# Wing Sail



## gonenil (Nov 27, 2006)

Edited...advertising. If you wish to promote your sailing products...you will need to take out an ad. Cam


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## BigCat69 (Mar 28, 2008)

*WingSails and advertising*

No one has ever made any money with wingsails yet, so I doubt the viability of advertising one. I am an advocate of wingsails, and have a number of wingsail links, but I wouldn't bet a plugged nickel on paying to advertise one. Tim Dunn, BigCat, Inc. dunnanddunnrealtors.com/Catamaran.html


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I checked out his website. It looks like the design requires an unstayed mast.


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## BigCat69 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Unstayed wingsail rig*



davidpm said:


> I checked out his website. It looks like the design requires an unstayed mast.


 Yes it does. The calculations and plans for the unstayed masts have been examined and approved by the US Coast Guard's engineers at the Marine Safety Office in Washington DC.

I sailed a boat across the Pacific that had unstayed masts. The next owner sailed that boat around the world, and the current owners are on a voyage from the Seattle area to (currently) South America. All with the original rig. I regard unstayed masts as being safer and more reliable than unstayed masts, because crevice corrosion and metal fatigue can't dismast you.


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## Banshi (Jul 4, 2007)

The two big disadvantages of a wing sail would be weight and a fixed geometry both in size and shape, has a way to address the geometry problem been created?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Banshi said:


> The two big disadvantages of a wing sail would be weight and a fixed geometry both in size and shape, has a way to address the geometry problem been created?


His website has a pretty good shot of what the wing looks like. Very clever solution. It would be great if someone could do independant testing.

Yes he has a way to change the shape of the sail.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm not a big fan of wing sails, especially for cruising boats. Wing sails have this one major disadvantage...they can not be reefed or furled.


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## Banshi (Jul 4, 2007)

"Yes he has a way to change the shape of the sail."

Does this include sail area? As pointed out, this is also a important factor especially when cruising. I guess some research is in order.


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## BigCat69 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Easily reefed and furled*

My wing sail design is more easily reefed or furled than a marconi sail, because each batten set is a reef point, and the sail has lazy jacks. I have made no provision for light air sails, because since it is easily reefed, I gave the boat a large working sail area. You could fly a free standing sail like a spinnaker (or on a tandem rigged catamaran, a square sail with no yard needed.) I wouldn't flog the boat with extra sail, though - I'd take down any light air sails early.

The rig needen't weigh very much, if you use carbon / vinylester or carbon / epoxy for the battens. The masts are engineered for a catamaran, which does not heel. For 1200 sq. feet of sail per mast, they weigh about 1100 pounds each. I wouldn't put it on a tender boat. It is worth noting that the center of the weights is lower than a marconi sail, and that the aspect ratio is about 2 : 1.

You could have variable camber, if you wanted to. I don't intend to have variable camber on the boat I am building. The sail hinge could incorporate stops which were adjustable, which would have to be adjusted with the sail furled. With some additional complexity and a bit of extra weight, you could rig high-test small diameter lines which acted as stops, which could be led to the bottom batten inside the sail, where they could be adjusted while underway.


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## gonenil (Nov 27, 2006)

*Wing sails*

(EDIT BY CD - Please note all users that this poster is a principle in a Wing Sail Company. Take his comments as such).

Reading some of the posts here brought me to tell you that wing sails are already there, sailing and kicking, having better performance in terms of boat speed as well as pointing, easy to handle, can be hoisted and reefed, change camber etc. In mark II, even the rig is almost similar to a standard free standing rig.
I have a lot of experience in sailing "Omer" wing sail (shall we call it "winging"?) and I do think that "every thing sails can do, wings can do better", but since human nature makes changes hard to accept and sailors conservatism is there, the rate of new concepts penetration will always be very slow.

Ilan Gonen


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

All posters should be aware that it is my understanding that gonenil is a principle owner in Wing Sail.

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

And that he clearly hasn't read the thread on full disclosure for marine industry people.


