# Keel bolt replacement a deal breaker?



## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

Looking at a Beneteau 345 1986. There is some question about the keel bolts. Talked to a surveyor of said boat who had previously attempted to survey this boat. THe buyer walked away from purchase before surveyor completed survey. 

Is this a deal breaker? We are wondering per online instructions and Don Casey book etc etc if done one at a time--is it common to shear them off and then be stuck with a Pandora's box? Help?! 

Thanks, signed me who has walked away from 3 boats recently. Grrr


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

On Benetau's keel bolts are a recommended PM, I don't know the interval but I personally would be Leary of buying without documentation of this work being done on schedule. Most external Keels are lead with SS embeds, Bs are cast Iron with Steel bolts, an entirely different animal.


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

albrazzi said:


> On Benetau's keel bolts are a recommended PM, I don't know the interval but I personally would be Leary of buying without documentation of this work being done on schedule. Most external Keels are lead with SS embeds, Bs are cast Iron with Steel bolts, an entirely different animal.


I was under the impression that the iron ones are 'easier' to deal with?


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

what is the reason you think it needs new bolts? have you seen them? did the surveyor see them? is the bilge wet or dry?
The bolts on the Beneteau iron keels are steel on the older boats and SS on the newer ones. the are bolts installed from the top and not embedded into the keel. you can remove them one at a time and replace. there have been some that have sheared off due to corrosion above the iron. the iron keel can be removed and re bedded somewhat easier then a lead keel. the bolts if corroded are easier to replace then a corroded stud in a lead keel. if the bolts will not come out of the iron they can be cut off and drilled out and re threaded. if the threads are corroded or striped they can be repaired with a thread insert. A few of the keels have studs that are threaded into the iron and have nut inside the boat.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes, why do you think the keel bolts are shot? Or do you just equate Beneteau with keel bolt problems?

If so there's plenty of Swans for sale. 

Mark


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Call Beneteau, they are very good at customer service and that includes buyers of secondhand boats.

The Beneteau's usually do not have "keel bolts" in the conventional sense. No big J-bolts embedded in the keel. Instead, Beneteau (who are usually cast iron keels, but not always) have a large bolt tapped into the keel from on top, and their normal service procedure for this is to remove the old bolts, if needed, one at a time. Replacing each one with a new bolt before moving on to the next. Torquing them all, then of course retorquing afterwards.

Unless something has really rusted in place or the keel itself has decayed...this should just be a matter of using a suitably large wrench and penetrating oil. Regardless of the job itself, if the survey only finds that "its gonna cost you to get this done" then you and the seller can always sit down and put that into escrow. The broker (or an attorney, etc.) is given five or ten grand at closing, with the contract stating that in 30 or 60 days, the money is to be given out first, to pay the yard repair bills for the keel work, and then second, whatever is left goes to the seller.

That's routine business. The only question is how expensive the job might be, who wants to gamble, who wants to get an estimate, and whether the seller really knows what that job is going to cost.

I'm sure Beneteau, the local B dealers, and indy mechanics can all give you an idea about that. The surveyor might have some idea of the costs as well, or at least, how extensive the problem really is. Rust can be deceptive.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Or do you just equate Beneteau with keel bolt problems?


It's mostly on the Beneteau 393 :devil

You know that's going to show up now on an internet search, so it must be right :angel


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

hellosailor said:


> Call Beneteau, they are very good at customer service and that includes buyers of secondhand boats.
> 
> The Beneteau's usually do not have "keel bolts" in the conventional sense. No big J-bolts embedded in the keel. Instead, Beneteau (who are usually cast iron keels, but not always) have a large bolt tapped into the keel from on top, and their normal service procedure for this is to remove the old bolts, if needed, one at a time. Replacing each one with a new bolt before moving on to the next. Torquing them all, then of course retorquing afterwards.
> 
> ...


I hear ya. There has not been a survey yet. It's out of state for us and we managed to get a hold of a surveyor who previously "partially" surveyed it, and said they were rusty-or some such thing. Broker-for the seller- has also said the keel bolts likely need looking at or replacement. Locally, anecdotally, calling a nearby yard to me, guy 'guessed' it would be a $5500 job based on its saltwater located and 1986 model yr. because they would be a b***h to get out....


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think it's important to keep a certain perspective when shopping 30-40 year old boats.

