# Galley Remodel



## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

I have pretty much decided I need to do a remodel / redesign of my Galley. One of my primary concerns is the icebox is under the starboard quarterberth and thinkin if i give up some storage under the galley i could fit it in the starboard galley and get more depth and room for better insulation maybe eventually goin to a holdover plar or some other type of refer system. With the change from the old stove with oven to a gimballed wallas 1000 with no oven i have alot of space below there perhaps if i moved some storage to there i would be able to fit the icebox in the counter top.
DISCOVERY 32 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
any constructive ideas and suggestions would be helpfull.
I am not afraid to build new cabinets from scratch
Bill 
SV Rangatira
Sailing the Rangatira


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Bill, I have only used my oven one time in the five years I've owned my Morgan 33 OI - just once. Most of the meals are either prepared on the stove on on the gas grill mounted on the stern rail. That space the oven takes up would be far better utilized if I had a nice refrigerator/freezer there.

Good luck,

Gary


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Things like this are truly personal...

Myself, I don't like the top-load counter fridges/freezers because they take away counter space...duh..which can be used for scattered/unorganized space.
Ideally, on a mono hull, I'd like to have pull out fridge/freezer that's under dedicated disorganized space above. 

Although I can make pizza that would kill you and me, I really have no real need for an oven. I think ovens are more of a chick thing. 

Fridge thing....
The portable fridge/freezers out now are pretty darn efficient. 
People are spending a lot of money building in-counter, permanent installs to be efficient.

Maximizing use of space is key and takes some talent. 
I won't do it, but think it would be nice to have portables stored under counter to be pulled out and pushed back in as needed.
Portables can be replaced easily when/if needed...thinking longterm...just allot the space.

On another thread somebody had talked about the potential pain and questions of using a 1/4 berth for storage.
We have many new relatively inexpensive 'containerizing' 'efficient packing' plans and systems readily available. That market really bloomed in the past few years...meeting the need....some good stuff.

Again, it's personal.
And if you go too far with it - trying to perfect - you'll cut down on your chill time...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The Discovery 32 is most likely pretty much a 'stick built' boat (ie not many liners, if any). So you are probably free to do whatever you like as long as you avoid disturbing structural stuff.

A friend recently installed an Engle fridge drawer.. sounds like what RU is mentioning above.. makes sense, you still have the cold conserving top load, and good containment when heeled and it frees up precious counter space if there's room for it somewhere. 

You galley looks a little tight, maybe the nav table area needs an upgrade/repurpose while you're at it.


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## clip68 (Jun 26, 2014)

RegisteredUser said:


> Things like this are truly personal...
> 
> Although I can make pizza that would kill you and me, I really have no real need for an oven. I think ovens are more of a chick thing.


Nice. A "chick thing".


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I know there were several ladies in the Florida Keys that loved to bake stuff, not just make pizza, which was fine with me when they came to my boat with loads of cookies, cakes, pies and fresh baked breads. I think, though, that they liked to experiment on this old man. Some of those cookies, especially the brownies, I suspect had more in them than I was aware of.  The fresh baked breads were absolutely awesome. One couple had a near solar oven on their boat and it worked very, very well on dry land, but on the boat it was marginal at best because of the boat's constant movement on the mooring buoy and it's failure to maintain the correct position with the sun. I sincerely believe that at one point while living aboard, I could have easily survived on the fish I caught, fresh baked bread and margarettas. 

All the best,

Gary


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Small counter top space is naturally cluttered, for me - a magnet for junk.
Kinda like my work desk... 

Enlarge counter space and take away from lounging space....win/lose...

I will experiment with racks, net hammocks, etc. 
I'll use the oven for some type of storage.
The top load counter fridge is there, so it will stay there, dedicated.
The portable freezer unit..prob 60ish qt will need to be fitted...somewhere.

I'll be working on some way to comfortably sleep in the cockpit.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

RegisteredUser said:


> ...
> 
> I think ovens are more of a chick thing.
> 
> ...


Huh.

For what it's worth, I just returned from an offshore passage where the oven was used often by the male skipper. For cooking, not storage.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Donna_F said:


> Huh.
> 
> For what it's worth, I just returned from an offshore passage where the oven was used often by the male skipper. For cooking, not storage.


The capt may have felt it was safe because a woman was onboard to supervise in case there were problems.
Still, it's not recommended.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

RegisteredUser said:


> Things like this are truly personal...


This is about the only thing you posted in this thread that I can agree with. It's all downhill from here.



