# Pearons 28 passes Beneteau 46



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Today, I smoked by Beneteau 46 thanks to good trimming

Here is a series of three videos showing my Pearson 28 catching up to, passing and turning around a Beneteau 46 on the Rappahannock River.

Why can't these picnic sailors trim their sails?

They especially seem to have a problem with a broad reach. The sails should be eased to nearly perpendicular to the boat on a broad reach, relying on the sail's life for power, not the wind "pushing on" the sail. Aren't they teaching this in the ASA courses?

Every season, every time I go out, I pass much newer, more expensive boats, that should be much faster than my boat. I bought my boat off Craigslist and I buy sails from eBay, usually for $100 to $200. It just goes to show you, how much you spend has little to do with performance or potential sailing enjoyment.

The winds were fluky, out of the S.E. to S.W., at around 10 knots. I was trimming from close-hauled to reaching, mostly a broad reach during the video scene.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Nicely done. Looked like very light air.


----------



## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

If I'm just sailing to be sailing (as opposed to reaching a destination) I often don't worry about "maximizing" my efficiency. Sometimes it's just enough to be moving and the sails not flapping. Other times, I may be trying to get the most out of my trim. Basically, it's just a matter of enjoying myself.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Different strokes, James.
I'm of the same mind as you, but I've accepted that others aren't.


----------



## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Sweet!


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I managed to beat boat for boat racing a C&C 41 a month or so. eat a Ben 43 a bunch too. both handicap and B4B.

It can be done if the other boat is not as trim moded as you are, both from a sail and crew wt stand point.

Marty


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Good for you.

You sailed better and didn't over trim. And you had a "real" mainsail and not one of those awful hollow- leeched battenless mains that results when you have the "convenience" of in- mast furling we see on the Bene, and over trimmed to boot. Save me from those goofy mainsails.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Nicely done. Of course, he _does_ have a B46 that he can have those picnics in. So, in the long run, he wins.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

nolatom said:


> Good for you.
> 
> You sailed better and didn't over trim. And you had a "real" mainsail and not one of those awful hollow- leeched battenless mains that results when you have the "convenience" of in- mast furling we see on the Bene, and over trimmed to boot. Save me from those goofy mainsails.


It appears to me he might be dragging one of the stern tubes of his inflatable from time to time, as well...

That's a pretty slick davit/bridle arrangement he's got there, for sure...


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Are you certain he wasn't aground? 

Around here he probably wouldn't have even had the main up. I don't know why they don't just buy powerboats - they'd probably be a lot happier.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

SloopJonB said:


> Are you certain he wasn't aground?
> 
> Around here he probably wouldn't have even had the main up. I don't know why they don't just buy powerboats - they'd probably be a lot happier.


I agree, many of these "sailors" would probably be happier with powerboats or houseboats, but "sailing" has a cooler image, evoking scenes of freedom and independence.

The following is pure speculation based on personal observation of the owners of this type of 40+ foot sailboats: this "sailor" uses his boat as a second home condo that he sleeps overnight on in about once or twice a month with his wife; he "sails" 2 or 3 times a season (the bottom is fouled with barnacles) to motorsail to a raft up with a club; he has never left the Chesapeake Bay; he bought the boat new after attending a boat show and has been "sailing" for a few years; when he visits the boat he washes it and installs new equipment/electronics and talks about sailing, after a few cocktails; and he dreams about circumnavigating after he retires (which dream will likely be rudely interrupted in reality before starting by heart attack or stroke, unless he really starts the trip, in which case he will be rescued by the Coast Guard or his wife will bail on him after the first rough passage).


[This is not intended to denigrate these people whatsoever as human beings - I have met some very nice, pleasant picnic sailors who do not seem to do any kind of serious sailing or even know how to sail, although they own sailboats.]

I want to stress this point: this is not an isolated incident; this happens all the time, usually involving newer boat show type boats - Beneteau, Catalina, Hunter. I can usually handily pass these newer production boats around my size range, the larger ones are a real prize. I guess they really don't care about the mechanics of sailing well. It surprises me that someone who spends $300K on a boat wouldn't really care enough about salilng well to trim the sails and steer. Oh well, to each his own...


----------



## Mark1977 (Sep 29, 2011)

I don\t think he knew he was in a race....I have boats pass me (sometimes) don't really pay any mind to it....if i'm sailing.....i'm already where i want to be...


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

It is fun to over take a larger, newer boat, especially to take the weather gauge maneuver into a broadside position and fantasize about giving him a 16 gun salute and then sail on booty in hand. However nobody beat anybody until they lined up at a starting line and out sailed them to the finish line, unless of course your going for the last bouy in the mooring field. Then we have a winner.
John


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

ccriders said:


> It is fun to over take a larger, newer boat, especially to take the weather gauge maneuver into a broadside position and fantasize about giving him a 16 gun salute and then sail on booty in hand. However nobody beat anybody until they lined up at a starting line and out sailed them to the finish line, unless of course your going for the last bouy in the mooring field. Then we have a winner.
> John


+1. I think you both have to know you're racing for it count for anything.

Several years ago in my C27, I "beat" a Beneteau First 35 back across the lake to the marina we were both in. I wasn't as fast as him but I could point higher and was able to turn the corner around the islands before he could. I was pretty proud of it, but assumed he wasn't _really_ racing. However, back at the marina we crossed paths and he congratulated me for those few extra degrees and the win. That made me feel even better.

James - get out there a race a "real sailor" (since you like to call guys like this "picnic sailors") that knows you're racing - him in his Bene 46 and you in your Pearson 28. Beat him fair and square and then you can come back and brag. You'll be a "real racer" - not an undercover "picnic racer". I'm just not that impressed with this one honestly.

Just sayin'.


----------



## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Look, here's the deal... Unless you both made eye contact (you know , the "game on" look), then you were doing your thing, he was doing his. Ease up on us recreational sailors. Some of us trim and some of us really trim, and some don't. 

Dave


----------



## abudoggie (Mar 12, 2014)

Looks like a great day James. Your vids inspire me to get the most from my P28. Way at the front end of the curve. But that means there is a lot more fun to be had. Our marina is starting to haul out now so our season is wrapping up. sigh...


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Mark1977 said:


> I don\t think he knew he was in a race


There was a boat alongside going in the same direction wasn't there?


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jameswilson29 said:


> I agree, many of these "sailors" would probably be happier with powerboats or houseboats, but "sailing" has a cooler image, evoking scenes of freedom and independence.
> 
> The following is pure speculation based on personal observation of the owners of this type of 40+ foot sailboats: this "sailor" uses his boat as a second home condo that he sleeps overnight on in about once or twice a month with his wife; he "sails" 2 or 3 times a season (the bottom is fouled with barnacles) to motorsail to a raft up with a club; he has never left the Chesapeake Bay; he bought the boat new after attending a boat show and has been "sailing" for a few years; when he visits the boat he washes it and installs new equipment/electronics and talks about sailing, after a few cocktails; and he dreams about circumnavigating after he retires (which dream will likely be rudely interrupted in reality before starting by heart attack or stroke, unless he really starts the trip, in which case he will be rescued by the Coast Guard or his wife will bail on him after the first rough passage).
> 
> ...


I dunno, it seems like you're making an awful lot of condescending assumptions about this guy and others like him (cooler image, second home condo, sails 2 or 3 times a season. etc.). I guess I'm just more of a live and let live type.

It seems to me that you are bothered by the fact that others aren't bothered by you. They just want to have a leisurely sail, and don't really care how fast you're going. Nothing wrong with that IMO.


----------



## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

James... Not intended to denigrate? You did. Your speculation is also way off base. People buy all sorts of boats for all sorts of reasons.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I will carry this a bit further for your edification, because this deals with the contemporary decline of real sailing and the philosophy of sailing…

Once in a while, someone will mention “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” on this forum. Some of you probably do not understand the connection, so I will explain it to you. I read that book about 30 years ago, and if I remember correctly, the author believes that we are now disconnected and detached from the essence of things, alienated in a sense, in modern life because we no longer really understand how things work and we choose to not try to.

Ironically, the funniest examples of this remain in the field of motorcycles. Today, you can see a group of posers, middle-aged suburbanites, who ride Harleys occasionally on weekends as a hobby, sometimes with a club. Once a year, they trailer their Harleys down to Daytona Beach, put on their leathers, and ride up and down the strip, posing as motorcyclists.

I find this quite amusing and curious. Someone even made a movie comedy about it, called “Wild Hogs”. The people engaging in posing as motorcyclists are probably o.k. individuals – making fun of them is not a criticism of them as people. It is just funny that they have seized upon this image and chosen to make it part of their identity.

You don’t have to be a greasy Hells Angels gang member to be a real motorcyclist. There are some people who use a motorcycle as their daily driver. Those individuals may work on their own bikes and understand how they operate. Their motorcycle use is not necessarily part of their identity, it is just something they choose to do and understand.

To the ignorant and ill-informed, the suburban poser on the Harley in his leathers may appear to be the real motorcyclist, while the kid driving the 20 year-old Honda he maintains himself is the wanna-be. That is because the ignorant and ill-informed judge based on appearances, particularly financial investment, instead of commitment to the essence of any activity. 

To draw this analogy a little further, if these two imaginary riders hit a patch of gravel on an off ramp at excessive speed, who will best handle the situation – the fat suburban poser who rides a few hours a month or the kid who spends thousands of hours actually driving and working on his bike every year?

This same phenomena has affected sailing. There are a bunch of posers whose identities are wrapped up in being sailors, which usually revolves around boat ownership and buying stuff. They love boat shows and big new boats and all the gear and equipment. Their actual involvement in sailing and understanding the activity is minimal.

So where and when, if ever, does the proverbial rubber hit the road? The rubber hits the road when these “sailors” believe that sitting and sleeping on a boat for years, going to boat shows, buying stuff, motorsailing to raft ups, and sitting on someone else’s boat during an offshore passage makes them a real sailor. Then, during a rally in the ocean somewhere, they actually have to demonstrate some sailing ability (which they never possessed) with no engine and no electronics and the EPIRB is activated.

Yes, some of you are posers, and it shows because you really don’t know how to sail…


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

So what you are saying is that there was a certain demographic that was attracted to motorcycles and sailing back in the '60s, and now, 50 years later, if you're not from that same demographic, you're not a "real" [whatever] (pick your activity).

The problem with your reasoning is that demographics change, and if the industry does not adjust, it dies. You claim that this is a sign of "contemporary decline," when in fact it is the exact opposite. It is the necessary evolution to bring new people into the activity

You have a very narrow, condescending view of what it takes to be a "real" [whatever]. I think it's silly.

I don't deny that there may be some truly incompetent people out there. But it's hopelessly arrogant to suggest that someone is a "poser" just because they haven't met these arbitrary milestones that you're suggesting.

I guess you'll just have to call me ignorant and ill-informed.


----------



## nolesailor (Oct 29, 2009)

I don't really understand why others feel the need to look down their noses at others with newer/larger/more expensive sailboats than theirs. I suspect that if this Beneteau 46 was a 1970's production boat, this post wouldn't even be here. But since it is an expensive new boat, that must make it fair game to belittle the owner's sailing ability. I have no doubt that there are plenty on this board who are competent sailors...their mere presence on this board shows they have a passion for sailing...I suspect that if those who belittle others with expensive boats could afford said expensive boats...they wouldn't feel the need for these posts...


----------



## splastiko (Mar 27, 2012)

> Every season, every time I go out, I pass much newer, more expensive boats, that should be much faster than my boat. I bought my boat off Craigslist and I buy sails from eBay, usually for $100 to $200. It just goes to show you, how much you spend has little to do with performance or potential sailing enjoyment.


This is the most ridiculous **** ever. STOP caring what other people spend their money on. Maybe he just started sailing, and gasp...he has the money to afford a bigger, newer boat. Maybe he just wanted to enjoy his day at his own pace. Crazy right?


----------



## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Wow!
Do they actually make hats large enough to fit your head?



jameswilson29 said:


> I will carry this a bit further for your edification, because this deals with the contemporary decline of real sailing and the philosophy of sailing&#8230;
> 
> Once in a while, someone will mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" on this forum. Some of you probably do not understand the connection, so I will explain it to you. I read that book about 30 years ago, and if I remember correctly, the author believes that we are now disconnected and detached from the essence of things, alienated in a sense, in modern life because we no longer really understand how things work and we choose to not try to.
> 
> ...


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

James, 

That you spent a beautiful day on the water on your boat, focusing on and taking videos of someone else on their boat, even cutting across his bow to punctuate your point, so you could then come here and tell us what a great sailor you are, and what posers they and we are? Says more about you, than them.

At the same time you want to take shots at ASA and those that choose to take sailing lessons, or anyone who dares to spend money on new boats, sails or equipment, when they could buy used. 

This is very high school... my $#%# is bigger than yours stuff. 

You should be able to enjoy your boat without feeling the need to denigrate others. A truly confident person doesn't need to do that. 

Or, as smack suggests, enter a real race, with real competitors and see how good you are.


----------



## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

James.. It's a big tent with lots of room. People of all different skill sets, all different goals and all different attitudes are out there. They are all "real" sailors. Skill levels vary in all classes of boat. In my experience (and I've been sailing since I was in diapers - and at 65, I'm almost in diapers again!!) most try to be safe and competent. A few, God bless them, just seem to have a "can't sail" gene. They just have no feel for boats (not just one type of boat, but ANY boat) but they are no more - or less - real than you or I. Zen really isn't only for the cool people. Enjoy your boat, you sound like you love it. And as you pass my (very expensive - Man, it took a lot of commitment to afford this boat) 40' Catalina, smile at me and know that I too, love what I am doing. I love it when I see a well-sailed Pearson 28.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> I will carry this a bit further for your edification, because this deals with the contemporary decline of real sailing and the philosophy of sailing&#8230;
> 
> Once in a while, someone will mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" on this forum. Some of you probably do not understand the connection, so I will explain it to you. I read that book about 30 years ago, and if I remember correctly, the author believes that we are now disconnected and detached from the essence of things, alienated in a sense, in modern life because we no longer really understand how things work and we choose to not try to.
> 
> ...


DAAAAAAYUM!

I only quote this because well its true

go over to motorcycle forums and see what the guys riding bmw gs 1200 fully loaded to go to africa ACTUALLY do with their bikes?

they are called starbucks riders...

however that doesnt mean they arent entitle to do that...it is a pseudo free country after all isnt it?

while the truth is very inherent in your article james when it comes down to it are you really wanting to call out so many people?

are you reallistically expecting people to be the same as you and as applied and adept at sailing as you?

think about it

if everyone sailed well, always, everywhere why not just become a robot?

*perfection has the ugly side effect of making things BORING*

this is what my spanish friend told me when reffering to the SWISS he said he never got paid better as a musician(he was a flamenco guitar player) than when in switzerland however as an artist he died every time he went on stage

why? because nobody clapped nobody sang along nobody yelled nobody said anything and they all waited till he finished to give a nod of approval and that was as exciting as that GOT!

back to sailing

who would teach? who would learn? how do you have fun? how do you go woops missed that buoy let me tack around and have a laugh?

what you are trying to impose here is sailing utopia...that can only be seen in very few places around the world

im going to go out on a limb here and call those places out

THEY DONT EXIST

however I hear the *swedes *are up there when it comes to being as a country top notch sailors from 1 -100 years old.

in any case you have much truth in your post James however someone said it best already

LIVE AND LET LIVE

you arent better nor am I or anyone else simply because you sail faster than a boat twice your size

you are simply faster

whatever the conditions where like a slow captain, or boat or sails badly trimmed who gives?

ps. Ill be honest the title sounded just like the topics I would hear at a very rowdy sailing club I used to be a member of where all that happened was men measuring their dicks non stop

it got old very old

because sailing is happinness only if you check your ego once you step off the dock

just sayin


----------



## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Jim does have a point - many boat owners -sail and power- own them as status symbols. The dock queens rarely leave their slip, they motor when they could sail for various reasons, including skill level. 
I hate getting behind an expensive car driving 20 mph below the speed limit. If you are going to own it, learn how to drive it, sail it etc. or I will pass you!
Joel


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

James,
You may have picked up that I'm a retired bike shop owner (the real kind, with pedals).One day I realized my crew of 20 year olds had never been on the water. Now this is a beautiful place with open access to the water at every turn, but these guys had never seen their home town from the water.
So, I negotiated with a friend/customer to take my crew out for an evening sail. Now my friend is a dedicated giver of his life to developing young people and at that time was skippering an Explorer Scout sailing program. When he sailed with his Scouts in either an old Columbia or (preferably) a J-24, it was rail down and overhaul any and everything in sight. They regularly pasted everyone in the Wednesday night races. Actually he was careful to teach them that rail down is not the fastest way to sail.
But for this excursion for my crew, he chose his Catalina 30. My wife and I fixed up a meal - sushi, beer, sorbet and cookies - and off we went for a sight seeing tour. The sushi was another first for them, the beer, not so much.
To the non-poser sailing community we probably looked just awful. Four guys on the rail, jib luffing at times, mainsail not really pulling, and seemingly following the zigs and zags of the shoreline instead of making a beeline for the weather mark.
So, why am I telling you this? Poser is a derrogative term. They are fellow sailors and don't deserve to be denigrated. How do you know the dynamics of that cockpit without talking to them? How can you even speculate about the personality and life style of those sailors? Why didn't you pull up within hailing distance and ask them if they would like a race? If they say yes then game on. 
Another thing, our boats (P28s) really start sailing in 10kts. How about a 40 footer? 
There are a lot of people in this world, but there is one thing you can say about the guy your putting down - he's not breaking into your house and stealing your stuff. No, he's a fellow sailor living his philosophy of sailing.
Again, I've enjoyed your videos and love seeing our old 28s out sailing smartly, but don't assume what the other guy is or is doing.
John


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I agree too!

different strokes they say


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> I will carry this a bit further for your edification, because this deals with the contemporary decline of real sailing and the philosophy of sailing&#8230;
> 
> Once in a while, someone will mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" on this forum. Some of you probably do not understand the connection, so I will explain it to you. I read that book about 30 years ago, and if I remember correctly, the author believes that we are now disconnected and detached from the essence of things, alienated in a sense, in modern life because we no longer really understand how things work and we choose to not try to.
> 
> ...


My very first couple of days on Sailnet, I found the best sailing thread ever (to this day) that generally deals with what you're talking about. It was actually my first post - which led to a huge forum fight, which led to my avatar. It was also started by an attorney (coincidence?).

It's here:

Fight Club____for Sailors

I think you might have succeeded in starting another FightClub thread. But so far, yours isn't nearly as fun - or inspiring. It's just kind of bitter and Mean Girl-ish.


----------



## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

It seems that periodically, there is always a "You're not a real sailor" thread. Always something that offends the delicate sensibilities of "real" sailors. Always transgressions from the "true path" to be pointed out. But here's the thing ... I sail my boat the way I want to. I sail for my enjoyment, not someone else's approval.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

ccriders said:


> James,
> (snip)
> To the non-poser sailing community we probably looked just awful. Four guys on the rail, jib luffing at times, mainsail not really pulling, and seemingly following the zigs and zags of the shoreline instead of making a beeline for the weather mark. (Snip)


Do you know what the difference is, between you and the "posuer"?

You guys were actually trying. For that, people will offer you respect.

I know that James rubs people the wrong way with his choice of words sometimes, but I agree with some of his points. You guys also got overly caught up in the "class warfare" issue of the new boat.
------------------------------------------------------

Here's perhaps another way to phrase what James is trying to communicate-

Why embark on a hobby if you're going to do a half-assed, crappy job of it, and advertise your lack of commitment to your peers while you're out doing it?

