# Sailing in Decline



## sailpb (Nov 6, 2011)

What is up with sailing? The following chart https://sites.google.com/site/palmbeachsailing/represents the decline in frequency of the term 'sailing' entered into Google searches since 2004 - usually a good marker of interest and awareness of a particular topic. What is up and how can interest be improved?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Well, there's that pesky "recession" thing, and the whole 9.1% unemployment thing that might be slowing it down a little...


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## sailpb (Nov 6, 2011)

Interestingly, the decline started prior to the recession.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

too many "sitters" wishing, and not enough "doers" who will actually get out there and physically DO something....

I think you would find that other activities will have followed the same path, if they too require effort.


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## sailpb (Nov 6, 2011)

I did look at several activities and they follow similar trends. If the doer/sitter trend is true - I wonder why this is so? Maybe the proliferation of media?? For what it's worth, the trend for the term 'couch potato' has been on the increase slightly in the same time period. LOL


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Cost is growing as a percentage of disposable income. Same in aviation.

The ratio is being hurt from both sides, cost and income. 

Further, in household budgets, cars for every member of the family, cell phones, cable TV, Internet access, etc are all lowering disposable income. These are now considered necessities by most that past generations were not burdened by.


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## sailpb (Nov 6, 2011)

Interesting, true, and related to the doer/sitter and media proliferation ideas. However, trends for those terms were relatively stable or declining in the same time period.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

*Another Possible Theory*

In 2004, if I was looking for something sailing related on the net I would google "Sailing". Now I bypass the search and go directly to the sites I know.

But, sailing will never be as mainstream as say jet skiing, bicycling etc.


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## sailpb (Nov 6, 2011)

This may be true as well. Maybe people have just become more inclined to go directly to the sites they know rather than using Google - as the web has grown up. Never thought of that.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

In terms of numbers of people actually getting into the sport, based on sources like US Sailing and BoatUS, the high point in sailing has generally been seen as the 1970's and the sport has declining since. That said there have been small increases in sailing which have occurred for external reasons. One of these blips occured in the mid- 2000's as fuel prices increased and boomers began to think about retirement perhaps on sailboats. Those of us in construction related industries began to see the decline in the economy in 2007 and consequently some of the optimism which fueled the mid 2000's blip would have wained and begun the decline (or what I would call the return to normal) in the sail side of the boating industry.


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## sailpb (Nov 6, 2011)

Hmmm. So, the 2004 high I'm seeing is actually a spike in interest within a longer term decline. Very informative. Makes me wonder how to either stave off decline. My club has camps for kids - but I wonder what are some alternative strategies for getting adults into sailing?


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Affordable marinas being bought up, turned into condos, private residences or worse... Brewers 

Water front property with public access being eaten up quicker than rainforests

Insurance costs in some states

For example: Winter storage fees in my area can vary by 100%. That's crazy. Some yards (the little guys) charges 900 and others up to 1800, or essentially the same product. Slip or mooring fees also have crazy ranges, but, of course swimming pools and putting greens are excuses to charge double for a slip.
If you don't have the luxury of doing business with one of the little guys, and you are middle class on a budget, it could be a deal breaker.

Big corporate entities are chomping at the bit to buy or lease every marina they can.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

The decline was also fueled by switch from sail to power by people that were 'just too busy' to sail, couldn't give up the water and moved to powerboats (some also due to age, health). The marina I worked in for most of the 80's had 1200 slips and year after year we were commissioning more new power and fewer sail. Add in proliferation of cheap power packages on trailers, jet skis, cost of new boats & equipment, sail/power chartering in lieu of ownership, a couple of recessions, increasing self-entitlement mentality for all the stuff Minnewaska points out, disposable vs commitment frame of mind with multitaskers, lack of hands on skills (so many of my house clients don't know/have no interest in home skills & call dad to build a fence, deck, change a tap) to do maintenance - OOPS! Now I'm ranting . . .


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

This is good for those of us who are still interested in sailing. Slips are less expensive, boats are less expensive, and there are fewer folks (particularly dangerous novices) out on the water. 

While I am sympathetic to the people working in the marine industries who have been hurt by the slow down, this seems to be a net benefit to those of us who still enjoy sailing.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Although I focused my response on the economy, there isn't one thing said so far, that I disagree with. All of these are impediments to the growth of sailing. 

The economy is definitely an issue though for a decline in boating overall. I saw a lot of powerboats that never moved from their lifts and slips all season. The shrinkwrap came off, and then went back on with no movement at all.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

As the population ages participation in most active sports has decreased. 

Elimination of Blue Laws has made Sunday the most popular shopping day; 105,000 people visit a nearby shopping center on a typical Sunday. In the 70's those folks would have been available for for enforced recreation.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Cost is growing as a percentage of disposable income. Same in aviation.
> 
> The ratio is being hurt from both sides, cost and income.
> 
> Further, in household budgets, cars for every member of the family, cell phones, cable TV, Internet access, etc are all lowering disposable income. These are now considered necessities by most that past generations were not burdened by.


This is one of the three issues. The second issue is time. The Gen X and subsequent generations are too busy trying to provide for their families they don't have time to engage in the sailing lifestyle. The third issue is money. Folks my generation (Gen X) and younger just don'thave the money the previous generations enjoyed.


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## CALIX (Jun 6, 2011)

I may have missed it, but I think there's also the issue of time away from work - the work that one dearly clings to and is thankful to have if you do these days. I am the only one in my office doing my job nowadays and that makes it harder to get away and/or take a long(er) absences.


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## redfishnc (Jan 22, 2017)

*Sailing Decline*

If I remember correctly we all were novices and need more novices interested to maintain the interest. A decline is usually not good for anyone's hobbies. There were numerous slips built in my area in the last 10 years, many in front of waterfront condos where the owners cared nothing about them other than a source of income. The marina I am in was an old sailboat yard bought out to sell slips. The recession has only made matters worse for the marina owners. If they can't make money then the developers are waiting for waterfront property. Personnally I want to interest people but the dollar investment that continues throughout ownership hampers many, including me. My boat is owned by me and the expense of ownership including slip, yearly bottom maintenance and misc. items is easily more than $5500. In my household, old and debt free, that is still a chunk.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

There have been several references here to waterfront access being bought up and made inaccessible.

Before I bought my sailboat, I never gave that much thought because I always used a public boat ramp for my little powerboat. I have to say, I've never been one to throw the "class warfare" card, but it certainly does seem like stagnant income, increasing costs and real estate development are really forcing average people off of the water.

The only way I'm able to own and maintain a 30 foot sailboat, is because I purchased a home in a very old neighborhood (1940's & 50's), that "owns" a tiny beach, and a boat dock. The community beach club is comprised of elected property owners who administer the property. Annual dues to access the property are dirt-cheap.

The zoning laws are strict and probably won't be changed in my lifetime, and to my knowledge, neither the community nor the beach club administrators are allowed to sell the waterfront property.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

I think we're also forgetting one thing....sailing/boating is a lot of work!! Between provisioning, boat maintenance, upgrades, routine maintenance, I spend *VASTLY* more time on my boat working than on my boat sailing/relaxing.

As I get older, this worries me as I wont be able to do the work myself and outsourcing it gets expensive. Technology really hasn't kept up in reducing the work required to own a boat. Cars, on the other hand, get easier to maintain every year. 

Crude example: My first car required an oil change every 3,000 miles and a tune-up every 3 years. My newest car can go 10,000 miles before an oil change and 100,000 miles before a tuneup with 4 years of maintenance included. I no longer have to spend saturdays changing my oil and checking spark plug gaps. 

But, i sure as hell spend many a saturday upside down in some hard to reach crevasse in my boat fixing some blasted piece of unreliable kit (like a freshwater pump). Its amazing how an entire day can be spent fixing the boat rather than just sailing it. 

Boat makers need to acknowledge this...GET THE TIME TO UPKEEP ON A BOAT DOWN!!!


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## CaptFoolhardy (Sep 5, 2009)

kd3pc said:


> too many "sitters" wishing, and not enough "doers" who will actually get out there and physically DO something....
> 
> I think you would find that other activities will have followed the same path, if they too require effort.


If this were the case I would expect the opposite trend on Google. "Doers" would be too busy "doing" to sit in front of the computer and Google about it. "Sitters wishing" on the other hand....prime Google customers.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> This is good for those of us who are still interested in sailing. Slips are less expensive, boats are less expensive, and there are fewer folks (particularly dangerous novices) out on the water.
> 
> While I am sympathetic to the people working in the marine industries who have been hurt by the slow down, this seems to be a net benefit to those of us who still enjoy sailing.


Completely agree, it's a total mystery to me why anyone other than those within "the industry" would want to "promote" sailing/recreational boating to the adult population... What, there aren't enough freakin' boats out on the water already? (grin)

Getting KIDS into sailing, however, is a completely different ballgame - I can't think of anything better, and that's what we adults should be focusing on... Starting people early, in small boats, having more a more competent generation of sailors on the water in the future will benefit us all in the long run...

On a related note, I wound up diverting to Bermuda yesterday morning instead of continuing on to Antigua, primarily based on Herb Hilgenberg's concern that another tropical low similar to Sean might form off to the east of our track... We were the first of about 2 dozen boats to arrive in St. George's yesterday, and scored pole position in front of the White Horse Tavern...










