# Request for Comments: DIY Tether



## FourthCoast (Oct 14, 2013)

Hello,

After reading too many stories about a long (6') tether doing more hard than good on sailboats I decided that I needed something that will keep me on deck and not just attached to the boat.

This decision was followed immediately by sticker shock while looking for a commercial tether and then the realization that even that expensive tether was too long to keep me on my small 23' boat deck. 3 feet is too much.

So I came up with the rig shown in the attached photos. The harness is an inexpensive one and has crotch straps (not shown) that I can attach.

I tried to address the following issues. Please let me know if you think I am building something safe or something dangerous 

1. 'Normal' carabiner-style spring clips can be twisted around and unexpectedly disengage from pad-eyes. The 'double action' clips are EXPENSIVE: I used a stainless steel clip with a locking gate that must be manually locked. As long as I remember to screw down the lock there is no way this is going to come off unexpectedly. Must less expensive.

2. Emergency quick release. I had a snap shackle from unused spinnaker rigging. I added a little lanyard to make the pull easier. I have tried supporting my weight from the tether and a good hard pull will release this shackle. I feel good about it holding when I need it and releasing when I need it. The big knot on the lanyard should be easy to find and pull by feel if I cannot see.

3. Three feet is too long and multiple lengths are needed.
- I have a lineman's loop connecting the snap shackle to the nylon line. This knot should take pull in all three directions without jamming and without working loose when not loaded.
- The carabiner is attached to the nylon line with a cow hitch. I think this is OK, but I am a little worried about the sharp bend right at the eye splice.
- Between these two attachments I have a loop formed using a rolling hitch. Since the lineman's loop is on the load-bearing end of the hitch I am able to adjust the whole thing down to just under two feet or extend it out to almost 3 feet. I might move the linemans loop closer to the rolling hitch so that I can pull the tether in VERY close for clipping on to the mast or other close work.

Since I will be using either a very short adjustment OR I will be attached to jacklines I feel alright with not having the shock absorbing properties of a 'real' tether. I think if I am held very tight at a hard point it will work more like a seat-belt and having it rigid is OK. If I am attached to the jack lines, they should provide enough 'give' as they tensions between the two hard points to avoid a really hard stop.

All in all I have to think this is better than nothing and better than a long tether.

Anyone want to talk me out of using this setup?

Scott.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I like it...

on the boat I went most of the way around we used homemade tethers for much the same reasons...

they were cruder than yours btw...

the tethers had one leg loop and the other went over your torso...it was a bit awakward but prevented the whole squeeze one part of your body till death scenario which some tether do...especially the ones that squeeze your shoulders together.

one thing I would add is that next time around or whenever I go cruising again Ill make a tether with two attachment points with carabiners...in other words for cockpit use while sitting on watch one length...

while on deck and moving around a bit longer length...

on our last boat we found the ideal length around if I remember 4-5 feet...enough to stand while strapped to the jacklines or to have some mobility without snapping on and off all the time which is a nuissance

the reason commercial tethers are so long is simply the design of the boats and the size...

on sailboats most you need it close and tight

congrats on the work...looks good


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## FourthCoast (Oct 14, 2013)

Thanks for the response!

I would really like to know if you were ever really happy that you were clipped in. That is -- did you have a good fall where the thing kept you on deck without any serious injuries?

Scott.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

This thread includes a ton of great information backed up by testing on how to make tethers:
Rope/knot/splice load testing - Gear Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

Some of it is summarized on here:
Load testing

I don't like the caribeiner that you've used. It is going to be a lot of hassle to screw down the lock every time you clip in and out.

What are you using as your tether line? There is good information on the summary page on why to consider 7.7mm dynamic line (from climbing) and knots that work well in it.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

plenty of slips that got the tether taught..but not over the rails...so I guess I was lucky

but yeah for sure anytime offhsore we tethered in...100 percent of the time at night on watches

during the day we always had a lookout and were fishing or doing projects etc so we werent tethered in all the time...of course when the weather got rough

but that depends who your are cruising with or what the "rules" are for said boat

my comment on design was based on experiences I had the pleasure of hearing about while cruising

some tether would slip, some would squeeze you to death and some were simply so cumbersome it made being tethered a nuissance

by all means if you arent comfortable while walking around or doing stuff with the tether redesign it

a bad tether is worse than no tether in my opinion but opinions vary on this jajaja

cheers


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

oh x2 on the carabiner comment...some carabinners(climbing ones) have spring loaded knobs so you can keep it pseudo attached however the preferred is the classic spring loaded lever one.

you have to be able to quick release a tether on the fly...its a must...so dont lock yourself in for sure...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm a rock climber and I don't like the crazy expensive marine prices either for manufactured tethers. When sport climbing, I'll take FREE falls of up to 15'-20'. I certainly NEVER expect to do the same on a sailboat. So I completely trust my own home-made tethers of various lengths which use 1" webbing, locking D-biner, and snap shackle to keep me on the boat.

Your set up looks okay to me in this regard. The snap-shackle seems a bit small as does the pull lanyard - but maybe that's just the photo. I also agree with you about the cow hitch being a little squirrelly. And I don't like the extra line hanging around from the knot.

At the end of the day, the job of the thing is to hold you on the boat if you slip, get hit by a wave, etc. That doesn't take a lot of sophisticated technology really. I've been on the bow in some pretty sporty seas and was VERY happy to be clipped in. We ALWAYS clip on when off-shore.


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## FourthCoast (Oct 14, 2013)

Thanks smackdaddy,

I will consider getting a bigger snap shackle. Do you have a suggestion for WLW on the shackle and how long the pull lanyand should be?

I tried to make it so that I could grab easily but not so long that it would get snagged on something and release unexpectedly.

I have always planned to trim and whip the tail coming off the hitch after I am 100% settled on the length.

I think I will put the eye splice directly in the carabiner and the whip the eye so it does not move too much. I think the bury on the splice is too big for the setup as it is with the cow hitch.

Thanks for the feedback!

Scott.


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## bristol299bob (Apr 13, 2011)

I like it.

Interesting feature, the adjustable length. I wonder if that will prove more of a burden or an invaluable aspect of it. 

I've recently gone to using dedicated tethers at "work stations". I have a short tether at the mast (about chest height) and another at the bow. In addition to the jacklines along the side of the boat and hard points in the cockpit. 

for example if I need to get to the mast I clip into the jackline ... walk up to the mast and clip into the shorter mast tether when I get there. The mast tether keeps me very secure and close.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Another idea is to go to a place like Northern Tools. They carry tethers and harnesses for people working outside in dangerous places. They don't have the word "marine" anywhere which makes them much cheaper.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

bristol299bob said:


> I've recently gone to using dedicated tethers at "work stations". I have a short tether at the mast (about chest height) and another at the bow. In addition to the jacklines along the side of the boat and hard points in the cockpit.
> 
> for example if I need to get to the mast I clip into the jackline ... walk up to the mast and clip into the shorter mast tether when I get there. The mast tether keeps me very secure and close.


For boats under 30-35 feet, that approach is the best way to go...

For a boat the size of the OP's, it's the ONLY way to go...;-)


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## FourthCoast (Oct 14, 2013)

OK OK OK I get it!

I should have several tethers to move between and use in combination. I will look into setting that up.

That is a good idea. 

Scott.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Group9 said:


> Another idea is to go to a place like Northern Tools. They carry tethers and harnesses for people working outside in dangerous places. They don't have the word "marine" anywhere which makes them much cheaper.


The only tether listed at Northern Tools is for holding tools and is rated to 10lbs. I hope no one is using this to support their body weight on the boat.

They list other ones as lanyards, but I don't see any which can be released under load. That is a critical safety component for a tether used on the boat. You need to be able to get free if you are being pulled under water by the tether. They are also made with regular steel instead of stainless and likely won't last long in the marine environment.

It is good to look for alternatives, but make sure that you are making fair comparisons.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Group,

They also don't use stainless.

As all the testing has shown, and way to many dead people have proven. The absolutely most critical part of a harness is actually to be able to undo it easily when you need to. This needs to be at your chest, and it needs to be foolproof.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

All the harnesses made for construction jobs (and wind turbines) have leg straps, yet harnesses for sailing do not. Are leg straps important? And how does that affect release ability? 
Also, JohnE are you saying to have a tether at the mast and other work stations in addition to the one clipping you to the jack lines?
John


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

the tethers we used had leg straps...I liked them...they were homemade and quite strong

in essence having a leg strap avoids any possibilty of the tether slippung, also the squeeze sydnrome

yes its a bit crotch invasive but hey

no issues for many many offshore miles


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

On a small boat it's especially tricky because you're so close to the edge that even a short tether could put you over the side just from the stretch of your jackline. So dedicated short tethers at key points are a good thing. I only clip in once a year or so, when singlehanding. I sail in pretty protected flat water, so singlehanding is my only real need to clip in.

Like someone else mentioned, a short tether at chest height at the mast protects you at a critical location where you're likely to need to do work. And you don't need a long one there, so it's very safe. Remember that short tether gives you less distance to accelerate in a fall, so less likelihood of breaking a rib, back, or neck.