The only way to really know if a motorcyclist or powerboater is a poor operator, is when they crash. If the biker or powerboater arrives alive at their destination, it's very difficult to tell if they are poor or skilled.Sailors advertise their every mistake from potentially MILES away, with flogging sails, no sails in a productive breeze, filthy hulls, etc. Everyone can see you.

Ships and sailing are unique to other hobbies, in that "seamanship" is an important quality, and a badge of honor in our community. Keeping your boat clean, safe, and operating it in a smart, efficient manner, are what committed sailors look for in their peers. There's no comparable word or mentality to "seamanship" in motorcycling or car racing, and it barely exists in recreational powerboating, and not at all in the PWC community.

A friend of mine recently said that some sailboat owners seek to transplant a dirt-based life over to a floating boat. Some actually seek to embrace a seaman's life.

Please note that this has NOTHING to do with wealth. I recognize that many of us are on thin budgets these days. I don't give a damn if you have any shiny gadgets or new, membrane sails. It costs next to nothing to CLEAN your boat, and it costs nothing to sail her well. You do your vessel a disservice by doing any less. A sailing vessel (indeed, most marine craft) is your traveling companion, your friend. Your vessel protects you...if you maintain it properly. Sailing vessels and mariners have existed for hundreds years before cars and motorcycles were even a concept, so our culture is richer, and perhaps more rigid and unforgiving at times.

A committed sailor can tell the difference between a caring sailor fighting budgetary limitations and a "sailboat owner" who just doesn't care about his boat, and it doesn't matter if that boat is a Coronado 25 or a Dufour 38e. I've seen neglected "modern" boats. They are an even greater shame than neglected 4ktsb's.

I cheerfully accept that there are sailors out there who don't drink as deeply as some do, from the well of the sailing community.

You have the freedom to sail your vessel in any way that you see fit, but I don't have to respect you just because you're floating on the water, and doing a lousy job of it.


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

jsaronson said:


> Jim does have a point - many boat owners -sail and power- own them as status symbols. The dock queens rarely leave their slip, they motor when they could sail for various reasons, including skill level.
> I hate getting behind an expensive car driving 20 mph below the speed limit. If you are going to own it, learn how to drive it, sail it etc. or I will pass you!
> Joel


Pass away.

People buy boats (and cars) for lots of reasons. The thing is that there is not just one "acceptable" reason.

Enjoy what you do for your reasons for doing it and others will do the same.

Pretty simple.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> It seems that periodically, there is always a "You're not a real sailor" thread. Always something that offends the delicate sensibilities of "real" sailors. Always transgressions from the "true path" to be pointed out. But here's the thing ... I sail my boat the way I want to. I sail for my enjoyment, not someone else's approval.


Yeah, you and I definitely went a few rounds in the FightClub Ring back in the day, PB. In retrospect, I think the distinction is this:

There is sailing and there is cruising. They are very, very different.

I didn't know anything about cruising when I first came on the forum. I just knew about sailing. And Surf really nailed the essence of adventure behind sailing. That's for sure. That's why I loved that thread.

But, though I've now done thousands of miles of "real sailing" - off-shore racing where you have to have everything dialed in and the rail is in the water quite often...I've also really learned to enjoy "real cruising" - the 150-mile to 300-mile lazy deliveries of those same boats back to their marinas with the AP on, the fishing rods out, the tunes blaring, and the engine running when the wind is light. If a breathless little dude in a little boat passes us in this mode...I could care less. We're cruising. He might somehow feel better about himself, and I suppose there's some value in that somewhere. But I've already won my pickledish, so I'm not interested in helping him with his flagging self-esteem.

So, though both sailors and cruisers can have sails up, their mindsets can be worlds apart. And, as you've always held, who cares? Both are great.

The goofiness comes when a cruiser puts down the entirety sailors/racers. Or when a sailor/racer puts down and entirety of cruisers.

The issue is...James is obviously a "poser" when it comes to "real cruising". He should try it before he bashes it. Because right now, he's looking a little silly with his $1,000 Helly Hansens and iPhone Cam.

(PS - I still very much liked your BFS James...but this one definitely ain't getting the stamp.)


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> That is because the ignorant and ill-informed judge based on appearances....


You might want to consider how this applies to your own comments. 

OTOH


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

If it has a mast in it, I'm happier to see that it's a sailboat rather than a powerboat. And yes, I admit I tend to "sail the other guy's boat", not an attractive trait:

"See those scallops on the headstay? He hasn't finished raising his jib"..

"Overtrimmed on a broad reach! Why does *everyone* do that? When in doubt, let it out!"

"What, a *fender* hanging over the side, underway??"


I am trying to improve. I fail often though. ;-)


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

My guess is that he was too busy enjoying those who were sailing with him to even notice you being the gnat you were trying to be. He was chatting and gave you no more notice than to make sure he did not have to yield right of way. He likely had a boat full of people who enjoy his company enough to spend time with him, and he was more interested in spending time with them than to trim the sails for max performance as that would take time away from his guests. You on the other hand were alone on your boat again. To me you were acting like one of the jet skis we all hate, only in slow motion buzzing around him. 

If you really want to prove that you are a fast sailor, join some organized races. See if you pass bigger faster boats there. Don't be so proud of passing some person who was lazily enjoying the day paying you no mind. 

Perhaps there is a post on the Beneteau owners forum about some jerk who insisted on annoying them by intentionally sailing across there bow when they are just enjoying the lovely afternoon with friends.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Why embark on a hobby if you're going to do a half-assed, crappy job of it, and advertise your lack of commitment to your peers while you're out doing it?
> 
> committed sailor can tell the difference between a caring sailor fighting budgetary limitations and a "sailboat owner" who just doesn't care about his boat, and it doesn't matter if that boat is a Coronado 25 or a Dufour 38e. I've seen neglected "modern" boats. They are an even greater shame than neglected 4ktsb's.


Here's the problem I have with James' general attitude...



jameswilson29 said:


> I will carry this a bit further for your edification, because this deals with the contemporary decline of real sailing and the philosophy of sailing&#8230;


...on the back of this particular video series: The dude in the Bene wants nothing to do with James - who's being aggressive. The Bene skipper is just trying to keep clear of a poorly sailed boat.

Watch the original video above very closely. When the video starts, James is on a collision course with the guy. At about 10 seconds in, the Bene turns to port about 20 degrees - a parallel course - to open up some space between the boats. James follows and closes the angle again. The Bene turns to port a bit more at about 30 seconds, James follows. Finally the Bene continues turning to port until about 1 minute where James finally stops pushing and stays on course. Of course, at this point, the Bene has been pushed off its original course by maybe 45-50 degrees...and has not had a chance to trim sails for this new angle. So, of course he's going to get passed by James who stays on the hotter angle. In other words, the Bene is just letting James go by.

Then...in video 3 while James is congratulating himself and trying to film it all, the Bene comes back up to his preferred (and trimmed for) wind angle and catches and blows right by a scrambling, very poorly trimmed James who is pretty much dead in the water.






This is "good sailing"?

The way I see it is this:

1. Your general notion of a poorly sailed boat is not the case in this video. The Bene's sails are not flogging, etc. (though, yes, the dinghy could be secured a bit better). So, though I like your philosophical ideal - it doesn't really apply here.

2. In fact, according to the video,_ the Bene skipper_ was the one practicing better seamanship. Who had the right of way here (they are both on starboard tack and the Bene is to leeward)? Yet who had to give way because one boat kept moving onto a collision course?

If you have an aggressive boat pushing in on you and creating a dangerous situation (like motorboats like to) - give them room. Avoid contact.

In conclusion, I think James just posted a great example of "motorboat mentality" and poor seamanship. This behavior would have been fine in a race (to a degree)...but to make another cruising boat deviate from its course because you have something to prove for Youtube?

And then to brag about your superior, Zen-like "abilities" in passing the dude who is actually practicing better seamanship - and calling _him_ a chap-clad poser? And posting this on your YouTube page:



> A 1977 Pearson 28 catches up to, and passes, a much newer, larger and more expensive Beneteau 46, *which appears to be poorly trimmed for the wind direction.*


Gee I wonder why?

Please.

I certainly don't mind talking about the philosophy of sailing and seamanship, but let's at least use examples of _good seamanship_ when doing so. There are enough motorboaters out there already for "sailors" to start acting like them too.



jameswilson29 said:


> Yes, some of you are posers, and it shows because you really don't know how to sail&#8230;


Says the 28' kettle...


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

James - my local village is a weekend destination for the yuppie bikers. You're right about them being posers - their sole attempt to be "real" is to put shotgun pipes on their Harleys.

Their update of the old biker credo is "Live to Ride - Ride to Brunch".

Of course I'd rather have them around than moronic & violent outlaw bikers (even if they are "real").


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> James - my local village is a weekend destination for the yuppie bikers. You're right about them being posers - their sole attempt to be "real" is to put shotgun pipes on their Harleys.
> 
> Their update of the old biker credo is "Live to Ride - Ride to Brunch".
> 
> Of course I'd rather have them around than moronic & violent outlaw bikers (even if they are "real").


Yea, but I am sure the restaurants and shops enjoy the economic boost!


----------



## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

> Why embark on a hobby if you're going to do a half-assed, crappy job of it, and advertise your lack of commitment to your peers while you're out doing it?


I can sail my boat to it's potential at any time I want. Often though, I'm content to just "half-ass, crappily" sail it. I do not raise my sails to compete with anyone, or anyone's perceptions, I raise my sails to enjoy myself.

If you want competition, enter a race, 'cause I'm just out there to enjoy myself.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> Why can't these picnic sailors trim their sails?


Oftentimes these days, the answer to that might be as simple as _"Because they can't SEE the freakin' things, to begin with?"_



That massive bimini certainly isn't gonna be very conducive to maintaining good trim... I long ago lost count of the number of times I've been sailing from beneath such huge expanses of Sunbrella, and have finally noticed a drop off in performance, and wondered what the hell's wrong? Then, after climbing over the coaming in order to stick my head out and get a view of what's going on in The Outside World, the answer is readily apparent, after a quick glance at the main for the first time in the last hour or two...

I can't stand trying to sail from underneath such contraptions, first thing I usually do when I get aboard such boats is to dismantle them, if possible. Sure, I understand how they are a virtual 'necessity' in the tropics, and so on, and they sure can be nice to have in certain conditions... But, I'm guessing such monster dodger/bimini configurations are a prime contributor to much of the poor sail trim seen on so many cruising boats out there today...

)


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

PBzeer said:


> I can sail my boat to it's potential at any time I want. Often though, I'm content to just "half-ass, crappily" sail it. I do not raise my sails to compete with anyone, or anyone's perceptions, I raise my sails to enjoy myself.
> 
> *If you want competition, enter a race, 'cause I'm just out there to enjoy myself.*


This is not a "racer vs. cruiser" debate. It's not about racing, it's about doing something poorly vs. doing it well.

There is beauty and grace in a properly trimmed sail, or a well executed tack, whether you're racing or not.

You're free to operate your vessel in any manner that you see fit, but you do seem to take offense to those who might not respect you for doing it poorly. This is the second time that you've said you don't care about others' perception of how you sail. I heard you the first time. Keep going, and you "doth protest too much".


----------



## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

I have never given so many "Likes" in one thread.  It has fun to read through. I started a thread or two in my lifetime like this one. I got about the same responses and beat downs. Humbly I admit I learned from them. 

Dave


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> go over to motorcycle forums and see what the guys riding bmw gs 1200 fully loaded to go to africa ACTUALLY do with their bikes?
> 
> they are called starbucks riders...


On that note, come on by for a visit and say hi. This forum is based out of Atlanta. There are quite a few folks who do bike nights southwest of Atl in the Newnan area.

Bloke's Sportbike Forum - Powered by vBulletin


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

nolatom said:


> If it has a mast in it, I'm happier to see that it's a sailboat rather than a powerboat. And yes, I admit I tend to "sail the other guy's boat", not an attractive trait:
> 
> *"See those scallops on the headstay? He hasn't finished raising his jib"..*
> 
> ...


if youre racing in light wind on certain boats guess what? scallops indicate you have correctly trimmed your halyard! a technique used in certain racing boats...like say a j24

again the more you are willing to learn even as you grow too old or you think you know it all there is always somebody out there that will both know more and less than you

never stop learning!!!


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ianjoub said:


> On that note, come on by for a visit and say hi. This forum is based out of Atlanta. There are quite a few folks who do bike nights southwest of Atl in the Newnan area.
> 
> Bloke's Sportbike Forum - Powered by vBulletin


will do man!

Im eager to get my old honda xr600 back and get some rides in...

peace


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

James, you are certainly getting a lot of enjoyment out of your GoPro. I don’t think there isn’t a skipper amongst us that doesn’t get some sort of secret satisfaction for making “trees” on something that is either bigger or shinier. I, myself enjoy making the occasional skipper feel bad that he overpaid for his “racing machine”. That said, sailing is a great continuum where we all reside – some with better seamanship skills, others with less. My pet peeve isn’t that some can’t trim… It’s those same skippers who can’t figure out the rules of the road. The good news is you can spot them a mile or two off and be ready for the crossing situation. We get a lot of boaters who only go out on Opening Day or Fleet Week which is reason enough to stay in the marina on those days.


----------



## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

I guess that now in addition to the national accreditation organizations of ASA and US Sailing, we now are fortunate to have James to tell us who the "real" sailors are. Honestly, I just don't understand the need he has to convince himself that he's superior to others on the water.

How can anyone know what another's situation truly is. Maybe the other guy is not skilled yet, but is keen to learn and become better. Maybe he's doing the best he can with his physical limitations. I have an unusual boat. Some folks may not think much of it. But I chose it for an important reason. My wife had a medical conditions a few years back that made sailing for her a real challenge. Because our Nonsuch sails flat and was easy to single hand if she wasn't feeling well, it was a way for the two of us to get out on the water as a couple.

I admit that I do pseudo race other boats. But my intent is to get me to focus on improving my sail and boat handling, not to belittle the other guy.

I do hope and expect that the other guy knows the rules of the road and knows how to set an anchor so he doesn't drag into me. Other than that, I could care less. 

Currently, I may be much less skilled than many of the sailors here on Sailnet. But I'm learning and getting better--both at sailing and in maintaining a boat. I'm working towards my sailing goals to venture further afield. And I'm having fun and spending time with my wife on the water. That's all I care about.


----------



## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

If they are not being a danger to you, why do you even care what they were doing with their boat?


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> There is sailing and there is cruising. They are very, very different.


Not necessarily...



smackdaddy said:


> But, though I've now done thousands of miles of "real sailing" - off-shore racing where you have to have everything dialed in and the rail is in the water quite often...I've also really learned to enjoy "real cruising" - the 150-mile to 300-mile lazy deliveries of those same boats back to their marinas with the AP on, the fishing rods out, the tunes blaring, and the engine running when the wind is light. If a breathless little dude in a little boat passes us in this mode...I could care less. We're cruising. He might somehow feel better about himself, and I suppose there's some value in that somewhere. But I've already won my pickledish, so I'm not interested in helping him with his flagging self-esteem.


I don't know any skilled or accomplished sailors who can so easily flip some switch between competitive and leisure sailing, to the point where they simply no longer much care about sailing the boat well after the race is over. I suspect those who might be capable of doing so, probably aren't very successful on the race course to begin with  I've done offshore races to Bermuda and elsewhere, and then been aboard for the trip back home, as well. And while the boat understandably wasn't being pressed as hard on the way back, and spinnakers weren't being flown in marginal situations and so on, I can assure you that paying attention to something as elemental as the trim of the working sails was still a high priority...

I don't see this discrepancy as the difference between racing and cruising, but rather more the result of whether any particular individual tends to view sailing as primarily an _ACTIVITY_, or rather as a _LIFESTYLE_... Those of us fortunate enough to have been introduced to sailing at a young age, when all we did was race or knock about in small daysailers, might have decades of time spent on boats where pretty much the only purpose and enjoyment was in _SAILING_ them, and in trying to do that well... I'm not certain, but I'd be willing to bet the first time I ever heard my father say the old adage we've all heard at one time or another - _Anything truly worth doing, is worth doing WELL_ - he might have been referring to sailing...

Today, however, we have a significant percentage of those who came into sailing much later in life, most typically after having been drawn to sailing or cruising as an appealing Lifestyle - which may, or may not, have much to do with sailing... Nothing inherently wrong with that, of course, but I think it does inform much of the varying levels of skill we see out on the water. In today's world, it's become entirely possible to partake in the Cruising Lifestyle promoted by the 'Industry' and glossy magazines, without having much in the way of sailing skills or knowledge, or even much interest in the activity itself...

One of the reasons why Maine will always be one of my favorite cruising destinations, is because I know of few other places where one so consistently sees beautiful boats being sailed, and sailed _WELL_... Most folks up there seem to appreciate that sailing is as much of an _ART_, as anything else... Check out the cover of the 2015 CRUISING WORLD calendar, and the wonderful shot of the Alden Challenger CHRISTMAS, being sailed by an occasional poster here, Tom Maine... He's not racing, but rather just out sailing around on a perfect summer day in Maine... But the boat is in her element, doing exactly what her designer and builder intended, and when one sees a boat being sailed so beautifully, in perfect balance with the elements of wind and water, well... it's pretty obvious to me, that Tom understands and appreciates far better than most, what the essence of sailing - at least as an _Activity_ - is all about...


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Where did you get the idea that our sails weren't trimmed?

And TomMaine...Oh hell yeah!!


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Where did you get the idea that our sails weren't trimmed?


Sorry, didn't mean to imply that, exactly... I was thinking more of the overall context of this thread, and more specifically of the poster who said sometimes he's content to sail his boat in a "half-assed, crappy" fashion... NTTAWWT, of course...



In a related note, saw a humorous observation from the log of a cat doing the Caribbean 1500... They're motoring on one engine directly upwind towards Tortola...



> The other boats around us, Lucky Strike, Abigail and Club Carp appear to be tacking. We suspect they are low on fuel.


Of course, why else might anyone actually be _SAILING_ to weather, unless they were short of fuel?

)


----------



## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> DAAAAAAYUM!
> 
> I only quote this because well its true
> 
> ...


This is very true. Very much so. Christian has here reached the final truth.

We are awaiting James. Even in the sleep we will beat him, independent of boat.

/J


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I think you got this whole scenerio wrong.

The guy was having sex with his girl in the "cockpit" and didn't give a shoots ass how his sails were trimmed. He probably never even noticed you.


----------



## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

> and more specifically of the poster who said sometimes he's content to sail his boat in a "half-assed, crappy" fashion


Actually, I was referring to anything less than maximum trim, which seems to be the standard everyone is to perform to, or only be "half-assed crappy" sailors.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Jaramaz said:


> We are awaiting James. Even in the sleep we will beat him, independent of boat.
> 
> /J


Yawn...some of you get it, some of you don't, and probably never will (even with a 13K post count - in fact, especially with a 13K post count).

But, you have inspired me to video the sorry state of contemporary sailing, with the opening of the 2015 season (because most of you won't be out there on the water when I pass you this Fall, Winter and early Spring), so expect to see more:

Picnic sailors motoring on perfect sailing days 

Picnic sailors with poorly trimmed sails 

Picnic sailors being used as turning marks by me! 

Picnic sailors dragging anchor, etc., etc...

For those of you who still don't get it - smile, you are on candid camera!!!:laugher:laugher:laugher


----------



## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

It is kinda funny that this bothers you so much, maybe a second hobby is in order.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

It does not bother me...I find it amusing and comical... (The original post was mocking in tone...see my "Senior Smart Aleck" status - I am required to do this, like it or not.)

Filming picnic sailors in their antics may just become a new hobby for me, just for entertainment. Should I add a laugh track to the videos?


