# Cabin Heat



## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

This is a question for you northern guys and gals...YA ,YA, move to Florida I can here the rest of you now already..

So having to build a fire in the ol wood stove here at the house for the past few nights has got me thinking on how were going to endure the upcoming winter and the start of our sailing season aboard Eagle Knight.

The idea of cutting another hole in the cabin top to install some sort of refinement on Mr Franklin's invention isn't blowing my skirt up but neither is 5 elbows and lengths of pipe headed out the companionway Judd Clampett style either.

But Im pretty sure I do want some sort of solid fuel type arangment unless you can convince me otherwise.

So fire away with what you have or have had and pictures of your installation would be greatly appreciated.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Still- great minds think alike, or maybe it's just the cold weather on my part...whatever. I'm starting to install a Wallas 40D forced air system tomorrow. I would love to have a woodstove or a bulkhead mount diesel or propane heater but no available wall space so I'm diving into the engine compartment to mount the Wallas. Nothing like a little crummy weather near the end of Sept. to make you start thinking about heat on the boat.

John


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## mtboat (Oct 14, 2007)

I am using an outfitters woodstove. The type made for horse packin' , with wall tents. It is about the size of a 5 ga. bucket on its side with 10 inch legs. Many models out there, Cabelas is a good place to start. Chimney goes through the deck but when not in use or under sail the top 2 ft. of stove pipe comes out, and a circular hatch or cover swings over the hole and a wing nutted bolt secures. 2 1/2 inch stove pipe with a double wall roof jack means about a 5 in. hole. I am surrounded by firewood. If I had to buy firewood, I would seriously consider a pellet stove.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Cool John...

Eagle knight is equipped with Forced air heat as well but I was wanting something not requiring engine or gen-set noise in a quit anchorage some where.

I really dont have readily available bulk head space either so was hoping some creative souls out there had some clever ideas on the problum.

That 57' mast of mine would sure make one fine chimminy....


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## badsanta (Oct 16, 2006)

You can get self contained diesel forced air heat with out running engine or genset.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

RainDrop,
Given that this is not just your boat we are talking about I think I should have some input.  

Personally I'd go for one of those Dickinson things, smoke stack or no smoke stack. Diesel or Kerosene, even LPG is an option. Newport is the model we would instal but maybe for PNW you might need something a bit beefier. 

They do still make a solid fuel heater but the problem with that has to be fuel stowage and don't try and tell me that a solid fuel heater is not going to be messy. 

Thing I like about the Dickinsons is that you do see a flickering flame. That has to be nice.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Here''s the propane version of the Dickinson Newport TDW refers to.. relatively compact on the bulkhead, visible flame, TC protected and fully vented incl outside combustion air.










Here's another install on the larger version in our previous boat, which didn't have free bulkead space, so we build an alcove and sacrificed a small portion of a settee:










As a bit of a bonus we gained the little storage cubby behind the heater!


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Faster said:


> Here''s the propane version of the Dickinson Newport TDW refers to.. relatively compact on the bulkhead, visible flame, TC protected and fully vented incl outside combustion air.


Ron, just curious: Exactly how much heat do you get out the front of these things? Is there a limit to how close you can install combustibles (like the table) to the front of it??

(The only reason I ask is that you have an electric fan heater on the floor..  )

Cameron


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

And good input it is..

I am warming up to the possible inevitability of a flue penetration through the deck but it will take some more wrestling in my mind though..Im not usually one to put ascetics above functionality but sill she has such a nice looking deck ...Alas if we must we must..I would really want to steer clear of anything but a straight vertical run if at all possible in the cabin though..just for ascetic's...ok I lied a little..

I like this set up as its tucked away from inadvertent stumbling into hot iron and it actually has potential in Eagle Knights existing layout with some cabinetry modifications.

All this more then likely depends on appropriate locations for a penetration in the deck that would not interfere with sail or line movement above deck or present a constant tripping hazard in a high traffic lane..Most likely I will have to sail her a while to figure thoes out.

These units seem to have the ability to heat your hot water tank as well which would be a plus.

Which would be better the Diesel or Propane?

Still...the smell of a little wood smoke wafting thru the cabin congers up the romantic in me so keep the ideas comming..


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Over there in the corner of the saloon is where I was thinking for that possible installation..We would not have to lose any of the settee either which is our only semblance to making any sort of sea birth underway.

One of the A/C and forced air heat units resides there but dosent take up that much of it.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

I guess I could as well do a bulkhead mount as you did Faster but was thinking of trying to keep the heat as low in the boat as possible more then anything. And worried about people hitting their head constantly while seated at the table.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

*Requires no bulkhead*

Someone was going to suggest it . . . .


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

But very high maintenance...  especially the particular model in your photo.



Omatako said:


> Someone was going to suggest it . . . .


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

Here's a picture of the Dickensen propane chimney exit on my last boat. I used 3 overlapping Boom Bails to keep the lines from snagging and in the 4 years after installation I never had a line snag.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Scott, on a previous 25 footer that we had, I built a little wood stove and installed in on its own companion way hatch board with the pipe exiting out the backside and then up. We burned presto log rounds in it. It barely took the chill off that little boat and it wouldn't burn but an hour at a time, but it's what we could do with the resources we had (in other words too po' to buy a real stove) It definitely looked like something like Jethro would throw together but I'm not the kind of fellow who worries too much about what other people think. Anyway, I totally get the idea of not wanting to cut a hole through the cabin top so that's the alternative that we came up with. 

