# asym spinnaker vs. traditional



## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Hello all,

Yesterday, I raised the spinnaker for the first time on my new (to me) Olson 25. I was single-handing (as usual) and it... um... didn't go well. I'm now looking into an asym spinnaker in hopes that it will be easier to single-hand. I would like to race this boat, and I'm wondering if it would be feasible to use the asym and get similar performance on a windward/leeward course (going faster, but with a higher wind angle)?

Thanks for the help.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

No, it'll be much slower and jibes will be painful.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

StephenMaturin said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Yesterday, I raised the spinnaker for the first time on my new (to me) Olson 25. I was single-handing (as usual) and it... um... didn't go well. I'm now looking into an asym spinnaker in hopes that it will be easier to single-hand. I would like to race this boat, and *I'm wondering if it would be feasible to use the asym and get similar performance on a windward/leeward course (going faster, but with a higher wind angle)?*
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Generally not. Typically boats designed for poled kites do best with them, as they can achieve their VMG angles with the pole pulled back. Heating up will give better boat speed of course, but at the loss of VMG. Indeed, most PHRF boards now give credit to boats switching to asyms for this reason.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

It very much depends. I am not familure with the 25, but I used to have an Olson 30. So I will answer for that boat.

The 30 is not quite fast enough to make an asym work on a w/L course most of the time. The real trick to a good asym is that the boat needs to be fast enough to pull the apparent wind forward and allow you to sail deeper and the Olson just isn't but it's right on the cusp. 

On the other hand an asym is far easier to handle than a symetric and for short handed racing the ease of dealing with it may be faster than trying to deal with a symetric. So there may be an advantage if you are racing solo on short courses.


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## ordkhntr (Mar 14, 2016)

I crew on an Olsen 25 and we try to race with at least 4 people. 5 is better and 3 is a ton of work. We've raced and flown the kite with 2 and its an adventure for sure! An asym wont be anywhere close to as fast. Might be easier to launch and take down but jibing will be a bugger.


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## rckfd (Dec 3, 2015)

StephenMaturin said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Yesterday, I raised the spinnaker for the first time on my new (to me) Olson 25. I was single-handing (as usual) and it... um... didn't go well. I'm now looking into an asym spinnaker in hopes that it will be easier to single-hand. I would like to race this boat, and I'm wondering if it would be feasible to use the asym and get similar performance on a windward/leeward course (going faster, but with a higher wind angle)?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Practice, practice, practice, you'll find the "go button".


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you're going to make a habit of flying a symmetrical spinnaker solo, you will need a reliable self-steering method for the crucial maneuvers like setting, dousing and gybing. And, as mentioned, practice, practice, practice...


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

ordkhntr said:


> I crew on an Olsen 25 and we try to race with at least 4 people. 5 is better and 3 is a ton of work. We've raced and flown the kite with 2 and its an adventure for sure! An asym wont be anywhere close to as fast. Might be easier to launch and take down but jibing will be a bugger.


I would have thought that on a 25ft boat, 800lbs (4 extra people) of additional ballast would have a rather significant negative effect on boat performance.

Maybe leaving four crew members on the dock and trading the ease of gennaker v spinnaker would be a step up, especially if your rating offers further advantage?

But then I'm a cruiser not a racer.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

jackdaw said:


> Generally not. Typically boats designed for poled kites do best with them, as they can achieve their VMG angles with the pole pulled back. Heating up will give better boat speed of course, but at the loss of VMG. Indeed, most PHRF boards now give credit to boats switching to asyms for this reason.


Am I wrong when I think that the further back the pole gets, the further off the wind/more downwind/slower you are getting? How does this help VMG?

I wonder if my boat was "designed for a poled kite". I never knew that boats were designed to suit sails, always thought sails were designed to suit the boat.


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## Lazy Jacques (Sep 20, 2012)

Omatako said:


> I would have thought that on a 25ft boat, 800lbs (4 extra people) of additional ballast would have a rather significant negative effect on boat performance.
> 
> But then I'm a cruiser not a racer.


Most good ole racers from the 80s that you see on the PHRF scene today using symmetrical kites sport light displacement, high buoyancy hulls, married to a large upwind sailplan. They need to be sailed as flat as possible upwind to hit their polars, and that means weight on the rail (in the form of crew); otherwise, they get overpowered, heel over too much, spill wind, want to round up, and the tiller fighting this effect creates drag, and all of this slows you down. To a lesser extent, extra crew weight also helps such light boats bash their way through oncoming seas. The J/29 I sail on in BC, a 5500 lbs boat, typically likes six to seven people, and we've used 8 and even 9 in heavy weather. Downwind, extra crew weight does become a liability, but if you keep them forward, out of the cockpit, to get the widest part of the boat out of the water, the penalty is less than what you pay going upwind short-handed. Crew weight management at all points of sail is definitely critical for successful racing, however. Hope this helps.


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## Lazy Jacques (Sep 20, 2012)

Omatako said:


> Am I wrong when I think that the further back the pole gets, the further off the wind/more downwind/slower you are getting? How does this help VMG?