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Pegu club said:


> It is kinda funny that this bothers you so much, maybe a second hobby is in order.


I hear that E!'s "Live From the Red Carpet" is looking for someone new to make fun of the Oscar attendees...

"Can we tawlk???" :laugher :laugher


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

PBzeer said:


> Actually, I was referring to *anything less than maximum trim,* which seems to be the standard everyone is to perform to, or only be "half-assed crappy" sailors.


This is an interesting comment.

PB- Although I made comments about boats being sailed poorly, I think we all draw our line at different places in the sand, and the spectrum is quite wide.

My personal line in the sand (which is certainly arbitrary), is badly flogging sails, reefed mains on calm, sunny days, very loose halyard with large scallops, motoring downwind instead of getting off your ass and flying a spinnaker or poling out a large jib. Well, generally not sailing in a productive breeze.

The thing about criticizing motoring sailors, is you never know if they have some sort of equipment problem preventing them from sailing, but you have to admit that there are a lot of lazy sailors that rely on the iron genny an awful lot.

-If a guy's leech line is fluttering a bit, I don't sneer. 
-Slightly under or over trimmed? At least the guy is attempting to use the wind.
-Slight scallops along the luff? Well, dacron stretches a bit after you've cleated the halyard.

When I see people that I consider to be poor or lazy sailors, my thought process isn't necessarily to denigrate them. It's more a sense of frustration-

"Doesn't that guy know what fun he's missing right now?"
"Do they not know how to pole out a jib, or do they simply not care?"
"Would they like someone to teach them, or would they regard it as an intrusion?"
"That boat is pounding/rolling terribly under the engine. Sailing would greatly increase their comfort."

Here's an example-

My girlfriend and I were sailing home, 40+ miles from Solomon's Island to the Annapolis area during the summer. It's frigging 98F degrees and humid, with a breeze of around 8 knots. We are wearing cloths soaked with ice water around our necks. I said "If you want to get out of this heat in a reasonable amount of time, we need to fly the 'chute".

We passed two other cruisers, not motoring, one sailing under jib alone! As we passed, they looked positively miserable, barely motivated to wave at us as we passed. We arrived home at least 2 hours ahead of them.

Why, Why, WHY would anyone torture themselves like that??
It's also a matter of practicality. Sailing well, reduces the abuse that you and your equipment are subjected to.

I have to admit, I'm curious to see what James dredges up when he goes sailing. I have a camera and I might grab some video of the more ridiculous things I see out there, as well.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I have to admit, I'm curious to see what James dredges up when he goes sailing. I have a camera and I might grab some video of the more ridiculous things I see out there, as well.


Will the administrators please set up a separate subforum, "Sailors Who Can't Sail: Comic Videos of Picnic Sailors in Over Their Heads!"? Subtitle: "Please Stay in Your Slip Where You Belong!"


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Come on now, the title is a bit harsh.

We're all "picnic sailors" at some point. I agree that some antics are worth video recording, but some folks are out there learning, and they're going to make mistakes.

Better hope no one has their camera handy when your anchor drags!


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

GeorgeB said:


> We get a lot of boaters who only go out on Opening Day or Fleet Week which is reason enough to stay in the marina on those days.


Sounds like New Year's Eve: stay home, it is amateur night.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

JonEisberg said:


> Not necessarily...
> 
> I don't know any skilled or accomplished sailors who can so easily flip some switch between competitive and leisure sailing, to the point where they simply no longer much care about sailing the boat well after the race is over. [/IMG]


Could you not imagine someone running some conservative sail trim while on autopilot so they could go make themselves a sandwich and a beer?


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Jaramaz said:


> This is very true. Very much so. Christian has here reached the final truth.
> 
> We are awaiting James. Even in the sleep we will beat him, independent of boat.
> 
> /J


jajaja!


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> Yawn...some of you get it, some of you don't, and probably never will (even with a 13K post count - in fact, especially with a 13K post count).
> 
> But, you have inspired me to video the sorry state of contemporary sailing, with the opening of the 2015 season (because most of you won't be out there on the water when I pass you this Fall, Winter and early Spring), so expect to see more:
> 
> ...


well damn you hooked me

I get it now


----------



## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

bye.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ianjoub said:


> Could you not imagine someone running some conservative sail trim while on autopilot so they could go make themselves a sandwich and a beer?


the old salt in me simply heaves to, especially to make a samich jajaja even tea jajajaja


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ianjoub said:


> Could you not imagine someone running some conservative sail trim while on autopilot so they could go make themselves a sandwich and a beer?


Sure I can, I've no doubt done something similar myself...

However, I doubt such an example is what is in play in most of the examples of boats I see being sailed poorly, or not at all... and, if and when it is, some folks are taking an awfully long time to make their sandwiches 

Not to mention, on the point of sail depicted in this thread, the more "conservative" approach that would have been kinder to an autopilot, would have been to have _EASED_ the main, rather than over-trimming it...

)

Hmmm, speaking of taking a long time to make a sandwich:



> One week after his Nov. 8 rescue, the 56-foot Gypsy Dane went aground on a Hatteras Island beach while the 64-year-old sailor was reportedly below, making a sandwich, said David Carter, Cape Hatteras National Seashore park ranger.
> 
> "He said before he went down below, there was no land in sight," Carter said.
> 
> A week after rescue, sailboat runs aground at Hatteras | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com


----------



## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

jameswilson29 said:


> Yawn...some of you get it, some of you don't, and probably never will (even with a 13K post count - in fact, especially with a 13K post count).
> 
> But, you have inspired me to video the sorry state of contemporary sailing, with the opening of the 2015 season (because most of you won't be out there on the water when I pass you this Fall, Winter and early Spring), so expect to see more:
> 
> ...


That's one approach...getting your jollies by making fun of others. (Put me firmly in the "don't get it and never will" crowd)

OR

You could refocus your crusade and be a positive force for the sport of sailing. Offer to take out young folks and introduce them to sailing. Teach them a bit and get them hooked. Show them that sailing need not be expensive. Offer a ride to a former sailer who had to give up the sport because of increasing infirmities. (Even YOU might learn something.). Find a wounded warrior sailing program and volunteer your your time and skills.

Any and all of these seem more worthwhile than the middle school sport of picking on others.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Jiminri said:


> That's one approach...getting your jollies by making fun of others. (Put me firmly in the "don't get it and never will" crowd)
> 
> OR
> 
> ...


BINGO

teaching what you enjoy doing is one of lifes great things

having someone join the sport because you taught them something is great for the soul.

while I have a tendency to be gullible I also always try to make something good out of nothing or a bad situation etc...

in this case falling for a bait thread.

making fun just to make fun and or belittle is well bad manners as my gradfather used to say

anywhoo

hopefully soon Il be teaching sailing again here in Georgia... miss it


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Yawn...some of you get it, some of you don't, and probably never will (even with a 13K post count - in fact, especially with a 13K post count).


I definitely don't get it when an arrogant boat driver who doesn't even understand the sailing rules of the road thinks he's done something awesome for the sailing world by illustrating his prowess in cutting off a real sailor in the stand-on vessel...then going on to put down everyone else that doesn't live up to some standard he's obviously failing miserably at himself. Maybe that's just me...and my 13K posts.



jameswilson29 said:


> But, you have inspired me to video the sorry state of contemporary sailing....


You already did. Yours.

You should stick with picnics.


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Bottom line: there was no race and OP had no idea about the ability of the crew on the "vanquished poser". 
Sure wish I could fix everything that is wrong in this world, but surely wouldn't start with sail shape on 43 foot Beneteaus.
John


----------



## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

I sailed a new boat to me this past season. First time sails were up, I found the leech line cleats on the jib and the main were broken. I chose to sail the season with them broken. Was really embarrassing to have the leech of both sails flapping quite often. Both sails are now at the sail loft getting repaired. Next year will be different...plus a new main sail (>$200)...that will be fun.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Why, Why, WHY would anyone torture themselves like that??
> It's also a matter of practicality. *Sailing well, reduces the abuse that you and your equipment are subjected to.*


That's an excellent point, and one that is so often overlooked... Particularly when venturing offshore, or when sailing in bigger breezes and waves... Hopefully, Stanley Paris on KIWI SPIRIT will take that recommendation a bit more to heart, on his second go-around... )

It's been touched upon in recent other threads discussions re swept-back spreaders, and sailing wing and wing... To cite one example again, I don't know why or how so many folks go off cruising without a downwind pole, or so rarely employ them...

Amazing how often I see folks sailing or motorsailing deep downwind under a headsail alone, rolling their guts out, as the sail constantly spills its air or becomes backwinded, only to re-fill again with that appalling _BANG_ that causes the entire boat to shudder... Few things can be more punishing to a rig, than allowing that sort of abuse to continue for a prolonged period of time...

Just one example of the value of making the simple effort to sail the boat well, as opposed to poorly, beyond the concern over being made the subject of some 'stalker's' YouTube video or pic...

)


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Jiminri said:


> That's one approach...getting your jollies by making fun of others. (Put me firmly in the "don't get it and never will" crowd)
> 
> OR
> 
> ...


It is awful hard to help others when you are way up there on that high horse.



smackdaddy said:


> I definitely don't get it when an arrogant boat driver who doesn't even understand the sailing rules of the road thinks he's done something awesome for the sailing world by illustrating his prowess in cutting off a real sailor in the stand-on vessel...then goes on to put down everyone else that doesn't live up to some standard he's obviously failing miserably at himself. Maybe that's just me.
> 
> You already did. Yours.
> 
> You should stick with picnics.


Yea and people wonder why "blow boaters" have such a reputation for being snobs.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

christian.hess said:


> the old salt in me simply heaves to, especially to make a samich jajaja even tea jajajaja


There's nothing sloppy or un-seamanlike about heaving to.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

JonEisberg said:


> It's been touched upon in recent other threads discussions re swept-back spreaders, and sailing wing and wing... To cite one example again, I don't know why or how so many folks go off cruising without a downwind pole, or so rarely employ them...
> 
> Amazing how often I see folks sailing or motorsailing deep downwind under a headsail alone, rolling their guts out, as the sail constantly spills its air or becomes backwinded, only to re-fill again with that appalling _BANG_ that causes the entire boat to shudder... Few things can be more punishing to a rig, than allowing that sort of abuse to continue for a prolonged period of time...


Since I am just learning to sail (don't really know how yet), why wouldn't one just not sail DDW? I am sure there are instances where that would be impossible, but it seems that most of the time, one could sail just a few degrees off of DDW.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Jiminri said:


> You could refocus your crusade and be a positive force for the sport of sailing...


Remind me again - why would I want to promote sailing?

I am enjoying the decline of sailing - it seems to be in my best interests. Slips are abundant and cheaper. Boats are much more affordable (my boat is so inexpensive to begin with, the price drop does not bother me). There is an abundant supply of used parts on eBay and Craigslist. The waterways are less crowded. There is more room in my favorite anchorages. It is less risky with fewer, new, incompetent boaters out there (the "lifestyle" sailors tend to stay safely in their marina slips where they belong).

So why do I care if the numbers decline?

Sailing will not disappear. Some people will continue to sail, whether it is popular or not. The "rah rah" novices who need other participants or who are currently infatuated with sailing as a new favorite activity before they move on and pick up some other new favorite activity, will drop out in any event. So what?

The three groups upset about this are the racers, marine businesses, and their unwitting agents (the aforementioned "rah rah" novices) who have been brainwashed into being concerned about the decline.

My father taught me how to sail; I am teaching my son to sail. My family will continue to sail. I anticipate that sailing will become more and more enjoyable as fewer participate. In fact, it may even acquire a cool, esoteric vibe&#8230;


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

ianjoub said:


> Since I am just learning to sail (don't really know how yet), why wouldn't one just not sail DDW? I am sure there are instances where that would be impossible, but it seems that most of the time, one could sail just a few degrees off of DDW.


Sailing dead down wind is actually quite a bit of work. To do it correctly you need to rig a preventer for the mainsail, then a whisker pole for the jib and all this time keep the boat under control. Now the sails are set you will be much more active on the helm as there is almost always a following sea causing the stern to skew around uncontrollably unless you anticipate the direction the next wave is going to approach. Beating is probably the simplest point of sail as feed back is instantaneous in all but the lightest of conditions, the sails are in all the way so not much to do there and steering with the headers and lifts just requires some sensitivity on your part to what the wind is doing. Also, on a hot day DDW is stiflingly hot as there is no wind over the cockpit, but beating produces quite a breeze keeping you somewhat cool even on a hot day.
Without a preventer on the main you must be cautious for an accidental gybe and without a whisker pole the jib will puff and collapse creating the big BANG mentioned above, which can put more stress on your chain plates that you could using a heavy hammer.
When my wife is with me I never (anymore) sail dead down wind. She cannot tolerate extreme sun and heat, so I plan on deep reaching on several tacks to get back to the marina, which in my case is dead down wind most of the time.
John


----------



## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

James,

You seem to think that you have done something very special in catching a longer DWL vessel and passing him.

Sorry to break the news, Mate, it happens all the time.

Now, HTFU, go and do some real racing and please come back and tell us how you did against the picnic racers.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ianjoub said:


> Since I am just learning to sail (don't really know how yet), why wouldn't one just not sail DDW? I am sure there are instances where that would be impossible, but it seems that most of the time, one could sail just a few degrees off of DDW.


ccriders summed it up pretty well...

However, the example I mentioned, was the one of people sailing DDW under headsail alone, without the use of a pole... One way to try to improve the situation, is to use the boom in effect as a whisker pole, by easing it out and running the jib sheet thru a block clipped to the end of the boom. The trim of the sail will rarely be ideal, but it's often better than doing nothing, especially when the boat starts rolling...

One of the places I've most often seen people struggling without a pole, is the run down the FL east coast between Palm Beach and Ft Lauderdale... This can be a beautiful sail DDW immediately behind the passage of a cold front, as can often be the case by the time snowbirds have reached S Florida...

But the problem is, you have a very narrow 'corridor' you must stick to between the beach, and north-flowing current of the Gulf Stream... Gybing back and forth in such a tight spot, at least for me, would grow VERY old, very quickly, well before the 40 miles of that trip was up... One might have to gybe 150 times or more, if trying to sail a hot enough angle to tack downwind, while still trying to stay out of the Stream, and off the beach...

Right after a frontal passage, the breeze will generally stay out of the N for the better part of a day or so before clocking to the NE and E, so you're gonna be sailing DDW... Same thing if you continue on down to Miami and into the Hawk Channel, where the breeze is so often NE, blowing straight down the channel... Another route where there's often not much maneuvering room for gybing downwind, you're often compelled to straight line it, DDW...

But on that ride from Lake Worth down to Lauderdale, it's almost guaranteed that if you watch someone attempting to sail along there in the situation I've described, but without the ability to stabilize the headsail with a pole, they'll wind up giving up in fairly short order... The reason being, the wave pattern will rarely match the breeze, and will rather be more of a quartering to a beam sea... As a result, the boat will be rolling, and the headsail will be extremely difficult to keep filled...

So, here we see repeatedly, an example of someone who has just spent at least a few weeks motoring 1,000 miles down the ICW... They've finally made it to sunny S Florida, and are presented with a perfect opportunity to finally jump outside and do some sailing... And yet, they are likely to quickly furl the genoa and fire up the diesel instead, and motor DDW to Lauderdale or beyond, in wonderful sailing conditions, simply because they lack a pole, or the means or inclination to deploy it...

Ironic, no?

Have I mentioned that I can't understand why some folks go off cruising without a downwind pole?

)


----------



## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

Sometimes I'm out with my wife and sprogs. I may have two sails up but I will be trimmed as flat as possible. Speed is not an objective, comfort is.

Sometimes I'm not.

When I pass cruisers drifting around I enjoy their enjoyment, sail underneath them so as not to disturb their day too much and use it as an opportunity to learn more about wind shadows.


----------



## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Remind me again - why would I want to promote sailing?


Your right kid, wouldn't want anyone thinking you were a decent human being, or even a good sailor.

Mr moderator, if this goes against the rules, what does this guys tirade about sailing constitute......


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

jameswilson29 said:


> Yawn...some of you get it, some of you don't, and probably never will (even with a 13K post count - in fact, especially with a 13K post count).
> 
> But, you have inspired me to video the sorry state of contemporary sailing, with the opening of the 2015 season (because most of you won't be out there on the water when I pass you this Fall, Winter and early Spring), so expect to see more:
> 
> ...


Haaaa,,,ruffled some huh

You forgot the picnic sailors who forgot to take the fenders offf


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> I definitely don't get it when an arrogant boat driver who doesn't even understand the sailing rules of the road thinks he's done something awesome for the sailing world by illustrating his prowess in cutting off a real sailor in the stand-on vessel...then going on to put down everyone else that doesn't live up to some standard he's obviously failing miserably at himself. Maybe that's just me...and my 13K posts.


Smack, That's kind of like pot calling the kettle black. You ridicule people constantly. Your comments to him could just as easily be said by many others to reflect your contributions. Least he hasn't been thrown off other forums.

James has the right to his opinion.


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

I hope James doesn't get pissed and drops out as I really enjoy his videos.
John


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Smack, That's kind of like pot calling the kettle black. You ridicule people constantly. Your comments to him could just as easily be said by many others to reflect your contributions. Least he hasn't been thrown off other forums.
> 
> James has the right to his opinion.


Of course he has a right to his opinion. We all do.

But one thing Counselor James (or you, or I) doesn't have the right to is flagrantly breaking the most fundamental regulation of seamanship and claiming it's model sailing.

Well - unless you and Counselor James actually think COLREGS are just _opinion_ that don't _really_ need to be followed when you're showing off with a GoPro strapped to your head.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Of course he has a right to his opinion. We all do.
> 
> But one thing Counselor James (or you, or I) doesn't have the right to is flagrantly breaking the most fundamental regulation of seamanship and claiming it's model sailing.
> 
> Well - unless you and Counselor James actually think COLREGS are just _opinion_ that don't _really_ need to be followed when you're showing off with a GoPro strapped to your head.


Thank you for the lesson on Colegregs.....now do you really take yourself seriously, did it look like James put anyone in danger there Smacky.....

I am sure you follow the letter of law every time, every day, every where.... like you never ever speed or go over the speed limit. Dont go citing COLEREGS like it really mattered in his post

James was just stating his opinion which by the way I dont agree with, but I will fight to allow him to express it without being ridiculed by you in your supercillious manner. Besides some of what he is saying is tounge in cheek.

James was just stating his opinion which by the way I dont agree with, but I will fight to allow him to express it without being ridiculed by you in your supercillious manner. Besides some of what he is saying is tounge in cheek.

You hide behind giberish that you put out while attacking others....same reason you got called out and banned on the other forum....cant you just refrain from the personal; sarcastic comments which have no place in the discussion. That kind of behavior will keep people from reading or even commenting for fear of incurring your wrath and getting called out.....or is that why you really do it.

I have often wondered why the mods on here refuse to reel you in when you make obvious personal comments about people who post on here. You have some valueable insights, but they are lost when you start singling
people out.
Stick to the topic


----------



## sprega (Jun 25, 2002)

James, if you wish to video the sorry state of contemporary sailing, then by all means please continue to post vids of the sails on your boat, as your trim is far from optimal and your eBay bargain sails look like worn out bed sheets. A moderately well sailed 23 ft J70 would sail Circles around you in spite of the inherent good sailing qualities of the Pearson 28.

To quote a friend. "Life is too short to drink bad wine or to sail crappy sails"


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Smack seems to be taking this very personally.

I am beginning to believe his boat(s) have been used as turning marks by other sailors quite frequently...:laugher:laugher:laugher

"Is that Hunter up there anchored with its sails up?"

