# seeking first boat



## erevllocin (Aug 13, 2010)

I am looking for my first sailboat. Have sailed 30 to 40 times but never skippered on my own. Seeking Coast Guard certification in September. Have always been enamored with classical long overhang lines (Morris, Herrschoff, Cape Dory....). I have three women in my family who have not done much sailing but are enthusiastic crew.

I need to decide between a day sailer under 25' or a small cruiser under 40. Nevertheless, both need to be trailered. I believe I should choose a sloop for sailing ease. Either choice needs to have high resale value for upgrade.

Will sail in Virginia and Nova Scotia.

Please critique this any way you want. I am a dry sponge for in put.

Thank you,

Jamie


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

*Talk to lots of people and keep looking at boats*

Jamie,

You do have some good relevant experience. What kinds of boats have you sailed?

Sailing on lots of boats and talking to lots of boat owners is a good starting point. There are lots of boats -- cheap in the current economy -- and so you shouldn't be in a hurry. That is, unless maybe you have some particular reason for getting your USCG ticket soon, like a job opportunity that you need all the sea service time and ticket for as soon as you can get it.

Owning a boat is a whole different game from crewing, of course. For those who'd rather spend all their time sailing, maintenance can be the "dark side" of sailing. But other people love to fiddle and perfect and mess with boats all the time. Which are you?

Before anyone can go too far with advice, it would really help if you can narrow down the "mission", "job description", or "role" of your boat. Is it day sailing, voyaging, local racing, ocean racing, cruising across the ocean, entertaining clients in a marina, discovering new horizons, going really fast, feeling really secure, being able to take anything, being able to outrun anything? Will you want a boat that's really simple to sail by yourself without much attention? Or do you want a boat with lots of controls and tweeks and delicate adjustments to balance and harmonize? Is it important that the boat be tougher than the crew and able to take care of you? How important is a comfortable motion to you? What is the weather like where you would be sailing? Will your sailing be seasonal or in all weather? Hot or cold climates?

How many creature comforts do you need? Which are critical? How much are you into gizmos? How much time and money are you willing to spend to keep all the gadgets working? What is your tolerance for sailing with some things not working and how do you rate yourself at cobbling together emergency repairs?

Will you be by yourself much of the time or will your crew always be there? How skilled will they be? Can you train some of them to do everyone's jobs or will you be the only one who can do some of the critical jobs like docking the boat or getting the trim just right? Will you be teaching others to sail -- and have to assume your crew know nothing and need to be able to handle the boat by yourself?

There is no one perfect boat, but some boats are good at more than one thing and some are brilliant compromises.

As an example, you mentioned that you like boats with a certain classical look, those with long overhangs. Presumably that means that you don't like boats that look like fat pigs, even though they have tons of space and usually lots of comforts on board. And remember that to get the same amount of space, a classic looking boat will have to be lots longer than the "marina queens" and the marina or mooring operator is going to charge you for those long overhangs.

You mentioned that your boat will have to be trailered and you mentioned boats up to 40'. Most people don't consider boats beyond around 27' to be what they call trailerable. Sure, some people with good towing vehicles and trailers will transport large boats themselves, but it takes some skill and guts. Unless you have something like a GMC 5500/6500 or some other humongously powerful vehicle you'll be limited to something far smaller than 40'.

A lot of 30-footers run around 10,000 lbs., and trailers and gear can add several thousand more lbs. This sort of load can push the ability of even a superduty diesel dually. So what's the capacity of your towing vehicle? How much can you spend on a towing vehicle and maintenance? Do you want to have to deal with wide-load towing regulations? How comfortable would you be with danging a 40-foot mast in the sky above your boat -- or with paying someone big buck$$$ to rig your boat?

If you go with an all-woman crew, you might want to look at ergonomics more closely than some young guys do, depending upon your crew's fitness and stature. Booms that are hung way up high, big anchors without windlasses, really tall cabins with hard-to-reach handholds, etc., might not be popular with your crew. There are solutions to all such issues; they just want to be thought through.

Sailing is many different things, and a sailor's interests can change dramatically over time. Someone once amended the saying, 
"There is no one perfect boat" to "... except for the next one."
Pat


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

I meant "dangling" the mast. But you might say something stronger than "dang" at the mast and boom and the rest of the rig at some point!


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## erevllocin (Aug 13, 2010)

*first sailboat*

Pat, Sorry for the delay. I just realized that I did not reply properly on the 14th AM. Here it is:

Pat, what a terrific reply, requiring lots of new thinking. Without 
replying to each question, let me start with answers that might hit 
on the larger and perhaps most important questions.

Let me begin with, I am conscious of how different it is from crewing 
to owning. I began this not only seeking a boat, but advice about 
different boats that I had not and could not think about. You have 
already hit on a lot and thanks.

