# Female ASA Instructors?



## denverd0n

Here's the deal... My wife and I took ASA 103 and 104 last year. I passed both. She only passed the 103. She and I both think this is because the instructor had a kind of "macho" attitude and really wasn't very good at teaching a woman.

This experience somewhat put her off on sailing. The good news is that a month or so ago we did a week long charter in the BVIs and my wife enjoyed it very much. On the last day, she actually suggested that we do some tacking back and forth, just so that she could practice. (FYI, she handles the helm most of the time, while I work the sheets, winches, docklines, etc.)

I think she would like to try again to get her ASA 104 certification, but it would definitely be necessary to find just the right instructor. I'm thinking she would be most open to a woman instructor--or at the very least a man who had a good reputation for teaching women.

So, any suggestions? By the way, we are located in the Tampa, FL area.

Thanks!


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## deniseO30

http://www.womanship.com/

Learn to sail with Her Ladyship Sailing, offering women sailing courses in Annapolis, the Florida Keys, the Bahamas and more!

FWS
Wix.com TEST SITE 1 created by gloriadavis based on Color and Co | Wix.com
The Florida Women's Sailing Association

Founded in 1973 to promote and encourage the growth of women's sailing groups along the West coast of Florida, the FWSA functions to:

Encourage the sport of womens interclub yacht racing
Foster and encourage social fellowships pertaining to all things nautical between member clubs and similar associations
Improve communication between clubs
Forward and advance sailing in all its phases through education and sailing clinics
Promote and coordinate interclub, match team racing and other sailing events for and between its members under uniform rules.

Currently there are eleven member clubs with more than four hundred women racing once a week in their respective sailing clubs on the Florida West Coast. Membership is open and we welcome additional sailing clubs.


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## Donna_F

I don't have a suggestion for a teacher for you, but I do hope your wife hangs in there. It's a very good sign that she's asking to expand her skills. Kudos to you for being patient (as far as I can tell from your post) and encouraging. I've had to ask couples to separate in my nav classes because they can't get along to draw a course on a chart. Heaven knows how they get along on a boat.

Best of luck to her!


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## GCsailor

I am on the other side of the gulf coast, so the instructors I know are in Texas.

Captain Lucy at South Coast Sailing Adventures is superb if you end up here. South Coast Sailing Adventures, Charters and Sailing School


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## jephotog

I don't know if you are still looking and are willing to travel but there is a woman that owns a school in the San Francisco Bay Area. She even wrote the book on it. She was one of the authors of the latest ASA sailing manuals. Her classes are also fairly well prepared the ASA 104 is 3 days as opposed to a 2 day 103/104 combo.

Our Crew

You can make a vacation out of it and sail on the bay, maybe watch the America's Cup boats.


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## Minnewaska

Does Offshore Sailing School in St. Pete, Ft. Meyers or Captiva have any female instructors? Or, is that where you took your lessons?

Funny anecdote. When my wife first learned to sail, I went along. It was great, by the way. The instructor was definitely a bit of a hard a$$. A very good instructor, but we both recall that after he gave an instruction and you complied, he always said "thank you". However, the tone always came across like "F---- you". Still, she learned a lot and even references that he taught her to do things a certain way to this day.

Anyway, during the course, rather than buckle, she took it on. She volunteered to be the one to grind up the main halyard every time. She was not going to be intimidated. Very proud of her. It's just me she doesn't want telling her what to do.


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## wingNwing

If you/she is in the Chesapeake, this guy has a nice approach. I haven't sailed with him, but have met him several times and he's a class act: Chesapeake Flotillas - Women Under Sail


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## eherlihy

Minnewaska said:


> Does Offshore Sailing School in St. Pete, Ft. Meyers or Captiva have any female instructors? Or, is that where you took your lessons?


Offshore Sailing School, a US Sailing (not ASA) affiliate, DOES have female sailing instructors (currently, there is at least one full-time female instructor). However, I do not believe that they have a class that is only for women.

I know of at least one ASA affiliate school in Rhode Island that offers a Women-Teaching-Women program for ASA courses, and marine diesel and elecrical. PM me if you want details.


