# Is Tartan 27 good for intermediate sailor?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I need some advice. I am looking for a boat in the 24-29 ft. range for around $10K with full keel to liveaboard and do moderate coastal cruising in New England area until my skill level is up for a Caribbean trip in a couple of years. I have been looking at old Tartan 27s, as I like the keel/centerboard option, heavy displacement, shallow draft, and have read that it is seakindly, forgiving, and a good starter boat. I have been sailing Lasers since I was 7 (now 31) and have been sailing my mom''s Catalina 22 with her on an inland lake for 2 summers. I am a "seat of my pants" sailor, but am now catching up by reading lots of sailing books, magazines, and websites for the last two years. I am concerned I lack the skill to singlehand a boat that is large enough to live on. I plan to only sail in fair weather at first, possibly get sailing friends to help, and take a training course if needed. All comments welcome. Thanks.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Feedback anyone? Thanks.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

why don''t you join the tartan sailnet group?
eric


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thank you for the tip. I have now signed up for the Tartan list.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

libby,
where are you located?
there are a few tartan get togethers this summer.
did you sign up?
eric


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Kimberlite, 
Hi, I am currently in Philadelphia, but will be moving to Maine as soon as I can--at least by the fall. Where are the get togethers? (I signed up for the Tartan list, and am receiving info, but am having trouble posting any messages.) Do you know what the Maine Boat Builders Show is all about?
Thanks.


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## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

Moving to Maine, huh? What part? If you want to find a boat, troll the yards from Rockland to SW Harbor. I saw a Bristol 32 sitting at Devereaux''s in Penobscot (on the road to Castine) last summer. My Bristol 35 sits on hard in SW Harbor right now. Probably will have to sell, but resisting. I''m 2500 miles south enjoying the Caribbean. Racing the Puerto Rico Heineken Regatta this coming weekend. St. Maarten was great. Wish I had my boat. There MAY be a Tartan 27 in the yard at Winterport, Maine. When you get on board any boat, ask yourself how you''d sheet the main, genoa sheets and doink around with other paraphernalia while steering. The Bristol''s mainsheet is aft of the helm. The Jeanneau and Beneteau I''ve been racing are on the bridge deck and cabin top, respectively. The cabin top setup is impossible to singlehand well. The Pearson Vanguard, Coaster and so forth might work well for you. Gas engine should probably be avoided. Find out how old the rigging, look everything over. There''s also a yard out back of Belfast that often has boats sitting around with For Sale by Owner signs. The demand is higher in Portland area, so if you can find an out-of-the way yard in the Penobscot Bay region you might find your deal. Should be a good summer up there. The winter has clearly sucked. See you in Rockland at the NABF (north atlantic blues festival) or maybe Lobsterfest. Keep your options open on boats. Sometimes it''s take what you can get for the price. I saw a nice 31'' Contest, older but great boat, for about $15,000 in Belfast a few years ago. Right place, right time.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The Tartan 27 is a nice little boat. In fact it is one of my favorites from this era. The keel/CB lets you get into shallower venues and still have decent windward performance. Tartan 27's have made quite respectible passages. 

They are getting pretty long in the tooth so great care should be taken in surveying one. If the standing and running rigging has not been replaced, you can expect to do that. Like any older boat, you need to check for delamination in the deck and at high flex areas. 

If the boat has its original engine it needs to checked very carefully. Things like sails, instruments, upholstery, fuel and water tanks, electrical systems,propshafts and deck hardware etc. are likely to be at or near the end of their useful lifespans. Collectively these problems can easily be twice the value of the boat so look for one that has had these issues addressed even if it is a bit more expensive.

By modern standards of course they are quite slow and not very goo din light air. That makes a big difference when you talk about distance cruising on a small boat. It means that you have to carry a lot more supplies and a lot more fuel. Carrying a lot of weight in a small boat can reduce the safety of the boat as boats disperse the force of a gust in two ways, accelerating and heeling and the added weight in supplies can make the difference between a knockdown and fast trip.

