# Fer’ners inbound!



## ootinaboot (Apr 8, 2020)

Dearest International Sailheads,

What happens if you’re an American and arrive in a U.S. port of entry with someone on board from a country whose citizens require a visa to enter the U.S. (that is, not part of the U.S. visa waiver program)? Will they be arrested? Will you? Or will they merely be required to stay on board?

I mean, I’m sure commercial vessels arrive in U.S. ports every day with crewmembers who don’t have visas. What happens to them?

Years ago I was in a Japanese port that had lots of Russian sailors coming and going. When I went to buy a train ticket out of town the people at the station refused to sell me one...until they figured out that I was an American. So I came to imagine that the international standard might be that foreign crew members are allowed off their boats as long as they don’t go too far.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Methinks you should have checked that out before you all left from yon foreign port. Bet it could get expensive and you buy the ticket.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

In this scenario, if the immigration officers are lenient, the boat will have to leave with those who have no visa. If said officers are not lenient, there might be criminal charges and the foreigners will get on the immigration blacklist and not be allowed into the USA at all for at least 5 years. This information was gleaned from officers in St. John while clearing in a while back - they had just sent a boat back to the BVI because of exactly this situation.

The airlines and ferry companies have a bond and carry the burden of returning passengers denied entry back. Since private vessels don't have that bond, the risk is mitigated by requiring visas for foreigners prior to arrival; and even then the officers can deny entry.

On a related note, I cleared into St. Martin a couple of years back with two friends, both holding South African passports and both having visas. There had been some government change and the new rules forced the officers to deny entry to one of the passengers (a medical doctor!) and luckily I convinced them to allow me to keep her on board on my own cognizance rather than letting her spend the night in a holding cell. They then gave me the option of buying her an airplane ticket and flying her out and remaining or leaving with her for another port. And this was a benign case that could have gone much worse.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

ootinaboot said:


> Dearest International Sailheads,
> 
> What happens if you're an American and arrive in a U.S. port of entry with someone on board from a country whose citizens require a visa to enter the U.S. (that is, not part of the U.S. visa waiver program)? Will they be arrested? Will you? Or will they merely be required to stay on board?
> 
> ...


Yes we would let every foreign terrorist just wander off the boat as long as they don't go to far. They can only use ricin or blow up a building as long as it's close by. ?

Are you kidding


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I *never* take crew into *any* country they are not a citizen of, visa or no visa, unless they have supplied me with an open ticket to their *country of origin* (the country they hold a passport from).
The vessel is responsible for repatriation of any crew member denied entry for whatever reason. Should the vessel (in the form of the captain or owner) not have the funds to repatriate the crew member, the vessel can be impounded by the government of the country and sold for the cost of any expenses necessary to satisfy repatriation. While this is all happening, many countries will incarcerate the parties involved and these costs will be added to the bill.
These days things are a bit more severe. I've heard of a number of sailing boats refused entry into Caribbean and Pacific island nations and literally turned away, some without enough provisions to reach a port in their country of origin.

We know of two American cruising boats headed for Tahiti (2k nm) right now, after being denied entry into the Marquesas. They will certainly be denied entry into Tahiti, leaving them only American Samoa or Hawaii (3k nm). They were warned and I wonder why they didn't sail for Hawaii directly from the Marquesas. So, instead of a 2 nm voyage when already light on provisions, they chose over 5k nm? What were they thinking?


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## ootinaboot (Apr 8, 2020)

On the other hand, if you don’t bother to contact the authorities then there’s not much that they can do to you...other than arrest you and charge you with a serious crime if they somehow DO catch you, of course. Roll yer dice and move yer mice.

I’m reminded of Indonesia. When I was cruising there 10 years ago I was struck by two things. 1. How difficult their bureaucrats want to make life for cruisers and 2. How difficult it would be for them to even know you were there if you didn’t contact them.

Just curious, though, how do developed nations detect cruisers approaching their shores? How do their naval panopticons work?


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

Just for the avoidance of doubt, even if you are from a visa waiver country, you still need a visa to enter on a private vessel. An ESTA does not work. The only exception that I am personally aware of is if you arrive in the USVI on commercial plane or boat, sail to the BVI and then check back into USVI or Puerto Rico with your BVI checkout papers, an ESTA is acceptable.

Even developing nations have radar and even binoculars so it is pretty rare that you can land somewhere and just hope to blend in...


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I’m in a slightly different situation. 

I’m dual citizen USA/Canada. My Wife is USA only.

If I sail direct to Canada and check in I’m good. My Wife gets a 6 month Visa, automatic.

But also I was recently reading USA guidelines for incoming persons, related to virus restrictions. 
USA Citizens have right of entry. They can also bring in direct family members. 
Green Card holders has the same rights IIRC.
They did not describe what family member connection was adequate but I’m assuming my Wife would be included. I’m also assuming Canada will have similar policies.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

ootinaboot said:


> Just curious, though, how do developed nations detect cruisers approaching their shores? How do their naval panopticons work?


In the past I've entered from overseas both the Chesapeake and NYC without being challenged, but I doubt that could happen today. It is said that some developed nations have satellites that can read the license plate on a car, so I doubt a slow moving yacht is going to sneak through, considering almost every country has closed or at least limited entry.
Even in the days of the cocaine cowboys, the US had enough coastal defences (including balloons like in WWI & II) that eventually the cartels had to switch to land or air transportation.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

hpeer said:


> I'm in a slightly different situation.
> 
> I'm dual citizen USA/Canada. My Wife is USA only.
> 
> ...


I would be very cautious about taking anything you have heard about federal entry policies as gospel, even from official sources, when it comes to this administration. It seems to do an about face every few minutes on so many fronts.
Were I to be forced out of Grenada, I would contact my Congressman before I departed, giving him my approximate date of arrival, and the very first call I made as I entered US waters would be to him. 
It may be that CBP, CG & ICE will all have different directives.


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## JamesLD (Jul 16, 2019)

ootinaboot said:


> On the other hand, if you don't bother to contact the authorities then there's not much that they can do to you...other than arrest you and charge you with a serious crime if they somehow DO catch you, of course. Roll yer dice and move yer mice.


LOL, pretty much the same mindset as someone smuggling drugs! :grin


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

capta said:


> In the past I've entered from overseas both the Chesapeake and NYC without being challenged, but I doubt that could happen today. It is said that some developed nations have satellites that can read the license plate on a car, so I doubt a slow moving yacht is going to sneak through, considering almost every country has closed or at least limited entry.
> Even in the days of the cocaine cowboys, the US had enough coastal defences (including balloons like in WWI & II) that eventually the cartels had to switch to land or air transportation.


I once arranged a tour of the U.S Coast Guard of the VTS (Vessel Traffic Service) in New York Harbor. This was pre 9/11. Back then they had a large number of cameras around the harbor. Who knows what they have today. If some cruiser tried to sneak in and was caught they better not lie about when they came in because they could verify when they actually entered very easily.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Curious about the opposite. 4 US. Citizens. All with global entry. Boat US documented. Entry to home port regional center for customs/immigration. Anybody in that situation want to share their experience?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Curious about the opposite. 4 US. Citizens. All with global entry. Boat US documented. Entry to home port regional center for customs/immigration. Anybody in that situation want to share their experience?


Wondering if I'm missing something. Are you asking about a US citizen, clearing into the US on a US documented vessel? That doesn't seem to be questionable. Maybe a nuance I missed. However, the specific State's quarantine rules at the moment would apply.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

That’s what I was asking experience with CBP/ROAM it this time.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Interested in someone who has gone through. Not someone who is about to go through in the future.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

Two experiences to share from two different situations as people seek to head back to US from Antigua. 

In the last 24 hours, a British Captain on a B1/B2 Visa but on a US documented boat arrived and checked in to the USVI successfully having left Antigua the day before. He used CBP roam app and I cannot believe it would have been worse for US citizen on US boat. 

