# Dehler 39 racing........pointing



## EXILE (May 27, 2019)

HELP: Does anybody herein have a Dehler 39 that they race.

I am the new owner of a 2000 Dehler 39 that I race in club mid week twilights and winter mini series races.

The problem I am seeking help with is 'pointing'.

We are having difficulties getting the boat to point high and are getting out pointed by the likes of Bavaria 38 cruisers which I believe shouldn't be the case.

My sails are new.

How much tension should the back stay have?

Over to you Guys ....................


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Nice boat! that is bit of a big question. Because you asked about back stay tension I know you need to do a little reading about race tuning of the rig and sails. 
First which keel? deep or shallow draft? what size is the jib? type of mainsail battens? full or partial? Are the sails designed for racing? Basics of rig tune is the shrouds and any side stays are to keep the mast in column and straight side to side. the forestay length is to set the mast rack to balance the helm at a given wind velocity. The back stay tension is set to adjust the luff curve of the forestay to match the luff curve for the sail that you are flying. as the wind increases the backstay tension is increased to control the increase in forestay curve to the desired curve. With a 100% jib you may find that you can use jib sheet inhalers to help pointing because on the newer wide boats with a wide the cabin this prevents the deck mounted jib tracked being place a the best location for good pointing.
Blue line with ring to pull the sheet inboard to close the slot.


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## EXILE (May 27, 2019)

overbored said:


> Nice boat! that is bit of a big question. Because you asked about back stay tension I know you need to do a little reading about race tuning of the rig and sails.
> First which keel? deep or shallow draft? what size is the jib? type of mainsail battens? full or partial? Are the sails designed for racing? Basics of rig tune is the shrouds and any side stays are to keep the mast in column and straight side to side. the forestay length is to set the mast rack to balance the helm at a given wind velocity. The back stay tension is set to adjust the luff curve of the forestay to match the luff curve for the sail that you are flying. as the wind increases the backstay tension is increased to control the increase in forestay curve to the desired curve. With a 100% jib you may find that you can use jib sheet inhalers to help pointing because on the newer wide boats with a wide the cabin this prevents the deck mounted jib tracked being place a the best location for good pointing.
> Blue line with ring to pull the sheet inboard to close the slot.


Firstly overbored..........thanks for your interest and quick reply.

Keel: Deep but not the 39 Q keel.

Jib/headsail: 140% 48sqm by Rolly Tasker Tri Radial cut Newport Pro Radial cloth on a roller furler.

Main: By Far East Sails using DP laminate cloth Tri Radial cut with racer/cruiser roach with one full batten and 3 partial.

Regards


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

EXILE said:


> My sails are new.
> 
> How much tension should the back stay have?
> 
> Over to you Guys ....................


Did you buy the boat with new sails or did you buy the sails from a local sailmaker?

If the latter, talk to your sailmaker, he should be able to help you in many ways beyond just pointing. When I raced boats in your size category the sailmaker would show up and help analyze your boat and sail quiver to tell you which new sails would make you more competitive.

After you buy a new sail the sailmaker should show up on a race day and help you take advantage of the new sail. Your boat will suddenly be faster, but that will mostly go away when the sailmaker leaves your boat.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

Some more information and questions:

1. Prop - is yours fixed, folding, or feathering? If you have a fixed prop your performance will REALLY suffer.

2. Wind conditions - the lighter the wind the harder it is to point high. in 5 kts you'll be lucky to get to 45 degrees Apparent Wind Angle (AWA). At 15 kts you should be able to point higher than 40 AWA

3. Halyard tension - do you adjust for weather conditions? Light air = light halyard tension. Heavy air requires more halyard to flatten the sail.

4. Rig stuff - with a 140 headsail the clew will be aft of the spreaders. How narrow or wide is your sheeting angle? If the sail can't come in past the spreaders or shrouds it will be difficult to trim the head sail all the way in.

5. Rig stuff continued: Main sheet and traveler. Do you have a traveler and if so where is it? coachroof, bridge deck, or at the boom end? Boom end is the best. 

6. Backstay - There should be enough tension on the backstay so that the forestay does not sag. 

6. When going to max point in decent wind (8-10 kts) you need to have the headsail trimmed in hard. The main sheet should be on very hard. Then you use the traveler to get the boom up to the centerline. 

if you have those settings you should able to point as high as your boat will allow. Certainly higher than any cruising boat. Not as high as serious racing boats. 

