# Gulf of Mexico oil spill



## QuickMick

any of you guys down in the gulf? while im sure news reports are always accurate... har-t-har har... just wondered if i could get a locals perspective on the situation, as it doesnt look good. from what i gathered if the latest attempt to shut that off fails, the next fix will take two weeks to even attempt!!


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## nolatom

There's talk of trying to burn it off, but supposedly they'd have to contain it with fireproof boom first?

Whether for booming, containment, or skimming/recovery offshore, the forecast for end of this week is really the worst, strong onshore winds and high seas Fri and Sat at least:

National Weather Service Marine Forecast

Hard to contain anything in those seas. The river delta, Breton Sound areas are in the cross-hairs in SE wind, and Miss. Sound in S wind. I hope they can get the BOP to close, because the other possible solutions would take much longer. Hurricane season starts June 1, by the way.

This is such a boring town to live in.....


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## sailingdog

Any way you look at this, it ain't good.


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## jaschrumpf

Has there been any speculation about sabotage/bombing yet?

I mean, besides by me?


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## QuickMick

jaschrumpf said:


> Has there been any speculation about sabotage/bombing yet?
> 
> I mean, besides by me?


uhhh... maybe the john birch society? lol... j/k

Ive never heard of the 'burn off' method ever being attempted before... esp. considering at 20 mi offshore it could wash up afire! oh wait, they are going to corral the thicker stuff and tow it out.... sounds like an idea that Dr. Klodge (the PO of my boat) would come up with....


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## jumaggafanny

A flyover on Tuesday, April 27 at 5:00 p.m. (CST) showed a rainbow sheen approximately 600 miles in circumference with areas of emulsified crude. The edge of the sheen is approximately 23 miles off the coast of Louisiana. 

More than 76,580 feet of boom (barrier) has been assigned to contain the spill. An additional 167,220 feet is available and 385,080 feet has been ordered. 

To date, the oil spill response team has recovered 6,206 barrels (260,652 gallons) of an oil-water mix. Vessels are in place and continuing recovery operations. 

70 response vessels are being used including skimmers, tugs, barges and recovery vessels. 

64,748 gallons of dispersant have been deployed and an additional 110,960 gallons are available. 

Five staging areas are in place and ready to protect sensitive shorelines. These areas include: 

Biloxi, Miss., Pensacola, Fla. Venice, La., Pascagoula, Miss., and Theodore, Ala.


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## jumaggafanny

Release date: 26 April 2010 
BP is accelerating offshore oil recovery and continuing well control efforts in Mississippi Canyon Block 252 (MC252) following improvements in weather conditions in the Gulf of Mexico yesterday. 

"The safety of the people working offshore is our top priority and the improved weather has created better conditions for our response," said BP Group Chief Executive Tony Hayward. "This, combined with the light, thin oil we are dealing with has further increased our confidence that we can tackle this spill offshore." 
BP, operating with the U.S. Coast Guard and other agencies, has launched its comprehensive, pre-approved oil spill response plan following the April 22 sinking of the Transocean Deepwater Horizon drilling rig 130 miles south-east of New Orleans. 

According to National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) experts participating in the spill response, the spill is "very thin" and consists of "97 per cent sheen." 

In Houma, Louisiana where the field operations response is being coordinated, more than 1,000 personnel on and offshore are deployed to coordinate the oil spill response. 
BP, as lease operator of MC252, also continues to work below the surface on Transocean’s subsea equipment using remotely operated vehicles to monitor the Macondo/MC252 exploration well, and is working to activate the blow-out preventer. 

The Transocean drilling rig Development Driller III will arrive on location today to drill the first of two relief wells to permanently secure the well. A second drilling rig, Transocean’s Discoverer Enterprise, is en route.


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## jumaggafanny

I sail the Mississippi Gulf coast out of Bay St. Louis and I'm not real concerned about this (97% sheen) Oil spill right now. 
If you like yur crab legs dipped in butter then there may be a silver lining to the oil spill...
I'm kind of hoping for changing wind conditions soon!!


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## sahara

jaschrumpf said:


> Has there been any speculation about sabotage/bombing yet?
> 
> I mean, besides by me?


None whatsoever that I've heard. In deep, overpressured wells, well control is always an issue. Add that the BOP equipment is 5,000' under the rig floor, and stuff gets complicated.

In the 1980's I was MMS (minerals management service) certified for well control supervision for both surface and subsea stacks, but at the time we were dealing with a few hundred feet of water depth. Nothing at all like the water depths they are dealing with here.

It certainly appears that either the pipe rams are closed or the well has bridged off, because if it was wide open it would be spewing a lot more oil and gas. I suspect that the current attempts to work the BOP are to close the shear rams, designed to sever the drill pipe and completely close in the well. Success will depend on how much junk is around the wellhead, and whether the well control equipment has been damaged by falling debris.

If closing the shear rams is successful, then there would be a lingering concern about pressure buildup from gas under the wellhead while awaiting kill operations.

This is terribly sad, 11 men have lost their lives, and their families have lost husbands and fathers. We must certainly hope that environmental damage can be minimized.


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## jumaggafanny

The last I've been told, 

Valve was damaged, does not look good. 

Looks like they may have to use the containment domes.


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## CalebD

jaschrumpf said:


> Has there been any speculation about sabotage/bombing yet?
> 
> I mean, besides by me?


This thought crossed my mind but I would find this really hard to believe. From what I gather about the people that work these platforms I would say that they are generally a pretty tough, hard working, hard partying bunch. With 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off they work their butts off for 2 weeks and have 2 weeks to relax and do whatever. I would more likely suspect a gas leak and someone lighting up a cigarette as the cause but we will likely never know for sure.
It is kind of ironic that some of these platforms have survived (albeit slightly damaged) hurricanes and this one explodes in seemingly average weather.


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## Maverick1958

I can't say for anywhere else, but here in Texas you would never know if it wasn't for the news.


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## fjon

jumaggafanny said:


> Release date: 26 April 2010
> BP is accelerating offshore oil recovery and continuing well control efforts in Mississippi Canyon Block 252 (MC252) following improvements in weather conditions in the Gulf of Mexico yesterday.
> 
> "The safety of the people working offshore is our top priority and the improved weather has created better conditions for our response," said BP Group Chief Executive Tony Hayward. "This, combined with the light, thin oil we are dealing with has further increased our confidence that we can tackle this spill offshore."
> BP, operating with the U.S. Coast Guard and other agencies, has launched its comprehensive, pre-approved oil spill response plan following the April 22 sinking of the Transocean Deepwater Horizon drilling rig 130 miles south-east of New Orleans.
> 
> According to National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) experts participating in the spill response, the spill is "very thin" and consists of "97 per cent sheen."
> 
> In Houma, Louisiana where the field operations response is being coordinated, more than 1,000 personnel on and offshore are deployed to coordinate the oil spill response.
> BP, as lease operator of MC252, also continues to work below the surface on Transocean's subsea equipment using remotely operated vehicles to monitor the Macondo/MC252 exploration well, and is working to activate the blow-out preventer.
> 
> The Transocean drilling rig Development Driller III will arrive on location today to drill the first of two relief wells to permanently secure the well. A second drilling rig, Transocean's Discoverer Enterprise, is en route.


Well, BP is the _environmentalist oil company_ (if one were foolish enough to believe their false flag marketing) was the worst offender on bad maintenance in Alaska, where one of their pipelines had a big spill a few years back. Once again we find that they are the greatest threat to the environment.

To boot, the administration just approved long-proposed operations of offshore drilling in large swaths of the US coast. Ugh! So where's our big investment in renewal energy? Sure, we are clever animals and can construct amazing machinery to exploit the planet, but I feel sure, we will all perish, as these systems we have come to rely on all crumble one by one, for lack of proper maintenance, for a myriad of reasons. Satellites will cease functioning, disrupting communications and navigation. Big steel machines will corrode and fail from cost cutting in maintenance to maximize profits for the next 3 months, to please Wall Street. Entropy and loss of social cohesion will force all action into the near future and the ten year plans be damned.

If Lou'ziana is the waste portal for the US mainland, the "A" hole for future reference, then the Gulf of Mexico must be the toilet bowl. Standard Oil used to control the state, and the oil cartel still does I think. Condolences to sailors and residents of the oil coast in the gulf. I hope you/we get a benevolent outcome, but it don't look good.


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## soulfinger

This is a worst-case scenario in the sense that the multiply redundant BOP systems seemed to have all failed. Deepwater exploration is challenging for sure (I do this for a living), but occurrences like this are very rare. BP's safety record is abysmal though, corporation wide. From an environmental standpoint, this is very bad, to be sure, though I saw some data that suggests the amount of oil flowing into the gulf waters right now is only like 25% more than the natural seepage the occurs. The high temperatures and natural oil-eating bacteria will do most of the cleanup work. Let's just hope they get the well shut off soon.


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## T37SOLARE

This is looking to be one of the largest environmental disaster in the history of our planet.

The well is leaking a minimum of 40,000-50,000 gal a day and they are now saying it's going to take a minimum of 4-8 weeks to stop the leak. That's 2-3 million more gallons of oil into the Gulf of Mexico. Look for oil on all the Gulf State coasts including western Florida and the Keys, plus the oil will be in the Gulf Stream, bringing it up the US eastern coast as well as the potential of the Atlantic European coasts & beyond.

Drill baby drill.....


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## T37SOLARE

Update:
They just found a third leak and have increased the estimated daily spill up to 200,000 gallons a day.



> (CNN) -- The oil spill from last week's deadly rig explosion in the Gulf of Mexico has increased to 5,000 barrels a day -- five times more than the original estimate, said Coast Guard Rear Adm. Mary Landry.
> 
> A third underwater oil leak has been located in the pipeline that connected the rig to the oil well, said Doug Suttles, chief operating officer for BP.


Drill baby drill...


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## jumaggafanny

Gulf of Mexico-Transocean Drilling Incident

updated information is available here complete w/maps and the efforts to contain. The containment domes are pictured and being deployed.


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## LauderBoy

Really sad event. Interestingly enough this event has caused the Governor of Florida to reverse his support for offshore drilling off of Florida.


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## remetau

LauderBoy said:


> Really sad event. Interestingly enough this event has caused the Governor of Florida to reverse his support for offshore drilling off of Florida.


Thankfully!

Hopefully they will abandon the idea of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge too.


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## k1vsk

remetau said:


> Thankfully!
> 
> Hopefully they will abandon the idea of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge too.


Just as soon as we all stop driving petroleum fueled cars, stop heating our homes, using electricity, etc... *The problem isn't "they" - it's us.*


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## EpicAdventure

k1vsk said:


> Just as soon as we all stop driving petroleum fueled cars, stop heating our homes, using electricity, etc... *The problem isn't "they" - it's us.*


Maybe we should abandon all of our cars, heated/airconditioned homes, return to living in mud huts, and walk everywhere.

Technology and human progress is an awfully tricky double edged sword.


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## QuickMick

maybe we should just strive for some responsibility...
wheather the economy expands or contracts the garbage dump always gets bigger,
though i must admit energy efficiency has continued to improve, and the percentage of disposable income spent on it has done nothing but go down since the 70's


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## remetau

EpicAdventure said:


> Maybe we should abandon all of our cars, heated/airconditioned homes, return to living in mud huts, and walk everywhere.
> 
> Technology and human progress is an awfully tricky double edged sword.


It seems that the only thing we are progressing to is our own demise.


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## EpicAdventure

A solution would be a big tax on petroleum products. A $10/gallon would certainly reduce our consumption.

But will you vote for it? and enough other people for it to get passed? 

Can't have your cake and eat it too... or something like that.

I struggle with the issue myself. I love modern technology (sailboats, computers, cars, heated home, etc.) that makes my life comfortable but at the same time I love pristine nature. It's impossible to have extremes of both at the same time -- all compromises.


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## sailguy40

ROSA said:


> We are in Slidell, LA, on Lake Pontchartrain. I have a somewhat inside track from friends formerly with Exxon. The concerns to the environment are extreme in their view. They are expecting the worst, especially concerning the off shore islands and the National Sea Shore, unless something changes really soon.
> 
> Even if it turns in our favor now there will be devastation to that which will never recover.
> 
> We are not far from the spill slick at all, maybe 100 miles, and with SE winds returning soon it will be heading to our home area. Ironically, we were planning a 2 week trip to the Chandeleur Islands this coming weekend. It was to be our first, as waters there are quite thin. A friend was going to lead us in. The trip is now off, and we will probably never see it as it once was.


I live in the n.o. area and I am like disturbed out of my mind over this. I realized just how bad it was when I was smelling the oil in the air today on the westbank, metairie and harahan. I could hardley read some stuff online tonight about it such as this Oil Spill Reaches Mississippi River - CBS News Just look what it says about the marine life, its painful to even read it. All those beautiful dolphins, shore birds and even the state's pelican. I mean WTF are we going to have our beautiful gulf islands, grand isle, and whatever else turned into a oil soaked mess? I have went to grand isle about a year ago and it was more beautiful then I had ever seen. Is it going to change now? I have not even seen some of these places yet and I did want to go to the chandeleur islands. What about my cat island trip? Not to mention what about all of the marine life that we all like to see when we go on the water? I am a photographer and kayaker as well as a sailor. I know the fishermen are effected but so am I. I love my second word (the water) and all I know it for is getting destroyed. This hurts me as I enjoy taking video and pics of all the wildlife I see when I go on the water. Not to mention the beautiful scenery such as white beaches. What about the water, is it going to be oil saturated surf near the beach? I feel as if someone just poored oil all over my personal hometown paradise and all its natural beauty.


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## GraemeInCanada

I'm amazed at the amount of destruction that will come out of this. The way it's going now they won't have that closed off for weeks.. 200 gallons a day? That's one heck of a lot of oil that will now wash out all over the east coast, head south and ruin pretty much every island around that area. I can't even imagine what it will be like one month from now, every beach off limits because it's coated in toxic oil?

Of course, expect BP to fight it all the way despite a class action lawsuit already in place for damages done to particular industries. Sad sad sad..

If ANYTHING good comes out of this it should be the wake up call that you can't just drill anywhere and drill irresponsibly. Valdez, Alaska tundra issue, Texas explosion and all the others that aren't just BP have yet to tell people that the industry doesn't care whatsoever about the environment and will fight tooth and nail to not have to pain a penny for cleanup or damage done, even lives lost... Can anybody explain why the government didn't move much much faster on the issue?

Here's an article that a friend sent to me actually, slightly informational I think: Oil spill from BP explosion spreads in Gulf of Mexico


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## sailguy40

GraemeInCanada said:


> I'm amazed at the amount of destruction that will come out of this. The way it's going now they won't have that closed off for weeks.. 200 gallons a day? That's one heck of a lot of oil that will now wash out all over the east coast, head south and ruin pretty much every island around that area. I can't even imagine what it will be like one month from now, every beach off limits because it's coated in toxic oil?
> 
> Of course, expect BP to fight it all the way despite a class action lawsuit already in place for damages done to particular industries. Sad sad sad..
> 
> If ANYTHING good comes out of this it should be the wake up call that you can't just drill anywhere and drill irresponsibly. Valdez, Alaska tundra issue, Texas explosion and all the others that aren't just BP have yet to tell people that the industry doesn't care whatsoever about the environment and will fight tooth and nail to not have to pain a penny for cleanup or damage done, even lives lost... Can anybody explain why the government didn't move much much faster on the issue?
> 
> Here's an article that a friend sent to me actually, slightly informational I think: Oil spill from BP explosion spreads in Gulf of Mexico


Well said and I want to add that explosion is something that could have been prevented. It appears BP was irresponsible for the safe operation of that rig to allow such a horrible disaster to unfold. In addition, what about the 11 men who were killed during the explosion and their families? A small oil spill is one thing, this is a huge national disaster.


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## CalebD

Sailguy40,
I feel your pain. 
Human beings a have been in control for quite a while now and have a proven track record of trashing the environment for elusive profit dating back to the early damming of rivers and gold and silver mining in the Rockies. The Shad (fish) only run in some major east coast rivers now and there are some troutless streams in Colorado because of those activities. Then there is the coal that used to be in the ground in West Virginia that ended up as acid rain in the lakes of the north east, the plastic and now more oil in the oceans and especially your beautiful Gulf waters south of NOLA. 
Isn't there a canal in the city of New Orleans called the Industrial Canal? Hmmm.
Don't jump off a bridge just yet as a couple of good hurricanes could mix things up quite a bit. Besides, isn't there already a 'dead zone' in the summer in the Gulf at the mouth of the Miss. river? We seem to keep dumping **** into the ocean.
Depressing? Yes. I feel for you. It probably would not cheer you up to think that all the way to Florida and beyond may get some oil but at least you know that others will be sharing in your misery unless there is one huge fire in the Gulf tonight.


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## sailguy40

I am sure it will eventually destroy most of our gulf coast as we know it. I just heard on the news, some oil had already reached the mouth of the mississippi river. What is next? Don't even tell me we will get some in our lake ponchartrain! They never said anything about the lake but hey its water and it leads right into the rigolets which leads to the gulf. So it seems to me the oil can indeed find its way in if given the right conditions.


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## Curt

Think we will be coming down that way in two weeks and see about doing some volunteer work on the shorelines. The way it sounds each passing day will be compounding the problem threefold. I am unclear as to why the oil at depth still comes to the surface. Seems like the pressure would keep it on the bottom.


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## chrisncate

...


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## PalmettoSailor

EpicAdventure said:


> Maybe we should abandon all of our cars, heated/airconditioned homes, return to living in mud huts, and walk everywhere.
> 
> Technology and human progress is an awfully tricky double edged sword.


Amen, there is no easy answer.

Car companies are putting out "clean" electric cars -- Ha, what's that "clean" car plugged into? A coal fired power plant thats what.

Solar? If we start producing solar panels on an order of magnitude to provide a significant portion of the planets power needs, you can bet some place will be strip mined for materials to make the panels and batteries are about as toxic a concoction as you could come up with.

Wind farms destroy viewsheds and pose threats to migrating birds.

Individuals buying a "clean" electric car, or even "going off the grid" may feel superior to the rest of us, but the truth is there is no free lunch.

That said, I think we can, and have to, do better at anticipating and preparing for foreseeable disasters. The oil industry should be prepared with the technology, plans and have resources at hand to cap a well in the worst case scenario. That comes at a cost and we'd all pay it in increased fuel costs, but as someone else mentioned, its a cost I'd be willing to bear to avoid the sort of devastation that will soon be visited on the gulf coast.


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## sailingdog

The "sonic" switch that could have stopped all this costs only $500,000 or so.... what has the cleanup cost so far? $6,000,000 and counting... seems like a no-brainer to me... and that isn't even counting the environmental costs that are about to be paid...

Since corporations want the right to be considered individuals, maybe they should have all the rights and responsibilities that go along with that. No more limited liability for corporations-make them responsible for their actions. And when, not if, they get caught breaking the law, put their board of directors, the CEO, COO, and CFO in jail and make them pay the fines....just like the rest of us have to do.



midlifesailor said:


> Amen, there is no easy answer.
> 
> Car companies are putting out "clean" electric cars -- Ha, what's that "clean" car plugged into? A coal fired power plant thats what.
> 
> Solar? If we start producing solar panels on an order of magnitude to provide a significant portion of the planets power needs, you can be some place will be strip mined for materials to make the panels and batteries are about as toxic a concoction as you could come up with.
> 
> Wind farms destroy viewsheds and pose threats to migrating birds.
> 
> Individuals buying a "clean" electric car, or even "going off the grid" may feel superior to the rest of us, but the truth is there is no free lunch.
> 
> That said, I think we can, and have to, do better at anticipating and preparing for foreseeable disasters. The oil industry should be prepared with the technology, plans and have resources at hand to cap a well in the worst case scenario. That comes at a cost and we'd all pay it in increased fuel costs, but as someone else mentioned, its a cost I'd be willing to bear to avoid the sort of devastation that will soon be visited on the gulf coast.


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## remetau

As k1vsk mentioned earlier, it is *us* that is causing the problems. We the people keep increasing our demand for electricity and cheap oil. I too blame the companies, but it is mostly our fault. Hopefully everybody will begin to see what this way of life does to this planet. All the conveniences and technologies that we have that were supposed to make life easier, but they just seem to go against life. We have to work much harder and longer for things that we actually could live without. All this and we get mining, stripping, pollution, waste, oil slicks and fires, nuclear waste, etc. that not only kills our environment but us along with it.


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## bljones

Just to provide a little persepective, and not to downplay the current catastrophe, but this is NOT the biggest spill in GOM history. In fact, at 5000 barrels a day, ti doesn't even come close to Ixtoc I, which dumped at least twice that much oil into the gulf for more than nine months.

In fact, at 5000 barrels a day, it would take 15 days of spill to fill a WW II T-2 Tanker.
26 of them sank in the Gulf during World War II.
Yeah it's big, yeah it's a problem, but the Gulf has faced bigger badder problems before that no one even remembers, because the gulf bounced back.


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## QuickMick

somehow i still dont feel any better....


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## bljones

Yes, hysteria and impotent outrage is a much better reaction. 


Anybody down on the La. coast volunteering for clean-up?


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## mdbee

*Sabotage? SWAT teams?*

In reference to an earlier comment:

"Mr. Obama said SWAT teams were being dispatched to the Gulf to investigate oil rigs and said his administration is now working to determine the cause of the disaster. "

Oil Spill Reaches Mississippi River - CBS News

I'm not sure why a SWAT team would help, unless it was to prevent other explosions. He was quoted as saying "investigating oil rigs." Of course the one that did blow up is at the bottom of the Gulf. Perhaps he mis-spoke. (didn't have the benefit of a teleprompter at the time)



jaschrumpf said:


> Has there been any speculation about sabotage/bombing yet?
> 
> I mean, besides by me?


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## EpicAdventure

ROSA said:


> Had this occurred on land it would be over, that is why offshore drilling must be stopped and stopped now.


Why do you say this? Remember the oil wells gushing (and burning) in Iraq for months and months? They were on land. Is it ok to drill in Alaska?

I believe the reason the oil is flowing out of this well is because there is so much oil in the reservoir that is flows out without having to be pumped out (like the wells we think of in Texas).

All technologies have inherent problems/risks associated with them. It is sometimes very difficult to weigh the benefits and the risks.


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## GraemeInCanada

I can't say I agree with some that say that we are at fault for having a need/want for this particular product. This has happened because the industry is under regulated, cheap (despite making 4 to 5 billion PROFIT per quarter now) and in general just don't care about much of anything besides sucking the earth dry to fill their pockets with the green stuff. They cut corners, didn't go the extra mile and most certainly didn't make the initial effort to fix the issue when it happened and instead just tried to cover it all up with lame press releases.

Is it our need that forces them to do all that? That doesn't make sense to me. Do we demand low prices? Sure, but we know for a fact that they don't care really what we think or they would also be more careful out there on the ocean and of course on land. I know that I've never voted for a particular party or representative based on them campaigning that they can force the oil companies to continue to give me cheap gas. In fact.. the price of gas is constantly going up despite record profits by oil companies, is any of this making any sense to be blaming us of any sorts?

Industry makes products, we use them, if they make an alternative, we use that too. Consumers drive adoption but very rarely come up with the ideas on how products are made, nor even pay much attention to how they are all regulated. If we are at fault of anything it would be ignorance.

Sorry about that, I'll step off my soapbox now.

Looking at the news and pictures it's a very sad day indeed. 200,000 gallons a day is a lot, it doesn't matter how that compares to the past as one poster put it that it's not much compared to WWII etc. Right now it's having and will have a HUGE effect on the east coast and south from that islands and countries for that matter. Hopefully they can do something about it fast.

And where the heck are the guys that were killed??? You certainly don't hear much about them in the news..


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## nickmerc

I have been reading this thread for the last two days. I hear plenty of blame-storming going on. I agree, this spill is not good any way you look at it. I applaud those who are able and willing to volunteer to help clean up the mess. Thank you for not just complaining and blaming the evil oil companies but actually being part of a solution.

To those of you who want higher oil prices, I have a feeling you have no idea what that will do economically. Remember, when you pay higher prices at the pump, so do all the transportation companies, the farmers who use agricultural equipment, the fisherman who use boats, the shipping companies who use trucks, planes, and boats, etc. Who do you think will cover the extra costs. It will not be the companies. It will be the consumers. So, be careful what you wish for.

To those of you who think this accident was easily prevented. How do you know this. Have you the expertise in the industry and do you know what actually happened?

To those of you spouting off in general about how bad this is. I ask you to stop using your gas or diesel powered cars and trucks, your gas grills, and any plastic goods you may have. That will show how serious you are about wanting everyone to stop using oil or to find a safer way to harvest it.

By the way, beavers were damning rivers long before humans were so you can't blame all the troutless streams on us.
________
Medical Marijuana Hillcrest


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## mdbee

*Information*

This site seems to have some better info than the stuff the networks are putting out, including some eye witness accounts from fishermen below the platform.

The Macondo/Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill, With Running Updates | The Hayride


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## k1vsk

ROSA said:


> First I do not see the benefit to this issue, only the risks. This is a very short sighted view. Whatever benefit some see in offshore is short term. The consequences are long term. Wells of this type only produce for a given period, and therefore we have "permanent solutions to temporary problems".


Not to minimize the environmental impact but it is not "long term". Drilling offshore is indeed a "short term solution" but the consequence of an oil spill is usually measured in weeks or months unless you are talking about extreme cold climates such as Alaska.

The reality is that as long as we like driving our BMWs, heating our homes and using electricity, oil production and the attendant consequences will always happen.

Did anyone really think this type of accident a surprise?

Regarding the environmental impact, crude is the most degradable form of oil; most of the most toxic components (volatiles) evolve causing little real impact. By the time it reaches shore, it's primarily the more heavy fractions. There are still impacts but no where near as devastating as a spill of light oil (gasoline, heating oil, kero) near shore. This could be much worse than the aesthetic meas it will make if/when it reaches shore.

Every time there is a major oil spill, people come out of the tall grass to complain about oil production and then quickly fade away until the next one.

Isn't there a definition about crazy which has something to do with repeatedly banging your head against a wall and complaining that it hurts?


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## GraemeInCanada

k1vsk said:


> Every time there is a major oil spill, people come out of the tall grass to complain about oil production and then quickly fade away until the next one.
> 
> Isn't there a definition about crazy which has something to do with repeatedly banging your head against a wall and complaining that it hurts?


Wow... no is all I have to say to that. There are people constantly fighting big oil and for very good reason. Why beat down those that are looking for tighter regulations and more safety measures put in place instead of those that are also banging their heads against walls like big oil? They too are fighting to constantly have their industry deregulated and safety measures removed because it's "costly"... costly... hahaha, tell me that again when you start only making a few million on profit. Tell them to stop beating their heads against the wall and give in to those that are looking out for the benefit of others.

We don't fade away, we get beaten back by people that tell us to go away because we drive and heat our homes. The media isn't controlled by those that care about the environment, if they could they would remove all images and stories from the media. It's such a big deal now that they can't do that anymore but once they retain control again then I'm sure it'll seem that we "fade back into the grass"...


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## lancelot9898

k1vsk said:


> Every time there is a major oil spill, people come out of the tall grass to complain about oil production and then quickly fade away until the next one.
> 
> ">


I'm awaiting for my "hero" AL Gore to emerge from the tall weeds or in his case from his private jets and mansions to tell us all how to be carbon neutral. Cap the Trade Baby...Cap and Trade.  If only Enron was still here.


----------



## sailguy40

I just watched some more news an hour ago and its not looking any better. Looks like the oil is heading to the north, most of the gulf coast from lousiana further east to alabama gulf shores and maybe even florida pan handle. I am afraid the opportunity for any kind of sailing out in the gulf or any trips to the isles are over with. I better like lake ponchartain, thats all I will get for now. In fact, there was even mention on the same news about it getting into the lake, that can actually happen too. On top of this... I was sent this in the email from turner marine...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Special Alert-Oil Spill April 30, 2010 
Oil Spill Action Alert! 
As many of you are already aware, a major oil spill south of the gulf coast could cause major problems for the boating community in our area. 

This oil may cause Gelcoat degradation on your hull requiring re-painting depending on length of exposure. Bottom paint will no longer be effective in protecting your bottom. Operating the vessel in these areas may cause severe engine damage. In addition, if oil is present, avoid operating your air-conditioners, generators or other devices that use sea-water intakes. 

There could be many other damaging effects of exposure so the question becomes "What to do?" 

The answer is to move your vessel to a protected area or haul your vessel out of the water to avoid exposure to these oil slicks. 

Turner Marine has a 25 ton lift with a second 50 ton lift coming on line and plenty of yard storage to protect your boat. (Note: Check with your insurance company as to reimbursement).

In addition, we have many slips available and we are securing an oil boom to prevent any oil from entering our marina which is extremely well protected already. Do not attempt to cross this boom when in place.

Take action now to avoid costly expenses involved in painting , repairing and reapplying bottom paint to your vessel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## k1vsk

Not sure the above metaphor makes any sense.

When we are totally dependent on petroleum which has to come from the ground, it's crazy to NOT expect accidents - that's the price we pay so why complain about something we already know is inevitable?


----------



## k1vsk

ROSA said:


> The permanent solution is the permanent devastation to the environment.
> 
> The temporary problem is the shot term benefit to offshore drilling.
> 
> You must know the Jimmy Buffett tune, "Permanent Solution To a Temporary Problem" In this case, Permanent Devastation for a Temporary Need.


This is getting tedious. There is no "permanent" environmental impact - it is only temporary.

The only issue here is whether we want to give up our entire way of life to preclude a short-term problem.


----------



## remetau

k1vsk said:


> This is getting tedious. There is no "permanent" environmental impact - it is only temporary.
> 
> The only issue here is whether we want to give up our entire way of life to preclude a short-term problem.


How is the continued destruction of our environment a short term problem?


----------



## k1vsk

remetau said:


> How is the continued destruction of our environment a short term problem?


short-term problems aren't "permanent" nor do they constitute "destruction". 
This really is a waste of time - do some reading about the environmental impact of oil spills and then come back and discuss in realistic terms.


----------



## remetau

I was talking more about our way of life as a society. It is very destructive to the environment and the human spirit. Why don't you ask some of the people who lived in Love Canal (if they are still alive) about the "short term" problems?

What does this all have to do with the oil spill? Everything, it is all part of the same problem. I suppose all the animals and sea life that will die because of this see it as a short term problem too.


----------



## k1vsk

.First, I worked for a number of environmental agencies throughout my career and am an environmentalist. I worked on Love Canal and other hazardous waste sites. Some take decades to clean up and that isn't "permanent". The impact of an oil spill in moderate climates has nothing to do with hazardous waste sites and using them as an analogy shows a fundamental disconnect. 

Our "way of life" would be devastated without oil. Fish kills are a short -term problem whether or not you want to admit it.

Between this and the illegal alien premise you expressed, this is like talking to dry wall.


----------



## remetau

k1vsk,

Just because I have a grander vision than you on how our world is and how it could be, doesn’t mean you should insult me.

I agree that the destruction caused by these incidents isn’t permanent. Nothing is permanent, and I believe that the earth will adapt and life will go on once we are long gone. I just think that we don’t need to slowly kill ourselves off and take the majority of other species with us.

How is a deadly toxic waste dump (more accurate than hazardous) and an oil spill not related when it comes to the recklessness of civilization and its way of life?

And yes, our way of life would be devastated without oil, as it should be. We need to find another way to live that doesn’t have such a devastating impact on our planet.

“Continue to contaminate your own bed, and you will one night suffocate in your own waste.” – Chief Seattle

Sorry to the OP. I didn’t mean to hijack your thread. Maybe the discussion on the environmental impact of an industrialized society should be taken to another thread, but for now I am going to step up topside and enjoy the beautiful view around me on such a gorgeous day before the winds shift from the north and the oil slick makes it way to the keys and short term kills our reef and wonderful marine life down here.


----------



## GraemeInCanada

k1vsk said:


> .First, I worked for a number of environmental agencies throughout my career and am an environmentalist. I worked on Love Canal and other hazardous waste sites. Some take decades to clean up and that isn't "permanent". The impact of an oil spill in moderate climates has nothing to do with hazardous waste sites and using them as an analogy shows a fundamental disconnect.
> 
> Our "way of life" would be devastated without oil. Fish kills are a short -term problem whether or not you want to admit it.
> 
> Between this and the illegal alien premise you expressed, this is like talking to dry wall.


I'm amazed at your continuous almost callous attitude towards the environment and those that live in it. You've called for a stopping of complaining and fighting big oil and in general have just said "don't worry, it'll all be gone soon so who cares?". I can't even imagine why.. Maybe during your life as an environmentalist you've become cynical and have given up on trying to make a difference.. dunno..

This spill will be felt for decades. No it's not "permanent" as you are trying to deride others for saying, but it's reasonably close to it in our lifetimes. I'd say the environment and those using it will be affected until the day you and I die. That's one heck of a long time. I don't see any reason to insult others by telling them to "go read up on environmental disasters". That's an easy one then, check this page out:

Exxon Valdez oil spill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Safeguards could have been put in place for this and they weren't all in the name of profits. I still don't buy the current argument of some that "we've got an addiction to oil, we should have expected this so why complain?". People's lives have been lost and now there will be complete devastation of the surrounding areas which in turn affects all those that live and make a living in those areas. That thing won't stop spewing oil out for months, anybody that visited the affected beaches won't be back there for decades unless they like oily feet. If we stop complaining it will just get worse, you really need to stop telling people to stop standing up for what they believe in, you are in the minority in that way of thinking. People will always stand up for what they believe in and there's nothing wrong with that. Believing that we should have more safeguards, better practices and stricter regulation on those that have the power to destroy whole economies isn't a bad thing. I say, keep complaining until you see action, then keep it up some more when they slack off!

To get back on topic though it's looking rather grim, I saw a news article that the 200 thousand gallons might be a low estimate, the size of the "sheen" has grown 3 times and is the size of Puerto Rico.. holy crap that's a lot of oil. Looks like the lawyers are going to get rich though, saw another article how there are "flocks of lawyers" heading over there to deal with the many lawsuits that are being filed at the moment. BP is going to have to be a bottomless bag of cash (with they pretty much are...) although I'm sure they'll fight every penny tooth and nail.


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## sailhog

My family and I are now living in Seaside, Florida, on the panhandle. The oil is forecast to arrive in Pensacola on Monday and here on Wednesday. The beaches here are unbelievably pristine... sugar-white sand...

I went to a public forum on the oil slick yesterday in Destin. People here are hopping mad. The discussion was headed up by the Walton County Sheriff's office and the talk centered around remediation, public safety and class action lawsuits for as far as the eye can see. 

This is the kind of thing that turns nice people into terrorists.


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## sailhog

k1vsk said:


> This is getting tedious. There is no "permanent" environmental impact - it is only temporary.
> 
> The only issue here is whether we want to give up our entire way of life to preclude a short-term problem.


It's not that off-shore drilling CAN'T be done safely. It's that oil companies WON't do it safely. This entire disaster is the result of a decision made a long time ago to save money on a F-CKING remote controlled valve.

This is all about business, and BP and every other oil company has this thing down cold six ways to Sunday. Take a look at the limited liability laws. It will break your heart. These laws, which they lobbied to have passed, made an investment on a proper valve at the seabed a risk they were willing to take -- because everyone but them (but to a very limited degree) would be assuming that multi-billion dollar risk. Businesses throughout the Gulf are going to lose tens of billions of dollars. BP is going to lose $2 billion, a sum they can make up in a quarter or two. Their stock price is down a whole 20% since this disaster occurred. They didn't want this to happen, but it's all very manageable -- for them. If you're a charter fisherman in Destin with a note on your boat and you haven't had any charters since last October.... well, you're f0cke&. When they repo your boat, you're out 100%. BP? They're down 20%.

Drill, baby, drill! And get the government off the back of business!


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## mdbee

*Survivor interview*

I see there are a lot of people here spewing a lot of theories of what happened, with very little knowledge of the facts. I understand thats human nature. The important thing is that they get this thing under control as soon as possible.

Lets remember those workers that were killed in the accident and send prayers to their families.

There will be plenty of time for finger pointing in the days. months and years ahead.

Below are a couple of 1st hand accounts of the accident.

Survivor:
Mark Levin

Fisherman below the rig:
Fishing Trip of a Lifetime! - MudInMyBlood Forums


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## zeehag

the basic standards of constructing oil wells in sea areas were not followed on this rig. there were found to be flaws in the construction , inclusive of failure to place the emergency capping equipment in place so as to be able to cap this mayhem before getting too far out of hand. the sea conditions and winds have been horrific for clean up efforts as the seas have been large and will not lay down for some time yet and winds from south push the spill farther out from the rig.
i have been trying to find us a way to get home from our trip --we had to abort due to an emergency in my home regarding my boats---minor as compared to this disaster of epic proportions.
rigolets is being boomed off at the railroad bridge...we donot know if we will be able to achieve home port --slidell-- we will be trying to get there--i am receiving info daily via email from uscg and homeland security--isnt of much use--seems everyone is trying to cover butt too much to print any worthwhile info --like -where is still available for transit--at least there's more than one route into and out of ponchartrain--but we need to hurry--despite weather---winds are supposed to shift to be coming out of north--will hopefully aid in slowing down the progress of the spill...seas this weekend are 10-15 ft-- too large and confused for containment of spill... 
this will be a disaster for many years---has been compared to atom bomb blast in destruction proportions.....
see linky---
Frantic Effort to Keep Oil From Reaching Shore


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## MARC2012

Is pearl also boomed?If draft allows used to be a way between rigolets & pearl.Any sign of oil yet?marc


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## zeehag

ocean springs harbor is now boomed off
pascagoula bay is boomed off
we still trying to get to slidell
not gonna happen i thinks
dunno if we can GET to pearl river now--or the icw to noo orleenz.....

non issues to some are reality to others--the ones with the non issues should open eyes and see what is reality. sorry but this is reality.

besides if is a non-issue to ye, why ye making comments in a real sad and sick situation???? enquiring mineds want to know.......
the REALITY is that this area will be screwed up forever and a day beyond then.....alaska is still undergoing cleanup from valdez--lol----believe otherwise--ye donot have a grip on reality, just dreaming.......no mo cruising delta of mississloppy river , guys--is done and gone. no mo shrimping in the gulf coast. no mo fishing industry here either. and the oyster beds in florida ar ein jeopardy... many will lose homes. many will lose lives as depression hits from losing homes. there is more at stake than just a few burdeez and fisheez...this is an area that has not yet recovered from a cat 5 hurricane---now is slammed with permanent disaster from oil spill related to non compliance in building rig...go figger.....lets have more offshore drilling!!??? not likely.......how will the pumps that keep nooo orleenz dry gonna perform in this oily mess??isnt the oil gonna kill the mechanisms?? they were designed to pump water, not crude............


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## zeehag

tornado watches now--what next?? big b;lood sukking bugs??plagues be damned-we have it alll in gulf coast...news at 11..LOL.....drown algore...in oil......then spray with spray paint..lol
environmental agencies are part of the problem, kwhateverye are--lol----get real--bureaucratic nonesense that does nothing but sit on arses and yap.....go out and do pennance for yer sins--help clean this very nasty stuff up and help not hurt....
anyone can talk--but who will DO ????!!!!!


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## k1vsk

Insails said:


> Hey K1...bring your boat down here to the Gulf Coast,better yet lets ship the oil we clean up and pour it in your sailing grounds and see how much a NON ISSUE IT IS TO YOU THEN..I bet if it were your boat and sailing grounds you would be the biggest cry baby of them all....its all about you anyway.


Let's not over-react again. It never ceases to amaze how the same people who are entirely dependent on oil production cry foul every time there is an accident, avoidable or otherwise. The decisions made in every industry on safety are all inevitably cost-analysis decisions and no one who understands the technology can say that a sonic valve or other similar device could have prevented this spill.
Also, I never implied it was trivial; only that it is the price we pay for oil production and is not permanent nor devastating to anything. Too many people here think this is a catastrophe which it could eventually become but it is far from it as yet. I've seen far too many major oil spills in my career incl Prince William Sound to get hysterical about this one.
And thanks for the offer but I live on Tampa Bay so you don't have to ship the oil to me...


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## k1vsk

ROSA said:


> Well, well, Do I finally detect a slight shift in your position?


Wishful thinking?
My position is unchanged; perhaps it might be your perception that changed?


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## zeehag

k1vsk said:


> Let's not over-react again. It never ceases to amaze how the same people who are entirely dependent on oil production cry foul every time there is an accident, avoidable or otherwise. The decisions made in every industry on safety are all inevitably cost-analysis decisions and no one who understands the technology can say that a sonic valve or other similar device could have prevented this spill.
> Also, I never implied it was trivial; only that it is the price we pay for oil production and is not permanent nor devastating to anything. Too many people here think this is a catastrophe which it could eventually become but it is far from it as yet. I've seen far too many major oil spills in my career incl Prince William Sound to get hysterical about this one.
> And thanks for the offer but I live on Tampa Bay so you don't have to ship the oil to me...


my dad was a dupont engineer and salesman for tetraethyllead when gas was leaded--lol---he is not impressed with the OBVIOUS lack of safety first-- there used to be--it once was that safety came before bottom line--is NOT THAT WAY ANYMORE THANKYOU--KEEP THE OIL OUT OF THIS GORGEOUS AREA--I WILL PERSONALLY SEND IT TO YOU--


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## sailhog

It never ceases to amaze me how the same people who are entirely dependent on FOOD cry foul every time there is an accident, avoidable or otherwise.

A great deal of protein comes from the Gulf, and a lot of people make their living by providing it. When a completely avoidable disaster occurs, you have a whole slew of nitwits who eat come to the defense of the oil companies who put fishermen out of work. And they accuse others of hypocrisy?! These people couldn't reason their way out of a wet paper bag.



k1vsk said:


> Let's not over-react again. It never ceases to amaze how the same people who are entirely dependent on oil production cry foul every time there is an accident, avoidable or otherwise. The decisions made in every industry on safety are all inevitably cost-analysis decisions and no one who understands the technology can say that a sonic valve or other similar device could have prevented this spill.
> Also, I never implied it was trivial; only that it is the price we pay for oil production and is not permanent nor devastating to anything. Too many people here think this is a catastrophe which it could eventually become but it is far from it as yet. I've seen far too many major oil spills in my career incl Prince William Sound to get hysterical about this one.
> And thanks for the offer but I live on Tampa Bay so you don't have to ship the oil to me...


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## bb32

Anybody on the East Coast thinking this won't affect them might want to look at this:Gulf Stream May Send Oil Spill Up East Coast


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## zeehag

sailhog said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how the same people who are entirely dependent on FOOD cry foul every time there is an accident, avoidable or otherwise.
> 
> A great deal of protein comes from the Gulf, and a lot of people make their living by providing it. When a completely avoidable disaster occurs, you have a whole slew of nitwits who eat come to the defense of the oil companies who put fishermen out of work. And they accuse others of hypocrisy?! These people couldn't reason their way out of a wet paper bag.


 so who eats???? lol....


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## GraemeInCanada

k1vsk said:


> Let's not over-react again. It never ceases to amaze how the same people who are entirely dependent on oil production cry foul every time there is an accident, avoidable or otherwise. The decisions made in every industry on safety are all inevitably cost-analysis decisions and no one who understands the technology can say that a sonic valve or other similar device could have prevented this spill.
> Also, I never implied it was trivial; only that it is the price we pay for oil production and is not permanent nor devastating to anything. Too many people here think this is a catastrophe which it could eventually become but it is far from it as yet. I've seen far too many major oil spills in my career incl Prince William Sound to get hysterical about this one.
> And thanks for the offer but I live on Tampa Bay so you don't have to ship the oil to me...


Again, this isn't the price we pay for our "dependency", it's the price we pay for not being proactive and forcing the industry to use better practices and stop cutting corners. Your continuous defense of the industry doesn't say much for your environmentalist side, I truly question that statement you made. We cry foul not because oil is being drilled for and used for our purposes but because the industry that you are constantly defending doesn't make better efforts to not destroy the environment that we have to live in. How far does your oil industry need to go before you do get hysterical? What exactly is needed to get you up in arms I wonder?

I'm throwing my vote in with everybody but you in that this is devastating and relatively permanent. Sad that there are those that think otherwise..


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## ROSA

sailhog said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how the same people who are entirely dependent on FOOD cry foul every time there is an accident, avoidable or otherwise.
> 
> A great deal of protein comes from the Gulf, and a lot of people make their living by providing it. When a completely avoidable disaster occurs, you have a whole slew of nitwits who eat come to the defense of the oil companies who put fishermen out of work. And they accuse others of hypocrisy?! These people couldn't reason their way out of a wet paper bag.


SAILHOG, What a brilliant statement. Some of us really do have a clear view of this situation. Thank You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## poopdeckpappy

GraemeInCanada said:


> I'm throwing my vote in with everybody but you in that this is devastating and relatively permanent. Sad that there are those that think otherwise..


I agree it is devastating, but not permanent, I think once the hurricane season starts, so will the natural cleansing process, I just hope the livelyhood of those affected are as resilent as Ma nature.


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## RXBOT

Oil and gas do come out of vents on the ocean floor. Someday there maybe an earthquake offshore that results in a similar disaster. While this one is man made it is simply a result of there was too much pressure contained in that reservoir and we couldn't handle it. I think working a mile down is not exactly routine yet either.


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## capt13

I just bought my boat in GA, and am getting on it Tuesday, and was supposed to bring it home to Ft. Myers Florida. Looks like a change in plans! I can't believe these idiots can send men to the moon in 1969, and can't stop a leak in the ocean in 2010? Somthing don't seem right about this whole thing. All the Manatee's, Dolphins, and grouper have to die, cause some greedy BP idiots cut some corners. I am pissed off! I have lived in Ft. Myers, Florida for 15 years, worked on long liners, and love the gulf. BP Needs to be shut down.


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## LauderBoy

RXBOT said:


> Oil and gas do come out of vents on the ocean floor. Someday there maybe an earthquake offshore that results in a similar disaster.


Just because it can happen in nature too doesn't really trivialize it. As far as nature is concerned the entire area can be lifeless for a thousand years and that'd barely be a blink in the life of the planet.

But us humans are pretty sensitive to changes in our environment. Way more so than nature is.

This entire incident is looking worse and worse as time goes on. First it was a 1,000 barrels a day, then it was 5,000 and right this moment they're thinking it could actually be closer to 25,000 a day.


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## zeehag

as the leakage is more than 5k barrels PER DAY until capping is possible--maybe 2-3 MONTHS, this is far worse than any other disaster EVER occurring on this planet---thjis WILL take forever plus a few lifetimes to clean up if not caught and stopped EARLY .... is waaay too late for early. now is time for unconventional measures and whatever is able to be done needs to be done fast. like yesterday . yada yada doesnt cut it---no one is able to predict or foretell how much permanent damage will be eventually done here---is a damn shame as the area is so vital and so rich in geological wealth and living riches. the folks who reside here have been slammed by civil war, hurricanes, what-have-you--and still survive=---barely!! this is major--we cannot be so arrogant as to PRESUME that mommy nature will repair it in 5 yrs LOL----no freeking way will that happen----hail--alaska isnt pristine as it was before exxon valdez!! never will be--i just hope and pray that folks will be able to catch most of this and burn it off before it hits the rest of the fisheries and oyster and shrimp locales.....but, geologically speaking, that may not ever happen--this COULD well find gulf stream before bureaucrats get their heads out of A** and go up the east coast----i hope it doesnt--i hope the powers that hide behind clipboards are able to finally prove they are able to actually WORK and get this mess repaired to the best of our abilities.


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## nolatom

" We do not need to drill offshore at all, and it needs to be stopped now, right now."

Rosa, I live here too, and feel your pain (two mega-hits in 5 years is a bit much). It's hard to feel good about aviation when a plane just crashed into your (our) house, but these are the risks, and yes we bear them disproportionally here, but stopping all offshore drilling (production?) "right now" is no more the answer than grounding all the aircraft.


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## denverd0n

capt13 said:


> ...cause some greedy BP idiots cut some corners.


Is there some evidence that they cut corners? If so, I haven't seen it or heard about it.

I don't think they cut corners. They just believed that they could build a system that was effectively fail-safe. Never has been and never will be a truly fail-safe system. Their blow-out preventer (BOP) failed, and then they tried to activate the backup BOP and it failed, too. The odds of both of them failing in a single incident are supposedly something like a million to one.

Well, guess what? This one is "the one." And you know what else? It doesn't really matter what the odds are, it still SUCKS!

The one good thing about this is that it will kill any further talk of drilling in close to the Gulf coast of Florida for quite a while. The folks who, two months ago, were saying that it was safe to drill 10 miles from the beach because they had safety systems galore, with backups to their backups, are looking pretty stupid today.


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## RXBOT

*zeehag*

The Valdez spilt 11 million gallons and covered 1300 square miles. In another post you said this spill was bigger than the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.I50.000 -250,000 mostly civ ilians were killed If you targeted that many civilians today the Presedent would be put on trial for war crimes. Your lifetime maybe permanent to you but to the planet even a million years is nothing. Nature will win in the end. End of time for mankind and for the planet is probably vastly different.


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## denverd0n

ROSA said:


> We do not need to drill offshore at all, and it needs to be stopped now, right now.


I would love to see all offshore drilling stopped, but it just isn't going to happen. Hoping, wishing, and praying won't help. Even lobbying, protesting, writing letters, and voting won't help in this case. At this point in history, human beings are addicted to oil. That isn't going to change anytime soon.

At least, not unless someone discovers some truly revolutionary method for collecting and storing energy. And I'm not talking about fuel cells, or better solar panels, or wind farms. These are all just adaptations of decades old technology. I'm talking about something so radically new that we can't even imagine it today.

Barring that sort of discovery, we will eventually be drilling everywhere that we think there might be even one drop of the black gold. Up until this incident, they were arguing here in Florida about whether the drilling should be 100 miles offshore, or only 10. 10 miles? The day will come when they'll be building the oil rigs right on the beach! Never mind 10 miles, or even 2!

I wish it wasn't so, but I just cannot see any realistic alternative.


----------



## denverd0n

RXBOT said:


> End of time for mankind and for the planet is probably vastly different.


Probably!?! No. CERTAINLY!

Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if we had--in essence--been through this all before. That is, some sort of intelligent life could well have lived on the Earth millions of years in the past. Gone through the same sort of development that we have. Polluted the planet, or engaged in doomsday wars, until they were wiped out by their own hubris and stupidity. Time passes. All evidence melts away and sinks so far below the surface that we will never dig down to it. Human beings evolve. The cycle begins again. Eventually we, too, will become extinct and the Earth will go on.


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## ROSA

We are now in a position, today, to reduce drastically our need for oil, and eliminate off shore all together.

The estimate to outfit my home here in LA with enough Solar to eliminate my electric bill in total is $80,000. This includes AC and Heat. 70 to 80 % would be rebated by the Feds and the State. This will include solar water heating which will be separate from the other panels. I would be selling back to CLECO. In addition I am looking into a large wind turbine to increase and backup my needs.

Nissan now has a total electric car. More are coming. We will never replace some needs, but reducing the need is the goal and now it is possible and available right now.

How many of us would have thought it possible to supply our boats with Solar, Wind and LEDs just a few short years ago? We just completed a four week cruise, all on the hook, without a generator, without doing without, (except A/C) which we rarely use anyway. All other conveniences were on board. Rarely did we use the engine. 

Mostly, it is our mindset that needs to change, the tech is here now.


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## w1651

I live here in Saint Petersburg Florida and the beaches and their residents are in a huge predicament. Jobs are few and far between. Our unemployment rate hovers around 12 to 13 percent. Now our tourism and fishing industry may be under attack because of this. Meanwhile our absenty governor Charlie Christ is not saying a word about it. Professional Politician that he is!
Good news is Our State prosecutor Bill McCullim is in Alabama meeting with the other states about the situation. BP better get their act in gear because our state as well as others in the gulf are meeting to Sue BP for the oil spill. And It is already going to cost them Billions

On anther note ! 
If you do the research, what the companies and the government (Our President specifically) Say is true. Alternate fuels will never surpass the economical impact of fossil fuels across the country and it's grid. At best you may get around twenty percent supplementation.

What was said earlier was absolutely correct. 
If we (meaning you and me) started to refit our own properties however close to 80 percent is doable.
What the companies and government won't tell you is on a small scale it could be done at a very large expense to home owners though. Solar panels, battery rooms, wind generators, and hydrogen are all possible on a smaller scale. So what is said on up high in the hierarchy is true but the fact that the powers to be leave this little piece of knowledge out is a bit worrisome to me.


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## LookingForCruiser

ROSA said:


> We are now in a position, today, to reduce drastically our need for oil, and eliminate off shore all together.
> 
> The estimate to outfit my home here in LA with enough Solar to eliminate my electric bill in total is $80,000. This includes AC and Heat. 70 to 80 % would be rebated by the Feds and the State.


That's absolutely abysmal.

a) I'm paying for your solar power (along with other taxpayers). How would this scale? Honestly I'd prefer you to buy your solar panels with your own money, rather than tax me

b) What's the lifespan on these panels? 5-10 years I'd guess, but maybe I'm wrong. In any case, if you're paying $3000 per year in energy bills normally, that's an $80000 investment to eliminate a $30000 energy bill, assuming it all last 10 years without failing. If you get an 80% rebate that's $16000, so you'd break even around 5 years, which is the pessimistic lifespan of the equipment

So with a massive tax subsidy you could either break even, or save up to half your power costs, depending on how long your equipment lasts. Without the tax subsidy, it's a disaster.

Maybe your energy costs are way way higher at your house, which would make that equation more attractive.

We can reduce the need for oil - go nuclear! That doesn't require gigantic tax subsidies.

None of this has anything to do with cleaning up the oil spill in the gulf. We're all just screwed now. Best we can probably do now is retro-fit safeguards onto existing rigs.


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## ROSA

W1651, I am a little confused here and you may know something I don't, probably plenty, LOL. 

I do know that I can for 20 to 25k save 300 to 400 dollars on my electric bill a month, as I would have no bill. Won't take long to recoup the initial investment for me, maybe five years or so.


----------



## ROSA

LookingForCruiser said:


> That's absolutely abysmal.
> 
> a) I'm paying for your solar power (along with other taxpayers). How would this scale? Honestly I'd prefer you to buy your solar panels with your own money, rather than tax me
> 
> b) What's the lifespan on these panels? 5-10 years I'd guess, but maybe I'm wrong. In any case, if you're paying $3000 per year in energy bills normally, that's an $80000 investment to eliminate a $30000 energy bill, assuming it all last 10 years without failing. If you get an 80% rebate that's $16000, so you'd break even around 5 years, which is the pessimistic lifespan of the equipment
> 
> So with a massive tax subsidy you could either break even, or save up to half your power costs, depending on how long your equipment lasts. Without the tax subsidy, it's a disaster.
> 
> Maybe your energy costs are way way higher at your house, which would make that equation more attractive.
> 
> We can reduce the need for oil - go nuclear! That doesn't require gigantic tax subsidies.
> 
> None of this has anything to do with cleaning up the oil spill in the gulf. We're all just screwed now. Best we can probably do now is retro-fit safeguards onto existing rigs.


Not this spill, but future ones.

Wake up and smell the facts:

Panel last 20 or so years.

The gov rule is in place now, I did not write or pass it. I am playing by the rules.

It is available for everyone now and has been for some time.

We have already recovered 70% of that which we installed on the boat. Sorry.

I guess the bottom line here is that in your opinion we have only two choices;

Live on the Gulf Of Texaco or

Glow in the dark.

My taxes are paying too you know.

Changes are coming!


----------



## tommays

Well

Solar would work on MY roof becasue a PO clear cut the trees NOT sure thats a good trade 

It would NOT work in most ANY other house in my area DUE to trees 

IMHP when you have to get a credit that big(70%) to make it worth while its a BUST


----------



## w1651

*I checked this out years ago*

Back in 2000 I wanted to get a house that was totally self sufficient. I bought 5 acres and started to build my dream. I got a double wide. I know what your thinking but after the big one hit in Miami they are actually built very well now.Plus I was able to opt for 6 inch studs and extra insulation. (that's actually where you need to start) 
I went and got the filing kit from the Solar energy center at the University of central Florida . The problem I had was in Florida storms during the summer are prevalent and I wanted to get a wind generator also. If I did Then I could not get the subsidy from the government not to mention there was a waiting list at the time. 
What you are forgetting is
1. Solar is not the only alternative
2. All bulbs and appliances have to be 12 or 24 volts
3. You can get a video how to make your own panels saving lots of expense
4. The same for hydrogen and wind generators.
5. This is the best of all, you can sell the extra you make to the electric company helping to pay off the initial costs.


----------



## w1651

*There are ways to cut costs*



ROSA said:


> W1651, I am a little confused here and you may know something I don't, probably plenty, LOL.
> 
> I do know that I can for 20 to 25k save 300 to 400 dollars on my electric bill a month, as I would have no bill. Won't take long to recoup the initial investment for me, maybe five years or so.


1. If I were you the first thing I would do is insulate my home very very well.
2. You can get a video on building your own solar panels as well as wind generators substantially less than buying them.
4. You can sell back any extra electricity to the company that uses your grid for even more cost reductions.
3. Remember that Wind is a very viable alternative to solar in some areas. Or to take over during the night or during a storm.
5. Also hydrogen has basically been cracked wide open thanks to the university of Indiana. You can make hydrogen during working hours to run a generator, stove, or other appliances off of as long as you can store it. That's the hard part. You need a tank specially designed for it as well as pump and it will need internal regulators as the pressures are upwards of 12000 psi to store it as a liquid. I believe it's 12000 plus but I am still researching that. 
The tank can be found but I haven't figured out the 12 or 24 volt pump to get it in the tank. By the way it all works off of solar or wind energy.
I would make my own panels first to cut my costs of start up.


----------



## RXBOT

*It's not just energy*

Except for the wood and metal probably everything on your boat comes from oil. Hull,deck,sails,lines lifejackets,harnesses and the soles on your shoes and fancy windbreaker plus the bottle that water comes in that is more costly than the diesel in your fuel tank. Where are all the rigs,helicopters, supply boats and high paid workers and refinerys that make that expensive water , I can never seem to find them.


----------



## tommays

Solar System 5376 Watt Capacity
(24 Solar Panel Array approx. 450 sq. feet)
Total Retail Price $34,000
LIPA rebate at $3.50 per watt $18,816*
Initial Investment after rebate $15,184
NY State Tax Credit
(25% of net cost max. $5,000) $3,796**
Federal Tax Credit
(30% of net) $4,555
Total Investment $6,833
Est. Electrical Production / yr $1,445***
Est. Increased Value of Property $28,891
Simple “TAX FREE”
Return On Investment 21%

This return is enhanced if interest on funds borrowed is tax deductible, and results in owning the system for an after tax cost less than $50.00 per month. By reducing the utility costs for your home, the value of your property will increase when you sell your home.

* The LIPA Solar Rebate is dropping to $2.75/watt as of January 1, 2010. CALL US NOW to lock in the present $3.50/watt rebate! 

**NY State Tax Credit can be carried over multiple years if needed.

***Estimated savings based on LIPA Clean Power Estimator.


A system with battery's is MUCH MORE money and the state is BROKE so good luck on the tax  

And its biggest issue is FORCING the electric company to buy you excess even when they DON'T NEED IT making me help you again


----------



## w1651

*RXBOT is right*

We do need fossil fuels to make all kinds of products but we could help with a little bit of smarts in that area as well. Plastics are here to stay but things like clothing could be made of cotton or hemp instead of polyester fibers.(I know what you all are thinking)
Why do milk jugs need to be plastic? Why not cartons like a quart or half gallon?
Bring your own cloth bags to the grocery store. Do people really understand how many of those things are in landfills? Don't even get me started on diapers now.
That's just a few of the things we can do.


----------



## ROSA

w1651 said:


> We do need fossil fuels to make all kinds of products but we could help with a little bit of smarts in that area as well. Plastics are here to stay but things like clothing could be made of cotton or hemp instead of polyester fibers.(I know what you all are thinking)
> Why do milk jugs need to be plastic? Why not cartons like a quart or half gallon?
> Bring your own cloth bags to the grocery store. Do people really understand how many of those things are in landfills? Don't even get me started on diapers now.
> That's just a few of the things we can do.


You are so right! Like I and many here have said in some post, so many of us have forgotten what a difference we can make. We refuse to think outside the box at all, and just accept that which is the accepted norm. Some are not innovative enough, some just do not care, while many refuse to look up and see the real big picture. If we demand, as a people, we can stop these things from happening, by being willing to change ourselves, and our values.


----------



## wannam

Note to Sarah Palin:

How's that "Drill-Baby-Drill" workin' out for ya'?


----------



## w1651

*So one day I am channel surfing*

And I come across a special on garbage and what it is doing to the planet. Up until this time I have to admit that I really didn't think about it. But I saw that birds on the islands in the Pacific were dieing of starvation. 
When the scientists looked at the bodies of these birds the found plastic in their rib cages hinting at the fact they had eaten plastic. 
They then cut to the pacific waters between the Galapagos Islands and French Polynesia. They showed the waters to be so polluted with garbage (Plastics) that the birds were eating it thinking it was fish. Thus causing the starvation.
The narrator said it was from storm drains in America which "okay" maybe some was. I highly doubt however that all of it was. I think the best culprit here is cruise ships dumping garbage. They are probably more to blame then California is. 
But this shows another problem in the environmental movement. To fix a problem you have got to be one truthful about the cause and two honest about the realities of the day at hand. 
We can do a lot better but it does come down to a individuals as well as a corporations decision.


----------



## remetau

I don’t think that there is one energy solution for everybody and different locales might and probably should come up with their own solutions, but there is one thing that we all can do, and that is to reduce. We all seem to remember recycle, but in the three Rs, reduction comes first, followed by reuse, and then recycle. We need to reduce our consumption of almost everything.

Here are some of the things that we do in no particular order:

We use wind and solar.

We use canvas bags for all stores, not just the grocery store. We say “no bags” for when we can just carry our stuff out. We even have canvas bags for produce. We try to get whole foods without packaging.

We ride our bikes when feasible.

We use wax paper and plastic containers in place of use once bags for storing food.

We try to buy more local food from local sources.

We can some of our own food.

We use steel bottles for drinking tap water instead of buying bottled water.

We use handkerchiefs instead of disposable tissues.

We use led lights.

We buy used products when practical and available.

If we go out to eat and expect leftovers, we take containers with us. If we don’t have containers we ask for a small piece of aluminum foil instead of foam.

We ask for glasses instead of plastic cups when we are out. If we are out drinking and get plastic cups, we ask for refills in these instead of having them thrown away each time.

We ask for no straws in our drinks.

We try to trade books instead of buying new ones.

When we shower, we don’t let the water run free.

We use rags instead of paper towels.

When on picnics with friends, we take our dishes and silverware instead of using disposables.

We use natural cleaners like vinegar, baking soda, and lemon.

We tend to buy biodegradables and organic products.

Every once in while we sit down and try to figure out something else that we can do.


----------



## therapy23

tommays said:


> * The LIPA Solar *Rebate is dropping *to $2.75/watt as of January 1, 2010. CALL US NOW to lock in the present $3.50/watt rebate!
> 
> **NY State Tax Credit can be carried over multiple years if needed.
> 
> ***Estimated savings based on LIPA Clean Power Estimator.
> 
> A system with battery's is MUCH MORE money and the* state is BROKE *so good luck on the tax
> 
> And its biggest issue is FORCING the electric company to buy you excess even when they DON'T NEED IT making me help you again


Note that the state and federal govornments are broke all over. They have this now so like you say, get it now. It will go away because the only income the govt has it my money and yours. They have no other income.


----------



## johnshasteen

It's an oil spill folks, this happen every once or twice in a blue moon. But note that, suddently, some idiot tries to blow up an old SUV in Times Square and the news media rushs off to cover that and the spill moves to page two.
We don't need to stop drilling, we need to stop calling every oil field, oil rig, oil tanker related event, the end of life as we know it. 
Not many of us were alive for, or even know about, the great Texas City explosion back in the 1940's that desimated the city, killed over 600, including the entire Texas City volunteer fire department, injured another 5,000 others, destroyed the Monsanto plant and broke windows as far away as Houston.
If you go down to Texas City today, you'd never know it happened.


----------



## w1651

*Humor me here*

When I was a young man I had to help replace a sewer line at my house with my dad. My house had old clay pipe that was good for its day but needed to be repaired because of tree roots and it just collapsed. 
But we unearthed it and then took a piece of pvc pipe and used it in place of the old clay pipe coupling it at both ends with a rubber coupler and clamps.
Obviously this is a little different but I was thinking , Why not uses the same principle but instead of both end coupled use the topside end to fill barges full of oil.
I don't know how deep the break is but something could be rigged just to get the oil from getting into the gulf. but it's a pipe Not the space shuttle


----------



## sailhog

Whether you're for or against offshore oil drilling, you have to be appalled by the oil industry's response to this crisis. They are currently designing and welding the sub-surface oil collection dome...

As has been pointed out, accidents happen. Oil rigs sometimes sink. So why didn't BP or Transocean have this contingency set up for this inevitability?


----------



## sailhog

w1651 said:


> When I was a young man I had to help replace a sewer line at my house with my dad. My house had old clay pipe that was good for its day but needed to be repaired because of tree roots and it just collapsed.
> But we unearthed it and then took a piece of pvc pipe and used it in place of the old clay pipe coupling it at both ends with a rubber coupler and clamps.
> Obviously this is a little different but I was thinking , Why not uses the same principle but instead of both end coupled use the topside end to fill barges full of oil.
> I don't know how deep the break is but something could be rigged just to get the oil from getting into the gulf. but it's a pipe Not the space shuttle


This is from the Deepwater HOrizon Response website:

To submit alternative response technology, services or products please call (281) 366-5511


----------



## ROSA

sailhog said:


> Whether you're for or against offshore oil drilling, you have to be appalled by the oil industry's response to this crisis. They are currently designing and welding the sub-surface oil collection dome...
> 
> As has been pointed out, accidents happen. Oil rigs sometimes sink. So why didn't BP or Transocean have this contingency set up for this inevitability?


Sailhog, The truth is that these domes, 2 of them already exist and have been there for quite some time before the spill, one is in Port Fourchon, LA. Neither have they tried to use SWEEPER BOOMS, not containment booms. Sweeper Booms suck the oil which they contain from the surface.

My friend has information that the response has been slow on purpose with the whole intent of stopping offshore drilling as unsafe through public opinion. They have already been successful in this attempt with two governors backing off.

While I am opposed to offshore drilling I am not in favor of deception being used for their agenda. There is a lot going on here than the general public will ever know, IMHO.


----------



## k1vsk

Don't know where you get your info from but a boom is a boom; a "sweeper" boom is simply a boom used to collect oil into a trough in which a skimmer is used to remove the surface layer. Also, where did "_Neither have they tried to use SWEEPER BOOMS, not containment booms."

From the _May 4, 2010 Operations Report: "196 total vessels (including tugs and skimmers); *486,940 feet boom deployed; 668,081 feet boom available".

*It's difficult enoughto form an objective opinion without mis-statements.*

I'll leave it to someone smarter than me to figure out what incentive the government or BP would have to intentionally slow down the cleanup. Any evidence? Or is this another perception?
*


----------



## ROSA

k1vsk said:


> Don't know where you get your info from but a boom is a boom; a "sweeper" boom is simply a boom used to collect oil into a trough in which a skimmer is used to remove the surface layer. Also, where did "_Neither have they tried to use SWEEPER BOOMS, not containment booms."
> 
> From the _May 4, 2010 Operations Report: "196 total vessels (including tugs and skimmers); *486,940 feet boom deployed; 668,081 feet boom available".
> 
> *It's difficult enoughto form an objective opinion without mis-statements.*
> 
> I'll leave it to someone smarter than me to figure out what incentive the government or BP would have to intentionally slow down the cleanup. Any evidence? Or is this another perception?
> *


Obviously, there is no one smarter than you!


----------



## ROSA

k1vsk said:


> Don't know where you get your info from but a boom is a boom; a "sweeper" boom is simply a boom used to collect oil into a trough in which a skimmer is used to remove the surface layer. Also, where did "_Neither have they tried to use SWEEPER BOOMS, not containment booms."
> 
> From the _May 4, 2010 Operations Report: "196 total vessels (including tugs and skimmers); *486,940 feet boom deployed; 668,081 feet boom available".
> 
> *It's difficult enoughto form an objective opinion without mis-statements.*
> 
> I'll leave it to someone smarter than me to figure out what incentive the government or BP would have to intentionally slow down the cleanup. Any evidence? Or is this another perception?
> *


You seem to place all of your faith in those who got us where we are today. You also, continue to insult those of us who do not hold your position.

Mis information may also coming from your official sources. (BP, GOV, NEWS MEDIA.)

I stand by my opinion, an although I may have mis labeled some items, there is no intent to mislead. As you point out there is a skimmer, not a sweeper as I called it.

I strongly suspect that you are an industry employee, maybe even BP, or a government worker. You responded just a little too quickly, concerning nomenclature issues, on oil field dictionary terms, for me to believe otherwise.


----------



## remetau

ROSA said:


> I strongly suspect that you are an industry employee, maybe even BP, or a government worker. You responded just a little too quickly, concerning nomenclature issues, on oil field dictionary terms, for me to believe otherwise.


Rosa,

Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions about people who work in the industry.

I'm an industry employee. I work for a company that builds oil platforms, energy plants, and nuclear reactors for both land and sea. I work in the fossil fuels division. Just because I work in the industry though doesn't make me a bad person or an advocate for what we do.


----------



## bljones

ROSA, pump your brakes- you are entering tinfoil hat territory.


----------



## tommays

"My friend has information that the response has been slow on purpose with the whole intent of stopping offshore drilling as unsafe through public opinion. They have already been successful in this attempt with two governors backing off."


----------



## k1vsk

No, the assumption I work for the government or the industry is as wrong as are some of the statements made here. I am an env engineer and have worked on emergency response and petrochemical industry env issues for decades including some I'd rather forget such as Price William Sound, Bhopal India's isocyanate release and other large spills involved with env assessment, cleanup, trajectory modeling and health impacts.
I am no expert but I do consider any comments I have made here as both factual and objective. 
My apparently futile attempt here is to point out that some of the comments here are a result of uninformed snap judgments or down-right ignorance although I recognize that may be too harsh a characterization.

There are lots of people risking their lives trying to mitigate the impact of this spill, contain and clean up the mess, assess it's impact and cap the wellhead - saying they are intentionally sabotaging the cleanup activities is insulting to them and those of us who know better.

I again ask anyone who has made such an allegation to prove it.


----------



## w1651

remetau said:


> Rosa,
> 
> Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions about people who work in the industry.
> 
> I'm an industry employee. I work for a company that builds oil platforms, energy plants, and nuclear reactors for both land and sea. I work in the fossil fuels division. Just because I work in the industry though doesn't make me a bad person or an advocate for what we do.


I agree

I don't think anyone (Gov or Bp Corp) ever wanted this to happen. This is like the planes on 9/11. A tragedy that no one expected or ever wanted to happen. 
What we need though are some industry pros here in the U.S. to get down and dirty and try SOMETHING! This is looking like it will be the biggest ecological disaster ever and as an American I am starting to get really angry my country won't stop pointing fingers and get their A$$es in gear. 
My state has a lot to lose and my Governor has remained completely out of the loop on this subject. WHAT A POLITICAL WUSSY !!


----------



## pdqaltair

I posted some links to NOAA, Coast Guard, and Louisiana State web sites; there is good current information.

Sail Delmarva: Gulf of Mexico Spill

As for commentary, I think that is well covered by others!


----------



## ROSA

remetau said:


> Rosa,
> 
> Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions about people who work in the industry.
> 
> I'm an industry employee. I work for a company that builds oil platforms, energy plants, and nuclear reactors for both land and sea. I work in the fossil fuels division. Just because I work in the industry though doesn't make me a bad person or an advocate for what we do.


I have not accused K1 of being a bad person and furthermore I have no reason to believe he is one. I have simply formed an opinion of him due to his post content. He simply seems to trust the powers that be without question. I also do not believe anyone here has wished this on us or is happy about it. I respect your position in the industry also and am happy that you are not happy about some of the things that your industry does.

If you will check back toward the beginning of this thread you will find that I complimented him on one of his post.

I worked in a position for years that kept me disturbed on a regular basis. I stuck it out only because I had too much invested to leave by the time I became well informed. Many things were happening when I started that I was not aware of as I was too low on the totem pole. As time passed I learned the truth. Finally I reached the time and we parted. I am not proud of why I stayed. While there I learned the truth about what was going on inside,things that the public will never know or probably believe.

Now, I question every answer, especially from the government and corporate America, because they have prov-en to be deceptive over and over again. We have been lied to by both for years and years. Today is no different!

Just because they employ us does not make them good.


----------



## ROSA

tommays said:


> "My friend has information that the response has been slow on purpose with the whole intent of stopping offshore drilling as unsafe through public opinion. They have already been successful in this attempt with two governors backing off."


That is a really neat photo, do they know you have it?

FACT: If you will simply pay attention to the news, you pick the station, you will find that two Govenors have just backed off offshore drilling. I didn't make that up either. Can you dispute that fact. New offshore drilling is over and hopefully it will slow down or stop in the Gulf totally.


----------



## ROSA

bljones said:


> ROSA, pump your brakes- you are entering tinfoil hat territory.


Be civil and call it what you will sir. Anyone who accepts, without question, what the powers spew, is already a charter member or your tinfoil hat society.


----------



## ROSA

I am not angry at anyone on the forum and wish us all a fast and successful trip through these terrible times. Emotions are running high and we all have good reason to hold on to our view and positions. I have even gotten a few good laughs out of a very sad situation from some here. 

If anyones feelings were hurt it was un-intentional, and I am sorry. Tease if you will, I can, and do laugh at myself. All of my post are sincere and from the heart. I have made no intentional errors. Hopefully I am wrong, unfortunately we will see.

I really need to go now, as the copter is waiting on the lawn!


----------



## zeehag

so far the oil is not inside the barrier islands. our scalded dog run through there last nite found much barge traffic and smoother sailing waters..some foul odor at cat-ship island but no oil inside barrier islands as yet--let us hope it doesnt get that close!!!
we saw barges with booms leaving rigolets this am also--the seas were small enough mebbe the booms may do some good this time!!! booms are at the ready at the hwy 90 bridge----havent seen or heard anything else as yet--am off watch now--thank gods!!!!


----------



## ROSA

Thanks Zeehag, for the on site report. No oil here on Lake Pontchartrain, near the twin span either. We are wondering about points east and the Chandeleur Islands, from independent sources. Where are you headed?


----------



## remetau

Not sure if this is off topic or not, but is anybody familiar with the surfactant chemicals that BP is using to reduce the amount of oil on the surface? Are we trading a bad oil spill to a bad chemical pollution for later?

I like my shrimp naturally large and pink without tumors please.


----------



## ROSA

remetau said:


> Not sure if this is off topic or not, but is anybody familiar with the surfactant chemicals that BP is using to reduce the amount of oil on the surface? Are we trading a bad oil spill to a bad chemical pollution for later?
> 
> I like my shrimp naturally large and pink without tumors please.


BP seems to be working to slow the spills surface issues in order to allow the public opinion to adjust. Their stock is down today, and they need to polish up their slick. They know what is out of sight is out of mind. We are so shallow and ignorant as a people. Again we are trading reality for fiction. Just send it to the bottom, where no one will see. If it is pretty it is OK here in the USA.


----------



## bljones

ROSA said:


> Be civil and call it what you will sir. Anyone who accepts, without question, what the powers spew, is already a charter member or your tinfoil hat society.


Alright, I'll call it what I will.
And I am calling you a paranoid, hysterical, sensational part of the problem, not part of the solution. 
You come on here and start spouting (what may or may not be) crap coming from mysterious "sources," with no evidence to back your claims, you belittle others who don't agree with you, you have done nothing but spread rumours and ugly innuendo.

If you're so concerned about the irreversible environmental impact (and yes, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, i agree that in my lifetime it could safely be considered "irreversible") then why are you posting here?
Why are you not volunteering to clean up?
Why are you not out getting exclusive, uncensored, never-before-seen photos of the devastation and posting them here?
In other words, become part of the solution.

Anything else is just bs.

No one should accept without question what YOU have been spewing.


----------



## ROSA

bljones said:


> Alright, I'll call it what I will.
> And I am calling you a paranoid, hysterical, sensational part of the problem, not part of the solution.
> You come on here and start spouting (what may or may not be) crap coming from mysterious "sources," with no evidence to back your claims, you belittle others who don't agree with you, you have done nothing but spread rumours and ugly innuendo.
> 
> If you're so concerned about the irreversible environmental impact (and yes, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, i agree that in my lifetime it could safely be considered "irreversible") then why are you posting here?
> Why are you not volunteering to clean up?
> Why are you not out getting exclusive, uncensored, never-before-seen photos of the devastation and posting them here?
> In other words, become part of the solution.
> 
> Anything else is just bs.
> 
> No one should accept without question what YOU have been spewing.


Could you please be a bit more specific about my statements, the ones you claim to be BS? How do you know what I am or am not doing? How do you know you are right about all of this? Do you question anything sir about what they have or are doing out there, or what they have told us?.

