# What happens after you fall off your boat.



## Sailmachine (Jul 29, 2009)

I am just curious here. I think we all know falling off a boat means certain death. So we have jack lines and harnesses to keep us attached to the boat. This makes us feel safe and comfy. But what happens after you fall overboard. I imagine hanging on the side of the boat not being about to get back aboard. Has anyone tried jumping over the side while at anchor to see if they could get back on board. I hear people talking about their jack lines and harness a lot, but no one ever talks about getting back on deck after you have put the jack lines to the test.

Pete


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

It's not easy with our boat, but I can get up by using the rub rail. If I had a tether on, then I could use it to pull myself back up.


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## Allanbc (Apr 19, 2007)

Sometimes adrenaline makes something that seems impossible very possible.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

IMHO...If your jack lines/teather allow you to fall over board in the first place they are rigged wrong and not worth the effort clipping into them in the first place...and give you just something else to trip over which may be the cause of you going overboard to begin with....if that the case rig them right so you cant or get rid of them.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Getting back on board is just hard depending how you were being hanged by the side of the boat. There was a report that they found an abandoned boat with a dry corpse hanged on the side. 

1. being physical fitted helps
2. carry a knife to cut the tether may work so you can work yourself toward the stern side. 

I hate to think about this. But it does worry me.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Not a problem at all on my boat... if you're tethered in, you' can't fall of except at the very aft end of the boat...and getting aboard is pretty simple due to the really low freeboard at the ama nets...


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

maybe you should intentionally fall off while someone is on your boat to assist if you cant get back in? rope ladder in the cockpit along the rail wouldnt take up too much space and you could probably grab it from the drink and hook it to a winch, depending on if you can swim back to the boat (how fast can you swim?).

How to tie rope ladders with animated knot tying help | Wonder How To

How to Make Knots for a Rope Ladder: Knots & Knot-Tying Instructions | eHow.com

Can I Make a Rope Ladder Using Constrictor Knots? | eHow.com


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## trisstan87 (Aug 15, 2010)

This thread make me think about the scene in Master and Commander when they are rounding the horn and lose that guy overboard. "Swim man swim!" I don't think those old galleons move very fast but there was no way that guy was catching up. 
Fears in the back of my mind as I prepare my adventures: Lightning, Whales, and falling overboard.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

QuickMick said:


> maybe you should intentionally fall off while someone is on your boat to assist if you cant get back in? rope ladder in the cockpit along the rail wouldnt take up too much space and you could probably grab it from the drink and hook it to a winch, depending on if you can swim back to the boat (how fast can you swim?).


Probably not likely to work... at all. Freeboard and all that... Can't reach the winches from the side of our boat at all if you're in the water. Yes, I can haul myself out in swim trunks, but don't think it would be possible in foul weather gear, or if the boat was moving much at all... have you ever tried pulling yourself against 5-7 knots of current or simply dragging behind a ski boat? It's tough even if you're very strong in warm water and swim gear.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes, we swim off the boat all the time. Sugar scoops and a ladder.

Yes, people have boats with high tops and no ladder. Stupid in my mind, with no reservations. The stories of sailors not being able to get back on in calm waters are pitiful.

Yes, we have intentionally gone over and then hoisted the person back (me) while motoring at 4 knots. Not fun, but not bad. Actually, I could always do it un-aided, but I like rock climbing. I also had my crew crank me up without help (Lifesling). This is a very worthwhile test, since the sugar scoops are pretty bouncy when it's rough. Sugar scoops should not be discounted, though; we found they worked fine in most conditions, but the boat's heading may need adjustment (beam or run vs head-to-wind).

Yes, the tethers should be short, but in fair weather we run them long (they are used for solo deck watches). Thus, it is worth testing.


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

Pulling yourself against a water current is pretty hard. Just think of the force you're against walking through waist deep water.

If I could get to the stern, the open transom and telescoping swim ladder would make it relatively easy. Getting there would be the problem.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Not a problem at all on my boat... if you're tethered in, you' can't fall of except at the very aft end of the boat...and getting aboard is pretty simple due to the really low freeboard at the ama nets...


One less problem - I wish I could afford a catamaran.


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

Interesting story, related to the general topic...

The Derelict


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Other factors come into play too... are you alone? is the boat on autopilot or balanced and sailing itself? or will it round up and "stop" unattended? Can the ladder (if present) be deployed by someone in the water?

Recently watched "Open Water 2" - a chilling scenario where half a dozen people end up swimming off a largish drifting yacht with significant freeboard - and no one remembered to deploy the ladder first. Unable to climb aboard, no anchor down, in the story ultimately most perished... not a classic movie by any means, but the first half hour we had a sick feeling that such a boneheaded move would be actually quite easy to accidentally do....

Our club had a presentation from a round-the-world singlehander last year.. when asked if he wore a lifejacket his response was no... the only reason for a lifejacket in his situation was to keep a pistol from sinking... if he fell over and the boat was sailing away he may as well use it.......


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, this is all too common. Four people on a a sailboat owned by one of their parents did this not too long ago. The two women survived miraculously, the two men didn't. The boat wasn't anchored. They didn't have any PFDs on.... and all four decided to go swimming... Darwin award winners...



Faster said:


> *Recently watched "Open Water 2" - a chilling scenario where half a dozen people end up swimming off a largish drifting yacht with significant freeboard - and no one remembered to deploy the ladder first. Unable to climb aboard, no anchor down, in the story ultimately most perished... not a classic movie by any means, but the first half hour we had a sick feeling that such a boneheaded move would be actually quite easy to accidentally do....
> *


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

What are your thoughts (anyone) on trailing a floating line while sailing? Say, 50 or more feet of line with a knot every 18" or something like that. 