I also rig a short tether around the base of my steering pedestal that I clip into while steering.

The short tether consists of braided rope with a snap shackle at the end. I have a few of these of various sizes that I use:










I also run a jackline from the bow, past my mast, to the cockpit. I clip into that with a 3'-6' dual leg tether when I have to move between the other tethers. I use the shortest leg whenever possible, and crawl on the cabin top if it enables me using the shorter leg. It's a small boat so I never have to crawl far.

I once had to drop my mainsail while hobby-horsing in 4' square chop, and without the tether at the mast I would have been in very bad shape.

Going all the way to the bow presents its own challenges because it's so narrow. I've never had to do that when singlehanding thanks to a reliable furler. But if I did, I would clip my tether onto the jackline and ALSO clip on a spare jib halyard at standing height (with one of those snap shackles). That way, if I went over the side, the jib jalyard would keep me above the rubrail of the boat so I could get back on. Like I said, I've never had to do this, so I'll invite everyone here to tell me why that's a bad idea.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Alex W said:


> The only tether listed at Northern Tools is for holding tools and is rated to 10lbs. I hope no one is using this to support their body weight on the boat.
> 
> They list other ones as lanyards, but I don't see any which can be released under load. That is a critical safety component for a tether used on the boat. You need to be able to get free if you are being pulled under water by the tether. They are also made with regular steel instead of stainless and likely won't last long in the marine environment.
> 
> It is good to look for alternatives, but make sure that you are making fair comparisons.


This one? Rated for 5000 pounds tensile strength? And, "meets or exceeds all OSHA regulations and ANSI standards"? What standards does yours meet? If it's like the one I have from West, probably none, right?

FallTech Shock Absorbing Lanyard, Model# A8259 | Lanyards| Northern Tool + Equipment

I'll give you a search hint. Look under "safety gear" not "tools".

And, a fair comparison, would be to be looking at harnesses for people, not tools. I think most people can tell the difference between those.

I didn't look in the catalog. I saw them at the store. They look a lot sturdier than my West Marine harness and tether. I'm sure falling off scaffolding puts as much shock load on a harness as falling into the water.

There are always alternatives. We used to use tethers we called "gunner's belts" ,when I used to fly a lot of helo operations, that looked like tow straps for cars. I never heard of one breaking. Rated is rated.

And, as far as getting free, I hope you don't sail without a sharp knife on you all of the time. If you don't do that, you need to start doing that. I carry a Kershaw assisted open model, with a clip on it.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

A few thoughts. I've done drop tests, climbed for 35 years, and looked into the engineering a good bit. A lot of good advise by other posters that I won't repeat.

1. Skip the larks head on the biners. That can slip up over the gate, forcing it open. It reduces the rated strength of the biner ~ 20%. You don't need it.

2. With lengths under 3' shock absorption comes mostly from shifting of the harness and body tissues. You should be fine. At 6' stretch is very important and over 6 feet it is vital. But ONLY when clipped to hard points; when on the jackline the absorption is there.

3. I hate those "marine" biners with the pointy little triangles in the gate. They cut fingers and snag on line. They are useless and I would return them. The Kong Tango ($19) is very nice and is going on many high end tethers. Also locking climbing aluminum biners hold up well if you grease the threads twice per season; very light and very appropriate to smaller boats. Cheap, because the production volume is perhaps 100x greater.










4. Leave enough space in the quick release shackle loop so that you can clip the unused leg there. If you clip it to your harness... no more quick release. Do NOT whip the eye. New tethers are adopting this feature or some related mechanism (a coming requirement).

5. Use knots. You're not looking at the loads where the difference matters.

You're smart going with short legs. The specific answers depend on the boat. I have a catamaran and use 2' x 8' legs (narrow side decks with chest-high jackline and wide beam forward).


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ccriders said:


> Also, JohnE are you saying to have a tether at the mast and other work stations in addition to the one clipping you to the jack lines?
> John


I have a set of Amsteel jacklines rigged whenever I sail in the ocean, but I virtually never use them. I rely on a system of 5 different fixed tethers made from climbing rope, and using Wichard double-action hooks, instead...

2 are fixed at the base of the mast, include snubbers, just long enough to reach into the cockpit. These are clipped on when going forward or to the mast. A clest-high cleat at the mast allows them to be shortened up easily, and allow for very secure hands-free working at the mast...

A foredeck tether is secured at the base of the inner forestay, and is led back to the base of the mast. It allows movement all the way to the stem, or the ability to be double tethered when on the foredeck...

2 relatively short tethers are fixed in the cockpit. One (or more if there are additional crew in the cockpit) at the foot of the companionway that is clipped on when coming up from below, long enough to work the cockpit and winches.. Another one is stationed further aft, just long enough for me to reach the windwane to make a course adjustment...

Despite all this, I'm still pretty 'casual' about my use of tethers. I'm not a Tether or PFD Nazi, by any means  I often go forward without clipping on, and as a rule only use them whenever the thought occurs to me that it might be a Good Idea  I think staying on a boat has far more to to with your mindset and situational awareness anyway, than what sort of gear one uses...

I really think the fixed tether setup works best, at least on smaller boats. It has one drawback, however, that some may not like. It pretty much commits you to using a double-action hook at your harness, where some prefer to have a quick-release snap shackle, instead...

Here's where I'm probably in the minority, and differ from the more conventional approach. I would NEVER use a snap shackle at the inboard/harness end of my tether. As one who often sails singlehanded, or with a partner who happens to be a VERY sound sleeper, my priority is staying attached to the boat at all costs... In short, I'd rather be dragged to a death by drowning quickly yet remaining clipped onto the boat, rather than drowning hours after watching my boat sail out of sight


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

One hand for the ship and one for me. If I need two, I'll call a shipmate and use one of his/hers.
I realize that this is a very unpopular attitude on these forums, but I cannot, in good conscience, rely on any piece of equipment instead of myself. As I see it, these things lead to feeling overly secure and that is when mistakes occur.
In over 50 years at sea, for pleasure and professionally, I have never fallen overboard, nor has anyone, aboard any vessel I was operating. Caution trumps everything else in a dangerous situation, and overconfidence breeds a lack of caution. Sh*t does not have to happen!


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

capta said:


> One hand for the ship and one for me. If I need two, I'll call a shipmate and use one of his/hers.
> I realize that this is a very unpopular attitude on these forums, but I cannot, in good conscience, rely on any piece of equipment instead of myself. As I see it, these things lead to feeling overly secure and that is when mistakes occur.
> In over 50 years at sea, for pleasure and professionally, I have never fallen overboard, nor has anyone, aboard any vessel I was operating. Caution trumps everything else in a dangerous situation, and overconfidence breeds a lack of caution. Sh*t does not have to happen!


a. If you are single handed there isn't another hand. Or the other hand is steering, etc.

b. Why place another hand on-deck when the gear makes it safe for one man? Heck, I can't tie my shoes with one hand, so this "one hand for the ship" stuff is and has always been poetic hyperbole.

c. If you cannot rely on the boat staying afloat--that is keeping water out--then you will need to rely on swimming. Climbers and vertical access workers rely on lines everyday for their entire lives. This confidence is well-placed; if you are not comfortable with the gear either the gear is poorly installed or used, or the user doesn't understand the gear. It should never be about "feeling" or "conscience." It should be about sound engineering, training, and practice.

And this is why tethers and jacklines need to be used in moderate weather; so that the procedures are instinctive and the rigging familiar and tested. You should be getting caught up in your knitting when it's nasty. If you are, you haven't practiced or you rigging is ****. Redesign it until it flows, like any deck rigging.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

One problem with the alloy locking caribiners is that they corrode really easily. The gates will get sticky(dissimilar metal pin) and the twist down locking part gets difficult to move.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Climbing shops have a very nice 1 inch tube tape thats very nice and sift for thethers. I have two on mine, one short and one long... And no stupid locking clips. If its a pain in the butt to use you wont use it so get a good caribeener that you just click here and there.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Group9 said:


> This one? Rated for 5000 pounds tensile strength? And, "meets or exceeds all OSHA regulations and ANSI standards"? What standards does yours meet? If it's like the one I have from West, probably none, right?
> 
> FallTech Shock Absorbing Lanyard, Model# A8259 | Lanyards| Northern Tool + Equipment
> 
> I'll give you a search hint. Look under "safety gear" not "tools".


That is the lanyard that Stumble, myself, and others commented on. Can't be released under load. Uses standard (not stainless) steel so it will be a rusty mess in a year. It appears to be neither safe nor practical.


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## FourthCoast (Oct 14, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Climbing shops have a very nice 1 inch tube tape thats very nice and sift for thethers. I have two on mine, one short and one long... And no stupid locking clips. If its a pain in the butt to use you wont use it so get a good caribeener that you just click here and there.


Hi Mark,

Thank you for the response. I have been thinking about heading to the climbing shop this week to look for a better double action caribeener. The more I screw and unscrew this thing the less I like it -- But it was so inexpensive!

