# Cruising Boats: Three Routes Forward



## Jim H (Feb 18, 2006)

Seems like for many (not all) of us, there are three routes forward concerning cruising boats.

1) Stay with the boat we have, which may be paid off, but is likely smaller and older than we would like to cruise in. Benefits: known quantity, bigger cruising kitty, possibly less expensive over time (because of smaller size and age), likely less comfortable, but ready to go on short notice (in case job changes in next five years). 

2) Order a new boat, sell current boat, make payments for 3-5 years, end up with a much newer, somewhat larger cruising boat. Benefits: newer design, gear, hull, sails, warranty. Likely less maintenance cost for first years of cruising. More comfortable. Better resale value in future. Possibly much smaller cruising kitty. Possible longer wait for cruise (at least until boat paid off, or nearly). Possible financial mistake to invest so much net worth in a boat. 

3) Buy a larger, used sailboat, but sell current boat. Benefits: more comfortable, and possibly more safe if well designed. Most likely it won't be ready to cruise, some or a lot of rebuild may be necessary, depending on age or condition. 1-2 years of work and rebuild investment needed, adding up to a third to one half of purchase price. Somewhat larger cruising kitty compared to new sailboat, but more chance of maintenance issues in first years of cruising. Worse resale outlook, since most of rebuild investment won't be recovered. 

As far as I can tell, Sailnet members have gone all three routes. I think we've had fewer new boat cruisers, and more large boat owners, but also the time frame for most here have been pretty long (or still in progress).

One question: the more I look at older, larger boats (40 to 46 feet), the more I become concerned about rebuild and maintenance costs. Large boats come with large costs, and in some ways having a new or newer boat might dodge some of the bigger risks (of time and money and resale). 

The other thing that concerns me is having a big boat while also just living and working. If one isn't ready to cruise, having even a new boat mostly sit in a marina or on a mooring for 3-4 years doesn't make sense, but the discipline to save up a couple hundred thousand for a new boat (cash on barrel) and buy it just before departure seems pretty tough, especially given the need for a cruising kitty...

Anyway, that's the ramblings for this morning...


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I think you underestimated the depreciation of the new boat. 
The fourth plan would be to buy a 5 to 10 year old boat that has suffered the depreciation hit but not the wear and tear yet. Problem there is that most of them are way overpriced! Now is probably the best opportunity to find such a boat in a distress sale.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Xort's point about the depreciation is an excellent one, and one you'd be foolish not to consider.


----------



## norsearayder (Dec 19, 2006)

if your idea is to have the largest boat possible then buy new as that will keep you from cruising for some time if that is your real goal.if u want out of the race then go with what u have as soon as economicly feasable...many people have not a clue as to how to manage life without a job,finacialy as well as mentally


----------



## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

Agreed. Let someone else buy the cruising boat of your dreams, take a few years depreciation while rarely leaving the dock, and sell it for cheap. I ran across the boat I would buy if I won the lottery the other day. Normally a 2 year waiting list, and I've only seen 2 others come up for sale in the last 5 years. This boat is 1 year old, made the trip from Canada to Tampa and was parked. 100K off list price, and the best bonus for lottery winners; no wait.


----------



## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Plan #5: rethink "larger=more comfortable" assumption. That lets you focus on somewhat smaller, somewhat newer, somewhat cheaper boat and still have enough of a cruising kitty to go sooner.

At least, that's what we decided. Met with our financial advisor last Friday and he said we're on track to GO next autumn, yeah, even in this economy  The down side is that the boat doesn't have a spare cabin for friends to come for long visits while we're in exotic ports. Hmmm, or maybe that's another up side.


----------



## rayncyn51 (Aug 8, 2008)

Agree totally with Eryka. Boats are like computer hard drives, in a way. No matter how big it is, you'll fill it up and tell yourself you need a bigger one.


----------



## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Recheck depreciation....

Buying new is good to get latest developments. Buying 5-10 yr. old is an excellent way to get most of the latest features without paying the current new boat price.

