# Offshore bluewater cruising - what sailboat would be best?



## chriscross80

So I'm in the process of trying to find the perfect bluewater offshore sailboat for me. A boat that will take me across oceans if I want to. I've been looking on Yachtworld alot of late.

Here are my needs&#8230;..the boat has to be pretty cheap (not more than $10,000), very seaworthy (I don't want to end up sinking in the middle of the ocean), lots of storage down below, able to use as a liveaboard, able to be sailed singlehanded, good headroom (I'm 6 foot 1).

I just read this book which had some good recommendations....

Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere: John Vigor: 9780939837328: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ECj%[email protected]@[email protected]@51ECj%2BqZSfL


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## copacabana

I think the BCC will be well out of your budget...


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## MarkofSeaLife

I wouldnt cross an ocean in any one of them (or two rafted up)

Not only wouldn't I but very few others would. I just dont see any in the cruising climes...

Smallest boat I have seen here this year is 33 feet. and thats the only one under 35.


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## RainDog

BCC does not really belong on this list. Not likely to find one for under $50k. If price was not a criteria, it for sure would be the boat I would choose.


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## zeehag

how many of the boats on your list have YOU sailed????
you have different criteria for comfort and pleasure than others, as does everyone. 
YOU need to sail the ones in which you figger you have interest then decide. also, learn some boat building and other irrelevant stuff so you know what you are looking at and how it works.


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## HaleyF

These all seem really tiny for bluewater boats. You should pick up a copy of 'The Voyagers Handbook'. It has some really good info about the types of boats that do crossings and the hardware involved. I'm familiar with about half of the boats on your list and they would need a lot of upgrades for offshore cruising. Great for coasts though, and I imagine you could find a couple of them for under 10k. Crossing oceans is a whole different ball game.

There's also a thread on here with a long list of bluewater boat suggestions but I can't find it now! Maybe someone remembers what it's called?


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## manatee

HaleyF said:


> These all seem really tiny for bluewater boats. You should pick up a copy of 'The Voyagers Handbook'. It has some really good info about the types of boats that do crossings and the hardware involved. I'm familiar with about half of the boats on your list and they would need a lot of upgrades for offshore cruising. Great for coasts though, and I imagine you could find a couple of them for under 10k. Crossing oceans is a whole different ball game.
> 
> There's also a thread on here with a long list of bluewater boat suggestions but I can't find it now! Maybe someone remembers what it's called?


 http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...fshore-cruising-boat-list-january-2008-a.html


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## okawbow

A properly modified Bristol 24 is comparable to the Pacific Seacraft Dana 24. (The ones with lead ballast) I like the B24 better than the CD 25D. Mine has a diesel, lead ballast, and 6' headroom. It's a tough little boat, and is stable and comfortable for it's size. They can be had for well under $10,000, even the ones that have been modified for offshore. I have mine on a trailer, and have trailered it as much as 1100 miles from home. I've done offshore over 100 miles at a time and averaged 5 knots under sail. 100 mile days are very doable. A little work and a less than $10,000 blue water boat is possible.


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## johnnyandjebus

To be upfront first thing;
I have never crossed an ocean in any boat.

With that said others have, in boats you are considering

Nick Jaffe | Bigoceans | Adventure, sailing & sustainable business

Home - Bika

Voyaging Under Sail, Cruising Lealea Home

The list can go on and on.

Not really anwsering your question I guess, just demonstrating that it can and is being done.

John

edit: I vote for the contessa 26 simply becuase I own one and she has a proven track record in regards to what you are considering.


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## vega1860

I suggest you subscribe to Cruising World, Sail, etc. and read everything by the Dashews. You will quickly learn that one simply cannot go cruising in anything less than a brand new $500K 40 footer or larger, as any fool already knows.

I wish someone had told me all this long ago and saved me the trouble of living aboard and cruising for the last 23 years in an Albin Vega 27. Had I only known, I would never have sailed (Three times) between Hawaii and the US Mainland and Alaska in it, cruised the San Juans, the US Pacific Coast and SE Alaska. Instead, I would still have a photo clipped from one of the above magazines taped to my refrigerator trying to save enough money to buy the afore mentioned 40 foot ketch. /s

Tania Aebi sailed around the world in a Contessa 26. Tony Skidmore, Nick and Jenny Coghlan and several others have circumnavigated in a Vega. Matt Rutherford sailed around the Americas, nonstop, through the Northwest passage and around Cape Horn in a Vega. Jarle Andhoy sailed from Norway to Tierra Del Fuego solo then, with crew, cruised Antarctica in a Vega.

$10K is a little light, even for a Vega, but it can be done if you ignore the marketing pressures of the advertising driven magazines and the advice of armchair sailors who "Wouldn't go cruising in anything less than (Fill in the blank)"


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## Rhapsody-NS27

I agree with what was said about the BCC. Size wise, it's not too different from my boat, a Nor'sea 27, but both would be priced well over $10k. What came to my mind is the Albin Vega. Like john posted, check out the site for SV Lealea. The owners, Chuck and Laura, also have videos on Youtube showing some travels between Hawaii and the West coast. From what I have read, the Vega is a popular boat that will serve you well with good care.

I'm not sure how much headroom is available on the boats you are considering but don't be surprised if it's not quite enough. Don't discount a boat because of it either. I'm 6'5" and I don't have standing headroom down below.

Funny, I mention Lealea crew and here one makes a post


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## blowinstink

RainDog said:


> BCC does not really belong on this list. Not likely to find one for under $50k. If price was not a criteria, it for sure would be the boat I would choose.


Similarly, Cape Dory 25D is a cult boat (and accordingly overpriced). You can certainly get a comparably equipped CD28 for the same price which would be a better platform.


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## blowinstink

HaleyF said:


> These all seem really tiny for bluewater boats. You should pick up a copy of 'The Voyagers Handbook'. .


Agree Voyager's Handbook is a great book. Would point out that Beth describes 3 cruisers in that book and the smaller one "S/V Simplicity" is a "30' sloop" along the lines of the boats on your list.


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## blowinstink

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I wouldnt cross an ocean in any one of them (or two rafted up)
> 
> Not only wouldn't I but very few others would. I just dont see any in the cruising climes...
> 
> Smallest boat I have seen here this year is 33 feet. and thats the only one under 35.


Mark -
Most of us know you're opinion on creature comforts and more modern designs. That's cool (if I could afford the boat of my dreams -- or was committed to a multi year cruise -- I might go a little more modern in design too). What doesn't come through in your comment is that you aren't (I don't think) disputing the seaworthiness of the boats the OP lists. I think most of them are (and have been proven) capable of ocean crossings. Might be nice to clarify that for a newbie who is just trying to figure it out and doesn't have the 100K budget for a 3 yr circumnav like you did . . .. Anyway, don't wanna put words in your mouth but that was what popped out when I read your comment.
-Matt


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## SVAuspicious

Suggest reading John Neal's thoughts and scale them to your needs.

If your budget is limited I am in the "go small go now" school. Check out SailFar.net


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## tomquinn

Check out atomvoyages.com if you haven't already. He makes a strong case for the Pearson Triton. I think you could argue in favor of many of the boats on your list. Also, I wanted to commend you on keeping it small. Nothing against bigger vessels, but I think there is often too much emphasis on the size of the boat when people start talking bluewater. Best of luck in your search.


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## jameswilson29

I voted for the Cal 20, hoping that you will buy it for your blue water travels, then report back to us on your epic voyage with photos and video!


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## JonEisberg

jameswilson29 said:


> I voted for the Cal 20, hoping that you will buy it for your blue water travels, then report back to us on your epic voyage with photos and video!


How on earth a Cal 20 makes the list of boats whose requirements are "good headroom" and "plenty of storage space below" is completely lost on me 

I'm afraid I'd have to vote for 'None of the Above'...

