# Do you have to be wealthy to own a sailing yacht?



## Woodfinatic (Jan 2, 2014)

Ran across a thread that had a comment in it that somewhat gave off the idea that to be a successful sailor and sailing yacht owner you needed to have an excess of money. I am 15 years old with no job and I have a San Juan 23. Am I considered a sailor or yachtsman? I usually don't have money to pay for specific parts or service on my boat,but I put time,creativity,and the little money I do have into my boat to make it usable and worth my time. So my question is, Do you have to be wealthy to own and sail a sailing yacht and be a successful sailor?


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## rnixon (May 7, 2013)

Before buying, yes. After, probably not!

Seriously, for a small boat, no. Larger boats start to get very expensive, very quickly. As you've done, you can make your money stretch further, but parts need replacing from time to time. They can be expensive, particularly on big boats.

If you do most of the maintenance yourself, have a seaworthy boat, and can sail, then you rate as a successful sailor in my book. I take my hat off to anyone that manages to maximise their enjoyment with little money.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

rnixon said:


> Before buying, yes. After, probably not!
> 
> Seriously, for a small boat, no. Larger boats start to get very expensive, very quickly. As you've done, you can make your money stretch further, but parts need replacing from time to time. They can be expensive, particularly on big boats.
> 
> If you do most of the maintenance yourself, have a seaworthy boat, and can sail, then you rate as a successful sailor in my book. I take my hat off to anyone that manages to maximise their enjoyment with little money.


I think you have it backwards you need to be wealthy to own a yacht but not to buy one


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

No, not to own one, used ones are downright cheap. Yes, if you want to own one and keep it in good condition over time.

And double yes if you want to have a place to keep her, afloat. Waterfront property has appreciated, boats largely haven't.

Also, when is a "boat" a "yacht"? I've lived around both, and still don't know..


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

If you are in a position to own, and maintain a boat for only your leisure enjoyment. You also have a computer and can post on the internet then I would say you are pretty wealthy. That would put you ahead of at least 3.5 billion people give or take a few hundred million. It is all relative. I know many people with nice cars, houses, boats and other toys who make large salaries but have a negative net worth and live check to check. I know others who make meager salaries but are frugal have a large net worth and adequate financial cushion. So a lot depends on who you compare yourself with, what you value, and how you define wealth.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Depends on a lot of things.

What do you call "wealthy"?

How big a boat are we talking about?

Where will it be kept? Around here the annual moorage can get very close to the purchase price for a fairly typical used boat under 35'. Certainly will match it within 2 or 3 years.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> So a lot depends on who you compare yourself with


Why get caught up in that? OP has a boat to be proud of. Was the Skipper a sailor and Thurston Howell III a yachtsman?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

It sure helps!


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

I like your question am I a sailor or a yachtsman ? Whatever you want . I myself would prefer sailor . There is a book that was written for you , It will answer that question for you . Please read it . Mark .
The Sailor's Sketchbook - Ideas and projects for the yachtsman's rainy days: Bingham: 9780915160556: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NVvDf%[email protected]@[email protected]@51NVvDf%2B8uL


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

SloopJonB said:


> Depends on a lot of things.
> 
> *What do you call "wealthy"?*
> 
> ...


I think this is such a relative term, in a lot of the third world countries that posters here would sail into, all boat owners would be considered 'wealthy.'


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

Buying a boat is one thing, affording it is another.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

There is a thread about paying someone to do something for you or doing it yourself (http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/188497-i-paid-dude-i-liked.html)

Which highlights the fact you can have a boat that is financed by sweat and ingenuity. I've watched this video (



) a couple times and it is interesting how without much money they were yachters....


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## backpacker6794 (Feb 24, 2015)

LOL ! I own 5... a Southcoast 22..luger 26 and 28..a McGregor 26 and a Glen L 17..... and were just work for the state of N C.... Not rich.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Having to ask tells me you're on the curb and likely to stay there. I wanted a sail boat so picked and recycled.With scrounge and upcycle built a 17 meter ketch for 12 grand , lived aboard for 40 years, chartered some of that, Made about half a mil from tourists and sold for enough to make me smile. Developing some skills probably had a lot to do with it but wealthy???. Standing on your wallet don't impress me much


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

owning one is easy maintaining one is what costs the big coin and if you dont maintain them they loose value fast.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Of course you need to be wealthy to own a boat.

The OP is a 15 year old unemployed kid with a 23 foot boat. Of COURSE he would find it difficult to afford one damn thing on that boat. With no money coming in he would find only a 'wealthy' person could afford a 10 foot piece of string he vitally needs.

Its the same with a 50 year old millionaire... He has a much larger boat, more advanced systems, but still boats PINCH the pockek. It hurts millionaires when they blow a spinnaker, replace an engine, install a new watermaker.

Boats are expensive to everyone who buys one... Unless a millionaire buys a 23 foot Jan Whatever.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

titustiger27 said:


> .....I've watched this video (
> 
> 
> 
> ) a couple times and it is interesting how without much money they were yachters....


