# Composting heads?



## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Maybe I am not hip/young enough to get it - but have seen a lot of boats for sale recently that have as a selling point - a composting head - not sure I am ready for that -seems to me a traditional head with a holding tank ( that is well taken care of) is still a better idea.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't think people have strong opinions on this. I predict a dead-end thread.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Minnesail said:


> I don't think people have strong opinions on this. I predict a dead-end thread.


That's funny right there. :grin

Want to bet I can predict exactly who will show up and advocate for them. 

For the OP, a properly sized and mantained holding tank suits the most people. There are some, however, that prefer a composter. Then there are those in the middle, who would accept one, if they had limited access to pump out or legal discharge grounds.

Interestingly, I see very few of them. I hear of the unicorn, more than I see them in use.

The upside is this may distract everyone from the anchor chain thread.


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

Minnesail said:


> I don't think people have strong opinions on this. I predict a dead-end thread.


Heh ... laughed out loud for real when I read that.

I've been having some issues with my traditional marine head. I'm guessing the pump valves need replaced or something. However, my experience with traditional marine heads has _never_ been good. It always seems like they siphon water when your under way if you aren't careful to have everything switched correctly. They never seem to want to fill the bowl or legitimately pump out.

In my case, I also have two issues with how my existing head is plumbed. First of, the inlet through-hull is shared with the sink drain. This causes problems in that the pump tends to suck air rather than water. Second, I have no way to dump the holding tank (this isn't an issue, currently, because I can't dump in Lake Erie anyway, and I get free pumpout at the marina ... however, that's something that I'll need to fix before I start offshore trips next fall).

All that as a prelude, I don't know much about composting toilets, but I've decided to install one instead of fixing my existing setup. My reasoning is:
1) Everyone I can find who owns a composting toilet loves it
2) Everyone I've found who hates composting toilets has never had one.

Thus, I've reached the conclusion that composting toilets are pretty nice. But the people who rage against them are raging against the _idea_, and not the actual implementation.

There are certainly some things to be disliked about the "idea". The fact that you have to manually empty the compost and the liquids container isn't terribly appealing. But in my case I've decided to give it a try.

Just my $.02

(Having posted this, I'm now _sure_ that someone who has actually owned a composting head will come forward and change #1 and 2 to no longer be absolutes ... but unless a BUNCH of people come forward, it's still the minority)


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> The upside is this may distract everyone from the anchor chain thread.


NO! I'm gathering lots of useful information by lurking on that thread! (I also have changes planned to my ground tackle ...)


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm hoping we hear from someone using a composting head as an anchor, with or without all chain rode.

A friend has a pole barn without sewer or septic and bought a composter to use in case the weather or bugs are too bad to use the outhouse. Both he and his wife prefer the outhouse, if that tells you anything. I'll be camping there next weekend, if I learn anything I'll report back.

On the other hand the only person I know who has used one on a boat (a woman, btw) thought it was fine.

I'm a bit ooged out by the idea, although I appreciate the simplicity.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> The fact that you have to manually empty the compost and the liquids container isn't terribly appealing.


And once again sanitation at sea is reduced to someone dumping a nasty bucket over the lee rail. I'll pass, I'm in the open valve, flip switch camp.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

cdy said:


> Maybe I am not hip/young enough to get it - but have seen a lot of boats for sale recently that have as a selling point - a composting head - not sure I am ready for that -seems to me a traditional head with a holding tank ( that is well taken care of) is still a better idea.


So as to not disappoint anyone , I'm here to say I've used one for five or six years now, and think it's the best head for smallish cruising boats with two to three crew. I'm happy to answer any questions.

BTW, they are far more common than some people seem to think. Your example of seeing a lot of boats for sale with composting heads installed is further testament to their growing popularity.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

We have one aboard our 27 footer. I considered a traditional head but after I installed the water heater there wasn't room for the holding tank. Also I would had to punch another two holes in the boat and run all sorts of hoses. The composter ties down to some cleats and an air hose connects to the back. Easy Peasy. Used it for 4 months with no odor, no insects.


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## KayakerChuck (May 4, 2017)

I'll be building a composter for my 22' ODay. Not enough room for a holding tank system, and Ontario really does not like potties.

I'd be happy to buy one, but I have some serious space constraints, and a whole wood shop to play in


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

We've been using an airhead composter for several years in our 30 foot Pearson. Works fine for us, but it's probably not for everyone.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Having recently installed an Airhead composter and removed the original head..we are in a holding pattern as to fill in the thru hauls openings, use the holding tank for other purpose ie.,adding additional battery capacity or fuel tankage..or..keep all original parts and thru hauls for resale value of the boat if potential new owner isn't enamered with a composter


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Ran into a an old friend on the dock and we got chatting. He had converted to a composting head. He was pleased with it. He was carrying a bag of feces looking for a trashcan.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Bleemus said:


> Ran into a an old friend on the dock and we got chatting. He had converted to a composting head. He was pleased with it. He was carrying a bag of feces looking for a trashcan.


You should have asked to see it. If it was done correctly, you'd be pleasantly surprised to find what was in the bag.

When we dump my Nature's Head after about four to six weeks of full-time use, the main bucket looks and smells like rich soil. There is nothing offensive or untoward about it.

Seriously Bleemus; the next time ask your friend to see what's in the bag. I predict you'll be, as I say, pleasantly surprised.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

aa3jy said:


> Having recently installed an Airhead composter and removed the original head..we are in a holding pattern as to fill in the thru hauls openings, use the holding tank for other purpose ie.,adding additional battery capacity or fuel tankage..or..keep all original parts and thru hauls for resale value of the boat if potential new owner isn't enamered with a composter


I too kept the old system in place for a season after first installing our Nature's Head. I did it b/c I wanted to be sure it worked as advertised, and as all the users were telling me. Needless to say, we ripped out all the old plumbing and holding tank the following season.

I have not re-glassed the thru hulls though. One thru-hull is now destined for a wash down system (if I ever get around to it&#8230. The main one is quite large, and is in a nearly-impossible spot for me to get at from the inside to do a proper re-glass job. So&#8230; I've just capped and sealed it off. In theory a future owner of our boat could switch back relatively easy.

Recovery of all that useful space was/is one of the main reasons I went with a composter. The other was to stop being time limited by my holding tank. In the space of the tank and plumbing I can now carry two inflatable kayaks, a spinnaker, tools, epoxy box and other miscellaneous stuff. It's been a huge plus for our life on board.

The whole resale question is a good one. Composters definitely aren't for everyone. But whether it would impact the resale value is hard to say. For the right buyer it would _increase_ the value. All depends on your potential market, I suppose.

In my case, I don't care about future owners. I make changes to my boat to suit me. But I realize this approach won't work for everyone.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I've come to realize, if one refuses to learn how to properly install and use a traditional head and holding tank, a composter is easier. Many seem to refuse to learn or buy boats where the previous owner refused and then consider all holding tank set ups to be stinky. A properly installed and used holding tank will never stink. Period.

Composter users needs to know only two things: pee in the bottle and stir your crap in the dirt, when you're done. The owner needs to know a few more things on how to dispose of the contents. Perhaps it's easier to learn, because it's so different from shore toilets. The holding tank methods are similar to shore, but not the same. If you just flush it till you don't see it, your head will stink. Guaranteed. Probably clog too.

Composters have their place and I've used them in remote places, where it's pretty clear they are necessary. However, until they start appearing at the Four Seasons, the concept is going to seem like camping. If that's cool with you and it's the experience you want for your guests, two thumbs up. You may infrequently have guests and not care.

With the steadily increasing environmental discharge restrictions, I'm sure boaters are being forced to the concept out of necessity. No problem with that. Others just can't learn how to manage a holding tank. Composter is for them too. Just flat out preferring one, without an outside motivator, is hard for me to relate to.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Serious question: in no discharge zones, is it legal to empty the pee bottle overboard? For the record, I have no qualms about anyone doing so.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

colemj said:


> Serious question: in no discharge zones, is it legal to empty the pee bottle overboard? For the record, I have no qualms about anyone doing so.


My understanding is: No (I assume you're referring to US law here).

Technically, composting heads aren't legal anywhere in Canada either. Has to do with the fact that the law says a head must only be emptied from a deck fitting &#8230; or something like that. Seems like they were trying to block portapotties as an option.

For the record Minn, I removed a perfectly operating standard marine head when I went to a composter. It was a good one too; a Skipper Head II. Worked great (and I sold it for nearly the price of my Nature's Head). So I guess you'll have to amend your assertion that composters are for people who "refuse to learn how to properly install and use a traditional head."

There's nothing wrong with standard marine heads in general. They can work just fine. But I agree, they are more difficult than a composter.

BTW, the heads you used in "remote places" are not the same as the marine composters we're talking about &#8230; at least I've never seen one on land that separates urine from feces and relies of desiccation as the main processing mechanism. I know parks use the other kind of composters, but I've never seen a separator-type. I've spent a lot of time in the back country. Maybe you can find a link to the ones you're talking about.


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

capttb said:


> And once again sanitation at sea is reduced to someone dumping a nasty bucket over the lee rail. I'll pass, I'm in the open valve, flip switch camp.


This is an interesting (and seems to be a key) point of debate between the pro and anti composting camps.

In particular, the word "nasty". Everyone who has tried to convince me against composting toilets has used the word "nasty" (or a synonym) whereas the people who own them have consistently pointed out that (if installed correctly) they are never nasty.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> Technically, composting heads aren?t legal anywhere in Canada either.


?But is it legal?

