# your favorite small cruising (blue water) boat



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ok, I know this is a bit a of a redundant question but as the summer is coming to an end I seem to be seeing a lot of good looking deals starting to pop up and when I was back in NYC I heard at the marina a fair amount of boats going up for sail. 

I went from being set on a Tartan to just having too many choices. 

So I am just curious what everyones small, blue water cruiser is, it needs to be easily single handed and have the ability to sail the world comfortably and safely.

Personally, I sailed a westsail 32 and enjoyed it, the part that made me love it was the stability I felt at sail and just as importantly was the interior comfort, size, and finish. 

So with that in mind, what woudl you recomend i start researching heavily and what would be similar interior wise?


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

If you liked the Westail, check out a SC31...same design but better engineered. They sail better and are lighter, but have slightly less interior room. There are 10+ for sale on yachworld. Of course, i am slightly biased having just poured my heart and soul into restoring mine. It floats but the work is only 1/2 done


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just be aware that the Southern Cross boats have a cored hull...with an Airex core. The Westsail 32 was solid glass IIRC. Both are very solid boats and have circumnavigated IIRC. Donna Lange just finished in an SC28.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

i had my eye on a SC actually, the advantage i saw, and thsi is without doing much research yet, was the vast amount of very dedicated westsail groups and part suppliers. 

What is everyones opinion on the cored hull? if it's in good shape is it a good thing?

anyoen knwo where i can get some godo interior pics of the SC?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Southern Crosses are pretty solid boats. Unless they damaged the hull or added a through-hulll improperly, they don't seem to have many hull core-related issues. IIRC, many had owner finished interiors, so the layout and quality of the interiors can vary quite a bit.

One thing I've seen that leads to problems on boats with cored-hulls is when someone attaches something to the interior surface, but doesn't pot the hole with thickened epoxy. If the attachment is down in the bilge, water can often get into the cored hull laminate via the screw hole. On one boat, don't believe it was an SC, there was a lot of "moisture" in the hull, and it turned out to be from a screw that was used to hold a bonding wire support in the bilge.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Cape Dory 33


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

I really enjoy my PSC Orion. I have yet to do any blue water sailing in her though. 
The boat is solid and small enough to singlehand, and its easier to finance the dream as everything is smaller and less expensive. What had finally sold me on the boats ability was the account of Brec Morgan, who solo circumnavigated his Orion out of Bloc Island. So, it can be done. The boat sails well, but it is initially a little tender. It doesn't take much to get her over to 15 degrees heel. However the boat will stay right there for some time. I've had up full sails beating in 20 to 25kt wind and the boat stayed heeled to 15-20 degrees.
It is a little small if you plan on having any good sized crew with you (wife, kids, dog)


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## TAK (Jul 14, 2003)

you might wanna take a look at the Shannon 28s ..


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*any boat that combines*

I love the hull lines of the tartan but the interior of most of the boats you guys posted here. . . any boat that is somewhere in between?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

oh and I absolutely love the head in the back of the cabin by the cockpit rather than by the v-birth


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

AmeriCdn said:


> oh and I absolutely love the head in the back of the cabin by the cockpit rather than by the v-birth


Shannon 28, PSC Dana, PSC 31, and some Flickas have the head by the companion way. I think you are right on that one. Makes a good place to toss soggy foul weather gear without messing up the whole cabin.


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

Sapperwhite said:


> Shannon 28, PSC Dana, PSC 31, and some Flickas have the head by the companion way. I think you are right on that one. Makes a good place to toss soggy foul weather gear without messing up the whole cabin.


The Mark I PSC Orion's v-berth is laughably short on the port side due to the head location and width. Haven't seen a Mark II yet, but the head is apparently narrower to allow a longer bed.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

yeah, if sonmeone can hel pme out with a list of bats with the head by the companionway, that would be fantastic, this is a huge selling point to me.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The bats usually prefer the v-berth...it's quieter and darker... and they can sleep better there during the day. 