RegisteredUser said:


> Myself, I don't like the top-load counter fridges/freezers because they take away counter space...duh..which can be used for scattered/unorganized space.
> Ideally, on a mono hull, I'd like to have pull out fridge/freezer that's under dedicated disorganized space above.


Top-load refrigeration and freezer space is certainly a compromise but there is little disruption for an organized cook. Mise en place. Cooking is a fundamentally organized activity. To do otherwise is more time consuming, inefficient, and--at sea--can be dangerous.



RegisteredUser said:


> Although I can make pizza that would kill you and me, I really have no real need for an oven. I think ovens are more of a chick thing.


That is an extraordinarily sexist statement. I think you owe our distaff members an apology, and while you are at it one to the males @T37Chef who you imply are incapable.



RegisteredUser said:


> Fridge thing....
> The portable fridge/freezers out now are pretty darn efficient.
> People are spending a lot of money building in-counter, permanent installs to be efficient.


No. The portables are more efficient than portables used to be. They can't even come close to a properly installed, well insulated permanent refrigerator and/or freezer. Consider Ah/day/cu ft as an efficiency metric. @deniseO30



RegisteredUser said:


> Small counter top space is naturally cluttered, for me - a magnet for junk.


Which makes your counter space ineffective for cooking, time consuming to secure to go sailing, and potentially a hazard underway.



RegisteredUser said:


> I will experiment with racks, net hammocks, etc.
> I'll use the oven for some type of storage.


That depends on what you are planning to store. Racks can be useful for cans, jars, boxes, and containers and of course pots and pans BUT you need a way to secure items. Racks and net hammocks may be okay for foodstuffs aboard a marina queen or a boat whose anchor is screwed to the bottom but underway you will make oranges into juice and apples into sauce. The most appropriate use for net hammocks is for clothes and children's stuffed animals.

The only items suitable for storage in an oven are permanent and disposable baking pans, and perhaps your cast iron bake- and cookware. Anything else gets in the way of the primary mission of the oven.



RegisteredUser said:


> The capt may have felt it was safe because a woman was onboard to supervise in case there were problems.
> Still, it's not recommended.


First, I am that skipper and I take personal offense at your boorish sexism. It takes some doing to offend both women and men in a single sentence. By the way Donna's role in the galley on this trip was once washing the dishes (_once_) and eating my food.

Second, "not recommended" by whom? You? What credentials do you have in either naval architecture or the culinary arts to make such a recommendation?

An oven aboard provides a tremendous amount of flexibility and greatly broadens options. While there are certainly stove-top expedients like a pressure cooker with no seal and the Omnia they are nowhere near as good as a real oven, even a small one.

I strongly recommend an oven with a thermostat on the lower burner and a broiler for anyone who plans to use their boat and cares about eating well. If a boat has an existing oven without a broiler definitely get a grill but offshore they tend not to be helpful; there are some other mitigations. If your oven has no thermostat get a good oven thermometer you can see through the window - people survived for centuries on that basis.

In a two week delivery discussed elsewhere in SailNet we used the oven for stuffed shells; lasagna; bacon; baked chicken; steaks; roasted cauliflower; roast pork loin with potatoes, carrots, and celery; and probably something else that slips my mind. I didn't get around to baking bread or making cookies this trip.

I commonly bake cookies when engaged by yacht brokers as a skipper for sea trials - the smell in the boat makes everyone happy and fresh cookies make discussion of issues found proceed with more civility. One local broker tells me my cookies have saved a couple of deals.

On one of the trawler forums I participate in there have been long discussions with participation by men and women about the selection and use of ovens.

On Facebook there is a "Cooking on a Boat" group that regularly addresses oven use.

In short, an oven is an important element in any kitchen or galley. To leave an oven out of galley remodeling plans is short-sighted. You might as well say that a toilet doesn't really need a seat.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Bill, if you don't plan on installing another oven, then the extra space could be used for either a cabinet or drawers. That alone shouldn't be too difficult. The comments about top loading box, I wouldn't worry about. The only counter space I have IS the door to the icebox. When it's closed, no problem. Just a matter of getting what you need and organizing before you prepare foods. to me, a minor issue.

Will it be just an icebox or will you be installing a fridge compressor system? Just have to plan out how much space you'll have left once the insulation is in place. I have seen some good fridge modifications. So, I think, it could be well worth it for the extra trouble.

Good luck to you.



Faster said:


> A friend recently installed an Engle fridge drawer


I've heard good things about the Engle boxes. Another Nor'sea owner has one, a cooler type I think.



