# One Dead, one wounded in VZ piracy attack



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

This was just posted on another board...very tragic.
I know this will generate another piracy/guns argument...but let's get further details before jumping to any conclusions. 
The VZ coast remains dangerous and prudent cruisers would be wise to avoid it for the time being. 
************************

Last night an American, the owner/captain of the vessel Chill, Ken Peters, was killed by pirates at Isla Borracha near Puerto La Cruz. Ken and his wife Cathy were anchored with another boat I'Lean, Steve & Gloria Davis aboard. They were departing Puerto La Cruz from Bahía Redonda Marina headed west and stopped for the night to clean the boat bottoms and prepare for the voyage west. About 5:30 PM they were approached by 3 men in a piñero with pistols. Details are not clear this morning, but it seems the 2 American men resisted and in the ensuing gunfight Ken was killed and Steve injured but not badly. The Guarda Costa was called and responded and the 2 sailboats returned to PLC last night late. The widow, Cathy Peters, sailed her boat back with the help of a friend and guarded by a soldier. Steve sailed his boat back and the police recovered the body of Ken from I'Lean. It is expected that the body will be cremated here in Puerto La Cruz. It is especially horrible as Cathy just returned from the US having just buried her mother. The whole community here is in a state of shock and grief. A large scale exodus of cruisers is probable. We plan to depart in a few days, as was our plan previously.

To those who advocate armed resistance. maybe you need to rethink that. It is difficult to contemplate clearly and understand these things but violence is not the answer to violence. For sure it did not seem to be the answer in this case. 
SSCA Discussion Board :: View topic - Death of an American cruiser in Venezuela


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I am very sorry to hear that, RIP Captain.

To the family my sincere condolences...If I were American..I'd ban Venezuela once and for all as a cruisng destination..this is not the first case AND not the last..just boycot crusing in the place.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

This is very sad and, as Cam has already stated, could turn into another emotionally laden (but factually bare thread).

But one glaring error needs to be corrected, both in the thread and in the title - this was a robbery which was perpetrated on persons on a boat, not piracy.

According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary:


> Main Entry: pi·ra·cy
> Pronunciation: \ˈpī-rə-sē\
> Function: noun
> Inflected Form(s): plural pi·ra·cies
> ...





> Main Entry: rob·bery
> Pronunciation: \ˈrä-b(ə-)rē\
> Function: noun
> Inflected Form(s): plural rob·ber·ies
> ...


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> This was just posted on another board...very tragic.
> I know this will generate another piracy/guns argument...but let's get further details before jumping to any conclusions.
> The VZ coast remains dangerous and prudent cruisers would be wise to avoid it for the time being.
> ************************
> ...


I don't get it Cam.

When I read it (maybe it was edited) it says this.

Last night an American, the owner/captain of the vessel Chill, Ken Peters, was killed by pirates at Isla Borracha near Puerto La Cruz. Ken and his wife Cathy were anchored with another boat I'Lean, Steve & Gloria Davis aboard. They were departing Puerto La Cruz from Bahía Redonda Marina headed west and stopped for the night to clean the boat bottoms and prepare for the voyage west.* About 5:30 PM they were approached by 3 men in a piñero who asked for water. When Ken came back up from below with water, they shot him with pistols. Details are not clear this morning, but the other boat then shot at the pirates with a shotgun and killed one and injured another of the bandits. Ken was killed in the exchange and Steve injured but not badly. *The Guarda Costa was called and responded and the 2 sailboats returned to PLC last night late. The widow, Cathy Peters, sailed her boat back with the help of a friend and guarded by a soldier. Steve sailed his boat back and the police recovered the body of Ken from I'Lean. It is expected that the body will be cremated here in Puerto La Cruz. It is especially horrible as Cathy just returned from the US having just buried her mother. The whole community here is in a state of shock and grief. A large scale exodus of cruisers is probable. We plan to depart in a few days, as was our plan previously.

To those who advocate armed resistance. maybe you need to rethink that. It is difficult to contemplate clearly and understand these things but violence is not the answer to violence. For sure it did not seem to be the answer in this case. How could any ordinary peaceful cruiser be prepared for such an eventuality? This is clearly a country in the process of self-destruction!
_________________

This return "violence" may have saved other cruisers lives.

I am sure more details will follow.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*I don't get it Cam.*

Sorry...don't understand what you don't get? I just gave the first report from a guy who was not at the scene. I am only suggesting we wait for confirmation and further details until we start picking it apart.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> *I don't get it Cam.*
> 
> Sorry...don't understand what you don't get? I just gave the first report from a guy who was not at the scene. I am only suggesting we wait for confirmation and further details until we start picking it apart.


Agreed.

I only noted that there seems to be an edit on the post because what you and I found on the other site differ in info.

I look forward to more/better info.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Ahhhh...gotcha. Now I understand. Actually the post says it was edited today at 12:38pm by the author. Must have gotten some further detail between my post and yours. Thanks....


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Ahhhh...gotcha. Now I understand. Actually the post says it was edited today at 12:38pm by the author. Must have gotten some further detail between my post and yours. Thanks....


Last edited by Doug-Salacia on Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

is what I see.

I have no idea what time it is........

Will wait with you for more info.

PS. My apology for not offering my condolences for all involved in this tragic event.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

camaraderie said:


> To those who advocate armed resistance. maybe you need to rethink that. It is difficult to contemplate clearly and understand these things but violence is not the answer to violence. For sure it did not seem to be the answer in this case.
> SSCA Discussion Board :: View topic - Death of an American cruiser in Venezuela


 Damn, we all do it however we are again playing the Monday morning quarterback. I do not think it is safe nor fair to second guess what was going through the mens minds during the confrontation. "Resist" may mean something different to you compared to me or compared to the survivors. Unless you were there ( I do not mean you in specific Cam) and participated it is not fair to speculate with any kind of authority. It is a very fluid and dynamic situation. I am all for having "tools" available if in my experience, training and if the situation calls for the OPTION to use them or not. Having options is a good thing. Let us not limit ourselves or anyone else by our lack of training and resources.

my condolences for all involved in this tragic occurrence,

Jerry


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

They will think twice about robbing a boat again.
One of them is dead, another has been hit with a shotgun, and the third will remember what happened.

From what I read, the comments about armed resistance are pious.

I would be glad the shotgun was around when the shooting started. It really is good at curtailing a murder plan, particularly at close range.

I sure hope there is one around if that happens to me, or those close to me.


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## sab30 (Oct 11, 2006)

or do the next pirates bring more guns more people more ammo because who wouldnt bring a gun to a gun fight..do the next pirates start shooting first...

I cant begin to imagine what these people went through a those moments of sheer terror...

I struggle with this ethically....protection for your family or simply elevating the fight..

The stat remains those countries with the most guns in society (legit or not) have the highest rates of gun death..wouldnt that same stat apply in the sailing community..

My sympathies to these people who were simply out enjoying their dream...


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

sab30 said:


> or do the next pirates bring more guns more people more ammo because who wouldnt bring a gun to a gun fight..do the next pirates start shooting first...
> 
> I cant begin to imagine what these people went through a those moments of sheer terror...
> 
> ...


Well, at the moment we have no way to totally eliminate all firearms from the earth. Take that as a fact. Also take as a fact presently there are some bad people out there. I don't mean bad as in cheating on taxes and such but bad is in taking what YOU have and have NO qualms about hurting/killing not to mention having a little FUN doing it. Are you still with me and can you imagine that? Now, assuming these people do exist and it can happen to you, what do you propose to do about it? Now you cannot push a button to get rid of all the firearms nor can you suddenly eliminate bad people. 
Know this if you would, places with the most stringent gun laws have the higher crime rate. Why is this you may ask? Let me help you out for a sec...These bad people who have no qualms hurting you and these bad people being hunters will pick out soft targets. Soft? You know who you are and so do they. And if they KNEW who was unarmed and/or unwilling to defend themselves they would go higher on the target list. No different from the predators in the jungle. 
So we as a whole need to not just be aware that these bad/predators/sociopaths actually do exist, no matter what we do we need to take steps to lower ourselves on the targeting criteria scale.