You didn't know that Moxie is a very successful computer security consultant (read semi-legit hacker) and that vid is predominantly a fraud? Personally, I don't believe they actually stole the things they claimed, nor squatted as they claimed, but rather arranged it all to tease out the anarchist in some. It's been a while, but I recall a $500 EPIRB on the bulkhead down below, which had no explanation, among all the scrap. There were many other incongruities.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Sailor. No.

Own a boat. No.

Own a yacht. Yes. Isn't that how each person defines "yacht?" If they feel they are wealthy (or that it matters to them if they are) they call it a yacht.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Just to dock it.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> You didn't know that Moxie is a very successful computer security consultant (read semi-legit hacker) and that vid is predominantly a fraud? Personally, I don't believe they actually stole the things they claimed, nor squatted as they claimed, but rather arranged it all to tease out the anarchist in some. It's been a while, but I recall a $500 EPIRB on the bulkhead down below, which had no explanation, among all the scrap. There were many other incongruities.


had me fooled


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

The answer is no, you not only don't need to be wealthy to own a yacht, but if you start wealthy, and you buy a nice yacht, you won't be wealthy any more.

QED. It's a self correcting equation


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

If your goal is to buy a brand new boat you will need a some $$$. If your goal is to just get out buy a used boat and start sailing. Then with a little extra work and determination you could easily reach that goal like this young fellow did:


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Woodfinatic said:


> I am 15 years old with no job and I have a San Juan 23. Am I considered a sailor or yachtsman? I usually don't have money to pay for specific parts or service on my boat,but I put time,creativity,and the little money I do have into my boat to make it usable and worth my time. So my question is, Do you have to be wealthy to own and sail a sailing yacht and be a successful sailor?


We have sailing friends from the UK and they often call themselves 'yachtsmen'. In their case, it's a term of an accomplished all around sailor(not just say, a racer). Their term, 'yachtsmen', is not about the cost or size of the boat the yachtsmen sails.

To be a successful sailor in my book, all you have to do is acquire a passion to sail. Again, it's not about the boat. You own a great boat!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

titustiger27 said:


> had me fooled


You're not alone. He engendered a real following, albeit, fraudulently. The other controversial issue about that documentary, is the glorification of stealing, rule breaking and invading the privacy of others. It wasn't just sailing on a shoestring.

He was also the head of computer security for Twitter, after he sold his company to them for millions. The vid title suggests it was filmed prior to this sale. Although, it was posted to youtube afterwards, so who knows if the declared timeline is factual either.

I think it was the ultimate troll.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

As is so often the case, the answer is "it depends."

It depends on your definition of "wealthy." Compared to a whole lot of the people on this planet, the fact that we can afford time and equipment to participate in a forum like this one is proof positive that we are all extravagantly wealthy. To those people, yes, you have to be almost ridiculously wealthy to own a sailing yacht.

Then again, there are a whole lot of people out there who think nothing of dropping thousands of dollars on a pair of shoes, or a handbag. To those people, no, even some very "poor" people own sailing yachts.

So, without a universally accepted definition of "wealthy" (and you'll never get that), the question is an exercise in semantic futility.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

You don't need to be wealthy but you do need choices. I feel the most affordable way to own a decent boat is to live on it. That would be a choice, giving up the convenience of being land based with power and water on tap, having your car parked at your door and if the weather turns nasty well you just close the window. If your chosen path is to put everything into your boat, it can be very affordable, as long as you don't mind filling water tanks, walking the doc with all your grocery in a cart, unloading the cart taking the cart back to the car park for the next person then walking back to the boat to put your groceries away, that is if you don't get waylaid by a friend on his boat for a chat and a couple of drinks...... living on a boat in a marina is a joy but cruising is more joyous.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I pity the fool who calls my boat a 'yacht', and me a 'yachtsman'.


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

SimonV said:


> You don't need to be wealthy but you do need choices. I feel the most affordable way to own a decent boat is to live on it. That would be a choice, giving up the convenience of being land based with power and water on tap, having your car parked at your door and if the weather turns nasty well you just close the window. If your chosen path is to put everything into your boat, it can be very affordable, as long as you don't mind filling water tanks, walking the doc with all your grocery in a cart, unloading the cart taking the cart back to the car park for the next person then walking back to the boat to put your groceries away, that is if you don't get waylaid by a friend on his boat for a chat and a couple of drinks...... living on a boat in a marina is a joy but cruising is more joyous.


Yeah. Living on the boat makes it a lot more affordable, since the boat isn't this extra 'thing' that sucks in money, but your house and home as well.

At least, thats what I tell myself


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I voted yes. Hard to vote no when I had $24k to toss at basically a hobby.

But we really probably need to define "wealthy"


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

Depends on what you call a "yacht". Here in N. FL, a yacht is an oyster boat carrying a six pack of beer. However, the most accomplished sailors I have known have been poor and had old small boats. You can do a lot with the San Juan if you keep everything very simple. Even with the cheapest possible gear, that boat can be sailed better than you can sail it. You can buy gear at flea markets or on e-bay. For many years I sailed my ancient S2 with no more nav gear than a compass, paper charts and a "knot stik" (a thing that you pull behind to give you your speed) and you can get by with even less (you gotta have the compass).
Get rid of all the complicated stuff like plumbing and electrical systems except for the minimum nav lights. Use old sails and when they wear out buy used sails or re-cut the old ones. You can even make very good sails from Polytarp. A clean small boat with well thought out very simple gear is a much better boat than a big one with expensive gear.
MOST EXPENSIVE BOATS NEVER GO ANYWHERE. The harsh reality is that the owners are so busy making payments they can't afford to go cruising. With that San Juan, you can do more than 99% of the big expensive boats. For sailors, it seems to be a case of "Stay poor to do more".


