# What is an "old shoe"?



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Having received countless pm's asking me what is an "Old Shoe", and tired of explaining, here is the definition&#8230;.read it carefully, will not write it again..










The Old Shoe:

Characterized as the only sail boats (?) whose apparent wind moves aft with increase in boat speed, (because they sail backwards), the Old Shoe - that may come in recently newly made hulls - (hence not necessarily built in 1342), as some Yacht builders found a niche market for them, especially among Sailnet members, the Old Shoe has, normally a displacement with more zeros than Bill Gate's bank account. Who cares?? They weren't made for sailing anyway..

Everyone knows if you don't own an Old Shoe ..you're not a sailor - especially here at Sailnet - &#8230;and every Old Shoe owner, is given, upon buying it, a complete guide with terms, pre made wording and sentences on how to trash "plastic", Tupperware" and other glass boats (note: Old Shoe owners normally forget their boats are plastic too, but that's another story), in public forums..

At the end of the "Hate a real sailboat guide" book provided, is a list of words like Beneteau, J boats, Catalinas, Dufour, Hunter, Dehler, etc.. (real sailboats designed to propel themselves by wind)&#8230;that any Old Shoe owner must trash at least 52 times a year in public forums, live aboard marinas, lake sailing clubs and other sailing dedicated places such as Wal-Mart, West marine, and the Bronx Zoo.

That gives them points, provided by the Old Shoe Owners Society, (a group of hard core sailors from Arizona), that can be converted to true sailing items such as BBQ's, microwaves, bow thrusters, and 3 inch thick windows&#8230;

Back to the Old Shoe,

Because of the displacement, normally over 22.000lbs, for a 32 foot boat, the Old Shoe needs extremely exaggerated Head sails, (the more the better, looks "chique", so often have 2 or 3 head sails), that in turn prevent the boat from sailing anyway..

The Old Shoe, is normally a good power boat, as it does not move in winds bellow 15 knots, and above 20 it's already over canvassed, so bellow 15 needs a diesel, above 20, needs a diesel&#8230;

The Old Shoe sails very well at 3 knots boat speed in 18 knots true, with the sails fully reefed&#8230;ahh&#8230;true sailing&#8230;everyone knows a sailor without a reef is not a sailor ..hence the Old Shoe has at least 3 reefing points ..most for looks, as above 20 knots, the Old Shoe owner is already motoring, but hey ..good conversation subject ..Especially here.

The Old Shoe, is not an Old Shoe without a (preferably wooden) Cutty Sark type bow Sprit, with at least 3 anchors, and preferably with lot of 1800's style wood work, and complicated engravings&#8230;.the hull, normally, comes in 10 inch thick fiberglass, because composite technology didn't arrive to all corners of the World, and in the old days, manufacturers didn't have materials and technology to design light solutions, so they had no other option that to spend week after week laying fiberglass over fiberglass, until a good one foot thickness was achieved ..ahh everyone knows a thick hull is good&#8230;not for sailing but for everything else ..almost forgot&#8230;if the hull imitates the hull planks ..then we're golden&#8230;.I love those 70's fake wood station wagons anyway&#8230;(remember them?)

The Old Shoe, can not be an Old Shoe without a full keel, preferably 5 feet thick, in case one hits a whale, and a rudder behind all that ..because everyone knows sunk containers are sneaky&#8230;and target rudders&#8230;problem is&#8230;weight ..but who cares?? a respectable Old Shoe has at least 8 to 15.000lbs ballast, because everyone knows that in a storm, That is what saves lives.

However, because of the keel, the boat doesn't sail, but who cares ..the Old Shoe has big powerful Diesel engines anyway.

The Old Shoe is easily recognized by the small thick one diameter mast, (no wonder, the keel is just for looks and to be used as an anti whale weapon), and a small main, only because if they didn't have one, everyone would look at them and say: "That's not a sailboat".. so ..a small preferably roller furler main is a must, it looks good too..

The Old Shoe is ideal for Oceanic passages especially for people with a lot (and here, I mean a lot) of time, as everyone knows, an Atlantic crossing of 24 days in a sailboat, is normally done in 60 on an Old Shoe ..but hey!!! We are protected against a storm..

Ideal to live aboard, and to sail (motor) up and down the ICW, the Old Shoe is the favorite boat here at Sailnet..(Sailnet is thinking about changing name to Old Shoenet)&#8230;and start selling Martha Stewart and Home Depot catalogue stuff instead&#8230;.