Yes. Composting toilets are legal marine sanitation devices in coastal (salt) waters in Canada, and all waters in the USA (including fresh water).?

https://compostingtoiletscanada.ca/marine-composting-toilets/


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

aa3jy said:


> ?But is it legal?
> 
> Yes. Composting toilets are legal marine sanitation devices in coastal (salt) waters in Canada, and all waters in the USA (including fresh water).?
> 
> https://compostingtoiletscanada.ca/marine-composting-toilets/


I can't get to Transport Canada website right now. Seems to be down. Last time I read the regs it specified the need to have the only means of pumping out to be some sort of deck fitting. Maybe that was for no-discharge zones like the Great Lakes and inshore within 3 nm?? If this has changed, then that's great news.

I don't mean to scare anyone off composting heads in Canada. I'm not aware of ANY water cops ever questioning the use of these heads. Heck, I'm not aware of any enforcement issues around any marine heads on recreational cruising boats. I think it's a technicality in the regs or legislation that, to my knowledge, is not enforced.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> However, until they start appearing at the Four Seasons, the concept is going to seem like camping. If that's cool with you and it's the experience you want for your guests, two thumbs up. You may infrequently have guests and not care.


Last time I stayed at a Four Seasons (granted it was a long time ago, so things may have changed) I don't remember having to manually pump my toilet into a tank located under the bed. I really see no difference in explaining to a guest how to use a composter vs how to use a marine toilet. Actually the composter is way easier, pee into the front poop into into the back. They don't have to be stirred every use. No worries about not putting anything into it that might clog it, go ahead and use as much toilet paper as you want, it helps dry out the mix. No warnings not to put anything in the toilet that you have not eaten first, no pump ten times after you don't see anything in the bowl.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

That article says that urine must be disposed of on land or at an appropriate distance off shore. I suspect it is illegal to do so in a no-discharge zone.

Mike, is that your only toilet? One thing about composting toilets that concerns me are those times when I have been ill - either puking or diarrhea. One could hope to puke in a wastebasket or overboard, but there may be times when there won't be soon enough. Diarrhea just isn't going to happen in a wastebasket or overboard on our boat.

So what then? Usually, these aren't one-time loads - when they occur, it could be several times during a day, or even multiple days. Wouldn't that destroy the compost biome? Then you are stuck with a bucket of ick until you can get to a shore facility that can handle it?

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

miatapaul said:


> Last time I stayed at a Four Seasons (granted it was a long time ago, so things may have changed) I don't remember having to manually pump my toilet into a tank located under the bed. I really see no difference in explaining to a guest how to use a composter vs how to use a marine toilet. Actually the composter is way easier, pee into the front poop into into the back. They don't have to be stirred every use. No worries about not putting anything into it that might clog it, go ahead and use as much toilet paper as you want, it helps dry out the mix. No warnings not to put anything in the toilet that you have not eaten first, no pump ten times after you don't see anything in the bowl.


You realize that some marine toilets are just push the handle like at home? At most a button? I don't want it to happen, but I'm pretty sure ours could handle a sanitary napkin, I know it has taken baby wipes like they were TP. We definitely don't warn about TP - just use what you need.

Mark


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

colemj said:


> That article says that urine must be disposed of on land or at an appropriate distance off shore. I suspect it is illegal to do so in a no-discharge zone.
> 
> Mike, is that your only toilet? One thing about composting toilets that concerns me are those times when I have been ill - either puking or diarrhea. One could hope to puke in a wastebasket or overboard, but there may be times when there won't be soon enough. Diarrhea just isn't going to happen in a wastebasket or overboard on our boat.
> 
> ...


If you are ill then just add more of the desiccating material should take care of any moisture. So if your sick and you have a wet movement then just throw a handful of coconut core (or whatever material your using) on top of it.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

colemj said:


> Mike, is that your only toilet? One thing about composting toilets that concerns me are those times when I have been ill - either puking or diarrhea. One could hope to puke in a wastebasket or overboard, but there may be times when there won't be soon enough. Diarrhea just isn't going to happen in a wastebasket or overboard on our boat.
> 
> So what then? Usually, these aren't one-time loads - when they occur, it could be several times during a day, or even multiple days. Wouldn't that destroy the compost biome? Then you are stuck with a bucket of ick until you can get to a shore facility that can handle it?


Yes, it is my only head. I've heard this question raised before. All I can tell you is, in six years it has never been a problem for us. Nor have I heard of any other compost head user who reports it as a problem. And yes, in that time my spouse and I have dealt with diarrhea on board. Never pretty, but no problem. It just means we toss a little extra coir in, and likely dump a bit earlier. Not a big deal.

Puking &#8230; hasn't happened. My spouse gets seasick, but has always managed to deal with it without having to resort to that (unless she's not told me). I don't get seasick. None of very infrequent guests have ever puked in the head. Might happen, but a few pukes into the head won't be a big deal. Again, just toss in some extra coir and dump if need be.

The thing to realize about composting heads is they take a lot to fill them up b/c no water is needed to flush them. It's all the water (and urine) that fills a standard marine head. The chunky bits, even the wet ones, don't count for much volume.

I suppose you can construct any number of scenarios which could lead to yuck. I can easily (and from painful experience  ) relay ugly scenarios with standard marine heads. That doesn't mean they don't work. It just means, like anything else, including a composting head, they can break down.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

colemj said:


> You realize that some marine toilets are just push the handle like at home? At most a button? I don't want it to happen, but I'm pretty sure ours could handle a sanitary napkin, I know it has taken baby wipes like they were TP. We definitely don't warn about TP - just use what you need.
> 
> Mark


Sure some are, but not many. I doubt a sanitary napkin is going to make it, unless you have unusually large and straight lines. Heck a large wad of toilet paper can jam up in a joker valve something all have, with the possible exception of the Lavic (not sure as I have never taken one apart). Sounds like you have been lucky with your system.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Reasonable point that the Four Seasons don't have marine flush heads either. However, our electric mascerating one button flush heads seem nearly identical to a guest. The only thing they need to know is to keep flushing long after the waste is gone. A Vacuflush or Lavac would be even more familiar, like an airplane. They have no idea where the waste goes in either the boat or the Four Seasons.

Ultimately, my hotel reference was only to point out that composters are far from mainstream, even if boaters are adopting them for reasons I've stated: no-discharge, can't manage a holding tank or just seem to prefer them. The first two I get, the latter, as I said, I just don't relate to.

I'm certainly not saying one shouldn't have a composter, I thought I made that clear. However, I believe the un-indoctrinated will find a one button electric head and holding tank to seem more natural and home-like than having to separate their pee/poo, which is more camp-like. Nothing wrong with that, just a consideration.

Anyone torn out their septic system at home and installed composters? I'm not trying to be critical. I'm only pointing out that they will seem foreign to guests. If it's cool with you, it's cool with me.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

miatapaul said:


> Sure some are, but not many. I doubt a sanitary napkin is going to make it, unless you have unusually large and straight lines. Heck a large wad of toilet paper can jam up in a joker valve something all have, with the possible exception of the Lavic (not sure as I have never taken one apart). Sounds like you have been lucky with your system.


Systems. I've owned 6 different toilets on 3 different boats and have never had a clog. Have never paid any attention to TP or its amount used. Our current electric toilets have pretty powerful macerators before the joker valve, so I don't know how they would even clog with TP. Our previous 4 manuals never did.

I hear about TP head clogs, but can't figure out why. I understand other things clogging them, but I've never had a guest not understand instructions to only put TP in the toilet, and nothing else.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

MikeOReilly said:


> I suppose you can construct any number of scenarios which could lead to yuck.


Those were the only two I ever wondered about. My only experiences with composting heads have been outhouses, so my questions were of curiosity, not of argument.

Maybe one more question: what happens if you have an explosive event - does it go where it is supposed to, or is there a big cleanup? For ours, we just flush with water until things are clean, but water would be bad for composting. Just dry wipe?

Sorry for the indelicacy, but it is unavoidable with this topic.

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> .....I hear about TP head clogs, but can't figure out why. I understand other things clogging them, but I've never had a guest not understand instructions to only put TP in the toilet, and nothing else.


Clogs come from one common scenario. Solids are left in the waste line and settle back down, sometimes even around the joker valve, holding it closed or clogging the waste line. Heads with waste lines that rise to an elevated tank behind the cabinetry or to a vented loop are most susceptible.

Loving hearing that your guests are so compliant. Teenagers can be the most difficult. The very simple solution is to flush sufficient clear water to push the waste to the tank. It can take quite a bit, as you know.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> It can take quite a bit, as you know.


We are lucky with how the boat builder designed and placed our heads. 18" from the joker up to a vented loop, and 18" down to the thruhull. When we are in areas that require the use of the holding tank, then it is another 18" to the tank. The hose is 1.5", so the entire volume to the tank is only 1.5qts. If we are flushing overboard, the volume needed is only 1 pint.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

colemj said:


> Those were the only two I ever wondered about. My only experiences with composting heads have been outhouses, so my questions were of curiosity, not of argument.
> 
> Maybe one more question: what happens if you have an explosive event - does it go where it is supposed to, or is there a big cleanup? For ours, we just flush with water until things are clean, but water would be bad for composting. Just dry wipe?
> 
> Sorry for the indelicacy, but it is unavoidable with this topic.


Sorry Mark, I didn't mean to sound defensive. I took your query as you wrote it. I just meant that there are any number of possible scenarios one could think of that could lead to problems - just like any boat system. In practice, these things have never been an issue.

