# What do you do with garbage during an offshore voyage.



## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

This is something I have been wondering about lately, while it seems like it will be several more years before I am ready to do any bluewater sailing, I was wondering what the offshore sailors do with their garbage during long passages. I would assume that a significant amount of waste is created during passages that are several weeks long, but I wouldn't think it would be allowed to dump it overboard so how do you store so much waste onboard. I am specifically curious about how those individuals who do nonstop circumnavigations manage this because they must produce an astronomical amount of waste.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Well, you can't create more waste than you bring with you.

There was an interesting thread on this on CF a couple of years ago where a couple of nit wits filmed themselves throwing 45 gallon fuel drums overboard in the ocean.

So some of them are throwing it overboard. 

Most ocean going yachts have a Y valve so you can pump your human waste directly overboard, which is legal.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

You put it in trash bags and you bring it to land with you. You will have empty cans from canned food. You will have empty cardboard and plastic packages from food items and you can rinse food cans with sea water so they don't smell so you can have "clean" trash and mash them and pack them in a garbage bag and bring them back. 

They will be lighter because they are empty and they will take up less room because they can be smashed flat. If you fish, you can throw the fish parts back in the sea because they will be eaten by other things. 

But please please don't throw non biodegradable trash in the ocean.

This is an animated depiction of the growth of the floating garbage fields in the oceans.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

Ok so basically all of the non food waste is crushed up and you keep on board. Is it ok to throw food waste overboard, like rottten/sprouted potatoes and such.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I found the thread I was thinking of on CF it's called "dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean" if you're curious, over 100 posts. It's got a video link.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

You have to make some educated decisions involving the nature of the waste and the level of development of your destination. For starters, try to reduce the waste you will produce by shopping wisely. A simple example, don't buy cases of water bottles if you can avoid it. This means having a freshwater system onboard that will provide you with safe, palatable water (water maker, clean tanks, chlorination if needed, filtering onboard). The destination matters. If you are in the developing world there likely is no proper waste handling available. In some places in the Caribbean guys will offer to take your garbage bag for a modest fee. They just take it a block or two away and dump it in a convenient vacant lot. What we have done when well away from land, and as an environmentalist I feel OK about: organics go in the ocean - they will be consumed either by micro or macro organisms, in deep water cans and bottles (open!) go in the water. They will decompose a lot more safely (or just sit there) in 2+ miles of water than in a garbage dump on land. Aluminum cans are a possible exception here since their scrap value is high. In many places (not all), locals are happy to get these cans and they get recycled. Paper gets torn-up and goes overboard as well.That leaves plastics which are a big problem. These go ashore. In some places people will repurpose some kinds of plastic containers, but much plastic will end up being disposed of in less than ideal circumstances - this is why it is a good idea to reduce the number of disposable plastic containers you bring with you. BTW, we have dropped a few messages in wind bottles without a return so far.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Dump nothing but food or food waste, MARPOL regulations, an International treaty, like someone said you've only got whatever fit in the boat when you left the dock, not like you have to throw out the newspaper everyday.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

It's good you specified international waters, because in any countries territorial waters, you are likely to be subject to at least two nations marine envirinmental laws. 

The flag state, or where the vessel is registered. Often US if you're American or Canada if you're Canadian etc.

And, the port state, so the countries waters that you are visiting.

In international waters you will most likely be primarily accountable to only your flag states environmental laws.

I would exercise caution regarding throwing cans and bottles overboard. Times are changing, what flew 10 or 20 years ago, may not fly now.

Some busy commercial shipping routes are like junk yards on the bottom of the ocean. 

I am aware of a diver that dove out where the galley porthole would have been on the ship that regularly docked there. Beneath the porthole was a large, deep pile of garbage. Mostly empty cans and broken dishes, because the cooks would just toss dishes out the window when they broke while being washed.

The world's sea beds are being destroyed by individuals who say my one little anchor won't hurt this coral bed, or a trawler who drags his one net over the bottom, destroying habitat and one guy throwing his soup cans over the side.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

killarney_sailor said:


> What we have done when well away from land, and as an environmentalist I feel OK about: ....in deep water cans and bottles (open!) go in the water.


If you're throwing cans and bottles into the ocean, in violation of MARPOL regulations, I don't think you can consider yourself much of an environmentalist.

Why not smash the cans and transport them, along with the bottles, and do your best to see that they get recycled. You carried them out to sea. It doesn't take much effort to transport them back empty.


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## Turnin Turtle (Jun 25, 2016)

Bring the stuff in sturdy watertight seal-able tubs such as 5 gallon plastic "paint cans" with lids. Bring one spare empty. As you empty a tub of food... fill it with the trash and compact it down.

On a short trip you just need one full and one empty... and end up with one partly full of trash, the other empty (maybe if you didn't bring more food than you needed)

Long trip you should average 3 full of trash for every 5 you emptied. The empties can be nest-stacked to save some space.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Questions like this are ripe for arguments over the environment. We'll see. 

