# How not to make a tricky harbor approach...



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Posted on another forum, surprised it hasn't made it here, yet... _Dramatic_, to say the least...

Absolutely boggles the mind, that any crew would be on deck, apparently untethered, or out of the cockpit during such an approach, with that sort of swell running... That captain is an utter fool, not to have ordered everyone off the deck, especially after hesitating and turning around during his initial approach, in a apparent effort to read the oncoming set... He is remarkably lucky, that none of his crew/passengers were killed...

Here's the harbor in question, Zumaia, Spain... Perhaps Paulo is familiar with it? Bay of Biscay tells you pretty much all you need to know...










Velero volcado en Zumaia on Vimeo


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Having been knocked flat on our ear in a storm, by surfing a cresting wave and then stuffing the bow, that is exactly how I remember self righting. 

Ours may have been a tad slower, due to the small storm stay sail that was up, but still it happens way faster and way more abruptly than one would think..

That Bavaria (?) stood up and brushed herself off pretty damn quickly..... I like the spray of water being whipped by the mast head..... 

Crazy stuff...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Hard to watch, it was so painful. Who would even sit on deck, seeing what was coming.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Hindsight being 20/20 and the usual armchair quarterbacking rules in force... 

I was surprised he didn't have the three people on the bow & midships moved to all the way back. IMHO you need the weight aft to keep the rudder in the water and you need to be pointed 100% away from the wave. He caught the wave on the side instead of on the transom. And even if he caught it on the transom, you could see how low the bow was in the water, making it's own little rudder effect. The boat would have rotated sideways and flipped anyway with all that weight forward. (More from surf kayaking than any experience like that.)

Very painful to watch.

Again, IMHO, it also shows the importance of having a Lifesling or throwing line. If the current was heading out of the inlet stronger, the swimmers would have been swept back out the inlet. As it was, someone else had to go and get them.

Regards,
Brad


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## trantor12020 (Mar 11, 2006)

In situation like this, do I suppose its better to have the small powerboat rescue the MOB than using the sailboat? Which was why the sailboat didn't rescue the MOB. Right? I would expect the powerboat to throw a line and drag the MOB to calmer water before rescuing them onboard. Right?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

loading the vid, but wanted to say thats where I specialized in cooking, in donostia...

took my road bike there and road all the way to getaria, where some of the best txakoli is made

anywhoo remember the coast very well, very very pictoresque and VERY dangerous...

viscaya is to be feared


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Hard to watch, it was so painful. Who would even sit on deck, seeing what was coming.


these are normal entrances all over gipuzkoa

normal entries...saw it all the time all over the coast...now I never made it to this entrance I saw it even in la concha in donostia

now I hate armchair 2020 hindsight comments but our entrance here in el salvador where my boat is has exactly the same wave pattern....

you surf into the harbor and if you dont time it right this can happen

one thing I did not notice was a lookout towards the back...

there was absolutely no helm reaction to the wave that crashed over them...

when entering our estuary here you need hard over massive amounts of helm input...

just sayin

sad but this is really how it is there and elsewhere

the spanish coast if viscaya is impressive there are winds that pipe up all of a sudden, I forgot the name but they are like micro bursts of winds up to 100mph...

I experienced this right on the coast of san sebastian and all I could think of was holy **** what if I was on a boat out there when that hit

peace


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

So nobody gonna badmouth the stink potters ? 
The harbour entrance in my avatar is where I learned to sail. No sailboats in that harbour, 40 -65' wooden powerboats.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I've been through some of the nastiest inlets in the U.S. but only in a powerboat - never would even consider some of them in a sailboat. Great Machapongo Inlet immediately comes to mind when I saw that. The standing wave at the end of Great Machapongo Inlet was 12 to 15 feet when the tide was screaming ebb. Punching through that with 150 HP Yamaha on a 21-foot center console powerboat put an entirely new meaning to the work FEAR! In a sailboat, it would be considered suicidal.

Gary


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I imagine he's looking for new crew at this point.

Is this the same place? Sure looks like it.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Here's the rest of the sequence.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

And the finale.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

boatpoker said:


> So nobody gonna badmouth the stink potters ? ......


Now that you mention it, probably a stinkpotter at the helm. A true sailor would be hove to offshore.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Certainly shows why harnesses and jacklines are useful...


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Now that you mention it, probably a stinkpotter at the helm. A true sailor would be hove to offshore.


ouch !


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## LooseDiamond (Dec 7, 2010)

They are sailors. The only logical explanation is that they were out of beer.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

boatpoker said:


> So nobody gonna badmouth the stink potters ?


I realize you're probably kidding, but no way, those dudes had some balls to go pick up what were probably strangers in the water. They had a real risk of capsizing in that tiny boat and it took some skill on the driver's part to avoid the breakers. Those guys were a success all the way around.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I have read a post event anaysis some time ago and from memory,

It was a race day and the boats were returning to the marina, something they all had done many times before.

The experienced crew all went overboard, 3 novices left onboard which explains why they did not try to recover the MOBs.

The mobo who came out swapped passengers [ wife and child ? ] for a strong crew member from the Bav before they tried to rescue the MOBs.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TQA said:


> I have read a post event anaysis some time ago and from memory,
> 
> It was a race day and the boats were returning to the marina, something they all had done many times before.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a description of a different event. This one happened earlier this month, and was just posted on Vimeo a few days ago...

That would be _REALLY_ scary if it were the more _EXPERIENCED_ crew that were sitting on deck untethered, and the less experienced were in the cockpit, and at the helm... 

By the look of it to me, I think the main reason the Bavaria 38 didn't attempt the recovery, is that the people in the water quickly drifted into pretty shoal water... the behavior of the waves in that area indicate it was pretty shoal, and the rescue boat was obviously concerned about getting caught by a breaking sea...

Given the configuration of that entrance, it's very likely that the river scours out the channel along the longer breakwater to starboard, and the water shoals quickly off to port beyond the end of the the shorter jetty to port...


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

would anyone here dare to turn the boat into those braking waves, try to pick up the MOBs and risk the boat and eventually all on board?
apart from not having the crew tethered to the boat, the skipper just did the only reasonable thing and getting his and the rest of the crews arses out of it and call for assistance...

i heard about some entrances along this coast being really dangerous but wow... now having seen this, it scares the heck out of me...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

It's crazy to try to enter with those conditions. Lots of sailors (mostly foreigners) died in Portugal trying that stunt. 

The boats looks to be a 2003 Bavaria 36 (my former boat). It has a good AVS and a good final stability. Some will only find that (or not) on these conditions, some like to look at a stability curve before buying the boat

With that boat I had once been caught by winds out of scale (micro burst or tornado - it was at night) the boat stayed on its side for some time and then when the crazy wind went way, just righted itself quickly, as on that movie.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Hard to watch, it was so painful. Who would even sit on deck, seeing what was coming.


I just can't imagine the people sitting on deck as anything but complete novices on the water thinking that what they were about to experience was going to be on a danger level comparable to the log plume ride at Walt Disney World, as far as risk.

The Captain? I'm like everyone else. I can't imagine what he was thinking, to try and go through that inlet with a bunch of people all over the front of his boat, obviously oblivious to what the potential danger was, and obviously not tethered in (or even wearing life jackets as far as I can tell).

I wonder how often that inlet is like that?


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

While I agree, it probably would have been better to wait outside for conditions to calm down, in watching the video I was really surprised by the severity of that particular wave. I didn't see any other waves crashing over the breakwater/sea wall like you do with that one.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

jimgo said:


> While I agree, it probably would have been better to wait outside for conditions to calm down, in watching the video I was really surprised by the severity of that particular wave. I didn't see any other waves crashing over the breakwater/sea wall like you do with that one.


Yeah, stupid is always bad. But, stupid with some bad luck thrown in, can be a mother.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

again guys, these are normal entries all over this coast...and not to brag about them(the basque)

they are very stubborn, STRONG and willfull people...

and there are many now offshore sailors in round the world races, vendee, transats, etc...especially from bilbao.

think about it..if this is normal to you why would it be considered suicidal...?

same can be said for people leaving oregon in winter, or swordfisherman of new england or people saling the tasman sea all the time...

whats normal to one person is not normal to someone else simply viewed from an experience perspective

the trick to surfing waves on sailboats(breaking waves in an entrance) like this is to surf the rumble...not the wave
and obviously never lie a beam to the waves...

in other words you time your boat to be hit by the already broken wave...its hard but can be done...

last tip never do helm changes once the wave hits, only very small adjustments and you keep the helm still and stiff the fist moment of impact...

the reall issue I saw in the sequence was simply bad timing and absolutely no helm input when that wave hit...nobody saw it...

yes it was big but he got hit by a BREAKING wave not an already broken wave

disaster...

once the stern got smacked and tilted(yes some designs are better in taking waves from the stern like this his was a modern big ass stern) it was game over till the next hit.
anywhoo

hope they all are fine and sailing again

jejeje

peace


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Wow, that is insane! Not sure why anyone would be on deck during an entrance like that. It could be the view point of the video camera, but they looked awfully close to the wall on their starboard side too. I wonder if they might have been able to ride out the white water if they were further to port and kept the bow straight.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

christian.hess said:


> again guys, these are normal entries all over this coast...and not to brag about them(the basque)
> 
> they are very stubborn, STRONG and willfull people...
> 
> ...


You seem to have a lot of experience on this situations that you seem to consider normal.

I have the experience to see dead bodies come out of it.That happened several times where or near the place I used to have the boat on the west coast of Portugal and could easily have happened here.

I don't know what is the policy of the maritime authority on Basque country but I know that in Portugal: they close the port entrance or limit the minimum size of the boats that can enter. That's effective: You enter with a bar closed and if you are lucky you can count with a huge fine, if you have bad luck you can have your boat and licence apprehended. Ports here are closed with less hazardous conditions than what you see on that movie.

That's why the ones that die are mostly foreigners that don't know that they cannot enter with a closed bar or think that is just for nationals.

I consider your suggestions, namely that there is an acceptable risk to be hit by a broken wave, the size of the one that capsized that boat dangerous.

Regards

Paulo


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

paulo I read your post...shouldnt of, but I was not logged in...

...for the sake of not continuing to argue with you as you always seem to do with me...I will not comment anymore except for this:

Im not defending anyone, the captain, or any place port, harbor, etc...but yes I have been on this coast, seen many little ports, eaten there, seen boats enter and leave, been on the water in donostia not in storm conditions but have seen first hand people entering and leaving said ports as NORMAL.

The wave pattern is like so...the winds are like that normally and the surf is like that normally.

The micro bursts of wind of which you speak of I mentioned earlier...are quite common...but again NORMAL for this area of the coast.

Im not suggesting anything so dont say I am.

I only offered advice and help with how to manuever sailboats in breaking waves under power...as I have done it many times down here in similar yet TROPICAL conditions.

even under sail on an old wooden ketch...so whatever

if that is dangerous to somebody than dont take the advice...
Like many here I reccomend being tethered, having lookouts, and experienced drivers or skippers at the helm for such entrances.

If not sure about it simply waiting offshore a bit would be my only advice. But people dont often do sensible things...especially if for example some people HAD TO BE SOMEWHERE and needed to get off...

christian


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> I imagine he's looking for clean underwear at this point.
> 
> .


Fixed it for you.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Wow. That's painful. The speed of that knockdown is incredible.

After watching it closely, it looks like the MOBs were actually from the cockpit - save for the one guy that was sitting near the port beam. The two guys up front (at the bow and at the mast) stayed on the boat.

Just goes to show - even the "safe bet" isn't always the safe bet.

The other thing that I thought was smart - though counterintuitive - was the skipper's hard turn to starboard after the knockdown. This move got him out of the breakers, but took him away from his crew. It was the right move, but in my mind I probably would have immediately wanted to steer toward the MOBs - which would have put the boat on the rocks with an even worse outcome.


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## -OvO- (Dec 31, 2011)

I see the crew kept their heads and didn't try to climb on the powerboat the instant it arrived. Shows they weren't panicking.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Group9 said:


> I wonder how often that inlet is like that?


Again, this is the at the SE 'corner of the Bay of Biscay, one of the most fearsome bodies of water on earth... In the winter, where a Maersk container ship just lost 500 containers overboard...

It's probably like that, or far worse, fairly _often_... 



kwaltersmi said:


> Wow, that is insane! Not sure why anyone would be on deck during an entrance like that. It could be the view point of the video camera, but they looked awfully close to the wall on their starboard side too. I wonder if they might have been able to ride out the white water if they were further to port and kept the bow straight.


