# Contest Yachts



## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

hello everyone im kinda new here well not really i mean ive been lurking the forums for years but i never really had a need to ask questions till now. But recentrly instead of crewing on friends boats i went and purchased my own since i was eager to get more on water time myself. SO in august i purchased a contest 30 type a the one that klooks like the 29 on deck. Now i am planning for a hop to bermuda and back within the next 5 years when i have finished work on the boat. Now i have a few questions a) the absence of a compression post anywhere in the boat strikes me as odd is it like that for all of thses boats i mean it seems relatively stiff and solid just curious, two i was wondering if to sprevent the likliehood of being swamped in the case of a large breaking wave i should mould some port covers that could be fastened on the exterior of the window. Next the boat i bought did not have a built in stove, although all the others ive seen do it just seems to have had 2 iceboxes instead of one and a stove. next the bow has side to side stringers which im sure provide support to the foredeck and while the boat seems very heavily built the boa weems rather weakly built in comparison any ideas for strengthening it. also the traveler has clam cleats and id lkike to change to cam but i need no input on that really however i would appreciate any plans of the hull, deck or others specs because im also planning on fitting some sort of a windvane most likely i will build it myself due to general poorness aha. also it seems to not have a bilge pump so a diaphragm pump is priority numero uno. however in terms f installing one would i be correct to assume putting a loop to the top of the deck floor with an ano siphon vlve and a thru hull halfway between the waterline and the the deck and maybe a seacock as well. a bilge pump is particularily important because well everything drains to the bilge in this boat the sink the chain locker all of it however the hull does seem very solid and the inside is completely covered in epoxy which definitely the chainplates were inspected by a rigger and he said they and the standing rigging are almost new and have plenty of life in them so thats good. so pretty much any info on the boat would be appreciated in aditttion the rudder seems rather trembly im assuming thats due to turbulence caused by the keel and skeg in any case it almost feels as if it has prop wash constantly which it doesnt because the inboard we replaced with an outboard although it still has a working transmmission. So my list of things to get so far is blge pump, windvane, storm jib, storm hatch covers, solar panels to charge batteries, a series drogue, a collision mat and some tarp just in case some sailtape and some jacklines (already have the harness crewing on other ppls boats) any other ideas, the boat is very barebones with no chartplotter or speed sensor or wind or anything, i have a compass some charts and a handheld gps and a vhf personally even when im on friends boats with a chartplotter i double check by hand anyways


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

I put Contest 30 into a search engine. The consensus is the boat has good craftsmanship, strong construction, and the helm is balanced. The deck has no balsa core to rot out, so it may seem thin and might give a bit. You could always put a compression post in, but may want to check with other boat owners to see if the arch holding the mast is strong. Probably is. The propeller could cause the turbulence around the rudder and you may want to have it pulled, but leave the shaft in place, otherwise plugging the shaft hole so that it is impossible to leak might be a problem. The original engine was said to be an A4 gasoline. At 10 horsepower, it has to be a direct drive running at low RPM. You might also want a small electrical bilge pump that will keep the water down when the boat is unattended, besides a large manual diaphragm pump. As for electronics, at least get a depth finder, GPS and VHF radio combination. A chart plotter would also be nice.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Some general comments*



duchess of montrose said:


> hello everyone im kinda new here well not really i mean ive been lurking the forums for years but i never really had a need to ask questions till now. But recentrly instead of crewing on friends boats i went and purchased my own since i was eager to get more on water time myself. SO in august i purchased a contest 30 type a the one that klooks like the 29 on deck. Now i am planning for a hop to bermuda and back within the next 5 years when i have finished work on the boat. Now i have a few questions a) the absence of a compression post anywhere in the boat strikes me as odd is it like that for all of thses boats i mean it seems relatively stiff and solid just curious, two i was wondering if to sprevent the likliehood of being swamped in the case of a large breaking wave i should mould some port covers that could be fastened on the exterior of the window. Next the boat i bought did not have a built in stove, although all the others ive seen do it just seems to have had 2 iceboxes instead of one and a stove. next the bow has side to side stringers which im sure provide support to the foredeck and while the boat seems very heavily built the boa weems rather weakly built in comparison any ideas for strengthening it. also the traveler has clam cleats and id lkike to change to cam but i need no input on that really however i would appreciate any plans of the hull, deck or others specs because im also planning on fitting some sort of a windvane most likely i will build it myself due to general poorness aha. also it seems to not have a bilge pump so a diaphragm pump is priority numero uno. however in terms f installing one would i be correct to assume putting a loop to the top of the deck floor with an ano siphon vlve and a thru hull halfway between the waterline and the the deck and maybe a seacock as well. a bilge pump is particularily important because well everything drains to the bilge in this boat the sink the chain locker all of it however the hull does seem very solid and the inside is completely covered in epoxy which definitely the chainplates were inspected by a rigger and he said they and the standing rigging are almost new and have plenty of life in them so thats good. so pretty much any info on the boat would be appreciated in aditttion the rudder seems rather trembly im assuming thats due to turbulence caused by the keel and skeg in any case it almost feels as if it has prop wash constantly which it doesnt because the inboard we replaced with an outboard although it still has a working transmmission. So my list of things to get so far is blge pump, windvane, storm jib, storm hatch covers, solar panels to charge batteries, a series drogue, a collision mat and some tarp just in case some sailtape and some jacklines (already have the harness crewing on other ppls boats) any other ideas, the boat is very barebones with no chartplotter or speed sensor or wind or anything, i have a compass some charts and a handheld gps and a vhf personally even when im on friends boats with a chartplotter i double check by hand anyways


i don't know this particular boat, but some comments I would make:

Not sure you need storm shutters for the ports unless they are quite large. If they are the standard size I suspect you are ok without them.
 Having everything drain into the bilge I find particularly undesirable. You may want to put a couple of throughhulls in for this purpose. What does the head do? Perhaps you can use it for the head sink drain too.
 If you would feel better having a compression post go ahead, at worst it would provide a good handhold in the middle of the boat and that is always a good thing.
 Have you had the boat out of the water to test the rudder? Just give it a good tuck or two in any direction it can move. If it wobbly then you need to replace a bearing or two, if not, the wiggling might just be an oddity of the boat.
 Edson used to make a monstrous great manual blige pump - they claimed a gallon a stroke. Check the consignment stores and see if you can get one - way better than a Whale or Henderson. I would agree with someone else who suggested an electric one for routine water. They are cheap and easy. 
 If you are going with the outboard rather than an inboard, have you pulled old engine? Would provide a terrific storage space.
 For cooking, the cheapest and easiest approach might be an Origo, non-pressurized alchohol 2 burner. You could use one of your ice boxes for longer term food storage and strap the cooker to the top.
Before getting a storm jib, imagine what it would be like to change jibs at the point the storm jib would be needed. If you have a furler it gets nasty since when you lower the jib it is only connected at three corners and you need to keep it onboard before you can remove it. How large a crew do you envision? hard to with one person. Would it be possible to install a removable inner stay just for the storm jib? Deck would need to reinforced and you likely would want running backstays for support.
Keep your eyes open for a used Monitor or Aries vane. You do see them on eBay sometimes. Handmade vanes can be tricky to get to work. The ones I have seen being used cruising are typically on very long-keeled, traditional boats that probably would steer themselves pretty well anyway. Also, see if you find a copy of John Letcher's book on steering a boat with lines from sheets to tiller (if you have such). Final steering thought - if this is going to be a one-off trip to Bermuda a wheel pilot autohelm would likely be all you need. If you are going to do a lot of offshore you will want the vane.
On a 30' boat you will be pressed for space so if you can have one item do two or three things you should. In this regard you probably could use the storm jib as a collision mat. Since you are unlikely to use either, don't spend more (in terms of space or money) than you have to.
I would either go for a chartplotter (they do make life easier) or at least a second handheld GPS. Again there is the question of one offshore passage or many. If the latter and you are going strictly with paper charts it can get very expensive. If you have a plotter you do need some paper charts not everyone there is and you can get by with older charts. If you are only doing Bermuda you only need a couple of charts at the Bermuda end to go with the local charts or chartbook at the US end.

