# First Overnight Race



## NautiGirlB

First Southern Straits Race and I am wondering what to expect. How to prepare.


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## smackdaddy

Hey nauti - welcome to SN, sista.

Several longtime racers around here. They'll help you out.

What's your ride?


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## Faster

Welcome, Nautigirl - always happy to see another BCer on the board.

What to expect for Souther Straits?..... COLD!
Seriously, this race can dish up anything and everything. Like any venue we've had drifters, gear busters, mass retirements and withdrawals, and once in a while incredibly beautiful moonlit sailing.

Being tied to Easter means that one year to the next it may be as much as a month earlier in the year compared to another year, so that's a factor too in what you might expect.

Depending on your ride, take plenty of easy-to-eat snacks, dress in layers with extras/dry clothes if you're not limited in what you can bring. At some point you'll probably spend a lot of time on the rail as at least one leg is likely to be a long beat.

Long course or Short course? Big difference in the time you might expect to be out there. Big/Fast boat or standard midsize PHRF racer/cruiser? These are all factors that will influence your experience.

Like most everyone you'll probably say 'never again' at some point, only to show up the next year anyway. Have fun!


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## jackdale

One of my favourite night sailing aids is a headlamp with a red lens - available at MEC.


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## Gary M

What is MEC ? I would like to get one but most are way too bright and a red lens would be good.


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## jackdale

Gary M said:


> What is MEC ? I would like to get one but most are way too bright and a red lens would be good.


MEC = Mountain Equipment Coop

The American equivalent is REI.

My LED is adjustable and the red filter drops over the lens.

Great for chart work and working on deck.

Jack


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## paulk

I would second everything Faster said. It will be colder than you would believe possible. Take your ski hat and fleece gloves (they dry out quickly) as well as lots of dry socks. If it rains, clear-lensed ski goggles can be nice to have. A personal flashlight (DON'T shine it aft, into the helmsman's eyes!!!) can also be handy.


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## jackdale

paulk said:


> A personal flashlight (DON'T shine it aft, into the helmsman's eyes!!!) can also be handy.


The flashlight should also have a red lens.


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## Ajax_MD

One word:

Coffee.


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## jackdale

Lots of equipment suggestions. I assume that you have a the requisite pdf, harness and tether.

You should be able to work around the boat at night. That means being able to work with the lines in the dark: coiling, flaking, tying and untying knots, etc..

Check the charts for the course and use the light list so that you can identify aids to navigation. The ones that are in the vicinity of Nanaimo-Parksville and Vancouver are hard to pick out against the lights of the cities. A couple of sets of eyes are often necessary.

What role are you playing on the boat?

I had an offer, but I had to turn it down. Have a get ride.

Jack


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## sailingdog

I would highly recommend buying a good vacuum insulated flask or thermos. Nissan stainless makes some good ones. Having hot coffee, tea or soup is a real godsend on a cold night watch.

Other gear you'll probably want for your racing kit:

*A large mesh bag to store your stuff.* _Lets the stuff dry and lets you see your gear, but keeps it organized and neat.

*A good flashlight.*  I prefer the Gerber Firecracker, which uses a single AA and is nice and small, but doesn't have a red lens. Making one of red acetate is simple enough though. An LED headlamp is a good addition too, preferably with red LEDs.

*A good rigging knife*. I prefer the Boyes Cobalt Carbide ones, but they're a bit pricey if you're not able to hold on to them.

*Your own harness and tether, preferably a harness integrated with a PFD*. I prefer the Spinlock Deckware pro or Deckvest. While it isn't USCG approved, it is SOLAS approved, and has some features the other PFDs won't. It comes with an integrated harness that is easily adjustable. It comes with thigh-straps, which are more comfortable than crotch straps. It has a strobe, whistle, and spray hood built in. For tethers, I like the two-leg tethers, with a 3' and a 6' leg, preferably with shock corded legs.

*A good hat*. I prefer fleece, but old-fashioned wool watch caps work quite well too.

*Good gloves*. Cold fingers and hands suck. Thin neoprene gloves are about the best choice. Fairly warm, yet leave you enough dexterity for most tasks.

*Good boots*. Wet cold feet pretty much suck too.  What boots you get depend on your budget and foot size. I prefer boots that fit tighter and give your feet more support. In really cold weather, I wear my technical ice climbing boots... feet are nice and warm and dry in them.

*Fleece makes for good layers*. They provide a lot of insulation, shed water well, dry quickly, and pack fairly small. 

*Good foul weather gear*. Needs to have the high collar, a good hood, good double cuffs, big pockets and lots of retroreflective patches. Adding retroreflective tape to the wrists and to the toes of your shoes is a good idea. The wrists make your arms much more visible, especially if you fall overboard. The toes make it easier for you to see where you're placing your feet at night. 

*A microfiber towel*. These are available at most camping gear stores, like REI/MEC. They absorb a lot of water and dry fairly fast and take up a lot less space than a traditional towel. 

*Anti-nausea meds*. Bring whatever works for you. Different people need different meds... 

*An extra pair of glasses* if you wear them or contacts Things get lost, broken or fall overboard. 

*Extra prescription meds* if you taken any. Keep the two supplies separate._


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## zz4gta

SD hit the nail on the head. 

A dry bag is really nice. Doesn't have to be yachtie. The mesh bag is good if you don't have someplace to hang wet stuff, but hanging dries faster. Use some line or a cheap carabiner to attach it to the boat somewhere. Cargo likes to go flying in the night for some reason. 

A snack. I like pop tarts. No need to heat them up, pre packaged, and LOADED with carbs. Like 400 calories per package. That's what you want on a long race, carbs can make up for a lack of sleep. You will have to sleep, but eating a lot of calories will give you energy to burn. 

EAR PLUGS! I'm a light sleeper, if you only get 2-3 hours to sleep, better make sure you can fall assleep in 10 minutes flat.


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## bljones

Sleep the entire day before start day. You don't know when you will get to sleep next.


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## sailingdog

zz4gta said:


> SD hit the nail on the head.
> 
> A dry bag is really nice. Doesn't have to be yachtie. The mesh bag is good if you don't have someplace to hang wet stuff, but hanging dries faster. Use some line or a cheap carabiner to attach it to the boat somewhere. Cargo likes to go flying in the night for some reason.
> 
> A snack. I like pop tarts. No need to heat them up, pre packaged, and LOADED with carbs. Like 400 calories per package. That's what you want on a long race, carbs can make up for a lack of sleep. You will have to sleep, but eating a lot of calories will give you energy to burn.
> 
> EAR PLUGS! I'm a light sleeper, if you only get 2-3 hours to sleep, better make sure you can fall assleep in 10 minutes flat.


I agree, these are all good suggestions. I carry a dry bag, but like having a mesh bag too for wet stuff... I also carry about 20-25' of small stuff with me as a general rule... never know when you'll need it.

Powerbars and Clif Bars are better than poptarts, but poptarts are much tastier. 

Earplugs are key, especially if someone on the crew snores...


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## jackdale

Earplugs and thermos are on my list for offshore students - should have used that list. Forget snoring - there is nothing as noisy as being in a cabin right below a winch.

One other suggestion.

A 500 ml (2cup) water bottle with a wide mouth.

Gatorade crystals - some skippers do not like bottled water on board. Gatorade or ice tea makes the tap water more palatable. (On the other hand some skippers drain the water tanks and carry only what is required.)


