# Learning Boat: San Juan 21 vs Catalina 22 vs ???



## aarond (Aug 18, 2010)

My wife and I are looking for a first sailboat. Our experience thus far is limited to a little time on friends' boats (a Hobie Cat 17 and an Islander 32). We've very much enjoyed what we've done thus far, and think we're ready to make the plunge into a boat of our own.

A dinghy might be the best (and cheapest) choice for learning to sail, but we have a 2 1/2 year old, who really enjoys sailing, and we'd like to ensure that he continues to enjoy it. So we want to minimize the risk of dumping the boat, and we expect he'll have a better experience if he has a bit of a cabin to escape the wind and spray when he likes. I'm sure we'll all enjoy our sailing days more if he's happy.  

We plan to mostly day-sail on a nearby lake and on the Columbia river. Perhaps an occasional overnight; we're long-time backpackers, and can probably manage with a camp stove and minimal amenities. I certainly don't expect stand-up headroom in a starter boat.

Our criteria are:

--Budget around $2500. Definitely an older boat. We know buying any boat is a risk, and we'd rather not wager big to start with.

--Easily trailerable and launchable - which most likely means a swing keel. It would be nice to be able to get in an evening sail after work, which is probably doable if we can go from towing to water in a half-hour or so. Any accumulated wisdom on how practical that is? How much does the launch time increase as you move from a 16-18 footer up to 20-22?

--Displacement <= 2500 lbs (~3000 with trailer). Our main tow rig is rated for 3500 lbs; I've towed that much quite comfortably, but would prefer not to push the limits pulling up a ramp.

--Cabin of some sort: enough room for our son to play, a porta-potti, etc. Berths would be nice, but the size isn't crucial.

Speed is not a priority, although decent light-wind performance would be nice. We'll mostly sail as a family (2 adults + 1 child), so single-handing and cockpit space aren't huge concerns. For the areas we intend to sail, draft shouldn't be a big issue either, although as I mentioned, I suspect a swing keel would make launching and recovery much smoother.

We're considering the SJ21 and the Catalina 22, mostly because they are reasonably priced and in plentiful supply. Any advice on comparing those two models? 

I think we could be happy with something smaller, but don't see a lot of 16-18 footers with usable cabins for sale (We looked very briefly, but just a bit too late, at a Sanibel 17; we probably should have jumped on that). Other models we should be watching for?

Thanks in advance.


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

aarond said:


> Easily trailerable and launchable - which most likely means a swing keel. It would be nice to be able to get in an evening sail after work, which is probably doable if we can go from towing to water in a half-hour or so. Any accumulated wisdom on how practical that is? How much does the launch time increase as you move from a 16-18 footer up to 20-22?


I love my Catalina 22, but it's usually 1-2 hours of exhausting work getting it in the water, and about the same on retrieval. It gets faster the longer you've had it- and if you're willing to buy/make special equipment for speeding things up.

I wouldn't do single daysails with a C22, because you'll spend very little of the day sailing. My wife and I use ours for 2-3 day all weekend cruises and have added a queen sized bed (boards to fill walkway), porta potty, and combo BBQ/stove.

One thing that works good is getting short-term slips or mooring buoys for trips. If you want to do after work sails with a trailered boat- you should really get something small with an unstayed mast.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Either boat would be an excellent choice. I've sailed on C22s and own a SJ21, and really, it's a toss-up. May come down to timing, condition, and price. There are about 50 other equally good candidates, but these two sound right and, as you say, are known quantities in plentiful supply.

The C22 is a heavier boat by about 700 lbs. It won't ghost along in 3 kts wind like the SJ21 (which is a light air _killer_), but it will punch thru chop much better and offer more reassurance in bigger seas. Sails a bit dryer, too. C22 has *much more* volume belowdecks, and something like privacy for the head. OTOH, that privacy involves basically stashing the head under your face in the V berth.

Keels: The C22 has a Big Dumb Slab of a keel, not particularly well-shaped; its keel pendant drags in the water, making humming sounds and corroding. Failure of this pendant is common, tho not a huge deal to fix. Keel does not retract all the way into the hull. The SJ21 has a fully-retracting keel, so it sits lower on its trailer. Its keel is foil-shaped, and the pendant stays out of the water. The downside is the winch is on the front of the compression post: hard to reach and it bangs you in the head while sleeping.

The C22 has a smaller cockpit than the SJ21. You can fit 3 adults and a kid it it, tho, so it's still functional. The SJ21 came in basically two versions, a doghouse coachroof (Mk1) and a flush deck (Mks2 and 3). The cockpit is roughly 14" longer on the Mk1, at the cost of interior volume. We can fit five adults (or four adults + two small kids) on our Mk1.

