# Paradigm changing boats



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Just finished reading the full/fin keel debate and learned alot. Many noted you get the whole package and the keel is just part of it. Wonder which boats our esteemed panel think changed the game and why? e.g.
Valiant40/42- you can sail the world and expect to come home
Tayana 37- you can do it and not be a millionaire
Prout 39- you can do it on a multi hull
Deerfoot- 2 of you can do it on a big boat
Dana- you can do it on a small boat
J 24- the average guy can go fast
Cherubini- narrow and full keel doesn't mean slow
F27- go fast, fold it up and go home
Boreal 44- put all the weight in the middle then who needs a keel for a good ride
ETAP- who says only Boston Whalers are sink proof
Swan 46- it can be fast,beautiful and take what the sea hands out
etc.
All the best to you all


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'd add the Pearson Triton(?).. pioneering the whole fiberglass recreational sailing era...

Nice list. And nice fleet too, Outbound 46 AND a PSC 34? that on purpose or is one of them for sale?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

outbound said:


> Just finished reading the full/fin keel debate and learned alot. Many noted you get the whole package and the keel is just part of it. Wonder which boats our esteemed panel think changed the game and why? e.g.
> 
> Not sure how esteemed I am but will give it a shot. My sense is that paradigms don't get shifted very often so there will not be a long list.
> 
> ...




I think it is important not to confuse iconic vessels with game changers. Among the former would be boats like the Bermuda 40 and the Freedom 40. Among the latter would be Salty Tiger (hope I remember the name correctly), the fiest glass boat to win the Bermuda Race in 1969. After that plastic boats had to be taken seriously. Good topic to discuss.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

you're definitley right. Wondering what's your list. ? 
bougainvillea- glass has nothing on metal for elegance
BCC- maybe our forefather's knew something about the sea
Seguin 44- hull form can bring you to weather
Was thinking that being both representing different thinking and iconic changed the game but agree with you that your comments show deeper knowledge. Please share it.

Yup- you're right again the Crealock is for sale. Sweet little boat but not enough room for the bride's hair dryer and curlers. LOL
Tx.


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

The American Sailboat Hall of Fame


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Cal 40 - brought surfing in sailboats to the world. 

Ganbare 35 - Gets forgotten as "just an IOR boat" but it really changed the way hull/keel interaction was viewed


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

Valiant: "It will cost you an arm and a leg, but NEVER your life."


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Ok, I will play

I will say that even if I find today the Boreal a lot better than the OVNI the true paradigm of that boat is the OVNI. Maybe the 43, the one Cornell had.

Jimmy Cornell answers questions about OVNI yachts | Cornell Sailing Books

The Folkboat should be on that list no doubt and probably the Amel Maramu too.

Probably the Halberg-Rassy 312. Do you know that they had made 700 boats of that model?

The 1976 First 30 designed by Andre Mauric

Le First 30, André Mauric, le bienfaiteur du chantier Bénéteau. | All Boats Avenue

and probably tomorrow I will find out more but I guess that even counting only iconic boats, it is going to be a long one


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Piver Nimble. 
Folkboat.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Just finished reading the full/fin keel debate and learned alot. Many noted you get the whole package and the keel is just part of it. Wonder which boats our esteemed panel think changed the game and why? e.g.
> Valiant40/42- you can sail the world and expect to come home
> Tayana 37- you can do it and not be a millionaire
> Prout 39- you can do it on a multi hull
> ...


I guess the game has always been changing. Prior to those, a big design change was Sparkmen and Stevens FINESTERRE. Compared to the fastest ocean racers in the day, it was fat(outrageous beam of 11'+), it's design priority was to be a comfortable cruising boat first, racer second(cruiser/racer). Even worse, it had a centerboard in a stub keel(the owner had shallow water sailing in mind). Some of these features helped it's handicap in the CCA era.

The captain(Mitchell) outsailed the fleet but much was blamed on the new design as it won the Marion Bermuda race, not once, but three seasons in a row.

Then Mitchell went off and cruised it for years. This is one of those designs that looks like it's moving even on jack stands.







