# Snow Birds?



## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

When we RV'd full time we were snowbirds. We spent our winters down in the Southern California desert, our summers in the Eastern Sierras. While it was too hot to stay in the desert and too cold to be up in the mountains, twice a year we would stay at some in between place.

Obviously, on the east coast of the United States, snowbirds spend their winters in Florida or the Bahamas. 

Where do snowbirds spend their summers safe from the Hurricane season?


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

They migrate back north.


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## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

Seaduction said:


> They migrate back north.


Yup, it was that way our first year as "snow birds"... No one would give up their northern spots.

So.. when they migrate back north, do they just go to Jacksonville, FL or do they go further north to Greenland?


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

My sister in law's parents would go back and forth from south Florida and the Bahamas in the winter, and spend the summers on Kent Island in Maryland.

I've lived in all of those places, and that's not a bad way to do it.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

never been a snowbird,never hope to be one. i just slowly relocated until i am not cold in night time. lol. 
snow?? 
is for someone else.
i left that stuff in 1971. 
not gonna ever go back.
isnt healthy for some of us to be in coldville.
there are many places where snow is never seen except in pictures or on distant mountain tops, far far far away....those are my favorite places.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Pearson796 said:


> Yup, it was that way our first year as "snow birds"... No one would give up their northern spots.
> 
> So.. when they migrate back north, do they just go to Jacksonville, FL or do they go further north to Greenland?


If you're talking about the snowbirds in boats, then I would venture to say that they go back to their home ports in the north.


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## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

Seaduction said:


> If you're talking about the snowbirds in boats, then I would venture to say that they go back to their home ports in the north.


Home ports in the north? Greenland? North Pole? Iceland?


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

I'm not really sure I know what you mean by hurricane season , because we don't have one . I got to know a guy a few years back , he was from Co. Every winter and some times in the summer he would get the slip right next to me (that's Long Beach Ca.) I don't think he had any hurricanes out in Co. to escape . He did say it got a little chilly. So to answer your question Long Beach Ca. We do get what are called the Santa Anna's . It's a hot wind that blows off shore , usually starts the end of Oct . It can freshen to 40 kts .


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

As many options as there are boats. 
There is a large contingent that stores their boat in various yards in Fl and Ga over summer and drive home north.
There are many who cruise north to marinas or homes from the Carolinas to Maine for the summer.
There are also full time cruisers who head north to various places from the Carinas to Maine.
There are also some cruisers doing the Great Loop heading north to the Great Lakes via the Hudson River and Erie Canal.

Thousands of options.


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## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

Markwesti said:


> I'm not really sure I know what you mean by hurricane season , because we don't have one . I got to know a guy a few years back , he was from Co. Every winter and some times in the summer he would get the slip right next to me (that's Long Beach Ca.) I don't think he had any hurricanes out in Co. to escape . He did say it got a little chilly. So to answer your question Long Beach Ca. We do get what are called the Santa Anna's . It's a hot wind that blows off shore , usually starts the end of Oct . It can freshen to 40 kts .


In this neck of the woods it is all but guaranteed that we will have a hurricane at least once a year.

I've been through a couple in my lifetime living in N. Myrtle Beach, SC. I was in Charlotte, NC the year that HUGO came so far inland and left a path of destruction far from shore.

So when I say hurricane season, I mean to say that I don't want to be in the Gulf of Mexico, The Keys, or anywhere south of Virginia between June and November. Not to say Hurricanes can't hit north of Virgina, but I'd feel safer further north.

Our plan is to try and spend the summer of 2015 in Maine, but I'm still researching the plausibility.


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## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

xort said:


> As many options as there are boats.
> There is a large contingent that stores their boat in various yards in Fl and Ga over summer and drive home north.
> There are many who cruise north to marinas or homes from the Carolinas to Maine for the summer.
> There are also full time cruisers who head north to various places from the Carinas to Maine.
> ...


I'm not sure that we are going to continue on the loop once we hit New York. The situation with having to step and unstep the mast is very costly.

That being said, I want to cross wake. We would love to spend the summer of 2015 on The Great Lakes but we would come back out the Erie Canal and not down the river system again. But that is a whole different thread.

I really like the idea of Maine though.

Are there good anchorages up there?


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## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

I'm looking at the Marina situation in Maine and there isn't much up there. What is up there looks more geared toward people with deep pockets.

