# Long Keel Sailboat?



## Elena (11 mo ago)

I wish to have a short list of long keel fiberglass sailboats. Not a modified one, or the ones that are told to be full keel but are not in actuality. Something that almost turned into a fin keel and a rudder attached to it is not full / long keel. Can someone name a few?


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

You don't give us a size range, but here's a link to a list for starters. 13 Popular Full Keel Sailboats Worth Considering


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

Any size. Of course, not Cutty Shark.


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

Sailormon6 said:


> You don't give us a size range, but here's a link to a list for starters. 13 Popular Full Keel Sailboats Worth Considering


 Westsail and Mason seemed to be long wheel, but the rest has that old style modified keel look. I don't know.


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## J-LOker (Aug 25, 2020)

Cape Dory, Bristol 39 or 35; however cutaway keel for both of them; most Bristol's are my favorite fin keel with skeg rudder; some of the Alberg designed early Pearson's have similar cutaway full keels; I admit partiality towards New England built boats, and if you want a Cadillac check out Morris and Hinckley


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

J-LOker said:


> Cape Dory, Bristol 39 or 35; however cutaway keel for both of them; most Bristol's are my favorite fin keel with skeg rudder; some of the Alberg designed early Pearson's have similar cutaway full keels; I admit partiality towards New England built boats, and if you want a Cadillac check out Morris and Hinckley


I think what I mean is more towards to sailboats like Bristol Channel Cutter 28, Ingrid 38, Westsail 32, and such, where the keel is long, not modified at all. These are the ones on the top of my head. What else?


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

J-LOker said:


> Cape Dory, Bristol 39 or 35; however cutaway keel for both of them; most Bristol's are my favorite fin keel with skeg rudder; some of the Alberg designed early Pearson's have similar cutaway full keels; I admit partiality towards New England built boats, and if you want a Cadillac check out Morris and Hinckley


Interesting. I've always considered Bristol 35 as fin keel.


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

H-28 (HERRESHOFF)
OK, I'm answering my own question.


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## Jolly Roger (Oct 11, 2013)

One of the models missing from Sailarmon6' list is mine: The Down East range, made in San Diego in the 70/80’s were all real long keelers and there are significant advantages to the design.
One is: you don’t find them for sale, owners keep them, which is always a good sign.
The underfloor space in my 45-foot schooner is massive. 22-feet long and 4’6” to the bilge floor, with a ladder for easy access. All the equipment is easy to reach and service, including a 6.5Kw generator and the large Perkins engine.
The keel can’t fall off or break, because there isn’t one as such.
We occasionally run aground in the ICW and just sit there until we figure out a way to get off. I don’t have to have to worry about the keel, rudder or prop being damaged.
Of course, it’s a handfull to antifoul, and she’s not as maneuverable as a fin/skeg boat, or a fast, but that’s fine by me. Horses for courses.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

You want a full (long) keel boat? Look at mine: Rafiki-37.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Would something like a Southern Cross 31 or the Cape George boats meet your specs? Your definition of what qualifies as "full keel" might not match mine. What used to be called a "cutaway forefoot" is now considered "full keel" by most people (like the Bristol 35 or Roger's Down East). For me, "full keel" boats are those where the keel is formed as part of the hull (not bolted on), and the rudder is attached to the aft end of the keel. Granted, there are some boats where so much of the forefoot is cutaway that the keel profile looks almost indistinguishable from a fin keel, but no definition is perfect. For example, I consider the Pearson Triton and the Pearson Vanguard to be full keel boats. I'm guessing you do not.

As Roger and Mike can tell you better than I, there are some pluses to a really traditional full keel. However, IMHO there are even more reasons why they are such a tiny, niche market these days.

You haven't said which characteristics of the full keel boats you like, but keep in mind that there are some "fin keel" boats that are well and truly robust and are better boats in just about every way than the old school full keel boats; for example, check out Pacific Seacraft or the classic Valiant. But to paraphrase Roger, different strokes for different folks. Enjoy your search!


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

This is what I see in my head:

Full keel:









Long keel:









Fin keel:









Sans keel:


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

mstern said:


> As Roger and Mike can tell you better than I, there are some pluses to a really traditional full keel. However, IMHO there are even more reasons why they are such a tiny, niche market these days.