But depreciation, as far as I can tell, having had 4 new sailboats (22-32 ft.), is not really a factor if you are considering buying new. When one looks at the price of a 5-10 yr. old boat and determines that, for the same model, a new one is a lot more expensive, that is price escalation or inflation that you see, not depreciation. Do your homework and check to see what the original owner of that 5-10 yr. old boat paid for it. In most of the cases that I've seen (following the resale value of my boats), the price that is being asked for the 5-10 yr. old boat is close to what the buyer actually paid for it. Therefore, depreciation, which is the decrease in the value from what the original purchase price was for that particular boat, is not a big factor. Depreciation is not what you would have to pay to get a current new boat over the price of the 5-10 yr. older boat.

If anyone is not buying a new sailboat boat because of suspected high depreciation in the first few years, you are making a mistake. 

I have also a 19 ft. motor boat and depreciation based on book/resale value vs. original cost does seem to be significant for motor boats, probably due to fact that those boats take more of a beating and the engine (a large part of the cost) runs all the time and wears out.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'd not be comfortable with your "wait till you're ready,buy new and go"... I think a couple of years experience with any boat is important before heading offshore - they all need some tweaking, added gear, and you need time to sort out how to handle her in a variety of conditions.. preferably with bailout plan to begin with.


----------



## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

Jim H, I bought a new boat in 1973 and kept it for 12 years. I bought a 1973 boat of the same make, but larger, in 1985 and I have it still. I always had a list of wants and projects while owning both vessels and I still have wants and projects,- for me, the used boat was the better buy. 'take care and joy, Aythya crew


----------



## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Jim H said:


> 2) Order a new boat, sell current boat, make payments for 3-5 years, end up with a much newer, somewhat larger cruising boat. ...


I want to know how to pay off a new cruising sized boat in 3-5 years.

Which lottery ticket do I buy?

My boat was 168k (I added on a lot pre-purchase) new in 2007. I'm not exactly under-compensated, but even if I doubled payments to 2600 (round number) a month it would take 7 years to pay off.

The only way buying a new boat pays off, respective to depreciation, is if you quit seeing a boat as a investment. They are not, and never will be.


----------



## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

I think you're skipping a rare but very viable option...and one I intend to take up when its my time to slip away. 

On occasion, there are refits taken over the course of years where a prior owner will put in a substantial amount of time and money into fitting out a boat for cruising. Equipment like new watermakers, windvanes, solar, upgraded electrical will go into a classic like a Valiant 40. Often, the refit can cost as much as the book value of the boat itself.

Then, for whatever reason...plans change. It could be that the wife wants to go land cruising, or health of the owner causes a change. But either way...a very well equipped bluewater older boat with a complete refit enters the market. Then, subsequently sells at full list price because the cost of repairs plus new equipment depreciates nearly immediately...but the value is in the fact that the listing is fully ready to go. While not completley turnkey...they're awful close. I see about 2-3 of these vessels come up every year. Someone always says you overpaid...after all, there are Valiant 40's for only $50k on Yachtworld.

But the proud new owner knows what a bargain he got and goes out, keeping his time for cruising rather than boat refit projects.


----------



## Jim H (Feb 18, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Xort's point about the depreciation is an excellent one, and one you'd be foolish not to consider.


Dog, are you calling me foolish again.... 

Thanks to everyone for the all the replies so far. It's great to see a range of opinions.

I might rephrase the three routes forward in this way:
*
1) Go small, go cheap, go now. (The Lin and Larry Pardy advice.)

2) Buy new and sail and resell approach. (Which I see in John Neal's advice, despite his own start on an Albin Vega 27.)

3) Buy used, rebuilt and learn, then sail. (This could be called the "Sailing Forum" way, since many of us here have used boats we're really proud of or happy with.)*

I'll admit that I've followed the third route, and done rebuilding and engine work and heads and glass work and re-bedding, etc. However, as I look at older, larger sailboats, some sort of weird and unnatural common sense kicks in. I remember how long it took to re-bed everything on a 20 footer as I look at a 44 footers, and I don't like the math. (Nor the unheard of concept of paying someone else to do it-- *the Bob Bitchin approach*).

Anyway, even in this thread, there is disagreement about depreciation of new cruising boats. I think depreciation is a real issue with a lot of production boats, but newer cruising boats are a pretty rare breed, and supply and demand kick in.