Are there many good places in Maine that are friendly to living off the anchor?

We would like to find someplace in the NE so spend a couple of months.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Pearson796 said:


> I'm looking at the Marina situation in Maine and there isn't much up there. What is up there looks more geared toward people with deep pockets.
> 
> Are there many good places in Maine that are friendly to living off the anchor?
> 
> We would like to find someplace in the NE so spend a couple of months.


In very general terms, in venturing anywhere north of the Chesapeake in the summer season, brace yourself for some serious sticker shock regarding marinas, moorings, and so on... Those around here who've been railing against the new mooring field in Beaufort, for instance, or who might believe they should be able to anchor anywhere they please, for as long as they want, well... chances are they might not as thoroughly enjoy cruising LIS or New England during the summer season, as those of us more inclined to accept certain 'realities'.... 

Not to suggest it can't be done, of course, the coast of Maine alone affords a virtually limitless array of anchorages and possibilities. New England in the summer and fall has to rate as one of world's finest cruising grounds, but it's our equivalent of the Med in terms of also being the playground of many of great wealth, so in certain regards can be a bit of a challenge to those of us cruising on a tighter budget...

If keeping your costs to a minimum is of primary concern, you might consider venturing beyond Down East, up into New Brunswick, or across to Nova Scotia... Absolutely marvelous cruising ground, wonderful people, far fewer boats (and no lobster pots), shoreside access less restricted, and your dollars will stretch a bit further... Cruising in a modest boat, you'll still be welcomed everywhere you go up there, sadly the same cannot be said through much of the NE beyond NYC...

Still, summer cruising doesn't get much better than Maine... as long as you don't mind the 'occasional' spot of fog, of course...


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> In very general terms, in venturing anywhere north of the Chesapeake in the summer season, brace yourself for some serious sticker shock regarding marinas, moorings, and so on... Those around here who've been railing against the new mooring field in Beaufort, for instance, or who might believe they should be able to anchor anywhere they please, for as long as they want, well... chances are they might not as thoroughly enjoy cruising LIS or New England during the summer season, as those of us more inclined to accept certain 'realities'....
> 
> Not to suggest it can't be done, of course, the coast of Maine alone affords a virtually limitless array of anchorages and possibilities. New England in the summer and fall has to rate as one of world's finest cruising grounds, but it's our equivalent of the Med in terms of also being the playground of many of great wealth, so in certain regards can be a bit of a challenge to those of us cruising on a tighter budget...
> 
> ...


It's very crowded and expensive now up here in New Brunswick.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Yes, the marinas are expensive in the North East, but there are still places to anchor. There are some that anchor all summer long in Beacon, New York. I met an author who anchored there for a year and a half. though his boat was on the shore for the winter, not a recommended thing. And the Mooring field there is quite inexpensive, but they have NO services and you have to supply your own mooring. The only bathroom has no running water and is a composting toilet, and not a liquid separating one at that. Joe the Cobbler stopped there for a night. You are a quick walk to the train station (literally a 2 min walk) and can be in the city in about an hour and a half. Or walk up the street to a very nice town with lots of antique stores, art galleries, world class modern art museum, and restaurants as well as a small grocery store. Really beautiful spot to spend a few days, weeks or months. Historic homes, great rock climbing, hiking and other actives. We were fairly well protected from Sandy and Irene, though we did get some flooding. 

I am sure there are areas like that further up the coast. Lots of them you would just have to find, not going to be mentioned in any cruising guide, as there is no advertizing money in these kinds of spots. Just remember the further north you go the more pleasant the weather and the lower the risk of hurricanes. If you don't have a "home port" to end up in, just cruse up till you find someplace comfortable for you. Even places that are home to the "rich and famous" can be done on a budget so long as you don't stay too long. Cape Code, New York City, Montauk, Newport all can be visited without spending a ton of money. They are not cheap, so just don't stay long but they all have sites worth seeing.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

We have done the North/South thing, starting in the tropics, sailing North then returning to the islands. I never thought I would say this, but, I think we may change our flag and forget about going back down.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

You could spend the remainder of your natural life just exploring all the places there is to explore in Chesapeake Bay. I've lived here most of my life and have been on the water since age 10 and there are still lots of places I have yet to explore. It's a great place to sail from April through October, but then it get brutally cold and it's time to head south for the Florida Keys and beyond. Winters in the keys are wonderful!

