# Is it still too early for all electric cruising?



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

A very interesting article.

*Electric Shock by Jimmy Cornell*

My decision to abandon the *Elcano Challenge* has taken by surprise many of those who have been following my voyage, and I want to apologies to all of you for the disappointment this may have caused. After my recent brief announcement, I owe it to you to explain in detail the reasons for my decision.

In my long life I cannot remember ever abandoning a promising project, and it is very painful to accept failure now, but I am a fatalist and whenever I am faced with such a situation, I simply accept it and move on.

Sailing around the world on an electric boat with zero emissions along the route of the first circumnavigation, was such a tempting opportunity to do something meaningful and in tune with our concern for protecting the environment, that my family agreed that I should do it. They are just as disappointed as I am for it and accept my reasons, so I hope you will do the same.

The essential feature of an electric boat concept is not its propulsion, but the ability to produce electricity while sailing. It's no good having an electricity-driven boat if you cannot produce electricity to replace what has been used, which is the function and key element of the Oceanvolt regeneration system. While sailing, the propellers on the two saildrives are turning and producing electricity. I had been assured that we could expect an average charge of 600 Watts at 6 knots and 800 Watts at 8 knots. During the tests carried out at La Grande Motte, where the Outremer boatyard is based in the south of France, we achieved those figures, and I was persuaded.

Our 1000-mile maiden voyage from La Grande Motte to Seville showed up some of the weaknesses of the regeneration system when it failed to keep up with the overall consumption on a proper voyage, not during a test in calm waters. The consumption included both the autopilot and instruments, and also domestic demands such as induction cooker, microwave oven, two fridges, etc. My doubts started after we had sailed 82 miles in a period of 10 hours at an average speed of 8.2 knots. The net gain was a disappointing 9.5% of our total battery capacity, equivalent to 5.32 kWh, or 532 Watts per hour.

Fortunately we had with us Romain Guiraudou of the Outremer design office, who had supervised the refining and implementation of the Oceanvolt system. He suggested that we cut down our electricity consumption to the absolute minimum, which we did. Over the next few days our Spartan lifestyle did help us keep enough power in the battery banks to allow us to make it to Ceuta, where we arrived with the battery capacity down to 12% of its total. We recharged the batteries and continued to Seville.

I decided to blame that disappointing start on the capricious Mediterranean winds and weather, expecting to fare better on the subsequent 700-mile passage to the Canaries. Having learned the lessons of the previous passage, we did our best to keep electricity consumption to the minimum. I kept a detailed record over this entire passage, and the results were consistently and disappointingly the same. When we left Chipiona, at the mouth of the Guadalquivir, the state of the battery banks was 50%. When we arrived off Tenerife, before starting the motors to enter the marina, the batteries were down to 40%, but at one point the level had fallen to an alarming 13.5%.

What this passage has shown was that in spite of all our efforts to save energy, we were unable to regenerate sufficient electricity to cover consumption and top up the batteries. We realised that if we did not reduce the overall consumption, the batteries could be completely depleted. To avoid such a situation, on several days we did not use the electric winches, avoided using the power-hungry electric cooker, and instead cooked or heated up some of our meals in a solar cooker. We cut personal consumption to the absolute minimum, we did not boil water, had no hot drinks, turned off the two fridges, and either had cold food or whatever we managed to bake in our solar cooker.

This was a typical offshore passage, with both light and strong winds, and a good example of what we could encounter on some future passages where we might not be able to count on consistent favourable sailing conditions. My understanding was that even if the level of the two-battery banks fell to a critical level, once we got better sailing conditions, we should be able to recharge the batteries quickly. Unfortunately what became obvious on this passage was that the net charge produced by the two propellers was nowhere near the level needed to recharge the two banks in a reasonable time. On average we found that the two propellers could only produce an hourly net charge of 0.6% of the total battery capacity, equivalent to 336 Watts.

The only conclusion I could draw was that in its present form, the regeneration system, and implicitly the entire concept, was not working. Our efforts to save electricity helped, but made little difference in the end: even when sailing conditions were good and we were sailing fast, the regeneration could not keep pace. It was a heart-wrenching discovery as we realised that our voyage and the entire project of a self-sufficient electric vessel could end in failure. The system might work on a passage to the Caribbean in tradewind conditions, or even on a Mediterranean cruise where one could stop in a marina every night and charge the batteries, but not on a challenging route such as the one we were embarking on. It would certainly work in a hybrid version with an auxiliary diesel generator, but that would defeat the aim of this project of proving that it is possible to undertake long voyages on an electric sailing boat.

In fairness to Outremer I must point out that CEO Xavier Demarest, general manager Stephane Grimault and head of the design office Stephane Renard all advised me to have an auxiliary generator, even if only to be used in an emergency. But I refused, as it would have defeated the very concept of a zero emissions sailing boat. Only now, with the wisdom of hindsight, do I see that what they regarded as a possible emergency situation, sooner or later would have become the norm.

As we came into the marina in Tenerife, ready to take our lines was my friend Michael Holm, the owner of _Anemis_, the first hybrid Garcia Exploration 45. Having bought this boat on my inspiration, I was there at her launch in Cherbourg in June last year, and have been following Michael and his family travels ever since.

An electrical engineer by profession, he was the best person to comment on my predicament. His verdict was unequivocal: "Jimmy, your concept may be right but it is premature. There is no way an electric sailing vessel of any size could regenerate sufficient electricity to keep the battery bank, however large, in balance and cover all consumption at the same time. This is why I decided on a hybrid solution. And by the way, after 18 months and an Atlantic crossing, my own regeneration system, based on an electric motor with shaft drive and folding propeller, is still not working to my satisfaction. In fact, it doesn't work at all."

Michael's comments made me realise that I had arrived at a critical point. If we decided to continue our voyage along the proposed route, stopping occasionally to fully charge the batteries seemed unavoidable. Once we had passed the Cape Verde Islands, the nearest place to make such a stop would be over 1500 miles away, with the equator and doldrums to cross on the way.