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## sailingdog

You've never heard me snore.... 


jackdale said:


> Earplugs and thermos are on my list for offshore students - should have used that list. Forget snoring - there is nothing as noisy as being in a cabin right below a winch.
> 
> One other suggestion.
> 
> A 500 ml (2cup) water bottle with a wide mouth.
> 
> Gatorade crystals - some skippers do not like bottled water on board. Gatorade or ice tea makes the tap water more palatable. (On the other hand some skippers drain the water tanks and carry only what is required.)


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## zz4gta

sailingdog said:


> Powerbars and Clif Bars are better than poptarts, but poptarts are much tastier.


yeah, I tried the power bars once. Only once, I can't digest what I can't choke down.  do love the pop tarts...


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## jackdale

sailingdog said:


> You've never heard me snore....


Now should I take that as an invitation?


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## sailingdog

Some people's palates are more developed and civilized than yours apparently... 


zz4gta said:


> yeah, I tried the power bars once. Only once, I can't digest what I can't choke down.  do love the pop tarts...


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## smackdaddy

Developed and civilized?

Power Bars completely and utterly suck. Like eating peanut butter flavored particle board. Nothing civilized about that at all...unless you're a beaver.

Put me in the "uncivilized" pop-tart bracket with ZZ. Clif Bars are pretty tasty too.

Have you guys tried these babies?


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## sailingdog

I'm not surprised you're buying Hello Kitty poptarts. 



smackdaddy said:


> Developed and civilized?
> 
> Power Bars completely and utterly suck. Like eating peanut butter flavored particle board. Nothing civilized about that at all...unless you're a beaver.
> 
> Put me in the "uncivilized" pop-tart bracket with ZZ. Clif Bars are pretty tasty too.
> 
> Have you guys tried these babies?


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## NautiGirlB

Thank you! Great answers. To answer some for you.

I will be sailing on a Bennetau 40.2 with a newly formed (still forming) all women crew.

I have been sailing/racing less than a year and have never done anything like this before. I can deal with the cold and lack of sleep. I am more worried about what the conditions will be and how well, I will handle what I have never experienced before. While I have never been seasick in my life, should I take preventative measures, just in case? They say it will happen to everyone at some point.

I am geared up pretty well clothing wise but do need to invest in safety gear. With a limited budget, what would you buy first? Strobe, tether and whistle or the PFD ( boat has lots)? They both land in about the same dollar range. I pretty much know which way to go but it is always nice to get other opinions.


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## puddinlegs

"With a limited budget, what would you buy first? Strobe, tether and whistle or the PFD ( boat has lots)? They both land in about the same dollar range. I pretty much know which way to go but it is always nice to get other opinions."


Category II race. You need all the above + a harness. Red lensed headlamp and a good knife as others mentioned as well.


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## NautiGirlB

You are correct, Puddin. I forgot the harness. What I meant is the boat has PFD's that I can use for this race and I thought I should invest in all of the other gear first and then buy my own PFD with the next budget allotment. I do have the headlamp and a good knife.

Thanks.


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## zz4gta

I like the PFD's w/ a harness built in. By far IMO a tether/harness is the most important piece of safety gear. 
Rules number 1,2, and 3 = Stay on the boat. You stay on the boat, a PFD, survival suite, strobe, whistle are never used. 

I have a cheaper SOSpenders auto inflate/manual inflate PFD w/ built in harness. There is a strobe and whistle attached to the inside of it. 

What position will you have on the boat? 
Flash light w/ red lense is good, but a head lamp is the cat's meow. Not a lot of tasks on the boat you can do w/ one hand.


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## sailingdog

NautiGirlB-

If you do use a PFD from the boat's gear, *check to make sure that the CO2 cartridge is FULLY SEATED.* _Many PFDs will show it as armed properly, but will not inflate when the CO2 cartridge is partially seated. _



NautiGirlB said:


> You are correct, Puddin. I forgot the harness. What I meant is the boat has PFD's that I can use for this race and I thought I should invest in all of the other gear first and then buy my own PFD with the next budget allotment. I do have the headlamp and a good knife.
> 
> Thanks.


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## NautiGirlB

I am looking at almost 800.00(Cdn dollars) for everything I need. That is middle of the road, nothing high end. 350.00 of that is for the PFD with HIT and harness and then I would still need to buy the rest (minus the harness).

I know that I need to get it but like everyone, the bank account only stretches so far.


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## NautiGirlB

I am working main/pit.


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## sailingdog

NautiGirlB said:


> I am working main/pit.


Congrats... don't forget to bring a digital camera along... photos are always worth taking. The best small digital boat cameras I recommend are the Olympus SW or Tough series. The older ones were the SW series, which got renamed the Tough series.


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## zz4gta

NautiGirlB said:


> I am looking at almost 800.00(Cdn dollars) for everything I need. That is middle of the road, nothing high end. 350.00 of that is for the PFD with HIT and harness and then I would still need to buy the rest (minus the harness).
> 
> I know that I need to get it but like everyone, the bank account only stretches so far.


Where are you shopping? What does that $800 include?


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## NautiGirlB

That was from West Marine. I am in Vancouver, BC, Canada, so everything gets converted to Cdn dollars. For example, a double ended tether for 149.00 US ends up coming in at around 182.00 plus taxes. We do have some smaller,independent suppliers but generally stuff needs to be ordered in for you. I don't really like shopping that way and there is no time.

The 800 included PFD w/HIT( apparently important in the rainy PNW weather) and harness, whistle, strobe, tether and harness which I will need for this race if I use a boat PFD. I will end up with double harnesses in the end but I just can't swing everything at once.


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## Faster

The dollar's near par now so the differential should be less... but getting the stores to recognize that is tough.

Nice ride! Best wishes on the race, as far as conditions, as I said it's wide open until the best weather forecast comes in closer to the date. There's a pretty good weather briefing at WVYC on the prior Wednesay or Thursday, I believe, so keep an eye out for that.

The way this year is going so far maybe you can just wear shorts and a teeshirt........


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## Gary M

You might want to get down to the boat and try on the PFD and harness and see how it suits you. If you do not like what is on the boat ask around. 
It is OK to buy stuff over time as long as you can borrow. 

A Mustang type auto inflate is good and that is what I have but I bought a Salus PFD for my 22 year old son who does bow for someone else 

The Salus is what dinghy sailors use and I think has some advantages over the inflatable, also some disadvantages too. Just take a look.

A good strobe, one that is SOLAS approved might be something the boat will not supply so you may want to pick one of those up. I got twolast year for about $85 each.


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## jackdale

NautiGirlB said:


> That was from West Marine.


You might check out Steveston Marine for a Mustang MD 3154 (no - I do not have a vested  interest.)

Steveston Marine: marine, boating, and fishing supplies

This is a great price.


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## sailingdog

NautiGirlB—

Be aware that some of the "safety gear" like strobes, whistles, and such may already be included in your PFD/Harness purchase. For instance, the Spinlock PFDs come with an integrated harness, and are equipped with a whistle and water-activated strobe.


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## jackdale

sailingdog said:


> NautiGirlB-
> 
> Be aware that some of the "safety gear" like strobes, whistles, and such may already be included in your PFD/Harness purchase. For instance, the Spinlock PFDs come with an integrated harness, and are equipped with a whistle and water-activated strobe.


The MD 3154 and other Mustangs have a whistle (not a huge savings, I have several Fox 40s at home) and a harness; but no strobe. I use an ACR that fits nicely inside the vest.

Do not forget to buy a re-charge kit. The one for the md3154 is expensive - $80.00

The PFD will probably have to be approved in Canada unless you have a spare approved non-inflatable.

