# Catalina 27 - how hard to maintain?



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I've posted other topics about my shopping for my first "real" sailboat. Although we have all winter to find a boat, at the moment we have two favorites that we like enough to consider moving quickly on. One of the key differences is the apparent maintenance requirements for the two.

First, to recap our situation:


Where to sail: Delaware River between Philadelphia and Wilmington for at least the first year. If we don't like that location, we could consider relocating it to Rock Hall (if we get the larger boat) or Lake Wallenpaupack (if we get the smaller boat)
Type of sailing: 90% daysailing, maybe an occasional overnight. We might grow into inland cruising if the boat accommodated it, but not at all sure our personal situation would allow it
How many in the boat: Usually just me and my wife. Don't anticipate any singlehanding unless someone gets sick. 13 y.o. son may be with us sometimes. 20 y.o. son wants to take his friends out on it (yeah, sure!) We might take other couples on it occasionally, so typically less than 6 for daysails, and 3 on the occasional overnight.
Sailing experience: 10 years with a Phantom, 20 years with a Trophy outboard motorboat, grew up on powerboats in the Chesapeake/Potomac. Almost no sloop experience (rented a sloop-rigged Hobie about 20 years ago)
The two boats that we have our eyes on right now are:


1997 Catalina 250 - broker asking $14k but says he has room to negotiate because it's a trade. Haven't tested him yet to see how low - prefer to decide which boat we really want, then worry about price. Very simple boat, no through-hull fittings under the waterline, Porta Potti, Honda outboard (pull start, no remote controls), no shore power, rudimentary electronics. Nice open cabin, very roomy aft berth and adequate V-berth would make this OK for overnights unless the cabin is unbearably hot. Walk-through transom and aft corner seats look like they could be a lot of fun. This boat appears to be very low maintenance - no exterior teak, dry bilge, and I'm familiar with outboards so I am comfortable working with them. However, lack of remote controls and need to climb on cabin bulkhead (with no handrails) to reach the bow could make docking maneuvers tricky in the Delaware River currents.
Catalina 27 - private sale, mid-80s vintage, well under $10k. We visited this boat today and got a motored test drive. Condition looks outstanding - the owner has used it regularly and really worked over every detail (new sails, rebuilt pedestal, throttle/shift controls, and masthead, new toilet, etc. etc.). Diesel engine ran great. Bilge was dry. Newly replaced keel bolts and faired the hull at the seam (could this be a red flag for something?) He showed me a survey from 2008 that looked excellent for a boat of this age - but it was not sail tested nor hauled out for bottom check. (If I decided to make an offer I would hire my own surveyor.) At this point, this boat looks to be a great bargain as far as initial investment, selling for 1/2 what brokers are asking for similar vintage/condition
So my question is this: As I was talking to this guy about all the things he had done to improve/maintain the boat, I grew concerned that I would not be able to spend as much time tinkering as he had. I want to sail. I do accept that I must do maintenance and/or hire some of it out, but I don't want to end up hating the boat because of the drudgery of keeping it up.

The biggest unknown for me is maintenance of the more complex systems in the C27, especially of the diesel engine. I have no experience with diesels, and no experience with inboards of any type and the transmissions, packing boxes, shaft alignment, winterization, etc. that go along with them. For those of you who have similar boats, what am I in for? (I am an engineer, so I do have some mechanical skills - just not infinite time to practice my skills on the boat.) On the surface, the C250 looks to be much lower maintenance, but also much less boat as well. The "cost per pound" is much higher on the C250 - but it is also a much newer boat, so with proper maintenance its expected lifetime could be longer.

Also, I am not sure of this but I think that by 1997 most boat builders had switched to vinyl ester resins which are less prone to osmotic blistering, so hull durability may be better for the C250 than for the C27. Can anyone confirm this?

Any comments you can offer to refute (or confirm) my fears over this would be greatly appreciated!


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## soulfinger (Aug 21, 2008)

I wouldn't sweat the diesel vs. the outboard too much. Having owned both, I think the diesel actually might be easier to maintain, especially these days. All the ethanol in the gasoline is hell on outboards. You don't have that problem with a diesel.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I own a CS27 with a Yanmar YSE8 diesel - my 4th boat with a diesel. Easy to maintain - I'm not a fan of outboards. The 27 sounds like the better boat possibly. If it hasn't blistered yet it probably won't in my opinion. It is probably better equipped. As to maintenance differences, almost same length so winter storage, moorage, and bottom paint costs should be similar. Through hulls aren't a problem - the 27 has a few more - if the 250 has a galley sink there should be one for the outlet I think. The 27 will be the better sailer I think as well.
Brian