Absolutely mind boggling, how many of those boats arrived with NO CHARTS WHATSOEVER for Bermuda, and had to be given waypoints and talked in by Bermuda Harbor Radio...

Start kids out in Optis and Lasers, and I'll bet not one of them will grow up having more money than they know what to do with, decide to take up the Kroozing "Lifestyle", and do anything as dumbass as making a passage from the East coast to the islands without carrying a chart for Bermuda... (grin)


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Yamsailor said:


> This is one of the three issues. The second issue is time. The Gen X and subsequent generations are too busy trying to provide for their families they don't have time to engage in the sailing lifestyle. The third issue is money. Folks my generation (Gen X) and younger just don'thave the money the previous generations enjoyed.


Depending on who you ask, I belong to either the tail end of the boomers or leading edge of GenX.

The comment that GenX is worse off than previous generations is one I've heard before. When I do, I like to ask them to take a hard look at their situation. For example how many tv's are in their house vs their parents. How many computers? Cell phones? Paid programming like cable/xm etc? Its likely you own as many or more vehicles than your parents as well. Our generation sees a plethora of items that were luxuries for our parents as bare necessities. Many that didn't exist in our parents time.

I just don't think its true that the current generation is worse off than those that came before and therefore doesn't help explain the decline in recreational passtimes.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

My son is in his 30's. What surprises me is how much time parents spend running their kids around for baseball, football, soccer, etc.

I know some people who are tied up more with running kids to sports today then we were as coaches 15 years ago. That's going to impact your time and energy to do anything else on weekends -- including time spent on the water with your kids.

Here's another question. How do new boat prices for mid-size family boats today compare with prices from 15 or 20 years ago as a percentage of income?


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## redfishnc (Jan 22, 2017)

Slips are available everywhere in SE North Carolina. Prices are negotiable (to some extent) at many locations, the closer to Masonboro Inlet the more expensive the slips tend to be. Boat ramps for small boat launching is a stampede. The state of NC has offerred up money to help buy additional waterfront property for new ramps. I have my sailboat in a marina and you have to love the atmosphere. On the other hand I dread putting my 17' flats boat in at any local ramp unless I intend to go by 6:00am, tremendous incentive to get out there early. So the boaters are still entering the market, mostly the affordable and less effort market. Somedays I agree with them... (did I mention I am 61). I still walk every marina that I visit and have yet to see a boat I don't enjoy looking over, even the junkers.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Hudsonian said:


> As the population ages participation in most active sports has decreased.


I think this is a really good point. Trends in sailing can only be discussed in comparison with trends in similar areas.



JonEisberg said:


> Completely agree, it's a total mystery to me why anyone other than those within "the industry" would want to "promote" sailing/recreational boating to the adult population... What, there aren't enough freakin' boats out on the water already?


Mostly agree as well. It's really hard to get a slip around here and anchorages are always full on the good weekends.

On the other hand, if sailing weren't popular, businesses that provided products and services for sailors would grow scarce. Surely my local sailing consignment shop would disappear. This would drive up prices and generally make sailing less affordable, which is bad for me (though certainly not for all sailors).


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

midlifesailor said:


> Depending on who you ask, I belong to either the tail end of the boomers or leading edge of GenX.
> 
> The comment that GenX is worse off than previous generations is one I've heard before. When I do, I like to ask them to take a hard look at their situation. For example how many tv's are in their house vs their parents. How many computers? Cell phones? Paid programming like cable/xm etc? Its likely you own as many or more vehicles than your parents as well. Our generation sees a plethora of items that were luxuries for our parents as bare necessities. Many that didn't exist in our parents time.
> 
> I just don't think its true that the current generation is worse off than those that came before and therefore doesn't help explain the decline in recreational passtimes.


Well, Compared to to what my parents had:

My house is 1/3 the square footage;
They had two cars, I have one
They had three TVs; I have one
They had cable, I have cable

Their incomes at my age were at least twice what mine are today. Their cost to put me through college was 20% of what it is today (in inflation adjusted dollars). My health care costs are quadruple compared to what they paid (in inflation adjusted dollars); There retirement plans were more solid that anyones plan is today. Need I say more?


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

JimMcGee said:


> My son is in his 30's. What surprises me is how much time parents spend running their kids around for baseball, football, soccer, etc.
> 
> I know some people who are tied up more with running kids to sports today then we were as coaches 15 years ago. That's going to impact your time and energy to do anything else on weekends -- including time spent on the water with your kids.
> 
> Here's another question. How do new boat prices for mid-size family boats today compare with prices from 15 or 20 years ago as a percentage of income?


Good point. I think the question should be: How do new boat prices for mid-size family boats today compare with prices from 15 or 20 years ago as a percentage of *disposable* income?


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Yamsailor said:


> Well, Compared to to what my parents had:
> 
> My house is 1/3 the square footage;
> They had two cars, I have one
> ...


Your parents must have been on the wealthier end of the spectrum while you grew up and give you a great lifestyle. Definitely upper middle class if you grew up in the 80s/70s or earlier. Sorry you're not matching it...such is life. What did they do professionally vs what do you do?

Not every kid in the next generation can meet their parents lifestyle. By and large though, Gen-X is living better than their parents generation. The Millenials/Gen-Y have reason to be worried though...they grew up in the 90s/2000 in an era that probably was the peak of US wealth/influence. Its going to be tough to match their youth lifestyle in todays environment. By an large though...Americans are a bit spoiled. We lived well and its tough to give it back. Remember, our parents generation also suffered through the energy crisis, double digit inflation/stagflation, crack epidemic, white flight and destruction of the major cities of the country, as well as interest rates in the teens for mortgages! We all have our crosses to bear.

I'm a gen-x guy (tail end of it) that is grew up in a white-collar, but financially tight home (4 kids, mom stayed home). I can say that I am living better than my parents. They would *NEVER* have thought about buying a boat, it was the plaything of the rich in their time.


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## patrscoe (May 9, 2011)

I think everyone agrees that there has been an extensive downturn in sailing in the past years. Although there are minor exceptions with young sailors trying to break records by sailing around world but overall, there are less younger children getting involved in sailing which results in less interest in the activity as adults. The poor economy and recession does not help. 

I use to skip school and go sailing for the day on our little 16 footer (I don't tell my children this). It was always obvious the next day as I went to school tanner then the previous day. 

Yes, it is sad that less and less people are interested in sailing and there so many reasons why but we are privileged that we are able to do this and most importantly, able to remove our children from the day to day activities of schools, friends, video games, etc... have them enjoy sailing and small adventures, and hopefully they will become sailing enthusiast, or at least have nice childhood memories. 

A very good read "Saving Sailing" which goes through some of the reasons why sailing has declined from the 70's to now.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

I've had 15 days off in the last 12 months, that may have something to do with it.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

Good discussion... I could respond to many of the points made, but having grown up in Las Vegas, I can't put my finger on the pulse of the sailing community. But as a parent in a suburban, landlocked community, I can confirm what one poster said about carting kids around to sports and other activities. Every weekend is mapped out like a detailed chart plotter. With multiple kids at multiple ages comes delicate logistics and rarely are there any days that aren't accounted for. It's a simple factor of things like sailing (or hiking, or skiing) dropping down the priority list. I am 44 and when I was a kid, we had time to kill. Not so much anymore. Kids today are booked solid. Therein, I think, lies the difference.


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## Leftbrainstuff (Apr 26, 2011)

*Sailing in Decline?*

Using Google to measure the popularity of sailing is not statistically relevant as keyword search is quickly abandoned for less noisy and more useful means to find information.

You also need to consider other related search terms, social media forums, sales data, etc and direct communication between sailors to be able to answer your question.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

It's really not a very popular sport...period. I have to concur with a previous poster who cited parents being so involved in their kid's activities. When I was a kid in the 50's and 60's, parents ruled. The weekend came around, and we were going on the boat (happened to be a powerboat). The parents met up with their boater friends and did parent stuff. The kids had to find their own fun. Seemed to work out pretty well.

Now I see so many families that are run by the kids. In a "kid run" family, dominated by the kid's planned activities, there is no way a day on a sailboat is going to work. Gotta be back at 2:00 if we're going to make it to the soccer game (in a neighboring city!).

Divorce is probably another factor. I can tell you from first hand experience that a divorced mom is on a huge guilt trip and the kids are going to do what they want to do, and a whole day on a sailboat isn't on the list. 

Society has changed in some other ways. I used to snow ski as a kid, and it was all about getting down the hill competently and with some style. Now, there seems to be a big emphasis on "tricks" on snowboards. Dirt bikes used to be fun...I used to do enduros and spend hours cruising the trails, but if you turn on the TV, it's all about jumps and flips and tricks. It's all "extreme". Yeah, I sound like the old guy. But where does sailing fit in with that culture. Jet skis sure, but not sailing.

Others have cited expense, but what if you compare jet ski sails to daysailor sales. No contest. Too much of an "instant society".


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Good discussion! I think there are many, many factors contributing to the decline but it is certainly true. The population is older and people are busier. Certainly by kids do not have the disposable income I had at their age (~30) and I was a high school teacher so not rich.

