# Security While Cruising In Dangerous Places



## shamrock6 (Dec 16, 2009)

I'm in the middle of reading "Pirates Aboard!: Forty Cases of Piracy Today And What Bluewater Cruisers Can Do About It" by Klaus Hympendahl. It's a great book about cruisers getting attacked in the Caribbean and South America. 

This appears to be an increasing problem for cruisers judging by the situation the British couple is in that was kidnapped off the coast of Tanzania in October.

I'm not looking for a debate about guns, but additional security precautions that can be taken...

Dogs were not mentioned in the book, but I imagine that must be a deterrent

Has anybody had and relevant experiences?


----------



## SVPrairieRose (Oct 10, 2009)

No experience yet, but a few solutions I have read about have made me laugh cry and cringe. My personal favorite is electrified lifelines. I know I would zap myself and piss my pants coming home from the pub.


----------



## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

Stay away from high crime areas.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd second WS's suggestion. It is generally far easier to avoid trouble by avoiding the high-crime areas than to take precautions to keep the bad guys off the boat in those areas. Dogs are not a good solution, since most countries have very strict quarantine laws regarding them, and they don't do well on longer passages as a general rule.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I loved the one I read where the guy is building a RC helicopter with a fuel bomb of some kind. Fly the copter over an attacking boat and dive on it blowing up the bomb!!! Points for creativity for sure


----------



## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Wouldn't it be about the same with home protection? A good shot gun, maybe a semi-auto rifle for those long distance situations. People don't seem to want to stick around when they're being shot at. But if that is the case, then you'd better be ready to be fired on yourself. 

Sucks that the world is falling apart, if they only new that most cruisers are penny pinchers and don't have huge amounts of money - especially on the boat...


----------



## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I am with WS and SD.

There are so many great safe places to sail. why be a target for crime?


----------



## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

I too suspect it is like land, same idea. 

One thing that would really help would be travellers staying away but we refuse to do that. As soon as an area feels any effect at all they drop the price a tiny bit and others of us flock there. Crime has to get really bad before we even take notice. 

We do react to media driven paranoia but even that only lasts so long. 

I'm not a fan of those wanting to experience "the culture" of the areas they visit. I do like that and learn alot but I lived in an area where people were attracted to the "culture" because it was exoctic unknown and dangerous. 

There the stories of beatings and missing tourists were downplayed even by the tourists but I saw the methods. 

It would always start with a "local" being very nice. Approach with a smile if that doesn't work try playing the race card, if that doesn't work just wait for another. Sometimes there would be a full out frontal attack depending on the situation but that was rare as far as I could tell. I know in the case of one murder, it was nice nice nice, let me show you around, let me hit you over the head, take your car and hide everything. Then brag about it while the family shows up with posters. 

So how does one handle that? Very difficult if one wants to get into the local culture. 

Maybe we just have to accept the risks, hope they only take a few of us...kinda like what we do now.


----------



## geordy (Aug 27, 2009)

I haven't been reading up on piracy too much as I don't own a boat yet and am currently in the middle of a desert, but I do deal with anti-terrorism training for personnel traveling overseas. I see this as no different from being back in any city in the US. There are places you just don't go unless you have a specific reason for being there. If you do go, you make yourself into a "Hard Target." This means nothing more than looking tougher than the next guy. Think risk vs reward. Pirates, for the most part, are not terrorists because they are not trying to influence a government. They are running a business. If you wait until you can travel with a group of like minded sailors, can be visibly alert, etc, you may have a better chance then going alone.

Guns are excellent, if you have the proper mindset and training to use them effectively. Remember though, trying to hit someone on a bobbing boat while you are on another, moving and bobbing boat is extremely difficult even for people who train constantly. Remember, guns are a tool, the mind and judgement are the weapon.

IMHO, don't go if you don't need to or just except the risk. Have fun.


----------



## dboy4ever (Jan 12, 2010)

I think guns would be excellent.

You don't necessarily need to score a kill. You're not a SEAL sniper trying to rescue a hostage on enemy boat. Your goal is simply to scare them away.

Of course, this is just my theory, but this is a tried and true tactic in home defense - Make noise with your gun from a safe distance where you can't hit them and they can't hit you; They realize you have guns; They move on to look for the next easy target rather than risking their lives with you.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Of course, traveling with guns makes your life much more difficult. Also, being armed may just escalate things... and many of the pirates have heavier weapons than you will...an RPG or fully-automatic AK47 is going to make for a bad day for you.


dboy4ever said:


> I think guns would be excellent.
> 
> You don't necessarily need to score a kill. You're not a SEAL sniper trying to rescue a hostage on enemy boat. Your goal is simply to scare them away.
> 
> Of course, this is just my theory, but this is a tried and true tactic in home defense - Make noise with your gun from a safe distance where you can't hit them and they can't hit you; They realize you have guns; They move on to look for the next easy target rather than risking their lives with you.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

shamrock6 said:


> I'm not looking for a debate about guns, but additional security precautions that can be taken...


( The tendency of cruiser security questions to devolve into another gun debate must be overwhelming, because that is what usually happens. )

I believe that the OP asked to avoid talking firearms, and instead focus on experience with other methods. The electrified lifeline scenario seems dicey to me. Joshua Slocum threw tacks on his deck before he retired for the evening. That worked for him in the 1890's. (Yes, I know that he also traveled with firearms.)

