# A few legitimate sailboat questions...



## Effit (Apr 10, 2015)

Hi all, 

First off let me say what an awesome resource this website is. I hope someday to be able to ask fewer questions and provide more answers!

In the meantime... I've got a few questions.

Background- my wife and I bought a 1985 Hunter 34 in April of this year, moved aboard in May, played around the twin cities for the summer season, motored over 1700 miles down the Mississippi river, and are currently having a blast getting more experience with trips on lake Ponchartrain and beyond under sail. 

My first question has to do with the jib sheets on the roller furling headsail. When trying to trim the genoa with the two speed self tailing winches it seems to take an excessive amount of force. As in, it feels like you need to be Hercules to trim the sail. Normal procedure for us is to take two wraps around the winch and then seat the line into the self tailing groove. It seems to help to only take one turn around the winch (I'm not sure if that is generally acceptable or not). It also seems to help to not use the self tailing action of the winch (defeats the purpose). The lines are at least 1/2" maybe even 5/8" and probably nearing the end of useful life. Is it possible the line is oversized creating problems? Is there a different technique we could try? How big of a difference would new lines make? 

Question two has to do with downwind sailing. Our boat seems very fast upwind all the way down to a beam reach but gets slower as we start to head downwind. The H34 has a decent sweep to the spreaders so that limits how much we can ease the main sheet (barely knew what that meant back in May!). We've tried wing and wing dead downwind (with a preventer rigged) with limited success. On a broad reach neither of the sails seem to fill fully to give us any sort of speed. Do we need an additional sail? Would it make sense to use main only or Genoa only? Are we missing something obvious? Is this particular to Hunter boats?

Thanks!!


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Hi Effit. you should be putting 3 to 4 wraps on the winch drum so the drum can do the work for you. you know that the winch has two speed ranges because the handle winds it in going either direction. one way is high speed and the other low speed. if you only use one wrap and then the self tailer you are letting the line slip on the drum and only using the tailer to pull the line in. using the tailer only when under high load will put a lot of load on the stripper arm which causes very high friction and add a lot of load on the handle. 
the 34 is not a speedy boat down wind but may be best sailed on a broad reach and jibed down wind in a zig zag course as you do going up wind. in light air keeping the sails full is the most important. as the wind builds your course can be sailed deeper down wind as the apparent wind changes. I would suggest you get a dingy sailing book and learn a little more about apparent wind and how to use it. 
Good Sailing


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

What size are your winches??? Would expect a Lewmar 44 or equivalent would be about right for your boat. Had 40 equivalents on our 35' boat and switched to next size up and it made winching in the jib way more pleasant.

You should have at least 3 turns and preferably 4 on a winch when you are cranking it. Like to have two turns when rapid tailing by hand. Two turns gives enough grip on the winch so you can easily add extra turns when the line comes under tension. The number of turns shouldn't have an effect on the force required to crank a winch, just to keep line from slipping. 

Personally like 7/16" line for a boat our size for a combination of ease on the hands and bulk. 3/8" is plenty strong but too hard on my hands to grip. 1/2" has a nice 'Hand' but it too bulky and takes up too much space.

You should get best speed on a reach. The propulsive force from the sails is actually suction created by windspeed differential between the front and back surface. The interaction between the foresail and the main in the slot between the two accentuates this pressure/speed differential and driving force of the sails. This is the case for all points of sail except DDW. There it's primarily the wind pushing the sails. DDW, sail area is the primary speed determinant which is where big square foot spinnakers really shine. So yes, bigger sails may help but primarily when sailing well off the wind. Sailing just under main or jib is almost always slower than having both sails set. You didn't mention the size of your headsail which I assume is roller furling. If it is too small for average conditions your speed will suffer. If the genoa is too large, it will not reef down well under strong wind conditions. For most boats in general conditions, a 135% is an optimal size. If you are sailing in SF Bay's blustery conditions, a 110-120% would be a better choice. Sailing in light air Long Island Sound a 150% might be your choice. In any case, a lightweight asymmetric spinnaker or code zero would be a good additional sail for light air and/or reaching conditions.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

roverhi said:


> The number of turns shouldn't have an effect on the force required to crank a winch, just to keep line from slipping.


if this was the case then explain why does a winch need a drum and not only the self tailer
the number of turns has a big effect on the force required that is why you need a drum with 4 turns of the line on it.


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

The number of turns around the drum will not change mechanical advantage . . . Just add friction to avoid slippage . . The rest is gear ratios and handle length . . .


