# I Paid a Dude. And I Liked It.



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This thread is going to have a very sacrilegious bent for SN...but I thought it was important.

SN, as most forums, is the land of the independent. The throne of the DIYer. Of this there is no question. After all, once you're "out there" - it's all you. No arguing that.

Now, to be clear, I, too, aspire to be that DIYer who can low-buck a purring Yanmar into existence with nothing but a led ingot and McGuivered soldering iron.










I'm smart. And I'm handy. I've done a great deal of relatively "quality low-buck work" on my boat - by myself. Yet, I will confess, there is a line. In fact, there are many of them. Lines that I really can't, or _don't want to_ cross.

For me, "deep electrical" and "deep mechanical" are two of those lines. I can install and maintain with the best of them. But I'm a bit nervous about "going deep". I can change oil, bleed lines, replace alternators...but no way am I going to replace rings. I can install instruments, solar panels and systems, but no way am I going to push into the depths of my AC.

Let's face the true fact: We all own freakin' _yachts_. We're not "poor". At some point, unless we are the heroic art borne of DC Comics (like MaineSail) - we are gong to hit the end of our expertise-levels.

This thread is for those times. It's kind of the "Anti-Low-Buck" thread.

I needed some work done. It was work that I probably could have done myself _with enough time and patience_. But I decided to go a different direction...

I paid a dude. And I liked it.

What about you?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I had been having trouble with my radar. I discovered that the cable was a freakin' disaster. Several splices as it ran up the mast (aka - lousy low buck work). I bought a new cable and started trying to figure out how to run it. What I discovered was a major pain in the ass. Pulling that cable through very tight conduit, up a deck-stepped mast, with two young boys as my backup?










I picked up the phone and pulled out the checkbook.

While we were at it, I had the dude look at our Isotherm fridge. It ran fine on DC, but was really wonky on shore-power.

I also was having trouble with my aft cabin lights on the starboard side. Obviously a cross-over wire as jacked. But there were tons of them coming across. Which was it? I could have spent a whole weekend playing with the multi-meter. Instead, I called a dude.

I'll let you know what the bill was for this trifecta of payment.


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

I wish I was more McGyver, I guess I'll settle for Macgruber.










goat


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Sooner or later we all pay, or wish we did :laugher We just ordered new teak handrails. When I worked in the boat shop there was all this great equipment, a huge supply of materials available and I could stay late "cause I've got a job to finish". Now I'm reduced to mostly hand tools. But at $18 per loop for hand rails we are getting off light paying a dude with the right equipment.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

When you "hit the end of your expertise level"... bust through it.

At one time, I didn't know"deep mechanical" or "deep electrical' either...but i have never had 'deep pockets", so I had to dig "deep" into the library stacks, and the internet, and the brains of other boatyard and shop rats to learn the answers.

Because it was just plain stupid to pay someone else $75-90 an hour when i was earning... less.

Still is. if the shop rate is twice my take home pay, that means that if the job takes me less than twice as long to do it as a pro, i am money, and skills learned, ahead.

Your "true facts' aren't everyone's "true facts' 
Some of us, when faced with a challenge, rise to it rather than surrender. : )

The reason might be monetary- after all, contrary to your opinion, owning a "yacht' does not necessarily mean the owner is rich- it means that he/she made the choice and the sacrifices to own a boat, which entails that he/she has to overcome the challenges that others would pay others to overcome.

If i didn't do my own work, i wouldn't be able to sail my "yacht".

I hired a guy...once.

I paid a mechanic $1276 to work on my 1GM10 engine over the course of a season.
I realized, after reviewing the bill, that I was paying "portal to portal"- the meter was running from the moment the mechanic left the shop until the moment he returned to the shop... including every trip from my boat down the dock to his truck top get another tool... and back. He was a great guy, but his time was worth more to him and his bosses than it was to me.
and great guy or not, my engine ran no better, $1276 later.

I ended up rebuilding the top end myself the next season.

The top end rebuild parts cost less than $300. it took less than 6 hours of time, start to finish, and i learned about small diesel engines along the way.


The systems on a sailboat are dead simple. most of the work is dirty, annoying, cramped and frustrating, but on a mechanical difficulty 1-10 scale, all of it runs about a 4-6.

The ONE place where I MIGHT pay someone else is masthead stuff. I'm not scared of heights, but i am wary of unexpected accelerated impacts.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> When you "hit the end of your expertise level"... bust through it.


Naaa. I'd rather sail.



bljones said:


> Your "true facts' aren't everyone's "true facts'
> Some of us, when faced with a challenge, rise to it rather than surrender. : )


I rose to the challenge. I paid. And it was freakin' great.

True fact.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Naaa. I'd rather sail.
> 
> I rose to the challenge. I paid. And it was freakin' great.
> 
> True fact.


Fair enough.
Those who sail, sail. 
those who learn the skills... keep sailing.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> Fair enough.
> Those who sail, sail.
> those who learn the skills... keep sailing.


No, they usually sail _a little_ between the time put into "library stacks, and the internet, and the brains of other boatyard and shop rats to learn the answers"..._*then*_ actually doing the job. (See hourly rate.)