That video is shot with a medium telephoto lens, so there's some compression of the image that may make it appear they're closer to the jetty than they actually might have been...

However, look at the chart in post #19... The outflow from that river is obviously gonna cause the deepest water to be close to that longer jetty to starboard upon entry, you'd definitely want to be favoring that side... Similar to some East coast inlets here in the States - Ponce Inlet is the first that comes to mind - where you really have to hug the jetty on the north side, to avoid a broad area of shoal water and breakers to the south...










Here are some other images that make it apparent the entrance at Zumaia shoals off to port, and the waves break first off to that side...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

christian.hess said:


> the trick to surfing waves on sailboats(breaking waves in an entrance) like this is to surf the rumble...not the wave
> and obviously never lie a beam to the waves...
> 
> in other words you time your boat to be hit by the already broken wave...its hard but can be done...


I'm trying to visualize what you are saying.
Could you elaborate and or maybe reference some specific pictures as to when the boat is in the wrong place or right place?
Thanks


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

PCP said:


> I don't know what is the policy of the maritime authority on Basque country but I know that in Portugal: they close the port entrance or limit the minimum size of the boats that can enter. That's effective: You enter with a bar closed and if you are lucky you can count with a huge fine,


How do you know if the bar is closed?
Radio, Flag?


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

What a $hitty place to keep your boat if those truly are "normal" conditions. Sure makes me appreciate the direct access I enjoy from my mooring to hundreds of square miles of protected waters.

When I lived in the PNW, I felt similarly about the Oregon coast. Who in their right mind would keep a sailboat inside one of the bars there (especially with Puget Sound just a few hours north).


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

davidpm said:


> How do you know if the bar is closed?
> Radio, Flag?


I can't answer for Europe. In Oregon, with its nasty bars, it's well published and communicated by the CG when they close the bars. VHF, weather reports, internet, general media. So, when it's closed, you know, you don't go out. And, around there at least, it's not like recreational boaters are just out on the Pacific and decide to cross a bar for a quick lunch stop. Most boats are out and back in.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

christian.hess said:


> ....
> The micro bursts of wind of which you speak of I mentioned earlier...are quite common...but again NORMAL for this area of the coast.
> ...


Micro bursts are not quite common anywhere....happilly: They can be deadly to airplanes and not only.

*"A microburst often has high winds that can knock over fully grown trees. They usually last for a duration of a couple of seconds to several minutes....Microbursts are recognized as capable of generating wind speeds higher than 168 mph;."
*
wiki

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

davidpm said:


> How do you know if the bar is closed?
> Radio, Flag?


There are signals on the post but when you have any doubt you should contact by VHF the "Capitania" (Port authorities). They have a 24 hours watch. If that bar is closed they will advise you to where you should go and what are the ports that have safe conditions.

Regards

Paulo


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

PCP said:


> Micro bursts are not quite common anywhere....happilly: They can be deadly to airplanes and not only.
> 
> *"A microburst often has high winds that can knock over fully grown trees. They usually last for a duration of a couple of seconds to several minutes....Microbursts are recognized as capable of generating wind speeds higher than 168 mph;."
> *
> ...


Microburst at Port Credit Yacht Club (2003 if I remember correctly) just west of Toronto. Over $1,000,000 dock damage in less than 3 seconds


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

It's hard to believe those are "normal" conditions.....also goes to show you that sometimes the safest place to be in rough weather is offshore until the weather changes...


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

boatpoker said:


> Microburst at Port Credit Yacht Club (2003 if I remember correctly) just west of Toronto. Over $1,000,000 dock damage in less than 3 seconds


When I was in Texas in the late 80's, a similar thing happened at Fort Hood, destroying a bunch of helicopters, when they got a 110 mph wind that came up during a fast forming thunderstorm. It blew them across the tarmacs like tumbleweeds.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

caberg said:


> What a $hitty place to keep your boat if those truly are "normal" conditions. Sure makes me appreciate the direct access I enjoy from my mooring to hundreds of square miles of protected waters.
> 
> When I lived in the PNW, I felt similarly about the Oregon coast. Who in their right mind would keep a sailboat inside one of the bars there (especially with Puget Sound just a few hours north).


Yeah, I won't ever complain about the entrance to my harbor again.


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## randomforumname (Mar 2, 2012)

It looks like the skipper powered down once he entered the harbor and thought he was safe. If he would have kept moving fast instead of going down to "harbor speed" I think he would have been out of breaker zone by the time they got rolled.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

davidpm said:


> I'm trying to visualize what you are saying.
> Could you elaborate and or maybe reference some specific pictures as to when the boat is in the wrong place or right place?
> Thanks


have you tried surfing before?

for beginners this is exactly what they teach you on...

long, waves that are in constant rumble...smallish waves...its the tube shape and crest that do damage

if you are in one like that on a boat its game over

I guess what I was trying to express is that youn want to try and get hit by an already broken wave...say 3-5 seconds after it breaks...its that airy water that lifts you and pushes you(not smacks you down) that pushes you into the next set

like someone else posted later...the other mistake the skipper made(maybe he saw a shallow depth cause he was quite close to the pier and panicked) or whatever was he powered way down...after that first wave

paired that with no lookout when the big one hit and its disaster as we all see

when I did it entering the estuary here I had my little yanmar2gm at times idling and then max throttle to situate me in between sets

there are about 3 sets entering here...dont know how many breakers are usuall in zumaia


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The mistake the skipper made was coming into an inlet during a blow with an opposing ebb tide - what an idiot! Anyone with the mental intellect of a turnip knows better than to enter an inlet under these conditions. If he would have stayed offshore till the tide went slack he would not have encountered any problem at all.

Gary


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

abolutely untrue...ebb tide had nothing to do with it...the waves are created from winds blowing for a long time...hard, as they do here...when the wind pics up they get big like this and break

ebb tide had little or nothing to do with it

the pounding these piers and inlets take every day is a testament to this...

what you dont want to do is go at low tide the surf gets bigger(the actual wave height, not volume) and the waves form and crash faster...

when we eneter down here we go at full tide ebbing...in other words you are beginning to fight the current a bit but the water is less turbulent as its fuller...why do we go in like this?

*becuase like this you have more speed trough water*, meaning you have more control, more input...albeot slightly less vmg.

sailboats dont like to be pushed especially down waves, kayaks are the same...unless they have more power or speed than the wave itself.

what Im trying to say here is its better to enter tricky entrances on a slight ebb tide...ideally when it just turned say 30minutes to an hour after slack high tide...so even though you wont get pushed in if you will like on a flood, the point is you have more control...better precision and since you have more speed through water you are less likely to stall your ruddder.

when there is shallow water you get massive whirpools, faster breaking and cresting waves and more turbulence, eddies and the like in the water itself making turning, throttle control all harder. Not to mention the risk of running aground which is game over in most any inlet, estuary entrance etc...

as always to each their own...

anywhoo


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## tspooner (Jun 18, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Wow. That's painful. The speed of that knockdown is incredible.
> 
> After watching it closely, it looks like the MOBs were actually from the cockpit - save for the one guy that was sitting near the port beam. The two guys up front (at the bow and at the mast) stayed on the boat.


You're right Smack. The one fella at the bow gripped the forestay while the guy in red saw it coming and moved centre and bear hugged the mast. The ones that went OB was the guy coming through the companionway with the tray full of drinks and the 3 guys in the cockpit playing cards!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> And the finale.


Cow-a-frickin-bunga


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> The mistake the skipper made was coming into an inlet during a blow with an opposing ebb tide - what an idiot! Anyone with the mental intellect of a turnip knows better than to enter an inlet under these conditions. If he would have stayed offshore till the tide went slack he would not have encountered any problem at all.
> 
> Gary


I don't know, Gary... It doesn't appear to me that there that there is any significant ebb running at the time. Particularly near the end of the video, when the second sailboat comes out to stand by, he's sitting right in the area where any ebbing current would be strongest, and is not moving at all. And, for most of the time, the boat is not at an angle that would infer that he might be backing down into any current...

Zumaia has a tidal range of roughly 14 feet, so when any ebb or flood is running out of that narrow chute, it's gonna be pretty noticeable... And, it certainly does appear that this approach was made pretty close to the top of the tide, as opposed to low tide...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> when we eneter down here we go at full tide ebbing...in other words you are beginning to fight the current a bit but the water is less turbulent as its fuller...why do we go in like this?
> 
> *becuase like this you have more speed trough water*, meaning you have more control, more input...albeot slightly less vmg.
> 
> ...


Well, your bar crossings down there must be considerably different from ours up here, 'cause I'll take running an inlet like Barnegat, Oregon, or St Augusting with a sizeable swell running on the flood, as opposed to on the ebb, every single time.... 

Sorry, but the notion that your boatspeed "through the water" (assuming equivalent engine RPMs, and other factors being equal) is higher when running against the current, as opposed to running with it, is lost on me...


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

travlineasy said:


> The mistake the skipper made was coming into an inlet during a blow with an opposing ebb tide - what an idiot! Anyone with the mental intellect of a turnip knows better than to enter an inlet under these conditions. *If he would have stayed offshore till the tide went slack he would not have encountered any problem at all.*
> 
> Gary


I don't think you can say that unless you have some knowledge beyond the video in the OP. As mentioned, it's not even clear that there was an opposing ebb tide, and anyway, there are plenty of bars which experience conditions that should not be run at _any_ time regardless of tide.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

read again please...

SPEED THROUGH WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATER not BOAT speed or vmg

man

notice I mentioned vmg too.

you have more control when you have more water flow running through the rudder...

try it

I dont know why Im having such a hard time explaining the simplest things when you are getting pushed in with a flood for example your speed *through* water is less your overall boat speed is higher.

like when you are in big currents...in the gulf current say going from key west up to ft lauderdale our speed through water on my boat for example showed a simple what 5knots...but over ground or vmg was nice and high at 8-9knots...we had a great fast ride.

if you scale this down to what we are talking about here...who has more control?

1. a boat doing .5-1 knots or

2. a boat doing 5knots against a 2 knot current? if you think the first boat has mroe control cause he is not fighting a current you are wrong.

only when the current is reaching hull speed or vmg or is more are you in trouble.

when on max flood you are simply being pushed as a whole *boat and water* into wherever you are going...try it

rudder control movement all are hindered. you think you are doing better cause you are going faster but in fact you have less control.

try this next time you are in some inlet or current(do it in a dinghy too) go into it and move the rudder...small then big...now do the same going with the current if you cant see that you have more control up current and more responsiveness and faster moevement then well you are missing something.

This is something I taught at the sailing shool down here...in sailboat dinghies you have to learn to have max control...upwind, stall, downwind go back up...control, control control...you have more and can hold still better if you have a slight current against you...hovering if you will...

thats all I was trying to say

in the case of this said boat he had many issues least of which was if he had and ebb tide or not

he POWERED DOWN
he did not have a proper lookout for the big wave that hit
he missed the mark in timing the waves set
he was very close to the rocks or pier if you will but that is up in the air as it might have been more protected and deeper, you can see the wave came from the right side first.

and no one was tethered etc...

anywhoo

Ill leave it like this...

peace


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> *Well, your bar crossings down there must be considerably different from ours up here, *'cause I'll take running an inlet like Barnegat, Oregon, or St Augusting with a sizeable swell running on the flood, as opposed to on the ebb, every single time....
> 
> Sorry, but the notion that your boatspeed "through the water" (assuming equivalent engine RPMs, and other factors being equal) is higher when running against the current, as opposed to running with it, is lost on me...


yes they are especially since I never said it was a BAR CROSSING

its an eastuary entrance with curves and tides ranging in the 10 ft level and currents as much as 5 knots...

one thing you do not want to do is go max ebb with opposing high forces winds as this increments dramatically chop and wave height...making them bigger


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tspooner said:


> You're right Smack. The one fella at the bow gripped the forestay while the guy in red saw it coming and moved centre and bear hugged the mast. The ones that went OB was the guy coming through the companionway with the tray full of drinks and the 3 guys in the cockpit playing cards!


And actually that makes sense with the motion of the boat. The bow dug in and the stern whipped around and down with far more force.

So whether you're on the foredeck, sidedeck or in the cockpit doesn't make a lot of difference - if you're not clipped in.