Indeed, there are some advantages to a full-keel boat. Strength, protection for rudder and prop, less prone to damage from impacts, etc. Probably the greatest advantage is their resistance to leeway, and their superior tracking ability. In short, they want to keep going straight. This makes them easy on the helm (once balanced).

Of course, this same principle benefit is also their greatest negative. They want to go straight, which makes them far less manoeuvrable than comparable fin-keel boats. This makes them great out in the deep blue, but really sucky when trying to get around tight areas, including most marinas.

I didn't buy my current boat for its keel. My personal ideal arrangement is a longer (modified) fin keel, with stout skeg-hung rudder. Think Valiant 40/42, or even my previous boat: Grampian 34. I think this gives a better balance of the benefits.

But you don't always get what you want .


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

mstern said:


> Would something like a Southern Cross 31 or the Cape George boats meet your specs? Your definition of what qualifies as "full keel" might not match mine. What used to be called a "cutaway forefoot" is now considered "full keel" by most people (like the Bristol 35 or Roger's Down East). For me, "full keel" boats are those where the keel is formed as part of the hull (not bolted on), and the rudder is attached to the aft end of the keel. Granted, there are some boats where so much of the forefoot is cutaway that the keel profile looks almost indistinguishable from a fin keel, but no definition is perfect. For example, I consider the Pearson Triton and the Pearson Vanguard to be full keel boats. I'm guessing you do not.
> 
> As Roger and Mike can tell you better than I, there are some pluses to a really traditional full keel. However, IMHO there are even more reasons why they are such a tiny, niche market these days.
> 
> You haven't said which characteristics of the full keel boats you like, but keep in mind that there are some "fin keel" boats that are well and truly robust and are better boats in just about every way than the old school full keel boats; for example, check out Pacific Seacraft or the classic Valiant. But to paraphrase Roger, different strokes for different folks. Enjoy your search!


I've always thought Vanguard as a fin keel.


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

Barquito said:


> This is what I see in my head:
> 
> Full keel:
> View attachment 142513
> ...


I use full and long keel terms interchangebly and imagine something like Mike's Rafiki in my head. I don't know; I might be wrong.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Elena said:


> I've always thought Vanguard as a fin keel.


Well, there you have it; we're working from different playbooks. I think for most people, a fin keel boat is one where the keel is bolted onto the hull, and the rudder is a separate structure. The Vanguard does not meet that definition:











The Vanguard certainly has quite a bit of the forefoot cut away. This improved manuverability and decreased wetted surface over a more full keel design, both plusses if you want to get in and out of the marina and sail faster. But as Mike points out, it also allows the boat to make more leeway. An awful lot of boats of this era (early-mid '60's) had a similar hull shape. Keep in mind that the design of the keel on these boats had more to do with the CCA racing rule than it did with any attempts to make the boats sail better or be more comfortable.

The real revolution in boat design was separating the rudder from the keel. Putting the rudder further aft and separating it from the flow of the keel drastically increased manuverability and speed. My favorite "transition" boat with these features is the Pearson Renegade from 1967:









I looked for one of these in decent shape for a few years. It was not to be. But it all worked out in the end.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

The Ingrid 38 would seem to fit the bill. 





SailboatData.com - INGRID 38 Sailboat


Sailboat and sailing yacht searchable database with more than 8,000 sailboats from around the world including sailboat photos and drawings. About the INGRID 38 sailboat




sailboatdata.com




Colin Archer designs as well. 
Though they have followings, these types of designs have fallen out of favor because they tend to be heavy, quite slow and difficult to maneuver. At sea, amply supplied and equipped, that may not be too much of a problem.


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

paulk said:


> The Ingrid 38 would seem to fit the bill.


Yes.


