# advice: sailboat for young family



## ShockandAwe (Sep 24, 2009)

I wanted to ask advice about what boat I might think of buying. I have sailed a bit - lasers, 420s, and have foredecked on J30s, J105s, and a Morgan 27. I've been out on a 505 once, too. I have not had a chance to sail in about 5 years as I have a very young family. I weigh in at 175 lbs. I live near the Potomac River and about 1.5 hours from the Chesapeake Bay. 

So, I've been pondering buying a boat. I investigates what fleets were at the nearest marina (Washington Sailing Marina). This narrowed my search down to the Buccaneer, Lightning and Albacore. (The laser, another fleet at the local marina, bores me to tears. I like a much more complex sailplan with lots of lines to fiddle with. And doodads. I like doodads, too.)

laser... *yawn*

My MO goes something like this. My family is too young to sail with
me at present. My wife has a bad stomach puke) and is out of the picture
although she is willing to let me buy something. (If I could get her over this with one of those electronic wrist gizmos I would love to sail with her.) My first child should be ready in a couple of years. I'm an awfully, awfully busy
guy and don't expect to live at the marina so don't have heaps of time
to cultivate a standing crew. I was hoping for a boat I could sail
alone until I can scrape a few friends together or get a kid to help.
I also have the idea that I may just actually want to sail alone
sometimes, too.

I also have this idea of taking a long daysail with some camping gear packed into the front of a boat... okay, well, maybe that is putting too much on this first boat purchase. But I could see working my way up the Chesapeake or the Patuxent River stopping at B&Bs each night. That would be a fun adventure! 

I read on the Albacore website that the boat tends to
turn turtle pretty quickly and needs 1.5 crew to right. I also read
about a guy that sailed all the way up the Patuxent in an Albacore by
himself in one. Sort of a puzzling contradiction there. The jury is still out on the Albacore.

I read on the Lightning website that it can be raced by 2 people ....
ah ha! I'm trying to put all of this together to
see if it could fit my needs, see. I think it may. I weigh in at
175 lbs. Could I do it? Could I sail this alone?

Another item is - how important is having a fleet? I *think* I want to occasionally race - nothing too serious though. Should I consider other boats like an O'day Daysailer? Given that I would like to maybe do gunk-hole cruising with my kid? What about a Lightning for such an expedition? 

One thing that sort of worries me is if I get a Bucc, say, and get it up and running. I then take my kid out for his first ride and dump it. Will I inoculate him against sailing forever? Me, I don't mind swimming a bit - but what of my wife or kids? 

Well, what do you think? I need some advise. In particular, what
have you seen of single sailors sailing the Lightning? the Bucc? Etc. Can it be done in
light airs? What about taking down the headsail and reefing the main? Could I then sail the Lightning, say, alone? What about family sailing? What about righting these boats? Can it be done by one man with a little kid floating nearby laughing at him... or do I need a standing crew of five swarthy, heavy-set, tattooed men to be ready every time I want to sail?

Thanks in advance!!

:thewave:


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## SecondWindNC (Dec 29, 2008)

You could also consider something like a Catalina 22 or 22 Sport. Could be sailed singlehanded, although you'd probably want at least one crew member for racing. They're very common, so you should be able to find a fleet, and you could certainly do some gunkholing/overnighting on the boat. There are quite a few boats that would fit this bill, although few as common as the C22.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Buccaneer 18 is too unstable for young kids or singlehanding in a breeze. We tried ours for sail camping, but it's incredibly wet and doesn't like weight in the ends. Fast, fun, and sedate enough in light air -- but a real battle above 12 knots. Terrific people in the class, tho, and a nice choice for OD racing.

Albacore is fun, a bit old-timey like the Thistle -- and like the Thistle, a real pain box. Lots of sharp edges: a choppy afternoon will leave you bruised in strange places.










Lots of Albacore sailors in the Mid-Atlantic states, with big turnouts at Governor's Cup regattas.

The Lightning is an awesome fit for you. It races with a crew of three, and powered up it's as fast as the Bucc. It'll really roll downwind. Tricked out for racing, it has a ridiculous number of strings and twings and GoFast things to play with. But because of its hard chine, it will sail flat and comfy with kids or when singlehanding if you match sail area to winds. It will settle down under a reef in a way the Bucc (with its soft chines) does not. The Lightning is a more versatile boat, suited to a greater range of wind and crewing situations. Not quite as easy to right if it does go over, tho -- tradeoff for the hard bilge. Huge, huge class with big events & top-flight sailors, but friendly to newbies.