Another nice / but not necessary addition to equipment. I have a pouch that holds a rigging knife or leatherman and a maglite; it attaches to the webbing on my PFD. I bought it at MEC,:

Nite Ize Mini Pock-Its - Mountain Equipment Co-op. Free Shipping Available


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## Faster

Just a side comment to this discussion.. be aware that in Canada, anyhow, the inflatable PFDs only "count" if they are being worn. i.e. - having 4 in the locker with 4 people in the cockpit without pfds means you're not in compliance with the law. If you have another 4 conventional PFDs on board then that's OK.

Not sure if that's the case in the US as well...?

Of course, in the context of this thread wearing the thing is a given!


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## NautiGirlB

Thank you! I really like the Spinlock Deckvest. It has everything and is a reasonable price. Now I just have to find one.


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## svHyLyte

While buying all manner of safety gear may have some merit, it is no less important that you are thoroughly familure with the yacht and what to expect from the master aboard ship during the course of the race. I know of more than one female crew that, because she was female, was expected to be the designated "cook", churning out meals and snacks for the "working crew" (i.e. deck apes) during the course of a race. Needless to say, that was not a welcome assumption and no one ended up happy with the arrangement.

Assuming you will not be assigned only "pink" jobs, you need a good undersatnding of the layout of the yacht--where lines are, etc. Go down to the boat a few daze beforehand if possible and see where things are and then close your eyes and try to visualize where everything is in your mind's eye. If you have the time, do that until you can reach out and touch the mainsheet, vang, and jib sheets as they come off their respective winches with your eyes closed from where ever you're standing in the cockpit. Being able to find the right line, or a jack-line or pad-eye to connect your tether to, in the dark without a night-light, and without falling off the yacht, or planting a portion of your body in a load line is important and even a red "night light" can goof up a helmsman's night vision to some extent so that will be unwelcome.

On the night you are sailing the sun will not set until very late--but it will not rise again until after 0900 on Saturday morning and there will not be a moon for long and not a full moon at that so it will be a very dark night. IF you are blessed with no overcast you'll have a terrific view of the stars and if you are sailing the long course, as you head northwesterly up toward the Sisters along the southwest side of Lasqueti, Cassiopia will appear before your headstay. Unfortunately, tho', at your latitude, your won't be able to follow her for long as she'll be moving further north quite rapidly but she will give you a good heading for awhile. It would be helpful for you to run "Stellarium" or one of the other free Star Programs so you can see what your night sky will look like and what to expect. Likewise it would be wise to study the charts along your course-line so that you have some idea of where marks, aids and lights are and what to look for or expect. You don't have to memorize them of course, but it is helpful.

Frankly, I don't think sailing at night is all that difficult as there is markedly less traffic and lights are easier to see from a distance. One also gets more in tune with the yacht as one's other senses come into play and are not so dominated by sight. The sound of the wind across one's ears, the direction of sway in a seaway... To some extent, I have found that once they become accustomed to the idea that a yacht will osscilate back and forth around a heading, so that the helm really doesn't need a lot of action, women are often better drivers in the dark. My wife, all of 5' and 102#, stands night watches on our boat alone while we're traveling, and does a very good job of it.

N'any case, just a few thoughts...

FWIW...


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## jackdale

NautiGirlB said:


> Thank you! I really like the Spinlock Deckvest. It has everything and is a reasonable price. Now I just have to find one.


I do not think that they are either USCG or DOT approved.

Binnacle sells them for CDN$326.96. SPINLOCK DECKVEST INFLATABLE PFD VEST Binnacle.com


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## NautiGirlB

Very good advice. We will have had three all day practises by the time the race rolls around. That gives us time to get to know the boat and each other. We are an all women crew so all the jobs are pink jobs.


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## NautiGirlB

I did notice that is was not DOT approved but hoped that because is met the ISAF regulations, that might override the lack of approval. Something that I was going to look into.

I don't think I have enough time to order on-line. I will need to find someone local.


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## AdamLein

HyLyte: I think Easter is usually pretty close to a full moon... Also the sun should rise a lot earlier than that, surely by 7am (it's already twilight before 7 this morning).


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## puddinlegs

svHyLyte said:


> Frankly, I don't think sailing at night is all that difficult as there is markedly less traffic and lights are easier to see from a distance. One also gets more in tune with the yacht as one's other senses come into play and are not so dominated by sight. The sound of the wind across one's ears, the direction of sway in a seaway... To some extent, I have found that once they become accustomed to the idea that a yacht will osscilate back and forth around a heading, so that the helm really doesn't need a lot of action, women are often better drivers in the dark. My wife, all of 5' and 102#, stands night watches on our boat alone while we're traveling, and does a very good job of it.
> 
> N'any case, just a few thoughts...
> 
> FWIW...


svHyLyte, While there's less traffic, it's not at all unusual to have logs and a good deal of other junk in the water, particularly in combination with rainfall, snowmelt, etc... It's not a place where one ever really 'relaxes' in a boat at night. And indeed, the sun rises much earlier than you mention (and sets earlier... it's not summer yet!  )


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## hellosailor

Three small additions:
A "Croakies" or other strap to retain your glasses, or sunglasses, if you wear them. If things get busy and a sail or line whips your face, your glasses are gone without it.
Chapstick with sunblock, regardless of weather.
And, a pair of sailing gloves. Before you look at the "sailing" gloves, see if a hardware store has a pair of yellow Kevlar knit gloves in your size. They are used for handling broken glass and trash. Cut-proof, wear like iron, and you can let a line slip through them with total control--because they don't chafe. they used to be available as sailing gloves, but seem to have gone off the US market.
If you are using an inflateable PFD? TEST IT. Blow it up with the oral tube (or better, a vacuum cleaner or air pump) and let it set overnight, to make sure there are no leaks, not even slow ones. That's part of routine inspection once you own one. If you blow it up, you get bacteria and moisture in it, so there are reasons not to orally inflate it, or at least, do so infrequently.<G>


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## jackdale

April 4 moon - Point Atkinson

Moon rises 2:00 am
Moon sets 9:49 am

Last quarter - April 6
New Moon - April 13

Sunset 7:46 pm (Apr 3)
Sunrise 6:46 am (Apr 4)

(info from TideTool)

Some tactical / strategic comments

Get a copy of Expedition race software (at least the trial version). Tie it into your instruments and get the grib files. It can provide an optimal course based on your polars.

If not Expedition:
- the Current Atlas is a must
- SailFlow (SailFlow.com - HI-Hawaii Wind Data) can provide great forecasts; it also has tides and currents. It is a subscription service.
- GribUS (GRIB.US > Home) is an OK wind forecaster, but lacks detail. It is free.
- check out the weather fax (Northeast Pacific WX Briefing Package) to get a sense of what might be coming in.

In the end the tactician and skipper still have to use their own judgment.


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## AdamLein

jackdale said:


> - the Current Atlas is a must


Even for raises in the central Strait of Georgia?



> - SailFlow (SailFlow.com - HI-Hawaii Wind Data) can provide great forecasts; it also has tides and currents. It is a subscription service.


Unfortunately often "the model is down" or some such thing. Also recommend bigwavedave.ca and windfinder.com for location-specific wind data.



> - check out the weather fax (Northeast Pacific WX Briefing Package) to get a sense of what might be coming in.


