# need help and advice -mid cruise keel crack



## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

Hi
We're headed to honduras in a recently purchased 1969 36' C&C Frigate. She's been a great boat, and took us across from Florida to San Pedro in 6 days! The issue is once we arrived here and took a bit of respite from the norte's causing the gulf current to stack up 8' against 30-40kt winds was after doing a routine dive on the hull we've got a 8" vertical crack in our keel, from the bottom up, about an inch wide in the lead. I'm not sure how to proceed. I don't have photos yet but i'm working on it. it's from the base of the keel vertically up 8" or so, on both sides, and about 3/4" - 1" wide. 
I imagine when we got into the interesting weather situation a preexisting crack from a previous grounding must have worked open as the boat flexed in the swell. 
I can keep it in calm water and get to rio dulce, or if I can find out this is going to sail I can continue to utila and do the ~80m crossing, and then get to rio dulce later as planned and pull the boat. It made it across the gulf of mexico, the yucatan current, and a series of whuppings so far. 
I know this isn't good, I'm trying to find out what I need to do to get it repaired. what is a guy at a yard going to tell me needs to be done? I just bought the boat a week ago, it's officially for sale now, not that it'll be easy to sell after this, but yeah... there's a crack in my keel. not good. all advice is appreciated, we're forced to leave on monday due to our visa limitations, so we're scrambling.
Thank You for any advice,
Best;
-Chance.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Is it the keel/centerboard version? is the ballast package bolted into a molded cutout? 
Wondering if the above is true then you're getting a separation of the ballast plug from the molded part of the hull... any keel/ballast bolts in the bilge area?

Sorry, not sure of how this boat is constructed so it's difficult to guess. But a vertical crack up both sides suggests something like that is going on... The nearly 1" wide is the really worrisome aspect of this.

Do you know for certain it wasn't there when you first left?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

The first thing I would do is to put some underwater epoxy on that crack - if you have enough, of course. May not help too much in the long run but will make that spot stronger until you fix it properly.


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

This is the full keel centerboard version, there are bolts in the bilge and they are good when inspected. I dove on her before we left, I didn't see anything that warranted further inspection, definitely not a huge crack. I feel like we've been sailing with her the whole while.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

To stop a crack from getting longer you drill a hole at the end of the crack. A standard procedure for many materials.
I'm not a professional, but I suspect the crack should be filled, as well as the hole, and continue the trip. 
Since it is vertical, the crack should not have another consequence. If it was horizontal, there could be an other consequence.
Of most importance, is to drill the hole, to stop the crack from getting longer. The rest is just filler and cosmetic.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

definitely drill a hole, it will round off the top of the crack and keep the stress from finding another weak spot to continue upwards.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

You need to get it out of the water and have a pro look at the problem. You need to do this before you go back out to sea. That is the bad news.

The good news is assuming it is an encapsulated GRP keel fixing the GRP bit is easy and low tech. GRP guys can work wonders and it does not take long. I might also be tempted to drill through the keel and use some long bolts/studding to hold things together.

Something that is potentially bad news would be finding out that the ballast was iron and that sea water had got in causing rust which expands and that is what caused the split. If that is the case I think you would need to get that rusty iron out somehow and replace with fresh rust free iron or maybe even lead.

Forget about drilling the holes at the end of the crack and going back out to sea. You have a structural failure in a mission critical item. You have to fix it.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

sony2000 said:


> To stop a crack from getting longer you drill a hole at the end of the crack. A standard procedure for many materials.
> I'm not a professional, but I suspect the crack should be filled, as well as the hole, and continue the trip.
> Since it is vertical, the crack should not have another consequence. If it was horizontal, there could be an other consequence.
> Of most importance, is to drill the hole, to stop the crack from getting longer. The rest is just filler and cosmetic.


As a general rule I try to be respectful when I disagree with someone, but IMHO this is very bad, no that's too mild....it is *extraordinarily* bad advice. Haul the boat, do a proper technical evaluation to determine the cause and fix it properly before going to sea again.

P.S. There's a cautionary tale in the original post for those who dream of buying a boat and sailing off to the tropics. Find it?


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

chancemiller said:


> Hi
> We're headed to honduras in a recently purchased 1969 36' C&C Frigate. She's been a great boat, and took us across from Florida to San Pedro in 6 days! The issue is once we arrived here and took a bit of respite from the norte's causing the gulf current to stack up 8' against 30-40kt winds was after doing a routine dive on the hull we've got a 8" vertical crack in our keel, from the bottom up, about an inch wide in the lead. I'm not sure how to proceed. I don't have photos yet but i'm working on it. it's from the base of the keel vertically up 8" or so, on both sides, and about 3/4" - 1" wide.
> I imagine when we got into the interesting weather situation a preexisting crack from a previous grounding must have worked open as the boat flexed in the swell.
> I can keep it in calm water and get to rio dulce, or if I can find out this is going to sail I can continue to utila and do the ~80m crossing, and then get to rio dulce later as planned and pull the boat. It made it across the gulf of mexico, the yucatan current, and a series of whuppings so far.
> ...


Your boat is very similar to my boat and same year. I also have a full encapsulated lead keel with centerboard. I have some detailed plans of the keel and centerboard setup. This might give you/us an idea of what you are dealing with. Is the crack near the centerboard pivot pin? Can you give us a little better idea of the location of the crack? 1" wide? Is it only one side of the trunk? Or running from the trunk slot up towards the stem, straight up the center?

