# Intermediate sailor seeks advice re: liveaboard pocket cruisers



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I need some advice. I am looking for a boat in the 24-29 ft. range for around $10K with full keel to liveaboard and do moderate coastal cruising in New England area until my skill level is up for a Caribbean trip in a couple of years. I have been looking at old Tartan 27s, as I like the keel/centerboard option, heavy displacement, shallow draft, and have read that it is seakindly, forgiving, and a good starter boat. I have been sailing Lasers since I was 7 (now 31) and have been sailing my mom''s Catalina 22 with her on an inland lake for 2 summers. I am a "seat of my pants" sailor, but am now catching up by reading lots of sailing books, magazines, and websites for the last two years. I am concerned I lack the skill to singlehand a boat that is large enough to live on. I plan to only sail in fair weather at first, possibly get sailing friends to help, and take a training course if needed, but wonder I my plan seems a little far fetched...all comments welcome. Thanks.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sign on to the sailnet tartan list. it is very active and we can answer any questions you have about a tartan
regards
eric


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ok. Thanks.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

My situation was somewhat like yours a few years ago (comparable skill level and ambitions). I bought a slightly larger (30ft) boat for slightly more money, but I think my experience may be useful. 
1) I found actual formal sailing lessons (ie by a sailing school) very helpful. Even when the instructors were less than great, I learned from the other students (even from their mistakes). Also, having a much more experienced sailor around gave me confidence to try things I might not have normally tried, and also, being in an educational environment in a sense gives you permission to make mistakes- after all, you''re supposed to be learning.
2) I am an avid reader but I found that what one of my instructors called "stick time" (ie time at the tiller) to be one of the greatest teachers. I found myself deliberately curbing my reading and making sure I got out not only on my own but on other vessels to improve my skills.
3) I bought an older boat with the intention of fixing it up. I''ve enjoyed that process, but my background in light carpentry didn''t prepare me for the intensity and multiplicity of tasks incumbent in making an older vessel perform the way it could. Time spent fixing up a boat can often be time subtracted from sailing. If your first aim is improving your sailing skills and enjoying sailing, you might want to avoid a "fixer". 

Good luck. It sounds like you have a good attitude.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SFBay:
Thanks for your feedback. I am looking for an older Tartan 27, but definately avoiding fixers. I want to sail! Glad to know others have succeeded in what I am trying to do! I agree that a course would be good. I have considered paying an experienced sailor friend to sail with me for a week or so. Even though she is not an instructor, she has her captain''s liscence and is very experienced. That way I could get training on my own boat, one-to-one. I haven''t heard of this approach, but since I don''t thrive in groups as well as with just one person, so I thought I throw that idea out for everybody. Happy sailing!


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## adamgrabowski (Apr 28, 2001)

Libby,
I think you are on the right track. Finding the right boat is the hard part (particularly when your new) learning to sail it is the fun and easy part. If you have some experience, I would have to say avoid the group lessons. Have your friend help you pick out a boat that you both think will work for you and then have him give you private lessons on that boat. I wish I would have done the same, after a $500 sailing course! Plus if your instructor is good and makes you do everyting and just coaches from the side you will have experience and confidence in sailing "your boat". The rest can be learned from books and pratice. Have fun...


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## svdragonseeker (May 7, 2001)

Com-pac makes a very shippy pocket cruiser. I had a 23 about 10 ywears ago and it was a well built, solid boat. I beleive that one can be found for about $5,000. They seen to maintain their resale value when you wan5t to upgrade.
SV