The prospect of being forced to stop in Brazil, where the Covid situation is totally out of control, was another risk I was not prepared to take. I had already decided to spend the winter in the Canaries when I saw the latest forecast and the possibility of three days of southerly winds. It was a temptation impossible to resist. We left immediately and are now close to having sailed half the distance to Gibraltar. As we left Tenerife, Michael was on the dock to cast off our lines. His last words were, "Jimmy, sail straight to Outremer and have them install you a decent genset!"

And that's where we are going.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm surprised he truly expected otherwise. It will happen one day, but the math just doesn't work yet.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised.


----------



## skipmac (Oct 31, 2007)

I think the trial would have had a much better chance of success if that boat had been set up to be more efficient in power use. Electric cooking is a huge power draw but I guess propane would violate the goal of zero emissions. Also unless I missed it, I saw no mention of solar panels, only regen power. On a cat there should be room for a lot of solar.


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

A trial without controls
Hence...report of a personal experience


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

2 fridges? Electric winches. How was the solar performing?


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I looked long and hard a few years ago at going all-electric. The motors are available. They even make direct drop-in marine options. They're pricey, but not ridiculous. But it all comes down to batteries, and more importantly, charging capacity.

Despite the gains in storage capacity, it's still not possible to duplicate the kind of range one can get -- far more easily -- with good old diesel. But the even harder challenge is recharging the batteries without shore power. Unless you're going to resort to some sort of dino-generator, it's virtually impossible to keep batteries up over week time periods.

I look forward to the day when all-electric is viable. It would be awesome. But until we see more than just linear improvement in electron storage, and similar leaps in passive charging capacity, I just don't see it happening for cruising boats.

But if you're a daysailer, or someone who only spends a few nights off the dock at a time, then electric should be fine right now.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

At least Jimmy is honest in his report.

But nutz in the idea that 2 spinning screws in salt water is a viable ONLY battery charging option. One minor bit of fishing net in a prop and you're stuffed.
Of course the boat should have been totally decked with solar panels... and wind generator. But I spose thats been done.

If the world, and the 'environmentalists' really gave a stuff about carbon they would be flocking to nuclear power.
If we'd been developing nuclear full tilt for the last 30 years there'd be such advances in science that I bet we'd have some type of nuclear power on sailing boats. (maybe not a reactor per se but something).

[Researchers in Israel (Dr. Yigal Ronen) designed a thermal heterogeneous reactor [1] that was designed to weigh 4.95 kgs and had a radius of 9.6 cm (<4" radius) and a power output of a few kilowatts. This small Israeli reactor design was spherical in shape and was powered by a solution of Am-242m(NO3)3 in water. When a fission reactor is very small in size (<10 cm radius sphere) it requires relatively little total lead shielding to fully enclose the reactor with 11" of lead to provide protection from penetrating gamma radiation for the vehicle operator. What is the smallest nuclear reactor ever built? Would it be possible to ever make one small enough to power a car? - Quora ]


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> But nutz in the idea that 2 spinning screws in salt water is a viable ONLY battery charging option. One minor bit of fishing net in a prop and you're stuffed.
> Of course the boat should have been totally decked with solar panels... and wind generator. But I spose thats been done.


It was crazy, not to have installed all the tried-and-true passive charging systems: solar and wind. My boat operates 98% dino-charging free during my cruising season. My electricity needs are small compared to Jimmy's boat, but it works just fine. I can be off the dock to months with no need to run primary diesel, or the backup gas generator.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> If the world, and the 'environmentalists' really gave a stuff about carbon they would be flocking to nuclear power.
> If we'd been developing nuclear full tilt for the last 30 years there'd be such advances in science that I bet we'd have some type of nuclear power on sailing boats. (maybe not a reactor per se but something).


Cool... nuclear powered sailboat. I'd never have to come in .


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Jimmy is 80 now. I kinda want electric winches too at that age. But coupled with induction cooking we are not talking about a normal boat but really high consumption.
If youre advertising 'zero carbon emissions' then its gota be completely free, i spose, not just a trade off. But having a crew eat cold food on a long passage is a safety factor imho. OK in an emergency but prudence...
2019 Outremer 45 on yacht World for US$ 870,709 tax not paid. So a new boat is US$1 million + ... and then add the electrical kit...

He has done the right thing to scrap the project. Outremer is going to be a bit red-faced. maybe they will stick to Riley and Elayna on La Vagabond in future.

Jimmy's book World Cruising Essentials was, maybe, the most important book I read before cruising. He surveyed all the boats in the early World ARCs to find out which equipment worked and which didn't. So I'm very surprised that with his absolutely solid knowledge of cruising boats he's made this mistake. maybe we can think that even he has been deluded by sales peoples hype.
World Cruising Essentials : The Boats, Gear, and Practices That Work Best at Sea: Cornell, Jimmy: 9780071414258: Amazon.com: Books

I can only think that this quantum leap from the standard solar, wind and back up generator to total electric one just one system, has been a bit of a disaster for the Outremer and Oceanvolt.


----------



## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

We have 400W wind and 1,200W of solar on the big boat. In the Caribbean it is very rare to have to resort to additional charging. Mid latitudes it is very different. The biggest draw we have is our fridge, except when we have to heat and that requires electricity to operate the Espar.

Here in NC is a fellow who just converted his 40’er to electric propulsion. He took a trip ip the coast for some weeks with a portable generator to gage things. Now he is back with plans to install a sufficient sized genset to achieve 6 knots minimum sustained. No idea his time parameter.

Abive the problem was stated as the batteries. I think it would help to make that a bit more general, the problem is “power storage and conversion” and also “power density”. We could use compressed air, or fuel cells or whatever to store the power. Batteries are just one option, the best one at this time. 

When comparing to diesel we are essentially looking at the power density of the finished fuel and then comparing that to some instant process where all the collection and storage apparatus has to be carried aboard. We want to do instantly what it took nature millions of years. Tall order.

Perhaps it would be better to set ip some shore side collection facility that creates diesel from wind/solar and other inputs and then use the product to run our boats. Then we would not be so weight, space and TIME restrained. We know how to distill fuel from waste products through controlled combustion. Maybe there is some way to do that more efficiently using electricity, generated sustainably.

