# Advice, please on crimping wire connections...



## FrankLanger (Dec 27, 2005)

I have to make some wire connections this weekend on my boat, and think I know what I'm doing, but would appreciate confirmation or correction. The wires are to the bilge pump, in an inside quarterberth locker. I have bought the right sleeve (blue) for the size 14 wires, and have a crimping tool. I am planning to cut about 3/8" of the insulation off the wire ends then twist a bit to avoid a stray thread of wire, then insert as far as it will go into the sleeve, then squeeze the heck out of it with the crimping tool, then test by pulling firmly on the wire to see if it will hold.

I don't have a soldering iron, and have heard mixed opinions on whether soldering is good on a boat (better connection, but more brittle/prone to breaking with vibration, acid in solder flux not good, etc.).

In one case, I have to add two wires to one end of the sleeve, and only one wire to the other end of the sleeve--any advice? Do I use a larger sleeve to accommodate the two wires and just squeeze harder for the single wire on the other end, or try to force the two wires into the smaller sleeve?

Thanks for any advice--I do need my bilge pump to work.

Frank.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

You may want to use heat-shrink butt connectors. Or at least use a piece of shrink tubing over the butt connectors you have already. Especially if the wires are in the bilge.


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

Crimping wire is a fast reliable way to put a removable connection on a wire, or join two wires together. The goal is to squeeze the barrel of the crimp connector around the wire, leaving a gas tight joint. 

Unfortunately, these connections are often done incorrectly or using the wrong tools and leave a connection that can corrode and fail in a moist environment.

The first item is to use the correct tool. Unless you have done a lot of crimp connections the tool should have a ratchet to prevent you from opening the jaws until enough force, or a small enough diameter, is put on the connection. Most tools you can buy from the local hardware store are just cheep toys and will not do the job. 

Some try to get around this by soldering the joint. This leaves the end of the wire leaving the crimp barrel brittle and susceptible to breakage. Also a bad crimp leaves voids that trap solder flux. Solder flux is an agent, usually in the solder, that cleans the metal surface to allow the solder to stick. What’s wrong with that, you ask. Flux is a corrosive and will degrade the joint over time, exactly what soldering was supposed to prevent. So the long and short, never solder crimp connections.

One option I have used on large crimp connections is to coat the inside of the connector barrel with an anti oxidation compound such as No-OX. This compound is made for electrical connections and can sometimes protect marginal joints from oxidizing and failing.

Ok, so you have the correct tool and you need to crimp more then one wire in the barrel. Two wires having the same diameter as one of another gauge can be crimped into a connector of the larger gauge. Two 14 AWG have the same diameter as an 8 AWG wire but might fit into a 10 AWG connector, or might not, depends on the stranding. But as long as the wire combination fits into the barrel AND the crimper for the gauge of the connector, not the wire, is used, the crimp should be good.

Let me put in a small word or two on stripping wire. Strip wire so there are no nicks or broken strands. A thermal stripper, one that melts off the PVC insulator is the only sure way of doing this, but a good mechanical stripper in good repair will also do good strips. Avoid the combination stripper/crimper as it will do neither well. I also strip one size larger then the wire, i.e. use the 12 AWG position to strip 14 AWG wire, to help prevent nicks. Inspect the strip after you do in, if there are broken strands at the point of the strip, do it again.

The strip length of the wire depends on the connector barrel length. The wire should go completely through the barrel and be visible on the non-insertion side of connector barrel. Don’t leave too much wire since it might interfere with the screw or fast-on and don’t leave to little. On a good joint the wire insulation should touch or almost touch the barrel, or be covered by the connectors insulator. 

Some crimp connector barrels (the good ones) don’t have a seam in the barrel, some do. If there is a seam, make sure the crimp nipple of the tool (if your tool has one) compresses the side of the barrel WITHOUT the seam. The other side should have a concave area to protect the seam from opening. Doing it the other way will leave your joints loose and prone to failure.

One last thing I do is to use heat-shrink on each connection. Put a length of heat-shrink tubing on the wire(s) before the crimp is made and shrink the tubing over the connector barrel and wire. I like to have the tubing at least twice as long as the connector barrel to act like a small strain relief on the wire to help eliminate sharp bends just at the barrel and thus, wire strand breakage. Since I always do this, I prefer the non-insulate crimp connectors to make it easier. These non-insulated types also make it easy to inspect the crimp after it is done. It’s just as easy t place heat-shrink over insulated connectors, just make sure the tubing will go over the insulator, not just the wire.


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## FrankLanger (Dec 27, 2005)

Thanks for your detailed description!
Frank.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Generally, you don't want to cut the insulation to expose more than 1/32" beyond the crimping barrel of the connector. 

Also, in a marine environment, you really need to use ADHESIVE-LINED heat shrink tubing, not plain heat shrink tubing.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

DO NOT CRIMP !

End of story, crimping on a boat is a no no. crimping to a bilge pump is lunacy.

Crimping is a cheap and cheerfull method of making a terminal connection.

Solder. JUST LIKE the MANUFACTURER OF YOUR BILGE PUMP did when making it.

There is NO argument between solder or crimp. There is nothing brittle about a soldered joint IF Its been made correctly and the cables dressed accordingly (hellerman sleeved etc)

When it comes to critical systems YOU solder OR you get someone in who knows what they are doing to solder it for you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

ABYC Standards

11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of
mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the
connection shall be so located or supported as to
minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder
changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.​*EXCEPTION: Battery lugs with a solder contact
length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the
conductor.
NOTE: When a stranded conductor is soldered, the
soldered portion of the conductor becomes a solid
strand conductor, and flexing can cause the
conductor to break at the end of the solder joint
unless adequate additional support is provided.​*


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Frank, I'm with d.verry on this one, crimp is usually the better way to go. But offhand, I'd usually take two 14g wires and treat them as one 12g wire (just moving up one gauge size) and then crimp them in a 12g (yellow) crimp.