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Libby, yours is a great question & also a common one, as it mixes together skill-building, boat choosing (& buying) and the aspiration of cruising. Here are a couple of thoughts, some of which contradict others'' comments...
1. There are no mutually-exclusive methods re: learning. You''ll learn tremendous amounts by sailing a boat yourself, and possibly meaningful amounts by sailing with others (depending on what they''ll let you do, how many crew, etc.) Visit yacht clubs (they will not throw you out), marinas, etc. and post your own crew-wanted notices, and then get out on the water.
2. Reading can be especially helpful if you read truly practical, balanced & thoughtful comments from others in your about-to-be shoes. E.g. I can not recommend Latitude 38 enough, because it''s Letters column (many, many pages) and Changes In Latitude column are exclusively written by other sailors (but commented on by the publishing team, which is very experienced). This monthly free mag (as contrasted by the biker-sailor mag of similar title, which is sold) is available at no charge at all West Marine stores; since we began full-time cruising, it is the only subscription I have maintained.
3. Realize that you have set contradictory goals for yourself and so must accept substantial compromise in them. Small boats are less capable of long-term (multiple months) cruising re: seakeeping, food & water stowage, comfort, etc.) tho'' easier to single-hand. Buying a $5-10K boat that you hope to safely cruise just means needing to spend more money to prep it safely (how old is the rigging? how about that centerboard pin and rudder bearings? how many coats of fresh bottom paint?) This doesn''t mean you can''t find an old/cheap boat and head out, just that you must accept more compromise in the experience (altering your route to take on water more often; making more repairs once you''re out there vs. before you leave, and so on). Understand that the Pardeys legitmately but overly emphasize the benefits of small boats, but have only cruised on well-found, new (initially) and custom designed small boats. Eric & Susan Hiscock sailed multiple times around the world on their "30 footer" but, if you saw it, you''d be struck by how big & strong it was (displacement, draft, storage, etc.). The same is true of the Pardeys 2 boats (I''ve seen one, pictures of the other). OTOH we have great friends who''ve sailed many years to and thru-out the South Pacific on a Vancouver 25 (another not so small ''small'' boat), so it can be done. 
4. There are some great pocket cruisers tho'' the good ones (aka: strong, thoughtfully designed for cruising; strong enough for the occasional groundings, squalls and such) are probably not in the $5-10K category but - again, with compromise - decent cruisers are out there. I''d strongly recommend considering a Swedish-built Vega 27 built by Albin Marine in the late 60''s thru the late 70''s. This full-keel light but seakindly boat is the best-sailing boat I''ve ever handled, was routinely used to cross the Atlantic since the early 70''s, and should be inexpensive these days. A delightful read - Log of the Mahina by John Neal - is still in print and has an Appendix covering in detail how John set up his used Vega for a 1.5 year cruise to the South Pacific from Washington State.

Good luck with your plans, and please understand that your goals aren''t easily reached but are certainly obtainable: read tons, get on the water, and prowl around boatyards every chance you get, asking any question you can think of. Boatyards are boatshows for the important stuff!

Jack Tyler
Aboard WHOOSH, lying Port of Spain, Trinidad (but visiting Pensacola to see his son get his Navy wings)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Dear Jack. Thank you for such a thoughtful and thorough response to my question. I am happy to say that I have made some progress. I moved to Maine, and am currently a rigger in a boat yard. I have found this to be an excellent way to bridge the gap I was experiencing at the time of my posting. You are right: it is easy to find people to sail with around boat yards and yacht clubs. I now regularly sail 30+ ft. boats a couple of times a week, 1/2 cruising and 1/2 racing. I have actually decided to hold off until the fall to purchase a boat, and am looking for sturdy roomy cruisers in the $10K minimum to $30K maximum range. Thank you for the suggestion regarding the Vega. There is an incredible Vega 35-40 footer where I work, and its interior is like a ballroom--it is the most spacious I have seen. I will definately keep my eyes open for their designs. Another boat I have been considering in the $30K - $60K (mortgage) range is the Westsail 32. They seem like a good liveaboard until I am skilled enough for longer cruises, and from what I have read they are very seaworthy, but sluggish sailors. I am more interested in safety over speed, (although I am familiar with the faster is safer philosophy). But, after sailing my Laser and other people''s JBoats all summer, I may change my mind! Happy sailing. Thanks again for all of your comments.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jack,
Correction: The boat where I work is not a Vega; it is an Allied Mistress, called "Vela". (Not sure how I mixed it up that bad...) Anyway, I read your comments about the Westsail 32 in the other column -- very helpful. Thanks for all of the information and support.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Libby, been traveling a bit so here''s a belated follow-up...

First, congrats on the move, riggers job, and getting out on OP''s boats. Each of those decisions will, whatever else they bring, add immensely to your growing body of knowledge. Sounds like you are very much on track!

