# Make offer or run away?



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

All,

I am looking to the forum for advice....

In my current search for a boat I have come across a boat that has been on the hard for the past 2+ years. The boat is a mid 1980s Pearson, and the broker/owner is asking ~70K. This is in line with the asking price for similar boats.

Other boats, however, are in the water, and surveyable/sailable. This boat has had the keel stepped mast, the dodger, and all rigging removed and stowed. I was not able to see the sails, but the mast looks OK, and there is a relatively new rollerfurler stowed on top of the boat. The owner has it parked in his driveway, and has an extension cord run to his garage to keep the batteries charged. The fuel guage reads 1/4 (full of what?), the Batteries are 4 + years old, and the electronics are _ancient _(oldest Garmin GPS I've ever seen, a handheld VHF (that looks like a brick-phone), non-functional radar, and Loran). Otherwise the hull looks sound, and the interior is relatively clean. It has a Yanmar 30Hp that looks a somewhat rusty, but OK. I didn't check the Oil or the coolant when I looked at it, butI doubt that they would tell me anything about the boat... The boat has refrigeration, and an old vertical windlass, neither of which I want (I _would _like a horizontal windlass). Judging by the overall condition of the boat, I would guess that everything was OK when the boat was pulled from the water and put away.

I am sure that another factor is that the owner's house has a For Sale sign in front of it, although the broker didn't seem to know anything about that....

The broker's suggestion is that any offer include an escrow for things that a surveyor can't inspect - like the _engine_ (which has been sitting for at least 2 years), electrics, and the holding tanks. It's nice to know that he's looking out for me.  I might as well put an escrow reserve on the hull.

Part of me wants to make an offer on the boat (for like 1/2 the asking price) and tell them to forget the survey / escrow. Another part of me says to run away and keep shoppin'.

Any thoughts?

Ed


----------



## conchcruzer (Aug 18, 2004)

My $0.02: This is a project boat. If you are interested in a project boat, then go ahead and pitch a low-ball offer. If you want to go sailing or cruising in the forseeable future, keep shopping. 

As far as electronics, you might as well consider it as a boat with no electronics. 

Whatever is in the fuel tank should be discarded and the tank thoroughly cleaned. Is it possible to clean this tank? What access does it have? 

There are a thousand unknowns. I personally would not want to purchase a boat that I had not sea-trialed. 

Good luck (and good shopping.)


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

*wow!*

That's allot of moola! You didn't say what size Pearson it is for that price, hope it's over 35 ft! On the other hand you could lowball the bid and walk.. If you fall in love with a boat your emotions will be on your shoulder when you try to negotiate  (been there done that) There are thousands of boats out there! Buyers market! If a Broker really wants to make the sale they should be somewhat willing to make you happy. It's not like people are standing in line to buy said boat! When out of the water you can at least seel the hull below the water line. A boat in the water has to be pulled of course. (and they hate that!) You can inssist on many many things if you really want this Pearson. I don't think I would buy anything without a survey either. But of course no one wants to pay then find out they shouldn't buy it. So it's best to be really educated about boats when shopping. take tools. lights, have the engine run off garden hose if you have to. But insist. Personally I love Pearsons even though I have an Oday. I can't help but wonder if I will somday have a Pearson 35CB if I decide to live aboard. 
Good luck!


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I agree with the Conchcruzer. Basically, you would be taking on all the hassle and risk because the owner is not willing to put the boat into full commission and properly show it for sale in the water. Commissioning a boat in that condition will be a major undertaking, not even counting all the unknowns. And when you're spending that kind of money, a test-sail prior to consummating the deal is a must.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I say ask $35k or walk away. just my .02


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

I say keep looking. Lots of boats for sale, no reason to buy anything you have the slightest doubts about.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I agree with the comment above, walk away! I would never buy a boat without a survey and even at $35k the cost of repairs could eat you up.


----------



## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

The good news is that electronics are cheap now. The bad news is that if the owner had this boat since early 80's he/she will think a Loran is worth $6000

I agree - bid low and take it for project or walk away. Might be a big project - but hey - I took day off to rip out a door and frame in house and replace with studs & drywall - so I am crazy anyway


----------



## jldooley (Aug 1, 2007)

Since you asked,

dump the broker. call the 'house for sale' number ask to come by to look at the boat personally. Show up with 15,000 in cash and guarantee to move the boat within the next 24 hours. 

