# Couples living aboard how goes the relationship



## Dayton49 (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm looking to live aboard in a few years with my wife. We will be empty nesters and would love to hear from other couples that are in the process of moving to the lifestyle or have been living aboard. How has the stress of the change and limited space affected your relationship? What stories do you have you wouldn't mind sharing with us. My wife and I have a very strong relationship and we complement each other very well. Hopefully living in such close quarters all the time won't change that. One more thing, has anyone seen a sailboat not 70 feet or more that has a Queen/King size berth one thing that would make the transition easier for my wife, I tend to be a bed hog maybe because I’m 6’2 and not small.


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## DavidB.UK (Sep 11, 2011)

Dayton49 said:


> I'm looking to live aboard in a few years with my wife. We will be empty nesters and would love to hear from other couples that are in the process of moving to the lifestyle or have been living aboard. How has the stress of the change and limited space affected your relationship? What stories do you have you wouldn't mind sharing with us. My wife and I have a very strong relationship and we complement each other very well. Hopefully living in such close quarters all the time won't change that. One more thing, has anyone seen a sailboat not 70 feet or more that has a Queen/King size berth one thing that would make the transition easier for my wife, I tend to be a bed hog maybe because I'm 6'2 and not small.


Will follow this thread with keen interest!

I am planning to be a liveaboard very soon, I am single now but do not intend to live out my days as such and I have wondered how couples get on in a liveaboard capacity. With regard to your bed question...

This is the aft cabin on my 'someday' boat:









Isn't she pretty!









If however your budget does not stretch to such luxury...
Mine doesn't either (but you have to have a dream)

I found a few boats that have the kind of layout you are referring to, to my knowledge the type of bed (like you describe) is known as a *centreline double* or *centreline queen* bed.

From my time browsing the classified I found that not every boat that has this configuration is advertised as such. So you may have to scour a number of ads.

I found that the *Hunter Passage 42* looked to be a lot of boat for the money, but the online consensus seems to be that they are great boats but built to a budget and as such are not ideal extended blue water boats.
(Just in case I open a can of worms and upset HP42 owners... The above is only the feeling that I have got from reading forums etc. and an HP42 is still one of the boats on my list in-spite of the above!)

Here is the aft cabin from a (2000) hunter passage 42:









And a different (1995) HP42:









The smallest boat I found with this kind of layout was 34ft, but I can't remember what it was. There are a number of manufacturers make boats with this configuration from 36ft upwards, but it is more common as you go bigger.


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## bvander66 (Sep 30, 2007)

We moved aboard 7 years ago, on the dock for 4 years and then cruising the past 3 years. One of the conditions was to have a home base, so we invested in a condo, rent it out, but that way have a home base. 
The big shocks are lack of storage and the major downsizing you need to do. We did this in stages, getting rid of most items and then pushed what was left into storage. After first year downsized storage buy getting rid of more and giving some to kids. By third year we emptied storage.
The other key is to make the boat a home, as much unlike camping as you can. We dumped all the plastic stuff and moved our china (robust), silverware and glasses aboard. Added lots of pictures, and a digital frame helped a lot as well. Throw rugs and some pillows help.
Good comms home to friends and family tend to be more important to women as well, so cater for that.
As for boat, dont need 70', lots of boats in 40' range have a queen sized berth. Ours is a 41 with an aft cabin with a tapered berth slightly shorter than a queen and a bit wider.
Our relationship has become even stronger over the past years. Certainly not all roses and there are road bumps but if you work as a team and good communication and shared decision making it works great.
An old sailor once said "living aboard will make a strong couple stronger and end a weak marriage."


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## waterwks4me (Jan 16, 2010)

Although at this time my wife and I are not yet full live aboards we have spent a few months on the boat at a time. At the end of this year I am retiring and we plan on moving aboard at that time. We just moved up from a 32' to a 38' which does have a queen size berth in the aft cabin. Obviously how well you get along with your wife will depend on how well you transition to the boat. The long times we spent on the boat was no problem for us at all thus lead us to the desire to live aboard. I can always find a place on the boat to be by myself if I feel the need to be alone for awhile. A good dinghy ride also helps.


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

@DavidB.UK you can get ANY woman to live aboard with you in that beauty!  What is it a Jeanneau?


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## DavidB.UK (Sep 11, 2011)

sailguy40 said:


> @DavidB.UK you can get ANY woman to live aboard with you in that beauty!  What is it a Jeanneau?


Oyster 625

Isn't it gorgeous! 





http://www.oystermarine.com/fleet/625/default.aspx


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Oyster 625 about 3 M Euros

At a more affordable level the Hunter Passage 42 has the best aft cabin under 45 ft and 100k US of all the boats I looked at.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

SWMBO and I and Finn largely live aboard Whiskeyjack from April to October. What we have learned:
1. The stuff that bothers each of you about each other in 2000 sq ft on land does not magically go away in less than 200 sq ft on water. Learn to communicate, consider and compromise. 
2. If you take it out, put it away. Now.
3. Each new item onboard means an old item has to leave.
4. It's okay to not talk.
5. One cooks, one does dishes. Helping doesn't help.
6. When the dawg needs shore patrol, the dawg. needs. shore. patrol. now.
7. Find your own quiet spot, whether it is the v-berth, quarter berth, foredeck or cockpit.
8. You don't have to get there today. You don't even have to get there tomorrow.
9. When docking, mooring, anchoring, tacking or damn near anything goes awry, talk it out, then hug it out.
10. There is a difference between being heard, and yelling.


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## Dayton49 (Apr 16, 2011)

I like the idea of finding your own space, thats something that we have needed to do on land too. I have my garage gym and she has her office space to make her own. I'm thinking we work out a separate space for each to have as our own. Thanks for all the responses so far keep em coming please. Glad to hear a mid 40 could be a good fit, I'm hoping that we will be able to see several next week when we are at Flagler for vacation. I see a Benneteau dealer just outside of Jacksonville. hopefully I'll find a couple of marina's with dealerships so we can see inside a bunch.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

That Oyster video is incredible...man, I wish I had a spare few million Euro. Hey, if the crisis keeps going, maybe that'll come down to $1M USD


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

night0wl said:


> That Oyster video is incredible...man, I wish I had a spare few million Euro. Hey, if the crisis keeps going, maybe that'll come down to $1M USD


If you do end up getting your wish, you can sell me your Beneteau


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## DavidB.UK (Sep 11, 2011)

night0wl said:


> That Oyster video is incredible...man, I wish I had a spare few million Euro. Hey, if the crisis keeps going, maybe that'll come down to $1M USD


The guys at Oyster are really lovely, just as lovely as the yachts they build.
They are based in the UK and when I asked if I could visit, I told them straight that a new oyster is many years away but they treated me as if I were ready to sign the papers that day!

Spent some time with me to look around a couple of different boats, new and few years old, I have their current brochure sitting on my desk as a daily reminder!

What an absolute pleasure to meet the staff there, the chap I spoke to enquired about my potential timeframe and told me that they have had customers with 10 year timelines that have visited and eventually commissioned a new Oyster and many customers that upgrade to a newer and/or bigger Oyster.

Definitely my *'someday'* boat


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## waterwks4me (Jan 16, 2010)

bljones - well said.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

My wife and I have lived aboard with our dog Shamus since October 2010. We have a very close relationship and actually still miss each other daily after 16 years of marriage. We were fully matured independent adults when we met which I think allowed us to establish such a close relationship. We do not seek out our own space on our 40ft. boat. Instead we stay within arms reach of each other at most times. We share in the maintenance and cleaning of the boat. We both have our strengths and we accept that.

We do many activities off the boat too. Mountain biking, skiing, hiking, scuba diving, etc.

Our secret is love and respect. We are best friends and have eliminated the words never and always from our vocabulary. We can be brutally honest with each other any time we need to be. 

Living aboard can be very difficult for some couples. Coastal cruising for at least 2 weeks will help you decide if you can do this. 

Making sure you both agree up front on what features the boat should have and why. We thought we wanted a queen center berth but that invariably meant CC which neither of us wanted. Our pullman is quite adequate and there is even room for Shamus at our feet. I am 6'0" and my wife is 5'10".

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## GCsailor (Oct 3, 2010)

My 38 foot Catalina has a queen sized bed in the aft cabin which is very comfortable. Also, the cabin height is 6' 7" which is important for a person of your size.


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## DavidB.UK (Sep 11, 2011)

GCsailor said:


> My 38 foot Catalina has a queen sized bed in the aft cabin which is very comfortable. Also, the cabin height is 6' 7" which is important for a person of your size.


The Catalina looks like a lovely boat for sure *BUT...* the height above the bed in the aft cabin means that the aft cabin isn't going to be much good for a couple to get up to anything other than sleeping...









...Sitting up in bed reading for example


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## Dayton49 (Apr 16, 2011)

The Oyster looks like a beautifull boat, they seem to be much more available in europe and quite expensive in comparison. If I happen to win the lotto I'll have to put it at the top of my list.


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## Dayton49 (Apr 16, 2011)

The aft cabin on the Catalina looks something like the MRI I had to be removed from after realizing I had become claustrophobic at some point. That being said its good to know a smaller boat could still have a large enough berth for our needs. Checking it out in person should give me a better idea. Boat show here we come.


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## DavidB.UK (Sep 11, 2011)

The other boat to consider could be the Pearson 37 (condo boat).

That to is one of my favourites, it doesn't have an aft cabin, but does have a centerline island bed instead of a V-berth.

and at 37ft it's not huge either!


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

And not one person even mentioned a 40' catamaran?


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Our only home has been a 33-foot sailboat for the last 10 years (7 dockside & 3 cruising). Close quarters has definitely made our already solid marriage better. Perforce, communicatiion is better and we know what each other is thinking without need for words, now. 2 things help: (1) figure out what makes *you* feel like you're camping out and address that, as others have said on this thread. Plastic dishes? No freezer? For me, it was walking back from a public bathhouse with wet hair ... so being able to take hot showers aboard was non-negotiable. (2) The second thing that helps -- virtual privacy. You can't really get away from each other but you can have enough respect for mental space - no shoulder-surfing, reading each others rough drafts without permission, commenting on overheard cellphone conversations or (*bathroom noises*) etc etc.

We both learned to sail the same way, the same time, from the same sources, so we don't fight about approaches to technical problems. Although I'm the better navigator and he's the better sail-trimmer, we basically are equal partners in sailing and cruising. We also have a sailing rule that whoever has the more conservative approach rules. If one wants to reef and the other doesn't, we reef. If one wants to try a shortcut but the other is nervous about the shoal, we go the long way around. Deciding this a priori means we never get into fights underway, and one doesn't scare the other.

LOVE LOVE LOVE this life! No plans to move back to land - or even to a bigger boat - until our bodies give out. And then, only reluctantly.


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## Dayton49 (Apr 16, 2011)

TropicCat said:


> And not one person even mentioned a 40' catamaran?


We have been considering a catamaran, it just seems to double the pricetag.


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## sloss321 (Jul 5, 2012)

*Definitely*

TropicCat

My wife and I went to the Annoplis boat show and fell in love with the Leopard 39 because we figured it would have the room for our two dogs as well as space for kids if and when we have them. However, we would have to put the dream off till much later because of the price. What's your opinion on getting what you need and can afford now and upgrading later?


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## Dayton49 (Apr 16, 2011)

*Re: Definitely*



sloss321 said:


> TropicCat
> 
> My wife and I went to the Annoplis boat show and fell in love with the Leopard 39 because we figured it would have the room for our two dogs as well as space for kids if and when we have them. However, we would have to put the dream off till much later because of the price. What's your opinion on getting what you need and can afford now and upgrading later?