Omatako's solution looks good too, but I'm not sure where you would store that when not in use and I'm not sure whether it's vented to the outside or not, because air circulation is critical.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Hartley18 said:


> Ron, just curious: Exactly how much heat do you get out the front of these things? Is there a limit to how close you can install combustibles (like the table) to the front of it??
> 
> (The only reason I ask is that you have an electric fan heater on the floor..  )
> 
> Cameron


The heater is our winter warmer while in our slip, or at a marina and plugged in. The electric heater is more effective, but given a couple of hours the fireplace will keep us quite toasty. We generally close the forward door in the head to avoid heating the V berth space which we don't use much.

This is the smaller 9000 btu model, the 12000 is noticeably more effective, and that boat had a lot more open space too.

So if we're plugged in we save on LPG and use the electric.

When the heater is running you can hold your hand on the sides of the unit. The stack gets VERY hot and it would be nice to have a guard on it, but the unit itself requires only minimal clearance. The glass gets warm too, but there is a heat exchanger and the fan blows warm air out of the vent above the glass (directed downward) much like a forced air system.

The addition of a small 12v fan to move the heat around more is on our list.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Stillraining said:


> I guess I could as well do a bulkhead mount as you did Faster but was thinking of trying to keep the heat as low in the boat as possible more then anything. And worried about people hitting their head constantly while seated at the table.


Mounting the heater as high as that on the bulkhead does look a bit awkward, and would be problematic in other ways as you suggest.

Hard to tell from the pic, but is there space enough on the side of your settee in front of the mast (down low?)

.. another alternative I've seen is mounting the heater on the mast itself - any height you want and obviously central to the cabin space. It would require some thought as to the bracket and mounting, but it could be done.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I agree, our propane Dickinson keeps the main saloon nice a toasty, but the heat does not reach the aft berth. We too close the doors to the V-berth and the head to help contain the heat. I find that we use it more in the early spring season than we do in the fall.

If you want to heat the entire boat, depending on boat size, a forced air type installation might be the way to go, but I think that would be more money and a harder install up front.

As has been pointed out, the bulkhead mounted Dickinson has a two piece chimney. The oxygen that is burned is brought in from the outside so oxygen depletion is not a problem. We love ours as well.

Also, they sell a guard for the chimney vent. Christy made his own, but you can purchase one with the heater.










(Our boat is trashed in this picture, teenagers. Its about the only pic I have of our heater)


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Still- the forced air heaters like the Wallas, Espar and Webasto don't require the engine to be running. They are small diesel fired furnaces that only require a small amount of power to run the fan and ignition. Installation can be a big job though because of the need to run several 3" flexible duct hoses to the outlets. The Wallas I am installing puts out about the equivalent of 4000 watts, so hopefully it will keep us warm on all but the coldest of days. I sure like the looks of the bulkhead heaters though, and seeing the flames. Maybe we can just find a fireplace program for the laptop and snuggle up close to it and burn some woodchips on the stove for atmosphere  .

John


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Still,

We discussed heaters generically in a couple of threads last year. Search "cabin heaters" and you should find a couple threads that cover the pros and cons of the various types. Good info there.

Faster and TJK pretty well covered the Dickinson Newports. I like their propane systems for the clean burn. Diesel would be okay I guess. The guys at Dickinson told me that the solid fuel version is primarily for decorative/ambiance purpose and they did not recommend it for serious heating requirements. We got our P9000 from an outfit out your way called Go-2-Marine. They were the cheapest by far.

From your photos, you look to have it easy, installation-wise. Since we have an "open" interior with no bulkheads to speak of, I had to build out a surface on which to mount the heater. We ordered the optional interior chimney guard, as well as the optional exterior stack protector (which you can sort-of see in the second photo, on the starboard coachroof just aft the forward hatch). Sorry, these are not the best photos but they're all I've got.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

> Omatako's solution looks good too, but I'm not sure where you would store that when not in use and I'm not sure whether it's vented to the outside or not, because air circulation is critical.
> __________________
> Ray


Too Funny...



> Still,
> 
> We discussed heaters generically in a couple of threads last year. Search "cabin heaters" and you should find a couple threads that cover the pros and cons of the various types. Good info there.


I should have did that John...sorry..

I actually found one Sailnet thread after the fact while doing a google search late last night...but as long as were into it now lets keep going..if its OK with everyone.?

So it seems so far that everyone with a Dickerson has gone propane ...I was actually leaning to the diesel for two reasons... 1st) larger BTU output and... 2nd) the gas issue ( lets not go there..as Im ok with it it already in the boat anyway )

Iv thought about Johns forced air hes installing running on diesel thats another option to check out Im pretty sure im going to need 15000 BTUs to really make a dent though.

I still cant quite give up on wood though..We heat our home almost entirely by wood and yes its a little messy in two ways fly ash when say opining the door or cleaning out the firebox and just from the handeling and storing of the wood...Seems like the consensus is its more visual then practical heat out put wise but I was considering maybe something larger then suggested..something like this..


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Still, no worries on the old threads. I wasn't criticizing, just trying to be helpful in making you aware that there's a lot of good info on the topic here at SailNet.

I like those mini-woodstoves like the Halibut, Sardine, etc form Navigator ( Traditional Cast Iron Marine Stoves by Navigator Stove Works,Inc. ). My wife wants me to install one in our kitchen!

Here's the thing: I know several people with solid fuel and diesel heaters. They all complain about the residue left on deck. You can reduce it by getting a flue extension, but those can't usually be used underway. Also, I think it would be pretty messy to haul and store wood on the boat. Cleaner pellets can be used, but again, it's yet one more fuel to load aboard.

