# Planning for 4-5 years in the future. Thoughts appreciated.



## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

I only have about 5 months of sailing a 15 foot boat on a lake. I've been a power boater most my life and love the ocean and lakes. Why I think I'd like sailing the world:
1) I love to travel over seas. My parents and I am boat retired military. I've been to about 18 countries.
2) Love water and the ocean
3) Been to many foreign countries and want to see a lot more
4) Lived in a 12 foot truck camper for about a year. I initially wanted to travel in an RV, the distance is too limited and want to see more. 
5) Can fix about anything, electrical, engines, plumbing, etc.
6) I will be taking professional courses next summer when I'm closer to the ocean.
7) I enjoy the company of other was well as being isolated. Both suit me and my wife fine.


So, I'm still in the early planning stages and hope to charter a 40' cat this coming summer for a week or two to evaluate the life. I have "camped" ha ha ha, in the summer in Florida several times and believe we can handle the heat else where in the world. I have navigation, sailing, and storm sailing classes and trips I plan to take this summer. After retirement and the purchase of a cat, I plan to learn to sail by spending a year in Florida and up the ICW and then slowly branching to Bahamas and Caribbean before hopping over any oceans for the long haul.

1) I hope to retire at 51.
2) I hope to have enough investment income to make a boat payment of up to $2,000/month. I don't want to spend the investments and pay cash so when I'm done sailing (10-15 year??), I'll still have the investments.
3) I believe I can live off $2,700 a month after taxes not including my boat payment. That is my retirement income. I have IRA/ROTH, but that will come much later in life, like 70.

I put a list together with my wife and our priorities for traveling the world and living off the hook, not marinas is:
1. Fuel capacity. My biggest fear is breaking down, rigging, sails, etc exactly 1/2 way across the pacific. Hence I'd like about 200 gallons of fuel. I plan on living off the grid months at a time without a marina.
2. Helm protection (no fly bridges). I'll be at the wheel someday in a storm and want to be protected.
3. A cat with a width of 23' or more. Seems like I've been looking at 21'9" to 25'9" so far.
4. Length, 40 absolute minimum and 45' absolute max. I need to handle it with only two crew (self/spouse).
5. Fridge capacity. 2 would be great, but think there might be power issues. A lot of people do without, so this is debatable, but not according to my wife.
6. floor plan has to be right.
7. freezer capacity
8. Washer. Whatever it takes to keep the spouse happy since she will likely be doing it.
9. black capacity when I cannot dump. I think the Lectrasan systems will be fine.
10. Fresh capacity. I've re-evaluated this and it needs to move much higher. Initial thought was to just turn on and off the "mandatory" water maker. Well, they are power hungry, use a lot of water to clean them every time they are used so it's not something I'd use daily as initially thought. More like every 1 to 2 weeks. 

So, thus far I found a nice cat I like:
221 gallons of fuel
221 gallons of fresh
43 feet by 24 feet
washer
AC powered fridge and inverter (I'll probably pull it for a good marine one.
Designed to be sailed short handed.
200 liter/hr water maker driven by the engine. Don't know if that is good or bad.
Large?? battery bank. They say 750 amp/hr. so I guess 6 batteries. Perhaps I could add 2 more. With solar and two batteries, I have camped off the grid for 6 months without power. However, boats don't use propane fridges, and they do have a ton of electronics. Perhaps it's an apples to oranges comparison. 
400+ watts of solar. I'd like to add wind also if that isn't enough.

It's a new 2014 model, but hopefully I can afford a used one 4-5 years from now.

I see no one mentions fuel capacity. I know it's a sail boat designed to sail, but is it not important? I figure the boat generator might see some use, such as the water maker or charging when solar is not putting out for a 3-4 day gap of clouds. If I island hop, panama canal, or take the dreaded suez canal, fuel might be important.
I'd like some comforts like a fridge/freezer, but not sure how big to go or perhaps how small.
Still working on the logistics of taxes, bills (if any), sat phones, insurance, etc.


I'm open to thoughts. I'm still learning and planning.