Scale is often lost in the rhetoric. If every cruiser tossed all their metal food cans into international waters 2nm deep (as noted above), it wouldn't amass the volume in a thousand years of one single sunken wreck. There are tens of thousands of wrecks on the seafloor, whose metal is not destroying the environment. In fact, there have been environmental programs to intentionally place old steel wrecks on the sea floor as artificial reefs. Your soup can, in 10,000 feet of water, certainly isn't going to become a reef, but it also isn't going to destroy the environment. Burying it in the dirt ashore is no different. IMO.

Generally, I don't travel offshore long enough to bother discarding any trash overboard. I bring it all to shore, where it finds it's way to a hole in the ground, along with the plastic bag I put it in. This is considered environmentally friendly? 

If I do, organics are separated and go over first. Cans next. Plastic never.

Best way to limit packaging trash at sea, is to have reusable containers that you repackage into. Of course, your packaging typically goes back to that hole in the ground instead. Across the globe, recycling is pretty limited. Oddly enough, with all the environmental rules in RI, our marina does not separate and recycle.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

duchess of montrose said:


> I was wondering what the offshore sailors do with their garbage during long passages.


I follow the rules, which have changed recently. The MARPOL Annex V was updated in 2012. You can read the official summary here.

The big change is that domestic waste (cans, bottles, cardboard, paper) are no longer permitted for direct discharge. This is a major pain to comply with but those are the rules. It does mean much more attention to garbage management including packing garbage to minimize space.

Plastics have been prohibited for years under Annex V. Oil and other petroleum products are prohibited under Annex I. Sewage is permitted beyond 12 nm from shore under Annex IV.

The key continues to be not to take anything on board that can be avoided. Choose carefully what you do carry. For example, if you can still find cans with rolled edges at both ends flattening will be easier and more effective. Reusable storage containers help tremendously as do reusable drinking containers. Dinghies go upside down on the foredeck offshore so using them as a trash receptacle doesn't work. Trash storage may be in a sail locker, a cockpit locker, or even the anchor locker. Sometimes it ends up on the floor in my cabin (one of the joys of being skipper). You have to pack the trash to conserve space. I double bag to reduce spills. The number of bags depends greatly on how well crew get on board with packing the trash. Two or three large bags are usual for four people offshore for two weeks. Inshore when the dinghy may be in davits I agree with the earlier point of storing trash in the dinghy, being careful that the bag doesn't blow out.

We all have to make our own judgments. It is an unfortunate truth (not an Inconvenient Truth - that is something else *grin*) that waste is not always handled well in many of the cruising grounds we travel in. Where it is legal a trash fire on the beach may be more responsible than using local waste management. Regardless, my approach is to follow the rules (I'm funny that way). More places are taking waste disposal seriously which is good news.

It is up to us to do our parts.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Good for you SVauspicious. Yes, indeed the rules have changed, as has public perception and oversight.

The days of touching up the varnish on the propane locker and tossing the partially empty can over the side, brush and all are over, or at least they should be.

I have actually heard you mention in a previous post your waste management plan, which likely includes a garbage log. Some carribean or south Pacific back water may not give a hoot about your garbage log. Any responsible government may take an interest upon arrival though.

Maybe we aren't quite to the point yet where customs officers check garbage logs (after all, international waste is more of a CG concern than a customs issue), maybe we aren't even to the point yet where most people even have them, but it won't be long until yachts in international waters will have no choice but to log their garbage.

There would be no need for waste management plans and garbage logs if people behaved responsibly by choice, but we all know how that works.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

We're coastal sailors and do no long offshore cruising. Still, garbage is a finite storage problem, just like tankage. If a boat's lockers are stuffed full when you cast off for a few weeks of even coastal sailing, your trash 'tankage' is undersized. 

Removing as much future trash before it goes onboard (like many have mentioned), is first. Then it's important for us to recycle, compress, sort as much as possible to reduce volume. That leaves (in our case) a smaller volume of organic material in small bags. 

It's surprising how fast garbage builds up on a coastal sailboat. We don't throw a lot of organic material overboard with shoreside disposal more readily available. 

In our case, we end up storing recyclables and small bags of organic waste, in cockpit lockers. Our old boat has huge storage in these lockers. 

The simple system we use to stow the above are tall kitchen waste bins. The are self stowing nesting inside each other. No garbage = 1 empty bin. 

Once we're out a day or so, we end up with two bins; one holds small bags of organics, the other recyclables. 

Then it's usually recyclables that tops a bin, and we un-nest another bin and begin filling that. At this point, we have just 3 bins permenantly onboard. With plans to be off longer in the future, I'll add a couple more to the nest which takes up no extra space, when nested. 

But this system only works if you have the volume to start with. I see trash as a tankage issue on our boat. The longer we can stay out on our tankage, the better.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I did know about the MARPOL changes. In 2012 we were in the southern Indian Ocean and the news did not get much notice there. I still think what happens to trash like cans and bottles depends on what the alternatives are. In much of the world recycling and proper landfills do not exist. A clean can dropped in the deep ocean is better placed than one that ends up dumped at the edge of a village in a poor country where it will sit for decades before it rusts away. A bottle won't even rust and be there for centuries.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Arcb said:


> Good for you SVauspicious. Yes, indeed the rules have changed, as has public perception and oversight.





