# Louis Vuitton Cup - Race 1



## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

The first AC72 race but it was a one boat race...


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

This race is a joke...I'm not watching it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm actually a huge - new - fan of the AC and, especially, the new boats. But this "race" sucked with just ETNZ running.

The problem is that Ellison's vision of making this thing a true spectator sport was right on the money...but the long-standing political back-rooming that has always been a part of the AC is killing that vision.

Hopefully we'll see more boats soon.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

*Re: Louis Vuitton Cup - RR 1 Race 2*

Still a one boat race...





I miss the spinnakers & watching the sails on the tacks. I can relate to that. While the speeds achieved are amazing, I'm still having a hard time getting into it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

It's weird. I actually don't miss _any_ of that.

Foiling, 72', winged catamarans that can bust 40 knots are the craziest, coolest things I've ever seen on the water. When we actually get a couple of them going head-to-head it's going to be a freakin' spectacle.

It's really fun to be in on this kind of bleeding edge that will change the sport forever.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> It's weird. I actually don't miss _any_ of that.
> 
> Foiling, 72', winged catamarans that can bust 40 knots are the craziest, coolest things I've ever seen on the water. When we actually get a couple of them going head-to-head it's going to be a freakin' spectacle.
> 
> It's really fun to be in on this kind of bleeding edge that will change the sport forever.


"Will" change? It *has* changed it. I get that there are three people/franchizes who can afford to build, crew, and race these highly technical boats, but couldn't they do it for a different race? Make up their own race. Leave the America's Cup race close to what it used to be so that more than three boats can afford to participate.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

DRFerron said:


> "Will" change? It *has* changed it. I get that there are three people/franchizes who can afford to build, crew, and race these highly technical boats, but couldn't they do it for a different race? Make up their own race. Leave the America's Cup race close to what it used to be so that more than three boats can afford to participate.


I think the AC absolutely needed something radical to stay anywhere near relevant. It's always been about finding and testing new technologies and ideas as much as sailing. These AC72s are prototypes, which is why they're so expensive. But they are prototyping something that has turned the sailing world on it head and made it, finally, an extreme sport with high stakes that is fun to watch.

I say good on 'em. The ACWS 45s will be for the masses.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

My first job out of college many years ago was in international event promotion in the windsurfing industry. Everything was about bringing the events to the spectators.
Some of the sailing community may not like it but I think they are on the right track bringing the events close to shore w/ high speed boats. Lots of action. Spectators have short attention spans. Sailing is unknown to the average citizen. People want to watch Nascar and WWE. W/o spectators there are no sponsors and no sponsors means no money. Bring it on!
Jim


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

The technology they are developing is all in the multi-hull world. Will more people gravitate towards multi-hulls because of this? Maybe in the race world but I have my doubts about this AC having much impact for the rest of sailing. 

These boats go so fast you need a well trained, professional crew. Can you imagine the weekend sailor with even a watered down version of these ACs? I see lots of flotsam in the future if that happens.

This Cup is a billionaire boy's game and there aren't enough of them that want to spend their money competing in the Cup to get the sailing world really involved. And with these boats now on the razor's edge, will the next Cup see rule changes so it won't be so dangerous? With them having already made changes, I suspect so.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

The Americas cup always has been a multi-millionaires race.Giant uber expensive cutting edge yachts are nothing newA Brush with Sail: More On 'Reliance'.Larry Elisons, bringing the cup to the masses was a sales pitch for the San Francisco board of supervisers.Almost everything they agreed to was negated by a back-room deal with Board chairman David Chui.The shananigans began long before the first boat hit the water.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

The current AC is caught in a chicken egg situation. While Ellison hoped to attract a dozen or more boats to the LVC, corporate sponsors were put off by the 10 to 15 million dollar per boat ante. The corporate sponsors won't go all in because the AC isn't a big enough draw to justify the investment. Add a team or two who don't like the non traditional direction of the boat design and you have this year's AC. 