As for sailing qualities.... They are both fine, honestly. I'd call the C22 more of a pocket keelboat, while the SJ21 is a dinghy on steroids. The San Juan is quicker to accelerate, surfs nicely on swells, and spins in its own length. It's substantially more tender than the C22, but it hardens up at 25 degrees heel and never feels scary. The C22 typically relies on a large genoa to supply drive, and I hear rumors it does not like to sail on main only. By contrast, the SJ21 has a small (100%, ~85 sqft) working jib and loves to sail on main or reefed main only. That's useful in bad weather or when shorthanded: you don't need to wrestle a big headsail, and you don't need to fuss with a jib when it's blowing hard or one parent is busy with the tyke.

Build quality is basically the same on both boats (middlin' fair) and cost of ownership will be roughly the same. Both set up quickly: budget 45 minutes on launch and 30 on takedown. Many C22 owners seem to rely on gin-pole mast raising systems, but that may be demographics more than anything. I can muscle up our SJ21 mast by myself, tho it's a grunt. If you can, find a marina or club that will let you store the boat on its trailer with the mast up. "Dry sailing" it will save buckets of time and you'll use the boat more often.

Cheers, and keep us appraised of your search!

ETA: Here's a C22 in Seattle area (needs a keel cable, ahaaha) for $1k.


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## aarond (Aug 18, 2010)

Thanks for the info thus far. 

Regarding the sensible suggestions about keeping a boat rigged at a marina (in a slip or on the trailer): I should have mentioned that we have a decent day-sailing lake 30 minutes from our driveway, but the closest marinas are on the Columbia river, about an hour-and-a-half away (+ traffic). 

In general, I'd rather spend the time rigging than driving, so I've assumed thus far that we'd keep the boat at home. But perhaps I should be rethinking that assumption.


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

I dont have any experience with a C22 but i heard that they are excellent boats. You might throw Oday and Chrysler on your short list. They also have great reputations.

My first sailboat was a SJ21. It was a great light air boat that handled very well. The major drawback is that it is very tender. It didnt take much of a gust of wind for me to heel the boat past my comfort level. With that being said i was new to sailing and my comfort level wasnt very high. 

Another problem with the SJ21 is that the cabin is small with not much headroom. It would be fine for a small child to get out of the elements, but if you plan on spending the weekend on your boat i would look at other models.

I dont think I ever really timed it but I could probably rig the boat in under a half hour. They are pretty simple straight forward boats. I mostly went out for day sails so I wasnt bringing a whole lot of gear with me so that also sped up the rigging time. It also helps that I could step the mast by myself with only one other person to secure the forestay.


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## estopa (Aug 17, 2010)

I got the same situation with a 5 year old. My wife and I had limited experience on a sailboat before we bought a ODay 222. Its a perfect size for an overnight and gives our 5 year old plenty of space to play down below for extended periods. 

Although I keep mine on a floating dock, 5 mins from the house. I would hate to step mast it every time. Have you looked into a Oday 192? Those are fairly easy to trailer and set up at the ramp. There are a few folks here that do it on the weekends by themselves. It even has a little cabin to keep your 2 yr old preoccupied.


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## tsuidc (Mar 2, 2008)

We have owned both a CC22 and SJ21. The SJ21 is a little over 2000LB including trailer. Very easy to tow, rig and launch. We find rigging and launching the CC22 to be quite a chore. The SJ21 is great fun to sail in light winds, and she is very manageable in not so light winds. We raced the SJ21 without great success but it was the best way, for us, to learn to sail well. The CC22 definitely has more room below, but I do not consider her to be a better built boat. Watch out for deck core rot in the balsa deck of the SJ21. Having said that, we didn't have any problems with the deck in the SJ21 but had a soft foredeck in the CC22. Even though we owned much bigger boats later on, my wife and I still look back fondly to the three weeks, thirty years ago, we spend in the SJ21 cruising the San Juan and Canadian Gulf Islands as one of our best and most care free sailing experiences....a little cramped, but no systems to maintain, just drop the hook and relax, what a life. May be we just had tougher bodies then, when we were young, and hazier memories now, when we are close to being senior citizens.


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## tsuidc (Mar 2, 2008)

I apologize for referring to my ex-Catalina 22 as CC22. It should be C22.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

For beginning sailors with a tot on board, I believe comparing the design differences between old, trailerable cruisers in the low 20's is splitting hairs. The big differences will be condition of the boats available, or from a different perspective, how much time and money will the new owners spend on repairing the boat should be a more important factor than the particular model.