Arcb said:


> I have actually heard you mention in a previous post your waste management plan, which likely includes a garbage log.


It is worth noting that boats over 40' (actually 12 meters, so a little over 40') must have a waste management plan. Most boats meet that requirement with a placard from West Marine. To my knowledge those have still not been updated for MARPOL 2012.

I do indeed have a written waste management plan. I have done my best to be consistent with international and US law. I'm happy to share my plan http://auspiciousworks.com/WasteManagement.pdf

I do not have a garbage log as there is no legal requirement for one that I am aware of. Please correct me if you can find one. I certainly don't log pitching the galley garbage bowl after each meal. If something extraordinary happens (like 20 lbs of potatoes going liquid) it will likely end up in the ship's log just because it becomes a major evolution.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

killarney_sailor said:


> I still think what happens to trash like cans and bottles depends on what the alternatives are.


I agree with you. I think the update should have excluded boats below 20 meters, but it didn't.

I'm a rule-bound guy. I'll object, write letters, testify and still follow the rules. That's me.

Fundamentally, if you had room to carry it on the boat you have room to carry it off the boat. I still dislike having to pack and repack and re-repack garbage while offshore. PITA.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Where ever you put it make sure you double bag it and don't put it in an area that has non-skid. You would be surprised how quick bilge pumps foul with four pounds of coffee grounds being washed to them from a split rudder post. Don't ask me how I know. 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

In Canada (I don't know US regulations very well) commercial operators are required to maintain garbage records. 

I wasn't sure if you were pleasure or commercial. Nor do I know if US has the same requirement. Going forward, I suspect the regulations for record keeping will start to include pleasure craft. I wouldn't be surprised if Europe already has.

In Canada, this is "regulations for the prevention of pollution from ships and for dangerous cargoes" division 5.

Edit: Logging of oily discharge is required. There are exemptions in place for record keeping requirements, it's complicated, that's why I was just guessing that you might keep a garbage record.

It's enough to say the noose is tightening and people will have fewer and fewer opportunities to pollute as the rules evolve.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Arcb said:


> In Canada (I don't know US regulations very well) all commercial operators over 5 tons are required to maintain garbage records.
> 
> I wasn't sure if you were pleasure or commercial. Nor do I know if US has the same requirement. Going forward, I suspect the regulations for record keeping will start to include pleasure craft. I wouldn't be surprised if Europe already has.
> 
> In Canada, this is "regulations for the prevention of pollution from ships and for dangerous cargoes" division 5.


MARPOL is an international agreement under IMO. I think every maritime nation in the world is a signatory. Our sovereign countries then implement the agreement in domestic regulation. It sounds like Canada has added a logging requirement which is well within your rights. What applies only to nationals and what can be imposed on visiting boats and ships differs. I defer to maritime attorneys and do what they say. *grin*

Commercial v. recreational follows the boat, not the skipper. My delivery work is all recreational boats. Of course my own boat is recreational. I try to keep up with everything but there could be a US logging requirement for commercial platforms I am not aware of.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

^^^ I agree with this assessment. I do not log garbage on my pleasure vessel. Just oily waste. 

It's really easy. I do one, maybe two oil changes a year. It goes in my regular log book something like "1 oil filter and 4 gallons of oil disposed of ashore to disposal facility provided by Bob's Marina". 

My part time delivery business focusses entirely on commercial clients, I have never done a pleasure craft delivery. For garbage logging when I'm doing a delivery on a commercial vessel, it's again very easy. Regular log book "3 bags of household waste and one tire disposed of in dumpster on Bob street wharf" type of thing.

It's amazing how much more I think about stuff when I know I'm going to have to write it down.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

As killarney_sailor writes, a big problem with bringing trash to shore is what happens to it then. In many places, if it is not simply dumped in some undeveloped land, it will get put onto a perpetually smoldering trash pile. Either way, much of the refuse finds its way into the ocean, be it by wind, rain, storm surge, or dump truck. This problem is exacerbated by people who store their trash in plastic bags. The plastic bags become a big problem by themselves, whether stored on top of the land or partially burned. 

In my mind, the MARPOL rules have good intentions, but the unintended consequences are probably worse than the original problem. They also put an undue burden on small, destination islands that are ill-equipped to store visitors' non-degradable trash.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Paper and metal typically gets tossed overboard, where it disintegrates and rusts without harming a thing. Plastic never goes into the ocean.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jwing said:


> ....In my mind, the MARPOL rules have good intentions, but the unintended consequences are probably worse than the original problem. They also put an undue burden on small, destination islands that are ill-equipped to store visitors' non-degradable trash.


Perfectly, well said.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

First thing is don't take it with you in the first place. Remove and discard as much of the packaging as you can before it goes on the boat. Surprising how little will be left after you do that. Underway, compress plastic containers as much as possible and stow in a trash bag when you consume the contents, dump at your destination. Cans, both aluminum and steel, are biodgradable in short order in sea water so put holes in both ends and toss overboard. Bust the bottoms out of Glass bottles and chuck them overboard. Will make great octopus homes. We are not talking about in shore coastal cruising or anchorages where it's not a big thing to bag all your refuse and dispose on shore but open ocean sailing. Be aware that most out of the way cruising destinations will not have any community trash service. At best they will have a dump in some ravine or each home will burn it's trash in a barrel. Not uncommon for the locals to dump trash along side the road or other not so out of the way place. Seems to be a favorite trick not only in out of the way places but anywhere.


