# Experience required to bareboat?



## CaribDream

My wife and I are trying to book our first bareboat charter in the BVI next year. We are both ASA Basic Keelboat (101), Coatal Cruising (103), and Bareboat (104) certified. I went on to earn my ASA Navigation (105) certification as well. We have done 4 crewed charters, 3 in the BVI and 1 in the Florida keys.

I also added on my sailing resume that I am currently enrolled in a school pursuing my 50 ton Master's, and have owned power boats for 10+ years.

I fully understand that I am no old salt, but I thought I had sufficient experience to charter. I am attempting to charter a 40 foot monohull and the bareboat company has told me that after my resume review I will be required to hire a captain for the first 2 days. Is this common?


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## CLOSECALL

That sounds nuts. Get another charter company.


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## Donna_F

No.

Our sail club chartered in the BVI and one couple was able to (although they didn't) bareboat with only lake sailing experience.

Maybe things are changing but usually a credit card is what they require. Sounds like they want to throw their captain some work.


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## CaribDream

Maybe TMM is more difficult than others? I just wonder if the captain decides he wants to make some cash that he might stay aboard the whole week. That's an additional $1200 and kinda defeats the purpose of bareboating.


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## Donna_F

There's an umbrella company that owns Sunsail, Moorings and (I think) TMM. Or maybe Footloose? We went through Sunsail and the requirements were minimal.


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## knotnow

On the surface it appears you have more certifications than a lot of charterers. Add in the crewed time you’ve spent in the BVI’s a mandatory 2 day skipper assignment sounds extreme. Most charter company briefers can read your competency in 5 minutes by observing how you move around the boat and comments and questions during the briefing. If they are not comfortable a demonstration of your abilities might be requested. You might want to check around.


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## Zanshin

The ASA Bareboat should be more than sufficient, and usually with what a charter company considers a "borderline" charterer they will send out a skipper for the first part of a day, but certainly never 2 days.


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## CaribDream

knotnow:1229146 said:


> On the surface it appears you have more certifications than a lot of charterers. Add in the crewed time you've spent in the BVI's a mandatory 2 day skipper assignment sounds extreme. Most charter company briefers can read your competency in 5 minutes by observing how you move around the boat and comments and questions during the briefing. If they are not comfortable a demonstration of your abilities might be requested. You might want to check around.


That's what I thought... I can understand if they did a checkout and I messed something up - but I haven't even spoken to the company. They made this requirement based on my sailing resume alone. It just doesn't add up. Who is to say this guy won't stay on the boat. I really don't mind having a skipper for a day as this is my first bareboat, but something just doesn't sound/feel right here. I'm really considering canceling and going with Sunsail instead.


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## CaribDream

Zanshin:1229250 said:


> The ASA Bareboat should be more than sufficient, and usually with what a charter company considers a "borderline" charterer they will send out a skipper for the first part of a day, but certainly never 2 days.


Ok - so I'm not crazy then. At least not totally. Their quote was "The first day and next morning". I'm taking that as 2 days.


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## Zanshin

TMM is serious about their qualifications and they are used to being lied to (well, "inflated resumes" where someone once saw a boat close-up and thus claims 100,000 sea miles). I have heard of skippers going out with the boat and if all looks OK they'll ask to be put ashore by dinghy somewhere. Finding space for a skipper aboard a 40-footer with a full complement of guests is going to be hard in any case.


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## CaribDream

Zanshin:1229338 said:


> TMM is serious about their qualifications and they are used to being lied to (well, "inflated resumes" where someone once saw a boat close-up and thus claims 100,000 sea miles). I have heard of skippers going out with the boat and if all looks OK they'll ask to be put ashore by dinghy somewhere. Finding space for a skipper aboard a 40-footer with a full complement of guests is going to be hard in any case.


This makes total sense, it just alarms me that they make this requirement from resume alone. This is a 3 cabin 2 head boat which is total overkill for just me and my wife, but it was cheaper than smaller/older options with other companies, has a shallower draft, and TMM offers some other benefits that we liked.

I don't know what to do. Either I go with a 36 at Sunsail (more money but probably a better fit), or stick with TMM and risk a skipper that decides to stay aboard.


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## CaribDream

Just spoke with my last charter captain and he's also spooked by it. He's telling me to cancel and go with another company.


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## nolesailor

I've chartered with Sunsail in the BVI and the qualifications were minimal. I had ASA through 104 (as did my wife), several other charters elsewhere, plus boat ownership. I would think your ASA classes, plus prior/current ownership of a sailboat would be sufficient. Try one of the larger companies...Sunsail or Moorings. Not sure what the size of your current boat is, but if smaller, perhaps the charter company has reservations about the size of the boat (i.e. 40'). Either way, I've heard of captains being required for a couple of hours to ensure you know how to tack, etc., but two days does seem long...

And I'm sure that all who have charered in the BVI can certainly attest to seeing their fair share of "questionable" captains with a charter boat...so it is quite possible that some may be more restrictive than others...