A couple of other factors that may apply to southern Ontario where I am from. Our yacht club has always had lots of members who had immigrated to Canada from Britain, Germany, and Holland. What do all these places have in common? They are full of sailors so they became mainstays in the sailing community here. Most of these people are now in their late 60s at least because western European immigration dried up a long time ago. Now most of our immigrants come from China, India, and other parts of Asia. What do these folks have in common - no tradtion of sailing (or really any other recreational activity other than sports like badminton, basketball, table tennis, and cricket - which have all grown greatly in southern Ontario). Now many of these immigrants are finding themselves well-established and with extra time and money and are looking for something to do. Who is getting them? Golf. Sailing has not made the connection into these ethnic communities to any great extent although my wife is a Chinese immigrant and now world sailor and we have had a Chinese immigrant commodore - these examples are few.

Another issue is cost related to the kind of boats people start with. We had friends at the marina we were at in Jersey City who were on their first boat - the smallest of the three was a Sabre 40 and dockage was almost $10k a year. Easy to see that this would limit access. I started with an 11' English dinghy kit called a Mirror. Cost something like $339 for everything but the paint and came with two books: How to Build the boat and How to Sail it. Could keep it in the garage and stick it on top of the car to take sailing anywhere you wanted to go. Mirrors brought hundreds of adults into sailing in southern Ontario each year in the very early 70s. Now entry boats are a minimum of 22' and you need a dock and yard costs etc. Small boats would help get people into the sport.

Finally, someone mentioned junior programs in yacht clubs. We have had one for decades but I don't think it has added a whole lot of permanent sailors since most of the kids would do sailing one summer and then soccer camp another. We have had adult learn to sail courses on Tanzer 22s and they have proven much more productive in getting the club new members. If someone joins the club the cost of lessons is applied to their initiation fees.

Someone mentioned


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There is a propensity for our youngest generation to compare their lifestyle when they lived with their parents, to that they can afford when they are first on their own. When I left my parents home, I had to sell some personal belongings and cancel subscriptions just to afford a car to get to work. They owned a boat.

By comparison, I went to college in a flop house environment and my kids attended a country club environment. They are dismayed that real life isn't as easy. 

I do agree that they have inherited a messed up health care system and its costs.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Leftbrainstuff said:


> Using Google to measure the popularity of sailing is not statistically relevant as keyword search is quickly abandoned for less noisy and more useful means to find information.


I disagree. In fact, in a sense that's an advantage of google search trends. If you assume that most people who are interested in something and don't know where to get information will use Google until they find reliable regular sources of information, then Google searches give a good measure of the number of people who've recently become interested in sailing.

That information is definitely statistically relevant. If new interest is increasing but existing interest is waning faster, then sailing has a retention problem. If new interest is declining but existing interest is stable, then sailing has a marketing problem.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailpb said:


> What is up with sailing? The following chart https://sites.google.com/site/palmbeachsailing/represents the decline in frequency of the term 'sailing' entered into Google searches since 2004 - usually a good marker of interest and awareness of a particular topic. What is up and how can interest be improved?


Meh.

http://www.google.com/insights/search/#cat=0&q=ocean racing&geo=&gprop=&cmpt=q

http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=sail around the world&cmpt=q


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

I hear the same comments (and they're true) on the motor cycle forum I'm a member of. MC sales are dropping across most of the spectrum and the demographic is getting older. Suzuki actually skipped a year of imports to let the retailers catch up. The trend started before the the downturn. Same in general aviation. It's not just the economy. It's a _contributing _factor the same way human generated carbon emissions are contributing, not the cause of global warming.

Offer a kid a Macbook pro or a minibike and see which he chooses. A 50" LED TV and an Xbox or an Opti hmmm...

Now in my case I find myself at 53 with a sailboat and a motorcycle after 30 years without. The low prices for sail away condition boats made it easy as well as winning the MC in a raffle.
I did put both my kids in sailing camp against their wishes a few years ago. By the 2nd day they loved it. And they do love to sail as a family now. I don't know if they'll stay with sailing as they get older but at least I planted the seed.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

Good link, smack, but not all sailors are ocean racers. Another thing that may throw off numbers regarding google searches are the proliferation of smart phones. Once we have an app, it's a button push. I wonder if the stats are relative to search engine use in general.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm sailing now because I sailed when I was 10 and got hooked. You've got to get kids into small dinghy sailing. But for that you need sheltered bodies of water. All over CA (seen it in Oregon too) you can see the abandoned piers and buildings of sailing clubs in the reservoirs. I think some were shut down after 9/11.

In the southern part of SF bay there used to be a number of access points that fell into disuse. Alviso was neglected until it was unusable. Mountain View marina was shut down by a vindictive council. However the trend seems to be reversing : Alviso boat ramp was just rebuilt. Redwood City's boat ramp just got a $1m re-fit. Mountain View now has a small boat launch pier allowing south bay access.

It seems that the sailing club at Lake Vasona has started up again. Hopefully this trend will continue, and when they grow up, maybe those kids will buy cruisers!

Having said that, I put "dinghy sailing" in as a search term.

http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=dinghy sailing&cmpt=q

Look at the difference in interest between the UK and the US.

Out of interest, I tried "ice cream"

http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=ice cream&cmpt=q


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

midlifesailor said:


> Depending on who you ask, I belong to either the tail end of the boomers or leading edge of GenX.
> 
> The comment that GenX is worse off than previous generations is one I've heard before. When I do, I like to ask them to take a hard look at their situation. For example how many tv's are in their house vs their parents. How many computers? Cell phones? Paid programming like cable/xm etc? Its likely you own as many or more vehicles than your parents as well. Our generation sees a plethora of items that were luxuries for our parents as bare necessities. Many that didn't exist in our parents time.
> 
> I just don't think its true that the current generation is worse off than those that came before and therefore doesn't help explain the decline in recreational passtimes.


 My place Parents

TV's 1 4
Computers 1 1
Cell Phones 1 2 (one smart phone)
Ground line 0 1
Cable 0 full subscription
XM 0 1
Vehicles 1 2
Pensions 0 2

Remember the old adage about the price of your house being equal to 3 years of gross income? Ha! Around here it's at least 5 (if you find a deal) with 2 professional incomes, or one Microsoft and some side income. There's no doubt in my mind that younger people that aren't getting inter-generational help are NOT doing nearly as well as their parent at the same age even if they're in the same profession.

The one thing that young sailors in this area are doing though is buying, repairing, and racing smaller old keel boats like the SC 27, Olson 30, and the like. Even in the sailing community here, I don't know anyone under 40 who even for a moment considers a new boat. Thankfully there's a load of great old ones around, but the experience one needs to figure out what's wheat and what chafe assumes a lifetime of knowledge.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

rbrasi said:


> Good link, smack, but not all sailors are ocean racers. Another thing that may throw off numbers regarding google searches are the proliferation of smart phones. Once we have an app, it's a button push. I wonder if the stats are relative to search engine use in general.


This pretty much hits the nail on the head.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

puddinlegs said:


> This pretty much hits the nail on the head.


As a control I tried putting in some basics like water, food, sky, ground, and so on. They produce flat lines. So I don't think less searching is the issue. Ice cream certainly is not waning in popularity...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

rbrasi said:


> Good link, smack, but not all sailors are ocean racers.


True. My point is that there _is_ interest...it's just maybe a different vein than the generality shown in the OP. Back to Adam's point about "marketing" - and, I think, generational interests.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

if sailing reaally is in decline ................ Maybe my marina will start treating me better.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

1. Sailing require work. I think it is just too much work for most people today...everything is instant gratification. 

2. Most people have the perception you have to be rich to have a sailboat. no one believes I have a 30ft sailboat in overall good sailable condition for less that $6,000. if you look at new 30ft sailboat your looking at starting at $100k...who would ever buy used...as if.....

3. unless you were introduced to it young it can be intimidating. i get all the time" you have a sailboat? where'd you learn how to sail?" many young kids, adults 35 below today have been introduced to it....ever. kids today have no interest in playing with a 16ft hobie when the new call of duty just came out or they might miss a post on facebook....god forbid!

4. I dont think there an decrease in boating per say...look at PWC they are everywhere....again instant gratification....in, out, back in the driveway....gone. on to the next thing. a short day sail requires about 25minutes to prep the boat and 45-1hr to put it away! who has time for that. Not many young folks at my marina. I am one of the younger guys i see and i am 36. 

5. asking on sailing forum is gonna procuce very biased opinions but if you ask around the office...no one has time for anything anymore....busy going here doing this, game here, boyscout there....yadayada yada

these are my opinions and they are worthless just thought i share


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

My other hobby is Field trialing... A "similar" trend is happening... started thereabout the same time... popularity peaked in 1970s. 

That has an initial cost hurdle. Gotta have horses, and dogs, and time to train, blah blah... Sailing is a sport. A sport that has a hobby attached to it. It requires skills, and knowledge and time to learn. 

Like all things that require skills, they take precious time to acquire and polish.

Many people have traded what they think is "the good life," that being career, possesions, status. Much of it being a false sense of "stability." I am not saying these people are selfish, or wrong per se' but rather, incorrectly focused.

Some of it is less self serving... its cost of education, to make their kids competitve... its getting kids involved in sports, activities, and skills of their own. Anything to give their kids a leg up. It's time consuming, precious, but it is also teaching our kids, that we LIVE for them, and it doesn't teach them to LIVE!

I try to balance both those things. My daughter/step-son learn that it's important to work hard, AND learn, but Hobbies, skills, and fun are JUST as important, and serve to feed the spirit for those others. It's a balancing act that I think recent generations have lost.. I lost it myself, and am not too proud to admit it. My daughter will learn to live, while learning, and acquiring skills and getting an education.

