# do you carry an acoustic Guitar?



## vikingthunder (Sep 16, 2010)

if so, what do you do to maintain the proper Humidity levels to ensure that it does not swell/shrink and have major issues?


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'd suggest that if you're very concerned about those types of things that you get yourself a less expensive guitar for the boat.

I've never noticed an issue, though we have only kept the guitar on board during the summer months. But I'm not a virtuoso and don't have expensive guitars...


----------



## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Hi, I'm a member here, but my day job is in the music industry.

I work for a company that makes these... Among many other products. Not trying to advertise, but to help out.

Amazon.com: Planet Waves Humidipak Automatic Humidity Control System (For Guitar): Musical [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51XkpKL6G0L

Normally, you'll have to worry about humid conditions. It's best to keep your instrument in a case when you're not playing it, and try to control the environment in the case.

Humidipak will regulate in either direction. However, in dry conditions also use another moisture adding device like a Guitar Humidifier so the pak doesn't dry out.

If its really wet conditions, (above 70% day after day) use a "dried out" humidipak in your case which will absorb moisture.

Again, keeping the guitar in a case when not in use will really help. Also, go to your local shop and learn how to make a truss rod adjustment because the neck will move. It's perfectly normal, I adjust many of my instruments every year to get the action right. It's routine and if you can do basic boat maintenance you can do basic guitar maintenance. Wood moves with trends in humidity...

Finally, consider coated strings to minimize corrosion. This is vital on a boat. My company makes the EXP line of strings but there are others out there as well like Elixir.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. I know Cruisingdad has a guitar on board, perhaps he wants to share his experience.

Good luck, keep playing...!!!

Craig
D'Addario and Co.


----------



## vikingthunder (Sep 16, 2010)

My Guitar came with an Ameritage case with their humidity abatement system, but not sure if it will keep up with the extremes of humidity you get on a boat.

I have used D'addario Phosphor bronze true mediums for awhile now, and love them. I did not like the Elixer strings, they felt like something was on them. Do the D'addario coated strings feel better?

I am comfortable with Truss rod adjustment, as I had to do it when I went up to mediums from lights. Just curious about humidity and weather and their affects on strings and wood.


----------



## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

vikingthunder said:


> My Guitar came with an Ameritage case with their humidity abatement system, but not sure if it will keep up with the extremes of humidity you get on a boat.
> 
> I have used D'addario Phosphor bronze true mediums for awhile now, and love them. I did not like the Elixer strings, they felt like something was on them. Do the D'addario coated strings feel better?
> 
> I am comfortable with Truss rod adjustment, as I had to do it when I went up to mediums from lights. Just curious about humidity and weather and their affects on strings and wood.


Hi VT,
I can't speak to Ameritage's humidity abatement system I'm not familiar with it. (I'm an operations guy really..) I agree with your gut feel that there will be some serious swings of humidity on a boat. Definitely get an "in case hygrometer" so you can keep track. Planet Waves (a division of my company) as well as others make them. There's not a company on earth that will tell you that their humidity control system is bullet proof. A boat is a tough environment for a wooden instrument, but many have done it. It's very important to check your instrument regularly.

I'm glad you like our strings. The EXP line as compared to the Elixir's are generally considered to be more natural sounding and feeling, however both strings are coated and will feel different than the PB Strings (EJ17 perhaps?) that you like. D'Addario coats the wrap wire before winding but uses the same design as what you're used to, while Elixir coats the string after winding. The material properties of the coatings are completely different. Elixir makes a good product, damn good, just different than ours. It's really a preference thing. They sound and feel different.

Happy to answer any more questions to the best of my ability.

Craig
D'Addario and Co.
Avid sailor and player on the water....!


----------



## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

I use EXP's on my electrics. Sadly, they will not go along on the boat. I'll try a set on the acoustics and see how they do.
Not all adjustments are via the truss rod; just as not all twinges in the guitar are not in the neck. Humidity and swelling; or lack of, can cause the top to expand/shrink and arch or pop the bridge. BTDT! 

I even went so far as to look into the composites. Seems that I can get a decent spruce top bear a dozen times over for the price. Only one close to realistic was the Asian Martin all-formica (high pressure laminate...yeah!) wit the lam neck for near $700...still too high$$ fr my tastes for a boat picker


----------



## Capt. Gary Randall (Jun 1, 2012)

I carry my saxophones with me on my own boat, or usually one alto on deliveries. I keep them in the case with a bag of silica or rice if I don't have silica. That seems to work okay they are always wet when you put them up. captg


----------



## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Sold a fellow boater who lives full time on his my Fender Acoustic with a very nice hard case. He opened up the case to play one day and the whole top of the guitar body and neck were wet. He moved it out to storage and brings it down to play. Shame.

I bring my Takamine acoustic down to the boat, but take it home, after hearing of the above. 

I had a small electric travel guitar that I kept on the boat full time last year. It fared well for months, until one day I noticed the bridge starting to pop out of the body. Still need to fix her and bring her back down. 

I would be willing to try out moisture prevention devices and media for the acoustic.

I do some of my best picking on the boat.


----------



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Some do more than that: They are carried by a guitar


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

No problem with my acoustic guitar yet! I have the Cordoba C5 guitar and it is in it's gig bag... the guitar has never had a problem or issues with the neck or having to constantly retune and I've had it 9 months here in Seattle. I do put the guitar in a plastic bag and seal tight when I'm away from the boat for any period of time exceeding one week... other than that I think it's a non issue just don't bring your more 'fine' guitars into the boat... my biggest fear is banging the guitar against rails, seats, bulkheads, etc.... so far I haven't gotten a single dent or scratch due to it being in the boat so I'm very happy at this time.

Nick


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Google "carbon fiber acoustic guitar" and see what you get.
I don't know specifically how good cf guitars are, but cf cellos are very good, can be played under water and take a beating with no discernable damage. Last weekend I watched a student play his cf cello for a professional ensemble and they did not realize that he was playing on a "plastic" instrument, even though one of them was on a cf cello. Most of the cf cellos sound like cellos, whereas the electric ones sound like synthesizer music.
As to price, cf guitars at <$2k are a really good deal. Cf cellos start at $7k, but then everything cello is more expensive, like $200 for one string!
ps. high humidity will eventualy take a toll on any wood instrument. The humidity will dampen the sound and the instrument will loose some of its brilliance.


----------



## vikingthunder (Sep 16, 2010)

Well, I guess I am going to try some of the humidity control things for in case, and perhaps try to find some for the boat in general. i only have one Guitar, a Santa Cruz cowboy singer, and I am not willing to let go of it when I move aboard, it just sounds too amazing.

We shall see how things go as time progresses.


----------



## Advocate777 (Sep 28, 2010)

From a professional guitarist: (Gibson J-150 acoustic electric big Dreadnought body: $3,000.00 acoustic guitar.
rule #1 for expensive acoustic guitars: 'Never leave them where a normal human being would feel uncomfortable' In other words...don't leave it in a hot trunk unless you yourself wouldn't mind sleeping in that hot trunk. Don't leave it outside in the garage when it is cold, etc. 
Treat your guitar like a person when it comes to where it 'lives', (where you keep it or store it).
Now, the trick with keeping it on a boat is that the climate fluctuates so much especially regarding temperature. The industry does have some products that are good humidity issues but depending on where you sail there can be way too much humidity and in Florida/Tropics the temperature can get really hot.....so, it is a challenge but the posts from the D'Addario guy is real good. The challenge is not always the humidity it is the high (or low) temperatures.

Some ideas:
-wipe the guitar down after use ALWAYS
-keep it in a good, padded guitar case where it is packed in tight. Keep a gel pac in it if in the humid tropics.
-leave the most expensive guitar at home and just bring the cheaper ones on the boat so you don't have to be freaked out about your guitar getting ****** up. (which it will if you dont nurse it)
-bring a good tuner
-keep the guitar OUT of the salt air at ALL costs.
-Me, I love my Gibson but I would rather take a less expensive Takamine on the boat. I have a Guild that has been so abused I wouldnt care. But, if you have a really nice expensive acoustic guitar that you really care about.....beware of bringing it on any extended sail cruise...especially in hot weather. The heat on the day that you are at the pub enjoying the day will produce wood that is bent and warped and your guitar will be TOAST.


----------



## vikingthunder (Sep 16, 2010)

Unfortunately, I have no place on land to leave it, as I am not leaving anything behind. I am moving on to the boat to live aboard. I will have to be careful as to where I leave her, but the Guitar comes with me, and I guess we see what happens.