I tried looking on google for "1 inch tube tape" but I dont really understand what I am looking for or how I would use it. Do you have a link to an example of how you use it in a tether?

Scott.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Alex W said:


> That is the lanyard that Stumble, myself, and others commented on. Can't be released under load. Uses standard (not stainless) steel so it will be a rusty mess in a year. It appears to be neither safe nor practical.


Well, if that's the one, what made you turn "5000" into "10"?

That's a little more than a little mistake.

Besides, I think we all know where to go get an expensive ass tether. This thread is about trying to find cheaper alternatives.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

The 10lb breaking limit is for the tool tether, the only item listed in their catalog as a tether. I pointed out that what they call a lanyard is what we call a tether.

Being thrifty is great. I am also often thrifty and you can find examples that I have posted in the cheap projects thread. Being so cheap that you will use a dangerous tether that can't be released under load is just stupid.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

FourthCoast said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> Thank you for the response. I have been thinking about heading to the climbing shop this week to look for a better double action caribeener. The more I screw and unscrew this thing the less I like it -- But it was so inexpensive!
> 
> ...


Also referred to as "tubular webbing" Your local REI or outdoor shop should have rolls of it. Look at how the other tethers are constructed and this will be your guide on how to sew one for your self. I also made jacklines from the same tubular webbing. Seems this material is not color fast nor UV protected so when not using take em out of the sun.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Alex W said:


> The 10lb breaking limit is for the tool tether, the only item listed in their catalog as a tether. I pointed out that what they call a lanyard is what we call a tether.
> 
> Being thrifty is great. I am also often thrifty and you can find examples that I have posted in the cheap projects thread. Being so cheap that you will use a dangerous tether that can't be released under load is just stupid.


You don't have one inch of McGyver in you, do you?

You would have liked working for the federal government, where money or cost was never any object. Some of our tethers had explosive cutaways, so somebody, somewhere, must have thought it was stupid and dangerous not to have tethers with that feature, too. But, we all still carried knives.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I have plenty of MacGyver in me. If you did even a tiny bit of research you would see that.

Adding an opens under load snap shackle and a corrosion resistant 'biner to that lanyard would bring the cost up above the cost of a marine tether. The nylon webbing isn't the expensive part, it is the two pieces of hardware attached at either end. The Northern Tools one comes with options at either end which are not useful in a marine setting.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

why are you guys overcomplicating such simple things...?

the ops harness is good, a few tweaks here and there after trial will get him where he wants to be...

in my case I would maybe add a torso loop or strap to his harness...and call it a day

if you dont like how the carabiners snaps on and off quickly and or it doesnt last replace with a better quality one

simple

testing of equipment is the best way to see what works for you...on YOUR boat...

cheers


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

JonE, TakeFive, pdq, Alex - 
Would you guys (and others with good set ups, especially on smaller boats) be able to post pix of your tethers, jacklines, and hard points (showing how attached through deck, sole, etc.? Helps us relative noobs visualize what you are talking about. Thanks in advance.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Freya, at 34' is perhaps a little bigger than what you are looking at, but I do have a couple of photos. I started out running the jack lines between the mooring cleats but things got tangled in the cockpit with two or more people changing positions. I then mounted a hard point for the helmsman and later ran a jack down the cockpit. Now everybody can clip in at the companionway and making driver changes a lot easier. The photos are of my jacks in the cockpit. (Not shown are my deck jacks.) If I had it to do over again, I would use lime green webbing as "orange" looks to much like "blue" in the dark or under red light. Note that the tether is an old Whichard one with a single action shackle - A big non-no as it has twisted open while shackled to the helmsman's pad eye.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

FourthCoast said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> Thank you for the response. I have been thinking about heading to the climbing shop this week to look for a better double action caribeener. The more I screw and unscrew this thing the less I like it -- But it was so inexpensive!
> 
> ...


It's typically called "webbing". Something like this:

Amazon.com : Tubular Webbing 1 inch x 10 yards Emerald Green, UIAA Certified, Made in USA : Sports & [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41RfAMIKbLL

Usually around 4K lbs breaking strength.

I just do an *overhand-bight knot* to make loops for the biner/shackle - then, just for good measure, I sew the tails back onto the webbing so there's no way the knot will slip. I ain't dead yet after A LOT of falls.

I have several different lengths for me and the boys. Cheap and effective.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

joebeach said:


> JonE, TakeFive, pdq, Alex -
> Would you guys (and others with good set ups, especially on smaller boats) be able to post pix of your tethers, jacklines, and hard points (showing how attached through deck, sole, etc.? Helps us relative noobs visualize what you are talking about. Thanks in advance.


Some links.

I don't worry about quick release at the harness end because cats are different; there is no scary lee bow zone, the beam is sufficient that jacklines are inboard, and in my case, I leave the tethers attached to the jackline and clip off a the harness. Thus I like the Tango at the harness (fast and secure) and screw locks on the jacklines (they stay on all day, regular grease keeps them corrosion-free, and they are lighter and slide better than any marine alternative at any price).

On cats, the great danger is generally getting thrown forward if you stuff a wave, and the wide open transom area.

Bolt hangers are a neat way to add hard points, by simply using a single existing through-bolt. SS and rated over 5000#.

Be advised that 1" webbing does NOT pass any of the sailing regs; not quite strong enough (very close). It generally stretches too much for jacklines (use polyester or spectra). But very good for smaller boats.

2' and 9', legs (wide deck--the reason I make my own). These are made from 8mm dynamic rope--the long length makes shock absorption a must. Even 8mm rope is worse under foot than webbing; for me the elasticity was worth it, cats have level decks, and rope handles better when wet, but for monohulls webbing is better). Dry-treating tethers is a nice touch.

The eyes are sew and covered. The cow hitch is whipped so that it doesn't slide.









I have 6 of these. About $5. Another advantage is that all of my climbing friends recognize bolt hangers as rated tether hard points. Because they are used with existing through-bolts, large backing plates were pre-existing (in 2 cases (bow jackline anchors) I drilled for larger bolts and enlarged the plate).









From fatal accident--no quick release, huh? Where do you park the unused tether? In this example there is no place for the Tango other than the harness ring; bad design.









Inboard jackline termination (lashing under 2" webbing UV/chafe guard). In most cases jacklines should end short of the bow, and in ALL cases they should end 6' forward of the transom. Jacklines are 1/2" rope, since they don't run on the deck and cannot be stepped on; I can leave 1/2" line rigged 24/7, always ready, no UV risk (so strong they last 5 years at spec).

(that's an anchor bridle in the foreground--unrelated.)


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Alex W said:


> I have plenty of MacGyver in me. If you did even a tiny bit of research you would see that.
> 
> Adding an opens under load snap shackle and a corrosion resistant 'biner to that lanyard would bring the cost up above the cost of a marine tether. The nylon webbing isn't the expensive part, it is the two pieces of hardware attached at either end. The Northern Tools one comes with options at either end which are not useful in a marine setting.


As was noted before, everyone can figure out an expensive way to do it. This thread is about trying to find inexpensive ways. But, thanks for reminding us again, that you can do anything with enough money. We had all forgotten that.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

For the record...
*The requirement to release under load is not a requirement in the sailing rules, it is a strong suggestion (there are situations--work station tethers--where it is not better, because they are slower to attach). 
* Locking biners are a requirement. Biners have unclipped.
* Drop testing is a requirement (tethers have broken). Pre-2001 tethers generally failed this one. 1" climbing webbing will fail. Polyester webbing will fail (no impact absorption). 100kg mass, fall factor 1 (ISO 12401). Requires special nylon webbing or dynamic rope.
* 3' option is a requirement (long tethers can be bad).
* Jacklines are 5000 pounds BS.


But honestly, for cruising boat looking for a little protection, we can cut the strength requirements 30% with complete safety. The rules were only tightened recently. I suppose it also depends on how big you are (rules don't specify--OSHA at least specifies a max in each catagory).


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

pdqaltair,

I've been following your tether research with much interest and read your blog posts on the subject a couple months ago. As a climber, your points about shock loading to the body without any dynamic elongation/absorption in the system really struck home. I'm not sure I ever would have thought of the connection myself, but it sure makes sense to me now that you have, just how dangerous standard tethers can be when hooked to a strong point (instead of a jackline).

I see you've recently switched to dynamic climbing rope. This seems like a good idea, though it seems you fret a little about using a half rope. There are some single-rated ropes now that are <9mm. Perhaps one of these is the way to go for the ultimate compromise between lack of bulk and being strong enough.

8,7mm single dry rope
8.9mm single dry rope

Anyone want to go halfsies on a coil of this stuff for DIY tethers?

MedSailor


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

^^

A. I don't fret about 1/2 rope after doing som testing and some modeling. 1/2 rope is tougher than any of the webbing used today and will pass the ISO drop test easily. Some have suggested going to twin rope, which is thinner yet, and that may be cutting it a little too thin, not in terms of toughness (still good) but ultimate strength. On the other hand, I'm not convinsed the rule is correct in having a strength requirement; I think that is only a hold-over they can't get rid of. I suspect the higher impact force caused by the strength requirement causes more harm than it solves. Also remember that most modern 1/2 ropes either will pass as single ropes or are very close. They will all survive a few single test falls, just not always 5.