A real cool set of maps to get used to watching in the days leading up to any sail... recommend Wind Came from All Ways to go along with it. Tells you what you can expect, given terrain and pressure gradients. Metrotown Library has a copy; I know cuz I just returned it


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## svHyLyte

AdamLein said:


> HyLyte: I think Easter is usually pretty close to a full moon. Also the sun should rise a lot earlier than that, surely by 7am (it's already twilight before 7 this morning).


Oop's!! Yes Adam, you are exactly correct. I failed to adjust Stellarium for the GMT offset correctly (-8 rather than my current -5 hours). Dumb--Very Dumb (a failing of advancing age I guess). As for the moon, while it will rise at around 0100 plus change on the 3rd, it will at an azimuth of roughly 130º T after which it will only reach an elevation roughly 15º above the horizon at roughly 180º T at about 0500 (on the 3rd) before decending back into the sea at roughly 230º by about 0855. Of course the sun should break the horizon at about 0630 on the 3rd so the moon is irrelevant at that point if not by 0600. Despite all the foregoing, in my view the moon will not reach an elevation sufficient to provide much assistance given the course steered during the race, nor to obsure the stars, provided there is no cloud cover but that is, of course, a subjective judgement. These are matters for the young lady to be aware of, however, no?

FWIW...


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## Hudsonian

Three observation from distance races:
1. When you are off duty, you job is to be resting. When you come on deck you should be fresh. Sleep as much as you can. If you waste an opportunity to sleep you will not be able to make it up. Wear a sleep mask.
2. Before you leave the dock know exactly where you will stow your gear. Don't put gear any other place. This particularly important for your PFD-harness. They are uncomfortable to sleep in. Groping in the dark they all feel the same. If you don't know exactly where yours is you'll end up donning somebody else's gear -- a bloody great nuisance when you're scrambling to get on deck. The other will not be amused.
3. Avoid tea and coffee which tend to dehydrate you. Steaming hot jello will warm you without the diuretic effect.


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## hellosailor

"Avoid tea and coffee which tend to dehydrate you."
That was formally debunked last year. There were extensive studies about the role of caffiene and caffienated drinks, and the studies came up saying there's no longer any basis to worry about them. 
Very much the way everyone said "use margarine not butter, butter is bad for your heart" until the late 80's, when they turned around and said "use butter, it is better than the transfats and hydrogenated oils used for substitutes!"
Steaming hot jello might also be a problem because of the large SUGAR LOAD it throws at your system. Or not, if it is sugar you are needing.


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## zz4gta

There will be at least one point during the race when you will ask yourself "why am I doing this?". Don't worry, that'll pass, concentrate on your job, and sail fast!


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## puddinlegs

svHyLyte said:


> Despite all the foregoing, in my view the moon will not reach an elevation sufficient to provide much assistance given the course steered during the race, nor to obsure the stars, provided there is no cloud cover but that is, of course, a subjective judgement. These are matters for the young lady to be aware of, however, no?
> 
> FWIW...


All well and good except that there will be a good deal of ambient light and point shore lighting visible. Race to the Straights, while being an overnight event, isn't an open ocean race away from the sight of land.

To some of the others who suggest that she get software, subscribe to weather services, etc... as the pit person, steering and navigation probably won't be within her purview for the race, but of course, being aware of tidal info, general weather and wind (available for free), attending whatever pre-race seminars are involved, and talking to others who've participated in previous years, are all very worth while things to do.


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## smackdaddy

Just come back and tell us how it turns out Nauti.


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## Paladen

For overnight racing my "as advertised on TV" Foodsaver Vacuum Sealer is incredibly useful. We use it to prep individual foods for 'boil in the bag' applications, and it is good for keeping socks and tighty-whities fresh and dry (grin).


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## NautiGirlB

Sadly, there will be no SS for me after all. 

Thank you for all of the advice.


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## Faster

NautiGirlB said:


> Sadly, there will be no SS for me after all.
> 
> Thank you for all of the advice.


Bummer.... have you tried to arrange another ride? or was it for different reasons?

There's always Swiftsure in a month and a bit....


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## NautiGirlB

Nah, I am really not a very good sailor. I want to be but I am too old, slow and clumsy. Also, I made a stupid, horrible, terrible mistake and now am considered dangerous.

I guess there is always golf.


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## SVAuspicious

NautiGirlB,

First, don't give up too easily. We all learn more and better from our mistakes than from easy successes. If you share your mistake perhaps we can help you. If it was physical some time in a gym with a good trainer who understands sailing could work wonders. It has for me, once in my 20s and once in my 40s. I managed to be a darn good foredeck monkey until I was in my late 40s, and even then I dropped out due to injury not age.

If your skipper/owner is any good going to her and explaining what you did and that you understand the issues may not get you back in the SS, but it may keep you on the crew.

On a more general basis, a lot of the advice above drifted from what you should have as crew to what should be on the boat. The skipper/owner should be managing provisions, weather, etc. She will tell you what is expected of you in that regard. On a race boat cameras really tick me off. If you are off watch you should be resting or asleep; on watch I don't want to wait for you to stow a camera before you can trim. Save it for the after-party. If I'm on the pointy end doing a peel I don't want my picture taken - I want you on the freaking halyard!

Cruising offshore is a different deal entirely and things are much more relaxed, at least until something breaks. *grin*

So share your woes, ignore the irrelevancies, and add to what you know from the rest.


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## sailingdog

what happened???



NautiGirlB said:


> Nah, I am really not a very good sailor. I want to be but I am too old, slow and clumsy. Also, I made a stupid, horrible, terrible mistake and now am considered dangerous.
> 
> I guess there is always golf.


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## zz4gta

Helps me open up. Lets talk about it


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## NautiGirlB

This is sooooooooooo humiliating.

I dropped the boom.

It was one of those moments you just wish you could take back. Stupid,stupid and stupid.


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## zz4gta

You were responsible for holding the boom? I thought the mainsail did that...


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## NautiGirlB

That was funny! A little too soon for me to laugh though.

Think topping lift with the main down.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.


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## hellosailor

Dropping the boom is only humiliating if:
1-It isn't the first time you've done it, or
2-You MISSED the crew you were aiming it at.


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## sailingdog

Ouch... Sorry to hear that NautiGirlB. I can see how that might have spooked the others aboard. 

Was anyone injured??? Anything damaged??


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## NautiGirlB

Yup, they were pissed. I was in a state of shock.

The only damage was to the companionway cover. About a 1 inch split in the fibreglass. What if that had been someones head!


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## Faster

Still, sounds a bit harsh unless you did it on purpose!


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## NautiGirlB

No, not on purpose. I think it was more not knowing the boat. Different set ups/controls than I am accustomed to. That is not meant as an excuse, actually that should have been more of a reason for me to stop and think it through better than I did.

It did seem harsh to me too, but maybe that coupled with my lack of skills was enough to cut me from the team.

Thanks for listening.


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## GeorgeB

What job were you doing on the boat? Pit? Without going into particulars, can you tell us the boat's size or class? Sorry that things didn't work out. You might want to find a less intensive boat to crew on next. And yes, get back on that horse! Don't let this discourage you. And while you're at it , keep collecting your gear so you can be ready for the next big ocean race.


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## sailingdog

Yes, it could have injured someone... no, you didn't... hopefully, you've learned and now you'll be a more cautious sailor.


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## NautiGirlB

We were at the dock all ready to put her to bed. 1980 something Beneatau 40.7 with line stoppers that I have never seen before. Helm asked for some topping lift ( I am used to doing lifting boom with the main halyard). Pulled on the line, stopper opened up all the way and CRASH.