As to the full keel the Tartan falls somewhere in a grey zone. Although it is hard to believe the Tartan was actually designed as a MORC race boat. They have a cut away forefoot and a pretty long overhang between the ends of the keel and the ends of the boat. My experience on board these boats is that they do not track any better than a properly designed fin keeler. Now then, under sail you can adjust the CB to balance the helm some. They tend to have a fair amount of weather helm when tuned to have good windward performance which can be balanced quite a bit with the CB. 

As to vulnerability I would suggest that the centerboard and trunk are as vulnerable to damage in a grounding as any well made fin keeler. 

I guess my point here is that I would not limit myself to so called "full keel" boats. There are a lot of good boats out there in your price range. 

Good luck
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Viexile, Thanks for the local input on boats in Maine. I am moving to Portland or somewhere near there, but will go where the work is. (I am looking for work in park management/outdoor recreation. But have not found many prospects in Maine yet for the summer, which may push me elsewhere temporarily.) I think Pearsons would be good, too, but have not found many. I agree, the right place at the right time is always important, so I hope to drive up to Maine in a couple of weeks and will check out the spots you mentioned. The winter has clearly sucked all along the east coast it seems, and I would love to escape from Philly before the dreaded heat and humidity sets in. Maine summers are paradise, and that is one of my attractions to the area especially such lovely places as Rockland, Camden, and Bar Harbor. Anyway, happy sailing in the Caribbean; it sounds nice!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff_H
Thank you for such a thorough reply regarding the T-27. I am seriously interested in one that has had a lot of improvements since 1996, ie. new sails, new forestay, shaffer roller furler, new cb pennant and pennant drum, and a well maintained engine. I''m going to go look at it and will definately get a survey before buying any boat. Your comments about full keel vs. fin keel are interesting. I have had a little reservation about the T-27 because of its lack of ability to go to windward, (and I love beating!). But they are supposed to shine on a reach, so I guess that balances it out some. I have considered the Cal 2-27, but have not found many/any on the east coast. The Paceship 26 was recommended to me. I guess the full keel is appealing for it''s old fashioned sturdiness, and maybe that is a bit of an antiquated way to view things. (I think this is an ironic preference for me since nearly all of my sailing has been on the ultimate light and fast Laser.) But, full keel just sounds safer. Guess I''ll do a little more research.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Actually they point pretty well, just not very fast, but where they loose out is on reaches where more modern designs are much faster. They are actually pretty fast dead down wind with thier masthead spinackers and their Centerboards raised.

Jeff


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## chuckg (Nov 30, 2000)

You may want to read a book call "The Coast of Summer" about a couple who cruised the Cape and Islands around Southeastern Mass on a Tartan 27. The author's name is Anthony Bailey and used to write for New Yorker magazine, but it offers plenty of good information of the positives and shortcomings of this particular boat. From the vast majority of owners, it is a true classic plastic boat with pleasing looks, somewhat tender with a tendency to hobby horse in a seaway.


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## Vetterr (Jan 21, 2011)

A boat that you could consider is the contessa 26 , it is about 6000-12000 $ usd for a good condition one. Also Alberg 29 and 30's are nice , the 22 is a little tight but nice . 
Happy boat hunting.
Cheers,
Vetterr


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Besides for the fact that this is a 10 year old thread and the fellow bought the T-27 and really enjoyed it, and that he has not been here since August 2001, his goals were a good coastal cruiser. He was concerned that the T-27 did not offer enough performance, especially up wind or enough room to live aboard for the summer (from another thread). So a boat like the Contessa 27, which is extremely cramped down below would not be a reasonable suggestion. An Alberg 30 or 29 offers slightly more room, but does not point as well as a Tartan 27. An Alberg 22 makes less than zero sense failing on all counts. And a Bombay Clipper does not sail worth a darn and and was not constructed as well as the Tartan so would make no sense except for the live-aboard aspect. I would suggest that if you are going to make suggestions, that you try to keep them more germane to the context. 

