# Delta vs Mansion supreme anchor



## johnnyboy2 (Feb 25, 2011)

I am looking at an anchor for my Jeanneau 42 DS sailboat. considering the Delta and Mansion supreme plow type anchors. 

any feedback on these brands.

I anchor in the Chesapeake bay area, both hard and soft mud mostly.


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

The Manson supreme is the "SUPREME" alternative between the 2 options IMHO.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

*Supreme??*



noelex77 said:


> The Manson supreme is the "SUPREME" alternative between the 2 options IMHO.


Why oh why?

I use a Delta in the Chessie and am very happy with it.

I know there is a lot of (what I consider) hype about the so-called 'next generation' anchors (the most obnoxious of the hype-generating companies, Rocna, is right now crashing and burning on anythingsailing.com). It so reminds me of the iPhone (AKA JesusPhone) craze.

I am sure the Mansone Supreme is a good anchor but so is the Delta. So is the Bruce.

In very soft mud, actually the good ole Danforth has much to recommend but you did not ask for that...


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

"obnoxious"? I have been on this forum for about 4 years and
can't remember Craig Smith of Rocna Anchors saying anything
obnoxious or rude about his competitors. Nor have I seen any
negative comments from his customers. He basically states the
facts about his products and refers to tests done by others.
Am I missing something? No affiliation and do not own a Rocna.

Dabnis


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Why oh why?
> 
> I use a Delta in the Chessie and am very happy with it.
> 
> ...


I believe its not hype and the new generation anchors are superior.
I base my decision manly on observing anchor behavior especial when diving on anchors and watching them in real world conditions. I also note which boats drag or have a lot of trouble setting their anchor (assuming adequate technique)
I also respect the view of other cruisers, particularly in face to face discussions, but also the reported performance in forums like these.

I think the Delta is a good anchor an excellent value for money in many parts of the world. It sets well, but I have observed several delta anchors in a very slow drag while the anchor remains set.
In summary I think the Delta s a very reliable anchor in moderate conditions , but I do not believe it has the holding power of the Rocna, Manson supreme and Spade anchors. It is however superior IMHO to the CQR and Bruce generation of anchors.

You have a good point about the Danforth in soft mud it is an excellent anchor. It, however, struggles in harder substrates and weed.
It also sometimes does not maintain its set with major wind shifts and if it drags, it drags very quickly. These latter two characteristics make it less than ideal as a primary anchor


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

I would pick the Manson for many reasons but the real difference is its ability to grab the bottom. The delta plows the bottom which opens up the surface of the bottom. The Manson Supreme and Rocna both compress the surface which translates into better holding power.

Imagine a "V" shaped snow plow. It pushes snow to the sides. Now redesign that plow into a "U" shape with the open end in front. That plow will not go far.

And I am on 2 forums that Craig will frequent and have never seen him get obnoxious. Regardless, he produces a great anchor.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

dabnis said:


> "obnoxious"? I have been on this forum for about 4 years and
> can't remember Craig Smith of Rocna Anchors saying anything
> obnoxious or rude about his competitors. Nor have I seen any
> negative comments from his customers. He basically states the
> ...


Ehm, 'obnoxious' is a very gentle term for the documented behavior of Craig Smith and probably the Rocna company (as we learned over the last couple days, the relationship between the two turns out to be more complicated than expected). If you want to read about their antics, look for instance into the examples collected by our very own Maine Sail in the AS thread:

Manson vs. Rocna

uke


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

If there is a "new generation" I would say it is a Fortress. Much lighter and determined to be very effective in the tests mentioned. Made of high-tech materials, thousands of real world tests. 

It's a little awkward for my bow with the protruding stocks. So it's my backup.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

noelex77 said:


> I believe its not hype and the new generation anchors are superior.
> I base my decision manly on observing anchor behavior especial when diving on anchors and watching them in real world conditions. I also note which boats drag or have a lot of trouble setting their anchor (assuming adequate technique)
> I also respect the view of other cruisers, particularly in face to face discussions, but also the reported performance in forums like these.
> 
> ...


I think we can agree, overall.

I don't want to say that all anchors are equal in all conditions. Let's be optimistic and even believe that humanity does learn something over time and that the newer anchors do, indeed, have overall some advantages over older models. Many consumer products improve incrementally over time, so this is quite possibly the case for anchors, too.

What I object to is the idea that there is some magical quantum leap in performance between 'next gen' (how I love this word!) anchors and all the rest.