That's right: the deeper downwind you sail, the slower you go (as lift decreases), and the further back you bring the pole, to a maximum of about 45°. The slower speed is offset, however, by a more direct course sailed to the mark. The J/29 I race in BC is a good example: on a light wind day, say under 12kn (90% of our sailing weather in BC!), we head quite steeply downhill, and slowly but surely win the downwind leg, as the asym boats criss and cross: without enough wind to plane well and go really fast, they can't bring the apparent wind in close enough to head down deep, and have to reach back and forth to the leeward mark. We'll be doing 7 knots, but the boats flying asymmetrical spinnakers sail twice the distance and only do two or three knots more of speed on average. In higher winds, then everything flips: we'll top out downwind at 9 knots (maybe 10-11 on a surf), and the asym racers are all planing at 12+, and can sail deeper as they get their apparent wind forward. The fastest boats that sail in this manner (some cats and tris come to mind) effectively sail upwind on BOTH windward and leeward legs! This is why they forgo spinnakers altogether and use Code 0s.

As a general rule, for windward/leeward racing, displacement hulls are designed to use symmetrical kites, and planing or semi-planing hulls are more successful with asymmetrical kites. Some, but not many, use both types, depending on conditions: the PHRF penalty is significant, however. Needless to say, triangular courses favour planing boats with asymmetrical kites, and they'll handily pass the older boats on the reaching leg. Offshore, asym boats also typically do well, if you find yourself reaching for any significant part of the race.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Lazy Jacques, for a low post count you gave probably the most concise response I've seen for a very complicated subject. Huge kudos, and spot on. Been trying to get this across to some of our locals... We just got a J80 in our mixed fleet of mostly 80s vintage displacement racers (my S2 7.9 an example)... they are all besides themselves on the subject. My comment was in our venue, as long as we set W/L courses, the 80 will be equally matched if not outmatched, but if the course strays even slightly from W/L, or goes to a course with an offset, they'll crush everyone.

The Olson 25 is a nice light air machine... it DOES need railmeat to sail well in anything over 8 knots true. I also second the idea of getting a tiller pilot if you plan to launch that symmetrical solo.. but make sure you get a pass from your RC to allow a tiller pilot, for shorthanded racing  as that's technically a no no.


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## StephenMaturin (Jul 10, 2010)

Nice discussion. Thank you.

I do have a tiller pilot. Looks like I just need to practice more with the Symmetrical Spin and I'll be good to go. 

Thanks again.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Stephen, if you perfect it, video it for me, I could use any help I can get.


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## Lazy Jacques (Sep 20, 2012)

This thread has run it's course, I guess: just wanted to thank you Shnool, for the kind words, and wish the OP luck with solo kite work. There's a guy in my PHRF fleet here in Vancouver who sails an Express 37 solo, and has perfected the art of raising and dousing his asym kite on W/L races (and distance races, too) with uncanny ease and expertise. That's right: you can imagine the size of kite that is carried by a 37' racer-cruiser! He regularly wins his div, and all this without the use of an auto-helm!!! (forbidden here, I believe, in PHRF). I haven't asked him, but I think he simply uses the clutch on his wheel part-way, so he keeps it from swinging freely, while still allowing some steering: I've observed him standing in the forward part of the cockpit, say, hauling on the halyards during a sail change, quickly reaching behind his back to move the wheel fairly forcefully one way or another to correct his course. Looks tricky, but he's obviously mastered it, so I'm sure you can do it too. Good luck, and please follow up on your progress, as single- or double-handed racing is something I've been thinking about as well.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Lazy Jacques said:


> This thread has run it's course, I guess: just wanted to thank you Shnool, for the kind words, and wish the OP luck with solo kite work. There's a guy in my PHRF fleet here in Vancouver who sails an Express 37 solo, and has perfected the art of raising and dousing his asym kite on W/L races (and distance races, too) with uncanny ease and expertise. ....


Not only that, he wrapped a sheet around the prop at the latest race, swam to clear it, and then caught up with the fleet once again.

But one has to wonder... will no one sail with him????


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Lazy Jacques said:


> This thread has run it's course, I guess: just wanted to thank you Shnool, for the kind words, and wish the OP luck with solo kite work. There's a guy in my PHRF fleet here in Vancouver who sails an Express 37 solo, and has perfected the art of raising and dousing his asym kite on W/L races (and distance races, too) with uncanny ease and expertise. That's right: you can imagine the size of kite that is carried by a 37' racer-cruiser! He regularly wins his div, and all this without the use of an auto-helm!!! (forbidden here, I believe, in PHRF). I haven't asked him, but *I think he simply uses the clutch on his wheel part-way, so he keeps it from swinging freely, while still allowing some steering:* I've observed him standing in the forward part of the cockpit, say, hauling on the halyards during a sail change, quickly reaching behind his back to move the wheel fairly forcefully one way or another to correct his course. Looks tricky, but he's obviously mastered it, so I'm sure you can do it too. Good luck, and please follow up on your progress, as single- or double-handed racing is something I've been thinking about as well.


Even when full on, wheel locks are designed to allow easy moment of the rudder by turning the wheel. It's a safety feature. Locking the wheel simply prevents the rudder from turning on its own.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

"effectively sail upwind on BOTH windward and leeward legs!" 



I've heard this said of ice boats can you help me understand.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

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albrazzi said:


> "effectively sail upwind on BOTH windward and leeward legs!"
> 
> I've heard this said of ice boats can you help me understand.


Hi perf multis and ice boats sail at such speeds that they 'pull the apparent wind' forward to the point that they are always 'reaching', and often 'close reaching'. "Sailing upwind" might be a tad overstating things; they are unlikely to be actually 'closehauled' unless truly beating.

Bear in mind that they never do DDW either...


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