AmeriCdn said:


> yeah, if sonmeone can hel pme out with a list of bats with the head by the companionway, that would be fantastic, this is a huge selling point to me.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

HAha, thats what i get for trying to type while at work without anyone noticing i'm on a "non work related" site lol. 


i swear, in real life, i can spell pretty good.


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

I'm sure your grammar is better, too.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TSteele65 said:


> I'm sure your grammar is better, too.


She's doing pretty well for her age...


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

TSteele65 said:


> The Mark I PSC Orion's v-berth is laughably short on the port side due to the head location and width. Haven't seen a Mark II yet, but the head is apparently narrower to allow a longer bed.


MKII doesn't have the same head configuration to take up that space. The V is full sized all the way across. Depending on how I feel, sometimes I will sleep long ways across it (sideways?), and I'm 6'0" and fit with extra room.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

maybe I can add to thsi thread, what is teh smallest boat that you would feel safe in crossing the ocean, or making very long passages, who knows, maybe an extended circumnav. i am talking smallest you would feel safe, not comfortable necessarily. (i've been living in studio apartments in Manhatten for years, now montreal, i have a big apartment adn it's too much) 

I love the smaller PSC the mroe I look at it, acept the fact that there is no head on teh smallest of them, all be it probably too small to cross with. 

Basically I want to have the most highquality, small package I can sense I can afford a high quality large boat. 

I'd rather have a tank of a little boat that I can afford to do 100% and have the highest quality of everything.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

AmeriCdn said:


> maybe I can add to thsi thread, what is teh smallest boat that you would feel safe in crossing the ocean, or making very long passages, who knows, maybe an extended circumnav. i am talking smallest you would feel safe, not comfortable necessarily. (i've been living in studio apartments in Manhatten for years, now montreal, i have a big apartment adn it's too much)
> 
> I love the smaller PSC the mroe I look at it, acept the fact that there is no head on teh smallest of them, all be it probably too small to cross with.
> 
> ...


People cross oceans on Flickas all the time. There are Flickas that have a head built in that is right to starboard as you go down the companionway. Flickas come in a few different flavors, some have outboards, some inboards. Some have a proper head, some a porta-potti, some where even ferro-cement. They might be a little small though, imagine 30 days in a minivan. 
Danas are really nice boats, and they meet the head by the companionway requirement. 
Here are a few:
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1742058/0
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1560588/0


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

AmeriCdn said:


> maybe I can add to thsi thread, what is teh smallest boat that you would feel safe in crossing the ocean, or making very long passages, who knows, maybe an extended circumnav.[...]
> I'd rather have a tank of a little boat that I can afford to do 100% and have the highest quality of everything.


I am with you on the small tank concept, but for reasoning that really leads me to the conclusion that I have no business doing it yet. My primary reasoning is that with less complexity, I could master it sooner and that mastering the boat you are on is far more important than having a "better" boat that you can't run properly. A secondary thought is that at my current skill level, it is not unlikely that I would get knocked over on a crossing and the smaller the boat, the more confidence I would have in my ability to get it upright again. I think that almost any decent cruiser has a pretty good chance of making it across an ocean unscathed, but if I am gambling with my life, I want more than just pretty good odds. I was reading about the mini Transat in a book just last night, and it mentioned that it was done on a small boat specifically designed for crossing by skilled captains and yet 7 (at the time of the printing, I guess) had been lost. I think if I have a lot of questions about what makes a boat seaworthy enough, then I am not ready; forget about which boat.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

What's small?

Mine feels small in the ocean or in Antigua... but very large when I am waxing the hull. Shiva's 36 LOA and fine for singlehanding, reasonably fast passage making and comfy to live on. To some she's small.. to others... she big. To me she is perfect.

jef
sv shiva


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Try the Ta Shing Baba 30. It's a gorgeous boat that also happens to be my perfect "small" boat for going anywhere.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

haha. I first read this thread as "Your favorite _Smell Cruising_" and thought about a nice grilled steak... dyslexic moment.


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## sanctuarysam (Sep 16, 2006)

a friend of mine once said; "it is a sad frog that doesn't brag on his own pond"..that being said..
Sabre 30 MKIII


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Joel73 said:


> haha. I first read this thread as "Your favorite _Smell Cruising_" and thought about a nice grilled steak... dyslexic moment.


well at least it was just a dyslexic moment, i have been having dyslexic days (check previous posts lol  )

Anyway, I am in love with the BABA's now but not the price.

