# Sailboat without a mast



## pedalsteel (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm new to this forum. Am planning to purchase a used 30' sailboat but I'm not interested in sailing. I would like to remove the mast except for about 8 feet for antenna mounting. Would like to do the great loop and not have to worry about a mast, also very economical cruising. Would removing the mast as described have any ill effects on the vessel?? Thanks Al.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

no might actually balance it more. you plan on putting a bigger or more powerfull motor in? bigger fuel tank? sailboat are made to sail and not to motor 100% of the time.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

No, there's no reason why you can't remove the mast and just motor. Plenty of people transport sailboats in that manner.

However, sailboats are designed to sail. If all I wanted was to motor, I'd personally look at a trawler. You'll get a lot more comfortable of a boat if you get one that is designed to be motored.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Of course, a sailboat is very unlikely to have as much internal volume and room for stores as a power boat of the same length, and sawing off the mast will deprive the boat of the ability to steady its motion via the sails or to save money by sailing. 
-- And, cruising sailboats of that size usually have much more of a displacement hull design than powerboats and don't have room to install a much bigger engine, so a mast-less traditional sailboat would become a slow powerboat without the option of having a big engine to get out of trouble. 
-- Also, you'd probably be paying to motor around with a big heavy lead or iron keel that isn't doing much to earn its deep, and which would restrict you from entering shallow water. (You could maybe saw off and sell a lead keel for good money, but then your boat would be even less stable.) 
-- And powerboaters and sailors would probably both be suspicious of a boat that doesn't know which side it's on.
But, as "they" say, your sea miles may vary.

PS: Better than sawing off the mast would be saving it on land somewhere safe, so as to preserve a sailing option as well as the boat's resale value, or perhaps selling it -- the mast is worth a lot more as a mast than as some sort of hokey antenna support or whatever.


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm curious, why would you want a sailboat to motor with? Not that there is anything wrong it but it is somewhat counter-intuitive.

Brad
s/v KIVALO


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

A 35' sailboat with a Beta 16 diesel like and old C&C 35 I gets in the 14 MPG range in real life as i have been racing on one the last 5 years and we only keep a 10 gallon fuel tank 

That being said there is NOTHING more rocky and uncomfortable than a sailboat without sails


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

I read a piece on Fuel mileage Trawler v Sailboat, same trip same time of the year, in the End the Trawler spent 900% more then the Sailboat on Fuel and got the same mileage.

You might find a motor-sailor that you can drop the mast from and install a 16' 4x4 as your antenna mount, Also your radar reflector, Steaming Light, Anchor Light ,cross bar for flags and Deck lights and it will be easy to drop if you need to get under something very low. Then when you get back you can put the mast back on and sell it . 

Best of luck on your Trip, it is a Trip i would love to make myself. Fair Winds


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

pedalsteel said:


> I'm new to this forum. Am planning to purchase a used 30' sailboat but I'm not interested in sailing. I would like to remove the mast except for about 8 feet for antenna mounting. Would like to do the great loop and not have to worry about a mast, also very economical cruising. Would removing the mast as described have any ill effects on the vessel?? Thanks Al.


If you're serious, and I have my doubts. I would recommend that even though you don't want to sail, you should leave the mast on the boat. If you are planning on passing under bridges that don't open, it would be possible and certainly more sensible to set up the mast to lower when you need to.

You don't have to sail it, but leave the mast on the boat. It will roll your guts out if you remove the spar.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Buy a small trawler.. that's what it's designed to do. Sailboats (at least keelboats) without their rigs tend to be overly stable and will have a snappy, uncomfortable motion due to the loss of the inertia of the rig itself, never mind the stabilizing effect of the sails.

A small 'chugger' will have more volume, likely, and would be being used as intended.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I'd get a sail boat that was small enough to lower and raise the mast by myself to not worry about the bridges, OR, as mentioned, a trawler style, possibly a pilot house motor sailor! I'd probably go with a trawler before a MS myself.

marty


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

Removing the mast will increase rolling. The mast acts like a pendulum and decreases rolling. either keep the mast or buy a motor yacht. 

A sailing yacht without a mast is not a good vision for the viewers also.


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## AncientTech (Jun 16, 2012)

A good many people have been throwing out the alternative of a trawler instead of a mastless sailboat and if you are to go that route I do have a few words of caution.

So sit right back and you'll hear a tale, a tale of a fateful trip, That started from a tropic port, aboard a tiny ship. The mate was a mighty sailin' man, the Skipper brave and sure. Five passengers set sail that day for a three hour tour...a three hour tour. The weather started getting rough, the tiny ship was tossed. If not for the courage of the fearless crew the trawler would be lost.

So you see, if you are going to get a trawler instead you will also be required to get a fearless crew to ensure your safety thus making the trawler choice very expensive. I would opt out for the smaller sailboat with a stepable mast instead.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

All good points above that I won't repeat. I will add that the mast is a pricey item and destroying it will seriously devalue the boat. Do you plan to flush that money down the drain? You will not be able to sell a sailboat without a mast, as you are the one and only I've ever heard of being interested in one. Replacing it could be a seriously higher percentage of the boat's value than you might think.


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## AncientTech (Jun 16, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> All good points above that I won't repeat. I will add that the mast is a pricey item and destroying it will seriously devalue the boat. Do you plan to flush that money down the drain? You will not be able to sell a sailboat without a mast, as you are the one and only I've ever heard of being interested in one. Replacing it could be a seriously higher percentage of the boat's value than you might think.


Excellent point, as an example say you have a 25/26ft boat either a Columbia or a Pearson. If you are *lucky* you will be able to find a replacement mast for $3000. In some cases that will be what you spent on the boat in the first place. Get a bigger boat and the price goes up drastically.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

"Sailboat without a mast" is not a 'Sailboat'


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

MobiusALilBitTwisted said:


> I read a piece on Fuel mileage Trawler v Sailboat, same trip same time of the year, in the End the Trawler spent 900% more then the Sailboat on Fuel and got the same mileage.