SVAuspicious said:


> In a two week delivery discussed elsewhere in SailNet we used the oven for stuffed shells; lasagna; bacon; baked chicken; steaks; roasted cauliflower; roast pork loin with potatoes, carrots, and celery; and probably something else that slips my mind. I didn't get around to baking bread or making cookies this trip.
> 
> In short, an oven is an important element in any kitchen or galley. To leave an oven out of galley remodeling plans is short-sighted.


Good info, Dave.
During my refit, I've considered putting in an oven, not just for pizza, but for a lot of similar things you mentioned here. Not interested in cutting into my nice galley cabinetry right now, but it does make sense to keep it in mind. I don't look at it as losing storage space, but gaining another tool for cooking a wider variety of food.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

How the hell does galley design become a "chick" thing? LOL


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

There's good news and bad news about a top loading refrigerator/freezer. The good news is they tend to me more efficient than front loaders because you don't completely dump all the cold air when the door is opened. Mine draws 5 amps when running, but on the thermostat, it only turns on for about 1 minute every 10 minutes, resulting in very little battery drain during the night. During the day, my solar panel keeps up with and charges the house batteries at the same time.

The bad news is you must be organized in the galley. That refrigerator lid is also part of the counter top, which is needed for preparing the meals. If you are not organized, this can be a problem, especially when preparing a meal during rough weather. There has been times when I had to heave the boat to in order to safely cook dinner, but once the boat was properly hove to, I had no trouble cooking.

With a front loading refrigerator/freezer, the newer ones tend to draw very little current, however, in rough seas, things tend to dislodge and bounce around unless they are housed in the door compartments. The open shelves are like any home refrigerator and things will slide all over the place, break and leak. Nice for dockside cruisers, bit not the best thing for coastal and offshore cruising.

My oven/stove combo is gimballed, which is fine when the boat is gently rolling, but worthless when the boat pitches. It, like most is only gimballed in one direction. I'm sure there are fully gimballed models available, but the strain on the gimbal must be incredible. 

One of the neatest things that happened on my way home while cruising up the Georgia coast was when I went below to make lunch for myself and crewmember. 20nminutes later I returned to the cockpit with a cold beer, grilled hotdogs on toasted buns, with cheese sauce, relish, honey mustard and chopped onions, and some piping hot french fries. My sailing partner was elated. Said it was the best tasting lunch he had on a boat in years.

Good luck on whatever you decide upon,

Gary


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I am a male-type person and I love an oven. Obviously I don't have one on my Catalina 22, but when I charter I use the oven all the time.

A couple years ago I got a boat with a broken oven and it totally messed up our planned meals. We had to crumble up a frozen lasagna and pan fry it, for instance. My wife macgyvered something together with a large pot, some utensils, and aluminum foil to make a stovetop "oven" so she could make cookies.

I love to make an enormous breakfast sometimes. Eggs scrambling and bacon frying on the stovetop, while asparagus roasts, biscuits bake, and Cuban beans reheat in the oven. 

Besides, there's the rumor that an oven will act as a Faraday cage and protect electronics from a lightning strike!


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

*Besides, there's the rumor that an oven will act as a Faraday cage and protect electronics from a lightning strike!
*

Yeah, I read that somewhere as well, but fortunately, never had the opportunity to test out the theory. 

Gary


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

My boat, built in Florida had no cabin heater, but its propane stove's oven makes an excellent substitute.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

travlin-easy said:


> There's good news and bad news about a top loading refrigerator/freezer. The good news is they tend to me more efficient than front loaders because you don't completely dump all the cold air when the door is opened.......:


The portables are all top-load - it's just a matter of finding/creating space for them.
Square corners are sometimes hard to fit into curved spaces....efficiently.
The architects do well creating workable space, but it's never one size fits all. 
I have the in-counter top-load fridge and want to add a portable freezer, so I'll either find unused or under utilized space, or repurpose some space.
When it's meant for the galley, ease of access is key....on a galley mission, don't slow me down.

Limited baking can also be done in a grill.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Casual memory says that portable coolers--even the great ones--and reefer drawers still all have maybe half the insulation of a really *good* built-in top loader. Or can anyone find a spec from Engel or someone that contradicts that?

A good dutch oven or pressure cooker (which I never loved because you have to cook by rote, if you try to lift the cover to see how something is doing, you lose more time than the whole business saves) can certainly replace a conventional oven for many things. And using an oven as a faraday cage is, I'll concede, not the best way to protect electronics.

But still, if you like to BROIL FISH OR CHOPS, you can't do it the same way without a decent broiler. A black iron frying pan is all well and good, but not the same.