I love the direction the recommendations have been going. What boats are similar to the BABA's and West sails, I'm most willing to shell out a bit more on a boat that is as nice as they look, mind you i haven't been in one in person. This will be my home for a good amount of time while i prepare for my trip and eventually go in the next few years.

So keep em coming!

also, what is the advantage, in your words and experience (i've read a ton) of the canoe sterns?


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

What happened to your Westsail....what was her name?


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

Hans Christians are nice, and have the same traditional look.


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

Sapperwhite said:


> Hans Christians are nice, and have the same traditional look.


And more wood than a basketball court.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Canoe sterns may provide an added degree of seaworthiness in EXTREME conditions (parting large following seas), otherwise they are mostly an aesthetic preference. Personally, I like the look, although I don't own one. I prefer the way Bill Crealock has rendered the canoe sterns in the Pacific Seacraft line (34, 37, 40, 44), as compared to other designers' renditions. Bill's just look crisper/cleaner to me, and less droopy/puffy. A down-side to canoe sterns is that you get less internal volume from a given length boat than you would with a traditional transom.

So that no one labels me a sad frog, let me plug the Pacific Seacraft Crealock 31. Similar to it's larger canoe-sterned stable mates, the less well-known 31 has a traditional wine glass transom. If you are seeking a larger boat than the PSC Dana 24 or Orion 27, with a fin rather than full keel, it may be worth a look. Note that the PSC Crealock 31 is not to be confused with an earlier PSC model called the "Mariah 31" (although the Mariah may be something you'd want to look at too -- just be aware of the distinction.)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*dinghy placement*

Just out of curiosity, any suggestions on dinghy placement and storage on a canoe stern, i saw one with a inflatable on some sort of rig on the back, but ti was a very large canoe stern boat, not sure of the make.

it seems that the easiest place would be off the back leaving room on the deck. . .


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

AC...while davits are handy for storage in settled conditions most will tell you they have no place at sea. Dinks should be on deck or rolled up and stowed when passagemaking.
I would imagine that if you are looking at a canoe stern you are thinking about passages in open water. Davits can be useful in harbors and to mount solar panels (ask CD!!) but a dink on the stern can get pooped and rip the whole structure out and literally be life threatening in bad weather.








http://www.oceanmarinesystems.com/photos_sail_p2.html
http://www.edsonmarine.com/sailcatalog07/00062.htm
http://shop.sailnet.com/product_info.php/products_id/22223?search=1&keywords=davits


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> Davits can be useful in harbors and to mount solar panels (ask CD!!) but a dink on the stern can get pooped and rip the whole structure out and literally be life threatening in bad weather.


What about a cover or pulling it up on deck and then sliding it out onto the top of the davits like it was a roof rack (with the boat upside down) for passages? Just a question based on observation and "what if" thinking - I don't have any experiences with this.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

ARB....It is the force of the water against the square footage of the dinghy that breaks things...not so much the weight and breaks things. Not a good idea but you will see many boats out there carrying dinghys on davits at sea. 
I've also seen some really expensive repair jobs to ripped out decks!


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Camaraderie explained it well. Most off-shore cruisers try to get the dinghy on deck or stowed below. Even on deck, though, the dinghy can be damaged by the force of water/waves. But it's much better there than in stern davits. 

Some big boats can get away with it most of the time, but if you do a lot of off-shore passagemaking the odds will eventually catch up to you. That said, we sailed from Abaco to Beaufort NC with a big inflatable in davits without any difficulty. My friend, the boat's owner, was comfortable with this arrangement, but I confess it caused me a great deal of apprehension (further heightened when I learned after departure that the dinghy in davits was also our liferaft for the voyage!)

If you are only coastal cruising/daysailing, you can get away with davits pretty much all the time and they are very handy to have. I don't think there are any special problems with using davits on canoe sterns -- I've certainly seen them often enough.


