# Major wiring nightmare...



## 7tiger7 (May 30, 2006)

Well, I spent the day aboard my new Catalina 27, trying to sort out the electrical system... it's a mess.

Here is what works, via the fuse panel:
-interior lights
- navigation lights
- AM/FM stereo
- main bilge pump (although the positive wire is running directly to the battery's positive terminal, via a jump-wire).

Here is what does not power on (all the important stuff it seems):
- VHF
- Knotmeter
- Wind gauge
- What appears to be either an electronic compass, or remote display for tiller-pilot.

My biggest concern is that I seem to be able to see all the negative wires feeding into the back of the fuse-panel, but I can't seem to find where the positive wires connect to. 

I'm really tempted to just rip out all the current wiring and start from scratch, so I know what's what...

Any suggestions?
Thanks all
Phillip


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

You may be right in that, particularly if it's a common positive composed of a mess of solder and wire.

Start at the batteries and work out via separate buss bars or terminal blocks (with intermediate fuses of some capacity) for the various circuits. If you can trace the original runs, you might preserve them for the future (think "LEDs replace auto 12 VDC lights in cabin, so the 20 gauge isn't a partial resistor anymore!").

I found on my old '70s boat that I had a huge improvement in amp usage and sheer brightness when I went from 16 and 18 gauge in the mast to 12 and 14 gauge for the masthead/steaming/anchor/spreader lights. That was just to the terminal block in the head...I left untouched the original 20-22 gauge wiring to the panel. I also ran an 18 gauge wire directly to the stern light from the panel and again, BING! Bright and tight, as they say.

If you have the skills and can crimp and solder, this is tedious but rewarding work, particularly in a harsh environment where creeping corrosion can lower electrical flow (which just turns to heat). I am expanding my panel into a set of 12 VDC outlets and a decent 10 amp-capable line to a forepeak workshop...just because I want it. If I do the wiring now, I can provide the battery banks later to energize the lines on demand. Good luck with the reverse engineering.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Before you start ripping develop a plan for the re-wiring. Acquiring some colored tape and using it while tracing out the current set-up may reveal less work than originally expected. Developing the plan, I ran my wiring in conduit, took probably longer than the actual job itself. There are numerous threads existant on wiring and electrical issues here. Reading them, and becoming conversant in electrical matters is paramount before commencement of the project. A significant motivator should be the fact that improper wiring can result in fire, a seaman's worst fear.

It is not a hard project, mostly tedious. But it is a project that you will want to do only once, doing it right the first time. Good luck. We're here for the inevitable questions and mysteries.


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## dohenyboy (Aug 16, 2006)

go to your office supply store and buy a labelmaker.
Then label the wires as you trace them


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also, might want to check the wiring used currently. If it has turned black with corrosion or is very stiff and brittle, it is well worth ripping it all out and replacing with marine grade since that will help prevent the imminenty fire that the wiring is about to become.  Corroded non-marine grade wiring is a good starter for boat fires.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yep - after spending several weekends messing with the existing mess of wire on my Catalina and making little progress, I got pissed off, ripped it all out, and in a quarter of the time, had it re-wired to a spec I can now trust. If in doubt and you've got the time and ability, just rewire it.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, fixing someone else's screwup, especially without documentation, often takes far longer than doing it properly from scratch. It can also be far more expensive in the long-run.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*bilge pump*

Hello,

IMHO the bilge pump SHOULD be wired directly to the battery. I like to have the float switch powered directly to the battery. This way, no matter how I (or anyone else) sets the switches, if the water rises high enough to trip the float, the pump will come on and do it's thing.

I also have a separate power line running through a switch on the panel to the bilge pump. This one I can turn on and off. It's helpful for draining more water than the float switch, and if the float switch fails I can still turn on the pump.

Regarding your question about re-wiring, it sounds like a lot of work to me. If your existing wiring is in poor condition, black, oxidized, or otherwise nasty, then you should bite the bullet and replace it. OTOH, if you just don't understand it, take some time and go through it. Perhaps you are just missing a switch or two.

Barry


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Phillip, it could be that you are just missing one connection to an "instruments" connection. Could be a missing fuse or it could be that someone just "twisted and taped" an extra positive lead for them all, and that fell apart, as bad connections will.

