# What's wrong with a sugar scoop?



## dwightgry (Dec 5, 2007)

Hi all. I am a new sailor, bought a Pearson 323 after diligently searching this website, and sailed it this winter down to the Bahamas for 3 months. Loved sailing, the boat is as represented here but too small. Plans are for a Caribbean cruiser. All options are on the table, from a Pearson 424 to a 38'-40' cat to something like a Beneteau with a sugar scoop stern. I've heard a lot against them, and have developed a bias against them and don't even know why. (Typical of so many of my biases) Anyway, what is wrong with them, or right. Please no biases expressed without knowledge. This type of boat would open up many more options. Remember Caribbean, not offshore at this point. If you want to suggest any other boats, the budget is what it takes, up to $150,000. I like Island Packet 35-38 for the room, but have heard they don't sail very well.
Dwight


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

There was a thread recently on the whole sugar scoop thing. Mine has one - but it has high enough freeboard that I am not too concerned of the negativities. The only time I would think maybe one is not desirable is if you have low freeboard and the scoop literally has access to the cockpit. Otherwise I, do not think to much bias can be made against them....


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Dwight,

To make sure we're all on the same page, when you say "sugar scoop" presumably you are referring to a reverse transom with one or more swim steps molded in. If so, you should have plenty of choices if a sugar scoop is what you want -- it is the most common stern nowadays and has been for a while. 

This kind of stern has a lot to commend it. They are great for getting on and off the boat, particularly from the dinghy. Also, they are very handy if you like to swim from your boat. Often times these sugar scoop transoms will have storage lockers built into them as well, which are especially handy for storing gasoline jugs, spare propane tanks, etc. since vapors will spill outside the boat.

On the downside, for a given length boat, a sugar scoop (or any reverse transom for that matter) will be a "smaller" boat than a similar length boat with a traditional stern and comparable beam. That is to say, quite a bit of potential interior volume is forfeited because the reverse rake of the stern is essentially lost space and the cockpit as well as accommodations must be shifted forward. 

If somebody were looking for the smallest boat possible that would fit their needs, I would steer them away from any reverse transom (or canoe stern) for this reason -- in a small boat too much interior volume is sacrificed. Once you get up into larger boats for many people the advantages of the sugar scoop are well worth the trade-off. But you still have to be mindful when comparing boats of different lengths vis a vis overall value. A 40 foot traditional sterned boat will usually have quite a bit more cockpit stowage, deck space, and interior volume than a 40 footer with a reverse transom. So it's not exactly apples to apples. 

Another downside of reverse transoms, especially those that incorporate swim steps, is that their aft cabins tend to be very noisy at anchor. If there is a swim step, the transom scoop is usually carried very low, almost down to the waterline. This allows any small waves to slap slap slap on the flatish underside of the hull. If the boat has an aft cabin, this noise can get very wearisome, even when the waves are only slightly larger than ripples. (Not all sugar scoop boats have this problem, but many do.)

These are just a few of my general observations. As for biases, I have to confess that I don't prefer the aesthetics of reverse transoms in general, and especially sugar scoops. But more than likely I will own one some day...


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I have a "small" boat with a sugar scoop stern and have sailed large boats with them. Really good for loading and unloading from the dink (why I love 'em). Biggest negative (maybe the only one, IMHO) is that in rough weather at anchor or a mooring they act like a freakin' drum, so if the sterns getting pounded I've been forced to sleep in the salon.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

capttb said:


> Biggest negative (maybe the only one, IMHO) is that in rough weather at anchor or a mooring they act like a freakin' drum, so if the sterns getting pounded I've been forced to sleep in the salon.


*That's* what I'm talkin' about!!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

*OHHHH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE'RE ALL GONA DIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I HAVE A SUGAR SCOPPER, AND LOOK!!!!!!!!! IT HAS A BIG HOLE...

OHHH MY GOD..NO....

WATER IS GONNA INVADE US AND WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!

WE'RE ALL DROWNING IN THE COCKPIT

BUAAAAAAAA

BUAAAAAAAA*


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I'm really surprised that thing even floats!!    

Looks like a two-cupper!


