# Sailrite LS-1 or LSZ-1?



## ereiss (Nov 25, 2002)

Sailrite says the only difference is that the LSZ will do zig-zag. At this time I can't see doing sail work, if that were the case has anyone found a reason to have zig zag other than sail repair or construction? Don't want to be penny wise but a Boat-Buck is a Boat-Buck.

Thank you


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

Although zig-zag and even double-needle stitches might be found on some marine canvas, a single-needle straight-stitch machine should be sufficient. I've been in a marine canvas shop that had about 12 machines, and all were single-needle straight-stitch sewing machines.

You might want to post your question on the sailrite forum and see what Matt has to say.

Sailrite Forum


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

You're right, you need the zig-zag just for sail repair. Both of my parents are upholsterers and neither has ever had a zig-zag machine. The only other time that you mught need it on a boat is if you were making some curtains out of a sheer material you might sometimes want to run a zig-zag stitch along the cut edge before you hem to keep it from unravelling. If you have to pay for 2-3 sail repairs while you own the machine it would just about pencil out to buy the LSZ1.


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## heinzir (Jul 25, 2000)

FWIW, I just bought a new LSZ1 on ebay for $758, shipping included. I ordered it Monday, it arrived via FedEx on Wednesday. It is a brand new unit in the original unopened box, with case, thread stand, full warranty, etc. Same as what you would get if you ordered directly from Sailrite. I haven't had a chance to use it yet but I love it so far; it is the real deal.


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## cookwithgas (Oct 8, 2007)

ereiss said:


> Sailrite says the only difference is that the LSZ will do zig-zag. At this time I can't see doing sail work, if that were the case has anyone found a reason to have zig zag other than sail repair or construction? Don't want to be penny wise but a Boat-Buck is a Boat-Buck.
> 
> Thank you


I recommend the LSZ. I don't do much sail work, but right after I purchased my new sails, a slug caught and I used the winch and RIIIIP! I got some heavy Dacron and sewed a small patch with my LSZ-1 (the blue one) then put a new grommet and it was better than new. I also put zig zag on edges someties to make the piece look better. It's worth the extra money in my opinion. I put the heavy duty balance wheel with the hand crank and did some "Armageddon" sewing without electricity a few weeks ago just to see if I could - it worked great.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

cookwithgas said:


> I recommend the LSZ. ... It's worth the extra money in my opinion. I put the heavy duty balance wheel with the hand crank and did some "Armageddon" sewing without electricity a few weeks ago just to see if I could - it worked great.


I agree. You're already paying what some consider crazy money for a sewing machine- an extra $150 is not a ton. Besides, consider it Murphy insurance. If your life is like my life, if you DON'T get the zigzag within the next month you will have a need for it, and the cost to have someone else sew it will be higher than the cost of the feature.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

99.9 percent of the sewing my wife did (MMR here on sailnet - see her posts about stackpack design and construction) was with a regular sub 200 dollar machine. The rest was a needle and thread.

Here's the kicker - we had a LSZ1 - every time she went to use it the calibration went screwy and required adjustment. 

If you aren't sewing sails and or 10+ layers you just don't need a overpriced cast iron weight.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Our LSZ-1 is the equivalent of a welder for "soft stuff". I use it for things I would not have considered as solutions to "problems" before having its potential. It is much more than a tool for making or repairing sails and covers. It depends on how you process solutions. It has expanded my "tool box" in ways I am very great full I have. The heavy duty balance wheel with the hand crank is a plus. Fabric art is next! Ha!

Down


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

We also have the LSZ. My wife does all of our canvas and is working on redoing the cushions this winter. She also checks each of our sail panels on each sail for thread degradation every winter.

As far as using a cheap machine, thats fine, but the portability of the Sailrite machine copupled with the heavy weighted wheel have made it a must for cruisers who may need to sew without electricity. 

We have had zero probelms with our LSZ1 in 6 years and it has already paid for itself 5 times over just in sail loft expenses.

Dave


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

If you decide on purchasing a Sailrite machine from Sailrite, you might want to wait for a sale.

Also a zig-zag machine is not necessary for cushions.


