# Flag Etiquette/Registry Conundrum



## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

This probably a silly, no brainer question but I keep getting conflicting information so I thought I would ask. There are no stupid questions, right? Please tell me that is so!

My husband will be the listed owner of our boat. We live in Texas, but he is not an American Citizen but is a Brit. We were told that because he is not an American citizen, he can not register the boat as a US vessel. My daughter and I carry US passports and are US citizens. We own a home here in Texas and my husbands visa is renewable indefinitely, which is why we haven't tried to go through the ordeal of getting a Green Card for him( its a major pain in the butt and we are only here for a max of two more years)

We were told that we would have to put the home state on the boat, but not the home port. This seems to be weird advice. Why on earth would you have the state but not the home port? 

What flag will we fly? It would seem suspicious to me to have a boat enscribed with a US home port and then to fly a British flag. Sounds like a great way to get boarded non-stop by any and all officials. If we plan on keeping the boat in the states with us for the next year and a half, wouldn't we wait to register it in the UK once we actually move back there?

To quote the immortal Mugatu "I feel like I am taking crazy pills..."


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Put the boat in your name, fly the US flag and put the town and state on the transom.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

We looked at that option, but putting it in my name ups our insurance by $1200 a year. If that is the only sensible option, then so be it but there are lots of things I'd rather spend $1200 bucks on...like Malbec and Blair Atholl whiskey.


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Been there....*

Simple answer...(assuming that Tx is similar to Florida.) Two options;

1. State registration of your vessel with the usual annual state decal and the TX etc. number on the bow.

2. Your husband cannot Document the vessel even if he has a greed card. All owners must be Citizens. He could transfer the vessel over to you but then the transom would have to bear the vessel name and US home port. You would still have to get the annual state decal but you need not have the bow numbers and lettering. The decal goes on a window on the port side of the vessel.

I would recommend option 1. and you can put;

"Willie Wonka" of London on the transom and fly the red duster, but it will attract attention, especially in Texas. I would suggest flying the US flag and keeping your husband below decks.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

I'll take option 1 and thank you.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

What if the boat is in _both _your names?

I have dual British/Canadian citizenship, but my wife has sole Canadian citizenship. While I could go through a lot of red tape for the "honour" of flying the Red Duster from my stern, I will happily live with the Canadian ensign and my home port of Toronto.

Interestingly, the Red Ensign is the merchant flag of the United Kingdom, and likely became the _de facto_ civil yachtsmen's ensign due to an old law restricting the use of the Union flag (the familiar Union Jack) strictly to British Navy vessels. Thus Britain is one of the very few countries where the national flag is prohibited as a civilian ensign...it is illegal for a British registered boat to display it at the stern.

Conversely, however, it is permitted to use the Union Jack as a courtesy flag on non-British boats.

The whole lore of flag etiquette is fascinating and frequently bizarre, like learning about a Japanese tea ceremony and the 101 ways to spoil it via a slightly wrong gesture.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

> The whole lore of flag etiquette is fascinating and frequently bizarre, like learning about a Japanese tea ceremony and the 101 ways to spoil it via a slightly wrong gesture.


That is the most apt description I have heard yet.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Valiente-
"What if the boat is in both your names?" Doesn't matter. US federal documentation is available to pleasure craft if and only if a US citizen is at least the 51% owner of the vessel.

You could put the boat in six names and have five of them on the terror watch list, and as long as you could prove that owner #6 was the 51% owner, you could document it with a US flag. But--there's no way to apportion ownership that way for civilians, only a business (i.e. a partnership, or corporation) would normally apportion ownership that way.

Etiquette and regulation are two entirely separate matters. A boat which is state registered (there is no federal boat or car "registration" in the US) is usually allowed to fly a US flag without question or comment. In many states you become a resident AND CITIZEN OF THAT STATE after simply residing there for 30 days. And that has nothing to do with federal citizenship. Tejas? Dunno, that's not America, that's a separate place.(G)


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## noreault (May 14, 2008)

Actually states don't have citizenship only residence. But voting privileges are only extended to residence with US citizenship.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Actually noreault the first sentence of the 14th amendment to the constitution is:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
Splitting hairs but it is observed in the state of California.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Sorry, noreault, you must be a foreigner or an enemy agent.