That said, who the hell would clip in for entering the marina? Maybe these guys next time?


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Smack, in theory I agree - who the hell would clip in for entering a marina. But for entering THAT marina? I think (and of course I'm playing hindsight quarterback here) that would be prudent more often than not.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Velero volcado en Zumaia www.gabiaymat.com from Gabi on Vimeo.


They did have about 4 seconds of warning, as you can see the crew member on the starboard foredeck jump to, and hug the mast (02:46 to 02:51). It appears to me as though the helmsman turned to starboard a little too early.

The crew that got dumped were; 
crew member on port deck
crew member in port cockpit seat
crew member in starboard cockpit seat
crew member in center of cockpit in front of binnacle
I suspect that the crew member on the starboard deck had sore ribs, as he apparently was thrown into the boom, and managed to hang on.

I cannot see if the bowman was clipped in, but as the boat is being pushed over, he jumps up (02:48) and is crouched on his feet facing aft with his arms out. He looks like he is surfing backwards. He actually (somehow) manages to stay on his feet (probably standing on the topsides) the whole time!

They prepared to toss the horseshoe (03:04), but it seems as if it got hung up on something. Eventually, after the vessel makes it behind the breakwater, the crew member to starboard DROPS the horseshoe into the water alongside the vessel (04:10).

I wonder if there is a charter base at this marina... If so, I would suggest that you pay for the damage waiver.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Even if clipped, if they were using those long lines that were used till some years ago (1.5 to 2.0m long lines) they could be seriously hurt. The boat is violently capsized and the movement is very fast. They were lucky not to having lost the mast and also in being on that boat that has an unusually good AVS for that type of boat.

We can see here that it was not just a 90º capsize, the boat went way below that and it was very close to become turtle.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Just to understand waves better - have any of you salty dudes ever seen breakers that big out to sea? I've seen one or two on video (even way bigger than that one) - but it seems like it would take a hell of a storm to generate a breaker like that in the deep.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Just to understand waves better - have any of you salty dudes ever seen breakers that big out to sea? I've seen one or two on video (even way bigger than that one) - but it seems like it would take a hell of a storm to generate a breaker like that in the deep.


Check the attached - that is 100 miles west of San Diego

Cortez Bank - imagine sailing into that at night.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Just to understand waves better - have any of you salty dudes ever seen breakers that big out to sea? I've seen one or two on video (even way bigger than that one) - but it seems like it would take a hell of a storm to generate a breaker like that in the deep.


i had a knockdown once in the adriatic...
probably only 7-10 nm from shore and it was a breaking freak wave which came out of nowhere...
the usual wave height was about 2+ m or something when a smaller breaking wave pushed the bow to starboard... as i corrected course again, i looked to port and just saw a wall of water approaching us abeam... before we got hit, i saw the foaming crest of that monster well above our first spreaders and still rising almost to the second spreaders (masthead was roughly at 18 m)...
BOOM - the boat got lifted up and pushed on its side violently while the wave crashed over us and i held fast to the wheel with all the force i could muster...
when the wave had passed, the boat felt like in free fall for an eternity - BOOM...
after the boat righted itself i was lying flat in the cockpit with my feet on the back of the cockpit seats...
luckily i was the only one on deck and the 2nd watch went down for some warmer clothes just less than a minute before...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

capt vimes said:


> i had a knockdown once in the adriatic...
> probably only 7-10 nm from shore and it was a breaking freak wave which came out of nowhere...
> the usual wave height was about 2+ m or something when a smaller breaking wave pushed the bow to starboard... as i corrected course again, i looked to port and just saw a wall of water approaching us abeam... before we got hit, i saw the foaming crest of that monster well above our first spreaders and still rising almost to the second spreaders (masthead was roughly at 18 m)...
> BOOM - the boat got lifted up and pushed on its side violently while the wave crashed over us and i held fast to the wheel with all the force i could muster...
> ...


Oh hell yeah!!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

smackdaddy said:


> Just to understand waves better - have any of you ... ever seen breakers that big out to sea? I've seen one or two on video (even way bigger than that one) - but it seems like it would take a hell of a storm to generate a breaker like that in the deep.


There is a difference Smack: Near the shore when the depth is not big all the wave breaks. Offshore only the top breaks so in fact it would have to be a bigger wave to have that "breaking" power.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

capt vimes said:


> i had a knockdown once in the adriatic...
> probably only 7-10 nm from shore and it was a breaking freak wave which came out of nowhere...
> the usual wave height was about 2+ m or something when a smaller breaking wave pushed the bow to starboard... as i corrected course again, i looked to port and just saw a wall of water approaching us abeam... before we got hit, i saw the foaming crest of that monster well above our first spreaders and still rising almost to the second spreaders (masthead was roughly at 18 m)...
> BOOM - the boat got lifted up and pushed on its side violently while the wave crashed over us and i held fast to the wheel with all the force i could muster...
> ...


What was the boat?

The boat went to 90º or more?

Regards

Paulo


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

in harbors like that you should only approach at about a half hour before slack water. Check your current tables to find the times for slack water. And if the wind and current are opposing each other then wait before entering...


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Experiencing the aftermath of the LSC and Uncontrollable Urge tragedies, I was horrified while watching the video. I am glad that all were rescued and there were no fatalities. It is curious where the two California skippers were roundly criticized and this (Spanish?) skipper gets a “buy” for his amazing lapses in judgment.

Ebbing current against a predominant wave (wind) pattern does play a factor in the height and steepness of waves in a channel. Christian should recall the “Potato Patch Rule” (ebb current and opposing afternoon winds). I can’t tell how much water is impounded in that river at high tide but suffice to say, that the river current itself probably is making the waves stack up a bit. You may also recall that the Santa Cruz Harbor breakwater attracts surfers, often inside the channel when the break is right. At Half Moon Bay, the harbor master posts the reef conditions in his office window and we have called him on the radio when we were unsure of a Southerly set. It is disconcerting to see surfers up at Mavericks riding the same swell you are on as you make the cut in the reef.

When running a swell, your boat speed will be slower than the wave itself. After all, the wave passes underneath your boat. Steering is a bit tricky as the further you get from being “square” on the wave, the more the wave wants to turn the boat sideways into a broach. The big problem in heading into a large swell is losing boat speed. There is both a horizontal and vertical component to climbing over a swell and the boat loses speed as it tries to overcome gravity. Ultimately the boat stalls and either slides backwards or turns into a broach. That scene from “The Perfect Storm” is the classic example. I cannot be the only sailor here who has stalled out on a large wave?

As the wave that knocked them down came from over the break wall, they were “doomed” no matter what. I don’t care what Christian says about the Basque cuisine, I am taking Zumaia off the list of top ten harbors I want to visit.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

That entrance looks similar to the entrance to Tomales Bay, about 50 or so miles north of San Francisco, where any number of people have been killed. Many/most entrances in Northern California, Oregon & Washington are very similar. Conditions, especially in the winter months, with big seas & high running rivers, in normal years, can/are very severe.

Sometimes, "brave" sailors become "dead" sailors. San Francisco entrance and the Bonita Channel, to the north, used to scare me, big time, even in a capable boat like this one.

Paul T


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## Donald_Crowhurst (Jan 13, 2014)

That skipper was doomed by not reading the waves correctly. He either should have avoided the harbor or waited for a better break between wave sets. There is no 'surfing' the wave just after it breaks. When the stern of your boat is in a breaking wave (or one that just broke), you lose steerage and thrust and the wave leaves the boat broadside to the next breaking waves.
I watched the video several times and it seems like he was on the throttle the whole time. 
I dont know who said it first, but a flood tide would be the best time to get into that harbor. SOG is your best friend in a situation like that.
An ebb current would be more dangerous. An ebb current would shift the waves closer together, stack them up higher, and the current would leave the boat exposed in the 'impact zone' for a longer time. 
I cant say for sure, but it seems like the skipper was on the throttle the whole time while trying to round the jetty.
I would post a picture of our harbor here in santa cruz breaking, but apparently im too much of a noob.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

There are old sailors and bold sailors but no old, bold sailors.


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## CaptTony (May 22, 2011)

Watching that video, I found myself screaming at it. What the heck were those guys doing on deck and more specifically on the bow? It just doesn't make sense. It seems to me the extra weight might cause the bow to dig in and risk upending the boat, which didn't happen thank heavens.

No one has said anything about sails in their comments. Wouldn't it have been better to at least have the head sail pulled out partially if not fully? Just wondering.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Donald_Crowhurst said:


> That skipper was doomed by not reading the waves correctly. He either should have avoided the harbor or waited for a better break between wave sets.


Yes, that was another of my first impressions that amazed me, as well - how little attention was paid the the set or pattern of the swells prior to proceeding with his approach. With the exception of that one quick circle he performed outside the entrance, he seemed to be paying little attention to what was happening to seaward...

On more than one occasion, I've sat outside of an inlet for 15, 20, 30 minutes or more, simply gauging the conditions before picking the moment to go, or taking the decision to wave it off, and to stay out or proceed to another entrance... I think the last time I bailed out of going in was at Rudee Inlet about 8 years ago, never thought there was any real shame in doing that, at all... Not a whole lot of margin for error, there


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Bodega and Tomales Bays have been off my list of harbors to visit list for years. You fishermen can have it. Did someone mention Bonita Channel?


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

PCP said:


> What was the boat?
> 
> The boat went to 90º or more?


The boat was a diva 399... A quite slender but fast boat which are no more longer produced to my knowledge...

And honestly - i had in that situation other concerns than checking if we went to 'only' 90 or even further... 
The only thing i can tell you, the impact after the free fall felt very much like the boat hit the trough very much on its side...
We had no sails up and were motoring and the righting of the boat also felt 'snappy' for no better words...


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Oh hell yeah!!


Smack - you should read 'the fatal storm'... A book where a reporter brought together all the stories of those poor souls trapped in the catastrophic sydney to hobart race 1998...

Long story short:
A ~40 foot boat has been rolled about 3 times.. The rig was well gone, the crew but the helmsman hunched in the salon... They had enough force from the wind on the naked hull to keep some steerage and were running with the wind in BIG following seas...
The helmsman felt at one point another monster approaching from aft, pushing the stern aside, he just crouched and held fast awaiting the breaking wave and the inevitable roll...
It did not happen...
He looked up and saw their 12 m boat surfing in the TUNNEL of a make-your-own-guess-what-height breaking wave...
I still get the chill, if i am only thinking of this..


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

> GeorgeB said:
> 
> 
> > Bodega and Tomales Bays have been off my list of harbors to visit list for years. You fishermen can have it. Did someone mention Bonita Channel?
> ...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Experiencing the aftermath of the LSC and Uncontrollable Urge tragedies, I was horrified while watching the video. I am glad that all were rescued and there were no fatalities. It is curious where the two California skippers were roundly criticized and this (Spanish?) skipper gets a "buy" for his amazing lapses in judgment.


I'm definitely not gong to defend this guy - but, as I typically do, I'll take a little different view...

The CA skippers we're sailing "in the wild". This guy was coming into a man-made marina. And, as PCP and Hess have said (and has been shown in other photos) - these types of harbor entrances are relatively common in these areas.

IF that's the case - these are very different scenarios.

Now, there are obviously WAY too many variables (and way too little info) to know if the skipper in this video truly made a bad call, or just got caught by bigger conditions than expected. If the harbor was not closed (which it appears it was not) - then the harbormaster didn't deem the conditions dangerous enough to do so.

Again, very different scenarios in my opinion.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

capt vimes said:


> Smack - you should read 'the fatal storm'... A book where a reporter brought together all the stories of those poor souls trapped in the catastrophic sydney to hobart race 1998...
> 
> Long story short:
> A ~40 foot boat has been rolled about 3 times.. The rig was well gone, the crew but the helmsman hunched in the salon... They had enough force from the wind on the naked hull to keep some steerage and were running with the wind in BIG following seas...
> ...


I've read it - along with most of the other big storm books. Lots to learn in them.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Just to understand waves better - have any of you salty dudes ever seen breakers that big out to sea? I've seen one or two on video (even way bigger than that one) - but it seems like it would take a hell of a storm to generate a breaker like that in the deep.


they dont break like that, the ones I have seen in the indian and pacific...i trade sailing.

similar to "rogue waves" we often at least once or twice a day always got a big smack from a wave singing a different tune

rogue waves are often descirbed as simply being waves from a different direction than standard so like in the trades getting smacked on the beam per se with a bigger wave than usual could be considered a rogue wave but not reffered as so as its just common.

monster waves no...we didnt see any...big waves after certain sets yes...

the bigger ones simply crested and broke earlier cause of the force and what happens is you get a lot of white water...you have to be careful if you are on windvane only...or autpilot as you can be pushed to one side or overpowered.