We do plan on working up to what we need to live aboard, starting with some sailing lessons at the lake near us, followed by a smaller boat on the lake. Baby steps, were not ready to go hole hog since we have a few more years till our nest is empty.


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## miss medic (Jul 11, 2012)

sailguy40 said:


> @DavidB.UK you can get ANY woman to live aboard with you in that beauty!  What is it a Jeanneau?


Agreed!


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## elspru (Jul 28, 2012)

We sleep on a single twin size bed (the smallest mattress size), though I'm 5'8" and she's 5'4". 
We tried a queen once, but it was too big, and not cuddly enough so we threw it out. 
On our single our cat oftentimes sleeps under or betwixt our feet. 

Personally I'd rather stay away from those large boats that can't be singlehanded, else how would we take shifts?
Also the bigger the boat, the bigger the "Boom", which is bad enough if someone gets caught on a dinghy.
Also bigger boats have more draught so have fewer places to go, and have to be farther from shore.

We were planning on something in the 24-30ft range, 
that we can buy in cash, as have intense aversion to debt.
That way as soon as we buy something, can save for next thing.

We do intend on having a landbase later on also, 
so can dock and do various projects, like boat building,
permaculture provisioning, resource harvesting and storage.
Hopefully by then the canadian residential bubble will burst,
if so perhaps we could get a place big enough for a marina.


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## DavidB.UK (Sep 11, 2011)

TropicCat said:


> And not one person even mentioned a 40' catamaran?


Personally speaking I would not consider a cat for anything other than a play thing.

I have done lots of sailing on little hobbie cats and the like, when they go over IF they end up upside down they are a pain to right single handed. It can be done but it's a pain.

For that reason I would rather have a monohull, just for the peace of mind that if ever I got caught in a storm big enough to tip her over, a monohull would right again automatically, if not far more easily than an upside down cat.

Granted I am not speaking from personal experience of either scenario when it comes to cruising yachts but certainly true for small sailing boats in my experience.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

We lived aboard a GulfStar 50 ketch for roughly 5 years. And we just bought a CT 56 to liveaboard. 
Besides the required stripping down of excess baggage, I have found that keeping issues like the smell of diesel and or leaks from the deck from occurring are worth their weight in gold, in supporting marital bliss, besides the obvious physical advantages.
Your wife should "see" the value and enjoyment of cruising for her to truly sign onto this lifestyle for the long run. 
So, as in any lifestyle / cohabitation, keep it interesting. Plan some trips conservatively, i.e., not too taxing, which will provide the "why we do this" reasons to her, so she can have something to offset the negatives.
For instance, we cruised the entire Eastern Seaboard a couple years ago, from Fort Lauderdale to Boothbay Harbor Maine; stopping EVERYWHERE. She still tells people this was one of her best experiences of her life.
And finally, avoid exposing her to cruising on bad weather days. If you're crossing the Gulf Stream from Florida to the Bahamas, WAIT until you won't be "rolling" the whole way.
The difference between a great experience and Hell on earth will frequently be directly related to the weather / winds / waves.
As far as boat size.... bigger IS better.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

WingNWing have all the right answers! We've been married since '70 and living aboard since '72. It's working so far.


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## youmeandthed (Jan 19, 2012)

Umm, if you have secrets, you won't after sailing around together. Why? Because spending so much time together is great for your marriage and eventually everything comes out. I think a lot of people go through this kinda fear that their marriage will be ruined, but really cruising together will be amazing and any underlying cracks in your marital foundation will start to show because the bandaids are removed. The cover up you use to blend into a society where everyone judges you and you care what people think of you.

The problems that arise have nothing to do with the lack of space and everything to do with the lack of stress and abundance of time and space.

Seriously is sleeping in close quarters with your better half an issue? Then maybe you should be asking yourself why it is an issue and not us fool s on the web their opinion on boat size.


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## ThirdCoastSailor (Mar 27, 2010)

Dayton49 said:


> The aft cabin on the Catalina looks something like the MRI I had to be removed from after realizing I had become claustrophobic at some point. That being said its good to know a smaller boat could still have a large enough berth for our needs. Checking it out in person should give me a better idea. Boat show here we come.


I've been in an MRI machine and I have a Catalina 380. There is NO comparison. There is a lot more room than it appears in the photo. Plenty of room to read in an inclined position. We don't live aboard by we have been on board for a week at a time and space in the aft cabin has not been an issue.

Would be interested to know what you end up with.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

elspru said:


> We sleep on a single twin size bed (the smallest mattress size), though I'm 5'8" and she's 5'4".
> We tried a queen once, but it was too big, and not cuddly enough so we threw it out.
> On our single our cat oftentimes sleeps under or betwixt our feet.
> 
> ...


We have a Ta Chiao CT 56, ketch, *and we can single hand her*. She has a 6.5 foot draft. We also have a walk around queen size aft bunk, with couches on either side of that; and 2 other staterooms, with 2 heads and 2 stall showers. She also has a washer and dryer, a full galley, a dinette, a large main salon with a spacious floor instead of a narrow path.... etc., etc.

So, some people can live in a very confined space, and some of them will rationalize why they like that; but others choose to live more comfortably, without having to rationalize anything.

Choose what you want, but don't tell me you have to live in a little boat.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> So, some people can live in a very confined space, and some of them will rationalize why they like that; but others choose to live more comfortably, without having to rationalize anything.
> 
> Choose what you want, but don't tell me you have to live in a little boat.


I can't speak for the poster in question , but I CHOOSE a little boat- I don't have to rationalize anything.
Do you have to rationalize coming across as a condescending jerk, doug?
For a guy trying to make a living in the charter (aka customer service) business, your posts filled with arrogance and insulting condescension demonstrates that your people skills just plain suck.


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## macswift (Jul 30, 2012)

I've recently written a page on my website on the risks and rewards of living aboard which includes the issue regarding personal relationships. At the risk of breaking the forum rules here's a link to it:~
How Living Aboard a Sailboat Worked Out for the Crew of Alacazam
Moderator ~ Are you happy with this? If not, profuse apologies...


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## dgasmd (Mar 31, 2011)

Dayton49 said:


> I'm looking to live aboard in a few years with my wife. We will be empty nesters and would love to hear from other couples that are in the process of moving to the lifestyle or have been living aboard. How has the stress of the change and limited space affected your relationship? What stories do you have you wouldn't mind sharing with us. My wife and I have a very strong relationship and we complement each other very well. Hopefully living in such close quarters all the time won't change that. One more thing, has anyone seen a sailboat not 70 feet or more that has a Queen/King size berth one thing that would make the transition easier for my wife, I tend to be a bed hog maybe because I'm 6'2 and not small.


Don't take this offensively even though it may come off that way, but have you thought about loosing some weight in the first place? I don't mean it just to be able to fit in a boat or particular size bed, which would be the most ridiculous reason in the world, but for all the other benefits in addition to it. It certainly would make a world of difference in your health, you relationship, your way of living in general, your comfort 24/7, and would help you enjoy life in general much more. Despite you being 6'2", it will feel like you are another person all of the sudden. Most of us carry too much baggage (in other words, we are too fat) and continuously try to compensate by getting bigger everything around us instead of trying to address the problem in the first place. Just a suggestion!!

I know it is un-american to suggest you loose some weight rather than buying a much bigger boat and spending more money in buying something instead, but I will take one for the team


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

bljones said:


> I can't speak for the poster in question , but I CHOOSE a little boat- I don't have to rationalize anything.
> Do you have to rationalize coming across as a condescending jerk, doug?
> For a guy trying to make a living in the charter (aka customer service) business, your posts filled with arrogance and insulting condescension demonstrates that your people skills just plain suck.


And your tone and speaking skills are something to be applauded? REally?

As far as the discussion which you are commenting on, the gentleman who I replied to had indicated that only a small boat, (30 footer), could be single handed. Which therefore came with the sleeping accomodations of a twin bed for he and his partner.

I felt the inspiration to point out to the general population, and specifically the original poster, that you actually do not have to have such a small boat to single hand her.

And, yes, I used the word "rationalize" because from my view that is what that poster was doing, perhaps more to himself and his partner than seriously to us, as his reasoning for their limited accomodations.

I could better accept someone saying that they selected a smaller boat in order to experience the greater speed and manueverabilty vs. a heavy displacement vessel. But, not that only small boats can be single handed.

I have solo sailed 50 + footers, for decades, as many others may also do, and can simply not mutely read that this is not possible.

This thread might be read by future or hopeful liveaboard people and I felt they should have a wider range of experiences to draw from, which they could make better informed decsions from.

I am sorry that you feel that my support of a larger displacement yacht is perceived as condescending to you; however, for a liveaboard vessel I honestly feel that size does matter, and shouldn't be kept out of the discussion in order to avoid hurting someones' feelings.

I have had my share of a "hard life", probably much worse than yours, so I have worked very hard to build my life into one in which my wife and I can be as comfortable as possible. There is nothing wrong with that, and nobody should fault us for our "success". If you don't like to hear it, or see it, don't look at it.

But, calling me names and such, is not the mature or adult response to that which might be beyond your reach.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

dgasmd said:


> Don't take this offensively even though it may come off that way, but have you thought about loosing some weight in the first place? I don't mean it just to be able to fit in a boat or particular size bed, which would be the most ridiculous reason in the world, but for all the other benefits in addition to it. It certainly would make a world of difference in your health, you relationship, your way of living in general, your comfort 24/7, and would help you enjoy life in general much more. Despite you being 6'2", it will feel like you are another person all of the sudden. Most of us carry too much baggage (in other words, we are too fat) and continuously try to compensate by getting bigger everything around us instead of trying to address the problem in the first place. Just a suggestion!!
> 
> I know it is un-american to suggest you loose some weight rather than buying a much bigger boat and spending more money in buying something instead, but I will take one for the team


Oh come on man..... the poster was nicely asking for some honest information toward he and his wife reaching for the liveaboard life and you suggest weight watchers?

He and his wife want a comfortable spacious vessel. There is nothing wrong with that, and that is quite easily obtained. Provide your knowledge toward his goal instead of your anti-obesity rhetoric.

To the original poster.... Buy as big a boat as you can afford. Weight watchers is for an entirely different web site.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Doug, the problem with "buy as big a boat as you can afford" is that only a more experienced person knows what that implies. I wonder if someone new to to boating wouldn't be taking on too much with a 50+ footer? There is a lot to learn about managing a complex boat, not to mention sailing and docking (which I agree with you on- no big deal to do singlehanded once you have the experience). I have to say that I think my 35ft boat is just about ideal for me and my family. I have all the comforts I need and have kept the systems as simple as possible. I can handle all the maintenance and it takes only a few minutes to put up the sails to go sailing (and a few to put the boat to bed). It's very comfortable inside and the cockpit is better than any I've seen on any boat to date. The best part is that we don't feel like we're slaves to the boat- always fixing, cleaning, adjusting, revamping, resealing, repairing and so on. There are people who are happy living on small boats and people who are happy living on big boats. The challenge is knowing what size you need BEFORE you have the experience of living on both big and small boats. I think that a smaller boat has so many advantages over a big boat, but that's just me. However, I would only consider a small boat that had exceptional storage so that EVERYTHING is stowed in its place. There is NOTHING worse than a cluttered small boat!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

copacabana said:


> Doug, the problem with "buy as big a boat as you can afford" is that only a more experienced person knows what that implies. I wonder if someone new to to boating wouldn't be taking on too much with a 50+ footer? There is a lot to learn about managing a complex boat, not to mention sailing and docking (which I agree with you on- no big deal to do singlehanded once you have the experience). I have to say that I think my 35ft boat is just about ideal for me and my family. I have all the comforts I need and have kept the systems as simple as possible. I can handle all the maintenance and it takes only a few minutes to put up the sails to go sailing (and a few to put the boat to bed). It's very comfortable inside and the cockpit is better than any I've seen on any boat to date. The best part is that we don't feel like we're slaves to the boat- always fixing, cleaning, adjusting, revamping, resealing, repairing and so on. There are people who are happy living on small boats and people who are happy living on big boats. The challenge is knowing what size you need BEFORE you have the experience of living on both big and small boats. I think that a smaller boat has so many advantages over a big boat, but that's just me. However, I would only consider a small boat that had exceptional storage so that EVERYTHING is stowed in its place. There is NOTHING worse than a cluttered small boat!


