# Heat and AC and heat reqirements for Chesapeake in winter?



## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

I'll be buying a 1988 C&C MkII 30' boat this month. I plan to live aboard in DC on the Chesapeake...through winter in Harrington Harbor South. Not many people do it, but I'll be by myself, so room should be fine for a 46yr old guy. It's in great shape. I plan to install a $800 or so fridge in the icebox. Why? I'm moving from a 15' West Wight Potter to a real sail boat, get paid to live in DC for a year (Rent is $1500/month + utilities). The marina is only $475/month and only pay for electric which is about $160 in winter I was told.

However, not sure what to do for heat AND ac.
The boat has a port/roof top AC available for $500 extra (not purchased yet).
I talked a small boat owner on a pretty worn/well used boat. He said he uses 3 electric heaters (1500watt).
Would this work realistically?
Should I put in a $2000 marine AC/heat unit at ~9,000 BTU ac and 10,000 btu heat? I'd install it myself.
That works out to be about $1,500 more than buying his port AC unit without heat.

Initial research says the bay water temps gets down to 40-42 degrees in January and air temps to 29 average lows and 44 highs in January. It's all better the rest of the year. I heard that the heat pumps don't work well below 40 degrees.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I have a 14,000 BTU heat pump in my Morgan 33 OI and it works great, summer and winter. It is relatively small, about 14 X 18 inches X 14 inches high, doesn't consume much electricity, very efficient, but it is a bit noisy on the heat mode.

All the best,

Gary


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I ran my reverse cycle AC/heat for the first time this morning. It warmer up the interior from 50 to 65 in reasonable time with the water being in the low 40s. So it is doable.

But if it were me and I was mainly thinking live-aboard at a marina where I could plug in I would just use electric heaters and the roof top AC.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Flagship Marine .... a/c is reverse cycle. Heat is straight electric furnace. Have had one for almost twenty years still runs like new.


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

We lived aboard at HHS for a while, but moved up to Annapolis eventually because HHS didn't have enough town to entertain us when we couldn't go sailing (we still live aboard up here). You will definitely need something to provide heat besides the reverse cycle for a portion of the year. The bay gets too cold for it to work. We had ours shut down for about 6 weeks this past winter. It was too cold to use it for much longer than that the previous two winters. But a few space heaters works fine. You just need to make sure your shore power is up to the task. Two winters ago, at least 4 boats on our dock had their shore power inlets burn up (all caught in time to avoid more significant damage). Space heaters draw a lot of power.

EDIT: Also worth noting: There will be periods of the winter (generally) where the pump-out boat will not be able to get to you because of ice. And HHS does not provide any dock water in the winter. You will have to run a long series of hoses up to the bath-house and drain the hose when you are done. (Making friends with the other liveaboards will help with this.) And HHS does not provide bubblers, so you will have to deal with that on your own.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We moved aboard about a month ago, when water temps were 40ish and air temps were freezing. The heat pump did not do well enough on it's own. We ran a space heater in our cabin at night to supplement.

As water temps have risen to almost 50 and air temps in the 40s and 50s, the heat pump did a great job. No struggle at all. 

I think even DC will see it's fair share of cold water and freezing winter temps.

Also need to be concerned over condensation. If you have access to shore power, I would highly consider running a dehumidifier. Showers, cooking, breathing, all add moisture. Not to mention, if you go the route of a fuel burning heat source.


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Also need to be concerned over condensation. If you have access to shore power, I would highly consider running a dehumidifier. Showers, cooking, breathing, all add moisture. Not to mention, if you go the route of a fuel burning heat source.


We make do without a dehumidifier by just increasing ventilation, but we generally shower on shore. But you will probably want to add something like hypervent or froli to provide airflow under mattresses or you will be dealing with a lot of condensation and mildew.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mr_f said:


> We make do without a dehumidifier by just increasing ventilation.....