It's about a BETTER life for our kids, not a more PRODUCTIVE one per se' (that goal comes with the former) but a happier, more balanced one.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

puddinlegs said:


> My place Parents
> 
> TV's 1 4
> Computers 1 1
> ...


Honestly, (and I dont mean to sound cruel)....move away from the area! Generations of Americans have been picking up and moving across this country to get more opportunity and a better quality of life. If NY or CA or WA is too expensive, then move to one of many many lower cost of living states out there. South Carolina, many parts of Florida & the Gulf Coast, Texas, great Lakes area...all offer good sailing and much more affordable way of life. I'll bet your parents did the same and only moved to your area once they had a secure job that could afford those luxuries in the area they're in. Yeah, it sucks to get forced out of your hometown due to money...but thats life, unfortunately. Hell, I've even contemplated going internationally to get ahead


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

smackdaddy said:


> Meh.
> 
> Google Insights for Search
> 
> Google Insights for Search


I guess you all guys are forgetting one basic thing: The English is not the language of all world

So let's see when we search the word sailboat in several languages (I think sailboat is a more use word than sail. Nobody search for sail, much more people interesting in sailing search for sailboat.

But first that is a complex thing to do and one that woul have required a lot of time to be meaningful, as an example and starting by the English, look at the differences in results in what concerns Australia and New Zealand:

Google Insights for Search

Google Insights for Search

So in what regards English language, things are really bad for sailboats.

On Canada, United states and Australia the results match the global graphic, no so in New Zealand were the interest is almost constant.

In German, for Segelboot: Very different results, close to the ones from New Zealand. Almost a constant interest, with a small decline that I think we can attribute to the crisis.

Google Insights for Search

In French for Voilier we can see that searches are going down but not so bad as in US, Canada or Australia.

Google Insights for Search

In Italy for barca a vela the results are not very diferent from France:

Google Insights for Search

In Spain for Velero, it is amazingly good, very similar with Germany.

Google Insights for Search

If we look at the search in Spanish world wide they are surprisingly good:

Google Insights for Search

In Sweden for segelbåt the results are not faraway from France and Italy.

Google Insights for Search

In Portugal for veleiro the results are similar to Spain, not a constant interest.

Google Insights for Search

Using the Russian as a global language for парусное судно, that is the first case that the interest shows an increase.

Google Insights for Search

Surprisingly using Chinese as a global language for 帆船 it shows a diminishing interest.

Google Insights for Search

But what I think that it is happening is just a lower interest in sailboats and a bigger interest in motorboats specially in English speaking countries.

If we make a global search search using the word motorboat, the results don't show any crisis but an increase.

Google Insights for Search

So I would agree with the OP, sailing is in decline specially in English speaking countries with the exception of New Zealand. On Europe the situation is a lot less marked with some countries like Spain and Germany maintaining an almost constant interest while others have been declined but much less than in English speaking countries.

We can see the reflex of this on the sailboat manufacturing industry and on the number of new boats offered in the market on Europe and on United States, Canada or Australia.

Regards

Paulo


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## dmcMaine (Sep 1, 2010)

I always figured that the increased interest in sailboats in the 70's had more to do with the oil crisis than anything else. A recreational boater could learn to sail, or fight for a few drops of gas to run his powerboat. At least that is what the ads would lead you to believe if you were boat shopping.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

night0wl said:


> Your parents must have been on the wealthier end of the spectrum while you grew up and give you a great lifestyle. Definitely upper middle class if you grew up in the 80s/70s or earlier. Sorry you're not matching it...such is life. What did they do professionally vs what do you do?
> 
> Not every kid in the next generation can meet their parents lifestyle. By and large though, Gen-X is living better than their parents generation. The Millenials/Gen-Y have reason to be worried though...they grew up in the 90s/2000 in an era that probably was the peak of US wealth/influence. Its going to be tough to match their youth lifestyle in todays environment. By an large though...Americans are a bit spoiled. We lived well and its tough to give it back. Remember, our parents generation also suffered through the energy crisis, double digit inflation/stagflation, crack epidemic, white flight and destruction of the major cities of the country, as well as interest rates in the teens for mortgages! We all have our crosses to bear.
> 
> I'm a gen-x guy (tail end of it) that is grew up in a white-collar, but financially tight home (4 kids, mom stayed home). I can say that I am living better than my parents. They would *NEVER* have thought about buying a boat, it was the plaything of the rich in their time.


I do not disagree with your points about being spoiled. Nor am I complaining about my financial situation. I appreciate everything I have. Based on what I know and people that I know, you are minority of Gen X experiences.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

Decline in US economy together with general disenfranchisement in sailing is likely to blame.,
On the one hand, sailing is no longer that magic dream it was for many (especially all those who had a chance to deal directly with "dream industry" of selling, maintaining and otherwise pumping money out of sailboats). On the other, access to water is not improving. And it's getting more expensive all the time.
So, something's got to give.

BTW, I took one single example by PCP (which I am familiar with). The more common term for recreational sailing in Russian is either "парусная лодка" or "яхтинг" (British style). "судно" is a somewhat archaic, official term which recreational boater is quite unlikely to use.

Using my terms I see a stable search pattern with slight decline in recent years. 

I think both accessibility of sailing and it's perceived draw vs. the real world enjoyment and difficulty is shifting currently in the less desirable direction.


On a personal example, after owning a number of boats since 1998, I am currently taking a break, and - based on what's available, potential to sail and expected issues - probably will remain boatless for some time to come.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

PCP said:


> I guess you all guys are forgetting one basic thing: The English is not the language of all world


I refuse to believe that. You're joking right?

Wow, I need to get out more.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

dmcMaine said:


> I always figured that the increased interest in sailboats in the 70's had more to do with the oil crisis than anything else. A recreational boater could learn to sail, or fight for a few drops of gas to run his powerboat. At least that is what the ads would lead you to believe if you were boat shopping.


I dunno about that logic. I mean, even if gas were free it would still be way more fun to sail than get gas and run your motor


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

AdamLein said:


> I dunno about that logic. I mean, even if gas were free it would still be way more fun to sail than get gas and run your motor


You're right, the gas shortage wasn't likely the reason. Recreational general aviation aircraft sales also peaked in the 70s. Most manufactures haven't sold as many units in all the decades since....combined.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Well, in a way all traditional leisure activities are in decline, mostly because there are so many other options to divide up the declining leisure time. The pie is getting smaller, and it's being divided up into smaller pieces.

Viewership of the 3 major US TV networks has been eroding continuously for the last 30 years. It's not that we're watching less TV, it's that the market has grown far more fragmented with thousands of TV stations - and that's not even including YouTube, Hulu, Netflix, etc.

The same fragmentation has happened for all leisure activities. There are so many more things to do that did not even exist 30-40 years ago. Who had even heard of water parks back then? Video games? Computers? When the first home computers starting appearing back then, I remember most people saying, "Why would I need a computer at home?"

So the leisure activities now get divided over a huge range of other options.

And couple that with a drastic reduction in actual leisure time, and even less of it with the traditional nuclear family. Working couples were the exception 30-40 years ago. 60+ hour work weeks are much more common now - for both parents. And with what time they have left, they're picking up the kids from soccer practice (after the nanny dropped them off). Family time together is almost unheard of for some.

In the mid-70s I owned a Hobby Shop in a shopping mall (at the same time I was in college full time). We sold plastic model kits, model rockets, etc. Most of these are activities that need parental guidance, and it was considered good education for kids to learn how to follow instructions and fit pieces together. That seems quaint nowadays. These days most of that leisure time is spent by the kids with video games or on the computer, usually without parental supervision (because they're at work).

When I was 11-14 my family spent every summer weekend and 2 weeks of vacation on the boat, cruising down the Potomac River to Aquia Creek and the Landmark Yacht Club (and up the Bay sometimes). That was great until my parents divorced. Then life began to change - everywhere (at least in the US).

We've been very fortunate to have dinner as a family almost every night while my kids were growing up. But we intentionally waited until the kids were old enough to leave home before buying the sailboat. It just was not something they wanted, and it did not fit into modern family life.

These things have a way of coming full circle. A lot of this workaholic syndrome was the never ending quest to buy that ever-bigger house (with no down payment) and to keep earning enough to make the (minimum) payment on the charge cards and the balloon mortgage. One of the side effects of less employment may be shorter work weeks for many parents. Once the housing market bottoms out, the young generation might find home ownership more affordable, need to work a little less hard to make the payments (hopefully they'll find jobs), and might have more time to spend with the family - hopefully on an affordable sailboat.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

Nice summary, Rhythm Dr. I agree. I was one of those kids in your hobby shop. I tried passing my interest in model building to my son and it just didn't take. Generational gap. I guess. He does love sailing, though, and this is my contribution to the future of sailing. You're welcome.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Sailing will never grow unless we encourage and foster skippers who are women and minorities.


As long as sailing is essentially a white guy's activity - it will not grow.


When non-sailing women are on board - how many of you give them the tiller for extended periods of time ?


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## sailpb (Nov 6, 2011)

These responses have all been great. I appreciate it. Some of the 'realities' seem dismal. I'm wondering how sailing can 'compete' given the competition for time, lack of action, cost prohibitiveness, etc..

Some specific steps have been recommended: more women and minorities, kids programs, etc.

