# Stuck Swing Keel - Suggestions



## nerys (May 2, 2010)

OK from my other thread I got myself a 27ft sailboat. I know its water tight as I removed it from the water where it was docked.

SO discover the swing keel is rock solid frozen. I banged and pulled as hard as I was willing to for fear of damaging the fiberglass hull its attached to.

as a last resort it seems 8 bolts will remove it from the boat itself. Thats a last resort as I have yet to figure out how to safetly LOWER and then RAISE an 800 pound keel  I am strong but not stupid or that strong  hehe

SO here are some pics of the keel its metal on metal. 5 cans of PB blaster of months have had no effect. there is 8 bolts holding what I will call the "keel pivot mount" to the boat and then a single large bolt that is the actual pivot and a stainless line going up into the boat.

The line is free and loose. the keel really is just corrode in place. It has not been "swung" in well over 10 years sitting in the water.

SO suggestions on how to free it? Once I can make it MOVE even through say 5' of rotation back and forth should be enough at that point to free it enough to let me remove the pivot bolt and seperate the two halves.

at that point I would use a grinder to clean it all up repaint rezinc (?correct?) and reinstall the keel.

I have suggestions from torching it to using japanese saw blades or sawzall style blades etc.. to get between the two pieces. I would like to try and avoid creating "slop" unless you guys tell me that is not a big deal?

Suggestions?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have no brilliant suggestions except that I might try something like Ospho which is phosphoric acid in an attempt to consolidate some of the rust at the overlap. I would suggest that you try that before getting too exotic.

Some heat applied to the outer layers might help as well.

If that does not work, I suppose you could try to unbolt the keel and lower it to the ground, bolt a wideflange (steel I beam) to the keel stub and then jack the swing keel against that I-beam.

If none of that works in the worst case you may need to fabricate a new keel and stub. That would be a real pain in the butt. There is a reason that cheap boats are cheap,

Just for the record, you don't own a 27 footer. You own a Luger Tradewinds 26. That is actually good news because there is a pretty active user group for the Tradewinds 26 and you can get access to a complete assembly manual at tra26 : Tradewinds Assembly Plans and so knowing the correct make and model is a helpful thing.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## SuenosAzules (Apr 11, 2010)

*Stuck swing keel..*

I am big on safety. I can tell you that if this were my boat... based on your description and the photos, it appears you have an excessive amount of corrosion on the assembly, and even more corrosion that you may not even see. I would completely disassemble the keel, and have some qualified help with it as well. Renew the keel by taking the corrosion off, and putting it back together once the entire system is like new again.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

If you can't find Ospho which Jeff mentioned you should be able to find Naval Jelly in a good hardware store. They both have phosphoric acid in them that neutralizes rust.
Was this boat sitting in salt or fresh water?
Good luck getting that keel moving. The grinder will be your friend.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

this site is linked to the one Jeff gave you The Luger Sailboat Mooring - Seving Luger sailors since 1999 at home port www.lugerboats.com nice pic and drawing of the interior too!

don't drop the keel... LIFT THE BOAT! leave the keel on the trailer!

block the boat with 4x4's and brace it in place then roll the trailer out from under with keel on it put the trailer back while your working on the keel away from the boat.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

My, my what have I found?


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## nerys (May 2, 2010)

well there is doubt if its a luger (though I think it might be its REALLY similar) and it is a 27 footer the stats say 26.92 feet (to me anything over 26.5 and under 27.5ft is a 27footer.)

the keel is NOT on the trailer so the problem remains of how to "lower" the keep to the trailer frame (if I go that route) safely.

ie how do I lower 800 pounds 8 some inches without killing something and still be able to MOVE it 

I absolutely plan to fully restore that keel. When I am done it will shine pretty and have brand new paint and not one spot of rust or corrosion.

I just need to get it to MOVE first so I can remove that bolt and sep it into 2 pieces.

Then I can go to town with the grinder and bristle wheel and clean it up nice and shiny 

Denise. Thanks a lot. a new link for me to burn hours on  hehe

FYI your tripod link is not working.

ahh got it copied the image location. They don't allow third party filtering ie "linking"

Just C&P the link into your browser
http://tradewinds26.tripod.com/blueprints/tra26-swingkeel-2of2-fig6-col.jpg

that sure looks like my keel  more and more conclusive that its a luger 26.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nerys—

The corrosion on the iron swing keel is the problem. Iron expands 10% when it rusts. 

DO30— Nice work, as usual.


