# Opinions: Seaward 23 or Catalina 22 or other suggestions?



## CJ_AEGIS (Jun 28, 2016)

Hi! New to the forum. We have been researching and looking at getting a trailerable sailboat for some time now. In terms of what we are looking for use wise. We live near the lower Hudson River along the Hudson Highlands so we would probably principally be sailing on the river. We will probably start out just using the trailer but may switch to keeping it moored. There are a couple clubs/marinas near us that are an option. 

That being said we want the capability to trailer the boat up to other lakes in New York. Lake Champlain, Oneida Lake, and the Finger Lakes would be some on our list along with Long Island Sound. It would be nice (once we have the confidence in our own abilities) to have enough boat to handle being in and among the area around Mount Desert Island in Maine as we vacation up there frequently. It would usually be the two of us but it would be nice to have enough boat to take out two other adults on for the day. Also the capability to stay overnight with just two people on the boat would be nice. 

We want a good first boat to learn on with the goal of eventually upgrading to something larger that could handle coast cruising if we fall in love with sailing. That being said it would be nice to also get something initially that we end really liking. We have talked about how it would be nice to hold on to the trailerable boat since it is a lot faster to get a trailerable boat to distant spots. 

So far the two boats that have caught our eyes are first the Catalina 22. It seems like it is widely regarded as a nice starter boat and the ubiquitous trailer sailer. The two complaints I seem to see regarding it is the low companionway makes it prone to possible flooding from the cockpit and some seem dubious on the swing keel variants.

The second is the Seaward 23. I haven’t seen many complaints regarding these boats. The price seems higher on average than the Catalina 22 but I’m not surprised by that. The bottom of the companionway is at least level with the cockpit seats rather than below like the Catalina. I do wonder how the wing keel is for loading versus the swing keel on the Catalina? The opinions I have seen tend to vary?

For that matter anyone have any other suggestions besides these two? I have been researching a fair amount but I am open to suggestions. The Oday 22 has come up several times.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Worrying about cockpit flooding is not something you should be thinking about, if the weather and water is that bad you should not be out there. And if you were you would have the drop boards in place. C 22 is a good choice but for 4 adults it would be quite intimate. Unless you really love towing and spending time rigging and derigging, trailer sailing gets real old real quick. But that is my opinion. Some people love it!


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't know the Seawind 23, but I just looked it up at it's 3' longer and nearly a foot beamier than a Catalina 22. 

I'm on my third year with a Catalina 22. As I posted recently on this forum it seems a few feet too small when we're spending the night, but it seems a few feet too big when I have to trailer it!

If nothing goes wrong it takes me a bit over an hour to take it out of the lake and get it on the trailer, and about two hours going the other direction. It's not something I'd want to do very often, although I'm sure the more you do it the quicker it goes. I've heard some people say it takes them 30 minutes on each end, but this sounds terribly optimistic to me.

A Catalina 22 is a great size for four people for a day sail or a meal. We've sailed with six adults a few times and that was getting crowded, but four adults works fine. 

My wife and I spend the night sometimes. It's cozy, but fun. We put boards across the cabin and sleep crosswise on the boat. The v-berth is just for storage. Note: I am 5' 9" and she is shorter. If you are a tall people it might not work as well for you.

It's my first boat, and it's a great first boat because of all the support. There are over 15,000 of them so if you have a question or a problem it's likely someone else has had the same issue and the answer is out there on the internet. Catalina Direct is a great source for replacement parts.

I would not worry about the swing keel. It's a good, strong design and is responsible for a lot of the popularity of the boat.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Have you considered the O'Day 25' swing keel ? There are 2 of them at the Nyack Boat Club, one of them races. It is also trailer-able. The fixed keel version would make trailering more of a challenge (eg, deep ramps).
Show up at NBC at 5pm on a Wednesday as skippers gather and look for crew for races that start at 6:30pm. I'll most likely be there.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

CJ, I don't know the Seaward 23, so this is not a comparison. My niece, however, owned a Catalina 22 for about 5 years. It was a great boat. Plenty large for daysailing with 4 adults, and roomy enough for a couple overnight - thinking small. It sails well and is quite stiff in 15 knots of wind (reef at 15). I was always a bit concerned for her in wind over 20 knots. When sailed properly, reefed, etc. it is good in a blow, but I was happiest when she avoided that type of wind. This is common on this size of boat, especially one that is trailerable.


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## CJ_AEGIS (Jun 28, 2016)

Minnesail said:


> I don't know the Seawind 23, but I just looked it up at it's 3' longer and nearly a foot beamier than a Catalina 22.


That was both a draw and a negative of them to me.

That plus the wing keel is a little worrisome to me for getting it off a trailer. Most of the lake launches here are nice and deep so it wouldn't be an issue there. The river ones are pretty dicey at times due to the tides. At least one is very deep and drops off good but the others are a mixed bag. What I have seen of the ones on the Sound and around the Mount Desert Island area they seem to have similar issues. So that was one thing that made the Catalina seem more attractive. Besides the fact that they are everywhere... and have so much support.



> If nothing goes wrong it takes me a bit over an hour to take it out of the lake and get it on the trailer, and about two hours going the other direction. It's not something I'd want to do very often, although I'm sure the more you do it the quicker it goes. I've heard some people say it takes them 30 minutes on each end, but this sounds terribly optimistic to me.


Fits with what I have read. The long term plan would be to find a place to moor it at one of the clubs along the river but it comes down to limited spots and availability.



> A Catalina 22 is a great size for four people for a day sail or a meal. We've sailed with six adults a few times and that was getting crowded, but four adults works fine.


That would be our usual use. How did the boat itself handle six people? Seem to cause a weight issue or was it just more no elbow room?



> My wife and I spend the night sometimes. It's cozy, but fun. We put boards across the cabin and sleep crosswise on the boat. The v-berth is just for storage. Note: I am 5' 9" and she is shorter. If you are a tall people it might not work as well for you.


6'3" ;-)



> It's my first boat, and it's a great first boat because of all the support. There are over 15,000 of them so if you have a question or a problem it's likely someone else has had the same issue and the answer is out there on the internet. Catalina Direct is a great source for replacement parts.


