# Wood, Diesel or propane bulkhead heating stove?



## bmacfarquhar

I like the look of the bulkhead stoves I've been seeing at West Marine and around the internet. I think one would be a great addition to the cabin. I would be interested to hear how people have fared with different types of stoves, particularly different fuel types. Also am looking for feedback from a fire hazard perspective.

Wood seems the lowest tech - pro: could picture rounding up firewood on a beach at an anchorage for fuel. con: How much space would a woodpile take up compared to a jerry can of diesel or propane? Then again a woodpile might be safer then propane. Also what about the smoke will it discolour sails and deposit soot about the decks?

I like the window on the propane models I've seen that simulate a fireplace - won't have quite the good smell and charm of real wood and costs more then wood.

The diesels seem the least charming of the lot aesthetically but could be quite practical as the jerry can of diesel would already be aboard as reserve fuel. Might be kind of smelly and same question about soot?

Thanks in advance for all input...

Voyages of the Fibonacci


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## scottyt

personally propane is nice for instant pretty safe heat, but it gets used pretty quick. its some where around 20k btu per pound. 

i like the idea of wood a lot because its free, and i love a real wood fire.

diesel i like because it is safe, easy to store has decent btu per pound. 

if i had a boat that had storage space wood would be a no brainer for me, but it will probably be diesel if i ever need heat

edit wood has around 9k btu per pound, diesel is around 25k. so diesel will give the most heat per pound. a 20 lb propane bottle is around 4 gallons, and it will cost 13 to 20 per fill. the same heat from diesel will take about 3 gallons, and cost around 10. i can get would for 5 bucks per 20 lbs or so if i buy the bundles, or free from the woods. if i needed to heat my boat a lot and had the space i can put a 100 lbs of wood for free, vrs 80 bucks or so for propane and 60 for diesel. all about the same heat value


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## wwilson

My boat came with a Webasto diesel heater (cold Swedish summers, I guess). It burns the fuel pretty thoroughly - so there is no smoke, or soot and only the slightest smell of diesel at the exhaust port. Having it connected to the engine fuel tank spares us from having to carry separate fuel, or for that matter monitor a heater tank level. Most all diesel heaters eventually foul their fuel nozzle from the particulates in diesel. Once a year it is a good idea to run it on kerosene to clean the fuel nozzle (according to the Webasto rep.)

I have no reason to think that this solution is any better than the other heating choices you list, but if you do go this way, there is no reason to worry soot or the stench of diesel. Ours got a pretty good workout on the Bay of Fundy in August!

Wayne


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## sailingdog

Wood burning stoves are the worst from a fuel perspective. The fuel takes up a lot of space and provides relatively little heat for the amount stored. It has the lowest energy density, and is also the messiest to clean up. Have you ever emptied the ashes out of a fire pit...now imagine trying to do that on a boat without getting ash all over the interior.

Diesel is nice, since it poses the least risk from an explosion/fuel leak point of view. However, it does have the strong potential to coat the sails and rigging with soot. It is probably the safest of the three fuels to use in some ways. It is probably the least expensive of the fuels as well.

Propane is probably the most convenient of the three fuels. A propane powered heater generally doesn't require the coddling and maintenance of a diesel powered one nor the clean up of wood burning one. However, propane has the highest potential for an explosion. Given modern safety systems, like a fume detector and cutoff solenoid-these concerns can be handled and a properly installed system is going to be fairly safe. The exhaust from a propane powered appliance is going to be the cleanest of the three.

You will really want to get a vented heater or fireplace, since propane or diesel will add a lot of moisture to the cabin otherwise. If you get an unvented heater, mold and mildew will become more problematic due to condensation from the exhaust.

A vented heater is also less likely to exhaust carbon monoxide into the cabin. However, it would be a good idea to have and use a CO detector.



bmacfarquhar said:


> I like the look of the bulkhead stoves I've been seeing at West Marine and around the internet. I think one would be a great addition to the cabin. I would be interested to hear how people have fared with different types of stoves, particularly different fuel types. Also am looking for feedback from a fire hazard perspective.
> 
> Wood seems the lowest tech - pro: could picture rounding up firewood on a beach at an anchorage for fuel. con: How much space would a woodpile take up compared to a jerry can of diesel or propane? Then again a woodpile might be safer then propane. Also what about the smoke will it discolour sails and deposit soot about the decks?
> 
> I like the window on the propane models I've seen that simulate a fireplace - won't have quite the good smell and charm of real wood and costs more then wood.
> 
> The diesels seem the least charming of the lot aesthetically but could be quite practical as the jerry can of diesel would already be aboard as reserve fuel. Might be kind of smelly and same question about soot?
> 
> Thanks in advance for all input...


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## radly53

I have a wood stove that came with my boat, nothing beter than a wood fire on a cold rainy day at anker. Wood buring has many down sides; its messy, storeage is a pain, keeping an even temp means tending the fire offen, it's nice and worm when you go to bed and in the morning the fire is out and its 50F. I'm changing to diesel this spring....


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## klem

I have used all three although I haven't used propane much. For me, it comes down to how you use the boat. If you are sailing around the world, it would be diesel for me. If you went out on weekends, it would be wood. I can't see any scenario that I would prefer a propane heater over one of the other options.

It should be noted that most "wood" stoves actually burn wood pellets or charcoal. There are some stoves that are made to burn good old wood. The problem with collecting driftwood is that the shape is really weird and it is very hard to store. Storing nicely chopped wood or pellets isn't too bad if you are going out for a few days at a time. It should be noted that wood takes a lot more human input. It is harder to light (your fuel can get wet), you need to stoke it, and you need to dump the ashes. If you want something that you can leave on overnight, diesel is probably better.

I have a lot of experience with the Refleks heaters which are essentially diesel pan heaters. They will stink a tiny bit when lighting and shutting down but once you get good at it, it is hardly noticeable. I have actually never had to fix anything on one of these stoves. The schooner that I used to work on had one that also ran 3 radiators throughout the boat and that was really nice.

I don't really like propane because it is harder to refuel, you can't get the fuel anywhere, you need more safety devices and I like to have as many things be diesel as possible(one fuel is great).


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## Architeuthis

bmacfarquhar said:


> I like the look of the bulkhead stoves I've been seeing at West Marine and around the internet. I think one would be a great addition to the cabin. I would be interested to hear how people have fared with different types of stoves, particularly different fuel types. Also am looking for feedback from a fire hazard perspective.
> 
> Wood seems the lowest tech - pro: could picture rounding up firewood on a beach at an anchorage for fuel. con: How much space would a woodpile take up compared to a jerry can of diesel or propane? Then again a woodpile might be safer then propane. Also what about the smoke will it discolour sails and deposit soot about the decks?
> 
> I like the window on the propane models I've seen that simulate a fireplace - won't have quite the good smell and charm of real wood and costs more then wood.
> 
> The diesels seem the least charming of the lot aesthetically but could be quite practical as the jerry can of diesel would already be aboard as reserve fuel. Might be kind of smelly and same question about soot?
> 
> Thanks in advance for all input...


Bulkhead heaters are easiest to install but you have to cut a hole in the deck and have a stack on deck, yet something else to trip over or get a line caught on.

I think wood is actually the cheapest, at least in the Pacific Northwest. Just go ashore and collect it for free. But wood stinks.

Propane is the cleanest but most expensive to operate. I would get one for weekend use or light heating needs.

Did I mention about the hole in the deck? I don't like that.

So I went with a hydronic system, diesel. The exhaust is out the side, or in my case the stern. No hole in the deck, I like that.

But a proper stack has advantages. A proper stack does not care which way the wind is blowing it will always exhaust properly. With the exhaust out the side you have to pay more attention to wind direction. CO kills and the exhaust is much cleaner than the engine, you may not smell it if gets in the boat which it can do if you are tied to the dock and the wind is just right.

Nothing a couple CO detectors and paranoia can't take care of but still something to be aware of. Can be a problem with a stack as well but less so I would think.

So the answer to which heater is best is, like boats, different for each person. Which one is right for you I don't know but wouldn't recommend a hydronic system unless you have lots of money for the project or are planning to do lots of cold sailing or really do not want to put a hole in the deck.


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## JohnRPollard

When I was considering the various fuel sources for the Dickinson Newport bulkhead heaters, I contacted them directly and discussed options with one of their techs. I was intrigued by the solid fuel (wood, briquets, pellets, etc) heater. However, I was advised by Dickinson that this version is not recommended for serious heating of a cabin. It's intended more to take a slight chill off, and for ambiance.

For true heating purposes they recommended the diesel or propane version.

We went with propane, for a variety of reasons. Be advised that the diesel installation can be trickier, since the flue length needs to be greater to achieve proper draft. In most installations on mid-size boats, this effectively means the flue will protrude higher above the deck.

Some discussions of heaters here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/pacific-seacraft/57167-cabin-heater-type-arrangement.html

I'll try to find some more links of earlier discussions, too.


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## wind_magic

Like others have said, I think it depends ...

If you're one of those "just do it" types then I think diesel is your answer, you just install the thing right, get your diesel fuel which you probably already have for the motor anyway, and you're in business. Do some maintenance on occasion, install safety devices like CO detector, etc.

For me I see heating and cooling in a few more shades of gray than some ...

Some conditions just call for warmer clothing, extra blankets at night. Especially in September, but also through October and even some days in November, all you really need is to get bundled up in some cloth, I kind of think too much warmth on a cool September morning almost ruins it. Come late March, April, into May again you can be content with clothing and blankets, cup of hot chocolate or coffee to get going.

Some conditions call for Sarahfinadh's oil lamp approach. Having used oil lamps quite a bit this year I can say that if all you need to do is take the edge off, oil lamps are a very good option. They are warm, use simple easy to find fuel (and not much of it), and I think a good solution for preparing the space for going to sleep, just warm it up, blow out the flame, and get in under the blankets. Relighting the oil lamps in the morning along with cooking a bit of breakfast warms the place right back up, don't forget your slippers!

The above two things and a few other tricks can take you most of the way, but of course then from about late December through February you get real winter, actual cold (at this latitude, YMMV). When it gets really cold I prefer wood heat.

I think choosing wood heat really depends a lot on how you live. If you don't live on the boat all the time it probably doesn't matter much, but if you are on the boat all the time I think it matters much more. There are downsides, some written about above, others less obvious such as having to stay on the boat if you want to keep it from freezing because the fire has to be tended. Choosing wood is kind of like choosing to be without a watermaker, or a refrigerator, it is committing to a little extra effort every day or every week. With wood you really will have to clean it out sometimes, and you'll have to go ashore for wood, and store the wood, and all the rest. Without a watermaker you have similar kinds of chores, you'll have to get water. Without refrigeration you'll have to break out the pressure canner sometimes and can some meat, etc. All of those things are a bit of trouble, but if you're on the boat all the time, living on it, retired, isn't that part of the charm of it all ?


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## MC1

I just went through this decision process and decided on the propane bulkhead heater in my case, but I can certainly understand why other choices would make sense in other cases; there's some pretty decent products out there for each of the different fuel types.

A few factors that swayed me . . . 
1) I have a propane locker in the back of a canoe stern boat and since it's advised to vent a diesel exhaust where there's no risk of it being below the waterline when heeled over, such as on the stern centerline, I couldn't run a hot exhaust pipe through the propane locker, so this was problematic.
2) For long range crusing, I didn't want to draw off the my diesel supply in case it's needed for running the engine. I can use 2 20lb propane tanks on my boat so I can use the LPG for heating / stove and reserve diesel for the engine.
3) I like propane for the reasons stated by others above, but also agree that the precautions mentioned are really important, such as having a fume detector and a CO detector, and also performing the leak checks frequently.
4) The cost of the propane bulkhead heater is significantly less than forced air diesel heaters.
5) The forced air diesel heaters use a bit more battery to run the blower.
6) The simulated fireplace is a nice touch.

These were some of my reasons, but I agree there's some offsetting benefits for some of the other options that can make another choice better depending on the boat, user requirements, and budget.

I agree the duel intake / exhaust pipe is a real plus for the bulkhead heaters, so there's little risk of consuming all the oxygen in the boat and/or having the exhaust become a problem inside.

I share the concern about the 3" hole required in the deck. I'm considering installing a larger deck place first, and installing the intake/exhaust pipe into that, so if I were ever in really dangerous seas, I'd have the option to remove the pipe and substitue the deck plate lid. I haven't thought this one all the way through yet though, so I'd be interested in any feedback anyone might have on a better approach. The concern about getting lines tangled around it can often be mitigated by a guard the vendor offers.


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## scottyt

i wonder if someone lived on the boat and used a lot of heat, ie not electric heaters what it would cost to heat a 30ish foot boat for a normal east coast winter ( say new york to va area ). i dont mean heating for a weekend i mean for a winter. this alone could be a problem for those who run diesel heaters, as its kind of hard to run to the fuel dock when its closed or across a solid harbor. 

this could also be a propane advantage as home depot sells propane year round. but i am sure a 5 gallon jug of diesel will last days too. 

my cheapskate butt still like wood as its basicly free


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## Stillraining

Here's my buddy Here's my pal.


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## sailingdog

Hey Still—

You're looking a bit aged there...


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## JohnRPollard

wind_magic said:


> Like others have said, I think it depends ...
> 
> If you're one of those "just do it" types then I think diesel is your answer, you just install the thing right, get your diesel fuel which you probably already have for the motor anyway, and you're in business. Do some maintenance on occasion, install safety devices like CO detector, etc.
> 
> For me I see heating and cooling in a few more shades of gray than some ...
> 
> Some conditions just call for warmer clothing, extra blankets at night. Especially in September, but also through October and even some days in November, all you really need is to get bundled up in some cloth, I kind of think too much warmth on a cool September morning almost ruins it. Come late March, April, into May again you can be content with clothing and blankets, cup of hot chocolate or coffee to get going.
> 
> Some conditions call for Sarahfinadh's oil lamp approach. Having used oil lamps quite a bit this year I can say that if all you need to do is take the edge off, oil lamps are a very good option. They are warm, use simple easy to find fuel (and not much of it), and I think a good solution for preparing the space for going to sleep, just warm it up, blow out the flame, and get in under the blankets. Relighting the oil lamps in the morning along with cooking a bit of breakfast warms the place right back up, don't forget your slippers!
> 
> The above two things and a few other tricks can take you most of the way, but of course then from about late December through February you get real winter, actual cold (at this latitude, YMMV). When it gets really cold I prefer wood heat.
> 
> I think choosing wood heat really depends a lot on how you live. If you don't live on the boat all the time it probably doesn't matter much, but if you are on the boat all the time I think it matters much more. There are downsides, some written about above, others less obvious such as having to stay on the boat if you want to keep it from freezing because the fire has to be tended. Choosing wood is kind of like choosing to be without a watermaker, or a refrigerator, it is committing to a little extra effort every day or every week. With wood you really will have to clean it out sometimes, and you'll have to go ashore for wood, and store the wood, and all the rest. Without a watermaker you have similar kinds of chores, you'll have to get water. Without refrigeration you'll have to break out the pressure canner sometimes and can some meat, etc. All of those things are a bit of trouble, but if you're on the boat all the time, living on it, retired, isn't that part of the charm of it all ?


Windy,

There's some merit to what you say. We used these methods for years to take the chill off during the shoulder seasons, and got along alright.

That said, now having sailed for a few years with the real cabin heater -- I would NEVER go back. The difference in comfort level so is so stark that it's really beyond comparison. It's almost like the difference between sleeping in a tent and staying in a hotel (slight exaggeration). Our early and late season forays are much more enjoyable now. Of all the "comfort" investments we've made, that cabin heater was some of the best spent money.

Fuel choice is always debatable. As I've said in other threads, if we were long-term voyagers/live-aboards, I'd certainly give serious thought to the Webasto/Espar forced hot air diesel heaters. I've experienced those and they are wonderful units. But for our kind of sailing it's more difficult to justify that expense -- something like 10-15 times as costly.

Wood is tricky for a lot of reasons, but if that's what you prefer so be it. However, I would not recommend the Dickinson Newport wood heater for serious cabin heating, based on my conversation with them. Instead, if I was going with wood, I'd look at something more along these lines:

Navigator Stoves

Wouldn't it be cool to have one of those in an old wooden schooner?


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## JohnRPollard

*Dredged up some old threads*

Here are some old threads that discussed cabin heaters:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/47451-cabin-heat.html

I will add more as I find them. The search function is really clunky.