Be careful with this advise becasue I bet he /she takes it. 

if the owner starts saying the boat is worth 100k bla bla just walk away. knowing there is no way your going to come to an agreement. there are many more boats out there...

dont let emotions play a part in this decision, you are not robbing him. you are providing a service to him by removing this boat. remember he will have to pay to have this boat moved and stored, after all No one will buy his house with a 'boat on blocks' parked in the front yard.


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

You don't want a boat project (unless you do). Trust me. 

The classic line to the question 'I bet if I offered him xxx for that piece of crap he'd take it.' is... 'ya, but then it you'd have it.'


----------



## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

He wants too much, walk away. The american market is soft right now. Sales have fallen 50% since last year. That info comes from a broker friend of mine. Now is the time to pay much less and get something that does not need much work. Boats less than 4 years old are still at a premium. Buy what you want, not what looks like a bargain.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*What was I thinkun?*

Thanks to all of you that have replied so far...

Sometimes I think that I ought to have my head examined

The more that I think about this situation, the angrier I get 

Maybe I can save you all some trouble...

Here is the FULL poop on this boat:
The listing that initially aroused my interest in this boat was this;
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1749671
"...has been lovingly maintainted and upgraded by her owners. She shows very, very well."

So, I call the broker to arrange to see her, and he tells me that she is not in the water, but is currently on the hard in the owner's yard, and has not been launched this year. The pictures are from when the boat was last listed.

So, I show up and he tells me that the boat hasn't been in the water this year, or last year. Here is what I see:








I doubt that she was in the water three years ago...

Here is a closeup of the mast, boom, and rollerfurler; 









Climbing aboard, here is a view of the deck facing forward; 








and aft:










Down below, here is the interior; 








Head; 








and Engine; 









What burns me here is that the listing in YW is NO REFLECTION of the CURRENT condition of the boat! I believe that the term for this is "bait-and-switch."

Anyway, thank you all for all your advice.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

wow. it's a beautiful boat inside! but 69 k is high way high. doesn't look like it would much of a project. paint on the engine hoses? My guess it's been out or refurbed or at least painted to look newer. yanmars are pretty reliable engines though. I can see why you want the boat. Low ball it. there are plenty of other pearsons out there. He's gotta sell. you already know that. 
How far from the water is it? Yards move and rig boats everyday it's not even an issue in that dept. 
good luck!


----------



## jldooley (Aug 1, 2007)

why get angry? 

part of buying a used boat is the fun of deciding 
What the boat is worth to you; as it is: where it is ??? 
offer this much and be ready to walk away.

but as said before, you're going to buy it for this price. So the next question is: what is the boat worth to you where it is as it is?


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Actually, I like the looks of this boat overall...looks just a bit neglected to me but with prior good care. The owner is in a NEED to sell position and this is a solid well respected boat. If you can get the boat for 50 with a hold back of 15K AFTER dry survey pending sea trial to cover any gross engine problems you could have a good boat and a great deal.


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

From the pictures I have fewer reservations, but still think you should make the deal contingent on a sea trial and survey and lowball the heck out of it.

If you do make an offer on the boat make sure you are embarrassed by it, otherwise you aren't truely lowballing it.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Dooley's advice is sound. This is not a boat that is likely to be in sailaway condition, nor may it even float on its own bottom if the thru-hulls are compromised. My 33 footer is in excellent condition (except cosmetically!) for a 1973 boat with a 2005 rebuilt engine, and I wouldn't expect more than 20K for it.

I could get a beat-up C&C 41 for $70K if I looked hard enough. No Pearson in the 30-39 foot range is worth that. I just saw a good to go, completely restored Pearson 390 CC for $50K on Yachtworld...I happen to think they are really ugly boats, but they are as solidly built and nicely sailing as any pre-oil-crisis coastal cruiser.

The broker's on crack. Maybe tell them "throw in the house, and I'll give you $70K!"

EDIT: The Pearson I mentioned is $38K and is in better shape...and is a customized pilothouse with a Lavac!:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...s=Feet&currencyid=1005&checked_boats=1775542&

























Gee, I could be a broker!


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

As I said in my earlier post; "What burns me here is that the listing in YW is NO REFLECTION of the CURRENT condition of the boat!" How much effort is there in creating a NEW listing with CURRENT pictures? Isn't this part of what the broker collects their comission for?!?

Initially, I didn't want to add my second post for fear of embarassing the broker, but I decided that the post was actually doing them a favor.

I agree that the boat looks good. The problem is just that there is no way in this situation to be sure. EVERYTHING on this vessel has been sitting for over 2 years.

I expected this to turn into a discussion of the effects of sea air and New England winters on the various electrical and mechanical systems on the boat. (the house is on the water by the way [it's georgous too], but over a mile from where it could be splashed).

