# Relative tippiness of multihulls



## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

Hello all,

I was going to post this to the Design & Construction, but the stickied thread there warned against posting pre-purchase questions, which this is also. So my apologies if I've posted into the wrong discussion group.

So I'm looking into cheaper cruising multihulls, such as the Iroquois. Regular sailboats make my wife seasick, but she's fine on catamarans, so that's a hard constraint.

I've looked at an Iroquois and a Gemini so far. I liked the lines on the Iroquois, it's a very pretty catamaran. The inside is quite cramped though, but on the plus side there's relatively high clearance underneath the boat, so there should be less slapping. It also has an outboard instead of inboard, which I consider a plus (less thru-hulls, easier maintenance).

My biggest concern is the number of capsizes of Iroquois catamarans. Are these boats relatively more tippy than more modern catamarans such as the Gemini ? Were they marketed to racers who pushed the limit ? Or are all smallish catamarans equally tippy, and have an equal chance of going belly up ?

No urgency on replies since both particular boats are long since sold. Have to buy the wife a new car in a couple of months and then the boat hunt begins in earnest (I was ready to buy a year ago, but my wife prefers that I don't rack up piles of debt and have cash in hand first).


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A cruising catamaran, properly sailed is in very little danger of capsizing. Most cruising multihulls that capsize were due to human error.

I don't think the Iroquois is any tippier than the Gemini by any real amount, in fact, IIRC, the Iroquois has a higher beam-to-length ratio than the Gemini, so should be a bit more stable. But it really depends on which model of the Gemini and Iroquois you're talking about specifically.

However, the later models of the Geminis, the 105 series, are probably more stable than the previous models, since the hulls were redesigned to push the centers of buoyancy further out than the older hulls.

You might want to join the Yahoo Gemini Catamaran group and look at the Iroquois Catamaran Owners' website.

I'm pretty sure that if either boat had a serious stability problem, that a lot more would have been written about it. Most of the stories I've read on capsizing multihulls, it was almost invariably one of two things. Either they were racing or they made a mistake.

In general, a multihull has to be sailed a bit differently than a monohull. A monohull will generally reef for the average wind strength and let the boat's heeling take care of the gusts. A multihull reefs for the gust strengths and doesn't worry so much about the average winds, since it can't heel to shed the excess wind. This is more true of catamarans, which have a much higher resistance to heeling than of trimarans, which can heel a bit.

Some of the dangers in monohulls, like broaching and rolling, are very much reduced in a multihull. Some of the IOR era boats, going downwind, can start to roll and then broach. A multihull doesn't really do this, since they tend to have much higher initial stability figures compared to monohulls. The fact that they have multiple narrow hulls also tends to prevent them from broaching. They also seem to do much better in "rolly" anchorages. I've anchored in a few spots and seen monohulls come and then leave due to the fact that they would start to roll a fair bit while anchored in the same cove as me, while I wasn't really affected by the waves.

Several good smaller cruising multihulls that you might be interested in are the Gemini, the Iroquois, the Catalac 8M, and the Heavenly Twins 26. All of these boats have made ocean crossings. The Catalac, Iroquois and Heavenly Twins that are in this country probably came over under their own power, since all three were European built IIRC.

It would help if you said what kind of budget you were expecting to have. I generally recommend that you reserve about 15-20% of your total budget for refitting, upgrading and modifying whatever boat you buy, since boats are not like cars and often need to be modified to suit the people sailing them.

I would ask what your sailing plans are, since that may affect what boat would be best suited for you.

You should be aware that a catamaran, while having a lot of stowage space, can't really be loaded down with stuff to fill all that space and still perform safely.

If you're interested in sailing on a multihull, I do have some friends that have a Gemini that sails out of the New Bedford region.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Nicely balanced and informative reply sailingdog. (can't give you any more rep points, since I "have to spread some more around before giving it to you again") (g)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks TB.  Keep it in mind if you and Mrs TB want another cruising boat, rather than a daysailer.


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

The Iroquois Owners Association website moved, it's now at Iroquois Owners Association Index Page - I'm not sure why they kept the old one up. I will check out the Gemini owners group on Yahoo, thanks for the pointer.