Explosive events &#8230; I understand. Yes, sometimes I get a little over-splash on the bowl. We keep a little spray bottle beside the head as a urine wash, but it works to do any clean up that is needed.

A bit of wash water won't really affect the head. But in general, you want to keep as dry as possible - but not too dry. Finding and maintaining the right balance is one of the things people do have to learn about with these heads. It's not hard, but it is different than a standard marine head.

BTW, I used to put TP down our standard marine head. Never had a problem, but we are always modest in our usage.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

I think overly harsh potty training as a toddler may account for some of the "nasty" crowd's opposition


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I didn't intend to offend by calling your bucket Nasty, in future I'll refer to it as a Honey bucket.


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## aenlic (Sep 14, 2017)

I'm a strong proponent of 'composting' heads (mine is an Airhead), and I think the initial huge turnoff comes with the misleading name. (It was for me, really.)

These are NOT composting heads, they are heads which produce compostable material, big difference! I had a composting toilet in the 70's, and it was quite the 'pay toilet' in terms of work and mess required.

'Composting' toilets, regardless of brand, are all the same in that they (a) separate liquids from solids and (b) drop the solids into a container partially filled with peat moss or coconut coir, and (c) have the user turn something which mixes the new solid into the rest of the contents.

I filled the solids container living solo on my trawler in 3.5 months, with NO ODOR problems. The liquids can be dumped into a regular toilet onshore or a marine toilet on board, or otherwise disposed of discreetly. ;-)

These toilets don't have the need for freshwater or the odor which I find in my ElectroScan head from the seawater.

There are other threads on this topic which have a lot of information and even more strong opinion, but this is my experience, hope it helps.

aenlic


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

These threads get pretty funny. "Explosive event,....", Mark. Sounds like something even an enlongated bowl Kohlor toilet, can't handle.  

I've owned and installed more heads that I can remember. The reason we're gong to a composting head is simply that we cruise in a No Discharge Zone, and that restriction is growing. Soon the whole coast will follow.

You guys that are often in the islands or cruising in less restricted areas, likely don't need to use your holding tanks, at all. 

Do you use pump out facilities often? 

Few holding tank systems are capable of long term storage. You'd need like a couple hundred gallon capacity for flush water, to have guests onboard for a couple weeks, and keep a regular marine toilet happy without it turning in a Chernoble nuclear waste experience (I know,..). 

There is nothing simpler than overboard discharge (we lived with that for decades), where the amount of flush water is of no consequence so you can keep the system clean and odor free(that's the only way as many have said).


I still remember the more crowded harbors in the islands. A few smelled pretty bad. Like some folks swear you can't hear their running generators(as I hear them, clearly-far off), some people will swear it's no big deal pumping overboard in closed waters, even as the odor of raw sewage hangs in the air. 

Science debate aside as to the pollution effect, you can tell if boats are pumping overboard if a few are around. 

Who is breaking the rules? We have. Truth is, a pump out facility isn't often handy if you leave the harbor on the coast of Maine. And the offshore limit to pump overboard is often several hours away. 

We'll install a composting head (and learn the new systems), for our own peace of mind. I've heard from enough users, friends and people like Mike here, to realize it can be done well enough. I'll try not to be a vocal proponent, after my conversion,...  

Here in Maine a few people are doing away with out dated septic systems in shoreline zoning areas and installing composting toilets to save 10's of thousands for new septics designs that are regulation. 

Or they can add additional beds in another building, and satisfy their existing septic restrictions, by adding a composting toilet. 

Plus a composting head allows some buildings to exist shoreside. Then a much simpler septic system can be had for 'gray water' only. 

Yeah, these are vacation homes, 'camps' as they're called, not the Four Seasons. But the definition, camp, fits most cruising sailboats, to my mind. 

If I don't want to see the camp on the shore pumping sewage out into my anchorage, it stands to reason, I shouldn't be doing it.


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## sesmith (Jan 24, 2013)

We put a C-Head composter in our boat a year and a half ago. It's been a great addition. Our previous Jabsco marine head had only a 10 gal tank. It left us always looking for the next pump out. I hated the thing due to the maintenance, issues with clogging, etc...just never bonded with it. When I finally pulled it, I had brand new trident hoses on it, and a new pump assembly on it, so it worked as perfectly as you can get a manual Jabsco unit to work. We don't miss it a bit. 

The C-head uses 1 gal containers for the urine. I keep 3 on board and rotate them through. So, at least every 3 days I have to find something to do with the accumulated urine. We either dump it at a rest room, find a spot on land when cruising in remote areas, or dump outside the 3 mi limit, when we've been there. With that constraint, we can go a month before we have to worry about what to do with the compost. Most of our trips are 2-3 weeks, so I have so far just brought it home and buried it in the yard.

We just spent a weekend at the Annapolis show. We hit brokerage cove, as well, and were almost knocked down by the head smell in a lot of the boats. Even some of the newer used boats at the main show had a hint of head smell in them. I know that marine heads can work well and be odor free...at least that's what I hear. You sure couldn't convince me that after being in the used boats there. My wife just mentioned today that she was so glad we put the composter in, after being at the show last week.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TomMaine said:


> These threads get pretty funny. "Explosive event,....", Mark. Sounds like something even an enlongated bowl Kohlor toilet, can't handle.
> .....
> 
> You guys that are often in the islands or cruising in less restricted areas, likely don't need to use your holding tanks, at all.
> ...


Well, if you are overly fond of street food in small Central/South America towns, like I am, explosive events are the occasional price one pays. Kind of like hangovers, only you don't know you are going to have one at the time of imbibing.

Come to think about it, we suffer more of these events after eating in US chain restaurants than off of the street in Central America.

No, outside of the US, there are no facilities and we don't use our tanks at all. Inside the US, we have mostly been in the Chesapeake and East Coast Florida, where pumpout facilities are pretty much at every fuel dock - so we can pump out whenever needed.

BTW Tom, I remembered that I have been carrying around a Japanese flush cut saw for 25yrs and have never used it. I bought it moons ago because 1. I had never seen nor heard of one before, and 2. I owned a house and didn't worry about collecting things I knew nothing about. Don't really know how it ended up on the boat, but most likely because it is small, light, and buried in a mess of other tools when we moved aboard.

Worked the charm on those bungs! Once I found it, of course. After failing miserably with a chisel (my wood chisel set is primarily used as destruction tools on aluminum and fiberglass in lieu of a hacksaw or hole saw, so you can imagine their condition), I was sitting there staring at my mess thinking that someone should make a thin saw with fine in-line teeth in a single direction that is bendy enough to put right up against a finished work....... and then I remembered!

Mark


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## PaThomas123 (Mar 29, 2011)

My take on it is we put our Natures head in over two years ago. will never go back to a holding tank. When its time to empty the solids just dump it in a trash bag easy as it can be no bad smell at all the urine tank is a different matter I empty it into a toilet and it can smell when you are pouring it out we carry air deodorizer in the pee bag along with vinegar to swish it out and keep it clean.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Yea urine container is no treat, I have a home built setup that I put in some Thetford (so?) Treatment and it does not smell at all, just about an ounce or less in the gallon jug words. I use it mainly because it was on the boat when I bought it.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## bletso (Oct 17, 2013)

A teaspoon of raw sugar in the urine bottle when empty really tames the urine smell when dumping it later. (The little brown packets compliments of Starbucks, etc).


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Or just add a little vinegar to the urine bottle after you empty it. 

The urine bottle shouldn't be a problem if you empty it daily. Urine is sterile, so just dump it over the side (unless there is some silly legislation in your area preventing this...).


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

copacabana said:


> Urine is sterile ...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I didn't watch the vid, but urine is sanitary from a healthy individual, not sterile. 

I understand the non-discharge rules around here to regulate the emptying of onboard storage and the composter pee bottle would count. I don't think doing so matters ecologically, if done in a prudent location, which does not require being 3 mile from shore. Three miles is not a scientific distance, its just the limit of the State's jurisdiction, so they chose it. 

Some argue that you can urinate or defecate directly into the water, such as when swimming and not violate the non-discharge law. I think that's technically correct. I also think they'll get you for some other public nuisance law if they catch you doing so near other people. Just my opinion.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

The amount of bacteria in urine is negligible. Your skin and hair probably carry more germs. There is no reason to drag a urine bottle to a public toilet. Each can and should do as they see fit (and the law may come into play for some), but I empty my urine bottle over the side every day. No qualms about it.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

I built a composting/desiccating potty and have been using it for a few years. Just a container with toilet seat and sealed sliding trap door.
6" peat moss because I have it available by the truck load.
2" limestone chips for a base filter again because I have it available by the truck load
An air filter between peat and limestone, to keep the peat and other solids out of the limestone again because I have it available.

Pee and poop go in the same place, pee percolates through the peat, filter and limestone then slowly odor free to the bilge until pumped out by the bilge pump.

Solids are removed and bagged along with the peat, filter and limestone at fall haul-out for disposal in the marina dumpster. New peat, filter and limestone in the spring.

If I used the boat more the potty may need cleaning more often, but for now once a year is enough.

I thought about adding a vent but have not needed one, the only odor when the trap door is open on a really hot and humid day is peat moss.


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

copacabana said:


> The amount of bacteria in urine is negligible. Your skin and hair probably carry more germs.





Minnewaska said:


> I didn't watch the vid, but urine is sanitary from a healthy individual, not sterile.


Haha ...

Have Doctors copacabana and Minnewaska ever studied the case of Typhoid Mary?