Personally, i'm a big cat fan! The ACs, 45 and 72 are kick ass boats designed to make the the boat handling as big a challenge as strategy. Even if one boat gets a horizon job over another, nothing is assured. Say what you will about tradition, these boats are made to attract a crowd and develop the AC into a TV watchable sport. If Ellison is successful, the corporate sponsorship money will flow.

Unfortunately, we have to suffer through the infancy. Which means not many boats racing.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

They could bring things back down to earth by banning crash helmets on sailboats.  I can't imagine anyone being willing to sail one of those things without one. Can you imagine crashing & burning at 40 knots and dropping headfirst from the high side? 

If it, or a form of it, gets some traction it will be a NASCAR version of sailboat racing.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

They're trying to make sailing into NASCAR where people live to see "the big one"....and an Olympic medalist with a young family has paid the price. No thanks...this race stinks and I'm happy to see it fade away. We have the Volvo to look forward to.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

night0wl said:


> They're trying to make sailing into NASCAR where people live to see "the big one"....and an Olympic medalist with a young family has paid the price. No thanks...this race stinks and I'm happy to see it fade away. We have the Volvo to look forward to.


IMO, they are using innovation to move the sport forward. That people will watch Golf shows there is a market that could be developed to offset the incredibly high costs.

True Nacar fans are not watching to see "The big one." They are routing for their favorite driver or drivers. No different than any other sport. The "watching to see the big one" is part of the sterotype put down put on Nascar fans by those who don't understand the sport. Because nascar fans want their drivers to win, they don't want them to crash. Any crash negatively affects the outcome of the race.

Lastly, while the loss of Andrew Simpson is tragic, it shouldn't be reason to cancel or even change this event. If death of crew members is going to be the yardstick by which these events are measured as reason for moving forward the Volvo would have been abandoned years ago.

Sailboat racing carries with it, risk. Simpson isn't the first person to lose his life racing sailboats this year. Not even the first to lose his life in California. While it is tragic, taking a page from Nascar, we learn from it, make necessary safety improvments and move forward. We don't take lightly what happened.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

night0wl said:


> They're trying to make sailing into NASCAR where people live to see "the big one"....and an Olympic medalist with a young family has paid the price. No thanks...this race stinks and I'm happy to see it fade away. We have the Volvo to look forward to.


Don't you remember the last VOR where Abu-Dhabi just about broke apart and sank in the southern ocean? Not to mention all the other broken boats. That race, overall, is far more risky than what these AC guys are doing...with it's own share of fatalities.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

TJC45 said:


> Lastly, while the loss of Andrew Simpson is tragic, it shouldn't be reason to cancel or even change this event. If death of crew members is going to be the yardstick by which these events are measured as reason for moving forward the Volvo would have been abandoned years ago.


Absolutely it is. The boats aren't safe. I think they recommended supplemental air and body armor to sail 'em. Billionaires lied, and the people of San Fran will be left holding the bag on this debacle. Good riddens...


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Truly Amazing! Hard to relate to but,.....Wow! Will "we" be using wing sails as head sails before I am forced to retire? Carbon boats! $$$. The admiral and I have one! Its an 18' racing canoe. We can't make it do what the pros can but we enjoy feeling the performance of the cutting edge equipment in our competitive outlet. Carbon paddles that weigh less than 8 oz. Nice. Anything (affordable) to make life a little easier for this aging body.

Will I own similar sailing gear? Probably not. Is it fun to watch those who do. YES! IT IS!

I have to wonder what steps are being taken to clean the Bay of debris? Hitting a partially submerged RR tie with a foil, at speed, would be a "problem".

A pod of migrating whales would add an interesting dimension to the race, too.

Wondering how the rules deal with stuff like that?