Remember too that the owner is leaving town.

I may still make an offer, and you can guess where my head is at. (As for the throw in the house for $70K pitch, the owner is askin $5M for the house.) If any of you wants to contact the guy, go for it. As I have said in other posts, there will *always* be another boat...

Thanks,

Ed


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

My opinion on buying boats is:

If you question or are not sure...walk away...only buy what you're sure of.


----------



## 7Psych (Aug 28, 2007)

Run....TOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many unknowns and a boat left in that condition to sit for two years reflaects how the owner really cared about her. One can only imagine how it was maintained just looking at her current state. There are way too many decent boats for sale that actually work and need no readiness except where to go next...My advice is to trash this one...


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Although cosmeticly she looks good it's the non-cosmetic things that will kill you. Way over priced and I still say walk away.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Seriously, I bet that the owner would get $70K more for the house without the boat, and all the ladders and assorted other crap underneath her in the driveway. He ought to _give _her to me! 

If he does, I'll promise to take her, sail to Toronto, and show Valiente just how nice a Pearson can be.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

This is deja vu all over again. Except for the make and model, yours is the story of my boat purchase, right down to the age and asking price. When I bought my boat I was sent pictures of her that showed her in very clean condition. The pictures were evidently taken right after she was hauled out of the water. In the meantime the boat had sat for at least a year and had been overgown with weeds and just plain looked neglected. She had been unloaded and parts of her were stored in various locations around the owner's house. The words clean would not apply anymore. 

When I went up to look at her, it became a process of trying to determine what was simply in need of clean up, and what was in need of replacement within the short run. Its easy to get emotional when you expect to find a clean boat and find a boat that appears to be a mess but the only way that you can get to a fair deal is to think things through carefully. For example, I ran the engine with the intake in a bucket and a garden hose filling the bucket so my deal had an escrow for the transmission condition. I planned on replacing the cutlass bearing since they seem to dry rot when out of the water for long periods. Similarly I powered up the instruments that were installed, but escrowed money for the wind instruments, depth sounder, & radios. 

There was real work cleaning up the boat and getting everything put back together but it was managable and not that much more extreme than getting to know any used boat that has sat on the hard or which has been shipped by truck. 

In any event, in my case the asking price came down quite substantially, but the cosmetic condition that resulted from sitting had only a small role in that. My one key piece of advice is to try to figure out what this boat is worth cleaned up and there is the rub. I suspect that sales prices for a truely cleab version would be in the mid to high-$50K range and this should be well below that, especially since you will need to use a hydraulic truck to get the boat out of there. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Thank you, Jeff, for the advice on the cutlass bearing, and the transmission. As was said earlier, I will consider this a boat without electronics, just holes where they should be (and some historical artifacts).

Did I mention that this boat has been for sale for 2+ years?


----------



## painters (Sep 6, 2007)

Now that I'm back in the used boat market having not owned one for 5 years I think it looks like a buyers market. I sold my last boat and didn't look at yachtworld for at least 5 years. I think there are a lot more boats for sale then buyers. Maybe you like trouble, I'm sure I do I'm looking again


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd walk away. Two years of neglect can be very costly to repair, and it sounds like she was neglected for whatever reason for at least the last two years.


----------



## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Two years! That means one of two things, either its way overpriced, or there is something wrong with it (or both). If my boat was up for sale that long, I would not neglect her, I would take care of her. I actually would not let it sit that long, I would put it back in the water and sail her. That says something about the owner and how the boat was taken care of previously. No way, there is something wrong here. Don't even waste your time low balling, just walk away. Like I said, the market is way off, take your time. When I was looking, there were a bunch of neglected boats a a certain yard. The brokers adds all said the same thing, "great boat, great condition, blah, blah, blah". I passed and those boats are still sitting there, neglected, great boats once upon a time, but neglected now. Its a long way back in boat dollars.


----------



## 121Guy (May 6, 2007)

Hi,

Our dock mate has this same boat except deep draft and I have crawled through her a lot. I'm very impressed with the quality of the whole package.

They don't build them like this anymore.

My advice is to make a list of what the worst case might be......

engine seized
standing rigging needs replacement
water in deck
electronics all need replacing
all pumps replaced
new cutless bearing 
sails shot

then ask yourself at what price would I be happy owning the boat and still be happy after sealing with the list items....

She is too new to be a give away.....and it is the softest used mid sized boat market I've seen for quite some time. I hope to be in it shortly on the buy side!