The New York State Constitution also specifically refers to CITIZENS of THE STATE.

Bear in mind that 13 colonies (states) existed before the Confederation of the United States, which predated the current Federal Republic of the United States, and that these colonies had CITIZENS, not just residents.

The Confederation of course is not to be confused with the "Confederate States" aka the Confederacy.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Mimsy said:


> This probably a silly, no brainer question but I keep getting conflicting information so I thought I would ask. There are no stupid questions, right? Please tell me that is so!
> 
> My husband will be the listed owner of our boat. We live in Texas, but he is not an American Citizen but is a Brit. We were told that because he is not an American citizen, he can not register the boat as a US vessel. My daughter and I carry US passports and are US citizens. We own a home here in Texas and my husbands visa is renewable indefinitely, which is why we haven't tried to go through the ordeal of getting a Green Card for him( its a major pain in the butt and we are only here for a max of two more years)


*Put the boat in all three names, then 66.666% will be American owned, and you can USCG document the boat and fly the US flag on it.* Having your husband on the USCG documentation should take care of the insurance issues....

One good reason to do this is that cruising to foreign countries can be a bit more difficult with a state registered boat. Also, re-registering the boat in the UK would be far simpler if the boat was USCG documented IIRC.



> We were told that we would have to put the home state on the boat, but not the home port. This seems to be weird advice. Why on earth would you have the state but not the home port?


You are legally required to have both the home port and state on the boat's transom.



> What flag will we fly? It would seem suspicious to me to have a boat enscribed with a US home port and then to fly a British flag. Sounds like a great way to get boarded non-stop by any and all officials. If we plan on keeping the boat in the states with us for the next year and a half, wouldn't we wait to register it in the UK once we actually move back there?
> 
> To quote the immortal Mugatu "I feel like I am taking crazy pills..."


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Or form a corporation and hold title that way and see if your insurance company is good with your husband named on the documentation as the "managing owner".


> In addition to individuals, corporations, partnerships, and other entities capable of holding legal title may be deemed citizens for documentation purposes. Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S; the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens, and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens.


Not sure what would be required to be considered a "partnership", and you are at the least "domestic partners" right now?


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

If the boat is only in US waters then just use state registration, don't need to be a US citizen for state registration, just a legal resident. 

Then for outside US waters, as a Brit maybe get Crown Territory registration; BVI or Caymen which don't require all the EU requirements of UK registration.

I am a Brit, when I got PA registration for my boat, a drivers license was all I needed for identity, Texas may be different.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks Ulladh, I will look into the BVI option as we are definitely planning on sailing in international waters.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Link to a company that does yacht regitration in BVI

British Virgin Islands Yacht Registration Process


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## noreault (May 14, 2008)

Actually I am a US citizen and graduate of the SUNY system. If you look at the NYS constitution you will note that it uses citizen, but when mentioning voting rights or holding office it says US Citizen and resident of New York. The use of citizen is kind of archaic, but I stand by you are a citizen of the US and resident of a state. You don't apply for citizenship in a state, nor lose it when you move. Simply a resident.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Any problems mooring a BVI registered boat in the US?


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Check with the Texas registration authority, but as long as you pay the required fees and taxes the boat is state registered, not USCG documented.

Pay the fees for BVI registration and that will be the registration outside US waters.

Double taxes and fees?

Check with CG, and Customs for reporting requirements when returning to US waters.

Some parts of the Carribean I have been lead to believe are OK with state registration only.

OR

Just have the boat BVI registered and you are in transit in the US

Reporting requirement for entering Houston area
http://www.customs.gov/linkhandler/...ons/houston_brochure.ctt/houston_brochure.pdf


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Any problems mooring a BVI registered boat in the US?"
None, except that as a foreign yacht you will need a cruising permit which is good for not more than one year, at which point the boat has to leave US waters and be re-admitted. And the usual details of establishing flagging, title, ownership, changing insurance, little things like that. You'll probably lose the state registration when you flag it foreign, as well.