Yeah it seems like most people glow about them and you can find just about anything to the tinest detail on them. Whereas the Seawards I find myself coming up short on a lot of information.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

The Capri 22 is a better sailing boat than either of the above mentioned, it does come in a wing keel variety, so suffers from your same drawbacks as the seaward 23... but the sailing characteristics are superior to either of the above. Also the cockpit for the Capri 22 is huge... the space below is tighter than the Cat 22, but the berths are large... 

Also consider a Precision 23, its a shoal/centerboard configuration. Lots of room below, probably more space than the Cat 22, or Capri 22, but about the same as the Seaward 23.

Oday 23, or Oday 222. Starwind 223 are some others that come to mind.

If you want deluxe durable, and classy, consider the Compac Yachts 23. kind of a cruiser/heavy slow boat though.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

The Catalina will be quicker and probably cheaper - as a first boat I would go with it - sails well to its rating if you ever get into racing.


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## CJ_AEGIS (Jun 28, 2016)

Calebdisangry said:


> Have you considered the O'Day 25' swing keel ? There are 2 of them at the Nyack Boat Club, one of them races. It is also trailer-able. The fixed keel version would make trailering more of a challenge (eg, deep ramps).
> Show up at NBC at 5pm on a Wednesday as skippers gather and look for crew for races that start at 6:30pm. I'll most likely be there.


Thanks for the reply! I really liked the O'Day 25 when I looked at it early on.

I also looked at the Catalina 25 with the swing kneel. I liked the Oday 25 more but figure it might be a bit too much boat. The Oday is 500 lbs lighter... but still figuring boat, trailer, and gear it would be pushing the limits of my tow vehicle. I have a V8 4x4 Dodge Dakota with the quad cab so towing is rated at 6,800 lbs or 7,150 lbs... Seen both numbers in Dodge publications on the truck... and can never get a straight answer on which to believe. I haven't done much sailing at all expect a few times in college so I'm still very much learning... but done a lot of towing and being right near or at towing capacity is something I try to avoid. The truck has nice rated towing capacity for something that isn't a 1/2 ton truck but I try to keep in mind that it isn't a full size in terms of the weight of the truck.

Also the ramps concern me on the Hudson for something that large. Newburgh has a nice deep ramp even at low tide but Beacon, Cornwall, Wappingers, and Poughkeepsie are all shallow and pretty nasty ramps expect at high tide. I don't think I would even trust Wappingers at high tide having seen it at low tide. Saw a boat tear off its inboard's skeg and chew the prop to pieces at Poughkeepsie a few weeks ago because they misjudged the tides and tried to load.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

The nice thing about the O'day 25' swing keel model is it draws around 2' with the board up. Much easier to launch & load than something with a 3'+ deep keel.

Towing capacity/safety is always a concern which you seem to firmly grasp. 

Have fun. Be safe.


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## CJ_AEGIS (Jun 28, 2016)

SHNOOL said:


> Also consider a Precision 23, its a shoal/centerboard configuration. Lots of room below, probably more space than the Cat 22, or Capri 22, but about the same as the Seaward 23.


Will keep an eye out for them though haven't seen many pop up in this area. That being said so far have been casual in the searching and been gathering information.



> If you want deluxe durable, and classy, consider the Compac Yachts 23. kind of a cruiser/heavy slow boat though.


Just looked them up. They look real nice! I would be a little concerned about getting it on and off a trailer on a regular basis though. Looks like it has a lot of keel.


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## CJ_AEGIS (Jun 28, 2016)

Calebdisangry said:


> The nice thing about the O'day 25' swing keel model is it draws around 2' with the board up. Much easier to launch & load than something with a 3'+ deep keel.
> 
> Towing capacity/safety is always a concern which you seem to firmly grasp.


The main thing that scared me away from the O'Day 25 is the towing. At 4,007 lbs for the boat, then 800 to 1000 lbs for the trailer, and then I see figures of add anywhere from 800 to 1,200 lbs for motor and gear. That comes out 6,200 lbs for the weight. Seem reasonable? Plus adding two adults, luggage, and a dog into the truck... leave a small margin to me. I think it would be within reason for towing local but would like to drag it down to the Sound or up to Maine. That seems like too much for the truck.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Lots of people have enjoyed owning a Catalina 22' as a first trailer sailor boat.
Nothin' wrong with that.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I can tell you from experience that you do not want to sail a Catalina 22 or a Seaward 23 with six people. You will be sitting shoulder to shoulder, with no room to haul on jib sheets or move much at all. Even with four people, everyone has to be ready to move and help with every tack. That's just the way it is. All of the boats mentioned here would be great starter trailer sailers. The swing keel or centerboard boats are better for trailering for obvious reasons. I've said it before on this and other forums, but it bears repeating: the Oday keel/centerboard design is better than the Catalina swing keel design. With the Oday, all of the ballast is in the stub keel; the centerboard is lightly weighted and easily controlled with one line that is lead to the cockpit. You always know the position of the board just by looking at the pendent line. With the Catalina, all of the boat's ballast is in the swinging keel; it does mean a lower COG, but you have all of the ballast hanging by one pin. And, because the keel weighs a lot, you need a crank to raise and lower the keel. This mechanism is one more thing that needs maintenance and can break. Not to mention that the only way you can know the position of the keel is to fully raise or lower it. There is no way to see where the keel is positioned without doing so.

One other factor in favor of the Oday's (I'm including the 22, 23 and 25 here): the head is behind a real door. If you want to use the head in the Catalina 22, you are out in the middle of the cabin with no privacy. Some people have rigged up a curtain, but that didn't cut it with my wife. Never, I repeat never underestimate the value of this feature to the ladies.

That all being said, the C22 is the most popular production cruising sailboat ever for good reason: a forgiving sailer with good performance and solid value. And Catalina is still in business, supporting the boats. Oday is long gone. I have owned a C22 and currently own an Oday 23. I just like the Oday better.