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## nerys (May 2, 2010)

wow. that sure explains why its seriously tight 

so what is this ospho and where can I get some?


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## merc2dogs (Jun 5, 2004)

Build a support frame with plywood and 2x stock, wheels or not depending on preference, remove the pivot bolt which should allow the fin to separate from the stub.

Odds are the rust between the sections has expanded and snugged everything up on the pivot, so it's clamped together tightly.

Your support frame should look like back to back triangles spaced for a slip fit on the keel,(4 triangles, two at each end, cross braced together) a jack or screw on each of the lower flat sections to let it down when the bolt is removed. Alternative is to use blocks and let it down a block at a time with one jack 

If the winch is working, you should be able to let the back down without a jack

Ken.


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## nerys (May 2, 2010)

thats just it. I am 99% confident removing the bolt will NOT free the fin from the stub (is that what the part attached to the boat is called?) and I feared losing my pivot point and last means of applying force to make it move.

although if the bolt is pinching the two sides together then it very well could free it or at least make it a lot easier to get something wedged between them.

I guess I don't have much to lose so it is what I will try.

Getting it DOWN is not such a big deal. The winch works. I would wrap another winch around the entire boat under the front of the keel. Then loosen it and the normal winch till its resting on the frame.

but how do I then raise it back up again? that is the tricky part. it would take at least 3 people to lift this thing

is there anyway to know how heavy the extension is versus the stub? I am concerned I will have trouble "man handling" the keel back onto the stub.

I figure I will definitely hitch the trailer up to the van when I do this to make certain that boat won't move anywhere 

I got a 12v dirty water pump. (this way I can also use it ON the boat if I need to) so monday I will get the rest of the water out and keep it out and search the woods for my hatch and hope I find it


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## dhilderman (Jun 19, 2010)

Hi: Mine is moored in fresh water. Last year when I attempted to lower the keel I had the same problem. I wiggled the winch for 30 minutes and it came free. I put my boat in the water this year and the same problem.


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## nerys (May 2, 2010)

I am about half way through all the corrosion. its still stuck but I can see the at the end of the tunnel now  the power washer is working great at chewing up the corrosion.

I got a full work week with the census this week so no time to work on the boat


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## ulferlingsson (Jun 10, 2010)

Pressure washer sounds good, I was thinking sand blasting. Home Depot has a $9 sand blasting gun. You also need a compressor, and sand. That might, I say might, help you in tight spots.

On my boat I just ground off the bolt. I had to do that on both sides to get it out, though. Counterintuitively.


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## nerys (May 2, 2010)

Hmm my bolt seems fine in fact I am now deep enough I can see the bolt and its nice and shiny clean. my corrosion is BETWEEN the stub and the swing keel. ie the two parts were fused together.

I have been reluctant to REMOVE the keel since I am not sure how I would PRECISELY raise an 800 pound hunk of metal into place to reattach it 

I have been hitting it with PB for months now must have expended 10 can on it. Then while I was pressure washing (2500psi gas pressure washer) the ideal hit me to try and clean the keep as well and I noticed some of the fused material was eaten away. SO I put the nozzle in needle point mode and got frisky with it.

WOW it ate that stuff up like it was candy into a 5 year olds mouth. BLEW MY MIND. in 10 minutes mre than 50% of the corroded material was history! not enough for the keel to MOVE yet but wow.

I expended 2 more cans of PB and next week (got a full 40 hours work week this week which I needed so boat was put aside) I hope to attack it with the pressure washer again Monday I will expend another can of PB on it.


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## nerys (May 2, 2010)

Here is a picture after the last pressure washer attack. Notice the nice large GAP between the stub and keel. Previous there was ZERO gap. I could not even slide a piece of paper inbetween them.

You can also JUST see the big bolt holding it on their. its nice and shiny so I think its going to be fine.


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## ulferlingsson (Jun 10, 2010)

I don't know what PB is, but the way it looks now, maybe pickling gel (phosphoric acid etc) might be appropriate. The bolt looks good, some pickling gel and it will be good as new. 

Do you know exactly what it is that is preventing it from rotating now? It looks like a BIG gap...


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## nerys (May 2, 2010)

yeah more corrosion on the back half where its harder for the water jet to get aggressive with it 

PB Blaster is a penetrant rust eater spray. They did have some gels but I have no method with which to get the GEL "onto" the corroded stuff directly. PB is a spray so I can get it into everything.

I have not had time to "try again" since this pic was taken (work work work) but I am confident it will move the next time I attack it. Will get some good zincs for it and pb it after every run from now on.