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## gigglingdolphins (Oct 17, 2006)

we have a Hans Christian 33, solid fiberglass 1" 1/4 on deck (no coring), for a 33 she is very roomy (queen pullman and in the head a seperate sit down shower) and has a ton of storage space, she weighs in at 18,500 un-loaded ours is about 20,000. she may not be fast unless it is blowing. but for saftey I 'll take her anywhere...well no polar caps  ok I am partical. 

Cape Dory's, Fuji 35, Baba, Dana, and a lot also depends on how you have her outfitted too. 
Have fun searching and climbing around many "homes" you will know when you find her.
we took so long and climbed around on so many boats our broker quit on us, but a year later we found her. and he lost out on his commission


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

JohnRPollard said:


> Camaraderie explained it well. Most off-shore cruisers try to get the dinghy on deck or stowed below. Even on deck, though, the dinghy can be damaged by the force of water/waves. But it's much better there than in stern davits.
> 
> Some big boats can get away with it most of the time, but if you do a lot of off-shore passagemaking the odds will eventually catch up to you. That said, we sailed from Abaco to Beaufort NC with a big inflatable in davits without any difficulty. My friend, the boat's owner, was comfortable with this arrangement, but I confess it caused me a great deal of apprehension (further heightened when I learned after departure that the dinghy in davits was also our liferaft for the voyage!)
> 
> If you are only coastal cruising/daysailing, you can get away with davits pretty much all the time and they are very handy to have. I don't think there are any special problems with using davits on canoe sterns -- I've certainly seen them often enough.


What a nightmare that could be - sinking because the stern was torn up when your lifeboat was ripped away!

Thanks for the education, guys; I will try to file this one away in some of the few remaining good brain cells so maybe I will remember it when the time comes.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Here's my list... all aren't exactly blue water though....

J Boats 34C
Sabre 34
Wauquiez Pretorien 35
Wauquiez Hood 38 
C & C 36
CS 36T
Niagara 35
Morgan 382
Tartan 37


Thanks,
Craig


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Bayfield 29 or 32


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## sailing320 (Jul 5, 2007)

How about Island Packet?


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailing320 said:


> How about Island Packet?


Awesome boat...

It didn't make my list 'cause of the $$$$


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## sailing320 (Jul 5, 2007)

I was starting to think Island Packet's were not good boats. Nobody says anything about them!


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailing320 said:


> I was starting to think Island Packet's were not good boats. Nobody says anything about them!


Well... I probably should add a disclaimer to that...from what I've read, and seen, they appear to be very well made. I've never sailed one.


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## Zogumwesterly (Jul 24, 2007)

*Morgan 382*

The morgan 382's are excellent boats sail great and have been all over this big blue marble


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I loved the Benetau 323; pop is trading his Nordhavn in, paying off the loan and using the equity to buy one. We spent 4 days aboard one, it would be perfect for my little family as a liveaboard / racer / blue water cruiser. 

If it is just me and one other person for the blue water, and we aren't planning on hammering through any huge storms, I like my "little" Lancer. 

The only thing I don't like about both boats is that you have to sweep and clean like 3 times a day. If you have more than two people aboard it just gets messy so stinking fast!

If I had an unlimited budget, I would go for a 42', but no bigger. I singlehand a lot and it would be almost impossible to bring into port a ship any bigger.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailing320 - I really like the IP's - our neighbor has owned one since like the 70's. It is very stiff, not as "tender" as most sailing boats I've been on with the same 11' (ish) beam. I guess if you're heeling 25 degrees, you're almost in a knockdown condition for other boats. 

The woodwork inside was beautiful - I think it was all solid hardwoods. The upper deck and cockpit is laid out exactly like I would want a sailboat to be, I feel very comfortable with her boat, and have made several changes to my own to match it.


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## sailing320 (Jul 5, 2007)

Lancer28, I will have to say IP customer service is great. My boat is a 2001 which has been discontinuted. A cople times a year a call the factory for a part and they immediatley send it to me. About a month ago, I called them and they mailed me replacement parts at no charge. It is great to have a product that has such good customer service.


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