May have to have a Fan vented compartment to leave the case in or something, so it never gets too hot. 

Going to be a learning experience, we will see how things go.


----------



## vikingthunder (Sep 16, 2010)

I ordered a good Thermometer/hygrometer, and some Instrument desiccant bags, and a humidity control package that was mentioned earlier. I guess we will see how things go, and I will report back periodically on how things turned out.


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Forgot to mention when I leave the guitar in the gig bag I have a bag with cedar chips that I place in the sound hole to absorb the additional humidity in the PNW when I leave it unattended... in Savannah I would do the opposite by having cedar chips with some humidity that allows the guitar not to get too dry... a humidifier in the case works just as well.


----------



## Advocate777 (Sep 28, 2010)

I appreciate your promise to update us- I also am aganonizing because I REALLY want to bring my Gibson...so, whatever workd for you, brother musician, please pass it along because I know so many of us will appreciate it. Every problem has a solution so let's help eachother as musicians are a special breed and so are sailors...where there is a will there is a way!


----------



## jaymckay (Apr 23, 2012)

yes i do it is a must have


----------



## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

I've been carrying my Morgan 6 string on various boats for months at a time for about 10 years. It lives in a hardshell case and the case stays out of direct sunlight. I don't use any type of humidity control system and have had no problems so far knock on wood.
Morgans are made in the Vancouver area so I figure it is used to moisture in its environs.
Elixir strings. She stays in tune well but I use a tuner anyway, primarily due to my lousy ears.


----------



## Cawarra Bill (Jun 19, 2012)

Im on the cheap guitar side of fence.... Doubt I would ever risk an expensive Tak or Gibson on any kind of enviro where it might get wet....sat on....crushed.... or whatever.. Fender makes a great acoustic for cheap that we keep on the boat for jam sessions....ya it sometimes lacks a full bodied sound but it keeps the fingers busy.....and people still sing along to it...... Was thinking of bringing my steel doboro for a trip..... worried about rust


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

craigtoo said:


> Hi, I'm a member here, but my day job is in the music industry.
> 
> I work for a company that makes these... Among many other products. Not trying to advertise, but to help out.
> 
> ...


I use D'Add EXP and they are awesome! It is the only string I will keep on my guitar permanently (though I use your cheaper D'adds when I break one). I have also noticed that they last longer from corrosion. For example, I broke an E a while back and the spares were all the non-coated D'adds. I played with that for a while but noticed within a few weeks the corrosion on the string where I pick. That string is now off and replaced with another EXP.

I am a bit miffed about the comments between the PNW and Florida. My experience is that the PNW is very dry - though it rains all the time. Weird, and doesn't make sense, but that was my experience. In fact, it was not unusual for us to put my sons Cello in the bathroom while he was showering to add some moisture to it before a concert. I was more concerned about keeping my guitar in PNW than in Florida! I have always been under the impression that moisture (not too much) is good for wood instruments and helps their voice. In fact, I have had people tell me that one of the worst places for wood instruments are places like Arizona where it is dry and hot.

The exact opposite is true in Florida where we have very high humidity... maybe too much and too much heat at times. SO, if I am not going to be playing the guitar for a long time, I loosen all the strings (just like if you were gong to take it on an airplane). I have had the neck on my Eastman warp about the tenth fret, but I think that was more an issue with the guitar than the environment.

I currentlty play a Taylor 814ce. It is one of the finest guitars I have played, with the exception of the 914ce which I like better and the Martin X(I forget which one, but comparable to the 914... not the GPCPA1). I am a huge Taylor fan - especially in this environment. The neck is fast and REPLACEABLE. The cases are very solid and tight. THis guitar has thousands of miles on it (especially adding in the airplane trips) and not a single issue. We live aboard and the guitar sits nicely beside my bed in its case. I do think that is the key: keeping it in a GOOD case. I do not use any moisture control... have not had to. We do have air conditioning on our boat, and when it is "too hot for the guitar" it is likely too hot for us. We will either be in a marina or running the generator. THat could be a long term issue though - as I generally play in the cockpit (lot of moisture) but keep it down below (dry when the AC is running). No problems yet though, and it has been here for almost a year.

Go price out the difference between replacing the neck on a Taylor versus a GIbson or Martin. Big difference. In fact, on some guitars, replacing the neck ends up being more than the guitar is worth. I found that out on my Takamine. THe Luthier I used also was not excited about replacing the neck on my Eastman, which I value around $500-$600.

I would not hesitate (and have not) taking my guitar on the boat. I love it and have had no problems with this guitar. I think it is a lot better for the guitar to sit on a boat and get used than it is for it to sit in storage and collect dust. Just keep an eye on your neck by pressing down on the 10th plus fret and making sure the height (action) stays consistent down the neck. A neck problem often shows itself early with a small decrease in the space or a buzzing on the E's.

Anyways, I am not an expert in this field. I only enjoy playing and lean on the advice of others for their opinions (luthiers). The only thing I might suggest is to use a really good (hard and tight) case and not a gig bag and keep an eye on your neck. OUtisde of that, jam away!

Brian

PS Love the Gison J150. That thing has a voice!!


----------



## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

Thanks for all the info guys! I am planning on bringing my acoustic bass with me when I go out, but as I live in Florida I will need to invest in some gear to keep it dry! Maybe this is a good excuse to buy a new, fancy 'house bass' as my current relatively cheap acoustic will have to be demoted to 'boat bass' if I notice any changes to tone or playability... finally get that Thunderchief I've been lusting over but cant justify the expense of!


----------



## MSter (Apr 1, 2008)

While I only keep my guitar on board when cruising (a few weeks at a time), I have found the Martin LXM (little Martin) has held up well. This is not the backpacker but more of a standard 3/4 sized guitar. It is made with a synthetic laminate body and neck and has so far been resistant to the humidity and salt air. Given the size, it sounds fantastic and I found I play it more than any other guitar I own. I am even thinking of installing a pickup for those open mic tiki bars!

The Admiral has recently found and purchased a ukulele for me. Talk about compact! I have got to say I love it and now pack it along to keep the Martin company....

LXM Little Martin Acoustic Guitar | SamAsh


----------



## PeterH61 (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm a lifelong guitarist owning several expensive Gibsons, Fenders and a Martin acoustic. I have never so much as entertained the thought of bringing these along to the boat no matter how short the stay. That said, I recently taught myself ukulele and love it! Ukes blend well into the sailing environment and can be more easily replaced than your other prized possessions and they keep the fingers limber...just a thought.


----------



## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I've got a Blackbird carbon fiber travel guitar. Like all most travel guitars, it's size limits the low end performance; however, it sounds great and the action is really nice (not as easy to play as an electric, but not bad). It's so stable it can sit for weeks and still be in tune or at least real close. They hollow the neck to get more resonance I guess, and this seems to work. Highly recommended, no affiliation, just happy customer...from this not so good but enthusiastic guitarist.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I can tell you first hand that the marine environment is quite harsh on music gear - ALL MUSIC GEAR! The salt air tried to eat my arranger keyboard stand, my Quick-Loc folding stool, and everything else. I performed in the Florida Keys and all along the eastern seaboard using my Yamaha arranger keyboard, it continues to function perfectly, despite the horrendous conditions of extremely high humidity. 

Now, I performed with a couple guitar players, one of which used a carbon fiber acoustic guitar that sounded incredible. He added a pickup, one that fit in the opening and was held in place with spring pressure. It never went out of tune, and the entire time he had it aboard his boat it never saw the inside of a case. I know it was not a low end guitar, but I cannot remember the brand name.

Good Luck,

Gary


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm sure my Taylor acoustics would not survive for long on the boat. They have a very specific humidity range outside of which all bets are off. I built a smaller body, nylon stringed, modified (has a radiused fretboard)"classical" guitar especially to keep aboard. It has a Spanish foot type neck structure with a truss rod and is made from Red Cedar. I also built a strong case for it so it can be stowed without worry of crushing. It has been on the boat now for three years without warping or splitting and although it does not project like a full sized guitar, has a nice full resonance.


----------



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Ukulele BABY!


----------



## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Tenor ukulele. I keep it in its bag when not in use, but it is still difficult to keep in tune (much harder than its twin at home). Then again, the way I play keeping the uke in tune is probably not all that important.


