# A small, serene, lightweight boat?



## InlandGirl (Jul 10, 2007)

OK, so I had two lovely weeks of sailing on a rented Hobie Holder 14'. This was on a small-ish inland lake: every day it was breezy enough but not too gusty, we'd go out for an hour or two. Now I want a boat of my own, but I'm a little concerned about buying one that's totally out of production (like the Holder). What if something needs replacing? My only other sailing experience has been on small boats like Cape Cod Mercuries: I thought those were great. So obviously I'm not looking for racing-type thrills, just a stable, nice-looking little boat I can take out on the local lakes for a few hours whenever I feel like it without a lot of fussing around (the furling jib on the Holder was a big plus in this regard). My summertime mooring spot is super-shallow: a centerboard/daggerboard is a must, because I don't want to have to wade out a quarter mile to get on board. I need a cockpit with comfortable room for two or maybe three adults -- though I would be out on my own about half the time. And one more thing: my little car only has a 1000 lb towing capacity, so I would not want a boat + trailer combo that was much more than 600 lbs. 

So - anyone care to give advice to a totally non-thrill-seeking wanna-be owner of a very small boat? Should I go grab a Holder off E-Bay and hope nothing needs replacing? Are there other small & serene boats I ought to look at?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I would highly recommend that you stay away from e-bay or craigslist for buying your boat, unless you can go see the boat in question. A much better way to buy a small boat is usually to find a seller through one of the local sailing clubs. Often, they can tell you a lot about the boat and how the owner treats it—which can help you determine if the boat is worth buying or not. 

Stick with a boat that was pretty popular and mass produced. The chances of getting spare parts for a limited run boat are much lower. Most small boats, in the weight range of your cars towing capacity, are going to be centerboard or daggerboard boats... 

The question is, would you want a boat that has a cabin of some sort, or are you looking for a daysailer. Having even a small cabin can make a huge difference, especially if you want do some longer sails and overnight on the boat. Even on a rainy day... I'll often go down to the boat, even if I don't feel like sailing and sit in the cabin—just to be on the water... However, a pure daysailer is going to have a much larger cockpit than a small pocket cruiser will. 

I would recommend you check with the local sailing clubs and see what is popular in your area. If they have a small dinghy racing fleet, it would probably be well worth getting one of the same boats, and racing it... since that would highly accellerate your skills in boat handling and such. Most cruisers I know benefit from the racing side of sailing, since the maximization of light air performance that most racers learn is also just as useful on a cruising boat, and can help you delay resorting to the iron genny. 

If you have any specific questions, let me know.... and I'll do what I can to answer them... and if you're ever out in the Beantown area, let me know...if I'm around, we can go out for a sail. 

BTW, most people don't consider small beach cats serene... they're a bit too high-performance for that...  and sailing one on the edge, with a hull flying is definitely not serene...


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*Some ideas ...*

Hi, Inland Girl --

There are lots of choices available to you. Dog's recommendation to check sailing clubs is a good one; and I also don't recommend buying a boat you haven't seen.

Just a few small monohull sloop ideas, not too different from the Holders ...

Albacore
AMF Sunbird
Capri Omega
Capri 14.2
O'Day Widgeon
O'Day Javelin

That's just a start, and I'm only on my second cup of coffee. More important than in or out of production is how may there are out there. Find a boat that is or was popular, and finding parts when you need them shouldn't be too much of a problem. So here's a suggestion ...

http://www.sailingtexas.com/cboats99.html

That's an alphabetically organized gallery you can browse through ... it's give you a sense of what's out there on the used market and what you can expect to pay. Any other question ... fire away.

Kurt


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*Another idea ...*

In a similar thread on another forum, I became aware of this boat, which I'd never seen before.

http://www.crosscurrentmarine.com/cc12.html

As a suggestion, it's purely tongue in cheek. But is that a sexy little boat or what?

I'm off to see if I won the Mega Millions drawing last night ... might buy a couple dozen of 'em for my close friends.

Kurt


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## InlandGirl (Jul 10, 2007)

Ah, the sailingtexas site -- what a way to kill a morning!  

