# Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

I am looking for any feedback, good or bad, about the late 70''s Hardin Voyager 44 or late 80''s Morgan Nelson Marek 43. The boat will be used primarily by a couple for living aboard and island hopping in the Caribbean. Also, what are the offshore capabilities of these two models and what other boats in the $90,000 - $110,000 range would fit our needs. Thanks in advance for any advice.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

First of all let me make one minor correction. Nelson- Marek did not design the Morgan 43. They designed the 454 (also called a 45) and they designed the 36. Both were IOR era designs. While you sometimes see the 43 ascribed to Nelson- Marek from everything that I have been able to dig up they had nothing to do with the 43. There is a Nelson Marek 43 but it is an IMS race boat.

As to your two boats in question the Hardin is a heavily construced character boat. They have their strong followers but from reading discussions with owners and watching them underway, I have concluded that they are neither great light air boats nor really good heavy air boats. Obviously at 33,000 lbs these are very heavy boats. This really hurts light air performance. At an approximately 25% ballast to displacemnt ratio, these are also lightly ballasted boats. Combining this light ballast ratio, the high center of gravity implied by wooden masts and their shoal draft, these are boats that do not stand to their rig as well as you would like for a true offshore design.

While there is school of thought that advocates lots of weight for going offshore, weight, in and of itself, does nothing good for a boat. It does not make it strong, or stabile, or comfortable in a seaway. In my mind the Hardins are the poster child for the weight does nothing good point of view.

The Morgan 43 are reasonably well constructed boats with a nicely modeled hull form. They appear to sail well in a reasonably wide range fo sailing conditions. At 23,000 lbs the Morgan will have a better light air performance and will be more easily driven. With nearly the same amount of ballast, the Morgan should stand to her sail plan. Neither boat would be my first choice as an offshore cruiser in this price range but I would probably lean toward the Morgan.

If I were looking for an offshore cruising boat in the gneral size na dprice range that we are discussing, I would probably be looking for Peterson 44 (Kelly-Peterson 44). To me these are about as ideal as they come in this genre. With an easily driven hull, higher ballast to displacement ratio, high density ballast, efficient cutter rig, lots of opening ports and hatches, enough fuel and water to go anywhere, and a layout that just about can''t be beat. That would be my first choice if I were going the heavier offshore cruising boat route with your budget.

Jeff


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## manateee_gene (Dec 7, 2001)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Jeff gave you some very sound information about the merits of the two boats.
Here is some advice of a different sort.
Money does not buy cruising experience! The
bigger the boat the more you have to contend with,there are so many thing to learn about keeping a boat at sea eithout having to stop at every boat yard and mechanic and electronic shop along the way.
At SEA you do not need a two bedroom two bath and shower condo.
Find the smallest boat not the largest boat
that you can comfortably handle by yourself
with no help from your mate.That is the right size boat.Forget about all the goodies
helping you.Sooner than you think they will 
fail.
Read the Log of Ithaka and the problems they
they encountered in their first year.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

I agree with you myself. I recently went through the process of looking for a well rounded design that could be taken offshore and concluded that 38 feet was a more practical outside limit for my own needs. On the other hand this post seemed to be fouced on 43/44 footers around $100K.

Jeff


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## manateee_gene (Dec 7, 2001)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Jeff:
I agree about what they were focused on
$100,000 42-45 ft boat.From the question
I thought their experience sounded a bit limited.I wanted to fore warn them about actuals and reality rather than foster a dream which could ultimately put them in harms way!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Thanks to all for the great input. I looked on Yachtworld.com at some Peterson 44''s and the do appear to be great all round boats. You were right when you said my experience sounded a "bit limited". My wife and I are new to sailing but our "limited" experiences have introduced us to a great new passion. We have set the end of 2004 as our deadline to sell everything and move on board. I hear from alot of experience sailors to think smaller. What are your thoughs on the Tayana 37. They appear to be solid and I met alot of cruisers in the Windwards last year who swear by them. Thanks again for the help.
Roy


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## manateee_gene (Dec 7, 2001)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

If it were me I''d probably ask JeffH what size boat and what brand he bought for his retirement plans for cruising.
My second choice since you have some time would be to take a look at the monthly
classifieds in www.Latitude 38.Two years ago
a wonderful Embroden 37 was for sale for $37,000.There are about 9 of them all built in cored fiberglass in So.Cal. if you could get one you''d have the Cats Meow!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Speaking of Latitude 38...the magazine has plenty of stories about couples heading out of the golden gate in boats larger than 40'', and managing fine, adding crew as needed for the type of passage.