Inside....ahh inside the old shoe breaths sailing atmosphere, has to..with all that sailing performance wood........ the Old Shoe is clearly a "house", most don't sail anyway, and have lots of paintings, oil lamps, books, sailing memorabilia, from the days of sailing, more books, ovens, heaters, dishwashers, washing machines, rats, snakes, etc&#8230;all clearly needed sailing stuff.&#8230;

they have lots and lots of little doors and panels, all in 4 inch thick solid wood off course, that are called storage space&#8230;big diesel tanks too&#8230;since that is the main locomotion agent&#8230;
They have 345 hand rails, and safe bronze 10 inch thick robust windows.

The bunks are small (everyone knows small means safer), because they have no space to put beds with all the crap they load the boats with..but hey, small beds are seamanship features&#8230;

The Old shoe is normally richly ornamented with hand carved wood panels that enhance the boat's sailing qualities... and reduce the noise caused by the engine, when sailing.

There is more, but normally, the Old Shoe is a non sailing sailing boat ..does it make sense??

Remember....many companies today still manufacture the Old Shoe, but nothing better than a 1945 Old Shoe&#8230;ahh nothing like sailing at 2 knots in a 30 knots wind..the older the shoe..the better.

They are excellent to cross oceans, and resist storms, but sailing&#8230;..well..we leave sailing to the plastic fantastics&#8230;

No particular boats aimed in this description&#8230;if you have an Old Shoe, good for you&#8230;me?? I rather sail.

*EDIT for the weak hearts:*

*OLD SHOE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BOAT AGE...IT's THE STYLE AND TYPE OF BOAT...OK???*

you can have an old (as in aged) boat that is not an Old Shoe, and you can have an Old Shoe, built in 2008. get it?

.


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## Insails (Sep 6, 2006)

This is a shoe...









Hahahaha


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hey..I just saw a website for a company that sells new Old Shoes, check this out..

Boat lenght 47 feet, LWL 35 feet    

Displacement 24.000lbs !!!!!!!!   9000lbs alone for ballast  :laugher :laugher :laugher and they claim it's only half load

Engine > 70 HP!!!!:laugher :laugher :laugher 

main sail 350 sq feet:laugher :laugher :laugher 
Head sail 600 sq feet:laugher :laugher :laugher 



I wonder sometimes....I really do..who are they aiming at??? not sailors for sure....how can THAT sail??? has a draft of 5 feet!!:laugher :laugher

How can people sail with this?? Surely it's not sailing..it's floating around with the sails up...but maybe that is sailing..may be I am the one that's wrong

24.000lbs displacement..Good Lord...


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## Insails (Sep 6, 2006)

How can people sail with this??

when hurricane warnings are up)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Insails said:


> How can people sail with this??
> 
> when hurricane warnings are up)


That's where you're wrong..

they don't...they are too heavy, no draft, too much sail for the draft..they just bob around...float around with drogues...

besides, most don't even sail...as you know...why?? sailing is so frustrating they quit....

I would never cross the ocean in an Old Shoe...I tell you that right away...but...wouldn't cross it on my boat either...not that it wouldn't make it..just that I couldn't stay awake for 20 days...:laugher :laugher

Val once said, my boat would cross the Atlantic all right..but the crew would arrive in NY as if they kicked Mike Tyson in the but...:laugher :laugher


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

OSOS
Old Shoe Owners Society
Very nice.

One error in your disertation. A true old shoe sailboat owner would frown at in mast furling. Much prefer slab reefing with an old fashioned cover.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

This will be an interesting thread.

Giu, your boat is fast and light and minimilist and all those other modern concepts. It is also predominantly intended to sail/race not too far from home.

Most cruising boats get realistically close to your definition of an "Old Shoe" and given that many members are cruisers, your definition will have a few people wondering.

I would really wonder how well your beautiful vessel would deal with 45 ft seas and 75 knots winds (at the same time  ). I wonder whether your family would feel safe.

I know mine do. (44ft, 41ft, 24000lbs, 7000lbs, 44hp, 5ft draft, does an easy 135 miles a day, strong like hell, space to burn).


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Those old shoes don't have any trouble mounting a forty pound radar scanner on the mast where it belongs without upsetting the delicate balance of the boat now do they? We of sailnet will watch with interest as the lovely boat _Giulietta_ gains weight and loses some of her zip in preparation for her oceanic adventures ahead. The mere thought of a restless Portagee worried about windage aft from his new mizzen warms the winter beset heart.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Omatako said:


> I would really wonder how well your beautiful vessel would deal with 45 ft seas and 75 knots winds (at the same time  ). I wonder whether your family would feel safe.


Not any better or worse than yours would...both sink...



Omatako said:


> This will be an interesting thread.
> 
> Giu, your boat is fast and light and minimilist and all those other modern concepts. It is also predominantly intended to sail/race not too far from home.
> 
> .


EEEEEEXACTLY....as you say..intended to sail...



Omatako said:


> Most cruising boats get realistically close to your definition of an "Old Shoe" and given that many members are cruisers, your definition will have a few people wondering.