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

Best sailor I ever knew was a homeless guy who cobbled together $500 to buy an old trashed out Venture 21. This guy was missing an ear, face covered with scars, missing half his hand and his dog had been run over so its jaw was at nearly right angles to his muzzle, they were a real pair. He sailed that little Venture all over the N. Gulf coast from Carrabelle all the way over to New Orleans and back visiting every place possible. He stocked his pantry from dumpsters behind grocery stores.
He anchored in weird out of the way places that cost him nothing. You gotta admire ppl like that.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

To the OP: In my experience, yes. 

But there is more to wealth than money.

I did not figure this out until I was in my fifties. Had I known it at your age life would have been much more enjoyable. Having made the correction, I must say, life is grand and I am wealthy beyond measure living the life I have always dreamed of.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

I don't think you need to be $$$Cash$$$ wealthy, but if it is cash you lack then you need to be frugal and mechanically inclined to be able to own and maintain a proper sailing vessel!


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

vega1860 said:


> To the OP: In my experience, yes.
> 
> But there is more to wealth than money.
> 
> I did not figure this out until I was in my fifties. Had I know it at your age life would have been much more enjoyable. Having made the correction, I must say, life is grand and I am wealthy beyond measure living the life I have always dreamed of.


Thanks for taking us along the way via Youtube and the webpage!


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

mbianka said:


> If your goal is to buy a brand new boat you will need a some $$$. If your goal is to just get out buy a used boat and start sailing. Then with a little extra work and determination you could easily reach that goal like this young fellow did:


The American dream


Work 60 hours a week at crappy jobs for a year or less
Sell everything by a boat
Make videos where the main thing is your fat head
Don't worry about train of thought, just edit everything together
Make sure there are some hipster music in the back ground

30K hits later, GoPro is richer


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

I didn't read the whole thread but I would say if you call it a "yacht" you are rich. If you call it a big ass boat you are just a sailor


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

This question was settled long ago. The United States Yacht Racing Union (USRYU) changed its name to United States Sailing Association (USSA) because they were convinced that "yachting" conveys a need for wealth and class barriers and the kind of repugnant associations that would discourage people from joining the sport.

That's it, the people who regulate the sport in the US (at the Olympic and national level) saying "Yacht" is a dirty word.

Aside from that, I would argue that IF you have enough spare time to spend it on a recreational boat, and IF you have enough money to spend it on a recreational boat, and IF you can afford to live someplace and yet have another "place" for fun, you've got so much wealth of so many kinds, that you're RICH. 

Maybe not compared to the guy with the 250' yacht with two choppers on board, but in global terms? Yeah, suck it up, you're WEALTHY.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Sometimes people just need to put labels on others so they can feel secure in their position. Example, you see a shabby man with a bag of empties at the liquor store for a refund and he's a bum. Same guy, walking up from his beached dingy is eccentric. At least no one ever label me a yachty just because I smelled as sweet.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

titustiger27 said:


> The American dream
> 
> 
> Work 60 hours a week at crappy jobs for a year or less
> ...


That's a little harsh. There are lot's of American Dreams people have. I'm not so sure this is this guys "American Dream". Just something he wants to do right now. He sat down made a plan, researched some boats figured out the costs and worked hard to make his plan come to fruition. He then looked at several boats and found one that looked good to him and his budget. He then hired a surveyor to make sure. He did it the right way and is a good role model for others of any age. I also like that he's not covering up his mistakes as they head south. I also like that he's also using charts in addition to the Chartplotter. Good to see some young folks not just relying on electronic screens these days.

As for the video's he's making them the way he wants. Which may appeal to other young people though may not be your tastes. But, he's not holding a gun to anybody's head to make people watch them. I kind of like them. The shots of his cute girlfriend also balance out his selfie dialogs. Though personally I would have left the little rat/mop dog behind.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Capt Len said:


> Sometimes people just need to put labels on others so they can feel secure in their position.


Boy, ain't THAT the truth!


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## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

"Do you have to be wealthy to be a sailor?"

Wealthy.... hmmm, small boat, big boat, no boat, meh, the only real question is are you happy in your life.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

mbianka said:


> That's a little harsh. There are lot's of American Dreams people have. I'm not so sure this is this guys "American Dream". Just something he wants to do right now. He sat down made a plan, researched some boats figured out the costs and worked hard to make his plan come to fruition. He then looked at several boats and found one that looked good to him and his budget. He then hired a surveyor to make sure. He did it the right way and is a good role model for others of any age. I also like that he's not covering up his mistakes as they head south. I also like that he's also using charts in addition to the Chartplotter. Good to see some young folks not just relying on electronic screens these days.
> 
> As for the video's he's making them the way he wants. Which may appeal to other young people though may not be your tastes. But, he's not holding a gun to anybody's head to make people watch them. I kind of like them. The shots of his cute girlfriend also balance out his selfie dialogs. Though personally I would have left the little rat/mop dog behind.


