# Keel shape and pointing



## US27inKS

A few years ago I helped a friend template his keel.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/54867-how-template-keel.html

The shape started out as a complete disaster, and we had very little to go on for specs. So we guessed. Now I'm second guessing the decision on what shape to use.

I've known all along that we have been out-pointed by every other boat in our PHRF fleet, but this weekend I tracked it using a great little app I found for my phone. In playing back the track from the race I can see that our actual tacking angle was 105 to 110 degrees in 10kt winds at 5kt boat speed. This contradicts what we see on the masthead wind indicator that has been carefully set at 90 degrees. We can pinch a little higher than 45 degrees to the wind, but we lose enough boat speed to make it unpalatable for very long. So I have to believe that we're just making that much leeway.

My question for you super smart guys here is this: given the foil shape that we used (and it _looks_ really fast), should we have opted for something a little more forgiving like an 0010 foil shape that would produce more lift at lower speed vs the 63-009 (with an actual foil thickness of 9.786%) foil with lower drag? Would the 0010 foil given us less leeway?

The other possibilities are that I suck at trimming, or Bill sucks at driving, or both.


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## Night_Sailor

Try lengthening your forestay or head stay an inch or two.


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## SchockT

The shape that you chose initially looks reasonable. I won't comment on the merits of all the different sections you considered as that stuff is not my forte, but if you faired your keel to to that foil shape I would be very surprised if that was the cause of your pointing woes. 

There are so many other factors that could be contributing to your problem; and you've already identified 2 of them! 45 degrees is downright painful! What about your sailplan? Have you done every thing you can to improve those foils, before you start re-shaping your keel?


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## jackdale

One thought - when you installed the keel, did you change the centre of lateral resistance?


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## US27inKS

jackdale said:


> One thought - when you installed the keel, did you change the centre of lateral resistance?


Installed the keel? The keel remained attached to the boat when fairing. The draft of the keel remained approximately the same at 30% of chord. I don't think there's anything I could have done to change the center of lateral resistance.

Schock - I'm betting on the problem being crew related, and more likely me than him. We have new foredeck crew in training, but for now I trim both sails, set the pole, hoist the spin, fly the spin, douse the spin, call tactics etc. Basically everything but a little bit of traveler trimming and steering. The end result is that I do nothing very well.

Night Sailor - Good thought on the mast rake. I'll take a look at that.


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## SchockT

Sounds like you have your hands full! I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bit of attention deficit on the part of the helmsman too! With all that going on, and green crew it would be tough for the skipper to concentrate on finding and staying in the "groove". It is entirely possible that your keel profile has made that groove narrower, but I'll leave that to the engineers to debate!

One piece of advice that was given to me years ago when I was struggling with pointing problems on my Hotfoot 20 was to stop TRYING to point. Just sail the boat fast and the point will come. It worked! When I stopped worrying about trying to stay as high as the boats around me, (some of which I would never be able to point with,) and focused on my own boat, the problem went away. 

You say you are only getting 45 degrees out of her right now...if that is the case you must be getting absolutely buried right at the start! You can't hang with anyone right now?


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## US27inKS

SchockT said:


> You say you are only getting 45 degrees out of her right now...if that is the case you must be getting absolutely buried right at the start! You can't hang with anyone right now?


No, we can't hang with a soul. Even if we get a great start, inevitably someone will quickly pass us to windward. I expect to get passed, as Bill's ranger 22 is the slowest boat in the fleet, but every single boat out points us.

The rest of the fleet is made up of a pair of J-29's, a pair of Ultimate 20's, a J-80, a Laser 28, and occasionally a J-24. We will have a Santana 20 starting in a few weeks that belongs to our women's group. Perhaps we can hang with a rotating crew of inexperienced women. Maybe.


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## anthemj24

If the helmsman is spending a lot of time pinching and "trying" to point, he could just be disrupting the flow over the keel and ultimately hurting your ability hold a lane. The other thing to consider is how flat you are sailing the boat. It sounds like you are sailing shorthanded, which means you probably don't have a lot of weight on the rail, which means you are likely heeling more than other boats. The less flat you are sailing, the more you are going to go sideways, and go sideways quickly. 

The other thing is, you really should not be trying to compare how you point to the bots you mentioned. Those are all well developed one design and or performance classes, with a lot of time spent by sail makers to get a shape ideally suited to making that particular boat point. Even that Santana 20 has a cult following and therefor time spent by sail makers optimizing shapes. 

My advice would be to focus on sailing the boat fast and working on crew work and boat handling , and not so much on pointing. Sail fast, sail in pressure, and make fewer mistakes than the next guy. Your boats ability to point or not point as well as the one next to you is already factored into your handicap. The fact that you have one person doing 4 jobs is not.


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## GeorgeB

Wow, you guys are certainly committed to your racing program. How much weight did you guys remove from the keel and did you try to put it someplace? I do not think that you can take your bottom sides any faster assuming you faired, sprayed and burnished the bottom. Have you done something similar to the rudder? I have heard that some miter a ¼ inch flat on their trailing edge – but this is a speed thing and not a pointing thing.