Isn't that a bit tough? Some cover their boat for the winter, making ventilation hard, not to mention that ventilation on a 20 deg night is rough duty.

BTW, I'm sure you know this, but the reason that ventilation works is because outside cold air can't hold as much moisture as the interior heated air. However, if you don't get the interior humidity (dew point) down below the hull temp, you'll get condensation somewhere. The worst are places you can't see.


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Isn't that a bit tough? Some cover their boat for the winter, making ventilation hard, not to mention that ventilation on a 20 deg night is rough duty.
> 
> BTW, I'm sure you know this, but the reason that ventilation works is because outside cold air can't hold as much moisture as the interior heated air. However, if you don't get the interior humidity (dew point) down below the hull temp, you'll get condensation somewhere. The worst are places you can't see.


We don't cover our boat because there are often enough nice days to go sailing scattered through the winter around here. For me, the hardest part of winter is staring out at the bay not being able to go sailing, so those few days are worth it to me. (We did question that decision when the bay was 95% ice-covered two winters ago.) Hopefully someone else who covers during the winter can compare their experience with ventilation.

And I am not talking about a lot of ventilation. We generally leave an overhead hatch below the dodger slightly cracked in a cabin we don't hang out in. This exchanges enough hot moist air for relatively drier air at a rate that the heaters can easily keep up with. We vent a bit more if we are cooking soup or pasta. On the coldest of nights, we may close it off and deal with a little condensation.

It is worth noting that our boat has a foam-cored hull, which I believe helps with condensation on the hull. But it still took us a while to find the right solutions for the hard-to-reach places (hence my mention of airflow under mattresses). There are some storage areas we don't use during the winter because if they are full, the hull sweats behind the stuff, and some we make sure to open and air out regularly. Our mast is fully wrapped. We insulated a few places that were problems. Things like that. It works for us.

You may be right that a dehumidifier is a better solution. I was already tripping over space heaters, so the thought of adding another thing to trip over (especially one that can be fairly noisy) outweighed the trouble of figuring out how to deal with condensation. Now that we have it "figured out", I consider our boat to be "warm and dry".


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## MarcStAug (Nov 2, 2014)

Wouldn't those topside AC units that are removable be a pain every time you want to go sail? Just curious.


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

Topside acc I think would be less convenient. I still cannot decide if $200p is worth built in ac over a roof top. Id still need heat this winter if the pumps are not enough so now the decision is leaning towards 3 heaters and dehumidifier vice an ac with heat pump and maybe 1 heater. 
Is ac a good resell item? 
This will be for one year then I move to Corpus Christi, TX. I'm sure a heat pump ac would work there, but won't be living aboard there, just many 5 day sailing trips.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

serpa4 said:


> .....Is ac a good resell item?.....


Yes.


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

Thanks all!

"Also worth noting: There will be periods of the winter (generally) where the pump-out boat will not be able to get to you because of ice. And HHS does not provide any dock water in the winter. You will have to run a long series of hoses up to the bath-house and drain the hose when you are done. (Making friends with the other liveaboards will help with this.) And HHS does not provide bubblers, so you will have to deal with that on your own."

SO, HH no water in winter! No bubblers, probably ok. No pump out either! Dang. I'll try to use the bath house as often as possible. I have a 28 gallon holding and 70gal fresh. I hope the trips to fill with hoses is not too often. Perhaps those hoses that expand you see on tv (3-4 of them and not much space). I don't really think it will be especially if I shower at the docks which is very likely.
What do you do if you need a pump out? Do they make occasional runs in the winter? I mean a trip to the bath house at 2am to go poop is going to suck! 

How long was water off at HH?

I think I'll do a few heaters and a plug in dehumidifier. Any ideas on good heaters? I.e. they have tall heaters, small block ceramic ones, then the ones that make heat via coils of wire, etc. They are all about 1500 watts. Any difference? I assume with 2 or 3, quite is a huge factor as well as oscillation.