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Should have added that the stuffing box will have to be repacked every few years but it's not hard to do. Transmission is no problem usually. Excellent owner's site for Catalina 27 as well. I'd trade outboard maintenance for diesel any day. See the two maintenance links I posted below.
Brian
Changing A Raw Water Pump Impeller Photo Gallery by Compass Marine at pbase.com
Re-Packing A Traditional Stuffing Box Photo Gallery by Compass Marine at pbase.com


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## swimnfit (Dec 2, 2008)

I have the opportunity to sail both, the C250 and a late 80's C27. At first appearance the 250 seems like an impressive boat and has more modern lines... and yes, less teak. The C27 lines are definitely older and teak is apparent. More importantly if you look at the rigging of both boats, the C250 spars are, in my opinion considerably lighter, whereas the 27 has a very sturdy look about her mast and boom. There is also a large amount of freeboard on the 250 making it more prone to wind influence on the hull. At the marina where we rent these two boats, the C250 is affectionately named "Tubby". After sailing her and sailing the C27.... "Ariel" the C250.. "Tubby" is very appropriately named. The C27 is a fine sailing boat and also very sought after especially with a well kept diesel.  Check out the link provided to the Catalina 27/270 website. I'm certain the folks there can also give you some great insight on the two boats. Happy Hunting!! 
IC27/270A Website


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

C27 is a great boat! Outboards, although many smaller sailboats have them will cavitate when in choppy water or if you go forward say, drop the jib or pick up a mooring. I think you would feel "safer" with 27 on upper Delaware bay when you get down around Wilmington. I agree with the others on Diesels, I never had one and love my old universal 5416.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Diesal vs Gas....diesal is much safer in terms of explosiveness. Prop in the water will power the boat better than one which will be affected by wakes and waves.

No comparison from the C25 to the C27. 27 can handle more weather. Better amenities and more comfortable to sail as well as stay over on.


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## merc2dogs (Jun 5, 2004)

Also, I wouldn't worry about the time spent tinkering on the boat. 
I spend an extremely large amount of time working on the boat (bike/car/garage/whatever) not because it needs it, but because I like to.

Had a project mustang. In 15 years it had been 6 different colors, had three different engines, 4 transmissions, three completely different interiors, and several different axles. It was perfectly functional a week after I picked it up, I just enjoyed working on it. I did manage to get 28mpg highway with a 375 horse 351w V8 by playing with gearing and tire size, only 12 city though. Was awesome, could beat most street cars I ran against, do block long burn outs, then cruise all day on $10.

Ken.


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## gr8trn (Dec 10, 2008)

go bigger and cheaper and go sailing, Catalina 27 does not need that much more maint. than a chubby 25. You will have a 32-33 footer next I think.
Greg


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

27 rocks. It'll take no more work than any other older sailboat - and it's way groovier than "Stumpy".


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks for all your advice. The C250 that I was considering sold over the weekend. No regrets - I had decided that we definitely want a 27 or 28 footer.

After reflecting on the C27, I have a couple of specific "red flag" issues that I would appreciate your advice on. They are the main sticking points preventing me from making an offer at this point.


The head has been modified in a less-than-ideal way. The C27's head is forward of the saloon on the starboard side, and forms the aft starboard wall of the v-berth. One of the prior owners was apparently very overweight, and could not fit into the head easily. So he removed the head door and trimmed the forward bulkhead back significantly. This creates two big problems - anyone who sleeps in the v-berth had his head in the head  , and the loss of part of the bulkhead might compromise the structure, though I doubt in a major way. Do any of you have comments on creative ways to fix these problems? Would hanging track curtains (like used in hospitals) work to create privacy? (Though they would not eliminate any odor problems.) With thousands of C27's out there, is there any chance I might find a surplus wall and door to replace this one?

I asked about spider cracks and other issues. The owner took me to the bow and I saw one in on the cabin bulkhead, and one midships on the port side that had been poorly repaired with a line of gelcoat that had actually developed another hairline crack in the repair. He said there had been another similar repair done by a previous owner that looked awful, so he applied some rubber textured mat (I forgot the brand name) to the anchor door and the non-skid areas directly behind it. Like all of the things this guy had done to the boat, his workmanship was first rate and the mats looked great. They were perfectly trimmed to match the original non-skid areas, grey color matched perfectly, and very strongly adhered to the deck to create an apparently solid seal. Only question is whether the mats sealed water out or sealed it in. Is a surveyor's moisture meter able to detect water under a 1/8" thick rubber mat like this?

If anyone can provide advice on the above items I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm trying to determine whether these items are insurmountable "deal breakers" or just the normal compromises with purchasing a bargain-priced boat of this age. At under $10k, the boat seems to be a great bargain, especially compared to the much newer and pricier C28 that we're considering on another thread.