I am certainly glad to see that you are becoming more civil sir! That is quite an improvement, I am impressed. I am acting calmly and find that you seem quite hysterical.

My volunteer status is my business, and yours is yours. Of course you probably will not believe that I was unless I furnish names and dates and witnesses. If you say you are, I will take you at your word, why would you lie. Some of us will never understand.

Just what have I called you to make you so mad? I obviously have an opinion which differs from yours. You have insulted me and all I did was to respond to your insult in a civil fashion. Your post should be adjusted accordingly, and I am surprised that you are allowed to insult in the way you have.

Could it be that something I have said, or that you suspect in your own mind, has touched a nerve with you. You seem so full of hate.


----------



## fjon

bljones said:


> Alright, I'll call it what I will.
> And I am calling you a paranoid, hysterical, sensational part of the problem, not part of the solution.
> You come on here and start spouting (what may or may not be) crap coming from mysterious "sources," with no evidence to back your claims, you belittle others who don't agree with you, you have done nothing but spread rumours and ugly innuendo.
> 
> If you're so concerned about the irreversible environmental impact (and yes, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, i agree that in my lifetime it could safely be considered "irreversible") then why are you posting here?
> Why are you not volunteering to clean up?
> Why are you not out getting exclusive, uncensored, never-before-seen photos of the devastation and posting them here?
> In other words, become part of the solution.
> 
> Anything else is just bs.
> 
> No one should accept without question what YOU have been spewing.


She lives in the target zone, Buckaroo. What do you have at stake? The Bush/Cheney legacy? Corporate hegemony? A job with BP? uke :laugher :laugher :laugher Show a glimmer of human understanding and life will feel much better.

Why yes, I am ordained as a minister of God. One dark and stormy night we all danced naked about the fire as a Shaman ordained me a teacher of the laws of gods and nature.


----------



## k1vsk

ROSA said:


> BP seems to be working to slow the spills surface issues in order to allow the public opinion to adjust. Their stock is down today, and they need to polish up their slick. They know what is out of sight is out of mind. We are so shallow and ignorant as a people. Again we are trading reality for fiction. Just send it to the bottom, where no one will see. If it is pretty it is OK here in the USA.


This is just more of the same wild assumption and mis-characterization of what is happening. No one is slowing down the cleanup and the dispersants which are being tried, not used in any wholesale fashion, are approved by both the CG and EPA in consultation with the state environmental agencies as the least offensive option. Dispersants do what their name implies - disperse the oil into the water column thereby lessening the surface slick. In so doing the oil becomes emulsified in the water which has the benefit of making it more degradable than if it were to float as well as eliminating the possibility of the slick moving on shore contaminating mangroves, beaches and estuary areas.

I should add this is all done with extensive monitoring to ensure all the experts have the data on which to approve more widespread use of dispersants.

All you show by condemning this action is a total lack of understanding.

You (you know who I mean) add nothing to this discussion and should stop embarrassing yourself.


----------



## bljones

ROSA said:


> yadda yadda ... How do you know what I am or am not doing? How do you know you are right about all of this.... yadda yadda.. verbose irrelevance...
> 
> My volunteer status is my business, and yours is yours. Of course you probably will not believe that I was unless I furnish names and dates. If you say you are, I will take you at your word, why would you lie. Some of us will never understand.... yadda yadda, more misdirection, more yadda...
> 
> You seem so full of hate.


Yes, I am full of hate.
I hate innuendo.
I hate rumours.
I hate conspiracy theories.
I hate passive/aggressive behaviour.
I hate the view held by some that every opinion is valid and deserves equal time, no matter how vile, misguided, unsubstantiated, uninformed, ill-informed, or poorly formed.

I did not insult you- I offered you a piece of non-judgemental advice. I warned you to "pump your brakes." That you decided to view my advice as an insult is your problem, not mine.

Yes, your volunteer status is YOUR business.... right up until you complained about what is being done in what you claim are YOUR sailing grounds. I figure, if you aren't part of the solution in your own back yard, you don't have a whole lot to complain about. I further figure that if you are willing to write a post with a hazy story of discovering corporate corruption at your employer that was so heinous that it caused you to leave the company, that you would certainly trumpet your insider cred by telling us what you are doing to solve this problem. Since you have been eager to deride the efforts made so far to clean up this fiasco based on the rumours you hear from your inside sources, and seeing as you are concerned enough to have devoted almost half of your Sailnet post total to this topic, I figured you might actually be concerned enough to contribute to the solution, and show us some leadership and environmental responsibility.

But apparently your invaluable contribution to the cleanup effort consists of...
complaining.

Based on the evidence, or lack thereof, I figure you are just one more keyboard kommando. Of course, I might be wrong.


----------



## ROSA

k1vsk said:


> This is just more of the same wild assumption and mis-characterization of what is happening. No one is slowing down the cleanup and the dispersants which are being tried, not used in any wholesale fashion, are approved by both the CG and EPA in consultation with the state environmental agencies as the least offensive option. Dispersants do what their name implies - disperse the oil into the water column thereby lessening the surface slick. In so doing the oil becomes emulsified in the water which has the benefit of making it more degradable than if it were to float as well as eliminating the possibility of the slick moving on shore contaminating mangroves, beaches and estuary areas.
> 
> I should add this is all done with extensive monitoring to ensure all the experts have the data on which to approve more widespread use of dispersants.
> 
> All you show by condemning this action is a total lack of understanding.
> 
> You (you know who I mean) add nothing to this discussion and should stop embarrassing yourself.


You need to check the recent post sir. I am not the only one who is concerned about this. That is what corporate America has always done. Some are still expecting different results from the same old procedures.

The true embarrament here is not you or I! It is the total unquestioned system. They also approved DDT. Check with any Pelican.


----------



## ROSA

I see you have been checking all of my post. Kommandos together at last! You need to lighten up sir. If I can you can too.


----------



## k1vsk

ROSA said:


> You need to check the recent post sir. I am not the only one who is concerned about this. That is what corporate America has always done. Some are still expecting different results from the same old procedures.
> 
> The true embarrament here is not you or I! It is the total unquestioned system. They also approved DDT. Check with any Pelican.


That changes nothing about what you contributed. There are hundreds of people risking their lives to contain this spill, diving on it, collecting samples offshore, etc... and your (and a small few others) continued uninformed criticism of it and them as a whole is insulting.

Before I say what I really think about you for which I will undoubetly get thrown off this site, I'll stop.


----------



## ROSA

k1vsk said:


> That changes nothing about what you contributed. There are hundreds of people risking their lives to contain this spill, diving on it, collecting samples offshore, etc... and your (and a small few others) continued uninformed criticism of it and them as a whole is insulting.
> 
> Before I say what I really think about you for which I will undoubetly get thrown off this site, I'll stop.


You seem to be a very rude and uninformed about how some others feel about this issue. I am not alone in my opinion. Mixing the oil with the water is not healthy and you should know that sir considering your resume on this forum. It is designed to create a perception and image.

The whales, dolphins, and other sea creatures have no way to call the EPA and complain. We complain for them, that is our responsibility as humans. We are charged with their protection.

I guess that the 11 sea turtles which have died on the beach in Pass Christian are someones imagination too. How about we mix some oil with your air sir?

If we spill while fueling, and it is noticed, we are carted off to jail and fined to the hilt and our boat is probably impounded and held for the fine.

As a fellow sailor I am surprised and shocked that you are not also.


----------



## ROSA

k1vsk said:


> That changes nothing about what you contributed. There are hundreds of people risking their lives to contain this spill, diving on it, collecting samples offshore, etc... and your (and a small few others) continued uninformed criticism of it and them as a whole is insulting.
> 
> Before I say what I really think about you for which I will undoubetly get thrown off this site, I'll stop.


This post says a lot about your character.

None of my post have been directed at the workers and those risking their lives to clean up this mess. Show me one.

It is the company directing them to do what they are forced to do, to keep their jobs, that is the problem. Those people loose their jobs if they are caught talking about the specifics. It is the suits, who are the problem. That is usually the case.

Did you hear the taped interview with the survivor from the rig. They had to give him a new name and he was afraid to state what his job was and where he worked, how he escaped. He was so intimidated by BP that he could not tell the truth. Listen for your self on Mark Levin's site, if you really care about the little man in this situation. It is the same with those working there now, total intimidation.


----------



## poopdeckpappy

ROSA said:


> You seem to be a very rude and uninformed about how some others feel about this issue. I am not alone in my opinion.


Rosa, I get where you're coming from, I honestly do and I truely hope they get this spill stopped ASAP, one for the obvious reason and two, I wouldn't want to see you hurt yourself falling off a oily soapbox



> The whales, dolphins, and other sea creatures have no way to call the EPA and complain. We complain for them, that is our responsibility as humans. We are charged with their protection.
> 
> I guess that the 11 sea turtles which have died on the beach in Pass Christian are someones imagination too. How about we mix some oil with your air sir?


You have made this abundantly clear ( at least to me ) that this is a anti-drilling/oil company/pro environmental springboard for you and to that I say, shame on ya

In case you have forgotten, 11 humans lost thier lives in this accident too . Several hundred thousand other human beings stand to lose their livelyhoods and personal property damage could be in the billions

But hey, at least you've made it clear how you and others feel about this issue


----------



## ROSA

poopdeckpappy said:


> Rosa, I get where you're coming from, I honestly do and I truely hope they get this spill stopped ASAP, one for the obvious reason and two, I wouldn't want to see you hurt yourself falling off a oily soapbox
> 
> You have made this abundantly clear ( at least to me ) that this is a anti-drilling/oil company/pro environmental springboard for you and to that I say, shame on ya
> 
> In case you have forgotten, 11 humans lost thier lives in this accident too . Several hundred thousand other human beings stand to lose their livelyhoods and personal property damage could be in the billions
> 
> But hey, at least you've made it clear how you and others feel about this issue


A bit of humor, I like that, thank you. Which enviormental group did you say caused those poor souls to parish? If we were not there nothing would have happened poop. The company killed those boys, not the Sierra Club.

You seem to be a class act poop. Enough said.


----------



## bb32

Seems some are not quite so sanguine about the safety and efficacy of chemical dispersants;

Oil Spill Surface Cleanup Ignores Fish Below : Discovery News

I don't know what percentage of commercial fisherman down there are draggers but this doesn't sound too promising for their industry.


----------



## zeehag

i KNEW it needs to be burned!!!!


we need oil
we need to drill
we neeed safety to be first consideration rather than a back burner thing coming after profit and production.


----------



## k1vsk

bb32 said:


> Seems some are not quite so sanguine about the safety and efficacy of chemical dispersants;
> 
> Oil Spill Surface Cleanup Ignores Fish Below : Discovery News
> 
> I don't know what percentage of commercial fisherman down there are draggers but this doesn't sound too promising for their industry.


I don't think anyone considers dispersants a preferred approach, however, given all the practical and available alternatives, it is a tool in the tool box which, as I said, may be the least offensive tool.


----------



## mdbee

*Clarification*



ROSA said:


> I guess that the 11 sea turtles which have died on the beach in Pass Christian are someones imagination too. How about we mix some oil with your air sir?


Just wanted you to get your fact straight. The necropsy on these turtles showed no contact with the oil spill.

A few weeks ago (before the oil spill) we had more than 11 of the same turtles die south of us on the Gulf beaches. Sorry, we had no oil spill to blame their deaths on.


----------



## ROSA

mdbee said:


> Just wanted you to get your fact straight. The necropsy on these turtles showed no contact with the oil spill.
> 
> A few weeks ago (before the oil spill) we had more than 11 of the same turtles die south of us on the Gulf beaches. Sorry, we had no oil spill to blame their deaths on.


That is apparently true. It does not change what is coming for someone. It was apparently caused by overly aggressive shrimpers trying to catch all they can while they can.

Pass Christians', daily beech walkers, stated that no turtles were reported prior to the spill on the beach, for quite some time. Conflicting information.

Anyone interested in a more realistic perspective report on the situation and the chemicals being used might go to the Greenpeace Site, for a full scientific report.


----------



## therapy23

Unfortunately Greenpeace is no longer very scientific.

They are extremest radicals. That is why some of their top people have left.

They may have things to say but like the "other side" they spin it too.

Does anyone not spin?


----------



## zeehag

just got back from a yr--over 6000 miles of cruising the gulf of mexico. we got in yesterday morning at 1030am.....we could smell the oil slick at cat island...... is not inside the barrier islands as yet. booms are in place ready to be placed at the hwy 90 bridge, we saw. we were told by the fella at lulus we got our fuel from that there will be booms placed at both ends of the canal--mobile bay and pensacola--and we were told that sand would be placed between barrier islands--now i really donot know about that----i didnt see any sign of that activity as we traversed the area. i hope the oil stays outside the barrier islands--i hope the clean up is brisk and quick--but , realistically speaking, and with bureaucratic involvement, i doubt the clean up will be quick. 
i am glad i was able to sail cruise this area for the 6000+ miles we travelled ---has been awesome and enlightening. will be a shame to have to see the change after the mayhem is done. this place survived civil war, numerous hurricanes, now this----wow--is impressive. so is the scenery and the treasure here.


----------



## poopdeckpappy

Rosa, just so we're clear, there was no humor intended, nor do I blame anyone, INCLUDING any environmental group, this is/was a accident until proven otherwise.


----------



## zeehag

eyeball witnesses said accident and took pix.
Fishing Trip of a Lifetime! - MudInMyBlood Forums


----------



## ROSA

poopdeckpappy said:


> Rosa, just so we're clear, there was no humor intended, nor do I blame anyone, INCLUDING any environmental group, this is/was a accident until proven otherwise.


Just sent you a private message.


----------



## poopdeckpappy

..........replied


----------



## utchuckd

remetau said:


> I don't think that there is one energy solution for everybody and different locales might and probably should come up with their own solutions, but there is one thing that we all can do, and that is to reduce. We all seem to remember recycle, but in the three Rs, reduction comes first, followed by reuse, and then recycle. We need to reduce our consumption of almost everything.
> 
> Here are some of the things that we do in no particular order:
> 
> We use wind and solar.
> 
> We use canvas bags for all stores, not just the grocery store. We say "no bags" for when we can just carry our stuff out. We even have canvas bags for produce. We try to get whole foods without packaging.
> 
> We ride our bikes when feasible.
> 
> We use wax paper and plastic containers in place of use once bags for storing food.
> 
> We try to buy more local food from local sources.
> 
> We can some of our own food.
> 
> We use steel bottles for drinking tap water instead of buying bottled water.
> 
> We use handkerchiefs instead of disposable tissues.
> 
> We use led lights.
> 
> We buy used products when practical and available.
> 
> If we go out to eat and expect leftovers, we take containers with us. If we don't have containers we ask for a small piece of aluminum foil instead of foam.
> 
> We ask for glasses instead of plastic cups when we are out. If we are out drinking and get plastic cups, we ask for refills in these instead of having them thrown away each time.
> 
> We ask for no straws in our drinks.
> 
> We try to trade books instead of buying new ones.
> 
> When we shower, we don't let the water run free.
> 
> We use rags instead of paper towels.
> 
> When on picnics with friends, we take our dishes and silverware instead of using disposables.
> 
> We use natural cleaners like vinegar, baking soda, and lemon.
> 
> We tend to buy biodegradables and organic products.
> 
> Every once in while we sit down and try to figure out something else that we can do.


There's a local company here that has developed technology to take garbage and process it into an inert substance kinda like sawdust. It can then be used for many things, one of which is being converted back into energy. They just went online in Aruba last year and are working with more islands I believe. Let me know if you want their website, not sure if I should post it. I'm not trying to blatantly promote them but thought you might find it interesting.


----------



## zeehag

not just the sailinjg ground, me friend--there is more to lose than merely sailing grounds.


----------



## ROSA

k1vsk said:


> Don't know where you get your info from but a boom is a boom; a "sweeper" boom is simply a boom used to collect oil into a trough in which a skimmer is used to remove the surface layer. Also, where did "_Neither have they tried to use SWEEPER BOOMS, not containment booms."
> 
> From the _May 4, 2010 Operations Report: "196 total vessels (including tugs and skimmers); *486,940 feet boom deployed; 668,081 feet boom available".
> 
> *It's difficult enoughto form an objective opinion without mis-statements.*
> 
> I'll leave it to someone smarter than me to figure out what incentive the government or BP would have to intentionally slow down the cleanup. Any evidence? Or is this another perception?
> *


I now get my information from the mainstream media in addition to other sources. It seems that the media is now describing and showing new booms being used in the effort. They call them Absorbing Booms. So there are actually Absorbing Booms and Containment Booms out there. They have both been around for a while.

Just maybe the main stream media is beginning to smell more than the oil too. They are reporting now on the chemicals being used as devastating. Maybe they are reading Greenpeace now too, and maybe they also have confidential sources. It seems that Greenpeace, had this one right all along.

If the media is not careful they too will also incur the wrath of the TIN HAT SOCIETY, here on SN. Or maybe we can call it the Ostrich Society. I nominate BLJones as chairman of the board.


----------



## nolatom

Is it asking too much for all of us to refrain from the personal digs? We don't need, nor do we learn anything from, comments about who's "ignorant", or whose posts reflect unfavorable "character", or who is the new personification of (whatever).

Sometimes done in the guise of humor, they simply raise the heat level without shedding any light.


----------



## ROSA

bljones said:


> Yes, I am full of hate.
> I hate innuendo.
> I hate rumours.
> I hate conspiracy theories.
> I hate passive/aggressive behaviour.
> I hate the view held by some that every opinion is valid and deserves equal time, no matter how vile, misguided, unsubstantiated, uninformed, ill-informed, or poorly formed.
> 
> I did not insult you- I offered you a piece of non-judgemental advice. I warned you to "pump your brakes." That you decided to view my advice as an insult is your problem, not mine.
> 
> Yes, your volunteer status is YOUR business.... right up until you complained about what is being done in what you claim are YOUR sailing grounds. I figure, if you aren't part of the solution in your own back yard, you don't have a whole lot to complain about. I further figure that if you are willing to write a post with a hazy story of discovering corporate corruption at your employer that was so heinous that it caused you to leave the company, that you would certainly trumpet your insider cred by telling us what you are doing to solve this problem. Since you have been eager to deride the efforts made so far to clean up this fiasco based on the rumours you hear from your inside sources, and seeing as you are concerned enough to have devoted almost half of your Sailnet post total to this topic, I figured you might actually be concerned enough to contribute to the solution, and show us some leadership and environmental responsibility.
> 
> But apparently your invaluable contribution to the cleanup effort consists of...
> complaining.
> 
> Based on the evidence, or lack thereof, I figure you are just one more keyboard kommando. Of course, I might be wrong.


And just what gives you the right to warn me about anything? I did not quit the job, I retired.

There is no conspiracy Theory involved here. It is not a conspiracy when it is really happening. Big Oil and Government have been in bed for too long. They have been conspiring for years to use the publics property for profit with no concern for the consequences. BP has , (see todays news) donated to Obama, and many others. (See todays news) Safety Guidelines were relaxed by the Government recently. No theory here sir, this is a well documented, real deal. I bet you are a charter member of Rush 24/7.


----------



## bljones

Don't go to Vegas, ROSA. Unless you are talking about Rush, the band, I have to say i am not a fan. But thanks for playing.

Why does the paranoid persecution brigade of the united brotherhood of victims always think that adding spurious capitalization to their nonsense makes it either more important, or more ominous?

"Theory", "Big Oil", "Safety Guidelines", "Government"... I am not sure whether to laugh or cry.

BTW, since when does anyone, myself included, need "the right" to warn anyone about anything? If you were about to slip on a banana peel, would you be complaining that I had "no right' to warn you?


Whether I had the right or not, I was attempting to prevent you from looking like an ass. The fact that you ignored the warning is your problem, not mine. if you want to paint a bullseye on your back, don't be surprised if some takes verbal shots at you. 

BTW, a half- week to formulate a response to my post? I am not sure whether to be flattered that it took you this long to come up with something you thought was eloquent, or dismayed that after all this time, this was the best you could come up with. I'll look for your reply to this post around, oh, Tuesday.


----------



## ROSA

bljones said:


> Don't go to Vegas, ROSA. Unless you are talking about Rush, the band, I have to say i am not a fan. But thanks for playing.
> 
> Why does the paranoid persecution brigade of the united brotherhood of victims always think that adding spurious capitalization to their nonsense makes it either more important, or more ominous?
> 
> "Theory", "Big Oil", "Safety Guidelines", "Government"... I am not sure whether to laugh or cry.
> 
> BTW, since when does anyone, myself included, need "the right" to warn anyone about anything? If you were about to slip on a banana peel, would you be complaining that I had "no right' to warn you?
> 
> Whether I had the right or not, I was attempting to prevent you from looking like an ass. The fact that you ignored the warning is your problem, not mine. if you want to paint a bullseye on your back, don't be surprised if some takes verbal shots at you.
> 
> BTW, a half- week to formulate a response to my post? I am not sure whether to be flattered that it took you this long to come up with something you thought was eloquent, or dismayed that after all this time, this was the best you could come up with. I'll look for your reply to this post around, oh, Tuesday.


To quote the chairman of the board, "Yadda, Yadda, Yadda!"


----------



## zeehag

https://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/2931/542947/


----------



## douglasb

I'm in Treasure Island FL, (Tampa/St. Pete area) and tonight I smell a fuel smell in the air which is rather strong. I hope it is "only" from a nearby bridge construction site, but there are west/northwest winds tonight and it smells like oil to me.


----------



## w1651

*Didn't Smell oil this weekend*



douglasb said:


> I'm in Treasure Island FL, (Tampa/St. Pete area) and tonight I smell a fuel smell in the air which is rather strong. I hope it is "only" from a nearby bridge construction site, but there are west/northwest winds tonight and it smells like oil to me.


And I live here in Saint Petersburg Florida also.

I do not believe anyone wanted this to happen but with that said I have to agree with Rosa that big oil has gotten away with a lot for a long time. Just look how much a gallon of gasoline costs these days. 2.83 here in Florida when it is at 2.00 a barrel prices. 
The Speculaters on Wall Street need a good Thumping too. But that is another thread. 
I also believe these dispursements cannot be good for anything living in the gulf. 
It is painfully obvious that what we need to do is one STOP the leaking oil and two get the government and the other regulating bodies to start enforcing their own rules and regulations. 
This oil leak hits to close to home for lot of people and many of them have a vested interest in oil,tourism,fishing, and other hospitality industries.
What it boils down to is what I have said before. Someone has got to roll up their sleeves and get in the water and stop this leak. 
If you want I will give it a try but get the F*%K out of the way so I can teach these slow A$$, Over thinking, No common Sense, inbred, Morons how to grab the bull by the horns and not think about it, don't kick it around,don't talk it over amongst yourselves but GET IT DONE!!!!


----------



## k1vsk

w1651 said:


> And I live here in Saint Petersburg Florida also.
> 
> I also believe these dispursements cannot be good for anything living in the gulf.
> 
> This oil leak hits to close to home for lot of people Someone has got to roll up their sleeves and get in the water and stop this leak.
> If you want I will give it a try but get the F*%K out of the way so I can teach these slow A$$, Over thinking, No common Sense, inbred, Morons how to grab the bull by the horns and not think about it, don't kick it around,don't talk it over amongst yourselves but GET IT DONE!!!!


Okay - But before you "get in the water" and "teach these slow ass...", you might want to know it is dispersants, not "dispursements" which I'll assume is indicative of your understanding of these chemicals.

*What specifically is it that you would do that isn't being done?*

Comments like yours speak volumes about your credibility when you criticize others who are risking their lives working to contain, control and clean up this mess.

You probably wouldn't even notice or care if it was on the west coast of the U.S. but I'd be willing to apologize if you could show me *how many times you have worked or even written about large oil spills throughout the world that didn't occur in your back yard.*

If you REALLY want to make a difference, remember how Obama, just recently before this spill, advocated to expand offshore drilling in the Gulf and vote accordingly at the next election.


----------



## w1651

k1vsk said:


> Okay - But before you "get in the water" and "teach these slow ass...", you might want to know it is dispersants, not "dispursements" which I'll assume is indicative of your understanding of these chemicals.
> 
> *What specifically is it that you would do that isn't being done?*
> 
> Comments like yours speak volumes about your credibility when you criticize others who are risking their lives working to contain, control and clean up this mess.
> 
> You probably wouldn't even notice or care if it was on the west coast of the U.S. but I'd be willing to apologize if you could show me *how many times you have worked or even written about large oil spills throughout the world that didn't occur in your back yard.*
> 
> If you REALLY want to make a difference, remember how Obama, just recently before this spill, advocated to expand offshore drilling in the Gulf and vote accordingly at the next election.


Your right k1vsk

Anyone that cannot spell dispersant is completely off base and ignorant to the situation.
But I will try to explain what could be done but if you feel the need to take a nap because of boredom please do so. I don't want to be accused of you missing your nap time. 
Especially as cranky as you get when you do.
The fact is the U.S. Government has at its disposal several submersibles it could use that can and do go in excess of 5000 feet. they could and should have been shipped in already at BP's expense. 
This tragedy happened close to three weeks ago maybe just maybe it's time to pick up the pace? But what do I know I can't even spell dispersant.
Oh wait that is wrong because our government didn't even consider it a problem until 9 days after this happened. This is obviously because Obama hates fishermen and fish. He must have had to eat it a lot as a kid in Hawaii.
These submersibles are even manned so you don't have to rely on a joystick and cameras from the surface to command them. I wonder if it would be easier to stop this leak if you could get right up on it and see it from a port window instead of a cameras on a submersible 5000 feet down with inadequate lighting for the situation? No probably not. I don't know what I am thinking. Are you still there? Have you gone nighty nighty yet?
But I'm not credible and what do I know I can't even spell dispersant. If you want you can take a nap now so this thread doesn't wear you out. Go ahead nappy nappy time I won't mind I can wait.
And you are right there are some fine individuals on CG ships risking their lives. As we all know just being on the water has inherent risks in itself. And those BP guys in a room on a platform trying to guide a submersible 5000 feet down with a joystick. Well! The risks there go without saying.
Oh by the way, I never said I was against off shore drilling. I actually think that we need to be more self sufficient in this country. But I don't want to come off as to ignorant so I will digress on that subject other then, How much of the oil from Alaska goes to Japan again? Do you have the figures on that? Well it's not important and I don't want to keep you up.
Your right I have no credibility and I am just talking trash here about things I don't have a clue about. 
I just hope the next time you go to dinner and opt for the fish you enjoy your tumors.

sweet dreams


----------



## LookingForCruiser

w1651 said:


> The fact is the U.S. Government has at its disposal several submersibles it could use that can and do go in excess of 5000 feet. they could and should have been shipped in already at BP's expense.


You realize that was the first thing they tried? The oil was too thick down there, the submersibles couldn't see anything. They were remote submersibles, not manned. They also weren't US Govt submersibles. Doesn't matter who the owner was of course...


----------



## GraemeInCanada

This is a big issue, we should get back to the facts instead of bantering back and forth against each other. The fact of the matter is that we've got a huge amount of oil about to make landfall. Some of it is destined for the open sea and most likely up the east coast. This isn't in my backyard because I'm on the west coast of Canada and I'll never see or smell the oil, but I'm quite sure I'll feel the effects of it. The whole world will.

On a related note, anybody hear anything about the lost 11 people? Did they just fall into the ocean and get lost? incinerated perhaps? went down with the rig?


----------



## k1vsk

_Current activities include:
Total response vessels: more than 290
Boom deployed: more than 1.1 million feet (regular plus sorbent boom)
Boom available: more than 1.4 million feet (regular plus sorbent boom)
Oily water recovered: approximately 3.6 million gallons
Dispersant used: approximately 372,000 gallons
Dispersant available: approximately 180,000 gallons
Overall personnel responding: approximately 10,000

If interested in the speed with which response actions have been taken, one can find this info at:

Ongoing response timeline

If these numbers were doubled and the response was quicker, some would still complain.

*What I can't figure out is why so many are so eager blame or criticize the government and BP and absolutely no one has figured out it's Transocean and Deepwater Horizons which bears almost total culpability.*
_


----------



## GraemeInCanada

That's an easy one, let's see if I can help you understand.

BP is the parent company. It's their policies that trickle down to their contractors. With bad policies that don't take into account that accidents can happen and take proactive measures that GUARANTEE that this doesn't happen, it makes them responsible.

While BP and other big oil companies constantly lobby for deregulation of the oil industry and constant drilling in protected and sensitive areas (as you mentioned, your president was all for doing more drilling in all kinds of places!) we will still put up our argument against them. It's important to hold them responsible and hopefully they will lobby less for deregulation and rampant raping of the planet and more for safety (so that those 11 people could have gone home to their families to celebrate mother's day) and protection of the environment that they take some much advantage of.

Hopefully that answers your question.

Of course we would complain. It's the fact that this happened in the first place that you're not taking into account. It's not like the oil industry or the government actually had a plan in place, most of that is grassroots movements, environmentalists and business owners protecting their investment in the environment that they live in and making a living off of.


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## w1651

*Ya your right*

And if you rent a car and get into an accident with it Hertz or Enterprise is to blame.


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## GraemeInCanada

Possibly, if there was something wrong with the car that they should have checked.. but I suspect that is just a dig at my post. What's the use in that?


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## w1651

GraemeInCanada said:


> Possibly, if there was something wrong with the car that they should have checked.. but I suspect that is just a dig at my post. What's the use in that?


Not a dig at you at all GraemInCanada. It was meant for k1vsk. He seems to be under the influence that the people leasing the rig to BP might be at fault for the spill. I personally think it was an act of god and no one could have done a thing about it. 
But like you posted earlier there should be in place some kind of procedure for just this type of event.

Sorry for not clarifying it on previous post.


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## GraemeInCanada

Oh I see, sorry about that then 

Not sure about an act of god myself, but I think it was preventable from not only the position of before even getting a drill in the ground but also being more careful with the equipment used. It's not like this is the first time they've had wells blow out.. and at the very very least it could have been acted upon much much faster and more efficiently. I can't even imagine why the president reacted so late.

But that's all water under the bridge now I suppose..


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## k1vsk

w1651 said:


> And if you rent a car and get into an accident with it Hertz or Enterprise is to blame.


I don't have the inclination to discuss the liability scheme in the OPA with you except to say your metaphor is misplaced. In your analogy, Transocean is the automobile driver; BP is the equivalent of Hertz or Enterprise. Using your metaphor, I trust you can figure out why you are wrong.

BP certainly is liable under the OPA as are the operator, owner and transporter(s) jointly and severally, i.e., Transocean, Deepwater Horizon, etc....are equally liable although not all equally culpable. My point is that it appears people can only spell BP and prefer to take exception to my statement and draw uninformed conclusions.


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## w1651

*Read the post again*



k1vsk said:


> I don't have the inclination to discuss the liability scheme in the OPA with you except to say your metaphor is misplaced. In your analogy, Transocean is the automobile driver; BP is the equivalent of Hertz or Enterprise. Using your metaphor, I trust you can figure out why you are wrong.
> 
> BP certainly is liable under the OPA as are the operator, owner and transporter(s) jointly and severally, i.e., Transocean, Deepwater Horizon, etc....are equally liable although not all equally culpable. My point is that it appears people can only spell BP and prefer to take exception to my statement and draw uninformed conclusions.


Trans Ocean is the owner of the rig but BP is the company drilling the well leasing the rig. Which makes transocean Hertz or Enterprise in the analogy and BP the driver. 
But what do I know I can only spell BP.


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## k1vsk

Using your own example, you are minding your business driving properly down the street, obeying all traffic laws, when your Hertz car blows up. According to your logic, it is your fault!
Now back to dispursing more info on dispersants...


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## ericread

k1vsk said:


> Using your own example, you are minding your business driving properly down the street, obeying all traffic laws, when your Hertz car blows up. According to your logic, it is your fault!
> Now back to dispursing more info on dispersants...


This question is what caused the blow up? Was it a failure in BP's technical process, or a material defect in the platform itself. Until we get more information, there is no answer.

BTW: Didn't BP re-brand itself as "BP - Beyond Petroleum"? 

The other item to be analyzed is the poor safety record of BP. From the Alaska pipeline break (failure to maintain the lines) to the Texas refinery explosion, and now to the offshore drilling issue. Seems more than coincidental that BP seemingly has a somewhat poor safety/environmental record.

And on to my last item; It seems interesting that a failure on a single drilling platform caused a rapid rise in fuel pump prices. There's a good possibility that BP won't lose a cent as the increased fuel proces may more than offset the cost of "cleanup". While BP may incurr a $1B or so in costs related to this disaster, the real costs will be incurred by states in the loss of fishing, tourism, and employment within those areas.

Eric


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## w1651

*No not really*



k1vsk said:


> Using your own example, you are minding your business driving properly down the street, obeying all traffic laws, when your Hertz car blows up. According to your logic, it is your fault!
> Now back to dispursing more info on dispersants...


Driving down the road minding my own business and the car blows up. Okay that part I agree with. 
You left out lighting a cigarette with a fuel leak from hopping a curb dislodging the fuel line causing a fuel leak a mile back.


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## k1vsk

This adds nothing substantive to the discussion


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## w1651

Ericread is right

BP has completely neglected their responsibility here. They are the ones operating the rig and are responsible for any and all safety and environmental regulations and laws. 
When has fuel in this country been anything but a game? First we don't have enough refinery capacity then we don't have enough crude on reserve. I have been complaining about this game since I first started playing it. Thank god that the farmers in the Dakotas are finally tapping oil supplies there (to the displeasure of the EPA) and maybe building a new modern refinery. 
The other thing I would add is this: Who designed and built the valve at the base of the well. This is the piece of equipment that could not fail under any circumstances but did. And now we are looking at possibly the worst ecological disaster in history of the gulf. Maybe instead of putting in one valve they should install a backup in line with the first from now on.


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## zeehag

considering those blow off valves have a high percent fail rate in shallower water, wtf did anyone think it would do in deep water ,,,lol especially AFTER THE MUD WAS REMOVED!!!?????


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## poopdeckpappy

ericread said:


> Seems more than coincidental that BP seemingly has a somewhat poor safety/environmental record.


And yet, knowing all this they lobbied for exemptions including exemption from EIR's and received said exemption from the current administration and environmental agencies a week to ten days prior to the spill.....................why?


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## sailhog

Anyone catch those hearings yesterday? Oh my freaking god. The Halliburton, BP and TO guys are the biggest douchebags ever to walk the earth, and yet they are the ones in charge of companies that can wreak untold damage on the Gulf... 

I think some civil unrest may be in order.


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## QuickMick

sailhog, did they mention the lawsuit thats been brought by the worker alleging that they were drilling beyond their permitted depth?


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## w1651

Lock and load buddy I'm on my way. The revolution is long over due. Jefferson was right!

At least it wasn't five bankers telling the House Finance Committee they don't have to tell what they did with our tax dollars. And then watching the congressmen and women taking that answer like the little sissy peter puffers they are. 
I watched that stuff yesterday when I got home from work. What actually got accomplished? It's a good thing I am not rich I couldn't sit there and keep my composer like that. Or maybe our leader just don't care anymore.


----------



## QuickMick

somehow im not placing much faith in the 'shredded tire and golf ball' method of plugging that thing. seems like that is akin to putting out the chicago fire by peeing on it. im starting to think there is a very likely possibility that this flippin' think wont stop until that relief well is done some 80 days out.


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## w1651

QuickMick said:


> somehow im not placing much faith in the 'shredded tire and golf ball' method of plugging that thing. seems like that is akin to putting out the chicago fire by peeing on it. im starting to think there is a very likely possibility that this flippin' think wont stop until that relief well is done some 80 days out.


They are trying everything they can throw at it. Including tires,scrap,the kitchen sink etc...
How feasible is it to use set charges to completely close the well under the ocean floor? Coiuld the navy set the charges to do it? Just a thought I had last night.


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## ericread

w1651 said:


> They are trying everything they can throw at it. Including tires,scrap,the kitchen sink etc...
> How feasible is it to use set charges to completely close the well under the ocean floor? Coiuld the navy set the charges to do it? Just a thought I had last night.


The scary part is that setting charges, or even curring off the existing pipe to put a new preventer in place could greatly increase the amount of oil being discharged - with no guarantee the process would work to stop/reduce the spill.

I keep hearing that this is the cost of getting energy; That blowouts ocurr. The frustrating part is that these same companies were telling us for years that they only used tried and true, high technology-based equipment so that such undersea drilling was safe.

So the question remains; It is a fair price to pay (the potential for such a massive oil spill) for the small percentage of oil we actually get from off-shore drilling? Maybe we can collectively say that we can abandon the beaches of the Gulf, and allow the fouling of these waters in the name of lower priced gasoline.

A few of you may remember the Santa Barbara, CA oil spill from a few decades ago. When you wade off the beaches of Santa Barbara today, your skin is covered by a film of oil - decades later. The only creative advantage, Santa Barbara now has an untimate frisbee team who calls themselves "The Black Tide".

So do we learn from our mistakes, or just accept the consequences?

Eric


----------



## sailhog

QuickMick said:


> somehow im not placing much faith in the 'shredded tire and golf ball' method of plugging that thing. seems like that is akin to putting out the chicago fire by peeing on it. im starting to think there is a very likely possibility that this flippin' think wont stop until that relief well is done some 80 days out.


Mick,
They disputed the allegation that they were drilling too deep at the time of the explosion. They acknowledged that they'd had a problem with the BOP a few hours beforehand.

I'm with you on your pessimism. If clogging it would work, they would have done it by now. I think there's a danger of actually making the leak worse -- much, much worse -- if they do something like that. If the little "top hat" deal doesn't work, it would be my guess we're hosed. I'm working and living on the Florida panhandle and people are utterly pissed/heartbroken over this whole thing.


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## sailhog

You know who has a British accent? The Wombat! Let's go kick that bastard's @ss!


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## sailhog

I realize the Wombat is Australian... but the Aussies are all descended from the Brits, which means he can't be trusted. God, his accent is too much for me right now... it's "Blimey this" and "Bullocks to that...." And he's always mispronouncing "schedule."


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## tdw

sailhog said:


> I realize the Wombat is Australian... but the Aussies are all descended from the Brits, which means he can't be trusted. God, his accent is too much for me right now... it's "Blimey this" and "Bullocks to that...." And he's always mispronouncing "schedule."


Cor Blimey Guvna ! I'm jist a 'umble rodent yor Lordship sir. Oi didunt mean no 'arm. Convict stock and all that....saw the stepladder....had the camera.....wot do youse xpeckt from one so down on his uppers....

Honestly the cheek of the man.....no more horsing around with you Mr Hog.

So look here you scrawny excuse for an uncooked pork chop....I'll have you know that I am a highly respected, longstanding member of this community and I will not tolerate abuse from the likes of you. Retract Sir, or I will release the tape....and neigh me no neighs you grotty wee rasher...you know of what I speak.

and its BOLLOCKS you swizzle stick.

Honestly, the quality of posts in this place is plumbing new depths.

You'll be hearing from my solicitors. Picket and Scratchett, Attorneys at Law.


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## tdw

In all seriousness....all this begs the question what now for deep sea drilling and probably as importantly what of Alaska ?


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## w1651

Like I said the Dakotas are sitting on top of one of the largest reserves in the nation. And the farmers are starting to drill their own wells in their back yards. If we only had a big refinery for them.


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## RAGNAR

Simple = brilliant

YouTube - CWRoberts Presentation 2.wmv


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## QuickMick

and the hits just keep on comin'.

BP oil leak worse than previously thought - MarketWatch

if there is any positive to come of this, maybe people who are normally oblivious to the happenings of the world may finally wake up and say, _" what are we doing to our planet?_"


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## remetau

It perplexes me to see how much this has dropped out of the headlines. LeBron James is getting more coverage. How sad is that?


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## k1vsk

We are all too short-sighted. Every time there is a major oil spill, people come out of the woodwork to complain, media interest peeks, Congress tries to look proactive and the public outcry is loudest. After a short time, everyone seems to forget and things go back to business as usual. One need only look at the aftermath of the 91 Exxon Valdes spill to see what permanent changes were made - about the only tangible difference is the requirement for double bottoms which still isn't applicable to pre-existing tankers.

This Gulf spill too will pass and everyone will forget the incident and life will go on with lots of environmental impact assessments, litigation and more Tiger Woods stories usurping the headlines.

The ironic part is that the people who complain the most now will soon become totally silent again until the next one and wonder why nothing has changed.


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## nolatom

k1vsk said:


> We are all too short-sighted. Every time there is a major oil spill, people come out of the woodwork to complain, media interest peeks, Congress tries to look proactive and the public outcry is loudest. After a short time, everyone seems to forget and things go back to business as usual. One need only look at the aftermath of the 91 Exxon Valdes spill to see what permanent changes were made - about the only tangible difference is the requirement for double bottoms which still isn't applicable to pre-existing tankers.
> 
> This Gulf spill too will pass and everyone will forget the incident and life will go on with lots of environmental impact assessments, litigation and more Tiger Woods stories usurping the headlines.
> 
> The ironic part is that the people who complain the most now will soon become totally silent again until the next one and wonder why nothing has changed.


I'm thinking of just before Katrina. The summer media was "All Gary Condit, all shark attacks, all the time". Afterwards, driving around as a refugee, the typical pop culture and alleged "news" items seemed ten times more vapid than usual, I couldn't listen to it. Nor to the endless hurricane stories. The classical music channel was my only solace.

Now, it's like sitting out a hurricane, but more prolonged. It's out there, you feel the first "outer bands", but don't know where or how bad it's going to end up. And you can't evacuate from it.

Lesson learned: don't judge your situation, or your life, by media coverage, or lack thereof.


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## Insails

nolatom said:


> I'm thinking of just before Katrina. The summer media was "All Gary Condit, all shark attacks, all the time". Afterwards, driving around as a refugee, the typical pop culture and alleged "news" items seemed ten times more vapid than usual, I couldn't listen to it. Nor to the endless hurricane stories. The classical music channel was my only solace.
> 
> Now, it's like sitting out a hurricane, but more prolonged. It's out there, you feel the first "outer bands", but don't know where or how bad it's going to end up. And you can't evacuate from it.
> 
> Lesson learned: don't judge your situation, or your life, by media coverage, or lack thereof.


After Camille,Frederic,Opal,Ivan and Katrina you think we would be used to natural disasters by now.....But like you say this waiting is far worse and the impact on our area may be greater....We are just recovering from Ivan and Katrina...UNCLE!!!...Sad thing is this is looking more and more like it shouldn't of ever happened....hence the media not getting envolved it would make too many look bad who is PAYING them....


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## w1651

Insails said:


> After Camille,Frederic,Opal,Ivan and Katrina you think we would be used to natural disasters by now.....But like you say this waiting is far worse and the impact on our area may be greater....We are just recovering from Ivan and Katrina...UNCLE!!!...Sad thing is this is looking more and more like it shouldn't of ever happened....hence the media not getting envolved it would make too many look bad who is PAYING them....


Ever since Hurst ran newspapers the Press in this country has completely shirked it's god given responsibility to report the news. 
What is even worse is it is our own fault. We throng for the Tiger Woods , and the Jay Leno stories. Meanwhile the Press doesn't do the job that our forfathers expected of them to do. It's a shame to our country and a disgrace to our nation. 
What was the last good piece of investigative journalism? Water Gate maybe!


----------



## Insails

Famous Marine Biologist for studies on the Exon Valdiz disaster at Orange Beach ,Alabama, preparing residents for what may be coming..

Exxon Valdez veteran, marine biologist on oil spill's impact on fishing







Marine biologist Riki Ott on human health risks of oil exposure


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## KeelHaulin

A scientist was on Fox news yesterday who said that the flow coming out of that pipe was about 10x higher than the government and BP has claimed (5k barrels per day estimate by BP). His estimate was 50 to 70k barrels per day using computer analysis of the flow which has been known/standard since the late 1980's.

That's an Exxon Valdez every 3 days going into the Gulf


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## k1vsk

KeelHaulin said:


> A scientist was on Fox news yesterday who said that the flow coming out of that pipe was about 10x higher than the government and BP has claimed (5k barrels per day estimate by BP). His estimate was 50 to 70k barrels per day using computer analysis of the flow which has been known/standard since the late 1980's.
> 
> That's an Exxon Valdez every 3 days going into the Gulf


We should be skeptical of anyone who claims they know better than anyone else what is really being discharged. Volume and pressure out of a specific diameter pipe is simple to equate to a discharge flow rate in normal conditions but this is far from normal and someone who claims they can model it or run a computer analysis with "standard" assumptions is particularly dubious.


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## fjon

k1vsk said:


> We should be skeptical of anyone who claims they know better than anyone else what is really being discharged. Volume and pressure out of a specific diameter pipe is simple to equate to a discharge flow rate in normal conditions but this is far from normal and someone who claims they can model it or run a computer analysis with "standard" assumptions is particularly dubious.


On PBS the other night, there was a reference to a non-profit with a name (which escapes me) that sounded like a Gulf of Mexico ocean environmental group, that was in fact a front for the major Petro companies, who held all the seats on the board of directors. If you are not being currently compensated by that or similar organization, your missing a great bet to fill the cruising kitty.

You seem to spend 3/4 or you waking hours on Sailnet belittling anyone who expresses concern over the ongoing catastrophe in the Gulf, and spinning all disclosures as a positive for big oil interests. If you are not being paid to do this, I am not psychologically trained enough to understand why you would do it. Anyone who is not appalled, concerned for the future, and a bit angry over the incompetence and corner-cutting greed displayed by the extractors of the Gulf oil, is either embedded so deep in ideology they can't see, or simply isn't in touch with reality.










NOAA Ocean Explorer: Expedition to the Deep Slope

There are nearly 4000 of these platforms currently active in the Gulf alone. How many of those have undetected corrosion, or flaws in structural materials, or whose safety checks were faked or short-cutted? Huh? We know it happens, even on nuclear power plants where the x-rays of welds were routinely faked during construction to cut costs. That became one of the nails in the coffin of nuclear plant construction. And when others of these 4k platforms begin to fail from these poor maintenance issues or _acts of god_ (insurers favorite phrase), like during the upcoming forcasted heavy hurricane season, then what? Yes we are clever cheeky animals and make amazing machines, but as any steel boat owner might tell you, rust never sleeps and machines decay. Don't you have a tea party to go to or something? Jeez.


----------



## k1vsk

fjon said:


> On PBS the other night, there was a reference to a non-profit with a name (which escapes me) that sounded like a Gulf of Mexico ocean environmental group, that was in fact a front for the major Petro companies, who held all the seats on the board of directors. If you are not being currently compensated by that or similar organization, your missing a great bet to fill the cruising kitty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Interesting deduction albeit you could not be more wrong in that I am an environmental and chemical engineer and have worked in the hazardous waste site and oil spill assessment and cleanup consulting areas for governments, non-profits and public agencies throughout my career doing env assessment and cleanup consulting, now retired. Never worked for or paid by the petrochemical industry, directly or otherwise

The antithesis of what you suggest!

My purpose in seemingly always commenting here is that far too many people make misleading, exaggerated or false claims about this spill and I'd prefer, apparently a futile hope, that people make informed decisions about it rather than be constantly fed by hysterical statements, Utube references, sensationalized media coverage and people who hate industry which they couldn't survive without.

Why you believe otherwise is both cynical and telling.


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## KeelHaulin

k1vsk said:


> We should be skeptical of anyone who claims they know better than anyone else what is really being discharged. Volume and pressure out of a specific diameter pipe is simple to equate to a discharge flow rate in normal conditions but this is far from normal and someone who claims they can model it or run a computer analysis with "standard" assumptions is particularly dubious.


No, this guy was a professor of computational fluid dynamics. I don't think he would stake his career and reputation on getting this wrong. It was not a back of an envelope calculation he did; he used a method that captures and measures the movement and flow of particles in a video image (the camera images of the flow exiting the pipe). This type of analysis is nothing new in fluid dynamics; and he seemed to think it was not a difficult analysis as there is now software that will read the video data and determine the velocity without hand calculations.


----------



## soulfinger

I won't dispute that this is a disaster, and I hope heads roll for it. However, I'm very skeptical about this guy's claims that the well is actually leaking at 70,000+ barrels per day. I don't care what he's a professor of; he watched a few seconds of grainy video and punted, now he's getting his 15 minutes. 

He forgot to do a reality check---can a well produce at that rate? I do deep-water developments for a living, and I know that wells anywhere don't produce at that sort of rate, even if we wanted them to. I, and no one I work with, has ever heard of a well flowing at that sort of rate, anywhere in the world, under even ideal circumstances. 

BP screwed up here, but I think we can all agree that nobody wants to stop this thing more than they do, and they're going to spend and do whatever it takes to stop it. All of the industry has made itself available to help them.

I'd have to disagree that all the 4000 or so platforms in the gulf are some sort of "ticking time bomb" full of cut corners and accidents waiting to happen. Offshore oil has been going on for so long in the gulf (not to mention the rest of the world). If there was a widespread problem, we'd know about it by now. Hurricane's plow through these fields every year without incident.


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## KeelHaulin

OK; I did the reverse math on this assuming 70,000 barrels per day. This will get us back to the flow rate number the scientist on FNC determined via the video flow analysis.

70,000BPD=3,850,000 Gal/Day = 160,416 Gal/Hour = 44.56 Gal/Sec = 5.95 CubicFeet/Sec

Pipe Diameter is 2 feet - Pipe cross-sectional Area=3.1415 Sq Ft

Divide the Volume Rate by the Pipe Area and you get:

Velocity of flow = 1.891 feet/second = 1.289 miles/hour.

That flow is not very fast; it means that if the pipe were continuous to the surface it would take the oil at the bottom of the tube 45 minutes to flow up to the surface.

If the 70,000 BPD number is for one pipe; the oil flowing out of the two failed pipes is more. If the calculation I did was assuming the total of 70,000 BPD is for both pipes; the flow velocity would be at about half the speed I calculated which makes it MORE plausible not less.


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## w1651

First it was the regulators not doing their jobs, then itr was the SEC not doing their jobs. Now it's the mineral agency (whatever that is) not doping their jobs in Washington. Do you ever get the feeling Washington is FUBAR and cannot be fixed?


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## w1651

*Fat Fingers*

Sorry for the typo's. I got fat fingers.


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## utchuckd

Keel-

When talking about crude oil, a barrel is 42 gallons, not 55.


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## k1vsk

His whole premise is wrong on many levels, not the least of which is that no well could produce 122,500 gph and even if it did, the well head would never withstand that pressure. It serves no purpose to quote some wack-job who claims he can calculate volume or discharge rate.

The reality is no credible person can precisely calculate flow rate coming from a mangled well casing broken in multiple places and even if he/anyone guessed, it is meaningless in terms of trying to equate volume to environmental impact. In every major oil spill, people focus on a discharge rate or volume of the spill which has little to do with anything other than sensationalizing headlines or satisfying some irrational need to have a number.

The true impacts will not be fully understood for a long time. The first real environmental assessment results won't be completed for years. No one will ever be able to quantify the amount of oil actually released and the oil company, driller, production company and their subsidiaries will litigate over this for decades.


----------



## bb32

Here is a link to the best article I have seen, by far, explaining the whole situation as it stands: Great Analysis Of Exactly What Is Going On

I'm sure the pathological apologists will rush in to make as many snide remarks and attention deflecting generalizations as they can come up with, but everybody else please spend a few minutes reading the whole thing.

The one thing I remember most vividly about any pictures or videos of the history of the oil industry is the gushers shooting 100 feet straight up in the air. What was the flow rate on those?


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## QuickMick

does this guy list any credentials? it sounds like he knows what he is saying, but some credentials would be nice


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## KeelHaulin

utchuckd said:


> When talking about crude oil, a barrel is 42 gallons, not 55.


Ok; that reduces the flow velocity by 42/55 - about 23.6%. So instead of 1.289 MPH the flow would be 0.98 MPH.

I don't know about you guys but to me a "gusher" should have a lot more flow velocity than that. Remember, this calculation is simply using an assumed value of 70,000 BPD to figure out what the pipe flow speed would be. The flow velocity is SMALL AND WITHIN THE REALM OF POSSIBLE. In some of the videos the stream of gas coming out horizontally for 12 inches before it rises makes the actual flow appear much higher than 1 MPH. If there is truth in the theory that the BOP is partially closed and the kinks in the pipe are restricting flow it would be an even worse situation if the full flow is realized.

Although my statements about what volume of flow may appear to be inflammatory against offshore drilling; I don't see that we as a nation have much choice but to continue to expand our offshore drilling across all of our coasts and exploration for new reserves. We can't let the environmentalists put a lid on the need to reduce our foreign oil dependence because of this spill. There are thousands of oil rigs in the gulf; and in 99.99% of them there has been no major accidents. The oil that has spilled into the gulf will be absorbed by the environment and life in the sea will prevail. It is a disaster for "us" economically and in the short-term; but remember, crude oil is naturally produced. It bubbles up all over the place and there are mechanisms in nature to deal with and absorb it. We can clean what has come ashore and sweep the surface for as much as possible to minimize the negative effects; but otherwise it will just take time for bacteria to reduce the oil and sea life to recover. In areas where sunken tar balls are abundant there are ecosystems that flourish as a result of the bio-available deposit of hydrocarbon. So you can look at it as a glass half full situation also. Short term effects are very negative; but long term effects on an ecosystem -may- actually be positive.


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## KeelHaulin

k1vsk said:


> His whole premise is wrong on many levels, not the least of which is that no well could produce 122,500 gph and even if it did, the well head would never withstand that pressure.


I have a pond pump that can move 5000 GPH at high velocity through 2" pipe. Why is it so impossible that 122,500 GPH can flow at LOW VELOCITY through a 24" pipe? A 24" pipe has a cross sectional area that is 144 times larger than a 2" pipe. A 22x higher volume through a 144x larger pipe means that the flow pressure and velocity will be much LOWER than a pond pump to achieve 122,500 GPH.

So an engineering professor from Prudue University (Steve Wereley) who has written a peer reviewed book on flow measurement is a whack job; eh?

70,000 Gallons of Oil Spilling Into Gulf Daily? - Video - FoxNews.com

(The headline is incorrect; it should say 70,000 BPD)


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## kd3pc

Keel

your pump is on the surface, and likely only has a few inches or feet of head to overcome.

Pressure at 5K feet is pretty substantial for the flow to be meeting and till produce those numbers the expert is talking about. It is amazing tome that otherwise intelligent people fail to understand that at those depths....simple tasks are nigh impossible and materials that work flawlessly on the surface, work like reynolds wrap at 5K feet...

I'm with K1 on this one...theory and practice, combined with a touch of mother nature..your mileage may vary..

disclaimer...I am but a mere mortal who is a scuba diver, common sense person.


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## remetau

*Oil in Key West*

Lovely, just lovely I tell ya:

Tar balls found off Key West, Fla., Coast Guard reports | NOLA.com


----------



## kd3pc

tar balls can be found on most any beach anymore, as the tankers routinely wash out, once off shore...

media wastes no time in blaming...

How did the tar balls get to all the east coast beaches in the early 70's??? Or is it our slanted media blaming, before the facts are in....at least the CG "suggests" waiting for the facts...


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## Insails

FACT: millions of gallons of oil have spewed into the Gulf of Mexico due to cutting corners and greed by BP OIL not the press..Why shoot the messenger? The oil is becoming entrained into the loop current in the Gulf Strem in the Gulf of Mexico...WHY blame the press who so far has been blacked out anywhere near the rig . Amazing the people who dont want to believe what is happening on the Gulf and of course it's mostly those who dont have to live here, mabe mext time BP craps in your ocean then I bet we see the biggest deniers become the biggest Cryers....That oil is going some where and BP has lied to all since day one...Even before day one . Time the finger pointing stopped you can't hide the truth..


----------



## manhattan08

If the tar balls are not there yet, they will soon be..... Very sad.....


----------



## Insails

This should open some eye's:


----------



## k1vsk

kd3pc said:


> tar balls can be found on most any beach anymore, as the tankers routinely wash out, once off shore...
> 
> media wastes no time in blaming...
> 
> How did the tar balls get to all the east coast beaches in the early 70's??? Or is it our slanted media blaming, before the facts are in....at least the CG "suggests" waiting for the facts...


According to Escambia County officials, " Testing has found that small tar balls that washed ashore on the Panhandle beaches are not from the Deepwater Horizon spill".

Identification of oil through GC analysis is analogous to fingerprinting and has been proven to be accurate in years of litigation.

"_WHY blame the press who so far has been blacked out anywhere near the  rig . Amazing the people who dont want to believe what is happening on the Gulf"

Because only the fanatics believe what they want despite attempts to impart reality. 
_ 
As KD3PC implies, So much for another frivolous claim. Let the hysteria continue.


----------



## Insails

Escambia County is not where the Keys are......So that DONT explain the tar balls found in the Keys...to assume it does is well................


----------



## Insails

k1vsk said:


> According to Escambia County officials, " Testing has found that small tar balls that washed ashore on the Panhandle beaches are not from the Deepwater Horizon spill".
> 
> Identification of oil through GC analysis is analogous to fingerprinting and has been proven to be accurate in years of litigation.
> 
> "_WHY blame the press who so far has been blacked out anywhere near the  rig . Amazing the people who dont want to believe what is happening on the Gulf"
> 
> Because only the fanatics believe what they want despite attempts to impart reality.
> _
> As KD3PC implies, So much for another frivolous claim. Let the hysteria continue.


SO the picture in post# 225 is fake too????
none of this is real because you say so....


----------



## remetau

k1vsk said:


> According to Escambia County officials, " Testing has found that small tar balls that washed ashore on the Panhandle beaches are not from the Deepwater Horizon spill".
> 
> Because only the fanatics believe what they want despite attempts to impart reality.


Key West is in Monroe County at the other end of the state.

Some day you or maybe your kids will wake up and realize that the air they breathe is no longer clean, the water is undrinkable, the oceans and waterways no longer have edible fish, the rain forests are dwindling, the lands are deforested and are turning into deserts, but hey, there is nothing to be fanatic about.


----------



## k1vsk

Insails said:


> SO the picture in post# 225 is fake too????
> none of this is real because you say so....


Your picture has nothing to do with what I said. 
If you prefer to twist my comments, go for it.

My point is, simply put, people should be free to form informed opinion, not ones based on, delusion, incorrect or misleading information as in the example I stated.


----------



## Insails

you are the one who used the county in the panhandle to explain tar balls in key west.....so you mislead...since when is Key west part of the Panhandle??


----------



## k1vsk

remetau said:


> Some day you or maybe your kids will wake up and realize that the air they breathe is no longer clean, the water is undrinkable, the oceans and waterways no longer have edible fish, the rain forests are dwindling, the lands are deforested and are turning into deserts, but hey, there is nothing to be fanatic about.


The air is already polluted with CO2, NOx, etc, pharmaceuticals are almost ubiquitous in our water, fish contain high levels of Hg, rain forests are gone, etc. We're already there!
All of which has nothing to do with this oil spill which is small on the global impact scale of global warming/climate change. And you only want to show indignation about this?
Give us a break!


----------



## Insails

I guess these scientest are wrong also but here is the link anyway:
Scientists: Spill could reach Fla. Keys by Sunday - Yahoo! News


----------



## remetau

k1vsk said:


> The air is already polluted with CO2, NOx, etc, pharmaceuticals are almost ubiquitous in our water, fish contain high levels of Hg, rain forests are gone, etc. We're already there!
> All of which has nothing to do with this oil spill which is small on the global impact scale of global warming/climate change. And you only want to show indignation about this?
> Give us a break!


It all has to do with this oil spill. I'm having déjà vu, because I swear we had this discussion earlier. This is just another accident on top of the many that have occurred and will occur again. I show indignation towards all of it, and yet you appear to be completely okay with it.


----------



## ericread

soulfinger said:


> I
> I'd have to disagree that all the 4000 or so platforms in the gulf are some sort of "ticking time bomb" full of cut corners and accidents waiting to happen. Offshore oil has been going on for so long in the gulf (not to mention the rest of the world). If there was a widespread problem, we'd know about it by now. Hurricane's plow through these fields every year without incident.


I would have to disagree with this comment. Just because we may have been lucky in the past doesn't mean there is no future risk.

Since the documentation and safety measures on the current oil rig collapse/spill have been demonstrated to be not within BP's own stated standards, it is prudent to question the safety processes and documentation on the other related rigs. Failure to follow standards is often a result of the "Tone at the top", which implies management has not performed adequately in supporting these processes.

This is further demonstrated by the recent maintenance failures by BP in Alaska, Texas and now this rig. This appears to result form a systemic failure by BP executive management to provide due care in extracting, transporting and refining their product.

"First it was the regulators not doing their jobs, then itr was the SEC not doing their jobs. Now it's the mineral agency (whatever that is) not doping their jobs in Washington. Do you ever get the feeling Washington is FUBAR and cannot be fixed?"

People should keep in mind that regulators make decisions based upon audits of people and processes. Auditing every single item would be onerous, so usually a sampling of the processes are reviewed by the auditors. It is always implied (and usually a legal requirement) that the attestations and documentation provided to the auditors via sampling properly represent the controls being audited. Additionally, details of any known material defects in the processes must be provided to the auditors as soon as they are discovered.

Should it be found that the regulators were not provided complete and accurate documentation, or that documentation or that known material defects were omitted, there could be a finding of fraudulent behavior, which then could involve criminal complaints. The question would then be at what level of management was this fraud perpetuated.

In this case, I agree that the regulators were way too cozy to the industry they were regulating. There needs to be significant changes to ensure there is a clear separation between the industry and the regulators.

But at what point do we finally realize that de-regulation doesn't work? And that only by enhancing regulatory requirements for the Banking, Stock Market and Oil industries will the public be able to trust these financial pillars of our economic system.

Eric 
Director, Regulatory Audit & Compliance
A really big company


----------



## k1vsk

Insails said:


> you are the one who used the county in the panhandle to explain tar balls in key west.....so you mislead...since when is Key west part of the Panhandle??


Thanks for the geography lesson - it is unnecessary. My quote was factual and correct.
The point being that just as the presence of tar balls in the panhandle signifies nothing, so too does it mean nothing elsewhere without GC testing.


----------



## k1vsk

remetau said:


> It all has to do with this oil spill. I'm having déjà vu, because I swear we had this discussion earlier. This is just another accident on top of the many that have occurred and will occur again. I show indignation towards all of it, and yet you appear to be completely okay with it.


I am not "okay" with people who post exaggerated or false statements in a veiled attempt at misleading others as you seem to persist in doing. This spill has the potential for long-term serious environmental impact but saying, as you have repeatedly implied, that it already has in the absence of any supportable evidence, is not helpful for anyone and further imputes your fleeting credibility. 
Please allow others to make informed judgments.


----------



## Boasun

Food for thought: 
We all know that the Gulf Stream, that Warm River of water flowing through the cold atlantic waters, originate in the Gulf of Mexico. Now if you look at the flow charts of the Gulf and the Atlantic you could almost guessimate where that Crude Oil will be flowing to.... 

Look at Pilot Chart 126


----------



## w1651

K1VSK is entitled to his opinion. If he wants to believe the things he has written he has the right to do so. 
However: If it walks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck. It's gotta be a Robin or a Dove. Right!


----------



## w1651

Eric Great Post
I think we have enough regulation here though. I would just insert thaqt what we are seeing is systemic through out our government. 
1. Bank regulators not able or handcuffed from doing their jobs
2. SEC not investigating Madoff when told it's to good to be true(Though not government agency I admit) 
3. SEC not looking at the proper controls and regulations when it comes to large investment companies. (Asleep at the wheel again)
4. The House and Senate completely disregarding the mood of the country.
5. And now the mining and mineral dept not doing their jobs at all. 
6. The southern borders wide open and crime so bad that Arizona has to fight illegal immigration itself to protect it's own citizens.
Is it any wonder this happened at all when not doing your job is not just rampant in our government but the culture of it.


----------



## nolatom

Excellent, this is why we all come to a sailing web site.


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## primerate84

I heard the oil spill was Bush's fault...


----------



## KeelHaulin

kd3pc said:


> your pump is on the surface, and likely only has a few inches or feet of head to overcome.
> 
> Pressure at 5K feet is pretty substantial for the flow to be meeting and till produce those numbers the expert is talking about. It is amazing tome that otherwise intelligent people fail to understand that at those depths....simple tasks are nigh impossible and materials that work flawlessly on the surface, work like reynolds wrap at 5K feet...


Except; that you don't understand anything about head pressure. The pressure in the oil deposit is higher than the pressure in the water at 5k feet; because thousands of feet of water, rock, and pressurized gas are pushing on it. The oil is pressurized higher than the water by a large amount so it has "head" pressure relative to the water at that depth. If it did not; there would be no oil spill to begin with.

The point I am making is that the number of 70,000 BPD is not unrealistic. The flow would be less than 1MPH coming out of the pipe; and that certainly looks like what is happening in the pictures (a steady stream that is not blasting out like a rocket motor; but not dribbling out either). Do you think the flow speed is 0.1 MPH as BP would have you believe?

You see, if you get the public to believe the flow is 10% of the actual number; you can make the claim later that the damage was not a substantial as it actually was. Remember, the "Spill is miniscule by comparison to the vastness of the Gulf" (words spoken by the CEO of BP) You can also say that you recovered 90% of the spill when you really only collected 9%. The actual flow number IS more important than just for the sake of knowing or creating a sensational headline.


----------



## k1vsk

One would need to know the head pressure differential to make any reasonable estimate of the discharge rate - that being impossible to determine makes any declarative statement about volume silly on it's face.

People want a number because they find it easier than grasping a concept. Example:
Take 1000 gals in the North Sea and it would go unnoticed with essentially no major environmental impacts. Take that same 1000 gallons and release it into your neighborhood park pond and everybody would go nuts over it.

If that doesn't demonstrate the insignificance of a spill estimate, you will never get the head pressure differential concept.


----------



## KeelHaulin

k1vsk said:


> One would need to know the head pressure differential to make any reasonable estimate of the discharge rate - that being impossible to determine makes any declarative statement about volume silly on it's face.


There is NO head pressure differential at the end of the pipe. The pressure is on the reservoir of oil that is thousands of feet below the sea floor. It is suspected that the blowout preventer is partially closed choking the flow from what would be a massive gusher. Where the oil is exiting the pipe; the pressure of the fluid is actually slightly lower than the surrounding water because the oil is flowing.

I beg to differ; the analysis method that Steve Wereley used has been around since the Mid-80's and I'm sure it's pretty well perfected by now (25 years later). You can't argue with science. What method was used to 'measure' the 5k BPD number? Anyone can dream up a number (or barter for one that sounds politically correct); but when a guy who knows fluid dynamics and flow measurement comes along and corrects the spin-doctors you call that guy a quack?

Again; quantifying the flow is important to know how much has spilled; and is still being spilled. Now they are saying that they are collecting 40% of the spill. Based on what number? If the flow is 10x higher they are only collecting 4% of the spill volume.


----------



## T37SOLARE

Seeing how Congress subpoenaed video of the wellhead today, we may get a realistic number soon. 

But whatever the number, it's way too much and it's going to impact the entire planet...


----------



## DulceSuerna

I flew over the spill today on my way to Houston. All I can say is I get the feeling that the media has minimized the severity of this situation (probably at the governments request or orders). The spill is Enormous, it covers a massive area that was visible from 30k feet. It has hit land in numerous places. Why arent we seeing this on the news is amazing to me or scary, that they do not have "freedom of press


----------



## MARC2012

Congress would not know a wellhead from the back side of a goat.If we could insert the bs from them in it the problem would be solved.


----------



## KeelHaulin

EDIT:


MARC2012 said:


> Congress would not know a wellhead from the back side of a goat.If we could *insert them in it* the problem would be solved.


That would be the ultimate "junk shot"


----------



## KeelHaulin




----------



## remetau

remetau said:


> Lovely, just lovely I tell ya:
> 
> Tar balls found off Key West, Fla., Coast Guard reports | NOLA.com


The CG reported that thus far the tar balls washing ashore in the keys are not from the major oil leak in the gulf.


----------



## Insails

So BP now runs the coast Guard and is using our Coast Guard to attack the media who tries to report what is really happening...UNREAL!
Time for the people of the Gulf Coast and The United States to make a stand
Coast Guard Under 'BP's Rules' - CBS News Video


----------



## k1vsk

KeelHaulin said:


> There is NO head pressure differential at the end of the pipe.
> 
> I beg to differ; the analysis method that Steve Wereley used has been around since the Mid-80's and I'm sure it's pretty well perfected by now (25 years later). You can't argue with science.


One last, probably futile try ---

the differential pressure to which I and other refer is that between the well head and the water column above it, nothing to do with the well pressure. I assume you confuse that point intentionally?

The so-called "science" and you ignores the fact the well head is under 5000 feet of water.

Again, it is irrelevant as the volume released and the environmental impact of any spill are more often than not mutually exclusive things but that too I will presume you want to ignore.

The more you dismiss these realities, the less credibility your statements have so feel free to continue.


----------



## k1vsk

Insails said:


> So BP now runs the coast Guard and is using our Coast Guard to attack the media who tries to report what is really happening...UNREAL!
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com


This is both ignorant and insulting.

I suppose you have seen the gas chromatograph results of the oil analysis to make this informed statement?

Guess it didn't show what you wanted?

The sailors among us know what the CG does and we respect them for it. Anyone how says what you did here demonstrates their total disregard of the truth and if you had any character, you would apologize.


----------



## Insails

I will not apologize to you or anyone else....Are You are calling CBS ignorant or me?..


----------



## w1651

I have to admit that the CG has and is doing a fine job in a very tough situation. To say the CG is not being forth coming and minimizing this situation is a little bit of a stretch even for me. And I am as Untrusting or more so as anyone else. 
I don't doubt there is a lot of pressure on the CG to get this resolved as quickly as possible. but to say they are working for BP,Obama,the Government, or have fabricated the results here is a even longer stretch for me to grasp.


----------



## Insails

AGAIN...I just posted a link from CBS..its CBS saying that BP used the CoastGuard to black out the press from that particular Island in the Gulf

The Coast Guard has 12000 people working this spill and they have closed 19% of the Gulf for fishing...

I think we need CBS,NBC,CNN,FOX the BBC and all media to have acess if we are to find the truth...BP has lied since day one and congress had to threaten BP to get a film of the leak....

IF BP is not trying to cover up something why not allow the media in????...
After all the media goes to WAR ZONES where there is a much greater risk of loss of life.....


----------



## Boasun

There are no rules that would stop the media from chartering a Helicopter and flying out over that island. And many of the local TV stations down here have their own helicopters that could fly out over that island if they wanted to... 
So that Blackout of the News media really don't wash with me.


----------



## Cruisingdad

I would just like everyone to remember that we need to have a discussion that does not get personal.


----------



## QuickMick

cant we all just get along.... i would think _we are all on the same team here_, it seems that an accurate measure will probably elude us forever no matter the system used to ascertain it...

While I cant break loose to volunteer, does anyone know of a credible charity donations can be made to help mitigate the damage?


----------



## therapy23

QuickMick said:


> While I cant break loose to volunteer, does anyone know of a *credible charity *donations can be made to help mitigate the damage?


You can hardly trust anyone with donations these days. Even the laws allow companies to keep the great majority of monies for "expenses".

Having said that, you can send me all your money. I will provide therapy for those in need.


----------



## k1vsk

QuickMick said:


> cant we all just get along.... i would think _we are all on the same team here_, it seems that an accurate measure will probably elude us forever no matter the system used to ascertain it...
> 
> While I cant break loose to volunteer, does anyone know of a credible charity donations can be made to help mitigate the damage?


You might consider the Red Cross which has been and continues to supply meals to the myriad of response workers currently working to contain and collect oil at numerous places in multiple states.


----------



## MMR

From the Deepwater Horizon Unified Command website: Media Access to Impacted Areas



> Media Access to Impacted Areas
> Can the media access any of the impacted areas?
> 
> Tonight CBS Evening News reported they were denied access to oiled shoreline by a civilian vessel that had clean-up workers contracted by BP, as well as Coast Guard personnel on board. CBS News video taped the exchange during which time one of the contractors told them (on tape) that " ... this is BP's rules not ours."
> 
> Neither BP nor the U.S. Coast Guard, who are responding to the spill, have any rules in place that would prohibit media access to impacted areas and we were disappointed to hear of this incident. In fact, media has been actively embedded and allowed to cover response efforts since this response began, with more than 400 embeds aboard boats and aircraft to date. Just today 16 members of the press observed clean-up operations on a vessel out of Venice, La.
> 
> The only time anyone would be asked to move from an area would be if there were safety concerns, or they were interfering with response operations. This did occur off South Pass Monday which may have caused the confusion reported by CBS today.
> 
> The entities involved in the Deepwater Horizon/BP Response have already reiterated these media access guidelines to personnel involved in the response and hope it prevents any future confusion.
> 
> Rob Wyman
> Lieutenant Commander, USCG
> Deepwater Horizon Unified Command
> Joint Information Center, Robert, LA


----------



## Ulladh

https://loon.audubon.org/payment/donate/OILSPILL10.html
Audubon Society for wildlife and habitat restoration.


----------



## KeelHaulin

k1vsk said:


> One last, probably futile try ---
> 
> the differential pressure to which I and other refer is that between the well head and the water column above it, nothing to do with the well pressure. I assume you confuse that point intentionally?
> 
> The so-called "science" and you ignores the fact the well head is under 5000 feet of water.


I'm not trying to confuse anything. It's a simple fact that when the oil exits the pipe; the pressure is equal. It does not matter if it is at the surface or 5000 feet down. The measured flow rate via video analysis DOES take into account the depth; because it is being measured at the source; get it? If the same flow rate from a pipe was shown at 100 feet depth it would look exactly the same. The water is no "thicker" down there than it is at any other depth in the ocean. The only difference is the static pressure of the water and oil (which again is equal); and those two fluids are incompressible and do not change in viscosity or flow properties. Do you have ANY background in fluids or physics?

I think a big reason we don't see a much bigger oil slick on the surface is because much of the oil is not making it up to the surface before it emulsifies and remains in the water column.



> Again, it is irrelevant as the volume released and the environmental impact of any spill are more often than not mutually exclusive things but that too I will presume you want to ignore.


How can the environmental impact NOT be a function of the spill volume? If the Valdez had spilled 1/10'th of the volume; the damage and lasting effects would not have been nearly so severe. Recently there was a much smaller bunker fuel spill (1000 gallons) on SF Bay and there were little to no effects; compared with the 48,000 gallon spill 2 years prior.

Environmental impact is DIRECTLY related to spill volume; how can anyone say otherwise? Oh yeah; the CEO of BP - who says that the spill (that they can't stop) will have very, very little environmental impact. In what timeframe? The entire history of the Earth (5 billion years)? *BS* - maybe that should be their new name.

If we don't know a good ballpark number of how much is spilled; how can one determine what how much cleanup is needed, what the long term effects are; and how much or how long BP should do the remediation work and/or cover the cost of fishing and economic losses? Is it fair for BP to get off the hook saying they cleaned 90% of a spill rather than 9%? What will happen if BP gets cut free in a few years and then giant blobs of goo start washing ashore 20 years from now (you know the stuff that was not quantified, accounted for or recovered)?

The Cosco Busan bunker fuel spill here on SF Bay was first listed as "less than 1000 gallons"; then it went to 10k, and when the fog lifted and everyone could see the slick that encircled Yerba Buena and Treasure Island; and was washing out the SF Gate; they finally published the total number of 48,000 gallons. While this may seem small by comparison; SF Bay is a much smaller body of water than the Gulf. Had the volume been correctly disclosed at the beginning; the widespread damage may have been prevented due to a more urgent response.

So who would you rather believe? The Government who is on the defensive for not acting quickly enough in the beginning, no oversight, and are taking flak for not letting the surface oil burn; BP who has a massive financial stake in this (remember Exxon; what happened to Exxon after the Valdez?); or a respected professor from Purdue who has his professional name and possibly his career on the line by pointing out that the flow velocity puts the daily volume closer to 70k BPD?



> The more you dismiss these realities, the less credibility your statements have so feel free to continue.


What realities? You have given no analytical proof that this spill is the smaller number. All you have said is that "it can't be" 70k/day. Explain with some numbers why (with some detailed analysis) so we can all know what the reason is for us to believe your theory.

Ever seen the old pictures of oil wells "gushing"; shooting oil a hundred feet in the air? Do you think the flow velocity was just a bit more than 1 MPH? Why is it so hard to understand that a 1 MPH flow velocity out of a 2foot diameter pipe (a very slow velocity) would result in 70k BPD? It's not a high velocity or pressure that is required; it's the large pipe diameter that results in such a huge net volume. If the BOP had not partially closed; I think the flow would be much, much higher until the gas pressure escapes the deposit. Hopefully they will get the well sealed before the BOP fails due to erosion (if there is truth in that theory).


----------



## w1651

*Tonight on ABC*

There was the Governor of Louisiana on a island that has oil on it. So the media if weren't involved before are now. Still it was not as bad as I expected but there is a lot more oil out there to come onshore.
Lets all say a little prayer so that we can get this situation resolved quickly.