"No, I think he is trying to sail..."

"Hey, let's use him as a turning mark to head home, should be pretty funny!"

"Whoops, he does not look happy..."


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ccriders said:


> I hope James doesn't get pissed and drops out as I really enjoy his videos.
> John


I think the only thing James is pissed off about, is that last month's Annapolis Boat Show didn't turn out to be the total washout, weather-wise, that he was hoping for...

)


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

You are right...I also am upset there are never any videos of the moment the "lifestyle" sailors at the boat show realize that the promise of free shots is a snipe hunt...


----------



## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> You are right...I also am upset there are never any videos of the moment the "lifestyle" sailors at the boat show realize that the promise of free shots is a snipe hunt...


So, let me see if I understand this. You feel that if a sailor doesn't trim his sails perfectly, sail his or her boat to it's maximum performance at all times, they have no right to sail, be on the water, own a sailboat, call themselves sailors.

OR, are you just jealous, frustrated, angry that some people have the ability to own big boats, motorcycles, large homes, rv's, airplanes, whatever it might be, and do with that what they will, and be happy at the end of the day.

You sure spend an inordinate amount of your time worrying about what others say or do. Life's short James, live and let live...


----------



## nolesailor (Oct 29, 2009)

My wife and I took our seven-month old out for the first time sailing yesterday, and this thread came to mind. It was about 10-15 and we had a reef in the main and a reefed genoa...needless to say perfect sail trim was pretty much the last thing on my mind. If the OP had seen us, I'm sure there would be a thread on here about the wimp out there reefed at 10 knots. When thinking about this all I could do was smile about how petty it is to feel the need to post about someone's perceived lack of sailing skills...

By the way, the sail went great...


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Sail Nazis...they're everywhere!


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

If he mocked a lowly beaten down Catalina 22 with its original sails doing the best it could - that would be mean. It's natural to get a chuckle when the underdog boat passes one that costs 10 times as much. The whole thing was harmless. Like when an old Plymouth beats a new Porche in a drag race. If this is jealous angry or frustrated - give me some of that. I don't see the bitterness of some of these comments.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

nolesailor said:


> *My wife and I took our seven-month old out for the first time sailing yesterday,*


I have to admit, that's a pretty valid point. You're not going to be hell-bent for the horizon with an infant onboard.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

James - You have a beautiful wife and son who occasionally sail with you. At those times, do you trim for full performance, or for their comfort? I think that's a valid consideration, and one which you may not be accounting for when you do your candid camera thing.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It's fairly obvious to me, in my old Alberg, that newer boats are much faster. They are lighter, have less displacement and have totally different design characteristics. To suggest otherwise would be erroneous. Progress in the speed category has occurred, hopefully not the way it occurred before Fastnet.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Sal Paradise said:


> The whole thing was harmless... I don't see the bitterness of some of these comments.


I find the reactions to this quite amazing - look at the emotional energy people have invested in this, how strongly they feel about it.

I am sincere in my points, but used mock outrage to express them. The facts speak for themselves.

Jon Eisberg was quite accurate in his assessment of the sailing world we live in today. I don't know why there is so much denial among the "lifestyle" sailing group about their approach to sailing and their sailing abilities, and why they have so much ego invested in it. It is just like the false belief that their boat excels at all things: blue water cruiser, racer and dockside condo.

Don't ever challenge these imagined beliefs...


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> James - You have a beautiful wife and son who occasionally sail with you. At those times, do you trim for full performance, or for their comfort? I think that's a valid consideration, and one which you may not be accounting for when you do your candid camera thing.


Yes, I tone it down for her. My wife is beautiful, inside and out, and very understanding.

Neither of us is possessive of the other's time. She is completely understanding of my need to spend some time alone and sail the way I want to sail.

I am always very happy to reveal that my wife is four months pregnant with our second child. She suffers from morning sickness and has not gone out with me lately. I am always concerned about my son's safety, so I have been a solo sailor for most of the last four months.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

damn james I got sucked in...

jajajaja I see exactly where you are coming from and it can be said for many sports and hobbies

I can do direct comparisons to motorcycle riding and styles of bikes...today

I think you did too regarding zen and the art of motorcyling

in any case Im an avid rider and see exactly what you are talking about

what I KNOW for sure is that sometimes comments are misunderstood incredibly, especially on forums where emotions and facial expressions and TONE cant be completely expressed unless everytiing has an emoticon which would make reading just too cumbersome

so I get it

I also get those that dont like making fun of others, or dont get sarcasm etc

we are all different

I also remember clearly expressing some of your same comments on a cruising thread that went to the tone of this

"if everybody cruised and used the same boat and went to the same gunkholes and all were out there all the time around the world living the dream, and not marina queens then how much fun would it be for those of us who trully enjoy being "out there" ???"

anyways

thats it for me here

jajajaja

peace


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Should I be cruising along and pass a fellow sailor helming his P28, I'd probably notice if his over-trimmed main was not fully hoisted, and lacked reefing lines, and the traveler was left locked amidships, and that the mainsail still sported a C&C logo, and all this would cause me to smile a bit at the scene. But hey, I know that sailing expertise is a continuum, from clueless to world-class and our own skills all fall somewhere on that line, and for all my personal expertise, that there's others who know more. So it should be OK for someone to be sorta clueless, I'm certainly not the world-class know-it-all.

The problem with the OP is he's too clueless to understand his own place in that continuum.


----------



## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

Tacky.

This is how the one true sailor does it.

http://sailingfortuitous.com/wall_of_shame


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

isnt that the same?


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Mock outrage? I don't think so. Offensive name calling, false bravado, arrogance? Yes maybe. Remember, there are people here at every skill level - rank beginners to circumnavigators. The latter probably brushed this off for what it represents. But how about the couple trying to figure it out without paying big bucks for sailing schools and all that implies? How do you think they feel about your derisive post? Encouraged to ask a seamanship question? 
Also remember that your words are not accompanied by all the interpersonal nuances of a face to face conversation and need to be carefully edited before, that's BEFORE, posting. You can get into a pretty big hole right off the bat if you are not careful with what you type.
So, ask yourself, "why do so many people have so much invested in this issue?"
Oh, but that would be like asking, "why is that guy not racing me when I'm clearly overhauling him?"
Poser, "lifestyle sailor", those are cyphers and if your "outrage" was mocking then you did not have to denigrate the other sailor. Are you an elitist? Be honest with yourself and with us, and we will appreciate your posts even more.
An axiom in the Army was to criticize in privately, praise publicly. Works every time.
John


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chip said:


> Tacky.
> 
> This is how the one true sailor does it.
> 
> Wall of Shame | Sailing Fortuitous


Those are awesome. Have you seen these?


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Thank you for the lesson on Colegregs.....now do you really take yourself seriously, did it look like James put anyone in danger there Smacky.....
> 
> I am sure you follow the letter of law every time, every day, every where.... like you never ever speed or go over the speed limit. Dont go citing COLEREGS like it really mattered in his post


Heh-heh. The Chef defending the Attorney. That's funny...and an interesting line of defense I must say:

"C'mon, Your Honor, you know that you punch your wife in the face every once in a while too. We all do it."


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Those are awesome. Have you seen these?


Perhaps not the most fitting image to go with that caption...

In that particular incident, turns out the guy doing the T-boning was the D-bag...

)










Sinking strains the Corinthian spirit | Soundings Online


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

That's a false argument.

It depends on the severity of the offense. People jaywalk all the time, or fail to use their turn signal and it's usually excused or ignored, especially if no negative consequence occurred. Some people punch their spouse, but it's rarely excused (and should not be).

Do you really put James' transgression at the level of spousal abuse?

I like you, but you really are a master of manipulation and debate, and you do twist words to suit your purposes sometimes. Isn't it adequate to state that he made a maneuver that while technically at a safe distance, might have made some people uncomfortable, without getting into gross, over-dramatic comparisons like domestic violence? 

(setting aside all discussion of his motivation for making this maneuver for the moment.)


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

"Alex, I'll take Bonehead Skippers for two hundred."










Are you guys talking about the crossing in part 3 of 3? That wasn't even close given the light air conditions. Try sailing in a crowded venue like San Francisco Bay. You get this close (or even closer! ) all the time. Put on your big girl knickers and harden up!


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> "Alex, I'll take Bonehead Skippers for two hundred."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This looks like a good shot for a "why do I need insurance" thread.


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

The last thing you want to do is T-Bone anything owned by Tom Perkins.

Now for the rest of the story: The USCG investigation and hearing found that the Pearson did not give the Maltese Falcon room to avoid the collision. The Pearson skipper was finishing his tack to Stb when the collision occurred. Said the Pearson skipper: "I misjudged the closure rate of the Maltese Falcon".


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

"Damn tanker.... why u no have engines at 100%?"


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Yes, I wonder how much insurance paid and how much additional the Pearson skipper paid. He took a pretty big chunk out of a pretty big teak cap rail. His last also punched a hole in one of the Maltese's sails with his masthead.


----------



## sprega (Jun 25, 2002)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I like you, but you really are a master of manipulation and debate,
> 
> (setting aside all discussion of his motivation for making this maneuver for the moment.)


He is called SMACKdaddy


----------



## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

Back in the good-old-days, lawyering was an honorable profession, practiced by people that cared deeply about how well their arguments were trimmed, and the expediency in which they could navigate the law. But now, as you all know, attorneys have abandoned the pursuit of skilled application of their trade, and have turned to the easier route of mostly stabbing each other. Just this week two more Virginia lawyers were seen doing some stabbing:

Attorneys charged in McLean home invasion, stabbing

I will let you draw your own conclusions on the inevitable downfall of the legal system, or whether having fewer capable lawyers around might personally benefit Mr. Wilson's enjoyment of practicing the law. But considering that Mr. Wilson is a Virginia lawyer, for your own safety, I would recommend against antagonizing him.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

You are not the only one concerned.

We used to get a free pass through the metal detectors at the various courthouses. Now, we too must be inspected.

Apparently, many expect lawyers to soon turn violent. I am not sure exactly what we would be mad about - maybe slow Beneteaus....


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> You hide behind giberish that you put out while attacking others....same reason you got called out and banned on the other forum....


Oh, I meant to ask - which forum are you talking about? I've been banned from virtually all of them at some point or another.


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I kinda did what James kinda did, on this very board I "asked" why the southbound very nice sloops in the wide and high sail-under bridges part of the mid-Florida ICW didn't sail or at least motorsail when the "perfect" wind was off their quarter. I was just trying to save them some fuel....well, no, I was probably being kind of a "sailing purist", and from the lawn of my motel in Jensen Beach, no less. Guilty, guilty.

It was explained to me that these sailors were getting their boats south for the winter (this was Christmas) and I "just didn't understand deliveries", and it wasn't up to me to sail their boats for them and be so (shudder) judgemental. I accept this, even though I used to deliver boats, and did try to save fuel, especially if I was going to be at hull speed under sail and not really losing any time.

I came of age as the son of a yacht broker, so people liking sailboats enough to buy one regardless of whether they could dock under sail, or jibe the kite without collapsing it, or even go to windward at all, was what paid our bills. And sometimes I got to deliver their boats to them. So I like them--a lot. Yet I do still "sail their boats for them" when I notice something strangling their potential boatspeed--as if they care. My efforts not to do this are, frankly, halfhearted, but I mean well. Overtrim that main, and lead your jibsheets all wrong, and keep the industry alive!! I'm obviously conflicted about this ;-)

So I'm not inclined to be too hard on James. Though I do think "poseurs" is a tad harsh. Let's just say, "wealthy even beyond their experience", which sounds more like praise.

Actually I wanted to talk about motorcycles, but missed that part. Too late? I, with two high school buddies, once had a '48 Indian Chief we kind of reassembled and rode . Suicide clutch, tank shifter, left-hand throttle, right-hand spark. Later I fell from grace by riding smaller Honda rice-banger twins. 70mph wide open, from New Orleans to Yorktown, Virginia and back, in my misspent "youtt". What's the sailing equivalent, and did I blow it??? ;-)


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

nolatom said:


> So I'm not inclined to be too hard on James. Though I do think "poseurs" is a tad harsh. Let's just say, "wealthy even beyond their experience", which sounds more like praise.


I plan to start using the term "lifestyle sailors" instead of "picnic sailors", which latter term is not really fair to most picnics, which can be quite enjoyable.


----------



## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

jameswilson29 said:


> I plan to start using the term "lifestyle sailors" instead of "picnic sailors", which latter term is not really fair to most picnics, which can be quite enjoyable.


Haha! I was like you many years ago. I had a brand spanking new Laguna 22', which was my first sailboat. I laughed at other sailors using their outboards, as I passed them under sail. This was on lakes in Texas, btw. I got all excited about racing, and entered in several PHRF events on Canyon Lake. I beat the hell out of that little boat, but soon figured out that there were better sailors out there, and I needed to spend thousands for new sails to be competitive. I yelled at the crew to "TRIM!" I was Captain Bligh! Well, since I couldn't afford the fastest boat on the lake, I gave up racing. Now....42 years later, my wife and I cruise on our stripped down Hunter 36, only 32 years old herself. No autopilot, no windlass, no radar, no EPIRB or liferaft, no radar, and who knows what else I'm missing. Enjoyment is not one of the things I'm missing. If you want to sail by me in some bay, or crossing the Gulf Stream, heading to Nassau on the Tongue of the Ocean, crossing from the Exumas to Eleuthera, or Eleuthera to the Abacos....go for it. I will be at anchor when I plan to be there, sipping on a beer or some other refreshing beverage, while soaking up the beauty of this particular anchorage.

I'm not going to beat myself up to get outside against current, then deal with current and winds on the other end. Not when I can motor up or down the ditch in less time, with less stress on the boat and crew, just to be a bada$$ sailor. I could go on and on about how cruisers do what they do, but I'll just drop it for now.

Call us what you will. I don't know the guy on that Beneteau, but if it was me, I wouldn't bother to trim the sails for a race with a little Pearson as long as we make our anchorage on time. Happy you got a kick out of it, though. I remember how it was to be young, with an ego that is important at your age.

No sailing with a pregnant wife or infant on board? WTF? Other cruisers out there doing that right now. Cruisers out there getting hate mail on FB, saying they are unfit parents and should have the kids taken away by CPS because they are cruising with kids onboard. You are young, and have much to learn, James.

Enjoy, and knock yourself out, James.

Ralph


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

I have known many "lifestyle cyclists" who regularly brought their bikes to me for maintenance. Surgeons, lawyers, district attorney, bank managers, mud logger, dentists, anethesiaologist....
They fit your description exactly, but boy was I envious of the adventures they had on their bicycles. Ride the Rockies, tour of the Loire valley, bicentennial bike celebration in Australia. And much more. Were they speeding along at a Tour de France pace? Not hardly. Did they exhibit perfect form, descent technique, or sprint finish. Afraid not. But they were cyclists, inter alia, living the "life style" much to the envy of many. So put that Zen in your pipe and smoke it. I'll bet they don't even know you exist and care as much should you make a video of them.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

^^^bingo


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

James I saw this on CL thought you might be interested -

Pearson Main sail


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

nolatom said:


> Actually I wanted to talk about motorcycles, but missed that part. Too late? I, with two high school buddies, once had a '48 Indian Chief we kind of reassembled and rode . Suicide clutch, tank shifter, left-hand throttle, right-hand spark. Later I fell from grace by riding smaller Honda rice-banger twins. 70mph wide open, from New Orleans to Yorktown, Virginia and back, in my misspent "youtt". What's the sailing equivalent, and did I blow it??? ;-)


I have been riding motorcycles for 30 years. I have well over 1/2 million miles on streetbikes, countless hours on roadracing tracks, and countless hours on dirtbikes in the woods. About 5 years ago, I decided I wanted to see the country. I outfitted a pair of 250 ninjas. My g/f and I rode 10,000 miles, in 30 days, camping most of it on those little 250's. It was a wonderful experience.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. The Chef defending the Attorney. That's funny...and an interesting line of defense I must say:
> 
> "C'mon, Your Honor, you know that you punch your wife in the face every once in a while too. We all do it."


Interesting choice of analogies Smacky....so are you trying to infer that I think it's ok to punch my wife in the face.....why would you put it in quotes ....especially the part ...we all do it.

That's way below even your low standards

You are lower than pond scum with your analogies in attributing such an 
Abhorant analogy to another Sailnet member. Why do you pick this particularly offensive analogy shock value in supreme insult

Again this type of behavior doesn't encourage people to want to read or join in SN forums. But will the esteemed mods take action against you.....doubt it
They seem to let you get away with anything you choose to vomit

Cheers to Cruisers Forum for seeing you as the person you have become.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> ...Why do you pick this particularly offensive analogy shock value in supreme insult...


I don't even engage in discussions with Smack - it requires too great a time commitment and it is largely pointless.

Bubblehead believes he is a good debater. I respectfully disagree because quantity does not make up for a lack of quality. In his favor, he focuses on one point relentlessly and shows dogged determination. Unfortunately, the one point is usually erroneous. Repetition does not make up for lack of gray matter.

He reminds me of a few lawyers that the judges just listen to politely and then ignore. There is nothing new, original, unique, insightful or illuminating to hear. Instead, it just repetitive blather. They already know exactly what they are going to say.

One of the rules of persuasion is to trust the intelligence of your audience. People are receptive to new ideas and do not have to be beaten over the head. Some people will get it, some will not. Not every argument will be won by beating someone over the head with a stick.

Look at Smack's post count - 13K and rising. The law of diminishing returns applies to forum participation. You can get something out of some limited participation - some new ideas, information and relevant topics to think about. The more you participate, the less you get out of it. Inevitably, any normal participant becomes frustrated.

It is obvious to me that Smack is frustrated and wants to engage in person to person arguments, which he apparently has the unlimited time to engage in. Unlike him, I have a life - a job, family, responsibilities and other interests. Just like the saying, "Don't wrestle with a pig&#8230;", "Don't argue with an &#8230;"


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I think everyone needs to have a little sense of humor.

You're not going to put out this fire by throwing gasoline on it.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> Look at Smack's post count - 13K and rising. *The law of diminishing returns applies to forum participation. You can get something out of some limited participation - some new ideas, information and relevant topics to think about. The more you participate, the less you get out of it.* Inevitably, any normal participant becomes frustrated.
> 
> &#8230;"


Im starting to feel this way

honestly I took a big break from here mostly because life gets in the way, however I seem to be sucked into a vortex of arguing again for no real reason...

your statement is very true James

also I might say that many members are this way too and before I get the:

"if you don´t like it just leave quotes thrown at me, let me say that it has been an honor and a privilege to be here"



peace


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think everyone here needs to take a deep breath and chill a little.

I 'get' the chuckle and satisfaction one can get from 'outsailing' a larger, newer, more expensive boat. I too shake my head at bad sail trim and scallops, motoring in prime sailing conditions, and so on. And I'm not above a gloat or two under those circumstances. I can even remember after getting spanked on a race course looking for a lowly Columbia 26 to beat up on on the way back to the marina...

But surely while that might rate a 'look at me' vid posting, it certainly shouldn't bring down the acrimony and back and forth that this thread has devolved into. Discuss what that big Bene should have been doing.. speculate on his priorities but lets keep the personalities out of this.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Faster said:


> I think everyone here needs to take a deep breath and chill a little.
> 
> I 'get' the chuckle and satisfaction one can get from 'outsailing' a larger, newer, more expensive boat. I too shake my head at bad sail trim and scallops, motoring in prime sailing conditions, and so on. And I'm not above a gloat or two under those circumstances. I can even remember after getting spanked on a race course looking for a lowly Columbia 26 to beat up on on the way back to the marina...
> 
> But surely while that might rate a 'look at me' vid posting, it certainly shouldn't bring down the acrimony and back and forth that this thread has devolved into. Discuss what that big Bene should have been doing.. speculate on his priorities but lets keep the personalities out of this.