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## CaribDream

My boat ownership is mostly powerboats. My sailboat is only a 15 foot daysailer so maybe this is a problen that I don't own a larger boat. As I said, surely I am a new sailor there is no question there. But I had thought I was going about the proper course. I have done 4 crewed charters and all the certs. Just figured that would count for something.


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## FarCry

CaribDream said:


> My wife and I are trying to book our first bareboat charter in the BVI next year. We are both ASA Basic Keelboat (101), Coatal Cruising (103), and Bareboat (104) certified. I went on to earn my ASA Navigation (105) certification as well. We have done 4 crewed charters, 3 in the BVI and 1 in the Florida keys.
> 
> I also added on my sailing resume that I am currently enrolled in a school pursuing my 50 ton Master's, and have owned power boats for 10+ years.
> 
> I fully understand that I am no old salt, but I thought I had sufficient experience to charter. I am attempting to charter a 40 foot monohull and the bareboat company has told me that after my resume review I will be required to hire a captain for the first 2 days. Is this common?


Having not read your resume I would say it's not necessarily uncommon to have a skipper required. I work for a charter company and do not approve resumes, I do see a fair number of them. Some charter companies are more wary than others when it comes to protecting the assets that the owners have been so gracious to entrust them with. I go out with guests for three reasons:
1) The charter guest requested a skipper. The time frame for the skipper is determined well ahead of time anywhere from one day to the entire period of the charter.
2) The owner of the company required the charterer to take a skipper typically because of resume concerns. Again this is determined well ahead of time. This is usually one or two days depending on how well the guest is handling the boat and systems. I've been scheduled to go out for 2-3 days before and gotten off early because the guests are doing so well there is not a real need to keep me on the boat longer. 
3) I've done a briefing on a boat and it's clear that either the charter guest has greatly embellished their resume, they haven't sailed in a very long time and skills they might have had once have greatly diminished, or for whatever reason the charterer just can't demonstrate VERY basic skills during the sailcheck. This is the most awkward and my least favorite part of the job and thankfully only happens a couple of times a year probably because the company is so stringent on resumes. There is no way to know if a skipper for a day or two or more is needed. It is all dependent on the charter. I sure don't want to mess up somebody's vacation plans! In the same sense if somebody can't figure out how to get the sails up (or out) and get through a tack or two, why would it be responsible to turn them loose on something worth a few hundred thousand dollars when there is a very good chance they could hurt themselves, some one else or the boat?

I don't know what the magic formula is to "pass" with TMM or anybody else. Reading your post, the things that would concern me are that you don't describe any bareboat experience at all. You don't describe owning a similar sized sailboat to 40'. From a charter company perspective I would assume that crewed charters are looked at the same as if you said you had been on a cruise ship. The other thing is that for a first bareboat charter for a couple, you don't mention having other crew along, starting on a 40' could be seen as a negative. Charter companies are in the business of sending people out on boats. Boats on docks do NOT make money.

My suggestions are, if you know you have all the necessary skills to bareboat a 40' boat, accept the skipper for 2 days and learn from him. You will be out what, $300-$400? What percentage of your total trip expense is that? You've taken the time and spent the money to get ASA certifications, why not continue your education with another experienced sailor? Any skipper that is worth a darn will recognize your abilities and leave you alone as soon as is practical. TMM is a reputable outfit, and technically our competition, and I would be utterly amazed to learn they were not using good skippers that would try and stretch a trip out for no reason. Or, see if a smaller boat is available that avoids the skipper requirement. Or, wrangle up some friends with sailing experience to go along with you. Or, ignore cost and go someplace that looks at your credit card limit as the measure of the skills needed to go. Some of the largest companies come to mind. 

Whatever you decide to do, have fun, relax and be safe.


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## RkyMtnHighWinds

You might want to contact BVI Yacht Charters. My wife and I were in the same situation and they were fine with us chartering without a captain. We both recently completed ASA 101, 103, & 104 and just own a Capri 14.2 for local lake sailing and that was enough. We did our first charter with them (just the wife and I) in late October of this year and were very happy with them. Many of their boats are a bit older but we had no issues with the Beneteau 31 we chartered. I can't wait to go back in 2014. Have a great time!


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## Minnesail

My experience was this: I had been crew on four charters and took ASA 101, 103, 104, 105, and 106. The company initially required a captain for an afternoon. Just the afternoon, not a whole day and a morning. But it turned out that the charter master personally knew my 103-104 instructor (I included my instructors' names and email on the resume), so after she reassured him that I could dock a boat with causing too much damage I was cleared to charter without any additional oversight.

A day and a morning seems extreme.


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## SVAuspicious

DRFerron said:


> There's an umbrella company that owns Sunsail, Moorings and (I think) TMM. Or maybe Footloose? We went through Sunsail and the requirements were minimal.


Moorings, Sunsail, and Footloose have common ownership.