Of course a bag of Snickers obviates the need for any cooker at all, doesn't it?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

"Work triangle" should apply to gallery layout imho


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Casual memory says that portable coolers--even the great ones--and reefer drawers still all have maybe half the insulation of a really *good* built-in top loader. Or can anyone find a spec from Engel or someone that contradicts that?.....


Good point.
What I've looked at is amp draw for both built ins and portables to keep a certain temp level, regardless of the thickness of insulation.
I've not yet found solid info that the built ins are surpassing the latest portables, but that's something to check...and to post about, please. 
I've read reports from others who have the Adler Barbour Cold Machines saying the amp draw they experience is X, and that is greater than being reported on the new portables.
I have not gotten reports from new keel cooling systems.

Properly built built-ins, in my mind, should perform better than light weight and small footprint portables. I think a lot, if not most, of the current built ins are add-on fixes for something that people wanted to see improved.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Numbers are always a good game. A long time ago my friend was proud of getting 28mph in a Beetle. I pointed out that the 21mpg I got in a V8 Mustang was actually better mileage, way better mileage, considering I was pulling 50% more weight and could run rings around the Beetle while I was doing it. (Not to mention, carry much larger people & such.)

The numbers with reefers are all suspect. Who is to say that a mass-market boat builder installed a box optimally? Or, perhaps they just threw in cheap insulation, not what a custom builder would do. And they threw the evaporator under the sink and next to the stove, without proper ventilation? And of course keel cooling, which would seem to follow the laws of thermodynamics, is so widely panned by so many people.

I just find that box builders are debating how much insulation is enough...but somehow, that's always way more than the best portable boxes offer. And of course, you can't just "skin" the portable to add two inches more. sadly.

Warm beer and Snickers. Problem solved.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> ....you can't just "skin" the portable to add two inches more. sadly.
> 
> .....


But you can 'blanket' them very easily.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

As I pointed out on another thread. this discussion on the minor differeances in amp draw would not be possible prior to the development of dc powered refrigeration compressors.

So you can all take a chill pill. whatever 12/24 volt refrigeration unit any of you may choose you are still light years ahead of the "old" way of doing boat refrigeration.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

q; what to do about that ice box lid in the counter top?
a; put a cutting board on it!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes, and any Brit will tell you how to add a tea pot cozy to keep the tea warm. Sorry, that's just not the same as a properly insulated box with the evaporator vented outside and the insulation all in one piece, and not made of quilting.

I know, Chairman Mao once said "Black cat, white cat, all same. Catch mice." still, catching mice is not the issue here.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

deniseO30 said:


> "Work triangle" should apply to gallery layout imho


In principle I agree with you. In practice on smaller boats it's often a "work point." *grin*

Since I wedge myself into the galley I regularly end up with some interesting bruises from the safety bar in front of gimballed cookers. I am still looking for a more elegant and thermally robust padding solution than a pool noodle.



RegisteredUser said:


> What I've looked at is amp draw for both built ins and portables to keep a certain temp level, regardless of the thickness of insulation.


You can see insulation quality directly in current draw, measured in amperes (amps, A). Disregarding insulation is ignoring a primary factor.

Again, only considering current is insufficient. Duty cycle, directly affected by insulation and compressor efficiency, is important. Box size is important. Consider an Engel MT45F-U1. 1.5 cu ft box (pretty tiny) drawing 2 A at 50% duty on a warm summer day. That is 16 Ah/day/cu ft. Compare that to an Isotherm SP2051 cooling a 4 cu ft box, well insulated, drawing 2.5 A at 20% duty cycle on that same 72F day. 3 Ah/day/cu ft. Clearly a more efficient solution. Even more exciting is that the solution scales. Don't need 4 cu ft? A couple of big insulation blocks in the bottom of your box will decrease duty cycle, increase insulation, and make food easier to reach.



RegisteredUser said:


> I've not yet found solid info that the built ins are surpassing the latest portables, but that's something to check...and to post about, please.


You haven't looked very hard. Five minutes on Google provided a wealth of specified, tested, and anecdotal data. The two links above are the merest tip of the iceberg.

Keel-cooling is far from new. Frigoboat has been selling keel-cooled refrigeration for about 20 years and Isotherm for at least 15 years.

Without engaging in yet another dissertation, the thermodynamics are quite simple: liquid-to-liquid heat transfer is more efficient than liquid-to-air so any water-cooled refrigeration will be more efficient than an air-cooled one. Consider further that a conventional water-cooled system has the electrical load of the sea water circulation pump that keel-cooled systems do not have and the specified efficiency of keel coolers is apparent. Obviously there is one less noise source as well.