You're at anchor with your wife
and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic Terrorist/pirate/robber with the intent and ability to hurt you and yours with a huge knife/pistol/RPG comes aboard your boat and locks eyes
with you, screams obscenities, raises
the knife/pistol/shotgun, and charges at you. You are
carrying your own weapon, and you are an expert shot.
You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your
family.

What do you do?

Some peoples answer...

Well, that's not enough information to answer the
question!

Does the man look poor? Or oppressed?

Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire
him to attack?

Could we run away?

What does my wife think?

What about the kids?

Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock
the knife out of his hand?

What does the law say about this situation?

Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind
of message does this send to society and to my
children?

Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?

Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be
content just to wound me?

If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my
family get away while he was stabbing me?

Should I call 911?

An other answer...

Bang Bang , Bang , Pause while remaining behind cover, reevaluate, reload.

There is a joke we have in Barrow about jogging around town. There are polar bears out there around the outskirts of town who actually stalk and hunt people. You cannot outrun a bear however all I need is to be able to outrun you. Sooo if you insist on remaining high on the targeting list theoretically it makes me lower on the same list.

Thanks Buddy,

Jerry


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## alaskaboy (Oct 30, 2007)

Can someone point me to a site with an incident where an armed boater (maybe a shotgun) was set upon by armed bad guys and the boater was killed?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

alaskaboy said:


> Can someone point me to a site with an incident where an armed boater (maybe a shotgun) was set upon by armed bad guys and the boater was killed?


Peter Blake comes to mind.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

AlaskaBoy—

Unfortunately, there are several well-documented cases where sailors were armed and killed by armed bad guys. 

There are some cases where being armed would have saved sailors, and others where they would simply have been killed out of hand... it is pretty situation specific.


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## J36ZT (May 18, 2008)

*Statistics*



sab30 said:


> or do the next pirates bring more guns more people more ammo because who wouldnt bring a gun to a gun fight..do the next pirates start shooting first...
> 
> I cant begin to imagine what these people went through a those moments of sheer terror...
> 
> ...


Wow, what a surprise. My question then is; What about the countries that *have* outlawed guns? Shouldn't they then have *NO* deaths by guns/weapons, *No* crimes involving guns/weapons, *No* police killed by guns/weapons? Do you really think that someone who is planning on robbing you is so law-abiding that they'll leave their unregistered/stolen/illegal firearm at home? When they do bring their gun, do you think that they'll consider the consequences before they pull the trigger? If the playing field were even for everyone (ie no guns, no swords, no knives, no bombs, etc), the world would obviously be a better place. Sadly, these things do exist.

It saddens me to think that I may, inadvertently, put my life in danger by NOT carrying a firearm. The really sad reality is not all societies value human life or have the police capability to investigate those that don't.

Again, the best answer is to avoid (or limit your contact with) societies/countries that pose a threat to your live. Hopefully, when the governments of these countries see a decline in their tourism they'll take action. Otherwise...enter at your own risk, whether you're armed or not!

The bell tolls for each sailor who dies...especially those murdered.

Skipper, J/36 "Zero Tolerance"


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## BrandyIsland (Nov 4, 2008)

Better yet, who the hell wants to sail somewhere you have to carry arms? Cruising is about pleasure and self sufficiency, not gun fights. There are hundreds of civilized places to cruise...


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

BrandyIsland said:


> Better yet, who the hell wants to sail somewhere you have to carry arms? Cruising is about pleasure and self sufficiency, not gun fights. There are hundreds of civilized places to cruise...


Great idea. Where is this utopia where never is violent crime? Refer to post #12...(I think I just went a bit lower on the targeting list.)


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Therapy...we are seeing different times of editing on the SSCA site...but given the exact 5 hour difference I am guessing you are set to GMT and I am on Eastern standard time! Note that there has been a further edit now adjusting the last paragraph and more cruisers including one from the marina in VZ have weighed in.

JerryLitton...the quote from my post makes it look like those are MY words. Just to keep the record straight...those are NOT my words...but those of the cruiser reporting the incident. Furthermore...they do NOT reflect my opinions on the matter!!

I'm going to refrain from the whole guns/no guns arguments which is where I predicted this thread would quickly go. 
Aside from additional details...one point of interest for me will be HOW the gov't of VZ responds to the killings of their citizens with firearms aboard a foreign yacht anchored in VZ waters in violation of their customs procedures. Hopefully...they will consider it frontier justice and leave them alone in their grief.

Those thinking about cruising VZ should navigate to this noonsite page and read of all the incidents in the last year. This is no place for peaceful cruising. http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Venezuela


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## alaskaboy (Oct 30, 2007)

Here are a couple of storied I googled from the internet a few minutes ago. Seems to be in the same area of the world:

"Boarding by Pirates off NE Coast of Venezuela
Topic: Piracy Reports 2008
Countries: Venezuela
At approximately 1500hrs (local time) on Tuesday 1st July 2008, the sailing yacht "Naxos" was boarded by six heavily armed pirates NNE of Cacao off the northern coast of Venezuela (10 46.41N 62 16.80W).

None of the three crew aboard the yacht were physically injured during the encounter, however, the yacht was ransacked and everything of any value was stolen. The pirates took cash, jewellery, computers, radios, satellite phone, cell phones, EPIRB, outboard motor, AC unit, food, clothing, bedding and other items.

"Naxos" was approached from behind by a very fast pirogue-type open fishing boat. Although the boat was not far from a harbour, the attackers came alongside and asked for water. When the captain of "Naxos" attempted to pass a water container to them, he was immediately facing 6 guns (5 x 9mm automatic pistols and 1 x semi automatic rifle).

The attackers made no effort to hide either their own identity or that of the attacking vessel. The attacking vessel was an open pirogue-type fishing boat with four Yamaha 75hp outboard motors. The hull was mostly dark green with a wide turquoise stripe over and a narrow red stripe separating the green from the turquoise. The boat displays the name "Amguna" on the stern and "Moss" on the bow.

Please make this information available to all cruisers so that they can make informed decisions about whether or not they cruise in this area. I for one will be giving the coast of Venezuela a very large offing in the future.

Peter Scott
Captain S.V. Naxos"

Another Venezuela story from Dec 2005:
Armed Caribbean pirates loot B.C. surgeon's yacht
Maurice Bridge ,* Vancouver Sun
Published:*Tuesday, December 13, 2005
For Steve McVicar, the worst part of lying in the cockpit of his sailboat with a sawed-off shotgun pressed to his head by a Venezuelan pirate was how casually his life could end.
"It's just a horrible feeling that your life is so frail, hanging by a thread, when somebody has a gun on you," the 50-year-old Trail orthopedic surgeon said Monday in a telephone interview. "You could be gone instantly."
McVicar and his companions, another B.C. doctor and his wife, had just set off on a two-week Caribbean cruise off the coast of Venezuela early last month when pirates turned their holiday into 30 minutes of helplessness and terror.
The attack came the first evening out of Puerto la Cruz on the coast of Venezuela. McVicar had just spent two weeks working on the boat, and when his friends arrived, they headed 11 kilometres offshore to Isla Borracha and anchored for the night.
There was no reason to expect trouble. McVicar has kept Alioth, his 13-metre French-built steel-hulled ketch, in the Caribbean since 1999, and knows its waters well, heading down for two-week trips three or four times a year. Both the Venezuelan coast guard and the national guard patrol the waters around Puerto la Cruz, and the bay they anchored in was reputed to be safe.
Early in the evening, the three were lounging in the cockpit, watching a DVD. McVicar, drowsy from a cold remedy, was not keeping a watch, and the sound of the movie muffled the noise of the outboard as a six- metre open fishing boat approached.
"All of a sudden, five armed men came on board and one put a shotgun right to my head," he recalled. "The others had pistols and a machete, and they ended up tying us up and proceeded to loot the boat."
The Canadians lay on the deck, bound hand and foot, with one pirate holding the shotgun on them while his companions ransacked the main cabin.
Nearby in the darkened aft cabin, McVicar's own shotgun and a handful of shells -- a potential defence now turned appalling danger -- lay in plain sight on his bunk. Mercifully, the pirates never looked there.
"I shudder to think if they'd seen it," he said.
He remembered all too well the fate of world-class yachtsman Sir Peter Blake, who grabbed his gun to challenge pirates who boarded his boat in the Amazon River in 2001 and was shot dead on the spot.
"You think, if only I had my gun up on deck, I could have loaded it, which I usually do, but what if I fired? What if they had a machine gun and fired back? You'd wind up having a firefight.
"That's what was going through my brain, so I offered no resistance, so it's just as well I didn't have my gun up there."
While he lay helpless, he could see down into the main cabin, where the pirates were pawing through his gear and taking what they fancied -- satellite phone, VHF radio, expensive sailing clothing, electronic instruments and more.
"The sad part was, I had an empty knapsack, and I had about $10,000 in a zipped pocket," he said.
"I usually hide that on the boat somewhere, but I never got around to it and they used the knapsack to put stuff in, not knowing the cash was there, so it was really disheartening to see them take the knapsack."
There was worse to come. The pirates then took the woman down into the boat and molested her, taking her clothes off.
McVicar and the woman's husband were afraid she might be taken ashore and raped, but she was left on the boat.
After 30 minutes, the pirates left, and after 10 minutes of twisting and squirming, the captives freed themselves. They contacted a French yacht lying at anchor about 300 metres away, which came to see if they were alright."