I haven't seen your resume, but from your brief description I think most of the charter companies would approve you. Some might ask for a check sail, which takes about an hour.


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## Vasco

You want to list your credit cards when you send your resume in. That's all it usually takes. They must know something about you that we don't know. 

Highly unusual, go with another outfit.


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## nolesailor

I would definately check with other companies...even if they require a captain also, if may be for a much shorter period of time. Worst case scenario, you are required to have one...from that point on you will have bareboat experience which will only make things easier. One of the bigger companies - such as Sunsail/Moorings - have bases everywhere which may make things easier when chartering in different locations...they would already have your history with them.


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## Sal Paradise

See if you can make it for one day. 

Coming from a 15 footer to chartering a larger sailboat. What's it $200 a day for the captain? Try and hire him for one day. Personally, although I feel I could manage, and you probably can as well - having someone with local sailing experience along for at least one day sounds okay.


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## CaribDream

Sal Paradise:1229642 said:


> See if you can make it for one day.
> 
> Coming from a 15 footer to chartering a larger sailboat. What's it $200 a day for the captain? Try and hire him for one day. Personally, although I feel I could manage, and you probably can as well - having someone with local sailing experience along for at least one day sounds okay.


I have no problem at all with having/paying the skipper for a day, even 2. As someone noted here and I agree, surely I will learn something from him. It's just the manner in which it was required that surprised me.

Even though we were bareboat certified this year, we chose to do a crewed charter (in the bvi) one more time to get more experience before taking on a bareboat. I just figured my resume was up to par. What people have said here makes sense. I guess being told this solely from my resume shook my confidence.


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## Sal Paradise

I get that you are certified and that you are a bit put off.... I'm just saying try and negotiate the sticking point. 


Have a great time. I'm envious. And I see your point. If I had to guess its the 15 foot boat that probably throws them.


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## Ded reckoner

I suspect the charterer is having heartburn over two things. The first is that this is your first bareboat charter and the second is that you are requesting a 40 foot sailboat, which is considered large. I think this could have been alleviated if your first bareboat charter had repeated the itinerary of your ASA 103 and 104 class (i.e. using the same charterer out of which you took the classes). This would have given both you and the new charterer confidence that you're okay on your own and with that size boat. Now, you have to pick among the available options, most of which still look good. Don't be discouraged. Go, be safe, and have fun!


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## CaribDream

Ded reckoner:1230809 said:


> I suspect the charterer is having heartburn over two things. The first is that this is your first bareboat charter and the second is that you are requesting a 40 foot sailboat, which is considered large. I think this could have been alleviated if your first bareboat charter had repeated the itinerary of your ASA 103 and 104 class (i.e. using the same charterer out of which you took the classes). This would have given both you and the new charterer confidence that you're okay on your own and with that size boat. Now, you have to pick among the available options, most of which still look good. Don't be discouraged. Go, be safe, and have fun!


I suspect you are right. Only problem is that we didn't take our 103 and 104 with a charter company. We did those certifications on a Morgan Out Island 41 with a private ASA school in the Florida keys. I agree on the size too. While all of my big-boat experience has been on 40+, I would rather start on my own with a 36 but TMM doesn't have anything that small. There were several reasons why we chose TMM.


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## benesailor

> I suspect the charterer is having heartburn over two things. The first is that this is your first bareboat charter and the second is that you are requesting a 40 foot sailboat, which is considered large. I think this could have been alleviated if your first bareboat charter had repeated the itinerary of your ASA 103 and 104 class (i.e. using the same charterer out of which you took the classes). This would have given both you and the new charterer confidence that you're okay on your own and with that size boat. Now, you have to pick among the available options, most of which still look good. Don't be discouraged. Go, be safe, and have fun!


I was thinking the same thing. I hold all the ASA's as well, yet, i own a 40 foot boat. If you came to me with your resume and asked for a week on my 40 footer i would ask for a serious check ride. I think that if you had asked for a 30 footer they probably wouldn't blink. Going from 30 to 40 boat is a jump. 
Given that you had crewed several times i would take this into account. Some letters of recommendation from the Captains of the crewed boats might help as well. IE Docking, mooring and sail skills.


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## benesailor

Curious, Why TMM? You can tell us.


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## knotnow

41 Morgan Out Islander is a good boat but a little bit of a slug. The Jenny’s & Benny’s in the charter fleet tend to be a little more spirited. The biggest difference in size is it takes longer to get into trouble but once there “Oh Baby” it takes fancier stuff to get you out. Another difference is the sheet loads and results.


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## CaribDream

benesailor:1231001 said:


> Curious, Why TMM? You can tell us.


Sure. I like the idea of a smaller company, better or more individualized service (could be debated either way I suppose). I also like that they offered better prices than the other options I found (40 foot for the same price or less than others 36 foot), while offering free wi-fi which runs about $300ish per week with other companies. On the particular boat we chose, I liked the dual helm and shallow draft. I also prefer to have a dedicated chart plotter. I don't want to use an iPad for a plotter as I just don't wanna worry about it flying around the cockpit by accident.

