# Origo Alcohol Stovetop Alternatives



## FunkyJunk (Oct 14, 2018)

My boat came equipped with a Kenyon kerosene oven and stovetop, and I'd like to get rid of it and replace it with something else. I like the Origo units, but apparently they're all discontinued and nobody else seems to sell a unit that works off of denatured alcohol as these do. (Perhaps they're outlawed?) I don't really want to find space for or invest in a propane locker. Does anyone have any good ideas for this? TIA

p.s. Attempts to find a used Origo have not yet turned up anything.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

We did the same thing with the Kenyon stove on our old boat. We ended up just replacing it with a couple of cheap portable butane stoves. Butane has far more heat output than alcohol, and the fuel canisters are readily available. They are small enough that if one leaks there won't be enough fuel released to be hazardous. The added advantage is that we could take the stoves off the boat and cook on the dock, the beach, or wherever. And if you don't need them you can put them away and clear up counter space in the galley.

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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Wow. I just searched on eBay. The price of used ones has really jumped since they've been discontinued!

I got my Origo 1500 single burner for $80 when I bought it in 2014.

Here's one going for $250:
Origo 1500 Single Burner - Lightly Used


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I will give you my Origo when you pry it from my cold dead hands 

I have all kinds of conspiracy theories about what happened there, but none are supported by evidence so I will keep them to myself.

You could check out Trangia stoves. Not as good for marine use as Origo's but nice little alcohol stoves non the less. Not sure if they have a model that would be suitable for your needs. I have one I use for sea kayaking and it is hot! Boils a liter of water in about 4 minutes.


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## FunkyJunk (Oct 14, 2018)

Minnesail said:


> Here's one going for $250:
> Origo 1500 Single Burner - Lightly Used


Thanks! I'm really looking for at least the two-burner 3000 model (if not the oven unit 6000 model), but I appreciate you looking.

Edit: I do have a one-burner electric induction cooktop from the previous owner but I'm leery of how much juice they might require while at anchor. I only have one house battery and one starter battery.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Given that they're asking more-than-new prices for a used one, I can't imagine what the oven combo would go for when one comes up for sale.

I really hope someone steps in and starts making a similar product.


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## FunkyJunk (Oct 14, 2018)

SchockT said:


> We did the same thing with the Kenyon stove on our old boat. We ended up just replacing it with a couple of cheap portable butane stoves.


This looks like a reasonable solution. How long do you find the butane canisters last?

This dual-burner butane/propane cooktop looks like it might fit the bill. It's certainly cheap enough.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

FunkyJunk said:


> This looks like a reasonable solution. How long do you find the butane canisters last?
> 
> This dual-burner butane/propane cooktop looks like it might fit the bill. It's certainly cheap enough.


We found one can of butane would last for a weekend of making coffee, breakfast and dinner, but we used the bbq a lot too. The fuel is cheap and easy to find.

I have never seen the 2 burner version, but it looks like 2 singles stuck together. The nice thing about the singles is if you only need one burner you can leave the other one stowed. They usually come in plastic carrying cases.

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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

I second the recommendation for the butane stove. They burn hotter than alcohol, and self contained and East to store. Fuel it readily available too.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Gladrags1 said:


> butane stove..... They burn hotter than alcohol, and self contained and East to store. Fuel it readily available too.


That is not strictly true. Typical Butane camp stove burners are typically around 4500 BTUs. Larger fixed type Butane stoves are in the 11,000 BTU range but burn through small cartridges extremely quickly. Origo stove burners are 6800 BTUs. Once you go the larger cartridges, they should be stored in the same way that you store propane. I had a butane stove two boats back and it was very expensive to operate which is how I became an Origo convert.

Jeff


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

If you go with butane you likely aren't doing much more than making coffee and hot dogs. Which is fine, if that's all you want, but if you go that route I would go with a high efficiency system like a Jetboil which uses an isobutane/propane blend. Much more efficient and will work in cooler weather.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Arcb said:


> If you go with butane you likely aren't doing much more than making coffee and hot dogs. Which is fine, if that's all you want, but if you go that route I would go with a high efficiency system like a Jetboil which uses an isobutane/propane blend. Much more efficient and will work in cooler weather.


Coffee and hotdogs? I'm not sure why you would say that. Anything you can cook on a propane or alcohol burner you can cook on a butane burner.

A friend of mine had an Origo stove on his boat, and I wasn't impressed with it. It seemed slow to boil water, and didn't regulate very well. Not sure what all the fuss is about them other than avoiding installing a propane system.

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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Not saying you can't cook other things on a butane stove. But if you try cooking 3 meals a day for 2 or 3 weeks on one I would expect to go through a pile of cartidges 

The rumpurs about Origo stoves not being hot are greatly exagerated. I have run several tests, with a timer in freezing temperatures. They are about the same speed as a propane stove of equivalent BTU rating


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

One thing I've noticed with my Origo is that when the fuel is running low it burns cooler. I think part of the thing about people thinking they're so slow might come from using one that's nearly empty.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

FunkyJunk said:


> This looks like a reasonable solution. How long do you find the butane canisters last


I ran some numbers on this.

According to manufacturers specifications.

A butane stove from West Marine on high will last roughly 1.25 hours on one canister. Origo 4 hours. So you are looking at 3 butane canisters per 1 liter Origo fill. Burn times on low are roughly proportionate.

1 gallon jug of methyl hydrate from Walmart or where ever costs about $8 USD. For a roughly equal burn time from butane you are looking at 12 canisters or approximately $63. Roughly 8 times the cost to operate.

The butane unit I looked at should theoretically boil an equal amount of water almost %25 faster than the Origo I compared it to. So if you are only boiling water, the butane stove should be only 6 times more expensive to operate.

However, you can't make bacon and eggs on high with either of these stoves without burning them, which to some degree mitigates the effect of the maximum potential heat output of that particular butane stove.

Split the difference and you could guesstimate the butane stove might be approximately %700 more expensive to operate, or on the conservative side you could guesstimate %600 more expensive.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

I have my old Origo in my garage. I guess I should NOT toss it?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Ninefingers said:


> I have my old Origo in my garage. I guess I should NOT toss it?


You might even have a buyer for it!

Certainly using disposable butane (or propane) canisters is not ideal. They are a compromise, just like Origos are.

