# Running Lines To The Cockpit....need some advice and ideas?



## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Here is a pic of the boat as it is now, with the exception of the Vang thats attached to the mast and boom. I want to possibly make things easy on myself and run some lines to the cockpit. Currently my traveler lines, jib sheets and mainsheet are all that go to the cockpit. My mainsheet comes right over the companionway. I don't really like that as I plan on mounting instruments over the companionway and the mainsheet would wrap around them and I can just see an accidental gybe and my instruments are ripped off the boat and into the ocean. So I thought, why not route the mainsheet to one side, then maybe route the vang as well to the side. so both can be adjusted pretty easily. Then I thought, why not the main halyard back to the winch next to the companionway thats never used? That hay I can raise the sail from the cockpit. If I raise it and need to add more tension to it...no prob...grab the winch handle and give t more tension...all from the cockpit. The only thing I would think I would need is maybe rope clutches? That would secure all those lines pretty well. Does this sound reasonable? Is there any reason NOT to do these things? Also can someone point me in the right direction on how to re-route the main sheet back down the boom and down the mast to the deck? In addition to the vang that is there...I'll also have a boomkicker setup.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

The traveler mount that you have may need some modifications (read cut outs) to do this, but it isn't particularly hard. Just flip the blocks you currently have upside down, and where the cam cleat is take it off. Run the line to the gooseneck, then down to the deck.

You will probably need to add a deck organizer between about half way between the mast and the traveler to turn all the lines into the cut out in the traveler mount (those holes you cut out), then to a row of rope clutches just in front of the cabin top winch. You can run as many lines to the winch as you like, but any more than 5 gets very crowded on the winch. If you want to bring more back than that do the same thing on the other side.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

On our boat everything is led to the cockpit including reefing lines and centerboard line.

All the halyards ( main, jib, spare jib and spinaker) are lead to the mast base which has a collar to which turning blocks are attached. 
Garhauer Marine Hardware -4557254

The lines then go through deck organizers
Schaefer Marine Hardware - Product Catalog

and then through spinlock clutches
Spinlock XAS Rope Clutches at Mauri Pro Sailing

Behind the clutches on each side of the combing are two Barient 2 speed self tailing winches on each side followed by 2 European jam cleats on each side
West Marine European Jam Cleat - product summary - Bing Shopping

One STwinch is constantly occupied by the main sheet, the 4 halyards are all stopped by the spinlocks and usually collied and hung, the reef lines similar, the cenetrboard line is in a jam cleat, Vang line is also on a jam cleat as is the outhaul.

Traveler lines are loose on either side lead back through the spinlocks.

Sounds complicated, but actually is pretty neat and tidy.

Dave


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Don't forget backing plates on anything attached to the deck! You will need a longer mainsheet and whatever other lines you run back.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you have primary AND secondary winches in the cockpit you could consider the 'german' sheeting system, where the mainsheet is double ended and run fwd along the boom, down to the deck edge and back to the cockpit using clutches and/or the 'secondary' winches for control.

If your halyard is on the mast there's not much point in taking your reefing lines to the cockpit.. keep all those lines involved accessible from one location.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Faster said:


> If your halyard is on the mast there's not much point in taking your reefing lines to the cockpit.. keep all those lines involved accessible from one location.


Absolutely. There will also be less friction on the reefing lines.

I actually prefer reefing at the mast.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Securing and sealing the new deck hardware to prevent balsa water damage will be key the challenge.

The Cunningham and outhaul are not necessary to bring back to helm. The vang is very useful. 

Halyards - possibly

Do you have lazy jacks installed ?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

jackdale said:


> Absolutely. There will also be less friction on the reefing lines.
> 
> I actually prefer reefing at the mast.


Every time I get on a boat and all the lines that don't need to be are led to the cockpit, I say AAAGGHHH! Why? It made sense when I would rig a boat for "Shake A Leg" in Miami because the sailors are wheelchair bound. It just turns your cockpit into a cluster [email protected]$#K. There is allready enough with the sheets, and rollerfurl if you have one. Why add fifty feet of main hallyard to an all ready crowded area? I don't think it's easier to raise and lower/ reef a main sail from the cockpit. I find I still have to go up there and help it along and un-snag stuff. To each there own, but I never suggest it when asked.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Capt.aaron said:


> Every time I get on a boat and all the lines that don't need to be are led to the cockpit, I say AAAGGHHH! Why? It made sense when I would rig a boat for "Shake A Leg" in Miami because the sailors are wheelchair bound. It just turns your cockpit into a cluster [email protected]$#K. There is allready enough with the sheets, and rollerfurl if you have one. Why add fifty feet of main hallyard to an all ready crowded area? I don't think it's easier to raise and lower/ reef a main sail from the cockpit. I find I still have to go up there and help it along and un-snag stuff. To each there own, but I never suggest it when asked.