Most of the other stories include a lot of words like heavily-armed pirates, speedboats, automatic weapons, fast-moving skiffs, and such. I'm not one, and I don't think many on this list are, one bit squeamish about putting a well deserved round or two in a pirate ... but carrying much more than a shotgun doesn't seem likely in most areas of the world. Really, to come out on top of these guys, a deck and/or aft mounted 50 Cal is needed. This is unlikely to be allowed in these trouble areas like Venezuela, Somalia, Malaysia, even St. Vincent and the Grenadines, including St. Lucia. A shotgun might protect you in the latter 3 though, especially the St. Lucia rape attack. Someone mentioned not traveling to these areas. Unfortunately, that makes the most sense much of the time. I'm not a world traveler yet, but, I will in the future either be ready to submit immediately or fight to the end. As far as I'm concerned, once you piss-off someone by resisting them in anyway, you're committed to your course of action. Just like a grizzly bear attack - you either pull up in the fetal position and protect your neck or you aim straight and true and kill his ass. Sorry this is so long.


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## sab30 (Oct 11, 2006)

Whoa..hold on a sec .I think you completeley misread my post..read it again..I said it was an ethical issue..I never denied that it could work as a deterent...but questions the possible negative consequence. I stated a fact that pehaps it may couse more problems or wasnt worth the risk..never said carrying guns or owning them was inherently evil..or that I was even against it..just cant get my head around having one on a sailboat. It appears there are risks in cruising but arent there risk in going to my ATM at 1am to take money out. Could I be robbed and killed..I guess..should I bring a gun with me? 

The FACT is countries that have more relaxed gun possession requirements have more gun related deaths...does that mean countries with strict gun laws have ZERO related crimes with firearms..?? Of course not..Does that mean the relaxed gun laws are entirely to blame for higher death by guns..?? It was a question relating to a published fact

The information you provided about low gun possession countries have higher crime rates is not accurate...it is a complete mixture...some countries with pro gun laws are high on the list and some are low..some coutries that outright ban ALL guns are high on the list others are low..no correlation in crime rate to personal gun possession...but there is a strong correlation to personal gun possession and gun related death..I was questioning the accuracy of that correlation.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Cam, I need to apologize to you if it appeared I was insinuating you actually wrote that. My humblest apologies. I should have known better.
<o></o>
Jerry


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

A comment re: Piracy vs Robbery I think the definition is part of an international treaty and not as set forth in your text. While I am not an expert. it has always been my understanding that any unauthorized entry upon a vessel floating is an act of piracy.


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## sab30 (Oct 11, 2006)

Are there any organizations or groups that track these events at one site?(eg. like Boatwatch for reporting missing/lost boats) 

You would think that some pressure on the local agencies in Venezuela to address this (through mass boycott etc) would at least help mitigate the risk...maybe they just dont care. It appears there are a dissproportionate amount of reports from that region.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Sab...even Venezuela's gov't admits the danger and can do little about it. Here is THEIR website warning of "danger zones". You can see that PLC is in an "alert" zone. Noonsite carries a lot of the reports and the Caribbean Safety and Security net keeps a database of all reports by island/country though in my view it is a bit unerstated. Welcome to the Caribbean Safety and Security Net
http://www.onsa.org.ve/imagenes/pirateria/areasmapavenezuela.jpg


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## BrandyIsland (Nov 4, 2008)

jerryrlitton said:


> Great idea. Where is this utopia where never is violent crime? Refer to post #12...(I think I just went a bit lower on the targeting list.)


Bras d'Or in Nova Scotia, Rum Key and other parts of the Bahamas, British Columbia the Azores,.. Maine ,Western Scotland...I think cruisers need to rethink the standard cruise to the Caribbean , I started sailing there back in the 1970's and now would not dream of going back. Head north !!!


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I live near Detroit and work and play there often. 
"Detroit, where the weak are killed and eaten".  
"Welcome to Detroit, now leave".  
"Murder City". 
("Home of the Detroit Lions".  )

Don't carry a gun. Haven't been accosted yet.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

In all the years I have sailed here in Scotland, there has never been a reported incident of piracy. There is the occasional theft, but none of those horrors. We have the Royal Navy too, if there ever was. The Irish, Welsh and English won't do it either, Norwegians won't, Danes won't, Germans won't. 

You can arrive armed if you wish, but you will have to surrender the firearm when you arrive. You will get it back when you leave.

The weather is colder here, but you won't need an A/C. We will make you welcome too. It is probably only a bit further than Venezuela, and you can expect westerlies most of the way.

Pirates are the scum of the earth. A man is dead and only being armed would have defended him. Pirates are cowards. If you are armed, they will not be so courageous. They are savages. We are boat owners. Forget Venezuela. Avoid it.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> I am very sorry to hear that, RIP Captain.
> 
> To the family my sincere condolences...If I were American..I'd ban Venezuela once and for all as a cruisng destination..this is not the first case AND not the last..just boycot crusing in the place.


Consider Hugo Chavez banned.

That's the sort of thing you get around your country when you allow or encourage Socialism, the nationalization of your resources and your military and police are corrupt.

Chavez has dumped millions - and I think the number might be in the billions now into fighter jets, tanks and is constantly mouthing off at the US about one thing or another. So far, we've been tolerant.

This is what we get for being tolerant.

Prayers for the lady and her family.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

> To those who advocate armed resistance. maybe you need to rethink that. It is difficult to contemplate clearly and understand these things but violence is not the answer to violence. For sure it did not seem to be the answer in this case. How could any ordinary peaceful cruiser be prepared for such an eventuality? This is clearly a country in the process of self-destruction!


/sigh

Resisting can be anything. But, let me explain something. People are people, they are NOT SHEEP. They are free, independent and it doesn't matter where you're from or how you live, or what God or gods you believe in.

In my line of work, resistance is ALWAYS RIGHT. When taken hostage, you COOPERATE, but RESIST. If a gun is point at your head, you are probably going to die.

I'm going to die fighting.

I've been in these situations before. I'm still here to talk about it.

If you give up, you're dead already.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

captchetco said:


> A comment re: Piracy vs Robbery I think the definition is part of an international treaty and not as set forth in your text. While I am not an expert. it has always been my understanding that any unauthorized entry upon a vessel floating is an act of piracy.