Good luck


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

the older version of the 30 which is th one i have has a doghouse so the windows are pretty large i wean there not giant panels like some of the new jenneaus and such but there not tiny either however they are quite thick but id like to be as prepared as i can possibly be id like to be able to take a 120 foot breaking wave broadside and survive, rigless of course but survive. the head drains directly to the water via a thru hull with a masive seacock, no macerator or holding tank at all the not having drain thru hulls does help have less thru hulls therefore less things to cause sinking. and again with the compresion post a) good handhold b) u can never be too prepared for the worst in terms of the rudder its out atm for winter storage so ill test it before launch this spring and ive heard edson makes the best bilge pumps so ill definitely be hunting for one and yes i sdo think an automatic one would be a good idea in addition, the inboard has already been removed, im thinking of screwing a plywood floor to the engine mounts and using it as storage for freshwater jugs, oh and it already has a honda 4 stroke 8 hp outboard on it which sems to be reliable and it charges my batteries as for cooking i have a two burner butane stove but i want to make it gimballed somehow, as for the storm jib it has hanks no roller furling and a downhaul for safety ans it has a bowsprit of two and a half feet so i could always have the storms jib on the outer forestay, thanks for the tip on the collision map that is true takes space that food could have been in, in terms of chartplotters i may sucumb to them but ive always had a thing agaisnt them mostly cause of one time when the blidin light of it made me unable to see the buoys in a narrow chanell so i kinda marked them as a hazard rather than a help but it is true that charts are expensive but theres always photocopying and i o have a laptop with charting software which i can use as a cabin chartplotter if it is necessarry. in terms of wther bermuda would be the only offshore trip hat depends on how it goes if it seems like it goes well i may take the azored route over to europe and explore the med and the north sea, if not its just a hop back to canada. in your opinion though will i need a series drogue and a storm jib my main is also boom furling so that acts as my trysail kinda i will experiment with sheet to tiller, although im on the lookout for a vane, i have heaard since the keel is a long keel not full or 3/4 but a long shoal fin with a skeg that steering should be pretty balanced and if i let go of the tiller it does take a goodd while to veer off course as for the arch it definitely is strong because in my maiden voyage on her just seeing how she handled we had some decent swells around the bruce peninsula and there was no flexing at all its not the deck thats thin its just the bow near the deck to hull connection i dont like but i suppose that part is far from the water anyways


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Before you commit on a budget to an Edson manual pump you should know the price. You can buy a very good pump from Henderson for a lot less. The Edson is over $700 in aluminum and over $1000 in bronze. Edson - Edson 30 GPM, Manual Diaphragm Pump, Offset Drive Bottom Inlet

Here's a good Henderson for $150 HENDERSON BP0510 MK 5 UNIVERSAL PUMP Binnacle.com


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

oh i thought i saw an edson manual bilge pump on the sailnet store for like 100 bucks or is that different. but yes 700 dollars is rather significant as in i could use that money for a storm sail or a series drogue or as part of my windvane budget or for an ssb radio but holy 30 gpm i could rip my keel off and still keep afloat.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here is Edson's pump page: Emergency Pump Kits : Edson Marine Store

Sailnet does have a side inlet Edson for $193 but it is not on Edson's website.
Edson - Edson Bone Dry Manual Side Inlet Pump - Aluminum - 117AL-150

I would install a pump like the Henderson so you can pump from the cockpit. Sailing alone I wouldn't want to deal with a portable pump and control the boat - a built-in pump that can be used in the cockpit while steering is better I think.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

yes i think i will go with that one that you posted earlier 20 gpm is a very good output rate i mean if the water is coming any faster than that ur first priority should probably be stopping the leak not pumping away although i am not planning on being alone i will have my fiance with me however she has no interest in actually sailing she just wants to come along for the sights and the experience not so keen on triming the sails or manning the helm. how would u instal the pump so that it can be used from the cockpit id asume u mount it under deck with a hole drilled thru where the handle goes


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

You mount it in the wall of the cockpit well, so the pump is inside the cockpit locker. The handle inserts from outside the locker through a waterproof gland. They make several different pumps and they can be seen here Marine : Whale Pumps 12V Henderson Plumbing Bilge Diaphragm Submersible Pressure Water Systems Marine Caravan RV Shower Drain Portable Sanitation Purging Groundwater Solutions Voltage Electric

Here's a drawing of the 20 gal/minute pump:


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

ok sounds relatively straightforward, should be easy to install


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

You have the absolute wrong boat if you would "like to be able to take a 120 foot breaking wave broadside and survive". My family owned a Contest of the same era as your boat. While Contests were beautifully finished inside, from a build quality standpoint and mopre specifically from a structural viewpoint, they were very poorly engineered and constructed. While some of the built in defects may have been corrected by prior owners, and some of the could be corrected with a massive rebuilding effort, there is no work around for the poor handling characteristics of these boats. 

And while this is true of many boats of this era, structurally, the internal framing of the Contests consisted of softwood framing poorly glassed into the hull. These elements included ncluded the tranverse frames which transfered the keel loads out to the hull. 

Another questionable structural element was the mast support. On our boat, the mast would compress the deck to the point that if you chose to close the door to the forward cabin, the deck would compress making it impossible re-open the door again until sheets were eased and the point of sail altered sufficiently to take the strain off of the mast support. 

Other build quality issues which may have been corrected by now, included a dubious electrical system which would cut out, and short out at random, black iron fuel tanks and iron engine exhaust systems. 

During the time that we owned our boat, my father remedied as many of these built-in defects. The rest we lived with. 

But the sailing characteristics was the worst thing about these boats. These were early fin keel-spade rudder boats. The hull forms were such that as these boats heeled over, they would jack up out of the water, and suddenly and unpredictably reach a point where they would aerate their rudders and round up without any warning. I have been on other boats with this same issue, but these were the worst that I have ever experienced. In many boats with this problem, there was some kind of clue that this was about to occur, and you would learn to watch for that clue such as limiting the heel to a maximum heel angle that was safe to prevent the round-up. In the case of the Contest in gusty conditions, this happened so suddenly, and without a 'tell', that you could not play the sails quickly enough to prevent the round up, and the round up could be so quick that it can throw you onto the other tack. 

In constant wind and wave conditions this was not much of a problem, you could tweak and feather, but in the larger waves encountered offshore, and with the difference in wind strength between the trough and the crest, these boats would quickly wear down a crew. 

For that reason, while these boats might make reasonable coastal cruisers, they would be somewhere near the bottom of a list of boats that I would ever think of making an offshore passage in. 

Jeff


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

i was unaware of the rounding up, seing as i only sailed her twice so far having bought her at the end of the season for a relatively low price, i was under the impression that the bloaty feeling would lead to relatively higher comfort offshore and durability, my forward door does close but that might just be coincidental but i thought mine had a skeg so im not sure wether that means mine will round up to im more used to production boats so i figured the sluggish motion would have increased safety offshore so maybe i should reconcider i kind of bought it under the impression that it was a decent offshore boat seing as it has simmilar lines to an alberg 30 and a good capsize ratio, but having heard this i think i may just refinish her and sell and mybe buy a different boat for the bermuda trip instead not that theres much chance of hitting 120 foot waves between here and bermuda at the right time of the year but my number one priority is safety


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

its a shame i hadnt hear this stuff before i bought or i might have opted for the contessa 26 i was looking at for the same price but alas with boats like these its hard to find information....which model was urs btw


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

ALERT .I was amazed at how my big whale gusher deteriorated over time. Both the castings and the rubber parts. If you haven't done so recently, check it out before you REALLY need it.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

oh so maybe i willl go with the henderson one instead of whale because that doesnt sound very promising, but atm i am rather perturbed by the previous comment it does not instill faith in my boat in me because i was under the impression they were very stoutly built fir the north sea as every forum i had consulted before buying had said and how she felt told me but having not done any offshore work and only being familiar with beeneteaus and jenneaus and the like i just noticed she looked much more hevily built than them but now i am having second thoughts and im not sure i bought the right boat hmm


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

With all due respect, there is no resemblance between the below the waterline lines of a Contest 30 and an Alberg 30. While I am not all that great a fan of the Alberg 30's, the Albergs were more of wine glass shaped hull while the Contest had a much harder turn of the bilge, and shallow vee'd bottom, which caused them to jack upward out of the water, and round up. The Alberg has a longer keel than the Contest (although that is somewhat offset by the Contest's more efficient detached rudder).

As for the issue of the capsize screen formula, as I have explained many times in the past on this forum, (and I am about to explain yet again) the capsize screen formula and the Motion Comfort Index tell almost nothing about the reality of a boat's likelihood of capsize or its actual motion comfort. In fact they provide so little indication of a boat's behavior that to rely on them in any way borders on the dangerous. 

Both of these formulas were developed at a time when boats were a lot more similar to each other than they are today. These formulas have limited utility in comparing boats other than those which are very similar in weight and buoyancy distribution to each other. Neither formula contains almost any of the real factors that control motion comfort, the likelihood of capsize, or seaworthiness. Neither formula contains such factors as the vertical center of gravity or buoyancy, neither contains weight or buoyancy distribution (of the hull both below and above the waterline), the extent to which the beam of the boat is carried fore and aft, and neither contains any data on dampening, all of which really are the major factors that control motion comfort or the likelihood of capsize. 