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

roverhi said:


> First thing is don't take it with you in the first place. Remove and discard as much of the packaging as you can before it goes on the boat. Surprising how little will be left after you do that.


Exactly! Remove stuff from cardboard on shore and recycle and label inside bags with a sharpie. Takes up less room and less trash aboard. Also less chance of critters.

No disposable water bottles allowed.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

midwesterner said:


> If you're throwing cans and bottles into the ocean, in violation of MARPOL regulations, I don't think you can consider yourself much of an environmentalist.
> 
> Why not smash the cans and transport them, along with the bottles, and do your best to see that they get recycled. You carried them out to sea. It doesn't take much effort to transport them back empty.


What makes you thing it is environmentally less friendly to throw a glass bottle overboard than it is to throw it in a landfill or recycle it?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> I agree with you. I think the update should have excluded boats below 20 meters, but it didn't.
> 
> I'm a rule-bound guy. I'll object, write letters, testify and still follow the rules. That's me.
> 
> Fundamentally, if you had room to carry it on the boat you have room to carry it off the boat. I still dislike having to pack and repack and re-repack garbage while offshore. PITA.


I have no issues with keeping the stuff onboard if it makes sense to do so. We certainly have room. My concern is what will happen to it when we reach shore. If our next stop is Brisbane or New York we will separate garbage to make it easier to recycle glass, plastic, and metals and perhaps even organics. If we will not be stopping in a place with an advanced economy and proper disposal options for many months then then it is something different, although we have carried plastics for many months. I can't imagine anyone here saying they would carry their organic wastes for months until they could be disposed of following the rules. By this logic we should have massive holding tanks and pump out when we get to the next sanitary station.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

The solution to pollution is dilution, so arguably heaving degradable material like metal, glass and certainly biological waste, can be environmentally benign. 

Not producing the waste in the first place is best choice. Recycling is a distant second option where facilities exist to do so. Concentrating the waste into localized garbage dumps is the worst outcome. If the countries you are visiting lacks proper recycling facilities, or properly engineered landfills, collecting your waste and depositing it in these lands is worse than dumping at sea. 

With regard to recycling though, even the best processes are rarely benign. It takes huge amounts of energy and other resources to recycle material. In most cases these processes create other wastes that aren’t easily managed. Recycling is definitely not the panacea.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

midwesterner said:


> If you're throwing cans and bottles into the ocean, in violation of MARPOL regulations, I don't think you can consider yourself much of an environmentalist.
> 
> Why not smash the cans and transport them, along with the bottles, and do your best to see that they get recycled. You carried them out to sea. It doesn't take much effort to transport them back empty.


The question was asked about waste on an offshore voyage rather than on a coastal cruise. Most places in the world do not have recycling so your choice is dropping paper, cans and bottles (not plastic for sure) into the sea or having them tossed on a garbage dump or garbage fire in some poor place. You mention that it Ok to put fish waste into the sea. How is this different from potato peelings of human sewage for that matter?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Ya, it's pretty hard to argue with necessity. If you really can't get to a disposal facility because you are in Haiti, it's pretty hard to argue with going 12 miles offshore and dropping a few carrot cans over the side.

The problem is, that isn't what yachtsman have been doing for the last 40 years. They've been throwing over fuel drums and 1 gallon paint cans and oil filters, because even though theyown a half million dollar yacht, they don't want to pay the $4 disposal fee once they reached shore. 

If somebody is being genuinely pragmatic the old rules make sense, unfortunately, I think a lot more were just being lazy.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arcb said:


> ....The problem is, that isn't what yachtsman have been doing for the last 40 years. They've been throwing over fuel drums and 1 gallon paint cans and oil filters, because even though theyown a half million dollar yacht, they don't want to pay the $4 disposal fee once they reached shore......


In my 40+ years on the water, I've never known anyone to do this, let alone anyone with a "half million dollar yacht". Most boaters are environmentally friendly, at least from a pragmatic point of view. Probably better defined as conservationists, than environmentalists. They don't all follow all the rules, as some really are like speed limits, but I know no one who would toss paint in the water.

I'm sure it's been done. Just no way you can paint 40 years of yachtsman with such a wide brush.

Maybe Canada is different. We don't have disposal fees for oil. There are places that are required to take it. My mechanic actually has a waste oil heater that heats his workspace. He'll take it all.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

So you didn't watch the videos of the guys throwing the fuel drums over board? Texaco drums? I doubt they were Canadian.

Did you read how many cruisers on CF defended the practice?

