# how do you tack an assymetrical spinnaker?



## bowman57

How do you tack an assymetrial spinnaker?


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## CaptainForce

Why would you decide to tack instead of gybe an assymetrical spinnaker, as it's a sail for use with the wind aft the beam? If your plan is to gybe, then long sheets that run from the clew and in front of the forestay will facilitate the manuver.


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## HerbDB

You can as the previous poster mentioned, use long sheets and jibe it in front of the fore stay. I always had problems doing this. Something would invariably hang up.Then while you are trying to fix it, the sail beats itself to death.

My personal fix is to pull the sock down over the sail, move the socked sail to the other side, then pull the sock up and reinflate the sail. Not dramatic, but safe and easy.


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## RichH

Yes, you can tack an asymmetrical spinnaker, especially the ones that are cut for sailing on 'up to a low close reach'. If the rigging and foretriangle configuration are 'clear' (no babystays, or other intermediate 'forestays' in the way, etc. and especially 'no sharp points, etc.' to catch/rip the ripstop) this is easily done and in the same manner as a lightweight genoa or drifter. The only difference to prevent any wraps or bubbles around the forestay is to pull the tack-line taught before the maneuver. 

You can (depending on the foretriangle being 'clear', etc.) 'inside gybe' an asymmetric - an especially good technique in light conditions where there is not enough wind to 'out and around' gybe. For an 'out and around gybe' you need a minimum amount of wind to let the clew (and heavy spinn sheets) to 'blow' well forward as you gybe; with a 'inside gybe' you simply 'pull it' through the foretriange (and dont wind up with the sheets in the water or under the bow). Depends on your configuration (length) of 'mast spinnaker crane' and how vulnerable your spinn (and sock etc.) is to becoming 'eaten' by a jib furler top swivel, etc. Again, you need to pull the tackline taught before the sail crosses the 'eye of the wind' before doing this for inside/outside jibes/tacks.


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## CaptainForce

HerbDB said:


> ....My personal fix is to pull the sock down over the sail, move the socked sail to the other side, then pull the sock up and reinflate the sail. Not dramatic, but safe and easy.


Thanks, HerbDB, I don't know why I never considered this instead of the outside gybe. I'll try that sometime; although, if I put a crew member on the task of reeling in the slack sheets, I don't have a problem with the outside gybe. 'take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## bowman57

*Let me clairify! Tacking an assymetrical.*

I race on a J120 and the asymmetrical is a Code-0, so it is made to sail at a closer angle. The tactician called to tack the code and I had to ask what???, for I had never seen nor ever performed such a maneuver, this is why I have to ask. We did proceeded with the maneuver, complete it, but with most difficulty and position loss to other boats. This is why I need to ask, what the proper way to perform the task is?


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## JohnRPollard

bowman57 said:


> I race on a J120 and the asymmetrical is a Code-0, so it is made to sail at a closer angle. The tactician called to tack the code and I had to ask what???, for I had never seen nor ever performed such a maneuver, this is why I have to ask. We did proceeded with the maneuver, complete it, but with most difficulty and position loss to other boats. This is why I need to ask, what the proper way to perform the task is?


It's pretty unusual to tack an asym spin. But there are rare times when it's done.

It's best to have crew grab the clew and walk it up and around the forestay or headstay, then back down the side deck. If you are rigged for outside jibes (unlikely), you'll have to re-run the lazy sheet prior to tack and rig it for inside. I say "unlikely" because normally you'd rig for outside jibes only in heavier air conditions, when you'd be pretty unlikely to attempt tacking an asym.

I'm not surprised you lost ground in the maneuver. Code Zeros are nice in that they help you sail a tighter reach, but if you are sailing to weather you're normally better off with the appropriate headsail. Downwind you can get better VMG with the higher boatspeed despite the wider jibe angles, but it's hard to replicate that going upwind. Were the other boats tacking their assyms?

You're on a J-120 ?! Sweet ride. That must be a fun boat to crew on!!


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## bubb2

John, all sumer I been playing with my asymmetrical. Inside, tacks. outside tacks. Using atn tacker, not using the atn tacker. Things, I found out. 

Using the Tacker keeps the clew to the center line and makes outside gybes easy. Yes, you do give up higher reaching angles, but for me it is a good trade off. I single hand 85% of time. Slowly start the gybe by bring the bow toward the clew of asymmetrical. At the same time start to ease the working sheet. You are tying have the clew of the sail and the boat all in line 180 degrees down wind at the same time. One straight line as the wind comes over the stern. At this time release the working sheet and as the bow of the boat is coming around to the new course then start trimming with the new working sheet. 