I typically give this example to explain just how useless and dangerously misleading these formulas can be. If we had two boats that were virtually identical except that one had a 1000 pound weight at the top of the mast. (Yes, I know that no one would install a 1000 lb weight at the top of the mast.) The boat with the weight up its mast would appear to be less prone to capsize under the capsize screen formula, and would appear to be more comfortable under the Motion Comfort ratio. Nothing would be further than the truth. 

And while this example would clearly appear to be so extreme as to be worthy of dismissal, in reality, if you had two boats, one with a very heavy interior, shoal draft, its beam carried towards the ends of the boat near the deck line, a heavy deck and cabin, perhaps with traditional teak decks and bulwarks, a very heavy rig, heavy deck hardware, a hard bottomed dingy stored on its cabin top, and the resultant comparatively small ballast ratio made up of low density ballast. And if we compare that to a boat that is lighter overall, but it has a deep draft keel, with a higher ballast ratio, the bulk of the ballast carried in a bulb, its maximum beam carried to a single point in the deck so that there was less deck area near the maximum beam, a lighter weight hull, deck and interior as well as a lighter, but taller rig, it would be easy to see that the second boat would potentially have less of a likelihood of being capsized, and it is likely that the second boat would roll and pitch through a smaller angle, and would probably have better dampening and so roll and pitch at a similar rate to the heavier boat, in other words offer a better motion comfort....And yet, under the Capsize Screen Formula and the Motion Comfort Index it would appear that the first boat would be less prone to capsize and have a better motion when obviously this would not be the case.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

im not disagreeing with u its just rather upsetting to me having done all this reasearch hearing all thses things about how its stoutly built and suited to offshore work and then seeing the boat and noticing the sluggishness and figuring that because it feels almost like a suv of boats it must be heavier bult and therefore less likely to smash to peices, but i will agree that there were some amazing benefits to the way race boats today are built for example the lift of a deep bulb keel and the negative drag it creates is definitely a safety feature because it actually reduces capsize rishk and everyone whos passed high school physics understands that the farther away a weight is on a fulcrum the more leverage it has although it also makes it terribly unprotected in groundings, but so i guess im just not quite sure which end to beleive on the contest side wether the enormous percentage of the total displacement that is ballast would actually help in terms of preventing a knockdown and in the case of a 120 foot breaker im fairly certain any yacht would be knocked down im more intersted in would the superstructure survive i mean obviously the rig would be toast u say that all the 60s 70s boats were like this does that mean if i decide to sell and buy a new boat i shouldnt look at alberg 30s or contessa 26 or 32s either and yes im aware the alberg and contest have different underwater lines i was talking about the way they look in water. and does the skeg provide any stability advantage over a spade rudder or is that what causes this rounding up which might be rather frightening when trying to heave to which i havent tried on this boat yet not that it works terribly well on any fin keel boat anyways


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Is this the Contest 30 you have? It is the only Contest 30 listed, built starting in 1974

From Sailboat Data:


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

nope there were to very different versipn of the 30 that version is the modern layout mine is the contest 30 mark 1 sailboat data doesnt actyually have it but in essence it is a contest 29 that had an alumium mast and an l shaped sett instead of an i sahape and 1 foot more length and 1 foot or so more beam as well as some other nonimportant details like a hatch at the stern, a slihtly different forward hatchumm the door to the forward cabin is also ofset to one side of the mast as opposed to directly beneath it that may be why i havent noticed the hjamming of it when sailing but it is more like the 29 than the 30 that u can see on sailboatdata in fact the 30 i have was a vey limited production run it was almost just a different version of the 29


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

Contest Yacht Owners Club if you go to the model overview and scroll down to contest 30 mk1 it was designed by gerard luyten as opposed to vsan essen or zaal as the other thirties all in all there were about 4 or 5 fdifferent contest 30s built, all by different designers but yes this is essentially the 29 but modified and having an offset bulkhead


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

All I could find is this pic, no idea of underwater shape or ballast/displacement etc.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

CONTEST 29 sailboat on sailboatdata.com looks pretty much like that but slightly beamier and longer and the cabin as i mentioned is ofset a bit and it apperantly has slightly more ballast


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

yup thats the one i found a pic of one for sale showing the underwater shape CONOPLEX BV HOLLAND CONTEST 30/1 and if u scroll thru u should be able to see what i mean by offset bulkhead and theres a close up of the rudder in question too i just want some input before i invest money and sweat equity into this boat


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here are the pics you found, 2 of the hull and 2 showing the main bulkhead supporting the mast.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't think I would say it is a disaster exactly. Do you have the displacement and ballast figures? The advert states 30' x 28' WL (?) x 9'3" beam and draft of 4'3". I doubt the waterline length is correct though - looks more like 24 or 25.


Jeff is correct about the capsize screening formula though - it only uses 2 factors, beam and displacement. For a given beam heavier wins. Sad actually that it has achieved such notoriety.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

oh i mean that i dont dispute of course a mathematical formula can only have a limited number of variables and obviously it cant be to complex im just asking do u think from the looks of it if we assume simmilar figures as the 29as they have almost identical underbodies do u think hes right about it being shoddily constructed because i dont want to invest in something i wont be bale to use how i want it i was hoping to step up from coastal cruising with this boat, in any case if theres any ideas of mods u can thin of or anything to salvage my dream that would be good too but umm according to the previous owner the displacement is 9000 dry and 4000 ballast which puts it at a simmilar weight as the 29 but with higher ballast to displacement ratio 8500 to 3300 vs 9000 to 4000


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

the waterline should be 24 i mean in order to have a 28 foot waterline at 30 feet it would not have the overhangs it has and it would most liely need a plumb bow which it clearly doesnt have


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The ballast/displacement ratio of 44% on a narrow beam, even with a fairly shallow keel, is good.
I think the big issue is how it is actually constructed although I don't think it can be that shoddy.

We can't all have a Farr 11.6.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

thats what i figured, and i figured having the doghouse assuming i make storms shutters means if it does cpsize having a largwe volume of air pushed 2 feet underwater will actually act as negative ballst as air does not lie being pushed underwater same principle the coast guards 60 footers use i beleive. in terms of the lay up before buying it i was under the impression hand lay up is more sturdy than chop and it does have very thick fiberglass except for the bow right at the deck to hull mount but its only the bow everywhere else at the keel it is several inches thick and at the waterline it is around an inch and a quarter thic but the idea of these framing elements does not exactly create faith in its seahandling ability i can say when u take it out in the water which i have only had occassion to do twice it feels like a 9000 pound block of lead and it takes forever to accellarate, but if i can improve the structural elements that would be great, and yes i agree some of us cant afford a boat built in the last twenty years although farr does build beautifull boats if i had the money my dream boat is actually a c and c 121 but i was always under the impression that boats from the sixties and seventies were the most seaworthy and the eighties were concidered the dark ages no


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I think we are starting to get a better understanding of what the model is exactly. The 29 and your 30 were designed by different people so the fact that they have a similar look may hide the fact that there are subtle but important differences in the hull shape.

Jeff is very knowledgeable about boat designs and has worked as a designer. Since he has personal experience with Contests of the era of yours you should listen to what he has to say. One caveat, he has a much higher appreciation of modern designs than the traditional, but the reality is that for many people the cost of a modern, quality cruising boat is just not in the ball park so the question becomes, which of the older boats is best.

Some other comments, if your fiance is going to go offshore with you, she MUST be an active crewmember. There are no passengers in boats of the size we are talking about. We cruise in a 36,000 lb, 45 footer and there is still no room for a passenger. If she tries to go along to keep you company she will be miserable and so will you. If she does not want to be an active crewmember, find someone to go with you and have her fly to Bermuda - it is a great spot to visit.

I don't think they still make the Edson pump I mentioned - that is my I mentioned trying to find one used. If it were new you could not afford one anyway. They were close to $1000 20 years ago - but they do an incredible job. I agree with the comments about Whale pumps, the aluminum castings do corrode and the pumps are very pricey - the Hendersons are better since they are all plastic.

The trip to Bermuda can be totally benign or you can get the crap kicked out of you - it is totally unpredictable. It is not like the Southern Ocean and the chance of a knockdown is very slight at the season you should go - late May - early June departure from Lake Ontario is ideal. To all the people who say that Great Lake sailing can be just like offshore, it ain't true. I sailed on the lakes for close to 40 years before heading off and the conditions are different. The lakes can be terrible in November for example, but people aren't sailing then. On the ocean we have had periods of a week where the winds were never less than 25 knots and often more like 35 knots - you never get that on the lakes. Most people think in terms of one bad storm or squall, beyond that are the extended periods of fairly high winds and swells/waves in the 10 to 15 foot range.