"If you look at the NYS constitution you will note that it uses citizen," Yep. Which makes them the standard and the law, regardless of any of our opinions to the contrary. The indivisibility of state and federal voting rights is entirely another issue. Among other things, the state military laws require state militia service for state citizens--not residents, but citizens. And those laws are the basis for the National Guard and the federal draft, which are both in turn limited and superceded by the state laws in every state. NG service is based on state citizenship, federal draft and federal militia service (I think that's 10 USC offhand) are based on federal citizenship.

Residency, domicile, and citizenship are all very different things. On both state and federal levels.


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## Bellamar (Apr 1, 2009)

Are you people saying that non Americans cannot register boats in the US? So if a Brit millionaire wants to register his giga yacht in Florida, he can't? Why. Let him pay the taxes and support the economy. I'm sure Canadians in BC have boats in the US and have them registered in Washington State.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Bellamar, We are saying "only an US Citizen can DOCUMENT a boat with the Coast Guard, A non-citizen cannot be a majority owner of a documented vessel" . However a wealthy non-citizen can register a boat with ANY state in which he can physically locate the boat and be liable for property taxes in that state. Regardless of documentation or registration all boats are subject to state property taxes in the state they are berthed in.
We don't let nobody escape any taxes we can possibly pin on them.


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

Most of the boats in mediterranian have a US flag. Due to high taxes, a US company is established in Delaware with foreign ownership and the boat is registered to the firm. If you can do it in Delaware there must be a way to do it in your state also. Check:

Incorporate in Delaware - Delaware Registry, Ltd - Delaware Incorporation servcies for LLC limited liability and general and yacht incorporation. Delaware resident agent services form your company in Delaware.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*Yes, but these companies have to have majority US Citizen ownership. *


celenoglu said:


> Most of the boats in mediterranian have a US flag. Due to high taxes, a US company is established in Delaware with foreign ownership and the boat is registered to the firm. If you can do it in Delaware there must be a way to do it in your state also. Check:
> 
> Incorporate in Delaware - Delaware Registry, Ltd - Delaware Incorporation servcies for LLC limited liability and general and yacht incorporation. Delaware resident agent services form your company in Delaware.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Only US citizens can get USCG documentation, as SD stated non-US citizens can have part ownership in a US corporation that can then get USCG documentation. 
This is the same for most nations, only citizens can register or document their vessels under a national flag.
Registration by individual states is a requirement for keeping a boat within the states waters. 
Most states will have a requirement for registration if the boat is in state for more than 60 or 90 days, even if the boat is registered in another state. The owner does not have to live in the same state as the boat is registered.

States will have different sales tax, use tax and registration fees regulations that will usually apply upon that 60 or 90 day limit.

USCG documentation may releive the boat owner from state registration requirements but not tax requirements.
Non-US flaged boats in transit will require a cruising permit and may also be subject to state 60 or 90 day limits.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I find it astounding that in this day and age people don't understand that not all nations are the same, and that a [semi or once]sovereign state is not the same as a nation.

The United States is a Federal Republic consisting of 50 sovereign states, and eleven "insular territories" aka war prizes and other scraps of less than sovereign lands.

Some nations are confederacies, like Canada and Switzerland. Then there's the "United Kingdom" which is not the same as England, either.

Since, in theory, a US-flagged vessel literally "shows the flag" and is entitled to the full protection of the US government, including the use of military force, it only makes sense that non-citizens need not apply. If they want the protection of the US government--they can apply for citizenship here. Your choice, flag it wherever you feel protected.

There is very little federal motor vehicle regulation in the US. There is no federal motor vehicle registration in the US. The only federal ("US") aspect for pleasure craft, is that federal documentation is available to them, if they are at least 51% owned by a US citizen or business. Corporations must follow the same standard, 51% ownership by US citizens or they can't document the vessel here.

This is AFAIK for two limited purposes only:

First, to establish clear and definite title for the highly portable goods, to discourage theft and fraud. That's fairly recent, based on the HIN which has only been required since 1972. Second, federal documentation serves to maintain a database of available vessels and owners for military conscript. That's right, there are many old and disrespected legacies in the laws of all nations, and ours includes provisions to find out where there are boats, so that if we need to pull of a domestic Dunkirk evacuation, or send George Washington's Ghost across the Delaware again, someone will be able to pick the right boats off a handy list. (Filed in a cabinet under "A" for "Armageddon Plans" one hopes.)