Good points..... but, for a liveaboard, I'd rather start with the largest possible and learn that, then when that phase is behind me, we have the space for comfortable living.
When we had the 50 foot GulfStar, as large as that was, when we were in the main salon, there was only a relatively small area between the opposing settee and couch to walk through. So, when we both wanted to move / walk, it was a tight maneuver to walk past each other. The boat we have now has an open floor space, which is large enough to dance upon. 
 
As far as the amount of time it takes to raise or lower the sails, well, there might be a few seconds more time to raise each of them, just because they are a bit higher, but I'm not in the Americas Cup racing, so a few seconds isn't anything of value to me.
I still have one halyard for one sail, and a pair of sheets per forward sail(s). 
I haven't noticed any additional hassles or time to deploy those, or furl them either. It is the same configuration, the same lines, just slightly longer, and or, slightly larger all the way around.

As far as docking, the bigger the boat, as I have experienced, the smoother she pulls into or leaves a dock. This boat is 65,000 lbs., with a full keel and a 135 hp Ford Lehman. It has hydraulic steering too. As I learned a long time ago, for dock maneuvers, go as slow as you can, and with this larger boat, the currents and wind have a much lower influence on the boat when docking. Clearly a lighter boat will be more easily affected by those influences. This one is like a slow moving train, which requires a lot more energy to make it deviate from where I am directing her to go.

As far as keeping her "simple", from the key in the ignition to the throttle / shifter controls, to the lines / sheets, and the navigation equipment, all of these I had in a smaller boat, and are neither new things to deal with, nor are they any more involved than the smaller boat ones. Depth, wind velocity / direction, auto helm, SOG, etc., are the same issues regardless of size.

And, if I have a bigger "family" onboard, everyone is out of the way, more often than not, instead of having to be directed where to sit, or where to go.

More space will require more sandpaper and varnish, without any argument.
Longer wires if you need to add a device are required, larger tanks to clean, bigger sheets for the bigger beds, larger tables to wipe down, larger shower stalls to wash the walls of, bigger floor space to vacuum or mop, more windows and port lights to clean, bigger couches to fluff the pillows on, and all the other slightly greater tasks involved with a larger living space are unarguably more not less laborious. But, do I really mind having to vacuum or mop more than a small walk way so much that I don't like a spacious floor plan? Really? No, I like having the space and have never minded maintaining it.

Even maintaining the engine is basically the same. There is one oil filter, one input and return fuel line, etc., though it does contain more oil.... and instead of one gallon per hour this runs 2 gallons per hour, including the 8 kw diesel generator.... not a real problem, considering I generally run the motr for about 1 hour at the most from the dock until I raise the larger sails, and then press the same size engine kill button to turn that off.... 

It isn't any more complex than the smaller one, just stronger, and bigger.

What I have already mentioned is not a "plus" vs a smaller sailboat is the amount of low wind speed, and maneuverability. A large displacement boat requires more wind to move along, requires more space to turn around in, and is clearly not as "nimble".

I could also mention that it requires bigger waves to rock us! I have been delighted by the fact that when a motor boat goes flying by me, I am barely affected!!!! Cool, VERY cool!

So, all in all, my "family" is more comfortable, and less bounced around, not to mention SAFER since they are less likely to break a rib by being thrown around, or worse yet, thrown overboard.

Come on out with me, and note how relaxing it is being able to really stretch out, and remain that way while you read a book, or just watch the waves go by the hull.

This isn't camping out, this is comfortable relaxing living; and isn't that what a liveaborad should be?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> And your tone and speaking skills are something to be applauded? REally?
> 
> As far as the discussion which you are commenting on, the gentleman who I replied to had indicated that only a small boat, (30 footer), could be single handed. Which therefore came with the sleeping accomodations of a twin bed for he and his partner.
> 
> ...


Don't attempt to make your problem my problem, Doug. I don't care to hear about your rationalization for owning a big boat because a) it's not that interesting and b) has nothing to do with the topic at hand, unless your reason for buying the biggest boat your insurance company will pay for is so that your wife has some room to escape your overbearing oversized over rationalizing ego.
Whatever, Doug, you keep rationalizing your boat, your attitude, your philosophy, your overcompensation, you do whatever you have to do to justify why you react the way you do, and i will continue to charter from someone else...
because folks who sail small boats often do so , so they can afford to charter bigger boats once or twice a year... and they likely won't charter from a captain who sneers at their choice of primary vessel.
It might behoove you to learn about search engines, SEO and how your snailtrail follows you when you use the web.

You could have taken my post in the manner it was intended, viewed it constructively.and taken it to heart. instead ,you chose to continue to be you. Good luck.

BTW, regarding "name calling"- I call 'em as i see 'em- you wouldn't get your Hanes in a hitch if i called you a genius, master seaman, or a sailor extraodinaire, so don't start whining when you get called something you DON'T like. If you don't like what i and others have called you, the problem isn't me.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Overall, I should mention that while we were living in Fort Lauderdale, our slip was on Isle of Venice, a concentrated location for sailboats, and we witnessed numerous middle aged to recently retired couples taking possession of their new possession / sailboat.

On more than a few of these observations / exposures, these people proudly exclaimed their logic in buying a "starter" sailboat to learn on, and then per their plan, they would trade up when ready.

Well, on every single one of those gyrations we witnessed, when that couple finally made their first crossing of the Gulf Stream, they returned totally depressed, not to mention frightened. 

They were bounced to death. Their 30 something footers were like scooters on interstate 95, i.e., not what you want, especially with less knowledge to know how to deal with the waves and following sea.

And then after a few days, they would quietly proclaim that their boats were for sale.
Sadly, because they started small, their dream came to an uncomfortable end.

From there, what did they do to replace their retirement or middle age plans and dreams?
RVs, Cruise lines, or Delta Airlines, or nothing at all.....

We saw this too many times for me to keep my mouth shut when someone is asking for my advice.

Buy as big as you can afford, and enjoy in reality what you dreamed of.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

How big was the boat you sank, doug?


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

bljones said:


> How big was the boat you sank, doug?


We abandoned a 50 foot GulfStar ketch after a 900 foot oil tanker destroyed her. Maybe, had we been on a smaller vessel, I might not be here to reply to your query.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

And yet many many many folks have successfully sailed around the world in boats under 40 feet. many many foklks have successfully lived aboard boats under 40 feet. many folks have built careers around living on boats under 40 feet...

Why can't you do it doug?
As I said, don't make your problem my problem. denigrating the choice others make doesn't make your choice stronger.
It just makes you look... well, like you.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

bljones said:


> Don't attempt to make your problem my problem, Doug. I don't care to hear about your rationalization for owning a big boat because a) it's not that interesting and b) has nothing to do with the topic at hand, unless your reason for buying the biggest boat your insurance company will pay for is so that your wife has some room to escape your overbearing oversized over rationalizing ego.
> Whatever, Doug, you keep rationalizing your boat, your attitude, your philosophy, your overcompensation, you do whatever you have to do to justify why you react the way you do, and i will continue to charter from someone else...
> because folks who sail small boats often do so , so they can afford to charter bigger boats once or twice a year... and they likely won't charter from a captain who sneers at their choice of primary vessel.
> It might behoove you to learn about search engines, SEO and how your snailtrail follows you when you use the web.
> ...


This is what you posted to me: "Do you have to rationalize coming across as a condescending jerk, doug?
For a guy trying to make a living in the charter (aka customer service) business, your posts filled with arrogance and insulting condescension demonstrates that your people skills just plain suck."

Is this an example of: "You could have taken my post in the manner it was intended, viewed it constructively.and taken it to heart."??? When someone calls you a jerk is that a constructive moment in your life?

And as far as me making any problems for you, I think you have done very well on that effort all by yourself.

I am not worried at all about future charter guests opinion of me, or my wife. Our numerous guests have been quite pleased with the quality services they have recieved, in the ample accomodations we provided to them. For instance you may read one couples' glowing comments to that effect on the home page of our web site.

Of course none of them wanted to find faults with a heavy displacement sailboat, or her owners. They enjoyed all the amenities to the point that they paid the extra amount of money to have them.

Name calling is not the only manner to "call em as you see em".... it is the way YOU select to do that. People who have better manners can do that without name calling.

Fair winds.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

As I said, Doug, whatever. This thread has been hijacked enough, thanks to your input. I will now bow out.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

bljones said:


> And yet many many many folks have successfully sailed around the world in boats under 40 feet. many many foklks have successfully lived aboard boats under 40 feet. many folks have built careers around living on boats under 40 feet...
> 
> Why can't you do it doug?
> As I said, don't make your problem my problem. denigrating the choice others make doesn't make your choice stronger.
> It just makes you look... well, like you.


I am not denigrating the choice of a smaller boat. I am pointing out that for a LIVEABOARD vessel, most human beings asking for advice on that, would be more comfortable in a larger boat.

I am not questioning the choice of a smaller vessel. I am not calling the people who have smaller boats any names. I am not your enemy.

But, I will always suggest to a perspective liveaboard to buy as big as you can. Call me what you want, but just perhaps you might exercise some of the supposed quality of inter social skills you claim I lack so much, and not call me names for suggesting the obviously most comfortable manner of living on a boat.

By the way, this thread is not about sailing around the world. The original question was asking for advice on a liveaboard vessel.

Please stay on topic, or go to that thread to proclaim that you would sail around the world in as small a boat as possible....


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

bljones said:


> As I said, Doug, whatever. This thread has been hijacked enough, thanks to your input. I will now bow out.


Well, now that the highjacker has left, if anyone wants more advice on THIS TOPIC, I would be happy to further discuss how to power up a washer and dryer out to sea.....


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## manhattan08 (Mar 2, 2009)

Good thread. If we put our differences aside, it will be much better.

As posted earlier, I believe the h42is one of the best choices when considering aft berths - my wife would agree with me too!


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

DougSabbag said:


> Overall, I should mention that while we were living in Fort Lauderdale, our slip was on Isle of Venice, a concentrated location for sailboats, and we witnessed numerous middle aged to recently retired couples taking possession of their new possession / sailboat.
> 
> On more than a few of these observations / exposures, these people proudly exclaimed their logic in buying a "starter" sailboat to learn on, and then per their plan, they would trade up when ready.
> 
> ...


The real reason those recently retired and middle aged sailors gave up their dreams and sold the boat was because they never spent the time to learn and develop their sailing and seamanship skills together.
It comes as a great shock to many recently retired folks how physically demanding sailing is, not to mention the maintenance, loss of contact with friends, family and business associates. 
More often then not it was the "mans" dream, dragging the wife along.

I've seen the same scenario half way across the world for the past 13 years.