I read somewhere that cruisers spend about 95% of their time on the hook, so I would think creature comforts and size must factor somewhere into the equation.

I''ve also read plenty of heavy weather horror stories, and recently a yacht design and stability article by Olin Stephens. A common thread, if all other things are equal, is that larger boats are safer boats.

Art

P.S.- I''m also new to sailing, so take my ramblings for what they''re worth.


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## thomasstone (Dec 21, 2001)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Had a chance to go out on a Tayana 37 last week.(brilliant boat on all points) Would make an excellent choice for you. This particular boat was had for 50,000 flat. The only thing the guy added was a monitor. Your right about boats on the hook , I see this everyday in Wrightsville bch, at least with the tayana you could go around ramming everyone waking them up and tell them to start sailing or buy a house boat.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

The Tayana 37s are a real mixed bag. They are good sailors for a compact heavy cruiser. They came in a lot of differing interior layouts but some really offer a great liveaboard offshore cruising scheme. They are very handome boats to look at, expecially the later ones. They are pretty rugged boats in many ways.

The down side is that they came with a wide range of hardware, some name brand and quite up to snuff and some junky knock offs. Because of the double ended design, they do not offer a lot of room or storage for a heavier displacement 37 footer. Most of the years that they were in production they had black iron tanks and these will fail over time and are a major ordeal to replace. Most had teak decks laid over fiberglass which are a major pain to maintain and are a deal breaker for me because no matter how well you maintain a teak deck sooner or later they will leak into the deck core and rot it out. That sais, many of these plucky 37 footers have been to the kind of far off places that I only dream about.

Jeff


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## thomasstone (Dec 21, 2001)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Nothing mixed about this Tayana. It did not have teak decks nor did it have iron tanks. We had light winds 10 to15knts and this boat sailed very well on all points. The cockpit is small although we had four people and there was plenty of room. A small cockpit is ideal for an offshore boat as is allows minimal water to collect when waves start to wash over. This probaly doesnt happen much on the cheasapeake. thomas


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

I have a Tayana 37 (my wife made me buy it, as I''d rather be racing). The T37 is built like a tank, and not the fastest due to the full keel but the speed is respectable for a ''heavy''. Its a true blue water sailer that can be heavily loaded with ''stuff'' and still be able to sail well. More Tayana 37s have circumavigated than any other ''production'' sailboat, nearly 700 built. The interiors are semi-custom and I''ve never found two interiors alike; some well laid out so that you will have adequate surfaces, etc. to grab onto during a heavy seaway ... and others which are quite ''open'' with pullman berths etc. The interior joinery is of the highest quality to be found - best to find one with a varnished interior (instead of oiled which eventually turns black). Most are cutters but a few ketches were built, the ketches supposedly being better sailers but a bit underpowered. 
Bad points: Older T37 are prone to have leaky bulwarks that will evenutally drain into the chainplates, etc. Many have iron bow mounted fuel tanks - which rot out from underneath, The wooden bowsprit tends to rot if not well maintained, Some older boats have wooden spars that are subject to rot. Many have teak decks that eventually leak and rot the underlayment - expensive repair. 
These are heavy seaworthy and **seakindly** boats but are tender on initial heel and therefore have a long roll period yielding a good seakindliness or motion. What I liked about the cutter sail plan was it is enough sail area for light winds but versatile in heavy going, yet not too much sail area so that it would be difficult for one person to handle on a bouncing deck if a sail had to be removed, etc. . 
If you''re truly interested in a T37, I suggest that you join the Tayana owners group (also the Tayana owners eMail discussion group here on Sailnet) as a *prospective* member and perhaps visit during one of various Tayana rendezvous (just bring a covered dish something or other) and get first-hand impressions from various owners and perhaps kick a few tires. The owners group (TOG) is a good platform to find boats that are just coming onto the market, etc. as most T37s are probably sold through classified ads in the TOG newsletter. eMail me direct and I will return a few published articles on the T37. There is also a Sailnet fttp site with pics of various repairs, projects, manuals, etc.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Roy,

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the traditionalists on this BB, I have been thinking about your post from yesterday afternoon. As I am interpreting it, you are new to sailing, meaning that you are learning to sail as well as planning your great escape. I have been focusing on the ''great escape'' aspect of your post, but ignoring the point that you are learning to sail.