This is a sistership, FIDELIO, and still competes(via handicap) in classic races today. This is the design that started the run of boats like the Block Island 40, Bermuda 40, Bristol 40, and many others(including my boat, Alden challenger).


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Great boats.Can anyone think of the boats that changed the thinking engineering wise. ?first synthetic cored hull, first rigid sail, , etc.?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

This is just like debating who first sang Rock and Roll.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

*Jeanneau Sangria*

Outbound this thread is a great idea but I guess it can be even better. I have a suggestion:

You, with the collaboration of the members trough discussion will have on the first post the actualized names of the boats that are selected. On the boat file you will refer the post nº that had gave origin to it and the poster that originally proposed the boat that was selected has to have on its post information and photos or movies about the boat. Preferably a photo showing the complete hull with the underwater body.

Of course this will represent a lot of work for you but it will make this a reference instructive and very interesting thread, one that should be sticky.

What do you think guys?

I will post one on this terms.

Jeanneau Sangria

Many don't know that Jeanneau was for more than a decade strictly a motor boat company. Back in 1968 the founder, Henri Jeanneau, that had raced motorboats, wanted to build also sailingboats. He went to one of the greater NA of his time Van den Stadt that had designed the Storm. The boat was heavy and not fast and Jeanneau was not satisfied.

His commercial director advised him to make a design command to a new and very talented young NA from La Rochelle, Philippe Harlé....and the Sangria was born.

The Sagria (7.60) is an incredibly innovative design considering 1969. The boat with slight alterations stayed in production till 1984 and about 3000 boats were made. If this is not the cruiser that was made in bigger numbers it is certainly among the few that were made in so large number.

It was an offshore boat that even if not a cruiser racer could do very well in offshore races. Take a look at how modern that hull was:



















Information about the boat:

Caractristiques du voilier Sangria

http://www.sangriaquilamis.org/Temporaire/essai__jeanneau_sangria_novembre_1976_bateaux_150.pdf
















A word about Philippe Harlé. It was one of the first NA do develop an interest for solo racing. He made one of the first mini transat races (when all those guys were considered raving mad) and with the knowledge that he had and the one we learned on the race designed another boat that would become an icon to solo and sportive ocean sailors, the Coco, built by Archambault:

Redirect by ulimit.com

The Coco was the first boat of its type to be produced and made in large numbers. It was also the predecessor of the Pogo in what regards philosophy and overall shape.

Philipe Harlé had an unfortunately not long life (1931-1991) but a very productive one and 14000 boats were made according to his plans. He was also the mentor of probably the biggest Architect of the next generation, Jean Marie Finot, that not by accident, was the one that designed the Pogo.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

TomMaine said:


> I guess the game has always been changing. Prior to those, a big design change was Sparkmen and Stevens FINESTERRE. Compared to the fastest ocean racers in the day, it was fat(outrageous beam of 11'+), it's design priority was to be a comfortable cruising boat first, racer second(cruiser/racer). Even worse, it had a centerboard in a stub keel(the owner had shallow water sailing in mind). Some of these features helped it's handicap in the CCA era.
> 
> The captain(Mitchell) outsailed the fleet but much was blamed on the new design as it won the Marion Bermuda race, not once, but three seasons in a row.
> 
> ...


Let's not forget Dorade as well - Stephens first design - changed yachts from basically fishing schooners into "modern" yachts. Also gave us the Dorade vent.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> This is just like debating who first sang Rock and Roll.


Not open to debate - Bill Haley & the Comets with Rock Around the Clock.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

outbound said:


> Great boats.Can anyone think of the boats that changed the thinking engineering wise. ?first synthetic cored hull, first rigid sail, , etc.?


A Vancouver built boat - Porpoise, a one off Discovery 47, was reputed to be the first Airex cored hull in the late 60's. Pic attached of it sailing locally.

