# Recommendations for live-aboard & beginner boat



## XINI (Feb 27, 2011)

Hi,

in the next few months I want to buy a sailboat ($ 15 -20'000) to partially live aboard (about 3 days a week), do some weekend day cruises (Florida ICW and the Bay) get better in my sailing skills over the next years to get ready for holiday cruises around South Florida, Bahamas, and Caribbean. 

I want a 30 feet boat, and have looked into a Catalina and a Cape Dory Cutter. I found a 1980 Catalina for 20'000 that seems very well equipped for live abord (solar panels, AC, Shower, Refrigerator etc). However, I am very concerned about the performance and safety in bad weather (in particular since I might do a lot of mistakes in the beginning...), and hesitating about the Catalina since many people here say they are not reliable. 

The Cape Dory Cutter (found a 1981 for $22'000) seems very stable and what people call 'forgiving'. I would like to know if most of you agree that this is a good beginner boat that can be handled well even in bad weather conditions. The disadvantage I see is the few storage it offers and some of the missing live-aboard adaptions (I know expenses for boats add up easily).

I would like to get recommendations from some more experienced sailors and live-aboards about these 2 boats or recommendations on other boats that could fit my needs. I read in a threat about the 29 Bayfield, Hunter, and Pearson but havent really looked into them much yet.

Appreciating your help and ideas,

thanks


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Gosh, 30 feet is a small space to live aboard...but your $20k budget definitely limits you in terms of finding something larger. You're also going to be looking at boats with serious functional obsolescence and/or major issues with that price. Something that may be perfectly suitable for dockside living, but will require a good towboatus membership to take sailing fairly often.

I dont know who you're speakin to that says Catalina as a brand is unreliable. I think the reliabiilty is more a function of *AGE*...most anything mechanical immersed in seawater for 30 years is going to have reliability issues....try dunking a toyota in the ocean for a few years and see what you get out 
One thing to remember...other than the fiberglass layup, very little on a boat is really made by the manufacturer...its all parts/components from various vendors...and the reliability of those parts is very much on the owner who has changed, swapped out, upgraded, fixed, or jury rigged various components over 30 years of boat ownership. 

Cape Dory's are very sturdy, bluewater boats...pretty much the opposite of the Catalina in terms of purpose of the design. For what your intent is (learning to sail, coastal sailing, no offshore passagemaking) it may be too spartan in terms of creature comforts and space. 

Now, if your intent is to take your boat offshore or do some serious ocean passagemaking (Hawaii, Fiji, crossing oceans outside of a weather forecast window) then the Cape Dory would be the boat I'd prefer.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The problem is the qualities you are looking for in a liveaboard boat are going to be very different from the qualities you'd want in a bluewater passagemaker. If you're just island hopping, you may not need a true bluewater passagemaker, but might want something a bit better than a regular coastal cruiser. It isn't so much that Catalinas aren't reliable, but that they're not designed as bluewater passage makers. 

The Catalina would be a better liveaboard, since it is going to have far more accommodations than the Cape Dory Cutter. However, the Cape Dory will tend to deal with rough seas and heavy weather better overall. 

I generally recommend you reserve at least 15-20% of the boat buying budget for refitting, upgrading and modifying whatever boat you do buy.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> I generally recommend you reserve at least 15-20% of the boat buying budget for refitting, upgrading and modifying whatever boat you do buy.


I agree with sailingdog on keeping money in reserve for upgrades/maintenance....but I think for a boat that is 30 years old, *the maintenance/upgrade budget should be closer to 40-50% of the purchase price* of the boat. Unless the owner has been *METICULOUS* with maintenance and upgraded key components (standing rigging, furling gear, etc), you will run into heavy expenses on a boat this old.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

NightOwl-- I did say at least 15-20%...

Of course *the key is to buy a good boat at a good price*, and remember that it is usually far less expensive to pay for a boat in good condition than it is to buy the same make/model in poorer shape and refurbish it to the same level. When refurbishing/repairing a boat, you're paying NEW BOAT prices for most of the gear, parts and material you buy, unless you're lucky enough to find it in a consignment shop.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> NightOwl-- I did say at least 15-20%...
> 
> Of course *the key is to buy a good boat at a good price*, and remember that it is usually far less expensive to pay for a boat in good condition than it is to buy the same make/model in poorer shape and refurbish it to the same level. When refurbishing/repairing a boat, you're paying NEW BOAT prices for most of the gear, parts and material you buy, unless you're lucky enough to find it in a consignment shop.


Absolutely true...

The best boat values out there are boats in *CHERRY* condition that someone poured their heart and soul into and did a meticulous job only to have a life event change their boating plan. The 3 dreaded "D"s....death, divorce, disability....