There ARE special crimp fittings that are actually 12g in one side and 14g or 16g in the other...but don't worry about that. Instead, use the 12g fitting to accomodate the two 14g wires. Then on the other side...either fold over the single wire, or insert a second dummy, so again you've filled the crimp fitting "mormally" with the amount of wire it expects.

The Ancor type adhesive lined shrink wrap crimp fittings are the way to go in the bilge. After heating them, they shrink down and the adhesive flows and you literally will get a waterproof connection. They also are long enough so that you can see they fit well over the insulated part of the wire, just strip enough so the bare portion fills the correct half of the crimp fitting. (Half only, it takes two crimps to seat the two wires, one from each end.)

Pulling on the crimp to test it IS the right way to do it, if you can pull it apart, it was no good anyway. Those cheap hand crimp tools (without the ratchet) can make a workable crimp if you have good hands or you test them. The $50 ratcheting tool is really better--but for one crimp I can understand not buying one.<G>

In our bilge wiring, after I made the heat-sealed crimp AND tested the pump function, I also overwrapped the splice with butyl tape, aka "self amalgamting tape" or "silicon tape" which is a rubbery tape that fuses to itself in 24 hours, forming a second waterproof coating over the splice.

Solder works...but long term testing shows it isn't the best solution even though it "seems" like it should be. Among other things it sets you up for galvanic problems because now there are more metals in the joint, unmatched, and creating a stiff point to work harden the stranded wires.

Take up whatever slack you have from the bilge pump to the splice, and try to hang/screw/whatever that joint as high up as you can. That way, even if the waterproofing fails, less chance of it getting wet.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The other real problem with soldering is that the solder moves along the wire via capilliary action and can cause the wire to become rigid...so you're defeating the purpose of getting good marine-grade wire in the first place. Where the solder creeps along the wire, it will fatigue and break much more readily than unsoldered wire of the same size and type. Also, the real problem is that the heat that can occur in a boat's electrical system can cause the solder to melt and then the wire may fall free and short out on something more dangerous...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The fatigue (hard spot) problem can be solved, and is covered in various specs that require a soldered splice to be firmly affixed to something else, i.e. with an attachment to the bulkhead or firmly taped into a wire harness so it is supported and can't flex at the solder joint.

With a crimp...I still like to do the same thing, make sure the xtra mass of the splice is attached to SOMEthing so it can't work the wires.

But on the heat...for routine connections if you can generate that much heat, you're in trouble anyway. A fuse should blow long before the solder can melt. For *cable* lugs, which are carrying high current normally and can carry 1000-4000+ amps during a short, I'll agree with you that solder melting and releasing a connection is more of a real concern. Oddly enough....in the elevator industry, where they use "the same" heavy cables and lugs, the standard used to be SOLDER into the lugs. I've used "elevator solder" and have no idea why it was supposed to be special, just proves that it takes all types, I suppose.<G>

Personally, I swage battery lug fittings--but only after I've placed solder paste ("Solder-It") inside the cable. After the swage is made, I heat the lug enough so the solder paste flows and the resin bleeds out. I'm sure that's "wrong" but in my book, it guarantees the physical crimp has been made, AND an airtight solder connection is in there as well to exclude moisture. I guess in ten or twenty more years I'll find out just how well that's been aging.<G>


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

Crimping should only be done with the proper tools. For a large diameter cable such as a battery cable the proper crimper will have a mechanical advantage such as a screw, lever or hydraulic mechanism to exert enough pressure to insure a good crimp. I have seen for sale a “crimp” device you use with a hammer or mallet. While it will compress the metal of the connector it will not provide a gas tight joint. The ONLY crimp tools I have seen that will perform correctly are professional, heavy duty, tools and are not available from Home Depot, Radio Shack or the like.

I routinely crimped connectors to wire from 24 AWG to 750MCM (cable about 1 ½” in diameter) and have taught crimping in a manufacturing facility. Crimping is one of the best ways to make an electrical connection.

Crimping IS swaging the wire to the connector. A proper crimp leaves nothing in the joint but metal. In a good crimp, the metal of the wire strands and the metal of the crimp connector cold flow together to eliminate everything else. So if you have room for solder paste you have not done a proper crimp. A proper crimp is extremely reliable under most conditions, definitely under all conditions found on a sailboat. 

I suspect that those of you who insist on soldering or think that crimping is not good enough have experienced only poor crimps. Crimping is a skill that would behoove those of you who do your own electrical work to invest in the proper tools and practice, practice, practice. Many maintenance technicians I have met in the auto, marine, or most other general public repair facilities have never had a class in crimping and simply squeeze the connector onto the wire without knowing the why or how of the process. Many also use the tools that you can buy at, you guessed it, Home Depot and Radio Shack. The proper tools should be available on the internet, almost everything else is. Make sure it has a mechanism to insure enough pressure for the crimp, sometimes a ratchet, sometimes a mechanical stop that must come together before the crimp can be considered compete.

If the crimp is in a very moist environment I have been know to put some silicon marine calk inside my heat-shrink tubing as I slide it over the joint. This will waterproof the crimp and prevent water migration along the insulation of the wire. This is functionally the same as the adhesive lined shrink some of the marine connectors have.