Not sure what your budget range is, but there are some incredible bargains around. Saw in Gam that there was a Hullmaster 27 (Brewer design/decent build I think) for $2900. It may be a piece of junk but at least illustrates what a keen seller wants. Some people are still thinking about what they paid for their boat not the realities of the market - you just need to find the realistic ones. If you are considering an Alberg 30 or Contessa 32, I would lean to the latter with one warning - many Contessas were bought as hull and decks and finished at home and that may be a very good thing or not ... Also, headroom is a bit limited as I remember if you are more than about 5'10".


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

killarney_sailor said:


> Jeff is very knowledgeable about boat designs and has worked as a designer. Since he has personal experience with Contests of the era of yours you should listen to what he has to say. One caveat, he has a much higher appreciation of modern designs than the traditional, but the reality is that for many people the cost of a modern, quality cruising boat is just not in the ball park so the question becomes, which of the older boats is best.


I prefer to describe my preferences a little differently. It is true that I am a big fan of many of the newer design trends, but I am also genuinely a fan of traditional working watercraft and the designs which faithfully derive from them.

What I am not a fan of, is the CCA and IOR race rule distorted designs which came in the period (1950's, 1960's, 1970's into the 1980's) between the era of traditional sailing craft and the present. I am also not a fan of some of the so-called 'character boats' which pretend to be traditional designs above the waterline but offer none of the virtues of either modern designs or the traditional, while retaining the liabilities of both. I know that some people would refer to these CCA design (and to a lesser extent IOR designs) as traditional, but I do not. I see these distorted designs as an aberation from the millennia long, trial and error evolution of wholesome design principles which resulted in the better working water craft, as well as, earlier purpose built cruising designs.

My criticisms of older boats are often misunderstood. I completely understand that not everyone can afford to buy a modern design to go distance cruising. The real point of my comments is not to suggest that only new designs are suitable for cruising. My real point is to suggest that if one wants to voyage under sail cheaply, one should search for one of the more suitable designs of an era.

The cost difference between buying a well-designed and well-constructed boat of any specific era, vs something less suitable is negligible. But the inherent seaworthiness, sailing ability and robustness of the better boat will reduce the inherent risk, as well as the costs to upgrade and operate the boat. This is especially true as these boats are now 40-50 years old and so the impact of poor build practices are more likely to become apparent when these boats are subjected to the stresses of being fully stocked during an offshore passage.

I would also note that I am highly skeptical of the 44% ballast to displacement mentioned. Based on the Contest 25 and Contest 29's of that era, I would expect the ballast ratio to be down around 35-36% or so. That is not especially good for a narrow, shoal draft 30 footer.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

i do agree with him im one to air on the side of caution id rather listen to somone pointing out the issues with it rather than listen to everyone else ive seen on forums talking about how seaworthy they are then get caught out in something and have the hull smashed in, i was just thinking it might be more economically feasible to modify the structure since it does have a good amount of glass im sure reframing the hull would be able to fix the structural defects, as for the keel that may not be abvoided i just dont think ill have the money to own two boats and fix the hullmaster up with whatever it needs and since its difficult to sell a 40 year old obscure boat i think im stuck with the contest also in terms of the 29 and the 30 bothe the 29 and the 30 mark 1 were designed by luyten whereas the newer 30s were designed by zaal and essen but mine is the early 30 so in that way we do have some indformation. in terms of the bilge pumps i think i might as well get the henderson so i have less things i have to hunt for used. As for the fiance i will give it some thought i figured id essentially be singlehanding but shed be there for altternating watches and in case of emergency i figured she could do things that require no real previous experience like pumping the bilge while i manned the helm. and i do understand offshore is a totally different bird, ive been thru a few squalls on the great lakes but im sure thats nothing compared to a gale in the atlantic, but i figured going to bermuda id get a sense of the difference while being close enough to land to have a sense of security and the ability to be rescued if the boat ends up on the ocean floor in terms of albergs i always thought the albergs were the best designs especially the 30 didnt the guy who invented the cape horn gear circumnavigate in jean du sud which was an alberg 30 although the contessa 32s seem to be rather espensive here as in 50 000 and over. anyways if i absolutely have to get a different boat i guess i could try to sell the contest and if not ill have to put off the trip till i can afford both boats and storage and whatnot for both which i really dont want because id like to just have one to worry about


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

i think i get what u mean since the contest is not a full keeled boat it does not have the advantage a full keel has yet ist still has the bow and the beam of a full keeled boat and also the under body is almost like somone just snapped of the forefoot and cut off the back quarter of the keel which obviously causes turbulence which most likely causes the aeration ive talked about but im more concerned less about the rounding up which cvan usually be corrected by adjustments to the helm as the load transfers from the keel but in all fairness i think you should advise whoever is writing that offshore boat list on this forum to remove the contests of this era from the thread because it is misleading, i also was mislead by the fact that it feels much more solid compared to say a catalina or a benetau but i suppose i was fooled having never really had experience on older boats i just assumed because it seemed rugged it was and having heard of many people who did offshore work with them as well as ppl praising the design on this forum but i guess that those ppl must have not encountered heavy weather as you can go anywhere in anything with the right conditions although it doesnt give you the peace of mind im looking for in being able to heave to and know u wont be blown to peices by a large breaker


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I agree with Jeff that you need to have the best boat within your budget range. Contessa 32s are advertised in the low to mid 30k range on Yachtworld. Those who are asking 50k are living in a time warp and think it is still 2007. Not saying that this is the boat, just that I prefer it to an Alberg 30. The fact that someone did xxx voyage in a particular boat does not mean the boat is a good choice for the trip. There is a boat surveyor in Brisbane who circumnavigated in a 12 footer of some type - he did it, would you want to?

If you want to keep your Contest then you are going in the right direction of trying to get rid of as many uncertainties as you practically can. A trip to Bermuda can be a millpond where the most important thing is your fuel capacity or you can get a terrific blow.We went NYC to Bermuda on Niagara 35 in 4 1/2 days including one day of 191 miles, which is one mile short of 8 knot average which is more than hull speed - we had some favourable current and 25 to 35 knots (with gusts) broad reaching. Spent the day trying to slow down with no obvious success as you can see. So you just have to be well prepared. 

One hint, once you get things somewhat sorted out, go sailing on those boisterous September days when no one else is leaving the harbour (just make sure you can get in and out safely - some harbour mouths get really nasty). Practice reefing and unreefing a lot. Spend your money on the things you rely on routinely like strong sails, sail handling gear and the right nav things rather than the stuff you read about online or in the books like storm jibs and the like. We have a storm jib, a trysail, a parachute anchor and they have never been used, although I am going to make sure that the trysail is in the track and lashed on deck before we start heading from Mauritius to South Africa.

let us know if you have any other questions.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Yachtworld lists one Contessa 32 in Ontario for just over 39k. There are only 2 less expensive and both are in the UK. The rest are between 41k and 72k except for a 4 year old one at 165k

A good boat certainly but not an inexpensive one.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

tbh im not looking for a new boat because the reality is im not going to be able to sell my boat and if i did i cant think of any suitable boats because my budget is more like 15 or 20 (assuming its fully equipmented out) not 40 50 grand so instead of telling me how the boat is hasrd to control when it heels tell me how to steengthen the frame because it did seem pretty sturdy when i took it out in a small craft warning breeze and sluggish even so im guessing these flaws only present themselves in say a 35 knot wind, but since your the expert im sure you could give me some pointers ars to what to strengthen instead of just pushing me towards boats i cant aford. if i were to buy a boat in the 50 000 dollar range id go for a steel hull anyways and if the deep keel boats are so superior for durability why do u always hear of them losing there keels in the southern ocean (not that id ever plan to go there in anything short of a tallship) but back to reality and bermuda, i was wondering though if i were stuck in a full gale and i had no drogue or storm jib what would i do lay a hull with bare poles, run before the weather streaming warps. To be honest i wouldnt circumnavigate in a 12 foot boat but i have heard of contest 29s and 30s that have sailed from the netherlands to the us virgin islands so i assumed they were up to it but i suppose it may not be ideal due to the comments made but any boat can be made safer for example a catalina 27 circumnavigated and im fairly certain my boat is much stronger just from a raw fiberglass point of view even if the internal bracing was not as good but im sure if i add some stringers and a few compression posts i should be able to correct that. in terms of reefing i do feel rather happy that the boat has both slab reefing and a roller boom bith of which i have plenty of experience with, in terms of sailing in 25 to 35 knots while we dont have 35 knots often i have bbeen in 25 once or twice in lake huron crewing on my friends c and c 27 im going to post a lit of my ideas for a list of what i need to do for the boat it would help if you could tell me what my priorities are