Down.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I'd love to see the next AC be done in lasers, one design and you don't know which one you'll get. 
They should make it about the sailing/sailor's - not the boat.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chucklesR said:


> I'd love to see the next AC be done in lasers, one design and you don't know which one you'll get.
> They should make it about the sailing/sailor's - not the boat.


I see this kind of statement a lot. But, c'mon, Chuckles - did you see the race between NZ and LR? That was all about sailing and sailors - the boat was completely secondary. NZ seriously hurt LR when they boxed them in at the start - decades-old match racing strategy. Then they nailed the door shut when they were able to gibe on the foils and LR wasn't.

If it was purely about the boats, this wouldn't have been the blowout it was. So I don't think these kinds of statements hold water.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chucklesR said:


> I'd love to see the next AC be done in lasers, one design and you don't know which one you'll get.
> They should make it about the sailing/sailor's - not the boat.


Yeah, and just imagine the new heights the Daytona 500 could be taken to by BASSCAR, if they ran it in identical Smart Cars, instead... 

If one wanted to consign the America's Cup to irrelevance forever, that might be a surefire way to do it, alright...

That's pretty much what's done every four years in the Olympics, after all...

anyone have NBC's ratings for their coverage of yachting last summer from the London Games? Hell, I'll bet they lagged behind those for Rhythmic Gymnastics...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Don't you remember the last VOR where Abu-Dhabi just about broke apart and sank in the southern ocean? Not to mention all the other broken boats. That race, overall, is far more risky than what these AC guys are doing...with it's own share of fatalities.


The VOR has gone way too far as well.

Whatever happened to seamanship? "They're racing" has become an excuse for a complete lack of it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

chucklesR said:


> I'd love to see the next AC be done in lasers, one design and you don't know which one you'll get.
> They should make it about the sailing/sailor's - not the boat.


That's called the Olympics

The Americas Cup is totally different animal. It is about design and always has been. Cutting edge technologies within a basic framework or formulas. Imagination and innovation have always been the hallmark of AC, from the first bulb keel to the out of the box 40 mph wings of today.

There will never be any advances in sailing or technologies by sailing around in equal garbage scows picked when you show up for the race. We can save that for 1 design races, college racing and the Olympics to figure out who is the best sailor. The AC was never for that.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Yeah, but nothing like a sailor who has the "less technical" boat and theoretically slower, and still pulls out victory... Now THAT is impressive. - Dennis, you set the bar really high.

AC has always been as much about the boat design, as it is about the skippers/crew and chess game on and off the course. It was always the package deal. I'd rather they not change that.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Then there is this: IMO there is a prejudice against cats. At least in some corners of the racing world. I should say all corners of the racing world and some corners of the cruising world. Why this is I don't know, but it is. Cats get no respect. On the water or off.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Are there any ratings or attendance stats yet?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Because they flip upside down and stay that way.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I don't HATE cats... I just prefer dogs. Besides I'm allergic to cats.
Shameless plug (and I am not selling anything): http://www.woodlandbrittanys.com/


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Sailing a small beach cat you get a lot of practice yelling "Starboard!" to monohulls crossing your course. 

When i first started sailing cats I thought these sailors didn't know the rules of the road. I later found out that i was sailing the Rodney Dangerfield of boats. 

Mostly it was just an inconvenience but at times some of these skippers and crew took things to unacceptable levels. Like screaming obscenities for us to stay out of the way. 