Yes...I know! Thats why I am asking for opinions and options...I single hand the boat now quite easily. Raising and lowering the main can get a tad bit hectic, but nothing at all I can't handle. I just see some newer boats with everything run aft. I'm wondering if its easier, or just different.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm trying to decide how to organize stuff on my boat too. My old boat had the main halyard run to the cockpit. I found I could easly single hand the boat w/o any tiller controller. On my new (old) boat, the halyards are at the mast. I will be setting up a tiller pilot, so I am going to leave the halyards at the mast for now.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Stumble said:


> The traveler mount that you have may need some modifications (read cut outs) to do this, but it isn't particularly hard. Just flip the blocks you currently have upside down, and where the cam cleat is take it off. Run the line to the gooseneck, then down to the deck.
> 
> You will probably need to add a deck organizer between about half way between the mast and the traveler to turn all the lines into the cut out in the traveler mount (those holes you cut out), then to a row of rope clutches just in front of the cabin top winch. You can run as many lines to the winch as you like, but any more than 5 gets very crowded on the winch. If you want to bring more back than that do the same thing on the other side.


This is one way to get fair lead for all the lines if you have only one winch.

This boat was originally set up with two cabin top winches each side. The winch feeder sits on the same place as one of the old winches (this could not be used with the dodger up.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I think less is more. Simple is easier. Definetly color code your lines, blue= main hallyard, red= port jib sheet, etc. You'll know at glance what line to grab, more important you can tell someone what line to pull on or slack by refering to the color. I think it's wize to stand at the mast and deal with hallyards and reefing there. Once and a while I notice something that needs my attention while I'm up there that I would'nt of seen otherwise. I've had much more problems dealing with cockpit run hallyards than mast winched. Just my opinion.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That photo in post 11 looks a lot like the aft end of my cabin. In my case, I have seven line locks each side, although not all of them are in use. (Stbd: 1 Spin hlyd, 2 Stbd jib halyard, 3 Main hlyd, 4 1st reef clew,5 2nd reef tack, 6 outhaul and 7 vang- Port: 1 Port Jib hlyd, 2 1st reef tack, 3 2nd reef clew 4 Pole lift, 5 pole downhwl, 6 cunningham and 7 spare.) I also have my jibsheet lead car adjusters, backstay adjuster, and jib furler line lead to the cockpit at the coamings, and my mainsheet and traveler adjusted from within the cockpit as well. 

For cruising with a crew, running all the lines back to the cockpit can be seen as a great luxury that may not be worth the time or trouble. In my case, I have my boat optimized for single-handed performance sailing and single-handed racing and so ran everything aft. For that purpose, in my opinion its the only way to go. 

I will freely admit that what follows is my own personal opinion and you may feel free to complete disagree with me based on how you sail your boat. If your deck plan works for you, more power to you. There is not one right answer here for everyone, but here is how I personally see this for the way that I sail my boat. 

1. Winches and cleats on the mast or deck are dangerous when single-handing. They make too easy a target for a stray sheet to snag on. Alone, clearing a fouled, heavily loaded sheet can be a dangerous business and a risk I personally consider unnecessary to take. I have made guards over the years to try to keep lines from hanging up, and they work most of the time, but sooner or later you will find yourself involuntarily hove to with a heavily loaded sheet needing to be cleared. 

2. If you are going to sail single-handed in all kinds of conditions (which I do), you need to be able to quickly and safely reef on the fly, on almost any point of sail, without getting away from reaching distance to the helm in an emergency. There is no time to get back to the helm and feather up when that 20 knot faster, vertical gust hits and knocks you flat while you are on the cabin top. (I know some of you think its impudent to be out single-handing in those conditions. You are probaly right.) 

3.A line that is hard to adjust won't get adjusted. If the control lines are in easy reach they are more likely to be adjusted properly, and that can mean a lot more comfort and speed. It often does mean a boat well sailed, vs sloppy seamanship.