If you fell over the side while underway, would it go by so fast you wouldn't have a chance to swim over and grab it? I suppose that is a question of how long would such a line need to be in order to be useful.

It certainly would help eliminate the "we forgot to put the ladder down" fatalities - at least you would have a chance to try to pull yourself up using the trailing knotted line. 

And of course you'd have to remember to pull it in before firing up the engine.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unless you have it tied so that it turns the boat head to wind and disengages the sails and/or engine, don't bother. If the boat is doing more than a knot, you won't be able to hold onto the line for very long, much less pull yourself back up to the boat and climb back aboard. At anything over two-and-a-half knots, the wake you make going through the water hanging onto the line will likely drown you anyways...



ilikerust said:


> What are your thoughts (anyone) on trailing a floating line while sailing? Say, 50 or more feet of line with a knot every 18" or something like that.
> 
> If you fell over the side while underway, would it go by so fast you wouldn't have a chance to swim over and grab it? I suppose that is a question of how long would such a line need to be in order to be useful.
> 
> ...


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

ilikerust: that derelict story is just plain creepy. I guess I'll go set up those jack lines and harnesses... I don't sail alone though, or more than a couple miles from shore.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*What happens after you fall off your boat? *

You get wet? Seriously, nothing good...I have ended up in the water in late fall when a small boat that I was sailing capsized. A rescue boat came along side to try to rescue me and just getting myself out of the water in my wet clothing was extremely difficult. You cannot believe how heavy wet sailing gear can be. It took several attempts. The first few times I tried to do it in one quick lift. The weight of thw water trapped in my foul weather gear was too much. Ultimately, I had to lift myself a little at a time so that the water could drain before hauling myself up further. Frankly, it was totally exhausting and if you were single-handing you still need to be able to sail well enough to get home.

As a general rule, when I am single-handing I wear an inflatable harness and I try to use the jackline that is on the weather side of the boat, which in theory should keep me from being able to fall over the lee rail. I have slipped on occasion and slid down the deck, and the teather worked keeping me from sliding out under the lifelines, but I still am not completely convinced you would stay aboard if you took a fall on the foredeck or in all situations. (I do have zig-zagged lines rigged at the foredeck to help with sail changing and slippage.)

If you do go over, a teather can be a help, if you are in good physical condition (but can also be a hinderence) Years ago, I experimented with climbing out of the water while wearing a harness and teathered to the boat. I was able to reach up and support my weight on the teather with one hand, make a small loop in the teather below my hand to grab onto and used that arm to reach the rail. I then was able to work my way into a position where I was ultimately able to hook the stern rail with my foot and get aboard. (I was in a little better physical shape back then) On the other hand the teather kept me from reaching the transom where there is a boarding ladder that is a permanent part of the boat. (Now that I am a sexagenarian, I am not so sure that I could do that today and as I write this, I think that I should probably experiment with this again next summer.)

Jeff


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## jaschrumpf (Jun 22, 2002)

Mount a 12v truck winch with a radio control in the boat. Run the winch line up to a block a ways up on the mast where it can "see" the stern. Wouldn't need to be more than four or five feet up.

Carry the remote in a waterproof baggie on your person.

Connect your tether to the winch.

If you fall overboard, maneuver yourself behind the boat, push the "IN" button on the remote through the plastic.

Prepare to be dragged aboard. If that thing can pull a 4200-lb pickup, it'll reel you in with no problems.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

As others have said, mostly you die.

However there are exceptions read the Prue Nash story here CLICKY

I have recently bought a boat with a midships ladder which is stowed on deck while sailing. There is no way I can get back onboard without the ladder and high on the to do list is a set of permanent rear steps with a pull down telescopic section which I can operate from the water. But this only works at anchor or when the boat is drifting VERY SLOWLY.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Robert Gainer, a former member who passed away a few years ago, had a similar mishap, where he fell off his boat, yet managed—by a miracle—to get back aboard.


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

Oh Jeff... dont be a curmudgeon... im sure all the ladies thought you were a sex-a-genarian back then too...... 

hmmmm TQA...wonder if there would be a way to teather _to_ the swim ladder so that overboard=telescoping deployment, and you would still be hooked to her? the snaps/velcro/whatever keeps the ladder up (if a flip down model) would have to be pressure sensitive enough to pop... just brainstorming


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

*Iirc*

I think alcohol was involved in that mishap. Maybe hormones too.



sailingdog said:


> Unfortunately, this is all too common. Four people on a a sailboat owned by one of their parents did this not too long ago. The two women survived miraculously, the two men didn't. The boat wasn't anchored. They didn't have any PFDs on.... and all four decided to go swimming... Darwin award winners...


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

I went out solo a couple of times, in nice weather, light winds and warm water. I did wear an inflatable pfd. I also pulled a 100ft floating line behind me, with a small float attached at the end.

The line was attached to the rear starboard cleat, it ran back around and over my tiller, then exited the starboard side, through the rear pushpit upright.

If I had fallen over, I would have a chance to grab the line, which should have put the tiller hard to starboard and hopefully she would have rounded up.

Hey, better than just waving goodbye. A waterproof handheld VHF would have also been nice.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I'm not trying to be cute here, but doesn't where you are sailing have a major impact on the severity of falling off or not? For example, I sail in the Long Island Sound. I am never more than 10 miles from shore and usually less than 5 miles. Most of the time there are many other boats around and the water is not that cold. When I single hand I wear an inflatable PFD, hand held VHF and SPOT messenger device. 

I imagine that if I fall off and can't catch the boat (I don't believe I will be able to and won't spend a lot of time or energy trying), I will pop the inflatable and then issue a mayday on channel 16. If I don't get a response in a short time, I'll trigger the SPOT emergency button and start swimming for land. 