This can be done very smoothly if tension is kept on the sheets and if it is done slowly but deliberately. 

I have not had much luck doing inside gybes.


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## JohnRPollard

bubb2 said:


> John, all sumer I been playing with my asymmetrical. Inside, tacks. outside tacks. Using atn tacker, not using the atn tacker. Things, I found out.
> 
> Using the Tacker keeps the clew to the center line and makes outside gybes easy. Yes, you do give up higher reaching angles, but for me it is a good trade off. I single hand 85% of time. Slowly start the gybe by bring the bow toward the clew of asymmetrical. At the same time start to ease the working sheet. You are tying have the clew of the sail and the boat all in line 180 degrees down wind at the same time. One straight line as the wind comes over the stern. At this time release the working sheet and as the bow of the boat is coming around to the new course then start trimming with the new working sheet.
> 
> This can be done very smoothly if tension is kept on the sheets and if it is done slowly but deliberately.
> 
> I have not had much luck doing inside gybes.


Bubb,

Interesting that your experience with inside vs outside jibes differs from mine so markedly.

I have never been a big fan of outside jibes, except in heavy air, due to the need to mind the lazy sheet and keep it from getting pulled under the boat. And we never seem to have any difficulty driving down, easing the working sheet forward until the clew is even with the headstay, then hauling the sail through with the lazy sheet.

That said, all my experience has been on boats with effectively large foretriangles (either by virtue of the fixed sailplan or due to running sprits). But I could see where a boat with a relatively small foretriangle might have more difficulty with an inside jibe due to the tight geometry.


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## bubb2

John, I been thinking about that also. My boat is a 30 foot Bene with a fractional rig. 

The spinnaker halyard is from the top of the mast. However, my jib halyard exits the mast about 2 feet down then runs through a retainer about another foot down before it runs to the roller furling swivel. 

I can get a good set on one tack but when I do a inside gybe, the spinnaker halyard wedges up under the retainer and curls the head of the sail.


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## bb74

bubb2 said:


> John, I been thinking about that also. My boat is a 30 foot Bene with a fractional rig.
> 
> The spinnaker halyard is from the top of the mast. However, my jib halyard exits the mast about 2 feet down then runs through a retainer about another foot down before it runs to the roller furling swivel.
> 
> I can get a good set on one tack but when I do a inside gybe, the spinnaker halyard wedges up under the retainer and curls the head of the sail.


I'd check a few things - 1; the tension on the spi halyard - probably could use more tension to keep the sail "straighter". 2nd - check the knot on the spi head. Maybe look at using a swivel / pulley / locket if the knot doesn't allow that much motion for a 180° gybe. 3rd, on an ASY, on an internal gybe you need to maintain control of the windward sheet all thru the gybe - take the slack in to just before the center point then release slowly- just like the main or a 135 genoa, then a push the tiller to ease the hull off more quickly, release the sheet tension as the boat gybes, and maybe a bit of help on the new windward sheet. Best bet is to spend an afternoon out there doing gybes - say 1 every 30 seconds and decompose the manoeuver until things go smoothly. If you're getting the head of the sail stuck in the foresail rigging, something's not going as it should on the gybe - I can't think of a design issue that would make an internal gybe problematic. Practice makes perfect!


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## pdqaltair

*It is about boat speed.*



JohnRPollard said:


> Bubb,
> 
> Interesting that your experience with inside vs outside jibes differs from mine so markedly.
> 
> I have never been a big fan of outside jibes, except in heavy air, due to the need to mind the lazy sheet and keep it from getting pulled under the boat. And we never seem to have any difficulty driving down, easing the working sheet forward until the clew is even with the headstay, then hauling the sail through with the lazy sheet.
> 
> That said, all my experience has been on boats with effectively large foretriangles (either by virtue of the fixed sailplan or due to running sprits). But I could see where a boat with a relatively small foretriangle might have more difficulty with an inside jibe due to the tight geometry.


My last boat was a fast one, easily broad reaching at 1.3x windspeed. We would do inside jibes, sometimes never having the wind come aft - basically a tack be cause the boat never fell below windspeed. Strictly a racers trick on very high performance boats. My new boat is a slower one and an inside jibe would never work. All outside jibes.

