# Dream boat is nightmare?



## Dave Klatt (Jan 3, 2021)

After moving to So.Cal from mountains we had to have a place in the local marina, Had looked at many sailboats and came across the Columbia 28 that sparked my interest since it was a WIB Crealock design ,Whom I had met once actually. On our shakedown first time sailing in many years we were embarrassed by our departure from tight slip maneuvering, finding absolutely no steerage in reverse and almost hitting other boats, finally getting out to harbor The event ruined the day with angst. Cooler head and some research taught me that the design of boat I had bought had an offset prop and aft of the rudder, Now I'm considering an outboard hung off just to get some push to go straight forward, or just try to sell and start with a trusty Cal 25 or something I know better. Confused!?#


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

My dock neighbor has an outboard on his Columbia 30, so that's possible. He has problems coming in and out of the slip, though. If you are tall, then you'll like the headroom of the Columbia over a Cal (not by much as it is a flush deck), but for sailing, I would take the Cal 10 times out of 10.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Having the prop aft of the rudder like that is definitely a bit unusual. It won't improve the boats handling one bit. 

But, I can't imagine it's so bad you can't learn to live with it with some practice. You will just always need to make sure you have some way on before the helm responds. 

Hanging an outboard won't improve the handling. You still won't be able to vector the thrust with the rudder and you will be hanging over the transom to reach the thing.

Give it another half dozen outings, practice going in and out of an empty dock a bunch of times, you may find you can learn to work around it.

Most outboard powered boats have offset props aft of the rudder and people do manage


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Dave Klatt said:


> After moving to So.Cal from mountains we had to have a place in the local marina, Had looked at many sailboats and came across the Columbia 28 that sparked my interest since it was a WIB Crealock design ,Whom I had met once actually. On our shakedown first time sailing in many years we were embarrassed by our departure from tight slip maneuvering, finding absolutely no steerage in reverse and almost hitting other boats, finally getting out to harbor The event ruined the day with angst. Cooler head and some research taught me that the design of boat I had bought had an offset prop and aft of the rudder, Now I'm considering an outboard hung off just to get some push to go straight forward, or just try to sell and start with a trusty Cal 25 or something I know better. Confused!?#


Hey Dave and welcome aboard Sailnet! Personally I wouldn't count the boat out right away. It could be that the prop is a bit fouled, there was a crosswind or current you didn't notice, or as Arcb mentioned it may just take you some practice to get the hang of backing that particular boat.

FWIW there's a reason I strongly prefer to keep my boat nose-first in a slip - it's much easier to back into a big fairway than into a tiny slip!

In any case, I'd say give the boat a chance. Maybe someone on the site here who has owned one can chime in with some specific backing suggestions. For reference, does your boat have the original A4 or has it been repowered?


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

A little more practice and you will get it. When I was kid I raced on one and the owner had the same problems and he hated the boat. so we did the races without him several times. he finally ask us how we got out of the slip so easily. so we showed how we did by not using the motor and pushing the boat back out of the slip and once we had speed we turned the boat with ease because it was moving and no prop walk. then once turned down the fairway we used the motor to stop and move the boat forward. 
Outboard won't solve the problem and just create other problems.
Like my new boat many of the twin rudder boats have a similar problem as the prop is in the center and the rudders are not inline with the prop. boat does not pivot on the keel so it needs to be moving bit faster than most to be able to steer.


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## Dave Klatt (Jan 3, 2021)

Atomic 4 runs great and trans seems fine, Bought a new carb that made a big difference, previous owner said he would back into harbor (three slips away) neighbors said it'll take practice.and get more speed up. Thanks!


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## Dave Klatt (Jan 3, 2021)

Pretty rough is spots but sturdy feeling


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## Dave Klatt (Jan 3, 2021)

overbored said:


> A little more practice and you will get it. When I was kid I raced on one and the owner had the same problems and he hated the boat. so we did the races without him several times. he finally ask us how we got out of the slip so easily. so we showed how we did by not using the motor and pushing the boat back out of the slip and once we had speed we turned the boat with ease because it was moving and no prop walk. then once turned down the fairway we used the motor to stop and move the boat forward.
> Outboard won't solve the problem and just create other problems.
> Like my new boat many of the twin rudder boats have a similar problem as the prop is in the center and the rudders are not inline with the prop. boat does not pivot on the keel so it needs to be moving bit faster than most to be able to steer.