Few if any will be in absolute prime condition - after all they were built some time ago and the upkeep and maintenance over that time is a highly variable thing. You can't expect such a boat to show like it just came off the factory floor.

Re the keel bolt issue, the surveyor should be able to give you an educated assessment of that particular boat's issues, obviously that's why you use them. A stud (or bolt)-in-iron situation can be the easiest one to deal with, assuming they come free and nothing 'breaks'. The $5K estimate would, I assume, involve dropping the keel - which may or may not be required in this case. Pulling an ordinary stud may require special tools esp if 'double nutting' won't do the job.

I think the First 345 is a pretty nice boat, worth digging a little deeper, I think.


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

Thanks, Faster. 
The boat is original owner who passed away and widow is selling. Soudsn like he maintained it well until near the end, maybe. IDK.


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

> Pulling an ordinary stud may require special tools esp if 'double nutting' won't do the job.
> 
> I think the First 345 is a pretty nice boat, worth digging a little deeper, I think.


Apparently it's my understanding that they are M20 by 70 steel bolts into the iron keel.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

nautidawg said:


> Apparently it's my understanding that they are M20 by 70 steel bolts into the iron keel.


If so, you'll hopefully have a good hex head to work with..


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

nautidawg said:


> I hear ya. There has not been a survey yet. It's out of state for us and we managed to get a hold of a surveyor who previously "partially" surveyed it, and said they were rusty-or some such thing. Broker-for the seller- has also said the keel bolts likely need looking at or replacement. Locally, anecdotally, calling a nearby yard to me, guy 'guessed' it would be a $5500 job based on its saltwater located and 1986 model yr. because they would be a b***h to get out....


Sorry, but your whole post is just a bunch of guesses. 
It's just crackers to dig a grave and miss out on your 4th boat in a row.

Why are you missing out on so many deals?
Is it for the same reason? You get put off by something and then drop the whole deal?

I read a remarkable essay by the owner of a boat building company that also has a brokerage. He said he had a client that for 15 years wanted, really wanted one of his boats. However every boat, every deal fell through because something wasn't good enough.
Finally the client said he was too old to buy a boat.

Is that going to be you?

You rely on a non-completed survey, you rely on a buyer who pulled out, you rely on some rust NOT in the keel but visible on the top surface of the bolt(s) in the bilge.
You rely on the price of a yard workers guess but don't even know the real price of the replacement bolts from Beneteau or non-Beneteau replacements.
You rely on not being able to replace them simply.

So you have talked yourself put of a well maintained boat.

Finally, It's 30 to 40 years old. In the next decade its going to need big $$$ to maintain it. Boats are not expensive tbey are HUGELY expensuve. $5,000 is nothing. If itz not the keel bolts s its could be the rigging. Ir the sails. Or the covers, engine, heat exchanger, exhaust, rewiring, aircon, refrigeration.

Each and every one could cost you $5k.

Every damn one of them.

I know. I KNOW. I had the rubber exhaust hose replaced. That's the bit from the water thingy to the back of the boat. I was away and wanted it done. It's just one (heavy) rubber hose threaded is difficult spots which would have left my blood on every bend. So I got the yard to replace it. $1000. 
$1,000 for 1 fricken hose!

But at least I own the boat, live on my 
dream, live my dream - currently in London.

Don't let yourself become the 15 year guy. If it's a good boat buy it. Don't let some other dude get it and laugh their way around the world on the Great deal they got.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

nautidawg said:


> I hear ya. There has not been a survey yet. It's out of state for us and we managed to get a hold of a surveyor who previously "partially" surveyed it, and said they were rusty-or some such thing. Broker-for the seller- has also said the keel bolts likely need looking at or replacement. Locally, anecdotally, calling a nearby yard to me, *guy 'guessed' it would be a $5500 job based on its saltwater located and 1986 model yr. because they would be a b***h to get out*....


Rubbish!

This Keel Bolt business with Beneteau yachts is so overblown I can hardly stand it. Firstly, do a search on Beneteau Keel Bolts and you will find several--in fact more than several--discussions of the matter on this forum and at the Cruisers Forum.