If you expect to do a lot of cooking every day for weeks, then a more permanent solution would be worthwhile. If you don't want to put in a propane system, why not just run a propane hose to your transom and hang a propane tank on the pushpit? It doesn't look pretty, but it is simple and will give you plenty of fuel to play chef!

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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I have 2 17 lb tanks steel banded to my pushpit
And i feel good when i see them...


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I just wish I had the 3000 instead of the 6000. I have never fired up the oven and probably never will. I could use the oven space for something else but I'm not going to part with my 6000 unless I can find a 3000 to replace it with. When I first got the boat I thought it was huge.... now it feels cramped.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

A fellow compared a two burner propane camp stove with an Origo 2 burner. He found the Origo boiled a pot of water in 2/3rds the time it took for the propane stove. Didn't give the BTU output of the camp stove but bet it was not a large burner. Still not bad performance for the energy deficient alcohol.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

The camp bottles and canisters are covenience...and work well for their purpose.
When demand is higher you go to a different system


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

contrarian said:


> I just wish I had the 3000 instead of the 6000. I have never fired up the oven and probably never will.


I use a 14 inch cast iron dutch oven on my 5100. Can bake cake, cookies flat bread. Also use it for chillies, stews, curries. Sometimes carry stove and pot up to a picnic table to get the heat off the boat. Can simmer a chilli or stew all day on it.

Wife also does ham stuffed peppers, roasts and lasagna in it.


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## Jim_W (Jul 27, 2014)

Check ebay


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## Zemurray (Oct 28, 2018)

We didn’t have space for a propane locker and were lucky enough to buy an Origo 6000 before they discontinued. We cook 3 meals a day on it, including boiling water for coffee and even using a pressurized milk steamer. it takes no time at all and temp regulation for my fabulous cooking wife was no issue. She is VERY pleased with it. A gallon of alcohol last us a couple of weeks using it daily. 

If it were me, I’d hold out for a used one and if you give up on that I reckon I’d find a way to deal with the propane locker.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

SchockT said:


> . Butane has far more heat output than alcohol, and the fuel canisters are readily available. They are small enough that if one leaks there won't be enough fuel released to be hazardous.
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


(emphasize by me)
Are you sure about that? Haven't researched it but I remember numbers like "a half cup of gasoline has the same explosive power as two sticks of dynamite." Seems to me even a small canister of butane has more than that.

I wouldn't want to fill my boat with a gas-air mix and see what happens...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Zemurray said:


> We didn't have space for a propane locker and were lucky enough to buy an Origo 6000 before they discontinued. We cook 3 meals a day on it, including boiling water for coffee and even using a pressurized milk steamer. it takes no time at all and temp regulation for my fabulous cooking wife was no issue. She is VERY pleased with it. A gallon of alcohol last us a couple of weeks using it daily.
> 
> If it were me, I'd hold out for a used one and if you give up on that I reckon I'd find a way to deal with the propane locker.


Is that a personal opinion or a factual one.

I wouldn't want to risk that one?


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Arcb said:


> I use a 14 inch cast iron dutch oven


Which doubles as moveable ballast?


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## FunkyJunk (Oct 14, 2018)

Jim_W said:


> Check ebay


I'm looking for a 3000 or 6000 and there aren't any on eBay at the moment. Based on the prices I've seen for 1500s, I'm also guessing they go for exorbitant prices when they do show up. I'll be keeping my eyes open though.


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## overthehorizon (Apr 7, 2018)

It is amazing that decades ago, the U.S. Coast Guard deemed alcohol as being the only safe cook fuel to use on a boat...as the flame could be extinguished with water. They also said LPG was far to dangerous to use on a boat. For alcohol, they over looked the fact that the flame is very clear and at times hard to see and the flame is cold compared to mineral spirits or propane so one is exposed to a cooking flame for a much longer period than with the other fuels. When I had a boat with an alcohol stove, I quickly bought the burners for mineral spirits. They are the same threads so the alcohol burners were tossed in the trash and the mineral spirits burner screwed in. Still, alcohol had to be used to preheat the mineral spirits burners same as with the alcohol burners. So if you really want to regress with a stove fuel, unscrew your mineral spirits burners and screw in some new alcohol burners.....if they can be found.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

overthehorizon said:


> It is amazing that decades ago, the U.S. Coast Guard deemed alcohol as being the only safe cook fuel to use on a boat...as the flame could be extinguished with water. They also said LPG was far to dangerous to use on a boat. For alcohol, they over looked the fact that the flame is very clear and at times hard to see and the flame is cold compared to mineral spirits or propane so one is exposed to a cooking flame for a much longer period than with the other fuels. When I had a boat with an alcohol stove, I quickly bought the burners for mineral spirits. They are the same threads so the alcohol burners were tossed in the trash and the mineral spirits burner screwed in. Still, alcohol had to be used to preheat the mineral spirits burners same as with the alcohol burners. So if you really want to regress with a stove fuel, unscrew your mineral spirits burners and screw in some new alcohol burners.....if they can be found.


There are no mineral spirit burners for Origo stoves.

There is no need to preheat an Origo stove.

Different technology entirely than the old pressurised alcohol stoves you are referencing.


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## overthehorizon (Apr 7, 2018)

Thanks, Arcb. I just Googled it and it is quite different. Easy to use.


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## FunkyJunk (Oct 14, 2018)

FYI, I've come across the company "Compass24" based in Europe that seems to make a clone of the Origo 3000. (Perhaps they bought the rights to it, not sure) They don't have an option on their site to ship to the US, but I've sent them an email asking if they'd be willing to.
https://www.compass24.com/comfort/pantry-grill-oven/stoves/150526/alcohol-stove-double-burner

There's also a company called "CleanCook" out of Sweden that makes a similar item:
http://cleancook.com/productsstove-sales/


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

FunkyJunk said:


> FYI, I've come across the company "Compass24" based in Europe that seems to make a clone of the Origo 3000. (Perhaps they bought the rights to it, not sure) They don't have an option on their site to ship to the US, but I've sent them an email asking if they'd be willing to.
> https://www.compass24.com/comfort/pantry-grill-oven/stoves/150526/alcohol-stove-double-burner
> 
> There's also a company called "CleanCook" out of Sweden that makes a similar item:
> Products ? Cleancook Sweden AB


Compass24 looks like they're selling actual Origo products. Maybe they still have some left in stock. Or maybe they just haven't updated their website.