4. It is nearly impossible to raise and douse a spinnaker from the mast single-handed without a sock, and I consider a sock a bad idea for single-handing since an hourglass is too easy to get with a sock, and too hard to get out single hand making the drop much more dangerous. When everything is led back to the cockpit, and without a sock, teh raise is quick and right from the cockpit you can prefeed the chute and have the sheet and guy right at hand as the chute goes up. The douse goes under the boom and into the companionway, neat as could be. 

5. The whole spagetti in the cockpit arguement is totally specious to me. No experienced and responsible sailor would pile all their control lines on the deck at the base of the mast without carefully coiling them and securing them. When you performance sail single-handed you need to be even more disciplined about coiling lines and keeping them clear of each other. There is no other choice if you want to be safe. In doing so the lines should be figure 8 coiled and placed so they can run freely. With some care and thoughtfulness, finding safe ways to place coiled lines becomes second nature just in the same way it does stowing lines up at the base of the mast.

6. I hear people voicing concern about the frictional losses of the extra turning blocks leading the lines aft. There is a little truth in that, but frankly with moden hardware there is a lot less frictional losses than is found in the mid-boom mainsheet and people seem perfectly willing to live with that for reasons that are far beyond my imagination. 

7. Whoever said running the outhaul back to the cockpit is unnecessary must sail on only one point of sail in steady winds. The most used lines on my boat are the sheets and traveler of course, but close behind are the jib leads, outhaul and backstay which get cycled with pretty much any change in course, or wind speed and direction. I do agree with them about the cunningham, which I do not even rig on my boat.

But then again, all of the above may just be me. 

Jeff


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## CapnRon47 (Jul 29, 2007)

I will show you what i did, to Heron, when i return from sailing in Belize. Weather not so great, rain or not much wind to sail a Cat, but great time!

Capn Ron


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Every thing Jeff say's make sense. I single hand with no engine all over the Western and Southern Carib. My boat is small and modest and I've never raced anything but the weather. I have 2 hallyards, 2 jib sheets and a main sheet. I'm in all conditions, in all types of sea, all the time. Every once in a while my jib sheet gets caught on my mast winch when I tack. I go up there and un hook it. I fly an asymetrical when the wind is light. Sometimes I deliver big fancy boats with a million lines run aft, winches here and there, adjustable backstay's, fairleads, jam cleats etc. I usually raise the main, unfurl the jib and adjust the sheets as needed and never touch any of that other stuff. I appreciate other dudes do it different, or more percisely. What ever works for you is what you should do.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

In Southern California where the OP sails his Santana 30 - the winds are just about as predictable as they come.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> 5. The whole spagetti in the cockpit arguement is totally specious to me. No experienced and responsible sailor would pile all their control lines on the deck at the base of the mast without carefully coiling them and securing them. When you performance sail single-handed you need to be even more disciplined about coiling lines and keeping them clear of each other. There is no other choice if you want to be safe. In doing so the lines should be figure 8 coiled and placed so they can run freely. With some care and thoughtfulness, finding safe ways to place coiled lines becomes second nature just in the same way it does stowing lines up at the base of the mast.-JeffH


Wholeheartedly agree with Jeffs post.

As a person who does singlehand a lot I want everything led back to where I am safest..The cockpit. The least amount of time I spend exposed on the deck, the better, especially when the wind pipes up. I am extremely concientious when by myself about where are the lines are.

Lead your lines back. Stay safe. Safety first...always and forever.

Dave


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I agree with safety first, I'm clipped in if out the companion way 100% of the time. I single hand on 1000 mile voyages and am able to access all points of my boat, from the mast head to the bottom of my keel at any time safely. I've re-attached my centerboard cable in the middle of the Yucatan channel, and fetched a lost hallyard half way between Jamacia and Columbia. I don't have roller furl so I have to go to the for deck to raise and lower head sail. leaving the cockpit is a part of my routine deck and rig inspection ( safety). I've discovered a multitude of little problems that I would have missed if I did'nt go to the mast to reef or change up. Being out there on the deck is a part of the whole experience.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

My Santana 30 has all the halyards lead aft to the cabintop winches. Because it is an old race boat it has 2 spin halyards, 2 genoa halyards and the main halyard. The spin pole topping lift and the tack line for the asymetric spinnaker also come aft. Those 6 lines come via deck organizers, 3 per side, through slots cut in the traveler riser, to triple Spinlock XTS rope clutches. (The best clutches on the market IMHO!) That allows any halyard to be put on one of the two cabin top winches. The pole topping lift passes just beside the riser terminating at a cam cleat, and the other side has the baby stay adjuster passing beside the riser to another cam cleat. Even with all those lines coming aft, it just takes a couple of sheet bags to keep it all out of the way. When I am sailing, the tails of all the halyards get thrown down the companionway. I'm sure that would drive some people crazy, but as a racer, a bit of spaghetti doesn't bother me! 