Also yesterday, a US couple on US boat arrived in Hampton after having checked in to Palm Beach a few days earlier without a problem. Left their boat in VA because no good weather window to head to Newport apparently. Drove on up to RI. 

However, some change may have occurred in the last 24 hours and past experience is no guarantee of future success... 

Hope that helps.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Well that’s interesting. 

I have an email notification of a post, and it’s text, but the post is not here.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

If you haven’t used DTOPS for awhile you’ll need to change your password and the fee has gone up as well. Also make sure you have something that will give you internet when you enter US waters.
They want you to preclear via internet before entering. We keep our US based phones/pads active when in the islands. Some drop US vendors as they only use local chips (orange, flow or digicel) for much of the year. So if you do so think of a work around.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Outbound,

You may be asking an unknowable question. I think the answer is that as an American citizen you can not be denied elder try. HOWEVER that doesn't account for the situation you may find at the border. The agent may not know, may have some different instructions, may have hD a fight with his wife, etc. it is well known that different CBP districts have different interpretations of the rules and effect the differently at least for non-citizens.

I think it's clear that you SHOULD be allowed in. And I believe if you read the orders from back in March when they first restricted travel to 6 international airports they clearly said Citizens and green card holders and their kin would be accepted. It did not specify what constituted kin.

That is what SHOULD happen. What DOES happen is anyone's guess.

I would bet the Salty Dawgs would have recent experience. If you do call please pass on what they said.

https://www.axios.com/us-citizens-rights-at-the-border-430039f3-724b-4a26-8ad8-976346c95431.html



> Why it matters: A U.S. citizen cannot be denied entry.
> 
> U.S. citizens must be admitted, says Cope.
> Green card holders should also be allowed entry back into the U.S. as long as they haven't been outside of the U.S. for more than a year.
> However, American travelers can find themselves undergoing secondary inspection if they don't have the proper travel documents, their passport has expired or they're on a no-fly list, according to Johnson.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

hpeer said:


> Well that's interesting.
> 
> I have an email notification of a post, and it's text, but the post is not here.


Did you notice if it said it was in 'deleted' posts?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

My congressman in RI has said after I clear in I will be subject to the state's regulations regarding quarantine, et.al.
I have heard the Chesapeake is closed to all pleasure boat traffic, so the Virginia story above was either before it was closed or possibly misinformation.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

capta said:


> Did you notice if it said it was in 'deleted' posts?


It's in an email alert message, I didn't see "deleted" anywhere in the message.

Seemed a perfectly fine post to me.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

hpeer said:


> It's in an email alert message, I didn't see "deleted" anywhere in the message.
> 
> Seemed a perfectly fine post to me.


Sorry, I get those from your notification on the top of the page.
"10:42 AM - hpeer quoted capta in post Re: Fer'ners inbound!
Did you notice if it said ..."
Where it says "in post Re:" it will say deleted posts.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Sorry Capta, I don’t get what you are asking. 

I see “deleted” nowhere.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

hpeer said:


> Sorry Capta, I don't get what you are asking.
> 
> I see "deleted" nowhere.


No worries, I'm probably way off base. Sorry.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I’ve been thinking of flying back to St. Lucia, launching the boat and sailing home. My port of entry will be Newport, R.I.
I realize this is contingent on being able to get a flight down, being allowed into St. Lucia, being able to leave. Current insurance requires at least 3 aboard. All this is theoretical at present as transportation is shut down. Expect until vaccine is available and you’re able to demonstrate proof of vaccine or active antibodies international travel will remain difficult so boat maybe stuck on the hard for some time to come. 
I’ve cleared multiple times at Newport with no hassles. Almost informal if you have all US citizens. SDR people haven’t been clearing in at Newport. Most folks in the flotillas left and entered here some time ago. People say what people say. Still, wondering if anyone has gone through the process recently and what it was like?


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## JamesLD (Jul 16, 2019)

capta said:


> My congressman in RI has said after I clear in I will be subject to the state's regulations regarding quarantine, et.al.
> I have heard the Chesapeake is closed to all pleasure boat traffic, so the Virginia story above was either before it was closed or possibly misinformation.


I think that there is a difference between "pleasure boats" and "pleasure boating", at least here in Maryland.

We (Maryland) have been under a stay-at-home order for 1 1/2 weeks, part of which prohibits "recreational boating." This means that I can't take my trailerable sailboat to the ramp, have a day sail, load my boat and go home.

I do not believe that transiting through Maryland waters are the same thing.

Here is part of the Q&A posted today on the MD DNR website:

_Can I travel by boat through Maryland?

While there are no orders limiting travel through Maryland by boat or car at this time, travelers are advised to make trips only for essential purposes. If travelers have been in close contact with others, we urge them to avoid close contact with others in Maryland and self-monitor for symptoms. If any symptoms develop, they should self-quarantine and contact a health care provider. We are also urging travelers to follow CDC guidance on domestic travel, which can be found here: cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/travel-in-the-us.html. _​
_Can I move my boat or have my boat moved from a marina to my home or my boat slip?

Yes, you can have your boat moved or delivered to your residence or boat slip. While it is not necessary for drivers in Maryland to have documentation about the purpose of travel, having such documentation may help. General recreational boating is not allowed.

Can I perform checks and maintenance on a vessel at a marina?

People can travel between homes or residences to perform essential maintenance. That would include a marine vessel if it is used as a home or residence, or if the essential maintenance seeks to prevent the loss of or damage to one's property. Individuals should check with the marina before traveling as many have reduced hours or suspended service during the pandemic._​
Probably would be worthwhile to check directly with the authorities for all the states involved.

Jim


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

JamesLD said:


> I think that there is a difference between "pleasure boats" and "pleasure boating", at least here in Maryland.
> 
> We (Maryland) have been under a stay-at-home order for 1 1/2 weeks, part of which prohibits "recreational boating." This means that I can't take my trailerable sailboat to the ramp, have a day sail, load my boat and go home.
> 
> ...


You may be correct. I was just going on a post I read, not verified information, so my bad.


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## ps23435 (Jul 13, 2011)

capta said:


> I have heard the Chesapeake is closed to all pleasure boat traffic, so the Virginia story above was either before it was closed or possibly misinformation.


Not sure where you heard that. VA waters in the Chesapeake are open. VA has not restricted recreational boating other then to maintain social distance, no raft ups, less then 10 people, etc. Charter fishing has been restricted in VA. While MD has banned recreational boating, MD is permitting recreational transit through their waters. (from the MD DNR FAQ: "Can I travel by boat through Maryland? While there are no orders limiting travel through Maryland by boat or car at this time, travelers are advised to make trips only for essential purposes."


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

So how does bringing a boat through Maryland waters constitute ESSENTIAL TRAVEL. 
ESSENTIAL TRAVEL has already been defined by Governor Hogan. Brining a boat through Maryland is not included in his definition of ESSENTIAL TRAVEL. 

THE exec Order says the you can “ you can have your boat moved or delivered to your residence or boat slip. “
No where does it say you can use Maryland water as a highway to points other than in Maryland than you home or your slip

The person I talked to today at the Maryland DNR said “ they don’t want boaters cruising through Maryland for recreational purposes as defined as Nonessential Purposes”


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## JamesLD (Jul 16, 2019)

chef2sail said:


> So how does bringing a boat through Maryland waters constitute ESSENTIAL TRAVEL.
> ESSENTIAL TRAVEL has already been defined by Governor Hogan. Brining a boat through Maryland is not included in his definition of ESSENTIAL TRAVEL.
> 
> THE exec Order says the you can " you can have your boat moved or delivered to your residence or boat slip. "
> ...


I think that essential travel pretty much defaults to anything that is not a recreational purpose. I believe that if one is moving a boat, this can be justified as essential travel.

If we back to the Q&A:

_Can I travel by boat through Maryland?