The CleanCook stove seems kinda cool, but it doesn't look like they sell directly. They seem to want to encourage entrepreneurship (and cleaner air) in developing countries. Wouldn't it be a thing if sailors ended up ordering Swedish stoves with parts manufactured in South Africa and assembled and marketed from Kenya.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

The one I have is a 4100. Is that a Cookmate?

Try here for a new one: Can$ http://www.hollandmarine.com/hmp/Catalog/index.html


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## FunkyJunk (Oct 14, 2018)

Ninefingers said:


> The one I have is a 4100. Is that a Cookmate?
> 
> Try here for a new one: Can$ HMP Online Catalog


Woooo Ninefingers!!! You found me one. I just ordered their last Origo 3000 in stock. Thank you.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

FunkyJunk said:


> Woooo Ninefingers!!! You found me one. I just ordered their last Origo 3000 in stock. Thank you.


Sailnet for the win!

You have to wonder, if Origo stoves are so popular, why did they stop production? They are pretty simple units so they must be cheap and easy to make.

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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

It appears that Dometic sold the Origo product line to Cleancook, which is an NGO selling a less expensive version into the 3rd world cheap. Dometic is still listed as a partner.

_Dometic Group President of Product Management and Innovation Mattias Nordin states: "We are very pleased that Dometic Group will remain an active partner in this important work through our continued supply of key materials to the stoves. CLEANCOOK Sweden AB has been established by former employees and I am proud that we have found an innovative solution to give these important products an opportunity to continue to address the global need even though they are not a core part of Dometic Group's business. I am also proud of Ted Örbrink and Robert Sagulin who have dedicated their knowledge, skills and efforts to establishing CLEANCOOK Sweden AB. I wish them great success."_

Sounds like Dometic is huge and Origo was tiny and not glitzy enough. I'll guess OEM sales had fallen to zero. I have not seen one on a new boat in a good while; the portable propane stoves are what I see in new small sailboats.

CLEANCOOK Sweden AB acquires Dometic?s alcohol fuel stove business division ? Cleancook Sweden AB

Unfortunately, that probably means limited parts availability. Since the canister for the new stoves is the same, it seems they will remain available.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

FunkyJunk said:


> Woooo Ninefingers!!! You found me one. I just ordered their last Origo 3000 in stock. Thank you.


Glad I could help! That place has some pretty good stuff when it comes to things no longer available elsewhere.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

pdqaltair said:


> It appears that Dometic sold the Origo product line to Cleancook, which is an NGO selling a less expensive version into the 3rd world cheap. Dometic is still listed as a partner.
> 
> _Dometic Group President of Product Management and Innovation Mattias Nordin states: "We are very pleased that Dometic Group will remain an active partner in this important work through our continued supply of key materials to the stoves. CLEANCOOK Sweden AB has been established by former employees and I am proud that we have found an innovative solution to give these important products an opportunity to continue to address the global need even though they are not a core part of Dometic Group's business. I am also proud of Ted Örbrink and Robert Sagulin who have dedicated their knowledge, skills and efforts to establishing CLEANCOOK Sweden AB. I wish them great success."_
> 
> ...


Every single new boat I seen at the boat shows over the years have had propane systems installed. I think that is a minimum expectation unless it is a stripped out race boat. Modern hull designs with their beam carried all the way aft have so much more space to install a propane locker than older designs it is a no-brainer. Of all my friend's with boats the only one I know of that came with an Origo from the factory was a 1990's Olson 911.

I think it is great that there is an NGO producing them for the 3rd world. Alcohol is cheap, renewable, and can even be made locally. If there is still a market for them in the Yachting community perhaps they will make a premium version to satisfy that market and use the extra profits to subsidize the charitable side of the operation.

Somehow I think that if there was still a significant market for them among yachties Dometic might have held on to the premium product rather than walking away from it altogether.

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## Zemurray (Oct 28, 2018)

pdqaltair said:


> It appears that Dometic sold the Origo product line to Cleancook, which is an NGO selling a less expensive version into the 3rd world cheap. Dometic is still listed as a partner.
> 
> _Dometic Group President of Product Management and Innovation Mattias Nordin states: "We are very pleased that Dometic Group will remain an active partner in this important work through our continued supply of key materials to the stoves. CLEANCOOK Sweden AB has been established by former employees and I am proud that we have found an innovative solution to give these important products an opportunity to continue to address the global need even though they are not a core part of Dometic Group's business. I am also proud of Ted Örbrink and Robert Sagulin who have dedicated their knowledge, skills and efforts to establishing CLEANCOOK Sweden AB. I wish them great success."_
> 
> ...


That press release was 2015. They were selling Origo/Dometic stoves new at major retailers until mid last year. I dont think Cleancooks ambition is to take over the Origo line and Dometic killed it off for some other reason.


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## FunkyJunk (Oct 14, 2018)

Zemurray said:


> That press release was 2015. They were selling Origo/Dometic stoves new at major retailers until mid last year. I dont think Cleancooks ambition is to take over the Origo line and Dometic killed it off for some other reason.


I think you're right. The Cleancook units seem to be built as simply and cheaply as possible to make them more affordable for those 3rd world countries. (no hinged lid, knob, etc.) I suspect Dometic just decided that the Origos weren't selling enough - maybe because they're so simple they seem to last forever.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

FunkyJunk said:


> I think you're right. The Cleancook units seem to be built as simply and cheaply as possible to make them more affordable for those 3rd world countries. (no hinged lid, knob, etc.) I suspect Dometic just decided that the Origos weren't selling enough - maybe because they're so simple they seem to last forever.


Obviously. OEM sales had to be zero. I don't think one has gone in a new or RV boat in 10 years.

I'm glad to see the basic idea going to good use. I'm happy with the Origo in my boat (F-24), but I barely use it. I'm sure if I were coming into this blind, a portable gas stove would be my choice. My cruising boat (PDQ cat) had propane, and that is the right answer for active cruising.

I find it interesting that Project Gaia quotes bio-ethanol at ~ $3/gallon, whereas you pay $16-20 around here.


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

One for sale here:

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/bpo/d/bainbridge-island-origo-3000-for-sale/7082379475.html


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> (emphasize by me)
> Are you sure about that? Haven't researched it but I remember numbers like "a half cup of gasoline has the same explosive power as two sticks of dynamite." Seems to me even a small canister of butane has more than that.
> 
> I wouldn't want to fill my boat with a gas-air mix and see what happens...