In the meantime we should be grateful for what we have and try to conserve it.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I think he had 1,000W of solar on the boat with plans to add more.

Something isn't making sense with his numbers in that article. Putting them together, he has 51,000Wh of battery capacity, which would equate to ~4,000Ah at a nominal 12V. This is a huge capacity. He implies through the numbers that his daily power usage _while under extreme conservation measures_ is 400Ah/day, and that does not include any use of the engines. This is a huge draw whose source remains a mystery. I'm thinking either something is terribly wrong on that boat, or numbers got a bit jangled in translation to the article.

The regeneration from the props worked to spec during the initial sea trials and outfitting, but dropped to under 20% of spec during the passage. Something seems odd there. I certainly don't expect them to perform to test specs, but if they can only manage 20% in real life, then OceanVolt has no business being in business.

After two years of planning the boat and its systems, including working closely with the manufacturer's engineers and technicians, he actually stated that he believed two engines regenerating at 600W would "be able to recharge the (51,000Wh) batteries quickly". This is a jaw-dropping statement showing no understanding of electricity management at all. Unless he considers 40hrs (with no other loads) as "quick".

Again, either something got garbled in the numbers as this article was written, or something is terribly wrong with the boat and its systems, or this was a complete cockup of epic proportions.

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I forgot to point out that it appears none of his issues were related to actually using his engines. He simply could not keep up with the electrical draw of operating the boat. This is strange to me because we run an induction hob, our 6gal water heater, two reefers, two freezers, and our 120V 30gph watermaker off 540Ah of batteries and 1200W of solar with no issue. Even right now in the shorter days of the year at relatively high latitude. 

Again, I think something is wrong on that boat and systems, or his numbers are incorrect in the article.

In general, though, I agree that electric propulsion and all-electric boat systems are not ready for full-time cruising boats without significant tradeoffs, and I don't think they ever will be in my lifetime.

Mark


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

colemj said:


> The regeneration from the props worked to spec during the initial sea trials and outfitting, but dropped to under 20% of spec during the passage. Something seems odd there. I certainly don't expect them to perform to test specs, but if they can only manage 20% in real life, then OceanVolt has no business being in business.


My wind generator only really works in a very constant wind. If its at all gusty it doesnt seem to charge much when the rotor is spinning up or down. (and it cuts off at 25 knots so its usless as thats where it charges well)

So if these spinning propellers are the same, waves may make quite an impact, in a 12 second wave period one could lose seconds going downhill and more when the boat goes uphill.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> My wind generator only really works in a very constant wind. If its at all gusty it doesnt seem to charge much when the rotor is spinning up or down. (and it cuts off at 25 knots so its usless as thats where it charges well)
> 
> So if these spinning propellers are the same, waves may make quite an impact, in a 12 second wave period one could lose seconds going downhill and more when the boat goes uphill.


Which would be made worse by the fact that unlike your windgen props, boat props are not optimally pitched or sized for power generation by fluid flowing over them from the expected direction for regeneration. Otherwise, I don't know how they react to instantaneous changes in water speed. I'd suspect there is some hysteresis due to the denser medium.

Regardless, the thinking that 1200W of generation will "quickly" charge a 51kWh battery while powering normal 450W loads is flawed by the simple math alone. He would have been better off with dedicated hydrogenerators that are commercially available and work well.

BTW, I just looked up his boat and he did have 1300W of solar on it.

Mark


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Putting money into a windgen was one of the most expensive mistakes I've made on Skipping Stone. I was hoping for at least an amp or two an hour average, but the reality is much less than that, probably more like a quarter amp or even less over a year. I don't think I'l replace it when it dies.


----------



## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I just saw this today. Electric boats may be closer than we thought.









VW-backed QuantumScape says its solid-state batteries will enable EVs to travel farther and charge faster


The batteries will appear first in Volkswagen vehicles in 2024.




www.theverge.com


----------



## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Some more info on the technology. They say they will be in production in 2024.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The worlds greatest brains are working on batteries now, right now. Elon Musk's Tesla (company, not car) will be the richest company in the world, behind Amazon, if they solve it first. But anyone else, too, can solve it sooner. We just don't know how soon it will be.

I just don't want to be the first person to go to sea with the new tech.
I dont wanna be on the first shuttle to Mars.
I wanna let others have the first doses of Vaccine.




Mark


----------



## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

The whole question regarding the readiness of electric technology for cruising boats is obvious to me. If you start with the assumption that you can cruise WITHOUT A MOTOR, then, obviously you can cruise with an electric motor. Obviously, you won't be able to motor for days, you will only be able to motor for hours. Having even a few hours of power will make launching and landing much easier, and will improve safety at sea compared to not having any engine.


----------



## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

FWIW, This couple has been cruising off grid for 4-5 years. The below is a link to their discussion about such:






This one is on the upgrade they made this past season to a different electric dive, also an Ocean Volt:






...and if you wish to understand their story(boat) a bit more:

(below decks)




(on deck)





Worth a watch. Enjoy!


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Batteries aren't really the issue. Current battery technology can store immense amount of power in relatively small and light packages. Our 7.5kWh of batteries are the size of a small microwave and weigh 140lbs. However, there is no free lunch, and that power must be returned at a reasonable rate to keep up with usage. This is the issue Cornell had. Who here thinks 51kWh of battery capacity is small?

As for the motor part, keep in mind that Cornell ran out of electricity routinely without even using his motors. His problem had nothing to do with electric motors themselves, other than their regeneration wasn't working to spec.

The thread is about all electric cruising, which encompasses the whole enchilada, not just electric motors or galley.

Personally, I'm curious to know what Cornell's plan was when not on passage where the prop regeneration is useless. Was he planning to sail only from marina to marina where he could hook up to power, or to do the trip non-stop? He did not have enough solar to support his consumption at anchor.

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Interlude said:


> FWIW, This couple has been cruising off grid for 4-5 years.


There are also others. As I mentioned earlier, there are tradeoffs necessary to accomplish this. Most would not accept these tradeoffs at this time. Particularly if it wasn't bringing them income through a youtube channel and other advertising dependent on doing just that.