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## iamregina

Donna_F said:


> I don't have a suggestion for a teacher for you, but I do hope your wife hangs in there. It's a very good sign that she's asking to expand her skills. Kudos to you for being patient (as far as I can tell from your post) and encouraging. I've had to ask couples to separate in my nav classes because they can't get along to draw a course on a chart. Heaven knows how they get along on a boat.
> 
> Best of luck to her!


Same here


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## Caribbeachbum

Please encourage your wife to join the _Women Who Sail _Facebook group. When my wife and I took our ASA classes, she had a similar experience to the one your wife had; and more, found herself being reminded that men and women learn things differently. Guys push the button and just see what happens; women want a lesson on what is going to happen before they push the button. That's my wife's metaphor, btw, and she'll be the very first point out that it's far from a universal truth and neither approach is somehow superior.

Back to topic, she found many women on that Facebook group who think like her, and that made her feel so much better. And there she has found the perfect (or so she's convinced) female instructor to to the lessons over again. I can't tell you her name, because I don't remember. But she's based in Boston, I think, though spends a lot of time in the Bahamas.

A bit of a ramble, sorry - your wife is not alone, and there is a quite large support group waiting there for her. And that will include recommendations on the very best, geographically appropriate, women instructors.


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## PaThomas123

East Carolina Sailing in New Bern, NC has a very well qualified female instructor


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## Daniel5715

Sarah Bay sailing school on Longboat Key. Ask to have Sarah teach.


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## denverd0n

Thought I would follow up, since I first posted this almost three years ago.

My wife has not had any follow-up lessons, and she is okay with that. She has been learning from me, and we have been learning together. She may not have the official certification, but she has become an extremely competent sailor.

We have done a number of bareboat charters in the Bahamas, the USVI and BVI, and around Florida. She is now quite comfortable with sailing, and with taking charge when she needs to. Comfortable enough that for our next charter we are talking about a one-way from St. Lucia to Grenada.


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## twoshoes

PaThomas123 said:


> East Carolina Sailing in New Bern, NC has a very well qualified female instructor


Two of them actually, and I've been a student of both!


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## WindchaserPY23

Call me cynical but I am not sure there are that many Male Chauvinist Pigs still out there, especially in a business that smiles on customers "graduating." Was it the written she failed or the practical? Did the instructor point out her shortfalls and where to practice to get them up to spec? I would go to another facility and ask to challenge the exam on whatever instructor they have.
The more I sail the less I see it being a "man's world." You can give me a skipper that knows what they are doing any day. Or crew for that matter.
btw, I always let the admiral or any greenhorns take the helm as much as possible. It generates a lot of self confidence in the newbies and gets the Admiral prepared when or if I end up over the side!


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## denverd0n

WindchaserPY23 said:


> Call me cynical but I am not sure there are that many Male Chauvinist Pigs still out there...


Call me pragmatic, but it doesn't make any difference at all how MANY there are. When you run into one, it can ruin the experience. At that point, the fact that (in your opinion) there are fewer than there were in the past doesn't make any difference at all!


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## WindchaserPY23

denverd0n said:


> Call me pragmatic, but it doesn't make any difference at all how MANY there are. When you run into one, it can ruin the experience. At that point, the fact that (in your opinion) there are fewer than there were in the past doesn't make any difference at all!


So we paint all male instructors with the same brush. Very narrow minded in my humble opinion. In my many years I have run across good and bad in both genders.


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## ad28

WindchaserPY23 said:


> Call me cynical but I am not sure there are that many Male Chauvinist Pigs still out there
> (snip)
> 
> I always let the admiral or any greenhorns take the helm as much as possible. It generates a lot of self confidence in the newbies and gets the Admiral prepared when or if I end up over the side!


If you refer to your wife as 'the admiral,' you might wanna rethink your perception of chauvinism.


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## denverd0n

WindchaserPY23 said:


> So we paint all male instructors with the same brush. Very narrow minded in my humble opinion. In my many years I have run across good and bad in both genders.


I never painted all male instructors with the same brush, and I am quite certain that I am not the one being narrow minded here.


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## twoshoes

A tongue-in-cheek term of endearment which elevates their wife to a position of leadership above their own is chauvinistic?