I also agree with you about the weaknesses of the Danforth that you point out.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Pamlicotraveler said:


> If there is a "new generation" I would say it is a Fortress. Much lighter and determined to be very effective in the tests mentioned. Made of high-tech materials, thousands of real world tests.
> 
> It's a little awkward for my bow with the protruding stocks. So it's my backup.


Excellent point. And, pound for pound, the test winner pretty much everywhere (except on the Rocna web page where they falsified the test results from the SAIL magazine).

A Fortress is my stern anchor.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

treilley said:


> I would pick the Manson for many reasons but the real difference is its ability to grab the bottom. The delta plows the bottom which opens up the surface of the bottom. The Manson Supreme and Rocna both compress the surface which translates into better holding power.
> 
> Imagine a "V" shaped snow plow. It pushes snow to the sides. Now redesign that plow into a "U" shape with the open end in front. That plow will not go far.
> 
> And I am on 2 forums that Craig will frequent and have never seen him get obnoxious. Regardless, he produces a great anchor.


With all due respect, I don't think these plausibly-sounding analogies (snow plow) make a lot of sense. Just one example: the snow plow rests on a hard surface when you pull it, the anchor does not (except when there is a layer of rock under it, in which case it becomes a question of rolling your dice with any anchor). All anchors are designed to bury INTO the substrate, not slide on it, which is exactly the opposite of a snow plow, you definitely don't want to bury that into the road.

I have seen a Delta anchor completely buried deep into the sand, only the chain sticking out, after a few days of storm. I am sure that a Manson (Bugel, Wasi, Spade, ..., even a Rocna) would do the same, this is where an anchor gets the serious holding power. In this situation, the question is which one gets buried faster and deeper, and I don't think we can answer this by arm chair anchoring.

Oh, and Craig never "produced" anything (other than hot air, and that one foul-smelling). If you look at the AS link I posted, you will seen that his so-called affiliation with Rocna was very tenuous at best, and that the company does its utmost to make that clear.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

I own a Rocna and a Manson Supreme and have also owned a Delta. My vote hands down is to buy the Manson Supreme... It has Lloyds SHHP certifications, is not outsourced to China, and is still manufactured in NZ oh and yes it still costs less than a similar anchor made in China, go figure..

Craig Smith is obnoxious and has proven to be very misleading. The anchor though, Rocna, suffers from none of Craig's issues and it is one hell of an anchor. But not worth a penny more than a Manson, and ideally, based on country of origin/manufacture, should cost LESS not more..

I once wrongly believed the Rocna was the better built/put together anchor than the Manson Supreme but I now have serious doubt that it is, what with all the intentional lies and deceit put forth by Craig & Rocna who knows what to believe..

For those who have read Craig's posts on any of the Sailboatowners.com web sites please keep in mind that we keep those forums "family friendly" and have had to edit many of Craig's posts. What you have read there is moderated Craig Smith so as not to start gun fights.

Here's a sampling of some of *Criag's postings* and why many find him to be so obnoxious.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I have a 35 lb CQR and set the anchor in 25 feet of water. Then dove on it to see what it looked like. The anchor was lying on its side. I righted it so it would dig into the sand and it did (I dove on it later in the day and it was set). If I had just left it on its side would it have righted itself and dug in, or just stay in that postion and drag?


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I don't think we can answer this by arm chair anchoring.


My arm chair is anchored tonight, as it is most nights, with a big Rocna. Expecting a some strong wind in the early hous of the morning, so perhaps arm chair anchoring can provide some worthwhile data points.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

With all due respect to all the other anchor designs, for every one has a strong opinion of his respective choice, please allow me to give a testament to actual experience:
My 4,000 lb. Cape Dory 25 had a 3 way 120 degree anchor mooring in soft mud in the Broadkill river. We had a blow which the Weather service gave 35 knots, gusting to 49 knots. Tidal current swapped the 14 mile up stream marina. My 2 way 1/2" nylon painter chafed so badly as to cause me to discard them after the storm. The anchors held, while there was destruction all around.
What anchors?
(3) 22# Deltas, recommended for 25' - 41'

Dick


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> I have a 35 lb CQR and set the anchor in 25 feet of water. Then dove on it to see what it looked like. The anchor was lying on its side. I righted it so it would dig into the sand and it did (I dove on it later in the day and it was set). If I had just left it on its side would it have righted itself and dug in, or just stay in that postion and drag?


