# Foresail slab reefing



## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Was looking at one of L and L Pardey's books, that suggests putting reefing points in foresails to keep from having to have a bunch of different size sails aboard. What do you think? I like the idea of paying for fewer sails. It also would be quicker/safer to reef than to change sails. Obviously, we are talking about hanked-on sails here.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Barquito said:


> Was looking at one of L and L Pardey's books, that suggests putting reefing points in foresails to keep from having to have a bunch of different size sails aboard. What do you think? I like the idea of paying for fewer sails. It also would be quicker/safer to reef than to change sails. Obviously, we are talking about hanked-on sails here.


I can see your argument about needing a smaller number of sails.

But are you sure that reefing is quicker than changing for a smaller sail? You will need to tie clew and tack and reef nettles. Not sure if that is really faster than unhanking a sail and getting another one up.

Also, how good will the shape of the sail be after reefing? We all know it stinks with roller reefing; is that better with slab reefing?

I would love to be proven wrong, I have thought about reefing jibs myself but haven't done anything about it because I thought there must be a reason nobody does it.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Those are just the questions I had about the set-up too.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We had that setup on a previous boat.

The sail sets fine, no issues such as those with partially furled sails. You can get the luff tension you need just as if you were hoisting a full sail. It is faster than a full sail change with hanks, you needn't unhank anything (or, if any, just the lower one or two), lower the halyard and attach the tack to the reef tack cringle (whether you have hooks or shackles for this may make a difference)

You do need to reposition the sheet, so if you have individual sheets, you can retie the lazy sheet to the reef cringle,(Don't forget to adjust the jib lead appropriately too), do a slow tack, during which you lower, attach the new tack, retension, and sheet in on the new (reefed) clew. This can keep you mostly moving during the maneuver, and much less disruptive than a bare headed change. 

You can then, at your leisure, roll and tie up the excess sail of the reef into a tightish tube along the reef points. Hopefully by this time the 'new' sail is not a lapper and the fat sausage of the reef will easily go across the boat on the next tack.

To take the reef out you simply reverse the process.

Not as clean or as good as a proper jib (you lose luff length, of course) but it can save on inventory size. I would suggest that this is a more effective/practical idea used to turn a #3 jib into a #4 rather than 'reefing' a #1/150 genoa.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Yes, this does work. The Mini 6.5 class has been doing it for a while. They put it to use b/c of limits on the number of sails they could carry on board. Give a sailmaker a call. Price should be anywhere from $400-1000 depending on the sail size. 

I'm not sure I'd want a #3 reefed to a #4. The windage on the front of the boat with the bunched up sail, and the clew should be a lot higher on a #4. Either way, it's a compromise.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

zz4gta said:


> ...I'm not sure I'd want a #3 reefed to a #4. The windage on the front of the boat with the bunched up sail, and the clew should be a lot higher on a #4. Either way, it's a compromise.


The reef points could be installed NOT parallel to the foot, raising the clew to wherever you wanted it... but yes, either way it's a compromise

I think the large amount of material on a 150, couple with the need to drag that around the rig on each tack makes the technique less advisable for long LP sails.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Original Shore Sails J24 sails had a 25% ? Reef in the 100% jib which worked really well


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Hmm it is blowing 25 to 30 and I am beating to windward.

I say to my rockstar bowman " Please reef my no 4 jib and turn it into a no 3.
I do realise that you will be dallying over the lee rail while tieing in the reef points but do make it quick old boy."

Reply " Expletive deleted off "


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

You still have to go forward and tidy it up, and you still have a finite number of reefs, whereas with a furling headsail you have infinite sailsize. Yeah, there is the question of sail shape with roller furling, but come on, is a reefing jib going to be THAT much better?

*Blasphemy follows. Disciples have been warned.* 

I love the Pardeys for being pioneers, but much of their experimentation occurred 4 decades ago, and much of it didn't work then, all romance aside. If you're not in a hurry to get anywhere, if you want to work harder than you have to and be less comfortable than necessary, then by all means, Pardey it up. My point is, better solutions have come along in the four decades that L and L have been begging tows into anchorages. You wouldn't waste time modifying a Commodore 64 to allow you to post on Sailnet, would you?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

bljones said:


> You still have to go forward and tidy it up, and you still have a finite number of reefs, whereas with a furling headsail you have infinite sailsize. Yeah, there is the question of sail shape with roller furling, but come on, is a reefing jib going to be THAT much better?