I'm not saying every one does it, but I've seen evidence of enough people doing it that I'm convinced it happens more than just that once on YouTube.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

In my years in the water we never hesitated to throw scrap food overboard. If we were in deep water like over 1000 feet we would use the hydraulic handle to pop the bottoms off glass bottles and drop them too. Paper, plastic, used oil filters, used oil all went ashore and were disposed of properly. One boat I spent quite a few years on we had the dinghy on deck right side up so that was a natural place to put the trash till we got ashore. Had one of those bungee nets Toledo them from getting sucked out in a blow. 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arcb said:


> So you didn't watch the videos of the guys throwing the fuel drums over board? Texaco drums? I doubt they were Canadian.
> 
> Did you read how many cruisers on CF defended the practice?
> 
> I'm not saying every one does it, but I've seen evidence of enough people doing it that I'm convinced it happens more than just that once on YouTube.


Yes, I have. No way I infer it's routine. It's anecdotal.

Saw a guy the other day with a full face tattoo and another who liked it. I didn't draw the conclusion that most were going to get one.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Sure, nothing more conservationist than a new 45' fiberglass powerboat with twin 400 horsepower gas engines.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

From a guy who lives his life from a practical and prudent perspective it is sure entertaining to follow you guys trying to twist your actions to be "better for the environment" than everyone else. Meanwhile, you seem to be living lives of consumption and not producing much to be of help to your fellow man. The oceans survived the massive pollution and destruction of WWII, I think they will survive the disruptions of a few yacht club boys or some self serving folks trying to escape from the realities of the world.....

Go ahead, fire away........


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Just getting back to practicalities.

When we started our first legs were 1,000nm, 1,000 then 3,200nms.

We did think the long one would be a problem as we didn't have refrigeration at the time.

Much packaging was left ashore.

We cut both ends of tin cans and flattened the cylinder. Plastic we cut up with scissors until it was flat.

Food went overboard obviously. As did non plasticated cardboard and paper. 
Paper with plastic films, choccie wrapers etc can be compressed and take up little space.
So fattened trash doesn't take much room at all.

The boat has an aft lazarette next to the quadrant where the garbage bags would go tied at the mouth by string to facilitate getting them out of the deep lazarette.

That was fine for the longest passages. 

For a crew of 4 or more its going to be a tad more difficult... but remember there is very few really long passages.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

killarney_sailor said:


> I can't imagine anyone here saying they would carry their organic wastes for months until they could be disposed of following the rules.


Lets be very clear, MARPOL 2012 still allows both food wastes and sewage to be discharged into the sea more than 12 nm from land.



killarney_sailor said:


> Most places in the world do not have recycling so your choice is dropping paper, cans and bottles (not plastic for sure) into the sea or having them tossed on a garbage dump or garbage fire in some poor place.


I agree. Before MARPOL 2012 went into affect I tossed glass, metal, cardboard, and paper over the side offshore. I think that on the merits discussed here (poorer economies and sparse populations without good infrastructure for waste management) the IMO would have been well advised to provide a 20 m exclusion for domestic wastes. They weren't and they didn't so we have the rules as they now stand.

Again, food wastes and sewage still can go over the side.



Minnewaska said:


> In my 40+ years on the water, I've never known anyone to do this, let alone anyone with a "half million dollar yacht". Most boaters are environmentally friendly, at least from a pragmatic point of view.


I've only see it once and that was on a much less expensive boat.

Come to think of it we've probably all seen it more than we think from oily bilge water pumped overboard.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> Just getting back to practicalities.


I'm taking a Valiant 42 1,500 nm soon. Food waste and sewage go overboard. Domestic waste will be packed and bagged because those are the rules. There is likely to be grumbling and whining on my part. No rule against that. *grin* A key will be cooperation from the crew. I think we'll be fine.

Some boats either because they are smaller or heavily loaded will have greater challenges. I've had to divert for fuel and for water before. I can't imagine having to divert to dispose of garbage. Can you picture taking a boat from Newport to Tortola and having to spend $300 to check into the Bahamas (plus a two day hit from your planned route) just to get rid of trash? "Hello Mr. Boat Owner, it cost you an extra $1,200 for day rate, fuel, and C&I fees to dump trash."

I've already slept with trash bags in the corner of my bunk. That's a pretty practical reality. *grin* I don't want it to become the norm.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I think of greater impact is that there will not be a trail of tea bags, old bingo cards and twinkie wrappers behind the "Carnivale Emerald" as she steams through pristine waters with however many they pack on those floating amusement parks.


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

I have a question. We often burn trash below the high water mark in Northern British Columbia because we were told that is how they do it here, of course retrieving anything that didn't burn. Could you make a miniature burn barrel on board? I was even thinking of a solar oven that would superheat everthing I considered trash and reduce to it's basic elements. Plastics, wrapping everything but metal could be eliminated that way...
Just thinking...


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

newt said:


> I have a question. We often burn trash below the high water mark in Northern British Columbia because we were told that is how they do it here, of course retrieving anything that didn't burn. Could you make a miniature burn barrel on board? I was even thinking of a solar oven that would superheat everthing I considered trash and reduce to it's basic elements. Plastics, wrapping everything but metal could be eliminated that way...
> Just thinking...


I've been waiting for the right deal to happen along on a Sardine or Ship Mate for my galley. I don't see why much organic waste can't be burned in a solid fuel galley stove.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Why would one even consider not throwing organic waste overboard? It will be food for something in the ocean.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

[quote4] I don't see why much organic waste can't be burned in a solid fuel galley stove.[/quote]

Sorry, but the ideas of burning trash on a boat are totally and utterly off with the pixies.