The CQR can be difficult to set on occasions. Its stars off on its side and as it buries it rotates so the shank becomes upright.
If you dive on it digging the tip in sometimes helps, but putting it upright to begin with doesn't seem to improve the set.
Always reverse on your anchor if it will not hold full cruising revs it wll not cope with any wind.
Sometimes the CQR needs multiple tries to get it to hold.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

noelex77 said:


> The CQR can be difficult to set on occasions. Its stars off on its side and as it buries it rotates so the shank becomes upright.
> If you dive on it digging the tip in sometimes helps, but putting it upright to begin with doesn't seem to improve the set.
> Always reverse on your anchor if it will not hold full cruising revs it wll not cope with any wind.
> Sometimes the CQR needs multiple tries to get it to hold.


Roger that,
I just bought a 35 lb Delta as a spare anchor. Reading above maybe I should return it and get a 25 lb Mason Supreme. What do you think? Where are the Delta's made?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I'm thinking that anybody who does see the dreaded Mr Smith Jr as having behaved in less than a gentlemanly manner is kidding themselves. I've always thought that perhaps he was simply overly passionate about the product and this may well be true but he does have a less than appealing manner when it comes to communicating that passion.

For the first four years we owned the Womboat we had a 27lb CQR on 35m chain. Once in a rather nasty squall that gusted to 40 knots and blew consistently plus 30 for half an hour or so we dragged about 15' then held. In sand with 20 odd knots the CQR was useless and that is why when we changed, we decided to try Rocna. Thus far no serious complaints. We have dragged in around 30knts gusting but I only had 3:1 max out and no snubber. The chop was quite severe and I suspect that it is more the fault of the lack of scope and snubber that caused the problem. 

If I was to have a backup I'd get a Fortress instead of our current #2 which is another CQR.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

tdw said:


> I'm thinking that anybody who does see the dreaded Mr Smith Jr as having behaved in less than a gentlemanly manner is kidding themselves. I've always thought that perhaps he was simply overly passionate about the product and this may well be true but he does have a less than appealing manner when it comes to communicating that passion.
> 
> For the first four years we owned the Womboat we had a 27lb CQR on 35m chain. Once in a rather nasty squall that gusted to 40 knots and blew consistently plus 30 for half an hour or so we dragged about 15' then held. In sand with 20 odd knots the CQR was useless and that is why when we changed, we decided to try Rocna. Thus far no serious complaints. We have dragged in around 30knts gusting but I only had 3:1 max out and no snubber. The chop was quite severe and I suspect that it is more the fault of the lack of scope and snubber that caused the problem.
> 
> If I was to have a backup I'd get a Fortress instead of our current #2 which is another CQR.


Don't quite understand, the 27 lb CQR holding 40 knots, what were you anchored in? Seems like it was holding well, then you say the CQR could not hold in 20 knots?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

casey1999 said:


> Don't quite understand, the 27 lb CQR holding 40 knots, what were you anchored in? Seems like it was holding well, then you say the CQR could not hold in 20 knots?


In the first instance we were anchored in mud. Had been there for a couple of days in a cove where prevailing wind meant excellent protection. An unexpected change came through leaving us quite exposed and bow on to some serious waves (white water). Gusts were out to 40knts. In those conditions when calm prevailed after half an hour or so we had moved back by 15'. I say this in praise of the CQR. Really I was quite amazed at how well it held.

In the later instance we were over sand. Completely different locality, couple of hundred nms away. We'd anchored over clear sand and nothing I did could convince the CQR to hold. It simply refused to stay put.

Our CQR was old and needed replacing. In light of its failure to hold in sand, in a area I want to revisit we decided to give Rocna a go. IMHO Manson Supreme would be just as good and I'm also feeling good about Fortress though they are expensive.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Agree with the "new generation" hype comments. The Rocna and its brethren seem to have a sharper point to initiate burying the anchor and this may be worth something. However, I am not giving up my CQR anytime soon. I carry a danforth for storm purposes, assuming I am not anchoring in a weedy bottom and I also carry a Fortress as a lunch hook. The Fortress has a sharper leading edge than my high tensile danforth and probably penetrates a sandy bottom more quickly.

I also use a smaller Fortress on a 23' power boat and have been caught anchored in a 30+kt squall with excellent results. I once got caught in an 18' catboat in 50 kts with a 6# danforth--also with excellent results on a sandy bottom. However, the Fortress doesn't do so well with a weedy bottom and will "sail" on the way to the bottom in a current or if you are drifting. I've tried the mud palms on the Fortress, too, but they don't seem to do much if you are in a really gooey "black mayonnaise" situation. 