I think you're right that in general most any trawler is going to be less fuel efficient than a sailboat. But I am sure that if you get creative in looking around, you can find a little trawler that does remarkably well on fuel. And any trawler is going to be so much more comfortable and easier to motor full time than a sailboat.

For example, quick google search came up with this nifty looking 21 foot trawler.



> In the 31 days, we have traveled 3,977 miles and used 3,184 liters of fuel [841 gallons, or 4.7 miles per gallon]," says Kinard, who spoke to Soundings after arriving in France. "For this kind of navigation, this went exactly as I planned.


Tiny trawler crosses Atlantic


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I love posts like these. It's akin to asking _"I'm thinking of buying a hammer, and using it to install wood screws, what do you all think of this?"_

Dude, buy the proper tool for your task instead of trying to (poorly) adapt the wrong tool to your intended task. Sailboats _with_ their masts, often motor uncomfortably. I can't imagine doing a long trip without the mast.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Ditto what Bubblehead just said. Buying a sailboat to motor around with really does not make any sense at all.


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

I'm not sure what the benefit the OP sees in a sailboat over a power boat? If it's just cheap transportation, get an under powered power boat. Throw a 12 hp yanmar in it or something.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I love posts like these. It's akin to asking _"I'm thinking of buying a hammer, and using it to install wood screws, what do you all think of this?"_
> 
> Dude, buy the proper tool for your task instead of trying to (poorly) adapt the wrong tool to your intended task. Sailboats _with_ their masts, often motor uncomfortably. I can't imagine doing a long trip without the mast.


Absolutely...

In addition, it's a pity these forums don't have some sort of software to prevent the initiation of such discussions without including at least some hint of the sort of BUDGET the poster has in mind... (grin) Unbelievable, how consistently these sort of "Which boat?" inquiries omit the single most important consideration in soliciting recommendations from strangers...

If I was looking to do the Great Loop on the cheap, I'd have a look at something like this Albin 27... Nice little boat, with a great engine for such a trip...

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1852&url=


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

In fairness, the OP asked a very narrow question which was overlooked by most, who just critiqued the overall idea (including me, but after giving my opinion on the question). He wasn't looking for feedback on "which boat"-- only



> Would removing the mast as described have any ill effects on the vessel?


Of course, nothing wrong with giving advice beyond that which is solicited. It's often helpful.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

pedalsteel said:


> Would removing the mast as described have any ill effects on the vessel?? Thanks Al.


Al,

I'll take a stab at giving a concise response:

- If you mean "will removal of the rig permanently damage the boat," then no.
- If you mean "will removal of the rig negatively effect it's seaworthiness," then yes.
- If you mean "will removal negatively effect the boat's value," it certainly will.

The first and third bullets above are pretty much self explanatory.

The middle one's the kicker.

A well designed sailboat's all about bringing opposing forces into balance. Take part of that design away, and the resulting imbalance will require you to make many compromises. I can tell you from personal experience that you'll find a rig-less keel boat to be a handful in even moderate conditions. And don't think that just because you are going to be in near-shore or inland waters you will be immune -- any large body of water with sufficient fetch will develop sea states that need to be respected.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

caberg said:


> In fairness, the OP asked a very narrow question which was overlooked by most, who just critiqued the overall idea (including me, but after giving my opinion on the question). He wasn't looking for feedback on "which boat"-- only
> 
> Of course, nothing wrong with giving advice beyond that which is solicited. It's often helpful.


I did address his specific question- I said that the boat would ride uncomfortably. Removing most of the mast would harm the riding capabilities of the boat. That's why I suggested that he buy the proper tool for the job.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

denverd0n said:


> Ditto what Bubblehead just said. Buying a sailboat to motor around with really does not make any sense at all.


Have seen a lot of people happily drop the stick to cruise the canals in Ontario. My slip neighbours just took their Bayfield 25 from Simcoe to Georgian Bay (they did bring the stick with).

But I have seen sailboats cruising the Rideau Canal without the stick - guess they left it at home.


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## trk2 (Jun 9, 2012)

Has anyone actually experienced being aboard a sailboat with no mast? I've moved several sailboats between harbors for winter storage without masts, and the boats were all more stable without a mast. I think many people are assuming a sailboat without a mast behaves the same as a sailboat without any sails up and it's completely different. But this is all based on personal and a rather limited selection, but wide ranging type of boats (from a 27' sloop to a 58' hermaphrodite brig).


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

trk2 said:


> Has anyone actually experienced being aboard a sailboat with no mast? I've moved several sailboats between harbors for winter storage without masts, and the boats were all more stable without a mast. I think many people are assuming a sailboat without a mast behaves the same as a sailboat without any sails up and it's completely different. But this is all based on personal and a rather limited selection, but wide ranging type of boats (from a 27' sloop to a 58' hermaphrodite brig).


Trk,

Yes. I've done it twice: Once through the Erie Canal (from Catskill, NY to Tonawanda, NY); and once from Holland, MI to Mobile, AL. Both times, the mast was stowed horizontally above deck.

My initial thought was that with our 8800# of ballast in the keel, we'd be more stable; this was not the case.

In dead flat conditions, it's quite an enjoyable ride.

However, once the usual problems (pb wakes, chop, quartering or abeam seas, etc) come up then the boat's motion gets dicey.

As counter intuitive as it sounds, having the weight aloft really helps dampen the roll.


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

PorFin said:


> As counter intuitive as it sounds, having the weight aloft really helps dampen the roll.


Not really. The keel acts like a pendulum without the weight aloft since there's nothing to slow it down.

The builder of one of mine recommends pulling up the lead centerboard if the sails are not full to prevent the pendulum effect.


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## k_p_m (Aug 6, 2012)

My guess is that the OP asked after having searched around some great loop sites. This being the one that stood out to me.

Choosing your Great Loop boat.

I would make the assumption he wants to take his time, enjoy the sights, and motor when there is nice weather, and think the answers should come from that viewpoint.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

caberg said:


> In fairness, the OP asked a very narrow question which was overlooked by most, who just critiqued the overall idea (including me, but after giving my opinion on the question). He wasn't looking for feedback on "which boat"-- only
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good point, you're right, of course...