I think you need to start looking aloft. First things first, 110* tacking angle is probably pretty normal for this mast head boat. Also, the masthead fly is measuring apparent wind angles and not the true tacking angles you are getting on the chart plotter. To bring your tacking angle in, can you re-run your T-Track so you have an 8 ½* sheeting angle on the jib? Tighter sheeting angles are what gives the fractional rigs their tighter tacking angles. After that, it is all rig tune. What is your designed rake on the mast? I’m assuming that a plumb bob should be about 5” from the ram’s horn. After that, it is all about wire tension (dial in the boat with a Loos gauge in hand). After that, it is all about driving and trimming. Most likely you are not in sync with each other on your tacks and are turning the boat much more than you should. Trimming also gets into the area of boat speed, another topic. If you need a coach, I work for beer, sandwiches, plus expenses.


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## Jeff_H

First of all, since this is a friend's boat it might be helpful to mention the type of boat that you are sailing. 

But as I read your post, I am skeptical that its a keel sectional problem, or a mast rake problem. You do not describe a lee or weather helm, so mast rake seems like a red herring, and even if you completely screwed up the foil shape, I doubt it is the problem. 

What you are describing is a classic case of bad sails, bad rig tension or bad sail trim. It is surprising how little it takes for a set of sails to be blown out enough to kill speed and pointing enough to be very noticable. 

And frankly, it sounds like your boat is point extremely badly, not just slightly so. If the 'squares' on your windex are truly set at 90 degrees this boat should never get near a race course. Because the windex reads apparent wind on each tack, the typical angles between the center of the squares (i.e. wires) on a decent race boat is somewhere around 40-50 degrees. 

I suggest that you walk us through the basics. 
What kind of boat is this?
Does the Jib have top, middle and bottom forward telltales? 
Has the lead been set so that each break at the same time? 
When the jib is full in, does the leech curl sharply inward or flutter?
When the jib is full in, what is the angle between the centerline of the boat and a line between the Clew and the Tack?
Are there leech telltales on the mainsail?
When the mainsail is set properly, is the boom on the centerline, and sighting from below the boom, is the upper batten set parallel to the boom?
Here's the trick question, do any of the battens **** to windward and do all the telltales fly? 
When the main is set properly?
Are the sails too full or too rounded? (within reason this is about outhaul tension, halyard tension, backstay tension and sheet tension- throw away the cunningham) 

Okay, when everything is set properly, can the helmsman keep the jib telltales flying?

If your answers are that the sails are in good shape and properly set and you still only show and apparent wind of 45 degrees, I would suggest that you delegate this boat to be the boat that you cruise and find a decent boat to race. ;-)


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## Jeff_H

I just saw that this is a Ranger 22. These were boats which were at their best upwind and should do its best on the upwind legs but boats like J-29's, a pair of Ultimate 20's, a J-80, a Laser 28, and occasionally a J-24 should be wildly faster than the IOR based Ranger 22 on all points of sail. The Laser and J-24 probably do not try to point as high as you guys but should really out foot you like you are standing still and still make less leeway . Nothing you can do about that. 

Sorry. But everything else that I suggested is about sailing closer to your rating. Once you have the old girl pointing properly and moving as well as she can, tactically, you need to focus on a clear air start and a way to peel off and find your own clear air lane. If you keep your air clear and find your lane, you should at least correct out better. 

As much as I hate to say this again, it is extremely hard to be competitive racing old IOR boats under PHRF and being the slowest rating in your class. If racing is important, try to find an old MORC boat of the mid-70's eto mid 1980's era as they are better rounded designs.


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## puddinlegs

Jeff, you should really stop with the anti-IOR rap. There are a couple of old 3/4, 1, and two tonnes in the PNW that are sailed well and actively. I can also think of a particular and well known Farr 1 tonner and a Wiley Hawkfarm that still do well in SF when they're out. They aren't for everyone, but the idea that they can't be competitive in PHRF is your prejudice and certainly not fact. Respectfully said I might add. Your advice in most other things is spot on.


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## GeorgeB

Jeff, isn’t a Ranger 22 more of a family pocket cruiser? How do you get IOR out of that? I think their closest competition will be the Santana 22 that is scheduled to start racing. I wonder what everyone’s rating is out there?


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## SchockT

You are definitely in tough with that fleet! The Ultimate 20 is the same hull as my Hotfoot 20 with more sail area and more ballast. It is a truly high performance sport boat, and a Ranger 22 is not going to touch it in most conditions. The only boat that you will stand a chance against might be the J24 which is an odd beast with it's own issues! It is probably closest in rating too.

You have definitely done more than the average club racer with regards to the keel. As Jeff_H points out, it is time to look at everything else. Come to grips with being tail-end charlie, because that is inevitable, you just need to focus on keeping your boat moving, and try to hold your handicap on the fleet. The one advantage that the back markers in the fleet have is that they can see what kind of wind the boats ahead have, which is good tactical info, especially in light wind!

Next time you race, take lots of photos of your sail trim. Take the pics looking up the sails from a low angle, under the boom for the main, and from the foredeck for the genoa. Do your best to get the whole sail in the pic. Post the pics here and we will see what we can figure out!

Jeff_H, you make some valid points about things they should be checking, but do you really think "you should just buy a different boat" is helpful??


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## SchockT

You may have already seen this tuning guide written by Charles Ulmer (UK Sails), but here it is anyway!

Ranger 22 Tuning

Gary Mull knew what he was doing when he designed this boat; it was very quick in it's day. There are still active class associations around where you will no doubt find plenty of tips!