----------



## cranki (Jun 11, 2006)

I've had my Guild on board for a year now but I am mostly at the dock, no humidifiers though. It is built like a brick ****house and I have had no issues so far. When I cast off for longer periods than a couple of weeks at a time I may look into one of those carbon fiber guitars. I played one that I really liked and it would be nice to have a good guitar that I felt I could just leave lying about. I also have a cheap Epiphone acoustic that is my beach/boat/camping ax and right now the truss rod needs some tweaking. 

I keep a couple of electrics on board as well, but store them ashore when off cruising. Which brings up a question for you cruising types. Do people bring electrics and small amps or just acoustics? Are there many opportunities for jamming? Gigging?


----------



## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I've considered taking my baby Mexican Martin to the boat... but I'd hesitate to leave it there...
Martin 000CXE Black Acoustic-Electric Guitar | Musician's Friend

It gets REALLY hot on the boat when I am not there. But of course this guitar is a composite, with a weird laminated neck. It's got a great sound (definitely Martin), but is a small (NON-D size) and the sound is reflective of that. I've wondered if this particular guitar is a little more tolerant, of higher humidity (my guess is ONLY to a point).

I can't afford to waste $800 of the guitar to find out.

I have an old washburn D10, that's fallen flat on its neck on hardwood floor (don't ask it was moving out day from the ex)... I managed to glue it back (looks like hell), but I'd mind less if THAT one got all boogered on the boat. Sad though it's a birch Washburn, and a full D10, with decent sound... but I think it's living on borrowed time anyway.


----------



## MSter (Apr 1, 2008)

I think its just a bad idea as humidity would not only affect the neck/body but the electric components as well. They are just not built to withstand that environment. The general cruiser rule of "everything must have a dual purpose" may dictate leaving the electric ashore anyway. Even if they built an electric ax able to withstand the elements, most couldn't afford giving up the storage. If you must, I think your best bet is to fit a pickup in your existing acoustic and find a small portable PA with mic and instrument inputs. Both Peavey and Fender make models which are somewhat smaller and I am sure there are other brands even more portable (Roland, Samson, etc).

If I was actively gigging as my primary source of income, I would consider a larger (but still portable) PA...but the crowd I usually play to are sitting in my cockpit or around the fire.


----------



## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

I used to leave a travel electronic with two humbuckers onboard. I have a 10-year old (can't remember the name brand right now) portable battery-powered belt-mounted amp, with six effects. I can port in the iPhone and output to an external speaker, so I can listen to my favorite music and just play along the best I can. Sweet setup.

Guitar stood up for a year before the rear bridge pulled out on it's starboard side. It's since been fixed - think I'll just take it home each time. 

Much easier than lugging the acoustic down, which entirely takes up too much room on a 23-footer.


----------



## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Maybe coat it with bottom paint?


----------



## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm thinking of taking a mohogony standard ukulele and leaving it in the cabin. It gets unbearably hot there but what the hell it's only $35.


----------



## ardoin (Mar 8, 2008)

I have a Cargo Carbon Fiber guitar on the boat. It was given to me by a friend that owned the company before it went belly up. It is great, and can be stored in the bilge if needed.
I have no idea what they cost since it was a gift. It is prone to summer vs. winter changes in tune, but not to the humidity.
I imagine you could get one on ebay.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Humidity is not the enemy of guitars, lack of humidity is. That said, wild swings in temps can't be good. But I always sail with one of my best axes. I'm 67 years old. I'm pretty sure my guitars will outlive me. And I'm way too old to put up with a crummy sounding guitar.

I live right at the water's edge and I have had no problems with humbuckers or any other elecrical components. I'm also an audiophile(audiofool) so I am very close to my hi-fi systems and they seem to do fine in this salt water environment.


----------



## DearPrudence (Apr 8, 2013)

I'm afraid my acoustic is too large for my 30 footer because my skills are so small.  However, when this thing debuts...

JAMSTIK

Jeff


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Interesting Prud.

I do it the old fashioned way.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

So, does anyone keep a fiddle aboard? Aubrey did.


----------



## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Just looked up on ebay - carbon fiber guitars... um... you friend looking for more friends? Geesh... That much money, I'd be buying a high end Martin (and I live just minutes from their factory, shipping would be cheap!).

What we've determined is sailing and stringed instruments seem to go hand and hand.

Bob P, I live to integrate computers, network, and have to know everything technology has to offer, and frankly, NOTHING BUT NOTHING beats a great acoustic instrument. I am too darn old to consider myself an audiophile (my high end hearing has waned considerably)... but I am not immune to the differences between natural sound, and synthetic. With my EE education, nobody can convince me that Digital is more precise than analog, there is a reason why they call it "digital sampling."

Sorry am I bordering on "political?" Analog versus digital is a very HOT topic.

For the record I have been playing guitar for 30 years, and still stink! I can't sing either... doesn't stop me from torturing others from time to time. Trick is to wait until they are too drunk to care.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Schnool:
I am sold on the sound of vinyl and I have a very serious lp playback system. I also have two high end CD players. There are great sounding cd's and there are poor sounding lp's but my hearing is still acute and when I want to listen I choose an lp. I am lucky in that there are very good sources today for new vinyl and a rummage throgh the used record store is always great fun.

But, I noticed yesterday that a package of pipe cleaners I had left on the boat for a couple of years was badly "rusted". They could have been on the boat three years. But as I looked at the corrosion I wondered about having a nice electric guitar on board and the effect on the wiring. Can't be good.

CF guitars:
Rainsong sent me one of their expensive carbon guitars to try for a few months. It was a beautiful axe and it played very well. But it sounded pretty bad, thin and brittle sounding. I could have bought it at an attractive price but for the same money there are way too many nice timber guitars available. I sent it back. But, it sure was pretty.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Having built a substantial number of guitars and violins, it is very apparent that the sound of an instrument comes from the mysterious quality of the wood. The classical Italian makers in Cremona saved wood for their grandchildren. Wood less than 50 years old was considered no good yet for making fiddles. The tonal qualities of wood, as far as I've been able to glean, are not at all understood. Age is one factor. They cannot be duplicated in graphite and epoxy resin. There is a tremendous difference between species of spruce and maple. Even the elevation at which they grow and on which side of a mountain is important. The ear is the only tool to gauge the tonal quality of pieces of wood used to construct instruments. 
Plastic guitars are BLASPHEMY! Computer mass produced guitars like Taylors are acceptable, though nothing to write home about unless you're lucky enough to get one that happened to be made from a good piece of tonewood. The older hand-made Martins and Gibsons were made from old stands of timber by craftsmen who really knew their trade. There are still excellent builders around but that kind of wood is simply not available anymore at any price. Those old guitars are the best of the American acoustics. 
Instrument making is really an art form comprising so many areas of knowledge and skill. I've constructed violins exactly to the dimensions and graduations of Strads from CAT scans of those old instruments from good materials. They do not sound like real Strads. It's in the wood and the ability of the maker to use each piece of wood to its potential. Bow-making is another area of wood mysticism.


----------



## cranki (Jun 11, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Having built a substantial number of guitars and violins, it is very apparent that the sound of an instrument comes from the mysterious quality of the wood. The classical Italian makers in Cremona saved wood for their grandchildren. Wood less than 50 years old was considered no good yet for making fiddles. The tonal qualities of wood, as far as I've been able to glean, are not at all understood. Age is one factor. They cannot be duplicated in graphite and epoxy resin. There is a tremendous difference between species of spruce and maple. Even the elevation at which they grow and on which side of a mountain is important. The ear is the only tool to gauge the tonal quality of pieces of wood used to construct instruments.
> Plastic guitars are BLASPHEMY! Computer mass produced guitars like Taylors are acceptable, though nothing to write home about unless you're lucky enough to get one that happened to be made from a good piece of tonewood. The older hand-made Martins and Gibsons were made from old stands of timber by craftsmen who really knew their trade. There are still excellent builders around but that kind of wood is simply not available anymore at any price. Those old guitars are the best of the American acoustics.
> Instrument making is really an art form comprising so many areas of knowledge and skill. I've constructed violins exactly to the dimensions and graduations of Strads from CAT scans of those old instruments from good materials. They do not sound like real Strads. It's in the wood and the ability of the maker to use each piece of wood to its potential. Bow-making is another area of wood mysticism.