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Priorities*



duchess of montrose said:


> tbh im not looking for a new boat because the reality is im not going to be able to sell my boat and if i did i cant think of any suitable boats because my budget is more like 15 or 20 (assuming its fully equipmented out) not 40 50 grand so instead of telling me how the boat is hasrd to control when it heels tell me how to steengthen the frame because it did seem pretty sturdy when i took it out in a small craft warning breeze and sluggish even so im guessing these flaws only present themselves in say a 35 knot wind, but since your the expert im sure you could give me some pointers ars to what to strengthen instead of just pushing me towards boats i cant aford. if i were to buy a boat in the 50 000 dollar range id go for a steel hull anyways and if the deep keel boats are so superior for durability why do u always hear of them losing there keels in the southern ocean (not that id ever plan to go there in anything short of a tallship) but back to reality and bermuda, i was wondering though if i were stuck in a full gale and i had no drogue or storm jib what would i do lay a hull with bare poles, run before the weather streaming warps. To be honest i wouldnt circumnavigate in a 12 foot boat but i have heard of contest 29s and 30s that have sailed from the netherlands to the us virgin islands so i assumed they were up to it but i suppose it may not be ideal due to the comments made but any boat can be made safer for example a catalina 27 circumnavigated and im fairly certain my boat is much stronger just from a raw fiberglass point of view even if the internal bracing was not as good but im sure if i add some stringers and a few compression posts i should be able to correct that. in terms of reefing i do feel rather happy that the boat has both slab reefing and a roller boom bith of which i have plenty of experience with, in terms of sailing in 25 to 35 knots while we dont have 35 knots often i have bbeen in 25 once or twice in lake huron crewing on my friends c and c 27 im going to post a lit of my ideas for a list of what i need to do for the boat it would help if you could tell me what my priorities are


I can't comment on reinforcing the hull since I don't know the boat. Ask around at the marina you are in - there should be someone who knows enough this to offer reasonable advice. Did you get a survey before purchase? If so, ask the surveyor, you paid for professional advice on such matters.

I doubt you will use the rollerboom. This was an older idea that died out for good reason - it did not work very well. As you rolled the boom, the boom got lower (because of the geometry of the sail) and the sail shape was lousy. Make sure your slab reefing is really sound and have a particular look for any source of chafe on the blocks or sail cringles.

Experiment a lot with heaving-to. Every boat does it differently. Some need both jib and main, some only a well-reefed main (if your main is in really good shape you might want to get a third reef point installed - often the second reef does not reduce sail enough). Running off is quite hard to do since it requires a lot of skill in really bad conditions and an iron constitution to keep it up. Moistessier was a proponent of this approach and the man is like a god (better than Eric Clapton - sorry different thread entirely ) both in what he accomplished and his capabilities. You can make a series drogue if you have access to a sewing machine. Haven't used one but had a friend who did twice on his way from the Galapagos to Chile this year - both times in 40 to 45 knots and pretty large seas. He loves it.

Interested to see your list. BtW, I don't consider myself an expert - but the more you sail the more you learn and the more you realize that you still need to learn.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

the marina operator actually told me the boat was as strong as a bull on steroids hence why i was so confused when i heard jeffs opinion but then my marina operator doesnt design boats he just repairs and works on them and also happened to cross the atlantic by boat when he moved to canada in his cutter i did not get a survey because i figured i paid 13 grand for the boat i might as well put the 1 grand into equipment rather than a survey and knowing there was no coring i figurede there was nothing that could go wrong or rot and obviously the marina operator would know if it had osmosis because he put on new antifouling at the beggining of the season i figured id use the rollerboom if i needed a very tiny peice of sail as in smaller than the smallest jinb i had so i could heave to and in that regard how mmuch would it cost me in raw materials to build a series drogue and my main is 1 year old so its pretty decent shape although it is kmuch smaller than the original sail was so that contributs to the sluggishness its about half the size of my 150 genoa and reef number 2 makes the sail about half the size of that of the 420s i sailed as a 7 year old so not sure if i should put any reef point higher than that or one in the middle because the jump between reef one and 2 is enormous in terms of blocks im replacing the traveler blocks and the cleat but the rest are all new as are the winches so heres my list btw 
storm jib
jacklines
bilge pump 
replace all clevis pins and have rigging inspected 
upgrade travveler blocks and cleats 
make storm hatches for doghouse windows
drogue
add compression post slash any needed strengthening
make colision mat out of an old yaga mat with grommets (heard it works wonders) 
make a plate to fit to all dorade vents incase of knockdown
buld water jug locker in old inboard engine room 
put spare ground tackle in box and store it in locker near center of boat to prevent it becoming a projectile 
solar panels
set up sheet to tiller steering and look for windvane in my price range 
add latches for all lockers and hatches
replace waterproof gaskets for all external hatches and lockers and bulkhead door 
test rudder bearings the keel is encapsulated so need to worry about bolts 
buy a barometer and an hf receiver any other ideas


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

oh and add cockpit scuppers and create a thick weatherboard that swings in front of the companionway to create a sturdier closing for heavy weather to prevent a breaking wave from destoying the weatherboards and floodiing the cabin


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Some reactions*



duchess of montrose said:


> the marina operator actually told me the boat was as strong as a bull on steroids hence why i was so confused when i heard jeffs opinion but then my marina operator doesnt design boats he just repairs and works on them and also happened to cross the atlantic by boat when he moved to canada in his cutter i did not get a survey because i figured i paid 13 grand for the boat i might as well put the 1 grand into equipment rather than a survey and knowing there was no coring i figurede there was nothing that could go wrong or rot and obviously the marina operator would know if it had osmosis because he put on new antifouling at the beggining of the season i figured id use the rollerboom if i needed a very tiny peice of sail as in smaller than the smallest jinb i had so i could heave to and in that regard how mmuch would it cost me in raw materials to build a series drogue and my main is 1 year old so its pretty decent shape although it is kmuch smaller than the original sail was so that contributs to the sluggishness its about half the size of my 150 genoa and reef number 2 makes the sail about half the size of that of the 420s i sailed as a 7 year old so not sure if i should put any reef point higher than that or one in the middle because the jump between reef one and 2 is enormous in terms of blocks im replacing the traveler blocks and the cleat but the rest are all new as are the winches so heres my list btw
> storm jib
> jacklines
> bilge pump
> ...


Specific comments

Storm jib - could not tell from your postings if your 150 is your only jib and whether you have a furler - I would put a working jib (perhaps a 90%) ahead of the storm jib; not aware of used sail dealer in Canada but Bacon Sails in Annapolis has a huge selection that you can check online (bought my storm jib from them and sold some sails as well); their condition judgements are quite fair tending to conservative; if they something is 'good' it really is
I assume that the dorade vents are screw-ins; you should be able to find plates (bronze/SS/Plastic) that screw into the ring; yours might be metric which could make it tougher
As well as water jug storage you are likely to have extra fuel storage as well - not wild about gas below decks but it may be necessary; going up/down the Hudson is often motoring since summer winds are light and when they exist they are up or down the valley so you are beating or running
What is your ground tackle? Don't need a whole lot for St Georges harbour in Bermuda or the Great Lakes where depths are not too bad 
experimenting with sheet to tiller only needs some shock cord, a bit of line and a couple of smallish blocks and is lots of fun; good luck finding the book
If you are singlehanding on the Lakes or down to NYC to go to Bermuda you will find a tillerpilot much more useful than a vane; the vane is really for long passages and you will not know about that until after the Bermuda trip so here is something you can delay until after Bermuda - unless you stumble on a really good deal which happens
Just give the rudder a good yank, up down and sideways and see if there is any play
As well as jacklines, check to see if there are strong points to attach your harness at the helm and just outside the companionway; I was in a race on Lake Ontario years ago where I man in a Shark was swept overboard in the middle of the night as he was coming on deck with his tether in hand; if conditions are really nasty you want to be attached while still in the cabin. You might be looking at at least two large padeyes with good backing. Each should be big enough to allow two tethers to attach.
 Saw a nice idea for doghouse windows protection on a boat in Oz with quite large windows. They had attached a rectangular piece of plexi across the entire window and attached at either end - not fitted to the window shape at all. Makes sense because you are only trying to absorb the weight of a breaking wave before it hits the actual windown. This approach was simple and cheap.
 sailrite.com sell a series drogue kit (along with everything else you could imagine in the marine sewing business); don't know if you could do it cheaper buying all the bits yourself
 Surveyors do more than check for blisters. Do you have insurance? Did they allow coverage without a survey? Usually the insurance companies insists on a survey. I changed insurance companies after 18 months in the US because the company I had would not provide offshore coverage. Had to get a new survey because the old one was more than year old.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