> In international law piracy is a crime that can be committed only on or over international waters (including the high seas, exclusive economic zone, and the contiguous zone), in international airspace, and in other places beyond the territorial jurisdiction of any nation. The same acts committed in the internal waters, territorial sea, archipelagic waters, or national airspace of a nation do not constitute piracy in international law but are, instead, crimes within the jurisdiction and sovereignty of the littoral nation.
> 
> Sea robbery is a term used to describe attacks upon commercial vessels in ports and territorial waters. Such attacks are, according to international law, not true acts of piracy but rather armed robberies. They are criminal assaults on vessels and vessel crews, just as may occur to truck drivers within a port area. Such attacks pose a serious threat to trade. The methods of these attacks have varied from direct force using heavy weapons to subterfuge in which the criminals have identified themselves on VHF radio as the national coast guard.


Pirates

Legal Affairs



> Maritime piracy, according to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of 1982, consists of any criminal acts of violence, detention, or depredation committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or aircraft that is directed on the high seas against another ship, aircraft, or against persons or property on board a ship or aircraft. Piracy can also be committed against a ship, aircraft, persons, or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any state.


Piracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Introduction
> 
> Piracy has posed a threat to all states' maritime interests for nearly as long as people have sailed the oceans.1 States have long recognized the threat that piracy poses to political and commercial interests, as well as to human safety.2 Since pirates operate on the seas, the "great highway of all maritime nations," and since piracy can inflict harm upon all states, international law treats piracy as a universal crime whose perpetrators are subject to punishment by any state that apprehends them.3
> 
> [*PG150] Piracy remains a serious threat to international commerce and safety in modern times, especially in Southeast Asia.4 Commercial ships in this region have always been particularly vulnerable to the maritime attacks that characterize piracy due to the narrow waterways and countless small islands that define the region's geography.5 Nevertheless, there was a sharp increase in these attacks in the late 1990s following the massive unemployment and political instability caused by the Asian economic crisis.6 Indeed, in 2002, Southeast Asian waters played host to approximately 140 attacks.7


CASTING A WIDER NET: ADDRESSING THE MARITIME PIRACY PROBLEM IN SOUTHEAST ASIA

Like it or not, you have me on the site now.

I'm very opinionated, but I am also very informed about a lot of things especially international terrorism, piracy, robberies, and various other things most of you would prefer not to think about, and many would prefer to ignore. It is my JOB to protect the US from aggressors. That doesn't mean that myself and others like me pay only attention to that which affects the US proper. What affects us, will, ultimately affect the rest of the world.

I say that not out of arrogance, but out of pure fact. Look around. Where have terrorist attacks? Pretty much everywhere. Including the US. The US has dealt with pirates before, on a larger scale than one or two men in a small boat armed with guns.

What is especially bad about this particular attack (and yes, I want more details as well) is that it directly has affected the cruising community now.

There is an attitude that permeates many people in the world and of late has been infecting Americans to a degree that is incomprehensible to me. That attitude is one of apathy, non-caring, and even ignoring the problems in this world because it is something they don't really want to think about.

Most would prefer to ignore these things, because they do not generally affect them directly.

People like yourselves... world travelers, people on boats, cruisers, simply can NOT ignore the reality of the world and the dangers that thrive on our own ignorance and apathy.

When we chose to ignore these things, they become even more manifest and grow in strength. Edmund Burke once said that, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

If you do nothing, except mourn the loss of one man, probably a very heroic man I might add, then you will be helping such things along.

Am I suggesting arming yourselves? No.

I'm suggesting though that you start to think such things through more carefully and be more prepared - however you wish to prepare, for this could happen to any of us.

I also suggest a letter writing campaign to Hugo Chavez - among others, inundate him and his government with letters demanding he fix his little piracy problem and tell him that you, as a tourist and cruiser will no long help his economy because of this incident.

Will it help? It probably will give him pause from getting thousands of letters, yes.

And the same to be said for any place that lets these roaming terrorists get away scott free, or to wander the seas in search of their next victims.

/rant off


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

N0NJY said:


> That's the sort of thing you get around your country when you allow or encourage Socialism, the nationalization of your resources and your military and police are corrupt.


With all due respect, what you just said, is absolutely absurd. What does it have to do with the issue? What do you know about socialism, not by reading or hearing..but by living with it? You don't..you never had to live in it..

You must be confusing Socialism, with Marxism Leninism, aka Comunism.

Socialism is what you have in Europe, in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc..and what you are calling "socialism" is what you had in the Soviet Union before..that's where stuff gets nationalized...

For the record, I am not Socialist, on the contrary, I am right wing conservative, what we call Social Democrat (Republican in the US)...and have lived in both European Socialism and Social Democratic governements, since 1974 I talk by expereince...Socialism does not mean all is now part of the Government..that's propaganda.

We even had (briefely...didn't last long)..a comunist government, right after 1974..they're the ones that nationalized everything and my family suffrerd from it...


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

N0NJY;399427
I also suggest a letter writing campaign to Hugo Chavez - among others said:


> Nah.
> 
> I don't think he really cares. Actually I think he has a little smile.
> 
> ...


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

alaskaboy said:


> Can someone point me to a site with an incident where an armed boater (maybe a shotgun) was set upon by armed bad guys and the boater was killed?





> Armed boarder dies in fight on boat in Phuket
> Owner retaliates with knife after being shot
> source: Bkk Post
> 
> ...


http://news.prd.go.th/news_detail.php?newsid=215978


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> With all due respect, what you just said, is absolutely absurd. What does it have to do with the issue? What do you know about socialism, not by reading or hearing..but by living with it? You don't..you never had to live in it..
> 
> You must be confusing Socialism, with Marxism Leninism, aka Comunism.
> 
> Socialism is what you have in Europe, in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc..and what you are calling "socialism" is what you had in the Soviet Union before..that's where stuff gets nationalized...


I'm doing nothing of the kind. What I said is NOT absurd, it's a fact.  What do *I* know about socialism? Well, I could go on for hours, but I won't.

Suffice it to say, my friend, you don't know me other than what I've posted in this forum (and others) so, unless and until you meet me in person, keep your opinion about what you think I know and don't know to yourself.

I'll TELL you what I know when I feel like saying what I know.

I will tell you this. What I have said is not "opinion", what I state is based on facts. Unfortunately, I was more correct than I thought when I stated that too many people are truly ignorant of the rest of the world, or what goes on around them when it is of no interest.

I'd suggest you spend some time studying our little friend "Hugo" before you go off making remarks that what I say is "absurd" 

By the way - *I* don't have to "confuse socialism with communism" - that's done easily enough by the people who subscribe to socialism.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

Oh, and Giu, one other thing.

Here's what the CIA has to say about Senor Chavez:



> Venezuela was one of three countries that emerged from the collapse of Gran Colombia in 1830 (the others being Ecuador and New Granada, which became Colombia). For most of the first half of the 20th century, Venezuela was ruled by generally benevolent military strongmen, who promoted the oil industry and allowed for some social reforms. Democratically elected governments have held sway since 1959. *Hugo CHAVEZ, president since 1999, seeks to implement his "21st Century Socialism," which purports to alleviate social ills while at the same time attacking globalization and undermining regional stability. Current concerns include: a weakening of democratic institutions, political polarization, a politicized military, drug-related violence along the Colombian border, increasing internal drug consumption, overdependence on the petroleum industry with its price fluctuations, and irresponsible mining operations that are endangering the rain forest and indigenous peoples.*


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Guil : 

If you are a "right-wing conservative", then I come from Neptune.

Social democrats are right-wing conservatives? In Europe?


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## alaskaboy (Oct 30, 2007)

*More Venezuela warnings*

While goggling found this site:
NEWS
It reads: "Pirates of the Caribbean - Mostly in Venezuela"
￼
'Welcome to the Caribbean' ** Nancy Knudsen
Caribbean Security has over the years become so much of a problem that way back in 1996 local cruisers formed a self-help organisation - now a website - to alert intending sailors to the do's and don'ts of visiting the region. However now the Caribbean Safety and Security Net claims that recent newspaper reports are so skewed that intending visitors do not have the correct information.