The propane is clean and easy, if that's what you've got for your galley already. The visible flame is REALLY nice too. Just my opinion, others may vary.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

OR this...............


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

JohnRPollard said:


> Still, no worries on the old threads. I wasn't criticizing, just trying to be helpful in making you aware that there's a lot of good info on the topic here at SailNet.
> 
> I like those mini-woodstoves like the Halibut, Sardine, etc form Navigator ( Traditional Cast Iron Marine Stoves by Navigator Stove Works,Inc. ). My wife wants me to install one in our kitchen!
> 
> ...


Thanks John...You bring up a good point about deck mess and the benefits of clean burning propane..I only have propane locker storage for 2 of the small what are they 8 may be 10 lb bottles..heck maybe there 12 or so I really dont know the size..1/2 the size of a standard 20 lb anyway..So how long a burn time do you guys get?

Got to go to work check in later..Thanks every one.

Oh ...Faster ..Good Eye on spying that space in front of the mast..if it was about 6" deeper It would be a no-brainer to put it there but Im afraid of burns and or skinned knees negotiating around the table even when not in use. And/or someone using the chimney for a handhold while underway.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Diesel Antartic stove. Burns up to 1 gallon of diesel/24 hrs. plumbed in to our main tanks. Minimal stuff to go wrong but needs to be mounted with heeling in mind if used underway. Every once in a while, we get some soot on the deck like JohnRPollard mentioned. Nice ambience with the visible flame. An alternate cooking source. Plumbs in to our hot water tank, so we have hot water in the morning. Plenty of BTU's, although it takes a little while to heat up the boat (unlike one of those forced air diesel stove). Quiet.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Stillraining said:


> .I only have propane locker storage for 2 of the small what are they 8 may be 10 lb bottles..heck maybe there 12 or so I really dont know the size..1/2 the size of a standard 20 lb anyway..So how long a burn time do you guys get?


I have been impressed with the modest fuel consumption of our P9000. Certainly, it depends on how much time you spend aboard. We also have 2, 10 lb propane tanks, but it has been more than adequate to have a good heat source for an entire season, using the boat as a weekender and vacations.

If you go with the larger P12000 unit, of course it would use more fuel.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

JohnRPollard said:


> I have been impressed with the modest fuel consumption of our P9000. Certainly, it depends on how much time you spend aboard. We also have 2, 10 lb propane tanks, but it has been more than adequate to have a good heat source for an entire season, using the boat as a weekender and vacations.
> 
> If you go with the larger P12000 unit, of course it would use more fuel.


You're right, John, the usage seems pretty good (low) to us too.. and especially if you think to turn the flame down once you're comfortable..

Still, if you read the old threads somewhere I dug up the specs on the two Dickinson propane heaters.. IIRC it was around 80 hours/120 hours per 20 lb tank at full flame depending on model. We typically run ours for 3-4 hours at a time (and not overnight.. although I think it's safe enough to do so) on winter weekends so it's not like we're running up to refill tanks all the time.

Including galley stove use and spending 5-8 weeks aboard each summer (rarely using heater then, of course) we refill our 20lb propane tank once a year.. we do have a separate bottle for the BBQ.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Still:

Not to be a killjoy, but I think you maybe ought to think about whether you even want a heater.

I have a bulkhead mounted diesel heater on my C30, and I've used it exactly twice in the past 3 winters.

Our kids are about the same age, and I don't know about your family's attitudes, but in general, if it's cold enough to require a heater, it's too cold for sailing.

When we cruise in the winter, it's generally weekenders to "civilization" at a marina with shore power. We just use an electric space heater then.


So, I wonder what use you will really get out of it...

I'm glad I have heat on my boat, but am not so sure that I would pay to add it.

Of course, you ARE farther north than Edmonds.... 

David


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Im back...To nasty out to entice me to go play in the dirt today  ...Man Im addicted to this place ( it didnt take much )...The only thing more fun then messing about on boats is talking about them.

Thats a fair question Dave and I'll try to answer that.

I know my Girls... if I can keep them warm their up for about anything..And even though they like dock amenities and exploring water front hamlets we all really like the solitude that only comes from anchoring out... Also my line of work gives me way more time off ( without pay ) in the winter..so funds for marina stays are less available but time for boating in general is greater. 

Its a bummer but thats what it is..One of the many reasons I fall into the condo on the water type boat owner verses a more sporty pointing boat...Give em lots of room and open space, all the amenities of home and they will want to be out there with me...And I love my women with me if they arnt around and enjoying partaking in my life I dont enjoy doing it either. ..so heat it is. ...My old bones won't complain as much either.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

christyleigh said:


> Here's a picture of the Dickensen propane chimney exit on my last boat. I used 3 overlapping Boom Bails to keep the lines from snagging and in the 4 years after installation I never had a line snag.


That's clever. I like it.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I will go diesel heat (I carry 140 gallons, after all) probably with Espar or Wallas buried in a locker. As I already have AC, I can use the existing vents paired with the A/C, as long as I can shut away the heat from the A/C venting and unit (because it might melt).

Propane for heating is convenient on coasts, but not offshore, and as a fuel, it is "wetter", leading to potential issues with condensation.

I recommend, as I have other times the topic has arisen, this book:

The Warm Dry Boat by Roger McAfee

which, as it was written in the PNW, should apply. The critical bit is not heating the air, but venting the boat so that damp cold air is heated and sent up the flue. Get the damp out, and the boat _feels _better.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Stillraining said:


> Im back...To nasty out to entice me to go play in the dirt today  ...Man Im addicted to this place ( it didnt take much )...The only thing more fun then messing about on boats is talking about them.
> 
> Thats a fair question Dave and I'll try to answer that.
> 
> ...