TMM also offers a 10% return customer discount which is very attractive. I wish they had a 36... Shorter than 36 looks a little too claustrophobic for our taste and lack the lounging room in the cockpit that we have become accustomed to.


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## CaribDream

knotnow:1231017 said:


> 41 Morgan Out Islander is a good boat but a little bit of a slug. The Jenny's & Benny's in the charter fleet tend to be a little more spirited. The biggest difference in size is it takes longer to get into trouble but once there "Oh Baby" it takes fancier stuff to get you out. Another difference is the sheet loads and results.


Agreed. This year on our crewed BVI charter we were on a Jeanneau 46. What an amazing difference from the Morgan we trained on. I really enjoyed the Jeanneau and how much more responsive she was. Our captain knew we were doing one last crewed charter as a bareboat primer and let us do everything we wanted. As much as I really liked the Jeanneau, I'm glad we trained on the Morgan and experienced that too.


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## benesailor

> Sure. I like the idea of a smaller company, better or more individualized service (could be debated either way I suppose). I also like that they offered better prices than the other options I found (40 foot for the same price or less than others 36 foot), while offering free wi-fi which runs about $300ish per week with other companies. On the particular boat we chose, I liked the dual helm and shallow draft. I also prefer to have a dedicated chart plotter. I don't want to use an iPad for a plotter as I just don't wanna worry about it flying around the cockpit by accident.
> 
> TMM also offers a 10% return customer discount which is very attractive. I wish they had a 36... Shorter than 36 looks a little too claustrophobic for our taste and lack the lounging room in the cockpit that we have become accustomed to.


Very solid answer. Big difference when going to the 40. (roomy,comfort)

Come on up; you can take my boat for a spin.


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## benesailor

> Agreed. This year on our crewed BVI charter we were on a Jeanneau 46. What an amazing difference from the Morgan we trained on. I really enjoyed the Jeanneau and how much more responsive she was. Our captain knew we were doing one last crewed charter as a bareboat primer and let us do everything we wanted. As much as I really liked the Jeanneau, I'm glad we trained on the Morgan and experienced that too.


Most people that have only sailed older boats trip over themselves when they sail a newer Bene/Jene. They find the controls and maneuverability unbelievable.


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## knotnow

Agree for the most part. But think Oyster, Hylas, and other premium boats


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## davidpm

The first time you get behind the wheel of that big boat and it is all about you and your wife on the foredeck I suspect you will be more than a little nervous I know I am the first day of every season.

The enormity of the responsibility hits you all at once.
If something happens then you will have a mark on your name that will be hard to erase.

You could just go with the flow maybe with an agreement that the captain can be dropped off after the first day if he is not needed. 
The idea that they are going to double cross you with a captain you don't need or want is probably a worry about nothing. That is not in their best interests.

You seem to be working hard at becoming a better sailor. You never know you may like the captain so much and may be learning so much you may even have a better time with him on board at least for a little while. 

I have the asa 101,103,104 and went back for Captains OUVP and ASA instructors 201,203,204 and 205 and if they wanted me to take a captain for or day or so I would be pleased and you better believe I would get my $200 worth out of the guy. People like that you can learn an awful lot from. I would squeeze the guy dry.

I don't know about your wife but when I'm sailing with my wife due to some health issues I have to assume I'm on my own at any given moment. It is just more relaxing when I know I have someone else to help especially if it is on a boat that is new to me.


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## CaribDream

benesailor:1231049 said:


> Very solid answer. Big difference when going to the 40. (roomy,comfort)
> 
> Come on up; you can take my boat for a spin.


Boy would I love that! This whole experience is making me wonder if I am biting off too much. I feel like I can handle the 40 but now I'm second guessing. Frustrating.


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## neilsty

In the BVIs you do not need a shallow draft, I would think a deeper draft is better in the trades. The water is deep with most anchorages easily accessible for a 6 ft draft boat. Only places you will need less than 7ft draft is for white bay on Jost and anegada. With your experience you will probably not be cleared for anegada anyway. There are a lot of charterers you do not know how to anchor, sail with way too much canvass up, and do not know what a traveler is for, so like others have said if you have the paperwork to show basic competency plus a good credit card you are golden. I have never chartered from TMM, but years ago I did take a look at their boats as I was considering a saga, and they had one for charter. I didn't charter it nor did I buy a saga, but my impression was that their boats wre not as well maintained as the better known charter companies and I have some horror stories about one if these better known companies. My experience has been that the only charter companies that are serious about valid capabilities are island yachts out of red hook, and voyage out of west end, the others it is basic ASA and a credit card.