It just reeks of folks who have never done a passage not reading posts of people who have.

Really folks are you going to waste propane gas, a fossil fuel, on cooking food in till its back ash?

And somehow call this environmental?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> [quote4] I don't see why much organic waste can't be burned in a solid fuel galley stove.


Sorry, but the ideas of burning trash on a boat are totally and utterly off with the pixies.

It just reeks of folks who have never done a passage not reading posts of people who have.

Really folks are you going to waste propane gas, a fossil fuel, on cooking food in till its back ash?

And somehow call this environmental?[/QUOTE]

Newts example was Coastal Northern BC. I know the OP asked about offshore but almost everyone has mentioned disposal facilities in remote locations being a challenge. So I don't think extended coastal cruising in remote areas is that far off topic? Any way, if it is, sorry.

As you know from your experience, boats in places like northern BC, Alaska, Labrador, North Shore of Quebec, Newfoundland, Lake Superior etc. Run their heat a lot of the time. Wood stoves are a great source of heat in these areas because its dry and free.

So, let's assume I'm away from dock for a few weeks doing a circumnavigation of Anticosti Island in August. A short offshore passage is required to even get there, and once you're there, there aren't a lot of facilities. I drop the hook after arriving and immediately start the fire so I don't freeze to death in my sleep. Why would I not throw some spaghetti scrapings, egg shells and used kleenex in the fire?

As a pragmatic guy, would you seriously, open the hatch, let all the heat out, go on deck and throw your kleenex overboard rather than toss it in the fire?


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

Hold on guys- I am all for throwing food overboard. I enjoy watching the fish eat it. But I burn to keep the waste down, and recycle the metal. As I live on a boat now, I wish you would not consider me too off base. I am just saying that some waste like plastic, wrappers, even waxed paper and such could be burned effectively and thus not polluting the water. 
Now I am going to get a bunch of people saying I shouldn't be adding CO2 to the air. If you really feel that way...stop using fossil fuels. Your fuel in hours produces more than I could burn in days, if not years.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

Newt, buddy!

I see you changed your name back, good on you!

Haven't seen you since you tried to join SA.

I'm pleased you're still with us, still learning!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> It just reeks of folks who have never done a passage not reading posts of people who have.


3 pics I've taken on a couple of my dozens of offshore passages, granted it's an ice breaking science ship and not a Beneteau sailboat sailing between New York and Bermuda, but I think you're exaggerating my level of inexperience a little bit.

Ships offshore for weeks in ice conditions aren't really as different from cruising yachts as you think. Plus I have the benefit of years of taking bottom core samples, box core samples, water column samples, fish tissue samples, so I have a little bit of knowledge of what is actually in the water.

I have done offshore passages on smaller vessels (not as far as yours) but I don't have any pics that prove it (the horizon looks the same everywhere) on my phone to prove it, so since I'm being called out, this is what I have.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I understand the reason for the regulations, which have to be designed as "one size fits all even when the majority are idiots".

But as a diver who has recovered bottles (intact) form the 1700's, and partially filled rum bottles from the Prohibition era, I have to wonder if anyone a hundred years from now will be able to walk the shore collecting beach glass, if there's no more glass thrown in the sea.

No, I don't want bozo throwing the beer bottles off a swimming beach, but in a hundred plus feet of water? Not the same.

And while I used to think seagulls were useless flying rats, I've found out that if you have fried chicken, or spare ribs, or anything similar? You don't have any trash to throw out. The gulls are swooping and crying, so you toss the bones up in the air...and they never come back done. They get grabbed and swallowed whole.

Trash? Or bird food?

"No harm no foul". 

No need to leave any sign of your passing.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

What about the infamous "message in a bottle"?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Arcb said:


> Sorry, but the ideas of burning trash on a boat are totally and utterly off with the pixies.
> 
> It just reeks of folks who have never done a passage not reading posts of people who have.
> 
> ...


Newts example was Coastal Northern BC. I know the OP asked about offshore but almost everyone has mentioned disposal facilities in remote locations being a challenge. So I don't think extended coastal cruising in remote areas is that far off topic? Any way, if it is, sorry.

As you know from your experience, boats in places like northern BC, Alaska, Labrador, North Shore of Quebec, Newfoundland, Lake Superior etc. Run their heat a lot of the time. Wood stoves are a great source of heat in these areas because its dry and free.

So, let's assume I'm away from dock for a few weeks doing a circumnavigation of Anticosti Island in August. A short offshore passage is required to even get there, and once you're there, there aren't a lot of facilities. I drop the hook after arriving and immediately start the fire so I don't freeze to death in my sleep. Why would I not throw some spaghetti scrapings, egg shells and used kleenex in the fire?

As a pragmatic guy, would you seriously, open the hatch, let all the heat out, go on deck and throw your kleenex overboard rather than toss it in the fire?[/QUOTE]

Not sure how getting to Anticosti Island could be considered any sort of offshore passage. Having said that, if it is a two week trip you could keep the organics without difficulty I think. Note that in many parts of the world the tidal range is very small so it would be hard to burn trash below the high water mark.