While I don't think the experience would be pleasant, I do believe I would survive.

Barry


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Depends a lot on the air and water temps. Also, don't rely on the SPOT, since it won't work if it is in the water.


BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> I'm not trying to be cute here, but doesn't where you are sailing have a major impact on the severity of falling off or not? For example, I sail in the Long Island Sound. I am never more than 10 miles from shore and usually less than 5 miles. Most of the time there are many other boats around and the water is not that cold. When I single hand I wear an inflatable PFD, hand held VHF and SPOT messenger device.
> 
> ...


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

they sell emergency boarding ladders you can clip to a stanchion or your toe rail so if you fall off you can still get back on

Wichard Emergency Boarding Ladder

wont help much if you arent right next to it when the boat is underway but it sure would come in handy if you were stopped and fell off while single handing.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> I'm not trying to be cute here, but doesn't where you are sailing have a major impact on the severity of falling off or not? For example, I sail in the Long Island Sound. I am never more than 10 miles from shore and usually less than 5 miles. Most of the time there are many other boats around and the water is not that cold. When I single hand I wear an inflatable PFD, hand held VHF and SPOT messenger device.
> 
> ...


On the one hand, I agree. Unless you're way out, your chances are pretty good...

*IF...*

you stay afloat. The PFD is the absolute key.

I remember talking about this quite a bit in another thread here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...lated/61716-how-afraid-should-we-sailing.html

It was based on a USCG report of boating deaths in the US. It was absolutely amazing how quickly and consistently people drown without a PFD.

Statistically speaking, sailing is not very dangerous. But you always need to float.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> On the one hand, I agree. Unless you're way out, your chances are pretty good...
> 
> *IF...*
> 
> ...


For sure.

I have posted this site before. If you want to know why you should wear your pfd, this should convince you.

http://www.coldwaterbootcamp.com/


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## jaschrumpf (Jun 22, 2002)

How come nobody likes my winch idea? :laugher


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

So the general consensus is to be tethered in when alone and even more so when in "difficult" conditions, whether alone or not. Always have the PFD on, which is a no-brainer in my book. Be smart about how you handle yourself on the boat when underway, well when anchored too I guess  I have seen tethers that are 6' long and then there are the double ones that have a 6' and a 3'. When would you use the 3' tether, in the cockpit? 

Edit: One other question... Go with the elastic ones or not? Reasons?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Jasc—

It's a bit ******* for most sailors...


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Since watching that ridiculous movie "Open Water 2: Adrift" and realizing our boat had no good way to get back aboard I opted to find on of those emergency ladders. I hang it over the side from the cockpit similar to the Wichard mentioned above. 

My guess is, if you're alone and fall overboard at sea you're screwed.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The 3' tether is a good choice if you want to stay on the boat. The elastic tethers are nice since they tend to stay up and out of your way.



cb32863 said:


> So the general consensus is to be tethered in when alone and even more so when in "difficult" conditions, whether alone or not. Always have the PFD on, which is a no-brainer in my book. Be smart about how you handle yourself on the boat when underway, well when anchored too I guess  I have seen tethers that are 6' long and then there are the double ones that have a 6' and a 3'. When would you use the 3' tether, in the cockpit?
> 
> Edit: One other question... Go with the elastic ones or not? Reasons?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

cb32863 said:


> So the general consensus is to be tethered in when alone and even more so when in "difficult" conditions, whether alone or not. Always have the PFD on, which is a no-brainer in my book. Be smart about how you handle yourself on the boat when underway, well when anchored too I guess  I have seen tethers that are 6' long and then there are the double ones that have a 6' and a 3'. When would you use the 3' tether, in the cockpit?
> 
> Edit: One other question... Go with the elastic ones or not? Reasons?


The idea of the double tether is to use the short one when you have no need to move very far.. (cockpit or at mast) and switch to the longer one to walk along deck (eg with jacklines) so that you can actually stand up.

The other side of this is that you clip in with one before you unclip the other so you're always 'clipped in" somewhere. With a single tether you will be unattached each time you transfer to a new point. It works well, I've wrapped the longer tether around my waist until needed.

In Fall arrest there are elastic/expandable tethers but I think they are one-time use. A true elastic (bungee) would be a gentler stop, but would it always stop you in time??


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Faster said:


> The idea of the double tether is to use the short one when you have no need to move very far.. (cockpit or at mast) and switch to the longer one to walk along deck (eg with jacklines) so that you can actually stand up.
> 
> The other side of this is that you clip in with one before you unclip the other so you're always 'clipped in" somewhere. With a single tether you will be unattached each time you transfer to a new point. It works well, I've wrapped the longer tether around my waist until needed.


I wouldn't wrap it around my waist, that defeats the purpose of the quick release snap shackle if you should fall at that moment...



> In Fall arrest there are elastic/expandable tethers but I think they are one-time use. A true elastic (bungee) would be a gentler stop, but would it always stop you in time??


Believe he's talking about the ones that have an internal bungee cord to help keep them shortened up when not in use...not a elastic shock absorbing tether.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

sailingdog said:


> Believe he's talking about the ones that have an internal bungee cord to help keep them shortened up when not in use...not a elastic shock absorbing tether.


Yes, that is the one I was referring to. Not a shock absorbing type. All great info as always SD & Faster. Thanks.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Faster said:


> In Fall arrest there are elastic/expandable tethers but I think they are one-time use. A true elastic (bungee) would be a gentler stop, but would it always stop you in time??


I think many tethers are a one-time use. Mine have some threads that will break when stressed, indicating that that the tether needs to be replaced.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Jackdale thanks for that link...interesting reading.