IMHO, barring the sort of exceptional 'find' like that couple cited from LATITUDE 38, the likelihood of shoving off with a "bluewater, liveaboard cruiser" for under $10K are slim, to none... Not if you want reliable diesel auxiliary power, at any rate...

I know, there are people who have done it... But the list of _RECOMMENDED_ boats in which to do so seems pitifully small, to nonexistent, at least to me...

Mark is right, the pecentage of people cruising the world today in such boats is miniscule, indeed... Pretty much whenever I get 'out there' with my 30-footer, I am invariably the smallest boat in the fleet, and usually by a considerable margin...


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## LinekinBayCD

Put the small Pacific Seacraft boats on the list: Flicka and Danna. I think they are about 22 and 26 respectively. Pacific Seacraft may have had a third under 30 model.


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## Coquina

All of the boats mentioned are basically sound and seaworthy boats, or at least they were at one time. Current condition may vary. How the %%%% a Cal 20 got in there I don't know though. While they have crossed oceans, they are quite cramped and it is kind of a stunt more than a cruise to take them offshore. We used to have one and I wouldn't want to be cooped up in that cabin for long. I voted for the Alberg 30 because it is the biggest on the list. 
See the economics of world cruising thread - A couple got a Columbia 34 (or Cal 34??) for $2K with a dead engine, put a runninng Atomic 4 in it, got used sails for $100 each, and took off for the South Pacific with $400 to their names! So..........it can be done for cheap, depending on your tolerance for work, discomfort, and risk.

At least one Cal 25 has been around the world several times and they are fairly cheap. YMMV on what you think of outboards. Cheap to replace when they go bad for sure, but charging is minimal and going into a choppy sea with one is torture.


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## kwaltersmi

I love reading about people tackling big dreams with small boats and even smaller budgets. There's always a ton of people who claim they wouldn't do it and that you shouldn't do it, but the stories from those that do are usually epic.

You might consider adding the Southern Cross 28 to your list too. They've been around the world (Donna Lange) and are sometimes available close to your budget. If you add the SC28, my personal list of favorite budget bluewater capable boats is very similar to your list.

If you haven't already, check out some of Webb Chiles' musings and adventures if you're interested in budget bluewater cruising. Amazingly, I think Webb is planning a 6th circumnavigation on another very modest boat.


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## JonEisberg

LinekinBayCD said:


> Put the small Pacific Seacraftvboats on the list: Flicka and Danna. I think they are about 22 and 26 respectively. Pacific Seacraft may have had a third under 30 model.


Quality boats, for sure - PSC also made the 27' Orion, if memory serves...

Good luck finding one ready to go for under $10K...


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## Rhapsody-NS27

LinekinBayCD said:


> Put the small Pacific Seacraftvboats on the list: Flicka and Danna. I think they are about 22 and 26 respectively. Pacific Seacraft may have had a third under 30 model.


The Flicka looks like a good boat too. I would consider it too but most are much more than $10k. There just happens to be a couple listed for sale just under $10k on the Flicka Group website: Flickas For Sale


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## kwaltersmi

LinekinBayCD said:


> Put the small Pacific Seacraftvboats on the list: Flicka and Danna. I think they are about 22 and 26 respectively. Pacific Seacraft may have had a third under 30 model.


Those PCS's would be the Flicka 20, Dana 24, PSC 25, and Orion 27, but none are likely available for less than $10k. Your best bet in that price range for a PSC would be the 25.


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## steve77

Second the recommendation to check out Atom Voyages - Home. James Baldwin has sailed his Pearson Triton around the world twice. Note that he extensively modified his boat to get it ready for a circumnavigation. I have a Triton (happens to be for sale) and while you can get a nice one for around $10K it will cost you some more (unless you DIY) to get it ready to cross an ocean.

Baldwin also has a nice article about small blue-water boats on his website:

Atom Voyages - Good Old Boats List


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## copacabana

People sometimes forget that in the 60's and 70's cruising boats were in the range of 27 to 32 feet on average. They were equipped with very little except a compass, sextant, timepiece, lead line and perhaps a radio direction finder or Loran. They managed to get by without watermakers, gensets, ice machines, freezers or fridges, air conditioning and so many other things considered "essential" today. Obviously, this kind of cruising is not for everyone and few today would take off on a cruise on a boat like this. This doesn't alter the fact, however, that there is nothing "impossible" or "dangerous" about taking a sound, small boat on a long cruise. I think with 10K you can probably find, with a little luck, a decent platform to start with. You'd then want to sink some cash into some essential items like new through hulls, rigging, sails, engine maintenance, wind vane (or good AP) spares and at least a GPS, VHF and depth sounder. So let's say another 10K to upgrade the boat to make it seaworthy. There is a lot to be said for a small, simple boat if you can live without luxury. Certainly you'll be spending a lot less time fixing things, chasing down spare parts and maintaining stuff. Heck, with the money you save on the boat you can afford to arrive in port and check into a nice hotel for a few nights to relax and rest from your passage.


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## Cruiser2B

There are a few boats on your list that are well proven offshore cruisers but almost all will need some improvement to be considered "bluewater"

I picked Alberg 30, Mainly because it is the boat I have chosen as well.

Many Albergs have proven offshore capable, with appropriate upgrades and modifications.

Alberg 30- check out sailingsalsa.com, I believe in his blog he says all said and done he spent 40K, getting his Alberg ready for a circumnavigation

Also, Pearson Trition, Albin Vega 27, Bristol 27 and list goes on..... are all good boats that can be had for 10k or less with proven offshore capability but prolly not ready for offshore duty until checked, upgraded and refitted.

I bought my A30 for $4800, have put another $3000 in standing and running rigging mods. About to put boat on side of house for a 2yr refit when I plan to completely refit all aspects of boat, this will include many upgrades...tankage being one. So far I have probably $8000 and a very nice base for building an offshore cruising boat for 2. I figure to have about another 5-7k when done. I could probably buy a bigger boat for 20k but it wont be done the way I want with the parts I want in the boat I want so I have chosen to buy a boat at a reasonable cost and upgrade as I go.

These sites below have lots of great information;

Atom Voyages - Home
Bristol27.com
Voyaging Under Sail, Cruising Lealea Home
sailFar.net
www.johnvigor.com
Alberg 30 sailboat project

One last note, check out

thesimplesailor.com

this guy goes all over the north atlantic(80N) in a 21ft junk rig boat. On his site he detailed about the modifications to make his boat bluewater capable. He has recently upgraded to a 24ft boat(big).... search youtube for "mingming" for video of 21ft boat at sea and the building of MingMing 2(24ft). Very robust and simple.

For me this trick is going to keep all systems as simple and basic as possible.

Good Luck in your search


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## SVAuspicious

The OP mentions concerns about "sinking in the middle of the ocean" but some people use those terms very broadly. While I don't consider the hop from FL to Bahamas or SD to the Channel Islands to be bluewater, some people do. What is in the mind of the OP for using the boat?


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## jameswilson29

SVAuspicious said:


> ...What is in the mind of the OP..?


That's what I wonder every time I read one of these threads...


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## Donna_F

There is no "perfect" boat. There is only the boat that better suits *your* requirements.


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## jameswilson29

No offense to the OP, but if you have to ask this kind of question, you should probably not be undertaking this sort of trip in the near future.

Otherwise, Welcome to Sailnet!

I see you have 28 posts, started 17 threads, six of which included a survey...lots of activity for a newbie! At least you seem to know how to use the forum.


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## TJC45

okawbow said:


> A properly modified Bristol 24 is comparable to the Pacific Seacraft Dana 24. (The ones with lead ballast) I like the B24 better than the CD 25D. Mine has a diesel, lead ballast, and 6' headroom. It's a tough little boat, and is stable and comfortable for it's size. They can be had for well under $10,000, even the ones that have been modified for offshore. I have mine on a trailer, and have trailered it as much as 1100 miles from home. I've done offshore over 100 miles at a time and averaged 5 knots under sail. 100 mile days are very doable. A little work and a less than $10,000 blue water boat is possible.