DISCOVERY 47 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Fiery Cross - the first canting keel boat

Olson 30 - the first ocean going mini-sled

Hobie 16


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Australia II.... For several reasons


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

great idea PCP. Unfortunatey still have to work for a living Putting it away for the cruising kitty. Please take this thread where you think it should go. Very impressed that folks jumped on the engineering concept. On call - so sorry didn't respond sooner.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Herreshoff's early multihull _Amaryllis_ (1876) should have moved heaven and earth -- and would have, had the reactionary fools of the yawt-ting set not reacted so violently to it.


















Modern, much?!?! After the design's suppression, it really wasn't until Tabarly's _Pen Duick IV_ that ocean-racing multis stormed back to the fore.










Guess what Tabarly was working on in 1976?










Could be the next paradigm shift.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

bobmcgov said:


> Herreshoff's early multihull _Amaryllis_ (1876) should have moved heaven and earth -- and would have, had the reactionary fools of the yawt-ting set not reacted so violently to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice post. I agree

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SloopJonB said:


> A Vancouver built boat - Porpoise, a one off Discovery 47, was reputed to be the first Airex cored hull in the late 60's. Pic attached of it sailing locally.
> 
> DISCOVERY 47 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


It was a discovery I did not know that boat that is very modern for a 1969 cruiser. Pity that the picture is a bit misleading. it looks a centerboarder but in fact it is a deep fin keel boat with 2.10m. A big draft for that time and an usually one today. Do you know if many were made? Probably not as it happens sometimes with boats that are way ahead of its time.










Regards

Paulo


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

How about "America"?! Changed yacht racing forever.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Stumble said:


> Fiery Cross - the first canting keel boat
> 
> Olson 30 - the first ocean going mini-sled
> 
> Hobie 16


This certainly comes as a surprise:

*In his book Sensible Cruising Designs, L. Francis Herreshoff promulgated the concept of a slim, canting-keel, 45-foot cruiser as the "ultimate sailing machine." In 1957, Kiwi designer Jim Young built the boat out of kauri wood; with Herreshoff's permission, he made some slight alterations to the design. "He added a foot of beam, fortunately, expanding it from six feet to seven feet," says Gary. "It made her somewhat habitable down below."

Though Fiery Cross was New Zealand's first canting-keel raceboat, after only a couple of years the boat was given a fixed keel to comply with the racing rules of the time.
*

New Zealand Classic | Cruising World

On "modern" times the concept was reinvented by Pascal Conq that was the one to use it successively in racing boats, I mean canting keels as we know them today. Him and his senior partner Finot (and some other French designers) were the ones that developed a reliable system as we know it today, working on Open60, that were much the testing boats were was made all the extensive testing to make them reliable.

Canting keels : A 30 years story ! | finot-conq architectes navals

Looking at Fierry Cross system I have some doubts regarding its reliability but then at the time they do not have the technology to do better than that.

I agree that the boat is not only a breakthrough in design as it is very modern even if it escapes completely the concept of a planning boat. I am quite sure the boat is still a very good boat upwind.

It certainly deserves its place on this thread. The boat:





































some more interesting information on the words of the designer, Jim Young:

*In L. Frances Herreshoff's book Common Sense of Yacht Design, he advocated the system of canting the keel to windward to get the stability of a beamy boat, but in a narrow hull and without the drag of wide beam.

I thought that a great idea. It would add greatly to the sensation of sailing, great for cruising or reaching up to Kawau Island and up the northern coast. So I built her with that set-up in mind and you can see in the photograph of the hull being turned over of a hollow where the keel fin was recessed. *










*I knew that if you wanted speed then the boat would have to be long. And to keep costs down the hull would have to be narrow, plus having light gear with a light rig and everything else light and inexpensive. And the type of hull itself was the same as Herreschoff had advocated in his book, a double ended hull.

I had some correspondence with him because the boat he drew was the same length, 45 feet, but had only 6 foot (13.7 x 1.8 m) beam with 6.5 foot (2 m) draught. And I wanted to make this boat 7 foot (2.13 m) beam and so I wrote to him saying I was interested in his ideas but wanted to increase beam and asked him what he thought of that. He was full of enthusiasm and pleased to see someone carry out his ideas."*

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

outbound said:


> great idea PCP. Unfortunatey still have to work for a living Putting it away for the cruising kitty. Please take this thread where you think it should go. Very impressed that folks jumped on the engineering concept. On call - so sorry didn't respond sooner.