Re: the Allied boat you''re looking at, if it''s 36'' it''s a Allied Princess. (If it''s a Misress, it''s a 39'' footer). This is quite a nice cruising boat and I''ve seen many fixed up ''to the nines'', both in ketch & cutter configuration. Draft is a bit shallow for windward work but she''s stoutly built and comfy. Using the aft-oriented wheel is an acquired taste <g> and note how you feel about the worm gear steering, as it may not have enough sensitivity for your tastes.

Just to recap, W32''s have a devoted, loyal following and we continue to come across them out in the Caribbean, sometimes fixed up elegantly and sometimes trudging along despite being terribly ignored by their owners. Some of us just don''t ''get it'', sitting in a small cockpit with no comfy coaming to lean against, letting the deck wash sweep under your buns while holding onto a big thick tiller connected to an unbalanced (ugh...pull harder!) rudder. Others revel in the security of a heavily built cruiser that''s taken many a neophyte offshore to foreign lands, that looks ''like it should'', and has that pointy stern that''s truly the only proper shape aboard a cruising boat. I guess everyone''s right, in that debate. <g>

Glad to hear you''re considering increasing your planned expense, since I honestly doubt you can''t leave the dock on a well-provisioned, freshly prepared (by you or the previous owner) cruising boat - even a small one - without spending multiple times the $10K figure you originally mentioned. Tho'' no doubt there are folks out there that have somehow managed it...

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Libby:
I''m selling a boat for about that price. Me and my wife sailed from San Francisco to Charleston through the Panama Canal over the course of two years on a Westerly Centaur, 26 feet. Feel free to email me [email protected]


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Libby, look for one of the smaller Bayfield yachts as a possiblity for yourself. The Bayfield line was designed by Ted Gozzard whose speciality is/was short handed cruising boats. The yard built 26-28 footers up unil 1987 or so. There is a bayfield discussion group on the Sailnet lists that is very active. 

Another strong small boat is the Northsea 26. These boats are trailerable but are very capable cruisers. I know of several that have been single handed across the Atlantic.

Good luck!
Ken & Sue aboard Fe Ciega


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Libby
Try http://www.goodoldboat.com
They have excellent articles on older boats all fairly cheap.
For a small Boat I would advise a Flicka or a Yarmouth 23, this is based on me just loving the little craft. A they have alot of room.
Although Alburgs and Tartans are good also.
I know where there is a 35 ft Westphal center cockpit {older} with all gear that has fore and aft cabin. Its in bad need of paint but older couple needs to sell it due to health reasons. Is in water but un used in about 3 yrs.. cost I think around $5000
Ive been in the boat as of late and it would be a great liveaboard, with TLC.
And the boat is capable of Blue Water in the right hands.
IronWind


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The Westphal sounds interesting. How might I contact the owner? Where is it located? Thank you for the tips.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2001)

Westphals are open boats and are not liveaboard pocket cruisers and in fact are not even cruisers.
Jeff


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2001)

That will teach me to respond to the "Messages since last visit". I assumed the discussion was of the Westphal 32 One design. Sorry folks.
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Jack. Well I took your advice and am strongly considering buying a Vega 27. I have made an offer and we are in negotiations. This one has been dry docked for about 15 years, but appears to be in good condition, as it was kept covered. It has a new diesel, but I would have to complete the installation. I also need to install a holding tank. One reservation is the lack of headroom forward of the main bulkhead, as it would be cramped for living aboard, but it is the first boat I have looked at that I really want to SAIL. Guess that''s what they are for, after all. 
You mentioned they routinely did transatlantic crossings. Do you know of any circumnavigations? Are they designed to be offshore / bluewater cruisers? Should I have a lot of confidence in it''s seaworthiness? What boat might be a good comparison? I know the Tartan 27 is much heavier and keel/centerboard, but how would the 2 compare as far as coastal - blue water cruising ability?
Any further suggestions are most welcome from everyone. I am really grateful for the network of support that this message board has provided. Thanks for everyone''s feedback. Happy sailing, -Jen/"Libby"


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2001)

Actually, with a PHRF rating of 234 the Tartan 27 would be noticeably faster than the Vega at 246. The keel/cb on the Tartan would result in better upwind performance and raised would result in better performance as well. The centerboard can be adjusted to balance the helm under way as well reducing weather helm. 

While the Vegas have a strong cult following they have never had any great appeal to me. I have never actually seen an article or heard of one doing either a transatlantic or a circumnaviagtion voyage but that does not mean it did not happen...it just means I haven''t heard of it.