Thanks,

Rick


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

It makes no sense to me to buy something this common with bulkheads hacked up UNLESS you feel you can do a good DIY repiar 

The real RED flag on the older C27s is the plywood keel sump which can be repaired BUT may not have been and the other issue is a lot of these older boats have raw water cooled motors which is a big issue compared to a freshwater cooled motor (heat exchanger)

I walked away from a 1981 "bargin" C30 with the same issue becasue it had been ignored so long the keel bolts were junk and it had a raw water diesel


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

tommays said:


> It makes no sense to me to buy something this common with bulkheads hacked up UNLESS you feel you can do a good DIY repiar
> 
> The real RED flag on the older C27s is the plywood keel sump which can be repaired BUT may not have been and the other issue is a lot of these older boats have raw water cooled motors which is a big issue compared to a freshwater cooled motor (heat exchanger)
> 
> I walked away from a 1981 "bargin" C30 with the same issue becasue it had been ignored so long the keel bolts were junk and it had a raw water diesel


On this particular boat, he has replaced the keel bolts and refaired the keel-hull joint within the last couple of years. I did not ask whether he removed the plywood and filled with epoxy - I will ask if I decide to proceed. He seems like a guy who does his homework, so I would expect that he did the repair properly (i.e., removed the plywood), but I do need to ask.

The motor is freshwater cooled.

It is a real shame about the head modification. On the positive side, the bulkhead that was reduced is not the one with chainplate mounts - those mount to the aft wall of the head - and the corresponding closet wall on the port side.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

RhythmDoctor said:


> It is a real shame about the head modification. On the positive side, the bulkhead that was reduced is not the one with chainplate mounts - those mount to the aft wall of the head - and the corresponding closet wall on the port side.


I guess it comes down to a two part question: Can you live with the head modification? If not are you comfortable enough with your wood working skills to replace the bulkhead?

If you move forward PM me and I can let you know where to get a good prices locally on marine plywood and mahogany. I can also give you the name of a good local surveyor who doesn't turn their nose up at boats in this price range.

Jim


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## Boatsmith (May 3, 2009)

If it was my choice I'd go for the Cat 27. Much better boat. Diesel is much nicer to live with than outboard IMO. Very good owners support with C27. They only quit making them because they were so successful. It became too difficult to sell new ones with so many available on the resell market. Due not to being a dog but because they were so good that they sold many, many. IMO one of the best small boat bargains around. David


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RhythmDoctor said:


> On this particular boat, he has replaced the keel bolts and refaired the keel-hull joint within the last couple of years. I did not ask whether he removed the plywood and filled with epoxy - I will ask if I decide to proceed. He seems like a guy who does his homework, so I would expect that he did the repair properly (i.e., removed the plywood), but I do need to ask.
> 
> The motor is freshwater cooled.
> 
> It is a real shame about the head modification. On the positive side, the bulkhead that was reduced is not the one with chainplate mounts - those mount to the aft wall of the head - and the corresponding closet wall on the port side.


I know exactly where you're talking about since I have one...and that really sucks. Are you saying that he essentially sawzalled a "window" in that v-berth bulkhead? I don't know how that particular piece fits within the structural design of the boat, but do you think you could square it and brace/fill it instead of completely replacing it?

Since the major load bearing happens in that aft bulkhead between the head and the galley (where the compression post is), it seems like it might be salvageable. But I'd definitely want to find out for sure from someone who knows.

Jeez - people sure can dream up some crazy modifications.

BTW - you should see the bubble machine I installed using my thru-hulls. Very cool.

PS - Is it just mine, or do all C27s point like a mofo?


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> PS - Is it just mine, or do all C27s point like a mofo?


None of them will point when you running a 150% to 170% headsail. Smack get a 120% or a 110% on that boat and Asymmetrical. She will point and you also have a light air sail. I don't why you Catalina owners think the bigger headsail sail the better.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

No - I actually meant that my boat DOES point really, really well. You're right, the 150 isn't as good as the 110 was - but it is pretty amazing.

I've also noticed that she seems much stiffer than many other boats. We'll be beating hard with several boats on their ear - and we stay upright pretty well. Not so good when you want a wet rail - but it's been pretty cool to see.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

A C27 is a good all around boat. I sailed a few others peoples and I have like the boat. They aways seemed to running a head sail larger than I would have liked, but thats just me.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

The Catalina's sail better than some would give them credit for, and their customer service is top notch -- even if you have an older boat. 

Jim


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## waderogers (Jul 20, 2010)

*Catalina 27 head and vee berth modifications*

I too have removed the 'bulkhead' that was attached to the vee berth and as far as I can tell, it doesn't serve much of a structural purpose...or does it? I've not gotten rid of the wood yet in case I really do need to put it back in but it sure opens the vee berth up and I'm thinking about putting a removable shelf above the head that'll have a foam cushion on it so the vee berth is actually useful for sleeping.
I've yet to see on this thread anyone say whether the 'bulkhead' forward of the head that's attached to the vee berth is really necessary and if it is, suggest a suitable work-around. Any ideas???
Wade


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