I always figured rounder people had an advantage in a situation like this in regards to survival time in cold water......... not self rescue wise in any condition though so its a trade off.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Also, don't rely on the SPOT, since it won't work if it is in the water.


Any reason why SPOT wont work in water? It is made waterproof as they said.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

rockDAWG said:


> Any reason why SPOT wont work in water? It is made waterproof as they said.


The transmitter in it can't transmit through water... it has to be held clear of the water to transmit, unlike an EPIRB, which is designed to float and transmit while floating. Most PLBs also won't work if submersed.

Unless you've got it clipped to your head... chances are likely it'll be submersed often enough that it fails to work effectively.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Good to know. I guess if I fall into the water, I need to hold my SPOT up for three minutes until it has a chance to transmit the SOS message to the satellite. 

Despite its limitation, I still impress with what this little thing with 3 AAA batteries can do.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Unless you've got it clipped to your head... chances are likely it'll be submersed often enough that it fails to work effectively.


Actually I was thinking about wearing a helmet while sailing in rough seas. I have bummed my head once when I was in the gallery.. With the helmet, I can easily attach my SPOT where I want to.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I am not sure I would consider a SPOT transmitter in the same category as a PLB such as the ACR Aqualink.


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## DwayneSpeer (Oct 12, 2003)

Don't fall off. A man was lost last week just off of Astoria Oregon in the Columbia river when he suffered a knock down and went overboard. Other crew members did a good job, reportedly, of keeping him in sight while they started the engine and turned around but he went under and hasn't been found yet.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I take it he wasn't wearing a PFD. If he had been, he probably would have been recovered.

But singlehanding...staying on the boat is really the only option.



DwayneSpeer said:


> Don't fall off. A man was lost last week just off of Astoria Oregon in the Columbia river when he suffered a knock down and went overboard. Other crew members did a good job, reportedly, of keeping him in sight while they started the engine and turned around but he went under and hasn't been found yet.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

jackdale said:


> I am not sure I would consider a SPOT transmitter in the same category as a PLB such as the ACR Aqualink.


Why would anyone will think that way?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

rockDAWG said:


> Why would anyone will think that way?


The Aqualink is a 406 beacon tied directly to the Copas/Sarsat satellite system. It has to be registered with national authorities. It also has a 121.5 system for homing in.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

jackdale said:


> The Aqualink is a 406 beacon tied directly to the Copas/Sarsat satellite system. It has to be registered with national authorities. It also has a 121.5 system for homing in.


Please stop. We know that. It is on their website.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

rockDAWG said:


> Please stop. We know that. It is on their website.


Sorry - I thought you were genuinely distressed by my earlier comment.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Safety ladders? I bought one of these








To help me get back in the boat after cleaning the bottom, and honestly, it's very hard to climb back in. I don't see how the Wichard high dollar ladder is any different.

*I have fallen off my own boat during a race from Annapolis to Hampton.* It was in May and I was wearing deck shoes, sailing shorts, HL bibs, 2 shirts, a hat and sunglasses. I went foward to do a sail change, the boat hit a funny wave and I grabbed the lifeline to steady myself (which quickly gave way) and in I went. We were doing about 5.5 kts and the crew was pretty distracted by getting the new sail hooked up and getting ready for the peel. My head went under the water I remember looking up and seeing the boat go by, I kicked my feet, and lunged for the toe rail. Got it just behind the primary winch and then waited to catch my breath, the other crew helped me aboard.

It happens really quick, everything, and I got lucky lunging for the toe rail. Some of the other things that made it seem not so bad: 
I have a low freeboard on my boat. 
I try to stay in shape (do pull ups)
I had great crew who reacted quickly
It was also in May, and not a frostbite race. 
We weren't under a chute in 25+.

The not so good part:
I was not tethered in, nor was I wearing a life jacket. 
I did lose a hat, sunglasses, and a cell phone
I was cold for another couple hours until I dried out. 
It was also in the southern bay, which is quite a bit larger than the upper.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

The chances are small to get back aboard, and under certain conditions they are even smaller. I was lucky to survive being thrown over the lifelines. Before I hit the water the boat fell off the wave, and yanked me back aboard via my harness. My back was in horrible shape, but I was aboard.

Staying on the windward side, and shortening your tether helps a lot. Sometimes it's just plain dumb luck that saves you.....*i2f*


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I dove off my boat with the ladder up and aboard alone. Swam over to the next boat, climbed up their ladder and my wife found me having a beer with them when she got back in the dink. Isn't that always an option?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

For those of us with walk-through transoms with fold-up ladders that latch to become part of the stern railing (recent Catalinas, etc.), it is a good idea to attach a line to the latch that dangles down near the waterline. I became concerned about this when I was working on the boat alone in the deserted marina last March. I realized that if I fell overboard I had no easy way to get back aboard, and very limited survival time in the cold waters. Having the line to pull makes it easy to drop the ladder from in the water.

None of this addresses the other complexities of getting to the stern if you fall overboard when single-handing, but it does solve the problem of getting in the boat once you get to the stern.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

For my solo sail to Block Island earlier this month, I was dragging the inflatable dinghy.

Since I was dragging it anyway, I added extra line to the painter, figuring that I could swim to it, grab one of the handles and swing myself up into it. Once in it, I had options like 1) resting, 2) starting the engine or 3) pulling the painter into the dinghy until I got to the stern of the boat. I figure you really have to swim for the side of the dinghy. If you go for the painter, you'll end up under the dinghy with no way to get to the side to climb in.

That and I put my cell phone in a ziplock bag in my pocket. Far from foolproof (and 2 ziplocks is much better) but the handheld waterproof VHF was dead. I need a new battery for it. Once I get that going again it stays clipped to me. In Long Island Sound, as Barry says, a handheld VHF will work wonders.