All good answers and reasons, Still. Get the heater.

David


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Valiente said:


> Propane for heating is convenient on coasts, but not offshore, and as a fuel, it is "wetter", leading to potential issues with condensation.


Val,

I'll agree with you about propane for long distance/offshore or real cold climate heating. Diesel would be better for that.

But as for the moisture issue with propane, the reason I and several others speak so highly of these Dickinson units is that they have a sealed combustion chamber fed by a double-walled chimney. All the air _*for*_ combustion is drawn from abovedecks and all the exhaust _*from*_ combustion is simillarly vented to the exterior. No moisture issues at all. Very dry heat. Self cooling (or, heat-limiting) chimney. Pretty slick.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Thanks Val..I just did a search of my public library ..they dont have it so I just ordered it.

Im leaning toward diesel ( or wood ) my self at this early stage not ruling out Propane yet or diesel fired forced air as I to have plenty of fuel @ 120 gal and a/c ducting but its in two different zones so would need two units to utilize it all. ( but fuel aint cheap and Dickenson says there largest model burns almost 4 gal per 24/day on high. )
But what Im really after is self sufficient heat ..ie no power consumption required... or very very little anyway..and of course the cheapest BTU for the buck that makes the most sense in terms of weighing out all the pros and cons.

I know I can run my motorhome propane forced air furnace for about 3 days and interior lights conservatively on 350 ah ( yes I now realize I've been abusing my batteries thanks to my sailing education.. ) but I think a boat is going to use more total ah per day, just a gut feeling i have could be wrong.. I realize I have a gen-set and all that gadgetry which is nice and reassuring but there's nothing like quit heat from a good dependable stove..


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

JohnRPollard said:


> Val,
> 
> I'll agree with you about propane for long distance/offshore or real cold climate heating. Diesel would be better for that.
> 
> But as for the moisture issue with propane, the reason I and several others speak so highly of these Dickinson units is that they have a sealed combustion chamber fed by a double-walled chimney. All the air _*for*_ combustion is drawn from abovedecks and all the exhaust _*from*_ combustion is simillarly vented to the exterior. No moisture issues at all. Very dry heat. Self cooling (or, heat-limiting) chimney. Pretty slick.


Good Point and dully noted John...Your not making this any easier are you...

When you said you go all season on a couple bottles like mine John.. can you sort of define that a little

1) Nights on the hook or aboard only using propane for
a) Heat
b) stovetop/oven

If this sounds petty what Im trying to get my mind around is work/hassle involved vs cost ..If Propane is cheaper to run compared to diesel but Im swapping out propane bottles to go get filled every other trip ( I hate that part about propane.. it's always in the middle of cooking hamburgers when we want a quick meal too.. ) Then the savings dosent out way the benefit unless off set by larger benefits like way cleaner, better smelling etc..

Hey that brings up something else we need to discuss and I wanted to ask..What about smell of thease different heaters?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Stillraining said:


> Good Point and dully noted John...Your not making this any easier are you...
> 
> When you said you go all season on a couple bottles like mine John.. can you sort of define that a little
> 
> ...


Still,

My usage/consumption experience is similar to Faster's (but from what he has posted of his logbook, he gets out more often than we do.) We do a couple regular weekends each month, several 3-4 day long weekends each year, plus a 10-14 day trip in the summer.

We almost always anchor out. We cook for a family of five with our propane stove/oven, supplemented by the charcoal grill. And we heat the boat during the shoulder seasons (March/April, Oct/Nov) with propane. When heating, it's usually 4-5 hours in the evening, 2-3 hours in the morning. We have two 10 lb tanks, but have never used them both up in a sailing season (March-Nov).

There is NO odor from our heater. That was an issue I had to consider when deciding between diesel and propane -- one of my daughters has an acute sense of smell and gets nauseated by diesel odors. I didn't want to introduce any more sources into the cabin.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Stillraining said:


> Hey that brings up something else we need to discuss and I wanted to ask..What about smell of thease different heaters?


Our pet Dickinson propane heater is odorless. The forced air heaters are essentially odorless inside, but the exhausts can be smelly/noisy outside (more a problem for your neighbour, perhaps)

Some of the non-fully vented diesel heaters can be a bit smelly.... goes hand in hand with the added risks of using such heaters in a less-well-vented environment.

The only knock on this heater of ours that I have is that the fan is rather noisy, but it really ups the efficiency if you run it at high speed... I just can't stand to listen to it that way. It has a tolerable moderate speed that's OK.

Finally, the deciding factor for us was cost.. $700 for the P9000 including all required accessories (flue, "charlie noble", mounting plate etc.. all but the flue guard). Probably at least half the cost of a forced air system.


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## LoTech (Sep 10, 2008)

JohnRPollard said:


> Since we have an "open" interior with no bulkheads to speak of, I had to build out a surface on which to mount the heater. We ordered the optional interior chimney guard, as well as the optional exterior stack protector (which you can sort-of see in the second photo, on the starboard coachroof just aft the forward hatch). Sorry, these are not the best photos but they're all I've got.


If the stack gets very hot, what does it come into contact with as it passes thru the deck?

In a squall or a roll does that cover make for a watertight seal?

I was on a boat that used a small, gravity-fed diesel tank mounted behind the stove. It was a neat set-up.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I've been eyeballing the Dickinson Propane units for Oh Joy as well. I sail regardless of the weather and it'd be nice to have some heat besides the propane oven on occasion. Seeing as my fuel tank is only 25 gallons, propane's good for me.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

LoTech said:


> If the stack gets very hot, what does it come into contact with as it passes thru the deck?