Size has nothing to do with it.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

macswift said:


> I've recently written a page on my website on the risks and rewards of living aboard which includes the issue regarding personal relationships. At the risk of breaking the forum rules here's a link to it:~
> How Living Aboard a Sailboat Worked Out for the Crew of Alacazam
> Moderator ~ Are you happy with this? If not, profuse apologies...


I don't see anything wrong with the link. SailNet rules apply to commercial websites and I don't see your site as overtly commercial.

rgds

Andrew B


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Thread drift is one thing boys and girls but lets not get overly antsy OK and I don't give a fetid dingoes kidney that a big boy did it then ran away.

Happy Happy

Andrew B

ps - the thread was after all about how well do we loving couples get on whilst living aboard. It was not really about waterline envy.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

There is less space, that's true. Less space means less stuff. Less stuff is less stuff to worry about is less stress is less frustration is less anger is less fighting.
Things have't been this good since we were young & broke. The incredible, huge, gargantuan, amazing stress reduction has improved our health a lot and our sex life even more.
That said, less space is less space. It's perfectly acceptable to say (or be told) that one would like to be alone for awhile. I recommend it.
All told, don't worry too much about the bed, if it goes for you like it has for us you'll be spending a lot more time up against each other in bed anyway.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

DougSabbag said:


> ... however, for a liveaboard vessel I honestly feel that size does matter, and shouldn't be kept out of the discussion in order to avoid hurting someones' feelings.


I agree with your statement here, although not with all the details. In fact sailing performance, even in light air, is usually better on bigger boats. That factor is much more an issue of hull design than size. Oh - light air sailing is a skill.

Getting and keeping a boat moving under sail in conditions that drive most to motor takes practice and understanding. It is more difficult than dealing with heavy weather.

Size does have implications. Size means space to live in a fashion that leads to comfort and happiness. If one is living aboard and working, size means higher slip fees. Neither of those two things has anything at all to do with single-handing.

I agree with Doug that given some skills and practice boat size in the 50 foot range is perfectly reasonable for single-handing. I would extend that up to 70 feet or more.

The problem is that slip cost goes up faster than boat size, and availability of big slips can be a problem. That isn't an issue for those actively cruising and anchoring out. It is an issue for cruisers who take slips or moorings and liveaboards with regular jobs.

When I started boat shopping I was looking at boats in the 48 to 53 foot range. It was slip cost and availability that led me to a 40 foot boat.

Some amenities are pretty hard to come by much below 37(ish) feet. I wanted a bed that is easy to get in and out of, and that doesn't require climbing over a partner to get out. I needed a place to work without perching a laptop on my knees and hanging books and papers from the overhead. I needed enough storage so I could keep "stuff" put away well enough to get off the dock and go sailing in a reasonable time. I wanted space to cook and eat well.

One of the best summers of my life was spent on a Catalina 22 with a girl friend. I treasure the memories of that time. I don't want to live like that.



aeventyr60 said:


> The real reason those recently retired and middle aged sailors gave up their dreams and sold the boat was because they never spent the time to learn and develop their sailing and seamanship skills together.


+1. Building skills is an even bigger challenge if a couple enter a relationship with one having significantly more skill and experience than the other.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While a little late to this party, there are a couple of things I would add. For background, we only liveaboard for 4 days per week, about 7 months per year, plus several straight weeks. Our plan is to live aboard for 6 straight months and ashore the other, at some point.

First, if you've never lived aboard, neither of you can know whether you will like it. One of you probably believes they will like it more than the other, but both should take it one step at a time. 

Relationships are no different aboard then ashore. Ups and downs. If you've been together a while, then consider what it takes to live together now and how you will deal with it aboard.

Be sure that both in the relationship have what they want to be comfortable. One may be focused on the ability to make a big passage, the other wants an ice maker and air conditioning. You will need both.

Finally, having a boat is like having the biggest pool and backyard of any other house I know. The pool is pretty easy to get to. When away from the dock, the backyard isn't, unless you have a very easy way to deploy and use your dinghy. One of you will want to be on land at some point and there should be as little barrier to doing so as humanly possible.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

aeventyr60 said:


> The real reason those recently retired and middle aged sailors gave up their dreams and sold the boat was because they never spent the time to learn and develop their sailing and seamanship skills together.
> It comes as a great shock to many recently retired folks how physically demanding sailing is, not to mention the maintenance, loss of contact with friends, family and business associates.
> More often then not it was the "mans" dream, dragging the wife along.
> 
> ...


Well, I think we're both correct. For instance one of those couples I am thinking about were from Alaska, and he had been a tug boat Captain for 30 + years, and she had many years of marine experience too. The Alaskan waters are not a cake walk, but their vessels had been a tad more stable than a 36 foot sloop was, and here is where you are correct, in the hands of a new sailor. Nevertheless, when we took them out in our 50 foot GulfStar, they were quite at ease.

So, BOTH size and skills matter. And without the skills, the size will make up for a lot of that and give you a smoother ride as you learn.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

sww914 said:


> There is less space, that's true. Less space means less stuff. Less stuff is less stuff to worry about is less stress is less frustration is less anger is less fighting.
> Things have't been this good since we were young & broke. The incredible, huge, gargantuan, amazing stress reduction has improved our health a lot and our sex life even more.
> That said, less space is less space. It's perfectly acceptable to say (or be told) that one would like to be alone for awhile. I recommend it.
> All told, don't worry too much about the bed, if it goes for you like it has for us you'll be spending a lot more time up against each other in bed anyway.


And I'll raise a toast to that.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

"I am not denigrating the choice of a smaller boat. I am pointing out that for a LIVEABOARD vessel, most human beings asking for advice on that, would be more comfortable in a larger boat." (from Doug's post)

Doug, I think no one would question the validity of this statement. You will most certainly be more comfortable living on a bigger boat. If the OP is only going to live aboard at a dock, then perhaps your advice is on the mark. However, I don't agree that owning a big boat is the same as owning a small boat (just "bigger and safer" as you put it). A big boat is going to cost more to buy, maintain and more importantly, consume more of your time to keep in good working condition. Inevitably, a bigger boat will have more (and more complex) "systems". I suppose if you are living at the dock and don't have to work nine-to-five, then hanging out on the boat cleaning, fixing, tinkering, adjusting, repairing, replacing, varnishing, buffing etc. etc. is OK. However if the OP plans on living aboard and _cruising _then there are plenty of reasons to choose a smaller, simpler boat: the main one being that they will have more time to enjoy the places they visit because they will be free of much of the time-consuming boat maintenance of a larger vessel. There is no "right way". Some people simply need the space and extra comfort ("mod cons" as the Americans like to say) of a bigger boat and are prepared to put in the money, energy and time to keep one. Others find this too big a sacrifice. The OP has to see where he sits on the spectrum. I am reminded of a Brazilian couple I know that did a circumnavigation on a simple but comfortable 29 footer who were asked if there were any drawbacks to going in such a small boat. They replied without hesitation that they couldn't think of a single drawback and then went on to describe their fellow cruisers met along the way spending their days in beautiful anchorages with their heads in the bilges working on some system or another that was simply "essential" to their quality of life aboard (none of which existed on the 29 footer by the way). I wonder who had more fun exploring new places? There is a good SSCA survey on what breaks most on boats and it isn't surprising to see that most of these things are found only on bigger boats: watermaker, fridge/freezer, genset, air conditioning, pressure water, complex heads, etc. Anyhow, my point is that one has to weigh both sides of the equation carefully and know the implications of living/cruising on a large or small boat before making the decision.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

copacabana said:


> "I am not denigrating the choice of a smaller boat. I am pointing out that for a LIVEABOARD vessel, most human beings asking for advice on that, would be more comfortable in a larger boat." (from Doug's post)
> 
> Doug, I think no one would question the validity of this statement. You will most certainly be more comfortable living on a bigger boat. If the OP is only going to live aboard at a dock, then perhaps your advice is on the mark. However, I don't agree that owning a big boat is the same as owning a small boat (just "bigger and safer" as you put it). A big boat is going to cost more to buy, maintain and more importantly, consume more of your time to keep in good working condition. Inevitably, a bigger boat will have more (and more complex) "systems". I suppose if you are living at the dock and don't have to work nine-to-five, then hanging out on the boat cleaning, fixing, tinkering, adjusting, repairing, replacing, varnishing, buffing etc. etc. is OK. However if the OP plans on living aboard and _cruising _then there are plenty of reasons to choose a smaller, simpler boat: the main one being that they will have more time to enjoy the places they visit because they will be free of much of the time-consuming boat maintenance of a larger vessel. There is no "right way". Some people simply need the space and extra comfort ("mod cons" as the Americans like to say) of a bigger boat and are prepared to put in the money, energy and time to keep one. Others find this too big a sacrifice. The OP has to see where he sits on the spectrum. I am reminded of a Brazilian couple I know that did a circumnavigation on a simple but comfortable 29 footer who were asked if there were any drawbacks to going in such a small boat. They replied without hesitation that they couldn't think of a single drawback and then went on to describe their fellow cruisers met along the way spending their days in beautiful anchorages with their heads in the bilges working on some system or another that was simply "essential" to their quality of life aboard (none of which existed on the 29 footer by the way). I wonder who had more fun exploring new places? There is a good SSCA survey on what breaks most on boats and it isn't surprising to see that most of these things are found only on bigger boats: watermaker, fridge/freezer, genset, air conditioning, pressure water, complex heads, etc. Anyhow, my point is that one has to weigh both sides of the equation carefully and know the implications of living/cruising on a large or small boat before making the decision.


Not to beat a horse to death, but, most people don't sail around the world. Most are at the dock the majority of the time, with occasional bursts of cruising.

I am sure someone will respond that they are offshore 50% (or more!) of their typical week, but that person is a very small sliver of the total population of liveaboards.

And I could never think to argue that if you don't have various systems / equipment, then obviously you won't ever have any maintenance issues for those non-existant items.

So, you are absolutely correct, it is up to the "sailors" how much they want to have these amenities.

A long long time ago I kived in hallways, or the back seat of a car.... now I really like a larger deck with storage lockers on-deck, a windlass, a water maker, a stall shower, a washer & dryer, and even a large TV. We really like the seperate dinette!

But, without any argument each to their own wishes be true...


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

And are we ever getting off topic! I just glanced at the title again and was reminded that the OP wants to know what will be better for his marriage. I think you might be right about the big boat after all Doug!  (One needs a place to slam a door and be alone sometimes)


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> So, you are absolutely correct, it is up to the "sailors" how much they want to have these amenities.
> 
> ....
> But, without any argument each to their own wishes be true...


Andif this is where you had started from, doug, instead of where you ended, you would have no argument from me.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

copacabana said:


> And are we ever getting off topic! I just glanced at the title again and was reminded that the OP wants to know what will be better for his marriage. I think you might be right about the big boat after all Doug!  (One needs a place to slam a door and be alone sometimes)


OK, for my marriage while living onboard a vessel, we are much happier than the couple who were slipped next to us last winter in a 40 footer who didn't have running water. I saw the woman, in her robe on cold winter mornings having to fill a plastic gallon container with water, outside, with her cold red hands pulling the nearly frozen wet line from the ocean to get the hose.

They had a composting toilet too. Very little maintenace to that!

They only got 110 electricty last year too!

And you know what? She filed for divorce this spring. Her name is Lauren, and she had enough of the Spartan life.

I'll just bet that the next sailor who might have an interest in her better have running water, a shower, a functional stove, (theirs only occasionally worked), and as many amenities as possible. She had really enjoyed coming aboard the Triumph, the winter before. Their TV was a very small screen one, and their interior was dark and depressing.... ours was light and roomy, and boy did she enjoy the "amenities".