Beneteau uses, and in 1986 used, dacrotized high strength steel bolts to attach their keels. (High strength steel verses stainless because for a given size they are stronger than stainless.) Dacrotizing is akin to hot dip galvanizing but is a much better/more corrosion resistant ceramic coating. The last time I checked, BeneteauUSA had the M20x70 bolts available, albeit delivered from France, for $8.81 each or, in your case, about $149.77 for a full set. The matching flat washers--also dacrotized--add $84.49 to the tab. When originally installed, after being placed the bolts/washers were coated with a protective layer of epoxy resin such that, for the most part, most Bene Keel Bolts do not show much deterioration, even when exposed to water, other than surface rusting after so many years. Note that the volume of "rust" that develops as steel is oxidized (i.e. is "rusted") is about 600% the volume of the steel that has "rusted". Hence, the rust one can see bears little relationship to the actual deterioration of the underlying metal. In the case of the Bene keel bolts, there is a Technical Notice available from the Company that addresses their replacement which process is neither complicated nor difficult and can be done on a bolt-by-bolt basis while the yacht is in the water in most cases.

Of all the times I have seen/heard people worrying about replacing Beneteau keel bolts on these forums in the last 15+ years, I have yet to hear of a single case where the old bolts, even though their heads might have been rusted, did not turn out to unscrew fairly easily (keeping in mind that they are torqued to a average of 150 ft-lbs) and emerge clean and dry. At most, removing, preping and replacing all of the keel bolts, which is not likely necessary, would take one man one, or if he's a clod, one and one half days--i.e. 12 hours. If one chose to hire that out, and were paying yard labor rates--which is entirely unnecessary for any even marginally competent owner--that might be $1,200 for labor and another $248.00 for the bolts/washers. Frankly, however, if one is not up to the effort that job might take, I would question whether one should be considering yacht ownership what-so-ever.

Look up the other threads on the matter and see what actual information is already available on the Forum. Perhaps even corresponding with the original posters via private message. Or PM me with your email address and I will forward a copy of the technical notice to you.

FWIW...


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

Thanks all.

I had looked up and read all threads I could find on this subject-on several forums...

I asked this question to get information. Prior surveyor attempted to do a survey upon which buyer walked away as HE did not like what HE saw (rusty keel bolts, owner's clutter all over, headliners falling down, etc).

We have been in contact with Beneteau in boats we have looked at. They are helpful.

_*"It's just crackers to dig a grave and miss out on your 4th boat in a row."*_ MarkofSeaLife said. FTR, it was 2 boats not 4. And they fell thru for totally different reasons: boat #1 was due to a lying owner who represented the boat as immaculate and bristol, didnt' want a survey. I demanded one, got one and survey revealed no elec to work, wet boat, and a list too long to mention....So I walked away. Boat #2, the owner overvalued his boat and gave his final counter offer that was $10K over what we were willing to pay....he also tried to leverage the foreign value of his dollar against ours. Boat #3 is under contract, we fully expect to prob replace/check etc keel bolts, replace lines, as well as rigging. Plus interior work and cosmetic stuff. This boat is out of state or I would have already had a surveyor on it. However, I must await return calls and schedule she be put on short haul-boat has not been out of the saltwater for 3 yrs. So you see there are LOTS of questions but the most concerning (to us at this juncture) is the bolts notion. Never mind not having even gotten a look at the keel yet!


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

Forgot to mention....yes we already knew that the bolts are about 16 bucks each.


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

Document sent from Beneteau...oops. Tried to attach doc but it would not allow a pdf....


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"because they would be a b***h to get out.... "
To paraphrase Jaws: We're gonna need a bigger hammer.

It could make a simple solution to contact the seller (through their broker) and let them know up front, this is a potential issue. Since the local yard estiguesses it could be $5500, maybe they'd be willing to move forward on everything else with the caveat of putting that much into an escrow account, in case the bolts really do need to be replaced. If the bolts spin off...you both win. If the bolts need explosives...OK, the seller gets less but then again, they've made a fair (and quick) sale, and you don't get burnt either.

If the person who goes to examine the bolts uses a can of WD40 as a penetrant? Find a new bolt whisperer.(G)


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

I did upload a Beneteau bolts document sent to me yesterday converted into a png file (can't do pdf on here) in another thread....in case anyone's interested.


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## nautidawg (Oct 1, 2017)

That thread is here (sorry folks still trying to figure out how to circumnavigate this forum) 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/301969-beneteau-rusty-keel-bolt-file.html


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