Glad you said properly modified. I like the Bristol 24 and agree, modified, IOW, beefed up rigging, it could do bluewater. A modified Bristol 24 from our marina did the run to Bermuda a while back. Uneventful. Unfortunately, the owner let the boat run down at that point. He finally sold it a year or so ago to guy who uses it as a power boat. I want to slap'em but!!!!!!

That said, there is a world of difference between the two boats. The 1500 pound difference in displacement tell you the Bristol wasn't made for the same purpose as the Dana. Still, the bristol, a great boat!


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## blowinstink

TJC45 said:


> Glad you said properly modified. I like the Bristol 24 and agree, modified, IOW, beefed up rigging, it could do bluewater. A Bristol 24 did the run to Bermuda a while back. uneventful. Unfortunately, the owner let the boat run down at that point. he finally sold it a year or so ago to guy who uses it as a power boat. I want to slap'em but!!!!!!
> 
> That said, there is a world of difference between the two boats. The 1500 pound difference in displacement tell you the Bristol wasn't made for the same purpose as the Dana. Still, the bristol, a great boat!


Dana LWL 21.5'
B24 LWL 18.2'

Pretty significant as well IMO.


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## TJC45

Here is a book "Kawabunga's South Seas Adventure" Google it

It's the story of a California couple who outfit and sail a Flicka from California to Hawaii, and beyond to Bora Bora Tahiti and other South Pacific locations. The boat is up to it! As were the crew!

Obviously, if you can afford a fifty footer that's how you roll. If not, this book shows you don't need one to be a seaworthy blue water boat. 

That said, finding a Flicka under 10k might be a challenge. Regardless, it is money well spent.


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## killarney_sailor

chriscross80 said:


> I seen a 40 foot sailboat for $2,800 on Craigslist from the Bay Area but who knows if it's seaworthy once out on the ocean...
> 
> 1958 Sailboat 40' all sails...Sleek and Fast!!


Not be unkind, but if you don't know enough about 50 year old wooden boats selling for $2800 to know that don't want one - you need to do a lot more homework.


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## Harborless

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I wouldnt cross an ocean in any one of them (or two rafted up)
> 
> Not only wouldn't I but very few others would. I just dont see any in the cruising climes...
> 
> Smallest boat I have seen here this year is 33 feet. and thats the only one under 35.


Not sure why not those are all good boats. I think these days people have grown predjudice about sze requirements for blue water boats. A quick look at our sailing forefathers shows us many examples of small boats without any nelectronics making circumnavigations single handed or with a crew of two.

Just a few examples are Cardinal Virtue, the sloop built in 1948 with a l.o .a. of 25'3" that made a single handed eastern circumnavigation in the 1960's.

Elsie the cutter built 1958 with loa of 39' that cicrumnavigated single handed going around new zealand.

Island Girl the cutter with an loa of 20'3" that single handed from l.a. to hawaii to alaska in 1963.

The Trekka built in 1955 with a loa of 20'8" that had no engine and was single handed around the world, twice.

I think any of those boats can take you the world over friend. What is going to be much more pirceless than which of the vessels you choice is seamanship. Dont skimp on that and never stop aspiring to become more proficient and self reliant.
navigation, piloting, sail trim, heavy weather tactics, provisioning, anchoring these are your keystones. -


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## Don L

I don't have a problem with anyone wanting to go off cruising in one of those small boats. But I don't really understand the point of people commenting on "in the old days all cruisers were like this" etc. because that just says it is old school thinking that has pretty much passed.

A cruising boat isn't as much a boat as a home (to me at least). It just never seems that people consider the Home part as strong as they should. Even the "dock condo" boats will get you anywhere you want to go and when they get there they will be a Home.

Will a small cruiser ever be a Home or just a floating tent that you camp in once you get somewhere?

Again if someone chooses to go the small boat it isn't any skin off my nose and matters nothing to me personally.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Harborless said:


> sailing forefathers shows us many examples of small boats . -


yes, but our forfathers sailed a long time ago.

Nowadays you wont get one of these boats through Panama Canal as they are too slow. The cost of the tug is more than the boats value.

So that leaves you in a 20 or 25 foot boat... lwl 19 foot someone posted doing Cape Horn and Cape of Good Hope. If you think those boats are seaworthy to do that then I question it.

I question them being able to do a tropical circumnavigation... quite simply they can't just due to Panama! So you are restricted to one ocean.

My advice is to know this stuff before you buy a Flika.

If people didn't, in the end, agree with me, then anchorages like this or Colon in Panama etc would have a smattering of the boats listed. But there are NONE; ZERO; ZILCH; NUMERO NUNNO; SBA; SFA and 3/5 of 5/8ths of F*** all.

If you don't believe me you can fly down, stay on my boat for 2 or 3 days (till u get sick of me) and we will tour the bays and you can SEE what people are sailing.

If they are not here its not because they have been vaporized up Santas butt. Its that they are not being cruised in the numbers you suggest.

Mark


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## killarney_sailor

Mark, we met a few boats in this size range (27 and 30 feet) that had done the Canal without incident. According to the Canal regs none of us have boats that are fast enough - 8 knots, you just say 'yes' when they ask, very much a wink-wink, nudge-nudge kind of thing. Not suggesting that there are many smaller boats doing a rtw, but they do exist.


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## blutoyz

jameswilson29 said:


> I voted for the Cal 20, hoping that you will buy it for your blue water travels, then report back to us on your epic voyage with photos and video!


I too voted the Cal 20...get lots of pics for us


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## MarkofSeaLife

killarney_sailor said:


> Mark, we met a few boats in this size range (27 and 30 feet) that had done the Canal without incident. According to the Canal regs none of us have boats that are fast enough - 8 knots,


The 8 knot rule is for the cheap rate. Thene there a lower limit between 5 knots and 8 where you pay douuble. Then theres an absolute cutt off at 4.5 knots where you have to be strapped to a tug.

Its the 5 knot barrier that a boat with an LWL of 20 ft will not have a hull speed to surpass.

Remember too, that since you did it and I did it theres been more tightening of the rules.



> The Canal Authority may deny transit if a handline vessel (i.e. a yacht) cannot maintain a minimum speed of 5 knots. However, a vessel may be towed through the Canal by another handline vessel if it can tow her at 5 or more knots, or make arrangements to be towed, at their own expense,


 From Noonsite.com


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## Harborless

Well I wont argue with the canal transit but that sounds perfectly reasonable- However you COULD go via NW pass or Magellan straits or even via the Horn. Just saying.

I think any of these boats can get you from A to B however the critical quality that has to be factored is Seamanship. Not GPS seamanship.


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## Rhys05

MarkofSeaLife said:


> The 8 knot rule is for the cheap rate. Thene there a lower limit between 5 knots and 8 where you pay douuble. Then theres an absolute cutt off at 4.5 knots where you have to be strapped to a tug.
> 
> Its the 5 knot barrier that a boat with an LWL of 20 ft will not have a hull speed to surpass.
> 
> Remember too, that since you did it and I did it theres been more tightening of the rules.
> 
> From Noonsite.com


According to my calculations a boat with a LWL of 14 feet has a hull speed of 5 knots. (Not that I disagree with most of your other points....I'm looking for a boat in the 32-42 ft range that is "fast" [read: modern] myself..)


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## TJC45

I've read that the Flicka can do better than 5 knots, not only under power, but under sail as well. 

That said, this thread isn't about circumnavigation, it's about blue water boats. Blue water is going from Wilmington NC to Bermuda. or sailing your butt 100 miles off the coast and back. Granted, to you circumnavigators out in the crowd here that's like puddle jumping, but ocean is ocean regardless of how much of it you sail across. 