The world is so slow to change ...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> ......urine is sanitary *from a healthy individual*........





BillMoran said:


> Haha ...
> 
> Have Doctors copacabana and Minnewaska ever studied the case of Typhoid Mary?
> 
> The world is so slow to change ...


Some are slow to read.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

copacabana said:


> The amount of bacteria in urine is negligible. Your skin and hair probably carry more germs. There is no reason to drag a urine bottle to a public toilet. Each can and should do as they see fit (and the law may come into play for some), but I empty my urine bottle over the side every day. No qualms about it.


Not probably &#8230; definitely. It's basic human biology.

Skin, mouth, hair &#8230; just about any part of the external body carries a far greater bacteria count than urine from healthy individuals.

It is virtually impossible to find something 100% sterile, but urine is pretty close. If you're concerned about bacterial loads from urine, then for g-d sake, don't ever go swimming or even touch another person


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> Some are slow to read.


I apologize for my previous statement being rude and/or insulting. It's a character flaw I've been trying for many years to remedy. It's often amazing to me that I was able to construct that response and send it and not realize until _after_ that I was being an *******.

The point I was trying to make is that while mainstream science for many years believed that urine was sterile (and thus sanity), this topic is one that is up for debate. Urine is demonstrably _not_ sterile, but (as MikeOReilly pointed out) it's difficult to know what constitutes "sanitary" ... I know of no study that has evaluated the impact to an ocean or lake biome that dumping a urine bucket overboard has. Similarly, I've seen no such studies as to whether the amount of naturally occurring microorganism on your skin/hair/etc wash off in any volume that would alter a lake or ocean biome.

The relative problems that might or might not be caused by dumping urine into any body of water are almost certainly dependent on the number of individuals who are doing so. As the population increases, practices that were previously benign are almost certain to become problematic. A large portion of the communities who have or are currently struggling with sanitation issues usually did not fail to plan for sanitation, but simply planned their sanitation in a manner that failed to account for an increase in use.

The reference to Typhoid Mary is an interested one, not because she was not a "healthy individual" but because the problems she caused were a _direct_ result of her insistence on adhering to a previous code of sanitation that more recent science demonstrated to be insufficient. Statements such as "urine is sterile (or sanitary)" have far-reaching implications because people take them as absolutes, whereas the ability for urine to cause sanitation problems is actually dependent on a number of factors.

One of which is (exactly as you state) the health of the individual. The problem here is that most individuals do not know they are ill until symptoms present, and many illnesses will not present symptoms until the individual has had ample time to spread the disease (in some cases, weeks or even months). Again, this motivated the reference to Typhoid Mary, as she _never_ had symptoms, and thus refused to believe that she was harboring (or spreading) any disease.

We live in a world where people expect unattainable levels of cleanliness. The fact that a building can hardly exist without hand-sanitizers mounted everywhere is evidence to that. (The most humorous thing I've seen recently are the signs in the bathrooms at my office that actually describe a complex process of using a paper towel to open the bathroom door ... as if the other doors in the office are magically sanitary, and those paper towels have no chance of accumulating germs) However, the absurdity of one extreme of the argument does not make the other extreme less absurd. Finding sanitation practices that are reasonable for any given situation is tricky.

Sanitation is a complex topic. One (I believe) undeserving of simplifications like "urine is sanitary from a healthy individual." To take my views on this to the conclusion relevant to the original thread topic: When and where you can or should dump urine over the side is probably not well understood by sanitation experts. My personal view is that if a toilet is available, I'm going to err on the side of caution and dispose in the provided sanitary system.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

BillMoran said:


> ......When and where you can or should dump urine over the side is probably not well understood by sanitation experts.


On this point, we agree. Little study has been done on such small quantities of discharge. The common 3 mile limit is simply regulatory authority. As Typhoid Mary and other examples you've given are just anecdotal points, I offer another. The Caribbean anchorages are all dumping everything overboard continually. I do not hear of rampant infection and disease.

To be perfectly clear, I do not advocate this. Although, I do advocate a better study of what is safe, because it's impossible to imagine that recreational boating discharge isn't adequately diluted and/or killed off in any sizeable body of water. The average person doesn't contemplate the actual volume of water in these areas against a gallon or two of waste. The waste just grosses them out and they get apoplectic over it. The truth is, ocean water is full of bacteria, decomposing organic material and animal waste already. Again, I'm not advocating unregulated discharge.



> My personal view is that if a toilet is available, I'm going to err on the side of caution and dispose in the provided sanitary system.


Ironically, in many municipalities, the liquid waste goes from the toilet to sewer system and almost directly into the ocean/bay/river, especially during heavy rain storms. They attempt to retain the solids and even that doesn't always happen.

Sure, some more modern systems do a better job, but this is the real pollution issue. There are hundreds of thousands of gallons of partially treated, even untreated waste being dumped daily into single water bodies. Dumping a gallon of pee into trillions of gallons of water is ecologically balanced IMO. But, I acknowledge that my opinion doesn't matter. I would like to see some science.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

_"Altogether, the members of the human body's microbial ecosystem make up anywhere from two to six pounds of a 200-pound adult's total body weight, according to estimates from the Human Microbiome Project."_

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/40600/title/The-Body-s-Ecosystem/

Bill, _et al._ No part of the human body, or indeed no part of the planetary biosphere, is "sterile." There are bacteria and other critters everywhere, and the human body is a terrific host for billions. Most are benign, some are positive, and a few are negative.

Urine is not sterile. But the bladder is an organ that carries a far lighter load than most places in the body. This is what the science tells us right now. Might be found to be wrong in the future (all scientific truths are contingent on current information), but unless we discover whole new types of organism that have been previously unknown to science, a pretty safe fact is that urine from health individuals carries a far, far lesser bacteria load than almost every other part of the body. And this certainly includes places like mouths, skin and lungs.

So, fretting about bacteria loads from urine going over the side is simply unwarranted and unsupported by any science even remotely understood. It's a bit like the insanity we see around some pollution controls where we chase the last part-per-trillion of some nasty chemical. Why? Because we can now measure it - not b/c it does any actual harm.

I'm not in any way advocating the whole-scale dumping of any chemical or biological load. Human arrogance has often led to the easy conclusion that we can do whatever we want to the ecosystem, with no ill effects. Those chickens continually come home to roost, with climate change being the current big one.

&#8230; but fretting about bacterial loads in urine is a waste of fret.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

If only Tartan, Catalina and Hunter made composting heads. Then we could fight to the death.

Bob Perry on Design?

...It’s a very interesting bowl form with a full-length chine and fairly high deadrise sections throughout. It’s a beamy ****tter...

...I’ve never seen an interior layout quite like this one. It’s daring. The crapper is in the pilothouse with settees port and starboard, flushing station to starboard and toilet paper station to port....

...No question about it, this is an unusual-looking bog with a fair amount of windage. That will affect the dumping performance, but that’s why this is a composter...

(Apologies Bob)


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> On this point, we agree. Little study has been done on such small quantities of discharge. The common 3 mile limit is simply regulatory authority. As Typhoid Mary and other examples you've given are just anecdotal points, I offer another. The Caribbean anchorages are all dumping everything overboard continually. I do not hear of rampant infection and disease.


That's a tough one. I think the issue with the Caribbean is the massive amount of water movement. I think that you'd essentially have to look at the average increase in disease, etc throughout the entire Atlantic ocean. To me, it's a case of "the population doing the action has not yet reached a volume that creates a problem." Which may be your point.



Minnewaska said:


> To be perfectly clear, I do not advocate this. Although, I do advocate a better study of what is safe, because it's impossible to imagine that recreational boating discharge isn't adequately diluted and/or killed off in any sizeable body of water. The average person doesn't contemplate the actual volume of water in these areas against a gallon or two of waste. The waste just grosses them out and they get apoplectic over it. The truth is, ocean water is full of bacteria, decomposing organic material and animal waste already. Again, I'm not advocating unregulated discharge.


The overall problem here, is what happens if have just flushed my feces overboard in the anchorage at the same time someone is diving on the anchor? As mentioned, even in such close quarters it's unlikely to be an issue, but a close encounter like that is certainly gross. From my perspective, even if I don't make someone ill, I'd rather not be responsible for grossing them out either.

But, of course, that's an extreme example ... someone dumping directly into the anchorage and having the bad luck to do so at exactly the right time probably only happens to those with the worst possible karma. It's interesting as a thought experiment to consider the problem as density of boats increases ... but again, an anchorage isn't really capable of getting crowded enough to become a problem, although marinas are.



Minnewaska said:


> Ironically, in many municipalities, the liquid waste goes from the toilet to sewer system and almost directly into the ocean/bay/river, especially during heavy rain storms. They attempt to retain the solids and even that doesn't always happen.


I live in Pittsburgh, so I'm familiar with that issue, but I don't feel it's of any more practical importance than my anchorage story. It's like saying that since seatbelts can't save 100% of the passengers from accidents, why wear them ever? In the end, it's about reduction to a point where it's manageable. Because 100% elimination probably isn't possible. And certainly isn't possible with the current technology+infrastructure.



Minnewaska said:


> Sure, some more modern systems do a better job, but this is the real pollution issue. There are hundreds of thousands of gallons of partially treated, even untreated waste being dumped daily into single water bodies. Dumping a gallon of pee into trillions of gallons of water is ecologically balanced IMO. But, I acknowledge that my opinion doesn't matter. I would like to see some science.