While there are no orders limiting travel through Maryland by boat or car at this time, travelers are advised to make trips only for essential purposes._​
I think we need to emphasize, "While there are no orders limiting travel..."

I'm not sure that even the Governor has the authority to close down this waterway to travel.

Jim


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

The governor of any state DOES NOT have the authority to regulate interstate commerce as defined:

Interstate commerce refers to the purchase, sale or exchange of commodities, transportation of people, money or goods, and navigation of waters between different states. Interstate commerce is regulated by the federal government as authorized under Article I of the U.S. Constitution.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JamesLD said:


> I think that essential travel pretty much defaults to anything that is not a recreational purpose. I believe that if one is moving a boat, this can be justified as essential travel.
> 
> If we back to the Q&A:
> 
> ...





> I'm not sure that even the Governor has the authority to close down this waterway to travel.


Who do you think controls the Maryland Chesapeake?

Sorry that doesn't even make sense. The Maryland Department of Natural Resources controls the Maryland Portion of the Chesapeake. This includes fishing licenses and pollution incidents and of course travel. DNR is a Department of State Government . The CEO of the state....Governor Hogan. 
He has the right to make decisions for the overall good of the people of Maryland.

Here is the Governors Executive Stay in Place Order
There are very specific definitions of ESSENTIAL TRAVEL unlike what you said. If you aren't engaged in essential services you are to STAY IN PLACE

https://governor.maryland.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Gatherings-FOURTH-AMENDED-3.30.20.pdf

I suggest you call the DNR of Maryland should you have specific questions as they CONTROL the Maryland Waters. Posting inaccurate information could get others in trouble and possible endanger the citizens of Maryland. I think you are self interpreting to your advantage here.

There is of course an alternative if you are moving you boat northward along the coast. Just pass by the opening of the Chesapeake and stay offshore to NJ. Va is not as restrictive so you can hold up there.

If the final destination of the vessel is in Maryland either a marina or a slip , that is permitted by the Excutive order and the DNR.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

The Federal Government controls the Navigable Waterways... not the governor.

“Waters that provide a channel for commerce and transportation of people and goods.
Under U.S. law, bodies of water are distinguished according to their use. The distinction is particularly important in the case of so-called navigable waters, which are used for business or transportation. Jurisdiction over navigable waters belongs to the federal government rather than states or municipalities. The federal government can determine how the waters are used, by whom, and under what conditions. It also has the power to alter the waters, such as by dredging or building dams. Generally a state or private property owner who is inconvenienced by such work has no remedy against the federal government unless state or private property itself is taken; if such property is taken, the laws of Eminent Domain would apply, which may lead to compensation for the landowner.

The basis for federal jurisdiction over navigable waters lies in the U.S. Constitution. Since the early nineteenth century, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that the Commerce Clause (Article 1, Section 8) gives the federal government extensive authority to regulate interstate commerce. This view originated in 1824 in the landmark case of gibbons v. ogden, 22 U.S. (9 Wheat.) 1, 6 L. Ed. 23. In Gibbons, the Court was faced with deciding whether to give precedence to a state or federal law for the licensing of vessels. It ruled that navigation of vessels in and out of the ports of the nation is a form of interstate commerce and thus federal law must take precedence. This decision led to the contemporary exercise of broad federal power over navigable waters, and in countless other areas of interstate commerce.

In practical terms federal regulation of navigable waters takes many forms. One area of this regulation covers matters of transportation and commerce: for example, rules governing the licensing of ships and the dumping of waste. A second area applies to the alteration of the navigable waters, which is strictly controlled by federal law. The Rivers and Harbors Appropriation Act of 1899 forbids building any unauthorized obstruction to the nation's navigable waters and gives enforcement powers to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. A third area of regulation involves Workers' Compensation claims. The concept of navigable waters is important in claims made under the Longshore and Harbor Workers' Compensation Act of 1988 (33 U.S.C.A. §§ 901–950). The act provides that employers are liable for injuries to sailors that occur upon navigable waters of the United States.

The vast body of federal regulation concerning navigable waters frequently gives rise to litigation, and in many cases the courts have the difficult job of determining whether particular bodies of water are navigable (and thus subject to the law or regulation in question). Lakes and rivers are generally considered navigable waters, but smaller bodies of water may also be navigable. Attempting to address years of problematic litigation, the U.S. Supreme Court in 1979 created four tests for determining what constitutes navigable waters. Established in Kaiser Aetna v. United States, 444 U.S. 164, 100 S. Ct. 383, 62 L. Ed. 2d 332, the tests ask whether the body of water (1) is subject to the ebb and flow of the tide, (2) connects with a continuous interstate waterway, (3) has navigable capacity, and (4) is actually navigable. Using these tests, courts have held that bodies of water much smaller than lakes and rivers also constitute navigable waters. Even shallow streams that are traversable only by canoe have met the test.”


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

So it’s the feds who determine fishing permits limits and licenses. I do t think so. 
Riparian rights are never determined in federal courts
Boat regulations...state control.

There are overlapping responsibilities. It’s not as cut and dry as presented. 

I understand the feds responsibility in navigable channels. 

I don’t wish to keep arguing this, it’s senseless. Neither of us are lawyers and have legal expertise in these areas but both can look up stiff on the internet. 

Back to the topic. There is a ban on recreational boating in MD. There is a STAY AT HOME ORDER except for essential processes which are defined.

A cruiser who must get to their home port or dock in MARYLAND can.
A cruiser who decides to visit the Chesapeake and anchor recreationally while visiting is not permitted according to my call to the MD DNR. 
A cruiser making any stops may get challenged by the DNR
A cruiser heading north to home base / dock MAY be permitted but one meandering their way from estuary to estuary will be considered recreational boating

Hopefully in the next couple of weeks this gets relaxed. Now is the times some of the cruisers are heading north.


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## JamesLD (Jul 16, 2019)

chef2sail,

I understand, and even share your passion of the stay-at-home order. In the past 1 and 1/2 weeks, I have been out of the house only three times - once to the market, once to Home Depot, and once to the Post Office. I support Governor Hogan's response to this public health emergency and support the ban on 'recreational boating.' I have been checking, daily, our state numbers of both Covid-19 cases and deaths, and even with a 1 1/2 week-old stay-at-home order we are still on the increasing slope of the curve. I believe that it is our civic duty to abide by the stay-at-home order as best as we can, not only for our own safety but for sake of our fellow Marylanders

My trailerable boat is in storage and will stay there until this crisis is over. I would not encourage anyone to be on their boats recreationally and try to pass it off as essential.

That said, I believe that the interstate travel on Navigable Waterway falls to the Federal Government.

Respectfully, 

Jim


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

Chef2sail,

I suggest you review the US Constitution, it’s “pretty cut and dry as presented,” regarding the Federal Government controlling rights and liberties of US citizens using Navigable waterways. BTW Navigable Waterways include much more than just the channels.

This subject was discussed in great detail on day one of my USCG captains course, but I did look it up for review to be sure. No lawyer necessary.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JamesLD said:


> chef2sail,
> 
> I understand, and even share your passion of the stay-at-home order. In the past 1 and 1/2 weeks, I have been out of the house only three times - once to the market, once to Home Depot, and once to the Post Office. I support Governor Hogan's response to this public health emergency and support the ban on 'recreational boating.' I have been checking, daily, our state numbers of both Covid-19 cases and deaths, and even with a 1 1/2 week-old stay-at-home order we are still on the increasing slope of the curve. I believe that it is our civic duty to abide by the stay-at-home order as best as we can, not only for our own safety but for sake of our fellow Marylanders
> 
> ...