For a first boat, I would like something easy to sail, low 
maintenance and simple to rig. Masting a boat is something, stupidly 
had not thought of. Go figure. I will want to be able and comfortable 
to sail on my own and will more than likely only sail during good 
weather, March to December. I will be sailing only for pleasure with 
maybe some racing. I am not interested in a lot of gadgets to fiddle 
with. I have sailed on Dark Harbor 20, a few J's, Hinckley 42... 
Having owned an F 550 and pulled a 12 horse trailer, I am used to the 
process of large and heavy loads. I don't want to do that with my 
first boat, so I am probably more realistically looking at under 30 
maybe smaller, like 20. Nevertheless, I am interested in the dialogue 
for the larger boats as I look into the future of an upgrade.

I would like to be able to sleep over with my family of four. Got to 
get going. Off to Michigan to see my girls finish a canoe trip from 
Metamora to Lake Erie that they have been doing for 10 years. Should 
be a blast.

Thank you, Pat. Can't wait for the next string of advice and questions.

Jamie


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

*a few thoughts more*

Jamie,

Presumably you don't want to pay someone to step your mast every time you want to try sailing someplace new. For boats up to about 22-23' feet or so, raising the mast is a pretty simple job that you can often do by yourself. Boats a little bigger/heavier than that with deck-stepped masts can often have a lifting rig set up that uses a short pole and the jib halyard. Bigger or more complicated than that, for something like a Catalina 25 or 27, people use mast raising poles where they are available, or have a "gin pole" rig. Yet bigger boats often get into heavier keel-stepped masts and more complicated rigging. I'm thinking that something like around 28 feet or more boat LOA is where most people have the boatyard do their mast-stepping and rigging.

For launching, in addition to the mast issues, most keelboats will need to be launched with a trailer tongue extension or have the trailer and boat lowered on a cable or rope. The drill isn't too bad once you get used to it but can provide some nice entertainment for folks at the boat ramp. It can make finding a good-quality boat ramp important. Some smaller keelboats that are oriented toward racing also have lifting bolts over their keels and can be lowered into the water by cranes that some boatyards, marinas, or yacht clubs have. It's great when you can avoid getting salt water on a trailer.

I'm thinking you might look at Catalina 25 and 27's as "little big boats". There are lots of them around and I affectionately call the 27 the "smallest of the big boats". The Cat 27 is about the biggest thing I can imagine a lot of people wanting to trailer, at something like 6000-7000 lbs plus trailer.

The MacGregor 26 comes in different flavors, including the "notorious" powersailers that some sailors love to make fun of. The X and M do have very high freeboards and hence lots of windage, that combines with their relatively flat bottoms to make a less-than ideal sailing experience. But the pre-powersailer Macs are not so bad sailers and are easy to tow with the ballast tank emptied and very easy to rig. Hunter also makes some centerboard and water ballasted cruisers that usually look pretty inside, whereas the Macs can be very plain inside. Freedom Yachts makes boats with unstayed rigs that are simple to sail.

A J/24 or J/80 might be fun if you are a racer but they aren't so comfy for the family and some of them may have been "ridden hard and put away wet". Santa Cruz's are also boats with a racing flavor. Merit 25's like to consider themselves "what the J/24 should have been."

If you want something that sits lower on its trailer and is easier to rig and cope with as a first boat, the Catalina 22 is a popular classic that's available in a limited draft version and is a really nice boat for lakes and for towing around a lot.

If you want something with a bare bones cabin more for just two people for a night, but with good performance, you might try something like the Santana 20. The "tuna 20" can be lots of fun and will really move even in light air.

And there are many many other "classic plastic" boats out there. Your reactions to the boats mentioned above may help you zero in on what you want.

You'll want to pay lots of attention to the Sailnet thread and information on how to inspect boats. There are lots of good boats available, so the general advice is to RUN! not walk away from "project boats" with serious hull and deck issues.

It's perfectly normal for your boat preferences and your definition of the perfect boat to change with time or as you become interested in different aspects of sailing. That's entirely okay.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Some very sound questions/advice from rgscpat; I would have said pretty much the same things he did. One big hole left to fill: what's your budget?


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## erevllocin (Aug 13, 2010)

Pat, great again. I will reply to this more completely after I return from Mi on Wednesday. I need to look at your boat suggestions.

Thanks, Jamie


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## erevllocin (Aug 13, 2010)

mstern, have not created a budget, yet. Need to learn more about boats and simultaneously learn what I want. It does seem that small boats are quite reasonable, and perhaps will be even more so after the summer season. I am reluctant to spend too much as my knowledge cure is so steep. I don't want to have wished I had done something else after only one season. So resale value is very important.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

erevllocin said:


> mstern, have not created a budget, yet. Need to learn more about boats and simultaneously learn what I want. It does seem that small boats are quite reasonable, and perhaps will be even more so after the summer season. I am reluctant to spend too much as my knowledge cure is so steep. I don't want to have wished I had done something else after only one season. So resale value is very important.


