# CS 36 T vs. CS 36 Merlin



## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

The CS 36 Traditional (Raymond Wall designed) and the CS 36 Merlin (Tony Castro designed) sailboats share the CS name and at a casual glance have some familial resemblance. However they are two very different vessels.

I am familiar with both and the differences / compromises of each design. The CS36T weighs considerably more then the Merlin and one would think that the Merlin would be a faster boat.
However looking at the "PHRF-NE BASE HANDICAPS 22 July 2013"
the ratings suggest that the CS36T is rated as a faster boat then the Merlin.

CS 36	123
CS 36 MERLIN WK	138
CS 36 SD	132

Racing presently in a large J 105 fleet, so my interest is simply if the CS 36 Traditional is a faster cruiser then the Merlin.
Any comments? Are the ratings values wrong in the printed data?
Just interested if the older design is a faster boat since it weighs 3000 lbs. more! 13,000 (Merlin) vs. 16,000 lbs (CS36T)


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I had a 36T for several years. Solid boat but I doubt it's faster than the Merlin if my 40 is indication.
JIm


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

Hi Jim,

The CS 40 with longer W/L and more sail area is a faster boat then a CS36M.

The same ratings table lists the CS 40 PHRF ratings:

CS 40	99
CS 40 SM	108
CS 40 TM	93
CS 40 WK	105

There was a CS40 named "Freestyle" finished the Lake Ontario 300 a couple of weeks ago, "Freestyle" rated 78 phrf/ 1.1815 in that race.

A CS 36M "Maroca II" rated 159, and a CS36 "Mythos" rated 146 maybe the 159 rating is for white sail only? 

Just trying to figure out the actual ratings difference between the T & M CS 36. 
Thanks


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

Hi Jim,

Just curious if the CS 36T you previously owned was a deep draft 6'3" or the shoal draft. Any input on the difference in sailing performance (other then speed) between your CS36T and CS 40?

I am particularily interested in how the two boats sailed into and with waves of varying size (and angles)

Sailed beside a CS36M yesterday (on a CS36T deep draft) in 15-18 knt winds and a 2.5-3 ft sea. I noticed a difference in the way the two boats handled the waves and the effect the waves had on the hulls. 

Any input from the Sailnet community?

Maine Sail?


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I've had my Merlin for 3 years. My rating in the PNW is 147. (4C55) (My genoa is a bit small due to the roller furling)

We're generally a light air venue.

Never sailed with a 36T.. I would suspect that the 36T is faster upwind than me and that the Merlin is faster downwind, as the Merlin's bottom is flatter..

I've wondered why my handicap is as high as it is.. I suspect it's because, from what I can tell, very few Merlins are raced, and those that are raced are probably not that good at it (including myself).. which will affect the PHRF rating over time..

How's that for speculation?

At any rate, my Merlin is a joy to sail. Had a 6 hour spinnaker run yesterday, hitting a solid 8 knots for the last hour, with wind in the mid-teens.



David


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

fast2tack said:


> Any comments? Are the ratings values wrong in the printed data?
> Just interested if the older design is a faster boat since it weighs 3000 lbs. more! 13,000 (Merlin) vs. 16,000 lbs (CS36T)


I think the design weight of the Merlin was 13500 but I don't think any came out of the Brampton factory weighing that. Most were much more. Mine ( Hull number 36, 1988) comes in close to 16,000 lbs.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Something else to consider when thinking about speed when cruising is that you are likely to have the same weight of crap in either boat so the performance penalty will be much worse on the lighter boat. I don't really know the Merlin but quite like the 36T, almost bought one once. I had a concern about the lack of a proper bilge. Any water inside the boat, and there will be water, will roll up into various lockers when you heel or even roll.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

The shallow bilge on my Merlin is annoying and very hard to keep dry


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

My 36t was a deep draft. It really didn't move well til we had 15kts of breeze. That said when it powered up it was a freight train. Easily held course and well balanced. Likes the rail down. Was hard to sail inside of 35 degrees. The trac on the gps would be higher if you cracked off a bit.
The 40 is a totally different animal. Sails well starting at 8 kts of breeze and flys over 14. Likes to sail fairly flat. We start reefing at 18. Points higher and drives thru seas much better than the 36. Off the wind w/ the chute, "hasta la vista baby" we see 8 - 10 boat speed. This is on a loaded up cruiser w/ 300' of 3/8 chain, 45 lb cqr and a 10' RIB on davits.
Sails more like a race boat and you have to stay focused or you will be all over the place. Being a retired avid racer it's a blast to drive. 
Jim


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Interesting...