I thought the original question was reefing the foresail instead of changing down to a smaller one. If you have roller furling it isn't an issue or an option.

I have a jib with reef points but have never reefed it. I do not have roller furling and have no plans to get a furler.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

bljones said:


> *Blasphemy follows. Disciples have been warned.*


:laugher:laugher:laugher

I love the pardeys and have all of their books (except Larry's book on building woden boats, because I've sworn off wooden boats). I love the pardeys but I have a furler, an electrical system and I LOVE my motor. The reason I love them is because they show you what the absolute minimum is to do everything possible under sail. Knowing what the minimum is, I can add to it if I like, but it's nice to know just how many things on the boat are "needed" and now many are "wanted."

To the OP: Yes, jib reefing seems like a really good idea. The added cost of the reef points essentially buys you a second sail. If I didn't have a furler, I'd DEFINATELY have reef points. What's the downside? If you decide you hate the setup you're only out the $150 initial cost for the points and you still have a fully functional sail.

Have you seen the pardey book Cost Conscious Cruiser? It explains their jib setup in detail. It involves a zipper and is actually quite novel in that you just "zip off" and remove the lower 1/3 or the sail and stow it. Another idea I've thought would be great would be to use a zipper to bring together a high and low panel of a sail instead of zipping off a panel as the pardeys do. Batwing(tm) sails do this. See images below:

In the first image notice how 2 of the horizontal battens are darker and thicker than the others? They have zippers on them. 









The sail is lowered by the length of one sail panel and the two hoirzontal zippers are zipped together. Notice the bag of loose sail in the middle of the second picture here? Also notice how the sail is now not at full hoist. 









The above setup is REALLY fast to deploy or shake out a reef (I've used small sails like the ones in the picture) and you don't have to store the bottom part of a sail you've zipped off. On the other hand the pardey method removes the overlapping portion of a sail and you won't be dragging loose sail across the mast/shrouds when tacking with a furled sail.

MedSailor


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

zz4gta said:


> Yes, this does work. The Mini 6.5 class has been doing it for a while. They put it to use b/c of limits on the number of sails they could carry on board. Give a sailmaker a call. Price should be anywhere from $400-1000 depending on the sail size.
> .


This seems to be well in the realm of a sailor with some sewing skills. I put in a third reef in my mainsail. The biggest issue was feeding the sail in the Sailrite for the reinforcement patches. This should be a lot easier for a jib.

Hm, this winter is thankfully nearly over. Maybe a project for the next one.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> :laugher:laugher:laugher
> 
> I love the pardeys and have all of their books (except Larry's book on building woden boats, because I've sworn off wooden boats). I love the pardeys but I have a furler, an electrical system and I LOVE my motor. The reason I love them is because they show you what the absolute minimum is to do everything possible under sail. Knowing what the minimum is, I can add to it if I like, but it's nice to know just how many things on the boat are "needed" and now many are "wanted."
> 
> ...


Hm, I haven't thought of a zipper. I can see this on a sail for an inflatable kayak but on a real boat? Then again, if he Pardeys recommend it, maybe...

Here is another idea: what about single line reefing? Have a line reeved permanently through the reef nettle eyelets. Reefing then involves hooking the luff cringle, moving the sheet to the higher clew cringle, and just pull on this ONE line through the reef nettle eyelets, instead of tying a knot at each of them.

Only downside I can see that it could get hung up on something.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Thanks for the input everyone. I can see that tacking could be an issue if you need to drag a big sausage of sail across the shrouds. Seems to me that the time from deciding to reef, to sailing with the reefed jib would be much less than hanking on a new sail. You could then take your time tying the reef points. I like the idea of making the clew higher. If you are going down in size, you are also probably more likely to be in higher seas. I think the thing that would sway me to actually doing this, is that I would have one less sailbag to store on my narrow 27'er.


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

I have a 155 with reef points, have used it. Sail change is better but it works. I have not seen a jib with reef points that also has "tie off" points across the newly formed foot- I've only seen tack and clew points, and the loose foot can't really be rolled up and stay rolled as there's nothing to tie it, so it just flails along the bottom which is unpleasant.
As far as dragging the reefed off portion across deck on a tack, that's not a problem- if there's enough wind to be reefing, the sail will come across.


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## donlofland (Dec 8, 2008)

I bought a used foresail for my Catalina 27, a bit smaller than my 110% "lapper"-I'd guess ~80%.