Couple of other possibilities, more towards the camp-cruising/family end: O'Day Daysailors (as you mentioned), Rhodes 19, Flying Scot, Venture17 or SJ21 (dinghy-like keelboats). Gotta watch that draft on the East Coast, tho.


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## NaviGsr (Sep 17, 2009)

You seem to have very different wishes in your post. You sound a lot like a guy who wants the Porsche but knows he should get the Sedan.

A lightning is like a supercharged 420. It's a racing dingy, fast and fun. If you have an active class near you, you might get a lot of use out of it but would your family race it with you? And with your weight, you could never max out a lightning singlehanded.

A lightning is NOT a good boat for kids to learn sailing on because of how delicate handling all that power can be. Also, how could you ever take a lightning on an overnight?

If you want to race and cruise a little, you could look at something like a little C&C or a J24 if you want to go a bit bigger and bring the fam for weekend trips.

My personal choice for what your describing with young kids, a wife who gets a bit ill, AND you want to singlehand, would be a nice little centerboard catboat. Big, stable cockpit with high sides and some room up front for a cabin or some stowage for that camping gear (or space tuck in for the night.) It's a simple and forgiving boat that kids can easily learn on that still carries a lot of sail to move it along. It's so freakin' versatile, and you can just hop in, raise one sail and go! Shallow area? Just pull the board up!

I probably have a bit of bias being from New England, but I <3 catboats.










Whatever you pick, remember you want a boat you can share with your family. You can always race and fiddle with doo dads on other people's boats (and you would probably need to if you lack the crew to man your own)


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

If the OP yawns on a Laser, he'll drop dead of boredom on a catboat. Srsly. Freakin. Slow. Sounds to me like he wants a fun boat to singlehand or put together a racing crew, with possible kids aboard as they get older. Fun primary, family sailing secondary. He doubts the wife is in the picture no matter what.

I've sailed an old wooden Lightning in 30 knots, just two of us kids surfing down whitecaps and screaming our heads off. We never did capsize that sucker in two years of trying. When the wind piped up, we reefed the main and hanked on the jib stenciled "STORM" (probably a 90%, with a high foot) and kept sailing. I was twelve years old and ninety pounds. The Lightning has 130 lbs in the keel and is perfectly manageable singlehanded or with kids _if you match sail to conditions._ Kids aren't made of spun glass, you know. They like a thrill -- and as long as Daddy's smiling, they're fine.

You camp-cruise in a Lightning the same way you camp-cruise in any dinghy: tent, propane or gas stove, everything else in dry bags. Maybe a tarp to hang over the boom. Everything tied down in case you roll. It's a soggy minimalist business that gets old fast, and that's why we plumped for the SJ21.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I would go with a Flying Scot. Very stable, family friendly, yet technically challenging enough to keep it interesting (spinnaker). They have fleet racing down on the Potomac at WSM and at a number of other locations in the nearby Chesapeake vicinity. 

You can take your whole family in the Scot, or sail it alone. But unlike the Albacore you will have to try awfully hard to turtle it and even then you probably won't be able to. 

Check in with George down at Belle Haven Marina -- he may have some leads on used Scots.

Don't get an Albacore for family sailing, whatever you do...


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## ShockandAwe (Sep 24, 2009)

Wow! This is great, heady stuff! Holy smokes. I have got a lot of new ideas now. One thought I had was that my work does have a sailing club with a bigger boat that one can rent. (Windrose.) Meebee I could join that club and use that boat for my occasional big outing and buy a smaller boat for racing and fooling around. My club keeps its boats on the Chesapeak bay about 2 hours each way.  They also have flying scots so I can play with those potentially.

For the nearby club - if I want any racing at all - it is Albacore, Lightning, Laser/Byte, Buccs, and Hampton One Design (whatever that is). I'm not ultra-keen on racing just now but could really like to have a boat that I could take racing if the spirit moves me. 

What I see myself doing in the near-term is sailing alone or with a friend or kid. So, what I want to get clear on is this:

Can I single-hand a lightning? Can I just leave the jib in the hold, shorten the main and sail it? I figure I could have two sets of sails. One for cruising, daysailing and potting about by myself and one that is a competitive set. The daysailing sails could be a smallish jib together with a main with reefs. What say? Possible? 

Now that the idea of renting the Windrose for longer outings is on the table, perhaps this opens up the Lightning for some more thought.

Hey NaviGsr, that catboat picture sure is beautiful! Really nice! Really romantic looking job.


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## ShockandAwe (Sep 24, 2009)

I got a PM from Gary who suggested the Thistle. I could not reply as I am SO junior on the site. (You can't PM until you have five posts.) Anyhoo, the Thistle is another idea along the lines of the Lightning I guess? I looked at the class website and the first line of the boat description is...