Hi, thanks for the confidence.

Unfortunately even if I had post some posts related to the way I think the thread should go, I mean regarding boats posted by other posters I do not have time to do it also.

In fact this has been fun and I mean also the interesting sailboat thread. I like to do it but it is a kind of addicted thing that takes my time away.

Very soon I will ended this type of participation since this is just a good excuse not to make other more disagreeable things I have to do, more important things.

This thread is a very interesting idea and It would be very interesting if someone had the time to explore the full potential of it. Not me.

Best regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

PCP said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> New Zealand Classic | Cruising World
> 
> Canting keels : A 30 years story ! | finot-conq architectes navals


From the overall look of that boat I get the idea that Bill Garden had it in the back of his mind when he designed Oceanus for himself. More beam and a conventional keel but very much the same look - long, narrow and light. The ends look the same, as do the deck structures.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

PCP said:


> It was a discovery I did not know that boat that is very modern for a 1969 cruiser. Pity that the picture is a bit misleading. it looks a centerboarder but in fact it is a deep fin keel boat with 2.10m. A big draft for that time and an usually one today. Do you know if many were made? Probably not as it happens sometimes with boats that are way ahead of its time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


AFAIK only that one had the deckhouse style. I know of at least one other that was a center cockpit (pic attached). It WAS a fast boat in its day - a race winner.

There was also a 42' version that had both deck styles.

Porpoise was the boat I referred to a while back that I looked into buying years ago. The owner was selling it because at 90 Y.O. it was becoming too much for him to singlehand.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

To me, boats that initially came out with a different design than the norm, but eventually changed how sailers looked at things. I was reading an article in a local rag yesterday, showed a IIRC 65' Swan that won one of the first V70 style races, still cruises etc with 185K miles under its hull. Shape is very close etc to todays cruisers. Todays new V65 that will be used, will probably be the new shape of cruisers in 10-15 yrs. 

One can see this in boats like the Bene first 30, Mumm/farr 30, to a degree the Elan 310/350, Jeanneau sunfast 3200, and bene figaroo also. 

The J24 to me is one, as Johnsons did not design the boat to a rule, just to make a fast fun sailing boat. The Cal 40 could also be in this vain to a degree also. 

Also, the race rules are allowing certain styles of boats that are more seaworthy to a degree too. A compared to the later IOR models with pinched sterns etc. In the end, it is all good. Easier to sail, comfortable, dry, fast etc. 

Then if you look at boats from different area's of the world, you see designs that worked in those weather style environments. Proa's in the S pacific, dugout canoes here in the NW US and SW BC/Canada area, Kayaks in alaska, double enders in the Norway/finland area, wherry in New england........I'm sure I am missing some local designs, but hopefully the reader can add some. 

Battle ships styles, how about the Greek ships with a WL longer than the deck so they could ram another boat and tip it over! Lots of interesting how things go


Marty


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

blt2ski said:


> I was reading an article in a local rag yesterday, showed a IIRC 65' Swan that won one of the first V70 style races, still cruises etc with 185K miles under its hull. Shape is very close etc to todays cruisers.
> 
> Marty


That boat was Sayula and the race was the original Whitbread RTW race. The boat got rolled 360 degrees at least once in the Southern Ocean, came up with rig intact and went on to win. 

It was obviously well designed, well built and beautiful but it was a fairly conventional boat for its time. S&S were pretty conservative by then in the context of racing boats - they only had a couple of more years at the top before Peterson, Holland, Frers et.al. took the lead in IOR design.