Mark


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

The 1300 solar doesnt make sense
They would be celebrating birthdays while bringing the batts back to full


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

To me, the issue isn't whether you cruise with electric engines ... of course you can. The question is, can one exchange diesel for electric and get something approaching the same capabilities. This is where things get challenging. 

For those who marina hop, or only spend a few days out at a time, then electric would be great right now. But if you're travelling long and far, without being able to recharge via shorepower, you need an efficient way to recharge the batteries. 

This remains the problem on smallish cruising boats. Despite the great advances in storage and passive charging (non-dino) systems, I just don't see how one can maintain the batteries over weeks or months. You just can't cram enough solar, wind and water generator capacity on board our smallish boats.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

MikeOReilly said:


> The question is, can one exchange diesel for electric and get something approaching the same capabilities.


Yes, this is exactly the way to put the question. I've had countless (friendly) debates with people over the past few years about the appropriateness of electric engines on cruising boats. Several of them converted their boats. To a person, everyone touting electric go on about how great it is, while being completely blind to the way they actually describe it, and the compromises they made.

As examples, they all talk about the amazing ability to glide silently away from anchor/dock, but when confronted with a top speed of 3kts for only a couple of hours capacity, they simply respond that nobody needs to go any faster for any longer than that. When asked about how they make miles when there is no wind, they just say that a sailboat is meant to be sailed, not motored, and they wait for wind. When asked about how they travel places like the US ICW, they say they just wait for favorable winds and currents and go on those days and times under sail - after all, they are cruisers and not on a schedule. When asked how they would ever cross through the Panama Canal to continue into new cruising grounds, they are completely silent.

So yes, diesel engines can be exchanged for electric ones, but they are not equivalent, and one must be honest about the tradeoff. Diesel engines can also be exchanged for 3hp outboards with 2 liters of fuel in exactly the same manner.

But they are not equivalent.

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

RegisteredUser said:


> The 1300 solar doesnt make sense
> They would be celebrating birthdays while bringing the batts back to full


I suspect they were counting on the solar for when they weren't moving, as well as supplementing the regeneration. However, something is very wrong with their energy budget or on-board systems because that evidently isn't enough to run their boat. Seems strange to me because we have 1200W of solar and it is about the shortest day of the year today (yes, I know the day will be a couple of minutes shorter in 10 days) and we have banked 375Ah so far with a couple hours of sun more to go. We electrically heated 6gal of water, made 45gal of water, and have had 2 computers running all day and our batteries are at 85%.

On the other hand, they would be celebrating birthdays bringing their batteries to full using regeneration also, so that too evidently wasn't thought out well.

I still have difficulty believing that engineers from OceanVolt and Outremer could be so far off on such simple calculations. Particularly for such a high profile project planned specifically for this usage and widely advertised. I suspect there are problems with equipment or implementation, or the numbers presented are incorrect (which would suggest a whole different set of equally questionable issues).

Mark


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I wanna let others have the first doses of Vaccine.


Tens of thousands of people got the doses in the trials. How many more before you're in?


----------



## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

This electrical engineer, says "duh." What the hell is it with these paper engineers, none of them ever actually live in the real world? Not sure why anyone would have expected anything else. Figured a sailor would not have believed it as well, as their experience should have wanted backup systems as part of any of this "testing."

You'd likely do better with a bunch of solar panels. Or how about, solar, wind, and oceanvolt... between the 3 maybe., without the use of the hairdryers, and washing machines of course.

Also, microwave? electric winches? methinks there needs to be a balance of understanding of capabilities here. Hard to beat a small diesel for power generation though.


----------



## Calmwater (Aug 5, 2018)

capta said:


> A very interesting article.
> 
> *Electric Shock by Jimmy Cornell*
> 
> ...


----------



## Calmwater (Aug 5, 2018)

Going with electric propulsion has been my dream for the last years. On paper it looked doable for ocean crossing but only with a good diesel generator and not only for emergencies but for safety and quality of life while cruising.

Sailors went circumnavigation without any engine and even without solar panels until the late 80’s and even called it “fun”. It is of course a highly individual matter of preferences and priorities and I can only admire those outstanding courageous sailors.

For me, fun means having communication, lighting, tools and propulsion when needed and wanted and less worries - not that a 100HP engine and a big diesel generator aren’t a continuous source of worries... 

For short day and some coastal light cruising an all electric can work really well in the state of the art. 

Thanks to the electric cars industry it may be feasible for more than that in a few years.


----------



## seattle sailor (Sep 5, 2020)

capta said:


> A very interesting article.
> 
> *Electric Shock by Jimmy Cornell*
> 
> ...


Hui


SHNOOL said:


> This electrical engineer, says "duh." What the hell is it with these paper engineers, none of them ever actually live in the real world? Not sure why anyone would have expected anything else. Figured a sailor would not have believed it as well, as their experience should have wanted backup systems as part of any of this "testing."
> 
> You'd likely do better with a bunch of solar panels. Or how about, solar, wind, and oceanvolt... between the 3 maybe., without the use of the hairdryers, and washing machines of course.
> 
> Also, microwave? electric winches? methinks there needs to be a balance of understanding of capabilities here. Hard to beat a small diesel for power generation though.


I have had two 80 watt panels for many years and don't have to charge my batteries (3 ea @100 AH, 12 V, group 31). But my lights are LED and my perkins 4.108 makes hot water, 12 V and propulsion. Cook using propane, heat using a Dickinson oil heater. I use ice, no refrigeration. I use the boat exclusively in the summer and anchor at night. Seems to work for me. 1971 40 ft Swan sailing out of Seattle


----------



## theologymatt (Dec 11, 2020)

Echoing what a number of others have said... electric winches, induction cooker, and other power-hungry demands, I'm not sure what he expected. What about an alcohol stove, LED lights, manual pumps for fresh water, etc.? Then, the regen only has to cover instruments and autopilot (unless using a windvane). It seems like the math could work with a different configuration.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

theologymatt said:


> Echoing what a number of others have said... electric winches, induction cooker, and other power-hungry demands, I'm not sure what he expected. What about an alcohol stove, LED lights, manual pumps for fresh water, etc.? Then, the regen only has to cover instruments and autopilot (unless using a windvane). It seems like the math could work with a different configuration.


instruments can use a lot of amps... my radar does... AP the same... some use more than others... but a wind vane uses none!