Thanks for the suggestions. What I'm envisioning - aside from the summer trips to MI -- is a boat I can keep at one of the little clubs here, so that I can take it out for an hour or two on a moment's notice. It really would be possible: both clubs are about 10 minutes from where I live & work, and I have a schedule that's flexible enough so that almost any time I felt like spending a bit of time on the lake, I could do it. I won't be planning to spend entire days or longer on the boat -- THAT kind of time I don't yet have, not even on weekends. 

I've paid visits to both of the local clubs over the past couple of weeks...one is mostly 22+ft cruisers, on a lake that is overrun with powerboats on the weekends; the other, on a quieter lake, is mostly racing boats (Y-Flyers and such). I may spend some time crewing for them, but I really don't want one of my own: staying relatively dry and comfortable is more a priority than speed! It's curious -- there just don't seem to be many little daysailers around. But I am pretty sure of the kind of boat I want. The boat committee (that is to say, my Dad) is in agreement, and in fact he is going to pay a visit to his local dealer to have a look at a Catalina 14.2. He'll be keeping his eye out for other similar boats too -- it's much more likely that something will turn up for sale in Michigan, than down here in the northern edge of the Bible belt. Oh, someday I will once again live in a place with lakes that were put there by receding glaciers, not the Corps of Engineers!!


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## InlandGirl (Jul 10, 2007)

...and Kurt, that little Crosscurrent is very cool, in a quirky way. Sexy? I don't know....but all that mahogany and teak does sort of make me weak in the knees.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

InlandGirl said:


> ...and Kurt, that little Crosscurrent is very cool, in a quirky way. Sexy? I don't know....but all that mahogany and teak does sort of make me weak in the knees.


But would you rather be sailing or varnishing????


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I would be on the lookout for something like this or this although it may be heavier than you were looking for. as far as worrying about a boat being out of production...i wouldnt! half of us on here speaking for myself as well, have boats out of production. there are many companies offering aftermarket replacement parts ie: sailnet store. something like this would surely take you on a mellow serene moonlite sail, or even an overnighter. good luck!


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

"Small, serene, and lightweight" is a tough order. Most light little boats suffer terribly when the wind kicks up -- they have a narrow window of sailability, mebbe fifteen knots. It seems you are always either drifting at snail's pace or hanging on like grim death.

You could get a chunky little dink & rig it short, just tool around. There are a few under-canvassed 'fambily daysailors," like the Snipe or American 14.6. The Precision 15is a serious, serene, stable, six-hundred pound bundle of love.

If old-fashioned appeals, a gaff-riffed catboat may be your ride. They have soul to spare, and are forgiving at the expense of anything resembling performance. Google "family daysailer" for the usual embarrassment of riches.

Oh-so-agree with USPirate's suggestion of a Compac 16. Sailingtexas.com has a video of one sailing around. You can see the wind is blowing pretty good, and the boat is moving nicely -- but barely heeling or pounding. I'm SO envious -- singlehanding w/out hiking straps! What a concept.


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*Couple more thoughts ...*

You've gotten some good suggestions here, and the Capri your dad is going to look at is another one. Also sounds like you're pretty well set-up for spur of the moment outings. If the clubs you mention will let you store your boat rigged on the trailer, that's even better. A couple of minutes of bending on the sails, tossing the cooler in the cockpit and you're on your way. I envy you being 10 minutes from the water. I shouldn't complain about my 55 minute drive to the lake, but I'd rather have those two hours back in sailing time.

Well, another cup of coffee ... and then that 55 minute drive! Yes.

Kurt


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## InlandGirl (Jul 10, 2007)

bobmcgov said:


> "Small, serene, and lightweight" is a tough order. Most light little boats suffer terribly when the wind kicks up -- they have a narrow window of sailability, mebbe fifteen knots.


If it's blowing 15 here, you're in a thunderstorm. 

I'm almost serious. A bit of a breeze - 5-8 - is a lot more common...

Hm. "Family Daysailer" sounds downright middle-aged. I guess I am, though, temperamentally and now chronologically, too: my little brother just bought his first minivan, and that must mean I'm getting old.. This was a very traumatic event for him, I tell ya, but he's got to put the two carseats somewhere. He would be the type for a fast, thrilling, wet, tippy little boat. Me, I've always thought 85% comfort - 15% adventure a pretty good plan. So maybe I've always been middle-aged. Why fight it?