Again, I have nothing against any of the above - and I'm learning as much as I can as go. But it definitely ain't the only (or smartest) way to "live and let sail". Just my incredibly humble opinion - as usual.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> No, they usually sail _a little_ between the time put into "library stacks, and the internet, and the brains of other boatyard and shop rats to learn the answers"...then actually doing the job. (See hourly rate.)
> 
> .


I've never missed a season, and i sail longer and deeper into the season than most- first in, last out, even wiht all that damn do it yourself work. And I am not standing around waiting for mechanics and technicians and painters and blasters and riggers to finally get around to my boat.
My time is more valuable than to wait for others...exactly because our season is only 6 or so months long.

YMMV.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> I've never missed a season, and i sail longer and deeper into the season than most- first in, last out, even wiht all that damn do it yourself work. And I am not standing around waiting for mechanics and technicians and painters and blasters and riggers to finally get around to my boat.
> My time is more valuable than to wait for others...exactly because our season is only 6 or so months long.
> 
> YMMV.


Actually, that might be a very important differentiator. In the warm climes of Tejas, we can sail year-round. It leaves less time for "studies".

Different totes for different sherpas.

So, again, I understand the advantages of DIY (I too have had a bad experience with hired service). But sometimes, it's really awesome to pay the man and have it done well...then go sailing.

Actually, I recommend it if you can swing it.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, that might be a very important differentiator. In the warm climes of Tejas, we can sail year-round. It leaves less time for "studies".


Not really- at least 4 out of those 6 months it is too cold and snowy to actually work, and, really, this isn't nuclear reactor design- there isn't as much "studying" as there is gruntwork. So, our winter is similar to your "too hot and humid to work' gulf coast summer, which means you and i both are really looking at spring and fall to get everything you want to get done, done.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> Not really- at least 4 out of those 6 months it is too cold and snowy to actually work, and, really, this isn't nuclear reactor design- there isn't as much "studying" as there is gruntwork. So, our winter is similar to your "too hot and humid to work' gulf coast summer, which means you and i both are really looking at spring and fall to get everything you want to get done, done.


"Too hot and humid to work"? I don't think anyone who owns less than four sections of Tejas ever says that. After all, we have AC and iced tea. And no one EVER says it's "too hot and humid to SAIL" - which is the thrust of this thread.

But that's neither here nor there.

Let's just agree that it's ALWAYS nicer to sail than to grunt. No question. If I need to sometimes pay a dude to make that happen, I'm perfectly fine with that. In fact, it's kind of awesome.

That's all I'm saying.


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

Not beyond my expertise level but I pay a marina diver to clean my hull and check the zincs once a month or so. Best $26 bucks I ever spend.
Pure lazy. 

goat


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

My personal issue is repairing heads. I know how, and have rebuilt them... But I won't do it if there is any other option. Nothing worse than replacing a 40' long plugged tube of excrement. No matter what the bill it's better to pay than do it. 

The other job I hate is waxing the boats. I maintain five boats, and as soon as you get done with one worki on days off and nights it's time to start all over again. Better to pay someone than eat up all my sailing time trying to get it done.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

We paid a lot this year and are not done. Just after arriving in our winter home in Tunisia i was changing out the anchor rode and ripped a shoulder tendon muscle. Surgery with 2 screws and 2 months later and i can lift a 1 liter bottle of olive oil, maybe. 3 times a week to pt is getting me there but the boat needs a lot of pm as we put a lot of hours and miles on her last year. 

And we are sailing starting around May 1 for the eastern Med so my choice is sit and do the work when my arm heals and not get to the eastern Med or pay someone. We paid. Most of the stuff i could myself if i had 2 working arms. 

Our goal is get the arm stong enough to sail by May and have the boat ready to go by then. The later will happen the former will still take a lot of pt to get there. 

so we pay and sail or not pay and sit. Not much a choice in our minds.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Very few in this world live in a self sufficient vacuum. Do you grow your own food? Write your own operating system? Some things are just not worth doing yourself unless you derive some sort of satisfaction like a hobby.

For me, it is good to know how to fix things when out and about. However, I would never change the oil in my car myself. By the time one gets the oil, the filter, and the pan, $19.99 and 15 minutes at the oil change place have easily gone by.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Relatively speaking, my wife and I spend a lot of time aboard, during the season. However, it is still very regimented. I can never just run to the marina at night, while working. I do spend 3 to 4 day weekends for six month aboard, plus a few weeks of straight cruising, but when I'm working, I'm working. No mixing.

I typically enjoy working on the boat, learning how she's put together and the feeling of accomplishment. However, I will not unduly sacrifice the opportunity to go sailing, which is why we bought the boat in the first place. 

I have two primary reasons for hiring a guy. First, the job requires either special skills or tools that I don't have. I can do most jobs, particularly with a little research. However, you may find yourself not knowing, what you don't know!! Little tips and tricks can make a big difference in doing a job correctly. The tools are not always worth accumulating for job you may not do again for years. For routine jobs, they are. Second, I may not have the time. I can fit in a two hour job. A 20 hour job has to be contracted out. 

There are times, however, where you just can't afford to pay a guy. The amount of time I have put into varnishing my cockpit table is economically ridiculous. It would have been cheaper to have a new table made, then pay someone to strip and varnish, like I did.