True. However, I have played a carbon fiber guitar that sounded better than my cheap, wooden Epiphone. My Guild sounds different and better than it did when I bought it new 33 years ago. All my good/gigging guitars are worth in the $500-600 range, but a couple have more value to me just because they have been in the family, so to speak, for so long. I think I would rather invest in some plastic and take a hit on tone than take a chance on ruining my babies.


----------



## talltorpedo (Aug 14, 2013)

If I were to keep a guitar aboard a sailboat, I would consider monetary risk, durability, size and tonal quality in that order. After all, if you were mostly interested in tonal quality you would keep your good guitar aboard. If you were only interested in durability you might want an $900 composite acoustic. I had an $80 Harmony parlor guitar that I banged around for about a decade before it fell apart. When I went to replace it the salesman showed me a $290 baby Martin “travel/parlor”  guitar made out of high pressure laminate (the same material used to make flooring) and I was sold. The tone is great for such a robust guitar (I have been rough with it and it shows no damage). Martin also makes a “backpacker” guitar which is incredibly small and fun to play but the tonal quality suffers from the small dimensions. Taylor makes a “travel/parlor” guitar but not without a solid wooden top. Alright, I’m a martin fan, so you might be surprised to find that I would not keep one on my sailboat (I like my “baby Martin” too well). Monetary risk being my primary consideration, I would buy a $99 six string yamaha GL1 ukulele/guitalele and keep it sealed in a plastic bag with one of those humidity packets. It’s smaller than a “travel/parlor” guitar, has that cheerful ukulele tone, uses the same fingering and chords as a guitar (only in a different key) and I think the nylon strings exert less pressure on the neck during storage. If/when anything happened to it I would just buy a new one. Hope this helps.
Do a youtube search under "Yamaha Guitalele Review - How does it sound?"
(I'm not allowed to post any links yet)


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Life is way too short to play a poor sounding guitar. It's music! It's all about sound!


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

cranki said:


> True. However, I have played a carbon fiber guitar that sounded better than my cheap, wooden Epiphone. My Guild sounds different and better than it did when I bought it new 33 years ago. All my good/gigging guitars are worth in the $500-600 range, but a couple have more value to me just because they have been in the family, so to speak, for so long. I think I would rather invest in some plastic and take a hit on tone than take a chance on ruining my babies.


It's certainly not true that just because it's wood, it'll sound good. Some wood is tonally dead.

It really is amazing how time changes the resonance of a guitar or any stringed instrument. One of my best sounding guitars is an old Gibson small body guitar that was my grandfather's. It was built around 1930, has been sat on, crushed and repaired, abused, and resembles a Willy Nelson guitar There's something aging does that no one has been able to reproduce.

No way would I keep an expensive guitar on the boat for many reasons. An expensive bauble is an invitation to theft, the possibility of water/excess humidity damage, and lack of good storage space are all reasons to keep a more expendable axe on board.


----------



## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

I bought a 12 string new cheap guitar and shipping less than 99$. Sounds ok
not like the Alvarez that walked away. It took a bridge DR to keep it playing but it probably wont last long once I get my first boat. Cheap guitar replace as needed.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I like great guitars. My Guild D-50 is now 47 years old. People are lined up waiting for me to die so they can inherit it. I have Martins, Larivees and I have custom accoustic guitars but at this time my new Gibson JS200 is my favorite axe. Next year it might be something else. But now I enjoy seeing my friend's faces light up when they tap into that thunder of the JS200.

I agree with Smurph. Time is very beneficial to some guitars. My Guild is a perfect example. 

It's very personal. I have no need to argue guitars. There is no argument. I know what I like and that's that. When I sit down to play whether it be in my office, my living room or any boat in any port. I want one of my great guitars. I need all the help I can get.

Come on up to my beach shack. We can pick a while.


----------



## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

For a guitar player thinking about ukeleles: Baritone Ukes are strung DGBE, meaning they are the same as the 4 higher strings on a standard guitar and some chords from guitar can be used on them. They are great for strumming and playing rhythym, and much easier to play lead on than a soprano or tenor. Mine cost about $70 with a gig bag. 
I'm a bass player by trade though, so YMMV! My guitar playing is very rudimentary and almost entirely chord strumming... often power and bar chords


----------



## Palm-Tree-Living (Aug 25, 2013)

I was very pleased to read about this, I to have wounder about bring my guitar on the water as well. Thank you for the insight.


----------



## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

I am new here and to sailing. This was a very interesting thread with responses ranging from "do not bring a wood acoustic on board" to someone that brings 800 series Taylors on board. I will be in the second group. It seems like having a humidity guage in the cabin along with dry bags with those gel bags to suck out moisture when needed is the way I'll go. 

The last picture I saw of Fatty Goodlander was of him holding a composite body acoustic guitar. That seems like a good idea too. Although, I really like my Taylors.


----------



## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

BTW: What type of music is being played by sailors. My passion is Leo Kottke, and fingerstyle in general.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

gbgreen59 said:


> BTW: What type of music is being played by sailors. My passion is Leo Kottke, and fingerstyle in general.


Mostly alternative 90s and 80's classic rock. I have the 814ce, btw. No problems. Taylor cases are incredibly strong and tight. If I only had a gig case, I would be much more concerned.

One thing I do which might help you too is putting a towel or two out in the cockpit when you play. The finish on the Taylors (and other guitars) can chip and fixing that is a real pita. I have found that having a safe place I can sit the guitar when I want to set it down without dropping it in the case is really helpful. FIberglass doesn't give much!

Brian


----------



## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

Thanks for the reply and advice. Much appreciated. It was really encouraging to see how many sailors also have their instruments on board.


----------



## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

I hate taking my good guitars on the boat, so I made one out of Formica.

Boat Guitar | Sailing Fortuitous










It's not the greatest sounding guitar ever, but it totally works, and I don't worry about it at all. I'm in the process of making a new one at 3/4 scale, which I think will be even easier to take on the boat.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I always take one of my best axes on board. I figure all of my guitars will outlive me. My current favorite is this Gibson JS200. It's a mite big for a boat guitar. My Martin OM-28 is far more compact and is a great sounding and playing axe.


----------



## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

Wow, you (gfh) do amazing work. I bought a couple of books on Luthier work. After reading, I figured it would be a real committment to get good at it. So, now I just admire those who can do work like yours.


----------



## cranki (Jun 11, 2006)

I just added a brand new Guild F412 12 string to my collection. ( have wanted a guild 12 for years and this was an opportunity I couldn;t pass up) It is on board right now and it absolutely fills the cabin with sound when I play! As a live aboard with power I am not too concerned about the environment. And I will probably take this guitar with me when I cast off...just have to keep a close eye on her.


----------



## Coastlife247 (Jun 28, 2013)

I have a 3/4 ibanez that i play on my livaboard. I try and keep the AC on or hatchez open as mich as allows. I do have to retune it every 1-2 months. I realize the jumidity isnt good for the wood instrument but i have nowhere else to keep it, where it can be played.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Bought a Guild 12 string years ago but my son confiscated it.
I do have a 1966 Guild D-50 that is one of my treasures. It's a cannon. My friends are lined up to inherit it.


----------



## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

gbgreen59 said:


> Wow, you (gfh) do amazing work. I bought a couple of books on Luthier work. After reading, I figured it would be a real committment to get good at it. So, now I just admire those who can do work like yours.


Thanks man. It definitely looks better on the net than it does in real life.


----------



## vikingthunder (Sep 16, 2010)

I have a Santa Cruz Cowboy Singer, and I love it so much I cannot bear to go without it. So it is coming with me, and I will just do the best I can to manage humidity issues.

Gotta have a good Guitar when you have a beautiful beach and a beautiful Margarita!


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I was so bad that I haven't played since '64 but I found this funny. United breaks guitars You Tube.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thunder:
You young guys!
Humidity is not the enemy of guitars. Lack of humidity is.

I've grown tired of trying to explain this.
I live 100' from the water, in the PNW where it rains all the time. My guitars love it here.
If you live in Palm Springs you will have a problem.

But have it your way.


----------



## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

I try to play, I am not good, but it isn't dry or wet it is change that eats guitars. 
Perhaps salt water spray is as bad for guitars as it is for everything else I don't 
know, but a 12 string sings.


----------



## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

I have carried a guitar from Abq to Montreal and she sang until some xxxxx stole her.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Desert:
I think you are right. It's big swings in temp and humidity that can hurt an axe. But on Puget Sound I don't have that to wiorry about.

Salt water spray is bad for anything. You could try Gortex coated, Elixar (sp) strings but I would never subject any guitar to salt water spray.