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

In regards to small boats getting beat up in the wind. It's got more to do with small boat sailors not comfortable with reefing their boats. Just practice reefing till you can do it out on the water quickly and you'll be fine.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Awww... innit cute? (Wouldn't call it "lightweight," but if you want solid....)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The West Wight Potter 15 comes in about 825 lbs for the boat and trailer. The Com-Pac Picnic Cat comes in probably at about the same or a bit heavier... but both should be towable by your car. Both have small cabins and would be suitable for both daysailing and short weekend cruises.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

The Potter is a fine little boat with a very loyal ownership.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

*Potterpotterpotter*

The WWP is _adorable._ Plenty of freeboard and a small sailplan. Built solidly. More like a MiniCooper than a minivan (which I also drive, sigh). Not a whole lot of passenger space, but hey. And with a DPN of 138, it's firmly in the 'serene' column.

Andy's Newport17 is another contender for reliable singlehanding.


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*Not so sure about the Potter*

I kinda feel like I'm picking on an adorable little kid here, but for the small, midwest inland lake sailing originally described, I think the Potter would be standing still most of the time. There was a WWP 15 out on our lake on Monday, and it was just slogging in 8 to 10, while I had a lively sail in my Scot (which is not what you'd call a high-performance speed machine).

There are plenty of small, relatively stable sailing platforms out there (think Day Sailer) that have more cockpit room and more lively performance than the admittedly cute Potter.

Kurt


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

How about a Sakonnet 23?

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...=126&man=edey&slim=quick&is=false&searchtype=


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A bit large for her needs, considering she's got a max of 1000 lbs. towing capacity, and looking to stay around 600 lbs. for the boat and trailer. The Sakonnet has 920 lbs. of ballast alone... 



TSteele65 said:


> How about a Sakonnet 23?
> 
> http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...=126&man=edey&slim=quick&is=false&searchtype=


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

What about the O'Day DaySailor? They are plentiful, fairly light and don't require much wind tomove (this is all second hand, but I think it's accurate).

I have to agree with Kurt about the Potter and trailer sailors in general; they are generally not too responsive in serene conditions and often carry the same sails as racing dinghies half their weight.


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> A bit large for her needs, considering she's got a max of 1000 lbs. towing capacity, and looking to stay around 600 lbs. for the boat and trailer. The Sakonnet has 920 lbs. of ballast alone...


Oops, missed that.

How about a nice Herreshoff 12.5?

EDIT: Nevermind, it's 1350 lbs. I'll shut up now.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

*Hurtin' on the runt, eh? Bullies.*

O'Days are so-so. I've sailed maybe a half dozen models. Nothing objectionable; nothing memorable, either. Was not impressed with build quality, esp. the rigging. Might find one with upgraded goodies. The Saturn of the small-boat world. They do have useful cuddies & stowage, unlike the Capri. They move acceptably off the wind; could never get one to point worth a hoot.

Your Flying Scot might be a good choice for Inlandgirl, if a bit long at 19'. (C'mon Kurt -- the Scot is a DPN 89. Hardly a brick! The Capri 14.2 is a 99.) Do you find it's hard to singlehand the Scot, just because of the long cockpit? As presently rigged, my (very similar) Bucc18 requires leaving the tiller to mess with halyards, cunninghams, jib furling, etc. It's a workout, & something for the OP to consider:

Nice having seats for guests or crew, but how often will they be used? Also, location of mainsheets, jib cars, centerboard trunk, etc, can really change the effective space in the cockpit. Mine is big, but cluttered. Boom-end sheeting could help free up room.


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*Even more thoughts ...*

I offered the O'Day again because it's a plentiful, inexpensive way to get into a small, open day sailer. I've never sailed one, so I'll defer to Bob for performance and handling insights. It just seems a little more user-friendly to me than the Potter, with its very small cockpit and very small cabin.