oh yes i do have a 90 percent jib in very good condition actually there all hanked on something i had to learn with this boat being used to crewing on modern boats i was like what is this contraption took about 2 minutes on the water to figure it out. i was just concerned about atlantic storms u know and heaving to might be overpowered with a 90 percent jib. oh i never knew there were screw ins i shoud check the store for that hmmm for fuel storage i may be able to build a fuel locker in the aft cockpit locker it already has a vent built right in so sounds like a good place and it could fit around 100 or 200 us galons in that space its pretty large just need to build some sort of encapsulation for ground taxckle i have 1000 feet of three eights chain and about 2000 feet nylon and i have a 45 pound plow a 35 pound bruce and a 25 pound of one of thiose type everyone has the folding ones that are virtually useless. im definitely planning on having fun with sheet to tiller im guessing shock cord means bungee cord i wowonder if the book is available online anywhere hmm... oh and the rudder check sounds really straightforward illl just fdo that before launch next year, and that actually sounds ingenious how were they fastened to the window so they wouldnt fall off, and would the breaking strength of marine ply really protect tempered glass. oh wow for the jacklines the padeyes ssound like a good idea can u give me a better idea of how that would work ive akways used a climbing harness is that sufficient for sailing for me its always been like a just in case thing that i bring but am i being foolish using this. oh do they i figured they just checke for rotten core and keel bolts and this boat has neither keel bolts nor coring but i may get a survey i dont have insurance i figured on a 13 000 dollar boat do i really need it and foir the drogue thanks, ill check them out, also for storm jibs could i use a jib from my dhingy because its small or would it be too lightweight pf construction to do the job


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

1000 feet of 3/8" chain? At over 1 1/2 lbs per foot that is over 1500 lbs.

1000 feet of nylon is pretty light.

100 to 200 US gallons in the stern? That is over 600 lbs for 100 gallons and 1200 lbs for 200 gallons - in the stern?

For sheet to tiller steering use surgical tubing. Shock cord doesn't last long in the sun.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

100 feet of chain sorry finger was overzealous and well theres no tank and that may wheigh a bit much but it look like a cavernous space so i just did a rough guess probably much less than 100 gallons but its big although aft isnt the greatest place for a tank u know since it makes the boat rather unbalanced and makes it likely to be pooped and oh surgical tubing i heard of that i watched the videos from a guy circumnavigating in a vega i just never knew why but that makes sense but yes for gas i suppose aft is a bad idea i just figured its ventilated but on second thought id like a bouyant stern....hmmmmmm maybe more like 10 gallons there and maybe move my water storage to below thge v berth and my gas storage to in the old engine compartment but make it ventilated somehow its really a no good solution answer what about sailing off the coast of nova scotia would i need as much gas then although im assuming id get a nasty breeze from the labrodor sea


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

i checked that site u showed me for drogues is this stuff good for making jacklines Webbing Polyester 2" Black Seat Belt 5500# or would this here be sufficient Webbing Tubular Polyester 1" 2700# ive heard 6000 as the figure for breaking strength is that right or is 3000 more like a realistic necessarry breaking strength i mean obviously more is better but more also means ore likely to trip me also where can i find a tether ive never actually bought one


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## tra (Dec 25, 2010)

I have a Contest 27'. I love it! It's my ninth and last sail boat. While others like the modern designs I prefer the old. I also don't watch Americas Cup racing anymore. Bring back the twelve meters and I will. I have no stringer rot and if my boat rounds up in heavy air I will reef or keep the main sheet in my hand so can dump some air. The deck does not flex and the mast does not compress the cabin top. 
I have owned everything from a Bock 18 to a Bristol 40. This is my favorite, hands down. It's not the fastest. If I wanted fast I would buy a powerboat. I suggest you go to San Fransisco Single Handed Sailing and download the free book on singlehanded sailing.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Good point on the Singlehanded sailing book by Andrew Evans. Here's the link:
Singlehanded Tips Book


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## FoolishMuse (Oct 12, 2006)

Thanks for pointing out my book. You can find video of my sheet to tiller steering system on Youtube:
FoolishMuseSelfSteering.wmv - YouTube


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## igorkiporouk (Mar 14, 2001)

I have the same boat - Contest 30 Mk1. I sail it for 5 years in Mediterraneo with my wife. Maybe it is not the best boat, but i like it. It is very old (1967) but strong. During the passage from Sardinia to Menorca we experiensed the gale force 8 that lasted 2 days. The boat hove to well with small piece of rolled genoa and fixed tiller at the angle about 60 degree to the waves. I use self made selfsteering windvane during the passages. So I think it is e good small boat that you can buy cheap. 
Good sailing.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

igorkiporouk how did you mke your windvane im curious, and i dont have a furler on mine would you suggest i get a storm jib or use the 90 percent working jib for heaving to also in your boat do you have a bige pump how is yours set up, since im planning on installing one on mine. ad i will definitely take a look at the book thaks for the tip


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## igorkiporouk (Mar 14, 2001)

My windvane is servopendulum, build it from scrap. It is not perfect, every year i modify it, but I would not go sailing without it. I don't have electrical autopilot.
I have only one set of sails, because last summer I shortened the mast, to bring the rig dimensions to original (it was somewhat bigger), and ordered main and genoa from Lee Sails. (Good quality and low price). Gennaker also Lee Sails.
The electrical bilge pump is small one, just to pump out the water that drips thru shaft seal (i keep it little bit loose for shaft lubrication) I have also manual diaphragm pump.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

if i were to build one like yours are there plans you used or a step by step thing i could follow, and how did you set up the manual bilge pump? where does it empty from the hull above the waterline im assuming. but yes if you could tll me how you made your windvane that would be awesome


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## tra (Dec 25, 2010)

I would like to see more pictures of igorkipurok's boat, inside and out. I like stealing other peoples ideas. lA legitimate criticism of the early Contest boat is the use of mahogany on exterior wood. If not protected by paint or varnish it will eventually delaminate and, or rot. Teak is much better, it doesn't rot, it doesn't rust, it just waits for better days. 'Kinda like fiberglass

My cabin hatch has problems on the sides and aft. For now I'm using butyl backed silver foil tape on the edges. Wal Mart. The former owner painted the hatch and comming dark brown but did not address the water damage caused by water intrusion and subsiquent discoloration of the hatch's underside (in the cabin) 

For me, these old Contests are like fine old cars or airplanes 'All clean and shiny and I'd be proud to take her anywhere, even to a Hincky Yacht gathering, since a member of that legendary family once owned mine.


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## igorkiporouk (Mar 14, 2001)

Perhaps i don't have some plan o instructions, just some rough sketches. I took something from Walt Murray (principal dimensions and crankshaft gear), some ideas from windpilot and others brands. I started to build it before i bought the boat and changed consruction several times adapting to materials that managed obtain cheaply o gratis. Some cuttings of SS pipes, pieces of plastic. I found on the beach plastik rudder from small sailing dinghy (or cat) and used it for pendulum oar blade (before that i broke two wooden blades). How i told before, i continue to make small improvements every season on the basis of experiense. If you want to build your own, i think the OS Walt free plan will be very useful. (look for it in internet,). It designed to use minimum tools and readily available materials. If you will like it, i still have some of its detailed drawings. 
My manual bilge pumpe came with the boat. It is mounted in cocpit, under the bunk (see pics). Handle pipe i keep in locker. Suction pipe go in the same bilge sump, where electrical pump with floating switch mounted. Output Thru-Hull fitting is above waterline


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## igorkiporouk (Mar 14, 2001)

You can see pictures hereÔîòî@Mail.Ru: igor kiporouk : Boat: ôîòî
About cabin hatch: I rebuild my, it was rotten. Used only some parts of the old frame.


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## tra (Dec 25, 2010)

Please contact me at [email protected] to respond to questions about yor mediteranean travels.


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## keithat (Nov 2, 2014)

how come no matter what you buy whether it be a pair of shoes there alway someone waiting to pee on your bonfire you were happy with your boat till now only you and you a loan can tell how your boat sails every one have different experiences and views has he ever stopped to think it might have been his boat that was wrong for him and he was pushing it to hard ? just sail into the sunset and enjoy


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

It is a 3 year old post, but at least most posters used punctuation.


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## Chainplate (Aug 18, 2014)

I am unfamiliar with the older Contest yachts, but I have owned a 1984 Contest 48 for 18 years and while I have sailed on a wide range of boats, from Swans to Hunters, there are few boats that I would be willing to take off-shore than mine. Not only was she built to take on the roughest conditions, but she does so without complaining and with a large degree of comfort for my wife and me. We have sailed her through a 987-millibar low without any damage or injuries and have covered tens of thousands of blue-water miles in above-average times. Her balance is remarkable and she heaves-to easily.