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## FarCry

benesailor said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I hold all the ASA's as well, yet, i own a 40 foot boat. If you came to me with your resume and asked for a week on my 40 footer i would ask for a serious check ride. I think that if you had asked for a 30 footer they probably wouldn't blink. Going from 30 to 40 boat is a jump.
> Given that you had crewed several times i would take this into account. Some letters of recommendation from the Captains of the crewed boats might help as well. IE Docking, mooring and sail skills.


Ownership of a similar boat that one wishes to charter and experience on it trump all the certificates that one can possibly earn. Let me share my last experience with a certified ASA instructor from about 3 weeks ago. NO, I am not knocking ASA in any way but rather what happens when lack of practical "big" boat experience meets paper certifications.

I was hired to do a one day familiarity trip by the charterer on a 44' Jeanneau. The charterer is a recently certified ASA instructor who sails regularly and teaches at an inland lake on 20' keelboats. Being a cautious guy with his family on board, he requested a skipper for the day to get used to handling a boat much larger than he was used to. He had zero ego and was an absolute sponge absorbing info about new to him systems like the generator and A/C systems. I asked if he would like to do the safety briefing before departing the dock to which he eagerly agreed. I listened and added info as needed but overall he was very thorough covering MOB, fire extinguishers, life jackets etc. He handled the boat pretty well once we had left the dock. During lunch I asked if there were any specific things he would like to cover that I hadn't already. He asked for a surprise MOB at some point to see how his crew would handle it. Most of his crew had sailed with him, one gentleman had never sailed before... The instructor's daughter was at the helm doing an excellent job sailing upwind in choppy conditions. When everyone was focused on a turtle ahead on the starboard side, I tossed a PFD out the port aft and let it get out about 50yds before yelling man overboard!!! I immediately said that I lost sight of them but they are in an orange life jacket (my subtle signal for others to spot them and maintain a visual, at this point I lay hands on the horseshoe life ring so it is not tossed) and started a stopwatch. At this point the non-sailor/boater immediately pointed and said that he sees the MOB. This guy was a machine, he never stopped pointing throughout the "ordeal". Next we did nothing...30 seconds still doing 8kts away and we did...nothing...1 minute into in and no actions taken. I finally said that I really didn't want to loose the life jacket and directly asked the charterer what his intentions were before I took over the helm and got the PFD myself! Granted now we are 200-300 yards away making 7-8kts, the course still hasn't been changed, no words other than mine have been spoken! The charterer finally snapped out of it and had his daughter change course which soon had us in irons and then more or less hove to. We are now 2:30 into this and haven't really even begun to proceed towards the MOB. Eventually I suggested the best helmsperson take the helm. The charterer took the helm and began instructing the crew to ease some sheets off winches and eventually got the boat moving generally toward the MOB. 4:00 into it we have done some sort of a convoluted figure 8 and are coming into the PFD on a near beam reach making nearly 9kts. After repeatedly hinting that we are carrying a LOT of speed a crewmember is sent to the rail to grab the PFD. The wake from the bow wave literally shot the PFD away from the hull as we flew by. Strike 1 at about 5:00. A real figure 8 is immediately attempted but made too tight to get within 20' of the MOB. Strike 2 at about 6:30. Charterer learns from his mistakes and makes a perfect approach nearly stalling the boat on the MOB while furling sails. MOB is recovered stopwatch indicates just under 9 minutes. The person with the least amount of experience on the boat has never once stopped pointing at the MOB and finally lets his arm down. Five hours earlier he didn't know what a MOB was or what to do about it. Clearly he was paying attention during the thorough safety briefing at the dock. Get that guy a beer!

During the charterer's safety briefing at the dock regarding MOB procedures he seemed to be repeating a section of a manual verbatim. I interjected numerous other options to consider rather than, or in addition to, sailing the standard figure 8 such as: 
Hit the MOB button on the chartplotter
Start the engine and quickly furl sails, motor back to retrieve MOB
Hop in the dinghy and get the MOB

Reviewing the drill, all agreed it was an unacceptable amount of time to get close to retrieving a MOB. The charterer said his mind went blank. He'd never had a non-planned MOB drill. He was used to the smaller, slower, more nimble keel boats on the lake. He wasn't used to the wind speed or sea state we were in. He never considered putting the most skilled person at the helm before it was suggested to him. He'd never been on a boat with a "real plotter" and forgot to even consider hitting the MOB button. He was used to sailing boats without motors or that had very small kicker motors and never thought to use the 75hp that was available to him.

I know this gentleman is NOT typical of the very skilled ASA instructors I have been around. Despite all of his credentials, he clearly did not have the experience necessary to handle an unplanned fake emergency on a 44' boat with moderately experienced crew (they had only been on small lake boats too). Since this event is still fresh in my mind I thought this a good chance to pass it on. These are the sorts of things that keep me awake at night whenever I OK a charter guest who struggles a little on a sailcheck.


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## groggy

CaribDream said:


> ...We are both ASA Basic Keelboat (101), Coatal Cruising (103), and Bareboat (104) certified. I went on to earn my ASA Navigation (105) certification as well. We have done 4 crewed charters, 3 in the BVI and 1 in the Florida keys.
> ...