I’m not trying to create an argument, just pass on some of my expertise. You are invited to listen or not, that is obviously your choice. I don’t expect to change anyones methods if they “know” better. But please don’t confuse the issue to those who are trying to learn.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Guys this is not debatable
Crimping is only suitable for large diameter cable where soldering is not practical or for when a cable is TOO light to solder effectivly.

The rule of thumb from brodcasting is crimp signal and solder power. However heavy DC lugs to terminals such as battries Crimp (Professionally As said) more effectivly than Soldering unless industrial flow or potted solder is available.

Regardless of preference, metals expand/contract at different rates and crimping on light cables ie 4 or 5 amp etc is a bad idea period for something like your bilge pump wiring.

Correct method for soldering this would be to twist/twirl each end to avoid stray ends, then form a loop/ hook in each end, then tin them by applying the iron to the ends. select one and using a hellerman tri expander put a sutible hellerman sleave over one. interlock the two hooks and squeese for mechanical strenght then solder with the iron in the center just long enough to allow additional solder to flow into the hooks but not long enough to DRY the joint. when cool enough to touch, apply hellerman oil and slide the sleave 
over the exposed joint. Then support the cable eaither side with P clips for ALL the usual practical reasons.

If You want an alternitive solution, purchase a std domestic junction box, strip the bilge wire ends and twist the paired ends before inserting into the brass and tighting the screw.(ie in from same side as opposed to in on one side and out the other) the advantage is akin to that of a professional crimp in that the screw squeeses the cores tight and the junction box will provide mechanical strenght, support and protection.

In absence of someone who REALLY knows how to solder or crimp, the Junction box Should prove the most robust of any DIY solutions


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Apparently, Jorjo seems to think he knows more about boats and the proper wiring of them than the ABYC standards group. Yeah, right...


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

Sailingdog,

I have long ago stopped trying to change the minds of those who “know” better. Hopefully at least he isn’t working on anyones boat but his own.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Dave-

True that....hopefully evolution will take its rightful toll and take him out the the shallow end of the gene pool.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

I've used some solder/shrink connectors on my boat. Just wondering what the opinions are on these type connectors. If you havn't seen them, it is a piece of thick shrink tube with a band of solder in the middle. The wires are inserted into the solder band from both sides, and the whole thing is heated with a heat gun until the solder melts. The result is a small solder joint encased in a very rigid piece of plastic.

My boat won't be going anywhere that I can't swim to shore from, so I won't be changing the connectors no matter what, just wondering if these sound like good connections.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

US27-
I have a couple of boxes of those from 3M, built for use by NASA. In theory they are bomb-proof, gas-tight, totally sealed, but the weak point is the actual APPLICATION process. They are pretty damned hard to use without the matching special heat gun, they will not set up properly over any old heat shrink gun or solder flame--at least not this particular type. You may have something very similar but "different enough" to work better with regular tools.


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

US 27,

These are fine for wire to wire connections where the wire will not be flexed. Hellosailor is correct; the problem is heating the joint to the 183 deg C to melt the solder, without damaging the insulation of the wire. Even if you manage to do it, just bear in mind the joint will not be a strong as the wire so protect it from stress. I have never used them, preferring to make my joints in a way that I can inspect them for good solder flow or proper crimp compression. Just remember it is a soldered joint and so is brittle.


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## Blue Eagle (Jun 29, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Apparently, Jorjo seems to think he knows more about boats and the proper wiring of them than the ABYC standards group. Yeah, right...


The ABYC are catering to their constituency I'm afraid - Yachties. Not a group universally renowned for their DIY prowess. Jorjo and others are absolutely right, the most effective way to permanently join an electrical cable to a connector is with a solder-joint. Crimp joints are only used for expediency's sake by OEM manufacturers, and usually for lack of skill, knowledge or understanding by DIYers. Even if a tight crimp is made, contacting clean stripped wire, the surface area for current transmission is unlikely to be as great as with a well-made solder joint. Hence the crimp will warm up, and the moisture in the air (and there will be some present, even if you've subsequently put a heat-shrink covering over the connection) will slowly allow the connection to corrode. Perhaps not enough to stop it working altogether, but certainly enough to impede current flow - causing heating. And hot cables cause fires of course.

A well-made solder joint - by which I mean one made between clean, tinned wire, and a clean connector, with just enough solder applied to allow it to run by capillary action into the joint, and not to "bubble" outside, and which looks shiny rather than dull (a "cold" solder joint) - will eliminate any possibility of moisture ingress into the joint and ensure 100% contact between wire and connector. This is in direct contrast to what a crimp connector achieves.

To quote Tom Cunliffe of Yachting Monthly "crimp connectors have no place on boats".

Finally: Brittleness of solder joints
As to concerns raised here about brittleness of solder joints... it's rubbish I'm afraid - what the correspondents meant to talk about was the fatigue stress-point as the wire which has been rendered solid by the solder (which in any case shouldn't extend beyond 1/8" outside the connector) gives way to the flexible wire. The same situation will be experienced however where the wire exits a crimped fitting. This should be a non-issue in any case. If you have wires flapping around to the extent that fatigue becomes a concern, your problem is that YOU HAVEN"T SECURED AND SUPPORTED YOUR WIRING PROPERLY!!