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## US27inKS

Jeff_H said:


> But as I read your post, I am skeptical that its a keel sectional problem, or a mast rake problem. You do not describe a lee or weather helm, so mast rake seems like a red herring, and even if you completely screwed up the foil shape, I doubt it is the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you are describing is a classic case of bad sails, bad rig tension or bad sail trim. It is surprising how little it takes for a set of sails to be blown out enough to kill speed and pointing enough to be very noticable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would agree with this. Bill bought a new dacron main and a new 125 a couple of years ago. I've never been convinced that the guy who measured for the sails knew what he was doing. They are quantum sails, and you would think they would be able to make a set of sails off standard measurements, but they don't. Instead they rely on local "dealers" who sell a set of sails every 2-3 years to measure the boat. I think the main is pretty good, although we may not be able to get enough luff tension on it, but the 125 is junk. I won't even fly it. Instead I'm stuck trying to make his old sails work. His 155 is affectionately referred to as "the bedsheet". The very few times we have corrected out with a win was on very light air days flying the bedsheet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And frankly, it sounds like your boat is point extremely badly, not just slightly so. If the 'squares' on your windex are truly set at 90 degrees this boat should never get near a race course. Because the windex reads apparent wind on each tack, the typical angles between the center of the squares (i.e. wires) on a decent race boat is somewhere around 40-50 degrees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hence my second guessing the keel shape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest that you walk us through the basics.
> What kind of boat is this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ranger 22
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Jib have top, middle and bottom forward telltales?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 2 telltales. 1/3 and 2/3 height
> 
> 
> 
> Has the lead been set so that each break at the same time?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> When the jib is full in, does the leech curl sharply inward or flutter?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> slight flutter.
> 
> 
> 
> When the jib is full in, what is the angle between the centerline of the boat and a line between the Clew and the Tack?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good question. I'll find out Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> Are there leech telltales on the mainsail?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> When the mainsail is set properly, is the boom on the centerline, and sighting from below the boom, is the upper batten set parallel to the boom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think so, but I'll double check Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the trick question, do any of the battens **** to windward and do all the telltales fly?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm assuming you were trying to say c.u.r.l? No they don't. In my opinion, the battens need to be "tuned". I think they are too stiff, especially the top one. We do adjust tension on them, but they are so hard that they only get any curve when the wind is howling.
> 
> 
> 
> Are the sails too full or too rounded? (within reason this is about outhaul tension, halyard tension, backstay tension and sheet tension- throw away the cunningham)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Like I said earlier, I'm not convinced that we're getting enough luff tension on the main, and I don't know that it's possible with this main. Maybe I'll have him drag out his old main and compare luff length.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, when everything is set properly, can the helmsman keep the jib telltales flying?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If your answers are that the sails are in good shape and properly set and you still only show and apparent wind of 45 degrees, I would suggest that you delegate this boat to be the boat that you cruise and find a decent boat to race. ;-)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now that you mention it, there is an Antrim 27 for sale.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As much as I hate to say this again, it is extremely hard to be competitive racing old IOR boats under PHRF and being the slowest rating in your class. If racing is important, try to find an old MORC boat of the mid-70's eto mid 1980's era as they are better rounded designs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Honestly, how important can it be on a mud puddle in the midwest? A little frustrating to be sure, but in the end we're competing for a plastic trophy and the occasional bottle of rum. Bragging rights don't get you very far in this part of the world (You can _race_ sailboats???). I would just like to occasionally correct out somewhere near the top.
Click to expand...


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## US27inKS

SchockT said:


> You are definitely in tough with that fleet! The Ultimate 20 is the same hull as my Hotfoot 20 with more sail area and more ballast. It is a truly high performance sport boat, and a Ranger 22 is not going to touch it in most conditions. The only boat that you will stand a chance against might be the J24 which is an odd beast with it's own issues! It is probably closest in rating too.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't expect to outrun any of those boats unless they are having a very bad day. We did correct out faster than the Tartan 27 (which I forgot to mention earlier) last Saturday. They were having a worse day than us though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have definitely done more than the average club racer with regards to the keel. As Jeff_H points out, it is time to look at everything else. Come to grips with being tail-end charlie, because that is inevitable, you just need to focus on keeping your boat moving, and try to hold your handicap on the fleet. The one advantage that the back markers in the fleet have is that they can see what kind of wind the boats ahead have, which is good tactical info, especially in light wind!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm definitely used to it. If there's a protest, we are usually asked what we saw due to our superior vantage point on the action.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next time you race, take lots of photos of your sail trim. Take the pics looking up the sails from a low angle, under the boom for the main, and from the foredeck for the genoa. Do your best to get the whole sail in the pic. Post the pics here and we will see what we can figure out!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'll definitely do that. I'll fly the full range of head sails (weather permitting) even the 125 that I hate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff_H, you make some valid points about things they should be checking, but do you really think "you should just buy a different boat" is helpful??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I actually understand his point of view. It can be frustrating trying to talk someone through making an old slow boat a little less slow when the real answer is that it's just a slow boat. It's easy for people on the coast to forget that sailboat racing is infinitely less important to the admirals in the midwest than near big water. Telling your wife that you're going to spend 30K on a new boat so you can get the next size bigger plastic trophy doesn't fly. So we make do with what we have.
> 
> And thanks for the link on the tuning manual. I'm sure Bill has it, but now that I have it I'll make sure it gets done.
Click to expand...