These style of stoppers don't seem to do much unless they are fully closed. Am I missing something?All the more reason that I should have put it on the winch.

As for getting back on the horse, I don't know. My confidence is shot and now I think I am dangerous. I would not be able to live with myself if I hurt someone.

Less intensive boat? Is there such a thing? I wanted to race because I thought it would be fun with a competitive edge. That has not been the case. Very serious stuff. People say that they don't scream and are open to training newbies. The few boats that I have been on, they have all screamed and mostly at the newbies. 

Just because you love something does not mean you are cut out for it. I can always cruise. I will still be sailing.


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## jackdale

There are less intensive boats. In 2007 I crewed on a boat for Protection Island, Swiftsure and Van Isle. We used to have long discussions about tactics. I think a remember a a couple of times we voted on whether or not to gybe.

One of my favourites lines is "success teaches nothing." I ONCE had a massive case of rope burn when I released a gennaker halyard without the requisite two wraps on the winch.


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## sailingdog

NautiGirlB said:


> We were at the dock all ready to put her to bed. 1980 something Beneatau 40.7 with line stoppers that I have never seen before. Helm asked for some topping lift ( I am used to doing lifting boom with the main halyard). Pulled on the line, stopper opened up all the way and CRASH.
> 
> These style of stoppers don't seem to do much unless they are fully closed. Am I missing something?All the more reason that I should have put it on the winch.


Generally, when in doubt, put the line on a winch with at least two wraps, preferably three. Some line clutches, notably the spinlocks, and some line stoppers are not very well designed IMHO. The Spinlock line clutches can jam when heavily loaded.



> As for getting back on the horse, I don't know. My confidence is shot and now I think I am dangerous. I would not be able to live with myself if I hurt someone.
> 
> Less intensive boat? Is there such a thing? I wanted to race because I thought it would be fun with a competitive edge. That has not been the case. Very serious stuff. People say that they don't scream and are open to training newbies. The few boats that I have been on, they have all screamed and mostly at the newbies.


Why don't you get back up on the pony...instead of crewing for an overnight race, crew on _"round-the-cans"_ weekly afternoon or evening races. These tend to be a bit less competitive and would allow you to ease back into it.



> Just because you love something does not mean you are cut out for it. I can always cruise. I will still be sailing.


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## svHyLyte

Humm...

Who made the decision you wouldn't race, you or the owner?

Aboard boats, "Sh_t Happens". Most who race realize that stuff's going to get broken, damaged, torn... and accept the fact. Most good crews take joint responsibility and help fix stuff when it gets damaged. That's part of the game. If the owner's rejected you, then he/she may be being a jerk unless you really are such a novice that you constitute a liability to yourself or the other crew but, if so, I suspect he/she would have told you as much.

As for the topping lift, knowing that boat I'm surprised its not been fitted with a solid vang already. N'any case, one thing to remember is to always twig a line to a stopper (ahead of the stopper) to determine whether it's loaded before releasing the clutch. If it's loaded, or if you can't twig it (say if the dodger's in the way), get a few wraps of the line around a winch and release the clutch by giving the winch a few cranks which will pull the clutch open. Popping the clutch on a stopped line chews the line up and if the line is loaded, can lead to unexpected and unfortunate results, as you've discovered.

Now go get back on the da_ned horse.


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## smackdaddy

There's a great VOR video of a couple of dudes grinding at night. The grinding gets slower, slower...the the boat shakes. Everyone looks around like...WTH?

About two seconds later, a 4' section of carbon fiber mast slams into the starboard side of the cockpit - about 2 feet from one crewman, then bounces across the cockpit and grazes one of the grinders on his back as he's moving out of the way.

They both still raced.


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## NautiGirlB

OK, here is a really stupid question. I obviously don't know much about topping lift but would the load on the line be different when the main sail is up vs down? In my mind I say yes, but........

Like I said earlier, on any other boat that I have been on, the main halyard is brought back and hooked to the boom and the topping lift is not touched.

Thanks!


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## GeorgeB

Nauti,

Ah, the Bene-Farr 40.7, I'd own one now if it had a "better" cabin layout. Did the Bene's topping lift go through a Spinlock? I'm not a fan of those as they are either on or off. It sounds like you were working pit? Were you responsible for raising and lowering sails and the topping lift/foreguy? Every boat is laid out differently and is definitely confusing to a new crewmember. I have gone so far as to bring my own white rigging tape and a sharpie so I can label things (I also bring my own can of Mclube). One note of caution about these "big" boats - there is nothing that is not under load. Always put a turn or two around a winch before releasing any clutch (but you know that now). The 40.7 is a pretty hot boat and probably has a crew personality to match. Find boats with ratings over a hundred and ones that are mid fleet or better in their division. Things happen a lot less frantic on them. Spend a season on one of those and then move up. My C34 was one such boat. We were competitive in our class, but simpler to crew than the under 100 PHRF boats. I also spent a lot of time in crew development and guys would sail with me for a couple of years and then move up to a hot shot boat. For years I felt like I was a AAA ball club manager - developing talent and sending them up to the "big show". You want to find a boat like that where you can learn trimming and maneuvering and have fun at the same time. So go out and find that boat (I'd volunteer Freya, but we don't pay travel expenses. )


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## sailingdog

Yes, when the mainsail is up, it is supporting the boom. * The load from the boom is transferred through the sail to the main halyard*. When the mainsail is down-the boom is free to drop, as you found out. On bigger boats, the boom is heavier...and more of a danger.

Many boats have a dedicated topping lift, which can be very useful._ Be aware that on many boats the term topping lift is used to describe two different lines._ One is used to support the spinnaker pole, the other used to support the boom.

I prefer to have a proper topping lift. It can be very useful. 

First, it can act as a spare main halyard. 
Second, it can be used to help recover a person in an MOB incident. 
Third, it can help shape the main sail in very light air. 
Fourth, it can support the boom when raising, reefing or lowering the main sail.



NautiGirlB said:


> OK, here is a really stupid question. I obviously don't know much about topping lift but would the load on the line be different when the main sail is up vs down? In my mind I say yes, but........
> 
> Like I said earlier, on any other boat that I have been on, the main halyard is brought back and hooked to the boom and the topping lift is not touched.
> 
> Thanks!


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## GeorgeB

On those boats the topper is loose when the main is up so you can sheet/vang it in. If you don't tension the topper before dropping the sail, then the boom will droop into the cockpit when the sail is down. Tensioning the topper prior to dropping takes tension off the leech, letting the main drop smoothly without binding the sail slugs. You also tension the topper briefly during reefing so you can get the new clew to rest easier on the boom when you tighten the clew reefing line. Once the new clew is set, you ease the topper.


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## svHyLyte

It is not uncommon to find that once the main's been dropped and the load taken up by a topping lift, someone will harden up the mainsheet to keep the boom from moving around. Topping lifts are typically made with relatively lighter line in as much as they are not intended to carry much weight. The line "loads up" when someone hardens up the mainsheet and there one has a formula for disaster. Kind of like a drawn and locked bowstring waiting for an innocent to come along and pop the lock and WHAMO!--boom on head, or hatch cover, with predictable results.... (And, of course, one can then clearly see the Stars I referred to earlier, eh?)

Get back on the da_ned horse...