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## Sumner10 (Dec 10, 2008)

heinzir said:


> FWIW, I just bought a new LSZ1 on ebay for $758, shipping included. I ordered it Monday, it arrived via FedEx on Wednesday. It is a brand new unit in the original unopened box, with case, thread stand, full warranty, etc. Same as what you would get if you ordered directly from Sailrite. I haven't had a chance to use it yet but I love it so far; it is the real deal.


Those are good prices. I'd just call sailrite and ask them if they are authorized dealers so you know where you stand if you have a problem with the machine.

We love ours and have saved thousands and had fun doing lots of projects....

Ruth Canvas Mods Index

Doing all of that sewing it has only gotten a ways out of adjustment once and Sailrite sent me links to videos on how to adjust the timing and the foot feed and a couple hours later we were back in business. If the same thing would of happened with another machine, and it will, we would of been dead in the water for some time. Their videos and support are worth more than a couple hundred dollars and the machine is wonderful to use.

On the need for zig-zag to be honest we have only used it a couple times and could of done without then also. People have fixed sails for years and still do without zig-zag. It just looks prettier and you can do in one pass what would take multiple passes with a straight stitch. It is a big time saver, thus money saver, for professionals.

One option would be go without zig-zag now and then sell the machine later and move up if you just don't have the money now. It probably would not be that hard to sell the machine. I'd rather have the non-zig-zag now vs. some other machine if money was real tight.

Good luck,

Sum

Our 37 Endeavour --- Our 26 MacGregor --- Trips With Both


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

Although lacking personal experience, if zig-zag is merely perhaps nice to have, zig-zag could be yet another source of potential adjustment problems.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

The zigzag mechanism on these machines is simple and unlikely to cause adjustment problems. The timing is what takes careful adjustment (should it go out), and Sailrite makes life a lot easier here by having good documentation.

Zigzag is useful in bag making for bar tacks and I've used it when doing repairs where the original stitching was zig-zag. I'm glad that I have it.

I bought a "clone" from Barracuda, but wish I hadn't gone that route. By the time I added the case, monster wheel, and Sailrite manual I was almost at Sailrite's pricing without the good support or benefits of their v2 improvements (the Barracuda is an older design).

I have a decent home machine too (Pfaff), but prefer using the Sailrite/Barracuda when working with Sunbrella and other heavy materials. The high torque/low speed is great for a amateur seamstress.


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## Sumner10 (Dec 10, 2008)

Alex W said:


> The zigzag mechanism on these machines is simple and unlikely to cause adjustment problems. The timing is what takes careful adjustment (should it go out), and Sailrite makes life a lot easier here by having good documentation..


We also have never had a problem with the zig-zag adjustment and good points about by the time you add the extras you are up to about the same price.

We live in a remote area (Utah canyon country) and their support and parts has proven invaluable for us,

Sum

Our 37 Endeavour --- Our 26 MacGregor --- Trips With Both


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Buy the LSZ. While you may not build a sail, zig zag is very handy for repairs to sails, covers and a variety of other uses. Like many other tools, I don't need the capability often, but when I need it, I have it. In my book, it was a no brainier.

As others have said, I've saved thousands with this machine. BTW- but the monster wheel and the LED light. Other parts can be purchased outside SailRite which tends to be expensive for common accessories like binding guides.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

You might want to look at Defenders machine. It's $500 That's what we have.
JIm


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## Sumner10 (Dec 10, 2008)

Sabreman said:


> ...Other parts can be purchased outside SailRite which tends to be expensive for common accessories like binding guides.


Talking about other parts.....it is best not to cut sunbrella with a knife as the edges then unravel (hemming helps). I modified...










....a solder gun and used it for a hot knife and did most of the cutting for Ruth and there has been a lot.

We finally bought a real...










...hot knife from another supplier as they were cheaper than Sailrite, but did buy the foot from them. We should of bought this a couple years ago. It isn't cheap, but if you start doing projects with...










.... a lot of long strip cuts like we have...










...the hot knife is just so nice. I still use the solder guy for intricate cuts and installing common sense fasteners.

Also we really like using the common sense ...










...fasteners and I have a page....










...the might be of help installing them here...