We all choose how well we want to learn to sail, and as long as you are comfortable with your ability, and don''t get pounded too badly in a storm, there is no one right answer here. BUT if you want to learn to sail well, you will not be able to learn on the kind of heavy cruisers that you are contemplating. These boats make good second boats. They are not responsive enough to teach you how to finesse sail trim and develop good boat handling skills. I know that people have learned to sail on all kinds of boats, but it is hard (if not imposible) to really learn to sail well on boats like these.

I would suggest that you start out with a small keel boat, perhaps 26 to 28 feet and spend some time out on the water. Yes, you may loose a little money buying and reselling a smaller boat, but you will have better skills and, in the long run, these skills will make will allow you to use the engine less, and sail safer, faster and more comfortably.

I also question your time table. You might be able to get to a point by "2004 to sell everything and move on board" but that would be a real foot race to achieve if you were experienced sailors. With all due respect, you are not. The first thing you learn in sailing is that the surest way to get into trouble is to set deadlines. My sincere suggestion is to slow down a little. Try to identify the skills that you need to actually go off cruising, i.e. navigation, boat maintenance, procurement of supplies and food, sailing, weather, offshore medicine, and so on. Then set up a schedule to learn those skills. Take things one step at a time and don''t rush. to summarize, you are caught between two conflicting proverbs. Your haste is appropriate acting on the Welsh (or Scottish)proverb, "You are dead for a very long time." but it needs to balanced by the old saw that, "Haste makes waste."

Respectfully,
Jeff

(For the guy who noted that you don''t get pooped much on the Chesapeake, I agree, but I sure got pooped a lot sailing in the ocean in winter off in the Atlantic off the Georgia Coast. I know of what you speak! 8^)


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Jeff,
I couldn''t agree with you more one this one! Heavy boats are extremely stable, sooooo stable that you can easily get into trouble and not really know what is happening until too late. These boats are designed for only one thing --- going straight ahead and doing so for a long time, something like a 747 airplane. Expecially in lighter winds, unless you really know how to finess the sails, and get every ounce of thrust from them, etc. you will be constantly motoring from place to place most of the time. 
Without the skills developed in sailing very responsive boats (think of a combat / fighter aircraft that is naturally unstable: always turning, always needing correction, so unstable that if you took your hands from the steering for a few seconds you''d crash, etc.) you will essentially miss the true fundamentals of good sailing skills necessary to translate and transfer to the heavy weight boat. A heavy weight boat is definitely not a first boat, .... you wouldnt expect to do your first ''solo'' aircraft pilot experience in a 747 would you?


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## thomasstone (Dec 21, 2001)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Dont agree at all about buying one boat to learn to sail before you sail away in the original boat you want. There are so many documented stories of people sailing away with little or no experience (navigation etc) that to me it is not that ambitous of a plan. Would I recommend it no , but I would not tell you it is a bad idea. Much respect. I will admit I have a fondness for double ended boats, must be the norwegian in me. My point about about the tayana was I always assumed they were in the 80k plus range. I dont know if this guy got a deal or if thats the going rate. Me personally I like alot of new boats I probally get all of the same mags as everyone else I just dont like boats with air spoilers or look like spaceships. If that makes me a traditionalist at least its better than a nay sayer. BTW happy birthday to me!
thomas


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## manateee_gene (Dec 7, 2001)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

I cannot speak for Jeff only myself.Jeff was following up on my statement about lack of experience and the problems arising from it!
I know people take -off and do it!!Without experience and mostr of them make it!.What I say to you is how many are still sailing after 5 years.Just look at the SCCA records. 
lots of people fall by the wayside.Mostly because expectations are toooo damn high!!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

I think that Thomas raises and important point. More and more today people are learning the rudiments of sailing and going offshore with greater and greater frequency. They are being helped by better electonics, hardware, better weather forcasting, and such events as the Carribean 1500 rally. But we are seeing good boats increasingly being lost and abandoned in conditions that would not have warranted abandonment by a skilled sailor. In reading accounts and talking to some of these skippers who prematurely abandoned a well found and seaworthy boat, these boats are often abandoned through inexperience and a basic lack of sail handling skills.

