# [Mystery] Middle-aged diesel seeks same



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I may have mentioned in passing my fat arsed steel cutter and plans to point it in a watery direction.

In aid of these plans, I'm taking my late 1980s Westerbeke W-52 out for inspection and potential rebuild. It's only got 1300 hours on it, but as I could put on 1,000 hrs./year for five years, it's reasonable to "refresh it" as much as possible.

Trouble is that the Internet was but a baby when this engine was popular, and there's a dearth of information on it. Luckily, I have a parts lists, a superseded parts list, and a very nice shop manual. I am having work done this winter at a general diesel (not marine) place that does trucks and train diesels. I estimate maybe 10 hours of work by a decent rebuilder are required.

Here's the rub: I have found that this Westerbeke is a Mazda diesel used in B2000 and B2200 pickups from the early '80s. I have also learned that Mazda built diesels for Perkins to Perkins specs in Japan. I believe my Westerbeke is essentially the Mazda S2 or perhaps R2 engine (134.8 cu. in is the same as 2200 cc displacement.) I also think this engine is the same block as the Perkins 4.135 (first pic), and therefore the Westerbeke W-52. (second pic). The W-52 spec sheet is the last picture.




























So, my point is this: Westerbeke charges an arm, a leg and a testicle for parts. Might I not do better via Mazda or even Perkins, if I can prove that the Westerbeke is the marinized (aka add pumps and zincs) version of the Mazda S2 diesel for pickups, which is _also _the Perkins 4.135, of which I bet more were made than the Westerbeke...

EDIT: If I'm right that the Westie/Mazda/Perkins are the same block, then it was also used in early '80s Ford Rangers. The cylinder bore on the W-52 is 3.50" x 3.51"

Your advice or insights are valued.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Where is that thread that had the list of engines and their automotive counterparts....one moment please....

This is the list that Capnhand gave me for Universal. He seems to be the man with the answers you need.
Check the "we're getting hosed" thread for more info.

Edit:
Ah man! You were on that thread! And here I thought I was giving you a nugget. Sorry V.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

That thread kinda petered out. If I contact a Westerbeke distributor, he'll try to sell me a $500 gasket set and gold-plated bearings. If I can logically source non-marine parts, I'm not going to sneer at putting "pickup" parts in a marine diesel. I will rather be incented to buy more spares before they disappear from the historical record.

But thanks for the thought! I know quite a few guys here own Westerbekes and Perkins, and Mazda made blocks for more than one model they rebranded for marine use.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Did you see this? Looks like you are headed in the right direction.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Val

if you can ascertain that the blocks are indeed the same, then I'd say that there would be no problem whatsoever using the non marine sources for engine parts, seals, etc.

With Pathfinder vs VW, any of the parts added/changed in the marinization of the Rabbit diesel are generally not available from VW anyway. But we rebuilt ours with all VW or jobber parts obtained through a local VW mechanic - at a fraction of the cost of a similar job on a Yanmar or Volvo. This is, I think, the essential advantage of avoiding those two specialty marine brands.

Pathfinder added a deeper oil pan, for instance, but the gasket is a standard VW part still. They also upgraded the starter to something more robust, but it's still a VW part, just from a different engine.

From your pictures the engines certainly look similar, getting the specs on internals is going to be the trick.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Yes, BF...Wikipedia was my friend here. It's frequently wrong or incomplete, but in some cases the articles on the most arcane stuff (i.e. Mazda diesels from the '70s and '80s) trumps Google.

Faster, I have all the Westerbeke specs in the shop manual, which is excellent. If I can establish the blocks are the same, that's 90% of the effort. I don't object to buying Westerbeke stuff like the heat exchanger or wiring harnesses, but having rebuilt an Atomic 4, I know there are usually alternatives and that one basic engine design at a rated output is frequently rebadged in a different context.

If anyone knows of a Sherwood F-85 raw water pump that isn't $485, though, I'd love to hear about it. My plan is to take off much of the current parts like the fuel lift pump, the water pump, the starter and the heat exchanger (all which work but all of which are nearly 20 years old), and to tag 'em, bag 'em and put them in a nice dry spot as drop in spares. I had a spare coil, distributor, plugs, raw water pump and carb for my Atomic 4, and a couple of those items were very handy indeed as "drop ins" when on passage.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

I love reading about folks outsmarting the pirates at westerbeke. And mazda makes some damn fine engines which means your ahead further; you could have ended up with something like a westerbeke 33 with the mitsubishi block. Some of the worst engines made.