Oh, and I had a jackline and a home-made harness that I used whenever farther than swimming distance from land. (Swimming distance in cold water is not very far.)

And I'll sometimes wear the life vest, if only so my wife gets the insurance money.

--

I would like to validate my methods with someone else at the helm. Maybe next time the DM3000-autopilot-and-sailtrim-commentator is aboard (DavidPM)

I installed a snapshackle with a very long line to it, for lowering the swim ladder from down in the water. But it didn't work as well as I would have liked -- the horseshoe bouy is in the same spot and they interfered with each other. Still need to work on that.

Regards,
Brad


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

I'd like to see pics of this arrangement of a line to a latch to drop the stern ladder. My boat has a drop-down ladder and an opening in the stern pulpit, but the ladder is tied up with a length of small stuff. Some kind of quick-release latch sounds like a better solution. 

I guess the moral of the story here is stay on the boat. 

Is the consensus to clip on ALL the time? I.e., even if just sailing in relatively protected waters? My sailing area is the Piankatank River and the nearby Chesapeake and related areas. I likely will make some longer trips, but all will be confined to the Chespeake and related rivers, bays, coves and inlets. So do y'all think I should be clipped in every time I go out? Or is that advisable mostly in rougher conditions?


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

ilikerust said:


> So do y'all think I should be clipped in every time I go out? Or is that advisable mostly in rougher conditions?


If you sail alone, then probably depends on how much you want to stay out of the water. All it takes is an accidental trip. I don't clip in unless there is really rough weather, but then again, I don't sail alone.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

ilikerust said:


> Is the consensus to clip on ALL the time? I.e., even if just sailing in relatively protected waters? My sailing area is the Piankatank River and the nearby Chesapeake and related areas. I likely will make some longer trips, but all will be confined to the Chespeake and related rivers, bays, coves and inlets. So do y'all think I should be clipped in every time I go out? Or is that advisable mostly in rougher conditions?


I clip on:

- at night
- offshore
- single-handed
- deteriorating weather

I wear an inflatable pfd with harness underway.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

ilikerust said:


> I guess the moral of the story here is stay on the boat.


Said this before, but: we have THREE rules on board:

Rule #1 - Stay on the boat
Rule #2 - Stay on the boat
Rule #3 - STAY ON THE #@$%*& BOAT!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Did you say something???



Faster said:


> Said this before, but: we have THREE rules on board:
> 
> Rule #1 - Stay on the boat
> Rule #2 - Stay on the boat
> Rule #3 - STAY ON THE #@$%*& BOAT!!


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

One more thing

On many boats everyone has their own tethers and moves them around. I prefer to have tethers mounted in strategic positions: the cockpit (near the companionway and the helm), attached to jacklines, the base of the mast and maybe the bow. When you come out of the companionway, you clip on first. If you have to go forward, you attach a jackline tether and then release the cockpit tether. This way you are always attached.


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## GCsailor (Oct 3, 2010)

...you get wet.

Then you feel stupid.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Do inflatable pfds with built in harness work as well as dedicated harness plus inflatable pfd? At the Mustang booth in Anapolis the sales person told me that the pfd with harness was not for lifting a person out of the water. The implications of that statement are manifold. Does anyone here have experience with each of these systems and be willing to comment on their relative effectiveness?
John


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Most of the harnesses for PFDs, whether integrated or separate, are not designed for lifting the person. They don't support the person properly for lifting purposes. A climbing harness is designed for lifting a person.



ccriders said:


> Do inflatable pfds with built in harness work as well as dedicated harness plus inflatable pfd? At the Mustang booth in Anapolis the sales person told me that the pfd with harness was not for lifting a person out of the water. The implications of that statement are manifold. Does anyone here have experience with each of these systems and be willing to comment on their relative effectiveness?
> John


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Most of the harnesses for PFDs, whether integrated or separate, are not designed for lifting the person. They don't support the person properly for lifting purposes. A climbing harness is designed for lifting a person.


That seems problematic. It is possible to have one harness that does both?

Regards,
Brad


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## kevandraper (Aug 30, 2010)

I have found using a climbing harness more comfortable and easier to live with than a standard chest harness. Just wear it over my shorts. Although I did have an embarrasing moment up the mast, I was pop riveting a firdall blipper radar reflector near the top. Had been winched up by my partner and tied off. Hanging from my climbing harness was my electric drill and my pop rivitor tied on aswell. All was going relatively well until a rivet would'nt pop. Applied a bit of extra pressure and bang, it popped. However at the same time my foot slipped and my legs went either side of the mast, family jewels got well and truely battered against the mast and I found myself hanging upside down with a pop riviter and electric drill banging against my ears. My partner had got bored and had gone below to make tea !!!!
Had I been using a chest harness, the damage would have been limited to the crown jewels !!!


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

So what I'm taking away from this is that in general, the preference is to stay on the boat?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Clipping on before you come on deck*



jackdale said:


> One more thing
> 
> On many boats everyone has their own tethers and moves them around. I prefer to have tethers mounted in strategic positions: the cockpit (near the companionway and the helm), attached to jacklines, the base of the mast and maybe the bow. When you come out of the companionway, you clip on first. If you have to go forward, you attach a jackline tether and then release the cockpit tether. This way you are always attached.


I think that you are saying that you clip on before coming on deck, if not it is a great idea. Years ago I was in an overnight race on Lake Ontario where someone was lost in the middle of the night. He was coming into the cockpit (Shark 24") with tether in hand when the boat was knocked down (it was one of those nights). He was lost. Since then our rule has been that you go into the cabin with the tether attached and unhook inside the boat. On the way out your hook up before climbing up the stairs.

