# New sailors from PA/NJ



## DreamWeaver (Feb 12, 2017)

Hi, all. My wife and I just got certified ASA 101 in Key West. We then sailed two more days down there with our instructor on the boat. I sailed as a young kid with my dad, but it's been a long time, so I had to relearn most things.

We live in PA, but have a place in Beach Haven on Long Beach Island, NJ. 

We're now trying to decide whether to buy a sailboat this season and, if so, what size/features. Or, whether to join a sail club either in/around Philly or down the shore, so we can get more experience as crew this coming season before deciding on a boat for next season to dock in Beach Haven.

We're also weighing the options of docking at a marina or applying to a YC.

If anyone wants to throw some light on any of these considerations, please reply or send me a PM.

Thanks.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I was a member of Liberty Sailing Club for 15 years. It is a great place for new sailors to get lots of experience. It is a great deal because you don't need to own a boat. It is a not-for-profit sailing club.
Landing - Liberty Sailing Club

There is also an ASA sailing school in Riverside, NJ if you want more advanced training.



DreamWeaver said:


> Hi, all. My wife and I just got certified ASA 101 in Key West. We then sailed two more days down there with our instructor on the boat. I sailed as a young kid with my dad, but it's been a long time, so I had to relearn most things.
> 
> We live in PA, but have a place in Beach Haven on Long Beach Island, NJ.
> 
> ...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Yam has it right- No need to rush out and buy a boat. 

Lots of clubs have some sort of a shared boat program where you get checked out on a particular model and then you can reserve and sail a boat whenever you like. Often (but not always) these are smaller, open boats built for a day-sailing couple.


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## AJC506 (Nov 3, 2016)

There is also the Philadelphia Sailing Club, especially designed for people who don't have boats.
Based in Bala Cynwyd, many of the weekend charters are out of Rock Hall.

Home


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Hi and welcome to Sailnet . What kind of boats interest you guys ? Racer , cruiser , week ender , classic with lots of wood trim . Does it sound fun to spend the weekend on the boat in a marina and sail and sleep over ? Will you have any cruising destinations for a week or two stay ? Here is one of our favorite destinations Catalina Island Ca. The boat is a Catalina 32 .

photo cred Ms.westi


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

NJ back bays are a more enjoyable sailing location even the fairly shallow Little Egg Harbor, than the Delaware River.

If possible I would suggest contacting marinas close to Beach Haven, and getting a shoal draft or swing keel sailboat. Look for older boats and with some luck after a few years you may be able to sell for the same price that you paid.

if you have not already done so take a NJ boater safety course and get the required NJ Boat Safety Certificate.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

For $1000 you get all the sailing you want at Liberty Sailing Club. Philadelphia Sailing Club is good for big boat sailing but it sounds like this couple wants to build experience.



AJC506 said:


> There is also the Philadelphia Sailing Club, especially designed for people who don't have boats.
> Based in Bala Cynwyd, many of the weekend charters are out of Rock Hall.
> 
> Home


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## DreamWeaver (Feb 12, 2017)

Ulladh said:


> NJ back bays are a more enjoyable sailing location even the fairly shallow Little Egg Harbor, than the Delaware River.
> 
> If possible I would suggest contacting marinas close to Beach Haven, and getting a shoal draft or swing keel sailboat. Look for older boats and with some luck after a few years you may be able to sell for the same price that you paid.
> 
> if you have not already done so take a NJ boater safety course and get the required NJ Boat Safety Certificate.


Yes, this is what we've been leaning toward. I've been looking at shoal draft wing keel boats, which seem to be in greater supply than swing keels.

We're hoping to find an experienced sailor to serve as a quasi-instructor to help us get started on LEH.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Here's another possibility for you. The Tall Oaks Yacht Club sails out of Silver Cloud Marina on Forked River. They're about evenly split between racer's and cruisers. Some of the racers may be looking for crew.

Here's the link to their web site Tall Oaks Yacht Club


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

There are a couple of sailing schools around the bay, some with rentals. Here is one...
There are others you can find with a web search. 
Unfortunately Nelson's appears to no longer have a school since Sandy.

I have no experience with them, but I've always heard that when you bury a winged keel, you are really stuck!


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## DreamWeaver (Feb 12, 2017)

Setting aside the swing vs. wing debate for now, my wife and I are at odds over tiller vs. wheel. I prefer tiller, she wants wheel. Is this is a battle worth fighting? My reading indicates it's better to learn with a tiller.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

I've had both, I like both. 

I prefer a tiller on a small boat and a wheel on a larger boat. But that's just a preference. If I'm on the water I'm happy...


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

If you guys have a house on LBI and don't need to sleep aboard have you considered something smaller like a Catalina 22?