Lastly, as for seeing only newer larger boats at the popular blue water cruising spots, that's because blue water cruising is a rich person's game. If you can afford the new 40 footer you buy the new 40 footer. Only wealthy people can afford to take a three to five year vacation on a large boat where the means of transportation is sucking your bank account every day.


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## Coquina

I know someone who sailed a Cal 20 from Annapolis to Scotland and a Cal 25 has been around the world more than once with a family of 4 aboard.


blutoyz said:


> I too voted the Cal 20...get lots of pics for us


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## Coquina

For a 20 foot boat, just hire a truck and a trailer. I assume - perhaps wrongly - you can drive the route along the canal.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> The 8 knot rule is for the cheap rate. Thene there a lower limit between 5 knots and 8 where you pay douuble. Then theres an absolute cutt off at 4.5 knots where you have to be strapped to a tug.
> 
> Its the 5 knot barrier that a boat with an LWL of 20 ft will not have a hull speed to surpass.
> 
> Remember too, that since you did it and I did it theres been more tightening of the rules.
> 
> From Noonsite.com


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## TJC45

For these small boats you don't need to go anywhere near the canal. many of the Flicka's I've seen posted for sale over the years come with a trailer. A road worthy double axle trailer. For those that don't, a trailer can be purchased for 2k or less. And, the Flicka is about the heaviest boat out of the bunch here. You could haul a much heavier Dana safely with a mid sized SUV. 

Wanna sail in more than one ocean and the canal has got ya worried? No problem! Pull your boat into any marina in Florida, put it on the trailer, and drive it across I-10 to the west coast. Or drive it to Baja, or someplace else in Mexico. Before your sailing buddies have even reached the canal you can be getting off loaded in the San Juans. From there you can sail all the way to New York City, the long way round! The gas for a mid sized SUV with enough grunt to pull a Flicka, something like a six cylinder Grand Cherokee, or mid sized pick up truck like a Ford Ranger, less than a $1000 coast to coast. And you get the added bonus of truck stop food!!! Does it get any better than that? 

Problem solved!!!


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## TJC45

Don0190 said:


> I don't have a problem with anyone wanting to go off cruising in one of those small boats. But I don't really understand the point of people commenting on "in the old days all cruisers were like this" etc. because that just says it is old school thinking that has pretty much passed.
> 
> A cruising boat isn't as much a boat as a home (to me at least). It just never seems that people consider the Home part as strong as they should. Even the "dock condo" boats will get you anywhere you want to go and when they get there they will be a Home.
> 
> Will a small cruiser ever be a Home or just a floating tent that you camp in once you get somewhere?
> 
> Again if someone chooses to go the small boat it isn't any skin off my nose and matters nothing to me personally.


Don I agree with you. Mostly. My bluewater experience is limited to two trips to Bermuda from Maryland. One as crew on a 42 foot boat, and one as skipper of my own 35 foot boat. Throw in a Delmarva circumnaviagation and some trips offshore down the coast. So, the boat not really getting used as a long term home. Two weeks max on the boat at one time. From that point of view i can see the boat getting smaller as time goes on.

However, land touring has taught me something. and that is - size doesn't matter. I spend weeks at a time touring this country behind the wheel of a large motorhome. I've also spend weeks at a time touring this country pedalling a bike. ( RV is with family, bike is solo touring) I will tell you, when on the bike the people in motorhomes and other large RVs think i'm crazy. They think it must suck to do what i'm doing. Comically, some try to give me money. But gotta tell ya, doesn't suck! it is invigorating, it's adventure, it's just plain fun! And, highly recommended!

So what i see here, to an extent is the same "people kinda looking down their noses" type attitude that i've been met with out on the road touring on my bike. If it's smaller, or if it's not as new it's automatically not as good. Not necessarily true.

Everyone has to find there own way of getting it done. No arguement that one isn't going to be as comfortable on a 20 foot boat as they are on a 40 foot boat. But. the truth is, that's what they signed up for. And, most of them wouldn't trade with you if you gave them the bigger boat. I cetainly wouldn't trade my bike for an RV. What and then have to buy gas? No way!


----------



## jorgenl

TJC45 said:


> Wanna sail in more than one ocean and the canal has got ya worried? No problem! Pull your boat into any marina in Florida, put it on the trailer, and drive it across I-10 to the west coast. Or drive it to Baja, or someplace else in Mexico.


Or hang a sharp left, keep drivin' thru Mexico, Central America, west coast of South America until you reach the Horn. Do a U-turn and right back up north again.

Problem Solved!!!

Or, buy a 40 footer and be done with it.


----------



## TJC45

jorgenl said:


> Or hang a sharp left, keep drivin' thru Mexico, Central America, west coast of South America until you reach the Horn. Do a U-turn and right back up north again.
> 
> Problem Solved!!!
> 
> Or, buy a 40 footer and be done with it.


My post is geared toward those who don't have $150k plus to drop on a boat. And, it's not posted to put anyones ideas down. It's just to show where there is a will there is a way. More than one way of achieving a goal. But thanks for the useful input!


----------



## killarney_sailor

TJC45 said:


> Lastly, as for seeing only newer larger boats at the popular blue water cruising spots, that's because blue water cruising is a rich person's game. If you can afford the new 40 footer you buy the new 40 footer. Only wealthy people can afford to take a three to five year vacation on a large boat where the means of transportation is sucking your bank account every day.


Damn, no one has ever called me a rich person before (retired teacher, wife is an IT person who was laid off during the financial crunch). I must have my political views all wrong. Thought I was just part of the unwashed masses, not the financial elite. Could not afford the new 40 footer so have the quality, 30 year old 45 footer.


----------



## SVAuspicious

TJC45 said:


> Blue water is going from Wilmington NC to Bermuda. or sailing your butt 100 miles off the coast and back. Granted, to you circumnavigators out in the crowd here that's like puddle jumping, but ocean is ocean regardless of how much of it you sail across.


Which is directly relevant to my question some posts ago - what does the owner mean by bluewater.

My own definition is sailing beyond the reasonable confidence in a departure weather forecast with no good intermediate bailouts. By my definition 100 miles out and back is NOT bluewater unless you are rowing. *grin* Southport, Beaufort, or Norfolk to Bermuda is barely bluewater.

That's why getting our vocabulary sorted early in a discussion is important. My definition is different from TJC45's. That doesn't make either of us wrong. It means we have to get our terms nailed down.


----------



## oceangirl

killarney_sailor said:


> Damn, no one has ever called me a rich person before (retired teacher, wife is an IT person who was laid off during the financial crunch).


Yes, you are rich congrats.

Make over $34k a year? That puts you in the top 1%. Maybe you don't feel rich, but you are.


----------



## Don L

TJC45 said:


> However, land touring has taught me something. and that is - size doesn't matter. I spend weeks at a time touring this country behind the wheel of a large motorhome. I've also spend weeks at a time touring this country pedalling a bike. (


I understand your point.

In this case I feel the better comparison is touring in a motorhome verse touring in 1965 VW Bettle.


----------



## Don L

MarkofSeaLife said:


> If they are not here its not because they have been vaporized up Santas butt.
> 
> Mark


Not that is has anything to do with boats, but that is great! When he farts does that become a wooden toy, or if he has held it in long enough a 20 footer?


----------



## TJC45

Couple things:

Killarney -hat's off to you. i work with people in managing their money. Not many retired teachers could afford to do what you are doing. Not without making some major life decisions. like selling the house etc. So again, good that you are the exception.

SVA- yeah, just what is blue water? Maybe a little bit of snobbery going on around here with that as well? WE could ask the Coast Guard who rescued the crew of the Bounty if they think Norfolk- Bermuda is barely blue water. Same with the National Guard crew that rescued the sailboaters during the Perfect Storm. Geez, they were only about 100 miles off the coast of New Jersey. Does that even count as ocean? Well it did for the National Guard crewman who was lost. But, maybe you have a point. Get everyone on the same page with definitions.