B. You can buy single and half rope by the foot from Mountain Equipment Co-op ? MEC ? Shop climbing, cycling, running, yoga and more.

----

That said, rope--even small rope--is not as good underfoot on monos as webbing. SO perhaps dynamic tethers are more a multihull thing, where tethers can get long, than a monohull answer. Dynamic webbung would be neat, butI suspect the weave precludes that.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

joebeach said:


> JonE, TakeFive, pdq, Alex -
> Would you guys (and others with good set ups, especially on smaller boats) be able to post pix of your tethers, jacklines, and hard points (showing how attached through deck, sole, etc.? Helps us relative noobs visualize what you are talking about. Thanks in advance.


Here's some of my setup...

Tethers port & starboard from the base of the mast, of sufficient length to reach the cockpit...










A closer look... The rope is a Kernmantle dynamic climbing rope, to a double-action Wichard hook, the tail of the knot lock-stitched and whipped. These nice compact snubbers I found on eBay add a good measure of shock absorbtion:

Mooring Snubber Made in Sweden 1 Pair 2 Pcs 8" 3 8" 1 2" | eBay










The key to security at the mast, this track cleat adjusted to chest height. I'm not going very far, once the tether is shortened up to this point, with the additional benefit of allowing my reefing to be carried out with ease even with the boat on a good bit of heel on port tack...










My jacklines are of one continuous length of Amsteel, eyes spliced in each end, and simply shackled to the toerail about 5-6 feet forward of the transom. A bit hard to see thru the clutter, the jackline is the orange line. I like using rings on jacklines, the tethers seem to run more freely, but as I said I've virtually given up using my jacklines anyway, they're only there for an additional measure of security in the worst of conditions...










They simply run thru the bow cleats, and back to the rail on the opposite side...










A few additional comments...

Pay attention to the advice given by pdqaltair, he really knows his stuff, and was the one who got me thinking more seriously about the risk of injury from shock loading, and the need for shock absorbtion even in a relatively short 'fall'... I've never liked tubular webbing to begin with, and have come to favor climbing rope for a couple of other applications on board, as well (preventer and boom brake line, for example) There's usually a wide assortment of climbing rope to be found on eBay, I've found some great deals, and it is commonly found in high visibility colors, a good feature when put to use as safety gear...

Although I used one for years, I never really liked the double short/long tethers. The unused portion always seemed to be in the way, and often wound up getting 'stowed' around my neck - a terrible idea. They seem a classic example of needless complexity, better to go with a single longer tether, that can always be shortened up with a simple overhand or figure 8 loop...

Lastly, I'm still always ambivalent about our obsession with such safety 'GEAR' that's gonna keep us aboard  All this stuff is NOT what's gonna keep you on the boat, what's going on between your ears in any given situation is FAR more important. Sailors should be _PRACTICING_ leaving the cockpit and moving about their decks, it seems to me, and the modern trend of leading everything aft seems to be breeding sailors that appear to be reluctant or fearful of ever venturing forward, and are not particularly nimble in moving about their boats. People really need to learn to move about their decks comfortably, because some day - or, more likely some _Night_ - you will have to do so, when you least want to... There are so many other factors at play in keeping crew aboard - keeping decks clear and free of clutter of extraneous gear, for example - that never seem to be mentioned in these discussions, and our fixation on the sort of stuff we can _BUY_ to keep us _'Safe'_... 

I always tell people the one thing most likely to keep you on the boat, is to never, _EVER_ set foot out of the cockpit without convincing yourself that your lifelines are charged with 600 V of electricity, and the edge of the deck represents the edge of a 1,000 foot cliff... When others are sailing with me, I don't want to see anyone so much as _TOUCHING_ the lifelines... 

Don Street had a pretty good rule aboard IOLAIRE, regarding the notion of "one hand for the ship"... Whenever anyone had to perform a task that required both hands, if at all possible crew should have at least one - and preferably both - knees on deck...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Can someone give me a realistic scenario where you're going to load a tether on a cruising boat to a legitimate FF1?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Imagine a boat heeled over on stb tack. You clip to the port jackline and start working at the lee rail. 

Add an accidental gybe and broach and you fall from the new high side (port) all the way across the deck and snatch up hard on the tether.

In the same scenario if you were clipped to a centrally located padeye, you'd fall twice the length of your tether for a FF2.

Med

Brevity and typos are courtesy of my Samsung S4 Active.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

my number 1 rule in roughseas is to always crawl on deck...applies mostly to small boat sailing and handling but its done me well... always using the 3 point or touch system...

only 1 limb has mobility to do stuff when the crap hits the fan...

also and this is a dinghy sailor racers motto...your 5th limb is your mouth(teeth)

cheers


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

FF1

Convert fall distance intio velocity and you will find it is about 8 knots. Not too hard.

Also, knockdowns are documented to creat these forces.

So yes, FF1 is realistic. Bad, but realistic.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> FF1
> 
> Convert fall distance intio velocity and you will find it is about 8 knots. Not too hard.
> 
> ...


It's still hard for me to see a true FF1 on a sailboat (with a beam like mine of 13'-14'). There's too much stuff to hit along the way. Even a full-blown knockdown is very unlikely to give you a 6' _free fall onto a hard connector_ (e.g. - clipped into the mast you'll likely hit water before you hit the end of the tether, clipped into a jackline you won't get an FF1 situation anyway due to the give of the jackline, etc.).

I could be way off base, but the whole FF1 thing seems like serious overkill to me for specifying a sailboat tether. I _could_ see a scenario like this on a multi - but if you're in that situation where you're knocked down far enough for a free-fall, your tether is the least of your worries. In fact, it could be the worst thing possible.


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## Brewgyver (Dec 31, 2011)

Alex W said:


> That is the lanyard that Stumble, myself, and others commented on. Can't be released under load. Uses standard (not stainless) steel so it will be a rusty mess in a year. It appears to be neither safe nor practical.


Beyond the non-SS hardware and the inability to disconnect under load, this type of tether is also a problem due to its length. The shock absorption is accomplished by the web being gathered and weak-sewn. With sufficient shock, the stitching of the gathered webbing breaks, and the six foot tether becomes more like nine feet. That could be a big problem.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> It's still hard for me to see a true FF1 on a sailboat (with a beam like mine of 13'-14'). There's too much stuff to hit along the way. Even a full-blown knockdown is very unlikely to give you a 6' _free fall onto a hard connector_ (e.g. - clipped into the mast you'll likely hit water before you hit the end of the tether, clipped into a jackline you won't get an FF1 situation anyway due to the give of the jackline, etc.).
> 
> I could be way off base, but the whole FF1 thing seems like serious overkill to me for specifying a sailboat tether. I _could_ see a scenario like this on a multi - but if you're in that situation where you're knocked down far enough for a free-fall, your tether is the least of your worries. In fact, it could be the worst thing possible.


You didn't understand what I said. ANY combination of running, being struck by a wave, or stuffing a bow that will get you moving at 8 knots relative to the boat is EXACTLY the same from an energy standpoint as FF1 (FF1 at 6 feet is 8 knots). A fall is NOT required to generate the energy.

Now imagine a larger boat, imagine a lot of heel, and a man working slightly up-deck from his anchor. That is the worst case, and the poor man is going to break several ribs from the impact.

Tethers have been broken, and it was typically the helmsman getting thrown across the cockpit by a breaking wave.

----

Fun test. Put on your harness, connect yourself with a non-stretch tether to some thing rigid, and throw yourself at it, running, as though you have been hit by a wave. Go hard. You will injure yourself, so don't actually try this. Start at a few feet and work your way up. I promise you will never get to full speed.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Brewgyver said:


> Beyond the non-SS hardware and the inability to disconnect under load, this type of tether is also a problem due to its length. The shock absorption is accomplished by the web being gathered and weak-sewn. With sufficient shock, the stitching of the gathered webbing breaks, and the six foot tether becomes more like nine feet. That could be a big problem.


a. Yes, ISAF required a 3' option (mid-point clip or 2 legs).

b. It is actually much harder to rip the sacrificial stitching than you think. I used a protype sailing tether with sacrificial stitching for a year, intentionally throwing myself at it. Never did pop a stitch. If it did rip, it saved broken ribs. You will never trigger the absorber in a jackline situation; jackline give keeps you way below that limit. You could only trigger it in a fixed-point application, perhaps on the aft deck. I've known rock climbers to rip them, but that was with a seat harness, a real fall, AND the absorbed rigged on a 2:1 tackle that doubled the force on the anchor. And this is why the approach proved impractical. Dynamic material is more practical.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> You didn't understand what I said. ANY combination of running, being struck by a wave, or stuffing a bow that will get you moving at 8 knots relative to the boat is EXACTLY the same from an energy standpoint as FF1 (FF1 at 6 feet is 8 knots). A fall is NOT required to generate the energy.
> 
> Now imagine a larger boat, imagine a lot of heel, and a man working slightly up-deck from his anchor. That is the worst case, and the poor man is going to break several ribs from the impact.
> 
> ...