Your best bet, if you want a RELIABLE electrical system in the future? Is to trace out every wire and lead, end to end, and check that they are proper tinned wire, properly connected up. Or to replace them as needed. Avoid the urge to "cheap out" because there's a big difference between things that will get you home, and things you can rely on for the next 10 years or longer.

On lablemakers from the office? Most either turn black, or fall off from engine heat and moisture, way before you need them. I prefer to use a permanent marker to label things, or to use "real" labels (plastic or metal) that you write on and tie on to things. Or permanent tape type. Haven't found any label maker labels that will last for two or three years on a boat.

Take notes, if a "schematic" is a foreign word to you, at least make a rought sketch that shows where your new wiring goes--end to end.


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## marinedtcomRob (Oct 26, 2005)

I'd take one of those not working items, the VHF, and trace it back. Check it's inline fuse first. If you trace both positive and negative back, one may lead you to where the problem is with the other instruments also. Use a voltmeter so you can figure out where you have power and where you are losing it. Good luck.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I have a rats nest of wires going to a 30 year old panel. Could I remove some of those wires and wire it to a "sub panel" located at the navagation station. Would something like THIS work ? Also is better to use 12 g wire rather then 16g, which I seem to have a lot of ?


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

You can use #12 instead of #16, its bigger and will result in less voltage drop.

You will have to feed your sub-panel with a wire sizrd to carry the sub panel load if you do that. (Install a sub panel)

You might find after going through what you have that there are ample existing breakers to do what you want. Suggest you find out what you have before adding more.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

freesail-

16AWG wire is pretty light weight for most of the wiring on a 12VDC electrical system.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I will replace all the light gauge wire I can in the next couple of weeks. If there is a better idea for a sub panel please let me know. Thanks, SD, Gburton.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

FS99. In your orginal post you said that the negative wires all connect behind the fuse panel but you cannot find where the positive wires are connected. Is fuse panel your 12 volt fuse panel? If so that's where your positve wires are connected. There may also be a sub panel to which your electronics are wired. Judging from your list I would suspect you have a blown fuse or a switch turned off. Before replacing the wire I would trace back from these electronics to their source. I would also agree with the above posts that #16 be replaced with #12 and agree with Sailaway that before replacing wire you make a detailed plan. The plan will help you in installation and also in future trouble shooting.


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## 7tiger7 (May 30, 2006)

Hi everyone - 
thanks for the info (by the way, the sub-panel question was not mine, it was from FS99).
I traced the positive wire for the VHF back to behind the panel - and it is disconnected. The problem is that I can't seem to find where ANY of the positive wires for anything is connected... it would seem that there would be some kind of power strip or bar somewhere, I just can't seem to find it - I mean, would the positive wire for the VHF just connect to the back of the 12 volt fuse panel? 
Also, on this Catalina, the power-panel is down near the cabin sole, under the sink- in my opinion it's a horrible place for it, and was thinking of relocating it somewhere higher up. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Phillip


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, you really need to relocate the panel someplace higher, where it is less subject to water getting to it. Mine is located just above the outboard end of the nav console.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I mean, would the positive wire for the VHF just connect to the back of the 12 volt fuse panel? " In theory, something like that. Sometimes a boat comes with one small panel and the PO simply adds in extra wires helter-skelter, to another panel, to the battery switch, to the battery. Tee'd off the cabin lights...one never knows.

Whether the 16g wire is adequate would depend on the load (the amperage each device draws) and the length of the run. There are wiring charts available on the web that show what wire gauge ("AWG" American Wire Gauge is standard, "SAE" Society of Automotive Engineers is used in auto wiring and runs a full size smaller--less capacity--at the same nominal gauge size) versus the length of the run.

Basically, you measure the length of the wiring run form the distribution point (fuse block, etc.) round trip to-and-from the device. Let's say that's 20 feet, ten feet each way. And the device, a VHF radio, takes 25 watts, which is roughly 2.5 amps. For safety, you'd look for a wire size that can support a 3-4 amp load with less than a 3% voltage drop. (Sailnet has some articles with these specs.) 16 gauge wire would be marginal, 14 gauge wire would be suitable--for the short a run. 12g would be reasonable overkill.

And again, it should be fully tinned stranded wire on a boat, to prevent it from rotting out.

