# A dynamic PHRF system?



## Tim Labute (Jul 25, 2016)

Alright, this is going to be out there but hopefully someone has something...

My club does PHRF races weekly with several Regatta's on the weekends. The current Race committee chair is stepping down and he has always done the PHRF system. It works well enough. He sets your PHRF based on experience and it stays the same all year unless he feels the need to change it.

An example - my boat is PHRF 162 and he has me set at 180 because it's my first year racing.
His boat is a 108, and he is set as a 108 because he is capable of sailing her to potential.

We do this to keep it competitive for new folks and attract more racers.

My question: is there a dynamic system that will adapt our PHRF based on our finishes (mathematically)? So as we get further and further into the year, the finishes get closer and closer...

Tim


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

You could set one up, but it is not PHRF. PHRF by definition rates the boat NOT the crew. To my knowledge there is no current system that tries to rate the skill of the crew to equalize finishes, since the entire point of racing is to figure out who the best sailor is. 

But what you are doing, and suggesting has been suggested for exactly the reason you mention, it makes it easier for new sailors to feel part of the action. 

Statistically it is easy to figure out the distance behind in seconds/mile a boat finishes from the leader, then add that to their handicap for the next race. If you do this over every race, or series it will over time regress to the mean. So you should (but won't) get statistical ties.


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## CLucas (Feb 10, 2007)

Stumble said:


> You could set one up, but it is not PHRF. PHRF by definition rates the boat NOT the crew. To my knowledge there is no current system that tries to rate the skill of the crew to equalize finishes, since the entire point of racing is to figure out who the best sailor is.
> 
> But what you are doing, and suggesting has been suggested for exactly the reason you mention, it makes it easier for new sailors to feel part of the action.
> 
> Statistically it is easy to figure out the distance behind in seconds/mile a boat finishes from the leader, then add that to their handicap for the next race. If you do this over every race, or series it will over time regress to the mean. So you should (but won't) get statistical ties.


It's an interesting idea to give people time for their 1st year racing and I can see how it might help get others out on the course. Is the added time a percentage of the base rating (10%)? Feels like after the first year, the 'new racer handicap' should go away. Our Club runs a separate series of races that use a pursuit start based on each boat's PHRF. In theory, all boats should finish in about the same time (discounting any variation in wind, current, sailing ability and a lot of other variables, so no -- it never happens). It's a fun way for race for those who are new to racing and eliminates the drama at the start which intimidates a lot of new racers.

It was suggested at our club one time (and quickly voted down) that winning a race should lower your rating to allow others to be more competitive next time. What?!? Talk about a disincentive. People who race well do so because they work at it -- they practice, they study, focus and have great crew. Penalizing them for their success is ridiculous. Observing others who sail better than you do is a great way to learn -- where on the line did they start? What line did they take to the windward mark? What about mark roundings? What was their course on the downwind leg?

Never been an advocate of the "everybody gets a medal" mindset, but I support ideas to get more people out on the water. I know of another club that runs practice start events to give new racers an opportunity to practice starts with other boats -- they set up a line and run a series of start sequences so racers can practice, fine-tune and get a feel of what it's like to charge the line with other boats all trying to occupy the same spot on the water. Other clubs do 'adopt a cruiser' events, where they put experienced racers as crew on boats with those new to racing. With the right people it can be a blast.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you have a whole season's worth of results, I suppose you could back-calculate the various ratings to the same average corrected time.. and maybe try those ratings for the next season.

But I think you'll find that, while some will appreciate the shift, more will find it unfair and unnecessary.

It would be an interesting experiment. You could do the math and run the results in the background for a while to see how it would have worked out, and how much it changed the traditional results.


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## Tim Labute (Jul 25, 2016)

CLucas said:


> It was suggested at our club one time (and quickly voted down) that winning a race should lower your rating to allow others to be more competitive next time. What?!? Talk about a disincentive. People who race well do so because they work at it -- they practice, they study, focus and have great crew. Penalizing them for their success is ridiculous.