With any of these anchors, bottom conditions and technique seems to matter. If you are expecting a wind shift, you might put out a second anchor oriented to handle the shift before its too late. 

In any case, no one anchor type seems to be superior in ALL conditions. If conditions are dicey, you need to keep an anchor watch!


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

In my opinion, the most important characteristics for an anchor are setting ability, resetting/veering and holding power. I have used all of the anchors mentioned in a variety of bottoms and currently have a Rocna as my primary. Comparing the two anchors, a manson sets and resets/veers marginally better and has much better holding power (it has much more blade area). The fortress anchor mentioned earlier in this thread has by far the best holding power but it does not do very well in the reset/veer category which is the reason why I don't consider it an appropriate primary anchor but an excellent second/stern anchor. There are also other factors such as how it sits on the bow roller that the anchors tend to do similarly at.

The delta is a fine anchor and works extremely well if you oversize it enough but pound for pound, I would definitely want the manson supreme when a storm starts brewing.


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Roger that,
> I just bought a 35 lb Delta as a spare anchor. Reading above maybe I should return it and get a 25 lb Mason Supreme. What do you think? Where are the Delta's made?


I would definitely use the Delta or Manson Supreme as your primary anchor and keep the CQR as the spare.
The holding power of a 35LB Delta and 25LB MS will be similar in most seabed's. Given that your boat can handle a 35Lb anchor my preference would be for a 35Lb Manson Supreme. 
When you are at anchor and the wind is howling you wont remember how much the anchor cost.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

noelex77 said:


> I would definitely use the Delta or Manson Supreme as your primary anchor and keep the CQR as the spare.
> The holding power of a 35LB Delta and 25LB MS will be similar in most seabed's. Given that your boat can handle a 35Lb anchor my preference would be for a 35Lb Manson Supreme.
> When you are at anchor and the wind is howling you wont remember how much the anchor cost.


Yeah, that.

I have a 35# Delta and am quite content with it in the Chessy's muddy bottom. I've only had a a couple of times that required more than one attempt to get it to set and I've anchored through summer squalls that had me pulling on the anchor from every point of the compass.

That said, if I had to buy a new anchor I'd probably opt for a Ronca or MS, but I's still want one that was close to the same weight as my Delta.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Check the Practical Sailor December 2008 for a review of the Rocna and Supreme anchors, which "didn't live up the the marketing hype." That isn't to say they aren't good anchors, but they apparently didn't blow away the competition, either.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

As a guy that reads a lot of this stuff and am kind of the perfect customer (semi-informed and close to buying) - I think I'd go with the Manson Supreme purely based on price and performance across many different anchoring conditions.


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

Religion and Anchors!!!   

It's really a very confusing topic and if you do your homework, you will find that it really depends on where you are going to sail, the depth, swell and bottom type. Each anchor has it's edge and is easy to set and holds well when used in the correct environment.

Where I live you pretty much see Delta and Bruce anchors hanging on the front of boats and that may not be the case where you live. There's some practicality involved as Flukes are troublesome to mount and that would go for the Manson Supreme/Rocna also. Both great anchors, in the right conditions and if you can find somewhere to store them.

My take is that the Manson Supreme is a darn nice anchor and if I go on a lengthy cruise, I will have one on board with my Guardian and Bruce. That pretty much covers all the bases.

I think the biggest impact is to properly size the anchor and use enough chain to keep the angle correct. Just going up one size on my Guardian made the difference between a drag-o-matic and holding rock solid. Unfortunately the bigger one doesn't fit my locker so it's down below.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I'm with HeartsContent in that a goodly amount of chain and correcct sizing can make all the difference. ... when we dragged with the Rocna I had 3:1 max out and no snubber. Now .. had I made sure of a generous 3:1 and used the snubber I don't honestly think I'd be talking about the Rocna dragging. In those conditions we were pitching quite badly and my guess is that combined with inadequate scope and without the damping effect of the snubber we simply pulled the anchor up and out. 
The difference between that and the 27lb CQR in a blow incident is obvious. There we had good scope and snubber.

ps - Smack ... get a Manson. They are going to be so damn close to the Rocna as to make no real difference and they are cheaper.


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

I think any anchor that has a inside curved spade blade with a roll bar like the Rocna and Supreme anchor designs, will probably out perform other anchor designs where they have a bottom condition that lets them dig in...in a rocky bottom they might not be the best choice.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

I love the fact that anchor threads are the now the new gun threads.....