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

I love the sugar scoop for loading and unloading. If a wave fills the cockpit I don't need to worry about the scuppers slowly draining or hoses becoming disconnected. And to me there is a big safety advantage in case of man overboard. Everything I have seen about man overboard indicates that many people have drowned after they are located, because it is so hard to bring them aboard a high freeboard boat with a conventional transom. At best it is a difficult maneuver, especially for a shorthanded crew (read "my wife") with a rather oversized victim (me, for example). With the sugar scoop, all I have to do is lift the helmsman's seat and a person can be slid right aboard.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> I'm really surprised that thing even floats!!
> 
> Looks like a two-cupper!


Want to bet you'll sink faster than me???


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

tweitz said:


> And to me there is a big safety advantage in case of man overboard.... With the sugar scoop, all I have to do is lift the helmsman's seat and a person can be slid right aboard.


This would work only in very calm conditions. You should consider having another standard plan in place for rough conditions (when you are more likely to experience a man over board). The stern of a boat is a nasty dangerous place to try to board in any kind of seaway. Alongside at the midship boarding gate is usually recommended, with a hoist assist if necessary.



Giulietta said:


> Want to bet you'll sink faster than me???


No bets, unless there's ramming involved, then I'll take it!!!


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## hphoen (Apr 3, 2003)

dwightgry said:


> ...I like Island Packet 35-38 for the room, but have heard they don't sail very well.
> Dwight


Dwight,

"...they don't sail well." is a relative term.

Being relatively heavy displacement, full-keeled boats, they won't sail as well as fin-keeled, light displacement boats in light air, nor will they go to weather as well. But I've found my IP 380 to be just about ideal for the offshore passages that I've done, and for cruising up and down the Lesser Antilles. It's a comfortable, safe boat, and the cutter rig is perfect for offshore and tradewind sailing. In light air, my asymmetric spinnaker makes sailing fun in breezes down to about 5 kts.

As far as performance, we finished First in Class, and seventh overall in the 2004 Caribbean 1500.

Don't discount the IPs. Go over to Sailnet's Island Packet Discussion Group, sign up, and ask a few pointed questions. You'll get the straight skinny from owners who know what they're talking about.

Messages


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

hphoen said:


> Don't discount the IPs. Go over to Sailnet's Island Packet Discussion Group, sign up, and ask a few pointed questions. You'll get the straight skinny from owners who know what they're talking about.
> 
> Messages


Good advise..yes...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> *OHHHH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!
> 
> WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


That is not a sugar scoop. It is a snow shovel stern. See look at the similarities:










The positive is that it allows the captain back very close to the dock (Though I have heard it requires American muscle to jump off to stop it), and the negative is that, though it has not been proven, long periods of driving it will cause hair loss.

All joking aside, the sugar scoop is awesome for your use. John had it right on in his post. I guess the only other negative might be in a quartering sea you will get more force put on the stern esp if they start breaking, but that is probably all. It would be perfect for your use and I cannot see how any of the possible negatives would outweight the positives.

- CD


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## dwightgry (Dec 5, 2007)

That opens up a whole new range of possibilities. The newer IP's look great with their scoop stern, just the right balance between access and safety. I may have trouble convincng my girlfriend to ante up the additional $$$, so may have to add some of my own! However, re: the hair loss, all I have left is what grows out of my ears. Will that be affected?
It was looking like a cat would be the only way to go, but my partner is affected by motion sickness, and I have read so much conflicting advice on the motion of a cat I'm lost. Some call them puke generators, other say they are the best. I would go for one, but the restraining factor is that we love gear, and would probably overload anything near my price range, and I wouldn't buy a large one with 4 cabins for just two people and their junk.
If wave noise reverberation is such a problem, could the inner surface of the hull be foam sprayed for dampening, like they do on steel boats?
Anyhow, thanks for the replies.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Some one who suffers from sea sickness is not fussy about the boat type they puke over (hopefully the side of). I read it's the vertical motion (heave) that is most effective at inducing sea sickness.

The loud slapping of the waves occurs on all hulls where the water exit angle is shallow. It allows the waves to trap a pocket of water for an moment. Canoe sterns are supposed to be preferable to reduce this effect. Sound proofing may help a bit. There is also a weighted skirt that can be hung around the stern to break the waves motion before it meets the hull. - Trouble is storing it and keeping it clean.