Loved this quote by alanr77:

Not everyone wants to leave dirt behind and live a strictly seaman's life. A lot of people just love being on the water, love to sail, and want to travel a bit by way of water. It seems that in the sailing world, there is a constant fight between the "old salt traditional keel swashbucket sailor" and the "modern electronic mod con sailor" Everyone thinks that they have the best way but one has to really look at what type of cruising that person is doing before they can figure out the best way for them to do it.

I think I fall into the Modern electronic sailor category. I would like to take a star navigation class though.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Ditch the AC fridge and get something designed for a boat.

DECISION are you going to run an engine regularly to run a watermaker? If yes then why not have an engine driven compressor for a fridge and use it to pull down a couple of BIG cold plates. NB your engine hours will get significantly out of step.

I know quite a few people who have gone down this route and are very happy with it. I personally hate to have the engine running so run on solar 400 watts, the fridge makes ice and I can run a Spectra watermaker if I want. 

In general I see nothing wrong with your plan. Go for a larger cat if you can 45ft usually sails MUCH better than 40ft especially to windward.


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

I agree. The AC fridge is 99% likely to be ditched. It didn't sound like a good thing to me. The benefit is that the boat is outfitted to power it with a large battery bank and charging system. That is all the better especially when I don't have the fridge.

Really, a few extra feet makes a big difference? I know haul speed is determined by the length, but not sure of the formula. My top two contenders are 43 and 45 foot. Our shortest contender is the Lagoon 400 at 39'3" but only holds 105 gallons of fuel. The largest so far is the Lagoon 450 and it is quite wide also. It has only 92gallons of fresh so I "assume" I'll be running the water maker often which then means lots of service and cleaning.

I may be doing myself a disservice by finding the best model and then really hoping I can find it used at a reasonable price and good condition. I have not accepted the idea of not getting what I want, but that is probably reality. i will try to have 3 models picked out to buy.

Is 400 watts good? I've done a small RV full time on 120 watts but a 44 cat is a different beast. TV (maybe), lights LED, radar, nav equipment, SSB, laptops, etc. You can always add more solar right?


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

What are the odds that I click on a post I'm interested in and find something I wrote used as a quote?!?! LOL

When configuring amp hours and trying to decide how many panels you need I have found that .275/.325 x advertized watts on the panels gives you a realistic average positive amp hour number. I'm trying to find the credited source for this number and will acknowledge it when I do. However, in my real world testing, using battery tender style solar chargers, 10w up to 50w, I have found that formula to be pretty good in the South Eastern United States. Using that formula, .3 x 400= 120. If the formula holds true for larger panels, I would take that to indicate that your average weekly battery replenishment would be around 120 AH daily. Now, if you add up a realistic amp hour usage spreadsheet, you will be amazed at how quickly your actual amp hours add up; to the point that 120ah is not sufficient to run everything under the sun continuously. On a 12 volt system, a good way to get some average numbers that are close to reality is to take the listed amps of the device and multiply that by the hours of use per day: 

Example: 

Boat DC power requirments- Total AH per day of use= 44.7

Engle MB40 frdge/freezer- 36 WPH = 432 WPD= 36 AH per day
LED dome light avg .275 amps
Currently have 2. .55 ah x 6 hours= 3.3 AH per day
Standard Horizon GX1700B VHF. Standby- .45 ah= 5.4 AH per day

This was just the beginning of my boat. As I continue to outfit her, I have reached a point where I will no longer be able to maintain my batteries above 50% of their available amp hours on solar alone. If I choose to continue adding devices, I will have to supplement with either wind generation or IC engine usage. Remember, unless you want to replace your expensive storage batteries quite often, only draw down your batteries to 50% of their rated capacity. So if I have 400AH worth of AGM's, I really only have 200AH to continuously use. If I use 120AH a day. But my solar energy is only replacing 100ah a day, I theoretically will have 5 days before I need to start my engine. However, the plot thickens; this does not take into account losses in efficiency due to wires, connections and the corrosion of both. In addition, heat also causes higher losses. So ideally, you want to use the 50% minimum as an absolute maximum use. 