The Merlin is fast in light air, as long as she has a bit of heel... Won't point particularly high in the light stuff (Or at least I haven't figured out how yet)..

Vague catchprases follow that seem right:

"Tracks like she's on rails.." 
"Stable.." 
"powerful..."
"Digs her shoulder in and just goes"

Sure would like to sail a 40 some time... Turbo diesel makes me nervous, though..


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Vasco said:


> I think the design weight of the Merlin was 13500 but I don't think any came out of the Brampton factory weighing that. Most were much more. Mine ( Hull number 36, 1988) comes in close to 16,000 lbs.


The travel lift scales said mine weighs about what Vasco's does... (they claim they were recently calibrated, but I wouldn't put much faith in them)


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> Something else to consider when thinking about speed when cruising is that you are likely to have the same weight of crap in either boat so the performance penalty will be much worse on the lighter boat. I don't really know the Merlin but quite like the 36T, almost bought one once. I had a concern about the lack of a proper bilge. Any water inside the boat, and there will be water, will roll up into various lockers when you heel or even roll.


 Good point! Most boats are loaded up with the same amount of gear and the only choice is to keep it low and centered.

The shallow bilge is a drawback and the water will "slosh" over to the side and actually get trapped under the water tanks. If you "tack" the water just slops over to the other side. I have seen where the shallow bilge has allowed the floor boards to rot (underside) from the moisture.


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

Vasco said:


> I think the design weight of the Merlin was 13500 but I don't think any came out of the Brampton factory weighing that. Most were much more. Mine ( Hull number 36, 1988) comes in close to 16,000 lbs.


 The advertised vs. actual weight of a Merlin seems like a huge discrepancy.
If both the 36 T & the 36M are similar in displacement the PHRF ratings would make more sense.
I would assume that your 36M weighed in at close to 16,000 lbs completely kitted out with gear, fuel, water fully rigged?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Not to say that the numbers mentioned are right or wrong. BUT, some designers use different displacement figures for boats. The merlin may be actual base wt as built, the 36T at a half load. Which could put it heavier per say in the brochure than the Merlin. BP could probably explain the difference better than I did.......BUT, none the less, the figures could be different, yet the boats will weigh the same at the end.

Also, I would expect based on hull design, a bit more pounding going up wind with the merlin than the 36T. I am also going by Davids comparison of his boat to my Jeanneau Aracadia that is about 28' on deck, but also a Castro design of the same vintage. He mentioned one time a couple of yrs ago when I had my boat out, that he could see some similarities between them in the underwater hull sections. 

Some other options that could have happened, is the Merlin may be a faster hull per say, CS may have added another layer of cloth than Castro speced, made some parts of the cabin interior of thicker plywood/solid wood etc, or potentially dumbed the rig down some from original to make it a better cruiser in their mind, so while it "should" be a faster boat, it is not.

Reality is, both will probably work, but handle as noted differently in different conditions. 

Marty


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

Hi Vasco,
I would very much like to speak with you about CS 36 Merlins. With less then 10 posts have not been able to contact you through PM so I was hoping you could PM me with your contact info.
I have seen your CS 36 Merlin out sailing at least three times this summer and would like to chat about your Merlin.
Thanks in advance,
fast2tack


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Design weight and actual weight are rarely the same...or close in some cases.
For instance, I have a Catalina 34 whose designed weight is 12,550. I have never heard of a member that owns a C34 that weighs less than 14,000 lbs. empty.