I thought about putting a disclaimer on the post.
Yes he has the right to live his life the way he does (along with his companion)

But if you look at a lot of 'memoir videos' on youtube they do follow this mode.

And I would ask, does every story have to be told with a camera at arm's length?


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## Kimmi (Feb 17, 2015)

These type of videos are very popular with the 20-something set today. 
I am glad that they got the little yorkie a doggy life vest eventually.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

The videos --- now that I have watched what they have available.. the thing I like about it is they make mistakes and admit it and you really kind of learn about things on their travels

The learning isn't always pointed out directly.. but after a while you see they are wearing better (Gore-Tex I think) jackets and the dog has a life vest.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Dock walker: "Are you wealthy?"

Boat owner: "I was until I bought this damned boat!"


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

Don't get me started! When you look at many posts you'd say that the wealthy would think so. "Just buy a new XB127A with AIS, GPS and many other letters and numbers. Only about $1500". And I respond,
"Dude, look at the size of the boat before you offer advice!" Many trailer sailors and small keelboat owners have limited resources but still a heart for sailing and cruising. Quite frankly, they sacrifice more for their love than the guy with a 40 footer and deep pockets.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

titustiger27 said:


> I thought about putting a disclaimer on the post.
> Yes he has the right to live his life the way he does (along with his companion)
> But if you look at a lot of 'memoir videos' on youtube they do follow this mode.
> And I would ask, does every story have to be told with a camera at arm's length?


Well, they do call it "You Tube". You make a fair point though. I think the shooting style came about from those survival "reality" shows from the past few years. Like Man vs Nature and others. Size and the costs of cameras have come down to the point of being very affordable. I was reading Bernard Moitessier's The Long Way about his participation in the 1968 Round the World race. He was given a film camera that was limited to four minutes per reel. The camera was pretty bulky too and there was no sound. Advances in the technology have made it practical for one to capture and share ones experience much like people use to do with 8mm film years ago. At least today one is not held captive in someones living room as it was when projectors and screens needed to be setup to view these endeavors.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Camera work... I think that is why I (guy in his 50's) find it a little lazy to hold up a few once GoPro in front of your face and say: a) here is what we are doing or b) here is what we did.

I think I would more often enjoy the camera pointing the other way, showing what has or is happening. 

Certainly a product of the times.. I would guess if you looked at most 8mm films, few ere held up at arms length shooting one's self.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Kimmi said:


> These type of videos are very popular with the 20-something set today.
> I am glad that they got the little yorkie a doggy life vest eventually.


Personally I look at the dog and think it is just one more added unnecessary expense when cruising. Plus it's another thing to worry about tripping over, stepping on etc... IMO it's like having an extra crew on board that eats your provisions and then does not even help out when docking. But, that's just me.


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## UsCa (Jun 8, 2016)

I Think this Young Boy has Lots of Wealth His Just having a Sailboat as his age Is Awesome. If he can own a Boat at his age and Take care of it with no Job. Is a Great Thing with his Value of asking the question do you have to be rich to own a Yacht. This young Man may be the Richest Kid of all his friends when he Grows up. I would gather to bet that when he is 30 he will be a yacht owner and have a Truly Great Boat. He is started in the right direction. He is asking all the right Questions and gaining the knowledge on how to be a successful Yacht owner. I believe that he will be someday, he will work hard and will gain all the know how on how to maintain a Great Boat. I am going to Follow this young Lad and watch him as I see a Young Boy with the Heart of a Great Sailor. That will from following these Forums gain everything we wish that we would have done before we shelled out the 200,000 for our boats. He's got it Right start Small and work your way up. Granted I only can wish I was wealthy but wealthy in the Heart means more to me than the Money. I only Paid 2500 for mine when I first got it but in the years I have owned it I would say now that I have spent a great deal of money on it for a 40 year old boat it is exactly where I want it to be. the Only Thing that does cost money is to Park it. That best part is Having Fun on it watching my friend who all own Power Boats spend upwards of 2000 dollars on fuel on the same trip I spend 10 for they get their a lot faster than me but in the Long Run I'm the Wealthy one and their the Poor Yacht owners. we both spend the same on Moorage and Pretty much the same to maintain each of ours boats But the Wealth is in The Boat you Own This Young boy making the decision to own a Sailboat he can Sail it for almost Nothing Now that Makes this Boy wealthy he wont have to ever hardly have to worry about the high cost of Fuel Way To Go Young Man I do Admire You and your Wisdom I wish you Many of Great Times out on your Sailboat Have Fun and Enjoy every minute you are on it. And Most of all Remember Safety First always wear your Life vest and if in heavy water always wear a harness to a Jack Line so at least if you fall out you will have Protection. Up Here the Water is extremely Cold I would never ever want to fall in with out a way to get back onboard. Think Safety and Good Sailing


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## FloridaBoy (May 4, 2014)

