# Reasonable offer for a used boat?



## barleyrye (Dec 6, 2015)

Narrowing in on my used boat, and I want to know what people consider reasonable when making an offer? I obviously want to get the best price and not overpay, but I also do not want to blow the deal. This will be my first larger boat purchase, so I'm accustom to car or house purchases. I have compared the asking price to nada, and it's a fair amount off. 
Clean survey, Nice rigging, slightly outdated electronics, older boat 1989, average asking price for similar boats 72-85k, insurance will only cover 72k due to year and nada data. 
Any suggestions would help? 
As always, thank you all for your help


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## PaThomas123 (Mar 29, 2011)

When i made the offer on my boat I went in quite a bit under the asking price around 15% with the expectation that the owner would counter but he just agreed to it so i was well I bought a boat so my advice would be offer what you think and be prepared to follow through with the deal and never fall in love with it till after you have bought it. as far as the "overpay" part you will always overpay for everything if what you buy has deprecation but I did not buy my boat as an investment other than in myself good luck and fair winds


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

You will find many different opinions on this. Here is my take.

Unless you have deep pockets and can take a financial hit, the boat is worth what the banks will give you for a loan and what the insurance companies will cover you for. This includes any dough you have to invest in repairs to ensure the bank will back you and insurance companies will continue coverage.

If it's a high end purchase (and that number ay vary depending on your wallet), be sure the insurance company has excepted the survey, get it in writing. They can and will come back and ask for proof that things are addressed to continue coverage.

So, could a boat be worth more to you? Sure, a well maintained boat with lots of toys might be a better deal at a higher price. But, if you have to sell it, be sure that you will have plenty of cash buyers out there who feel the same way. If you are up in that price range that will require financing for the majority of buyers, well, good luck trying to get what you need because no bank will offer a secured loan for more than the value of the item and most insurance companies won't want to cover for more than the bank thinks it's worth. There are exceptions, but they usually cost more in interest and premiums so you are paying even more for that "over priced" boat.

Finding a broker to show you what the comparable boats are selling for (not asking price, sold prices on closed deals) might be a big help as this is generally not more than the banks are willing to loan.

disclaimer: many people will disagree because they know in their hearts that their boat is worth more than some stupid bank or insurance company will give them for it.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

This is sound advice. If you can't insure it for more than 72, then that would be top number to me, but I bought mine 6 years ago for 50% ask, cash. Was completely prepared to walk and keep looking. Lots of GOBs out there right now.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

RobGallagher is correct. The asking price often bears little relationship to what they actually sell for. Your broker and/or surveyor should have access to soldboats.com which is where all the actual sales data of boats sold on yachtworld.com is posted.

Neither NADA nor BUC have a close relationship with the real market in my experience.


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## barleyrye (Dec 6, 2015)

Wow, thank you all for the great information. I will try and reach out to a brocker in charleston, to get a fair price estimate. Also confirm that insurance will take my survey.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You might reasonably expect to get a boat for 50% ask if the ask is low.. pretty unlikely you'll get a (reasonably priced) $50K boat down to $25K - though it's been known to happen esp lately if the boat's been on the market a while. Odds are, though, that she was overpriced to start with.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Faster said:


> You might reasonably expect to get a boat for 50% ask if the ask is low.. pretty unlikely you'll get a (reasonably priced) $50K boat down to $25K - though it's been known to happen esp lately if the boat's been on the market a while. Odds are, though, that she was overpriced to start with.


In my case, not so, but more of an issue with knowing the local market at the time and knowing how much the guy wanted to unload her. She was priced appropriately for condition and national market, but overpriced locally. Different markets, particularly when you're talking about the 50K and under markets where people are less likely to be flying all over the place or spending big bucks to relocate the boat. Might even extend into the range of the OP, but agree less likely.


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Not sure where you are located, but if you are in a colder climate, you are saving the seller the cost of winter storage (and assuming it), so that factors into the equation. Don't overlook sail condition/replacement cost. Also, a common production boat will have more sales data than a limited production boat.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I can't help with your specific case because I don't have nearly enough information.

I can tell you that for boats, especially boats over 10 years old, NADA is useless. Some examples for boats I know well: NADA lists a 2002 C&C 110 for under $70K in average condition, and a 1986 O'day 35 for $25K. Good luck buying either of those boats for that money.