Ruth Canvas Mods page 21

These projects can be very rewarding,

Sum

Our 37 Endeavour --- Our 26 MacGregor --- Trips With Both


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Ditto with the hot knife. I do use scissors but the knife is better. But go slow.


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

Actually, I prefer to use scissors for cutting fabric for more precise cuts. Since I'm DIY and not a production shop, if appropriate I then use the hot knife to sear the edges of the fabric to avoid unravelling.

Apparently production shops use the hot knife without the foot on a heat resistant table-top because the foot attachment seems to load up with melted material -- essentially my experience.


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## Sumner10 (Dec 10, 2008)

TejasSailer said:


> Actually, I prefer to use scissors for cutting fabric for more precise cuts. Since I'm DIY and not a production shop, if appropriate I then use the hot knife to sear the edges of the fabric to avoid unravelling.
> 
> Apparently production shops use the hot knife without the foot on a heat resistant table-top because the foot attachment seems to load up with melted material -- essentially my experience.


I use the soldering iron...










...on a piece of glass and will either pull the material through it (straight cuts) or push the gun tip through the material if it is a curved cut.

I can cut way faster with the ...










...hot knife with the foot on than I can with scissors and don't have any problem following a straight line with it. We also hem about everything. I'll use it for gradual curves but use the gun for sharper curves or short cuts. I like using them because you cut and you are done, no fraying.

The trick to keeping the foot clear is to cut fast and to trigger the gun on and off. The foot will still get material built up but is easy to flick out. Just trigger the gun on and use a knife tip, a couple seconds does it.

It was hard to spend the money on, but if it broke, don't count on that, I'd buy another as soon as possible. We used it on about all of the Endeavour projects...

Endeavour 37 Canvas Mods Index

Sum

Our 37 Endeavour --- Our 26 MacGregor --- Trips With Both


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

jimrafford said:


> You might want to look at Defenders machine. It's $500 That's what we have.


That is the one that I mentioned earlier.

The major differences between the two machines are:
* the Barracuda (sold by Defender and Amazon) doesn't come with the case. The case is worth the ~$100
* the clutch on the Barracuda slips more easily. Sailrite make a very nice improvement here that is expensive to add on. The "Cuda Crank Wheel" from Defender/Barracuda gets you part of the way there by using set screws to lock the wheel instead of using the stock clutch.
* The Sailrite machine has a lot of internal improvements that aren't immediately obvious and I don't think they change the sewing results, but may allow the machine to last longer. There have a video that shows them, and the Barracuda is identical to the older Sailrite machine that they compare to.
* The Barracuda manual is nearly useless, but at least you can buy the Sailrite one for $10 (online/PDF).

Once you add the case ($125) and Cuda Crank Wheel ($100) the price difference between the Sailrite machine and Barracuda machine is under $200 (less when Sailrite has a sale).

alex


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## harbin2 (Jul 5, 2008)

I'm pretty sure the LSZ-1 machine makes a significantly smaller zig zag than the more expensive industrial machines used to make most of the commercial sails. I'm not sure how significant the stitch size is in sailmaking and repairs.


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## Sumner10 (Dec 10, 2008)

Alex W said:


> ....Once you add the case ($125) and Cuda Crank Wheel ($100) the price difference between the Sailrite machine and Barracuda machine is under $200 (less when Sailrite has a sale). alex


We buy all the time from Defender, but wonder if they stock all of the parts for that machine like Sailrite does. Most are probably interchangeable, but you wouldn't know for sure since Sailrite has made some changes to their machine.

You will need parts if you sew much. So far we have had to replace the following. Sooner or later the needle will hit these parts and you will know it because the thread will snag and start to unravel and bunch up at the needle.










The above you can file and sand smooth again a number of times but sooner or later you need one.










The same with the shuttle above. The needle can hit if, usually your fault, and nick it. I've been able to file/sand/polish ours so far but we now have a spare.










The needle plate on ours finally broke and we had to get another.










The takeup spring will probably also finally break and need replacement. Here is a link to just some of the parts available from them....

http://search.sailrite.com/category/sewing-machine-parts

...and they make a nice kit for cruisers with parts you might need....