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## pdqaltair

*My experience with propane.*



MC1 said:


> I just went through this decision process and decided on the propane bulkhead heater in my case, but I can certainly understand why other choices would make sense in other cases; there's some pretty decent products out there for each of the different fuel types.
> 
> A few factors that swayed me . . .
> 1) I have a propane locker in the back of a canoe stern boat and since it's advised to vent a diesel exhaust where there's no risk of it being below the waterline when heeled over, such as on the stern centerline, I couldn't run a hot exhaust pipe through the propane locker, so this was problematic.
> 2) For long range crusing, I didn't want to draw off the my diesel supply in case it's needed for running the engine. I can use 2 20lb propane tanks on my boat so I can use the LPG for heating / stove and reserve diesel for the engine.
> 3) I like propane for the reasons stated by others above, but also agree that the precautions mentioned are really important, such as having a fume detector and a CO detector, and also performing the leak checks frequently.
> 4) The cost of the propane bulkhead heater is significantly less than forced air diesel heaters.
> 5) The forced air diesel heaters use a bit more battery to run the blower.
> 6) The simulated fireplace is a nice touch.
> 
> These were some of my reasons, but I agree there's some offsetting benefits for some of the other options that can make another choice better depending on the boat, user requirements, and budget.
> 
> I agree the duel intake / exhaust pipe is a real plus for the bulkhead heaters, so there's little risk of consuming all the oxygen in the boat and/or having the exhaust become a problem inside.
> 
> I share the concern about the 3" hole required in the deck. I'm considering installing a larger deck place first, and installing the intake/exhaust pipe into that, so if I were ever in really dangerous seas, I'd have the option to remove the pipe and substitue the deck plate lid. I haven't thought this one all the way through yet though, so I'd be interested in any feedback anyone might have on a better approach. The concern about getting lines tangled around it can often be mitigated by a guard the vendor offers.


I did an install of Dixon P-9000and you are invited to read my post:
Sail Delmarva: Search results for heat propane

3" hole in the deck.
No troubles yet, and I had 30 inches of melting snow at one point! Do seal the cuts with epoxy. The stack came with a good gasket and I added 3M 4200 for luck. the stack had no trouble melting a hole through the snow, though I did check on it now and then.

Heat on the deck. 
I can only speak for the Dixson. Because of the double wall pipe, the external pipe is only about 140F where it aproaches the underside of the deck. The sleave that touches the deck is only warm to the touch - you can hold it.

Wind. 
The Dixson design seems impervious. I have had 45 knots without trouble. Lighting in those conditions is a bit more touchy - close the door fast - but not difficult. I also added a solid spray guard forward to deflect green water.

Capacity.
Try electric heaters first, to be certain how much heat you need. I am an engineer and know how to calculate heat loss... but how do I know for sure what is in the walls and where the leaks are? I prefer test data.

Line snagging.
I made a custom guard that does fine. It also keeps lines away from the hot areas (would'nt want to damage a line). Do pick a deck location that is not underfoot. There should be a no-snag cure for any stack.

Power draw.
There is a fan, it's noisy on high, and so I generally turn it down. I only need high to warm the cabin, after which I turn the gas and the fan lower. The power draw is about the same as an anchor light. It will run without the fan, but the fan really helps spread the heat.

Heat distribution.
I have a cat and this is a real problem. I use fans to chase it around, but the sleeping cabins are aft, around a corner, and stay like ice. Some boats really need central heat, particularly for live-aboards. I think cabin heaters are for occational cruisers, like me.

Safety.
I added a CO monitor and it has never chirped. I have fume detectors and all of the standard propane safeguards. I like the fact that the Dixson is sealed from the cabin, further reducing potencial hazards.

Efficiency.
The stack temperature when at full load is 310F with 6% O2 in the stack, giving an efficiency of 85%. That is as good or better than most boilers, better than most all small heaters, and as good as you are going to get shrot of and ultra-high efficiency condensing system, not available on boats. I have heard some coment that the Dixson design is wastefull because it does not give heat from the stack. Not true; the combustion air is pre-heated and no cold air is pulled in under the door. All good, because propane is ~ $12/20 pounds for me.

Fire place look.
Nice. My daughter has used it for marshmallows!


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## wwilson

scottyt said:


> i wonder if someone lived on the boat and used a lot of heat, ie not electric heaters what it would cost to heat a 30ish foot boat for a normal east coast winter ( say new york to va area ). i dont mean heating for a weekend i mean for a winter.


Scott,

Here is some data from experience to help with your question: _over to you_ to "do the math". One gallon of diesel will run a Webasto 3500, 12,000 BTU (furnace type) heater for about 10-11 hours. This is from personal experience that also happens to match the manufacturer's claim.

That furnace is perhaps a bit larger than a 30-ft boat might need - a Webasto 2000, 7,000 BTU heater has a manufacturer's claim of 20 Hr per gallon. Based on experience with the 3500 - I have no reason to doubt the latter claim. The forced air nature of these heaters of course also requires a fan and the attendant electrical draw. There is nothing "cozy" about these things. They mount in the engine space and are designed to get as much heat from fuel as physics (and technology) will allow. No marshmallows!

In really cold Wx, I would expect a duty cycle of 75%, maybe more unless you have a well insulated boat.

s/v Auspicious - if you are out there - weigh in please. Dave has "wintered" in Annapolis harbor using (I presume) one of these.

Wayne


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## wind_magic

JohnRPollard said:


> Windy,
> 
> There's some merit to what you say. We used these methods for years to take the chill off during the shoulder seasons, and got along alright.
> 
> That said, now having sailed for a few years with the real cabin heater -- I would NEVER go back. The difference in comfort level so is so stark that it's really beyond comparison. It's almost like the difference between sleeping in a tent and staying in a hotel (slight exaggeration). Our early and late season forays are much more enjoyable now. Of all the "comfort" investments we've made, that cabin heater was some of the best spent money.
> 
> Fuel choice is always debatable. As I've said in other threads, if we were long-term voyagers/live-aboards, I'd certainly give serious thought to the Webasto/Espar forced hot air diesel heaters. I've experienced those and they are wonderful units. But for our kind of sailing it's more difficult to justify that expense -- something like 10-15 times as costly.
> 
> Wood is tricky for a lot of reasons, but if that's what you prefer so be it. However, I would not recommend the Dickinson Newport wood heater for serious cabin heating, based on my conversation with them. Instead, if I was going with wood, I'd look at something more along these lines:
> 
> Navigator Stoves
> 
> Wouldn't it be cool to have one of those in an old wooden schooner?


I agree with you, I think wood is probably too much trouble for most people, and I have no doubt at all that a forced air diesel would make a world of difference in comfort. In that way it is kind of like the difference between wood heat in a home and central heating, the wood heat is more trouble there too, most of the same issues. The biggest issue, in my opinion, with wood heat, is simply that you can't set it and forget it, that means you are essentially tied to the stove from December through February if you want to keep the place from freezing, and that is a real concern if you have a lot of canned goods or other things that you can't let freeze. On land not so much of a problem - make a root cellar. But, on a boat, different story. I think on a boat it could be a very long winter if the longest you can be away from the boat is half a day or a day at a time, you just can't load that much wood into a wood stove, it is going to burn out and eventually the stove is going to cool, then everything on the boat is going to freeze up, and that is going to happen no matter what kind of wood stove you have.

All that said, I still like my wood stove. 

No reason a boat can't have both too, I suppose. Use the wood stove when you are on the boat for long periods of time, then flip a switch and use the forced air diesel for times when you are away. Mo money.


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## SVAuspicious

wwilson said:


> Here is some data from experience to help with your question: _over to you_ to "do the math". One gallon of diesel will run a Webasto 3500, 12,000 BTU (furnace type) heater for about 10-11 hours. This is from personal experience that also happens to match the manufacturer's claim.
> 
> *snip*
> 
> s/v Auspicious - if you are out there - weigh in please. Dave has "wintered" in Annapolis harbor using (I presume) one of these.


Hi Wayne!

We ought to ping Cracker Jack, who has more experience than I do.

I spent one Spring in Sweden, one Winter in Washington DC, and two Winters in Annapolis using a Webasto 3500. I have one winter in Annapolis using an Espar D5. Fuel consumption definitely depends on how cold it is and I expect on how well insulated your boat is.

I run between 1/2 and 1 gallon diesel per day during the cold months. I spend at least a couple of hours a day with the heater cranked up and some hatches cracked open for ventilation.

I carry 120 gallons of fuel and try to stay topped up through the winter. At the moment I'm down to about 20 gallons and waiting for ice to clear off Back Creek so I can get to the fuel dock. If that doesn't happen in the next week or so I'll start jugging fuel.

I'll try to check in regularly in case you have specific questions.

I will say that based on hanging with other liveaboards, forced air diesel heat would be my choice again, followed by diesel hydronic, then electric (which means being plugged in somewhere and subject to utility failures, followed by propane (wet) or wood (messy). YMMV.

sail fast!


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## JohnRPollard

SVAuspicious said:


> I will say that based on hanging with other liveaboards, forced air diesel heat would be my choice again, followed by diesel hydronic, then electric (which means being plugged in somewhere and subject to utility failures, *followed by propane (wet)* or wood (messy). YMMV.


Just to avoid any misperceptions, I wanted to clarify that while moisture is a by-product of propane combustion, the Dickinson Newport propane heaters have eliminated this as an issue.

These use a sealed combustion chamber with double-walled chimneys to expel all moisture from the cabin space. Air for combustion is drawn from outside the cabin, down the outer flue of the chimney, into the sealed combustion chamber, and then the by-products of combustion are expelled above decks via convection and the inner flue.

The net effect is dry, radiant heat, and the double walled chimney is essentially "self-cooled", so there is not a scorching hot chimney in the cabin space rising up to the overhead. It's a pretty neat set-up. But like I said, probably not the best answer for long-term live-aboard.


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## SVAuspicious

JohnRPollard said:


> Just to avoid any misperceptions, I wanted to clarify that while moisture is a by-product of propane combustion, the Dickinson Newport propane heaters have eliminated this as an issue.


Agreed, but if you are going to all that trouble, why not use one of the Dickinson diesel bulkhead heaters. I recognize that reasonable, rational people can look at the same data and reach different conclusions. From my perspective, the energy density of diesel is higher than propane, the cost / BTU is lower, you end up with fewer propane connectors inside the boat, and fuel capacity on most boats is substantially higher.


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## wwilson

SVAuspicious said:


> Hi Wayne!
> 
> I run between 1/2 and 1 gallon diesel per day during the cold months. I spend at least a couple of hours a day with the heater cranked up and some hatches cracked open for ventilation.
> sail fast!


Thanks Dave,

I got interested in Scott's Q and ran it out in Excel - lots of assumptions but the data seems close to your experience; i.e. .5 to 1.0 G/Day coldest.










Wayne


----------



## JohnRPollard

SVAuspicious said:


> Agreed, but if you are going to all that trouble, why not use one of the Dickinson diesel bulkhead heaters. I recognize that reasonable, rational people can look at the same data and reach different conclusions. From my perspective, the energy density of diesel is higher than propane, the cost / BTU is lower, you end up with fewer propane connectors inside the boat, and fuel capacity on most boats is substantially higher.


I guess my earlier point was, moisture is not an issue with these units.

As for the pros and cons of diesel vs propane as a heater fuel -- we've hashed that out quite a bit in some of the other threads. A strong case can be made for both, in my opinion.

But briefly, in defense of propane:

-- Only one propane connection inside the cabin, and that's at the appliance. The one other connection is in the sealed, vented propane locker. Diesel has multiple connections (at the tank, the pump, the appliance) increasing chance of leaks/odors.

-- Virtually no maintenance on the propane units. Diesel units require more cleaning/maintenance.

-- Propane burns cleaner. Diesel can leave a soot/residue on deck and occasional odors.

-- Propane can get away with a 24" flue height. I forget what the measurement is for diesel, but to achieve proper draft, flue length needs to be quite a bit longer. This is not a problem on some boats, but on others it can be tricky.

*EDIT:* According to Dickinson, the Diesel Newport heater requires a 48" minimum flue length. That works in some boats, but is very problematic in others. Usually resulting in a higher profile on deck.

-- Lower power draw with propane (just the remote solenoid). Diesel has an electric fuel pump (admittedly, not a huge draw, but the propane can run with NO power (by-pass the solenoid) whereas diesel must have it.)

-- Simpler propane installation. No wiring necessary (unless hooking up optional fan). Just a single propane line from locker to appliance. Diesel requires a fuel line as well as a wire run to the fuel pump, plus a place to mount the fuel pump (in addition to the appliance.)

*EDIT: * Also, the flue stack for diesel requires a 5" hole in the deck, whereas the propane flue requires "only" a 3" hole. That results in a hole nearly 3X the size. Drilling these holes is the scariest part of the installation.

-- Lower initial cost for propane appliance because there are fewer components.

As for fuel reserves/consumption - I guess it depends too. You're right though, diesel offers better btus and most boats have decent tankage. But for weekenders/vacationers with reasonable propane capacity, these propane units are very frugal too. We only carry 20 lbs propane, still it has not been an issue at all.

Again, the intended use is important here. For long-distance voyaging or living aboard, diesel is a very compelling fuel choice and I'd say the scales tip for it. But for weekending/vacationing, propane has many merits too.


----------



## MC1

pdqaltair said:


> I did an install of Dixon P-9000and you are invited to read my post:
> Sail Delmarva: Search results for heat propane


I read your post, very informative and good to hear all is going well so far. Thank you.


----------



## Shortman

Quite happy w/Dickenson Newport Propane. Knocking off the Maine chill in May, Sept, early Oct. Does not use that much fuel, they have the usage ratings on their website, I think.


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## MedSailor

I've owned and used all systems except the hydronic heat. I've used that one on other people's boats. I'd say I have to agree with most of what everyone here says.

1. Hydronic heat is the safest, easiest, most efficient and DEFINATELY the most expensive. This is what I'd choose if I were to sail high latitudes year round and had the cash.

2. Diesel drip pot (dickenson) type. Second easiest, second safest. I have slept with these running at night, but don't really like to. I've also seen people get creative with copper tubing around the stack and a pump and make their own hydronic type system. These are a really good option all around IMHO and some of the models have a window to watch the flame.

3. Propane. Propane heat sucks unless you're a weekend sailor. We have a wall mounted propane stove currently and it will NOT really heat up the boat in modest cold. It also cooks through a heap of propane in doing so and finding a place to fill those heavy bottles is much more hassle than dealing with the other fuels.

4. Wood heat. Ahhhh.... I love wood heat. Much messier, less efficient lb for lb, more effort, less safe than diesel (arguably more or less safe than propane). The reward in romance is incalculable though. It's also a really nice dry heat and contrary to what dickenson says you can REALLY put our a lot of heat if you want to. I had the "cole stove" which is basically dickenson's solid fuel stove. It was nice because you could view the flame but it was _not airtight_. This is a key point because it decreases your ability to control the flame and you can not easily extinguish the flame either. The only true efficient, safe and controllable stoves are airtight. I wouldn't sleep with my dickenson style wood stove burning, but I would with a controlled flame in an airtight stove. I'm currently looking for a wood stove for my new boat which is both airtight and has a window for viewing the flame. So far I haven't found any, though I may see if I can get this guy to make me one. Traditional Cast Iron Marine Stoves by Navigator Stove Works,Inc.

I tried EVERY type of fuel that you could possibly burn in my wood stove. I never did get pellets to burn very well, and try I did. Charcoal works fine but is messy. The best fuel by far, from my perspective, was the duraflame 2hr fire-logs. They burn cooler than wood (but plenty hot enough) and are consistant. I would cut a log in thirds and each third would burn 2 hours and make my 31ft boat 80-90deg. If you find them on sale they're dead cheap and since they're made of mostly wax they don't mind being stored in a wet bilge. Regular wood burned too hot for me, required much more sawing and re-adding of fuel and driftwood, while free and attractive has such a high salt content that unless you have a 316 stainless stove the salt and heat will soon put holes in your stove.

I absolutely want to pitch my propane stove overboard and go with wood. It's not entirely for rational reasons, but I'm wiling to put up with the extra effort for that nice dry, radiant, romantic heat. It's also a heck of a lot more fun to light than a webasto. :hothead

MedSailor

EDIT YIIPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEE!!!!!!! The awesome cast iron stove maker I referenced above is now making glass panels for his stoves!!! I[ve seen these stoves and they're fantastic! Some are even EPA certified (ie less soot) and you can even get drop-in cooking burners for them. Finally the wood stove I've been waiting for!!    Before next winter I will have a wood stove again. YAY!


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## wwilson

MedSailor said:


> 1. Hydronic heat is the safest, easiest, most efficient and DEFINATELY the most expensive...


Good post Med. I am guessing that you mean "most expensive" in initial capital outlay. Once installed, the fuel is relatively inexpensive.

Wayne


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## MedSailor

wwilson said:


> Good post Med. I am guessing that you mean "most expensive" in initial capital outlay. Once installed, the fuel is relatively inexpensive.
> 
> Wayne


Yes. That is what I meant.

BTW another unstated advantage of wood is that you can reduce the refuse you carry aboard. Sort your trash into burnable and non-burnable. Turns your space occupying trash into some heat.