@deniseO30



hellosailor said:


> The numbers with reefers are all suspect. Who is to say that a mass-market boat builder installed a box optimally?


I agree that some skepticism is appropriate, particularly since some production boats don't have the option of factory refrigeration - that makes buyers dependent on whoever the brokerage selects for commissioning.



hellosailor said:


> And of course keel cooling, which would seem to follow the laws of thermodynamics, is so widely panned by so many people.


Some people can be quite vocal without understanding what they are talking about. "I heard" is not a credible footnote.



deniseO30 said:


> q; what to do about that ice box lid in the counter top?
> a; put a cutting board on it!


Sure. I have a cutting board that drops onto the gimballed cooker which gives me a level cutting service in any conditions. I also have small boards glued to the bottom of the sink covers so I can turn them over and have more prep/cutting space.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

I just went through the new fridge selection process. A buddy bought one of the new Engle coolers and I was suitably impressed with it's performance, so I started my search with the Engle portables, and then compared features and benefits with the top loading counter build in solutions. For me, the 1.5 cubic ft of the lower end portables just wasn't enough. After loading wine and beer, there's little room for anything else, let alone a weeks worth of food.

I ended up with a 4 cubic foot top loading build in using an Isotherm BD50 model with a large L-shaped evaporator and the box divided horizontally. Good insulation. Upper lever stays at 33 degrees with a cabin temp of 100 degrees (yes, I live in the tropics) and the lower half is 6 degrees cooler and the unit is on 40% and off 60%. Solar handles it no problem.

Not perfect, as it was a bit pricey, but.. it works great..


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Most of the "keel cooled" units I've seen use the keel or drain the cooler as an *addition to the fan cooled condenser.* The reason for this is; if by chance the boat were on the hard the keel cooler would not work very well and cause high condensing temps thereby causing high amp overload on the sensitive 12 volt compressors. "But I'd never run it on the dry" right.. and no one ever forgot to open the seawater valve to the engine 

I wonder if this conversation was going on in the 40s50s and 60s when people wanted cold beer and started adapting land based machines to boats?

No affiliation; 
General Marine's History
General Marine Refrigeration Corp. - About Us
_General Marine Refrigeration Corporation is a third generation family owned business in the field of marine refrigeration and air conditioning. After sailing for years as a Chief Engineer, founder William F. Anderson started General Refrigeration Company Inc., in 1925. This Swedish immigrant worked diligently to give excellent and experienced service to his customers. He instilled these honest, hard-working principles in all his employees. To better serve the growing marine community of the Delaware River, General Marine Refrigeration Corporation was established in 1947. In 1969, Viking Supply Corporation was created to provide air conditioning and refrigeration equipment suitable for marine use._

Just a note.. recreational boating HVAC is a very tiny part of the marine hvac industry. Think of the freezer size they have on ships! and factory ships where they process the fish at sea.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I didn't read the thread.... I apologize... my experience began when I was fitting out the new 36s over a 5 year period to get her to live aboard off shore capable. Changing by cold box to a fridge was one of the projects.

I also had to consider battery storage and power usage as a live aboard cruiser. I did a calc of all my loads in different conditions... offshore passage... at anchor and so on. I had a couple of solar panels... and moved up to a pair of D size batts.

I was concerned about electrical draw from a 12v fridge. And someone suggested an engine drive. Assuming the cooling worked well the advantage to me was that I could recharge the batts as I cooled down the fridge. I would typically use the engine an hr or two a day... say entering and anchoring and departing... or a dock stop to take on fuel or water... I couldn't see NOT using the engine and its alternator was the main charging source...I added a smart reg and high output alternator.

I installed a Grunnert "caribbean" with a freezer cold plate. If I ran the compressor a long time the plate would go very cold... and turn the box to a freezer. This worked for passage.... I usually took pre-coooked frozen meals and a used a separate portable cooler for drinks and so forth. As I used the meals I transfer food and mostly drinks into the box.

At anchor the minimal few hrs kept the box at frig temps and sometimes liquids next to the plate would become iced uo... slurrified orange juice or milk... No problem. The install was in 88 or 89 and I've only had a few repairs... replaced the clutch maybe 2 times... not even sure if it was twice. Works fine lasted a long time.

Weekending I often bring a block of ice and still run the fridge when we head out to sail or come into port... This has worked very well for me... batts are usually topped up... And the only fridge noise is masked by the noisy Volvo and boy do we hate the noise and smell... Most people I suppose do. But it's part of how the boat works.