If you use my list above as an example, notice that it does not take into consideration navigation lights, navigation hardware and auto pilot devices. My actual list is much much longer. That was a baseline for sitting on the hook. 

You have to decide what features are important to you and then build a system to support those systems. The installation of the nice to have stuff and the pressing of the power button is the easy part.  Obviously based on my quote you've been reading the thread where we are discussing those very things.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

No one else has yet so I guess I will.
A sailboat is not an investment.
A sailboat is a hole in the water into which you throw money.

That said, bigger boat than I would. I prefer monohulls. 
Army, comsec, tank turret and hull.
It can be done. I am still planing. 

Lots of good advice from experienced sailors (not me) , on this forum.


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

desert rat said:


> No one else has yet so I guess I will.
> A sailboat is not an investment.
> A sailboat is a hole in the water into which you throw money.
> 
> ...


Ya, definately not an investment! Boat=hole=money, ya definately know that from all my power boating years! Lots-0-money.
That is why I plan to not spend my investments and finance. Sure, I'll pay interest, but my investments will continue to grow and will still have them after selling the boat a decade later vice the convience of not haveing a payment, but no investments either.

So....
When configuring amp hours and trying to decide how many panels you need I have found that .275/.325 x advertized watts on the panels gives you a realistic average positive amp hour number.

How many hours a days does that formula work?

On my RV, I had a solar charger with a feature call max power point.
Basically it was a 130 watt panel, it takes the AxV=Watt formula and the 18+ volts from the panel, converts the 18 volts to AC current, then drops it to 12 volts DC vice the panel's 18volts DC, but at a higher current. So, there was some conversion losses, 5%, but the amps were WAY higher. I had a 7.1 amp panel and it would throw a REAL measured power level of 12+ amps at 13 volts to my batteries even though the the panel was 7 amps at 18 volts! My math is off a bit I'm sure, but I did pull over 12 amps. However, that was only during peak daylight.


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## cwyckham (Jul 9, 2009)

Five years is a good horizon. You're already doing a bit of sailing and plan on taking lessons next year, that's great!

I would strongly suggest, though, that you look to buy a smaller and much cheaper first boat and sail the heck out of her for a few years. You'll learn a ton about sailing, living aboard for weekends up to a week, boat maintenance, what features you find most important in a boat, fixing boats, your personal style of sailing, boat maintenance and also fixing boats.

You can take some time to poke around bigger cats and do some chartering, but at least you're also building experience throughout the year at home.

In the end, you can sell it for what you paid for it and buy your cat.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

The .275/.325 number takes into account peak sun and less than optimal. That's why I liked and used the formula so much. It gives you a good, conservative average amp hour output for 1 day. Obviously some days you may get a little more, some days a little less. But over a 7 day period of time, the averages balance out and I've found the numbers to be pretty close using a xantrex monitor. Manufacturers rate their panels and publish the maximum wattage in optimal conditions. Real world numbers are much much less over the entire day. I've been using that formula for a long time. I think it may have been a book somewhere hence my difficulties in referencing it. But it worked and my testing verified it so I kept it in my notes and use it in setting up my systems.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Additionally, here is another thread worth reading. Apparently others have had good results with that formula as well

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...rom-a-solar-panel-or-wind-generator-6118.html


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

The big thing I see missing here is Actual Sailing Experience........When are you going to get it? While it's great to wax nostagically about all the the requirements on the internet..how about your immediate plan to gain some water time? Think all is mute here without doing it on a much smaller boat to start...NOW. These kinds of threads are dime a dozen...