YMMV


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

I'd be happy to talk to you about a West Wight Potter 19... Only weights in at about 1300 lb with out board. Draft is 8 inches with the dagger board up, and about 30 inches with it down---it weighs about 400 lb steel. Sleeps four really good friends, has porta-pottie, and rudimentary galley. Very stable boat designed to heel no more than 10 degrees, but you can heel a lot more if you want to. Iv you heel too much it will pop up and head into the wind. Capsizes are very very rare and the only ones I ever heard of was where somebody forgot to put the board down.

Sails in more wind that you will tolerate(way more than a Catalina or a Seward), if you reef the sails. My main has two reef points, and the jib is 110% lapper that is roller furled. All lines run to the cockpit, and you can drop the sails without leaving the cockpit. 

But this might be too small for you, even if you can launch about anywhere, and pull it with a small SUV. I use a Pontiac Torrent(called a Chevy Equinox now) AWD that tows a max of 3500 lb.


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## CJ_AEGIS (Jun 28, 2016)

mstern said:


> I can tell you from experience that you do not want to sail a Catalina 22 or a Seaward 23 with six people. You will be sitting shoulder to shoulder, with no room to haul on jib sheets or move much at all. Even with four people, everyone has to be ready to move and help with every tack. That's just the way it is. All of the boats mentioned here would be great starter trailer sailers. The swing keel or centerboard boats are better for trailering for obvious reasons. I've said it before on this and other forums, but it bears repeating: the Oday keel/centerboard design is better than the Catalina swing keel design. With the Oday, all of the ballast is in the stub keel; the centerboard is lightly weighted and easily controlled with one line that is lead to the cockpit. You always know the position of the board just by looking at the pendent line. With the Catalina, all of the boat's ballast is in the swinging keel; it does mean a lower COG, but you have all of the ballast hanging by one pin. And, because the keel weighs a lot, you need a crank to raise and lower the keel. This mechanism is one more thing that needs maintenance and can break. Not to mention that the only way you can know the position of the keel is to fully raise or lower it. There is no way to see where the keel is positioned without doing so.
> 
> One other factor in favor of the Oday's (I'm including the 22, 23 and 25 here): the head is behind a real door. If you want to use the head in the Catalina 22, you are out in the middle of the cabin with no privacy. Some people have rigged up a curtain, but that didn't cut it with my wife. Never, I repeat never underestimate the value of this feature to the ladies.
> 
> ...


Thanks!

There is something to be argued for the KISS principle. So can see your logic on the swing keel and have seen plenty of threads on having to refit the swing keels on the Catalina.

No argument on the head on the two... though will say the lady looked at both boats... muttered slightly about the head arrangement on the Catalina.... and then declared the O'Day to be tubby looking... *shrug* so the two broke about even for her. So no objection there on her part. Though can easily see how it would be favored by many ladies for that reason. The Catalina 22s we have looked at are mostly the New Designs. So have contemplated the feasibility of removing the partial bulkhead and replacing it with an arrangement similar to the O'Day.

I guess my two questions would be...

1) How forgiving is the O'Day compared to the Catalina with the swing keel? That is going to matter a lot more to the lady because she isn't big on anything resembling a thrill ride.

2) How much harder is the O'Day to get on and off a trailer with the stub keel vs the Catalina with the smoother bottom?


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

mstern said:


> Not to mention that the only way you can know the position of the keel is to fully raise or lower it. There is no way to see where the keel is positioned without doing so.


This doesn't really matter on a C22...since there is no ballast other than the swing keel, it should be all the way down all the time when sailing. That means it can't be used for trim or be completely lifted downwind like a centerboard can, although it is a more efficient foil for upwind work and (as you said) has a lower COB, which does more with less weight, making the whole package lighter overall. I agree with the rest of what you said...lots of pros and cons, as with everything.



Zarathu said:


> Sails in more wind that you will tolerate(way more than a Catalina or a Seward)


All of these boats will tolerate way more wind than their owners. I routinely sailed my C22 in 30kts+ and occasionally in 40. It didn't explode. No trailerable boat needs to be sailed in more than that. Especially by inexperienced sailors.



CJ_AEGIS said:


> So have contemplated the feasibility of removing the partial bulkhead and replacing it with an arrangement similar to the O'Day.


I don't think there's room. With the bulkhead where it is, the door to the v-berth would be tiny, and there'd be no room to move around in there if you could ever close it. Moving the entire bulkhead aft would be an enormous undertaking and would have structural implications that I doubt are worth contemplating on a C22.

I loved my C22. I think they're great boats to learn on. The keel is a legitimate point of concern, but they made _thousands_ of them and they're not falling off left and right. It's a good design for what it's intended to do, with the inevitable trade-offs. In my opinion, the condition is more important than the design.

In general, it sounds to me like you're considering the right sorts of things. There are tons of options in the 19-23' range (although very few of them are comfortable for 6 people), and ultimately it will come down to what you can find locally, what condition it's in, and how much they want for it. I don't think you could go wildly wrong with any of the boats that have been mentioned.


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## CJ_AEGIS (Jun 28, 2016)

chip said:


> I don't think there's room. With the bulkhead where it is, the door to the v-berth would be tiny, and there'd be no room to move around in there if you could ever close it. Moving the entire bulkhead aft would be an enormous undertaking and would have structural implications that I doubt are worth contemplating on a C22.


I have seen it done on one. The bulkhead was kept in same location but the door was a slider rather than swing door. The quality of the work was only fair but the concept seemed executable. I agree that I don't think you could fit a swinging door in the location and have it work. It would be a tight space but it doesn't seem like it would be impossible. The hardest thing would probably be placing in the new pieces. It is something floating in the back of my head but need to look at what it would entail better. Plus see how it would impact ventilation.



> The keel is a legitimate point of concern, but they made _thousands_ of them and they're not falling off left and right. It's a good design for what it's intended to do, with the inevitable trade-offs. In my opinion, the condition is more important than the design.


Of all the ones I have seen for sale... only one was lacking the keel because it had fallen off.... many of them seem to be refit with the CatalinaDirect keel kit so it seems like something that people are aware of and took preventive steps on for many boats.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Hi Aegis-
To some extent the answer is in what tow vehicle you have. The C22 can be towed with a big car, or in our case - a V6 Minivan. You will need a truck for the Precision. Also, my experience is that a wing keel is slower. 