It certainly wasn't a paradigm shifter.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Mac 26X/M. Any boat that could convert power boaters to sailing and vice versa is a paradigm shifting boat. You may not like the spork, but it has changed the sailing marketplace and the sailing world for a whole bunch of families.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Somebody already mentioned the Westsail 32. I think for a lot of people that was a major game changer. The idea of being able to sail the world in a bullet proof, economical boat was a new concept. The fact that a lot of them were bought as bare hulls and many were never completed by the original owners aside, it still opened up world cruising to the masses (well, relatively speaking). 
I think the other one I would add to the list would be the Thunderbird, still lot's of them around and active fleets racing.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I agree regarding the T-bird, if only because it demonstrated that a reverse sheer didn't have to be ugly. but, having said that, I think the Thunderbird's forerunners, the Controversy boats, may be the paradigm changers because they led the way:

The Rest of the Designs


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

bljones said:


> Mac 26X/M. Any boat that could convert power boaters to sailing and vice versa is a paradigm shifting boat. You may not like the spork, but it has changed the sailing marketplace and the sailing world for a whole bunch of families.


aaarrrggghhh.... have to agree with this one (going to look for mouthwash...)



bljones said:


> I agree regarding the T-bird, if only because it demonstrated that a reverse sheer didn't have to be ugly. but, having said that, I think the Thunderbird's forerunners, the Controversy boats, may be the paradigm changers because they led the way:
> 
> The Rest of the Designs


Thanks for that, bl... hadn't heard of them before.. do you have the year they started? Are they all plywood projects - some appear to be soft chine designs..


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

What about the big sell out? Yacht designer Robert Perry said that, "If you were like me, you probably did a near retch the first time you saw an Out Island 41." Annapolis naval architect Jack Horner reacted with disappointment with the introduction of the Out Island. He thought that Charley Morgan had sold out, "I thought Morgan had betrayed his traditional roots and sacrificed elegance and balance for volume and headroom." The Morgan Out Island was the most prolific in production for a boat over forty feet for many years and the first to raise the freeboard to the top of the cabin trunk that became popular. What was considered gauche in the seventies is now surpased with the high freeboards of the Hunters, Beneteaus and Catalinas now. 'Not a trend approved by all, but a true paradigm shift.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Faster, some history of the Controversy boats can be found here:

butler


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

Macgregor has made sailing very accessible with their entire line of boats and continues to this today. The 26M/X set the bar in the trailer sailor world and has no equal.

I also believe the Macgregor 65 is the fastest production monohull to date.

Watch a boat ramp and Macgregor after Macgregor will roll down it - what a legacy.



bljones said:


> Mac 26X/M. Any boat that could convert power boaters to sailing and vice versa is a paradigm shifting boat. You may not like the spork, but it has changed the sailing marketplace and the sailing world for a whole bunch of families.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

HeartsContent said:


> ...
> 
> I also believe the Macgregor 65 is the fastest production monohull to date.
> 
> ....


There are many production boats way faster.

Regards

Paulo


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm curious - what?

In it's price range and run, I'm not aware of any faster Than the Macgregor 65. There are faster pure racing boats but not production cruisers.



PCP said:


> There are many production boats way faster.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

THe santa cruz 52 and 70 were equal to slightly faster, and a minute faster for the 70. Schock 40, a production cruisable canting keel on par, A number of Swans in the 50-70' range, not to mention the 45 and NYC club swan 42. J145 nd 160, Nelson Merek 68, to name a few. Not sure ALL are in the same price range, but all have 0 to -60+ phrf handicaps, the MG65 is 0 to -40 from looking at a us sailing rating chart.

The santa cruz versions really started the fast is fun part too.

marty


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Yes.. The SC 50 probably deserves a mention here...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Faster said:


> Yes.. The SC 50 probably deserves a mention here...


From a production boat standpoint but Merlin really started the big sled phenomenon. 27 knots in the Transpac in the 70's.  In the Molokai channel near the end of the race they ran away from a Coast Guard cutter that was sent to escort them. 

It's a fairly routine speed for the big boats now but then it was strictly the province of boats like Hobie cats and rarely even for them.

The attached is from '77 - they have virtually sailed it under like an old China Clipper.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Is my take on this wrong, to be paradigm-shifting doesn't the design have to have a profound impact on what follows in sailing? Herreshof's catamaran was quite remarkable, but sailing in the decades that followed was not materially affected by it (perhaps sadly). On the other hand, the Westsail 32 opened the door that allows me to be sitting on my boat in South Africa, even though I have never had any interest in buying one. It shifted the paradigm. The Cal 40 made downwind sailing faster and that is useful, but not all that many boats followed that lead. Perhaps we need more categories of impact?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

HeartsContent said:


> I'm curious - what?
> 
> In it's price range and run, I'm not aware of any faster Than the Macgregor 65. There are faster pure racing boats but not production cruisers.