I think we out to have a "picnic" in honor of James and have gunnysack races and practice passing each other and abiding by ALL the COLEREGS rules sic.:laugher:laugher


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm guessing the Bene doing what he wanted to do on his boat at that moment. 

If I were to speculate on his priorities, I'd say that he fell off the wind a little to allow James to pass to starboard and avoid a close quarter crossing situation. He could have eased his sails when he fell off, but perhaps he wanted to keep an eye on the approaching vessel to his port, and perhaps he just wanted to let everyone go by him on their merry way so he could resume his peaceful sail in a little solitude. 

I never saw that the Bene was on a Broad reach, more like a close reach and it looks like James was on a beam reach then turned downwind to cross his bow..judging by the limp jib in the 3rd video. 

No good deed goes unpunished.


----------



## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> I think we out to have a "picnic" in honor of James and have gunnysack races and practice passing each other and abiding by ALL the COLEREGS rules sic.:laugher:laugher


I think that Chef is onto something brilliant here, but I'd suggest a bit of a twist on the race part.

John Conway, in his book "Catboat Summers" (great read by the way) describes a sailboat race he entered. There were the usual prizes for first, second, and third place finishers. BUT, the biggest prize was reserved for the sailboat that came in last. The rules required boats to keep their sails up and their boats moving forward on the race course. The last boat to cross the finish line in the allotted time "won."

Took great skill to play the puffs (by avoiding them), adjusting the trim of the sail to get minimum drive, etc. (All while observing COLREGS, of course.) It was highly competitive and Conway barely managed to eke out last place.

So, I suggest that the Chesapeake Bay Sailnet sailors organize the 2015 James Wilson Race to Be Last sailing contest! And may the best picnic and lifestyle sailor win!


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

One day someone should start stereotyping lawyers the way they do sailors in large, pricey beneteaus....oh, wait...


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Tempest said:


> I'm guessing the Bene doing what he wanted to do on his boat at that moment.
> 
> If I were to speculate on his priorities, I'd say that he fell off the wind a little to allow James to pass to starboard and avoid a close quarter crossing situation. He could have eased his sails when he fell off, but perhaps he wanted to keep an eye on the approaching vessel to his port, and perhaps he just wanted to let everyone go by him on their merry way so he could resume his peaceful sail in a little solitude.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I see in the videos. And this is exactly why I think bragging about "passing" this guy is beyond silly - on every level.


----------



## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

James :

You overlook two fundamentals.

The second one cost you 0.01 knot and was not deliberate.
The first one cost him two knots (the speed type) and was deliberate.

The music you play breaks your intense concentration and costs you 0.01 kt. 
But, if you listen very carefully over the noise of that music, you can hear the whistle of his kettle boiling. He's making himself a cup of tea (or coffee) and has sheeted in his sails to slow his boat to a crawl so the water does not slosh about in the kettle. The by-product is that your smaller boat is faster than his, but not when he has finished his tea (or coffee). 
Just you wait until he has finished with the kettle. Man, that 46 will take off like a 46 and leave your 28 Pearson panting in his wake. 

If the wind gets up a bit, even my 10 ton 36 footer will be faster than your 28, but if I am making tea (British, after all), and trim sails as tight as that, man you will come past me like I am stopped.

Ease up a bit James. Give them a wave as you go past, or if he passes you. We need friendship more than we need competition in this sailing game we both inhabit. 
.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> I don't even engage in discussions with Smack - it requires too great a time commitment and it is largely pointless.
> 
> Bubblehead believes he is a good debater. I respectfully disagree because quantity does not make up for a lack of quality. In his favor, he focuses on one point relentlessly and shows dogged determination. Unfortunately, the one point is usually erroneous. Repetition does not make up for lack of gray matter.
> 
> ...


Heh-heh. Going purely by the "Likes" in this thread, the jury seems to disagree with you and the judge.

#13,477


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Come on..first of all it WAS a race..but the Captain of the Bene wasn't making tea..... he was making sushi for his mother in law and then he had to run into the head and shut off the water his mutinous crew was wasting on their ridiculous eye glasses.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Obviously, some of your excuses, justifications, and rationalizations for his poor sailing are meant to be humorous.

It is scary to realize that some of you are serious though in your thought patterns.

The video covers the last 5 minutes of our encounter. We were both in the main river channel sailing S.E. toward the bridge and the Bay, the way most people sail in the area when leaving Urbanna.

I saw him about 1/2 mile ahead of me and caught up with him over the course of about 30 or more minutes. So you are only seeing the last 5 minutes of a half hour sequence. The wind was shifting direction and velocity. I was paying attention and was enjoying catching up to another, larger, newer boat. He either was not paying attention for more than 30 minutes, or did not know how to sail well, or did not care. They were not having a wine and cheese party or a dance party on deck. They were not moving around. It was an older couple (as most 40+ foot boat owners are). No one else was with them, as far as I could tell. They were in the cockpit the whole time, as far as I can tell. We gave each other a friendly wave as we passed on opposite directions. I have no personal animosity toward the owner, who is not identifiable from the video, as far as I can tell. He was not bothered by my sailing, as far as I can tell.

If I had known the sheer amount of ridiculous animosity and criticism this video and this post would generate, most of it entirely without any foundation in reality, I would not have posted it. I expected some of you might be upset, but not nearly to the extent you have been. Apparently, passing and circling a boat is a much bigger deal than I ever realized - to me it just means I was sailing faster. Yes, I intentionally fanned the flames here, mostly for humorous purposes, but some of you clearly flamed way out of control in your interpretations and reactions.

What I saw was a large, new, expensive boat that was not being sailed well, even though the captain/crew were in a position to do so, and seemed to be headed purposefully under sail. As previously stated, this was not the first time I have witnessed that. To me, it likely says something about the contemporary state of sailing.

The real mystery is why so many people have such a hard time accepting the simple explanation for what I witnessed with my own eyes and filmed on video.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Obviously, some of your excuses, justifications, and rationalizations for his poor sailing are meant to be humorous.
> 
> It is scary to realize that some of you are serious though in your thought patterns.
> 
> ...


Because for most people, the thrill of knowing you've trimmed your sails to virtual perfection in order to out sail a much larger boat would not have lasted past the five minutes after the whole "moment of victory" was all said and done. A true sailor, in my humble (and somewhat inexperienced) opinion, would have quickly moved on to either preparing for the next way point, or better yet, trying to find the coldest beer at the bottom of the cooler.


----------



## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

Being the "Senior Smart Aleck", you might catch some flack from time to time. Just sayin... 

I wonder if you'd have passed the Bene if the wind was blowing 5 knots more? Conditions looked pretty light for a 46' boat. Anyway...it looks like you love sailing your boat. Nothing at all wrong with that. Personally, my beef has never been with another sailor, but those big sportfishing boats is another story.

Ralph


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Something similar happened to me the other day, but I wasn't on my sailboat.

I was driving down the interstate in my Chevrolet truck, and came up on a Corvette that was loping along at about 60 MPH. I went into the left lane and gunned it and blew past him. I'm only sorry I didn't get a video of it.


----------



## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Why did you expect some people would be upset?


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Ninefingers said:


> Why did you expect some people would be upset?


Thank you - that is a great question and fits exactly into the point I was trying to make with all this. I will explain my post.

This was not primarily about self-aggrandizement. All I have claimed is that I was paying attention to my sail trim. I am an ordinary competent sailor with a Craigslist boat and eBay sails who has done some solo day sailing and coastal cruising.

My themes on this listserv have consistently been:

1. Humor;
2. Anti-commercial;
3. Anti-materialistic;
4. Anti-new is necessarily better
5. Anti-bigger is necessarily better
6. Anti-spend more on sailing is necessarily better
7. Anti-complicating things with more and more gear and equipment
8. Anti-skipping the basics of learning how to sail minimally by yourself (not through a school)

The commercial undercurrent in the sailing world is entirely the opposite - buy, buy, buy, buy bigger, buy newer, buy this and buy that, spend more, complicate more.

I have been outspoken in my opposition to all that that stands for. You have the perfect right to buy whatever you want. To me, that kind of boat represents what I have railed about on this listserv.

So, I expected people who buy the commercial line, who think newer is necessarily better, or bigger is necessarily better, or more expensive is necessarily better, or Beneteau is necessarily better, to be somewhat bothered by seeing all-that-commercialism-represents, supposedly better, being outdone in this instance by an old, cheap, small Craigslist boat with eBay sails (as I said, with some intentional exaggeration and a slam against ASA classes, in the first post).

I restated that point in my first point - it just shows sailing enjoyment is not related to how much money you spend.

To me, posting a video is hardly an exceptional thing. I have 86 videos posted on my personal YouTube channel (and 40-something on my business channel), mostly trivial things that interest me - boat haulouts, anchorages, sailing, vacations with my family. I have regularly linked to those 86 videos without any particular reaction from any one. I often start a thread or respond to a post with a video link.

Again, I am really amazed that this particular video generated the kind of reaction it did. I expected a little, but not this. Obviously, I posted it to generate discussion.

I am firmly against anyone having to explain or defend themselves on an internet forum, and it is usually ineffective and unnecessary (and gives anonymous posters who like to attack people personally further grounds to do so), and yet here I find myself doing it, but this whole thing seems to have been grossly misinterpreted and blown out of proportion.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Thank you - that is a great question and fits exactly into the point I was trying to make with all this.
> 
> This was not primarily about self-aggrandizement. I am an ordinary competent sailor with a Craigslist boat and eBay sails who has done some solo day sailing and coastal cruising.
> 
> ...


Dude, it's not the video. It's what you _*said*_ about it and the guy in it. See the bold part above? I don't think anyone cares if you slam that general notion. I certainly don't.

What people (including me) are responding negatively to is this stuff...



jameswilson29 said:


> Today, I smoked by Beneteau 46 thanks to good trimming.





jameswilson29 said:


> Why can't these picnic sailors trim their sails?





jameswilson29 said:


> This "sailor" uses his boat as a second home condo that he sleeps overnight on in about once or twice a month with his wife; he "sails" 2 or 3 times a season (the bottom is fouled with barnacles) to motorsail to a raft up with a club; he has never left the Chesapeake Bay; he bought the boat new after attending a boat show and has been "sailing" for a few years; when he visits the boat he washes it and installs new equipment/electronics and talks about sailing, after a few cocktails; and he dreams about circumnavigating after he retires (which dream will likely be rudely interrupted in reality before starting by heart attack or stroke, unless he really starts the trip, in which case he will be rescued by the Coast Guard or his wife will bail on him after the first rough passage).





jameswilson29 said:


> I will carry this a bit further for your edification, because this deals with the contemporary decline of real sailing and the philosophy of sailing&#8230;





jameswilson29 said:


> This same phenomena has affected sailing. There are a bunch of posers whose identities are wrapped up in being sailors, which usually revolves around boat ownership and buying stuff. They love boat shows and big new boats and all the gear and equipment. Their actual involvement in sailing and understanding the activity is minimal.
> 
> So where and when, if ever, does the proverbial rubber hit the road? The rubber hits the road when these "sailors" believe that sitting and sleeping on a boat for years, going to boat shows, buying stuff, motorsailing to raft ups, and sitting on someone else's boat during an offshore passage makes them a real sailor. Then, during a rally in the ocean somewhere, they actually have to demonstrate some sailing ability (which they never possessed) with no engine and no electronics and the EPIRB is activated.





jameswilson29 said:


> Yes, some of you are posers, and it shows because you really don't know how to sail&#8230;





jameswilson29 said:


> A 1977 Pearson 28 catches up to, and passes, a much newer, larger and more expensive Beneteau 46, which appears to be poorly trimmed for the wind direction.





jameswilson29 said:


> Filming picnic sailors in their antics may just become a new hobby for me, just for entertainment. Should I add a laugh track to the videos?





jameswilson29 said:


> Will the administrators please set up a separate subforum, "Sailors Who Can't Sail: Comic Videos of Picnic Sailors in Over Their Heads!"? Subtitle: "Please Stay in Your Slip Where You Belong!"





jameswilson29 said:


> I plan to start using the term "lifestyle sailors" instead of "picnic sailors", which latter term is not really fair to most picnics, which can be quite enjoyable.


What does ANY of the above have to do with your new spin on things in your latest post - or even the video itself?

Can you _actually_ not see the difference?

YOU are the one that blew it out of proportion from the get-go. So own it.


----------



## clip68 (Jun 26, 2014)

What I find particularly funny is this exact thread was posted on another forum with the same exact results.


----------



## Morild (Mar 31, 2013)

Wow, this thing really escalated 
We are all in different modes when we sail, and even in diffrent modes depending on the circumstances.
OP was probably in racing-mode at the time, the other not so much.


----------



## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

clip68 said:


> What I find particularly funny is this exact thread was posted on another forum with the same exact results.


Yes, with the exception that the members on the other forum used somewhat more "descriptive" language.... ;-)


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Very strange. I see no reason for any such reaction. 

Still, like James , I am not surprised. I just think the reaction sucks and I hate reading it. 

JamesWilson is one of the few people who uses his own name on a forum where most of us are anonymous. In my book that is owning what he says.


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I have kinda enjoyed this thread. We are a "big tent" here, certainly big enough for both James and Smack, who are both okay with me (for what that's worth, ha ha).

I teach most of the time I am sailing these days, or am a charter capt if it's not a lesson. I use "bad sailing" to pump up my students, in a, uh, quiet way which "stays on the boat":

"see how your main is eased out? not like that guy over there who has it strapped in way too far and is killing himself (speed-wise)?? You're on your *first* lesson and sailing *better* than that rich guy!!"

or, when after a few minutes close-hauled the student on the tiller manages to keep both jib telltales horizontal--"Not even *Dennis Conner* or the best professional sailor could sail this boat any faster than you are, right now!!"

I could be wrong but I'm just not quite as sure as James is that sailing used to be all that much more skillfully-performed by most sailors out there back then, than now. 


But it's been fun. Can we all get off the rail, ease off some from pinching as hard as we can, and settle down on a nice reach?? ;-)


----------



## sprega (Jun 25, 2002)

When the trim of my sails is criticized, I like to keep an open mind, as I know that after 45 years of sailing, there remains much I don't know. I mostly sail alone and fairly constantly trim my sails. I enjoy that aspect of sailing. Having qualities sails that actually fit my rig is a big part of that. I seldom criticize other peoples sailing ability unless ask for an opinion. The posting of a video criticizing someone else's ability to trim there sails when in the same video you do one brief shot of your own poorly trimmed sails (baggy main, no use of traveler, poor draft location, etc. one of your YouTube vids shows you on a spinnaker run and your traveler is still locked on center) is the pot calling the kettle black


----------



## sprega (Jun 25, 2002)

James, I must say this has been a very thought provoking and enjoyable thread. Your love of sailing is obvious. I also think that P28s are great boats. Man your guns and sail on!


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I too, am a bit surprised by the hue and cry over being passed by an older/smaller boat. Did the OP strike to close to home? From all of the justifications (and the occasional juvenile retort), I get the impression that the people who identify themselves with the Beneteau must get passed a lot themselves. Whereas I have three "modes" of sailing - race, delivery and "joyride", my boat only recognizes two - being sailed well and not being sailed well. Even when I'm joyriding, I strive to sail well. I, and the OP can't be the only sailors out there who get a certain satisfaction over out sailing the other guy, no matter the circumstance. I say, "good on you" to James and keep those videos coming. To those of you who thought the crossing was too close, you ought to try sailing in a more crowed venue. We're used to rush hour traffic here in Cali!


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

clip68 said:


> What I find particularly funny is this exact thread was posted on another forum with the same exact results.


No way! Where?

Nevermind - I found it on SA. Heh-heh.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> I too, am a bit surprised by the hue and cry over being passed by an older/smaller boat. Did the OP strike to close to home? From all of the justifications (and the occasional juvenile retort), I get the impression that the people who identify themselves with the Beneteau must get passed a lot themselves. Whereas I have three "modes" of sailing - race, delivery and "joyride", my boat only recognizes two - being sailed well and not being sailed well. Even when I'm joyriding, I strive to sail well. I, and the OP can't be the only sailors out there who get a certain satisfaction over out sailing the other guy, no matter the circumstance. I say, "good on you" to James and keep those videos coming. To those of you who thought the crossing was too close, you ought to try sailing in a more crowed venue. We're used to rush hour traffic here in Cali!


I race and I am anal about sail trim. I ******* lose my mind when the jib trimmer takes his eyes off the telltales to take a damn cell phone call from his wife. And yet I still think OP should worry more about himself than the other guy. Hey OP, why don't you post a video of YOUR sails while underway? I bet SN readers could find at least a half dozen or more shortcomings in your sail trim or setup.


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I would, but I don't have a GoPro or camera phone. But if you want to critique my trim, Freya is the boat flying "Pinky" in the accompanying photo.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> I would, but I don't have a GoPro or camera phone. But if you want to critique my trim, Freya is the boat flying "Pinky" in the accompanying photo.


Not you, the Original Poster!


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Here's another photo.


----------



## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

james...

Next time you are in Scotland, look me up. 
My ship is close to Loch Ness, my neck hurts and is due to worsen, and I need someone to crank that enormous mainsail on my USC Polaris 36 (the prettiest thing that ever floated, apart from a swan... the one that flies, that is). 
All the sub-systems work.
I will buy the beer even though I don't booze.
And the heater works.
And Loch Ness is as pretty as it is deep, and it's got a monster.
And you can perfect my sail trim.
And maybe we can overhaul a 45 ?
.


----------



## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Nevermind - I found it on SA. Heh-heh.


Ouch. That was pretty painful to read.

Ralph


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Even worse is when you get 'relax and cruisers', in the same boat with 'speed racers'. Bringing my boat back from the Bahamas a few years ago, I brought a professional racer with me. About the second day, I had to tell him that if he told me to set my beer down, and let the jib sheet off half an inch (after just winching it in one inch a minute before), one more time, I was going to throw him overboard. 

And, of course, we had a "everybody get on the sails, a boat is catching us" moment, when the rest of said, "So what?".


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Group9 said:


> Even worse is when you get 'relax and cruisers', in the same boat with 'speed racers'. Bringing my boat back from the Bahamas a few years ago, I brought a professional racer with me. About the second day, I had to tell him that if he told me to set my beer down, and let the jib sheet off half an inch (after just winching it in one inch a minute before), one more time, I was going to throw him overboard.
> 
> And, of course, we had a "everybody get on the sails, a boat is catching us" moment, when the rest of said, "So what?".


Sounds like he suffered from Post Traumatic Sailing Disorder. :laugher


----------



## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

James what a lame, silly thing to post about sailing. Go back and read the post about the guy passing the corvette on the highway; and then read it again; and then read it again and then keep reading it until it makes sense.

Silly

Mike


----------



## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

So let's see, for me:

fun things ... going fast, trimming well, sailing with attention to dynamics, going faster than other boats, noticing things on other boats that could be improved, improving my skills, being on the water, sailing the way I like to, but also ...going slowly, being safe but depowered, using the engine, ... lots of fun things.

not fun things ... calling other people names, making assumptions about people I don't know, making uncomplimentary judgements about groups of people based on personal preferences (as opposed to fact based or moral imperatives), thinking that - or acting like - my way is better than other people's.