"The Thistle is a high performance one design racing sailboat that is generally sailed with a three person crew. "

I am thinking "Hey, great. If I just want to go for a sail, I have to manage to round up two other experienced sailers and deal with all of their noise and issues." 

I don't know. I'm feeling pretty confused about this. I had been thinking that something that was smallish would need less crew. I remember sailing the Morgan 27 with three hands. Why the heck does a tiny Thistle need three hands to sail it? 

Ugh.


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## ShockandAwe (Sep 24, 2009)

Yeah. You know, the entire "...sailed with a three person crew" bit really does seem to put me off of my feed. My idea of sailing is sort of communing with nature. I can certainly feature getting back into some racing but, for now, I mostly just want to share some cool experiences with my little kids as they grow up... and maybe, just maybe enticing my wife onto the dang thing. 

Just the idea of having to get on the phone and start dialing my way through the marina crew list just to go for a quick sail is a real bummer of an idea for me.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

In working my way UP from a race-dingy to a V-18 to a J24 back to a Holder 14 and than back to a J24 and working on a Cal 29 

I got a wife (married 28 years) that can take or leave sailing and two childern 21 and 24 that have the time here and there 

Theres NO getting past a wife that does not like sailing and believe me her feelings rub off on the childern when there young


I should have got the Laser in 08 BUT it cost more than the race ready J24 i found BUt the finding crew thing has been a PITA and i am allways tracking down Juniors to sail the boat


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> Yeah. You know, the entire "...sailed with a three person crew" bit really does seem to put me off of my feed. My idea of sailing is sort of communing with nature. I can certainly feature getting back into some racing but, for now, I mostly just want to share some cool experiences with my little kids as they grow up... and maybe, just maybe enticing my wife onto the dang thing.
> 
> Just the idea of having to get on the phone and start dialing my way through the marina crew list just to go for a quick sail is a real bummer of an idea for me.


Example: On the Catalina 22, it would be difficult to race fast without crew. However, I can easly single hand or day sail with novice crew. It is just a matter of not being able to do multiple tasks simultaneously that makes a larger crew necessary for racing (especially if flying the spinnaker!). Maybe larger centerboard boats really need the crew to keep it flat.


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## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

JohnRPollard said:


> I would go with a Flying Scot. Very stable, family friendly, yet technically challenging enough to keep it interesting (spinnaker). They have fleet racing down on the Potomac at WSM and at a number of other locations in the nearby Chesapeake vicinity.
> 
> You can take your whole family in the Scot, or sail it alone. But unlike the Albacore you will have to try awfully hard to turtle it and even then you probably won't be able to.
> 
> ...


I think that much of the advice given in the replies is good. Bobmc has some good points that match my knowledge. From my vantage point, I have to say John summed it up perfectly. Scot is a great boat for what you are looking for. Much more comfortable than a Thistle, easier to singlehand than a Lightning, and more stable than a Bucc. My kids 3 and 5 do pretty well on the Scot as long as I don't heel too much. Only note I will make is it is not a light air boat. The Thistles and Lightnings fly past me on light days...


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Thistle is a brute. Huge mainsail, skinny rails, no deck so if it swamps or capsizes, S.O.L. Not a good boat for singlehanding, and deeply uncomfortable for pottering about in. But for racing in a light-air venue, it's the best. Lightning has most of the Thistle's good qualities while being easier to depower.

All the boats under discussion have fractional rigs w/ very small jibs. You can usually leave the headsail out when the wind picks up, unless it gets really nasty. The Bucc sails well on jib only, but it's wretched on main only because of weather helm. A single suit of sails should do you; if the main doesn't already have a deep (~40") reef, it's very easy to add one, along with jiffy reefing hardware to make shortening sail a one-person, 15-second task.

You can singlehand a Lightning to 20+ knots on jib and reefed main, if you hike hard and sail the main a bit soft in the luff. A Flying Scot would handle those winds with equal aplomb: more sail, less ballast, but a heavier boat overall. Thistle and Bucc ... not so happy.