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Hey, congrats on the new to you boat! First, 1/2" and 5/8" lines are much more different in size than the eighth inch implies. 5/8" would be unusually large for a 34ft boat, possibly even too large for the self-tailer on your winch. What kind of jib tracks and blocks do you have? Are they adjustable? Could be set at a bad angle?

Our boat sails faster upwind and on beam than downwind, as well. Not uncommon at all. Of course, apparent wind drops off and the boat isn't as stable, so it feels slower, even when it isn't. That may be subjective. 

My suggestion is to drop the main completely, the next time you are on a deep broad reach and work on jib/genoa sailshape alone first. Your main could be blocking your foresail, so when you start putting it back in, try reefing it, even in light winds. If you're flying a large genoa downwind, in light winds, you might have to reef a bit in (counter-intuitive) because it's too heavy to fill in the light air. Too large (read too heavy) a jib sheet is also bad for downwind, as it weighs down the clew. These are why whisker poles are often used, but don't rush out for one yet. Try flying just the foresail and see how you do. 

Good luck and have fun tuning into the nuances of your new boat. They all have their own.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Your winches are too small. 


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

On a Hunter 34 dead down wind doesn't work well with the B&R rig . What I do is sail a very broad reach & jibe to correct course when needed. If I can't because of channel restrictions or other reasons, These are the sail combinations I use ; light wind head sail pole out on whisker pole main on opposite side resting on the spreaders leach line tight preventer holding the boom (only light winds)Depending on exact point of sail some times you can only use the head sail and can't get the main out far enough. In stronger wind I will center the main to help reduce roll & chafe with the head sail polled out. A lot of times it feels like you aren't moving because you don't feel the wind but these boats do move well in light wind and the gps will say 4 knots or better . 
Just tried an asymmetrical spinnaker this last year with mixed results (still need to figure out what way it works well with this boat)
st 40 winches 3 wraps works for me (clean & lube winches)


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Size of lines – Always use the recommended size of lines. Oversized lines don’t run freely through the blocks, create friction, are stronger than necessary, are too heavy, and cost a lot more. I have 7/16” jib sheets and mainsheet on my 35’ boat. If the line is hard on your hands, wear gloves. Gloves are absolutely essential safety gear, especially on a bigger boat. A line suddenly pulled through your hand by a gybe can send you to the emergency room.

Use of winches – The harder the wind is blowing, the more you need to use the mechanical advantage that is provided by your winches. In extremely light air, I’ll use one or two wraps on the winch and no winch handle. In moderate winds, I’ll use 2 wraps. As the wind strength increases, I’ll increase the number of wraps. I have used up to 5 wraps. I usually only put 2 wraps on the winch before a tack, and then add more wraps as needed after the tack is complete. More than 2 wraps before a tack creates an increased risk of the line overriding itself. I generally put the winch handle in the winch before a tack. Use the high speed, low powered gear until it gets hard to turn the crank, and then switch to the high power, low speed gear. 

Wing and wing – In a deep broad reach, the jib is blanketed by the mainsail. If you’re broad reaching, and the jib collapses, steer up a bit, until the jib starts to fill. If you want to sail dead downwind, or nearly so, the only way to do that efficiently (with jib and main) is wing and wing. The easiest way to do it is by setting a whisker or spinnaker pole, to hold the jib out and keep it from collapsing. In all but the lightest of winds, you can sail wing and wing without a whisker pole, but it takes good sail trimming and constant focus by the helmsman, to avoid a gybe. If the jib alternately fills and collapses, try trimming it in more. The reason why it collapses is usually because the excess wind filling the jib is overflowing the leech of the sail. If you trim it in a little more, it won’t spill over the leech of the sail.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Quite simply, when you are going to windward, the boat's forward speed increases the apparent wind speed on the sails. Going down wind does exactly the opposite, your boat speed decreases the apparent wind, so you must sail slower. Fact of sailing, so don't stress about it. As mentioned, you can tack down wind just as you do going to windward and keep the boat going faster and more comfortable and this also keeps the sails off your shrouds.


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

You may have to rebuild your winches, They can feel fine with no load BUT as soon as you load them they WILL bog down making it VERY hard to crank in a sail.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Before going to the expense of new winches get the LONGEST winch handle you can find. Harken do a 12 inch.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

A couple of things...

1) 3-4 wraps on the drum is required to provide enough friction to take the load off the tail. There is no gain in having fewer. 