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## puddinlegs

NautiGirlB said:


> We were at the dock all ready to put her to bed. 1980 something Beneatau 40.7 with line stoppers that I have never seen before. Helm asked for some topping lift ( I am used to doing lifting boom with the main halyard). Pulled on the line, stopper opened up all the way and CRASH.
> 
> These style of stoppers don't seem to do much unless they are fully closed. Am I missing something?All the more reason that I should have put it on the winch.
> 
> As for getting back on the horse, I don't know. My confidence is shot and now I think I am dangerous. I would not be able to live with myself if I hurt someone.
> 
> Less intensive boat? Is there such a thing? I wanted to race because I thought it would be fun with a competitive edge. That has not been the case. Very serious stuff. People say that they don't scream and are open to training newbies. The few boats that I have been on, they have all screamed and mostly at the newbies.
> 
> Just because you love something does not mean you are cut out for it. I can always cruise. I will still be sailing.


Don't beat yourself up too much about it. (I'm pretty surprised the boat doesn't have a ridged vang...) Lesson learned. I've had the great pleasure over a number of years to sail on some great boats with successful programs. Not any screamers in the bunch. Matter of fact, I won't sail with screamers or allow them on my boat. It isn't fast, and no one is learning. The failure was on the owner/skipper/crew boss for not knowing your previous experience and not showing you how the clutches worked before you left the dock, nor explaining the loads generated by the particular boat and the safety implications... Rule of thumb, loads double for about every 5 feet of boat length. If you've sailed on a 35 foot boat, you won't really understand the loads on a 40 ft boat, but with more experience, you'll learn how to anticipate them a bit better. Importantly, you've correctly answered your own question. Don't release a clutch without some wraps on a winch if there's any possibility it's under load. You get it. You're there already! Next, ask the more experienced folks on the crew a lot of questions, particularly about using the boat's hardware and your body/footwork to gain the most (and safest) mechanical advantage. It's not always about strength. Honestly, to quit now seems to be a shame. Buck up. Your mistake was 'stupid' only if you don't learn from it. This all may well apply to your 'next' boat, but many here will tell you the same thing... fast boats are quiet boats. Boats get quiet with effective communication, clear instruction, practice, and a thorough post mortem for everyones' benefit.

Here's a quick story for you... a guy I know once pulled a very large carbon spin pole back after releasing it from the mast. It ended up in the triangle of the boom vang as the main was being jibed. Pole jacked around the mast, outboard end in the water, and a very expensive bit of hardware busted. Luckily no one was hurt. He's now a sailmaker with a great track record for a very well known loft. He didn't quit. Neither should you! Racing will ultimately make you a much better sailor in a shorter time.



Saddle up and get back out there!


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## hellosailor

"Less intensive boat? Is there such a thing? ... they have all screamed and mostly at the newbies."

Well, different clubs, or even different series (weds night vs weekends) or different one-design groups, all tend to shake out differently. The thing is, you can have an eight hour race and quite often the top two boats cross the finish line within 10 seconds of each other, sometimes within less.

So if you want to have fun, by all means, have fun. But the guy who boat a $150k boat or a $350k boat is't going to be happy that way, and as you start to focus on the little things and find out that they need gobs of money and time (for training) and committment (irregular crew just doesn't win)...the Type-A personalities show up.

All too many of them think that macho and bullying louder will accomplish something, which it often does. Very few understand that you can build a team without denigrating anyone on it, and that positive reinforcement will eventually build a better team. But very few people in any business or field understand that concept.

So you usually wind up with tempers and screaming matches as the racing gets more intense, and if you don't have a thick skin (or most unusual company)....you wind up in "performance cruising" instead.

In NASCAR they say if you're not bumping you're not racing. In other auto racing circuits they say if you're bumping, you're out for the season. In boat racing? The lines are drawn a little less clearly. If you find you don't like the racing you are doing, it may pay to look around and see what other groups are doing things a bit differently.

Some skippers will do a three-day race with protein bars, others will lay on deluxe galley supplies. Which are heavier but make lots of happy crew, and happy crew sometimes reward whoever fed them.<G>

Don't be afraid to shop around. Or to ask questions. The folks who get upset about questions, are probably looking for slaves, not crew.


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## puddinlegs

.. but with due respect, you can still sail at very high levels in the sport without screamers. Sure, owners who have a lot of money and ego invested are serious, but the good ones look for desire, competence, and commitment to both a practice and race schedule whether sailing a small one design keel boat, or a mini-maxi. Good boats are quiet boats. In my experience there's never been an exception. People yell because they don't practice and don't communicate effectively. Good boats have deep crew lists because the boat is well sailed, and most importantly, well lead. Nautigirl, you'll know the right boat when you're on it. It might take a bit, but be ambitious to learn. Good things will follow.


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## zz4gta

In regards to a quiet boat, look at the LV trophy and check out their onboard shots. All you hear is the snacktician and the skipper talking. When they're quiet, you just hear winches and lines being adjusted. That series has the best sailors on the planet in the closest match racing on the water, and they'll go all day w/o saying a word to each other. 

Please do not give up on racing, we need all the crew we can get! Plenty of boats out there. Next time, play w/ the jammers at the dock to get a feel for them. Find out what they do and watch what they do. To often a grinder will grind in the headsail w/o looking at the sail. Someone will ask for some vang, and a crew will yank on it. They don't have a connection between what they're doing and the effect it has on the boat, crew, or other equipment. At first do everything very deliberatly and slowly, understand what is going on, not just "pulling strings". Speed will come.


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## NautiGirlB

I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the input.

It is not my choice to quit racing. The skipper says she is concerned for the safety of the rest of her crew and that I am dangerous. The cut was so fast and clean that I hardly left any blood on the dock. I was in such a state of shock that I did very little to help myself. I dont really remember the drive home and that is over an hour with three bridges. It is not a nice feeling having 10 women pissed at you.

I was not working pit on this boat even though it is my preferred position. I was back on main. But because of the way the boat is laid out I would stand just behind the pit person and have to crawl a bit to reach the traveller. Main sheet, traveller and topping lift to port side, everything else to starboard and main halyard at the mast. We were back at the dock, sail flaked and cover on when the helm asked for topping lift. Nobody heard her as they were all busy chatting and not really paying attention.

Now, this is why I asked about load with sail up/down. Earlier she had asked for the very same thing and told me to just give it a little tug, no winch needed. Perfect, I was able to do what she asked by hand, so when she asked again, I did the same thing with the aforementioned disastrous results.


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## zz4gta

When the sail is hoisted, the sail will hold the boom up b/c it is attached to the halyard. When the sail is down, there's nothing supporting it except for the topper. No worries. Just find another boat.


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## puddinlegs

Nauti,
It seems really odd to me that (and no offense intended here) with your level of experience that you're trimming main. A couple of things. Pit seems like a relatively easy position, but the best people anticipate what and in what order things need to be done. When the pit makes mistakes, sails end up in the water, poles fall on heads, gybes don't happen smoothly, etc... It's the most under appreciated position on a race boat. Now back to main, again, it's odd that the skipper is having you trim main. It's perhaps THE most critical position on the boat. The best main trimmers have years of experience and have done most positions on the boat including driving. (On our boat, the main trimmer will be driving at some point during a race. Someone new to the main will have the regular trimmer sitting right next to them explaining and teaching, and the new trimmer will not be asked to trim during a race or even cruising in heavier air.)
An inexperienced main trimmer in a race is not only slow, it's a liability in crossing situations as they're not likely to understand the physics involved in ducking a starboard tacker. From your description, it sound like you where on a beginner boat with a bunch that really don't have enough experience actually _teaching and managing_ a crew. I've never heard of someone 'dismissed' from a boat in front of the entire crew... that's just poor people skills being mistaken for leadership and sure sign of the skipper's own insecurity. That alone combined with a larger boat, racing at night, etc... would make me think it's a boat filled with good intentions, but one to stay clear of. Loads of other boats up in your area that would provide a much better experience.