Thanks for the nice things said about the Scot, Bob ... I just hesitate to suggest it as the perfect answer to EVERY small boat question.  I love mine, and since everything except the halyards and cunningham are led well back in the cockpit, I can singlehand just fine ... I do have a heck of a long tiller extension, though.

If InlandGirl has biceps up to the challenge of winching 850 pounds up onto a trailer, it could be another route to take. Certainly roomy, forgiving, fun and built like a tank.

Kurt


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The FlyingScot is a bit heavier than she'd probably want, if it weighs in at 850 lbs., since the trailer is more than 150 lbs...


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## InlandGirl (Jul 10, 2007)

TSteele65 said:


> How about a nice Herreshoff 12.5?


In a perfect world, yes, absolutely: if I could afford a lake house to keep it at, I could probably afford one of those, too. They're beautiful...

So O'Day::Saturn....WWP::Mini Cooper. Car analogies, I get (I'm from Detroit). Can you all come up with some more? The Cadillac of small boats...the Accord...The PT Cruiser?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

In 1976 I bought an O'day Javelin (new) and sailed it on Lake Michigan. We lived near the east shore then, in SW Michigan. Mostly sailed singlehanded, found her to be stable enough that I could handle 20-25 knot wind alone. The Javelin is a tubby 14 footer, which I have had on the lake in 6-8 knot breeze with two adults and 4 kids. Admittedly, not the fastest, nor most thrilling ailboat, but I get the feeling Inlandgirl is not looking for a race! That or the O'day Daysailer (which I believe is 17 feet) would fit the weight, and I would not be afraid of the fact that they have been out of production for 25 years. A lot of parts of current day sailers would fit an O'day.
Perhaps I am predjudiced toward vintage hardware and slow sailing -- I currently sail a 1980 Endeavour 37!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The Moth Foiler would be the Dodge Viper RT of the bunch... 

BTW, doesn't really qualify as serene in any way whatsoever...

The Javelin 2 catamaran would be the Corvette of the bunch...


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*Dog is right ...*

The Flying Scot and trailer weigh in at about 1200 ... which is why I didn't suggest it until Bob started paying the boat compliments and I got all carried away. 

Kurt


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Poltergeist-

You're letting his compliments go to your head...


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## kennya (Jul 10, 2006)

The Venture 17 is a good boat to start with. Displacement of 800 lbs, small cabin for an overnight, easy to sail, and setup. Easley tailored behind even a subcompact car. I pulled one with and a German Opal with an automatic transmission, for several years. http://www.sailingtexas.com/cboats99venture.html


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Whoops! Didn't realize the Scot was so heavy. I saw one in a Sailing Texas video & said, Wow ... that seems a lot calmer to sail than my boat, even tho they are basically the same size, sail plan & hull shape. (That extra 350 lbs might be the reason why!) It looks like a splendid ride.

A shortened version of the Chrysler Bucc18 is the Mutineer 15-- basically the same boat with smaller canvas and the 3' lazarette sawn off. Active owner's group, cheap buy-in, lots of spare parts around. The Venture 17 suggestion is a good one.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, amazing what an extra 350 lbs. can do for an 19' boat.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Have any of you guy ever had any expirience with the vangaurd nomad.

http://www.teamvanguard.com/2007/boats/nomad/features.htm


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The Vanguard Nomad and Vanguard 15 both look like good choices for InlandSailor


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

On the question of certain boats being like certain cars, it occurs to me that when my 1978 Newport 17 is behind my 1996 (old style small) Honda Odyssey on each end I have a practical family hauler; the smallest thing I can safely haul us all around in for a day or maybe a weekend, not terribly fast or expensive, still small enough to be good for trips by myself and neither a head turner nor anything to be ashamed of. I am just a utilitatian living within my means (don't owe a dime on either one).


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

The Nomad sure has a lot of sail area for such a small boat, I don't know if I would call that "serene"


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

I'm more asking for my sake. Has any one sailed one.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

danjarch said:


> I'm more asking for my sake. Has any one sailed one.


Am curious, also. The specs are really odd on that boat -- 17 OAL with 8' beam? A very narrow centerboard, but 4' deep? Wonder if the "175 sqft" of sail includes the assym? Wager yes, judging by the photos.