2) your sheets are too big. Find the specs for your winch and don't go any larger than their maximum size. I prefer to go down at least one step however. 

3) if you need more purchase on the winches then first get longer winch handles, next consider larger winches. Production builders use the smallest (and cheapest) winches they can get away with even if larger ones are really to be prefered. 

4) with a B&R rig dead down wind is rarely going to be fast. Try sailing at 165 degrees apparent and see what happens to vmg. Your best downwind speeds are going to be in this range.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

One thing not mentioned so far regarding excess difficulty grinding in a genoa is coordination between the tailer and the helmsman. Many/most people tack the boat too quickly and turn the boat too far, making it hard to get the sail across in a timely manner and then overloading the loose sail such that it's a big job to crank it in.

Our technique is two wraps (and not in the self tailing jaws), turn the boat fairly fast to start, but slow things down as the sail goes across. Fast work tailing by hand with two wraps before the sail fills gets a lot of the work done. Avoid turning all the way onto your new heading until the sail is mostly in, you'll be winching against a partially luffing sail for a few seconds, but it goes faster.. then add two wraps, into the jaws, bear off and do the final trim. If just the two of you, figure out who gets the most sheet tailed the fastest.. let the other person drive the tack. 

Depending on the geometry of the cockpit, the helmsman might be able to do the initial hand tailing and in that case is best able to coordinate the turn rate. This is what we do most of the time.. I tail and drive through the tack, getting 80% of the sheet through, my wife meanwhile gets the handle in, then adds the wraps and finishes up while I hold the nose up a bit til she's done.. usually only 3 or 4 turns in the low speed gear.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

socal may have a point. Before you do anything drastic, make sure your winches have been cleaned and regreased. Agree with others that a minimum of 3 wraps is "best practice" to avoid unnecessary slippage. 

The point others have been making about downwind sailing is on the mark. Your sails are airfoils--like an aircraft wing--and are most effective when air is flowing along the leeward side and then you need to trim to get them to "pull" effectively. That isn't going to happen DDW.

If it is any consolation, sailing my boat dead downwind isn't much fun, either. As Minne points out, you might rely more on your genoa and either reef or douse your main and see what happens.


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## sandy stone (Jan 14, 2014)

Where do you live on Lake P? I'm in Slidell, if you're on the northshore maybe I could drop by and look at things?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Somethings from racing do translate to cruising and place less wear on your sails and gear,

Tacking- have car for next tack placed correctly. Tighten lazy sheet so clew just moves a fraction with one or two wraps on the drum. Tack. But don't throw off loaded sheet completely. Leave a wrap or two on it and ease it to have it back wind bringing bow around. Then throw it off. While tack is occurring tighten new working sheet. Even on my 46' boat this can be done with one or two wraps on the drum and by hand. Now throw an additional two or three wraps on the drum and put line in to self tailer. Now put handle in winch. Tighten further with handle ( or push button) if necessary.

With this technique the sail does not flog at all. Boat is powered up. With practice you should be able to do working sheet with one hand and lazy sheet with the other. I use autotack function on the AP and do it myself without difficulty. Practice throwing the line around the drum with one hand a few times to get it. Practice your timing. If done correctly you may need no turns of the drum or only one or two.

gybing- put new car in the correct position. Set up new winch with three or four wraps. Have old working sheet out of self tailor. Slowly gybe. As gybe is occurring slowly ease old working sheet and tightening new one. Once again using autotack on AP ( set it to slowest speed) I can do this myself. In low wind speeds with both sheets out of self tailors by hand. In higher wind speeds with new working sheet in self tailor pushing the button or grinding. 

Once again no flogging. No fuss or bother. I do need another crew to handle the main. In light air will center the main before the gybe and re adjust afterwards. In higher wind speeds may gybe the main then the jib which is sloppy but safer. In very light air if I have crew will have crew grab a sheet near the clew and have them walk the jib around.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Realized I misspoke above.
Often easier to use light brake on wheel and not AP when gybing. Just tweak wheel over bit by bit.
Often better in light air to bear off a bit when completing tack. Then head up to new course as it powers up. That means you will grind a wee bit.
Still the principle is to flog the sail as little as possible and to do as little as possible winch work.