Jus' say'n


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

You forgot to mention the "welcome to sailnet" Jeff


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

I would look at a simlar boat, Cape Dory 27 or 28.
The CD 27 will outsail the T 27. There may be a higher price on a CD 27.
They do retain value if maintained. I'm not a fan of Keel/center board boats.
The construction of CD is better over all. One is for sale up in Winterport.


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

For anyone inyerested in this 10 year old thread, the Tanzer 27 which they built in early 80's was made from a Paceship 26 (1973) mould. Personally I like these boats and feel you should be able to find one at a good value price and they are a fine boat to begin with. Though I prefer the fixed fin the centerboard edition would make sense in some areas.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

First off I feel like I owe Vetter and Dulce Suema an apology. I am sorry for snapping at you both.

I did want to address Omaho's comments: 
In terms of the comparason of the Tartan 27 to the CD 27, I would like to hear the basis for saying that the Cape Dory will outsail the Tartan 72. I have not seen any reason to believe that to be even remotely true. Besides for the Tartan 27 typically rating 21 -27 seconds a mile faster than the Cape Dory 27, the Tartan will outpoint the Cape Dory by quite a bit. In terms of ease of sailing, the Cape Dory 27 is comparatively tender and develops a wicked weather helm in a stiff breeze. While the Tarten will develop a bit of weather helm as well, you can 'trim' that out with the centerboard resulting in a nicely balanced boat that still points well and makes minimal leeway. Even in terms of motion comfort, the Tartan has one of the nicest motions in a chop of any 27 footer of that era that I can think of. I have always been impressed by it. The Cape Dory not so much, tending to be a real roller and pitcher.

While the Cape Dory 27 does have a much nicer looking interior, and certainly a better offshore layout than the Tartan 27, it is not as livable an interior if the goal (like the OP) is a summer liveaboard. In terms of build quality, S&S was one of the first design firms to begin to understand the need for internal structure, smaller panel size, limiting flexure, resin ratios, and upping the ante on material handling methods. And Tartan had evolved from a company that built one-design race boats. The construction methods and engineering on the Tartan 27 were quite sophisticated for that era and the typical hardware and deck layout was first class for the time. By any objective standard, in comparason the Cape Dories were pretty crudely built.

Lastly, I don't know why you personally are not a fan of keel centerboard boats but I would suggest that this is a great way to go for a small cruising boat offering shoal draft, and as compared to most liong keel boats, typically offering much better performance all around.

Respectfully,
Jeff



omaho5 said:


> I would look at a simlar boat, Cape Dory 27 or 28.
> The CD 27 will outsail the T 27. There may be a higher price on a CD 27.
> They do retain value if maintained. I'm not a fan of Keel/center board boats.
> The construction of CD is better over all. One is for sale up in Winterport.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I just love it when Jeff_H gets riled up! Especially when he is defending my old Douglas & McLeod built, S&S designed Tartan 27'. 
I saw that this thread got revived but decided to try and be a better man and not take the bait. I figured that SailingDog would be along to remind everyone that this question was asked 10 years ago (about the same time we bought T27 #328). 
There are lots of different boats available in the 27' range out there to choose from; each with it's own set of compromises, proponents and detractors. I know that we all tend to "love the boat you're with" and I am no different; I love my Tartan 27'. Hell, if I'd bought a 12' styro-foam Sea Snark 10 years ago I'd probably love that too, ungainly and un-seaworthy as it might be.
Ten years ago my research turned up that the Tartan 27' was akin to the Cadillac of production FRP boats in it's day. I've learned quite a bit more since then. It may well be one of the first FRP production keel boats made in this country with around 700 hulls made from the early 1960's through mid 70's. The design firm of Sparkman & Stephens was a class act at that time and made some great innovations on the award winning boats they had built prior to the T27. There still are a large number of T27's being sailed by happy owners (we have over 300 members in our T27Owners yahoo group).
We actually race our old shoe T27 in a PHRF fleet. Even though our nearly full keel does not point as high as most of the boats in our fleet and we have a shorter water line then most we actually won our Weds. night series sailing against the likes of Catalina 30's, Tartan 30's, and a Cal 28' & P30 among others. I can tell you that it was not because we are brilliant strategists. We won because we showed up for almost every race and the T27 has her own tricks for keeping up with the newer, lighter, "better designed" boats. I'm not sure the new designs are "better"; they are merely newer.
One of the problems with these internet forums is that anyone can post a message and in a sense we all pass ourselves off as 'experts' when we are merely posting our subjective opinions. I'm sure these latest boat suggestions to this now (nearly) dead thread were made with the best of intentions. However, over time it is possible to see who is just throwing out an idea and who (if any) really knows there stuff. I believe that Jeff_H posted on this thread way back in 2001 if anyone can read back that far. Jeff_H is one of the (few) people here who really do know a lot about the merits of different boat designs.
Now, if anyone had suggested a Pearson 30' instead I doubt that Jeff_H would have taken exception as much as he did.