WE could easily get even with them, though usually we didn't. But an occasional sail up along side to ask if they were dragging an anchor or something was sometimes fun. Then there was the day one of the local high roller yachtie's forced me off starboard and called me an ******* while he and others were in an unofficial race on an unmarked course. That after i gave him way, though he was on port tack. If you are racing and i know you are racing i'll stay well clear! But this was just ridiculous! I came about, told my crew we were going to sail under him and force him up off his course. And that's exactly what we did. he tacked away and so did we. Taking no more than a couple minutes for us to reposition and do it again. We bored of this quickly and tired of the screaming coming from the big slow boat. Plus it's no fun to sail a Hobie so slow. We veered away and went for their destination, the unoffical windward mark. There we hove to, popped a cold one, and waited. Making sure we were in the way! They cursed us and we yelled back "what took you so long to get here!" Seriously, if you are going to call me an ******* the least i can do is live up to the name! And, give you what you deserve!!!! After all five or six boats had rounded and were now on a beam reach we sheeted in and ran them down passing them all to leeward just to show we could out run them. And. it gave us some practice as we went for the mark to turn for the run. We instead of turning for the run we tacked away. I gave them a captain's salute but they were too far off to see it. 

Then there was the day we got even with the stinkpots, but that's another story!!!!


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

SloopJonB said:


> They could bring things back down to earth by banning crash helmets on sailboats.  I can't imagine anyone being willing to sail one of those things without one. Can you imagine crashing & burning at 40 knots and dropping headfirst from the high side?
> 
> If it, or a form of it, gets some traction it will be a NASCAR version of sailboat racing.


There is an easier way - make a parachute anchor out the back mandatory equipment.

Why do you want to bring it down to earth? What is the point of watching the cutting edge of fast sailing brought down to sedentary humdrum rubbish.

Sorry, I don't get it.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Don't you remember the last VOR where Abu-Dhabi just about broke apart and sank in the southern ocean? Not to mention all the other broken boats. That race, overall, is far more risky than what these AC guys are doing...with it's own share of fatalities.


Agreed, when you take the Whitbread (forerunner to VOR) and the VOR, and apply the same logic around safety, the VOR would be long dead and gone.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

chucklesR said:


> I'd love to see the next AC be done in lasers, one design and you don't know which one you'll get.
> They should make it about the sailing/sailor's - not the boat.


Yep, NASCAR with unmodified VW Beatles - give me a break.

You can go down to your local pond and watch that every weekend - at least I know I can.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Omatako said:


> You can go down to your local pond and watch that every weekend - at least I know I can.


yeah pretty much except I can step up to the cockpit and watch OD's out of SDYC everyday, fun to watch for a second or two

From my office I look down at USA11 and I use to think that's the way AC should still be, Then one evening coming in, both USA11 ( a tourist charter ) and America ( a whale watching charters ) where coming in.

So there I was looking at a replica of the 1851 RYS winner and the 1995 IACC cup Challenger and having watch the sea trials of the AC72 a month prior I thought, yeah, OK, what's the 2095 cup boat gonna look like or will it even touch the water.

I hope they reboot someday. I'd love to see some 136' schooner races plus, I think the 2095 holographic AC105's will be a bust.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Omatako said:


> Yep, NASCAR with unmodified VW Beatles - give me a break...


Except NASCAR is actually safer today than when it ran with less capable equipment in the past.

We're never going to reconcile those that are juiced by these foiling cats and those that don't really care and would be happy watching the 12 meters. No point trying.

The separate argument over whether this particular design is appropriately safe is a separate matter. Those that defend this design have argued that opponents are all dark age, total safety zelots that only want to see 12 meter racing. It's become like political opponents, refusing to admit that most people are near the middle.

In the end, I still haven't seen evidence that these new AC boats have done much to energize the mainstream or even bring in more sailors. In the sailing community, it seems they have disenfranchised as many as they've excited.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

The comparison to NASCAR only go so far. The goal of the AC was to energize the sport. develop a TV market where corporate sponsorship could help write off the costs of participation. AC organizers even used NASCAR for comparison. 

I like the effort, but here's where it is flawed - the fans of sailboat racing aren't invested at all in the skippers or the teams. That is they really don't care. There may be a small group of hard core race fans that have all the players down, understand how it all works, but for the most part that group can be counted in the hundreds not thousands or millions. 