So, to this topic, I witnessed a good loving marriage deteriorate into the divorce court specifically due to a lack of amenities, i.e., lack of basic human comfort.

Perhaps YOUR wife likes to use an out-house in the winter, and doesn't need a hot shower, etc., etc., but most American women I have known, including my wife, (and Lauren, amongst many others), really appreciate the ability to use a comfortable bathroom, with a well lit mirror, and a hot shower which is INSTALLED so that you don't have to hold a shower head with one hand and wash with the other.....

When I first moved aboard, I was dating numerous women; and though they all enjoyed the cruising weekend, almost all asked where my house was for the M - F side of life.

Evelyn, as much of a sailor as she is, with her own 6 pack Captains' License, was quite distraught about having to get rid of some of her 50 + pairs of shoes.

So, again I say, buy as big as you can, for your comfort, for your marriage.
Or else, keep looking over your shoulder, because you might be served when you least expect it, as Tim was by Lauren.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

bljones said:


> Andif this is where you had started from, doug, instead of where you ended, you would have no argument from me.


Your only real "argument" is with human nature. Give people a blank check and see if they still buy a new Corrolla or a new Mercedes.

People know and appreciate the amenities we humans have come to enjoy.

For your marriage while living onboard a vessel, you would be a wiser man to provide the best you can, then do as Tim did and end up in divorce court.

Talk to Lauren, not me if you really want to try to argue this reality.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Afterthought.... I am reading a bunch of MENs' attitudes here, and what we're missing is some thoughts from a woman. 

If you want to honestly discuss what to do for a happy marriage living onboard, we need a womans' point of view too.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Doug, in all fairness, I think you've made a few wrong assumptions about me, my wife and my boat. We have a very comfortable boat with everything my wife wants aboard. We don't live aboard, but we spend quite a bit of time living aboard and cruising (with the 4 of us). My wife doesn't use an outhouse and we have no winter to speak of here. Let's take it down a notch and just go back to where we were all in agreement that everyone has their own set of needs aboard. I just wanted to offer an alternative view concerning putting all the "comforts of home" on your boat-- namely that doing so requires a lot of time, money, skill and effort to keep in running order and this should be kept in mind before just blindly loading all kinds of crap on the boat. Some people are happier with the time on their hands to do other things. I know a bunch of people who seem to live to work on their boat. It's all they talk about and it consumes all their time. Personally, I use my boat as a magic carpet to get to interesting places where I can meet new people, go exploring, sample local food etc. For the record, my wife is a good sport and her only needs on board are a big, comfortable bed, a large head with vanity, a hot (solar) shower on deck, storage to keep everything out of sight and dry, comfortable places to sit in the cabin and cockpit. My boat has all this and much more in 35 feet. Smaller doesn't have to mean uncomfortable Doug. 

Anyhow, I think this argument isn't going anywhere so let's just agree that people are different and have their own needs. I wish you and your wife all the best on your new boat. Keep us up to date on your new adventures.

Cheers!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

"We don't live aboard...." 

And that makes all the difference in the world. 

My wife and I do live aboard a boat. 24 X 7 X 365 X ? 

And when you are limited to no other "home" then we'll see how much, and for how long, you will put up with the "roughing it" lifestyle which is quaint and fun for a weekend, or even a week long vacation cruise.

And we live in New England. Where heat is a life or death issue at least 6 months of the year. Then, during the winter, condensation will turn into mold; so you have to address that.

There is a huge difference between living aboard, and having a boat as a recreational vehicle.

This thread asked about the implications of living aboard for a marriage, i.e., a couple.

And not to be mean, but, I really don't think someone who has a land based home can debate the value and importance of the "amenities" with someone who truly lives aboard a boat.

If you were 100% living aboard a boat then you would probably likewise understand the difference therein. And then you would appreciate that it is worth doing what you can to earn the equipment and the bigger vessel, to be able to remain a happy couple onboard.

However, in the bigger picture of life, I will likewise agree to "just agree that 
people are different and have their own needs. "

Fair winds!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

For the sake of this threads' question, I really do think we NEED to hear from a woman, who lives aboard a boat to add the female side of the issues for our original poster to gleen their answer(s) from.

Men will have their "needs" met by a lot less than most women out there. We might be quite happy with a boat that heads up into the wind very well, and tracks smoothly.
One that handles a following sea well, and one that even backs up well! WOW, isn't that a wonderful thing, huh?

We are happy with a solid rigg, good sails, a motor we can depend on, and a big plus is a windlass that also functions well and dependably. Throw in an auto helm, and aren't we in heaven!? 

But, the word "couple" includes a woman. And though she will appreciate it when her man says this boat heads up into the wind very well, is that really going to keep her happy onboard??

REALLY?

And any boat with a woman onboard is a better boat with a HAPPY woman than a not so happy woman. Nobody will argue that, right men?

So, let's put the hairy chested mind set aside and open this up to the other 50% of this equation.

And I suspect that they won't be placing heading up into the wind, quite as high on the priorities list as the standard suite of comfortable amenities that we all know they love.

Not what they will put up with out of their undying love for us, but what do THEY want?

Mrs. Sailor, are you out there? Please share your requirements for living aboard a boat with this group of men. 

We will all be better for it. And perhaps less likely to end up like Tim.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> Afterthought.... I am reading a bunch of MENs' attitudes here, and what we're missing is some thoughts from a woman.
> 
> If you want to honestly discuss what to do for a happy marriage living onboard, we need a womans' point of view too.


Scroll back to post #21 for that "woman's point of view." If the marriage was solid on land, if you can talk respectfully about differences and work toward a solution without blaming each other or disrespecting each other's priorities -- then your marriage will be just fine in a small boat. If you had problems on land, they're only gonna get worse in tight confines.

But you know what? There is no _one _"woman's point of view." There's just the point of view of the one woman in your life -- you know, when you were dating you probably told your friends she was the "one in a million, totally unique" ... now you think a bunch of strangers on the internet who've never met her, or you, can tell you what her point of view might be? Really?

I would not advise someone buying a house to buy the biggest house they could afford. I would advise them to figure out what was really important to them, and make sure they bought a house that included those things (within the constraints of their income). The same is true of the advice I would give anyone who asked me about a boat to live aboard. (And after 10 years of not owning a house on land, I feel qualified to weigh in here) Our 33-footer has heat, hot water, air conditioning, fridge and freezer, standing headroom everywhere and a fabulous U-shaped galley with plenty of storage. With 4' 6" draft, we can get into anchorages that larger boats can't, and that was important to us. In a pinch, we can move this boat around with the power of our own muscles, and tow her with our dinghy. With a 49' stick, we fit under bridges on the ICW and elsewhere. She's paid for, dockage is cheap when we want it, and she's fun to sail. Those were the things that mattered to us. We bought the smallest boat that had all of them. Then with the money we had left over we could afford to quit our jobs (forever!!!) and go cruising sooner.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Doug, you were posting while I was composing, so let me say this: the #1 thing that was important to THIS woman was simply this: I never ever again wanted to start my day by saying goodbye to Dan and heading off to our (separate) jobs.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Preach it, sister.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Okay, I've never met "Tim" or "Lauren." I've also never met a person of good character (of EITHER sex) who would split from a spouse/S.O. because their everyday living conditions lacked luxury. OTOH, I've met several who split because the partner essentially blew off what they said was important, are you sure that's not what's going on here? Not that they had a composting toilet or insufficient hot water, but that the marriage was fundamentally asymmetrical, his priorities were addressed and hers were scoffed at?


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

This was the original post which started this thread:

"I'm looking to live aboard in a few years with my wife. We will be empty nesters and would love to hear from other couples that are in the process of moving to the lifestyle or have been living aboard. How has the stress of the change and limited space affected your relationship? What stories do you have you wouldn't mind sharing with us. My wife and I have a very strong relationship and we complement each other very well. Hopefully living in such close quarters all the time won't change that. One more thing, has anyone seen a sailboat not 70 feet or more that has a Queen/King size berth one thing that would make the transition easier for my wife, I tend to be a bed hog maybe because I'm 6'2 and not small."

Then I suppose post #21: "If the marriage was solid on land, if you can talk respectfully about differences and work toward a solution without blaming each other or disrespecting each other's priorities -- then your marriage will be just fine in a small boat. If you had problems on land, they're only gonna get worse in tight confines."

.... answers this posters' question: "How has the stress of the change and limited space affected your relationship?"

Answering with: "I never ever again wanted to start my day by saying goodbye to Dan and heading off to our (separate) jobs."

.... is a more _romantic value _to ponder...

What about his question: "...has anyone seen a sailboat not 70 feet or more that has a Queen/King size berth..."?

I could answer that with a CT 56, or a GulfStar Sailmaster. Perhaps others have some more vessels which come to mind?

And to his point of: "...that would make the transition easier for my wife..." I would return to my answer that size does matter.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

wingNwing said:


> Okay, I've never met "Tim" or "Lauren." I've also never met a person of good character (of EITHER sex) who would split from a spouse/S.O. because their everyday living conditions lacked luxury. OTOH, I've met several who split because the partner essentially blew off what they said was important, are you sure that's not what's going on here? Not that they had a composting toilet or insufficient hot water, but that the marriage was fundamentally asymmetrical, his priorities were addressed and hers were scoffed at?


Yes, he didn't sufficiently respect her to address her needs.

And her needs were for the simple, basic comforts which most humans expect. She was not having fun camping out anymore.

So, yes, their split was over a basic lack of equal respect, but that was exasperated, (brought to bear), by their spartan lifestyle.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Ayup, we need king-size sheets for the v-berth on our 33. 'Cept, they're a little too short to cover the bunk completely. 

So it's more about what the boat's designer prioritized, than size per se.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Hailing: Daytona 49!

So, have we provided anything of value to answer your question(s)?

I'm still dying to describe how to power a Splendide washer & dryer while out to sea.....  (solar panels, 2 banks of batteries, one for charging while using the other, and a pure sine inverter)


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Doug circled us back to the OP, a fundamentally good thing.



Dayton49 said:


> How has the stress of the change and limited space affected your relationship?


I moved aboard in 2006 when I was single. I did the best I could to "buy forward" toward a future relationship. Tough when you don't know what the priorities of someone you haven't met yet might be.

I've had three women in my life since then (the current one for five years) and can say I did okay as far as the boat is concerned. Boat stuff those ladies liked included a relatively fast boat, ability to entertain, not having to climb over one another to get in and out of bed, the electric toilet (a big winner by the way), and a "two-butt" galley.

All that is just stuff. More important is listening to each other, paying attention to one another and disparate needs, and giving each other space to be ourselves.



Dayton49 said:


> has anyone seen a sailboat not 70 feet or more that has a Queen/King size berth one thing that would make the transition easier for my wife, I tend to be a bed hog maybe because I'm 6'2 and not small.


Queen and King vocabulary don't translate well to boats. My aft berth is called a centerline queen and has been plenty roomy enough for me, but it doesn't measure out to a US standard queen sized bed. It's wider (mostly, narrows at the foot) and shorter. Be suspect of such characterizations. When you find a boat you are serious about I'd cut some craft paper to the size of the bunk and see if it works for you. I love my master berth but suspect you might not unless you sleep curled up. The difference between 5'10" and 6'2" could be a big deal.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

DougSabbag said:


> "We don't live aboard...."
> 
> And that makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> ...