I wonder if it makes sense to have a bladder which can be manually pumped to pressurize a water system? Or if such a thing exists???? I wouldn't bother but who knows????


----------



## seattle sailor (Sep 5, 2020)

Look at uTube: "sailingUMA" they have been electric for several years. It's not the way I'm doing it


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I wonder if it makes sense to have a bladder which can be manually pumped to pressurize a water system?


More effective to have a foot pump, I would think.


----------



## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

SanderO said:


> instruments can use a lot of amps... my radar does... AP the same... some use more than others... but a wind vane uses none!
> 
> I wonder if it makes sense to have a bladder which can be manually pumped to pressurize a water system? Or if such a thing exists???? I wouldn't bother but who knows????


Some people use those garden chemical sprayers. I have a 3 gallon one that keeps pressure for a long time. Produces a lower water volume than a normal shower. I would imagine there would be a way to install something like that permanently.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> More effective to have a foot pump, I would think.


not for showering I would think


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I wonder if it makes sense to have a bladder which can be manually pumped to pressurize a water system? Or if such a thing exists???? I wouldn't bother but who knows????


I used a bladder-style for years. It was OK, but was awkward and hard to get any real pressure. About 10 years ago I got the idea to convert a garden sprayer into a portable shower. Have used it ever since.

The great thing about this setup is that you can pressurize it to whatever flow you like. I found a black one, so it heats up nicely in the sun. I extended the hose and changed the sprayer head to a small trigger-style nozzle of the type typically found in kitchen sinks. This gives excellent pressure that is finely controllable.

Mine is similar to this one:


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

My shower, not in France in winter, is a solar bag that sits on deck and warms and the hose goes in the head window. Perfect.

PLUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS You can adjust the temperature of the water exactly!! If you have a shower at 2pm its too cold. 2:30pm and its too hot, but a shower at 2:17pm (and 37 seconds) is perfect!


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> not for showering I would think


Why not? Shower sprayer in your hand, foot on the pump.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I switched to electric auxillary propulsion about a year and a half ago. "Vacation Cruising" One to two weeks at a time. Mostly off grid. I still use alcohol for cooking and heat. I don't imagine my boat could possibly carry enough solar for electric cooking with current technology.

Motoring speed and range is severely limited compared to a gas motor. But on the other hand it's a lot better than I could reasonably expect to get from a scull, oars or yuloh, which is what I did every time the carbeurator gummed up on my old (2015) outboard.

On sunny calm days it's reasonable to expect the boat to go all day at very slow speeds. Of course if its windy, well, it's a sailboat and with the amount of sail area I carry, doesn't take much wind. Upwind in narrow channels can be challenging.

For an off grid live aboard I would think it would be different, but for people like me who live in a house and use their boats for inland and coastal recreational purposes, it seems fine. 

I am upgrading my old AGM to lithium in the spring because I feel like it and I can, so why not


----------



## seattle sailor (Sep 5, 2020)

I use mine in the cockpit. I can sit and it drains to the sea. Suits me fine: I shower once a year, in the summer when it's warm .


----------



## seattle sailor (Sep 5, 2020)

I have been using three (3) group 31, 13 in. long, sealed batteries. They have a little sight glass to inspect for state of charge. I did buy them from the local Peterbilt truck shop, about $110 ea. That was in 2007. Maybe I should get new batteries in Spring. So, what's good about Lithium ?


----------



## DougH (Aug 9, 2020)

MikeOReilly said:


> For those who marina hop, or only spend a few days out at a time, then electric would be great right now.


But what would be the point? Safe bet that the electricity at the marinas was created from power plants that rely largely on CO2-producing technology. Or is it cheaper to remove your diesel engine and install an electric engine and the associated support apparatus? Or is there some other reason to convert to all electric for marina hoppers?


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

DougH said:


> But what would be the point? Safe bet that the electricity at the marinas was created from power plants that rely largely on CO2-producing technology. Or is it cheaper to remove your diesel engine and install an electric engine and the associated support apparatus? Or is there some other reason to convert to all electric for marina hoppers?


 In Ontario where I do most of my cruising our last coal plant closed in 2014. But even in places using old technology to generate electricity, you have economies of scale. A steam turbine as big as a house generates energy much more efficiently than a 2 stroke outboard.

But aside from that its quieter, less stinky and can be regenerated by the sun, not just marina plug ins. I have a small solar electric set up on my boat and have yet to plug in to a marina, although I would if it was practical.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

DougH said:


> But what would be the point? Safe bet that the electricity at the marinas was created from power plants that rely largely on CO2-producing technology. Or is it cheaper to remove your diesel engine and install an electric engine and the associated support apparatus? Or is there some other reason to convert to all electric for marina hoppers?


I can think of many other reasons to convert to electric other than concern for green house gas emissions. Simpler, quieter operation, more power. But I doubt you'd convert from diesel to electric to save money. It's not clear to me it is cheaper in the long run -- at least not yet.


----------



## DougH (Aug 9, 2020)

Arcb said:


> In Ontario where I do most of my cruising our last coal plant closed in 2014. But even in places using old technology to generate electricity, you have economies of scale. A steam turbine as big as a house generates energy much more efficiently than a 2 stroke outboard.
> 
> But aside from that its quieter, less stinky and can be regenerated by the sun, not just marina plug ins. I have a small solar electric set up on my boat and have yet to plug in to a marina, although I would if it was practical.


In the US electricity is produced as follows(latest available info. from 2019):
natural gas 38%
coal 23%
nuclear 20%
hydro 7%
wind 7%
solar 2%
other 3%
source: Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

I like my diesel just fine and plan to use it for many years to come.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

DougH said:


> In the US electricity is produced as follows(latest available info. from 2019):
> natural gas 38%
> coal 23%
> nuclear 20%
> ...


Plus the 45 Twh of electricity it imports from Canada.