You have made an a*bsolute statesmen*: *"also believe the Macgregor 65 is the fastest production monohull to date".*

no price range was mentioned and no size was mentioned.

There are many production cruising boats much faster than the Mac Gregor. what makes a production boat is that it is offered by a brand as a model opposed of a one off, an exclusive boat that someone hires directly a NA to make to specifications that are provided by the client, an only and exclusive yacht.

Just posting some brands look at the size of the boats and to their characteristics and you will conclude that there are many small production luxurious cruisers much faster that are the MacGregor 65:

SwanLine models - History, descriptions, techinical details and images

Southern Wind Shipyard

Shipman: Choose a shipman

http://www.comaryachts.it/Default.aspx

X-65

Solaris by Serigi

Wally // Sail

Garcia Yachting

CNB Yachts

ADVANCED - Italian Yachts

Mylius Yachts, Barche a vela, Fast Cruiser

MURTICYACHTS - Home

Zeydon

Vismara Vela

Barca a Vela Sly 61

Gieffe Yachts

Aluminum sailboats, boats, and sail yachts for blue water ocean cruising and round the world voyage

::: Kelly Yachts :::

Salona 60 - Salona Yachts

Hanse Yachts

I am not sure if all on this list will be faster than the MacGregor 65 but I have not any doubt that many will be much faster.

Regards

Paulo


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

So many great boats in this thread!

Ted Brewer wrote an article on my blog about 50 years of cruising boat evolution that includes a lot of boats that might fit in this thread.

Among those mentioned are _Finisterre_, the Rhodes designed _Bounty II_ (very early FRP hull), Block Island/Bermuda 40, Alberg's Pearson Triton, and Lapworth's Cal 40.

There's also Brewer's Goderich/Huromic 35, which may be the first radius bilge metal hull sailboat.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Two relative new boats that had an huge importance in what regards the way two concepts were looked and used. Not properly created them but make them popular and after these boats many others were made around this criteria...and many more are still coming on the market.

Both fast, both beachable, one of them designed as a long range small cruiser the other as a polivalent cruiser. Curiously while both are fast neither of them was thought as a race cruiser and no attention was given to any improvement regarding possible rating. Both rate very badly

The two concepts are a swing very deep ballasted keel on a beamy hull adapted to solo sailing and the other twin keels but designed to perform very well with low draft on a small boat also adapted to solo sailing plus the possibility of being sailed from the interior. The RM reintroduced in the market a technology that was forgotten, the use of marine plywood, now mixed with modern materials like epoxy and kevlar.

The RM 1050 is a Marc Lombard design and the Pogo 10.50 a Finot design.

http://www.marclombard.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=36&Itemid=75&lang=en#RM1050

http://www.finot.com/bateaux/batproduction/structures/pogo1050/pogo1050.htm


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

killarney_sailor said:


> Is my take on this wrong, to be paradigm-shifting doesn't the design have to have a profound impact on what follows in sailing? Herreshof's catamaran was quite remarkable, but sailing in the decades that followed was not materially affected by it (perhaps sadly). On the other hand, the Westsail 32 opened the door that allows me to be sitting on my boat in South Africa, even though I have never had any interest in buying one. It shifted the paradigm. The Cal 40 made downwind sailing faster and that is useful, but not all that many boats followed that lead. Perhaps we need more categories of impact?


That's why I said _Amaryllis_ *might* have changed sailing, but didn't. To be fair to the people who condemned the design in 1876, there is no way that boat could have survived a beating, not with spruce spars for the bowsprit and crossbeams. The forces on big multis are insane. It wasn't until aircraft alloys and carbon fiber that Herreshoff's vision could be implemented with any sort of margin, almost a hundred years later. Even then, those boats can fail catastrophically -- Alan Colas was lost racing _PD4_; and many big cats and tris continue to struggle with the engineering demands that come with their speeds & form stability.