I used to work in the home security industry. One of the key pieces of insight that I gained from the experience, is that *MOST *personal property theft, and most trespassing is conducted by people that don't want to be caught. Most of the time it is kids, testing the envelope. Some times it is a rogue adult, or someone down on their luck. These people will avoid situations if the think that they may be being caught or observed. That is why a barking dog usually acts as a deterrent.

There are a few psychopaths (frequently under the influence) that like confrontation and governments that allow their citizens to prey on innocent cruisers, but fortunately they are less common. These places are easy to spot, and well known. You probably already know that Noonsite has an ongoing updated report at this URL. WS put it succinctly, stay away from these places .

I read somewhere about one cruiser that rigged an el-cheapo Passive InfraRed (PIR) sensor to his mast, focused on the cockpit. I think it was one of these (~$80); 









One night the sensor went off. He flicked on the spreader lights, and heard a splash. It seems that the intruder went over the side. 

HTH!


----------



## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

And then when would you use a gun. When they approach? When they seem all nice and say hello? When they are beside your boat selling you something? When they are all nice and happy and pretending not to understand to stay off the boat? When they board your boat full of smiles? 

Pull a gun at any of those points and the local law enforcement will take everything you own. The locals are always right, you are always wrong. 

But if you do not take a gun when you are allowed then you will have made the choice of what you are going to do even before you know what the situation calls for. 

People who can carry but don't seem to be limiting their options, but then I can understand why some do not have EPIRBs and Liferafts. Same idea, make the decision ahead of time and then stick with it should the time come when such items might be needed. Often that plan results in the items never having been really needed at all.

Which is why the other suggestions are good. I like the idea of alarms, I mean how much trouble could one get into for setting one of those off?


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Actually the device above is not an "alarm" but an "alert." 

All that happens when an intruder is detected is that the black box pictured above will beep, so that you wouldn't be surprised. (you could even get your gun! )


----------



## geordy (Aug 27, 2009)

Sorry I brought up the subject of guns. I should have known it would start something. My bad.

I still stand by what I said about being visibly alert. Be aware at all times. By all means, an audible alarm for when someone boards your boat is a great idea, if you are just trying to stop a burgler. 

For pirates, it your mindset that is more important than anything else. Like any cruise you go on, you need to plan for where you are going. Look at if there are certain days, seasons, etc that are more dangerous. Look at what kind of vessels are the most common targets. Are there going to be Coalition warships in the area? How willing are they to help out when you need it? Most governments and militaries are focusing more on commercial traffic. 

Noonsite is an excellent resource. Use it.

Any way, decide if going is worth the risk. After that, I stand by what I said earlier. Have fun.


----------



## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

Really I think this thread shows that there is no real security while in dangerous places. Sure you can kid yourself by saying you got through by never sleeping and always being on guard but most people got through doing nothing but sailing. 

A friend in the military thinks many of us are crazy because he has done many international patrols and often sees Western sail boats in waters that are full of criminals. Even when they are firing on a boat full of bad guys. He will not go sailing without at least one .50cal, deck mounted, but then I point out that he is always looking for trouble, LOL. 

All the ideas so far are for sailing in places that are not particularly dangerous and I would think might be of some use in some cases.


----------



## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

I like the idea of an alert. I'm going to look into that. 

The waters I'll be sailing here real soon are inland river waters and I'm licensed to carry a gun in each of the two states it goes through. For piece of mind, there will be a 45 on board, and perhaps a 12 guage pump stashed up in the berth. 

I wouldn't even want to think about having a gun in foreign lands, waters, unless it was legal for a US Citizen to do so.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

carl762 said:


> I like the idea of an alert. I'm going to look into that.


The product pictured is the Chamberlain CWA2000 Wireless Motion Alert. There could be other battery powered products available. This unit uses 4AA batteries in the transmitter and 4 more in the receiver. It's currently available for $52.24 through Amazon.com. Cheap peace of mind...

I am not in any way affiliated with either Chamberlain or Amazon.
(It might be a good product for Sailnet to add to their portfolio.)


----------



## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks.


----------



## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

I've worked as a police officer and a mercenary. I am comfortable defending myself with various weapons and have no problem doing so.

However, I don't see firearms as the solution. I think they can bring a false sense of security and encourage someone to go into places they would otherwise avoid. 

I think that it's best to avoid hot spots and trouble if at all possible. True, one can get a flare gun that can fire a 12 ga shell but, then again we are talking weapons. The problem with that is, once you leave your country's waters you are subject to the laws of *there*. You could have every good intention but, the discovery of your self defense .38 cal on your boat by the local coast guard or customs folk might lose your trip, your boat, and maybe your freedom -- for a long time.

It's a tough question but, I think it's better to avoid the situation so you don't have to use a weapon to defend yourself (maybe an unlawful one) than to walk into a situation where it's a given.


----------



## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

i still like the idea of a board with nails on the cockpit floor, then the person that steps on it becomes the alarm. just dont forget to pick it up in the morning.

its real simple a bunch of 6 inch squares of 1/4 ply with 1 1/2 ringed panel nails driven thru the ply. figure 6 to 10 nails per board and make 10 boards. the reason for the boards being small and using the ring nails is that once they get stepped on they will stay in the foot they cant just step away. same as the low count of nails it to make sure the ones they do step on go nice and deep


----------



## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

scottyt said:


> i still like the idea of a board with nails on the cockpit floor, then the person that steps on it becomes the alarm. just dont forget to pick it up in the morning.
> 
> its real simple a bunch of 6 inch squares of 1/4 ply with 1 1/2 ringed panel nails driven thru the ply. figure 6 to 10 nails per board and make 10 boards. the reason for the boards being small and using the ring nails is that once they get stepped on they will stay in the foot they cant just step away. same as the low count of nails it to make sure the ones they do step on go nice and deep


I didn't mention man traps as a useful tool. They are indiscriminate in their execution and often catch their own creators.