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## gonecrusin (Aug 23, 2016)

If it's biodegradable, chuck it overboard.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

newt said:


> Could you make a miniature burn barrel on board?


Some ships have incinerators which are much more efficient than open burner. That concept could be scaled to a small boat with the problems of fuel consumption as Mark pointed out and space for yet another system on your boat.

As long as we can throw food waste over the side outside 12 nm waste management will be easier offshore than coastal cruising off the grid (like newt's example). Burn barrels and beach fires or packing stuff back out seem to be the options. Bagging organics over long periods seems a really unattractive option.

Of course as in so many other ways the rule-makers are rarely if ever thinking of recreational boaters when they make decisions.


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## gonecrusin (Aug 23, 2016)

I find it humorous, you can't throw an apple core overboard but buying dog food to feed the remora's living under the boat is fine.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

Well, you're talking with the guy who thinks he can control nook-nook on his boat, some I'm not surprised he thinks he can bring fire aboard.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

The most dangerous emissions can be caused by*burning plastics*containing organoch- lor-based substances like PVC. When such*plastics are burned,*harmful*quantities of dioxins, a group of highly toxic chemicals are emitted. Dioxins are the most toxic to the human organisms.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

I know the original premise of this discussion is off-shore sailing, but I'll implore everybody to refrain from dumping food scraps overboard while anchored. In places where spear fishing is a means of sustenance, close-to-shore coral heads are critical. Don't foul them up with trash and shark bait.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Fun chat. As an inland sailor (Great Lakes) I do turf organics overboard when we’re away from land. Never while at anchor, but certainly when we’re on ‘passage.’ I have burned garbage on shore in shore campfires, but mostly we just compact the non—organics till we get back to urbana.

The problem with burning most anything is not the CO2 issue. The problem is that it requires extremely high temperatures to destroy most of the toxic pollution like the chloro-compounds. Even buring fibre products (including wood) produces significant levels of these toxins. The volumes are insignificant compared to land-based pollution sources, but it’s still real.

But beyond that, I would think the real problem of burning trash on our small vessels would be a practical one. Burning this stuff will gum up the burner and chimney system pretty quick. Paper products are full of inks and glues. Plastic residue will quickly build up, as would the residue of organics. In my last land home we heated with a high-quality (high temperature) wood burning stove, and even here I could only burn small amounts of paper trash before having to clean things out.


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

I haven't had that issue yet mike (with my wood stove), but burning stuff creating toxins is probably a real enough threat. Back to recycling the plastic. Paper/wax packaging still gets burned, although my situation is probably unique. I have my own out in the sticks port with a burn barrel. It gets really hot before we add anything but wood. The small amount of ash is buried.
Recycle/decompose and limit the amount of true waste are the themes here. I just asked if there was one more tool that we could use- nothing serious or earth shaking.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

This one really cracks me up. 

I'm at anchor in a harbor, surrounded by lobster pots. I order cooked lobsters from the local guy, who caught them in the harbor. When I'm done eating them, I'm not allowed to throw the carcasses in the exact water they would have died in on their own. 

Rulemaking never tries to account for the logic of every situation. The comment about MARPOL focusing on Carnival, not my Jeanneau are quite accurate. Does that mean I might not follow the speed limit exactly? Perhaps.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

MikeOReilly said:


> But beyond that, I would think the real problem of burning trash on our small vessels would be a practical one. Burning this stuff will gum up the burner and chimney system pretty quick. Paper products are full of inks and glues. Plastic residue will quickly build up, as would the residue of organics. In my last land home we heated with a high-quality (high temperature) wood burning stove, and even here I could only burn small amounts of paper trash before having to clean things out.


This would be my main concern. In my dream stove scenario I have 2 options.

I could go with something very small like a Dickinson or a Tiny Tot over my sink. This would permit a straight vertical stove pipe run. The burn boxes are so small on these units,you couldn't really fit much into them to burn.

Or I could go with something a little bigger like a Ship Mate or Sardine. This I would have to install in my cut out and would allow for more vertical draw, but would involve two 45* elbows in the stove pipe. With two elbows I don't think I would want to burn much but dry split wood with two 45* elbows.

I suppose option C would be moving my double sink to where my cutout is and moving my cut out to where my sink is, but that would be a big job.

A bigger boat might have better flue options than mine though, so that's why I didn't think it was completely unreasonable. Burning any plastic of course is disallowed under Marpol.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

I was taught that the three enemies of a boat are earth, wind and fire, just like the band.

I know some boats have stoves, but I wouldn't go to sea in one of them.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Jammer Six said:


> I was taught that the three enemies of a boat are earth, wind and fire, just like the band.
> 
> I know some boats have stoves, but I wouldn't go to sea in one of them.


How do you make coffee and noodles without a stove on board?


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## senormechanico (Aug 20, 2012)

Jammer Six said:


> I was taught that the three enemies of a boat are earth, wind and fire, just like the band.
> 
> I know some boats have stoves, but I wouldn't go to sea in one of them.