Not really...



Omatako said:


> I know mine do. (44ft, 41ft, 24000lbs, 7000lbs, 44hp, 5ft draft, does an easy 135 miles a day, strong like hell, space to burn).


that's moving along at 5 knots.

and you would be amazed if I told you..I bet I have almost the double of the space you have...at 14 feet beam...3 cabins all king size, U sallon and get this...under same conditions...230 Miles a day..all sailing with no engine


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> Those old shoes don't have any trouble mounting a forty pound radar scanner on the mast where it belongs without upsetting the delicate balance of the boat now do they? We of sailnet will watch with interest as the lovely boat _Giulietta_ gains weight and loses some of her zip in preparation for her oceanic adventures ahead. The mere thought of a restless Portagee worried about windage aft from his new mizzen warms the winter beset heart.


Sway...really...stick to the Politics and leave the sailing threads alone...you commenting on sailing is like me commenbting on politics...really

Who said it upsets the balance??


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Sway...really...stick to the Politics and leave the sailing threads alone...you commenting on sailing is like me commenbting on politics...really
> 
> Who said it upsets the balance??


You did. "All that weight aloft."


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> You did. "All that weight aloft."


BEATCH!!!!    

I did...didn't I???  

But I didn't say balance...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I did that post in jest, but there is a hint of truth in it....sometimes I see some of these boats, and I wonder..really...the last thing they do is sail..really...how can they?

Now..in case one wonders what boat I would cruise or sail around the World??

Halber and Najad..nothing else. Because they have the insides of the Old Shoes, with less weight, much better engineering, and are actually sailboats...

No sprits, no nonsense wood decors..true pure ocean crossers...by sail..


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Yeah, you did. (g) And it won't be long either before you're complaining about that windage aft from that mast you're installing. CAMARADERIE!!!! Call for you on Line 2!!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

REMOVABLE ( that's the word I said and you pretend to ignore)....remember?


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I would love to have an H-R or maybe a Hinkley. Swan perhaps?
But I can't come near the price those command.
Perhaps what alex really wants is for us that cannot afford the latest, most expensive yacht money can buy, to just stay the F off the ocean. Sorry to clutter up your view with my garbage scow. Please let me kiss your @ss too.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

So you remove it while sailing, eh?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Xort..sorry...you missed the point...

that is not what I meant...but ok.

and since you bring the cost thing up...for the money some spend on these old shoes..any good sailboat could be bought


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Here's my Old Shoe,
 LOA: 27'Beam: 8'0"Displacement: 8000 lbsDraft: 3'10"Ballast: 3000 lbs 
sailing into the marina at Ixtapa, Mexico because I ran out of fuel in my big (8HP) diesel.










She's loaded down with extra gear and sitting heavy in the water.

Miserable sailing little vessel as you can see by the video taken by Ray on our buddy boat Arcturas.

In all seriousness, "Jenny Lee" isn't going to win any races but she's still a handy little boat and I can single hand her without a second thought. She brought my wife and I a long way through some pretty nasty sh!t a few times. Times when our prayer life was at it's strongest. 

Personally, it's not really all about the destination for me. I've actually got to be going pretty darn slow before I tire of sailing and feel a desire to start the engine.

Boats like "Giulietta" fill a need and the old shoes fill another. 
It's all about one's objective and personal preference.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Here is my old shoe, 36 ft across the deck, long-keeled, and weighing about 10.5 tonf....

Image of Crinan Canal Summer 2007 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Image of downwind on Loch Ness, July 2008 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

... took me the whole way from Houston to Scotland.

The waves can get very big in the North Atlantic and Old Shoes have their uses.

Not so fast in light airs. Yes, on a summer's day, the light, deep finned, rocket-ships ghost past me, invariably faster, and pointing higher.

But you wait for the big seas.... it is different then.... for me, it's weight and long keel every time.

To each his own. I'll have mine.

Rockter.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Very pretty area there Rock. 
I liked the picture of the horsehead nebula too.










* Loch Ness, Summer 2007... at peace with the world *


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Different boats to different purposes. This _shouldn't_ be a difficult concept to understand nor require continuous debate. Self-validation is tedious.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

A brand new, old shoe recently build in Maine. I would be proud to own her.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

funny...

As one can read in my posts here, I didn't aim at anyone or anyboat in particular, yet..the "defense" and "defensive posts" on pretty much all the subsequent posts, either mentioned my boat by name or indirectly...funny how it works here...

With this thread, that I made to have fun, with a reality, I was simply using my power, like you all above do, of free speech and gave my opinion on something I thought about...I was not preaching or trying to convince anyone of anything...unlike the healthy "fight back"...