I have sailed our C22 on the Hudson for 5 years now. We also take her to Lake George, Long Island sound and as far away as Wickford Rhode Island. Honestly I cannot think of a boat better suited for that variety of trips. Ours is in the Hudson right now but we have 2 weeks reserved in August to camp on an island in Lake George. 

You will want a boarding ladder. Our Catalina came with a great 4 step flip down ladder mounted on the transom. Great for swimming. Also I got one with the nice solid blue interior cushions. Sounds minor but I don't like the 1970's plaid. 



C22 is not that fast, but okay - a little too small for sleeping,Fairly stable. It's not a tank, its light and basic but it is enough boat that you feel safe, in a predictable way. The bridge across the cockpit is high enough - scuppers right underneath. The scuppers are too small but we have never had a problem. trailering sucks, I hate it and I hate putting the mast up and rigging. It is always tough. 


Prices are cheap!


There is a Precision 23 at my boat yard that hasn't moved in years and would probably be given to you, looks rugged...but I wouldn't want to trailer it, its a beast.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

CJ_AEGIS said:


> I guess my two questions would be...
> 
> 1) How forgiving is the O'Day compared to the Catalina with the swing keel? That is going to matter a lot more to the lady because she isn't big on anything resembling a thrill ride.
> 
> 2) How much harder is the O'Day to get on and off a trailer with the stub keel vs the Catalina with the smoother bottom?


I've found them to be fairly equal in their forgiving qualities; they are both equally comfortable in winds up to 15 knots. Somewhat experienced sailors will be ok up to 20 knots. Above 20 knots, the ride gets wet and uncomfortable. I don't see a big difference between the two in ride or comfort, except, I found that when sailing at more acute heeling angle, the Catalina rudder loses it's bite sooner than the Oday, and will round up into the wind whether you want it to or not. some people view this as a safety feature, some as an annoyance. Your call.

I've never trailered either, but my guess is that the Catalina is marginally easier to launch. But even the Catalina's keel doesn't retract into the hull completely; there is a still a "fin" along the bottom of the hull even when fully retracted.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I had a Jaguar 22 which is the UK clone of the Catalina 22. It was an excellent first 'big' boat. I trailed mine all over the UK and down to the Med.

two things.

Launching and recovering a swing keel boat like the C 22 will be a great deal easier than anything with a fixed wing keel. This would be the key decision point for me. In the UK people with fixed keel boats of similar size usually needed a crane.

If you have a choice of boats and one has a 4 wheel trailer pick the 4 wheeler. I managed with the two wheel trailer but had an exceptionally good tow car. [Citroen CX]

The good times I had with my jag 22 lead up to me retiring onto a 44 ft cutter in the Caribbean.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Ok, if the Oday 25 is even a consideration then my own boat an S2 7.9 would be better than everything else mentioned.
It's heavy built.
It draws only 18" of water (super easy to launch)
it's self righting with the centerboard up (yes provable)
it draws a whopping 5' centerboard down, so it goes upwind like mad
the cockpit is HUGE
comes in inboard, and outboard versions
has lots of room below, with a large V berth
5'8" headroom below
a proper space for a head.

Downside, it weighs in 4700lbs boat/sails/rigging and motor. Add about 1000 for trailer and maybe another 500ish for gear? 6200lbs? all up?

Trailers nicely though (nice and low on the road).

I would not want to rig/derig the boat even for long weekends though, but then most of these others I'd put in that category too.

The S2 7.9 is also probably the most robustly built of the list so far mentioned, and frankly the best sailing, and fastest.
Although if the 7.9 is too big, consider the 6.9 (everything good about the 7.9 in a smaller package, except it isn't self righting board up).


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

CJ_AEGIS said:


> I have seen it done on one. The bulkhead was kept in same location but the door was a slider rather than swing door. The quality of the work was only fair but the concept seemed executable. I agree that I don't think you could fit a swinging door in the location and have it work. It would be a tight space but it doesn't seem like it would be impossible. The hardest thing would probably be placing in the new pieces. It is something floating in the back of my head but need to look at what it would entail better. Plus see how it would impact ventilation.


It may be technically possible, and if you wanted a small, simple sailboat for a long time, it might be worth figuring out how to add a sliding door to the ~8 sq feet of bulkhead in a C22, but you said in your original post that you wanted to learn how to sail and possibly move up to something bigger down the road. If that's the goal, I suggest just getting something that meets your needs and sailing the hell out of it now. You'll get farther faster by actually sailing than you will wasting time and money renovating something that doesn't really work for you, in my opinion.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

CJ, STOP! Take 5. 
Notice how you are already thinking larger than you were at the beginning of this discussion? 

First consider getting some real time on and how to sail instruction on sailboats

20 22 ft boats are about the max for 2 people raising a mast and rigging the boat and still be in the water in a couple of hours. 

Larger boats as you are finding out quickly get heavy cumbersome and harder to load onto the trailer. 
Looking for a stand up head already suggests you the couple will not be happy very long on a boat with a portapotty cooler, and crawl or stoop headroom.

Well set up sailboat trailers have keel guide boards tongue extension even a large wheel instead of the little skid jack. On tidal waters ALWAYS launch on a RISING TIDE! 

Fact: the larger a trailered or car top boat is... the less it will be used. add to that, the larger the rigging is on a sailboat is the more quickly it gets old. 

Next chapter  The gin pole! And other ways to rig a boat alone, BECAUSE it quickly becomes a crew of one doing it!


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Don't really need heavier or more robust for the Hudson river or Lake George. Most common danger is a lack of wind!!