Regarding insurance, I have Allstate. When I buy insure a boat they ask me how much I want to insure it for, and that's the value they assign. They have never asked me for a survey, and their rates are very good.

Barry


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

A reasonable offer price for a used boat is a little less than the boat is worth. You can allow the seller to counter you up to the value of the boat, otherwise you should pass on the boat, rather than pay more than the boat is worth.

The value of the boat may have a passing relationship to the asking price, the BUC price, the NADA price, etc. or to none of these. The trick is determining the boat's value. 

To do so, use the same practice that real estate brokers and property assessors use - create a spreadsheet to analyze three or more sales of comparable boats, adjusting their selling prices based on or the differences in equipment and upgrade status, and let the sheet tell you what the boat in question is worth. Note that completed upgrades are likely in a listing, the the deferred/overdue ones may not be.

The value of any one example of a specific model/year can easily vary 50%, more or less, from "average" price based on equipment and upgrade status. You make an offer based on the "average" price and you run the likelihood of over-paying for a under-equipped or under-maintained example - you will not be able to make a deal on the above average boats because the seller is likely to know the value of his example and the average price just wont cut it.

The golden rule is - when buying a boat the most you should expect is to get what you pay for...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I don't have much compunction to offering a ridiculously low price, if I think the owner needs to get out from under. The way the system works, the owner can come back with a counter offer, and so forth.
Things to keep in mind are the time of year; fall or winter in cooler climates, will the owner want to continue paying storage and insurance on a boat he can't use, etc? Also, if the market is depressed, will the owner turn down a definite sale on the maybe he can get more at some later date?
Offer what you would like to get the boat for and go up from there.
I bought mine for 2/3 of asking and the owner pouted for a week before he came down to show me a few things about the boat that I hadn't already figured out. In the end he was OK, because he knew the chances of selling the boat going into winter in NY were slim and at least he was out from under the expense of owning a 50' boat.
Good luck.


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## Curious Sailor (Dec 6, 2015)

Just make him an offer he can't refuse! Lol


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I try to offer someone a fair price for their boat. Golden rule: do not do to others what you do not want done to you. Often the seller who is not unhappy about the deal will give you some extras, or at least tell you things about the boat that are valuable to you. Like what will need a repair soon.


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## Curious Sailor (Dec 6, 2015)

I agree krisskross.. I actually just wrote a post on my blog all about making an offer, and in the end the seller and I have become friends...


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Funny I have been looking for a long time. I have put in offers on several boats to be told no, or that it was already sold. I have missed on many boats, due to not being willing to move quick enough. I tend to deliberate things too much. So I look at a boat, it was a lot rougher than I really wanted to get involved in. So I threw out an impossibly low number just to let her be the one to say no. She comes back, and said OK, I really don't care how much money we get for it I just want to see my fathers boat be sailed again and not cut up. So I got lucky? Time will tell. I do know if it came down to it, I could cut the keel off the boat and get twice what I paid for the boat at the scrap yard. But she floats, came with 11 sails in usable shape and the engine started on the first crank and it had a full tank of gas. As the marina owner (who has known the previous owner for many years) said "you stole that boat, heck it had a full tank of gas." But she needs more work than I could ever get for her once done, so I will not say I got a good deal, instead I will say I got a boat!


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

There are so many peculiar misconceptions about buying a boat, or for that matter, any used item.

The most peculiar is to think in terms of offering some "percentage" of the asking price. Eight different people with similar boats for sale may have eight, wildly differing prices. They may run the gamut from below market, to market, to obscenely over market. With that in mind, "percentage" of asking price has no meaning. Offer 20% of obscenely over market and you're a chump.

What the owner thinks the boat is worth and may be asking for it, may or may not bear a relationship to the actual value. You determine what it's worth and base your offer on that. If the asking price is 100k, and the boat's worth 60k, your reasonable offer might anger the owner, but that's _their_ problem.

I collect old sewing machines and I know the values very well. There's a Singer 301 on our local Craig's right now, and the owner wants $400.00. It's worth $75.00 in excellent condition. So, do I offer them $325.00 or $50.00? Do they get mad if I offer $50.00? Do I care? They can be buried with the damn thing for all I care.

Another misconception is fear of the lowball offer. As a seller, why should you be offended by a lowball offer? Unless the potential buyer has used a _lot_ of your time, what's it matter? All the seller has to do is say, "it's looks like we're very far apart, and I don't think I have a counter-offer for you".