Sounds like we are both handling this similarly. Haleakula is ready in the slip to go out. But she sits quietly


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## ps23435 (Jul 13, 2011)

Interesting back and forth. I suppose there is some room for interpretation of the MD DNRs FAQ which seems to explicitly permit transit of recreational vessels though MD waters at least under some circumstances. What I do find interesting in trying to look for more specifics, is that the language of the Governor's order specifically applies to "All persons living the state of Maryland..." Given a transiting vessel's operator is likely not a "person living in the state of Maryland" I wonder how the order would apply? Travel though MD be it by boat or car seems to be something not explicitly covered in the order but only in the interpretations. The Federal question is also not insignificant. There is clearly overlapping jurisdiction over navigable waters by Federal and state governments. The Commerce Clause of the Constitution is very broadly interpreted in many contexts. It is not a stretch to consider a recreational vessel being navigated by a delivery captain to be engaged in commerce. However, to my knowledge there are no court interpretations of whether a recreational vessel being operated by it's owner transiting from one state through another would constitute interstate commerce. The bottom line is yes, minimizing travel, staying home except when necessary, etc. is what everyone needs to be doing and in the case of many states (such as MD) is required by law. I don't live in MD but am restricting my movements according to the emergency directives in my state. Vessel navigation has always presented tricky questions of law and practice. Maybe MD DNR will issue further clarification on this one as more vessels may desire to transit north.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> Chef2sail,
> 
> I suggest you review the US Constitution, it's "pretty cut and dry as presented," regarding the Federal Government controlling rights and liberties of US citizens using Navigable waterways. BTW Navigable Waterways include much more than just the channels.
> 
> This subject was discussed in great detail on day one of my USCG captains course, but I did look it up for review to be sure. No lawyer necessary.


I suggest you try and talk to me in a less condescending manner. Last you wrote you were putting Outbound and I on ignore. Feel free to honor what you proposed.

I have a pretty good grasp of the Constitution. This subject was also discussed in my USCG courses also. There are overlapping areas of responsibilities and many test cases have been decide both ways also. It's not so black and white.

This thread is not about that so try and get someone else to go back and forth with you.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

ps23435 said:


> ...What I do find interesting in trying to look for more specifics, is that the language of the Governor's order specifically applies to "All persons living the state of Maryland..." Given a transiting vessel's operator is likely not a "person living in the state of Maryland" I wonder how the order would apply?


There are elements of his order that most certainly apply to non-residents, most notably the requirement that everyone coming in from out of state self-quarantine for 14 days.



ps23435 said:


> Interesting back and forth. I suppose there is some room for interpretation of the MD DNRs FAQ which seems to explicitly permit transit of recreational vessels though MD waters at least under some circumstances....Travel though MD be it by boat or car seems to be something not explicitly covered in the order but only in the interpretations...


I believe he has specifically said that he is not restricting vehicles passing through Maryland. If you're a car traveling from Pennsylvania to Virginia, you had better not stop in Maryland (or Delaware, for that matter) unless you're prepared to quarantine for 14 days.

I expect that similar things would apply to floating vessels passing through Maryland. If you're a snowbird making your annual trek north through Maryland, I personally would consider that essential travel, since it's a one-time, time critical transit (due to weather considerations) required to get back home.

However, I would advise you to provision for the entire transit, since going ashore in Maryland may require you to quarantine for 14 days. Anchoring overnight is fine, but don't go ashore.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> This subject was discussed in great detail on day one of my USCG captains course, but I did look it up for review to be sure.


OUPV? That makes sense.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> I suggest you try and talk to me in a less condescending manner. Last you wrote you were putting Outbound and I on ignore. Feel free to honor what you proposed.
> 
> I have a pretty good grasp of the Constitution. This subject was also discussed in my USCG courses also. There are overlapping areas of responsibilities and many test cases have been decide both ways also. It's not so black and white.
> 
> This thread is not about that so try and get someone else to go back and forth with you.


Please excuse me, but you've been the one telling everyone what they can't do according to your personal interpretation of your governor's order, I'm just trying to set the record straight according to federal laws which govern the navigable waterways.

Everyone should think of the navigable waterways like the interstate highway system, where the federal government controls their use, but leaves speed enforcement etc, up to the state to monitor. Example: Your local harbor patrol can issue a ticket for speeding or operating under the influence, but they tell you you can't use the waterway.

BTW: I did review the original post, the subject being discussed is about the use of the navigable waterways in the US.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The annual weather cycle is immune to covid and the government. The vast majority of my friends are home. This means their boats are in different countries or states. This has been a huge burden on those for whom their boat is their primary residence and a major difficulty for those who snowbird only occupying their dirt home part of the year. In all cases their boat is a major asset. For many their major non liquid asset. 
In the absence of effective point of service testing and a vaccine regardless of what law or mandate is in place people will move to protect that asset. Given the high degree of mobility of this subset of people they can serve as a most effective vector of disease. Please realize the history of all these laws concerning clearing and getting practique, of quarantine, of customs and immigration. They came in place to raise revenue (CG started as a revenue service) but as if not more importantly to control disease. 
This is counterbalanced by the citizens right of repatriation. Repatriation is defined as the right to return home. Home is your legal address. Since well before Typhoid Mary the states and the feds have had the right to quarantine if an individual was considered a risk to public health. Beyond that no restriction is placed . There can be multiple restrictions placed on what the individual can carry but not on his/hers person. 
I expect this country will open prematurely. The risk of death and social upheaval due to lockdown or distancing will approach risk of death from covid. Once that’s reached the country will open and a second wave will occur. The question is timing. If that occurs after point of service testing is available or ideally a vaccine boat traffic will be inconvenienced but open to all. If not we’ll be seeing a lot of people sailing East into the Gulf Stream. Then west to enter their home port. 
Egocentrically my boat will sit in St.Lucia. I wonder what will happen in the fall. Will I be allowed into St.Lucia? How do I bring her home in the spring of 2021?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The issue of State's rights over navigable waters is extremely well defined. The Fed owns the waterways and have delegated certain rights, not all rights, to the States. That's how State's accrue the right to establish NDZs. They did not delegate the right to interfere with navigable passage. 

It's abundantly clear that MD is exercising it's power over it's own citizens, not the waterway. It stands to reason, they can't tell a neighboring State what to do and, from the sounds of it, VA and DE are not as restricted, so MD tried to be sneaky with their "essential language", which has no definition. It obviously works on the hysterical. No one is so simple minded they can't understand the lack of contagion from a sailboat hundreds of feet, maybe miles, away that is transiting MD waters. 

If one is using federal waterways to move their boat home, MD has zero control over transient traffic and nothing I've seen posted above suggests otherwise. Saying transients should be essential is just saying, pretty please. They absolutely can restrict coming ashore, but I'm not reading up on whether they have or not. 

By the way, none of the quarantine orders I've seen permit detention, as opposed to self-quarantine, by the State. That's a huge distinction. They mandate self-quarantine, based on different triggers, depending on the State. However, if you want to leave the State, I don't believe they can stop you, as long as you don't come in contact with anyone.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

And if I’m a live aboard where do I self quarantine except on my boat?

If they make me go to a motel then I have to go out to eat, which is counter productive.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> The issue of State's rights over navigable waters is extremely well defined. The Fed owns the waterways and have delegated certain rights, not all rights, to the States. That's how State's accrue the right to establish NDZs. They did not delegate the right to interfere with navigable passage.
> 
> It's abundantly clear that MD is exercising it's power over it's own citizens, not the waterway. It stands to reason, they can't tell a neighboring State what to do and, from the sounds of it, VA and DE are not as restricted, so MD tried to be sneaky with their "essential language", which has no definition. It obviously works on the hysterical. No one is so simple minded they can't understand the lack of contagion from a sailboat hundreds of feet, maybe miles, away that is transiting MD waters.
> 
> ...


Not true. It's not working on the hysterical. That's rude to call other posters who differ with you or are in Maryland

From your perch up in New England please read this excerpt of MD Governor Hogan's SPECIFIC delineations of what ESSENTIAL TRAVEL means.....whose included, And what you should do. Try and keep an open mind.