The trick is to never let either sheet go completely free until well through, and to minimize flogging. Ease the sheet as the wind comes aft while taking up the new sheet. No worries.

If you let the sheet fly, you will tangle something and run over a lazy sheet. Yup.


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## maxmunger

I guess not many sailors read sailing books anymore. Please excuse, but There are so many errors in this discussion that i am forced to intervene.

Spinnakers "gybe" not tack except under the most extreme duress of crew and accidental circumstances. The forward lower end of the asym is the tack not the clew. When you tighten the luff you pull the tack down using the tackline. 

The ATN TACKER is attached to the "tack". This device makes it very hard to do an inside tack since it rides on the furled headsail on the headstay. Pulling it down simply closes off the "inside" area. 

Using any form of tacker prevents the asym from rotating to windward and therefore restricting deeper downwind angles. The luff needs to float away from the headstay preferably on even a short bowsprit.

All spinnakers are always outside of the headstay and outside of the foretriangle which is formed by mast and headstay. many owners try to save money and use jib halyards for spins. Wrong. bad for the halyard and worse for the sail. Jibs go on and inside the headstay, spins go outside. That is why the spin halyard is mounted above and forward of the headstay on its own rotating fittings. 

Clearing the foretriangle has nothing to do with gybing the asym. The size shape of the foretriangle has nothing to do with spins.

I think you have the idea of an outside gybe. But an inside gybe passes the clew (including sheets) between the luff of the spin and the headstay. This area is wider on boats with longer bowsprits. using a sock is a good idea for cruisers and racers too! 

I hope this helps.


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## SVAuspicious

+1 across the board for maxmunger. 

The ATN tacker is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. If you think you need one you really need some training or to do some more reading on spinnaker handling.


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## JohnRPollard

maxmunger said:


> I guess not many sailors read sailing books anymore. Please excuse, but There are so many errors in this discussion that i am forced to intervene.
> 
> Spinnakers "gybe" not tack except under the most extreme duress of crew and accidental circumstances.


Max, We already covered this. The O.P. was in fact asking about TACKING a Code 0. It does not have to be extreme duress or accidental circumstances. Sometimes, particularly on light and fickle days, a sudden wind reversal near the nominally leeward mark will make a tack the better option. We did this more than once on our Melges 24, as did the rest of the fleet. I described to the O.P. how we did it.



SVAuspicious said:


> The ATN tacker is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. If you think you need one you really need some training or to do some more reading on spinnaker handling.


I disagree. Rather, the problem seems to be a misunderstanding of its intended purpose.

The ATN tacker was designed to allow cruisers to fly SYMMETRICAL spinnakers without using the conventional spinnaker pole. By attaching the Tacker to one of the spinnaker clews, and securing it to the headstay, the symmetric spinnaker can be distorted into a shape and flown in a manner akin to an asymmetric.

In other words, the ATN tacker wasn't originally designed for use with asym chutes. I have used it with a symmetric chute, and it seems to work as advertised. However, I think the better approach is to fly the symmetric chute in the conventional way (i.e. with pole) and get a true asym if you don't like the complexity.


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## maxmunger

Sorry the original post on page one was simply asking how to tack an asymmetrical spinnaker. Only one other reader mentioned a code '0' on his own boat. Doesn't affect the answers. I would include sudden wind reversal as "accidental circumstances" for tacking. been there, done that.

I really doubt that the late arrival of ATN Tacker" on the market was linked to using symmetrical chutes. I used "parrel beads" early in my sailing career and consider them far better and less weight/size to deal with. These devices are needed to roll over the furled headsails when a "hank" cannot be used on the headstay. 
The purpose of such fittings is to stabilize the tack just as a pole/sprit would do for upwind sailing. In light air, even a full sym chute or asym will rotate nicely into the wind for deep sailing without any "tacker" device. Like Auspicous, I suggest learning to use the sail correctly thru more practice.

And please do not use jib halyards. Install a proper spin halyard.


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## paulk

*Skinning cats*

Just so people don't think there's only one way to do things...
Our mast is rigged with a central jib halyard and two "wing" halyards, all where the forestay meets the mast at the hounds. The wing halyards are designed to serve interchangeably as spinnaker or jib halyards, as needed. We have tacked our symmetrical chute on purpose: at least once while racing and twice performing quick-stop MOB drills. With a thousand square feet of nylon, you try to do it as quickly as possible.