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

night0wl said:


> Gosh, 30 feet is a small space to live CaQUOTE]
> 
> guess it depends on your needs, i find my 30 to be big enough for one, has 6'+ headroom and plenty of cozy spots. i would note, though that i have a conference room at work i can use for some storage, though i find that i really dont go in there much. you wear suits to work or flops? might be a consideration.... maybe spend a day at a marina w/brokerage climbing around different stuff to see what grabs you.
> 
> goodluck


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## XINI (Feb 27, 2011)

Thank you for all these considerations. Both boats seem to me in pretty good conditions, though of course, my knowledge/experience is very limited.

I wonder if it makes otherwise sense to buy a REALLY cheap boat for the live-aboard fun and just buy a real one whenever I am ready to sail a serious cruise. But I am afraid of having to maintain lots of leaks etc... - my experience from having a old car.....
Since I have a real house in Miami, and would take the boat as home to avoid commuting, I dont have to store too much stuff. I will also have a real office, so it will be some clothes and the usual kitchen things. I do wonder, if my stuff will get moldy without an AC int the boat (like clothes).

Can someone tell me also how much I have to calculate for taxes - and do I need an insurance?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you're keeping the boat in a marina, you will likely need at least $300,000 of liability insurance, at a minimum. Whether you want/need other coverage is up to you, but most marinas require that as a minimum. If you have a well-found boat without a leaky cabintop, and it is well-ventilated, then mold isn't much of an issue. Storing clothes in the "vacuum" space saver bags can help a lot with preventing mold as can stowing them in plastic storage bins with packets of dessicant.


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## XINI (Feb 27, 2011)

$300 is that per month or per year?
I would keep her in a private docking place, so I guess I wont require that. But is there a "driving" insurance required, in case I sail into another boat?? (You may laugh now about such a stupid question....).

The vaccuum packers are a great idea, thanks.


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

It looks like you've taken a close look at how you'll actually be using the boat. Often new buyers don't do this and buy more boat than they need or end up using.

Keep a cash reserve for the

Catalina 30 has been the most sucessful boat of its size and appears optimum for the purposes you describe, living on board, relatively easy on new sailors. Pratical Sailor in Feb '08 issue rated it in the top 3 of 70's era used boats (the other two were the Pearson 30 and Tartan 30) You may want to check the article out. 

You can check out boat blue book prices to see when depreciation flattens out. That's usually a good age to buy a boat.

Keep a cash reserve for improvements you'll inevidably make. i.e.electronics are usally hanges at about the 7 year point.

The point about getting a boat that a prior owner(s) have put a lot into s key, essentail. I'd focus on boats that have been upgraded in areas important to you. Aso look to avoid future costs. For example repowering is hugely expensive and lotsa' sweat. If you're looking at an older bst that's importatant. Some 70's era boats developed hull blistering I wouldn't get a boat that has hull blistering also a big expensive job. Also water intrusion into the deck core is a big job to fix. Get a good surveyor. New sails an be a strong plus but if it's a lot of racing sails you may not reaal get too much benefit if your goal is cruising

Finally the great thing about a Catalina 30 is that there's so many of them (6,500 built). Check out the class organization website. Also on sailnet's builders forum. They'll be able to tell you anything you want to know about the boat. You'll probably also have a class organization in your area. They can be a good source to find out what boats are available.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

XINI said:


> $300 is that per month or per year?
> I would keep her in a private docking place, so I guess I wont require that. But is there a "driving" insurance required, in case I sail into another boat?? (You may laugh now about such a stupid question....).
> 
> The vaccuum packers are a great idea, thanks.


There is no REQUIRED insurance, but if you should hit someone else's boat, or heaven forbid have your boat go aground or sink, you'll find the costs of not having insurance very, very pricey. For instance, if your boat sinks, and the fuel spills, you could be on the hook for environmental remediation costs of up to $800,000 from the USCG.


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## XINI (Feb 27, 2011)

Ok, yes I definitely don't wanna end up with such a bill... So insurance for sure. I should probably also calculate annual check-ups? This and the 30% repair fund, will then of course get my level down to a 10-15K $. Thanks for these considerations. 
Does any of you have heard about someone buying boats owned by banks in an auction? I just saw an Ericson 30' 1984 for $10'000 listed for a "foreclosure" selling.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The problem with buying boats at a bank or other auction, is most are sold AS IS, without the ability to get a survey or even view the boat in person. That can mean you can end up with a boat that has an actual negative value.



XINI said:


> Ok, yes I definitely don't wanna end up with such a bill... So insurance for sure. I should probably also calculate annual check-ups? This and the 30% repair fund, will then of course get my level down to a 10-15K $. Thanks for these considerations.
> Does any of you have heard about someone buying boats owned by banks in an auction? I just saw an Ericson 30' 1984 for $10'000 listed for a "foreclosure" selling.


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## urbanhermit (Nov 15, 2010)

if someone wasn't able to make payments, you would think the maintenance was probably substandard as well.


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