If you want to put halyards onto those winches you will definitely have to go through the traveler riser in order to have a good load angle. Obviously you have less halyards than I do so the spaghetti factor will be less.

With the vang it is a good idea to have it within reach. When you are sailing on a reach or running in heavy weather, the best way to quickly de-power the main if you get into trouble is to release the vang. For that reason many race boats run the vang aft on both sides, so that it is in easy reach on either tack. They would be prime candidates to go either side of the riser to cam cleats.

Next time I am down at the boat I will take some photos so you can see what I am talking about.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

SchockT yes please take pics for me....Here is what my deck looks like.....I have a similar setup on the other side. Looks like I have a 2 line organizer there. My main halyard is the top most line in the pic. The one led aft is not being used. Its one of the spinnaker halyards and its not in use at the time. Maybe I can just reroute it and give it a try and see how it works.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Newport,

That cheek block is in a terrible position, and those winches are just adding weight and complexity to the boat that doesn't need to be there. You can neither adjust from the mast, or from the cockpit, but must work in some weird combination of them.

My advice would be to add a quad deck organizer, three lines for what you have, plus a spare if you need it in the future. Or a tripple just for what you have. Put it about on line with the where the middle line on your deck runs if you continue the line out, and run those lines back to the spinlocks. It will go a long way to making sail handling easier.

The concerns over your current set up:

1) the line run to the back is brought outboard at too strap an angle. The larger the bend around a sheave the higher the loads on it are, and the more friction it adds to the system.

2) winches and cleats for individual lines slow down line handling, and add a lot of stuff to the deck

3) that stuff can add to lines getting fouled, tripping, stubbed toes, hung up sails, ect. For very little gain.

Alternatively if you want the lines on the mast, then add spinlocks on the mast for them, and add a self tailing winch just below the spinlocks. I prefer lines in the cockpit for short handed sailing but I understand the argument against them.

A good example of what it should look like. This bend is a little tighter than ideal, but noT bad. http://www.sailorscovemarine.com/deck organizer 06.jpg


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I agree with Stumble, you should get rid of those dedicated halyard winches, and lead the halyards aft! If the winches are in good shape you may even be able to sell them to help pay for some decent clutches and a deck organizer.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Awesome...wow...learning LOTS here....thanks guys.


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## itsaboat (Sep 28, 2011)

NewportNewbie said:


> Awesome...wow...learning LOTS here....thanks guys.


Enjoying this thread as well. I am looking at the possibility of doing some of the same. I would like to see more pics of these set-ups.

My boat has mast winches for the halyards and the sheets on the coamings, but none on the cabin top. Newport, do you have winches further aft on the cabin as well as those oddly-placed winches in the picture? If not, you could reposition perhaps?

For me, main and jib halyards and vang would be the only lines I would like to have in the cockpit. This would give the ability to quickly and safely drop sail.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

More pics from my setup, this is partly made by me and partly by the PO.

Pics taken last autumn to document lead of all the lines - before taking the mast down for some upgrades.
Inherited this setup from the PO - replaced the mast base blocks this spring (no pics 

Some of the blocks at the mast base are from the boat was new - others have been added later. The green rope to the left in the pic is the main sheet










Organizers stacked in two hights with eyes on the top (originaly only one hight - added by PO)
The rope in the middle/top is tack line for the asymetric. 
The other two is just for testing the lead of the furling lines for the asymetric / code 0 (chose another lead for this)









Lead under the traveler track and traveller setup. Traveller new last year.
Note the lead to get the adjustment on the cabin top (Old setup had a cleat at track end) 









Cabintop with winch and raised winch feeder.
This is my "design" replaced two winches (one was useless with dodger up) and an asortment of old clutches and jammers.