Most folks who are not NASCAR fans believe NASCAR is about people watching wanting to see the big one. Not even close! NASCAR fans find drivers they like and they root for them. No different than fans finding a football team or baseball team that they fully support. These fans want to see their driver do well. They don't want wrecks or caution flags to interfere. And of course they want to see good racing. 

But it all starts with caring about the driver. Without that, they are not fans. They are people just watching cars go in a circle waiting for the big one. And that's not going to marry them to the sport.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

And, to TDJ45s point, the technology clearly exists to make NASCAR go even faster, but they don't allow some of them in the name of safety. I'm only making the point that going as fast as you possibly can or living on the cutting edge of technology is not necessarily what draws a mass audience. It draws some.

Further to the point, the most identifiable US personality in the event is Ellison, who does not seem to endear himself to many.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

"NASCAR" and "The Cutting Edge of Technology" in the same statement. 

They still use carburetors fercrissakes! FYI, the last carbureted car you could buy new was sold 26 years ago.

NASCAR is about as far from technology driven as anything you will find. It is far more backward than racing for the AC in 12 Meters would be. *Everything* about NASCAR is about keeping the cars bunched up - that's why the races are 180 MPH trains.

It was a hell of a lot more fun & interesting back in the days of the moonshiners and their kids - Petty, Jarret, Johnson, Roberts et.al. running in real stock cars that actually originated (at least partly) in Detroit.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

*Ac*

It certainly was more seat of the pants racing then and enjoyable. Today's drivers like Johnson are the equals of the old timers and in better physical shape. The sport has become more technical than the old days, but no less ii interesting or exciting to its huge fan base . In the past there were only a few well funded teams and a few good drivers. Todays NASCAR has many more top level drivers which makes Johnson's run as well as Gordon's and Stewarts even more spectacular with the higher level of competition. These guys would have given the good old boys a run for their money. The driver of today is in better physical shape, more technically involved in the car. In addition the sport has evolved from a bunch of red neck beer sinking moonshiners, to a family sport. Many of the modern drivers travel with their families and kids and you see the filies together at the tracks. The sport has more female enthusiasts also. Some safety features have also developed through NASCAR also.so yes the sport has evolved and is different, but no less competitive.

Today's NASCAR is still entertaining as evidenced by its huge popularity through marketing and television coverage. I go to an average of 5 races a year and there are between 90,000 to 135,000 spectators ar each event. So it may have lost some of the original lovers, bit has more than made up for that with new fans.

Danger and injury is present in competitive sports and is weighed consciously by the participants. It's is a risk which the competitors can make a choice on their own without having over protective over restrictive do gooders interject themselves .

The AC can and will police itself I believe . If fans don't watch it it will change and evolve on its own as it always has. There no need for intervention by others people will stay away if it doesn't interest them, and that will change it.

The last 4 AC have been wildly successful commercially, and it appears this will be also. That means it is meeting the requirements of its niche of supporters which enjoy the advance technologies and cutting edge materials AC has always championed. For those who don't appreciate that type of sailing, feel free not to watch it. You don't need to call for changing it. The Olympics are every four years and they all use the same boats. That is also interesting . We don't need cookie cutter racing seriess , that's boring IMHO.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

TJC45 said:


> The comparison to NASCAR only go so far.
> 
> I like the effort, but here's where it is flawed - the fans of sailboat racing aren't invested at all in the skippers or the teams. That is they really don't care. There may be a small group of hard core race fans that have all the players down, understand how it all works, but for the most part that group can be counted in the hundreds not thousands or millions.


Yes I believe you're absolutely correct - where would NASCAR be today if, from the inception, it only raced once every 3 or 4 years and each time in a different country? They would have the same number of fans as AC, maybe less.

I'll bet that very few people on this board for example, even know how many people crew an AC72, let alone what their names are . Often the people I speak to think that Russell Coutts is helming Oracle's AC72.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I don't know the answer to that Oma.