So people. There is no such thing as "the right way to sail". It's just more complicated than that. So choose that best way for you and have fun with it. We all must put saftey first. I personally like to sail my boat well (sail trimmed, boat moving, easy boat motion). Sometimes I race. Sometimes not. Sometimes passage speed is important. Sometimes I don't want to make a fast passage. Some times I sail a bit more on the edge, sometimes I de-power. Like one of the previous posters, I often sail with people with physical disabilities aboard, so that takes consideration also. 

James, while you had some interesting points to make, there were also some vocabulary in your posts that was not fun for me, and others, to read. You might want to examine your writing and see if there is some truth in this opinion. You sound like an educated guy, and have a lot of good insights. You obviously like to contribute, and examining your posts in light of the comments of others might help make your communications even more interesting, accurate, and enjoyable. In honesty, Smack-daddy, that might be a good idea for you too. I'll try to do the same.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Scotty C-M said:


> James, while you had some interesting points to make, there were also some vocabulary in your posts that was not fun for me, and others, to read. You might want to examine your writing and see if there is some truth in this opinion. You sound like an educated guy, and have a lot of good insights. You obviously like to contribute, and examining your posts in light of the comments of others might help make your communications even more interesting, accurate, and enjoyable. In honesty, Smack-daddy, that might be a good idea for you too. I'll try to do the same.


Sounds perfectly fair. Thanks Scotty.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Alden68 said:


> James what a lame, silly thing to post about sailing. Go back and read the post about the guy passing the corvette on the highway; and then read it again; and then read it again and then keep reading it until it makes sense.
> 
> Silly
> 
> Mike


Actually, you raise an excellent point and you carry the Zen concept to a different field. I autocrossed a Miata for 3 years and saw quite a few Honda Civics and Corvettes in action. I also followed casually some track racing, although I never participated in it.

On a number of occasions, I saw 100 to 160 h.p. Hondas and Mazdas smoke the 400 h.p. Corvettes. I was aware that the Lotus Elise was one of the top track cars at the time, with a piddling 180 h.p.

So some people accept the commercial message and try to buy as much as they can, others try to make as much as they can out of less. I do not accept the proposition that more is necessarily better. I think it is much more challenging to make a slow car go fast than to drive a fast car slow. Plus, it is a lot cheaper.

How often can a Corvette reach its potential in normal semi-legal driving? Never??? (Maybe once in awhile in the early morning hours on a deserted road.)

How often can a Honda or Miata reach its potential in normal semi-legal street driving? Frequently. And the owners are frequently working on their own cars, so they truly understand them and how they work.

So which is the car chosen more by posers trying to impress on the street and which is the truer sports car on the street chosen by the Zen crowd? Which driver is more likely to be asleep at the wheel and/or unskilled, and which one is more tuned into the entire driving experience?

(BTW, a Corvette is a great value and can be a great sports car in those rare skilled hands, but it must be one of the most frustrating cars to own and drive, as you continually drive it at less than 25% of its potential on the street if you want to keep your license.)

(Oh, and cue the anonymous trolls with the Miata secretary/hairdresser car remarks - yes, you guys must be really courageous and manly to hide behind invented screen names!)


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

On the autocross topic, I will add that one of the funniest scenes played out would be the occasional event where some poser shows up in his expensive Ferrari thinking he is going to bust loose. Instead, after a series of spin outs, missed turns, and oversteering, he goes home never to return, realizing he just got his arse handed to him by a bunch of 100 h.p. rice burners.


----------



## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

jameswilson29 said:


> (BTW, a Corvette is a great value and can be a great sports car in skilled hands, but it must be one of the most frustrating cars to own and drive, as you continually drive it at less than 25% of its potential on the street if you want to keep your license.)
> 
> (Oh, and cue the anonymous trolls with the Miata secretary/hairdresser car remarks - yes, you guys must be really courageous and manly to hide behind an invented screen name!)


I have an MG Midget, but the wife and I plan to have a 50' sailboat in a few years.... Where does that put us?


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> (Oh, and cue the anonymous trolls with the Miata secretary/hairdresser car remarks - yes, you guys must be really courageous and manly to hide behind invented screen names!)


No, no, most macho guys, dream of owning a Miata, one day, and smoking Corvettes. I was at a construction site the other day, and all I heard them talking about, was what kind of Miatas they could get if they traded their four wheel drive trucks in. 

And, as far as anonymity on the internet, and hairdressers being wimpy, here's a picture of me (on the far left) and my wife's hairdresser (on the far right)! He's drives a four wheel drive truck, right now, but he's looking for a Miata!


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Oh I tried not to get dragged in, but here goes; I am a motorcycle nut. Ride a Triumph Bonneville. I have 3 good friends who bought bikes around the same time I got the Bonny. They all bought this type;










I purchased this for 1/10th the price -










The choppers are generally around 1600 cc and the Bonny is about half that. And I thought my bike would be the slowest of the bunch. But the truth is it can ride rings around the choppers all day long and has a character and soul to it that makes it better with each year. So the Bonny has been everywhere camping and traveling and my buddies average 2k miles per year. When we do take a rare trip into the mountains together, the performance of the Bonny is so vastly better than the choppers that I have had to stop raciing my buddies because they got mad. I used to pass them on the turn exit while waving bye-bye over the tank. It can pass them like they are standing still . They don't like that. I mean they have leather chaps and doo rags ect and I am wearing a Kevlar armor jacket, helmet and boots. Its hardly fair.

Is this what we are talking about?


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Yes, in my book, absolutely. I think Triumph makes a cool bike. I don't understand why more people don't ride them.

I heard a biker say the way you know you have ridden a Harley is the amount of oil in your jeans (as the engine leaks). I don't understand why people pay the prices that they do.


----------



## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> I don't understand


nuff said


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Yes, in my book, absolutely. I think Triumph makes a cool bike. I don't understand why more people don't ride them.
> 
> I heard a biker say the way you know you have ridden a Harley is the amount of oil in your jeans (as the engine leaks). I don't understand why people pay the prices that they do.


I don't understand why people pay lawyers as much as they do.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

weinie said:


> I don't understand why people pay lawyers as much as they do.


Okay - now THAT'S funny.


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I hope you know, James. We're just messing with you. Too much of a low hanging fruit with a stick in your hand, thing. Just too hard to resist.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Here I thought this was an ignoramous thread.......hmmmmmmm.....

Well, at least in my initial post, about #5-7 on this thread, the C&C41 and Ben43 knew they were racing a 28LOD boat. 50 yds away......hell, the B43 had a shoal draft, a foot less than me, I got to call to make it tack when the shoal started coming on, and were were maybe 10-20' apart! FEET, not yards.......I pass behind, and have been passed behind by 10-20' of boat.....yep, FEET, not yards......

Well any who. time to get ready to make a few ear to ear arcs at 9000' if the weather is nice enough, forecast is good, not sure about them 25-35mph winds tho.......could be cold with wind chills in the -5F range!

Why was the SA post in CA of all places, would have been way the hecko more fun in the regular anarchy forum! oh the name calling, pics......oh such phun to be made..........

Marty


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I fully subscribe to the notion that any two boats sailing in the same direction are racing. I pass everyone! (or we never speak of it again)

However, anyone that takes this humorous rivalry seriously, doesn't get it.

There are always times where a sailor may have no where to go and all day to get there. Relaxing on a poorly trimmed boat because one is too chilled to get up and trim is fine in my book. I still gloat aboard when I scream past, but I don't seriously think I scored any points.


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> Interesting choice of analogies Smacky....so are you trying to infer that I think it's ok to punch my wife in the face.....why would you put it in quotes ....especially the part ...we all do it.
> 
> That's way below even your low standards
> 
> ...


My apologies. I should have responded to this before. Naturally enough I cannot be certain but my opinion is that Smack was having a dig but not in the manner that Chef thinks he was. I don't think for one moment that Smack was accusing Chef of being a wife beater. He can be somewhat abrupt and most likely somewhat tactless at times but I simply don't see him making such an outrageous and unbackable claim. So at times like this one must make a judgement call and that's mine.

As for the mods not taking any action against him .... Smack, remind us just who it was that sent you on vacation some time back ?


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tdw said:


> My apologies. I should have responded to this before. Naturally enough I cannot be certain but my opinion is that Smack was having a dig but not in the manner that Chef thinks he was. I don't think for one moment that Smack was accusing Chef of being a wife beater. He can be somewhat abrupt and most likely somewhat tactless at times but I simply don't see him making such an outrageous and unbackable claim. So at times like this one must make a judgement call and that's mine.
> 
> As for the mods not taking any action against him .... Smack, remind us just who it was that sent you on vacation some time back ?


Which one? You guys have sent me on two now...for perfectly good reason I might add.

And you're absolutely right about the above. I was simply being abrupt and tactless - making an extreme analogy about how it's okay to disregard the rules when it suits you, because "c'mon, Smack, you know you kick puppies off of bridges too so disregarding the COLREGS for a bit of sport is just fine". That kind of thing.

I just thought it was a funny defense that Chef was offering up.

Anyway, one thing is for certain: if I were bragging about the same, Chef would be squarely in my corner defending my actions too. Surely.


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I finally got around to reading the companion discussion on this over on CA.

To say the very least, James was treated gently over here compared to the beating he took over there. 

It was like watching a film of a baby seal getting clubbed to death (I wanted to send money).


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Group9 said:


> I finally got around to reading the companion discussion on this over on CA.
> 
> To say the very least, James was treated gently over here compared to the beating he took over there.
> 
> It was like watching a film of a baby seal getting clubbed to death (I wanted to send money).


I view the world of sailing forums differently than many others. I still believe the interesting thing about my video post, both here and on SA, was the strong reactions it generated. That says more about the members who responded than about me.

I have explained myself several times and many still don't seem to get it or believe it.

People view other's actions through the lens of their own wants and needs. Many people have a need to be accepted as part of a group and conform their behavior to achieve that need. Predictably, those folks avoid ruffling feathers at all costs and are quick to apologize and soothe feelings when appropriate.

Others have a need to build up their egos. Everything is designed to impress others and make themselves feel special. Self-aggrandizement is the name of the game, so these folks interpret everyone else's actions through the same lens.

Others don't care about conforming or self-aggrandizement. I care more about self-expression, entertainment and dialogue than being part of a group. I thought my posts were funny. There were serious points on each forum: here, what it said about contemporary sailing, and there, whether I crossed too close to the other boat. I found the responses to be entertaining and revealing. Some people refused to see my posts in any light other than either trying to impress in order to belong or self-aggrandizement. The idea that I might have posted to make a point or generate a negative reaction is beyond the comprehension of some.

I do appreciate that there was a better legitimate discussion about the issue raised here, rather than simply attacking me personally for my assumed motive in posting. That is one of the reasons I like Sailnet. Some moderation does improve the level of dialogue on a forum and discourages those who simply enjoy attacking others from increasing in number.

I have always divided forum members into two groups: those of us who freely reveal our identity and those who post anonymously. It is fully within any one's rights to post anonymously. I just can't take you too seriously if you do. Some of the anonymous posters are not even real people.

My work as a trial lawyer involves dealing with continual conflict, stress, disagreement, and the use of sharp elbows and knees. I participate in some lawyer forums and, as you might imagine, we go at each other in a no holds barred manner. Nevertheless, the discourse occurs at a higher level, and rarely does anyone resort to name calling and personal attacks. Further, most of us are well beyond the stages of trying to please everyone or to puff up our egos. I enjoy my participation in lawyer forums and find it entertaining and intellectually challenging.

Name calling and personal attacks are the stuff of the elementary school playground. I find it hard to take too seriously. Especially from posters who engage anonymously in gang attacks. So, I wasn't really bothered by it. The notion that I offended a large group was surprising to me, but not that disturbing. What was disturbing is what anonymous personal attacks reveal about human nature. 

I have no animosity toward any one, here or there, and I certainly oppose any form of censorship, banning, or punishment for self-expression. I don't believe I have ever reported any one to a moderator and I would never put someone on "ignore". Every one has a right to the free expression of his or her opinion.


----------



## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

jameswilson29 said:


> ... The idea that I might have posted to make a point or generate a negative reaction is beyond the comprehension of some.


I'll admit that I've been following this thread since its inception, and have read every post. After my one and only foray into attempting to have a polite measured discussion about an issue that strongly divides people that has since been relegated to (and may have even been the reason for the creation of) the PWRG area, I made a conscious decision to try and avoid any threads that weren't positive and friendly. The thread I'm referencing truly brought out the worst in people, and I was simply aghast at how childish and cruel adults could be to each other simply because they didn't agree on something. Even you, Mr. Fuzzy Wombat Mod Man, said some pretty nasty things in that thread, but in fairness to you you did acknowledge it and life moved on. All is well.

This is the first "unfriendly" thread since that disheartening experience that has tempted me to post. So far I've resisted. It's been tough reading. James, you were one of the first folks to be helpful to me back when I started sailing (OK, boat purchasing and repairing... the sailing came a year later) and found this forum. I appreciated your time and the welcome "friending." Smacky, you've been similarly helpful, and I've enjoyed your posts and your website, too. I'm still trying to figure out why folks can't disagree without animosity. I mean, you guys are both intelligent, creative folks with lots to offer.. why waste energy creating BAD feelings?

James, the crux of this whole thing for me lies in the portion of your previous post I quoted above. I'll admit that I am one of the ones who didn't "get" your thread-starting post and, to some degree, I guess I still don't, but that's fine... there's lots I don't get..  . My sense of humor is about as warped and sick as a sense of humor can get; I spent a few years on the road as a full-time musician, if that helps elucidate the depths to which my sense of humor will sink. Sarcasm is one of my favorite forms, as is put-down humor.. but only between friends and said with love. I still miss the humor in your first post, but that's on me.. I'll take your word for it that that was part of your intent.

What I don't understand is why you, or anyone else, would make a post to intentionally "...generate a negative reaction," which, assuming I've interpreted your quote above correctly, may be part of the reason you posted originally.

Everyone's different and finds enjoyment in different things. I have a good friend who truly LOVES conflict. He goes out of his way to alienate people, even his best friends. It's his way of playing "are you tough enough to hang with me," I guess, or something like that. I was talking to him once and he asked me why I wouldn't work with a certain other mutually acquainted musician any more and I told him it because that guy was always arguing with the rest of the band and that I hated conflict. My friend replied, and I quote, "Conflict??! I LOVE that!"  .. at least he's self-aware, eh?

Who knows.. maybe stirring the hornet's nest IS enjoyable. I don't get it, personally.

In any case, James, Smack, Fuzzy, and everyone else.. thanks for all the help the past two years. I'm looking forward to many more on the water AND here when I get confused (which is often).

Best wishes to EVERYONE, and a warm Thanksgiving next week. We have much to be thankful for... including each other.

Barry


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I'll say this. Both threads had me laughing out loud, so I can't say they didn't impact my life in a positive manner.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

bblument said:


> I'll admit that I've been following this thread since its inception, and have read every post. After my one and only foray into attempting to have a polite measured discussion about an issue that strongly divides people that has since been relegated to (and may have even been the reason for the creation of) the PWRG area, I made a conscious decision to try and avoid any threads that weren't positive and friendly. The thread I'm referencing truly brought out the worst in people, and I was simply aghast at how childish and cruel adults could be to each other simply because they didn't agree on something. Even you, Mr. Fuzzy Wombat Mod Man, said some pretty nasty things in that thread, but in fairness to you you did acknowledge it and life moved on. All is well.
> 
> This is the first "unfriendly" thread since that disheartening experience that has tempted me to post. So far I've resisted. It's been tough reading. James, you were one of the first folks to be helpful to me back when I started sailing (OK, boat purchasing and repairing... the sailing came a year later) and found this forum. I appreciated your time and the welcome "friending." Smacky, you've been similarly helpful, and I've enjoyed your posts and your website, too. I'm still trying to figure out why folks can't disagree without animosity. I mean, you guys are both intelligent, creative folks with lots to offer.. why waste energy creating BAD feelings?
> 
> ...


well said Barry...


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> My work as a trial lawyer.... .


No further explanation to your OP needed.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> I view the world of sailing forums differently than many others. I still believe the interesting thing about my video post, both here and on SA, was the strong reactions it generated. That says more about the members who responded than about me.
> 
> Blah, blah, blah, here is how humanity works, blah, blah, blah, I am a licensed psychiatrist, blah, blah, blah, I have a higher purpose, blah, blah, blah.........


That's where you are - and will always be - wrong. All this is squarely about you...unless some member of SN or SA is posting with a GoPro attached to his head and will upload that video to show how awesome he is at typing.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bblument said:


> Smacky, you've been similarly helpful, and I've enjoyed your posts and your website, too. I'm still trying to figure out why folks can't disagree without animosity. I mean, you guys are both intelligent, creative folks with lots to offer.. why waste energy creating BAD feelings?
> 
> Who knows.. maybe stirring the hornet's nest IS enjoyable. I don't get it, personally.


I'll answer this one for myself blu - there is a difference between going up to a hornet's nest and poking it with a stick versus suddenly finding yourself in a hornet's nest and squashing those that are stinging.

In terms of forums, I try to stay on the latter side of things - though I'm not absolutely perfect. In other words, I typically don't seek out people or subjects that I can poke with a stick. I just continually look through the new posts and participate in those I find interesting with my view on things. But wherever I see things that I think are ridiculous or hypocritical or disingenuous or whatever - I'll jump on it and speak my mind very robustly. You'll know exactly where I stand.

As TDW said above, I'm the antithesis of polite when I'm posting in forums. I have no desire to be polite. Not that there's anything wrong with it - but I'd much rather express exactly what I mean exactly the way I mean it than dance around something just to be perceived as polite on a sailing forum. I do find that fun and refreshing.

That said, I'm not really "mean" either...or at least I try not to be. I will ALWAYS robustly challenge your ideas, your comments, your claims, your expectations, your assumptions...ESPECIALLY if they are offered in a "holier-than-thou" or hypocritical way...but I won't get personal. And I try to always keep it laced with humor.

To me, this is not "BAD feelings" as you put it. This is _clarity in discussion_ with some fun and good-natured bluster thrown in. It's honesty.

I think SN is a pub - not a tea room. And as long as you have each others' backs when you leave - it's all good.

That's my view of things.

As to this particular thread, as I mentioned above, it was James' _*public skewering*_ of this poor couple - and sailors like them - across two forums to make *himself* look good that I thought deserved a stick...a very big one. And it seems I was not alone.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I get it - I think everyone gets it.Welcome to the internut. Don't make a mistake in your post (especially if it is a new thread) that leaves you vulnerable to criticism. It's like blood in the water and the sharks WILL come, mainly just because so many other sharks have come before them....... and then your point is lost in the blood bath. James probably didn't mean the things he is accused of, I didn't read it that way , but he left an opening and the rest is, pretty much automatic, unconscious and unstoppable.


----------



## SecondWindNC (Dec 29, 2008)

Pearons?


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> .......As to this particular thread, as I mentioned above, it was James' _*public skewering*_ of this poor couple - and sailors like them........


This is what I find a bit distasteful too. We all enjoy blowing by another sailboat, or hop to, if someone is gaining from the rear.

However, we don't know what that couple was doing aboard their boat, whether someone was being trained, someone was nervous or seasick or they were just trying to enjoy ghosting along. Maybe they were even hooking up!

Fun to pass another boat. Not fun to take it seriously and post them for the world to see.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SecondWindNC said:


> Pearons?


They're fast.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

SecondWindNC said:


> Pearons?


I was surprised it took this long for the spelling police to come out!


----------



## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

smackdaddy said:


> I'll answer this one for myself blu - there is a difference between going up to a hornet's nest and poking it with a stick versus suddenly finding yourself in a hornet's nest and squashing those that are stinging.
> 
> In terms of forums, I try to stay on the latter side of things - though I'm not absolutely perfect. In other words, I typically don't seek out people or subjects that I can poke with a stick. I just continually look through the new posts and participate in those I find interesting with my view on things. But wherever I see things that I think are ridiculous or hypocritical or disingenuous or whatever - I'll jump on it and speak my mind very robustly. You'll know exactly where I stand.
> 
> ...