I often many times actually helped the windvane when getting a big wave like that by grabbing the tiller and pulling or pushing earlier...

in any case that was my experience...

lovely to feel and see for me at least...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This is still the scariest wave I've ever seen in all the heavy weather videos I've watched:






Wave Height: 30 meters.
Place of freakwave: North Atlantic.
Time: 1-2 February 2008

Vessel: Mv.Metsaborg. 
Ship Length x Breadth: 135 m X 17 m
Company: Wagenborg.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm definitely not gong to defend this guy - but, as I typically do, I'll take a little different view...
> 
> The CA skippers we're sailing "in the wild". This guy was coming into a man-made marina. And, as PCP and Hess have said (and has been shown in other photos) - these types of harbor entrances are relatively common in these areas.
> 
> ...


I said that they are common but already said that in Portugal in conditions less severe than those they are closed.

You can see at the beginning of the video that the guy had tried once and aborted because he found out that waves were coming in. That should be enough as a warning and he should have made way to a safer port. Doing what he had done was playing Russian roulette: probably he would have more chances of making it than not making it but being responsible for the safety of a crew should be enough to play it for sure. That's what a Captain should always do when he has a choice and a crew to his responsability.

Regards

Paulo


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> Experiencing the aftermath of the LSC and Uncontrollable Urge tragedies, I was horrified while watching the video. I am glad that all were rescued and there were no fatalities. It is curious where the two California skippers were roundly criticized and this (Spanish?) skipper gets a "buy" for his amazing lapses in judgment.
> 
> Ebbing current against a predominant wave (wind) pattern does play a factor in the height and steepness of waves in a channel. Christian should recall the "Potato Patch Rule" (ebb current and opposing afternoon winds). I can't tell how much water is impounded in that river at high tide but suffice to say, that the river current itself probably is making the waves stack up a bit. You may also recall that the Santa Cruz Harbor breakwater attracts surfers, often inside the channel when the break is right. At Half Moon Bay, the harbor master posts the reef conditions in his office window and we have called him on the radio when we were unsure of a Southerly set. It is disconcerting to see surfers up at Mavericks riding the same swell you are on as you make the cut in the reef.
> 
> ...


what are your other 9 harbors then? jajaja

and yes Im very familiar with the potato patch

apples and oranges with regards to this scenario

ps. you can have very good basque cuisine in san francisco so you dont have to go to zumaia...but if you do go a little further to getaria, and have yourself some lovely frizzy txakoli wine

yay


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> This is still the scariest wave I've ever seen in all the heavy weather videos I've watched:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sometimes you just have to accept when its your time to die...I always have images like this in my mind...that it can and could happen to me...

but its not for me to decide...as once your in it all you can do is fight it till death...

if you come out alive in a sailboat in conditions like that..you know it was NOT your time to go...simple as that


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> read again please...
> 
> SPEED THROUGH WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATER not BOAT speed or vmg
> 
> ...


Yeah, I get that... That's why I wrote "boatspeed "though the water"...", even though that's as redundant as saying something like "knots per hour"... 



christian.hess said:


> you have more control when you have more water flow running through the rudder...
> 
> try it
> 
> I dont know why Im having such a hard time explaining the simplest things when you are getting pushed in with a flood for example your speed *through* water is less your overall boat speed is higher.


Well, you can be the one to re-write some of the Laws of Newtonian Physics, if you can prove that - in theory - your _BOATSPEED_ will be different when running with a current, than when running against...

"Boatspeed" is the rate of progress of your boat through a medium - hopefully in most instances the medium being _WATER_ - typically calibrated by a speed/log impeller mounted some distance beneath the water's surface...

Let's assume that our engine produces a boatspeed of 5 knots at 2500 RPMs, OK? And, we're in a current running at 2 knots, and the entire medium is moving at a constant rate, disregarding anomalies due to eddies, bottom effect, and so on, and that the speed being recorded by the speedo is identical to the boat's speed at the water's surface, OK?

So, at 2500 RPM producing a speed of 5 knots, running with the current of 2 knots will give us a SOG of 7 knots, no? And, turning around and running upcurrent, our speed over the ground will be reduced to 3 knots, correct? How are you arriving at the notion that our boatspeed, and flow of water past the rudder (disregarding the effect of prop wash, of course), is _GREATER,_ or 'control' is_ ENHANCED_, by running against the current?

Of course, many people appear to have the _'impression'_ that they have "greater control" when running against a current, _but that is only in relation to maneuvering in proximity to fixed objects_, such as when approaching a dock, or passing through a narrow bridge, etc... Again, disregarding whatever un-measurable and highly variable anomalies that might occur regarding eddies, or certainly the aerated water created by a breaking following sea, there is simply no physical reason why the flow of water past the rudder will be any different when running at 5 knots of true boatspeed with the current, or against...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

capt vimes said:


> Smack - you should read 'the fatal storm'... A book where a reporter brought together all the stories of those poor souls trapped in the catastrophic sydney to hobart race 1998...
> 
> Long story short:
> A ~40 foot boat has been rolled about 3 times.. The rig was well gone, the crew but the helmsman hunched in the salon... They had enough force from the wind on the naked hull to keep some steerage and were running with the wind in BIG following seas...
> ...


Shooting the curl in a 40 footer - that has to be some sort of record.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

OK, one last shot. We fish out of this entrance every year at Fort Bragg, California, but not in weather like this, worth watching to the end. We had a boat similar to the one in the video.






Paul T


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## aelkin (Feb 3, 2013)

JonE - thank you. 
Well said, well thought out.

I suspect Christian is talking about the perceived improvement (as you said) relative to fixed objects...yes?

Andy


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I thought Morro Bay was the scariest harbour entrance in Cali. I can remember seeing a photo of a big cruiser, like a 50' Chris, standing almost on its transom as a wave hit it while it was going out.

I'll take the tidal currents around here, thank you very much. I'd much rather be swept along by an 8 knot current than a 30' or 40' breaking wave.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

aelkin said:


> JonE - thank you.
> Well said, well thought out.
> 
> I suspect Christian is talking about the perceived improvement (as you said) relative to fixed objects...yes?
> ...


In close quarters (like in a marina), where you want boat speed to be no faster than you're willing to hit something, going against the current is a good thing so that you minimize SOG.

From what I'm reading here (zero personal experience) it seems that slow SOG will not help you. The turbulence, and the swell dropping you on the rocks, would destroy your boat no matter how low your SOG. So you might as well have the maximum SOG possible to get through the cut as quickly as possible. The longer you're there, the more the exposure time, and the more statistics work against you. Plus on a flood current you have less effect of the water stacking up like in an opposing current.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

dabnis said:


> OK, one last shot. We fish out of this entrance every year at Fort Bragg, California, but not in weather like this, worth watching to the end. We had a boat similar to the one in the video.
> 
> storm crisis - YouTube
> 
> Paul T


Looks like they got a major cargo shift when they got rolled on their side. One more reason why I like lead mines.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Yeah, I get that... That's why I wrote "boatspeed "though the water"...", even though that's as redundant as saying something like "knots per hour"...
> 
> Well, you can be the one to re-write some of the Laws of Newtonian Physics, if you can prove that - in theory - your _BOATSPEED_ will be different when running with a current, than when running against...
> 
> ...


_

I guess I cant explain it...just know it and do it thats all I can say at this point...

I have greater control of the helm when there is more water flowing past the rudder WHATEVER the circumstances are than not( we are in essence saying the same I think the more I read what you say)

this is all Im saying and please look at the big picture

if a wave is travelling at 5 knots and you are motoring at the same speed you are practically 1 with the water you are in unison...whatever the wave does you do...

I just dont know how to explain this any other way...unless you maneuver, speed away forward, turn...you are basically one with the wave

in that scenario you are in fact hindered in manueverabilty...as you are at NET ZERO knots...through water

its not speed over ground that gives you maneiverabilty...its speed throgh water or better put waterflow through boat...

if a plane for example is flying at 100 knots...and suddenly gets 100knot or 105knot tail wind...what happens?

seriously?

my grandfather was a aeronautical engineer and he would put these kind of scenarios to me as a kid and I would love problem solving with him...I learned so much...apply this to nautical themes and you can extrapolate results.

I dont want to sound repetitive or redundant or dismissive here but you just feel it when you do it...

there is a point when the wave overtakes you and you speed up with said wave, match speed for a brief period, and then you are kind of like in neutral...

I clearly remeber doing this on my tillered boat going into this estuary down here

I could move the rudder hard over side to side like sculling when boat and wave were at same speed cause you are in theory stalled...

this can also be caused by frothy foamy air filled water which is easier to stall in...or paired with what I have said above in combination creates this situation...

Im not trying to argue or re invent the wheel or get into detail about newtons laws

Im just stating what I have experienced and using science in a way that sort of explains these scenarios

Im not talking engine rpms, where, when etc...

peace_


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

takefive said:


> *in close quarters (like in a marina), where you want boat speed to be no faster than you're willing to hit something, going against the current is a good thing so that you minimize sog.
> *
> ent.


yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :d


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> I thought Morro Bay was the scariest harbour entrance in Cali. I can remember seeing a photo of a big cruiser, like a 50' Chris, standing almost on its transom as a wave hit it while it was going out.


That was the 82' yacht MOJO, chartered by General Patton...

AKA the late actor George C Scott... Interestingly, his wife Trish Van Devere, was supposedly a CG licensed captain - back in the day when that actually _meant_ something


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> if a wave is travelling at 5 knots and you are motoring at the same speed you are practically 1 with the water you are in unison...whatever the wave does you do...


Nope.

Jon is right.

If you are motoring at 5 knots you are going 5 knots through water regardless of current. In the example above, you are doing 5 knots thru water with SOG of 10 knots.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I am not sure whether the COB had PFD, or weren't injured. But if they were in good shape, would it have been better for the powerboat to throw them a line and tow them slowly into the more protected inlet first, then pulled them out of the water? Or could another wave have just separated them and prolonged their exposure and risk of going up on the rocks?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

jorgenl said:


> Nope.
> 
> Jon is right.
> 
> If you are motoring at 5 knots you are going 5 knots through water regardless of current. In the example above, you are doing 5 knots thru water with SOG of 10 knots.


Exactly right - that's what goes on in the channels here - you can fly through WITH the tide but most sailboats aren't fast enough to get through AGAINST the tide.

Here's YouTube vid of boats in Deception Pass in Wa. One is about a 26' and is not making any headway. When they decide to quit and turn back they take off like a ski boat.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

christian.hess said:


> ...if a wave is travelling at 5 knots and you are motoring at the same speed you are practically 1 with the water you are in unison...whatever the wave does you do...


I think what Jon is saying is that your SOW is going to be hull speed no matter what direction a steady current is going. If you're with the current, SOG = SOW + current, if you're against the current, SOG SOW - current. Either way you have the same rudder control, but you will shoot through a lot faster in the former case - for better or worse.

Notice that I referred to "steady current." In a situation of eddies, pulsating undertow, and other fast-changing events, there may be inertial effects that do cause your rudder control to vary erratically. And, in fairness to you, maybe that's what you're trying to explain to us.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking purely from theoretical knowledge of hydrodynamics. No experience making a cut like this, though I've done a few following seas in my vast 4 years of experience .


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> That was the 82' yacht MOJO, chartered by General Patton...
> 
> AKA the late actor George C Scott... Interestingly, his wife Trish Van Devere, was supposedly a CG licensed captain - back in the day when that actually _meant_ something


That's the one. I didn't know about Scott being on it - he was probably the one who made the decision to try to go out. 

82' - WOW. That was one monster wave.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> In a situation of eddies, pulsating undertow, and other fast-changing events, there may be inertial effects that do cause your rudder control to vary erratically.