That's the web site that first made me wary of the Iroquois tipping, they keep talking about capsizes in their newsletters. Then when I searched various other sailing forums, there would be occasional mentions of the Iroquois having a tendency to capsize. Thus my query as to whether it was more prevalent in the Iroquois than other small cruising catamarans.

I'm looking to do coastal cruising around Buzzards Bay and the Islands for the most part. I think it would be cool to sail to Bermuda at some point once or twice, but that's totally optional.

Thinking of spending around $30k, which covers Iroquois and older Gemini's.

Thanks for your reply.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Looking,
30k Doesn't buy you a use-able catamaran - you might find a old Gemini 3000 for that, certainly not a Gemini 105 or 105mc.

30k buys you a LOT of work before you put it in the water.

Keep in mind that for the most part, you get what you pay for.

Look for Charles Kanters 'Cruising Catamaran Communique' it is an excellent choice of reading for and a very good source of data for all things cruising in catamaran's and their realitive merits.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me, I'm the resident Gemini owner - SailDog just wishes he was 

Chuck
Patience Two, Gemini 105Mc #987 - launched May 2007


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nah... I'm very happy with my trimaran. 

I'd agree...any catamaran, especially a cruising sized one, like a Gemini or Iroquois, is going to be in pretty rough shape. 

A couple good books to read:

Chris White's The Cruising Multihull
Thomas Firth Jones' Multihull Voyaging


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

With $30k, you'd be better off shopping for a monohull. You can get a lot of monohull for $30k, or rather a very nice monohull.

In my shopping experience, the only cats you'll find for up to $30k will be in horrible condition or custom/homemade varieties of questionable build-quality. I'd say $75k might be a better minimum for finding a sail-away condition cat. I think Iroquois go in the $60k-$80k range while Gemini's start around $70k and go up quickly from there.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

The gemini gems website has as complete a listing as you will find on Gemini's for sale worldwide.
Gemini Gems - Classified Ads is the free, non-member classifieds page.

a 1991 3200 for 75k
a 1995 3400 for 72k
a 1996 105 for 87k

It goes up from there.
Bamboo, Hull number 161 is the only one to my knowledge that is in your price range, here is a picture - and you can see why it's in your range (asking is 32k) (PM me if you want contact info, boat is in Paradise Texas and comes with a trailer):


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

I wasn't going to say to anything, because I'm a novice, but I've never seen an Iroquois listed for anything near $60k. They top out at $30k. This is looking at dozens of listings, old and new.

I did speak with the fellow who bought the Iroquois I looked at earlier (it was advertised for a little over $30k, and then a little under $30k a few months later), it had some problems with the holding tank but other than that was fine (at least as far as he told me).

I don't know what happened with the Gemini 3000, that was asking $32k but I didn't see anything horribly wrong with it. Doesn't mean there wasn't, I'm no surveyor. It was a very early 80's model.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

There's a pretty big difference between the Gemini 3000 and the Gemini 105 series, since Tony Smith basically redesigned the hulls between the 3000 series and the 105s...and one thing the redesign did was move the center of buoyancy of the Gemini hulls outwards.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

That'd be the one pictured above, Bamboo. It would need some major work to be a liveaboard based on what Sheril, the owner, has indicated on the Yahoo group.
Email:
Re: Possible selling of 1986 Gemini

--- In [email protected], "catamaranbamboo2004"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The reason I say possible, is that I'm not sure if anyone would be
> interested in my boat in the condition that it is in now. I really
> don't know who I would talk to about whether or not it is even
> sellable in it's present condition. Any advise would be appreciated.

And another:

I'm sending a couple of pictures one was taken before we pulled the boat and
the rest are history. My late husband and I bought this boat in 2003 in hopes
of living out our dreams on her. When we had the boat pulled for a quick
bottom job, it turned out that the previous owners hadn't done their jobs in
the past. At that point we got out the grinders and started grinding. We
completed most of the fairing and were ready to apply a protective layer of
fiberglass, when my husband found out that he had cancer. We hastily built a
trailer to haul the boat from Rockport, TX to Paradise, TX (central Texas),
after he passed away. I've been working on it when I can, but I've just had
my 3rd abdominal surgery in the last 2 years. This is why I'm selling it. I'm
not sure I can complete the work on it, much-less be able to handle the boat
single-handed.