However, I think it certainly would be helpful if the OP had offered some more specificity than simply "a used sailboat"... Giving at least a hint of size or budget might influence the sort of reply I'd be inclined to give...

If his idea of a "used sailboat" is something akin to a Catalina 27, for example, I'd strongly advise against such a plan... If his budget might allow for something more substantial like a Fisher motorsailer, however, or maybe a H-R Rasmus, that could be a whole different ballgame, such boats could be considered to be reasonably suitable for doing the Loop sans the rig...


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

There are all kinds of concessions made in sailboats to make them sailboats that will sail well that are unnecessary in a power boat. Many of those concessions make for a kind of crappy boat, unless you're sailing. Narrow sterns, less cabin for less windage, small ports in case you get rolled, a cockpit in the back instead of a nice deck to fish from, and many others that I'm too tired to list. I think a powerboat makes a better powerboat.
It's doable, sure, but you're making compromises in comfort to gain nothing. Plus you'll have to answer a million dumb questions.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

k_p_m said:


> My guess is that the OP asked after having searched around some great loop sites. This being the one that stood out to me.
> 
> Choosing your Great Loop boat.


Hmmm, I certainly hope no one considering doing the Loop in a cruising sailboat is taking these numbers from that link seriously:



> What you may not know is that the design of the sailboat's displacement hull makes it the very most economical vessel on the water. Think about it!
> 
> Sailboats are designed to move easily through the water in the slightest breeze. As a result, it requires a very minimum amount of horse power to move these vessels through the water.
> 
> ...


This guy is dreaming...


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

There are PLENTY of older SMALL diesel powered Albin Trawlers like the 24' aft cabin that have huge room for the size and sip fuel


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, I certainly hope no one considering doing the Loop in a cruising sailboat is taking these numbers from that link seriously:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL -- Jon's spot on. A 36' sailboat, 25hp engine, several "mph" over hull speed, all while sipping fuel? That guy's anatomically challenged (at least as far as elbows and rectums go...)


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

Yeah that guy is full of it. A sailboat is designed to slip through the water CARRYING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF BALLAST UNDER THE WATER TO COUNTERBALANCE THE FORCE ON THE SAILS! Oh, and then there's the dragging a keel around under the water so you don't go sideways part too. All that stuff under the water creates drag. We all know that.
That's why hydrofoils are faster, almost nothing in the water.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

PorFin said:


> LOL -- Jon's spot on. A 36' sailboat, 25hp engine, several "mph" over hull speed, all while sipping fuel? That guy's anatomically challenged (at least as far as elbows and rectums go...)


My 35' sailboat has a 35hp engine. On the motor we can do 5 knots at about .3 gallons per hour. At 6 knots, we burn about .5 gallons an hour. We don't routinely motor faster than this, but top speed through the water is about 6.8 knots on the engine. I've not kept meticulious notes on fuel consumption, so these figures are estimates. Is this about in line with what others are exeriencing or are my estimates off?


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## k_p_m (Aug 6, 2012)

johnnyquest37 said:


> My 35' sailboat has a 35hp engine. On the motor we can do 5 knots at about .3 gallons per hour. At 6 knots, we burn about .5 gallons an hour. We don't routinely motor faster than this, but top speed through the water is about 6.8 knots on the engine. I've not kept meticulious notes on fuel consumption, so these figures are estimates. Is this about in line with what others are exeriencing or are my estimates off?


I too am curious what peoples burn rates really are. I know thats not the point of sailing, but some of you guys must keep track?


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

> having the weight aloft really helps dampen the roll.





Sublime said:


> Not really.


PorFin is exactly right. It's not debatable. A sailboat without a mast is going to roll your guts out in a seaway. If you doubt this, you simply haven't ever experienced it. 
I pull masts out of boats all the time. When walking around on deck after we pull the stick, there is a definite, noticeable difference every time. Especially on smaller boats.

Except with multihulls. I don't notice much of a difference there.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

pedalsteel said:


> I'm new to this forum. Am planning to purchase a used 30' sailboat but I'm not interested in sailing. I would like to remove the mast except for about 8 feet for antenna mounting. Would like to do the great loop and not have to worry about a mast, also very economical cruising. Would removing the mast as described have any ill effects on the vessel?? Thanks Al.


I had to take the mast out of my wooden boat because of extensive rot/wood damage necessitating the removal of the keel as well.

Knothead is right. It will roll in an AWFUL motion that you will hate if you take the mast out. The hull shape of sailboats more resemble a canoe or kayak than a barge. Powerboats roll more slowly (read more comfortably) than sailboat hulls. The only thing that makes the motion of the sailboat roll comfortable is the weight of the mast far from the center of the roll.

Every seen ice skaters do spins? If they bring their arms close they spin quickly, if they spread them out they spin slowly. Same with your mast. If you remove that weight then all the weight in the boat is close to the center of the roll and every roll from every wave/wake will be head-snappingly fast. I've tried it both ways in the same boat. You will hate it.

On the other hand, if you leave the stick in place life will be more comfortable, you have the option of sailing if you choose, and your boat will retain resale value.

MedSailor


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

tommays said:


> There are PLENTY of older SMALL diesel powered Albin Trawlers like the 24' aft cabin that have huge room for the size and sip fuel


Yes. The Albin 25 is what you want. Check it out here:
http://www.jonesboatyard.co.uk/documents/Albin-Manual.pdf

Oh, as an aside, in addition to being the best boat choice for what you want to do, there is a GREAT technical discussion about roll and comfort and where the weight is on page 5-6 of the above document. They recommend adding weight HIGHER UP to create a more comfortable motion and the physics behind why is explained well. It addresses the discussion in this thread nicely and is worth a read I think.

Medsailor


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

That's like trying to buy a Pinto and use it as a Jeep.

Just ain't gonna work, and enough people have told you why. The more frightening question should be how you're about to undertake a great and expensive adventure without doing the most basic groundwork to understand what you are getting into.