MD is not trying to usurp power, it's attempting to protect its citizens and health care workers,. It has the right to prevent ANYONE from landing on its shores. It has the right to expect those who cone ashore to be quarantined for 14 days thereafter. As we move into testing it may be the way to prevent spread. Outsiders should expect to be quarantined.

So if you are sailing through no issue. If you intend to use your boat to dawdle and discover MD waters and it's towns no go. As soon as you come or have contact with land, expect to be quarantined.

If you come ashore and violate the STAY AT HOME laws on essential functions, expect to be fined. There are already instances where enforcement has happened.

I don't want to argue how stupid your Governor was in determining that this needed to work by being late to the party. I don't want to argue how bad it feels to not be able to use my sailboat while people are dying Round me. It's pretty small potatoes to ask boat owners to stand down and let us get our arms around this tragedy. Whining about not being able to joyride is kind of small potatoes when we could use that extra time to support those on the front line by volunteering or helping others. But alas some people in life feel they are privileged and are takers, while others are givers. They hind behind their civil rights. Now is the time for all of us to contribute, not just the less fortunate. I have volunteered while at home to be part of helping enforce the laws.

BTW
Here is a part of the order regarding ESSENTIAL 
Stay-at-Home Order.
a. All persons living in the State of Maryland are hereby ordered, effective as of 8:00 p.m. on March 30, 2020, to stay in their homes or places of residences ("Homes") except:
i. to conduct or participate in Essential Activities (defined below);
ii. staff and owners of businesses and organizations that are not required to close pursuant to paragraph IV or paragraph V below may travel:
1. between their Homes and those businesses and organizations; and
2. to and from customers for the purpose of delivering goods or performing services; and
iii. staff and owners of Non-Essential Businesses (defined below) may travel:
1. between their Homes and those Non-Essential Businesses for the purpose of engaging in Minimal Operations; and
2. to and from customers for the purpose of delivering goods.
b. As used herein, "Essential Activities" means:
-2-

i. Obtaining necessary supplies or services for one's self, family, household members, pets, or livestock, including, without limitation: groceries, supplies for household consumption or use, supplies and equipment needed to work from home, laundry, and products needed to maintain safety, sanitation, and essential maintenance of the home or residence;
ii. Engaging in activities essential for the health and safety of one's self, family, household members, pets, or livestock, including such things as seeking medical or behavior health or emergency services, and obtaining medication or medical supplies;
iii. Caring for a family member, friend, pet, or livestock in another household or location, including, without limitation, transporting a family member, friend, pet, or livestock animal for essential health and safety activities, and to obtain necessary supplies and services;
iv. Traveling to and from an educational institution for purposes of receiving meals or instructional materials for distance learning;
v. Engaging in outdoor exercise activities, such as walking, hiking, running, or biking, but only in compliance with paragraph III below and applicable social distancing guidance published by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention ("CDC") and the Maryland Department of Health ("MDH");
vi. Travel required by a law enforcement officer or court order; or
vii. Traveling to and from a federal, State, or local government building for a necessary purpose.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> ...It obviously works on the hysterical...


REALLY? I thought you were better than this. Show a little respect to those who want to listen to the scientists.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> No one is so simple minded they can't understand the lack of contagion from a sailboat hundreds of feet, maybe miles, away that is transiting MD waters..


Perhaps it is more about those who may be called on to rescue those aboard or tow said vessel, should complications arise? 
Didn't someone on sailnet post recently that in their opinion, breakdowns and broken gear were inevitable if one went out on a sail boat?
Kinda like going for a non-essential drive to the marina or wherever. About 6 million collisions happen each year in the US, which means other people must get involved in that 'joy ride', risking their safety. I'm also thinking a lot more people could be drinking and driving, which makes things even more statistically dangerous.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> Please excuse me, but you've been the one telling everyone what they can't do according to your personal interpretation of your governor's order, I'm just trying to set the record straight according to federal laws which govern the navigable waterways.
> 
> Everyone should think of the navigable waterways like the interstate highway system, where the federal government controls their use, but leaves speed enforcement etc, up to the state to monitor. Example: Your local harbor patrol can issue a ticket for speeding or operating under the influence, but they tell you you can't use the waterway.
> 
> BTW: I did review the original post, the subject being discussed is about the use of the navigable waterways in the US.


I interpret nothing. I just post the law directly. Even someone from an anchorage a couple of thousand miles away can read the kings English. I think it's clear what the governors order is.

You are just stirring up arguments for the sake of just that. You are not really affected by it. You pick up and spin out comments to create issues which are not really there. Then we get a bunch of legalese copy paste internet stuff. Meanwhile Rome is burning

We are living in the middle of it. It's not an intellectual argument for us. It's the reality outside my door. Maybe showing respect and humanity for those in the middle of it would help. We don't have time for arguments about who controls the waterways or whether the governor can issue restrictive orders. Most of us are working together to defeat this scourge in our communities
Our attention is turned toward the retirement communities within miles of us with 17 dead and 220 testing positive. This is our reality....not some made up verbiage sitting on a boat in a harbor away from the reality.

Pardon some here who don't really care about if you come to the Chesapeake. Just follow the laws. So far you haven't even shown willingness to follow the forums rules.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

capta said:


> Perhaps it is more about those who may be called on to rescue those aboard or tow said vessel, should complications arise?
> Didn't someone on sailnet post recently that in their opinion, breakdowns and broken gear were inevitable if one went out on a sail boat?
> Kinda like going for a non-essential drive to the marina or wherever. About 6 million collisions happen each year in the US, which means other people must get involved in that 'joy ride', risking their safety. I'm also thinking a lot more people could be drinking and driving, which makes things even more statistically dangerous.


Perfect explanation😀


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> I interpret nothing. I just post the law directly. Even someone from an anchorage a couple of thousand miles away can read the kings English. I think it's clear what the governors order is.
> 
> You are just stirring up arguments for the sake of just that. You are not really affected by it. You pick up and spin out comments to create issues which are not really there. Then we get a bunch of legalese copy paste internet stuff. Meanwhile Rome is burning
> 
> ...


I'm making plans at present which will require my ability to sail into the Chesapeake, rest, take on fuel, supplies and additional crew if necessary for the continuation of the voyage up to New England. Some of the Salty Dawg members will also be following the same route during the same time frame. Which is why the issues being discussed on this thread are very important to me and to fellow Salty Dawg members who are considering and Planning a similar voyage to reposition their person and boats. Just in case you missed the post, a fellow Salty Dawg member anchored not that far from me on a neighboring island, sadly passed away yesterday due to complications developed from the virus. Your location is not unique in any way. My wife and daughter both spent twelve hour shifts on Friday working directly with Covid-19 intubated patients in the ICU at Brigham and Woman's hospital in Boston. When I arrive home, I also intend to go back to work as an RN.

It's very important that accurate information is made available to everyone online and on this forum regarding our ability to not only sail into the Chesapeake, but also make a stop and go ashore to provision. Please take note... I/we are American citizens and have every right to come home and be repatriated to our homeland and cannot be refused entrance by a local decree or pitchfork wielding local inhabitants. America is one single country, not.... 50 or more individual countries when it comes to immigration and interstate transportation issues/laws.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> It's very important that accurate information is made available to everyone online and on this forum regarding our ability to not only sail into the Chesapeake, but also make a stop and go ashore to re-provision.


What is so important about acquiring information that will be a month to a month and a half out of date when you will actually set sail? 
Have you even looked at the pilot charts to figure out when you have the best weather for the trip? Perhaps sailing a 62' boat you are not concerned, but those sailing smaller vessels may not be quite so uncaring about cold fronts and the like. 
I sincerely hope they are considering taking sailing advice from those who have actually made that trip before.


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## JamesLD (Jul 16, 2019)

Here is today's covid-19 data for Maryland:










Increase of 726 cases and 35 addtional deaths in Maryland in the last 24 hours. We are experiencing these number even with a stay-at-home order enforced for the last 12 days.