For the boat I have all the fiberglass cloth, West System Resin, Hardeners,
and fillers to complete the job. I have 6 InterProtect 2000E Kits to make 6
gal of barrier coating. 2-gal Interlux Ultra-Kote Black, 2-gal Interlux Micron
Extra Red, 2-gal Pettit Easy Poxy White for above the water line, 2-qts Pettit
Easy Poxy Burgundy for stripe under rub-rail, and 1 qt Pettit Easy Poxy Black
for the water line.

I have a new airhead for the boat(just received a few weeks ago), New 8-ft
Walker dingy, older dingy of unknown origin(but paddles well), new BBQ Kettle
grill(still in box), New Powersurvivor 160E Water maker and the extended
cruising kit with additional filters(still in original boxes), new water
pump(still in box). All the instruments have been sent to the originating
company and put in like-new condition complete with new thru hulls and wind
instruments. New solar panel(still in plastic). A new 2003 Honda 15hp
outboard with less than 2 hours on it. New headliner material and spray glue
(should be enough of each to finish the job with spare.

I really have so much stuff, it's hard to mention it all.

The boat is located on the trailer on cushioned blocks. The trailer is
street legal, but requires permitting. All of the wires coming down the mast
were just cut with a knife, so the mast could be removed quickly by the boat
yard when removing the mast. I've also updated the documentation on the boat.

One person did respond to the email. Bamboo is a 1986 Gemini 3000.


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

> and one thing the redesign did was move the center of buoyancy of the Gemini hulls outwards.


Getting back to my original question... does that mean the 3000 is tippier than the later Gemini 105mc ?


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

Hi Chuckles,

No the older Gemini 3000 I looked at was in Freetown MA, I was on board it to check it out. It looked fine (with the one scary thing being I saw the pointy end of a screw sticking out of the window trim in the master stateroom - no idea what that was about).

There was a lot of work poured into the thing, it had been modified with hull extensions on the rear to support two outboards (I was told professionally at a boat yard), and had a propane hot water heater added. Of course I didn't pursue it (negotiations with the wife went poorly), so I don't know what a professional survey would have found.

I definitely wasn't in Texas!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, it does.


LookingForCruiser said:


> Getting back to my original question... does that mean the 3000 is tippier than the later Gemini 105mc ?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

LookingForCruiser said:


> I wasn't going to say to anything, because I'm a novice, but I've never seen an Iroquois listed for anything near $60k. They top out at $30k. This is looking at dozens of listings, old and new.


There are a lot on yachtworld for more than that. But also bro you don't want to go crossing oceans on something just because its cheap. And one more thing came to mind....
If you need to go that fast where you are in danger of capsizing or don't know how to not get yourself into a storm, ie avoiding them, reading weather reports and listening to them, paying attention to skies and clouds and waves... then maybe you shouldn't be sailing a cat.
6 knots is the perfect speed and you can load them down with cruising gear. For me sailing is the journey and the special time... the destination is just an added bonus. 
Maybe you should get a gas guzzler and put the hammer down.


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

a. In the UK, they regularly list for more. Why? I don't know. In the US, they don't list over 30k. This is watching prices for over a year and finding back sales. I've found listing prices for probably 2 dozen Iroquois.

b. Who's crossing oceans ? I want to cruise around coastal MA

c. Who ever mentioned going real fast ?

Your post seems awful hostile. Why do you want me to buy a powerboat?


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## P8dawg (Jan 10, 2007)

My father is selling his Stiletto 27 for 13K, but it's really nothing more than a great big beachcat. We have been very close to flipping her over due to gusts over 40 m.p.h., but we also had eighteen people on board last Father's day. It can be a very exciting ride, but for the most part is very tame and much more forgiving than a smaller cat, until you go over. Then, you probably ought to just swim to shore and wait for the insurance check.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

LookingForCruiser said:


> Your post seems awful hostile. Why do you want me to buy a powerboat?