In the end, we have to put some level of trust into the regulating bodies and the scientists advising because most of us don't have the resources to do our own research. Obviously, we end up misled at times, but when you look at the overall, we usually get decent guidance. At least that's my take on things, and I try to tune my behavior to always be a little better than the public at large ... I guess I'm just like that.

It's interesting that the day before I noticed the sanitation discussion here, I tripped across this video: 



 It's hardly surprising as I've been seeking out information to help validate the various projects I'm planning for my boat this winter ... the composting toilet being just one.

Having watched it hardly makes me an expert, but I think anyone who finds this discussion interesting enough to have read this far will find that video an interesting addition to the chatter.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Marine waste discharge threads always ends up with some people that advocate using the oceans as their waste holding tank. 

Is that ever a good idea? I don't think so.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> Marine waste discharge threads always ends up with some people that advocate using the oceans as their waste holding tank.
> 
> Is that ever a good idea? I don't think so.


I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. Unlike Bill's response suggests, no one is advocating discharge in an anchorage. It was only offered as happening and there is no connection to rampant disease.

Still, what makes burying waste in the earth any different from a distant place in the ocean that has no impact? In a way, I see the broad distribution of the ocean as making more sense than concentrating waste the way we do ashore, in spectic systems and landfills.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Still, what makes burying waste in the earth any different from a distant place in the ocean that has no impact? In a way, I see the broad distribution of the ocean as making more sense than concentrating waste the way we do ashore, in spectic systems and landfills.


So you are pumping out, only in a 'distant place in the ocean'? Where's that?

I think it would be more honest to say that pumping waste overboard is a necessary evil(I accept that), and that the effects, on the broad oceans, are minimal. In harbors or coastal areas, the effects are greater.

But to say we should be pumping our waste into the 'distant ocean' instead of into septic systems or municipal waste treatment systems, is ludicrous.

Give it up.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> So you are pumping out, only in a 'distant place in the ocean'? Where's that? ....


That precisely my question, Tom. I would like some science around this issue of where dilution or other factors are safe and appropriate. Based on the amount of duck crap our marina wakes to on the dock each day, our waters are dealing with this already. I thought your quote said using the ocean was never a good idea, which I read to imply at any distance.

My hypothesis is the that in the right proportion of waste to ocean, the waste will disperse, pathogens die and the matter decomposes faster and more completely than pouring it into the ground. Certainly a harbor won't meet the grade, nor any confined body of water. Somehow, I doubt it requires 3 mile of ocean and tens of trillions of gallons of water to dilute and decompose a few gallons of waste, even from dozens of recreational boats, let alone the pee bottle that got this started.

Septic systems are easily identified sources of pollution, particularly to drinking water supplies. Municipal treatments plants, even though substantially better than years past, are still pouring massive amounts of nitrogen into our confined waters. In many cases, untreated waste still makes it back to the water. That's not acceptable either. I only offer it to point out that the gallon of waste one saves to dispose of ashore or bury in the ground is not obviously better than discharging in open water. Exactly what should define open water has not be adequately determined and I just push back when folks say never.


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. Unlike Bill's response suggests, no one is advocating discharge in an anchorage. It was only offered as happening and there is no connection to rampant disease.
> 
> Still, what makes burying waste in the earth any different from a distant place in the ocean that has no impact? In a way, I see the broad distribution of the ocean as making more sense than concentrating waste the way we do ashore, in spectic systems and landfills.


I think this _finally_ brings us back to the original question ...

Modern composting systems have demonstrated that they are capable of processing a significant amount of waste in a safe, sanitary manner (compared to more traditional septic systems).

That doesn't make them perfect. But, to my mind, it makes it seem like proper composting may provide a solution to large scale waste handling superior to what we currently have.

Unfortunately, getting such a system into wide usage would require massive changes to infrastructure, since you can't move dry composting material through pipes. It would also require behavioral changes by a large population, which is probably the larger challenge.

The original question suggested that a traditional head with holding tank was superior to a composting head. I, personally, disagree. I think that composting units (while not perfect) are superior. Let's look at common scenarios:

* For everyday use: both systems work well and are mostly oderless if properly maintained. However, a composter has less bits to wear out and break down. It also takes up less room on board than a holding tank.
* At a well-equipped marina: both systems are emptied into municipal waste (which hopefully handles the waste well)
* At a poorly-equipped marina: Without a pumpout, a holding tank will have to be dumped. The composting system can still be manually emptied into municipal waste
* At a remote, but populated anchorage: Composting system's liquids need to be emptied more often than a holding tank but a holding tank will (overall) need to be dumped more often, so it's essentially a tie
* At a super-remote anchorage: Holding tank will have to be dumped. Composting liquids will still be dumped, but solids can be buried, thus dodging potential gross-out factors and probably being more sanitary. Compost liquids _can_ be taken ashore and buried in a hole to improve sanitation. Slight edge to the composting system.
* On the open ocean: Both systems need to be dumped overboard. In theory, the composter's solids are more sanitary at dump time, so maybe a slight edge to the compost system.

So, from my viewpoint, the composting system is a slight step up. It's not perfect, but I still think it's superior in theory ... and everyone I've talked to who owns one seems to agree.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bill, let's just agree to disagree. There are too many misstatements of fact in your post to want to spend the time sorting it all out. It starts with the assertion that anyone declared a holding tank to be superior, followed by the fact that what we call composters do nothing of the kind, they only desiccate. Then it really goes off the rails. Most, including me, have just been comparing and contrasting issues, not declaring one or the other to be the only right answer.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

BillMoran said:


> So, from my viewpoint, the composting system is a slight step up. It's not perfect, but I still think it's superior in theory ... and everyone I've talked to who owns one seems to agree.


I don't disagree with your assessment Bill, but for me, the reason a composting head is the best option has little to do with it being environmentally superior. I think it lends itself to be, but it depends on many factors. Mostly, it depends on how the final product is managed.

As I've written before, the reason we went for a composer was:


To stop being time limited by our holding tank. No more need to find a way to pump out. I can remain in small, remote anchorages until the food or water runs out.
To recover large amounts of storage space. In the space of the holding tank and related plumbing I now store kayaks, sails, tools and other equipment. 
To improve the security and safety of our boat. Far fewer things to go wrong with the head, and fewer holes in the boat.
To improve the simplicity of our head system. There's nothing to go wrong with a composter, and maintenance is minimal.
To save money over time. Never have to pay for another pumpout.

A composting head does start the composting process, and as such, lends itself to being more environmentally friendly. But it mostly depends on how the end product is managed. For me, it's not about being green.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Mike was all over this idea as hate replacing joker valves. Presented to builder I wanted one head composting and one electric. He refused. When asked why he answered with one word “passage “. Average boat does passage with 3 or 4 people. For us passages are 8-16 days. For people South Pacific they maybe longer. Given space when leaving is at a premium as boat is filled to the max with stores, spares and boat stuff and then the extra foulies, clothes, harnesses and added stuff from crew volume for head fillers means something isn’t put on the boat. Even in absence of significant weather 6-10’ for days is common. I’m all over crew to stay hydrated. Eating is entertainment and socializing on passage. Output is increased compared to same number on board when not on passage. With thru hulls open no imperative on holding tank capacity. In fact they are empty. Yes see no holding tanks means more volume for stores but traditional set up means one less thing to deal with on passage. On passage the day is full. Getting weather, running the boat, trying to sneak in enough sleep etc. Have no interest in emptying the pee pot. No interest in negotiating the interior and companionway with it when bumpy. Have no interest in trying to dump it without losing it in a seaway. Could see a rig where a small pump just dumped it for you when a float switch kicked off or a similar mechanism. But for now understand why I’ve yet to see one on boats snow birding back and forth from Eastern Caribbean. Suspect it’s the same for the South Pacific sailors.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

outbound said:


> Mike was all over this idea as hate replacing joker valves. Presented to builder I wanted one head composting and one electric. He refused. When asked why he answered with one word "passage ". Average boat does passage with 3 or 4 people. For us passages are 8-16 days. For people South Pacific they maybe longer. Given space when leaving is at a premium as boat is filled to the max with stores, spares and boat stuff and then the extra foulies, clothes, harnesses and added stuff from crew volume for head fillers means something isn't put on the boat. Even in absence of significant weather 6-10' for days is common. I'm all over crew to stay hydrated. Eating is entertainment and socializing on passage. Output is increased compared to same number on board when not on passage. With thru hulls open no imperative on holding tank capacity. In fact they are empty. Yes see no holding tanks means more volume for stores but traditional set up means one less thing to deal with on passage. On passage the day is full. Getting weather, running the boat, trying to sneak in enough sleep etc. Have no interest in emptying the pee pot. No interest in negotiating the interior and companionway with it when bumpy. Have no interest in trying to dump it without losing it in a seaway. Could see a rig where a small pump just dumped it for you when a float switch kicked off or a similar mechanism. But for now understand why I've yet to see one on boats snow birding back and forth from Eastern Caribbean. Suspect it's the same for the South Pacific sailors.


OK&#8230; Sounds like you've got the right system for you. That's good.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Just looked at my latest response … it could be interpreted as being snarky, and that wasn’t my intention OB. I just meant that clearly a composting head would not be appropriate for your needs. And that’s just fine. They’re not for everyone. 