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## gonenil (Nov 27, 2006)

*Wing sail*

To all posters,

I am very sorry for not reading the rules.
I am the developer of "Omer wing sail" and I run a company under the that name.

Ilan Gonen


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## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

gonenil said:


> To all posters,
> 
> I am very sorry for not reading the rules.
> I am the developer of "Omer wing sail" and I run a company under the that name.
> ...


gonenil, sorry you got BLASTED, So did I when I started this THREAD maybe a BAD IDEA 
But all I wanted was for the wing people, designer, sailors, nasayers, anyone who might have an Idea or thought to put it here

most................. I am sure do not know who you are .......................now they do
.........................here are a few more sites......... for US all to look at

all of them have www 
 solarsailor.com
 harryproa.com/gallery.
 harborwingtech.com
 wingsails.com

    

I hope it posts

now these cat builders F.P., Morrings,Leopard,Cantaina .......... and I will go out on a big long spin pole and say that
all of these cat builders could Retro with anyone of these wings

That is what a thread is about IDEAS, THOUGHTS


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## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*harbor wings WING*

thoughts agian ?


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## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*harry proa*

well ?


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

It is considered rude to post the same thing in multiple posts on the forum.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It's a really horribly ugly piece of crap that is totally unrealistic, unfeasible and dangerous. It can't be reefed. It has way too much weight aloft. It would cause the boat to turtle in any sort of heavy weather. It probably can't point for crap either. And you're spelling sucks.



wingsail said:


> thoughts agian ?


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Sd, tell us how you really feel....


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

AllThumbs said:


> It is considered rude to post the same thing in multiple posts on the forum.


I thought it was forbidden by the site's rules.
???

_The owners of SailNet.com have the right to remove, edit, move or close any forum thread for any reason and we reserve the right to block your access to this site for any reason including if you:

* Post the same message in multiple forums - this is a forum rules violation_


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I have previously looked at HArbor Wing Technology's website. They make the following claims:



> Operation - Totally automated control is at the heart of the system, even on large catamarans, all it takes is one person and a joystick control.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


Even if they could deliver on these claims, why would anyone want a sailboat with these characteristics? Would a serious cyclist want a bike that pedals itself? Would a dedicated golfer want automatic clubs? Etc etc.

Thanks, but I like our running rigging just fine.


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## Capnblu (Mar 17, 2006)

So how much is this miracle going to cost the person who finances the dream of this inventor? say on a 40' sloop, or is it just meant for the lazy multihuller? $25,000-$50,000. I need an entire rig, talk to me. I also designed a wing sail which is reefable, anyone want to pay for the time and effort for me to build it for them? Oh, no I don't really think it would work as good as i have imagined it, but it would defiantly be unique sculpture on the right boat! Right now its just a sketch on a napkin, but I am sure I worked out all the bugs. By rights you should be able to sail backwards, (of course people already think I can do that((Tayana 42)) hahaaha! Seriously though, ahem, the overall complexity of all of the moving portions, weight aloft, and general unfamiliarity with this type of system is not going to fly in this degrading economy. Sure there may be that oddball guy who just has to have the new thing, but all of the little parts and pieces, and potential to fail, is going to kill this idea in the long run. Think of your current rig, and structure, chances are it would be a significant cost to change from a stayed to unstayed mast, on most boats. Any of the lines and current weak links will probably still exist, except of course the shrouds etc. Now add on the hinging mechanism of the frame of the wing sail. now add on all of the control mechanism to arc the foil. Now add on the reefing lines, and that mechanism to control that. Woah, too big of a risk for the (my)presumed cost of an unproven idea for me. (Napkin still for sale) hey, maybe I can bid it on that trimaran! Am I too late?