I was and am not campaigning, nor trying to convince anyone..just simply wrote my opinion, (wrong or right as it may be), like you guys have yours, and have provided yours.....

So, please, since I aim at no one in particular, please leave my "fat", "plastic fantastic".."coastal" "fin keel death trap" alone..

You agree with me, fine, move one...yoiu don't agree..fine also, I love a good debate, BUT please..let's leave the "targeting" on the side...

I wrote this so we could have a healthy "fight"...not as a personal fight...

Let's keep it general...its much more civilized...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> A brand new, old shoe recently build in Maine. I would be proud to own her.


Mike, as you know very well, that is not an old shoe, that is a classic designed sailboat, built to original spec...I bet, hands down, that boat can sail circles around any old shoe...that boat serves pretty much the same purpose as mine...sail

Now...I am not targeting any boat in particular, and if I am I am not saying...


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

You know I just poking fun back!!!!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Hey, everybody calls my boat a fin keel death trap. I thought they were referring to my sailing style (which is a euphemism for sailing ability)! (g)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

By the way..the Old shoe has little to do with the boat's age or year...so if you are offended beacuse you think I said your boat id old..go cry somewhere else..

Several companies today are still spitting out old shoes as we speak...it's a fashion...

The old shoe is not related to the age of the boat..but rather the type and style..

I have nothing agains old boats...on the contrary...

I like Dragons, Stars, 470's, old Beneteaus, etc... all from the 30's and 70's...


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> By the way..the Old shoe has little to do with the boat's age or year...so if you are offended beacuse you think I said your boat id old..go cry somewhere else..
> 
> Several companies today are still spitting out old shoes as we speak...it's a fashion...
> 
> ...


But what you really want is a Cal 21' that you can sail in the winter, right?

(btw, we've got a fleet of Stars on Gull Lake that is part of their midwest racing fleet.)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Sway..that maybe old..as in age..but not an Old Shoe...


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

So Alex what is there you don't like about the old walk over 41' Morgan's other than they flex, have lots of leeway, to heavy for their waterline and can't sail to weather?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

just edited the original post, added an edit in the end...good thing they cancelled the bad rep things..


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Come on Giu, fess up, I realize your head has gotten as big as the a$$ end of your boat, but isn't the real reason you belittle heavy displacement boats and the people that sail them is to make up for some other short comings you have.


I mean gezz man, this fixation over HD boats and your constaint bolstering of your sailing prowlness and how fast your boat is sounds like a bad case of littledickitis.

You want to sail your Hi-tech plastic bottle from A-B as fast as you can........sh*t have at it, that's why you have it

But making up for your short fall by bashing heavy displacement boats ?? come on, they're two totally different niches, and some people like to enjoy whats between point A & B


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

I kinna like this.

A C-130 was lumbering along when a cocky F-16 flashed by. 
The jet jockey decided to show off. 











The fighter jock told the C-130 pilot, 'watch this!' and promptly went into a barrel roll followed by a steep climb. He then finished with a sonic boom as he broke the sound barrier. The F-16 pilot then asked the C-130 pilot what he thought of that? 










The C-130 pilot said, 'That was impressive, but watch this!' 
The C-130 droned along for about 5 minutes and then the C-130 pilot came back on and said: 'What did you think of that?' 
Puzzled, the F-16 pilot asked, 'What the heck did you do?' I didn't see anything. 
The C-130 pilot chuckled. 'I stood up, stretched my legs, walked to the back, took a leak,then I got a cup of coffee and a cinnamon bun.' 

When you are young and foolish, speed and flash may seem a good thing. When you get older and smarter, comfort and dull is not such a bad thing!


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Pretty haughty stuff Alex for a guy sailing a Laser on steroids. If I could set up some reefing points on my Lightning 19' I might be able to keep up with you with a professional crew. Enjoy yourself, it's later then you think. 
All boats are compromises as you know but I still feel comfortable in my old shoes and sailboat from 1967 (IOR design). I can't keep up with your speed but I don't want to so enjoy yourself while you are surfing down a wave and you get rounded up and pooped. The same can happen to me but I am not the one bragging about my stinky old sailing boat that can't keep up with yours.
I know you were not really trying to pizz off all the Huntabenelina owners into a pizzing match (or were you?). You do seem to like to 'stir the pot' so can you cook as well? 
Do you also play golf on top of being a 'salesman' and daddy? 
Thanks for playing. You are a bit over the top my man.
Best regards,
Caleb
NYC


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Alex, 
Definitely no roller furler main for old shoe. They need 3 or 4 deep reefs on the main.
Also I think it makes no sense talking about apparent wind. Apparent wind or true wind - they are the same on an old shoe.
Perhaps we should introduce the term "apparent speed" or "apparent movement". That is the feeling one have on an old shoe when other sailboats are passing by and one starts to believe the old shoe is actually moving.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CalebD said:


> You do seem to like to 'stir the pot' so can you cook as well?