----------



## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

As a liveaboard for a number of years I was fortunent enough to have the opportunity to know many world cruisers. A couple from New Zealand spoke very highly of their white German Shephard even with some of the hassles of cruising with a dog. The dog was the main deterrent even though they did carry firearms, but knew that any confortation with the weapon might end up with them explaining why they had killed the police chief's son. It was ironic that in all their travels and getting permission to take the dog ashore in so many countries that upon return home they were prevented from taking the dog ashore. 

I like the idea of alarms that both alerts the crew and shows the potential invader that their presence is noted. (Some cases it may be best to surprise the intruders, but in most situations you just want them to leave.) That reminds me of a friend who was traveling down the ICW when a large power boat approached from astern with the associated large wake. He went below and got the video recorder and started pointing it at the power boater who promply slowed to a more reasonable speed. That would not be a solution for a home invader, but shows that detection is a strong deterent for most any situation. 

Simple solutions are always the best and making yourself not appear the target should be the goal. How that is achieved varies from situation to situation. For example, on my dinghy I spilled cetol over it while doing the teak on the mother ship. At first I wanted to clean it off, but then thought about a potential thief not wanting it over a sparkling new one. I even added a few fake patches to the thing.


----------



## eolon (Feb 5, 2008)

Joshua Slocum said that the most valuable thing he carried on the Spray was a bag of tacks that friend gave him when making passage through the Magellan Strait.

The hard part was getting all the tacks on deck "pointy side up". They did work well when barefoot boarders attempted to creep onto the boat one night.

More modern pirates will probably 1) not be barefoot, and 2) have various weapons like AK-47s and whatnot.

I have a WWII flare gun with a 12 gauge adapter. I keep a couple of 12 gauge shells close at hand. Although shooting a flare at someone is most likely just going to piss them off, a rifled slug will do a fair job of dissuading them from boarding without permission.

Best Regards,

e
.::.


----------



## jjrunning (Dec 9, 2009)

It always reverts to guns.

And I love the board full of nails. Nice and deep ones!


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I have a WWII flare gun with a... rifled slug"
That just says you are in over your head. A _rifled _slug is totally wasted out of a pistol barrel. And while your insert may or may not be strong enough to prevent the shell from exploding the barrel, the odds are the breech lock isn't strong enough to hold either, in which case it all blows up in your face--literally. Even if you test fire it once or twice and it holds, you can't tell whether it will explode on the third try.
If you want to rely on something for defense, buy or build a weapon that's a bit more reliable than a zipgun. Carrying a flare gun with an insert, and 12g shells, will be treated as carrying a pistol and/or munitions in most jurisdictions, you're not going to fool very many folks if they board you and search around, either.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

If you are looking for a defensive weapon, try this!






NO issues while cruising!


----------



## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

this guy is better than the 'sniper' kid

YouTube - Carolina Camera: The Sling Shot Man


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I'm not a fan of guns for the reasons mentioned. And while I like dogs I don't think it fair to the dog to have to put up with a small boat at an angle for days on end. But the alert system is a good idea. There are a lot of places where there is no serious danger but as with home there are thieves trying to take what you have, as even a poor sailor seems richer than they do. I don't think tacks are a good idea really. But there are other security measures you can take. Here's a link to an article by James Baldwin about avoiding problems. The security bars for the companionway and hatches are a good idea and allow ventilation. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-articles/20531-dodging-pirates-southeast-asia.html


----------



## tomwatt (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't mind firearms as a concept, but I'd be afraid that cruising with them would be all sorts of problems... they are not "store and forget" items and require regular cleaning and maintenance. As if there's nothing else to do on board!
I like the flare pistol idea, even if Hollywood makes it out to be a bigger deal than it is in practice. Otherwise, I might bring along a boarding axe or cutlass for "just in case" - the light axe being a multipurpose tool anyway.


----------



## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

The world is a big place. Why would you sail into harms way? There's lots of places to avoid here in the USA. It's just common sense for a fair skinned person not to venture into E. St. Louis late at night. Same goes for the rest of the world. Just avoid the hot spots..........*i2f*


----------



## norsearayder (Dec 19, 2006)

if i were of a mind that i needed protection in the boat, then the next thing is which one?the ak47 is good but gets really hot ,, but for close work the stainless steel ruger 44magnum will sink a boat quickly also the stainless [mariner that holds 9 shots of 00 buckshot [12guage] allowing 108 pellets the size of a 32cal will do the trick...with that said ,sail where people like you,i carry no guns ,there too valuable to lose to mexico . up here in maine all u need is a nut cracker to fight off the invading hordes of lobsters


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I am sitting here in Amityvile and have to be carefull which street i take to get to the supply house for a nut&bolt as the getting shot rate is on the high side 

So like others have said i take the long way and stay out of the places that make the headlines weekly


----------



## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

norsarayer: If you're going nuts and shooting up whole 30-round magazines, sure those AK's get hot, real hot. Selective, prudent fire would make the AK semi-automatic rifle perfect for on-board security. I own two of them. 

I like the other ideas better, though. 

Surely don't want to lose a weapon to any authority.