Very much so - I've seen substantial boats do complete 360's in channels here when running with the tide - some monster whirlpools form but even the small ones can spin a 30 footer in circles.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jorgenl said:


> Nope.
> 
> Jon is right.
> 
> If you are motoring at 5 knots you are going 5 knots through water regardless of current. In the example above, you are doing 5 knots thru water with SOG of 10 knots.


in theory yes

in practice well you know what they say

im sorry I even tried

you are stalled in water if you are going the same speed

put a cork in a bathtub...push and make a wave...cork and wave move as one, albet briefly till one loses momentum faster than the other in this case cork

enough said

ps. I was talking about waves in the last 4 or so pots...NOT CURRENT

no point dragging this on forever

peace


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

SloopJonB said:


> Very much so - I've seen substantial boats do complete 360's in channels here when running with the tide - some monster whirlpools form but even the small ones can spin a 30 footer in circles.


this is what Im getting at...seen it many times

my last persnal experience was as so

islander 34 stalled rudder(this is a design flaw as the rudder is too small)

eddy right off santa cruz, right before you turn left to go in towards the pier

right after getting lightly in the lee if that bluff...you lose all blistering wind in seconds

there is a algae seaweed bank that also does interesting stuff in the water too

my point here is as so...I could not get out of this "slow cricling water" with what wind I had..

I was slowly ever so slowly turning...as soon as I would tack, get some barely movement trhough water it wasnt enough and I got backwinded in the circling pool

tried goin downwind briefly...only to find that speed thrugh water was nill...so I had no way of modifying direction...I tried everything...sculling...rowing...backwinding sails, etc...

it just wasnt enough...excacerbeted by the small rudder...

my point all along has been that in certain circumstances you can have no maneuverability in specific scenarios


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> I think what Jon is saying is that your SOW is going to be hull speed no matter what direction a steady current is going. If you're with the current, SOG = SOW + current, if you're against the current, SOG SOW - current. Either way you have the same rudder control, but you will shoot through a lot faster in the former case - for better or worse.
> 
> Notice that I referred to "steady current." In a situation of eddies, pulsating undertow, and other fast-changing events, there may be inertial effects that do cause your rudder control to vary erratically. And, in fairness to you, maybe that's what you're trying to explain to us.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm speaking purely from theoretical knowledge of hydrodynamics. No experience making a cut like this, though I've done a few following seas in my vast 4 years of experience .


im just not explaining my experiences correctly

this is why sailing schools should ALWAYS focus more on practice than theory...just like for example captains license shools...most are rubbish and absolutely positively no help to any prospective "captain" seeker focusing so much on merchant jargon and no testing whatsoever in seamanship, handling and boat maneuvering.

so with that said...how about some more zumaia pics...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> I guess I cant explain it...just know it and do it thats all I can say at this point...
> 
> I have greater control of the helm when there is more water flowing past the rudder WHATEVER the circumstances are than not( we are in essence saying the same I think the more I read what you say)
> 
> ...


I'm afraid you're looking at this making a common assumption that many make... Namely, that the movement of of water in waves is primarily _HORIZONTAL_, or "at one with the wave", to use you words...

Well, in general terms, it is not... Rather, the movement of the particles of water within each wave is _ORBITAL_, and gets 'left behind' with the horizontal movement or passage of each wave:










Again, I'm speaking in very broad, general terms here... But if your boat begins 'surfing' down the face of a wave - the speed of the boat is thus temporarily 'matching' the speed of the wave - and you have the presence of mind to look at your speed instrument, it will rarely be registering close to Zero 

This Volvo 70 is probably close to matching the 'speed' of the open ocean wave she is quartering... Yet, I somehow doubt their speedo is only showing a speed in the single digits 










Now, where all this theory goes to hell, of course, is in the Real World... Certainly, given the orbital motion of water particles within each wave, there will be times where the flow of water past the rudder will differ along various points of the wave's surface... And, of course, once a wave breaks, all bets are off... The combination of the extreme aeration/'foaming' of the water, and actual horizontal movement of the water that a breaking wave can create, can easily create the condition you describe, and where virtually all rudder control or effect is lost... That's why maintaining speed - within limits, naturally - can be so critical sailing off the wind in big seas, or when running an inlet... And, why the absolute worst thing that can happen when running an inlet is to be overtaken by a breaking sea... Unless you've taken the decision to employ the storm tactic of streaming a drogue, where you've basically surrendered the ability to steer, the biggest mistake many make running off in heavy seas is moving too slowly, and lessening your ability to maneuver or retain steerage...


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

You guys are confusing current with waves. Current is the movement of water as in current in rivers or tidal currents. Waves are energy passing through the water medium. The water molecules themselves do relatively little horizontal movement. (They actually do a circular movement.) It is the acceleration down the wave face that gives you the “surf” down the wave. The waves do not “push”, you “ride” the energy down the face.

The rule of thumb for the Potato Patch is not to cross it in an ebb tide (current) in the afternoon when the wind comes up. The resulting waves build up over the shoals and the opposing current provides resistance to the wave action causing them to increase in amplitude. 

I see that Jon has beat me to the punch.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

If your boat is not under power/sail and is sitting in water that is moving at 5knots then your boat is moving at 5knots and is out of control because you have no water moving over the rudder. If you throttle up until your log shows 5knots in water that is already moving at 5knots, you regain control of your rudder and your boat is moving at 10knots over ground.

I think thats what Christian was trying to express and if it was, he is correct.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> You guys are confusing current with waves. Current is the movement of water as in current in rivers or tidal currents. Waves are energy passing through the water medium. The water molecules themselves do relatively little horizontal movement. (They actually do a circular movement.) It is the acceleration down the wave face that gives you the "surf" down the wave. *The waves do not "push", you "ride" the energy down the face.
> *
> The rule of thumb for the Potato Patch is not to cross it in an ebb tide (current) in the afternoon when the wind comes up. The resulting waves build up over the shoals and the opposing current provides resistance to the wave action causing them to increase in amplitude.
> 
> I see that Jon has beat me to the punch.


yeah I just dont see why Im being taken out of context IM NOT TALKING ABOUT SURFING WHILE SAILING LIKE ON VOLVO 70S

Im not talking about sailing into currents or with

Im not talking about this

and regarding the bold lettering...the technique used here for entering this estuary safely IS IN FACT LETTING THE WAVES BREAK within a safe distance, and letting the white water push you in...its safer becaiuse you are not ever surfing, especially like the video shows or ever being in a tube

there are so manny theories and examples being shown here that have NOTHING to do with what my posts are talking about and I simply need to explain better this is my issue

how volvo 70s git into this I have no idea...I havent borught up laser sailing into this or hobie cat sailing or cruise ship control...so lets keep it in perspective...

or if not let me know and im out...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

boatpoker said:


> If your boat is not under power/sail and is sitting in water that is moving at 5knots then your boat is moving at 5knots and is out of control because you have no water moving over the rudder. If you throttle up until your log shows 5knots in water that is already moving at 5knots, you regain control of your rudder and your boat is moving at 10knots over ground.
> 
> I think thats what Christian was trying to express and if it was, he is correct.


thank you this sums it up

if you are a sitting duck...in a bar entrance...a wave is coming...at 5 knots...it will take a while for you to attain wave speed...

in that time frame you will experience different amounts of throttle and rudder control...

and at some point you will have stalled rudder control since you will match wave speed...if this does not make sense to some

just try it you can only re attain rudder and control while

moving at an angle to wave, throttling UP significantly to overtake wave or reverse into remaining waves


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> *and you have the presence of mind to look at your speed instrument,* it will rarely be registering close to Zero


Im afraid you hit the nail on the head UNKNOWINGLY

briefly if you have a very good manual knotmeter that registers speed through water

in fact you will briefly go down to 0 or close to(depending on speedo accuracy and if gear driven or not etc)

as when you match wave speed you will register in fact close to zero

not gps, or speed over ground..im talking THROUGH WATER

try to envision what Im saying...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> yeah I just dont see why Im being taken out of context IM NOT TALKING ABOUT SURFING WHILE SAILING LIKE ON VOLVO 70S


Well, sorry, but you are, having written this earlier:



> if a wave is travelling at 5 knots and you are motoring at the same speed you are practically 1 with the water you are in unison...whatever the wave does you do...
> 
> I just dont know how to explain this any other way...unless you maneuver, speed away forward, turn...you are basically one with the wave
> 
> in that scenario you are in fact hindered in manueverabilty...as you are at NET ZERO knots...through water


A sailboat moving at the same speed of a wave, that's commonly referred to as "surfing"... The boats that win races to Hawaii are typically the ones who maximize the amount of time spent doing this, of course...



christian.hess said:


> Im afraid you hit the nail on the head UNKNOWINGLY
> 
> briefly if you have a very good manual knotmeter that registers speed through water
> 
> ...


Volvo 70s are among the very few boats on the planet that can routinely match or exceed the speed of open ocean wind waves, to "be at one with them" as you say, and "surf" them for at least briefly sustained periods of time...

Hey, you want to believe that their boatspeed "through the water" is approaching ZERO during these periods when their speed matches the speed of these Southern Ocean swells, well... everyone's free to believe what they want to believe, I guess 






So, if our boatspeed approaches Zero when we match the speed of open water waves, does this mean that the vast majority of us who sail boats that travel considerably slower than most waves are, in effect, sustaining a _NEGATIVE_ boatspeed, whenever we are being overtaken by 'faster' moving waves?

Damn, who wants to break the news to Killarney Sailor that he just sailed around the world, technically at least, _BACKWARDS_ ? Or, that the winner of last year's Transpac actually spent much of their time "going nowhere", through the water?

)


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

jon, christian...
i think you are both right in a way and wrong in another...
while in a wave the water does not move very much horizontally but in circles more or less, you could get an almost zero reading from the speedo when the wave comes from the aft lifting the stern...
in that situation the water in the wave moves forward and down rather quickly and that is exactly the point where you have very little rudder response... i think everybody knows that particular situation.
once you climbed the face of the wave and started surfing, rudder response and speed through the water comes back since you accelerated by sheer gravity pulling your boat down the slope...


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Ouch. Ok that was all kinds of crazy. 

Take your point Christian about what is normal etc in this part of the world. I also see what your saying in terms of best techniques with entering a bar/trying to negotiate or surfing a wave. 

We do have alot of fearsome bars/river entrances here on the east coast of Australia. I am a self confessed coward on this, I would prefer to sail an extra 100nm(and have more than once) rather than attempt even a moderately bad bar crossing. This might just be me, it probably is, I readily admit to not being an expert on bar crossings. That is kind of my point though, without the experience I am not putting my family and yacht through that.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Certainly shows why harnesses and jacklines are useful...


That is a tough call. Jacklines could have beat those sailers up pretty good in that situation. What if the boat were to lose the keel on the ground, turtle, and start bashing into the rocks?

I did this Mac race where two sailors died, probably because of their jacklines. The evidence was that they heat their heads when the boat turtled. Many wonder if they would have just been better off not being tethered in.

Just food for thought.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

I always thought that if I had to run an inlet under extreme conditions that it would be best to wait for slack water or if that was not possible wait for wind and current to be in the same direction.(probably on a flood rather than the ebb if coming from offshore) I've run some pretty bad inlets in power boats and the best method is keeping the boat on the back of the wave as you enter. I don't think that is possible with the low power of a sailboat so trying to time your entrance between some "lower" wave heights might work?

There's some you tube videos of fishing boats entering the Columbia River Bar. Not something that I would want to do even in the Coast Guard boats used for training there.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capt vimes said:


> jon, christian...
> i think you are both right in a way and wrong in another...
> while in a wave the water does not move very much horizontally but in circles more or less, you could get an almost zero reading from the speedo when the wave comes from the aft lifting the stern...
> *in that situation the water in the wave moves forward and down rather quickly and that is exactly the point where you have very little rudder response... i think everybody knows that particular situation.*


Yes, you are absolutely right about that particular element of wave behavior, and I've already acknowledged that... Still, in the real world, where open water waves are likely to be traveling at 25 knots or more - or roughly 3X the wave period in seconds, as a general rule - it seems highly unlikely that most boats "matching" that speed at the crest or down the face will be showing anything remotely close to a boatspeed of 0, or that the circulation of water particles within the wave's structure are rapid or broad enough to produce that effect...

Again, once a wave begins to crest, or break, all bets are off, and chaos ensues... That's where truly horizontal and forward motion of water can occur, 'solid' water turns to foam, and flow of water past the rudder can be lost completely...

The primary flaw in christian's scenario, is in using the example of a theoretical wave speed of 5 knots when talking about running an inlet or bar entrance... A wave moving at such a low rate of speed would necessarily have to be so small, as to be insignificant in its potential effect on the size of boats most of us would be sailing upon the ocean with...