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## gonenil (Nov 27, 2006)

*Wing sails*

Being a wing sail developer, I would like to present a different approach. 
In order to drive a sailing boat we use the aerodynamic forces lift and drag, no matter if these forces were provided by sails or by wings. Wings have better lift/drag ratios than sails. It means that for the same wind force, wings provide more driving force to the boat (either faster boat or need for less sail area). Also, wing's working angle of attack is smaller than sails angle, which means better up wind performance. 
The big problem up to the present time was not the theory. It was the question of how you make an efficient wing, with simple structure, easy to use, reliable, light weight, inexpensive, and good for all sailors in any weather condition. As usual, there are at least two approaches to this problem. The first is the solid wing. This type is very aerodynamically efficient, has a better aspect ratio and, needs less sail area. However, you need a complex structure in order to enable changes of the airfoil shape (the camber), it is not reefable and it is expensive. This type of wing sail is very good for extreme speed sailing, for speed record breaking and for other exotic uses. 
The second type is the soft wing sail. This wing sail is made of sail cloth, and if it is designed properly, it can be hoisted, reefed and folds exactly like a main sail, it is easy to handle, simple as any main sail, good for short hand sailing and of course have better performance. Having a lot of experience in sailing Omer wing sail, I can tell that these design goals have been achieved, and sailing it is one of the most enjoyable sailing experiences. I truly believe that wings are the next step in the evolution of sails.


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## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

gonenil said:


> Being a wing sail developer, I would like to present a different approach.
> In order to drive a sailing boat we use the aerodynamic forces lift and drag, no matter if these forces were provided by sails or by wings. Wings have better lift/drag ratios than sails. It means that for the same wind force, wings provide more driving force to the boat (either faster boat or need for less sail area). Also, wing's working angle of attack is smaller than sails angle, which means better up wind performance.
> The big problem up to the present time was not the theory. It was the question of how you make an efficient wing, with simple structure, easy to use, reliable, light weight, inexpensive, and good for all sailors in any weather condition. As usual, there are at least two approaches to this problem. The first is the solid wing. This type is very aerodynamically efficient, has a better aspect ratio and, needs less sail area. However, you need a complex structure in order to enable changes of the airfoil shape (the camber), it is not reefable and it is expensive. This type of wing sail is very good for extreme speed sailing, for speed record breaking and for other exotic uses.
> The second type is the soft wing sail. This wing sail is made of sail cloth, and if it is designed properly, it can be hoisted, reefed and folds exactly like a main sail, it is easy to handle, simple as any main sail, good for short hand sailing and of course have better performance. Having a lot of experience in sailing Omer wing sail, I can tell that these design goals have been achieved, and sailing it is one of the most enjoyable sailing experiences. I truly believe that wings are the next step in the evolution of sails.


Daer Omar wing sail
Quote: However, you need a complex structure in order to enable changes of the airfoil shape (the camber), it is not reefable and it is expensive.

From what I was told The Wing from Harbor Wing is reefable ( split wing se photo again )............. down to almost no drag............ you should contact them and ask yourself.
Expensive that is question can be answered in many ways so I will not go there
Fast.......... there are the stayed wings like the old Stars and Stipes and the C-Class cats again they have prooven themselfs........... I think you have a great concept that almost any sailor could convert to
Regards
Wing sail

Keep up the POSITIVE Postings


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## gonenil (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks "wing sail".
Here is the way I see the trade off: rigid wing sails for super racers, soft wing sails for the "normal" sailor.
You are right - wings present very low drag when the airfoil is symmetric, Even less drag than a standard rig with all stays and shrouds. However, it can be a psychological barrier for sailors. Also, having the wing rotating up there in the marina might be an issue.
I obviously prefer a very simple soft wing (my solution: change of camber is done by changing the angle between the mast and the boom), and to have it reefed when needed as well as folded in the marina.


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## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

Ilan

well you should promote the company you own that makes $$$$$$$ for you
I just want to see all wings that is why I started The Perfect Catamaran with a wing sail, your soft wing sail is a step towards what some believe it the best.
look at Sailing Anarchywing sail there is a blog there.............. the best ot the best are there talking about wing sails and even brought up yopur with a photo, look at what they said Very good. I think there is a world for all types of wings for all types of sailor and power boaters.
thanks again, but KEEP up with the PERFECT CATAMARAN Thread


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