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## RealityCheck (Jun 2, 2007)

I love the sugar scoops... by far the easiest boat to get aboard from the water and from most docks that are of proper height and in many of the Carib marinas they are designed to accommodate them.

You can not beat them for dink to boat access or swimming to boat access.

Also if you have a "fear" of the "hole" all I have seen have a seat that can be installed that "blocks" the "hole" partially or completely... most never use it except possibly when on a long off shore run or when it becomes a seat. In my boat it is a nice helm seat when in the up position and a nice walk through when down where it usually is at anchorages.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Nothing wrong with a sugar scoop. I have an older version where there is no walk through. The "slapping" at anchor is more a factor of the hull design and a flat stern. I guess its all really one big common design these days, so you can't really blame it on one thing. If you don't like the sound of water on a boat, go live in a bunker.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Would someone explain the sugar scoop name definition.

As personally, I have seen two version. 
Version "A" as I am going to call it, to me, the open transom such as Giulietta, the new Dehler 34R, X35 among new designs. 

Version "b" is an extension typically added to a boat that looks literally like a sugar scoop or equal added to the boat to increase water line as the boat heels, hence making it a bit faster. I have seen a number of Jeanneaus from the mid 80's with this option. In some cases, such as the Sun Shine 36, the S38 is the same boat with the sugar scoop inclosed, much like Jodys Berberis. 

For me anyway, version B is a sugar scoop transom, version A an open an or walk thru transom. 

I doubt there is a right or wrong answer here, but version B I personally do not see a reason for it, version A, that is sexy for lack of better term, kinda like what one where you want to grab a rear........any way, better not go there........

Are both sugar scoops? One a truer sugar scoop than the other?..........

marty


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm with you, Marty... the "bolt-on" sugar scoops that you see on some of the French boats (Elite, Jeanneaus, etc - some of which look like aftermarket add-ons) would qualify for the sugar scoop label for obvious reasons of resemblance. In some cases there is no clear path from the cockpit to these extensions so the drainage advantage isn't even there.

Walk-throughs make a lot of sense to me, esp when combined with a modest stern platform (generally the only provision of the true 'sugar scoop') You get the same access to the dinghy etc and the excellent drainage aspect.

We've sailed about 700-800nm in the Caribbean on an open-transom Bene 367 - never have seen the water come in from astern.


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

I really love questions like this one. Why would we second guess designers that designed boats for specific purposes? Most of them have a much better idea of what works then we ever will. It's like asking if a 12' runabout can carry enough fuel to make the English Coast from Conneticut. Who cares!

We have a tendency to think "Blue Water" when we will never be more than 5-10 miles from the coast. Sugar Scoop is the name of the game for 90% of todays boat manufactures because that is what the customer wants for coastal cruising.

We should start a new poll. Who has been more than 100 miles off shore? Bet the 90% rule will work in that question. Then , ask the question, who intends to go 100 miles off shore? I for one say "Not in my plans!"


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

One bad thing is that Sea lions can haul out on your boat.


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Boasun,

I never thought about that one. I don't think that I will worry about it in Lake Michigan (there are a few posters on here I should probably worry about climbing on board though), but if I ever get to Pier 39 in SF I am getting a traditional stern for sure.

You got me! Score!!!!!!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm not sure they need a sugar scoop - if they want to get on board I reckon they can...










Maybe we all need to beef up our stanchions and lifelines.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

blt2ski said:


> Version "b" is an extension typically added to a boat that looks literally like a sugar scoop or equal added to the boat to increase water line as the boat heels, hence making it a bit faster. I have seen a number of Jeanneaus from the mid 80's with this option. In some cases, such as the Sun Shine 36, the S38 is the same boat with the sugar scoop inclosed, much like Jodys Berberis.


Thats an interesting question as the origin of "sugar scoop"... less the fact that the transom looks like:









I am glad mine is not bolted on less I would of taken it off by now!!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> *OHHHH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!
> 
> WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Who designed the stern of that boat, Caterpiller? It looks like the working end of a front end loader. Although I do see some French influence there somewhat reminiscent of the steps at Versailles.


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