----------



## TJC45

Don0190 said:


> I understand your point.
> 
> In this case I feel the better comparison is touring in a motorhome verse touring in 1965 VW Bettle.


Or maybe this:

IBA - World's Toughest Motorcycle Riders

For those who want to see the country but don't have a lot of time to get it done!!!

The opposite of Island Time!


----------



## RainDog

TJC45 said:


> However, land touring has taught me something. and that is - size doesn't matter..... But. the truth is, that's what they signed up for. And, most of them wouldn't trade with you if you gave them the bigger


We live in our RV half the time (the boat the other half). We sold our 10 year old, 17' Casita to buy a brand new one 4 times the size (square feet). After six months of that we sold the new one and bought back the Casita.

Certainly most RVers think we are nuts, but we love this, hated the big one. I have much the same philosophy about boats, and for the same reason. Granted my boat is 34', which is huge compared to the ones discussed here, but I would not trade it for a 40' boat.


----------



## JonEisberg

Harborless said:


> Well I wont argue with the canal transit but that sounds perfectly reasonable- However you COULD go via NW pass or Magellan straits or even via the Horn. Just saying.


The inability to maintain the minimum speed through the 50 miles of the Panama Canal would have to rate as the stupidest reason in history to sail a small boat 10,000 extra miles instead through the NW Passage, or around Cape Horn


----------



## boatman61

This would do the trick... and leave you change for a furler and new genoa...http://www.towndock.net/classads/images/tatum_pearsontriton.jpg


----------



## CKniff

The mere fact that you have posted 10 boats listed in offshore manual tells me you are not prepared to even consider an offshore passage. Please tell me, have you ever been offshore? What is the longest passage you have skippered?

Is your budegt really $10,000? What are you planning for an annual operationg budget? Are you prepared to spend another $10,000-$15,000 to refit your boat before you go offshore (regradless of what boat you finally purchase)?

I would suggest you read several books about offshore sailing and preparations for ocean passages. Please put the romanticism aside and put on a hat of practicallity!

Good luck!


----------



## HaleyF

^ I can't believe it took 10 pages for someone to say this haha.


----------



## Donna_F

HaleyF said:


> ^ I can't believe it took 10 pages for someone to say this haha.


You must have missed one of his other multiple polls where someone said just that.


----------



## okawbow

You do need to get the boat first, before you sail it offshore.........Give him a break.


----------



## bljones

CKniff said:


> I would suggest you read several books about offshore sailing and preparations for ocean passages. Please put the romanticism aside and put on a hat of practicallity!


If it wasn't for romanticism, none of us would be here. We'd all be riding public transit to jobs with benefits in a box filled with dozens of others just like us, and waiting for retirement.

Romanticism is what makes sailors ...better.

What books should he read? The Pardy's advocate exactly what the OP is doing- small boat, small budget- in their books.

It sounds like you have some experience, so instead of hacking at him, offer solutions.


----------



## chall03

okawbow said:


> You do need to get the boat first, before you sail it offshore.........Give him a break.


+1.

What's the OP crime here??

He's read a book on offshore boats, expressed a desire to do some offshore sailing and asked some questions on a sailing forum??

Clearly he is not an experienced offshore sailor folks, if he was he probably wouldn't need to poll the denizens of Sailnet.

Let him dream and romatisize, he will figure the practical out.


----------



## TJC45

chall03 said:


> +1.
> 
> What's the OP crime here??
> 
> He's read a book on offshore boats, expressed a desire to do some offshore sailing and asked some questions on a sailing forum??
> 
> Clearly he is not an experienced offshore sailor folks, if he was he probably wouldn't need to poll the denizens of Sailnet.
> 
> Let him dream and romatisize, he will figure the practical out.


The value of this forum is to help people who are inexperienced not hang them on a cross for it.

We all had to start someplace. And, if a cheap boat is all the wallet can handle, then I say a cheap boat is better than no boat. And, of course, making that boat as safe as possible is assumed.


----------



## Coquina

The ocean 1 mile outside Cape May inlet can be as bad - or worse - than anyplace in the Atlantic if you have really bad luck. I sailed a Sunfish 10 miles offshore from Bermuda once (yes - it was bad idea) and it was looking kinda blue out there 
Also being in a bad storm a couple hundred miles from Norfolk was not like "this would be 20 times worse 2000 miles from Norfolk*" 

* NOT in the Sunfish thank God!



TJC45 said:


> Couple things:
> 
> Killarney -hat's off to you. i work with people in managing their money. Not many retired teachers could afford to do what you are doing. Not without making some major life decisions. like selling the house etc. So again, good that you are the exception.
> 
> SVA- yeah, just what is blue water? Maybe a little bit of snobbery going on around here with that as well? WE could ask the Coast Guard who rescued the crew of the Bounty if they think Norfolk- Bermuda is barely blue water. Same with the National Guard crew that rescued the sailboaters during the Perfect Storm. Geez, they were only about 100 miles off the coast of New Jersey. Does that even count as ocean? Well it did for the National Guard crewman who was lost. But, maybe you have a point. Get everyone on the same page with definitions.


----------



## Coquina

Another thing - If YOU want a big boat with all the toys, have at it. I like my SSB and cooking on gas too 

But..if you read all the old time voyaging books most of them used boats that most of you wouldn't sail across the Bay. There is a place for low budget adventures too.


----------



## CKniff

I would never quell enthusiasm and passion; but it should be interspearsed with a dose of realism. Safe and successful offshore sailing requires a blend of each and I merely wish to advise our friend there needs to be a plan/ strategy in place before going offshore. 

Poor planning is quickest way to end a dream. To that I say, read as much as you can, learn as much as you can and don't try to do it on the cheap. The ocean will find and exploit every weakness in your vessel.

"Nuf said.......comment away!


----------



## smurphny

I'm surprised the Alberg 37 isn't mentioned in these lists along with the 30 and the 35. The 37 was designed for offshore use. The 30 and 35 were designed for "coastal cruising," although both have long records of circumnavigations. The 37 is a great boat and there are still quite a few of them around. If I were to renovate another GOB, it would probably be a 37.


----------



## Coquina

The best stories came from the people who DID do it on the cheap and had no idea what the hell they were getting into.

Or they were never heard from again.



CKniff said:


> I would never quell enthusiasm and passion; but it should be interspearsed with a dose of realism. Safe and successful offshore sailing requires a blend of each and I merely wish to advise our friend there needs to be a plan/ strategy in place before going offshore.
> 
> Poor planning is quickest way to end a dream. To that I say, read as much as you can, learn as much as you can and don't try to do it on the cheap. The ocean will find and exploit every weakness in your vessel.
> 
> "Nuf said.......comment away!


----------



## blowinstink

CKniff said:


> I would never quell enthusiasm and passion; but it should be interspearsed with a dose of realism. Safe and successful offshore sailing requires a blend of each and I merely wish to advise our friend there needs to be a plan/ strategy in place before going offshore.
> 
> Poor planning is quickest way to end a dream. To that I say, read as much as you can, learn as much as you can and don't try to do it on the cheap. The ocean will find and exploit every weakness in your vessel.
> 
> "Nuf said.......comment away!


He didn't say he is leaving tomorrow - he said what do you think of these boats. WTF? 3 SN posts ever and you wasted at least 2 of them them crapping on a guy over a question he didn't ask or a statement he didn't make. WTH should he tell you what his longest ocean passage is in order for you to comment on the boats that intrigue him? There is another thread running concurrently about the notion of "doing it on the cheap" as you apparently view a 10K cruiser, or perhaps never doing it. Hey, make sure you tip your waitresses, Skipper.