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## SchockT

I am surprised that you are not happy with the new Quantum headsail. The salesman did the right thing in measuring the boat in person to confirm measurements. Any good sailmaker would do that . Quantum has a reputation for designing very fast sails, and they have very high build standards. Modern dacrons are pretty decent low stretch fabrics that will last a long time.

What don't you like about it?


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## SchockT

> His 155 is affectionately referred to as "the bedsheet". The very few times we have corrected out with a win was on very light air days flying the bedsheet.


I would think that light air would be your best chance of winning some pickle dishes! Those '70s narrow aft sections make for much less wet surface area, and that nicely faired keel will make you nice and slippery. Those wide flat sterns that make the newer boats so fast in a breeze, sure stick to the water in the light stuff! Sure, they can compensate with forward weight trim to get the stern out of the water, but alot of people don't! Certainly a 155 genoa trumps their non overlapping jibs, and a symetric spinnaker can be a better wind seeker than the A-kite. (in the right hands that is!)

When nobody can reach their hull speed it's anyone's race!


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## anthemj24

US27inKS said:


> Good to know.
> 
> I would agree with this. Bill bought a new dacron main and a new 125 a couple of years ago. I've never been convinced that the guy who measured for the sails knew what he was doing. They are quantum sails, and you would think they would be able to make a set of sails off standard measurements, but they don't. Instead they rely on local "dealers" who sell a set of sails every 2-3 years to measure the boat. I think the main is pretty good, although we may not be able to get enough luff tension on it, but the 125 is junk. I won't even fly it. Instead I'm stuck trying to make his old sails work. His 155 is affectionately referred to as "the bedsheet". The very few times we have corrected out with a win was on very light air days flying the bedsheet.
> 
> Hence my second guessing the keel shape.
> 
> Ranger 22
> 
> 2 telltales. 1/3 and 2/3 height
> Yes
> slight flutter.
> Good question. I'll find out Saturday.
> Yes
> I think so, but I'll double check Saturday.
> I'm assuming you were trying to say c.u.r.l? No they don't. In my opinion, the battens need to be "tuned". I think they are too stiff, especially the top one. We do adjust tension on them, but they are so hard that they only get any curve when the wind is howling.
> Like I said earlier, I'm not convinced that we're getting enough luff tension on the main, and I don't know that it's possible with this main. Maybe I'll have him drag out his old main and compare luff length.
> 
> Yes
> 
> Now that you mention it, there is an Antrim 27 for sale.....
> 
> Honestly, how important can it be on a mud puddle in the midwest? A little frustrating to be sure, but in the end we're competing for a plastic trophy and the occasional bottle of rum. Bragging rights don't get you very far in this part of the world (You can _race_ sailboats???). I would just like to occasionally correct out somewhere near the top.


Two thoughts in reading this post. For the luff tension on the main, you should have a cunningham rigged and that is where you should get the luff tension from. Get a full hoist on the main, and then use the cunningham to tension the luff and pull the draft forward as far as you need. On the 125, have you tried racing with it? Can you get the sailmaker to come out with you for an afternoon? If you are sailing shorthanded, and with a blownout 155 when you would be better served with a 125, that would explain the leeway you are experiencing. Sometimes what looks fast to your eye, and what is fast are two different things. To go fast and point in a J24, you have a droopy headstay and scallops in the genoa. This does not look fast to many people, especially the ones at the back of the pack with a tight forestay and smooth luff. The sailmaker should have an idea of what you need to do to make that sail work for you, get him on the boat and have him explain it to you.

I would also again stress that a fully crewed boat with everyone performing their role, and people on the rail when they need to be is super critical. You should try to sail the boat as flat as possible going upwind. That is a stubby little keel you have, and it will stop working quickly when heeled over. There is also no way for one person to effectively keep all the sails trimmed correctly all the time. The backstay, vang, main sheet, traveller, jib sheets, and spin sheets/guys, need to be constantly tweaked. You as one person have two hands, and one set of eyes, and will come up short trying to do everything yourself. Racing a boat like this requires a team, not a driver and a superhero.

I don't think it is the keel which is your problem right now, everything you need to work on is above deck, meaning your rig setup, sail trim, and crew work.


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## US27inKS

SchockT said:


> I am surprised that you are not happy with the new Quantum headsail. The salesman did the right thing in measuring the boat in person to confirm measurements. Any good sailmaker would do that . Quantum has a reputation for designing very fast sails, and they have very high build standards. Modern dacrons are pretty decent low stretch fabrics that will last a long time.
> 
> What don't you like about it?


The problems that I have with the Quantum 125 is that it sweeps the deck to the point of getting hooked on the bow cleat on every tack. I have to go forward, unhook it, then come back to trim. I can also never seem to get a good shape out of it. The luff is constantly flapping. I think it was just measured wrong.

I agree that from a sail manufacturers standpoint measuring the boat is the right thing to do. This assumes some level of competence on the part of the guy doing the measuring. The quantum "salesman" is a great guy, but I'll be willing to bet he's only measured half a dozen boats, and maybe not that many, and at the rate of a couple a year. Considering these facts, and the fact that the new 125 can be outperformed by his old 125, I have to believe that we have a problem with the way the boat was measured. This also gives me less confidence in the main as it was measured by the same guy.