I was at my club last night talking to one of the 'old-timers' and we came to the conclusion that it was about actively attracting new people and keeping them rather than just relying on them to find sailing. 

That said: I would think that ideas should center around making a broader array of people aware at a lower cost.

Did someone say Groupon?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

For all those that I know who currently dedicate significant cost and time to the sport, it is a couple's activity.

It can be a lifelong shared activity. Almost none of the couples actively race. The mix of planning and executing a cruise or passage, combined with the social interaction of sharing those experiences with other couples at the dock on either end, is a big draw. Co-dependancy. That's what makes it a lifestyle and not just a sport.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Re: Groupon


Spinnaker Sailing in SF uses Groupon to great effect. They say they have tremendous reponse in volume, but even more important - their Groupon offers attach an audience which they haven't reached in years - young


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## fiatracer163 (Oct 21, 2011)

I would like to see that same chart but for this site! That might be on the incline.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

> When non-sailing women are on board - how many of you give them the tiller for extended periods of time ?


My wife is a NON-sailing woman.. and I give her the tiller for as long as I can... OH COME ON! someone had to say it...

No seriously... I take my brother's philosophy on sailing... I enjoy crewing on my own boat! Let someone else skipper... my 8 yo gets the helm when we go out... I play deck ape. Where else can she steer a 3000# vehicle LEGALLY? She loves it. Sadly she loves it more motoring, but OK. baby steps.


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## Chris King (Aug 23, 2011)

I think marketing has something to do with the trends as well. It looks to me like the majority of the boats being marketed have gotten bigger and bigger over the last few decades. I suspect that the manufacturers have been targeting baby boomers. Retired couples or folks headed that way. It makes sense. That is where the money is.

There does seem to be a new trend emerging in high end day sailors. Boats like the Alerion. I like this trend but all these boats seem really expensive. It will be nice when these boats have been around long enough to show up on the used market at reasonable prices.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

The Viagra commercial might be a sad testament to the current state of sailing. It's no accident that it features a middle aged white dude.

(Non-Sailing woman)- "...wait...That's NOT a tiller!!!!!"


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

One of the reasons I bought an O'Day Day Sailor was I thought my then ten year old grandson was easily frustrated by mechanical things. He could deal only with things that went easily, and I thought maybe sailing would teach him to work out problems. At first he could not even keep a heading. For some reason his 8 year old sister was rock steady and methodical about how she went about helping me as crew. Now it's two years later and he does well because his parents sent the kids to the YMCA sail camp for a week last summer. Their father, like his son, also seems to have a problem with things going perfect, so he was put off for a year by a little bump on the head with the boom. But last summer he and his two brothers, the third one knows more about sailing than I do, had a great time sailing together even if the three of them at 250 pounds each overloaded the O'Day Day Sailor. Three other grandsons, the oldest of which also went to the YMCA camp, are developing an interest. The oldest is now taking sailing lessons in Abu Dhabi and his parents will take several sailing courses this winter and then be with us next summer. I have to realize that the O'Day Day Sailor is going to get scratched up a bit, etc. but I am resigned to it for the benefits to everyone learning how to sail.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

Very interesting perspectives and many different sailing experiences posted here.

I learned to sail at 10-12 yrs old in scouts at camp. When I got home from camp I new I needed a sailboat, we lived on a Lake in upstate NY. 
I new I wanted to see the world from a small sailboat. Particularly more so after reading "Dove" at a young age . But none of my family or friends had the same interest. Many thought it was interesting but none were driven to it. 
Now decades later I still love sailing ,boats and life on, in, and around the water. My Family and I spent 3-4 years sailing and cruising but ,they too, lack a craving for it as I did, and still do.
My 7yr. old Daughter isn't enamored w/ it nor is her Mother. They enjoy the trips but would just as soon be living in a house with the modern conveniences and trappings-cars rather than bycycle's and public trans. and a house on land in one place w/ relatives nearby.
I would prefer to wander nomadically by Sail where-ever the mood, and the weather is most attractive and take it slow.
So I'm at a loss as to why anyone wouldn't want to sail at every opportunity !
At the same time I'm kind of glad everyone doesn't, it would be too crowded. 

now back to plotting my next sailing escape , I need a 6-8 month fix.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Hi All,

I skimmed through the comments and see quite a few similar and excellent points regarding the high cost of sailing; There's a large initial cost and large on-going costs (maintenance) and if things keep going the way they are around here, it is difficult to recover a portion of those costs when you want to exit. Nobody has really disagreed.

However, I think Cruiser2B made some sailient [sic] points that we should spend more time discussing. I'll add my observations to this as well.



Cruiser2B said:


> 1. Sailing require work. I think it is just too much work for most people today...everything is instant gratification.


My friends are in their mid-30's, generally have been married for half a decade and have young children. I have difficulty finding crew that are interested in learning to sail - sure they want to go sailing, but not spend the time to learn how to sail. There are various reasons given; "Not enough time", "busy with kids", "spending too much time on other hobbies" etc. But when it comes down to it, I've deduced that my friends won't take up hobbies that require extensive time & practice to get started. They'll take up running so they can say they are "training for a marathon", but won't sit down to learn a musical instrument. They'll play a league sport like soccer/football/hockey, but won't pick gymnastics or dance. The skills and knowledge required for sailing take longer to learn than my friends' attention span.



Cruiser2B said:


> 2. Most people have the perception you have to be rich to have a sailboat. no one believes I have a 30ft sailboat in overall good sailable condition for less that $6,000. if you look at new 30ft sailboat your looking at starting at $100k...who would ever buy used...as if.....


Indeed. Although, $6,000 would not be a sailable sailboat around here, it is a reasonable point. My friends will purchase a $16,000 or $20,000 motorcycle. They'll purchase a $5,000 dSLR camera, they'll spend money to vacation in Europe, Asia or Africa. Yet they tell me that it is too expensive to spend $4,000/yr to keep a boat in Toronto. The costs are discussed to death, but it's a reasonable point... A choice needs to be made on what to dispose disposable income, and sailing is not at the top of that list for my friends.



Cruiser2B said:


> 3. unless you were introduced to it young it can be intimidating. i get all the time" you have a sailboat? where'd you learn how to sail?" many young kids, adults 35 below today have been introduced to it....ever. kids today have no interest in playing with a 16ft hobie when the new call of duty just came out or they might miss a post on facebook....god forbid!


This is what I was getting at above as well. The knowledge it takes to sail; Understanding wind & weather, navigation, sailing itself and mechanical knowledge; Add on radio licensing (here in Canada), boat and harbour licencing, and likely racing rules. It adds up and my friends aren't willing to invest the time to learn.

A one-weekend course is all it takes to be up and riding a motorcycle. A new pair of skates and a composite stick and you are Sydney Crosby. A few dollars and a peddle fitting and you are Lance Armstrong.

As for kids... if their parents don't introduce them to activities such as musical instruments and sailing, how would they know that it's as much fun as Call of Duty? Parents today are my age and *WE* are the gaming generation. Our kids will certainly follow in those footsteps.



Cruiser2B said:


> 4. I dont think there an decrease in boating per say...look at PWC they are everywhere....again instant gratification....in, out, back in the driveway....gone. on to the next thing. a short day sail requires about 25minutes to prep the boat and 45-1hr to put it away! who has time for that. Not many young folks at my marina. I am one of the younger guys i see and i am 36.


Right. But we're talking about a decrease in sailing. My friends would more willingly join me for a day of Seadoing/jet skiing/water skiing than they would for a day of sailing. You are able to take your car licence, fill out a form and voila, you have a rental SeaDoo for the day! Instant gratification. The amount of setup and clean-up required for my boat leads to the reputation that sailing "is a bunch of work". I hear this from people that have never even sailed so word must get around. 

It makes me ashamed that my friends consider removing a sail cover "work". That coiling a line is "hard". And how they shouldn't be expected to retain how to tie a knot between sessions.

At 34 years old, my wife and I brought down the average age in every marina we visited this summer. Often 60 was considered young. The youngest marina we found was Erieau where it was basically all lake fishing power boats. Port Stanley was second closest where I figure they were in their 40's/50's.



Cruiser2B said:


> 5. asking on sailing forum is gonna procuce very biased opinions but if you ask around the office...no one has time for anything anymore....busy going here doing this, game here, boyscout there....yadayada yada


I hear the lip service of "nobody has time". However, we all have the same amount of time, it's just a matter of where we choose to spend it. In Toronto, many people spend it commuting; 45 - 90 minutes is a typical one-way commute to the subburbs. Fair enough, they've chosen to live and work where they do but it precludes them from other things. As for Boyscouts, that's terrific. I support them. But often it's non-activities - watching football, following X-Factor/American Idol/Jersey Shore that colleagues spend time on in favour of doing something like sailing. They still claim they are busy.



Cruiser2B said:


> these are my opinions and they are worthless just thought i share


I think they are right on the money.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Human literature is a terrific yardstick for measuring popularity of subjects. I'll cite What we learned from 5 million books | Video on TED.com as my evidence.

Take a look at ngrams: Google Ngram Viewer

Interesting statistics; Interpretation will be left to the reader.