Never mind what ABYC say, what do navies around the world do?

cheers,

Blue Eagle


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## GordMay (Dec 19, 2002)

If _ABYC are catering to their constituency_, we would be wise to learn just who supports the ABYC.
Their membership is primarily marine manufacturers, and professional boat repairers. By far and away, boat builders, repair yards and marine surveyors are the biggest users of the ABYC standards. Very few "Yachties" spend the $179 to join, then another $259 to obtain the "Standards and Technical Information Reports for Small Craft ".
It should be noted that the U.S. Code ofd Federal Regulations (CFR-33, etc), and the Canadian Coast Guard "Construction Standards for Small Vessels" (TP-1332, etc) both refer to ABYC standards.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I can't speak for the USN but do note that the FAA requires crimps and bans soldered splices. Oddly enough, the USAF also used crimps, I spoke to a fellow who installs miles of harnesses in combat aircraft and he said they're also prohibited from soldering, he can install a hundred pounds of wiring and it is exclusively crimped.

So that's two sources of aviation specifications, both concerned with "oops, it fell down, went boom" who say solder is no good in wiring.

And I've seen USAF test data done in the late 60's, that indicated wire wrap (or almost anything else) was more reliable than soldering, based on actual lab testing of circuit boards and other assemblies. Even with lab-quality soldering, the soldered connections to boads simply FAILED more often than anything else--including wire wraps.

ABYC standards are not meant for "yachties" they are meant for the firms that build boats, i.e. professional boat builders and professional electricians in their employ. There's never a time or place where "yachties" would be concerned with meeting ABYC specs, except by personal choice.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Apparently, Jorjo seems to think he knows more about boats and the proper wiring of them than the ABYC standards group. Yeah, right...


ABYC? Whats that? some yank thing ? Some irrelevent Standards group that has little or nothing to do with 99% of the world?

Heads up Dog. your just a sailorboy acting smart on a forum, thanks for your input but shut up till you know what your talking about,

The forum membership is international, the ABYC may be some big deal in your locality but its Nothing to me, I'm neither interested in it nor do I consider it of any signifigance.

You Americans May well crimp as a Norm. That still Does NOT make the practice Right. Nor does it put your in a position of Knowing anything of relevence beyond your Own countrys habits.

In short Dog Your a loud mouthed Yank a$$hole who'd sooner pick a fight than say something useful on an INTERNATIONAL forum.

GET YOUR HEAD ROUND THE FACT THAT YOUR YANK MENTALITY PREVENTS YOU REALISING THAT THERE IS A WHOLE WORLD OF COUNTRIES OUT THERE THAT ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR CHEAP AND CHEERFULL MASSPRODUCTION METHODS and who would rather have quality and would sooner do the job right.

American standards are LOWER. You go crimp to your hearts content Dog..
and who knows... perhaps a SAIL through crimping station if market predictions showed a profit in it 

You Guys go right ahead and debate it amoung yoursleves down there in Yanks ville, Meanwhile the rest of the world will continue to Solder when solder is needed


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Boy, some of you guys sure take it personal when someone disagrees with you. 
Bottom line it's only a freakin bilge pump. There should be at least one other electric and at least two manual pumps in addition. Crimp, solder or twist the damn things together and dip em in silicone it's gonna work. When it stops working fix it. Sheesh.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sailing Dog: Its that kind of condescending crap that definitely makes this site entertaining. But think about it like this. You got hammered from Hong Kong and the UK. That's worldwide condemnation!

Jojo: You need to calm down. Have you ever hard of spontaneous human combustion? You might just be a candidate Dude.

By the way, I use both the crimping technique and the solder sleeves. I like the sleeves when I am running through the bilge, etc.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Jorjo, you not jumping on the "I hate America bandwagon" are you. Or have you been riding for awhile now.


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## NickL (May 4, 2006)

I wonder what Capt. Bligh did, crimp or solder?


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

Interesting what some people get hot about. Yes, it is just a bilge pump and almost anyway will work. I have been known to cut corners in the past and do a quick repair in an inappropriate manner… and have almost always lived to regret it. I don’t know, maybe I’m just lazy, but I prefer to do a repair only once.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

knothead said:


> Jorjo, you not jumping on the "I hate America bandwagon" are you. Or have you been riding for awhile now.


Jorjo is a founding member...and too dumb to realize that the ABYC is part of the ISO group that develops INTERNATIONAL standards for the marine industry.

Also, jorjo is probably too dumb to realize *that bilge pumps have fairly long leads, that leave the connections well out of the bilge.* There are connections that should be soldered...but the power leads to a submersible bilge pump aren't among them.

Surfesq- IMHO, I don't really see what Jorjo says as condemnation, since he doesn't have the IQ to understand what is really going on.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you are really interested in reading about crimped electrical connections, you might want to read the article here.

I don't know of any tests between crimped and soldered connections, in a marine environment, but soldered connection have a track record of a greater rate of failure than crimped connections, and in a marine environment, you really should be using only marine-grade tinned wire, as you can see from the article I mention above.


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

To ALL:

Since the US (us yanks) can't do specifications correctly:

From IEC60950 (A Europian Union specification on safety of power equipment)

— wires connected by soldering are not considered to be adequately fixed unless they
are held in place near to the termination, independently of the soldered connection;


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

"Interesting what some people get hot about. Yes, it is just a bilge pump and almost anyway will work. I have been known to cut corners in the past and do a quick repair in an inappropriate manner… and have almost always lived to regret it. I don’t know, maybe I’m just lazy, but I prefer to do a repair only once"

Dave, I wasn't suggesting that it's ok to to a half-assed job. I was only saying that it's kinda silly to get so worked up about how to wire a bilge pump. 
I usually always use heat shrink butt connectors for an application like this. But I am sure that someone with a modicum of common sense could do a pretty good job with a little solder, shrink tubing and wire ties. 
In the immortal words of Rodney King "can't we all just get along"


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

Knot,

Just wanted to be sure! ;-) Actually I'm getting a big kick out of all of the passion in this one little topic. 

