# Oil Scare - Universal M25



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Shortly after she was hauled last fall, I changed the oil, and oil filter, and topped up the transmission with Dextron III ATF to keep the seals lubed over the long hard winter (that never came). The vessel is a '87 Oday 35 with a Universal M25, and a HBW 50 transmission. I had used Motorcraft 15W-40 Diesel oil, and a Fram PH-3593A Filter (I am not a fan of Fram filters, but had this on hand). 
The Fram fits tightly under the alternator. Here is a pic with the Fram installed; 









To start the season, I simply sucked the ATF (from the bottom of the xmission) down to the proper level, and should be good to go. Or, so I thought...

Because I also installed the new drive line and Engine mounts this past spring, I headded off Friday night for a "shake down" cruise to Cuttyhunk. The new drive line consisted of a new SS Prop Shaft, Cutlass Bearing, PSS Shaft seal, Coupling, 4 engine mounts, and dropped and reinstalled the rudder (which you have to do on the O'day in order to install the P-shaft.)

I could not align the coupling to the engine with feeler gauges, because, by design, the PSS Shaft seal pushes the coupling toward the engine, and the coupling had been machined with a lip that protrudes and fits snugly within the transmission coupling. This lip essentially forces the alignment of the coupling to the transmission, even wnen the bolts are loose. you can see the lip in this pic; 








and here is a pic of the assembly;









However, the drive line seems good, as I can easily grab the stainless steel prop shaft and turn it in either direction by hand while the engine is in neutral. It is also 100% better than the alignment that was done by the PO.

We set off at 19:00 on Friday night, and because the wind was directly on the nose (isn't it always?), we motored for about 2 hrs. I was looking for any unusual noise or vibration, and was happy that tere was none. I was a little bothered that the engine would not reach full RPM at WOT. Instead of hitting 3000, it maxed out at about 2600. I may poke around with the alignment to see if I can address this.

However, after 2 hrs of motoring I was shocked to find that the oil pressure alarm had not gone off, but the gauge was reading just about 0 psi. This is a picture of the gauge, taken when the engine was off. The needle never dropped as low as this picture shows, but it did point at (maybe a little above) the 0 mark.









I did not want to be stranded at Cuttyhunk, so decided to curtail the trip, and headded back to port. The wind was now behind us , so we shut down the motor and had a beautiful night sail back toward home port. When preparing to enter the channel to the marina, I started the engine, and carefully watched the gauge. The gauge was back up to ~30 psi at 2500 RPM. It's a long channel, so I continued to watch as the needle gradually fell to less than 25 PSI, and then, by the time we docked, was close to 0 PSI. Again, the pressure alarm NEVER went off.

My theory is that the multi-grade oil may have been of a lower viscosity than the container was marked. The next day I changed the oil and filter again, this time using a Bosch 3323 filter - which is narrower than the Fram, and fits like a dream under the new alternator and mounting bracket.

I also hypothesized that a dirty fuel filter may be causing the engine to be fuel starved at high RPMs. So, while I had my tools handy, and hands greasy, I also changed the fuel filters to a Parker R24P (30 micron) primary, and a WIX 33390 (10 micron "nominal" [whatever that means]).

I then ran the engine for over an hour as a test. The pressure level never dropped below 25PSI. However, I could still not rev the engine over 2600 RPM.

Thoughts?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

A defective oil pressure sender would be the first thing I would think of. 

Zero oil pressure at 1500+ rpm for real would almost always indicate a serious problem and would usually be associated with some heavy knocking sounds.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I believe the sender IS working, as it does have a reading when the engine is cold, and when I rev the engine, what ever reading I have increases.

Fortunately no klack - klack noises; well other than the normal diesel sound.