Looks like you understood it..which is nice..

That is al this is. But, at the same time, lets one see the true core of some here...which is also fine.

By the way..I don't play golf, and am not a salesman, and defenately not bragging about my boat..go read again and see who bragged.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

timebandit said:


> When you are young and foolish, speed and flash may seem a good thing. When you get older and smarter, comfort and dull is not such a bad thing!


Nice story. It's not exactly applicable, but a nice read. Thanks.

Now, for your comment..

I am not exactly young and foolish..I was..well..maybe a little foolish...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

poopdeckpappy said:


> Come on Giu, fess up, I realize your head has gotten as big as the a$$ end of your boat, but isn't the real reason you belittle heavy displacement boats and the people that sail them is to make up for some other short comings you have.
> 
> I mean gezz man, this fixation over HD boats and your constaint bolstering of your sailing prowlness and how fast your boat is sounds like a bad case of littledickitis.
> 
> ...


Nice PDP, that was nice..of all people here, you were unable to read between the lines. (I thought you knew me better)..

It's nice to see your reaction..actually, it's quite disapointing, really..all that coming from you.

Nice un-necessary attack, proving nothing, other than anger and hate..do you really think I care what people sail and chose to buy as a boat?? Do you really think I care how fast it sails??

But I guess one can't judge the smell of a flower until the nose comes near it.

By the way, as you may read above, it wasn't me that started taking about speed, nor did I once attack or belittle anyone.

Thanks for the post anyway, and take care..


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Definitely not young anymore...not if your wife is giving you a radar set for your birthday. 


Giulietta said:


> Nice story. It's not exactly applicable, but a nice read. Thanks.
> 
> Now, for your comment..
> 
> I am not exactly young and foolish..I was..well..maybe a little foolish...


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

sailaway21 said:


> Different boats to different purposes. This _shouldn't_ be a difficult concept to understand


I thought that was the point I was making.


sailaway21 said:


> nor require continuous debate.


Shouldn't, but apparently does.


sailaway21 said:


> Self-validation is tedious.


 Tedious yes, but still a good opportunity to show video's of one's boat.


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

I like old shoes. 
John Vigor on boat choice "Avoid excessively ugly boats because they indicate a serious lack of knowledge of design or construction. No useful boat need ever be ugly".


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

That's not an Old Shoe...


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Giulietta said:


> That's not an Old Shoe...


They don't seem to get it do they Alex?

_This_ is an Old Shoe


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

knothead said:


> They don't seem to get it do they Alex?
> 
> _This_ is an Old Shoe
> 
> View attachment 2923


I get it. That's a beautiful boat.


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> That's not an Old Shoe...


She's no J boat.  Heavy displacement. Exaggerated head sail. Heavy fiberglass layup. Full keel,albeit with a bronze centerboard. Large diesel and two large fuel tanks. Heavy wood interior.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Petmac...all I need to do is look at the Hinckley's mast...

and as for the exagerated head sail, when you have both sails out, and you look at the genoa with the main, the genoa is not exagerated..just right.

Believe me, no matter how hard you try, that is not an Old shoe...

But..I am not posting either what I call Old Shoe...sorry..

I get enough attack as it is.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

knothead said:


> They don't seem to get it do they Alex?
> 
> _This_ is an Old Shoe
> 
> View attachment 2923


Nope...sorry..that's just old...a very nice good looking classic..never wanting to be more than it is..

The Old shoe tries (poorly) to imitate that look....get it???

I actually like that boat you posted a lot...we have a few in Cascais, and I've sailed in 2.

We also have a few more in the Algarve, belonging to people we meet every year...and believe me..they are just what they are..

Sorry...no Old Shoe there either...


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Oh hell Giu, there was no attack, nor did it reflex any hate or anger, that's would be absured, that would imply that I took what you post seriously.

I will ask this though, you started a topic that targeted & belittled a boat, one that you know cosmetically disscribes many boats on this board, you then take offence when someone comments on your boat and you ask to keep such targeting on the side and then cry victim when I bust your chops a little ??

Believe when I say Alex, I couldn't care less what you think of a HD boats, a boat by the way I just happen to own, but you knew this already.

I do however care that you think my post was a attack on you filled with hate & anger, you want to play the victim card, you'll have to use someone else..............sorry 


BTW, there's been several pictures of what others imagine you mean by Old Shoe, none of them you feel seem to fit your preception of an old Shoe, maybe you could post one that does. ya know, kinda in the spirit of a " Good deate "


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

knothead said:


> They don't seem to get it do they Alex?
> 
> _This_ is an Old Shoe
> 
> View attachment 2923


That is absolutely a beautiful boat


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Come on guys, That is a picture of a "Spray" copy, as I'm sure you're aware. 
She was heavy, sailed like crap to windward and had to have a topsail, flying jib and half a gale to get any speed. That's an Old Shoe. A very pretty Old Shoe but nonetheless....