All points understood, Smack; thanks for taking the time to read and respond. I tend to be very direct in real life, and don't hesitate to speak my mind either.. much to the chagrin of my administrators at times, especially when they're wrong. When writing, I try to be as clear as possible, too. Since there's no visual aspect, i.e., facial expressions or body language, available to help the reader interpret the written text for meaning, it sure seems like some discussions turn much nastier much faster on the 'net than they do face-to-face. Your "pub rather than tea room" analogy is apt; I've never been in a tea room (what the heck IS that anyway? Do they still exist, or does the phrase exist just as an example of propriety?), but I continue to frequent quite a few pubs, and my favorites tend towards the "dives" full of characters rather than martini bars. I love a good face-to-face as much or more than the next guy.. as long as the focus is on trying to communicate one's point to other party with the hopes of changing a viewpoint. When the focus shifts to attack and counter-attack rather than point-counterpoint, it's just not fun anymore.. at least for me. Attack and counter-attack is better left for the gym.. and I enjoy it there VERY much.

Some confessions..

1. As a newbie to sailing, I DO have a slight fear that other sailors are watching me, shaking their heads, and thinking "what an idiot" when they see me out there. I shake it off, of course, but that feeling's there nonetheless. This thread hasn't helped any...

2. As a newbie to sailing, when I DO pass someone else, it feels GREAT. I may even be guilty of having unclean thoughts as to the competency of the person I just passed. I keep those thoughts to myself... pride goeth before the fall, and I don't have far to fall in the sailing world, being one who knows next to nothing at this point.

I'm not taking sides; like I said, I've learned a lot from you and from James, and am glad you're both here. In my experience, if one wants to change another's opinion or actions, the effectiveness towards that goal is inversely proportional to the amount of verbal bludgeoning taking place that can be taken personally. I agree with you, Smack; we should all make our points, and make them strongly if we feel strongly. I still think that can be done without belittling other folks.... whether we're in a tea room, a pub, a bar, a dive, out in the back yard with our friends, or here on SailNet. There's nothing wrong with being polite and friendly. There's a line from a movie that's one of my guilty pleasures (another embarrassing confession); "Roadhouse." In one scene Patrick Swayze is training some rough-neck bouncers how to deal with troublesome customers, and says something along the lines of "When a customer gets in your face, I want you to be nice. Be nice, until it is time to not be nice." I guess we all have different opinions or thresholds as to when it is "time to not be nice." I've got mine, too, but it usually involves threats or harm to my family. Up until then, what the hey... being nice is cheap, and never hurt anyone.

Thanks, man. Best to ya!

Barry


----------



## WGEwald (Jun 2, 2014)

Sal Paradise said:


> I get it - I think everyone gets it.Welcome to the internut. Don't make a mistake in your post (especially if it is a new thread) that leaves you vulnerable to criticism. It's like blood in the water and the sharks WILL come, mainly just because so many other sharks have come before them....... and then your point is lost in the blood bath. James probably didn't mean the things he is accused of, I didn't read it that way , but he left an opening and the rest is, pretty much automatic, unconscious and unstoppable.


If his post wasn't a textbook example of internet trolling, I can't think of a better one.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

WGEwald said:


> If his post wasn't a textbook example of internet trolling, I can't think of a better one.


I disagree. If you want to understand what trolling is, start reading the comments sections of some of the new organizations. For any controversial issue, there are some posters who simply post to irritate the other posters and generate a reaction.

Some issues in sailing will generate a negative reaction. I do not shy away from those issues, despite the fact that they generate a negative reaction. Those issues are worth exploring and discussing, even though some would prefer not to. In fact, the reason they are worth discussing is a segment of the boat owners population would prefer not to discuss them.

Its a free country, you can buy a boat if you wish, you can use it any way you wish (that is legal and ethical).

1. Any one who owns a boat today cannot help but notice that a substantial proportion of them, perhaps a majority, never leave their slips, or never leave their slips on even an occasional basis. Based on my observation, these are generally a certain type of sailboat.

2. Any one who actually sails a boat cannot help but notice that a large proportion of those same kinds of boat really cannot sail well. That may be due to the fact that the boat is too large for them to really sail to its potential, or that people that choose that type of boat really are not interested in sailing, or that people that own that type of boat would be really inconvenienced by actually sailing, and therefore rarely do.

Or, as many of you seem to believe, they are actually fully mentally and physically capable of sailing a 45+ foot boat to its full potential (????), but they choose not to, or don't care.

3. When a 40 year old Craigslist boat with cheap eBay sails passes such a boat so easily that it can circle it, and that sailor does that fairly regularly, that does not necessarily mean the sailor is particularly skillful, but it does lead to a possible conclusion that a certain segment of the population can not sail very well and does not care about sailing.

Again, that is o.k. To me, it is the same as trailering your Harley down to Daytona Beach so you can ride up and down the strip in leathers. You are perfectly free to do that, and I am perfectly free to film it, especially if there is no identifying information and the owners don't care.

The real question is: why are some of you so upset about that *REALITY* in sailing today. Denial, avoidance, pretending, posing, whatever, let's attack the messenger instead of the message.

That is not trolling, that is simple bringing an indisputable issue to the forefront for your reaction. Not every post has to be feel-good happy and wonderful.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

word...


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jameswilson29 said:


> ...The idea that I might have posted to make a point or generate a negative reaction is beyond the comprehension of some...


Actually that idea is well within the comprehension of those of us who see it for what it is: trolling.


jameswilson29 said:


> ...1. Any one who owns a boat today cannot help but notice that a substantial proportion of them, perhaps a majority, never leave their slips, or never leave their slips on even an occasional basis. Based on my observation, these are generally a certain type of sailboat.


You mention this over and over, and seem to apply some condescending value judgement to it. An awful lot of people buy a boat thinking that they will have more available time than they do. They're guilty of nothing more than wishful thinking. Maybe they forgot that their son plays baseball every Saturday. Or that their wife wasn't as eager to sail as they thought. Maybe they didn't get a survey and underestimated how much work it would take to get it into safe condition. Maybe they, or someone they love, had a serious health issue come up. There are dozens of possible reasons, all of them perfectly innocent. But you choose to make fun of them.

As for your questionable choice to bust on these people in the boat that you passed, I find it ironic that you keep harping on your claim that so many people never take their boats out, and then you choose to make fun of someone who is actually taking their boat out and enjoying it.

It's also ironic that you claim that people motor everywhere, yet make fun of someone who is under sail, though apparently not up to what you consider acceptable standards.

I'm not attacking you, James. I'm attacking the childishness of your message. It really does not become you.

[EDIT: James, I enjoy 99% of what you post, so don't take this personally. I've seen you do much better than this. It may be a few months or even a year from now, but I think you'll eventually come to realize that this thread did not enhance your "brand."]


----------



## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

Take Five..

Good points. I definitely fit several of the categories of folks you described who don't get to sail as often as I'd planned on, for several of the reasons you mentioned. We're all doing the best we can with what we have to work with.

Barry


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I can't take pics of boats I pass, because I have a sandwich in one hand and a beer in the other, steering with my foot. I'm going to take a renewed pleasure the next time I pass a 28.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I can't take pics of boats I pass, because I have a sandwich in one hand and a beer in the other, steering with my foot. I'm going to take a renewed pleasure the next time I pass a 28.


The weird thing is - we pass a lot of smaller boats when we're out in the bay, I just never thought of it as a big deal.


----------



## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> The weird thing is - we pass a lot of smaller boats when we're out in the bay, I just never thought of it as a big deal.


Hey, if I see Dawn Treader coming up on us, I'm throwing fuel jugs, dinghy and outboard, extra anchor and chain, 2 weeks worth of provisions, beer, wine, and rum, overboard. Anything else that ain't tied down too (service manuals, books, tools, etc). I'm not making it easy for you to pass me man! You and the boys are gonna have to earn it.  Prolly those solar panels, wind generator, and dodger kills my PHRF rating....

Sorry James. We're a cruising boat, so sure you don't get it.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RTB said:


> Hey, if I see Dawn Treader coming up on us, I'm throwing fuel jugs, dinghy and outboard, extra anchor and chain, 2 weeks worth of provisions, beer, wine, and rum, overboard. Anything else that ain't tied down too (service manuals, books, tools, etc). I'm not making it easy for you to pass me man! You and the boys are gonna have to earn it.  Prolly those solar panels, wind generator, and dodger kills my PHRF rating....
> 
> Sorry James. We're a cruising boat, so sure you don't get it.
> 
> Ralph


If I have a GoPro on my head at the time, please, just slap me with a boathook.


----------



## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

Don't get too close. My wife is an animal with that boat hook....usually beating the heck out of a mooring ball because she can't catch the pennant. Silly girl.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RTB said:


> Don't get too close. My wife is an animal with that boat hook....usually beating the heck out of a mooring ball because she can't catch the pennant. Silly girl.
> 
> Ralph


Heh-heh. It could've been worse, James could have been a Google Glasshole. At least it was a GoPro.

This is my rig...


----------



## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

Your new avatar? lol.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> You mention this over and over, and seem to apply some condescending value judgement to it. An awful lot of people buy a boat thinking that they will have more available time than they do. They're guilty of nothing more than wishful thinking.


What is ironic, then, is that this sentiment is rarely expressed in the boat buying threads.

In fact, a small number of us who join in and urge folks to start small and really learn how to sail, or perhaps, reconsider whether someone should immediately spend a lot of money on sailing, or start off with a big boat, are usually criticized for discouraging sailing.

So, at least be consistent in the message...or do you think it is good for people, particularly novices, to spend lots of money on lessons and gear and buy big boat-show boats they will regret buying because they are rarely used as a sailboat?

Some of us have been urging restraint all along...


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Funny, this just occurred to me. Of the 45ft+ sailboats in our marina, they all leave the dock nearly every weekend or at least for lengthy periods at a time: us, a Swan 45, Hunter 45, Taswell 49, Hallberg Rassy 40 something, Hylas 54, even a 50 something Hinkley. Many of us see each other at sea or the islands quite a bit. So do the <30ft boats that usually just play around in the Bay. It's those in the middle, say 35-40 give or take that seem orphaned. 

Of the stinkpotters, the sport fishing boats seem to go out a lot. None of the others do, other than maybe once for a vacation. The monster stinkpots often have someone aboard, but they arrive, party for a couple of months and leave. That's it.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

When we are around mid-week, we often seen a whole different group than weekends. So those that judge their neighbors usage and only show up themselves on the weekends, probably have no clue.


----------



## WGEwald (Jun 2, 2014)

I think Captain Obnoxo should just get into a legitimate racing program and see how that works for him


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jameswilson29 said:


> What is ironic, then, is that this sentiment is rarely expressed in the boat buying threads.
> 
> In fact, a small number of us who join in and urge folks to start small and really learn how to sail, or perhaps, reconsider whether someone should immediately spend a lot of money on sailing, or start off with a big boat, are usually criticized for discouraging sailing.
> 
> ...


I have been 100% consistent in my message. I've never been one to suggest "bigger is better," and frankly I think there are relatively few here who suggest that to newbies. And while you've been accused of (and have freely admitted to) discouraging people from sailing in a variety of ways, I've never seen anyone criticize you for suggesting a smaller boat to them. I invite you to prove me wrong by posting a quote of someone who criticized you for suggesting a smaller boat.

Here are a few of the things that you _have_ done to discourage novice sailors:

*Mocking others* who don't measure up to some level of skill or experience that you've arbitrarily set. In fact, I think you have unwittingly contributed to the "bigger is better" mentality by belittling as "picnic sailors" those who have never gone out into the ocean. By suggesting that you have to be ocean-going to be a "real sailor," you are denigrating a whole class of small, fun boats as being unworthy of owning.

*Discouraging people from taking sailing classes*, along with paranoid accusations that anyone who recommends a sailing school has commercial incentive for doing so. I personally did not learn in a class, but I was fortunate enough to have a girlfriend whose father was a Navy captain with unlimited free access to a fleet of 16-25' sloops. Not everyone has friends who can teach them to sail, and for those people, taking sailing classes may be the best money they spent. This is especially true if they find out he or she doesn't like it. Yet you continue to rant against lessons with statements like


> ...or do you think it is good for people, particularly novices, to spend lots of money on lessons and gear...


I am frankly perplexed that you would lump lessons and gear together as wasteful expenditures. For a novice, the lessons will usually qualify them to rent or charter, which can defer or avoid buying boats and gear until they're sure they like it. And like I said, if they don't like it, they walk away with the knowledge that they gave it a try and it wasn't for them, and completely avoid wasting money on a boat that they won't want.

I have always advised that smaller boats tend to get sailed more frequently, and the ratio of fun to upkeep is much higher for a smaller boat. I know MANY OTHERS (including big-boat owners) who have suggested the same thing, and have never seen anyone criticized for it. Show me a quote that proves otherwise.

I have also advocated dinghy sailing for many people, especially those who think they want to trailer every time they go out for a daysail. We all know that rigging/derigging a Catalina 25 or even a 22 will suck all the fun out of a daysail - not to mention the costs for a tow-capable vehicle. I owned and sailed a dinghy for 10 years before getting my current 25-footer, and I still sail that dinghy on vacation.

For those who are insistent on buying and want to get on the water quickly, I have advised to try to go smaller/newer ready-to-sail boat instead of an larger/older project boat that might take a season or two to get seaworthy. No first-time boat owner should have to spend his first year or two fixing up an unseaworthy boat.


----------



## sprega (Jun 25, 2002)

WGEwald said:


> I think Captain Obnoxo should just get into a legitimate racing program and see how that works for him


I don't think Captain Obnoxo will be seen in any legit racing programs any time soon, as he would soon find out that his $200 EBay bed sheets really are not up to par and he would have to buy good sails and actually learn how to trim them. At which point the reasonably well sailed 23 ft J70s would still far out sail him and a well sailed old SanJuan 21 would beat him boat for boat.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Ha ha, no. If you think James is going to join a racing program you have missed the point of this thread entirely.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Sal Paradise said:


> Ha ha, no. If you think James is going to join a racing program you have missed the point of this thread entirely.


I love that he posted this same post over with the pitbulls of SA. He's really getting loved tenderly over there. :laugher


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

heres a cheapy question:

where can you get 200 ebay bed sheets? maybe theyll up the sale price of my boat

edit 

thread drift


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

It appears Sal gets it, most of you don't and never will. I have no interest in racing and no need to compete in any formal setting. I certainly recognize I don't have a competitive boat and I don't consider myself to be anything more than a competent sailor. I participated in racing for several years and found it to be uncomfortable and inconvenient.

To those of you who are offended, I could urge you to re-read the entire thread, but I doubt you will ever accept or understand my points and the entertainment value offered.

Some of you go around wanting to be offended by your own dearly held beliefs without questioning those beliefs.

The main message of this thread has evolved into the overreaction of the participants. A few of you have truly gone off the rails. I would enjoy a discussion of the reasons why so many have reacted so strongly to my original post.

When my wife and I are out driving, we often will see someone cut off another driver, usually inadvertently, invading that driver's sense of territory. Sometimes, the wronged driver flips the bird, shouts inside their car, turns red in the face, honks their horn, tailgates the other vehicle and generally overreacts. I would guess that some of you observe this and say, "wow, he really taught him a lesson, he beat him like a baby seal."

I don't usually react when this happens to me, I just slow down to put greater space between me and the car in front of me. If someone tailgates me, I will pull over to the side if it is safe to do so, to allow the other driver to pass. Some drivers overreact to the point of road rage. My wife and I agree that these people are acting out of some kind of inner problems, some kind of inner demons, driving them to attack other people aggressively. I would assume they have some kind of global life functioning problems: no loving relationship, employment problems, emotional problems, etc.

Many of you are just like that driver who overreacts. There was no victim or offended party in my video, unless you imagined one or put yourself in the place of the slow sailor. My observation is there are a lot of sailors who aren't even competent, able to trim their sails. I accept Jon Eisberg's explanation that there is a subgroup of "lifestyle sailors"; that is a nice way to put it, and as a professional, he has to know his potential customers, and other sailors. You should really consider why my post and the video are so upsetting to you. I would suspect if you showed my video to a nonsailor, they would probably say, "So what?" So, why are "sailors", or I should say "listserv members" so upset by it?

That is the real issue. See if you can discuss that intelligently without any personal attacks. I don't think you can.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/176729-simrad-tp30-32-a.html

like this?


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> It appears Sal gets it, most of you don't and never will. I have no interest in racing and no need to compete in any formal setting. I certainly recognize I don't have a competitive boat and I don't consider myself to be anything more than a competent sailor. I participated in racing for several years and found it to be uncomfortable and inconvenient.
> 
> To those of you who are offended, I could urge you to re-read the entire thread, but I doubt you will ever accept or understand my points and the entertainment value offered.
> 
> ...


I don't think YOU can handle getting called out by almost all posters here and every single one over on SA.

As a lawyer, you should understand you have been judged an obnoxious sailor by a jury of your peers.

Yet for some reason, you think every one else doesn't get it.

You're a braggadocio of the first order. But the kicker is, you don't have one hundredth of the experience of many of the members of this an the other forum that are commenting.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

weinie said:


> I love that he posted this same post over with the pitbulls of SA. He's really getting loved tenderly over there. :laugher


Yes, I am crying myself to sleep at night, being calling childish names by people I don't know, who don't know me, is extremely damaging to my delicate psyche....

As a lawyer, I go out of my way to make sure everyone likes me all the time, and, wow, it seems to be working!!!


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

First rule when you find yourself in a hole you can't get out of: Quit digging!


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

weinie said:


> But the kicker is, you don't have one hundredth of the experience of many of the members of this an the other forum that are commenting.


So, please tell me in detail why this should bother me?

I am truly open to knowing why this matters.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE!

"cant we all just get along"

??????????????????????????


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> It appears Sal gets it, most of you don't and never will. I have no interest in racing and no need to compete in any formal setting. I certainly recognize I don't have a competitive boat and I don't consider myself to be anything more than a competent sailor. I participated in racing for several years and found it to be uncomfortable and inconvenient.
> 
> To those of you who are offended, I could urge you to re-read the entire thread, but I doubt you will ever accept or understand my points and the entertainment value offered.
> 
> ...


Oh good lord. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

I had no idea we were talking about "Mother Theresa In A 'Pearons'".

James, give it a rest.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> So, please tell me in detail why this should bother me?
> 
> I am truly open to knowing why this matters.


It obviously doesn't bother you. You're like that one loud drunk person at a party that doesn't realize he's being loud and drunk.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If you can't defend your point in under 100 words, you're probably wrong.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Yeah, I get it James but I also get what everyone else is saying. I think it's either time to admit you effed up and got seriously off track, or just time to lay low. Because this is looking worse all the time.


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> Yeah, I get it James but I also get what everyone else is saying. I think it's either time to admit you effed up and got seriously off track, or just time to lay low. Because this is looking worse all the time.


To put it in a way that he can understand:

James, the cause having been brought on for hearing on a motion for summary judgement, on the grounds that you, the defendant, acted like a dick, and that the facts as have been testified to, and presented by videotaped and witness statements of fact evidence, and presented to the Court, are not in dispute, and the Court having heard said evidence presented, and the Court finding that on said facts and evidence presented, taken in the light most favorable to you the defendant, do not support your defense, and answer to this action, and the Court being of the opinion, that as a matter of law, you did act like a dick, the Court hereby finds said motion for summary judgment, to be well taken, and it is hereby sustained.