Butane has an explosive range of 1.86%-8.41% so wouldn't take much, but that's pretty irrelevant. As butane has a MW of 58 is heavier than air so would fill up the bottom of the boat first. At some point between 100% butane at the bottom, and 100% air at the top is a interface at the explosive concentration. Any ignition source there (like a burning stove..) would cause a deflagration/explosion through boat. Would one canister certainly kill you? No. You might "only" get horrible, disfiguring 2nd degree burns, and set your boat on fire.. I've seen plenty of burn injuries so personally I don't mess with this. Even if the chance of a leak is low, the consequences are pretty unpleasant.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Scandium said:


> Butane has an explosive range of 1.86%-8.41% so wouldn't take much, but that's pretty irrelevant.


I did not know these numbers but the size of that range is pretty frightening. As you say, if your bottle empties into the boat you have 100% at the bottom and zero several feet higher. So more than 6% concentration gradient must cover quite a bit of space. Yikes!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Scandium said:


> Butane has an explosive range of 1.86%-8.41% so wouldn't take much, but that's pretty irrelevant. As butane has a MW of 58 is heavier than air so would fill up the bottom of the boat first. At some point between 100% butane at the bottom, and 100% air at the top is a interface at the explosive concentration. Any ignition source there (like a burning stove..) would cause a deflagration/explosion through boat. Would one canister certainly kill you? No. You might "only" get horrible, disfiguring 2nd degree burns, and set your boat on fire.. I've seen plenty of burn injuries so personally I don't mess with this. Even if the chance of a leak is low, the consequences are pretty unpleasant.


You are referring to the limits of flammability. The fuel/air mixture has to be between those two numbers in order to be flammable. Any less or any more and it will not ignite. That is quite a narrow band, and similar to propane.

The point of the small canisters is that there is relatively small amount in them. If one had a slow leak it would likely dissipate without ever reaching that narrow flammable band. You are correct, it is heavier than air, and will settle to the floor, or bilge. There is not enough gas in the canister to fill the boat up like you describe. Even if the gas found that perfect mixture down in the bilge it would still need to find an ignition source. Not many ignition sources in the bilge! And let's say that perfect air fuel mixture did manage to find an ignition source, it might blow a floor board up or something, but it is not likely to give you disfiguring burns like you suggest.

If there was gas accumulating in anywhere near dangerous concentrations in the occupied zone the smell would be so strong it would make your eyes water!

All fuels have some risk in a confined space. Pure alcohol burns invisible, so you could have a fire and not even realize it until you are burned or other things in the boat catch fire. Even if you have a propane locker, solenoid etc there is still the possibility of a leak going undetected.

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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

Scandium said:


> Butane has an explosive range of 1.86%-8.41% so wouldn't take much, but that's pretty irrelevant. As butane has a MW of 58 is heavier than air so would fill up the bottom of the boat first. At some point between 100% butane at the bottom, and 100% air at the top is a interface at the explosive concentration. Any ignition source there (like a burning stove..) would cause a deflagration/explosion through boat. Would one canister certainly kill you? No. You might "only" get horrible, disfiguring 2nd degree burns, and set your boat on fire.. I've seen plenty of burn injuries so personally I don't mess with this. Even if the chance of a leak is low, the consequences are pretty unpleasant.


When I bought our boat it had a portable propane camp stove in the galley. First thing the surveyor called out and he seemed pretty concerned.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

That’s because it was not a vented system. Most on board propane systems are equipped with a safety solenoid as well as the propane kept in a locker where it can vent overboard . What you had was an explosion waiting to happen. 

The little bombs valves can get stuck open and could cause the propane to leak into the bilge with no way out to later be ignited.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SchockT said:


> .... Not many ignition sources in the bilge!.....


I'm not trying to pile on and say methane is like nuclear waste. However, every boat has at least one ignition source in the bilge motor. Many have several other motors for fresh water, head intakes, other pumps, switches, even the alternator, depending on engine placement, etc.

It can actually be hard to create the proper gas/air mixture, which is why it's not nuclear waste. However, I don't see these generators with the fuel stored externally and disconnected, via a solenoid, when not in use. That's my only concern. I could theoretically pull my generator and fit one of these units, plus enough fuel to last months in the gen locker. But I don't think that would be safe. Even with the spares elsewhere, the primary tank seems like it is open 24/7. If it was safer, I'd seriously consider it.

I suppose one could fashion a new external vented locker, with a solenoid, but I can't imagine finding another and the running of the generator would become more manual. Not necessarily a bad thing. That's how our diesel generators are run, but one of the features here is power on demand.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SchockT said:


> You are referring to the limits of flammability. The fuel/air mixture has to be between those two numbers in order to be flammable. Any less or any more and it will not ignite. That is quite a narrow band, and similar to propane.
> 
> The point of the small canisters is that there is relatively small amount in them. If one had a slow leak it would likely dissipate without ever reaching that narrow flammable band. You are correct, it is heavier than air, and will settle to the floor, or bilge. There is not enough gas in the canister to fill the boat up like you describe. Even if the gas found that perfect mixture down in the bilge it would still need to find an ignition source. Not many ignition sources in the bilge! And let's say that perfect air fuel mixture did manage to find an ignition source, it might blow a floor board up or something, but it is not likely to give you disfiguring burns like you suggest.
> 
> ...


Yes it could go undetected. That is always a possibility but to mitigate some of the risk it is important to have detectors as well as carry the container with the gas in a vented locker, not in the cabin

Haleakula has two detectors...one for gas another for carbon monoxide ( just in case some with a generator anchors in front of us&#55357;&#56832

https://www.hodgesmarine.com/xinp-2bs-r-xintex-propane-fume-detector--alarm-w2-plastic.html

https://www.hodgesmarine.com/xincmd5-mb-r-xintex-carbon-monoxide-alarm--battery-operated.html

If you must carry methane hopefully you take the safety precaution of venting it as well as have the appropriate fume detector near the source


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

All this stemmed from my comment that having a portable butane stove in the cabin was not a big concern, and I stand by that. When you are done with the stove you flick a lever and the bottle disengages from the stove and the bottle has it's own valve that seals. If that valve does not seal and it leaks slowly it is a small amount of fuel.