Medsailor


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## JohnRPollard

MedSailor said:


> ....
> 3. Propane. Propane heat sucks unless you're a weekend sailor. We have a wall mounted propane stove currently and it will NOT really heat up the boat in modest cold. It also cooks through a heap of propane in doing so and finding a place to fill those heavy bottles is much more hassle than dealing with the other fuels....


Which propane heater are you using?

I would think you'd need at minimum a couple of them for a 41 footer. Our single unit is just right for our 31 footer -- your boat is probably 2.5 times (or more) the internal volume. Ours is the smaller of the two Dickinson Newports (P9000).

But, that said, if I couldn't heat our boat with a single bulkhead mount heater (diesel, wood, or propane), I'd be looking at other options. I just can't see installing multiple units and using up that much "wall space" or drilling that many holes in deck.


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## degreeoff

I am debating wethet to make my own wood stove for my Cat 30. It would be easy enough and I have the tooling to make a nice stainless one here at my house. I would (wood) want it for the off season months as well and do not live aboard or anything. I know much about wood burning as it is my primary heat sorce in my 3500 sq ft home (with oil as a backup) and just love the radiant heat!

josh


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## MedSailor

degreeoff said:


> I am debating wethet to make my own wood stove for my Cat 30. It would be easy enough and I have the tooling to make a nice stainless one here at my house. I would (wood) want it for the off season months as well and do not live aboard or anything. I know much about wood burning as it is my primary heat sorce in my 3500 sq ft home (with oil as a backup) and just love the radiant heat!
> 
> josh


This is exactly what I have been thinking about doing for quite some time. A liveaboard neighbor of mine enrolled in a community college "intro to welding course". As their end of class project they had to make something. He made his stove. It turned out quite well, not an art piece, but very functional. In total it cost him about $250 in tuition and special matereals (like the glass and gasket) and he got to use all their tools equipment etc. Also at the end of all of it he ended up with a useful skill.

Another type of heat I have been dreaming up when the engineering part of my mind is bored is a hydronic system with circulating hot water and radiators just like a webasto system, except instead of a webasto generating the heat, what about using a small diesel genset? This would of course take up far more space than a webasto and likely use more fuel, and be louder, but if your boat has large power demands, or if you already have a genset, you could use it's coolant to heat your boat. There is lots of existing hardware out there to convert engine coolant into heat, such as red-dot heaters or even car heater parts.

MedSailor


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## WanderingStar

I'm considering using my propane oven for heat. If I vent it from the burners (cover two, vent one) out the hatch or portlight, I shouldn't add moisture. The rest of the heat should warm the cabin, and I won't have to add any gear, or take up space.


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## Architeuthis

WanderingStar said:


> I'm considering using my propane oven for heat. If I vent it from the burners (cover two, vent one) out the hatch or portlight, I shouldn't add moisture. The rest of the heat should warm the cabin, and I won't have to add any gear, or take up space.


I looked at that but here is the catch. Venting removes the heat.

So you want to put something over the burners that is going to be heated and then radiates that heat.

I did a quick design and ended up with something that was quite sizable, had some weight to it and some complexity as I didn't want to use cabin air for combustion air.

I decided to go with hydronic but I'm not sure why there are not more heat adapters out there other than they do have to be custom fitted and of course like all heaters make a mistake and everyone in the cabin dies....


----------



## MedSailor

WanderingStar said:


> I'm considering using my propane oven for heat. If I vent it from the burners (cover two, vent one) out the hatch or portlight, I shouldn't add moisture. The rest of the heat should warm the cabin, and I won't have to add any gear, or take up space.


Yeah, it'll work but not all that well. I have one of these on my boat, which, when you look at it, is just a vented propane stove burner for $500. It will heat up 1/2 of my 41' boat in the spring, or fall. Waste of money and space if you ask me. In fact, the flame isn't even protected and once the cat set her tail on fire with this thing!










Medsailor


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## WanderingStar

Architeuthis said:


> I looked at that but here is the catch. Venting removes the heat.
> 
> I decided to go with hydronic but I'm not sure why there are not more heat adapters out there other than they do have to be custom fitted and of course like all heaters make a mistake and everyone in the cabin dies....


I have a CO detector on board. 
I thought I would put metal plates over two burners, and a vent from the third. The heat should be conveyed through the sides and top of the oven, and the plates, even the stack. I have found that using the oven warms the cabin. I don't plan to use this for freezing temps, just the occasional cool night. What kind of oven were you using? How did you vent it? I figured maybe 3" pipe.


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## wind_magic

Someone probably already mentioned this, but I think the classic solution to radiating heat from a burner is putting a clay flower pot over it.

I used oil lamps this year and they really take the edge off of a cool evening.


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## JohnRPollard

MedSailor said:


> Yeah, it'll work but not all that well. I have one of these on my boat, which, when you look at it, is just a vented propane stove burner for $500. It will heat up 1/2 of my 41' boat in the spring, or fall. Waste of money and space if you ask me. In fact, the flame isn't even protected and once the cat set her tail on fire with this thing!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Medsailor


Ahhhh. Now that explains your earlier comment "propane heat sucks". 

Yes, that kind of propane heat does suck. 

But what you have is nothing at all like the propane heaters offered by Dickinson in the Newport line. Completely different animal.

Yours is just a re-badged galley stove burner, with an "open air" chimney stack.

Not only that, they are not rated to heat a boat anywhere near the size of yours. Can't blame the heater for that.


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## JohnRPollard

WanderingStar said:


> I have a CO detector on board.
> I thought I would put metal plates over two burners, and a vent from the third. The heat should be conveyed through the sides and top of the oven, and the plates, even the stack. I have found that using the oven warms the cabin. I don't plan to use this for freezing temps, just the occasional cool night. What kind of oven were you using? How did you vent it? I figured maybe 3" pipe.


Unless the burner element is in a sealed combustion chamber, you will end up with a lot of moisture in the cabin, just like Medsail's unit.

You may not notice the moisture so much when cooking. Even when you're running the oven, it's generally for a relatively brief period of time. With heaters, you are running them for hours and hours and hours. If you do the same with the oven/stove, you will have high humidity in the cabin space. With the cold outside temp, pretty soon the moisture will be condensing on the cool cabinsides, and in no time you'll have a rainforest.


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## Architeuthis

WanderingStar said:


> I have a CO detector on board.
> I thought I would put metal plates over two burners, and a vent from the third. The heat should be conveyed through the sides and top of the oven, and the plates, even the stack. I have found that using the oven warms the cabin. I don't plan to use this for freezing temps, just the occasional cool night. What kind of oven were you using? How did you vent it? I figured maybe 3" pipe.


Sounds like a clay pot might do the trick for occasional cool nights.

My design was based on heat exchangers that transferred heat to air which is all it would really be. I had the whole top of the stove, encased. Mine is square, steel and easy to cover. Thick aluminum plates would be across the top of each burner a several inches above the flame (actual distance and flame setting would be determined in testing). The plates would angle up toward the middle so the hot exhaust gases would rise and combine then hit other plates which would direct the gases through a 3" insulated duct to the portlight or the hatch directly above.

The main part would look like a box about 12" high sitting on the top of the stove. Most of it would be made of flat bar aluminum including fins on the outside over which fans would blow cabin air. I think I would end up using a heat shield so people could fall against it or grab it for support and to direct the heat to the center of the cabin.

A fun project that can be done with basic tools but not one I wanted to do on the boat though I still think about it. The advantages were cost. A few hundred dollars buys a lot of scrap flat bar (none of the pieces are longer than 2'), it uses outside air for combustion air, exhausts through an already existing hole in the deck and can break down for storage. It also collected water, not that I would drink it.

But still not as nice as Hydronic. Hydronic is crazy expensive and much harder to install than making a heat exchanger for the stove but it is push button easy to use and doesn't preclude having coffee in the morning!


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## daydreamer92

Is anyone familiar with these? I have seen them on a couple Friendship Sloops (my "someday..." boat). Cropped this image from an ad.

I like how they look classic.. I'm wondering if they work well to take the edge off of a chill.


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## MedSailor

daydreamer92 said:


> Is anyone familiar with these? I have seen them on a couple Friendship Sloops (my "someday..." boat). Cropped this image from an ad.
> 
> I like how they look classic.. I'm wondering if they work well to take the edge off of a chill.


That stove is the "Pet". It's a great stove, by the same people that make the "Tiny Tot".
http://www.fatscostoves.com/images/StovePictures/PetFront.jpg
Fatsco Stoves

They're tiny, airtight (a must for wood stoves) and affordable. I've seen them up close and they're quite a nice stove. The only reason I don't have one already is that they don't have a window.  They would DEFINATELY take the chill off your boat, and actually could heat it quite well. Wood heat is not lacking in it's ability to warm an area, quite the opposite actually as I spent my time looking for a fuel that didn't burn as hot. Duraflame 2hr firelogs were what I found worked best, with charcoal working nearly as well, but messier.

To illustrate the point I once decided to take my dickinson pacific stove and put wood in the part where diesel is supposed to go. Actually it worked like a charm except for the fact that it burned so hot that the heat proof paint on the exhaust stack (that had withstood years of usage as a diesel stove) began to bubble and blister.

As for the flower pot idea on the stove top or in the oven I've had it suggested by many a salt, but never actually tried it. If you do, remember that a 500deg flower pot looks EXACTLY like a cold one. Use mitts.

John, I suspected that my stove sucked, and that propane might have some redeeming features in other models. Still, while my BTU rating is tragically low and inadequate to heat half my boat, it still cooks through a 5gal bottle in 5 days or less. If I were to use the dickinson with twice the BTU wouldn't I be going through 3 (heavy) propane bottles a week? Also since my overpriced stove burner IS vented I don't get the rainforest effect, though that is it's only advantage over running the stove.

MedSailor


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## MedSailor

Just in case anyone is crazy enough to try this. Here is a great website to help you DIY a heater install. It's actually a computer cooling enthusiast site, but the principles are exactly the same. Instead of robbing heat from a CPU and distributing it to the air, you rob it from your engine's or genset's coolant, or from copper pipe run around the exhaust stack of your diesel, wood, or propane stove and distribute it to the air.

Radiator - Review Tom's Hardware : DIY Water Cooling 101

Basically this is how to build a red-dot heater, or replace one of these (bottom right of the page)
DickinsonMarine.com - Alternative Heating

for a fraction of the cost.

MedSailor


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## WanderingStar

Arch, I don't think mine would need to be that complicated. The flame in the bottom of the oven would provide heat. Like any oven, that vents out of the burner opening on top. If I cover two and vent one I should be ok. That would also let me cook on top.
While I don't want to fog the cabin, condensation is unlikely. My hull is 1.25" thick wood, which is an excellent insulator. She also has ceiling inside the planking.
I have used the Aladdin Lamp for heat, it does help.
Many people love wood burners, plenty of traditional boats have them. i was aboard a 40' last October that had a coal stove. It was lovely.


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## WanderingStar

daydreamer92 said:


> Is anyone familiar with these? I have seen them on a couple Friendship Sloops (my "someday..." boat). Cropped this image from an ad.
> 
> I like how they look classic.. I'm wondering if they work well to take the edge off of a chill.


I sailed a 26' Friendship for years, she was a peach. Which model do you like? The Dictators (31') are great.


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## JohnRPollard

MedSailor said:


> ...John, I suspected that my stove sucked, and that propane might have some redeeming features in other models. Still, while my BTU rating is tragically low and inadequate to heat half my boat, it still cooks through a 5gal bottle in 5 days or less. If I were to use the dickinson with twice the BTU wouldn't I be going through 3 (heavy) propane bottles a week? Also since my overpriced stove burner IS vented I don't get the rainforest effect, though that is it's only advantage over running the stove.
> 
> MedSailor


Med,

A couple things: When you said that "propane sucks" earlier in this thread, I suspected that you likely had a Force 10/Sigma Cozy Cabin propane heater. Many folks with that unit have the same impression of propane. Not only is it a tiny, low out-put heater (way too small to make any difference on your boat), but it is a notoriously "wet" one.

Yes, your propane heater IS vented. But that's not the same as having the combustion taking place in a sealed chamber. It helps some to have that vent stack, but you will still get a fair bit of moisture released into the cabin space because the flame is in "open air".

The solution to that problem and other safety issues (such as oxygen depletion), is Dickinson's sealed combustion chamber coupled with a double-walled chimney. It is a much smarter approach.

Also, on the "burn rate" of propane: Our P9000 will run continuously for almost 6 days on a 20 lb tank of propane. But it would be unusual to run it continuously. Most folks that use these have more limited heating requirements.

In our case, we typically use it more like 4 hrs in the morning, 4 hours in the evening. Often less. Sometimes in very cold weather we might run it for a total of 12 hours. So we could easily stretch that propane out 2-4 times as long, i.e. 12-24 days of moderate to heavy usage. That would cover a 3-week vacation trip, or ten full weekends. For many sailors, ten weekends represents the entirety of the spring and autumn "shoulder seasons" when supplemental cabin heating is needed.

Having said all that about pounds of propane consumption, I have to ask: Do you have any idea how many pounds of firewood you'll be going through with one of those wood stoves!? Good lord almighty, there will be no comparison. 

A large portion of our heat growing up was from wood, and even today we supplement during the cold weather with wood. I like wood heat. But one single armload of wood weighs more than a 20lb propane tank!! And an armload lasts about 1/4 a day in a conventional woodstove. Not to mention the mess.

So I remain baffled by the suggestion that propane is not a good fuel for heating due to burn rate, but wood is!?

I would agree, and have said repeatedly, that propane isn't the best solution for SERIOUS heating requirements away from the dock. On most boats, diesel(preferably of the Webasto/Espar variety) or kerosene is likely the best solution for those requirements.

But propane has it's place. A *correctly sized and designed* bulkhead propane heater is almost ideal for weekending and vacationing on moderate-sized boats. They are simpler to install, and burn more cleanly, than comparable diesel versions. And compared to woodstoves, they are the epitome of practicality and convenience.

Even dockside liveaboards might consider propane. With shore power, propane can be easily supplemented with small, thermostatically controlled, oil-filled electric heaters. Yes, picking up another canister of propane every few weeks is an inconvenience. But I know in my case I'd rather do that than cart jerry jugs of diesel back and forth to the filling station - even if at a less frequent rate.

Unfortunately, the O.P. never told us how he plans to use his heat. Weekending/vacationing? Living aboard at the dock? Long-distance high-latitude voyaging? It's difficult for any of us to offer a firm recommendation without knowing the answer to that question.


----------



## MC1

JohnRPollard said:


> Med,
> I would agree, and have said repeatedly, that propane isn't the best solution for SERIOUS heating requirements away from the dock. On most boats, diesel(preferably of the Webasto/Espar variety) or kerosene is likely the best solution for those requirements.


As always, nice job spelling out the trade-offs John. With regard to SERIOUS heating requirements away from the dock . . . I did also consider this in deciding between the Newport Dickinson P-12000 vented bulkhead propane heater and the Webasto Air Top EVO diesel heater. SERIOUS for me however, means long term away-from-the-dock heating (but with routine access to marinas for reprovisioning), but still either seasonal use (if up north) or use further south, NOT a requirement for living aboard year-round in Nova Scotia or similar (now that would be SERIOUS!).

The higher electricity demands of the Webasto, it's higher initial cost, greater installation complexity, and further loss of my already limited storage space due to having ducting run through the boat, pushed me in the direction of the P-12000. I have a smaller boat though (PSC 34), so I'm not in the situation where I'd need two bulkhead heaters.

Agree, this is definitely a case where the best solution completely depends on the specific boat and usage requirements. Regardless, there's issues that apply to all cases, such as guarding against oxygen depletion and excess moisture, avoiding inconvinence (e.g., for me - carting wood), etc..


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## MedSailor

John,

Thanks for defending the cause of propane. I'm enjoying this discussion and learning a lot. When I said "propane sucks unless you're a weekend sailor" I hope that still reads that is is a viable option for a weekender. Also, I later said "I suspected _my stove_ sucks" after learning a little more about the issue. Indeed, after your last post I did more research and found that MY stove's propane consumption is 3.3hrs/lb (66hrs per 20lb bottle)at 6,500BTU whereas the dickinson ones consumes approximately HALF as much propane for the same BTU!! My stove _does_ suck! My recommendations against propane for serious heating were based on my personal experience and I didn't have reason to believe (until your posts) that the other stoves would be dramatically different.

Armed with this new information I will seriously consider putting a dickinson propane fireplace up front in the V-berth where the salon wood stove's heat will not likely reach. The small diameter vent is also easier to install up forward where there is more stuff in the way and I am more likely to have water on deck.