I like your plan of a zippy boat for you and the club's Windrose for family outings. Trying to make one boat cover all your needs would be tough below 24 feet. And sloops don't get much more sedate or stable or reassuring than a Windrose.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

A comment or two on Lightnings.
I've owned one for 2 seasons of sailing with my wife mostly, who is not an experienced sailor so I usually keep the boat fairly flat by spilling some air out of the main (luffing) and/or heading up into the gusts. I also would not take her out on it in 15 knot or more winds. I have had a total of 4 adults on board on several occasions.
I have also taken an old sailing buddy out on this boat and had a blast; flying the spinnaker, planing and generally tempting fate. This boat also can still sail in the lightest of breezes. 
A Lightning that is tricked out for racing (like mine) has a ton of control lines to play with. This makes the cockpit kind of a busy place and not the best place for young kids, IMHO. My boat came with 2 complete sets of sails and several times I wished I had reef points for the main sail. I could have taken one of the mains to sail maker and had them installed but it is a racing boat so most boats will not come with a reef in the main.
Lastly, stepping/un-stepping the mast is a PITA and nearly impossible for one person without a crane - normally a 3 person job. If you can 'dry sail' it (keep it set up on a trailer by a ramp) then it is not an issue.
The Lightning is a thorough bred racer but can be sailed much more conservatively if you know how.
Good luck.


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## ShockandAwe (Sep 24, 2009)

So here is what I think I heard. One can totally depower and sail flat a lightning. One could get a Main that is reefable and a shorty storm jib and sail it solo? This is a critical issue. If I cannot solo a boat , I'm not buying the boat. It isn't clear that I will be able to find even railmeat crew and I may actually want to solo.

So, can someone clarify for me this one question. Can a lightning be sailed solo if the correct sails are chosen and the boat is sailed conservatively? Can a lightning be righted from capsize be a lone 175 lb man?

Thanks so much for this great feedback one and all!!



CalebD said:


> A comment or two on Lightnings.
> I've owned one for 2 seasons of sailing with my wife mostly, who is not an experienced sailor so I usually keep the boat fairly flat by spilling some air out of the main (luffing) and/or heading up into the gusts. I also would not take her out on it in 15 knot or more winds. I have had a total of 4 adults on board on several occasions.
> I have also taken an old sailing buddy out on this boat and had a blast; flying the spinnaker, planing and generally tempting fate. This boat also can still sail in the lightest of breezes.
> A Lightning that is tricked out for racing (like mine) has a ton of control lines to play with. This makes the cockpit kind of a busy place and not the best place for young kids, IMHO. My boat came with 2 complete sets of sails and several times I wished I had reef points for the main sail. I could have taken one of the mains to sail maker and had them installed but it is a racing boat so most boats will not come with a reef in the main.
> ...


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*Go with the Scot*

Hi there --

Based on everything you've said so far, I'd steer away from a Lightning and look at the Scot. Lightnings are great, proven designs, but as others have pointed out, they're racing boats. If you're mostly going to be sailing single-handed or with inexperienced crew or the family, I don't know why you'd want all the go-fast stuff that Lightnings offer. A Scot, on the other hand, is easy to single-hand and very stable. After some experience with it, you can be comfortable going out solo in winds up to, say, 15 ... which gives you a lot of sailing opportunities. Add another body in the form of experienced crew and you can go out in more than that. And if you find you WANT to race it, you'll find it challenging, and possible with only one crew.

Kurt


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## lporcano (Feb 20, 2003)

chauhttp://35knots.com


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## ShockandAwe (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks all! About the Scot. I see what you all are saying in recommending it - and the Thistle. However, I had been trying to work with the fleets that I have easy access to at the marina that is about 1/2 hour away. The fleets they have are Buccaneer, Hampton One Design, Lightning, Laser/Byte and some sort of absurd pontoon boat. Not much to select from there. I guess, for me, it kind of boils down to the Bucc vs. the Lightning. IF it is important to have a fleet to be a part of. 

The good news is that I have potential access to a big windrose (I have to get rated on it but don't anticipate a problem) and a bunch of Scots through my work's club. The club is a good two-hour drive away and I am time starved so I was thinking to use the nearer marina - thus the Bucc Vs. Lightning trope. 

I think what I hear folks saying is that if it boiled down to Bucc Vs. Lightning for my purposes, I should go with the Lightning. One thing I want to clear up is righting a capsized Lightning. Can that be done singlehanded? 

Again, thank you all for your advice. I'm lovin' it!


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## ShockandAwe (Sep 24, 2009)

bobmcgov said:


> All the boats under discussion have fractional rigs w/ very small jibs. You can usually leave the headsail out when the wind picks up, unless it gets really nasty. The Bucc sails well on jib only, but it's wretched on main only because of weather helm. A single suit of sails should do you; if the main doesn't already have a deep (~40") reef, it's very easy to add one, along with jiffy reefing hardware to make shortening sail a one-person, 15-second task.


I wanted to ask about the paragraph above. What is a fractional rig? Thanks for the good advice on how to fix up the Lightning to use single-handed. Could you discuss righting a capsized Lightning? Thanks!



By the way, that is a beautiful picture of the Thistle you posted! Man that looks like some fun!