It has reef points, though I've never reefed it. It's made of ~6 oz material, so it's heavier for stronger winds, and I think it'd be heavy enough for the stronger winds in which I'd reef it.

Given the increasing weight of the sail cloth between my #1, #2 & #3 foresails, I don't think I'd want a panel reef in those sails_I'd end up flying the reefed sail in conditions too windy for the weight of the sail cloth.

The foot of this sail is short enough so unreefed it clears the shrouds during tacks, so the "tube" hanging up on the shrouds wouldn't be an issue.

I'm not sure when I'd chose to reef this sail instead of flying the storm jib, though. Sometime I'll get out when it's windy and fool around with it a bit...

Just some thoughts...


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

I have to agree with donlofland the sail would really have to be built to handle the wind strength that the reefed sail could handle. That would make it too heavy for normal use. 

Lets say you have a 155 that is good up to 16 knots apparent on your boat. Now if you reef that down to a number two size your boat might be able to carry it up to say 22 knots apparent. That it a huge increase in force on the sail. It will have to be heavy and not work at all well in 6 knots of air. 

And that is not even mentioning the loss of luff length which will definitely affect performance. 

Gary


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Like others said, reefing down a big genoa might not be such a good idea. I was thinking my suit of sails could be something like: big (light-ish) genoa, reefable 110, and a storm jib. The 110 could be reefed down to something between the 110 and the storm jib in sail area. The foot length would then be short enough to clear the shrouds in a tack. I would loose luff length, but, maybe that would help to keep the boat on it's feet.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

If you really want to make things simple(ish) but don't want to install a RF set-up, Here's a thought: install a baby stay, and keep a stormsail hanked and bagged to the baby stay. Install a very long downhaul to the head of your working jib, with the tail led back through a fairlead or two to the foot of the baby stay, then threaded to the head of your staysail. The halyard for your staysail is led back to the cockpit. now, want to change sails? just uncleat the jib halyard, and raise your stay sail. as you raise the staysail, the jib comes down. Now the big sail is on deck, the boat is more controlled and it is a simple matter to deal with the jib on the deck.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Good point, donofland, about the sail having to be constructed of a heavier cloth in order to survive the higher winds when reefed. I doubt that this is a big of a deal as one might imagine. A mainsail, for example, is one weight of cloth for all wind ranges and nobody maligns the cloth weight issue here. L&L Pardey are sticklers for performance and don't even have an engine and they must have been at peace with the idea as they have a reefing/zipper genoa. 

I might be wrong here but I believe cloth weight is mostly related to the size of the boat and sails and less about wind range. A boat with a 20ft mast has shorter unsupported sections of sailcloth than a boat with a 40ft mast. Also the boat with the 20ft mast has a 100sqft sail where as the boat with a 40ft mast has 400sqft of sail and with the wind force being a cube of the velocity.... well you get the picture. 

For any given wind speed the 40ft mast boat must have cloth to support much heavier loads of it's 400sqft sail than the 100sqft sail of the 20ft mast boat in the same wind. If heavier cloth made for poor performance in any appreciable way then the little boats would be sailing circles around the big ones in races. 


If you decide to go ahead and get a slab-reef in your genoa, don't just let the sailmaker put a horizontal set of reef points at %30 of the sail area. Have him angle the reef in such a way as the new reefed clew, when set, will have a similar but slightly more horizontal angle of the sheet with the SAME CAR POSITION. This will allow you to reef without also having to change your genoa car positions and will simplify the reefing operation significantly. Also the slightly more horizontal pull, in favor of an identical sheet angle to the unreefed state, is better for higher winds. 

MedSailor

MedSailor


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bljones said:


> I love the Pardeys for being pioneers, but much of their experimentation occurred 4 decades ago, and much of it didn't work then, all romance aside. If you're not in a hurry to get anywhere, if you want to work harder than you have to and be less comfortable than necessary, then by all means,* Pardey Hardy*.


Fixed it for you BL.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> If you decide to go ahead and get a slab-reef in your genoa, don't just let the *sailmaker* put a horizontal set of reef points at %30 of the sail area. Have him angle the reef in such a way as the new reefed clew, when set, will have a similar but slightly more horizontal angle of the sheet with the SAME CAR POSITION. This will allow you to reef without also having to change your genoa car positions and will simplify the reefing operation significantly. Also the slightly more horizontal pull, in favor of an identical sheet angle to the unreefed state, is better for higher winds.