After weeks of reading I am thinking of just becoming a marina to marina kinda boat....anchors are doing my head in.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Wow,

Nothing get a cruiser's passion flowin' faster than an anchoring discussion. I believe that it's a hotter issue than solar or electrical connections... Unfortunately these passions frequently seem to quickly turn the discussion from discussions to manufacturer bashing.

I quickly perused the thread over at A-S, and it looks like another pig pile. We've had these here too (see the Opinions on Solar - aka SolarStik thread).

I have disagreed with Craig about anchoring. I read Beth Leanord's (sp?) Voyager's Handbook, and cited her recommendation for the tandem anchoring technique in a thread that Alex started. Craig popped up and said that it was reckless and wrong (or something to that effect).

I will also say that Craig Smith *participates *in these forums, Brian from Fortress does too. That counts for something in my book. Does anyone affiliated with Manson read, or post here, or anywhere? While I don't always agree with him, his presence here, and (biased) analysis, in addition to the analysis from others (Maine Sail, SailingDog and others) led me to purchase a Rocna last fall. It didn't hurt that at the time, the Rocna was _less _expensive than the Manson Supreme.

MY bottom line is that the Rocna and Manson Supreme are BOTH great anchors. My boat included a genuine Delta when I purchased her, and I gladly gave it away so that I would have room for a better anchor.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I wonder how many and what type anchors Captain Cook carried. Did his anchors ever drag or break. Funny after over 200 years of cruisng we still cannot agree on somthing simple.


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## johnnyboy2 (Feb 25, 2011)

Wow.

When I first posted this question, I hoped to get a few responses to help guilde me. Being new to this forum, I had no idea of the differeing opinions.

this is all very helpful. Right now, I am leaning to the manson supreme over the Delta. I just need to make sure it will fit in the bow roller and not hit the bow.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Just re-read all the comments. Have always enjoyed
Mainsail's posts but I guess we have a different 
definition of "obnoxious". I Thought I had a lot of time
on my hands. Rocna does say the lightweight Fisherman's
anchor is not to be used overnight or unattended.
"Shackle Rail" or "slot"?, creative wording?. Again, no affiliation
and not a Rocna owner.

Dabnis

Dabnis


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

dabnis said:


> Just re-read all the comments. Have always enjoyed
> Mainsail's posts but I guess we have a different
> definition of "obnoxious". I Thought I had a lot of time
> on my hands. Rocna does say the lightweight Fisherman's
> ...


If using a dead man's website to attack his life's work after his death does not fit your definition of obnoxious, then we do indeed have a different definition of the word.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Mast, I must have missed that one, guess l didn't take enough time
reading all of it. It appears that the focus of the OP's question
has drifted from the anchor to the person. Again, I have not
seen any complaints about Rocna's product or service?

Dabnis


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Dabnis,

I'm a great fan of MaineSail. Consider him one of the most important posters on SailNet. The quality of work is unsurpassed I reckon.

Nonetheless I think the "obnoxious" description of Craig is over the top. Yes, without doubt Craig is an utterly annoying oik who thoroughly deserves a tap on the shoulder but obnoxious is perhaps a tad strong. Then again maybe Kiwis and Wombats are not as sensitive as our USAian cousins. 

I read through the page that comes up when you go to the AncoraLatina site and as for "If using a dead man's website to attack his life's work after his death  does not fit your definition of obnoxious, then we do indeed have a different definition of the word" then I must have been reading a different page.

Anchors and religion ? I dare say me and Hartley18 could come to blows more readily over anchors than religion and let me tell you there is a pretty wide chasm between us when it comes the Yahweh and his minions. 

It is my firm belief that many of the posters currently taking Rocna and Craig apart (here, on A-S and in YBW) have more of an axe to grind than they are publicly stating. Rocna make an excellent product of that there is little doubt as is the fact that Craig is a PR nightmare but some of the nonsense being spouted borders on the ludicrous and even the most gentlemanly of the anchor makers , Brian from Fortress, has gotten somewhat carried away.

Manson and Rocna are both Kiwi businesses so of course they will be at each other's throats particularly given the Rocna claim that the Manson is a copy, a claim that to me seems to have some credence though admittedly both have their heritage in the Bugel/Buegel. One wonders whether or not Manson's whining is largely because Rocna have so consistently beaten them to the punch. 