I have and expect to continue to learn a lot on this forum, I contribute when I have something worthwhile. As a trainer in manufacturing and electronic processes, I am always mindful of those who are learning. I can’t help it, it’s just the way I am.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

So, after reading this thread and becoming quite amused, I need to ask the experts:

You mean twisting the wires together and bubble gum does not work? Whew, my boat is in trouble. I will say I followed ABC Standards (Allready Been Chewed). Since the twisting is not subject to the cracking of solder, the gum makes it watertight and it can be stuck anywhere, I fail to see how I could have gone wrong?

I did chew Bubblicious on the especially critical applications.


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

Dad,

All I can say is !


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Surfesq said:


> Jojo: You need to calm down. Have you ever hard of spontaneous human combustion? You might just be a candidate Dude.
> 
> By the way, I use both the crimping technique and the solder sleeves. I like the sleeves when I am running through the bilge, etc.


LOL, Naw Surf, It's just a Northern Ireland thing, we don't mince words at all over here, Visitors frequently think a fight is about to errupt when locals are just saying hello in colourfull lingo.

But back to the topic.

Safest suggestion in this senario has to be a small plastic Waterproof Junction box. You Life can depend on a bilge pump and its only ever as good as its wiring


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

jorjo said:


> LOL, Naw Surf, It's just a Northern Ireland thing, we don't mince words at all over here, Visitors frequently think a fight is about to errupt when locals are just saying hello in colourfull lingo.


Nah, we just think you're an illiterate, ignorant and obnoxious A$$.

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with you about waterproof junction boxes being a good thing, but they can also cause problems, if they are not properly sealed.

CruisingDad-

You need to use the sugar-free gum, so as not to attract rats and other vermin to your electrical system, if you're using the ABC electrical standards. Bubblicious is only recommended for above waterline connections, BubbleYum is recommended for below the waterline and in the bilge connections.  BTW, ABYC Code says that Red wires are DC positive leads.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

all this rukus about wiring a bilge pump, what if he had a real concern, like that red wire... wonder what that one is for? 

---ISO standards... screw them, as long as you have a policy, and its written down, you can be ISO'd. (along with a fat-azz check.)


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## jr438234606 (Apr 25, 2006)

jorjo said:


> ABYC? Whats that? some yank thing ? Some irrelevent Standards group that has little or nothing to do with 99% of the world?
> 
> In short Dog Your a loud mouthed Yank a$$hole who'd sooner pick a fight than say something useful on an INTERNATIONAL forum.


Jorjo: Check out the Sailnet Members Map. See any trends? How about Sailnet's physical address of 381 Brinton Lake Road, Thornton PA 19373, USA?

'Guess it's a "Yank" thing after all, huh? (Even though I live South of the Mason-Dixon Line). Do they have Internet in Ireland yet? Oh... wait! That's an American Invention too!


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## NickL (May 4, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> So, after reading this thread and becoming quite amused, I need to ask the experts:
> 
> You mean twisting the wires together and bubble gum does not work? Whew, my boat is in trouble. I will say I followed ABC Standards (Allready Been Chewed). Since the twisting is not subject to the cracking of solder, the gum makes it watertight and it can be stuck anywhere, I fail to see how I could have gone wrong?
> 
> I did chew Bubblicious on the especially critical applications.


The bubble gum is not really the best thing to use. Go with 5200 and/or duct tape I find the goo from the tape to hold important connections together very well, and if you flip some of the tape backwards it will hold the wire up high and dry. 5200 can be used in the same manner, but duct tape is a little cheaper.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Nick,

It is quite obvious to me that you have never chewed Duct tape. It leaves a horrible taste in your mouth. As for the 5200, I am afraid the long term (or short term) conscequences of never being able to chew again make it a poor choice for the cruising couple.

Nope. Bubble gum is the way to go. "A little chew, put it on, sitck it, then your're through."


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## NickL (May 4, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Nick,
> 
> It is quite obvious to me that you have never chewed Duct tape. It leaves a horrible taste in your mouth. As for the 5200, I am afraid the long term (or short term) conscequences of never being able to chew again make it a poor choice for the cruising couple.
> 
> Nope. Bubble gum is the way to go. "A little chew, put it on, sitck it, then your're through."


I know it taste horrible, but I dont want to attract bugs do to the gum, I live in Florida. Do you use regular or sugar free? And have you had any bug problems?


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## jr438234606 (Apr 25, 2006)

Me Thinks This:


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## NickL (May 4, 2006)

Easy Jr. Did you slip and fall on an ear or two of corn?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Nah, we just think you're an illiterate, ignorant and obnoxious A$$.


Huh? but I've already told you I'm not American 

Some may find this A Usefull Tip.

Many prototype electronic circuits where "potted" traditionally to prevent repairs or reconstruction by the end user. the technique involved nothing more than a small container, a bedding layer of epoxy,then insert circuit and cover with more epoxy until level.

things like smashed or broken junction boxes can easily be re/constructed mid voyage using any small container and epoxy.

The most successfull use of the method I know of was a seagoing fishing boat where the bilge pump wiring got severed close to the pump and the repair was made at sea by stripping and twisting the tails before drying and "potting" them in Araldite filled screw top bottle caps. The repair was still 100% effective 6 years later when the bilge pump was being replaced during a refit.

I don't recomend leaving an on the fly repair do for 6 years, but none the less the method and simplicity of quickly fabricating lasting waterproof repair suitable for many tricky situations at sea using such common onboard items is one worth mentioning.