----------



## sunnyside (Feb 11, 2013)

a baby Martin is easier to store and pull to the cockpit to play and black is just cooler. Great sound and easier to play than full size guitar.


----------



## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

sunnyside said:


> a baby Martin is easier to store and pull to the cockpit to play and black is just cooler. Great sound and easier to play than full size guitar.


Those Little Martins are great for boats. My next boat guitar will be that size and very similar in construction.

It's "Little," by the way, or anything with a designation starting with L (like an LX1 or LXM model). "Baby" is for the Baby Taylor, which I think is a much better guitar in the abstract, but not as well suited for boat use as the Martin since the Taylor uses a lot more real solid wood.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

I would not go sailing without a guitar. We bring one even on week long canoe camping trips. Garbage bag for rain.

A few years ago I bought an inexpensive but amazingly decent (used) guitar to bring on our tiny Victoria 18 for a week of camping on Moosehead Lake. No case, we needed every 1/4 inch of room! That cheap used guitar beat the socks off so called travel guitars that I've owned or tried.

I've since gone back to bringing a nice handmade with solid tone woods, no plywood. I want (and need) the better sound. Life is short.

I sail for enjoyment - not pay, and I play guitar for enjoyment. Really nice sounding guitars have a feeling to the sound that greatly increases my enjoyment. Some rare nylon string guitars have a good sound as well, with less tension than steel strings. They seem to react to temperature more than humidity. I call them "rubber" guitars, no offense I hope, and I have one I enjoy, I just can't get quite the snappy rhythm out of it as I can with steel strings. Excellent for noodling around on though.

My experience agrees with Bob Perry, it's lack of moisture that hurts. Here in Maine a heated house in the winter is much drier than even the desert, so I take precautions to keep up the humidity.

Back in the 70's I purchased (with help from a pro musician) a handmade solid wood guitar which has never been indoors since I got it. I kept it in a tipi, and now in my boathouse. Not even bitter cold (way below zero F.) has hurt it. BUT, there are no wild temperature swings like you get going in and out of heated buildings. Of course, I don't let the open fire shine on it, that cracked my sister's guitar with a big BANG! Don't let the sun shine on the case where you store it.

I find that when I buy a new guitar, it changes after a bit of outdoor experience, shifting somewhat. I've always worked on it myself, being too far from luthiers. Lowering or raising the nut or bridge, adjusting the torsion bar, just using my judgment of what needs to be done. Then once it settles down it remains stable, with a slight seasonal change. I have good hardshell cases for most of my guitars - all the good ones.

I use elixir strings, they really do last longer. And while my steel string guitars seem to stay in tune really well (especially the one that never comes inside) I still fine tune the strings at the start of each session, I want the harmonics accurate and true A 440 concert pitch.

I have not (yet) taken on the boat my best guitar, with the label signed by Chris Martin and autographed by Merle Haggard.

This summer someone nearby sat on his deck, leaned against the cabin, and played acoustic guitar while we were anchored out at one of the uninhabited Maine islands. Very nice, beat the heck out of people blasting tiresome radios.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Sky. I'd love to see that Merle autographed guitar some day. Better schedule a trip to the beach shack soon. We can pick and grin.

I'm 67 years old.
But I feel 87. 

I have played since I was 14. That's 53 years. I play Ok.
But I will not play an inferior sounding guitar."Mini" "baby" "weenie"
I don't want to play one of those. I play a jumbo Gibson. If they made a "super jumbo" I'd buy it. I did own a Gibson Super 400. Nice axe.

I won't live a lot more years but I'll be damned if I will play a "weenie" guitar, on a boat on an anything. A good axe is going to outlive me.

If you have "baby" guitar abilities maybe good that you keep the volume down with a weenie guitar. But I want a cannon. If I am sailing by myself with no one around. I want a cannon. I play pretty well and I want an axe that will respond to my efforts. " I've done my part,,,,now do yours."

This is a very personal thing. I am just letting you into my guitar world.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Thanks Sky. I'd love to see that Merle autographed guitar some day. Better schedule a trip to the beach shack soon. We can pick and grin.


I'd love to visit, but the whole east coast west coast thing is too far for me to casually drop in. I'll definitely bring the Merle guitar if I do.

I agree with the cannon idea, good sound can be felt (in your center) as well as listened to. I suppose the sound waves actually press against your "stomach". I judge guitars by how the sound feels to me. After all, music is really about feeling when you come right down to it. That's one reason good singers are a pleasure, their voice control comes from their center, where deep feelings are felt, thus they can touch our centers.

I bought a so called "Martin travel guitar" when they first came out, but felt like I might as well put strings on a 2x4. Got rid of that real quick.

While writing this my wife told me I need to make a "winter to do" list to get ready for winter. She actually ordered me to put "hunting" on the list, said she needed a deer for the freezer. Hard to please!


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sky:
I admit to poking the little guitars dogs with a stick last night just to rile them up. Fact is when I'm not playing nthe JS200 Gibson my axe of choice is a small Martin (not a mini-Martin) the OM-28 Eric Clapton model. It's quite a bit smaller than a Dreadnaught. It's a wonderful guitar.


----------



## Ranthra (Feb 9, 2011)

bobperry said:


> I always take one of my best axes on board. I figure all of my guitars will outlive me.


That is a new perspective. I bought a cheaper laminate guitar to carry ob sailing trips, but I hate it. I now have a Martin Backpacker that I'm trying out. The size is convenient, but the size and shape is just odd.

Been considering a Luna Dolphin 3/4. Nice smaller size and the dolphins around the sound-hole are cool and "nautical".

Bob's advice might just be the way to go. More acoustics at home that I can find proper time for, and never enough sailing time either. Might as well combine the two and use 'em up now while I can enjoy them!


----------



## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

Before I read this thread, I was going to bring my solid wood guitars on board even if it was a bad idea. I was just going to do my best to ensure it was well kept. I'm not so worried about it now. I am passionate about my guitars and I play 10 or more hours each week. It has been exciting to hear this group to be not only into guitars, but most importantly, passionate about playing. Just like the ocean, it gets into your soul...the instrument, playing, and the artists that brought the music to us.


----------



## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

bobperry said:


> Sky:
> I admit to poking the little guitars dogs with a stick last night just to rile them up.


I wondered if that's what you were doing. You sounded like a powerboater.

"Moar power equalz Moar Gud!"


----------



## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

Those OM-28s are really nice, by the way. My favorite acoustic is based on a Martin OM plan. But I'm not taking it anywhere near my boat!


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I love that powerboat. Imagine the fuel consumption.

For me the choice of guitar is all about tone and action. I don't care about size. My Om-28 and my Gibson JS200 could not be more different in tone but I like each for it's own virtues.

I played a $245 Takamine Martin knock off the other day. I was amazed at the sound and quality of build avavailable at that money. I damn near bought it. Just really don't need another one.

I don't own a guitar I wouldn't take on the boat. I do not baby them. I use them.


----------



## Tim Newman (Sep 26, 2013)

I've got a Martin D28 Marquis, bought it second hand when I arrived in Melbourne....that thing is as loud as hell, a right cannon. No way I'd take it on a boat though, I have a much cheaper Yamaha I use for camping trips and the like.


----------



## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I leave my nice guitars at home. I went to the local music store and found a nice acustic, nylon string with a built in pick-up. Less than $100. Been playing it on the boat for a few years now. If it dies, I'll just get another.


----------



## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

Seems like if you are only strumming open chords, then an inexpensively made guitar will work fine. But when you are dependent on staying in tune all the way up the neck playing open strings at the same time playing string fingered on the 12th, 14th, etc frets, then a well made guitar is most important (BTW: well made does not necessarily equate to "really expensiive"). Also, when play up around the 7th to 15th frets, you don't want the action really high plus not buzzing on adjacent frets. Hence, a well made guitar is necessary when using the whole neck.

I usually pick up really cheap guitars when in the shop just to see if I can make them sound good. Most of the time, they don't work acceptably well. They go out of tune up the neck and the action is usually really high starting at the 7th fret and up.


----------



## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

Sorry to belabor this but...alternate tunings also cause a forcing function to only use well made guitars. Only about a third of the songs I play are in standard tuning. Alternate tunings will cause a weak neck to show itself. Also, staying in tune up the neck becomes even more difficult unless the guitar is well made.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

The $245 Takamine I played and I consider that a "cheap" guitar, played extremely well. The neck was spot on. CNC build has solved a lot of the cheap guitar neck issues. That intro level Takamine is not your Grandpa's $28 Stella or my $47 Harmony archtop, my very first axe.