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

well yes...
regarding this formula:








the speed of waves is a direct result of their wavelength...
ocean waves tend to have large wavelengths and thus higher speeds than short waves like you get them in the med...
you can leave the part with the water depth aside for deep water... i think it only starts playing a significant role if depth comes down to ~3 times wavelength...

so a 20 m wave (pretty short) travels with 5,59 m/s -> 10,9 kts ... sounds right...
because i have overtaken these short waves in the med on some occasions already, having a reading of 12-13 kts at that time...
it is good fun, if you surf down the face and bury the bow up to the hatches in the trough... 
informative site:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/watwav2.html


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, sorry, but you are, having written this earlier:
> 
> A sailboat moving at the same speed of a wave, that's commonly referred to as "surfing"... The boats that win races to Hawaii are typically the ones who maximize the amount of time spent doing this, of course...
> 
> ...


how could you be surfing at 5 knots...Im not and you are not understanding me

I think Ill leav it be...in that quote how do you come to the conclusion im talking about being under sail sirfind down the face of the wave...where?

Im sorry but this is just not so...on a post further along someone sums it up nicely too

on power boats you come in on the back of the wave...since its hard to do on a sailboat you are better off simply timing you sets and coming in while being pushed in by some and being on top of others and sometimes it can get scary when yo start "surfing" the faces of waves down

by the way I dont know what entrances you have been going in with 25 knots speed waves

at slack high tide or just about to change to ebb the speed of waves are very small...

you get a lot of up and down waves...from the sides and the sets of waves arent as noticeable as when at low tide or max flood etc...

anywhoo


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, sorry, but you are, having written this earlier:
> 
> A sailboat moving at the same speed of a wave, that's commonly referred to as "surfing"... The boats that win races to Hawaii are typically the ones who maximize the amount of time spent doing this, of course...
> 
> ...


dude with al due respect yo are just quoting things thatnhave nothing to do with what Im saying...

im not talking about volvos 70s matching wave and overtaking them...I know that and have seen them plow into the wave ahead of them

Im talking about our measly boats doing 5 knots or so into an inlet

do what you please but please stop taking me out of context...I thought I would add my experience both physical and little theoretical

but at no point have I said the things you think Im saying
Im not saying you are not travelling, and Im also not saying that if you match a wave speed all around the world you have made no speed at all or zero

I just dont know where you get this from

Im saying once again that very breifly while entering harbors or inlet or where waves can be matched by your own power good knotmeters, manual ones will in fact go down to close to zero

briefly

because in that brief moment you match the wave speed you are in the waves turf if you will

that doesnt mean yo are not moving overall never have I said that

do you understand what Im trying to say or are yo just going to keep on quiting volvo 70s and round the world sailors and telling them christian said yo travelledbackwards or nothing

I mean I just dont understand where you can get that from my posts

cheers


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

a wave with a wavelength of 100 m travels at 24,29 knots...
not that seldom in big oceans... don't you think?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Im NOT TALKING ABOUT OCEAN WAVES FOR PETES SAKE

where have I started to talk about high latitude sailing?

I have strictly maintained my posts to talking about entering inlets or estuaries in my case, my vagueness in not deifinng exactly where might have caused some to think othewise Im sorry about that only.

the wave speeds at high tide are anything but 25knot speeds


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> how could you be surfing at 5 knots...Im not and you are not understanding me


Well, you have referred to "matching the speed of the wave" on more than one occasion... In common parlance, a boat doing that on the crest or face of a wave is considered by most to be "surfing" that particular wave...



christian.hess said:


> by the way I dont know what entrances you have been going in with 25 knots speed waves


Most every inlet I run along the East coast of the US, unless I'm on a boat capable of 18-20 knots at a minimum, I know I'll have difficulty matching the speed of the seas generally encountered, for a sustained period... If I'm on a 'semi-displacement" yacht like a Grand Banks capable of only 15-16 knots, and running a lengthy gauntlet like Oregon Inlet, or St Augustine, in sporty conditions, chances are I'll elect to run at displacement speed, instead, due to the difficulty of keeping up with the seas, or riding the backs of them for a prolonged distance...



christian.hess said:


> at slack high tide or just about to change to ebb the speed of waves are very small...


So, what would you guess would have been the approximate speed of those seas rolling in at Zumaia?

I'm gonna guess "considerably greater than 5 knots..." In any event, I would not be inclined to describe their velocity as "very small"... 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, OK? And I'll stick with my preference for trying to time my arrival at inlets or cuts on the flood, as opposed to the beginning of the ebb... 

cheers...


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> Looks like they got a major cargo shift when they got rolled on their side. One more reason why I like lead mines.


From the looks of the river water it was probably in the winter, time for crabs & some bottom fish. Likely he took on a large amount of water, maybe through an open hatch or door?

Counter currents? We fished Seymour Narrows , north of Campbell River, one scary place:

We have seen it a lot worse, from the shore.






Paul T


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

If you really want to have some fun and learn about how these waves behave... take a whitewater kayak out there and go surfing. YOU will learn ALOT. This is why i am opposed to the chines i see on some of the newer boats. Hook a chine in the surf and you'll know immediately what i'm talking about. (Different topic)
I think surfing has really helped me understand how to handle surf in a sailboat. Kind of going from a dinghy to a big boat. It's hard to explain the gut/instictive feeling you have.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> Im NOT TALKING ABOUT OCEAN WAVES FOR PETES SAKE
> 
> where have I started to talk about high latitude sailing?
> 
> ...


christian:
if you look at the video from post #1 in this thread, you will see that these waves is a swell coming from the open ocean... so they are ocean waves by definition!
the boat is said to be a 36' so ~10 m in length - now look at it again and tell me what you think the wavelength of those waves would be?
i guess it is about 60 m give or take...
the formula i posted above is a universal one, valid for everything above an wavelength of water waves of 1,73 cm (yes - that is a centimeter)...
if we put the 60 m into my posted formula, those waves are approaching the shore with 18,81 knots... they look so slow, but they aren't!
sure they are getting slowed down and steepened when they reach shallower water, but by no means are they getting slowed down to 5 knots...
for instance: a 60 m swell is slowed down in 10 m water depth to 16,62 knots, in 5 m to 13,04 knots...
sorry - but that is physics...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

capt vimes said:


> jon, christian...
> i think you are both right in a way and wrong in another...
> while in a wave the water does not move very much horizontally but in circles more or less, you could get an almost zero reading from the speedo when the wave comes from the aft lifting the stern...
> in that situation the water in the wave moves forward and down rather quickly and that is exactly the point where you have very little rudder response... i think everybody knows that particular situation.
> once you climbed the face of the wave and started surfing, rudder response and speed through the water comes back since you accelerated by sheer gravity pulling your boat down the slope...


That makes perfect sense to me.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> Im NOT TALKING ABOUT OCEAN WAVES FOR PETES SAKE
> 
> where have I started to talk about high latitude sailing?
> 
> ...


Sure, but everyone knows that a bear on a surfboard in super-cold Arctic waves would never be able to make a proper pizza while entering a harbor.

How on earth could you possibly think that?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I dont know what the above means...I think I am losing a lot in translation and Im not being able to express mysefl correctly

by the way waves entering that harbor are not ocean waves as expressed on the vovo 70 vid

but we are arguing different points and nitpicking in order te expound eachothers weak presentations

all I can offer at this point is help or tips on entering such harbors

prefferably on a boat...so thats all I can help with

too much nitpicking and theory too little action or visible mediums to express what Im trying to say so I fail at that...

sorry guys

carry on


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Sure, but everyone knows that a bear on a surfboard in super-cold Arctic waves would never be able to make a proper pizza while entering a harbor.
> 
> How on earth could you possibly think that?


if im reading right the reason is because some here have expressed that waves are waves no matter where and that for 100m fetch or whatever they are 25knot speed...

my point was they are hardly that speed in an inlet at high tide for example even if they are coming from the sea...

I dont...just seems we are all getting side tracked here so I apologize for this

in conclusion let me just say that there is a rally down here coming soon

its called the el salvador rally

they leave any place in mexico and arrive here these months

there is always a sailboat that gets it ALL wrong, entering and also leaving...and its because they lack the experience to do so...not their fault, but it is if they start getting hard headed.

or they dont know in real life how these inlets work so what happens is they get al theoritcal and start talking gibberish before leaving only to crash badly or even sink yes sink in the inlet

even powerboats have disrespected the sea by simply plowing into it full speed thinking that maintaining speed is the key over ground, or water whatever

so Ill leave with saying this

do it learn how to and practice...if someone tells you that speed saves you they are wrong...a brain does and experience...

learn from those who have done it and try it yourself...

*timing is key as is a cool head.*..

what captains should be all about

enough with all the theory

peace


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

capt vimes said:


> christian:
> if you look at the video from post #1 in this thread, you will see that these waves is a swell coming from the open ocean... so they are ocean waves by definition!
> the boat is said to be a 36' so ~10 m in length - now look at it again and tell me what you think the wavelength of those waves would be?
> i guess it is about 60 m give or take...
> ...


im not arguing this and understand this...and thanks for the actual math....

all im saying is its possible to lose control of maneuverabilty when certain speeds are matched...i.e wave speed to current boat speed, etc...in certain scenarios not vendee globe stuff etc...

we are talking about entering inlets

forthy air waves, turbulence etc...all play a factor in how a boat, specifically a sailboat has such a hard time entering and why timining is the most important issue

(btw I have seen hobies and planing dinghies enter ports and places like this but ut requires such and extreme amount of skill that it would be a fallacy to try to even explain how to on a forum

you get the freakin crap scared out of you when doing so...but once you do it its like riding a bike...you know when, and how)

in reference to the video and the issues the captain had entering said port and the mistakes he made

thanks

ps. out of curiosity with those experienced with entering such ports Id be interested to know what you think were the biggest mistakes made

Id like to know to compare with what I deem most important...

maybe we can make a brief 5 point list.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

benesailor said:


> If you really want to have some fun and learn about how these waves behave... take a whitewater kayak out there and go surfing. YOU will learn ALOT. This is why i am opposed to the chines i see on some of the newer boats. Hook a chine in the surf and you'll know immediately what i'm talking about. (Different topic)
> I think surfing has really helped me understand how to handle surf in a sailboat. Kind of going from a dinghy to a big boat. It's hard to explain the gut/instictive feeling you have.


dinghy sailing is a must if you ever want to be a profficient sailor, or control big boats

it teaches you everything....

one issue I have with a lot of cruisers and sailors these days is the absolute NON EXPERIENCE 1 or 2 of the partners have in any sort of dinghy...

some have no small boat handling experience, dinghy sailing, powerboat handling, etc...experience at all

what this creates is a very narrowminded select group of cruisers who play off "their" experience and its especially noticeable in groups that buddy boat, or rallies, or small cruises etc...

you imediately get the sense that its blind leading the blind or that there is an alpha boat with other boats following sheepishly

and this is not intended to offend but lay truth to why people often are so vociferous in expounding their points of view...

again not being mean hearted but truthfull...

I have seen it so many times I forget to mention it more

expounding points of view has litte force behind it talking about for example torres straight passaging, or panama canal handling or entering ZUMAIA if you havent done it...

so with that said, since I havent done it Ill stop now... I can only relate to my experience here and other inlets, entrances, sand bars etc...

peace


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

christian.hess said:


> im not arguing this and understand this...and thanks for the actual math....
> 
> all im saying is its possible to lose control of maneuverabilty when certain speeds are matched...i.e wave speed to current boat speed, etc...in certain scenarios not vendee globe stuff etc...
> 
> ...


OK, I will start:

1. Don't have anyone on deck in rough conditions

2. If you are hesitating, listen to your instincts, wait for slack, then re-consider again.

3. Don't be in a hurry

Paul T


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> I dont know what the above means...I think I am losing a lot in translation and Im not being able to express mysefl correctly
> 
> by the way waves entering that harbor are not ocean waves as expressed on the vovo 70 vid
> 
> ...


Christian - I was joking with you. My post above was illustrating how things can start spinning way out of control by someone saying stuff you never said or meant...then the conversation goes from there in completely the wrong direction.

It was just silliness that meant nothing - and underscored your point that you've been primarily talking about harbor entrances not open ocean racing.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Christian - I was joking with you. My post above was illustrating how things can start spinning way out of control by someone saying stuff you never said or meant...then the conversation goes from there in completely the wrong direction.
> 
> It was just silliness that meant nothing - and underscored your point that you've been primarily talking about harbor entrances not open ocean racing.