Gary


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## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

miatapaul said:


> Yes, the marinas are expensive in the North East, but there are still places to anchor. There are some that anchor all summer long in Beacon, New York. I met an author who anchored there for a year and a half. though his boat was on the shore for the winter, not a recommended thing. And the Mooring field there is quite inexpensive, but they have NO services and you have to supply your own mooring. The only bathroom has no running water and is a composting toilet, and not a liquid separating one at that. Joe the Cobbler stopped there for a night. You are a quick walk to the train station (literally a 2 min walk) and can be in the city in about an hour and a half. Or walk up the street to a very nice town with lots of antique stores, art galleries, world class modern art museum, and restaurants as well as a small grocery store. Really beautiful spot to spend a few days, weeks or months. Historic homes, great rock climbing, hiking and other actives. We were fairly well protected from Sandy and Irene, though we did get some flooding.
> 
> I am sure there are areas like that further up the coast. Lots of them you would just have to find, not going to be mentioned in any cruising guide, as there is no advertizing money in these kinds of spots. Just remember the further north you go the more pleasant the weather and the lower the risk of hurricanes. If you don't have a "home port" to end up in, just cruse up till you find someplace comfortable for you. Even places that are home to the "rich and famous" can be done on a budget so long as you don't stay too long. Cape Code, New York City, Montauk, Newport all can be visited without spending a ton of money. They are not cheap, so just don't stay long but they all have sites worth seeing.


We don't have a home port and are still trying to figure out what our USCG listed port is going to be.

I've been looking into Maine and they don't appear to be "off the hook" friendly in areas that are close to anything.

I look on Google earth and it is clear that there are lots of anchorages in remote locations where one would have to have a great deal of provisions to stay for any length of time because they are not near anything at all.

All we know are our short term plans at the moment.

Beyond next winter and into the spring we are clueless where we are going.


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## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

vega1860 said:


> We have done the North/South thing, starting in the tropics, sailing North then returning to the islands. I never thought I would say this, but, I think we may change our flag and forget about going back down.


We didn't learn about the condition of the ICW or the possible closure of "The Loop" until after we bought our boat.

It wasn't our first choice to buy a boat on the Pacific, but NOW, I don't think we would have minded it at all.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

petmac said:


> It's very crowded and expensive now up here in New Brunswick.


Oooops, sorry about that, Peter...

Oh well, at least I got to see it before it all went to hell up there... 

I don't think you have too much to worry about, at least for the time being... Every time I get up to Maine, I'm always amazed at the sort of line of demarcation that Mt Desert and Schoodic appear to represent, and how few boats venture east of there... And, of those who might, very few make it beyond Roque Island/Jonesport...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Pearson796 said:


> We didn't learn about the condition of the ICW or the possible closure of "The Loop" until after we bought our boat.
> 
> It wasn't our first choice to buy a boat on the Pacific, but NOW, I don't think we would have minded it at all.


What is this present "condition" of the ICW that you're referring to? What is your draft?

There is no other coastline of such length in the entire world better suited to doing the Snowbird Routine, than the East coast of the US. No one in their right mind would assert that the West coast is friendlier', or better suited, to sailing north and south with the seasons in a small sailing yacht, than is the Atlantic seaboard, with its multiplicity of estuaries, inland and protected waterways, and evenly-spaced harbors...


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## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> What is this present "condition" of the ICW that you're referring to? What is your draft?
> 
> There is no other coastline of such length in the entire world better suited to doing the Snowbird Routine, than the East coast of the US. No one in their right mind would assert that the West coast is friendlier', or better suited, to sailing north and south with the seasons in a small sailing yacht, than is the Atlantic seaboard, with its multiplicity of estuaries, inland and protected waterways, and evenly-spaced harbors...


We have a 5' draft and are reading news articles concerning the problems with the ICW and how the commercial companies were saying they at least a grounding a day with barges.

I've talked with a couple of loopers here at this Marina who said they had issues on the ICW.

I was trying to find the article I read that talked about Commercial traffic that had to bypass the ICW and go into open waters because the ICW was so shallow. I was trying to find it because I know that some "know it all" is going to want to argue and say there is nothing wrong with the ICW.