Does the whole idea of an assym-on-bowsprit strike anyone else as an affectation here, like "These are the hot thing on Australian 18er racing foils, lets glom one onto our fambily daysailer!" It certainly blocks vision off the bow nicely. Does it offer so much performance gain over a genoa? On this craft? The Nomad is either the future of small-boat design, or a real platypus. I'd love to sail one & find out which.

ETA: Here ya go. The proper model for the Nomad, do ya think? Inlandgirl might consider one of these.... (I'll crew!)


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## InlandGirl (Jul 10, 2007)

bobmcgov said:


> The proper model for the Nomad, do ya think? Inlandgirl might consider one of these.... (I'll crew!)


Imagining myself on one of those is at least good for a laugh as I drink my morning coffee.

I'm interested to hear more about the Nomad, so don't take this as a thread-hijack. But today I'm looking fairly seriously at the American 14.6. (Sorry to slow things down so much, guys! But it's my first boat. Who knows, maybe I'll discover a long-latent need for speed...but I'm not counting on it.) So the American: anyone know about it first-hand? THere's a review from '99 here that knocks the design & quality pretty severely. Are these sorts of problems common? The more recent review is positive...and I don't imagine so many camps & schools would buy them if they weren't pretty well constructed. Thoughts?


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*Skiffs and American 14.6ers*

InlandGirl --

If you buy one of those skiffs, I wanna go out with you. I've lived a long and happy life, and that looks like an outrageous way to end it. God, those guys are insane.

Regarding the American 14.6 ... that looks like a nice option for you. I've never sailed one, but I just looked at an online review and judging from the sailing schools who use it as a trainer, I'd guess that you don't need to be overly concerned about build quality or sailability, stability and forgiveness.

Can you get a good deal?

Kurt


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

What, you don't want a Moth Foliler that will tip over if you look at it wrong??? 

I think the American 14.6 looks like a good compromise...between too slow and too unstable.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Is the Foiler a boat a plane?
That looks way too cool. 
How do they maintain steerage whan the boat is flying over the water?

Looks like the 18'skiff is a handfull even for a 3-man proffesional crew.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TJK-

it's a standard moth dinghy with hydrofoils attached... very unstable, and tends to drop off the foils very unexpectedly if you slow too much.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Looks like.......... fun.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Even though heavy and out of most people's price range for a 12 ft sailing dinghy, there's a warm place in my heart for the Herreshoff 12.5.

Took this pic of one (of many) in Edgartown Harbor:








If anyone knows of any for sale in southern New England - I'd be interested in having a look - even if it's a project boat. Not the reproductions, but original classics designed & built by Nathaniel Herreshoff in 1919, production ceased in 1939.

Must have this plate on the transom:


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

I know someone who just was given one, and might be putting it up for sale, since she has too many boats already... I don't know if it is an original or a copy... next time I'm down at her place I'll look at it. 
I think it is a copy though.


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## LakeEscape (Jul 18, 2007)

*Victoria 18*

Yes it's out of production, yes they do have some teak, yes they are a bit heavy, but yes they are beautiful, sail like a dream, 24 inch draft, single hand like cake and did I say, they are beautiful.

I just bought one for my girl friend's step dad. Purchased through eBay. I went to see the boat and gave it a thorough going over. We trailed the boat to her new home on a lake in Virginia that has a 19 foot rule, which explains the fleet of Flying Scots. Well dad is 70 and an FS is too much. While rigging the boat, at the ramp, about 10 people came up to us and complimented her lines and classic looks. Dad was grinning ear to ear.

You can find these boats now and then, and the price is usually pretty good. Aftermarket items are easy to find and we towed the boat behind a Rav4.

Check Interyacht and such. I know of one at a dealer in Memphis. She's in really good shape and reasonably priced.


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

TB - there's three or four on yachtworld right now (and it's actually 16ft LOA - 12 1/2 at the waterline)

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...100&city=&pbsint=&boatsAddedSelected=-1&ps=30


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Thanx TSteele - and as expected, the prices range from high teens to low twenties, with widely varying conditions. 

I've never sailed one, but since they were built in Bristol, RI - just a few miles away and having lived/boated along Narragansett Bay my entire life, I have long admired them.