Cruiser's Spares for Ultrafeed Sewing Machines

...while away. We bought the kit along with some other backup parts.

There are other small springs and numerous tiny, tiny screws that can be dropped and needed. All in all the machine has been rock solid and we have sewn a lot of projects on it. I'm sure some people have probably not had to replace a thing.

The point is that any of these machines that have forward/reverse, zig-zag, adjustable stitch length and walking feet have a lot of parts in them and sooner or later you might need one of those parts and if so they are just a call away with Sailrite.

Sum

Our 37 Endeavour --- Our 26 MacGregor --- Trips With Both


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

harbin2 said:


> I'm pretty sure the LSZ-1 machine makes a significantly smaller zig zag than the more expensive industrial machines used to make most of the commercial sails. I'm not sure how significant the stitch size is in sailmaking and repairs.


Not having made sails, the following is academic. The LSZ-1 zig-zag width is 5 mm. James Grant's Sailrite sail construction series states that the zig-zag stitch should be 3/16" (or just about 5 mm.) The Sailmaker's Apprentice doesn't seem to mention an optimum width, but it's about 500 pages so the width might be in there somewhere. Don Casey in This Old Boat recommends at least 6 mm.

However, too wide of a stitch could be a snag problem.

While not stated, these widths are probably for two-point, single-step zig-zag. Multi-point, multi-step zig-zag could be wider without the snagging problem. For example, the maximum width for the Sailrite professional, a four-point, three-step machine, is 10 mm.

The widest two-point, single-step zig-zag I've seen is 12 mm for the no longer marketed Sailrite Sailmaker which was based on the Brother TZ1-B652 and has separate feet, feed-dogs and throat-plates for straight-straight-stitch, 5 mm zig-zag and 12 mm zig-zag


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## wmarinecanvas (Dec 13, 2012)

Hello everybody,

As a marine canvas fabricator who started out doing canvas on a cruising sailboat using an LSZ-1 I thought I would throw my two cents in as well.

When I first started doing canvas work using the Sailrite machine I thought that the zig-zag was an absolute necessity for the heavy-duty sewing of marine canvas due to strength of the stitch.

After having returned to life ashore a few years ago I went to work in a sail loft doing custom canvas work and I recently opened my own custom canvas shop here in Annapolis. During my time working in a sail service loft (all repairs, no new sails) I can tell you that for most sail repairs on cruising sails the zig-zag stitch is not necessary.

The zig-zag stitch and the three- or four-step zig-zag that a lot of the industrial machines are capable of is necessary in sail-making more for the even stretch of the sail than for the strength of the seam. Most cruising sail repairs that are done by a sailrite machine are not precision jobs and don't need to be. Especially if your boat is longer than about 35' I would imagine that you'll need to get it to a loft occasionally to take care of the bigger jobs which means that the Sailrite repairs are more of a temporary fix.

Anyway, to sum up, the zig-zag stitch isn't necessary for 99% of the DIY repairs out there but a lot of people think that it looks nice and nautical in which case sure, go for it. Is it worth the $150 extra? I would say only if you plan on doing a lot of spinnaker (or gennaker, screacher, code-zero, etc.) repairs which rely more on the even stretch of the stitching than a big heavy cruising main or genoa does.

Just my two cents.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

I got the LSZ-1 a little while ago, and straight out of the box I thought it was a good machine. I later added their "Monster Wheel", and realized it was a GREAT machine. Although I do use the zz (I am a noob, so no expert) I would put the Monster Wheel as a higher priority than the zz. The machine runs smoother, and deals with varying layups - and thicker layups - more easily. It made a huge difference.

As for the power, as an example, I was working on a thick layup the other day, and the needle got deflected and punched straight though this steel plate









Sumners advice on parts reflects my own. Bought and used all of those...

I would also encourage you to buy from Sailrite. (disclaimer: Just a satisfied customer). As stated, they are very friendly, helpful, and patient. I needed a bit of help to get to grips with the machine, and their manual, videos, and telephone support is unequaled.. Parts do break and get out of alignment; the Sailrite machine is easy for you to repair, tune, and get parts for. And once you start making stuff, having a supplier you can depend upon is well worth it.


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