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## Oaksail (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm assuming your gauge is of the electrical type and not a direct pressure type.
Remove the sender and thread in a fitting, flexible hose and gauge and assess the pressure, a 0 to 100 psi gauge should work.
I had the same problem last year, turned out to be a sender wire grounding out at the back of the engine. 0 psi and the sender grounds itself to the block. The higher the pressure, the more resistance to being grounded.
Even though your gauge reads OK when cold your engine will vibrate differently when it is warmed up and cause the sender wire to ground out at a different vibration.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

What were the pressure readings last season? Did you use the same oil? What kind of filter did you use before? Possible situations:

1. Electric gauge sender going bad or poor connections? A mechanical gauge might be an option?

2. A filter that is plugged and the by-pass valve is not operating? As you changed filters and pressure stayed at 25 lbs the old filter may have been faulty?

Not reving over 2,600 RPM is likely another issue. Clean prop? Nothing caught underneath?
Plugged tank vent? Pickup tube screen partially plugged? Proper fuel filters? Fuel lines kinked or de-laminating inside?, on & on & on. Doubt that it is oil related but if so, likely something serious inside. Let us know how it comes out.

Paul T


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Forgot this, maybe someting crawled up inside the air intake tract and is partially blocking it?
Maybe old "bad" fuel? Both may be a stretch but worth considering?

Paul T


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Same grade of oil (15W-40) different brand (Motorcraft, from WalMart). Electric gauge - but I believe that it is working. I think that the issue is that the oil was mis-labeled.

Also, forgot to mention that the Oil breather was blowing a fair amount of gas (air), and a little bit of oil out of the engine when the oil pressure was low, and RPMs high. This made me think excessive blow by - caused by the wrong grade of oil. 

Also, also, I checked the oil pressure relief valve while I had the oil out of the crankcase, on the theory that it may have been stuck open - it wasn't.

Low RPMs is still a puzzle though. Great idea about the air restriction!!... I will definitely check that out on my next trip to the boat.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Prop was just polished and balanced and painted with transducer paint. It is possible that we picked up a line, but I doubt it. I will check anyway ASAP.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

I seem to remember reading about problems with the oil pressure relief valve on another site (may have been the C34 tech wiki at C34.org or on SailboatOwners.com). The problem was similar to yours but I can't find the link right now...


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Maybe just replace the engine oil pressure relief valve? Although when you changed to the Bosch oil filter you had a steady 25 lbs after an hour run? I remember on another thread some time ago someone had a similar problem and switching to the proper filter solved the problem. Not familiar with your particular engine but 25 lbs doesn't seem like a lot of pressure at higher engine speeds? If you have a shop manual it probably has the pressure specs in it. Blow by, is it noticeably more than last season? Any sudden change may mean 
an "event" has taken place inside the engine. Hard to say how much is too much without seeing it or seeing how much liquid oil is coming out with it. Did the breather go back to "normal" after you re-changed the oil & filter? Overall, if you were running it hard with little or no oil pressure for very long it would be toast, but some damage could happen and the engine could still be running. A compression test may show ring, piston, or bore damage. Might be a good idea to try a mechanical gauge, at least temporarily, just to rule out any sender or connection problems.

Paul T


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

JimMcGee said:


> I seem to remember reading about problems with the oil pressure relief valve on another site (may have been the C34 tech wiki at C34.org or on SailboatOwners.com). The problem was similar to yours but I can't find the link right now...


Probably the Ericson Owners Group... See thread here; Oil pressure problem?

Also note that I already checked the valve, and it is clean. I may replace the spring, as pointed out in the Ericson forum.

Because the pressure is better since the oil change, I strongly suspect the viscosity of the oil that I added last fall did not match what the package said.

Another tid-bit to chew on; the engine water temp never went over 180.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

...and for the guy in the Ericson forum that couldn't find the relief valve, here it is;


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

For low rpm check your air intake, the screen or filter may be blocked. You might have a faulty op sender if the alarm didn't go off especially if the temp didn't rise. 10m is fine for the filter, but I'd be looking for something simple first.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

eherlihy said:


> Probably the Ericson Owners Group... See thread here; Oil pressure problem?
> 
> Also note that I already checked the valve, and it is clean. I may replace the spring, as pointed out in the Ericson forum.
> 
> ...