I will also do my own work, when I just don't trust the yard tards to do it correctly. I have thousands of stories of unbelievably stupid work. You get a feel for when it's not worth it.


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

I paid a dude to replace my standing rigging when I bought my boat - best $3k I ever spent and got to learn from him how to do it myself next time.

Also paid a kid to do the buff, polish, and wax routine on the hull last time _Moon_ was out of the water, and have no regrets about that one either.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

The title of this thread could suggest something way....uh..... well never mind.

I have no problem paying for service. We place a huge emphasis on saving -- but we do have lives to live. I guess if I was a single guy it might be different, bit with a wife and kid (who are the center of my world) I'm not gonna spend a whole day (or days) twisted into my engine compartment playing mechanic when I am definetely no mechanic. Heck, I paid a guy to rake my yard last fall because it freed up a weekend to spend with the family.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

cleaning and waxing. Screw that ****e.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Only if the dude looked like a lady.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

3 things are at work. Time, money, and quality of work.

Time is the single most valuable thing we get. I didn't always believe that, but we all get to this realization sooner or later in life. You might run out of money, but you will run out of time. We all do.

Money can buy work, BUT, it cannot buy quality. And it's not correlated with fancy equipment, big name yards or anything like that. We've found you need to know who the guy is who's going to do the work directly. The guy with the paint brush or wrench, the management is not an indicator of anything, in fact usually lots of management in a yard isn't a good thing. We've had the best luck in small yards where we know everyone by name. And, like Mini I've got lots of yard horror stories of jobs gone bad.

Being a nerd, I find myself increasingly paying for the bottom painting, cleaning, and other mindless tasks; while doing the nerd stuff like electronics, electrical, systems, and engines. Getting older, I'm not as enthusiastic about replacing an 3" exhaust hose while prone in a cockpit locker as I used to be. And yea, Smack, I'm not doing rings either. Once I get to the point I'm stripping threads, I'm getting out the checkbook. The hard part of engine work is that it doesn't come apart like that engine on a stand in the classroom that's been apart 3 times a semester. If you need to get to it, you cannot reach it. If you can reach it, the thread is frozen

In general, doing your own work is can be a very satisfying part of boat ownership. You have complete control of quality. You get the satisfaction of seeing it done, and knowing your systems inside and out. But some things, like sanding the bottom and coming out of the process looking like a smurf, loose their luster after the first few experiences


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## cheoah (Jul 5, 2011)

Reminds me of a 'woman' I saw in Phnom Penh the other night. Some tourist got a surprise. 

In everything I do, I try to defer to professionals when it's a project that is hard to get right as a first timer. Tig welding comes to mind. I can do it. But no comparison to a seasoned tig operator. 

Some people are idealogical about DIY - which is fine - I just don't like to waste time or materials and end up spending more in the end. Or worse, having some shoddy work, that happens to be mine.

I paid a dude for a bottom job. After back surgery. And I liked it too. 

But that's it so far.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I spent a whole season on a mooring while I tried to figure out why my once reliable diesel would not start. Finally scratching my head I broke down and and started to pay someone $75 an hour to scratch their head too. As expenses started to approach a thousand bucks I decided to stop digging. I then got back into my "Zen and Motorcycle Maintenance" mode and got as far as thinking about taking the head block off. I took the rocker cover off looked at oily mess as I lay scrunched down below and thought "I don't think so". That got me thinking about a new replacement engine. Which lead to eventually putting in electric propulsion. It has been a much more trouble free and CLEANER boat ever since. My experience with one mechanic even led me to removing the engine from the boat myself which turned out not to be as bad as I thought it was going to be.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

capecodda said:


> 3 things are at work. Time, money, and quality of work.
> 
> ** snip }


I would add 'reward'

I have a 30-year-old dinghy. It had some scrapes on it that I patched with a fiberglass kit.. In the end, it looked like a guy with no expertise (i.e. me) would do.

But in the end I have no interest in trying to restore the boat to perfection... Some would do the work themselves (or hire an expert) because they would find the work and the results *reward*ing, I wouldn't. I also put duct tape on my car's plastic bumper when I hit a snow bank.

Maybe "I can live with it" should be added.

I can safely say, no matter how bad my sanding down of the fiberglass was, my sailing skills hinder the boat speed much more than my handiwork ..


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

My approach:
1.Can it be fixed?
2.Does it have to be fixed now?
3.Do I have the time to fix it?
4.Does it look like I can fix it? 
I don't have a problem paying someone to do some work for me. Happens all the time.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I read the first few posts, and began to appreciate both sides of the issue... and then it got silly...

For anyone who cares, here is my take;

First off, I am 55 and only work part-time teaching sailing. I have been in this situation for the past two years, and would rather starve and sell the boat (and a kidney) than work for the last "professional" boss that I had. What this means is that I can't afford to pay someone for working on my boat without dipping into my retirement (?) savings.

I have learned to keep the systems on my boat simple, and ONLY have what I can fix or repair myself. I have grown to know the M-25 engine, and therefore all the Kubota-based diesels pretty well by now. The boats that I teach on have Yanmars, and I can do the simple stuff there too. All of the electronics I have removed, and either replaced or re-installed myself. I only have 2 batteries, and therefore don't have the power necessary to support an autopilot or Radar... 