I mentioned in "Ontario", that's because that's where I live. Wasn't even think about the US when I answered.


----------



## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> I can think of many other reasons to convert to electric other than concern for green house gas emissions. Simpler, quieter operation, more power. But I doubt you'd convert from diesel to electric to save money. It's not clear to me it is cheaper in the long run -- at least not yet.


I'm with Mike, honestly we can have a real discussion about electric motor propulsion, as a reliable and quiet alternative. A local sailor converted his Oday 35 over, and loves it. It moves the boat well. What gets me though is the amount of battery required to power it. I've heard folks argue its lighter than a diesel. The motor certainly is, but you add the batteries into the equation, and its a wash at best. I've had my fun with outboards giving me grief so being able to just push a button would be celebrated. So far my diesel has been good (crosses toes and fingers), and as long as it is (its 40 years old after all), I'll be happy. Give me an electric motor and battery setup that lasts half that long or even 1/4 you might have something... So yeah even 1/4 the lifespan and roughly the same weight, that lasts 1/4 as long and maybe we'd have something. Saving the environment? Not sure we're there (the making of the batteries would call that into question). I'm hoping for "Mr. Fusion" to prove that one out.

One day we WILL get there, and these are the baby steps along the way. For that it really is a learning experience and I salute those that are the firsters. I'm just not so dedicated to blow through that kind of money on it.

I'd like to remind folks that there wasn't a whole lot of batteries, or combustion engines for those that settled the "new world." Telling me that it's "possible" to do it, is a solid understanding of history at least.


----------



## DougH (Aug 9, 2020)

Kudos to those first adopters. Maybe they have more spare money and time than I do. And are willing to accept the downsides of going full electric. Here is what seems to be a pretty good article on one guy's experience: What's the Point of an Electric Engine on a Sailboat? | My Boat Life

He listed the downsides as range and recharge time. He was only able to go hull speed for 1 hour on a shore-power recharge. Maybe things have improved since he wrote the article. I hope so.

My 1987 Cal 33 ( original Yanmar 3gm30F) runs as well as the day it was new and nothing has ever failed on it (yet). The modern diesel is in a high state of engineering refinement, I believe. I don't have the problem of a dirty bilge like Tom Briggs did. Also, I find oil changes to be quick and dead simple. I installed a Facet electric flow-thru fuel pump that I only use when bleeding and it made that task even easier and quicker. It will also serve as a backup fuel pump should the mechanical pump fail (it never has).

A possible diesel benefit Briggs did not mention was I get hot water for free as I motor in to anchor or to a slip. Plenty of hot water for me and the wife to shower and to clean dishes after dinner. Further, I can use the diesel's alternator as a built-in generator to recharge my house batteries or start battery. Works well when motoring for a long time.

The Cal has a 24 gallon fuel tank. I've never done precise fuel consumption measurements but I know that I have run the boat at hull speed under engine alone for well over 50 hours ( days of either calm wind or wanting to travel directly into the wind). Plenty of diesel fuel left. "Recharge" time is how long does it take to pump 20+ gallons at the fuel dock.

The noise and vibration of the Yanmar are not objectionable to me. Maybe the sound insulation is very good on this boat. But certainly I would like the near silence of an electric motor.

Anyway, please don't read this as knocking an all electric. I'm sure someday we'll all be doing it. But for me considering the realities of where we are today I have no intention of ripping out "old reliable". Again, kudos to those pioneering early adopters.

-Doug


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Battery weight and space aren't a problem because anyone pursuing electric propulsion today would use lithium batteries (otherwise, it is silly). Our 8kWh of batteries weigh 148lbs and take up 17"x14"x11" of space. Pretty much any boat can fit suitable battery storage.

But again, the problem is fitting charging capacity. Battery capacity after the first run of the motor is useless without equal charging capacity to allow it to run again. Electric motors may work well for daysailing from a dock, but become a real practical problem for a cruising boat. We have 1255W of solar, and that is just enough to balance our 8kWh of battery capacity under normal cruising house loads without electric engines.

For the foreseeable future, charging will remain the problem, not battery capacity, weight, space, technology or electric motor technology.

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

DougH said:


> Here is what seems to be a pretty good article on one guy's experience: What's the Point of an Electric Engine on a Sailboat? | My Boat Life


That guy also made the mistake everyone switching to electric makes - believing that an "electric" horsepower is different than a "mechanical" horsepower. He thinks his 5.5kW motor is equivalent to a 11-18hp diesel engine (probably because the manufacturer told him this), which is not true. He really has a 7hp equivalent, and his boat behaves like it just lost half its propulsion power because it actually did.

Mark


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

DougH said:


> What's the Point of an Electric Engine on a Sailboat? | My Boat Life
> 
> He listed the downsides as range and recharge time. He was only able to go hull speed for 1 hour on a shore-power recharge. Maybe things have improved since he wrote the article. I hope so.


The article also says 8 hours for 25 nms.. ie @ 3 knots in calm water.

If you are in a pickle and you need to motor against the wind & current you could really get into strife.

Though, if the person is a day sailor in a confined waterway, like Sydney Harbour, or a lake, river etc it might be quite acceptable.

Mark


----------



## DougH (Aug 9, 2020)

Arcb said:


> I do know of several electric conversions, none that I know have involved removing a perfectly functioning diesel and heading across an open ocean. They seem to involve; old diesels that are totally shot and need replacing, atomic 4's that are maybe still running but the owner feels they are due to for replacement, or by far the most common is outboard powered boats. Yes these are probably operating in more protected waters. In North America it is quite reasonable to cruise hundreds or even over 1000 miles or more without ever leaving inland waters.


If I had to scrap my 3gm30 tomorrow I would immediately replace it with a new equivalent Yanmar (3ym I believe). This is based on the utility value of the diesel: range/speed, recharge time, makes hot water, charges my start and house batteries. Also, and I admit to not having researched this thoroughly, the initial cost looks significantly lower than an all electric setup. A new diesel that goes another 33 years will probably outlive me.

I cruise the Great Lakes, the fresh water oceans.