The method can also be used for casing repairs for dropped/ cracked handheld radios or gps etc if they are cracked but still functioning (since the epoxy is also an effective electrical insulator.)
Simply fill all cracked and exposed areas then tape up or wrap in plastic for shaping untill the epoxy sets.

The result may be ugly and irreversable but at least any remaining functionality can be effectively preserved untill the end of that leg of a voyage


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*To crimp or not to crimp....*

Shrink tube can be slid over the wire and warmed up with a heat gun, or better yet, shrink connectors can be purchased to give the same results -> a water tight seal.

Good luck!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

happyman said:


> Shrink tube can be slid over the wire and warmed up with a heat gun, or better yet, shrink connectors can be purchased to give the same results -> a water tight seal.
> 
> Good luck!


Only adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing really gives a water tight seal. Normal heat shrink tubing gives a seal, but is not water-tight as capiliary action will wick water up in to the tubing.

And Jorjo... that just mean's you're an Irish illiterate @$$.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Hey, far be it from me to duck the chewing sidebar, but anyone have favorite sources for racheting crimpers? btw, that link--I think it was sailingdogs's--to the GoodOldBoat crimp / electrical test made a convert out of me.

Also need wire and liquid tape. Generally speaking, tinned #14 wire is what to use, correct? Cabin lights, that sort of thing?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

What wire you should be using depends on the load and the distance run. "Ampacity" tables, as Calder calls them, are pretty widely available and will tell you what kind of load will work over what distance. Don't forget that the wiring should be designed for the HEAVIEST LOAD on a circuit, while the breakers should be sized for the LOWEST LOAD on a circuit. The reason for this should be pretty obvious. You want the breakers to trip well before the wire heats up significantly.

If you have several loads on a circuit, and one is significantly lower than the others, say an LED light versus regular incandescents, it should probably have an in-line fuse near the fixture, because if you gear the breaker for the LED light fixture, you'll probably trip it every time you turn on an incandescent fixture. Likewise, if you have three incandescent light fixtures on a single circuit, the breaker should be geared to trip if one of them shorts, not if all three short, otherwise you could be risking a serious fire from one shorting out and the breaker not tripping. Calder has a pretty good discussion of this in his book.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Typically you'd choose wire that is adequately sized to have less than a 3% voltage drop in the run you are using. Let's say a cabin light in the v-berth, 30' away from the breaker panel including all the zigzags in the line. That makes it a 60' run, because you count both sides of the circuit. With a 20-watt bulb in that light...you'd draw less than two amps, so you could use a thin wire pair that only has a 3% voltage drop at 2 amps, and it would be good enough to give you a nice bright light. (In practice, you'd probably use a heavier wire and "t" off multiple lights all the way along one side of the boat, doing some rough figuring for the total of them all and something less than the total length for something that complex. In practice, you might just pick up the closest spool of wire you had, since 100' spools are cheaper and you just might have 14g at hand.<G>)

The actual power handling capacity of the wire, called ampacity, will be well above the "3% voltage drop" size. Ampacity depends on what the insulation type is, and whether the wire will be in "free air" or buried in a bundle or conduit, which traps heat. If you exceed the ampacity rating--the wire catches fire, which is not a good thing. If you pick wire which has more than a 3% voltage drop, you just choke the devices at the far end.

For instance, if you use 10g wire to feed your masthead light, the light will be nice and bright. But if you use 14g or 16g wire, you can save some weight aloft. To a diehard racer...the 14g wire and saving weight aloft might be the right answer. If you don't want to get run down at night...10g might be better.<G>

Sources for crimping tools? I'd avoid no-name junk from China because it is easy to make the dies the wrong size. Any brand name from any reputable source should do. Palladin is one of the "second-tier" brands you'll find at a lot of computer stores, etc., that seems to be quite good for casual use. (Might not hold up to 50,000 crimps in industrial use but that's not us, right?<G>)

Something else about crimps that I don't think anyone has mentioned here. The fittings should be tubular, or lined with tubular liners (copper or tinned sleeves) and not split metal. The $5/100 kind in the auto stores are always split metal, not seamless tubing, and if you crimp the tooth down on the split side--instead of the seamless side--the crimp will never have full strength. There are real differences in "the good stuff" that way.

You'll see most ratcheting crimpers have a removable/replaceable crimp die. If you find one that doesn't, don't worry about that. In practice you don't swap dies, you swap tools. You remove the die to replace it after it has worn out, which shouldn't be an issue for "home" users. Looking at how clean the tooling is, the overall quality of it, is more important. If you need to crimp TV cables or something else, buy a second crimper not a second die.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

AMP, Ancor, Paladin, and Ideal are four companies that make ratcheting crimp tools. 

Hellosailor's point about the crimp fittings is very valid, also the ones you find in the automotive store are often steel rather than tinned copper, which is what I beleive the marine-grade crimp fittings are made of. The automotive ones will not only not hold as well, but will generally corrode in a marine environment.


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

Use the largest wire that you can fit into the space (conduit, access hole, etc.). Generally (very generally, Hellosailor is correct, it depends on the length, insulation temperature rating, etc.) 10 AWG is good for 30A, 12 AWG for 24A, 14 AWG for 16A. However, for long runs the voltage drop in the wire may rob power from the appliance so you may want to go to a higher gauge. 

The breaker or fuse rating is generally matched to the wire gauge it protects. This means the largest breaker you should use with a 10 AWG wire is 30A. Smaller is OK but never larger. If you feed a smaller fuse with a larger breaker, the wire gauge to that smaller fuse needs to be the same gauge as the circuit wire. What this means is that if you are putting a 2A fuse in line to an instrument, and feeding that fuse on a circuit protected by a 30A breaker, the wire to that 2A fuse needs to be a minimum of 10 AWG. The wire from the fuse the instrument may be 18 AWG.

