# Too difficult to get the headsail in....



## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

I am racing on a Lancer 36 with a 130% headsail. Currently on a port tack it is very difficult to get the headsail in. It takes throwing my entire body weight (215 lbs) against the winch handle. I have yet to be able to completely get the sail in. I am trying to figure out what is causing the issue. I have had a few other racers look at it and they have not been able to provide anything conclusive. Hoping by opening it up to the community I may get some additional ideas.

It does seem that there is way too much pressure in the system. I have had 3 high load blocks blow up on my this month, including the block built into the end of the genoa track!

Here are some current ideas:
- Sheet is too large. Going to try a smaller sheet during tonight's race
- Angle of the sheet from the car is bad. The block at the end of the track doubles back. I have tried running from the car directly to the winch with a 50(ish) degree angle and it still is too difficult.
- Winches are too small. The winches are Lewmar 42. Recently cleaned and lubed. They are working smoother than ever before.

What other thoughts can you all come up with that I could put to the test?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

This happens *ONLY* on a port tack? No such problems on stb?


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Ensure that the roller sheave in the sheet lead spins freely and has not become misshaped about the pin by wear such that it would "wobble" under load or hang up. From your comment I assume your sheet runs to turning blocks aft of the winches and then forward to the winch. Insure that the sheave there spins freely and does not wobble about the race due to worn bearings. A #42 for a sail of that size on a 36 foot boat should be more than adequate for free running line over fair leads.

FWIW...


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## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

capta said:


> This happens *ONLY* on a port tack? No such problems on stb?


Correct, which makes it even more strange to me.


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## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

svHyLyte said:


> Ensure that the roller sheave in the sheet lead spins freely and has not become misshaped about the pin by wear such that it would "wobble" under load or hang up. From your comment I assume your sheet runs to turning blocks aft of the winches and then forward to the winch. Insure that the sheave there spins freely and does not wobble about the race due to worn bearings. A #42 for a sail of that size on a 36 foot boat should be more than adequate for free running line over fair leads.
> 
> FWIW...


Hmm, misshaped pins or bearings could certainly make sense. That is something nobody has brought up yet. Is there an easy way to check for that?


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

blobaugh said:


> The winches are Lewmar 42. Recently cleaned and lubed. They are working smoother than ever before.
> 
> What other thoughts can you all come up with that I could put to the test?


Did you end up with any spare parts when the winches were cleaned and lubed?:laugh

In order to test that winch. Try cross sheeting the jib sheet. Give the sheet a half wrap on the starboard winch (just enough to direct it across to the port winch. Use the port winch to bring the sail in on a port tack. If you have no problem bringing in the sail on the port winch, your problem is in the Stbd winch.


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## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

jephotog said:


> Did you end up with any spare parts when the winches were cleaned and lubed?:laugh


Haha! No, there were no "spare" parts. I will try cross sheeting and see if that helps anything. Oddly enough though the stb winch seems to move smoother than the port winch. Just making this issue all the stranger.....


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

blobaugh said:


> Haha! No, there were no "spare" parts. I will try cross sheeting and see if that helps anything. Oddly enough though the stb winch seems to move smoother than the port winch. Just making this issue all the stranger.....


Did you stick all the leftover parts in the Stbd or port winch? Let us know how it works out for you.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

At this point, I'm a bit confused about which blocks you broke. 
If there was no difference when you went from the gene track sheet block directly to the winch, then it can't be the turning block. If you've just replaced the gene track sheet block, then that also shouldn't be the problem.
I have to assume that the sail isn't getting hung up on a stanchion or the rig, for that would be fairly obvious. So, that pretty much leaves the winch, I would think. If you are in a slip, ease your dock lines a bit, attach a line to a dockside piling or cleat and pull the boat with that winch.
I have had the aluminum frame on a winch swell up from corrosion and really make turning the drum difficult, but that's an extremely rare occurrence, I believe.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

in keeping with svHyLyte's Comment, as a proof, If visual inspection doesn't reveal anything, try switching the turning blocks one at a time. If the problem appears on the Starboard side then you've narrowed it down to a block.


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## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

capta said:


> At this point, I'm a bit confused about which blocks you broke.


The block at the end of the Genoa track that was built in and a couple other high load blocks that I clipped to the toe rail.



capta said:


> If there was no difference when you went from the gene track sheet block directly to the winch, then it can't be the turning block. If you've just replaced the gene track sheet block, then that also shouldn't be the problem.


Good point, that could mean the car is the issue. Maybe it has that wobble.



capta said:


> I have to assume that the sail isn't getting hung up on a stanchion or the rig, for that would be fairly obvious. So, that pretty much leaves the winch, I would think.


Winch is freshly rebuilt and spins freely. I am kind of leaning towards something being messed up in the car at the moment.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

blobaugh said:


> The block at the end of the Genoa track that was built in and a couple other high load blocks that I clipped to the toe rail.
> 
> Good point, that could mean the car is the issue. Maybe it has that wobble.
> 
> Winch is freshly rebuilt and spins freely. I am kind of leaning towards something being messed up in the car at the moment.