"Buy a cheap trawler" also does not mean "buy an old wood boat from the 1940's" because that can be a disaster too. Really, do some research, and if you don't do a lot of research, try to understand that the reason people don't do unconventional things (like butcher a sailboat) is because there usually are some damn good reasons for doing things the conventional way. Read up.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

A dismasted sailboat (keelboat) will be adversely affected. This is a well-established fact as discovered and confirmed by some of the leading minds in sailing while investigating the Fastnet '79 disaster. Think of a metronome. Now remove the counterweight and cut the long stem off. With only the lower pendulum, that thing wiggles back and forth in maniacal fashion. Basically the same principle. The mast and rigging weigh less than the ballast, but exert a leveraging force to slow the motion against the force of the ballast. The effect will vary with each design, but the change is a fact.


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## DocParty (Feb 14, 2013)

pedalsteel said:


> I'm new to this forum. Am planning to purchase a used 30' sailboat but I'm not interested in sailing. I would like to remove the mast except for about 8 feet for antenna mounting. Would like to do the great loop and not have to worry about a mast, also very economical cruising. Would removing the mast as described have any ill effects on the vessel?? Thanks Al.


I have been thinking about this same thing for a year. I've owned every type of vessel and I can say without exception a sailboat has more room in it than a power boat. My goal is to buy one and have the keel removed so that I have a smooth hull bottom. Without sails there will be no need for it or any ballast since loading up the boat with basic supplies will be sufficient. I'm not heading out for a long cruise or week long trip. Just great time on the water for a week at a time on Texas lakes. It needs to be able to be towed which is another reason I have decided to remove the keel. Looked at MacGreggors and they would be great but too expensive. I'm hoping to get one from a marina that has had to confiscate it due to non-paid slip fees and have them strip it of rigging and cut the keel off. I'll then trailer it to a fiberglass shop to have the bottom repaired from the keel removal and a new bottom job. Then it's off to my covered shop to start re-doing it from stem to stern. Keeping it simple will make it more user friendly. Motor will be a 40 hp outboard with steering cables and throttle/trans. I'm going to use a 'cajun' style stick steering so it's not in the way. That's my current thought.
What else can anyone offer me as I get closer to doing this?


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## DocParty (Feb 14, 2013)

seabreeze_97 said:


> A dismasted sailboat (keelboat) will be adversely affected. This is a well-established fact as discovered and confirmed by some of the leading minds in sailing while investigating the Fastnet '79 disaster. Think of a metronome. Now remove the counterweight and cut the long stem off. With only the lower pendulum, that thing wiggles back and forth in maniacal fashion. Basically the same principle. The mast and rigging weigh less than the ballast, but exert a leveraging force to slow the motion against the force of the ballast. The effect will vary with each design, but the change is a fact.


Maybe in big water, but on a Texas lake on a generally calm day, tooling around the place and fishing. It would not produce any ill effects IMHO.


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## DocParty (Feb 14, 2013)

sww914 said:


> There are all kinds of concessions made in sailboats to make them sailboats that will sail well that are unnecessary in a power boat. Many of those concessions make for a kind of crappy boat, unless you're sailing. Narrow sterns, less cabin for less windage, small ports in case you get rolled, a cockpit in the back instead of a nice deck to fish from, and many others that I'm too tired to list. I think a powerboat makes a better powerboat.
> It's doable, sure, but you're making compromises in comfort to gain nothing. Plus you'll have to answer a million dumb questions.


I have been in many MacGregors and under power or anchored off (without sails even being on the boat, mast removed as well) the boat operates just like a powerboat. I think some of the comments are made by purists of sailing which is okay but todays MacGregors can and do work perfectly under sail and pulling a skier with out board motor. So I kinda gotta take a lot of the discontent with a cup of salt.


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## DocParty (Feb 14, 2013)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I love posts like these. It's akin to asking _"I'm thinking of buying a hammer, and using it to install wood screws, what do you all think of this?"_
> 
> Dude, buy the proper tool for your task instead of trying to (poorly) adapt the wrong tool to your intended task. Sailboats _with_ their masts, often motor uncomfortably. I can't imagine doing a long trip without the mast.


Lots of info here is foolish. You folks ever ride on a MacGregor, both under sail and under power pulling a skier? I have. It operates perfectly under either set up.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Might be easier to get a centerboard boat and a pair of wire cutters than remove a keel. Put boat in 6 feet of water, cut centerboard cable, remove pivot bolt and presto, ya got an unballasted sailboat hull.


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## DocParty (Feb 14, 2013)

capttb said:


> Might be easier to get a centerboard boat and a pair of wire cutters than remove a keel. Put boat in 6 feet of water, cut centerboard cable, remove pivot bolt and presto, ya got an unballasted sailboat hull.


Great advice if you find a sailboat that has such and meets whatever criteria you may have laid out. Swing keel's are easy to remove.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

There are also purpose built small 'trawlers' that were designed for this sort of thing that would do the job as well if not better, without having to 'butcher' anything.

North Sea 26, Davidson 'Chugger', Albin 25 to name a few. These will have similar accommodations, likely a slightly bigger powerplant and would be working as designed, not a modified misfit....


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

This seems like an appropriate thread to post my latest "find". 

1973 Columbia sailboat/pilothouse cruiser


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

DocParty said:


> I have been thinking about this same thing for a year. I've owned every type of vessel and I can say without exception a sailboat has more room in it than a power boat. My goal is to buy one and have the keel removed so that I have a smooth hull bottom. Without sails there will be no need for it or any ballast since loading up the boat with basic supplies will be sufficient. I'm not heading out for a long cruise or week long trip. Just great time on the water for a week at a time on Texas lakes. It needs to be able to be towed which is another reason I have decided to remove the keel. Looked at MacGreggors and they would be great but too expensive. I'm hoping to get one from a marina that has had to confiscate it due to non-paid slip fees and have them strip it of rigging and cut the keel off. I'll then trailer it to a fiberglass shop to have the bottom repaired from the keel removal and a new bottom job. Then it's off to my covered shop to start re-doing it from stem to stern. Keeping it simple will make it more user friendly. Motor will be a 40 hp outboard with steering cables and throttle/trans. I'm going to use a 'cajun' style stick steering so it's not in the way. That's my current thought.
> What else can anyone offer me as I get closer to doing this?