----------



## norsearayder (Dec 19, 2006)

carl762 your rite about the ak, mine is scoped and very acurate a looong way,but it sure is fun to burn ammo in a pit with a whole bunch of targets,after a while the amout of dust kicked up will block u out from seeing anything , a great weapon at a resonable price


----------



## shamrock6 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mitiempo, that post you inserted was great! Thanks for that!


----------



## shibbershabber (Mar 7, 2010)

I have been considering security for my cruising adventures...

While you can legally carry a gun... you have to declare it and likely leave it locked up at the customs office until you leave the country.

So, a gun would be the best defense during a crossing in international waters, you need to have a different plan for after you arrive.


I would be curious to know what the knife laws are in various countries? So far, I have only found rules regarding firearms. But a knife/sword of somekind would do the job while docked. But, it depends on what you can have.


While out and about, you may not even be able to carry a knife. If you are able, try to learn some kind of martial arts to defend yourself.


Of course keeping your boat secured at night and keeping aware of your surroundings is the number one defense, sometimes you cant avoid trouble.

As for in open water, Im not sure how to be less of a target... The British couple who were kidnapped were in a 35 footer... probably not too high profile, yet they were still captured. Maybe best to stay away from those areas unless you want trouble. Even if you have guns and feel you can protect yourself... why test it?

I have (legally ) carried a pistol daily for nearly 10 years but never once in that time have I ever felt the need to reach for it. Its all about common sense.


----------



## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

Knife laws in Canada are nuts or to be more polite all over the map.

Many knifes are treated as prohibited weapons (very serious) even some commonly available knives. Found that out when I asked about a certain brand knife in a major chain store and was told they had all been taken by the police because they were now in the prohibited weapons category in Canada.

An interaction with the Chicago police had me answer the weapons question with a "No but I have a pocket knife, front pocket." This was the prohibited in Canada knife. When I produced it his Crocodile Dundee attitude had me keep the knife while getting a lift from him (long story).

Officially the criminal code says this about prohibited knives:
_(a) a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, or
(b) any weapon, other than a firearm, that is prescribed to be a prohibited weapon;_

Which of course could mean any old loose buck knife but it is an improvement. For years any locking blade, like a buck knife was prohibited but we all used them as they were much safer.

No concealed weapons allowed, which can be anything so you can imagine what that means.

Then there is the length issue. That's more of a local culture thing, no federal laws on length. Where I grew up it used to be that any blade over 6" had to be carried in a sheath exposed. To hide it was considered concealed. But local rules and individual cops vary.

My 6" pocket knife was considered a concealed weapon by police in some cities so now I have a 4" pocket knife. Now I hear that 4" is considered too long and all pocket knives should be under 3".

It won't be long before we are back to the 2" knifes which were very popular because you could carry those anywhere including aircraft. I have often carried knifes through security and could not help but think how useless a box cutter would have been back in those days.

So bottom line. All knifes carried for defensive proposes are going to be considered illegal in Canada.

Up side is no one has ever really challenged our knife laws, those charges almost always get plea bargained away and 99% of the time there are no charges.

So if you must carry a knife then carry whatever seems reasonable to you but do not complain if a Cop takes it from you. Just think of it as a lesson in the local police culture and be sure to ask what they think is reasonable.


----------



## jwreck (Jan 25, 2010)

Don't take a knife to a gunfight.


----------



## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

I think being street smart will get you out of 90% of bad situations. In some situations, you are just unlucky and all you can do is beg for your life. Fighting a boat full of pirates with a machete is not exactly hedging your bets.


----------



## shibbershabber (Mar 7, 2010)

So, Architeuthis, I can imagine that Canada is a much safer place to be now.

I hate to sound like a conservative with these tired cliches... but it seems that in America, those cities with the highest crime/murder rate are the ones with the most restrictive self-defense/weapons laws.

Its the operator, not the equipment... surely any sailor could understand that.


----------



## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

shibbershabber said:


> So, Architeuthis, I can imagine that Canada is a much safer place to be now.
> 
> I hate to sound like a conservative with these tired cliches... but it seems that in America, those cities with the highest crime/murder rate are the ones with the most restrictive self-defense/weapons laws.
> 
> Its the operator, not the equipment... surely any sailor could understand that.


Of course sailors understand that as everyone of them carry a knife, at the very least while around boats.

If such laws worked we would have no murders at all because all self defense weapons are outlawed. You are not allowed to carry any weapon for the purpose of self defense from another person. This helps show that a countries murder rate has nothing to do with outlawing weapons and everything to do with their culture.

In Canada most murders are committed with blunt objects or no weapons at all, next were knifes. Guns were never the weapon of choice which might explain the weird knife laws. Growing up I knew several people who were murdered, none were shot. In one case an argument got violent and the person left the room, walked past a .303 into the kitchen which had a loaded shotgun in it, grabbed a knife from a drawer, and went back into the room and&#8230;.well he was charged with murder.

Different cultures different views. Canadians have or had a different view towards guns, guns are more like tools. Of course that is changing. Many new Canadians see guns as violence and prefer to kill using guns. It is for them or the people that live around them that we made the farmers register their shotguns.

Turns out that making the farmer in the Saskatchewan register his shotgun did not reduce the gun murders in Toronto. No idea why that didn't work. Now some are suggesting we take the handguns and rifles from that same farmer. I'm sure that will work, I mean they wouldn't do it otherwise right?