Would be more of a hobby to find a sound one in need of some love (for a decent price) and make it into a winter garage project.


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## richard_reinhart (Aug 3, 2002)

*How about a Sea Pearl?*

It's a little bigger than what you described, but still lightweight; very shallow draft; and big enough for a small crowd. You can also buy a canvas "cabin" for limited overnights.

I haven't sailed one, but I've seen one on the hard and I think they're pretty cool. A friend kept one on the Georgia coast for many years and he loved it. He is quite knowledgeable as a sailor, and previously owned a Cape Dory 25; a J 21; and a Thistle. When he wanted something a little bigger than the Sea Pearl he bought a Pacific Seacraft Dana.

Check the website, which I think is marineconcepts.com.

Used I've seen these in nice shape for less than $6,000.


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## InlandGirl (Jul 10, 2007)

*Still looking...*



sailingdog said:


> I think the American 14.6 looks like a good compromise...between too slow and too unstable.


OK, I understand the slowness bit, but what makes it unstable?

And another inquiry -- there's a 1977 Mutineer for sale close to home. Anyone know about the construction of this boat and possible problems I should watch out for if I go to look at it? (How much wood is hidden inside that might be rotting?)


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

InLand Girl,

Would you consider something smaller, lighter, and more portable? Many of the boats suggested have a fair bit of heft to them. If you plan to trailer the boat solo, a heavy boat can be a lot to handle without help. There are many worthy but less well known designs that were not mass-produced. Some can be found on the used market if you know where to look ("Messing About in Boats" is one place to start). 

You might even consider getting plans or a kit and building one yourself over the winter months. Most of these are built of epoxy-wood-composite construction, so tend to be much lighter than comparable-sized fibreglass boats. For instance, our 11.5 ' CLC Passagemaker Dinghy weighs in around 125 lbs (well over the spec of 95 lbs -- we overbuilt ours) and the Trailex aluminum trailer weighs about the same, for a combined towing weight of around 250 lbs. One person can roll the rig around easily by hand. 

Just a suggestion since you say you're "still looking".


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## InlandGirl (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestions, JRP. The difficulty is -- and I imagine this is true for most people looking to buy -- is that there are 2 rather different situations I would use the boat in, and I'm trying to find a good compromise. Summertime, I'd be sailing with one or two other people (a parent...a sibling...possibly also a small niece or nephew). For this, key characteristics are a roomy cockpit, stability, and at least a bit of responsiveness in order to keep the experienced sailors interested. I can't get a totally boring boat and expect the mackinac race veteran to want to help me sail it; on the other hand, I don't want a racing dinghy, just something that is not a total brick. Obviously, the "experienced sailors" do not include me, at least not yet; but as it happens, I'm the only one in a position to buy a boat at the moment. Spring and fall, I would be mostly singlehanding, so I want something I can rig easily, that is somewhat forgiving of mistakes, and that I can right without too much trouble when I capsize it, which I hope would not be very often. I would only need to trailer it a few times a year, since I will be able to keep the boat in (very shallow) water in both places. A 14 footer really seems to be the minimum size for relative comfort, but I don't want to go too much bigger than that, or it begins to get unwieldy. 

And yes, I realize these are mostly contradictory notions, and the ideal boat probably does not exist...but I still have hopes.

Building one of my own sounds like a project for rather later in life, i.e., when I have a house with a garage!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

InlandGirl said:


> OK, I understand the slowness bit, but what makes it unstable?
> 
> And another inquiry -- there's a 1977 Mutineer for sale close to home. Anyone know about the construction of this boat and possible problems I should watch out for if I go to look at it? (How much wood is hidden inside that might be rotting?)


I wasn't referring to the American 14.6 as unstable... the unstable bit comes from the design of most of the racing oriented sailboats, which are very light, over-powered and generally not all that stable...capsizing almost every time you look at them wrong.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Here is some info on the Mutineer:










http://www.mutineer15.org


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

*Ooh ooh, this one I can help with*

The Mutineer (aka the Mutt) is simply a Buccaneer18 (my boat) with three feet sawn off the transom. The lazarette is gone and sailplan reduced 25 sqft, but otherwise the boats are identical.