Still, the paradigm _has_ shifted. _Banque Pop_ just rounded the world in 45.5 days -- two weeks faster than any powered vessel; maxi tris are the boat of choice for smashing records, and they all look rather like_PD4_. And apparently, the America's Cup is now the provence of bleeding-edge mutihulls. Look at the AC45s, then look again at _Amaryllis_. Nat's ideas were not a blind alley but just had to wait until materials science made them feasible.


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

PCP said:


> You have made an a*bsolute statesmen*: *"also believe the Macgregor 65 is the fastest production monohull to date".*
> 
> no price range was mentioned and no size was mentioned.
> 
> Paulo


Wow ... ok - should have seen that coming. 

A quick search on Yachtworld showed $160-$290 US for a Macgregor 65.

Remember, we are taking Paradigm changing, not just list of very expensive boats.

Macgregor is paradigm changing as Roger did it at an affordable price opening the sport to many that would not be able to participate. Add easily trailerable and he's had a huge impact on sailing - more than most.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

HeartsContent said:


> A quick search on Yachtworld showed $160-$290 US for a Macgregor 65.
> 
> .


Cool.... a 65 footer for less than $300 !! I'll take two (you pay the moorage unless it's based on beam )


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

HeartsContent said:


> Wow ... ok - should have seen that coming.
> 
> A quick search on Yachtworld showed $160-$290 US for a Macgregor 65.
> 
> ...


Ok! I was not saying that the MacGregor 65 is not a great boat neither that it did not deserve a place on the thread, just made a small observation regarding not being the fastest production boat to date.

Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

killarney_sailor said:


> Is my take on this wrong, to be paradigm-shifting doesn't the design have to have a profound impact on what follows in sailing? Herreshof's catamaran was quite remarkable, but sailing in the decades that followed was not materially affected by it (perhaps sadly). On the other hand, the Westsail 32 opened the door that allows me to be sitting on my boat in South Africa, even though I have never had any interest in buying one. It shifted the paradigm. The Cal 40 made downwind sailing faster and that is useful, but not all that many boats followed that lead. Perhaps we need more categories of impact?


Overall you are exactly right - that's what a paradigm (hate that word!) shift is.

I think you're wrong about the Cal 40 though - it had a very big effect on the racers and later, cruisers that followed - pure fin keel and balanced spade rudder along with greatly reduced displacement. It opened peoples eyes to what was possible in a seaworthy boat. It did a lot more than sail downhill fast.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bobmcgov said:


> _Banque Pop_ just rounded the world in 45.5 days -- two weeks faster than any powered vessel;


 I can remember when *200 days* was broken!

Six weeks to sail around the world - incredible.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Bluenose- shifted the paradigm that workboats can't be fast and beautiful in addition to useful.
has anyone mentioned the Hobie cat yet? It changed the world and made cats a viable and enviable choice for sportboaters.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Gary Hoyt's Freedom boats. Without his work on unstayed rigs and carbon fiber masts, there would be no Nonsuch line and no Hunter Visions.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not sure at what point a paradigm shift occurs. Everyone credit Igor Sikorsky with the paradigm shift of the helicopter, but he was far from the first one to even fly one, let alone design one.