(Yes I own a Rocna, bought and paid for. My connection with Rocna is purely that, indeed if I was choosing an anchor today I would probably go Manson based on price alone.)

ps - From my experience Rocan service is A1. As for product quality those things are an absolute mongrel to clean if a mud bottom. Mine had a small mark in the galvanising when first unpacked but six months later it is no worse. Rocna acknowledged the fault at the time. The Manson Supreme has the same cleaning problems as the Rocna in that the roll bar is hollow and open at each end. Personally I think this is something that should be addressed by them but we plugged up the holes and that seems to have solved the problem.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

tdw said:


> Dabnis,
> 
> I'm a great fan of MaineSail. Consider him one of the most important posters on SailNet. The quality of work is unsurpassed I reckon.
> 
> ...


"Manson's whining"???? I think you and I live in a different universe. As far as I can tell, all the whining is done by Craig "Anchorsmith." But he does enough of it for the entire industry, and then some.

Oh, and just in case it is necessary: the only ax I have to grind is that of a bystander who has endured for years the obnoxious (here, I said it again!) whining, cajoling and, as it turns out now, lieing by Craig. The only other connection I have with the anchor business is that I am a customer of Lewmar (I own a Delta and a Claw) and Fortress (own one of their fine products), as well as of some unnamed Chinese foundry that concocted my CQR clone.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> "Manson's whining"???? I think you and I live in a different universe. As far as I can tell, all the whining is done by Craig "Anchorsmith." But he does enough of it for the entire industry, and then some.
> 
> Oh, and just in case it is necessary: the only ax I have to grind is that of a bystander who has endured for years the obnoxious (here, I said it again!) whining, cajoling and, as it turns out now, lieing by Craig. The only other connection I have with the anchor business is that I am a customer of Lewmar (I own a Delta and a Claw) and Fortress (own one of their fine products), as well as of some unnamed Chinese foundry that concocted my CQR clone.


Separate Universes it is then. Have you read any of the YBW thread ? Even the truncated version over at A-S ?

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Craig is an annoying oik but simply criticising other product is not obnoxious. It may be tacky but obnoxious requires a bit more effort. Craig irritates me also but I don't feel the level of antipathy towards him that has come through other people's posts.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

tdw said:


> Separate Universes it is then. Have you read any of the YBW thread ? Even the truncated version over at A-S ?
> 
> I've said it before, I'll say it again, Craig is an annoying oik but simply criticising other product is not obnoxious. It may be tacky but obnoxious requires a bit more effort. Craig irritates me also but I don't feel the level of antipathy towards him that has come through other people's posts.


I have read parts of the YBW thread (before it was closed because someone, I believe nobody has said who, threatened legal action because of perceived libel) and the whole AS thread. And, of course, I have read many of Craig's postings over the last years.

But I think we can agree: what you call 'an annoying oik' who is 'tacky' and who 'irritates you', I call simply 'obnoxious'


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Define: Obnoxious



> ob·nox·ious
> [uhb-nok-shuhs]
> -adjective
> 1.
> ...


Now you are armed to make your own decision on whether or not _anyone_ meets the definition..


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

tdw said:


> Separate Universes it is then. Have you read any of the YBW thread ? Even the truncated version over at A-S ?
> 
> I've said it before, I'll say it again, Craig is an annoying oik but simply criticising other product is not obnoxious. It may be tacky but obnoxious requires a bit more effort. Craig irritates me also but I don't feel the level of antipathy towards him that has come through other people's posts.


He has done more then criticize other products, he also has personally attacked people how have a different opinion. Go to A-S and read the beginning of that thread. If it has not been moderated you will see where he called some members bigots for questioning the quality of the Chinese made anchors.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

I doubt that all of this is going to change anybody's mind
about anything. However, back to the original question,
it appears that Rocna is a pretty good product.

Dabnis


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> ... the only ax I have to grind is that of a bystander who has endured for years the obnoxious (here, I said it again!) whining, cajoling and, as it turns out now, lieing by Craig.


Can you help me understand the above, specifically the "endured for years" part. I'll give you months, but not years. According to your profile;


> Join Date: Nov 2010
> Posts: 26
> Rep Power: 0


Have you been a silent lurker for *years*?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tdw said:


> Separate Universes it is then. Have you read any of the YBW thread ? Even the truncated version over at A-S ?
> 
> I've said it before, I'll say it again, Craig is an annoying oik but simply criticising other product is not obnoxious. It may be tacky but obnoxious requires a bit more effort. Craig irritates me also but I don't feel the level of antipathy towards him that has come through other people's posts.