Of course, I don't know the name of our president or even what the capital of Rome is.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Why does everybody forget about the Bay Area’s very own Paul Cayard? Paul is the CEO of Artemis Racing, which incidentally has the most American crew members. Spithill is the helmsman on Oracle 72, Coutts was helm on Oracle 5 (in the 45s). The majority of Oracle’s crewmembers are from Aus/NZ. Do I win a prize?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Eleven

Bashful
Doc
Dopey
Grumpy 
Happy
Sleepy
Sneezy
Larry
Moe
Curly
Coutts


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Eleven
> 
> Bashful
> Doc
> ...


A little unfair denigrating the Olympic Gold Medal winner and 4 time AC winner with a 16-0 record in AC races. You may not like his teaming with Ellison in this version of AC, but he is an icon in racing IMHO. But I guess it par for the course making fun of others you don't agree with.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> A little unfair denigrating the Olympic Gold Medal winner and 4 time AC winner with a 16-0 record in AC races. You may not like his teaming with Ellison in this version of AC, but he is an icon in racing IMHO. But I guess it par for the course making fun of others you don't agree with.


As far as sailing prowess goes, it doesn't get a lot better than Coutts. Just have a look here:






He is yacht racing royalty and well deserved also.

But that doesn't set him free from the title of Public Enemy No.1 in New Zealand.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You guys can take it any way you like. 

My point was that he is the only name anyone outside the most engaged actually knows. Pretty sure that was Oma's point I was replying to.

C2S, you know you're on my ignore list. I only wish SN would wipe out anyone quoting you as well. If you enjoy policing each others post, we can go back to that. OTOH, I really don't have the time. The lie you told about showing my post to the Baltimore Commander was the final straw. I suggest you put me on your ignore list instead.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

A lie unanswered can become he truth so I apologize to the others for the beginning of this

.Your true colors? Always with the personal dig Minnie. Can't help yourself can you. Absolutely not necessary or called for. Your statement is not relevant or even germane to the topic but you find it necessary to attack a me as a poster. Grow up. 

BTW be mindful of calling someone a lliar, I did show your post to the CG Commander Sector Baltimore. The reason you put me on ignore was because I had the nerve to call you out about an unsafe practice you keep stubbornly defending when you were running dark in your dinghy through a mooring field and complained about a poor scared boater in another dinghy shining a spotlight on you. Imagine some telling the gr rest pilot he e was unsafe.

Back to the thread. Coutts has certainly painted himself by throwing in with Ellison and Team Oracle. To a proudly nationalistic country like NZ he went from knighthood to Darth Vadar in a few years. It's reflective of other sports like soccer, even basketball. But at least in those sports they represent their country of origin in the World Cup Olympics.

Because for many years the AC was such a race between countries through its history its understandable. Like many sports the loyalty lies with the money and corporate sponsor which is multinational and that's been a change in the AC

Coutts is still a brilliant helmsman, tactician, and leader. To mock him with inclusion on a list with the Seven Dwarfs and the 3 Stogges is just plain ignorant and wrong. Most of us wish we could be 1/10 the racer he is.

To say no one knows others like Paul Cayard, Ian Murry and James Cahill as an example just shows a lack of knowledge of the racing side of the sport.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

SloopJonB said:


> "NASCAR" and "The Cutting Edge of Technology" in the same statement.
> 
> They still use carburetors fercrissakes! FYI, the last carbureted car you could buy new was sold 26 years ago.
> 
> ...


The engines are carburated, but the technology that goes into the cars is anything but backwards. On the safety issue alone these cars are highly advanced. A year or two ago a driver named Elliott Sadler hit a wall head on at Pocono at close to 200 miles an hour. The wall did not have a safer barrier in place. Just good ol concrete. Everyone thought the worse. Sadler climbed out of the car saying "Man that hurt! Looks my day is done. " ( with the engine sitting on the track more than 100 feet away guess so!) His day was done but he walked away from a crash that would have killed him ten years earlier. Sadler also owns the most end over end rolls title at Taledaga. Another crash he walked away from unscathed. That crash led to the advent of roof escape hatches.