At the end of the day I just agree with this statement from your blog:



> A sailor will never see an impact beyond fall factor 1, and *a fall factor of 0.5 is probably a realistic worst case*. This is 10 times less.


So I stand by what I said above.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> At the end of the day I just agree with this statement from your blog:
> 
> So I stand by what I said above.


Wrong.

You took that calculation completely out of context, misquoting me very badly. That article was about via ferrata falls, which are very different from common falls (the safety line is attached to a cable next to the ladder, and a fall can be 15' between stops, taken on only a 3' tether, giving a fall factor of 5).* If I had been comparing a FF 1 to an FF 0.5, the energy would be 1/2 and the impact force about 2/3. *This is obvious (energy is in foot-pounds, so energy is directly proportional to the fall length).

Sail Delmarva: Via Ferrata Tethers--Some Good Ideas, But Not for Sailing

The sentence was in reference to via ferratta falls, which often have fall factors of 5, which is 10x more than 0.5. A common tether will beak EVERY time on a via ferrata fall; a specialized energy absorbing tether is used with via ferrata gear. Even so, via ferrata falls are always serious and injury is not uncommon--better not to fall. Very different from rock climbing falls on a dynamic rope. Very different.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

A FF is a FF regardless of medium. I understand the quote (and the 10X factor*) is from the via ferratta section - but your statement is very clear regarding what's likely to happen _on a sailboat_. And I agree with you: A FF of 0.5 is probably a realistic worst case. That's been my point for a while now.

(*You can disregard the 10X - I understand it doesn't apply to the sailboat scenario.)


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

^^ I will only repeat that the ISO 12401 drop test as required by the ISAF off-shore rules involves a FF1 on a 6' tether with a 220 pound mass. Sailors wearing lesser tethers have been lost during knock-downs, having been thrown across the cockpit. Extreme, happens only in weather most of us will never intentionally experience, but the basis of the standard.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> Extreme, happens only in weather most of us will never intentionally experience, but the basis of the standard.


Agreed.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> A FF is a FF regardless of medium. I understand the quote (and the 10X factor*) is from the via ferratta section - but your statement is very clear regarding what's likely to happen _on a sailboat_. And I agree with you: A FF of 0.5 is probably a realistic worst case. That's been my point for a while now.
> 
> (*You can disregard the 10X - I understand it doesn't apply to the sailboat scenario.)


Standing at the mast for reefing, and you clip in to a hardpoint at the mast with a short tether, say 3 feet. You fall from your spot at the mast and snatch up short on your tether. I can imagine falling 3 feet without hitting something to slow my fall here. So, that's a 3ft fall on a 3ft tether. FF1.

Same scenario, but a slightly longer tether. You go to the high side to do something, and fall (past your hardpoint on the mast) and snatch up on the low side. You've now fallen across your clear foredeck PAST your hardpoint for a >FF1, up to FF2.

I can produce these scenarios all day. Why is FF1 hard to imagine? People often stand near the point where they clip, so if you fall against your tether, it's gunna be a FF1.

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MedSailor said:


> Standing at the mast for reefing, and you clip in to a hardpoint at the mast with a short tether, say 3 feet. You fall from your spot at the mast and snatch up short on your tether. I can imagine falling 3 feet without hitting something to slow my fall here. So, that's a 3ft fall on a 3ft tether. FF1.
> 
> Same scenario, but a slightly longer tether. You go to the high side to do something, and fall (past your hardpoint on the mast) and snatch up on the low side. You've now fallen across your clear foredeck PAST your hardpoint for a >FF1, up to FF2.
> 
> ...


Sure - but the shorter the distance, the less the velocity and force. We're talking about force exceeding roughly 4K lbs. to break a tether (or biner, shackle, etc.)

As for the mast-fall scenario, how exactly are you going to get a _clear_ 13' _free fall_ across your deck for a true FF2? If you're heeled to vertical or past to create that scenario, you're going to hit water long before you hit the end of your tether.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Sure - but the shorter the distance, the less the velocity and force. We're talking about force exceeding roughly 4K lbs. to break a tether (or biner, shackle, etc.)


Agreed, but you asked for a FF1 so I gave you one, and it's a common scenario at that.  So, how far does one have to fall with a FF1 to generate 4k of force? Anyone? My physics formulas are too rusty to try this right now. If you could calculate the length, you could use this to determine the maximum length of your tether.... but.... you'd be missing the most important point of pdqaltair's research and call to put dynamic absorption into the system. It's not about breaking the tether, it's about breaking YOU!

I'd be grateful if someone would go through the math on 3, 4, and 6ft tethers and find out what the forces are with a FF1 fall (which I believe is not a vanishingly rare event) and we can see just how short it needs to be to not break your ribs.



smackdaddy said:


> As for the mast-fall scenario, how exactly are you going to get a _clear_ 13' _free fall_ across your deck for a true FF2? If you're heeled to vertical or past to create that scenario, you're going to hit water long before you hit the end of your tether.


Now we're getting into more rare events. Heeled to vertical is required, but I've heard of that, and it's called a (true) knockdown. They happen, though not often and not to everybody. Corrospondingly though, a FF2 is an extremely rare event in rock climbing. Extremely rare. BUT all the gear is built to this standard because it CAN happen. Would you rock climb on gear that you knew would fail above FF1.5? If so, why would you need to?

What's the big love affair with nylon webbing anyway? 

MedSailor


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Just 2 thoughts:

1. Don't think in terms of vertical fall, think in terms of velocity. If you fall 6 feet, accelerating at 32 ft/s2 for 0.38 seconds, you reach 12 ft/s and cover 6 feet. 12ft/s = 7 knots. Can you think of a senario where you are going 7 knots relative to the anchor? Faster? Slower? A combination of stumble, wave, and heel will get you there.

2. Try hitting the end of the tether at a fast jog, wearing a harness. Fall backwards against it, running to simulate the effect of heel. Get a feel for how much it hurts. Then decide how many ribs you would break if you actually aproached 5000 pounds. Perhaps your spine, depending on the direction.

I'm serious about the test. It is a real eye-opener, and there is no reason not to try it. You'll start thinking about softer tethers. If you gave me a set of Spectra or polyester tethers, I would give them back.

----

Once I fell from the mast, off the cabin top, on to the tramp. We were sailing fast, stuffed a wave I didn't see, and I was not wearing a tether. I tucked, did a sumersault, and landed on the tramp without incident. But there was a 4' drop (my chest dropped 8') and a signifigant horizontal velocity component, certainly exceding FF1. A tramp has a way of making you carefree on the foredeck. And I'm more careful on the cabin now (short leg). Interstingly, getting thrown forward is a greater risk on a cat than getting thrown to the side, so jacklines must end well aft of the bow.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MedSailor said:


> Agreed, but you asked for a FF1 so I gave you one, and it's a common scenario at that.  So, how far does one have to fall with a FF1 to generate 4k of force? Anyone? My physics formulas are too rusty to try this right now. If you could calculate the length, you could use this to determine the maximum length of your tether.... but.... you'd be missing the most important point of pdqaltair's research and call to put dynamic absorption into the system. It's not about breaking the tether, it's about breaking YOU!
> 
> I'd be grateful if someone would go through the math on 3, 4, and 6ft tethers and find out what the forces are with a FF1 fall (which I believe is not a vanishingly rare event) and we can see just how short it needs to be to not break your ribs.
> 
> ...


Here's a handy calculator:

http://www.myoan.net/climbart/climbforcecal.html

The Splat Calculator - A Free Fall Calculator

In a true knockdown, where is the mast in relation to the water?










Is there a typical cruising monohull out there that has enough buoyancy at the beam to keep the mast another 6' out of the water?

Again, this is what I mean about the inaccuracy of applying climbing-type forces to a sailboat scenario. You're in the water (or in the sails, or on the boom, or the lifelines, etc.) before you're at the end of the tether. No FF2.

In climbing, I've taken many, many big* falls (on dynamic rope with sewn webbing draws). Remember, FF is defined as follows:



> The fall factor (f) is the ratio of the height (h) a climber falls before the climber's rope begins to stretch and the rope length (L) available to absorb the energy of the fall.












So, there are a lot of variables at play in this discussion. But I'm personally just trying to stay focused on the scenario that will break a tether with more than 4K lbs of force.

PDQ lists two on his blog - both in horrendous storms (one of them the Sydney-Hobart). And I will absolutely grant that getting slammed by a humongous wall of water can absolutely do that. I'm just trying to work through realistic scenarios on a cruising boat that will generate that same kind of force. Stuffing a bow on a cruising boat going 6-7 knots isn't going to do it. Neither is falling in the water from the high-side in a knockdown.