Lastly, it takes time to get the boat to point. Don't just trim everything in and then steer to 40 degrees AWA. First build speed. Get the water flowing over the keel and rudder. Once you have decent speed then head up, trim in, head up, trim in. it's a gradual process that takes 30 seconds or so.

Next time you're out take some pictures of your sails. Aim straight up the mast. Also not the wind speed and your AWA.

Good luck,
Barry


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## EXILE (May 27, 2019)

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> Some more information and questions:
> 
> ...


Hi Barry.............firstly thanks for your reply.
Now:
1.'Flexofold' folding.
2.We find it harder to point in the higher winds.
3.With the halyard it has been basically set tight at the start/setup and leave.
4. We have no probs sheeting the headsail in tight and we run with the telltales.
5. Mainsheet traveller is at the boom end.
6. Backstay to forestay....will check this Saturday when out on the water.
7. Wind strength.........8-10 kts is light in my neck of the woods, somewhere between 12 to 20 is the norm, especially in summer. :grin

Will see if we can improve this Saturday with some changes to what we have been doing and checking out your tips.

Keep you posted.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

A Dehler 39's PHRF rating of 84 is pretty quick. You should be upset to be outpointed by a Bavaria that rates around 120. My first idea was that you'd bought a used boat and the sail was blown out. New sails should come with a sailmaker who will race with you to see what's going on and to set things up properly. Your waterline and sail area should be performing upwind as well as down. Your shrouds seem fairly well inboard, so barber haulers may help - but it depends upon the cut of the jib and how much backwind using them might cause in the main.


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## EXILE (May 27, 2019)

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> Some more information and questions:
> 
> ...


Hi Barry..............firstly thank you for your reply.

Now:

1. 'Flexofold' folding prop.
2. Should.
3. Halyard tension........have only been tight setting at the start/setup with no further adjustment with wind changes.
4. Have no probs sheeting in the Headsail and we run by the telltales.
5. Mainsheet traveler is at the aft end below the boom.
6. Will check the backstay tension in relation to the forestay (which is a furler) in this Saturdays race.
7. In my neck of the woods 8-10 kts is light wind as most of the wind we sail in(especially summer) is 12 - 20 kts.
8. Will do a bit more 'tweaking' this Saturday a see what happens.

Thanks.


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## EXILE (May 27, 2019)

paulk said:


> A Dehler 39's PHRF rating of 84 is pretty quick. You should be upset to be outpointed by a Bavaria that rates around 120. My first idea was that you'd bought a used boat and the sail was blown out. New sails should come with a sailmaker who will race with you to see what's going on and to set things up properly. Your waterline and sail area should be performing upwind as well as down. Your shrouds seem fairly well inboard, so barber haulers may help - but it depends upon the cut of the jib and how much backwind using them might cause in the main.


Thanks for your feedback Paulk............

When one buys ones sails overseas at a considerably better price they don't come with an onboard sailmaker to give his 2cents worth.:wink

Btw in light airs downwind we outrun 43' and 50' Beneteaus


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Maybe a silly question but are you trying to point before you get your speed up? I always had that tendency. I was told by my mentor "speed first point second".


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

EXILE said:


> Thanks for your feedback Paulk............
> 
> When one buys ones sails overseas at a considerably better price they don't come with an onboard sailmaker to give his 2cents worth.:wink
> 
> Btw in light airs downwind we outrun 43' and 50' Beneteaus


So now you're paying for it. Give barber-haulers a shot & see what happens. A smaller jib may also permit better pointing. Check the VMG to see if it improves, one way or the other.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

A PHRF of 84 is pretty respectable for a racer-cruiser of that length. However, as you describe your sail the boat will never come close to being competitive unless everyone is also using an offshore purchased main and roller furling headsail. To reach the boat's potential of an 84 PHRF, you would need a high tech specialized mainsail, 3 or more headsails 2 or more spinnakers and an experienced crew to make it all go.

You can only guess what your boat's potential PHRF is with it's the current quiver of sails, but I don't think a boat rated at 120 should be able to out sail your boat. If you want to get competitive as a racer, you should hire a coach for a day and go out with your crew. This coach may be the sail loft owner, he can teach you how to make your boat go faster, also tell you what's wrong with your current mainsail and why you should buy a new one from him.:grin

I met a guy here on sailnet that lived in my previous town. We sailed together. He was smart, tech-savvy, knew how to sail and had a nice boat with all the right sails. He did not know how to race though and crewed his boat with his co-workers from his tech company. We raced and were DFL almost every time for the first year. It took 3-4 for years to be competitive and sometime after that he was won a one-design regatta, which is a true test of ones racing skills. It took years of study and practice and he replaced almost his entire crew with experienced racers and replaced his perfectly good sails with slightly better ones. PHRF racing is not cheap or easy if you want to be competitive, but that is part of the fun.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

Good stuff.