So, you did not change out the gene track sheet block, but you did change out the turning block?


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## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

capta said:


> So, you did not change out the gene track sheet block, but you did change out the turning block?


Right, the car is still there. I have to drill out the screws holding the old block at the end of the track off in order to replace the car. I have a brand new car for it. Hoping to get it installed before tonights race.


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## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

What are your thoughts on the sheet size? Could that be an issue at all? The car and all the blocks have had properly sized sheeves in them for the size of the line. It was an idea tossed around by some other racing buddies though so I figured it is worth bringing up. The lines are quite large on the sheets. I have not measured them yet but I believe they are larger than 1/2"


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

blobaugh said:


> What are your thoughts on the sheet size? Could that be an issue at all? The car and all the blocks have had properly sized sheeves in them for the size of the line. It was an idea tossed around by some other racing buddies though so I figured it is worth bringing up. The lines are quite large on the sheets. I have not measured them yet but I believe they are larger than 1/2"


If you can easily pull the sheets through the blocks by hand, and they don't chafe the line, then I doubt that that would make this problem. Others are more able to suggest proper sheet size for you, as I haven't sailed a boat that size in many a moon.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

7/16 sounds right to me.
They run on my lewmar 30.40 and 46.
...but it is not sheet size if one side works well.
...just a thought....could you have a ratcheting block involved and dont realize it...maybe threaded wrong direction?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

tempest said:


> in keeping with svHyLyte's Comment, as a proof, If visual inspection doesn't reveal anything, try switching the turning blocks one at a time. If the problem appears on the Starboard side then you've narrowed it down to a block.


^^ What he said. Some failures only lock-up under load.


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

The angle from the block to the winch will be slightly different due to the line feeding onto opposite sides of the drum (assuming you wind them both clockwise). I wonder if this is enough to make the sheet path on the starboard side less than optimal?


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I'm putting my money on a winch wear issue. Not blaming it on the rebuild maybe the gears are tired and needing replaced. It seems there is nothing a well working winch with a 215lb grinder during a race with a crew yelling grind, grind, grind (i.e. super human strength) can't muscle through, even a sticky block.


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## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

Update from last night's race....

I was able to get the blocks at the end of the track drilled out and replaced (sorta, more later) and new genoa cars installed. The new genoa cars definitely helped a ton! I took the old genoa cars and cleaned them up real good and used them in place of the aft blocks. Not the ideal solution but it worked. I noticed when I took the "good" block off that the center post in the sheave was bent. I was not able to notice it till I had it in my hands and could rotate it in different angles.

The headsail did seem easier to get in. I think there is still too much on the starboard side. The ability to move the aft block around because they are on the old car will probably help with load balancing. 

Also during the race the starboard winch squealed a couple times. There must be something going on inside of it. I will pull it apart again and take a look and see what I can see. I definitely agree with jephotog that we should be able to grind away no problem. Might have to find an expert in the area to put some experienced eyeballs on it.

Good race too. We blew away the competition. Well, all but the Star. When this boat is more dialed in I believe we will gain back some ground on them though! 

Thanks for the ideas! I will update as I learn more. Anything else I should consider please toss it in the thread


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## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

Have an update here...

We have had some light wind days so I have not had too much chance to put big loads on the winches, however the last two times out have been bigger. Unfortunately I am still having issues on the Starboard side. I have changed out the genoa blocks, rearrange their positions, regreased the winch, even tried the smaller sheet.

It _is easier_ to get the sail in now, but not as easy as it should be. In 18 knot winds during our last race it took two people to grind in. :S

At this point the only thing I have not replaced is the winch itself. The winch is a Lewmar 42. Possibly original to the boat in 1983 as I have found not receipts indicating it was ever replaced. How can I tell if the winch is bad? The gears look ok, everything seems to roll fine, what else should I look for?


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

blobaugh said:


> Have an update here...
> 
> We have had some light wind days so I have not had too much chance to put big loads on the winches, however the last two times out have been bigger. Unfortunately I am still having issues on the Starboard side. I have changed out the genoa blocks, rearrange their positions, regreased the winch, even tried the smaller sheet.


It sounds like you've tried everything but cross sheeting. If the port side winch is able to bring the sail in without trouble, then your starboard winch is the problem.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have the same age Lewmar 42's on my boat. I recently took them apart and did a thorough cleaning and greasing. I was surprised that it was so easy to reassemble them wrong if you didn't pay close attention.

While it would be a nuisance to do, it might make sense to carefully disassemble the'good' winch and examine exactly how it is assembled paying close attention to the bearing and spacers, and the locking pins. 

For example, I had accidentally inverted the gear clusters. Oddly, I was able to get the winch back together again but the gear axle was not fully inserted. It took me quite a bit of time to figure out what I had done. (Hint, both gear stacks have a spacer cast into the bottom gear and not the top gear. Those spacers need to be facing down.)

In my defense, I was trying to get the winch back together quickly as it started to drizzle. Needless to say, there was nothing quick about assembling it wrong and redoing it until I figured out what I had done wrong.