If you have the power... you can with a 12v system.... I am sure they are fine... We're not at a dock... so shore power is not part of our power management regimen. If we were... we'd go 12v.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

denise-
Thermodynamics can be easy. Consider, you live with central air conditioning and perhaps set the thermostat to 74F. Funny thing, after extensive research the USN also set the thermostat on board nuclear submarines to 74F, it works pretty well to keep people in their shirtsleeves awake and comfortable. Or even comfortable asleep. 
Now take the same people and drop them in a relatively warm ocean, like off the Florida Keys. They may go hypothermic and die in 3-48 hours. AT THE SAME 74F AMBIENT TEMPERATURE.
Kinda proves what "water cooling" can do, without needing any pointy math.

One reason the original VW Beetle was so cheap and simple, the engine was air cooled. And the efficiency (not to mention the heater) was crap compared to water-cooled designs. The second law of thermodynamics is it? Is inescapable, just like the rest of them. Little bits like plumbing leaks, return on cost, and critical parts in unreachable places, that's quite another story.(G)


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

why I advise clients to leave the ac "on" when they leave the house. yep 74 is a a sweet spot temp for most humans. 

but let's not confuse water as a medium to heat transfer in heat ex-changers with "swamp cooling" evaporation coolers used most often in desert conditions (hot dry heat)


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

deniseO30 said:


> Most of the "keel cooled" units I've seen use the keel or drain the cooler as an *addition to the fan cooled condenser.* The reason for this is; if by chance the boat were on the hard the keel cooler would not work very well and cause high condensing temps thereby causing high amp overload on the sensitive 12 volt compressors.


Your point is well taken regarding conventional keel coolers. The Isotherm SP series use modified seacocks as the refrigerant to sea water heat exchanger. Isotherm specifically addresses the use of their products on the hard. As long as you don't put the plugs in the sink drains the drains act as chimneys. You suffer the inefficiencies of air cooling of course but on the hard where shore power is generally available at least part time that is less of a factor.



SanderO said:


> And someone suggested an engine drive. Assuming the cooling worked well the advantage to me was that I could recharge the batts as I cooled down the fridge.


I think the day of engine drive refrigeration, indeed any holding plate refrigeration, is past. 12 VDC is a better solution. As with anchors, the availability of something better does not make the previous solutions less good. I personally would not replace a working holding plate system but I wouldn't install a new one either.

A 12 VDC refrigeration system with an L- or J-shaped evaporator takes up less space in the cold box, keeps the temperature in the box more stable (good for the food), does not require manual intervention to maintain temperature, and can be pretty energy efficient. A 12 VDC system also allows using battery power originally derived from a number of sources: main engine alternator(s), generator, shore power, solar, wind, even water. That provides a great deal of energy redundancy. While if the battery bank fails entirely there is a problem, that problem is a whole lot bigger than just refrigeration. Battery banks are pretty reliable and if a single cell fails you can take that battery or pair out of the bank and soldier on.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> ....
> One reason the original VW Beetle was so cheap and simple, the engine was air cooled. And the efficiency (not to mention the heater) was crap compared to water-cooled designs. The second law of thermodynamics is it? Is inescapable, just like the rest of them. Little bits like plumbing leaks, return on cost, and critical parts in unreachable places, that's quite another story.(G)


I agree with everything you wrote here, but .... the failure points double when water cooling is involved. Air cooling is definitely less efficient, but it's the KISS principle. Use air cooling, ... Go to a larger compressor/evaporator and the increased current draw and you have a bulletproof refrigeration system. Just add another solar panel!!

My point is, if any of these components fail, it's not going to sink the boat!!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

SVAuspicious said:


> I think the day of engine drive refrigeration, indeed any holding plate refrigeration, is past. 12 VDC is a better solution. As with anchors, the availability of something better does not make the previous solutions less good. I personally would not replace a working holding plate system but I wouldn't install a new one either.
> 
> A 12 VDC refrigeration system with an L- or J-shaped evaporator takes up less space in the cold box, keeps the temperature in the box more stable (good for the food), does not require manual intervention to maintain temperature, and can be pretty energy efficient. A 12 VDC system also allows using battery power originally derived from a number of sources: main engine alternator(s), generator, shore power, solar, wind, even water. That provides a great deal of energy redundancy. While if the battery bank fails entirely there is a problem, that problem is a whole lot bigger than just refrigeration. Battery banks are pretty reliable and if a single cell fails you can take that battery or pair out of the bank and soldier on.