Should I often flip mattress over? I can move between beds since it is just one person.

I do need to install a couple of those solar vents (~$120) to vent. Looking at boats on the hard while shopping for one, those with out those vents were full of water.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Liveaboard near Toronto for 20yrs. The liveaboards got together and built a portable pumpout wagon, been working great for years. For water we run hose underwater t'd off to each boat. When we need water we pull up the end and connect it at the clubhouse to fill our tanks.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

serpa4 said:


> ....Any ideas on good heaters? I.e. they have tall heaters, small block ceramic ones, then the ones that make heat via coils of wire, etc. They are all about 1500 watts. Any difference? I assume with 2 or 3, quite is a huge factor as well as oscillation.


For the last month, we've used a ceramic oscillating heater at night, but I would never leave the boat with it running. I even bring the smoke alarm in our stateroom, when sleeping with it on.

If I was living aboard, I would probably get an electric oil filled radiant heater or two, with a tip over shut off. Comfortable heat, no fan to burn out, no exposed element, paper could fall/blow onto it and not catch fire.

In order to keep your fresh water lines from freezing, you're going to have to leave heat on, while your away. Also be sure that heat will actually get to your lines.



> Should I often flip mattress over? I can move between beds since it is just one person.


It's more important to get something that allows ventilation below the mattress. Hypervent can get pricey, but it works. There are other systems too.


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

serpa4 said:


> SO, HH no water in winter! No bubblers, probably ok. No pump out either! Dang. I'll try to use the bath house as often as possible. I have a 28 gallon holding and 70gal fresh. I hope the trips to fill with hoses is not too often. Perhaps those hoses that expand you see on tv (3-4 of them and not much space). I don't really think it will be especially if I shower at the docks which is very likely.
> What do you do if you need a pump out? Do they make occasional runs in the winter? I mean a trip to the bath house at 2am to go poop is going to suck!
> 
> How long was water off at HH?


Unless they have changed in the last few years, the pump-out boat will run most of the winter. It just can't run when there is too much ice to get to you.

The water will be off for months. They were willing to move us to a slip closer to the bath-house during the winter. Made running the long hose easier, and those late-night trips (if needed) slightly less painful.



serpa4 said:


> I think I'll do a few heaters and a plug in dehumidifier. Any ideas on good heaters? I.e. they have tall heaters, small block ceramic ones, then the ones that make heat via coils of wire, etc. They are all about 1500 watts. Any difference? I assume with 2 or 3, quite is a huge factor as well as oscillation.


We have a nice wide-base oil-filled heater that we feel relatively safe leaving on when we are not aboard. Then we have a few other varieties for faster or more localized heat. I favor short, fat, heaters with good tip-over shutoffs.



serpa4 said:


> Should I often flip mattress over? I can move between beds since it is just one person.
> 
> I do need to install a couple of those solar vents (~$120) to vent. Looking at boats on the hard while shopping for one, those with out those vents were full of water.


Also helps to prop up cushions when you are using them. If I were you, I would get aboard and assess the condensation you actually have, rather than trying to guess ahead of time everything you will need. After all, winter is a ways off at the moment. Enjoy the easy part of the year.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Here in New York last winter, I used a ceramic heater to heat the boat quickly and a 1500 watt oil radiator heater to keep it warm and was quite warm on a 33 foot boat. Look for an older electric radiator that has mechanical controls, as most of the electronic ones will not reset if the power drops. I used some spare line to lash it in place, so the only way it would tip over is if the boat went over! I have a Propane bulkhead heater but do not have it installed yet, it uses outside air for combustion and exhausts completely to give a good dry heat. (Dickson) But if you are going to only be there one winter I think the portable heaters will be more than sufficient. Keep in mind they pull a lot of electricity, so on a 30 amp supply you will only be able to use 2. my radiator has switches for 600 watts, 900 watts or 1500 watts so you can control the amount of heat and juice it pulls. Some will rig up a second 30 amp supply that they keep just for additional heat, and possibly A/C. 