They’re not intended for use with more than three adults for long periods. And they certainly require a different kind of maintenance which some find unacceptable. So be it… 

I have no issue with direct discharge in areas of good flow/volume. Offshore is the perfect location. For inshore use, especially in confined anchorages or marinas, I think direct discharge is a bad idea. This is where I really appreciate our composter.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thank you Mike for being a gentleman. Still think generic laws are nonsensical. One can be up in Maine where there are no clam or mussel beds being harvested. There the tidal flow is massive and effluent minimal but your thru hulls are closed as law requires. Then in Roadtown with no tidal flow nor much rain for much of the year and effluent from dirt houses and boats dumping into a confined bay but the thru hulls are open. Yes one is an open sewer and the other pristine but that would be little changed by closed thru hulls in Roadtown or open in Washington County Maine.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

outbound said:


> Thank you Mike for being a gentleman. Still think generic laws are nonsensical. One can be up in Maine where there are no clam or mussel beds being harvested. There the tidal flow is massive and effluent minimal but your thru hulls are closed as law requires. Then in Roadtown with no tidal flow nor much rain for much of the year and effluent from dirt houses and boats dumping into a confined bay but the thru hulls are open. Yes one is an open sewer and the other pristine but that would be little changed by closed thru hulls in Roadtown or open in Washington County Maine.


I completely agree OB. I think these kinds of arbitrary regs. are silly, unnecessary, and damage the credibility of regs. that do make sense. Dumping overboard in areas of good flow with low sewage loads is environmentally benign. Dumping in areas of restricted volume/flow, especially if there is already a significant sewage load, is not. This is why some form of holding tank is needed on most cruising boats. But direct discharge where appropriate is just fine - better than fine.

As I said (have always said), "going green" is not the reason I went with a composter. And I don't think it's a prominent attribute in any of the big-three's advertising (Nature's Head, Air Head or C-Head). There are significant other benefits to cruisers like me, which makes them the best head (for cruising like me), but they ain't about being more environmentally friendly.

In some ways I wish these heads weren't generically labelled "composters." They can and do (given time) compost, but their main function for cruisers is the separation of solids and liquids, and the desiccation of the chunky stuff. Call them whatever you want, they work well for the target audience.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

I just poop out the starboard side into the ocean better than any head!:2 boat:


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## Totuma (Jul 27, 2017)

As someone that is considering a composter - if I can figure out how to accomodate the increased height - I hope that ya'll don't spiral into bickering and please keep real world observations and opinions coming! 

We've got a WC Headmate waaay forward under middle of V. It has the wrap-around holding tank, so it's a very efficient and tidy install. But having to disassemble the v-berth for use, is less than ideal. Granted, for me, it's a once a day affair and maybe I should live with that. I'd prefer to put a head at starboard bottom of companionway steps and not wanting to lose real estate to a full-on 'closet', I'm thinking a base cabinet to hide it with a chart table on top (flip up lid, bifold doors, etc.) might be a solution. My issue with composters is that they are relatively tall (compared to conventional, at least). Their appeal is not having to deal with tank piping and thru-hulls.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Totuma said:


> ...My issue with composters is that they are relatively tall (compared to conventional, at least). Their appeal is not having to deal with tank piping and thru-hulls.


Totuma, are the C-head also too tall? I don't know much about them, but thought they were physically smaller than Nature's/Air Heads. Their holding tanks are about 1/2 the volume so I assume their cases are also smaller. Perhaps a CH might work in your space?


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## Totuma (Jul 27, 2017)

Won't fit under settee nor where head is now in V. IIRC C-head is 18" tall. The headmates are really compact. I hate giving up a little of the settee but the slightly taller 'cabinet' would still allow access to wet locker and actually a place to set charts etc would not be a bad idea. Dunno... hope to study it more carefully once on the hard later this year.

If N'Head or A'Head are listening - make a unit 16" tall! I know you'd lose capacity, but that's ok.


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## aenlic (Sep 14, 2017)

Totuma said:


> Won't fit under settee nor where head is now in V. IIRC C-head is 18" tall. The headmates are really compact. I hate giving up a little of the settee but the slightly taller 'cabinet' would still allow access to wet locker and actually a place to set charts etc would not be a bad idea. Dunno... hope to study it more carefully once on the hard later this year.
> 
> If N'Head or A'Head are listening - make a unit 16" tall! I know you'd lose capacity, but that's ok.


You make a good point. I've spoken at length with Geoff (the inventor, who still handles 'tech support' calls) when I was getting the parts to 'update' my vintage Airhead, and he's a smart, reasonable (and nice) guy.

Here's the page on airhead dimensions:

Details & Dimensions - Air Head Composting Toilet | For Boats, RVs & Cabins | Air Head Composting Toilet | For Boats, RVs & Cabins

You can't really shrink the seat/trapdoor unit, but it *would* be possible IMO to create a smaller solids holding tank. I suggest you give him a call and make your case for this being a profit-making new offering.

aenlic


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## KayakerChuck (May 4, 2017)

Totuma-

That's exactly why I'll be building a head this winter. My little 22 O'Day has a very specific amount of space, and 16" is the max height for the head if my other half is going to be able to use it. 

There is a market.


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## SanJuanTruant (Jul 6, 2017)

BillMoran said:


> Heh ... laughed out loud for real when I read that.
> 
> I've been having some issues with my traditional marine head. I'm guessing the pump valves need replaced or something. However, my experience with traditional marine heads has _never_ been good. It always seems like they siphon water when your under way if you aren't careful to have everything switched correctly. They never seem to want to fill the bowl or legitimately pump out.
> 
> ...


Hi Bill,

I would agree with your thoughts on composters. I have one and I don't mind it. It was an alternative that we decided on because the holding tank was too small. The best advise is to dump the urine bucket at least 2x/day. The solids compartment has yet to smell which is the biggest surprise to me. The composting actually works and works quite well.


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## aenlic (Sep 14, 2017)

One available option which is very hard to find on the Airhead site is the addition of an NPT outlet on the liquids tank. Another is the availability of a one-gallon liquids tank, which minimizes the footprint nicely.

I got a one-gallon tank with tap recently, but am still working out how to drain it into my system with no pump. It may be less of an issue for other setups. This would remove the only downside I've found with the Airhead.

aenlic


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The fact that people are surprised that composting heads don't smell like #2 is somewhat emblematic of why traditional holding tanks are not maintained properly or understood. 

First, #2 stinks because your gut is full of anaerobic bacteria that live in the waste. Anaerobic means they only survive in oxygen depleted places. Once exposed to the air, they die and no longer stink. This does not take terribly long, but it's not instant either. The media in the composters must allow for good air permeation, which accelerates the process of killing off the anaerobic bacteria. This does not mean that the waste itself, in a composting head, is decomposed at all. In fact, decomposition requires a certain amount of moisture for the non-smelly aerobic (thrive on oxygen) bacteria to live and work. These composting heads should really be called desiccant heads, because they seem to dry the contents. They shouldn't smell, but the contents are still predominantly raw waste.

Same odor concept with a holding tank. You need to provide sufficient air to the tank for these bacteria to die. You must also clear them out of the waste hose, which are not exposed to air, whereby the bacteria will thrive and permeate the hoses. You also need to avoid putting things in the head that will skim over the top of the tank contents, causing an air barrier, such as oil.

I'm not suggesting which you should have, only that most folks don't seem to understand these systems. None of them should stink. Poor design and procedure will make any of them stink.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

The urine bucket is the most stinky thing about my Nature’s Head. But it’s really not that bad (to me). We tried the baking soda and vinegar treatments. Now all we do is give the urine zone a couple of squirts of fresh water from a spray bottle after each use. This keeps it odour-free (except during the actual dumping). 

We dump our urine bucket every two to three days, and we carry a second tank in cases of need. The NH bottle is a bit larger than 2 gallons. This works well for us.


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## sesmith (Jan 24, 2013)

Adding a dribble of Thetford marine holding tank treatment to the urine jug keeps the smell away (even when dumping it). We also keep a spray bottle of vinegar water on the boat and give the urine catch part of the head a spray after each use.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

sesmith said:


> Adding a dribble of Thetford marine holding tank treatment to the urine jug keeps the smell away (even when dumping it)......


I would want to know what's in it first. While I think small amounts of waste discharge in proper open water is perfectly natural and probably biodegrades better than burying it in the ground (I truly want to see this studied), I also think that tank treatment chemicals should not be dumped into the ocean at all. It's entirely possible that one of the ways that environmentalists got away with some of the draconian restrictions we have is because of these chemicals. I would ban tank chemicals entirely and get more realistic on where recreational discharge is appropriate. 3 miles offshore is silly and not based on science.

Further, chemicals are 100% unnecessary in a holding tank. In fact, chemical disinfectants are counterproductive, since they impede natural aerobic non-smelly bacteria from beginning the decomposition. If a composter urine bottle were to require chemicals to prevent odor, we'll give this win to the holding tank. However, I think they could be emptied more often and not require this.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

sesmith said:


> Adding a dribble of Thetford marine holding tank treatment to the urine jug keeps the smell away (even when dumping it). We also keep a spray bottle of vinegar water on the boat and give the urine catch part of the head a spray after each use.


I've tried adding sugar, baking powder/soda, vinegar, even deoderizer. Nothing seems to work as well for us as just spritzing with fresh water after each use. The only time I smell anything is the few seconds between detaching the bottle and getting the cap on, and then during the actual pour. Otherwise, no odour. We dump when the bottle is nearly full.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Mike, I have a spray bottle with a solution of vinegar and water (about 1:4) beside the toilet. I've found that spraying the urine area of the bowl after use keeps everything clean (especially the part with no access, below the holes where the urine goes) and keeps the bottle fresher as well. Urine is going to smell like urine though, but you only have to smell it the moment you dump the bottle. I also dump it every day after sundown, regardless of the level, followed by a quick vinegar rinse, which also reduces any smell.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

copacabana said:


> Mike, I have a spray bottle with a solution of vinegar and water (about 1:4) beside the toilet. I've found that spraying the urine area of the bowl after use keeps everything clean (especially the part with no access, below the holes where the urine goes) and keeps the bottle fresher as well. Urine is going to smell like urine though, but you only have to smell it the moment you dump the bottle. I also dump it every day after sundown, regardless of the level, followed by a quick vinegar rinse, which also reduces any smell.