 I think that's what we'll do, walk it out mostly Thanks!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Very normal to have a moment of "what did I do"? Shake it off and get back on the horse repeatedly. You may need a bit more speed in reverse.

It's never the wand, it's the magician. You'll figure it out.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Iirc the cult vega 27 has prop aft of rudder


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Also, propwalk will make the stern yaw in one direction or the other. Figure out which way your propwalk goes and use it to your advantage. When backing out the boat will turn much more willingly in the direction of your propwalk.

Speed is important. It is scary back out of your slip faster than you feel comfortable but once you do you will realize it actually works, and you will become more confident maneuvering in marinas.

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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

After starting to motor astern, you might find steering quicker when going into neutral

Some motion back...neutral...achieve steering


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Back boat into slip so you go out forward.
Use engine in astern in short sharp spurts just for 1 second or so.

I regularly go out with my boat and teach the damn thing how to go into reverse. Still do it after owning it 13 years.
I go out and find two mooring balls close together and do reverse Figure of 8's through them. My boat is pretty stupid so it takes a while to re-teach it every time. I also do manouvers where I touch the bow or stern to the mooring ball from each current/wind direction.

Mark


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

My theory of backing in is to get a knot or two of speed at about a 45 degree angle to my dock, then about 50 feet out, let off the power and steer. Put the stern within a foot or two of the dock and then steer it up the dock. Burst of forward power to stop. If you time everything right the bow will swing around against the dock. Its also helpful to have the forces of nature on your side, and if the wind and current are against you, lower your expectations for a smooth docking. Its more likely to be lines and boat hook as the poor man's bow thruster, with lots of grunting and possibly yelling.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Yes
Yelling and bad words can help


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Prop behind rudder, I haven't tried that one, but suspect it's extra difficult in reverse.

2 of the 5 boats I've owned had either full keels or Skeg (it won't let me type it unless I use caps) hung rudders. Both of these backed up like s***. They walk like crazy, and somehow my slip always was on the wrong side relative to the walk (which can work for you). 

Two techniques seemed to help. One was to start hard in reverse with the rudder hard over opposite the direction it wants to walk. Then, once enough water is flowing over the rudder, and you feel it starting to "catch" then start to straighten out the rudder. This worked "most" of the time.

The other technique was to use short bursts of forward. The prop in the usual position tends to push some water against the rudder and move the stern one way or the other (even when the boat's motion is backwards). 

Suggest you play with all this away from hard objects like docks to see what it does on your boat.

I cannot help but wonder if a prop behind the rudder, in reverse, couldn't work to your advantage with some manipulation. The prop wash is pushing against the rudder in reverse (much like a conventional setup in forward). I think it's offset too, so I'm not sure what that means, but I'll bet it's helpful or hurtful depending on what side you tie up on.

Good luck. Big spade rudder sailboats can backup straight and make you look like a champ, but lots of these older boats have setups that are "tricky." Don't give up, you can learn it for sure, and when you do, sometimes the strange behavior can be used to your advantage. 

A non-boating friend said to me one day "hey let's park over there." My response, "what do you think this is, a sedan?"


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Back to the question about backing the OPs boat with the prop behind the rudder, is it best to make sure the rudder at the center position initially before giving it any reverse throttle? Seems like have the rudder turned even a bit could accentuate the prop walk....


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I should think that with the prop wash over the rudder in reverse, she should be a dream to back up. Perhaps you just need to practice a bit more. Try backing into the slip, or in the beginning, just down a channel or fairway.
I drove a boat that had a back up rudder forward of the prop. I'd just lock the main rudder amidships and use the other when backing. Single screw 72 footer. Absolutely loved the system.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capta said:


> I should think that with the prop wash over the rudder in reverse, she should be a dream to back up.