Here is a link to my photobucket pics and plans. If you want the plans in PDF or AutoCAD I can provide that too. CenterboardB321969plan_zps3cfc0c37.jpg Photo by greatfulldad123 | Photobucket


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

haul the boat out first...since its a centerboard "full keel" this mught be the cause of the crack...

no reason to get all bent out of shape...advice is advice, take it or leave it

another point is where he is located right now

real easy to say haul the boat and have a proffesional to look at it, on a 69 boat...in honduras or rio dulce

in rio dulce you have options but I would look for a glass repair guy and not a general "proffesional"

if its the stub per se...and only glass then its an easy fix..like mentioned before if you have lead or iron as well as the centerboard you have more work to do...mostly removal of the centerboard first...

its vey common on small keel centerboarders to have cracks like this...sometimes its caused by overcanvassed sail and pressure on the centerboard for too long, or the board is down and you hit something sideways and this cracks or bends the stub or it simply may just be from old age

you can haulout in pt. barrios, rio dulce and or look for a place to dive real well in clear water(roatan) jeje

for now anything anyone says is just a guess...pics first!

good luck I wish you well

ps. the advice to drill a hole to stop further cracking is far from extremely bad advice, if its just glass its a very good fix...again I stress you must know what(material) is actually cracking...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Delta-T said:


> Your boat is very similar to my boat and same year. I also have a full inculpated led keel with centerboard. I have some detailed plans of the keel and centerboard setup. This might give you/us an idea of what you are dealing with. Is the crack near the centerboard pivot pin? Can you give us a little better idea of the location of the crack? 1" wide? How long? Is it only one side of the trunk? Or running from the trunk slot up towards the stem, straight up the center?
> 
> Here is a link to my photobucket pics and plans. If you want the plans in PDF or AutoCAD I can provide that too. CenterboardB321969plan_zps3cfc0c37.jpg Photo by greatfulldad123 | Photobucket


awesome delta T this is the info the op needs!

he needs to know exactly where and what material is cracked

most centerboarders use a big stub and he ballast is inside the actual stub HULL but not like most encapsulated ballast full keelers...its higher up


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

The keel stub on this vessel is lead and bolted to the hull. The center board is iron.

If I understand correctly the crack is in the lead keel stub. Pretty much the only thing that would cause a crack like this is corrosion and expansion of one or more keel bolts.

If I am correct, this is a critical issue and must be addressed before the boat leaves the harbour. Get her out of the water and get a pro to investigate.

Chances of a 45yr. old salt water boat not having corroded keel bolts is somewhat slim. I have seen a number of younger fresh water C&C's with this issue.


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

The centerboard is completely out of the picture on this one as far as we can tell. It had been secured in the up position by the previous owner at a yard in Florida. I'm going to dive on her this morning with a go pro and see what I can see. I appreciate everyone's advice.


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

Beautiful c&c for sale, classic, I'll make someone a hell of a deal hahaha - wow.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

chancemiller said:


> Beautiful c&c for sale, classic, I'll make someone a hell of a deal hahaha - wow.


Very helpfull


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

the centerboard exerts pressure on the stub...when hard sailing...the centerboard often fairs well and its the pivot bolts or other parts of a keel centerboarder that usually fail...

I think thats what I was trying to imply if your stub is ALL LEAD then you have ways of fixing that too...

can you motor safely to a haulout?

cheers


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

I understand that you have not used the CB. I have heard of damage being done to the keel if the cable holding the CB up breaks and CB swings hard down. Mostly on very heavy CBs. PO may have had this issue.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Wondering if there was a pre purchase survey done... was the boat hauled and inspected prior to departure.. if so was there any indication of this developing crack? If not the fact that it occurred and spread to nearly 1" wide over the time of this last passage is quite disconcerting.

I think the ballast plug is separating from the hull.. best guess is you're looking at something like below:



The vertical separation is at the back of the ballast plug?? Regardless of the cause it needs to be properly addressed/assessed before carrying on.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Delta-T said:


> I understand that you have not used the CB. I have heard of damage being done to the keel if the cable holding the CB up breaks and CB swings hard down. Mostly on very heavy CBs. PO may have had this issue.


Remotely possible but unlikely. Had this been the case the fracture would have started inside the keel stub slot, not on both sides of the stub as the OP described.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Faster said:


> I think the ballast plug is separating from the hull..


If I am right about corrosion expansion of keel bolts, separation woud be the next logical step in the process.

Another thought .... When you dive for another look, See if you can find any evidence of filler in the crack. If this was a cover up job of an existing flaw you may have some avenue of recompense.


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

boatpoker said:


> Remotely possible but unlikely. Had this been the case the fracture would have started inside the keel stub slot, not on both sides of the stub as the OP described.


Did I miss something in the OPs post? Where is he stating the crack is both sides or cracked through?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Looks that way ....

_ I don't have photos yet but i'm working on it. it's from the base of the keel vertically up 8" or so, on both sides, and about 3/4" - 1" wide. _


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

So you bought a boat that had its CB permanently placed in the up position. Then you went and crossed the Gulf in 30-40 knot winds, 8' swells for a number of days, stressing the older boat such that she cracked the encapsulated lead keel. What to do? The closest adequate repair port is Rio Deluce, about 80m away. It doesn't look as if the lead on one side of the keel, will fall of, and take a piece of the hull with it.
So its a no brainer. Non essential crew, and children should find other means of transport to Rio Deluce. The boat should be sailed or motor sailed there in 4' or less swells, and under 20knot winds. And after your arrival, check to see if the crack has grown.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sony2000 said:


> So you bought a boat that had its CB permanently placed in the up position. Then you went and crossed the Gulf in 30-40 knot winds, 8' swells for a number of days, stressing the older boat such that she cracked the encapsulated lead keel. .


The lead is not encapsulated so if Faster and I are right, a large chunk could very well fall off.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

So it would fall off and.... There is one vertical crack, not 2 vertical cracks nor are there any horizontal cracks showing. I doubt that anything will fall off on the trip.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sony2000 said:


> So it would fall off and.... There is one vertical crack, not 2 vertical cracks nor are there any horizontal cracks showing. I doubt that anything will fall off on the trip.


One vertical crack on each side (as described by OP) could be considered as two vertical cracks or one vertical crack going completely through to the other side. Either way, something very dramatic is going on.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Is there enough solid material in the undamaged keel for OP to install fore-and-aft stabilizing pieces, - as in 'sistering' damaged frames? For example, if he could through-bolt some 2x4 or 2x6 to hold it together long enough to get to a haulout without doing permanent damage to the rest of the keel.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

It would be nice to have a follow up to these posted emergencies.
Did you reach the Rio Deluce?
Did all the professional opinions about the keel, differ?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Some of the advice, including mine, has included drilling holes and holding things together with studding or long bolts.

Assuming the job has to be done in the water how would you go about it. 

Has anybody used an air drill underwater?