----------



## k1vsk

Let me try this approach:



KeelHaulin said:


> It's a simple fact that when the oil exits the pipe; the pressure is equal.
> 
> If it were true, that would be equilibrium; there would be NO FLOW!
> Do you have ANY background in fluids or physics?
> 
> No, just a dumb chemical and environmental engineer with 30+ years experience.
> 
> How can the environmental impact NOT be a function of the spill volume?
> 
> Why reiterate the obvious? It is first and foremost a function of where and under what conditions the spill occurs, how long it persists, what species are potentially exposed, etc. the list goes on and a simple measure of volumer is largely irrelevant. I and others already described this...
> 
> If we don't know a good ballpark number of how much is spilled; how can one determine what how much cleanup is needed,
> 
> Because cleanup is measured in terms of efficacy, not volume.
> It's clean when it's gone no matter how much/little there is.
> 
> what the long term effects are;
> 
> Absolutely nothing to do with volume for reasons already described
> 
> and how much or how long BP should do the remediation work and/or cover the cost of fishing and economic losses?
> 
> the damage assessments will determine that, not spill volume
> 
> 
> Is it fair for BP to get off the hook saying they cleaned 90% of a spill rather than 9%?
> 
> Again,you want to fall into the simple mentality of wanting a number as the sole means of grasping significance. They will be required to continue until the OSC designates the area as clean.
> 
> 
> What realities? You have given no analytical proof that this spill is the smaller number. All you have said is that "it can't be" 70k/day. Explain with some numbers why (with some detailed analysis) so we can all know what the reason is for us to believe your theory.
> 
> Simply because wells don't produce at that flow rate. Someone who is a petroleum geologist already told you that!


----------



## Insails

here are two great links to follow the spill...
Seems many are saying with PHds from Purdue and other major universites that this spill may be as large as 11 times what the Exxon Valdez was...BP even admits they dont know how much is spilling now that many Universites and NOTED Scientest all say it is much larger flow than BP is reporting...

Here are the links to the stories...I will trust the PHd's over BP and anyone here who claims to be an expert....
They all say the greater the amount of oil the greater the enviromental impact.

New Orleans, LA Local News, Breaking News, Sports & Weather - NOLA.com
and
Alabama Local News, Breaking News, Sports & Weather - al.com


----------



## GraemeInCanada

Despite how much some on here do to defend the oil industry be rest assured they are doing their best to black out the media and stop all scientists but their own from doing any analysis of the situation. We are a month in and haven't had even one independent or even government based research team in there to determine exactly what is happening. The fox is guarding the hen house, and it's a big fox with a wide wide swath of power and influence. They are even going ahead and having commercials and pamphlets put out in other's names, like the governments of each state, to promote how good things are in the gulf.

The good thing about it all is that history will show the truth and it will just be one more black mark on big oil, not that they care.. when you have pockets as big as theirs.

Some would think there is the freedom for the press to do whatever they want, like get a helicopter and fly over, but you can probably be very confident that they've been "advised" not to get close or "promote mayhem".

One month, no real science proving how much is coming out.. doesn't that seem odd? Who has paid for the science up to this point as to how much is coming out and what effect it is having? Who has paid for the science to figure out what all those dispersants (don't be fooled by such a nice sounding word, it's a combination of gasoline, varsol, detergents) will actually do and the long term effects? Once you follow the money you'll see who is really running this show.


----------



## KeelHaulin

_ *Responses are in bold because I could not get rid of the italics...*

It's a simple fact that when the oil exits the pipe; the pressure is equal.

If it were true, that would be equilibrium; there would be NO FLOW!

*
No; that is incorrect. The fluid inside the WELL is at extremely high pressure; due to compressed methane gas. The fluid inside PIPE downsteream of the BOP has slightly higher pressure than the WATER. When it EXITS the pipe; the pressure is EQUAL.*

Do you have ANY background in fluids or physics?

No, just a dumb chemical and environmental engineer with 30+ years experience.

*UNFORTUNATELY; A Chem-E or Enviro-E degree does not mean you know ANYTHING about fluid dynamics. I doubled in Mechanical an Materials Engineering; and took 2 years of fluid dynamics. While those courses are just the basis for an entire sub-field of mechanical engineering; they give you enough to KNOW how fluids respond to pressure like at 5k feet deep and IF that is going to have any effect on the flow. In this case it DOES NOT because the pressure behind the BOP is much, much higher than the water pressure. The oil and gas that is leaking out (at high volume) is being forced through the BOP that did not fully close.*

How can the environmental impact NOT be a function of the spill volume?

Why reiterate the obvious? It is first and foremost a function of where and under what conditions the spill occurs, how long it persists, what species are potentially exposed, etc. the list goes on and a simple measure of volumer is largely irrelevant. I and others already described this...

*That's complete spin on the truth. First and foremost is what spilled; and what quantity. We are now looking at an oil slick that is visible from space; is not simply on the surface (is throughout the water column); and is headed out of the Gulf into the Atlantic. How f'in much oil can spill before people like you notice that quantity IS an issue? You don't think there would be more urgency placed on getting this thing stopped if they said to begin with that an Exxon Valdez would go into the Gulf every 3 days VS once every 30 days? Do you actually believe that the volume of 10 tankers spilled into the Gulf has little difference in effect than 1? I have family that has worked in the Environmental Cleanup and Remediation field for 20+ years; and it ALL comes down to how big the spill or waste volume is in terms of cost of remediation and long-term effects. Have you ever heard of a "super-fund" site? Does not the term itself imply: massive cleanup effort required due to the volume/extent of pollution?

The oil industry has been caught with their "pants on the ground". And yes; they are lookin like a fool. They did not have any way of dealing with this sort of problem; they did not even have enough fire boom on the ready to surround the initial spill; and their attempts to contain the spill have been a joke. The bottom line is that unless people KNOW the quantity (which is likely 10x greater than BP says); the truth will be kept secret so the industry will not be forced to make drastic changes to ensure this won't happen again. BP will go on spinning it this way for years unless the people who KNOW HOW TO QUANTIFY FLOW can prevail in the news. 
*

If we don't know a good ballpark number of how much is spilled; how can one determine what how much cleanup is needed,

Because cleanup is measured in terms of efficacy, not volume.
It's clean when it's gone no matter how much/little there is.

*Efficacy? How do you know how effective you were if you don't know how much there was to clean up; or where it went? If it's sitting on the bottom of the Gulf; is it considered "gone"? What about the cryptic ecosystems that are down there that likely feed upper water column species? What about the coral reefs in the Caribbean? Is it OK to wipe them out too so long as the beaches remain white/sandy for the sunbathers? No worry, only 5k BPD is spilling and it's a vast ocean (when really it's more like 70k BPD)...
*

What realities? You have given no analytical proof that this spill is the smaller number. All you have said is that "it can't be" 70k/day. Explain with some numbers why (with some detailed analysis) so we can all know what the reason is for us to believe your theory.

Simply because wells don't produce at that flow rate. Someone who is a petroleum geologist already told you that!

*Did you not see the wells that were burning in Kuwait after the Gulf War I? ALL OF THEM were spouting oil into the air at high velocity! WELLS THAT ARE PRESSURIZED WITH METHANE AND ARE "GUSHING" PRODUCE HIGH FLOW RATES! When you put a 24" diameter pipe down it does not take a rocket thrust flow velocity to produce massive flow volumes. The calculations PROVE this; it only needs a flow of 1 MPH to produce 70k BPD. By the looks of it; that number seems to be conservative.*
_


----------



## KeelHaulin

BP's estimate of volume of Gulf of Mexico oil leak is dramatically low, Purdue expert says | NOLA.com

In this article: BP told feds it could handle oil spill 60 times larger than Deepwater Horizon | al.com



> BP's Deepwater Horizon Initial Exploration Plan suggests that the well's unchecked flow would be 6.8 million gallons a day.


Guess what? That's 151,100 BPD. Twice the estimate of the video analysis.

In this article: Gulf of Mexico oil spill 2010: The worst-case scenario | al.com



> If the wellhead is lost, oil could leave the well at a much greater rate, perhaps up to 150,000 barrels -- or more than 6 million gallons per day -- based on government data showing daily production at another deepwater Gulf well. ...
> 
> "Typically, a very good well in the Gulf can produce 30,000 barrels a day, but that's _*under control*_. I have no idea what an uncontrolled release could be," said Stephen Sears, chairman of the petroleum engineering department at Louisiana State University.
> 
> Minerals Management Service data indicates that the deepwater Thunderhorse production platform, also owned by BP, _*has produced up to 150,000 barrels per day*_.


 Can we put an end to the IT CAN'T FLOW THAT MUCH ARGUMENT NOW??


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## Insails

THE BIG LIE.....
now BP say's it is captureing 210,000 gallons a day...wait!!! thats all they first said it was leaking...DUH!!!! so they told on theirself
Tube capturing 210,000 gallons of Gulf oil a day | al.com

Now how can anyone trust BP


----------



## remetau

I can't see how not having an accurate measurement on how much is coming out NOT important.

If you were standing behind a dam that is about to break, wouldn't you like to know how much water is going to be coming down on you?


----------



## w1651

*ya!*



remetau said:


> I can't see how not having an accurate measurement on how much is coming out NOT important.
> 
> If you were standing behind a dam that is about to break, wouldn't you like to know how much water is going to be coming down on you?


But I would want to get outta the way more.
Look at the bright side of this catastrophy guys! BP only has to pay 75,000,000. Such a Deal!!!


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## MMR

That liability cap is misunderstood. More here: http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/...-spills-contd/


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## w1651

So do you think BP would boggle this down in the court system for years before it saw the light of day? Didn't Exxon do that with the Valdes oil spill? I don't think Exxon ever did really pay a large amount on that spill.
Still good link and good to know. 

Thanks


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## Insails

Exxon did exactly that...kept it in court 
of the 2.5 billion doallar settlement Exxon only paid around 500 million
Burke & Eisner Law Blog » Exxon Valdez


----------



## TheRedPill

I saw onn CNN just a few minutes ago that the live feed cams of the damage and oil leakage has been made available to US experts. The EPA also halted BP's use of the toxic dispersants and want them to find a different one. CNN also reported several aspects of the cover up regarding the amount of oil actually being uke into the gulf.

No plan of action given or even strategies discussed for actually stopping the flow...of course

EPA tells BP to find new dispersant - CNN.com


----------



## remetau

TheRedPill said:


> I saw onn CNN just a few minutes ago that the live feed cams of the damage and oil leakage has been made available to US experts. The EPA also halted BP's use of the toxic dispersants and want them to find a different one. CNN also reported several aspects of the cover up regarding the amount of oil actually being uke into the gulf.
> 
> No plan of action given or even strategies discussed for actually stopping the flow...of course
> 
> EPA tells BP to find new dispersant - CNN.com


That just gets me. I don't understand why they were allowed to use this crap in the first place. So now after hundreds of thousands of gallons of this crap has been dumped into our gulf, they are now saying it is unsafe. Well, no ****, anything that they aren't willing to divulge what is in it is questionable at best. Give me a break! Let's fight one chemical pollutant with another that is probably even worse.

Kv1sk, don't even bother replying to this one, because I am tired of hearing your crap on "it really isn't that bad".


----------



## k1vsk

Lest facts get in the way:

"While EPA has not yet identified any significant effects on aquatic life, EPA today also directed BP to begin using, within 72 hours, a less toxic and more effective dispersant. EPA took this step because BP is using this dispersant in unprecedented volumes and, last week, began using it underwater at the source of the leak - a procedure that has never been tried before. Given the unprecedented use, EPA wants to ensure BP is using the least toxic approved product."

What you fail to understand is that dispersal prevents potentially far more significant damage to sensitive ecosystems such as mangroves, estuaries and other coastal areas not to mention the economic impact oil hitting beaches would have.

NOAA assessment teams reported today: "To-date, the toxicity data does not indicate any significant affects on aquatic life. Moreover, decreased size of the oil droplets is a good indication that, so far, the dispersant is effective"

I would have to agree with you on one of your points, that being when you stated "_I don't understand why they were allowed to use this crap in the first place_."


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## sailhog

K1,
I think NOW would be an appropriate moment for you to admit that Keelhaulin knows more about this subject than you. Be a true sailor and admit that you were wroooooooooooooooong.


----------



## KeelHaulin

BP has finally admitted that the spill volume is far larger than their original estimates. That's all that really matters; that the scientists that analyzed the flow rate and brought this to the public attention were accepted by BP.

Had they not come forward; we would still be under the false impression that this spill is 10x smaller than it is. It will remain to be seen what BP can do for remediation and how much economic re-payment they can make to the industries who will lose income. But, you can bet gasoline prices will be on the rise in the coming months...


----------



## Insails

How and why we were lied to by BP..here is an comment from this article 
Media Access to Impacted Areas
that just dont sit well:

In fact, media has been actively embedded and allowed to cover response efforts since this response began, with more than 400 embeds aboard boats and aircraft to date. Just today 16 members of the press observed clean-up operations on a vessel out of Venice, La.

embedded as they were in IRAQ only being allowed to report whats told to them........Dang sad huh...

there really is no free press and it's time there was//

How could any reporter hold their tongue knowing good and well that BP and all envolved were covering up how much oil was leaking???

these 400 reporters knew.......in fear of being sent home by the task force they only report what they are told they can report

Time to end this embed crap and have FREE PRESS or we will continue to be lied to ...That simple


----------



## Fstbttms

Excerpt from an e-mail my buddy (who is a hydro-geologist) sent me last night-

_"BP has one option IMHO. A hail Mary 'junk shot' into the well to jam up the BOP, and then concrete. Concrete is really what you jam a well up with, and the weight of the concrete in the downpipe to the well holds back the oil. I talked to some oil patch guys about this. Nobody has any high hopes. My SWAG? They will never plug this well under current flow conditions, never. They are going to have to wait years before pressure drops off enough to plug it (yes, years). This is one of the deepest oil wells ever drilled, in one of the most over-pressurized oil formations in the world, where the device of "last resort", failed. Nobody has ever plugged a broken well this deep, this big, with this much pressure ever before. Ever <O</O_
_<O_
_Hear the estimate last night? Its flowing at 70,000 to 90,000 bbl/day. That's an Exxon Valdez every 3 days. The spill started 25 days ago. The Valdez spill was 20 years ago and if you turn a rock, you find oil. Mankind has never dealt with a chemical disaster of this magnitude ever. It was easier to clean up Hiroshima._
_Kiss off the biota of Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic coast of the US for decades. The methane alone is going to kill all the sea life in the gulf by taking all the oxygen. Worst possible case? The biological damage cause a food chain collapse that runs up to the highest trophic levels. No plankton, no oxygen, no us. The Earth will recover from yet another mass extinction. Best possible case? Miami and all it's Cuban expats burn to the ground (here's hoping!). Srsly, best possible case, when you are 90 years old you will be able to get a shrimp po'boy in the south again."_
<O


----------



## Insails

This is building to be the worlds largest disaster in history....
Most all the estimates on the oil were based on the big lie of 5000 barrells a day...If we ever needed true investigative reporters who are not afraid of the "Powers That Be"....now is the time


there are plenty of Charter boats that can take reporters,they sure can't fish....


----------



## RAGNAR

I want to know when the specific politicians and regulators that made drilling this far out and this deeply necessary, are going to "pay". At some point, this sort of government disfunction has to rise to gross negligence.


----------



## w1651

Why does this shock or surprise anybody? The press core in America hasn't reported the news truthfully for years now. (see previous post) Now they are ticked off that they look bad to the public they are supposed to care about so much. 
The fact is all they have to do is report the facts and let me make up my own mind. And if that doesn't get you invited to the white house dinners or the gets you kicked out of the white house press core their boss should give them a bonus and report it on the news. Maybe then they would start asking the tough questions.
FACT
During the Bush/Kary debates 
The two candidates would not appear unless the questions asked were from the candidates perspective camps. Is that the prisoner in charge of the prison or what? The press should have told them both go pound sand but they didn't. So the press has no reason or excuse to be considered as
credible at all. I take everything they report with a grain of salt. They are useless.
Completely Fricken Useless!!!!


----------



## Stillraining

Seems to me *this* oil belonging to the American people, its BP who should be paying you all for cheaper gas not the other way around.

I agree this will be the worst disaster man has ever inflicted on the environment...It should Bankrupt BP or nearly so anyway...There is no way American citizens should foot the bill for this.

I own a business as well...my actions determine rather I stay viable, make a profit, loose money and turn belly up or GO TO JAIL...BP should be no different.

As an oil field veteran (Land based)..I am *stunned* at the lack of back-up plans for this type of offshore eventuality.


----------



## cormeum

IMHO they need to pinch off the flow with shaped charges from the side (the sedimentary base of the Gulf should be able to be plastically deformed), then cap. Trying to put a cap on that much flow was pretty much doomed to failure.

Point being there's too much sitting around and doing nothing. 
They should have had a whole series of contingency plans for something like this.


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## Insails

with the exxon valdiz pumping out every 3 days ......It has to be stopped no matter how they do it....Also 20 times more natural gas is leaking than oil which will kill the oxygen level in the Gulf as it mixes in(worlds largest fish kill)...All life in the gulf is at peril....


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## Insails

Next stop...Key West then through the Florida Straits and up the Atlantic Seaboard VIA the Gulf Stream...

All Aboard!!!

here it comes:http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/book_shelf/2036_SOMF72-2010-05-20-1900.pdf


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## remetau

Okay. So now even BP admits that this is bigger than first thought. We should be doing everything, and I mean freaking everything to contain this. This isn’t just BP’s problem, the CG's problem, or even a US problem. The US should be calling every damn ship they own into the gulf to lay containment booms. Other countries should be sending us all of their booms and offering assistance, because this is not a US problem. If this kills off too large an amount of plankton and shrimp, then I guarantee it that this will be felt around the world.


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## w1651

I wondered about setting charges a while back. I am by no means a demolition expert though so I cannot tell you how feasible it is to do. But it seems to me that if you go down below the sediment line about 200 feet this could be accomplished. like I said though I am not a demolitions expert. 

OH Look! The press is angry they were lied to. Who duh thunk that!


----------



## w1651

Remetau is right
Where has the government been on this catastrophy? This should have been handled a long time ago. Where are the navy traulers and exploration rigs and ships? Why aren't they out there? 
When Katrina went through New Orleans Bush got hammered about the response time. Where are the same people about this little catastrophy. I guess the worlds largest oil spill with the possibility of extinguishing a lot of marine life in the gulf doesn't compare when a the politician they elected is in the White House. 
Hey! Mr President ! Are you done apologizing to the Mexicans for immigration restrictions in Arizona YET?
Can we get you to pick up the pace or do you hate SOUTHERN FISHERMAN?


----------



## Insails

How can you allow a criminal to police himself???


BP lied and so did the Joint Task Force...they all knew more oil was gushing out than reported...

This really stinks!!!

Having BP in charge is like having The Fox in charge of the Hen house...


----------



## sailhog

I don't understand you guys who think the U.S. government is the responsible party in all of this. Were you really surprised to learn that the government didn't have a fleet of ROVs capable of operating a mile below sea level that could cap oil wells? Before this tragedy, wouldn't you have argued that the business of oil should be left to the oil business? After all, aren't you all for minimal government and unfettered markets?

The oil industry has worked hard to get the government off its back. It has constantly lobbied to avoid regulation, to keep government out of its business... and then something like this happens and now you guys claim it's not the fault of the oil company but the fault of the government the oil companies have fought to neuter? If anyone other than the oil companies are to blame, it's the whole deregulation crowd and the political forces that have seen fit to strictly limit government regulation where it's needed.

You guys don't want to admit it, but deep down you really don't think the Sierra Club is to blame for this tragedy. Go ahead and make the argument, but nobody's buying it.


----------



## remetau

What I say is who cares about blame right now. Let’s do everything that can be done to minimize the damage. BP, big oil, the federal government, state governments, foreign governments, merchant seaman, fisherman, etc, should be doing everything that can be done. I don’t understand why the spread of the oil continues to get larger when we have thousands and thousands of ships available to help contain it.


----------



## sailhog

Remetau,
I think the problem with containment has to do with most of the oil being subsurface.

That's a nice boat, by the way. Looks like you guys are having some fun down in the keys. Thoughts will be with you all in the event the oil comes your way... I'm up in the panhandle.


----------



## remetau

sailhog said:


> Remetau,
> I think the problem with containment has to do with most of the oil being subsurface.
> 
> That's a nice boat, by the way. Looks like you guys are having some fun down in the keys. Thoughts will be with you all in the event the oil comes your way... I'm up in the panhandle.


Thank you sailhog, and I wish you the best up there.


----------



## soulfinger

Let's clear a few things up here:

This well is not flowing at 100,000 barrels per day, as is being reported in the media. No well on earth has ever flowed at that rate. Your information from the Thunderhorse platform is for the whole platform (many wells), not an individual well. Thunderhorse wells individually peaked at around 30,000 barrels per day.

This is not the worst oil spill ever (at least not yet). It's not even close. It's probably bigger than Valdez at this point, but Valdez isn't even close to the top ten.

Now this one was bad, and makes Valdez look like a picnic:

Ixtoc I oil spill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is not the most highly pressured reservoir in the world, not even close. I think they were drilling at ~14 PPG. There are 18+ ppg reservoirs out there.


----------



## sailhog

soulfinger said:


> Let's clear a few things up here:
> 
> This well is not flowing at 100,000 barrels per day, as is being reported in the media. No well on earth has ever flowed at that rate. Your information from the Thunderhorse platform is for the whole platform (many wells), not an individual well. Thunderhorse wells individually peaked at around 30,000 barrels per day.
> 
> This is not the worst oil spill ever (at least not yet). It's not even close. It's probably bigger than Valdez at this point, but Valdez isn't even close to the top ten.
> 
> Now this one was bad, and makes Valdez look like a picnic:
> 
> Ixtoc I oil spill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> This is not the most highly pressured reservoir in the world, not even close. I think they were drilling at ~14 PPG. There are 18+ ppg reservoirs out there.


Then plugging that well shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## Insails

Here is you top ten list of oil spills..
World's top ten oil spills measured in gallons - Environment - MiamiHerald.com


----------



## Stillraining

FWIW...I want to go on record as one that has been for government control over our oil for 30 years...it belongs to the American people not oil companies.

The now year old boondoggle involving the shenanigans on wall street buying up oil reserves and pushing the price per barrel over 140.00 is a prime example.

A national security product such as oil should not be publicly traded or non-government controlled.

This comming from a pro small government, stand on your own two feet , quit asking for a hand out, get off the public tit you worthless slacker, give the boot to half the welfare crowd Republican.


----------



## sailguy40

Its getting bad down here in Louisiana. Today was some breaking news, Grand Isle Beaches are now closed to the public. I was at the Grand Isle State Park just last summer kayaking and it was beautiful. There were pelicans, dolphins, birds everywhere, it was full of life! I guess its all full of tar balls and dead marine life and birds now. Looks like me and my sailboat and kayaks are stuck in Lake Ponchartrain. I am starting to make plans to possibly move to the west coast now. I have been living in the New Orleans area all my life, now is the first time I truely want to leave. I don't even think the atlantic coast is safe from this either. Next thing you know, the oil will make its way around south florida and up north along the east coast. So I just don't think the east coast is safe either. There is a reason people live here in Louisiana, that reason is beginning to vanish each and every day the oil continues to flow into the gulf. 

Oh and BP, you fools will pay for my relocation costs since you felt it was necessary to continue operations knowning a possible dangerous situation could arise. Not to mention they don't even have a clue what to do to stop the oil yet they were continuing operations with possible safety issues. Heck they have found issues with their other oil rig the atlantis which is 100 miles out further then the deepwater horizon was. Thats like a pilot who is flying an airliner with 150 passengers onboard and when a problem arises he has no clue how to respond to it. He has no business flying the plane if he has no clue how to respond to an unexpected situation. BP had no business operating a rig there if they were clueless how to react if there was an accident. Part of the government's fault too for allowing them to drill without proper safety regulations in place. I am going to send BP another hate email to add to their collection of millions they already have. They have ruined my state's coasts and community. This is getting out of hand, period. Oh and all you fishermen down here, I feel for you big time its your livelyhood at stake here.


----------



## fjon

Insails said:


> Here is you top ten list of oil spills..
> World's top ten oil spills measured in gallons - Environment - MiamiHerald.com


Well, let's see. 60k barrels a day is 2.52 million gallons x 23 days is about 60 million gallons. That puts this one at #8 and rising fast, so far. I can see how industry employees can become inured to the deep concern of those who haven't followed the many disasters in oil drilling. However, the damage is cummulative and wtf knows where the line of no return is located? Mud decisions and problems seem to be a repeating pattern. Halliburtin, Cheney, secret energy policy meetings 10 years back. It's time to run society for the people instead of the big business interests. Don't you think?


----------



## KeelHaulin

I'm quoting the wikipedia on Thunder Horse:



> In March 2009, Thunder Horse produced over 300 thousand barrels of oil equivalent per day from seven wells


So that averages to 42k PBD from each well; assuming all were in peak operation. This is under controlled flow; not un-restricted flow. Again; the flow estimates by Steve Wereley were suggesting 50,000 BPD minimum. While I don't know if he considers volume of methane in his calculations; the flow rate of "stuff" exiting the pipe was estimated to be between 50k and 100k BPD (I know you cant measure gas volume as a liquid volume).



soulfinger said:


> This is not the most highly pressured reservoir in the world, not even close. I think they were drilling at ~14 PPG. There are 18+ ppg reservoirs out there.


Here is another excerpt from the wikipedia article:


wikipedia said:


> Actually developing the field was a major technological challenge due to the depth of the find. Not only are the distances large, but at such depths the formations holding the hydrocarbons create pressures over 1,200 bars (120 MPa) and temperatures of 135 °C (275 °F). Prior to Thunder Horse, no field had ever been developed at such a depth.


1,200 Bars is about 1,050 Bar higher pressure than the water is at 5000 feet. So you've got 1000x atmospheric pressure acting on whatever flow restrictions are in the well head and the damaged pipe. With that much pressure I don't see how it's not possible for the flow to be as high as 50-100k BPD; unless the drill is restricting flow since it is still in the pipe (or some other technical reason I am unaware of).


----------



## w1651

The fact is now the governor of Louisiana has to make islands to buffer the oil because he is tired of waiting on the federal government to step in and help. 
Once again the state has to go ahead with everything because the government is so severely broken that it is impossible to get anything done. 
I think Florida needs to take a hard look at Arizona and Louisiana and start a process for a strong response to this spill. But good luck getting Charlie Christ to do anything but pose for pics while on the campaign trail.


----------



## therapy23

soulfinger said:


> Ixtoc I oil spill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





> Mexico rejected US requests to be compensated for cleanup costs.


Dang!


----------



## therapy23

Stillraining said:


> FWIW...I want to go on record as one that has been for government control over our oil for 30 years...*it belongs to the American people not oil companies.*
> The now year old boondoggle involving the shenanigans on wall street buying up oil reserves and pushing the price per barrel over 140.00 is a prime example.
> 
> *A national security product such as oil should not be publicly traded or non-government controlled.*
> 
> This comming from a pro small government, stand on your own two feet , quit asking for a hand out, get off the public tit you worthless slacker, give the boot to half the welfare crowd Republican.


Then we would have to add coal. Next would have to be every other mineral.
Aye, comrade, it all belongs to the people....................
I will help you watch over it..................


----------



## sailhog

sailguy40 said:


> Its getting bad down here in Louisiana. Today was some breaking news, Grand Isle Beaches are now closed to the public. I was at the Grand Isle State Park just last summer kayaking and it was beautiful. There were pelicans, dolphins, birds everywhere, it was full of life! I guess its all full of tar balls and dead marine life and birds now. Looks like me and my sailboat and kayaks are stuck in Lake Ponchartrain. I am starting to make plans to possibly move to the west coast now. I have been living in the New Orleans area all my life, now is the first time I truely want to leave. I don't even think the atlantic coast is safe from this either. Next thing you know, the oil will make its way around south florida and up north along the east coast. So I just don't think the east coast is safe either. There is a reason people live here in Louisiana, that reason is beginning to vanish each and every day the oil continues to flow into the gulf.
> 
> Oh and BP, you fools will pay for my relocation costs since you felt it was necessary to continue operations knowning a possible dangerous situation could arise. Not to mention they don't even have a clue what to do to stop the oil yet they were continuing operations with possible safety issues. Heck they have found issues with their other oil rig the atlantis which is 100 miles out further then the deepwater horizon was. Thats like a pilot who is flying an airliner with 150 passengers onboard and when a problem arises he has no clue how to respond to it. He has no business flying the plane if he has no clue how to respond to an unexpected situation. BP had no business operating a rig there if they were clueless how to react if there was an accident. Part of the government's fault too for allowing them to drill without proper safety regulations in place. I am going to send BP another hate email to add to their collection of millions they already have. They have ruined my state's coasts and community. This is getting out of hand, period. Oh and all you fishermen down here, I feel for you big time its your livelyhood at stake here.


Oh, Sailguy... Captain, I feel for you... There's a phone number listed on the Deepwater HOrizon Response site for claims. I've heard that they tell you to leave your contact information, and go on to say that someone will be getting back to you in 48 hours. No one's getting the call back.

People here on the panhandle are utterly devastated. The phones for bookings have completely stopped, and it's just the beginning of the vacation season. The folks here are COMPLETELY screwed. Our neighbors put their house on the market three weeks ago. They had one showing, and then this happened. They both lost their jobs because they both work for vacation rental companies... so they are going to lose their home as well.

I never understood why terrorists do what they do. Now I understand.


----------



## Insails

jobs lost,homes lost,tourism lost, the gulf lost,lives lost...yet BP delays top kill until tuesday just so they can siphon off more oil from that 6 inch hose they put in the pipe........They should have capped this thing 3 weeks ago..Very first thing they did after deep water sank was bring in tankers to siphon more oil for profit before they did anything else....

HOW LONG DO WE LEAVE THE FOX IN CHARGE OF THE HEN HOUSE????

The longer BP has a role the longer they will delay to siphon more oil...
Time they left their wallet open and allowed someone else to take over
they have done enough over greed...we wont this leak stopped and they only care for their oil not our Gulf..........BP get out and leave your money


----------



## KeelHaulin

Don't worry; when that rig went to the bottom they lost a 3 billion dollar investment. I don't think they will recover the value of that rig no matter how much oil they siphon off.

I think they figure if they don't get the "Top Kill" right they will be in trouble for getting this well sealed. A couple of days more in preparation will not make much difference since it has been 30 days now since the spill began.


----------



## Insails

BP is not worried about the rig....
why? 
Transocean has already recieved payments

Gulf rig owner gets $401 million in insurance payments | Deepwater Horizon | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

meanwhile places on the coast wait..........

the link is not working right...It will work if you click on just the word gulf


----------



## lancelot9898

While the first priority is to stop the leak there is another important consideration that I don't see much being done. What caused this leak?? The reason why this is just as important as stopping this leak is the potential for other rigs failing. And what are other countries that are in the Gulf doing with their rigs?? Do we the US have any input as to who or how they drill?? Seems like where the feds should become totally involved there is lack of initiative(both in stopping the leak and finding the root cause for the problem) and the blame game is continuing! Not a good situation!


----------



## KeelHaulin

From what I understand; when the drilling rig struck the oil deposit it had what is known as a "blow-out". I'm guessing that's like a massive gusher. The methane gas that erupted out of the well caused an explosion and fire on the rig.

When the rig sank (due to all the water they were spraying on it); the drill pipe was fractured above the "Blow-Out-Preventer". The BOP did not close properly and the oil continued to flow out of the now broken pipe. The BOP is designed to pinch the riser pipe shut in an emergency; specifically if the rig was detached from the BOP (if the rig was washed away in a storm). It is not known why the BOP did not pinch the pipe shut. In attempts to close the BOP via splicing into the electrical system after the rig sank; hydraulic rams still did not function.

I'm sure there is some federal oversight; but the government does not have the expertise in this field to do any more than BP is doing to stop the leak. I'm sure they have the top engineering people in the industry working on this problem.

I'm sure there will be a lengthy investigation into why the rig exploded and why the BOP did not close after they get the well head plugged and the oil flow stopped. In areas where the USA holds mineral rights; the permitting and safety protocols are signed off on by the Federal Government. BP made claims that they could contain/control 150k BPD spill rate should this occur in their safety plan; but obviously they had no real capability at the ready to deal with such a disaster.


----------



## KeelHaulin

Insails said:


> BP is not worried about the rig....
> why?
> Transocean has already recieved payments
> 
> Gulf rig owner gets $401 million in insurance payments | Deepwater Horizon | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle


401 Million is a far cry from 3 billion, plus costs for drilling, installing the BOP, and the associated cleanup efforts. If that is all they are insured for I still think they are losing to lose a massive amount of money on this (until they can re-drill the well). The oil field is estimated to have 1 billion barrels of oil in it; which at $100 per barrel means they will recover a minimum of 100 billion in crude (before retail).


----------



## w1651

KeelHaulin said:


> 401 Million is a far cry from 3 billion, plus costs for drilling, installing the BOP, and the associated cleanup efforts. If that is all they are insured for I still think they are losing to lose a massive amount of money on this (until they can re-drill the well). The oil field is estimated to have 1 billion barrels of oil in it; which at $100 per barrel means they will recover a minimum of 100 billion in crude (before retail).


Ya Know What! I Don't Care How Much This Costs BP.

STOP THE FRICKEN LEAK!!!! 
Exxon, Conoco, BP, all made Billions last quarter. Not Millions BILLIONS.
We are not talking a couple of days here. This has been a month of BP NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM. Sure plug the line, Fill it with cement, throw the dam kitchen sink at it. BUT GET IT DONE! 
When Bush didn't respond in New Orleans he was a racist. So Okay I will Say it. OBAMA HATES FISH, AND OYSTERS, AND FISHERMEN!!


----------



## Stillraining

w1651 said:


> Ya Know What! I Don't Care How Much This Costs BP.
> 
> STOP THE FRICKEN LEAK!!!!
> Exxon, Conoco, BP, all made Billions last quarter. Not Millions BILLIONS.
> We are not talking a couple of days here. This has been a month of BP NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM. Sure plug the line, Fill it with cement, throw the dam kitchen sink at it. BUT GET IT DONE!
> When Bush didn't respond in New Orleans he was a racist. So Okay I will Say it. OBAMA *HATES FISH, AND OYSTERS, AND FISHERMEN*!!


I would say America....his wife basicly even said she did.


----------



## Yamsailor

All I can say is the private sector caused this mess. Let the private sector clean it up.


----------



## Insails

want the truth?
here is how most of us on the Gulf Coast feel...

http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f8/1520929307


----------



## Yamsailor

The energy sector is not at the beck and call of regulators. It is the other way around. They pay the senators and congressman to get out the way. The voters often voted for govt to get out of the way until very recently So the govt agencies did get out of the way. Theory being the private sector can do it better. Well I agree. The private sector made the mess, so I am sure they are a lot more capable than the govt to clean it up. Let the govt keep out--it will only cause more problems. On this one you can;t blame the govt as long as they stay out of the way.


----------



## Insails

The government has been envolved since the begaining of this spill...In fact way before the spill with regulations...They can't back out now to save face, they are neck deep in this mess


----------



## Yamsailor

Insails said:


> The government has been envolved since the begaining of this spill...In fact way before the spill with regulations...They can't back out now to save face, they are neck deep in this mess


The regulations were put in place over 20 years ago. The govt should back out. They will do more harm than good. I believe the majority of the people in this forum have consistently expressed opinions that govt gets in the way of the private sector, reduces efficiency, prevents the private sector from achieving results, and puts undue financial costs on the citizens of this country. Well, majority wins in a democracy. Let the private sector handle it. I am sure they will do a fantastic job in the long run. Long run being defined as greater than 30 years. The last thing we need is more govt regulations, more federal work force, the USA can't afford it's bills now and I am sure the public does not want their taxes to be raised to pay for more regulations and a bigger govt---the private sector can handle it.


----------



## remetau

The government gave the approval to drill; therefore they are just as much to blame as BP. Bring in the damn Navy ships and get them sucking up oil!


----------



## seafrontiersman

Two things surprise me about this mess:

1. I've been in charge of three vessels which went on charter to BP and their 
inspectors were always VERY strict as per safety and environmental issues.

2. No one is villifying Transocean, the guys who own and largely man the rig.
Many of the workers are contractors (Halliburton, Roclan, Dyna, etc) who
are contracted on a temporary basis to do a specific task such as fishing, 
directional drilling, etc. and no one seems to pay any attention to them.

I wonder why?

How is this George Bush's fault again?


----------



## Yamsailor

seafrontiersman said:


> Two things surprise me about this mess:
> 
> 1. I've been in charge of three vessels which went on charter to BP and their
> inspectors were always VERY strict as per safety and environmental issues.
> 
> 2. No one is villifying Transocean, the guys who own and largely man the rig.
> Many of the workers are contractors (Halliburton, Roclan, Dyna, etc) who
> are contracted on a temporary basis to do a specific task such as fishing,
> directional drilling, etc. and no one seems to pay any attention to them.
> 
> I wonder why?
> 
> How is this George Bush's fault again?


..or for that matter why is the fault of any govt official? answer--it's not.


----------



## Yamsailor

remetau said:


> The government gave the approval to drill; therefore they are just as much to blame as BP. Bring in the damn Navy ships and get them sucking up oil!


OF course the govt gave the permit to drill. They also gave the permits to shrimp, and to oyster, and to catch tuna, etc. etc.,


----------



## Insails

So let me get this straight, you want the goverment to pull out so you wont have to pay for it in increased taxes....which means the private sector just like with the Exxon Valdiz will delay,delay,and delay for 20 or so years in court while we here geting slimed by this mess on the Gulf coast pays for it...


that says it all


----------



## Yamsailor

Insails said:


> So let me get this straight, you want the goverment to pull out so you wont have to pay for it in increased taxes....which means the private sector just like with the Exxon Valdiz will delay,delay,and delay for 20 or so years in court while we here geting slimed by this mess on the Gulf coast pays for it...
> 
> that says it all


You all in the Gulf Coast should sue BP, Haliburton, and Transocean. I think the majority of the people in this forum think the govt doesn't work and gets in the way. Am I wrong?


----------



## Insails

and when we sue them and your fuel oil price to stay warm goes up to where you have to move down south and smell this crude to stay warm or go broke...what then??


----------



## w1651

remetau said:


> The government gave the approval to drill; therefore they are just as much to blame as BP. Bring in the damn Navy ships and get them sucking up oil!


Amen Brother Amen. Bring in the tankers sucking it up too.


----------



## Yamsailor

Insails said:


> and when we sue them and your fuel oil price to stay warm goes up to where you have to move down south and smell this crude to stay warm or go broke...what then??


At least we will be paying for the fuel and not taxes to the govt. That is a free market. If prices goes up--so be it. At least you can't blame the govt. As lot of conservatives like to state "we are an ownership society". The govt can not own our society. We do.


----------



## Insails

If we just let oil companies run wild without regulation there will be more spills,maybe even on your sailing grounds..Do you want that???
We have already seen what happens without regulation ....why do I say that because of the bribes and pay-offs to the MMS Minerals Management Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This spill happened because the regulators screwed up and took bribes...

now imagine what the oil companies would do with NO rules


----------



## Yamsailor

Insails said:


> If we just let oil companies run wild without regulation there will be more spills,maybe even on your sailing grounds..Do you want that???
> We have already seen what happens without regulation ....why do I say that because of the bribes and pay-offs to the MMS Minerals Management Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> This spill happened because the regulators screwed up and took bribes...
> 
> now imagine what the oil companies would do with NO rules


Exactly, keep the regulators out of it. At least it won't cost the taxpayer a dime. The private sector will have to clean it up. Sue Baby Sue!!!!


----------



## Insails

sue baby sue...yea right tell Alaska that..20 years later they got screwed of the nearly 3.5 billion dallar law suite the subreme court ruled Exxon to only pay 500 million...which means people that lost it all only got 15k for 20 years of their life....

you are only worried about your taxes....
amazing with the loss of life in the Gulf of Mexico that only money matters...
that sounds just like the BP execs

The Gulf Coast with seafood and tourism is almost 1/6th of the WORLDS economy
there is not one buisness going that can pay that bill..

thats reality


----------



## remetau

Okay Yam, what good does it do you to sue when your food source is gone? You can't eat money.

If we let oil companies have free reign, then the gulf would be covered in wells and leaks would be way more frequent. I'm personally against all offshore drilling.


----------



## Yamsailor

Insails said:


> sue baby sue...yea right tell Alaska that..20 years later they got screwed of the nearly 3.5 billion dallar law suite the subreme court ruled Exxon to only pay 500 million...which means people that lost it all only got 15k for 20 years of their life....
> 
> you are only worried about your taxes....
> amazing with the loss of life in the Gulf of Mexico that only money matters...
> that sounds just like the BP execs


If you do not like the Supreme Court decisions, then elect a President whom will appoint the judges, whom you would like to see, to the bench.


----------



## Insails

why does this spill have to be left Vs right...both appointed the judges and both screwed up...one party is no better than the other in this matter

niether can blame the other...

get ready to pay out your A$$ for this spill one way or the other...

we are paying much more than you...we are losing our way of life...what are you losing a few tax dollars???? amazing


----------



## Yamsailor

remetau said:


> Okay Yam, what good does it do you to sue when your food source is gone? You can't eat money.
> 
> If we let oil companies have free reign, then the gulf would be covered in wells and leaks would be way more frequent. I'm personally against all offshore drilling.


Hey--this was the peoples will until a couple of years ago. The people voted for politicians to get govt out of the way. This changed 3 years ago. If the people want more govt regulations, then they should vote for politicians who will give them more regulation. I think most americans want govt out of their way--November will tell.


----------



## ericread

Yamsailor said:


> The regulations were put in place over 20 years ago. The govt should back out. They will do more harm than good. I believe the majority of the people in this forum have consistently expressed opinions that govt gets in the way of the private sector, reduces efficiency, prevents the private sector from achieving results, and puts undue financial costs on the citizens of this country. Well, majority wins in a democracy. Let the private sector handle it. I am sure they will do a fantastic job in the long run. Long run being defined as greater than 30 years. The last thing we need is more govt regulations, more federal work force, the USA can't afford it's bills now and I am sure the public does not want their taxes to be raised to pay for more regulations and a bigger govt---the private sector can handle it.


I'm not sure I understand this argument. I keep hearing about how the free market is more responsible and efficient than government. In support of that, the US has relaxed regulations and de-funded regulatory agencies to the point where industry runs the oversight. Now that the industry has had a spectacular failure, there are more and more calls for government intervention.

At what point do we finally realize that what's best for big business isn't necessarily good for the people. Or does everybody here agree that "poop happens", and that even less regulation will magically make everything better?

BP has a history of placing profits over safety. Just look at the internal "Three Pigs" memo that BP used to justify the cost savings of cheap refinery office space over the cost of potential loss of human life.

Is now the time to relax industry regulation even more?

Twine is cheaper than standard rigging, so is it better to rig with twine? It sounds pretty stupid to me. But using a BP cost/benefit document, it would seem that if it were up to BP, we would all be sailing with twine.....


----------



## Insails

so the only thing both parties care about this spill is to point fingers and make politcal points for November....


Thats the lowest form of humanity ever shown ....

screw the ocean, the fish the 11 that died...its all about the vote baby!

speaks volumes about those that would gamble our lives on the Gulf Coast to push a political agenda


----------



## w1651

Yamsailor said:


> At least we will be paying for the fuel and not taxes to the govt. That is a free market. If prices goes up--so be it. At least you can't blame the govt. As lot of conservatives like to state "we are an ownership society". The govt can not own our society. We do.


With your ideas then there should be no building codes, no bank regulaters, no SEC no ICE or border patrol. Anarchy! Cool!!!


----------



## Yamsailor

Insails said:


> so the only thing both parties care about this spill is to point fingers and make politcal points for November....
> 
> Thats the lowest form of humanity ever shown ....
> 
> screw the ocean, the fish the 11 that died...its all about the vote baby!
> 
> speaks volumes about those that would gamble our lives on the Gulf Coast to push a political agenda


Exactly--keep govt out.


----------



## Yamsailor

OK--guys. By now I hope you have all realized I do not believe ANYTHING I have written today. For those of you who have seen me write on others posts, especially the ones about health care, you will realize I am making fun of all the neocon nut heads who believe the private sector and totally free markets can do and fix anything.

I was a doing a "Howard Stern" schtick. 

The whole point of my ranting and raving was to highlight, even for some known anti-govt contributors in these forums, just how stupid they really sound.

:batter


----------



## Insails

w1651 said:


> With your ideas then there should be no building codes, no bank regulaters, no SEC no ICE or border patrol. Anarchy! Cool!!!


and no gulf ,atlantic or pacific beaches...just tar pits and oil wells

anyone have an Idea how much more sail area we would need to sail in dark gooey,stickey,latex paint type oil???


----------



## Insails

They are trying "top Kill" as we speak..here is the link to a live feed
CNN.com Live


----------



## therapy23

Nice that the feed is and hour delayed so if anything comes up that they don't want you to see they have time to add "snow".


----------



## Insails

therapy23 said:


> Nice that the feed is and hour delayed so if anything comes up that they don't want you to see they have time to add "snow".


I see that!...I put nothing past BP after seeing and reading of their antics and remarks....


----------



## remetau

How did you figure it was an hour old? The video I see shows 14:40 central time at 15:40 eastern time which is correct.


----------



## nolatom

I care little about all the out-of-state punditry.

What I do hope is that the top-kill procedure works. We desperately need a break on this thing, at long last..


----------



## FormerAdministrator

I rarely post but IMHO this disaster is to Barack Obama what Katrina was to George W. The current administration is asleep at the helm.

Why isn't the United Sates Navy on the scene?

Allowing BP to run the cleanup and control the flow of information is like letting a murderer run their own murder investigation.

Lunacy!


----------



## w1651

Insails said:


> and no gulf ,atlantic or pacific beaches...just tar pits and oil wells
> 
> anyone have an Idea how much more sail area we would need to sail in dark gooey,stickey,latex paint type oil???


Less sail area. Probably a storm sail situation due to global cooling making stronger wind gusts. all the heat in oceans will go to the atmosphere warming it up then creating bigger pressure differentials between land and see. 
Sailing will be like riding a surf board..


----------



## Insails

administrator said:


> I rarely post but IMHO this disaster is to Barack Obama what Katrina was to George W. The current administration is asleep at the helm.
> 
> Why isn't the United Sates Navy on the scene?
> 
> Allowing BP to run the cleanup and control the flow of information is like letting a murderer run their own murder investigation.
> 
> Lunacy!


That is the question we have been asking since day 1 here on the gulf coast..

amazing thing is the Coast Guard falls under the department of homeland security....yet all they seem to be used for is to keep the press away from what is happening out there....

Imagine that a forign privately owned oil Company in charge of our homeland securities military arm......

Lunacy...you bet!...question is How can this happen??


----------



## w1651

Insails said:


> That is the question we have been asking since day 1 here on the gulf coast..
> 
> amazing thing is the Coast Guard falls under the department of homeland security....yet all they seem to be used for is to keep the press away from what is happening out there....
> 
> Imagine that a forign privately owned oil Company in charge of our homeland securities military arm......
> 
> Lunacy...you bet!...question is How can this happen??


HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN?

Just sit back and enjoy the ride. It's about to get a lot more interesting. Did they close the leak yet? I can't see with the live feed.

I said it before Obama is a racist. He hates Americans!


----------



## Insails

My question is where is the world famous Red Adair ???


----------



## glassdad

You ask "Where is the Navy?" The Navy specializes in blowing things up. They do not have have the know how or the equipment. The military can do lots of things but they are not set up for specialized oil drilling and capping of leaks. BP or other oil companies are or should be. If they are not, they should be prohibited from drilling. BP must pay for ALL the cleanup expenses and must pay to reimburse everyone in the affected area for their economic losses.


----------



## Stillraining

Insails said:


> My question is where is the world famous Red Adair ???


They have been involved already....Their expertise is oil well fires on land however not undersea pipe leaks.


----------



## bubb2

Red Adair died in 2004. His company changed hands a few time and is now owned by Halliburton.


----------



## Insails

bubb2 said:


> Red Adair died in 2004. His company changed hands a few time and is now owned by Halliburton.


Thanks......wow! no telling after you die where you will end up)
He died and went to Halliburton......


----------



## Stillraining

Another Co spun off from Red Adair's disgruntled original partners I think...Boots and Coots...I haven't heard if they have been involved or not.

Dang its raining hard here right now!


----------



## erikdj

glassdad said:


> The Navy specializes in blowing things up. They do not have have the know how or the equipment.


Another example of this was Desert Storm. The military brought in oil drilling and capping experts to extinguish the fires left behind by Hussein in Kuwait after the invasion there. They did not have the equipment or knowledge to do it themselves even in the "simpler" case of above-ground oil leaks/fires.

The fact is we were not prepared--not BP, not any government agency to handle this type of disaster. I suppose we all hope and assume that the folks making the decisions to create the potential for disaster also build appropriate safety measures and have the right equipment to respond--but we'd be wrong. On a positive note, we are poised to gain the experience and wisdom to prevent such a thing from happening in the future. If we (citizens, government, etc) perform adequate due diligence, we will hopefully prevent companies like BP from charging ahead thinking first of the bottom line and second of the environment and the rest of us.


----------



## w1651

[/QUOTE]

The fact is we were not prepared--not BP, not any government agency to handle this type of disaster. I suppose we all hope and assume that the folks making the decisions to create the potential for disaster also build appropriate safety measures and have the right equipment to respond--but we'd be wrong. On a positive note, we are poised to gain the experience and wisdom to prevent such a thing from happening in the future. If we (citizens, government, etc) perform adequate due diligence, we will hopefully prevent companies like BP from charging ahead thinking first of the bottom line and second of the environment and the rest of us.[/QUOTE]

That's easier said then done. The problem I have is that everything in the government is broken. The Bank regulators, Boarder patrol, ICE, the MMS, the treasury dept even non government agencies. The SEC, the Federal Reserve is broken and not regulated.
So where do we start? Obviously IMHO at the voting booth. These morons in the government today are professional politicians and haven't got a clue how we the people feel or what we really care about. Look at how many listened when we said no the the bailouts for the banks. 
Iceland is the only smart country on the planet right now. The English and Netherland Govs asked that they pay the money invested back. They put it to a vote and the people said no. With investment comes inherent risk.
You Lost the money in a investment so you lose. I like the way they think. The money we Borrowed to bail out our banks went over seas. Ya what a great idea that was.

And in the meantime BP drills a relief well instead using or trying a shape charge to close the fricken pipe below the gulf floor.


----------



## Stillraining

The people in America are broken...we cant agree on anything.


----------



## Insails

The" I am not going to pay" has started..Transocean who has already recieved over 450 million in insurance payouts for their rig the "Deepwater Horizon" is weasleing out of having to pay....

Judge modifies legal order limiting claims against Deepwater Horizon owner | al.com

This would limit Transoceans loss to only 27million..In other words a drop in the barrell...

Transocean is a slime ball


----------



## w1651

Insails said:


> The" I am not going to pay" has started..Transocean who has already recieved over 450 million in insurance payouts for their rig the "Deepwater Horizon" is weasleing out of having to pay....
> 
> Judge modifies legal order limiting claims against Deepwater Horizon owner | al.com
> 
> This would limit Transoceans loss to only 27million..In other words a drop in the barrell...
> 
> Transocean is a slime ball


That's the dirty little secret. BP Trans ocean Haliburtin will tie this up so long it will be a decade before it gets to the court system. That's the real shame of it all. 
You saw what happened in Alaska with the Valdez. They came out smelling like a rose.
That's why I think we need to press criminal charges against the CEO of BP for criminal neglegence


----------



## Yamsailor

Insails said:


> That is the question we have been asking since day 1 here on the gulf coast..
> 
> amazing thing is the Coast Guard falls under the department of homeland security....yet all they seem to be used for is to keep the press away from what is happening out there....
> 
> Imagine that a forign privately owned oil Company in charge of our homeland securities military arm......
> 
> Lunacy...you bet!...question is How can this happen??


it happened because over the past 15 years there was a big push to privatize as much as govt as possible. Americans asked for it--they got it.


----------



## knothead

LA Times: Engineers have stopped the flow of oil and gas into the Gulf of Mexico from a gushing BP well, the federal government's top oil-spill commander, U.S. Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen, said Thursday morning.

Did Top Kill Work? | Before It's News


----------



## Yamsailor

Thank G-d! Now the let the bickering begin.....

I think we should all do a national regatta to raise money for all the families whos livelihoods have been destroyed. Does anybody know anyone or is the head of any major sailing organization. All entry fees and sponsorship money could go to either clean-up or to the fishermen whos professions have probably been destroyed.


----------



## KeelHaulin

Don't be too sure it's stopped. Live feed shows there is still flow coming out of the ruptured pipe at the BOP. It looks like it might be mud; but that mud will abrade the pipe much faster than the oil with sand particles. They need to get the flow fully stopped before we can say they have this thing under control.


----------



## lancelot9898

KeelHaulin said:


> They need to get the flow fully stopped before we can say they have this thing under control.


I agree that getting it stopped is priority one, but there should be enough resources and leadership available to attack the problem from more than one angle and that is getting it contained. For over a month there is a total lack of leadership and the only thing that being done is finger pointing. Why are not more barriers being constructed to protect the shoreline? There's also technology available to seperate out the oil from the water using a centrifuge. Why is it taking so long to get that system going? The largest centrifuge processes 200,000 gallons per day I believe and there are 30 such units available now. Not sure how fast more machines can be made, but why hasn't full support be given to this and other possibilities for containment? This is a total disgrace!


----------



## KeelHaulin

Dispersants are cheaper and "hide" it better; and Obama is too busy playing golf, hosting mexicans, and pushing the cap&trade and green economy crap (which will result in a global mafia).


----------



## w1651

KeelHaulin said:


> Dispersants are cheaper and "hide" it better; and Obama is too busy playing golf, hosting mexicans, and pushing the cap&trade and green economy crap (which will result in a global mafia).


You got that right.


----------



## sailhog

That's easier said then done. The problem I have is that everything in the government is broken. The Bank regulators, Boarder patrol, ICE, the MMS, the treasury dept even non government agencies. The SEC, the Federal Reserve is broken and not regulated.
So where do we start? Obviously IMHO at the voting booth. These morons in the government today are professional politicians and haven't got a clue how we the people feel or what we really care about. Look at how many listened when we said no the the bailouts for the banks. 
Iceland is the only smart country on the planet right now. The English and Netherland Govs asked that they pay the money invested back. They put it to a vote and the people said no. With investment comes inherent risk.
You Lost the money in a investment so you lose. I like the way they think. The money we Borrowed to bail out our banks went over seas. Ya what a great idea that was.

And in the meantime BP drills a relief well instead using or trying a shape charge to close the fricken pipe below the gulf floor.[/QUOTE]

The reason government is broken is because private industry, with the help of conservatives, broke it. Conservatives do all they can to shield the oil industry against government interferance, condemn government regulation and do all they can to make government regulation as ineffective as possible because they see government as the problem... and then when you have a catastrophe llike this happens, they turn around and say unbelievable things like, "See, government is broken! Where were the regulators?!"

You're right. Government is broken because conservatives broke it. The regulators weren't doing their job because the oil company did everything in their power to make sure that they wouldn't. The government isn't the problem. The modern conservative movement in America is the problem.


----------



## knothead

I am cautiously optimistic that they have stopped the flow, but they won't know for sure for a couple of days.

According to Coast Guard Admiral Thad Allen, the "top kill" procedure has succeeded in stopping the flow of oil into the Gulf. If true, it is the best possible news in the operation to clean up the mess created by the Gulf oil spill.

U.S. official says 'top kill' has stopped BP oil leak, but the fix may not be permanent

Good news from Europe. 
Brussels - Spain, the Netherlands and the European Union have offered equipment to help the United States clean up the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, the European Commission said Friday.
EXTRA: Spain, Netherlands and EU to help US clean up oil spill | Earth Times News

I'm kinda tired of all the politics surrounding this whole disaster. I hope everyone just starts pulling together to make the best of the situation. They can sort out the blame crap later.


----------



## w1651

Hey Sail Hog

And who was in power in the house and senate for the last 6 years? 

I am not going to get into a political debate here because I want all the Bums in Congress out. I have been a registered independent since I was eighteen.It is apparent to me now more than then anyway the problem with government is not republican or democrat it is career politicians. 
That makes the problem both sides of the isle.


----------



## KeelHaulin

sailhog said:


> Government is broken because conservatives broke it. The regulators weren't doing their job because the oil company did everything in their power to make sure that they wouldn't. The government isn't the problem. The modern conservative movement in America is the problem.


I think you need to check this... Let's see. Are the problems with Greece's economy failing due to "conservatism"? No; that would be due to LIBERALISM. Is the reason that all of Europe's economies hang on a cliff due to conservatism? No, that would also be due to LIBERALISM/PROGRESSIVISM.

Was the US BANK INDUSTRY BAILOUT due to conservatism? NO, that would be due to BARNEY FRANK, CHRIS DODD and the rest of the PROGRESSIVES; who forced Fannie and Freddie to approve loans with cash back to people who had no possible way of repaying them! Then it caused crashes in the banking and investment industry. AIG failed because of all the credit default insurance they had sold on what were assumed to be A++ securities. Now who controls AIG, Fannie, and Freddie? The F'in PROGRESSIVE government who screwed them in the first place! Kick the PROGRESSIVES WHO LARGELY HIDE BEHIND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OUT; this has nothing to do with CONSERVATIVES OR THE TEA PARTY.


----------



## sailhog

knothead said:


> I'm kinda tired of all the politics surrounding this whole disaster. I hope everyone just starts pulling together to make the best of the situation. They can sort out the blame crap later.


Knotty, I'm with you here.

Keel, everyone else, I'll keep my mouth shut vis-a-vis politics on this thread... Sorry...


----------



## w1651

KeelHaulin said:


> I think you need to check this... Let's see. Are the problems with Greece's economy failing due to "conservatism"? No; that would be due to LIBERALISM. Is the reason that all of Europe's economies hang on a cliff due to conservatism? No, that would also be due to LIBERALISM/PROGRESSIVISM.
> 
> The F'in PROGRESSIVE government who screwed them in the first place! Kick the PROGRESSIVES WHO LARGELY HIDE BEHIND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OUT; this has nothing to do with CONSERVATIVES OR THE TEA PARTY.


All Im sayin is Bush never saw a spending bill the repubs and he didn't like.

I understand what you are saying about the dems. But progressives are in both parties and like I said before I want to kick the bums out.

By the way back in 1989 the S&L crisis in the midwest had a guy at the center of it. REMEMBER HIS NAME?
Another banking crises with his brother in the office of president. Coincidence? I THINK NOT! There all a bunch of crooks and thieves and need to go away.


----------



## Insails




----------



## w1651

Insails said:


>


Amen brother!

This is going to cost and should cost BP a lot of money. They are saying 950 million so far in clean up. I think that's a wee bit of blarney on their part. Maybe total including trying to stop the leak but not clean up alone.


----------



## utchuckd

.


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## Insails




----------



## Insails

It dont look good for the Gulf Coast and maybe up the Atlantic Seaboard
They have suspended efforts to stop the leak again..Even tried "junk Shot"..

BP's Effort to Plug Oil Leak Suspended a Second Time - NYTimes.com


----------



## cormeum

From the NYT:

At a news conference in Washington on Thursday, Mr. Obama said he was angry and frustrated about the catastrophe, and he shouldered much of the responsibility for the continuing crisis. 
"Those who think we were either slow on the response or lacked urgency, don't know the facts," Mr. Obama said. "*This has been our highest priority*."

:laugher yeah, it's hard to sit on your thumbs for a month.


----------



## Insails

My sailing days are over for [email protected]&%w you BP!
The oil will be crossing Dauphin island and headed for the Gulf Beaches by Sunday....
Mississippi Coast,Alabama Coast and the Florida Panhandle may see the oil onshoar next week...
http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/book_shelf/2082_TMF72-2010-05-27-2100.pdf


----------



## nolatom

Insails said:


> It dont look good for the Gulf Coast and maybe up the Atlantic Seaboard
> They have suspended efforts to stop the leak again..Even tried "junk Shot"..
> 
> BP's Effort to Plug Oil Leak Suspended a Second Time - NYTimes.com


Oh, Crud.. if true, not good weekend news for down here..


----------



## Insails

nolatom said:


> Oh, Crud.. if true, not good weekend news for down here..


Not good news for the rest of Summer and into Fall...It could be spewing oil until the relief well is finished sometime in late August...12 more weeks of hell unleashed into the gulf that may spread to the Atlantic Seaboard via the gulf Stream...estimatres so far are near 30 million gallons...imagine the numbers by Late August...It has to go somewhere and the Gulf Stream is it's ride
:hothead


----------



## knothead

There is still hope. Prayers might be in order.

The engineers also said that the problem they encountered was not entirely unexpected, and that they believed that they would ultimately succeed.

BP Resumes Effort to Plug Oil Leak After Suspension - NYTimes.com


----------



## Insails

knothead said:


> There is still hope. Prayers might be in order.
> 
> The engineers also said that the problem they encountered was not entirely unexpected, and that they believed that they would ultimately succeed.
> 
> BP Resumes Effort to Plug Oil Leak After Suspension - NYTimes.com


thanks knothead
On again off again....They seem to have an "iffy" relationship with the Gulf...

One thing for sure on the North Central Gulf Coast it's no longer "If" it gets here but when...those feelings seem to have been echoed for weeks now but we have one big arse plume threatning us at the moment
New, giant sea oil plume seen in Gulf stretching toward Mobile Bay | al.com


----------



## w1651

cormeum said:


> From the NYT:
> 
> At a news conference in Washington on Thursday, Mr. Obama said he was angry and frustrated about the catastrophe, and he shouldered much of the responsibility for the continuing crisis.
> "Those who think we were either slow on the response or lacked urgency, don't know the facts," Mr. Obama said. "*This has been our highest priority*."
> 
> :laugher yeah, it's hard to sit on your thumbs for a month.


He wasn't sitting on them he was standing with them up his A$$! Ouch!


----------



## w1651

When this thing starts to roll up on Cuba do you think Castro will want a little compensation? That might be an interesting situation. Castro might want to throw the CEO in jail in Cuba.
Hell he might get more done in a day then our gov in 2 months. Just a thought!


----------



## Insails

It gets better..

will we ever know the truth??
Unreal no free press...This is America right?

Limits on access to oiled waters, coast frustrates journalists | NOLA.com


----------



## kootenay

w1651 said:


> When this thing starts to roll up on Cuba do you think Castro will want a little compensation? That might be an interesting situation. Castro might want to throw the CEO in jail in Cuba.
> Hell he might get more done in a day then our gov in 2 months. Just a thought!


Actually you raise an interesting question. What liability will the US bear should this spill impact other countries?

I dont know the answer but if it was two neighbours and one messes up and causes a spill on his property that then leaks over to the other and it happened in say, Florida I suspect the courts would find the first guy liable. Would it be the same if say this impacted BVI or Cuba as it well could?

And how much if the US is liable would the damages be?

I guess if a country benefits from the revenue of offshore drilling they should also be prepared to deal with the liability. Should that liability extend to those areas not owned by any single nation but are "international" in nature? If so then what world body would act to recover damages? the body overseeing the Convention on the Sea? The UN?


----------



## kootenay

sailhog said:


> I don't understand you guys who think the U.S. government is the responsible party in all of this. Were you really surprised to learn that the government didn't have a fleet of ROVs capable of operating a mile below sea level that could cap oil wells? Before this tragedy, wouldn't you have argued that the business of oil should be left to the oil business? After all, aren't you all for minimal government and unfettered markets?
> 
> The oil industry has worked hard to get the government off its back. It has constantly lobbied to avoid regulation, to keep government out of its business... and then something like this happens and now you guys claim it's not the fault of the oil company but the fault of the government the oil companies have fought to neuter? If anyone other than the oil companies are to blame, it's the whole deregulation crowd and the political forces that have seen fit to strictly limit government regulation where it's needed.
> 
> You guys don't want to admit it, but deep down you really don't think the Sierra Club is to blame for this tragedy. Go ahead and make the argument, but nobody's buying it.


Great post you are right on the money.


----------



## kd3pc

Koot


Just how is this accident the responsibility of the US?? All of the liability is BP Oil PLC and their stockholders....we, the US do not own the Gulf of Mexico, nor is that oil "ours" when it leaves the ground. Nor are we liable for the "accident"...nor did the US own the rig...

IF and it is a big IF the UN was useful in any way, this would be a perfect situation for them. Just like the pirating in the Straits of Hormuz...but as with most things UN, the UN is all talk, nothing more. So to expect them, or ANYone to do anything is ludicrous. To hold the US liable is as equally insane.

The US, as in most disasters, is the first to jump in(right or wrong) to help...but the ultimate cost to clean up, no matter where or what that $$$amount is - falls to BP. Do you see any other country standing by with anything to help or assist??

Funny how you immediately jump on who is liable, and who is going to make things whole again...in a situation where that is simply impossible to do so.

The speculation that this spill will make it to Cuba and the East Coast beaches, as the media and many so called experts are saying is premature and does more damage to those areas, economically than the oil itself.

One only has to look at the "tarball" reports...tarballs have existed and have been on the coasts for at least 40 years, I know I have seen them, stepped in them, and had to remove them...long before an oil spill had happened off the east coast....You mean I could have sued someone way back then??

People, look for solutions and realities. screw the doomsayer experts who want their 5 minutes of fame, regardless of the facts at hand.


----------



## Insails

Whats the use in having territorial waters up to 200 miles off shoar if we dont atleast monitor them or control them?...I dont think Great Briton would allow us to drill 50 miles off their coast and take oil from underneath their land....


----------



## jackdale

Insails said:


> Whats the use in having territorial waters up to 200 miles off shoar if we dont atleast monitor them or control them?...I dont think Great Briton would allow us to drill 50 miles off their coast and take oil from underneath their land....


Actually terroitorial waters extend 12 miles, the exclusive economic zone extends 200 miles.



> Originally, a country's sovereign territorial waters extended 3 nautical miles or 6 km (range of cannon shot) beyond the shore. In modern times traditionally, a country's sovereign territorial waters extend to 12 nautical miles (~19 km) beyond the shore. In the early 1970s, Ecuador claimed territorial waters extending to 200 nautical miles. They began seizing U.S. tuna-fishing boats and charging heavy fines (that the U.S. government paid). Eventually the U.S. agreed to submit the issue to the International Court of Justice at The Hague.[4] This eventually led to the recognition of 12 nautical miles as normal for the territorial sea/waters and binding international recognition of the 200 mile Exclusive Economic Zone by the Third United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea in 1982.


That puts the BP spill in US jurisdiction. They have US permission to drill.



> In February 2009, BP filed a 52-page exploration and environmental impact plan for the Macondo well with the Minerals Management Service (MMS), an arm of the United States Department of the Interior that oversees offshore drilling. The plan stated that it was "unlikely that an accidental surface or subsurface oil spill would occur from the proposed activities"[58] In the event an accident did take place the plan stated that due to the well being 48 miles (77 km) from shore and the response capabilities that would be implemented, no significant adverse impacts would be expected.[58] The Department of the Interior exempted BP's Gulf of Mexico drilling operation from a detailed environmental impact study after concluding that a massive oil spill was unlikely.


----------



## MARC2012

Why don't we take the junk bonds.paper work from the bad mortages,& all other govt. bailout projects & soak the oil up.Latest I heard daddy could not plug the holemarc


----------



## seafrontiersman

*What NOBODY mentions*

Without minimizing the effects of the poison pouring into our ocean, I'd advise everyone to take the comments the good people of Lousiana make with a grain of salt. The same people who you see whining [edit] on tv routinely trash their land and water. I've worked the Gulf for 9 years and I'm very familiar with the way those people behave.

The same [edit] who cry on cue on CNN will normally dump used oil/filters from their oil changes into the water. The same corrupt Lousiana officials who whine about all the help they need are the same ones who, for a consideration, allow companies to dump chemicals into the waters and municipalities/individuals to dump garbage into the waters.

As a typical example, when I first started working in the Gulf, the vessel I was assigned to (owned by a Lousiana company) was in a S. Lousianna shipyard and the Captain (a fellow Yankee) reported the yard to the police when he noted the yard employees turning over dumpsters full of half empty paint cans, oily rags, and other garbage into the river every afternoon. The police informed the yard manager (as a favor) and the yard manager informed the owners and the upshot was that the Captain was fired on the spot and replaced with someone who would "play ball". The yard continues to dump their waste and I've also seen this done in Bayou La. Batre.


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## knothead

MAY 30, 2010, 9:15 A.M. ET
 *'Top Kill' Fails to Stop Flow of Oil From Gulf Leak *

'Top Kill' Fails to Stop Flow of Oil From Gulf Leak - WSJ.com


----------



## kootenay

kd3pc said:


> Koot
> 
> Just how is this accident the responsibility of the US?? All of the liability is BP Oil PLC and their stockholders....we, the US do not own the Gulf of Mexico, nor is that oil "ours" when it leaves the ground. Nor are we liable for the "accident"...nor did the US own the rig...


As previous posters have mentioned the accident happened in waters the US claims control over and receives royalties for the extraction of oil, as such by their own admission it is their problem. BP has a licence from the US government and contracted with Transocean to drill the hole. Its like me hiring a backhoe operator to dig a hole on my property and I hit a oil line which leaks on to your property next door. I am going to be liable for the damages caused to your property even though I wasnt operating the back hoe. I may well sue the backhoe operator to recover your damage claim but only if it can be shown that he was negligent can I hope to succeed. If he followed the agreement and excercised due diligence then its my posterior. The US has law written in 1851 that limits liability of a vessels operator to the value of the ship that may well help mitigate Transocean's liability but not BP's.

In any case its a serious mess for which ultimately the US is responsible for the clean up and restoration of the environment. Its also a game changer as regards offshore drilling for every country.


----------



## fjon

In case it hasn't already been posted, here's a link to BP's live cam of the oil leak. Still going ...

City Brights: Yobie Benjamin : Live Feed: BP oil spill / gusher video cam | Document-the-oil-slick apps


----------



## Insails

This is a good link to understand just exactly what is going on...

you can learn about the LMRP project which is BP's next attempt
The Oil Drum | Discussions about Energy and Our Future

even if you don't like the messenger....this is amazing and truthful:


----------



## ericread

fjon said:


> In case it hasn't already been posted, here's a link to BP's live cam of the oil leak. Still going ...
> 
> City Brights: Yobie Benjamin : Live Feed: BP oil spill / gusher video cam | Document-the-oil-slick apps


Have you noticed that BP is showing much less of the actual oil flow and more time in green screen and in pictures away form the broken pipe?


----------



## w1651

ericread said:


> Have you noticed that BP is showing much less of the actual oil flow and more time in green screen and in pictures away form the broken pipe?


Of course they are. They don't want to show what is the worst ecological disaster known to the Gulf of Mexico on camera. Especially since the top kill and the throw the kitchen sink at it ideas didn't work. 
Are we ready to set the charges to blow the pipe closed yet?


----------



## ericread

w1651 said:


> Of course they are. They don't want to show what is the worst ecological disaster known to the Gulf of Mexico on camera. Especially since the top kill and the throw the kitchen sink at it ideas didn't work.
> Are we ready to set the charges to blow the pipe closed yet?


I keep hearing here about setting explosive charges to close the leak. As I have no knowledge abdout setting explosive charges, maybe someone with experience in this area can shed some light;

Is there a chance that setting such a charge would fracture the rock around the well and cause a larger volume of oil to escape? And could such a situation create a problem where the well might be near impossible to ever close off?

Or in setting such a charge, will this create a situation where BP would lose the ability to use the existing hole to later tap the well?

So I guess I'm asking is this a technical issue or merely a financial issue?

Either way, I strongly believe that all off-shore drilling should come to a stop until the drilling industry can demonstrate they can responsibly shut off any blow outs. The oil industry needs to regain the public trust and show integrity before this tragedy happens again.

Just my $.02

Eric Read


----------



## GaryHLucas

Eric,
Can you be more specific? Which ones of the more than 4000 oil platforms already in the gulf of Mexico would you tell to stop drilling? Can they simply be shut down, or is there a good chance that some of them would also have spills as a result?

Gary H. Lucas


----------



## Yamsailor

Well,

According to the latest news reports. All drilling and oil pumping in the Gulf has been shut-down pending safety reviews.


----------



## k1vsk

Some of this is pointless; the rest is simply intended to vilify BP when any American oil company is equivalent for this purpose. None of this drivel is constructive and makes one wonder how some can waste so much time here doing essentially nothing.

BP, Deepwater Horizon, et al, regardless of who somebody wants to blame, is doing precisely the same thing every other oil production company is doing in the U.S., the same way, under the same regs, using the same technology, etc. Kind of begs the question why vilify one company when any of them, including Exxon, could create the same mess. Criticizing only one is dumb, yet they want to focus on only one company.

These jerks stop whining about one company (when any of them could have created this same situation) and use their abundant free time to figure out a way to hydrolize water economically, on a practical scale and mass produce the technology, we'd all be better served.
Meanwhile, they will continue to waste their time on computers made of plastic, running on oil fired electric power and drive their gas powered cars and never see them point!

They add nothing to the debate.


----------



## Ulladh

While I am no fan of BP or the oil industry in general, or the speed at which BP is trying to limit the gush of oil into the gulf, it would appear that the approach is to try options that minimaly reduce the potential for future solution if the current ones fail.

I suspect that the relieve wells, still weeks to go, may be the only solution that actualy works, but blowing up the well head sound like a last ditch option, with no potential back-up plan.


----------



## mdbee

*Bs*

They aren't stopping the pumping of existing wells. 25% of our oil comes from the Gulf. Can you imagine what the price of oil/gasoline be if Obama did that?



Yamsailor said:


> Well,
> 
> According to the latest news reports. All drilling and oil pumping in the Gulf has been shut-down pending safety reviews.


----------



## k1vsk

ROSA said:


> You have nothing but negative to say about those who truly care. They like BP have no idea what to do about this. But they unlike BP really do care. BP is just presenting a PR BS dog and pony show for the uninformed public. They know that the things they are doing will not work before they go for it. BP, what a sack of roaches they are! BS the public, that is their game!


And you know this how? direct knowledge working with these people? perception?
Let's take a wild guess.

One might think those who presumably care so much might find a better avenue of doing something about it than complaining but then you go and prove my point for me...

It's too easy to sit in the weeds until something like this happens and then do nothing but complain about it.


----------



## ericread

GaryHLucas said:


> Eric,
> Can you be more specific? Which ones of the more than 4000 oil platforms already in the gulf of Mexico would you tell to stop drilling? Can they simply be shut down, or is there a good chance that some of them would also have spills as a result?
> 
> Gary H. Lucas


Gary;

I doubt whether there are more than a few dozen platforms currently in drilling mode. Most of the gulf platforms are in production mode, with no actual drilling being perfomed.

My issue is this; The oil exploration companies have convinced us that deep water exploration drilling is safe and environmentally protective. Now we find out that this is a lie. We find out that in deep water situations, the entire oil industry, working together, has no idea how to stop a runaway well.

Kinda reminds me of the tobacco companies telling us that smoking is safe, and that there is no link between smoking and lung cancer. Only in this case, instead of killing an individual whom choses to smoke, we potentially kill an entire coastline, and possibly part of the eastern seaboard.

So if you're an apologist of oil exploration companies, or feel that the ecosystem of the gulf coast is an appropriate cost to pay for cheap gasoline, I'd have to say you're no sailor that I'd care to sail with. Do you throw your garbage overboard, or empty your head while you're in the harbor? Although you obviously have a love for sailing, do you have such a lack of respect for the seas that the fouling of such a major body of water really doesn't make a difference?

I apologize if this sounds personal as that is not my intent, I'm only trying to make a point. Of all the people discussing this situation, I am a bit surprised that the people whom sail these waters, and the waters of the Atlantic and Pacific, have such an apparent lack of concern for the safety and life of the seas we sail.

Eric


----------



## snb25

*oil spill*

ive pondered what i could do with the "option'of free crude oil...i wonder if anyone or co. could scoup up for free what would happen?...


----------



## ericread

snb25 said:


> ive pondered what i could do with the "option'of free crude oil...i wonder if anyone or co. could scoup up for free what would happen?...


A majority of any usable oil is moving at the bottom of the gulf, about 5,000 feet down. And with the dispersants used, most of that oil has been partially dissolved into the water, making the water more toxic, but without the appearance of oil being present.

Eric


----------



## fjon

ericread said:


> I keep hearing here about setting explosive charges to close the leak. As I have no knowledge abdout setting explosive charges, maybe someone with experience in this area can shed some light;
> 
> Is there a chance that setting such a charge would fracture the rock around the well and cause a larger volume of oil to escape? And could such a situation create a problem where the well might be near impossible to ever close off?
> 
> Or in setting such a charge, will this create a situation where BP would lose the ability to use the existing hole to later tap the well?
> 
> So I guess I'm asking is this a technical issue or merely a financial issue?
> 
> Either way, I strongly believe that all off-shore drilling should come to a stop until the drilling industry can demonstrate they can responsibly shut off any blow outs. The oil industry needs to regain the public trust and show integrity before this tragedy happens again.
> 
> Just my $.02
> 
> Eric Read


The explosive seal talk seems to be generated by this Russian video floating around the net of their sealing of a burning gas well on land. wtfk


----------



## seafrontiersman

*A few examples for you.*



ROSA said:


> And just how long have you observed these things that you spew. I have lived here all of my life and know no one here who lives as you purport. Those things may occur but no group intentionally pollutes their home waters. How about a real example of what you present. Site a few specific examples or hush.