I'm with you TD. As it was with the boats that shan't be named, it's like hysterical sock-puppets pop up everywhere and cry like drama queens over the strangest things. I love trainwrecks - but jeez.

Craig sure has cruised to some incredible places judging by his pics and stories. That's pretty cool.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> Can you help me understand the above, specifically the "endured for years" part. I'll give you months, but not years. According to your profile;
> 
> Have you been a silent lurker for *years*?


Ehm, yes, I have. Many years. Do you have a problem with that?

And, it may not have escaped your attention that Craig did not limit his attention to sailnet but his mental uke could be found on pretty much any sailing forum in the world. I happen to frequent some of those even longer than sailnet.

Is that OK with you?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

denby said:


> ...he also has personally attacked people who have a different opinion.


[Gasp] No! Who on earth would do something like that?!?!? Heh-heh.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Funny how if you use the words annoying and obnoxious enough in a thread Smack turns up.......


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

chall03 said:


> Funny how if you use the words annoying and obnoxious enough in a thread Smack turns up.......


Not surprised.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> Funny how if you use the words annoying and obnoxious enough in a thread Smack turns up.......


Bear to honey, baby, bear to honey. Oh wait, do you guys have bears and honey in Oz?

Ahm...koala to eucalyptus? Platypus to prawns? I'm struggling here.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> Define: Obnoxious
> 
> 
> ob·nox·ious
> ...


crap - that petard is mine do you hear ? hoist away. 

OK so he's obnoxious but even so these threads are way over the top. Its a trucking anchor ffs. Sure we need 'em but good god almighty can we try and keep things in perspective.

Not as if Craig and his girlfriend are trying to sail around for 1000 days in a plasticised cement schooner ..


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Only sailors can have world wars over pointy chunks of metal, what to do with the end bits of your wire/connectors, how many milliamps you ACTUALLY get out of a fixed solar panel in Holland, and how fun it really might be to have two pit bulls puking on your settee cushions.

To quote one of my favorite philosophers:



tdw said:


> *ffs*


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

So this Craig fella is annoying. Who the heck cares? Hitler thought up the Volkswagon...a great little car in its day, but he sure annoyed a lot of people. 

I'll judge a product on its merits. As long as the CEO isn't a murderer, a pedophile, or a recipient of Obama bailouts, I'll be glad to do business with them.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Only sailors can have world wars over pointy chunks of metal, what to do with the end bits of your wire/connectors, how many milliamps you ACTUALLY get out of a fixed solar panel in Holland, and how fun it really might be to have two pit bulls puking on your settee cushions.
> 
> To quote one of my favorite philosophers:





tdw said:


> ffs


He does have a succinct way of summazing a situation the old chap. The funny thing is though that like most great philosophers half of what he said goes straight over the top of most peoples heads. I reckon half of AS and SN are still trying to figure out whether being an oik is a good or bad thing 

Prawn to Platypus???? Dude. We have quite nice native honey bees down here actually Smack, cute little critters that don't make bad honey either.


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

Bizzare, mention Rocna and you get the same groupies w the same speel. The same people who dominate the AS post re Manson vs Rocna make it an obvious personality attack and are doing it here too. [does someone have an agenda?]
Let just keep it on subject and compare the products. Manson or Delta...Here I'd go with Manson [but prefer Rocna...Love my Rocna. I have not slipped an inch since switching from a bigger CQR]

Here is a lovely picture of a 'used' Manson....


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

*Who mentioned Craig?*

Bizzare, mention Rocna and you get the same groupies w the same speel. The same people who dominate the AS post re Manson vs Rocna make it an obvious personality attack and are doing it here too. [does someone have an agenda?]
Let just keep it on subject and compare the products. Manson or Delta...Here I'd go with Manson [but prefer Rocna...Love my Rocna. I have not slipped an inch since switching from a bigger CQR]

Here is a lovely picture of a 'used' Manson....


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Joesaila said:


> Bizzare, mention Rocna and you get the same groupies w the same speel. The same people who dominate the AS post re Manson vs Rocna make it an obvious personality attack and are doing it here too. [does someone have an agenda?]
> Let just keep it on subject and compare the products. Manson or Delta...Here I'd go with Manson [but prefer Rocna...Love my Rocna. I have not slipped an inch since switching from a bigger CQR]
> 
> Here is a lovely picture of a 'used' Manson....