----------



## zboss (Mar 26, 2006)

Unfortunately, I think security is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, even in those areas that have little crime now. The big issue is population explosion and the fact that most countries have very little in the way of extensive mental health facilities. Combine this with cheap drugs and this has recently become a large problem for even fairly wealthy countries in nice places... like the BVI.

Budgets dictate that they cannot lock up or treat every mentally distressed individual and in the most locations it is a catch-and-release policy unless the person is in an immediate homicidal or suicidal state. So, "normal" criminals and pirates not withstanding you have a much better chance of becoming a victim at the hands of someone that is just flat out crazy.

What this means is that any deterrent besides not appearing to be a gullible tourist means squat. No matter what kind of weapons or security measures you put in place you will almost always get ripped off by someone who you know. We had a guy that we knew for many many years. Multi-generations of his family was friends of ours. He came up to the boat one day and hung around, asking for a coke and whatnot. He left on his dingy. A minute later we turn around and he had crawled in the forward hatch and was stealing our bed sheets. The USED bed sheets. 

I suggest learning how to physically defend yourself via a martial art. That is something no-one can take away or fine you for. It's hidden and ready to use if you need it.


----------



## PCP777 (Apr 7, 2009)

zboss said:


> Unfortunately, I think security is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, even in those areas that have little crime now. The big issue is population explosion and the fact that most countries have very little in the way of extensive mental health facilities. Combine this with cheap drugs and this has recently become a large problem for even fairly wealthy countries in nice places... like the BVI.
> 
> Budgets dictate that they cannot lock up or treat every mentally distressed individual and in the most locations it is a catch-and-release policy unless the person is in an immediate homicidal or suicidal state. So, "normal" criminals and pirates not withstanding you have a much better chance of becoming a victim at the hands of someone that is just flat out crazy.
> 
> ...


Usually people steal your sheets and pillow cases to carry other stuff away. You might want to take a look.


----------



## zboss (Mar 26, 2006)

Point taken but in this case he wanted the sheets. He didn't own any. Seriously - I have been in his shack.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

So you make him a deal, give him the srubc brush and deck cleaner and tell him he's gonna wash and wax your entire hull now, and his payment will be one set of sheets. If he does a good job, buy him a new set.

Otherwise...give in to the temptation to burn down his shack, that way he won't need sheets at all and you've liberated him from the evils of materialism.

(Wouldn't want to be an _inflexible _liberal, would one?<G>)


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Carrot and the stick,...excellent.


hellosailor said:


> So you make him a deal, give him the srubc brush and deck cleaner and tell him he's gonna wash and wax your entire hull now, and his payment will be one set of sheets. If he does a good job, buy him a new set.
> 
> Otherwise...give in to the temptation to burn down his shack, that way he won't need sheets at all and you've liberated him from the evils of materialism.
> 
> (Wouldn't want to be an _inflexible _liberal, would one?<G>)


----------



## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> So you make him a deal, give him the srubc brush and deck cleaner and tell him he's gonna wash and wax your entire hull now, and his payment will be one set of sheets. If he does a good job, buy him a new set.
> 
> Otherwise...give in to the temptation to burn down his shack, that way he won't need sheets at all and you've liberated him from the evils of materialism.
> 
> (Wouldn't want to be an _inflexible _liberal, would one?<G>)


Then stand guard on your boat 24/7 so he doesn't sink it.

"It's ok to *think* about putting the baby in the dryer. You'd never *do* it of course, but it's healthy to let the thoughts come and go." -- Julia, my friend the witch.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Then stand guard on your boat"
Blackj, there's no reason he would ever think about taking revenge on YOU, unless you tipped him off in advance. Or forgot to check on whether he was snugly inside his shack before you burned it down.

Even a Bhudda can smile.


----------



## Superpickle (Oct 17, 2009)

It looks to me, like the BEST deterent is, Owning a SUPER Yacht.. they havnt taken any of those that I am aware of.. 
Or, Mabee the peeps that Own them , are Smart enough to stay the Hell away from the bad areas..


----------



## Superpickle (Oct 17, 2009)

Architeuthis said:


> Of course sailors understand that as everyone of them carry a knife, at the very least while around boats.
> 
> If such laws worked we would have no murders at all because all self defense weapons are outlawed. You are not allowed to carry any weapon for the purpose of self defense from another person. This helps show that a countries murder rate has nothing to do with outlawing weapons and everything to do with their culture.
> 
> ...


Yup, the U flogging S is just ONE VIOLENT place full of NUT BALLS.
DC has the worst Gun crime, and the Highest gun restrictions.. LOL..LOL...


----------



## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

blackjenner said:


> Then stand guard on your boat 24/7 so he doesn't sink it.
> 
> "It's ok to *think* about putting the baby in the dryer. You'd never *do* it of course, but it's healthy to let the thoughts come and go." -- Julia, my friend the witch.


No kidding. You know how long it takes to get that smell out of the dryer?

It sticks to your clothes. People in line behind you at the supermarket know what you've been up to.


----------



## topsailbeach (Mar 13, 2010)

unfortunatly the pirates may have longer range guns than you do if you open fire at a distance there are many rifles that can hit from a 1.5 mile distance
Staying away from known areas is a better bet


----------



## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

topsailbeach said:


> unfortunatly the pirates may have longer range guns than you do if you open fire at a distance there are many rifles that can hit from a 1.5 mile distance
> Staying away from known areas is a better bet


I absolutely agree with you that avoiding trouble is the best way to deal with it.

On that, we are in violent agreement.