But then there was Lin and Larry Pardey 

-Doug


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I cruise the great lakes too 

Personally I think the Great Lakes are ideally suited to experimenting with electric propulsion. There are no tidal currents to be concerned with. Most harbours are less than a couple mile run out into open water where you can set your sails. There is usually enough wind to sail once you are on open water. You can go any where on the Great Lakes with short day light hops of 20 or 25 miles between harbours or anchorages. There are canals maintained specifically for pleasure craft cruising between great lakes and the lock stations even provide $10 a night charging stations to make it easy.

My boat set up with say a Torqeedo 1103 and 200 watts of solar should be able to achieve; 40 miles at 2 knots, 18 miles at 3 knots and about 5 miles at 5 knots. The 200 watts of solar should be able to fully regenerate the 915 wh Lithium Ion battery on a sunny day. But, aside from the canals there is no reason to run the battery down because you can sail most places relatively easily. I have experimented and measured and assuming I sail most of the time I am only burning through a couple hundred WH a day maneuvering with electric propulsion. I think there is no where on the great lakes I couldn't safely go with that set up. If I brought one spare battery, which isn't cheap at about $1000, I can double the above ranges without recharge to 80 miles, 36 miles and 10 miles. At 2 knots I should be able to run directly off a 200 watt solar panel and not even touch my battery life on a sunny day.

On a small boat that sails well, with small power demands, I think cruising places like the great lakes even for weeks or months is currently within the capabilities of solar electric propulsion. I am not sure it would work with refrigeration or electric cooking. Probably not.

A thought about the guy in one of the above articles on the Chesapeake Bay. 300 pounds of batteries and 150 watts of solar. Assuming he is using AGM he is probably in the neighborhood 3000 usable WH of battery life with 150 watts of solar and he burns though his battery bank in one hour at hull speed or 8 hours at 3 knots. You are looking at several days to regenerate, maybe 4 or 5. Needs more solar. I am not sure if he has room for it or not, but for solar electric conversion to work, I think you need the right platform to work with in the first place.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

It would be an interesting real-world test Arcb. Could you do as you outline over, say a month of cruising, on the Great Lakes? Or perhaps I should say, I know you _could_ do it, but what does a real-world experience actually look like. You should give it a whirl. Would make an interesting article.

Of course, your boat is not your typical cruising boat. And that's the problem. To replace a diesel inboard engine, the battery and charging demands are simply not feasible yet. The only way it could work is if you are able to dino-charge, which defeats the purpose of going electric. Or, you plug into shore power every few days.

A few years ago I connected with a fellow who had converted his 40-something catamaran to all-electric. It was an impressive boat. Large battery bank, with solar panels all over the cabin top. I forget the numbers, but it was an impressive amount of amp storage and charging capacity.

Last I heard, he barely made it across Lake Superior before the whole plan fell apart. He simply could not keep his batteries charged, and this was in the summer.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Mike, I have been running solar electric for about a year and a half now. Everything works fine. Now that my proof of concept test is done using a Minnkota and AGM I am ready to spend some money on a proper set up. 

I have done about 10 continuous days off grid with my current up and have not fallen behind on battery regeneration. 

I needed to do some testing for myself to be confident on spending the money. There are so many opinions on the internet and so few are based on the scientific method that to be confident at this stage of the game you really need to run your own tests to determine if will work for you. Exactly as Cornel has done in the OP. Which is great. 

BTW a proper solar electric conversion for my small boat isn't cheap and saving money would probably not be a good motivation to do this right now. Probably about $5000. I could go buy a brand new outboard for $1500.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I know this thread is about cruising, but one of the groups that I race with permits solar electric boats to race in mixed fleet distance racing along with other small boats, mostly sail boats. The solar electrics can't touch a fast sailboat on distance racing, but they can cover about 300 miles in 6 days without any shore assist or charging along the way. That's sleeping and cooking on board, no marinas.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb, one aspect of your cruising that isn't usual for others is that your boat gets to its cruising grounds and back behind a car.

Mark


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

@mbianka converted his diesel to electric years ago.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> @mbianka converted his diesel to electric years ago.


Right! He has a lot of actual experience with this stuff. Haven't seen him around much lately though...


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Arcb said:


> Mike, I have been running solar electric for about a year and a half now. Everything works fine. Now that my proof of concept test is done using a Minnkota and AGM I am ready to spend some money on a proper set up.
> 
> I have done about 10 continuous days off grid with my current up and have not fallen behind on battery regeneration.


That's great to hear. So the 200 watt of solar kept the Torqueedo battery charged. I played with a torqueedo for a while. It would be great with my portabote. But I concluded it would be too hard to maintain the battery. Maybe I was wrong...


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

MikeOReilly said:


> That's great to hear. So the 200 watt of solar kept the Torqueedo battery charged. I played with a torqueedo for a while. It would be great with my portabote. But I concluded it would be too hard to maintain the battery. Maybe I was wrong...


No, the experiment was done with a Minnkota Enduramax with about 480 WH of usable power. I am buying a Torqeedo in the spring. I will have about 9 weeks vacation banked for next year so I will do something cool and report back with results. Might cruise the TSW to Georgian Bay.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> Arcb, one aspect of your cruising that isn't usual for others is that your boat gets to its cruising grounds and back behind a car.
> 
> Mark


This is true. Although I am not sure it would be that different for somebody doing a couple week vacation cruise from a home marina. Most people keep their boats at marinas in their cruising grounds.

Although it would certainly be very different from the kind of long distance cruising that you do.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I thought about getting ride of the gas OB and going electric with a solar panel charging the battery. Spendy and pretty slow and not sure of the range on a smallish battery. 4 stroke 8hp is heavy but fast... ergo too heavy... and only planes with one and a light load.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

These two sentences summed it up:

"My doubts started after we had sailed 82 miles in a period of 10 hours at an average speed of 8.2 knots. The net gain was a disappointing 9.5% of our total battery capacity, equivalent to 5.32 kWh, or 532 Watts per hour."

a. They speced 800 watts total, he had 532 net watts, which means he was using electricity. Duh.
b. "Watts per hour" tells me he does not understand electricity, and by extension, many parts of the operation. He didn't seem to understand the energy balance.