From Merriam Webster 

Full Definition of yacht 

1

: any of various recreational watercraft: as

a : a sailboat used for racing

b : a large usually motor-driven craft used for pleasure cruising 


Full Definition of yachtsman 

1

: a person who owns or sails a yacht



Full Definition of sailor 

1
1
a : one that sails; especially : mariner

b (1) : a member of a ship's crew (2) : seaman 2b

2
2
: a traveler by water

3
3
: a stiff straw hat with a low flat crown and straight circular brim



Full Definition of wealthy 


wealthier

wealthiest

1
1
: having wealth : very affluent

2
2
: characterized by abundance

I will have to agree with MarkofSealife "It helps" Kevin


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

It's all in your perspective. I come from working people. We all had (and have) boats. Some people I know have a lot of money and have boats. Some have very little money - and also have boats. I'm thinking about one person. Works as a waiter, not what I'd call wealthy, but he lives on a 36' boat, and sails it all over San Francisco Bay. He doesn't have a lot of money, but what he does have is a committment to sailing; he loves it. He has a lovely boat. If you have less money, you have to have more commitment - but then again, wealthy people benifit from commitment too! Wealthy or not wealthy, there is a place for you in the sailing community. If you love sailing, you'll find a way.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

I guess not. Here's our son launching his new(to him), $1 sailboat.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Im changing my opinion to:

Everyone who owns a boat is wealthy.

People spend a fair percentage of the wages, assets to own a boat.
The richer you are the bigger the boat.
When the maintenance bill hits the deck both poor and rich people feel the pinch.

Boats always cost a lot no matter if you have a 30 footer when you earn $30,000 or a 50 footer when you earn $100,000 both people are wealthy to afford it.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

Its no worse than owning a car or having a child. 

You buy the $30K car,$350 a month on the car loan and then spend $300 a month on gas,and $1000-$2000 OR MORE ON REPAIRS after it goes out of warranty.

Its the same.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

TomMaine said:


> I guess not. Here's our son launching his new(to him), $1 sailboat.


He's planning on putting up the mast while its in the water? That doesn't seem to be a lot of fun.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I owned a yacht because I wasn't wealthy. Scrounged the lumber from demos.Paid moorage with bottle refund and scrap metal. As project(life's raison d'etre) proceeded ,grossed an annual of an easy 6 figs taking dreamers sailing. Boat is still doing it which is more than I can say for myself,which is why I might add that you shouldn't wait too long


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Zarathu said:


> He's planning on putting up the mast while its in the water? That doesn't seem to be a lot of fun.


They nearly all get stepped in the water in our harbor. Boats come in over the road - and under the wires.

This stepping will be a gin pole on deck, adventure.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

TomMaine said:


> They nearly all get stepped in the water in our harbor. Boats come in over the road - and under the wires.
> 
> This stepping will be a gin pole on deck, adventure.


If I had to do that, I would connect an electric winch to it. I have to do the gin pole thing, but the wife pulls it up on land. And of course with a roller furling jib, we have to use another line since the forestay is not available.

I guess you win some lose some. You have a dock next to the ramp. The easiest ramp in Bar Harbor is at the beach at Hadley Point(you've probably been there). Nice 2+/- hour on high tide ramp, but no dock, just open beach.

So no wires or trees anywhere near launch.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

It's all semantics. What does the word "wealthy" mean?

To a person living in a tar-paper shack, scraping and begging for enough food to stay alive, anyone with a computer and internet access (in other words, every last person reading this), and certainly anyone who can afford to own a boat, is fabulously wealthy. On the other hand, God only knows how Muhammad bin Nayef, crown prince of Saudi Arabia, defines "wealthy." I certainly don't. He probably thinks anyone who doesn't own at least one Rolls Royce is desperately poor.

So it's all a matter of your perspective, and a matter of how you define "wealthy." I don't really consider myself to be wealthy, but I know that from the perspective of the majority of the people in this world, anyone who can afford to own ANYTHING that they use for recreational purposes is "wealthy."


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

To own a previously owned sailboat, you need some disposable income (not a lot, but definitely some), and enough spare time to do the maintenance and enjoy the boat. That fits the classic definition of "middle class," which is unfortunately disappearing in the US. Increasingly, people with disposable income and spare time are considered wealthy. They used to be considered just ordinary.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Im changing my opinion to:
> 
> Everyone who owns a boat is wealthy.
> 
> ...


My boat that I use on the weekends for 6 months a year has cost me the same as what it costs me to have my house for 12 months a year. Not exactly a "poor man's" toy!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

_How do you make a small fortune with boat ownership? Start with a large fortune . _

I guess the answer is yes, you have to be wealthy, although wealth is not only measured in dollars. It can be measured in time, skills and patience.

The other factor I wonder about is how the yacht is used. If it's simply an extra toy, then sure it's going to require a fair bit of wealth. But if the boat is also your home, then the costs are what it costs to live.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

denverd0n said:


> On the other hand, God only knows how Muhammad bin Nayef, crown prince of Saudi Arabia, defines "wealthy." I certainly don't.