I am not advocating storing mass quantities of extra fuel in the cabin. Extra bottles can go in a mesh bag on the rail, in an exterior locker, even the anchor Locker if you like.

On the ignition source discussion....I don't know what kind of bilge pumps other people have, but I have only ever seen submersible pumps used as bilge pumps. If they are water tight, they are air tight too. Certainly not an ignition source. That's not to say that defective wiring or motors cant become an ignition source, but it certainly isn't something worth panicking over.

I understand people want to be safe, but at a certain point you just need to look at probabilities and get a grip.

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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

schockt said:


> you are referring to the limits of flammability. The fuel/air mixture has to be between those two numbers in order to be flammable. Any less or any more and it will not ignite. That is quite a narrow band, and similar to propane.
> 
> yes, it is similar to propane. Does that make it any safer or any less explosive? I have seen the aftermath of a boat propane explosion, with a fatality.
> 
> ...


1


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

SchockT said:


> All this stemmed from my comment that having a portable butane stove in the cabin was not a big concern, and I stand by that. When you are done with the stove you flick a lever and the bottle disengages from the stove and the bottle has it's own valve that seals. If that valve does not seal and it leaks slowly it is a small amount of fuel.
> 
> I am not advocating storing mass quantities of extra fuel in the cabin. Extra bottles can go in a mesh bag on the rail, in an exterior locker, even the anchor Locker if you like.
> 
> ...


I have addressed the question of 'small amount of fuel' in my previous post.

As for ignition sources: it is correct that most pumps IN the bilge are probably centrifugal and sealed (until they become faulty). But there are many other pumps on board, e.g. diaphragm bilge pumps, fresh water pump, etc. And of course many other sources of ignition, like static electricity, motors, ...

You dismiss defective wiring. This happens to be the cause of nearly half (41%) of all boat fires https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2015/october/boat-fires.asp

If you are happy with these probabilities, good for you.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I have addressed the question of 'small amount of fuel' in my previous post.
> 
> As for ignition sources: it is correct that most pumps IN the bilge are probably centrifugal and sealed (until they become faulty). But there are many other pumps on board, e.g. diaphragm bilge pumps, fresh water pump, etc. And of course many other sources of ignition, like static electricity, motors, ...
> 
> ...


No, I'm just not going to lose my mind over the use of a portable stove inside a boat. I used one for many years.

The risk is extremely low. If one is not comfortable with that minuscule risk, that's fine. Don't use one. While you are at it you'd better not use a propane system either, because they can leak and cause an explosion despite having a propane locker, solenoid, etc. How many people forget to switch off the gas when they are done cooking? Even if you DO remember to switch the solenoid off, it could be faulty, or the system could only leak when you are cooking.

And you better not cook with alcohol either! It can spill and find it's way to an ignition source too! Those plastic jugs they sell the alcohol in arent exactly robust. The caps can leak. Very dangerous! You could burn your whole family alive!

Better be safe and just eat cold food!

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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SchockT said:


> All this stemmed from my comment that having a portable butane stove in the cabin was not a big concern, and I stand by that. When you are done with the stove you flick a lever and the bottle disengages from the stove and the bottle has it's own valve that seals. If that valve does not seal and it leaks slowly it is a small amount of fuel.
> 
> I am not advocating storing mass quantities of extra fuel in the cabin. Extra bottles can go in a mesh bag on the rail, in an exterior locker, even the anchor Locker if you like.
> 
> ...


When someone says Get a grip it is certainly not how rational people have discussions......therefore not appropriate

I and others on this forums in other threads have discussed the possibility or personal examples of valves failing on the little bomb bottles. To tempt fate by storing a used one inside the confines of an unvented cabin is irresponsible. It's so easy to put it in a vented propane locker or in a mesh bag outside that I can't really understand your response to safety conscious sailors by saying get a grip.

Others including newbies read these posts and may follow advice they see here. Hopefully the recognize the potential danger of unvented gases for explosion. Some of us including me have seen the results of fires / explosions caused by this. All explosive fuels should be handled with the respect they deserve.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I have never said that fuels should not be treated with respect. I simply said that I have successfully used portable butane stoves for many years and that I consider them safe and reliable. In all those years I never had one leak. If one does leak, a propane detector would warn you just as it would with propane. 

Calling them "bomb bottles" is just over the top hyperbole. That kind of thing is not helpful.

I don't know what the statistics are, but I would be interested to know, of all the gas explosions on boats, how many of them were a result of leaking propane systems, how many were disposable 1lb propane bottles, ( I have had a few of those leak after taking them off the bbq), and how many were 220gram butane canisters? My guess is the vast majority were defective propane systems because the volume of fuel is just so much higher.

So, store the extra bottles in a safe place. Disengage the fuel when you are done cooking. If you are worried about leaks open the little door and check it, or if you are really paranoid thow it in the cockpit for the night. 

It is always a good idea to have a co detector and a gas detector on board.

Butane stoves are perfectly safe.


That's all I have to say about that.

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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I guess the insurance adjuster for the surveyors are we over cautious. 

simply said that I have successfully used portable butane stoves for many years and that I consider them safe and reliable. In all those years I never had one leak. If one does leak, a propane detector would warn you just as it would with propane. 

See this is the same reasoning my cooks Years ago used to give me for allowing their stuff to cool at room temperature ......no one ever got sick.

You only get to have one violent explosion or episode of true food poisoning. The preventative safety measures are usually for the one off situations you hope never occur. On our boat it’s safety first. No need for any preventable risks.

Not trying to convince you as you are set in you ways. Just presenting the facts just like Mast did. 
Carry on....enough said on this


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

SchockT said:


> All this stemmed from my comment that having a portable butane stove in the cabin was not a big concern, and I stand by that. When you are done with the stove you flick a lever and the bottle disengages from the stove and the bottle has it's own valve that seals. If that valve does not seal and it leaks slowly it is a small amount of fuel.
> 
> I am not advocating storing mass quantities of extra fuel in the cabin. Extra bottles can go in a mesh bag on the rail, in an exterior locker, even the anchor Locker if you like.
> 
> ...


I'm not terribly familiar with these butane canisters, but since you make the statement that it's "not a lot of fuel" i assume you've calculated the expanded volume of fuel? And the explosive force it would generate inside a boat? At least how many kJ the combustion would yield? I'm honestly curious to know, especially since I'm too lazy to do it myself, lol.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

SchockT said:


> Butane stoves are perfectly safe.
> 
> That's all I have to say about that.