It does get pretty hot, but not as bad as it would if it weren't a double-walled chimney (intake air comes down the outer perimeter, exhaust goes up the inner flue). Where it exits the coachroof, the hole diameter is cut so that there is a 1/4" gap between the flue and the deck material. I stuffed some flameproof insulation in there, but I think the air gap alone would be sufficient insulation.

The top of the flue terminates at the flue cap, which slips over and covers the top of the chimney, and holds it centered in place via some feet that splay out and screw into the deck or mounting block.



LoTech said:


> In a squall or a roll does that cover make for a watertight seal?


In a squall, yes. In a roll, no.

The flue guard (which fits over the flue cap) not only protects the flue cap from sheets, but also has a shield to block spray taken over the bow. We have never had any water make it down the chimney.

In a worst case, water could come down the chimney during a roll, but it would not flood the boat since the combustion chamber is sealed to the interior. Probably wouldn't be good for the heater, though.

Fortunately, there is a simple remedy for folks heading off soundings. The flue guard can be removed and a 6" stainless mixing bowl and gasket can be easily fitted over the flue to make it watertight. But then you can't use the heater while it's sealed up....


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

CharlieCobra said:


> I've been eyeballing the Dickinson Propane units for Oh Joy as well. I sail regardless of the weather and it'd be nice to have some heat besides the propane oven on occasion. Seeing as my fuel tank is only 25 gallons, propane's good for me.


Charlie, I think you'd like it. We used to do as you do and take the chill off with the oven, but that is where the problem Val mentioned comes in: moisture. When we'd do a lot of pre-heating and baking (all to warm up the boat) our cabin would turn into a rain forest from the moisture that is a by-product of propane combustion. It all gets dumped into the cabin because the stove/oven is not vented outdoors.

Check the price at Go-2-Marine. Two years ago I got the entire package (with chimney guard and flue guard) for about U.S. $600.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Yep, the last time I checked it was just over $700 or so. I know what ya mean about condensation from the oven. I've just gotta find a place to mount it.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Masterfully understated JRP. 


JohnRPollard said:


> ....In a worst case, water could come down the chimney during a roll, but it would not flood the boat since the combustion chamber is sealed to the interior. * Probably wouldn't be good for the heater, though.*
> 
> Fortunately, there is a simple remedy for folks heading off soundings. The flue guard can be removed and a 6" stainless mixing bowl and gasket can be easily fitted over the flue to make it watertight. But then you can't use the heater while it's sealed up....


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## LoTech (Sep 10, 2008)

JohnRPollard said:


> ...All the air _*for*_ combustion is drawn from abovedecks and all the exhaust _*from*_ combustion is simillarly vented to the exterior. No moisture issues at all. Very dry heat. Self cooling (or, heat-limiting) chimney. Pretty slick.


So the unit cannot be used without a fan to draw-in outside combustion air. Does the fan go on automatically when the unit is turned on? I noticed a little switch on the front.


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## SteveCox (Jul 12, 2006)

*Dickinson propane*

Lo,
I don't think the fan is for combustion. It is used to blow the warm air downward in order to circulate it better. The combustion works without any electrical power.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

LoTech said:


> So the unit cannot be used without a fan to draw-in outside combustion air. Does the fan go on automatically when the unit is turned on? I noticed a little switch on the front.


Steve's correct... the fan is not required for combustion. It recirculates cabin air across the heat exchanger. The air is discharged above the glass window and directed towards the sole. The greatly increases the effectiveness of the unit.

Combustion air is drawn in naturally, and once the fire is established, the air is preheated as it passes on the outside of the combustion byproducts in the inner flue.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Looks like they separated everything...now you buy the flew kit and stove separate...looks like about 1200.00 for the Antarctic setup.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> Val,
> 
> I'll agree with you about propane for long distance/offshore or real cold climate heating. Diesel would be better for that.
> 
> But as for the moisture issue with propane, the reason I and several others speak so highly of these Dickinson units is that they have a sealed combustion chamber fed by a double-walled chimney. All the air _*for*_ combustion is drawn from abovedecks and all the exhaust _*from*_ combustion is simillarly vented to the exterior. No moisture issues at all. Very dry heat. Self cooling (or, heat-limiting) chimney. Pretty slick.


It is, and I would have a Dickinson for coastal/domestic work, because its design completely compensates for the two shortcomings of propane: 1) it's wet, and 2) it's available in a bizarre number of fittings internationally, when it's available at all. So despite the very nice and proper stack, propane's out apart from the stove, which is a Force Ten three-burner oven I really like.

Other than that, I love and use propane a lot.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Stillraining said:


> But what Im really after is self sufficient heat ..ie no power consumption required... or very very little anyway..and of course the cheapest BTU for the buck that makes the most sense in terms of weighing out all the pros and cons.


I hear that. I already have forced air heating via my Mermaid Marine Air heat pump...but it eats 17 amps at start-up and the March pump is 115 AC...a super pump, but offshore A/C and heat from electrical sources are very expensive in electrons. If I'm on shore power, I don't think twice...the water can be 40F/5C and I can get heat from it.

I need either a "whole boat solution" running on diesel, or a "zone" solution (also diesel) in the form of a saloon bulkhead heater. I am leaning toward a whole boat solution not just because we'll be liveaboards, but because keeping the boat warm and dry is part of keeping it uncorroded, as condensation on a metal boat is a bigger problem than on a F/G.

I've even considered capturing waste heat from the engine and using little block heaters and fans, but this set-up is likely too fragile for the kind of sailing we'll do.