When doing changes like this it's important to test placement and lead thoroughly. I tested lots of different configurations before deciding on this.

Tip: Take pictures to document your different layouts - easier to go back and compare before you decide 

The block under the winch feeder is there to get a good angle on the line going to the winch. extends on the outboard side to prevent line from falling down.
Decided not to use this solution for the furling line (bad lead)


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

I have plenty of winches. Lol. I think 10 total. So 6 more in the cockpit. No need for those further back.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Wow.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Here is the layout of Schock Therapy



















Note that the starboard side line that appears to go to a cheek for a 90 degree deflection is in fact a halyard that is not in use, and goes to a fairlead for securing purposes only. You never want to deflect on such an angle if you can avoid it. I have been playing with layouts a bit since I added rigging for my asymetric spinnaker. I haven't given up on the symetric rigging just yet, but the wife hates it, so it will probably go. In the meantime the topping lift and downhaul are great for hanging the solar shower, the hammock chair etc!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Knuterikt;

Is that DUCT TAPE on your vang? 

You might want to rethink that...have you ever seen what happens to that stuff after the sun has attacked it? uke


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

SchockT said:


> Knuterikt;
> 
> Is that DUCT TAPE on your vang?
> 
> You might want to rethink that...have you ever seen what happens to that stuff after the sun has attacked it? uke


Yes - I inherited this from the PO, have not come around to cleaning that stuff off yet


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## CapnRon47 (Jul 29, 2007)

I singlehand Heron, a 35' sloop, much of the time, all the main sail lines are at the mast, so I have always used jack lines and a harness. I am over 65 now and figured why not make things a bit easier for myself, so this year I had the lines lead to the cockpit. As it came originally, vintage 1989, the main halyard, its clutch and winch were on the mast.










The tack reef points are rings in the sail that hook to horns at the boom. The clew reef lines are lead thru the boom to clutches on the bottom of the boom and then turn down to the cabintop.










I was thinking of a jiffy reefing system that would reduce the number of lines back to the cockpit, but it required rerouting the internal boom lines to it's exterior so that they could be lead to the tack reef points. This would have required drilling holes in the boom and adding SS fairleads for the lines to exit the boom and then more hardware to turn the lines up the tack reef rings. So instead I opted to have all the individual reef lines (4 of them, 2 for tack and 2 for clew points) lead back to the cockpit.

For all my changes I left all the original hardware in place, so everthing can be done at the mast as before. When using the lines lead back to the cockpit is just need to leave all those forward clutches open.

On my original cabintop I had 2 winches; one, on port, for the mainsheet and one, on strbd, for my swing keel line. The swing keel line also had a clutch to hold the line in place.










I can free up the strbd winch by locking the keel lifting line, so I placed a clutch on that side for the mainsheet. I also placed 2 clutches there for the first reef point lines. The tack reef line does not need to use the winch as you just pull the sail down until it stops. I might need the winch for the first clew line, so it is placed closer that winch. I offset the new clutches from the original clutch that holds the keel line, so they would not be confused.










Here you see 4 clutches on strbd; the original keel clutch set forward of the 3 newer ones. All open the same way, they are Spinlocks. the outside clutch is for the mainhalyard, the 2 inside are for the first reef point lines. At the mast base I added three blocks; one for the main halyard and a double for the first reef lines. The clew reef lines comes out of the boom, turns down then thru this block to aft to the cockpit.










On the port side of the cabin top, see above, I added a triple clutch; one for the mainsheet (in case I need to lock it off while using the winch to tighten the second reef point clew line) and two for the second reef points, clew and tack.

The reef lines are handled with blocks at the base of the mast on the port side just like the strbd side.










Before I had this work done, I tested raising the mainsail from the cockpit by hand using a block to run the halyard back to the cockpit. I found I could do it easier there than at the mast as I was pulling aft and had a place to brace myself. So with this as a test I concluded this system would work. And it does.

The only other hardware added are fairleads, for all lines, at the edge of the cabintop companionway hatch cover.










My dodger has inside pockets which I use to organize the lines, but I am considering adding some bags there as the traveller lines also come into the cockpit. I am really happy having moved the lines to the cockpit, it just makes is so much more relaxing to know I don't need to leave the cockpit for most changes. I still run the jack lines and have the harness handy. I find that I can raise the mainsail and reef much faster now, putting little strain on the awheel utopilot (which is still very nice to have).

Capn Ron


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