----------



## sully75

steve77 said:


> Second the recommendation to check out Atom Voyages - Home. James Baldwin has sailed his Pearson Triton around the world twice. Note that he extensively modified his boat to get it ready for a circumnavigation. I have a Triton (happens to be for sale) and while you can get a nice one for around $10K it will cost you some more (unless you DIY) to get it ready to cross an ocean.
> 
> Baldwin also has a nice article about small blue-water boats on his website:
> 
> Atom Voyages - Good Old Boats List


Tritons are ridiculously cheap. There's a yahoo group for them. One went on eBay for less that $100 recently I think.

I think of them as a kit boat more or less. Mines a 61. They are so old that they need a lot of sprucing up so you might as well make it the way you want it. It's been incredibly easy to sail this boat. Working in getting her set up for more audacious adventures. Perfect for one or two if you like each other. Dan spurr wrote a book called upgrading the cruising sailboat and a lot of it is about upgrades he did to his triton.


----------



## Cruiser2B

smurphny said:


> I'm surprised the Alberg 37 isn't mentioned in these lists along with the 30 and the 35. The 37 was designed for offshore use. The 30 and 35 were designed for "coastal cruising," although both have long records of circumnavigations. The 37 is a great boat and there are still quite a few of them around. If I were to renovate another GOB, it would probably be a 37.


I think because the OP price budget was 10K, I looked for an Alberg 37 and still do for a steal.

I would also consider a Westsail, but again not too many to be had under or in the 10K


----------



## Cruiser2B

sully75 said:


> Tritons are ridiculously cheap. There's a yahoo group for them. One went on eBay for less that $100 recently I think.
> 
> I think of them as a kit boat more or less. Mines a 61. They are so old that they need a lot of sprucing up so you might as well make it the way you want it. It's been incredibly easy to sail this boat. Working in getting her set up for more audacious adventures. Perfect for one or two if you like each other. Dan spurr wrote a book called upgrading the cruising sailboat and a lot of it is about upgrades he did to his triton.


There was a guy in Northern Chesapeake giving one away on craiglist. Prolly not bluewater capable but for 10k work of upgrades, prolly wouldn't be too far off.

there are a few Alberg 30's on sailboatlistings.com for or near $7500 that look to be in great shape.


----------



## blutoyz

Did the OP even check back in on this???


----------



## jameswilson29

He is wedged in his Cal 20 in the mid-Atlantic heading east...


----------



## bljones

"....nicely making way..."


----------



## steve77

sully75 said:


> Tritons are ridiculously cheap. There's a yahoo group for them. One went on eBay for less that $100 recently I think.
> 
> I think of them as a kit boat more or less. Mines a 61. They are so old that they need a lot of sprucing up so you might as well make it the way you want it. It's been incredibly easy to sail this boat. Working in getting her set up for more audacious adventures. Perfect for one or two if you like each other. Dan spurr wrote a book called upgrading the cruising sailboat and a lot of it is about upgrades he did to his triton.


I have a '66 Triton that I'm selling now. I wouldn't quite call it a "kit boat" but they are pretty simple and you can definitely "make it your own". I've seen some that were really spruced up going for well over $20k and some well under $5K. The Plastic Classics forum is also an excellent source for information on Tritons.


----------



## bfloyd4445

you said it. A true bluewater boat must have a well established reputation for living at sea under any and all conditions like the westsail 32, Citori, in the perfect storm. Don't remember the detyails but the coast guard I believe ordered the crew off but when the storm was over the Citori was found almost without damage. Now that's a bluewater boat


----------



## Cruiser2B

bfloyd4445 said:


> you said it. A true bluewater boat must have a well established reputation for living at sea under any and all conditions like the westsail 32, Citori, in the perfect storm. Don't remember the detyails but the coast guard I believe ordered the crew off but when the storm was over the Citori was found almost without damage. Now that's a bluewater boat


Satori is a good example of a fine bluewater boat, hard time finding a bluewater capable westsail for 10k I would think, same with other boats on OP list. But I will argue that there are just as many documented passages of Trition, Albergs and Vegas that can all be had for much closer to his $10k target.

I paid $4800 for my Alberg 30, put $3000 in upgrading and replacing standing and running rigging and chainplates...I am fairly certain at this point the boat can handle a bluewater passage better than I could.


----------



## contrarian

There is a Nebe Cape 28 for sail on Sailing Texas for 17k and a 28 footer in Texas would be the size of a 45 footer anywhere else!


----------



## bfloyd4445

that's your choice. Keep in mind you have but one life to give to Davy Jones<smile>......But wouldn't you rather keep it for yourself to enjoy?


----------



## Coquina

If you want a boat to drift around storms with no one aboard, a Westsail 32 is likely a very good choice.


----------



## Delezynski

Chriscross80,

Just read through this thread....

I find a lot to laugh at  and some just plane wrong. Like the statement, “Nowadays you wont get one of these boats through Panama Canal as they are too slow. The cost of the tug is more than the boats value.” I posted a Youtube video of a friends Nor'Sea transiting the canal!


I do have a preference for a couple of the listed boats and ANY of them, as was said in a post, “with work” could circumnavigate with the proper captain. 

My wife and I moved aboard our Nor'Sea 27 in 1996. We retired and went out the Golden Gate and turned left in 2004. We had a family emergency that brought us back to the US in late 2008. We kept the boat in Guaymas Mexico for a few years and did commuter cruising. We now have her back in the US and UNLIKE many of the larger boats, on a trailer. 

We now can cruise any port in the US and cross from one coat to the other in days! OR, circumnavigate IF we decided to, as MANY Nor'Sea boats have! 

I also see a lot of talk about $$. When Jill and I were looking at and for a boat, we COULD have bought a much larger boat. HOWEVER, we also understand the cost of a boat is NOT ONLY the purchase price, but also the upkeep. Not only is our boat less expensive to asil and cruise, it's also less to not sail! Just now she is sitting on her trailer, in a storage space a mile or two from me as I do some refit projects and I can tell you, the cost of the storage lot is less than 15% of a slip!

A main thing that I would suggest is the OP read the books listed in posts, but consider that they are ALL old data to varying degrees. What with the wonders of computers and the net, surf for TRUE recent stories of boats you are considering!!! DO NOT take all the naysayers at face value! The FIRST thing you need to understand is, YOU are the captain of your own boat! You are responsible for your decisions!!!!! Don't let others chart your direction. Listen to everyone, but make up your own mind.

Make your decision then take a time to venture out small steps at a time, learning from each.

GOOD LUCK and have a GREAT adventure, it's all fun.

Greg


----------



## Don L

Cruiser2B said:


> ...I am fairly certain at this point the boat can handle a bluewater passage better than I could.


that would put it in the company of most boats that aren't already falling apart


----------



## bfloyd4445

Cruiser2B said:


> Satori is a good example of a fine bluewater boat, hard time finding a bluewater capable westsail for 10k I would think, same with other boats on OP list. But I will argue that there are just as many documented passages of Trition, Albergs and Vegas that can all be had for much closer to his $10k target.
> 
> I paid $4800 for my Alberg 30, put $3000 in upgrading and replacing standing and running rigging and chainplates...I am fairly certain at this point the boat can handle a bluewater passage better than I could.


lotsa sweat but you know every inch of her I'll bet which will make her easier to deal with if something does break. 
I think most boats would likely do better without help in most circumstances.


----------



## krisscross

If I was just thinking about sailing across an ocean, Alberg 30 would be my first choice given a tight budget. It is a sturdy, no nonsense boat that is reasonably fast. You can get a decent one for under 8 grand, plus you have to spend another 8 for upgrades, extra sails and other blue water gear, maybe more. Still, that is not a lot of money all things considered. I would get to know the boat (and my responses) on short trips offshore, under 100 miles one way, to see if I can handle the boat and the ocean, gradually venturing out further and in less than ideal weather. That phase would still cost me less than 20 grand. If I did not like it I could cut my losses and sell the boat for 12 grand. Hopefully. Or keep the boat and just do coastal sailing, like most folks.