But then, you also need to match the fuse or breaker to the load AND the wire, whichever is lower. If the wire can support 10 amps, and the load is 4 amps....You've go with a 7.5A fuse or breaker, to make sure it will support normal operation of the load--but blow out before the wire can possibly overheat and start a fire.

The online articles from various vendors (Balmar, Blue Seas, Ancor) and vendors (Sailnet, West Marine) will give you a fast understanding of the basics of this stuff. An inexpensive book like "the 12 volt doctor" or "the 12v bible" will fill in all the rest you need to know, for a safe, robust, reliable 12v system on your boat.

It ain't rocket science, it just takes a little reading up front to get it right.
Since whole spools of wire are usually cheaper than buying odd feet of odd sizes, we often buy spools (10g, 12g) and use wire that is heavier than needed (mroe expensive) rather than going nuts over the details.<G>


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also, one thing HS didn't point out... going slightly heavier on the wire is a form of cheap insurance, since it is far less likely to overheat and cause a fire... since it is oversized to begin with. 

You can check out wire sizes for various runs and voltage drops here: LINK or LINK


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

sd-
"heavier on the wire is a form of cheap insurance" Not really, if it is properly sized for the circuit load and properly fused--heavier wire may be just wasted money and a slwer heavier boat.<G> The only time I go really generous on wire size is for distribution runs like cabin lights (where something is likely to be tapped in off the same run in the future) or if that's the spool I got the bargain on.
If I was Real Serious about wiring, I'd have about eight or ten colors (since there are color codes that "should" be followed) in about six or ten gauges each, too. 
File under "Ain't Gonna Happen."<G>


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, if it is properly fused and sized, but many boats aren't. Also, as you have pointed out, it is often easier and cheaper to buy a larger amount of slightly heavier wire that will accommodate most of your needs, rather than buying specific wire in shorter lengths tailored to each run. And, as you have also pointed out, going a bit heavier is useful as you can tap off of it and add another fixture in the future, without the need for running new cable in many cases.

Yes, you "should" have different colors, but it get very expensive to get the wire in the appropriate weight and color for each circuit. 


hellosailor said:


> sd-
> "heavier on the wire is a form of cheap insurance" Not really, if it is properly sized for the circuit load and properly fused--heavier wire may be just wasted money and a slwer heavier boat.<g> The only time I go really generous on wire size is for distribution runs like cabin lights (where something is likely to be tapped in off the same run in the future) or if that's the spool I got the bargain on.
> If I was Real Serious about wiring, I'd have about eight or ten colors (since there are color codes that "should" be followed) in about six or ten gauges each, too.
> File under "Ain't Gonna Happen."<g>


 </g></g>


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## rhaley (Jun 18, 2007)

Phillip

I ran into this problem on my C27 this winter and it took me about 30 minutes to decide to rip everything out and start over. Looking back now, it was absolutley the best decision. If there are any specifics that I might be able to answer, let me know.

Ryan


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I too am in the rip it out and start over camp. What's not to like about destroying someone else's hard work and doing it all over again ? If it weren't for projects like that then there wouldn't be anything to spend boat units on.

Someone else's electrical system is like someone else's computer - it doesn't matter how well it is organized, it just isn't right.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I dunno about relocating the panel, catalina has put them there for, oh, 30 odd years. 

I think you also have access to the back of it via the engine room door, I can't remember. (you'll also have to be a circus midget to get to it thru there.)


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## 7tiger7 (May 30, 2006)

I'm actually pretty handy with electrics and schematics (I obtained my ham radio lic' when I was 12 years old), but the issue I'm having is that I physically can't find where the positive wires should connect to the positive circuit. 
Also, the fuse-panel cannot be fully placed into its hole, as there is a wooden bulk-head directly behind the hole where the fuse-panel mounts. Do all C-27's of this vintage have a wooden panel there? 
Thanks
Phillip


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## rhaley (Jun 18, 2007)

Phillip

No bulkhead behind my panel. What year is your C27?

Ryan


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

There's always something in the way on boats.<G>

If your fuse panel doesn't fit flush, either a PO added that 
"bulkhead" or you don't have the original panel.

Options would be to relocate it; or to make a hole in the obstruction; or to build out a surface mount box (i.e. like a cigar box) to mount the panel in, so it can be secured in place.