CAUTION ..... The Darkside and its minions are always out there lurking to steal you over.....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BlondezZilla's first post is awfully trollish... and doesn't seem to have any real relevance to the OP.

Just because a boat doesn't cost $xxx,000, doesn't mean that it isn't necessarily an unseaworthy boat. The Iroquois catamarans were built in England, and most of the ones in the US, came here by sailing across a little body of water called the Atlantic. As such, if they've been well maintained and are in good condition, there's little doubt that they would be able to make such a journey with a little preparation.

*Just remember, any idiot can capsize a multihull.* Good multihull seamanship means sailing the boat properly, to minimize risk of capsize or pitchpoling. *Most multihull capsizes are the result of one of two things, if not both. The first is being over-canvassed. The second is going too fast for conditions.*

Multihulls should be reefed to match the gust wind speeds, since they don't have the ability to bleed off the excess energy of the gusts by heeling over like a monohull. This often means reefing a bit earlier than some monohulls. However, most multihulls will still sail far faster, even reefed, than their monohull counterparts, which are mostly limited to their hull speed.

Most multihulls will sail far more comfortably when sailed at speeds to suit the sea and wind conditions-just cause you can do 14 knots doesn't mean you should be doing 14 knots... slowing the boat down to 9 or 10 knots will smooth out the ride and make it much more comfortable, while still leaving most monohulls in the dust.

Often, these two problems compound each other... leading to either wind and wave induced capsize or pitchpoling. The solution to the first is often the solution to the second-reefing properly to suit conditions. In extreme conditions, most multihulls would be wise to deploy a series drogue.


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

It occurs to me now that Blondezilla was probably talking about the prices of Geminis, since he mentions "lots on Yachtworld". I didn't do the research on Gemini prices, like I did for Iroquois - I only have the one example, the 88 Gemini 3000 for $34500 that I looked at. One price does not make a good sample to draw conclusions from. At the time I looked up the price in BUC and it was about the same, and assumed that was the average price for a 20 year old Gemini.


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

Stupid question (because I don't go out in storms in the rather smaller boats I'm used to sailing...):

The Jordan series drogue would be used in conjunction with a small storm sail, correct? Is it the same idea on a cat ?

Where do you attach the drogue to on a cat ? Right in the middle of the stern ?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

No, a JSD is usually used with all the sail down. Most boats have more than enough windage without the need to add any. All adding sail would do is stress the rigging more and increase the rate at which you run off before the storm... and if the amount of searoom you have is limited, that is a really, really bad idea.

The JSD is usually attached to a bridle. The hardpoints for attaching the bridle on a catamaran would usually be chainplates installed on the outer hulls for this specific purpose, and the bridle should be 2.5x the distance between the two attachment points.

D


LookingForCruiser said:


> Stupid question (because I don't go out in storms in the rather smaller boats I'm used to sailing...):
> 
> The Jordan series drogue would be used in conjunction with a small storm sail, correct? Is it the same idea on a cat ?
> 
> Where do you attach the drogue to on a cat ? Right in the middle of the stern ?


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

LookingForCruiser,
If you are interested at all in Gemini's I suggest joining our rather active Gemini Group on Yahoo.
It's free and open to all: Gemini_Cats : Gemini Catamarans to sign up.
There is a file on the board called: Gemini New and Used boat pricing.xls - it gives the results of a fairly extensive review done by one of our members.

IMHO, the reason UK boats cost more is the VAT, and the requirement that the boat meet CE certification even if selling used.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Be aware that the US-market Geminis are slightly different from the EU-market ones, and IIRC will have some trouble with certification, since the EU required some slight changes to the boat to certify it.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Correct SD, says so on the PCI web site.
They modify they door sill (raised to 11 inches), mod the toe rail, put in three bilge pumps (2 elect, one manual from the cockpit) enlarge the cockpit drains to 2 inches each and of course wire it for the EU. 
There is no reasonable way to modify a non-European modified Gemini to meet CE standards. 
All the hype I spout about my Gemini being open ocean category A rated by the CE is just that, hype. The design is capable, it's components are not. Last I heard a new Gemini going to the UK starts at about 170 EU, or 200k as opposed to my 149.5k


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

Unless the British have decided to retake the colonies, I don't think I have to worry about EU boating regulations.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

We kicked the brit's out twice...doing it a third time shouldn't be a big problem.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

I'm late to this post, but you know what they say, better late than never.