I admit I had to look up the definition of chauvinistic to make sure I haven't been mistaken in it's meaning my whole life, but how is saying one's wife gets the final say when it comes to all things boat related is "displaying excessive or prejudiced support for one's own sex?


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## ad28

while you're looking up things, how about researching the definition of 'patronizing.'


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## twoshoes

I attempted to, but it auto-corrected to 'misinterpret'.


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## ad28

not when you're on the receiving end, son... Let's just say it's pretty similar to saying, "oh look aren't they cute when they're little!"


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## twoshoes

Ok, you win. I'll refer to her as Commodore from now on. Hope she doesn't mind the demotion. :wink

Just kidding. Truce?

/thread derail (I Hope. Sorry everybody.)


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## SailingJoanne

That's right, it is best to join support groups


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## IndigoCatalina320

A few years later, and the issue hasn't changed. I'm desperate to find a female instructor to take my wife (and me) through ASA 114.


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## SV Siren

IndigoCatalina320 said:


> A few years later, and the issue hasn't changed. I'm desperate to find a female instructor to take my wife (and me) through ASA 114.


If you are requesting input, a location might be of great help, also a google search can yield some help as well. :wink


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## Minnewaska

Teaching style is very important to learning, so I get the desire to have a compatible teacher. I wonder, however, if it has to be based on gender, rather than temperament, etc. In the end, the sea and the vessel are not going to treat men and women differently.


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## IndigoCatalina320

SV Siren said:


> If you are requesting input, a location might be of great help, also a google search can yield some help as well. /forums/images/SailNet_Toucan/smilies/tango_face_wink.png


Location is of secondary importance, but some warm, sunny climate - Caribbean - would be nice, and ASA114 is a requirement.


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## SanderO

With all due respect.... this is a BS request. Gender should play no role in an educator... sailing, sewing or science. It should play no role for the student.


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## jblumhorst

SanderO said:


> With all due respect.... this is a BS request. Gender should play no role in an educator... sailing, sewing or science. It should play no role for the student.


I agree with "should play no role" but, all to often, that's not the way things actually happen.

I don't agree that this is a "BS request" for a woman to make. If a female student ismore comfortable with a female sailing instructor, that is her prerogative.

.


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## Scandium

jblumhorst said:


> I agree with "should play no role" but, all to often, that's not the way things actually happen.
> 
> I don't agree that this is a "BS request" for a woman to make. If a female student ismore comfortable with a female sailing instructor, that is her prerogative.
> 
> .


Having seen too much of it, this is a standard talking point of neo-reactonaries in the "sexism/racism/whatever doesn't exist anymore" camp. In their mind if there's a club/event/class for girls it's silly (or reverse sexism), because "gender shouldn't matter". Anyone who knows girls in male-dominated fields knows that this is of course nonsense. But the culture can be hard to notice if you're male and don't know what to look for (or don't want to..)


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## Minnesail

It's valid to want a female teacher.

My teacher for 103 and 104 was a woman named Vicki with Northern Breezes Sailing School. She teaches on Lake Superior in the summer which doesn't really fit your "warm, sunny climate" requirement, but teaches in the Caribbean in the winter. I'm not sure if she does 114.

British Virgin Islands, Caribbean, St. Martin Sailing


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## SanderO

I don't deny sexism exists. I don't think we should nourish it. Any teacher who is sexist should be dismissed. I know some incredible female sailors... one was a teacher too. What you want is a good teacher and that has nothing to do with gender. Same applies to crew.... I don't care what the gender is... I do care about competence and compatibility.


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## jeremiahblatz3

SanderO, you're totally right, and also totally wrong (IMO). 

While it's true that gender should play no role, it's also the case that many sailing instructors are not properly equipped with the right emotional, cultural, and pedagogical tools to instruct people who come from a significantly different cultural background than they do. (In other words, many sailing instructors are sexist, racist jerks.)

It is, given the state of sailing culture, extremely unlikely that a woman would become a sailing instructor without developing the tools to handle folks of backgrounds different than her own, and thus should be better equipped. It's an unfortunate request, but also sadly not BS.

I'd suggest that sailing schools that employ women and non-white folks might be better places to learn than ones that are homogenous.