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## US27inKS

anthemj24 said:


> Two thoughts in reading this post. For the luff tension on the main, you should have a cunningham rigged and that is where you should get the luff tension from. Get a full hoist on the main, and then use the cunningham to tension the luff and pull the draft forward as far as you need. On the 125, have you tried racing with it? Can you get the sailmaker to come out with you for an afternoon? If you are sailing shorthanded, and with a blownout 155 when you would be better served with a 125, that would explain the leeway you are experiencing. Sometimes what looks fast to your eye, and what is fast are two different things. To go fast and point in a J24, you have a droopy headstay and scallops in the genoa. This does not look fast to many people, especially the ones at the back of the pack with a tight forestay and smooth luff. The sailmaker should have an idea of what you need to do to make that sail work for you, get him on the boat and have him explain it to you.
> 
> I would also again stress that a fully crewed boat with everyone performing their role, and people on the rail when they need to be is super critical. You should try to sail the boat as flat as possible going upwind. That is a stubby little keel you have, and it will stop working quickly when heeled over. There is also no way for one person to effectively keep all the sails trimmed correctly all the time. The backstay, vang, main sheet, traveller, jib sheets, and spin sheets/guys, need to be constantly tweaked. You as one person have two hands, and one set of eyes, and will come up short trying to do everything yourself. Racing a boat like this requires a team, not a driver and a superhero.
> 
> I don't think it is the keel which is your problem right now, everything you need to work on is above deck, meaning your rig setup, sail trim, and crew work.





> Racing a boat like this requires a team, not a driver and a superhero.


I would definitely agree with this. Problem is that there are a very limited number of good crew available in the area. It's not easy to recruit good crew for the slowest boat in the fleet when there are positions open on J-29's. I wouldn't call myself a superhero, just willing to do whatever I have to do, albeit badly at times.


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## anthemj24

US27inKS said:


> The problems that I have with the Quantum 125 is that it sweeps the deck to the point of getting hooked on the bow cleat on every tack. I have to go forward, unhook it, then come back to trim. I can also never seem to get a good shape out of it. The luff is constantly flapping. I think it was just measured wrong.
> 
> I agree that from a sail manufacturers standpoint measuring the boat is the right thing to do. This assumes some level of competence on the part of the guy doing the measuring. The quantum "salesman" is a great guy, but I'll be willing to bet he's only measured half a dozen boats, and maybe not that many, and at the rate of a couple a year. Considering these facts, and the fact that the new 125 can be outperformed by his old 125, I have to believe that we have a problem with the way the boat was measured. This also gives me less confidence in the main as it was measured by the same guy.


A little tape over that cleat should help with the sail catching on it.


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## anthemj24

US27inKS said:


> I would definitely agree with this. Problem is that there are a very limited number of good crew available in the area. It's not easy to recruit good crew for the slowest boat in the fleet when there are positions open on J-29's. I wouldn't call myself a superhero, just willing to do whatever I have to do, albeit badly at times.


I can understand that. We are not exactly in a sailing mecca now either, so when we race nowadays it is usually just my wife and I. What we have done though is to try and divide the responsibilities as much as poissible between the two of us. So helmsman has main, traveller, backstay. Trimmer has genoa, spin sheet, cunningham, vang, and twings. At roundings, helm takes the genny or spin sheets, and trimmer manages the hoist/douse. We also learned to shorten sdail much earlier than we would with a full crew to help keep the boat flat. Going a couple tenths of a not faster was not helpful if a good deal of it was sideways.


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## zz4gta

I didn't read all of the replies, so sorry if this has been covered before.

The biggest thing you can do, is get the sailmaker out on the boat with the sails they built. This will show immediate impacts on how to set the rig and trim the sails.

Step one - are you fast? What are your target upwind numbers and are you hitting them? Here are some polars for a Ranger 23 http://www.arvelgentry.com/r23/r23_polars.pdf 
If you have speed, that's great, speed first, then work on pointing. ALWAYS, if you're slow, you won't point. Period.

Step two - This is the boat in question right? RANGER 22 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com fractional rig with swept spreaders? If that's the case, buy a rig tuner.

Step three - tune the rig (that's another thread topic).

Step four - play with sail trim. Sheet on the main. Try a little traveler up, maybe even the boom just above C/L. Some boats like this in the light stuff. Play with headsail trim. Ease the halyard a touch, this creates a finer entry and will give you more point. Lengthen the headstay, you want a little weather helm. Just a little. Trim the sheet hard, move the leads so the foot touches the chainplate when it's about to touch the spreader at final trim.

That last one is very important on my boat. If the foot of my quantum 155 isn't touching the chainplate upwind, we don't point. Period. We can't hold a lane, and then are eating **** for the rest of the upwind leg, or have to tack away on the unfavored board, heading to the unfavoured side, looking for clean air. <- yeah, that's slow, but it beats the alternative of sailing in dirty air.

Is there any difference in pointing ability in heavy vs light conditions?


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## SchockT

There is some great advice coming your way in this thread! 

Regarding the Q jib, the fact that it is a "deck sweeper" is a good thing for racing. It is not the fault of the jib that it gets caught on a bow cleat! That is the cleat's fault! What some people do to deal with cleats like that is notch out small wood blocks to fit under each horn, and then connect the two blocks together with bungee cord to hold them in place. Problem solved. As for the fit of the sail, if Quantum got it wrong, they WILL make it right I am sure! They have a reputation to uphold. Your friend spent a lot of money on new sails, it is silly to give up on them. If you have enough power to use the 125, then throw the 155 "bedsheet" off the boat and take the rating credit for the smaller headsail. There is no point being rated for a sail you don't use.