Agree completely... but I should be more clear, I do not believe we penalize the good racers - we don't. The really good people get their boats actual PHRF and never anything beyond. The newer folks get an advantage to help them keep up with the really good people. From our clubs experience, the best guys still win, they just have us right behind them most of the time.

To add, as a "new guy" I learn a whole lot more actually being able to sail nearer to the lead boats than I would if they were miles ahead. Truth be told, I wouldn't race if it were anything otherwise, and I've brought three new boats to the club this year so there are a lot of benefits to the way we do it - IMHO


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

You're new, you are supposed to be inexperienced and likely to come in last. And, to be excited at the prospect of learning and moving up in the ranks as you accomplish more.

No need to fiddle the numbers, you'll either advance in your skills and position, or not. Along the way you'll also find out PHRF isn't fair in many ways. If you want "fair", you want one design racing, with rigid fleet rules. And the new guys will still start out by coming in last.

Then one day you come in NEXT TO LAST. And you still celebrate, because it means you moved up one! 

In my first year of club one-design racing, I think we came in something like 7th or 8th in the average ten boat race, with an ever-changing crew. But, we came in 4th in the season overall ratings. Simply because we SHOWED UP and raced every time, and that counts too.

Worry about sailing faster, and let someone else worry about the numbers.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Tim Labute said:


> The newer folks get an advantage to help them keep up with the really good people.


Another way to accomplish the same end is to use a pursuit style start. The slower folks start first and the faster folks start later, catching up and usually passing. It makes the middle of the race more interesting and the finishes closer. Then you use PHRF (or whatever rating system you choose) for the final results.



hellosailor said:


> Worry about sailing faster, and let someone else worry about the numbers.


I tend to agree. Sail with other people. Read. Take lessons. Practice. Keep trying.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

You would have to pursuit start EVERY race with the adjusted handicaps so the fast boats would take longer to catch up, never would you be "closer following" as suggested. Not changing speed just the math. Its an interesting Idea and individual clubs can implement at will, surely no mass following. We do a couple of pursuit starts in our season and the fast Boats still pass you we're just adding the handicap not the behind time as you suggest.


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## CLucas (Feb 10, 2007)

Tim Labute said:


> Agree completely... but I should be more clear, I do not believe we penalize the good racers - we don't. The really good people get their boats actual PHRF and never anything beyond. The newer folks get an advantage to help them keep up with the really good people. From our clubs experience, the best guys still win, they just have us right behind them most of the time.
> 
> To add, as a "new guy" I learn a whole lot more actually being able to sail nearer to the lead boats than I would if they were miles ahead. Truth be told, I wouldn't race if it were anything otherwise, and I've brought three new boats to the club this year so there are a lot of benefits to the way we do it - IMHO


Here's what doesn't make sense... your time is corrected after the race. So your adjusted PHRF will only be reflected in a spreadsheet after the race -- you don't have any greater proximity to lead boats during the race itself. You're all starting at the same time -- slower boats will get dropped en route to the first mark, period. PHRF attempts to equalize things by taking a boat's sailing characteristics and equipment into account, but doesn't change the elapsed time a boat spent on the course. Are you doing pursuit starts?

Pursuits give you the thrill of being chased and give you a jump on other boats as well as proximity to seeing what faster boats are doing while they are passing you . All boats have clear air at the start, but not the excitement of charging the line with other boats in your class. A very general tip... focus on what you're doing, not the other guy (that's what they're doing, believe me). Your trim, your telltales, your course, upcoming shifts, puffs, headers, lifts...

How was the adjustment made by your RC Chair calculated? A fixed % of your base rating (after allowances for roller furling, prop-type, etc)? For how long? First year only?

PHRF already has enough flaws...


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

From someone who is in the 'conteplative' stage of joining PHRF racing, it would be most important to me that the fleet regularly voices that we will be accepted and encouraged, regardless of our horrible finishes. I would rather have our position on the water, and the final results reflect our actual PHRF placing. Then next year I will get a new suit of sweet carbon sails, and kick their butts!