Your motion for a rehearing, is overruled.

Your motion for an appeal, is denied.

Summary judgement is rendered. (The Court also feels that res judicata should govern this case as this cause has already been argued, and litigated, regarding the exact same facts and circumstances, and judgment rendered against the defendant in the Court of [CA]. )

All further proceedings to be held consistent with this ruling. So ordered by the Court.

 (Sometimes, there's more than one trial lawyer in the room.)


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

jameswilson29 said:


> Today, I smoked by Beneteau 46 thanks to good trimming
> 
> Why can't these picnic sailors trim their sails?
> 
> ...


Are these the points you would like to be discussed?


----------



## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

It appears someone has made themselves the fool.... and seems to enjoy the title...


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

"What we have here is a failure to communicate.."

I am giving up. Some of you have a reading comprehension problem. I have realized you will never get it.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> "What we have here is a failure to communicate.."
> 
> I am giving up. Some of you have a reading comprehension problem. I have realized you will never get it.


"Some folks you just can't reach...so you get what we had here..."


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> "What we have here is a failure to communicate.."
> 
> I am giving up. Some of you have a reading comprehension problem. I have realized you will never get it.


aaaah guns and roses...


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> aaaah guns and roses...


Know how I know you are a child of the eighties?


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

snap IVE been outed! uh oh


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm a child of the sixties..


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

music and music appreciation is ageless...we should all know that

animals rock btw

now back to being awesome sailors and how picnics suck


----------



## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

jameswilson29 said:


> "What we have here is a failure to communicate.."
> 
> I am giving up. Some of you have a reading comprehension problem. I have realized you will never get it.


Is it dark where your head is, James? Is that your last post....more insults about our reading comprehension? Actually, your insults have been the problem all along, not your lame video (which I strongly doubt insulted anyone). And as you say, "I have realized you will never get it".

Hey, maybe give this one a rest and try gaining back credibility as a helpful, even knowledgeable, SailNet member. Aren't most of us here to help other members, or learn from others that have the answers? But then, what do I know? Personally, if I need information, there are some I seek info from because I've read their posts and learned something. Others, I just ignore, because they post stupid $hit like this. That is the danger with SailNet and any other sailing and/or cruising forums....new guys learning the wrong things from posts they read, because they don't realize that they can't trust what every member posts.

I'm sure you can "man up", and share some wisdom instead of being an A$$HAT! Try harder. Go sailing, clear your head, and forget about this. Oh...and leave the Go-Pro at home.

Ralph


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> snap IVE been outed! uh oh


Anyone except a child of the 80s would've first thought Cool Hand Luke.


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> aaaah guns and roses...


I took a test on the internet as to how old you were based on the music you liked. It said I was 24 (I'm 56).

I love Guns and Roses, Bon Jovi, Nirvana, Social Distortion, Counting Crowes, Green Day, Offspring, etc. I should have been a grunger I guess.


----------



## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

I love Guns n Roses too. And I was born in 1952. Just found out about 6 years ago, I also dig Queensryche. Must have nodded off for a while listening to smooth jazz. Now, I get all the cool music from my 26 year old son. 

Ralph


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Group9 said:


> I took a test on the internet as to how old you were based on the music you liked. It said I was 24 (I'm 56).
> 
> I love Guns and Roses, Bon Jovi, Nirvana, Social Distortion, Counting Crowes, Green Day, Offspring, etc. I should have been a grunger I guess.


jajja

so I GUESS im around 230 since I like frederic chopin


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

weinie said:


> anyone except a child of the 80s would've first thought cool hand luke.


word


----------



## abudoggie (Mar 12, 2014)

Here's my recollection


----------



## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

christian.hess said:


> jajja
> 
> so I GUESS im around 230 since I like frederic chopin


I KNEW I liked this guy!! Amen, Christian. Gotta have Bill Evans easily accessible at all times, too (the pianist, not the saxophonist, although Bill Evans the saxophonist is not without merit either).

Barry


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

RTB said:


> ...Aren't most of us here to help other members, or learn from others that have the answers?...


I don't know about others, but I come here for fun and games, entertainment, relief from tedium and boredom. It gives me an opportunity to practice writing and humor and some greater insight into human behavior. Occasionally, I will try to offer some useful information from my experience sailing, which is not particularly unusual or extraordinary.

The vast majority of threads here are almost entirely hypothetical, imaginary, theoretical and fanciful. They unintentionally provide occasional entertainment value:

"Is Sailing Sexist?"

"Could a Catalina 22 circumnavigate?"

"What's the best bluewater boat under $5,000?"

Although most of the threads could be answered completely with a "who gives a shizzle.." or "are you effing crazy?", they do allow people who want to think about sailing, to pontificate about sailing for endless hours, which must trigger some pleasant brain chemicals for them. Sometimes, all the threads are unappealing to me and a complete waste of time. If so, I go play on other social media outlets, some of which are probably a more profitable use of my time.

There are a few true knowledgeable experts on here whose opinions I value. There are also more than a few experienced, competent sailors who have experiences and helpful information they are willing to share with others. Those few nuggets of valuable information make occasional listserv participation worthwhile.

Finally, I do get business from this listserv, so far, in a value in excess of the original cost of my boat. I would still participate for free, but I appreciate the opportunity to become known by the sailing community (and not as the sweetest and most agreeable raft-up buddy one could imagine).

Again, I appreciate the opportunity to make a point in spite of overreaction and resistance, and this forum does ultimately allow a thorough discussion of opposing ideas, despite the efforts of a few who go off the rails. All too many people who encounter an idea they do not like now launch personal attacks against the messenger, usually with name calling and petty bickering. This has taken the place of debate and discussion in our society. Such is life.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

if I may, I agree with this last post...

not all of us come on here to learn or teach or pontificate or humiliate or whatever, some of us come here to enjoy and participate in convivial conversation.

I have learned some, I have offered advice here and there...hopefully helped some...I havent done much in the way of tutorials or go pro shots or pics and vids but maybe some day...

entertainment, thats a good point..those that read latitude 38 from jail for example are just an example of what james is talking about...the are living vicariously through others...they are getting entertainment.

you can be as active or inactive as you want...however I still beleive that one should be cordial.

in the end I can agree with those on most sides of things, WITHIN REASON...at the least ACCEPT others points of view...that doesnt mean you have to agree with everything evryone says, newbie or old salt, racer or cruisers etc...

what fun would that be?

but just talking about music seemed to relax people a bit as it shows common interests and likes.

I guess there is no need for this thread to go on unless you like to keep arguing or expressing one single point. But that would be james prerogative or the mods.

I will end my participation at least with a little quote from the writings of tenzin ghyatso.

"take the middle path.............the path of the bodhisatva" 

in other words dont become extreme in your views and life...there is no point other than to ruin your inner self and that of others...

peace to all(even those that are extreme! jajaja)


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Steely Dan Bodhisattva 1973 - YouTube


----------



## WGEwald (Jun 2, 2014)

> It gives me an opportunity to practice writing and humor and some greater insight into human behavior.


On the other hand, we may have a window into the mind of a true sociopath.


----------



## sprega (Jun 25, 2002)

Damn Jimmy, I was just checking out the SA thread and now I actually feel sorry for you.


----------



## sugarbird (Dec 23, 2013)

Why do I check in here and SA now and then? Sometimes I ask myself that same question. I pretty much just like sailing, have been doing it a long time, and occasionally see something of interest, or feel like I have something to add to a thread. A teensy bit like walking into a marina bar/pub, you may get to hear an interesting story, pick up a tidbit or two, and maybe tell a tall tale or two. And, just like when I'm in a pub, I rarely invest my precious time and energy jousting with those loudly proclaiming that their opinions are the only ones of any value, braggarts, and buttheads. But that's just me...y'all do what you want!


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Group9 said:


> I took a test on the internet as to how old you were based on the music you liked. It said I was 24 (I'm 56).
> 
> I love Guns and Roses, Bon Jovi, Nirvana, Social Distortion, Counting Crowes, Green Day, Offspring, etc. I should have been a grunger I guess.


I think the test was flawed, given those bands I'd guess you're in the 40-45 range


----------



## WGEwald (Jun 2, 2014)

sprega said:


> Damn Jimmy, I was just checking out the SA thread and now I actually feel sorry for you.


From SA:



> Please do keep in mind that you are talking to a group here that collectively has a ****-ton of offshore miles. This is not SailNet where you can argue for days over the merits of using packing tape and bedsheets to make a new sail


Ouch!


----------



## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

*Found footage*

One of the common complaints about this topic over at SA is that the video is 'boring'.

I was able to piece together snippets from the original video in hopes of livening the thing up a bit.

Here's what I got:






The above video has been removed by me as a result of a threatened law suit via private messaging.


----------



## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

jameswilson29 said:


> I disagree. If you want to understand what trolling is, start reading the comments sections of some of the new organizations. For any controversial issue, there are some posters who simply post to irritate the other posters and generate a reaction.
> 
> Some issues in sailing will generate a negative reaction. I do not shy away from those issues, despite the fact that they generate a negative reaction. Those issues are worth exploring and discussing, even though some would prefer not to. In fact, the reason they are worth discussing is a segment of the boat owners population would prefer not to discuss them.
> 
> ...


looking through dictionary "P" always liked the letter "P"
ok pretentious, pontificating, pious, presumptuous, piss-ant
works for a description


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

*Re: Found footage*



flyingwelshman said:


> One of the common complaints about this topic over at SA is that the video is 'boring'.
> 
> I was able to piece together snippets from the original video in hopes of livening the thing up a bit.
> 
> ...


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: Found footage*



flyingwelshman said:


> One of the common complaints about this topic over at SA is that the video is 'boring'.
> 
> I was able to piece together snippets from the original video in hopes of livening the thing up a bit.
> 
> ...


Oh hell yeah!!










You've just gone viral.


----------



## Rezz (Oct 12, 2012)

*Re: Found footage*



flyingwelshman said:


> One of the common complaints about this topic over at SA is that the video is 'boring'.
> 
> I was able to piece together snippets from the original video in hopes of livening the thing up a bit.
> 
> ...


Please tell me you didn't actually delete the video. I haven't seen it yet!


----------



## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: Found footage*



Resolute_ZS said:


> Please tell me you didn't actually delete the video. I haven't seen it yet!


I have deleted the video from Youtube and all on-line hosts. This is a result of receiving a private message that threatened legal action unless I did so.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

*Re: Found footage*



flyingwelshman said:


> I have deleted the video from Youtube and all on-line hosts. This is a result of a receiving a private message that threatened legal action unless I did so.


Well I guess that is what happens when you mess with an attorney who has no sense of humor.


----------



## Rezz (Oct 12, 2012)

*Re: Found footage*



flyingwelshman said:


> I have deleted the video from Youtube and all on-line hosts. This is a result of receiving a private message that threatened legal action unless I did so.


People can threaten all they want. Nice of you to cowtow to a bully.


----------



## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

*Re: Found footage*



flyingwelshman said:


> One of the common complaints about this topic over at SA is that the video is 'boring'.
> 
> I was able to piece together snippets from the original video in hopes of livening the thing up a bit.
> 
> ...


I saw about the first 30 seconds earlier today when it was still online and decided to come back to it later once I got the turkey stock started for tomorrow, etc. The part that I saw was brilliant and extremely funny, and I am now very disappointed. Much to my chagrin, I just read that legal action has since been threatened and the video has been removed. James, up until now I haven't taken sides, but doesn't threatening legal action against someone for having some humorous fun at your expense strike you as even the LEAST bit hypocritical? I mean, isn't that exactly what you did with your original post re/ the sailor of the Beneteau? True, we don't know that sailor's name, but so what. By your own hand, you've written that you don't take much stock in anonymity and prefer for folks to use their own names. Had you given that anonymous sailor the opportunity to speak with you personally, I'm sure he would have been willing to use his name. You don't seem to respect anonymous posters; why is it OK in your book to make fun of a someone who is unwittingly anonymous? Since you never introduced yourself to that sailor, are you not anonymous to that "injured party?" Does that not introduce even a bit of lack of self-respect in you, since you don't respect anonymity?

Did you not state that part of the reason you made the post was for your own entertainment purposes so you could watch the lesser folks of the sailing world squabble amongst themselves? My words, not yours, but there's no denying the accuracy of that interpretation of your post.

Make up your mind. Is it OK to have fun at other people's expense, or not? If you get to enjoy making fun of other folks, then you MUST expect the same in return.

I, for one, would LOVE to see the entire "enhanced" version of the video, and would definitely not view it maliciously.. I just thought the portion I saw was creative and funny. James... you surprised me and disappointed me on this one, but I guess that doesn't matter. I'm just another faceless denizen on the internet who's here to be observed by you for your entertainment, right? That's sad, and that attitude and lack of respect for others is THE main reason I do not, and will not, participate in Facebook, Twitter, or other forms of "social" media.

Barry (yes, it's my real name, and has been for 54 years)

A Happy Thanksgiving to all.


----------



## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

So, it is OK for young Jimmy to Go-Pro and make fun of the lad in the Bene... but when someone makes fun of Jimmy out comes the threat of legal action?

Jim, cowboy up, dude.


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Sadly I didn't get to see the video before it was deleted but yes Wilson also threatened legal action against Sailnet. Whether he had a leg to stand on or not I have no idea but on a purely personal level it sure seems rather petty and not a little pathetic really.

Welshman made his own decision to remove the vid. We had no idea he had also been threatened but it was his own decision and one can hardly blame him for not wanting to get into a legal bunfight. There was no SailNet intervention though what Admin would have made of the threat I don't know.


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

*Re: Found footage*



flyingwelshman said:


> I have deleted the video from Youtube and all on-line hosts. This is a result of receiving a private message that threatened legal action unless I did so.


Bwaaaaa haaaa haaa haaaaahaaaa!

This thread JUST NOW got really funny. OMG, that's just rich!

And the best part is that this is absolutely an invitation for people to make MORE VIDEOS! Bring 'em, people! You've spent enough time with your family, leave the Thanksgiving table and make some funny videos.


----------



## WGEwald (Jun 2, 2014)

People are surprised by what a sociopath does - - that surprises me.


----------



## Finnsail (Oct 29, 2014)

I've worked with enough lawyers to know that many of them suffer from severe narcissistic personality disorders. Just google for the symptoms list and see how many of these have been exhibited in James' posts. His last reaction fits right in…

A fish doesn't know it's wet…


----------



## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Looks like jiimmy got booted from SA....


----------



## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

jorgenl said:


> Looks like jiimmy got booted from SA....


Frankly, threatening other members with lawsuits sounds like a bootable offence to me.

Any takers?


----------



## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

jorgenl said:


> Looks like jiimmy got booted from SA....


Wait? You can get booted from SA?


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

mr_f said:


> Wait? You can get booted from SA?


That's what I was thinking, but I guess they don't like it when you threaten to sue them....



> I spoke to this douche nozzle after he threatened to sue SA earlier for some youtube video that one of you posted. He doesn't care that the DMCA prevents exactly this, he doesn't care that the law would subject him to severe sanctions if he did sue on this basis - typical lawyer, I guess.
> 
> I counsel you all to stay away from this psycho, and his sad, pathetic videos. There's nothing worse than a bottom-feeding lawyer with nothing to do with his time.
> 
> ...


Ouch. Harsh words.


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

CalebD said:


> Frankly, threatening other members with lawsuits sounds like a bootable offence to me.Any takers?


Would that it were Caleb, would that it were.

Then again maybe it is.

The question is should we ? His stupid video would still be here for all to see and mock but we'd not have to put up with his pathetic defence. Tempting, very tempting indeed.


----------



## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

tdw said:


> Would that it were Caleb, would that it were.
> 
> Then again maybe it is.
> 
> The question is should we ? His stupid video would still be here for all to see and mock but we'd not have to put up with his pathetic defence. Tempting, very tempting indeed.


Ya got my vote for the boot....:batter


----------



## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: Found footage*



Resolute_ZS said:


> People can threaten all they want. Nice of you to cowtow to a bully.


Screw you!
I come here for fun


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

I think that's the second poster that posted on both sites who got booted from SA after threatening to sue!


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

*Re: Found footage*



flyingwelshman said:


> Screw you!
> I come here for fun


You think maybe he's having a wee sulk cos he didn't get to see the vid ?


----------



## WGEwald (Jun 2, 2014)

jorgenl said:


> Looks like jiimmy got booted from SA....


He doesn't deserve any fellowship here either. Just MHO.

Booted from SA? Really? Those guys are all like feces-throwing chimps and they banned him...amazing.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The only thing that I found unjust about the vid was seeing his kid in it. The OP, otherwise, had it coming. He ridiculed a broad swath of sailors and it came back at him. Live and die by the sword.


----------



## Rezz (Oct 12, 2012)

*Re: Found footage*



flyingwelshman said:


> Screw you!
> I come here for fun


No worries, man - Just angry at the bully 



tdw said:


> You think maybe he's having a wee sulk cos he didn't get to see the vid ?


Possibly...


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

He may end up as the Dominic Barbara of the sailing world.:laugher


----------



## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

If a guest in my house threatened to sue me, or sue one of my other guests, he would no longer be welcome in my house.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Alright people....its time to quiet this down a bit. 

For what it is worth, it is not a banable offense to threaten via a private message to defend a copyright on a video that an individual produced, and while it may be question whether that defense would have merit due to laws which allow fair usage for comedic purposes, that issue is between James and FW. 

And while that is not a banable offense within the forum rules, making personal attacks is explicitly forbidden under forum rules. Implying that someone is a 'sociopath' or has 'narcissistic personality disorders', or calling someone a 'bully' certainly would appear to cross that line. 

Please don't add to the Moderator's to-do list. 

Thank you, And a very happy Thanksgiving Day to anyone in a country which celebrates Thanksgiving Day tomorrow,
Jeff


----------



## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

To clarify one point: I did see the new video. I thought I was funny and not at all negative to anyone, least of all James. It was just silly. 

I got interested and looked at a LOT of James' posts on this website. He seems like a nice guy, a bit opinionated, but so are a lot of us, and yes, he does get a bit carried away on his generalizations. There are a lot of good people who post on this, and other nets. There are a lot of subjects or ideas that may seem unimportant to him, or any given person, but they have value to others. James might benefit by contemplating this.

He obviously loves to sail and has had a lot of positive interactions on this web site. I think he brought a lot of this on himself, but enough is enough. A lawyer threatening to sue? Sounds a bit like a cliche, or a joke. Coops, where are you when we need you? (Three lawers walk into a bar and one says, "I'm gonna sue". "Sue who?" the others ask. The bartender - a beautiful woman - says, Hey I'm Sue, and no you aint!!) 

Personally, I want to take a time-out on this guy. Let it rest and allow him to settle back, perhaps reflect on all this, and allow him some time to get perspective. I would like to look forward to his, and our, participation in SailNet conversations as a positive, interesting, and fun interaction.

We've had plenty of oportunity to examine the issues brought up by the original post, all the way up to the present time. Any more, and it just feels like I'd be beating up on this guy. I don't want to do that. For this reason, I'm going to request that the moderators stop this thread. James, best wishes to you for a Happy Thanksgiving.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Poor form. Yet again.

I see a pattern here.


----------



## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

One reaps what one sows...


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Reality is if you want to dish it out you need to be able to take it when the barbs come back at you. Wilson obviously has a problem with that but hey, thats his problem he has to learn to deal with it. In the meantime he has taken quite a beating both here and over at SA. There comes a point where kicking a beaten dog has no purpose. 

So, further discussion in this thread is really somewhat pointless so I think we'll draw the curtains. If Mr Wilson wishes to say anything in his defence then he can PM me or one of the other mods and we might reopen the thing for a right of reply.


----------