As a aside was told the waterproof grease used for trailer axles is just fine for winches and at nominal cost. Find dropping winch bits into coffee can filled with diesel works best for cleaning them and with less smell than kerosene.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

outbound said:


> Realized I misspoke above.
> 
> Often easier to use light brake on wheel and not AP when gybing. Just tweak wheel over bit by bit.
> 
> ...


I used that grease for winches and found it a bit stiff so I had my own recipe where I thinned it with a bit of synthetic motor oil and it was perfect.

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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Mineral spirits for cleaning winch parts.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> Mineral spirits for cleaning winch parts.


I always used gasoline. Cheaper.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Pretty sure that mineral spirits are substantially less toxic than gasoline. I always have a bottle aboard anyway. Love that I can find it in plastic containers now. Rusting metal containers always freak me out.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Bleemus said:


> I always used gasoline. Cheaper.


The gasoline is cheap. The burn ward, not so much.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

True. 15 years of servicing winches with gas in a plastic bucket without incident though. I took my cigarette breaks on the dock. 


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Bleemus said:


> I always used gasoline. Cheaper.





Siamese said:


> The gasoline is cheap. The burn ward, not so much.





Bleemus said:


> True. 15 years of servicing winches with gas in a plastic bucket without incident though. I took my cigarette breaks on the dock.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Count yourself lucky!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Always have had a strong aversion to jerry cans lashed on deck but keep two very small ones on the boat. One filled with gas for the dinghy. One with diesel to top off the Racors if they need service. 
Cycle the gas into the dinghy gas tank so it doesn't get old. Cycle the diesel by using it to clean. No extra flammables on the boat.


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## Effit (Apr 10, 2015)

sandy stone said:


> Where do you live on Lake P? I'm in Slidell, if you're on the northshore maybe I could drop by and look at things?


Hi there, we are at Sea Brook in the industrial canal. Maybe we can sail over and meet up one of these days! We are always happy to take someone with and get another set of eyes on!


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## Effit (Apr 10, 2015)

Thanks for all the great suggestions guys. I admit we haven't used more than two turns on the winches, but all the same are constantly getting over ride on the lines. We will definitely try a few extra turns the next chance we get. 

There are so many techniques just in this thread and I can't wait to put them into practice and see what happens.

Re rebuilding the winches, it seems straight forward, but which lubricant to use and do you use the same type for both the pawls and the bearing races?

Thanks! I've said it before, but what a great site and wealth of information.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Effit said:


> Thanks for all the great suggestions guys. I admit we haven't used more than two turns on the winches, but all the same are constantly getting over ride on the lines. We will definitely try a few extra turns the next chance we get.
> 
> There are so many techniques just in this thread and I can't wait to put them into practice and see what happens.
> 
> ...


Winch grease for the gears. Can find it at most any marine place and a light oil for the pawls. i use 3 in 1 oil, others use different stuff.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Effit said:


> Thanks for all the great suggestions guys. I admit we haven't used more than two turns on the winches, but all the same are constantly getting over ride on the lines.


If you're consistently getting overrides more turns won't help. Most likely the approach/lead angle of the sheet to the winch is too flat.



Here you see the sheet approach the winch (from the left) at a reasonable angle, 5 or so degrees below horizontal. Any flatter and the coils will ride up over each other. This can happen especially with boats with strong sheerlines and the car forward with smaller headsails.

Our solution, to keep the lead uniformly low regardless of sail used is to divert the sheet to the rail and then up to the winch. It also avoids the sheet chafing the coaming on the port side (where it must lead to the inside of the winch drum). You can see the lead block below.. just beyond the kayak.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Effit said:


> ..... do you use the same type for both the pawls and the bearing races?.....


Actually, you have to be sure you get zero grease on the pawls, or they might hang up. Everything else gets a light coat of grease, which I like to apply with a chip brush. More is not better. You can buy the proper grease and oil at just about any marine store.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

I used to mix heavy 90w grease with motor oil till it was nice and thin. Everything inside the drum got a thin coat of it including the pawls and never had one stick. We did service them every five or six months on the cruising boats and before every race on the race boats. 


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## Mark1948 (Jun 19, 2007)

Hunter is best sailed a little off dead down wind. Whisker pole is helpful. I don't have a spinaker on my 34 so I just do the best I can with a 130 and main.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Mark1948 said:


> Hunter is best sailed a little off dead down wind. Whisker pole is helpful. I don't have a spinaker on my 34 so I just do the best I can with a 130 and main.


I suspect most sailboats don't do so well dead downwind under main and Genoa. Some folks tack when going dead downwind for that reason.


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