After all the gymnastics, I'd think a deal in the low 40's sounds about right.....with maybe the knowledge that you may have to put 20K to 30K into her. 

In the high 60's all done......a heck of a boat, if she is all right.

Good luck!


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Bear in mind I'm a pessimist so if I'm wrong, that's a pleasant surprise. 

I'd say most batteries plugged into a household charger/cord for multiple years are probably a write-off, unless they were on a 3-4 stager charger the whole time and someone was also equalizing them and checking the water. Assume they are a loss.

Transporting the boat to a yard and then rigging it--and checking for incidentals, and if the rigging is original it needs replacing anyway ($8-10,000?) and the fuel tank needs draining and polishing after two years if it wasn't topped off, pickled and sealed...and the engine may not have been pockled properly on layaway so it may need some work, like sending the injectors out for cleaning at least...

I'd try to figure out the comparable price on a boat in the water and ready to sail. Deduct all the expenses of getting this one into the water and rigged, and then make you offer for that "deducted" price, less another sum representing all the time you'll have to put into it.

THEN also make that subject to escrow for sea trials and survey, since you have no idea how the boat will show up other problems once it hits the water.

Obviously if the owner is selling house & boat they want to SELL the boat. Don't be afraid to offer what you think it is worth--even if that's substantially less. Do make sure to provide for sufficient escrow to make sure of anything you can't find out until it is sailing and the boat has been out for a long shakedown cruise.

Could wind up being a bargain--because a lot of buyers just don't want to play "what if" that deeply.


----------



## jackytdunaway (Sep 11, 2006)

i think it is nice looking boat and i am partial to Pearsons. low ball it and get a survey with sea trial as part of it. if he has to move it maybe he will split the cost of the survey if you have to walk away. It doen't hurt to try.


----------



## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Walk, walk, walk.

There is enough trouble in the world without buying it.

Get yourself a Union 36 for that sort of money.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*Polling results...*

As I see it the choices are Run or Negotiate. If I give everyone one vote, and if you vote more than once, and the votes are contradictory, they cancel out: here are the totals that I come up with so far; 
In the walk camp we have: Gui (thanks to the European contingent for weighing in on this ), 7Psych, Rocketer, HelloSailor, BestFriend, SailingDog, Teshannon. That's 7

And, in the negotiate camp; Denise, MikeHoyt, USPirate, JohnRPollard, ConchCruiser, JackyTDunaway, 121Guy, Jeff_H, Valiente (although he thinks it's a bugly boat), and Cam. That's 10

JLDooley and Tenuki have lobbied for both sides 

If I factor in rep points, I'll go crazy...

Thanks for helping me out on this!

Ed


----------



## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Negotiate. With an asking price and potential market value of near $70k, you've got a lot of room for negotiations. As long as you get it for a substantial discount (several 10's of thousands or more dollars), you'll be ok. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

kwaltersmi

Its more like this, a plain vanilla, somewhat dated, so-so sailing, mid-level quality, early 1980's, 36 footer in a down market for rough boats (clean, quality boats are actually selling pretty briskly at the same or higher prices than they had been a year or two ago), worth perhaps in the high $50K range. 

From my perspective, for this deal, to make any sense at all, you need to really want this particular model, don't mind expending a bunch of sweat equity and some cash cleaning the ole girl up, and you can't find another cleaner, better equipped sistership within easy shipping distance to where you live except at an exceptionally higher prices (say $20k higher). Otherwise, there are a lot better boats or if you have your heart set on one of these then better equipped sisterships at similar or cheaper prices out there. 

Jeff


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

That's it....void Jeff's vote.....


----------



## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Forgive me for being a desenter but boats age better sitting in the driveway then sitting in saltwater. That being saidhe wants too much for the boat. lowball and live with the answer.
pigslo


----------



## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

I will chime in here. If your asking the question, you probably already know the answer. For my money, I would give a low offer then make myself look at every other boat in that size that is remotely close to your area and requirements. Doing the last bit is the part that will let you know there are plenty of other boats out there. You may find something that you would like better for the same or less.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

eherlihy said:


> Seriously, I bet that the owner would get $70K more for the house without the boat, and all the ladders and assorted other crap underneath her in the driveway. He ought to _give _her to me!
> 
> If he does, I'll promise to take her, sail to Toronto, and show Valiente just how nice a Pearson can be.