Yes, perfectly safe!

1 injured in butane stove explosion aboard charter fishing boat in Portland
https://bangordailynews.com/2012/08...sion-aboard-charter-fishing-boat-in-portland/

Fisherman injured, boat sunk in butane explosion
https://edition.channel5belize.com/archives/20205

That's all I have to say about that.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Scandium said:


> I'm not terribly familiar with these butane canisters, but since you make the statement that it's "not a lot of fuel" i assume you've calculated the expanded volume of fuel? And the explosive force it would generate inside a boat? At least how many kJ the combustion would yield? I'm honestly curious to know, especially since I'm too lazy to do it myself, lol.


Answers to both of your questions are in my post #52 above. In brief: a small butane canister yields on the order of 250 gallons of gaseous fuel, and has the explosive force of a bit more than 20 sticks of dynamite. Links are in that post.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Answers to both of your questions are in my post #52 above. In brief: a small butane canister yields on the order of 250 gallons of gaseous fuel, and has the explosive force of a bit more than 20 sticks of dynamite. Links are in that post.


Sorry, saw that after I posted. Your post looks on point. Just want to add that combustion doesn't just occur at the interface within the flammable range, but as fuel is consumed the range, and thus flame front, will move. Until all the released fuel burns. That's why I said if you're lucky its just a flash fire /fireball..


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Answers to both of your questions are in my post #52 above. In brief: a small butane canister yields on the order of 250 gallons of gaseous fuel, and has the explosive force of a bit more than 20 sticks of dynamite. Links are in that post.


I'm not sure where you are getting your information from.

"Butane weighs 0.573*gram*per cubic centimeter or 573 kilogram per cubic meter, i.e. density of butane is equal to*573 kg/m³; at 25°C (77°F or 298.15K) at standard atmospheric pressure."

A disposable butane canister of the type we are discussing contains 220 grams of butane. That butane gas would occupy a volume of 440cc at standard atmospheric pressure. That is about 0.116 gallons.

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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Yes, perfectly safe!
> 
> 1 injured in butane stove explosion aboard charter fishing boat in Portland
> 
> ...


I don't know what type of stove was involved in the first incident you cited. It says nothing about being a portable butane stove.

In second article they definitely seem to be talking about larger capacity tanks. One guy talks about turning off the tank so the fire doesnt spread. They also talk about the tanks being designed to be kept outdoors. That doesnt sound like the ones we are talking about.

The vast majority of boat explosion articles I have found are either gasoline vapor or faulty propane systems. I have yet to find any that are directly attributed to portable butane stoves.

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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Ok, I changed my mind. 

This discussion as got me researching these stoves more, and it seems there have been a number of incidents with these stoves exploding. 

There have been problems with defective stoves and/or fuel bottles, and factory recalls. It seems sometimes the safety mechanisms have failed to work as designed.

We have been using them for many years without incident. We have had 4 of them over the years. 

Others have not been so lucky.

DON'T USE THEM!



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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SchockT said:


> Ok, I changed my mind.
> 
> This discussion as got me researching these stoves more, and it seems there have been a number of incidents with these stoves exploding.
> 
> ...


+1 thank you for your further research and changing your mind???


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There are only two real problems on a boat.

1. Fire
2. Uncontrolled amount of water getting inside the boat.

Everything else is just an inconvenience. Manage these two very carefully.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

SchockT said:


> I'm not sure where you are getting your information from.
> 
> "Butane weighs 0.573*gram*per cubic centimeter or 573 kilogram per cubic meter, i.e. density of butane is equal to*573 kg/m³; at 25°C (77°F or 298.15K) at standard atmospheric pressure."
> 
> ...


Your numbers are for LIQUID butane. Of course it expands considerably when it goes into gas form. This is where I got the numbers from, they are computed from the relative density of liquids and gases.

BTW they are approximate but in the right order of magnitude


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

SchockT said:


> Ok, I changed my mind.
> 
> This discussion as got me researching these stoves more, and it seems there have been a number of incidents with these stoves exploding.
> 
> ...


I am glad this discussion accomplished something. You have been lucky. Hopefully, others that read this thread in the future will not be enticed to roll the dice, as you did, and come to harm.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Your numbers are for LIQUID butane. Of course it expands considerably when it goes into gas form. This is where I got the numbers from, they are computed from the relative density of liquids and gases.
> 
> BTW they are approximate but in the right order of magnitude


No, those numbers are for butane at standard atmospheric pressure and temperature. At atmospheric pressure butane boils at around 0°C. Butane cannot remain in liquid form in atmospheric conditions.

If the contents of one of those bottles truly was 250gallons of gas as you say, IMAGINE how much pressure it would take to squeeze it all into that little can!

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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> That's because it was not a vented system. Most on board propane systems are equipped with a safety solenoid as well as the propane kept in a locker where it can vent overboard . What you had was an explosion waiting to happen.
> 
> The little bombs valves can get stuck open and could cause the propane to leak into the bilge with no way out to later be ignited.


Absolutely right. I'm sure that the portable camp stoves are fine out in the open air, on a picnic table, etc. But there is a reason that a proper propane installation on a boat is done the way it is.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

SchockT said:


> No, those numbers are for butane at standard atmospheric pressure and temperature. At atmospheric pressure butane boils at around 0°C. Butane cannot remain in liquid form in atmospheric conditions.
> 
> If the contents of one of those bottles truly was 250gallons of gas as you say, IMAGINE how much pressure it would take to squeeze it all into that little can!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


But the butane isn't at 1 atm in the canisters is it? I thought it was pressurized, and therefore (having a lower boiling point) in a liquid state? We were looking at the expanded volume. But I'll have to look into it more, like I said I don't know much about these. I've dealt with a couple propane explosion cases at work recently, but not butane (and neither on a boat, thankfully).


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

SchockT said:


> No, those numbers are for butane at standard atmospheric pressure and temperature. At atmospheric pressure butane boils at around 0°C. Butane cannot remain in liquid form in atmospheric conditions.
> 
> If the contents of one of those bottles truly was 250gallons of gas as you say, IMAGINE how much pressure it would take to squeeze it all into that little can!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


Sorry, a density of ~500g/l is a llquid, not a gas (water has 1000g/l, so liquid butane is half as dense as water).