But if the engine has only that many hours, I really think you are wasting your money with a rebuild; it's hardly broken in. Source the parts sure, keep some spares, even replace a few seals, rocker cover gasket and so forth, but I'll bet if you pull the head you won't find any wear.

This is what I found in my Leyland 1.3 Litre, aka westerbeke 30 when I replaced a leaky head gasket. It had somewhere around 2000 hrs:









Notice there is no visible cylinder wear and no ridge, and the crosshatching from the factory is clearly visible. This engine is a long way from needing a rebuild.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Val
for just about everything pumps, try these guys...http://www.depcopump.com/


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Valiente,

I don't have a Westerbeke, but this thread interests me nonetheless. I like the sleuthing, and I share Hoffa's pleasure in reading about someone circumventing the parts pirates.

One aspect of your plan that has me pondering:



Valiente said:


> My plan is to take off much of the current parts like the fuel lift pump, the water pump, the starter and the heat exchanger (all which work but all of which are nearly 20 years old), and to tag 'em, bag 'em and put them in a nice dry spot as drop in spares. I had a spare coil, distributor, plugs, raw water pump and carb for my Atomic 4, and a couple of those items were very handy indeed as "drop ins" when on passage.


I wonder if this is the right approach? Might it not make more sense to carefully inspect (replace gaskets etc as necessary, perhaps re-build) and then re-install the functioning parts and keep the new ones as spares? I'm just trying to project into the future along the course of your voyage -- remote locations, availability of parts, difficulty of making repairs, etc. I think under those circumstances I would want to be certain of the quality of the component I was going to all the effort to replace and re-install.

Yes, by installing the new part now during the "re-build", you will probably reduce the likelihood of that part failing along the way. But if it does fail, you will be sticking a used part in to replace it, and then you'll feel the need to get another spare asap.

There is a similar thinking with emergency flares. Some say keep your old expired ones as back-ups in case you run out of new ones. Others say use your old expired ones first and save the new ones for back-ups. That way you know your back-ups will be good if the old ones let you down.

Just another perspective, and I'm not claiming it's the superior approach. If it were me and I could afford to do so, I would probably replace the most likely components to fail with new components during the rebuild, AND buy a second new set of spares (especially if you can find a less expensive source) or a rebuild kit. Good luck!


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## gc1111 (May 13, 2004)

I remember someone warning me about wholesale usage of automotive parts on a marine engine. The problem is that some of them are different for a reason. The only thing I remember is more relevant for gas engines. The fuel pumps are different to avoid significant fuel spills in case of diaphram failure (the most common failure mode). Basic engine block stuff (gaskets etc.) should be okay, but check out other parts carefully.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, some parts are interchangeable, but others you should spend the money on the marine grade parts. For instance, marine grade fuel hose is fire resistant, which is not a requirement for automotive grade fuel hose. That's a pretty significant difference IMHO.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

The mechanics will be the same, I am sure.

If you think Westerbeke are bad for spare part prices, I promise you that you have not encountered Volvo yet. Avoid, yes, avoid.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

HoffaLives said:


> I love reading about folks outsmarting the pirates at westerbeke. And mazda makes some damn fine engines which means your ahead further; you could have ended up with something like a westerbeke 33 with the mitsubishi block. Some of the worst engines made.
> 
> But if the engine has only that many hours, I really think you are wasting your money with a rebuild; it's hardly broken in. Source the parts sure, keep some spares, even replace a few seals, rocker cover gasket and so forth, but I'll bet if you pull the head you won't find any wear.


All the comments I've read for this particular Mazda block as used in pickups run along the lines of "tough as nails", "very dependable", "strongly built", etc. At nearly 650 lbs., there's a good mass to horsepower ration there, which I find appropriate for what is essentially a motorsailer.

As for the hours, the situation is that the boat was launched in 1988, so the engine is an '86 or an '87. At best, it's been running for 19 years, but only for 1,300 hours. I've put 200 of those hours on since July of 2006. The upside is that it's all been fresh water going through the raw water circuit...the boat has never seen salt. The downside is that the pattern of usage is typically Great Lakes...putt-putt in and out of harbour, with few long, block-warming runs of several hours to clean out the passages, and with six months of no activity in a cold boat every winter. The valve springs look a little corroded to me, for instance, probably due to the fact that the engine has been run for short periods in cold weather, and the engine bay air hasn't warmed up enough to prevent condensation when the engine is switched off. That's typical here, and is in part why diesels aren't always the best choice for daysailing types of boating.