Chateaubelair, an anchorage in St Vincent and the Grenadines in the Windward Islands, has been a particular hotspot, and as recently as last month another yacht reported being boarded by four men armed with machetes and knives, who robbed the crew of about $400 EC. Yachts continued to be cautioned to use extreme security precautions if anchoring at Chateaubelair, or, better yet, anchor in another bay.

*It is in Venezuela, the organisation claims, that piracy has increased recently, not in other parts of the Caribbean.* Recently there have been seven reports from Venezuela, armed boardings of the paria Peninsula and in the Venezuelan island of Margarita, in both usually safe Porlamar and the 'off-limits' bay of Pampatar.

Melodye Boatmillie, who runs the Security Website, has particularly complained about the LA Times and Yachting Monthly, quoting them as saying that there have been 'attacks on yachts with increasing frequency and dozens of incidents involving beatings and stabbings and that the Net has been wrongly quoted as the source of that information. This, claims Melodye is untrue of the rest of the region.

Recently Melody told Sail-World Cruising, 'While I acknowledge that the Security Net does not receive reports of all crimes against yachts, I believe that what we do receive is a fair indication of what and where the problems are. Yes, Chateaubelair has been a problem spot, since the recent rash of armed robberies began in November 2007. But the data indicates that in the time period since then, the increase in reports has come almost exclusively from Venezuela, an area not even mentioned in either the LA TIMES story nor the YACHTING MONTHLY article.' 
￼
As to what is the cause of the rash of attacks on yachts in the Venezuelan region, Melodye has this to say,'Let's not fall back on blaming poverty as the excuse. None of these men were robbing in order to feed their families. It's guys who don't want to work, but still want the cell phones, the CD and DVD players, and yes probably, the drugs. If in fact, poverty was to blame for the crimes against yachts, the incidence of crime would be much higher.

'Most of the people in the island chain and in Venezuela are good, honest, hard-working folks who do not consider crime as a means to an end. In fact, they are as horrified as we are when their community is damaged by one of these incidents and are insulted to hear that some are saying that the standard of living is responsible for crime.

If you're thinking of going to the Caribbean any time soon, refer to the Caribbean Safety and Security Net for the latest information on security.
===========
NEWS

22 August - Chateaubelair, St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Still another report received from a yacht boarded on 21 July in this dangerous anchorage.* This brings to seven confirmed reports during the past year, with* three more unconfirmed.* All reports are similar: three or four men armed with machetes and guns, robbing the crew and guests of cash and personal electronics. Yachtsmen are warned to avoid this anchorage at all costs and to alert their friends if the dangers here.

19 August - Pampatar, Margarita
The Security Net has received the second report in six weeks of an assault and robbery of a single-handed yachtsman in Pampatar.* The details of these reports are quite similar, so it seems that the same gang is responsible.* The Port Captain in Pampatar closed the port to anchored yachts several years ago, to allow space for the local fishing fleet.* That closing, plus these two incidents, put the Pampatar anchorage outside the legal and safe anchorages in Venezuela.* Yachtsmen are encouraged to avoid that anchorage.

15 August - Rio Dulce, Guatemala
While outside the normal reporting areas of the Security Net, yachtsmen planning to head to the Rio should know that a number of armed boardings took place early in August.* In one case, the captain was injured so severely that he died and his wife was hospitalized with her injuries.* Two days later, two different yachts were boarded: one was ransacked while the crew was held at gunpoint and the second lost a portable generator locked topside after a lengthy attempt to break in through the companionway.* Police have arrested several men, linked closely to these incidents, and there have been two causalities in their attempts to evade capture.* Yachts heading to the Rio Dulce should stay abreast of current events from reliable sources, not rumors and gossip and blogs.

W A R N I N G* 5 JANUARY 2008:* PROBLEMS IN CHATEAUBELAIR, ST. VINCENT
Over the past six weeks or so, the Security Net has received reports of possibly as many as seven different incidents of crime against yachts at anchor in Chateaubelair.* Two of the reports have full details and are listed In the MOST RECENT and SOWINDWARDS reports on the ISLAND REPORTS page of this website.* The remaining reports are fragments and may represent several versions of the same one or two reports.* There are, however, sufficiently differing details that I think the potential is there for them to be distinctly separate incidents. 
Chateaubelair has been a trouble spot in the past for visiting yachts and it appears that this is again the situation. Until the St. Vincent authorities can assure the yachting community that the problem is properly being addressed and and are working towards a final resolution, the Security Net advises all yachts to give serious consideration to the recent events before making a decision to stop. If a yacht wishes to stop in Chateaubelair, I would suggest that the utmost in precautions be implemented - see Precautions on the History page of this website for suggestions.

Update 23 January:* There are now four confirmed reports and three additional very possible. All involved armed robberies, and several included injuries. Please exercise all appropriate precautions if you must anchor at Chateaubelair.
===========
Sailing Caribbean Pirate Attack and the Hero Dog | seabreeze.com.au
Go to above for a really dramatic story on *maybe* how to survive a pirate attack. Shows the grit of two British sailors. I admire their attitude.
===========
SSCA Discussion Board :: View topic - "Pirate" attack, Venezuela, March, 2008
"A French charter boat skipper who operated his business from French St. Martin for four years has been murdered by pirates in Venezuela, close to the capital of Caracas, Venezuelan authorities have reported. Philippe Leudière was *shot by pirates some time during the night of September 14, 2008 while his Lagoon 410 catamaran Chrysalide was at anchor in the port of Caraballeda."*
"According the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs, this is the fourth act of piracy against French nationals cruising in the region since the beginning of the year. *They strongly caution against cruising the coast of Venezuela or visiting the island of Margarita, because of an increase in attacks."*
===========
And for those interested in a bit of Portugal political history, at least it seems non-biased:
Portugal - Government


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

*Arrogance and self-importance*

I find it fascinating to read the verbal diarrhea of all the self confessed "experts" regarding politics, humanity and the way the world purportedly "IS".

The fact is we all have an operating paradigm. This paradigm is formed by various factors and basically controls what we believe. No person's paradigm is necessarily more "true" or "correct" than anothers, only in the context of your starting point and of course your self interest, which more often than not has a significant amount of selfishness underlying.

People who know everything and start name calling when challenged, are prime examples of morons who cannot see the arrogance of their self assurance and the fact that it is grounded on a specific viewpoint, anchored on nothing more concrete than a shaky worldview of how things "should" be. The fact is the reality can be different, and is changing anyway. In a thousand years probably EVERYTHING we believe strongly in now, will have been shown to have been utterly wrong.

So, I suggest you true zealots temper your arrogance with a little humility and acknowledgement that you may, in fact, be wrong...

M Murphy


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## alaskaboy (Oct 30, 2007)

Not to argue with you Mr. Murphy, as I basically agree with you, but... when you call people morons aren't you one of those "People who know everything and start name calling when challenged, are prime examples of morons who cannot see the arrogance of their self assurance."

Just asking in a friendly beer drinking, laughing manner.

And technically, a moron is an overused term for a person with a mental age between 8 and 12 that was used and abused by my 4 ex-wives, though history may find them to be correct according to my current wonderful wife as I do throw money into a hole in the water every month.


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

HA - I knew I'm going to get it because of using that term! I didn't want to edit the post however, partly to see if I'll get reamed as a result of it, and partly because edited texts sometimes leave people wondering...

Anyway, I agree, I should not have used that derogatory word and I apologize. Seems I'm just as arrogant...  . That's my point I guess.... we have this natural inclination to think everyone else is wrong and I'm right. Individuals have it and so do nations and civilizations. The fact is; EVERYONE is wrong in most ways and is only right in the context of his/her very own paradigm. It's a quantum universe after all. We're just muddling along.

M Murphy


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## alaskaboy (Oct 30, 2007)

That's what I thought. Will buy you an Alaskan Amber if you ever get up here.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

sab30 said:


> Whoa..hold on a sec .I think you completeley misread my post..read it again..I said it was an ethical issue..I never denied that it could work as a deterent...but questions the possible negative consequence. I stated a fact that pehaps it may couse more problems or wasnt worth the risk..never said carrying guns or owning them was inherently evil..or that I was even against it..just cant get my head around having one on a sailboat. It appears there are risks in cruising but arent there risk in going to my ATM at 1am to take money out. Could I be robbed and killed..I guess..should I bring a gun with me?