I was surprised to see the rise after 2000. Interesting.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

interesting observation made by jordanh.
I also don't encounter a majority of people interested involved activities that involve learning new skills. I find it puzzling why more people don't pursue a wider understanding or interest in things like playing musical instruments,learning languages, improving nautical knowledge,marlinspike etc.
a year ago I decided I would teach myself/learn to play the violin. I decided the best approach was to dedicate an hour a day to practice,at first it was difficult, now a year later I can play a dozen tunes from memory and enjoy playing the instrument from time to time throughout the day. 
I think it has to do with different people just being different ! 
I guess most are just happy to sit on the couch and watch the tube.
I figure if I live long enough I'll have plenty of time for that later. If I wasn't feeling a bit under the wether today I would be outside a bit more, instead of wasting my time on this computer!


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

Yamsailor said:


> Well, Compared to to what my parents had:
> 
> My house is 1/3 the square footage;
> They had two cars, I have one
> ...


The differences in generations are only what you make of it. I'm not sure I ever knew what my parents made nor what they had to pay for housing etc. It was non of our business.

We grew up in the mid 80's in a old farm house with no insulation, heck snow would blow through the cracks in the windows. We thought we were living well, never really thought otherwise. As kids we had very little to do all summer. Soaps on 3 channels on TV. Didn't have a phone at all until I was 10 and that was one phone in one room. We had to ask to use it. my dad had one very old Chevy truck to drive to work that broke down all the time. No AC in any way anywhere, cars or homes. the whole family had to be at the dinner table at dinner time or no dinner for you. Never had a microwave until I was 10-12??

If I wanted something I had to ask for it for xmas no matter what time of yr it was. Most of the time you either forgot about by than or cried xmas morning. To which my dad would say tough **** get a job. A kids job back than was mowing yards, or working as a farm help bailing hay/straw.

We all shared bedrooms 4 kids 2 rooms, and my sister had one to her self once she had boobs....lol

My dad was a union worker for General Motors. With all the best benefits they had. The yrs were the early to mid 80's. When I joined the Navy at 18 everything I had would fit in the back of a 78 Chevette.

By comparison I have a wildly unbelievable life. House, cars, many TV's, cell phones on and on. The best thing my dad did for me was nothing at all. he made me earn what I have and make it on my own.

This is the way we are raising our son today. He has known since he was 5 that once he's 18 and graduates HS he's on his own. The opportunities kids have today are incredible. Will it be hard? Will life suck? Yes But pull up your pants and make it happen.

I wonder as i see the kids our son is in school with today just what they plan to do once they have to make it on their own. They are to busy playing with smart phones and going to ball practice. Learning to make it on your own shouldn't start after HS or college.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Ok, here's one solution. Take a few kids who think that video games are the end all in action, put 'em in a hiking harness, take them out in 20+ knots of wind on a Hobie tiger and instruct them to sit on the rail, hook in and slide their ass out over the water. Keep yelling, "PUSH OFF WITH YOUR FEET!! C'MON, GET YOUR ASS OUT THERE!!" When they are fully standing on the rail, fly the hull. Not too high, but just high enough so you can blast through the chop on a screaming reach. You have to scream at them to slide aft as to hold the bow up. watch the terror in their face. The transformation is taking place. From a bored teenager who would rather be at Gamestop to one wide eyed freaked out youngster who is saying to him/herself, HOLY SH*T!!!! Then when you get back to shore and you are bleeding from your ankles and your hands are raw and your biceps are exhausted, they'll say, "can we go again?" It works. My bud's 18 yo kid is looking for a 20 footer to buy with a friend. I "scared the sh*t" out of him when he was 14.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

night0wl said:


> Honestly, (and I dont mean to sound cruel)....move away from the area! Generations of Americans have been picking up and moving across this country to get more opportunity and a better quality of life. If NY or CA or WA is too expensive, then move to one of many many lower cost of living states out there. South Carolina, many parts of Florida & the Gulf Coast, Texas, great Lakes area...all offer good sailing and much more affordable way of life. I'll bet your parents did the same and only moved to your area once they had a secure job that could afford those luxuries in the area they're in. Yeah, it sucks to get forced out of your hometown due to money...but thats life, unfortunately. Hell, I've even contemplated going internationally to get ahead


We'll move out of the city proper in another couple of years, but many of the choices we've made are about having opportunities rather than things. We have a boat and can sail year round. We can also ski year round. Things are cheaper in the midwest, but the opportunities for both work and play are much more limited. I've also done very well living abroad and had a much better material life there than here, but that's life. Family obligations are much more important than material wealth.


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## dub420sailor (Mar 29, 2010)

A few big problems for the younger generations:

1. A motorboat provides instant gratification. You don't need to understand wind, tides, or too much else to get where you want to go.
2. It is REALLY hard to find a good place to learn to sail and really get into it - sure you can get the most basic of lessons, but it is hard to find much past that besides Sunfish rentals (usually $10 per hour).
3. There is a huge misconception that sailing is boring...
4. Access to boats and to the water is becoming harder to obtain. The more you sail the more you get hooked. Plenty of people try it a few times and don't have any way to try it again, especially after they take lessons.
5. Maintaining a boat is expensive. Racing a boat is really expensive.


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## sailpb (Nov 6, 2011)

WDSchock:

The point about age is a good one. I wonder how many of the younger folks driven by the SF Groupon actually remained as members or returned.

I know this approach can drive volume. Just curious about retention.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

sailpb said:


> That said: I would think that ideas should center around making a broader array of people aware at a lower cost.
> 
> Did someone say Groupon?


Yes, I think it's called SAILTIME, and other varieties of "Fractional Sailing" and boat ownership...

Perhaps "Sailing Lite" would be an appropriate moniker... "Same Great Taste, Fewer Hassles/Work/Responsibilities"...

It's the future of sailing in larger boats for many people, I think...Along with chartering, of course... So are services like Dockwise, shipping a cruising boat across oceans instead of dealing with all that bother of sailing them...

Hmmm, perhaps a new magazine is in the offing?

KROOZING LITE WORLD?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

WDSchock said:


> Sailing will never grow unless we encourage and foster skippers who are women and minorities.
> 
> As long as sailing is essentially a white guy's activity - it will not grow.
> 
> When non-sailing women are on board - how many of you give them the tiller for extended periods of time ?


Look at this movie made in Switzerland where sailing seems not to be losing much popularity even if they don't have a sea.

Look at those nice kids, boys and girls and the fun they all seem to share....that is also ours:






Regards

Paulo


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris King said:


> I think marketing has something to do with the trends as well. It looks to me like the majority of the boats being marketed have gotten bigger and bigger over the last few decades. I suspect that the manufacturers have been targeting baby boomers. Retired couples or folks headed that way. It makes sense. That is where the money is.
> 
> There does seem to be a new trend emerging in high end day sailors. Boats like the Alerion. I like this trend but all these boats seem really expensive. It will be nice when these boats have been around long enough to show up on the used market at reasonable prices.


The manufacturerers are thinking short term--the future markert is oging to be with the under 45 crowd.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Regarding Europe and the decline of sailing, more specifically cruising, I don't think there is a decline. This year I sailed on the Balearic Islands and I had not sailed there on the last 5 years. I sailed on Majorca and Minorca and found them CROWDED with much more boats than five years ago to the point of being difficult to find place on a cove to anchor for the night and those Islands have an incredibly number of coves.

I found information that corroborates this impression of growth. The crisis affected sales but things are on track again with increases in sales. I am quite sure that today there are a lot more boats in the water than 10 years ago and a lot more people sailing even if the biggest growth seems to be on the motor boat side. Things are just improving in what regards sailing popularity.

*Germany:*

... *"We now have strong growth, giving a boost to the whole of our industry, for an upbeat start to hanseboot," says a delighted Claus-Ehlert Meyer, Managing Director of the DBSV.

The DBSV has compiled the latest figures of the Federal Statistics Office in a market report for the period from June 2009 to June 2010. The rise in imports of more than 22% year-on-year .. According to the DBSV, nearly 8,800 motor boats and sailing boats were imported, with a total value of just over EUR 100 million. ..

The trend is likewise up in exports of boats and yachts. A total of 7,830 boats and yachts worth EUR 367 million were sold abroad in the period under review. There was a spectacular increase in the value of the large motor yachts (more than 12 metres). ..

The largest value increase in sailing yachts was in the export of boats in the 7.5 to 12 metre class, of which 48% more were sold year-on-year. The value of sales in this category was up by more than 29% to about EUR 47 million.

"Even if the numbers are still a long way short of those of 2006/2007, when export sales totalled about one billion euros, optimism is back in the boat building industry," said DBSV Managing Director Claus-Ehlert Meyer.*

Strong yachting industry growth for Germany - Luxury Yacht Charter & Superyacht News

*France:*

*During the 2010-11 season, which is coming to an end, the BENETEAU Group has once again achieved strong growth of around 20% for its Boat division in a global market that has picked up slightly. This performance, following on from the previous year's growth of around 16%, has been achieved thanks to the Group successfully capitalizing on its assets and talents.*

Beneteau Group show strong growth during the 2010-11 season - Luxury Yacht Charter & Superyacht News

Boats like RM or Pogo have all their production sold for more than a year and brands like Salona have been experiencing a fast growth, not to mention the big names that have been experiencing growth after a sharp decline with the crisis.

On the New Zealand sailing also look to be growing fast and I think that is not by accident that some of the best boat manufacturers and designers come from there or are there and manage to survive in an isolated relatively small country.