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Barquito said:


> From someone who is in the 'conteplative' stage of joining PHRF racing, it would be most important to me that the fleet regularly voices that we will be accepted and encouraged, regardless of our horrible finishes. I would rather have our position on the water, and the final results reflect our actual PHRF placing. Then next year I will get a new suit of sweet carbon sails, and kick their butts!


7

Personally I would not want to have a special favorable phrf rating for around the bouy racing. When we started racing we were near the back of the pack for the first season. We worked hard and practiced every week and by year two we had moved up several places. By year three we were in the top tier of the fleet and won our first race but we had absolutely great sailors in our club (Olympic qualifiers) and that turned out to be our only win although we were near the top of the fleet for several years. One year we chose to not practice as often and we ended up back in the middle. I think you just kid yourself by changing the rules, sort of like everyone gets a metal just for showing up or no one fails in school anymore, just my opinion. Pursuit racing is always fun, never have done it on a triangle course but it's usually a good time by all.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

We used a modified PHRF club rating for several seasons at our club in an effort to get more people out. It worked pretty well for that, though having our rating reduced by about 20 sec/mile made any error on our part absolutely fatal. We still had fun finishing first and working on sailing as fast as we could. Newer boats and more interest after several seasons made the "club adjustments" unneeded, and they were dropped. We now often have more than a dozen boats out on Wednesday nights, racing in spinnaker and non-spinnaker divisions. Everyone seems to have a good time. Every club is going through a different situation and needs to do what works for them. 

P.S. Pursuit starts can be fun, but can be tricky if the RC needs to be on hand to make sure nobody jumps their gun by starting a second or two (or 30) early.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

As a way to get everyone more 'involved and in the thick of it', I think the Pursuit start is the simplest way to go. It gives the slow boats clear air for awhile, opportunity to attempt to cover an overtaking competitor and the chance to judge and assess close port/starboard crossings.(some things you virtually never get as the 'slow' boat unless you're being lapped )

Playing with ratings can go along with that, but for a novice to steadily improve his/her/their standing through practice and perseverance with standard ratings seems to me the better way to go.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Barquito said:


> From someone who is in the 'conteplative' stage of joining PHRF racing, it would be most important to me that the fleet regularly voices that we will be accepted and encouraged, regardless of our horrible finishes. I would rather have our position on the water, and the final results reflect our actual PHRF placing. Then next year I will get a new suit of sweet carbon sails, and kick their butts!


That's the idea, this year Im following everyone, but I have a list of what needs to be done to remedy that. I can also tell in my placement each week when the bottom needs to be cleaned and usually that's more often than it gets done. If I could get the time back on every score that Im lagging the fleet then I (might) be less likely to work on the Boat and that doesn't help the process or the industry either. It would be nice to win sometime though. Maybe $5 or 6,000 later??


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## SOSOS (Feb 19, 2017)

I've done some racing in a dynamic PHRF system and it works pretty well. It's a low key group. For each race the winner had 9 subtracted from rating, 2nd place 6, 3rd place 3, 4th place doesn't change, and everyone after 4th gets 2 added. Benefits are that it keeps everyone in the thick of things. If you don't have the latest and greatest sails, you can still compete even if you can't sail to your rating. And perhaps most importantly you get a bonus for coming out even if you keep losing (+2 every time you race) so there's a reason to keep coming out. Probably not good for a hard core racing crowd, but it the goal is to get people out and engaged it seems to work well. And in the end, the best sailors probably still end up winning, just not by as much as they otherwise would.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

SOSOS said:


> If you don't have the latest and greatest sails, you can still compete even if you can't sail to your rating.


I mostly agree with you. My advise to people who ask how to be more competitive and what they should buy is always "lessons." In a qualified, competent, and competitive class you can talk me into sails, but for most club racing lessons are the best way to move up.