As to where the positive wires go...it sounds like some PO added options to the factory setup (which may have originally been ordered "bare" except for nav lights) and just glommed them on to something. There should be one connection from the battery switch (or main DC power switch if you only have one battery) that goes to the fuse panel, and if that one wire is sufficient, you can add the rest by tapping that connection to the existing fuse panel. If that wire is too skinny...time to replace or upgrade.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

... another vote for the 'rip it out and do it right' approach. 

Some years ago I bought an almost brand new Catalina 34 and to this day am convinced that the company went down to the local bus station and hired a bunch of winos to do the wiring. It was an absolute nightmare! Nothing was done to standards; no color coding, no marine grade wire (not tinned), less than minimal gauge wire resulting in unacceptable voltage drop... ad nauseum. So I rewired her, and despite the considerable time required, I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

Other than that, a great boat. Sailed her all over the Pacific basin for a few years. 

Wish you all the best.

John


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## 7tiger7 (May 30, 2006)

My Catalina is a 1976. I am very close to considering relocating the panel higher up, possibly behind the sink? Yes, it might get splashed (I doubt it) but where it is now, if I ever have just one wave wash aboard and down the main hatch, my fuse panel would be under water instantly.
As an example of the wiring in my boat - I followed one positive wire, I think it was from VHF, or from some instrument - but, the positive wire started out as thin wire, then was spliced (with some loose electrical tape) to heavier gauge wire, then to a 2 foot long run of BLACK wire, then spliced again to red thin wire...
So yes, I'm very close to ripping out some of the wiring (ok, house lights work fine, nav lights work fine - so for now I'll leave them). But when I have a chance, I'm goint to rewire all nav instruments from scratch.
So be ready for lots more questions.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

is your panel "here"?


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## knotaloud (Jul 6, 2007)

7tiger7 said:


> the positive wire started out as thin wire, then was spliced (with some loose electrical tape) to heavier gauge wire, then to a 2 foot long run of BLACK wire, then spliced again to red thin wire...


Dude, what are you waiting for?....that old wiring needs to go away!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Just found this a minute ago. I'm in the same boat as you(pun intended) so I'm having a custom panel made and am looking at about 500 feet of 12/2 and 200 feet of 10/2. If not more. Agree with the others that ripping out the crap and doing it your way and properly is the best strat..............

WIRE/2-CONDUCTOR (Duplex) White Jacket w/Red and Black Inner Conductors


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

These guys have better prices...

http://bestboatwire.com/


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## tomdownard (Jul 8, 2007)

Just a thought. E-11 is the chapter in the ABYC manual for electric. If you do a search on the internet you can usually download it for free. It WILL be the standard that all boats will be judged by in the future and marine surveyors are quoting it today, on the recommendations to your insurance company. Instead of fighting it, get it, read it. It will pay off when you sell your boat. "It was rewired to ABYC standards" is music to a prospective buyers ears. You will be surprised how much in this chapter makes sense to you. Why reinvent the wheel? It tells you what color and gauge and type of wire to use for each fuction. It even tells you what color of tape to buy to code each end of a wire. Did you know, by ABYC standards, it is fine to color code the ends of the wire with tape? 
Do you know what color?
Why not use the combined knowledge of the best in the business for free!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanx for that Free...........


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

FWIW, duplex boat wire with RED AND BLACK inner conductors is obsolete. 

Codes for several years now have been to use YELLOW AND RED wires in the ships' DC system, in order to prevent anyone from confusing the black wire (a traditional landlubber's ground wire) with the WIRE OF DEATH, the HOT WIRE on an AC system.

Nothing wrong with using obsolete wire--just expect it to come with a discount, and make sure you're not ever going to confuse it with AC on your boat. (i.e. If you've got no AC wiring onboard, you're reasonably safe.)


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

guys, dumb question, but is most wiring duplex? or is it more efficient to use single wires, in series, point to point?

I've got a rats nest behind my Catalina 30 panel...and have bought a Paneltronics to replace it...AC and DC...but would prefer to minimize the headache / cost.

Thanks,

T


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

T-
The choice of duplex or not depends on whether you need to run two wires together (in which case the duplex jacket provides antichafe and keeps things neater and easier to run) or you are running each leg to a different place.