That's why I agree with his assessment that a FF of 0.5 (in terms of force) is likely the worst case scenario on a sailboat. That said, if I cross an ocean, I'll go with the ISAF recommendations.

_(*Correction - I typed "FF2+ falls" above referring to the relationship of the climber to the anchor in the image. This wasn't accurate, however, due to the "L" variable for a true FF calculation, since I had a good deal of rope out below the anchor when I took those falls sport climbing, along with a belayer that also absorbed force. Here we've been talking about a tether on a hard anchor. So I fixed that typo to try to keep things clear. Definitely no true FF2 falls, Med, you're right - though I did, stupidly, take a ~7' FF1+ fall - on a static rope - when I very first started learning to lead climb. The only reason I didn't end up in the ER is that I was 20-something and the gear miraculously stayed intact and kept me off the rocks. It hurt like hell though. Never again.)_


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

bow work in really choppy seas ive bounced at least 5-6 feet off deck in small boats...hitting something on the way down canreally hurt...

in regards to tethers and the like there is always that scenario that you didnt think about...so just plan accordingly and err on the safe side

again I defer to, or prefer shorter tethers...for some of the reasons being expounded here...mostly because once off the decks its inmeasureably harder to get back on and survive especially if solo...

so short, slightly "elastic" tether with a quik release shackle...with at least one leg strap or 2 "attachment" points to prevent unwanted slips has worked for me and many I know.

anywhoo

back to science


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Here's a handy calculator:
> 
> Rock Climbers Shock Force Calculator
> 
> ...


Emphasis added to quote by MedSailor

Smack,

I was thinking about this thread the other night, and suddenly it hit me. Why are you/we talking about fall factors at all??? In your definition above, which I agree with, the whole point of the "factor" is having enough rope out to absorb the impact. That doesn't seem relevant at all to a discussion of tethers if the tethers don't absorb impact.

The nylon webbing tether you're using (and are commercially available) are (for all intents and purposes) static. The force is still the same force, but by virtue of being static, they transfer all of it to the user. That's their problem. It's like the difference between a 6 foot fall landing on a foam mat, or landing on concrete. The force the victim has at the time of impact with the ground is the same, but only one of them is going to seriously get hurt.

As for how far you can fall, I'll concede the knockdown scenario for now to the cool picture you posted. I can imagine endless scenarios with a FF 1+ though. How can a FF of only 0.5 be likely? That means you never work above your anchor point? How about this scenario. Clipped to the mast, you go up to the high side to do something, and slip. As you mentioned, there's lots of stuff to catch yourself on, so your tether gets caught on a shroud. You fall back to the mast, but no further. That's a 3ft fall on a 6ft tether (since it wrapped around the shroud). If not this exact scenario then surely a 3ft fall on a 6ft tether is believable right?

How about a short leash at the mast? 3ft tether. Many commercially available tethers have a short leg. You fall 3 feet and snatch up on the tether. 3ft fall on a 3ft tether. Seems possible right?

Using the myoan.net calculator you linked to, see what happens when you take a 3 ft fall on your 6ft tether on a dynamic rope (pdqaltair's tether) vs a static rope (your tether.)

I put in 200lbs. Many weigh more or less, but a wet sailor in his foulies on average might weigh about this much. Calcs are as follows:
Dynamic rope = 7.7KN
Static rope = 15.3KN

Putting in the 3ft fall on the 3ft tether:
Dynamic rope = 10.2kn
Static rope = 20.4KN (OUCH!)

You say you're trying to stay focused on scenarios that will cause >4,000lbs of force and break a tether. I think the focus should be on the much smaller falls that can happen and the forces involved that will break YOU (but leave your tether intact).

I was looking to find a resource that would tell me how much force it takes to break ones ribs. Didn't find anything that looked credible though we could use the UIAA's maximum safety limit for the impact force of ropes as a starting point. I doubt they came up with this number arbitrarily. Their max is 12KN of force transferred to the climber. Both scenarios above won't snap your webbing tether but they both exceed what the UIAA feels will snap something of *yours*, which is really the point I'm trying to make.

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Again, I understand the forces involved.

One of the reasons I'm discussing it is that breakage was one of the primary issues PDQ listed in his blog regarding webbing (the two instances of them breaking).

As you've said above, a scenario that generates this much force is very unlikely (unless you're above decks in a Sydney-Hobart storm).

So - that leaves damage to the body - which is absolutely valid. BUT, I still have two problems with this:

1. I still have a hard time imagining a scenario where (if you're at all safe) you are going to get a _true fall equivalent_ to FF .5 on a sailboat.

2. IF YOU DO take such a fall in a standard sailing chest harness, even with a dynamic line - you're screwed anyway.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Again, I understand the forces involved.
> 
> One of the reasons I'm discussing it is that breakage was one of the primary issues PDQ listed in his blog regarding webbing (the two instances of them breaking).


I'm not sure you got his point. If I recall his point was that people were TOO FOCUSED on the tethers breaking, and strengthening them and eliminating D-rings when the real issue is that when webbing breaks the forces on the victim are already severe and possibly fatal. Here's an excerpt from his blog in underline to separate it from my post.

Sail Delmarva: Sample Calculations for Jackline Stress and Energy Absorption
I don't think the tethers failed due to bad construction; I think they were simply stressed past 4500 pounds and broke. Making them strong wouln't help, as they would simply break the sailor in half. We need to make them softer.



smackdaddy said:


> As you've said above, a scenario that generates this much force is very unlikely (unless you're above decks in a Sydney-Hobart storm).


Did I say that? I may have said FF2 was unlikely, but you asked for scenarios, so I produced some. As for unlikely, so is the need for a liferaft or EPIRB, or even a fire extinguisher, but they're good ideas no?



smackdaddy said:


> So - that leaves damage to the body - which is absolutely valid. BUT, I still have two problems with this:
> 
> 1. I still have a hard time imagining a scenario where (if you're at all safe) you are going to get a _true fall equivalent_ to FF .5 on a sailboat.
> 
> 2. IF YOU DO take such a fall in a standard sailing chest harness, even with a dynamic line - you're screwed anyway.


1: Is my 3ft fall on to the short length of the tether not a reasonable scenario? That generated some horrific loads.

2: You give up too easy!  Why say you're toast anyway when there's an easy way to halve the force? It keeps it under the UIAA spec (which I know is for a seat harness) but still, you're much better off methinks trying to take 7kn to the chest rather than 15 right?

So, again, what's the big ADVANTAGE of nylon webbing?

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MedSailor said:


> So, again, what's the big ADVANTAGE of nylon webbing?
> 
> MedSailor


One of the big advantages is that it doesn't roll under your feet on a bucking deck. Another is that it doesn't have the sheath/core construction of dynamic climbing rope where the core provides the bulk of the strength but is susceptible to damage from gritty stuff (dirt, salt, etc.). Then you have the cost of dry rope vs. standard non-treated...where the dry treatment wears off. Then you have the bulkiness of the knots, etc.

Honestly, I have nothing against using rope per se if that works for you. I have plenty of retired climbing rope that I'd trust for a tether. In the context of sailing, I just don't see this huge reason to use it over webbing.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> One of the big advantages is that it doesn't roll under your feet on a bucking deck. Another is that it doesn't have the sheath/core construction of dynamic climbing rope where the core provides the bulk of the strength but is susceptible to damage from gritty stuff (dirt, salt, etc.). Then you have the cost of dry rope vs. standard non-treated...where the dry treatment wears off. Then you have the bulkiness of the knots, etc.
> 
> Honestly, I have nothing against using rope per se if that works for you. I have plenty of retired climbing rope that I'd trust for a tether. In the context of sailing, I just don't see this huge reason to use it over webbing.


Grit. Not on a boat.

Salt. My first dynamic rope was purchased in 1982. I used it for years, with few falls, and then retired it for use as anchor rode on my last boat for 15 years. Lots of salt exposure. A few months ago I pull tested a piece (6400 pounds) and subjected it to Aussie drop testing (6 falls to failure--somewhat less severe than a UIAA fall). This was a 32 year old rope. No, there is nothing special about salt.

Cutting. Rope wins, but it's close. I've seen studies on this (pendulum model), some of which I've been involved in.

UV. Rope wins.

Dry treatment. Can easily be restored. I treat my ice climbing ropes every other season (Nikwax). Personally, I find 8mm line MUCH less prone to sticking to the deck and tangling due to wetness than webbing. Less contact area.

Under foot. Yes, the only actual negative, but the smaller lines are better. But really, if the line is under foot you need better line management. I can't remember stepping on it.

Knots. Sewn works for both. But really, how bulky is a double overhand noose in 8mm line? It's not. No one said you had to tie a big old figure-8 to get full strength.

Hand grip. Rope is way easier to handle and hold. Rope grips work during MOB.

And yes, I wish there was a good dynamic webbing. There are reasons climbers use webbing, but lanyards is one of them (you must know they can be deadly with even low fall factors). OSHA likes webbing, but they have different reasoning that does not exactly apply (sewn absorbers and full body harnesses).