Understood. Its just very helpful to know if you have $5000 to spend, or do you have $20,000 to spend. Makes an enormous difference in the advice and suggestions you will get. For example, you say you like the old-fashioned look of overhangs (me too). You can get a Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender (a 22 foot beauty) with an engine and trailer in decent shape for $5000. However, the boat will be at least forty years old, with all of the attendent issues of an outdated keel design and old wood components. But if you have $50,000 to spend, a used version of one of the new classic looking daysailers is not out of the question.

In other words, even if you don't know for sure how much you have, I bet you have some idea of how much you will want to spend. Remember, the more info you provide, the better the advice you will get.

And don't forget to enjoy the hunt!


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## erevllocin (Aug 13, 2010)

*mstern*

Great response, well crafted with great questions; thought provoking. I do, indeed, favor the older styles with the long overhangs. I am a male who wants to be proud of the pretty woman on my arm. I do, indeed, like the Cape Dory's but am conscious of your advice on age. Reduced upfront costs are valuable to me for the first boat, but I need to consider what needs to be upgraded for a safe and fun sail: sails, underbelly, winches, electronics, motor...etc.

The first boat is probably not going to last very long because I like expensive boats with graceful lines: Cape Dory, Sabre, Herreshoff, Morris, Allberg, Dark Harbor, Shields... Although I have seen some reasonable prices for Sabres, Morrise's and Cape Dory's, but what of the upgrade costs, I do not know. Until I have owned, been through the process, sailed and spent evenings with my girls on board, I will not know my needs.

Perhaps I should charter for a season or two to get through this process?

Please keep it coming. I am learning a lot. Thank you, Jamie


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Jamie,
I'm not sure who doesn't like the long overhangs and lines of something like a Shields or ____ (fill in the blank). Boats like this I find to be breath taking.
You have been given some great advice by rgscpat and mstern above. 
What is important is to know before hand how much work YOU will be required to do to make your CREW happy. I am glad to hear that you want to take your family sailing with you as this can be a great time together. It can also go the other way with unforeseen circumstances.
I would suggest you try to rent or charter a boat once you have some kind of certification (which does not have to be USCG). This will give you some insight into what some of the more 'modern' (chlorox bottle) style boats have to offer in terms of amenities and systems. It will also give you an idea as to what you want in your own boat or do not want.
Another option is to try to do some crewing on race nights at a local sailing club/yacht club or marina. The more you get to see of other peoples boats (OPB's) the more you can figure out what it is you really need and want versus what you think you need and want. 
Older boats may be cheaper to purchase but usually require more money for upgrades and maintenance that may not be visible to the naked eye.
Get on as many OPB's as you can as this will help you figure out what you can live with.
All boats are compromises.
Mine is from 1967 but is a classic plastic sailboat.
The MacGregor 26 S would fit you and your crew but is more of a 'clorox bottle' boat as rgscpat mentioned. I've sailed this boat and it sails pretty well and has room down below for sleeping more then my Tartan 27'. My boat is more heavily built and ready for some rough weather while the M 26 S would not be my choice in a storm. 
Good luck in your search.


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## daydreamer92 (Feb 16, 2010)

A suggestion while window-shopping:

If you live in an area that has a lot of marinas, take a walk along the waterfront with your camera. Snap pics of what you like. Visit boatyards and see what's still sitting there. You might find what you like is for sale within whatever budget you've set for your first boat and not in too bad of shape. Read SDs "self survey" post -- that'll help you weed out the "big project" boats vs. "can get it ready to go soon" boats. Check out craigslist and ebay and the other usual suspects and look at photos to make a list.


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## erevllocin (Aug 13, 2010)

*1st boat-getting there*

I have finally returned from Quebec and Nova Scotia. I am sorry to have taken so long to respond to so many great responses and thought provoking replies.

I am getting closer to what I want married with my expectations. However, I have only seen these boats on paper/internet. I need/want to step on board or better yet, sail. I am going to the Annapolis show in a couple of weeks.

Based on all that you have provided, I believe I am leaning towards a Tartan 27/30 or an ODay of similar size. I am, of course, still open to all kinds of alternative push and pull.

I have sold my F550 which was obviously a big mistake, and only have a truck whose towing capacity is 5K. That won't handle a 27-30' foot boat, but perhaps you guys can suggest something with a water ballast to reduce the weight.

Getting another truck or hiring haulage is not a big deal, however, 8'6" is the demarcation for hassles permitting. I am also convinced I will upgrade in one or two seasons.

I look forward to your input.

Jamie


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