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## NautiGirlB

Puddin'

You are totally right. I have been sailing less than a year. Raced 8 races and and about a dozen practises. I started with my ASA101 and continued on taking a "race course" with the school. Means absolutely nothing but it got me started. Time was up with them and I didn't want to spend another grand to race another season with them. So, I found this boat that was forming an all women crew. The skipper is a very experienced racer. The boat owner has done Vic-Maui and offshore deliveries. The rest of the crew, I don't really know. A few years experience for some, one had been on a sailboat 3 times and she is foredeck.

I loved pit on the other boat, the foredeck crew and I worked well together. I was able to focus and anticipate without doing anything silly. I know how important main trimmer is and I dont think that I am anywhere near ready for that. I guess when a lot of your crew are new then you have to put them somewhere. I hope this makes some sense.


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## NautiGirlB

Also, I did not mean to give the impression that she canned me in front of everyone. The others had all wandered into the bar and she and I were alone.

In hindsight maybe I didn't handle it properly, maybe I should have gone into the bar and hammered it out with them.


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## mccary

This is a very good thread, even for us non-racers. Night sailing offers up some special requirements for safety. A couple non personal things you might consider if they are NOT required by the Govt or RC; I would add a man-overboard pole/rig. Also, a spare GPS (even a small trail variety as a backup). A spare set of charts (when they get wet they are a mess).

Some other things to consider for comfort, some instant soups (broth variety) are good. Non chocolate candy bars and trail mix add some energy with low mess.


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## Faster

Chin up, Nautigirl... don't give up. Look into possibly sailing with some female crews in M242s at RoyalVan. Years back there was an Emily Carr regatta for all female crewed boats.. there may still be a bit of an association dealing with that. Someone from your former boat (besides the skipper) might be able to help you there.


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## zz4gta

NautiGirlB said:


> one had been on a sailboat 3 times and she is foredeck.


Ok, I don't know anything about this particular race, but the above decision is stupid. I hope they're doing non-spin.


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## smackdaddy

NautiGirlB said:


> It is not a nice feeling having 10 women pissed at you.


Aaa...trust me, it's not that bad.

Chin up Nauti. Find another boat and kick some butt. You can do it.


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## sailingdog

NautiGirlB said:


> I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the input.
> 
> It is not my choice to quit racing. The skipper says she is concerned for the safety of the rest of her crew and that I am dangerous. The cut was so fast and clean that I hardly left any blood on the dock. I was in such a state of shock that I did very little to help myself. I dont really remember the drive home and that is over an hour with three bridges. It is not a nice feeling having 10 women pissed at you.
> 
> I was not working pit on this boat even though it is my preferred position. I was back on main. But because of the way the boat is laid out I would stand just behind the pit person and have to crawl a bit to reach the traveller. Main sheet, traveller and topping lift to port side, everything else to starboard and main halyard at the mast. We were back at the dock, sail flaked and cover on when the helm asked for topping lift. Nobody heard her as they were all busy chatting and not really paying attention.
> 
> Now, this is why I asked about load with sail up/down. *Earlier she had asked for the very same thing and told me to just give it a little tug, no winch needed. Perfect, I was able to do what she asked by hand, so when she asked again, I did the same thing with the aforementioned disastrous results.*


The other thing that could have happened, is that someone loaded up the main sheet to help keep the boom from swaying.

If the first time you touched the topping lift, the main sheet was eased, then it would not be much of a load on it-just the weight of the sail and boom for the most part. If the second time was after someone snugged up the main sheet-it could have been very heavily loaded-think 6:1 tackle loaded... and that is why it dropped hard enough to crack the companionway.

BTW, it is generally a good rule to assume any line is loaded...and take precautions as if it is...


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## NautiGirlB

Yup, a big bummed S kite. Bow girl has a fair bit of experience, the 3'fer is on mast. 

Even though I made a serious mistake, you have made me feel much better. It was an honest mistake brought about by a number of things. In the future I will be more insistent about boat check out. I will not let it get brushed aside or postponed. Also I will adopt the "when in doubt, winch" attitude. 

I will chock this up to experience and let the cards fall where they may. I will not give up. I just love it too much. I will work hard on some different things and wait to see what the future brings.

Another quick question though, shouldn't the topping lift have had a stopper somewhere? It was just something suggested to me. I don't know what that would be or where it would be placed.

I think I might just start a thread about mistakes. Biggest, first or most serious. Watch for it!

Thanks much everyone!

NGB


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## FSMike

NautiGirlB said:


> Earlier she had asked for the very same thing and told me to just give it a little tug, no winch needed. Perfect, I was able to do what she asked by hand, so when she asked again, I did the same thing with the aforementioned disastrous results.


Let me get this straight. You were asked to perform a certain action and you were instructed how to do it. Later you were asked to perform the same action again and you performed it in the manner in which you had been instructed.
And the accident is your fault?
I don't think so.
Go find another boat and have some fun. You will.


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## NautiGirlB

I know. That was the toughest thing for me to digest. It was not until I got on here and started working through it that I realized what had truly happened. That is why I was in such shock and was unable to defend my actions. 

I will not make excuses, as my skipper said to me " you touch a line, you are responsible for the outcome". PERIOD.

Frankly, now I am a little bit pissed. I do believe that I deserved to be reprimanded but to be cut from the team? I really thought after the shock (she was leaning on the boom with a beer in her hand)and anger had worn off, we could talk but there has been deafening silence

I think that she was finding that there were a lot more young, strong women wanting to sail and I was the weakest link and it was a good excuse.


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## Izzy1414

Girl,

97 posts and your real transgression finally comes out .... you spilled the skipper's beer!!! The nerve. Really, find another boat and have fun. 

BTW, thanks for the thread. It does everybody good to talk about mistakes and how to handle them. Maybe your skipper is also reading this and will learn something from it. After all, she made the bigger mistakes IMO


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## FSMike

NautiGirlB said:


> I will not make excuses, as my skipper said to me " you touch a line, you are responsible for the outcome". PERIOD.


True to an extent, but I don't think that includes being given improper instructions.
There's something that your skipper needs to be told - "If you issue a command, you are responsible for the outcome". The authority to issue commands carries with it an equal responsibility to make sure the commands are correct and consistent and given to the appropriately trained person.
Nautigirl, look at it this way -- If you were the captain and had commanded and instructed a new crew member in the same manner you were, would you as captain feel guilt on your part for the accident?
I thought so.
I sentence you to a rum drink. Fruit and umbrella optional.


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## NautiGirlB

Thank you for the huge laugh. I hope that is a real puupy in your pic. I have treats! Seriously, I carry treats wherever I go. Now, I need to bring them sailing.

Vancouver has a VERY small racing community. Maybe 60 boats? If you take a look at the Southern Straits boats registerd, 1/3 are American.
I am ruined. My skipper is a very experienced race with an incredible reputation, her word is gold.


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## NautiGirlB

Oops, sorry, two posts came in at once. But, I do have treats


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## NautiGirlB

Part of the problem is, the skipper is not the boat owner, nor is she the helm. There is an incredible young woman who is doing a great job as helm. Skipper is boss. Boat owner is trying to be pit but................. does not have the focus, but wants to learn.