I KNOW my boat and its systems. If something breaks, I can fix it. I compound, polish and wax, thanks to Maine Sail's excellent posts, and I can even do gelcoat work. I can't fix an autopilot or Radar, but I don't need to do either.

There are things on my boat that I can't do, or can't afford to buy the tools for. Canvas is an example. I have seen many boats with home-built canvas, which frankly looks home built... No offense to those of you who can do this yourself, and are happy with the results. I cannot. For this type of work, craftsmanship is something that I cannot do without, so I will have to pay for it, or do without. 

I also cannot haul my boat myself. I have neither the tools, nor a place to put it. Again, something that I have to pay someone else to do for me...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> However, I will not unduly sacrifice the opportunity to go sailing, which is why we bought the boat in the first place.


Bingo.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

weinie said:


> cleaning and waxing. Screw that ****e.


Brother, you got that right...I'll pay to have this done. I hate waxing a car, much less a boat.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> owning a "yacht' does not necessarily mean the owner is rich- it means that he/she made the choice and the sacrifices to own a boat


The person might not be rich relative to their neighbor but I guarantee that person is rich compared to most of the world. It is a point I try regularly to remind myself.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

VF84Sluggo said:


> Brother, you got that right...I'll pay to have this done. I hate waxing a car, much less a boat.


Isn't that why they invented teenage boys?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Before I went cruising I was a highly skilled self employed person whose job, education and training had nothing whatsoever to do with spanners, screwdrivers, wrenches, or side cutters.

My retirement was to live a life of leisure NOT to become a tradesman in a field I have never wished to work.

Thus I will do the work I am happy to do and pay others for work I do not wish to do


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I'm a retired fireman, if I never wash, wax or polish another thing the rest of my life it's okay with me.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Not true in my case, but this had to be done:


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I extended my hulls 2 feet and loved it. I've installed engines and rebuilt them from the ground. But I know my limitations.

Sewing machines hate me; I pay for canvass work, and love it.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

pdqaltair said:


> Sewing machines hate me; I pay for canvass work, and love it.


Me too!!! My sewing machine hated me soooo much I had to sell it so it would stop biting me....

I also paid to have my bottom stripped & sanded & then _properly_ barrier coated. Done that _stupid_ job far too many times to ever do it again...

I also don't do try and make my own sails....

I also don't paint with LPU's unless it is just touch up. Done it, don't have the building to do it correctly, would rather let the guy with the shop do it right...........

All of those jobs I am glad to pay a good skilled professional to do. Luckily we have no shortage of good skilled work here in Maine when it comes to boats...

About the only job I won't do on a diesel is rebuild and injector pump but I have a good local shop..


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Definitely agree, Maine has some skilled shops, and not just at my favorite builder.


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> While we were at it, I had the dude look at our Isotherm fridge. It ran fine on DC, but was really wonky on shore-power.


Confused am I....

The Isotherm runs off the batteries (dc) right? Not sure what being on shore-power has to do with anything.

We paid a guy to build our bimini and install it. That was the best $1600.00 we ever spent before going cruising.

Also paid a guy to cut a hole in our fuel tank and install an access panel. He cleaned the tank inside thoroughly. No fuel problems in 5000 miles (knock wood).

Paid a rigger a few hundred to inspect the rigging and tune it. He also installed a new vhf antenna, windvane, and replace a light.

Paid for a bottom job at a yard (same as yours). We had installed a new rudder, and the yard guys didn't bother to properly clean the mold release off the new rudder. Within 350 miles the paint was stripping off the new rudder. It's been a pain for 2 years now. About to do my own bottom job for the first time. We'll see how that goes. Probably even less fun than I am expecting...

Ralph


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

I tried that once. I paid an ABYC certified electrician from a nearby yard to rewire my battery bank, somewhere in the realm of $400 to install a battery switch and swap a few cables. 

He forgot to hook up one of the batteries and left the positive lead resting on the fuel tank.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> I paid a dude. And I liked it.


So far in 7 years of boat ownership the only time I've paid to have work done is to run new halyard and change the anchor light bulb because I didn't want to go up the stick. But Bill for that resulted in next time going up the stick was needed I did it myself (with my wife cranking).

But I would pay to have work done if the tools to do it were more expense than the cost of getting someone else to do it.

And with age some jobs are starting to look good to have someone else do them. But these are normally pretty unskilled jobs and I just can not bring myself to pay the yard monkeys $65/hr to run a wax buffer.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Something's I do because while doing them I see things I would not otherwise notice. Yard sands the bottom.i paint the bottom.
Somethings the yard does. Key systems that might contribute to my death if they fail are done by the yard if I have not done them myself in the past successfully. I watch and help if they let me. Often by doing so the next time I have enough confidence to do it myself. I often view paying a pro as a two-er. The job gets done and I learn how to do it correctly. However, I don't want to find out I screwed up a key piece of maintaince or repair offshore so at this point do still pay for somethings. 
I just paid to have a small tear in my mainsail repaired. In that case it was to get batt slides I broke to me quickly. The difference between paying import and shipping and for the slides versus having sailmaker fix main and sell me two spares with repaired main and spares delivered to the boat was trivial. Also I don't have a sail rite machine. 
Some cosmetics I will have done by pros as well. I love my boat so want a pristine result. Other chores I do myself because it helps me bond with the boat. Last year replaced an ultrasonic speedo. Understanding the runs and modules was informative.
I'm retired so no earned income. Still expect some mix for years to come.