Good point. If I do this, the sailmaker will be me.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Our 150 had reefing cringles. You can see them here:










And Faster's explanation above is perfect for how it all works. However, I never like the sausage. It's probably better if your headsail trims inside your lifelines/shrouds - but it really did get messy tacking with that thing. And keep in mind - I sail in a lake so I do TONS of tacking. Off shore it probably wouldn't matter as much.

All that said, I'm definitely a fan of rollers over hanks.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> All that said, I'm definitely a fan of rollers over hanks.


I didn't even know Tom made an album... and I'm not gonna mock you too hard for being a fan of the boys in plaid.

No, really. Honest. "Saturday Night" was a rock and roll masterpiece.

(Come on, it was that or question your assertion that you "never like the sausage." I'll take the obscure pop-culture route over easy gay jokes anytime.)


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> All that said, I'm definitely a fan of rollers over hanks.


I don't think I would switch from roller furling to hanks, if I already had roller furling equipment on board. However, with a number of argument in both columns, I don't see myself switching to roller furling just yet. And yes, I think size does matter. I would want to keep the sausage short enough to stay off the lifelines and inside the shrouds. I'm a lake sailor too, but, could stay on the same tack for a couple of days.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Barquito said:


> I don't think I would switch from roller furling to hanks, if I already had roller furling equipment on board. However, with a number of argument in both columns, I don't see myself switching to roller furling just yet. And yes, I think size does matter. I would want to keep the sausage short enough to stay off the lifelines and inside the shrouds. I'm a lake sailor too,* but, could stay on the same tack for a couple of days.*


Lucky bastard.


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## GunnerDear (Jun 29, 2021)

bljones said:


> You still have to go forward and tidy it up, and you still have a finite number of reefs, whereas with a furling headsail you have infinite sailsize. Yeah, there is the question of sail shape with roller furling, but come on, is a reefing jib going to be THAT much better?
> 
> _Blasphemy follows. Disciples have been warned._
> 
> I love the Pardeys for being pioneers, but much of their experimentation occurred 4 decades ago, and much of it didn't work then, all romance aside. If you're not in a hurry to get anywhere, if you want to work harder than you have to and be less comfortable than necessary, then by all means, Pardey it up. My point is, better solutions have come along in the four decades that L and L have been begging tows into anchorages. You wouldn't waste time modifying a Commodore 64 to allow you to post on Sailnet, would you?



YES sail shape is Far Better.








REEFABLE HEADSAILS: PERFECT FOR SHORTHANDED SAILING — UK Sailmakers


Many sailors are aware how quickly and efficiently reefing your mainsail will help you get your boat back under control when the wind picks up. Tucking a reef and shaking it quickly can be easy once your boat is set up properly and you have practiced. If taking a reef doesn’t depo




www.uksailmakers.com





BUT NO It is not a substitute for having a proper sail inventory BUT Neither is roller furling.
the question is WHAT type of sail do you have on your roller Furler? Is it a true light air sail?? or is it a reinforced high wind sail? Usually its Nether. At best roller reefing is a compromise as the sail must be heavy enough to handle being rolled up and the wind pulling on a partially rolled sail. With Hank on sails you have the Right sail for the conditions. the attachment where the sail is pulling on is ALWAYS the reinforced edge of the sail.
In light air use a larger lighter weight sail. When wind picks up change it to a smaller But also heavier weight sail (possibly with reefing points). then When its really blowing storm sails. 

The Pardeys always had Cutter Rigged boats. Because the two head sail options really give you flexibility in sail plan. Simply Dropping your Jib and sailing with just the stay sail still too much reef the stay sail. Need more sail in Light air Fly a large Light weight Gennaker. NO its not the modern way. BUT who said Sailing was a Modern way to travel anyway. 

Seen MORE mishaps on passages on others boats and even daysailer coming back with broken Furling gear sails torn to shreds because they couldn't get the stuck sail down.
Hank on sails are simple you can see your forestays as they are not hidden under a roller system. So many stories ] of broken headstays and furling heads flying around on the end off a partially rolled sail unable to take it down as to lower the halyard they need to unroll the sail. Which they can't do because its partially rolled. Broken Roller leads allowing the sail to fully unfurl when you least expect and its blowing 30Knots. NO THANKS I will take having to put on my foul weather gear and go change a head sail or slab reef it before I EVER put one of those contraptions on my boat.


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