*Real Wealth is simple to determine.​*
If you are really wealthy, then you have to have bodyguards where ever you go, and your children and wife have to have body guards to prevent attacks and to prevent abductions caused by people who want to hold you or your family for ransom.

This is the sign of real wealth. Its a curse.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Zarathu said:


> *Real Wealth is simple to determine.​*
> If you are really wealthy, then you have to have bodyguards where ever you go, and your children and wife have to have body guards to prevent attacks and to prevent abductions caused by people who want to hold you or your family for ransom.
> 
> This is the sign of real wealth. Its a curse.


We have the same problem on our 37' yacht in SE Asia...:eek


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

If you have real wealth you need to live in a place where there are quite a lot of 1%ers, and in a place where there is the availability of quick and substantial police response. If you are a 1%er living with people who are very poor, you are in very very serious danger, unless you can employ a a small army to protect you.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

VF84Sluggo said:


> Buying a boat is one thing, affording it is another.


Boats are like having children if you wait to afford it before doing it you will never get to it.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Zarathu said:


> If you have real wealth you need to live in a place where there are quite a lot of 1%ers, and in a place where there is the availability of quick and substantial police response. If you are a 1%er living with people who are very poor, you are in very very serious danger, unless you can employ a a small army to protect you.


Dude, you are swallowing too much of the Fox news kool aid.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

So far have experienced sailing as one of those activities where there are two crowds. Seen the same thing with fishing, motorcycles climbing and biking. Those who just love the activity. Those who live in the eyes of others so set goals to achieve certain recognized milestones and particular things to have.

The second group are inauthentic totally missing the point and joy of the activity always needing newer, bigger and better or bitter and resentful they can't have them. The first could give a rats behind about those things but are clear eyed that to do what they want to do they need to figure out how how to do it. Maybe it's buying a boat from someone who's upside down or needs extensive refitting. Maybe it's building a boat that doesn't have other people's troubles as its history. But they know the ocean doesn't care who you were on land it just cares what you brought to the game. Just like the fish didn't care if it was caught with a reddington or orvis set up. Or the ride was done on Al or CF. or what name is on you shirt. Taking a marginal vessel on passage is hubris. Saying I have a such and such BWB so I'm a great sailor is equal nonsense. You don't cast with good presentation and have tied good knots you don't catch the fish.

One of the great things about all the above mentioned activities is it becomes immediately clear who is in which group. 
To the OP. Stay away from yachties unless you're working or crewing for them. Then it gives a great education about what's available and the opportunity of some great sailing on great boats. Have a dream work toward it. Don't be ashamed of who you are only of what you do if you act badly. Personally I'm not ashamed of starting with small boats and restoring them to be able to get the next boat. Nor of working hard to have the resources. Nor of the times when I did more ocean sailing on other people's boats then my own. Nor of having to have the delayed gratification of finally being able to actuate my initial dream. Remember there's always some one who is a better sailor then you. Has a nicer boat. Has more experience. Better repair, navigation, sail setting skills. What ever!! But that that stuff only matters as an opportunity to learn something new and useful. It should never impact your enjoyment or growth. 

Prior posts speak to wealth. Being buried with your money doesn't make death more enjoyable. Having a life well lived makes it less onerous. Just go sailing. We are all equal in our enjoyment of that activity.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Many have more expensive boats than mine. A few have 'nicer' ones that I'm mildly envious of. You certainly need some disposable income to be involved, but you don't have to be "rich".


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

All of my income is now disposable - I'm not leavin a dime to the kids! 

If I were not able to do the maintenance and repairs on my boat, I couldn't afford to own it. It's that simple. Now that I'm retired, I find that mother nature is pissed at me for retiring. Most summers don't have rain three days a week, but since I retired, that's exactly what is happening. I plan a trip, check the weather and it seems to suck. It's either high winds or no winds, plus thundershowers. I've been caught in four powerful storms already this year, and the season just got underway a month ago. 

Fortunately, I made hundreds of dollars as a musician/singer/entertainer, therefore I was able to make enough to purchase an old sailboat and retire. I'm not rich by any means, but damned, I sure have a lot of fun.   

Gary


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

aeventyr60 said:


> Dude, you are swallowing too much of the Fox news kool aid.


I don't watch the news. What is Fox News Kool Aide?

Ever been to Bar Harbor, Maine? Martha Stewart, the Rockefellers, the Craftsman Tool Magnate, and many many other billionaires live here at least part of the year.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

outbound said:


> .
> 5Big 5
> The second group are inauthentdic totally missing the point and joy of the activity always needing newer, bigger aond better or bitter and resentful they can't have them.


Crap-a-lotty. I understand where you are coming from but I just don't agree.
I just bought a brand new bicycle for my 3 months in NYC then I will sell it. Most would just buy a junker. Bt ut I can afford a new one. It's better, smoother, cooler... yes, cooler, shiny, new...

Rich people can buyy a new Boaty, and bigger Boaty... or if they are being 'mountaineers' they can do that in some exotic country instead of the cliff behind the rubbish dump at home.