Easy now, put down the chainsaw. I can't think of a simpler way to to get a power boat. you could do it the hard way and buy a powerboat and add the cajun steering then you could use it to catch Gators. 
most of us here on SN are trying the best we can to keep the mast up. 
Please take this discussion to the Sailless boat forum


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

DocParty said:


> Lots of info here is foolish. You folks ever ride on a MacGregor, both under sail and under power pulling a skier? I have. It operates perfectly under either set up.


No, it operates _marginally_ in either setup. The Mac is the "spork" of boats. It does everything mediocre, and nothing very well.

Your definition of "perfect" is merely that it is capable of motoring and sailing at all. Yes, I've sailed aboard the Mac. I've also sailed rings around two of them in my Pearson 30. If you had any _sailing_ experience, you'd know that although it sails, it doesn't sail all that well.

I'm not really sure what your point is here. You've made your decision, you're not looking for advice. You're looking for validation. Do whatever you like, but don't look at us for validation. Really, all you're seeking is a free beer-drinking platform on the water.

Your decision to turn a screwdriver into a hammer instead of just buying a hammer is your business. Good luck with that.


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## THEFRENCHA (Jan 26, 2003)

Is it April first already?


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

I think that the OP accomplished his goal here...

He got everyone to write five pages of debate over a silly question that could have been easily ignored...:laugher


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"The Mac is the "spork" of boats."
IIRC that honor belongs to the Revell, and the MacG should at least be called a _titanium spork._

But I think JonB gets the prize for this one, as they say "Oy! Such a marriage!" or as the used car salesmen say, "there's an ass for every seat".

Who'd have thought, a perfectly converted boat, ready and waiting for wedded bliss.

Bubblehead, ain't you never pounded in deck screws with a three-pound sledge? Works just fine. (G)


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## norahs arc (Jan 23, 2013)

Removing the mast - wow. I have had many sail boats with auxillary engines and I find I can always depend on the sails to get me where I want to go. Not so with engines. I have had my share (and maybe more) of engine failures over the last 50 years and they usually happen at the worst time. No I would keep the mast and sails unless you like to drift along out of control now and then. (Only power boats I would consider cruising on will have twin engines.)


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

pedalsteel said:


> I'm new to this forum. Am planning to purchase a used 30' sailboat but I'm not interested in sailing. I would like to remove the mast except for about 8 feet for antenna mounting. Would like to do the great loop and not have to worry about a mast, also very economical cruising. Would removing the mast as described have any ill effects on the vessel?? Thanks Al.


Some traditional sailboats and hull shapes that were intended to sailing gained a new life as sailboats. The beast example that come to my mind are Llauts also called as Menorquins. There are hundreds of them around Mallorca, once used as sailboats and know used mostly as motorboats. One famous brand even based all its motorboat production around those boats:

Menorquin





































Regarding what you want you should look for sailboats with a traditional shape, long shallow keelers (not deep one's), beamy boats with a relatively high CG (not to roll much) and that took its stability basically from hull shape. With care you should find one suitable. Off course it will not be a perfect fit for the function but it will work reasonably well if you don't try to go over hull speed.

Regarding those pictures you can see that they add a lateral hull extension to diminish roll. Another device was used in fisherman's boats that still had a shape heavily influenced from the time they used sail. In this case they add some kind of lateral small keels (more a stabilizer really) that not only diminish roll has sustain the boat in the beach. This kind of structure will not be hard to add to an existent boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## Bluerain (Apr 21, 2013)

SloopJonB said:


> This seems like an appropriate thread to post my latest "find".
> 
> vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/boa/3565104446.html1973 Columbia sailboat/pilothouse cruiser


I actually went and looked at that boat. The pilothouse addition and alterations made it pretty roomy actually, but it did roll worse than I expected, and it's probably due to no mast to balance it out.

As for the OP's question, I think the question was good (though lots of people ignored the actual question to instead belittle his idea because it isn't something they would like). Personally I had wondered what effect not having a mast on a sailboat hull would have, so reading this has been beneficial.

I totally understand what the guy's reasoning is, for cruising speed say 5-6 knots, a sailboat with a lil tiny diesel taking 1/2 gallon per hour or less of fuel, is far preferable to a trawler taking 4 gph (say $2.50/hr vs $20/hr, the difference adds up real fast). Some people want to motor along slowly and economically, nothing wrong with that.

It just seems it would be best to keep the mast even if not using sails at all, if this is the way someone wants to go.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

There are plenty of people who have converted life boats (which can be quite large) and launches, instead of chopping up a sailboat. And of course plenty of trawlers that have masts with a steadying sail. Take a trawler, put on a prop that is optimized for 6 knots instead of 20, and run at 6 knots and you just might close some of the economy gap. And length-for-length, you might find a 28' trawler has as much interior space as a 42' keelboat. Which makes the dockage much cheaper as well.


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

Learn to sail. It's more rewarding, more sophisticated, more enjoyable, greener, cooler, quieter, cooler, not smelly, cooler and just plain, cooler.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Use a sawzall rather than a hacksaw or angle grinder. It'll be way more efficient. Have it hooks up to a crane so as soon as you cut the top 20-30 feet of mast off the crane can swing it free. Sawzall will work on rigging too but it'll chew it messily. Post video of the procedure.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Sawzall will work on rigging too"
If you want to bash stuff up that's a great idea. But sailboat rigging UNBOLTS so all you need to clear it, is a wrench. And the job is done cleanly.
Then you pull the mast, in one piece, and sell it. Again no Sawzall, unless your goal is just to bash stuff up and make a noisy mess.


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## GMFL (Jun 9, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> unless your goal is just to bash stuff up and make a noisy mess.


Wasn't that the point of this whole thread??