There you go again making assumptions about what everyone wants. When I said I don't live aboard it means I have a house as well. When I'm aboard, I'm living aboard. I don't run to the house to heat up soup or use the blender. Not owning a house won't change the reality of living on my boat. Try to understand... We made a conscious decision to keep our boat smaller and simpler so we wouldn't be bogged down with boat chores. We wanted more freedom. We could have bought a 60 footer but we didn't want to. Maybe the OP needs to know a bit more about what is implied by buying a 60 footer with a washer/dryer, genset, etc. etc. You asked for a woman's view and I told you my wife's view: she doesn't want a complex boat. We have everything we need to live in total comfort, including a composting toilet! (and my wife asked for it!). Doug, let's chill out and recognize there is more than one way to skin a cat here. Comments like "it's human nature to want more" is just wrong.


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## meljabro3 (Aug 6, 2012)

My wife and I are liveaboards. We've bought our boat Jan 2012 and we love it. We prepared for the lifestyle by paring down to basic needs and wants and moved into a studio apartment for a few years before moving onto a boat. The hardest things for us to cope with are organization in this space(a 30' Hurley sailboat) and alone time. Because living aboard is so much more inexpensive we don't have to work full time jobs about 2-4days a week for each of us. We schedule opposite work days a during the week so we can each enjoy the boat and it's space alone. I think the real challenge will be when we start cruising next year.


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## ellenwhite2 (May 27, 2008)

*another woman's perpective*

This is for the original poster (? OP in Sailnet lingo?)

First! My qualifications: I am female. AND I have lived aboard a 37' sailboat for just over a year. AND, most importantly, neither my husband nor I is seeking council of a divorce attorney.

My 2 cents worth: Take the sailing lessons you mentioned in an earlier post. Do it together and decide together if this is something you BOTH want to persue. If you don't both love it, explore other options. Sail as often as possible in as many different boats as possible. Then, when you are ready to buy, buy the SMALLEST boat, that has ALL the features you deem necessary and desirable. This is absolutely one instance where smaller is better! Trust me on this! I'm by no means expert, but have owned a few boats. In my opinion, anything bigger than 50', you may as well take a cruise ship. And leave the washing machine at home.....just my opinion!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

My wife seriously thinks our boat is too big. Specifically, she hates dealing with the fenders. Cracks me up. I know she really loves the boat. The 12" fenders are a pain.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> Yes, he didn't sufficiently respect her to address her needs.
> 
> And her needs were for the simple, basic comforts which most humans expect. She was not having fun camping out anymore.
> 
> So, yes, their split was over a basic lack of equal respect, but that was exasperated, (brought to bear), by their spartan lifestyle.


I think the word you're looking for is exacerbated (made worse, or more urgent) ... the point being, that nothing happened that would not have happened anyway.

Imagine if he - in a moment of chivalry - had gone out and gotten the freezing cold water in the morning, instead of she. What would have happened then? Would she have seen respect from him, and had the strength of character to live with him through the tough times? Or was it truly about the slippery slope, and no amount of creature comforts would have been enough, until she was in a palace or megayacht?


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> This was the original post which started this thread:
> 
> Answering with: "I never ever again wanted to start my day by saying goodbye to Dan and heading off to our (separate) jobs."
> 
> .... is a more _romantic value _to ponder...


This was intended to be a bit allegorical. Everyone who works - everyone - ultimately is trading their days for dollars. We chose to trade fewer days for fewer dollars, and retire and go cruising sooner. I've already addressed the other priorities we had for our boat.


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

The 1st mate and I meet on the water and from that day more then 10 yrs ago havent spent more the one day apart so living aboard a 32' boat hasn't changed the way we feel about each other. Yes there are days its a wonder that one of us isn't thrown over board but it has nothing to do with the close living conditions. Be fore her i've never been very open with anyone, so now I fell like this is the best time in my life and wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. We don't even want a bigger boat , we have grown to like being able just to reach out and beable to touch each other . Hope you find the same


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

S/VAuspicious said: "Boat stuff those ladies liked included a relatively fast boat, ability to entertain, not having to climb over one another to get in and out of bed, the electric toilet (a big winner by the way), and a "two-butt" galley."

Which certaintly speaks to the "list" of things which might be considered as conducive to the liveaboard life of a couple!

As far as not having to climb over one another, that also expands to the boat in general, beyond the beds.... We like to "entertain", and having a larger boat allows that socialization to occur more comfortably too. Just a thought..... 

And God yes, the women who have been onboard my boat(s), have surely appreciated pushing a button to flush, as opposed to working a pumping handle, squishing things, etc... :-( Perhaps TMI, for some of you, but nevertheless a reality of living onboard a boat.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Copacobana said: "Comments like "it's human nature to want more" is just wrong."

REally? Check with Mr. Statistics and Mr. demographics. I think in our capitalistic society you will find that the majority of people want "more", not less. 

Anyone who buys a lottery ticket is proof of that; at the very least.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

meljabro3 said:


> My wife and I are liveaboards. We've bought our boat Jan 2012 and we love it. We prepared for the lifestyle by paring down to basic needs and wants and moved into a studio apartment for a few years before moving onto a boat. The hardest things for us to cope with are organization in this space(a 30' Hurley sailboat) and alone time. Because living aboard is so much more inexpensive we don't have to work full time jobs about 2-4days a week for each of us. We schedule opposite work days a during the week so we can each enjoy the boat and it's space alone. I think the real challenge will be when we start cruising next year.


OK... so, would your next boat be a larger one, if you could afford it without changing your present level of work?

There is a fairly well subscribed to concept that when people trade their boat in, they are usually asking for a larger boat, not a smaller one.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

I'm not sure why Doug so desperately needs to prove his point about big boats being "better." Maybe they are for him; obviously that is not the case for everyone who has posted on this thread. This isn't really a conversation anymore.


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## DavidB.UK (Sep 11, 2011)

Doug, for the sake of the thread and the helpfulness to the OP, please dial down your ego.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

wingNwing said:


> I think the word you're looking for is exacerbated (made worse, or more urgent) ... the point being, that nothing happened that would not have happened anyway.
> 
> Imagine if he - in a moment of chivalry - had gone out and gotten the freezing cold water in the morning, instead of she. What would have happened then? Would she have seen respect from him, and had the strength of character to live with him through the tough times? Or was it truly about the slippery slope, and no amount of creature comforts would have been enough, until she was in a palace or megayacht?


She had been "pushing" for some efforts to be aimed at comforts instead of his projects of new chainplates, (just extreme examples there), and he basically disregarded her.

So, it wasn't a lack of comforts which inspired the break up, it was a lack of basic respect, (as you so eloquently stated).

However, the lack of comforts WAS the straw that broke the camels' back.
If he had listened to her, he would have done a better job of balancing their resources to address BOTH the sailing rigg, AND running water, etc.

He didn't see the need for the "fluff" of amenities. She sure did.
Now he is alone.

No, she didn't want a megayacht. But, circling back to my "advisements", to the general public interested in the liveaboard life, if you buy a comfortable boat, you will be starting from a good place, rather than wanting to trade up ASAP.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

Doug, you know why I bought a 40 footer and not a 60 footer? Because I didn't have enough %$^&ing MONEY!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

wingNwing said:


> This was intended to be a bit allegorical. Everyone who works - everyone - ultimately is trading their days for dollars. We chose to trade fewer days for fewer dollars, and retire and go cruising sooner. I've already addressed the other priorities we had for our boat.


And I applaud that decision / goal with a standing ovation!

Likewise, that is our goal of switching from our computer consultant careers, to chartering our vessel, together, providing those services to couples onboard.

And within that business plan, bigger is better.....

The 50' GulfStar could only attract so many customers, and they were barely OK with her. The CT 56 will attract more, and we should be able to charge slightly more per week.

We are not wealthy, so we will have to replace our incomes somehow; and chartering is the melding of these two worlds which works, for us.

Doing week long charters, of 1 or 2 couples, at $6K or $7500 for 2 couples; if we only do 6 charters a year, we are fine with that. Then we don't have to continually drain the bank accounts.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

DavidB.UK said:


> Doug, for the sake of the thread and the helpfulness to the OP, please dial down your ego.


I'm just "talking" here, with you folks! I am learning from these comments too!

Can't we talk without it being taken so negatively?


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

DougSabbag said:


> Copacobana said: "Comments like "it's human nature to want more" is just wrong."
> 
> REally? Check with Mr. Statistics and Mr. demographics. I think in our capitalistic society you will find that the majority of people want "more", not less.
> 
> Anyone who buys a lottery ticket is proof of that; at the very least.


No Doug, I think you'll find that people who are selling their houses and accumulated junk to live/cruise on a boat are looking for "less", not "more". They don't want to take their home-based life with them. On the contrary, they want to get away from the cycle of work-earn-buy-store in closet- work-earn-buy etc... It's a terrible treadmill to be on. Doug, I think you'll find there are a lot of people who are opting to live a simpler, less stressful way, either on land or on the water. I myself am just finishing a new house that is 40% smaller than my last house and, to be perfectly honest, I still think it's too big! (I let my wife and kids add whatever they felt was necessary to the new house and it kept growing).

If you are going to advocate the big boat with all the "amenities" (as you say), then perhaps you could also elaborate on the amount of maintenance, work, time, money, stress and effort that goes into running this kind of boat. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your choice, but let's be realistic when we tell a person new to sailing that they should buy the biggest boat they can afford. There is a pretty steep learning curve with a tricked out 50-something footer, especially bought used with all the systems on their way to breaking down. How many hours a week do you put into your boat (and be honest Doug!!)?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> I'm just "talking" here, with you folks! I am learning from these comments too!
> 
> Can't we talk without it being taken so negatively?


Of course WE can. The question is, can you?
Doug, you seem to be a smart guy- sooner or later you should realize that if a number of people are all telling you the same thing, the problem isn't them.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

sww914 said:


> Doug, you know why I bought a 40 footer and not a 60 footer? Because I didn't have enough %$^&ing MONEY!


There you go! And my friend, that is why my first boat was a 24 footer, I got for $5K. Just last fall I bought a Carver 28 for $7500.

I am not some wealthy elitist with a cigar and a golf bag....

I applaud your honesty. And I am there too.

So, that is why I suggested to the "general" public looking to move from land to a boat that they buy as big as they can *afford*.

That might well be a 28, 32, 36, 38, 40, or whatever boat, but the vast majority of the boat ownership path I have seen is always toward bigger, not smaller. And to live aboard her, (without ANY land based home to retreat to), we sure have appreciated every single inch of more space we can get.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

bljones said:


> Of course WE can. The question is, can you?
> Doug, you seem to be a smart guy- sooner or later you should realize that if a number of people are all telling you the same thing, the problem isn't them.


What "problem"?? As I said, we're just talking here! If I am not saying what you want me to say, is that a problem?

We can have different opinions on something without there being a problem; and, as the discussion unfolds, one of us can quite possibly see what the other one is saying and expand their opinion, or even change it.

I AM reading where a lot of people are saying they are as happy as two peas in a pod in 30 something footers. Cool!

And I sure would hope and support that love could superscede size of vessel.

But, assuming you are madly in love, (and can therefore be happy in a row boat), if you were buying a boat to liveaboard, and had a blank check, or had just won a lottery, (a BIG lottery), what size boat would you REALLY buy?


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

DougSabbag said:


> I'm just "talking" here, with you folks! I am learning from these comments too!
> 
> Can't we talk without it being taken so negatively?