Sounds like a good approach copacabana. I have tried the vinegar thing at various concentrations and just found that it made no real difference compared to a simple fresh water spritz after every use. The only time I smell anything is the few seconds between capping, and during the actual pouring.

But if vinegar works (as it seems to for many people), then that's great. I just found it doesn't make any measurable difference to my nose.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not sure we need to skid off into a biology discussion, but one person’s urine is not necessarily the same as another. Diet, hydration, vitamin intake, medications, etc, can significantly alter this and likely accounts for the different experiences noted. Nuff said.


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## MikeH007 (Jun 7, 2011)

Everyone you know who has the composting head loves them. Most posts seem to confirm that fact. Have not seen a post from someone wh regrets going waterless or did and then changed back to the onboard septic tank. I think for most owners plumbing on board as well as in our homes is a mystery (venting,siphoning, back up, busted fixtures, etc) not to mention the physical acrobatics of repairs. As we get on in life, aka getting older, DIY gets tedious if not just plain not doable. Then the cost of marine plumber expertise will cry for a composter for sure.

So, for me, and any boat owners expecting to have guests is critical including sailors and boaters who are mostly day boaters, never too far from a dock or marina. Many may even have on board head but only for urination and sea sickness. Relatively few have composting facilities in their homes. So, will they politiely decline an invitiation knowing of the composter; if they accept will they return in the future? 

At least one post offered an answer education and instructions and spray bottle. Make it all about the enjoyment of cruising. Well, I guess I just convinced myself. Now I better check to see of the checkbook agrees or when it will agree.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Hope it works out for you Mike. If you run into any questions along the way, try posting here. There are a number of experienced owners and users here who are glad to help if we can.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I don't think the composting head(at least a commercially made) one is any more difficult to use than a manual marine head. And only slightly more difficult than an electric head.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

There are people who didn't like and/or had bad experiences with the desiccating heads. Know of one boat who were ready to throw theirs overboard after a Transpac with a crew of four. For most boats, with occasional use or just a couple, a desiccating head will probably work fine. They do need a constant electrical source and through deck vent as the vent fan should run constantly according to the dealer I talked with. It's a small motor with very low drain so easily handled by a small solar panel or plugged in at the dock. The problem for me is footprint and height. Would have to build a stool to climb aboard.

These are not composting heads, btw. A composting head takes much longer to reduce the input to dirt than these heads have the space to store the product for the length of time needed to compost. I'm sure some get by with dumping the solids contents in the shrubbery but to be legal it should go in a municipal sewage system or a septic system.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

roverhi said:


> There are people who didn't like and/or had bad experiences with the desiccating heads. Know of one boat who were ready to throw theirs overboard after a Transpac with a crew of four. For most boats, with occasional use or just a couple, a desiccating head will probably work fine. They do need a constant electrical source and through deck vent as the vent fan should run constantly according to the dealer I talked with. It's a small motor with very low drain so easily handled by a small solar panel or plugged in at the dock. The problem for me is footprint and height. Would have to build a stool to climb aboard.
> 
> These are not composting heads, btw. A composting head takes much longer to reduce the input to dirt than these heads have the space to store the product for the length of time needed to compost. I'm sure some get by with dumping the solids contents in the shrubbery but to be legal it should go in a municipal sewage system or a septic system.


Maybe you should talk to someone besides that dealer. I've used a C-Head for years now, first in a motor home and then in a travel trailer, and I've never hooked up a vent fan. I just run a vent hose up high to the outside. If I ever decide to add one, I've been told they do sell some that hook up to small solar panels.

I work away from home in the California desert, and face some pretty severe conditions for any system (they're predicting 117 degrees F tomorrow). My C-Head has served me well so far, anyway. Of course, I stay by myself and I'm only here about half the time, because I work 12-hour shifts.

A few things I've learned: If I don't add enough peat moss or I let the peat moss get way too dry in the summer heat, the C-Head stinks to high heaven. It's like walking down an alley behind the local 7-11 and discovering some homeless person's gift to the world baking in the sun... Don't let the fact that it's a desiccating head fool you. Similarly, getting it way too wet makes it smell like a truck has parked on a septic tank and broken through. Fortunately there's a wide, wide expanse of normal between the two extremes - where except for a few minutes immediately after use, my C-Head mostly smells like damp peat moss.

Toilet paper: I used to keep it in a small can next to the C-Head, with a spring-loaded lid and a plastic-bag liner. That was fine in the winter. But in the summer, I had three choices: I could leave the AC on while at work; I could empty the can every day; or I could come home to the stink of used TP cooking in 100+ degree weather. So I started throwing the TP into the C-Head - where because it usually coasts along on top of the peat moss instead of stirring into it, it stank anyway. But at least a lot of the odor went up the vent. The solution came when I figured out how to deal with the urine bottles...

Unfortunately, in desert temperatures a plastic milk jug with urine in it starts stinking within a few hours. I tried sugar, I tried tea tree oil, I tried vinegar... nothing really worked, until one day I grabbed a bottle of 'Formula 409 Antibacterial Kitchen All Purpose Cleaner, Lemon Fresh.' 409 for short. I found out one or two squirts of 409 on the urine trap not only keeps it clean and unstinky; it also keeps the jug under it tamed. And the jugs are reusable after simply being rinsed with water, instead of needing to be attacked with detergent/bleach/mystic incantations.

Next logical step: aiming a squirt of 409 at used TP after tossing it into the C-Head, before stirring things up. Bingo! End of stinky TP problem.

Yes, I realize the fact that 409 works so well proves it's bad for children, birds and bunnies and probably the entire planet, and it should be immediately banned. I don't care. They can have my 409 when they pry it from my hot, sweaty fingers...


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

My wife for some years worked for a composting toilet system manufacturer and most issues are from people using harsh chemicals to clean them and such. Newer waterless urinals use a cartridge to pass urine through to render it benign and work quite well even in high use public restrooms.

They even now have composting systems for high rise apartments and office buildings that work very well and the byproduct is a lawn and flower bed fertilizer similar to Milorganite which Golf Courses all over seem to prefer over many others.

Some even have a foam flush feature now that makes the composter even more conventional in its use and however it does use 3 to 6 ounces of water per foam flush :





Based on experience with land based composting systems since the 1980's I'd have no qualms about putting one in a boat or RV. If I was forced to give up my septic system at the house I would seriously consider a composter instead of shelling out $50,000 to install a lift station in order to tie into the city sanitary sewer.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> I don't think the composting head(at least a commercially made) one is any more difficult to use than a manual marine head. And only slightly more difficult than an electric head.


I'd say they are easier to use and explain to a complete neophyte.

Nature's Head and Air Head are both bigger than most standard marine heads. I think C-heads are smaller. In all cases the commercial ones are designed to manage two, perhaps three crew full time. More than that will overwhelm the system. You can go for shorter periods with larger numbers of users.

Both NH and AH recommends the use of a fan vent. It helps with the drying. The draw on my NH doesn't even register on our amp meter, but it does run 24/7. AH/NH have larger holding tanks than CH. CH gets dumped more often, which is why (I assume) it doesn't require active venting.

These commercial marine heads mostly desiccate, but they do begin the composting process. At the end of my cycle, which typically runs about five weeks (four to six is what we usually get), the end product looks, smells and feels (yes feels) like rich potting soil. There is nothing offensive about it. A quick tip into a bag, which is then dumped over the side if we're offshore, or into the forest if we're in a wilderness anchorage, or into a land dumpster if we're unfortunate enough to be in an urban area.

I'm sure the technical legality of dumping into the local garbage stream will vary from place to place. I can absolutely state the stuff that comes out of my composter is far less nasty than used baby diapers or feminine hygiene products.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

A very small solar panel is usually all that's required to keep a land based composting toilet systems muffin fan going. If the composting process goes anaerobic then other issues could be experienced which is why a true composting system uses forced ventilation.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

I didn't realize US jurisdiction codes for permanent housing allow composting systems.

That's the main philosophical justification for restrictive zoning regs, going that way would turn land use patterns upside down in lots of places.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

john61ct said:


> I didn't realize US jurisdiction codes for permanent housing allow composting systems.
> 
> That's the main philosophical justification for restrictive zoning regs, going that way would turn land use patterns upside down in lots of places.


Lindstrom put them in his house in Cambridge, Massachusetts when he moved to the US and folks near to the factory in Massachusetts plus round about in New England have been using them for years. Schools, factories, etc are using them too. Its not just about the unitized National Park and remote location free standing units. Just get the right size composter for your intended volume. Lindstroms Clivus does not require a separate urine receptacle and actually has a timed shower head in the tank to help keep the compost moist despite the constant fan forced aeration. Many use the compost tea that results to nurture their flower beds.

Abby Rockefeller installed them in her personal home many years ago and is quite adamant that conventional flush toilets that waste water and the associated sewage treatment plants are an environmental nightmare should be abolished. As I understand it she has an indoor green house area that has the composter tea plumbed right into it and guests have no clue that the planters all around them are constantly being fed with the tea.