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## FSMike

Sorry for my confusion, when I said skipper I meant the person issuing the commands in the situation discussed.
No worries, I think you will be able to find another boat. Don't sweat the politics too much.
It's getting late in the opposite corner of the country. G'night.


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## bljones

NautiGirlB said:


> It is not my choice to quit racing. The skipper says she is concerned for the safety of the rest of her crew and that I am dangerous. The cut was so fast and clean that I hardly left any blood on the dock. I was in such a state of shock that I did very little to help myself. I dont really remember the drive home and that is over an hour with three bridges. It is not a nice feeling having 10 women pissed at you.


F**k 'em.

Find another team, and kick some ass. Finishing ahead of the other team is the best revenge.


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## Izzy1414

FSMike said:


> True to an extent, but I don't think that includes being given improper instructions.
> There's something that your skipper needs to be told - "If you issue a command, you are responsible for the outcome". The authority to issue commands carries with it an equal responsibility to make sure the commands are correct and consistent and given to the appropriately trained person.


Eggzackly ...... in any position of authority, in any walk of life.



FSMike said:


> Nautigirl, look at it this way -- If you were the captain and had commanded and instructed a new crew member in the same manner you were, would you as captain feel guilt on your part for the accident?
> I thought so.


Because we can tell that you have character even after only 25 or so posts. Character shines through in a hurry, even on the internet. Speaking of character, don't be so sure that your former skipper is the grand goddess to every other captain out there. I think she is at least guilty of some poor judgment in your case and I doubt that it is the first time. I'm sure that her competitors are aware of most of her shortcomings. In such a small community, a lot of their crew are probably people she's run off.  

PS Yes, Izzy is a real pup with simple pleasures ..... Milk Bone is her favorite.


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## NautiGirlB

Ahhh, as wonderful as that is for you to say, I have some confidence issues that may be incredibly grating on some people

The skipper I PAID to train with knocked the crap out of me verbally. I am old (47) and trying to get into something that maybe I am not cut out for.

Hell, I will lose weight, train for balance, work hard. But, first and foremost I will be there every practise and every race day. No doubt. My personal schedule is compiled around the races. Significant other knows dont plan anything here!
As I said earlier, the younger and stronger women were coming out to form the team and I became redundant.


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## POLKA247

"Vancouver has a VERY small racing community. Maybe 60 boats? If you take a look at the Southern Straits boats registerd, 1/3 are American.
I am ruined. My skipper is a very experienced race with an incredible reputation, her word is gold."

BULLSH___ that just means more people are aware of her and her tactics . You need to buck up. I raced a lot in my twenties in "the bay area" on a lot of boats. ZZ nailed it earlier. I was a nubbie then. I had screamers and abusers. Then I raced with a skipper who was cool under pressure never raised his voice other than to be heard. I had a lot of skippers raise their voice to be heard not in anger which new to the boat crew took offense to. However, the good skipper would make great sandwiches the night before the races and always had beverages of your choosing. I had a few people try and woo me away from the boat, they couldn't. I was dedicated and I learned tons of info from him. Why? Because he educated everyone who was interested. How? All you had to do was listen, every situation we got into he discussed with us prior to making a move. Confidence, that is what he had in him self and his crew. 
I'll be doing the Oregon Offshore and maybe see you in Victoria in May. Good Luck.


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## NautiGirlB

POLKA, you are just spoiled!

Hee hee, Giggles!

Yes, I am a girl

Damn, that's Swiftsure.


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## sailingdog

I'd point out that there were a few things that the could have been done to prevent the accident ahead of time. For instance, on a lot of the lines on my boat, I have stopper knots tied in them to limit their range. If this had been done on the topping lift line, the boom may have dropped, but it would have been stopped before it hit the companionway, and certainly would not have broken it. 

In general, most things have a working range of motion that should not be exceeded... dropping the boom to the point where it hits the cabintop is one of those things... They can often be prevented with a little forethought.


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## Stillraining

Nauti:

We wont make it this year..but If you need a ride for next years Swift-sure I'll take ya!

We aren't really what your looking for race wise but the offer stands...I might be the only Guy on the boat....And I don't yell unless its to warn life, death or dismemberment to a crew...Racing should be fun even if its to win and intense...Find another boat.


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## PCP

puddinlegs said:


> Nauti,
> It seems really odd to me that (and no offense intended here) with your level of experience that you're trimming main. .... Now back to main, again, it's odd that the skipper is having you trim main. It's perhaps THE most critical position on the boat. The best main trimmers have years of experience and have done most positions on the boat including driving. ... Someone new to the main will have the regular trimmer sitting right next to them explaining and teaching, and the new trimmer will not be asked to trim during a race or even cruising in heavier air.)
> An inexperienced main trimmer in a race is not only slow, it's a liability in crossing situations as they're not likely to understand the physics involved in ducking a starboard tacker. *From your description, it sound like you where on a beginner boat with a bunch that really don't have enough experience actually teaching and managing a crew. I've never heard of someone 'dismissed' from a boat in front of the entire crew... that's just poor people skills being mistaken for leadership and sure sign of the skipper's own insecurity*.


I agree. It seems that you were not the only one with lack of experience.


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## Dulcitea

*Maybe its time to shift gears!*

I am your age (okay, older , female and also not in the best physical condition of my life (that's an understatement, but hey, Dennis Connor doesn't have a six-pack either). My first serious race as an adult was on an all-female crew. I was on the foredeck. . . thank God because I couldn't hear half the yelling. That tactician had some mouth! I was clumsy, got the sheet wraped around my leg and almost went over. I "won" the tenderfoot award and wasn't asked to crew again.

Thank God! It was the best thing for me because I shifted gears. Like you I WANTED TO RACE. Instead of crewing bigger, expensive boats, I bought an old one-design and started with beer cans, one-design races and then nationals. Sure, I lost a lot at first, but no one was yelling! And it is a lot more fun being the skipper. You can learn a lot about racing on a dingy. I've got people fooled now. They actually think I'm good (sometimes). It sort of came full circle recently when a male boat owner asked me to skipper his all-male crew in an upcoming race. I will not yell. I will not yell! I WILL NOT YELL!!!


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## sailingdog

Excellent point Dulcitea.  Good for you, and don't yell when you're the skipper.


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## RXBOT

*Set up*

I think Nauti was set up for a fall. Boat is at the dock, main down ,skipper leaning against boom with beer in hand. Someone tells her to adjust topping lift. You may want to raise boom end for overhead clearance but wouldn't person giving order call to skipper and inform her boom is to be adjusted. Why didn't this person adjust lift herself. Normaly boom would be positioned away from dockside to otherside so it is not over companionway.

If this is hot boat with hot skipper why are they taking on novices, shouldn't there be a veteran crew?

What kind of girls are they looking for?


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## NautiGirlB

I would hate to think that anyone would set someone up for that kind of fall.
It still holds true that I made a serious error, but I now know why and that I would never do it again. The harsh way it was handled has gone from stinging to making me a teeny tiny bit angry. Maybe it is better that it ended now instead of later. 

I am still sad that I am not going but looking at the weather predictions it maybe a good thing. Hee hee! I don't know if there is enough depth of talent there to handle a possible gale. I know I don't have the experience.

Now I need to figure out if I should go and watch them all take off and feel bad or stay home and feel bad. Knowing me I will probably go and offer silent best wishes for a safe trip.

Thank you to all for the great ideas and offers of rides. I feel so much better now.


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## sailingdog

Glad to help NautiGirlB. I'm sure you'll find another boat to crew on shortly enough... or take the approach Dulcitea suggested...


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