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## sesmith (Jan 24, 2013)

We have a Seaward 25, so I AM a bit biased.  That said, the Catalina 22 is a very popular boat up here in the Fingerlakes area. I have never sailed on one, but my dock neighbor had one and liked it quite a lot. Fit and finish on the Seaward 23 will be better. Look at the stainless opening ports, for instance. The Catalina will have a cored deck (someone correct me if I'm wrong here), so do your due diligence in inspecting the deck and cockpit floor. Seaward uses no wood core in theirs. The Catalina will likely sail faster up wind, but my guess is that the Seaward will feel more stable when the wind pipes up. You really should spend some time aboard both boats. You may find the Seaward roomier and better suited for overnighting on, but I have only sailed on a Seaward 23 once, and haven't seen it side by side with a Catalina 22. If you were looking at larger trailerable cruising boats, I would say, hands down, that a Seaward 25 is one of the best choices out there (but like I said originally, I'm biased).

I also have a Dodge Dakota (4.7L) V8. Fine for towing either of the above boats, undersized for something the size of a Seaward 25, larger Oday, etc. That said, the Dakota is one tough truck. I used to use it to haul my Seaward 25 to Lake Ontario, Champlain, and up to Lake Huron's North Channel. I recently replaced it with an Expediton...much better suited to the job.

Other boats that no one has mentioned so far...the water balasted Hunter boats. The Hunter 23.5 (or newer 240), and the larger Hunter 260, all could be towed with your Dakota. We used to have a Hunter 23.5, and have sailed it up on Lake Champlain. It would also be a great boat to learn on... more tender than the Seaward, but not any worse than the Catalina 22. There are several Hunter 260's that have sailed with us up on the North Channel, and do fine there. Lots of room in them.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I think I saw the same write-up on adding a sliding door in front of the v-berth, and it was something I thought I was going to want to do to mine.

But after sailing with it for a year, nah. Not needed. It's not like we're out at sea for a week at a time, for the few times the potty is needed the curtain works fine. And let's be frank, on a boat this size even a door isn't going to offer much privacy. You'd still want to use the shore toilet when possible. 


Regarding sleeping size and your 6' 3" vs my 5' 9" — you might want to look for the newer ones. I think in 1985 they rearranged the interior, and in 1995 they actually made the boat bigger. Those newer ones would probably work better for you than my 1974.


And lastly, yeah, my boat is 42 years old. And the swing keel mechanism is in great shape. I lifted it this year and dropped the keel and it was nearly perfect. There was a slight bit of wear on the pin, more of a polished spot really, and just some slight wearing in the hole in the keel. The keel itself was a mess of rust and old paint, but the swing mechanism was great. From my research the problem keels seem to be those that live on a saltwater mooring. I don't know my boat's whole history, but for the last decade or so it's been on a freshwater mooring for five months out of the year and that doesn't seem to have hurt it any. It doesn't have either the new assembly or the keel spacers that Catalina Direct sells.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

You will also need things that you din't think you would need when you bought it. Expect to pay an additional $3000 for stuff you never thought you would need:

1. You will need a motor of some kind. While its a horrid thing to say, the reality is that sailing is often just slow motorboating: motoring out of the slip or mooring to where there is air, motoring back to the slip or mooring from air, motoring when the air stops altogether, motoring to some place fast and directing to get away from a storm, motoring when you don't have time to tack to get to some place which is directly into the wind, etc.

Without a motor, you will eventually get into some deep doo-doo.

I would recommend a extra long shaft(25 inch) 6 hp Tohatsu. The extra long shaft will allow you to go forward or even have two people forward without taking the impeller out of the water, and blowing up your engine, and it will keep it deep enough to, a) not be affect by chop, and b) get it below the stern, making backing up much more effective.

Don't run ethanol gas in it or you will eventually be very very unhappy, and do run it with a double dose of Blue marine Stabil. 

2. You will need clothing and gear at the least, coat and pants rain gear, gloves, may be boots. Depending on the conditions you sail, you may need a drysuit. Drysuits cost $650, and for most sailing are not necessary, but in you should fall in, or if you want to sail late or early in the season, or if the weather gets bad, they can be literally a life-saver.

3. There will be repairs you need to make and additions. For example, if you get tired of trailoring(my wife did very very early) and you end up mooring, the plastic cleat on the bow will not longer work and you will need to put in a real 6 inch SS cleat through the deck. For Mooring you will want your own 6 foot dyneema pendant($137) to connect to whatever the mooring has.

You may need to add more cleats mid ships, or to handle lines going into the cockpit. I needed to add a couple of bow eyes so that I could connect the dinghy directly to the starboard side and not worry about it slipping away while I was trying to board.

The list is almost endless. But believe me that even in a small boat, that winters in your yard, there will be expenses you never thought of. Our yacht club membership is $500. Where I am you don't rent a mooring, you buy it. And so this year I had to pay the guy who inspects all the moorings for the town $400 to replace the chain and connections to the 2500 lb block of granite, since the half inch galvanized chain was no longer galvanized and had worn to less than 1/4 inch in some places. 

The smaller the boat you buy, the less additional expenses you will have each year.


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## sesmith (Jan 24, 2013)

That does it. The sailing libido has been killed :-(

Too true about the size though. I think their's a mathamatical formula that squares the cost with increased "foot-itis".

Gotta spend your hard earned cash somewhere...might as well be sailing.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I had a hunter 23 It was touted as a trailer Sailer but it was around two thousand pounds The Mast was heavy the boat sat high on the trailer I had it for 11 months and sold it. was initially looking for a 35 foot boat about 12 years ago,


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## sesmith (Jan 24, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> I had a hunter 23 It was touted as a trailer Sailer but it was around two thousand pounds The Mast was heavy the boat sat high on the trailer I had it for 11 months and sold it. was initially looking for a 35 foot boat about 12 years ago,


Yea, the 23 would not be my idea of a trailerable boat. The 23.5 /240 and 260 are all swing keels and sit low on the trailer. Easy to launch. Seaward 23 isn't bad either.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

deniseO30 said:


> I had a hunter 23 It was touted as a trailer Sailer but it was around two thousand pounds The Mast was heavy the boat sat high on the trailer I had it for 11 months and sold it. was initially looking for a 35 foot boat about 12 years ago,


Water is corrosive, and out to get you. Saltwater makes fresh water look like a dream.