Here's a quote from John Neal's site about choosing a used or new boat;



> Example: if you purchase a 15 year old boat for $80,000, spend $50,000 replacing engine, sails, wiring, tanks, rigging, electronics and epoxy bottom job using 1-2 years of potential cruising time in the process, you end up with a 17 year old boat, probably worth around $90,000.
> 
> A better choice might be a new boat that costs more initially but returns closer to 100% of your investment. You will be out cruising 1-3 years earlier with fewer mechanical breakdowns.


Source: Mahina Expedition - Offshore Cruising Instruction

Here's another example: we just looked at a new Ovni 395. The current list price for the base model is around 230,000 euros (including VAT). One could add another 30 to 40k in add-ons pretty easy (insulation, heater, full batten main, etc.). If we bought late enough in our Europe sojourn, we might be able to sail back to the states sans VAT (15%), but that would assume we could pay off the boat very, very quickly (like in a year, ugh.)

A quick search on Yachtworld reveals 15 Ovnis in the 395 and 385 range for sale. If I look at only ones six years-old or newer, the price range is 250,000 to 216,000 euros. They have more gear on-board than a new Ovni, but they also have at least three to six years of use. Thus, I personally don't see a lot of depreciation, until I get back to a 12 year old model for 119,000 euros.

In a similar size and age range, I could have a Halberg Rassy for 315,000 to 340,000 euros.

Now, of course, used boats don't typically sell for their asking price, but it is also common for a boat loan to be a bit higher for a used boat than a new boat. I'm not saying that new boats don't depreciate or cost quite a bit to commission and set up for cruising, but sometimes I wonder if the difference might be closer than we think.

(All that said, my 34 footer is in great shape for '73 boat, with recent rebuilds of all major components. With a water maker and piles of freeze dried food, we could be outa here, Lin and Larry style!)

Thanks, everyone.


----------



## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

*What is a cruising Boat?*

I am not sure in the OP's context what defines a cruising boat, or for that matter, what defines cruising. Some assume it is offshore blue water or world travel of some sort. For me it is the coastal area of the PNW, San Juans & Gulf Islands therefor route #1 makes the most sense. I will never cruise offshore, I have no interest in it. I prefer the scenic sailing area of the PNW and will likely spend all my years of sailing in this area. I looked at the poll page and see the majority of boats are under 36' and more than 20 years old if that indicates anything. Many folks have too many land ties to embrace a cruising life abroad and instead enjoy the seas of their geographic area. With a bit of extra $$$ (lotto) I would choose #2 just to make my current sailing style more comfortable but still no desire to sail abroad. I would also wait until my wife & I were both fully retired so that we can invest the amount of time in a new boat that is required to equal the finacial investment. Makes no sense to me to have a big expensive boat that I have neither the time or money to enjoy. There is a lot to be said for small and simple.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

eryka said:


> Plan #5: rethink "larger=more comfortable" assumption. That lets you focus on somewhat smaller, somewhat newer, somewhat cheaper boat and still have enough of a cruising kitty to go sooner.
> 
> At least, that's what we decided. Met with our financial advisor last Friday and he said we're on track to GO next autumn, yeah, even in this economy  The down side is that the boat doesn't have a spare cabin for friends to come for long visits while we're in exotic ports. Hmmm, or maybe that's another up side.


Mmmmm... Eryka... how many kids going on that boat with ya?? Eh???

The equation is: Bigger is not always better - unless you have kids (then bigger is always better)!!!

- CD


----------



## Bear46 (Jan 11, 2009)

Can anyone suggest how much to allow for unanticipated problems on a 10-20 year old 45-50 footer. I calculate the cost of adding or replacing things I know we will do, but need a good fudge factor for unanticipate pumps, switches, and other surprises. We are going to start cruising 6 mo's per year next year, continuing to work the other 6. We expect to be island hopping, not doing long distance blue water sailing.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

"Example: if you purchase a 15 year old boat for $80,000, spend $50,000 replacing engine, sails, wiring, tanks, "


Replacing a 15 year old engine??????? BS

Mine is 27 years old and is just getting broken in. We're not talking sport fishers here.