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## maxmunger

I have flown the spinnaker from the main halyard too! backwards!
Your setup still does not overcome the problem of tacking or gybing the spinnaker, since it must still pass 1) under and through the foretriangle to the opposite side or 2) up and over the forestay. This bends the halyards and tack line around the forestay causing much wearing of the lines either way. And I doubt any sock will function as designed like that. Jib sheaves are not designed for the side pull of a spinnaker and will wear at the sheave exits too!
You can get by with a lot of things for a short while, but 'things" should be treated the way they were designed to be used.


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## ste27

2nd 3rd 4th and 5th on using the proper halyard unless you have a REALLY good reason - note that "I don't have one" is not a proper reason, install an external spin halyard if you have to

Example of a good reason: last race of the season for a semi-distance round the cans series (average race 30mi). Small sym boat, one jib halyard one spin halyard. We're one point ahead of an identical boat for the year, and we're leading the series overall as well. Course appears to call for a forestay reach for approx 30 mins followed by a small bear-away for approx 10 followed by an approx 1 hour run followed by another tight forestay reach for say 30, then some upwind work to get home. 

So, small reacher on the jib halyard and off we go on port, carbon fibre spin pole with a bit of curve in it, lowered to keep the luff of the kite tight and just alllmost brushing the forestay as things load up in puffs (ie no way we could hold the big kite sailing this high). Get to the bear-away, it's a bit broader than we thought so hook up the big runner to the spare spin sheets and spin halyard. Finally bear away more onto the run and launch the big runner outside the smaller kite, pole off reacher and onto runner, starboard douse. Gybe, have a beer. Disconnect the reacher, re-pack it, bring the jib halyard over to the port side, and re-hook everything up for a port launch inside the runner. Reacher goes out, pole off old lines and onto new ones, douse runner, harden up, attach spin halyard to genoa. Wind forward of the beam from the next rounding on in, win race by about 5 minutes on the water - probably about the amount of time we gained by having the right spinnaker for the right points of sail rather than compromising.

Don't try this stuff at home!


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## paulk

*Cat skinning lesson 4d/ subsection 42 part 33*



maxmunger said:


> I h ts too!
> You can get by with a lot of things for a short while, but 'things" should be treated the way they were designed to be used.


That IS the way our mast was designed to be used. That was my point. There is more than one way to skin a cat. There are lots of different boats sailing all over the place.


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## ste27

paulk said:


> That IS the way our mast was designed to be used. That was my point. There is more than one way to skin a cat. There are lots of different boats sailing all over the place.


So they all exit above the forestay? Do they swivel at all?


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## paulk

They all exit *below* the forestay, without swivels. The wing halyards manage to not chafe on the forestay when they're used for spinnakers because they're pulled forward, not down, by the spinnaker. The angle of the forestay is steep enough to keep it pretty much out of the way. The central jib halyard doesn't get used for spinnakers.


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## maxmunger

This is contrary info. If the exits are below and behind the forestay, then the working halyard is below the forestay. If the halyard is below the forestay then after any gybe, the halyard must go over the forestay to the opposite side. Even if the bails were even with the forestay, the sag of a block and halyard would still not be above the forestay. Therefore, the halyard must chafe on the forestay while on that gybe.

Many masts do have cranes that position spin bails to P/S as is on my friends C&C. However, the bails and their blocks are above the forestay, so when gybing the halyard stays above and in front of the forestay.


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## ste27

paulk said:


> They all exit *below* the forestay, without swivels. The wing halyards manage to not chafe on the forestay when they're used for spinnakers because they're pulled forward, not down, by the spinnaker. The angle of the forestay is steep enough to keep it pretty much out of the way. The central jib halyard doesn't get used for spinnakers.


Fair enough if youre running DDW, but if it's an asym I would assume you're not, and the second you gybe you go from chafing and all kinds of weird forces on your forestay. Add a sheave above the forestay, even if it just takes the line from one of these "wing" ones and feeds it through that externally


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## paulk

We've not had undue chafe on our halyards or our forestay over the past twelve years we've raced & cruised our boat. We did replace the original rope/wire halyards that were getting too many soldiers with all textile about 8 or 10 years ago. I'll have to see if we have a photo or scale drawing of the spar's sheave setup. Our spinnakers are symmetrical.


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## maxmunger

A pic would be nice. What kind of boat do you have? This list is pretty specific to Catalina 30s


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