400 BC, Chinese children playing with bamboo flying toys.
1480 Leonardo da Vinci designed an "aerial screw" flying machine.
1861 Gustave d'Amecourt demonstrated a small steam powered helicopter made of aluminum. It didn't get off the ground, but it was the first use of the word "helicopter".
1877 Enrico Forlanini in a park in Milan flew an unmanned steam driven helicopter 13 meters in the air. It stayed aloft for 20 seconds.
1878 in France Emmanuel Dieuaide flew a model more than 12 meters (40 feet) high for 20 seconds. It had two opposite spinning rotors and was powered through a hose from a boiler on the ground.
1885 Thomas Edison in the US built a helicopter but it failed to take off, exploding and burning one of his workers.
1901 Ján Bahýľ, a Slovak, used an internal combustion engine (petrol) to fly a model helicopter that flew 0.5 meters (1.6 feet) above the ground. In 1905 his helicopter flew 1.5 km at a height of 4 meters (13 feet).
1907, two French brothers, Jacques and Louis Brequet developed the Gyroplane No.1. The plane lifted its pilot up into the air about two feet (0.6 m) for a minute but it needed two people on the ground to keep it balanced.
1907 French inventor Paul Cornu designed and built a Cornu helicopter that lifted its inventor to 1 foot (0.3 m) and remained aloft for 20 seconds. This machine was later abandoned.
1908, Thomas Edison patented his own design for a gasoline powered helicopter with box kites attached to a mast, but it never flew.
1912 William J. Purvis and Charles A. Wilson applied for and received a patent for a "Flying Machine" of the helicopter type on June 4, 1912. With Purvis at the controls it flew 20 feet into the air.
1924, in Argentine Raúl Pateras Pescara's helicopter No. 3 could fly for up ten minutes. He also developed the idea of tilting the engine and blades to make the machine fly forward.
1927 Abert Gillis von Baumhauer received the first patent for a true working helicopter.
1937 The German Fw 61 broke all the helicopter world records and several of the aircraft flew during World War 2.
In the US LePage had the patent rights for the German Fw 61, and he built the XR-1.
Igor Sikorsky was competing with LePage to build the first military helicopter. Sigorsky developed a single small rotor on the tail to keep his VS-300 steady. His later model, the R-4, got military orders for over 400 before the end of the World War 2.
At the same time Arthur Young was working for Bell Aircraft to eventually develop the Bell 47, the most popular civilian model for the next 30 years.

I think the old adage, "history is written by the victor" was never more true.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

An editorial from 1876 on _Amaryllis_, for your reading pleasure:


> A REVOLUTIONARY YACHT.​ The defeated yachtsmen in yesterday's race are entitled to sincere commiseration. It is a well-established fact among Americans of a yachting turn of mind, that the American yacht embodies in her model all the fairy tales of science and the long results of time. It is supposed to be almost the perfect model for speed under canvas, and it is supposed that any improvement on it will be merely an extension of it. Yet yesterday all the yachts of this approved model were beaten ridiculously by a vessel of outlandish model and rig. She is literally 'outlandish,' for according to the description of her the nearest approach to her afloat is the famous 'flying proa' of the Ladrone Islands, of the speed of which wonderful stories are told. Nobody protested against entering her for the race yesterday, for the reason probably that everybody expected to beat her, but everybody seems to have objected to being beaten by her. Next time we advise our yachtsmen to ponder the words of MILTON, And think twice ere they venture to "Sport with Amaryllis in the shade."
> 
> In form the entry seems to have been perfectly fair, since the yachts were taxed only according to length, and were permitted as much extension in all other directions as their owners chose. But in fact, it is clearly unfair to race boats of radically different models, and built for entirely different purposes, against each other. The model of the Amaryllis evidently would not do for a sea going vessel, and nothing in the way of the practical 'improvement of naval architecture ' which yachts and yacht clubs are supposed to promote, can come out of a flying proa. But on the other hand, none of the boats engaged in the race with her are supposed to be good for much except to engage in such races. The tendency of yacht-racing is everywhere to-produce 'racing machines;' in ENGLAND by narrowing, deepening and ballasting yachts out of all reason, and here by making broad and shallow 'skimming-dishes.' In either case the result is not a good type of sea-going vessel. So the owners of racing-machines have really no reason to complain that somebody should invent a racing-machine to beat them. This the inventor of the Amaryllis has done. It behooves the owners of the large schooners, however, to take counsel together lest somebody should build an Amaryllis a hundred feet long and convert their crafts into useless lumber. It is a matter quite as important as keeping the America's Cup, and may demand quite as ingenious and elaborate devices as were put in force against Mr. ASHBURY.


Source: Anon. (Editorial). "A Revolutionary Yacht." The World, June 24, 1876, p. 4.

From this web page.

Remarkably clear-sighted and prescient.


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