Jeff


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

I dont think this tread has adequately considered whether your sheet is leading onto that winch properly. If you do nto have the sheet leading onto the winch within the proper lead angle, results will be unpredictable. Here's a quote from Lwemar:

_Mounting Instructions
See specific model for fastener size and mounting footprint. Lewmar recommends that the rope enters onto the drum at an angle of 5-10° to the base axis of the winch. To achieve this angle it may be necessary to use a base wedge when installing the winch.
_

So does your current sheeting setup duplicate whatever the original designer planned to ensure the proper sheet lead? On newer boats, the designer may cant the coaming tops so the winch has a suitable angle to the jib track, and can work well regardless of where the jib lead block is positioned on the track. On many boats the designer incorporated turning blocks located to the side of the cockpit coaming. The turning blocks ensure the sheet feeds on to the winches with the proper angle regardless of the location of the jib blocks or the angle of the coaming tops.

Note that even with an identical set of block positions, the lead angle will vary some between port and starboard, due to the sheet coming on to a different side of the drum. If the winch is close to the block, this difference could matter.

The PO mentioned in a thread a block located at the end of the jib track which failed. Note blocks will simply fail from age as well as load, so this failure may not indicate excessive load. Does the Lancer 36 have turning blocks and if so, are they still in use? Is there anything different avbout the sheet lead angle in question? As usual a few pictures might help.


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## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

The turning blocks failed due to excessive load. I had 3 blocks fail due to load actually, and the two new genoa cars I purchased warped their shape. 

I do believe there could be high load somehow, however I am leaning more towards the winch being a bit part of the issue. The port winch turns smoothly. 

Lastnight for our race I swapped the drums over, no change. The metal squealing is still happening on the starboard winch, though I cannot find where it is grinding. Had my buddy who is a metal fabricator take a look also and he did not see any excessive wear on metal parts or discover where it was grinding. 

Still flummoxed over here. I did not get a chance to try cross sheeting last night due to the crew I had onboard. I do need to try that soon. If leading it to the port winch makes it easy it has to be an issue with the winch somewhere right?

I will keep poking at it. Really hurting us upwind on a port tack .


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I am curious, did you ever figure out what the problem was?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## blobaugh (May 26, 2011)

Not conclusively. The only element in the mix I have not changed is the starboard winch. My money is leaning toward it being the winch. All the other lines and blocks have been changed out with quality gear.

The starboard winch started making an intermittent squeal a few weeks back. Currently the squeal is consistently happening in high speed mode but rarely in slow. Both myself and a friend who does metal fabrication tried unsuccessfully to determine what is causing the squeal. Since it has been a few weeks I should pull the winch apart again and see if I can find it now.


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## Chery (Mar 28, 2018)

In order to test that winch. Try cross sheeting the jib sheet. Give the sheet a half wrap on the starboard winch (just enough to direct it across to the port winch. Use the port winch to bring the sail in on a port tack. If you have no problem bringing in the sail on the port winch, your problem is in the Stbd winch.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Can you cross sheet the sheet to the starboard winch? If so does it sheet "properly"? That would be a tell that the winch is the problem. If the problem still persists it could be the turning block before the winch. Can you rig a snatch block and not use that turning block? If the problem goes away... the culprit is the turning block. If not then try to rig a snatch block to use instead of the genoa track car/block/lead... if the problem goes away then the car/block/lead is the culprit.

That's how I would located the culprit. And it could be two culprits!

Good luck


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## Jon Bailey (May 16, 2019)

Definitely too small winches. i would recommend either bigger winches, more time in the gym, or when rounding the bottom mark just luffing passed close hauled for a fraction of a second... that'll take the load off and make it easier to get in. If all fails, a bigger boat with bigger winches might be your best option?


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## SeanM26 (Feb 18, 2018)

If the winch was failing and everything else is working normally I don't think he would be blowing up blocks. Something is binding on the opposite side of the failing block in relation to the winch. Or it is an issue with the failing block. 

You have a turning block leading to the winches, and both of those will have different angles depending on the side of the winch they feed to.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I think your problem is mechanical, probably with the winch, but until you sort it out, you can improve your tacks enormously by doing as Jon suggests, using better helmsmanship techniques. Many helmsmen turn the boat way past closehauled when they tack. As a result, you have to load up the sail to keep the boat driving while your crew laboriously grind the loaded sail up to closehauled. If you, the helmsman, stop the turn when the boat is closehauled on the new tack, with the sail streaming along the rail, then your crew can tail in the sheet while the sail is still luffing and unloaded. They can get most of the sheet in while the boat coasts for a second or two. At this point, the helmsman bears off slightly and loads up the sail, and the crew only needs to grind one or two turns of the winch to bring it into final trim. 

Also, sheets over 1/2" are too big for the boat. They probably aren't the cause of this problem, but they sure aren't making your life any easier. I'd get rid of them. When I bought my 35' boat I reduced mine down to 7/16" and they work much better. I suspect people put oversized lines on their boats because they don't realize how strong modern cordage is.


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