The strange thing is that the pilothouse gets quite warm in the daytime from the sun and the engine heat (when running), but the aft cabin and the saloon (both down three steps) remain cool, unless the stove is running. So maybe I need a ceiling fan in reverse?

The layout of the boat is


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

You guys are going to love this book I mentioned...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> I will go diesel heat (I carry 140 gallons, after all) probably with Espar or Wallas buried in a locker. As I already have AC, I can use the existing vents paired with the A/C, as long as I can shut away the heat from the A/C venting and unit (because it might melt).
> 
> Propane for heating is convenient on coasts, but not offshore, and as a fuel, it is "wetter", leading to potential issues with condensation.
> 
> ...


That's a great book Mark.

Agree absolutely re diesel over gas. It just seems to make sense to me although in one of the other threads someone did mention that when vented outside the gas heaters are not all that wet. Using the gas oven as a heater is wet cos no ventilation.

When I was a young fella and still pretty much in hippy mode I yearned for a wood fire in a boat but they are (as someone else mentioned) not particularly efficient and where do you keep the wood pile ?

RainDrop old mate its a nice idea but I'm afraid it has whiskers on it.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Faster said:


> You're right, John, the usage seems pretty good (low) to us too.. and especially if you think to turn the flame down once you're comfortable..
> 
> Still, if you read the old threads somewhere I dug up the specs on the two Dickinson propane heaters.. IIRC it was around 80 hours/120 hours per 20 lb tank at full flame depending on model. We typically run ours for 3-4 hours at a time (and not overnight.. although I think it's safe enough to do so) on winter weekends so it's not like we're running up to refill tanks all the time.
> 
> Including galley stove use and spending 5-8 weeks aboard each summer (rarely using heater then, of course) we refill our 20lb propane tank once a year.. we do have a separate bottle for the BBQ.


Faster...Sorry somehow I missed this post ...most helpful thank you

They sound very miserly.


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## Shortman (Feb 12, 2006)

*Dickinson Newport*

is what I have and like very much. Installed the same as Faster's current. Knocks off the chill in Maine in May, Sept, Oct. Easy to use. Made a teak collar for thru deck to provide level surface for charlie noble. Had a fabricator make a SS over cap so that sheet won't get caught and can step on. Must be removed to use stove. I will try to post a photo of the deck cap, but I have not had luck posting photos here. Nope, didn't work


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Overnight Temps in the 50's this weekend. We will be using ours for the first time this fall.

For all of you guys fabricating your own cap guards, you don't need to. Look at John Pollards photo. Dickinson makes a cap guard that does not require removal to use while under sail.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

tdw said:


> although in one of the other threads someone did mention that when vented outside the gas heaters are not all that wet.


Furry Friend, the Dickinson properly installed actually _dries_ the cabin very nicely.
No more condensation inside the boat on a chilly Fall or Spring night.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

_Whine, whine, whine... _if you think that is bad, wait until she wants to get married...  Ask TB about wedding bills. 


sailortjk1 said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> _Whine, whine, whine... _if you think that is bad, wait until she wants to get married...  Ask TB about wedding bills.


Dog, thats my _younger_ daughter, Melissa.
She is 16 now and the photo is two years old! OMG, I am in soo much trouble. And guess what, Samantha turned 18 this year!! Please Dear God, no weddings for at least 7 more years.

You guys can get back on topic anytime you like.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You need a good shotgun... take it apart and clean it when you know a boyfriend is about to come over... at least that's what my friend is planning on doing. 


sailortjk1 said:


> Dog, thats my _younger_ daughter, Melissa.
> She is 16 now and the photo is two years old! OMG, I am in soo much trouble. And guess what, Samantha turned 18 this year!! Please Dear God, no weddings for at least 7 more years.
> 
> You guys can get back on topic anytime you like.


As for heaters, I like the little Dickinson ones, and have used them on a few OPYC boats..  There's also a company that makes a small solid-fuel, wood pellet heater that was quite nice, but not so practical for cruising long-distance.

Diesel and propane are the two best fuel choices IMHO, and most boats have both aboard already. However, I think the Webasto/Espar forced air heaters are probably a bit more efficient, and the stack is generally less obvious. The Dickinsons win on appearance though.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Still,
Just recieved an e-mail alert,
Go 2marine is offering some savings on Diesel Heaters.
Dickinson Marine - Antarctic Diesel Boat Heaters


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Quick question re Kerosene.

Am I right in believing that diesel burners work with Kero or is it that diesel heaters are compatible with kero if you fit different burners ?

I tend to go for diesel as the right fuel when away for a long time but for cruises closer to civilisation I'd lean towards Kero. Reason being I like Kero as fuel for heating (it's cheap, burns well and it about as efficient as diesel) but don't want to have to carry large amounts of the stuff for long distance stuff.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you google that thought, you get mostly hits on running Kero in a Diesel truck... they have issues, apparently with the 'lubricity' of Kero.

A couple of hits discussed using Kero/Diesel interchangeably in space heaters, and mostly mention a lower BTU output with kerosene and a bit of odour perhaps from the burner when using crossover fuel this way.

I'd think that you may not need to change burners per se, but may need to tweak air/fuel mixture (if you're able to) to clean up the flame and avoid smell and soot.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

sailortjk1 said:


> Still,
> Just recieved an e-mail alert,
> Go 2marine is offering some savings on Diesel Heaters.
> Dickinson Marine - Antarctic Diesel Boat Heaters


Thanks Tim...I'll check it out.



tdw said:


> When I was a young fella and still pretty much in hippy mode I yearned for a wood fire in a boat but they are (as someone else mentioned) not particularly efficient and where do you keep the wood pile ?
> 
> RainDrop old mate its a nice idea but I'm afraid it has whiskers on it.