The thing I like about 8mm line is that I know I can't survive a hard stop on webbing; bones will break. Try the tether test I suggested. Really.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> One of the big advantages is that it doesn't roll under your feet on a bucking deck.


Seems to me if someone is stepping on their tether, they're simply not paying close enough attention to how they move about their boat...


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Seems to me if someone is stepping on their tether, they're simply not paying close enough attention to how they move about their boat...


Or they are far too long. Why are folks getting dragged behind the boat? My longest tether is just 42" long. For most deck work I use a 36" inch tether on the center line jackstay. No way I'm going overboard or creating enough velocity to be crushed by my harness or having webbing break.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

^^ This is the most common reason for custom tethers. 3/6 feet is too long for many smaller boats; too bad they don't come in small and large. Some work around it by looping the tether around the jackline or anchor, clipping back to the harness and defeating the quick-release feature.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jon - your perfection is pure joy to behold.

As I said, you guys feel free to use whatever you want for your tethers. I don't care. I, however, like to take my cues from guys who _really_ know...






Notice that webbing?

(PS - PDQ, as I said above, I have taken a FF1+ fall on static rope.)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Jon - your perfection is pure joy to behold.


Nah, I'm not claiming "perfection"...

Only, that I've somehow managed to avoid tripping over my tether _THUS FAR_...

It could happen next week, who knows? But if it does, I'm pretty sure it will be because I wasn't paying attention, or moving about carefully enough...



As for what the guys in the VOR is using, well... my boat bears precious little resemblance to a Volvo 70. And after sailing her for nearly 20 years, this is the arrangement I've refined that works best for _ME_, when sailing _MY_ little tub... I would not recommend it for the guys aboard TELEFONICA, but by the same token I won't be switching back to webbing because some VOR crews might prefer it...

Although, after watching the way some of those guys are being snatched up on their tethers, it wouldn't surprise me if afterwards, one or more of them might have wished for just a _bit_ more shock absorbtion designed into their system


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Notice that webbing?
> 
> (PS - PDQ, as I said above, I have taken a FF1+ fall on static rope.)


a. And some of them use Dyneema. And some of them use nothing. And they are all rugged cusses, much younger than me.

b. I wouldn't brag about that; bad planning.

c. You didn't take the fall on a chest harness.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Jon - your perfection is pure joy to behold.
> 
> As I said, you guys feel free to use whatever you want for your tethers. I don't care. I, however, like to take my cues from guys who _really_ know...
> 
> ...


I remember when these vids starting popping up on youtube since befire that all you had were whitbread footage and the sort and I remember spending hours and days at a time "studying" them

and man was it a blast...I would chat and have beers with my brother and or sailing friends commenting non stop about what would you do, look at that, look at the speed, equipment what that guy did etc...

its impressive how much you can learn from a simple vid like this

this vid also shows how damn fast the boat picked up speed after that "knockdown"

I was about to add that if you really want to see what the pros do look at vids like this and emulate them

its important to notice however that even though this is the peak of offshore sailing its not wise to emulate and replicate *everything*

reason being its apples and oranges

basically these guys are on a skiff...flat and open and most of us have to deal with cabins, bridgedecks, jerry cans, dinghies, basically the clutter of the common cruising boat...

Ill finish with saying like I have before short tethers for most cruisers are better...

crawl on deck, 3 points meaning 3 limbs always grabbing something or contacting...and slow is safe when moving on deck in rough seas.

cheers


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> a. And some of them use Dyneema. And some of them use nothing. And they are all rugged cusses, much younger than me.
> 
> b. I wouldn't brag about that; bad planning.
> 
> c. You didn't take the fall on a chest harness.


A Dyneema _tether_? Why on earth would someone do _that_? I've seen Dyneema jacklines, but I've never seen a Dyneema tether. No thanks.

I do like the way that guy just in front of the helm scrambles to clip in...AFTER the knockdown. Lucky dude.

As for the static fall - I'm certainly not bragging about it. I was young and stupid and lucky. I'm just saying I've done it. So I understand the forces. I can also virtually guarantee I'll NEVER take a fall that hard while sailing a boat. If I do that's the least of my worries.

Finally, do you wear a chest harness? If so, what is the rating of the loops (I honestly don't know)?

Here is the pfd/harness I typically wear:










And here's the type a lot of others will likely have:










I wouldn't trust that thing in a true FF1 fall - even on a dynamic rope. Would you? This is what I mean about the silliness of applying the climbing mentality to sailing. You either need to go all in (full climbing gear on your boat) - or realize it's just a different animal as shown in that video. These guys in their chest harnesses came out of it with their bodies and gear perfectly intact.

Of course, they are likely using Spinlocks which are great, but didn't several of them fail to inflate in the LSC/Farrallones incident? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Jon - your perfection is pure joy to behold.
> 
> As I said, you guys feel free to use whatever you want for your tethers. I don't care. I, however, like to take my cues from guys who _really_ know...
> 
> ...


Take your cues from the guys who really know? I know you don't mind what we use, but you're continuing the argument that webbing is actually better somehow,and I feel the argument is getting thin . Also, there are other eyes watching, so I'll continue arguing my side if you don't mind. As for picking a video to demonstrate the proper use of tethers by the experts, did you notice that when they took that big wave the guy just forward of the Starboard wheel wasn't clipped in at all? After the big wave he is seen rushing around to clip in. Taking all your cues from these guys blindly isn't a good idea. 



smackdaddy said:


> though I did, stupidly, take a ~7' FF1+ fall - on a static rope - when I very first started learning to lead climb. The only reason I didn't end up in the ER is that I was 20-something and the gear miraculously stayed intact and kept me off the rocks. It hurt like hell though. Never again.)[/I]


What I don't understand about this part of the story is the "never again" part. So you took a fall on a static rope, why would you be setting yourself up for another fall on a static line (nylon webbing) but this time taking the fall on the chest which is more vulnerable?

I'm getting the impression that you must be approaching this from the "the forces will never get high enough to matter in the real world" point of view. If I'm right about this, will you be willing to tell us how far of a fall you think is reasonable? You never answered if you thought my 3ft fall on a 3ft tether was reasonable. Lets plug the numbers from what you think may happen into the calculator you supplied and see what the results are for static line. I'm going to predict that they are still going to be forces you won't want to take on your chest.

MedSailor


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

you are forgetting WEIGHT too

the stuff these guys do to saveweight like cutting toothbrushes in half is not what cruisers do so thats why I agree too doing everything blindly and follow others isnt always the smartest thing to do

the smartest thing to do would be to test different equipment on your boat in different situations and see what works best...however that requires in most cases a bigger investment, time etc...waiting for bad weather etc..


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> A Dyneema _tether_? Why on earth would someone do _that_? I've seen Dyneema jacklines, but I've never seen a Dyneema tether. No thanks.


Now I'm confused. I thought you didn't think shock absorption in your tether was important.

MedSailor


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

man you guys are getting realy technical

by law the shock absorbtion will be more in the jackline because of length, than in the tether if attached to a jackline...

some stretch is fine 

Im not understanding the whole(purpose) discussion here lately


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay - I'll give this another crack...



MedSailor said:


> Take your cues from the guys who really know? I know you don't mind what we use, but you're continuing the argument that webbing is actually better somehow,and I feel the argument is getting thin . Also, there are other eyes watching, so I'll continue arguing my side if you don't mind. As for picking a video to demonstrate the proper use of tethers by the experts, did you notice that when they took that big wave the guy just forward of the Starboard wheel wasn't clipped in at all? After the big wave he is seen rushing around to clip in. Taking all your cues from these guys blindly isn't a good idea.


I don't. I was just looking at their tethers and what happened to them when they got slammed by a huge breaking wave in the Southern Ocean. The tethers were webbing from what I can see. And they survived just fine.

For the most part, I don't plan to get slammed by a huge breaking wave in the Southern Ocean...at least not on our Hunter, or with my cruising gear.



MedSailor said:


> What I don't understand about this part of the story is the "never again" part. So you took a fall on a static rope, why would you be setting yourself up for another fall on a static line (nylon webbing) but this time taking the fall on the chest which is more vulnerable?


What I'm saying is that I believe our current gear will handle (pretty easily) whatever we run into on our sailboat.

I wouldn't rock climb with it, however.



MedSailor said:


> I'm getting the impression that you must be approaching this from the "the forces will never get high enough to matter in the real world" point of view. If I'm right about this, will you be willing to tell us how far of a fall you think is reasonable? You never answered if you thought my 3ft fall on a 3ft tether was reasonable. Lets plug the numbers from what you think may happen into the calculator you supplied and see what the results are for static line. I'm going to predict that they are still going to be forces you won't want to take on your chest.


Again, purely in the context of a _true FF1_ (i.e. - all of your body weight falling completely unencumbered through the air onto a completely immovable anchor) - I have a very hard time seeing that happen on a sailboat. It's really not more complicated than that.

I could be wrong. We'll see.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> man you guys are getting realy technical
> 
> by law the shock absorbtion will be more in the jackline because of length, than in the tether if attached to a jackline...
> 
> ...