To address your question about Lb usage of fuel for the solid fuel stove, I did warn folks that my reasons for loving wood stoves were not entirely rational/practical. It's hard to beat a diesel stove (of either type) for that. To answer your question though I use the duraflame type firelogs which are 3 lbs. I cut them in thirds and they run for 2 hrs per chunk. Wikipedia says they are 8,500btu/lb so that should mean it is a 8,500 btu stove that requires one lb of fuel per hour. Looks like the larger dickinson propane stove would run 5hrs on a lb of fuel. So, not rational/practical at all, but those aren't the only criteria for my decision making.

An example of the joy I derive from my stove, even when my stove hasn't seen use in a month, is in though the look on people's faces as they were imagining my suffering as a liveaboard and then I tell them I had a fireplace on my boat. I would then joke that having a wooden boat meant I will never run out of fuel. It's also much more effective to invite a companion over to enjoy some wine on the boat in front of the fire than to invite a companion over to enjoy your forced air central heat. 

In defense of my insanity, I put it to you that EVERYTHING about sailboat ownership is grounded in insanity rather than rationality. After all it's the romance of it all that we're after, not the fastest or most efficient way to get to our destination, otherwise we would buy plane tickets. The wood burning stove adds more romance and joy to my boat than anything else on board that I am not married to. 

Stay warm!
MedSailor


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## JohnRPollard

Med,

There's much to agree with in what you say. And some good humor too.   Thanks for the chuckles.

I cannot fault anyone's _preference_ for wood. I think I mentioned earlier in this thread how I'd love to own one of those little Navigator stoves. In fact, my wife and I have even considered finding a place to put one in our house -- just because. Maybe someday we'd be fortunate enough to have a boat where it could serve.

But I think if I owned a boat as large as yours, for serious heating requirements or voyaging far afield, I'd be looking at diesel forced air. The bulkhead heaters are great, but once you get to a size where two are necessary, then the cost comparison changes quite a bit. Of course, there goes your ambiance.

Anyway, this has been a good discussion all around. Hopefully the O.P. found it helpful. We've had some similar threads here on Sailnet over the years, but the search function is so decrepit it's been tough locating them. I'm almost inclined to make this one a sticky, so others can find it in the future for reference....


----------



## MedSailor

One more quick propane question regarding the dickinson stoves.
If:
1 gallon of Propane ~= 4.23 lbs ~= 91690 Btus 
1 lbs of Propane ~=21,676 Btus 
20 lb tank of propane holds approx 4.73 gallons of propane (433,694 BTUs)

Then for the dickinson 9000model if you run it at 5500btu/hr you should only get *78.9* hours of usage (433,694/5500 ~= 78.9) yet the dickinson website claims 140hrs at this rate.

For the high setting of 7500btu they claim 100hrs though 433,694/7500 yields *57.8*hrs by my math.

What gives? Surely a pound of propane can't produce more than 22000 btu. So does the stove not run as long as they say, does it not put out quite as many btu as they claim, or am I missing something else? I'm hoping that I'm missing something as I'm actually sold on the idea of a dickenson 9000 for a forepeak heater on my boat if their numbers are indeed correct.

MedSailor


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## pdqaltair

*Yup, I agree with your math....*



MedSailor said:


> One more quick propane question regarding the dickinson stoves.
> If:
> 1 gallon of Propane ~= 4.23 lbs ~= 91690 Btus
> 1 lbs of Propane ~=21,676 Btus
> 20 lb tank of propane holds approx 4.73 gallons of propane (433,694 BTUs)
> 
> Then for the dickinson 9000model if you run it at 5500btu/hr you should only get *78.9* hours of usage (433,694/5500 ~= 78.9) yet the dickinson website claims 140hrs at this rate.
> 
> For the high setting of 7500btu they claim 100hrs though 433,694/7500 yields *57.8*hrs by my math.
> 
> What gives? Surely a pound of propane can't produce more than 22000 btu. So does the stove not run as long as they say, does it not put out quite as many btu as they claim, or am I missing something else? I'm hoping that I'm missing something as I'm actually sold on the idea of a dickenson 9000 for a forepeak heater on my boat if their numbers are indeed correct.
> 
> MedSailor


... and it matches my expereince. Of course, if you turn the heater off now and then, which you will, it runs much longer.

My installation notes:
Sail Delmarva: Search results for "let there be heat"

The fan is a bit loud on high, but it doesn't need to be on high. You will need a rope deflector/cap guard.


----------



## JohnRPollard

MedSailor said:


> One more quick propane question regarding the dickinson stoves.
> If:
> 1 gallon of Propane ~= 4.23 lbs ~= 91690 Btus
> 1 lbs of Propane ~=21,676 Btus
> 20 lb tank of propane holds approx 4.73 gallons of propane (433,694 BTUs)
> 
> Then for the dickinson 9000model if you run it at 5500btu/hr you should only get *78.9* hours of usage (433,694/5500 ~= 78.9) yet the dickinson website claims 140hrs at this rate.
> 
> For the high setting of 7500btu they claim 100hrs though 433,694/7500 yields *57.8*hrs by my math.
> 
> What gives? Surely a pound of propane can't produce more than 22000 btu. So does the stove not run as long as they say, does it not put out quite as many btu as they claim, or am I missing something else? I'm hoping that I'm missing something as I'm actually sold on the idea of a dickenson 9000 for a forepeak heater on my boat if their numbers are indeed correct.
> 
> MedSailor


Med,

That's actually pretty interesting -- I'm a bit intrigued. I've never picked apart those numbers like you did. It might be interesting to do the same analysis on their diesel heaters too.

Hopefully some of our physics and engineer types will chime in here and explain this to us. But until they do, and at the risk of being completely wrong in my assumptions, I'll take a common sense stab at it.

As I see this, the figures you cite above are for the BTU output of the propane alone when it combusts. But, there is also an appliance in the equation -- the heater -- which is designed to maximize the return from the heat output of the fuel source. The heater -- made from heavy gauge metal, containing baffles and chambers -- in a sense "stores" and accumulates the heat from the fuel source. This allows a smaller flame, and therefore a lesser amount of fuel, to achieve a higher radiated BTU output from the appliance.

Consider the extreme case where the flame has been extinguished and yet the appliance continues to radiate heat long afterwards. When it's doing that, there is zero propane consumption, and therefore zero BTUs from the flame, yet the appliance is still a viable heat source. In other words, with the flame extinguished, the radiated heat output from the appliance is greater than the amount being generated by instantaneous propane combustion. The same would be true, but to a lesser extent, when the flame is burning.

Not sure if that explanation makes sense, or if it would withstand scrutiny from our scientific community. But another way to think about it might be to question the need for or benefit of the appliance at all. Why bother putting all that effort into designing and constructing the complicated appliance, if the only factor that matters is BTU output of propane when it burns? If according to some immutable law of physics BTU output is BTU output and it makes no matter how BTUs are captured, stored, manipulated, reflected, amplified, why would we bother innovating new heating devices? Why not just have a simple burner with a flame and a chimney to vent it?

Anyway, I'll be interested to hear from folks with a more scientific grounding  in this subject matter.


----------



## JohnRPollard

*Another Option?*

Last night I remembered another heating option that is available to boaters. This was mentioned by a Sailnet member in one of those other boat-heater threads that I can't find (d!*# search function!)

I don't have any experience with or direct knowledge of these devices (frankly, it seems almost like black magic to me ), but the member reported good results and they are also used widely in RVs. Maybe worth a look?

THE PLATINUM CAT -- Propane/Natural Gas Catalytic Heaters


----------



## sailingdog

Yes, but these will add a lot of moisture to the boat's interior.



JohnRPollard said:


> Last night I remembered another heating option that is available to boaters. This was mentioned by a Sailnet member in one of those other boat-heater threads that I can't find (d!*# search function!)
> 
> I don't have any experience with or direct knowledge of these devices (frankly, it seems almost like black magic to me ), but the member reported good results and they are also used widely in RVs. Maybe worth a look?
> 
> THE PLATINUM CAT -- Propane/Natural Gas Catalytic Heaters


----------



## RonRelyea

*heater moisture vented outside?*



sailingdog said:


> Yes, but these will add a lot of moisture to the boat's interior.


website for the heater says the moisture is vented out ... sounds good ... anybody know the costs??


----------



## sailingdog

Somehow, I seriously doubt that they can vent all the combustion by products through a 1.5" hose, especially given the area of the catalyst bed.



RonRelyea said:


> website for the heater says the moisture is vented out ... sounds good ... anybody know the costs??


----------



## JohnRPollard

As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are quite a few other good threads here on Sailnet concerning cabin heat options. Whereas I spent a fair bit of time describing the advantages of propane as a heat source, some of those other threads contain persuasive and good information about other fuel and heater options.

Unfortunately, the Sailnet search function has been tempermental for quite some time now, and I haven't been able to find them.

That is why I made this thread a prominent "Sticky" -- i.e. so it can easily be retrieved/reviewed in the future. I would like to encourage folks who come across those other threads to post links to them here in this thread.

I posted a couple links earlier, but I'll repeat them here:

Cabin Heater on a Crealock 37

Cabin Heat

Also, here is a thread about a related aspect -- it addresses the concern some sailors might have about taking on water through the chimney of a bulkhead-mounted heater in rough conditions off-shore.

MC1's Solution For Temporarily Capping Off a Chimney When Going Off-Shore


----------



## mackconsult

Diesel all the way.


----------



## Funsail

Am I under the mistaken assumption that diesel is a "dry" heat? As apposed to propane.


----------



## JohnRPollard

Funsail said:


> Am I under the mistaken assumption that diesel is a "dry" heat? As apposed to propane.


Now you're just messing with me.


----------



## scottyt

JohnRPollard said:


> As I see this, the figures you cite above are for the BTU output of the propane alone when it combusts. But, there is also an appliance in the equation -- the heater -- which is designed to maximize the return from the heat output of the fuel source. The heater -- made from heavy gauge metal, containing baffles and chambers -- in a sense "stores" and accumulates the heat from the fuel source. This allows a smaller flame, and therefore a lesser amount of fuel, to achieve a higher radiated BTU output from the appliance.
> 
> Consider the extreme case where the flame has been extinguished and yet the appliance continues to radiate heat long afterwards. When it's doing that, there is zero propane consumption, and therefore zero BTUs from the flame, yet the appliance is still a viable heat source. In other words, with the flame extinguished, the radiated heat output from the appliance is greater than the amount being generated by instantaneous propane combustion. The same would be true, but to a lesser extent, when the flame is burning.


this is not true sorry to burst the bubble, the stove cannot create heat. the propane will waste btu's heating the metal. the metal will store some btu but you need btu to heat it, once warm there is no waste but no heat for free

i still like the idea of wood


----------



## pdqaltair

*Ther are many components to efficiency, but the main two are...*

* Exhaust temperature. lower is better.
* Control of excess oxygen, or draft control.

The fuel type is not specifically relevant, but generally proper draft control and low stack temperatures (high efficiency) are simpler to achieve with propane. That said, diesel clearly offers the best combination of simple and compact "BTU storage" in a fuel tank and is more efficient in that sense.

I suggest Googling general furnace efficiency to learn more.


----------



## JVallely

Scottyt's right. Though John R Pollard makes some interesting observations, the total amount of heat that comes out of the stove has to equal the heat generated by the burning fuel--no more, no less, counting that which goes up the flue or is otherwise lost to outside.
What heat is radiated after the flame is out is only that which was absorbed by the stove and surrounding objects while the flame was burning. When the stove was first lit, the metal and the boat had to absorb heat before it was hot enough to radiate heat. You might say that's the heat it gives off after the flame goes out.
Baffles, materials etc. make a stove more efficient by controling the air flow to the flame, limiting the flamable gasses that escape without being burned, and limiting the heat that's lost up the flue. They make the stove heat the boat more efficiently, but by themselves don't make it any hotter.
So Medsailor's calculations stand on their own, and don't need to take stove design into account.
John V.


----------



## JohnRPollard

JVallely said:


> Scottyt's right. Though John R Pollard makes some interesting observations, the total amount of heat that comes out of the stove has to equal the heat generated by the burning fuel--no more, no less, counting that which goes up the flue or is otherwise lost to outside.
> What heat is radiated after the flame is out is only that which was absorbed by the stove and surrounding objects while the flame was burning. When the stove was first lit, the metal and the boat had to absorb heat before it was hot enough to radiate heat. You might say that's the heat it gives off after the flame goes out.
> Baffles, materials etc. make a stove more efficient by controling the air flow to the flame, limiting the flamable gasses that escape without being burned, and limiting the heat that's lost up the flue. They make the stove heat the boat more efficiently, but by themselves don't make it any hotter.
> So Medsailor's calculations stand on their own, and don't need to take stove design into account.
> John V.


You know, I've been meaning to get back to this one. Intuitively, I'm inclined to agree that you (and Scotty) are correct on this.

Yet I do continue to wonder what the advantage to having the appliance is then (other than containing and venting the exhaust). Why not just run the open flame from a burner?

I guess what I mean in part by this is, that when "rating" the output of a heater, does the rating standard or formula only track btu content of the fuel source?

Or, in other words, are we talking about apples and oranges? There is a btu content of the fuel source, and a btu rating of the appliance. But are they necessarily one and the same?

This would seem like a crude way to calculate btu output of an appliance -- seems like any two appliance that consumed the same amount of fuel would always have the same btu rating (the fuel's btu rating). And yet some appliances (heaters for example) are rated more/less efficient than others with identical output.

I still would be interested to hear how the numbers crunch on the diesel version of the Dickinson heaters. This might give us some indication if we're comparing apples to oranges. But I'll let someone else do that.


----------



## n8kraft

An electric heater is great for use pier side, then a drip type diesel or kerosene heater like a taylor lavac stove. Taylors 079D I use a combination of electric heat and the kerosene heater to keep the cabin toasty warm even down to 20 degrees F.


----------



## VallelyJ

Those are good questions about measuring the efficiency of the fuel vs that of the appliance, and I don't know the answers, precisely. From my experience heating with wood, I can tell you that the efficiency of a stove refers to its ability to extract the maximum amount of heat from the fuel. It's measured in various ways. But basically, a cord of dry locust will contain x BTU's. Stove A will burn it and produce a percentage of that, while stove B will produce a different percentage.
Much has to do with the amount of the fuel that actually gets burned. Combustion requires fuel, air and heat. Much flamable gas leaves the burn zone without combusting because it never encounters air and heat in sufficient amounts before it gets sucked out of the stove. A more efficient stove puts the right amount of air, heated to the right temperature, in the right place. Likewise, a flue that is too cold won't draw enough air into the burn zone; one that is too hot is burning some of the fuel after it's left the combustion chamber and it goes up the chimney. All stoves aren't equal and internal design matters, but an inefficient stove gets more heat out of a unit of fuel than an open flame does, just by managing the above three requirements better. And by absorbing some of the excess heat to radiate after the fuel burns out.
I don't know how manufacturers tweak their numbers to their advantage, but I'm sure they do and personally I don't take them seriously. Outside temp, flue temp, room air temp, humidity and other factors affect whether my stove burns as efficiently in my boat as it did in the lab that tested it. I wouldn't expect every Newport 9000 to produce 9000 btu's uniformly. I'd just expect it to produce less than a Newport 12000. About the only thing we can predict or control is how well we insulate.
Probably more than you wanted to hear, but it's about all I have to think about during the long northern winter.
John V.


----------



## Kitt

*Tiny Tot by FATSCO*

You might look in a Tiny Tot by FASTCO ( they have a website) . They are small and efficient and retro sturdy and can burn whatever little bits you can find on the beach including bark. With the stove top attachment you can cook or make coffee. Sailors have used them for years.


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## SeaLifeSailing

*Informative Thread*

Wow - there's a lot of great information in this thread!

I'll chip in with my two cents' worth... My boat came with a force 10 propane (exposed flame) bulkhead heater. It's essentially useless as far as I am concerned, because it simply loads the cabin with moisture, and has obvious carbon monixide risks, while you're at it. When cruising, I might use it on a very cold morning and then vent the cabin while we sail. As an on-again, off-again winter liveaboard in a wet climate, I found that an oil-filled electric heater coupled with a basic fan kept the boat toasty warm, and a dehumidifier running into the bilge kept the cabin bone dry, all at an affordable cost, with very little in the way of up-front cost.

That said, for cruising, I'll replace the force 10 with a dickensen propane bulkhead heater, but only because there's already propane to the heater. If I were starting from scratch, I'd use a diesel heater, partially because they are more efficient, and partly to cycle through the fuel in my tank more often. Even though I spend a lot of days sailing, during the winter my diesel fuel can sit for a long time, and that doesn't do anyone any favors.

So I'll substitute the open flame propane bulkhead heater for a closed flame dickenson for the time being, and then install a hydronic system running on diesel when the money faiery pays me her next visit. I like that you can capture heat from the heat exchanger during the day to keep the boat warm if you are running under power.

Friends who have such a system changed out their Espar diesel furnace for a german variant, which they say cut their annual maintenance costs down from $1-$1.5K per year, to about $1K every 5 years. They heat a 44 foot sailboat, and can achieve positively tropical temperatures when it's below freezing out.