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

If I was to remove the mast (remove, not destroy), I would install a fairly large water tank to balance the keel, somewhere on top of the cabin. You can always use more water. Keep the draft to 4 ft or less. If you are not in a hurry, it will be a fun trip. Wait for good weather to cross long stretches of open water or you will puke your guts out.


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## DocParty (Feb 14, 2013)

BubbleheadMd said:


> No, it operates _marginally_ in either setup. The Mac is the "spork" of boats. It does everything mediocre, and nothing very well.
> 
> Your definition of "perfect" is merely that it is capable of motoring and sailing at all. Yes, I've sailed aboard the Mac. I've also sailed rings around two of them in my Pearson 30. If you had any _sailing_ experience, you'd know that although it sails, it doesn't sail all that well.
> 
> ...


Just being an angry sailor? or an ass it seems to me!
The Mac meets his needs and allows him to later sail if he chooses to.
Wasn't that the real point of his needs?
Not stepping into this industry and be popeye from day one, but having a chance to get out on the water, do his thing, and then if he chooses to, begin sailing. He can achieve his goals with a Mac easier than with any other sailboat out there.
You must be stuck in your ways really deep. Sad to be your son I'd say.
Doc


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## Chas H (Sep 6, 2013)

pedalsteel said:


> I'm new to this forum. Am planning to purchase a used 30' sailboat but I'm not interested in sailing. I would like to remove the mast except for about 8 feet for antenna mounting. Would like to do the great loop and not have to worry about a mast, also very economical cruising. Would removing the mast as described have any ill effects on the vessel?? Thanks Al.


Al-
Check out the ECO-Trawler (green hull) on D-Dock at the Manitowoc Marina. It may meet your needs better than a sailboat.
-CH


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Just go under a low bridge, that will remove the mast.
Took 4.5 feet off the mast of the supply boat I was operating... Had a mate who (according to him), knew every thing about the area water ways around Morgan City La. He didn't.... went under the first two bridges without a problem That last bridge is what did me in...
Morale of the story!? Don't trust anyone who tells a good line about knowing it all.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Boasun said:


> Just go under a low bridge, that will remove the mast.
> Took 4.5 feet off the mast of the supply boat I was operating... Had a mate who (according to him), knew every thing about the area water ways around Morgan City La. He didn't.... went under the first two bridges without a problem That last bridge is what did me in...
> Morale of the story!? Don't trust anyone who tells a good line about knowing it all.


Nice part of the world, Morgan City, LA. I had a towing company from north Fla, send me there on a pointy bow tug drawing 10 feet and a barge around 300'. Only charts aboard were for the entry through the lock. No cables aboard, no winches fwd and no room in the lock to hip up.Came spinning outa the lock like a tether ball around the pole. And some folks think yachting is fun!


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

k_p_m said:


> I too am curious what peoples burn rates really are. I know thats not the point of sailing, but some of you guys must keep track?


I average around 9.5 NM/gal. diesel. 35' full keel, Yanmar 3GM30F. 29 Hp. Hull speed is 6.4 knots. I usually run at 2600-2800 RPM.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

The Macgregor bashers risk sounding a bit silly or uninformed if they assume ALL Macs sail the same. There was quite a lot of design variation throughout the Venture-Mac build history.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

First of all running around at sea with no mast is no problem ON THE GREAT LOOP! Sure when you get an ocean swell causing the boat to roll the roll will period will be less due to the loss of pendulum weight. How often will that be. 

10 ft mast say an old windsurfer mast will do just fine and can be left unstayed and dropped easily if required.

A sailboat will be more economical than a trawler.

One thing I might do is add some pitch to the prop to get closer to cruising speed at max torque as fuel burn will be reduced. 

Seems a reasonable idea and maybe the mast etc could be sold?


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

Geeeze another OLD POST dug up...


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## Digot (Jan 13, 2015)

Wow. I've been thinking of doing something similar to the OP and read this entire thread with interest. What a waste of time, as most were just critical off-topic replies which wouldn't be much help to the OP. Wherever you are, OP, I hope you are enjoying your boat. 

I've wondered about the feasibility of purchasing a 32'-38' sailing catamaran and removing the mast and sails to sell (hopefully offset the purchase cost somewhat). Even used power cats are always so expensive but more older sailing cats to be found more reasonably priced. I realize that power cats have different hulls but the sailing cat sans sails should still be pretty darn efficient and loads of room for a liveaboard. If one could repower up a bit to have a frankenstein trawler cat that would be efficient at low speed (trawler-like gph) but have some 'umph' when you needed/wished to go faster, too. A poor man's power catamaran, so to speak. I wish I knew where to find info on doing something like that. Anyone know of a blog of resource of anyone that has done that or documented attempting?

The OP is gone, I think, so feel free to bash me now instead. :laugher Thanks.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

should think canal boat instead of repurposed sailboat


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## Digot (Jan 13, 2015)

white74 said:


> should think canal boat instead of repurposed sailboat


Wow. More of the same. Thanks a bunch.

Never mind. I found another forum about converting sail cats to power cats was being discussed. And people actually read before replying! I marvel!! Bye.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Digot said:


> Wow. I've been thinking of doing something similar to the OP and read this entire thread with interest. What a waste of time, as most were just critical off-topic replies which wouldn't be much help to the OP. Wherever you are, OP, I hope you are enjoying your boat.
> 
> I've wondered about the feasibility of purchasing a 32'-38' sailing catamaran and removing the mast and sails to sell (hopefully offset the purchase cost somewhat). Even used power cats are always so expensive but more older sailing cats to be found more reasonably priced. I realize that power cats have different hulls but the sailing cat sans sails should still be pretty darn efficient and loads of room for a liveaboard. *If one could repower up a bit to have a frankenstein trawler cat that would be efficient at low speed (trawler-like gph) but have some 'umph' when you needed/wished to go faster, too.* A poor man's power catamaran, so to speak. I wish I knew where to find info on doing something like that. Anyone know of a blog of resource of anyone that has done that or documented attempting?
> 
> The OP is gone, I think, so feel free to bash me now instead. :laugher Thanks.


:batter:hammer:clobber feel better now? 