We have no pump out in the winter(it is over by the fuel dock so you would have to move the boat), and I just lugged Jerry cans of water on board not that big of a deal, though having the head working would have been nice. I only used 2 to 3 gallons of water a day so not that big of a deal. I used the marina facilities for bathing and bathroom. Helps keep the moisture down as well.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

mr_f said:


> We have a nice wide-base oil-filled heater that we feel relatively safe leaving on when we are not aboard. Then we have a few other varieties for faster or more localized heat. I favor short, fat, heaters with good tip-over shutoffs.


I use a conventional tall thin oil-filled radiator. I removed the wheels it came with and mounted it on 18" long 1x2s.

I only use it to keep the boat above freezing (around 45 or 50 F) while I am not aboard. On board I fire up the Espar and keep the boat toasty.



miatapaul said:


> We have no pump out in the winter(it is over by the fuel dock so you would have to move the boat), and I just lugged Jerry cans of water on board not that big of a deal, though having the head working would have been nice. I only used 2 to 3 gallons of water a day so not that big of a deal. I used the marina facilities for bathing and bathroom. Helps keep the moisture down as well.


Excellent point. I carry a jug just about every trip to the boat. It is much easier to keep the tanks full than to catch up. In addition if the weather gets really bad and the docks ice up I don't have to crawl up and down the docks dragging jugs of water.

With regard to heads, many liveaboards find an Electroscan a convenient investment.


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

Man, no such thing (not on Goggle at least) as a oil heater with a MANUAL thermostat so it will reset when power comes on. I'll be working 12hr shifts and then a 1hr drive. 14hrs without heat might be pretty bad if power was out while I was working and it didn't reset and turn on.
ANy suggestions.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Home Depot's website seems to have several manual controls. Google Home Depot Oil Filled Radiant


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> ....With regard to heads, many liveaboards find an Electroscan a convenient investment.


Treated sewage may be 98% bug free, but I find it hard to believe it's okay to dump it overboard in a marina. 

I'm not a big fan of composting heads, but just like when at a campsite with no other choice, living aboard over the winter seems like a situation they were designed for.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Treated sewage may be 98% bug free, but I find it hard to believe it's okay to dump it overboard in a marina.


Look at what your local municipality does. *grin*

It is definitely legal outside designated EPA NDZs. It may or may not be proscribed by the lease contract for your slip.

It helps to have currents to circulate water. In a stagnant waterway it could be an issue.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Look at what your local municipality does. *grin*......


Ooph, don't get me started.........

Every recreational boat in all of Narragansett Bay couldn't put as much sewage into the Bay, if they pumped overboard every weekend. That's a fact.


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

SVAuspicious said:


> With regard to heads, many liveaboards find an Electroscan a convenient investment.


Herrington Harbour is in a no-discharge zone.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

mr_f said:


> Herrington Harbour is in a no-discharge zone.


True. Herring Bay is the only NDZ on the Chesapeake.


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## TMT2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Serpa4...We currently live aboard at Herrington Harbour South. I'd be happy to share what we have done to be comfortable over the winter in this climate (we are from Florida and have been in this area living aboard for the last 2- years). Ironically, have an older 16000 BTU Dometic Heat pump (split unit - condenser and compressor) in my storage room at the marina you might consider to save $$$. You'd have to pressure test it to verify integrity but its close by and I'm sure we can work something out? We replaced one of ours with a combined unit. I was saving it to install again as our cockpit AC/Heat when we put in the hard dodger this summer but the unit is overkill for the space we need to condition. Drop me a PM and I will provide contact info if you are interested in talking. Please provide contact info in your PM since my post count doesn't permit me to send one to you (I primarily hang out on Cruiser's Forum).

TMT2
SV Take Me There!
Gulfstar M53 Ketch


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