 Womby.. You must have snuck this one by me..Sorry for the mix up on the PM.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Stillraining said:


> Thanks Tim...I'll check it out.
> 
> Womby.. You must have snuck this one by me..Sorry for the mix up on the PM.


You are forgiven my son . Go forth and sin no more !! 

Faster,

I knew that kero works in diesel engines but as you note it also grinds the bejesus out of the block.

Kero can smoke but usually a bit of adjustment takes care of that and to my mind the smell of kero (within reason) is nowhere near as 'orrible as diesel.

McAffee's book on "The Warm Dry Boat" puts kero and diesel pretty much on par BTU output wise. It's also cheaper than diesel.

Problem is buying it in bulk can be problematic and who wants yet another damned fuel on board should one need to store twenty or thirty gallons of the stuff. A gallon or so for a short midwinter cruise would be no big deal however.

It was just a thought.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Kero can smoke but usually a bit of adjustment takes care of that and to my mind the smell of kero (within reason) is nowhere near as 'orrible as diesel.
> 
> McAffee's book on "The Warm Dry Boat" puts kero and diesel pretty much on par BTU output wise. It's also cheaper than diesel.
> 
> ...


If they had similar output, if it were me, I'd pick kero every time over diesel - even if it meant carrying another fuel... but how much are we talking about here?

Anyone know how much fuel these beasties chew per hour - in real life??

Just curious..


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

OK...Looks like diesel it is then...

My reasoning

1) Plenty of available fuel @ 120 gal on board
2) Best BTU output compared to others
3) Not as clean as Propane but cleaner then wood ( would have been nice to burn all that paper trash accumulation on board though )
4) Seems people enjoy theirs just as much as thoes with propane
5) Will be easier to plumb in ( I think)

My only caveat is As of right now I have no fuel gages in the diesel tanks so gaging remaining fuel will be harder to do then just monitoring engine usage.

Ray said his burns about a gal per hour... (Edit.. Per *day not per hour* ) but Dickinson's web site quotes 1+ to 3+ per hour ( Edit.. *day* )so we will see. I hope its not always the latter..

And speaking of Whiskers and wood stoves on boats...Well... I can still wrap my arms around the idea and get that warm "Fuzzy" feeling.....maybe on the next boat... after all...I'll be able to play the part better by then..

Thanks to everyone for this one..

I will be ordering in a month or two ..Hopefully that sale will still be on ..Thanks again everyone.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> Ray said his burns about a gal per hour but Dickinson's web site quotes 1+ to 3+ an hour so we will see. I hope its not always the latter


Oops. Ours burns up to 1 gallon per *day* running 24/7, confirmed by the previous owner who was a liveaboard. We have a fully insulated hull, so once we get the boat warmed up, we can have it on a pretty low setting.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

erps said:


> Oops. Ours burns up to 1 gallon per *day* running 24/7, confirmed by the previous owner who was a liveaboard. We have a fully insulated hull, so once we get the boat warmed up, we can have it on a pretty low setting.


Ray that wasent your oops that was mine ...I ment per day not per hour...sorry.. ..I will go back and edit that thanks.

My wife still wants wood the battle may continue...


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Put her in charge of supplying the stove with the wood and she might change her tune. If you're going to run the Antartic stove off your main fuel tank, you'll also need to budget for a small fuel supply pump that you can get from NAPA. Either that or a day tank.

BTW. I'll be jumping in the water sometime this month to change my shaft zinc. When I firm up a weekend I'll drop you a note so you can leave a zinc in your cockpit or something and I'll change yours too if it needs it.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

erps said:


> Put her in charge of supplying the stove with the wood and she might change her tune. If you're going to run the Antartic stove off your main fuel tank, you'll also need to budget for a small fuel supply pump that you can get from NAPA. Either that or a day tank.
> 
> BTW. I'll be jumping in the water sometime this month to change my shaft zinc. When I firm up a weekend I'll drop you a note so you can leave a zinc in your cockpit or something and I'll change yours too if it needs it.


LOL...Shes a feisty little bugger and puts up our years supply of cord wood right along side of me...

Thanks a bunch for the offer Ray.. But all zincs were just newly installed so only been in the water what 2 months now..Might have you just take a quick peek just to make sure I dont have a horrendous stray current leak swallowing them up though.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I suggested to the Admiral that we should have a heater like Okamato's but she nixed the idea. After she came down from the ceiling, she suggested that body heat was enough if we insulated the outside of our boat with Hawaii. Anyone got a good cure for a black eye?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Hawai'i is a pretty popular insulation material, but I prefer the high R factor of Rum.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

RainDrop,

I reckon you have made the right decision based on where you live.

Cameron,

Almost anywhere in OZ you would need no more than a few litres a day. Let's face it there are not many places down here where you would need to run a heater 24 hours a day, usually only five or six hours in the evening, absolute max. 12 hours a day. That's why I like the idea of kero for short cruises as we'd only need to carry a couple of gallons. Longer term and if heading to seriously cold climates you'd have to install a permanent tank for large quantity of kero and I don't see that as being worthwhile. Ergo, diesel.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> Cameron,
> 
> Almost anywhere in OZ you would need no more than a few litres a day. Let's face it there are not many places down here where you would need to run a heater 24 hours a day, usually only five or six hours in the evening, absolute max. 12 hours a day. That's why I like the idea of kero for short cruises as we'd only need to carry a couple of gallons. Longer term and if heading to seriously cold climates you'd have to install a permanent tank for large quantity of kero and I don't see that as being worthwhile. Ergo, diesel.