As for alternate tunings, I've been struggling with standard tuning for 53 years. When I get it mastered I'll try some alternative tunings. Randy Bachman did a great radio show (CBC2) on alternative tunings used by Keith Richards. So if you can't quite get that intro to HONKY TONK WOMEN you might try an open C tuning.


----------



## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

Ah yes, "Honky Tonk Women" (country version), "Angie", "Love in Vain"....good KR acoustic songs. I still bring up "Angie" every now and then. I hate to admit it but I still, accidently, play "Stairway to Heaven" when I get board.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Have you seen HEART's rendition of STAIRWAY at the Kennedy Center? Amazing.
You can find it on Youtube.

If you want to laugh your ass off you might also look for "B.B.King spoof shreds"
There are a bunch of shred spoofs there for different players. It's really low level musical humnor but I'm a low level kind of guy.


----------



## Tim Newman (Sep 26, 2013)

Country Honk is fun to play, pretty easy too. I learned it from YouTube lessons.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Sky:
> I admit to poking the little guitars dogs with a stick last night just to rile them up. Fact is when I'm not playing nthe JS200 Gibson my axe of choice is a small Martin (not a mini-Martin) the OM-28 Eric Clapton model. It's quite a bit smaller than a Dreadnaught. It's a wonderful guitar.


OM-28 Eric Clapton is a beautiful, high quality guitar. I almost purchased one myself.

I have fat fingers, and like wide necks, which may be why I didn't go for it. Wider necks are harder to play, but fat fingers make it too easy to get a buzz or mute when playing.

I also like 12 fret necks. I like to imagine that letting the body touch the neck at the point of harmonics disrupts the sound waves less. Wave reflections should stack in phase.

Doubtful it means anything, but it's all in fun!


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

I'd like to distinguish between accurately made guitars with great necks, and rich sounding tone from solid woods, that improve as they age. I'll take an imperfect neck with great tone over the great neck with poor tone. I love rich sound!

Plus, it's hard to believe that a wooden box with wires strung on it can cause feeling and pleasure.

They are all magic.

Different guitars are like different sailboats, "It's ALL Good!"


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Different guitars are like different sailboats, "It's ALL Good!" 
`

I would agree with you on that.
I have my eye on a vintage Jazzmaster. I think I need it.


----------



## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

Bob P, thanks for the tip on Heart's tribute to Led Zepplin. I have not come across that before. It was amazing to see the three remaining members listening to their legendary accomplishments. Very, very moving for someone who was always waiting anxiously for the next Led Zepplin album to come out. I saw them twice...once with Jethro Tull as the backup band.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Never saw Zep. My band played a weekend "festival" with them but I didn't see them. What I remember was their road manager sitting in the ticket booth collecting the cash because he was worried they weren't going to get paid. I wasn't a fan until much later. Some of their albums have been reissued on vinyl. I have one. It's Ok.


----------



## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

skygazer said:


> I also like 12 fret necks. I like to imagine that letting the body touch the neck at the point of harmonics disrupts the sound waves less. Wave reflections should stack in phase.
> 
> Doubtful it means anything, but it's all in fun!


Yes, it means nothing (with respect to harmonics). The second harmonic is only over the 12th fret when playing an open string, so even if it did matter, it would only matter for those 6 notes.

What it does mean is that the bridge is in a slightly different place than it would be on a 14 fret neck, which has to be accounted for in the bracing, which effects the way the top moves, but it's pretty subtle.


----------



## vikingthunder (Sep 16, 2010)

I love this thread!


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Viking:
How can you not?
It's got everything, boats, guitars,,,,and,,,,, everything.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

skygazer said:


> ....I also like 12 fret necks. I like to imagine that letting the body touch the neck at the point of harmonics disrupts the sound waves less. Wave reflections should stack in phase.
> 
> Doubtful it means anything, but it's all in fun!





gfh said:


> Yes, it means nothing (with respect to harmonics). The second harmonic is only over the 12th fret when playing an open string, so even if it did matter, it would only matter for those 6 notes.
> 
> What it does mean is that the bridge is in a slightly different place than it would be on a 14 fret neck, which has to be accounted for in the bracing, which effects the way the top moves, but it's pretty subtle.


I apologize for not making my thinking clearer, I was just touching on my ideas, which are not so much ideas like words, but mental images/visualization. I'm more intuitive than mathematical. Don't confuse me with the facts!  Anyway, here is an attempt to change the ideas into words.

First a disclaimer, I'm vaguely aware that guitars, like sailboats, have compromises made to make them playable. So my discussion here is merely the thought flow I've had while playing with my guitars, it's not meant to be exact, I don't have any urge to argue (this is sailnet after all) about any of it. I'm sure I'm glossing over the fine points.

I do know for sure that the idea of wave forms moving through the guitar had nothing to do with why I own several 12 fret neck guitars, and play them more than the 14 fret guitars I own. It's just an idea that occurred to me while playing them. You are probably right that the construction is more important, perhaps the proportionally larger "chest" on the box allows more resonance, I don't build guitars, just enjoy them. I think Martin claims there vintage guitars move the X bracing up an inch, so that may be a factor, creating a more flexible "belly".

The following is stuff I've thought about, not anything that is proven or backed up or taught anywhere.

I probably should not have mentioned the harmonics in the previous post, I was using them to define the location as being at a major nodal (non-moving) point on the string. I didn't mean that the harmonics were the wave forms that interested me. I think harmonics are too easy to achieve. Thinking back to my high school physics class, I was visualizing the wave tank. When the wave cycles per second were adjusted so outgoing waves were in sync with waves reflected off the end wall we got perfect standing waves, with nodes that held still while standing waves moved up and down.

Those standing waves are what we like in music. Many perfect fractions of the wave cycles will also match up (sync) with the standing waves. The frets on the guitar automatically make those fractions (with some compromises of course), but with a fretless instrument it's easy to hear/feel them.

The 12th fret is unique in that if fingered you get an octave above the open string. If you play the harmonic there you also get an octave. There is nowhere else like it. I suppose it more or less cuts the string in half.

I visualize the sound waves resonating by bouncing (reflecting) back and forth, on the sting and through the guitar body and neck, the sustain coming from the trapped standing waves reinforcing each other with nowhere to go.

As a side note, I also visualize that as strings get older and suffer corrosion, metal fatigue, and crimps at the frets and ends they develop stiff spots, where sound waves are disrupted and scattered a bit, sending out random waves that are not in sync. This of course kills the purity of the sound and makes fritzy dissonance. You still get the standing waves, but they are covered with tiny random waves.

(Back to sailing for a second.) Imagine a smooth wave train from the wake of a powerboat at a distance on a calm surface of water, and then imagine the same wake with a gusty irregular wind blowing over it, and hitting dock pilings etc. The choppy one is the sound wave on the old corroded string. To me that helps me understand why I like brand new strings, the waves keep a purer form for a longer time. I always wipe down (polish) the strings when done playing, to at least reduce the corrosion from my dirty sweaty fingers and skin acid. The other stuff can't be helped.

Anyway, side "note" over with. Waves reflect off any fixed object that interferes with their free motion. Since (again, I visualize, no proof) the waves are traveling up and down the length of the guitar, it's probable that the vertical rise of the sound box (body) of the guitar acts like a "strong back" in carpentry, at right angles to the length of the guitar, and causes a stiff spot. Since this change in flex should make reflections, it is important that it lands on a non moving nodal point.

The 14th fret is a nodal point, so no problem. But, the 12th fret is the ultimate nodal point, just play harmonics at various points and see if anywhere is as easy as the 12th fret. And since it is also the open string octave point, it seems (to me) to be the ultimate point for a stiff spot in the flow. Any note played on the guitar will have a node at this point (and the 14th fret also). When playing open chords at the nut the open strings should have some reflections that are octaves. Octave reflections are longer than harmonics, they seem to last longer and can be felt more easily and, for an old fart like me, heard more easily. Generally turning your sound energy into high frequencies reduces its effectiveness, we feel bass easier, it carries further. A stiff, poorly resonating guitar turns a lot of the sound energy into harmonics, sounds bright and detailed, but is not as thick and rich sounding. The octave reflection seems like a small point, but if waves are moving a hundred times a second you can see where bleeding off energy into harmonics can have an almost immediate effect.