A friend's adult son went over the side going NYC to Bermuda a few years ago. He was wearing a harness and dragged back along the jackline until a combination of the tether getting tight in a hurry and the boat's motion and wave action threw him back aboard quite forcefully. Had some bad scrapes and bruises but beats the alternatives.

Lesson to be learned - have good jacklines, harness, and tethers and use them regularly and carefully. Your chances become much better.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> I think that you are saying that you clip on before coming on deck, if not it is a great idea.
> 
> Lesson to be learned - have good jacklines, harness, and tethers and use them regularly and carefully. Your chances become much better.


Yes - you reach into the cockpit, grab a tether and clip on before stepping out of the companionway.

Also at least 4 attachment points in the cockpit, one in each corner, with a tether attached.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The issue is simple, a safety harness for deck work needs to be attached above your center of gravity so that if you do go overboard, you aren't dragged head down. By necessity, it needs to be above the floating ribs so that it doesn't cause damage when you get stopped short by it. BTW, this is one reason most PFDs with integrated harnesses have a minimum height requirement-5' 8" or 5' 10" in many cases, and should not be worn by vertically challenged people. The one PFD series that doesn't seem to have this issue are the Spinlocks-since the harness height is adjustable IIRC, but they are NOT USCG APPROVED...

A climbing harness, unless it is a full body one, attaches at waist and lifts via the legs and waist... In theory, you could wear a climbing harness and attach the climbing harness to the PFD's safety harness via a webbing sling or something similar. Then you could clip into the webbing and the PFD's safety harness, and that could be used to lift you as well. It would be rather cumbersome to get in and out of.

IMHO, it is better to just stay on the boat instead.



Bene505 said:


> That seems problematic. It is possible to have one harness that does both?
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

So anyone have a good resource they can point me to for more information about how to set up jacklines, etc.?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ilikerust said:


> So anyone have a good resource they can point me to for more information about how to set up jacklines, etc.?


Yup...got one on my blog...


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

sailingdog said:


> Yup...got one on my blog...


Good stuff. Finally got around to reading it. 

One question: you recommend "Spectra core line 1/4″ or 3/16″ for lashing the end of the jacklines in place."

What is the preferred method for said lashing? Take several passes through the padeye and through the loop at the end of the jackline strap and tie off with a .... ?


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## Plumbean (Dec 17, 2009)

sailingdog said:


> The one PFD series that doesn't seem to have this issue are the Spinlocks-since the harness height is adjustable IIRC, but they are NOT USCG APPROVED...


I have a Deckvest and am pretty happy with it. BTW, it is SOLAS and CE approved -- I think the lack of USCG approval is a bureaucratic issue not a safety one, and in any event I have plenty of USCG approved life jackets on board. I think it is also made to allow lifting as well, but couldn't locate this immediately on their website. Incidentally, in looking at Spinlock's website I found out that certain Deckvest models (including mine) are subject to a recall. I'll post that in a separate thread.


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## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

I have given this issue a fair bit of prior thought and rigged a quick release line for a transom hung ladder long before my first launch. Yes, the line gets discolored from hanging just above the water's surface but I really don't care about that. 

I have read, also, that some folks bolt steps onto their transom-hung rudder(s) and have actually found it a workable solution for self-rescue. While I haven't added steps yet, I may do so soon as I am a fan of redundant systems.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Michael K said:


> I have given this issue a fair bit of prior thought and rigged a quick release line for a transom hung ladder long before my first launch...


I had the same worry as soon as I realized I would be working on the boat in an empty marina last March. If I fell into the 45° water I would not have much time to pull myself out. So I did this:








​


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

My boat is 25' long, with an 8' beam at the widest point.

You guys say that if your tether and jackline let you fall overboard from the windward side, that they're too long. Geeze, my tether would have to be 1' long to prevent that at some points along the hull, which would be nearly useless.

Advice?


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

ilikerust said:


> What are your thoughts (anyone) on trailing a floating line while sailing? Say, 50 or more feet of line with a knot every 18" or something like that.
> 
> If you fell over the side while underway, would it go by so fast you wouldn't have a chance to swim over and grab it? I suppose that is a question of how long would such a line need to be in order to be useful.
> 
> ...


 In the old days, before fancy nav gear, they used a "walker", or taffrail, log. This was a torpedo shaped object from 6 to 12 inches long with fins that made it spin. It was attached to the ship by a long line that connected it to a mechanical device that counted the revolutions and could track the distance traveled. Uncounted sailors going over the side were saved by grabbing the rope and holding on till they could be rescued. The idea works, though not much for a singlehander.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> My boat is 25' long, with an 8' beam at the widest point.
> 
> You guys say that if your tether and jackline let you fall overboard from the windward side, that they're too long. Geeze, my tether would have to be 1' long to prevent that at some points along the hull, which would be nearly useless.
> 
> Advice?


* Run an additional jackline down the center, or at least a clip point at the mast base.
* Falling to windward is rare; use the windward jackline.
* Stay low. There is no shame in crawling or sliding. When crawling, lifelines help a lot.


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## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> My boat is 25' long, with an 8' beam at the widest point.
> 
> You guys say that if your tether and jackline let you fall overboard from the windward side, that they're too long. Geeze, my tether would have to be 1' long to prevent that at some points along the hull, which would be nearly useless.
> 
> Advice?


Several months ago someone wrote in these forums he clipped a spare halyard to his harrness. That seems like a prettty good solution to me.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Michael K said:


> Several months ago someone wrote in these forums he clipped a spare halyard to his harness. That seems like a pretty good solution to me.


Please, try things before suggesting them.