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

"By any objective standard" "Cape Dories are crudely built." Thank you JeffH for settng me straight on this. You are man of much knowledge.
I wlll not expound on this any longer. This is so ONLY because you are so easily angered. That said , you shuold do some more homework.
Try comparing both on "Sail Calculator." They are so similar in strict numbers
that there is no point in further debate.
Control the ire and seek help.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes, Jeff is opinionated and probably stubborn as well. And usually right.

I'm not getting into the argument of which boat is better between the Tartan 27 and the CD 27 - although I favor the Tartan.
My argument is with Sail Calculator being used so often to bolster one design over another. It is one tool of many but it really doesn't say much about which boat is a better performer. 
Between the 2 boats being discussed the only glaring difference is the CD's DL ratio of 419 vs 336 for the Tartan, the result of the longer waterline of the latter. 
But nowhere on Sail Calc does it show which boat has the sweeter lines or is a better sailer. As a matter of fact if you were to take either boat and make it's bow square and barge-like it would even look better as far as the numbers are concerned. It would gain in hull speed as that is only a result of measured waterline length. And if you eliminated the aft overhang it would look even better again. 
If you go through Sail Calc in detail you will find that many boats that are not exactly well received actually fare quite well by the numbers.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Jeff has what I call "the burden of knowledge". He has seen and sailed so many boats, so many GREAT boats, that sometimes he lets "perfect" be the enemy of "good enough", especially for those of us who are on a budget or just want to keep things simple.  I don't always employ his advice, but I'm always glad when he offers his insight.

Back to the T-27- I found one in pretty good shape for dirt-cheap. In a brief fit of 2-foot-itis, I almost bought it but I managed to restrain myself. When I step up, it'll be 5 feet, plus I just didn't want to get into maintaining a centerboard in the Chesapeake's growth-prone waters where the board may end up getting stuck if not exercised frequently enough.

What I liked about it is that it's simple and tough, even if it's not the best performer. It had cabin features that I liked. Most people I've met who own(ed) one speak highly of them for those reasons.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CalebD—

By the time I saw this thread, Jeff_H had already responded and I didn't see any need to say anything further.  

Omaho5—

I would point out that the sailboat calculator that a lot of people use as gospel has a lot of bogus information in it. Not all of the measurements in it are correct. If I were to pick between listening to Jeff_H or the sail calc, I'd bet all my money on Jeff_H. The sail calculator uses a very limited dataset to produce numbers that may not reflect realworld performance and sailing characteristics to any degree. While it can be a useful tool, it is not by any means a definitive comparison between various boats, even if the data for those boats is correct.