Certs are good, but have you actually done any sailing charters with any kind of similar boat where you have been fully in charge?

By that I mean, rent and provision a 30-40 foot boat, brief the crew, do all the checkout stuff, nav the routes, sail it around, deligate roles, dock/anchor/moor it, manage the battery state, deal with the heads etc, then clean and return ir?

If not, that is what the charter company is cautious about. Certs are good, and they demonstrate academic knowledge and seriousness, but experience counts too. Frankly, classes are easy becuase being on a boat with a bunch of other students and instuctors all working hard and demonstraiting skills is very different than sailing with friends and family on your own.

If your resume doent show experience, that is the problem.


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## SVAuspicious

FarCry said:


> He was used to sailing boats without motors or that had very small kicker motors and never thought to use the 75hp that was available to him.


There was a Safety of Life at Sea report on recreational boats published some years ago that captured hundreds of real incidents and what went wrong. Time after time in the flurry of events, starting the engine resulted in wrapping a line around the prop. Now there is crew in the water "over there" and a stuck boat. It's easy to say "make sure all lines are clear" but the reality is that doesn't happen. Sailing back to the MOB should be the first course of action.


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## capecodda

We've chartered with various companies in the BVI's including TMM. Our experience (yours may vary, and this data is a few years old) is that TMM gets slightly older boats than the Moorings and offers them at lower cost than same. This creates some additional risk of maintenance issues, and we've had some, but they generally do a good job. If you charter enough, you will experience a maintenance issue no matter what company you charter from. They are boats just like the ones we own, but used harder.

I recall on our first visit to TMM, they actually took us out for a test sail. We did a couple of tacks and returned to the dock. I remember thinking, good for them actually testing skill level independent of our resume which involved multiple cruising boat ownerships at that time. You see some pretty scary things done on charter boats in the BVI's, and most companies don't appear to check skill levels at all. Other posters are right, you can charter a boat in the BVI's with much less experience than yours.

I'd call them up at the base in the BVI's, talk about my concerns, and ask if you can take the skipper out with you for one day if all is going well, and volunteer that its fine with you if the skipper stays longer if it isn't. See how they react. I suspect they'll have no problem, and you'll be on your way after a day.


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## CaribDream

I very much appreciate all the input I have gotten from everyone here. It has been very helpful. After all this - here is where I am at. I think I should either go forward with the TMM booking accepting the captain for the day or two, or maybe try a 36 with Sunsail. 

My last concerns are - what if the captain feels that I am not good enough, or what if my skills just really aren't up to par. I don't feel that would happen, but it's always possible. If I add the captain for the week, I am the into the cost for a normal crewed charter, but without all the luxury that goes with that high price tag - ie. Top quality chef, food, service, etc. 

I don't think this would be the case, but I am not a risk taker. I methodically approach problems. If I was deemed inadequate there would not only be the monetary consequence but also I would feel like a failure after working so hard towards a goal. Maybe a 36 would lower the risk factor? 

As someone said here, yes I did all the training and have gone step by step, but as he said I have yet to be fully alone and on my own. But then again, at one point or another that has to happen.


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## Irunbird

CaribDream said:


> Sure. I like the idea of a smaller company, better or more individualized service (could be debated either way I suppose). I also like that they offered better prices than the other options I found (40 foot for the same price or less than others 36 foot), while offering free wi-fi which runs about $300ish per week with other companies. On the particular boat we chose, I liked the dual helm and shallow draft. I also prefer to have a dedicated chart plotter. I don't want to use an iPad for a plotter as I just don't wanna worry about it flying around the cockpit by accident.
> 
> TMM also offers a 10% return customer discount which is very attractive. I wish they had a 36... Shorter than 36 looks a little too claustrophobic for our taste and lack the lounging room in the cockpit that we have become accustomed to.


That's exactly why we chartered from TMM a couple of years ago (I think we took Wombat, a Jeanneau 40.3). My experience at the time was really no different than yours, but we had owned a J24 for a couple of years and I crewed on some of the bigger J boats here in Charleston. We had hooked up with a couple (and their 14 yr old son) who had just completed ASA 101, nothing else, and they chartered one of TMM's 36 foot Jeanneau's (which the owner has moved since then) and all of us went out for a 2 hour check-ride the day before we left for our 10-day charter. Realizing the other couple had little experience, my wife decided to ride over with them to our first anchorage (leeward side of Peter Island across the channel) and we're glad she did, as she essentially went through all of ASA 101 with them- turns out their son remembered more about sailing basics than his parents... Even though both boats got back without a scratch (luckily), I can see why they've changed their tune. We saw all sorts of nutty things happening out there on the bigger catamarans from the other charter companies. They are a simple company, and I liked the smaller down-home feel of their crew. I was surprised when I asked the captain who checked us out if we could sail to Anegada, and he said "sure"!