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

Alajuela 38
Allied Seawind II 32
Aquarius Pilot Cutter 24
Bristol Channel Cutter 28
Cape George 36
Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30
Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 
Falmouth Cutter 22
Flicka 20
Frances 26
Hans Christian 38 MkII
Hardin 45
Herreshoff's H-28
Hudson Force 50
Ingrid 38
Kaiser 26
Rafiki 37
Southern Cross 31
Vancouver 25
Voyager 26
Westsail 28 / 32

These are the major ones, I assume. A few of them must be designed based on each other's designs. Which ones here, or among the others that I forgot to list, do have the best sailing characteristics? A comparison among themselves - not to modern or other keel designs. I'll also create a thread about shallow fin keels later on. I don't know; I hope rest of the crowd is also as interested as I am.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I think you mean Rafiki 37 (mine). There is no Rafiki 31. There is a Rafiki 35, although it is quite different than the 37.


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

MikeOReilly said:


> I think you mean Rafiki 37 (mine). There is no Rafiki 31. There is a Rafiki 35, although it is quite different than the 37.


Fixed.
🍻


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Elena said:


> A few of them must be designed based on each other's designs.


I guess thats the nature of all design. Some bright spark designs something new and if it works everyone follows.
I don't know any modern designer of sailboats that would now design anything but a modern fin keel or something fairly similar. Why? Because they work better.

I know in the UK there are many unique keels because many boats need to be able to sit on mud when the tide goes out. But apart for those type uses advanced design aided by computers has refined boat keels in only one direction.

As some folks here have gently alluded to, long/full keel boats don't have what most people want in a boat. Most want a boat that will keep up with the rest, easily manoeuvrable, can back into a marina easily... 

I am in a bay in the Caribbean with about 100 boats at anchor. There maybe one or two full keelers. Why no more?


Mark


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I don't know any modern designer of sailboats that would now design anything but a modern fin keel or something fairly similar. Why? Because they work better.
> I know in the UK there are many unique keels because many boats need to be able to sit on mud when the tide goes out. But apart for those type uses advanced design aided by computers has refined boat keels in only one direction.


I really didn't mean full/long keel works better than, or is desired more than, any modern fin designs of today - No doubt a modern fin keel works better. This thread has been completely independent from that fact, just a comparison among a few old full keels - a subject of interest of mine. Nothing but a share of thoughts.

I don't think there are any brand-new bilge keels and such in production in the UK anymore. I might be wrong though.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

OK, cool  I understand


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> OK, cool  I understand


🍻


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

So, which one sails the best?


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I know in the UK there are many unique keels because many boats need to be able to sit on mud when the tide goes out. But apart for those type uses advanced design aided by computers has refined boat keels in only one direction.


I've found this article.
Why twin keels are making a comeback - Yachting Monthly


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## Michael Bailey (Sep 10, 2021)

There is no "best" sailboat. It is just a romantic dream. They are almost all toys. We are living in a time of affluence where such things are possible for many ordinary citizens. On your list a Cape George 36 cutter set up to suit me would be my pick from your list. The same boat would most likely be entirely different set up to suit you or infact, anyone else. Of course, the reality seldom matches the dream......


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Michael Bailey said:


> There is no "best" sailboat. It is just a romantic dream. They are almost all toys. We are living in a time of affluence where such things are possible for many ordinary citizens. On your list a Cape George 36 cutter set up to suit me would be my pick from your list. The same boat would most likely be entirely different set up to suit you or infact, anyone else. Of course, the reality seldom matches the dream......


A design is optimized for the criteria the owner/builder and architect choose... including the budget and where the boat is to be sailed.


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## garymalmgren (Jan 26, 2021)

Hi Elena
Re: So, which one sails the best? 
*
Could you define "best", please?*

gary


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

You might enjoy reading about the Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 in "Atlantic Circle" by Kathryn Lasky Knight. She describes crossing the Atlantic, cruising in Northern Europe, taking the canals to the Med, returning across the Atlantic to the Caribbean, and then back to Maine. Atlantic Circle


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

paulk said:


> You might enjoy reading about the Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 in "Atlantic Circle" by Kathryn Lasky Knight. She describes crossing the Atlantic, cruising in Northern Europe, taking the canals to the Med, returning across the Atlantic to the Caribbean, and then back to Maine. Atlantic Circle


🍻


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## Elena (11 mo ago)

garymalmgren said:


> Hi Elena
> Re: So, which one sails the best?
> 
> *Could you define "best", please?*
> ...


I have no definition. If I have to, I might end up defining a J/9 or a J122E.
Let's say among the full keels which one is shining for any reason.


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