So I may have wear associated with low use, or I may be fine. A tear down will confirm this one way or the other, and if I need to rebuild, I will, and I may just sink all the "lightly worn" crankshaft parts into an oil tank for future use. We'll see what the mechanic says. Essentially, I need diagnosis more than doctoring, as the engine runs fine. I want to make sure to the best of my ability that it will continue to do so when subjected to a far more strenous and regular workload associated with long-term cruising.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

xort said:


> Val
> for just about everything pumps, try these guys...http://www.depcopump.com/


Thanks. I'll e-mail them for prices. It's a pretty common pump and the impellers are common, too...it's just really expensive via Westerbeke.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> Might it not make more sense to carefully inspect (replace gaskets etc as necessary, perhaps re-build) and then re-install the functioning parts and keep the new ones as spares?


If I were staying in fresh water, yes, I agree. My logic is this: A rebuild (or just a regasketing, adjustment, timing belt, ring replacement, etc.), is like getting a new engine in many ways, particularly as the integrity of the block itself is not in question. So I would like to roll the clock back to zero in all respects. It's like getting new rims and putting back the not-quite-bald tires on...a half-measure. If the heat exchanger were to fail, it would likely be in the heavier movement of the sea, with salt water going through it. This might be due to undetected thin spots, or work fatigue or just slow corrosion over 20 years. If I have brand-new or rebuilt stuff on there, like the alt, the starter, certain wire runs, etc., I will have "bolt-on" spares of some presumed integrity that can get me to the next mail drop. It's failures while on passage I want to avoid...if something is balky but functional, I can creep into the next anchorage and do a half-hour rachet wrench session. If the old item failed when I was in calm and a four knot tidal rip, I would feel like a fool for not changing the item out when I had the engine itself out. New stuff is also under warranty.

That's the theory going forward, anyway. If I have the opportunity to buy stuff in bulk (filters, impellers, belts, hose clamps, etc.), naturally, I will. Some of the hoses are custom bent, for instance, currently. I'll label those and keep them, but will upgrade to more fire-resistant materials.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Yes, some parts are interchangeable, but others you should spend the money on the marine grade parts. For instance, marine grade fuel hose is fire resistant, which is not a requirement for automotive grade fuel hose. That's a pretty significant difference IMHO.


See above. I always go for the most bulletproof replacement I can find, and the hoses will be no exception. I am redoing the boat plumbing at the same time, and will be finally connecting the hot water tank to the heat exchanger, and will want to create a freshwater flush T-fitting for the raw water circuit, because I'll be in salt for the first time when we go.

The "auto" stuff I'm talking about is strictly drive train-related, gaskets, washers, spacers, etc. The "accessory" bits will be replaced as needed with the same marine grade parts. You'd love my Perko strainer...it's the size of a French press...


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Val...

I definitely would not disturb the motor unless it is showing signs of distress. Is the motor starting ok? Is it using oil? Is there enough power?

Plenty of these older motors are broken by the act of dismantling them.

Whatever you do, do not split that motor in order to find out there was nothing wrong with it in the first place, or, worse, that the cost of gaskets and fiddly bits (typ Volvo) puts it beyond economical rebuild. Or, almost as bad, the re-assembled motor either leaks oil like a sieve or has a worse problem that was not there in the first place.

Put a compression meter on it, for a start.

If it's ok, leave it... those are not long hours.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

I split an exhaust manifold on a Volvo MD17C back in 1997, attempting to remove it. 
The motor was 20 years old, then.
Volvo wanted £1300 for a replacement manifold... then about $2100.

Oh man, I learned very quickly to leave an old motor alone, particularly a Volvo, indeed to leave all Volvos in the catalogue, permanently.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

The thing to remember about engines - especially good japanese ones - is they really don't break, not in the way that you are thinking. While they can be abused and so wear faster than they should, the quality control is such that it is very, very rare to say throw a rod or drop a valve. If you rebuild now, you will be replacing essential new parts with new parts, and who's to say the quality control in a part now is as good as when this engine was new?
Figger 500 hours to really break in a motor, and when you have done so, you won't be much further from where you are now, but will have spend a lot of money.

having said that, seals are the one thing that do deteriorate with age, regardless of whether it is running or not, so again, i would look at replacing the obvious ones simply because oil leaks are a pain. 

Having a spare heat exchanger makes sense, as well as replacing soft parts like hoses and pump impellers. But if you are really anxious to lighten your wallet, send me the money and I will personally guarantee that you won't have a block problem. Isn't that easier than hunting down Mazda parts? 