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## Tgradyv7m (May 17, 2015)

My one comment: Golf


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

SOSOS said:


> I've done some racing in a dynamic PHRF system and it works pretty well. It's a low key group. For each race the winner had 9 subtracted from rating, 2nd place 6, 3rd place 3, 4th place doesn't change, and everyone after 4th gets 2 added. Benefits are that it keeps everyone in the thick of things. If you don't have the latest and greatest sails, you can still compete even if you can't sail to your rating. And perhaps most importantly you get a bonus for coming out even if you keep losing (+2 every time you race) so there's a reason to keep coming out. Probably not good for a hard core racing crowd, but it the goal is to get people out and engaged it seems to work well. And in the end, the best sailors probably still end up winning, just not by as much as they otherwise would.


Welcome aboard SOS let us know how you do when the season starts back up. We have High Hopes on the "Special K"II lots of new equipment this year.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

One Design is pretty straight forward...what can YOU do with?
Small is good for this.

The best way to get more people involved is to keep the entry cost low.....the boat, costly sails, etc. When you get away from that...low volume...

To give me 'positive points' because I was not as good and skilled as another skipper/crew that beat me sounds absurd. 
It's real competition...or its not.
Some people like to play in that arena, and some not....the truth.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

PHRF can work well, but we have found that local sailing politics overpowers it, around here, for decades. 
To have better competition with less hassle, a local club was formed here in 1978 around the idea of one design (OD) racing. At that time three local fleets came together to incorporate the club. These were all 20 to 22 foot ballasted boats. It was really excellent racing. Since it was mostly all families, the social factor was huge too.
The club kept attracting new members who inevitably sailed larger boats with not enough to put 5 on a starting line.
Soon they added Level Fleets, where a group of boats was assigned by general performance potential... using known PHRF numbers and local knowledge. This flourished and that club is still going strong with about a hundred boats. 
Given that on short course racing any tiny mistake you make at a mark will undo a considerable difference in rating numbers (!), this has provided fair racing. At least as "fair" as most all handicap racing ever is. 
Best of all, you sail your boat as well as you can, and all the finishes are "WYSIWYG". When you get the horn you know exactly what you finish position is.

Regards,
Loren


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

My club experimented with a crew handicapping system on top of the standard PHRF. I can't remember exactly where I found the suggestion (I didn't make this up), but I'm glad I wrote down how I did it because I would have never remembered:


The actual race completion time is converted to seconds per mile
The boat that finishes closest to 40% of the way down the pack is set as the scratch boat (if there were 10 boats, it would be the boat finishing 4th, for example)
The deviation from the scratch boat is calculated for all other boats in seconds per mile
The deviation for each boat is divided by 10 and the resulting number is the "Golf Handicap"
The average of the last three Golf Handicaps (aka "trailing average") is used as the boat's PHRF and a new Golf Handicap is created for the next race

It turned out that this didn't substantively change the positions. I also ran it with 20% of the deviation, and then it just made things wacky. In the end, it was all an experiment (the official scoring was still straight-up PHRF) and it was decided that it wasn't worth pursuing for another year. I didn't protest its demise too hard because it required me to build and run a database, which is the sort of thing that I'm often trying to mentally sail away from.