I know exactly how nice a Pearson can be. A friend bought a nice 1977 Pearson 30 for $10K last year and it's cleaning up nicely. A very fair price for a very good Lake Ontario recreational boat. That's why $10K per foot more for a 36 footer in less than ideal condition is nuts. That's a Bayfield or a PSC 37 price.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

eherlihy said:


> Valiente (although he thinks it's a bugly boat)


No, I think the Pearson 39 I pointed out (and posted a $38K listing for with new sails and a new engine in it!) is funny looking, but the custom pilot house redeems it for me.

The Pearson 36 looks like half a dozen other boats of that era: vaguely IORish, but built to club race with a 130 PHRF or so. I like that boat because I am familiar with the type (C&C, CS 36, older Catalinas, etc.).

It's not the boat, it's the deal I find smelly. Although the boat probably needs an airing out.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> "...has been lovingly maintainted and upgraded by her owners. She shows very, very well."
> 
> So, I call the broker to arrange to see her, and he tells me that she is not in the water, but is currently on the hard in the owner's yard, and has not been launched this year. The pictures are from when the boat was last listed.
> 
> So, I show up and he tells me that the boat hasn't been in the water this year, or last year...


Personally, I would walk as there are a lot of other boats out there, but I'd also walk because the broker that you're delaing with is either dishonest, or an idiot.

I think that the BS he put in the listing is just the first of many untruths that he is perpared to try to snow you with throughout the whole purchase process. I would find it difficult to trust anything he said, and if you do have any dealings with him, I suggest that you have your own attoirney vet any documents before you sign them.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Just one thing that has not been looked at yet. Im sure that you can do the old lowball n walk or even consider the boat that Valiente pointed out as a viable option . But heres my question " do you love this boat ?" If there is no wow-factor in this boat, and after reading your anger comments , there doesnt seem to be. Maybe this is not the one . Im a bloody pathetic romantic when it comes to sailboats so this is not advice its just food for thought. If I cant see myself on the boat with the wife n kids having a blast , on a beam reach heading into the sunset in the very near future , not spending every free moment rebuilding someone elses headaches . Unless I was totaly madly blown over by the boat and could justify the effort , cash ,time and heartache . Id walk ,there ya go two cents worth of mush for ya ta play with


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente said:


> I know exactly how nice a Pearson can be. A friend bought a nice 1977 Pearson 30 for $10K last year and it's cleaning up nicely. A very fair price for a very good Lake Ontario recreational boat. That's why $10K per foot more for a 36 footer in less than ideal condition is nuts. That's a Bayfield or a PSC 37 price.


Umm... $10K per foot would put this puppy up at $360,000. I think you mean $1,000 / foot. 

BTW, I agree with raggabagga... you gotta love your boat.


----------



## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*make offer*

Hello,

If you like the boat make an offer.

Don't worry about the costs of commissioning the boat, that is the OWNER's responsibility. Since the boat is represented by a broker, the standard terms should apply: the offer is contingent on the boat passing a survey, all systems should be operational, the BUYER is allowed to inspect and operate the boat, etc.

If you like the boat, make an offer. If the offer is accepted, the owner will have the boat commissioned, and you can have the boat surveyed. If something doesn't work, the owner is responsible for making it work (or you can work out an adjustment on the price).

Do note that if you decide to walk away after the boat has been launched, you are responsible for the cost of the haul and store. So if you are interested, be sure to know that cost ahead of time.

My own $.02. It looks like a nice boat. The asking price is high, but most boats start out that way.

If you really like the Pearson 36, look at the one at McMicael. I bought a boat from them and they were straight shooters.

Good luck,
Barry


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Ed, I didn't say walk, I don't know how you got me in that camp. I'd say to make the offer--but only after very carefully doing the math, and only if you know how extensive the whole job might be.

Brokers? Listings? Yeah, most of them are just like used-car salesmen. If they won't put it in writing, they didn't say it.


----------



## jldooley (Aug 1, 2007)

Ed,

Please let us know what you decide. 

Since I 'm cancelled out of the vote for being on both sides...

Let me examine what I have heard so far or what I think I have heard 

In my opinion this boat owner is a negotiator / professional sales man / or a fool. He is offering to sell his home for 5m his boat at 70k. He knows the market for both is in decline and he is either willing to come down on his asking price or he is angry and is not ready to sell (see #1) 

The owner has over priced his stuff and this appears to indicate he is willing to come down a lot to sell (he wants to sell right now and not have his time wasted with b.s. .High asking price = serious people with money as it discourages the time wasting lookers) He is hoping (dreaming actually) some fool shows up lots of cash with a small brain who’s emotions have gotten the best of him/ her. 