And remember about the mechanic - unless he's your *****, he's in a conflict of interest here.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Well, I can't NOT haul it if I need its various pieces inspected. Understand that I am in Lake Ontario, with a five and a half month sailing season. I have the problem of "too little use". I also personally had an issue with a busted anti-siphon valve sending water into the crankcase this summer, the cure for which included multiple oil changes, kerosene rinses and about a hundred bucks in filters. That's how I noticed the corrosion on the valve springs and rockers.

I may not need a rebuild, but it is possible that the sheer age of the engine and its less-than-ideal usage pattern (short runs in cool water) may have aged or worn certain components prematurely. The hour meter is a relative measure of wear, not an absolute. I have heard of 10,000 hour Perkins 4-108s that have yet to be rebuilt...in the tropics. Here, some three to five-year old Yanmars need attention because revving a cold diesel to make a spring race, then shutting it down, and then blasting back to dock to make the buffet table (and then shutting down...for a week...) is a great way to pooch the diesel. 

I don't know how the previous owners ran the engine. I do know they didn't run it much. I am intending to circumnavigate with this engine as a big part of the boat's systems. I want to remedy any potential issues before I go, and that involves a tear-down. That's also why I'm sending it to a "land-based" shop where they have the tools and the experience not to break castings or over-torque. If I didn't have a day job, I could do this, but it would take me 40 hours instead of 10 because I've only ever taken apart an Atomic 4, and this is twice the size. I don't have the drifts, the special pliers and the compression/static test equipment to do the job in a freezing garage, nor, really, do I have the time. But mainly, I don't have the knowledge. I'd rather take a "diesel 101" course on a basic engine that wasn't mine.

I feel your pain with Volvo. They are pretty reliable, until they aren't, and then they are a nightmare. Unionized Vikings are very expensive, which is why if I ever have to repower, Volvo is off the list.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

HoffaLives said:


> The thing to remember about engines - especially good japanese ones - is they really don't break, not in the way that you are thinking. While they can be abused and so wear faster than they should, the quality control is such that it is very, very rare to say throw a rod or drop a valve. If you rebuild now, you will be replacing essential new parts with new parts, and who's to say the quality control in a part now is as good as when this engine was new?
> Figger 500 hours to really break in a motor, and when you have done so, you won't be much further from where you are now, but will have spend a lot of money.
> 
> having said that, seals are the one thing that do deteriorate with age, regardless of whether it is running or not, so again, i would look at replacing the obvious ones simply because oil leaks are a pain.
> ...


The mechanic will know that he comes recommended from the same guy who gives him diesel locomotive rebuild and service business for CP and CN Rail, and so will hopefully be motivated to do the job right. Frankly, I have worked with engine rebuilders before, and they seem just as happy to leave the parts sourcing to the client. If I learn that all the rods, journals, bearings, etc. are minty fresh, or good for 5,000-8,000 of normal use, I will say OK, replace all seals and gaskets, clean and align the injectors, and give it a new paint job."

Nothing would make me happier, really.

But until I get a guy with a micrometer in one hand and a wrench in the other, putting greasy fingerprints on my shop manual, I simply don't know what will be required.

Wallet lightening is optional, but sometimes necessary. As for "the search", I found a recently sold Bayfield 40 in Florida that had a W-52 rebuilt in 2005. I'm trying to convince the nice broker man to connect me to the previous owner to see whether he just got all "Westerbeke parts" and had a marine diesel guy do it for $100/hr., or whether he actually confirmed my impression that a Mazda rebuild kit (still available, by the way) did the trick and that Billy Bob the Tractor Guy fixed it up over the weekend.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

ball bearings and seals can be found at an industrial supply company but you will need a sample or at least the measurments. Most bearings and seals have a part or refference number on them. You would be supprised at how many other things you can find there and if not they can usually tell you where.
Napa auto parts still has some good parts books with pictures and even has a marine catalog and a 10 percent discount for AAA club members here in Caifornia.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Yes... read the number off the bearing, and read the numbers off the seal.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Good advice...thanks...man, this thread is bringing the closet rebuilders out of the woodwork...


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Stefa final drive seal from Volvo... £49.

From Aberdeen Bearing Company... £3.50.... ten years on, it still seals.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have built lots of engines mostly trucks,cars etc.. I think you should do it careful to check gaskets, do not buy if made in china, or india, the specs. are not the same. Also, look at the edges mostly headgaskets copper,stainless, are good do not get the cheap metal versions My grand-pa always buy the best u can afford,cause u can,t aford to break down wayyyy out!!!!!!!!!


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