He schatje, wil je zien mijn boegspriet?

Olá querida, quero ver o meu gurupés?

赤ちゃんねえ、私のバウスプリットを見たいですか？


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

knothead said:


> Olá querida, quero ver o meu gurupés?


Não obrigado, fica para a próxima...mostra-a aos teus amigos acima...eles parecem precisar de força, especialmente o zangado...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

poopdeckpappy said:


> BTW, there's been several pictures of what others imagine you mean by Old Shoe, none of them you feel seem to fit your preception of an old Shoe, maybe you could post one that does. ya know, kinda in the spirit of a " Good deate "


and you would just love that...wouldn't you??

sorry....already paid for that cause...


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Giulietta said:


> Não obrigado, fica para a próxima...mostra-a aos teus amigos acima...eles parecem precisar de força, especialmente o zangado...


Esse é um captador linha que ouvi, em Amesterdão. Pensei que era engraçado, mas porque fui casada durante 27 anos, eu nunca tive a oportunidade de usá-lo.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

Is a multi-hull a sandal?


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Why do I always think about one boat when I read this thread?

1000days.net - Home


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## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

Hey, check out my new speedster!










Uh oh. A raft-up! Parrrrrrrr-TAY.










USCG rescued all crew of this one:


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## RollsRoyce (Dec 6, 2008)

**"That's an Easy One!"**

*I'm an *Old-Shoe* ...

Best, . RR ...*


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## Hillster (Nov 19, 2008)

painkiller that was too funny

:laugher


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Pain....

Absolutely funny..really was.



OK, you're in trouble now..you may have offended a few here...

Those boats represent the "demographics" here.....be warned....the boats in your photos are similar to some here...

expect remarks about your boat, now...you arrogant, bragging, over the top salesman, with no class...fat @$$ boat owner you...


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

negative bouyancy


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

*Second hand shoes*

OK, so I think I get it. 
I would love to sail on a fast boat like Giulietta. It must really be a pizzer hauling azz on a beam or broad reach. 
I guess we all just have to make compromises with our boats: what we can afford, what we ideally want and what we can keep up with in terms of maintenance and what we get back from it in our intended usage. 
Perhaps my 'big' boat is an 'old shoe'. One man's 'old shoe' is another mans 'classic plastic' sailboat. I guess some of us are a bit nostalgic about older things like my well worn leather jacket and older boat (then most plastic people own). 
Alex,
Glad to hear that you don't waste much time playing golf and IIRC you are more of an engineer (and a gentleman who likes to stir things up a bit) then a salesman.
Here is a photo of my 'old shoe':


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Bubb...you're in trouble too....that looks like a G*****....wow..nice shot of it sailing....

now..you are aware of your arrogance, aren't you?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CalebD said:


> OK, so I think I get it.
> I would love to sail on a fast boat like Giulietta. It must really be a pizzer hauling azz on a beam or broad reach.
> I guess we all just have to make compromises with our boats: what we can afford, what we ideally want and what we can keep up with in terms of maintenance and what we get back from it in our intended usage.
> Perhaps my 'big' boat is an 'old shoe'. One man's 'old shoe' is another mans 'classic plastic' sailboat. I guess some of us are a bit nostalgic about older things like my well worn leather jacket and older boat (then most plastic people own).
> ...


Caleb, I am happy you saw the thread was nothing more than me stirring things here..I am in Wyoming, bored to death, so wrote that...

I was being me..I could have picked CD's boat, but that is too worn out..Hunters...well I don't really know them that well and in the end we have fights...plastic bottles would be good, but since I own one, wouldn't make sense..Macs...that's too old joke too...Cam doesn't have a boat anymore, SD's not even a boat, so....then during the day here in sailnet I saw a thread..it attracted me to a web site..I saw a web site for a company that builds Old Shoes new...and another one..and another one...all the same type of boat...and started thinking about a poor guy that once showed up in Cascais with a Valiant, and he would trade it in exchange for a Beneteau of same size (no one wanted his boat)...he had crossed the Atlantic, and according to him, in almnost twice the time it took him 2 years before in a HR...his main was in a bag..that's how usefull it was..he wasn't happy...and he could sail..(by the way, he was once here on sailnet)..

Really, at the end of the day, and in all seriousness, I don't really care what you sail, or who sails what..all boats are boats and all serve their purpose..you (or anyone else here) don't have to show me that...I know it very well...some posters here I didn't even read as they are on ignore...I don't really care.