Lets examine his (owners) motivations 1. getting a divorce has been told to sell, doesn’t want to sell, hasn’t been made to sell just Yet ( you walk away) or 2. going bankrupt facing foreclosure must sell now or loose all his escrow, he needs cash now 3. moving to a retirement home, needs cash now. In any case he has been selling for 2 years and he is ready for a change. 

Bottom line, he cannot take his boat with him whatever is happening to him.

This appears to be a nice boat. If I wanted a boat this size or was closer to it, I would show up with the movers and 15k in cash having arranged a place to store it. I would gamble. If I loose, I could still get my money back once the boat is in the water.

Far too many people buy old cheep boats and sink 100k-500k more than its worth just to get them in sailable condition. Only to realize they could have bought a new boat in this ‘fixed’ condition and saved money and time. 

I covered both sides of the fence because your going to do what you want to do. 

So what did you do??

Best of luck dooley


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*Will she float?*

All,

I would like to express my sincerest grattitude to everyone that has weighed in on this (even Gui) . Sailnet ROCKS! 

With regard to the voting - Lessee, I had 10 Negotiate and 7 Walk. If I move HelloSailor to the Negotiate camp, and update to reflect the last few posts:

Negotiate: 11 plus: Pigslo, Kwaltersmi, Danjarch, and BarryL = 15
Walk: 6 plus Sailormann = 7

Almost 2:1 in favor of Negotiate.

Regarding emotions: Remember that the broker works for the seller. Part of the broker's role is to hide, and protect the seller's emotions. That's why I met with the broker, and not the seller. In general, the broker does not want the seller to meet the buyer. He dosn't want a potential buyer to know the seller's motivation, or why there is a for sale sign in front of the house .

My anger was directed at whomever put the listing in YW with the pictures from when the boat was comissioned, looking lovely in the water. Looking at a boat with the mast, rigging and canvas installed, is a long way away from the boat I saw. I sent the broker an email asking if any of the pictured stuff still existed. He checked with the owner, and replied that they were in the guys attic.

I could guess that the seller and broker really aren't too interested in selling the boat if they can't be bothered to show all the components (some assembly required) that are included in the sale. Why waste my time ?? Maybe the guy is really busy... Maybe that is why the boat has been sitting for 2+ years...

An objective in the first, and subsequent posts has been to put aside my emotions. I am looking to all of you to help me see things rationally. I have been in sales long enough to know that people buy emotionally, and rationalize intellectually. Another aspect of the broker's job is to point out all the good stuff, and when a prospect responds to something, to build on that. My questions to the broker are, and will be, yes/no questions.

This is an open forum. The broker, and the owner may be reading these posts as well as any of us. Frankly, I hope that they are. If so, he/they knows that all of us think that this boat is way over priced, with a boat-load (sorry) of unknowns. Despite the fact that the seller wasted my time with the first showing, I _could_ be tempted to make things easier on the seller an not make the sale contingent on survey and sea trial. If he get's an buyer interested in the house, I am sure that he will wish that he had. However, I am not going to take on this risk without some potential reward.

Here are the facts as I see them:

A 1986 Pearson 36-2 Centerboard, fully comissioned, and in Excellent Condition, with current electronics in fall 2007 is worth ~$65K. The replies to the original post seem to bear this out. I KNOW that a 1991 Pearson 38 (same basic boat with a longer transom) in Excellent condition sold last year for less than ~$79K. If you look in YachtWorld, you will see that *asking *prices for P36-2s run from 47K to 97K (and that there is no interest in the $90K boats).

This boat:
Engine - Condition: Unknown - subtract $12K for rebuild
Transmission - Condition: Unknown - subtract $5K for rebuild
Electronics - Condition O*L*D (ancient) - subtract $4K to replace with current Chartplotter/Depthsounder installed, 
Electronics - subtract $1K for good VHF with DSC
Batteries - Condition nearing end of useful life, $2K (Rolls batteries are expensive)
Transport and re-comissioning - subtract $8K
Cutlass Bearing - subtract $1K
Fuel Tank Clean and waste disposal - subtract $1K
New head (nobody commented on the green and brown under the toilet ) and bladder tank and *all* hoses - subtract $1K

Am I on target here?

If so, it looks like the boat is worth ~$30K if the hull and interior are in Excellent condition.

I *am* emotionally fixated on Pearsons, just not this one.

Thanks again!

Ed


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

I lobbied for both sides because I'm the voice of reason and the OP is gonna do whatever he wants anyway. I said if you offer, at least lowball the heck out of it.  My 'vote' is walk away, always has been.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Ed-
On track? Who knows.[g]

"Engine - Condition: Unknown - subtract $12K for rebuild
Transmission - Condition: Unknown - subtract $5K for rebuild"
Not so much subtractions--but since there's no way to test them until seat trials, and you can't do that without "some assembly required"...perhaps $15,000 in escrow against their performance is not unreasonable.