At the time I set up a refer... in 1989 12v refers were not what they are today I believe. I am not recommending MY solution to others... and concluded that if we were to replace we would go with a 12v system. This solution worked me and it continues to be acceptable for the way we sail... and as it remains in good working order... I see no reason to rip it out and install a new one. But like so many of the boat's systems... electricity is mission critical..


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Bill-Rangatira said:


> I have pretty much decided I need to do a remodel / redesign of my Galley. One of my primary concerns is the icebox is under the starboard quarterberth and thinkin if i give up some storage under the galley i could fit it in the starboard galley and get more depth and room for better insulation maybe eventually goin to a holdover plar or some other type of refer system. With the change from the old stove with oven to a gimballed wallas 1000 with no oven i have alot of space below there perhaps if i moved some storage to there i would be able to fit the icebox in the counter top.
> DISCOVERY 32 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
> any constructive ideas and suggestions would be helpfull.
> I am not afraid to build new cabinets from scratch
> ...


A galley redesign could be fairly simple. Adding refrigeration gets complicated. Plus refrigeration could change the way you sail when charging becomes a bigger part of the equation. Going to refrigeration, the charging - battery storage, etc. is a big project. A portable might be a good way to supplement your refrigeration and get a taste of how much energy you'll need with the way you sail.

Looking at the line drawing of your boat, it's hard to see where you could move the ice box from the starboard quarter berth (if I have this right), and fit everything in the port side galley.

I'd be more inclined to figure out a way to keep the icebox - starboard - and improve it.

However, I don't see much a way to do that except eliminate the quarter berth. You probably have thought of that?


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## Pendragon35 (Jun 26, 2014)

As to cooking being a "chick thing"...I (the male half of the crew) do almost all the cooking on Pendragon. It's just how we split up the duties. In theory we have room for an oven (Alberg 35) but the space is occupied by cabinets and it would take a lot of rebuilding not to mention insulating and buying an oven. So I stick to my two burner Origo which can produce quite amazing meals. (Not in the same class with @T37Chef but still good!).

A lot depends also on what sort of cruising you do. Ours tends to be sailing to some cove, anchoring, making a little dinner; not a lot of cooking underway, and a lot of making things that are essentially boiling water and heating something. Would we bake in an oven? not sure. We don't have propane and I have a feeling an alcohol heated oven would take forever. Still the idea of cookies would be wonderful


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Probably 20 years ago, not long after the USSR was dissolved, there was a news story about some hunters (Siberia?) in the wilderness who were being treated for radiation burns. They had snuggled up next to a nice warm aeronautical beacon during a storm. It turns out the USSR supposedly had 2000+ of these, located in remote places for aircraft navigation, each being a strontium thermal pile. Like we use on some spacecraft. And out of the 2000, apparently ~1800 had gotten lost, forgotten, mislaid, or just "someone else's problem" after the split up.
So for the really enterprising sailor, while Reddy Kilowatt still hasn't delivered, there's always a chance to go looking for surplus in the old USSR. Surely there's a way to get refrigeration oit of a strontium pile. (Just stack the old lead acid batteries around it.)


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

TomMaine said:


> A galley redesign could be fairly simple. ........
> 
> However, I don't see much a way to do that except eliminate the quarter berth. You probably have thought of that?


An Engel in a drawer oriented to slide aft and under the cockpit might work there.. You would lose the quarterberth but could retain a good sized seat; or sacrifice the berth, mount the engel (again in a drawer) athwartship and have a ton of extra counterspace/standup nav table and possibly more cabinetry and storage.

Accessing the newly created 'cockpit storage' might be trickier...


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

TomMaine said:


> A galley redesign could be fairly simple. Adding refrigeration gets complicated. Plus refrigeration could change the way you sail when charging becomes a bigger part of the equation. Going to refrigeration, the charging - battery storage, etc. is a big project. A portable might be a good way to supplement your refrigeration and get a taste of how much energy you'll need with the way you sail.
> 
> Looking at the line drawing of your boat, it's hard to see where you could move the ice box from the starboard quarter berth (if I have this right), and fit everything in the port side galley.
> 
> ...


i use the quarter berth alot on both sides the icebox is starboard as is the galley i can have 1/2 of the countertop still useable and the lid of the icebox will be flush as well i have about 24" of depth under the counter to put it in but want to get 4" of insulation to get better R factor with out going to the aerogel panels 
the refridgeration would be a holdover plate running off the engine directly so no power involved just need to runn the engine twice a day for 15 mins each which is normal for setting and picking up anchor


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Bill-Rangatira said:


> the refridgeration would be a holdover plate running off the engine directly so no power involved just need to runn the engine twice a day for 15 mins each which is normal for setting and picking up anchor


My experience is that keeping holding plate refrigeration at appropriate temperatures takes much more than 30 min / day especially in warmer climes.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Bill-Rangatira said:


> i use the quarter berth alot on both sides the icebox is starboard as is the galley i can have 1/2 of the countertop still useable and the lid of the icebox will be flush as well i have about 24" of depth under the counter to put it in but want to get 4" of insulation to get better R factor with out going to the aerogel panels
> the refridgeration would be a holdover plate running off the engine directly so no power involved just need to runn the engine twice a day for 15 mins each which is normal for setting and picking up anchor


I guess I don't quite follow how your boat is set up (the drawing on Saildata is fuzzy). Do you have any pics? I enjoy redesign projects in boats. I'm a design builder (housing). Small space design - like boats - is the most interesting.

We all sail differently. For me, I often sail on and off anchor and like to be able to stay for a few days. We have plentiful ice available in my cruising grounds and we're coastal sailors that are gone short term.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

TomMaine said:


> I guess I don't quite follow how your boat is set up (the drawing on Saildata is fuzzy). Do you have any pics? I enjoy redesign projects in boats. I'm a design builder (housing). Small space design - like boats - is the most interesting.
> 
> We all sail differently. For me, I often sail on and off anchor and like to be able to stay for a few days. We have plentiful ice available in my cruising grounds and we're coastal sailors that are gone short term.




















I am not attached to having a refrigerator but wanted the holdover plate for when ice is in short supply
my cruising area is the salish sea (PNW) so summer is not hot


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Where is your fridge now? With that linear galley (not at all like the drawings on sailboatdata - but then some of these hulls were sold as kits) an engle in a drawer between sink and galley stove should work a treat.

Alternatively maybe raise the stbd quarter a few inches and maybe a decent icebox/fridge could be fitted under the forward section.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

You have killer counter space.
First thought is is to get rid of the cushion on starboard berth, strap down a portable at the front and use the rear of that berth for 'whatever' storage...and try that temporarily.
Heck, 2 portables would fit there.

Maybe take it in steps, use it for a while and learn what is comfortable.

Get small, light stuff racked/bungeed, etc up high. You def have space to work with.


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## JimPendoley (Jan 17, 2005)

Regarding the "Chick thing", five years after serving my girlfriend panko and cranberry encrusted salmon aboard my Pearson Vanguard in the middle of January in New England we are still happily sailing far and wide together. Your mileage may vary, but she told me I had her when I pulled the dinner out of the oven


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## JimPendoley (Jan 17, 2005)

One other thought, yours is a dinette layout, nearly identical to what I have on my Vanguard. If you moved the sink aft just forward of the oven and put a built in place reefer where the sink used to be, you'd have a pretty sweet layout. I like mine a lot. Its great at anchor and not bad at sea. You keep the starboard quarterberth and the sink is closer to the oven which generates the dirty dishes. I think your stove oven is alcohol based-over the long term you'd probably be glad you switched to propane.


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## Vanguard65 (Mar 20, 2018)

Hello Jim,
I realize this is a post about interior layouts but I noticed you discussed your Pearson Vanguard. I also own a Vanguard (1965) dinette model which I recently bought in Harpswell, Me. I sail her out of South Portland. If there was any way we could just chat about the boats that would be great. In particular I'm trying to figure out the best way to mount a reefing system on the original wooden boom. She's all set up with slab reefing on the main but the hardware was never installed on the spars. Thanks for your time - Ben Welch


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

On the subject of galley upgrades...

1. Has anyone used an integral corian sink... obviously would have to be a bar sink size... or similar and fit the available location???

2. Has anyone added a thin corian top over an existing counter where the sink is located and installed new or reinstalled old sink and new fittings? In my case this would be a slightly raised section at the far corner of the sink counter. Replacing the whole top is not an option or sensible. I don't find the small step an issue.

3. Has anyone used a pre cut and drilled heavy gauge piece of stainless steel to lay over a portion of the counter?

One of the huge problems I have is working on the faucets access to which is a very narrow space and virtually impossible to right the fitting nut or the plumbing connections. Some faucets come with long copper tube tailed which are below the typical sink and can be accessed for tightening... but the faucet itself is PITA.

There is not much standing water on the counter... so water tight is not much of an issue... but mechanically secure is.

If I replace with something over top... with a small step... everything can mounted and then the entire "assembly" screwed up from below...

Comments and suggestions invited.


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