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Get someting small and start sailing now.
As others have said do a couple charters to make sure it is the life for you AND the rest of the family.
Don't get hung up on a particular boat, get on as many as you possibly can, make notes about what you like and don't like.
One of my "dream boats" went off the list about 2 minutes after I got on board one. So narrow down below 2 people couldn't pass without difficulty, fairly easy in the marina, hard at 15 degrees heel!
I have the same plan as you, same timeline, difference is I've been sailing/racing everything from dingies to keelboats since I was a kid.
The boat isn't my main worry, even with over 30 years experience my sailing skills are still what I'm concerned with. Not worried about the nice days, it's when the poop hits the fan and running for shelter isn't an option.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

For me, all of the 17 boats I have owned in my lifetime have been an investment. Not a monetary investment, but instead, an investment in my sanity. Just being on the water, either fishing, sailing or just sitting in a quiet cove anchored and watching the world go by is what keeps me going, day after day. It's a lifestyle that few people ever really get to appreciate. I'm very fortunate in that I have made the investment in this lifestyle and wish to continue as long as physically possible.

All the best,

Gary


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

If you plan is to buy a boat in 4 years to go cruising I think its nuts to start dictating now the elements you think important let alone "absolute".

You have admitted you know nothing and are heading for your first cruise next summer.

Your first point on "absolutes": fuel tank size has nothing whatsoever to do with reality. We did the whole Pacific on 38 gallons of diesel. Later when we needed 1,000 nm fuel range to motor non-stop 1,000 nms we just chucked on a few plastic gerry cans for that trip and sold them at the end.

Whats more improtant at this stage is to start setting goals that will turn your dreams into reality.
We do goal setting in buisness life and its common and normal but few do so for their personal life.

Set an exact date to are going to leave. Thats your goal that you can only acheive if its set. Then extrapolate backwards.
For example:
Leave May 1 2020
Sell junk.
Buy boat before September 2019
Put house on market
Start looking for boat May 2019
Finish land based sailing courses September 2018
Start formal sailing course.
Sailing charter April 2016
sailboat shows October 2015, and every show, every year.
Start club races
Join sailing club August 2015 NOW!
Etc, etc

By setting your big goal all the other little goals are facilitating goals and you will see they all fall into place.

*Get the list and pin it to the fridge and look at it every day.* Tick stuff acheived off. Save every cent. Do your finances. See if you can pull that 2020 goal date in closer and closer. Maybe you can go in 2019!! Maybe you can do it in 2018. That would be two extra years retirement! Thats something to work for! But never, ever, put a date back.

Your life is at your finger tips and you can do it! As long as you set those goals now


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## Livia (Jul 20, 2006)

I don't think we knew what we needed when we left the dock. Actually, I know we didn't. Now after more than 5 years of cruising, we have a really good idea. Depending on how long you go out for, be open to the idea that you may change (and thus your style of cruising) along the way. You may discover you have an easier time roughing it than you thought, or that you can't rough it as much as you thought.


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

aeventyr60 said:


> The big thing I see missing here is Actual Sailing Experience........When are you going to get it? While it's great to wax nostagically about all the the requirements on the internet..how about your immediate plan to gain some water time? Think all is mute here without doing it on a much smaller boat to start...NOW. These kinds of threads are dime a dozen...


I currently live in Las Cruces, NM, not much for lakes. However, I do go sailing one or twice a week with my small boat now.
It has the rigging of a larger boat, but obviously much much smaller.
It has a real main sail, outhaul, reefing, boom vang, etc.
It has a roller furling Genoa, 130% I think.
It has a spinnaker.
So, I think I have enough ropes to last a year or more of learning experience.
I need to hit up the ocean bays in San Fransisco, but that is 10 hours away. As is, the lake is 1:30hr away.
I will be going to DC this winter for an entire year. I will be working a 5 day on/off rotation, so those 5 day breaks every 5 days will be sailing lessons and classes.
Im doing what I can. Sorry you think I'm a dime a dozen...


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

A couple of charters will give you some experience on larger boats and narrow down what you want in a boat and how you want it equipped. Do it.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Seems like you have most of the tech stuff figured out. In five years lot's of that will probably change, mainly in the battery and charging areas.

I'm with others here that say, just get out and sail, spend some time on the water. Charters are nice if you can afford them, do as many as you can for as long as you can. Of course you can charter the boats you want to live on, blah blah blah.