Exactly.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

a. Yes, some of the teams use 3/16" Amsteel for tethers. I was told this by a person involved. They like the fact that they can roll a tether into a pocket and sleep with it. Give the crazy 24/7 nature of life during a race, I though that had some merit. The idea is that when on a jackline, the jackline provides stretch, in in the cockpit, short tethers shorten falls. However, this same person was considering recommending the change to 7.7 mm dynamic line.

b. This is the reason for short work station specific tethers. MOBs in these conditions are most often when a sailor is on-station and working with his hands, not holding on. The video indeed makes a case for that. These work station tethers are in addition to personal tethers.

c. Yes, for a jackline fall, most of the energy adsorption comes from the jackline... depending on the length and the material of the jackline. A SS or Dyneema may have effectively zero give. Really, jackline engineering is boat-specific. However, in practice there have been no recorded cases of tether failures when clipped to a jackline, suggesting those falls are generally more like slides and that there is enough energy absorption between the jackline and tether.

d. CE approved tethers must pass a drop test (FF1 with 220 pounds). This is more than a UIAA FF1 and less than a UIAA fall. Passing requires a considerable amount of stretch and strength, slightly more than you will get from 1" climbing webbing. Additionally, it insures some stretch (it's the only way to pass). Strangely, there is no maximum impact force requirement.

e. Harnesses must pass the same drop test. No limit on broken ribs.

f. Those cases where tethers have failed have all been against fixed anchors in the cockpit. Thus energy absorption is important. Additionally, I think the video makes it pretty clear why a short strap to windward at each station would be a very good thing.

But I have zero interest in sailing on that boat!

----

For my personal use, Like Smackdaddy and most of us, I don't expect a FF1 (8 feet per second horizontal, or some mixture) fall. On my foredeck (16 feet wide) I have a high stretch jackline (rope) and barely feel the catch, even though I have long (8') tethers. Around the mast the geometry is worse (less jackline stretch because I am close to the anchor) but not too bad. What I fear is a stumble/fall down the sugar scoops while landing a fish or something similar. At that point the deck is wide open and raised (center cockpit), and a fall would have both horizontal and vertical components. Yes, worst case could approach FF1. But more to the point I have broken and separated ribs in the past several times, have back problems, and simply can't survive a hard stop without injury. So I use dynamic tethers because they work well for me and they are comfortable to lean and to fall against. They are luxurious. And that is a good reason, for me.

I use 8mm dynamic line, because it can easily manage a fall factor 1 and the CE fall, because it is softer that 10mm dynamic rope, very compact, cut to custom length, and free.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

What's really going to happen when you fall and slide around is your going to crack some ribs on a stanchion, knock your head on the deck, stub your toe on a cleat and get some severe road rash from your ground walnut shell anti skid deck coating....


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

^^

The interesting thing here is the the contrast. Monohull sailors envision sliding across the sloping deck while cat sailors have longer horizontal distances without hitting anything and a quicker motion. Because the scenarios are so different, the functional requirements of the fall arrest system are significantly different, and we waste time arguing which is right without stopping to notice they are different. Often we are both right. 

There is no need for one-size-fits-all. I shared some ideas on a system I believe is better for the wide open decks of cats and for me. If I had a skinny bow and a 30 degree tilt instead of a deck that jumps about I'd likely do something different.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

exactly! your boat, you test what works and be done with it...


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Fourth coast,
I'm in the process of setting up a tether as you describe, but in knots illustrated they state the cow hitch should not "be trusted alone for critical applications. Would not the halyard hitch be better than the cow hitch? Or maybe the anchor hitch?
John


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

The tethers the USCG crews use in the Columbia River bar are adjustable length.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Waltthesalt said:


> The tethers the USCG crews use in the Columbia River bar are adjustable length.


But do they use a cow hitch?
John


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

ccriders said:


> But do they use a cow hitch?
> John


I couldn't find 4th cost's post, so I can only speak for me:

a. I use a cow hitch only to adjust the relative length of the 2 legs; if it slipped all the way, the tether would not release as the biners cannot pass through the eye.

b. The cow hitch is seized in place; it cannot slip when so finished.

This is probably more fail-safe than a sewn eye which will fail if loaded between the arms (the stitching will rip at ~ 800 pounds. Granted this should never happen. For climbing rope, which is fall rated WITH knots in the system, a seized cow hitch does not introduce a failure point.

If not seized there is a modest probability it will slip. However, I've had jib sheets attached that way that were quite hard to remove!


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

His is the OP in this thread, and the tether he proposed uses only one carabiner at the jack line and a snap shackle at the harness. The second short leg is created with a rolling hitch onto the long leg in effect creating a single tether with two legs. I just set up one as he illustrated and it seems a pretty functional arrangement. The most important issue I can see with it is that there is only one carabiner, so unclipping to go around an obstacle would leave you vulnerable, and also the cow hitch at the carabiner attaching to the jack line.
Tie one up, I would love to hear your take on it (with respect to a mid-small sized monohull). 
John


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here's what the knockdown/tether scenario looks like with amateurs:






That forward-most, portside guy in the red might rate as close to an FF1 as you'll get on sailboat.

That's a lesson in downwind driving in big wind and waves if I've ever seen one.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Yikes! One of those guys didn't get up by the end of the video. I hope he was okay. 

Looks like a helmet would be in order for that fall,  as well as a tether that is as stretchy as possible and a harness that spreads the load as much as possible. The need for the stretchy tether is reduced though, because they're on a jackline, not a hard point.

Injured and aboard, beats uninjured and overboard though! 

MedSailor

PS Someone should tell them that letting the jib hang over the fore-deck like that will hurt boat speed.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Looks like the dude in yellow took a hard hit to his back (landed in a sitting position on the opposite deckside. Ouch is right.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Smack, what year, leg and name of the Clipper Clip? I got up close and personal with them when they were in SF last April. Even closed out a bar with a couple of the pros off of Londonderry. As I recall, they run cable inside webbing for jacklines. (Londonderry was parked next to us). Pretty cool to watch and I was thinking how easy is that – the boat gets back on her feet all on her own. Then I saw the pro helmsman just off camera do all the steering while the other guy was on the deck.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, what year, leg and name of the Clipper Clip? I got up close and personal with them when they were in SF last April. Even closed out a bar with a couple of the pros off of Londonderry. As I recall, they run cable inside webbing for jacklines. (Londonderry was parked next to us). Pretty cool to watch and I was thinking how easy is that - the boat gets back on her feet all on her own. Then I saw the pro helmsman just off camera do all the steering while the other guy was on the deck.


Here's the info:



> Derry~Londonderry~Doire knock-down in hurricane force gusts heading to Southern Ocean from South Africa in November 2013


It looks to me like the helmsman over-steered into that broach after the bow got pushed off by the crossing wave - then sealed it with a final turn to port right as she was going in. Is that what you see as well?

The crewman to starboard knew it was coming before anyone else. I'm thinking he's the other pro on deck.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

So that was Londonderry? When they left SF, they were all wearing matchy-matchy purple/blue&black matching foulies. I wonder if they have "dress foulies" and "utlities"? Gives one pause - do you think that they dress for dinner?


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## FourthCoast (Oct 14, 2013)

So it turns out my tether is not so great.

I already got a one-hand-opening double-action aluminum carabiner. That was a big improvement. I think that really is a must-have like so many from sailnet have suggested.

The adjustable rolling hitch also did not work out so well. The knot was in just the right place to grab it for support -- which would cause the knot to 'adjust' unexpectedly. I got rid of that.

I am planning to rework the setup to have a very short tether on my chest and appropriate length tethers to attach it to in the cockpit and on the deck.

Learning the hard way!

Scott.


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

I also didnot like the carabinier hook. The load carrying capacity for these hooks are very low. If your intend is to stay on the boat the hook might be enough but the line you use is overkill for this hook.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

I appreciate your follow up.
John


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hey man, ya gotta try!

Thanks for the follow-up.


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## single2coil (Apr 12, 2014)

nice job, West Marine is so expensive due to liability......simple as that. They must use elaborate testing. You may someday be glad they did.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

single2coil said:


> nice job, West Marine is so expensive due to liability......simple as that. They must use elaborate testing. You may someday be glad they did.


... Except they had the ones that wouldn't release under load, there is no place to park the spare leg other than your harness (thus no release). I recall a Windnuts sailor nearly died due to that minor glitch.

I don't think they've done much real testing, just one-time stength test. Not real world testing and not enough repeat testing.

For the price, I'm underwhelmed.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> ...there is no place to park the spare leg other than your harness (thus no release)...


Really? What about attaching the spare leg through the release-under-load shackle that attaches to your harness? Then if you have to release, the spare leg falls harmlessly off.

It's been over a year since the one-and-only time that I had to clip in, but that's what I recall doing at the time. I have very little experience with this, so open to your comment about whether my suggestion has merit.


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## single2coil (Apr 12, 2014)

good comments, pdqualtair, I am also underwhelmed by the price, I know I have one, most cumbersome


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