It is a liquid in the can, under pressure. When you expose it to atmospheric pressure, it vaporizes and becomes the gas that you burn.

If you don't believe me, get a children's balloon and attach it to the nozzle of your canister. I promise you it will blow up to MUCH more than the 440ml which is the volume of the canister itself 

Be careful with open flames when you do this, and do it outside, surely not on a boat!!


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Sorry, a density of ~500g/l is a llquid, not a gas (water has 1000g/l, so liquid butane is half as dense as water).
> 
> It is a liquid in the can, under pressure. When you expose it to atmospheric pressure, it vaporizes and becomes the gas that you burn.
> 
> ...


Please do this, and light it on fire and send me the video! 
This guy fills a balloon with 22 g of propane, and says it causes a 6ft diameter fireball. So with 10 times that amount I'd like to see it!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Sorry, a density of ~500g/l is a llquid, not a gas (water has 1000g/l, so liquid butane is half as dense as water).
> 
> It is a liquid in the can, under pressure. When you expose it to atmospheric pressure, it vaporizes and becomes the gas that you burn.
> 
> ...


My mistake...math was never my strong point. Neither was checking my answers!

Physical Properties for Butane

Butane
Liquid Density @ 70°F (lb/ft3)36.05
Gas Density @ 70°F 1 atm (lb/ft3)0.1551
Specific Volume*@ 70°F 1 atm (ft3/lb)6.45
Specific*Gravity 2.108

So if the contents of a full canister is 220g, which is .485lb and 1 lb of gas occupies 6.45 ft3 then .485lb x 6.45ft3 = 3.13 ft3

3.3ft3 is about 23 gallons

So one canister would fill a small garbage bag with gas at atmospheric pressure.

If one were to then light that bag full of gas it would no doubt make an impressive fireball, but it would be a big woof not a detonation like 20 sticks of dynamite!

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I am genuinely interested in the discussion.

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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

SchockT said:


> My mistake...math was never my strong point. Neither was checking my answers!
> 
> Physical Properties for Butane
> 
> ...


I think your math is right! I came up with a higher number because I thought those are quart canisters but I see they are only 16 oz https://www.greatescapecamping.com.au/butane-screw-on-440g-coleman. And of course you picked an even smaller one. If you correct for this, our estimates agree pretty well (four times 63 gallons ~ 250 gals). As I said, this was only a back-of-the-envelope order-of-magnitude calculation.

As to the effect, did you see the video that Scandium posted? This was for <3 gallons of gas. Do you want a fireball twenty times bigger than that in your boat??

For the dynamite comparison, I refer you to the Purdue U. link that I posted.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Yes, the canisters those little stoves use are much smaller than your typical 1lb screw on cylinders.

This debate was sparked by one sentence in one of my posts, to the effect that because of their small fuel capacity leaks aren't a big concern. It was a flippant comment to be sure, and certainly not the main point of my post, but it was based on my many years of using those stoves and never having a problem with leaky fuel cans. The only time I saw a significant leak was if I put the cylinder in wrong and get a spray of liquid when I try to engage it, but it will not engage fully.

There are millions of those little stoves in use all over the world. I used to service a large restaurant that had several of them on every table in the restaurant. ( I reported them to the fire marshal because they were storing dozens of cases of spare fuel cylinders in the fire exit stairwell!)

Apparently there have been some incidents with those stoves exploding in the past. In many cases the cause was improper use, and some cases revealed design flaws in particular models that resulted in them losing their safety standard approval and being pulled off the market until the flaws were corrected.

Clearly all stoves are not created equal, and if one is going to use one of these stoves, they should make sure they are approved by the appropriate governing bodies. Organizations like the CSA in canada and the ASA in Australia do extensive testing before they issue approval, so make sure they have that number. You can also find listings of particular approval numbers that have been revoked on their respective websites.

One benefit of this thread is that I have been digging deeper into the subject and learning more about those stoves, although we have no use for them on our new boat. I left those stoves on our old boat when we sold it. I will definitely speak to the new owner next time I see him and warn him to make sure they are not among the recalled/defective models.





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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

SchockT said:


> Yes, the canisters those little stoves use are much smaller than your typical 1lb screw on cylinders.
> 
> This debate was sparked by one sentence in one of my posts, to the effect that because of their small fuel capacity leaks aren't a big concern. It was a flippant comment to be sure, and certainly not the main point of my post, but it was based on my many years of using those stoves and never having a problem with leaky fuel cans. The only time I saw a significant leak was if I put the cylinder in wrong and get a spray of liquid when I try to engage it, but it will not engage fully.
> 
> ...


I am glad you brought up this point, in that sentence, and that we could clear it up. This was a good discussion and I hope it will be useful also for others. Who knows, we might save someone's life!


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## cascoamarillo (Aug 8, 2013)

FunkyJunk said:


> My boat came equipped with a Kenyon kerosene oven and stovetop, and I'd like to get rid of it and replace it with something else. I like the Origo units, but apparently they're all discontinued and nobody else seems to sell a unit that works off of denatured alcohol as these do. (Perhaps they're outlawed?) I don't really want to find space for or invest in a propane locker. Does anyone have any good ideas for this? TIA
> 
> p.s. Attempts to find a used Origo have not yet turned up anything.


Hi,

I just saw this on CL here in Cape Cod and remembered your post. Hope it helps if you haven't found anything yet.

https://capecod.craigslist.org/bpo/d/alcohol-stove/7100570175.html


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## mad4mammals (Apr 2, 2020)

contrarian said:


> I just wish I had the 3000 instead of the 6000. I have never fired up the oven and probably never will. I could use the oven space for something else but I'm not going to part with my 6000 unless I can find a 3000 to replace it with. When I first got the boat I thought it was huge.... now it feels cramped.


Would you be interested in selling your 6000?


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

The problem with butane (and also propane) on a boat is that the gas is heavier than air. That's why propane systems installed on boats have the tank in a locker vented overboard. Precautions need to taken when using a portable butane or propane stove on a boat. Any leak can result in the gas accumulating in the bilge and a spark can cause an explosion. There is a lot of energy in even a small butane cylinder.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

ABYC A-30 limits the size of portable stove canisters to 8 ounces. That is typical.