Many folks will run a common ground (i.e. one ground wire for all 3-4 masthead lights) but run a separate positive to each one. Or make drops to a common ground bus inside the boat, but separate home runs to the panel for each positive fused supply wire.

There are times when a common ground can be a good idea, and times when it is not. Duplex can also cost more--but that nice jacket provides good chafe protection.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you do run a common ground, make sure that it is large enough to handle all of the loads associated with it combined. If not, then you can have a problem in the future...


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Oh. Okay. Damnit, I'm a lost puppy. I was sort of getting the circuit, in series or in parallel, but this notion of a common ground. 

I've got Don Chase's book, the big one, with a 100 page section on 12 v electricity. 

But I'm struggling less with the theory, and more on the practical.

T


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A common ground would run across the ground pins of all the fixtures involved. For example, say you have a mast with three light fixtures—a foredeck light, a steaming light, an anchor light. 

Basically the ground wire would run up to the first light—the foredeck light, get connected to the ground point, then come back into the mast and up to the next fixture, the steaming light, and connect to its ground point, and then back up to the last fixture and terminate on the ground terminal of the anchor light. This is very similar to the way a series of electrical outlets in a house are wired. Then the three positive wires would just run up the mast and each would terminate at the positive terminal of a single fixture.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Okay: next question: what's the best way to route the various wires? I mean, it's not like all the various wires to the same common location (which would mean, you could use a nice 1" pvc pipe (or whatever is recco'd) as a conduit?

I need to get things (wires) across the boat, from a chart table mounted panel (starbord, midships) to the other side of the boat. bilge, engine, tanks are all in the way.

thoughts?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

You do not want wiring in the bilge. So. it is up to you. What is the simplest, most elegant run you can make from each position? Under any upholstering on the overhead? Or more typically, all the way aft and then across the companionway as needed. A wiring chase across the top of the engine compartment (with extra protection for the wires, and well secured) is often a good way to cross the space.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

on the 27 and 30, the batts are on one side (port), and you've got to get the wires from the panel to the other side of the boat. run a "chase" from the panel across the engine room to the starboard side. I've seen these run across the engine room, and on others, around the aft of the boat, thru the aft lazerette, behind the starboard lazerette, coming thru a hole 'specially' made for it. 

Your mileage may vary. 
Across the engine bay might be a good way to go, there is an access point over the fuel tank (oh, gimme a break, tell me you haven't seen a CAR with miles of wires between the gas tank and the frame. :0)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Many boats have a glassed in conduit for running wires along the length of the boat, as well as across the boat. If yours doesn't—it would make sense to install 1-2" PVC pipe to use as a conduit. I prefer 2" PVC pipe, since it makes snaking the wires easier, especially after you've already run a few circuits.  

If you decide not to use a conduit, you really should fasten/secure the wiring about every 18" or so, to help prevent the wire from work hardening and fatiguing...which leads to the conductors breaking.

I'd also second not running any wiring in the bilge if at all possible. Most of the wiring on my boat is run about the height of the settee backs... so it is in little danger of immersion of any sort.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I'd recommend using multiple runs of conduit. 3/4 " will take a few wires, 1/2" maybe four 12 gg, and one inch a bunch. The more wire you try to put through though the tougher it'll be, unless you run all the wire at the same time through each length of conduit and that's a real planning pain. If you run multiple tubes of conduit, without crowding each one, it makes it easier to run and easier, later, if you have a problem, to fix. Label each conduit with it's contents and use colored elec. tape around each circuit within to identify what it is. Thus you can open up the conduit at any point and find a specific circuit. I also do not recommend gluing every joint in the conduit. some joints will naturally fit together, and hold together, on their own. No gluing those joints allows easy future access.

I also would run flourescent lighting, instrumentation, and electronics gear in seperate wiring conduit. Running your VHF and your flourescent light in the same conduit is a good way to pick up interference.