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

Interesting....the variation in advertised weights and actual.

It seems that the manufacturers under estimate the weight on most occasions.

At least it is better then the "advertised" fuel consumption on most automobiles.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Here's something else to consider.

The CS36T came with two keel selections, shoal and deep.

The CS36M came with three different keels.
Initially a deep keel and for the shoal keel a patented Hydrokeel wing, later they used a plain shoal draft keel. I got the hydrokeel when I bought my boat in 1988.

fast2track,
you can get me at my gmail addy. itenson and then the gmail.com


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

email sent
looking forward to speaking with you
thanks


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

djodenda said:


> The shallow bilge on my Merlin is annoying and very hard to keep dry


You have water INSIDE your boat?:laugher

But yeah, the bilges are a bit shallow.

I have a Merlin; liked it b/c it's the smaller version of the CS40 which I used to race on. I'm in my second season w/ the boat and still working things out, but overall I'm very happy w/ it. PHRF here on Chesapeake Bay is 126 which includes a 3 sec. penalty for an oversized spin pole. (which I don't freaking use!)

I single hand the boat a lot. It goes well in light air; AWS 3 knots on the beam and I'm doing 4 knots w/ my Assy up. A little tender when the wind pipes up but I keep my water tanks empty and not a lot of stuff on the boat.
If beating to windward and no railmeat I tend to reef around 18 knots AWS.

On the delivery down we were surfing waves outside Delaware bay and hit 10.4 knots!

Boat is supposed to disp. 13000# and I suspect that's pretty much right on.
I have the deep keel version and while it keeps me out of a few nice anchorages... it does like to go to windward!


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

Research shows the CS 36 Traditional has a taller rig and more sail area.
This might explain the reason why the Merlin only rates slightly faster on PHRF ratings.

Thanks Vasco for the info and the insightful conversation.


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## shyam.habarakada (Apr 20, 2014)

Hello jimrafford,
I was reading through the forums and noticed you own a CS 40 and love it. I am considering a 36T or a 40 that is for sale here in Seattle and was wondering if I could pick your brain. Perhaps a phone call?

my email is shyam.habarakada (at) gmail (dot) com

Please let me know if you'd be able to chat a bit on this.

Thanks
shyam


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

shyam.habarakada said:


> Hello jimrafford,
> I was reading through the forums and noticed you own a CS 40 and love it. I am considering a 36T or a 40 that is for sale here in Seattle and was wondering if I could pick your brain. Perhaps a phone call?
> 
> my email is shyam.habarakada (at) gmail (dot) com
> ...


You night also PM if possible djodenda who posted earlier inth e thread. He had a 36 merlin which would be similar to the CS40 at MSC, as both are designed by Tony Castro. Similar lines, etc.

marty


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## Ina (Feb 26, 2021)

I'll resurrect this thread.

The CS 36 Merlin was customizable.

I recall right.

''The CS 36 MERLIN, while having similar dimensions to the CS 36 TRADITIONAL, is a completely different design. While it was being produced a purchaser had five pages of options to choose from— a Kevlar or fibreglass hull; a swim platform or regular transom; a 28 hp diesel or a 43 hp turbo; a tall or regular rig and by the end, four keel configurations (shoal, wing, deep and performance bulb). As a result, other than the 20 or so that went into charter, no two Merlins are alike.'' This can be found on Sailboat.guide, on the page devolved to the Merlin 36.

Like it almost literally says, the choices where huge, so the ratings will be according to the choices made for a particular of the CS 36 Merlin, not for the whole model.

Now if you compare the hull speed, you see that there should be a not so big difference between the two, about 0.4k, and that it goes in favor of the Merlin. I won't garanty it because some boat designers will actually volontarily increase the sailplan on paper to make it look like a more powerful boat, this by calculating the sailplan differently than usually done, but as the two are from the same builder, it is likely that either it isn't the case or it was twice the case.

So the simple answer is that it is not likely to be the case, or if it is, it is because of choices made by a specific owner (like one who has a big engine, adds a lot of furniture, etc.).


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