----------



## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

US27inKS said:


> Agreed. Let someone else buy the cruising boat of your dreams, take a few years depreciation while rarely leaving the dock, and sell it for cheap. I ran across the boat I would buy if I won the lottery the other day. Normally a 2 year waiting list, and I've only seen 2 others come up for sale in the last 5 years. This boat is 1 year old, made the trip from Canada to Tampa and was parked. 100K off list price, and the best bonus for lottery winners; no wait.


And what boat would that be?


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Bear...once you have fitted out the boat and addressed ALL survey items and the boat is in ready to go condition...then I think 10% of your investment in her a year is a reasonable amount to set aside for repairs and maintenance. Some years you will beat that and others will kill you before springtime...so it is good to set aside the amount and let anything unspent carry over for future issues and the "bad" years. 

Note that fitting out a 20-30 year old boat that has surveyed reasonably well can easily cost 30% of the price paid to begin with. Don't expect to buy and go for less than 20% more. I spent 35% outfitting my Irwin44 and 50% more outfitting my Tayana which I bought knowing full well I had significant issues to address and had the purchase price adjusted accordingly.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Mmmmm... Eryka... how many kids going on that boat with ya?? Eh???
> 
> The equation is: Bigger is not always better - unless you have kids (then bigger is always better)!!!
> 
> - CD


What kind of moron takes their kids with them? Oh, oops, I just saw who posted this. Bigger docks are definitely better, agreed.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Jim, you have to consider several things before you consider the boat.

1) The age and size of your kids when you go

2) The time you wish to spend cruising.

3) The places you wish to go

4) The distances between those places.

You have relatively small (sub-teen) children (two, maybe?) kids at the moment, and a Rival 34, if I recall. You are in Europe. I would suggest the boat you have TODAY is both seaworthy enough and big enough to do Scotland to Portugal, France to Estonia and all parts inbetween with the possible exception of waiting for weather windows around Ushant and crossing the Bay of Biscay.

So go already. You'll be within rowing distance of ports almost every day even anchored out, and you'll spend more on dockage and dinners ashore than on boat stuff (but less at 34' than 44'!). Because your boat will be essentially a combination transporter and bunkhouse, the amount of time "confined aboard" will be small.

If you do a lot of short-haul cruising in Europe, you could conceivably "downsize" to a daysailer for a few years while saving for a boat suitable for two adults and two sea-seasoned teens (meaning at least two decent sea berths), because THEY will be fully crewing. This means you can contemplate "working" a bigger boat, and you can assign real watches, meaning if you can sail out of the way of weather, you can, because 24/7 passages aren't dangerously fatiguing.

We got a 41 footer on the basis of my wife's size and strength limitations, but in some ways, learning to cope with a touch of squeeze (not much, because the pilothouse really breaks up our boat into four "rooms" of aft cabin/pilothouse/saloon/forepeak workshop) is not a sacrifice. We are all too busy aboard to be staring at the bulkhead.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

We went for Option 3. We bought a 1989 44 ft boat that was partially cruise equipped in reasonably good condition at what we think was a good price.

We are planning our retirement cruise starting in another 5 years (that's pretty much what we need to be sort of finanically independant). We have the boat in a marina close to our home and spend a lot of time sailing locally whilst identifying what needs to be done to make her a properly equipped cruiser.

I am perhaps fortunate in that I am blessed with an innate ability to fix things. I've worked all my life in assorted technical environments and thus am skilled enough to do decent quality upgrades myself. That shaves off vast amounts of money that others may have to shell out. I buy a lot of used equipment for silly prices and restore it for substantially less than a new piece would cost. And even though I say so myself, I'm good at it.

The other up-side of doing it this way is that I get to REALLY understand what makes my boat tick. When stuff goes wrong, I have no questions to ask. I generally know exactly what needs to be fixed and how I'm going to do it. This will pay serious dividends out there.

So as someone said earlier in the thread, it's a matter of horses for courses.