No one is taking it negatively (I think), least of all me. I've always enjoyed your contributions here on Sailnet and I'm glad you're back. I think this is a great dialogue showing two sides to a pretty complicated decision for a person contemplating their first boat. It is especially difficult for a first-time buyer because he/she doesn't really have a grasp on what is implied by their choices. People with your experience know exactly what they're getting into. I'm sure when you bought your new boat you knew what kind of commitment was involved to keep it in running order and you were comfortable with the tradeoffs (work for comfort).I'm a lazy bugger and prefer to keep things simple to work less.


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## DavidB.UK (Sep 11, 2011)

DougSabbag said:


> I'm just "talking" here, with you folks! I am learning from these comments too!
> 
> Can't we talk without it being taken so negatively?


Doug, I am one of the most positive, upbeat and optimistic people you will ever meet.

But rather than simply offering an opinion, you seem to have hijacked this thread (which I have followed from the start) to promote your own ideals regardless of what anybody else seems to think.

Thats why I stand by my comment to dial down your ego.
every other comment for the last few pages is you belittling somebody else point of view or defending criticism you are getting from multiple contributors.

People have different need, desires and priorities. Just because you have one particular point of view does not mean than others are wrong.

Lets get back to the OP and try to offer constructive advice.
This does not mean that one way is better than another.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> But, assuming you are madly in love, (and can therefore be happy in a row boat), if you were buying a boat to liveaboard, and had a blank check, or had just won a lottery, (a BIG lottery), what size boat would you REALLY buy?


i still wouldn't buy a boat bigger than 40 feet... I'd just buy more of them.
Part of the attraction of a small space, is the fact that it is a small space- smaller simpler systems, smaller, easier to manage sails, jobs like bottom painting and hull polishing take less than half as much time on a sub-40' boat as the do on a 56' boat, and the less time spent maintaining, the more time spent sailing.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

copacabana said:


> No Doug, I think you'll find that people who are selling their houses and accumulated junk to live/cruise on a boat are looking for "less", not "more". They don't want to take their home-based life with them. On the contrary, they want to get away from the cycle of work-earn-buy-store in closet- work-earn-buy etc... It's a terrible treadmill to be on. Doug, I think you'll find there are a lot of people who are opting to live a simpler, less stressful way, either on land or on the water. I myself am just finishing a new house that is 40% smaller than my last house and, to be perfectly honest, I still think it's too big! (I let my wife and kids add whatever they felt was necessary to the new house and it kept growing).
> 
> If you are going to advocate the big boat with all the "amenities" (as you say), then perhaps you could also elaborate on the amount of maintenance, work, time, money, stress and effort that goes into running this kind of boat. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your choice, but let's be realistic when we tell a person new to sailing that they should buy the biggest boat they can afford. There is a pretty steep learning curve with a tricked out 50-something footer, especially bought used with all the systems on their way to breaking down. How many hours a week do you put into your boat (and be honest Doug!!)?


I can well respect the minimalistic lifestyle. But, as you have experienced with your family, people have varying degrees of where their bottom line can be. Yours is apparently lower than your total family could go.

And I can't argue that boats sure do eat up all of my "extra time".

FYI, right after we lost our boat last summer, the most depressing point was that I had nothing to do. No more "list". No more tools. Nothing to fix, improve, varnish.... nothing.

So, along with boat ownership, of any size, you have to be OK with, if not actually enjoy, the boat maintenance projects.

On the boat we just bought, I am actually enjoying making new lists, researching where to get new water cooled FrigoBoat refrigeration systems, new door handles, new lights, how to convert them, etc., etc., etc.

We really like to do these things. We must be very sick people. 

The prior owner applied cetol on the teak deck! And now it has that Cetol orange look. Plus, because it is so dark, it is hot as a frying pan to walk on!

I am looking forward to getting that off. I like to be covered in saw dust!

I really am a sick puppy, huh...

But, my wife and I are truly like kids at the Christmas tree with all the space, the expansive floor in the main salon, the seperate dinette! The aft cabin, etc., so either we are sickos, or gee, perhaps people like these things.

The people who have come aboard seem to like this boat a lot more than the last (smaller) one. My 6' 2" friend hasn't hit his head like he did going through the galley toward the aft cabin on the GulfStar.

So, yes, I am a sick person and enjoy doing maintenance on my boat. But, whether it has been a 24 footer, a 28 footer, (as we had all this past fall / winter / spring), or a 56 footer, the maintenace seems to never end anyway.

So, I might as well change the oil of a 135 hp engine than an 85 hp one.
It is basically the same amount of time, and my hands got the same results all over them.

When a toilet needs "attention" in a 28 footer, it isn't much easier to deal with than on a 100 footer. Each of these systems exists, for the most part, in amongst all the boats, of all the lengths I have owned.

But, at the end of the day, when I can now lay down in a bigger bed, with 4 large port lights behind me, with 2 leather couches on either side, etc., this IS better.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

DavidB.UK said:


> Doug, I am one of the most positive, upbeat and optimistic people you will ever meet.
> 
> But rather than simply offering an opinion, you seem to have hijacked this thread (which I have followed from the start) to promote your own ideals regardless of what anybody else seems to think.
> 
> ...


I am sorry that you are mistakenly taking my conversation as belittling.

As I was growing up, our family would sit around the kitchen table and debate / discuss / talk about things for hours. This was not in conflict with loving each other to the core.

Sharing our different ways of looking at things, sharing our different experiences and our different translations of those experiences expands our minds. It does not shrink it.

Please don't take that as belittling.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

copacabana said:


> No one is taking it negatively (I think), least of all me. I've always enjoyed your contributions here on Sailnet and I'm glad you're back. I think this is a great dialogue showing two sides to a pretty complicated decision for a person contemplating their first boat. It is especially difficult for a first-time buyer because he/she doesn't really have a grasp on what is implied by their choices. People with your experience know exactly what they're getting into. I'm sure when you bought your new boat you knew what kind of commitment was involved to keep it in running order and you were comfortable with the tradeoffs (work for comfort).I'm a lazy bugger and prefer to keep things simple to work less.
> 
> Doug,


There you go! This is healthy! You might well not agree, but we can talk!

And I am not belittling you, and you are not calling me names! Hell we can even smoke a bone, or drink a beer, whatever floats your boat... while we discuss whatever we are discussing.

You know, people seem to take discussions as conflcit, and shy away from it, more and more these days.

And that is the least healthy reaction of all.

I do have to do some work, (computer programming), so I'll be talking later...

Fair winds folks! Have a great day!


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

DougSabbag said:


> I can well respect the minimalistic lifestyle. But, as you have experienced with your family, people have varying degrees of where their bottom line can be. Yours is apparently lower than your total family could go.
> 
> And I can't argue that boats sure do eat up all of my "extra time".
> 
> ...


Actually, we're all pretty much in sync when it comes to home comforts. It's just that everyone wanted an extra room or space for different tasks. I'm a writer, among other things, and wanted an office. The kids wanted a TV room (go figure!), the wife an office as well. We all wanted a big outdoor area for BBQs. Even so we have kept the new house to 250 square meters, which is not exactly a small "minimalist" house, but quite a bit smaller than the last one.

Doug, you're a "type A" personality, what with the "to-do" lists and getting bored when you have no boat projects to work on. The big boat is a good fit for you. BTW, when you get through your lists, please come and visit me so I can put you to work here! 

Still, I can't agree that the maintenance on a 28 footer is the same as your boat. Sure, both have a head and engine, as you mention, but that's about where the comparison ends. You don't believe that scraping the bottom of a 28ft boat is the same as your 56ft boat, do you? What about all the wiring, plumbing, systems, genset, watermaker, washer/dryer, air conditioning, teak etc. that you have that isn't there on a smaller boat? It all breaks down sooner or later. It's a full-time job to keep in perfect running order.

A final comment. The large boats I've been on are not so different in terms of "usable" space, compared to my 35 footer. I have a big, permanent double berth, like you. My U-shaped dinette is 2 meters long, like yours (normally they are the length of a berth) and a sofa on the other side of the cabin. I have a galley with ample counterspace, fridge, sink etc, though probably a bit smaller than yours. My head is large and comfortable. We have hot showers, like you. My dining table seats 6 people comfortably and 9 with the leaf extention. My cockpit is big and has high back rests and has a table for 6 to eat at. I have 6'6" headroom, like on your boat. The biggest difference, I find, is usually in the number of cabins and heads. You mention you have 3 double cabins. I look at bigger boats and ask myself, "what am I going to gain by moving up?" The answer is more cabins and heads (and work, expenses, frustration etc., but you already know my views on that .


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

On the OP's question of relationships and the unintended consequence of debating the size of the boat, my wife and I have discussed how big a boat we would want, if money were no object. 

For some background, there is a mega sailing yacht that I've seen for years in Nantucket, called TIMONEER. She is a 147 ft custom built yacht that is routinely raced in mega yacht races and wins often! Google her up. She is built for speed on the outside and as luxurious as a 5 start hotel inside. Coincidentally, I have learned that i have only one degree of separation from the owner, but haven't pursued it. I think I would giggle like a school kid if they invited me aboard......

My wife and I discussed whether we would buy her if we had all the money to afford to buy and own her. We thought not. To run her absolutely requires a crew and it isn't about the money in this fictitious example. It's about wanting to be alone and not have to manage paid staff or lose any of our privacy. 

We did, however, think we could double hand the 70 foot Hylas we toured last Fall. . (edit: yes, this is same wife who complains about the fenders for our 54. I don't try to understand)

So bigger may be better for some and not others, but it is definitely limited at some point.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> ...
> 
> It's about wanting to be alone and not have to manage paid staff or lose any of our privacy.


In case you change your mind, that has already been solved. I saw a megayacht show on TV where the yacht was designed so that the owners never had to see the crew. Ever. The crew had separate stairs and paths throughout the boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

DRFerron said:


> In case you change your mind, that has already been solved. I saw a megayacht show on TV where the yacht was designed so that the owners never had to see the crew. Ever. The crew had separate stairs and paths throughout the boat.


Would love to be in a position to have to seriously think about it. 

However, I have been aboard boats with separate crew quarters. They are still there, walking on deck, passing at the life gates and still have to be managed. It's not the same as being alone in a quiet anchorage.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> ... It's not the same as being alone in a quiet anchorage.


Timoneer was in Portland a couple weeks ago. No way that board could fit in most of the anchorages that one might consider quiet. If they could it would no longer be a nice quiet anchorage.

Thank God we only run into these mega-yachts at the marina or under way. They always seem to think it necessary to turn on every light including under water lights and leave them on all night. One of the things we love about gunkholing is being able to sleep with the blinds and hatches open.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

copacabana said:


> Actually, we're all pretty much in sync when it comes to home comforts. .....
> A final comment. The large boats I've been on are not so different in terms of "usable" space, compared to my 35 footer. I have a big, permanent double berth, like you. My U-shaped dinette is 2 meters long, like yours (normally they are the length of a berth) and a sofa on the other side of the cabin. I have a galley with ample counterspace, fridge, sink etc, though probably a bit smaller than yours. My head is large and comfortable. We have hot showers, like you. My dining table seats 6 people comfortably and 9 with the leaf extention. My cockpit is big and has high back rests and has a table for 6 to eat at. I have 6'6" headroom, like on your boat. The biggest difference, I find, is usually in the number of cabins and heads. You mention you have 3 double cabins. I look at bigger boats and ask myself, "what am I going to gain by moving up?" The answer is more cabins and heads (and work, expenses, frustration etc., but you already know my views on that .