Bottom line is that "recreactional" boating is currently banned in Maryland. Essential boating is allowed. Anyone who currently does recreational boating under the guise of essential boating is just downright selfish and is not only putting themselves at risk but more importantly others at risk.

Jim


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

capta said:


> What is so important about acquiring information that will be a month to a month and a half out of date when you will actually set sail?
> Have you even looked at the pilot charts to figure out when you have the best weather for the trip? Perhaps sailing a 62' boat you are not concerned, but those sailing smaller vessels may not be quite so uncaring about cold fronts and the like.
> I sincerely hope they are considering taking sailing advice from those who have actually made that trip before.


Yes, the trip is well planned and we will have accurate sat weather forecasting along the way so that I can rejoin my family ASAP in caring for those presently suffering from the Covid-19 virus.... unlike some folks who prefer to complain from the relative safety of remote locations.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> REALLY? I thought you were better than this. Show a little respect to those who want to listen to the scientists.


Clearly you misinterpret my point. Those listening to the scientists are not hysterical. The scientists says to social distance, which can and is being done, without exclusively staying indoors. Absolutely no State is requiring zero outdoor exercise, for example. Absolutely, no scientist is saying it's dangerous to transit a waterway, with a boat being taken home.

On the other hand, the hysterical think no license plate from another state should be inside their borders. Literally, cars with foreign plates are being viewed as extraordinary vectors for the virus. That's hysterical. As I said elsewhere, many of the NY plates in RI have been here far more than 14 days now, but are still viewed with hysteria.

Specifically in the context I posted above, there are those that think transiting through MD waters should not be done. Why, because it will spread disease? If so, that's hysterical. I made perfectly clear, in the same post, that MD was welcome to restrict access to shore.

Ironically, in all walks of life and in all social issues, extremism works against itself. When the arguments become irrational, it convinces others to ignore the validity of the truth. The actual science.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capta said:


> Perhaps it is more about those who may be called on to rescue those aboard or tow said vessel, should complications arise?......


That's a fair, rational counterpoint. However, those odds for a cruiser heading home are remarkably low. I'm sure there are vastly more car accidents going to the grocery stores, let alone all the essential businesses. I don't personally think it's sufficient to attempt to close a waterway to transients, which can only be done by the Federal Government.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> Yes, the trip is well planned and we will have accurate sat weather forecasting along the way, so that I can rejoin my family ASAP in caring for those presently suffering from the Covid-19 virus.... unlike some folks who prefer to cower and complain in remote locations.


Exactly how do you think I could help anybody in the states by contracting C-19? I'm not a medical professional and I am in as high risk group as it is possible to be.
I'm doing a lot more good by staying well and out of an already overtaxed system. I don't own a home, (nobody's renting these days are they?) and I hear most marinas are closed, I don't have a vehicle and I don't have any family that would like to see me die *alone* in a hospital because even on a respirator my chances of survival are near zero. So, you are correct, I'll "cower" down here just trying to survive as I have nothing to contribute up in the states, unless folks want a boat ride. 
If you are so all fired interested in helping out, why haven't you volunteered to help where you are, while you are stuck there, where they could surely use the help?
From your posts, it seems you are like a drowning man reaching out for anything to save you, as regards to what you will do after you leave Guadeloupe, so I'm a bit skeptical about this "well planned" trip you envision. It certainly wasn't ASAP a couple of weeks ago. Weren't you talking about a space in Trinidad for the summer just last week? What changed?
Please keep posting as you are a continual source of bizarre humor in these particularly difficult times.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

At the wire, its Self Righteous by a nose over Indignant.
As predicted, Civility and Sanity trailed the field


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> Yes, the trip is well planned and we will have accurate sat weather forecasting along the way so that I can rejoin my family ASAP in caring for those presently suffering from the Covid-19 virus.... unlike some folks who prefer to complain from the relative safety of remote locations.


Your story continues to change. Your wife's an ER nurse yet your published website says she lives on the boat with you 6 months of the year

You violate the terms of service by using your business name as your screename and additionally you use you business website picture as your 
Avatar. Someone as astute as you can't be by accident.

Someone who brazenly violates the terms of service brings into question your willingness to follow the rules of others.

You continue to duck this without comment.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

If you have a co-morbidity your chance of survival once on a respirator are something less than 25% and it's not a lot better if you are younger than 60 with no contributing conditions.

I'm still trying to find out what the regulations are at Oceanside Harbor. The only thing in print is the parking is closed which would mean walking a mile if I could find parking outside the marina. Emailed them to see if I could ride my bike to the boat and got a generic 'no answer' that didn't give any guidance and wait for further information. From a liveaboard, can still park in front of our gate but cannot take the boat out of it's slip or use a paddle board or any other water craft. They have not shut off walking or biking the perimeter road or sidewalks which is interesting as there is typically a lot of people without boats that hang out around the marina to exercise. 

Closing off all the parks and boating use just doesn't make sense. On the one hand they say get exercise but maintain social distancing while they close off most of the areas that you can exercise so you are forced into congestion. There is a bluff behind the beach with a road and walkway along it and another walkway on the beach level. They've closed off the lower walkway so everybody now has to walk on the upper one. It's not as crowded as Manhattan but there is no way to maintain a 6' distance with the two way traffic. We thought we'd found a solution in a RR right of way paralleling the beach walk but 4 blocks inland. In a mile and a half walk would see maybe 10 people and its plenty wide enough to maintain 6' distance when passing. We go down today after a week of rain to walk the RR and see they've got it taped off with no access signs. We were forced to walk on the city streets dodging out into traffic every 1/2 block or more often to maintain separation. We may be safe from COVID but get run down on the street. 

If I needed to move a boat from one area to another would just do it in one sail without stopping anywhere in between. That would easily be done by almost any boat without worrying about whatever regulations are in effect. If there is a quarantine in effect at the destination do it on the boat. If we are talking a 50' cat should be plenty of room for a crew of four to take the confinement in ease. On a smaller boat probably wouldn't have as many crew but still a good chance to get well acquainted.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Hopefully the restrictions currently in Maryland will be lifted by the time the SD boats get up in this area. 
We have friends waiting in NC. 

Should any boats come ashore In Maryland , or even Virginia, I Would hope a 14 day quarantine or test is done for our safety.Once you land ashore you are subject to the state laws and no longer in the Federal Jurisdiction. I understand many may be US citizens, however many will also be Canadian citizens. Actually wherever you finally land should require the same. 

Since you are traveling from foreign countries which have the virus, that should at least be the minimum requirement. Even the cruise ship passengers were tested and quarantined for 14 days.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Anyone not inside before the gates were bolted should be considered foreign and not welcome until...some later date.
All foreigners must wear a scarlet hexagram
Venturing beyond the pales has consequences


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> Anyone not inside before the gates were bolted should be considered foreign and not welcome until...some later date.
> All foreigners must wear a scarlet hexagram
> Venturing beyond the pales has consequences


Whatever....we don't need any more Typhoid Marys


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I’ve spent 5 weeks on my boat in Dominica, 3 in lock down, if I trip home I’ll have yet another 2 weeks in quarantine.

So my Wife and I will have 5 weeks in quarantine. MINIMUM. Before we set foot ashore. 

That’s if we leave today.

If we leave early June we will have another 8 weeks of quarintine or 13 total.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

hpeer said:


> I've spent 5 weeks on my boat in Dominica, 3 in lock down, if I trip home I'll have yet another 2 weeks in quarantine.
> 
> So my Wife and I will have 5 weeks in quarantine. MINIMUM. Before we set foot ashore.
> 
> ...


That will never be enough to satisfy the paranoid or truly hysterical back in the US and Canada wielding their pitchforks and torches behind their makeshift baracades.

I've also been in quarantine for the same period of time just thirty miles away from you, and even though I'm considered to be an essential worker in the healthcare field who's attempting to return home to work as a registered nurse.... 'makes no difference, stay away! stranger! danger! Ridicule and destroy!