And there's no reason for you to not make a lowball offer. If the owner gets mad, so what. If they refuse to listen to higher offers, you're dealing with a nut, and that's never good. Ask yourself, are there guys who make lowball offers who eventually find an owner who needs to make a quick sale and get "steal" pricing. Yes. Will you get the "steal" if you don't ask? No. The worst that can happen is they take a swing at you. And I'm ready for that.

"If I don't pay enough they might not like me". Figure out how many hours you have to work to make $5,000.00 in discretionary (boat buying) money? For a lot of people, it may be several months. If you can save $5k off the purchase price, that's REAL MONEY.

Would you rather have some stranger hold a little ill will toward you (that they get over), or would you rather pay too much and be mad at yourself pretty much forever?

It's not personal. Some people want to make it personal, but it's not.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Making a reasonable offer is important for all the reasons mentioned. However, if you see a boat you like but it's a bit out of your price range, there is nothing wrong with offering what you can afford at the time.

It's how you go about your business that is most important. Trying to justify a low ball offer by picking out faults and criticizing things will be a massive waste of everyones time and likely work to your disadvantage. Telling a buyer you love the boat but only have XX amount to spend is not such a bad thing.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*low ball ofers*

Hey,

The risk of a low ball offer is that the seller may think you are not serious, or a jerk, and just won't deal with you anymore.

When I saw selling my O'day 35, I priced it fairly. I had some interest in the boat, but not a lot. This was expected because the market for 30 year old racer cruisers is not huge . Anyway, every week or so I would get a ridiculous low ball offer (50% of asking). I would just reply 'sorry but you're not even close' and then stop dealing that person.

I have made some low ball offers myself. In this case i was clear to the seller that I thought the item was worth more, but that my offer was all the money *I* could afford. Sometimes that worked, most times it didn't.

Barry



Siamese said:


> Another misconception is fear of the lowball offer. As a seller, why should you be offended by a lowball offer? Unless the potential buyer has used a _lot_ of your time, what's it matter? All the seller has to do is say, "it's looks like we're very far apart, and I don't think I have a counter-offer for you".
> 
> And there's no reason for you to not make a lowball offer. If the owner gets mad, so what. If they refuse to listen to higher offers, you're dealing with a nut, and that's never good. Ask yourself, are there guys who make lowball offers who eventually find an owner who needs to make a quick sale and get "steal" pricing. Yes. Will you get the "steal" if you don't ask? No. The worst that can happen is they take a swing at you. And I'm ready for that.
> 
> ...


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

*Re: low ball ofers*



BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> The risk of a low ball offer is that the seller may think you are not serious, or a jerk, and just won't deal with you anymore.
> 
> ...


Another anecdote- when I was shopping, I looked at a boat in very good condition, but needed a new set of sails. I priced a set, offered at asking price minus new sails. Guy said no. I really liked the boat, went up 3-5%, said no. I walked away. Bought my current boat. 6 months later got an email asking if I was still interested at the price I offered. If it's not the right deal, walk away. Guy probably thought I was a jerk the first time, but found my email when he decided I was "the market".
Happy hunting.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

*Re: low ball ofers*



seaner97 said:


> Another anecdote- when I was shopping, I looked at a boat in very good condition, but needed a new set of sails. I priced a set, offered at asking price minus new sails. Guy said no. I really liked the boat, went up 3-5%, said no. I walked away. Bought my current boat. 6 months later got an email asking if I was still interested at the price I offered. If it's not the right deal, walk away. Guy probably thought I was a jerk the first time, but found my email when he decided I was "the market".
> Happy hunting.


My first 'big boat' was year 2000. Asking was 18K, when it dropped to 15K, I offered 9K and we settled at 11K and a pair of tickets to see Dylan. It was a trade in on a new boat, it was fall and they were staring down winter storage.

Second boat 2012, I offered 72% of the asking price but was turned down and told by the broker, Tim Wilbricht, that the owner thought we were too far apart to negotiate.
I looked at other boats, had one surveyed and it failed miserably. The broker was not returning my calls to refund my deposit. Before calling a lawyer I decided to call Tim Wilbricht to see if he would put in a call for me. Both are Beneteau dealers. Tim seemed like a straight up guy so I was hoping he would talk some sense into this other idiot. Plus, if one Beneteau dealer is acting like this he will make them all look bad.
Long story short, all of a sudden I get a call back, my check is in the mail. Well it wasn't. More lies.
In the mean time Tim and I talk about the boat I could not get the deal on and I suggest calling the owner and putting in a verbal offer for the original price. Three months had gone by and nothing had happened, so, why not?
I get a call back from Tim Wilbricht in less than three minutes..sold! I'm pretty excited. Tim had to make a couple more calls because I simply could not afford to buy a boat with the last deposit being held by this dishonest broker. In the end I got it back but it took a couple more weeks of begging.