Guns are not, and never have been the problem. All countries HAVE them. Some BAN them from their citizens, and it doesn't prevent CRIMINALS from getting them.



> The FACT is countries that have more relaxed gun possession requirements have more gun related deaths...does that mean countries with strict gun laws have ZERO related crimes with firearms..?? Of course not..Does that mean the relaxed gun laws are entirely to blame for higher death by guns..?? It was a question relating to a published fact


The FACT is, you're WRONG here. Countries that have BANNED GUNS have seen a drastic increase in both GUN crimes and non-gun-related robberies and other violent crimes. That's a FACT. No, I'm not going to waste my time quoting the statistics either. Look it up instead of believing that hogwash.



> The information you provided about low gun possession countries have higher crime rates is not accurate...it is a complete mixture...some countries with pro gun laws are high on the list and some are low..some coutries that outright ban ALL guns are high on the list others are low..no correlation in crime rate to personal gun possession...but there is a strong correlation to personal gun possession and gun related death..I was questioning the accuracy of that correlation.


Wrong again.

You are misquoting at best, some of the biggest anti-gun groups in the United States. They make a lot of wild-assed claims about "gun death" with guns in the hands of the populace. I spent three years a few years back going to debate, after debate with these people. I could show using the same stats they were using they were LYING. I was on some local radio shows umpteen times here and the Brady people and "Handgun Inc" REFUSED to show up consistently.

We used their own data, and provided the sources of the data - and showed where they were lying.

One stat I remember off the top of my head had to do with "suicide in children". I don't recall the exact numbers now, but what I DO recall is that THEIR version of "Child" was anyone from the age of 18 months to the age of TWENTY-NINE YEARS OLD... because, you know they aren't 30 yet....

Their attempt was to take some known suicide numbers among "young adults" and feed that in to twist the numbers so it looked liked thousands and thousands of children were killing themselves with their parents guns.

it was a LIE. It is STILL a LIE.

Screw it... yes I WILL give you some cites:



> The Lott-Mustard Report
> 
> John Lott and David Mustard, in connection with the University of Chicago Law School, examining crime statistics from 1977 to 1992 for all U.S. counties, concluded that the thirty-one states allowing their residents to carry concealed, had significant reductions in violent crime. Lott writes, "Our most conservative estimates show that by adopting shall-issue laws, states reduced murders by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens might have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies. To put it even more simply criminals, we found, respond rationally to deterrence threats... While support for strict gun-control laws usually has been strongest in large cities, where crime rates are highest, that's precisely where right-to-carry laws have produced the largest drops in violent crimes."
> 
> (Source: "More Guns, Less Violent Crime", Professor John R. Lott, Jr., The Wall Street Journal, August 28, 1996, (The Rule of Law column).





> Concealed Carry Laws Reduce Crime
> 
> Major crime fell dramatically in states which have legalized the carrying of concealed handguns, according to a comprehensive new study at the University of Chicago.
> 
> ...





> States with right-to-carry laws have lower overall violent crime rates, compared to states without right-to-carry laws. In states whose laws respect the citizen's right-to-carry guns for self defense the total violent crime is 13% lower, homicide is 3% lower, robbery is 26% lower and aggravated assault is 7% lower. (Data: Crime in the United States 1996, FBI Uniform Crime Reports)


I'll say this... the Left and the anti-gun lobby in the US has spent years and millions trying to prove that guns are the cause of the problem, that crime is rampant because guns are available to every man, woman and child in this country.

They have tried to say the most disingenuous things - such that someone like me, because I own guns, is just a heartbeat away from killing myself with one of them, or going off my rocker and walking into my job and murdering hundreds of people.

The fact is that ANYONE has that capability - but the vast majority would NOT do it.

The fact that someone PLANS such a thing should tell you something like with Klebold and Harris at Columbine. They PLANNED their attack, methodically and carefully even down to killing themselves.

Hiding the guns wouldn't have stopped them. They'd have used another method like gasoline and propane tanks, or something else.

Removing guns from CRIMINALS is JUST fine. Criminalizing guns is lunacy.

Lying about facts and statistics like the anti-gun lobby does all the time is wrong and disingenuous. Worse, it is an attempt to brainwash children to make them think like a good Leftists.

The final insult about guns is that, if you could possibly remove them from a people, then you can CONTROL those people AND THEIR SPEECH.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

magnusmurphy said:


> I find it fascinating to read the verbal diarrhea of all the self confessed "experts" regarding politics, humanity and the way the world purportedly "IS".


How many countries have you visited, Mr. Murphy?


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

magnusmurphy said:


> HA - I knew I'm going to get it because of using that term! I didn't want to edit the post however, partly to see if I'll get reamed as a result of it, and partly because edited texts sometimes leave people wondering...
> 
> Anyway, I agree, I should not have used that derogatory word and I apologize. Seems I'm just as arrogant...  . That's my point I guess.... we have this natural inclination to think everyone else is wrong and I'm right. Individuals have it and so do nations and civilizations. The fact is; EVERYONE is wrong in most ways and is only right in the context of his/her very own paradigm. It's a quantum universe after all. We're just muddling along.
> 
> M Murphy


The one thing that is true and accurate thus far in this thread is the fact that a man has been killed by petty terrorists.

As for "everyone being wrong in most ways" that completely untrue. Most people are right if they take the time to stop and think about what they are doing or saying. IF they have the facts.

Unfortunately, many people spout nonsense as facts because they believe it, rather than understand and get the facts first. Like about "guns" for instance.

It's not difficult in the dangerous world in which we live for a criminal to get a gun, but in many places it's downright IMPOSSIBLE for law-abiding folks to do so.

That too, is a FACT and not a paradigm.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Don't let them do this to you, Americans...

Tony Martin (farmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

That is typical of what happens here in the UK if you defend yourself. More than a few were outraged by this affiar.


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

How many countries have I visited?
Well, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but anyway, I've lived in four and visited probably over forty or fifty different countries.

You strike me as someone who is very sure of himself. Just remember, most so called "studies" are biased. I know that very well in my profession. So, even the studies you quote do NOT prove anything other than the fact that that one study showed a certain result. One will have to very carefully look at the methodology, statistical manipulation and the underlying null hypotheses and the study designers' biases and affiliations before we can conclude anything. Some of your so-called facts are positively ludicrous anyway, like your assertions of more violence in countries without hand-guns.

Remember, there are: Lies....damn lies and then there are statistics.

M Murphy


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## TxLnghrn (Apr 22, 2008)

*It's not any better on this side of the pond*

Let us not forget (and I mean never forget and never quit until they are free).
Ramos and Compean
Ramos-Compean
If this doesn't define PC run amok and prosecutorial misconduct. I don't know what does.

Guess which side of the gun control/concealed carry arguement I come down on. 

Michael


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## TxLnghrn (Apr 22, 2008)

magnusmurphy said:


> How many countries have I visited?
> Well, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but anyway, I've lived in three and visited probably over forty or fifty different countries.
> 
> You strike me as someone who is very sure of himself. Just remember, most so called "studies" are biased. I know that very well in my profession. So, even the studies you quote do NOT prove anything other than the fact that that one study showed a certain result. One will have to very carefully look at the methodology, statistical manipulation and the underlying null hypotheses and the study designers' biases and affiliations before we can conclude anything. Some of your so-called facts are positively ludicrous anyway, like your assertions of more violence in countries without hand-guns.
> ...


MM,
I'm just guessing here, but would your profession involve working closely with or at an institution of "higher learning?" Perhaps with many fine studies being funded by taxpayer dollars?