Cameron, La. pogy plant.

Cameron, La. Shrimpers on any of the three-four docks you may find on the east bank of monkey island cut. Specifically F/V Gods grace, beachmaster, lil anna are the ones I've seen most recently.

Cameron, La the partially sunken shrimp boats leaking oil out of their tanks on both sides of monkey island cut.

Morgan City, La. a number of shipyards/vessel repair facilities, I still have to use these yards on occasion so I don't dare to name names because those people are an underhanded bunch and I'll have lots of problems if the word gets out.

Berwick, La. Baroid dock.

Port Fourchon, La. any of the shrimpers you might find in old Fourchon.

Bayou La Batre, Al. La Force S/Y routinely dumps garbage into the bayou, I mention this little slice of heaven specifically because I personally reported them to the Coast Guard.

I haven't used Homa, Venice, or Cocodrie in a long time so but I have seen much of the same behavior.

The people of South Lousianna DO foul their homes not so much from malice as from third-world phillistine ignorance and corruption. What I've written is a fact and I see it almost every day I'm on duty.


----------



## k1vsk

ROSA said:


> Yadda, Yadda, Yadda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I asked you specific questions to defend your position and get this - how eloquent, and telling...


----------



## Cruisingdad

GO SAILING GUYS!

I do not mind a good deabte as long as ylou people can be conscious of how your responses are being received. There are multiple forum violations all over this thread from multiple members. You cannot win an argument over the internet.

Now guys, I would like to urge everyone to be sensitive to what is happening to the lives and livlihoods of many people that are directly effected by this. Comments and remarks are bound to be polarized. I was at a cruisers party last night and that was about 90% of the conversation(s)... and I am in SW Florida and way away from the direct impacts (at least now). I cannot imagine seeing that crap floating on my hometown shores or just off of them... with no end in sight.

I am not drawing blame and I do not mean to defend anyone whose comments may be over the top. I just want everyone to realize that this is a very contentious issue for those whose lives and families are being directly effected. Expect a heated debate. But if anyone on either side cannot keep it civil and be thoughtful in what and how they respond, I will edit posts, delete posts, or just shut this thread down alltogether.

Understand, we are getting multiple "reported threads" from this thread and we are getting worn out having to come here and deal with it (esp on a holiday).

Thanks.

Brian


----------



## GaryHLucas

I am not an apologist for anybody. I simply recognize that there are NO safe technologies! We all want what BP, Exxon etc. produce. We all it want it cheap and limitless. So many of us buy big pickups, and SUVs and then complain about the oil companies. People buy big houses they really can't afford, then complain about the banks. People have five children, then complain about property taxes, which mostly goes to schools. When people stop putting the outhouse next to the well, then we can look at actually solving the problems.

That said, I'd like to suggest really long prison terms for any regulator in bed with any industry they are supposed to be regulating. I think cleaning tarballs out of the swamps for the rest of your natural life would be a fair sentence.

Gary H. Lucas


----------



## k1vsk

While it is obvious there will be significant environmental impact from this spill, it isn't the first nor will it be the last; just the most recent. There are approx 3500 production facilities and wells just in the Gulf. No reasonable person expects there won't be a significant spill sooner or later from this enormous number of potential sources.

We expect regulations and the regulators to strike a balance between protectiveness and practical reality of the marketplace. It's too easy to sit here now and blame politicians, the government, regulations or regulatory agencies when they are meeting our overall expectations of prudent management without over-regulation or constraining the economy. The government is not the enemy.

None of the oil production companies does anything more, less or different than BP or Deepwater. This could have as easily happened to any of the thousands of facilities in the Gulf or elsewhere. BP is not the enemy.

Those who so quickly criticize ought to be a bit more introspective - it is not the government, BP or politicians who caused this - at it's most fundamental level, we caused it.

We drive exploration for oil, we demand U.S. production locations, we expect cheap petroleum, we require all of petroleum's derivative materials and we don't want to change any of that.

We get what we deserve.

About the only thing we can learn from this (latest) incident is that some people would rather complain about it but with no apparent good reason.


----------



## diablo243

Well said!


----------



## ericread

GaryHLucas said:


> I am not an apologist for anybody. I simply recognize that there are NO safe technologies! We all want what BP, Exxon etc. produce. We all it want it cheap and limitless. So many of us buy big pickups, and SUVs and then complain about the oil companies. People buy big houses they really can't afford, then complain about the banks. People have five children, then complain about property taxes, which mostly goes to schools. When people stop putting the outhouse next to the well, then we can look at actually solving the problems.
> 
> That said, I'd like to suggest really long prison terms for any regulator in bed with any industry they are supposed to be regulating. I think cleaning tarballs out of the swamps for the rest of your natural life would be a fair sentence.
> 
> Gary H. Lucas


Gary;

I am glad to see that we agree on this 100%. I would also like to see the same prison terms for any oil company executives that misled us down this ugly path.

Eric Read


----------



## nolatom

Flip side of that coin is, the more sabers rattle about criminal charges (and "General" Eric Holder is talking, asking for money, and traveling (down here today) to do just that, the more witnesses (meaning the important ones) will take the Fifth (one so far, and counting) and much less will be learned by the investigation Board here, and the President's new Commission, and anyone else in the myriad of speechifying Congressional Committees.

Might the cry for jail-type revenge be premature, and ultimately unproductive, in terms of getting to the bottom of things so as to prevent a recurrence?


----------



## chucklesR

Politics are ultimately, hand waving, speechifying and finger pointing. 

Sending the A.G. down to investigate this is akin to calling the police because your six year old isn't doing well in school, but ultimately looks good in political circles. A.G.'s can only pursue CRIMINAL cases. Not civil. 

There's going to be a lot of hand wringing and finger pointing, reams and reams of newsprint, and suddenly we will find that no laws were broken - except perhaps by minor government employees who did not do the monthly inspections for safety and compliance they were supposed to do.
We already know they didn't, and we already know Obama's folks (not blaming him individually) sent a letter of appreciation to this well in particular for being so good on safety and compliance. 
Anything else we 'discover' will be that both parties, and every level of government was part and parcel to the lack of enforcement at some level - either by reducing regulation, not funding enforcement and all the litany of screw ups that our government amply supplies us with. 

Then, because scapegoats are handy, some poor smuck (who's name has already made the press) who had the duty the night the well blew will be castigated publicly for not making the decision to use the shutoff while there was still hydraulic pressure to work it. But, alas, he broke no criminal laws.

For that we'll go through endless committee meetings and months of muck raking and hand wringing. 
Then 1,000 pages of new law later (and more months of Congressional yammering) we'll have a law that still doesn't cover it. 

Anyone placing bets on that?


----------



## Insails

Since many will be exposed to this along the Gulf Coast it should be posted.
This is some very nasty stuff especially when you add in the dispersants..
Toxic soup in the water and the air above as evaporation creates vapors..
some relief workers have already had ailments..

Crude Oil Toxicity


----------



## w1651

nolatom said:


> Flip side of that coin is, the more sabers rattle about criminal charges (and "General" Eric Holder is talking, asking for money, and traveling (down here today) to do just that, the more witnesses (meaning the important ones) will take the Fifth (one so far, and counting) and much less will be learned by the investigation Board here, and the President's new Commission, and anyone else in the myriad of speechifying Congressional Committees.
> 
> Might the cry for jail-type revenge be premature, and ultimately unproductive, in terms of getting to the bottom of things so as to prevent a recurrence?


Tell that to the eleven families that didn't celebrate memorial day with them yesterday.


----------



## w1651

k1vsk said:


> While it is obvious there will be significant environmental impact from this spill, it isn't the first nor will it be the last; just the most recent. There are approx 3500 production facilities and wells just in the Gulf. No reasonable person expects there won't be a significant spill sooner or later from this enormous number of potential sources.
> 
> We expect regulations and the regulators to strike a balance between protectiveness and practical reality of the marketplace. It's too easy to sit here now and blame politicians, the government, regulations or regulatory agencies when they are meeting our overall expectations of prudent management without over-regulation or constraining the economy. The government is not the enemy.
> 
> None of the oil production companies does anything more, less or different than BP or Deepwater. This could have as easily happened to any of the thousands of facilities in the Gulf or elsewhere. BP is not the enemy.
> 
> Those who so quickly criticize ought to be a bit more introspective - it is not the government, BP or politicians who caused this - at it's most fundamental level, we caused it.
> 
> We drive exploration for oil, we demand U.S. production locations, we expect cheap petroleum, we require all of petroleum's derivative materials and we don't want to change any of that.
> 
> We get what we deserve.
> 
> About the only thing we can learn from this (latest) incident is that some people would rather complain about it but with no apparent good reason.


When regulators let the company fill out the safety forms, when men get killed because of the negligence of the company and the government, when a spill occurs because of that negligence then it is time to seriously consider criminal charges. Not just fire the lady in charge.

None of the companies do any more or less then BP did huh? You should really check the safety record of those companies before you speak.

Shell 8 safety violations last year 
Conoco phillips 8 safety violations last year
exxon mobile 1 safety violation last year
BP over 700 safety violations last year.


----------



## k1vsk

Nola Tom is correct - there is nothing constructive which ever resulted from revenge. Revenge is a childish reaction.

What is really jaw-dropping is the people who act with indignation about this explosion and spill but it never bothered them that this would inevitably happen as a result of having this much oil production in the Gulf. Nobody can be that naive...


----------



## KeelHaulin

k1vsk said:


> While it is obvious there will be significant environmental impact from this spill, it isn't the first nor will it be the last; just the most recent. There are approx 3500 production facilities and wells just in the Gulf. No reasonable person expects there won't be a significant spill sooner or later from this enormous number of potential sources.


Dude- Have you not read that this spill is now the #1 largest offshore spill in US history? The upper end estimate puts it larger than Ixtoc-I now; which was the largest spill in the history of the Gulf. What if their attempt at cutting/capping fails? What will the volume be in 2 months with an un-restricted flow? This is not just a "significant" spill; it's a massive one and it could get much, much larger before they get it stopped.



> We expect regulations and the regulators to strike a balance between protectiveness and practical reality of the marketplace. It's too easy to sit here now and blame politicians, the government, regulations or regulatory agencies when they are meeting our overall expectations of prudent management without over-regulation or constraining the economy. The government is not the enemy.


So paying off the authorities to sign off and look the other way to circumvent the regulations that are already in place is OK? NOBODY in the government was bought off or too busy watching internet porn? The remediation plan that BP submitted and was approved is a complete joke. The response assets that were supposed to be on hand to deal with this spill were not even on site or available; nor capable of dealing with the worst-case volume.



> None of the oil production companies does anything more, less or different than BP or Deepwater. This could have as easily happened to any of the thousands of facilities in the Gulf or elsewhere. BP is not the enemy.


The problem is just that. They drill with no expectation that there will be a problem; and upon failure there is little that can be done to stop it. WE THE CONSUMER have NO CONTROL over how the oil is drilled for; what safety measures are put in place, or how a spill is to be controlled/stopped. These regulations are in the hands of the federal government who all too often have been found not doing their job; leaving the public interest unprotected.

The thousands of rigs in the Gulf are not actively drilling. The risks of a spill are vastly lower once they have entered the production phase. It's during the drilling operation where there is a risk of "blowout" and failure resulting in uncontrolled gushing flow. I don't discount the fact that there are thousands of rigs out there safely operating; but as we see with this spill the stakes are extremely high and failure is truly "not an option".



> Those who so quickly criticize ought to be a bit more introspective - it is not the government, BP or politicians who caused this - at it's most fundamental level, we caused it.
> 
> We drive exploration for oil, we demand U.S. production locations, we expect cheap petroleum, we require all of petroleum's derivative materials and we don't want to change any of that.
> 
> We get what we deserve.
> 
> About the only thing we can learn from this (latest) incident is that some people would rather complain about it but with no apparent good reason.


Try telling all who rely on the Gulf for their income (fishermen, tourism, etc) that they "deserve" this. Or the families of the 11 men who died. I think if you did to their face you would be going home with a black eye or two.

Well we could be carrying spears and wearing loincloths; I guess that would mitigate the need for petroleum. But that's not how our world operates and our economy is driven by the use of fossil fuels. Nothing is going to change that anytime soon; and you can't just say it's the fault of "US" and not the people who were in the position to make critical decisions on an oil production rig.

Have you not heard the report from a father of one of the platform workers? Here is the story from the father; since his son died:

The son was an engineer and mud analyst. He reported to the rig boss that the return mud was showing rubber particles coming up; which could only be from one location, the BOP. The decision that came back from the "Company Man" (the BP representative on the rig); was to continue drilling.

Care to revise your statement on "who's fault" it was? I'd say that it certainly was BP's fault; or at the least the fault of those who chose to not heed the warnings and pull out the drill to repair the BOP seal. This has nothing to do with the consumer. It has everything to do with the practices of offshore drilling and non-oversight. It also is the fault of our government (and public opinion) to restrict drilling in other locations; forcing oil exploration in the gulf further offshore and into deeper water where the risks are higher; and we are forced to "trust" the oil industry and the government regulators more.

BTW; the Ixtoc-I oil spill was almost identical in the failure and subsequent response practices/procedures. Which means almost nothing has changed in the last 30 years except that they are drilling in deeper water. The BOP did not close on that rig because the drill pipe was in the riser. WTF good does a BOP do if it can't shut down the flow when a drill pipe is in it? When they strike oil is when a blowout is going to occur; not after they extract the drill! In the aftermath of Ixtoc-I; they never addressed this, and guess what it was the same offshore drilling company - Transocean! Yep; Transocean is responsible not once, but twice now for massive oil spills in the Gulf; for almost exactly the same reason. Again; is it the consumer who is "at fault" here?


----------



## w1651

k1vsk said:


> Nola Tom is correct - there is nothing constructive which ever resulted from revenge. Revenge is a childish reaction.
> 
> What is really jaw-dropping is the people who act with indignation about this explosion and spill but it never bothered them that this would inevitably happen as a result of having this much oil production in the Gulf. Nobody can be that naive...


Your right revenge is wrong. But when laws are abandoned and due diligence is not applied people are liable either civilly or criminally.
When government regulators don't do their own paperwork someone is liable for that. When CEO's care more about profits then safety they are liable. 
If this had been anyone else like you or me we would both be under the jail by now.


----------



## k1vsk

w1651 said:


> None of the companies do any more or less then BP did huh? You should really check the safety record of those companies before you speak.
> 
> Shell 8 safety violations last year
> Conoco phillips 8 safety violations last year
> exxon mobile 1 safety violation last year
> BP over 700 safety violations last year.


You might want to cite your source.

These companies vary widely in number of potential sources. Simply citing numbers is misleading (again!!!).

The NRC database which includes ALL incidents from ALL companies in the U.S. indicates the following:

number of platform spills/violations during 2010: total 452
BP 35 (7%)


----------



## w1651

k1vsk said:


> You might want to cite your source.
> 
> These companies vary widely in number of potential sources. Simply citing numbers is misleading (again!!!).
> 
> The NRC database which includes ALL incidents from ALL companies in the U.S. indicates the following:
> 
> number of platform spills/violations during 2010: total 452
> BP 35 (7%)


The source was abc news.  That should get you ranting and raving.
And the numbers were for SAFETY VIOLATIONS not spills.
And the violations were on platforms as well as their refineries. Safety not Spills.


----------



## Cruisingdad

Boy... if this does not make you gasp, I am not sure what would:

Oil Spill: How big is it? - weather.com

Brian


----------



## remetau

I know, and look at this 72 hour trajectory map from NOAA:

http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/book_shelf/2109_SOFM72-2010-06-01-1900.pdf


----------



## GreatWhite

Unfortunately unless people wake up and realize that the low hanging fruit with respect to oil is GONE, we are now drilling in deeper, into riskier and more sensitive areas to meet the insatiable appetite for oil…EXPECT to see more of this. This is not the president’s fault, not BPs fault…it is OUR fault for not changing our consumption habits.

Big homes, shiny toys, cars, vacations, …THIS IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.

Our environment CANNOT take the destruction of more species and the increasing use of non-renewable resources.

There are many people who are in a state of denial or feel defeated BUT if we all work together to and take personal responsibility to SLOW down. Our grand parents did not need the CRAP we have and they were just as happy!!!

It is a lie that consuming makes us happier, and will keep us alive.


----------



## KeelHaulin

Cruisingdad said:


> Boy... if this does not make you gasp, I am not sure what would:
> 
> Oil Spill: How big is it? - weather.com
> 
> Brian


I think their math is a little off. The site first said 504,000 to 798,000 gallons/day. That's 12,000 to 19,000 BPD. Then they "extrapolate" to 1.5 months and say that's 34 million gallons every day; but really it's every 1.5 months. So the pictures showing 52 olympic sized pools is the total for 1.5 months; not every day.

However; I don't agree that it's 19,000 BPD; because the scientists who estimate flow volumes put it at a daily volume closer to 70,000 BPD. At that rate the total volume would be 190 Olympic sized pools in the last 1.5 months.


----------



## w1651

GreatWhite said:


> Unfortunately unless people wake up and realize that the low hanging fruit with respect to oil is GONE, we are now drilling in deeper, into riskier and more sensitive areas to meet the insatiable appetite for oil&#8230;EXPECT to see more of this. This is not the president's fault, not BPs fault&#8230;it is OUR fault for not changing our consumption habits.
> 
> Big homes, shiny toys, cars, vacations, &#8230;THIS IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.
> 
> Our environment CANNOT take the destruction of more species and the increasing use of non-renewable resources.
> 
> There are many people who are in a state of denial or feel defeated BUT if we all work together to and take personal responsibility to SLOW down. Our grand parents did not need the CRAP we have and they were just as happy!!!
> 
> It is a lie that consuming makes us happier, and will keep us alive.


Your right this is unsustainable but until the tree huggers let us start drilling back on land expect this to happen again. The fact is that if this had happened in Texas, or Alaska, or the Dakotas where there are still vast reserves this would not be nearly as bad.
I believe this country does need a energy policy and better vehicle millage as well as solar and alternatives are a good start. (Good luck getting that done) But the fact is we have enough oil under the north American plate to last us 150 years. The reason we get our oil from overseas is that we want to use theirs first.Did you know the oil running down the Alaska pipeline goes to Japan? Why is a natural resource pumped off of American soil leased to a public company sold in another country? 
No! If we would allow drilling on land this catastrophe may never have happened.


----------



## GraemeInCanada

w1651 said:


> Your right this is unsustainable but until the tree huggers let us start drilling back on land expect this to happen again. The fact is that if this had happened in Texas, or Alaska, or the Dakotas where there are still vast reserves this would not be nearly as bad.


Tree huggers eh? You should lump them in with that derogatory term as you would water drinkers and air breathers, or just "those that care about the environment that these companies destroy". These companies don't and never will care about the environment they destroy for profits. Did you know that your spill in the gulf happens every year in Africa? Doesn't make the news though and in turn they most certainly don't even come close to the response that they've taken now that they are in the lime light.

Not that I have a solution to all this, less consumption is a great start of course, but cutting down those with derogatory terms that are only there to help prohibit what's being dealt with in the gulf there isn't helping at all.


----------



## k1vsk

Graeme
When you fight with a skunk, even when you win, you lose


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## GraemeInCanada

nah.. I've got on my super duper protective cloak, that crap just brushes right off


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## KeelHaulin

OK; let's use the term "environmentalist". The restrictions on offshore drilling (and onshore) have put the oil industry further and further offshore in the Gulf. This is due to the "environmentalists"; restricting oil exploration on the East and West coasts of the USA. In light of the recent failure to quickly stop and prevent widespread damage during this spill and the Ixtoc-I spill; do I want them to drill off of the coast of Northern California? Absolutely not. You see; when you damage the trust of the American public; you end up losing the very support that you had to "drill baby drill".

At some point it will be a necessary requirement to utilize all of our domestic oil sources. I think the biggest reason for not utilizing them now is to protect our reserves until the supplies in the Middle East dry up.

The problem with the environmentalist movement is that they also put us in the position we are now due to stopping the use of nuclear power in the 70's (the evil nuclear power producers). We would not need nearly so much fossil fuel if the bulk of our power generation were nuclear; not coal, gas and oil. Until we change the power grid to nuclear or finish developing fusion energy; we won't have non fossil fuel power source to power all of those Teslas and electric cars that are billed as "green". Solar and wind won't develop nearly enough energy to support the demand.

Unfortunately Obama plans to force the Cap/Trade through (now called the American Power Act) and it will cause "electricity (and fuel) rates to necessarily skyrocket" - in his own words. This thing is devised to either make Obama, Gore, Clinton, and many others (including Goldman Sachs) incredibly rich (since they own/control the carbon "market"); or topple our economy so they can take over the energy industry (which would you prefer?). How are you gonna afford to drive that electric car; or any car when that happens? We are falling further into communism/socialism with every passing day here in America...


----------



## Insails

I really dont trust BP to pay...
It took Exxon 22 years to pay,then they only paid 1/6th of the settlement while the people effected had nothing or died...In the end if someone lost a 60k/year buisness 22 years later they got a whole 15k...

So to stop this type move from BP its time the United States insured payment..

Its nothing for them to freeze your bank account over any criminal charge or for owed monies ...

I say the U.S. takes control of the rest of BPs rigs in the gulf and when they pump enough oil to pay for the damage to the Gulf , then and only then can BP have them back....Then ween them back to them for residual damages until all is payed for....

this is way to costly to too many peoples lives to be tied up in court 22 years...


----------



## GraemeInCanada

KeelHaulin said:


> OK; let's use the term "environmentalist".....


That's a good idea I think. Thanks for reading.



KeelHaulin said:


> We are falling further into communism/socialism with every passing day here in America...


nah.. not even remotely close. The only "socialist" part of your society is to benefit the corporations. Socialist societies are for the benefit of the people not the very few ridiculously rich. You pay to benefit only those that don't need it, not those that do. Can you remember ever bailing out a school? library? public hospital? The things that really matter to society, not Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Citibank etc and GM. You'll never see that come back to society.


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## KeelHaulin

Socailism is government ownership/control of every facet of an economy. It is anti-capitalism. The US government now controls over 50% of our economy due to take-overs of Fannie, Freddie, AIG, GM, Student Loans, and Health Care. Now they want control of the "carbon industry" which means all forms of power; and control of the "green economy" which means production of solar and wind. How can you say this is NOT socialism? The bailouts were a cover for gaining the control/power over the industries!

Next will be "BP is too big to fail".


----------



## GraemeInCanada

I suppose that's one way of looking at it.. I see it closer to imperialism. Government owns everything, very few benefit from it other than the rich and well to do. Money is used to take over other countries not to put back into society. But cripes.. I'm getting out of this conversation while the gettings good!


----------



## nolatom

Has anyone mentioned what the 6-month moratorium on any drilling, planned or in progress, on any well in over 500 feet of water, is going to do to the Louisiana economy? They have to submit their shutdown plans today.

Thanks a lot for the gift of layoffs, hit us once by accident is bad enough, now hit us again on purpose, why don't you. I'm sure it sounds great politically, but those who seem to love it don't have to live with the consequence as we do here.


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## Insails

agree there nola,we are paying enough...

now they want (out of anger)to repeal tax breaks which means all oil goes up and you and I end up paying once again ....I wonder how many times we will pay for this spill before BP does?


----------



## KeelHaulin

Don't forget about the Gaza blockade situation; if that turns in to a middle east war we may also be looking at increased OPEC prices. With just the issue of the spill they were looking at the possibility of gas going up to $5/gallon. With production shutdowns due to safety concerns about oil slick fires and drilling shutdowns who knows where the price will end up.

I agree that an exploration shutdown is about the stupidest thing that they can do right now. How about DOING YOUR JOB FEDS! I'd like to know where they get the authority to shut down the operations that were already given permits to drill. It's just another attempt to cause an industry to crash/fail and then for the government to "bail out" the companies and gain more control over what WAS a FREE market.

This is all being done so once Cap&Trade is in place the price increases will carry over to the carbon tax. I can see it coming; we will be paying $3.00/gallon for carbon tax in addition to the base price of gas.


----------



## w1651

Let me be Clear ! 
I am not a environmentalist but with everything there has to be balance. What I am saying is that there are more advantages to drilling on land then on the sea bed. And the reduced risks are just one. If the words tree hugger offended I Apologise humbly. I did not want to offend anyone and I am Sorry!. 
With that said I do want clean water to drink, I want clean air to breathe, I want the hootie owl to have a habitat. But I also want drilling on land, loggers to have jobs, the power companies to have nuke plants. And YES I WANT THEM REGULATED AND INSPECTED PROPERLY WITHOUT PARTIALITY TOO! 
But everything in balance. We cannot drill in the ocean and not expect some problems I agree, however this is more then a problem and this reeks of incompetence and corner cutting at every level. 
We can have wells on land and still be clean about it. We can have nuke power and cheaply at that. We can cut lumber and have trees for the hootie owl. And We should also invest in Solar and clean energy. 

Hey here's an idea. Let's stop giving all our billions to the world and start spending it at home on the things this country needs. And let's stop shipping our oil over seas and use it here. Let's start worrying about jobs in our own country and not the rest of the Bloody World.


----------



## Insails

This wont just be a Gulf event...






The story:
Gulf oil spill could reach Atlantic coast and beyond, study suggests | NOLA.com


----------



## KeelHaulin

Yeah; it's only a matter of time. The question is how much is in the water column and what will the effects be on the sealife? Will the oil/dispersant mix cause more widespread damage to sensitive areas like the reefs off of south Florida than if it had been surface oil and allowed to wash ashore?


----------



## MMR

Hmmm. That graphic is strangely...hockey stick shaped......


----------



## Insails

difference is this OIL is already here and growing....The currents to carry it will only strengthen as the water heats up...

Global warming has NOTHING to do with this...Apples and Oranges


----------



## MMR

Was not implying that Global Warming was responsible, only remarking that the prediction models show startling similarities of shape.

Another possible cleanup option...Gulf Oil Spill Supertanker Solution - BP Ignoring Secret Saudi Supertankers? - Esquire


----------



## Insails

Now for a real forecast for saturday...

Good bye Gulf Beaches.....
http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/book_shelf/2115_TMF72-2010-06-02-2100.pdf


----------



## Insails

and now the florida keys...

So it is in the loop current the predictions for the East Coast become clearer
Coast Guard investigates 'oily substance' reports in Florida Keys as models show loop current taking spill to East Coast | al.com

CD hope you and your family made the Keys,they will change soon..

This is what follows


----------



## ROSA

I must say that it truly sickens me to watch the current news photos. That said, so many continue to argue for the oil industry. That sickens me even more.

In time, even the most staunch supporters of the industry will curse themselves for not demanding change long ago. If this is allowed to continue there will be no more pristine anchorages, clear water, coral reefs, etc., and therefore no reason to sail to them. Those things are what motivate us all to go to sea in the first place.

Only the most foolish continue to s _ _ t where they eat!

All of the oil ever pumped, or to be pumped, from the GOM, or any other beautiful place, is not worth the life of one sea bird, dolphin, let alone one human.

I really do not expect many to agree with me yet!


----------



## nolatom

I agree with your paragraph 5 regarding your paragraph 4..


----------



## ROSA

Thank You Tom! That is the very reason for YET. But time has a way of bring us around.


----------



## ericread

Well said ROSA. It is a crime, that became a disaster, and that is clearly becoming a tragedy.

Eric


----------



## k1vsk

It's nice to be idealistic, however, the unfortunate reality is that since we are not about to give up every benefit we derive from petroleum production including it's derivatives, exploration, drilling and production is, and will always be, more important to us than "one sea bird or dolphin". No amount of diligence, regulation or technology will prevent more spills in the future. What is more important is that you already know that!

What many of us fail to appreciate is why some so vehemently criticize this spill but never utter a peep about all the rest throughout the world -


----------



## knothead

Rosa, I bet there will be change. There will be a lot of new regulations and rules. There will be a lot of posturing and pontificating. But until you and I are willing to give up our cars and our air conditioners and our refrigerators, there will be a need for oil. 
I wish there were viable, affordable alternatives but there aren't. YET. 

I bought a bunch of used food grade plastic drums last year and installed a 500 gallon rain catchment system this winter. 
I have been using a composting toilet for the last six months. 
I have been composting or converting into biochar every single bit of biomass that grows on my property. 
I have asked my neighbors to save their kitchen scraps for my compost piles and my earthworm farms. 
I cook most nights of the week on my TLUD stove in my back yard. This produces biochar and doesn't add heat to my dwelling. 

What does any of this have to do with anything? 

This;
I am doing what I can. Those things listed above are things that are within my power to do. Little ways that I can make little differences. 
Hell, most of my friends think I've gone off the deep end in my attempt to live in balance with nature. 

But I still need to drive to work every day. 
I still need to store food and cool the house. (Although the AC is never set below 80).
If I could afford to I would have solar panels all over my roof, wind generators all over my yard and would be driving a solar powered vehicle. But I can't afford it. 

I would love to live in a world that didn't need to drill holes in the earth to bleed it of it's oil. But this is the world I was born into 50 some odd years ago and I can only do what I can to improve the situation. And for me that's to think outside of the box a little and do the little things that might save a little power or a little water or that adds nutrients back into the soil. 
Little steps. Little steps.

If you have given up your gas powered vehicles and have given up the conveniences that have become so much a part of our lives. Especially in this country. Then more power to you. I haven't figured out a way to do that and still stay married. 

I do however understand the outrage that you and other are expressing. I share in feeling that outrage. 
At the same time, I know that I have been and remain a part of the problem. I've always liked driving. I like cold beer and fresh food. I like air-conditioning, I like living like a spoiled American. 

We didn't get here over night and we won't change over night. 
Little steps. Little steps.


----------



## ROSA

knothead said:


> Rosa, I bet there will be change. There will be a lot of new regulations and rules. There will be a lot of posturing and pontificating. But until you and I are willing to give up our cars and our air conditioners and our refrigerators, there will be a need for oil.
> I wish there were viable, affordable alternatives but there aren't. YET.
> 
> I bought a bunch of used food grade plastic drums last year and installed a 500 gallon rain catchment system this winter.
> I have been using a composting toilet for the last six months.
> I have been composting or converting into biochar every single bit of biomass that grows on my property.
> I have asked my neighbors to save their kitchen scraps for my compost piles and my earthworm farms.
> I cook most nights of the week on my TLUD stove in my back yard. This produces biochar and doesn't add heat to my dwelling.
> 
> What does any of this have to do with anything?
> 
> This;
> I am doing what I can. Those things listed above are things that are within my power to do. Little ways that I can make little differences.
> Hell, most of my friends think I've gone off the deep end in my attempt to live in balance with nature.
> 
> But I still need to drive to work every day.
> I still need to store food and cool the house. (Although the AC is never set below 80).
> If I could afford to I would have solar panels all over my roof, wind generators all over my yard and would be driving a solar powered vehicle. But I can't afford it.
> 
> I would love to live in a world that didn't need to drill holes in the earth to bleed it of it's oil. But this is the world I was born into 50 some odd years ago and I can only do what I can to improve the situation. And for me that's to think outside of the box a little and do the little things that might save a little power or a little water or that adds nutrients back into the soil.
> Little steps. Little steps.
> 
> If you have given up your gas powered vehicles and have given up the conveniences that have become so much a part of our lives. Especially in this country. Then more power to you. I haven't figured out a way to do that and still stay married.
> 
> I do however understand the outrage that you and other are expressing. I share in feeling that outrage.
> At the same time, I know that I have been and remain a part of the problem. I've always liked driving. I like cold beer and fresh food. I like air-conditioning, I like living like a spoiled American.
> 
> We didn't get here over night and we won't change over night.
> Little steps. Little steps.


I, like most cannot find a way at this time to do many things to make a major difference. I do find myself with a higher level of consciousness as I go through my day, and try to act accordingly if possible.

You seem to have found a way to do the same in small steps. Can you imagine if most people just applied some of your conduct to their lives. You apparently have made a difference in the way you think. I will try to apply some of those things to my life. Thank You!


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## KeelHaulin

knothead said:


> I cook most nights of the week on my TLUD stove in my back yard. This produces biochar and doesn't add heat to my dwelling.


I hate to tell you this; but use of natural gas, propane, or electricity (from an efficient coal-fired powerplant) is way, way less pollutive than burning wood or wood pellets to cook. Not to mention the health concerns of cooking over wood on a daily basis. When you burn wood or pellets you produce particulate matter and carbon monoxide; in addition to the CO2. I would switch over to mulching or composting your stove fuel.


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## knothead

KeelHaulin said:


> I hate to tell you this; but use of natural gas, propane, or electricity (from an efficient coal-fired powerplant) is way, way less pollutive than burning wood or wood pellets to cook. Not to mention the health concerns of cooking over wood on a daily basis. When you burn wood or pellets you produce particulate matter and carbon monoxide; in addition to the CO2. I would switch over to mulching or composting your stove fuel.


Google Top lit up draft stove.


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## ROSA

KeelHaulin said:


> I hate to tell you this; but use of natural gas, propane, or electricity (from an efficient coal-fired powerplant) is way, way less pollutive than burning wood or wood pellets to cook. Not to mention the health concerns of cooking over wood on a daily basis. When you burn wood or pellets you produce particulate matter and carbon monoxide; in addition to the CO2. I would switch over to mulching or composting your stove fuel.


Well, I just had to look up what a TLUD stove was, interesting. You are probalbly right also, but no extra heat in the house is important too.

We have done much better in the boat with solar, wind and LEDs than we have in the house, and driving is a must. Do bike and walk and BBQ when we can to keep the heat out.


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## knothead

ROSA said:


> Well, I just had to look up what a TLUD stove was, interesting. You are probalbly right also, but no extra heat in the house is important too.
> 
> We have done much better in the boat with solar, wind and LEDs than we have in the house, and driving is a must. Do bike and walk and BBQ out doors when we can to keep the heat out.


No, he is not right. The beauty of the TLUD is that it gasifies the material by the process of pyrolysis and is actually carbon negative.


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## KeelHaulin

No; it's not carbon negative. It's "considered" carbon negative because you end up with charcoal. That does not mean that there was not a chemical reaction that released gasses and particulate matter. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with what you are doing (tilling carbon back in to your garden); but to say it results in less pollution is a bit misleading. There are still emissions related to the pyrolysis and I don't think tars, particulates, and methanes are things you want to be breathing in every day when you cook dinner.


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## knothead

KeelHaulin said:


> No; it's not carbon negative. It's "considered" carbon negative because you end up with charcoal. That does not mean that there was not a chemical reaction that released gasses and particulate matter. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with what you are doing (tilling carbon back in to your garden); but to say it results in less pollution is a bit misleading. There are still emissions related to the pyrolysis and I don't think tars, particulates, and methanes are things you want to be breathing in every day when you cook dinner.


Keel, I'm no scientist so I can only go by what I read. And I've read just about everything on the subject that I can find. 
 
"Design with the correct secondary air flow ensures
near-stoichiometric combustion that allows attainment of peak combustion temperatures with accompanying
high water boiling efficiencies (up to 50% for vessels of practical relevance) and very
low emissions (of carbon monoxide, particulate matter and oxides of nitrogen)."

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/10mar2010/627.pdf

"Paul's TLUD stoves have been tested and shown to produce very low emissions of CO and particulates."

5 Gallon (22-liter) TLUD Stove for Biochar | BioEnergy Lists: BioChar (or Terra Preta)

"Recognized as a "carbon neutral" initiative; In fact would be "carbon negative" when the charcoal is dumped back into the soil."

TLUD Gasifier Stoves - A wood stove with a difference | Servals Automation Pvt Ltd

This last site has a chart at the bottom that shows carbon monoxide and particulate matter emissions for various stoves, but it's so small I can't read it. 

I don't mean to hijack this thread. But I think this is relevant and important. Perhaps less so for the developed world, but the technology could potentially save many lives in the third world. As well as improving crop yields and improving soil fertility and sustainability.


"Respiratory infections caused by smoke from indoor cooking fires common in the Third World could be reduced drastically through the use of inexpensive, more efficient stoves and modestly cleaner fuels, according to researchers at the University of California, Berkeley, and Princeton University who monitored illness and pollution levels for three years in a Kenyan village."

University of California - UC Newsroom | Reducing Respiratory Illness from Indoor Cooking Fires in Third World


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## KeelHaulin

You just made my point. You can't apply THIRD WORLD SCENARIOS to our first world way of life. Just because it's cleaner than burning wood in a standard fire does not mean it's cleaner than burning natural gas or use of electricity. These TLUD stoves (etc) are being developed to reduce emissions in 3'rd world nations where they don't have power/gas infrastructure and appliances are cost prohibitive. In comparison to a standard cooking fire a TLUD stove is carbon negative; but ONLY in comparison to cooking over a campfire. This is where so many "greenies" get it in their head that they are doing something good for the environment; when really they are going backwards with respect to the developed world.

The burning of wood relative to natural gas or coal is not carbon neutral or negative. You still have utilized a carbon based fuel source to produce thermal energy and BTU for BTU the energy consumed is the same. The difference is that a TLUD stove or similar device has combustion products that are worse for you than the CO2 and H2O that comes off of a gas stove. The combustion products are Tars (creosotes); H2, and methane or formaldehyde (if oxygen is restricted too much). Tars are very bad for your health over the long term; and if your TLUD stove it not burning the methane (reducing it to CO2) it is 25x worse as a greenhouse gas than CO2 (atom for atom).

If you burn your TLUD stove; you can measure how much carbon you emitted by weighing the wood before burning and the charcoal after. The difference in weight is roughly the amount of CO2/tars/methanes you produced or emitted. Remember, the earth has vast quantities of methane trapped in the crust; and if we don't use it for fuel it will vent into the atmosphere at some point anyway; and methane molecules are 25x worse than CO2 (which is why environmentalists are also against livestock consumption).


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## GraemeInCanada

KeelHaulin said:


> (which is why environmentalists are also against livestock consumption).


No they're not, that's just silly to propose. I realize there are some out there that do say something like that but it's not a sustainable idea. The thought process is much more that they would like to see much more sustainable practices and less production as there are far too many people that waste food. We don't need to have so many animals for consumption and it is much healthier to cut down the amount of red meat that is consumed.

Agreed on the stove though.. burning wood pellets in that particular stove is very efficient and has it's merits but is definitely not carbon neutral. You're still burning something, putting off toxins in the air. Not to mention the production of it, delivery (in bags made of oil for the most part) and the whole manufacturing process.

I get it though, it's pretty good and seems kind of attractive for a BBQ rather than straight charcoal or briquettes.

I see the spill has reached Florida now and will be heading up the east coast and probably south to the northern areas of cuba and all those nice little islands down that way.. what a shame. That's somewhere I would have really liked to go.


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## w1651

Ya we're screwed now. The radio has been reporting all day about the oil getting to Pensacola. Let the fun begin. 
I'm sure glad no one is dragging their feet on this.


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## Insails

The smell is awful here on the Alabama coast...takes your breathe away


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## KeelHaulin

GraemeInCanada said:


> No they're not, that's just silly to propose. I realize there are some out there that do say something like that but it's not a sustainable idea. The thought process is much more that they would like to see much more sustainable practices and less production as there are far too many people that waste food. We don't need to have so many animals for consumption and it is much healthier to cut down the amount of red meat that is consumed.


I'm not the one proposing it. All we ever hear from the vegans and environmentalists is that cattle and other livestock produce large quantities of methane and the methane is much worse for the environment than the CO2. They consider the consumption of beef, swine, and milk "unsustainable" for these reasons and the volume of grain resources required to produce the beef, swine, and milk. (not that the human population is unsustainable at 7 billion as it continues to grow exponentially). It does not matter so much whether we eat red meat, swine, dairy, chicken, or fish; it's the fact that there are 7 billion of us that need sustenance. That's a big reason why vegans promote eating nothing but fruits, veggies, grains, nuts; because it's the lowest net impact to the environment, and considered sustainable.



> Agreed on the stove though.. burning wood pellets in that particular stove is very efficient and has it's merits but is definitely not carbon neutral. You're still burning something, putting off toxins in the air. Not to mention the production of it, delivery (in bags made of oil for the most part) and the whole manufacturing process.
> 
> I get it though, it's pretty good and seems kind of attractive for a BBQ rather than straight charcoal or briquettes.


As I said before; it's more about what you are emitting. Burning natural gas results in CO2 and water. That's as clean as it gets. If your NG stove is properly adjusted that's about as clean and efficient as you can be. I don't know about the safety aspects of cooking over an open fire of wood pellets; it might be fine, or it could be very bad depending on what the pellets are comprised of. Charcoals have had most of the tars and aromatics burned off; so it might be safer in terms of carcinogens transferred to the food. But barbecue is also known to be a source of oral, throat, lung, and stomach cancers if you consume it daily; regardless of the fuel source (a gas grill might be a bit safer but I don't know). That's not to say I don't like charcoal BBQ food...


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## Insails

we dont need to worry about the grill....
I am sure the benzine in the vapors from this oil spill will kill way more here on the coast than BBQ....

Confirmed...oil on the Gulf Beaches at Gulf Shoars ,Al..









story:
Now confirmed: Oil's washing ashore at Baldwin County beaches (photos) | al.com


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## knothead

KeelHaulin said:


> You just made my point. You can't apply THIRD WORLD SCENARIOS to our first world way of life. Just because it's cleaner than burning wood in a standard fire does not mean it's cleaner than burning natural gas or use of electricity. These TLUD stoves (etc) are being developed to reduce emissions in 3'rd world nations where they don't have power/gas infrastructure and appliances are cost prohibitive. In comparison to a standard cooking fire a TLUD stove is carbon negative; but ONLY in comparison to cooking over a campfire. This is where so many "greenies" get it in their head that they are doing something good for the environment; when really they are going backwards with respect to the developed world.
> 
> The burning of wood relative to natural gas or coal is not carbon neutral or negative. You still have utilized a carbon based fuel source to produce thermal energy and BTU for BTU the energy consumed is the same. The difference is that a TLUD stove or similar device has combustion products that are worse for you than the CO2 and H2O that comes off of a gas stove. The combustion products are Tars (creosotes); H2, and methane or formaldehyde (if oxygen is restricted too much). Tars are very bad for your health over the long term; and if your TLUD stove it not burning the methane (reducing it to CO2) it is 25x worse as a greenhouse gas than CO2 (atom for atom).
> 
> If you burn your TLUD stove; you can measure how much carbon you emitted by weighing the wood before burning and the charcoal after. The difference in weight is roughly the amount of CO2/tars/methanes you produced or emitted. Remember, the earth has vast quantities of methane trapped in the crust; and if we don't use it for fuel it will vent into the atmosphere at some point anyway; and methane molecules are 25x worse than CO2 (which is why environmentalists are also against livestock consumption).


Why can't I apply THIRD WORLD SCENARIOS to our first world way of life? I don't know about you, but I like fires. I enjoy barbecuing. I like campfires and cookouts on the beach. If I weren't using the highly efficient tlud stove, I would still be burning stuff. Only with a lot more smoke. 
And I learned very early in life not to stand directly downwind from a fire anyway.

I never claimed that the tlud is as clean as natural gas or propane just that they are very efficient and if the biochar is returned to the soil, it is a carbon negative way to cook and enjoy a fire. 
I never buy fuel to burn in the stove as it will cleanly burn any dry bio mass that's available. Even newspaper. I don't expect to ever run out of fuel. Stuff grows faster than I can burn it. 
BTW, from what I understand, even composting produces greenhouse gases. Burning biomass instead of composting it is less harmful to the environment than composting it as long as the bio char is returned to the soil.

Seriously, if you haven't tried it or at least researched it a little, don't knock it. 
But don't worry, I still use electricity too. Just a bit less than I used to. Which is good for the wallet.


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## KeelHaulin

knothead said:


> Why can't I apply THIRD WORLD SCENARIOS to our first world way of life? I don't know about you, but I like fires. I enjoy barbecuing. I like campfires and cookouts on the beach. If I weren't using the highly efficient tlud stove, I would still be burning stuff. Only with a lot more smoke. And I learned very early in life not to stand directly downwind from a fire anyway.


I enjoy a fire now and then too; but I don't use it for my sole source of heat and cooking. I don't mind people burning wood. I'm not afraid of a whiff of smoke. I don't agree with the regulations that exist where I live to prohibit burning firewood due to a predicted "poor air quality index". That's a form of environmental extremism and people imposing their environmental beliefs on the freedoms of others. If I could afford a highly efficient and clean burning pellet stove I would buy one; but they are very expensive and the pellets are costly by comparison to firewood in the wood stove I already have.



> I never claimed that the tlud is as clean as natural gas or propane just that they are very efficient and if the biochar is returned to the soil, it is a carbon negative way to cook and enjoy a fire.


In the context of TLUD vs an open wood fire; it is more efficient. But your statement was regarding use of a TLUD vs. your in-home stove and that is where I would say that your stove is cleaner and more efficient; regardless of if you return bio-char to the soil. I can see where one would say that burying the bio-char is carbon-negative; but the reality is that you still utilize a carbon based fuel source for heat and the thermal energy you utilize is the same as if you had used methane. A landfill composed of vegetation (shredded wood and clippings) is more carbon negative; and has the added benefit of providing clean burning methane if captured. The chinese have utilized pig dung for thousands of years for methane burning stoves. Which of these three processes is more environmentally friendly? I'd say that TLUD is the least of the three; but of course it is much better than burning an open fire, and more socially acceptable than keeping pigs and shoveling dung into a fermentation tank.

My comments were to point out the flaw in the belief that wood burning cook-stoves (pyrolytic) are more efficient or clean than natural gas. There is nothing wrong with using one; I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong. I'm pointing out some of the drawbacks and that you only recycle about 1/3 of the carbon in what you burn; and there are emissions that are not "clean".

The only truly carbon negative device is something which does not utilize any form of carbon combustion to generate heat. That brings us back to solar, wind, hydro-electric, or nuclear. Of these the one you could use as a low-technology based replacement would be a solar oven.


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## nolatom

It's a stove thread now?


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## KeelHaulin

Sorry; I was trying to point out that there is a "lesser of two evils".

The lesser of two evils on the oil spill was to burn the oil off but BP was told specifically not to do it (over concerns related to "global warming").

What I don't understand about the latest attempt is why the heck don't they just bolt a valve onto that flange that is just below the cut? Seems like it would be a simple operation to remove the existing flange; bolt a small riser onto the BOP, and then install a gate valve.


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## kd3pc

burn was a good idea, but the powers that be, ignorant of the facts...said no. How burning this fuel now or in the future, once refined affects climate change is beyond me, but we won't go there. Hindsight, would prove that it would be the lesser evil to burn off as much as practical.

I would forward the same thought about dispersant. I think they will find/have found that the cure was/is worse than the disease..they are likely far more toxic to a wider area than the crude being released.

Were this well head on the surface, it would be easy to attach, cut or cap...at 5K feet and with the pressures and chemistry involved, it is not an option...but we can't agree on the pressure, flow, etc so there is no point in going there.

Robots are good, but not that good that they can equally loosen the appropriate bolts/nuts the appropriate amount all at the same time, without the flange/hub exploding and making things worse.

Sadly the reality is that this has likely moved from a short term fix to the long term accidental disaster that no one was prepared for. And the even longer cleanup, if it will be done at all.

Good news - Mother Nature is a ***** and may take this in stride, but that should not stop us from weaning off this, as we should have done in the 70's. 

As I am in my mid 50's, it is high time that this Gov't allows and encourages the development of alternate fuel, and I don't mean turning our food in to fuel...or subsidizing fossil fuels...we still need to eat worse than we need to drive and we need clean water worse than both of those.. It Will not happen in my life time (we have done effectively nothing so far, so I am not optimistic that we will in the short term) but I hope our college kids demand that alternatives be created, and that the development not be hampered by cap and trade, politics, eco terrorism, partisanship, etc, etc that so often hampers creativity and exploration today.

This is serious, this president should move his entourage to the Gulf and get over the photo ops/politicing and it should be mission number one UNTIL it is capped, cleaned up and future drilling managed appropriately..again not likely to happen as he does not understand the serious affect this is having and will have on the southern states. Not another dime spent on anything until this is resolved.


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## knothead

nolatom said:


> It's a stove thread now?


Not at all, I instigated the digression in the process of speaking to the issue of why we are still dependent on oil. The subject of the thread.
I was simply pointing out that the only real power we have to change things is in our own lives.

Sure, there are going to be lots of lawsuits, recriminations and regulations resulting from this tragedy. There will be hearings and hand wringing and fines.
And then everything will continue as usual.

The only real way of changing big things is by doing little things. Trying out some new ideas and thinking outside the box a little. Things like using a TLUD instead of the Weber once in a while. Or setting up a rain catchment system. Using dry toilets and composting. Or any of a million little things.

I didn't see the harm in talking about it as there is only so much news about the oil spill that we can talk about. I thought it might nudge the conversation in a more positive direction.

Keel, Did you look at any of the links I provided in my previous post? 
I make all my stoves out of old cans. I am using a couple feet of mast section for one of my chimneys and an old piece of cast iron pipe for another, but I haven't paid a dime for anything.
Fuel is as abundant as one's imagination.

I never stated that I was trying to replace my indoor stove with my backyard TLUD. However in the case of an emergency, I'm probably going to be pretty well prepared for living without electricity or water.

I never stated that the TLUD was cleaner than gas. However it's probably a lot closer than you think and it's much more efficient than a normal wood burning stove or fireplace.

I agree that a landfill composed of vegetation, basicly a big compost pile, is more carbon negative, but only if the methane is captured. Most people don't have the means to do that in their backyard. And if you don't capture the methane, it's more carbon negative to burn the stuff in your TLUD. Everything has it's place. 
Which brings us back to the whole 'living in balance' thing.


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## k1vsk

kd3pc said:


> burn was a good idea, but the powers that be, ignorant of the facts...said no. How burning this fuel now or in the future, once refined affects climate change is beyond me, but we won't go there. Hindsight, would prove that it would be the lesser evil to burn off as much as practical.


Burning of oil spills has been tried throughout the world numerous times always with the same result - that being the circumstances and type oil limit it's efficacy. Too much burn agent is required to overcome the enormous heat sink of the ocean to sustain the burn resulting in excessive use of burn agents with little benefit. It is also not effective on light or crude oil spills because the slick thins out so quickly so as to exacerbate the heat sink effect which extinguishes the fire.

The only conditions in which burning has been effective is with fresh #4 or #6 oil after it collects, usually on shore. As that is also where people tend to live, the objectionable cloud of smoke makes it impractical there as well.

Add that to the pretty pictures of billowing smoke inevitably plastered all over the news make burning agent use unacceptable.


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## KeelHaulin

Yes; I looked at the links. All several of them refer to LPG or NG stoves as ideally efficient at 60-70% efficiency. The TLUD is used as a replacement for an inefficient cookstove in countries like India where bio-waste is the primary fuel source for cooking. Americans may be forced back to using campfires with philosophies like this:

5 Gallon (22-liter) TLUD Stove for Biochar | BioEnergy Lists: BioChar (or Terra Preta)


> (the 5-gallon TLUD stove could) ..."potentially provide a source of income through carbon credits."


So we will start paying India and China and the rest of the 3'rd world to use these devices? Trillions of exported dollars because they use a less efficient device that "sequesters carbon"??

The most efficient; highly engineered unit shown in the current science article was showing 50-60% thermal efficiency. It does not matter if you sequester carbon as char or if you send your green clippings to a landfill. While you will cut down fuel costs by using a TLUD; I still don't buy in to the "sequestering carbon" claim. You burn the same amount of fuel (actually more than LPG); you are just utilizing a different source/form. If you had buried the wood you would have sequestered more carbon than if you had burned it and made charcoal. Breakdown of vegetation by decay is a natural process. The capture of released methane from landfill is utilization of the natural release of methane. How much methane is coming out of the earth's rainforests?

The concerns over climate change are being proven wrong and the "hockey stick" graph showing exponential warming was a hoax. What creates global cooling? Mainly catastrophic impacts of comets, asteroids, and massive volcano eruptions. There is also evidence that there is a self-correction point where once the earth reaches a certain mean temperature there is a cooling effect due to increased cloud cover as more water evaporates. There was a time in the history of the planet where there was too much plant life (no land animals yet) and oxygen levels got too high due to the plants creating oxygen. What happened? The entire planet burned. In the long term, planet will be fine. It has flourished despite these "attacks" on it.

Here's a good take on it (we need some comic relief):


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## Ruachsspirit

I have changed from anger to praying, that the well-head cap works perfect until they get a permanent fix. 
BP needs to stay in business for a generation in order to keep paying *ALL* those effected by this catastrophe. Exxon Valdez still has court problems.


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## Dirtboy

I honestly expect to see it in my backyard before summers end. The prospect of success with these long-shot's they've been trying is slim. It won't suprise me if this thing gushes 'till August when the relief wells are scheduled to be done.  

Never lived in a "dead zone" before.

DB


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## Insails

for us on the north central gulf coast..The oil is here on the beach at gulf Shoars..The dead fish are here,the dead birds..The dead zone is not pretty and this stuff has a foul stinch..I hope all the apologist for the oil companies could come here see the death and breathe this crap...I think what makes it worse is all the lies to cover ass by ALL envolved...and any agency ,politician or media that helped cover this should be brought up on criminal charges...
You can bet the Gulf States will push for it...If the feds dont do it the states will...we are sick of the lies and apologist with stock in BP makeing excuses..That simple, and that is what is happening and why you are not seeing the truth. Tempers are high and so is the anger here. It will get ugly if the lies and the ban on the media continues....this spill is not an ostrich as BP is trying to make it...It can't just stick its head in the sand and say its not happening....


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## knothead

KeelHaulin said:


> If you had buried the wood you would have sequestered more carbon than if you had burned it and made charcoal.


That's the part that I don't think you quite get. If you bury the wood it quickly decomposes and is converted to gas and food for microorganisms. If you bury the biochar from the same piece of wood, it remains there, sequestered for centuries. That's what makes it carbon negative.


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## ericread

So at this point, can we all agree that the people yelling "Drill Baby Drill" were really as ignorant as it seemed they were?

The last administration worked hard to gut regulatory oversight, by either reducing the regulatory agency budgets or firing anyone that provided evidence that the policies advanced by that administration were fraught with risk. Then we had the Tea Partiers that claimed we should get government off our backs. 

Seemingly, we got exactly what we asked for. The "Free Market" is doing exactly what we should expect them to do, which is drilling at depths in which they have no ability to stem an unexpected event. 

As such, the "Free Market" supporters and "Tea Partiers" really have no right to add any criticisms of this tragedy. Big Oil only did what was asked of them.... Which is nothing at all.


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## Insails

I think this is both parties fault...all the sleezy politicians were out for their interest and not the poeples interest that elected them..."Drill Baby Drill" is not as bad as the other side now saying "Spill baby Spill " to prove a point. Thats downright disgusting especially if you live on the Gulf to hear fellow Americans want us to have harm for their parties political agenda...

BP is at fault by bribing MMS ...That simple there were rules and BP and crooked politicians on BOTH sides went around them...

Time to forget the partisian poltics and fix the damn leak!


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## kd3pc

"Time to forget the partisian poltics and fix the damn leak!"

well said and an Amen! from this corner...


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## bb32

"Only when the last tree has died and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught will we realise - we cannot eat money."
Cree Indian Proverb


"What does a man need ---really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in --and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all --in the material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention from the sheer idiocy of the charade. The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed. Where then lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be, bankruptcy of purse or bankrutpcy of life?"

Sterling Hayden


THE SLOOPS OF THE HUDSON

INTRODUCTION
The book that inspired the building of the Sloop Clearwater In the early 1960's, Vic ScHwartz of Cold Spring, friend, commercial artist, and American history buff, told me that the Hudson once bad many huge sloops, some with a boom as long as "70 feet? I can't believe that." Vic loaned me a tattered copy of "Sloops of the Hudson," written by William Verplanck and Moses Collyer (Putnam, 1908). I read it through in a night.
Sloops of the Hudson may not have been great literature, but it was (and is) a fine little book. It inspired me one cold January night in 1966 to sit up until 3 a.m. typing a seven-page single-spaced letter to Vic. "Why don't we get a few hundred families together and build a life-size Hudson River sloop?" .
The idea was about as practical as a plan to build a canoe to paddle to Tahiti. In early spring, Vie Schwartz called me on the phone. I still remember our conversation clearly.
"Hey, Pete. When are we going to start building that sloop?"
"You must be kidding," I replied.
"No. I've been talking it up on the commuter train. I passed your letter around and we got a dozen people raring to go. "
I'd say the rest was history, except things like this don't happen without a lot of planning, organization, and commitment. And at the time, it seemed like a frivolous idea. The world was full of agony, the Vietnam conflict was heating up. Money was needed for all sorts of life-and-death matters. There we were, planning to build a sailboat.
It must have been an idea that was meant to take on a life of its own. In June an organizational meeting was held at the home of Alexander Sanders near Cold Spring; 150 people attended. i sang a few songs; someone passed a bat; $167 was raised. At that meeting, officers were elected to initiate the sloop project.

At our second or third meeting, we met at the home of a wealthy Hudson River resident who could have paid for the entire boat himself. He studied our proposed designs and said, "It's a beautiful boat, all right. But why do you want to sail the Hudson? I sail the Virgin Islands myself."

My fingers clenched in anger, but I didn't say anything. He had just given us our best reason for building the boat. Cleaning up a river was a cause worth fighting for. Just as absentee land-lords had ruined Europe's villages, so had we allowed some people to make a profit from the Hudson, after which they went somewhere else to enjoy clear water. 

At the same meeting we made a decision to go public. It was a more far-reaching policy decision than any of us realized. The Clearwater would be everybody's boat.
On a bright sunny day in South Bristol, Maine the Clearwater was launched. Over 2,000 people crowded the Gamage Shipyard and dock on May 17, 1969. To those of us who bad been raising money for three years, it seemed like a miracle. The governor of Maine was there, as were many rank and file Maine citizens, young and old. Sloop members laid out a magnificent spread of home-made food, on tables. Several busloads of school children from Newburgh and other Hudson Valley towns helped smash a bottle of Hudson River Valley champagne on the bow. The crowd sang "This Land is Your Land" as the 100-ton bull slid into the water with a splash. It was a great day.

Pete Seeger


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## hanleyclifford

The solution is clear. Hang a big decompression chamber under a big nuclear submarine - send it down to the site, and like the Fonz said, "sit on it".


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## sailguy40

Hi people, thought I would share this here. I had recently posted a comment on this guy's youtube video, believe it or not he is a sailor. Notice what I posted... my name is 'warspite2' and how he responded. I am totally shocked. I mean here is someone who is sailing in the beautiful gulf and he acts as if he just don't care that BP knew about safety issues but continued to drill and that lead to the explosion. Ruining our gulf, ruining our beaches and islands, killing 11 of their employees, killing several hundred wildlife, ruining Louisiana's coast. Seriously, what is wrong with the very few people who say this kind of stuff that this guy says here? Go ahead and check it out. Also remember this guy is a sailor...

YouTube - Sailing to Horn Island MS, pt. 1

Oh and I am glad he got to sail to horn island and see it. I will never see it as it was.


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## Insails

10 to 1 he never grew up on the gulf and works for an oil company that bought his boat...He will just move on .. He is not a sailor but a boater...How any sailor could not give a crap about the water he sails on speaks volumes..He is a boater for ego and materialism otherwise he would have had the sails up...)


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## Insails

BP is not paying...and they are not cleaning either
Orange beach condo manager says BP told him to clean up oil himself (with video) | al.com

Time to sieze their assets as they would do any other criminal...


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## w1651

sailguy40 said:


> Hi people, thought I would share this here. I had recently posted a comment on this guy's youtube video, believe it or not he is a sailor. Notice what I posted... my name is 'warspite2' and how he responded. I am totally shocked. I mean here is someone who is sailing in the beautiful gulf and he acts as if he just don't care that BP knew about safety issues but continued to drill and that lead to the explosion. Ruining our gulf, ruining our beaches and islands, killing 11 of their employees, killing several hundred wildlife, ruining Louisiana's coast. Seriously, what is wrong with the very few people who say this kind of stuff that this guy says here? Go ahead and check it out. Also remember this guy is a sailor...
> 
> YouTube - Sailing to Horn Island MS, pt. 1
> 
> Oh and I am glad he got to sail to horn island and see it. I will never see it as it was.


Also remember this guy is a sailor...

That's funny because I didn't see one sail unfurled. Nough Said!


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## BigEasy1

I am not casting blame at this point in time. I have been a proponent of drilling for years; we are a petroleum based economy and will need oil for years to come. My beef is that there are millions of gallons of oil in the gulf and NO ONE is talking about getting the stuff out of the water. Containment boom, dispersants, and workers picking up tar balls off the beach isn't scratching the surface of the problem. This stuff is getting into LA wetlands where it can't be cleaned. Check out these slides to see what's really going on. If resources aren't directed to cleaning up the oil before it reaches shore, our entire wetland eco system will be destroyed. http://www.wwltv/news/slideshows/Birds-drenched-in-oil-near-Grand-Terre-Island


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## Insails

I agree Big Easy, we need oil but we need honest oil companies until we find an alternative..BP has lied to us from Day 1...When they are done in the gulf its time to revoke all of BP's leases and grant them to a company that will be above the board and honest...These guys need criminal sentences and not in no Country Club Jails but our state prisons from the states they lied to.. Tony meet bubba


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## BigEasy1

Amen, I couldn't agree more. Only addition is that this happened in Federal waters under Federal control. Should throw some of the Washington bureauocrats who failed to do their jobs in jail along with the BP guys. 
Again, I emphasize that the Feds just are not giving this the attention that is needed. This is a catastrophe that is getting worse by the day. The relief wells will not be completed until August at best. By then we may have another 60 million gallons of oil floating out there. The oil industry is best at shutting in this well, but where is the Federal cleanup response?? This oil isn't going anywhere with Presidential visits and subsidy payments. We are 6 weeks into this and no serious cleanup plan has been put into action. It is going to take years, similar to Alaska, to cleanup this mess.


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## Insails

Funny how every scheme they have had to stop the spill only allows BP to siphon oil for profit...Where are the super tankers and skimmers???..Then we have a no fly zone over the spill area at 3000 feet so the press cant see what new lies they are telling..

We cant believe a word BP says ,they showed us that so far, how can we believe they will pay?

Time to sieze their Assets in the gulf and use the money from their platforms and refineries to pay for the Gulf Coast...When all is paid for and clean...then and only then can they have them back...


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## k1vsk

BigEasy1 said:


> I am not casting blame at this point in time. I have been a proponent of drilling for years; we are a petroleum based economy and will need oil for years to come. My beef is that there are millions of gallons of oil in the gulf and NO ONE is talking about getting the stuff out of the water.


Among the status updates for today are:

"More than 2,700 vessels are responding on site, including skimmers, tugs, barges, and recovery vessels to assist in containment and cleanup efforts-in addition to dozens of aircraft, remotely operated vehicles, and multiple mobile offshore drilling units.
Approximately 2.16 million feet of containment boom and 2.39 million feet of sorbent boom have been deployed to contain the spill-and approximately 682,000 feet of containment boom and 2.4 million feet of sorbent boom are available."

Looks more like they are too busy working to talk or this just doesn't make good headlines


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## Insails

and you expect a 2 foot boom to stop a 700 foot deep plume of oil huh

we have all read that and laughed...and a 1 foot motor boat wake takes them out...USELESS

That boom not even enough to cover Louisana's coast line much less the coast line of the four states envolved ...do the math only 129 miles of boom and most of it failed miserably


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## BigEasy1

Containment boom is a joke. It may work in a small body of water to control a minor spill. With the massive amount of oil in the open waters of the gulf, oil is going over the boom as well as under. NOTHING is being done to pickup the oil that is sitting in the water. We have a few feet of oil that inundating our wetlands. You come down here and see for yourself the amount of oil that is washing into the marshes and the amount of wildlife that is covered with oil & dying, then tell me about how effective the response has been. By August we will have over a hundred million gallons of oil floating out there. Do you really think that containment boom and skimmers are going to solve the problem. The governor of LA requested for berms to be built along our barrie island to mitigate oil getting into our wetlands. It was initially refused because the 300 million dollar cost didn't fit into the cleanup budget!!! Funny thing is that we threw away a trillion dollars to bail out the wall street banks and pay bonuses to the crooks who caused the country's financial crisis However, we don't have the finances to deal with this oil crisis. LA should tax every gallon of oil and every cubic foot of gas that is being produced onshore & offshore. Then maybe we will be able to save our coast. If we have to rely on BP and the Feds, we are history.


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## ericread

Insails said:


> BP has lied to us from Day 1...When they are done in the gulf its time to revoke all of BP's leases and grant them to a company that will be above the board and honest...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! An honest oil company????? HAHAHAHAHAHA Like those "honest oil guys" in Prudhoe Bay???


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## k1vsk

Insails said:


> and you expect a 2 foot boom to stop a 700 foot deep plume of oil huh
> 
> we have all read that and laughed...and a 1 foot motor boat wake takes them out...USELESS
> 
> That boom not even enough to cover Louisana's coast line much less the coast line of the four states envolved ...do the math only 129 miles of boom and most of it failed miserably


Let's start with some fundamentals -
boom is more accurately termed containment boom because it is intended to contain oil only long enough for skimmers or other mechanical means of removal to remove the oil. It isn't intended to stop "a 700 ft deep plume" from a "1 foot motor boat" whatever that is.
Containment boom is the ONLY means of collecting a sufficiently think layer of oil such that skimmers can be used. That is precisely what is being done. If you have a better way, you should have patented it decades ago in which case you'd be rich now because no one else has ever figured out a better method. If not, your laughter is better directed introspectively.

That you seem to believe covering Louisiana's coastline would serve a purpose only demonstrates
a gross lack of understanding.


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## k1vsk

BigEasy1 said:


> NOTHING is being done to pickup the oil that is sitting in the water.


I just returned from there a week ago today after spending 5 days there. Have you?

I saw hundreds of boats, skimmers and thousands of people working extremely hard to do just what you stated isn't being done.

Many of these people are risking their lives to do this. Many have sustained injuries of various types. Stating that "nothing" is being done is plain incorrect.

If what is being done is insufficient for you, by all means - GO HELP! instead of whining about it.


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## BigEasy1

K1vsk,
I appreciate the fact that you were in LA a week ago. I suggest that you come again because it has gotten worse since you left and it is going to continue to get worse until the well is shut down & for a long time after.
I realize that there is some effort to contain the oil spill. The point that I wish to emphasize is that the present efforts are not making a dent in the problem. This will need substantially more manpower and money to make an impact and it is not happening. We are 6 weeks into this thing and it is about time that the Feds and BP step up to the plate. This should be treated as the NATIONAL emergency that it is. 
Once oil contaminates the LA wetlands, it can't be cleaned up like a beach. LA's wetlands are an incubator for hundreds if not thousands of wildlife & fish species. Certainly you understand this fact. You can quote all the statistics that you like; admit it, much more needs to be and soon, befoe it is to late.


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## k1vsk

All I can say is this is an unprecedented effort being put forth and that is as it should given it is also an unprecedented spill. My point is that when you say nothing is being done (to remove the oil), you are doing a huge disservice to the thousands of people who are trying.


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## Insails

k1vsk said:


> Let's start with some fundamentals -
> boom is more accurately termed containment boom because it is intended to contain oil only long enough for skimmers or other mechanical means of removal to remove the oil. It isn't intended to stop "a 700 ft deep plume" from a "1 foot motor boat" whatever that is.
> Containment boom is the ONLY means of collecting a sufficiently think layer of oil such that skimmers can be used. That is precisely what is being done. If you have a better way, you should have patented it decades ago in which case you'd be rich now because no one else has ever figured out a better method. If not, your laughter is better directed introspectively.
> 
> That you seem to believe covering Louisiana's coastline would serve a purpose only demonstrates
> a gross lack of understanding.


Thank you for proving my point to a tee...They WASTED their time deploying 129 miles of boom along coast lines...The plume is 700 feet deep meaning skimming 1 foot off the top is totally useless at this point....I dont think its nothing to brag about or say you did something... And those 2000 or so vessels..many are 16 foot pleasure boats on watch for oil and tending the USELESS BOOMS.


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## Stillraining

Every little bit helps...

Whats done is done...Lets all work together to pressure a positive effect within the industry and the Government as best we can to get an outcome and advancments so we can maybe keep this from happening again.


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## w1651

Here's a few things that could be done
1. Stop worrying about the government Obama, the MMS, and the environment protection agency. They don't care, are dragging their feet and not an asset but a liability.Build your berms your islands what ever you need to do but get it done.
2. Start the process to indict BP. The next time the CEO of BP is in La, Al, Ms, or FL tell him he has to submit his passport right then and there. Let him know he is under criminal indictment and not allowed to leave the country. If he doesn't ARREST HIM.
3. Submit forms papers etc... For the remaining board members of BP for extradition from England to face the same criminal charges.
4. Build the dam, buffers, islands, whatever you need to build the US gov won't permit because of the red tape involved. Just do it and tell the feds to go [EDIT]. Ya tell the pres to his face [EDIT]! 
5. Start civil suits against all 3 or 4 companies involved starting at 25 billion yes billion with a B and let it be known that price will probably be going up.

These are just a few things the states NEED not can do but HAVE TO DO to get the attention of these people and the feds. I bet if the feds thought they were going to lose money from this they would move their a$$es a bit faster. 
The people of Pensacola have started cleaning their own beaches but once they are cleaned here comes more of the same oil. We gotta start filtering out the oil from the water. Maybe like they did in the Gulf of Oman years ago.


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## lancelot9898

BigEasy1 said:


> . This should be treated as the NATIONAL emergency that it is.
> .


Ditto that.....but the blame game continues!!! Anybody remember Apollo 13 and the efforts to bring them back? Did we sit around and wonder who to sue for the mishap?.....And while I'm venting...why haven't we rebuilt the twin towers??


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## k1vsk

Insails said:


> Thank you for proving my point to a tee...They WASTED their time deploying 129 miles of boom along coast lines...The plume is 700 feet deep meaning skimming 1 foot off the top is totally useless at this point....I dont think its nothing to brag about or say you did something... And those 2000 or so vessels..many are 16 foot pleasure boats on watch for oil and tending the USELESS BOOMS.


Got it! I'll be sure to tell them you recommend that the most massive effort ever undertaken to do something about an oil spill is a waste of time and should therefore be stopped completely.
Thanks for the input...

One point of clarification - what does this mean?

"I dont [sp] think its nothing to brag about"


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## sailguy40

The thing is this, some people feel its about giving up our oil and we all use oil so we are all guilty. No we are not guilty! Thats BS! Its not about giving up our oil and its ok to need oil. Its about BP and their choice to operate an oil rig with faulty equipment and numerous safety issues. They even knew they could not do anything 5000ft below and they STILL took a chance. Sure drilling is going to have its risks, but it is NOT ok for an oil company to continue operating an oil rig knowing of possible safety issues that are so critical! There is absolutely NO excuse for this. These idiots at BP have ruined many people's way of life. They have ruined our gulf, ruined our beaches, ruined our wetlands, killed numerous wildlife. Why? A horrible and greedy decision to "keep on operating" and hope nothing goes wrong. An accident can happen but this one should have never even happened. Of course if we did not need oil they would not have to be drilling. Since we do need oil, why can't they just have drilled safely? 

Take this example, say I am a pilot of a 737 and I have 140 passengers onboard. I do my pre-flight checklist prior to takeoff and find a few safety issues that are critical. I decide... "oh it should be ok" then I get in the air at 35,000ft only to find out one of my engines catch fire. Now at 35,000ft not much I can do but hope my fire extinguisher can put the fire out. Oh wait, its not working because that was one of the safety issues I noticed before takeoff. Heck I did not think I needed the fire extinguisher. Now I don't even know how to handle the plane on 1 engine, I have never tried that before. Heck the fire is now spreading to the wings and moments later, the plane explodes in mid-air killing the crew and all 140 passengers onboard.

See what I am getting at? Its like I sure hope the 140 passengers onboard that plane told their loved ones goodbye. When the plane crashes, no one says we need to stop flying. Keep flying but DO NOT fly if you have discovered safety issues on your pre-flight. Another simpler example is if a pilot notices a small fuel leak on his plane during pre-trip on ground, he says its ok but just after takeoff, it explodes and kills everyone onboard. Why did the pilot take off in that plane when he KNEW there was a fuel leak? Now is it fair when all the families who lost loved ones on the flight are home grieving because the pilot made such a bad and horrible choice? So we can keep flying, but maybe the federal government should appoint officers to do a pre-flight check of all aircraft prior to take off. Get strict on these guys! Its all about safety, safety first! 

Same goes for 18-wheelers, there is a pre-trip inspection which must be done every day prior to a driver taking his truck on the road. It confirms the vehicle is safe enough to bring on the highways and is required by DOT. If anything is found, it MUST be fixed BEFORE the truck goes on the road, period. Say for example, a driver of a container 18-wheeler discovers 3 of his container locks are not locking in place. He decides, oh it will be ok until I get to my next stop. He gets on the road, hits a bump on a bridge, the container jolts loose from the chassie trailer and falls on the interstate. A greyhound bus with 40 people onboard slams into it at 65mph, the bus explodes and kills half the people onboard, then another car hits the bus and kills 2 more people. Now is this ok for someone to say... "you use soap? you eat food? you buy things in the store right? they all have to be brought on trucks. its all part of delivering our goods to us and its all part of truck driving." Once again, its NOT all part of it, its BS! The driver made a very horrible decision, he even KNEW those locks were not working but yet he STILL took the truck on the road! See what I am getting at people? THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BP TO HAVE CONTINUED TO OPERATE THIS OIL RIG WITH SAFETY HAZARDS PENDING! Just as the pilot in my example put 140 people at risk, the driver of the truck put everyone on the highway at risk, and BP put 1000s of wildlife, our water, our gulf, our beaches, our livelyhood at risk!

The bottomline is, they cannot afford to have an oil rig such as the deepwater horizon operate in a risky and unsafe condition. These oil rigs should be inspected for safety violations and anything found, operation should cease UNTIL it is fixed. Its not hard, we should never be in the situation we are in. All BP had to do was operate the oil rig safely and responsibly. Oh and another problem, the other BP oil rig, the Atlantis which is about 100miles out further then what the deepwater horizon was, they have found numerous safety issues with that one as well. Lucky they caught them with that one or years down the road, we could have had yet another great oil spill disaster.

This is what the Federal Government should do if they don't already... DO NOT LET ANY OIL COMPANY CONTINUE OPERATING AN OIL RIG IN UNSAFE CONDITIONS! INSPECT IT and INSPECT IT EVERY MONTH MINIMUM! MAKE SURE THEY ARE FOLLOWING THE GUIDELINES FOR SAFETY. IF NOT, SHUT THEM DOWN! INSPECT THEM JUST AS THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION INSPECTS RESTAURANTS. IF SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT, YOU SHUT THEM DOWN UNTIL IT IS RIGHT. THIS WILL PREVENT ANYTHING LIKE THIS EVERY HAPPENING AGAIN.

Ok sorry this is so long, I can get going on this oil spill thing but then again, I think anybody can get going on all this.


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## SantaCruising

lancelot9898 said:


> Ditto that.....but the blame game continues!!! Anybody remember Apollo 13 and the efforts to bring them back? Did we sit around and wonder who to sue for the mishap?.....And while I'm venting...why haven't we rebuilt the twin towers??


My sentiments exactly. Was it BP, or was it the Drilling Contractor... blah blah... I feel horrible for the Family's who make their living on the coast..... Ive heard little on how we are going to help them. Less finger pointing and more obstinate hard working determinism.


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## w1651

SantaCruising said:


> My sentiments exactly. Was it BP, or was it the Drilling Contractor... blah blah... I feel horrible for the Family's who make their living on the coast..... Ive heard little on how we are going to help them. Less finger pointing and more obstinate hard working determinism.


It's all alright now! Obama is talking to the pros because he is finding out whose ass to Kick. (His words not mine)
50 days into this thing and he still hasn't figured it out yet! Are all you Obama voters still proud of that vote you cast?  
Now we got tar balls on the beach in Bradenton Florida. But I am sure analysis will show they aren't from the oil spill. AGAIN!


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## k1vsk

w1651 said:


> Now we got tar balls on the beach in Bradenton Florida. But I am sure analysis will show they aren't from the oil spill. AGAIN!


Yet another candidate for the conspiracy theory group...

Please explain how someone could fake a gas chromatography analysis.


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## ROSA

k1vsk said:


> Yet another candidate for the conspiracy theory group...
> 
> Please explain how someone could fake a gas chromatography analysis.


No conspiracy theory is necessary here. Just continue to tell the lies to the people in order to prevent panic in this situation. They, the government and BP have been doing that since the beginning of this event, and that has been very well established and documented. At the very least they have been adjusting the facts downward. Neither retains creditability with the people at this time.