It's disappointing to say the least that these same individuals who so freely ridicule and libel others online, don't realize that if and when they get sick, it's people like my wife, daughter, brother, nephew, son-in-law, dozens of very close friends and I, will be the ones who nurse them back to health in a non-judgemental way.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> That will never be enough to satisfy the paranoid or truly hysterical back in the US and Canada wielding their pitchforks and torches behind their makeshift baracades.
> 
> I've also been in quarantine for the same period of time just thirty miles away from you, and even though I'm considered to be an essential worker in the healthcare field who's attempting to return home to work as a registered nurse.... 'makes no difference, stay away, stranger danger! Ridicule and destroy!
> 
> It's disappointing to say the least that these same individuals who so freely ridicule and libel others online, don't realize that if and when they get sick, it's people like my wife, daughter, brother, nephew, son-in-law, dozens of very close friends and I, will be the ones who nurse them back to health in a non-judgemental way.


I am grateful for everyone, including your family members, who have stayed in our country to provide much needed essential services to our fellow countrymen. I hope you find a way to get home so you can rejoin them instead of complaining from the relative safety of your remote location.

Oh wait...



TheCruisingExperience said:


> .... unlike some folks who prefer to complain from the relative safety of remote locations.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

Of course then... there’s also those folks who seen too obtuse to understand the concept of getting trapped when borders everywhere in the world close behind them within 96 hours, leaving a fellow cruiser and US citizen stuck 1600 miles from home. Possibly, it’s because they’ve never had the courage to venture out beyond the entrance of their own bay?

Truly disappointing...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> leaving a fellow cruiser and US citizen stuck 1600 miles from home.
> 
> Truly disappointing...


You've got a 62' Oyster with all the toys and you feel "*stuck* 1600 miles from home"?
Now that *is* Truly disappointing...
Even on my little old 50 footer, at 73, without most of the toys, I'd have no problem making the voyage tomorrow, if need be.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

capta said:


> You've got a 62' Oyster with all the toys and you feel "*stuck* 1600 miles from home"?
> Now that *is* Truly disappointing...
> Even on my little old 50 footer, at 73, without most of the toys, I'd have no problem making the voyage tomorrow, if need be.


Aren't you the one who's afraid and panicked over a dog walking on the beach? I'm new here, maybe I have you mixed up with another member... anyway, I'm waiting to take on a crew member in the USVI to satisfy my insurance company prior to the voyage home.

So yes... I'm stuck here in Guadeloupe until I satisfy the insurance company requirements.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Cruisers welcome........mercenaries or Typhoid Marys....not. I welcome all. 
Come clean....your not a cruiser. You make your living outside the US you don't cruise here

The true cruisers are coming home and continuing their cruising life. I admire that. I hope they find it more easy to move freely as the restrictions come off all of us...at the right time. They won't mind the quarantine restrictions and will find it easy to do as many headed up the ICW are doing it now. They understand, this is the new US under Covid. Remember the new Grenada under Covid is to shut you out. You were worried that they were going to make you move a few weeks ago.

And of course we want you to quarantine , for our safety. We expect no less from you than from ourselves right now. No one is making you do anything unusual in these current times. It doesn't mean we have pitchforks, we rightly want to protect the whole population. That's why most of us continue to stay in Place. This is the new US...the new US under the coronavirus.

The reason your coming back is because your business is dried up , not to help us. No one is chartering right now. You could have come immediately to help us like Outbound had that been your mission. Put the boat on the hard., like he did, Hop a plane. You'd be back helping us within a week, except for the quarantine.

If you are a US citizen you'd be welcome home and oh yes....14 days quarantined. 
You could go to Peurto RICO...ooops 14 day quarantine. 
USVI......oops 14 day quarantine
Having to undergo quarantine should be expected, everyone else does. 
Time served where you are is not the US so it doesn't count
Where you are now.....quarantined indefinitely not 14 days because they don't want you. You are a US citizen

Isn't this you? So you are coming home because this currently and for the near future probably doesn't exist. No one wants their living pulled out from under them, but this virus has done that to many already here so no one sheds a tear. It's great you have the RN thing to fall back on, if you truly do. Come back and help, because we need you and you need to eat. By the time you finally get back we will have solved the medical issues...they are happening now. If you really need to come back to help...come back now.

Honesty and helping others, whether you are an RN or the truck driver moving the food, the cashier making sure we all get to buy the food, the janitor who keeps the store or hospital clean, first responders, the CG, we need everybody and one isn't more important than the other because without all doing their jobs , the system grinds to a halt. Honesty and helping others really is an admirable trait.

So isn't this you? If not I apologize. 
Www.thecruising experience.com

BTW using you screen name and company moniker are violations of the Terms of Service as they could be subtle ways to advertise for business.

We have others in similar businesses posting here, but not under their company logo.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> Aren't you the one who's afraid and panicked over a dog walking on the beach? I'm new here, maybe I have you mixed up with another member... anyway, I'm waiting to take on a crew member in the USVI to satisfy my insurance company prior to the voyage home.
> 
> So yes... I'm stuck here in Guadeloupe until I satisfy the insurance company requirements.


Capt and I disagree on some things, but This response to a responsible member of the forum is indicative how you've treated others here and why you are meeting resistance. History repeating itself.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> Cruisers welcome........mercenaries or Typhoid Marys....not. I welcome all.
> Come clean....your not a cruiser. You make your living outside the US you don't cruise here
> 
> The true cruisers are coming home and continuing their cruising life. I admire that. I hope they find it more easy to move freely as the restrictions come off all of us...at the right time. They won't mind the quarantine restrictions and will find it easy to do as many headed up the ICW are doing it now. They understand, this is the new US under Covid. Remember the new Grenada under Covid is to shut you out. You were worried that they were going to make you move a few weeks ago.
> ...


You're mistaken, big time.

I don't own a charter company... never have owned one. I did start up a lifestyle consulting firm three weeks ago; Mark who's one of the moderators on this forum and a longtime friend is well-aware, but never a charter service. My wife and I have been registered nurses for over 40 years, she works in the operating room and has recently been transferred to ICU to assist with Covid-19 patients, and I work several months of the year in a locked crisis psychiatric unit as a charge nurse.

You sir, should consider..... well, I shouldn't say.

Have a nice day.


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## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

chef2sail said:


> Your story continues to change. Your wife's an ER nurse yet your published website says she lives on the boat with you 6 months of the year
> 
> You violate the terms of service by using your business name as your screename and additionally you use you business website picture as your
> Avatar. Someone as astute as you can't be by accident.
> ...


Not that it's any of your business, but...
His wife IS a registered nurse just as he is and she is currently working in the ER and ICU in Boston caring for CV19 patients. But about a week prior to him getting trapped in the Caribbean, she was with him on the boat. They both have been nurses and well respected in their field so they admittedly do have a very sweet deal in that they are allowed to live aboard one of their 2 sailboats for months at a time and then return and work their a$$ off for awhile to restock the cruisiing kitty before setting out again. Yeah, I'm envious too but it's a situation they've both earned over many years of hard work and saving and wise investing. Nobody bought them a boat, they've earned it and will soon both be retired and sailing full time.

Whether or not his screen name and avatar violate the terms of this forum is an issue that's between him and the mods. Once again, it's none of yours or my business and your frequent posts calling attention to this are getting really old. "Rat him out" to the mods if you wish, but PLEASE stop going on about it to the rest of us.