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## Stumble

I am not familure with the Ranger 22, but a 125% by itself may be your problem.

These short overlapping headsails have to be trimmed pretty far forward, and because of the stays that requires the jib lead to be moved outboard from ideal. This means on many boats you just can't get the boat to point well, because the best sheeting angle you can get is 10 degrees outboard from your 155.

Do yourself a favor, and measure the lead angle from the tack to the jib lead on the 155%, then on the 125%, and if you have a smaller inside overlapping sail, it too. What you will most likely see is a major spike in trim angle between them. If this is the case, try not carrying the 125. Just carry the 155% further, and switching to the #3 a little early. It could make all the difference in the world.


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## Jeff_H

puddinlegs said:


> Jeff, you should really stop with the anti-IOR rap. There are a couple of old 3/4, 1, and two tonnes in the PNW that are sailed well and actively. I can also think of a particular and well known Farr 1 tonner and a Wiley Hawkfarm that still do well in SF when they're out. They aren't for everyone, but the idea that they can't be competitive in PHRF is your prejudice and certainly not fact. Respectfully said I might add. Your advise in most other things is spot on.


Pudding:

I understand that there are that people disagree with my comments on old IOR designs, considering them to be a personal prejudice of mine. I agree that this may be my opinion, but that opinion comes from decades of owning and racing these boats and continuing to race them side by side MORC and non rule designed boats of the same period let alone with more modern designs. Perhaps it might help if I explain where I am coming from, and by explaining my position the hope is that certainly anyone who disagrees is free to weigh in on the parts of this that they think I have wrong.

But to begin with, I did not say that you can't successfully race an old IOR boat. What I said is "it is extremely hard to be competitive racing old IOR boats under PHRF" and I firmly believe that based on my own personal experience.

But before I explain that statement I do want to address GeorgeB's comments. The Ranger 22 began life as an IOR mini-tonner and was fractionally rigged. These were a prototypical mini-tonners designed to compete with similar Ericson, Creekmore, Holland, Tanton, and Schock mini-tonners of that same era. I think that George may be mistaking the Ranger 22 for the Ranger 23, which was a masthead rig MORC design of the same era. The Ranger 23 is one of my favorite boats of that size and era and a great little PHRF boat from that time frame. The Ranger 23 is a well rounded design that sailed well in a wide cross section of conditions and points of sail. The 23 is a boat that is near and dear to my heart. The Ranger 22 not so much...

But back to my take on racing IOR boats. It is not that these boats are impossible to race, but as a broad generality, they are less forgiving and so require a much higher llevel of skill to sail.

It is most apparent when you sail an IOR boat back to back with a MORC derived design from the same era. Jumping from something like a Schock's Santana 25 (IOR) to Schock's Wavelength 24 (MORC) or Santana 23 (same builder and designer as the 25 but a MORC boat), or from a Contessa 33 or J-34 (IOR) to something like a J-35 (no rule) for example, or from a San Juan 27 (IOR) to an S2 6.9 (MORC), the first thing that you notice is that the IOR boats are much quicker to lose speed and are noticably slower to get it back. As a result they penalize small mistakes more than a less finicky design.

You see this dramatically when you race these boats in a mixed fleet. Hit a wake when you are racing on an IOR boat, (something like the Ranger 22 in question) and you quickly see that the J-22 next to you will slow almost as much as you do, but the J22 will be back to speed much quicker, suddenly picking up several boat lengths. Hit a 5 knot windspeed increase, and the J-22 might need a click in on the jib and mainsheet sheet and more tension on the backstay, where as the mini-tonner would need a jib sheet lead change (and ideally a sail change), as well as everything else the J-22 would need.

In light air, the IOR boats of the Ranger 22 era, were designed to be raced with 170% genoas. My old quarter tonner had a light air 170% and two different weight 150's and there was a huge difference in performance between these sails so you had to pick the right sail; consequently sail changes were the norm, not the exception. Try improving the Ranger 22's light air performance by using a 170% genoa in a fleet that will allow it and the PHRF penalty will kill any chance that the boat had to save her time.

But more to the point, the unforgiving nature of sailing IOR era boats (tender and counting on proportionately large headsails even on fractional riggers) meant that you needed the right sail for the wind condition. These boats counted on comparatively narrow wind range sails in order to have enough drive for the specific condition without being overpowered. The idea that a 22 footer needs a #1, #2 and #3 to be competitive seems crazy to me when compared to something like a J-22 which can sail to its rating with only one headsail. But more to the point it also puts a premium on having the right sail for the condition. I know modern high tech sails offset this a little, but should you really need high tech sails to go club racing.

Old MORC boats like a J-24, Wavelength 24, Capri 25 or S2 6.9's were strictly 4 sail rigs (#1, #3, Spin, and Main). These MORC derived designs had bigger SA/D's and the stability to carry these bigger sail plans across a wider wind range. It meant they could use the same sail plan into lighter winds and still carry them into higher windspeeds. It was simply a matter of getting the sail trim right.