I'd love a wood heater on board if it suited my needs, but the reality is that I simply don't have the space for wood, or the time to muck around with it when I have sailing students aboard.

Any thoughts on the best manufacturer and configuration for a hydronic system would be much appreciated.

Cheers!


----------



## SoulVoyage

*Diesel....but with a caveat.*

Being from Alaska, I have come to often desiring heat, quite often requiring heat, and fairly often needing to jury-rig ways so that I can continue having heat.

I've seen minus 58 degrees in Fairbanks, Alaska, and thus have grown quite fond of localized, indoor heat. I still hate OUTDOOR heat and humidy, but indoor heat that one can shut-off when one desires is quite fine in my book. I think too many nights of non-banking woodstoves at minus fifty degrees turned me into a real-life Sam McGee from Robert Service's "The Cremation of Sam McGee. See link here http://www.arcticwebsite.com/ServiceCremation.html, as least as far a desiring heat.

As far as boat-heat is concerned, I have a "Hi-Seas" diesel bulkead heater that works via a small brass electric fuel-pump and a fancy, mechanical control valve. This system worked great for a number of years, and the quiet, steady tick from the fuel-pump always told me everything was okay with the system. That tick meant blessed heat...and as long as it was ticking, I was warm. Diesel is DEFINITELY the ticket for good, efficient boat heat in a cold environment...but there is a caveat:

Well, sounds can be just as deceiving as looks, and sometimes one can have more heat than one would EVER want..

The first time I woke up and put my feet down on a spreading puddle of diesel fuel on the cabin sole, I knew I should look into the cause.

The first time I woke up to a puddle of spreading, FLAMING diesel fuel on the same cabin sole, I knew I should look into the cause and find a solution RIGHT NOW...I mean, not tomorrow, not next hour...THIS minute. Nothing like flames on a boat to get one into quick action. After using almost 3 fire-extinguishers to put out the flaming puddle and making SURE it was out (a stream of flaming oil kept coming from the heater onto the sole like napalm!!), I began to ascertain the problem and then a possible solution. No damage, thankfully except for days of finding yellow extinguisher dust EVERYWHERE and my ego. I think my ego was even coated with that yellow dust!

The problem #1: The fancy mechanical control valve decided to go haywire internally. Problem #2: The trusty electric fuel pump doesn't know it was an accomplice to a boat that could have burned to the water-line and didn't know when to shut-off.

The solution. The circular file for both of offending parts. Well, I still use the electric fuel pump as a transfer pump and a bleeding pump.

I still needed heat, though. These kinda things usually happen when it's frigid...strange, eh? My solution: I obtained a copper 1 and a half gallon day tank with bicycle valve from an old kerosene stove. I went to the hardware and aqcuired a very simple and cheap needle valve-type shutoff valve that fits 1/4" copper pipe and a new length of pipe. I connected the pipe to the day-tank's output fitting and the connected the needle shutoff valve directly to the input for the heater. The day-tank fits neatly in the head, and after I took off the blue paint and polished the copper, it looks nice to boot. I drilled a small hole for an air hose through the bulkhead, and bungy-corded an old-fashioned style bicycle hand-pump to the main cabin bulkhead, this I attached to the day-tanks air fitting. Am looking for an old brass antique-style bike pump that works. Anybody have one?

The system works wonderfully and extremely simply AND much more safely. Here's how:

When I want heat, I simply pump up the air in the day-tank, pressurizing the fuel/air mixture. This starts the fuel flow. I adjust the needle-valve so it lets in just enough fuel to light the heater, I then pump up the day-tank to full pressure and re-adjust the needle-valve so it works fine for a steady flame. Gradually, as fuel is used, the tank air-pressure drops...and so every once in a while, I need to re-pump the day-tank. It is safer because if I fall asleep or leave the boat, the air pressure drops to the point where it doesn't allow ANY fuel to the heater...thus acting as a good fail-safe to anymore unexpected fires.

With this system, the day-tank fuel lasts about three days worth of heat at a gallon and a half. That's about a buck fifty a day for heating costs at three bucks a gallon. When using the original electric fuel-pump format, I used up quite a bit more heater diesel fuel and plus had the disadvantage of a burning boat.

This system keeps the boat at a toasty 68 to 80 degrees (except for the lower ankle sections of the cabin...but a flame-thrower doesn't keep these areas warm on ANY boat!), and does so with grace and simplicity and safety. And becasue I grew up as a woodstover, I love the self-reliance of knowing that I can have blessed heat even without relying on a bit of 'lectricity!! I don't mind a little pumping....it keeps the blood flowing! Keep it simple.

I'll post some pictures when I get them uploaded from my camera.


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## WanderingStar

Great story, thanks. You can probably find the brass pump on ebay (like everything else).


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## ulferlingsson

Have you considered kerosene? (As used in cabin kerosene lamps.) Much less smelly than diesel. With non-smoke versions it's pretty human-friendly. I used to have a kerosene burner in a central heating system with radiators under the bunks. Excellent combination, kerosene and sailing boats.

The "Ge-Hå" heater is made in Sweden, by POD AB, thus not available in the US. The only noise is from the circulation pump for the water. Since it is a 12 V pump run on 6 V you have to put your ear next to it to hear it. It has 1.3 kW effect, and requires four 1-m radiators. With that onboard I could sail in the winter, no problem. I put it in the closet, doesn't need much space.

Here is a photo of the burner: POD


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## Stuff4Toys

This has been an interesting thread, much information has been shared. Not to hyjack this thread, but wondering what size boat you are talking about heating here. I have a Cat 27 and cannot imagine having the room to add a heater.

JOhn ><>


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## mitiempo

This is one example that will fit almost any boat and is an excellent product.


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## n8kraft

*Heater*

I have a 27 foot Catalina and it has a small kerosene/diesel drip heater mounted in the forward part of the cabin by the v-berth.


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## mitiempo

Diesel drip - what brand?


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## n8kraft

I did a blog post a while ago here: Sail Everett: Blakes Lavac Taylor Kerosene Heater Works great for me. In port with electric I just use an electric heater. If we're anchored out it's just the kerosene heater and snuggling.


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## mitiempo

Interesting. Rare over here, unless on a UK imported boat. Must have been expensive for the original purchaser.


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## n8kraft

I sail out of Everett, WA. Just North is British Columbia which may have been where the heater came from. My sail inventory was made in Canada.


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## mitiempo

I'm in Victoria, originally from Vancouver. Years ago there were a few stores that imported UK gear in small quantities. I've seen the Taylor's stoves and the Lavac heads which have good US & Canada distribution - I have one. But I have never seen that heater locally before. Found them on this UK site 
http://www.yachtparts.co.uk/shop/below-deck/heaters
but the least expensive model at today's exchange rate is about $2050.
Keep it well polished - it prices like gold.


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## OceanFreedom

A third alternative is Webasto’s Hydronic diesel water boiler / heater that will also heat your boat. Semi-trucks use these systems to heat their cabs. I have friend living is Seattle and he love it. It alows him to heat water and warm the boat underway without the use of his engine. 

Also I have been told but never verified that some insurance companies will not insure boats with propane heaters or “on demand” water heaters. Might want to ask, just in case.


----------



## OceanFreedom

*Third Alternative*

A third alternative is Webasto's Hydronic diesel water boiler / heater that will also heat your boat. Semi-trucks use these systems to heat their cabs. I have friend living is Seattle and he love it. It always him to heat water and warm the boat underway without the use of his engine.

Also I have been told but never verified that some insurance companies will not insure boats with propane heaters or "on demand" water heaters. Might want to ask, just in case.


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## mitiempo

You're correct, the on demand water heaters are a big issue with insurance companies and surveyors. But propane heaters like the Dickinson with a vented stack are not a problem as long as the normal propane regs are followed.


----------



## sailingdog

Hope you have a good CO detector installed.. 


chrisncate said:


> Here is our new heater:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davey Hotpot Stove
> 
> Have not installed it yet, but after seeing it in person I have no doubt that it will work really well. I'll update as I go...


----------



## knotted

*Furnace efficiency dissertation... long*

I work in real estate, doing for buildings and houses what surveyors do for boats and their buyers. So I have a little insight into furnaces, and by extension, boat heaters. After all, a boat heater is but a miniature furnace 

Fuel is simply an energy source; fuel going into a heater/furnace has a specific energy content, measured in BTUs per: lb, gallon, litre, cu. ft. or cu. M, or what have you. The heater/furnace is designed to consume fuel at a nominal rate, measured in lbs, gallons, litres, cu. ft. or cu. M, etc, usually per hour. _Specific energy content_ times _flow rate_ gives the _energy input per hour_. You can determine the specific energy content of your fuel of choice for comparison with other fuels. You can calculate how much fuel you need to consume in an hour to get a particular heat output (without regard for energy conversion efficiency - your actual consumption will be higher) Calculating your heat needs, though, is a whole, different animal!

Combustion isn't 100 percent efficient; some unburned fuel escapes with the combustion products or gases. Conversion by the heat exchanger of heat energy in the flame to usable heat energy outside the furnace/heater is also not 100% efficient, the exhausted combustion gases aren't at room temperature. If they were at room temperature a venting fan would be needed to draw them out of the combustion chamber; the fan becoming an energy charge against the system. The energy for the distribution fan in a forced air system should also be considered to get the overall energy picture.

In a domestic furnace an efficiency of about 90% to 92% is good and not expensive, and efficiency of about 96% is achievable with present technology (2011) but about twice as expensive. I never advise getting the 96% efficient furnace because the payback period from the savings in the gas cost is way too long to be worthwhile, at present natural gas prices. The 90% to 92% furnace pays for itself quite quickly if you're upgrading from say 65% efficiency.

So the heat energy equation becomes:
_Energy in_ less _lost energy from unburned fuel_ less _lost energy in hot combustion gas exhaust_ = _energy out_ 
Fans have an energy cost but not in terms of the combustion fuel.

The efficiency of the heater/furnace is the _energy input/energy output_ times 100 percent. This number seems to be _never_ quoted by heater suppliers or manufacturers. It should be based on actual testing in accordance with specific standards.

It is somewhat of a cop-out to quote a rated heat output and a fuel consumption rate without a standard against which it is measured, although comparison between heaters can be made on the basis of fuel consumption for heaters _rated at the same output_, and if you can trust the manufacturer's figures. But this won't let you accurately compare a heater rated at 3,000 BTU per hour with one rated at say 4,000 BTU per hour.

Re the Platinum Cat Heater, as it's based on radiant heating, its effect is limited to line of sight, although possibly a water filled heat exchanger (copper tubes in front of the catalytic bed but not covering it totally, connected to a pump and radiator(s)&#8230 could carry say half the heat output elsewhere, leading you to double the heater size...


sailingdog said:


> Somehow, I seriously doubt that they can vent all the combustion by products through a 1.5" hose


Modern furnaces of high efficiency have induced draft or pressure venting fans to exhaust combustion gases. The exhaust gases for a condensing furnace are nearly at room temperature and are typically piped with ABS plastic of about 1½ inch diameter for a furnace with capacity of say *75,000* BTU or more. They are often sealed systems with inlet piping to bring in fresh combustion air from outside. Sealed systems are safer. I wouldn't see any difficulty in handling the exhaust gases from a heater of say a tenth of that size with 1½ inch diameter pipe and a properly sized exhaust blower, as the Platinum Cat Heater states it has.

In summary, and I hope this likely too lengthy explanation has been of some value, 

Fuel consumption rate comparison can only be made between heaters of the same rated output, and then only based on 'trusted' figures from the manufacturer.
Manufacturers should provide efficiency figures, based on standard testing, for comparison purposes between brands and sizes of heater.
You personal choice of heater is just that, your personal choice. There's no getting around it!
and lastly, ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* have *in the same compartment as the heater* a battery operated CO detector, check the batteries regularly and change them as needed.


----------



## tankersteve

*Boat heat*

I was wondering about coal as a fuel source. It was mentioned once or twice in the 8+ pages of this thread, but no one really addressed it as a realistic (or not) fuel.

Does it share the problems of wood? It seems it would have higher BTUs per pound vice wood. Obviously, it could be messier. And it may be hard to find in say, the Caribbean, but may be a good alternative in northern Europe.

Anyway, just looking for some thoughts or experiences, and if anyone has pics of a marine coal-stove.

Tankersteve


----------



## WanderingStar

A friend uses a Navigator to burn coal, it works fine and he likes it. But it isn't small, it's a cookstove too.


----------



## Tim R.

I would have to think that diesel is the best all around fuel. Efficient and obtainable anywhere in the world. Why would you want to carry a bucket of coal or wood around? It does not store efficiently and is heavy.

And a heater named "hotspot" I would avoid like the plague!

I believe in being comfortable. Living aboard in Maine is a pleasure with our Diesel hydronic heater. I can go almost all winter on our tankage(210 gal) and it warms the entire boat(by zone) evenly. And it also can provide engine pre-heating and on-demand HW.


----------



## tankersteve

So no signficant advantages over wood? Seems like it might store better/smaller and have better heat, as well as being a truly dry heat source. 

Obviously not on par with diesel for ease of use, availability, etc, but perhaps has a role in blending romance of wood with real output.

Tankersteve


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## WanderingStar

A quick search showed that coal has about 40% more btu than wood. While I love the idea of coal and wood stoves, I will keep using propane for cooking. Also for heat if I install it. Small wood stoves are inexpensive to buy, but may not withstand the heat of coal.


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## Tim R.

Wood can bring pests aboard. 

We use electronic candles for the romance factor. They work great in the cockpit enclosure too.


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## Markathishome

Diesel is safe, if it is a Wallas, Webasto or Eberspacher, as they are all enclosed burn. - No diesel smell, no matches, no soot, dry heat inside, no carbon monoxide if you run them overnight with hatches closed - you cannot do this with any other type of heater with hatches closed or overnight. Anything with an open flame is dangerous in a boat because of the multiple explosion risks, carbon monoxide buildup. Even the Dickensen style explodes if not treated right - look hard enough on other forums and you will see stories of explosions and gas poisonings on this type and propane.


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## knotted

Enclosed combustion regardless of type of fuel, is generally safer, and it also requires, as in 'must have', gas tight venting to the outside to safely dispose of combustion gases. Without gas tight venting it is as dangerous as any other type of heating; ALL heating systems must have this. Power venting may be needed, with an interlock to turn off the fuel if the fan stops running.

Diesel fuel is safer because it has a much lower flammability, both as liquid and vapour, than other fuels (except perhaps coal).

Combine these two considerations and you have a relatively safer system. "Relatively safer" because you still have to maintain it leak proof from both fuel and combustion gas. 

As always, make-up air for the air burned in combustion and exhausted with the combustion gas, has to be provided - don't close you boat up airtight, or flames will eventually go out... and you might be suffering from lack of oxygen! (Remember the high school experiment of the candle burning under the inverted drinking glass?)


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## Markathishome

Wise and clear words Knotted. With regard to the combustion air, Wallas at least do two models that duct this from outside, and you can chose to bring circulation air from outside.


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## Faster

Dickenson's Newport propane 'fireplaces' have a fully sealed combustion chamber (provided you close the gasketed door once lit) and draw combustion air down a double flue. They are T/C protected and offer a safe, much less expensive/easier install than forced air systems.

They are not as effective as ducted forced air, but they are a less costly, equally safe option.


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## Markathishome

The Dickensen type Vs the forced air diesel burners is probably not a clear argument and I guess it is important to weigh up all the differences. The two things that are a clear difference though is that the forced air Wallas/Webasto/Eberspacher have much smaller flues between 1 and 2", and there is no diesel smell. 

The diesel smell is a common comment I get. The other thing that I am increasingly getting is a desire to abandon LPG (Propane) both for the explosion fear and the problem of it's tendency to increase the cabin humidity - in the case of open flame and radiant burners.


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## delite

We have a Dickinson propane "fireplace" and it provides sufficient heat down to about 3C on our C27. I'd prefer a diesel heater but thats probably for the next boat. The only problem I have had is that occasionally the fan will blow the fire out and you need to re-light it. We typically go out for day sails or overnight. If living aboard this would not be my choice of heating system.


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## trlrtrsh

Good Information on this topic. I live on the Calif Delta, and if I plan on extended cruizing I will exit the"Gate" and turn left. Locally here if it's so cold, I bundle up (hate doing that), and have a small electrical heater to take the edge off. My house batteries are 4 group27 deep cycle marine batteries. I plan on solar panals and a wind generator.
All that mostly cures the fear of toxic gas buildup. That brings me to my point, I use propane on deck for the BBQ, so no prob there. In the Galley, I use CNG. It was on the boat when I purchased her. I did some research, and it seems to be the safest of fuels (lighter than air), and was just wondering if anyone has researched this for a heater/fake fireplace.