I own an old large black(gun)powder horn from the southwest that has carved and inked on it a guitar - among other things like senoritas, and wine bottles and glasses, and a lizard. It's not in front of me, but I believe the guitar has a 12 fret neck. I'll bet for a century or more they were normally built with 12 fret necks, and the 14 fret neck is a modern compromise to allow playing further up. For all I know it started after amplification when good acoustics became less important. Personally, I now own a 12 fret neck with a cutaway to reach the higher frets, I know I often want to go to a high D chord which I can't get cleanly without the cutaway. I'm sure the cutaway detracts from the sound - compromise again!


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

Bob Perry, I'm glad you posted those photos. I foolishly pictured you looking like Batman for some reason! 

My avatar is an actual photo of me by my (cheap but real) green tipi on a below zero morning.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sky:
Batman, Adam West, aka Bruce Anderson, is my mother in law's cousin, from Walla Walla Wa. So, you could say we are related. I'm not making this up.

I'm just another old grey haired guy.

I've never counted my frets. I just pick up the axe and play. I'm so non techy that I have to look inside my Martins to remind myself what models they are. I know I have a big one and small one. I'm really a bass player, but I don't get much enjoyment sitting around the shack playing the bass by myself. I keep the Gibson JS200 in the living room and the rest of my collection in the office. I have a couple of Strats and a beautiful custom, semi hollow PRS, signed on the back of the head stock to me from Paul himself. It was a gift. But I seldom plug in. The Strats are both Eric Clapton models and my son Max has decided that one of them is his. And, that's exactly why I bought two. I enjoy playing lead but these days I'd probably use the JS200. It has piezzos in it and I just like the way it feels. I don't use no stinkin' pedals. I mostly like to play C&W and I'm a real Gram Parsons fan.

Here is a pic of me shredding (at least I thought I was shredding) on my '62 reissue Jazz Bass I bought 30 years ago. It's a sweetie pie. My honey. I look at a lot of new basses but I don't want to offend my Jazz Bass it by setting it aside. I have a nice Warwick fretless too.


----------



## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I saw both Jethro Tull and Zep a couple times, (I think) and maybe Tull was the warm-up band once. After a Zepplin concert where I was way too close I couldn't hear for a day. The strangest pairing I ever saw was Black Sabbath warming up the crowd for Grand Funk Railroad. 
Now that was MUSIC !!!!!


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Tull? I could never get into that prancing around a meadow and dressing like goblin music.

Besides Ian Anderson is a big time salmon farmer and I boycott farm raised salmon. Didn't care for his music and not gonna eat his fish.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Sky:
> Batman, Adam West, aka Bruce Anderson, is my mother in law's cousin, from Walla Walla Wa. So, you could say we are related. I'm not making this up.


So you DO look like Batman, you must if you are related!

Makes me feel better since the image is fixed in my brain.

Besides, without the mask, I don't know what he looks like anyway.



bobperry said:


> Sky:
> I have a nice Warwick fretless too.


 Hard to count the frets on that!

I'm not into fret counting, just was into the way the sound came through my guitar one day.

Hate to admit it, but I didn't know that the first one (12 fretter) I purchased had 12 frets, and I hadn't realized that necks came in different widths. I just lined up the best guitars in the shop, played them in a sound proof room, and took home the one I liked best. I was amazed that I lined them up in the order I liked them, and the prices turned out to be in the same order, proving to me that the builders know what they are doing. Later I realized I had an extra wide neck 12 fret. Much later I got one with a cutaway. My wife now plays the Martin I had with a narrow neck.

People sometimes ask me what model guitar I have, I also have to look in and read the label. Glad I'm not the only one, I can't keep all those numbers and letters straight.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

Tull plays a wind instrument. Shouldn't sailors prefer wind instruments over strings?


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sky:
Very funny. I ended up with a Larivee the same way. I just sat in the "expensive guitar room" and played them all. I finally came down to the Larivee. It was the most expensive. Bought it anyway and gave it to my son for Christmas. I just sent it back to Larivee for a repair. The bridge had split from side to side, straight through the middle of the pin holes. They replaced the bridge for very little money. I forget, maybe $50. I thought it was good service. My local luthier wanted $200 for the job. But if you inlcude the cost of shipping the guitar to Larivee and back I ended up paying $200 anyway.

My Dad always told me I was "thick as a brick" so there was not way I'd become a Tull fan.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

skygazer said:


> OM-28 Eric Clapton is a beautiful, high quality guitar. I almost purchased one myself.
> 
> I have fat fingers, and like wide necks, which may be why I didn't go for it. Wider necks are harder to play, but fat fingers make it too easy to get a buzz or mute when playing.
> 
> ...


I hear you. When carving a neck, I use 12 string width on a 6 string down at the nut. Some guitars, like some of the post 60s Gibsons have awfully tight string spacing. I gave my daughter my early 60s Hummingbird, never really liked how it sounded or how it played, mostly due to the tight neck width. I would love to bring a good guitar on the boat, I know exactly what Bob is saying, but there just isn't room for a full sized case with all the rest of the crap I have aboard. Going to make room for a fiddle this winter though.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Smurph:
Right. As much as I love that SJ200 the case is so big that to bring it on the PERRYWINKLE (if I still had it and I don't) would have been stupid. But I did 90% of my cruising by myself and the guitar got the quarter berth.

I've played several Hummingbirds. Never found one I liked. Never analyzed it but I never warmed up to that guitar. I'd say my JS200 neck is medium width. My Clapton Strats are silly skinny. But fun to play lead on. Impossible to chord on if you want to stay in tune.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

bobperry said:


> Smurph:
> Right. As much as I love that SJ200 the case is so big that to bring it on the PERRYWINKLE (if I still had it and I don't) would have been stupid. But I did 90% of my cruising by myself and the guitar got the quarter berth.
> 
> I've played several Hummingbirds. Never found one I liked. Never analyzed it but I never warmed up to that guitar. I'd say my JS200 neck is medium width. My Clapton Strats are silly skinny. But fun to play lead on. Impossible to chord on if you want to stay in tune.


Built a Tele recently, having become convinced that Brad Paisley must be the world's best guitar player and wanting to learn some of his licks. Made the body from boards cut from an Ash tree I cut down a few years ago, the neck from some really tight grained, quarter-sawn red cedar. Put Custom Shop electronics in it. Those thin, stretchy electric guitar strings definitely make keeping chords in tune virtually impossible but there are things the Fenders do that no other guitar can match. That "chicken pickin" sound seem to be synonymous with Fender. Bought a Taylor T5 a few years back, expecting maybe a good cross between acoustic and electric but it does neither really well although it is a really nice guitar to play. I'm sure it would not survive long on the boat.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Smurph:
I decided I wanted a Tele a few yaers back. Called my nlocal music store and talked to the owner, my pal. He said they had a James Burton model just in. I said I want it and hold it for me. My pal said, "You'd better come look at it first." I did. It was black with a purple pick guard, triple pickups and all the metal parts were primer, flat black. It was not a pretty guitar. I told my pal I'd have to think about it. Thought about it for two weeks. Called my pal and said, "I'll take it, after seeing Burton back up Roy Orbison in the black and white special, he played a duel pickup model. My buddy said, "It's sold." Not sure I'll ever have a Tele now.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Bob, 
It's amazing how much different the Tele is from the Strat. The density of the thick Ash body on a Tele creates a distinct sound. I wired the one I built with a four position switch which allows the pickups to be hooked in series as a fourth sound option, although it increases hum, which is always an issue with these. I lined all the cavities with lead sheathing to cut hum down to a minimum.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

Batman Perry, It's been years but I remember when trying out guitars a Larivee (made in Canada IIRC) and a Santa Cruz were among the finalists. The owner put me in the special room and brought in all his finest guitars for me to try. I was surprised to be treated so well. Maybe he smelled woodsmoke and knew I wouldn't go back to the hills without a new guitar -special and rare trip to the city. 

I finally settled on a vintage series Martin, model ???? or something like that.  Had the wide neck, 12 frets, and the strange classical guitar headstock, with the closed tuning pegs and the winding knobs on the rear. A learning experience for me. A keeper.

Smurph, very cool that you built a guitar from a tree that you cut yourself!!  I admire stuff like that. Not surprised that a sailor would use lead to ballast his guitar.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I have a buddy who has that Martin. Nice small guitar. Sometimes you just pick one up that immediately speaks to you. That's the way it was when I found my Jazz Bass. Two plunks and I took it home.