Now, let's talk about gunz. A little mental exercise if you will

By the way, I'm not a gun nut. I've just faced AKs in the field.

I looked this up for the hard numbers.

I do find your comments about the range of rifle fire interesting. Yes, a rifle round can go 1.5 miles or 2640 Yards.

The effective range of "the preferred weapon of our enemy" is 400 metres (440 yd) semi-automatic.

Think about that for a second. Two thousand six hundred and forty yards.

Ballistics for this round say that, at 500 yards, the bullet drop is 95". That means that your pirate better be aiming at top of your mast for any chance of the bullets hitting your boat.

That means each round takes over a second to reach you.

I will tell you that it is highly unlikely that some Somali pirate, unloading a rattly AK-47 at you from 2640 yards has any significant chance of hitting you. If a round strikes you or your boat, you would be extremely unlucky.

I've had AK-47s pointed at me, and had been shot "near" (thankfully not at) with them.

At close range they are quite formidable. Outside of 300 yards, they are simply noisy.

FYI, the effective range of an M16-A2, with iron sights, is 600 yards.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd also point out that the pirates generally don't have much in the way of training, and that firing any type of firearm from a moving boat, on the ocean, and expecting to hit something more than 100 yards away is pretty ridiculous unless you've have a lot of training.


----------



## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

you're right. Just hitting a target at all at a hundred yards with iron sights, standing, hand held, a single shot, is pretty iffy in itself. then put that shooter on a moving platform in roll, pitch, yaw, and heave... then put the target on a similar platform, but with different direction and speed vectors from the shooter's platform....

Let's put it this way, he'd also have to have a cool head and steady hand to hit the jib one time out of....oh depends on sea conditions...

Now, if you put a trained pirate on a bluff with a a Barrett Model 95B and some decent optics...things are going to start getting nervous. But at long ranges, you are still a moving target. Don't sail under any Somalian bluffs?


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Somalians don't bluff. You're thinking of Australians.


----------



## Maverick1958 (Nov 30, 2009)

LandLocked66c said:


> Wouldn't it be about the same with home protection? A good shot gun, maybe a semi-auto rifle for those long distance situations. People don't seem to want to stick around when they're being shot at. But if that is the case, then you'd better be ready to be fired on yourself.
> 
> Sucks that the world is falling apart, if they only new that most cruisers are penny pinchers and don't have huge amounts of money - especially on the boat...


Shot gun maybe, rifle no way. I am a former Scout Sniper and I doubt that I could make a man shot much past 100 yards depending on the sea's. Best to stay away from bad places. Have you ever considered a sword? Then they may think you are a pirate and leave you alone...


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

2Gringos said:


> Just hitting a target at all at a hundred yards with iron sights, standing, hand held, a single shot, is pretty iffy in itself. then put that shooter on a moving platform in roll, pitch, yaw, and heave... then put the target on a similar platform, but with different direction and speed vectors from the shooter's platform....


Sure. And a jogger on a beach in South Carolina just got killed by an airplane that landed on him. Bad stuff happens sometimes. The best defense is to not be there. "Being shot at sucks."™

In the current world I'd rather go around the Cape of Good Hope than the Red Sea. YMMV.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> Somalians don't bluff. You're thinking of Australians.


bl - you're good my man.


----------



## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> bl - you're good my man.


Dont think I havent been aware of this little slur.. Be a little afraid my good man.


----------



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

It strikes me that this isssue of 'onboard security' often gets talked about in very general terms.

The reality is that a 'pirate' could be anything from a somalian outfit with AK-47's and the whole deal, to a 10 year old local boy trying to flog your Outboard.

If we assume that common sense has dictated avoiding 'high risk' areas.......thus hopefully one has stayed out of harms way of the AK47 wielding, speed boat driving, para-military nasties..........and onboard security then is more about protection from opportunistic local crime.

The thing here is I guess, often the areas cruisers wish to cruise are not smack bang in western suburbia....the point of cruising is going interesting places, off the beaten track, exploring different cultures in Countries not as economically fortunate as our own. 

With this I think comes a certain amount of inherrant risk, and measures need to be taken.....Like Tager said it probably does come down to a bit of street smart and maybe a couple of tricks up your sleeve.
I do like Slocums Tacks and the plank with nails. I have heard of one cruising family that had a tape player with a dog barking loudly on it......another guy I know swears by a very very bright searchlight and a siren.......I have also heard of toy guns......


----------



## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

I have made this suggestion on another post but I still feel it has value for deterring most opportunistic assaults. I have an old BB gun that is identical to an AR-16. It is legal. It looks like a serious defense weapon. If it were visible to a thug who is considering you as a target it might give them reason to reconsider you as an easy mark and leave you alone. I am thinking that hanging a couple of these toys where they could easily be seen by an threat might be helpful.

Down


----------



## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

I am a gun-rights advocate, and shooting enthusiast, however, that is not the reason I bought a sailboat. I go to the range when I want to shoot. I would do everything possible to avoid an armed confrontation afloat! Besides, chances are, the pirates will out-arm you. Firing warning shots is a BAD idea, unless you're prepared to join the party you just sent invitations out for! You may think you're out of range when just "making noise", but a 50-cal can shoot about as far as you can see. No thanks, I'll avoid gun play at sea, and take WS and SD's advice.


----------



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

I guess my point is that when we think of 'pirates' we all tend to jump to this image of being under sail and a mysterious speedboat comes up behind you....

This is obviously one scenario, The other however is that you are at anchor and asleep and are quietly boarded in the middle of the night.....