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## pjs1554 (May 16, 2009)

At the end of the day you have to ask yourself " what is my free time worth" Is doing this task what ever it is worth what little free time you have? Money aside of course.


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

I pay my yard to do quite a lot of the work. Why? Because I only have weekends in season to go sailing. And not every weekend. And sometimes the weather does not cooperate. So, yeah, I pay the yard to get the boat fixed during the week so I can spend the weekend sailing with my wife. 

That said, part of my calculus as to whether I'll do it is to answer the question "what are the consequences of screwing up?" If it will be costly because I've wasted an expensive part or made something worse, then I'm more likely to pay a dude. If it will prevent me from sailing for another week then I'm more likely to pay. 

Over time, as my experience has grown I've taken on more and more. But I'd always rather be sailing.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

My wife keeps a spreadsheet going for our boat jobs, charting costs, progress etc. 

One of the columns is titled "call a man" 
The first time she ticked that column I sulked a little.

I am now used to it, but my experience with "paying a dude" or "calling a man" is that...

- He won't be available for a month. 
- If you ask him to give you a quote he may act as if you just asked him to sell his grandmother. 
- His website is 5 years old,was done by his girlfriend and bears no resemblance to what he actually does. He doesn't know how to check his email.
-when you do call him after a month he will be Europe and working on a very big, shiny, expensive boat. 
- He will probably charge you three times what he quotes.
- (When you have a 30 year old boat) He will stare at the engine/rudder/mast/sails/ electrics/ battery he is there to work on and tut tut for several minutes, frown a lot and say wow that's the oldest, rustiest one of those he has ever seen which means he is going to charge 4-5 times what he quoted, despite it being just as old, rusty when he quoted 

*The above while being real examples of the past few years of my life, are mean't tongue in cheek, no offence intended to marine tradefolk, the majority whom are fantastic .


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

I pay for the teak cosmetic work.
The rest I try to do myself.
In a way I know it is done to some reasonable(?) minimum standard when I do it myself, and it is certainly cheaper.
.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

This brings up the issue of who you call.
Do you listen to word of mouth from other owners or captains that run boats?
Do you only deal with yards so there is some one to go after if it doesn't work out.
Do you price shop as the major determinant 
Have you developed a Rolodex for tradespeople and go back to who you used before


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

What I'm struggling with is what you do if you are bouncing around without a fixed home port?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Another reason to pay a dude. We are away from the dock almost all weekend. If something breaks, I may have to go back to work before I have time to fix it. Then, I'm bringing guests back with me in 3-4 days and need it to work.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

outbound said:


> This brings up the issue of who you call.
> Do you listen to word of mouth from other owners or captains that run boats?
> Do you only deal with yards so there is some one to go after if it doesn't work out.
> Do you price shop as the major determinant
> Have you developed a Rolodex for tradespeople and go back to who you used before


Bingo.

These are lessons we are learning very quickly. I don't have the answers yet!

We have some really good people who work on our boat, really,really good. They(reasonably and justifiably) charge accordingly. I am ok with that, it makes me think about what is important work that's needs their skills and what I can do myself.

Also when getting important work done(rudder at the moment) I am benefitting from the experience of people who are very good at what they do and won't cut any corners even if makes their life difficult and hurts my wallet.

The issue is they do not often work on cruising boats like ours. Most of their clients here is Sydney don't want to know about the maintenance issues on their boats, they want it fixed, don't care how or why, they just want a bill at the end and to be back on the water by the weekend.

I have asked for and received good word of mouth recommendations on here and CF before.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

The boating world is small. It's pretty easy if you ask around to figure out who the good guys are, and who aren't so good. We've found the answer is not uniform, one yard might have a great rigger, another yard has an Awlgrip specialist who produces perfect results, another yard might have a great diesel mechanic. 

Do your research. Hourly rates are not worth comparing. A top mechanic will get the job done quick, and an amateur will spend all day figuring out how to solve the problem on your dime. And not everyone knows how to paint topsides, be cautious, look at their work first, get references. 

It's a very small world, and the same folks keep showing up, sometimes in different places with different bosses. As do the same consumers sometimes with different boats (that's all of us mostly), and the trade talks about how we all behave too

The scuttlebutt goes both ways.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Me too!!! My sewing machine hated me soooo much I had to sell it so it would stop biting me....
> 
> I also paid to have my bottom stripped & sanded & then _properly_ barrier coated. Done that _stupid_ job far too many times to ever do it again...
> 
> ...


Wow Maine - your post more than just about any of them make me feel much better about paying. You obviously have a very high bar (which I seriously admire) - so if _you're_ willing to shop some things out, I feel much better about doing it too.

I have just never understood the "be all things" mentality. Especially when there is sailing to be done.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RTB said:


> Confused am I....
> 
> The Isotherm runs off the batteries (dc) right? Not sure what being on shore-power has to do with anything.


It runs off both. It regulates itself to get cold fast on AC, then conserve power on DC. It's pretty cool.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capecodda said:


> ....A top mechanic will get the job done quick, and an amateur will spend all day figuring out how to solve the problem on your dime.......