The biggest differences I have seen from our last (smaller) boat to this one is the floor space in the main salon, and the sweeping deck. Our main salon "floor" was actually a narrow walkway between the settee and the opposing couch. Now we have an actual floor, large enough to have a small dance upon. We have the same number of staterooms, however each is much larger. Likewise with the heads, and the shower stall(s)... now we have 2. 
The cockpit is much bigger, and is somewhat seperated into an actual helm area, and then the guest area. 
The deck is flat, (forward of the almost pilot house / cabin housing), and has a lot more room up there than we had before. I can fold a sail onboard, instead of waiting to get to a dock.

Without any argument, doing the anti-fouling process will involve more gallons of paint, more hours of grinding, and more of everything. Likewise, there is a lot more teak to maintain. Not to mention the teak deck!

But, as you started with, I am that sort of sicko / type A person who actually enjoys these tasks. Perhaps that is because my "job" is a computer programmer, so I appreciate the opportunity to work outside, with my hands, and some tools, doing "real" work.

Our long range plan is to enjoy this CT 56 until we are too old to maintain all this woodwork, and then buy a fairly new Jenneau for our "retirement" phase.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Ohhh, I forgot to mention some of the other differences from our smaller boat to this one.

When I am pulling into a dock, with this FULL keel, and 65,000 lbs. of displacement, even with a current that looked like a rip tide, it was like a rock steering her to the dock. She did not move an inch from the dock when I pulled up to it. Had I been in the smaller boat, as you might have experienced at least once, unless we got lines to the dock right away, our boat would have been pushed off, and we would have had to circle around and try again.
This boat tracks through currents like you wouldn't believe. Someone was onboard as I was pulling into Beaufort N.C., who had "local knowledge", and he was quite concerned about the tide / currents which were prevelant at that time of day. Boy was he surprised when he witnessed absolutely no effect on our course. I didn't have to do a thing.
This much weight makes a huge difference. 

Come aboard and see what I am talking about. We are loving these improvements and wouldn't go back to a smaller one for all the tea in China.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> On the OP's question of relationships and the unintended consequence of debating the size of the boat, my wife and I have discussed how big a boat we would want, if money were no object.
> 
> For some background, there is a mega sailing yacht that I've seen for years in Nantucket, called TIMONEER. She is a 147 ft custom built yacht that is routinely raced in mega yacht races and wins often! Google her up. She is built for speed on the outside and as luxurious as a 5 start hotel inside. Coincidentally, I have learned that i have only one degree of separation from the owner, but haven't pursued it. I think I would giggle like a school kid if they invited me aboard......
> 
> ...


You and I are on the same track on this limitation! We sure wouldn't want to have any "crew" to handle our boat.

So, THAT (besides money), is what keeps us from having a Perini Navi, or thereabouts...


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> In case you change your mind, that has already been solved. I saw a megayacht show on TV where the yacht was designed so that the owners never had to see the crew. Ever. The crew had separate stairs and paths throughout the boat.


I still wouldn't even want them onboard. We do dirty things out to sea which I wouldn't want any prying eyes to see....


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## Yofy (Aug 15, 2007)

Well I just spent the better part of an hour wading through all the pages on this thread and what I can say is that now I know for sure that size IS an issue for you guys :laugher

On a more serious note. I am a woman, and Manny and I have been living aboard together for over 20 years. For the record we began living aboard on a Catalina 27 and now live aboard a Fortune 30. We have running water (as well as foot pumps), a well fitted out galley, AC and many more homey comforts.

I do believe that our relationship is stronger for the years of cruising and living aboard. Life at sea teaches you to problem solve and to work as a team. Living in a small space requires good communication skills and a little inginuity when time out is necessary. Manny uses our aft cabin for all his tools and spare parts, so that it has gradulally become his space. Now he has a small TV there. Often he'll watch a movie on it when he just wants time out. Some evenings he'll sit there and I'll stretch out in the main cabin with a book. On the hook one of us might take off in the dinghy for an hour or so, or go to the hamock in the bow. Too much togetherness can get a little intense.

One thing is for sure, we are healthier for our lifestyle. In our late 50's we note that we are more agile, and have stronger bodies than many of our land based friends. We are less stressed. 

Would a bigger boat make a difference to our relationship? No I don't think so although handling a 50 foot boat would be stressful for me. A larger boat would make life aboard more comfortable and allow us to have visitors for longer periods of time. 

What I do miss is the company of women. I have had to get used to being surrounded by men most of the time. Its changing but the sailing community is still predominantly male. This summer for the first time here, we have another couple living aboard next to us. I've really enjoyed chats in the cockpit and sharing stories over a cup of tea with her.

Robyn


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

From Yofy: "A larger boat would make life aboard more comfortable..."

And that is the unarguable bottom line which has been fairly elusive to extract from the die hard "we love our 30 something footer" group. 

A more comfortable life.... and there you have it.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Sheesh Doug, everyone has been in agreement on that from the beginning! That's not what we've been debating here, is it?

Yofy, nice to see you here. I've been enjoying your blog for a while now.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> From Yofy: "A larger boat would make life aboard more comfortable..."
> 
> And that is the unarguable bottom line which has been fairly elusive to extract from the die hard "we love our 30 something footer" group.
> 
> A more comfortable life.... and there you have it.


Apparently it is not inarguable. 
We have all been arguing about it for pages now.
I didn't realize that the end goal here is for us to agree with you, Doug. I still don't. I'd much rather have a well equipped cozy 30 footer than a 50 ft + boat. 
Different tastes, different needs different desires. You like what you like, I like what I like.
Why do you have such a problem with that, and feel it is necessary to denigrate anyone who doesn't think bigger is better, as seen, yet again, with your comment quoted above?


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Why do you have such a problem with that, and feel it is necessary to denigrate anyone who doesn't think bigger is better, as seen, yet again, with your comment quoted above?

He obviously is a short guy with a small pecker. To hang with the big dog's he needs to "buy" his way in with the 50 footer. Since he hasn't got to far offshore yet, and seems to enjoy his creature comforts at the dock, he is just pissing in the wind here.....


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

As obvious as it may seem, a strong relationship endures (without going into all the things that make a strong relationship), weak ones do not.


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## elspru (Jul 28, 2012)

Hmmm, so been looking at prices of these different boat sizes.
Gotta say it's pretty obvious price increase is exponential with size.
For instance while a 20 something footer is usually <$10 thousand, 
and 30 footers are between $8-100 thousand, 
40 footers are around $100-300
and 50 footers are $300 thousand to 1.5 million

my parents been paying off a $250 thousand house mortgage for almost 20 years now,
even though they both have full time jobs, as high paying computer programmers. 
meaning they come home from work really tired and have no energy for family.
When I was living with them, I decided I would actually be available for my children.
Is one of the main reasons having no or minimal debt is so important,
besides setting an example of how to cut off the banks' trough (interest),
they get plenty enough money from hijacking currency and enslaving nations.

Anyways to fit into my marina of choice, which is non-profit do-it-yourself style, 
have to have a boat that's under 36ft long. 
I can get a cheap 30 something footer, if willing to do the maintenance..

In terms of single-handing, I have perhaps a romantic notion of doing it with minimal (no) electronics,
so would prefer to have a tiller for mechanical steering, and maybe a cutter or yawl rig for sail balance.
I always like to consider, what if all those NWO plans pan out, and the option becomes live free or die.
So I prefer to go with things that we can make and maintain ourselves with mostly foraged stuff,
is why my ideal boat would be ferrocement, as they are much easier to make,
cement and iron is easier to produce than fiberglass and vinyl ester,
obviously are also not flammable, and easier to repair underway,
can get a 36ft one for $4,000 at the moment, 
fitted out for liveaboard with pressure water,
maybe we'll get it sooner rather than later.

For alone time, I don't think any boat could be big enough, since we produce energetic fields (aura's).
Usually when I want "alone time" what I Really want is "nature time" i.e. time to be in a forest, or swiming with some life forms, to recharge energetic fields. So for that the best thing is a dinghy for getting to shore, or a snorkle/scuba for diving. Often enough my spouse even opts to go with me. 
Typically I take advantage of these excursions to do some chores like composting seedballing (giving) or foraging (receiving). 

I wouldn't even consider having a washer/dryer since we don't use one now, 
only thing we really need for it is a tub with some standing room for washing,
and somewhere to hang our clothing to dry. 

But ya, gonna get my spouse's list of items she'd like on saturday,
I can imagine the main thing will be room for the kids.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I'd pass on the ferro-cement boat for sale on kijiji. In fact, I'd pass on ferro-cement for a first boat, 
It was a romantic idea in the 60s and early 70s, as was engineless cruising and cruising without electronics... 
And some, like Lyn and Larry Pardey have managed to build a career around it, but from a practical standpoint, especially in crowded anchorages like those in Toronto, Oakville and Hamilton Harbour, it is a very bad idea.

Regarding debt, there is good debt and bad debt- Good debt is getting a mortgage at 5% in a hot housing market where prices are rising 8-10% annually...like Toronto over the past three or four years. Bad debt is being stupid enough to buy a house in Toronto now. By being scared of interest you are limiting how fast your cruising kitty can grow, and ironically, lengthening the time it takes to get truly debt free.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

bljones said:


> Apparently it is not inarguable.
> We have all been arguing about it for pages now.
> I didn't realize that the end goal here is for us to agree with you, Doug. I still don't. I'd much rather have a well equipped cozy 30 footer than a 50 ft + boat.
> Different tastes, different needs different desires. You like what you like, I like what I like.
> Why do you have such a problem with that, and feel it is necessary to denigrate anyone who doesn't think bigger is better, as seen, yet again, with your comment quoted above?





DougSabbag said:


> From Yofy: "A larger boat would make life aboard more comfortable..."
> 
> And that is the unarguable bottom line which has been fairly elusive to extract from the die hard "we love our 30 something footer" group.
> 
> A more comfortable life.... and there you have it.


"A more comfortable life ..." A more comfortable *life *... not _boat_, but *life *... A boat is part of a life, but not the complete picture. Let's look at the whole picture.

You have a large comfortable boat and a job - right now, a "regular" job, in the future you intend to charter the large comfortable boat, by my definition, still a "job" as you cater to someone else's needs & schedule than your own.

I have a small comfortable boat and no need for a job - not now nor ever in the future (barring the sort of political developments whose discussion would move this thread to off-topic).

You enjoy doing the maintenance on that large boat. I enjoy watching someone else support his family by doing the maintenance on our small boat, his work paid for with the money left over from purchase of same small boat. (And before we get sidetracked - yes, I am perfectly capable of changing an impeller, stitching a sail, tracking down the source of a leak, all the safety skills whose lack could get you in serious trouble in a deserted anchorage. Different issue. Needs vs wants.)

What ticks me off about this "conversation" is that the undertone keeps shifting from bigger-is-better for _some _people, to bigger-is-better for _everyone_, if they would only admit it to themselves.

Our marina hosted a raftup last year in a great little anchorage, with a 6-1/2 foot bar at the entrance. Two of our dock neighbors with 40-45 foot boats couldn't attend the party because they were nervous about their draft on the way in. Left lots more free beer for those of us who had smaller, shallower boats.


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## melody1204 (Aug 3, 2012)

My beau and I just recently took the leap of faith and moved aboard our Cal 35 - with our dog! I worried that there would be an adjustment period, or that it would feel cramped. For us, it has not. We fell right into our routine, and like someone mentions above, you just have to find your own space. We go for walks with and without eachother, and we agreed to tell each other if we need some breathing room. So far, we have not had any problems whatsoever. I think if you have a good relationship and that you genuinely like eachother, then it's not hard to make it work. Good luck!

Melody

Vacilando | This is the story of two people, a dog and a journey. We'll choose some article almost certain not to exist and diligently try to find it.


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