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## Insails

Here is more proof of just what scum BP is..

and yet people take up for them....I feel for those that do because they will wear a stupid label where ever they go forever..

Amazing they can spend millions on this yet cant spend 500k on a part to prevent the spill or wait on concrete to set before drilling for money...They screwed up and instead of admitting it they are still trying to BUY your opinion......
BP Buys Search Engine Phrases Redirecting Users - ABC News

Need a laugh? This is funny but is also the TRUTH:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/massive-flow-of-********-continues-to-gush-from-bp,17564/


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## w1651

Way to go google! Now that's the American way. 

Now I remember why I used ask.com to search something...


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## souljour2000

Can't we have a discussion about an oil spill in the Gulf without it sounding like a bunch of tea got spilled on purpose into Boston harbor?...Crikee!


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## Insails

I guess you just have to live here in the dead zone to understand how and why we feel as we do souljour....but when deception is all you get while your waters and marine life are being destroyed by a series of dumb moves that could have been prevented you tend to have more emotion than those displaced from it...No they did not purposely cause the spill but their wrecklessness for the regulations and greed sure did.. It's not the victims that need to to blamed for their feelings ,Had BP been honest from day one maybe we would not feel this way???...If BP did not want to be blamed they should not have ever told lie after lie to us that live here...

I also bet if this oil was in boston Harbor there would be far more finger pointing than there is now..

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

The truth will be known

Couldn't resist!:


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## ntrienens

What a mess. Thankful that sailing doesn't contribute to the thirst for oil.


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## kd3pc

Welcome to Corp business practice....

I surely am not covering for BP, but EVERY Corp in America is ignoring risk, known and unknown to make a buck. Risk has to be accepted, mitigated, or ignored and most of the corp world does all or some of this, some all three at the same time. In the end they are paralyzed by information. We should not be surprised then, when an accident happens and the corp has no clue how to deal with the results. Laying off experienced staff, cutting staff to minimums, etc are starting to show where that risk lay. And now they do not have the experience or expertise to act.

There are dozens of oil companies that easily could be (or are - as far as their spin is concerned) in the same place as BP...you just haven't heard about their disasters, yet.

the lies are just as prevalent as the actions...again in every corp out there...GM - "pays back their loan in Full" says the CEO...and this is but one example. The president, congress and their staff are all guilty of this, as are our kids, and our selves.

How do you get to the truth, when like other issues, the "scientists" can't agree on what is actually happening (i.e. flow rates, plumes, tarballs, etc), let alone what MAY happen in the future? Then the spin du jour of the media and the White House start up and no one "knows" anything. Acting on speculation and ignorance becomes the only course they know, - SOMEONE has to DO something...!!!

I am sympathetic to the plight of the gulf, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease, ala dispersants. To quickly act may get more people killed or more damage done, but to be this slow in response is almost as bad. In my part of the river, they would rather you not mess up the shoreline and understory, than to pull rusted barrels and creosoted wood from the water.

Drunk driving kills more people and renders more harm, but there is no outrage on that. East coast of Fl is struggling to survive the media reports of soiled beaches and destroyed coral reefs....which is simply not true, but the masses "believe it is so" so it must be so...where is the outrage there? 

Why does our gov't not step up and simply state that recreational boats, that have not left the slip don't get a BP payment, like they have - where is the outrage and the media there??

K1 has tried to state a lot of what appear to be verifiable facts, but even on this small board of sharp people, there are those that feel he is just making this up?? What about the not so smart folks who believe wikipaedia is gospel, who think that you can just stick an auto-inflatable PFD in the hole, or Costner's brother and his machine...and all we be well...

Sadly the waterfront, marshes and beach in your part of the world are trashed for many years, mark my word. Solutions not politics will save the day, but acceptance of that idea is not here yet, and may not be with our leadership. No amount of "cleanup" or lawsuits is going to make it right, 

Mother Nature is a *****..


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## SantaCruising

I learned as a child, from every mistake comes a lesson. We should focus on the lesson.


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## Insails

There are dozens of oil companies that easily could be (or are - as far as their spin is concerned) in the same place as BP...you just haven't heard about their disasters, yet.

So true 
like this one:









Story:Another Gulf oil spill: Well near Deepwater Horizon has leaked since at least April 30 | al.com


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## Insails

SantaCruising said:


> I learned as a child, from every mistake comes a lesson. We should focus on the lesson.


I agree but the oil industry does not...They have tried to a Tee exactly what did not work before ....

They can drill deeper yet they have not learned a better way since the last one:





Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy


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## bb32

Little did I know how utterly, sadly, tragically and exactly right George Carlin, one of the most astute and HONEST observers of the human condition there has ever been, got it when he said this:
YouTube - George Carlin -"Who Really Controls America"


----------



## ROSA

bb32 said:


> Little did I know how utterly, sadly, tragically and exactly right George Carlin, one of the most astute and HONEST observers of the human condition there has ever been, got it when he said this:
> YouTube - George Carlin -"Who Really Controls America"


He is so right on the mark. It doesn't get any more plain than he has made it.


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## therapy23

ntrienens said:


> What a mess. Thankful that sailing doesn't contribute to the thirst for oil.


Hey Junior,

That is one of the funniest posts I have read in months.

Thanks!


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## Insails

Seems BP has a mental problem,they are an habitual liar..
[URL=http://www.khou.com/news/local/BP-urged-to-shut-down-Atlantis-oil-rig-amid-safety-concerns--95888489.html]BP urged to shut down â€˜Atlantisâ€™ oil rig amid safety concerns | khou.com | khou.com Local News

When the leak is stopped it will be time to make an example out of BP and make it hurt big time or this game of cover up and lies will continue..

We all agree we need oil until another alternative is found but it dont mean we as a nation or a world have to put up with sleezy liars...

After BP pays for all the damage to the Gulf then the fines and jail sentences should begain...and there should be "No Deals" cut..they not only need the book thrown at them but they should be burried under the book so we can bring some kind of control back to an out of control industry...

What they are is criminals....


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## nolatom

Out of work because your rig was shut down by the Presidential moratorium? Not to worry, the White House recommends that BP pay your lost wages:

White House says BP will pay idled rig workers - NOLA.com

Great. So Ricky the roustabout, or Danny the deckhand off an idled supply boat, gets in line at BP? And BP pays out to workers laid off from everyone else's shut-down rigs/boats/shipyards/you name it, because the Prez doesn't trust his MMS any more?

How tone-deaf can they get in DC? They're "considering" a bill to get unemployment comp for these guys.

Please don't do us any more favors down here?


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## w1651

souljour2000 said:


> Can't we have a discussion about an oil spill in the Gulf without it sounding like a bunch of tea got spilled on purpose into Boston harbor?...Crikee!


If this spill was off your coast and BP had stated it was a safe well and there were contingency plans for every possible scenario when there wasn't. Not to mention your countries gov checked off on it and you found out that your gov let BP officials and workers fill out the safety forms, had a cozy relationship with the company and completely disregarded their responsibility to the citizens of this country,and didn't check the safety of the rig because of their cozy relationship with BP, completely over looking the regulations involved as well as safety issues. 
Not to mention 11 men died in the explosion that occured because of all the lies, corruption, and negligence involved at all levels of the corp and gov. 
Then the spill caused DEAD ZONES where there was once thriving life, And now there's Loss of industries like tourism and fishing. Not to mention the Ecological damage done to Marshes and the coastal regions for the next couple of centuries. MINIMUM

I think you would be a bit angry at your gov and BP yourself. CRIKEE!


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## w1651

nolatom said:


> Out of work because your rig was shut down by the Presidential moratorium? Not to worry, the White House recommends that BP pay your lost wages:
> 
> White House says BP will pay idled rig workers - NOLA.com
> 
> Great. So Ricky the roustabout, or Danny the deckhand off an idled supply boat, gets in line at BP? And BP pays out to workers laid off from everyone else's shut-down rigs/boats/shipyards/you name it, because the Prez doesn't trust his MMS any more?
> 
> How tone-deaf can they get in DC? They're "considering" a bill to get unemployment comp for these guys.
> 
> Please don't do us any more favors down here?


 I know how to make it better. 
DON"T CAUSE ANYMORE SPILLS IN THE WORLD THEN !!!!

You people looking for sympathy for BP are seriously in need of some serious COUNSELING!!!


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## nolatom

"you people"? I ain't one. I'm in the lonely middle, and catch it from both sides, who are much more comfortable with, and convinced of, their beliefs.


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## kootenay

Ultimately it is the USA that is on the hook for this disaster both in its waters and international or other national waters. The US should look to BP to pay the bill ultimately but I suspect when all of this is done BP wont have enough equity to cover the mess and it will be up to the US taxpayers to fund the bill. 

There should be a lesson in it for every country, if you cant afford to cover the worst case senario then dont take the risk for the limited benefit you will get from the activity. This will cost untold billions before it is done. And yes the workers who lose jobs as a result of this is part of the cost that the American people ultimately will bear.


----------



## Insails

The spill area is large now and BP cant stop all from investigating..
This is an interesting look at the spill..
A real investigative reporter for a change..









Journalist dives into the oil spill for closer look, must clean for 1 hour (with video) | al.com


----------



## k1vsk

W1651
You made two statements which I'd like to see you back up with supportable evidence:
1."You people looking for sympathy for BP are seriously in need of some serious COUNSELING!!!"

No one I've read comments from here has asked or implied a sympathy connotation - please show us specifically what you are talking about if you can.

2. "Not to mention the Ecological damage done to Marshes and the coastal regions for the next couple of centuries. MINIMUM".

Can you provide even one piece of scientific evidence to support this claim?

Finally, I would ask AGAIN if you can explain to us how anyone could falsify a GC analysis as you accused the CG of doing.

If you can't substantiate such claims, please refrain as we are not idiots.

Credibility is important to some of us - Please feel free to prove me wrong


----------



## geetcher

*Credibility?*

Yes, credibility would be nice. Too bad we can't get that from BP. As of today, they're still denying the presence of plumes underneath the surface! As a Louisiana native who's worked hard for everything I have I feel so sad for the fisherman and others affected by this terrible event. Heck, I live on the water off of Lake Pontchartrain in Louisiana and sell real estate. I could definitely be affected! Anyway, it's terrible and unemployment at $800 month max isn't the answer. As far as those thinking these posts are too angry or emotional, well after being through Katrina already and now worrying about oil on my sailboat and lost value of my waterfront home that I'm trying to sell I can only say - imagine being in the shoes of those in Plaquemines Parish and be thankful it's not you. I move on with my dreams and fixing our sailboat for cruising, but this weighs heavy on my mind. Wishing the best to all! =)


----------



## kd3pc

"Yes, credibility would be nice. Too bad we can't get that from BP. As of today, they're still denying the presence of plumes underneath the surface! "

IMHO Credibility is out there with truth and responsibility. And it is certainly not just BP that is short on it. Seems these accidents bring out all sorts who have an agenda, want their 5 minutes of fame, or will make money taking advantage of the event. None are looking for solutions, sadly. We have them on the Chesapeake, and they offer nothing of value and are short on facts but big on talking points and agenda.

As a life long sailor and diver, I can say that we KNOW less about the oceans and what is "normal" than we do about outer space. Plumes may or may not have been there all along, they do happen from time to time, and are not always "oil". Even temperature and thermoclines can be "seen" when approached from the right vantage point. 

When so many scientists start to speculate from the comfort of their office or campus about an event hundreds of miles away - they have never seen, I quit listening. When a "scientist" says that tar balls are new, I quit listening. When you do go to the web for fact checking and find that this media spokesman has no oceanography experience, or drilling experience...you really have to doubt his interview has relevance.

My heart goes out to those affected, but BP is only part of the blame, and even less in the solution. Where are Jindal and Obama and solutions in all this spin...


----------



## w1651

k1vsk said:


> W1651
> You made two statements which I'd like to see you back up with supportable evidence:
> 1."You people looking for sympathy for BP are seriously in need of some serious COUNSELING!!!"
> 
> No one I've read comments from here has asked or implied a sympathy connotation - please show us specifically what you are talking about if you can.
> 
> 2. "Not to mention the Ecological damage done to Marshes and the coastal regions for the next couple of centuries. MINIMUM".
> 
> Can you provide even one piece of scientific evidence to support this claim?
> 
> Finally, I would ask AGAIN if you can explain to us how anyone could falsify a GC analysis as you accused the CG of doing.
> 
> If you can't substantiate such claims, please refrain as we are not idiots.
> 
> Credibility is important to some of us - Please feel free to prove me wrong


Here you go try this on for size.

/www.aolnews.com/nation/article/louisiana-marshes-will-pose-challenges-for-gulf-oil-spill-cleanup/19485841

"Remember the photos of the workers pressure-washing the oil off boulders in Alaska? You can't pressure-wash a marsh," says Denise Reed, interim director of the University of New Orleans' Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies.

You wouldn't argue against the USGS would you?

USGS Minnesota Water Science Center

Sympathy (source) "online dictionary"

Look at #1 ,2,3 but 5 fits you like a big, soft, velvet glove doesn't it. Come on slide it on. you know you want to K1.
You and some others at times show all of these qualities towards BP.

1. sameness of feeling; affinity between persons or of one person for another
2. Now Rare agreement in qualities; harmony; accord
3. a mutual liking or understanding arising from sameness of feeling
4.
1. an entering into, or the ability to enter into, another person's mental state, feelings, emotions, etc.
2. pity or compassion felt for another's trouble, suffering, etc.
5. a feeling of approval of or agreement with an idea, cause, etc.
6. Physics a relation or harmony between bodies of such a nature that vibrations in one cause sympathetic vibrations in the other or others
7. Physiol. a relation between body parts of such a nature that a disorder, pain, etc. in one induces a similar effect in another

Origin: L sympathia < Gr sympatheia < syn-, together + pathos, feeling: see

And Lastly you are right. 
Yup! I said it your right, the oil found the other day did not I REPEAT it did not come from the gulf spill.
It came from a LEAK AT ANOTHER RIG IN THE GULF!


----------



## Insails

When so many scientists start to speculate from the comfort of their office or campus about an event hundreds of miles away - they have never seen, I quit listening. When a "scientist" says that tar balls are new, I quit listening. When you do go to the web for fact checking and find that this media spokesman has no oceanography experience, or drilling experience...you really have to doubt his interview has relevance.

These people have been there and say the PLUMES exist...
I guess NOAA and the University of florida Scientest don't count and I guess BPs word means more than their research...
Underwater oil plumes confirmed in Gulf by scientists | NOLA.com

This man was there also but BP tried to stop him from going where he needed to be:
Jean-Michel Cousteau | NOLA.com

Then a dive made by this man:
Video: ABC dives into the oil/dispersant mix; Cousteau grandson says it's not a pretty picture | al.com

many scientest and divers have seen these plumes BP denies and are still denying...

So who do you believe the scientest who have been there or BP who has been caught covering up from day 1..????


----------



## geetcher

kd3pc said:


> "Yes, credibility would be nice. Too bad we can't get that from BP. As of today, they're still denying the presence of plumes underneath the surface! "
> 
> IMHO Credibility is out there with truth and responsibility. And it is certainly not just BP that is short on it. Seems these accidents bring out all sorts who have an agenda, want their 5 minutes of fame, or will make money taking advantage of the event. None are looking for solutions, sadly. We have them on the Chesapeake, and they offer nothing of value and are short on facts but big on talking points and agenda.
> 
> As a life long sailor and diver, I can say that we KNOW less about the oceans and what is "normal" than we do about outer space. Plumes may or may not have been there all along, they do happen from time to time, and are not always "oil". Even temperature and thermoclines can be "seen" when approached from the right vantage point.
> 
> When so many scientists start to speculate from the comfort of their office or campus about an event hundreds of miles away - they have never seen, I quit listening. When a "scientist" says that tar balls are new, I quit listening. When you do go to the web for fact checking and find that this media spokesman has no oceanography experience, or drilling experience...you really have to doubt his interview has relevance.
> 
> My heart goes out to those affected, but BP is only part of the blame, and even less in the solution. Where are Jindal and Obama and solutions in all this spin...


Yes, more needs to be done by the government, no doubt. They have an obligation to protect their people, but that's yet another story. This government's ways are part of the reason we're heading to the Caribbean! However, do we need to remind you that BP's negligence, impatience, and greed is what caused this incident? Therefore, this tragedy IS THEIR FAULT! Or, are you saying that those that jumped off the burning rig in order to save their lives are lying at this point about BPs negligence in the weeks before the explosion? I'd think they'd want the real story to get out, since they barely survived and 11 of their coworkers did not. Anyway, I did not log on today to debate, but are you implying these plumes that a reporter jumped into and was immediately covered with thick oil (not to mention wildlife) have always been there? Good day!


----------



## k1vsk

W1651

says "You wouldn't argue against the USGS would you?"

As your link pertains to 400,000 gal of oil permeated in Alaska tundra, they are correct. Is that analogy on which you base your comparison to the Gulf??????????????????????????

USGS Minnesota Water Science Center

W1651 says:
"Sympathy (source) "online dictionary"

You quote a definition of the terms as a basis by which you accuse someone of doing it - WITH NO BASIS in action, deed or word???????????????????

This is an environmental disaster and it makes it worse when people make false statements. I have no problem that you are angry about this - lots of people are and rightfully so. Just do it properly.

Not that this minimizes the current spill but there are those here who never bother to find out and clearly don't know there has been a dead zone in the Gulf for over a decade created by agricultural and pesticide runoff out of the Miss. Delta and it is the size of New Jersey! That this "dead zone" mirrors much of that area you so vehemently concern yourself with demonstrates a lot.

As entertaining as this has been, I have to return to the Gulf tomorrow so feel free to continue unchallenged.


----------



## GreatWhite

From the Financialpost today (Hayward is the BP CEO)

First, the U.S. is guilty of crazy double standards. Hayward should go on TV and say: "Excuse me, which country is the biggest oil consumer on the planet? Who refused to do anything about climate change, or even to put sensible taxes on gas? Heck, your president even flies around in a 747 when a modest Gulfstream jet would get him there just as fast. So of course the oil companies have to drill in more and more dangerous places. If you insist on being addicted to cheap oil, you have to recognize there are risks attached. So grow up, and stop acting like children."

Read more: BP needs to tell whining Americans to take a hike


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## kd3pc

Ken and the group....

NO way am I saying the plumes aren't/weren't there or that this is not BPs "fault"..I just don't think a "plume" 400 miles away is directly related to this spill..

No way am I saying that is OK for anyone to keep anyone from reporting on this, like the news used to do years ago...I don't know what the facts are, as the reports by the media are speculative, sensationalist and start with errors - so I doubt the integrity of the report overall..like "FL beaches are closed" - the facts simply do not support this statement...sure there is some oil on some panhandle beaches...but the east coast, come on - it is simply not there!

I am saying that what BP did/still does is the "industry standard" and that until our thirst for oil is slaked by Nuclear/alternative to fossil fuels...accidents are going to happen and this response by BP and the Gov't does nothing to assuage my mind that those spills will be handled any better. There is risk, and it is accepted by BP and the Gov't.. to get the oil..at all costs, it seems to me. 

To shut down drilling ala Salazar has done - writes a check that this economy and country can't cash...with no more idea of what he is doing than the President....to those gulf state's futures

I am saying that what our Gov't (all of them/it) has done is bordering on nothing, and I see nothing in the future that tells me they will change or do anything differently than what they are doing now. We are looking at years of finger pointing, lawsuits, bankruptcy (if you can call what GM did a bankruptcy) of contractors and likely BP, blame, inaction, spin and politics as usual. Not to mention more rampant unemployment and higher fuel prices, both locally and around the nation. 

Too Big To Fail is quite appropriate to this industry...yet this hasn't registered on the President's to do list...as he has also DONE nothing to mitigate this..talk, spin, talk, etc..

That my friend stinks to high heavens. NO ONE is looking at viable long term solutions to the crisis at hand or prevention of future events like this. The gov't is complicit in this accident by knowing nothing about what they were to inspect.

It will happen again, and given the number of drill sites in the Gulf...the odds are it will be there.

Debate is good, and you guys are great...but we have to somehow convince the politicians to move off it and DO SOMETHING NOW


----------



## w1651

As entertaining as this has been, I have to return to the Gulf tomorrow so feel free to continue unchallenged.


You quote a definition of the terms as a basis by which you accuse someone of doing it - WITH NO BASIS in action, deed or word??????????????????? 

The word was Sympathy.
Your writings speak volumes sir. Perhaps you should read your own posts. 


As entertaining as this has been, I have to return to the Gulf tomorrow so feel free to continue unchallenged.

That explains a lot. But don't worry when you get there I will still be here engaged in the discussion at hand. Feel free to chime in anytime you like. Debate is the only good thing coming from this spill.


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## w1651

Kd3pc

YOU ROCK!!!!!


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## Yamsailor

Enjoy.

RTOFS (Atlantic) Graphic Nowcasts/Forecasts

RTOFS (Atlantic) Graphic Nowcasts/Forecasts


----------



## Insails

Was going to try to sail today as the upper bay is not closed yet,but the air quality is so bad and the stinch from the dead sealife and oil that there is no way to sail without wearing a Hazmat suit...and with temps in the 90s thats near impossible...

I see the surfers have figured it out:
what a way to enjoy the beach..Thanks BP scum...


----------



## Insails

This is why we cant get anything done...

You just can't work with stupid...
This was BP's plan for the Gulf with government approval...

Talk about stupid the plan includes sealife that don't even exist in the Gulf..

Reads like a Jimmy Buffett song..Don't describe the ocean if you have never seen it...

This is the stupid we are dealing with...

First line say's it all:

VENICE, La. -- Professor Peter Lutz is listed in BP's 2009 response plan for a Gulf of Mexico oil spill as a national wildlife expert. He died in 2005.

Under the heading "sensitive biological resources," the plan lists marine mammals including walruses, sea otters, sea lions and seals. None lives anywhere near the Gulf.

rest of story:
AP: BP emergency plan for Gulf oil spill response extremely flawed - Bennington Banner


----------



## w1651

Insails said:


> This is why we cant get anything done...
> 
> You just can't work with stupid...
> This was BP's plan for the Gulf with government approval...
> 
> Talk about stupid the plan includes sealife that don't even exist in the Gulf..
> 
> Reads like a Jimmy Buffett song..Don't describe the ocean if you have never seen it...
> 
> This is the stupid we are dealing with...
> 
> First line say's it all:
> 
> VENICE, La. -- Professor Peter Lutz is listed in BP's 2009 response plan for a Gulf of Mexico oil spill as a national wildlife expert. He died in 2005.
> 
> Under the heading "sensitive biological resources," the plan lists marine mammals including walruses, sea otters, sea lions and seals. None lives anywhere near the Gulf.
> 
> rest of story:
> AP: BP emergency plan for Gulf oil spill response extremely flawed - Bennington Banner


I think the key line in the story is the one that says ( The plan approved by the feds) 
Why does that not surprise me?
Am I the only one ready for the revolution?


----------



## Insails

w1651 said:


> I think the key line in the story is the one that says ( The plan approved by the feds)
> Why does that not surprise me?
> Am I the only one ready for the revolution?


Hahaha...and I thought being a meteorologist was the only job you could be wrong everyday and not get fired...

heads should roll big time and the feds who approved that should be fired and their pension used to fund the Gulf beacause they stole our Tax money!!!

Now you see why BP and the Feds want to control the media and blackout the news of the spill
maybe stories like that will open the eyes of the nay sayers


----------



## w1651

A big AMEN there Sails.

We are soooooo Screwed in this deal. Now the news media are reporting that BP's stock has dropped and could bankrupt the company. We have gone full circle.
BP's spill to the media to Washington now to Wall Street. And it only took 51 days.
That's gotta be some kind of new record.


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## Insails

BP stations near the gulf are using canvas covers that say "Shell" and covering the BP sign...They also have removed the BP logo from the canopies over the pumps......


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## remetau

w1651 said:


> A big AMEN there Sails.
> 
> We are soooooo Screwed in this deal. Now the news media are reporting that BP's stock has dropped and could bankrupt the company. We have gone full circle.
> BP's spill to the media to Washington now to Wall Street. And it only took 51 days.
> That's gotta be some kind of new record.


Let them fail, and hopefully they'll take Exon, Shell and Chevron with them.


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## Insails

Time to freeze their assets so when they sell out the Gulf Coast gets the money and not BP and their stock holders....

and as mentioned before...Booms are wortless they don't work and are another part of BPs unprepared plan...Time wasted just as I said earlier:
Boom's a bust as oil spill seeps into Perdido Pass | al.com


----------



## KeelHaulin

It concerns me that the trend is the following: When a company needs to pay off the public (PAY some of the tax payers); they go into Bankruptcy (causing tax payers as a whole to foot the bill); but when the banks and auto industry can't cover losses they get a bailout (TAKE FROM the tax payers). In both cases they are stealing from US; to cover for their mistakes!


----------



## RAGNAR

Because there was honest debate over who was ultimately responsible for the Valdez mess, the EPA was given incredible powers and authority with which to manage this sort of thing back in the '90s.

The EPA needs no one's permission to burn off the oil, use chemical agents to either neutralize or congeal the oil, build sand berms, etc. They're empowered to take control of any and all equipment needed to minimize the damage. Because time is so crucial in a disaster like this, they are only accountable for their actions after the fact. 

And yet, they've done next to nothing.

Worse, because the EPA has the responsibility and all this temporary power, the private sector* doesn't have to set up thorough contingency plans.

Blame BP all you want, but it's the EPA that's ultimately responsible for this disaster getting so out of control.

*Given the amount of legislation and regulation the oil sector contends with, the arbitrary way in which these rules are drawn, enforced and edited, and the whole behind the scenes politicking thing that takes every POV backed by so much as a Benjamin into account, oil companies aren't anything like private industry. They're that cancerous amalgam of local, state and federal government, and relatively minor characteristics of privately owned corporations.


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## KeelHaulin

Yeah; but ask yourself this question:

Who does the EPA take their orders from?? Yep; the guy living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave...


----------



## kd3pc

AND given the economic impact of BP going bankrupt, and with the man we have in the white house, BP will be deemed to big to fail, and the Gov't will own this mess...just like the aforementioned messes, that we as taxpayers now own...

And I really thought things could not get much worse, economically...hahaha! Gas crisis here we come, gulf states are screwed, marshes contaminated....and that is if BP/Feds get the relief wells done this summer...


----------



## KeelHaulin

Do ya think MAYBE this is YA Cloward-Piven based attack on our government/economy?? (Not to mention the distraction while Congress passes the American Power Act - AKA Cap&Trade - AKA Crime INC).


----------



## kootenay

Problem is as Washington continues to slag BP it reduces its value and therefor reduces BP's ability to fund the clean up. the net result is every time a high profile American official, political or otherwise, threatens BP with any manner of sanction it increases the cost to the US tax payers.


----------



## KeelHaulin

Dude we are on day 52 of a massive gushing spill. I don't think many people are listening to the government slagging on BP right now. They are looking at oiled beaches and wildlife, a jet-setting president who has no clue of how foolish he looks, the fact that BP had no contingencies for this, and wondering what the hell is going on. BP's safety plan included contacting industry "experts" that were dead; and emergency contact numbers that don't exist.


----------



## w1651

Insails said:


> Time to freeze their assets so when they sell out the Gulf Coast gets the money and not BP and their stock holders....
> 
> and as mentioned before...Booms are wortless they don't work and are another part of BPs unprepared plan...Time wasted just as I said earlier:
> Boom's a bust as oil spill seeps into Perdido Pass | al.com


I'd like to do more then that to their Assets!!!


----------



## w1651

Im thinking the governors of the affected areas and local Mayers and councilmen need to take matters into their own hands and tell the feds to go pee up a rope. 
Build the sand berms and block the oil from the beaches. Gitter Done!!! Stop worrying about permits and regulations from the EPA. They are a part of an absentee government which makes them a non entity. 
I would also like to see my own Governor Christ be a little more forcefull when the pres is in town and not just there for the photo op.
That limp wristed weenie! Would someone push him outta the closet already?


----------



## GraemeInCanada

BP has loads and loads of money, no way they will go bankrupt. They can pay this stuff off in a quarter of earnings. Remember, this kind of spill happens all over the place, just doesn't happen to be in your country where you might see it on the news. There should be no "gas crisis", it's not like this well was online in the first place, so they're not relying on it for oil. One of many many many oil wells in production.

Plus BP is being sure to siphon up as much as they can right now, so it's hardly a loss for them.

If your government lets them claim bankruptcy or some crap like that it will be amazing.. truly amazing how well entrenched they are in your government. 

Not that Canada is much better....


----------



## kootenay

yup keel you are dead right one thing I have learned after 54 years is that the one thing you can expect from any organization larger than about 3 people is general incompetence. However, at the moment reducing the value of BP is not in America's best interest. It simply isnt. Thats reality, it sucks but it is true. A catch 22 if you call the incompetent incompetent it will reduce the value of the incompetent company and as such US tax payers will have to foot the bill. and it will be a big bill.


----------



## remetau

w1651 said:


> Im thinking the governors of the affected areas and local Mayers and councilmen need to take matters into their own hands and tell the feds to go pee up a rope.
> Build the sand berms and block the oil from the beaches. Gitter Done!!! Stop worrying about permits and regulations from the EPA. They are a part of an absentee government which makes them a non entity.
> I would also like to see my own Governor Christ be a little more forcefull when the pres is in town and not just there for the photo op.
> That limp wristed weenie! Would someone push him outta the closet already?


I'm thinking that we as people need to do more grassroots direct actions instead of seeking for government solutions. We need some oil boycotts, large protests, ways to shut down the rigs, and maybe even some sabotage.


----------



## knothead

remetau said:


> maybe even some sabotage.


Don, with all due respect. Talking like that is foolish.


----------



## remetau

knothead said:


> Don, with all due respect. Talking like that is foolish.


Could be, and I am normally a pacifist, but when they lie and destroy life, then maybe more action is needed.


----------



## kd3pc

Sorry Rem

death for "lying and destroying life"...there would be a long list of potential candidates before you even left the marina...let alone got in to the real world.

In the real world, crap happens, and as I and others have posted before...our actions can, and often do, make things worse...

Besides Mother Nature has a way of dealing with things...


----------



## remetau

kd3pc said:


> Sorry Rem
> 
> death for "lying and destroying life"...there would be a long list of potential candidates before you even left the marina...let alone got in to the real world.
> 
> In the real world, crap happens, and as I and others have posted before...our actions can, and often do, make things worse...
> 
> Besides Mother Nature has a way of dealing with things...


Kd,

I never said anything about death, and I agree that nature does deal with things, but it doesn't need to get that far. We should be putting life before profit and greed, and when that doesn't happen, people need to speak up.


----------



## Insails

Plus BP is being sure to siphon up as much as they can right now, so it's hardly a loss for them.


BINGO!! instead of plugging the damn hole they want money at the expense of our coast...EXACTLY why we here on the Gulf are Angry and you would be too if they were peeing in your backyard....we dont like it ..


----------



## Insails

If ever a man needed to be fired ...here he is!!!

Such compassion huh..
A quote from "Tony the Terriable":

"After failed efforts to cover the well leaks with containment domes and to redistribute the oil into FPSO vessels, we think the time has come to just light the whole thing up. We are aware of the risks, but at this point we really don't give a ****."

and he say's worse...I wont repeat it here because he uses the "F-Bomb"..
real class act

BP to Clean Up Oil Spill with Matches | Satire and breaking news from the Daily Fortnight

Maybe this time in the Faulklands we take up for Argentina...that may knock some smug out of them)!!!


----------



## kootenay

GraemeInCanada said:


> BP has loads and loads of money, no way they will go bankrupt. They can pay this stuff off in a quarter of earnings. Remember, this kind of spill happens all over the place, just doesn't happen to be in your country where you might see it on the news. There should be no "gas crisis", it's not like this well was online in the first place, so they're not relying on it for oil. One of many many many oil wells in production.
> 
> Plus BP is being sure to siphon up as much as they can right now, so it's hardly a loss for them.
> 
> If your government lets them claim bankruptcy or some crap like that it will be amazing.. truly amazing how well entrenched they are in your government.
> 
> Not that Canada is much better....


BP has lost 50% of its total value since the spill or about 110 billion dollars. So with 110 billion in equity left and its still dropping in value how much is going to be needed to clean up this mess totally and compensate everyone? I understand they have spent just under 2 billion so far and this is going to go on for years.

The real big impact of this is on Brit pension plans which own a huge chunk of BP. Imagine you are a Brit teacher about to retire and the corner stone of your pension plan is BP. Its down 50% and you are staring at US politico's driving the value down further. Now you are pissed at BP and devastated as we all are at the environmental impact but man when are you ever getting fed up with folks over here slamming BP's value down. Watch British public opinion re the US over the next little while I would expect to see the Anti American sentiment spike for a bit in the UK.

Hell in Canada Alberta Oil virtually runs our country. So you are totally right its the same in Canada only in spades.


----------



## remetau

kootenay said:


> Hell in Canada Alberta Oil virtually runs our country. So you are totally right its the same in Canada only in spades.


How about the environmental impacts of the tar sands? This should be boycotted too!


----------



## kootenay

remetau said:


> How about the environmental impacts of the tar sands? This should be boycotted too!


Sure go ahead and boycott it but I dont know how you will ID Oil sands oil since every major player is in the game and if you were to boycott all the sources of oil that are unconventional eg ocean and tar sands then your going to be doing an awful lot of walking.


----------



## Insails

We on the coast know this man is the biggest LIAR in history..

They wont air this where the truth is known...
BP post-spill image-rebuilding ad airing nationally and on cable, but not in Gulf markets | al.com

Hard to rebuild an image in an area where we know scum when we see it!

The whole AD is BS...he knows we know it on the Gulf Coast
Others may believe this fraud in hope of saving their investment but is it really an investment with such an egotistical self centered company??

nope they would lie and leave you belly up to die in an oil slick in a heartbeat and laugh all the way to the bank with your investment...


----------



## w1651

kootenay said:


> BP has lost 50% of its total value since the spill or about 110 billion dollars. So with 110 billion in equity left and its still dropping in value how much is going to be needed to clean up this mess totally and compensate everyone? I understand they have spent just under 2 billion so far and this is going to go on for years.
> 
> The real big impact of this is on Brit pension plans which own a huge chunk of BP. Imagine you are a Brit teacher about to retire and the corner stone of your pension plan is BP. Its down 50% and you are staring at US politico's driving the value down further. Now you are pissed at BP and devastated as we all are at the environmental impact but man when are you ever getting fed up with folks over here slamming BP's value down. Watch British public opinion re the US over the next little while I would expect to see the Anti American sentiment spike for a bit in the UK.
> 
> Hell in Canada Alberta Oil virtually runs our country. So you are totally right its the same in Canada only in spades.


Bp got caught price fixing the cost of gas in the northeast a few years ago. They actually had the companies employees memos and recorded phone calls w2ith the managers laughing (yes laughing) about the fraud. They ended up paying a fine of 110 million I believe. The largest in US history at that time.

Now in the gulf they are back at it. Telling lies and laughing all the way to the banks. They don't care about the leak, they want to get the relief wells drilled to get at the oil. There's a lot of investment down there.

Kootenay your a good person and I wouldn't mind meeting you and having a tall cold Bass with you someday.
But I am not going to shed one tear for BP or lose a wink of sleep for that retired teacher. And I really don't care how or what the Brits feel or say about the US. Let that retired teacher come to LA, AL, MS, Fl on vacation and go for a swim. Hell! As a taxpayer of the US I would even let the gov buy her the plane ticket.


----------



## Insails

Here is more proof of what BP has done...Lie:
With each look at oil flow, the numbers get worse - Yahoo! News

This will eclipse Ixtoc...


----------



## Insails

This don't need words


----------



## kootenay

w1651 said:


> Bp got caught price fixing the cost of gas in the northeast a few years ago. They actually had the companies employees memos and recorded phone calls w2ith the managers laughing (yes laughing) about the fraud. They ended up paying a fine of 110 million I believe. The largest in US history at that time.
> 
> Now in the gulf they are back at it. Telling lies and laughing all the way to the banks. They don't care about the leak, they want to get the relief wells drilled to get at the oil. There's a lot of investment down there.
> 
> Kootenay your a good person and I wouldn't mind meeting you and having a tall cold Bass with you someday.
> But I am not going to shed one tear for BP or lose a wink of sleep for that retired teacher. And I really don't care how or what the Brits feel or say about the US. Let that retired teacher come to LA, AL, MS, Fl on vacation and go for a swim. Hell! As a taxpayer of the US I would even let the gov buy her the plane ticket.


You shouldnt lose any sleep over BP I totally agree. Its a company and its aims are to make money for its shareholders not to save the world. BP however, has a great deal of law on its side with which it could, if it wanted to, limit its liability to a few hundred million. It will be interesting to see how it reacts in the next few months to its liability issues.

I think the pensioners in Britian are victims of the situation like the folks in the gulf but not to the same degree. My heart goes out to all of them but mostly to the folks in the gulf. I really dont think the Gulf will ever be the same. As an avid Scuba diver, my daughter is an Instructor, I can just imagine the damage being done and it pisses me off. I am mad at the regulators, mad at the government, mad at the companies and even mad at the folks in the gulf a little bit for their complicity in the process that led up to this. Yeah hindsight is 20-20 but communities are our best defense against companies ravaging the landscape. We see it up here in the Forest industry and it's the communities that protect the water sheds etc. Gulf communities failed to protect their areas and insist that proper protections be in place. But again they were makin' a buck off the activity so they are not totally blameless.

BTW that beer sounds like a good idea


----------



## Insails

Gulf communities failed to protect their areas and insist that proper protections be in place. But again they were makin' a buck off the activity so they are not totally blameless.



Easy to say that from far away...its been disaster after disaster..Ivan,Danny ,Katrina and now oil...just how much could you prepare for anything like this if your communities went through disaster after disaster....


ZERO you would be flat broke...

Only the Gulf Coast can handle this as we are used to it and strong...Dang good thing our communities here look after each other because as you see nobody else has...


We are better prepared for disaster than anyone.....

would have been easier to prepare if BP was honest from day one so we know what to prepare for.........The blame is all with BP for going around the rules and laws then lyeing to all about the whole mess....That whole well was a crime scene before it was ever put there...


----------



## ericread

kootenay said:


> You shouldnt lose any sleep over BP I totally agree. Its a company and its aims are to make money for its shareholders not to save the world. BP however, has a great deal of law on its side with which it could, if it wanted to, limit its liability to a few hundred million. It will be interesting to see how it reacts in the next few months to its liability issues.
> 
> I think the pensioners in Britian are victims of the situation like the folks in the gulf but not to the same degree. My heart goes out to all of them but mostly to the folks in the gulf. I really dont think the Gulf will ever be the same. As an avid Scuba diver, my daughter is an Instructor, I can just imagine the damage being done and it pisses me off. I am mad at the regulators, mad at the government, mad at the companies and even mad at the folks in the gulf a little bit for their complicity in the process that led up to this. Yeah hindsight is 20-20 but communities are our best defense against companies ravaging the landscape. We see it up here in the Forest industry and it's the communities that protect the water sheds etc. Gulf communities failed to protect their areas and insist that proper protections be in place. But again they were makin' a buck off the activity so they are not totally blameless.
> 
> BTW that beer sounds like a good idea


Well Said!!!


----------



## Insails

Can we dump 107 million of gallons of OIL on KALI and see if you are prepared??...


----------



## KeelHaulin

The problem is, BP was supposed to be prepared! And the Government was supposed to make sure they were; not just on paper (which was falsified to begin with).


----------



## Insails

KeelHaulin said:


> The problem is, BP was supposed to be prepared! And the Government was supposed to make sure they were; not just on paper (which was falsified to begin with).


Thanks Keel...why anyone would want to blame the Gulf Coast residents is beyond me....We prepare for Hurricanes but how can you prepare for human stupidity as BP has shown???..You can't..


----------



## w1651

KeelHaulin said:


> The problem is, BP was supposed to be prepared! And the Government was supposed to make sure they were; not just on paper (which was falsified to begin with).


All I know is here in St Pete Florida there was talk about putting rigs in the gulf 3 miles off of Clearwater beach last year. The residents had a hissy and rightfully so. I wouldn't want to wake up and look out to a oil rig out my million dollar condos window every morning. I would want to keep my view of the gulf just the way it is. 
But you see the problem is that the feds don't listen to us the taxpayers. So now we are getting rigs ten miles of shore. Unless they decide now not to do it. Which with any luck they will. And our limp wristed Governor won't rock the boat because he is a professional politician that can't come out of the closet. Someone push him out already! But I digress!
So you see it isn't like we had any choice in the matter of rigs or no rigs in the gulf. At least here in Florida. 
The Gov just does what it wants when it wants. And it is starting to really PISS us off down here.


----------



## nolatom

kootenay said:


> You shouldnt lose any sleep over BP I totally agree. Its a company and its aims are to make money for its shareholders not to save the world. BP however, has a great deal of law on its side with which it could, if it wanted to, limit its liability to a few hundred million. It will be interesting to see how it reacts in the next few months to its liability issues.
> 
> I think the pensioners in Britian are victims of the situation like the folks in the gulf but not to the same degree. My heart goes out to all of them but mostly to the folks in the gulf. I really dont think the Gulf will ever be the same. As an avid Scuba diver, my daughter is an Instructor, I can just imagine the damage being done and it pisses me off. I am mad at the regulators, mad at the government, mad at the companies and even mad at the folks in the gulf a little bit for their complicity in the process that led up to this. Yeah hindsight is 20-20 but communities are our best defense against companies ravaging the landscape. We see it up here in the Forest industry and it's the communities that protect the water sheds etc. Gulf communities failed to protect their areas and insist that proper protections be in place. But again they were makin' a buck off the activity so they are not totally blameless.
> 
> BTW that beer sounds like a good idea


So you're mad at us down here for not doing it the way you would have if you'd been here, with your oh-so-green "communities" instead of the ones we built?

We're so #%*&^% sorry then. What we were doing all these years was your dirty work, producing, refining, and shipping the heating oil, gasoline, diesel, asphalt, and Jet-A your pristine coastal states were perfectly willing to have, but not willing to take *any* of the risk of producing. So we didn't let you all freeze in the dark, while you lived in Ecotopia and looked down your nose at us. And *we're* the ones who were complicit?

That's rich.


----------



## kootenay

nolatron we produce a good deal more Oil and Gas up here than the gulf states do and I dont think we do a very good job either of holding oil and gas companies feet to the fire when we should. 

I really think you have to appreciate the gravity of this particular spill. It is international in scope. Its effects will probably reach as far as Europe. It ultimately affects all of us not just the gulf states. And yes the industry in the Gulf states, the State governments, the National governments are all responsible for this mess. The sad part is I really dont think it can be cleaned up. I dont think the impacts can be "fixed". The victims are countless but yes anyone who benefited from the Gulf oil industry shares the responsibility to a degree. You can be mad at the government, you can be mad at the State or the companies but we are the people and I as a member of my community have a certain duty to protect it, to speak out against wrongs. 

Am I mad sure I am, I am mad that the Oil companies can "buy" political services by financing a congressman's or state legislators campaign. I am totally pissed that all of those reefs I never saw and all of those fish I ever got to swim with are probably gone for good. I dont know if I ever tasted a Lousiana shrimp but chances are I may never get to and that pisses me off. 

Its ok to be angry about this mess we all should be angry about it. And we all should look around at our own communities and speak out against those developments that have the same potential to affect us. And if we dont we just sit back and take the benefits of that particular industry then yes, we do share the blame.


----------



## kd3pc

Koot and the group...

if this is "international in scope" ?? Then where is the rest of the world? Where is the US in this cleanup? Even Britain grows weary of the threats by the US to contain a British Company and yet we continue to bad mouth BP, call for boycotts, etc...hoping to accomplish what?? 

Drive them in to bankruptcy?? Ruin them? What?

What has been done is huge in scale, and I am surprised that some 50 days in to this....there is no plan or help to protect the marshes, shorelines, etc...
still a bunch of talk and hearings and "ass chewin"....but for the folks there - all this is, is IN-ACTION....nothing has been done to mitigate this accident.

So if we take your opinion...."can't be cleaned up" what do we do?? What Obama is doing - nothing? and then what ...make a welfare state out of millions of people? Pay them for how many years to NOT work..

I submit that this CAN be cleaned up, that it is NOT hopeless, and that the USofA - if they get off their collective asses and get behind this - can clean this up, enact procedures to keep it from happening in the future and to have a plan if it does...

quit politicizing this and taking pictures and get real...

IMHO...


----------



## nolatom

kootenay said:


> nolatron we produce a good deal more Oil and Gas up here than the gulf states do and I dont think we do a very good job either of holding oil and gas companies feet to the fire when we should.
> 
> I really think you have to appreciate the gravity of this particular spill. It is international in scope. Its effects will probably reach as far as Europe. It ultimately affects all of us not just the gulf states. And yes the industry in the Gulf states, the State governments, the National governments are all responsible for this mess. The sad part is I really dont think it can be cleaned up. I dont think the impacts can be "fixed". The victims are countless but yes anyone who benefited from the Gulf oil industry shares the responsibility to a degree. You can be mad at the government, you can be mad at the State or the companies but we are the people and I as a member of my community have a certain duty to protect it, to speak out against wrongs.
> 
> Am I mad sure I am, I am mad that the Oil companies can "buy" political services by financing a congressman's or state legislators campaign. I am totally pissed that all of those reefs I never saw and all of those fish I ever got to swim with are probably gone for good. I dont know if I ever tasted a Lousiana shrimp but chances are I may never get to and that pisses me off.
> 
> Its ok to be angry about this mess we all should be angry about it. And we all should look around at our own communities and speak out against those developments that have the same potential to affect us. And if we dont we just sit back and take the benefits of that particular industry then yes, we do share the blame.


So now it's "we", instead of just "the folks in the gulf" who "share the blame"?

Don't patronize us, we know quite well the "gravity of this particular spill" despite living south of I-10 with no Ivy League colleges. But your gravity ain't quite like ours, trust me. When you take the risks, and bear the immediate consequences when it goes south, then you can dole out the internet blame. Just understand we don't have the patience to listen to it right now.


----------



## KeelHaulin

kd3pc said:


> So if we take your opinion...."can't be cleaned up" what do we do?? What Obama is doing - nothing? and then what ...make a welfare state out of millions of people? Pay them for how many years to NOT work...


That quite succinctly sums it up. They are folding this disaster into their overall Cloward-Piven strategy (along with the bank bailouts, stimulus(es), auto industry, Cap&Trade, Healthcare, etc..) It's been quite a busy 1.5 years for the Progressives; ain't it?

Here's a link to the thread I started in Politics; if you care to read it. If you don't want to read the whole speech by Hayward you might just read the sections I highlighted in RED.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/politics-religion-war-government/65306-bp-spill-wag-dog.html


----------



## k1vsk

RAGNAR said:


> ... the EPA was given incredible powers and authority with which to manage this sort of thing back in the '90s.
> 
> The EPA needs no one's permission to burn off the oil, use chemical agents to either neutralize or congeal the oil, build sand berms, etc. They're empowered to take control of any and all equipment needed to minimize the damage.
> 
> And yet, they've done next to nothing.
> 
> Worse, because the EPA has the responsibility and all this temporary power, the private sector* doesn't have to set up thorough contingency plans.
> 
> Blame BP all you want, but it's the EPA that's ultimately responsible for this disaster getting so out of control.


This is among the most misleading set of statements I have seen here and that includes a lot of competition!

I could ask what comic book you use as a reference but that might be too sarcastic...

EPA has no authority in the OPA, or any other Federal statute, to manage a coastal spill - this area is under the purview of the USCG. EPA has authority only over inland spills. Last I checked, the Gulf of Mexico isn't inland.

There is no provision in OPA or any other Federal statute which "empowered EPA to take control of any and all equipment".

EPA does maintain a list of dispersants from which the RP or USCG can request approval for use. The CG has unilateral authority in coastal areas to approve or disapprove their use. Again, you could not be more wrong!

Lastly, the CG and EPA require all facilities to have contingency plans although none are adequate in this instance. Stating, as you do that "because the EPA has the responsibility and all this temporary power, the private sector* doesn't have to set up thorough contingency plans" is plain bull....!

I have no patience or time to educate you or anyone else here but I also can't stop wasting my time pointing out when people make totally unfounded, misleading and dumb statements that show only the writer's lack of understanding.

My only uncertainty here is why anyone would demonstrate such utter lack of comprehension.


----------



## Ruachsspirit

nolatom wrote:
"_How tone-deaf can they get in DC? They're "considering" a bill to get unemployment comp for these guys.

Please don't do us any more favors down here?"_

Why is it not a good thing to give fishermen compensation. Your objection to this is one thing I don't understand.


----------



## KeelHaulin

k1vsk said:


> I have no patience or time to educate you or anyone else here but I also can't stop wasting my time pointing out when people make totally unfounded, misleading and dumb statements that show only the writer's lack of understanding.


You mean like all of YOUR posts about how wrong I was on the volume flow rate? Guess what; the government is up to a 40,000 BPD estimate now and by the time it's over that number will probably be much larger.


----------



## Insails

KeelHaulin said:


> You mean like all of YOUR posts about how wrong I was on the volume flow rate? Guess what; the government is up to a 40,000 BPD estimate now and by the time it's over that number will probably be much larger.


We have seen it from day one...He can be wrong but nobody else can..All he did was spread misleading information on the spill and flow rate and when called he just went away until the next time he could target someone else for misleading information...Thing is most of what he has said has not came to pass and what everyone else said has and it's getting worse...If we all would have just took BPs word which is WORTHLESS by their own lies then this mess would be worse...They caused the spill by deception,greed and cover-ups and are still delaying to collect more oil..

We all see now BP was DEAD wrong and so were those who apologised ,praised and backed them up.....

Now for a bit of comedy that borders on reality:


----------



## Insails

kootenay said:


> nolatron we produce a good deal more Oil and Gas up here than the gulf states do and I dont think we do a very good job either of holding oil and gas companies feet to the fire when we should.
> 
> I really think you have to appreciate the gravity of this particular spill. It is international in scope. Its effects will probably reach as far as Europe. It ultimately affects all of us not just the gulf states. And yes the industry in the Gulf states, the State governments, the National governments are all responsible for this mess. The sad part is I really dont think it can be cleaned up. I dont think the impacts can be "fixed". The victims are countless but yes anyone who benefited from the Gulf oil industry shares the responsibility to a degree. You can be mad at the government, you can be mad at the State or the companies but we are the people and I as a member of my community have a certain duty to protect it, to speak out against wrongs.
> 
> Am I mad sure I am, I am mad that the Oil companies can "buy" political services by financing a congressman's or state legislators campaign. I am totally pissed that all of those reefs I never saw and all of those fish I ever got to swim with are probably gone for good. I dont know if I ever tasted a Lousiana shrimp but chances are I may never get to and that pisses me off.
> 
> Its ok to be angry about this mess we all should be angry about it. And we all should look around at our own communities and speak out against those developments that have the same potential to affect us. And if we dont we just sit back and take the benefits of that particular industry then yes, we do share the blame.


If your UP HERE is Canada...here is some facts

Top ten alternatve energy producers...Canada is # 9 the U.S. is # 1
http://www.thetoptensite.com/environment-top-ten-alternative-energy-producing-countries

As far as oil production: the U.S is ahead of Canada also
Top World Oil Producers, Exporters, Consumers, and Importers, 2006 - Infoplease.com

so the U.S. produces more green energy than anyone else and produces more oil than Canada ....


----------



## RAGNAR

k1vsk said:


> I have no patience or time to educate you or anyone else here but I also can't stop wasting my time pointing out when people make totally unfounded, misleading and dumb statements that show only the writer's lack of understanding.
> 
> My only uncertainty here is why anyone would demonstrate such utter lack of comprehension.


This POV has been making the rounds in legitimate news and editorial sources for about a week now. Perhaps the sources have taken liberties with the language. Perhaps you are taking similar liberties by being too fixed in your interpretations.

But the thrust of the point, which you missed, in my opinion, is that when government gets involved in the nitty gritty of any industry, the nitty gritty is ignored and things go as bad as they can. This is inherent in anything that falls under the self-contradicting heading of public-private cooperation.

As for not having the time to educate anyone: this is the exact situation in which someone should step up and educate, so as to better public understanding of key aspects of an important issue you clearly feel is being misrepresented.

To state the obvious: I've never said that I'm in the energy sector or part of the apparatus that seeks to impose its ethics and esthetics by thwarting the energy field.

And most important: The whole mess is attributable to absurd political policies that are justified by fallacious references to ridiculous, convenient to control freaks "science" -- what the EPA is and/or will be in the immediate future.


----------



## RAGNAR

Perhaps the thread should be moved to OT? 

(I just realized this thread is under GD.)


----------



## Insails

I love the part about them cataloging the animals for criminal charges...

Nothing would be better than the CEO,Upper management and the BOD of BP all chained together in stripes cleaning up oil in the heat....) 
When animal rescues fall short, evidence of oil spill's toll on wildlife is collected | NOLA.com


----------



## w1651

K1 your back! 

MISSED YA BRO! It just wasn't the same without you here. Even if it was only 3 or 4 days. 
Now I can sleep better at night knowing you are bringing common sense and logic to the conversation.

(Breathe in Breathe out) Ahhhhhh!!!!!!! Life is in balance again.

Bye the way did you hear? It's not 1000 brls a day or 5000. Not 12000 to 19000 either. It's " Are you ready" ? 40,000 yup 40,000 brls a day for 55 days now !
Lets here a hip hip hurrah!! jolly good show for BP!!!!


----------



## w1651

Insails said:


> I love the part about them cataloging the animals for criminal charges...
> 
> Nothing would be better than the CEO,Upper management and the BOD of BP all chained together in stripes cleaning up oil in the heat....)
> When animal rescues fall short, evidence of oil spill's toll on wildlife is collected | NOLA.com


I've been asking that same question for a while now. Why aren't these people under indictment. 
I have an auto shop here in Fl. If I went out back and poured just 1/2 pint of oil into the ground and the state epa man saw it. They wouldn't put me in the jail they would put me under it. Not to mention the fines and alike.
So why hasn't Floridas top cop ex senator Bill McCollum at least started the process? Or our Governor demanded it yet? HMMMM! Ex senator! Governor wants the senate job and is running for it now. Never Mind! uke


----------



## Fstbttms

w1651 said:


> K1 your back!
> 
> MISSED YA BRO! It just wasn't the same without you here. Even if it was only 3 or 4 days.
> Now I can sleep better at night knowing you are bringing common sense and logic to the conversation.
> 
> (Breathe in Breathe out) Ahhhhhh!!!!!!! Life is in balance again.


Jeezus. Get a room.


----------



## Insails

this pretty much hits the nail on the head...

BP is to blame....with this much evidence any of us would be under the jail by now...

BP's 8 dumbest mistakes - The Week

would you let someone with this behavior captain your boat????


----------



## Insails

The "When will it hit our shoars" is over..
no boating,no fishing,no swiming ,no tourism no summer for us
It's here...


----------



## Insails

Here is another matter of when..
Makes Florida look small...


----------



## nolatom

Ruachsspirit said:


> nolatom wrote:
> "_How tone-deaf can they get in DC? They're "considering" a bill to get unemployment comp for these guys.
> 
> Please don't do us any more favors down here?"_
> 
> Why is it not a good thing to give fishermen compensation. Your objection to this is one thing I don't understand.


You might have understood it if you read the whole thing, since you seem to think I'm against comp for the laid-off workers from the rigs shut down by the Prez's moratorium (how'd you get "fishermen" out of that?).

What I said was that the Administration's sending the jobless rig workers off to wait in line at BP for their lost wages is obtuse and insulting--let the Admin. pay them up front, then seek reimbursement from BP if they think they can get it (which doubtful since it's not BP's rigs, not their moratorium).

And "considering" workers' comp is a delay and a cop-out, it would be far less than what they lost, and even then they don't seem in a hurry to do even that.

I don't understand how you don't understand this...


----------



## Insails

Wasted days and wasted nights...all for show and yet they do nothing

again reality is what it is..:
All that wasted boom could have been used by those 2000 boats BP bragged about to skim...But NO BP only wasted more time by using the BOOMS and the man hours and money for a SHOW when in reality they knew the booms would do nothing...

Talk about MISINFORMATION...BP is the most guilty :
Did ya hear the one about the oil boom? | al.com


----------



## knothead

Did anyone happen to catch the Huckabee show last night? I only saw the last few minutes but the show was focusing on private sector solutions to the oil recovery problem. What I saw was encouraging. If this technology works as advertised, then it seems to me that the government should be gearing up to start producing these machines as fast as they got the country geared up to produce airplanes, tanks and arms back in WWII.

Unleash the private sector to clean up the Gulf (Wizbang)

"It was a fascinating show that demonstrated that the answers to this gulf oil spill lie within America's entrepreneurs and private companies. As I said last week, if President Obama had gone on television within days of the original explosion and put out an SOS to America's private sector, chances are he would have gotten far more control over this situation much sooner and the Gulf Coast's beaches and marine life wouldn't be at risk of being permanently destroyed."

Saturday, June 12, 2010 at 8:00pm Eastern Standard Time, Ecosphere Technologies
 (OTCBB:ESPH) will be featured on Mike Huckabee's TV show on the Fox News Channel. The "Huckabee" show will discuss a number of ways to clean up the BP oil spill including Ecosphere's solution. The show will also be replayed on Saturday, June 12, 2010 at 11:00pm EST and on Sunday at 8:00pm EST


----------



## Insails

Knot...thats exactly why BP should not be in charge...They have rejected many good ideas just to delay in hope of keeping the well and recovering oil...

We need our best minds, engineers and contractors on this...not oil companies with no plans but old tried tested and did not work ideas...

Makes you wonder what happened to the U.S Corps of Engineers...huh...I dont think I have read where they are envolved anywhere...


----------



## sailguy40

Insails said:


> this pretty much hits the nail on the head...
> 
> BP is to blame....with this much evidence any of us would be under the jail by now...
> 
> BP's 8 dumbest mistakes - The Week
> 
> would you let someone with this behavior captain your boat????


Exactly and great article. Better yet, someone like that would take out a cruise ship with a few thousand people onboard knowing it is in poor condition and has faults that could cause it to sink. They would also do it in the icy waters of the north atlantic.


----------



## Insails

sailguy40 said:


> Exactly and great article. Better yet, someone like that would take out a cruise ship with a few thousand people onboard knowing it is in poor condition and has faults that could cause it to sink. They would also do it in the icy waters of the north atlantic.


Sailguy, except for it being a cruise ship it was a ship designed to drill. The ship was in need of maitainance and repair's including the blow out preventer . Number 2 in that article states it better...

11 people on that ship died ,some jumped to their death in flames..So BP did exactly that.. ...We talk around here everytime a boater or sailor does something stupid,well this defines stupid and look at the tax payers dollars it's costing us all through the use of rescurces in the USCG alone..

where are those sailors now that are always ready to "Jump the Stupid"...

Does politics over ride their thoughts???

if so.............


----------



## seafrontiersman

I'm on duty right now and working the Gulf as far East as 91.30 and the only oil I've seen was some bilge slops dumped overboard by a "pogy boat" (commercial fisherman) off Pt. Au Fer.


----------



## Insails

Looks like the worst is to your East


----------



## seafrontiersman

*You're right.*



Insails said:


> Looks like the worst is to your East


You're right about that, I just wanted to give people some idea of where the oil actually is. The currents and prevailing winds aren't likely, IMHO, to bring the oil much further west than 90W. That still sux for Florida.

I also know that a lot of folks are swamped with gusses, surmises, and paranoid fantasies from various talking head anchor persons, conniving politicians, and eco-weenies. I just thought some actual information might be welcomed by my fellow sailors.

Best wishes.....


----------



## Insails

Good info,we cant get out here to get any first hand...The waters are closed and those working boats seem to be under some sort of gag rule...


----------



## sailguy40

Here is something I just quoted from this article Along Gulf coast, anxiety spreads with oil - Disaster in the Gulf- msnbc.com , its the last two sentences that make me steaming hot!

"I can't say the oil rigs are a bad thing. What would we do without oil? And that makes some of the best fishing out there. Big fish love hanging around those rigs," he says. "It's a choice we have to make. We have to be to gas-guzzling Americans that have to have the stuff."

Thats BS. Its NOT a choice we have to make. We don't have to choose! THESE OIL COMPANIES HAVE TO OPERATE THESE RIGS SAFELY AND MAINTAIN THEM. This means having a team thoroughly inspect the equipment on the rigs every so often. If safety issues are found SHUT IT DOWN. He is also wrong saying an oil rig is not a bad thing, YES an oil rig is a bad thing if its not operated safely. Why do I also have to read stuff like what would we do without oil? We don't have to stop drilling! I find I repeat myself over and over here. Its just some saying we have to make a choice which is complete BS. I feel if anything that is almost taking up for BP and their lowsey practices. Yeah we do have to make a choice, next time SHUT the rig down and don't CHOOSE to continue operating it for profit.

At last, that is a pretty sad article and its reality setting in.


----------



## Insails

Boats work well too as long as they are maintained...

Same with the rigs..


----------



## TheMadchef

We don't need oil. We need to start demanding and supporting alternative sources of energy. These corporations that run our continent count on this not happening.


----------



## GaryHLucas

TheMadchef said:


> We don't need oil. We need to start demanding and supporting alternative sources of energy. These corporations that run our continent count on this not happening.


What 'Alternate Source" are you suggesting? Please be specific, because I REALLY want to know the answer.

Gary H. Lucas


----------



## remetau

How about we reduce our usage continually until we no longer need it at all. People can and do live without oil. There is no absolute safe drilling method, and as long as we continue to use oil, then we will always have oil spills.


----------



## w1651

Obama is coming to the Gulf today and tomorrow. Then tomorrow night he's going to have a speech on TV. Now that should fix the spill problem. Right?
When are we going to indict these people to light a fire under their backsides to get this spill handled?


----------



## nolatom

Insails said:


> Sailguy, except for it being a cruise ship it was a ship designed to drill. The ship was in need of maitainance and repair's including the blow out preventer . Number 2 in that article states it better...
> 
> 11 people on that ship died ,some jumped to their death in flames..So BP did exactly that.. ...We talk around here everytime a boater or sailor does something stupid,well this defines stupid and look at the tax payers dollars it's costing us all through the use of rescurces in the USCG alone..
> 
> where are those sailors now that are always ready to "Jump the Stupid"...
> 
> Does politics over ride their thoughts???
> 
> if so.............


Actually, none of the 11 casualties were jumpers, all those not killed in the explosion itself, survived. They likely died where they were working, 9 around the Kelly and 2 at the mud pits.

That's tragedy enough though.


----------



## Insails

nolatom said:


> Actually, none of the 11 casualties were jumpers, all those not killed in the explosion itself, survived. They likely died where they were working, 9 around the Kelly and 2 at the mud pits.
> 
> That's tragedy enough though.


You bet...I knew they had jumpers and not much has came out in the way of specifics....thanks for the info.


----------



## RAGNAR

Insails said:


> BP's 8 dumbest mistakes - The Week


That's terrifying. But that mentality is inherent in the notions of government oversight, private-public cooperation, etc. (See evacuation plans for nuclear plant disasters, bomb shelters and drills, our healthcare system, etc.)

What would be the chances of BP and its insurers pulling such a stunt if they knew that they'd be 101% liable to individuals in civil court, there was no notion of too big to fail, and the penal code was sanely defined? Would they even be out there if our government were limited to its basic functions (police, courts, military)?

A little relief:

YouTube - David Letterman - Dumb Guy Oil Spill Top Ten


----------



## kd3pc

"People can and do live without oil"

Don,

I might agree that in some parts of the world, people live without oil...but without oil, there would be very little of a lot of other stuff...heating oil, plastics, paints, foods brought to your door, etc, etc.

While a neat sound bite, I challenge the substance....


----------



## Insails




----------



## eherlihy




----------



## Rockter

I looked at the You Tube vidoe.

Does that boat run on diesel? Was it made from fibreglass? The paint looks oil-based too... they fade like crazy if they are not.

No-doubt the camera equipment, plastic-rich, arrived in an SUV made from old tyres and running on snake oil?

And the meat in their sandwiches, their milk, the bread... all of that came from fertiliser made from cow dung?

It sounds, in tone, just like that stupid nonesense "Loose Change" on the 9/11 conspiracy ticket.

There are plenty of others there on the "bash BP" ticket, also.

This oil is needed for your economy. Without it, you would simply stop.

As an oilman, I get sick to the teeth of hearing this stupid nonesense. Eleven men are dead, looking for oil for you guys, and when things go wrong, in absense of the facts, it just has to be someone's fault, doesn't it?

Never your own, for buying the stuff.

Of course not.

It's just got to be the fault of those dreadful oil companies that find it for you, and die doing it.

Expletives a-plenty to the lot of you. You are a bunch of hypocrites, and full-fed with oil.
.


----------



## GaryHLucas

remetau said:


> How about we reduce our usage continually until we no longer need it at all. People can and do live without oil. There is no absolute safe drilling method, and as long as we continue to use oil, then we will always have oil spills.


Okay maybe some do, but I'll bet you don't know any. I happen to agree that burning a valuable resource like oil is a big mistake. I also don't believe there are really any enviromental problems that can't be solved by the way nature handles it. A population expands until it collapses and dies off, back to a level sustainable by the resources. I had really hoped that mankind would prove to be smarter, than say deer, insects, or even pathogens that kill the host they live in. So far I see little evidence of that.

Gary H. Lucas


----------



## knothead

Rockter said:


> I looked at the You Tube vidoe.
> 
> Does that boat run on diesel? Was it made from fibreglass? The paint looks oil-based too... they fade like crazy if they are not.
> 
> No-doubt the camera equipment, plastic-rich, arrived in an SUV made from old tyres and running on snake oil?
> 
> And the meat in their sandwiches, their milk, the bread... all of that came from fertiliser made from cow dung?
> 
> It sounds, in tone, just like that stupid nonesense "Loose Change" on the 9/11 conspiracy ticket.
> 
> There are plenty of others there on the "bash BP" ticket, also.
> 
> This oil is needed for your economy. Without it, you would simply stop.
> 
> As an oilman, I get sick to the teeth of hearing this stupid nonesense. Eleven men are dead, looking for oil for you guys, and when things go wrong, in absense of the facts, it just has to be someone's fault, doesn't it?
> 
> Never your own, for buying the stuff.
> 
> Of course not.
> 
> It's just got to be the fault of those dreadful oil companies that find it for you, and die doing it.
> 
> Expletives a-plenty to the lot of you. You are a bunch of hypocrites, and full-fed with oil.
> .


Rock, you've been MIA for awhile, good to see you back. 

Please understand that emotions are running high here in the Gulf these days. Just try to imagine how you'd feel with thousands of gallons of oil spilling into Loch Ness every day. 
When emotions run high, sometimes things are said that might not be said at normal times. In times like these, when the very water that you sail in is being poisoned, animals are dying, struggling businesses are suffering yet another blow. People don't always choose their words carefully. Please don't take offense or contribute in kind.


----------



## sailguy40

OK here we go. Some good facts on all of the risks BP had taken prior to the rig explosion...

Documents reveal BP's missteps before blowout - Disaster in the Gulf- msnbc.com

As a gulf coast resident, the is what make me furious. This is exactly why BP needs to be help responsible for this entire situation.


----------



## souljour2000

The cronyism from the political set/ corporate types are to blame here...Result ?..We ALL get screwed...it's like alot of wars...there are no winners really...only losers... Minerals Management Agency was apparently stacked with Bush/Cheney cronies ..but I'm sure there's blame to go back several administrations including the present one...we need oil...for now...this huge disaster just illustrates the major downside of being lazy for some thirty-five years and not doing what we should have...we all have put things off...as a country we put things off till later...the USA should have led the way on alternative energy early on...as we have led in other global trends.....but there was too much inertia and there was money to be made just doing things like they'd always been done...and there were political war chests that were more easily filled by playing it "safe" and not changing...the game is changed now...oil is on it's way out for good...hopefully most of the crony politicians and oilmen- and others who milked the cow too long float out on the outgoing tide as well...


----------



## kootenay

Rockter said:


> I looked at the You Tube vidoe.
> 
> Does that boat run on diesel? Was it made from fibreglass? The paint looks oil-based too... they fade like crazy if they are not.
> 
> No-doubt the camera equipment, plastic-rich, arrived in an SUV made from old tyres and running on snake oil?
> 
> And the meat in their sandwiches, their milk, the bread... all of that came from fertiliser made from cow dung?
> 
> It sounds, in tone, just like that stupid nonesense "Loose Change" on the 9/11 conspiracy ticket.
> 
> There are plenty of others there on the "bash BP" ticket, also.
> 
> This oil is needed for your economy. Without it, you would simply stop.
> 
> As an oilman, I get sick to the teeth of hearing this stupid nonesense. Eleven men are dead, looking for oil for you guys, and when things go wrong, in absense of the facts, it just has to be someone's fault, doesn't it?
> 
> Never your own, for buying the stuff.
> 
> Of course not.
> 
> It's just got to be the fault of those dreadful oil companies that find it for you, and die doing it.
> 
> Expletives a-plenty to the lot of you. You are a bunch of hypocrites, and full-fed with oil.
> .


I would really like to hear your perspective on this and what can be done, what should be done? I agree we all share some of the responsibility. Including all of us who benefit from the industry along the way.


----------



## Rockter

_Please understand that emotions are running high here in the Gulf these days. Just try to imagine how you'd feel with thousands of gallons of oil spilling into Loch Ness every day. 
When emotions run high, sometimes things are said that might not be said at normal times. In times like these, when the very water that you sail in is being poisoned, animals are dying, struggling businesses are suffering yet another blow. People don't always choose their words carefully. Please don't take offense or contribute in kind._

Knothead. Good to talk again. I wish it were about something else.

I am the most pro-American guy I know, but I can tell you that Obama rhetoric, that endless points-scoring, that stupid divisive Brit-bashing nonesense that comes from that bozo is immensely damaging to the relationship between these islands and Uncle sam. Not that it will bother him much. He's got an election to fight, or something. He and that other bastion of approachability and ethics, Hillary Clinton, are not exactly noted for their loyalties to the British in any case, even when our boys and girls are dying alongside Americans in Afghanistan, or trying to make some sort of viability to the economy of the Falkland Islands... we lost another 350 there a while back. Yes, they are not above a jolly nice bit of Brit-bashing there too, not much of it subtle.

Now, cast your mind back to 1988. An "American" company called Occidental. Yes, a platform blew up in the North Sea and killed 170 men, mostly by suffocation. A single piece of paper was missing on a handover between shifts and 170 men died. Can you remember American-bashing back then? Can you remember it?

Damn it guys, I don't.

BP is effectively an American company also... it has British origins.... but it is way dominated by American efforts, employment, and share-holdings.

Uncle Sam needs this stuff, and a-plenty. That never seems to change.

But beware bashing oilmen, 11 of whom are dead. Also, we are yet to see the report on why it happened.

There may have been some short-cuts. maybe not. Maybe it was an equipment failure, unforseen. We cannot eliminate risk from such operations, even on land. Risks are controlled, they are never eliminated.

We will see, and fairly soon.

In the meantime, a little more caution and less judgement would help, and with it, an enormous dose of scepticism when listening to anything that Obama, or Clinton, say.... hard-boiled politicians both.

I will remain pro-American. I know so many of them, and like so many of them. None of them is a politician, however.

Rockter.


----------



## w1651

Well said Rockter

But i think you saying Obama is Brit bashing is a little off to the left. I really haven't heard him or anyone else for that matter bashing the English. Most here know the sacrifice and long term friendship both countries have had with one another. And we support England and our allies around the world.
The fact is if Obama is doing anything it's covering his own A$$ ! This man has been an Absentee President through much of this crisis. In the meantime we here on the gulf watched day after day as birds, turtles, and porposes washed ashore. 
Beaches covered with brown and red gooo! Our fishing, and tourism industries completely destroyed. 
And everyday that British guy gets on our televisions and lies his a&& off. Going form 1000 brls to 5000 brls to 12 to 19000 brls and now over 40000 brls of oil gushing out everyday for over 55 days now.
Not to mention reports now that the company is denying access to areas because they don't want the country to see all the dead animals washed up on shore.
We understand how great the English isles are and it's people hate seeing this happen as much as we do. But the fact is we have to deal with it and all we want is the bloody spill stopped !!!!


----------



## Rockter

w1651 :

It is next to impossible to estimate the flow of oil from a video at 8800 ft below the sea. I will speak in his defence on that one. The estimates have been revised upwards when the oil capture system began. 

I suspect that you will have to wait for the relief wells to stop the flow. They will stop it.

Obama is a hard-boiled political animal, long on rhetoric and promise, and even longer on debt. 

He is way to the left on me, my friend. 

Recently, his stance on the Falkland Islands, and the stance of the ever-loyal Ms. Clinton, have been ruffling a few feathers, none of them Argentine.

I smile...pls stop describing the British as English. They are not the same. Every Englishman is a Brit, but not every Brit is Engilsh.

The company BP has brought enormous wealth, and oil, to that country of yours for decades. Oil is leaking. 

American lawyers are circling like vultures in their air-conditioned SUVs.

At then end of it, on balance, they will leave your nation poorer.

If they get their way, they will put another 30,000 of you on welfare.

Watch this space.


----------



## Insails

There will be more than 30,000 lose their jobs becasue of bad decisions mad by a big corporation filled with men of greed...There have been hearings here and what happened happened...But it don't change the fact that an oil man was such a company man that he risked peoples life's , our Gulf of Mexico ,our way of life, and our fishing industry..The rig members told what happened..They had warnings the rig would blow...they knew the blow out preventer was bad because a technition on the rig showed the the rubber seal pieces to the boss...and he said DRILL ON!

You say you are an oil man...does that mean if you had all the warning signs a rig would blow and people could be killed and an enviroment ruined that you ALSO would have continued with the process????...I hope that is not what oil men do..

Too many eyewitnesses on the rig and congressional hearings where the truth is now being learned says BP was in charge and neglected to do the right thing and fix the problems...This did not have to happen it was GREED and EGO of the one in charge and he was an oil man for BP and made a stupid decision to continue when other enviromental and safty conscience oil men told him to stop!...

The people of the Gulf Coast had no say in this and to blame everybody but the company in charge just because they use a product is WAY OVER THE TOP......

BP spent more on advertising on how GREEN they are than they did for maintainence on that rig(and the refinery accident in Texas was for the same reason) ...When they should have spent the money training their CEO's how not to put GREED infront of the maintainence and enviroment...


The Hypocrit as you say is BP...they are showing through their words and actions that "OIL " comes before the enviroment no matter how many million dollar "super Bowl" ads they buy


If they were sincere in being Green and enviromental conscinene this would have never happened...

reality is what it is...and Millions here will lose everything..


----------



## Rockter

Insails :

_If they were sincere in being Green and enviromental conscinene this would have never happened..._

So you really think that being "sincere" in 8800 ft of water would mean that "this would never have happened"?

The risk-free offshore environment, driven by sincerety and conscience?

Now that is an interesting concept.

Does it work for other engineering, like bridges and trains and ships and buildings and things like that, or just for oilwells?

.


----------



## Insails

Rockter...If you had seen pieces of the blow out preventer in one of your employess hands whould you have drilled on????

there is a difference in good engineering and downright stupidity...

The maintainence record alone proves they should have never drilled until the "Issues were fixed"...BUT THEY DID...\

No excuse for that...Its like taking your boat out knowing there is a 3 foot hole in the hull and thinking ...It can't sink

Being responsible ....that would mean taking more precautions drilling at that depth....NOT going on knowing you have broken well parts...


----------



## Insails

admitted:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- BP took measures to cut costs in the weeks before the catastrophic blowout in the Gulf of Mexico as it dealt with one problem after another, prompting a BP engineer to describe the doomed rig as a "nightmare well," according to internal documents released Monday.

The comment by BP engineer Brian Morel came in an e-mail April 14, six days before the Deepwater Horizon rig explosion that killed 11 people and has sent tens of millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf in the nation's worst environmental disaster.

The e-mail was among dozens of internal documents released by the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which is investigating the explosion and its aftermath.

In a letter to BP CEO Tony Hayward, Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., noted at least five questionable decisions BP made in the days leading up to the explosion.

"The common feature of these five decisions is that they posed a trade-off between cost and well safety," said Waxman and Stupak. Waxman chairs the energy panel while Stupak heads a subcommittee on oversight and investigations.

"Time after time, it appears that BP made decisions that increased the risk of a blowout to save the company time or expense," the lawmakers wrote in the 14-page letter to Hayward. "If this is what happened, BP's carelessness and complacency have inflicted a heavy toll on the Gulf, its inhabitants, and the workers on the rig."

The letter, supplemented by 61 footnotes and dozens of documents, outlines a series of questions Hayward can expect when he comes before Stupak's subcommittee on Thursday.


----------



## MMR

Its not just BP, its ALL parties involved are managing this horribly...just like Katrina all over again..