Jeff


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## whistler (Nov 4, 2001)

Hi: There is so much to do and so little time. I am a great lakes cruiser and have just purchased an old Ericson 39. She has just returned from 4 years in the carribean and has a lot of goodies on board. My question is where does one start to organize a piece-meal trip south to Bahamas. I want to spend about 4 months a year down in the south (winter). Does anyone know where I can get information on Erie Barge Canal - Hudson River and charts to go outside down to the Chesepeake. Is this a good summertime venture? How long would it take to go from Annapolis to Florida? You see -so many questions and so little time.

Thanks


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I''m looking for information on Jay Benford Dories esp. the 34 and 37.5 junk rigged sailing dories. The only two I can find are Moondancer and Badger. Anybody know where these boats may be located? Generally I''m looking at junk rigged boats. Any info. would be nice to receive. Thanks

Norm T.


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## knightsix (Oct 31, 2005)

*Sailing in General*

Libby - I don't know what your sailing experience is, so I'm just sharing information - not trying to tell you what to do. I've owned and sailed three sailboats (SB) in the San Francisco bay and local areas over the years (one with tiller, two with wheel steering - up to 35'). The only action I ever took was to buy "Sailing for Dummies" to learn sailboat nomenclature and how to sail. As an owner of your own boat - you're the Captain and are not required to take lessons from anyone. Having said that - I've owned a number of power boats in past and any SB with a motor is a powerboat first - so nothing new to learn there except handling characteristics while motoring. I'm extremely independent and after watching others take lessons (at schools for + $1,500 a pop) I felt I could do as well on my own. Frankly, there is absolutely no substitute for hands-on experience. I tore my mailsail twice putting it up full in too-heavy air - BUT - I learned how to remove it from the mast, have it repaired, and put back on again without assistance (and double check wind speed forecasts in future). In SF, repair shops are pretty inexpensive if you bring the sail in yourself - which should hold true just about anywhere. That's the only real problem I ever encountered. Well, there was that time the gib halyard broke, and I had to go forward while underway and haul the gib down by hand and stuff it in the forward hatch - but that was a learning experience as well. Study the rules of the road and you're on your way. I would encourage you to go online and start reading "Latitude38" (latitude38.com). It's the premier magazie (free) for sailing world-wide. It has a planet-wide following and is an absolute hoot to read the 'Letters' section as there are no holds (or opinions) barred there. Tons of practical tips and good bargins on used items. Best advice - watch other SB's and talk to other SB owners - never be shy to ask questions. Best tip on doing things to your boat? - Walk around the marina and see what others have already done to theirs - pick up a lot of pointers that way. Another item - have your boat "Coast Guard Documented" rather than register it thru the state (you can download the info and application). If you plan to cruise outside the U.S. - other countries view the CG Doc as a better indicator than a state issued number - and you don't have to buy or paint numbers / alphas on the bow. You'll be issued a "running" letter from the CG and keep that onboard. After years of manhandling 35' boats (9,000lbs +) - I've decided I no longer need to entertain parties of 7 or more people, and I'm shopping for a pocket cruiser myself - I've found a nice 24' that I like a lot. The reasons: Trailerable (store on the hard - not in the water), NO: inboard motor, filters, oil changes, repair and maintence, transmission, prop, prop shaft, stuffing box, zincs, generators, starter motors and batteries, constant bottom cleaning, and that's just my short list. Most marinas in CA have storage for your boat with free crane (work it yourself) or ramp launch, with free rinse for the boat and OB motor + free use of all of their facilities. There are any number of excellent coastal sailing references published by those who sailed the water before you. Ensure you always carry applicable charts for the area you're sailing and you should be OK. If you haven't done so, you might want to consider an inexpensive navigation lesson - but I'll bet there are any number of SB owners in any marina that would be willing to teach you for nothing more than an exchange of good conversation. Now I'll shut up and you can go sailing !! John


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Knightsix-

There a very good chance that Libby won't be replying, since the thread is *SEVEN YEARS OLD*. More likely than not, most of the people in the thread either have boats now or are no longer sailing. Please check the dates on a thread before replying. And please read this *post* to get the most out of your time on sailnet.


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