That thought occurred to me too, as the more common configuration always leaves the rudder unassisted. I then realized they referred to an offset prop. Likely due to the prop shaft having to clear the rudder post. It's possible there is no prop wash over the rudder in either forward or reverse on this hull.


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## Col45Escape2.0 (Dec 23, 2019)

As a former longtime owner of Bill Crealock's big sister to the Col 28, the Col 36, which had the same setup with the prop and stuffing box in the skeg above the rudder and slightly offset, I found the easiest way to get her out of the slip was to secure the tiller amidship and push her into the fairway scrambling aboard at the bow as she cleared the pilings.
With the engine running in neutral and the jib ready to be hauled, a short engagement in reverse and back to neutral would keep enough way on to parallel the fairway and put her in forward at idle for additional steerage. Most Columbia boats have excellent sailing characteristics with their underbody design. The other advantage of the prop being mounted aft of the rudder is that in kelp ( like San Diego bay entrance) the rudder and keel foul before the prop. A quick " Penalty turn" will allow the kelp to drop off or you can stop and use your boat hook without having to dive the prop.
Mounting an outboard on the transom is way more troublesome both for access and the prop surfacing in a seaway.
Those with a dedicated outboard well are set nearer the center of the boat and keel.
There is a reason that these stout built boats are still in use.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Can you slip a bow line, stern line or amidships line to some point on the dock to help you pivot?


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## Col45Escape2.0 (Dec 23, 2019)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Can you slip a bow line, stern line or amidships line to some point on the dock to help you pivot?


Yes you can if you have crew to unship the line. Otherwise it's troublesome to retrieve while getting underway.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Practice is the key. I found this book to be a big help in learning to get my "new" boat out of her slip:









Maneuver and Dock Your Sailboat Under Power: High Winds, Current, Tight Marina, Backing In? No Problems!: Headifen, Grant: 9781944824068: Amazon.com: Books


Maneuver and Dock Your Sailboat Under Power: High Winds, Current, Tight Marina, Backing In? No Problems! [Headifen, Grant] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Maneuver and Dock Your Sailboat Under Power: High Winds, Current, Tight Marina, Backing In? No Problems!



www.amazon.com





After practicing (a lot), I found that I can make my boat back up the way I want to about 3/4 of the time. And those times when she turns the wrong way (or not at all), I now have the skills to either turn myself around, or to just back out of the fairway.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Wow. I just took a look at the running gear on the Columbia 28 and I feel that I should apologize.
There ain't no prop wash over the rudder in either forward or reverse. That is a terrible set up! I think that would be a no deal for me. Perhaps your best option would to put a trim tab vane gear on the transom and use that rudder for maneuvering?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

A powerboat showed up at the dock the other day equipped with an external thruster. He was quite pleased with it. Perhaps that is a viable solution if the boat handles that badly.






Boat Thrusters | DockStar


DockStar bow and stern thruster is easy to use, easy to install, and very effective. It is the most affordable way to add bow and stern thrusters to any boat.




www.dockstarthrusters.com





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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Its a 28 foot boat.... can't an oar fix the problem?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SchockT said:


> A powerboat showed up at the dock the other day equipped with an external thruster. He was quite pleased with it. Perhaps that is a viable solution if the boat handles that badly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another idea for my older age. Thanks.


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

My outboard Catalina 27 was horrible in reverse too. I'll second the idea of getting some way on in reverse with the rudder centered & then cutting the throttle before you try to turn the boat.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

danvon said:


> My outboard Catalina 27 was horrible in reverse too. I'll second the idea of getting some way on in reverse with the rudder centered & then cutting the throttle before you try to turn the boat.


If the outboard is accessible from the helm, I've found that backing up is a breeze, regardless of conditions. On my old boat (an Oday 23), I could reach the outboard tiller from the helm and use it to steer straight out of my slip, regardless of wind or current, just by "pointing" the prop to counter whatever other forces were acting on the boat. It made getting off or into any dock or slip a relatively stress free affair.