But..alas...we end up seeing the true colours that show up here, and that is also good, because in the end..we only share and play with who we want to..and this way we select our friends and with whom we want to play with...

I have learnt here, that many here...I don't play with...

and if Omatako had understood that on his first post, perhaps none of this would have happened..but he didn't..and started thrwoing in my face his wonderfull boat spec, that I don't really care for...and he mentioned the speed...so I replied...that my boat may not be as bad in sea as he thinks, and goes faster..that was all...

Anyway...this is the internet..remeber???

I may not even have a boat...and sit in a humid basement, or in the depths of my long keeler....

I really didn't aim at anyone in particular..

By the way..what is your boat?


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Hate to say it, but there is really a boat design named old shoe.










Designed by Phil Bolger.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Dan

sorry but you are a little wrong..

the boat named after a shoe is the Sabbot, that is a Dutch design inspired by an old Portuguese design, called the SAPATO (shoe)...(hence the name Sabot, that sounds like sapato)...they were small boats that in the old days would pick up people from the sailing ships in the harbours..

Guess who owns one...CKGREENMAN!!!!! for sure

let me look for the link

found it

The symbol of the Sabot is....a Dutch Shoe!!!!

SEE HERE


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Close but not it, this is the design I'm talking about.










I built one about ten years ago.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

OK..in Portuguese, a boat with double end stern and certain cabin features, is, even today, called a Sapato...(shoe)...not to belitle, just a terminology

As we grew up, we would see many "sapatos" sail up and down our coasts...

Hence the Shoe thing....now...make a boat that looks like an old sapato....and you have....

an old shoe


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Dan...nice Sapato...


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Oh I know it's just a joke. I just laugh each time some one asks what an old shoe is. Even the boat I built was slow and clunky. The designers discription of the boat and where it's name came from is that it would be comfortable to sail, like an old shoe.


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## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

And a fart reference in a boat name is always in good taste.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Just out of curiosity just how fast is your boat?
Do you have a PHRF rating?


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Alex,
Capiche (I know, it is Italian but all you Youropeans speak each others languages better then most of us Amaricans can each others dialects). 
I see that there is a lot of mostly good natured ribbing and joking going on here that sometimes gets mis-interpreted as an 'attack'. I guess that this is why the 'ignore' feature is a good idea on this forum. Unfortunately humor is not always so easy to detect on the internet and can result in the dreaded flame-out argument. Some just can't see the forest for the trees.
In any event, since you asked, my 'old shoe' is a Tartan 27' from 1967 with a gasoline Atomic 4 engine, mostly full keel with centerboard and a bit heavy old girl with too much teak on the topsides. She keeps me busy with all her old systems but she is a solid and sea-kindly (if kinda slow) sailor. That said, I don't like to push her too much as I know there are issues with aging chainplate attachment points that I still need to repair but I like the idea that she is a solidly built boat (if a bit slow for her LWL). This boat was designed by Sparkman & Stephens and made (where else) in Ohio by Douglas & McLeod Boatworks (back in the day when the Tartan name was more closely associated with the Cadillac (Mercedes to you) of boats. 
I also have a 19' Lightning which was also designed by one of the S&S guys (can't remember which) right here on Long Island. You should get Fred interested in a boat like this in a few years and ditch the Optis for the small fry. The Lightning sports a spinnaker and can plane on the waters surface if well handled.
All in all, I hope your stay in Montana isn't too tedious and that you get to see what is left of the waning full moon as it rebounds from its perigee and northern declination. I hope you like snow skiing and can get away from the internet at your hotel between your work sessions. 
Parting comment: Your boat is made of plastic too!
Keep stirring the pot.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

We don't have the PHRF rating but the IRC is 1.091, which is more or less 30 in your PHRF rating system..more or less..


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

painkiller said:


> USCG rescued all crew of this one:


I still count one lost soul.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> We don't have the PHRF rating but the IRC is 1.091, which is more or less 30 in your PHRF rating system..more or less..


I would say 30 is about right, Alex, no higher than 40, anyway. Your boat isn't as extreme as people think...it's just a fast boat. I saw a boat called an Aerodyne 38 that reminded me of yours this summer.

A Farr 40, on the other hand...that's more extreme.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Giulietta said:


> and if Omatako had understood that on his first post, perhaps none of this would have happened..but he didn't..and started thrwoing in my face his wonderfull boat spec, that I don't really care for...and he mentioned the speed...so I replied...that my boat may not be as bad in sea as he thinks, and goes faster..that was all...


Giu, you really are a little paranoid about criticism, you appear to read criticism against you into every post that doesn't agree with you.

I wouldn't even think about throwing my boat's spec in your face - I was merely making the point that my boat is statistically not far from your description of an old shoe and my prophecy that you would get a reaction to your OP was right on the money.