I guess I would try my 9.6 volt cordless which is now set up to run directly of the 12 volt house supply on a cable. Blow it out afterwards and then hit it with WD 40.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

TQA, the up close opinions on the warranted repair, are yet to be done. Personally I would sail the boat as is to a haul out, get a number of opinions of the things to do, then choose the best action.
From what I read, he might even put a for sale sign on it. 
I would even hire Christain H. to give an opinion. He isn't that far away.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

TQA said:


> Some of the advice, including mine, has included drilling holes and holding things together with studding or long bolts.
> 
> Assuming the job has to be done in the water how would you go about it.
> 
> ...


My cordless, 'Old Faithful':










http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brace_(tool)


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

sony2000 said:


> TQA, the up close opinions on the warranted repair, are yet to be done. Personally I would sail the boat as is to a haul out, get a number of opinions of the things to do, then choose the best action.
> From what I read, he might even put a for sale sign on it.
> I would even hire Christain H. to give an opinion. He isn't that far away.


id go no problem...its a half day drive to rio dulce...

anytime during the week

since the op is not around lately I hope he made it safely to harbor on the coast...

rio dulce or even pt barrios can haulout

we were about to do that on our dry canal expedition we wanted to do trucking the boat from el salvador to the cariibbean via pt. barrios

its been 10 years or so so dont know what they have now

in any case dont know what the op plans...if just for sale and cut losses no reason to go crazy on a major fix


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

this is what I found out:
the previous owner had located a crack in the FRP from whatever ballast package was installed. Apparently over time this crack opened up, it's FRP, not lead, that's cracked, and when I dove on it there was marine growth living in the crack - it had been there for awhile. The boat was in the water during purchase and I missed it when I dove on it outside the harbor. I don't know if it was this bad when we left or not, but considering the large barnacles living inside the crack, it was. It's just forward of the CB and for whatever reason I wasn't able to load the images off my gopro in san pedro. When I saw the damage had existed (likely) prior to our departure from florida, I figured it had already made us 850nm through some hairy enough business, and it wasn't likely to break up on the way to honduras. we took off and 26 hours / 138nm later we arrived. I'm yet to dive on it, partially because I'm worried about what I'll find out. Boat is for sale, and the next stop will be the dulce in good weather, if the crack hasn't expanded pending the next dive. If it has, then we'll be making other plans.
17k obo - 36' C&C 1969 frigate, email for details.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Chance.. thanks for coming back..

This does sound like a long standing issue, and points to the need to do due diligence prior to writing a cheque! Obviously a survey would have found this right away.

In any event it's your problem now. I still believe the separation is between the molded glass/fairing of the hull and the aft end of the bolted on lead ballast section of the nose of the keel (see my sketch in a previous post) It's really the only thing that explains the vertical nature of the crack, esp on both sides. Seems to me he proper fix for this would be to drop the ballast, clean up the area, reinstall and rebed the ballast and fair in the joint once again. Doing this work in a low cost haulout facility may pay dividends in peace of mind for future use, or make it much easier to sell the boat. Most of the cost of such a job will be labour, and if you do it yourself this could work out to your advantage.

I think you need to disclose the nature of the issue to any prospective buyer, and the optics of that will probably pressure your asking price lower still, possibly more than it would cost to fix it assuming it's as simple an issue as I think/hope....


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

chancemiller said:


> 17k obo - 36' C&C 1969 frigate, email for details.


I can see that you are an eternal optimist.


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## nighthawk (Sep 25, 2013)

TQA said:


> Has anybody used an air drill underwater?


Just a quick aside--I have actually used one underwater and they work great as long as you direct the bubble stream away from what you need to see(best advice is to use it upside down, with the handle pointed towards surface and your head off to the side).

Another note-the one I used was in fresh water, and was lubed really well before and after the operation. Still seized up solid two days later. I would advise carrying a cheap model for emergency underwater work, but plan on having it be a one-job affair--unless you get really lucky.


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

krisscross said:


> I can see that you are an eternal optimist.


I could be doing worse!


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

nighthawk said:


> Another note-the one I used was in fresh water, and was lubed really well before and after the operation. Still seized up solid two days later. I would advise carrying a cheap model for emergency underwater work, but plan on having it be a one-job affair--unless you get really lucky.


Use a small drill in a big ziploc bag. If you work quickly, you will only get a very small amount of water through a hole made by the spinning bit. Don't put much air in the bag and work the trigger through the plastic from outside. Not a guarantee that the drill will be OK, but a much better chance for saving it.


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

Schroeder Hand Drill 1/4-Inch Capacity - [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@31fWW98WCTL
Yankee Screwdriver Maintenance


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Still seized up solid two days later."
For tools not designed to be used under water, the best bet is a fresh water soak and rinse afterwards, followed by an alcohol (isopropanol, as high a percentage as you can get) soak and rinse. The alcohol binds to the water and helps dry the tool out thoroughly, although it may be a problem if there is shellac or similar materials inside. Air dry to get the alcohol and water out, using a blower if you can. Then shoot it full of WD-40 or a similar displacement/protectant afterwards because "just" clean bare metal likes to rust, too.

The big advantage to the brace and bit, or hand drill, is that you can see everything, rinse everything, protect everything easily when you're done.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

Chancemiller. ONE OPTION COULD BE, to haul out with the keel off the sand. I would ask Christian H. to estimate and repair the crack. I would also try to see if the centerboard could be operational because it most likely is a pivot and cable problem.
One or two months later, sail back to Florida to market the boat.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

chancemiller said:


> The centerboard is completely out of the picture on this one as far as we can tell. It had been secured in the up position by the previous owner at a yard in Florida. I'm going to dive on her this morning with a go pro and see what I can see. I appreciate everyone's advice.


This throws up a red flag for me. If the previous owner was not willing to fix the centerboard, then what else did he just put a patch on?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

sony2000 said:


> TQA, the up close opinions on the warranted repair, are yet to be done. *Personally I would sail the boat as is to a haul out,* get a number of opinions of the things to do, then choose the best action.
> From what I read, he might even put a for sale sign on it.
> I would even hire Christain H. to give an opinion. He isn't that far away.


Hmm go offshore with a known major keel defect.