I think the keel was up and boat in the water for some 15 years  I am surprised its not worse than it is.


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## nerys (May 2, 2010)

Here is a picture before I figured out I could use the power washer. You can see there is NO gap. The second picture the lightened area is my estimate of how much I have "cleared out"

so allllll the rest of that area is still sealed up tight with corrosion (green arrows) more than enough to hold it firmly in place and keep it from rotating.

I think when I clear about 70-80% of the corrosion I think I will be able to get it to move once I do that should be a lot easier to clear the rest of the corrosion. One concern I have is should the gap be this large? will I need to shim this to stop it from doing the wiggle wiggle in the water?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Forget the wire brush and grinder route and get it grit blasted on a dry low humidity day and paint with a zinc based epoxy WITHIN 30 MINUTES OR LESS of blasting finishing.

The grit blaster might also be able to get into the swing joint and free it off by blasting out the rust.

See here for the paint
MIL-DTL-24441C Type III Epoxy Zinc Rich Primer - Protective & Marine


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

Having just refinished my second cast iron keel, this one a retractable, the first a swing keel, I'd definitely remove the keel from the boat first. I took the swing keel off using a hydraulic floor jack on a sheet of plywood. I made up a U bracket that kept it from falling off the jack. I also left the cable tight until it was completely unbolted.

Then I'd use a good sizehand sledge hammer to tap vigourously all over the joint area. this will remove a lot of the heavy outer rust that a sand blaster will have trouble with. It will also crush the rust between the two parts and help to free it up.

This is going to be a tough job! I don't believe heat will help. I did heat my 1500 lb cast iron keel to over 400 F before sandblasting it. Then I put the first coat of epoxy on while it was still a little over 100 F. The reason is that the first keel I did the opxy wouldn't cure for two weeks, until I heated the cast iron and drove the moisture out over the course of anther week. This time I heated above boiling to gaurantee it was dry.

I used a 500,000 BTU weed burner style torch. Works best with 100 lb propane tank. 20 lb tanks freeze solid in about 5 minutes, and heating 150 lb of cast iron took an hour.

Gary H. Lucas


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## nerys (May 2, 2010)

Hmm I don't have that kind of money. that might have to wait till next spring.

Where do I get this paint? how expensive is it? (maybe I can rent a blaster or maybe tow it to someone and have them blast it for me or something)

How would I get the paint between the parts? is it an aerosol? will it go that deep?

DO I need to worry about the size of that gap or is that normal?

Yeah I did not think a torch would have anywhere near enough btu's to do diddly squat to this much metal  I was thinking of making the whole keel a "heating element" but I don't have a power source that can handle that many amps  hehe

I do have a weed flame thrower will have to see what its BTU's are and I do have a couple 100pound tanks too so that might work.

I will look into the u mount on a floor jack idea. My problem is not getting it down its putting it back up  If it was suspended in the air it would not be so hard but I have to maneuver underneath a trailer to do it.

that is another thing lowering the trailer will help with. I can "slide" the keel out the back and then "slide" it back in and only have to lift it a tiny bit to put it into place. I plan to have a CHANNEL the keel will sit in this will make the boat self center when I retrieve it and also "hold" the keel vertical for maintenance.

I might just spray some rustoleum add some zincs and worry about the hard core tear down next spring 

How much force can I apply to that keel without fear of damaging the hull its attached to? the reason I have not attempted any sort of "force" yet is fear of damaging the boat itself.


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## ulferlingsson (Jun 10, 2010)

I know that people use a gas weld to heat drum brakes that are rusted stuck, but I don't know the chemistry. Thinking that maybe heating the rust changes it chemically so that it shrinks (ridding it of water). If so, could be worth a try (just don't burn your boat!). I mean heating outside where it is stuck, so that the heat reaches the inside and there alters the state of the rust.

Does anyone have experience with this approach?

PS. Saw in a reference this statement: "At about 200 °C, the iron(III) hydroxide converts into Fe2O3." So that is the critical temperature to reach...


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I am a big believer in using heat to free off rusted parts but not in this case as there is a significant risk that the heat will get transferred to the GF hull and do damage.

If you don't grit blast then just prime with any old primer and slap on some antifouling. You will have to do it again next year but you will get some sailing in. 

As for hitting it with a sledge hammer, don't do it. BUT if you can use 2 sledge hammers and hit from both sides at the same time this will help. This is not that easy to do.