Even if you hung-on upwind, on reaches and downwind in a breeze, IOR boats like the Ranger 22 (as compared to MORC derived boats or later designs) are really at a loss in terms of being able to get above hull speed. These older MORC designs will surf more readily and will shift into semi-planning mode much more readily than the IOR boat. I remember the first time that I sailed a J-24, Capri 25 or a J-29, I was stunned at how forgiving these boats were as compared to my old quarter tonner. When I traded my quarter tonner for a Kirby 25, I could get by with a smaller crew and sail inventory and focus on steering and not have to focus on recovering disappearing boat speed.

And the factors that result in a boat being forgiving do not show up in a PHRF rating. Neither does a PHRF factor in the tactical advantage of being able to sail a little faster than a similar length boat and therefore sail slightly further in order place the boat in a more advantageous position on the course.

So while a skilled crew, with a well prepped IOR boat, can be competitive, especially in a venue where the prevalent conditions are moderate and steady, it is a much tougher battle. The skill level to get to speed and stay at speed on an IOR design needs to be much higher, and there is less room for error.

I also want to comment on my advice to change boats if racing is important to the boat owner. US27's description of the crew suggests that this is a pretty casual and novice bunch. If just getting out on the race course is okay for them, then the Ranger 22 should be okay. There is nothing wrong with not being competitive as long as you don't care. But if being competitive is important, there are a whole range of boats in a similar size and price range that might work better, including boats like the Ranger 23 mentioned above, to a Capri 25, Wavelength 24, J-24, J-22, perhaps a Kirby 25 or something like Santana 23 if trailering is important.

I know this is only my perception, although you used to see this kind of discussion in print back in the day, but hopefully this bit of an explanation will bridge some of the gap.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## US27inKS

Thanks guys. There truly is a lot of good advice being given here. And Jeff's explanation of why he doesn't like IOR boats actually explains a lot about some of the performance issues we've experienced on this boat. For example, if a power boat crosses in front of us, we can expect the boat to stop dead in it's tracks when we hit the wake.

I'll take lots of pictures this weekend, and keep track of tacking angles and speed with the various sails.


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## Jeff_H

One thing I forgot to suggest is that John mentioned a problem with the #2 catching on the bow cleats. That is never a good thing. 

It is not unusual for race boats to have a way of fairing all non-essential cleats and other hardware to the deck or mast under way. At the very least, you can experiement with rigging a piece duct tape parrallel to the long dimension of the cleat from the deck across the horns and back to the deck. 

The more permanent solution is plastic or wooden 'shoes' which slide under the horn and are tapered to the deck and have one for each horn and is held in place by shock chord through each pair of shoes. These are quick and easy to make and you just snap them on when you leave the dock and take them off after the race. 

Jeff


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## anthemj24

Jeff_H said:


> One thing I forgot to suggest is that John mentioned a problem with the #2 catching on the bow cleats. That is never a good thing.
> 
> It is not unusual for race boats to have a way of fairing all non-essential cleats and other hardware to the deck or mast under way. At the very least, you can experiement with rigging a piece duct tape parrallel to the long dimension of the cleat from the deck across the horns and back to the deck.
> 
> The more permanent solution is plastic or wooden 'shoes' which slide under the horn and are tapered to the deck and have one for each horn and is held in place by shock chord through each pair of shoes. These are quick and easy to make and you just snap them on when you leave the dock and take them off after the race.
> 
> Jeff


These will work as well.

J/24 Bow Cleat

Nothing to get hooked or caught on.


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## puddinlegs

US27inKS said:


> The problems that I have with the Quantum 125 is that it sweeps the deck to the point of getting hooked on the bow cleat on every tack. I have to go forward, unhook it, then come back to trim. I can also never seem to get a good shape out of it. The luff is constantly flapping. I think it was just measured wrong.
> .


Get the sailmaker out. Deck cleat... remove it, or get a couple of wiffle golfballs, tie them together with a small length of bungee, cut a small slot in each ball between a couple of the holes for the ends of your horn cleat, stick the balls on the cleat and call it good.

The luff is flapping? Do you mean leach?


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## puddinlegs

Jeff, thanks for the reply and the explanation of your thoughts on IOR boats. Indeed, they can take more skill to drive and don't work well as a more forgiving boat. And I agree, there's only I can think of that I might ever consider trading my own boat for, but in the case of a Ranger 22, it's not in the same class of funk and complexity as a 1 or 2 tonner. The Santana 'tuna' is also a cool and still popular little IOR mini that's often available in good shape and little $$$ that can make a great learning platform. 

I guess the trouble with lumping everything IOR together is there really are many differences between boats of the era. Something like an S&S Swan 44 is still a great cruising boat. Sure, if you're pushing the boat hard downwind in a seaway with a kite, staysail, etc... it's tough, but no one is pushing nearly as hard cruising. My own head check for IOR is something like the difference between a Carter 'Texas' one tonner, and a 37' Farr one tonner (based on design 51) that I've sailed on. The former is a horror show, the latter is a great boat that has a broad stern and sails quite well and quickly downwind. Going uphill of course is it's forte. Sailed on a mini maxi way back when that was a freight train upwind and dug a monster hole downwind when pressed. Delivery with shortened sail though wasn't an issue. 

All that said, I understand your argument. I think it's the strength of the language you use that precludes any possibility that an IOR design can still work and compete in PHRF. They do. The small boats aren't that hard to deal with. Me? I'm a sucker for pretty much anything of the era that's varnished and cold molded.  The beauty and beholder thing for sure!