You have MY permission:chainsaw to do what you will with any boat you wish to make into a power boat. 

It is feasible and very affordable until you try to make them go fast. Most sailboats, even cats have "displacement" type hulls and tend to build dam like wake as they are pushed beyond the theoretical hull speed. Applying more power beyond that makes them churn the water and actually ride lower in their own wake even go slower.

You could get lucky and find some that will plane like some of the high end racing sailboats. but I'm really not an expert on all this. There are some very well qualified naval engineer/ architects here on the forum that could help on that.

I don't think you find much about making sail into power because it's all a very low tech way to make a power boat. Purists won't be much help. Motor sailers, even some trawlers have sails to compliment the power of the vessel, and to not have that available is a real loss in the vessel's actual design. Power boats do go better with power; Just the way things have evolved in boat design. Sails and wind pressure (there is a formula) can be converted to horsepower AND it's amazing how much power sails really do develop! It's way way beyond what just a motor can do because "lift" is also part of the equation.

"motor sailing" (Usually jib deployed and motor running) a method many of us use to make way in good time. This can't be done if the "new" boat is without sails, end result; it will motor slower then if it were "motor sailing"

This "make a sail boat a power boat" really is nothing new as some people just never bothered to raise the mast and or sails.

ps I only really read what you just posted.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I guess this is how it goes. I want to do something stupid, but if you think its stupid, you're stupid.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I love it; "If one could repower up a bit to have a frankenstein trawler cat that would be efficient at low speed (trawler-like gph) but have some 'umph' when you needed/wished to go faster, too."
Yeah, that's the poor man's way, let's just repower! A couple of BIGGER diesels will probably need bigger shafts, different screws and perhaps even struts.
Never mind that most cats have very narrow engine spaces, and oh, I guess we will need to reinforce the engine beds for the greater horsepower. Of course, adding a few hundred pounds to the stern of any boat, let alone a cat, should really improve performance as well, wouldn't you think?
Repowering with bigger engines to go slow is like buying a shrimp trawler or a tug boat to make long distance voyages; it is never economical.
I love how some people will come on here with a rather impractical idea and abuse those who have a pretty good idea of that impracticality, ignoring some pretty good advice. If I had a buck.......


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## Iriemon (Mar 27, 2012)

I know this is an old thread -- but it is a ongoing question.

I wouldn't buy a sailboat to use permanently as a non-sailboat for reasons others have mentioned. 

But for purposely of doing the Great Loop (mentioned in the OP) only, I see some logic to removing the mast for the trip. 

I have not done the Great Loop, but when I took a sailboat up the ICW a few years back, the "sail" part of the boat was not an advantage. There were very few places that were actually practical to sail in, and having a mast meant innumerable times waiting for bridges to open. Most of the times we just motored, and waited for bridges.

There were few area where we had to navigate any kind of signficant wave action, Albermarle Sound comes to mind, and Chasapeake Bay. But mostly the biggest problem with waves were from other boats. 

Except for the Great Lakes, it seems that most of the rest of the Great Loop is probably in the same category. I'm guessing you're probably not going to be actually sailing much. And to go thru the Eire locks and Chicago, you've got to take down the mast and put it back up, twice.

We are planning a Great Loop trip on a sailboat in a couple years, and I'm thinking of leaving my mast at a yard in one of the Okeechobee storage places. No waiting on bridges, and the costs of the extra fuel needed for areas I could actually sail would probably be less than the costs of unstepping and stepping the mast a couple times. And we don't have to deal with the mast laying on our deck and hanging over the ends for half the trip. 

For sailors who have actually done the Great Loop, I'd appreciate your views. Did you do a lot of actual sailing on the trip?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

This somewhat depends on the boat in question and on you. I don't have experience making the loop but I have a little experience on boats without their masts. There have been a few times when I have had to move a sailboat without a mast. In one case, after my Folkboat lost its mast, and another bringing an approximately 40 foot boat to Direcktors to get a new mast when I worked there in the 1970's. In both cases the motion on these boats was so violent that even moving safely around the decks was very difficult. Power boat wakes (we were in the Intercoastal Waterway) were shocking events that made standing almost impossible and moving about the cabin quite dangerous. 

But what I am not sure about is whether these were a unique experiences or typical. I have never been sure whether there was something about these specific boats that resulted in the experiences that I had. I have purposely asked people who have motored with their masts on their deck whether they have noticed a different motion. All say that they have and most said that it was bearable. I don't know how much worse not having a mast aboard would be from there. 

So, in my mind the answer would seem to lie in the specifics of the boat and your tolerance for uncomfortable motion. If I was considering doing something like that, I would have the mast removed and put on the dock, and then go out in snotty weather or a busy weekend and see whether I was comfortable or not. If I was marginally comfortable, I would then add some ballast to get the boat to sit on her lines, (or down in the bow a little since you are motoring and most boats squat when they are motoring) and go out and try that again, and see how that felt. 

If it was acceptable to you, you have your answer. If its not acceptable to you, then you had planned to have the mast removed for the trip anyway, and at that point, I would build a cradle to support the mast on deck and try that to see if that is any more comfortable. If that was not bearable, do some maintenance on your mast and then put it back up and look for other options. 

But frankly, if it were me, as others have suggested, you probably would be way ahead of the game buying a small trawler yacht, make the trip, and then selling her when you got back. The depreciation on the trawler should not be all that much worse than having to rebuild the engine on your sailboat after putting a couple thousand hours on it, and the shallower draft and larger accommodations would make the trip more comfortable.

Jeff


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## Iriemon (Mar 27, 2012)

Thanks Jeff, sound advice.

Our boat is a PDQ 32 cat, so the rolling should not an issue. That it might make more sense to buy and sell a trawler versus putting a thousand or so hours on the engines is an interesting proposition I'll have to mull a bit.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

You could also balance the boat by stowing a lot of heavy stuff above the water line. Can't see that it would have been hard to mimic the arm and weight of the mast by lashing a bunch of jerrycans with water on both sides mid ship for example, or on top of the cabin.