Steffy: U.S. and BP slow to accept Dutch expertise | Business: Loren Steffy | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

Hot Air » NYT: Gulf rescue "chaotic"


----------



## w1651

MMR said:


> Its not just BP, its ALL parties involved are managing this horribly...just like Katrina all over again..
> 
> Steffy: U.S. and BP slow to accept Dutch expertise | Business: Loren Steffy | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
> 
> Hot Air » NYT: Gulf rescue "chaotic"


Your right about that and the feds should at the very least fire all involved at the MMS. 
But the burden rests on BP and BP's shoulders alone. It is there well and their mess to clean up.Which they have not even begun to scratch the surface of.
I will admit that Obama is a professional politician with no real world experience to guide him or his actions. He knows nothing about life or the running of business or it's little ins and outs of day to day management. he has shown his total lack of ability to lead on this and any other issues.
I will also admit he is not my president. I didn't vote for him or the guy with the gal that said drill baby drill. I don't tend to vote for senators that screw this country up and refuse to learn from their mistakes.
I have been trying to fire these people for years now and this is the reason why.
The people in Washington are completely out of touch and have no idea how to fix and run this country. And I don't mean just your senator and congressmen. Every agency up there is broken and riddled with corruption.
You want to start fixing this and other problems then we are going to have to begin at the voting booth in November.
But lets not vote them back in but vote the losers out!


----------



## k1vsk

Not much changes in this discussion ---

Let's review the above post:


Fire every employee at MMS
Fire Obama ( "knows nothing about life")
I was smarter than everyone who voted for him.
Didn't vote for anybody else either.
Every person in DC is "completely out of touch".
Every Agency is dysfunctional.
Every Agency is "riddled with corruption".

Sounds like the volatiles from the spill have gotten ashore.


----------



## w1651

k1vsk said:


> Not much changes in this discussion ---
> 
> Let's review the above post:
> 
> Fire every employee at MMS
> Fire Obama ( "knows nothing about life")
> I was smarter than everyone who voted for him.
> Didn't vote for anybody else either.
> Every person in DC is "completely out of touch".
> Every Agency is dysfunctional.
> Every Agency is "riddled with corruption".
> 
> Sounds like the volatiles from the spill have gotten ashore.


K1 good to see you bud!

Jump right in the discussion and let us know how you feel. Don't hold back. No riding the fence now.


----------



## nolatom

Finally the President has named actual members to his Commission:

Presidential commission on Gulf of Mexico oil spill filled out with five appointments | NOLA.com

It took a month after casualty to name Reilly and Graham as the two chairmen, and now another month to get these members appointed. I don't see much of a sense of urgency here, despite the drill rig moratorium being dependent on what this commission decides once they ever get started.

Looks like a very "green" commission, mostly academics or enviro-defenders (nothing wrong with that if there were some balance, but no oil company, petroleum engineer, geologist, etc reps who might have some actual knowledge about how rigs should and shouldn't work).

At this pace, we may have to hunker down here for big-time layoffs for a long long time.

More immediate information may come from the CG/MMS hearings already well underway down here, but looks like we will have to wait much longer for this Commission to do largely duplicative, and slower-paced, proceedings.

JFK was right when he described Washington as having "Southern efficiency and Northern charm"..


----------



## w1651

I'd like to see the governors of the effected states get more involved. I wouldn't mind seeing them get some outside companies involved to help cap the spill. 
there has to be a company out there with some idea of how to stop this thing.
This is America and we think of things to fix problems like this all the time after all. Or at least we used to. 

I'm afraid if you want a commission with balance your looking in the wrong town. Washington has been to bipartisen for to long to let that happen. but at least Obama will explain what he is thinking tonight. Whether it makes sense or we want to know or not.


----------



## Rockter

Insails :

_Rockter...If you had seen pieces of the blow out preventer in one of your employess hands whould you have drilled on????_

I wouldn't . No, I would have called a halt.

But let me ask you this...

If I had called a halt, and I was manoeuvered out for being "a disruptive influence" or some other classification, tell me, what would you have done to defend me?

Me that is?

Would you have become the strident champion of the whistle-blower, or would you have been silent?

Oh man, how common are the latter. There are millions of them, all "thinking of their families" or mortgages or some other noble diversion.

In common with the rest of the "outraged", would you have driven your SUV to the coast and gone sailing?

What do you think there, Insails?

Which would you have been?

Could I have reiled on you to be as strident in my defence yesterday as you are in attack today?
.


----------



## pmpcc

Not to totally change the subject but...

I'm in the Gulf - St. Petersburg. So far the word is we're clean (for now). My question is what are the risks to the boat bottom and prop if (when) the oil gets here? Our is in a wet slip in the backyard, hauling out would mean moving it to a marina. Is that neceassry? Anyone been through anything even remotely like this?


----------



## SeaBungalow

We are currently in Panama City and I see booms being loaded on ships to be taken out every few days and now they are starting to deploy around beaches inside the bay. We are thinking of moving on soon, though i'm afraid the oil will just keep chasing us.


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## KeelHaulin

We're up to a 60,000 BPD max estimate; and I think that is still a low number. BP stated that they might be capable of capturing 80,000 BPD once they get a second rig to burn off oil running; so it looks like they are preparing for a bigger volume rate than the "official" estimate.


----------



## poopdeckpappy

What a waste of 22 mins of air time.............WTF is wrong with this asswipe


----------



## ulferlingsson

pmpcc said:


> Not to totally change the subject but...
> 
> I'm in the Gulf - St. Petersburg. So far the word is we're clean (for now). My question is what are the risks to the boat bottom and prop if (when) the oil gets here? Our is in a wet slip in the backyard, hauling out would mean moving it to a marina. Is that neceassry? Anyone been through anything even remotely like this?


I had my boat in a polluted river for a few months. Black tar-like stuff by the waterline. Sailed to a clean bay and cleaned, scrubbed, washed, using a detergent with rubbing action intended for old-style plank floors. Eventually it went off, and left no permanent damage.

This oil is nasty, and it will leave traces for years, but the damage will not be permanent. Nature will recover, and so will tourism.

BTW, a friend in Baton Rouge who worked with assessing the Exxon Valdez spill told me that much of the oil disappeared naturally, being eaten by bacteria, but that the limiting factor for biological degradation seems to be nitrogen. As in the fertilizer we put on the lawn to make it green. In the sea the oxygen is probably the limiting factor, though.

Finally, there may have been an even worse spill, naturally, at the end of the ice age. I blogged about it here Mexican Gulf oil spill may have precedent « Ulf Erlingsson's blog


----------



## knothead

ulferlingsson said:


> Nature will recover


I pray that you're right. My gut isn't too sure. There is a part of me that thinks that this may be the biggest man made disaster that I've experienced in my lifetime.


----------



## ulferlingsson

knothead said:


> There is a part of me that thinks that this may be the biggest man made disaster that I've experienced in my lifetime.


Not counting the recent wars, I'd say you are probably right.


----------



## Insails

Rockter said:


> Insails :
> 
> _Rockter...If you had seen pieces of the blow out preventer in one of your employess hands whould you have drilled on????_
> 
> I wouldn't . No, I would have called a halt.
> 
> But let me ask you this...
> 
> If I had called a halt, and I was manoeuvered out for being "a disruptive influence" or some other classification, tell me, what would you have done to defend me?
> 
> Me that is?
> 
> Would you have become the strident champion of the whistle-blower, or would you have been silent?
> 
> Oh man, how common are the latter. There are millions of them, all "thinking of their families" or mortgages or some other noble diversion.
> 
> In common with the rest of the "outraged", would you have driven your SUV to the coast and gone sailing?
> 
> What do you think there, Insails?
> 
> Which would you have been?
> 
> Could I have reiled on you to be as strident in my defence yesterday as you are in attack today?
> .


First there would be no need to back you...maybe later IF you were called on the carpet...And yes I would have backed you...

BUT you would not need backing because you would have been the boss on the rig so what you say goes....Had he said no drill it would have been a non issue and nobody would have questioned his authority...Nobody would be dead ,no rig would be burned and over 100 million gallons of oil would not be destroying the enviroment...

As far as an SUV..I don't own one my car gets 35 mpg and my house is energy efficient(caulk windows ,clean filters)...So blaming me for a boss at BP's STUPID judgement is not a good analogy for this issue...


----------



## knothead

ulferlingsson said:


> Not counting the recent wars, I'd say you are probably right.


I tend to look at war as more of a tragedy.


----------



## nemier

*Unfortunate*



knothead said:


> I pray that you're right. My gut isn't too sure. There is a part of me that thinks that this may be the biggest man made disaster that I've experienced in my lifetime.


It's unfortunate, but I agree with you.


----------



## KeelHaulin

We need to remember that if this were caused by a fissure in the earth the result would be the same or possibly worse (if the fissure could not be closed). The oil is a natural substance; although the hole that opened the deposit was not. There will be a recovery to the environment but the problem is that the short term damage (in our lifetime) is going to be severe. The severity of damage to our coastal resources (fish, birds, mammals, economic tourism, etc) is a function of the size of the spill and BP needs to get the spill stopped.

I'm not saying that the impact to the environment is non-existent; but with long term clean-up efforts the recovery can be fairly rapid.


----------



## ulferlingsson

knothead said:


> I tend to look at war as more of a tragedy.


I realize that, most do, including the Environment textbook I used when teaching adults in Miami. Many of those were ex-militaries. When I asked about the environmental impact of wars, they all agreed; it is severe, and severely forgotten, or neglected. Modern wars are truly environmental disasters, apart from human tragedies.


----------



## lancelot9898

We want BP to plug the leak but at the same time we are taking them to court and possibly jail. If I'm an engineer in charge of fixing that leak and there are lawyers all over the place, my concentration might be more concerned with legal liabilities than in agressive solutions to the problem at hand. It's always easier to Monday morning quarterback than to solve problems in real time! 

It's the politicians that need replacing!


----------



## w1651

knothead said:


> I pray that you're right. My gut isn't too sure. There is a part of me that thinks that this may be the biggest man made disaster that I've experienced in my lifetime.


 I agree. If bacteria does do the job and I am not saying it won't, then why can you still turn over rocks in Alaska ans see oil? But I don't disagree that there is a natural remedy to this it will just take time. A lot of time. centuries of time.


----------



## ROSA

Last night an old friend, who worked in the industry came over to explain what he thinks is happening and why the leak has not and cannot be slowed or halted at this time without a relief well. 

He worked on the Exxon Valdez and the Alaska pipeline and has been in the industry for thirty years. He was once on a rig in the GOM when EXXON was drilling at 3500 feet. They were not drilling a production well, but a test well, which is apparently normal procedure. BP however was apparently trying both at the same time in order to cut cost and time. On the rig he was on they encountered a similar problem, with uncontrolable pressure. It was decided that the well would be cemented rather than proceed. The test well was totally abandoned, as it was felt that there was no way to deal with the pressure or safety concerns, at that depth. This decision was apparently made after bringing the rig from the North Sea, anchoring it in place, and all other expenses relating to the drilling. Many of millions were lost as their decision to abandon fell on the side of safety and caution. 

In his opinion, the oil is not only coming from the pipe alone, but also from around the outside of the pipe from fractures in the pipe far below the floor of the GOM, and there is no way to control that flow. There is a term in the industry for this type of problem , it is known as broaching, Apparently other experts are supporting the outside the pipe theory also.


----------



## w1651

Rockter said:


> Insails :
> 
> _Rockter...If you had seen pieces of the blow out preventer in one of your employess hands whould you have drilled on????_
> 
> I wouldn't . No, I would have called a halt.
> 
> But let me ask you this...
> 
> If I had called a halt, and I was manoeuvered out for being "a disruptive influence" or some other classification, tell me, what would you have done to defend me?
> 
> Me that is?
> 
> Would you have become the strident champion of the whistle-blower, or would you have been silent?
> 
> Oh man, how common are the latter. There are millions of them, all "thinking of their families" or mortgages or some other noble diversion.
> 
> In common with the rest of the "outraged", would you have driven your SUV to the coast and gone sailing?
> 
> What do you think there, Insails?
> 
> Which would you have been?
> 
> Could I have reiled on you to be as strident in my defence yesterday as you are in attack today?
> .


The fact of the matter is Obama has backed off his campaign promise to support the whistle blowers. And he is even investigating them for their acts. 
what happened to his promises and the hope and change he was elected on. 
Sorry to say this Insails but Rockter has a good point. (looking at the administrations actions lately)
But i will also add Rockter i think that a very large percentage of the country has no problems with whistle blowers. It's the feds that don't like looking bad.


----------



## ulferlingsson

w1651 said:


> I agree. If bacteria does do the job and I am not saying it won't, then why can you still turn over rocks in Alaska ans see oil?


My guess: The oil under the stones is in a wet place without access to oxygen in the air, and that's why it stays. Same thing with the organic material in Louisiana's bayous, hardly surprising, since that kind of material and environment is the origin of the oil in the first place.

Tar lumps in beaches will remain for a while. Machines can sift and remove most, but some small amounts will remain for many years. Remember back when there was no convention against dumping oil at sea? Tar was common on all beaches.


----------



## MMR

Another interesting link:

Morning Bell: How the White House is Making Oil Recovery Harder | The Foundry: Conservative Policy News.


----------



## ulferlingsson

I blogged about it now, Algal blooms in the Gulf of Mexico? « Ulf Erlingsson's blog


----------



## MMR

Thanks for the link! How could researchers distinguish between an oil spill caused algae bloom and resulting anoxic conditions, and the yearly "dead zone" resulting from agricultural fertilizer runoffs?

Links to more info: The Dead Zone General Collection


----------



## therapy23

MMR said:


> Another interesting link:
> 
> Morning Bell: How the White House is Making Oil Recovery Harder | The Foundry: Conservative Policy News.


UN FUC*#NG BELIEVABLE.

Well.......not really.

Too bad though.


----------



## BigEasy1

Take a look at the photos posted by this news organization

Also, just an update from LA. The La Department of Wildlife & Fisheries along with the Governor's staff placed vacuum machines on barges in attempt to vacuum oil around containment boom set up to prevent oil intrusion into Barataria Bay, northwest of the Mississippi Delta. The Coast Guard shut down the operation today stating that the barges/devices were not inspected and certified. Geez, no wonder we are losing this battle. Why not inspect while the operation is ongoing and make any changes along the way. Once oil gets into the marsh you can't get it out. You don't have to be a genius to figure this out.

Photo gallery: Ripple effects of the BP oil spill | KATU.com - Breaking News, Sports, Traffic and Weather - Portland, Oregon | KATU Photos


----------



## Insails

*Big easy*

I wonder how many more weeks we are going to allow the criminal to be the police of this mess...BP has to go!! Since they are in charge nothing has been done...It is a grandstand show for BP execs and politicians alike playing the press grandstanding Lying and empty words....

Where was the Coast Guard to inspect the deepwater Horizon like they do the boats trying to help????

They all run their mouths while our Gulf Dies...

NO more politicians with empty words...we need the leak stopped

Where is the private sector? Where is the Corps of Engineers? Where are our greatest scientific minds???

I will tell you...STIFFLED BY BP AND POLITICIANS....

Time the people on the Gulf Coast and this Country threw them all out and bring in ones who can get it done not just run their mouth as weeks go by while the Gulf dies...


----------



## ulferlingsson

BigEasy1 said:


> The La Department of Wildlife & Fisheries along with the Governor's staff placed vacuum machines on barges in attempt to vacuum oil around containment boom set up to prevent oil intrusion into Barataria Bay, northwest of the Mississippi Delta. The Coast Guard shut down the operation today stating that the barges/devices were not inspected and certified.


It would seem to me that if a state of emergency was declared, the commander in chief should be able to override any red tape in order to save life and or property. In this case, the public property of the marshes.


----------



## ulferlingsson

MMR said:


> Thanks for the link! How could researchers distinguish between an oil spill caused algae bloom and resulting anoxic conditions, and the yearly "dead zone" resulting from agricultural fertilizer runoffs?
> 
> Links to more info: The Dead Zone General Collection


I would guess, 1) by the size of it, and 2) by the algal community, the species, that causes the bloom.


----------



## MMR

ulferlingsson said:


> It would seem to me that if a state of emergency was declared, the commander in chief should be able to override any red tape in order to save life and or property. In this case, the public property of the marshes.


That presumes that the commander in chief is interested in ending the crisis, as opposed to leveraging it.....


----------



## KeelHaulin

Yep; Obama has been sitting on his hands. "Never waste a good chrisis"


----------



## w1651

BigEasy1 said:


> Take a look at the photos posted by this news organization
> 
> Also, just an update from LA. The La Department of Wildlife & Fisheries along with the Governor's staff placed vacuum machines on barges in attempt to vacuum oil around containment boom set up to prevent oil intrusion into Barataria Bay, northwest of the Mississippi Delta. The Coast Guard shut down the operation today stating that the barges/devices were not inspected and certified. Geez, no wonder we are losing this battle. Why not inspect while the operation is ongoing and make any changes along the way. Once oil gets into the marsh you can't get it out. You don't have to be a genius to figure this out.
> 
> Photo gallery: Ripple effects of the BP oil spill | KATU.com - Breaking News, Sports, Traffic and Weather - Portland, Oregon | KATU Photos


The USGC are in a really hard place right now but they need to understand that this situation is dire and needs to be delt with.. 
This is why i keep saying that the governors of the gulf states need to bo doing more and be more assertive


----------



## w1651

How about the governors declare a state of emergency, call out the national guard and deploy the 110 mm guns towards the gulf declaring if you don't like the barges and their certifications come and get them. Or you can as a state just CERTIFY THEM!!!! Either way the barges stay right where they are at.
Oh wait! I'm showing my militant side again.


----------



## ericread

I just don't understand how so many really smart sailing enthusiasts can be so clueless about this oil spill. 

This is an open hole from a very large oil reservoir that is shooting oil into the Gulf at 11,000 PSI. If you have watched the BP response or today's Senate hearings, it becomes apparent; There is no one in the world that knows how to stop an open well spewing 11,000 PSI a mile under the ocean. No one in the oil industry... No one in the research Universities... No one. 

For those whom say send in the army, what do you suggest? Hover a helicopter over the gulf? As Rush Limbaugh said a few years ago, "The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things". The military is not the answer to capping a well a mile below the surface of the ocean.

It's time to face the truth. This blowout is beyond the oil industry's, or any ones ability on this planet to solve the problem. The CEO of BP said today that there are no remaining options. The only process left is to try to capture as much of the spewing oil as possible and hope the new holes being drilled to cap the well work, with August the earliest that this can happen.

In the mean time we are seeing sea animals fleeing the polluted gulf waters similarly to animals fleeing a forest fire. "The animals' presence close to shore means their usual habitat is badly polluted, and the crowding could result in mass die-offs as fish run out of oxygen. Also, the animals could easily be devoured by predators" (AP).

So one of the great questions of the day should be; "Is this a risk we are willing to take to get cheap oil? If you say yes, then shut up and live with the results of this disaster. If you say no, then it's time to demand we make a change in the energy policy of our country.

There are no other choices to make as long as deep water drilling continues to create unmitigated risk.

Eric


----------



## ulferlingsson

Capture it is good. Keeping it from the marshes is good, too. Eric, I think you misrepresent the opinions stated here. There are lots of things that can be done but that haven't yet been done. It's not black and white. (Oh wait, it is, I forgot, oil is black and methane hydrate that forms is white. But you get the point.)


----------



## KeelHaulin

ericread said:


> So one of the great questions of the day should be; "Is this a risk we are willing to take to get cheap oil? If you say yes, then shut up and live with the results of this disaster. If you say no, then it's time to demand we make a change in the energy policy of our country.
> 
> There are no other choices to make as long as deep water drilling continues to create unmitigated risk.


So how are you going to transform an economy that is built upon fossil fuels overnight? You can't. There is nowhere near enough green energy un-tapped to do this. The current green energy in place operates under a huge subsidy from the government (meaning it's not viable). So we should just stop driving to work, stop shipping goods, stop all the power plants? Gimme a break...

There was another choice; it was to ALLOW DRILLING NEAR SHORE WHERE IT IS NOT CURRENTLY ALLOWED. You see the deep water drilling is a result of GOVERNMENT POLICY; not the oil industry. Is this a strategic policy or a "green" policy? I'm leaning towards strategic; and if that's the case then we should continue with deep water drilling and save the coastal and on-shore drilling for future emergency needs.


----------



## kd3pc

Sorry Guys....

there are options, and we should have taken them in the 70's the first time we had the chance...

Nuclear power, South Texas has been idling for +20 years, a new permit is on the desk for another unit...Lake Anna in VA and Duke Power in NC/SC have permits waiting...

That $20B would go a long way to remove the "artificial" prices of fossil fuels...you guys have it abackwards...there are NO incentives for solar/wind/PV...that is why it is expensive...oil has been kept at low price for dozens of years relative to the rest of the world and the risks of production...

That $20B could be applied to our college Juniors and Seniors to think outside the box...NOTICE - I did not say big business...and NOT a Penny of that $20B should go to an existing fossil fuel corporation...these kids are sharp enough to do this...just remove the politics and constraints and let them at it...

But no we will slap $100B bandaid on this, stick our collective heads in the sand like we did during the embargo and continue doing what we have been doing...using the fossil fuels, that we know are on the downside of peak ...


----------



## ericread

ulferlingsson said:


> Capture it is good. Keeping it from the marshes is good, too. Eric, I think you misrepresent the opinions stated here. There are lots of things that can be done but that haven't yet been done. It's not black and white. (Oh wait, it is, I forgot, oil is black and methane hydrate that forms is white. But you get the point.)


I do not totally disagree with you. Keeping it from the marshes is good. But this mass exodus of sea life from the polluted waters is a very scary occurrence. What could have been done was to spend a few dollars in ensuring the drilling practices are safe. But BP didn't do that. BP has consistently demonstrated a culture of risk taking for profit. Now that they have opened Pandora's box, we just don't have the ability to close it.

So which marshes do you wish to save? Texas? Florida? In the water conditions of the gulf, containment booms don't work. So what do you do? Placing sand berms off shore in some areas may in fact increase the possibility of oil being drawn onshore in other areas. How about placing a false sand-based shoreline 1,000 feet off shore from Texas to Florida? That would take months, cost billions of dollars and wreck havoc on the very salt marshes you are trying to save. That's not to mention the damage dredging all of that sand would do.

No, we're stuck with oil pouring into the gulf waters until August at the least, and maybe much longer. And we're also stuck with oil flowing wherever the current and winds direct.

My anger is directed at BP. At all those whom said "drill baby drill". At those whom supported deregulation through laws and through the gutting of the budgets of the regulatory agencies. And at those whom have argued that our best interests are best served through corporate interests, rather than by regulatory oversight. Had the MMS not been effectively gutted by the previous administration, maybe it would not have been staffed by oil company cronies. Then again, maybe the corporate greed of BP was too much to overcome regardless of how strong the regulatory process was.

In any case, I can only hope we learn from this tragedy that the only way to minimize these risks are to require significant oversight. And to not allow drilling anywhere a drilling company cannot demonstrate they can safely stop the flow if necessary.

I used to refer to the Santa Barbara oil spill from off-shore drilling as a worst case scenario. But we just refused to learn from that disaster. I guess we now have a new scenario from which to refer. It's just a damn shame that our friends on the gulf will have to pay for that lesson for a very long time.

Eric


----------



## KeelHaulin

kd3pc said:


> Sorry Guys....
> 
> there are options, and we should have taken them in the 70's the first time we had the chance...
> 
> Nuclear power, South Texas has been idling for +20 years, a new permit is on the desk for another unit...Lake Anna in VA and Duke Power in NC/SC have permits waiting...
> 
> That $20B would go a long way to remove the "artificial" prices of fossil fuels...you guys have it abackwards...there are NO incentives for solar/wind/PV...that is why it is expensive...oil has been kept at low price for dozens of years relative to the rest of the world and the risks of production...


So Obama did not give 500M to Solyndra to build a MFR plant a few months back? We didn't provide 26 Billion in subsidies to an industry (Wind/Solar) that only generates 0.42% of our total energy needs?

The only non-nuclear form of energy that would support our demand is fusion. Still in development and it won't be online anytime soon. I don't disagree that we should have more nuclear power; but remember it was "environmentalism" that put a stop to it to begin with.

Our oil prices are low because it is not heavily taxed as it is in other countries. In countries where it is not taxed at all (or subsidized like China) it's much cheaper than it is here. Your national debt interest dollars are paying to fill gas tanks in China!


----------



## kd3pc

NREL (NREL: Energy Analysis - Technology and Program Market Data - Solar Energy Technologies) shows "bringing cumulative capacity to 70 MW or 9% of the U.S. market. "

not sure where the .42% came from..,,but you are right, we have been giving money to tesla (might see a return) and other manufacturers, but that is part of the mistake...they are going to use this money for their agendas..

Take that money and plow it to the junior engineering students and design/create something new, not just the "existing" ideas...nuclear, fossil, ethanol...something truly paradigm/culture shifting away from existing technology.

And yes I agree it is and was environmentalism that shelved the nuclear power plants, before the facts were in...

good thoughts Keel, thanks


----------



## KeelHaulin

kd3pc said:


> not sure where the .42% came from..,,but you are right, we have been giving money to tesla (might see a return) and other manufacturers, but that is part of the mistake...they are going to use this money for their agendas..
> 
> Take that money and plow it to the junior engineering students and design/create something new, not just the "existing" ideas...nuclear, fossil, ethanol...something truly paradigm/culture shifting away from existing technology.


EIA Renewable Energy- U.S. Energy Consumption by Energy Source

It's appx .42% as of 2007 (I rounded up) of total fuel consumption (not just the exisiting grid). Remember; if we are talking about switching autos over to electric; you must include their current fuel consumption.

The problem is that the renewable sources are pretty much dependent on how efficient the solar cells can be made; or how much wind you can harness. There are physical limitations. Technology has improved; but to produce the amount of power we use you would have to blanket the entire country (maybe more) in wind and solar generation units.

There is some promise in algae produced bio-fuels; but again I don't know if or when they could produce the capacity we would need to replace existing fossil fuel consumption rates.

We should be pressuring the government to finish developing fusion. I heard a few years back that one of the reactors had reached equity (same amount of energy out as went in); so it should be close on an experimental level. I don't know what it would take to make it a viable production source; but it would be the ultimate green energy source.


----------



## KeelHaulin

ericread said:


> My anger is directed at BP. At all those whom said "drill baby drill". At those whom supported deregulation through laws and through the gutting of the budgets of the regulatory agencies. And at those whom have argued that our best interests are best served through corporate interests, rather than by regulatory oversight. Had the MMS not been effectively gutted by the previous administration, maybe it would not have been staffed by oil company cronies. Then again, maybe the corporate greed of BP was too much to overcome regardless of how strong the regulatory process was.
> 
> In any case, I can only hope we learn from this tragedy that the only way to minimize these risks are to require significant oversight. And to not allow drilling anywhere a drilling company cannot demonstrate they can safely stop the flow if necessary.


Again; they wanted permits closer to shore at shallower depth. The government would not allow it. We should be drilling in more locations where oil is easier to get to; not further offshore where risks are much higher.

BP/Transocean already drilled a well nearby the Horizon site; same rig, same capacity. Unfortunately Transocean was also responsible for Ixtoc-I (1979); and the failure was for similar reasons (BOP could not close with drill pipe inside). This is the area where there needs to be engineering changes. The BOP should be capable of sealing the pipe shut when the drill is in; that's when a blowout is going to happen.

I don't think this spill is in the best interest of a company like BP. Their stock value is down 50%; and were it not for their oil reserve holdings they would be looking at bankruptcy. I have a feeling that it was the poor judgment/decision by a few people (possibly up to a VP) who wanted to minimize their expense sheet to look good on paper for their career. The poor decisions of a few ambitious employees has impacted tens of millions of people. (People of the Gulf Coast; and their state economies, holders of pension investments, AND investors in BP)


----------



## tomandchris

Keel gets my vote, our congressmen and senators ( not capitialized because of lack of respect) get none. What a bunch of pandering idiots today in the capital (again not capitalized for a reason). 

We have a mess, caused by a global company, and all our government has done is make it an election year event. And yes, it is Thursday!


----------



## BigEasy1

You gotta love this. La Governor Bobby Jindahl called the Pres today, pissed about the coast guard shutting down his 20 oil vacuum barges. Shortly afterward, the coast guard oil spill director for La calls and says nevermind about the inspections, the vacuum barges can go back to work! I guess they will be certified and any modifications wil be made as necessary on an operational basis. Pretty much a common sense approach when you are dealing with a crisis. Admittedly, I do sympathize with the Coast Guard; they have been burned many times with lawsuits when people have been injured or killed and the incidents fell under the Coast Guard jurisdiction. They are in a no win situation.


----------



## PBzeer

Hmmm: Keeping Up with the Jones Act - Deroy Murdock - National Review Online


----------



## TropicCat

kd3pc said:


> Sorry Guys.......there are NO incentives for solar/wind/PV...that is why it is expensive...oil has been kept at low price for dozens of years relative to the rest of the world and the risks of production...


Cheap oil? I don't think so. When you factor in the cost of ...count them...two Gulf wars, and a foreign policy revolving around oil companies, oil isn't cheap at all.

Yet, I agree with your assessment. Alternatives need incentives.



PBzeer said:


> Hmmm: Keeping Up with the Jones Act - Deroy Murdock - National Review Online


The intent of the Jones act was a Nobel one, yet the work around so easy as to render the Act useless.


----------



## w1651

I think we've forgotten another powerful source of energy. Geo thermal is clean, efficient, and cheap. We have the locations and the fault lines to do it and it,s all god given. 
Hell let's put a geothermal plant in Cheney's back yard. He'd love that.


----------



## PBzeer

> The intent of the Jones act was a Nobel one, yet the work around so easy as to render the Act useless.


Well, yes, if one considers protectionism noble, but the point of the article was how they DIDN'T go around it, not that they couldn't.


----------



## TropicCat

PBzeer said:


> Well, yes, if one considers protectionism noble, but the point of the article was how they DIDN'T go around it, not that they couldn't.


I wasn't referring to the article.

I own a foreign made vessel. The Jones Act says I can't use my vessel for commercial purposes. If I desire to utilize my boat for commercial purposes, I notify my Congressman and he adds the boat to an approved list which congress votes on. With this exception, I'm now legal.


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## w1651

the Jones act is obsolete and frankly in the way. We should seriously revisit its intent.


----------



## PBzeer

Sorry Rick, since the article had to do with the effect of the Jones Act on the spill effort (the topic of the thread being the Spill), I assumed you mentioned it in reference to the article.


----------



## BigEasy1

Like it or not we are going to need oil for a long time. We are a fossil fuel economy. Sure we need to ramp up efforts to pursue energy alternatives but it will take decades to come to fruition. Meanwhile, we are stuck with fossil fuels; not only for energy but for polymers also. Just take a look on your boat and you will find innumberable components that are made from petroleum based polymers; not to mention the hull, deck, sails, lines, sheaves......

So meanwhile, what do we do? Pursue more nuclear, good idea until a reactor meltdown occurs and an entire region is irreversibly contaminated. I know, with all the safeguards it is a near impossible scenario; however, with humans in the mix, it will eventually happen. Then there is the problem of storing nuclear waste by products......we don't want it in our state do we? I am not opposed to nuclear; however, the reality is that we haven't been able to build one decades.

Wind & solar power; great for generating electricity but comparably more expensive and not very portable. And, it will take years to improve the technology, implement, and become affordable so that people can utillize it. I haven't seen the general public racing to car dealers trying to buy hybrid vehicles yet. Probably half of US population can hardly survivie now with the state of our economy. They are having enough problems trying to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table. How are they going to manage more expensive fuel alternatives? Also, don't forget about the national debt; this country is on the verge of coming unglued now with the financial state we are in. I wouldn't count on the federal government to have the means to undertake a massive energy conversion program.

So what do we do? Shut down all deep water drilling? Check out Obama's new commission members who will investigate the horizon disaster and recommend future drilling practices. (Former FL governor Bob Grahm, Former EPA administrator William Riley, the natural resources defense council president, the executive vice president for mission programs from National Geographic, President of the University of Maryland Center for Environmental Science, Chancellor of the University of Alaska- Anchorage, and finally, the dean of Harvard School of Engineering. These people wouldn't know what a blow out preventer looked like if they were standing next to one! You know that their recommendations will be such that there will never be another well drilled offshore.

So what do we do? Import more oil from the middle east. Next time there is a conflict over there and we are forced to send troops to enable our need to aquire oil, the public will be outraged at the number of casualtys involved. One poster mentioned the tragedy of holding a oil coated dolphin while it was being put to sleep. I couldn't agree more. However, it is more of a tragedy when thousands of young men & women lay down their lives fighting in a region to keep the oil flowing. Then the politicos will be on their pulpits demanding more domestic oil production.

What a dilemma. What do we do?

Hold BP accountable for this disaster, make them pay until the Gulf is cleaned, the environment is returned to as near normal state as possible, and people who are affected are compensated. The cost is going to be enormous and that more than anything will prevent oil companies from taking short cuts in the future.

Put the fire to Obama & his administration to treat this as a national crisis. Get the necessary resources in manpower & equipment from the entire globe to right this catastrophe. His blaming BP & former adminstrations isn't getting the job done. If he didn't want to inherit the problems of future administrations, he shouldn't have run for office. He needs to manage this problem and he is not going to get it with a bunch of political stunts.

Reorganize the MMS... and not with a lawyer type that he has just appointed. Time and time again, honest people in the industry have stated that the necessary regulations are already on the books; the regs are not being enforced. Put together a real commission with people from industry and universities that have petroeum engineering programs to investigate the blow out & recommend improvements with a 3 month moratorium on drilling. We have been drilling in the Gulf for 60 years without a catasrophe. It can be done safely with proper regulation, enforcement, technology, etc. Standardize blowout preventers, casings, etc. and have the necesary equipment and procedures in place so that it can be implemented immediately if the need arises. And yes, fine the hell out companies when they are not in compliance and fire the governent bureacrats who weren't doing their job.

Of course, we need to pursue affordable alternative energy sources with vigor with specific target dates, not only to protect our environment but also to enhance our national security. Do whatever it takes, more funding, real tax incentives, etc. Can we do this with our present congress? Unfortunately, I doubt it.

Finally, I must apologize for the rant. I live in LA on the Gulf Coast, I sail & I fish here. I smell oil in my backyard at times when the wind is blowing in certain directions. I am sickened by the images of pelicans covered with oil and dolphin dead in the water. I am sickened by BP's excuses. I am sickened by Obama's lack of action. We are almost two months into this thing and unfortunately it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The most frustrating thing about it is that I can't do a damned thing about it.


----------



## Insails

Finally, I must apologize for the rant. I live in LA on the Gulf Coast, I sail & I fish here. I smell oil in my backyard at times when the wind is blowing in certain directions. I am sickened by the images of pelicans covered with oil and dolphin dead in the water. I am sickened by BP's excuses. I am sickened by Obama's lack of action. We are almost two months into this thing and unfortunately it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The most frustrating thing about it is that I can't do a damned thing about it.


Rant on my friend it's all we can do...
It is our back yard but the backyard is growing in size...as it enters the loop current and heads into the Atlantic the front yard will be polluted also...

Then you will see our anger exemplified as people are effected that thought they were immune or we were exaggerating....

Well BP lied and can hold nobody accoutable for their image but themselfs...


----------



## TropicCat

BigEasy1 said:


> Like it or not we are going to need oil for a long time. We are a fossil fuel economy.


Time to change this



BigEasy1 said:


> So meanwhile, what do we do? Pursue more nuclear,


yes



BigEasy1 said:


> So what do we do? Shut down all deep water drilling?


immediately



BigEasy1 said:


> Wind & solar power; great for generating electricity but comparably more expensive


Got a calculator? How much did two Gulf oil wars cost? How much did our entire foreign policy since the 2nd world war cost? Now take the cost of oil per barrel, multiply times actual imports and add those costs. That is what oil really costs.

Look..I understand LA, like Texas is an oil based economy. Look how well that's working for you.

If I were you, I'd have the BP chairman's hide nailed to the barn door.


----------



## TropicCat

PBzeer said:


> Sorry Rick, since the article had to do with the effect of the Jones Act on the spill effort (the topic of the thread being the Spill), I assumed you mentioned it in reference to the article.


As always John you missed the point entirely.

The Article was wrong. _Jones Act_ waivers are granted _exemptions_ that allow the use of vessels and shipping situations that are normally prohibited. It's accomplished by act of Congress. Here in my little county, waivers are always granted, then again we have more boats here than most places in the country.

Here's the waiver application

http://www.marad.dot.gov/documents/SVWApplication-PDF.pdf

Your sources didn't do their homework.


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## BigEasy1

TropicCat
My point is that there are no quick fixes and every energy alternative has problems associated with it. This country has yet to even formulate a comprehensive energy plan in 30 years, much yet implement it. It will take decades to convert to other energy alternatives at an enormous cost. And we will ALWAYS need oil. Do you think that we will ever see a an F18 or 747 fly without petroleum fuels in our lifetime? Do you think we will see synthetics & plastics that are manufactured without a petroleum base. The list goes on and on. The energy problem can't and will not be solved over night. Just about everone agrees that we need to move away from fossil fuels; however, it is likely to take at least 50 years to convert the entire transportaion and energy infrastructure to alternatives. Meanwhile, like it or not, we will continue using oil for decades & we have to get it from somewhere; we can't depend on other countries to supply us without significant environmental, human, and financial costs not to mention national security. So we better damned well figure out a safer way to do it ourselves. Petroleum with all its associated problems & costs is still the cheapest, alternative. And the only way that it will not be the cheapest energy source is if the federal govenment taxes the hell out of it. When those huge costs ripple throught the economy, talk about a depression. We won't have to worry about sailing anymore because we will be too concerned about where we are going to get our next meal.


----------



## knothead

BigEasy1, Your posts are eloquent, intelligent, reasonable and fair.

Are you sure you're in the right place?


----------



## PBzeer

Errmmm Rick? I suggest you go check YOUR facts before you say something is wrong. An 18 day waiver was granted during Katrina and a 30 day waiver during Rita. But, let us assume only the half right of your answer, and then one could well ask why Obama didn't request Congressional action on waivers.

The point was, help was offered, and it was not taken. Spin it any old way you want, but that's what is.


----------



## poopdeckpappy

TropicCat said:


> It's accomplished by act of Congress.


Nah, obama and/or the sec of homeland security could waive this maritme act, just as they did with the hurricanes.

But even still, if it did require a act of congress, we are 60+ days into the spill, help is and has been out there, wtf is congress and this administration waiting for ??

The answer is; administration ties with the unions and the need to milk this for all it's worth so they can push their anti drilling, anti capitalism, pro environmental agenda


----------



## w1651

BigEasy1 said:


> TropicCat
> My point is that there are no quick fixes and every energy alternative has problems associated with it. This country has yet to even formulate a comprehensive energy plan in 30 years, much yet implement it. It will take decades to convert to other energy alternatives at an enormous cost. And we will ALWAYS need oil. Do you think that we will ever see a an F18 or 747 fly without petroleum fuels in our lifetime? Do you think we will see synthetics & plastics that are manufactured without a petroleum base. The list goes on and on. The energy problem can't and will not be solved over night. Just about everone agrees that we need to move away from fossil fuels; however, it is likely to take at least 50 years to convert the entire transportaion and energy infrastructure to alternatives. Meanwhile, like it or not, we will continue using oil for decades & we have to get it from somewhere; we can't depend on other countries to supply us without significant environmental, human, and financial costs not to mention national security. So we better damned well figure out a safer way to do it ourselves. Petroleum with all its associated problems & costs is still the cheapest, alternative. And the only way that it will not be the cheapest energy source is if the federal govenment taxes the hell out of it. When those huge costs ripple throught the economy, talk about a depression. We won't have to worry about sailing anymore because we will be too concerned about where we are going to get our next meal.


Didn't Brazil become energy independent in less then 5 or 10 years? Now that's a country that don't take nothin from nobody.


----------



## Boasun

Obama & company has politicalized this spill in order to push their socialist agenda. 
His political hacks even stopped 16 vacuum barges for phoney inspections to make the spill worst. EPA refused the building of sand berms that would have stopped or slowed the intrusion of the oil into the wet lands. In fact the federal government has said one thing, but really hindered every protective effort necessary to protect our beaches and wetlands.
I live here in Louisiana and seen these political games first hand. Louisiana has a Republican Govenor and that is one of the reason that Obama's hacks are playing these stupid games.


----------



## w1651

Boasun said:


> Obama & company has politicalized this spill in order to push their socialist agenda.
> His political hacks even stopped 16 vacuum barges for phoney inspections to make the spill worst. EPA refused the building of sand berms that would have stopped or slowed the intrusion of the oil into the wet lands. In fact the federal government has said one thing, but really hindered every protective effort necessary to protect our beaches and wetlands.
> I live here in Louisiana and seen these political games first hand. Louisiana has a Republican Govenor and that is one of the reason that Obama's hacks are playing these stupid games.


And that is exactly why the governors of the states affected need to tell the feds to kiss my A$$. Which is french for no I am not doing it your way anymore. :laugher 
Look we all know that there are games and red tape being played out here in the gulf. But it is time that we (meaning the people of the gulf) reach down and get some intestinal fortitude and tell our leaders screw what the feds want act like a leader.
My governor is sooooo worried about having a photo op with the president because he wants a senate seat that he won't lead.

HEY CHARLIE! THE NEXT TIME YOU GO TAKE A LEAK LOOK DOWN AND SEE IF YOU STILL GOT HAIR ON YOUR PEACHES WOULD YA!

The lady in the fed hearings that was arrested is absolutely right, Why isn't the BP management in jail? Don't the states have a prison system?


----------



## Insails

We Can't sail...

Yet some can..
As oil spews in Gulf, BP chief at UK yacht race | al.com

I wonder if he is a sailnet member...if so I bet he wont post here))


----------



## kd3pc

SO it is OK for Obama to go to a baseball game and not for Tony to go watch his boat be raced???

Sorry, but Tony needs some down time or to simply step aside...might not be a bad idea for Obama, either...

Get them both to step down and let someone who is interested in SOLVING the problem step in...

Even the man in charge of the US team is a part timer...

does this not tell you gulf coast guys something...Tell your states to get their stuff together along with AZ and do what is best for the state...If the feds won't even enforce the rules on the books, how do you think they will help the states....NOT

Sorry guys - along the Gulf...you are on your own, like those of us who want the Chesapeake cleaned up....On your Own...have been for 40 years...and you guys will be too...

sorry, don't shoot the messenger


----------



## Insails

kd3pc said:


> SO it is OK for Obama to go to a baseball game and not for Tony to go watch his boat be raced???
> 
> Sorry, but Tony needs some down time or to simply step aside...might not be a bad idea for Obama, either...


Nope never said that is was OK for Obama to go to a baseball game...

But our favorite CEO should not be enjoying his boat he should be in jail after the lies, deception and fraud he has commited during his testimony....Had any of us lied through their teeth at a congressional hearing we would be under the jail...BP relieved him and sent him home to save his arse from a state prison in the south with "Bubba"...

As far as obama and baseball....no he shouldn't be there and no he should not be playing politics with the Gulf Coast at stake..But he did and every day he does is just another nail in his political coffin....

If he has used this to push or promote cap and trade...then treason should be the charge....

By the way where is the EPA????????? This is their biggest moment ever and they seem to be MIA..

Don't worry I dont shoot messengers and you are right we are on our on but you know what ,the South is used to it.....we handle more hurricanes, disasters and BS than anywhere else in this country...

We will get through this and when we do we wont soon forget those who used it to score political points or pass laws or apologised for BP because they own stock in them...They will all be voted out singled out and the South will rise Again.....

Since this will eventually head up the East Coast you had all best be pulling for us because if we fail The East Coast is next and Chesapeke will be on it's own again ....


----------



## Rockter

*BigEasy :*

_Finally, I must apologize for the rant. I live in LA on the Gulf Coast, I sail & I fish here. I smell oil in my backyard at times when the wind is blowing in certain directions. I am sickened by the images of pelicans covered with oil and dolphin dead in the water. I am sickened by BP's excuses. I am sickened by Obama's lack of action. We are almost two months into this thing and unfortunately it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The most frustrating thing about it is that I can't do a damned thing about it._

Be careful, my friend and fellow boat owner. There are hundreds of products on your boat that are derived from oil, not least your sails, and that diesel in the tank.

But, and it's a huge and inconvenient "but", if those fellow Americans were are serious in reducing the chances of this happening... that is a serious as their anti-BP ire would suggest... then why are they still driving around in their SUVs, towing boat trailers, with a big two cycle motor on the stern?

Why do they drive SUVs, with no legistlation to insist they be more economical? They are classed as "trucks" aren't they?, so that they can get, like, 14 mpg or something.

Yes, they are classed as trucks by the same congress that is making so much noise right now.

I have worked it out, and said it before, that if Americans could drive more economical vehicles you coud cut your ENTIRE oil import bill.

Entire.

In the UK (am I sounding pious now), my own car is a 1.4 diesel (with towbar), that on a long run, with a dry road, easily manages 65 miles to the US gal.

Easily.

With the vast majority of US PRIVATE vehicles managing aboput 1/2 of that, and many managing 1/4 of that and the vast majoprity of US oil demand being for gasoline....then have a wee think about that, and show others that you are serious about this issue, before you make too much noise.

Just imagine there Americans.... no import bill for oil.... NONE.... and all you have to do is drive a smaller car.

What will you bet it does not happen?

If it ever does, then it will be very much easier to listen to these stupid speeches, anti-oil company bile, and this talk of punitive fines.
.


----------



## KeelHaulin

I think there is a flaw in this logic. The military consumes almost as much fuel as the public (IIRC). So at most if you double the fuel efficiency of cars (not including trains, planes, trucking, electricity/heat); you will only decrease fuel consumption in the US by 25%. We only produce ~25% domestically so it would only bring our import need down from 75% to about 66%.


----------



## seafrontiersman

I'm in the Gulf tied to an oil platform in 27 20N/92 30W, no oil here and things are pretty normal re. wildlife weather etc. The main oil slick is about 90 NM East of my position.

What might interest every one is that I operate an OSV (Offshore Service Vessel aka "oil patch boat") and I've been shuttling equipment from one oil/gas platform to the next pretty constantly for the past 48 hours for MMS inspections which are taking place at a frantic rate. My charterer's personnel generally ride me and the MMS inspectors fly from one facility to another.

I've spoken to other OSV skippers in this area and they tell me that they're doing much the same.


----------



## PBzeer

Until someone comes up with a more efficient, cheaper to run alternative for the internal combustion engine, or a non-petroleum based fuel for it (same caveats) we will be using oil for at least the foreseeable future, if not longer.

Perhaps the most vital, and overlooked, benefit of the internal combustion engine is in agriculture and the transport of those products from it. Take something as basic as a loaf of bread. Tractors to cultivate the field, combines to harvest the wheat, semis to transport it to bakeries, and more semis to transport the bread to the store. And not to forget, the plastic it's wrapped in. Without oil, you're looking at a $10 loaf of bread.

Alternative fuels don't just appear by magic, simply because you want them. Until they are a viable alternative, which includes their effect on the economy and standard of living, they will be little more than a progressive mantra.

Another, seemingly unremarked aspect of the debate, as concerns fuel mileage, is the loss of tax revenue from higher mileage vehicles. Of course, one simple way to increase fuel mileage, and one that would SAVE money rather than increase cost, is to simply do away with air conditioning in vehicles.


----------



## kd3pc

In and the Gulf Guys,

definitely pulling for you guys, whether it heads north or not. Just sad to see all the inaction and politics...

See ya,


----------



## Insails

From this article...Oil largely stays off Alabama shores, but BP encounters new problems | al.com
We on the Gulf coast have learned to read between the lines on anything said by BP,The coast Guard or the Government...

That being said this tells you exactly how far this will spread

BP and federal officials have opened a new Incident Command Post in Miami to coordinate cleanup in Florida, where tarballs washed up on Panama City Beach on Saturday. Miami's is the fourth spill response center to open; a post has been operating in the Mobile area for weeks.

Heads up East Coast it will be there ...

kd...thanks..


----------



## w1651

*We already have the alternatives*



PBzeer said:


> Until someone comes up with a more efficient, cheaper to run alternative for the internal combustion engine, or a non-petroleum based fuel for it (same caveats) we will be using oil for at least the foreseeable future, if not longer.
> 
> Perhaps the most vital, and overlooked, benefit of the internal combustion engine is in agriculture and the transport of those products from it. Take something as basic as a loaf of bread. Tractors to cultivate the field, combines to harvest the wheat, semis to transport it to bakeries, and more semis to transport the bread to the store. And not to forget, the plastic it's wrapped in. Without oil, you're looking at a $10 loaf of bread.
> 
> Alternative fuels don't just appear by magic, simply because you want them. Until they are a viable alternative, which includes their effect on the economy and standard of living, they will be little more than a progressive mantra.
> 
> Another, seemingly unremarked aspect of the debate, as concerns fuel mileage, is the loss of tax revenue from higher mileage vehicles. Of course, one simple way to increase fuel mileage, and one that would SAVE money rather than increase cost, is to simply do away with air conditioning in vehicles.


The diesel engine was developed back in the early 1900's to run on peanut oil. But deisel was cheaper so it was used and remains cheaper to this day.
We can use another fuel source such as vegetable oil though and we should be actively doing so. There is no reason to use diesel fuel anymore.

Natural gas is abundant in this country and we should be cooking and heating with it. Not to mention a fuel source for transportation because of the efficiency of it plus the cleanliness of the combustion process with it.

I don't understand all the intricacies of this problem but it seems to me the only thing missing here is political will. How many retirement plans and congressmen have invested in oil company stocks. I bet that and taxes have a lot to do with our dependence on oil. And it makes me uke to my stomach.


----------



## Rockter

keelhaulin :

Looks like my figures were wrong there...

U.S. Oil Demand by End-Use Sector

I stand corrected.

Use less of it anyway.

You use too much.


----------



## Insails

Some of us knew from the start things were not as was being reported...

Now over 60 days in we finally get the truth...

60 days by ALL envolved with the task force allowed this not to be known...

people wondered why the press blackouts??

Why the no fly zones???

this say's it all... 4.2 million gallons a day

BP document: Oil flow could be 4.2 million gallons per day | al.com


----------



## scottyt

Rockter said:


> *BigEasy :*
> 
> Entire.
> 
> In the UK (am I sounding pious now), my own car is a 1.4 diesel (with towbar), that on a long run, with a dry road, easily manages 65 miles to the US gal.
> 
> Easily.
> 
> With the vast majority of US PRIVATE vehicles managing aboput 1/2 of that, and many managing 1/4 of that and the vast majoprity of US oil demand being for gasoline....then have a wee think about that, and show others that you are serious about this issue, before you make too much noise.


yup and our epa which a lot on the right side of the political world want changed or done away with wont allow here. then the "wonderful" department of transportation which we dont like either makes these wonderful crash standards that make cars weigh a lot more. the smart car gets only 60 % of the mileage here

please give us small diesel engines we do want them. our laws just wont allow it, we do it for the environment and for the chilcren


----------



## sailhog

Wife, kids and I saw our first tar balls here in Seaside, Florida today. Pretty small for the most part. No sheen as of yet. Wind forecast is looking a little better, but shoreline contact remains in the forecast. Southeasterlies are going to kick in once the high over the northern Gulf deteriorates. 

After two months of this, I don't think the Panhandle is going to see any significant oil coming ashore, a tropical storm notwithstanding....


----------



## w1651

sailhog said:


> Wife, kids and I saw our first tar balls here in Seaside, Florida today. Pretty small for the most part. No sheen as of yet. Wind forecast is looking a little better, but shoreline contact remains in the forecast. Southeasterlies are going to kick in once the high over the northern Gulf deteriorates.
> 
> After two months of this, I don't think the Panhandle is going to see any significant oil coming ashore, a tropical storm notwithstanding....


Today is the first day of summer. I hope your right about a tropical storm not coming to close to us. I wonder what would happen if a nice little depression from down around Cuba came up through the gulf. Would it push it out to the middle of the Gulf or closer to shore?

63 Days and still no cap on the spill. Yup I am proud to be American today.


----------



## ericread

International effect of the BP Disaster: Just to be fair, we are niow seeing countries around the world re-thinking the regulatory stance for off-shore drilling. Canada, England, France, China adn Bulgaria are all tightening oversight, and their national drilling companies are upgrrading their safety equipment.

"The very first victims were the fishermen in Louisiana," the mass-circulation JoongAng Sunday newspaper in South Korea, where Transocean Ltd.'s Deepwater Horizon rig was built, said in an editorial. "But no one on earth is free from the impact of this disaster."

The Associated Press: Nations rethink drilling in wake of BP oil spill


----------



## Dirtboy

I feel like they sh*t in our playground but its much worse than that.

Fun was the first motivation when I switched from 4 wheels to 2 for my daily transportation back in '77. Low environmental impact was the second reason. Its worked out for me as I still ride a motorcycle as daily transportation; its still fun and low impact. Point is; lowering our dependence on oil is a long-term process that starts with you ..... not the government; you and me. It doesn't have to be a drag, it can be fun, like choosing to sail rather than motor sail or just plain motor.

On a darker note:

Ever wonder what would happen if they couldn't stop it? What do you think the world would look like if that thing gushed for 5 years? Couldn't happen???? Think about this. Those well pipes were made for a controled flow of oil. I understand one of the major problems is the pipes are subject to erosion from within due to the high rate of flow. I don't know, I'm no expert, I do know what I'm seeing and it's kind of scary.

DB


----------



## w1651

ericread said:


> International effect of the BP Disaster: Just to be fair, we are niow seeing countries around the world re-thinking the regulatory stance for off-shore drilling. Canada, England, France, China adn Bulgaria are all tightening oversight, and their national drilling companies are upgrrading their safety equipment.
> 
> "The very first victims were the fishermen in Louisiana," the mass-circulation JoongAng Sunday newspaper in South Korea, where Transocean Ltd.'s Deepwater Horizon rig was built, said in an editorial. "But no one on earth is free from the impact of this disaster."
> 
> The Associated Press: Nations rethink drilling in wake of BP oil spill


At least something good is coming from this. Maybe it isn't all bad if it wakes up the rest of the world.


----------



## Rockter

Dirtboy :

With two relief wells being drilled, they will stop it fairly soon. August is a reasonable guess. The two wells will be steered such that they intercept the rogue well near to the depth where the oil enters it. Heavy fluid will be pumped to kill it.


----------



## kd3pc

Rock

as my son would say....Ye-aa-aahh, ri-gh--t, dad...

3 days ago, they had not even hit the sea floor...and then they have to hit that 20" drill case...and then they have to pump "mud" into it...and then....that is how this one started...still getting methane burps out of the first one, leads one to believe the methane is still an issue...

AND you believe all this because...the Fed says so, or BP says so...

"BP hopes one or both of the relief wells will intersect with the leaking well before beginning the plugging operation."

they better do more than hope one of these hits the casing...

YOU can hope, but I am waiting for the camera to show NO oil leaking...and the cleanup is complete.


----------



## Rockter

kd3PC :

Oilwell design... the casing aspect of it... is what I do for a living, my friend.

The moment they try double-speak on you, we will spot it.... well, most of it, anyway.

This is not the first time a relief well has been used to arrest such a flow.

It won't be the last.


----------



## Insails

Rockter said:


> kd3PC :
> 
> Oilwell design... the casing aspect of it... is what I do for a living, my friend.
> 
> The moment they try double-speak on you, we will spot it.... well, most of it, anyway.
> 
> This is not the first time a relief well has been used to arrest such a flow.
> 
> It won't be the last.


Ixtoc was stopped by relief wells....BUT the casing was not compromised 1000 feet below the sea floor as in this case...

THERE in less chance for relief wells to work....

no guarantee's....They are doing this at MUCH greater depths

more like throwing darts blinfolded....


----------



## w1651

did anyone else notice that the CEO went home and handed over the running of this thing after the lady stood up at the beginning of the hearings and said he should be in jail. 
And who is running this thing now? I don't see him on the tube. Anyone got any info on the new guy?


----------



## nolatom

The latest, fyi:

*From WWL's Breaking News:*

*Judge blocks drilling moratorium - White House to appeal*

A federal judge in New Orleans has blocked a six-month moratorium on new deepwater drilling projects that was imposed in response to the massive Gulf oil spill.  

The White House says it will appeal.


----------



## catamariner

Some really good daily updates and discussions are posted here: The Oil Drum | Discussions about Energy and Our Future

Yes, there is a possibility that things will go very badly and we will wind up with a hydrocarbon soup instead of a sea in that whole area (there are four reservoirs "in the billions" that may be linked subsurface -- or may not). But catastrophic collapse is by no means certain and nobody wants that -- certainly not the oil companies, and certainly not the US or Mexico (or the Bahamas, or anyone else anywhere near the GOM). The daily updates tell you exactly what they are doing now with greater detail than the media usually provide, and with people who work in that industry often making useful comments.

I'm just wondering why they are still using dispersants instead of coagulants to aid in cleaning it up long before it can reach shore... ISTM the biota that "eat oil" should be pretty saturated in that area, and that by adding dispersants at this late date, they are just making orange mousse that is hard to skim and soaks into beaches, rather than nice ropes that can be forked or spooled up. Rockter, you have any feedback on that?


----------



## Insails

now bigger than ixtoc..
So one of the top ten oil spills ever ...sadly like the enegizer bunny it's still going and going and.......





WKRG.com News


----------



## Skipper Joe

They likely have a contract with the dispersant company. Bucks before buckos, ya know.

Truly the world's greatest man-made disaster. Thing is, BP is poised and ready to top it with their other cut-corner deep well rigs. That Judge in LA needs to have a ton of oil dumped in his little private pond, poured all over his pets and filtered through his fancy fridge so he can drink it up!

I am in the process of installing an electric motor on my good ol gal. going to use the LiFePO4 batteries (if I can afford them) to lessen the impact. Going to video the whole process and hopefully encourage you all do to the same eventually. I mean they are SAIL boats with AUXILIARY motors... Stay tuned.

Call your reps. Tell them you are SEVERELY disappointed in the Judges decision and look for them to step up action. If you can't find the number, PM me and I will google it for you.

This Saturday June 26th, Hand Across The Sand. I know there are some of you that think deep sea drilling is a great idea. For the more intelligent of ya, check this out.

Hands Across the Sand | A worldwide gathering opposed to near- and off-shore oil drilling in our waters

I am having a little gathering in Liberty State Park. If ya wanna come out, PM me.

We lovers of the sea really need to come together over this one. Greed, corruption and an addiction to squished dinosaur juice is killing our joy.


----------



## Rockter

*GilStump and Insails :*

Gosh, we are so wise after the event, aren't we?

How much better you must feel to go oil company bashing the moment there is a blow-out in your own waters.

11 men are dead too.

But tell me, and tell me honestly, with your strident calls for changes of behaviour over squished dinasaur juice, how much did you change your behaviour.... if at all.... when you read up about what happened at a place called Bhopal?

That stuff... methyl isocyanate....has little to do with dinosaurs, and very useful, but man did it kill, and kill, and kill.


----------



## knothead

*A US Company*

The *Bhopal disaster* or *Bhopal Gas Tragedy* is the world's worst industrial catastrophe and occurred on the night of December 2-3, 1984 at the Union Carbide India Limited (UCIL) pesticide plant in Bhopal Information Center, Madhya Pradesh, India. At that time, UCIL was the Indian subsidiary of the U.S. company Union Carbide Corporation (UCC), which is now a subsidiary of Dow Chemical Company.

Some 25 years after the gas leak, 390 tons of toxic chemicals abandoned at the UCIL plant continue to leak and pollute the groundwater in the region and affect thousands of Bhopal residents who depend on it,[5][6][7] though there is some dispute as to whether the chemicals still stored at the site pose any continuing health hazard.[2]

Bhopal disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_Rock, I understand your frustration. Where was the outrage then? 
I just wish that the blame casting and political bullsh!t could just wait.

At least until they stop the bleeding. _


----------



## Rockter

Why hypocrites you are.

What utter hypocrites.

You import oil from just about anywhere, including our own North Sea (high quality crude there boys), and the moment some of your own spills on your own beaches, you want a ban on offshore drilling.

Yes, at home you want it banned.

Always at home, Americans.

Always at home.

In 1988, close to 170 Britons died supplying you with this stuff.

No linked hands then?

But today for pelicans?
.


----------



## Insails

Rockter said:


> *GilStump and Insails :*
> 
> Gosh, we are so wise after the event, aren't we?
> 
> How much better you must feel to go oil company bashing the moment there is a blow-out in your own waters.
> 
> 11 men are dead too.
> 
> But tell me, and tell me honestly, with your strident calls for changes of behaviour over squished dinasaur juice, how much did you change your behaviour.... if at all.... when you read up about what happened at a place called Bhopal?
> 
> That stuff... methyl isocyanate....has little to do with dinosaurs, and very useful, but man did it kill, and kill, and kill.


Not worth the ban to respond to this.......
A " Brown Noser" tries to cut corners for a company that bought off a federal agency...and you blame the residents of the Gulf Coast...

Like it or not oil is with us for another 100 years....You or I can do nothing about that...THE LEAST we can do is learn and try to stop this from happening again

But to Blame the victims of a CRIME for the crime is the lowest form of humanity I have ever seen....

Lets turn all the other criminals lose(murderers,rapiest,child molesters and others) I am sure that will set an example for others not to do the crime...

amazing....


----------



## sailor50

Maybe there is something to consider about the Mayan Calendar after all, this worldwide destruction created by man. Perhaps we are our own worst enemy.


----------



## Rockter

Insails :

If you knew the FIRST thing about oil exploration and its risks, you would not come out with drivel like "try to stop this from happening again".

What do you think oil well designers have been doing for the last 100 years?

Do you really think they can stop this from happening again?

You have been using it for all your life. Man, it's everywhere... plastics, dyes, chemicals, gasoline, paints, diesel, bitumen... the list is near-endless.

If you want no risk in looking for it, then stop using it.

I promise you that the moment you do that, you will have no oil exploration risk.

You won't have any oil either.

You, and others, need to get off this stupid ticket of using a product for years, then going witch-hunting for oilmen and the oil industry when things go wrong.

As for that stupid running tally of the oil entering the Gulf, make another one alongside it that counts the number of gallons your nation is using. It will spin so quickly you will barely be able to see the little numbers.

And that nation of yours would stop dead tomorrow without it.
.


----------



## Dirtboy

> Perhaps we are our own worst enemy.


Perhaps? You do live on earth, don't you?

Pogo Possum said it best way back in the 50's: "I have met the enemy and he are us."

DB


----------



## w1651

Rockter said:


> Why hypocrites you are.
> 
> What utter hypocrites.
> 
> You import oil from just about anywhere, including our own North Sea (high quality crude there boys), and the moment some of your own spills on your own beaches, you want a ban on offshore drilling.
> 
> Yes, at home you want it banned.
> 
> Always at home, Americans.
> 
> Always at home.
> 
> In 1988, close to 170 Britons died supplying you with this stuff.
> 
> No linked hands then?
> 
> But today for pelicans?
> .


Hey Rockter calm down bud! 
We are all on the same side here. Maybe you and K1 should get together and have a pint. You know a little Guinness, or ale some good conversation, and a fine football game on the telivision and the world will be right again. 
Hey K1 what do you say? K1 ! K1111111 !! HEY K1 ?
Can you help out a friend in need here. Oh Wait! I haven't seen K1 . Let me go look for him I"ll be right back Rockter.
Just stay here and don't move a muscle.

Ah Ah Ah ! stay away from that keyboard I'll be right back.


----------



## Insails

If you knew the FIRST thing about oil exploration and its risks, you would not come out with drivel like "try to stop this from happening again".

OK so look up Ixtoc.....Mr. Rockter and you will notice the OIL industry has learned nothing,they tried everything that did not work then on this spill to stop it (30 year old technology)....top kill, top hat...EXACTLY the same ...so they drill deeper and they have not learned a thing to stop it since the 70s..

I would say the dumb asses are the oil industry ...and your post back it up very well....You work for them as you say,that speaks volumes ,,,

Let me guess you were all invested up in BP and now you worry you will be broke...well join the millions the stupid decisions by irresponsible CRIMINAL BP caused....Dont blame Americans,blame the source BP, who went around the laws and have lied since day 1..That's real charachater there is everyone raised that way over there???

YOUR HATE FOR AMERICA SHOWS.....and we love it!!

and seeing how you live and waste air on this planet you use oil also and oil products...you are nobody to JUDGE AMERICANS...

THE FAULKLANDS....ring a bell...

All you oil heads have leaerned is how to drill deeper not safer...proof is in the fact BP had no clue how to stop this and tried the same crap that did not work before....so what did you learn in 100 years????...NOTHING BUT GREED...the same greed ,jealousy and hate which drive your post here...

to the iggy list you go!..that way unlike the oil your pollution wont grow)

It's still growing




WKRG.com News


----------



## Rockter

*Insails :*

My hatred for America?

Me?

Read some of the other posts.


----------



## sailguy40

Rockter said:


> Insails :
> 
> If you knew the FIRST thing about oil exploration and its risks, you would not come out with drivel like "try to stop this from happening again".
> 
> What do you think oil well designers have been doing for the last 100 years?
> 
> Do you really think they can stop this from happening again?
> 
> You have been using it for all your life. Man, it's everywhere... plastics, dyes, chemicals, gasoline, paints, diesel, bitumen... the list is near-endless.
> 
> If you want no risk in looking for it, then stop using it.
> 
> I promise you that the moment you do that, you will have no oil exploration risk.
> 
> You won't have any oil either.
> 
> You, and others, need to get off this stupid ticket of using a product for years, then going witch-hunting for oilmen and the oil industry when things go wrong.
> 
> As for that stupid running tally of the oil entering the Gulf, make another one alongside it that counts the number of gallons your nation is using. It will spin so quickly you will barely be able to see the little numbers.
> 
> And that nation of yours would stop dead tomorrow without it.
> .


Ok, sorry but I have a problem with this. You are correct and I agree there are certainly risks and we all use oil. The problem is, this particular oil spill was not just your normal honest risk. So, I won't compare this to flying an airplane anymore as I have done many times, instead I will try to example it with sailing. The way I see it, there are risks in sailing too. If I am out sailing and lighting strikes me on my boat, that is a pure freak accident and tragedy. That is a risk I have to take when I bring my boat out. Now is it ok if I have damaged rigging on my boat and I take out 4 people knowing we could get in big trouble? I say, "well nothing is going to happen", then I go several miles out into the gulf, winds pickup a bit and before I know it my mast collapses. Then I go to start my motor and it fails because of a problem I discovered 2 weeks ago and never fixed it. Then I go to try my VHF radio, and it don't work because I never fixed my wiring. Ok now I have me and 4 other people stranded. Time passes bye and a storm moves in, boat gets knocked down and 2 of the 4 people end up missing. Next day its all over the news. Now is it ok to say we should all stop sailing and not use our sailboats? Then what if after this accident happens, the coast guard and fed gov will ban sailboats from the gulf? Is it ok to say "if we want no risks then stop sailing our sailboats" because of one person who had CHOOSEN to operate an unsafe boat?

The end result, this was not a risk, they deliberately continued operating this rig knowing it was a time bomb. It is not right to state we should all stop using oil because BP had CHOOSEN to operate with numerous safety issues. I will post this link once again....

Documents reveal BP's missteps before blowout - Disaster in the Gulf- msnbc.com

I have been following this oil spill since day one like white on rice. I care, I really do, this is the area I was born and raised in my entire life. I have never seen anything like this in my life, ever. This is the worst enviornmental disaster in history. The entire Gulf Coast community knows the truth, we all know the truth about this. Its all over the news, the internet, articles, news paper, even a BP employee has came forward. I mean how much more evidence do we need? No matter what anyone says, I have read enough and know the truth. This said, its not just BPs fault, part falls on the fed governement. They need to put more strict regulations in place, Obama has even stated we need to put strict regulations on the operation of these rigs if what we have is not efficient.


----------



## sailguy40

Rockter said:


> Why hypocrites you are.
> 
> What utter hypocrites.
> 
> You import oil from just about anywhere, including our own North Sea (high quality crude there boys), and the moment some of your own spills on your own beaches, you want a ban on offshore drilling.
> 
> Yes, at home you want it banned.
> 
> Always at home, Americans.
> 
> Always at home.
> 
> In 1988, close to 170 Britons died supplying you with this stuff.
> 
> No linked hands then?
> 
> But today for pelicans?
> .


Well if drilling for oil is going to be done unsafe and with faulty equipment then maybe it should be banned, well ban the ones responsible. Its just not fair to ban all of it for the fault and poor decisions of BP operation. Instead they choose to continue opertating that rig for the profit, all the while knowing of all the safety issues. More realistic and easier then to ban oil is to drill for the oil but just do it safe, if any safety issues come up, STOP the drilling, FIX them BEFORE you have a major accident.

Here is yet another article. I will quote some interesting facts directly from it...

"Yet relatives of workers who are presumed dead claim that the oil behemoth BP and rig owner TransOcean violated "numerous statutes and regulations" issued by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration and the U.S. Coast Guard, according to a lawsuit filed by Natalie Roshto, whose husband Shane, a deck floor hand, was thrown overboard by the force of the explosion and whose body has not yet been located.

Both companies failed to provide a competent crew, failed to properly supervise its employees and failed to provide Rushto with a safe place to work, according to the complaint filed in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana. The lawsuit also names oil-services giant Halliburton as a defendant, claiming that the company "prior to the explosion, was engaged in cementing operations of the well and well cap and, upon information and belief, improperly and negligently performed these duties, which was a cause of the explosion."

BP and TransOcean have also aggressively opposed new safety regulations proposed last year by a federal agency that oversees offshore drilling -- which were prompted by a study that found many accidents in the industry."

This full article can be found right here...

Big Oil Fought Off New Safety Rules Before Rig Explosion

Oh and please note the title of that article. Its says BEFORE rig explosion.


----------



## kd3pc

Sailguy and the group....

the big nickel corporate word for all that is "cost avoidance" 

GE and large companies like them, some of the big oil companies, defer or avoid spending money no matter the risk....each and every day they DON'T spend money is just more profit. When something does break, ala the blowout preventer - they then jump on it and play the blame game...again avoiding paying the repair/mitigation costs....

same ole, same ole...they care not about risk or problems..


----------



## w1651

kd3pc said:


> Sailguy and the group....
> 
> the big nickel corporate word for all that is "cost avoidance"
> 
> GE and large companies like them, some of the big oil companies, defer or avoid spending money no matter the risk....each and every day they DON'T spend money is just more profit. When something does break, ala the blowout preventer - they then jump on it and play the blame game...again avoiding paying the repair/mitigation costs....
> 
> same ole, same ole...they care not about risk or problems..


And whats the governments excuse? They have completely dropped the ball here. Last night the news said the berms in LA had to be stopped because the EPA said they didn't have enough permits. WHAT? uke

I just want Bobby Jindal to call out the national guard and the next time the epa comes calling pull a revolver and make them dance right there on the beach.
I have had enough of these A$$ Holes to last me the rest of my life. It's like the EPA doesn't want this thing fixed or cleaned up. They are no longer assets but liabilities.
uke Excuse me got a little oil with that oyster


----------



## kd3pc

W,
candid, forthright

but dead on..

thanks for adding the Feds to the "avoidance" game...

EPA has no business in this crisis....period. The damage is done, EPA should have stepped up and questioned the dispersant and toxicity, both now and down the line.. Not APPROVED it, then had second thoughts, then nothing...

Likely one of the most useless orgs on the planet, next to the UN...


----------



## therapy23

Don't forget, the bottom line is that US government employees did not do their job in insuring laws and regulations were followed.

It is the government's fault in the end.

Find those guys (and gals) and hang them for the deaths. Their bosses too.


----------



## Skipper Joe

Rockter said:


> *GilStump and Insails :*
> 
> Gosh, we are so wise after the event, aren't we?
> 
> How much better you must feel to go oil company bashing the moment there is a blow-out in your own waters.
> 
> 11 men are dead too.
> 
> But tell me, and tell me honestly, with your strident calls for changes of behaviour over squished dinasaur juice, how much did you change your behaviour.... if at all.... when you read up about what happened at a place called Bhopal?
> 
> That stuff... methyl isocyanate....has little to do with dinosaurs, and very useful, but man did it kill, and kill, and kill.


Naw, I been wise for years, Pal. Been commuting by bike for quite some time. Never believed in Clean Coal, or Safe Nuclear Energy. Have vehemently opposed off-shore drilling since I was old enough to understand. I always try to conserve energy, take my own bags to the store and warm my home with the burning bodies of snooty, self absorbed british chemical workers. Ah, so toasty. uke


----------



## Rockter

*Sailguy40 :*

_The entire Gulf Coast community knows the truth, we all know the truth about this. Its all over the news, the internet, articles, news paper, even a BP employee has came forward. I mean how much more evidence do we need? No matter what anyone says, I have read enough and know the truth. _

What a load of utter garbage.

You haven't a clue what happened.

You have been feeding on rumour and innuendo, and you call it the "truth".

OK Sailguy, tell us what happened. Spell it out. The sequence of events will be vital to come to a conclusion. You will need the timings and the evidence.

Go ahead. Spell out the "truth".

11 men are dead.

Do them the courtesy of waiting for the enquiry... you know, where they will look at the avialable evidence, and see how related it is to the outcome.... stuff like that.

And be careful with the blame game because you have not got a clue why this happened. It's great to attach blame though, isn't it? All those dead men, and they cannot defend themselves. I mean they just HAD to have been reckless, handn't they? I mean accidents just don't happen in the Gulf, do they? Elsewhere I have seen them, but they just don't happen in the Gulf.

And as for citing the wording of a pending lawsuit. What on earth does that prove? 
.


----------



## sailguy40

@Rockter, look I don't want to start a flame war here or anything and I am not trying to make you sound like an idiot for expressing your opinion. I do respect you from fellow sailor to sailor so don't take it all the wrong way but I am confused at what you are trying to say here. You obviously feel the need to defend for BP yet you mention the 11 men who died. It makes no sense. BP are the ones who put their own employees at risk, there has been proof of this time and time again. Since you say the other article was just stating a pending lawsuit, here is yet another article and this one is direct from MSNBC... Documents reveal BP's missteps before blowout - Disaster in the Gulf- msnbc.com

Now read exactly what this says...

*"Documents reveal BP's missteps before blowout"* *"Oil giant engineer describes 'nightmare well' six days before rig explosion"*

So you think it is OK for an oil company to operate an oil rig in this condition? This is all ok with you and you feel it was just an accident? This is not all just "rumors" they actually have documents showing this.

I live in Louisiana ok, I know the truth so don't try to feed me the accident excuse, I am not buying it captain. I watch, read and listen and you can do the same as I don't have time to keep posting links about all this. Oh and since you don't know, no one on the gulf coast is buying this kind of excuse especially the families of the 11 men you feel is necessary to mention here. I have watched them in LIVE news videos on my very local stations ok, those were some VERY upset people. It was sad. If you are not down here in the gulf coast dealing with all of this, you really have no idea what is going on here.

Oh and here is another sad article and this just happened...
Gulf oil spill: Suicide is called 12th casualty of BP oil spill - latimes.com

This is what is going on all around us down here. There is a lot of information out there regarding this disaster. Oh and if for some reason I am getting the wrong impression from you I do apoligize and please don't hesitate but to clarify yourself. I do realize you have a right to your own opinion.

This all said, happy sailing man and no matter what happens, I just hope the oil at least gets cleaned up some. I am afraid it will take so long, I may never get to even sail in the gulf not to mention enjoy all of the nice gulf islands and gulf coast beaches.


----------



## Petar

*Calm down everyone!!*

It is just a little organic matter on the beaches nobody swims or sunbathes on anyway. how many barrels of oil was spilled in Iraq and nobody asked a question? how many people were killed in iraq and nobody asked a question? we send people to moon and back, to space and back and are incapable of plugging a hole on earth?? why don't we use all that technology to plug a hole and send a bill to BP to pay for it? because we like news and we like to see CEOs sweating and stuttering on TV. it is best of drugs , better than sex for most of north americans. Anderson Cooper and Snajay Gupta suddenly our best friends and Tony Hayward worst than Sadam. Go sailing people. Oil will disperse, birds will fly again, you will continue to be grossly overweight and in need to drive enormous SUVs and pickup trucks that need OIL to move. You will buy it from ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco, Shell, ConocoPhillips, all of which will most probably profit from BPs fallout. Who is next? When will it happen?:laugher


----------



## Rockter

*Sailguy40 :*

_I live in Louisiana ok, I know the truth _

Well man, I spend all day designing the casings for oil wells, and other bits of oil wells, and I don't know the truth.

I am waiting for the report.

It's not a bad idea to wait for the report, that way all the evidence will be presented.

Even then, it won't be the full story, because a bunch of the best witnesses are dead.

It really is best to avoid talk of conspiracy and selective information from websites that talk of "Big Oil" like it were Harvey lee Oswald, or something.

Such information is laced with innuenda and proves nothing. "Nightmare Well" is common parlance in the oil industry. I have heard that many times.

A typical oil welll costs about £30 million, often more, takes about a year to plan and about 4 months to execute. It is a monumental effort, and the engineering services to make it work are legion. None drill without problems and setbacks. Pipe gets stuck, casings can be difficult to run, pressures are often very high.... 14,000 psi perhaps.... and temperatures, often 375 F. That is the nature of deep hydrocarbons.