I cite this exampleto quote a delivery skipper friend of mine)

"The crew of a Crealock 37, cutter, named BON SECOUR was trying to put in a reef, and elected to start the engine to try to bring the boat head-to-wind (here''s my first "Huh?"). A jib sheet mysteriously turned into an "errant" jib sheet, and got wrapped on the prop (I''ll be the first to admit, I know how that goes)... This somehow managed to pry the engine off of its mounts, and pulled the shaft far enough aft that the prop became wedged against the attached rudder...The result was a boat that could no longer be steered nor powered. The boat was abandoned and the owner and crew was lifted off by a naval vessel. They had not lost thier rig, they were not sinking, and they had no one injured. This took place in breezes peaking at 20 knots, and seas running at 5 to 10 feet."

I am not posting this to criticize the skipper. I was not there and there may be more to the story than was published, but based on what was published, this boat should never have been abandoned. Even with the rudder cocked off to one side, if you understood the fine points of sailing, it should have been a piece of cake to balance a cutter rigged boat, rig a tackle on the staysail and using the staysail to steer, sail a good course in the general direction of your landfall. You should be able to this until a lull, at which point, hove to and get the prop back in place enough to steer. This is really simple stuff when you have learned how to finesse a boat. I have done in sloop rigged boats with a fraction of the directional stability of a Crealock 37. It is not the time to learn how to balance a boat, when you are out there, on a heavy boat and you really don''t understand enough about boat handling to be able to reef without starting the engine.

I am not judging this captain and crew. Nor do I look down on anyone who takes to the water for what ever reason, and with what ever experience, and in what ever kind of boat, it would still be my best advice to any person contemplating going offshore to really learn to sail well and that trying to really learn to sail well on a heavy ocean going boat is difficult at best, if not imposible for the average person.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## BigRed56 (May 27, 2001)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Ahoy gentlemen, Big Red the Pirate here, such a fine dicussion with differing points of view and articulate educated people.Now some who know of me might think Im about to go off in spectacular fashion and stomp someone''s guts out or at the very least nit pick the fine points to death. But Im not . No Im not . Somebody get me a rum! Quick. Ahhh thats better. Ok I guess I am. As I see it there are two distinctly different kinds of sailors and two distinct types of buyers for sailboats. Going off shore is neither as difficult or as dangerous as you might imagine. Its simple really you point the boat in the proper direction and you don''t come back. Either you got it or you don''t. If you haven''t learned to sail good if your and expert sailor good, if you boat cost next to nothing or you spent your nestegg to be pretty or comfortable ..good. Sailing is no different than every other diversion in life from RV''S to Planes,to coaching little league. If you love it you''ll do it. If you try it and quit so what? Boats are expensive. Risking one''s life or the lives of loved ones offshore is difficult to impossible for most people. Too many people think money means competence. It does not. The sea does not care how you came by your top of the line vessel. The weather dosen''t ask which sailing cert''s you have. And the courage to face the sea does not come from choosing the opinion which makes you feel better about your plans. If your going go. Go in anything . Who Cares? The sea dosen''t. Now all that said lets ask some real important questions. Which is better glass or plastic rum bottles for extended Cruises? Big Red the Pirate of Pine Island.


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## manateee_gene (Dec 7, 2001)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

BigRed56
When I earned my way on the Sea Fishin!
We had a saying "how Tough is Tough Enuf"
if you ain''t your history cause if the ocean
and the gods of the sea find a crack be it in the vessel or the skipper
YOUR HISTORY!!


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## thomasstone (Dec 21, 2001)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

A good book on this subject "Desparate Voyage". I think anyone that wants to go to sea with little or no experience is not average and more than likely has alot more guts than alot of us. I would also bet that when I get an oppurtunity to take five years off for a circumnavigation when Im done I would not want to see another boat for a long time if even at all. Even pirates need some civility, dont drink out of plastic bottles. thomas


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Hardin Voyager & Morgan Nelson Marek*

Because RPB mentioned that he is new to sailing (as am I), he might want to search these message boards for a couple of posts from Jeff_H regarding the considerable expense of preparing a boat for the sea. Might change your price range.


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