I thought a captain was only $100/day, but maybe their prices have gone up since then. It's possible that during the check ride, you may be able to demonstrate enough of a knowledge-base that they'll wave that requirement... or lessen it to one day.


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## Irunbird

Carib- I'd probably stick with TMM. They are (or at least they were) a very low key operation, and I think they can be swayed to trust you. All dependent on the check ride. The Jeanneau's handle fairly easily- they back up dependably (little prop walk) as they are just a spade rudder with fin keel, and well-powered so maneuvering is fairly easy. Your power boat experience should come in handy as their dock space is fairly tight. The sailing is a cinch there... all visual.


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## CaribDream

Irunbird:1232354 said:


> Carib- I'd probably stick with TMM. They are (or at least they were) a very low key operation, and I think they can be swayed to trust you. All dependent on the check ride. The Jeanneau's handle fairly easily- they back up dependably (little prop walk) as they are just a spade rudder with fin keel, and well-powered so maneuvering is fairly easy. Your power boat experience should come in handy as their dock space is fairly tight. The sailing is a cinch there... all visual.


Thanks. I made my decision. We all have to start somewhere. Onward and upward.


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## SVAuspicious

CaribDream - the following is not to denigrate your experience level at all. Frankly I value judgment over experience.

Still, this (not the bikini) 



 is part of what a charter operator has to worry about. *grin*


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## CaribDream

SVAuspicious:1232914 said:


> CaribDream - the following is not to denigrate your experience level at all. Frankly I value judgment over experience.
> 
> Still, this (not the bikini) "Ode to the Credit Card Captains", Anegada, British Virgin Islands, Caribbean - YouTube is part of what a charter operator has to worry about. *grin*


No offense taken at all. I literally have nightmares about that video. I have seen that video seemingly hundreds of times and I still ask why why why anyone would go into a crowded mooring field with sails up etc. Especially in Anegada. Yikes. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm sure I wouldn't do that.


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## ltgoshen

An expert in no more or less "a drip under pressure!"


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## FarCry

SVAuspicious said:


> There was a Safety of Life at Sea report on recreational boats published some years ago that captured hundreds of real incidents and what went wrong. Time after time in the flurry of events, starting the engine resulted in wrapping a line around the prop. Now there is crew in the water "over there" and a stuck boat. It's easy to say "make sure all lines are clear" but the reality is that doesn't happen. Sailing back to the MOB should be the first course of action.


I have no reason to question the report you recall. I am confused however. If you are on a sailboat, you start the engine and wrap the dinghy painter, aren't you still on a sailboat? Why are you stuck? You still have sails and a rudder and a dinghy that can be cut free which in our fleet, is a very fast rescue vessel.

I perhaps didn't make my point well late last night when I posted. Referring back to my post: If what you are doing is not working, try something else. First putting the boat in irons and then ending up hove to is not an indication of sailing skill with a MOB +200yds behind the boat. If you are a skilled sailor with a good crew on the boat you find yourself on, sail back. But doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of something. As I clearly stated he did try to sail back to the MOB first and did a very poor job of it. Can we agree that it does come down to skills? If you can't sail well enough to get back to a MOB in a reasonable amount of time but are very good at handling a boat under power, why not fire up the main engine(s)? On charter catamarans, that would seem even more obvious. In our fleet of cats all dinghies are in davits, no lines are in the water. I end up doing a fair number of unplanned MOBs every month with crew I've only met an hour or two prior. Lost hats, flip flops and fenders (which are really hard to grab) fall overboard all the time. Some I sail to. Some I motor to. Some I use a combination of both. One must be very fast to get most hats before they sink! I think people should do whatever they need to do to get to a person in the water and safely retrieve them as fast as possible, period, no rules, just get it done. If that means turning all the sheets loose and flogging the sails while motoring back, do it!

When I am skipper during my safety briefing I give a standing order to all on board. That is, "No one is allowed into the water until the boat is moored or anchored, the engine(s) are off and you have asked me for permission". That directive alone should be enough to prevent a MOB and the rest of this becomes fodder for endless debate. What do you think the best anchor is for a MOB? :laugher


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## Minnewaska

Give Ed Hamilton a call. They are charter brokers and know every operation on the island. They can give you the ups and downs and assess each for you to be sure you aren't hassled for you experience level. They are the same cost as going direct, sometime even a bit lower. They must get a vig from the charter company. We used them last we went.

Tortola, British Virgin Islands  Virgin Islands Yacht Charter Charters Virgin Islands Sailing Charter Boat Charters

They also suggested Horizon Charters and we were very pleased with them. Boats in good repair (although every charter has something break) and folks were very helpful. I also highly preferred sailing out of Nanny Cay over Road Town.