Michael

p.s. Note to moderators...you may want to move this thread to off-topic soon, seems like we are already there yet again.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Do I have gunS on board, maybe? Do I go places where I need them? It is sort of like a pick up truck. If you need one, nothing else works.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

magnusmurphy said:


> How many countries have I visited?
> Well, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but anyway, I've lived in three and visited probably over forty or fifty different countries.
> 
> You strike me as someone who is very sure of himself. Just remember, most so called "studies" are biased. I know that very well in my profession. So, even the studies you quote do NOT prove anything other than the fact that that one study showed a certain result. One will have to very carefully look at the methodology, statistical manipulation and the underlying null hypotheses and the study designers' biases and affiliations before we can conclude anything. Some of your so-called facts are positively ludicrous anyway, like your assertions of more violence in countries without hand-guns.
> ...


I am sure of myself. I've been to exactly 45 countries. I've lived in one. Did you visit those places for pleasure or work? I visited them for work. Four were for vacation. I saw how a lot of the world lives and it ain't pretty.

You need to read all the stuff I've posted here, including the last quote you made by Mark Twain.

I wonder what your profession might be, based on the bias you have against 'studies' that are biased. lol

Most of the statistics *I* use are pulled directly from crime studies made by the FBI. Perhaps those that use those studies are abusing the material - I don't do that. I'll give raw numbers, but not here. I've posted that information elsewhere and this really isn't the place, off-topic or not.

It's an intelligent man that questions the data, and then goes and proves it is right for himself.

As for my "assertions" - they are not mine, they are those of several government agencies in various countries that I quote from.

I'd suggest that instead of throwing out what I said as "ludicrous" that you do the research yourself. I've been involved in this for a long, long time and I'm too tired to go back and read it all again for someone else's pleasure. It's up to you now to prove YOUR statements and prove me wrong.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

Rockter said:


> Don't let them do this to you, Americans...
> 
> Tony Martin (farmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> That is typical of what happens here in the UK if you defend yourself. More than a few were outraged by this affiar.


Link was broken.

Tony Martin (farmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

There, fixed it. Twice. Now it is working


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## lbdavis (Apr 23, 2007)

N0NJY said:


> Oh, and Giu, one other thing.
> 
> Here's what the CIA has to say about Senor Chavez:
> 
> Hugo CHAVEZ, president since 1999, seeks to implement his "21st Century Socialism," which purports to alleviate social ills while at the same time attacking globalization and undermining regional stability. Current concerns include: *a weakening of democratic institutions, political polarization, a politicized military, drug-related violence* along the Colombian border, *increasing internal drug consumption, overdependence on the petroleum industry with its price fluctuations, and irresponsible mining operations* that are endangering the rain forest and indigenous peoples.


Well that doesn't sound very unique.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

NONJY - dude, you're like the Alex Jones of the Rockies here! I took a look at the TAA website in your profile (and the reading material) - and that's some edgy stuff. As one who can relate to the quote in your sig - I say, knock yourself out. It's entertaining.

Now I'm guessing that you've chosen sailing as your means of survival when the Russia/China axis sucks us all into the toilet? And the mountain lake thing is temporary (judging by the other quote in your sig).

All I can say is dip a rail, brother. And let's hope the fishin' is good, eh?


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## sab30 (Oct 11, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> NONJY - dude, you're like the Alex Jones of the Rockies here! I took a look at the TAA website in your profile (and the reading material) - and that's some edgy stuff. As one who can relate to the quote in your sig - I say, knock yourself out. It's entertaining.
> 
> Now I'm guessing that you've chosen sailing as your means of survival when the Russia/China axis sucks us all into the toilet? And the mountain lake thing is temporary (judging by the other quote in your sig).
> 
> All I can say is dip a rail, brother. And let's hope the fishin' is good, eh?


Oh well thats great...I thought at worst the NRA would come knocking for a chat because of my questions on firearm possession  ...I just wanted to question the pros and cons to owning a firearm on a boat as protection as I cant see it being worth it ..Im in Canada I dont want to be associated with the AXIS  ..or maybe all along it was us...moo ahh ahh...shhhhh


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)




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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Now you're talkin'. Oh, BTW, I think he got eaten.


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

NONJY

You sound like a true Crusader trying to save all of us from ignorance. Or is it to convert us all to your particular religion, part of which seems to be a bit of paranoia, some radicalism and a smack of fundamentalism.
Yes the world is a messed up place. Yes there are bad people out there. And yes, we are VERY, VERY lucky to live in the developed world in rich countries. This is pure luck for us and does not indicate any higher moral status compared to anyone else.

As for your proof: Remember the "weapons of mass destruction" that weren't? That was touted as ABSOLUTELY proven. Also, can you even begin to argue that the US has lower rates of violence and especially gun related violence than European countries as well as Canada, who ban handguns. Just try to do that. Just that one example makes your NRA inspired arguments sound hysterically funny.

mmurphy


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Mr. Murphy,

I am just OUTRAGED that you would dare refer to me as "a smack of fundamentalism".

I offer that you need to think long and hard as to cavalierly bandying about such a demeaning _nom de guerre_. It must by now be perfectly evident that I patently reject fundamentals of any kind.

I'll await your humble apology and groveling.

Sincerely,

Smackdaddy


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

They banned them in the UK in about 1996. Gun crime continued to go up, and up, and up ever since.
Legally held guns had very little crime.
Now they are held by the police only.


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

come come Smackdaddy take a deep breath. I wasn't talking to you or about you.... it was directed at NOJOY (I mean NONJY). Unfortunately I can't splice comments in so it just ends at the end of the list. I started typing and then had other things to do. When I finally push send, I guess you were first...


Now back to more important things; the tragedy at hand. I remember when there was a murder in the Rio Dulce earlier this year the authorities sent in a swat team to take out the gang perpretrating it and thereby winning the confidence of the cruising community. It'll be interesting to hear what the VZ authorities are going to do. My own boat is in Grenada and we were considering cruising to VZ. There's little chance of that happening now however. I have many cruising friends in those waters at the moment however and I am very worried about their safety.

M Murphy


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## alaskaboy (Oct 30, 2007)

Below are seemingly straight forward statistics regarding persons who are licensed to carry concealed weapons vs adverse incidents among that group. I could not quickly find stats regarding crimes committed by the general handgun carrying community, ie, including the criminals who carry guns but are not licensed. Alaska does not require a license anymore. It confirms licensed persons are not gun-happy trouble makers. It would seem that there is a different element of society responsible for gun related crime. There were multiple sites that confirmed the below findings.

Gun Control

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated: "lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)

* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15) (my division 18/221,443=0.000081% committed a crime, and that is not necessarily a crime of violence)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Personally, I think a well armed society is a much politer society... A mugger is far less likely to try mugging someone if there is a high percentage chance the person could be packing and that they could get shot for their trouble.  

One of my favorite people is a 68 year-old granny who carries a Glock 9mm. She's a very good shot, and looks like a nice little granny...but will shoot you stone cold dead if you give her a reason. She and her family all have CCW permits... and get a free Glock calendar every year for some reason... Of course, she lives in Virginia... where CCW permits are relatively common.


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## sab30 (Oct 11, 2006)

I wouldnt think a law abiding citizen who is carry a weapon with a permit is too much of a threat to societies...as others have said its the criminals who have these guns that become the "lethal combination" 

But where do they get these guns (handguns specifically)...the unscrupulous gun shop owner...or the house they break in..knowing the odds of having a handgun in the house are pretty good with that many in society.

Im suspect the handgun death rate is so low in Canada due to our lack of handguns..they are restricted..prohibited weapons..law enforecement and target shooting (very limited) Hard for a criminal to get a handgun when there arent any around (unless smuggled in) Not many rove around with long guns to do crime..again I would suspect the reason is that would somewhat draw attention to yourself. It should be noted that Canada has one of the HIGHEST gun possession rates overall in the world yet homicide by firearm remains consistent with other non-US countries.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> Im suspect the handgun death rate is so low in Canada due to our lack of handguns..they are restricted..prohibited weapons..


Your suspicions are wrong. While overall gun crime has been decreasing in Canada, use of hand guns has been increasing.