Who cares where/how folks spend their money? I go to the gym in my dirty old shorts and ripped T-Shirt (not a ripped body!) where others go is special Nike leotards. Does it really matter a damn?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Mark you miss my point. Interesting as I took a lot of crapola having a boat built for me awhile back. 
Got bad legs. Doc said exercise them. Grandson loves to ride his bike. Went to the bike store. Came home with a specialized hard rock. Could have gone less or more expensive. Have an old Miele that would serve. Wanted to at least keep the kid in sight so blew the bucks . And your right a suspension on a bike woo hoo. 
Point is I'm fascinated by sailboats but at the end of the day would still be fascinated by all sailboats regardless of personal resources, ownership or credentials. I love old wooden crescent and star yawls, Rapido 60s, anything done right. 
Sure I try to keep Uptodate reading, sailing (whenever possible) and chatting about the latest and greatest. Even get some of the must haves when budget allows. But just love sailing and sailboats.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Zarathu said:


> Its no worse than owning a car or having a child.
> 
> You buy the $30K car,$350 a month on the car loan and then spend $300 a month on gas,and $1000-$2000 OR MORE ON REPAIRS after it goes out of warranty.
> 
> Its the same.


but owning a child is a choice

boats not so much

*plus* if my boat sank in the middle of Upper Saranac Lake.. it's value is such that I would quickly start swimming to shore... I would have to give some thought to it, if it was a child.

:2 boat:


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Hey, if you're on the water, does it matter how much your boat cost? Or how new, or what design? As long as it's seaworthy, you're seaworthy and you don't broadside anyone, I could care less what you sail. Just as I don't look down on you, don't on me, and all will be good. But I'll also call you out if you start talking superiority of what you value, because it's just what you value, not what everyone does or should.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I only care that no matter how expensive your boat is that you put your lines away when you leave SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO THE DAM THINGS BANG TILL I CAN NOT TAKE IT ANYMORE AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Other than that all is good.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> I only care that no matter how expensive your boat is that you put your lines away when you leave SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO THE DAM THINGS BANG TILL I CAN NOT TAKE IT ANYMORE AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Other than that all is good.


_SOMEWHERE USA - A sailor and his parrot were found hanging from the lines on his boat yesterday in an incident which have local authorities puzzled.

Long-time sailor and neighbouring boat owner Don190 was uncertain how such a thing could have happened. But he was heard to mutter something about, "having to listen to the damn things banging till I can not take it anymore."

When asked to elaborate, Don190 offered a small, twitching smile._


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

If you can hear my halyards, you're anchored too damn close to my boat.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

seaner97 said:


> If you can hear my halyards, you're anchored too damn close to my boat.


Well it depends on how far away that is now doesn't it? But if I can hear the banging while down below over the wind and radio then it is time for you to join that parrot as a line bumper.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Perhaps they are rigged that way purposefully, similar to the ultrasonic vermin deterrents people have in their basements.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

LOL bought the boat then couldn't afford a couple bungees to tame the halyard slap!


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Tanski said:


> LOL bought the boat then couldn't afford a couple bungees to tame the halyard slap!


I, personally, love that sound. Reminds me of when I was 10 and falling asleep on rainy, windy nights on our poptop C22. Tame them as we tried (my dad was like Don and they drove him nuts), there was always some slap, and not a hell of alot of noise insulation through the canvas. But I've been on my current boat in 20 knots at anchor and I can hear them below, but certainly couldn't as soon as I was 5 feet away in a dinghy, bungeed or not. There is a guy who leaves his bell rigged occasionally and I can hear that from shore on quiet days when the swell or current are moving the field, but honestly, never heard anyone else's halyards slap unless I was too close or in a slip, which I consider too close.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

seaner97 said:


> Tame them as we tried (my dad was like Don and they drove him nuts), there was always some slap, and not a hell of alot of noise insulation through the canvas. But I've been on my current boat in 20 knots at anchor and I can hear them below, but certainly couldn't as soon as I was 5 feet away in a dinghy, bungeed or not.


I don't expect NO sound. I expect that on my mooring I don't listen to lines BANGING from 100' away over the wind when I'm down BELOW on my boat.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

seaner97 said:


> Perhaps they are rigged that way purposefully, similar to the ultrasonic vermin deterrents people have in their basements.


Doesn't work, attracted me like the Piped Piper calling my brothers.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Don0190 said:


> I don't expect NO sound. I expect that on my mooring I don't listen to lines BANGING from 100' away over the wind when I'm down BELOW on my boat.


That does seem excessive- are you sure they didn't have something break loose? Happens to even the conscientious.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> I don't expect NO sound. I expect that on my mooring I don't listen to lines BANGING from 100' away over the wind when I'm down BELOW on my boat.


This is one of times that I agree with Don. If I have to raise my voice in my own cockpit b/c of some banging halyard (or blasting music or screaming windmill or roaring generator/engine) then that noise is too much. You like banging halyards? Fine. Make a recording and listen to it on your iPod with earphones.

Yes, we all have to live with other people's sounds. That OK. But there is no reason to have a halyards slapping with such force that they interfere with conversation 100' away. I've always had fully external halyards, and I am able to silence all of them with minimal effort.