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## nerys (May 2, 2010)

yeah thats what I thought. Fiberglass is amazing stuff but it does not like violence  so I will stick with the chemicals and pressure washer for now 

so does anyone know if the GAP I am forming is a problem? I have never seen one of these up close besides MINE so I have no idea if that gap is normal and nothing to be concerned with or if I should be looking at shimming it??


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## macka17 (Apr 2, 2016)

If you have access to a scabbler (needle gun) bigger the better.
and possibly own/have mate with, or can hire a compressor occasionally over the winter (YUK.
We live in the Tropics. 18 deg C is cold for us)
I've had steel yachts since 1961. and a scabbler is a mans best friend. it'll shift rust from everywhere.
Do external parts of exposed blade first. then starting at bottom of case just move slowly along front to back. 
The vibrations usually break up and shift the scale.Then work up casing inside the boat.
We've loosened a few (smaller boats) boards that way.
Pouring Acid down inside casing first over a period then start scabbling.

If that don't work. Make up an internal hull frame with stiffeners going up hull sides as far as possible.
remove swing casing and fabricate another with stub keel on it that you can weld/bolt a fixed plate to it.
get some plate from scrap steel yard and make up a fixed keel. 
We've done that with two back in '60's but a lot depends on quality of hull and thickness of lower glass for that one.
With Cheoy Lee I'd drill a coupla test holes in hull first.
I've seen a couple on the rocks (Older 40/50fters) and the resin content leaves a LOT to be desired.
I wouldn't have gone to sea in them.
Regarding spacers.
If you get it out worry about it then. A little doesn't hurt but it's easy enough to spacer/shim.
You only have to do that at the entry point of casing not the whole thing. Maybe again at top if a deep one.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

How much (financial and emotional) do you have invested in this boat??

From my calculated eye I'd say basket case. Scrap. If you had the gear, the knowledge and a plan as to how to fix this I'd say you had a chance. But as a newbie to the process the time and energy you're going to spend to make this totally average old boat simply workable is immense.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Macka 17 and jackdaw:

This thread is SIX YEARS OLD!

If he hasn't got the keel out yet, he ain't gonna :>-)

Bill


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## macka17 (Apr 2, 2016)

Sorry mate didn't look at date.

How did he go then. or was it as post after me said. Dreamer.

If it been neglected long enough to get swinger like that. what's the rest of boat like.

On Hard. Maybe
in water = Osmosis. Specially with one of those.
Apart from anything else.

I bought a lovely, very neglected 28ft fixed keel Full length Jarrah Planking. All deck frame, Coachhouse etc Teak and Mahogany. 
PLYWOOD bloody decks. 
Stripped decks and replaced with fresh Ply/Epoxy. recaulked. Injected Mix of Everdure and thinners till soft timbers soaked and solid when dried.
Beautiful sailing boat. loved 25kn plus. but 18in MAX freeboard. Wet as.
I had her for 7 yrs. but 3months of yr. every year.
Was maintenance. in and out of water.

Not financially viable once love affair had gone. just a pleasure to sail and beautiful eye candy.

They cost a lot more than you think. in both finances and time.

I was retired (at 49yrs) so had plenty of time but spending a lot more time in my ocean going boat/s (steel) to keep her.

She slowly slipped away to oblivion with owner after me. Young keen but too muck work for these young fella's and don't have a clue as to how a calk ine goes in properly. That HAD to be kept up with every slipout. Several seams a season.. Then was stripped for her planking and now is a lovely Jarrah Deck round the front of a house with sea views.
First launched in '65.

Those old cheap neglected boats are such for a reason.
Worn out and sucker bait Dreamers galore.

Mine was just a toy so she got a longer life.
But was just sitting on a mooring waiting to sink when I bought her for $3000.plus $5k+ more.
and yrs out of my life.But being craftsman built with fine timbers. Worth it.
She was Royal Yacht Squadrons Commodores toy when launched. and held a few local records. 
Magnificent vessel to sail, in heavier(wetter, Oilies only over 20 kn) weather.
But I had her at 7 to 8.2 kn regularly, reefed. on GPS. 
and 12kn once with Heavy Ghoster and broad reach in long offshore swells..

Those old timber boats really do talk to you with every creak when working.
Harder she worked. more water in bilges.(extra ballast I reckoned. Mate used to **** himself)
but never took a drop on mooring. Just flexing.
I doubled every rib from stem post to aft of shroud bases. extra deck beams round mast area and across transom when replacing decks.
Stempost Keelson/Keel and stern frames were all Ironbark and Jarrah. Solid and Laminated.

End of reminiscing hey. Back to Plastics.


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