And Smack is the expert at that. He once quoted exerts from a post of mine in such a way that it had a completely different meaning. Just ignore him - everyone else tries to.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Sure, but everyone knows that a bear on a surfboard in super-cold Arctic waves would never be able to make a proper pizza while entering a harbor.
> 
> How on earth could you possibly think that?


I don't think you can make a blanket statement like that. Are we talking polar or grizzly bear? New York or Chicago style pizza?

I think that *some* bears could make a proper pizza in *some* harbors, and I dare you to prove otherwise.

If you recursively apply bear + 1 = bear^2 + pizza, where both bear and pizza are complex, you'll see what I mean. It's physics.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Sure, but everyone knows that a bear on a surfboard in super-cold Arctic waves would never be able to make a proper pizza while entering a harbor.
> 
> How on earth could you possibly think that?


Was it a steel surfboard??? And was the pizza woodfired??


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## Bradhamlet (Nov 8, 2002)

So how would you take this inlet? Yes I read the wait offshore idea, however let's say you thought it wasn't too bad and you just went for it. Sure get all hands clipped in or down below. Would it have been wise to watch behind you at the incoming waves? Could you have turned the helm fast enough to avoid the swell? Not sure much could have been differently.

Brad 
Lancer 36


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

one thing we havent talked about is boat design...and yes that makes people get even more mad or defensive

a big ass stern is exactly what you dont want in this scenario but since there are so many new designers that are proponents of having more reserve buoyancy the point is mute or gets nixed over any bad attribute they have.

a nice wine glass shaped with a significant overhang would of had less resistance to the massive wave...

no this doesnt mean Im advocating canoe sterns or all double enders(they have their own issues) but some sterns take hits better than others

I know Im going to get hammered for this one too but thats life

oh. and about being tethered I might have said before they should of been but honestly in this scenario playing back again in this location its good they werent...

sometimes its easier to simply scedadle out of there...or away from moving objects

jeje seems I cant stop commenting on this thread

peace


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Bradhamlet said:


> So how would you take this inlet? Yes I read the wait offshore idea, however let's say you thought it wasn't too bad and you just went for it. Sure get all hands clipped in or down below. Would it have been wise to watch behind you at the incoming waves? Could you have turned the helm fast enough to avoid the swell? Not sure much could have been differently.
> 
> Brad
> Lancer 36


I can't imagine ever being such an idiot as to be determined to run that inlet in spite of all common sense and good judgment, and without regard for the safety of myself, my boat, my passengers and the financial solvency of my insurance company. I can imagine someone blundering into it, not fully realizing just how bad it is. If that happened, I would open the throttle to keep the boat moving, and don't let the boat get sideways to the waves. Those are the two most crucial elements. I would watch over my shoulder to be sure the boat is aligned with the waves. If the first wave is bad enough, it might knock the boat down. If the first wave doesn't get you, often the second wave will. What happens is that, if the first wave rolls under the boat, the boat loses momentum when it is in the trough between the waves. Then, without momentum, the boat has no steerageway, and it turns sideways to the waves, and the next wave rolls you over. That's why the engine should be at full throttle. You don't need to worry about the engine pushing the boat too fast, because, as the first wave rolls under you from astern, and lifts the boat, the boat will race down the face of the wave far faster than the engine could ever possibly push it. When the boat is in the trough between the first and second wave, the engine can keep the boat going enough to provide steerageway, so that you can prevent it from getting sideways to the waves.

I blundered into some breakers when I was a newbie and didn't see it coming, and was fortunate enough to make it. Now, if the conditions for entering an inlet are in any serious doubt, I'll wait outside for the windspeed or wind direction to change. Usually something improves in an hour or two.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

just saw the video yet again...towards the end you can see its slack tide...the sailboat standing by is not moving and the swells are minimal

this really needs to be looked at better


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

All I can remember was that when I was trying to size up a particular situation, it always seemed worse than what I thought it was going to be once I got into it. Fortunately, we got through a number of situations where we shouldn't have been out there in the first place.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Just like when using your table saw, don't force your work, and don't try to use work that doesn't fit. In other words, just don't do it if you have doubts.

Paul T


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yeah I agree...when in doubt let it out...or in this case go out but honestly I think this skipper has done this MANY times, its his homeport and he just crapped it this time in...

you can see that after the guys fall overboard there is a slight current(normal) out to sea, slightly pulling them towards the left but notice how little current or movement in the actual channel...its slack tide or close to it...

im not seeing any massive EBB anywhere...this is false as some have stated...there is no potato patchy conditions or massive wind versus current equals choppy waves or at least causing bigger waves...

this swell is simply the swell usually found here...maybe just a little bigger tghan usual

notice how calm it is as soon as he is in slightly...the waves are NOT coming directly in but Im guesstimating around a 60 degree angle to the pier or inlet...meaning thats why he hugged the rocks so much

what he missed the boat on BIGTIME was simply not paying attention to the "rogue" one that hit....or timing...and he does in fact slow down...

maybe since he has done it so much he confidently thought he was clear...but oh no!

you can also clearly see he was slightly turned to stbd the moment of impact aggravating and furiosly making the whip or turn more drastic

honestly I think these guys just got a bad rap...and did a mistake that cost them

well thats to be seen...

and looking at the video again and the shots off to sea this is anything but furious sea conditions and like I said before quite normal conditions for this area

I will stand by these comments...


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> jeje seems I cant stop commenting on this thread


Thats Ok, the first step is admitting you have a problem.
Only eleven steps to go


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Bradhamlet said:


> So how would you take this inlet? Yes I read the wait offshore idea, however let's say you thought it wasn't too bad and you just went for it. Sure get all hands clipped in or down below. Would it have been wise to watch behind you at the incoming waves? Could you have turned the helm fast enough to avoid the swell? Not sure much could have been differently.
> 
> Brad
> Lancer 36


I tend to agree with you. Apart from not entering at all - I'm not sure much could be done differently.

1. Crew on Deck - it was primarily those in the cockpit ("where they should have been") that took a swim. Had everyone been down below, that would have been a disaster as well. The speed and force with which that boat slammed over would almost certainly have caused serious injury to anyone below. So, being tied in via tether (based on the mastman and bowman hanging on and staying on) - would probably have been the best option here.

2. The Turn to Starboard - to me it looks like he was desperately trying to get around that corner for protection (where he eventually ended up). I don't necessarily think that was a mistake in steering - it was just too late. (Actually I just watched it again - and it appears he's turning back to port to square the stern right before the impact. He just didn't make it. Even so, I think the broach was inevitable.)

3. The Stern Shape - I agree that the wide stern's buoyancy likely caused the increased speed and force of the broach. But, as has been mentioned above, had there been a finer stern, and had the helmsman stayed precisely stern-on to that wave, the force of that water pooping the cockpit directly would have been a disaster of its own. The broach to starboard was probably the least destructive outcome.

4. The Inlet Was Open - I'm _assuming_ this to be the case, of course. But if the harbormaster had not closed it, I'm certainly not going to call this guy (who had presumably run it many times before) an idiot. He just got caught (he _was_ almost clear after all). I do wish we could have seen more of the wave action at the seawall. If the explosion that we see when they get hit has been happening fairly often (for example, the reason they do a 360 prior to trying the run) - then his decision is definitely more questionable. That's a huge freakin' wave.

To me the lesson is - don't run the bar when it's at all questionable. Of course, that means the VERY HARD choice of being delayed and inconvenienced when all you (and your crew) want to do is get home...and it's "right there".

I hope I'm wise enough to swallow the inconvenience when the time comes.

(PS - the hardest part of that video is, from the MOB's POV, watching your boat/crew head up the channel without you. Couldn't they have at least stood-by?)


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Sailormon6 said:


> I can't imagine ever being such an idiot...


I think that's a little harsh. It was easy to see that wave coming ahead of time, especially since I saw it the first 10 times I watched the video.  Why didn't he see it coming? Didn't he watch the video first like the rest of us? 

That looks like a pretty rough area, but it's very possible that the conditions were pretty normal (for that area) up until the rogue wave hit. I don't know his level of local knowledge, or his skills, but it's entirely possible that everything he saw up until the point of no return was typical for that location. That might have been why nobody was clipped in, and the two guys were up front. Ironic, though, that they were the ones that stayed aboard. How long would it have taken to regain control of the boat if everyone was down below, and the captain was swept overboard (as he appeared to have been in this case)?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> (PS - the hardest part of that video is, from the MOB's POV, watching your boat/crew head up the channel without you. Couldn't they have at least stood-by?)


dare I say it?

maybe this has happened before here?

the nonchallance attitude or btdt attitude of the boat might attest to this..

its obvious the skiffs are from the harbor or marina...

kind of like in san fran bay skiffs are mandatory for club member resuces or any help they need for that matter


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Im looking up info in spanish as we speak...gives another perspective

notice the sails? ghow they are rolled up and the fabric?

these guys are profficient regatta racers...that might explain the non challance attitude

simply put they are used to this

http://www.elcorreo.com/videos/ulti...taculares-imagenes-velero-volcado-zumaia.html

this other link says 2 sailors had life vests...the others didnt...the 4 that went overboard could not overcome the "riptides" or currents according to this article

http://www.abc.es/sociedad/20140227/abci-velero-engullido-puerto-zumaia-201402272044.html

AND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG

in spanish for those that can read spanish:

http://www.lamarsalada.info/2014/02/espectacular-vuelco-de-un-velero-en.html

*La entrada y salida de barcos del puerto de Zumaia ha sido siempre muy complicada y peligrosa, ya que la orientación de la barra o malecón con respecto a la dirección de las olas no ha sido nunca la adecuada, por lo cual ha habido innumerables accidentes, la mayoría sin consecuencias trágicas...*

1. this entrance has always been complicated due to the orientation of the pier(I figured 60 degrees or so angle to the wave pattern its probably less)

2. it says there have been numerous accidents here...normal.

3. it says the majority of "accidents" are almost all the time HARMLESS

ps. the boat in question is a bavaria 38

and thats how the cookie crumbles

hope this helps


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> dare I say it?
> 
> maybe this has happened before here?
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think you're right. I also watched the water pretty closely before and after the hit. As they were heading in, there was some spume-ish foam on the surface, but nothing like the full layer of foam that was left behind by the wave that hit them. Then, in all their time in the water, no other wave that big came through (leaving the same amount of foam as that big one). It seems like they just got hit by a monster.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

christian.hess said:


> one thing we havent talked about is boat design...and yes that makes people get even more mad or defensive
> 
> a big ass stern is exactly what you dont want in this scenario but since there are so many new designers that are proponents of having more reserve buoyancy the point is mute or gets nixed over any bad attribute they have.
> 
> ...


That beam on that boat is not brought aft, meaning, it is not a big stern.

I don't think that really matters much, I mean the stern design in what regards to be caught by a wave like that but the much bigger stability of a very beamy boat with all beam pulled aft can. A boat like that will offer a much bigger resistance to be capsized and that can make the difference on a situation like this.

Regards

Paulo


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

excerpt from a patron that came in RIGHT BEFORE THE BAVARIA(this is what they call skippers or owner skippers of boats in spain)

*
"Había mar de fondo pero nada del otro mundo. Tuvimos regata y al entrar.... Verdadera mala suerte, porque es una ola excepcional. En fin, de los 4 que cayeron dos llegaban chaleco, no asi los otros entre los que estaba el patrón. Hablamos con ellos cuando llegaron al pantalan, estaban tranquilos y no pasaron miedo en ningún momento. Los dos que no tenían chaleco se agarraron a los que tenían y como no podían nadar se tumbaron a la "plancha" mientras llegaba la ayuda. Un susto con una ola inesperada..."
(Declaraciones de un patrón que había entrado un rato antes)
*

the first sentence reads HABIA MAR DE FONDO...this is a common saying meaning that the sea was big and long, translated to in english loosely as the wave pattern and wind had been like this for a while

but right after he says nothing out of this world, reffering to the seemingly common again I stress this conditions found here....