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## wooden

Hi for what its worth I have a small Morso coal stove its great, you can store the coal anywhere,wet does not bother it and if you burn anthracite its clean and long burning and safe. also the stove will burn wood if you want.


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## JVallely

I see a lot of advantages in coal over wood. Note the 2 just mentioned--more heat per unit, so easier storage and less weight, and no bugs.
Coal burns cleaner and safer--less ash and no creosote, so not the risk of chimney fires. That last point is a huge plus.
Coal doesn't need to be stored for months to dry. Unseasoned wood will not produce nearly as much heat as seasoned wood.
You don't have to cut/split it to a size that fits your stove. Most wood you buy or scrounge won't fit as you find it. Also, most scrap or drift wood you find is apt to be old lumber, and coniferous, so less dense and less efficient than hardwood.
I've been burning wood for heat for years. There are good reasons why everybody switched to coal as soon as it became widely available hundred and fifty years ago. I'd switch in a minute if I didn't have lots of trees and a good chainsaw.
And I have neither trees nor a chainsaw on my boat.
JV


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## wooden

Here a picture of my coal stove on the boat, you can get smaller ones.


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## WanderingStar

Sweet!


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## VallelyJ

That's a nice stove, Wooden. How big is your boat?
I've thought lately that I'd like to find a small--very small--anthracite-burning stove for my 33-footer. Propane is expensive and inefficient, and a diesel heater needs too long a flue. I like solid fuel and hot cast iron, but I really can't see using wood for serious, cold-weather heating on a boat.
Your Morso wouldn't fit, though. And the small iron stoves that are available for boats are made for charcoal or wood. Coal burns much hotter and supposedly the fire boxes will burn out.
Sardines are neat-looking but like the others, they warn against using coal. Fatscos are interesting, but largely stainless steel and I don't think they have coal grates. Stonehorses used to come with a small flower pot-shaped stove made by a defunct foundary in Maine, and they were said to burn coal. Anyone know if used ones are available anyplace? Or of another tiny coal-burner?
John V.


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## wooden

Hi Thank you for the comments on the stove my boat is 54ft wooden sail yacht, I am from the UK coal is commonly used to heat boats there so I am used to using it, take a look at a UK company called, Davey and co london, I used to be a supplier for them they make just the stove you are looking for, and have a distributor in the USA as far as I know. let me know if I can help further.


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## catandahalf

*i'd use diesel.. Wallas is awesome!*

I bought my boat with propane installed - it was all about 30 years old so when I replaced it I decided to look for the best I could afford... my 31' trimaran 'Ceil' has a yanmar diesel so I decided this was a better option than keeping the propane.
I decided on a Wallas diesel stove/heater unit. This unit is the size of a laptop (it mounts in a counter top - so it won't work on a bulkhead... but they do make a heater/only that does... and works so well it's kinda hard to believe. It came with a 2 gal daytank (actually it's closer to a 5 day tank) but I can plumb it into my main tank if needed.

Why this unit?
1. There is NO DIESEL SMELL!! period.
2. it's diesel but exhausts outside using a flexible insulated tube (needs to be permanent through hull -it's not a temp exhaust hose.. - so it was easy to thread it to where it needed to go. The exhaust hose only warms up the cabinet it goes through - no fire danger. I have a trimaran so I exhausted just under the port wing. 
3. It is electronically controlled (I even installed a cabin thermostat and timer with mine which i designed - but they now sell one)
4. The wallas is a stove top (glass panel which is large enough when opened for a two qt pot and a frying pan).
5. When the stove is lit (automatic) and the top closed the unit has a fan that comes on and changes it into a space heater. The closed lid also completely insulates the cooking surface so you can put anything on the lid and it will not even get warm. When cooking the lid is open and functions as a back sptwolash for the stove. The stove and heater are lit and controlled with a switch and knob. No lighting anything - ever. No open flames at all.
6. because it's exhausted outside the unit DRYS OUT THE CABIN AIR!! This really is important if you sail in humid climes or when it's so cold that even your breath wets surfaces in the cabin leading to mildew.
7. It is not quite silent because it has a fan for the space heating part but it's pretty quiet.
8. When used as a cooktop it has 'pot holders' that keep things from sliding off the tempered glass cooktop.
9. it heats up a pot to boiling in about 5 minutes.

As for the comment that using propane for cooking/heating saves fuel for the engine... diesel has far more energy per lb than propane (or gas for that matter) and far less fire issues.. You have to carry propane tanks along with the propane gas (i tried carrying the propane in a baggy but it didn't work too well ;-0 ) so you are putting more lbs and square footage (taking up space) in the boat (i have a trimaran so weight is important) and more complexity. I'd rather put an aux diesel tank in and then I'd actually have MORE fuel for the engine in a bind (i'd just have to run the stove/heater less).

FYI the service dept for the wallas is great too. They answered questions and shipped parts when asked very quickly. That makes my $0.25 worth... good luck with your choice!


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## ron_hudson

*Drain valve I think*

I have TSL17 heating system and the drain(?) valve is broken .I have attached a photo of it.Any ideas what is called and an online source where I can buy one?

Thanks


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## Faster

ron_hudson said:


> I have TSL17 heating system and the drain(?) valve is broken .I have attached a photo of it.Any ideas what is called and an online source where I can buy one?
> 
> Thanks


Looks like a standard radiator draincock to me... should be readily available, the rest of the fittings look like standard NPT.. look for something like this (but maybe in brass or bronze if available)

Edelmann 313800 - Drain Cock | O'Reilly Auto Parts


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## ron_hudson

great... thank you.. isn't the internet wonderful


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## CrazyRu

VallelyJ said:


> Fatscos are interesting, but largely stainless steel and I don't think they have coal grates.
> John V.


I'm sitting next to my Fatsco, burning hot. It is my second winter in water. I use charcoals, I just can not find a reliable source of anthracite. Anyway, the stove have an inner iron insert and an iron grate. Yes, it is assembled using stainless steel parts, however the inner lay of the stove is iron. I would't hesitate to use a coal in it.


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## b40Ibis

WE have a solid fuel 'shipmate' bulkhead mounted stove. This thing came w/the boat as we bought her last year. I have had maybe 5-6 fires in the thing so far. Burning charcoal. Lighting the fire with knot lighter. Great heat and heats the boat, but must be tended to every couple hours. Messy, yes, as far as ashes. Basically when there is a fire going someone has to tend to it, just like sailing, the boat doesn't sail itself. 
Oh, And another thing about solid fuel, at start up the whole cabin can fill w/smoke until sufficient draft by the heat of the fire will suk it out!


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## JVallely

CR--thanks for the post re your Fatsco stove.
I'm curious--about how quickly does it go through charcoal, or about how long does a charge last?
JV


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## JVallely

b40Ibis--you might try burning a wad of newspaper on top of the fuel immediately before you light the charcoal.
Burning the paper first puts a quick shot of heat up the flue, initiating a draft. Then when you light your charcoal, more of the smoke is likely to be drawn up the warm flue. Experiment with the amount of newspaper you need--a couple pages starts the draft up my woodstove chimney at home. Smokes something wicked otherwise, if I just light the tinder first.
John


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## CrazyRu

JV, 14 lb bag lasts about 2 days of keeping stove running all the time. I work and I have some shore based social life, I spent only 3 nights on board so I rarely have a stove running 24 hours. One load burns for about 2-3 hours. I didn't have any additional weatherproofing or insulation on my boat. The boat has cored hull. The stove keeps boat comfortable when temperature outside is above 40 degrees F, tolerable at above 30. In really cold days only area immediately adjacent to stove is worm.
The stove is very small. If I was searching for a stove again, I'd get something bigger with ability to burn wood.


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## JVallely

Thanks for that info, CR.
I'm in upstate NY/New England and want to prep for local temps, which can get to around 30 or less. I've always heated my house with wood, all or part, and like using solid fuel. But on a boat, obviously fuel storage space, stove size and burn-time weigh differently than in a house.
The problem I could foresee with wood on a boat is that pound-for-pound, small pieces will burn a lot quicker than large ones. So a given volume of it won't last as long. And you still have to break big pieces up into stove-size. And species matters a lot. I can tell the difference in my woodstove output between dense hickory or oak, or less dense elm or birch or pine.
That's why hard coal appeals to me.
John


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## CrazyRu

John, are you going to live aboard? If so, I'd invest in diesel/kerosene burner. The are so much more convenient and cleaner to use. If you are going to spend just a few days through out a year on board then my Tiny Tot is pretty much adequate. Anyway, I'm moored on Staten Island, NY, if you want to check my stove you are welcome to visit me, just be ready for some hard core action - I paddle inflatable canoe to get to the boat. Today my boat was covered in ice.
Outside of boat market there are plenty of cheap liquid fuel heaters, there are some totally universal, burning about anything, including solid fuel, just search for military tent heaters. All of them can be adopted for boat use at surplus prices. just an idea.


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## MedSailor

CrazyRu said:


> JV, 14 lb bag lasts about 2 days of keeping stove running all the time. I work and I have some shore based social life, I spent only 3 nights on board so I rarely have a stove running 24 hours. One load burns for about 2-3 hours. I didn't have any additional weatherproofing or insulation on my boat. The boat has cored hull. The stove keeps boat comfortable when temperature outside is above 40 degrees F, tolerable at above 30. In really cold days only area immediately adjacent to stove is worm.
> The stove is very small. If I was searching for a stove again, I'd get something bigger with ability to burn wood.


Have you tried the 2 or 3 hour "Firelogs"? I found that when cut into smaller pieces to fit in the stove, they were easy to light, provided consistent heat at about the right level for a small boat. Not to hot, not to cold and require zero tending. They also store well since they're impregnated with wax, they aren't bothered by the damp/wet conditions on a boat. I used to store mine in the bilge.

Another nice thing is that as long as they are not SPLIT lengthwise they burn for the listed amount of time. If you've got space in your stove you can alter the temperature output by choosing how long of a piece you cut. ie 1/3 of a 2hr log and 1/2 of a 2hr log will both burn 2 hrs but one will be hotter than the other.

If you haven't tried them, give them a shot. I used them for years with great results. The 2hr variety might be easier to fit into the top/loading Tiny Tot stove. They even make ones out of compressed, used coffee grounds for those sensitive to parafin wax or wanting to be more environmental.


















MedSailor


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## CrazyRu

Hi, MedSailor. I didn't try java-logs yet, I have fire logs on board. I normally use them in sort of emergency, in case i need fire and heat fast. Somehow I don't like that first woof of stink out of those artificial logs.
Natural charcoals, you know, that chanks of charred wood work best, however they are messiest ones.
I guess I sounded sort of negative in my previous post. I'm not. I like my stove and it is pretty worm here now with smelly chunks of fatwood smoldering on top of charcoals and salmon stew brewing on my kerosine cooker.


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## JVallely

CR--Thanks for the invitation. If I'm ever down that way I may take you up on it. I'm in Cohoes, on the hard for the winter. I want to outfit my Alajuela 33 for longer-term cruising. I considered keeping it in the water in the NYC/NJ area this winter but for domestic commitments.
Deisel appeals to me, although Dickenson/SIG heaters require a longer flue than I want to use. I'm more tempted by propane, in spite of its various disadvantages. But I'm used to burning wood so the right solid fuel stove would appeal to me if I didn't have to tend it constantly.
Thanks for the lead on tent heaters. I'll follow it up.
John


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## mtboat

Long thread. I did see a couple of questions that I might like to respond to. I have been living on this boat (24 ft) since the day I got it 4 years ago. I have a medium sized wood stove in the quarter birth area just forward of the cockpit bulkhead. Too much ice, or too low water, either way I sit on my buddies property for the winter.. The stove is 1 ft around and 2 ft deep,flat on top for pans. I use approximately 3 cords of wood for winter.Winter is 5 months. Wood cost here is 125- 150 dollars a cord. Half a cord a month. Cord of stacked wood is 4x4x8 ft. That is the expense part. However we are surrounded by woods, so can be much cheaper if you go get it.(fun) Now, their are lots of good aspects to wood, but here are some negatives. The pile of bark and wood chips on the floor. The 1 gallon bucket of ash, per day (can't just dump it anywhere). Every single thing I own smells like a campfire. The splitting and chipping away at pieces to get just the right size in there, to fill it enough to last over night. On the matter of size and space, I don't see how those little stoves would ever hold a fire over night, so I do give up the space of a compact refrigerator, to have a bigger stove. 
Different woods have different btu's, say between larch and doug fir, or lodgepole.
One of those store bought bundles would last me about a day and a half. The space required to store 3 cords of wood .The constsant shuffle of wood into the boat.
It was all good, anchoring out for three seasons, I didn't have to haul that much wood to the boat. However last season I was in a slip, and used electric on cold days, because I figure nobody with a nice boat wants a spark spittin',stinkpot right next to them. Can't have the main on the boom, for fear of sparks and smoke.
Just polite not to use it in the marina.
Lastly I have a 5 inch hole in the deck. 3 inch pipe needs a five inch hole and a sleeve of double wall to keep it from catching fire. When under way I remove the stove pipe and rotate a little cover and wing nut to close the hole.
All said, I will all ways have wood. Cookin' a burger on it right now


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## Maine Sail

Interesting story about wood. A classic boat owner had a friend replace all the canvas on his boat. He spent over $6000.00 dollars to get it just right. The job was beautiful and fit the lines and feel of the boat just perfectly. 

In October of that same season it got a little chilly on a windy & cold Maine weekend. The owner fired up his trusty wood burning stove and proceeded to melt a number of holes in his brand new canvas with sparks. The smoke pipes on boats are short and often there is no spark screen, which there should be, as a result he ruined about 3k worth of new canvas... Please be careful with wood, charcoal etc.! I have also seen a sooty diesel fired heater soot up a brand new sail and essentially aesthetically ruin it..


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## JVallely

The thread seems to get longer in the winter.
Three cords is a lot of wood. Around here (northeast) the rule of thumb is 5 cords to heat a house over the winter in an airtight stove. That assumes deciduous wood, and it sounds like you're in the northwest where there's more conifer and that probably explains the quantity you have to go through.
Can't you just dump the wood ash overboard? I dump mine in the gardens and flowerbeds. Good source of potassium.
I've heated houses with it for 30+ years, but I've always had room to swing a maul and run a chainsaw. Wouldn't want to do it on a foredeck.
The point about hot sparks is a good one. A screen of galvanized hardware cloth should help. And watch out for chimney fires--keep the flue clean.
John V.


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## mtboat

Ya. The ash can go on the ground here, but I was thinking of some ,folks in the water that would have to haul it from marinas. This year it has been warm so not so much wood. Splitting wood on the deck? ha no. 
Stove pipe must be poked clean every two days. I tried various spark arresting
Screens and rain caps, and they all just plug up with creosote in two days, then I really get smoked ! I love the wood. It is a totally dry heat and I get no condensation. But, someday I hope to live some where warm again. 
cough,cough.


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## JVallely

That's a lot of creosote. Have you considered insulating your flue? The hotter it is, the less combustion gas condenses inside it.
JV


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## mtboat

On a regular house sized pipe it would not be so bad but this is a 3 inch pipe. Not a bad problem....I run a plumbers snake through the top end every other day and it all falls back in the stove.
Might be the type of wood. Our western larch burns hot so less creosote, but the fir and pines seem to have a lot.


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## WanderingStar

I've often wondered about the heat and sparks from the stack. Two years ago I sailed in a cold October rain on a classic boat (W Warner's "Mary Loring"). The owner lit up his coal stove. When I asked him about damaging the main, he told me to put my hand above the stack. The flow was warm, but not hot. I don't know if that was the stove, the stack, the fuel, or all of the above.


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## JVallely

You're staying on top of it, then. I've seen 2 chimney fires, and they're pretty scary. They were like a 6 or 8 foot blowtorch spitting burning embers all over the roof and threatenning to blow apart the pipe joints. The second one, I had a chimney flare on hand. Put it out in seconds.
But I don't know if I'd want to use one on a boat. They work by producing massive quantities of smoke that displaces the oxygen in the flue. Probably make a real mess in a marina. You'd want one the size of a birthday candle.
I don't know if coal sends burning sparks up a flue the way wood can. I know hard coal burns hotter than wood does, but I don't believe the chemistry is the same. Pitch pockets in wood can burst and expell burning embers. Coal doesn't coat the flue with flamable creosote, either.
JV


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## Waltthesalt

I use a wood stove I got at a boat flea market. Propane's got explosive concerns. Kerosene probably less mess. I use charcoal and have plenty of room for it for what my need. Pellets might also work, cheap and compact. You've got to shovel out the ash.