Match the wire to the breaker and the breaker to the wire. If you have a circuit that opens a breaker because of the amount of current draw, do NOT just install a larger breaker unless you check that the wire is rated for the current the new breaker will allow. If you have a 15A breaker or fuse on a 14 AWG service, and need more current, you will need to change the breaker AND the wire.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

crimping...

Hey, not to stoke the fires of you passionate-about-racheters...but I just read Don Chase's book on Maintanance, the this Old Boat guy, and he said old school crimpers are easier to use in a tight space. Racheting is better, but realistically, old school crimpers are more practical, given space issues.

Commentary?

[I expect plenty!]


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I don't see any problem with someone saying that smaller, lighter, cheaper, tools are easier to use in tight spaces.

Of course, if the smaller lighter cheaper LESS RELIABLE tool causes another failure in that inaccessible place sometime when the boat is tossing around and you are shorthanded, you're gonna know why it sometimes makes sense to just do things the hard way.<G>


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

Just remember that the goal in a crimp connection is to cold-flow the metal of the crimp connector and the wire to produce a gas tight joint. For cable larger then 8 AWG this is almost impossible without some kind of mechanical advantage that a good ratchet or hydraulic crimper gives. I am not a small man, I consider myself to have more then average strength, and I would not crimp a connection of a wire 8 AWG without a mechanical advantage. 

Almost as important is to have a crimper that has a good die or crimp surface. The cheep ones will be narrow and flimsy, not worth the money. My set has a crimping surface of at lease 3/16”. There are ratchet crimpers that are not larger then the ones without; I have two sets that will crimp up to a 1 AWG wire and are about 9” long. They are available on the internet. There are also those that are up to 4’ long without the ratchet to give that mechanical advantage. 

The moral is to use the tool appropriate to the application. Just as you should not use a pair of pliers to torque hex nuts, you should use the correct crimper you need for the job.

If you are crimping wire 10 AWG and smaller go ahead and use the type of crimper you are describing, just be sure to squeeze hard enough to cold flow the crimp.


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## Rodz47 (Apr 2, 2006)

I have read almost every post since the beginning of this thread and have some comments.
I do not think that soldered joints are as bad as you stated if you follow certain rules. The marine type wires are tinned that makes them good candidate for such operation. The best electrical characteristic has solder with 100% tin. However, it has also weak mechanical properties and can crystallize over the years. To improve the solder characteristics copper and silver is added. You should use SnAgCu type of solder. Now to the flux. First of all - NO ACID OR CHLORIDE FLUX can be used on electrical type connections. If you would like to make good, durable connections you should use solder with ROSIN core as flux. 

I know that to make a good solder connection is not easy. The solder melting temperature should be in the range of 270 - 320C. It can't be too low because the connection can fail just after. If the temperature is too high you will melt the wire insulation and causes wire oxidization. It means that a properly made joint requires some experience. Crimping process is faster and requires less experince (sorry dave.). As for the mechanical strength of, say, 14AWG wire connection - good, adhesive filled heatshrink tube will do just perfect to make such connection impenetrable to water. If you are still hesitant - use two tubes (the external one slightly longer). It works perfectly on cables 230,000V ( when submerged in 4ft of water) so .. I think it will work on 12V too. It will not only make the joint waterproof but also add mechanical strength to the exposed wires. Properly made soldered joint should survive many years.

This are my 2c.

PS - I wouldn't leave a crimmped connector without some sort of stiffening of the whole assembly.


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

Geez now the Canadians are slagging crimps and harping about solder. Who's next? Any Australians out there?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Crimping tools and Shrink tube source*

In my second career, I am a water well driller. I use alot of sta-con fittings and shrink tube. The best crimpers, in my experience are KLEIN pliers. Klein makes other hand tools, bit like Channel lock is known for their first and best. They do not strip, but they crimp both insulated and non-insulated fitting. They have excellent leverage and do a far better job than any crimper that is part of a stripping tool. Home Depot has 'em. On submersible pump cable, I use sta-cons. They are a continuous, or non-split barrel. Over that I use shrink tube with the adhesive in it. The shrink tube comes in various thicknesses and is good to 600 volts. I like the black, it's thicker. The clear is easier to center, not as thick, and easier to burn through. Both of these products are used for continuous submergence (30 yrs+) and work very well. Look for a water well/pump supplier in your area for them, or a driller would probably sell you some. I do not favor the plastic sheathed crimp fitting as the barrel is split on them and the plastic just holds water. Also, if you use good shrink tube over them, the heat rqrd to shrink the tubing melts the plastic also. The shrink tube, when cooled, does add some stiffness to the joint. While you're at the well supply house, pick up some Scotch 88 tape. It's the best, at about 5-7 dollars a roll, and is the only stuff that I've found that works in freezing temps. We used to use it before we went to shrink tube, and some guys still do. 3 wraps with the tape, over the sta-con, overlapping 1" on each wrap. Shrinks easier and faster. I rewired my Cal 21 last winter, and I ran everything in plastic conduit. Eliminates chafing in limber holes, you can stow gear on top of the conduit, and it keeps what wiring still in the bilges dry. Not that hard to do if you're doing the whole boat anyway.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Generally, I'd say the best crimping tools are the ratcheting kind. I got the one I use over at Home Depot for about half the price for the exact same tool at the marine stores. The crimp fittings with the adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing is key to well-protected connection in areas that have exposure to water. However, I highly recommend not running any wiring through the bilge. Doing so, and having any electrical current enter the bilge water can cause serious galvanic corrosion issues, that will rot out gear faster than just about anything else. 