Anyway, if you need an honest broker on the Chesapeak, Tim is at Annapolis Yacht Sales.


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## barleyrye (Dec 6, 2015)

thank you all for your great input


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Will second the advice of RobGallagher. Talk to to a yacht broker. They have access to soldboat.com data and can help you with entire process. Won't cost you anything if the boat you are buying is being sold by another broker and not for sale by owner.


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## Curious Sailor (Dec 6, 2015)

Curious Sailor said:


> I agree krisskross.. I actually just wrote a post on my blog all about making an offer, and in the end the seller and I have become friends...


Thanks Bristol


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

After talking with a broker, the next step is to contact an independent marine surveyor and have the boat gone over with a find tooth comb. A good surveyor will provide you with a survey for purchase and a price range for that particular boat. Additionally, he will find things out about that boat that you never dreamed of, which can save you a lot of grief.

Good luck,

Gary


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## Hannibal (Dec 15, 2015)

I try for 10 percent below what I feel its worth. Doesn't hurt to give it a shot.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Hannibal said:


> I try for 10 percent below what I feel its worth. Doesn't hurt to give it a shot.


Depends on the boat - lots of boats are priced way more than 10% more than they are worth. Instead of going with what you "feel" is right, talk to a broker. He should be able to figure out what the market will bear based on the current market. "If you don't know your jewels, know your jeweler." If you don't know what the boat is worth, talk to someone who does.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

You should only offer what the boat is worth to YOU! If all you are looking for is a deal you aren't going to enjoy boat ownership.


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## Curious Sailor (Dec 6, 2015)

Don0190 said:


> You should only offer what the boat is worth to YOU! If all you are looking for is a deal you aren't going to enjoy boat ownership.


My boat was worth a million bucks to me when I bought it.. And it had three giant holes in the hull. Lol:cut_out_animated_em


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Really the only independent source of pricing available to the average Joe is NADA and Boat Bucs value, both are free. But are often not very accurate, hard to be as there are limited number of sales to compare, after all there are more 1999 Camrys sold in a given year than likely all the boats total for that year used and new. BoatUS offers a similar service for it's members, you should be a member anyway. BoatUS service used to be free for anyone but I think they have limited resources as the few requests I made were always by the same friendly woman. You submit the form and get a detailed email response. I think the thinking was they would do the same evaluation if you got insurance from them, so offer it as a free service and hope to them as a customer. 

If it is being sold through a broker you can ask for comparable prices from soldboat.com (professionals side of yachtworld.com) and they should give you a print out of past sale prices and the actual listing of previous similar boats. Many surveyors have access to this as well. 

Or if you want really wild speculation list what boat it is here and you will hear the range of not a dime over $2000 to $200,000.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Depends on the boat - lots of boats are priced way more than 10% more than they are worth. Instead of going with what you "feel" is right, talk to a broker. He should be able to figure out what the market will bear based on the current market. "If you don't know your jewels, know your jeweler." If you don't know what the boat is worth, talk to someone who does.


You should not rely on a broker for price advice, as his job is to sell you the boat, even if he/she has never seen it.

If you have developed a good, trusted working relationship with a broker, then its fine to use him/her as one resource for an opinion of value. But someone, somewhere still needs to do the homework necessary to develop an informed opinion of a specific boat. Unless a broker has sold three or four examples of the boat in question, their opinion of value is a ballpark one.

To cold call a broker and rely on their opinion of value is not a whole lot better than asking the guy in the next slip.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

What has become evident to me from this discussion is that it is difficult for both the buyer and seller to determine the 'value' of the boat. Therefore, it would seem reasonable to give and receive low-ball offers. If the seller has had the boat on the market long enough, with little enough interest, the will probably move toward a more reasonable price.

How about this for a complication: I bought my boat from a charitable organization. I felt a bit guilty about making an offer that was too low, feeling that it would be taking money away from the charity... does that mean I can claim the difference as a deduction on my taxes...hmmm.


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