The over-riding concept in your OP is one of a slow boat so one would then naturally think that fast is what sailing is all about to you. I described your boat (not cynically or in any derogatory way), then I described mine. How the heck can you take exception to that?

And if you recall, I took my "old shoe" within two weeks of ownership and sailed a trans Pacific voyage. I never took her out of the water and had a raft of expensive alterations and customisations done. She did the job that I expected her to. I'm not going to make excuses to you or anybody else for that.

And now you're making me responsible for lighting this fire?? You're a real gem.


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## Harvester (Mar 1, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> Anyway...this is the internet..remeber???
> I may not even have a boat...and sit in a humid basement, or in the depths of my long keeler....


Ok!!!! I get it now!!!

I must admit that was a brilliant creation coming up with that crazy Giu guy ... You really made him up so real I bit the story all the way... What a foul! How could I ever have thought that someone like that Alex man could even exist in the first place??? And on top of it, making him a Portuguese? Easy, relaxed, polite, and quiet as portugese people are? C'mon!!! That was a really tough test on our common sense!










Oh baby... Oh yeah! I'm just back from doing business in the US... Oh yeah!! I sailed to the 12 mille mark today... Oh yes! IT'S GIU YOU DAMN IT!!

  

And what about all those guys that supposedly visited that Alex character in Lisbon? The Wombat, Valiente, the just married couple, the politics maniac, ... I guess you also made them all up, eh? Wow!!! Pretty thorough a job!!!


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Be careful when a man says his wife is like an old shoe... Because that means that he is very comfortable with her in all aspects... And it is only for him to say these words.
But I had a Catalina 30 in the early 80s when I was living in San Diego Ca. I really enjoyed that boat... But the wife sold it when I was out at sea on a ship. Well she is an ex now....


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

Some folks are REALLY touchy!!  

I suspect an Old Shoe could have a fully enclosed and air conditioned aft cockpit. 

With a few potted plants mixed in!! :laugher


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Omatako said:


> Giu, you really are a little paranoid about criticism, you appear to read criticism against you into every post that doesn't agree with you.
> 
> I wouldn't even think about throwing my boat's spec in your face - I was merely making the point that my boat is statistically not far from your description of an old shoe and my prophecy that you would get a reaction to your OP was right on the money.
> 
> ...


Omatako, points taken and dully noted. Our customer manager will get back to you shortly. Please stay on the line.

look, in reality, you are responsible, just because you are Australian. For this and for a whole lot more..like for example, yesterday, George W Bush was thrown a Gozzard and a Cabo Rico, and if he dodged those boats..man..I really have a lot more consideration for him now..

just a side not..what gem am I?? worth any money?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

You are currently a piece of coal Alex, You need a bit more pressure added to the mix, and some day...........not sure when the someday will be, you will be worth more than that.............. maybe.....................in the meantime, take up snow skiing while in the midwest states. My sons are in Colorado right now with some friends, it was -14F where they were yesterday morning. talk about cold..............

Marty


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> My sons are in Colorado right now with some friends, it was -14F where they were yesterday morning. talk about cold..............
> 
> Marty


It's 27.9 out my office window right now. It was 50 degrees warmer this time yesterday. WTF!!! 

Give me some global warming! :hothead

My old shoe has a heater.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

It was 20F in the seattle area when I woke up this morning, still mid 20's. I'm in landscape construction/maintenance, with current forcast........lloks like temps below 32F for the next 10days, with snow forecast on the 24th! lots of time to do end of the yr tax paperwork etc. 

It will at least be clear for many of the days, windy........hmmmmmm..........sailing in mid 20F temps, with 15-25knot winds...........may qualify for a BFS eh!

Alex, would Freds opti be considered a "sapato"? I would think so because of the pram style front. as would any other boat built to this style.......then again, may be wrong too!

marty


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Giulietta said:


> Omatako, points taken and dully noted. Our customer manager will get back to you shortly. Please stay on the line.
> 
> look, in reality, you are responsible, just because you are Australian. For this and for a whole lot more..like for example, yesterday, George W Bush was thrown a Gozzard and a Cabo Rico, and if he dodged those boats..man..I really have a lot more consideration for him now..
> 
> just a side not..what gem am I?? worth any money?


Yes us Australians and you Spanish need to work more together.

Do you have value? Like the US$, sometimes.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

danjarch said:


> Hate to say it, but there is really a boat design named old shoe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dan...that is clearly not named Old Shoe...must be Hawgs boat!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Omatako said:


> Yes us Australians and you Spanish need to work more together.


    ahh I see you got it....bastardo sujo....


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

My boat is an old shoe (old and slow), but does not fit Gui's description of one...Kinda looks like a dutch wooden shoe....


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