*New Zealand:*

"NZ Marine is aiming to grow our industry by 55% by 2015," says executive director Peter Busfield. "We expect to go from $1.71 billion this year to $2.66 billion in 2015. Our exports are also expected to grow by around 70%, from $650 million to $1.11 billion, over that period."

New Zealand Marine Industry gathering to boost exports and maximise growth - Luxury Yacht Charter & Superyacht News

I believe that US is a particular case, specially in what regards to sailing. Compared with Europe the percentage of motorboats is huge. I have understood that looking at the percentages of sailboats versus motor boats in European and US boat shows. The ones from United States are very low when compared with Europe where the main boat show (Dusseldorf) only has slightly less percentage of sailboats compared with motorboats.

That is also visible on the boat market were the US prices for used old boats are much lower than on the European market and that indicates a bigger offer and a lower demand.

I don't know what that means regarding peoples mind in what regards the choice between a motor boat and a sailboat and the kind of living choice that implies, but if it means something, means that you guys that like sailing and sailing boats are in some way nearer the Europeans than the rest of the population

Regards

Paulo


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## BigMoe (Oct 24, 2006)

*Big Boat ownership is expensive*

The expense of owning my 49 Beneteau is tremendous. While I have no payments; the dock fees, wintering on the hard fees, and general maintenance is quite a lot of money. I'm sure it is catching up on many families!

Big Moe


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

49 ft ? 


It is my belief that many of us would be far better off owning smaller sailboats. Costs of operating a 25-30 ft vessel are significantly lower than s 50 ftr. I'd argue that the smaller boat gets used more often and provided more sailing pleasure. 

In our Father's day, a 50ft boat was an extreme rarity.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

WDSchock said:


> 49 ft ?
> 
> It is my belief that many of us would be far better off owning smaller sailboats. Costs of operating a 25-30 ft vessel are significantly lower than s 50 ftr. I'd argue that the smaller boat gets used more often and provided more sailing pleasure.
> 
> In our Father's day, a 50ft boat was an extreme rarity.


My boat is a lot smaller and less expensive than owning a vacation home. It is intended to be our second home, we live on her approx 100 days per year and sail her approx 60.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

M,


Good point,


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Minnewaska said:


> My boat is a lot smaller and less expensive than owning a vacation home. It is intended to be our second home, we live on her approx 100 days per year and sail her approx 60.


Humm!!! I don't think so. If you buy a small vacation home in a nice place it will cost perhaps the price of a new 40ft boat, but while the vacation home will maintain its value or even increase it with time, the sailboat will be losing value all the time. 30 years later that house may even values more that what it cost you, but the sailboat will value almost nothing.

Cruising is nice, but not cheap

Regards

Paulo


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

PCP said:


> Humm!!! I don't think so. If you buy a small vacation home in a nice place it will cost perhaps the price of a new 40ft boat, but while the vacation home will maintain its value or even increase it with time, the sailboat will be losing value all the time. 30 years later that house may even values more that what it cost you, but the sailboat will value almost nothing.
> 
> Cruising is nice, but not cheap
> 
> ...


Doesn't sound like you have much experience with New England waterfront real estate prices, nor the requisite real estate taxes. I have considered depreciation on the boat, which will not go to zero. It will decline and essentially level off. Further, those multi million dollar properties can swing drastically in value. In fact, if you bought a few years ago, your loss in value on the real estate could be greater than my purchase price for my boat. Have plenty of friends in that predicament right now. Further, real estate taxes can be two to three times my annual marina and storage fees. What really kills me on a house is the new roof, driveway, windows, paint, appliances, etc they will suck out of you over the years. Makes new sails look cheap.

Yes, the boat is notably less expensive. And..... I can live on my boat, one can't sail their house.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> Yes, the boat is notably less expensive. And..... I can live on my boat, one can't sail their house.


Totally agree. We have a house at the beach. A boat is a lot less expensive.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

And when you get tired of your nieghbors or the view you can move w/o paying 6% to a real estate agent.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

jimrafford said:


> And when you get tired of your nieghbors or the view you can move w/o paying 6% to a real estate agent.


Not to mention the time and effort required in selling and moving, as compared with the time and effort required in weighing and resetting the anchor.


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## H and E (Sep 11, 2011)

Wow-very interesting read. Being retired I have the time to enjoy the sailing activity. My neighbor has two kids that are eating up all his time and money. My very good friend of 40+ years thinks sailing is too much work. Life is about decisions. I decided to live in a house below my income capability to enjoy flying and airplane ownership most of my life. A lot of the folks I know have more house than they need and can afford comfortably and consequently do not have disposable income to enjoy anything else. Now time has brought me back to sailing which is something I was able to do in my younger years. Most of my life I have wanted to retire on a sailboat and wander around the world. My wife has no desire to do that-in fact she is somewhat afraid of the water but goes sailing with me. Life's priorities change with every generation. Personally I think the earlier generations had better decision making capabilities. I watched the non work participation dwindle in several activities I am involved in over the past decade and do not think it is just sailing.


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## Ocarina II (Nov 21, 2011)

I have attended the Toronto Boat Show annually for more than 30 years and worked it the last 5 years straight. Sailboats have been in decline as long as I can remember, but powerboat sales have maintained. Jobs and a failing economy haven't affected powerboating so how can one use that as an explanation?
Anyone can jump into a motorboat,turn the key, and careen out of the marina.Sailing takes skill, patience and effort, attributes that a generation of button pushers don't have.


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## texianbiker (Dec 15, 2011)

Um...why would anyone want to do it when they can kick back in their recliner with popcorn and a remote to watch people sail on reality TV and have the experience be just as authentic. And...they don't have to put up with that pesky wind. I think not doing is a sickness infecting the country.


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## Southcoasting (Oct 25, 2011)

As a beginner that will start to sail next year and never sailed before, I think there are lots of factors behind this "decline" or lack or younger sailors out there...But really there are a couple that stand out to me...

First off, there's a misconception that sailing costs a lot of money and that you need to come from money to sail...I say this because I grew up thinking this and for the most of my life...The cost to put your kids through sailing classes/school versus the traditional baseball/basketball leagues are not even comparable...So of course the sport in my generation be limited to those few that came from privileged families for the most part...

Just like Golf is getting over this hump, sailing can easily get over this as well...

Which brings me to the second factor, sailing as a recreational activity for children is unattainable for most parents...Therefore, our generation (I was born in 1980) for the most part do not have a clue about sailing...Again, outreach by clubs/organizations to communities and schools was just not there...Maybe it is now with the growing non-profits but when I went to school, it just wasn't...I remember seeing skiing/hiking/biking and lots of other non-traditional activities but sailing was just not one of them...

There are a few non-profits now starting to get off the ground teaching kids from the cities sailing skills which will hopefully get those unfortunate kids in the water...Here in New Bedford, we have the Community Boating Center that provides training and classes for way cheaper than the alternative schools that cost thousands...I wish I was brought there when I was younger...Outreach is key with places like these...I know there is also one in Boston too and would assume there are more in cities around the nation/world?

I know that sailing does not cost much more than any other recreational sport like snowboarding, skiing, 4 wheelers, ski-doos, power boats, etc so it's really not a matter of money for young people...Thinking about it, my nephew bought a brand new 4 wheeler for $7000, which is $5000 more than what I spent on my boat! A snowboard with all the equipment costs just as much if not even more than a used small boat on a trailer that they can easily tow with their used Honda Civics...Not to mention ski passes and gas to get there would cost more money than any day spent in the water...So again, to me, it's just a matter of misconceptions/lack of outreach...

Just like young people are eager to learn to do those things and spend the money/time/energy on them, that same eagerness would be applied to sailing if they actually seen young peers doing it being commercialized as that kind of sport...

I've seen older pictures/stories of crews consisting of young people, teens and early 20's...These days it seems crews consist of adults, probably in their 30's and 40's...


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## Southcoasting (Oct 25, 2011)

PCP said:


> Humm!!! I don't think so. If you buy a small vacation home in a nice place it will cost perhaps the price of a new 40ft boat, but while the vacation home will maintain its value or even increase it with time, the sailboat will be losing value all the time. 30 years later that house may even values more that what it cost you, but the sailboat will value almost nothing.
> 
> Cruising is nice, but not cheap
> 
> ...


But, when you think of it this way, that moving house (40ft boat) that can get you all these wonderful areas to live a few days/weeks at a time in these beautiful places is way more valuable to the person who owns it than that stationary vacation house that does not move...Don't forget the taxes, insurance, heat/electric bills, and the hidden cost of home ownership should something go wrong...when you add it all up, it costs more per year to own that house that stays in the same place and gets used once in a while (unless you rent it of course)...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Southcoasting said:


> But, when you think of it this way, that moving house (40ft boat) that can get you all these wonderful areas to live a few days/weeks at a time in these beautiful places is way more valuable to the person who owns it than that stationary vacation house that does not move...Don't forget the taxes, insurance, heat/electric bills, and the hidden cost of home ownership should something go wrong...when you add it all up, it costs more per year to own that house that stays in the same place and gets used once in a while (unless you rent it of course)...


No, sorry but that is no true. I work also with real estate, I have a beach house and I had a boat for many years. I like more the boat but there is no comparison in what regards expense and depreciation, I mean if boat things have the same initial value.