I would want a liferaft, handheld VHF with spare batteries, epirb and a buddy boat. I would also be sleeping in the cockpit.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

chancemiller said:


> this is what I found out:
> the previous owner had located a crack in the FRP from whatever ballast package was installed. Apparently over time this crack opened up, it's FRP, not lead, that's cracked, and when I dove on it there was marine growth living in the crack - it had been there for awhile. The boat was in the water during purchase and I missed it when I dove on it outside the harbor. I don't know if it was this bad when we left or not, but considering the large barnacles living inside the crack, it was. It's just forward of the CB and for whatever reason I wasn't able to load the images off my gopro in san pedro. When I saw the damage had existed (likely) prior to our departure from florida, I figured it had already made us 850nm through some hairy enough business, and it wasn't likely to break up on the way to honduras. we took off and 26 hours / 138nm later we arrived. I'm yet to dive on it, partially because I'm worried about what I'll find out. Boat is for sale, and the next stop will be the dulce in good weather, if the crack hasn't expanded pending the next dive. If it has, then we'll be making other plans.
> 17k obo - 36' C&C 1969 frigate, email for details.


Sounds a little fishy. The lead on these boats was not originally encapsulated. Sounds like a cover up job that is now failing.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

Making the best of a bad situation, at destination I would look for a haul out with electricity, owners living on their boats, security, fresh water, and close to a good restaurant and a bar. Labor there isn't expensive, and may even be cheap. The opposite of Florida. No wonder the PO patched up the boat!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

sony2000 said:


> Making the best of a bad situation, at destination I would look for a haul out with electricity, owners living on their boats, security, fresh water, and close to a good restaurant and a bar. Labor there isn't expensive, and may even be cheap. The opposite of Florida. No wonder the PO patched up the boat!


If the OP is still thinking of heading to Roatan, his best bet might be to eventually head over to the mainland, and do a haulout in La Cieba...

LA CEIBA**SHIPYARD & MARINA - Home


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yup I woukd hop about and stop in roatan do ease the pain if you will, go to utila and have some fun...then in clear real clear water check it out...maybe an underwater pic

I havent been to la ceiba but I can only assume they are good to go for a simple haulout...

again any pics would be great


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

FYI: A friend has 2 C&C Corvettes and he was surprised to find out ,that both CBs are made of stainless steel.
The crack on the Frigate was a result of hitting bottom by the PO. He may have done nothing to hide it, and just sold it.
I may have the chance to ask him how he would repair the same sort of accident if it happened on his Corvette. Their full keel construction must be almost identical to the Frigate.
Come to think of it, the best shipwright opinions in the world for this repair, would come out of Ontario, Canada. These boats were all made there.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

FYI: Some good news. The Corvette Association members say that the CBs don't break, they just get held up, by oxidation and marine growth. Pull it down, clean it up and epoxy coat it. 
From the same source probably the Frigate's hull is 2 layers of 5/8'' fiberglass laminated together. The lead being on the exterior. So the repair should not be complicated.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sony2000 said:


> FYI: A friend has 2 C&C Corvettes and he was surprised to find out ,that both CBs are made of stainless steel.
> The crack on the Frigate was a result of hitting bottom by the PO. He may have done nothing to hide it, and just sold it.
> I may have the chance to ask him how he would repair the same sort of accident if it happened on his Corvette. Their full keel construction must be almost identical to the Frigate.
> Come to think of it, the best shipwright opinions in the world for this repair, would come out of Ontario, Canada. These boats were all made there.


You are getting bad information. Both Corvette and Frigates are stick built boats with a single skin laminate, no liner or secondary molding. Both boats were built with iron centreboards and bolted on lead ballast keels with integral trunks so your friends boat must have had his replaced at some point if they are stainless steel. All this info is right in the original brochures which are available online.


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm trying to get these photos online for you guys to check out. I have confirmed that the crack is in the FRP, not the lead, that there's a lot of marine growth inside of it (it was definitely there before I left, we just missed it when we swam on the hull or it had been covered up). I did message the PO and ask if the damage was known before I bought the boat, her hull had been cleaned 2x per month in the marina, basically I was lied to, and didn't see it myself when we swam on her. She mentioned a small crack where the vertical crack is now in her original survey, but that was the end of it. it's not her fault as a seller it's my fault as a purchaser. I'm hoping as the crack is all FRP it'll be "easier" to repair. I wont have to drop a ballast package or remold a lead shoe or anything. 

We took her to Utila and she's anchored in the bay. The ballast package isn't encapsulated as mentioned above, the crack is in the FRP. Roatan is ~40m away, Ceiba is ~24 miles away (but can be a sketchy spot, mainland Honduras), and rio dulce is ~127 miles away and is my preferred yard. There are also brokers there, I'm hoping to be able to leave the boat with a yard, get a quote on repair, and decide whether to repair and sell or sell as a project. 

I'll try to get some photos up for you guys and I can't appreciate all your comments enough.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Thanks for keeping us informed. Best of luck in fixing/finding the real issues.

Very odd that the moulded FRP would crack in that manner - when you get pics join Photobucket.com, upload your pics there and paste the IMG CODE link option into your posts here to show us the pics.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

man id really wish I was there...we have been wanting to go to roatan with the newborn now for ages...

well

that is good news in my opinion

glass work and or patchwork with fillers is a good way to fix underwtar glass...

we had the exact same thing going on on my boat

sea creatures and growth had expanded an otherwise small crack...

since my keel was iron rust happens and we had to clean and treat all of it first

honestly I think its a simple fix...just needs time and cleanup and simple glasswork


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

You need 10 posts to be able to post links and pictures.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

rack em up

photobucket is what I use


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"You need 10 posts to be able to post links and pictures. "

Yes and no. Anyone can post enough of a URL to let others go to a picture. And since Sailnet usually doesn't _host _pictures, but only links out to them...the process is pretty much the same either way.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to be baffled at how anything "keel"ish can have a slight crack that becomes an inch-wide crack up both sides of a keel trunk. (Or whatever the case may be.) Sounds more like someone played origami with the hull if a crack spread that way.


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm going to spam 2 more posts and then shoot the link up - it didn't like the URL 

also, as of this post, it's 86% uploaded. hopefully it finishes before I have to run out the door. 
Thanks again guys. I have some photos from after I reached utila, and when I saw them I thought "oh man it got bigger" but I don't actually think it did after finally seeing my shots from San Pedro. I'm wondering (among other things) if I'm right in assuming this damage has been there for awhile, and also what I'm going to have to do to fix it / get it fixed when I do take it to the yard. If I have to pay a guy in rio dulce to do this, I wonder what I'm looking at hours wise in labor.