The only problem with the ratchet-type crimp tools is their size. In some cases, they're too large to fit easily into the area you need to crimp a connection.


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## capn_dave (Feb 17, 2000)

*Dave and Dog Have It*

Right. Way back when I was on the ABYC electrical standards team. We hashed it over and over again and again. There is no doubt that a properly soldered connection is better than a properly crimped connection. 
Before I got into the boating industry I worked for Lear, and NASA all connections were soldered and had to be Inspected, for a proper connection. Remember flying machines shake and vibrate also. The consensus we came up with is It is eaiser to make a good crimp connection than a soldered one. For all the reasons mentioned by Dave and the Dog. I have seen so many slopy solder jobs done by so called pros it was a no brainer to make the crimp connection decision.

Fair Winds

Cap'n Dave


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*connections anyone can make*

not everyone has access to the professional tools to properly swage a connector on. most people have what is found in homer d poe or worst marine. the crimping most people do is nothing more than using a pair of pliers to crush a soft alloy around stranded wire, this is just a weak physical connecting that is eventually going to corrode and sever the connection. a good comprimise is to use the connector to hold the wire and solder to maintain the connection which in effect meets the standards mentioned in other posts. by stripping the wire just a little long to where the wire sticks out of the barrel just a little bit, then soldier the very end of the wire to the connector, then coating the connection with liquid electrical sealant intended for this purpose. please not this only works with tinned wire. untinned copper wire will corrode starting anywhere air or moisture comes into contact with the copper, then the corrosion wicks up inside of the insulation and can travel through the insulation from end to end.

good luck,

joey


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Joey, if you are going to solder the wires, adding a sloppily smashed crimp to the mix is just screwing around. It serves no purpose except to waste time and money and encourage the joint to fail by adding the weight of the crimp to it.

Better to just twist the wires together and solder them, then cover them over. Faster, cheaper, simpler, more reliable.

And while you can twist wires by hand, a lineman's dyke (plier) is the tool actually designed to do that.


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## Mechsmith (Jun 7, 2009)

I always use some form of corrosion inhibiter on all crimped joints. Silicon dielectric compound seems to work well. My personal preference is for the commercial "Anti Seize", availiable at any auto parts store. Supposed to be good for 50 years in salt water. Stick the wire into it first then crimp. Electricians also use a similar compound when dealing with aluminum wire.

In some 25 years of experience I can say that the "Anti Seize" has never failed. No joint protected by it has ever failed, whether it be electrical or mechanical.


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

well i use crimps and solder but i am weird. i use solder for big wires, as i dont have big crimpers. what i do heat the ring and fill it with solder, then i slightly tin the wire, just enough to get some flux on the wire, then i dip the wire into the hot solder and as soon as i see it penetrate the wire i take away the heat. then i use adhesive lined heat shrink to seal.
edit i have done big connections like this for 10 years, granted never on boats till a year or so ago. i have never had one fail, including on some pretty serious off road trucks that get plenty of vibration.

for small wire i use standard anchor crimps, not heat shrink ones. then i fill the ends of the crimps with liquid electric tape, let it dry, then apply another coat until i cant see the crimp anymore. i also coat the end of the sheath with the liquid tape to stop it from getting any moisture up inside the sheath


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## irwin325cc (Feb 11, 2009)

I am in agreement with what dave.verry said. As a HVAC man I deal with wire connecters all the time and the worst tool you can use would be the very thin crimper/stripper you get at the hardware stores as those do a worse job than just a pair of needle nose pliers in my opinion. The ratchet type are good, I use a set that electricans use they look like a pair of ***** but have several diffrent crimp slots for diffrent sized wires/connectors and are like a 1/4" or more thick instead of those cheap ones that are like 1/8". 
Adhesive shrink tape is a must also. Electric tape is a huge no no in the engine area as the heat and fumes will make nothing but an unraveling mess. 
Has anyone tryed using the liquid electric tape? I'm curious as to how well/messy it is.


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

irwin325cc said:


> Has anyone tryed using the liquid electric tape? I'm curious as to how well/messy it is.


i just posted that i use it. it is messy if your not careful, but you can use the messy side of it to make sure you got everything covered. be prepared to wipe up the sticky little drip strings that will happen. just dont put it on too thick it will take too long to dry, multiple thin coats is the trick to it. takes longer than heat shrink, but i think its better at sealing, esp if you dont use adhesive lined heat shrink.

now heat shrink is better for physical protection but the plastic on the crimp is even better. in the long run i would say there is no difference in quality or longevity of a liquid tape or adhesive lined heat shrink. its what makes you feel better


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jeez, I thought this subject was finished. It makes an argument about religion seem tame.

Excellent tutorial on wire termination with pictures so jorjo can understand by Mainesail All About Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com

Making battery cables also by Mainesail Making Your Own Battery Cables Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com

Wire size calculator - thanks Mainesail AWG by wire length/amps calculator

ABYC - segment of standards with wire ampacity table at bottom ABYC Wiring Standards

Link to a looong Sailnet thread on this very subject for those of you who would like to read more on this subject http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/40595-crimping-versus-soldering.html

Brian


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## fishermanjoe1 (Sep 30, 2012)

Hey guys, what do you think is the best quality crimper... Im in the market and I would like to get a very good quality crimper for heat shrink connections... I pretty much just use heat shrink connectors... Thanks for any input


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

Its all in this thread and the links.


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