* When on the cabin top the length is much different than when at the bow.
* Explain how you get back on, if the boat is heeling 25 degrees.
* On a small boat, this will create a great increase in heeling moment, perhaps leading to a knock-down.
* Unless the halyard has a lot of slack in it, it will make it impossible for the sailor to get low and hold on.

I think there are reasons it is not done.


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

Well when we say "spare halyard", are we talking about a line that he sometimes used as a halyard, but also used as a tether line when not in use as a halyard? In which case, we do not assume it was in use as a halyard (i.e., run up to the mast head). I have a couple lines in my lazarette that are or can be used as halyards if needed (e.g., for a spinnaker), but also could be pressed into service as a jack line of sorts. 

Or are we indeed talking about an unused halyard that is hanging off the mast? In which case, I agree with pdqaltair that it would not seem to me to provide a very good tether line.


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## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

pdqaltair said:


> Please, try things before suggesting them.
> 
> * When on the cabin top the length is much different than when at the bow.
> * Explain how you get back on, if the boat is heeling 25 degrees.
> ...


It isn't my idea and I haven't tried this approach yet, but I do believe it may have some merit. I am asssuming that a spare halyard would be paid out so that the end would be just above deck level. If that end were attached to your harness, you may not have total freeedom to move about in a crouched position but you could have greater range by standing a bit more erect; with a second tether restricting your lateral range, you'd still be able to pull yourself back over to the deck even after momentarily hanging out 25 degrees from the mast. Imagine how much easier it would be to pull yourself over than it would be to pull yourself up. Aboard catamarans like what pdq and I have, 25 degrees is a non-issue.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

ilikerust said:


> Well when we say "spare halyard", are we talking about a line that he sometimes used as a halyard, but also used as a tether line when not in use as a halyard? In which case, we do not assume it was in use as a halyard (i.e., run up to the mast head). I have a couple lines in my lazarette that are or can be used as halyards if needed (e.g., for a spinnaker), but also could be pressed into service as a jack line of sorts.
> 
> Or are we indeed talking about an unused halyard that is hanging off the mast? In which case, I agree with pdqaltair that it would not seem to me to provide a very good tether line.


I too have heard this suggested. I even gave it a brief trial on a fair day; perhaps, I though, it would be useful when motoring on flat water but alone on deck. Certainly on my boat, it proved to be a potential hazard.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

I think the halyard idea is in addition to the normal tether. Not substituting for it.

Regards,
Brad


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Bene505 said:


> I think the halyard idea is in addition to the normal tether. Not substituting for it.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Try it.

If you place enough slack in the halyard so that it does not pick you off the deck when low at the bow, there will be so much slack whipping around it will catch in the spreaders and around your neck.

Those that suggested it did not think it was a supplement, though your suggestion was hopeful.


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## ffiill (Jul 15, 2010)

Although 34 foot my boat has a lot of freeboard.I had belived that my stern ladder was quite capable of being used to board the boat from the water,that is until I tried it out whilst on the hard.
No way so I added an extra three steps of stainless tubing which are free to swing.
The advantage of the free swing that is if you are afloat you can get your feet on first rung with a shorter bottom section almost parallel to the water surface without it having to be some 5 foot long below water level and as you pull up body weight straightens the ladder to vertical.


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## Rangernewell (Oct 23, 2010)

On day while on my boat I decided to dive in ....Once in the water I realized the ladder was not out. I just swan around back and climbed up the outboard ....A little stippery but I was able to get back on board fairly easily


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

On the subject of rope ladders, I made one on the way to a local anchorage recently out of some spare line. At anchor I looped it over a winch and tried using it to climb aboard (with wife in cockpit ready to assist). It was not what I would call easy. Since my center of gravity was not over my foot, my foot would push the ladder under the hull and I would be lying on my back, basically under the boat. It didn't make it any easier that the hull's curvature was so large at the point where I was trying to board.

If you're going to use a rope ladder, or any free-swinging ladder, definitely practice with it first and try it in different places on the hull. Transom or shrouds might have been easier. After a few tries, I figured out what I needed to do to get the ladder to stay more or less vertical, and I wouldn't want to be trying to solve that problem in an emergency.

On another topic, let us not forget that the great singlehanders circumnavigated without a harness and tether, because they felt it was more of a liability than an asset. They just made sure they knew how to move around on their boats safely: "One hand for you, and one for the boat." I'm not advocating that policy, but while you're practicing reboarding with a rope ladder, you might also want to practice duck-walking around on deck, untethered, always with a secure handhold, in whatever conditions you feel appropriate and safe.


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## JaredC (Dec 4, 2010)

Rangernewell said:


> On day while on my boat I decided to dive in ....Once in the water I realized the ladder was not out. I just swan around back and climbed up the outboard ....A little stippery but I was able to get back on board fairly easily


Power-boaters sometimes talk about using the engine's tilt function as an emergency lifting tool... I wouldn't want to try it, and especially not in any kind of rough water. Standing on a wet engine foot is hard enough on land, and the potential for injury if you slip off... Props are sharp.


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## Rangernewell (Oct 23, 2010)

I agree Jared ...I'm certianly not recomending it....That appeared to be the easiest way to get back on board.When you are solo, you do what ya gotta do ......Now I tow an inflatable, so I would go for that first


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

AdamLein said:


> On another topic, let us not forget that the great singlehanders circumnavigated without a harness and tether, because they felt it was more of a liability than an asset. They just made sure they knew how to move around on their boats safely: "One hand for you, and one for the boat." I'm not advocating that policy, but while you're practicing reboarding with a rope ladder, you might also want to practice duck-walking around on deck, untethered, always with a secure handhold, in whatever conditions you feel appropriate and safe.


That is probably why there are so few great singlehanders! Anyone remember Eric Taberly?