We sailed ours for a couple of years and sold her for more than we paid. It was a great little boat and you can keep her on a trailer in the winter. Having a slip for the summer makes it a lot easier to hop on and go sailing -- translation you'll sail a LOT more.

I mention the Catalina 22 because we had one and she was a great little boat, but there are lots of great boats around 22 feet that won't break the bank. $5-$6K gets you a boat that's in really great shape so you can worry about sailing and not boat repairs.

Our draft with a wing keel was around 2 1/2 feet.


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## DreamWeaver (Feb 12, 2017)

Interesting advice, Jim. How many adults can comfortably fit on the Cat 22? Will it not feel more tender than a 25? Our instructor suggested we err on the side of going larger, up to 27.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

JimMcGee said:


> Here's another possibility for you. The Tall Oaks Yacht Club sails out of Silver Cloud Marina on Forked River. They're about evenly split between racer's and cruisers. Some of the racers may be looking for crew.


The Windjammers Sailing Club is a similar club, one creek north on Cedar Creek. Plus, the Windjammers have won the Windjammer/Tall Oaks Challenge Race several years in a row 

Cedar Creek Sailing Center also has the Barnegat Bay Sailing School that does lessons, charters, and rentals. They used to do some sort of "learn on your own boat" lessons, but I'm not sure if they go to Little Egg Harbor. Both TOYC and WJSC are up on Barnegat Bay proper, north of the inlet.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

chip said:


> The Windjammers Sailing Club is a similar club, one creek north on Cedar Creek. Plus, the Windjammers have won the Windjammer/Tall Oaks Challenge Race several years in a row
> 
> Cedar Creek Sailing Center also has the Barnegat Bay Sailing School that does lessons, charters, and rentals. They used to do some sort of "learn on your own boat" lessons, but I'm not sure if they go to Little Egg Harbor. Both TOYC and WJSC are up on Barnegat Bay proper, north of the inlet.


Chip, I met a few of the Windjammer's at a BBQ a few years back. Nice folks. But I thought they were up around Tom's River for some reason, even Forked River is a pretty good run from LBI with summer traffic.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

DreamWeaver said:


> Interesting advice, Jim. How many adults can comfortably fit on the Cat 22? Will it not feel more tender than a 25? Our instructor suggested we err on the side of going larger, up to 27.


DreamWeaver, I haven't sailed on the Catalina 25 so I'm not sure. Our Cat 22 had a wing keel and I didn't find her to be overly tender. We had a blast sailing that boat on the Delaware out of Winters marina. You could do four adults on board and have plenty of room, even more room sailing with kids.

We had a jib furler and I definitely prefered it to going on the foredeck in rough water. It's about a $500 option from Catalina Direct and I'd recommend it on the Bay. The power boat wakes on a Saturday afternoon can kick up a chop.

BTW, check out their web site Catalina Direct:. If you do get a Catalina they're a great source for gear.

Best of luck,
Jim


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## DreamWeaver (Feb 12, 2017)

As for Little Egg Harbor, I spoke with someone who lives on it and says keelboats are frowned upon, and that I should be looking at 16-18' cats. He says there are too many sandbars to worry about.

Before I migrate over to the forum's cat threads, can anyone either echo that sentiment, or provide any counterpoint? 

I've never been on a cat. It's certainly not what I had in mind after rediscovering sailing, but maybe now is the time to learn how to cruise, and eventually even race, one.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

DreamWeaver said:


> As for Little Egg Harbor, I spoke with someone who lives on it and says keelboats are frowned upon, and that I should be looking at 16-18' cats. He says there are too many sandbars to worry about.
> 
> Before I migrate over to the forum's cat threads, can anyone either echo that sentiment, or provide any counterpoint?
> 
> I've never been on a cat. It's certainly not what I had in mind after rediscovering sailing, but maybe now is the time to learn how to cruise, and eventually even race, one.


It's really up to you and what you want to do.

1) I don't know about sandbars...there's nothing over there uncharted except in the inlet, and I don't suggest taking any sailboat through that inlet until you've got a lot more experience. You can look at the chart and see where a boat of any draft can or can't go.

2) A beach cat will certainly allow you to roam around more freely. They're super fast and can be a lot of fun, but you don't really "cruise" them. Cruising cats are much bigger than 16-18'. You can camp from a beach cat, but they're wet boats and don't have cabins, shade, etc. If you want to bring anything, you'll be lashing coolers to the mast and bringing a change of clothes in a dry bag. If that sounds appealing, it's a pretty cheap way to get out there. If that sounds like something very different than your dream (or something your significant other would hate) then keep researching. There are a lot of different ways to sail.