"Electronics - "
Electronics on any boat over ten years old are probably not worth anything, nice if they work, but certainly you can't expect an old boat to have new electronics on it. It's more like a hundred bucks if there's a VHF or not, and maybe $1500 if there's any working instruments.

"Batteries - " Rolls are NOT typical batteries. You'd probably be comparing this boat to similar boats with a pair of Group 27's or Group 31's as "normal". The Rolls are a bonus worth more--if they aren't shot. A discharge cycle and a hydrometer might tell you more, as will sea trials.

"Transport and re-comissioning - subtract $8K"
Yeah, that's a bear. Someone has to figure out who's gonna do the assembly and pay for it. Options include, you do it, or hire it out--and if the boat doesn't pass sea trials or the deal falls through because of failures...he pays for it. Or you do it--and deduct that amount form the sale if it works, and risk walking away if it doesn't. Whatever you two can agree on as mutually balanced. Of course, if he just says "I'll send it down and have it assembled" realize he's going to expect a higher price.

"Cutlass Bearing - subtract $1K" What, for a bearing and an hour or two pulling it out? No way.

"Fuel Tank Clean and waste disposal - subtract $1K" I doubt it would be that high, but you'll need to shop locally.

"New head (nobody commented on the green and brown under the toilet ) and bladder tank and *all* hoses - subtract $1K" Used boats often have used heads that need replacement. Another matter for survey, escrow, and final dickering but a thousand bucks sounds like you expect boatyard labor to do the work for you. Not on a used boat--you're on your own for that.

By the way, if this thing is on a trailer--is is roadworthy and street legal? Or will you have to call a transporter company just to move the boat?


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanks HS!

I appreciate your patience with me...



> "Engine ...- $15,000 in escrow against their performance is not unreasonable."


 My thought was that the owner may not want to escrow anything, and just want the boat out of the driveway so that he could sell his house. I was deducting $17K. So, what do you think would be _reasonable_ to deduct, and not escrow?



> Electronics on any boat over ten years old are probably not worth anything, nice if they work, but certainly you can't expect an old boat to have new electronics on it.


 Ok - forget this.



> "Batteries - " Rolls are NOT typical batteries.


 Ok - forget these too.



> Transport and re-comissioning - subtract $8K"
> Yeah, that's a bear. Someone has to figure out who's gonna do the assembly and pay for it. Options include, you do it, or hire it out--and if the boat doesn't pass sea trials or the deal falls through because of failures...he pays for it. Or you do it--and deduct that amount form the sale if it works, and risk walking away if it doesn't. Whatever you two can agree on as mutually balanced. Of course, if he just says "I'll send it down and have it assembled" realize he's going to expect a higher price.


 Uh, no way! I found an advertisement that included a picture of an assembled boat. Nothing in the ad, or my initial discussion with the broker said it was decomissioned. I believe that this is the owner's or broker's responsibility. Bottom line - I walk on this issue alone.



> "Cutlass Bearing - subtract $1K" What, for a bearing and an hour or two pulling it out? No way.


  Too high? Too low? help me out here.... I have never done this, nor do I know anyone else that has.



> "Fuel Tank Clean and waste disposal - subtract $1K" I doubt it would be that high, but you'll need to shop locally.


 Ok, forget that.



> "New head (nobody commented on the green and brown under the toilet ) and bladder tank and *all* hoses - subtract $1K" Used boats often have used heads that need replacement. Another matter for survey, escrow, and final dickering but a thousand bucks sounds like you expect boatyard labor to do the work for you. Not on a used boat--you're on your own for that.


 Ok, forget that too.

If I scratch the above items, my math tells me that she's worth $37K.



> By the way, if this thing is on a trailer--is is roadworthy and street legal? Or will you have to call a transporter company just to move the boat?


 This is a 36' boat with a 5' draft. This project has to be transported professionally.


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

if I have that big of a spreadsheet on a boat, I'd walk. geez, bub, the woulda's, coulda's, shoulda's alone tell me to walk. 

ok, so the boat is in his driveway, it had to get there without the mast up, eh? so what, you'll have to transport it anyway, right? 

as far as a sea trial goes, as the owner, I'd tell YOU to walk, gimme a break, its in his driveway! You want it, you buy it, caveat emptor.

if the motor is in pieces, you can figure its toast. It may not be, but chances are good if its apart, theres a reason.
cutlass bearing will cost around 750, to 1500.

cipher away, grab your slide rule, and go forth.