Good reason why one should always get estimates from the dude too. Both experienced and amateur alike can goof off, have a bad day, take a phone call, show up hung over, etc, and just take way longer than they should.

It's my number one gripe over yard work. Sometimes, they take twice as long as I did to do the same work the prior season. I ask the manager and he just says. "that's how long it took".

When pressed for an estimate to replace my injectors, he quoted one full day of labor, 8 hrs. I thought that was crazy, so I did it myself. It took me 2.5 hours and included a real ***** of a contortionist job getting one fuel line off and back on.

He also threatened that the sleeves could extract when pulling the injectors and it would take longer, if they did. I found that Volvo made a $50 tool that holds the sleeve down, when pulling the injector, ie 30 mins of his labor estimate, but he preferred to run the clock.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Shinook said:


> I tried that once. I paid an ABYC certified electrician from a nearby yard to rewire my battery bank, somewhere in the realm of $400 to install a battery switch and swap a few cables.
> 
> He forgot to hook up one of the batteries and left the positive lead resting on the fuel tank.


I've had the same kind of experience. I've posted about it here before and in the Yard Guys thread over at CF. Here's is what the Yard Guys left in my bilge after I had all the standing rigging re-done and new cables pulled for all the mast fixtures and instruments...










I don't think ABYC would have approved.










Even so, this bad experience didn't turn me off of paying a dude. It just completely turned me off of paying THAT dude...like EVER again.

The new dude is much better.


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

outbound said:


> What I'm struggling with is what you do if you are bouncing around without a fixed home port?


That is a seriously good point. We need an equivalent of 'Angie's list' for world wide ports, posted somewhere like noonsite. Just opinions from average joe sailors. Of course it may already exist, I just haven't stumbled across it yet.

goat


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I am not a huge fan of 100% DIY. It shouldn't depend on some personal pride or ego rather..if you can find great value for your money, then pay. If not, then research on the internut until you know how to do it yourself. There will always be some things that you should pay to have done.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I perform all the routine maintenance on the systems and engine and take on tasks that I feel confident, I can handle. Things like, rebuilding the head, refinishing the cabin sole, taking the keel down to lead and laying on 8 coats of epoxy, changing oil, taking winches apart etc are all manageable. Some of the more complex mechanical tasks, I know I could research and figure out. Expecially with sites like Main Sail's available. 

However, I'm semi retired, so I can also take on extra work and earn money doing what I know best. So I tend to pay for quality work and expertise when I want to make sure it is done correctly and professionally. I had a lot of work done this winter and I scheduled about 20 days work for myself over the next five months that will pay for it. There are also spaces in my boat that you need to be a gymnast to access, my yard has people that fit in those tight spaces much better than I can. So I pay the dude.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I'd like to a pay a dude to do somethings, but in de islands he just ain't around..so I muddle through it, most things I can do myself. I'd like to hire the guy who waxed and polishedthe top side and wet sanded the bottom for 20 bucks a day, but he got drafted into the Thai army. So I soldier on. Anybody know anything about sandpaper?


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

Last time we haules was in Carricou. We have a small sander on board and i started sanding and it was hot and i was soaked when the admiral came down and took one look and said enough - get one of those young guys to sand. I insisted i could do the job and said sure you can just get one of those guys to do it - you are not 30 years old any more. 

I did and it certaintly was a lot easier on the body and a lot faster than i would have gotten it done.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

I've done so many of my own upgrades and repairs that I can't begin to remember them all.

On the other hand, the times I've had to pay someone else to work on my boat, which has been seldom, I remember each episode. Expensive and questionable quality. 

The last time was on my new Catalina 28 which I purchased last year. The masthead sheaves were shot, and I hadn't put together a system for going up the mast yet. I found the sheaves online and had the marina install them using their crane. 

I also had them reconnect the knurled nut that holds the coax cable to the antenna. The cable was still connected but the nut had backed off and was suspended in the cable. 

It just had to be twisted on by hand. Literally, a 10 second job. On the itemized bill, this radio repair was $21.00!!!! 

Mind you, this is the marina in our town that specializes in sailboats, and has a good reputation. This certainly reinforces my attitude about doing my own work, one way or another.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Sal Paradise said:


> I am not a huge fan of 100% DIY. It shouldn't depend on some personal pride or ego rather..if you can find great value for your money, then pay. If not, then research on the internut until you know how to do it yourself. There will always be some things that you should pay to have done.


Agree. If you are going to be cruising especially those "far away places with strange sounding names" it's important to be a self sufficient as possible. Not everyone has people like Maine Sailors in the area. But, everyone has their limitations too. When I was converting the boat to Electric Propulsion in 2008 I felt very comfortable doing all the the wiring, connections, battery installation etc. I bought the proper crimpers and wires etc... But, when it came to extending the engine stringers to mount the bracket and motor. I wanted it done right. I was lucky to find a local shipwright to handle the modification. Of course I helped or rather observed and also learned quite a lot in the process.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Siamese said:


> ......
> 
> I also had them reconnect the knurled nut that holds the coax cable to the antenna. The cable was still connected but the nut had backed off and was suspended in the cable.
> 
> ...