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

mstern said:


> If the outboard is accessible from the helm, I've found that backing up is a breeze, regardless of conditions. On my old boat (an Oday 23), I could reach the outboard tiller from the helm and use it to steer straight out of my slip, regardless of wind or current, just by "pointing" the prop to counter whatever other forces were acting on the boat. It made getting off or into any dock or slip a relatively stress free affair.


That helped on our boat too (a poor man's thruster I suppose) although not in all situations. I figured it was not going to help the OP.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

My first boat the outboard didn't even have reverse. If I wanted to go backward I had to spin it around 180°. Steering it out of the slip by thrust vectoring was easy.

Even on a bigger boat one can always get a tiller extension for the outboard.

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## p1l0t (Jul 22, 2020)

Steering... in REVERSE!? LOL man I'm spoiled with my mooring. Always into the wind.. although this season was interesting needing to dingy everytime since launch service closed due to COVID..

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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

p1l0t said:


> Steering... in REVERSE!? LOL man I'm spoiled with my mooring. Always into the wind.. although this season was interesting needing to dingy everytime since launch service closed due to COVID..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


You are missing out on one of the most fun parts of boat owning, IMO. I just love the opportunity to use my boat handling skills docking, be it bow first, stern first or alongside, in even the most adverse conditions. Putting a boat (for me a 50+ footer) on a mooring, even single handed, isn't going to do much to improve your boat handling skills.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capta said:


> I just love the opportunity to use my boat handling skills docking, be it bow first, stern first or alongside, in even the most adverse conditions.


Pretty cool that you feel that way. I love the sense of accomplishment and feel I can dock a boat maybe a bit better than the average bear. Well, looking around at the ocassional marina ping pong, maybe quite a bit better than average, just not claiming to be bullet proof. While I always try to appear modest, inside I'm grinning ear to ear, if anyone mentions a docking went well and guests almost always do. Our home slip is complex and a bit challenging (stop, backup, make two turns in reverse, then essentially parallel park along the main dock, with a boat in front and behind us. The fairways are narrower than our LOA, so there is no turning around, once committed. It looks even more challenging than it is, especially with favorable wind.

However, not my fav part of boating. I've told myself a thousand times that wind over 20kts and I just want to wait it out. Remote work this past summer finally made that possible. I mean adverse wind that is preventing a turn, or blowing me off the slip and into a hazzard. If I can use the wind to my advantage, 20+ doesn't bother me.

When we cruise, we mostly anchor, which is my first choice. I prefer the privacy and ease. Just getting docklines, fenders, plugging in, etc, etc, is an effort. Dropping the hook and weighing it are a breeze and far more enjoyable.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

capta said:


> You are missing out on one of the most fun parts of boat owning, IMO. I just love the opportunity to use my boat handling skills docking, be it bow first, stern first or alongside, in even the most adverse conditions. Putting a boat (for me a 50+ footer) on a mooring, even single handed, isn't going to do much to improve your boat handling skills.


I have never rented a slip for the boat since 1985. Winter I used to haul out, but now I am mostly storing in water. However I am not "in a slip" but along side actually in a corner between two docks which allows me to use my stern boarding ladder if have the port side to B dock which I have B1. I will not keep the boat there for the foreseeable future for multiple reasons.









I am quite skilled now with my boat which kicks over to starboard in reverse and I can get in a space along side that is only slightly longer than my LOA. North is up.

However getting the boat "backed" into B1 shown as the bullseye is something I have not attempted and am not sure how to do, Perhaps what I will try is to back down with the boat point NW so as the boat move SE it will also kick the stern to the north. The other approach is to dock on the main NS dock and then warp the boat over to B dock. Getting off is not a problem being in that corner. When I have time in the Spring with no wind I will practice and see what I can manage. Marina is pretty empty now,

Or maybe I should go starboard to on the main NS dock with the stern against B dock?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

With our old 30ft tiller-steered boat I adapted to docking pretty easily because the boat was very responsive and turned on a dime. The tiller allowed quick adjustments, and you could even scull the stern around with a good hardyank on the tiller. I did avoid backing into slips whenever possible because the rudder was unbalanced, so if you were going in reverse and started to turn the force on the rudder was quite strong and would go hard-over if the tiller got away from you!