That means it will sit six, heel pretty hard, and move fairly fast (tho not nearly as fast as the Bucc.) In 1977, Chrysler was still the builder: It's a moderately solid boat, with some issues. How useable it is for you will depend on the maintenance and mods by previous owner(s). These boats singlehand, but it can require hard work in higher winds. Here's a checklist you could take with you if you look at the Mutt:

1) Has the mast been converted to a stepped/tabernacle for easy raising? (This may not matter to you.)
2) The original stowage/cuddy covers are garbage; see if positive flotation has been added, and how competently. Poor-sealing compartments + no foam = sinky boat.
3) The only rottable wood in the whole boat is inside the centerboard trunk and the transom. Both can be inspected from above. The CB itself can be hard to see -- and hard to remove if it needs glassing. Ask if the CB has been converted for removing from above -- a common mod. The deck is not cored -- but walk on it & see if it crackles too much.
4) The original forestay/jib furler arrangement was via Hyfield lever under the deck and a tubular jib luff. It sucked. Better is the wire-luff jib and a spool-furler: jib halyard tension is achieved via 4:1 downhaul ('magic box') on the mast. See if it is so.
5) Long cockpit. For singlehanding, the jibsheets, centerboard controls, etc. should be led waaaay back near the tiller. This is NOT a boat you want to scramble around in when the winds blows up.
6) Original round cockpit bailers tend to leak. Mine are fine; some have been rebuilt or replaced with Andersons.
7) Hiking straps -- not optional.
8) Rudder. This is a big one. The original Chryslers had a baroque cast-aluminum rudder head & crappy gudgeons that always failed. Happily, they also lacked a good retainer clip, so most of them sank during capsizes and were lost. The newer rudder head should look like a couple big slabs of drilled-out aluminum. Ensure that it has a retaining ring and solid pintles.

*shrug* Otherwise, it's a burly little boat that fills the gap between daysailor and racing dinghy. That's what I wanted in the Bucc, too. It can be sailed VERY hard, but put some weight on the seats and it settles right down.

Condition matters, but mebbe not so much on a thirty-year old Chrysler. I wouldn't pay more than $1000 with newer sails, $700 with the original Vectors. Luck!


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

*Btw*

In your lighter airs, the Mutt is faster than most. Bucc has a taller mast, goes quite well in no discernible wind. 7-8" draft. It planes easier than any boat I've ever sailed, and that includes Lasers. Mutt will plane less -- shorter back end. Pounds a bit upwind.

Check the keel, about one foot ahead of the centerboard slot. These boats have a weak spot there, and trailer rollers tend to punch holes in them.

Mutts and Buccs have among the biggest & most active class associations in the US. Many social & racing events. Bucc owners love our little Mutters; they are always invited to the party, and vice versa. Both boats are still in production, now under Nickels Boat Works. Parts easy to find.

Fun, yes. Not sure about 'serene.'


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

InlandGirl,

Yes, that's a tall order you pose, but keep looking and you'll find the right boat. If you haven't perused the offerings at Vanguard, you might do so:

http://www.teamvanguard.com/2007/index.htm

Another one is Gig Harbor Boat Works:

http://www.ghboats.com/compare.shtm

Also, if you like traditional, I always put in a plug for Crawford Boatbuilding since they are in my hometown:

http://www.melonseed.com/

Finally, don't rule out building one yourself so quickly -- it's not as hard as it sounds. If you don't have the space, you could make a vacation of it and attend a course at one of the many boatbuilding schools around the country. Wooden Boat School in Maine (http://www.thewoodenboatschool.com/index.html) and Chesapeake Light Craft in Annapolis (http://www.clcboats.com/clc_boatbuildingclasses.php) are two that I'm familiar with, but there are others.

Good luck to you!


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## InlandGirl (Jul 10, 2007)

This board is really a bonanza of information! Cheers, all.

The local Mutineer turned out to be a little too worn for my tastes, but I'm sure it will make someone willing to do a bit of fixing-up very happy. 

I love the little handcrafted boats as well: they really have character! 