----------



## bfloyd4445

those are nice boats and can be had for a song


----------



## sailpower

SVAuspicious said:


> Southport, Beaufort, or Norfolk to Bermuda is barely bluewater.


Dave, I know that you are an accomplished offshore sailor but east coast of US to Bermuda is "barely" bluewater? To be fair, it kind of depends don't you think?
I've done it twice and yes, it's not all that far distance wise but the gulf stream factor can certainly be a multiplier.

I understand your criterion of weather forecasting window but we don't have Hawaii as a destination like the left coasters do.


----------



## bfloyd4445

Delezynski said:


> Chriscross80,
> 
> Just read through this thread....
> 
> I find a lot to laugh at  and some just plane wrong. Like the statement, "Nowadays you wont get one of these boats through Panama Canal as they are too slow. The cost of the tug is more than the boats value." I posted a Youtube video of a friends Nor'Sea transiting the canal!
> 
> I do have a preference for a couple of the listed boats and ANY of them, as was said in a post, "with work" could circumnavigate with the proper captain.
> 
> My wife and I moved aboard our Nor'Sea 27 in 1996. We retired and went out the Golden Gate and turned left in 2004. We had a family emergency that brought us back to the US in late 2008. We kept the boat in Guaymas Mexico for a few years and did commuter cruising. We now have her back in the US and UNLIKE many of the larger boats, on a trailer.
> 
> We now can cruise any port in the US and cross from one coat to the other in days! OR, circumnavigate IF we decided to, as MANY Nor'Sea boats have!
> 
> I also see a lot of talk about $$. When Jill and I were looking at and for a boat, we COULD have bought a much larger boat. HOWEVER, we also understand the cost of a boat is NOT ONLY the purchase price, but also the upkeep. Not only is our boat less expensive to asil and cruise, it's also less to not sail! Just now she is sitting on her trailer, in a storage space a mile or two from me as I do some refit projects and I can tell you, the cost of the storage lot is less than 15% of a slip!
> 
> A main thing that I would suggest is the OP read the books listed in posts, but consider that they are ALL old data to varying degrees. What with the wonders of computers and the net, surf for TRUE recent stories of boats you are considering!!! DO NOT take all the naysayers at face value! The FIRST thing you need to understand is, YOU are the captain of your own boat! You are responsible for your decisions!!!!! Don't let others chart your direction. Listen to everyone, but make up your own mind.
> 
> Make your decision then take a time to venture out small steps at a time, learning from each.
> 
> GOOD LUCK and have a GREAT adventure, it's all fun.
> 
> Greg


so, you retired in 96 went out the gate and turned left in 2004? then came back in 2008? But you were commuting and your boat was on a trailer??? What did you do for eight years outside the gate? Gets pretty nasty out side the golden gate much of the year.......I guess after 8 years at sea you must have been short on everything.
I understand your point about the economy and freedom one gets with a small boat I have two myself and looking to buy another only bigger maybe 30-42.
One more comfortable for the long haul

best wishes
B


----------



## Delezynski

B,

I think you might have misread my post.

We moved aboard our 27 footer in 1996.

We both had jobs and worked until 2004.

In 2004, we went out the gate and turned left.

In 2008 we had a family emergency, put our boat in a slip on mainland Mexico and commuter cruised from here to there until we bought a trailer. 

Now cruise half time, any place that has a good road leading to it. 

We feel our boat is very comfortable to live aboard. NOT ALL trailer boats are, but many of them can be with a bit of work!

What we did think was interesting, during our cruising, three (3) boat owners offered to trade straight across, there boat for ours. All three offers were very serious offers. And the boats were in good condition, actively being cruised and in the 37 to 41 foot range, and well known cruising boat makes. 

I think the offers point to the condition a lot of full time cruisers find themselves in. We met many cruisers "trapped" on there boats! They sold everything to go cruising and now can't get back as the boat has lost value. Or the boat was in an area that made it just to hard to get back home. They are paying bills month after month for a boat they no longer want in a place they are tired of going to and can't get the price they think they have to get.

Greg


----------



## mad_machine

isn't the BCC 28 the boat that is based on the Pardey's Talesin?


----------



## JonEisberg

mad_machine said:


> isn't the BCC 28 the boat that is based on the Pardey's Talesin?


More like TALIESIN was based upon the design of Lyle Hess, a couple of years after he drew the BCC...

Lyle C. Hess , Yacht Designer Profile : Bluewaterboats.org


----------



## JonEisberg

sailpower said:


> Dave, I know that you are an accomplished offshore sailor but east coast of US to Bermuda is "barely" bluewater? To be fair, it kind of depends don't you think?
> I've done it twice and yes, it's not all that far distance wise but the gulf stream factor can certainly be a multiplier.
> 
> I understand your criterion of weather forecasting window but we don't have Hawaii as a destination like the left coasters do.


Yeah, I was a bit surprised by that comment as well... Using his criteria, I suppose it could be said Sydney-Hobart is not even close to being bluewater, as well 

Sailing from the NE to Bermuda is certainly 'bluewater' enough for me...

Particularly in November or December...


----------



## mad_machine

JonEisberg said:


> More like TALIESIN was based upon the design of Lyle Hess, a couple of years after he drew the BCC...
> 
> Lyle C. Hess , Yacht Designer Profile : Bluewaterboats.org


I knew Hess designed their boat.. I was just not sure which came first


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

Delezynski said:


> What we did think was interesting, during our cruising, three (3) boat owners offered to trade straight across, there boat for ours. All three offers were very serious offers. And the boats were in good condition, actively being cruised and in the 37 to 41 foot range, and well known cruising boat makes.
> 
> Greg


Sounds familiar. No one has asked to do a trade for my boat. Right after I bought my boat, it was stored on the trailer at the storage lot and I was asked by a few people if I was willing to sell it. One of them was also the manager of the storage lot and he even knew I just bought it and just jokes about it. I tell them, Not a chance!


----------



## DougSabbag

For the very least expensive vessel which neverthless fits your plans, I would suggest a ketch rigged GulfStar.

They are very solid, provide great liveaboard room, can be single handed, have relatively low freeboard, and enough were built to provide choices to select from.

Those can be acquired fairly reasonably, i.e., NEGOTIATE HARD.


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## oceangirl

Out of the whole lot, the BCC is just a sweet sweet vessel, and could take just about anything. But I don't think you can find one cheap, maybe wood?
After that, the Alberg30 or the Albin vega27. 

All of them could do what you want, some would require beefing up. Comfort, not just space but sea kindly motion, should be considered too.

Sorry if this has been stated before. Good luck on your boat shopping.


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## bfloyd4445

Delezynski said:


> B,
> 
> I think you might have misread my post.
> 
> We moved aboard our 27 footer in 1996.
> 
> We both had jobs and worked until 2004.
> 
> In 2004, we went out the gate and turned left.
> 
> In 2008 we had a family emergency, put our boat in a slip on mainland Mexico and commuter cruised from here to there until we bought a trailer.
> 
> Now cruise half time, any place that has a good road leading to it.
> 
> We feel our boat is very comfortable to live aboard. NOT ALL trailer boats are, but many of them can be with a bit of work!
> 
> What we did think was interesting, during our cruising, three (3) boat owners offered to trade straight across, there boat for ours. All three offers were very serious offers. And the boats were in good condition, actively being cruised and in the 37 to 41 foot range, and well known cruising boat makes.
> 
> I think the offers point to the condition a lot of full time cruisers find themselves in. We met many cruisers "trapped" on there boats! They sold everything to go cruising and now can't get back as the boat has lost value. Or the boat was in an area that made it just to hard to get back home. They are paying bills month after month for a boat they no longer want in a place they are tired of going to and can't get the price they think they have to get.
> 
> Greg


 my interpretation of your first post sounds much more adventurous than reality.....chuckle......I know exactly what your saying and only have little boats now bbecause of there ability to go anywhere except blue water cruising. but you and others have taught me that even that is possible with the right boat. I am considering something like a wetsnail for my next boat but never for a livaboard....not enough room on a boat for all my junk<smile> 
best wishes
Britt


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## Delezynski

Britt,

I thought that might be what you were saying.