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## US27inKS

puddinlegs said:


> The luff is flapping? Do you mean leach?


yes I did mean the leach. Glad someone is on the ball, because apparently I am not.


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## puddinlegs

US27inKS said:


> yes I did mean the leach. Glad someone is on the ball, because apparently I am not.


Did you tighten the leech line? Are you sailing with way too much twist?


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## US27inKS

puddinlegs said:


> Did you tighten the leech line? Are you sailing with way too much twist?


Tightened the leach line, but way too much twist. I can't make the twist go away, which is one of my reasons for not liking this sail.

Perhaps after I tune the rig according to the instructions that were linked, it will be fixed. I'm not optimistic though.


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## puddinlegs

US27inKS said:


> Tightened the leach line, but way too much twist. I can't make the twist go away, which is one of my reasons for not liking this sail.
> 
> Perhaps after I tune the rig according to the instructions that were linked, it will be fixed. I'm not optimistic though.


Without seeing picts, it's tough, but it sounds like you might be having issues with your car leads and maybe even the position of the track itself.


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## zz4gta

To reduce twist, move the jib cars forward. 

Also, get the sailmaker out on the boat.


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## jackdale

zz4gta said:


> To reduce twist, move the jib cars forward.


yep

The sheet should point about halfway up the luff.

The leach and and foot should be about the same shape.

When you think you have the sails trimmed for a close hauled with all the telltales flying aft, bear way slightly - all three sets of tell tales should break at the same time. Then head up past close hauled, all three sets of tell tales should break evenly.

The leach line is the last adjustment, just use two fingers and gently take out any fluttering of the leach. Too much leach line tension is also bad.



> Also, get the sailmaker out on the boat.


Absolutely

The best lessons on trim that I have ever had came from sailmakers.


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## Brent Swain

A keel with a sharper leading edge will stall much quicker in rough water, than one with a blunter leading edge. How sharp is best, depends on how rough the water you are racing in, and the resulting leeway angle.


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## FijiSomeDay

> A keel with a sharper leading edge will stall much quicker in rough water, than one with a blunter leading edge. How sharp is best, depends on how rough the water you are racing in, and the resulting leeway angle.


x2. A sharper keel will also stall more quickly than the blunter foil at the slow SPEEDS of the R22, in my understanding. Keel shape and thickness would be optimized (drag, lift, stall potential) for typical expected boatspeeds.

Glad to hear you are racing your Ranger 22, but that sounds like a tough fleet of competition! At least I have some old Catalina 27's to beat.

I appreciate your support on refreshing the photos of the old templates thread. I chose a shape similar to the 0010 but more of a hybrid 0012 profile at 10% thickness. I found this similar to my keel shape which was butchered over the last 34 years. Launching Sunday so wish me luck. . .

In contrast with the previous description of the J/24 with saggy headstay (light airs?) I believe the R22 prefers a tighter jibstay to point in most wind conditions. I just added a cascade to my backstay adjuster for this reason.

Check that you are getting full hoist on the main as I had a halyard shackle/nicropress that was taking up 1/2" at the sheave. Even so my new main is 1/2" shorter than stock. Replaced headboard shackle with a swage ball shackle (as was original). I get the best point with boom on centerline (traveler up). Follow the North Trim prescription--speed first, then point.

BTW I found that there is an online loft that has a new 150 genoa that would fit this boat at a very reasonable price. PM me for details.

You might find some helpful feedback by much more experienced R22 racers on the Yahoo Group mailing list.


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## US27inKS

Thanks for the comments everyone. Unfortunately I won't be getting to the lake this weekend. Our new crew is unable to make it out for practice, and the wind is gusting to 30. Not a good day for playing around with various sails and trim on a light boat.

Besides I have a hole to patch in my boat. 



> Also, get the sailmaker out on the boat.


I think some of you are confusing "guy who sold Bill his sail" with "sailmaker". If I want a sailmaker on the boat, I'll have to buy him a plane ticket and a hotel room. Real sailmakers (who can look at a mis-shaped sail and know whether it's really a cut or measurement problem) are long way away from here.


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## Brent Swain

Bear in mind that if the leading edge of the keel is sloped aft, then what is a round section, becomes an elipse when it is sloped and cut parallel to the waterline.


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## zz4gta

If you can't get to a sailmaker, take some pictures looking up the sail and email it to 3 or 4 sailmakers. They'll be able to tell you what's going on. Or, you can post them up on this site and we'll take a stab at it.


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## US27inKS

Finally got back out to the lake for a race this weekend. Only got one pic though. No time ahead of the race as the entire fleet was stuck in the harbor waiting for 40+ mph winds to pass. For the race we had 20-25 with gusts over 30. Main reefed, and flying the 90% up front. I was trimmed more for keeping the rudder in the water than speed. Maybe next time.

I will say though that after tuning the rig our pointing was better. I poked the wrong button on my tracking app and managed to erase the data, but we were pointing with everyone else.


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## zz4gta

Can't see the picture.


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## Jeff_H

That sail does not look bad except the head batten is looks too stiff.


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## SchockT

Jeff_H said:


> That sail does not look bad except the head batten is looks too stiff.


Agreed, the top batten could use a bit of taper or something. More halyard tension wouldn't go amis either. Would like to see the sail fully hoisted.


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