The races are not about keeping the cars bunched up. The only races that create 180 MPH trains are restrictor plate races at Daytona and Taledaga. In those races the horsepower is reduced keeping the speeds under 200mph. That's as much for crowd safety as it is for driver safety. But the hp restriction allows lesser cars to keep pace with the better cars. The only other races where the cars are bunched up are Bristol and Matrinsville. Both short tracks where the racing is wheel to wheel. Bunched up means hot racing as well as hot tempers! Most of the other tracks are mile and a half tracks, unrestricted hp allowing the cars to spread out.

Lastly, i agree watching real stock cars was cool. i loved that. But the cars couldn't stand up to the evolving saftey requirements so NASCR sought a spec car. All teams must build to this spec. using a template supplied by NASCAR. Detroit, and now Japan supply engine parts, hood roof and trunk panels as well as technical assitance.

Still, in the end, Nascar is about the drivers.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> A lie unanswered can become he truth so I apologize to the others for the beginning of this
> 
> .Your true colors? Always with the personal dig Minnie. Can't help yourself can you. Absolutely not necessary or called for. Your statement is not relevant or even germane to the topic but you find it necessary to attack a me as a poster. Grow up.


Chef, the way I see it from the posts above - you were the first to throw a stone based on his humorous post that had nothing to do with you. You really need to chill on the whole MinniCrusade. Otherwise, take it FightClub and work it out. I'm happy to turn the lights on.

And showing a post from a nicknamed persona on a forum to a CG Commander? Wow.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Chef, the way I see it from the posts above - you were the first to throw a stone based on his humorous post that had nothing to do with you. You really need to chill on the whole MinniCrusade. Otherwise, take it FightClub and work it out. I'm happy to turn the lights on.
> 
> And showing a post from a nicknamed persona on a forum to a CG Commander? Wow.


Again another post having nothing to do with this thread. Calling a person a liar in a post as he did other than the sewer is a violation of terms of service. Do I see you mentioning that Steve? Mini puts me on ignore, but still attacks from there. Take you fight club thread and keep it closed. The referee is tainted.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Again another post having nothing to do with this thread. Calling a person a liar in a post as he did other than the sewer is a violation of terms of service. Do I see you mentioning that Steve?


I don't really care about what all was said where. I'm just saying_* in this thread *_you definitely appear to be the one picking the fight. Not him.



chef2sail said:


> he referee is tainted.


Yeah, I'll grant you that one.

Oh...how 'bout that Crazy Coutts.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> Coutts has certainly painted himself by throwing in with Ellison and Team Oracle. To a proudly nationalistic country like NZ he went from knighthood to Darth Vadar in a few years.


The irony of the knighthood is that he got the Knight Companion award in 2009 - he sold his country down the river in 2003.

But few people have achieved in sailing what he has - in that respect I take my hat off to him (I may put it back on if Oracle beat ETNZ in September )


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Admit it! You're still proud he's a Kiwi!

You can't really blame the guy for following the money. Pro athletes do it all the time!

But if ETNZ wins, won't it be sweet revenge!


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

SchockT said:


> Admit it! You're still proud he's a Kiwi!
> 
> You can't really blame the guy for following the money. Pro athletes do it all the time!
> 
> But if ETNZ wins, won't it be sweet revenge!


Mostly when pro athletes go where the money is nobody else really loses.

When the boys from ETNZ went to the dark side, they were going to earn not a great deal more than they had been but their country was going to lose a fortune.

As far as being proud, we have many sports people to be proud of with dozens of world class athletes competing is assorted sports around the world and from a total population half the size of the City of New York.

So whilst Coutts is a legend in his own lifetime, it's because of his newly acquired "win-at-all-costs" attitude that he's lost a lot of his shine back home.


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