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## RegisteredUser

Lol....
My goodness

What a load of righteous virtual bull poopy


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## SanderO

jeremiahblatz3 said:


> SanderO, you're totally right, and also totally wrong (IMO).
> 
> While it's true that gender should play no role, it's also the case that many sailing instructors are not properly equipped with the right emotional, cultural, and pedagogical tools to instruct people who come from a significantly different cultural background than they do. (In other words, many sailing instructors are sexist, racist jerks.)
> 
> It is, given the state of sailing culture, extremely unlikely that a woman would become a sailing instructor without developing the tools to handle folks of backgrounds different than her own, and thus should be better equipped. It's an unfortunate request, but also sadly not BS.
> 
> I'd suggest that sailing schools that employ women and non-white folks might be better places to learn than ones that are homogenous.


I don't know what sort of people sailing instructors are these days. When I took the Steve Colgate class the teacher was a perfect gentleman and this was not even an issue. I took the course with my wife back in 1985.

Where do you get the idea that most male sailing instructors are sexist pigs?

Ask Joe Cooper....


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## Minnesail

It’s not a matter of instructors being sexist pigs, it’s more subtle than that.

A man can be a “perfect gentleman” but still talk down to women without realizing he’s doing it. He may unconsciously think that women are less knowledgable or less capable, and although he doesn’t realize he’s thinking that and would certainly deny it, it could still affect the way he teaches.

And of course many men are not that way.

But if you’re looking at spending several thousand dollars to take lessons from someone for a week, instead of playing the odds that you get a good male I think a person is within their rights to seek out a female instructor.


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## chall03

SanderO said:


> With all due respect.... this is a BS request. Gender should play no role in an educator... sailing, sewing or science. It should play no role for the student.


No it shouldn't.

Yet....

A previous poster recommended the 'women who sail' Facebook group. I can not recommend this group highly enough (albeit only from a second hand experience as I am not in fact a woman). My wife however is an member of the Australian branch and they are a fantastically active resource for women who wish to sail.

To those (male) posters who wish to try and make a case that chauvinism no longer exists in sailing in their experience(as men) i'll leave you alone to happily continue believing whatever you like


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## Minnewaska

It's remarkable that the suggestion gender should not matter is itself considered sexism or a marker for it. I'm more inclined to think the characterization of men in this thread is the most sexist thing I read. It's a forum that allows for it, not unlike a men's only club would in reverse. Yes, sexism exists. Abundantly both ways. 

I would inherently prefer a male instructor, because they are more likely to be like me and I'm more likely to relate. l would never allow myself to take that poison pill, because it simply perpetuates the division. It's no more valid for a female to generically predetermine other females more capable. 

You pick. If you're okay with segregation, you're okay with it. If you're not, you don't get to proclaim your indulgence to be appropriate.


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## chall03

Minnewaska said:


> It's remarkable that the suggestion gender should not matter is itself considered sexism or a marker for it. I'm more inclined to think the characterization of men in this thread is the most sexist thing I read. It's a forum that allows for it, not unlike a men's only club would in reverse. Yes, sexism exists. Abundantly both ways.
> 
> I would inherently prefer a male instructor, because they are more likely to be like me and I'm more likely to relate. l would never allow myself to take that poison pill, because it simply perpetuates the division. It's no more valid for a female to generically predetermine other females more capable.
> 
> You pick. If you're okay with segregation, you're okay with it. If you're not, you don't get to proclaim your indulgence to be appropriate.


I don't think it's a sexist thing to simply state that 'gender shouldn't matter'. That is a valid comment all things being equal and hopefully that is where we all end up.

However my issue with your viewpoint is that in this specific case it ignores any historical or contextual power imbalance or gender bias. Both of which in my experience have existed in sailing.

Heard of Kay Cottee? She was the first ever female member of my yacht club 30 years ago (and she had to sail solo around the world before she got membership, I just had to get my mate Dave to second me). 30 years is not nearly long enough ago for the yacht club I grew up in to have it's 'first female member' in my books.

So I think it is perfectly understandable and reasonable that some females, entering a historically male dominated sport might find it easier learning with a female instructor.

Whats the big deal with that?


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## SV Siren

Let's just face the fact that men and women are inherently different. Women inter-relate differently between each-other than men more often than not...often it is not a matter of capability as it is how two people interact due to personality types and sometimes pre-dispositions based on gender. 