Agreed that Diesel makes the most sense from a long-distance viewpoint, but it sounds like one of those rectangular 1-gallon kero tins strapped forward of the bulkhead (ie. behind the heater on the other side of the bulkhead) would do the trick without looking too ugly, being difficult to top up (at anchor!) from plastic bottles or getting in the way too much.

Something to think about, anyways..


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I believe it was the Pardeys who installed a daytank under the deck, well strapped in, and with a fuel fill passing through to the deck itself. That way, their "lamp oil tap" and their stove (kerosene? diesel? Dunno) worked exclusively by gravity and yet was out of the way, up in "the rafters".


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Valiente said:


> I believe it was the Pardeys who installed a daytank under the deck, well strapped in, and with a fuel fill passing through to the deck itself. That way, their "lamp oil tap" and their stove (kerosene? diesel? Dunno) worked exclusively by gravity and yet was out of the way, up in "the rafters".


Sounds practical... not sure you'd want to have the filling point for a heater on deck though if the tank needs to be re-filled every day or so.

Aside from the risk of water getting in (assuming the reason you're using the heater is that it's wet and cold), I'd think re-filling the day tank from the comfort of a warm and cozy cabin would be much more pleasant. 

Cameron


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Hartley18 said:


> ...I'd think re-filling the day tank from the comfort of a warm and cozy cabin would be much more pleasant.


Unless you spilled!

Therein was the only real downside to bulkhead/cabin mounted diesel/kero heaters from our perspective: Potential odor from unburned or spilled fuel.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

The PO of my boat mounted a 2.5 gallon diesel tank on the cabin top for the Dickerson heater.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

So if you dont have a day tank does that mean a Diesel heater has to have an electrical pump running all the time to feed it? IF so this is another wrench in the cog-works...Ray mentioned a pump but I thought that was for daily transfer to an internal tank or something...The pictures of the Dickerson's appeared to have a small tank mounted on the front?..I guess I really need to sit down with him and have it all explained.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Stillraining said:


> So if you dont have a day tank does that mean a Diesel heater has to have an electrical pump running all the time to feed it? IF so this is another wrench in the cog-works...Ray mentioned a pump but I thought that was for daily transfer to an internal tank or something...The pictures of the Dickerson's appeared to have a small tank mounted on the front?..I guess I really need to sit down with him and have it all explained.


Call the folks at Dickinson -- I found them to be very helpful and friendly. They'll get you squared away.

That was another consideration for going with propane -- the only electricity necessary was what little is used (if any?) to keep the remote solenoid open. And even that can be by-passed in a pinch. Running the internal fan is optional -- helpful but not necessary.


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## SteveCox (Jul 12, 2006)

I have seen some diesel day tanks plumbed to the return from the engine to the tank. The return line goes from the engine to the tank and when it is full there is a return line to the main fuel tank that way the day tank is filled every time you run the engine. It seemed pretty convenient to me.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

We don't have a day tank in our application. We have a low pressure pump plumbed in to the main fuel supply line after the Racor filter. It's convenient. I don't worry about how to manually transfer fuel from one container to another. I still spill milk at the dinner table when filling my glass so a day tank for diesel wouldn't work for me.

SteveCox's suggestion sounds interesting too, depending on how often you run your motor.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Hartley18 said:


> Aside from the risk of water getting in (assuming the reason you're using the heater is that it's wet and cold), I'd think re-filling the day tank from the comfort of a warm and cozy cabin would be much more pleasant.


We're talking the Pardeys...their ideas about convenience aren't necessarily the same as yours and mine. I view their DVDs as part "great ideas!" and part cautionary tale.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

I might have as many stoves in my garage as Mainsail has anchors in his by the time Im through with this...


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

SteveCox said:


> I have seen some diesel day tanks plumbed to the return from the engine to the tank. The return line goes from the engine to the tank and when it is full there is a return line to the main fuel tank that way the day tank is filled every time you run the engine. It seemed pretty convenient to me.


Installing it this way will mean you don't have to bleed this system. This is the preferred way to install an oil heater in a home.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Freesail99 said:


> Installing it this way will mean you don't have to bleed this system. This is the preferred way to install an oil heater in a home.


I'd worry about doing this on a boat though.. it means you have pressurised fuel lines (not much pressure, but still some) running within the cabin.

Any sort of leak is not only the mess it would be at home - in the confined space of a yacht it could empty your fuel tank (leaving you stranded someplace) and be a lethal fire risk if mixed with the wrong sort of automatic electric bilge pump..

Cameron


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

JohnRPollard said:


> Unless you spilled!
> 
> Therein was the only real downside to bulkhead/cabin mounted diesel/kero heaters from our perspective: Potential odor from unburned or spilled fuel.


Kero wouldn't be too bad - after all, that's what they use for dry-cleaning. 

Diesel would be problem though.. particularly on nice new cushions! 

Cameron


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

> I'd worry about doing this on a boat though.. it means you have pressurised fuel lines (not much pressure, but still some) running within the cabin.
> 
> Any sort of leak is not only the mess it would be at home - in the confined space of a yacht it could empty your fuel tank (leaving you stranded someplace) and be a lethal fire risk if mixed with the wrong sort of automatic electric bilge pump..


To be honest with you I don't think it is really pressurised at all. I can't recall ever even hearing a hiss or the fuel spraying in any way if I had to remove a line from the system and broke a seal. All it is, is a loop. You'll get more spill and smells without it.


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