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

and post number nine...


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

post number ten....


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

BAM currently @ 96%, forgive the shaky camera work, I was diving with a reg and a tank, no BCD, no weights. I borrowed some pink flippers too, which were awesome.






it's uploaded but still "processing" as of 2:20pm est


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Well that is a great video clip of what looks like a serious issue to me. 

Do you think the front part of the keel is lead. If so are there internal keel bolts?

If you intend to move the boat how about getting some big ratchet straps like truckers use and putting them right around the boat at the keel where it is coming loose to hold it on.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm sticking to my original theory... that's the ballast(Lead) separating from the main hull moulding. It's far too clean a break to be fractured glass, too symmetrical side to side, and the way the crack carries up at that nice straight angle and turns to parallel the hull is exactly the way it would likely have been built.

Nice job on the Video... nice clear water!

The drawing of a Corvette below is very similar and the ballast package arrangement is quite clear:


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## HEXE (Jan 30, 2014)

yah the straps sound like a good idea, where the crack curves and starts following the hull bugs me... drill it and fill it if you can. 
if you can get her out of the water do it... or clean as much of that crack out and fill it with epoxy to stablize it ... 

i was on an alaska air stuck in sitka. the plane had a problem....
looking out the window there is a guy with a cordless drill and a roll of duck tape on the wing... i knew we would be home soon after seeing that.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm with Faster on this, but would speculate further.
What the OP has is a crack in the keel stub, which extends down into the SLOT that was manufactured as a result of a solid ballast(?) in the front, joining to the centerboard trunk abaft it.
I'd expect that SLOT was originally filled with a filler, and when a PO rammed the front of the keel into something hard and solid, they popped out some of the filler (the rest would fall out over time) and cracked the keel stub.

All the forces and all the damage line up to indicate one frontal impact "folding" the boat along the dotted line, the weakness caused by the slot and joined structures.

The problem now is that the entire lower hull may be structurally damaged. That kind of force tends to break glass fibers, unseen in the frp matrix, and then there is no structural strength and the entire frp mass fails at a later date.

Most commonly seen as damage immediately aft a fin keel after that strikes a rock hard enough to swing the keel "back and up" crushing part of the hull behind it.

If there's no visible damage inside the boat and no sign of repairs...I'd take it to where it had to go, but I'd definitely file a float plan, check the distress gear and the insurance policy, and keep an extra sharp watch for the entire trip.

I'm betting that when a yard hauls it, they find definite signs of repairs in the front of the keel. "New" fairing and paint, if nothing else.

I'm not licensed to take bets, or practice structural engineering, across interstate lines. But damn, that's impact damage.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

HEXE said:


> yah the straps sound like a good idea, where the crack curves and starts following the hull bugs me... drill it and fill it if you can.
> if you can get her out of the water do it... or clean as much of that crack out and fill it with epoxy to stablize it ...
> 
> i was on an alaska air stuck in sitka. the plane had a problem....
> looking out the window there is a guy with a cordless drill and a roll of duck tape on the wing... i knew we would be home soon after seeing that.


I'd be concerned that there's rust/corrosion/whatever happening in the keelbolt area that's swelling and trying to push the lead ballast off/away from the hull cavity. A "fill and patch" job is nothing but a bandaid, and quite likely what the PO attempted, if anything...

This is a huge "pay attention" flag for those considering buying a boat sans survey/haulout.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

hellosailor said:


> I'm with Faster on this, but would speculate further.
> ......


HS, the drawing of the Corvette (a smaller sister) shows the ballast plug, bolted in, and it appears to wrap around the CB pin location and goes back about a third of the board.. that lines up pretty well with what I think we saw in the video..

As to determining structural damage, I suspect that will be even more difficult than what we'd expect to see with a fin keel..


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

OMG, that's not good. IMO, stress crack from where the CB pivot is installed. The pin of the CB is a weak point in the hull. To replace the pin and CB you cut a hole on both sides of the hull and drive the pin out. Leaving a weak spot on both side of the hull and that looks like it runs right up and stops at the pin. About 12" back from the start of the CB trunk slot and up 12" to 16".


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)




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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

And that does not look like an old crack!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well Im at the mountains and internet is slow but hearing others it seems more damage than initially thought?

bummer


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

I'm wondering if the OP has excessive slack in the bow and stern stays?


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

Chancemiller, if the boat was crack free would you have sailed it back to Florida, to be sold or kept?
I'm thinking that keel repairs involving the structure of the boat, and done in the USA, cost close to the value of the boat.
If fixed in Central America, would the lower labor costs, round out to a total repair of $5000 or less? The CB would work again.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm thinking that since the separation is so clean and straight, that the lead was bolted to the keel prior to the centerboard trunk, and that the trunk has not been moved or damaged.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Delta-T said:


> I'm wondering if the OP has excessive slack in the bow and stern stays?


Did you mean to say excess tension?


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## sulli (Mar 9, 2013)

That sure looks like a factory joint that the filler broke out of. Possible cause I see--the CB broke loose slammed into the forward end of CB trunk cracking out the factory filler. The yard worker did not clean it properly before refilling and it cracked out. I do not know prices in Honduras but I would think 10-15 hours + materials. It does not look like a difficult job, hardest part manhandling CB in and out, If I did it I would grind it down and glass over it rather than rely only on filler on a joint that wide. Only my opinion IIWMB,(if it was my boat).


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## cambum (Mar 12, 2013)

Since the Frigate is an external ballast keel, this crack could simply be the fairing filler falling out between the lead & the deadwood section of the hull. If there is no water intrusion in the bilge area this would reinforce this theory.


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

Faster said:


> Did you mean to say excess tension?


Lack of tension. If the hull structure is giving way, bending. The movement would be exaggerated at the bow and stern and the stays would be noticeably slack.


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

IMO As I noted in previous post, this looks to be damage from the CB cable breaking and the CB swinging down free and causing the cracking from the pivot pin down.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

cambum said:


> Since the Frigate is an external ballast keel, this crack could simply be the fairing filler falling out between the lead & the deadwood section of the hull. If there is no water intrusion in the bilge area this would reinforce this theory.


Seems an excessive gap for a factory fit..



Delta-T said:


> Lack of tension. If the hull structure is giving way, bending. The movement would be exaggerated at the bow and stern and the stays would be noticeably slack.