Last year I was only planning on being in the water for 2 months, and I made the mistake of using some fittings that were galvanized. I figured that with such a short time, and no direct contact with the water, it wouldn't be a problem. Two months later I had to cut/drill them off. Its either fiberglass or aluminum or brass or stainless. Everything else gets eaten away sooner or later. And even those do too.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

SHNOOL said:


> The Capri 22 is a better sailing boat than either of the above mentioned, it does come in a wing keel variety, so suffers from your same drawbacks as the seaward 23... but the sailing characteristics are superior to either of the above. he space below is tighter than the Cat 22, but the berths are large...
> .


Not really. I rent a Capri wing keel and its a tad slower than my Mark1 swing keel. I like the Capri but at least in wind keel version its not faster. There isn't a big difference but its slower upwind and - downwind I can actually retract my keel. I do like the bigger cockpit in the Capri but I like my dinette table and seats in my Mark 1.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Sal Paradise said:


> Not really. I rent a Capri wing keel and its a tad slower than my Mark1 swing keel. I like the Capri but at least in wind keel version its not faster. There isn't a big difference but its slower upwind and - downwind I can actually retract my keel. I do like the bigger cockpit in the Capri but I like my dinette table and seats in my Mark 1.


Having owned the wing Keel model Capri, and raced against several Cat 22s... I can honestly say the Cat 22 should not be in the same time zone as the Cat 22.
Best Portsmouth rating Cat 22 is 94.7...
Worst Portsmouth rating for a Capri 22 is 90.8
96 versus 90.1 for Force 5 winds, so that answers as the winds are up question. I know there are a LOT of Cat 22 owners out there, and I NEVER said it was a bad boat, but I'll swear all day the Capri 22 is a better sailor. If you have to buy the Cat 22, the fixed fin keel model is the one to own though. Same with the Capri 22 for that matter.

So either a lot of handicapped averages are wrong, or your analogy isn't a real scientific one.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

SHNOOL said:


> Having owned the wing Keel model Capri, and raced against several Cat 22s... I can honestly say the Cat 22 should not be in the same time zone as the Cat 22.
> Best Portsmouth rating Cat 22 is 94.7...
> Worst Portsmouth rating for a Capri 22 is 90.8
> 96 versus 90.1 for Force 5 winds, so that answers as the winds are up question. I know there are a LOT of Cat 22 owners out there, and I NEVER said it was a bad boat, but I'll swear all day the Capri 22 is a better sailor. If you have to buy the Cat 22, the fixed fin keel model is the one to own though. Same with the Capri 22 for that matter.
> ...


Yeah. They're not close. Here are the PHRF NE base handicaps:

Capri 22 WK: 213
Catalina 22: 276

Over a minute a mile difference.

The Capri is a race boat. It's way sportier than the Catalina. The Catalina is cruiser. Its interior is way more comfortable and it's somewhat easier to tow (at least one with a swing keel).

Not sure what's wrong with the Capri you rented, Sal. Maybe the bottom is fouled or the sails are shot or it's not set up correctly or something, but a property tuned Capri will destroy a Catalina on performance.

Not to take anything away from the Catalina 22...I loved mine, and sailed her hard. (Please see: Wall of Shame | Sailing Fortuitous )

Both great boats for what they do.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Well I sailed both and I disagree. On paper maybe. But PRF Number are not the whole story. Reading on the Catalina direct forums consensus seems to be the wing keel is slower. Some say the wing keel PRF number is 260. https://www.catalinadirect.com/forums/fr_topic.cfm?topic_id=377

The Capri is more a racer because it has a fractional rig. If the wind gets too strong you can bend the mast. In THAT sense it is a racer and the Mark 1 is a cruiser. The MK1 is a mast head rig. In high winds, I bet the Capri shows its stuff. I was mostly out on it in light winds and it was family sailing so we got her sailing and then sat around talking, not racing.

Now on my own boat I have a bunch of different head sails and I have a new main sail. Same light wind day - I put a bigger light weight head sail on - and especially going up wind, my old Mark 1 is faster than that Capri. The Mk1 boats also vary in speed from boat to boat, this is well known - mine might be a "fast" one. Relative to another one. Now a J 22 in my marina makes my boat look like its standing still.

The rental place argued with me as well but GPS don't lie. All I can say is I was hoping for all this extra speed and it was on balance, pretty much the same.Again it was a wing keel as well.

BTW - I really have nothing invested in the idea that the C22 is as fast or slow as any other boat including a Capira... I'm sure in the world of 22 footers its on the slower end. This was just my real world experience with the 2 boats. YMMV

I also disagree that the fixed keel boat is the one to own. Selection of a swing keel is about trailering, which the OP brought up. If I went fixed, there might be other boats to look at.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Sal Paradise said:


> Well I sailed both and I disagree. On paper maybe. But PRF Number are not the whole story.


Yeah, I agree. There is a Rhodes 19 on my lake that is in every way a faster boat than my Catalina 22. It has a better PHRF. It has newer sails. And its skipper is better than me. That boat sails circles around me, sometimes literally.

But on a very low wind days he's stuck with a tiny headsail on his fractional rig, whereas I can throw up a big giant headsail. On those days I can can beat him.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

When two different rating systems rate one boat significantly faster than another, based on tons of real world races in all sorts of conditions, I am inclined to think that the faster rated boat is generally faster.

Obviously some boats are better in certain conditions and some skippers are better than others, but one guy renting a boat and finding it slow does not mean that the class is slow. Capri 22s are empirically faster than Catalina 22s on average.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

You are looking at Fin Keel numbers. There is Much debate about how much to handicap the wing keel but its considered slow.


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## Pendragon35 (Jun 26, 2014)

I can only speak to sailing the Catalina 22 as a first boat. It was my first "big" boat, the bigges thing I'd sailed before was a Lightning. I bought a 1974 Cat 22 in Seattle in 1976, kept it at a variety of docks and mostly sailed it out of a marina near the locks on Port Madison and the water between Shilshole and Bainbridge Island. I didn't know how to reef, dock or use an engine when I boubht that oat and my wife had never been sailing. We learned to anchor on the way to the San Juan islands; we learned to reef from a book and then made good on the lesson the first time the winds went over 10 knots. 