One more inquiry: any opinions on the Abbott Wayfarer (16')? It's a little larger than I had intended to buy, but there seem to be lots of them in the area I'm looking (Great Lakes).


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

West Wight Potter..


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*Wayfarer ... nice*

I wasn't familiar with this boat until I Googled it. Very nice. Intelligent design by Ian Proctor (although that thwart amidships looks like shin bruises waiting to happen), roomy cockpit, less than 400 lbs., so it won't be a killer to launch. And since there seem to be many around you, catching a free ride on one to see if it works for you will be easier. I'd give it a serious look ... seems like a righteous choice to me.

Kurt


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

The Wayfarer has a loyal following in the UK, where they take them on some very ambitious voyages. Also, there was an article a decade or two ago in I beleive it was Sail magazine (maybe Cruising World) about a young couple that camp-cruised one up the coast of Newfoundland to the Labrador. As I recall they had equipped it with a sliding seat rowing arrangement for when they were becalmed along that rugged coastline. I think they also carried a rifle for polar bears. [EDIT: Upon further reflection, they may actually have taken an O'Day DaySailor (DS) -- sorry I'm getting old].

There have also been quite a few articles in "Messing About in Boats" over the years concerning Wayfarer meets in the US. Neat, rugged boats -- and if they are popular in your area that certainly says something about them.


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## drynoc (Jul 17, 2001)

*American Sail*

No one seems to have dealt with the American Sail boats, so here goes:

They are used in sail training courses in the marina where I keep my boat, so I spent some decent time in them when I was getting back in the game after 25 years away. The ones that I sailed (14.6 and 18) were older and hadn't been well cared for, but they were simple, not bad sailors, and not too tippy. But you do have to pay some attention to weight distribution, because I saw some of the novices come back from their sailing excursions soaking wet, and it wasn't because of waves over the bow. They handle three to four adults fairly well. I would say that these boats meet your criteria of being small and serene, and they don't cost much, by boat standards.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

By the way, Tenuki, that is a gorgeous photo of the Potters. The colors are amazing. Are they yours?


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

JohnRPollard said:


> By the way, Tenuki, that is a gorgeous photo of the Potters. The colors are amazing. Are they yours?


Nope, off their website. Seems people either hate or love the look of them. One guy took a potter up to Alaska with his dog, so apparently you can use em for cruising too. There's one in the Edmonds marina that has a dinghy sitting in it, the dinghy takes up the whole deck. lol.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The guy who designed the Potter, IIRC, sailed one from England to Sweden for a customer delivery... talk about a tough trip. 


tenuki said:


> Nope, off their website. Seems people either hate or love the look of them. One guy took a potter up to Alaska with his dog, so apparently you can use em for cruising too. There's one in the Edmonds marina that has a dinghy sitting in it, the dinghy takes up the whole deck. lol.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Potters were on my list until I found some of the capsize stories. They turtle and don't self right. Even when righted, they generally need to be towed in and drained. Do some searches and you will find stories. They are at sites about Potters and the people who had the experiences generally still love the boats, so there must be something special about them. They are also one of the few pocket cruisers I should expect to outrun.


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## Andyman (Jul 20, 2007)

InlandGirl said:


> The Wayfarer gets the nod! I won't actually take possession for a few days yet, but I was able to find a well-maintained, fully updated boat at the right price. It looks like it will not be too unforgiving as I learn, but it should also be a lot of fun when I am ready (spinnaker and all).
> 
> Actually, the whole idea of ME owning a boat is a little terrifying, when I think of it. I have never done anything so frivolous in my entire life.
> 
> It is, however, a great motivation for not quitting my job.


My first and still my only boat is a 72 Aquarius 23 footer. Never sailed a day in my life and this boat seemed huge to me. But I got it and a dual axle trailer for $3500 and the boat was ready to go in the water. Out on the lake one day with a friend and the next day I was sailing with the mail. I'm no pro by any means but it is a boat that is easily handled. Very sturdy in the water with lots of cabin room and a nice cockpit. there's a good Yahoo group of Aquarius owners and many parts are available if you just look for them...not that much goes wrong.  I eventually want to move up past a 34 footer but for now, this is a good boat for me. I love sailing!!!

Andy


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