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## Iriemon (Mar 27, 2012)

krisscross said:


> You could also balance the boat by stowing a lot of heavy stuff above the water line. Can't see that it would have been hard to mimic the arm and weight of the mast by lashing a bunch of jerrycans with water on both sides mid ship for example, or on top of the cabin.


I'm no expert on physics, but that seems counter intuitive to me. I had thought that a sailboat mast prevented rolling only by the force of wind on the sail, but more knowledgeable folks here convinced me otherwise, one post in particular by making the reference to an ice skater who spins fast with arms tucked in and slows with arms extended. From my limited research this has to do with "rotational inertia" and "angular momentum". This article explains the phenomenon.

http: // www .bsharp.org/physics/spins

Under this principle, simply adding weight on deck wouldn't help, you'd have to add weight aloft to get the increase between the "axis of rotation" and mass, increasing the "moment of inertia."

The effect apparently depends on the amount of mass and the distance it is away from the center of axis. Thus, having a top heavy mast would apparently reduce the speed of roll compared to a lightweight carbon job, which would allow for faster roll.

Again, sounds counter intuitive to me, but consistent with the posts of more knowledgeable and experienced members.

But I have a cat so all this is irrelevant to me.


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## Iriemon (Mar 27, 2012)

Another thought I had thinking about this rotational inertia stuff.

If putting mass further way from the center of rotation dampens the effect of spin, i.e. putting a mast on a boat, then by the same logic, wouldn't putting heavier weight at the ends of the boat, as opposed the middle of the boat, dampen the effect of pitching? 

Maybe some of your physicists here can answer that question.


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## Wesman100 (Nov 1, 2010)

I know this is an old thread but thought I would reply anyway. 

I had thought of something like this and have read a few articles where some folks have actually done it. I recently bought a Mac 22 and with this boat there is no need to make any changes. It's small enough to add a mast stepping system and with the swing keel I can raise/lower the keel to suit my needs. Raise the mast for stability while motoring or sailing, or leave it stored across the cabin. If you plan on extensive cruising the 22' would be a bit (well, more than a bit) small. Which makes me wonder, what would be the maximum size sailboat that a mast stepping system would be practical?


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## centerline (Dec 26, 2015)

Wesman100 said:


> I know this is an old thread but thought I would reply anyway.
> 
> I had thought of something like this and have read a few articles where some folks have actually done it. I recently bought a Mac 22 and with this boat there is no need to make any changes. It's small enough to add a mast stepping system and with the swing keel I can raise/lower the keel to suit my needs. Raise the mast for stability while motoring or sailing, or leave it stored across the cabin. If you plan on extensive cruising the 22' would be a bit (well, more than a bit) small. Which makes me wonder, what would be the maximum size sailboat that a mast stepping system would be practical?


as the owner of many different boats throughout my life, I can shed some reasonable light on this.

its really not a worry for those that want to remove the mast from a sailboat and use the hull as a cruiser only... there definitley are pros and cons, but for the most part, thru this entire thread it has been about how rolly the sailboat would be in a seaway without the mast, and, yes it is a fact.... but not so much that it is unbearable like so many "swear" it is. 
these people have obviously never been aboard a powerboat in a choppy seaway....
my point is, they are comparing a sailboat without a mast to a sailboat WITH a mast, so yes, they are correct. but when comparing the mastless sailboat to a powerboat, the sailboat is more stable.... a 30' powerboat bobs like a cork, but can sink like a rock when inverted... at least the mastless sailboat will return upright.

as for trawlers, they CAN ride better because some of them DO have a shallow, but weighted keel... and all of them are designed to be as stable as possible, but for a man on a budget as most who would consider doing this is, a trawler is out of the budget.

and it IS true that a sailboat is quite a bit more fuel efficient than an equivalent powerboat.... and boats in the 28 to 32ft range, all have about the same storage space available... when they start getting bigger, the powerboats do begin to have larger spaces to store stuff.

for those that think one could by an old powerboat and put a smaller engine in it to gain the fuel economy... this is not very well thought out statement.
powerboat hulls do NOT slip thru the water as easily as a sailing hull does... and by the time one gets done repowering/modifying the powerboat hull in an attempt to make it as fuel efficient as the sail hull, the sail hull will can be thousands of miles away, with money still in the kitty.....

I am also a firm believer that all things being equal between a smaller "budget" sailboat and the traditional style "budget" powerboat, a sailboat is a more comfortable home for long term cruising....
And, if I was out somewhere in the ocean broke down, where help may be days or weeks away, I would much rather be in a mastless sailboat, than I would in a traditional powerboat... because during a storm, it is safer even if you only take a minimal amount of care.

trawlers are not included in this assessment because I believe that anyone considering doing this is working on a tight budget...

even if it does go against the grain of what most people want to believe, it can be a very economical way to go boating... but one should consider the reasonable pros and cons, not the unreasonable ones....


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## neeqness (Jan 31, 2017)

centerline said:


> as the owner of many different boats throughout my life, I can shed some reasonable light on this.
> 
> its really not a worry for those that want to remove the mast from a sailboat and use the hull as a cruiser only... there definitley are pros and cons, but for the most part, thru this entire thread it has been about how rolly the sailboat would be in a seaway without the mast, and, yes it is a fact.... but not so much that it is unbearable like so many "swear" it is.
> these people have obviously never been aboard a powerboat in a choppy seaway....
> ...


+1

Was about to say pretty much the same thing but you beat me to it. Although it may seem impractical and maybe even backwards to the typical sailor, to someone on a budget and willing to think out of the box, this can work quite well provided you are aware of the pros and cons.

For more practicality though, I would recommend using it as a motorsailor if at all possible. Motoring 100% of the time means either large tanks of gas and/or making more frequent stops to refuel. As a motorsailer you could significantly increase your range and save some money overall by keeping the rig.

If the issue is not wanting to learn the intricacies of sailing but still wanting to go this route, you may want to research which sailboats would be most accommodating for what you want to accomplish and in the manner you wish to accomplish it.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Can we change the name of this thread. Its not a sailboat without a mast its just a bad idea.


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