I see what you mean... that kind of deformation could be caused by excess rig tension in the first place, but seems more likely on a lighter-built fin keeler.

The idea of a CB drop jarring things loose is interesting.. It would be good to know just how it's currently "pinned"


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

Faster said:


> Seems an excessive gap for a factory fit..
> 
> I see what you mean... that kind of deformation could be caused by excess rig tension in the first place, but seems more likely on a lighter-built fin keeler.
> 
> The idea of a CB drop jarring things loose is interesting.. It would be good to know just how it's currently "pinned"


The blunt force of what could be several hundreds of pounds CB, I have heard of CBs weighing 700 lbs, with the leverage point (pivot pin) less than 20% the length of the CB would increase that weight x 4, and that does not include the momentum forces. This is a known problem. Mine is fiberglass and needs counter weights to sink it and have been lucky to date having sheave issues before cable breaking. I have heard of others sealing the trunk off. Boat will be very tender without it, but Op bought it with the CB non functional. This might be his only option here for a fix.


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## cambum (Mar 12, 2013)

Having seen your video (nice job) you are looking at the exposed keel hull join. The fairing filler has fallen out for any number of reasons- probably just old brittle polyester body fill- but a cosmetic problem as I see it. Back in the old days, marrying up the lead keels to the keel stubs was not an exact science. Liberal amounts of filler was added to create a fair surface. When you get around to hauling & re-fairing, it would be a good idea to re-torque your keel bolts before starting the work. I worked for builders back then.


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

That's potentially awesome news, I'm really glad I got that video up. 
I was going to sail it back to FL and sell it, but I think it'll end up in rio dulce, in a yard, getting fixed and then going up for sale. If the weather is bad for my window to sail, I'll take it to Roatan, pull it, get it fixed, and put it up for sale. 
Either way, she's for sale, it was the initial plan to do the excursion and then try to get some of the money back (never really to make anything, I expected to take a hit, but I didn't expect to find this.). 

Either way it's ~150mi to Rio D. , half of which is relatively exposed, and ~40mi to Roatan. Rio Dulchisme has better facilities / brokers / community, I'd like to get it there.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I think you should contact C&C yachts. You might need to sweet talk someone to get to someone who know. You need one of their engineers who can look at the actual drawings. Tell him you won't hold him responsible, but you are stranded and you want an educated guess. They would have the insight to actually know.

Contact C&C
Tel: 401-247-3000
Email: [email protected]

You might strip the plastic away and put also put a plastic crack monitor across the gap in the steel to monitor it.

Standard Concrete Crack Monitor


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

cambum said:


> Having seen your video (nice job) you are looking at the exposed keel hull join. The fairing filler has fallen out for any number of reasons- probably just old brittle polyester body fill- but a cosmetic problem as I see it. Back in the old days, marrying up the lead keels to the keel stubs was not an exact science. Liberal amounts of filler was added to create a fair surface. When you get around to hauling & re-fairing, it would be a good idea to re-torque your keel bolts before starting the work. I worked for builders back then.


The above advice is not likely to be correct, much as you might like it to be.

Something structural has clearly deformed or broken to allow the front part of the keel to rotate away from the center.

While it could be old damage I would think it more likely to be recent. Strap it up and get it to a haulout facility. I would have a very close look at the internal structure at the very front oif the keel. I suspect you fill find upward deformation.

Oh and an FYI polyester body filler is not suitable for underwater use.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Having looked at the video, I too think something more than crack filler, being old, just crumbled away. If that had been the case, it most likely would have fallen away in an irregular fashion in small amounts in a single place. With the size of the opening and the crack on both sides, I believe something has shifted. Possibilities include hard contact with some other object (likely from boat slamming down vertically onto the hard object such as bottom or rock), keel bolts failing, or possibly hull being overstressed from too much tension on rigging, probably over many years, and perhaps in combination with fatigue failure from years of hard use.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

Chancemiller, Roatan could be limited for this type of repair. Considering everything needed for a good, low cost repair, Rio Deluce is the place to be.
You came this far, so I don't doubt your skill, and there is a chance the crack hasn't changed since you left Florida. Why? Because the CB hasn't been able to make it worse!
P.S. The C&C Corvette association has a forum. There, you definitely can find some info, from guys that have been there and done that. The hull structures are the same.


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## chancemiller (Jan 18, 2014)

I think Rio Dulce is where I'm off to. The C&C folks were regrettably unable to offer any advice as the old boatworks burned decades ago and there's nobody there familiar with the Frigate. I'll wait for weather and make the transit. I think the CB is to blame for this, I don't think the damage has gotten worse in awhile based on marine growth alone, but man... what a thing to find after a trip across the gulf of mexico. It's like speeding on the freeway and getting out for fuel to realize you've got 2 lug nuts left. 
Anyway. Not much I can do - she's happily anchored and she'll stay that way until it's time to move. I just wish I knew what to tell the boat yard in dulce as far as what needs to be done to fix the boat properly. I guess it'll be easier to look at once we get there and get her out of the water. I just don't want to be bent over a barrel not knowing what really needs to happen.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Chance,

The question is whether your separation crack is just the C&C version of the famous "Catalina smile" and you just need to fair the crack (or drop, fair, and reattach for extra points), or if this is evidence of some event that damaged the keelstub/ballast joint.

The Frigate's keel entry is very gentle, and the darn thing only draws 3.5'. I find it hard to believe even a hard grounding would have produced such damage. This is not a boat you can hurt by blocking the keel wrong when on the hard - keel load is spread over almost the entire waterline length.

If the board banging down could have done it, you should see deformation in the glass part of the slot...

I am leaning towards the happy end of the possibilities here. The cracks look very clean, like they're right along the ballast/glass joint.

Can you get some video or pics of your bilge along the keel, all along? Look for stress cracks in gelcoat or any evidence of glass flexing or moving.

Good luck!