I was very lucky. For years a guy I played with regularily owned a chain of music stores in the PNW, American Music. This gained me the buddy discount and that was often about 50% off retail. This made saying "NO!" difficult at times. But I look around the room and see too many guitars that don't get played. They need new strings. I'll sit down one Saturday and change them all. I need an in house guityar tech.

I think my reluctance to buy a Tele is the fear that I won't be able to get that signature Tele sound out of it myself. I'm no James Burton. But I have another playing buddy who has a nice one. He never plays it. Maybe I'll swap him my PRS for a while and see if I like it. He does like my PRS.

I think I'll take a pic of my PRS. You guys should see it. I traded Paul some design work for a guitar. He asked me, "Would you be intertested in trading some design work for a guitar?" I thought about it for .5 seconds and said "Yes!" Smart move on my part.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

Whoa Batman, very nice looking guitar, beautiful wood. Are the f-holes painted on or do they have some electronic function?

I love gorgeous wood, but it's not on mine. I sometimes call the vintage series Martin I have "Jane" as in "Plain Jane". Not a bit of decoration, beautiful sound only. The spruce top has vertical grain lines about 100/th of an inch apart near the bridge, opening rapidly as it approaches the sides to a wide spacing of around 1/8th inch. I've wondered if this contributes to the nice sound, being stiffer where far from the side support, and looser where reinforced by the sides of the box, so it can still move/resonate across the whole top.

No label in there, I just looked. Stamped into the neck block is the model, "Vintage Series OOO-28VS".

Not that my guitars have a hard life  , but I notice the brass plated snaps on the case are slightly corroded, and the chrome? tuning knobs are very dull. The guitar itself is still in beautiful shape, the humidity affecting the metal poorly but the wood likes it.

It's more important to me to use my good things while I'm alive. For awhile I shot competitive smallbore riflery. I'd always been the best shot I knew till I joined a club where I was the worst, and the best (from NH) seemed to be from another planet. They kindly coached me. I purchased an Anschutz Olympic style rifle, very heavy and adjustable, for several thousand dollars. I have a Unertl 2 inch scope with actual black widow spider silk crosshairs in it. At first I was afraid to mar the beautiful surface on the extra fine wood. Then one day during a match I noticed my trigger finger touched the fine wood stock as I released the position adjustable trigger. 

At that point I made a life decision to do what's best. I pulled out my sheath knife and carved off the offending piece of the stock, thereby destroying the resale value. I also went on the become (in time) state champion about 6 times over. One year after quitting I went back to my last state championship to allow the new champ to beat the old. I won again and never went back. 

My point??????????? 

Do what's best for your short life, never mind resale value. Take your good guitars with you. Don't worry about wearing things out, use them. If you use up/wear out your rifle/sailboat/guitar that's good, you used it enough and it's time to get a new one.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sky:
Those are real F holes. This is a hollow body guitar. PRS calls it the "semi-hollow" as they make a thicker body hollow body guitar too. I didn't care for the look of the thicjker body so I went with this model. Paul took me on a tour through the factory then asked "What do you want?". It has peizzos in it also. I do notice that while PRS's are very common with the touring pros I seldom if ever see anyone playing this model.

I don't baby my guitars. I just play them and dust them from time to time. I like to keep them out because they are fun to look at. To me they are little works of art and kind of markers down the road of my life. I still have the Guild D-50 I bought in 1966. If that guitar could talk I'd have to go into hiding. I'll never sell my guitars. I'll give them to my son Max. He plays and I'm sure he'd love to inherit my collection.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

One can have too many cars, boats...or wives but never too many guitars As Hendrix once said, "That's alright I still got my guitar."


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Sky:
> I don't baby my guitars. I just play them and dust them from time to time. I like to keep them out because they are fun to look at. To me they are little works of art and kind of markers down the road of my life. I still have the Guild D-50 I bought in 1966. If that guitar could talk I'd have to go into hiding. I'll never sell my guitars. I'll give them to my son Max. He plays and I'm sure he'd love to inherit my collection.


Bat, I hoped the f-holes were real, but didn't phrase it that way just in case.

Totally agree on the works of art beauty thing. I love the way guitars are based on the curves of the female torso. Nothing more attractive.

You have some great guitar connections, I always pay full boat price. I'm just lucky I guess, that way I don't have to own too many. 

Not babying your guitar reminds me of something. Two years ago I saw Tommy Emmanuel locally - close up, rural area. To me he is one of the top acoustic players in the world. He makes no attempt to have a flashy image, looks like a very regular and humble person, just he way God made him.

But you should see his guitar, it was the most beat up guitar I've ever seen, almost no finish left on the entire face. There is someone who chooses to truly use his guitar, and all the beauty comes out on his playing. He has lot's of humor as well.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

smurphny said:


> One can have too many cars, boats...or wives but never too many guitars As Hendrix once said, "That's alright I still got my guitar."


Smurph,

I finally have to differ with you. You can't easily have too many boats if you have lots of land.  Just can't keep them all in the water.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sky:
I've seen Tommy on TV. He seems to use the entire guitar and that may account for it looking beat up. Have you ever heard the story about when he met Chet Atkins?


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Sky:
> I've seen Tommy on TV. He seems to use the entire guitar and that may account for it looking beat up. Have you ever heard the story about when he met Chet Atkins?


No, do tell! Must have been quite the meeting.

Yes, he did play seemingly every bit of his guitar. Very imaginative and joyful player. I have no idea why he was in my area, but hope he returns.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sky:
It's amost 8pm. I get up at 4:30 am so I can go fishing. I'm knackered.

I'll tell you the Tommy and Chet story tomorrow.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Sky:
> It's amost 8pm. I get up at 4:30 am so I can go fishing. I'm knackered.
> 
> I'll tell you the Tommy and Chet story tomorrow.


Bat: Hey, I got up at 4:30 AM yesterday also to cut firewood. I have a lot of green wood but no seasoned, so I'm getting dead trees enough to burn while waiting for the green to dry. Lots tougher to find and get out.

I was dragging skinny (10 inch) dead white birch 40 ft. long with chain up a narrow one foot slot through the thick woods, trees about 130 ft. in. It reminded me of playing a fish on a line, with the tractor bucket as the pole. The tractor was on the edge of the field. The logs were turning and flopping around the trees as I "reeled" them in by backing up. I enjoyed it. The felling part was harder, the woods being very thick.

As I cut up the birch I thought of *smurph*, making a guitar from trees he cut, and tried to visualize guitar parts in that rosy tan beautiful heartwood. Guess I'm not like Michelangelo, I couldn't see anything in there but firewood, which I'm burning right now. We have a lot of cold coming right away.

No pressure on the story, only if you feel like it. Tommy is teaching some younger men to play guitar his way, they came around this summer and played.

Beautiful purple pink sky right now, sailors take warning!

edit: I cut in the afternoon, to get ready I had to hand split and stack a lot of green wood here to get ready to receive the dead wood in the front of the pile, to burn first.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sky:
No doubt I'll tell the story wrong. But I will stay true to the spirit of the story.

Tommy had been writing to Chet from Australia for some time. Chet had not been paying much attention. One day Chet was doing some work in his Nashville office. Jerry Reed, a good friend of Chet's and a great guitar player, was in the office pickin away while Chet worked. The secretary called Chet and said there was young man downstairs who wanted to speak to him. Chet reluctantly got up and went down to the lobby and met Tommy. They spoke briefly, Chet couldnt help notice the guitar case Tommy had. "Well son, show me what you can do." Tommy played for Chet. " Ok son, come upstairs with me. I have someone you should meet." Tommy accompanied Chet to his office, met Jerry and the two sat and played for two hours while Chet quietly went back to his work.

Imagine being a fly on that wall.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

Bob,

Thanks for the story. I know Tommy said he listened to Chet Atkins records when growing up.

Pretty brave to head over from Australia to Chet's office and ask to see him. I knew they'd hooked up somehow, but that's a surprising way to do it.

How about a little pressure on the guy when trying to relax and play his axe? Good thing he wasn't afraid to take his guitar anywhere he went!

It bears repeating, when I saw him the summer before last, his guitar was the most beat up guitar I've ever seen in my life. He uses it, and it shows in his playing. He puts the "play" in playing, he seems to get every possible sound out of that beat up guitar, doing things I'd never seen done.


----------



## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

No, Bagpipes.


----------