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ja!

guess what guys...I feel redeemed

skipper of boat said he just had bad luck

the people that fell overboard said they were never in fear cause tghis is normal

they were all racers and used to this their home port

simply put this was a rogue wave in a usually unpleasent inlet or entrance given the physical defficiencies of the pier orientation..and the normal weather conditions and most importantly the wrong angle of the pier and how it "should" protect the entrance better

cheers guys

again hope this helps

Id be glad to competely translate any quotes deemmed necessary


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

and this last bit a recount of the accidents:

Prácticos de puerto

there have been 2 accidents that have resulted in death

one in 1931 and another in 1956...not such a bad record given the circumstances

zumaya apparently is well known as a BAD ENTRANCE but given the nature if the basque and what I was implying in my first posts stubborn and quite hard headed and perseverant....

meaning they just deal with it and live with it.

peace


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

christian.hess said:


> ...
> 
> *La entrada y salida de barcos del puerto de Zumaia ha sido siempre muy complicada y peligrosa, ya que la orientación de la barra o malecón con respecto a la dirección de las olas no ha sido nunca la adecuada, por lo cual ha habido innumerables accidentes, la mayoría sin consecuencias trágicas...*
> 
> ...


Hum... I don't think they say the accidents are normal neither that they are harmless. What is said is:

*Going in and out of Zamaia Port has always been very complicated and dangerous for boats since the bar or seawall position regarding the wave direction never has been adequate and therefore there have been many accidents, most of them without tragic consequences.
*

I would say, like happily this one, meaning without tragic consequences.

Normal and harmless just don't seem to be the right words to translate what was said.

Regards

Paulo


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

it says there have been INUMERABLE ACCIDENTS(meaning a lot) and that they have been mostly without CONSEQUENCE

and if you read the other links I put you can gather that indeed this are COMMON maybe not normal as that seems to be a tricky wored to use here, but COMMON conditions....

the skipper before as well as crewmembers all said they had bad luck...

luck is a very common term used in spain sometimes you have good luck and sometimes bad luck

a conflicting term if anything else

peace


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

PCP said:


> That beam on that boat is not brought aft, meaning, it is not a big stern.
> 
> I don't think that really matters much, I mean the stern design in what regards to be caught by a wave like that but the much bigger stability of a very beamy boat with all beam pulled aft can. A boat like that will offer a much bigger resistance to be capsized and that can make the difference on a situation like this.
> 
> ...


has nothing to do with what Im talking about...

a big stern offers a bigger wall (surface)to be hit...although in this situation it matters not as the rogue wave was so big...

in regards to reserve buoyancy and better abilty to right itself you are right...but again not what I was talking about


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

PCP said:


> That beam on that boat is not brought aft, meaning, it is not a big stern.
> 
> I don't think that really matters much, I mean the stern design in what regards to be caught by a wave like that but the much bigger stability of a very beamy boat with all beam pulled aft can. A boat like that will offer a much bigger resistance to be capsized and that can make the difference on a situation like this.
> 
> ...


Paola,

Can you say that again? I'm not sure I understand. Is the narrower stern better or worse?

Regards,
Brad


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

christian.hess said:


> has nothing to do with what Im talking about...
> 
> a big stern offers a bigger wall (surface)to be hit...although in this situation it matters not as the rogue wave was so big...
> 
> in regards to reserve buoyancy and better abilty to right itself you are right...but again not what I was talking about


I understood what you have said but I am not sure I agree with you. Yes, on one of those big transoms there would be a much bigger surface to the wave but the boat with its huge initial form stability will resist much more to roll movements and when a boat rolls on a wave it loses directional stability and will offer its side to the wave (like that boat on the movie).

So in the end I am not sure what is more advantageous even if a much bigger stability is always an advantage. That's not by accident that those beamy hulls with the beam brought back are designed to surf big waves...and that stability and huge initial stability (resistance to roll) are of the essence.

Regards

Paulo


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yes paulo...the designs for example of the volvo 70 are in fact designed to plane and the large beam aft is in fact for stabilty while planing especially downwind paired with daggerboards, twin rudders the design is purpose built

think of a laser hull

there have been many many books written on offhsore sailing and what designs offer certain advantages on certain situations

for example one would think canoe sterns are ideal for dowwind performance bit in fact they have a bad tendency to hobby horse...even though its a fine entry for a wave...

if you look at what motissier considered perfect it would not be considered perfect nowadays

a fine entry astern paired with an overgang does in fact help the wave glide past you..

carl alberg designs are famous for this as are others.

big fat sterns, especially those offering a flat surface that touch the water(no overhang) are very rough and violent when receiving waves from astern...its recomended to not be ddw in this scenarios but offer a nice quarter o the waves

motissier recomended this technique in the roaring 40s...offer a slight angle to the wave pattern, so as to be glided over by the big waves and not dead on and pushed...he said that when pushed what ofetn happend to him on joshua was that he was overpowered and usually pushed to one side resulting in a broack usually to windward so he fixed his issue by offering his quarter...and what would happen is the wave glided under him even though it was ru,bling and or breaking...

just one of those things...you have to be knowleadgeable about YOUR BOAT and how it reacts.

anyways

different topics....

in the vid I dont think any stern would offer any benefit given the fact that the wave was so big and unsimilar to the rest of them any stern or similar sized and dimensioned boat would of had the same results...

I am however not talking about righting ability, stability, responsiveness etc...just what the stern does or offers


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

TakeFive said:


> I think that's a little harsh.


It took me awhile to figure out why you thought my comment was "harsh." You apparently thought I was calling the skipper of the boat in the video an "idiot." I was not. I don't know what conditions he expected to encounter when he decided to enter the inlet. I always avoid second-guessing decisions made by others, when I wasn't there to experience all the same circumstances that influenced their decisions. I was replying to another person's inquiry, who was asking a hypothetical question. In my answer, I was referring to any hypothetical skipper who would enter a pass knowing that he would encounter the conditions that were shown in the video.

I don't believe the conditions are always that bad at that inlet. If it was always that bad, nobody would use it. I expect that it is almost always challenging to use that inlet, but nevertheless, do-able. The trick is in figuring out where the fine line should be drawn between do-able and not.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Bene505 said:


> Paola,
> 
> Can you say that again? I'm not sure I understand. Is the narrower stern better or worse?
> 
> ...


Not Paola

Things are not always black and white. Regarding that particular situation that's true that a huge stern will offer a bigger surface to the wave. It is also true that it will offer a superior resistance to roll and a bigger hull form stability (at low angles of heel). I would bet on the beamier boat with big transom but that is something that I have not enough information for more than a bet.

Regarding going downwind surfing big waves (sailing) there is no doubt there, a double ender will be a boat with a much bigger tendency to roll than a beamy fat ass boat and a boat much more dificult to control: why do you think that solo racers and main market cruising boats adopted that hull shape?

Have fun looking at this:






Regards

Paulo


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

That is Cool. 

Where do the little dudes sit?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

cool, but my rc laser(or my brothers) that is, would kick the crap out of this little ocean 65


jajajaa

kidding

rc sailing is fun...you can really learn a lot i do however love the gennaker that is awesome...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

You seem to know very well basque country. Are you a basque or Basque descendant? I, like almost all the Portuguese, love Basque country. Been there many times, including on the mountains sometimes with motorcycles.

Been there also to the inauguration of the Guggenheim museum in Bilbau. I love the food, the people and the traditional rural architecture. When I can I stay on those big rural houses with hundreds of years. I can understand all (and speak some) of the native languages of Spain, all except Basque I love to hear it on the radio but I really can't understand a thing


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yes I was born in spain, Im malagueno...from san pedro de alcantarra...I do however not have a spanish passport yet cause my parents are not from spain and its a long process to get citizenship through permanent stays...my birth certificate is spanish.

speaking basque is almost impossible, its very hard to learn...all I remember is *AGURR*

I specialized my cooking in san sebastian in 2006, (after studying and cooking in san francisco, ca) in the best cooking schools there...went to zarautz, bilbao, many of the places inside, etc...

I have lived in spain a total of 12 years...

I also was into roadbiking(pedal bikes) back then and toured the country side while I was studying...made many friends and went to many places...like mentioned before I was close to getaria along the coast but didnt make it to bilbao or zumaia.

so I guess yes I do know the place a bit but Im not basque

However one of my last names IRAHETA is derived from the basque name *IRAETXA.*..but that doesnt make me an honest descendant


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> ...I specialized my cooking in san sebastian in 2006, (after studying and cooking in san francisco, ca) in the best cooking schools there...


Now I really want to visit your restaurant.

Regards,
Brad


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Bene505 said:


> Now I really want to visit your restaurant.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


jaja

your food offered depends on the location and clientelle you have so for me that means no pintxos or fancy food but simple meats and chicken and fish dishes

every once in a while I go crazy but make no money off it1 jaja ask any chef they say the same...

high end means reputation no money

food for the masses everyone is happy! ajaja

anywhoo back to the basque country its an awesome place to live and work

and SAIL


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## Osprey 26 (Jun 28, 2013)

Probably is much easier to coment after watching video then being there, and doing it.
Not sure what was everybody doing on deck during motoring back to marina in rough conditions they were coming. Higher centre of gravity? Also not sure if this would hurt someone down below more then being thrown overboard as they were. Just newbie questions.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

PCP said:


> Micro bursts are not quite common anywhere....happilly: They can be deadly to airplanes and not only.
> 
> *"A microburst often has high winds that can knock over fully grown trees. They usually last for a duration of a couple of seconds to several minutes....Microbursts are recognized as capable of generating wind speeds higher than 168 mph;."
> *
> ...


A few weeks ago, during the storm that produced tornadoes and intense lightning storms that caused the Daytona 500 to be delayed, I had just set anchor in a very protected anchorage off the ICW when hit by a "microburst." It laid my very stable, full 5000# keel A35 right over on its side. It sounded like a freight train for a few tense seconds. I was right in the middle of a TS, the kind where you see the lightning and hear the cannon go off at the same time: CRACK-BANG. It was probably the strongest wind I have ever encountered on the boat, I'd estimate 75 mph or so, and certainly >50. I was holding on with both hands so couldn't get out my little anemometer to get a precise m/m


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> A few weeks ago, during the storm that produced tornadoes and intense lightning storms that caused the Daytona 500 to be delayed, I had just set anchor in a very protected anchorage off the ICW when hit by a "microburst." It laid my very stable, full 5000# keel A35 right over on its side. It sounded like a freight train for a few tense seconds. I was right in the middle of a TS, the kind where you see the lightning and hear the cannon go off at the same time: CRACK-BANG. It was probably the strongest wind I have ever encountered on the boat, I'd estimate 75 mph or so, and certainly >50. I was holding on with both hands so couldn't get out my little anemometer to get a precise m/m


Our marina got hit with a 75 mph micro-burst last November, during a thunderstorm. It shredded a few biminis and covers (and put a pretty good rip in ours), and snapped one of the docklines on a friend of mine's boat. My wife was across the street in a bank when it happened and watched it. It was over in ten minutes.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Group9 said:


> Our marina got hit with a 75 mph micro-burst last November, during a thunderstorm. It shredded a few biminis and covers (and put a pretty good rip in ours), and snapped one of the docklines on a friend of mine's boat. My wife was across the street in a bank when it happened and watched it. It was over in ten minutes.


Last June I was taking ASA 104 on Lake Superior and we got hit by a particularly bad front. IIRC the marina recorded 60 knots and boats out on the water recorded higher.

It hit very suddenly. The bartender (who overlooks the marina) said it went from calm to every stick in the yard heeled over and waves coming over the breakwater in just a matter of seconds. We were tied to a slip and shielded by a large power boat, and we were heeled nearly 10º. A couple boats lost their dinghies.

We were out on the lake doing some COB drills when the teacher noticed the dark clouds approaching. We dropped the sails and quickly motored back into the marina. We were just getting the dock lines tied when it hit.

In retrospect I wonder about the wisdom of heading back into the marina. If we were even three minutes slower, instead of being at the slip when the winds went from 5 to 60 we would have been in the channel and chances are good we would have been blown against the rocks.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Minne, I've been through any number of those northern frontal passages. They are usually pretty intense but I've never felt anything like the one I mentioned above. It could not have lasted more than a minute but set the boat over probably 50 degrees. By the time I made it up on deck, it was all over. The next day, I had to stop for a while to avoid a tornado that was reported a few miles ahead!!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Some tricky ones, all with a bit of luck, well, most of the time:


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Paulo, as always, great videos, sweaty palms time, thanks for sharing. 

Paul T


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

dabnis said:


> Paulo, as always, great videos, sweaty palms time, thanks for sharing.
> 
> Paul T


Saved the best one:






Regards

Paulo


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