Plastic conduit, or even cpvc, when heated gently can be formed to virtually any shape, eliminating the need for a lot of friction producing elbos. Where possible, use two 45 degree elbos versus 1-90 degree elbo. Or buy a "sweep" if it fits. This will make running the wire far easier


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## essman (Jun 29, 2002)

7tiger7 - To answer your question you have been trying to get to, the red positive wire usually connects to the breaker / fuse / switch of the panel. The black, negative wires usually eventually connect to a common ground connection such as a terminal block.
If wired properly the controlling device in a circuit (circuit breaker / fuse / switch) is always connected on the positive side of the circuit - or the red wire in your case.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

*this mght help*


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Electricians use a numbered tape system to mark the wires that they are working with. This tape should hold up to the ravages of time. At least the ones that were used on the ships I've worked on did. 
So you end up numbering each circuit, which could be a good thing. But it works when delving with multiple single colored wires.
You can get the Number tapes at the electrical section of major hardware stores.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You can't beat the knowledge gained from hiring an ABY certified marine electrician to come and walk through the system with you. For an hour or two of their time you will be able to identify problem areas and learn how to do it right. Granted this will cost a few dollars, but all the guessing here will not really help because none of us can see the situation. I do not wish to take anything away from all the good advise that can be found in this forum. If you are not REALLY good with electric stuff pay someone for a few hours and know you have it right. Once you have that knowledge it is yours to keep for all the sailing days to come. We were very fortunate, while Skip was the one who did all the wiring it was nice to have an ABY certified marine electrician friend who was able to explain the latest and greatest way of doing things, including how to bundle everything together after all was installed. I did help Skip with some of this process. He ran string from bow to stern four times. Once a wire was attached to it, it was relatively easy to pull it to its proper location. 
Kathleen
aboard
Schooner MISTRESS
I admit it. Electric stuff freaks me out. Even back in the day when I was fairly good at it. It is just one of those things you want to make certain is right, an electrical fire aboard is never a good thing.


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## rrayfield (Sep 26, 2006)

Replace, then you know what you have....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Wiring and old boats*

Buy a good book on Marine Electrical Systems. Purchase a copy of ABYC's electrical codes.

The battery(s) POS will lead to the No.1 and 2 terminals on the battery Selector Switch or the DC isolation breaker, if you have only one battery. From there it should go directly to the POS bus bar on the distribution panel. Each circuit (system) should have it's own breaker and/or fuse to protect the POS supply to the "Load", i.e., what is being powered. The first thing you need to do is hand-over-hand each wire to: 1. know it's condition and 2. know what load it is supplying. The battery NED (-) cable goes to a NEG (-) bus bar or terminal block(s), where all load NEG leads terminate (or should). Terminal blocks may be "ganged" together, i.e., there is a "jumper" wire from one to another or even from one or several, terminals to another on the same block. Terminals that are jumpered together are the same polarity - look closely.

Start by drawing an elevation (looking down at the deck) diagram of your boat. Show the location of the panel and all electric loads. draw a diagram of the back of the DC panel, indicate every fuse and identify the load side of the fuse with the label on the front of the panel. Pick a circuit to start with, label the load side wire at the panel with a number tape (do not use "dime tags"; the round tags with a string, they have a metal band around the cardboard tag and conduct electricity), indicate which number you used on your panel diagram. Hand-over-hand that wire all the way to the load. If there are terminal boards in the circuit tape the lead on both sides of the terminal. Identify the terminal board as a POS terminal with a POS or + wire tape. Everywhere there is a wire division, tape the wire with the number and the polarity (+). When you finally get to where the load is, label the wire at the load. At the load, there will be another wire that will be the NEG or (-) lead. Label it with the same number as the POS lead but add a (-) or NEG tape. Hand over hand this wire the same way as the POS wire. There may be terminal blocks in the run also. It should terminate a NEG bus bar that the battery NEG lead should be attached to. Here is where it can get dicey as there are several ways to ground the battery and the NEG bus, some go to an engine, some to a ground plate, some have an isolated ground. On your elevation drawing of the boat, indicate the location of all the terminal blocks you encounter and the "run" of the wire. Do this with all your circuits using a different number schema for each circuit. Laminate and store/post the elevation and panel drawing as near the panel if possible.
Some problems you may encounter: More than one wire connected to a terminal block. Pick one and follow it to where it goes number it with original number and if you have them a letter tape, e.g., "1A" and indicate the new number on both the panel drawing and the elevation drawing. Dead ended or clipped wires. Disconnect these and remove the wire, be careful, some of these that appear to be clipped may be just broken from the terminal lug.