Horizon Yacht Charters - BVI Sailing Vacations


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## benesailor

CaribDream, Like you said, you have to start somewhere. I think you understand all the risks involved with a bigger boat. Just from your answers i feel confident that you have a head on your shoulders. 
Just remember; bigger boats can maim or kill easier. They are much heavier than a 18' daysailor. Tell people during your safety brief about rigging loads (lost fingers), docking maneuvers (pinched hands and legs trying to fend off) and getting hit by the boat during a MOB (hull slamming in rough seas). Amongst other things. With bigger comes more respect with increased risks involved. Don't assign tasks to individuals unless you are sure they can handle them. 

Have Fun!


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## CaribDream

benesailor:1235202 said:


> CaribDream, Like you said, you have to start somewhere. I think you understand all the risks involved with a bigger boat. Just from your answers i feel confident that you have a head on your shoulders.
> Just remember; bigger boats can maim or kill easier. They are much heavier than a 18' daysailor. Tell people during your safety brief about rigging loads (lost fingers), docking maneuvers (pinched hands and legs trying to fend off) and getting hit by the boat during a MOB (hull slamming in rough seas). Amongst other things. With bigger comes more respect with increased risks involved. Don't assign tasks to individuals unless you are sure they can handle them.
> 
> Have Fun!


Thanks for that. Agreed - this time is going to be my wife and I only. This way I only have to watch out for her and myself instead of other couples too. I at least know she has done this before and has gone through the same training as me. The less extraneous things I need to be responsible for will allow me to concentrate more on just the sailing/operations at hand. Maybe next time we'll take someone with us.

On a side note - during our last charter a block at the base of the mast failed while I was putting the last tension on the main halyard under the direction of my captain. That is an event I will never forget and because of that I always make sure no one is standing over that line when the main is raised. That thing would have cut a man in half. Reading about that type of failure vs seeing it does it no justice.


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## Geoff54

CaribDream said:


> No offense taken at all. I literally have nightmares about that video. I have seen that video seemingly hundreds of times and I still ask why why why anyone would go into a crowded mooring field with sails up etc. Especially in Anegada. Yikes. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm sure I wouldn't do that.


He fouled his prop inside the mooring field (not sure how) and and tried to raise the sails and sail out of trouble - didn't work very well. The rest is in the video.


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## groggy

CaribDream said:


> ...
> As someone said here, yes I did all the training and have gone step by step, but as he said I have yet to be fully alone and on my own. But then again, at one point or another that has to happen.


some of the charting schools require that bareboat students have done some minimum number of charters on the boats that their 103/Basic cruising qualifies them for as a prerequisite to taking 104/bareboat, in order to reduce potential disparity between certifications and experience.

Some students bristle at the idea of having to do this, perhaps concerned that it is just a ploy to get more charters out of the students, but for many people it is a good way to figure out what one needs to work on.


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## ltgoshen

Are the prices based per person or do they include 4 people? like on a 2 cabin 2 head boat is the price person of for the boat itself?


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## Minnewaska

If you're asking how bareboat prices are set, they are for the boat, with a maximum number of passengers. You can bring as few or as many as you like.

Economically, it's always a pretty good deal to split a bareboat with another couple. Practically, boats do not accommodate the maximum publish passengers well. Some bunks will be pretty inferior, but more importantly, it's hard to store enough in the fridge when you go past six.


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## Minnesail

Minnewaska said:


> more importantly, it's hard to store enough in the fridge when you go past six.


Word.

And don't forget the holding tank. For some reason Jeannneau thinks it's OK to put a 13 gallon holding tank in a boat with three cabins.


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## FarCry

Minnesail said:


> And don't forget the holding tank. For some reason Jeannneau thinks it's OK to put a 13 gallon holding tank in a boat with three cabins.


More than half of the restroom visits could be handled while swimming, snorkeling and "cruiser showering". Just sayin'

At 7kts it should take less than 30 minutes to be 3 miles off shore to dump the tanks too...

And I am NOT defending the tank size, just providing some ways to deal with it effectively.


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## PCP

SVAuspicious said:


> CaribDream - the following is not to denigrate your experience level at all. Frankly I value judgment over experience.
> 
> Still, this (not the bikini) "Ode to the Credit Card Captains", Anegada, British Virgin Islands, Caribbean - YouTube is part of what a charter operator has to worry about. *grin*


Funny thing is that the boat is called "Ciello de Dios" and around here when we see something like that we say "Deus do ceu!!!!" that is just an inversion of the boat name

Some years ago on a perfect anchorage in Croatia with a good sandy bottom, pretty crowded, we saw some guys that arrived after dark and tred to anchor with a pretty normal anchor.

They let go the anchor and pulled backwards at full speed among frightened boaters. They tried in all directions independently to the wind direction. They moved always the boat so fast that the anchor and not a chance to set.

After half an hour everybody was on the cockpits seeing the show and hopping that they did not come close. Finally to the relief of everybody they went to the small marina and after many shouts and bangs, finally we saw the mast stand still. They had finally managed, or someone for them, to moor the boat.

Regards

Paulo


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