Unless you're extremely small, I doubt you would be able to fit in a stove. :laugh


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

I should have drawn a line between natural gas systems and, for instance, wood burning stoves.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

This is an interesting topic for sailors and cruisers but with the experience of burning a few small bags of wood in the spring and fall on our boat, burning garbage on a boat is the worst idea.  Unless the burner and stack are mounted on the stern, you'll cover the boat with toxic ash. And you'll breath it if you go on deck.

We burn about as clean as you can with a wood fireplace. Bone dry hardwood(several years air dried), a very hot fire that lasts a few hours, and we still get some ash on deck(you can see it here below the smoking stack).

I can't imagine a cool fire spewing the toxic ash from plastic, not to mention the smell to yourselves and others nearby.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Jammer Six said:


> I was taught that the three enemies of a boat are earth, wind and fire, just like the band.
> 
> I know some boats have stoves, but I wouldn't go to sea in one of them.


You draw a lot of lines in the sand.


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## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

Plastics are an interesting topic- MARPOL does not prohibit them being burning at sea, provided you have an incinerator that meets their requirements. Among other things, the exit gas needs to be about 1000 degrees. It has to be a very clean incinerator. Because I cannot get those type of conditions on my boat, I will go back to recycling them, and using them as least as possible. Cardboard and paper seem a good substitute most of the time. 
Thank you for discussing my question. Trash is very expensive on the water (and here in Oregon). They do not recycle plastics when the price of oil goes way down. It pays to be cognizant of what you are buying.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Back when, we just chucked it in the sea, but we had little or no plastic packaging and the rest would degrade fairly quickly. With the increasing plastic packaging the International Sea Recovery Act of 1996, implemented by the United Nations, began adding trash receptacles at the mail buoys. 
So today one need not sail for weeks with their garbage, just stop a each mail buoy, check your mail and/or send some and dispose of your garbage.
Easy peasy.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

capta said:


> Back when, we just chucked in the sea, but we had little or no plastic packaging and the rest would degrade fairly quickly. With the increasing plastic packaging the International Sea Recovery Act of 1996, implemented by the United Nations, began adding trash receptacles at the mail buoys.
> So today one need not sail for weeks with their garbage, just stop a each mail buoy, check your mail and/or send some and dispose of your garbage.
> Easy peasy.


That's exactly what we do. The more recent buoy's have charging stations for the ipod, a fast satellite internet usb port and a hose for refilling our water tanks. Cruising is so easy these days. Best thing is there is no tipping the buoy.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

With the amount of discussion concerning the toxicity of burning various substances I am amazed the world is not filled with boats, campfires, and homesteads filled with corpses..... not to be confused with corpsmen....


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> With the amount of discussion concerning the toxicity of burning various substances I am amazed the world is not filled with boats, campfires, and homesteads filled with corpses..... not to be confused with corpsmen....


Obviously you haven't spent much time in the Eastern Caribbean. Almost daily, on every island, numerous people ashore are burning what I assume is their garbage. It smells like burning plastic and if anchored, it wafts across the boat for hours, sometimes. If sailing, well it's something not discussed in the guide books as one of the better things one should experience on this island or that.
I always get a kick out of the new cruisers who arrive on an island and say with intense disdain, "Where are the recycling bins? Don't these people care about their island?"


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Yep, and how disappointing is it to sail into some tropical anchorage and instead of smelling the Frangipani's you get the whiffs of burning plastic coke bottles....


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

we have done multiple off shore passages including sails across the Caribbean and an Atlantic crossing and spent some time in places where garbage is an issue 
We never throw plastic in the water
biodegradable goes in 
we try to mash paper and cardboard and store on board until we hit land except in Atlantic crossing and the made small and tossed 
in western Caribbean we had burn parties on shore to get rid of burnables - boats would do sundowner/burn parties to make sure the locals would not take our trash, go through it and then toss it into the water - at one island we were assured the local would burn it as he said he would by giving him a bunch of matches and he did burn it - dumbest thing we have seen is a 2 woman boat came to a burn party with a gallon of used oil and poured it on our blazing fire thinking it would burn - several of us all at the same time asked what he [email protected]@@ they were doing and the woman said it is petroleum and will burn - no it did not and a few of us had to go back to our boats and find some sort of digging tool to dig up the oil and then dig a huge hole inland and bury it - you can not account for stupid 
but usually we just keep it on board and dispose of it when we make a port


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

capta said:


> I always get a kick out of the new cruisers who arrive on an island and say with intense disdain, "Where are the recycling bins? Don't these people care about their island?"


Those cruisers are probably among those who think meat comes from the supermarket and that no animals are hurt.

As I'm sure @capta is painfully aware, recycling is an expensive and labor intensive process that doesn't scale well to small populations. See http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/recycling.htm . The true environmental benefits for some materials is far from clear. Municipalities are driven to recycling because it is still cheaper than landfills and incinerators. Landfills and small scale burns are cheap to free in the islands. Real efforts at waste management are only getting a toehold where they have an economic motive, such as tourism.


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## senormechanico (Aug 20, 2012)

Rocky,

Subtle humor. I like it !


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