That wasn't the thread but the info is the same. Evidently this problem is not uncommon on Universals.

FWIW the C34 tech wiki at c34.org has a lot of good info on these engines.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

If changing to a different oil solved the problem the original oil viscosity must have been WAY off from what was printed on the label?

Paul T


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Forgot this, if the crankcase was overfilled perhaps the crank was turning the oil into froth?

Paul T


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

E, I don't know where I read it but someone had the wrong oil filter and after installing the right type the oil pressure returned. I'm guessing that happened to you.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Are you sure the Motorcraft oil was a "C" rated oil not an "S" rated? I know Motorcraft makes one but I know my local Wal*mart does not carry it.

I have one word for diesel oil..... ROTELLA T !!!

Top End Rotella T Exclusively Since New:

















And the hours when the pic was taken:


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

sea_hunter said:


> For low rpm check your air intake, the screen or filter may be blocked. You might have a faulty op sender if the alarm didn't go off especially if the temp didn't rise. 10m is fine for the filter, but I'd be looking for something simple first.


That is a great idea, and I shall check the air intake...

However the engine _will _hit 3K RPM in neutral, but not under load...

I am fairly confident that the oil pressure sender is working as it should.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

JimMcGee said:


> That wasn't the thread but the info is the same. Evidently this problem is not uncommon on Universals.
> 
> FWIW the C34 tech wiki at c34.org has a lot of good info on these engines.


Yes, I have the C36, C34 and C30 websites bookmarked on my home computer. I am on a business trip this week in Chicago without my personal laptop. (Will I ever be able to retire, and do what I love, instead of having to do what other people want?)

The Ericson owners group is also a good one. A couple of well known posters from this forum used to hang out there.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

dabnis said:


> Forgot this, if the crankcase was overfilled perhaps the crank was turning the oil into froth?
> 
> Paul T


Good idea, but no. The crankcase oil level was spot on.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

deniseO30 said:


> E, I don't know where I read it but someone had the wrong oil filter and after installing the right type the oil pressure returned. I'm guessing that happened to you.


Thanks D-

I read that post as well... However, IIRC, that poster had consistent low (no) oil pressure with 3 non OEM filters. (S)he then tried a genuine Universal (gold plated) $30 filter, and the pressure magically returned.

My symptom is that the oil pressure dropped as the engine heated up.

The symptom seems to be gone, now that I have changed the oil and Filter (I really like the Bosch filter) but I won't _really _know until I try motoring for about 2.5 hours.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Maine - Rotella T it will be for the next oil change - probably next week!

BTW - do you eat off of that engine? You could!


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Is the pressure sensor electric and functioning properly?Pressure line to real pressure gauge tells the truth.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> Are you sure the Motorcraft oil was a "C" rated oil not an "S" rated? I know Motorcraft makes one but I know my local Wal*mart does not carry it.
> 
> I have one word for diesel oil..... ROTELLA T !!!
> 
> ...


Agree with Maine on the ROtella T. That is all that goes in my engine. But mine hasn't turned red yet. Mine is still silver and grey. Hey Maine, how long before my engine turns red and shiny like yours and not black and greasy like it is now???

Is it just me, or does everyone else here feel inadequate when Maine shows picures of his shiny engine???

Brian


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

After you worked for an owner of a LARGE sport fishing boat and HUGE Mega Yacht who has MIRRORS installed under the engines in the engine rooms, and you wear latex gloves when working in there, like a surgery room, everything else seems dirty, including my engine...

I would have been fired if the engines on the boat I worked on in College looked like my engine... We're talking Pebble Beach Concourse clean......


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

UPDATE: The solution to this puzzle was the SENDER, as TQA pointed out in post 2.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Good to hear you got it fixed and it was the inexpensive option.


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