I remember reading about a couple who went out with the plan to spend a year or more just sailing, no destination. I don't think it ended well..... 
AND, they had a large boat.

We looked at the wetsnail 28 before we went with the Nor'Sea. We liked the layout in the Nor'Sea better. BOTH would work!

We know what you are saying about "STUFF"! We still have a lot of stuff. Things we just could not part with, like 2 motorcycles, antiques and photos. We had it in one of those pack it yourself portable storage boxes. We paid for the storage by the year and got a good deal. Had to think outside the box to make it happen... 

Greg


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## copacabana

Greg and Jill, it's nice to have you aboard here at Sailnet! I've been following your adventures for a while and have enjoyed your videos immensely. Hopefully you'll stick around and offer more of the "small cruiser" perspective.

Cheers!


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## Delezynski

copacabana said:


> Greg and Jill, it's nice to have you aboard here at Sailnet! I've been following your adventures for a while and have enjoyed your videos immensely. Hopefully you'll stick around and offer more of the "small cruiser" perspective.
> 
> Cheers!


THANKS for the welcome!

We hope to be here a lot. May be offline for months when we head back out, but connection keeps getting better so that may not take place. And we don't plan on being so "out back" as much as before.

This looks like a nice active group.  
Hope I can add as much as I hope to get! With the new trailer we hope to hit a lot of new places to us.

Greg


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## bfloyd4445

Delezynski said:


> Britt,
> 
> I thought that might be what you were saying.
> 
> I remember reading about a couple who went out with the plan to spend a year or more just sailing, no destination. I don't think it ended well.....
> AND, they had a large boat.
> 
> We looked at the wetsnail 28 before we went with the Nor'Sea. We liked the layout in the Nor'Sea better. BOTH would work!
> 
> We know what you are saying about "STUFF"! We still have a lot of stuff. Things we just could not part with, like 2 motorcycles, antiques and photos. We had it in one of those pack it yourself portable storage boxes. We paid for the storage by the year and got a good deal. Had to think outside the box to make it happen...
> 
> Greg
> 
> Makes sense to me. And I agree, I am not fond of the wetsnail layout just there reputation for surviving everything out there. Nor sea?/...never seen one in person got to check em out. Thanks Greg.
> 
> For one the bigger the boat the harder to control short handed. Now this is assuming that the vessel is capable of the task she has been assigned, The point being a large bluewater boat is a serious handful single handed in a storm. While I have zero experience with sailboats I do have copious small boat experience up to 42 feet and the bigger they are the more work they are. I have a little less than 18 foot tin boat custom built for me by Wooldridge boats, the people that invented jet outboards, that has proven to be simply amazing. Up until this boat I would under no conditions have ever went offshore in anything under 27 feet. I have used that little guy to cross the bar at Winchester bay and coos bay Oregon many many times in the two years since she was born. I guess if one has the skill, experience, and desire he can beat the odds more often than not....I must admit though size is nice in open water.
> Britt


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## krisscross

Awesome Alberg 30 in California with nice gear for 5 grand:
1965 Ericson Alburg sailboat for sale in California


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## bfloyd4445

krisscross said:


> Awesome Alberg 30 in California with nice gear for 5 grand:
> 1965 Ericson Alburg sailboat for sale in California


are they considered blue water vessels


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## killarney_sailor

Anyone able to compare the characteristics of the Ericson Alberg 30 and the Whitby Boat Works one? I did know there two Alberg 30s.


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## krisscross

bfloyd4445 said:


> are they considered blue water vessels


When they are in truly sea-worthy shape and sailed by experienced crew, they are certainly blue water boats.


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## KristinKay

I am very new here and joined the forum just to comment on this thread. It is very interesting to read the opinions and discussion on the suitability of a particular cruiser for open ocean sailing. It is also interesting to read how some people may go to _____ and see hardly any boats below 12m in length so they say they would not sail in any of these smaller boats even rafted together.

Open ocean passages are 75% the skipper and only 25% the boat. These days we have more people with money to buy large boats than we have experienced sailors. And they think the bigger boat makes them a bigger sailor.

To select a suitable vessel for long passages on the open ocean where you may be many days from land, please make sure it can safely carry provisions for your crew. I say safely because if you overload your boat or have to stow too many provisions (such as extra fuel in cans) on deck it will adversely affect how your boat will handle in heavy seas. Evaluating a boat for 10 or more days at sea involves firstly making a list of everything you have to carry onboard. If the boat cannot carry all your provisions, with most of the weight below or close to the waterline (especially fresh water and diesel fuel, which are the heaviest of your provisions), then it will not work. You can get away with loading a boat top heavy for coastal sailing or areas like the eastern Caribbean where you can run for shelter within a few hours to wait out some weather. In the open ocean you can't.

Fatigue is the number one problem with extended ocean voyages. Especially in weather. Always remember that and be prepared for it. If you are single-handing your boat be prepared to spend 40-50 hours at the helm sometimes because the autopilot will not safely handle the boat during a long blow - especially if you are sailing downwind with following seas.

Make sure your boat is seaworthy. If your boat is dismasted because of failed rigging, or a sail shreds because it was neglected, or a seacock suddenly springs a leak, or you lose power, or you lose the rudder, or many other critical things - your passage will become more of an adventure than you had planned on. If you are sailing solo rig your boat with jacklines before you leave port and never go out on deck, even in pleasant sailing weather, without your harness clipped to them. If you make one slip and fall overboard you will enjoy total solitude while you watch your boat sail over the horizon. It will not come back and pick you up, and you will be wondering how well your PLB works after about the first 5 or 6 hours.

If you are a sailing couple there will come a time when your partner is not able to crew simultaneous with being caught in a gale. Select a boat that either of you can handle competently. The larger the vessel, the harder the boat is to handle. Do not rely on roller furled main'sl thinking it will make the boat easier to single hand, so you can sail a bigger boat. These are all the rage now. But if you are not able to drop the halyard and puddle the main on the deck in an emergency in the middle of the night, it does not belong out there. I have seen too many times when we have retired to our stateroom on peaceful seas with a 10-12 kt breeze only to be woken up at 0200 with a boat that is grossly over-canvassed in 30-40 kt wind that was not predicted. If you have to climb the mast to pull a jam out of your main'sl, or cut the clew and watch your main be destroyed, it will make your passage much more of an adventure than you probably wanted.

Make sure you have the parts onboard to replace or repair any part of the standing rigging on your boat and carry spare sails. I have seen many yachts over the years that shredded a sail in a storm, did not have a spare, and did not carry enough fuel to make port. I have seen several that were motoring because of failed rigging and no way to repair or replace it. I have seen about a dozen over the years that have been dismasted at sea.

Any of the nice boats in the list in the poll for this thread are capable of making an ocean crossing, competently crewed. Some, like the Cal 20, will have to have skipper only because the boat is not capable of carrying provisions for 10 or more days at sea for two persons.

It is actually much less work and more pleasant making ocean passages than sailing coastal areas. But the difference is that if you are single-handing your boat the hours and fatigue will eventually wear you down. While single-handed ocean crossings can and have been done, it is much more enjoyable if you have a partner. And having a partner means being able to carry provisions for two, which means a bigger boat. If you are unsure, stock your boat, take your partner and try taking a 10-12 day cruise along a coastal area without coming into port and see how it works out. But above all, always remember that it is not the boat that makes the sailor.


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## Cruiser2B

killarney_sailor said:


> Anyone able to compare the characteristics of the Ericson Alberg 30 and the Whitby Boat Works one? I did know there two Alberg 30s.


I believe the Ericson is 35ft Alberg design

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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