Chall: you mention the "Women Who Sail" group on facebook, I'm glad your wife has found the Aussie group to be extremely beneficial, I however have not found the US version of that to be the case as much(Mrs. Siren posting here). I did enjoy the group to a point, as I am trying to get into sailing more, but the male bashing that takes place far too often was hard to overlook and I felt I had to leave the group after a few months. After a while the bashing was just too frequent to just keep scrolling and overlook, despite the benefits.


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## SanderO

SV Siren said:


> Let's just face the fact that men and women are inherently different. Women inter-relate differently between each-other than men more often than not...often it is not a matter of capability as it is how two people interact due to personality types and sometimes pre-dispositions based on gender.
> 
> Chall: you mention the "Women Who Sail" group on facebook, I'm glad your wife has found the Aussie group to be extremely beneficial, I however have not found the US version of that to be the case as much(Mrs. Siren posting here). I did enjoy the group to a point, as I am trying to get into sailing more, but the male bashing that takes place far too often was hard to overlook and I felt I had to leave the group after a few months. After a while the bashing was just too frequent to just keep scrolling and overlook, despite the benefits.


Mrs. Siren... and others... I wonder what people do is condescension rather than sexism. I personally don't have much patience for dumb... from wherever it comes. My hunch is that sailing, not unlike many other "things" favors people who can see the big picture... are "mechanically" inclined... can conceptualize 3D and even 4D. My experience is that females are often "educated" to excel at a whole different skill set. (not all but we need to speak in generalities don't we??)

Years ago when I was just under 40 and new to sailing having recently purchased the boat I still own... I met a too young for me woman at a restaurant. She was also polish and a single mother. We started to date despite the age difference. Aside from being good at all the feminine stuff she loved to fix and do things... which struck me as odd. But she was good at it. When she came aboard she took to sailing like a duck to water... That was amazing! I am not referring to lying about on the deck sun bathing... but steering and trimming and so on. WOWSER! Eva was brilliant! I had recently separated from my wife who was lost on the boat and would do nothing because of her fear. My experience is that most females are closer to my ex wife and the Eva. Many don't even want to learn a thing. But the ones that do... are a pleasure to teach... the ones that don't are passengers and need attention and get in the way too often. I find myself (perhaps condescendingly) telling them to sit there and stay out of the way only because the cockpit is small and I need to move around it to tack, gybe, trim and so on... but people who don't help... or don't know how to help are often in the way. That's reality.

I don't know much about yacht clubs... racing... sailing schools. I do think.. anyone interested in these things can READ and research and prepare themselves rather than "show up bright eyed and bushy tailed wanting to be taught." Again... my own experience.... I bought a 36' boat with only a few week ends on the water but AFTER I took a Colgate class with the ex wife. But I also immersed myself with reading and research for a year before I took the course. I read 20 or more books and subscribed to all the sailing magazines which I read cover to cover. For me the class was basically to practice what I had already learned from books.

If someone is serious about learning to sail... in my opinion... before they show up at a class... they should do some serious reading/research.... which is more accessible today that it was in the mid 80s before the www and YouTube. And I think for anyone who DOES do their research... they will only experience sexism from a true dyed in the wool sexist pig. They exist (unfortunately) allover the place.

This guy, Joe Cooper... is a great example of a sailing teacher and savant... and not the least bit sexist. https://www.facebook.com/joe.cooper.142035.

Before you sign for a class... interview the instructors!


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## eherlihy

I am an ASA instructor, I am male, and I am in the USA (I understand that the cultural mores are different in other countries). I have never had a gender specific issue with either a male or female student. Because I am an ASA instructor, I have met and worked with a few female instructors (both ASA and US/Sailing), some of whom are great instructors, and some of whom I would not want to take a course with, let alone have them teach.

I once had a female student shut down on the morning of the first day of ASA 101. She was the female half of a married couple. After her initial turn at the helm, she refused to take the helm again and as a result she did not pass the class. To be fair to her, she was scared. Her turn at the helm consisted of my helping her in bringing the boat back to the marina where we started so that I could reef the main. Winds had picked up to about 18kts from under 10 when we left the mooring. Reefing is normaly covered later in the class. However, I believe that the main issue in this case was that the sailing dream was his, and she was attending the class to appease him. I believe that she shut down because she was terrified of failing in the eyes of her spouse.