You can definitely get a keel boat in and out of there. I've done it numerous times. Whether it's a fun place to sail week after week...I don't know. It probably wouldn't hold my interest for more than a season, but I'd personally still rather do that than sail a beach cat.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I can at least answer the question of Cat 22 versus Cat 25... the Cat 22 will feel "tender" by comparison... Its NOT a tender boat (for its size) in fact its quite a shiply little boat, but as they say "there is no replacement for displacement," and generally its weight overall that determines "feel" of a boat. If you step on say 10 or so 22 foot boats (21-23 lets be fair)... the Cat 22 would be on the middle/heavy side, a J70 on the light side, and say a Compac 23 would be on the heavy side. If you had 3 floating together, you might wind up in the water stepping on the J70 (unaware), feel the Cat22 move some, and feel like you stood on a floating dock on a Compac 23, step from the Compac 23 to a Cat 25, and the dock just got PILINGS! Step onto a Cat 27 and the dock just got attached to those pilings!

The Catalina 22 and 25, and frankly 27 are equally "forgiving" boats. Frankly the cockpit space on each is (wait for it), about the same. You see as you go up in length, the focus is on room below/liveaboardability (yes my own word meaning more space below to live, ex: headroom). 

To start to see a "difference" in cockpit lengths you go to day sailors. Certain boats focus less on room below, and more on room on deck/cockpit. It is for THIS reason I steer people to the increasingly popular Capri 22 over the Catalina 22 these days. The cockpit on the Capri 22 is huge, but it of course neglects room below for it. Better than the Capri 22 would be say a Colgate 26, or a J80, but those boats also offer a more spirited ride as well. Frankly the Capri 22 is a more spirited ride than the Cat 22, or 25 as well.

Also if you wanted a weekday haunt for sailing, there is a nice lake north of you from Philly, Lake Nockamixon. There are no boats really larger than 24 feet on the lake, and the lake is quite small, with nothing but trailerables, but its a 45-50 minute ride from Philly depending where in Philly of course. The marina is a state run park marina (last I heard wait lists for slips are quite long), but transient slips (short term) are always available, and of course if you have a tow vehicle, dry storage is sometimes available. There are a couple sailnet sailors on here from Nox. The Nox Sail Club always has a vibrant bunch, and they also have a fleet of One Design races with Thistles I think. The Nox club also does Portsmouth mixed handicap racing last I heard too. The lake is a low HP lake (15hp I think or 25hp these days), so it is nice and quiet place to sail, and weekday sailing was ALWAYS good.

I'm a big fan of get sailing often versus get sailing big (water). Because of this I myself sail a local puddle (Wallenpaupack Lake) because its a 45 minute drive from work/home, even though I'd love to have a boat in real navigable waters, where they know what a travellift looks like  So my suggestion to you is to sail where you can as often as you can... It may mean a small boat locally, and big boat for the weekend place (or vice versa whatever works).


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## DreamWeaver (Feb 12, 2017)

Chip - If I stick with one hull, do you think I'm inviting trouble with a Cat 250 WK (3.42' draft)? Would you recommend looking for a swing keel instead?


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## DreamWeaver (Feb 12, 2017)

Shnool - Do you think a Capri-22 WK (2'8" draft) with standard height rig is too tender for a pair of novice sailors?


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

DreamWeaver said:


> Chip - If I stick with one hull, do you think I'm inviting trouble with a Cat 250 WK (3.42' draft)? Would you recommend looking for a swing keel instead?


You can really make yourself crazy after a while. Remember we sailed a Catalina 30 out of Beach Haven (3'10" draft).

Myself I've only owned wing keels and I wouldn't want a swing keel because of the maintenance issues and the keel winch is a shin knocker.

But that's me. As you're finding out sailors ALL have opinions about what's the best boat. What they're really telling you is what's the best boat for THEM. You have to figure out what's the best boat for YOU.

I don't think you can go wrong with any Catalina 22-27. The reasons are simple. Right now you really don't know what you want, but as you sail you'll figure it out.

The Catalinas are popular boats around here. That means that if you decide to go bigger or go different in a year or three you'll be able to sell the boat for pretty much what you paid for it as long as you take care of it. And that's not a bad deal.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

DreamWeaver said:


> Shnool - Do you think a Capri-22 WK (2'8" draft) with standard height rig is too tender for a pair of novice sailors?


I don't think it would be too tender for weekday sails. I think the chop that the power boats kick up on the weekends may make for an uncomfortable ride in a 22.


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## DreamWeaver (Feb 12, 2017)

Are cat boats a good option for learning how to sail?

Looking at pricey Marshalls, I see 18' gaff rig single sail versions, and a 22' sloop rig version.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

Cat boats were made for places Barnegat Bay. They won't teach you how to master a sloop, but you can learn a lot of other things. You could learn similar and different stuff on a Catalina 22, 25, or 27, or a beach cat or whatever.