Things always go wrong. Always. When there are setbacks, then the term "nightmare well" is used by some. Some people have bad dreams, some have nightmares. It is evidence of things having gone wrong as they always do. To others, it becomes "truth". It already is truth.

And, if you know the real "truth" (I don't), then spelll it out here. No website links. You know the truth. Spell it out here. In detail, and chronology.

What happened with that well?


----------



## Insails

Petar said:


> It is just a little organic matter on the beaches nobody swims or sunbathes on anyway. how many barrels of oil was spilled in Iraq and nobody asked a question? how many people were killed in iraq and nobody asked a question? we send people to moon and back, to space and back and are incapable of plugging a hole on earth?? why don't we use all that technology to plug a hole and send a bill to BP to pay for it? because we like news and we like to see CEOs sweating and stuttering on TV. it is best of drugs , better than sex for most of north americans. Anderson Cooper and Snajay Gupta suddenly our best friends and Tony Hayward worst than Sadam. Go sailing people. Oil will disperse, birds will fly again, you will continue to be grossly overweight and in need to drive enormous SUVs and pickup trucks that need OIL to move. You will buy it from ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco, Shell, ConocoPhillips, all of which will most probably profit from BPs fallout. Who is next? When will it happen?:laugher


You must be kidding...OR you don't know your geography..
The Gulf Coast Beaches are some of the prettiest in the WORLD.Tourism is our industry and it is gone thanks to GREED by a company that has shown no regard for anything they do but make money...BP's safty record tells the tale.
Maybe it will be your area of the world next?...oil and death everywhere...ever smelt that [email protected]???. I seriously hope the United States siezes all of BP's assets in this country and uses the revenue to rebuild the coast before BP chickens out of their responsibility and files bankruptcy
..and speak of wars over oil...Your country is no saint, how many Argentinian's have YOU killed for oil in the Faulklands?????????

Me thinks you are mad because you lost a dividend.......

I would love to go sailing but I cant because BP put oil everywhere I sail...the waters are closed but you can bet your backside BP will pay for loss of my boat and the marina bills so don't look for a dividend anytime soon...


----------



## Insails

What happened with that well? someone asked..

They drilled deeper than the permit allowed and delt with pressures never seen before..BP was warned by Haliburton to let the cement in the plug set..THEY did not and the equipment could not handle the pressure at that depth and it went bang!!!! and YOUR casing is broke beneath the surface of the seabed thanks to BP putting it under pressure it should not have been under...

was no accident ......they had warning and continued, ALL on the rig said that...I guess they are liars??


----------



## Rockter

*Insails :*

_how many Argentinian's have YOU killed for oil in the Faulklands?????????_

What a load of utter drivel.

The Falkland's conflict was in 1982, with no sign that there would be oil on that continental shelf. Oil was first discovered there about 6 weeks ago.

Your comments read like something out of Andy Pandy and Looby Lou, with a bit of Jane Fonda thrown in.

And when you file for compensation, make sure you claim for the fuel in the tank, the varnish on the wood, the paint on the hull, the polyesther resin in the fibreglass and the O-rings in the John. Mark them up 40 or 50 times. After all, since BP put them there, they must be responsible for your emotional trauma that you can't use them.
.


----------



## Insails

seems the market knows who was at fault.....
BP shares fall sharply in London trading as oil spill costs increase | al.com


----------



## w1651

Let's see here. 
BP safety record is the worst in the United States
Their CEO left after congressional hearings and appointed another fall guy.
11 men dead and the survivors saying BP new about the problems and concerns with the well.
worst ecological disaster in US history.
Many birds and animals off the extinction list now may be put back on it.
Can't plug the leak and Oil on beaches.
Can't build berms because can't get permits.
Tourism Gone.
Fishing industry Gone.
Feds completely ineffective and utterly corrupted.
Congress ineffective.
White House on vacation.
Don't worry Obamas on the job. YIKES!!! 
Slick heading south towards the keys.
Tropical depression will go through gulf maybe this weekend stirring it up.

Ya Rockter your right. Let's wait and see what's on the report being done on this thing says.
Has anyone gotten that revolver to the governor yet?


----------



## w1651

Rockter said:


> *Insails :*
> 
> [
> And when you file for compensation, make sure you claim for the fuel in the tank, the varnish on the wood, the paint on the hull, the polyesther resin in the fibreglass and the O-rings in the John. Mark them up 40 or 50 times. After all, since BP put them there, they must be responsible for your emotional trauma that you can't use them.
> .


Compensation?

Can we just plug the BLOODY LEAK PLEASE!

I think we will all wait for the compensation just plug the fricken leak.....


----------



## Rockter

Do you think that there is one wasted moment, one wasted effort to try to stop this leak?

Each day that passes, oilmen are squirming just as much as the rest of us.

The relief wells will stop it.

It is the last card to play, but it is quite a card, and I have never heard yet of it not working.

But it is best not to beat on one oil company until you have the facts.

They all look for oil, they all drill for it, and they all use very similar designs, and very similar techniques.

And they all take risks.

They have to.

All of them.


----------



## sailingdog

Rockter—

I'd point out that BP skipped a few steps that are generally considered necessary, and went with designs that are considered less than optimal. They did so to save some money and speed up the time to when the well would go into production, took a major gamble as evidenced by their own internal e-mails, and lost... and the Gulf Coast of the US is paying most of the price, not BP.


----------



## Rockter

Sailingdog :

Greetings. It's been a while.

There is no such thing as an "optimal" design in an oil well. It simply does not exist. If by "optimal" you mean "strongest", you will be using tubulars and casings as thick as gun barrel, and no rig will be able to lift them. Also, the tubulars will have so much wall thickness, that the final diameter will be like a drinking straw, and, at (like) 5 miles long, nothing of any meaningful flow rate will be able to move through it.

This is the over-riding compromise of the well designer. The designers want to use very thick-walled and very tough materials, but they get so damn heavy, and the hole sizes get so small, that it is not practical.... the well simply gets too narrow and it is not workable.

So they have to weigh risk. 

And then men (and women) 100 at a time have to stand on top of the well while it is constructed, and flowing.

They take quite a risk to supply you with this oil.

If anything serious goes wrong, there is little time to get away, and they die, often by burning and suffocation.

Before the do-gooders on this website (and elsewhere) read out their "wise after the event" speeches and go beating on oil companies and oilmen, they ought to remember that.

I can tell you there Saildog, they don't give us a passing thought when they are fuelling their car or their boat.

Not a chance.

At that moment, it's a combustible liquid going into a tank.

They spare us not one damn thought.

And now, with 11 men dead, all they think of is their damn lawsuits, the stress of their boats lying idle, and at least one of them absloutely slavering over the idea of liquidating an oil company and putting 30,000 Americans on welfare.

.


----------



## Insails

11 men died.....our men,our workers from our Gulf Coast..Why...Company Greed...Dont dare blame anyone else..

BP killed them ...that simple


----------



## sailguy40

Rockter said:


> *Sailguy40 :*
> A typical oil welll costs about £30 million, often more, takes about a year to plan and about 4 months to execute. It is a monumental effort, and the engineering services to make it work are legion. None drill without problems and setbacks. Pipe gets stuck, casings can be difficult to run, pressures are often very high.... 14,000 psi perhaps.... and temperatures, often 375 F. That is the nature of deep hydrocarbons.
> 
> Things always go wrong. Always. When there are setbacks, then the term "nightmare well" is used by some. Some people have bad dreams, some have nightmares. It is evidence of things having gone wrong as they always do. To others, it becomes "truth". It already is truth.


I really don't know why you keep asking me to spell out the truth. Some websites can be pretty off the wall with some things they say but I quoted you a link directly from MSNBC. If a major news provider would post articles up there with false information like this, they would have as many lawsuits against them as BP. They have documents right there, these people are not just making this up. Ok, here is actually a LIVE news video...

If anyone here has not watched this, I encourage you to do so...
NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams: News and videos from the evening broadcast NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams: News and videos from the evening broadcast- msnbc.com


----------



## Rockter

Insails :

You will find that the well was designed by Americans, planned by Americans, and built by Americans.

Americans died too.

You are clearly in the blame game.

I am not blaming anyone until I see the enquiry.

If you feel so strongly about it, then just stop using oil.

It will make you feel so much better while you wait for the truth.
.


----------



## Insails

Rockter said:


> Insails :
> 
> You will find that the well was designed by Americans, planned by Americans, and built by Americans.
> 
> Americans died too.
> 
> You are clearly in the blame game.
> 
> I am not blaming anyone until I see the enquiry.
> 
> If you feel so strongly about it, then just stop using oil.
> 
> It will make you feel so much better while you wait for the enquiry.


Thats a laugh...you have blamed consumers from post one...All you have posted about is BLAME...and that has been to BLAME everyone but BP...read your own post....DUH!!!


----------



## kd3pc

Rock wrote "The relief wells will stop it."

a lot of assumptions in those 6 little words...

trying to hit a 18" casing, that may be ruptured underground with two more drill heads 5000' BSL....kind of like hitting the vein in my arm with a .22 at 100 yds....and oh by the way you can't go but so deep or so hard mr .22...

I would love to share your optimism...but being the realist that I am, it's tough.

BP said they would have the 2 wells completed by Aug...(didn't say what year, everyone assumes this one) yet as of a day ago they have only positioned one rig, and had a stinger almost to 5000'...seems kind of slow progress. Even by their own admission they had a 50-50 chance of "hitting the casing"

that leaves say 50-60 days to complete the drill, cement and prepare...??

Yeah, right...50 more days of 25,000 barrels +....


----------



## kd3pc

This bothers me too:

"A typical oil welll costs about £30 million, often more, takes about a year to plan and about 4 months to execute. "

So with the relief wells they are cramming 16 months of planning in to 2 months of doing.....??? OR are they just wingin' it as we say in drag racing...

4 months sounds more realistic to me for drilling ONE well...why do they keep saying they will have two distinct, each from a different direction DONE by August....and not a thought of what a hurricane or tropical storm will do...

Thoughts, or did I miss something...

For me, this is still a LOT of talk by BP and the Pres....they really need to start DOING...


----------



## Rockter

*kd3pc :*

The relief well is steered toward the target by directional drilling. Fortunately, the high iron content of the existing casing leads to a magnetic anomaly that assists in the accuracy of the final approach. The equipment near to the relief well drilling bit is sensing that.

What also helps, is that the well blowing out will have been surveyed and its trajectory mapped in 3D.

This is a legal requirement.

They will get very close to it.

On your point about "cramming", they will be raiding the planned inventory of every welll under the sun to escape the long lead times (for casing, typically about a year) for the manufacture of the equipment. They will give that absolute priority. All planned wells will be secondary to that aim, and the inventory raided.

Also, the relief wells will be tackling familiar geology, and there will be lessons learned, of course.

This favours the control of risk.

.


----------



## Insails

needs to be watched...
reality


----------



## Rockter

Gosh, isn't she so impressive?

Even-handed, objective, and totally without bias or cynicism.

The frequent injection of humour, tee hee hee, and all before an audience that cackles appreciatively at every body swagger and sick joke.

She finds the situation so funny I could almost laugh.

What a load of utter drivel from start to finish.

No doubt she thinks this nonesense is helping the situation?


----------



## Insails

Rockter said:


> Gosh, isn't she so impressive?
> 
> Even-handed, objective, and totally without bias or cynicism.
> 
> The frequent injection of humour, tee hee hee, and all before an audience that cackles appreciatively at every body swagger and sick joke.
> 
> She finds the situation so funny I could almost laugh.
> 
> What a load of utter drivel from start to finish.
> 
> No doubt she thinks this nonesense is helping the situation?


She is alot more sensative and caring and IMPRESSIVE than you are...Her family lost their fishing buisness...You have lost NOTHING..She was lied to by ones like you who are COVERING the truth..SHE IS LIVING THIS NIGHTMARE you are not..All you are doing is spreading lies and taking up for a criminal and murderer of 11 people and countless marine life...I would trade you for just one porpoise or one sea turtle BP killed...they have a purpose and are not hate filled..

She is human you are not..You are like BP, you care for nothing but money ..That is all this is to you is a point to be made at the expense of peoples lives....BP ruined her life and you sit back and judge the victim telling the truth while backing the LIAR...

ARE all brits as hateful and insensative as you?? You care nothing about people,you care nothing about the Gulf and the life there. All you care about is your job and greed. Anything you don't like is drival ,that figures because you have yet to do anything on this thread but avoid the tough questions and spew your own drival....You are what is disgusting about the human race..


----------



## utchuckd

According to this report, Dear Leader said drill, baby, drill!

Yahoo! Message Boards - Tengasco, Inc. (TGC) - US based energy



> WMR learned that BP was able to have several safety checks waved because of the high-level interest by the White House and Pentagon in tapping the Gulf of Mexico bonanza find in order to plan a military attack on Iran without having to be concerned about an oil and natural gas shortage from the Persian Gulf after an outbreak of hostilities with Iran.


----------



## w1651

Rockter said:


> Gosh, isn't she so impressive?
> 
> Even-handed, objective, and totally without bias or cynicism.
> 
> The frequent injection of humour, tee hee hee, and all before an audience that cackles appreciatively at every body swagger and sick joke.
> 
> She finds the situation so funny I could almost laugh.
> 
> What a load of utter drivel from start to finish.
> 
> No doubt she thinks this nonesense is helping the situation?


Hey Rockter ! Why don't you take all the time you spend here as well as the the energy and redirect it.
You said in a previous post you design well casings right? Well why don't you use your time and energy more effectively by designing a blow off valve that works. 
That way this will not happen again and you can lean back counting your dividends and stock options in peace.


----------



## w1651

utchuckd said:


> According to this report, Dear Leader said drill, baby, drill!
> 
> Yahoo! Message Boards - Tengasco, Inc. (TGC) - US based energy


Here I sit reading this post and I am not surprised or shocked at all anymore.

I am completely unsurprised at anything the gov does anymore. We can't drill on land but we can afford to waste the resources and industries of the gulf. 
Ya these Ivy league taught politicians impress the Sh%^ out of me more and more each day.


----------



## ROSA

Those of us who rely totally on major news networks for the total truth have been duped and doped for many a year. It is not what they say, but what they are prevented from saying that is paramount.


----------



## Insails

ROSA said:


> Those of us who rely totally on major news networks for the total truth have been duped and doped for many a year. It is not what they say, but what they are prevented from saying that is paramount.


BINGO!!

We are seeing so much more by living here..The national news is only doing what sell's the best..The local media and smaller outlets are the ones sneaking by BP's security and finding the truth...

We are trying to post some of what we see wheather you believe it or not...It is happeneing...


----------



## ROSA

Insails said:


> BINGO!!
> 
> We are seeing so much more by living here..The national news is only doing what sell's the best..The local media and smaller outlets are the ones sneaking by BP's security and finding the truth...
> 
> We are trying to post some of what we see wheather you believe it or not...It is happeneing...


I am right here with you INSAILS, we know the truth, we are living it too!


----------



## Insails

You know it's funny Rosa, ever since this spill started all of us who live here on this coast have known this was far worse than reported..We know these waters ..We have delt with skeptic after skeptic yet they all fade when the truth comes out...sad ego keeps them from saying hey we were wrong..I would love to be wrong about the scope of this disaster but like you we are living it and know its bad,real bad...

Now we may have to add an oilycane to the mess...


----------



## sailguy40

Insails said:


> She is alot more sensative and caring and IMPRESSIVE than you are...Her family lost their fishing buisness...You have lost NOTHING..She was lied to by ones like you who are COVERING the truth..SHE IS LIVING THIS NIGHTMARE you are not..All you are doing is spreading lies and taking up for a criminal and murderer of 11 people and countless marine life...I would trade you for just one porpoise or one sea turtle BP killed...they have a purpose and are not hate filled..
> 
> She is human you are not..You are like BP, you care for nothing but money ..That is all this is to you is a point to be made at the expense of peoples lives....BP ruined her life and you sit back and judge the victim telling the truth while backing the LIAR...
> 
> ARE all brits as hateful and insensative as you?? You care nothing about people,you care nothing about the Gulf and the life there. All you care about is your job and greed. Anything you don't like is drival ,that figures because you have yet to do anything on this thread but avoid the tough questions and spew your own drival....You are what is disgusting about the human race..


You know what Insails, the sad thing is this is well said especially the last sentence. Have you seen the movie Avatar? I think that shows an example of those kind of people and exactly why you say that in the last sentence.

That last post there by Rockter about the girl in the video, says a lot about his true colors. He is just putting her down with everything he says. Here, this girl and her family is suffering down here and he rubs it in her face by making fun of her.

As far as Brits, most Brits I came across are nice people, they were always friendly and respectful. So i'm not sure why Rockter don't have any sympathy for all of us over here who are living a hell first hand. Well him being an "oil guy" could be part of the reason. Plus does he actually live in England? If so that is another reason, he is on another continent :laugher It would be easy for him to not care then, as it has no effect on his life. I bet if he lived here, he would be wanting to hang BP and quit his job. We are here suffering from all of this. Everything I actually live here for, is being destroyed.

I also wonder if Rockter is truely a sailor? Reason I ask this is because I thought most sailors love the water, beaches, and marine life? As a sailor and kayaker I know I do. I guess his job and the oil industry which he defends takes top priority over sailing and clean waters.

Oh and another thing, Rockter says to stop using oil. First off I pay for the fuel in my pickup, I pay a lot! I am a paying consumer. If we stop paying and using oil, Rockter, you are out of a job. So actually he should be thanking us and NOT telling us to stop using it. Its NOT our fault for using it, we only can hope the oil industry will operate safely and NOT cut corners to make profit. If I work at a yacht builder, I am not going to come on here and tell all of you who buy my yachts to stop buying them because of an accident. That will put me out of a job, I will be thanking you all for buying them. Its like someone takes their new boat out they bought from me and the mast collapses because of poor construction and quality control not doing their job. Then I come on here and say, stop using these sailboats then, its all part of sailing and the risks involved. When he knows darn good and well his QC messed up and failed.


----------



## ROSA

Anything for a buck, nothing is sacred, cut every corner possible, its the bottom line, money is our GOD! This is the philosophy which prevails with these scum bags. 

Any and Every person working for BP, Hailburton, Slumber J, or this Government, who knowingly, took part in, made decisions in, went along with cost cutting measures, covered actions, shredded or hid documents, or failed to blow the whistle on what BP was up to out there, should have their private assets seized, be criminally charged and prosecuted, tried, and publicly be-headed with a dull, oily, blade, regardless of where the trail leads.

This is my opinion and it pretty much sums up the attitude and feelings of the people on the Gulf Coast, formerly the most beautiful body of water bordering the USA, in our opinion of course.

Being a sailor, of sorts, and an AH for certain, I hope you and yours are reading this Tony!


----------



## kd3pc

"That pretty much sums up the attitude and feelings of the people on the Gulf Coast, formerly the most beautiful body of water bordering the USA, in our opinion of course."


...and for many of us watching from afar as well, knowing that the longer this takes to stop, the worse the damage will be and the longer it will take for you folks to get your lives back, if ever....


----------



## ROSA

kd3pc said:


> ...and for many of us watching from afar as well, knowing that the longer this takes to stop, the worse the damage will be and the longer it will take for you folks to get your lives back, if ever....


I certainly hope it ends soon and also that it stops here too. Many others may be significantly affected also if it does not and may have already been and don't know it yet.


----------



## Rockter

*ROSA :*

_Any and Every person working for BP, Hailburton, Slumber J, or this Government, who knowingly, took part in, made decisions in, went along with cost cutting measures, or failed to blow the whistle on what BP was up to out there, should have their private assets seized, be criminally charged and prosecuted, tried, and publicly be-headed with a dull, oily, blade._

No no.

Take them to Washington in cattle trucks, hang them from the manacles, stretch them on the rack, cut out their entrails and burn them while they are still alive, hack them into 4 pieces and stick their heads on a spike.

It may take a while.

There are 30,000 Americans still employed by BP.

They must all be guilty, somehow.


----------



## ROSA

Rockter said:


> *ROSA :*
> 
> _Any and Every person working for BP, Hailburton, Slumber J, or this Government, who knowingly, took part in, made decisions in, went along with cost cutting measures, or failed to blow the whistle on what BP was up to out there, should have their private assets seized, be criminally charged and prosecuted, tried, and publicly be-headed with a dull, oily, blade._
> 
> No no.
> 
> Take them to Washington in cattle trucks, hang them from the manacles, stretch them on the rack, cut out their entrails and burn them while they are still alive, hack them into 4 pieces and stick their heads on a spike.
> 
> It may take a while.
> 
> There are 30,000 Americans still employed by BP.
> 
> They must all be guilty, somehow.


Excuse me, please read the entire post. That however is a great option, but I specified those that knowingly took part in cost cutting matters, which impaired safety, from all vendors, including the government, which resulted in our current situation.

I am certain that there are many many BP employees, on and off the rig, who do not condone the companies actions and who are embarrassed by them. They have no exposure to legal action, unless they failed to blow the whistle.


----------



## Insails

There are 30,000 Americans still employed by BP.

yup and if BP went under and they all lost their job it will be nowhere near the lives and JOBS lost from La. through Florida....You have no clue of the scope nor the populatin density this is hurting...

Most of the BP employees will find other jobs with other oil companies...SAFER ONES as BP is by far the worst on safty ...BY FAR!...time after time their accidents have all had no regard for safty ,human life or the enviroment.The only thing BP protects is their money and ego...Proof is in all these new ad's that cost way more than the the corners they CUT...


----------



## sailguy40

Well he claims 30,000 people still employed at BP. Well, lets take a look at census information of the gulf coast states from US Census Bureau...

Texas - 24,782,302
Louisiana - 4,492,076
Mississippi - 2,951,996
Alabama - 4,708,708
Florida - 18,537,969

A total of 55,473,051 people which actually live in the gulf coast states! If we cut this number in HALF, we still have over 25,000,000 people. I say half because I would think at least half the people are effected in some way or another from the oil spill. Mainly people in Louisiana, Mississippi and soon Florida once the oil gets to them even more.

Just something else very interesting regarding the effects of the oil spill... If any of you are not aware, the Port of South Louisiana is listed as the #1 most busiest port in the entire United States. Also notice 3 ports in Texas and at number 7 we have the Port of New Orleans. Since the oil spill, many foreign ships have not been coming into the Port. The oil will damage ship engines and hulls. One employee at the port has told me yesterday he has never seen it this slow.

You can see the ports listed here: List of ports in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Census info here:
Census Bureau Home Page


----------



## Rockter

Insails :

How marvelously consistent you are in your sensitivity, caring and compassion.

First you say this...

_She is alot more sensative and caring and IMPRESSIVE than you are_

Then this...

_I seriously hope the United States siezes all of BP's assets in this country and uses the revenue to rebuild the coast before BP chickens out of their responsibility and files bankruptcy_

The second will put 30,000 people on welfare and leave your nation short of oil.

You are indeed, er, compassionate.


----------



## knothead

Rock, I like you. I really do. But for the life of me I can't figure out what you are trying to accomplish here in this thread.  

We know that we need oil. We know that our demand is the reason that there was drilling in the first place. We know all this stuff and aren't arguing. But we are also watching our Gulf being killed while people play political games. 

Emotions are high and you are just fanning the flames. 
Why? 
You are obviously feeling defensive for some reason and feel the need to go on the attack. 
Please stop striking out at us here on the Gulf coast. This isn't the time.
Please.


----------



## Insails

No words needed....
Boat captain commits suicide after BP training meeting | meeting, ala, suicide - News - Northwest Florida Daily News


----------



## seafrontiersman

*Don't see any shipping downturn here.*

I, currently using Cameron, La. which is an oil port on the Calcasieu river which is the easiest route to Lake Charles, I also operate off the mouth of the Sabine river which is the easiest rout to Beaumont Port Author as well as Galveston entrance channel which is the route to Galveston, Texas City, and Houston. I haven't seen any less ship traffic in any of those channels; if anything, I'm seeing a bit more.

There are less OSV's operating because many operators are having to tie up large portions of their fleet due to the oil spill. As far as I know, MMS hasn't issued one single permit to drill, work over, or wireline in any depth of water since this awful mess started.

I've also noted how dissapointed the talking heads in the press are that Alex won't significantly impact the spill (knocking on wood now); they were just dying for another disaster to report on. Bunch of vultures if you ask me!



sailguy40 said:


> Well he claims 30,000 people still employed at BP. Well, lets take a look at census information of the gulf coast states from US Census Bureau...
> 
> Texas - 24,782,302
> Louisiana - 4,492,076
> Mississippi - 2,951,996
> Alabama - 4,708,708
> Florida - 18,537,969
> 
> A total of 55,473,051 people which actually live in the gulf coast states! If we cut this number in HALF, we still have over 25,000,000 people. I say half because I would think at least half the people are effected in some way or another from the oil spill. Mainly people in Louisiana, Mississippi and soon Florida once the oil gets to them even more.
> 
> Just something else very interesting regarding the effects of the oil spill... If any of you are not aware, the Port of South Louisiana is listed as the #1 most busiest port in the entire United States. Also notice 3 ports in Texas and at number 7 we have the Port of New Orleans. Since the oil spill, many foreign ships have not been coming into the Port. The oil will damage ship engines and hulls. One employee at the port has told me yesterday he has never seen it this slow.
> 
> You can see the ports listed here: List of ports in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Census info here:
> Census Bureau Home Page


----------



## Insails

Seafrontiersman, You should see an increase in your area...As ports close here shipping companies redirect their ships elswhere on the Gulf...Most ships run on schedules so they dont want to stop and have to be cleaned to enter ports on the Gulf ...So they will go around and to other coastal ports. Dealing with BP on anything now is asking for 10 miles of "Red Tape"...

Hope you are well...
Are you still working the spill?
I hope the Easterly flow ahead of Alex don't spread the spill your way...
Glad to know you have "Eye's on The Gulf"...thanks


----------



## seafrontiersman

I havn't been much East of 91.30W and the only oil I've seen was dumped my a shrimp boat. Thank you for your good wishes, I'm just hoping my company stays in business so I can support my sailing addiction. I'll have a bender when I go home in a week!


----------



## Insails

I hope it stays in buisness also..The Gulf coast has lost enough jobs..
We have lost respect for BP
We have lost respect for the Government(Grandstanding and delaying for political reasons)..and now they want to tax the settlements..amazing huh)

We have lost respect fot the Coast Guard...letting BP dictate their moves and covering for BP's lies on the spill flow was nothing but STUPID..something you never expected from the CG...All they have been is BP's police force to keep the press out..

I may join you on that bender!..what else can we do...sailing is out


----------



## Faster

Folks:

This is obviously a huge tragedy with ramifications that could go on for who-knows-how-long. Even from a long remove, it's easy to see that there are many conflicting issues and it's a royal mess on several fronts.

But things here are getting too personal and there's too much of it to sort through and try to 'clean up'. If this dialogue can't be kept civil and without personal gibes back and forth, it may have to be shut down.


----------



## w1651

Rockter said:


> Insails :
> 
> How marvelously consistent you are in your sensitivity, caring and compassion.
> 
> First you say this...
> 
> _She is alot more sensative and caring and IMPRESSIVE than you are_
> 
> Then this...
> 
> _I seriously hope the United States siezes all of BP's assets in this country and uses the revenue to rebuild the coast before BP chickens out of their responsibility and files bankruptcy_
> 
> The second will put 30,000 people on welfare and leave your nation short of oil.
> 
> You are indeed, er, compassionate.


Hey Rockter!

Hows that newly designed blow off preventer coming? Made any progress there?


----------



## Insails

I hope this tradgedy never repeats ...If it does I hope you will have somewhere to air your feelings...

I have been told we can't do that here...

So I can't sail and I can't post links or tell others how I feel...If I do the attacks start...

So for the sake of Sailnet...I am bowing out of this thread

to those I offended...sorry it was never my intention...but it was not my intention to be attacked either...

I have had many laughs here over the years but its time to join cam,sway and many others and hit the sideline....maybe one day...until then

happy sailing


----------



## ROSA

Read this quick!

INSAILS, ditto, I have had enough of this PC attitude and police work! I'm out of here too! It will become really boring when all here agree on every topic and have no passion. 

I resent moderators editing or removing post of others who disagree with or attack me or others. I would never report a poster that trashes me. I am a real man, with thick skin, I am no wimp, I am fair game here. I walk on eggs for no one and do not expect it to be done for me.


----------



## w1651

Rosa - Sails 

I'm gonna miss you guys but I understand why your going. I hope someday soon you guys get to go out on your boats and get the rail wet.

Best of luck and times my friends.


----------



## knothead

Insails and Rosa,
I understand your feelings, but I think that you are both overreacting.
There is no reason that you can't express yourselves here. 

If name calling and personal insults were left out of the conversation, I doubt that there would be an issue about anything that was said. 

I hope you both change your minds and stick around. Since you're on the front lines, you are in important source of information. At least to me.


----------



## w1651

knothead said:


> Insails and Rosa,
> I understand your feelings, but I think that you are both overreacting.
> There is no reason that you can't express yourselves here.
> 
> If name calling and personal insults were left out of the conversation, I doubt that there would be an issue about anything that was said.
> 
> I hope you both change your minds and stick around. Since you're on the front lines, you are in important source of information. At least to me.


"Ditto"


----------



## kd3pc

knothead said:


> Insails and Rosa,
> I understand your feelings, but I think that you are both overreacting.
> There is no reason that you can't express yourselves here.
> 
> If name calling and personal insults were left out of the conversation, I doubt that there would be an issue about anything that was said.
> 
> I hope you both change your minds and stick around. Since you're on the front lines, you are in important source of information. At least to me.


ditto from here as well...

I do value first hand information and you guys provide that ...


----------



## nolatom

Ditto again. 

I'm in the lonely middle on this (if there is such a place, especially down here) but want to hear both sides, both from N.O. and Gulf Coasters, and from those elsewhere.

I've snapped at people once or twice about the supposed "contributory fault" of "the Gulf Coast folks", and must try to take a deep breath before typing. But the debate, if kept civil and not overly political, is a good thing I think, since it informs people and is an outlet for those who feel strongly about this bad situation.


----------



## ROSA

Thank you all for the very kind comments. I have had a wonderful time here, and consider many of you as Friends. I have received more than I have provided. For anyone interested I will be posting on a local forum "SAILING PENSACOLA" 
under ORION1. Please contact me if I can be of assistance. That even applies to ROC, K1, and BLJones. Southern Hospitality you know! Besides anyone who likes Garth Brooks can't be all bad. 

For the moment this is a local problem, I hope and Pray it remains such! 

For the record, I was not chastised by any moderator for any recent comments attributed to me. I am resigning in support of my friend INSAILS, who was.


----------



## sailguy40

Well, I would not leave here because of ONE guy if that is why you all are leaving, let him leave I am not going anywhere.


----------



## catamariner

Hi Rockter (and everybody else! But I have a question for Rockter),

I watched the new BP relief well video and it immediately worried me: rather than plugging FIRST, would it not make more sense to drill one well deeper and provide an outlet for the oil BEFORE coming in with a slightly higher (downstream, for the damaged well) well to pump mud and plug the damaged well? Just seems to me that at those intense pressures, providing an alternative outlet for the oil BEFORE trying to plug the existing hole would work better. Plugging first could cause a pressure spike and force a deep rupture that would be harder to recover from (more months of seeping death in the crystalline waters and white beaches, more chance of oil escaping the gyre and entering the Gulf Stream). The way the relief well is being presented by Kent Wells (now there was a man bound from birth for that industry), the part about what exactly will happen when contact is made has been left vague. His video stops with a single bore 5' from and parallel to the original, then he talks about pumping mud. ISTM it should be obvious that an alternative path (bleed valve for the pressure, if you will) should precede the bottom kill effort. Are they just not saying that because they think it will look like they are trying to get the oil rather than plug the leak? I surely hope so, because if they actually do pump mud FIRST, ISTM they would increase the danger of failure (rupture) significantly. But you are the casing guy, maybe you can tell us more about this? Thanks in advance.


----------



## truckmen

Hello all,

I am captain on an offshore supply vessel; we are involved in an unrelated charter as a re-supply/chase boat for a seismic survey operation just 10 miles from GoM's "Ground Zero". We have seen very little effects of the ongoing spill but the site is very impressive indeed. I took some photo while passing as close as 3.5 nm.









​








​


----------



## catamariner

Wow, Truckmen, that's a heckuva thing to come across out there. From how far away could you see the skyglow before actually seeing the site?


----------



## truckmen

At night, flames leap over the horizon at 16 nm away.


----------



## truckmen

I have a lot of duplicated photos due to my wanting to try and get good shots from a vessel underway. 
Somewhere Around 90 vessels are involved with the effort. That is a lot of money floating out there. 
Ours is the pink icon just merrily passing through like nothing's happening, heh heh heh


















​


----------



## k1vsk

If anyone is still reading this, there is some substantive info to convey:


"The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency today released peer reviewed results from the first round of its own independent toxicity testing on eight oil dispersants. EPA conducted testing to ensure that decisions about ongoing dispersant use in the Gulf of Mexico continue to be grounded in the best available science. 

EPA's results indicated that none of the eight dispersants tested, including the product in use in the gulf, displayed biologically significant endocrine disrupting activity. While the dispersant products alone - not mixed with oil - have roughly the same impact on aquatic life, JD-2000 and Corexit 9500 were generally less toxic to small fish and JD-2000 and SAF-RON GOLD were least toxic to mysid shrimp. While this is important information to have, additional testing is needed to further inform the use of dispersants. 

EPA continues to carefully monitor BP's use of dispersant in the Gulf. Dispersants are generally less toxic than oil and can prevent some oil from impacting sensitive areas along the Gulf Coast"

Hopefully this will minimize some of the hysteria.


----------



## QuickMick

hmmm, K1vsk... you know if they have studies done on dispersants products mixed _with_ oil? just curious....


----------



## utchuckd

According to this there are 1600 skimmers in the US, 850 of them in the southeast, and we are using 433 in the Gulf. Apparently the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 says that different areas in the country have to have so many skimmers on hand in case of emergency, and sending more to the Gulf would drop other areas below their mandated levels. So they are just sitting there waiting for a spill in their own back yard. Hey how about we waive the mandates for now and send 'em all to the Gulf! Bureaucracy, blech.

Red tape keeps prized oil-fighting skimmers from Gulf, coastline | NOLA.com



> On the Senate floor last week, Sen. George LeMieux, R-Fla., pointed to a Coast Guard map detailing more than 850 skimmers available in the southeastern United States -- and more than 1,600 available in the continental United States.
> 
> "We are literally talking about more than a thousand skimmers that are available, but we only have 400 - if this number is correct -- at work," LeMieux said. "It is hard to believe that the response is this anemic; it is hard to believe that there is this lack of urgency or sense of purpose in getting this done."
> 
> The Oil Pollution Act of 1990 requires regions to have minimum levels of equipment such as boom and skimmers, making it difficult for every oil-fighting resource to be directed to the Gulf of Mexico.
> 
> Allen acknowledged the hurdle last week, saying that there are "discussions we're having across the entire country where we have equipment that's out there as a requirement -- legal requirement to cover spill response of those areas -- and how we might free those up. That's a work in progress inside the administration right now."


----------



## k1vsk

QuickMick said:


> hmmm, K1vsk... you know if they have studies done on dispersants products mixed _with_ oil? just curious....


I can't recall any but doubt it as it would be meaningless as it applies to the Gulf spill (or any other spill) in that:
the ratio of oil:dispersant varies widely,
there are a myriad of crude oils from which to choose for testing,
aquatic species varies by region (which would someone select for testing in the abstract?),
concentration of dispersant varies with dispersion of the dispersant,
temperature varies with region, depth, etc all of which can affect toxicity,
oxygen content,
nutrient content, etc...

If I infer correctly, and you are questioning why the EPA tox testing was done absent oil, the number of variables are too numerous to replicate in the real world. These tests are done solely to form a comparison between dispersants; not to quantify tox of the mix in the Gulf which is a moving target.


----------



## w1651

I saw the news hour last Weds night.

Can't get over the schools of dolphins dying in the gulf. there are going to be hundreds dying out there covered in oil.


----------



## sailingdog

Looks about as well organized as a typical Chinese Fire Drill.


----------



## QuickMick

yeah, looks like they'd spend more time not running into eachother than skimming oil...


----------



## w1651

sailingdog said:


> Looks about as well organized as a typical Chinese Fire Drill.


Looks more like a Cluster F^&* to me. All this for a 8 or 12 inch hole in the earth. Amazing isn't it.

I find it astounding that the head guy for the gulf spill thinks the dispersents are no more toxic then dish soap. Maybe we should make him bath in it after work every night when he gets home.


----------



## sailingdog

w1651 said:


> Looks more like a Cluster F^&* to me. All this for a 8 or 12 inch hole in the earth. Amazing isn't it.
> 
> I find it astounding that the head guy for the gulf spill thinks the dispersents are no more toxic then dish soap. Maybe we should make him bath in it after work every night when he gets home.


Actually, making him drink it and breathe it would be far more appropriate, that is what the fish are doing with it.


----------



## k1vsk

w1651 said:


> Looks more like a Cluster F^&* to me. All this for a 8 or 12 inch hole in the earth. Amazing isn't it.
> 
> I find it astounding that the head guy for the gulf spill thinks the dispersents are no more toxic then dish soap. Maybe we should make him bath in it after work every night when he gets home.


Actually, that is precisely what dispersants are comprised of - surfactants just like Dawn dish detergent. Neither is good for you but logic and science are irrelevant in this debate.


----------



## w1651

sailingdog said:


> Actually, making him drink it and breathe it would be far more appropriate, that is what the fish are doing with it.


Would he like a umbrella in his glass. straight or on the rocks?


----------



## Insails

Ok...we will try this one more time...

remember...All this stuff about dispersants being safe is BEFORE you mix it with crude oil and sea water...After it is mixed in it is a complete different animal..and those TEST have not been finished...so DON'T believe the dispersants are safe until ALL the testing is done...What they have posted on the BP website is ONLY the first round of test without it being mixed with oil..

Here is an article with one of our coast's best Scientest at the Dauphin Island Sea lab..
EPA Says Chemical Dispersant Is Far Less Toxic Than Oil - Mobile Alabama

Now what do these dispersants do...they sink the oil...
Oil spill confirmed to be in seabed off Alabama coast | al.com


----------



## ericread

EPA Says Chemical Dispersant Is Far Less Toxic Than Oil

I love the name of the article. So if it's a matter of taking a "Really Really Strong Poison", or just a "Really Strong Poison", it would obviously be better to take the "Really Strong Poison".

However, we should not forget that it's still a "Really Strong Poison".

I guess I just don't understand how people think that the death of thousands of sea animals, the potential death of an entire fishing industry in the Gulf, massive unempolyment caused by this spill, and the loss of $Billions in tourism dollars to the Gulf states is worth maybe $1 a gallon in lower gas prices.

I equate it to the common sense that you don't build your outhouse next to the stream where you get your drinking water. It my be a bit more inconvenient to locate the outhouse elsewhere, but at least you won't die from the polluted water. Or for a more relevant sailing example, you probably wouldn't route your head waste into your drinking water tank. Sure the waste would be dispersed in the larger tank of drinking water, and it might be a real PIA to install a waste tank, but it just seems like a bad idea to put it in the drinking water tank.

Seems like common sense to me...


----------



## Insails

I love the name of the article. So if it's a matter of taking a "Really Really Strong Poison", or just a "Really Strong Poison", it would obviously be better to take the "Really Strong Poison".

If you drank it is there a difference in dead and really dead:laugher

I also wonder will some at BP drink the dispersant as this may get real ugly 
BP Criminal Case in Oil Spill May Be Inevitable, Analysts Say - Bloomberg


----------



## KeelHaulin

Maybe the EPA should just stop sitting on their thumbs and let that giant oil skimmer go down there. You know the one that can skim 500,000 BARRELS PER DAY. Their entire clean-up operation has only recovered about 600,000 Barels in 75 days. WTF ARE THEY WAITING FOR? WHY DOES A DEVICE THAT SUCKS UP MASSIVE QUANTITIES OF OIL NEED EPA APPROVAL?? WTF DID OBAMA WAIT 70 DAYS TO LIFT THE JONES ACT FOR?

AND WE BLAME BP FOR ALL OF THIS? WE TIE THEIR HANDS AND THEN WE PLACE ALL OF THE CLEANUP EXPENSE/BURDEN ON THEM? THIS IS WAY MORE ABOUT GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER AND POLITICS (DON'T WASTE A GOOD CRISIS) THAN YOU THINK. EVEN BILL CLINTON IS SCREAMING "PLUG THE DAMN HOLE"!!


----------



## Insails

KeelHaulin said:


> Maybe the EPA should just stop sitting on their thumbs and let that giant oil skimmer go down there. You know the one that can skim 500,000 BARRELS PER DAY. Their entire clean-up operation has only recovered about 600,000 Barels in 75 days. WTF ARE THEY WAITING FOR? WHY DOES A DEVICE THAT SUCKS UP MASSIVE QUANTITIES OF OIL NEED EPA APPROVAL??


Political grandstanding...almost as if someone wants this to be bad to pass an energy reform bill ( Cap and Trade)....We feel used here on the Gulf Coast


----------



## svHyLyte

KeelHaulin said:


> Maybe the EPA should just stop sitting on their thumbs and let that giant oil skimmer go down there. You know the one that can skim 500,000 BARRELS PER DAY. Their entire clean-up operation has only recovered about 600,000 Barels in 75 days. WTF ARE THEY WAITING FOR? WHY DOES A DEVICE THAT SUCKS UP MASSIVE QUANTITIES OF OIL NEED EPA APPROVAL??


This falls under the Dumb and Dumber clauses of the Environmental Protection Act. The "Whale" is capable of sucking up five hundred plus thousand barrels of water per day and removing 90+% of the oil after which the "cleaned" water is returned to the sea. However, becuase roughly 10% of the oil remains in the discharged water, this falls under the "Prohibited Voluntary Discharge of Oil at Sea" rule which is a violation of EPA Regulations, MARPOL and various other environmental protection regulations. So, rather than removing roughly 450,000 barrels of oil a day from the sea the bureaucrats would rather wring their hands...

and use this "crises" to push enviroradical agendas.

FWIW...


----------



## ericread

KeelHaulin said:


> Maybe the EPA should just stop sitting on their thumbs and let that giant oil skimmer go down there. You know the one that can skim 500,000 BARRELS PER DAY. Their entire clean-up operation has only recovered about 600,000 Barels in 75 days. WTF ARE THEY WAITING FOR? WHY DOES A DEVICE THAT SUCKS UP MASSIVE QUANTITIES OF OIL NEED EPA APPROVAL?? WTF DID OBAMA WAIT 70 DAYS TO LIFT THE JONES ACT FOR?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Could it be that maybe, just maybe, we should make sure this ship doesn't end up doing more harm than good? Maybe, just maybe, we should not blindly accept another pie in the sky idea from BP until we see that what it puts back in the ocean?
> 
> As for the Jones act, please do your research. The Jones act has not been responsible for any Gulf cleanup delays. The real issue for the calls to repeal the Jones act are based upon breaking the US Maritime Industry's hold on shipping between US ports - basicly an attempt at Union busting.
> 
> The Jones act only regulates vessels within three miles of the US shore. And, if you look closely, the foreign ships offered are not for close-shore operation.
> 
> Seriously, you've got to start watching something other than FOX News once in a while. And please, we get the idea that you're upset, but your yelling makes me think I'm talking to the ghost of Billy Mays :laugher


----------



## kd3pc

"we should make sure this ship doesn't end up doing more harm than good?"

Really Eric, how much worse could one ship make it then...do we sit around and wait for "someone" to do something....like we have for 70+ days, or do we try it?

as for the jones act, where did you get a reference to "repeal" it?? I have seen requests for it to be suspended...please let us know..before this President leverages this crisis for cap and trade or an even more rediculous climate bill.

Mitigate the bloomin' problem...then work on you politics. I would wager that even the Gulf States would be pleased with the Pres if put focus and full time attention on solving this, or paving the way for it to be solved...


----------



## ericread

kd3pc said:


> "we should make sure this ship doesn't end up doing more harm than good?"
> 
> Really Eric, how much worse could one ship make it then...do we sit around and wait for "someone" to do something....like we have for 70+ days, or do we try it?
> 
> as for the jones act, where did you get a reference to "repeal" it?? I have seen requests for it to be suspended...please let us know..before this President leverages this crisis for cap and trade or an even more rediculous climate bill.
> 
> Mitigate the bloomin' problem...then work on you politics. I would wager that even the Gulf States would be pleased with the Pres if put focus and full time attention on solving this, or paving the way for it to be solved...


I agree that we should suspend politics as usual in favor of a solution.

As for the Jones Act, McCain introduced legislation to repeal the Jones Act yesterday. And again, since the Jones Act only legislates shipping within three miles of shore, it really has little to do with the cleanup efforts thus far. If you look closely you will find hundreds if US ships standing ready and standing idle. The Jones Act is mere subterfuge in this whole disaster.

Ther real reason skimming hasn't been productive is that 1. Most of the oil is beneath the surface of the water, where skimming does not reach, and; 2. The oil has been treated with so much of the poisonous dispersants that there are not a lot of major patches of oil concentration floating on the surface for which to skim. Yes, there is a tremendous amount of oil in the water, just at levels that make skimming less effective.

Make no mistake, the entire oil industry knows they desperately need to stop this spill. As the new spokesman for BP said this morning, "Offshore oil drilling will never be the same after this". But this is a case where there are no good answers. We drilled deeper than we could control. We sh_t in our own backyard one too many times.

Is this another disaster we are going to refuse to learn from?

Eric

(and thank you for not shouting)


----------



## svHyLyte

Eric--

It would seem your iunderstanding of the constraints of the Jones Act and the companion provisions of 46 U.S.C. Ch.551 (Coastwise Trade) are erronious. The cabotage provisions of the Jones Act restrict the carriage of goods or passengers between United States ports to U.S. built and flagged vessels. This is codified as portions of 46 U.S.C. ch.551 (Coastwise Trade). The transport of oil and gas-even recovered oil and gas within the 200 mile Economic Zone is considered to fall within the cabotage provisions of the Jones Act. Oil Spill response by foreigh flagged vessels is specifically addressed:
TITLE 46; Subtitle V; Part D; CHAPTER 551; § 55113<o></o>​<o></o>
​Notwithstanding any other provision of law, an oil spill response vessel documented under the laws of a foreign country may operate in waters of the United States on an emergency and temporary basis, for the purpose of recovering, transporting, and unloading in a United States port oil discharged as a result of an oil spill in or near those waters, if<o></o>​<o></o>
​1. an adequate number and type of oil spill response vessels documented under the laws of the United States cannot be engaged to recover oil from an oil spill in or near those waters in a timely manner, as determined by the Federal On-Scene Coordinator for a discharge or threat of a discharge of oil; and,​2. <o></o>the foreign country has by its laws accorded to vessels of the United States the same privileges accorded to vessels of the foreign country under this section.<o></o><o></o>​The foregoing conditions have not ben "deemed" to have been met and absent a waiver--as issued by Michael Chertoff who temporarily waived the Jones Act on September 1, 2005, immediately following Hurricane Katrina.

The problem we have here is an administration that is caught between the constituencies it wants to pander to and, whereas the unions--and particularly SEIU--hold the strings to the bigger purse, that is who the Obamanation has chosen to favor.


----------



## kd3pc

Eric 

thanks for the update...my wife will only let me watch a few minutes of news anymore, I get so....passionate...had not seen McCain or his new want...

I had read on a website that the "Whale" actually was better than a skimmer, as it could get oil in the water column....appears that was wishful thinking, todays details it as simply a large skimmer..

thanks


----------



## KeelHaulin

You just can't accept that Obama is a progressive who is pushing us into socialism; and EVERYTHING he has done so far has been in an attempt to further his socialist agenda; including this piss poor response to a disaster.

Obama has the power to waive the EPA requirements. 90% of oil recovery is f'ing huge by comparison to nearly nothing. That skimming ship could sit right on top of the un-controlled plume and suck up virtually ALL of the oil coming out of the well head. It has by far MORE CAPACITY than the spill is producing!! Yet it sits at a dock in Virginia waiting for EPA approval and a lifting of the Jones act. Which BTW is was also up to Obama to waive in a time of emergency!! He waited 70 freakin days to do this!! How long did it take Bush to lift the Jones act when Katrina hit? Less than a week!! Hmm who had a better response to a national emergency?? Oh wait...............Obama needed to get his groove on with McCartney; hob-nob with the MX president, play a few rounds of golf and rub elbows with NBA players before helping the "little people" along the Gulf Coast...






Oh no.... Obama is not the problem... *HE'S OUR SAVIOR FROM ALL THAT IS EVIL IN THE WORLD!!*


----------



## ericread

kd3pc said:


> Eric
> 
> thanks for the update...my wife will only let me watch a few minutes of news anymore, I get so....passionate...had not seen McCain or his new want...
> 
> I had read on a website that the "Whale" actually was better than a skimmer, as it could get oil in the water column....appears that was wishful thinking, todays details it as simply a large skimmer..
> 
> thanks


In all seriousness, thanks to all of you who are engaging in this discussion in a polite and civilized manner. It is apparent that we all want this problem to stop, and I think all of us in the back of our minds are reminded that the Mexical spill that was comperable took 9 months to stop.

And I especially want to thank those whom can show me my errors. I am learning, as we all are, about the complexities of this disaster.

I have to go now, to get ready for tomorrow's sailing. In the mean time, I wish you all a happy and safe July 4th weekend. And I look forward to conversing more with you when I return. With any luck, we'll be talking more about sailing and less about disasters in the near future. (And I have to stop watching so much CNBC and learn to watch FOX once in a while.  )

Sincerely, Eric Read


----------



## pdqaltair

*The state of Louisiana EPA is refusing to allow recycling of the oil in the state.*

In spite of the fact that the Governor issue a letter allowing many facilities to accept the wastes from the spill, the state EPA is doing all they can to prevent waste management in their state. For example, one barge of water/oil has been shipped to Alabama and one has been shipped to Texas, but none can be processed near the site of the spill, though there are facilities. The rest is sitting in barges, up and down the river, and some has been placed in shore tanks.

Typical Louisiana responsiveness and denial. I guess they want it to be someone else's problem, although the oil business is certainly part of the local economy (yes, it is BP oil, but most of the workers and support functions are local). An embarrassment and one more factor slowing things down.


----------



## w1651

svHyLyte said:


> Eric--
> 
> It would seem your iunderstanding of the constraints of the Jones Act and the companion provisions of 46 U.S.C. Ch.551 (Coastwise Trade) are erronious. The cabotage provisions of the Jones Act restrict the carriage of goods or passengers between United States ports to U.S. built and flagged vessels. This is codified as portions of 46 U.S.C. ch.551 (Coastwise Trade). The transport of oil and gas-even recovered oil and gas within the 200 mile Economic Zone is considered to fall within the cabotage provisions of the Jones Act. Oil Spill response by foreigh flagged vessels is specifically addressed:
> 
> TITLE 46; Subtitle V; Part D; CHAPTER 551; § 55113<O</O​
> <O</O​Notwithstanding any other provision of law, an oil spill response vessel documented under the laws of a foreign country may operate in waters of the United States on an emergency and temporary basis, for the purpose of recovering, transporting, and unloading in a United States port oil discharged as a result of an oil spill in or near those waters, if<O</O​<O</O​1. an adequate number and type of oil spill response vessels documented under the laws of the United States cannot be engaged to recover oil from an oil spill in or near those waters in a timely manner, as determined by the Federal On-Scene Coordinator for a discharge or threat of a discharge of oil; and,​2. <Othe foreign country has by its laws accorded to vessels of the United States the same privileges accorded to vessels of the foreign country under this section.<O</O<O</O​The foregoing conditions have not ben "deemed" to have been met and absent a waiver--as issued by Michael Chertoff who temporarily waived the Jones Act on September 1, 2005, immediately following Hurricane Katrina.
> 
> The problem we have here is an administration that is caught between the constituencies it wants to pander to and, whereas the unions--and particularly SEIU--hold the strings to the bigger purse, that is who the Obamanation has chosen to favor.


Well Said! 
This is all partisan politics at the expense of the Gulf and it's people. Like I have been saying," Everything In The Gov Is Broken ". The MMS, EPA.USCG,USCIS, right on down the list. forget the Jones act get the bloody whale out of port and moving. If it lets 10% of the oil back into the gulf that's fine we still got the other 90%. They can pick up that 10% when they come through a second time. Just get it done already!!!

Thank God it's an election year and we can send everyone in Washington a message.


----------



## kootenay

w1651 said:


> Well Said!
> This is all partisan politics at the expense of the Gulf and it's people. Like I have been saying," Everything In The Gov Is Broken ". The MMS, EPA.USCG,USCIS, right on down the list. forget the Jones act get the bloody whale out of port and moving. If it lets 10% of the oil back into the gulf that's fine we still got the other 90%. They can pick up that 10% when they come through a second time. Just get it done already!!!
> 
> Thank God it's an election year and we can send everyone in Washington a message.


It is an election year and of course you can try to send a message but you need to ask yourself why Government is broke. The reason is simply put it is it's for sale to the highest bidder. You can buy you very own congressman and as long as that continues you can make believe that you can "send a message" but in reality its simply part of the same great delusion. Both the Dems and the GOP operate under the same system and its not you they listen to but the folks who really write the checks and they actually work for .....the lobbiests.


----------



## k1vsk

pdqaltair said:


> In spite of the fact that the Governor issue a letter allowing many facilities to accept the wastes from the spill, the state EPA is doing all they can to prevent waste management in their state. For example, one barge of water/oil has been shipped to Alabama and one has been shipped to Texas, but none can be processed near the site of the spill, though there are facilities. The rest is sitting in barges, up and down the river, and some has been placed in shore tanks.


This is another of those issues where there is more to the real story than first appears. There are legitimate, well-intended and sound reasons why some states, including Louisiana, do not allow oil disposal, among which are the lack of secure disposal facilities. Clearly, the Governor should know this but appears to make political points rather than acknowledge this state limitations. Just more gamesmanship which isn't constructive and which leads people to the wrong conclusion.


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## Insails

For Landfills to accept oil they have to be licensed for house hold garbage...Which mean they have lined cells to keep the oils from food garbage from getting into the water table..All states are different it could be the landfills in La. don't have lined cells..
The ones in Alabama are lined with a plastic liner topped with sand(absorb) topped with gravel(filter)..They will put the oil into lined cells with NOTHING else then when full extract what oil they can from the sand and then clean the sand to use as cover for the fill...Hope that helps..


It would be a great day to sail here ,nice breeze,partly cloudy BUT the dang oil!! maybe one day I can sail again


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## k1vsk

Insails said:


> For Landfills to accept oil they have to be licensed for house hold garbage...Which mean they have lined cells to keep the oils from food garbage from getting into the water table..All states are different it could be the landfills in La. don't have lined cells..
> The ones in Alabama are lined with a plastic liner topped with sand(absorb) topped with gravel(filter)..They will put the oil into lined cells with NOTHING else then when full extract what oil they can from the sand and then clean the sand to use as cover for the fill...Hope that helps..
> 
> It would be a great day to sail here ,nice breeze,partly cloudy BUT the dang oil!! maybe one day I can sail again


Only licensed hazardous waste landfills can accept oil waste, either liquid or solid or both. Municipal landfills cannot regardless of what state. I'm not sure what the status is of any licensed hazardous waste landfills in LA. are now but historically, we had to transport waste from almost the entire east coast to Alabama or Model City, NY.

What differentiates a licensed HW landfill from a traditionally lined landfill is more complicated than a description here deserves. Suffice it to say there are likely none in LA regardless of what the Governor tried to imply.


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## KeelHaulin

Hazardous waste landfills are a thing of the past. It's all incinerated now.

The oil that is being collected is not waste. Even the stuff that is skimmed off goes in for pre-processing before it is sent to the refinery to be utilized and made into petroleum by-products.


----------



## poopdeckpappy

k1vsk said:


> This is another of those issues where there is more to the real story than first appears. There are legitimate, well-intended and sound reasons why some states, including Louisiana, do not allow oil disposal, among which are the lack of secure disposal facilities. Clearly, the Governor should know this but appears to make political points rather than acknowledge this state limitations. Just more gamesmanship which isn't constructive and which leads people to the wrong conclusion.


You would think as Governor, issuing a letter allowing facilities to accept the wastes from the spill would be enough but then, it is the epa, the same epa that disallowed several skimmers due to the amount of oil being discharged back into the waters; Even ' A Whale ' will need the epa approval and if the discharge is too high, it to will get the boot.

Hard to comprehend the logic behind this thinking


----------



## k1vsk

poopdeckpappy said:


> You would think as Governor, issuing a letter allowing facilities to accept the wastes from the spill would be enough but .....


The issue isn't regulatory - "allowing" haz waste into an improperly designed landfill incapable of containing leachate results in simply transferring
MORE pollution in a different location.

This is a matter of the lack of a suitable location capable of containing the waste. A typical muni landfill cannot effectively contain leachate over the long term. A letter from a Governor doesn't change that.


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## utchuckd

Looks like they're gonna crank up the Whale:

Giant oil skimmer being tested in Gulf of Mexico - Yahoo! News


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## utchuckd

When I was in the gasoline and lubricants business we sold a product that was an absorbent made from peat moss. It encapsulated the oil and was certified landfillable. Basically once you cleaned oil up with it it held the oil and never let go. It's also hydrophobic, so it didn't soak up water, only oil products. I am by no means an expert, but maybe they could find some use for that stuff to help clean up.


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## seafrontiersman

I was coming into the port of Cameron, La. yesterday after a coast-wise run and was hailed on 16 by a vessel on charter to BP asking every vessel entering or crossing Calcasieu Pass Channel if they had seen any oil in the water lately. Just thought this might be informative.


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## knothead

A friend and neighbor of mine is on the crew of one of the vessels working the spill. He insists that the oil is difficult to find. 
I was expressing my displeasure at the bureaucrats who are preventing or delaying the use of every available asset and he insisted that there were more than enough boats and that the real problem is that there is no coordination. 
I'm not out there so I couldn't argue much, but I know one thing for sure. The oil is still washing up on shore so it has to be on the surface somewhere. That means that that either there aren't enough skimmers or machines that recover the oil from the water or that the ones that are out there aren't in the right places. 

I don't think anyone has to be a genius to realize that the use of dispersants are for the purpose of preventing big floating masses of oil on the surface where it might be photographed. No, it's better to dissolve the oil in the water where it can be hidden and ignored. Who cares that it will probably kill a hundred times more animals in the long run. It's better for the public image.

The response to this crisis is a disgrace. 
Perhaps the military should just take over the whole thing. 
I meant the oil spill response, not the government. Although...


----------



## w1651

KeelHaulin said:


> Hazardous waste landfills are a thing of the past. It's all incinerated now.
> 
> The oil that is being collected is not waste. Even the stuff that is skimmed off goes in for pre-processing before it is sent to the refinery to be utilized and made into petroleum by-products.


Why not just burn it to make electricity. Give it to them to use for nothing. I'm sure they could use it for something even if they just used a 10% to 90% mix with the oil they already have and need to buy. 
it would be a savings to them and a way to get rid of the waste.


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## w1651

utchuckd said:


> Looks like they're gonna crank up the Whale:
> 
> Giant oil skimmer being tested in Gulf of Mexico - Yahoo! News


Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaa !!!!   It's about time!!!


----------



## GaryHLucas

KeelHaulin said:


> Hazardous waste landfills are a thing of the past. It's all incinerated now.
> 
> The oil that is being collected is not waste. Even the stuff that is skimmed off goes in for pre-processing before it is sent to the refinery to be utilized and made into petroleum by-products.


Damn, no one told me!
I hope not, most of our business is to hazardous waste landfills. We process the leachate that gets collected, and sent back into the landfill where it came from, minus the water.

Gary H. Lucas


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## tdw

7.30 Report - 03-Jun-2010


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## poopdeckpappy

w1651 said:


> Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaa !!!!   It's about time!!!


The test is one thing, the blessig by the epa is another; If the trace oil ( and there will be trace oil ) discharged back into the water exceed the epa standard they will disallow it's use; This makes absolutely no sence too me


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## w1651

tdw said:


> 7.30 Report - 03-Jun-2010


You gotta love British Humor. The truth of it is what makes this so dam funny.:laugher


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## utchuckd

tdw said:


> 7.30 Report - 03-Jun-2010


Brilliant!

At least we know who to blame, the bloke who made the wingnuts!


----------



## sailguy40

One of my biggest fears may end up coming true... today they have found tar balls in Lake Ponchartrain for the first time since the oil spill. Here is the video in case anyone here lives in the area too and did not know about this...

First reports of oil in Lake Pontchartrain | wwltv.com | WWLTV.com News

Also here is another sad video, it seems these just never end...

msnbc.com Video Player

If it gets any worse in Lake Ponchartrain I am relocating to California because all I have left is the Lake. I lived in Louisiana all my life, BP and their greedy operation may force me to relocate. They destroyed my hometown and all the reasons I lived here. I really may have to leave my job, my life, everything behind and move. I hope they know they will pay for this! Those dirty no good SoBs!


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## JonnyQuest

*Well $%!*, I was hoping to move my boat to Slidell*

That was supposed to be my consolation for not being able to sail on the Coast--thought they would be able to contain the mess at the mouth of the Rigolets, a strategic chokepoint.

Might have to put a self contained cooling system on the boat and avoid using raw water for engine cooling. Or wait a year and see what the water looks like?


----------



## w1651

sailguy40 said:


> One of my biggest fears may end up coming true... today they have found tar balls in Lake Ponchartrain for the first time since the oil spill. Here is the video in case anyone here lives in the area too and did not know about this...
> 
> First reports of oil in Lake Pontchartrain | wwltv.com | WWLTV.com News
> 
> Also here is another sad video, it seems these just never end...
> 
> msnbc.com Video Player
> 
> If it gets any worse in Lake Ponchartrain I am relocating to California because all I have left is the Lake. I lived in Louisiana all my life, BP and their greedy operation may force me to relocate. They destroyed my hometown and all the reasons I lived here. I really may have to leave my job, my life, everything behind and move. I hope they know they will pay for this! Those dirty no good SoBs!


Sailguy

Don't do anything crazy just yet. It's always darkest before the storm. Lets wait 6 months before making a life altering decision like that. 
You still have a job and a place to live. That's more then a lot of your neighbors are going to have here shortly unless BP really does step up to the pump and pay peoples losses.
20 Billion is just a drop in the bucket though. It will take 5 or 6 times that to compensate folks in the Gulf.


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## sailguy40

@w1651 you are probably right. I do feel for all those people who no longer have a job or place to live, its a nightmare and those videos are sad. At the moment I can still sail and kayak in the lake but I just fear it could get worse. If it does, my company has a job opening in Hawaii and I can transfer. So most likely that is what I will do if it actually does come down to all the water here being restricted. You are right though, it really is too early to jump ship yet so I need to hang in there. If they at least get it stopped we will be on the right road.

@jonnyquest Love the boat name! Man that was my favorite cartoon growing up. I remember watching that all my early childhood, my mom would always put it on for me. I need to send my friend that pic of your boat, he will like it.


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## w1651

Sail Guy

How are they saying the oil got up into the lake? Isn't that upstream from the Mississippi? I don't understand how it got there. what feeds the lake?


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## nolatom

It's not a 'true' Lake, since it's open to Mississippi Sound and the Gulf via two passes, the Chef and the Rigolets. These passes are deep because they're tidal. Therein lies the rub. The tide runs hard and it's difficult to contain all oil on an incoming tide.

I think it'll not be as bad as we fear, large globs may not get in, but smaller tarballs will. The latter are easier to clean up.

I swam at Pontchartrain Beach yesterday (you have to hop fences and floodwalls to get in, due to levee construction). Beautiful clean water, at least by Lake standards (the Lake was pretty bad 20 yrs ago, much much better now), so I hope I'm right about fairly minimal effect. I sail there (south shore) and would like to continue to swim there, beach or no.


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## sailguy40

w1651 said:


> Sail Guy
> 
> How are they saying the oil got up into the lake? Isn't that upstream from the Mississippi? I don't understand how it got there. what feeds the lake?


nolatom sums it up, also here is a map showing the Rigolets which is where they say it entered...


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## seafrontiersman

I encountered an oil sheen last night @ 29.30N/93.30W; was informed by a monitoring vessel that a large slick is located about 40 Nm East of that position and is moving west @ .75 Kts.


----------



## w1651

nolatom said:


> It's not a 'true' Lake, since it's open to Mississippi Sound and the Gulf via two passes, the Chef and the Rigolets. These passes are deep because they're tidal. Therein lies the rub. The tide runs hard and it's difficult to contain all oil on an incoming tide.
> 
> I think it'll not be as bad as we fear, large globs may not get in, but smaller tarballs will. The latter are easier to clean up.
> 
> I swam at Pontchartrain Beach yesterday (you have to hop fences and floodwalls to get in, due to levee construction). Beautiful clean water, at least by Lake standards (the Lake was pretty bad 20 yrs ago, much much better now), so I hope I'm right about fairly minimal effect. I sail there (south shore) and would like to continue to swim there, beach or no.


Dam! Nothings safe!

Watched the news last night and the talking heads on msnbc are scared. If the relief wells don't work they are finally talking about doing what I said 2 months ago. Just implode the well. It sounded like they know Obama's presidency could be riding on this spill.
They are afraid the well wall is compromised to much for the cement to stick and the mud to slow down the leak. I have to agree if this doesn't work there will be hell to pay. 
And from what the attorney for the Gulf residents said BP is talking to him the Gov, USCG, and the EPA then going across the street to meet with the bankruptcy attorneys they hired. 
This is like something out of Dallas.


----------



## nolatom

Dare we hope that the new cap just put over the riser pipe might actually work?

New well cap to get 'integrity testing' - CNN.com

We've been so used to stuff not working out, but if this one does, and the well is still sound, then dare I say it--this might give the poor old Gulf a much-needed break until the relief well comes in.


----------



## w1651

nolatom said:


> Dare we hope that the new cap just put over the riser pipe might actually work?
> 
> New well cap to get 'integrity testing' - CNN.com
> 
> We've been so used to stuff not working out, but if this one does, and the well is still sound, then dare I say it--this might give the poor old Gulf a much-needed break until the relief well comes in.


Let's wait and see first. I'm not going to start celebrating just yet. But if this does work we might finally be able to get on with our lives down here.


----------



## knothead

http://www.wkrg.com/gulf_oil_spill/article/epa-says-chemical-dispesant-is-far-less-toxic-than-oil/902493/Jul-01-2010_5-16-pm/

 MOBILE, Alabama - BP started using chemical dispersants in April to break apart the massive amount of oil in the Gulf. In May, the Environmental Protection Agency told BP to find a less toxic dispersant to use. But BP never did, and continued using a dispersant called "Corexit." 
Now after initial tests, the EPA says Corexit is less toxic than oil.

Dr. Bob Shipp is a popular marine biologist who thinks dispersants will do more harm than good. "I just can't understand it. I just can't understand EPA's role in this at all, it makes no sense. You shouldn't use dispersants anyway because it makes the oil far more difficult to handle. It allows it to enter the ecosystem and it's going to have some negative effects."

Dr Shipp says the oil would be easier to clean up without dispersants. 
"The oils on the surface, you can burn it, you can skim it, if it gets on the beach you can clean it up. You're not destroying the oil by putting it into the water column, it's still there."

Corexit Action Alert | Mobile Baykeeper


----------



## w1651

Knot we both know what dispersants do. 
They put the oil in the column thus making it look like it isn't as bad as it is and it makes it look like BP cares and is cleaning the spill up. 
My question still remains. Why aren't any of these people under indictment for this mess? How much of that 20 Billion is really going to the people if the Gulf?
That money needs to be watched like a hawk and followed. I don't trust anyone in Washington to do the right thing here anymore.


----------



## sailingdog

I'd point out that BP's choices to skimp on safety in the design of the well led directly to the deaths of 11 people... why aren't BP and its executives being tried for those deaths???


----------



## QuickMick

im only guessing, as im no roughneck, but i would think they have to sign some kind of legally binding 'waiver of damages' or some such thing to sign on.


----------



## sailingdog

QM—

A waiver or disclaimer isn't always binding if there is negligence involved.


----------



## bubb2

First of all this would be a workers compensation claim. To take to into the world of a civil tort you must prove gross negligence just not negligence.


----------



## sailingdog

True...


bubb2 said:


> First of all this would be a workers compensation claim. To take to into the world of a civil tort you must prove gross negligence just not negligence.


----------



## knothead

w1651 said:


> Knot we both know what dispersants do.
> They put the oil in the column thus making it look like it isn't as bad as it is and it makes it look like BP cares and is cleaning the spill up.
> My question still remains. Why aren't any of these people under indictment for this mess? How much of that 20 Billion is really going to the people if the Gulf?
> That money needs to be watched like a hawk and followed. I don't trust anyone in Washington to do the right thing here anymore.


We can't do much but we can write a letter. I know it probably won't help, but it's better than sitting on our thumbs.

Corexit Action Alert | Mobile Baykeeper

"Even a postcard will do, just be sure it is hand written! Help us get one million letters to EPA by August 1st demanding they stop the use of Corexit!"


----------



## k1vsk

It's always interesting to read the credentials of those on staff as well as the Board of Directors of the organization people refer to - Mobile Baykeeper which is the link so many like to rely upon for advice on dispersant usage:

degrees in philosophy, business, psychology(with a minor in English), interior design, wildlife services(???).

remarkable..


----------



## knothead

k1vsk said:


> It's always interesting to read the credentials of those on staff as well as the Board of Directors of the organization people refer to - Mobile Baykeeper which is the link so many like to rely upon for advice on dispersant usage:
> 
> degrees in philosophy, business, psychology(with a minor in English), interior design, wildlife services(???).
> 
> remarkable..


I don't have a degree in sh!t, but I think I am smart enough to know that it makes more sense to let the oil rise to the surface where there is a chance of removing or recovering it than to dissolve it into the water where it is out of sight and out of mind.

It's not a stretch for me to believe that it's going to be worse in the long run to have clouds of this stuff floating around beneath the surface where all the fish have to breath. And I didn't even have to have a marine biologist tell me.

The only reason for the use of dispersants is public perception. 
Hide it under the surface and nobody can take pictures of it.

As horrible as it is to see all the birds and turtles and dolphins smothered in oil. At least what you can see you can clean up.

The oil that they are dissolving into the water is going to have to be cleaned up by nature if it's cleaned up at all.

I wonder how long it's going to take. I wonder how it's going to affect the food chain.


----------



## k1vsk

knothead said:


> The only reason for the use of dispersants is public perception.
> Hide it under the surface and nobody can take pictures of it.
> .


This is a contentious issue but there are sound, environmentally justified reasons why dispersants may be appropriate in certain circumstances, none of which is to hide anything.

I could enumerate some of the reasons, which I have done previously, but that would likely be a waste of my time (again) as folks believe what they want.

Suffice it to say that if you want to make an informed judgment about anything, including the use of dispersants, you might want to look deeper into the process before making snap judgments which are usually unwise.


----------



## kd3pc

K1

I, like the others, value your thoughts, but when the "experts" at the EPA have no idea what these will do, short term or long term per their recent policy change..then I get on my box. Convince me that pumping millions of gallons of dispersants/surfectants in to the flow has done anything but window dressing..for the enviros and media...

In the bays I have worked in, all this does is drop the oil from the water column to the floor, away from sunlight and oxygen which allows the often included enzymes to do their thing...then the bottom feeders eat this, become metabolized and are now part of the food chain.


There is little agreement on when, how much, where or what the effects/affects truly are...even amongst the experts, as too many of them have an agenda beyond solution or clean up.

And to blindly trust this President or the folks at BP is simply insane.

Who do we believe...when so much stupid stuff is presented by the powers in control??? Like pumping golf balls in it, or the truly clueless who call offering their congressman an automatic PFD to send down...positive that it will work.


----------



## k1vsk

I'm not arguing that the use of dispersants is the best thing to do; only that it may be the least offensive and that is the only real choice here - which of a bunch of bad alternatives is the least offensive. That consideration is the only valid one.

No one is in a position to definitively state whether dispersed oil throughout the water column is worse than oil coming ashore in mangroves, marshes, tidal estuaries, etc, all of which are the most sensitive ecosystems at risk. Coupled with the fact that there is no amount of equipment anywhere which can effectively remove the oil by mechanical means, it is only those who have a very superficial understanding of the issues who immediately condemn dispersant use for some pretty silly reasons.

I never advocated dispersant use nor did I defend it - just pointed out that, like most things, there are pluses and drawbacks to these decisions and they are not easy to make but easy to criticize by those who ...


----------



## kd3pc

K1

I thought that is what you were suggesting, and I agree... the lesser of a lot of bad decisions 

I am quite surprised that, according to the latest - BP has been told to stand down until "gov't" scientist and consultants look over the test plan for this new hub and the pressures they expect...

Not sure whether it is a good thing or bad thing, but it is nice that someone is double checking things for a change..

again thanks for taking the time to elaborate for me....


----------



## w1651

bubb2 said:


> First of all this would be a workers compensation claim. To take to into the world of a civil tort you must prove gross negligence just not negligence.


What if a commercial airliner went down from lack of maintenance and killed the crew only. airliners are supposed to do routine maintenance at a specific time intervals . Does a lack of maintenance make it a workers comp claim? If the company had memos saying not to do maintenance because it costs to much or safety doesn't count or matter is it a crime or just a liability?
Negligence is one thing Gross negligence is a whole different animal I think. Would have to look it up to be sure though.


----------



## w1651

K1 
welcome back~! You just couldn't stay away could you? we need a opposing view point here. 

By the way, Has anyone seen the whale lately and has it been getting any oil?
I don't even know if it ever left port or not.


----------



## bubb2

w1651 said:


> What if a commercial airliner went down from lack of maintenance and killed the crew only. airliners are supposed to do routine maintenance at a specific time intervals . Does a lack of maintenance make it a workers comp claim? If the company had memos saying not to do maintenance because it costs to much or safety doesn't count or matter is it a crime or just a liability?
> Negligence is one thing Gross negligence is a whole different animal I think. Would have to look it up to be sure though.


Yes the claim would start out as a workers comp claim as in any employee death. In your Little scenario does the pilot have access to the maintenance records? If he does as most pilots do, it would negligence on his part. Now lets say the company falsified the records, saying they did maintenance that they dud not, then that would be gross negligence on the company part.


----------



## knothead

k1vsk said:


> Suffice it to say that if you want to make an informed judgment about anything, including the use of dispersants, you might want to look deeper into the process before making snap judgments which are usually unwise.


I don't make snap judgments, but thank you for your kind advice.

BP Oil Spill Threatens Seafood Industry - DailyFinance

"dispersion doesn't make the oil disappear: the droplets collect on the seabed, where they may be consumed by the microorganisms that form the basis of the ocean's food chain. These tiny animals are then eaten by shrimp, oysters and other seafood, many of which could later find their way to the dinner table. Unlike the current crop of tainted fish, which are covered in crude, these fish will carry oil -- and its attendant toxins and carcinogens -- in their flesh. Some critics are already likening the Gulf's food problems to the mercury contamination that continues to be a problem for the seafood industry."

Oil dispersants an environmental â€˜crapshootâ€™ - Disaster in the Gulf - msnbc.com

"But the chemicals, which are being used in unprecedented volumes and in previously untested ways, may come with a big tradeoff, *scientists* say. That's because no one can accurately predict how large the impact will be on the mammals, fish and turtles that inhabit the open ocean. 
"It's a whole new ball game," said *Ted Van Vleet, a professor of chemical oceanography* in the college of Marine Science at the University of South Florida. "People are totally unsure as to how it is going to affect the ecosystems."


----------



## sailingdog

Knothead—

Unfortunately, dispersants are being used with no real idea of what the long term impact of them will be. Some people just see their use as good, since they are part of the solution... but, it doesn't mean that they're not going to become their own problem down the road.


----------



## beej67

Oil dispersants are being used because some oil dispersant execs made some campaign contributions. Welcome to the USA.


----------



## beej67

Oh, and to quickly address the bitching and whining in this thread...

...drilling is plenty safe when companies don't cut a bunch of corners like BP did. They repeatedly ignored warnings from their engineers and subconsultants, and repeatedly pushed horribly unsafe practices to shave a few days off their schedule. You can blame regulators for poor oversight, or you can blame BP for being a terrible company full of idiots who don't know how to do a cost benefit analysis, but this would not have happened if Exxon or Amoco was in charge. 

Spill clean up blame is a different animal entirely, which goes partially back to BP lying on their permit, and partly due to congress tying the hands of government after the Valdez, and partly back to the executive branch's unwillingness to break congress's rules in the face of an emergency, and partly due to a lot of other crap.

I've been told that all the bluefin tuna on the entire eastern seaboard spawn off the coast of Louisiana once a year. The effects of this spill aren't going to be fully known for a long time.


----------



## utchuckd

Radio news just reported BP announced that the cap is holding and no oil is currently being released into the Gulf!!