The SQL was horrible.


```
SELECT DISTINCT RaceID AS tempRaceID
INTO   #raceList
FROM   results
ORDER BY tempRaceID

DECLARE @ActiveRace int

--Iterate over races
WHILE (Select Count(*) From #raceList) > 0
BEGIN
	--Get first raceID
    Select Top 1 @ActiveRace = tempRaceID From #raceList
		
		--Put Rank and Count into #phrfTemp Table	
		SELECT
			raceID,
			boatName,
			RANK() OVER (ORDER BY phrf ASC) AS PRank,
			(SELECT COUNT (*) FROM results WHERE results.raceID = @ActiveRace) AS PCount
		INTO #phrfTemp
		FROM dbo.results INNER JOIN
			#raceList ON dbo.results.raceID = #raceList.tempRaceID
		WHERE dbo.results.raceID = @ActiveRace AND dbo.results.phrf IS NOT NULL

		--Put phrfRank into results
		UPDATE dbo.results
		SET dbo.results.phrfRank = #phrfTemp.PRank
		FROM #phrfTemp
		INNER JOIN dbo.results
			ON #phrfTemp.raceID = dbo.results.raceID
			AND #phrfTemp.boatName = dbo.results.boatName

		--Calculate percentile
		UPDATE dbo.results
	    SET dbo.results.percentile = (cast(#phrfTemp.PCount as float)-cast(#phrfTemp.PRank as float))/cast(#phrfTemp.PCount as float)
		FROM #phrfTemp
		INNER JOIN dbo.results
			ON #phrfTemp.raceID = dbo.results.raceID
			AND #phrfTemp.boatName = dbo.results.boatName

		--Build #golfTemp table
		SELECT
			dbo.results.raceID,
			dbo.results.boatName,
			dbo.results.actualTime,
			dbo.race.raceLength,
			dbo.boat.basePHRF,
			(SELECT TOP (1) dbo.results.actualTime FROM dbo.results WHERE percentile BETWEEN 0.5 AND 0.59999999999 AND dbo.results.raceID = @ActiveRace) AS scratchboat
		INTO #golfTemp
		FROM dbo.results 
			INNER JOIN dbo.race ON dbo.results.raceID = dbo.race.raceID
			INNER JOIN dbo.boat ON dbo.results.boatName = dbo.boat.boatName
		WHERE dbo.results.raceID = @ActiveRace AND dbo.results.phrf IS NOT NULL

		--Run base golfPHRF		
		UPDATE dbo.results
	    SET dbo.results.golfHandicap = ((cast(#golfTemp.actualTime as float) / cast(#golfTemp.raceLength as float)) - 
								(cast(#golfTemp.scratchboat as float) / cast(#golfTemp.raceLength as float))) 
								* 0.1 
								+ cast(#golfTemp.basePHRF as float)
		FROM #golfTemp 
		INNER JOIN dbo.results
			ON #golfTemp.raceID = dbo.results.raceID
			AND #golfTemp.boatName = dbo.results.boatName

		--Build #last3 to store recent data for averaging
		SELECT * 
		INTO #last3
		FROM dbo.results
		WHERE raceID IN
			(SELECT DISTINCT TOP(3) dbo.results.raceID 
			FROM dbo.results 
			WHERE raceID <= @ActiveRace
			ORDER BY dbo.results.raceID DESC)
		ORDER BY dbo.results.raceID DESC

		--Redo golfPHRF with trailing average
		UPDATE dbo.results
	    SET dbo.results.golfHandicap = (SELECT AVG(#last3.golfHandicap) FROM #last3 WHERE #last3.boatName = dbo.results.boatName)
		FROM #last3
		INNER JOIN dbo.results
			ON #last3.raceID = dbo.results.raceID
			AND #last3.boatName = dbo.results.boatName
		WHERE dbo.results.raceID = @ActiveRace

		--Calculate golf handicapped time
		UPDATE dbo.results
	    SET dbo.results.golf = dbo.results.actualTime - (dbo.results.golfHandicap * dbo.race.raceLength)
		FROM dbo.results
		INNER JOIN dbo.race 
			ON dbo.results.raceID = dbo.race.raceID
		WHERE dbo.results.raceID = @ActiveRace


		--Put Rank #golfRank Temp Table
		SELECT
			raceID,
			boatName,
			RANK() OVER (ORDER BY golf ASC) AS GRank
		INTO #golfRank
		FROM dbo.results
		WHERE dbo.results.raceID = @ActiveRace AND dbo.results.golf IS NOT NULL

		--Update golfRank field
		UPDATE dbo.results
	    SET dbo.results.golfRank = #golfRank.GRank
		FROM #golfRank
		INNER JOIN dbo.results
			ON #golfRank.raceID = dbo.results.raceID
			AND #golfRank.boatName = dbo.results.boatName
		WHERE dbo.results.raceID = @ActiveRace



		DROP TABLE #phrfTemp
		DROP TABLE #last3
		DROP TABLE #golfTemp
		DROP TABLE #golfRank

    Delete #raceList Where tempRaceID = @ActiveRace

END

DROP TABLE #raceList
```


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

chip said:


> The SQL was horrible.


I bow to the new king of technical posts.


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