While waving firearms, pretend/real might work in the first scenario, I wonder how effective they would be in the second?


----------



## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

chall03 said:


> .....I have also heard of toy guns......


I disagree about the toy gun considering that any time you show a gun you better be willing to use it. IMHO

I only have indirect experience having some friends who have encountered problems while cruising. One couple from NZ traveled with a German Shepard aboard and they said even with hassels about clearing customs it was worth it's weight in gold. One episode was when they were approached by a small open boat with a out board and 2 guys aboard about 12 miles or so off shore from one of the Carribean islands. They claimed they were fishermen who needed just some water. No fishing gear was aboard...just two machties(sp). As Alex and Kaye sailed along the "fishing boat" was pulling along side claiming they wanted water. The dog was going crazy and finally Alex had Kaye go below to get the rifle. He never pointed it at them but merely held it up in the air as they continued sailing. The "fishing boat" left.

Another friend some years ago was on a big power boat down in the Bahamas when drug running was more common. Another power boat was following them and when they changed course, it would also change. They decided to have target practice by putting floats in the water and they started to merely shoot at the floats. They were not trying to shoot at the approaching boat but merely showing that they had guns aboard. The boat stopped following.

It's easy to second guess these situations and claim that this or that should have been done instead, but having as many options at your disposal is in my opinion the best defense.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Using toy guns or bb-guns that look like real guns is really foolish IMHO. Pulling them out may escalate the situation and you won't have the firepower to back it up... They will cause almost as much hassels with the customs as carrying a real gun in many cases, so why not carry the real thing instead, if you're going to be stupid enough to venture into those waters where they're going to be needed. 

It really does make far more sense to stay in safe waters.


----------



## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

Maverick1958 said:


> Shot gun maybe, rifle no way. I am a former Scout Sniper and I doubt that I could make a man shot much past 100 yards depending on the sea's. Best to stay away from bad places. Have you ever considered a sword? Then they may think you are a pirate and leave you alone...


That is one of the most awesome answers in this thread.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

If you can find one, the HK EFL semi-automatic flare gun is a useful piece of equipment, and legal in most cruising areas.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Would have been far more impressive had it been a curvy lovely in a bikini firin' those babies off.


----------



## Pogo-2 (Jan 3, 2006)

I read in the paper last fall where a man fishing on lake Erie,of all places was robber by a pirate that took his cash and his catch as well as his boat keys, lucky the man had an extra set on board. The police said they get about 100 calls a year of someone trying to rob on the water


----------



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

sailingdog said:


> Using toy guns or bb-guns that look like real guns is really foolish IMHO. Pulling them out may escalate the situation and you won't have the firepower to back it up... They will cause almost as much hassels with the customs as carrying a real gun in many cases, so why not carry the real thing instead, if you're going to be stupid enough to venture into those waters where they're going to be needed.
> 
> It really does make far more sense to stay in safe waters.


And SD please pray tell, Where are these 'safe' waters you speak of???

A great cruising utopia where no man ever touches another man's belongings? Where Outboards always start the first time, where there is free wifi for all and rather than marine growth, diamonds grow on the bottom of all of our hulls 

I am sorry guys but I still like the toy guns theory. Who is really to say what will or won't definitely work in any given situation anyway???
I do have friends who have cruised extensively around asia/pacific who have described to me a couple of situations where it according to their accounts may of been great help.

Yeah it may sound quirky. But we are talking about them obviously being used with common sense, as a deterrent if and when applicable...... If a guy is stood on your deck pointing the AK47 at your head your Toys R Us special probably isn't going to help no.

The situation described to me involved a boat of local Indonesian fisherman getting very curious about this owners yacht, while he was under sail. They got out their 'pretend' guns, and non-chalantly wandered around deck, not pointing or threatening the fisherman necessarily, but this owner reckons it was enough to plant a seed of doubt and the fishermen turned away and were not seen again...This owner had no problems carrying his pretend gun into Indonesia, Malaysia, The Solomons, Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu, New Caledonia and back in Australia.

Why Not carry the real thing instead SD??? Because I wouldn't have the first idea what to do with one.... and I would worry that it would fall into the wrong hands.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

I also agree that it's best to stay in safer areas. And contrary to seemingly common belief, most of the world is safe to cruise. I sailed the east coast of Africa which whilst it is not necessarily the most dangerous, it is probably one of the poorest. Many of the countries along that area are amongst the weakest economies in the world with some of the most impoverished populations.

So theft is a major issue and it taught me that the best solution is to ensure that your boat has a half-way decent locking system for when you're away, a reasonable way to stay secure while you're aboard and keeping the decks clear of anything worth stealing.

I have had and intend to put on my present boat a robust stainless grid that fits where my washboards normally go. This allows me to be reasonably safe when on board without cutting off the fresh air.

The one thing that I have thought about to combat piracy if you are confronted by it, is not modern weaponry but one of the older solutions. Let's face it, by the time a pirate boat comes alongside they will have shown their hands. Especially if you have tried a few evading manouvers. They will get impatient and start the action then the cards are on the table.

This may sound like bravado and I've never had reason to try it but I reckon I might - the old fashioned Molotov cocktail. A gin bottle filled with petrol (gasoline for the US members  ) with a cloth wick tightly stuffed in the neck. The cloth wick will soak up some petrol, enough to make it burn positively but not enough to ignite the contents of the bottle. C'mon you all know what I'm talking about.