Unfortunately, he was sold on something he did not take the time to understand.

Barquito has another valid point:

"...start with the assumption that you can cruise WITHOUT A MOTOR, then, obviously you can cruise with an electric motor...."

Meaning, the power balance has to work. If you have X generation, you can only use X. I'm quite sure it would work if properly engineered and if the sailor understood the compromises. Flying Cloud didn't have a motor! The question is whether we like the compromises.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Although it would certainly be very different from the kind of long distance cruising that you do.


Yes, I addressed my thoughts on electric drives for the type of cruising we do earlier, but didn't mean for that to be compared to what you are doing. Instead, I was thinking of the many years I spent with a boat home ported in Au Gres Michigan (Au Gres) and cruised each year to the Georgian Bay and North Channel. I don't think electric drive would work well for this (without massive power generation) because the distances traveled to and return were greater and often required either motoring in calm or motor sailing against the wind. As you know, the summer weather on the Great Lakes can be fickle and fierce in both extremes.

BUT. If I could have driven the boat up there for the cruise, then bring it back, I think the equation would be completely different and much more doable with modest battery and solar/small generator. I'm not sure about solar only, as I remember the weather socking in with deep clouds and drizzle for many days at a time occasionally.

Mark


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I agree. That would be a difficult and potentially dangerous trip on my boat. I would certainly trailer that.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Article on electric boats.

According to this article roughly %2 of new boat sales are electric.

The article notes some dealerships are hesitant to sell electric propulsion/boats because there is no money to be made on dealer servicing. No oil changes, no winterization etc. Which, ironically, is one of the primary draws for me towards electric. I assume they are talking about smaller outboard sized motors with the servicing issue.









Power play: Electric boats charge up the boating industry ladder | Boating Industry


Although an early electric boat was developed by German inventor Moritz von Jacobi in 1839, it took more than 30 years of battery and motor development before they became more practical – and popular. And it’s taken another 150 years for them to become a four-and-a-half billion dollar segment...




boatingindustry.com


----------



## DougH (Aug 9, 2020)

Arcb said:


> No oil changes, no winterization etc. Which, ironically, is one of the primary draws for me towards electric. I assume they are talking about smaller outboard sized motors with the servicing issue.


Different people have different thoughts on what sailboat maintenance items are most problematic. For me oil changes and winterizing the engine for for sub 0 F are quick and easy. I always do it myself (inboard diesel). The folks in warm climates must chuckle when they read about this "winterizing" thing. 

Now if somebody could come up with a good long term solution for what seems to be the inevitable through-deck and through-hull water leaks I would be thrilled. As it is, every sailboat I've owned (two S2s and one Cal) have needed ongoing attention to rebedding and sometimes repairing the damage caused by leaks. I always rebed wood cored structures using the oversize hole technique. Drill the hole larger than it was. Fill with thickened epoxy. Final drill to normal smaller size. Bed with your favorite bedding compound. If it ever leaks again (I always try to rebed with butyl so that hasn't happened yet) the epoxy encased hole only allows water to drip inside but never touch the wood core. Too expensive for the manufacturers to build them that way at the factory I suppose.

-Doug


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I do my own maintenance too. I guess I should have included the frequent carb cleaning that seems to come with new small outboards... 😐

If it was oil changes without the carb surgery I might not be as interested in electric.

Fortunately I just have one through hull. Rudder post and it's in it's own water tight compartment. It's a non issue for me. The carbeurator is not.

I was never much of a fan of maintaining an old inboard diesel when I had one either though. It's not the engine, its everything that goes with it. Fuel tanks, through hulls, alternators, belts, starters, keeping the bilge clean etc.


----------



## johnsonjay17 (Jul 20, 2015)

DougH said:


> ... The folks in warm climates must chuckle when they read about this "winterizing" thing. ...
> 
> -Doug


Not true us in warm climates winterize our boats. For example I throw a few extra blankets down below and add hot chocolate to the galley for those cool winter evenings. 
JJ


----------



## Calmwater (Aug 5, 2018)

This discussion can go forever. Until more advanced technologies will get here - in fact, a lot of improvements turned in over the last years, mostly inspired by the electric cars batteries and brushless motors. Hydrogenation still sucks as cars and other industries can’t use it. Solar panels almost tripled efficiency- but all that still enable very few sailing patterns to go all electric.

A light weekend/daysailer can probably be just fine with electric without compromising over the common diesel propulsion.

I’d love to go electric, but that will only be with a (new) genset. After years of reasonable service, I had to finally remove, last month, the old Northern-Lights 6.5Kw as it reached beyond economical repair and I don’t miss it a bit.

Just hope the good old Volvo Penta 100HP will survive until even better electric motors gets into the game and maybe even faster, new generations of batteries. I’m extremely happy with the recently added 400A LFO, it add a lot of convenience to the massive use of electricity on board, but it doesn’t matter how large the bank can grow, a decent genset will be needed in order to have an electric motor and still maintain the quality of life I’m looking at on board and minimise compromises.


----------



## SV Wind Waker (Jan 20, 2021)

What I like about the electric engine is the simplicity of the maintenance and the engine. I hate to have in my boat a big thing that I ignore 80% of what I should. Having say that I am going to a diesel workshop as soon as COVID is gone to fix that . Now I am following Sailing Uma. All good for people with no schedule, making some profits of the technology and promoting it, but it is not the case of all sailors. So, as for the choice of boat, it all depends on the specific program of each crew.


----------



## SV Wind Waker (Jan 20, 2021)

MikeOReilly said:


> I used a bladder-style for years. It was OK, but was awkward and hard to get any real pressure. About 10 years ago I got the idea to convert a garden sprayer into a portable shower. Have used it ever since.
> 
> The great thing about this setup is that you can pressurize it to whatever flow you like. I found a black one, so it heats up nicely in the sun. I extended the hose and changed the sprayer head to a small trigger-style nozzle of the type typically found in kitchen sinks. This gives excellent pressure that is finely controllable.
> 
> Mine is similar to this one:


We had a similar system in Florida. Still have it, but I must say here in the pacific northwest I am VERY happy to have hot water via the diesel engine


----------