OK let's be fair....

Photo courtesy: http://s1.postimage.org/5pru65w27/bentrocna.jpg










We should also note that after 6+ years of incessant bashing of the Manson Supreme by Craig, Manson finally offered this challenge to Craig & Rocna, which they ran away from and refused to address. As a Rocna owner Craig/Rocna owe it to us to finally once and for all "show us the money".

*The Manson Challenge To Rocna

"If you would please bring down your anchor, we can test it on our calibrated and certified test jig. We have tested it against ours. We have videoed those tests. However in the interests of posting something that you will not say is made up, I welcome you to come here and we will video your face as we do the tests so the readers can see what eating your words after years of misinformation looks like.

Any time you would like to test your anchor we are here. Any time."*

If you are going to make false accusations against a product in literally hundreds and hundreds of posts you had darn well better be ready to put your money where your mouth is when the time comes...

Oh, and I am a Rocna owner but one who now no longer believes it is the "better built" product as I was mislead to believe, until Craig & Rocna are willing to own their "claims" and go through with this head to head testing to finally PROVE IT..

Let's not misconstrue my feelings of my Rocna I love my anchor but really dislike the misinformation & lies that have been put forth by Rocna.

*What would I like to see in a future Rocna:*

1- Stop with the misinformation and "extrapolated" data from the Sail Magazine test.

2- Promote their own product based on it's benefits and not through bashing and lies about other manufacturers.

3- Stop claiming you have industry certifications such as RINA until you actually have them. (Steve Bambury has already made changes to the web site on this front and this is a step in the right direction.)

4- Pricing commensurate with the country of origin. If Rocna won't take Manson up on the "Manson Challenge" then any claim of "superiority" is flatly questionable and thus there can be no price "premium". For a product constructed in China where we all know what they pay those folks for labor, the question of pricing is certainly a hot button. The Manson is still built in NZ and the cost of labor is significantly higher yet the product still sells for less. The raw FACT for me is that my Manson Supreme has perfromed IDENTICALLY to my Rocna at 100% in all aspects thus far, setting, resetting and holding. If the Rocna is not better built, if it was they would certainly take Manson up on the challenge, that means I have suggested to many folks that they waste their good hard earned money on a Rocna needlessly. I feel badly about this! My suggestion of the Rocna being the slightly "better built" product was incorrectly based on FALSE accusations and MISINFORMATION stated as fact by Craig Smith. I don't like to give out bad information and Craig has stuck it up my arse on this one, so yes I do have some "issues" with Craig's tactics.

Craig HAS brought and presented some excellent information over the years when he sticks to the subject and does not turn it into a sales pitch or begin bashing owners of "old gen" anchors or other manufacturers. I for one would welcome Craig back IF he could be polite and discuss his product based on it's merits without falsifying data, creating certifications they don't yet have, re-directing a dead mans site and then bashing the deceased mans product etc. etc...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

[Edited due to offensive facial expressions.]


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Offensive facial expressions.......my mind boggles.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I obviously in my little time spent at AS, not that I can say little time here, still have not seen Craig, other than C2 whom is now more at SA than here......BUT< I do not think that is the Craig we are disCUSSing?!?!?!?

now where was I..........


ooops, I see there is a Craig Smith viewing this thread...........hmmmmmmm............lord help us?!?!?!?!?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

tdw said:


> crap - that petard is mine do you hear ? hoist away.
> 
> OK so he's obnoxious but even so these threads are way over the top. Its a trucking anchor ffs. Sure we need 'em but good god almighty can we try and keep things in perspective.
> 
> Not as if Craig and his girlfriend are trying to sail around for 1000 days in a plasticised cement schooner ..


Tis quite entertaining though, I love the serious forum drama! Very angsty stuff... 

Btw, after carefully reading these anchor threads, I have decided to go with a 150# mushroom as my main ground tackle. Ought to look quite snazzy hanging off the bow as well.. I _have_ to be different..


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> Tis quite entertaining though, I love the serious forum drama! Very angsty stuff...
> 
> Btw, after carefully reading these anchor threads, I have decided to go with a 150# mushroom as my main ground tackle. Ought to look quite snazzy hanging off the bow as well.. I _have_ to be different..


Chris,
Good to see you have a good anchor. This guy had no engine and anchor did not hold him off the shore: http://www.sailnet.com/photogallery/showphoto.php/photo/1066/cat/2/limit/views


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