They don't dredge it, if you get caught on the ICW at low tide you'll be laying on your side for 6 hours waiting for it to come back up, the channels are poorly marked or not marked at all in areas....

Concerning the Atlantic vs The Pacific coast, this is what a licensed Captain told me. I've never sailed anything other than a Hobie cat that was beach launched on the Atlantic, so I have to assume he knows what he is talking about:
_
The west coast isn't that bad for navigation really. The Pacific is a
little rougher than the Atlantic, but the east coast has way more hazards._

This article from 2004 talks about the Bush Administration killing the funding for dredging on the ICW and based on what I keep reading, that funding has not been returned by the current administration.

If it was this bad in 2004, how much worse is it after 10 years of neglect?

That being said, I don't have a lot of navigation or boating experience and the idea of going up the ICW doesn't sound relaxing or fun at all to me.

Further Reading: Intracoastal Waterway needs dredging to stay open [Archive] - SCDUCKS.COM Forums

_Intracoastal Waterway needs dredging to stay open to commerce
By BRIAN HICKS - The (Charleston) Post and Courier
Related Content

* External Link The Post and Courier | Charleston SC, News, Sports, Entertainment

CHARLESTON, S.C. --
A few years ago, Capt. Jim Donnelly didn't think the Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway could get any worse.

His tugboat was running aground regularly as the federal government allowed the waterway to silt in, ignoring its own law that requires a 12-foot channel at low tide.

Then, on a trip through Charleston a few months back, Donnelly saw just how much worse it's gotten.

"Just north of the Ben Sawyer Bridge, I saw people wading across the Intracoastal Waterway," Donnelly said recently.

In the past three years, commercial traffic on the waterway has dried up even more. Many captains won't travel the route anymore and consider it closed south of Morehead City, N.C.

Some of the larger recreational boats that travel the coast have been forced offshore into the more dangerous, and unpredictable Atlantic.

Now, after six straight years of budget cuts, the Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway is barely more than a third the depth it should be. Unless something changes soon, the East Coast's maritime highway could become the nautical equivalent of a dirt road, grounding $10 billion in commercial and recreational commerce and cutting off some of Charleston's supply of fuel, building materials and transit-boat business.

"It's getting worse out there," said Benjamin "Bos" Smith, operations manager of Stevens Towing. "It's like having a road - if you don't maintain it, you can't use it."

*Since 2001, the Bush administration has slashed most money to the waterway by using a funding formula that doesn't consider recreational traffic.*

Counting only commercial traffic, much of which has been forced offshore by shoddy conditions in "The Ditch," the waterway doesn't qualify for dredging and maintenance money.

Danny Pelletier, a deckhand on the Island Express stands at the end of barges as they are beached on a barrier island in Lockwoods Folly after the tug they were attached to ran aground.

The waterway, which is made up of natural and man-made channels, is open to the ocean at countless inlets and requires constant dredging to fight off the accretion and erosion caused by the tides. A lack of funding leads to shallower channels, which lead to less traffic, which proves the argument for cutting the money. It is the classic Catch-22, say the tug operators and officials with the Army Corps of Engineers, which is responsible for the waterway.

"There's just no way we can compete with the Mississippi River," said Jimmy Hadden, the Corps of Engineers local project manager for the waterway. "Basically, we've been getting caretaker money. I've probably got a 4-foot controlling depth."

That means at low tide, there are spots along the channel that are 4 feet deep. Corps officials have estimated that the Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway, which runs 1,200 miles from Norfolk, Va., to Miami, needs more than $100 million in work.

The limited work that has been done on the waterway since 2001 has come from congressional additions to the budgets. For South Carolina, that has amounted to an average of about $800,000 a year. It's been enough to monitor the problem and spray for mosquitoes but little else. The last dredging project was done near Georgetown in 2005.

This year, the Senate version of the federal budget includes $3.8 million, and the House and the president's versions of the budget include $872,000.

Donnelly said that for his tug, the Island Express, to make a waterway trip, his barges must have shallower drafts than they used to. A few years ago, the tug could make the trip up the coast with barges that had a 9-foot draft. Now, they can only load to a 7.5-foot draft.

"That's a big difference when you get paid by the ton," Donnelly said.

Even if South Carolina can get money to make a dent in the dredging, it does little good without other states getting the same. The Corps of Engineers says that the waterway needs to be considered one project, instead of making each state fend for itself.