The "United Sovereign States of America" is, despite the efforts of many wrong-minded leaders to the contrary, still a federal republic, and by law it is supposed to remain that way. With 50 mainly sovereign states, each with very different laws in them. That way if one or two screw up, we can vote with our feet and move to someplace else that's more reasonable.

But if you want to talk about states-versus-nations...Just look at Germany and Italy, each less than half the age of the US, each built from many competing states. Tell a Sicilian that you're a Florentine about to marry his daughter, and you may have have one heck of a spat on your hands. Italian? Yeah, that's a good one. American? Like apple pie, not one apple.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nicely said HS...


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Maritime law was obviously written long before we became such a mobile society. I have no desire to renounce my US citizenship, my husband has no desire to renounce his UK citizenship ( though if Scotland ever declared independence I think he just might).

The US laws regarding property rights for foreign nationals is pretty straight forward. Moveable property becomes a whole other headache. When you factor into the equation that Texas is a community property state it becomes even more confusing. Who owns the boat, Him? Me? Both of us?

We aren't even that concerned with tax implications. What we are concerned with is being able to sail to a foreign country with as few headaches as possible and being able to get reasonable insurance. A state flagged vessel will have problems entering a foreign country. A US flagged vessel with a Captain carrying a British passport will raise eyebrows, as would a British flagged ship in its home port in Texas.

Ugh. I need a concierge service who will sort this all out for us, handle the paperwork and let me get back to my job. This is taking far too much brain power for something that should be relatively straight forward.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, if you, your husband, and daughter owned the boat jointly, having you aboard, as the owner of record, and him aboard as the captain of record, then his British papers probably wouldn't be an issue, especially if you have papers proving you're married. 



Mimsy said:


> Maritime law was obviously written long before we became such a mobile society. I have no desire to renounce my US citizenship, my husband has no desire to renounce his UK citizenship ( though if Scotland ever declared independence I think he just might).
> 
> The US laws regarding property rights for foreign nationals is pretty straight forward. Moveable property becomes a whole other headache. When you factor into the equation that Texas is a community property state it becomes even more confusing. Who owns the boat, Him? Me? Both of us?
> 
> ...


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Good point *SailingDog*, now if only the insurance companies would be so reasoned. :/


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Mimsy—

Expecting an insurance company to be reasoned or rational... umm, not gonna happen.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Mimsy said:


> A state flagged vessel will have problems entering a foreign country.


Yes.



Mimsy said:


> A US flagged vessel with a Captain carrying a British passport will raise eyebrows,


No.



Mimsy said:


> as would a British flagged ship in its home port in Texas.


No.

Seems to me the easiest thing to do would be to register in a red ensign country and be done with it. You can fly the red ensign on the stern and the US flag in the courtesy position.

Check with CBP on requirements for being in the US. It can't be too bad -- there are a number of red ensign boats near me that have been here for several years.

sail fast, dave


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Dave-
"A US flagged vessel with a Captain carrying a British passport will raise eyebrows," Technically you are right, but only because a "captain' may be many things including a hired hand. You're out of context here, because on a privately owned recreational vessel we say "Captain" to mean what is legally called the "Owner Operator" who is also the Master.
You claim to own a US-flagged boat, and you have a foreign passport, and you will be interrogated on it because that's simply illegal. You can play pilpul here, but we all know the context the question was asked in.

Similarly, it doesn't matter what you've seen flying on loal boats, no one can legally keep a foreign vessel in US waters indefinitely. Again, in context, a foreign flagged privately owned pleasure craft can be in the US for no more than one year--at which time it has to LEAVE to get the cruising permit renewed. Conveniently, a boat in Texas can hop down to Mexico or other destinations while doing that, and the odds are you just having been keeping a careful attendance poll on the boats that you think were in the US all year. Or, they're simply here illegally.

Which is a good way to get your boat seized and to find yourself deported from the US on a pemanent basis.

It really is't so hard to find the laws onj these things. Although, you get extra points if you find the treaty obligation that allows British-flagged vessels to sail up the Mississippi without having to enter or clear US Customs. (Hint, that's an OLD one.)


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