I must confess that I have recently looked on with a little envy at Moorings selling a 2002 50ft Beneteau for $190k. Yes, I know that a lot of the equipment on board is no good for cruising and there is a lot missing but the boat should be in a lot better condition than mine. Hmmmm. It's too late for me now.


----------



## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Mmmmm... Eryka... how many kids going on that boat with ya?? Eh???
> 
> The equation is: Bigger is not always better - unless you have kids (then bigger is always better)!!!
> 
> - CD


C'mon, C-dad, I said an _extra _cabin. _Extra_, as in, more bunks than people. Up to you whether you want it to have a door that locks from the outside LOL!


----------



## MoonSailer (Jun 1, 2007)

Money available,crusing plans. It is probably best to allocate your money so that you can afford to cruise. Not much use in a great boat that you can't afford. Not much use to buy a world cruiser to coastal cruise in the Bahamas. Not much use in buying a boat and then waiting for years to go cruising. Stick the money in the bank and then buy a boat a few months before you leave to go cruising. 
I met a really sad couple. They had planned everythign bought the boat and then had a grown child that needed them to care for him after a tragic accident. They lost a lot of money selling their boat tha was ready to go .


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

MoonSailer said:


> I met a really sad couple. They had planned everythign bought the boat and then had a grown child that needed them to care for him after a tragic accident. They lost a lot of money selling their boat tha was ready to go .


These things unfortunately happen all the time and at the same time, where someone loses, often others get an opportunity they wouldn't have otherwise had.

A friend of ours just boat a very well equipped cruiser for half the market value after the owner had a heart attack and died in a foreign port. So one family takes a serious knock - another gets a serious break.

It's not always all bad.


----------



## kaluvic (Jan 14, 2009)

I bought a 30 year old boat for 100gs , have spent 4 summers and another couple 100gs "fixing her up" (not counting the cost of a 14'000mile delivery… or my time)

When I'm done she'll be just the way I want her...I'll know every nook and cranny and how everything works. 

But she'll never sell for what I've got in her...not by a long shot.

But I couldn’t get close to touching a similar size/quality for that price new.

When I kick the bucket it'll be a hellova deal for some one.

There are excellent deals just like mine out there...its just finding them!!

Note that I have absolutely loved every minute of the time I spend working on her....and that’s priceless.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

eryka said:


> C'mon, C-dad, I said an _extra _cabin. _Extra_, as in, more bunks than people. Up to you whether you want it to have a door that locks from the outside LOL!


 Don't forget do dog the hatch so it can't be opened... otherwise, you're likely to have a mutiny on your hands.


----------



## CGMojo (Jul 6, 2007)

*Another Option*

How about option #8 --- Decent, reasonable local cruising boat and an occasional foreign charter? I have a 36 sloop in San Diego and plan to terrorize the Catalina and the Channel Islands, maybe Mexico. When I want exotic places, I charter in Greece or Nice or Oslo. The cost of my local cruiser, the air fare, and exotic charters is no more than the cost of a slightly bigger ocean-going sail boat. Financially it's a wash and I don't have to spend 15-20 days crossing an ocean.


----------



## Bear46 (Jan 11, 2009)

Thanks for the advice on costs--a great help.


----------



## TaMoko (Jan 17, 2009)

Excellent advice XORT. Maybe others should be thinking the same and benefit from current market.


----------



## yellowwducky (Nov 6, 2008)

I think for my part, I would be going with the new boat route.

I see it as following in my case:

Pluses.......

New, so equipment less likely to have problems and maybe some warranties
Can spec out equipment wants and not wants; air con no, washer yes for example
Know that its new and wasn't run into a reef, rebuilt, ran rough under charter etc
Used prices for 2-5 year old cats seem almost like new ones or are rounding errors of difference in the grand scheme of life

Minuses

I am not experienced at all so have a huge curve to know or even have an idea if I want a rolling furler vs a x or y or z alternative
My biggest concern with getting one built is making sure a builder stays in business to complete the boat and not lose all my cash

My biggest concern is actually the last point, experience or lack thereof doesn't bother me as sailing really isn't rocket science. But to go and have some builder end up belly up in South Africa or Brazil or wherever while building a boat with my cash would be a major major concern.


----------