Georgia hasn't had any dredging in about six years, according to waterway supporters, and behind Jekyll Island, the channel is mostly mud at low tide. If not for a military fuel barge that still makes the run, pushing mud the whole way, the waterway would probably be gone there.

Of course, South Carolina is not far behind.

If something doesn't change soon, Smith said, it may not be just his tugboats and other commercial traffic that can't get through.

"We only go through the waterway behind Breach Inlet on a rising tide," Smith said. "It's getting so bad that before long, a sailboat won't be able to get through. We've just got to ask ourselves: Is this a valuable resource or not?"
Information_

Here is another article saying basically the same thing from 2007

_After six straight years of reduced federal funding for the waterway's maintenance, several portions of it have filled with silt, grounding several large boats and discouraging commercial and recreational marine traffic._


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Pearson796 said:


> We have a 5' draft and are reading news articles concerning the problems with the ICW and how the commercial companies were saying they at least a grounding a day with barges.
> 
> I've talked with a couple of loopers here at this Marina who said they had issues on the ICW.


Being concerned about "a couple" compared to the thousands who take it each year tells me that you're over thinking this. What are their reasons? Masts too high? Draft too deep? They just hated the motoring they had to do? The ICW isn't for everyone for all sorts of reasons. Some prefer sailing more than motoring so they travel on the outside. Others hate waiting around for bridges to open. Some don't like to deal with the large power boats in narrow channels.



Pearson796 said:


> I was trying to find the article I read that talked about Commercial traffic that had to bypass the ICW and go into open waters because the ICW was so shallow. I was trying to find it because I know that some "know it all" is going to want to argue and say there is nothing wrong with the ICW.
> 
> They don't dredge it, if you get caught on the ICW at low tide you'll be laying on your side for 6 hours waiting for it to come back up, the channels are poorly marked or not marked at all in areas.......


Don't compare the needs of commercial vessels to recreational boats. Again: over thinking. Some commercial vessels need deep channels. In the Chesapeake the commercial channels are at least 45 feet deep. If those channels went away, sure the commercial traffic would stop but it wouldn't impact any recreational boat, most of which don't consistently sail within the channels anyway.

And if you find yourself grounded, what's the problem waiting for the tide? Happens all the time.

There is tons of support for boaters traveling the ICW and the The Loop. Local knowledge, flotillas of people who go together to help newbies on their first trip, radio nets, etc.

I understand that you're trying to get as much information as possible before sticking your toe in, I'm the same way. I'm sure that I don't "know it all" but I've sailed part of the ICW and have friends who take it every year and I think I "know enough" to say that before you talk yourself into a lather, I would suggest that you try researching the folks who are out there and happily experiencing the bi-annual commute with no problems that can't be overcome. Don't just pay attention to the negatives without proper context.

St. Augustine is a popular stop for snow birds and has an extremely strong support system for assistance, local knowledge, etc.

St Augustine Cruiser's Net

Mark Doyle and his wife are a great ICW resource. They sell cruising guides to the ICW and on my trip provided a lot of helpful information to us concerning inlets, marinas, etc. We had their book open in the cockpit and received almost daily emails from them as they were following our trip up the coast.

If you Google "Wally Moran ICW", he has all sorts of support for new ICW cruisers. One of his videos:






And his ICW blog: LiveBloggin' the ICW


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

New England is the snowbirds place to be during hurricane season, IMO. However, we're not immune. This past season was the first out of the past four that I didn't haul for a near miss. I think it was Earl that really had the potential to be the next big one, but it just grazed us.

Nevertheless, for a cruiser, you learn of these coming at least a week off and you can escape to either the Hudson or Maine and there are literally hundreds of hurricane holes between.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

The cost to step the mast at both ends of the Erie Canal on a boat your size is much, much, much, much less than the additional cost in fuel, provisions, and general boat wear and tear, of continuing up the coast,then up the St. Lawrence.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Pearson796 said:


> They don't dredge it, if you get caught on the ICW at low tide you'll be laying on your side for 6 hours waiting for it to come back up, the channels are poorly marked or not marked at all in areas....


Donna is right, you've been given some wrong and outdated information by some folks who don't know what they're talking about...

Sure, there are some tricky/trouble spots here and there, but the ICW will pose few difficulties for anyone with 5' draft, and who's actually paying attention


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