Edit: Oil stops flowing into Gulf of Mexico; cap is closed, BP says | NOLA.com


----------



## bubb2

utchuckd said:


> Radio news just reported BP announced that the cap is holding and no oil is currently being released into the Gulf!!
> 
> Edit: Oil stops flowing into Gulf of Mexico; cap is closed, BP says | NOLA.com


Prayers anwsered!


----------



## sailingdog

Let's wait before celebrating... there's a good chance that the pressure from the sealed cap might cause leaks elsewhere.


----------



## QuickMick

and too, i wonder what the odds are that the 'relief well' just becomes another well.... anyone know if they ceased work on that? probably not, auspiciously as a 'just in case' measure.... 

hope springs eternal, but it wont pay the bills.


----------



## beej67

The relief well was always going to be another production well.


----------



## kd3pc

way too early to celebrate...and sad the remaining damage will likely fall from the media, and into a tough fix, with little attention by BP and this Pres...

I am keeping my fingers crossed, and hope for a real cleanup to start ASAP.


----------



## nolatom

C'mon, bay-bee, let it be a good pressure-test, c'mon.....

Hope it's time for some good news here at last.


----------



## RTB

Yeah, you guys have really taken a beating. Not to mention the wildlife. Let's hope Christmas came early this year!


----------



## knothead

Thank God the flow of oil has stopped.

Now to concentrate on the clean up.

One of the first orders of priority should be to stop the use of dispersants. At least until we know all the facts about the stuff.

I would have hoped that we could expect a little more cooperation from the people involved. 
But I suppose that they needed a little more time to prepare. I mean I'm sure that they had no idea that they would ever need to testify about their product.

Sen. *Barbara Mikulski *said she might subpoena Nalco Holding Co. executives to testify at a future hearing after the maker of a chemical dispersant being used to combat the Gulf of Mexico oil spill declined to testify today.

"I want the record to show that the Nalco did decline, that its board of directors is made up of industry executives from BP, Exxon, Monsanto and Lockheed. And I'm sorry that they didn't come, because I think they do a lot of good things, and there are questions that we have.

Mikulski Puts Oil Dispersant Maker on Notice - Washington Wire - WSJ


----------



## beej67

"On Notice" = "spend more on lobbying"


----------



## sailguy40

beej67 said:


> Oh, and to quickly address the bitching and whining in this thread...
> 
> ...drilling is plenty safe when companies don't cut a bunch of corners like BP did. They repeatedly ignored warnings from their engineers and subconsultants, and repeatedly pushed horribly unsafe practices to shave a few days off their schedule. You can blame regulators for poor oversight, or you can blame BP for being a terrible company full of idiots who don't know how to do a cost benefit analysis, but this would not have happened if Exxon or Amoco was in charge.
> 
> Spill clean up blame is a different animal entirely, which goes partially back to BP lying on their permit, and partly due to congress tying the hands of government after the Valdez, and partly back to the executive branch's unwillingness to break congress's rules in the face of an emergency, and partly due to a lot of other crap.
> 
> I've been told that all the bluefin tuna on the entire eastern seaboard spawn off the coast of Louisiana once a year. The effects of this spill aren't going to be fully known for a long time.


Yep exactly, well said and I have said similar a few times in this thread, especially to those who say "its all part of drilling". Drilling itself is safe, BP's operations were unsafe. If drilling was so dangerous, we would have had several more bad oil spills since the exxon valdez. Then again, that was a ship accident, not an oil rig explosion resulting from faulty equipment and poor risky decisions.


----------



## kd3pc

About like this President to sick his crew on Nalco...even though HIS EPA approved the stuff..doesn't matter to him...someone is to blame...


and to blanket state dispersants should not be (or have been) used is just uneducated parroting. there is a place for them and surfectants...but ya gotta be careful...it doesn't make the oil "go away" magically. just breaks it down so enzymes can feed and drops it from the water column...

last I heard, the valve is still holding...but we did have an earthquake this am in DC....they MUST be related??!!??


----------



## w1651

beej67 said:


> Oh, and to quickly address the bitching and whining in this thread...
> 
> ...drilling is plenty safe when companies don't cut a bunch of corners like BP did. They repeatedly ignored warnings from their engineers and subconsultants, and repeatedly pushed horribly unsafe practices to shave a few days off their schedule. You can blame regulators for poor oversight, or you can blame BP for being a terrible company full of idiots who don't know how to do a cost benefit analysis, but this would not have happened if Exxon or Amoco was in charge.
> 
> Spill clean up blame is a different animal entirely, which goes partially back to BP lying on their permit, and partly due to congress tying the hands of government after the Valdez, and partly back to the executive branch's unwillingness to break congress's rules in the face of an emergency, and partly due to a lot of other crap.
> 
> I've been told that all the bluefin tuna on the entire eastern seaboard spawn off the coast of Louisiana once a year. The effects of this spill aren't going to be fully known for a long time.


That's a whole lotta parts adding up to one big Problem, that's what we have been saying all along. there is more then enough blame to go around here.


----------



## w1651

kd3pc said:


> About like this President to sick his crew on Nalco...even though HIS EPA approved the stuff..doesn't matter to him...someone is to blame...
> 
> and to blanket state dispersants should not be (or have been) used is just uneducated parroting. there is a place for them and surfectants...but ya gotta be careful...it doesn't make the oil "go away" magically. just breaks it down so enzymes can feed and drops it from the water column...
> 
> last I heard, the valve is still holding...but we did have an earthquake this am in DC....they MUST be related??!!??


It's a little to early to jump for joy yet but the valve is holding THANKYOU JESUS!!! 
The quake didn't hurt anything did it? The news said they hadn't found or seen any damage. Things are getting crazy these days. Montreal had a quake last month. When was the last time that happened?


----------



## k1vsk

knothead said:


> Now to concentrate on the clean up.
> 
> One of the first orders of priority should be to stop the use of dispersants. At least until we know all the facts about the stuff.


Dispersants are effective only on fresh oil and not old weathered oil. The decision to stop using them is inevitable.


----------



## adamavis

w1651 said:


> .. Montreal had a quake last month. When was the last time that happened?


Every 10 years we get a lil rumble.. There was also a tornado 3 days after, it's 2012 coming early I tell ya!!


----------



## w1651

Wow that often. I was not aware of that.

You really don't believe that 2012 thing do you? 
I think the guy making the calender went on a lunch break. After lunch he goes into the jungle to relieve himself and POW! Bit right on his Butt. To Bad to. If it was his arm or leg someone would have sucked out the poison.

Did I mention the cap is holding?


----------



## fjon

If this is valid, you can fughedabowdit. All of it. We'll all need a new plan.

Doomsday: How BP Gulf disaster may have triggered a world-killing event - by Terrence Aym - Helium


----------



## knothead

fjon said:


> If this is valid, you can fughedabowdit. All of it. We'll all need a new plan.
> 
> Doomsday: How BP Gulf disaster may have triggered a world-killing event - by Terrence Aym - Helium


Well, if we have six months left, at least I'll be able to see the end of the baseball season. But the bottom line is ....


----------



## Insails

Far from over...
Cruisers on the Gulf....uh don't fire off those grills




WKRG.com News


----------



## kd3pc

In

would definitely be interested in the retest clip if you see it..

I guess my only question is why do you all (we, too) have to learn this from a TV news person? Where is that infamous EPA group, and no Don I am not kicking them again... I just fail to understand what it IS that they do...?

During 9/11 they proclaimed with great authority that the air was good around the recovery site for months. it wasn't...

they recently proclaimed that the dispersant (corexit, I think?) was on their safe list and OK's it's use for BP....until they did use to the tune of several million gallons, then the EPA backed up and stopped it's use...

They have recently banned independent research ships, even a NOAA ship from looking for more leaks along the path of the Deep well, as well as the two recovery wells.

What do those folks do? 

thanks for the clip...we don't get to see these kinds of things here in the Mid-atlantic. I would love to see that lady do a test of Chesapeake, Delaware, and LI sound - just for sanity sake....


----------



## Insails

I will follow up when they do...

We here on the gulf have learned not to trust anyone envolved in this...

not our fault but their dishonesty is why...

Here is another organization that is doing independant testing..

WATER TESTING! You Can Help-DONATE! : Surfrider Foundation Emerald Coast Chapter


----------



## w1651

kd3pc said:


> In
> 
> would definitely be interested in the retest clip if you see it..
> 
> I guess my only question is why do you all (we, too) have to learn this from a TV news person? Where is that infamous EPA group, and no Don I am not kicking them again... I just fail to understand what it IS that they do...?
> 
> During 9/11 they proclaimed with great authority that the air was good around the recovery site for months. it wasn't...
> 
> they recently proclaimed that the dispersant (corexit, I think?) was on their safe list and OK's it's use for BP....until they did use to the tune of several million gallons, then the EPA backed up and stopped it's use...
> 
> They have recently banned independent research ships, even a NOAA ship from looking for more leaks along the path of the Deep well, as well as the two recovery wells.
> 
> What do those folks do?
> 
> thanks for the clip...we don't get to see these kinds of things here in the Mid-atlantic. I would love to see that lady do a test of Chesapeake, Delaware, and LI sound - just for sanity sake....


Okay people I will explain it then.
I have been in business on my own for over five years now. In that time I have dealt with every thing and every one from Government to big business to small business to the individual. 
From my many transactions and conversations with these people I can say with out delay or pause that the EPA or government in general is Around for one thing and one thing only. 
To collect a paycheck!
That's it! It's not a conspiracy or a mystery wrapped inside a enigma. They just collect paychecks. They occasionally get in the way, screw things up, or completely aggravate with out discrimination but this is not their fault. They simply lack the skills necessary to be knowledgeable, courteous,or useful for that matter. 
If they had them they would be in the private sector earning a living instead of sucking us dry and the air out of the room. This is how I know with certainty that the EPA (or all Gov Employees for that matter ) do not do anything they don't have or want to do. 
They simply are there to collect a check and make our lives miserable through their lack of social skills and/or any work ethic.

I hope this cleared it up for you.


----------



## ericread

Let's not get ahead of ourselves on the celebrations. The pressure on the cap is building much more slowly than expected. This could mean that the oil is saturating the sub-surface rather than staying within the bore. If this doesn't resolve it self pretty quickly, BP will be forced to open the valves once again, releasing the oil once again into the gulf. 

And no, the relief bore was never intended to become another production well. The relief well is being drilled for the express purpose of pushing mud and cement far into the bore, closing this well forever. BP would drill aother set of wells when they decide to put the oil resevoir into production. The existing bores are just too dangerous to continue in any production capacity.

Beleive it or not, BP really, really wants to cap this well and move on. The last thing they want to do is to prolong discussion of this disaster any longer than they have to.

Eric


----------



## k1vsk

kd3pc said:


> In
> 
> would definitely be interested in the retest clip if you see it..
> 
> I guess my only question is why do you all (we, too) have to learn this from a TV news person? Where is that infamous EPA group, and no Don I am not kicking them again... I just fail to understand what it IS that they do...?
> 
> During 9/11 they proclaimed with great authority that the air was good around the recovery site for months. it wasn't...
> 
> they recently proclaimed that the dispersant (corexit, I think?) was on their safe list and OK's it's use for BP....until they did use to the tune of several million gallons, then the EPA backed up and stopped it's use...
> 
> They have recently banned independent research ships, even a NOAA ship from looking for more leaks along the path of the Deep well, as well as the two recovery wells.
> 
> What do those folks do?
> 
> thanks for the clip...we don't get to see these kinds of things here in the Mid-atlantic. I would love to see that lady do a test of Chesapeake, Delaware, and LI sound - just for sanity sake....


This is not an issue of semantics but just to state it correctly, there is no such thing as a safe dispersant and there is no such thing as a "safe list" okay to use.

EPA maintains a list of pre-approved dispersants which exists for only two purposes 1. - to cut down on the already paralyzing bureaucratic process for using a dispersant which inherently would preclude their use in a timely fashion if it is deemed appropriate by the OSC. 
2. To avoid the snake oil salesman showing up at the CG's doorstep every oil spill trying to convince them to use their stuff (which also wastes everyone's time).

There is only one prerequisite for a company to have their product included in the list - a comprehensive chemical composition summary. EPA does not limit inclusion to this list in any way other than to ensure they now what the components are and instead leave the decision on use entirely up to the CG and their scientific support staff.
It is ultimately up to the discretion of the USCG OSC to allow dispersant use. EPA's pre-approved list serves only to limit the decision-making process timeframe as time is of the essence when one recognizes it's efficacy is entirely dependent on the oil being fresh by providing the chemical data to the decision-makers.

EPA or the CG never stopped their use but did, because it was being used in such vast quantities, ask BP to slow down the application rate which they did.

I know nothing about anyone banning research ships from exploration of the area and especially not NOAA which is part of the response team but I am aware of the CG's restrictions on sightseeing, news media et al who either present a danger, hazard or obstacle to on-going cleanup. By the way, the exclusion zone spans a grand total of 70 yards from on-going cleanup activities - personally, I find 70 yards hardly an impediment to news media access as they claim.

With respect to the WTC air monitoring, EPA's air sampling program was outside the perimeter of the building collapses and intended to monitor ambient air for the general public outside the perimeter.


----------



## kd3pc

K1 and the group,

so if I understand correctly the Environmental Protection Agency...EPA - does NOTHING to test the dispersant/surfectant list for harm/toxicity to the environment?

Then why are the various media outlets, not being honest? We (I) continue to urge BP and the Fed to be helpful, but when various media state with great authority these things....how does one verify or research their veracity...

since early on, all media at one time or the other "reported" tar balls from this well on southern FL, the FL Keys (the ones on the SE side, that most of us relate to when someone says the FL Keys), and will be on the Mid-atlantic by Sept..

Similarly they reported that the EPA "approved" the dispersants used by BP, until "someone" pointed out their toxicity, after which they were "banned" no mention of the coasties even being involved in that conversation.

I guess for me, the sad part is that there is absolutely NO TRUTH to anything any of these organizations say, broadcast or promote Gov or Media or University or ??

Were it you or I or some individual or small business partaking in this charade - presenting speculations, assumptions, as fact verified, we would be fried by this same administration.

I am weary of the misinformation, deliberate or otherwise that flows from this event. There is absolutely no way for the common, well read man to separate the horse pucky from the spit...

And it continues today with "pressures" again early on in the free flow, pressures were often stated by BP, CG, local University Geologists as being in the 11,000 PSI range..

Tomorrow will bring a review of this fact and so it continues on...


----------



## k1vsk

I can only tell you what I know to be true. What the media says is sometimes out of misunderstanding, ignorance, hype or intent - pick one...

EPA does in fact not test toxicity of dispersants as a normal practice.


----------



## knothead

Note the date.


*BP ordered to stop using toxic dispersant in Gulf oil clean-up - NatGeo News Watch*

Posted on May 20, 2010 The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency informed BP officials late Wednesday that the company has 24 hours to choose a less toxic form of chemical dispersants to break up its oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, Juliet Eilperin of _The Washington Post_ reported today.

BP Refuses to Comply with EPA Demand to Stop Use of Corexit Dispersant - Truth is Treason

The EPA now believes that Corexit is highly toxic, so BP was given 24 hours to find a new, less harmful solution. BP responded by saying that Corexit isn't as toxic as they think, and after giving a vague explanation told the EPA that they were just going to keep on using it because it's working fine.

I don't know whose worse. BP or the EPA. Or maybe that other guy. What happened to all that ass kicking we heard about?


----------



## knothead

Stay out of the water!


----------



## k1vsk

guess it is worth reiterating that not everything the media reports is totally objective, precise or reality...


knothead said:


> Note the date.
> 
> 
> *BP ordered to stop using toxic dispersant in Gulf oil clean-up - NatGeo News Watch*
> 
> Posted on May 20, 2010 The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency informed BP officials late Wednesday that the company has 24 hours to choose a less toxic form of chemical dispersants to break up its oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, Juliet Eilperin of _The Washington Post_ reported today.
> 
> BP Refuses to Comply with EPA Demand to Stop Use of Corexit Dispersant - Truth is Treason
> 
> The EPA now believes that Corexit is highly toxic, so BP was given 24 hours to find a new, less harmful solution. BP responded by saying that Corexit isn't as toxic as they think, and after giving a vague explanation told the EPA that they were just going to keep on using it because it's working fine.
> 
> I don't know whose worse. BP or the EPA. Or maybe that other guy. What happened to all that ass kicking we heard about?


----------



## Boasun

Because of Obama's Mordant Anti-oil stance. Jobs here in the south land are drying up. I've seen several small businesses already closed down. It isn't just the Oil field workers, but a ripple effect that is spreading across the southland. He (the President) claims that he is working to increase jobs. But every step he has taken has been causing job lose here in the Southland. 
And his commission on the oil spill are all socialists who have no oil field experience at all and from their glorified heights of Acadamia are enspousing Socialist attitudes and have no real solutions...


----------



## kd3pc

K1 wrote "guess it is worth reiterating that not everything the media reports is totally objective, precise or reality..."

are you saying that NatGeo was/is irresponsible in reporting this...or that the EPA does NOT test for toxicity, or that ...

we will never know whether the dispersant was used at all, used to the tune of millions of gallons - then stopped, or used to the tune of millions of gallons and is still being used.

I heard from a ham radio list, ham aboard the NOAA ship, that they were "escorted" off several water column plumes and spills affecting several thousand feet of water column, while taking water samples to test for toxicity of the dispersants and what was in the plumes/water column....

once again, we the people are fed another line of BS by this president and his suite of incompetents on the scene....

btw, NO ONE has said much about the initial PSI of over 11K PSI, while the well was free flowing and the current 6-7K PSI...what happened to the other pressure, that they experts were so positive of, back then...it seems that everyone is now nodding in agreement that 6,500 PSI is a GOOD thing...

This report was one of the many during that timeframe, that caused me to post my last message about what does the EPA actually DO....

now I am more confused than ever...as I thought NatGeo of all, may actually have some truth to their reports..


----------



## k1vsk

kd3pc said:


> K1 wrote "guess it is worth reiterating that not everything the media reports is totally objective, precise or reality..."
> 
> are you saying that NatGeo was/is irresponsible in reporting this...or that the EPA does NOT test for toxicity, or that ...
> 
> .


Let me restate it as clearly as I can -

EPA *requires* (as opposed to conducts) toxicology tests and reports for all dispersants that are included on the (NCP) Product Schedule, the list of candidate dispersants. All determinations regarding the specific application or use of a dispersant are made by the Federal On-Scene Coordinator in charge of the response, the USCG.

On May 26th, EPA and the Coast Guard issued a directive to BP requiring them to *decrease* (as opposed to halt) overall volume of dispersant by 75 percent and to cease use of dispersant on the surface of the water altogether *unless provided prior written authorization from the Coast Guard.* EPA/CG continues to allow BP to use undersea dispersant but only at a maximum of 15,000 gallons per day.

If you would prefer to read specifics:

Dispersants | EPA Response to BP Spill in the Gulf of Mexico | US EPA


----------



## kd3pc

K1

again thanks, for being patient and very responsive at the same time...


----------



## knothead

The bottom line is that BP was directed by the EPA to find (identify) a alternative dispersant withing 24 hours. BP responded by claiming that only Corexit was in adequate supply and basically thumbed their noses at the directive because they knew that they could. 
Corexit is on the list of approved dispersants and the EPA can only prohibit it's use if they take the steps to unapprove it. Which obviously takes an act of congress. Not that the EPA wanted to stop the use anyway. If they did, they wouldn't have come up with such a wishy-washy, mealy-mouthed directive in the first place. 
The use of Corexit has been banned in Britian. But that's only because it has been proven to wipe out those pesky snails and crustaceans. Who needs em anyway? 

BP doesn't want to spend the money to switch to a less harmful dispersant until they have used up the stuff that they have already stockpiled and have on hand. Their bottom line is way more important to them than the welfare of the Gulf. 
I guess if I were a stockholder I would be happy.


----------



## w1651

Boasun said:


> Because of Obama's Mordant Anti-oil stance. Jobs here in the south land are drying up. I've seen several small businesses already closed down. It isn't just the Oil field workers, but a ripple effect that is spreading across the southland. He (the President) claims that he is working to increase jobs. But every step he has taken has been causing job lose here in the Southland.
> And his commission on the oil spill are all socialists who have no oil field experience at all and from their glorified heights of Acadamia are enspousing Socialist attitudes and have no real solutions...


Obama and his staff have been completely useless here. Don't expect much from them at all.


----------



## w1651

kd3pc said:


> K1 wrote "guess it is worth reiterating that not everything the media reports is totally objective, precise or reality..."
> 
> are you saying that NatGeo was/is irresponsible in reporting this...or that the EPA does NOT test for toxicity, or that ...
> 
> we will never know whether the dispersant was used at all, used to the tune of millions of gallons - then stopped, or used to the tune of millions of gallons and is still being used.
> 
> I heard from a ham radio list, ham aboard the NOAA ship, that they were "escorted" off several water column plumes and spills affecting several thousand feet of water column, while taking water samples to test for toxicity of the dispersants and what was in the plumes/water column....
> 
> once again, we the people are fed another line of BS by this president and his suite of incompetents on the scene....
> 
> btw, NO ONE has said much about the initial PSI of over 11K PSI, while the well was free flowing and the current 6-7K PSI...what happened to the other pressure, that they experts were so positive of, back then...it seems that everyone is now nodding in agreement that 6,500 PSI is a GOOD thing...
> 
> This report was one of the many during that timeframe, that caused me to post my last message about what does the EPA actually DO....
> 
> now I am more confused than ever...as I thought NatGeo of all, may actually have some truth to their reports..


The latest and greatest from the news this morning is that the oil is seeping from the sea bed. They showed What looked like oil coming up from the sea floor bypassing the well. Which is why the pressures are so low. But it is a heck of a lot slower leak then the well itself.
I keep hearing how BP only has 40 ft to go to get to the well casing. Could we finish the last 40 ft and try to plug this thing already? They drilled thousands of feet in 2 months and can't get the last 40 handled? Come on! 
Now Bp wants to capture the oil from the cap they put on the well. Why do I get the feeling they just want the oil and everything else be dammed?


----------



## kd3pc

rumor from the coasties on site and a friend on the NOAA boat is that BP is afraid of rupturing the existing casing...they are not sure where the stinger is, and they have disturbed the solid matter around the existing casing MANY feet back from the exposed head. They apparently have to pull the drill and send in a magnetic DF to "see" how close to the target they are...then re-insert the drill and drill some more with a new heading.

the more they disturb the bottom around the existing casing, the more risk of it rupturing. Some with Anadarko have stated for the record that the existing casing is stressed or cracked some distance back from the working end. Anadarko experts said to NOT touch the casing for at least 1800-2000 feet from the head...BP has different ideas and so does the Fed...

I think the reality is that someone, has figured out that they (whoever they is) can actually make things a lot worse than it currently is. And THEY don't want to be the ones pulling the trigger...THEY want some one else to tell them what to do, then they can say/blame/excuse the other...

Seems science held up...low pressures = leak somewhere...if only the experts could see that...

Oh well, BP and the Pres better get alternate Plan B in place pretty damn fast.....


----------



## Insails

Oh well, BP and the Pres better get alternate Plan B in place pretty damn fast.....

exactly...

They never had a plan "A".

BP drillied having no plan "A".

The Government respondes having no "Plan A"

Everything has been operation improvosation from day one by all responders..

Now they need a " Plan B "..

After wasting Three months on orchistrated known failure techniques from Ixtoc.....
...


wait and it will soon come out they knew there was a leak before they used this new cap....any takers???

many have said there was a second fissure months ago


deception,lies and cover-ups.....and yet we must trust them...pssst anyone seen Stalin????


----------



## nolatom

w1651 said:


> Obama and his staff have been completely useless here. Don't expect much from them at all.


His Commission lacks any members with industry experience, or even any academic training in geology. Finally, they have hired a retirer Shell engineer as a 'science advisor', but of course he doesn't have a vote.

And now both the House and Senate want to have their "own" commissions too:

Dueling Spill Commissions? - Green Blog - NYTimes.com

Can any institution match the House, Senate, and Executive branches in needless duplication? How many congressional committees are there? And why does *each* have to have its own "hearing" in front of the TV cameras, which eschew any real fact-finding from witnesses in favor of windy 'opening statements' in which the members compliment each other for being members and then yell at the company representatives, who sit there and look miserable, as they did before the 22 other committees.

The joint investigation here in New Orleans is quietly doing its job, but those in Congress and Administration seem to ignore it and reinvent the wheel over and over again.


----------



## w1651

Insails said:


> Oh well, BP and the Pres better get alternate Plan B in place pretty damn fast.....
> 
> exactly...
> 
> They never had a plan "A".
> 
> BP drillied having no plan "A".
> 
> The Government respondes having no "Plan A"
> 
> Everything has been operation improvosation from day one by all responders..
> 
> Now they need a " Plan B "..
> 
> After wasting Three months on orchistrated known failure techniques from Ixtoc.....
> ...
> 
> wait and it will soon come out they knew there was a leak before they used this new cap....any takers???
> 
> many have said there was a second fissure months ago
> 
> deception,lies and cover-ups.....and yet we must trust them...pssst anyone seen Stalin????


Just want to say one thing Sails: DITTO !!!


----------



## w1651

nolatom said:


> His Commission lacks any members with industry experience, or even any academic training in geology. Finally, they have hired a retirer Shell engineer as a 'science advisor', but of course he doesn't have a vote.
> 
> And now both the House and Senate want to have their "own" commissions too:
> 
> Dueling Spill Commissions? - Green Blog - NYTimes.com
> 
> Can any institution match the House, Senate, and Executive branches in needless duplication? How many congressional committees are there? And why does *each* have to have its own "hearing" in front of the TV cameras, which eschew any real fact-finding from witnesses in favor of windy 'opening statements' in which the members compliment each other for being members and then yell at the company representatives, who sit there and look miserable, as they did before the 22 other committees.
> 
> The joint investigation here in New Orleans is quietly doing its job, but those in Congress and Administration seem to ignore it and reinvent the wheel over and over again.


At least La is doing something. My state has a sit and wait attitude about this whole thing.Our tourism industry is crap right now. Vacancy rates at our beach hotels are over the 85% mark. 
All that lost cash is having an affect on the local economy. No one goes out to dinner, see a movie, or buys anything unless they absolutely have to have it. Trickle down economics is alive and well on the west coast of Florida these days.


----------



## ericread

Boasun said:


> Because of Obama's Mordant Anti-oil stance. Jobs here in the south land are drying up. I've seen several small businesses already closed down. It isn't just the Oil field workers, but a ripple effect that is spreading across the southland. He (the President) claims that he is working to increase jobs. But every step he has taken has been causing job lose here in the Southland.
> And his commission on the oil spill are all socialists who have no oil field experience at all and from their glorified heights of Acadamia are enspousing Socialist attitudes and have no real solutions...


With all due respect, this is absolute nonsense. President Obama originally annuonced opening of numerous tracts of offshore coastal areas for drilling. It was BP's gross ineptness that put a temporary halt to going forward with this.

As for the commission, please take a look at today's news.

"Obama's Spill Commission Unleashes a Shocker:

...But its second day-long session included a big surprise: Its co-chairmen -- former Florida Senator Bob Graham and William Reilly, former head of the Environmental Protection Agency under the first President Bush -- questioned the need for a six-month ban. In fact, Graham, who long fought against drilling off Florida's coast, said, "We're going to look over (the administration's) shoulder and have some comments to make as to whether we think the judgments they made are appropriate."

Hmmmm. Maybe the commission isn't as one sided as originally thought?

Obama's Spill Commission Unleashes a Shocker - Yahoo! News


----------



## w1651

ericread said:


> With all due respect, this is absolute nonsense. President Obama originally annuonced opening of numerous tracts of offshore coastal areas for drilling. It was BP's gross ineptness that put a temporary halt to going forward with this.
> 
> As for the commission, please take a look at today's news.
> 
> "Obama's Spill Commission Unleashes a Shocker:
> 
> ...But its second day-long session included a big surprise: Its co-chairmen -- former Florida Senator Bob Graham and William Reilly, former head of the Environmental Protection Agency under the first President Bush -- questioned the need for a six-month ban. In fact, Graham, who long fought against drilling off Florida's coast, said, "We're going to look over (the administration's) shoulder and have some comments to make as to whether we think the judgments they made are appropriate."
> 
> Hmmmm. Maybe the commission isn't as one sided as originally thought?
> 
> Obama's Spill Commission Unleashes a Shocker - Yahoo! News


Being here in Florida, living,working, and seeing Bob Graham serve as senator for this state.I can say from experience " don't be to impressed " with Bob Graham. He's a politician like all the rest.


----------



## Insails

The time stamp is last evening...
If this is happening,then there is a serious problem..
This rover went offline right after


----------



## nolatom

ericread said:


> With all due respect, this is absolute nonsense. President Obama originally annuonced opening of numerous tracts of offshore coastal areas for drilling. It was BP's gross ineptness that put a temporary halt to going forward with this.
> 
> As for the commission, please take a look at today's news.
> 
> "Obama's Spill Commission Unleashes a Shocker:
> 
> ...But its second day-long session included a big surprise: Its co-chairmen -- former Florida Senator Bob Graham and William Reilly, former head of the Environmental Protection Agency under the first President Bush -- questioned the need for a six-month ban. In fact, Graham, who long fought against drilling off Florida's coast, said, "We're going to look over (the administration's) shoulder and have some comments to make as to whether we think the judgments they made are appropriate."
> 
> Hmmmm. Maybe the commission isn't as one sided as originally thought?
> 
> Obama's Spill Commission Unleashes a Shocker - Yahoo! News


Mostly it showed they didn't know much about what the situation was "on the ground" down here, nor what their mission was. Which is understandable, since they were appointed and instructed by an administration with the same tendencies.

And if they're so "non one-sided", then why do both the House and Senate want to appoint their own commissions rather than wait for this one to do its work?

I don't hear anyone rushing to the defense of the neutral non-partisan makeup of the commission's membership. Mostly I hear criticism from the middle and right for their being all "green" or politicos, or alternatively silence from those on the left who know their bread is already butter-side up.


----------



## knothead

Boy, I sure hope that work picks up soon. I'm starting to think that I have too much time on my hands.

I don't usually have a problem with coincidences. As long as there aren't too many of them connected to a single event. 
So I didn't really have a hard time with the fact that _"Eleven days prior to the April 20 Deepwater Horizon blowout, Halliburton Co., the contractor in charge of cementing the rig's well, agreed to purchase a little-known company. The firm, Boots and Coots, focuses on oil spill prevention and blowout response. Now, it is assisting with the relief well work - under contract to BP - to help stop the Gulf oil spill._

As oil firms grow, response may slow to crises like Gulf oil spill - CSMonitor.com

Halliburton Snaps Up Boots & Coots - DailyFinance

Then I discovered that Goldman Sachs sold about half of it's stock in BP back in January and March of this year. 
_"Goldman sold 4.9 million shares across three separate funds - 58% of the bank's total holding"_
Goldman Sachs beat oil spill debacle with BP shares sell-off | Business

Ok, now I'm getting interested. Then I read that _"Tony Hayward cashed in about a third of his holding in the company one month before a well on the Deepwater Horizon rig burst, causing an environmental disaster."_
BP chief Tony Hayward sold shares weeks before oil spill - Telegraph

This many coincidences kind of bothers me. Still, I just can't wrap my head around the concept that anyone or any group of people could have known and allowed or God forbid even precipitated this disaster. 
But it goes on. 
I discovered that _"BP PLC and other big oil companies based their plans for responding to a big oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico on U.S. government projections that gave very low odds of oil hitting shore, even in the case of a spill much larger than the current one.
The government models, which oil companies are required to use but have not been updated since 2004, assumed that most of the oil would rapidly evaporate or get broken up by waves or weather"_ BP Based Spill Plans on Outdated Government Models - WSJ.com

Now come on. As hot button a topic as off shore drilling is and the feds don't update their models for six years in a region that is known to be environmentally sensitive? 
Bet You Didn't Know ~ Gulf of Mexico Scientific Knowledge Base Continually Expanding: The Environmental Studies Program Assists MMS In Its Mission Of Leasing, Regulating And Protecting Offshore Environment

That's starting to stretch the limits of my credulity.

But on the other hand, I guess it's like Rahm Emanuel said last November (hmmm): _"You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before". _
Rahm Emanuel Quotes

I wonder who stands to gain here. Hmmmm. Maybe the Bilderberg group? 
_The *Bilderberg Group*, *Bilderberg conference*, or *Bilderberg Club* is an annual, unofficial, invitation-only conference of around 130 guests, most of whom are people of influence in the fields of politics, banking, business, the military and media. Each conference is closed to the public._
Bilderberg Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bilderberg names! Cabal peeks out from shadows

Naaaaa. Couldn't happen. Right?


----------



## w1651

Knot you had me until the Bilderberg group.

Why do I get the feeling this all goes back to that energy meeting in Cheney's office about 8 years ago. You know the one know one else was allowed into and know one took notes at. it is kind of funny how he was no where near Haliburton while in office but was right back in there when he left.

I will say this in Haliburtons defense though. BP did not pack the well casing with mud like they should have and used sea water instead. So I don't think you can blame Haliburton for this mess if the wells foundation was messed up from the git go.I think that Haliburton being there is just a coincidence.
As for Goldman Sacks they needed the money. They just got hit with a 550 million dollar fine for their actions leading up to the bank crisis. The SEC put the whammy down on them. though some think the amount was smaller then expected. I say it should be 1 billion to get their attention.


----------



## Insails

Time to just sieze all of BP's assets...use there money to hire the worlds best people to stop this leak...BP has no clue how to do anything but lie...Time BP quit running our Coast Guard and our country..

Serious Jail time for ALL envolved from BP execs to politicians that allowed the lies and gave control of our Coast Guard to a private buisness......The Coast Guard is our HOMELAND SECURITY and they have FAILED miserably by allowing BP to dictate to them and ruin our Gulf(Homeland)...

From now on no more Coast Guard inspections for life jackets and flares...They have bigger fish to fry like MONTHLY OIL PLATFORM inspections...Then maybe they wont have to work for BP when they should ARRESTING BP for their crimes against our People and Gulf of Mexico..


grrrrr


----------



## knothead

w1651 said:


> Knot you had me until the Bilderberg group.


_Bilderberg also discussed the emergence of a global carbon tax which will be paid directly to the United Nations. Tucker said it will be introduced to the public gradually such as a barely noticable tax at the gas pump, which will later be increase once it has been established._

.Bilderberg Elite Plan Economic Depression - Patriotic Resistance

_I am reminded of a verse in an old song I once heard; "A man with a briefcase can steal much more money than any man with a gun!" _
_Here are the basics of the carbon tax and carbon credits, when you understand this tax and carbon credit system you will understand the enormous wealth it will produce, much greater wealth than oil has ever produced. _
_The carbon tax is pretty much an easy thing to explain; the United Nations has created several commissions to oversee the production of carbon and to tax earthlings based on the amount of carbon they produce. _
_One such commission is the UNFCCC (United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change). Simply put this organization was developed for the purpose of eventually taxing every living person for the carbon produced by their vehicle. There are many more commissions that will eventually tax us for the carbon we produce in every industry and aspect of life._
_Now you can understand how this entire carbon tax is probably going to be the most lucrative business to ever be conceived by man. At the moment there is a small snag to this wonderful plan! It has not yet been declared a law by the biggest carbon producing countries, China and the United States. _
_In order for countries like the United States to adopt such an unpopular law there would have to be extenuating circumstances that would cause Americans to adopt such a law, say maybe scientists who lied about the reality of climate change! Or perhaps an oil spill that was so horrendous that the world finally totally turned on big oil! _
_Post oil spill Obama stated through his staff; *"an energy deal must include some serious effort to price carbon as a way to slow climate change." *_

Contain an Oil Spill BP Oil Leak Was It an Accident?

I'm just sayin.


----------



## therapy23

knothead said:


> _Bilderberg also discussed the emergence of a global carbon tax which will be paid directly to the United Nations. Tucker said it will be introduced to the public gradually such as a barely noticable tax at the gas pump, which will later be increase once it has been established._
> 
> .Bilderberg Elite Plan Economic Depression - Patriotic Resistance
> 
> _I am reminded of a verse in an old song I once heard; "A man with a briefcase can steal much more money than any man with a gun!" _
> _Here are the basics of the carbon tax and carbon credits, when you understand this tax and carbon credit system you will understand the enormous wealth it will produce, much greater wealth than oil has ever produced. _
> _The carbon tax is pretty much an easy thing to explain; the United Nations has created several commissions to oversee the production of carbon and to tax earthlings based on the amount of carbon they produce. _
> _One such commission is the UNFCCC (United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change). Simply put this organization was developed for the purpose of eventually taxing every living person for the carbon produced by their vehicle. There are many more commissions that will eventually tax us for the carbon we produce in every industry and aspect of life._
> _Now you can understand how this entire carbon tax is probably going to be the most lucrative business to ever be conceived by man. At the moment there is a small snag to this wonderful plan! It has not yet been declared a law by the biggest carbon producing countries, China and the United States. _
> _In order for countries like the United States to adopt such an unpopular law there would have to be extenuating circumstances that would cause Americans to adopt such a law, say maybe scientists who lied about the reality of climate change! Or perhaps an oil spill that was so horrendous that the world finally totally turned on big oil! _
> _Post oil spill Obama stated through his staff; *"an energy deal must include some serious effort to price carbon as a way to slow climate change." *_
> 
> Contain an Oil Spill BP Oil Leak Was It an Accident?
> 
> I'm just sayin.


That is pretty cool!
Wish I was in on the UN profits.

But, should I buy BP tomorrow or wait for it to dip once more?


----------



## w1651

Insails said:


> Time to just sieze all of BP's assets...use there money to hire the worlds best people to stop this leak...BP has no clue how to do anything but lie...Time BP quit running our Coast Guard and our country..
> 
> Serious Jail time for ALL envolved from BP execs to politicians that allowed the lies and gave control of our Coast Guard to a private buisness......The Coast Guard is our HOMELAND SECURITY and they have FAILED miserably by allowing BP to dictate to them and ruin our Gulf(Homeland)...
> 
> From now on no more Coast Guard inspections for life jackets and flares...They have bigger fish to fry like MONTHLY OIL PLATFORM inspections...Then maybe they wont have to work for BP when they should ARRESTING BP for their crimes against our People and Gulf of Mexico..
> 
> grrrrr


This is a bit extreme even for me sails. I do agree there needs to be harsh penalties from this but siezing assets is stronger then should be allowed.
There has to be a mandate for this type of disaster a long term mandate as well as short term. 
BP keeps saying that they will pay for this. Well why does it take a guy put in charge months to just get on the job? Let's get this thing handled in a timely fashion using excisting law and holding peoples feet to the fire.
No more panels or commissions in Congress. Let's use the court system and then the Government to back up the decision made by them. I think it was once called the rule of law..
By the way where are the families of the men killed in this explosion? I haven't seen or heard any of the families. Are they working a deal with BP and have to be quiet about it?


----------



## Insails

I haven't seen or heard any of the families. Are they working a deal with BP and have to be quiet about it?

I would imagine the lawyers have the "Gag" order on...

Why should we NOT sieze their assets...We sieze assets of other criminals...Drug dealers,users, scammers,hackers and DUI with injuries...

What makes BP above our laws????? They have lied and used deception from day one and their latest deception is PROOF they are no better than drug dealers...

now this BP Photoshops photo on its Web site; promises to replace altered version | al.com

The law would sieze your assets in a heartbeat for these type CRIMES

least we forget the USCG can sieze your boat if a passenger has any drugs onboard wheather you knew it or not....


----------



## nolatom

While beaucoup Congressional committees and Presidential commissions strut and act important, the original hearing down here, conducted jointly by Coast Guard and MMS, has been quietly going about its business:

BP often chose to take chances, testimony says - Page 3 - NOLA.com

The local media have been much better than the national ones at bringing more light than heat to the table, it seems to me.


----------



## beej67

Insails said:


> Time to just sieze all of BP's assets...use there money to hire the worlds best people to stop this leak...BP has no clue how to do anything but lie...Time BP quit running our Coast Guard and our country..
> 
> Serious Jail time for ALL envolved from BP execs to politicians that allowed the lies and gave control of our Coast Guard to a private buisness......The Coast Guard is our HOMELAND SECURITY and they have FAILED miserably by allowing BP to dictate to them and ruin our Gulf(Homeland)...
> 
> From now on no more Coast Guard inspections for life jackets and flares...They have bigger fish to fry like MONTHLY OIL PLATFORM inspections...Then maybe they wont have to work for BP when they should ARRESTING BP for their crimes against our People and Gulf of Mexico..
> 
> grrrrr


Unfortunately, the response effort to this spill was basically mandated by congressional law that passed after the Valdez.

After the Valdez, everyone was so angry that tax money was being used to clean up the mess, that they passed a law saying companies had to clean up their own messes.

Then we got this thing, and the first month of response was basically us watching BP try to clean up their own mess. Because that's what congress told us to do, last decade.


----------



## beej67




----------



## fjon

*I have a bad feeling Matt Simmons is correct*

I do not believe BP. I believe Simmons. It's too bad the bloomberg reporters were too facile to understand what he was saying and ask intelligent questions.










Gulf coast and Florida sailors may have a sticky future.


----------



## knothead

fjon said:


> I do not believe BP. I believe Simmons.


Don't believe any of them.

BP Photoshopped Fake Crisis Command Center for Website (Pics) : TreeHugger

AMERICAblog News: BP fakes another oil spill photo, this time of 'top kill' exercise


----------



## fjon

I believe no institutional source anymore. But after decades of watching politics and markets, I tend to give whistleblowers the benefit of the doubt 'cause they are most often proven right. Simmons isn't a kook. He's got a good rep and has been one of the largest lenders to Gulf oil drillers for 30 years.


----------



## knothead

Not too long ago I would have scoffed at the idea that this could be a conspiracy. Not any more. Too many thing just simply don't add up.

Here's a pretty emotional video.


----------



## QuickMick

con·spir·a·cy   /kənˈspɪrəsi/ Show Spelled[kuhn-spir-uh-see] Show IPA 
-noun, plural -cies. 
1. the act of conspiring. 
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot. 
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government. 
4. Law . an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act. 
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

hmmm..based on the flagrant disregard for safety.... looks like they meet 2-5


----------



## knothead

Criminal Investigation of BP Staged Oil Spill Vital to Gulf Recovery


----------



## nolatom

Knothead, who is this tinfoil-hat person with the microphone?

If people want a site with decent non-conspiracy-nutjob recounting of the Coast Guard/MMS hearings (which I have been to), then try this one:

oil spill hearings update | NOLA.com

Though reading it might let the facts get in the way of a really good story.

Now we're waiting out TD3, soon to be TS Bonnie, which will put everything on hold for about a week. Hope it doesn't send too much oil ashore.


----------



## smackdaddy

One quick question related to all this...

Do you guys think the Barbie Corvette or the RV was better for our young ladies in terms of life goals.

I'm thinking the Corvette.

Discuss.


----------



## w1651

smackdaddy said:


> One quick question related to all this...
> 
> Do you guys think the Barbie Corvette or the RV was better for our young ladies in terms of life goals.
> 
> I'm thinking the Corvette.
> 
> Discuss.


I dunno smack! I do know I got more with my Porsche then my friend did with his corvette.


----------



## Insails

Key rig alarm disabled before blast -rig worker | Reuters

It just gets worse by the minute...such a crime


----------



## knothead

This isn't directed at you Ins.


----------



## Insails

top secret???

gCaptain.com » BP's (not really) Top Secret Oil Spill Command Post

one big cover up....


----------



## k1vsk

for 30+ years of having worked in the joint command centers during major oil spills, at no time, in no case, for any spill has free access been allowed to anyone out of curiosity. Wonder why this SOP is now called a "top secret cover-up" - rhetorical question only!


----------



## Insails

Just far too many times BP has been caught lying...How can they ever be trusted???...THEY CAN"T and it's all self inflicted by trying to cover the truth..

There is no taking up for them anymore...wrong is wrong and what they did and the tactics they have used is criminal and it will come out in the hearings and they will pay the price....

They are NOT open to anyone and we are sick and tired of them and their lies on the Gulf Coast ...and NOBODY can change how we feel for how they have acted and treated us...and NO words can make them right.


----------



## kd3pc

I can confirm that K1 has it right on this one, no cover up...just good security and risk assessment...standard operating procedures

and I would also include electrical power transmission centers, pipeline control centers, nuclear power plants (they even have armed ladies and gents there), VISA, any large bank, transunion, experian, and equifax transaction centers..etc...etc..etc..


----------



## Insails

so all BP can get right is their own security and that makes the whole spill right and them GREAT??????????????? 

If they had nothing to hide there is no reason to turn a way a REPORTER with ID...

I don't think so, once they offered openess to the press then someone with credentials saying they are press shows up to do a story and they refuse access just proves they are not OPEN and the reporter did his job to show they were not open to the press as PROMISED...BP stated they are working 24 hours a day..well someone came to see and they would not let them see...so are they really working or lying AGAIN?

They should have let the reporter in and not shown him the door with hints of physical removal...

just more reason NOT to trust BP

I would trust a MARITIME REPORTER(one of us a sailor) over BP anyday

and with CHINA and RUSSIA drilling in our GULF how can anything be TOP SECRET?..

If it was RUSSIA or CHINA with this spill acting like BP would you trust CHINA and RUSSIA at their word??


----------



## k1vsk

Insails said:


> so all BP can get right is their own security and that makes the whole spill right and them GREAT???????????????
> 
> If they had nothing to hide there is no reason to turn a way a REPORTER with ID...
> 
> I don't think so, once they offered openess to the press then someone with credentials saying they are press shows up to do a story and they refuse access just proves they are not OPEN and the reporter did his job to show they were not open to the press as PROMISED...BP stated they are working 24 hours a day..well someone came to see and they would not let them see...so are they really working or lying AGAIN?
> 
> They should have let the reporter in and not shown him the door with hints of physical removal...
> 
> just more reason NOT to trust BP
> 
> I would trust a MARITIME REPORTER(one of us a sailor) over BP anyday
> 
> and with CHINA and RUSSIA drilling in our GULF how can anything be TOP SECRET?..
> 
> If it was RUSSIA or CHINA with this spill acting like BP would you trust CHINA and RUSSIA at their word??


Not too sure how one makes the link between office security with China, North Korea, Russia, etc... nor was my comment a suggestion they deserve your trust - merely trying to point out that simple office security is commonplace. How one leaps from this to trying to hide the truth just feeds the rampant paranoia expressed here.


----------



## Insails

First of all it's only paranoia IF they were telling the truth which they have not done since day one...The rampid PARANOIA is what defines BP...they are the ones using deception , hiding truths ,altering photo's and not allowing the press in.Why if they were honest did it take almost a month to view the real flow rate(they lied about)?????..So I am not paranoid they are...why because they are hiding the truth...paranoia runs deep and its their OWN fault brought on by their fears of us finding the truth and IMPOSING FINES

so if you are going to name call and call someone paranoid call BP paranoid.. .. not us living and smelling the death from their lie everyday...

Did I hide the flow rate to keep from being fined??....NO

Did I use dispersants that are killing the gulf to hide the oil ??...NO

Did I alter Photo's to hide the truth??...NO

Did I stage clean-up infront of the cameras when the President visited only to remove them when the press left??...NO

Did I promise openess to the press the deny them access??...NO


Now who is paranoid?


----------



## k1vsk

The is obviously useless but

most release rates are not knows definitively until late in the game, if ever. Most are usually under-estimated for obvious reasons - this one being no different than any other.

The fine has nothing to do with the flow rate!

Do you really think they could hide the spill by using dispersants?

Do you really think things are not staged when the Pres shows up with his media hoards at any oil spill or any other event for that matter?
The list goes on but why bother...


----------



## Insails

The fine has nothing to do with the flow rate! 
They are fined by the barrell so yes it does...BP lied and said 5k barrells when it was MUCH higher....proven fact and was also stated in the hearing WHY...they got caught


Do you really think they could hide the spill by using dispersants? 

nope but they tried they even tried to deny the PLUMES created by them..FACT

Do you really think things are not staged when the Pres shows up with his media hoards at any oil spill or any other event for that matter?


was not the time when we can see them....they screwed up ..why not admit that rather than praise them????


Fact is they have lied from day one and are PARANOID ........FACT it shows in their behavior...


----------



## kd3pc

K1 wrote

"think things are not staged when the Pres shows up with his media hoards "...

every president has these events and stops and if you saw the scripting, paperwork, man hours and sheer numbers of people involved..you would really get POed..all that equals $$$$$ out the wazoo.

Having worked near White House Communications for a while...you get to see the "real and up close" goings on...

they send out at least 3 "sets" of pres gear and no one really knows whose is the right set, or the set that is going to be used...every step/minute/arrival/departure is scripted to the Pres, and they really don't care what his politics are...they just do the job, and then the next one and so on..

.. and when I say sets, I mean everything from the big plane all the way down to the security teams and secret service and PA systems, podiums, and cables...all have to be set up and torn down by our military and their contractors...

On the other front, every Corp in america behaves just like BP has in this incident....there are people paid to do all those things that In mentions...deliberate or by accident it is only perception and perspective that one can use to decide...

One large Corp in Chicago, had a several hundred page "disaster" plan...and like BP never got off the first page before the stuff hit the fan when it was tested, and then later put in place, yet they have dozens/hundreds of people working on the plans. 

As part of my training them, I would tell them that if their disaster/business continuity/whatever PC term they use was more than 3 pages long and involved more than two talking heads....it was doomed to failure....and as BP has found out...they too are doomed...as the right people are never where they are supposed to be, those do gooders who are around and that know more go ahead and talk to the media, which BTW is never a good idea no matter where you stand

And although BP has stepped in it every step of the way, they are not unique, nor are they "trying" to be devious...just the way big business behaves...

Sadly you guys in the Gulf are, and will pay the price short term, the rest of us will get a few years grace before the effects stomp us...


----------



## SailingTC

Here is some food for thought. It seems spills has been going on for awhile.
washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines


----------



## Insails

Sadly you guys in the Gulf are, and will pay the price short term, the rest of us will get a few years grace before the effects stomp us...


I hope when you get stomped like we are others don't call you names and beat you while you are down....the one paying the cost for all of us should be BP for their actions and bribes to MMS to get the permits...

yes they cheated the system as many buisness's do...but they got caught so it's time now more than ever for honesty...They know we are right or they would not be covering up BP signs at stations across the south with canvas signs that say SHELL....Their rep is so bad now they are hurting their franchises


----------



## kd3pc

Insails said:


> Sadly you guys in the Gulf are, and will pay the price short term, the rest of us will get a few years grace before the effects stomp us...
> 
> I hope when you get stomped like we are others do call you names and beat you while you are down....the one paying the cost for all of us should be BP for their actions and bribes to MMS to get the permits...
> 
> ----I don't disagree at all...they should be made to pay and I am not beating you when you are down, it is just that the nation expected this Pres to "kick a**" and he refuses to do so...from the media reports that BP "Paid $20B" when they have only to pay $5B a year all the way down to the points that you have made....No one will stand up and force their hand. Maybe they can't, but I betcha they could do more, if they wanted to and if this was a priority. It isn't and as long as this Pres can make it "look like" he is active and involved...what you see is what you get. Nothing has changed, nor will it in his administration.
> 
> yes they cheated the system as many buisness's do...but they got caught so it's time now more than ever for honesty...They know we are right or they would not be covering up BP signs at stations across the south with canvas signs that say SHELL....Their rep is so bad now they are hurting their franchises
> 
> -----They are not going to be honest, we have learned that already, so next step is to get the victims involved, you guys are going to have to get your congressboobs, and Governor's to step up, quit whining, and DO something...like collectively showing up at the WH...but they can't and won't even do that, as their politics/agendas are getting in the way...and they don't want to risk a career getting it wrong.
> 
> I have tried writing/web to the affected states congressmen, but they won't take info from me...I am out of state, therefore out of mind...and even that PO's me...as here in VA the state of MD can make laws restricting MY use of the Potomac River and Chesapeake Bay...and there is not a thing I can do about it.


As I posted weeks ago....WE are collectively so screwed and so far have merely said "thank you" to the Pres and BP for doing it...

And we as a nation are so apathetic, so worried about our next handout, and PC behavior...that until this affects us personally and directly in the backside....we just go on our merry way...

I feel for you in this, and as you, I know in my heart that BP will escape this along with our Pres and his minions...fro pennies on the dollar or worse..they are selling assets and circling the wagons...and no one wants their problems or to be near them till this all "blows over"

it is just not important in the way that you and I think it is important...


----------



## Insails

kd3pc said:


> As I posted weeks ago....WE are collectively so screwed and so far have merely said "thank you" to the Pres and BP for doing it...
> 
> And we as a nation are so apathetic, so worried about our next handout, and PC behavior...that until this affects us personally and directly in the backside....we just go on our merry way...
> 
> I feel for you in this, and as you, I know in my heart that BP will escape this along with our Pres and his minions...fro pennies on the dollar or worse..they are selling assets and circling the wagons...and no one wants their problems or to be near them till this all "blows over"
> 
> it is just not important in the way that you and I think it is important...


Sorry ...I just noticed I left out an "n't" ..I fixed that!!..should have been I hope they don't beat you when you are down


----------



## k1vsk

Insails said:


> The fine has nothing to do with the flow rate!
> They are fined by the barrell so yes it does...


On what do you base this? Statutory reference? OPA Section and paragraph?
[won't presume the term "barrell" is anything other than a typo...]


----------



## Insails

here you go K1 ..there are fines up to 4300 dollars a barrel...so it is in BPs favor to lie and cover up........now post a link that shows there are no fines...

You doupt people and never post links...

here is a link on the fines...

prove it wrong and post a link...

Special report: Civil fine in Gulf spill could be $4,300 barrel | Reuters

we all know they covered up how much was leaking to avoid the fines that may now MAY reach 34 billion dollars...

SHARP RISE IN FINES

The basic fine, according to the act, is $1,100 per barrel spilled. But the penalty can rise to $4,300 a barrel if a federal court rules the spill resulted from gross negligence. The fines were originally set at $1,000 to $3,000 but that was raised in 2004 to keep up with inflation, according to Tracy Hester, head of the Environmental Law and Policy program at the University of Houston.


----------



## k1vsk

Insails said:


> here you go K1 ..there are fines up to 4300 dollars a barrel...so it is in BPs favor to lie and cover up........now post a link that shows there are no fines...
> 
> You doupt people and never post links...
> 
> here is a link on the fines...
> 
> prove it wrong and post a link...
> 
> Special report: Civil fine in Gulf spill could be $4,300 barrel | Reuters


I didn't know that and I admit I was incorrect. It will be interesting to see if the government pursues this clause in the CWA which it has never done previously (to my knowledge) probably because gross negligence is always a high bar to reach even in this case.

I wonder how difficult it will be for BP to defend this civil litigation
based upon a number (spill volume) no one can precisely determine.


----------



## w1651

How much do you wanna bet that BP or the Gov uses the 20 billion to cover the fines? 
I don't trust anyone here. Not the Gov not BP not Congress no one. 
And K1 You know darn well that BP grossly under estimated the amount of oil entering the gulf. To go from 5000 to over 40,000 in a period of 2 or 3 days proves just how deceitful of the company truly is.
The latest and great is our buddy Tony may be looking for another job. He may get the axe tomorrow or so. But don't grieve to hard they are working out a compensation package for him.


----------



## remetau

I'm enjoying this:

World Blog - Eco-warriors give London small taste of spill pain


----------



## w1651

What's really funny is that our buddy Tony is being redeployed to Russia so the guy from Houston can take over for him here. According to the greatest news agency ever (the daily show with jon stewart ) the guy from Houston got kicked out of Russia. So BP basically did the old bait and switch play. 
These guys make Con men look like clowns at Barnum and Bailey.


----------



## knothead

Here's something to think about.


Thursday, Jul. 29, 2010
*The BP Spill: Has the Damage Been Exaggerated?*

By Michael Grunwald / Port Fourchon, La.

BP Oil Spill: Has Environmental Damage Been Exaggerated? -- Printout -- TIME

or even......

*Is it possible the "official" Gulf oil spill STORY is a grand illusion?*

Is it possible the "official" Gulf oil spill STORY is a grand illusion? | Ron Paul 2012 | Campaign for Liberty at the Daily Paul

I know, I know. Nobody wants to think.


----------



## w1651

knothead said:


> Here's something to think about.
> 
> BP Oil Spill: Has Environmental Damage Been Exaggerated? -- Printout -- TIME
> 
> or even......
> 
> *Is it possible the "official" Gulf oil spill STORY is a grand illusion?*
> 
> Is it possible the "official" Gulf oil spill STORY is a grand illusion? | Ron Paul 2012 | Campaign for Liberty at the Daily Paul
> 
> I know, I know. Nobody wants to think.


I think it's more possible that millions of gallons of dispersments probably sent it to the water column or the bottom.


----------



## knothead

w1651 said:


> I think it's more possible that millions of gallons of dispersments probably sent it to the water column or the bottom.


_Researchers said they saw no visible signs of oil or dispersants during the first 10-day leg of their 22-day research mission on board the R/V Seward Johnson, a 204-foot vessel equipped with cranes to enable deployment of a submersible vehicle on board._
_"I haven't seen any oil so far," said Don Liberatore, chief pilot of the submersible._

Undersea researchers find little oil spill damage so far


----------



## nolatom

Lots of "I think.." prognositcations, ranging from millenial disaster to bliss. Here's one local update dealing with surface oil:

Some paint a rosy picture of crisis's end, but experts say looks can be deceiving - NOLA.com

Regarding what we *can't* see, what "we think" now, isn't worth spit. Time, and patience, will let us know in due course what the real outcome will be. No instant gratification on this one, except of course the considerable gratification that we no longer have a gusher gushing.


----------



## k1vsk

nolatom said:


> Lots of "I think.." prognositcations, ranging from millenial disaster to bliss.
> 
> Time, and patience, will let us know in due course what the real outcome will be.


I don't have enough patience to try counting the number of posts here in which some seem to be convinced of complete doom resulting from this spill, dispersant use, the government or various combinations of the above. Not to mention the various self-proclaimed experts quoted here who somehow can predict the future.

The credible environmental assessments have only just begun and typically take years to produce quantifiable results.

In the meantime, all we really know is there has certainly been an economic impact for everyone involved or effected.


----------



## knothead

k1vsk said:


> all we really know is there has certainly been an economic impact for everyone involved or effected.


All I "really know" is that we've been lied to from day one and will continue to be lied to by everyone involved.


----------



## nolatom

I'm going diving a few miles off Pensacola on Sunday, and intend to swim off the beach afterwards, too, since I've heard it's pretty clean. Gotta support the mid-Gulf recreation industry as a civic duty, right?

Might as well "enjoy the present", since grousing on the internet isn't all that uplifting...

I'll report back, of course, with the results of this scientific research.


----------



## w1651

knothead said:


> All I "really know" is that we've been lied to from day one and will continue to be lied to by everyone involved.


Very true Knot.

People aren't talking about the Florida professors that are researching this and have found oil droplets submerged in the water column offshore. All the main universities and colleges here are involved. (I wonder if they count as experts?)
The news media don't seem to want to stray south of LA or Pensacola. We also have fisherman and charter boat captains having their boats repossessed all over this area. There just isn't any Tourism going on here anymore and the trickle down is affecting everyone.


----------



## k1vsk

There is an AP article in today's St Pete Times citing the "plight" of hundreds of fisherman in the area who BP has been paying $1500/day (fifteen hundred dollars per day) for the past 3 months. Do the math.


----------



## Ezzspike

Sadly the waterfront, marshes and beach in your part of the world are trashed for many years, mark my word. Solutions not politics will save the day, but acceptance of that idea is not here yet, and may not be with our leadership. No amount of "cleanup" or lawsuits is going to make it right

Don't disagree..but solutions here in Louisiana have be far and few between....the nation has no problem taking our natural resources and trashing the coast for the last 60 years but could case less in helping save the wetlands that use to protect us from hurricanes.. Hell at the rate we have been going Baton Rouge will be on the coast in 20 years


----------



## w1651

k1vsk said:


> There is an AP article in today's St Pete Times citing the "plight" of hundreds of fisherman in the area who BP has been paying $1500/day (fifteen hundred dollars per day) for the past 3 months. Do the math.


Don't believe everything you read in that rag they call a news paper. Your one of the few that still read it. Not to mention you used the two letters that are the poster child for useless media. AP ! They haven't reported real news but an agenda only for a long time.
The facts are on the local news here every night. Here's one in many.

Popular boat captain fights Bank of America over seizure | Tampa Bay, St. Petersburg, Clearwater, Sarasota | WTSP.com

This guy has done chartering for years around here. He is only one in a hole host of foreclosures around our beaches and area.


----------



## k1vsk

Interesting.

By the way, I misstated the attribution - it was a Reuters story which appeared in Tampa Herald...

Now what?



w1651 said:


> Don't believe everything you read in that rag they call a news paper. Your one of the few that still read it. Not to mention you used the two letters that are the poster child for useless media. AP ! They haven't reported real news but an agenda only for a long time.
> The facts are on the local news here every night. Here's one in many.
> 
> Popular boat captain fights Bank of America over seizure | Tampa Bay, St. Petersburg, Clearwater, Sarasota | WTSP.com
> 
> This guy has done chartering for years around here. He is only one in a hole host of foreclosures around our beaches and area.


----------



## knothead

k1vsk said:


> There is an AP article in today's St Pete Times citing the "plight" of hundreds of fisherman in the area who BP has been paying $1500/day (fifteen hundred dollars per day) for the past 3 months. Do the math.


I would like to read that article. Please provide a link.

The only article in the Tampa Herald on Saturday that was related to the oil spill that I could find was this one.

Coastal oil fears dissipate | HeraldTribune.com


----------



## k1vsk

knothead said:


> I would like to read that article. Please provide a link.
> 
> The only article in the Tampa Herald on Saturday that was related to the oil spill that I could find was this one.
> 
> Coastal oil fears dissipate | HeraldTribune.com


Assuming it is similar to the hard copy newspaper, the article was on page 2. I could probably scan and email if you really need it.


----------



## knothead

k1vsk said:


> Assuming it is similar to the hard copy newspaper, the article was on page 2. I could probably scan and email if you really need it.


If you could just post the name of the author and some actual key words, I could probably find it. I googled "plight" "hundreds of fishermen" "1500 dollars per day" and nothing came up.

I am very interested in reading the article. I live in the Saint Pete area and have heard nothing about this. Meanwhile, my business in on it's last legs and I am almost to the point of liquidating my equipment and inventory. So yeah, I kinda do need it.


----------



## w1651

k1vsk said:


> Interesting.
> 
> By the way, I misstated the attribution - it was a Reuters story which appeared in Tampa Herald...
> 
> Now what?


Tampa doesn't have a Herald!


----------



## k1vsk

knothead said:


> If you could just post the name of the author and some actual key words, I could probably find it. I googled "plight" "hundreds of fishermen" "1500 dollars per day" and nothing came up.
> 
> I am very interested in reading the article. I live in the Saint Pete area and have heard nothing about this. Meanwhile, my business in on it's last legs and I am almost to the point of liquidating my equipment and inventory. So yeah, I kinda do need it.


Just retrieved it from the recycle bin.

The banner reads "As Cleanup Slows, Boats Idle" and says, in part, " Shortly after the spill began gushing more than 3 months ago, fishing was banned in vast areas of the Gulf and many of the local fisherman didn't know where their next paycheck would come from. Then came stability when BP started paying up to $1500 a day for fisherman to perform the gritty work of scooping gunk from the surface of the Gulf".

The article goes on to say that " at one point, there were as many as 1,600 vessels working for BP. That number has now dropped to 300".


----------



## nolatom

nolatom said:


> I'm going diving a few miles off Pensacola on Sunday, and intend to swim off the beach afterwards, too, since I've heard it's pretty clean. Gotta support the mid-Gulf recreation industry as a civic duty, right?
> 
> Might as well "enjoy the present", since grousing on the internet isn't all that uplifting...
> 
> I'll report back, of course, with the results of this scientific research.


Okay, as promised...

Dived two sites, 8-10 miles SE of Pensacola ship channel, 100 feet and 80 feet, respectively. Then went for a swim off Perdido Key Beach, where the National Seashore is.

No visible oil anywhere, in the water or ashore (and I looked), plenty of fish everywhere, including large teeming groups of bait fish on surface. And if I drank any Corexit, it had neither taste nor side effects ;-)

So, if you're able, and inclined, to get away from your keyboards, come be a tourist on these beautiful and underpopulated shores with shops that need your business. Anything east of Orange Beach is a "go".


----------



## knothead

k1vsk said:


> Just retrieved it from the recycle bin.
> 
> The banner reads "As Cleanup Slows, Boats Idle" and says, in part, " Shortly after the spill began gushing more than 3 months ago, fishing was banned in vast areas of the Gulf and many of the local fisherman didn't know where their next paycheck would come from. Then came stability when BP started paying up to $1500 a day for fisherman to perform the gritty work of scooping gunk from the surface of the Gulf".
> 
> The article goes on to say that " at one point, there were as many as 1,600 vessels working for BP. That number has now dropped to 300".


K1, Thank you. 
For those interested here's a link to the article.

Idle fishermen fret as oil clean-up jobs disappear - St. Petersburg Times

K1, could you clarify the point you were trying to make by referencing this article?


----------



## QuickMick

well, paying 1500$ a day and _up to_ 1500 dollars a day have vastly different meanings


----------



## remetau

I could see paying $1,500 a day for a vessel with crew. Even a small fishing boat with a single captain on board typically charges about $600 - $800 for an 8 hour fishing trip. If they are cleaning up oil, then they would need additional crew.


----------



## k1vsk

knothead said:


> K1, Thank you.
> For those interested here's a link to the article.
> 
> Idle fishermen fret as oil clean-up jobs disappear - St. Petersburg Times
> 
> K1, could you clarify the point you were trying to make by referencing this article?


Sure. Someone posted the following:
"We also have fisherman and charter boat captains having their boats repossessed all over this area. There just isn't any Tourism going on here anymore and the trickle down is affecting everyone."

and I thought the word "everyone" might not be totally objective given that it appears some might be profiting from this disaster.


----------



## knothead

k1vsk said:


> Sure. Someone posted the following:
> "We also have fisherman and charter boat captains having their boats repossessed all over this area. There just isn't any Tourism going on here anymore and the trickle down is affecting everyone."
> 
> and I thought the word "everyone" might not be totally objective given that it appears some might be profiting from this disaster.


I see. 
I know that there are going to be a lot of people profiting from the disaster, like other oil companies, chemical companies like the ones who made the dispersant, lobbyists, Halliburton, lawyers, Goldman Sachs, Tony Hayward, etc. etc. 
I doubt that the fishing industry is going to be on the list of those who profit from this.

Who's Set To Profit From The BP Oil Spill? The Gulf Coast 'Spillionaires' (PHOTOS)


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## w1651

k1vsk said:


> Sure. Someone posted the following:
> "We also have fisherman and charter boat captains having their boats repossessed all over this area. There just isn't any Tourism going on here anymore and the trickle down is affecting everyone."
> 
> and I thought the word "everyone" might not be totally objective given that it appears some might be profiting from this disaster.


Great article expressing the compensation of the La, Al, Ms, and Pensacola regions. However "everyone" meant the Tampa Bay Area here where I live unlike the region spoken of in the article. Perhaps I could have expressed that better in my post or you could invest in a map.
I own a business here in Pinellas county Florida and just like Knot I am feeling the squeeze as well. Not unlike other people here are either.
Maybe BP is compensating the peoples of the upper gulf regions which is admirable since I know they could buy their way out of it. 
But here I can assure you I have not seen, met, or talked with anyone in business or on the water getting a dime from them. And it sickens me to see our eateries, charter boats, and way of life going to the wayside.
All due to a company that refused to stop and look at the safety risks involved and just slow down a little. 
I don't have a problem that they drilled but how they went about it. We will bounce back but unfortunately some in this area already will lose and have lost everything.

Knot mail me here. I would like to see what you do.


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## k1vsk

w1651 said:


> Great article expressing the compensation of the La, Al, Ms, and Pensacola regions. However "everyone" meant the Tampa Bay Area here where I live


I think the article was clearly addressing the areas directly impacted by the spill, not Tampa, Miami, Boca, Melbourne, Jacksonville, etc... all of which are perceived to be impacted.


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## w1651

k1vsk said:


> I think the article was clearly addressing the areas directly impacted by the spill, not Tampa, Miami, Boca, Melbourne, Jacksonville, etc... all of which are perceived to be impacted.


That is open for debate.


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## rockDAWG

Old-School Oil Clean-Up
A worker scoops oil by hand in the Chinese port city of Dalian, where a spill of almost half-a-million gallons of crude on the northeast coast was, by week's end, reportedly under control.

Hey, whatever it takes

Old-School Oil Clean-Up - The Week's Best Photos: 7.30.10 - Photo Gallery - LIFE


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## w1651

Nice pic there dog! Get that man a pair of gloves....


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## knothead

*Gulf Compensation Chief Retreats From Promises to Speed Claims Process*

Just over two weeks ago, Kenneth Feinberg took over the process for handling damage claims from the Gulf oil spill, pledging to cut down the response time from BP's widely criticized system to two days for individuals and seven days for businesses that file fully documented claims.

Earlier this week, Feinberg apologized to those affected by the delays. Feinberg said that while many claims could not be processed because people hadn't sent enough documentation, he acknowledged that his staff was falling behind even in managing fully documented claims.

Gulf Compensation Chief Retreats From Promises to Speed Claims Process - ProPublica


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## therapy23

Anybody know where all the oil is now?

There was a lot right?


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## k1vsk

There are still some pockets of weathered oil scattered throughout the northern Gulf region which are not transportable and are being removed at a reasonable pace. The vast majority of the spill has been dispersed throughout the water column and apparently been consumed by endemic oil eating microbes without significant degradation of oxygen levels as was originally feared. Although this was the largest spill in the U.S. and therefore caused some hysterical fears of environmental disaster, it is following the same pattern of other similarly sized spills in the Middle East and Africa where natural degradation mitigated most of feared impact.

The environmental impact assessment has only just begun and will take many months to a year before any real evidence is produced quantifying the impact.

As I said previously, the actual environmental impact of a spill and it's volume are mutually exclusive things. The focus on size is too simplistic a measure of impact. Unfortunately, lots of people can't seem to comprehend the significance unless there is a number.


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## w1651

k1vsk said:


> There are still some pockets of weathered oil scattered throughout the northern Gulf region which are not transportable and are being removed at a reasonable pace. The vast majority of the spill has been dispersed throughout the water column and apparently been consumed by endemic oil eating microbes without significant degradation of oxygen levels as was originally feared. Although this was the largest spill in the U.S. and therefore caused some hysterical fears of environmental disaster, it is following the same pattern of other similarly sized spills in the Middle East and Africa where natural degradation mitigated most of feared impact.
> 
> The environmental impact assessment has only just begun and will take many months to a year before any real evidence is produced quantifying the impact.
> 
> As I said previously, the actual environmental impact of a spill and it's volume are mutually exclusive things. The focus on size is too simplistic a measure of impact. Unfortunately, lots of people can't seem to comprehend the significance unless there is a number.


Or it's on the bottom outta sight outta mind.


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## k1vsk

w1651 said:


> Or it's on the bottom outta sight outta mind.


That's precisely where virtually all the sampling is taking place. Nothing "outta mind" there. Surface sampling is a futile exercise for which even the academic institutions grad students are aware.


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## w1651

k1vsk said:


> That's precisely where virtually all the sampling is taking place. Nothing "outta mind" there. Surface sampling is a futile exercise for which even the academic institutions grad students are aware.


Or it could be a million gallons of dispersant put it there. Just haven't found the bulk of it yet. 
I know some of it is off the coast of Pensacola Beach on the bottom. They found that much of it in about 60 feet of water. And not a microbe having lunch in sight.


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## k1vsk

w1651 said:


> Or it could be a million gallons of dispersant put it there. Just haven't found the bulk of it yet.
> I know some of it is off the coast of Pensacola Beach on the bottom. They found that much of it in about 60 feet of water. And not a microbe having lunch in sight.


Actually it couldn't and you can't see microbes but then some people will believe what you want regardless of reality. I can't debate perception. If you ever want to discuss the science, I'll be happy to do that.


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## w1651

k1vsk said:


> Actually it couldn't and you can't see microbes but then some people will believe what you want regardless of reality. I can't debate perception. If you ever want to discuss the science, I'll be happy to do that.


Science ! K1 Please.

Your so blinded by your own point of view no one and nothing else matters. Science ! Ya right. You won't even acknowledge oil has been found on the bottom in 60 feet of water off the coast of the pan handle of Florida. And the Facts are right in front of you along with the pictures of it. Science! 
You totally misinterpret the facts. You can"t even handle reality. 
When you can deal with the facts of life and this situation we can talk science until then enjoy your own little perfect world. 
In the meantime I and others will be voting out the Aholes who support and supported those monsters at BP.

Science! Your Funny:laugher


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## k1vsk

Still waiting...


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## w1651

k1vsk said:


> Still waiting...


And you will keep waiting. You Sir are a non entity. You don't matter. Your refusal to accept the most fundamental facts of the situation excludes you from any conversation. 
But enjoy your wait.:laugher Your to funny.


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## k1vsk

Perfect example of the failure of our elementary school system! - it's *you're* *too* funny. But you couldn't have chosen a more appropriate or entertaining ending.


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## RTB

The news is pretty quiet about the oil right now. Is the well totally capped?


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## nolatom

w1651 said:


> Or it could be a million gallons of dispersant put it there. Just haven't found the bulk of it yet.
> I know some of it is off the coast of Pensacola Beach on the bottom. They found that much of it in about 60 feet of water. And not a microbe having lunch in sight.


Funny thing about that. I don't know where "they" were, but I dived off Pensacola, in about 100', then in about 80', a month ago. Then dived off Orange Beach last Monday, in about 80' and then around 70'. Couldn't find any oil, or traces, anywhere. Not saying it ain't out there, just not where I was. Nor where anyone else who's been running either dive boat was, either.


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## w1651

Here you go

Underwater oil found off Florida coast | Fox10tv.com

Don't look K1 it's not science.


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## sailhog

nolatom said:


> Funny thing about that. I don't know where "they" were, but I dived off Pensacola, in about 100', then in about 80', a month ago. Then dived off Orange Beach last Monday, in about 80' and then around 70'. Couldn't find any oil, or traces, anywhere. Not saying it ain't out there, just not where I was. Nor where anyone else who's been running either dive boat was, either.


I saw a local report that they found significant subsurface oil in a canyon about 40 or 50 miles south of us (Seaside area). The Gulf here seems a little out of kilter, like it has indigestion. Weirdly long June grass season, followed by thousands of sea slugs washing ashore...

A friend of mine pointed out that all of the oil that ended up in the Gulf could fill about two N.O. Superdomes. When you compare that with the volume of the Gulf, it puts it in some sort of perspective..... not that it wasn't devastating to the marshes, untold marine creatures, business, etc. It was one difficult, strange summer here on the Florida panhandle.... Hope all are well.


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## lydanynom

*Snot.*

Sea snot.


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## snb25

my "e" some how fell off or has gone missing now saying sea not blues ........ hope some joker doesnt move my last letter in front of ...not ..... lol.... luvs joni....


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## knothead

USF study finds more sick fish in oil spill area than rest of Gulf of Mexico - Tampa Bay Times

"We still are seeing sick fish offshore and the USF survey confirmed our findings of 2 to 5 percent of red snapper being affected," James Cowan, an oceanography professor at Louisiana State University, said in an email to the Tampa Bay Times.

In addition, Cowan said, laboratory studies of those sick fish "are beginning to trickle out that show that chronic exposure to oil and dispersant causes everything from impacts to the genome to compromised immune systems. Similar findings &#8230; are being found in shrimps and crabs in the same locations."

While Murawski is cautious about saying there's a connection, Cowan, who has been studying fish in the gulf for 25 years, said, "I absolutely believe these things are connected to the spill."


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## w1651

Imagine that the oil and dispersant didn't just evaporate. 
They didn't say anything about sick or dead dolphins did they?


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## travlin-easy

A lot of the stuff they talked about in the newspaper article takes place in locations where there was not an oil spill. Read the article carefully and you'll quickly discover the biologist, like most marine scientists, does not provide any concrete information. There was no information on tissue samples that indicated anything other than bacterial infections, which are very common in the Gulf's "Dead Zone", a biologically dead area of the Gulf that is growing by leaps and bounds. The above article can be found at USF study finds more sick fish in oil spill area than rest of Gulf of Mexico - Tampa Bay Times

In the article, the biologist talked about 2 to 5 percent of the red snapper being diseased. In contrast, 90-percent of the striped bass in Chesapeake Bay are infected with mycobacterium, a wasting disease that carries a huge mortality rate, and there are known cases of humans contracting the disease from handling striped bass. Gives you that warm, fuzzy feeling about our waterways, doesn't it. 

Now, the person that talked about canyons in the Gulf of Mexico, how about some specifics on the location(s) of the canyons--particularly those located in the vicinity of the spill. I can't seem to locate any Gulf of Mexico canyons on my charts of that area, but I'm going to take a better look tomorrow afternoon when I find some free time.

Cheers,

Gary


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