# Name reasons why people are getting out of boating..



## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

...dealing with BS contractors that don't live up or follow up or never show up to what they say or what they will do or won't do..is a major reason...


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

aa3jy said:


> ...dealing with BS contractors that don't live up or follow up or never show up to what they say or what they will do or won't do..is a major reason...


that sounds like a reason to learn to do your own work. 
getting out of a lifestyle into which one invests is different than leaving a boat behind like a bit of cast off litter, which many seem to enjoy doing. gets to be tooo much, folks donot have the backbone to finish that which they start.

another reason i have seen for folks leaving the lifestyle into which they invest so much labor and money is spousal unit decides it is not to that individuals liking and gives ultimatum is me or boat. ok so obedient one runs to the hills.

and there is the bunch who cannot get into a lifestyle and only want boat as a status symbol. you KNOW this will not end well for the boat....

and then there is illness death and worse, whereby boat is abandoned for loooong time...

there is day sailing vs cruising... weekending vs years on board...

if only reason to leave a boat behind with no concern other than construction crews being late, then there is no reason to have a boat. 
tomorrow means many things. 
get over your noo yoahk speed life and relax a tad. 
nothing good happens with schedules. 
you know about the cable guy, yes??? you know no one gets anywhere on your watch clock. not on land not in water.

why should stuff change just because you are in a hurry and have a boat. queue up like the rest of us. pretend the contractor is larry the cable guy coming to hook up your cable tv.....

or get a horse and raise baby horses. mebbe you will win the kentucky derby....


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

Most of the quitters that I see are just getting too old.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

too old
too sick
too broke
too lazy
too wrapped up in something else


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

First, Avoid the spring and early summer rush, if I have to haul the boat I show up in January or February when they greet me at the boatyard with hugs, kisses and a cup of coffee.
Second, Your not using the right contractors.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

geez, Zeehag, that's pretty judgmental. Although I do agree with you that frustration with bad contractors is not likely a common primary reason why someone might want to give up boating, I can see how it might be one of the straws that breaks the camel's back. As much as I love sailing (and I really do love it), I've had thoughts of selling my boat. There have been times where I've had other things going on, other responsibilities that have so interfered with sailing that I questioned whether keeping the boat was worth the expenses and the time. It never got to the point where I sold my boat, but I did think about it. Frankly, if my boat and the costs to keep the boat were more, or if the boat was less conveniently located, or if I couldn't handle the boat on my own, I probably would have sold the boat years ago. And I'm not too old too sick, too lazy or any of those other things you mentioned. Those of you who cruise full time do not live in the same world as the other 99% of us; don't judge us by your standards.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I can't tell you why _other_ people get out of boating. The people I hang out with are either current boaters, or were never boaters.

I've always said _we_ (my spouse and I) will get out of cruising when:


it stops being a fun lifestyle, or 
we run out of money, or 
we find something better to do.

I suppose age and possibly health will also factor in at some point - so far, so good.

BS contractors are just part of the life&#8230; luckily I'm way too poor to be able to afford to hire many people


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## Damon Gannon (Mar 3, 2017)

I don't feel like the rate of "retirement" from sailing has increased. There have always been people who have gotten out of sailing, for a variety of reasons (age, declining health, competing interests, other responsibilities, finances, etc.). 

What has changed is that far fewer people are getting into sailing in the first place.


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## basssears (Nov 8, 2010)

capttb said:


> First, Avoid the spring and early summer rush, if I have to haul the boat I show up in January or February when they greet me at the boatyard with hugs, kisses and a cup of coffee.


Oddly I had the opposite experience this last year. Went to the yard about very off season work, thinking I would be welcomed with open arms, instead I was presented with a WAAYY over the top proposal to basically fill their coffers during the slow season. I basically walked away, got back in touch with them in April and they were getting slammed, they were only interested in what I wanted done (didn't try to add anything this time) and then wanted to get me out of their way and back in the water, perfect by me!



capttb said:


> Second, Your not using the right contractors.


This, however, is definitely true! Tough if you don't have lots of choice though...


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't think I know any one who has gotten out of boating for any reason other than age/health.

However, I know lots of people who have downsized significantly. I think this has to do with either increasing costs, or an underestimation of cost. Cost is both time and money.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The only people I know personally that got out of boating had died. 

I do know of some people who got in over there heads (experience or finances) and gave up within a couple of years of finding they didn't or couldn't use it enough.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

The most apparent reason I see that makes couples get out of boating is when the person in charge blames all his/her errors on the other. For instance, if the helmsperson can't get the boat close enough to the dock that the linehandler can easily (and *safely*) step (*not jump*) off the boat, then that is 100% the helmsperson's fault, *not* the line handler's, and the helmsperson has no right to yell at or belittle the other.
I see this all the time. It is *ugly* and unpleasant to watch.
I see this in day sailors, cruisers and bareboaters all the time and view it as a death knell of their boating experience and sometimes their relationship.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

capta said:


> The most apparent reason I see that makes couples get out of boating is when the person in charge blames all his/her errors on the other. For instance, if the helmsperson can't get the boat close enough to the dock that the linehandler can easily (and *safely*) step (*not jump*) off the boat, then that is 100% the helmsperson's fault, *not* the line handler's, and the helmsperson has no right to yell at or belittle the other.
> I see this all the time. It is *ugly* and unpleasant to watch.
> I see this in day sailors, cruisers and bareboaters all the time and view it as a death knell of their boating experience and sometimes their relationship.