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

I would say the cause is a 95% chance that the cast iron CB has fallen down a few times, to hit its stop or rest, causing the crack and leading to the filler to fall out.
The "stop" has its strength from the joining of the left side of the hull being laminated to the right half of the hull. Each is 5/8" thick.
There doesn't seem to be any other failure, than along the crack, which may follow the shelf that the CB rests on.
Is that shelf independent of the rest of the keel aft of there? Could be!
My C&C designed, cast iron CB ,was changed to fiberglass by a PO. They can be a loose cannon.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

If you'd like to talk to a couple of original C&C employees try

Nick Bailey at Bristol Marine. Nick now writes all the FRP repair articles for DIY Boat Magazine.

or Rob McLachlan of South Shore Yachts


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## meteuz (May 13, 2010)

I am also going to second the opinion that there seems to have been a good amount of filler that got knocked out of a large gap that was probably there from the day the boat was built. The most likely cause for that would be some motion in the ballast. I don't think it moved by an inch so as to create all of that gap, but even a slight, say 1/16 inch, motion would cause the filler to come off. Are the keel bolts accessible? Are they tight? Is there any water or rust stains oozing around them? Any stress cracks in the fiberglass near the nuts? Maybe the glass got crushed a tiny bit, giving the bolts some wiggle room.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

chancemiller said:


> BAM currently @ 96%, forgive the shaky camera work, I was diving with a reg and a tank, no BCD, no weights. I borrowed some pink flippers too, which were awesome.
> 
> boat hull san pedro - YouTube
> 
> it's uploaded but still "processing" as of 2:20pm est


finally have internet to se this

ok

here goes

this is just about as an easy a fix as saying this is catastrophic

if you look at the seam its flush...in other words the two sides both the keel and stub are flush and smooth meaning what has heppend is that over time THE FILLER has been able to fall out

this can be caused by

a shift in the keel
loose keel bolts if any
flexy hull, oil canning etc...
*age*

or like others have mentioned REPEEATED releasing of the cb fully...slamming against stub

as you can see the "damage" is in the *aft* area of the keel hull stub joint MEANING that there has been forces involved "MOVING" the keel forward in other words this has been caused by repeated forward shifting

the good news for those with a keen EYE

is there is not lateral or torsional movement of the keel, in otherwords its* in the same plane* as the stub(cb hole if you will)

so the fix is simply to follow the line of the keel hull joint

what you are seeing is the line grow and grow...

more apparent stb side then port but that doesnt mean the gap or line is not there, simply that the joint is being exposed little by little...

so you haul out...grind away and bevel keel hull joint line(a good diagram of the keel ballast would help by looking at the boats plans)

then you clean, rinse, clean and acetone or alcohol the joint

smack in some 5200 fast cure

torque keel bolts while sitting on keel a bit to add pressure...squeeze out excess, the you have your preference of fairing compunds on top of the 5200

jet bond works by sherwin williams
epoxy and talc
epoxy and microballoons(hard)
polyester an talc
a quick wrap with fine glass mat and glass over

fill up with underwater epoxy

the list is endless

some cheap options or some expensive options

on my boat I went the 5200 fast cure route, since we dealt with tides, quick glass work and faring, priming and the antifouling

my gap was 2 inches big at the forward part of the keel...caused by ORIGINAL FILLER falling off and failing....btw it was a combo of sealant, bondo type filler and gelcoat

FROM THE FACTORY...absolute crap work if you ask me especially on a new boat...big tolerances were accpeted at the time...and sloppy work was normal

*but standard* back in the day

so that is my advice

this is not catastrophic in any sense

you can call me at (503) 7412-4576 if you need help with translating once you get to rio dulce or wherever

christian


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

a vid or pic of the leading edge of the keel would tell us more if this was caused by a frontal impact of the keel

this can cause the aft end if the keel to detach if you will and sink in the aft stringers or bottom of hull...but I dont think this is your case as you would of shown us this first

good luck


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> finally have internet to se this
> 
> my gap was 2 inches big at the forward part of the keel...caused by ORIGINAL FILLER falling off and failing....btw it was a combo of sealant, bondo type filler and gelcoat


Holy guacamole.

Would be interesting to try to build a reference of keel tolerances for different manufacturers.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I think this woul cause boat owner to crap there pants

Im a full keel lovaholic...but Its not that I dont understand or love fin keelers either

simply out unless buying a swan back in the day most production cruisers had these little issues

the point is most guys never know whats going on...its not like 90% percent of owners rebed their keels right?

so you never know


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

I feel a sigh of relief! The design of the CB keel should be able to take the forces of a CB hitting bottom, being kicked up, and dropping down with a bit of a bang. 
Being an older boat, a lot of filler, let go.
If this theory proves correct, epoxy the CB, do the crack, and she would pass any survey of the keel.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

That would be a very happy outcome.. hopefully that's the case.

But man, that's a lot of 'filler'.... just sayin'....


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

unfortunately for me I still have a leak somewhere...either through the keel bolts or the keel hull joint

bummer only so much you can do 6 hours at a time with tides...

oh well

Im not immune to leaky boats apparently as having owned a wooden classic has taught me before!


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> unfortunately for me I still have a leak somewhere...either through the keel bolts or the keel hull joint
> 
> bummer only so much you can do 6 hours at a time with tides...
> 
> ...


How fast? Are all your through-hulls good? Stuffing box stuffed? Is the leak salt or fresh? Could be a hidden water tank leak, as someone had a while back. Do you have a shore-side connection that could be leaking? It's not raining in through an open port is it? 

Do you have powder you could put down around possible sources?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Last summer I sailed a Bristol 32 that had a centerboard that was not operative.

I found that close hauled the boat had very bad weather helm.
The explanation was that since the boat was slipping sideways as much as forward the barn door rudder was pushed to cause the weather helm.

So if you can get a chance you might want to fix the centerboard so your boat will sail better.

Unless of course your model behaves differently.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

manatee said:


> How fast? Are all your through-hulls good? Stuffing box stuffed? Is the leak salt or fresh? Could be a hidden water tank leak, as someone had a while back. Do you have a shore-side connection that could be leaking? It's not raining in through an open port is it?
> 
> Do you have powder you could put down around possible sources?


well my boat is still "open" to the elements if you will as its still under constructuion

I do have a very loose stuffing box...its about 1 drip every 8 seconds and it looks like Ill need to either repack it or take the shaft out since Im engineless at the moment

no rain lately so its not that and the water is salty but of course I had water in the bilges for over a year from said stuffing box

we tightened the stuffuing box and its better but last time I was at the boat last thrusday I had 3 galons or so of water in 1 week or so

the only working throughull at the moment is the head...works fine no leaks others are shut and clean...

so dunno

whats 8 drips a minute equate to?

anywhoo Im bummed but its to be expected honestly, in the near future a refairing and rebedding of the keel with new or added bolts is in the books!

maybe in panama


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I hope RICH H doesnt mind me doing this but this is from the how much water in the bilge is normal thread

*STANDARD 'leakage rate' for a 1 to 1-1/4" non-rotating shaft in a standard stuffing box with FLAX packing is 1 to 2 drops per minute.