Boats are a lot of fun, but a bad investment

Regards

Paulo


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## Southcoasting (Oct 25, 2011)

PCP said:


> No, sorry but that is no true. I work also with real estate, I have a beach house and I had a boat for many years. I like more the boat but there is no comparison in what regards expense and depreciation, I mean if boat things have the same initial value.
> 
> Boats are a lot of fun, but a bad investment
> 
> ...


I have a beach condo as well that I rent but that's why I say: "way more valuable to the person who owns it"...You yourself believes this since you say "I like more the boat". 

By the way: Excellent point about the google search term sailing in different languages...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

PCP said:


> No, sorry but that is no true. I work also with real estate, I have a beach house and I had a boat for many years. I like more the boat but there is no comparison in what regards expense and depreciation, I mean if boat things have the same initial value.
> 
> Boats are a lot of fun, but a bad investment
> 
> ...


Not in all parts of the world is real estate a good investment either. I know someone who bought a $3 million dollar house in Nantucket about 6 years ago and just sold it for under $2 million. Is a two story, three bedroom home that probably cost him nearly $75 thousand per year to maintain.

In another neck of the woods, where I keep a house near a large lake, real estate values haven't increased meaningfully in decades. No big spike up, no decline. Real estate taxes can easily take $20 thousand per year on the average home. Replacing the driveway, roof, siding, painting, furnace, air conditioning, etc are reality over time and never coming back in value. It's not a good investment either.

The most significant and frustrating drain from real estate is all the optional money that gets spent on them. This is why home ownership has been considered a good economic driver over the years. New curtains, more TVs, updated furniture, art, etc, etc...... It's endless and has nothing to do with value.

I am way better off on the boat, depreciation and all.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Minnewaska;806955.. said:


> In another neck of the woods, where I keep a house near a large lake, real estate values haven't increased meaningfully in decades. No big spike up, no decline. Real estate taxes can easily take $20 thousand per year on the average home. Replacing the driveway, roof, siding, painting, furnace, air conditioning, etc are reality over time and never coming back in value. It's not a good investment either.
> 
> The most significant and frustrating drain from real estate is all the optional money that gets spent on them. This is why home ownership has been considered a good economic driver over the years. New curtains, more TVs, updated furniture, art, etc, etc...... It's endless and has nothing to do with value.
> 
> I am way better off on the boat, depreciation and all.


You mean that small house on the lake cost you $20 000 in tax per year?

Well, guys, you should invest here, on the right places. I have sold a house (I design and sometimes build houses) to a friend some 20 years ago, just near Baleal beach for 40 000€, today, even with the prices down it worth easily 100 000€ and what you pay for tax for year for that value is 350€ or something like that.

I rent my little house on Baleal while I am sailing (2 months in the summer) and only that is much more than what I spend in tax or maintenance, in fact that helps me to pay the expensive marina prices.

Regards

Paulo


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

PCP said:


> You mean that small house on the lake cost you $20 000 in tax per year?
> 
> Well, guys, you should invest here, on the right places. I have sold a house (I design and sometimes build houses) to a friend some 20 years ago, just near Baleal beach for 40 000€, today, even with the prices down it worth easily 100 000€ and what you pay for tax for year for that value is 350€ or something like that.
> 
> ...


Here, property tax is 1% of assessed value. To pay $20,000 a year, your value would have to be $2M. I guess his idea of an "average" house is different from mine.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

PCP
I don't think you have a grasp of the costs of waterfront real estate here in the north east and the accompaning taxes.
In my neck of New England you can't buy a postage stamp of a lot on the water for less than a mil and that's a dump. Homes that have been in familys for generations have to be sold because of the taxes on them. I have friends that pay between $30,000 and $40,000 a year in taxes on their waterfront homes. The annual taxes on my 40' floating condo are zero!
No one that can afford an "average home" can afford waterfront. I have waterfront property in South Carolina that I plan to move to partly because I wouldn't be able to retire here and pay those rates. If I could I would have an Oyster too.
Jim


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Jim, of course I have no idea of the taxes that you have on America and I start to believe that there the waterfront is only for rich people.

I thought that it was like here. Waterfront is more expensive but not a huge difference, I would say 1,5 to 3 times more expensive in most cases but older houses pay less tax.

Maybe it is because we have such a long water front, I mean the country is much more longer than wide and we have ocean on two sides.

The tax you pay on your boat can be 0 but there are two differences regarding a house: 

On a house you pay taxes but you don't pay rent; on a boat you buy it and if you want to have it in on a nice place (like the house) you will pay a lot in marina rent.

As Minnewaska has pointed out, its house on the lake has not depreciated and probably will not in the next 20 Years, but buy a new boat and see what is its value after 20 years..

Regards

Paulo


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Real estate taxes are not a consistent percent of value nationwide. That's not how it works. The municipal budget is totalled and divided into the gross value of all the real estate in the district, then distributed proportionately. Most have adjusters to further burden commercial property over residential. For all districts to be the same percentage would mean that all municipal budgets were a constant relationship to the sum total of the value of their properties.

Anyway, the property taxes I referenced were for a lakefront property that is probably worth about $750k. The same house on the ocean, near where I keep my boat, would be 2 million, I'm sure.

As far as Paolo's example, you can't buy the raw land for that.

Remember, we are comparing recreational waterfront properties to buying a boat, not just any property.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

This conversation is not unlike what we just went thru w/ the massive power outage in the north east. The managers for the power company were in the mid west and the call center was in in India. No one seemed to understand what the big problem was when 100% of the grid was down. 
They weren't here!
The reality is if you want to own waterfront property here you need to have deep pockets.
Don't care to get into a class warfare discussion, thats just the way it is and I can live w/ that.
Even if I rented a slip it would be a fraction to the cost of waterfront property. Many people buy boats here and use them as summer cottages. They never leave the dock. The cost of buying a used 40+ boat and slip rental is a fraction of buying waterfront property.
I own my slip which I bought 20 years ago. It has long since payed for it self, I have a annual condo fee that is a fraction of a slip rental. The slip rental for my 25' power boat is 3 times the condo fee for the sailboat.
Jim


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

PCP said:


> ....As Minnewaska has pointed out, its house on the lake has not depreciated and probably will not in the next 20 Years, but buy a new boat and see what is its value after 20 years.......


I've covered this already. Real estate taxes would be far in excess of marina rent. That difference alone will account for the boat depreciation over time. Once you add in how much more expensive it would be to own and maintain a waterfront house, I am way ahead with the boat. *Depreciation and all.*


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## texianbiker (Dec 15, 2011)

In my case there is another intrinsic. I can sit and look my 51 year old Rhodes Ranger while sipping an adult beverage (dock contemplation factor) and the boat's classic swoopy lines and rampant woodwork are not only beautiful and unique to today's design metric but also provide the ability to walk around in the cabin without stooping. 
I can also look at it and see what it will be someday with application of some money and some sweat (easily found in Texas). In a 'man cave' context working on my boat or just hanging out on it can easily be as great a pleasure as sailing it.
Isn't the word BOAT an acronym for Bring On Another Thousand?


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Bottom line, the economy is terrible. People can't afford houses let alone boats. I think demand for boats is going to be low for at least the next 5-7 years.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Another factor related to laziness and instant gratification, is changing expectations of comfort, safety, and self-reliance. At least in the USA, compared to past generations, we are generally fatter, less self-reliant, and more accustomed to structured activities and programmed entertainment. We are more likely to throw things away when they break. We expect more comforts and control of our environment. 

"Camping" a couple of generations ago used to connote bulky tents, sleeping on hard ground, and living with insects and dirt. Nowadays a "Camping World" store is where people go to buy $100,000 motor homes with air conditioning, satellite televisions, flush toilets, and hot baths. 

I'm having a hard time convincing my wife that she'd be at all comfortable in a cruising boat that has noticeably fewer comforts than a Best Western -- and that same boat would have been considered a huge luxury to previous generations.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

There's been no decline in sailing in my life. In fact, I'm finding myself sailing more and more...


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## TheMadchef (Feb 16, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> This is good for those of us who are still interested in sailing. Slips are less expensive, boats are less expensive, and there are fewer folks (particularly dangerous novices) out on the water.
> 
> While I am sympathetic to the people working in the marine industries who have been hurt by the slow down, this seems to be a net benefit to those of us who still enjoy sailing.


I agree with this train of thought. I think it's better to have a pastime/way of life that is exclusive and populated by only those who are truly in love with the sport/lifestyle enough to do it. The less that are involved in it = less regulation/attention by the lawmakers/enforcers. Leave sailing to the passionate few and leave us alone I say!!!


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Slips are less expensive so boat yards and clubs fold. Used boats are less expensive so there is no viable market for new boats. The fleet gets older and more decrepit. Demand for supplies is down so chandleries close. Fewer boats on the water so the homeland security forces can inspect us more frequently. Decreasing numbers reduce our ability to resist unwarranted regulation.

I love sailing and will continue to sail and bowlers love bowling and continue to bowl until all the alleys close.


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## kpgraci (May 13, 2010)

Yamsailor said:


> Bottom line, the economy is terrible. People can't afford houses let alone boats. I think demand for boats is going to be low for at least the next 5-7 years.


Good. For me, anyway. I plan on being in the bigger boat market, say, in 5 years (or I'll be homeless, but then I'd probably need to live on a boat).

I'm doing my part to increase sailing, and judging from the number of sailboats on the lake trying to kill me each week, the region is doing their pat too.


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