Are you saying, you think they ripped you off for $21? I've never seen a bill that low and you did have them come to your boat. The old joke is, he charged you $1 for the repair and $20 for knowing what to do. 

I do understand they require a minimum amount of revenue. There is a certain fixed cost to them, just be available to come to your boat. Nevertheless, that would be 15 mins of labor charge around here, which seems about right to get to your boat, twist said connector and get back.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I understand about learning all the stuff for when you are 'out there', and, also, getting things done efficiently so it doesn't take away from sailing. But the fact is, I am just too f***ing cheap to pay someone to do these things! For me, it is really that simple.


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> It runs off both. It regulates itself to get cold fast on AC, then conserve power on DC. It's pretty cool.


Oh.....Well then, never mind.










Ralph


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Last year I unstepped my mast, completely repainted and refit everything, almost every component. Did all the work myself. Picked the brains of ya'll here on this forum. But I hired the local rigger to get the wires made and then paid him generously to show up at the boat after I had the mast back on. He not only helped me dock tune but he laid out the technical info (which I absorbed like a sponge) and I paid him generously for his time (and my education).

I concure with Smack... there I things for which we should not be cheap! 

Dave


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

*1. Being able to fix things is a skill.*
Call it McGyver or whatever, but it helps to be able to either fix it right or jury rig it as needed and to know the difference.

Once you know how to "fix things" you can pretty much figure out most problems.

*2. It's just as important to know when it makes sense to farm it out.*

If you've got #1 licked you'll be able to figure out whether you're dealing with a yard monkey or a skilled tradesman and you'll have a pretty good idea if the bill is fair or not.
*
3. If I can afford it sometimes it makes more sense to say frig it* and pay somebody -- even if I can do it. The older I get the more value I see in farming out grunt work.

MaineSail did a great write up on polishing hulls. Been there done that. I will happily write a check to Vinnie -- seriously his name's Vinnie -- it's the Jersey Shore.

He'll descend on the boat with four guys and all kinds of power tools and polish. I'll walk over to the bar for a burger and a couple of beers. When I come back the boat will look like new. It will be money well spent and my manhood will be intact.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Come to think of it, I've purchase several things over my lifetime that were full of DIY disasters. Either the PO didn't really know what they were doing, or took short cuts. 

I remain a big DIY fan, as I like to do some of the work myself. But one needs to know their limitations.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm not really sure I get all the hype of this thread.

Although it's true that Sailnet advocates DIY, independence and self-sufficiency, I've never been given the impression that hiring work out is considered heresy or sacrilegious here.

Some of us have more skill than money, or more money than time or skill, and repair decisions are based on these, and other factors.

For me, it's not really about money OR time. It's about trust. I keep seeing marine "professionals" in my area charging exorbitant prices and providing horrific service and poor quality work. It is due to a simple lack of trust that keeps me from letting these guys work on my 43 year old, 5-knot ****box.

In any case, so what? Nothing to see here, move along.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Siamese said:


> ...I found the sheaves online and had the marina install them using their crane.
> 
> ...It just had to be twisted on by hand. Literally, a 10 second job. On the itemized bill, this radio repair was $21.00!!!!...


And I suppose they got their CRANE for free?  Or how about their insurance premium every 1/4? It's $21. Do you know how much a couple ascenders are? A grigri, static climbing rope, foot loops, a quickdraw, carabiners, etc. The job isn't just tightening a nut.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Come to think of it, I've purchase several things over my lifetime that were full of DIY disasters. Either the PO didn't really know what they were doing, or took short cuts.
> 
> I remain a big DIY fan, as I like to do some of the work myself. But one needs to know their limitations.


Actually, this is a great point. DIY might be just the thing for you as a boatowner. But unless you're really, really good - it can be a nightmare for the dude buying your boat who likes quality work. I've got some of that in my boat right now.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, this is a great point. DIY might be just the thing for you as a boatowner. But unless you're really, really good - it can be a nightmare for the dude buying your boat who likes quality work. I've got some of that in my boat right now.


Yeah sometimes a jury rig becomes a permanent fix; or somebody just didn't know how to do it right. I found a couple of scary things in our boat.

DIY electrical work is what really scares me.


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

I do most of the stuff myself (I've completely redone the electrical, plumbing and a lot of fiberglass work), but upholstery, after reading about it, I hired someone else. Didn't feel like mucking around for weeks.

Also paid someone else to clean+wax the hull because screw that, and do the prop shaft /bottom work when I was hauled out - why? Because I live on my boat, and the sooner I get out of a boatyard 20 miles away from my marina and get 'home' to my neighbours and friends, the happier I'll be.

Living on a boat on stilts is weird.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Are you saying, you think they ripped you off for $21? I've never seen a bill that low and you did have them come to your boat. The old joke is, he charged you $1 for the repair and $20 for knowing what to do.
> 
> I do understand they require a minimum amount of revenue. There is a certain fixed cost to them, just be available to come to your boat. Nevertheless, that would be 15 mins of labor charge around here, which seems about right to get to your boat, twist said connector and get back.


I took the boat to them and they used their crane to replace the sheaves in the mast head. When I say it was 10 seconds to screw on the knurled nut, I mean 10 seconds. You don't think that's a rip-off? That was just one item on a much larger bill.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

I pay for stepping my keel stepped mast....and for pumpouts...