So assuming your sails are decent and the bottom is not fouled with growth, there is not reason why your boat should not point very well.

12-20 kts wind is pretty high (IMHO). Are you sailing with a full crew or just 1 or 2? I race my boat doublehanded with my daughter (120 lbs soaking wet) and if the wind is 12+ true I need to reef the main. If I don't we are way over powered and the boat will heel way too much.

How much are you heeling in 15 kts of breeze? If it's more than 15 degrees that will slow you down.

I would think that in 15 or more kts wind you would want a lot of halyard tension (both main and headsail), a lot of backstay, hard out haul, and a lot of crew weight on the rail. Then the boat should really go to weather.

Please do some testing Saturday. Take some pictures, and come back and let us know how it's going.

On the boat I race on (not my boat) we sail with 6. I run the main. The head sail timmers know that when we tack the headsail doesn't come all of the way immediately. I let the traveler down, the driver sails a little low. As the speed comes up, the traveler comes up until the boom is on center line, and the headsail comes in, and the driver heads up. It takes about 10 seconds before we're back at speed and pointing angle.

Barry



EXILE said:


> Hi Barry..............firstly thank you for your reply.
> 
> Now:
> 
> ...


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## EXILE (May 27, 2019)

contrarian said:


> Maybe a silly question but are you trying to point before you get your speed up? I always had that tendency. I was told by my mentor "speed first point second".


Believe I am getting the speed/momentum up before I get into the point groove but I will take extra note of my actions when on the water this Saturday.

Thanks for your point to be aware of.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Max VMG hint, in lighter air, steer so the leeward telltales just start to lift. In a heavy breeze, steer so the windward telltales just start to lift.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Pointing is (almost) everything. I have a rival Boat who has cleaned my clock for 3 years, I now have him in most conditions and I will figure the rest out. I'm sailing a CS30 (PHRF165) and he has a C&C 30 Mk3 (PRHF159) with a bit more beam and consequently beam stability we have gotten to the point where he can outpoint me but I pass him on the low side easily because I'm holding more speed, don't let the other guy suck you into the same tack. If I pick sailing too close to the wind I lose more speed than he does is my point (no pun intended)

Windward duty IMO is all a factor of; Not necessarily in order.
1) Drag, clean bottom folding or feathering prop. More important in light air but not by much.
2) Good upwind sails and trim, bring the headsail in 4 " or so from top spreader and sail the tells. Trim Main to match. Watch the slot is not too wide or too narrow.
3) Speed, best speed for trim is essential, and constantly. The best recent addition I made is a swivel on my GPS (main speed indicator) if you can't see your headsail tails and speed at the same time you're done.
4) Don't overpower the headsail, dumping or feathering the Main is easy but if you have too much headsail up on a heavy Boat (really any Boat) it will just slow you down.
5) Go through the how much headsail do I want and how much Main do I want. Many days a full head will do fine with no Main but you don't want that, you need the slot and balance from both sails. Reef the Main on days you find it dumped all the time and consider a smaller Headsail so you can use the Main. 
6) Backstay tension is to control headstay sag, on my Boat 4" is what I want, a little more in light air but not much, its all about leeway.
7) Dont forget position and strategy stay high as much as possible to protect the windward position but don't sail away from the mark.
8) Everything you adjust downwind needs to be reset upwind, the best way to lose place is to forget to reset any one of your downwind adjustments.
9) Close quarters sailing can be good to see what everyone else is doing but a large course is different because everything opens up and you have to run your own race.

I could go on but you get the point (pun intended this time):wink


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

I recommend purchasing Sail Trim and Rig Tuning: A Captain's Quick Guide (Captain's Quick Guides) by Bill Gladstone. Implementing the guidance in this pamphlet will get you going


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> Good stuff.
> 
> ...


Good point on coming up slowly during a tack, I will say in my experience its all about momentum if like me you slow a lot (relatively) then this is very important. A heavy Boat that carries speed well not as much as a lighter Boat like me 8K disp 30' will need to foot off as you describe. Before I changed to a feathering prop I would die during a tack with a 14" three blade fixed on my Boat, what a drag that prop was!!


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