Here is the link to inquire about residential projects:
Clivus Multrum, Inc. Residential Project Contact Form


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Lindstroms Clivus systems look great, but don’t appear to be designed for small cruising boats like we’re talking here. Aside from Air, Natures and C Heads I’m also aware of Sun-Mar which makes a marine/RV version. 

Unlike the others, Sun-Mar doesn’t require separation of urine, but it also uses a heater to evaporate the liquid, which requires a lot more power. This one is only designed for one to two people, full time. For these two reasons, I decided against the Sun-Mar, but for some folks it might work.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> Lindstroms Clivus systems look great, but don't appear to be designed for small cruising boats like we're talking here. Aside from Air, Natures and C Heads I'm also aware of Sun-Mar which makes a marine/RV version.
> 
> Unlike the others, Sun-Mar doesn't require separation of urine, but it also uses a heater to evaporate the liquid, which requires a lot more power. This one is only designed for one to two people, full time. For these two reasons, I decided against the Sun-Mar, but for some folks it might work.


I looked at a Downeaster 32 that had a Sun-Mar installed in it. Never did get to the point of asking about power consumption, but it did look like it would use a lot. Biggest issue I saw with the install was the thing was so tall, had to really climb up on to it. It even has a step to get up on to it, but I think they were the only game in town.

I looked at a house that had a bad septic system and I was going to put in composting toilets but the bank would have no part of it.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

MikeOReilly said:


> Lindstroms Clivus systems look great, but don't appear to be designed for small cruising boats like we're talking here. Aside from Air, Natures and C Heads I'm also aware of Sun-Mar which makes a marine/RV version.
> 
> Unlike the others, Sun-Mar doesn't require separation of urine, but it also uses a heater to evaporate the liquid, which requires a lot more power. This one is only designed for one to two people, full time. For these two reasons, I decided against the Sun-Mar, but for some folks it might work.


Its about the grand daddy of modern true composting systems (circa 1939) that are pollution free and what one might consider the bar to aim for. Power consumption for the aeration fan (the only really must have full time electrical item) can be from a single 8" X 16" solar panel such as is sold to be put on a cars dashboard to keep the battery topped off. A system could probably be down-sizable for medium sized boats but yes not really for a small boat such as a trailer sailor. The home systems are considered to have capacity for 4 to 6 people with an 90% reduction rate of human waste so it may be years before a full sized home unit will need to be emptied of the compost with the added plus of being able to deal with paper and kitchen scraps too. The original system in the US used a bilge pump to transfer treated urine to its output tank once the transition to nitrite and nitrate was completed so would lend itself to dockside or offshore tea disposal with no real environmental impacts.

They do have units that are air lifted to remote location and back so they can be portable to a degree but the bigger point is that if a composter is well thought out and working properly neither the compost or the tea should be odoriferous or unsanitary as Clivus has proven over the past 80 years.


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## Totuma (Jul 27, 2017)

We sail a Flicka and intentionally did NOT buy one with enclosed (closet style) head at bottom of companionway steps. It's a small boat that seems much more ample, largely due to the 'open' plan belowdecks. Ours does have a legit WC head, buried under a square cushion dead center of v-berth. Arrangement doesn't work for me at all and i have no interest in blue stuff wafting up, pumpouts, etc... of course that's totally subjective.

I saw two options: first is to place a composter at bottom of steps, but build as short a cabinet as possible around it - sort of a chart table. That would actually be handy, but again, it reduces length of settee, and requires cutting the hull liner and other 'permanent' mods which I might regret. The second, which we're going to try (next week, when back at boat) is to place it under the forward (now open) v-berth. Looks like a C-Head 'minijon', which is only 15" tall, will squeek-in. It's similar to having a porta-pottie, but hoping the smell doesn't exist, and I won't have to be lugging PP to the waste station. The locker formerly occupied by head will be a great place to store our inflatable kayak or other supplies. If C-head is a success, I'll build some nice wood doors for the opening, or perhaps just a curtain of come sort. The V-shape means there'll be useful space on either side of the head.

This morning we christened our C-Head. Based on noob attempts I can say it seems like a total winner. Simple, easy to clean if needed, and our option works with a bag in bucket, so whenever we need to, just grab the bag and start over. Looks like women will need to 'learn' to hit the diverter, but don't see it being a problem. Unit itself includes a cover for the toilet opening, and between that, the bag (which could be folded over between uses if desired), and the cedar shavings, I can't imagine there will be any odor at all. Fingers crossed.

If anyone else is in a micro-cruiser or space compromised, let me know and as things progress I'll share pics of install.

... can't believe i'm sharing our bowel habit on the internet... LOL


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

troy2000 said:


> roverhi said:
> 
> 
> > There are people who didn't like and/or had bad experiences with the desiccating heads. Know of one boat who were ready to throw theirs overboard after a Transpac with a crew of four. For most boats, with occasional use or just a couple, a desiccating head will probably work fine. They do need a constant electrical source and through deck vent as the vent fan should run constantly according to the dealer I talked with. It's a small motor with very low drain so easily handled by a small solar panel or plugged in at the dock. The problem for me is footprint and height. Would have to build a stool to climb aboard.
> ...


Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! We have had our Air Head for about nine months and have been pleased with its use and performance but that said, the urine tank was pretty overpowering when it was time to empty. 
It would be removed from its holders and one would tear up before you could get the cap screwed on. ? then you would haul this stinking (for us) cocktail of vinegar and urine to the marina heads to dispose. I would hope no one would be in the stalls as I removed the cap and upended the foul liquid in the bowl. 
Though we used the vinegar religiously, there was a slight offensive odor around the head that was sort of a salad dressing gone very wrong. After switching to the 409 as you suggested, there is a smell of peat or garden soil that is totally acceptable with a slight finish of 409 scent. 
What can I say? Huge improvement. Thank you! I will share this secret with others who use some sort of desiccating Head. They really are a terrific way to handle human wastes aboard. No overboard discharge, no stinky sewer tank under one's bunk and fewer holes in the boat.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

aa3jy said:


> Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! We have had our Air Head for about nine months and have been pleased with its use and performance but that said, the urine tank was pretty overpowering when it was time to empty.
> It would be removed from its holders and one would tear up before you could get the cap screwed on. ? then you would haul this stinking (for us) cocktail of vinegar and urine to the marina heads to dispose. I would hope no one would be in the stalls as I removed the cap and upended the foul liquid in the bowl.
> Though we used the vinegar religiously, there was a slight offensive odor around the head that was sort of a salad dressing gone very wrong. After switching to the 409 as you suggested, there is a smell of peat or garden soil that is totally acceptable with a slight finish of 409 scent.
> What can I say? Huge improvement. Thank you! I will share this secret with others who use some sort of desiccating Head. They really are a terrific way to handle human wastes aboard. No overboard discharge, no stinky sewer tank under one's bunk and fewer holes in the boat.


Glad to hear it works for you.

By the way, I ran out of 409 last week (actually, the bottle's squirt pump stopped working). So I grabbed some Scrubbing Bubbles, and may as well have used water. I was surprised, because that's my usual go-to, all-purpose cleaner. I'm sure there are other products out there that do work, but I think I'll just stick to the 409...


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## bshock (Dec 11, 2012)

I just installed a Nature's Head on my Beneteau 361. So far so good after three weeks. I'm going to try the 409 idea with the liquids jug. Thanks Troy!


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## SteffanieS (Jul 23, 2018)

I read about half of this thread before jumping to the end. I'll read the rest when I have more time. 

I'm planning to install an Airhead on my Cal 3-30 because the previous owner removed the marine head and had the thru-hull removed and hole glassed over. He "didn't want to carry around someone's poop in my boat." He installed a porta-potty that was never used. He rarely sailed for more than a couple of hours.

We have given this boat a different life. ;-)
We sail all day, sometimes for an extended weekend, and don't return to a marina until it's over. The porta-potty has been used. I empty it properly when it's over. I hate it.

Enter the composting toilet. I'm sure I'm going to love it!


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## Totuma (Jul 27, 2017)

Once comment about the 409 - the active antibacterial is toxic to fish/marine life. Not to be a naysayer, and in fact we're going to try it with our C-Head. But go light on it and be careful where you dispose of the liquid waste :wink


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

I like the C Head I installed on my boat.
The one draw back for me is toilet paper. I find it doesn't get mixed in with the medium very well & I'm not going to put "scented" paper it the trash. As others have said pour a couple teaspoons of sugar into the empty urine tank, it works.

Dumping urine overboard, one can legally pee over the side of a boat. Guess you know which side of the fence I'm on.


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## neoxaero (Feb 18, 2010)

I've been researching these things for awhile and I'm trying to get the wife on board with the idea. It would be nice to free up a big area under the settee for more storage space, or a location to install the water maker.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

That's exactly what I did. Where a 22 gallon holding tank used to be has been replaced with a 22 gallon water tank.
I have a small boat so having 40+ gallons of water is a major plus.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

neoxaero said:


> I've been researching these things for awhile and I'm trying to get the wife on board with the idea. It would be nice to free up a big area under the settee for more storage space, or a location to install the water maker.


This was one of the two main reasons we switched over to a composter. The space recovery AND the freedom to never worry about having to find a pump out station (we were in the Great Lakes at the time), were what drove our decision.

In the space the used to hold a sewage tank, we now carry two inflatable kayaks and all the equipment, more boat spares, epoxy repair supplies, plus our asym spinnaker. Huge improvement, plus it's great not hauling around a tank of toxic sludge.


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