She was able to act this way because her spouse was on the boat with her. In effect, he was her crutch. If she had either been with a group of friends or people that she did not know, she would not have shut down as she did. If not for his presence on the boat, she would have either risen to the challenge of taking the helm again, or quit the class because sailing was not for her. I have experienced similar behavior when trying to teach (ex)girlfriends how to (snow) ski.

Whenever possible I prefer to split "couples" into seperate boats for ASA 101.

Regarding the OP; Did your wife fail the written or the practical portion of ASA 104? If she failed the written, she needs to study the book or spend more time aboard a boat. If she failed the practical, I suggest that she does not need to take a course with a female instructor, she simply needs to take the course without you.

For those reading this other than the OP; In ASA 103 students are taught to manuver a 30+ foot boat, dock, and anchor. They are also introduced to the mechanical systems on the boat and COLREGS. In ASA 104 students are taught how to provision, more about systems and COLREGS, and how to navigate with a chart. 104 classes also leave the marina overnight. See https://asa.com/certifications/

From my perspective 103 is a harder course to teach, and pass, than 104.


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## Scandium

SanderO said:


> . they will only experience sexism from a true dyed in the wool sexist pig. They exist (unfortunately) allover the place.


This is basically what the issue is. For most straight males sexism is just the overt kind and something nasty psychos do (wife beaters and such) not "normal guys" like them (us, since I am one). This ignore the subtle, sometimes subconscious kind that is especially rampant in male-dominated fields. Talking down to women, "mansplaining", addressing the man and ignoring the women in a couple, assuming women are ignorant or uninterested, etc. This of course often ends up being self-fulfilling as the women will not be particularly interested in anything where she is treated this way.. I have thought male-dominated sports myself and had to constantly evaluate my behavior to avoid doing these things, and sometimes I fail as it is so ingrained in our culture. Not to mention that even today girls from a young age are taught to be less assertive, and that technical things are "not for them". Of course I don't assume you'll agree, or even acknowledge any of this but thought it post it for others.


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## SanderO

Scandium said:


> This is basically what the issue is. For most straight males sexism is just the overt kind and something nasty psychos do (wife beaters and such) not "normal guys" like them (us, since I am one). This ignore the subtle, sometimes subconscious kind that is especially rampant in male-dominated fields. Talking down to women, "mansplaining", addressing the man and ignoring the women in a couple, assuming women are ignorant or uninterested, etc. This of course often ends up being self-fulfilling as the women will not be particularly interested in anything where she is treated this way.. I have thought male-dominated sports myself and had to constantly evaluate my behavior to avoid doing these things, and sometimes I fail as it is so ingrained in our culture. Not to mention that even today girls from a young age are taught to be less assertive, and that technical things are "not for them". Of course I don't assume you'll agree, or even acknowledge any of this but thought it post it for others.


No I don't agree with much of what you wrote. I have never been sexist. Don't do mansplainin... and don't ignore the female half of a couple... ever. I do explain things I understand to any HUMAN who doesn't understand... and wants to learn.

I don't participate in any sports and stopped after little league. I don't attend to follow spectator sports for a number of reasons and one of them being the macho hyper competitive aggressive nature of team sports. I played tennis for a while not to win... but for the exercise. I don't go for guys hanging out and drinking and acting very male/sexist... at the local bar or at a yacht club.

But this thread is not about me or you... but about sailing school instructors... As far as I am concerned... an instructor that does not treat males and females the same should not have the job. PERIOD My grand daughters are bring brought up to believe that boys and girls are equal but different. One of my grand daughters is like me... she does gymnastics for the joy and to compete only with herself.... just like her grandpa sails.


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## Donna_F

Okay folks. Please stop. This is on the verge of going from borderline to worse.


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## RegisteredUser

Yeh....get real.
Been many years since ASA spec'd a chainsaw as required teaching tool.

Just go forth...to learn. Challenge your instructor. Ask a lot of...why's
Make it fun.
Wet the rail and learn you wont die...


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