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## Brent Swain

I have used oil before, but when I got frozen in a great anchorage with lots of oysters,venison , grouse and cod , etc. I had to keep going back for more diesel. So I converted it to wood , and lived happily ever after. 
I have several wood stoves to build here, for people who are getting nervous about the cost of oil. One couple I know, living on an Ericson 37 spend $280 a month on diesel in winter, more than my total cost of cruising. It takes me 15 minutes to gather a weeks supply and gathering it is far more pleasant than going to work to pay for diesel. Wood won't overflow and flow thru your cabin. You can put an airtight stove out by simply closing the air intake. You can put a wood fire out with water.
When I was building my first boat, I was laughed at and ridiculed for saying I was using a wood stove, and not diesel. 6 years later, out of 6 boats anchored in Montague Harbour, four had wood stoves. Now the majority of full time BC cruisers I know use wood stoves, most having given up on oil. In the city , wood can be hard to find, but outside the city you are surrounded by it, in BC. . 
It is very important that any wood stove you have has a big enough firebox and is airtight, so you can control the burn rate. Mine has ran for up to 14 hours burning time on a single load of wood. Of course when I get up in the night to use the head, I try stuff a few more sticks in the stove. 
Stove pipe should be as straight as possible,to facilitate cleaning. Better to run them at an angle if needed, rather than use elbows.Best if you can run a pole down them, straight into the firebox. The best stove pipe here in BC is the four inch stainless tubing , available in scrapyards for under $2 a pound , from the pulp mills. 
I put mine in the back corner of the wheelhouse, so I could put my stovepipe in the stern. This way there is no chance of downdraft from sails , no chance of burning a hole in a sail dropped on it, and no chance of smoke in my face when anchored.
Another option is by your mast, so the stove pipe is among the shrouds. An outside air intake eliminates down drafts. 
The best heat shields I've found are aluminium sheet with an inch of fibreglass house insulation behind them . Aluminium dissipates the heat rapidly so there are no hot spots. The bigger the sheet the lower the temperature i
I pile my firewood in the cockpit in winter. Building supplies have plenty of free tarps used to cover lumber piles, which you can use as disposables to cover your firewood, altho a bit of rain on it doesn't hurt much. .


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## WanderingStar

Thank you, very informative.


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## -OvO-

wood has bugs. Sometimes those bugs like to eat wood. Generally you should keep your woodpile at a good distance from your wood structures. Coal, otoh, doesn't have bugs. Pelletized fuel is pretty-much bug free as delivered, not sure how well it resists infestation.


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## Brent Swain

Never seen a bug problem in 40 years of wood burning.
With my stainless chimney, I use a chimney fire to clean it sometimes.I pour diesel down ,open the door and stick a piece of toilet paper in the pipe, soaked in laquer thinner to get it started. Can be hard to start sometimes ,takes several tries.
When it gets going, it burns like a blowtorch. I quench the pipe down with water on the outside, until the fire goes out.

If you wake up in the middle of the night, and your boat feels like a sauna, it means your stove is full of nothing but coals, and is about to go out if you don't get up and stuff some more wood in.If you don't get up , things will begin to get very cold in the next hour. Stuffing more wood in will drop the temperature of the stove and cabin , by absorbing the heat, but the stove will then probably keep burning till noon. 

Grates are for coal, wood burns best in its own ashes. An old steam tug operator said that when he took the grates out of his boilers ,his firewood consumption dropped by 30%
Cast iron cook stoves have grates ,which makes the firebox extremely tiny and short burning.
Friends have thrown out the grates, and built an airtight firebox liner for such stoves , doubling the size of the firebox and making the burn rate controllable.
A plastic squeeze bottle of diesel makes good "West Coast Kindling."
A splitting maul for splitting wood is far easier to use than an axe.
A cheap Cambodian Tire 15 inch chainsaw makes gathering beach wood extremely easy and quick. They only last three years, but you definitely get your money's worth in that time, then buy another cheapie.
Don't pack armloads of firewood over piles of beach logs. Airmail ( toss) it over them, one piece at a time, then gather them up later on the flatter ,safer, more easily accessible beach.


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## Capt Len

My little home made wood stove;no grates, lined with fire brick and completely air tightable will run all night on a load of hard wood pallet chunks. Gold plated glass door makes for great ambiance .Only cost is the occasional carbide blade in the skill saw when I don't get between the nails.


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## dennisonberwick

*Thoughts on 12 months with a woodstove*

After 12 months with a Sardine woodstove aboard my 32-foot Tahitiana "Kuan Yin" I wrote a fairly lengthly appraisal of the stove and how I was using it - types of firewood, cleaning etc.

Read it here: Wood stove on a sailboat - comments and suggestions after one year | Serendipities Of A Nomad's Life










Comments and feedback about other people's experiences welcome.

Dennison


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## MedSailor

Thanks for taking the time to contribute this. 

Welcome to SailNet!

MedSailor


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## Brent Swain

$2,000 sounds like a hell of a high price, for a stove which wont run all night. I recently built an airtight, all stainless wood stove for a friend for under $500
How long does yours run on a load of wood?
I find that in above freezing temperatures , I sleep better with the stove off. In below freezing temperatures, I wouldn't want to be with a very expensive stove which wont run all night. Been there, done that. Seems like a bad dream I once had.The difference in switching to an adequate sized, airtight stove was huge. Tiny, decorative stoves are for masochists.
After welding up all kinds of scrapers for getting the creosote out of my stove pipe , all of which were inclined to jam, and none of which worked very well , I devised the BS Chimney Flail. I welded the middle of an 8 inch length of chain to a steel rod. I put the chain end down the stove pipe and put my electric drill on the other end. When I fired up the drill, the chain flailed the creosote off very quickly. I kept the chain inside the stovepipe while it was spinning, for safety. Tire chains have hardened steel bits welded on which would be even more effective. I may cut up some old files I have and weld them on. Unlike other scrapers, when I stop the drill the chain goes limp, eliminating any chance of jamming.
Computer timed out and library closed before I could finish this yesterday. I was surprised any of it posted.


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## ColombiaSail

My vote would be for diesel. I have been working the last few years on commercial fishing boats ranging from 10 tons to 80 tons and unless you have a 120kw genset to run electric heaters like the ladder the only form of heater up there was a diesel one. As well as working up there I spend my vacation time on my sailboat down south which has a force 10 propane heater on it. It sucks up 1lb per hour which destroys my lil 2 gallon tank rather quickly. My current employer leaves their diesel heater/stove on 24/7/365 days a year to combat the winter effects alaska can have on boats along with mildew and mold created in the summer. This being said he does not have to worry about the explosive capacity that propane does. This system has about a 17 gallon tank we fill twice a month. The unit is a stove, oven, heater combination which I am guessing uses more than just the wall mounted heater. One thing I would warn about is if you run it too cool the injector or what have you will clog up with un-burnt fuel particulates. Because it has it has an auxiliary tank and because of the simplicity of the combustion system this allows you to run fuel that you have newly discovered to be "bad" whether it be the crud that manifests in old tanks or whatever. These are my experiences. As others said before the type of heater depends on the type of sailing being done, but if it were me and I was planning on going on trips away from a dock any longer than three days then I would opt for the diesel.


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## Bill-Rangatira

Propane onboard is a scary prospect propane is heavier than air so it will sit in your bilge 
good way to turn a fixed asset into a liquid asset in a hurry
one fuel source you didn't lest was coal (anthracite) boiler nuts are an extremely dense fuel source so one or two would burn for a few hours the biggest downside being they burn verrry hot ie will mel a light weight steel woodstove small cast stoves are much better option and they hold the heat longer 
William White
SV Rangatira
1974 Discovery 32


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## Brent Swain

Commercial fishboats go thru big bucks , so diesel is the solution there, where there is lots of money. Not so good for cruisers on a far more limited budget, unless they want to restrict their cruising, and spend most of their time working to pay for the diesel. Wood is free, diesel is very expensive, and getting ever more so. Friends spend $280 a month heating their Ericson 37 with diesel, almost my entire cost of living. .


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## VallelyJ

White74, what stove are you burning anthracite in?
There has been discussion of anthracite in this thread, though most people seem more familiar with wood and charcoal. The currently-made stoves that I'm aware of won't handle coal. Instead the makers tell you to use charcoal or wood, I assume because of hard coal's high burn temperature. My take on that is, it's a BS excuse to make a weaker product--the coal stove isn't exactly new technology.
I can't see trying to heat a small boat in cold really cold weather with wood. To me, a solid fuel stove that won't burn coal is impractical, unless you want to spend half your life sawing up wood and dumping ash.
John V.
Alajuela 33


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## Bilgewater

ColombiaSail said:


> My vote would be for diesel. I have been working the last few years on commercial fishing boats ranging from 10 tons to 80 tons and unless you have a 120kw genset to run electric heaters like the ladder the only form of heater up there was a diesel one. As well as working up there I spend my vacation time on my sailboat down south which has a force 10 propane heater on it. It sucks up 1lb per hour which destroys my lil 2 gallon tank rather quickly. My current employer leaves their diesel heater/stove on 24/7/365 days a year to combat the winter effects alaska can have on boats along with mildew and mold created in the summer. This being said he does not have to worry about the explosive capacity that propane does. *This system has about a 17 gallon tank we fill twice a month. The unit is a stove, oven, heater combination which I am guessing uses more than just the wall mounted heater.* One thing I would warn about is if you run it too cool the injector or what have you will clog up with un-burnt fuel particulates. Because it has it has an auxiliary tank and because of the simplicity of the combustion system this allows you to run fuel that you have newly discovered to be "bad" whether it be the crud that manifests in old tanks or whatever. These are my experiences. As others said before the type of heater depends on the type of sailing being done, but if it were me and I was planning on going on trips away from a dock any longer than three days then I would opt for the diesel.


If I left my bulkhead mounted "Dickinson Alaska Diesel Heater" running 24/7 it would burn 39gals/month on the lowest setting which keeps the boat more than warm enough. Your burning 34 so it seems it burns roughly the same. I run mine from my main tanks with a pulse pump so I'm just going by the fuel consumption info from Dickinson.

And I agree with you, my vote is also for diesel.


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## Brent Swain

Diesel is great, as long as someone else is paying for it, or you would rather be working to pay for it, than cruising full time. 
I've used a wood stove , cruising BC year round ,including some very cold winters, for 40 years. No problems. It takes me 15 minutes to round up a weeks supply off the beach. 
I started with diesel, but gave up on it quickly.


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## Bill-Rangatira

VallelyJ said:


> White74, what stove are you burning anthracite in?
> There has been discussion of anthracite in this thread, though most people seem more familiar with wood and charcoal. The currently-made stoves that I'm aware of won't handle coal. Instead the makers tell you to use charcoal or wood, I assume because of hard coal's high burn temperature. My take on that is, it's a BS excuse to make a weaker product--the coal stove isn't exactly new technology.
> I can't see trying to heat a small boat in cold really cold weather with wood. To me, a solid fuel stove that won't burn coal is impractical, unless you want to spend half your life sawing up wood and dumping ash.
> John V.
> Alajuela 33


I have a home made stove using boiler nuts aka anthracite 
the design is heavy cast sewer pipe with air intake on the bottom and chimney on the top I lined the firebox with a fire brick insert and high heat mortar 
the fuel is fed from the top and a clean-out on the bottom 
the grate is 2 sewer grate one fixed one movable to allow for shaking clinkers out
all parts are cast iron

downsides: 
no window to watch the pretty flames 
all connections are flanges with nut and bolt ( gasket )
long burn time and start up time
weight of stove is heavier than steel models
fuel cost and availability

upsides:
lot of heat
small fuel storage
hot water built in
intake air supply is from outside

burn rate is controlled by butterfly in fresh air intake pipe
my chimney is wrapped in copper tubing for water heating going in and out to water tank using natural convection and heat shield with 2" space around whole unit
if you had the inclination the whole thing could be made up at your local foundry 
If anyone wants to see design plans i could send them just pm me


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## WanderingStar

Very interesting. How big is it?


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## Capt Len

I've still got the big Dickenson range in the galley and have used it for really cold and convenience several times in the last few years. What really gets used is the wood heater. and the Panasonic convection/microwave oven.All bases are covered at little operating cost. When things get bad I can convert Dicky to wood too. Up da Coast.


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## MedSailor

Capt Len said:


> I've still got the big Dickenson range in the galley and have used it for really cold and convenience several times in the last few years. What really gets used is the wood heater. and the Panasonic convection/microwave oven.All bases are covered at little operating cost. When things get bad I can convert Dicky to wood too. Up da Coast.


One tip that may come in handy one day if you're short on diesel. You can stick wood in the burning chamber and burn it instead of diesel. You'll have to clean out the fuel inlet at the bottom of the burning chamber afterwords but it IS ready to use with wood without any modification. If your dickenson has a fan to assist diesel combustion in the burning chamber like mine did, it REALLY gets the wood going. My stack started glowing cherry red until I turned off the fan. 

MedSailor


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## VallelyJ

> I have a home made stove using boiler nuts aka anthracite
> the design is heavy cast sewer pipe with air intake on the bottom and chimney on the top I lined the firebox with a fire brick insert and high heat mortar
> the fuel is fed from the top and a clean-out on the bottom
> the grate is 2 sewer grate one fixed one movable to allow for shaking clinkers out
> all parts are cast iron


Wow--That's quite a shop project. You just bolted the whole thing together?
The more I've thought and read about it, the more I like the idea of anthracite.
Been looking for a cheap used Fatsco, figuring that if it can't handle the high temps, I won't be out much, and I can always use it for wood or charcoal, in spite of my misgivings about the efficiency.


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## Bill-Rangatira

VallelyJ said:


> Wow--That's quite a shop project. You just bolted the whole thing together?
> The more I've thought and read about it, the more I like the idea of anthracite.
> Been looking for a cheap used Fatsco, figuring that if it can't handle the high temps, I won't be out much, and I can always use it for wood or charcoal, in spite of my misgivings about the efficiency.


yes its all bolted with stove seal cord for gaskets 
the fuel tube is a 3" flange y joint one side goes to chimney pipe
the fuel box is 12" long x 12" diam ductile iron pipe w/flange both ends lined with 2" fire brick and clay / sand / water mix 
the bottom has a t joint 
grates for clean-out and air intake 
it takes about 20 minutes to light and burns for hours on one load of coal
heats a large boat 40+ to comfortable temp about 1 hr
the taller the chimney the better
William White 
SV Rangatira
1974 Discovery 32 Sloop


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## Brent Swain

Coal costs , wood is free. I have to find coal and transport it long distances. Wood is 100 feet away, dingy rowing distance. Any time I run out , I can row 100 feet and get more, a weeks supply in 15 minutes. . .


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## Bilgewater

MedSailor said:


> One tip that may come in handy one day if you're short on diesel. You can stick wood in the burning chamber and burn it instead of diesel. You'll have to clean out the fuel inlet at the bottom of the burning chamber afterwords but it IS ready to use with wood without any modification. If your dickenson has a fan to assist diesel combustion in the burning chamber like mine did, it REALLY gets the wood going. My stack started glowing cherry red until I turned off the fan.
> 
> MedSailor


That's a good tip Med and one I have never even considered. I suppose you could cover the fuel inlet with a SS shot glass or something like that. Although after wood, it will need a good cleaning anyway.


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## MedSailor

seayalatermoonglow said:


> That's a good tip Med and one I have never even considered. I suppose you could cover the fuel inlet with a SS shot glass or something like that. Although after wood, it will need a good cleaning anyway.


Glad you liked the tip. It acutally worked spectacularly well with no modification at all. You can also use the carburetor on the stove to supply a few TBSP of diesel then turn it OFF and use that little puddle of diesel to start your logs ablaze (with or without fan). Who needs kindling! 

Since it worked so famously I designed (but never installed) a three way "T" valve at the bottom of the carburetor instead of just the 90deg elbow. It would allow you to flush a small amount of diesel down by gravity to flush out the remaining ash. Covering up the hole would be better though I think.

The ash was never really a problem though. If I recall the hole at the bottom of the drip pot was something like 3/4" diameter and the diesel only needs to seep through that wide opening so obstructions don't affect it much. Besides the diesel itself usually produces heaps of soot and that never bothered the drip pot.

MedSailor


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## Capt Len

Med ..Good to know it can be done.I had imaged a welded fire box with fire brick like in my wood heater. Cutting the bits up so small for the existing fire bowl would warm you to the point you don't need to burn them .I thought of taking up some of the oven volume and a single turn of copper pipe on the top of the remaining oven for hot water. As for cleaning, nothing beats diesel soot for messy. Wood ash every time .Oh did we mention odour de fuel?


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## MedSailor

Capt Len said:


> Med ..Good to know it can be done.I had imaged a welded fire box with fire brick like in my wood heater. Cutting the bits up so small for the existing fire bowl would warm you to the point you don't need to burn them .I thought of taking up some of the oven volume and a single turn of copper pipe on the top of the remaining oven for hot water. As for cleaning, nothing beats diesel soot for messy. Wood ash every time .Oh did we mention odour de fuel?