What I would do is start boat shopping now and get something smaller sooner. Live on it for long weekends, vacations, etc. Get something simple without a lot of systems and just sail, eat, sleep, enjoy the hell out of it. Buying something nearer the bottom of the depreciation curve so you can use it and then sell it without a huge loss. This will allow you and your wife to see if you really can and want to live on the water for long periods.

What I learned by doing this is that, although I love spending 2-3 weeks on my boat, and crave spending every weekend on my boat, I may or may not ever want to live aboard. My dream altered slightly with the realities of ****e weather and the inevitable adventures in breaking things. That's just me and your experience will be your own, but there is another person involved. If your wife is not absolutely in love with living on a boat and all the adventures that come along with it, or not, then it's better you find out now.

It's not the same as camping, or traveling abroad, or living the RV lifestlye. It's not better, or worse, it's just much different.

Now on the flip side of all that, if I had a wife who was sure she wanted to live aboard, I would certainly do it. But not if I didn't have someone who was as or more committed than I.

Living on a 40+ foot boat will mean that having a sailing partner is a must, anything less will just create stress between the two of you. That is just my humble opinion and your mileage may vary. Best of luck to you on your journey.


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

Thanks for the info. My wife is fully on board. She wants to leave now, but I need to save more for the boat. Buying and selling sailboats at our small lake would be difficult to sell. Id have to commit to San Diego and a slip and make a long drive, 1,400 to sail. That's a bit much. I plan to buy a cat that is about 5-6 years old to allow for depreciation and affordability. Whatever is new and out now will likely be my choice at retirement.

A charter is definitely on the list. I'm not sure the best way to go about it. They are pricy. However, the only place to charter is going to be on the east coast. I'll be on the east this coming summer and hope to get a week in one, but that depends on the $5,000 plus for two people.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Not meaning to hijack your thread, but your comment just made me think - yeah, it's fighting with the wife on the boat thats the most likely danger. My wife is only marginally " on board" and likes her gardens and our big comfy house. 

I wonder how many married couples cannot stand that much time together in close quarters??. At least in a Cat you can be in seperate hulls!


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Serpa4:

Let me pitch an angle that in a way summarizes what a lot have been saying so far. If you're in the market for a sailboat now so that you can better prepare for what you want to do in the future, buy something that warms your heart and has the ability to allow you to enjoy yourself now, with what you are doing now. Be it a 14.2 day sailor or a 30' weekender. Don't buy a project,buy something that you can sail now. Then once you have that boat, become a great sailor. Learn how to do all the maneuvers without thinking. Practice practice practice. Know how to heave to in that boat. Learn how to anchor and weigh anchor under sail. Practice practice practice. Practice "pretending" you're docking under sail on an unused portion of a dock. Learn how to de-power the sails and slow the boat down. Get a feel for what reefing does. Experiment with the sail controls and get a feel for what effect they have on the boat. Work out a man overboard system with your wife. Make it so either one of you just reacts if someone falls overboard. Make it automatic. Get a feel for what the boat feels like when you have too much sail up when running. Know what being overpowered feels like. Understand why a boat rounds up. Force the rudder to stall so you know what it feels like. Practice keeping the boat as level as possible regardless of the wind speed. On many boats it's faster not to sail on her ear. Learn how to round up into irons so you can manage sails. Once you're comfortable with how the boat reacts to all of this, don't just go sailing on the pretty days. Go out when its blustery. Get a feel for whats that's like and put the skills you've been practicing to work. This will give you confidence in your abilities and in the abilities of the boat. By this time you and your wife should have a system worked out where you can communicate without screaming at each other. It makes things smoother and will give her confidence in you. Her confidence in you will give you confidence in yourself. During all of this, remember to have fun. And at the end of those 5 years, when you're ready to buy your cruising boat and take off, you'll find that you'll be able to answer a lot of your own questions. Get involved in your plan. Get out on boats. Make it happen. Become one of the sailors people look to. Books can give you the theory, but only being out there on the water gives you the intuitive feel that you'll want to have. Remember, even Captain Cook was once a Mate. AR


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

Thanks guys, I appreciate the advice.