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

I did not know that MY preference would cause such an uproar. We, up here in New Hampshire, are more prone to being blunt in our assesments.
Also, many of us are northern versions of "Deliverence."
When not sailing we are on the front porch with a banjo, shotgun, and cross country skis.
That being said, the Cape Dory has several strenths that a Tartan does not 
possess.
"crudely built" is a biased slur against a very good sailboat.
Tartan has a few very well known weak areas that ARE not shared wth CD.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Dueling banjos aside, would you care to elaborate on the strengths the CD27 has over a Tartan 27? If not, then those strengths surely aren't worth much.



omaho5 said:


> I did not know that MY preference would cause such an uproar. We, up here in New Hampshire, are more prone to being blunt in our assesments.
> Also, many of us are northern versions of "Deliverence."
> When not sailing we are on the front porch with a banjo, shotgun, and cross country skis.
> That being said, the Cape Dory has several strenths that a Tartan does not
> ...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

And the weaknesses of the Tartan 27 as well please.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

omaho5,
I'm a bit surprised at the reception your comments have received as well. Below you clearly state that the Cape Dory is your preference. As I said in a long rambling earlier post, if I had ended up with a CD it would probably been mine as well. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and frankly it is not worth debating differing opinions. A man likes the boat he owns. Not a thing wrong with that. 
I've never sailed on a CD so I can't speak to their attributes, good or bad. The few CDs I have seen made me think that they are pretty nice boats of a similar age to the T27 along with some Bristols and Pearsons. I think that the Pearsons are a close cousin of the T27 and the CDs and Bristols a more distant cousin. All of these older boats appeal to me in one way or another but I do like to hear from folks who have sailed and worked on these models and Jeff_H is someone who has worked on and sailed on more boats then I can hope to in my lifetime. 
The T27 is a pretty unique boat with a pedigree and one of the first production keel boats ever made. Did they make mistakes and compromises? Of course they did and so did every other boat maker. I happen to enjoy hearing others expound upon the virtues of my old boat and I tend to agree with them since I have sailed and maintained our T27 for 10 seasons now and I know both her good and not so good points.
I know that visually the CD is a pretty boat from the ones I have seen, similar in deck design to the T27 and in no way a bleach bottle boat. I'll bet that they sail similarly except the T27 center board and nearly full keel is a bit unique and makes it handle in its own peculiar way. 
To each his, or her own.



omaho5 said:


> I did not know that MY preference would cause such an uproar. We, up here in New Hampshire, are more prone to being blunt in our assesments.
> Also, many of us are northern versions of "Deliverence."
> ...


I've seen that movie too. You do know that there are some not so subtle references to homosexuality and/or beastiality in it? "Squeal like a pig." 
I'm hoping you were just poking fun at the bad sunburn on your neck. 
Man likes his CD. I'd like to sail on one some day.


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

After all this I can honestly say that I have loved Tartans for years. I am 65 and have been sailing since 1963.
The 27 is among my favorite boats, along with the Triton, and most favorite,
the Brstol 29.9. 
The Cape Dory sloops are almost all good. The cost of ownership, repair amd maint. is less per foot on the CD than the others. I say that based soley on my friends who own the other boats.
The T27 has had more deck delamination problems than CD's of any size. This is mostly because of hull to deck construction. 
Most keel centerboard designs are by their nature prone to issues.
The CD 27 does not have the Atomic four.. has a diesel.
The wood mast step is /will rot.
Rudder post had no bearing originally
the hardware did not come with backing plates under hardware.
The above points are NOT issues on the CD's
This does not mean that I think Tartans are inferior boats. They are wonderful boats. However, for someone of knowledge to blurt out that Cape Dories are poorly built makes me question the veneration given his opinions.
Again, I'm just old country hick living in rural NH.
We do not have anything like Annapolis up heah...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Hmmmmm...Newport, RI is pretty close. Surpasses Annapolis as a the sailing capitol of the East. CD, Tartan, Sabre, C&C, Bristol....all good boats from that era. Every one has advantages and disadvantages. I prefer the C&C-s,