Gary H. Lucas


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

jaschrumpf said:


> How come nobody likes my winch idea? :laugher


I like your idea.
I think that it's a great idea; why didn't I think of that?

Dick


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

I believe I have said this somewhere on this board before - why is it that single handers feel this urge to walk around their boat? When I have to go on deck in dodgy conditions and I'm on my own, I do it on my hand and knees. That way I'm firmly inside the guard rails and the chances of going over the side are reduced by 98%.

If you want to be the hero and look like a Barishnikov moving around your boat then be prepared to pay an exorbitant price for it.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Not sure if it was mentioned, but if you do run jack lines in calm seas, wet them down first. Nylon stretches a lot when its wet (when the weather is bad) so install them wet. If installed dry, they'll be very loose when they do get wet (when the weather is bad).


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## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

I have jumped off while under sail doing about 2 knots. It was very tough to get back on, I tied off on a cleat and winch to make a step. Other boaters passing by would stop to see if we needed help so I would think it's safe to say few people ever try a real person for a man over board drill.


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## JaredC (Dec 4, 2010)

Rangernewell said:


> I agree Jared ...I'm certianly not recomending it....That appeared to be the easiest way to get back on board.When you are solo, you do what ya gotta do ......Now I tow an inflatable, so I would go for that first


Hey, I'm not disagreeing. Climbing up the outboard seems smarter than swimming to shore.


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

lapworth said:


> I have jumped off while under sail doing about 2 knots. It was very tough to get back on, I tied off on a cleat and winch to make a step. Other boaters passing by would stop to see if we needed help so I would think it's safe to say few people ever try a real person for a man over board drill.


Do you think conducting a real-person MOB drill warrants a "securite" call to alert other boats that you don't actually need help?


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Omatako said:


> I believe I have said this somewhere on this board before - why is it that single handers feel this urge to walk around their boat? When I have to go on deck in dodgy conditions and I'm on my own, I do it on my hand and knees. That way I'm firmly inside the guard rails and the chances of going over the side are reduced by 98%.
> 
> If you want to be the hero and look like a Barishnikov moving around your boat then be prepared to pay an exorbitant price for it.


I hear you Omatako it makes perfect sence to me , If I was worried about what it ( anything really) looked like to others I wouldnt be alive now lol


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## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

rmeador said:


> Do you think conducting a real-person MOB drill warrants a "securite" call to alert other boats that you don't actually need help?


no who do you wan't me to alert?


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## lovelove (Aug 14, 2011)

T37Chef said:


> Since watching that ridiculous movie "Open Water 2: Adrift" and realizing our boat had no good way to get back aboard [...]


... which goes to show the movie isn't that ridiculous after all


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## VetMike (Mar 5, 2011)

I like discussions like this! Whenever I am entering any new situation I always examine the risks and figure a way to avoid the risk and a way to extricate myself if needs be. Then I expect the unexpected.


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## ffiill (Jul 15, 2010)

GaryHLucas said:


> That is probably why there are so few great singlehanders! Anyone remember Eric Taberly?
> 
> Gary H. Lucas


Not forgetting sloculm who was never seen again and Alard Coles-Heavy Weather Sailing who admitted living to a ripe old age because once harnesses and lifejackets came on the scene in 1950s he used them!


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## sailak (Apr 15, 2007)

Allanbc said:


> Sometimes adrenaline makes something that seems impossible very possible.


Or something that is normally very easy impossible.


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## OtterGreen (May 10, 2011)

on my boat i have a dove tail , canoe tail, whatever you prefer, it is swept and allows for easy climbing. i understand after a fall and being in shock after all of it, it may not be easy but if i needed to i could drop the outboard to help climb on. besides that, i have a long main sheet that is fed through an external climbing micro pulley going upward. i tie it to a riggers belt with hopes that WHEN i do go over the weight of my body will release the main and give me a chance to get to the boat instead of it sailing out of sight.


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

I want to Thank everyone that has made a post in this, I am working on "Sometimes" working for a September splash time.

Just 2 days ago i was thinking about Jack lines and this has given me a lot of helpful information.

again thank you All.


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

OtterGreen said:


> on my boat i have a dove tail , canoe tail, whatever you prefer, it is swept and allows for easy climbing. i understand after a fall and being in shock after all of it, it may not be easy but if i needed to i could drop the outboard to help climb on. besides that, i have a long main sheet that is fed through an external climbing micro pulley going upward. i tie it to a riggers belt with hopes that WHEN i do go over the weight of my body will release the main and give me a chance to get to the boat instead of it sailing out of sight.


Otter,
You mean you attach the mainsheet to a belt you are wearing? The picture I visualize is you being dragged, your body resistance sheeting in the main.  How does the sheet attach to the belt? With a Quick Release that will release under load I hope.

Better to balance the trim with a bit of weather helm so that she'll head up into irons, then test it out... (no don't jump over, release the helm :laugher)


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## seattle sailor (Sep 5, 2020)

When I was young I bought a Clark 14, similar to an International 14. Bought it in February and couldn't wait to try it in Elliot Bay Seattle. Maybe 15 kn. Had a tiller extension. Tag on it said, extremely strong, will not warp. Boat sailed great. The tiller extension allowed me to hike out until I broke it. Now I couldn't get my weight outboard and reach the tiller. I capsised. I stood on the centerboard and righted the boat. It came up but went down again as soon as I was aboard. That happened a few times. Later, ashore, I found that the flotation compartments under the deck had flooded and the boat would not even float upright at the dock when I held it by the mast. I had been seen from ashore and the police boat rescued me and towed the boat ashore upside down. I was very angry, it was a brand new boat built by the Clark Boat Co. In Kent/WA.


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