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*One more thought*

Now that you've narrowed it down to Bucc v. Lightning, I'd recommend going with the Lightning. You can singlehand it and it's more accomodating and less athletic than the Bucc.

By the way, a fractional rig has a forestay that extends partway up the mast, instead of all the way to the masthead. The result, usually, is a jib considerably smaller in area than the main.

Kurt


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I've gotta say that I never tipped my Lightning over so I can't comment on righting it solo. 
The center board weighs something like 250#s so if it did go over you want to get her headed into the wind and stand on the center board (like a Sunfish or Laser). Add your 175#s and you have nearly 450#s of righting pressure on a boat that is supposed to weigh about 700#s. 
There also should be positive flotation in the gunnels (under the seats) so even if it does swamp it wont sink. You can probably add more flotation with empty 1/2 gallon milk bottles with screw on tops.
Ours did tip over once when it got away from me while beached while a thunder storm blew in. The mast got stuck in the mud in about 5' of water. I had to wait for the tide to go out about 4' and came back with shovels and pitch forks. It was not pretty but we righted her. That was the first time I launched the boat; many humbling lessons learned that day.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

*Racing vs soloing*

When you read the lightning or thistle is raced with a crew of 3, that does not mean it can't be sailed solo it means you would want 3 people to act as moveable ballast to keep the boat flat relative to the sail area you have up, and pull all the lines at the right time to make the boat go fast in a competitive way. That does not mean you can't solo that boat you just can't compete against 3 other sailors on another boat while solo.

I think you have two options buy the boat you want to race. Make a commitment to race and show up each race day, buy the first round for your crew after a race, buy lots of beer after a win and you should not have trouble finding crew. If you only race when your busy schedule allows it you will be racing solo against 3 person boats or recruiting anyone standing around at the marina on race nights, not the way to garner bullets.

If you can't commit to racing on a regular basis just buy a fun boat for camping and soloing and race other peoples boats, its cheaper that way plus they have to buy the first round. Hope that your family will join you on your boat. I agree the Catalina 22 would be a good choice, plenty of 20-22footers to choose from though; you may be able to race it in PHRF races, take it for short cruises and maybe get the family involved.

In your shoes I would be looking to arrange my schedule to race and buy myself a lightning.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

ShockandAwe said:


> I had been trying to work with the fleets that I have easy access to at the marina that is about 1/2 hour away. The fleets they have are Buccaneer, Hampton One Design, Lightning, Laser/Byte and some sort of absurd pontoon boat. Not much to select from there. I guess, for me, it kind of boils down to the Bucc vs. the Lightning. IF it is important to have a fleet to be a part of.


It might be really good to visit each of the One Design fleets and see if they are your kind of pipples before choosing a boat. I know the Bucc folks there via interwebs, and they are a fine bunch. I've never heard a bad word against Lightning people. Folks who sail vintage dinghies aren't real pretentious. You will certainly catch a ride or six, letting you test drive the boat and the fleet at the same time.

ETA: A slightly better Bucc18 video effort -- and some honking winds. Was blowing 20-25 mph on the lake today; we reached back and forth a few times, including one power reach with the jib out where we were simply blasting. Forgot the GPS for a speedo, darn it.


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## ShockandAwe (Sep 24, 2009)

NaviGsr said:


> You seem to have very different wishes in your post. You sound a lot like a guy who wants the Porsche but knows he should get the Sedan.


Well, you certainly nailed me there. I wanted a mini Cooper but I drive a mini Van. Ah, well. One day I will get my mini Cooper.


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## jkeane22 (Jul 1, 2012)

Hello! I found your thread today, and I'm wondering what you bought and how is it going? I'm thinking if getting something pretty much just like you were in this thread, and the Lightning was the first boat my Dad ever took me out in almost 40 years ago. I havent been in one since then, but I've seen them around and may take the plunge.

Jim


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Harbor 20 might be a solution.

Designed to single hand
Stable and dry
Great for 'date night' sailing

Fastest growing fleet in Annapolis

Harbot20.org


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## jkeane22 (Jul 1, 2012)

The Harbor 20 looks absolutely perfect, though there aren't many or any that I can find around Lake michigan so i couldnt really try it out by renting etc. There is a decent sized fleet of J/22s in Chicago, and they're easy to rent - I will check those out. Do you know that boat? Would that work as a leisure daysailer? have pretty much the same situation as the OP except probably I wouldnt overnite. I want a small trailer-ready sloop that I can single-hand, as well as bring along family and friends who may or may not be sailors, not looking to race every week but I'm sure I would appreciate some liveliness.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Yes, a J22 will work well. Go sail one. If you like it, you like it. If you don't, you don't.


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