In addition to boats already mentioned, I'll add Catalac 8m or 9m and Heavenly Twins to the list. Both are older but well known British boats with solid glass hulls, some should be in your price range. 

Reading Charles Kanter's book as Chuckles mentioned is really the right place to start.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

WHAT???!!! Did Rick just post on a sailing topic???!!! The sky is falling!!!


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

this is definately less stressful


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It's not so much the "tippiness" as it is the "breakiness"


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

camaraderie said:


> WHAT???!!! Did Rick just post on a sailing topic???!!! The sky is falling!!!


So Chicken Little does exist


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

kwaltersmi said:


> With $30k, you'd be better off shopping for a monohull. You can get a lot of monohull for $30k, or rather a very nice monohull.


That's what I was thinking. Lots of really good options for 30k if you only want one hull.


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## Catsailor07 (Nov 29, 2007)

Well coming in late on this one too. Some people should check there facts before spouting off.

The Iroquois UK web site is actually on two sites as I understand one is orphaned and has no access by former owner and the other is almost non active. There is the Delphi forum and a new group on Yahoo.

IroquoisCats : Iroquois Catamarans

Having just purchased one I think they are a great boat and will suit my needs well.

John


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Sweet deal!*

I was reading in this thread earlier where iroquois were priced 60 to 70 grand. well fellas, I just aquired hull #26 for a whopping 4 grand. I have about a years worth of work before I sail her, but she is complete with a full set of bloody red sails!
I posted pictures on yahoo's iroquoiscats group if any one wants to see her. I figure when I get done I will have about 20k in her, but what an oppurtunity to own a work of art I see equivalant to a piccaso!
D


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## Catsailor07 (Nov 29, 2007)

Hey D,

Good buy for sure. 

Iroquois and the MKII which I have followed for years seem to have a price ceiling around 30K in North America, sad. But I'm not complaining since I bought one. It is a great boat and not a barge like a Gemini, came through the Erie Canal with one under motor, no bridge deck clearance. Don't like the layout either, personal preference.

The nice thing with the Iroquois are her lines, a Greyhound. Unfortunately the accommodations are somewhat tight in the doubles which seems to be the drawback. A redesigned boat would bump the doubles I'm sure, Rod where are you?

These boats are worth a look and check out the active group on Yahoo.

JohnB
S/Cat Drumbeat MKII


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## LookingForCruiser (Feb 7, 2007)

I ended up buying an Iroquois MkII this spring as well, for fairly cheap money. Needed (and still needs) work, but she's sailing now, took her out for her maiden voyage last weekend with Sailingdog.

They are 30-40 year old boats and will be priced accordingly. I expect an average condition Iroquois will sell in the mid-$20k's and a bristol condition one higher. All my research shows them selling around those prices. Of course my purchase & darwinless's will drag the average price down now


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## metapete (Jun 2, 2011)

Dear Catsailor07 and other Iroquois Enthusiasts,

My name is Peter Humby from the UK. I'm the Webmaster for the relaunched Iroquois Owners Association site.

I am currently in the process of adding archive material to the site such as old newsletters and Sailcraft documents.

However, to give the new site a boost, it would be great to get some more recent material such as photos, personal experiences, stories etc. So as an Iroquois enthusiast, I was wondering if you could spare some time to look at the site and perhaps send me some material to include. You are of course very welcome to register and contribute material directly.

Please note the address of the site is:
iroquois-owners.org.uk
(can also be reached at iroquois.org.uk)

Many thanks,
Peter Humby, IOA Webmaster.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

Peter, this was a 3 year old thread but good luck with the new website


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