You should be able to get a good, ready-to-go boat that meets your needs for $2500. Be diligent in your search and be ready to act fast and pay cash. Good deals are gobbled up fast in the category you are targeting.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

jwing said:


> For beginning sailors with a tot on board, I believe comparing the design differences between old, trailerable cruisers in the low 20's is splitting hairs. The big differences will be condition of the boats available, or from a different perspective, how much time and money will the new owners spend on repairing the boat should be a more important factor than the particular model.
> 
> You should be able to get a good, ready-to-go boat that meets your needs for $2500. Be diligent in your search and be ready to act fast and pay cash. Good deals are gobbled up fast in the category you are targeting.


Good advice ... exactly four years late.


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## krazzz (Jul 17, 2013)

I have no experience with the SJ21 but I had a C22 and loved it. It was my first "real" boat. I built a gin pole with a winch for about $50 and could step the mast single-handed. I only disconnected the forestay (with furler) and the two forward shrouds and left everything else in place. I could easily have the boat rigged and ready to go in less than 30 min. The key is minimizing the amount of work needed to get it in the water. Also, some lakes have a "dry-dock" area where you basically rent a parking spot for the summer and keep the boat on the trailer fully rigged. You just hook on to the trailer, dunk the boat and your are ready to sail. The place I used to keep mine at only charged $200 for the season. Plus they would let you store it there for the winter too.


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## chrissailorman (Apr 20, 2010)

Hi Aarond.... Welcome to the world of sailing.... You will love it. I definitely agree with others that if you are looking to trailer sail, a 22 is not the way to go, unless you are traveling and looking for 2-3 day sails. Usually takes me an hour to set mine up. I sail a Rhodes 22. 
For daily or after work trips smaller is more practical. There is a great little cruiser that I don't hear too much about but have some experience with. Look into the O'Day Mariner. It's 19 feet and based on the Rhodes 19 which has a great sailing reputation. There may not be too many around, but it's a great boat. Easy to sail, has a small cabin and definitely easy to set up. I would probably recommend it for light wind sailing although as your experience grows, you shouldn't have much of a problem with stronger winds. It will also do well with a small outboard and 2hp should do you fine.
Check it out. I think it will fit your budget and fill your needs. 
Chris G


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## krazzz (Jul 17, 2013)

I am completely mystified how it can take an hour or two to rig a Catalina 22. What in the world are you doing that takes so long? Like I said, I can do it in 30 min or less by myself and about 20 min with help. I did a lot of after work "day sails" with mine. If I had 3 to 4 hours to spare I was going sailing. Here are the steps involved:

1. Removed mast from travel cradle.
2. Secure mast in step
3. Attach gin pole and raise mast.
4. Attach furler/forestay
5. Attach two forward shrouds, tension other shrouds (I use quick connects so they attach in seconds and go back to the preset tension.)
6. Attach boom
7. Attach jib, run sheets aft
8. Attach Mainsail
9. Remove straps holding motor and rudder on. 
10. Give boat a "once over"
11. Unhook trailering straps
12. Back into water, float boat and secure at dock
13. Park truck
14. Open beer
15. Go sailing!

I had a Hunter 170 that took maybe a few minutes less to set up. The main advantage is that I could step the mast by hand without a gin pole. However the C22 is a much better and stable boat. You will love it.

Tips: 
1. Get quick connects for all standing rigging. They allow you to keep everything hooked up except the two forward shrouds and the forestay. It also allows you to get everything tensioned again in seconds.

(Catalina Direct: Quick Release Lever C-22 Rigging)
2. Keep the boom in the cockpit with the mainsheet and vang still attached. Just attach it to the mast and you are done.
3. If I am not going far and the roads are smooth I keep the motor and rudder/tiller attached (secured with ratchet straps.
4. Build a Gin pole with a winch. It makes stepping the mast a fast and easy one man job. Since you leave 4 shrouds and the backstay attached the mast is stable going up. 
5. Practice doing this in your driveway (watch out for power lines.) It takes the pressure off you at the ramp if you have done it a few times at home. You will be familiar with the set up and you will know all of the steps. (my neighbors probably thought I was crazy but I raised and lowered my mast every night for a week when I first got it.

Just get a system in place that works for you. It probably took me well over an hour the first time I did it but with practice I and a few tricks I learned I was able to reduce it down to 30 min. They key is to have everything ready and reduce the steps to the bare minimum. Some people probably store the boom down below with everything off of it. I disconnect the boom from the mast and secure it in the cockpit and I am done. Some people must disconnect all of the shrouds and have to tension everything with the turnbuckles, I use quick connects and I am tensioned and done in about a minute. I put the sails in the bag is such a way that I can connect the halyard while they are still in the bag and I am able to raise them right up. If you work smarter, not harder you should be able to spend more time sailing. Hopefully you love it enough that you can upgrade to a bigger boat and keep it in a slip. It is our second year in a slip and it has changed our lives! We go down to the boat just to eat dinner and watch the sunset with no intention or taking it out. Sometimes I need a break from work and take my lunch down and eat it on the boat. It is so relaxing. Best of luck to you.