So the pirate comes alongside and you turn your back on them, light the wick and toss the bottle into their boat. You had better believe that while their clothing is burning, the last thing they will be thinking about is shooting at you. And if you're feeling really charitable, you can give them a second bottle as you turn your boat away.

You need no licences for a Molotov cocktail. You will have no problem with authorities anywhere in the world. You can make as many as you want. And you don't have to explain to anyone why the striations on your gin bottle match the fuel that cooked the pirates.

Sounds like quite an elegant solution to me


----------



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Ar worst Andre it sounds like a good reason to go out and buy a bottle of Bombay in the name of 'improving vessel security' 

I can here myself explaining this all to the First mate now "honey I am sorry but for the sake of vessel security, the rule now is that everytime we tack you go below and fix a round of G & T's.


----------



## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

I tasted NZ beer once. Now I get it!!! Lucky I dont smoke.

[one flash and you're ash]


----------



## renbluefish (Nov 15, 2009)

I like the idea of vessel security system, with the motion detector thats sets of lights maybe also a loud air horn or siren that alerts others. When your tryng to be sneaky bright lights and loud noises can deter any sneaky ninja.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Would have been far more impressive had it been a curvy lovely in a bikini firin' those babies off.


Dude, we are talking about trying to *DETER *pirates, not encourage them.

My dad was a lawyer. One of his few maxims was; "Never threaten to sue someone. Sue them!" I have always believed that the same philosophy applied to weapons (toy guns?). If in a confrontation where a possible outcome is a fatality, your best course of action is to try to defuse the situation. Keeping in mind my dad's maxim above, however, I believe that the best time to disclose that you have a weapon for self defense would be shortly before you plan discharge it, preferably in the direction of the party that you are defending against. (Speak softly, but carry a big stick)

Hypothetically, my approach to the problem of pirate defense would take a different tack. I find that George Carlin can be a great source of inspiration, and common sense. Also, I'm good with tools.





Those CNG tanks could be a fuel source for more than the stove.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Finally, I'll point to post #12 in this thread for my overall take on this topic, and Rufus Hussey's pastime as my preferred method of marine self defense.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ed-

I always knew you were a ******* at heart... 


eherlihy said:


> Finally, I'll point to post #12 in this thread for my overall take on this topic, and Rufus Hussey's pastime as my preferred method of marine self defense.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> The rule now is that everytime we tack you go below and fix a round of G & T's.


I'm dumping that in the "Learning to Sail" forum. Best advice EVER on SN.


----------



## RonRelyea (Nov 18, 2009)

*Combine A plus B , petrol and not water ... flare if needed*

""""Up to 400 Yards! No, really! 
*****.com offers the best products in outdoor fun and entertainment. We certainly didn't miss the boat this time. Our water balloon launchers are one of the flagship products we sell. We have sold over 500,000 water balloon launchers. We are the trusted name in water balloon launchers. We'll guarantee you will have fun with one of our launchers.

Constructed of high quality, natural latex surgical tubing designed to last a lifetime, our balloon launchers are so durable, you can actually pull a car with it (but we do not recommend you try it). If your water balloon launcher breaks, send it back and we'll replace it free of charge. (**link** see our disclaimer)

Designed to use with 3 people or mounted, you can launch water balloons up to 400 yards away. For those non-football fans, that is over 3 football fields long. Our high quality launchers are designed to last forever. Should yours snap, rip or break under normal usage conditions (not mounted), we'll replace it for free. Our balloon launcher kits which include:

Select Launcher with our Guaranteed Fun Warranty

100 Environmental Friendly Water Balloons 
Pointed Tip "Easy Fill" Hose Adapter (When Available) """""


----------



## Alannc44 (Dec 3, 2008)

RonRelyea said:


> """"Up to 400 Yards! No, really!
> 
> 100 Environmental Friendly Water Balloons
> Pointed Tip "Easy Fill" Hose Adapter (When Available) """""


I would like to know exactly what these are made of. Even the "environmentally produced-latex ballons" take six months to degrade. In only takes a few weeks for an animal to starve with one of these things lodged in its gut.

Marine Conservation Society: Balloon Releases: Pollution Factsheet

Alan


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Ed-
> 
> I always knew you were a ******* at heart...


 At _*HEART*_?!?

Hey, Y'all aint seen me shoot pool, my pickup truck, or the cars in my front yard... or my ******* woman ;


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Water balloons against a Somalian with an AK47?


----------



## RonRelyea (Nov 18, 2009)

*petrol balloons! ... followed by a flare!*



mitiempo said:


> Water balloons against a Somalian with an AK47?


Part A = George Carlin flamethrower
Part B = ******* slingshooter

and the balloons will self destruct !

my attempt at comedy here .... all seriousness aside!


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that petroleum products destroy latex fairly quickly... you'd be an idiot to pour gasoline into a latex ballon... It will dissolve in a very short time...


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

mitiempo said:


> Water balloons against a Somalian with an AK47?


Yeah, they'll die laughin.:laugher

Why, in the name of (you'r deity's name here), would anyone want to sail the coast of Somalia?


----------



## PeterSailer (Mar 20, 2010)

I know this is probably against the law but you could radio in a false course before you leave...


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Amend my previous post to " water balloons against anyone with any kind of gun anywhere?"


----------



## CarelessNavigator (Mar 28, 2007)

For the places where thieves like to swim to your boat and steal your dinghy and outboard Would chumming the water before you go to sleep and maybe hanging a bait bag or two be a bad thing?


----------