After you know what you've got, you can now decide what to do about bad switches, wire, dangling unloomed wires, etc.

Hope this helps.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I've rewired my boat over the past year and a half starting with the main power... batts, switches and charging sources. I got a bit of help from JR Energy, but most of it is pretty straightforward. The most difficult aspect is to organize all the wiring neatly... especially the very heavy cables for the main batts. Depending on how many devices there are you will have to probably physically install the devices and then work out the proper wire and cable lengths.

Make a drawing before and after... both a schematic and an actual wiring plan show the color of the wires on wire plan along with their gauge. Most likely you will need some proper buss bars to connect lots of wires... like all the negs etc.

Use adhesive heat shrink on all new crimp on connections. Make sure that for the very large and short runs... you properly align the connectors.

Plan for your electrical use/needs. DO a calc of your loads... and so forth to size your batts and charging devices. And make sure your wires are properly sized. Longer the run the thicker the wire for the same load. Better oversized than undersized. Install the proper size and type fuse to protect the wire and the device it is connected to. If you need spread sheets for these calcs PM me.

Once you have all the "mains" taken care of... the batts, and charging sources... you can tackle the load side... and upgrade the distribution panel, breakers and or fuses, and then the nav instruments data wiring such as NEMA network and engine instrumentation.

When you are done you will have a perfectly wired boat, well documented with spare fuses etc. and you won't be stratching your head looking a mess of spaghetti.

I am not an electrician but I did it and you can too!

jef
sv shiva


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## timabram (Jul 5, 2007)

Tiler pilots and VHF should not be wired through the fuse pannel at all even to the common bus !

They should be wired directly to the batteries. If they need to be fused they should be fused separately. 

Instruments are often wired directly too (even if there's a switch that says instruments).... matter of opinion as to the benefits of this. 

Every one seems to be giving good advice generaly. But some basic pointers to remember when wiring.

Crimp your terminals ... dont solder. sloder embrittles with time and as boats vibrate a bit the terminals will crack. (only a general guideline somethings have to be soldered)

Don't just up the wire guage for no good reason. The reason one contributor lost power was due to voltage drop over the cable run length. Get a table and size the wires correctly for the length (voltage drop) and current they will carry. Oversize cables if anything goes wrong means over heating. (that's what the fuses are for - to protect the cables and not the equipment)

Don't run cables through bilges or engine spaces if avoidable unless you can put them into good conduit properly fixed.

LABLE EVERYTING.

Fasten cables back with marine grade clips (ordinary ones rust quick!)

Keep it tidy .... claer and understandable for the next poor schmuck who has to try and unravel what you've done. 

DRAW A DIAGRAM of what you did ... saves so much time later on.


Good Luck


Tim Abram BSc. Hons. 1st Class GMRINA. 
Yacht Surveyor par excellence !


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Tiler pilots and VHF should not be wired through the fuse pannel at all even to the common bus !

They should be wired directly to the batteries. "

Got to disagree, Tim. While many high power radio (ham HF, SSB) makers may recommend wiring directly to the batteries, and fusing BOTH lines directly at the batteries, that's not always a good idea. Yes, it can prevent some situations where a ground loop in a complicated setup can mess up the radio.

But if the connections from the distribution/fuse panel to the batteries are robust, there's no reason for running aything back to the battery. It will still get damn near full voltage from the distribution panel--if those distribution cables were sized properly. And since the panel is usually close to the starter and alternator, it usually doesn't take a long run to extend those heavy cables to it.

When things start to have "extra" wiring runs, that make long runs through engine spaces, perhaps chafing, always unseen...I feel there is simply more opportunity for those extra runs to cause extra problems.

The only other reason to go to the battery is to swamp out RFI problems, but there are other better ways to deal with those when and if they happen. And by running to the main panel, I can be sure that when the main switch says ALL OFF, everything is OFF. 

The only thing I'd advocate going direct on, might be the bilge pump. Since that's the one thing that needs to be on all the time--or risk losing the boat.