When we moved up to a 39ft wheel steered boat it felt absolutely huge compared to what I was used to. Clearances were harder to judge, particularly if the dock was on the port side since the engine controls were by the starboard side wheel. I actually researched maneuvering techniques on YouTube and started practicing what I learned. I learned the back-and-fill method of rotating the boat on it's own length using bursts of forward and reverse with the helm hard over, making my propwalk work FOR me instead of against....what a breakthrough that was for me! The first time I used that technique I was alone delivering the boat to a marinat to be hauled out. The slip I had to get into was very tight, and the fairway was very narrow. I applied what I had learned and spun the boat on its length and eased into the slip like a pro, stepped off the boat and tied up. A guy walking by said "wow! Nice job!" Definitely very satisfying!

Of course I had another episode last summer where I tried to get the boat turned in a tight area in order to back in between a row of stern tied boats. I under estimated the crosswind and wasn't able to get the boat turned around as I drifted down on the row of boats. Fortunately there plenty of people around to help muscle the boat around with no harm done except to my ego! I felt a little better when another boat came in and made the exact same mistake I did! But, I know exactly what I did wrong and what I will do next time, so it's all good!

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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SanderO said:


> I have never rented a slip for the boat since 1985. Winter I used to haul out, but now I am mostly storing in water. However I am not "in a slip" but along side actually in a corner between two docks which allows me to use my stern boarding ladder if have the port side to B dock which I have B1. I will not keep the boat there for the foreseeable future for multiple reasons.
> View attachment 138144
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know how others approach this stuff, but to me it is just plain fun.
I'm just so jealous of the ferry drivers around here, getting to make all those dockings every week. Driving a boat from here to there and back can be pretty routine, but each docking is a fresh challenge. These days the only docking I get to do is for fuel, a couple of times a year, and pulling into the travel lift slip.
Delivery captains need to be especially competent in this area. If a captain can't get the boat off or on the dock in most conditions, the owner's confidence can get shaken. It's unlikely he'll recommend that captain to his friends. They don't get to practice, they just have to expect that the boat will do as it is asked.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

SchockT said:


> With our old 30ft tiller-steered boat I adapted to docking pretty easily because the boat was very responsive and turned on a dime. The tiller allowed quick adjustments, and you could even scull the stern around with a good hardyank on the tiller. I did avoid backing into slips whenever possible because the rudder was unbalanced, so if you were going in reverse and started to turn the force on the rudder was quite strong and would go hard-over if the tiller got away from you!
> 
> When we moved up to a 39ft wheel steered boat it felt absolutely huge compared to what I was used to. Clearances were harder to judge, particularly if the dock was on the port side since the engine controls were by the starboard side wheel. I actually researched maneuvering techniques on YouTube and started practicing what I learned. I learned the back-and-fill method of rotating the boat on it's own length using bursts of forward and reverse with the helm hard over, making my propwalk work FOR me instead of against....what a breakthrough that was for me! The first time I used that technique I was alone delivering the boat to a marinat to be hauled out. The slip I had to get into was very tight, and the fairway was very narrow. I applied what I had learned and spun the boat on its length and eased into the slip like a pro, stepped off the boat and tied up. A guy walking by said "wow! Nice job!" Definitely very satisfying!
> 
> ...


At the yard I used to winter... I had to park m y boat in a slip when bring the boat in for storage... The yard would move the boat to the travel lift... and the reverse in the Spring, It was a pretty tight set up. I could turn on the boat around in its length in place with no wind or current. But add current or wind... no way it would stay put and "rotate"... I found that out once when there was strong current and as I turned I moved down and toward the slips to the south. YIKES. I think I managed to barely turn around but no way could I get the bow into the slip I wanted... because the current would keep setting me onto the boat in the next slip. Perhaps with some people on the bow on each side 'fending off"... Current and wind make controlled maneuvering in tight spaces essentially impossible with my boat and I doubt practice will change that. Current in Schooner Cove is nothing like it was at West Harrbor. I'll see what I can do next spring.

My new idea is to have two docking options:


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