Not all of the gas will end up in the bilge or any other place. Although heavier than air (MW 58 vs 29 for air), like any gas, with any air movement it will mix in and only a small portion will actually settle. Generally the bilge is not wide open to the cabin (only small vents). This is true if the stove is on the counter top. If you store it in the bilge or a locker connected to the bilge, well, obviously more will stay in the bilge.

The volume of the gas, assuming the cylinder is full, is about 3 ft^3, but the volume of an explosive mixture ranges from 35-160 ft^3 (UEL to LEL).

Yup, there have been accidents (CPSC Report 2003.

The bottom line is that they are cheap and seem similar to a home gas range, so they have displaced marine stoves for smaller boats and RV, making it uneconomical for alcohol to compete. Dometic stopped making them because the OEMs stopped buying them (yes, I spoke to folks up the food chain at Dometic). Perfectly understandable. The market no longer demanded alcohol stoves, whether safer or not... because most of the market does not understand that difference. People like to just turn a knob.

And that is all I know for now.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

mad4mammals said:


> Would you be interested in selling your 6000?


The way things are going you'll probably be able to buy the whole darn boat for the price of an alcohol stove !!!
For right now I'll hold off on selling the stove though. The one in Cape Cod did pique my interest but I thought it might be difficult for me to purchase logistically. If it were on Ebay that would be a different story.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

overthehorizon said:


> It is amazing that decades ago, the U.S. Coast Guard deemed alcohol as being the only safe cook fuel to use on a boat...as the flame could be extinguished with water. They also said LPG was far to dangerous to use on a boat. For alcohol, they over looked the fact that the flame is very clear and at times hard to see and the flame is cold compared to mineral spirits or propane so one is exposed to a cooking flame for a much longer period than with the other fuels. When I had a boat with an alcohol stove, I quickly bought the burners for mineral spirits. They are the same threads so the alcohol burners were tossed in the trash and the mineral spirits burner screwed in. Still, alcohol had to be used to preheat the mineral spirits burners same as with the alcohol burners. So if you really want to regress with a stove fuel, unscrew your mineral spirits burners and screw in some new alcohol burners.....if they can be found.


From BoatUS Magazine on causes of fires on boats........

(6) Stove fires appear to be less common (1%) than in the past, probably due to fewer alcohol stoves being installed on new boats. Still, alcohol can be a dangerous fuel; though it can't explode, an alcohol flame is hard to see. One fire was started when a member tried to light the stove and gave up because he couldn't see the flame. Unfortunately, he had succeeded, but didn't realize it until he got a call from the fire department. Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

boatpoker said:


> From BoatUS Magazine on causes of fires on boats........
> 
> (6) Stove fires appear to be less common (1%) than in the past, probably due to fewer alcohol stoves being installed on new boats. Still, alcohol can be a dangerous fuel; though it can't explode, an alcohol flame is hard to see. One fire was started when a member tried to light the stove and gave up because he couldn't see the flame. Unfortunately, he had succeeded, but didn't realize it until he got a call from the fire department. Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion.


The article subject was likely the thousands of older Pressure Alcohol stoves. They are indeed dangerous. Perhaps due to the Origo flame being non-pressurized, but we have never had any problem seeing the lit flame on any of the burners on our Origo 6000 range. We have been using this since we acquired our boat in 1994, so we do have some history with it.

Statistically, one anecdote does not "prove" _anything_. Heck, you could find a similar story for every kind of heat-producing device on any boat, RV, or house. 
Not to disrespect the magazine from BoatUS, but I have received/read it for years, and they often shorten a complicated subject into some few column-inches that will over-excite the reader a bit.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

olson34 said:


> The subject was likely the thousands of older Pressure Alcohol stoves. They are indeed dangerous. Perhaps due to the Origo flame being non-pressurized, but we have never had any problem seeing the lit flame on any of the burners on our Origo 6000 range. We have been using this since we acquired our boat in 1994, so we do have some history with it.
> 
> Statistically, one anecdote does not "prove" _anything_. Heck, you could find a similar story for every kind of heat-producing device on any boat, RV, or house.
> Not to disrespect the magazine from BoatUS, but I have received/read it for years, and they often shorten a complicated subject into some few column-inches that will over-excite the reader a bit.


Not quite one anecdote. Their view is based on their own insurance claim stats.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

My old boat came with a Kenyon pressurized alcohol stove. I used it a few times before deciding it was too dangerous. If you over pressurize the system a bit you can get flames shooting up dangerously high. I am sure they can be used safely once you get to know them and know the tricks, but our boat came with a set of cupboards that fit in the opening and gave us more counter space, which was more valuable to us than an oven. I pulled the whole system out and put it in a local marine consignment store and someone snapped it up right away!

The concern about invisible flames with alcohol is not so much the burner itself, it is when there is a fuel spill or leak. 

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## Zemurray (Oct 28, 2018)

boatpoker said:


> Not quite one anecdote. Their view is based on their own insurance claim stats.


Unless the stats include data separated for both "pressurized" and "non pressurized" alcohol stoves, it doesnt really say much.

Having replaced a pressurized alcohol stove with an Origo, I can definitively say they are not at all the same thing. I did a ton of research myself and I've never found one single owner complaining, feeling unsafe, or report of a fire with an Origo stove. They are very safe. The only negative things I've heard about Origo are from posts by people who have never used one and associate them with the old pressurized units.

Any fuel under pressure is going to carry more risk. There are a ton of reports of propane accidents due to it's inherit risk which are well known. I'd much rather have an Origo than propane for safety alone.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatpoker said:


> Not quite one anecdote. Their view is based on their own insurance claim stats.


Suspect this data is obsolete and based on the old pressurised alcohol stoves.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

We used a Kenyon pressure stove for a few years and with proper understanding and maintenance it worked very well and was not considered a danger. A friend offered an Origo alcohol/electric stove for almost free (actually it was offered free but I think I gave him a hundred dollars). I don't think it is better but it is really quiet, the Kenyon was a really noisy beast. I have posted this before but I'll do so again. After enough use the springs that support the fuel cannisters can lose their spring retention. If this happens, the cannisters are not held high enough and the sliding gate does not seal off the opening; this results in the flame not being extinguished. At the least the stove is burning fuel for nothing, at worst, something bad may happen when the user opens the gate and a flame suddenly leaps up. I suggest that users check for this condition. It isn't difficult to rectify, I used clothes pin wedges under the springs. At first, I just bent them up a bit but that was only a short term solution.


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