Whereas we don't get particularly good support from the Conyplex yard where she was built, I do get surprisingly quick responses from her designer, Dick Zaal. I don't know if Mr. Zaal designed the Contest 30 in question or not but, if he did, I would suggest that you contact him regarding some of the questions posed.

Fair winds and calm seas.


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## Longkeel32 (Jul 22, 2015)

Jeff_H said:


> You have the absolute wrong boat if you would "like to be able to take a 120 foot breaking wave broadside and survive". My family owned a Contest of the same era as your boat. While Contests were beautifully finished inside, from a build quality standpoint and mopre specifically from a structural viewpoint, they were very poorly engineered and constructed. While some of the built in defects may have been corrected by prior owners, and some of the could be corrected with a massive rebuilding effort, there is no work around for the poor handling characteristics of these boats.
> 
> And while this is true of many boats of this era, structurally, the internal framing of the Contests consisted of softwood framing poorly glassed into the hull. These elements included ncluded the tranverse frames which transfered the keel loads out to the hull.
> 
> ...


I"m just wondering Jeff, What boat do you own?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Longkeel32 said:


> I"m just wondering Jeff, What boat do you own?


I am curious as to why you are asking this question, but I currently own a Farr 11.6, (Farr design 72 rather than the later 11.6), which is a moderately high performance, offshore capable, cruiser. I have owned 16 boats over my sailing life from a wooden 1939 Stadel Cutter and a lapstrake 1949 Folkboat, some CCA era and IOR era racer/cruisers and a broad range of dinghies, race boats, racer-cruisers, and simple cruisers.

In reading my comments on the Contests above, I am a little concerned that they do not clearly tell the whole story. My comments should be seen as applying to the early models. At some point in the 1980's, Contest seemed to come up dramatically in their overall design and build quality and those boats have an excellent reputation. I have little or no experience with these later boats.

Jeff


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## Longkeel32 (Jul 22, 2015)

Thanks for your replay Jeff,
All very nice boats! I'm curious as to what you think about some of the better IOR designs. ie, the Contessa 32, the She 31, or the Sea Cracker/Tufglass 33, and the numbers associate with these boats?

~ Curtis


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Personally, I am not a big fan of the rigs and hull forms that are generally associated with IOR era boats. The rigs had tiny mainsails, and relied on very large headsails in light to moderate breezes which were had to tack and hard to depower. Given that IOR boats tend to be quite tender, that also means these sail plans were quickly overpowered and so required that the boats be reefed earlier than I would consider ideal for a cruising boat, and ultimately require more sail changes and a larger sail inventory than I would consider ideal. 

My specific concerns with IOR hull forms changes with each design period of the IOR but derive from the same problem. The IOR tried to predict the performance of a boat based on a limited number of measurements taken in very prescribed ways at very narrowly defined points on the boat. That caused designers to wildly distort the shape of the hull to beat the rule, in ways that made these boats much harder to handle, way less seaworthy, less stable and more significantly, have less predictable stability, uncomfortable in a seaway, and slower than they should be. As a cruiser, these boats also tend to have less carrying capacity relative to their displacement and are less tolerant of the kinds of weight distribution associated with cruising gear. They tend to track poorly and generally make a far less than ideal cruising platform, and are pretty much obsolete for racing. Structurally this was not particularly a great period in yacht construction, as the boats were getting lighter, but designers did not have the tools to properly engineer these boats to produce durable boats, and building techniques were still evolving in not all that great ways. 

Before someone objects, I know that people have done amazing things with old IOR boats, but to me that is more about the skill of those people who did those things and perhaps their luck as sailors, rather than any inherent virtues that old IOR boats may have. 

As far as the specific boats that you mention, the Contessa 32 design was begun as a very late RORC boat just at the very beginning of the transition to the IOR. The two rules were very similar but the Contessa 32 has some of the residual virtues of the late RORC boats (vs. IOR) but also some of the liabilities as well. The Contessa 32's earned a reputation as being better boats than I would suggest that they are due to their glowing comparison as a yardstick held up to the later of IOR boats of the Fastnet Disaster era IOR boats. In that comparison, there is no doubt that the Contessa 32's really did shine and represented a much more seaworthy choice than the boats they were compared to. But the reality is that they were being compared to one of the low points in yacht design history, and not to more traditional designs, or to more modern designs which have greatly benefited from knowledge available from the post- Fastnet research, and the better design tools, and materials that are available after that period. 

As compared to more modern post Fastnet performance cruisers, the Contessa 32's tend to be tender,pitch badly in a chop, are not very good light air boats, are harder to sail in a stiff breeze, and do not offer a lot of accommodations or performance for their length. That said, they do sail well on most points of sail meaning that they have no extreme flaws. 

The She 31 was a pure RORC boat rather than being an IOR boat at all. In that regard, it exhibits the worst excesses of the late RORC, short waterline length, pinched ends, fullness in the bow above the waterline, excessively narrow beam and tiny mainsails. To me, boats like these make attractive daysailors, but are way less than ideal for almost any other use I can think of. 

I really do not know anything about the Sea Cracker/Tufglass 33. 

Jeff


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## Longkeel32 (Jul 22, 2015)

Thanks Jeff,

I am sailing a Rhodes Chesapeake 32. Narrow beam, pinched in ends, but not a fuller bow above the water line. Full keel modified forefoot. I have had the boat, which is beautiful and a good sailor, for years, but painfully slow. I am looking to jump ship to a more modern, faster, roomier/beamier design, but still comfortable and seakindly in a seaway. Preferably with a draft less than 5'. I am planning a trip through the Antiles and down to S.A. Possibly down the east coast of S.A. as well. Mostly "coastal cruising" as I would call it. No crossings, no real long passages.

I was looking at the Contest 31 because I have heard good things about their sea keeping ability, but your comments have caused me to reconsider. I originally asked you what you were sailing to make sure you weren't someone full of book knowledge sailing a Hunter  I am not big on the more modern hull designs. I like a bigger fin keel and a skeg hung rudder if I can't have a full keel boat. Would you have suggestions to this kind of cruiser?

Thanks ~ Curtis


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I know the Chesapeake 32 very well. Phil Rhodes and George Walton (from here in Annapolis) at their best, built very nicely in Denmark or Sweden. I worked for Charlie Wittholz and he worked on the drawings for that boat when he was at Rhodes. The Chesapeake was also very close relative to the Pearson Vanguard that I grew up with, but the Chesapeake was more cramped but much better built and finished. 

Both were these Rhodes were CCA era boats, and at least by the terminology of their day, neither were full keels, frankly having less keel area (relative to their length) than many fin keel boats of their day, but that is another story.

I would also disagree that these boats had pinched sterns. These boats had pretty powerful sections for their day, and did not have pinched sterns. They had long overhangs, but compared to the RORC derived designs they had a straighter run, more level counter, and fuller buttock sections. 

As to other options, I would suggest something like a Tartan 30, or perhaps that golden oldie, the Tripp Galaxy 32. Inthe general design type that appeals to you, might look at some of the McCurdy and Rhodes designs like the Seafarer 34. Although I am not a big fan of the IOR era boats, Holman and Pye did some very nice designs during that era such as their Pretorien and Gadiatuer. There are some rare designs like the Mull Chico that would work well for you. In some ways, Raymond Richard's mid-70's designs, such as the Cheoy Lee Offshore 32 would be almost ideal for you if you could find one with a conventional interior layout, which has had its teak decks removed and finished in fiberglass, and the iron tanks replaced. Some other options might include boats like the Ericson Independence 31, Pearson 323, or perhaps at Tartan 34, or one of the late production Morgan 34's with the skeg hung rudder. 

Jeff


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## Longkeel32 (Jul 22, 2015)

Hey Jeff!

Well I just wrote a long email back to you, and my session timed out and I lost it! So I'm gonna keep this one short... sort of.

First of all, Super thanks for all the recommendations, I greatly appreciate them, and don't expect you to answer all these Qs either, you've given me plenty of your time already

The boats I liked the most and knew about some of them quite a bit were the Choy Lee 32, the Gladiateur which I didn't know of but really liked! It's a bit deep for the islands, and the Chesapeake where I will be sailing it during the outfit, but I am going to strongly consider it anyway. I was familiar with the Wauquiez Centurion 31 however.

* The boat I liked the most, and didn't know about, was the Ericson Independence. My Q is, can this boat be safely/practically out fitted with a tiller? A tiller is a very strong consideration for me. I am a highly skilled woodworker and have worked on many boats, so I'm capable of the work. Have you seen one with a tiller? Do you think it's a possibility? 