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## Soul2sail (Aug 20, 2015)

Thanks for the post, my wife and I are also in the planning stage. However our timeline is a bit further out, our youngest is eight, not planing to live aboard with kids. I have had small lake boats for twenty years, anxious to get experience on something larger. It would be great to connect with another couple for a week charter to gain experience and reduce costs.


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

I'm looking forward to a charter and meeting new people. I have a unknown event right now. I'm in new Mexico as my residence. I'm supposed to go to DC for a year long training, but the date keeps slipping. When I head to DC is when I'll charter and take additional lessons. Where are you located? 
Sent from my cellphone.


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## Soul2sail (Aug 20, 2015)

We are in utah now, looking into joining the sailing club here. Keep me posted on your charter intentions....cheers


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## Matt (Aug 11, 2015)

theres a sailing channel on youtube called honeymoon by seth hynes, they sail a Lagoon around the world for their honeymoon. dont think i saw them stay at a marina once, although its been a while since i watched the series. a water maker may be more important on a cat since they are so stable you may never need a break from the rocking. agreed with the rest about planning. i have my today boat that i enjoy immensely and i keep my plans for the future fairly vague since for example: if lockheed martin isnt lying then there could very possibly be fusion reactors available in 10 years to power your boat. if there were a reality then you need a tankage capacity of about 1 litre of fuel to power an entire circumnavigation. technology will always change and we all need to adjust accordingly


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

Wow, my really old post from 4 years ago. Update...
I'm about 1.5 years out still. Everything is lining up fine. 
I did charter a Lagoon 440 from Florida to Bahamas and back. Has really $h!ty weather, but still had a great time. Loved it, expensive, but well spent money.
I've decided to look at the following boats, 2010-2013 Lagoon 421 owners, 2012 Fountaine Pajot owners, if affordable or 4-bed, Lagoon 450 4-bed older model. I hope to get one in the $350k plus/minus 10k range.

CWYCKHAM said, "I would strongly suggest, though, that you look to buy a smaller and much cheaper first boat and sail the heck out of her for a few years. You'll learn a ton about sailing, living aboard for weekends up to a week, boat maintenance, what features you find most important in a boat, fixing boats, your personal style of sailing, boat maintenance and also fixing boats."
Well...
I did live in Washington DC for a year. Bought a 1988 C&C 30MkII. What a blast. Lived on it for a year by myself (temporary duty, no wife). Sailed it every single week, winter or not.
I cannot wait for retirement.
I hope to buy local, but likely will be in the Med. Seems to have the most choices at a decent cost. Have to sail it or pay to have it sailed to Texas for refit and full time liveaboard.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Lagoon 450 is a big boat. Huge.

I like the 421

What fits the budget.


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## serpa4 (Aug 2, 2015)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Lagoon 450 is a big boat. Huge.
> 
> I like the 421
> 
> What fits the budget.


Yep, it will come down to price. Trying to stick to only one boat, right layout, right price, will keep me shopping forever. Need choices. The 421 3-bed and maybe....Helia 44 3-bed are my choices. Those two are about the same size. 421 is shorter, but wider, Helia 44 is longer, but narrower.
I'd really like a 3-bed over a 4 and a sport top over fly, but price will be the main factor.
The main concern on a 421 is the small rear deck. That is where I feel most time will be spent and the Helia 44 rules on that department. The Helia also has a sport top, but nice flybridge layout. I have a feeling in about 1.5 years, the 3 bed Helia 44 wont be down to 350k.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes, the 3 cabin owners version would be luxury


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## pkdkhn2 (Jul 29, 2019)

serpa4 said:


> I only have about 5 months of sailing a 15 foot boat on a lake. I've been a power boater most my life and love the ocean and lakes. Why I think I'd like sailing the world:
> 1) I love to travel over seas. My parents and I am boat retired military. I've been to about 18 countries.
> 2) Love water and the ocean
> 3) Been to many foreign countries and want to see a lot more
> ...


I'm open to thoughts. I'm still learning and planning.


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