As for his comments regarding sailing through the Chesapeake, it's on his way home and he has every right to take that route, and any edicts governors make regarding what goes on in their state doesn't really apply, but of course the US Constitution still does. Also, since he's been in complete, solitary quarantine for a month already and it's looking like it''ll be another month before he arrives off the east coast of the US after being in isolation for another 8 or 9 days while underway, he'll be about the least likely person any of us know to be CV19 contagious. Plus, as he'll be aboard his boat except for when he takes on fuel or goes grocery shopping (just like you and me) or has groceries delivered to the fuel dock, he'll naturally be very socially isolated during his transit of the Chesapeake, rarely being within half a mile of anyone. So, it seems to me that he's not a problem you need to concern yourself with if you really are concerned with the reality of dealing with this virus rather than just trying to troll up some controversy.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> Aren't you the one who's afraid and panicked over a dog walking on the beach? .


I am neither panicked nor afraid. Nor am I afraid that I am incapable of a measly 1600 mile voyage w/o causing so much damage to my vessel that I'd let my insurance company dictate how, with whom and when I sail.


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## JamesLD (Jul 16, 2019)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> You're mistaken, big time.
> 
> I don't own a charter company... never have owned one. I did start up a lifestyle consulting firm three weeks ago; Mark who's one of the moderators on this forum and a longtime friend is well-aware, but never a charter service. My wife and I have been registered nurses for over 40 years, she works in the operating room and has recently been transferred to ICU to assist with Covid-19 patients, and I work several months of the year in a locked crisis psychiatric unit as a charge nurse.
> 
> ...


Just curious, why is this not a charter? Aren't people hiring your boat and your skills as a captain?

Jim


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

JamesLD said:


> Just curious, why is this not a charter? Aren't people hiring your boat and your skills as a captain?
> 
> Jim


No.


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## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

chef2sail said:


> Cruisers welcome........mercenaries or Typhoid Marys....not. I welcome all.
> Come clean....your not a cruiser. You make your living outside the US you don't cruise here
> 
> The true cruisers are coming home and continuing their cruising life. I admire that. I hope they find it more easy to move freely as the restrictions come off all of us...at the right time. They won't mind the quarantine restrictions and will find it easy to do as many headed up the ICW are doing it now. They understand, this is the new US under Covid. Remember the new Grenada under Covid is to shut you out. You were worried that they were going to make you move a few weeks ago.
> ...


It's a very good thing you chose to be a chef and not a detective because you couldn't have it more wrong if you tried. I've sailed with him and know others who have too and other than sharing grocery expenses at the checkout counter of the grocery store, it didn't cost a nickel. He's cruised all through the Med and had numerous guests aboard, but never for hire. The same on his new to him boat in the Caribbean this last winter. I know of 2 people ( I was one, but unfortunately unable to join him due to my wife's illness) he invited to come join him there aboard his boat and there was no talk of chartering him or his boat. He IS a cruiser and has never chartered so YOU obviously owe him a big apology and I hope you learn a lesson from this about attacking other posters before you know the whole story. Seriously, stop trying to attack him and stick to commenting about CV19 and its effect on cruisers trying to get back to the US.

He IS stuck down there for the time being. He's never claimed he's not in pleasant surroundings or his boat isn't luxurious (it is) but it's not where he wants to be during this pandemic. His insurance company won't allow him to singlehand it home and there are no flights to get crew there to join him. Besides, a 62' boat is quite a lot for anyone to singlehand offshore even if all goes well but could become quite difficult if he got into some bad weather or something broke or he was injured or became ill. If he could be home caring for CV 19 patients he would be and he's pretty frustrated that he's not doing that and he's not with his wife either.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

What is all this negativity. The guy needs to get his boat back to the NE just like a lot of other people currently outside the country. Hurricane season is a little over a month away and I doubt if anyone is going to hide out in Venezuela. Doesn't matter whether he runs a charter business or flips hamburgers. 

It's been my experience that insurance companies want a minimum of three crew for an open ocean passage. I hate to be dictated to by an insurance company but if you want to be insured you've got to play their game. With a high value boat think it would be stupid to sail without insurance unless you're truly rich and can laugh at the loss of a couple hundred thousand $ boat. Capta must be a fat cat to advise forgetting insurance.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

capta said:


> I am neither panicked nor afraid. Nor am I afraid that I am incapable of a measly 1600 mile voyage w/o causing so much damage to my vessel that I'd let my insurance company dictate how, with whom and when I sail.


 I'll wait for the insurance authorization and crew member to arrive, I don't have my wife onboard like you do at the present time... she's busy working in Boston caring for those Covid-19 patients you're so afraid of.

Signing off now, tired of this ridiculous back and forth with you.

Good night


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

jtsailjt said:


> It's a very good thing you chose to be a chef and not a detective because you couldn't have it more wrong if you tried. I've sailed with him and know others who have too and other than sharing grocery expenses at the checkout counter of the grocery store, it didn't cost a nickel. He's cruised all through the Med and had numerous guests aboard, but never for hire. The same on his new to him boat in the Caribbean this last winter. I know of 2 people ( I was one, but unfortunately unable to join him due to my wife's illness) he invited to come join him there aboard his boat and there was no talk of chartering him or his boat. He IS a cruiser and has never chartered so YOU obviously owe him a big apology and I hope you learn a lesson from this about attacking other posters before you know the whole story. Seriously, stop trying to attack him and stick to commenting about CV19 and its effect on cruisers trying to get back to the US.
> 
> He IS stuck down there for the time being. He's never claimed he's not in pleasant surroundings or his boat isn't luxurious (it is) but it's not where he wants to be during this pandemic. His insurance company won't allow him to singlehand it home and there are no flights to get crew there to join him. Besides, a 62' boat is quite a lot for anyone to singlehand offshore even if all goes well but could become quite difficult if he got into some bad weather or something broke or he was injured or became ill. If he could be home caring for CV 19 patients he would be and he's pretty frustrated that he's not doing that and he's not with his wife either.


Not a Chef. Though an admirable job haven't done that for 35 years. 
Did he break the rules of SN, yes he broke the TOS . 
He was deceptive and used his Screename and avatar to further his business
So how do you trust anything he says when he joins with deception.

I don't buy he doesn't have a business . It looks like a duck...it flies like one...maybe it's not charter because there are laws, rules about that, oh yeah it's a consulting business. Really I don't care what he does.

As far a cruisers are concerned, 3 boats of my friends are off Orient NC right now trying to get back north to N England . They high tailed it out of the Carribean at the first sign of this. They have a choice of working their way through the Chessie then down the Delaware or going offshore right to Cape May quickly. If they come up the Chessie there are restrictions on landing. They involve quarantine in MD where I live. They are the Givernors Exec Order . Not my rules. You cannot land according to the Maryland DNR to my cruising friends. That involves a quarantine and they will not tolerate less. They can however get fuel and push off. If the come to the Chessie I may have to take my dinghy and shuttle supplies to him in Annapolis Harbor. North Carolina will not let them land .

I certainly feel for the plight many cruisers are in. They chose that lifestyle. Some took the risk, sold their houses and live with the fact they could get sick in a remote place or get cut off from family. They never expected this .
They understand that we on land have similar restrictions. It's for safety.

My wife is also an RN in a large city hospital living with the monster every day at work. Like I said she is my hero for what she is doing. I equally appreciate the truck drivers supplying the stores and the cashiers in them. 
Right now that's the only place Marylanders can really go that's essential travel. We can't use our boats recreationally.

I won't apologize for his deceptive ness breaking the rules. I hope he finds his way home without incident. I'm sure his family misses him. I also hope many of my cruising friends find a safe spot to hunker down in. If I can help you let me know. All I ask is that you practice the same rules as we do and follow the same laws to insure all of our safety, whether you believe in them or not.

Enough of this crap

Stay safe and keep Maryland safe.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TheCruisingExperience said:


> she's busy working in Boston caring for those Covid-19 patients ./QUOTE]
> How many times are you going to say that in a single thread? It's almost as though you are trying to convince yourself, not us.
> You're damn right I'm afraid of "those Covid-19 patients". If you aren't, then you are a bigger fool than you make yourself out to be.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

This thread will be closed for a while while the moderators review the content.


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