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## chrissailorman (Apr 20, 2010)

Am I myopic or what???
Just realized my heartfelt advice rendered earlier today to Aarond on sailboat selection was only 4 years after the fact....duh! Can't see the sailboats for the marina...or something like that! 
Chris Greco

BTW....Donna, I stand by my advice anyway. Smaller can be good. Depends on your needs etc. yes...not better with small children but def an advantage when what you desire is quick set up, mobility and easy learning experience. I learned on a Sunfish and Chrysler 16. Then bought my first Rhodes 22, a 76 followed shortly by a newer Rhodes in 2000, an '87. Thought about moving up but single handling a 22 in a shallow bay has it's advantages. 

Ps ....I could set up my Chrysler in 20 minutes, and that was when I didn't know anything about what I was doing!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I had a hunter 23 and my feelings about trailer sailing are very negative. Just about everything about trailer sailing is a PITA. reaching over the transom to fwd- rev engine, the tiller always in the way and passengers afraid to move for fear of rocking the boat or "tipping" getting tossed like a salad even by small wakes. rigging hours before and after launch. towing problems, oh.. I could go on...


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## chrissailorman (Apr 20, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> I had a hunter 23 and my feelings about trailer sailing are very negative. Just about everything about trailer sailing is a PITA. reaching over the transom to fwd- rev engine, the tiller always in the way and passengers afraid to move for fear of rocking the boat or "tipping" getting tossed like a salad even by small wakes. rigging hours before and after launch. towing problems, oh.. I could go on...


Denise... I hear you loud and clear. With my boat, the over the transom ritual is even worse. My mainsheet traveller is a 1" bar attached between my double back stays and it's only a few inches above the transom. Really gets in the way with things. I resolved that by attaching an extension rod to my shifter handle and made an extension for my tiller throttle out of pvc. Both work really well.
Without a doubt, the bigger boats are more comfortable in waves and chop. As far as room in the cockpit and tiller issues, my boat has a very roomy cockpit for a 22.. I crewed on a Bavaria 36 for races on L.I. Sound and believe my cockpit was roomier than that! Flat floor, wide beam, not knees to knees. No wheel stand to work around. This Rhodes was well designed. 
I don't trailer sail, I have a slip on a floating dock. I agree... trailer sailing would be a pain with this boat and I would hardly do any sailing if I was limited to that, but with a 19 it wouldn't be so bad. Mast like a stick...light rigging etc. it is what it is! 
BTW...sounds like you have a very nice boat, and you' ex done so much work on it. If I was in the market for a larger boat, I would buy yours in a heartbeat!


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## chrissailorman (Apr 20, 2010)

chrissailorman said:


> BTW...sounds like you have a very nice boat, and you' ex done so much work on it. If I was in the market for a larger boat, I would buy yours in a heartbeat!


Not "you' ex done"...

should read "you've done"


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

chrissailorman said:


> Not "you' ex done"...
> 
> should read "you've done"


Anuter werg knotzee?


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## krazzz (Jul 17, 2013)

The last couple posts did bring up something I forgot to mention. Make sure the trailer is in good shape. The first month I had my C22 I had 3 tire blowouts. After looking into it further I realized the tires weren't up for the job. They were the compact tire size and were at their max load rating so I upgraded my tires to a much larger size similar to a full size car tire on a 15" rim. After that I drove thousands of miles without a hiccup. Make sure your bearings are good and check the brakes and lights. I put submersible LED lights on my trailer so I had one less thing to worry about. Also, my trailer had the extendable tongue so you can launch with low vehicles on a shallow ramp. The first couple times I extended it but then I tried it without extending it and found that it work just fine so I never extended it again. You will have to experiment with your setup. 

Also the cockpit on the C22 is larger than the one on my Ericson 32. 

Yes, a 22' boat is going to be more work to launch (but not significantly) but it will also fit your family needs better than a 17'.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

many of my club members use a 2 wheel dolly with a hitch ball welded on to it. works great.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Hmmm, how the heck did that happen? I never go past the first page of the latest posts list. And _EXACTLY_ four years late? That's suspicious. I'll blame it on Obama trying to ruin America, since that excuse works seems to work for many...


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## chrissailorman (Apr 20, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> Anuter werg knotzee?


Huh?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

chrissailorman said:


> Huh?


Another word Nazi It was supposed to be funny  BTW, You can edit posts, even delete them.


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## chrissailorman (Apr 20, 2010)

It's all electronic nonsense..thought that was what it meant...really.


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