Or hire a surveyor pay him and have the paper in your hand. Then make an informed decision.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

" So, what do you think would be reasonable to deduct, and not escrow?"
I have a deal with the Spirit of Jimmy the Greek: I don't give odds, and he don't haunt me. [g]

It could take a half day on the boat trying to see what was what to really make a fair guess. Or, just go in so low you can't lose and who knows, maybe you'll luck out.

"Uh, no way! I found an advertisement that included a picture of an assembled boat. ...Bottom line - I walk on this issue alone." Walk from what? Unless you made an offer based on the pictures & asking price, etc., there's nothing to walk away from.

The cutless bearing...varies with the boat, but you're basically talking about a piece of hard rubber tubing that has been press fit between the shaft and a skeg. If it wobbles...it needs a $50? 100? part and an hour or two of labor, in most cases.

"if I have that big of a spreadsheet on a boat, I'd walk." Yeah, Cpaul may have a point there. When a project gets big enough...

Heck, tell the guy if he'll let you TAKE the boat away, for free, you'll fix it up and sell it and give him back any profit after your usual hourly rates for the "taking away" "commissioning" "repairs" and all the other good stuff. (What, you never wanted to be a used boat salesman?[g])


----------



## LyleRussell (May 3, 2006)

1. Get it surveyed. The $500 spent will answer all your questions. 

2. Compression test the the engine. You can do that without running it. That will answer 90% of the questions. BTW a new engine is not 15k. I have a quote for a Yanmar 3GM in hand installed for 7k. Still a lot though.

3. I agree 70k is overpriced but you are in a very good negotiation position.

4. Shipping a mile to the water can't be too bad. Again I have a quote from Brownell to move a boat from Hingham Mass to Annapolis for $2200 including loading and unloading but not the rig setup. 

5. Most used boats are on the hard. That's the best place to see them. You can look at the bottom and prop shaft. If all the pieces are there, why not. 

6. You should know by now that Internet pictures are meaningless. Have you ever been to one of those dating sites?? 

I would personally ask to see all the pieces, rig, cushions, CG stuff etc. Be sure it's all there. Then get the survey. The surveyor will give you a valuation estimate to begin negotiation.


----------



## LyleRussell (May 3, 2006)

If you offer 50k and want to escrow 20k I would tell you to get lost and wait for another buyer. 

Did I mention get her surveyed? 

IMO Superficially she looks like a nice boat. Pearson's can clean up very well.


----------



## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

My 2¢: Run away unless you like *working* on boats as opposed to sailing.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*Run away!*

All thank you for all the thoughtful replies.

I've been mulling them for the past week, while redoing a ceiling. I've been adding a skylight to our home at the admiral's "suggestion". Anyway, I've decided to give this one a pass. Many of you have pointed out that there are too many unkowns, the re-comissioning and the owner's moving are very likely to complicate matters.

Right now, between the ceiling, looking for a "real" job, and helping my dad recuperate from heart surgery, I have too many ongoing projects.

Thanks again!

Ed


----------



## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

Ed & others ...

There are many many boats out there for sale and you could probably even find a similar model for sale in a condition you are happy with. Cost of transport would be the only factor but say its 5K it is still not a big deal if the boat you want in the condition you want ....

So then why buy a boat that you are unsure of unless it is because you are hoping for a bargain? It's either buy one in tip top shape and ready to go or roll the dice and hope that a lot of the systems you are worried about are still in good shape. If it's not about saving money or saving this particular boat then you should as you have said give it a pass.

OTOH if you want to get a 36 foot boat for less than normal then you can leverage the unknowns to get a good price and may not have to spend the difference making it work.

All boats not down south are out of the water in the winter anyway (witha few exceptions) and most take a lot of gear off for storage. Many when stored for the winter do not look a lot different than this one.

A boat in the water especially down south may even be more of a problem.

So - do you want a bargain boat and gamble that it is a good bargain or do you want a safe bet and pay a premium?

One final thing - I would ask the owner how long he has had the baot and ask to see his repair/project log and receipts if possible. This may be an owner who took very good care of the boat or it may be one that boughtit and did nothing.... that would really help understand the true condition of any vessel.

Mike


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

my feeling is BUY IT.. ONLY if you can do some/most of the work and ONLY if you can get it at a substantually (also using the cost to move and recommission as leverage) lower price. Pearsons are solid boats. The diesel can be run off a garden hose and bucket.. run it good. 
good luck!


----------