1 to 2 drops per minute (gtt) X 24 hours X 60 minutes = 1440 to 2880 drops per day.
1 milliliter (ml) = ~18 drops
1440 to 2880 gtt per DAY / 18 = 80 to 160 ml / DAY

1 gallon = 3.78 liters = 3,780 milliliters
3 gallons = 11,340 milliliteters

11340 milliliters ÷ 80 to 160 ml/DAY = ~70 to 140 days = 2.3 to 4.6 MONTHS

Rx: - YOUR DRIP RATE IS PERFECTLY NORMAL*

;-)

seems my loose suffing box pumps more water than I thought...

my calculations of 8 drips a minute or so comes around to 11,500 drips a day!

yikes

anywhoo

seems I need to stop this first then get a nice bilge pump and see if its JUST the stuffing box

heres hoping...I really did not want to careen the boat AGAIN!

sorry for the hijack op, hope the info is usefull for others too

christian


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Hope that your problem is as simple as replacing filler. 

As a former McGregor Venture Owner, a former no-name Kells owner, and now a "production" boat owner (Catalina of the Catalina, Beneteau, Hunter), I always have been made to feel that somehow my boats didn't/don't measure up and I should hang my head in shame when in the presence of true quality boats. You know, those older heavy built, blue water boats with certain names (and newer issues of those same quality names). C&C is one of those famous names so touted. If it's filler in large cracks/ areas where parts do not mate up properly, it sounds like really lousy quality build, even back then. None of my quality deficient boats ever had anything like that. Just saying.

But I do hope that the OP can solve his problem with new filler. It'll be easiest repair.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> I hope RICH H doesnt mind me doing this but this is from the how much water in the bilge is normal thread
> 
> *STANDARD 'leakage rate' for a 1 to 1-1/4" non-rotating shaft in a standard stuffing box with FLAX packing is 1 to 2 drops per minute.
> 
> ...


Dang! You found that before I could post mine.  Well, it was fun figuring it, anyway.

This way gives gallons or liters per day, with a little less guesswork.

How many drips/tablespoon? (Dt)

1 tablespoon=15ml=0.5fl.oz. 
1 gallon=128fl.oz.=3.785L

24 hours/day
X60 min/hr
-----------------
1440 min/day
X 8 drips/min
--------------------
11,520 drips/day (Dd)

Dd/Dt=tablespoons/day (Td)

Td*15=ml/day (Md)

Td*0.5=fl.oz./day (Fd)

128/Fd=gallons/day

3785/Md=liters/day


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> I hope RICH H doesnt mind me doing this but this is from the how much water in the bilge is normal thread
> 
> *STANDARD 'leakage rate' for a 1 to 1-1/4" non-rotating shaft in a standard stuffing box with FLAX packing is 1 to 2 drops per minute.
> 
> ...


Of course since you don't have an engine, then you really should have almost no dripping. But it sounds like it may be the source of your water.(at least some of it) Put in some new packing and you should be OK. If you are thinking of putting an engine back in, you may want to pull the shaft, and put in a temporary plug of some sort, so it does not corrode to the stuffing box and bushing. Then you would have no leaking, and know your shaft should be OK. I can't imagine having it sit still never moving in the water is going to be good for the shaft.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

thanks miata

should of plugged it up when I had the chance but it was tricky with the boat careneed like that

thanks for the tips


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

So, if I'm doing the math correctly, 8 drops per minute is something like 6 gallons a day, right?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

no...it came to about a liter or something

Ill do the math again but say *12k drops a day*

12k/18 equals 666ml so lets call that half a liter a day(not that bad without a bilge pump)

.5l x 7 days I was away from the boat equals 3.5l or lets call that a galon

or
.7l x 7 days = 4.9liters, lets call that 5 or 1 galon one quart or so.

or
1 liter a day(more likely) x 7 = 1 galon 3 quarts which is probably my scenario

and this is for a sitting still shaft..BAD

so I had more than that(like 2.5 galons) so Im getting water from somewhere else obvioulsy OR my stuffing box leak is more than 6-8 drops a minute...

for a while there before tightening the shaft I had a steady stream coming in! jajajaja


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> no...it came to about a liter or something
> 
> Ill do the math again but say *12k drops a day*
> 
> ...


 You are assuming your drops are the same size as the ones in the example you quoted. That may not be the case. If you count how many drops it takes to fill a 
[ tablespoon | 1-oz glass | 1/4-cup measure...] whatever known volume you have handy, you can easily calculate an accurate estimate for your leak rate.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

exactly manatee that is why my next test it to fit a cup under the stuffing box and time how long it takes to fill the do the math for a day

and a week

thats the only accurate measurement as the water salinity, temps etc have evrything to do with what a drop roughly equals! jajaja

thats why Im hoping my leak is in fact bigger since that will rule out keel hull joing leaks which I honestly thought I did a good job fixing...at least from outside it looked sealed up

who knows

Ill test it tomorrow hopefully

thanks


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> exactly manatee that is why my next test it to fit a cup under the stuffing box and time how long it takes to fill the do the math for a day
> 
> and a week
> 
> ...


Good plan.

Would you consider starting a new thread about your leak? It would make it easier to find for others with similar problems. A little copy-and-paste from this thread could show the whole story, from your first "I have a leak." post to its final resolution.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> exactly manatee that is why my next test it to fit a cup under the stuffing box and time how long it takes to fill the do the math for a day
> 
> and a week
> 
> ...


Good plan.

Would you consider starting a new thread about your leak? It would make it easier to find for others with similar problems. A little copy-and-paste from this thread could show the whole story, from your first "I have a leak." post to its final resolution.

Good luck!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

will do

sorry op.

hope our info helped you make a decision...if any help is needed Id be happy to assist...even if just translating with the workers once you get there

peace


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

Any update on how you made out fixing this keel crack issue? What did you find out when you hauled it?


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