Dave


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

Newport is close. However, as a kid I was exposed to Penobscot Bay while living on Isleboro. If one can take a little fog [alot], saling "Doweast" is as good as it can be. The afternoon SW's are soooo wondeful. The lobster, fried clams, cole slaw as God meant it to be, unpretentious wealth and community are icing on the cake And, I stll love Tartans. A Cape Dory 36 beating to windward over at 20 degrees will make my heart jump.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I have been on a Bristol 29.9 for at least 1 sail. I liked it. I liked it a lot. 
I guess I just never had two-foot-itis and just don't want more 'boat' to maintain. 
I'm also a big fan of the Pearson 'Triton' and her sisters (they all look like my T27 in terms of their 'lines'). 
I am just a big fan of older boats and since I'm a big city red-neck myself (with no "Deliverance" overtones) I just call 'em like I see 'em too. 
The proof is in the pudding though. All of these old boats have 'issues' that need to be addressed otherwise it will be a visit from the chain saw crew and into the dumpster for the whole lot of them. They all require some TLC.
They are not for the faint of heart or unwilling to roll up your sleeves and get your finger nails broken or dirty.
I will concede that omaho5 has identified some of the shortcomings of the T27's construction methods. Backing plates for all deck fittings? I've always got more work to do to keep my old gal sturdy so add that one to the list (which is already pretty long).


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Omaho;

Seeing how you a few years older than me, I will treat you with respect even if you did start sailing years after me.  With all due respect, I would respectfully suggest that you put your glasses on and carefully read what I wrote before you take umbridge. _"By any objective standard" "Cape Dories are crudely built."_ is not the same as my sentence which said, _"By any objective standard,_ *in comparison* _the Cape Dories were pretty crudely built."_ (the bold added for emphasis) The modifier "in comparison" taken in context of the prior sentences means that I was not saying that the Cape Dories were crudely built, as your creatively edited sentence would imply. Leaving the words "in comparison" out of my sentence, alters its meaning in much the same way as leaving the word "not" out of the sentence "Omaho is not an imicile". In the context of the prior sentences, my statement was merely saying that the Cape Dory construction less sophisticated than the Tartan 27. My statement never said that the Cape Dory was crudely built.

I would really like you to explain where you are coming from on some of the claims that you are making.

For example you say _"The T27 has had more deck delamination problems than CD's of any size. This is mostly because of hull to deck construction. "_ 
Unless you are mistaking the Tartan 27-II for the Tartan 27, the hull to deck joint on the Tartan is virtually the same as the Cape Dory. The Tartan 27 deck joint consists of the deck sitting on an inward facing flange that is approximately 3" wide and which was through bolted and (depending on the year) glassed over. The core on the Tartan 27 stops short of this joint and was sealed by the inner glass skin meeting the outer glass skin before the rail and the stanchions were bolted through this uncored, double thickness area. There is a good illustration of this joint in an early Owen Corning Fiberglass Boat building manual which used photos of Tartans in many of their pictures. Some of the early Tartan's had no deck core at all but employed a series of closely-spaced, glassed-in deck frames. This was later changed to the cored deck which stopped short of the joint. The only difference between the Tartan hull to deck joint and the Cape Dory deck joint is that the more rot-prone plywood (at least as the 25's were built) used for the Cape Dory's coring did not stop before the hull to deck joint.

_"Most keel centerboard designs are by their nature prone to issues_. " 
I would agree that a centerboard needs more maintenance, but that is less of an issue than a encapsulated keel which has delaminated.

_"The CD 27 does not have the Atomic four.. has a diesel._" 
Some Tartans have diesels and some have Atomic 4's just like the CD 27's.

_"The wood mast step is /will rot." _
I agree with you that a wood mast step may rot but Tartan 27's do not have wooden mast steps. They were keep stepped masts. The early ones had a cast aluminum maststep which sat on a glassed in transverse frame. The later ones sat on an aluminum channel glassed into the bilge.

_"Rudder post had no bearing originally."_ 
I suppose that the Cape Dory may not have a rudder post bearing but the Tartan 27 rudder post sat in a bronze heel fitting with bronze rudder post thrust bearing at the bottom and if I remember right also had bronze gudgeons and pindles.

And at the crux of all of this, one more time for the record, I would agree that if someone of knowledge blurted out that Cape Dories are poorly built, I would question his opinion. Of course that was not what I said.

Cheers


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Great post Jeff...


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