessel. If you are on a collision course the powerboat should have altered course or speed to avoid possible collision. Regardless of the imaginary line, in theory, there should be no close calls. Rule 8 is pretty clear that if something should happen you would bear some part of the responsibility.

I doubt local rules supersede ColRegs when it comes to the powerboat altering course and/or speed to get out of that collision course.

So in theory, there should not be a close call.

Let's just do a what if... the powerboats steering cable broke and prop wash turned his boat hard abeam into you as you came up to him to tack. The collision would be almost as much your fault as his. You knowingly broke Rule 8.

What if he had to make an evasive maneuver to avoid another vessel that cuts across his bow as he is being overtaken? What if that vessel is a small powerboat filled with orphans, puppies and a case of 23 yr old Pappy Van Winkle? You knowing broke Rule 8.


----------



## Scotty C-M

I like what my Dad told be (about 50 years ago), just stay out of everybody's way. 

Racing, keep away from everybody except racers. Cruisers, keep away unless your options are limited (like shallow water, etc.). Follow COLREGS - including Rule 8, so that you don't confuse people. But that also includes a wide latitude of options. Make your course changes earlly and clearly so that everybody knows what your intent is. Most of us, most of the time, do just fine. Racers and Cruisers (and Fishermen and Comercial) alike. Think of the thousands of boats we pass each year, and the small handfull that cause issues. Be kind and, well ... like my Dad said, just stay out of other people's way.


----------



## davidpm

I've been known to nope out on occasion.

That is to do a 180 degree turn for a few minutes.

it is amazing how just being where you were 5 minutes ago makes it so much easier to figure out what to do.

it is not a maneuver that comes to mind naturally but is very effective in some situations.


----------



## JamesGrant0

Thanks for sharing your experience.


----------



## Classic30

Scotty C-M said:


> I like what my Dad told be (about 50 years ago), just stay out of everybody's way.
> 
> Racing, keep away from everybody except racers. Cruisers, keep away unless your options are limited (like shallow water, etc.). Follow COLREGS - including Rule 8, so that you don't confuse people. But that also includes a wide latitude of options. Make your course changes earlly and clearly so that everybody knows what your intent is. Most of us, most of the time, do just fine. Racers and Cruisers (and Fishermen and Comercial) alike. Think of the thousands of boats we pass each year, and the small handfull that cause issues. Be kind and, well ... like my Dad said, just stay out of other people's way.


Well, FWIW, I never have (and don't intend to) keep out of the way of Jetskis and other "Personal Water Craft".

These menaces to shipping seem to insist on 'buzzing' us whilst racing and are low in the water and aren't something you tend to spot easily whilst keeping your eye on the guy coming through on starboard... and judging their speed is impossible. We've even had a canoeist hanging off a turning mark during a race.. fortunately I didn't run over the idiot, but I'm told I came mighty close!

Yessiree, it can be nuts out there.. say safe everyone.


----------



## miatapaul

smackdaddy said:


> No way they are going to shut down the Galveston Shipping Channel. Also, though I don't know for sure, I don't think there is an exclusion zone for the race - at least not one that a cruising boat would notice.
> 
> We did have flags - but, again, a cruising boat wouldn't have necessarily noticed them.
> 
> Anyway, it's a place and a race that's ripe for this kind of conflict.


But the cruising boat would not have to notice it at all, they just follow color regs, as they have not "opted out" it is up to the racer to know who is racing or not, and avoid those not. (assuming the rules of the water are followed otherwise)


----------



## jackdale

Stumble said:


> This is why for big regattas it worth it to get an exclusion zone set for the racI area. I have done it a few times, and it really makes things easier. Even busy channels can normally be shut down for a couple of hours.
> 
> The other option is very distinctive flags for race boats. We have used 6' neon green streamers from the backstay in past races.


Really? The TSS in Juan de Fuca is not shut down for Swiftsure, the Vic-Maui or the Van Isle 360.


----------