From this article:



> Use of handguns to commit homicide on the rise
> 
> In 2007, 126 homicides were committed with a handgun, 16 more than in 2006. The rate of homicides committed with a handgun has more than doubled over the past 20 years. At the same time, the use of rifles/shotguns to commit homicide continues to decline.


The Daily, Thursday, October 23, 2008. Homicides

I predict that as Canada becomes more urban and more diverse, your crime statistics will begin to look more and more like your cousins to the south. If you compare Canadian provinces with their neighboring states, you'll find very similar statistics. That was demonstrated by a study by a U.W. professor a few years back.


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## sab30 (Oct 11, 2006)

Good point ERPS..just to clarify I didnt say it was going down I said it was low 

You are entirely correct handgun crime is going up quickly and becoming a big problem..but we arent selling them here..and there are not many around in peoples homes to be stolen..



> A barrage of gunfire in recent days in and around Canada's most populous city has police and crime experts worried about the proliferation of illegal handguns north of the border, many of them coming from the United States.
> 
> While guns purchased in Canada that are later stolen from their owners comprise a major source for the illegal trade, the coalition says smuggled guns account for more than half the handguns recovered by police that are used to commit crimes in Canada.
> 
> "Pointing to the obvious problem of U.S. guns coming into Canada has sort of been the invisible elephant that nobody's been prepared to address," Cukier said.


Guns stolen from owners still becomes a large factor but evidence may suggest that more guns coming in and entering society are a direct cause for the increase in handgun crime.


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## sab30 (Oct 11, 2006)

I think its a moot point...cant start removing handguns now in some utopic society..kinda like removing cars to reduce car accidents..it seems to strike me as the theory of MAD when it came to nuclear weapons. Need guns to protect us from BAD people that most likely have guns...

Again to refocus the thread I think consensus is everyone is concerned about protection and managing risk for what could be a horrible situation....I just dont know if the risk warrants a firearm..it may


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## inshallamiami (Jan 2, 2004)

um, any moderators moderating here? this is more guns/no guns, right/left etc. shouldn't this be in off topic, or maybe start a "fight club" forum ?:clobber


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## devastated (Nov 11, 2008)

To all, camaraderie said it right with "..but let's get further details before jumping to any conclusions." However, the post he/she re-posted from SSCA is not entirely correct, is missing key details and contains an opinion on the situation for which he has no basis. Ken Peters is my father. Four cruisers were there saturday night and four only. It's disheartening to see all sorts of assumptions, incorrect ones, being made. Please respect my parents and their very brave friends in this horrible time of tragedy and let us all grieve in peace. Post your opinions as you may, but please do not post opinions of what happened, as you were not there. My father never had a chance and it's only by a miracle and bravery that my mother, Steve and Gloria are still here with us. Only seven people know all the details, and two of them are not here to describe it. Luckily, one of those two people will not be around to hurt anyone else in the future and sadly, the second is deeply missed. I wish safe journeys to you all. If someone also has access to SSCA, please feel free to post my reply on there, as I do not have access. Also, let it be known that my mother was not a part of posting this message. This is my voice only. -Christi, loving daughter of Ken & Cathy Peters.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Christi...thanks for coming on here in your grief and in the midst of this tragedy. I was afraid this discussion would quickly degenerate but thought sailors should know about the violence there in any case. I hope that decision has not caused you further pain. Condolences to you and your family.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Self defense is not just using guns it is a state of mind*

My condolences to the family of Ken Peters. I have heard that this area has lately become dangerous. There was no way that Ken was able to avoid that attack since he thought they were friendlies.

VZ has gotten more dangerous due to the extreme poverty that some suffer and the luxury goods that cruisers have on them.

Sailors shoud be wary of approaching boats of criminal intentions. If the criminals can not board then they can not steal. I have heard the use of electric fenses and the need for watches to prevent theft while anchored.

Sailors and cruisers are friendly people and used to being approached with no ill intent. However that is changing in a lot of areas so being more watchful and wary is needed.

My admiration for Steve in reacting fast enough to prevent further injuries to their wives. The use of a shotgun is the commonly used defense weapon against robbery.

However in Somalia that is insufficient and more creative methods are needed.

Sailors unlike CCW holders in the States have to deal with port regulations that severly restrict the armament that can be carried on board. Shotguns are about the only allowable weapon in the Carribean.

Most countries have severe restrictions on guns that come in by boat and since yachts have to come into port sometime the storage of guns is a problem.

But yachters do have be aware that in many situation they are the only ones capable of saving themselves and that also means from robbers, rapists and pirates.

I personally used to travel by yacht in the US up and down the eastern seaboard in the 1970s and we had shotguns for sport and skeet not for defense, onboard with no problems. But we did not carry then when we went to the Bahamas.

So think carefully about the decision to carry weapons and research the port regulations of your intinerary. Sail safely.

Carry if you want but besides robbery and piracy you have the additional problem with the local law if guns are regulated.

Again condolences to the Perry family and hope that Steve recovers quickly.


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## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

sab30 said:


> or do the next pirates bring more guns more people more ammo because who wouldnt bring a gun to a gun fight..do the next pirates start shooting first...
> 
> I cant begin to imagine what these people went through a those moments of sheer terror...
> 
> ...


 You cant believe what they went trough because you have never ben in a gunfight.It sucks

Stats on countrys with the most guns legit or not i will buy.Depending on the agenda of the people taking the polls.Have you looked at the stats in england in blade/knife ER room problems?? Basically they are the same.Just problems in gun countrys are more terminal....Kill the bad guy so he can not fight another day.

Basics so far are unknown.Two boats together that were attacked.One shotgun was used....Some bad guys killed.One good guy KIA.

Do what you feal right in self protection.Obousily 911 was a little late for them.

My thoughts
Mark
PS..Lights a candle for the deceased.


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## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

therapy23 said:


> Nah.
> 
> I don't think he really cares. Actually I think he has a little smile.
> 
> ...


 I for one dont think he cares eather.
In Hurracane season you have two choices as far as insurancce goes.North or south.Going South is a whole lot cheaper than going north.

Just remember you have no 911 to call.As you do North.Measure your chances and do what you feal is right for you.
Mark


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## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

Rockter said:


> In all the years I have sailed here in Scotland, there has never been a reported incident of piracy. There is the occasional theft, but none of those horrors. We have the Royal Navy too, if there ever was. The Irish, Welsh and English won't do it either, Norwegians won't, Danes won't, Germans won't.
> 
> You can arrive armed if you wish, but you will have to surrender the firearm when you arrive. You will get it back when you leave.
> 
> ...


 Tips my hat to the Scotts,
you can also camp wherever you want as long as you close the gate behind you.A excertional country in my book.
Thank you for the great vacation 
Mark


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## justonemoreproject (Nov 13, 2008)

*tragedy*

This is horrible. It makes me sure to carrya shotgun and revolver on board when I cruise to Mexico. I don't own guns now, I once had a 357 magnum when I lived in New Mexico because everyone else did. Having it around wasn't pleasant and I sold it when I moved to California because it seemed to increase paranoia about assaults. I think having one on a boat will be a downer. But then, being shot would be too. What a world we live in!!


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Come back again there Mark. 
The "no trespass" law in Scotland takes Americans by surprise. Reasonable access is allowed just about anywhere. 
PM me before you arrive next time, and you can have a sail on Loch Ness.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

justonemoreproject said:


> ..It makes me sure to carrya shotgun and revolver on board when I cruise to Mexico...


 Not legally. See Mexican Gun Laws and realize that if you declare your shotgun to be compliant, it will most likely be kept by the authorities until such time as you check out of the country.


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## lilsparkplug (Jan 5, 2009)

Sorry to hear this.8 years ago , I was boarded by 4 fisherman in the same place at 3am who requested food,smokes and oil for there lamp.They were Armed to the teeth (AK47s and shotgun),I complied and assisted them with whatever they requested.I was singlehanding at the time aboard my 40 ft cutter. They returned at 9am later during that same day and dropped off 3 jerry cans full of diesel as payback.This could have been a whole different story .Mochimo is also a No No for cruisers but they still seem to anchor there.


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