Catalina 22 is what I recommend for new sailing couples because they are so forgiving. If you go out and the wind kicks up and you are sorting out reefing or you didn't because you ARE new and your wife is getting that OMG look...the boat will just round up and refuse to go. She will save you from you, until you get better. 

I'm sure there are other, better built, faster, snazzier boats in the size range; personally? I love the Cape Dory Typhoons. But this isn't about me: this is about you. The Catalina 22 has stayed popular because while it isn't the best at any thing, it's good at everything, good enough to let you learn more or less safely, good enough to keep you interested, good enough to let you see what sailng can be.

If that's racing...you'll sell her and get a race boat. If it's cruising, you'll get something fitted to where you want to cruise. If it's gunkholing, maybe something for that. But I bet everyone of us here, regardless of what we now sail, smiles when we see a Catalina 22 and mention happily: "I started out on one of those..." 

I have an Alberg 35 now, love it, wouldn't trade it for anything. But she's a ponderous, stately lady and somedays, I miss that little CAtalina. Simple fun.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

Sal Paradise said:


> You are looking at Fin Keel numbers. There is Much debate about how much to handicap the wing keel but its considered slow.


No, I am not looking at fin keel numbers. When I wrote "Capri 22 WK" the WK stood for wing keel.

You're right that the fin is faster than the wing, but all Capri 22 configurations are faster than Catalina 22s by a wide margin.

CAPRI 22 (fin): 201
CAPRI 22 TM (tall mast): 195
CAPRI 22 WK (wing keel): 213

vs

CATALINA 22 (swing): 276
CATALINA 22 NONSPIN: 282
CATALINA 22-2 WK (wing keel): 282

Again, these are PHRF New England base handicaps. They vary a little by region, but the Capris are always faster.

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks Chip.

- the majority of my day sails are out and back maybe 15 miles total. Probably typical of Catalina day sails. Those are like 3.5/ 4 hour trips. So, it would be hard for me to notice that I got back 15 minutes sooner ( or maybe only 7.5 minutes because its out and back) - sure wasn't noticable.

Just as important - more so actually - I think the Capri looks better, I like the smaller cabin it looks more modern and even a little salty. Also there is more deck space to walk around the shrouds and get up front. One of the flaws of a C22 is the tiny or almost no existent side deck space to go forward. I'd trade my C22 for a Capri for those reasons alone.

heere is one for sale - looks like it will be very tough to launch.

http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/5622743303.html


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Pendragon35 said:


> I have an Alberg 35 now, love it, wouldn't trade it for anything. But she's a ponderous, stately lady and somedays, I miss that little CAtalina. Simple fun.


Curious, where do you sail the Alberg?


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## Sailforfun (Jun 17, 2016)

Although not in your intended range, we have enjoyed our Flying Scot for the past 5 years. It is very good for learning, holds 3-4 folks, but is strictly for day sailing. We dry sail ours and can arrive at a ramp and have it in the water ready to go in 40 minutes without rushing.

It is fast for light winds and with just the main we enjoy strong, gusty wind days. At 19 feet it fits in our garage and is easy to tow.

It has helped my wife gain confidence and we are now looking into a larger trailer sailer. We know what trailer sailing is about without a big initial investment or really any ongoing costs. We don't have a motor so we don't even have annual registration here in Vermont. 

We have sailed ours in Lake Champlain, many different Vermont lakes, and Lake Sunapee in NH. I pay close attention to the weather and know our limits. We have also raised our 4 year old daughter sailing with us since she was 1. I have also taught my wife and daughter the basics of sailing so we all have enjoyed it.

Again not what you were thinking but we have enjoyed ours. YMMV!


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## CJ_AEGIS (Jun 28, 2016)

SHNOOL said:


> The S2 7.9 is also probably the most robustly built of the list so far mentioned, and frankly the best sailing, and fastest.
> Although if the 7.9 is too big, consider the 6.9 (everything good about the 7.9 in a smaller package, except it isn't self righting board up).


Thanks for the suggestion! Though it has the same issue as the O'Day just a hair too much boat for the tow vehicle in highway conditions. Will definitely read up more on the S2 6.9 though.



chip said:


> It may be technically possible, and if you wanted a small, simple sailboat for a long time, it might be worth figuring out how to add a sliding door to the ~8 sq feet of bulkhead in a C22, but you said in your original post that you wanted to learn how to sail and possibly move up to something bigger down the road. If that's the goal, I suggest just getting something that meets your needs and sailing the hell out of it now. You'll get farther faster by actually sailing than you will wasting time and money renovating something that doesn't really work for you, in my opinion.


It definitely would not be an out of the starting gate project. We would have to of decided that we really a) tolerate getting it on and off the trailer and b) love the boat enough to want to hold on to it when we upgrade to something bigger that you can't reasonably trailer. There is something appealing to always having the option of towing a boat to a faraway location far quicker than you can ever sail to the same spot. That being said upkeep of two and having one boat sitting in the yard always&#8230; so we shall see. Just nice to have the option of tweaking it a little to fit our needs.



deniseO30 said:


> CJ, STOP! Take 5.
> Notice how you are already thinking larger than you were at the beginning of this discussion?


Well taking suggestions more like. ;-) The 20 to 23 foot boats are mostly winning for the virtues that you mention&#8230;. Ease of trailering, easier to raise the mast, and to be able to do it in a reasonable amount of time. On the other hand I never object to suggestions from others in the know since who knows they might suggest something I never considered. 


> Denise: Looking for a stand up head already suggests you the couple will not be happy very long on a boat with a portapotty cooler, and crawl or stoop headroom.


Stand up anything on a boat less than 35 feet is something that I don't expect.  Just a little too tall for that.



sesmith said:


> I also have a Dodge Dakota (4.7L) V8. Fine for towing either of the above boats, undersized for something the size of a Seaward 25, larger Oday, etc. That said, the Dakota is one tough truck. I used to use it to haul my Seaward 25 to Lake Ontario, Champlain, and up to Lake Huron's North Channel. I recently replaced it with an Expediton...much better suited to the job.