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## Tj Jack (Apr 5, 2016)

Wealthy is a measurement against others. I would say that anyone, including the OP, who owns a boat, is wealthy, no matter how much money they have. Many people don't have food. Surely someone who owns a boat is more wealthy than someone who doesn't have food.

IMHO, If you live paycheck to paycheck and have to wheel and deal to maintain your boat you are a sailor and if you have investments that earn more than your boat costs you are a yachtsman.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The other annoying noise which maybe unavoidable is AC water exhaust. Liveaboards next slip (3' from my boat) never turn their 3 units off. Like to sit in cockpit ~6am and drink my coffee reading the news, listening to the birds and chilling. That quite is now gone. Motor yacht on other side of finger never goes out. Have never seen the owner on the boat. Nevertheless AC never goes off. Asked yard about it they said owner wants boat dry. 
Noise is just the gentle slap of water. Not a biggy and I'm probably being unreasonable but still a huge difference waking up when on anchor or in the slip. Surprising how ambient noise and its quality effects mood and stress.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

outbound said:


> ...Motor yacht on other side of finger never goes out. Have never seen the owner on the boat. Nevertheless AC never goes off. Asked yard about it they said owner wants boat dry...


A dehumidifier would to a better job keeping the boat dry, and would be much more energy efficient. But I guess those guys don't care about that.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> The other annoying noise which maybe unavoidable is AC water exhaust......


I totally sympathize with noise pollution, understanding everyone defines it differently.

Personally, I don't mind AC raw water discharge that is just running straight into the harbor, like an open smooth flowing hose. If I can hear their compressor running, I find that substantially more annoying, but I rarely do.

We had a power cat a couple of boats away, whose AC discharge was between the hulls. That amplified the sound, like yelling into a cave. It was literally the most annoying boat noise I've ever experienced and it seriously traveled. I have to imagine it was as loud being aboard and never understood why they didn't relocate it. They were very nice people, but would run the unit 24/7, when they were aboard. Just moved south this season. Miss them, not their AC.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> A dehumidifier would to a better job keeping the boat dry, and would be much more energy efficient. But I guess those guys don't care about that.


Hoping an HVAC pro knows the answer. My units have three settings: Heat, cool, dehumidify. When set to dehumidify, the raw water pump does not seem to run. I never understood why. I would have thought a dehumidifier still required heat exchange.

I only set it to dehumidify when I leave, so for all I know it comes on/off intermittently. However, I've notice no discharge while leaving and I know it's running down below. At least the air handlers are running and I've sometimes wondered if that's all it's doing.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Speaking of obnoxious A/C, a few years back there was an old Chris Craft aft cabin boat that never left the slip (summer liveaboards). Their A/C ran 24/7. They got kicked out of the marina without notice around September. I asked the marina manager what happened, and she said that their reverse cycle could not keep up with the heat with the river water above 80F, so they hooked up the marina's city water directly to the intake. They got away with it until the marina noticed that their monthly water bill went up by over $3000. The marina went looking for leaks and caught him at that time.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Hoping an HVAC pro knows the answer. My units have three settings: Heat, cool, dehumidify. When set to dehumidify, the raw water pump does not seem to run. I never understood why. I would have thought a dehumidifier still required heat exchange.
> 
> I only set it to dehumidify when I leave, so for all I know it comes on/off intermittently. However, I've notice no discharge while leaving and I know it's running down below. At least the air handlers are running and I've sometimes wondered if that's all it's doing.


 I was thinking of a dedicated household dehumidifier with a drain into the bilge, plus a couple small fans to circulate air in the cabins. No reverse cycle or water intake needed.

I moved my small Peltier unit from _Take Five_ to the new boat. It's small enough that it sits on the galley counter and drains into the sink. But it's little too small for larger yachts, so a basement-type unit would be better for them.

By the way, I keep my sink drain through-hull closed, but the Peltier unit does not remove enough water to overflow the sink while I'm away from the boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> I was thinking of a dedicated household dehumidifier with a drain into the bilge.....


I suspected you were. It was just that your suggestion reminded me of my question.

I do like the idea of a standalone dehumidifier, but they put off some heat too. Nice side affect for winter condensation for a live aboard. Exactly why I wonder how the installed models work without circulating water. (Unless mine have always been broken)


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## mica (Jul 10, 2016)

nolatom said:


> Also, when is a "boat" a "yacht"? I've lived around both, and still don't know..


If you wash it, it's a boat. If you have someone wash it for you, it's a yacht.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

mica said:


> If you wash it, it's a boat. If you have someone wash it for you, it's a yacht.


I have teen aged indentured participants for cleaning duties so I guess I'm a Yachtie.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Here are some traditional definitions: A boat is able to be taken aboard a ship. A yacht is used for recreation.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Scotty C-M said:


> Here are some traditional definitions: A boat is able to be taken aboard a ship. A yacht is used for recreation.


Cool I have that one too.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

On the global definition, sailors we've met from the EU refer to any sailing auxiliary as a yacht. Plus they often refer to sailors that are more cruising oriented, as yachtsmen. This as opposed to racers that may not have the experience that goes with general sailing.

I'm more comfortable with sailing a boat than a yacht. I think the term yacht has a US stigma that other countries don't have.


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