Sailing is not one thing. It's:

Making the boat go
Knowing the rules for dealing with other boats
Navigation
Trimming for speed and/or comfort
Boat maintenance and repair
Understanding the weather
Radio and other communications
Planning for trips
etc.
etc.
Some boats teach you more about some aspects. Some of these you can learn from books or classes. Some of these you don't need to know on day one. A lot of these you won't really begin to understand until you've been out there.

At this point, I think you're fixated on boat types and configurations. What's more important is that you sail _a boat_. Find one that's not utter garbage. Take a friend if you don't know how to do that. Keep the draft under 4' or with a swing keel. Learn the basics of operating safely around other boats and just get out there. Or rent some. You can get a ton of opinions online, but I don't think anyone can tell you what you'll like or how something will feel to you or what the exact right boat is for you, and you won't know either until you've done it a bit.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

DreamWeaver said:


> Shnool - Do you think a Capri-22 WK (2'8" draft) with standard height rig is too tender for a pair of novice sailors?


The Capri 22 is a pretty rugged little boat... it'll take some chop for sure. Its also pretty forgiving... they can also be found cheap.


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## DreamWeaver (Feb 12, 2017)

Before setting sail on Little Egg Harbor, should I take a NJ Boater Safety course? Can anyone recommend a course provider? Does it matter if I take a course in NJ or PA (where I live)?


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm pretty sure the Boater Safety course in NJ is run by the NJ state police and is intended to teach you the proper safety tips you need while boating... since it is generalized for all types of boating. It goes over PFDs, lights/signalling, rules of the road and general safety on water. I believe that you must have a NJ boater safety cert to boat on waters inland in NJ.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

DreamWeaver said:


> Before setting sail on Little Egg Harbor, should I take a NJ Boater Safety course? Can anyone recommend a course provider? Does it matter if I take a course in NJ or PA (where I live)?


If the boat has an engine you are required to take the course. Take the course in the State where you live.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

You either need NJ's safety cert or an equivalent.

From the New Jersey State Police:

_A3: To operate a vessel upon the waters of this State, an individual would need one of the following: a Boat Safety Certificate issued in their home State, a New Jersey Boat Safety Certificate, United States Coast Guard Captain's License, or written proof of completion of a safety course approved by N.A.S.B.L.A. or one substantially similar to a New Jersey Course._

I got mine from the Barnegat Bay Sailing School.


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## Nicksails (Mar 17, 2017)

New to sailing also. My wife is not as enthusiastic about my sailing, but seems to be coming around to the idea. We are from Essex county NJ so I am looking from the Raritan Bay down through the northern area of Barnaget Bay. Don't have a boat yet, probably a couple years down the road but am intrigued with both Marshall 22 and 18s. Just attended the Cat Boat Association annual meeting up in Groton (her birthday gift to me). Very informative gathering and highly encouraging group!! All seem to know how to encourage a newbie. Very grateful as I didn't know where to begin the conversation. Been looking around for a other learning platforms (yacht clubs,marinas, associations,etc,) So the same situation but looking for answers a little more in Nj's north shore, for a novice sailor looking a catboats. Any and all suggestions, bring it!


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## DreamWeaver (Feb 12, 2017)

Update: we bought a Marshall 18' cat boat, after sailing with a friend who has the same boat. It's being shipped to Beach Haven from Maine, probably by end of next week. I found a slip at a house on the bay at the end of my street. We're looking to pay one or more local skippers to help me rig and launch the boat, set up the dock lines, and get oriented out on the bay. Send me a message if interested. I can always tip with a growler of Ship Bottom beer from the new brewery in town. I'm including pics of the boat and slip.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

Nice, congratulations. I was just in Beach Haven this past weekend.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Specs for the Marshall Sanderling 18' cat boat:
SANDERLING sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Frankly, I think that you made a very sensible choice. With a cat boat you get the shallow draft you need without being on a shoal draft version of a _____ (insert brand name/ft). As a sometimes racer I can tell you that the tall mast, max draft keel design of, lets say a Catalina 30 will almost always beat a shoal draft version. And winged keels actually have a reputation for being more difficult to free from the bottom after a grounding then a regular fin keel. With a grounded Sanderling 18' you will be able to step into < 2' of water and push your boat off (cuz by now your centerboard is up).
I have only sailed a Beetle cat once in a small pond (Georgica Pond) that was quite shallow in places. It is perfect for exploring shallow areas other keel boats can't go. 
If I had a beef with your boat choice it would be that the cabin is more like a cuddy cabin (read: small) but you could sleep on it, in a pinch. But it is your choice and you have a house there so this rather makes sense too. 
The old shippy look of cat boats is also very appealing to me.
Enjoy it. Summer is just getting started.


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