* The other boat I am thinking about, and would like to ask your opinion of, is the NIcholson 31. Obviously a very well thought of boat. I'm assuming faster than the Chesapeake as it's sail area is considerably larger, and the boat is beamier. It does have a longer keel however. What do you think of the ballast to Disp. ratio of this design. About 36%. What do you think of this era/style of boat design in general?

I am very picky, but won't go into the explanations about why I didn't consider some of the others. I should probably just build my own boat. I like wide side decks, a bridge deck is imperative! I like the nav station to face forward or aft, not a beam, and I like the galley to be well arranged with a solid stand and a place to clip in. All these boats share these qualities, and I will be looking for them specifically in my search for my next boat.

Thanks again for your time Jeff,

Best ~ Curtis


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## Longkeel32 (Jul 22, 2015)

Oh I forgot about the Seafarer 34. The other of my faves. Beautiful boats!! I was very familiar with the 31-1 and 31-2. The Tripp and Rhodes designs. What do you think about those?

~ Curtis


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## Longkeel32 (Jul 22, 2015)

Hey Jeff,

I did find a E 31 with a tiller, and was able to get a good look at it, so no worries on that ?.

I am still curious as to what you think about the Nic 31 however.

Thanks again,

~ C


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The Nicholson 31 is a serious "and I am not joking" offshore cruising boat. They are reportedly great boats for that purpose. But that comes with a lot of compromises. They have absurdly heavy displacement for their length, and a absurdly small sail area for their displacement. this means that they will not be great light air boats. While larger headsails can help with light air, using large headsails means making more sail changes, and are not as easy handling as a boat that starts with a larger sail plan, more stability relative to drag, and a more easily driven hull. While they should be much better sea boats than the Chesapeake, in practice they would not be all that much faster. 

If your primary use is distance cruising, then the Nicholson 31 is a slow but a very good option. But if your goal is coastal cruising with eventual offshore passages mixed in, then you might want a boat with better performance across a broader range of conditions. Bill Tripp Jr. (vs his son, Bill Tripp III) was a very talented designer and designed some of the best and most progressive designs of the CCA era. His Galaxy 32 was decades ahead of its time, and remains one of the best designs that came out of that era. But Tripp was an experimenter and did a broad range of projects, so while he produced some really wonderful designs, he also produced some pretty crumby designs, that were not all that well engineered or constructed, like the series he did for Columbia. 

Phil Rhodes was one of the greats of the old school. He certainly was one the preeminent designers in the years before fiberglass and did some nice early glass boats as well. I have always been disappointed that some of his better cruising designs (rather than the CCA era racer cruisers like the Vanguard and Chesapeake never made it into production.) Phillip Rhodes son was responsible for some of the later glass boat designs of the firm, and ultimately became a partner in McCurdy and Rhodes. McCurdy and Rhodes was a bit like Tripp. They produced some very high quality designs, and some not so great designs, and/or designs which perhaps were compromised in design or build quality at the request of the company building their boats. 

That was not all that atypical for that era. Another example of that was Ray Hunt, who was a very creative and skilled designer, but the execution of his designs produced boats were often compromised to meet a certain market portion. 

Jeff


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## Longkeel32 (Jul 22, 2015)

Hey Jeff, Thanks for all the info! It's a pleasure to be able to be able to talk with someone who really knows sailing. I hung out with a guy named Greg Forbes for a few years in St. Augustine Fl. He taught me a lot about setting up/what a good cruising boat was. He was in the "Queens Birthday Storm" in a Westsail 32. He now is sailing a Roberts 36 flush raised deck.. though I have no idea where he is. Did you know him?

The Galaxy has quiet the Bridge deck no? Very interesting boats for sure. I'll add them to my list of the contenders,.. which at this point is really only the Ericson 31. Not the cruising 31. I like the galley better, and the port holes rather than the lights in the first 23 models. I think it's a more well rounded boat, with the ability to do shorter passages, but be a great coastal cruiser. I still like the Choy Lee Offshore 32 too, but not as much. I think the two second choices for me would be the Seafarer 34... or the Nic 31, even though it's a slower boat, I know what they're made of, and may be able to get one for a good price that's actually here in the states. 

There's a few other boats that intrigued me some time ago, but one in particular was interesting because of the controversy surrounding it. The Carter 33. Every one was talking about the Bal/Disp ratio being low, coupled with the beamy flatter hull. Not great numbers either, and looks like what would be a poor righting ability. But they have some really nice qualities too, including a really well set up interior with lots of space/storage, huge side decks, and nice tight cockpit. Heard of them? I see now the problems with the IOR boats you have been mentioning... but they're always intriguing/appealing to the eye.

Thanks for all the help Jeff, I"ll keep you posted. There happens to be a E31 in Norfolk for a decent price. Needs some interior work, but after 25 years of woodworking, I think I can handle it if the price is right.


~ C


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## Longkeel32 (Jul 22, 2015)

Hey Jeff, I was looking at a Contest 31. I remembered seeing your post on them over the summer, and just went and found it. Not a lot of good things to say about them I see, and things that can really matter in a seaway as well! Can you tell me what make and year the one your Father owned was, and if you know what year Contest/Conyplex may have addressed these issues?

The soft wood for the transverse framing is a particularly disturbing issue!!! The Contest 31 has an encapsulated lead ballast with in integral keel. Are we talking about the same boat here?

You also said in your reply to the original post that they were a fin keel/spade hung rudder, but the 31 is a fin keel/skeg hung rudder. Again I'm wondering if we're talking about the same boat?

Thanks Jeff, hope you're doing well!

Curtis


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## Gerardkane (May 5, 2013)

Curtis,

I have a Contest 31, likely similar to what you are looking at. We have owned the boat for 20+ years and just did a pretty significant refresh. These are good, solid boats...I typically sail alone and I don't mind going out in some strong winds. She is mannerly and predictable with a skeg/rudder. Not the fastest girl in the world, but pretty and decent speed in anything but whispery winds.

No blisters on the hull which is pretty good for a boat built in '72. Interior room is not big and cockpit is not spacious, but sailing for 4 is fine.

Good luck,
Gerard

1972 Contest
"Citizen Kane"


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## Longkeel32 (Jul 22, 2015)

Hey Gerard!

Thanks for the reply, and the good report on a Contest 31. We did actually buy the boat, and for a song too! She is in reasonably good shape for her age, and neglect. Same yr as yours '72. Hull #15. Mostly cosmetic stuff.

We are currently on the hard with her doing a bit of a refit, but not much at this point, as her engine and tranny run well, and she is totally able to sail. We did a sea trial with her first too, in which she sailed beautifully in 10 to 12knts of wind, with a barnacle laden bottom to boot. Just rewiring the mast, and then set to step the mast in two weeks and splash the following.

It would be great to be able to speak with another Contest 31 owner, as there are plenty of things only pertinent to a Contest that I have Qs about. if you ever had the time and were so inclined, feel free to give me a call. 434-987-5997

Thanks again Gerard!

Best ~ Curtis
S/V Adelie


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## Blueprintsailor (Sep 6, 2021)

Longkeel32 said:


> Hey Gerard!
> 
> Thanks for the reply, and the good report on a Contest 31. We did actually buy the boat, and for a song too! She is in reasonably good shape for her age, and neglect. Same yr as yours '72. Hull #15. Mostly cosmetic stuff.
> 
> ...


Im not a Contest owner but when I had my Nicholson 31 in Europe I wintered he over in Medemblik at the Contest yard. They build excellent boats ( no longer the 31 I don't think ), but it is an excellent yard building great boats.
In reading remarks about offshore boats I have to affirm the impression that the Contessa 32 and Nic 31 are imho great boats. The Contessa is a smaller 32, while the Nic is considerably more spacious. The cockpit is as far aft as possible with a traditional transom and a transom hung rudder,.. in many ways just a larger folk boat. It is a heavy displacement hull that while not a racer chaser was able to average just over 5 knots boat speed over a 21 day transatlantic crossing Halifax to Kinsale Ireland. This included some motoring given that a heavy displacement vessel can carry extra fuel at no cost to boat speed.
It is a full keeled boat with cutaway forefoot that balances beautifully and works superbly on windvane. I've owned my " Blueprint " for 40 years now, having ordered/ purchased her from new. She was shipped to Maine when new and aside from my 6 seasons with her in Europe has lived in Maine where lobster fishing bouys are everywhere and liabilities to the average sailing vessel. I'm here to tell you that this vessel on electronic autopilot 90% of the time, driving straight over those pots and lines, has only caught one once and that was one partially submerged on a too short line. This keel with propeller in aperture is magic in these waters (and abroad).
Anyone interested in discussing further let me know and we can arrange a telephone call.
Cheers,
Bill R


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