Other than that I do it myself...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Siamese said:


> I took the boat to them and they used their crane to replace the sheaves in the mast head. When I say it was 10 seconds to screw on the knurled nut, I mean 10 seconds. You don't think that's a rip-off? That was just one item on a much larger bill.


If it was only one knurled nut then why couldn't you do the job in 10 seconds? Something is missing...

BTW, did you just mention a crane?  

MedSailor


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

I pay my mechanic for winterizing. Its worth the money to have a second pair of eyes look over everything and for the peace of mind that if it is f--d up it is on his dime. Also pay for waxing the hull and going up the mast. No one wants to haul my butt up 50 feet and I won't even ask the admiral!
I've learned to install an AP, refrigeration, AIS, refinish cabin sole, make a new helm seat.....
Just waiting for the ice to melt.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

zz4gta said:


> And I suppose they got their CRANE for free?  Or how about their insurance premium every 1/4? It's $21. Do you know how much a couple ascenders are? A grigri, static climbing rope, foot loops, a quickdraw, carabiners, etc. The job isn't just tightening a nut.


Reminds me of the old joke where the guy comes in and kicks the engine and it runs.

The guy complains about the $200 bill, "For you just to kick my motor"

"No," the guy says. "I kicked it for free, knowing *where* to kick it cost you $200."


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Siamese said:


> I took the boat to them and they used their crane to replace the sheaves in the mast head. When I say it was 10 seconds to screw on the knurled nut, I mean 10 seconds. You don't think that's a rip-off? That was just one item on a much larger bill.


Honestly if someone went up your mast and did _anything_ for $20 I think you did OK.

One local yard here has a flat fee of $100 to replace a masthead light.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

JimMcGee said:


> Honestly if someone went up your mast and did _anything_ for $20 I think you did OK.
> 
> One local yard here has a flat fee of $100 to replace a masthead light.


I think what he's saying is that he already was paying them to run a guy up to replace the sheaves. He asked them to screw the coax back on while they were up there already and they added on an extra $21 to the bill.

Am I reading that right?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I would be more than willing to pay for the yard to do some things if they made the price reasonable. Especially for the unskilled things like bottom painting or waxing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Siamese said:


> I took the boat to them and they used their crane to replace the sheaves in the mast head. When I say it was 10 seconds to screw on the knurled nut, I mean 10 seconds. You don't think that's a rip-off? That was just one item on a much larger bill.


I've got thousands of stories of rip offs, but none are for 20 bucks to do something I didn't do myself. You say 10 seconds and I suppose, if really that simple, it would have been good business practice for them to just do it, while doing other work for you. Would you have been appreciative, or did you expect the freebee. Would love to hear their side of the story. In the end, I'll pay anyone $20 to avoid going up the stick anytime.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

In certain situations I am with you Smack. Like an job that will send me to chiropractic for an $800 shot and therapy or when a pro who lives on boat next to me gives me huge discounted rates cuz I help him at times with tools and other liquid assistance... And I always feel good afterwards. Learning new skills has its place but also it's limitations...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

It's cool to see the different jobs each of us would farm out or do ourselves. We all have different areas of skill and/or willingness to wing it - and areas of "no freakin' way".

Cool thread.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm swapping my wife's bookkeeping time for a boat cleaner's time. Even better, not only do I not have to pay, I don't have to lift a finger.


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## tolvstad (Nov 20, 2014)

I don't think paying someone to do a good solid professional job on any equipment is ever a problem in either a hi tech or menial task.

My pet peeve is troubleshooting. If I hire someone claiming to be a professional to fix a problem I can't figure out and they can't figure out, I better not get a bill. I don't appreciate people using a situation like this as a means to educate themselves on my dime. If I am gonna pay someone to waste hours checking things and NOT fix the problem I will hire my grandma....she needs the money......


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> It's cool to see the different jobs each of us would farm out or do ourselves. We all have different areas of skill and/or willingness to wing it - and areas of "no freakin' way".
> 
> Cool thread.


My willingness to do some jobs can be measured in the mg of naproxen and ounces of rum required afterward.



Great thread Smack. What I always found amazing is how little DIY the power boat crowd in our marina is willing to do.

When I replaced my own motor mounts the guys on my dock were in a state of shock.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

JimMcGee said:


> My willingness to do some jobs can be measured in the mg of naproxen and ounces of rum required afterward.


I feel that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why if the yard would get the price for just rolling on some bottom paint or waxing the boat to $300 I would pay it.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I started out doing all my own work so I could get to know my systems, but as my family grew and I work ate away more of my free time, I've been paying to have more done. Law of diminishing returns rules. But I still wax and bottom paint. Easy and quick grunt work.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

seaner97 said:


> I started out doing all my own work so I could get to know my systems, but as my family grew and I work ate away more of my free time, I've been paying to have more done. Law of diminishing returns rules. But I still wax and bottom paint. Easy and quick grunt work.


This is great... I don't think I will ever be out in the blue.. but if I had the intentions, I think it would be important to know how to do anything and everything that would needed to be done on the boat.

No matter how well your navsat works, you are the one who will need to put up your mast when it falls off


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