Yeah the Dakota has been a great truck and to me hovers somewhere right below a half ton truck&#8230; it just lacks the extra 500 to 1000 lbs of curbweight that would let it control the same load as a half ton.



Minnesail said:


> Regarding sleeping size and your 6' 3" vs my 5' 9" - you might want to look for the newer ones. I think in 1985 they rearranged the interior, and in 1995 they actually made the boat bigger. Those newer ones would probably work better for you than my 1974.


We have been looking more toward the 1986 to 1995s for the very reason that you mentioned. The interior arrangements seem somewhat nicer. 


Pendragon35 said:


> Catalina 22 is what I recommend for new sailing couples because they are so forgiving. If you go out and the wind kicks up and you are sorting out reefing or you didn't because you ARE new and your wife is getting that OMG look...the boat will just round up and refuse to go. She will save you from you, until you get better.


Yeah overall the Catalina 22 was ahead before I made this post and the thread has just further reinforced that sentiment. Just nice to hear others not say "no stop&#8230; don't do that that&#8230; no&#8230;." 


> I have an Alberg 35 now, love it, wouldn't trade it for anything. But she's a ponderous, stately lady and somedays, I miss that little CAtalina. Simple fun.


In our nosing around regarding we will get this now but what would we possibly consider someday&#8230; the Alberg was one that came up as appealing to our current sentiments&#8230; plus the headroom changed nice. Though who knows if it will remain that way in a few years.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

A couple Catalina 22 updates. I just got back from a week away trailering mine. 

It still seems a bit large for me to comfortably trailer. This probably comes from lack of experience. I have not spent a lot of time towing things and five lanes of I-94 Independence Day traffic was not something I considered fun.

This was only my sixth time moving the boat. I timed myself rigging and de-rigging. It took me an hour to tear the boat down and an hour and fifteen minutes to set it back up. That's the time from pulling up with the truck to heading out with both sails up. I have a stack pack and lazy jacks which complicate the rigging a little. Both times are me with one helper, but me doing most of the work.

A sailboat was a stranger in a strange land up there. All the resort facilities were geared for speedboats and pontoons. The boat ramp was extremely shallow and we were given lifts not slips. I just, just fit in the lift. I had to pull in and out of the lift alone, because any passengers made us bottom out.

One calm day we sailed with eleven people! That was four little kids up on the bow playing rhyming clapping games, one teenager napping in the cabin, and six adults in the cockpit. Mostly we sailed with four to six people on board. A good time was had by all.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Just to disagree with myself... just raced our 3rd in the series... 
I got beat (my S2 7.9) by a Catalina 22! and a Catalina 25! Of course this was all on corrected time. They were all pretty far behind in real time.
Actually there is a pretty good reason for it the way the finishes were, but I won't go into it.

I was just happy to keep the other (2) S2 7.9s behind me for the race (and a J24)... I was chomping at the heels of a B25 though (well sailed with brandy new North 3Di sails too)!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Minnesail said:


> One calm day we sailed with eleven people! That was four little kids up on the bow playing rhyming clapping games, one teenager napping in the cabin, and six adults in the cockpit. Mostly we sailed with four to six people on board. A good time was had by all.


Eleven people on a C22 is just too many. I'm not sure if that exceeds the design max on that boat, but it certainly is just too many people to safely deal with any contingencies. I don't care how small some of the passengers are; in fact, I think their general inability to help in an emergency makes them more of a liability than an equivalent adult.

I'm glad that everyone had a good time, but IMHO, before you let that many people on your boat again, you should ask yourself what you would do if you had to do an emergency tack with four children on the foredeck, and six adults crammed into the cockpit.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

mstern said:


> Eleven people on a C22 is just too many.


Awwww gee mom, I'm sorry, I won't do it again 



mstern said:


> you should ask yourself what you would do if you had to do an emergency tack with four children on the foredeck


Well, we were going between 1 and 2 knots on glassy water. The headsail was a nylon 170 drifter. An emergency tack at that speed would take about thirty seconds, so I'd probably just yell up "Hey, could you sort of push that sail over to the other side like you did before?"

We did have a minor spot of trouble: The small children got bored stiff. My brother-in-law pulled alongside in a speed boat and and the kids took the fast way back.

Considering they spent the rest of the time on a tube being whipped around behind a speedboat at 25mph, sitting on the bow of a sailboat going 2 knots was probably the safest thing the kids did all week.


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## amnotr2 (Jul 15, 2016)

I have had a Seaward 24 for 3 years now. This was their only swing keel boat. 2'up/6'down. 3600 lb boat. Trails well at highway speed. As far as leaks...only from the top and from non stock installs from the previous owner(rope clutches/hatch forward). This model would fit the bill but set up and take down is hard because of the mast wt. I have a raising system that i have yet to use. My yard in Lake George ny has a crane. 
Seawards are a lot of boat. Durable is the word. We go out when most are coming in! Not a good boat in really light air. The swing keel lets us anchor in quiet coves that keel boats can not reach. The other reason we wanted to K/cb was that the ballast is low and there is no trunk in the cabin. I have dents in my shins from an oday..
I would suggest you look very close at the swing keel boats that carry their ballast in the swing section. IF the lowering mechanism lets go the winch handle will break bones! 
We have had(in order: oday 19,beneteau 23, hunter 260, hunter 23Wb, Seaward 24) many boats. The wife said "bathroom door!" I hated the water ballast, too tender at the dock and not enough for rough water. If you want a lady on your boat make sure it has a door for the privy. 
Good luck in the hunt for the purrrrfect boat. R


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I reread most of the advice of this thread, and I figure if the OP follows it...
they'll own a 3500 dually diesel.
Tow the boat out to the hudson
The boat will be a Catalina 22 swing keel
the boat will sit below the waterline due to all the equipment aboard, including a Dry suit
Then will enter all the local races and expect to win with the Cat 22!

My personal opinion is the OP is more qualified to know what they want/need than we are... that includes myself.

Just go sailing, and have fun! Start on inland waters and work your way up


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