Want to heat your hot water tank using your Dickinson stove? The engineering has already been done. This puppy fits right in the combustion chamber of the stove. Plumbs out the back:

Sure Marine Service, Inc. * Since 1972 * Marine Heating, Air Conditioning, and Galley Equipment









SureMarine by the way is an absolute CLASS ACT of a shop. I used to live a few blocks from them. They're great and they've forgotten more about diesel, propane and other forms of heat than the rest of us will ever learn.

MedSailor

PS Which stove do you have? I might still have the 2 turn coil that I never installed still laying around in the "things I can't throw away" pile. PM me if interested, if I still have it, it's not worth much to me.


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## Rockter

I would like to have a wee stove in my ship one day. 
For 20 years now, I have used my Eberspacher. It is a reliable unit, and makes quite a difference on the coldest day.
It is not so good at drying the boat though, and tends to circulate humid air in a wee circle. The windows do build up a lot of condensation.
I understand that a stove is much better at drying the ship. Maybe one day I will fit one. Burning wood can be smoky though and it can make for unpopularity in a crowded anchorage or on the pontoon. An Eberspacher has no such difficulties.

One advantage of the Eberspacher is that you can run the hot ducting under the quarterberth, and when you sleep there you have underbed heating on the coldest night.
.


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## Capt Len

That two turn coil can boil a 15 gal tank over night unless it's dissipated into a rad pipe. I run one both fore and aft .That would be a major retro fit on most boats.And unless it thermosyphons needs a circulating pump and vapour vents if it is a domestic pressure system Helps a lot if the fire box is the lowest part of the hot side and its all up hill to the vapour releasing unit.I'm not so keen on the temporary use of wood in the diesel configuration. Darned hot so close to the carb (at the very least it could melt the shut down plug.) and lines connected to major fuel source. I think I'll continue to heat my coffee in the micro until I go all wood.


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## svmoonstruck

We've had wood and diesel bulkhead heaters.And a couple of free standing diesel heaters over the years. I've seen the horrifying results of a propane bulkhead heater, although I'm sure they are much safer these days. Our last boat had a forced air Webasto. We had trouble free and almost instant heat for ten years with that boat ( Fisher 30) One of the first modifications on this sailboat was another Webasto furnace. Heat, just like at home, with a thermostat! Without taking up cabin space. Very efficient and low cost fuel wise. Tap the main diesel tank with a pickup tube and your set.


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## lannit

Interesting thread! I have a bulkhead mounted stainless steel "Shipmate" stove which came with a 1978 Pearson 323 I recently purchased (and it seems to be made by a company other than the one that produces small cast iron stoves of the same name). It's not clear which solid fuels are appropriate to use in it. It has a fairly small firebox with a beefy cast iron grate and a small, removable ash drawer under it. I have burned 6-8 charcoal briquettes at a time and warmed the cabin quickly from the ambient 40F to 70F with low stack temperatures, but refueling was needed every 45-60 minutes. Does anyone one else have one of these stoves? If so, what solid fuels have you used in it and what do you recommend?


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## Capt Len

Old time 'presto logs' can be broken up into stove size bits. Cleaner than coal type fuel. A fire place log bit can help with start but too much wax for a stove. Prestos used to be .10 apiece but are well over a buck now.smaller too.It's just sawdust squeezed back into wood. Most joinery and moulding shops have a bin of small chunks of ends. (for the asking) They burn fast and bright but we're looking for ambiance.


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## Brent Swain

In cities, construction sites can be a good source of wood, as can building supplies.


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## superiorvoyager

I have had various heat sources in boats. My current Boat has Propane heat which is OK and is as others have mentioned pretty instant. I find it doesn't really take the chill out though as well as my old wood in the last boat. My last boat had a great little wood stove built in the lunenburg foundry in NS. I loved it. It heated the boat wonderfully, took the chill out, and burned little fuel. We could get the fire going with small kindling and then throw on Charcoal and it would stay toasty all night (it was very airtight.) It was also great on a rainy afternoon or evening with the kids. We could open the grate up and have a marshmellow roast.


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## smurphny

I put a wood stove in a big old Wheeler that I lived on years ago. It worked out really well. Wood is very nice for drying things out. It takes more moisture out of the air than other stoves. My sailboat has a kero bulkhead heater that makes smelly fumes if not adjusted just right. It's also a real PITA to light: preheat, etc. and I have one more can of flammable fuel to deal with. With the small amount of btus a boat needs, I vote for wood. You could even buy some of those packaged logs made from processed wood which would probably go a long way. Unless you're living on a boat where it's cold, stove use is minimal. There's also less likelihood of blowing yourself up with wood. Propane on a boat is a scary proposition for ANY appliance.


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## VallelyJ

Smurphy-What make was your wood stove?
John V
Alajuela 33


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## smurphny

It was not a "marine" product. Was a small standard airtight box stove. They have holes in the legs that can be screwed down to the deck. It was ok for a powerboat with a large cabin but doubt one would work on a sailboat too well unless some additional bracing could be designed. Maybe some kind of solid base instead of the cast iron legs which I wouldn't trust with the boat heeled over.


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## wind_magic

smurphny said:


> It was not a "marine" product. Was a small standard airtight box stove. They have holes in the legs that can be screwed down to the deck. It was ok for a powerboat with a large cabin but doubt one would work on a sailboat too well unless some additional bracing could be designed. Maybe some kind of solid base instead of the cast iron legs which I wouldn't trust with the boat heeled over.


I also have a basic wood stove, and I agree, the legs have to be replaced so that it can be bolted down, but otherwise no modifications need to be made in my experience.

I love the wood stove. Diesel stoves might be good too, because hey, the boat always has to have some diesel, but other fuels in my opinion are too much trouble. It doesn't seem like that big of a thing to make sure you have fuels on board, but it is so nice to simply be able to gather up some sticks off of the ground, break them with your foot or cut them up, and burn them in a wood stove to stay warm. There is just something about it that I don't think fuel stoves can ever replace. The stove is warm, fuel is plentiful, free, and even collecting the wood is a fun and healthy activity.


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## Capt Len

When I make a wood stove (welded steel box) I weld 5/8 or 3/4 steel nuts to the bottom corners. to receive threaded rods These hold it secure at chosen height with adjustable nuts and lock washers .Could do the back for bulkhead mount thru the wall. Just be sure of insulation and air gap as they get So hot.


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## smurphny

Capt Len said:


> When I make a wood stove (welded steel box) I weld 5/8 or 3/4 steel nuts to the bottom corners. to receive threaded rods These hold it secure at chosen height with adjustable nuts and lock washers .Could do the back for bulkhead mount thru the wall. Just be sure of insulation and air gap as they get So hot.


Len, have you ever welded up s.s. to make a stove? I wonder how 304 s.s. would hold up to wood fires? I have a (steel plate) Lopi here at home and heat 95% with wood. Welding up a little s.s. stove to replace the kero stinker on the boat sounds like a good project.


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## Capt Len

No experience with stainless.My guess is it discolors and warps.when it gets hot, doesn't transfer heat well, hard to cut shape or bend and even scraps cost.Mild steel cuts,welds and drills easily Occasional stove black make it look new. Nothing more annoying than a too small stove .What,OUT again? The door and venting hardest engineering so start there Fiber glass rope &tape and stove cement are available so you could even use,,, wait for it,,, stove bolts.I like fire glass doors and tight seal for airtight fit and a soap or other stone plate on top unless making morning coffee needs speed.I keep my eyes peeled at junk yard for iron or brass gee gaws. Example , brass wooden toilet seat hinge parts hold a 3/8 brass rod fiddle around the stove top .Put them on rod before bending Multi layered thin ss panel with cement board washers between bulkhead and hot dissipates heat and acts like hot air pump.( Part of stove?) Larger ss pipe centered on smoke pipe prevents melting rain gear ( open bottom and top)Special attention to deck fitting .I make mine in SS. two pipes and two rings Smaller and longer fits the stove pipe. Bigger holds the cooling water. Deep protects the interior deckhead. Big ring is deck flange. I have pressure hot water so I've not done this but if you plumb cold water in from a galley pump, hot could be directed to come out at sink Justa thought. Cement board (air space)and tiles are heat sink and lookin good.


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## smurphny

I guess s.s. is unnecessary for inside and the stuff *is* wicked expensive. Even the rod is expensive, around $30 a pound. A little stove, about 1/2 the size of a small box stove, made out of mild steel plate would be pretty easy to weld up and would fit right where the kero burner is now. Hmmmm. Another project.


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## wind_magic

smurphny said:


> I guess s.s. is unnecessary for inside and the stuff *is* wicked expensive. Even the rod is expensive, around $30 a pound. A little stove, about 1/2 the size of a small box stove, made out of mild steel plate would be pretty easy to weld up and would fit right where the kero burner is now. Hmmmm. Another project.


I think using fire brick on the inside gives you a lot more options too.


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## Capt Len

If you go to a stove store see how inlet air is handled and door seals.Add the fire brick to inside ,bottom and 3 sides and the outside dimensions approach 12" square. Smaller is cute and less effective. Keep the door sill higher than the coals to prevent burns on the cabin sole .I like preheating air in vertical square tubes (many drilled holes 3/16?) on each side of the door opening. Incoming air keeps the glass soot free.Air control is easy with guillotine siding over large access ports or threaded cap (second choice) Stove black and polished brass trim, tile on hardie board backing(air gap) say ambiance .


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## Brent Swain

I switched to stainless wood stoves back in 1979, after dealing withe constant shedding of rust from my steel one . No complaints. I use 1/8th inch stainless. I've built many for others ,who are very happy with them. No problem with heat transfer, 1/8th inch stainless doesn't keep heat inside. Where can it go? Stainless doesn't stay shiny long, turns matt black , but doesn't rust.


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## smurphny

Thanks Brent. Do you use any kind of liner brick? That 1/8" seems light to be taking the kind of heat a wood fire can produce without something between fire and metal. Am thinking maybe at least 1/4" for the top with some firebrick on the sides/bottom.


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## bvander66

We went with a dickerson diesel fireplace. Propane was considered but we have limited propane and the heater draws a fair bit; easier to fill diesel tank than lug propane tank and get it filled.
We T'd off a fuel line from one of our main tanks, ran the line to a low pressure pump behind the bulkhead from the fireplace, pump is 12VDC as is the draw fan on the heater.
We built our own heat shield from ceramic tile, but SS plate works well too. 
chimney is through the cabin top, advantage with diesel or solid fuel is that the Charlie Noble is removable and hole is filled with a deck plate which resovles issues when offshore or sailing.
Lighting is harder than propane, but not super difficult and takes about 2-3min. Essentially pre heat burn ring while watching and then turn on fuel.
In 5 years of extensive use have never had a soot problem. Lived aboard in NYC and in winter used every day, we vacuumed out burn chamber once a week and same for chimney at end of season.
Dickersen diesel fireplace has a window so the flame is readily visalble and quite attractive.


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## Brent Swain

I set my stove up for fire brick, but never felt the need to use it, nor saw any advantage to carrying the extra weight, in the last 35 years. 1/8th inch stainless is all you need.
Friends, cruising the Gulf Islands in an Ericson 37 use $280 worth of oil a month in winter, almost my entire cost of cruising. My fire wood is free. Takes 15 minutes to round up a weeks supply from the beach. A cheap chainsaw makes it much easier. I get up to 14 hours burning time on a load of wood. I'd much rather be gathering firewood, than working a steady job to pay for oil, etc. Gathering wood is a far more pleasant way to spend time.


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## jboyle

Any suggestions on where to find parts for a Cole Stove model 1655. I need the deck gasket for the flue/chimney.

thanks,

Jim Boyle


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## Brent Swain

I just welded up a wood stove for a friend , who was getting disgusted with paying $200 a month for diesel.


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## smurphny

Brent, what kind of rod have you found best for 316/304 stainless? I've been using Super Missileweld which works really well for stick welding (DC reverse polarity), but is wicked expensive.


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## Lucky dog 2

Would like to see some photos, drawings of what you welded up.


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## JudyM

He All,
Reading this thread and a few others similar topic. I'm wondering if someone can help clarify on propane system install. We've got an existing propane system that surveyor said needs fixing. Right now there are two appliances; stove and hot water heater in the head (and we may want to add a bulkhead salon heater unless we decide to go diesel with that...) Problem is that the PO installed one propane line that has a "t" at the stove to a copper line all the way to the hot water heater in the head. We need one fuel line to each appliance from the fuel source but can we run a hose from tank to the copper line or do we need to rip out all the copper line so we have one single "unbroken" fuel line (ie, hose) to appliance? 

Seems to me code language is vague on this detail;

"A-1.9.5.6 Fuel supply lines shall be continuous lengths of tubing, piping, or hose from the regulating device, solenoid valve, or leak detector to the appliance, or to the flexible section at the appliance."

Thanks,
JudyM


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## MedSailor

JudyM said:


> He All,
> Problem is that the PO installed one propane line that has a "t" at the stove to a copper line all the way to the hot water heater in the head. We need one fuel line to each appliance from the fuel source but can we run a hose from tank to the copper line or do we need to rip out all the copper line so we have one single "unbroken" fuel line (ie, hose) to appliance?
> 
> Seems to me code language is vague on this detail;
> 
> "A-1.9.5.6 Fuel supply lines shall be continuous lengths of tubing, piping, or hose from the regulating device, solenoid valve, or leak detector to the appliance, or to the flexible section at the appliance."
> 
> Thanks,
> JudyM


I had nearly the exact same problem. I had a rubber (neoprene?) propane tubing that ran to the stove and then there was a threaded "T" fitting whereby it split to the cabin heater and the galley stove.

Our surveyor told us that the "T" fitting was a possible leak source and needed to be removed from the cabin. What we did was put the "T" AFTER the solenoid but above the deck level, and then run 2 lengths of tubing, one to the stove and one to the heater. This eliminated the possibility (in theory) of a leak at the "T" fitting below decks.

I agree that the wording is vague. By their wording I would be out of compliance also even though my leaking "T" fitting would be above decks and the propane would flow overboard.

I was under the impression (always dangerous) that brazed copper fittings ARE considered part of an unbroken tube and "T" fittings were allowed with them...

You should call and ask your surveyor for clarification. Whatever your planned fix is, run it by them first for approval. That's part of what you paid them for.

Stay warm!
MedSailor


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## VallelyJ

Odds are that the copper fitting isn't brazed--probably a compression or flare fitting, in which case you don't have a continuous line. If you just run a new rubber hose from the solenoid to the heater you won't have to wonder if a fitting of unknown age or quality is leaking or if the copper has cracked anywhere. You may know that copper hardens where it flexes or vibrates and becomes succeptible to cracking. Rubber hose that's protected from chafe eliminates that worry. I think you'll find you need a seperate solenoid for each appliance, too. Otherwise all the lines get propane in them when you use just one appliance, defeating the purpose of the remote solenoid in the first place.


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## MedSailor

VallelyJ said:


> Odds are that the copper fitting isn't brazed--probably a compression or flare fitting, in which case you don't have a continuous line. If you just run a new rubber hose from the solenoid to the heater you won't have to wonder if a fitting of unknown age or quality is leaking or if the copper has cracked anywhere. You may know that copper hardens where it flexes or vibrates and becomes succeptible to cracking. Rubber hose that's protected from chafe eliminates that worry. I think you'll find you need a seperate solenoid for each appliance, too. Otherwise all the lines get propane in them when you use just one appliance, defeating the purpose of the remote solenoid in the first place.


Why would that defeat the purpose of the remote solenoid? The solenoid is designed to keep the propane off until you are using an appliance and provide an easy avenue to shut off all propane flow to the boat should a leak occur. Should a leak be detected by an alarm, a single solenoid would quickly shut off ALL propane to the boat with the flip of one switch. In an automated system a single solenoid rigged to a sniffer would do the job correctly bu shutting off all propane to the boat if it "sniffed" any propane.

I suppose you could be using one appliance and the other could leak but no matter if the one in use is leaking or the one not in use is leaking the key is detection (by sniffer, alarm or nose) and quickly shutting it off, which a single solenoid would achieve as well or better than multiple separate solenoids would.

MedSailor


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## Brent Swain

smurphny said:


> Brent, what kind of rod have you found best for 316/304 stainless? I've been using Super Missileweld which works really well for stick welding (DC reverse polarity), but is wicked expensive.


Type 308 or 316 SS rod works well. Around $11 a pound


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## Andrew65

Brent Swain said:


> In cities, construction sites can be a good source of wood, as can building supplies.


If you want to get fancy about collecting wood. I collect clean sawdust (without glue and such) and press homemade logs. You take a pvc tube about a foot long drill a lot of small holes in it. Put a removable endcap on it and fit it to a basic squeeze glue gun. Fill it with watered down sawdust with spacers (washers for example) every inch or so, pull the trigger to press out the water, then pop them out. Let them dry for a while and presto homemade logs. You can find the contraption on youtube for a better description than mine, but it is well worth trying to make if you have a lot of sawdust at hand.


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