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## gregpowell (Mar 19, 2007)

*Rewiring*

7tiger7 - I am almost done rewiring my catalina 27. Same situation as yours. I relocated the panel to a box I built that sits on the starboard side at the front of the quarterberth where the deck joins the hull. It rests on the liner shelf nicely and is out of the way and high up. All the factory wiring for the boat actually collects there anyway as you will see if you lay down on the starboard quarterberth and look up into where the shorepower enters the boat. See the diagram previously posted. It is correct. The factory wires run from there into the engine compartment and then through that wood bulkhead you were complaining about and then to the factory panel at the foot of the sink. I just disconnected them one by one, pulled them out back into the engine compartment, labelled them, connected longer wire to them and ran them over to the new panel under the quarterberth and up behind the liner, drilling holes underneath the new box for the wire to enter. I removed an entire box full of useless wire in the process from long ago removed accessories.
My batteries are in the port lazarette and so I widened the opening for what was the DC panel and put in there instead a battery switch panel ( my battery switch was underneath the port settee). This shortens the battery cable runs down to one or two feet from what was as much as ten feet.
I put in two 6 position panels in the new box so that I can have separate on-off switches for VHF, stereo, bilge pump,etc.
I use a Brother p-touch labelling unit with the industrial tape. It never wears off. If you label you don't have to worry about different color wire and it is much easier to work with later for anyone working with the wiring.
You had a question about which was positive. All the factory wires are positive except the one ground. The fuse and switches all work on the positive wires. Power goes from the common position on the battery switch to the DC panel. It then runs to each item in turn that you turn on via the panel switches. All the electrical loads have to somehow be connected to the ground which is basically the engine block and anything connected to the negative battery terminals. I put a couple of bus bars in, one between the two negative battery terminals and one in the DC panel box and connected them together and to the engine block so there is a solid interconnected grounding system.
New panels have lights to indicate if the switch is on so those lights have to be powered and that is why the panels have a ground to them.
Good luck with your project!


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

Tim - its scary to think that you are a surveyor and think that oversize wire creates heat



timabram said:


> Tiler pilots and VHF should not be wired through the fuse pannel at all even to the common bus !
> 
> They should be wired directly to the batteries. If they need to be fused they should be fused separately.
> 
> ...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm with you, Burton. I certainly hope he meant to say oversized fuses can cause problems, and not oversized wire. Scary!! The only drawbacks to oversized wire is difficulty putting it thru confined spaces and the weight problem. But the weight problem brought up earlier on this thread is insignificant -- if #10 wire adds to the weight where #12 would do, leave out a clean pair of socks and 2 pair of BVD's from your duffel! That will make up for it!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Generally.... oversized wiring reduces heat... adds weight though... There is a lot wrong with what Tim posted... and that isn't even counting the spelling and grammatical errors... 

Oversized fuses or breakers are a big problem and they should be matched to the loads on the circuit. Leaving the wire a bit oversized is a cheap way to leave some wiggle room for future expansion too. 

Instruments and tiller pilots should be run through a breaker on the DC side panel. Everything should be run through either a fuse or a breaker. There's absolutely no sense in powering instruments or the tiller pilot if you're at anchor... 

Solder doesn't embrittle with time... but soldered wires are stiff and fatigue due to vibration... and then break from fatigue.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Soldered connections do have the extra problem of galvanic breakdowns, from the added mixed metals. And cold solder joints sometimes don't show up for years.

Which is not to say soldering is a bad thing--but like crimps or any other way of joining wires, it has to be done right to prevent trouble down the line.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

One by one, I would wire a "shotgun" supply to the functions that you are missing to get them working, then disable the existing non-supplies and tape over the ends that are there already.

Use relatively heavy wire.

It will work.

It's not the most elegant of solutions, but it will regain the functions, and you can leave Catalina to their maze. Make sure the old ends are disconnected and taped off.

EVERYTHING MUST BE FUSED.

I had one circuit that wasn't fused on the boat... that was a while ago. It was the only fire I have ever had on the ship.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

And a good quality crimped connection is easier for the majority of sailors to make. Also, even if a connection is soldered, it needs to be physically connected in some way other than the solder itself, since the solder joint may heat up under overload enough for the wires to separate unless otherwise secured.


hellosailor said:


> Soldered connections do have the extra problem of galvanic breakdowns, from the added mixed metals. And cold solder joints sometimes don't show up for years.
> 
> Which is not to say soldering is a bad thing--but like crimps or any other way of joining wires, it has to be done right to prevent trouble down the line.


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