I recently observed this with close friends. Except they didn't get out of boating, they wound up with his and hers kayaks, a solution they both seem happy with.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Many reasons but I've known several people that got into sailboats,... and out of sailboats. I think it's often because they got into sailing the wrong way, or for the wrong reasons. 

Some got in because friends or relatives were sailors. Some got in because of the sailing forum (ex magazine driven) fueled, 'live the cruising dream' lure. "I'm going to buy a boat and sail away". 

A few get in because of the beauty of sail and the sailing lifestyle that the media portrays. Ralph Lauren, LL Bean, billowing white sails in magazines and online sell more than just shirts. 

Most of the sailors I know that stay in the sport until the can't physically do it (you can 'sail' cheaply), got into sailing because they fell in love, with sailing. 

A lot of us would agree with what EB White said about sailing, "“With me, I cannot not sail.” Absolutely.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

People who are into "boating" are hobbyists.

I am not into boating... But sailing and Shiva are very much a part of my identity and my life(style). Of course to have the boat I need a few things... money to care for and store the boat.... and health, strength and stamina to use and do the maintenance on the boat.

When I can't afford it, I will have to let her go... and if I can't operate the boat and maintain her I will be unable to fulfill my obligations and also will have to let the boat go to a new owner.

One doesn't have to be tough and young and daring to operate a boat... one doesn't need a lot of money if the boat is in good repair and has no liens.

But the time will come when one has to let it go... old age is like that.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

arcb said:


> i recently observed this with close friends. Except they didn't get out of boating, they wound up with his and hers kayaks, a solution they both seem happy with.


lol


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capta said:


> ......For instance, if the helmsperson can't get the boat close enough to the dock that the linehandler can easily (and *safely*) step (*not jump*) off the boat,.......


I will go you one better. I firmly believe no one should ever get off a boat, until at least one line is secure to the dock and the boat is being held alongside, either by wind or power.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

When I was a young boy my grandfather just left his boat in storage at the marina and never ever went back. I couldn't understand why. It seemed to me at the time, completely and utterly inexplicable. 

Now that I am the age he was then, I understand perfectly all the reasons.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> I will go you one better. I firmly believe no one should ever get off a boat, until at least one line is secure to the dock and the boat is being held alongside, either by wind or power.


For something like 50 years I have been attempting to learn how to lasso cleats and pilings w/o much success. I guess you have mastered that. lol


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capta said:


> For something like 50 years I have been attempting to learn how to lasso cleats and pilings w/o much success. I guess you have mastered that. lol


Buy me a beer and I'll be happy to show you. 

One hint, you never try to lasso. You essentially throw the whole bloody thing past anything you want to catch and when you pull it back, you virtually have to catch it. Making two separate coils of line is part of the trick too. Maybe I'll look to see if someone made a vid in a few mins, but I would rather earn the beer.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Buy me a beer and I'll be happy to show you.
> 
> One hint, you never try to lasso. You essentially throw the whole bloody thing past anything you want to catch and when you pull it back, you virtually have to catch it. Making two separate coils of line is part of the trick too. Maybe I'll look to see if someone made a vid in a few mins, but I would rather earn the beer.


Hey, the beer is yours at any rate, when you get down this way.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Another thought came to mind. I have known several people that end up between boats. Some for a short while, others longer. I suppose that's getting out temporarily. More often than not, they want something newer, bigger, etc. and don't want to get stuck with their old boat. In another circumstance, our friends moved from the East coast to the West Coast and sold, rather than transport. It's been 2 years and they haven't found what they want to replace it with yet.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Fellow on a nearby mooring sold his 1970's Cat last year. Wife stopped sailing and he decided he was getting to old. Still was going to keep the dingy though.
Another fellow spent twenty years building his boat. Had it in the water for a few seasons then came down with Parkinson's. Boat is now for sale.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Think it’s getting harder to do. 
Costs have gone up even if you never use yardmonkeys. Insurance, boat specific supplies even if you do a bit of research and never enter a WM or chandlery. Fuel as well. Mooring fees are double or triple what they were as well as slip rental.
I’m documented in a particular state due to their tax structure. If I was a weekend sailor I’d be s out of luck.
Complexity of boats has increased even for off the shelf new boats. Too many black boxes. Too much stimulation. Especially for new sailors.
Like skiing or golf or so many avocations there’s a fairly steep learning curve at the beginning. Some will beat their head against the wall for a few years never getting over the wall to the point it’s a natural activity and drop out.
It can be scary. Had a friend who bought a Hinckley Pilot. Blew a fortune getting it up to speed. On his first significant trip we were caught in a storm. When the boat eventually hit land he put the boat up for sale. No get back on the horse for him. Have heard this is a not uncommon occurrence.
It sits still too much so the maintenance and expense isn’t justified.
I’ve stopped riding and sold the motorcycles. I’ve stopped golfing. To be a reasonable player you should hit balls several times a week. I have a life outside sailing. You need to choose and not be owned by your processions. 
Many of us have groups of friends. Golfing friends, work friends, fishing friends, sailing friends. We collect a few out of each group that stay our friends even when we drop an activity. Still sometimes a particular activity becomes less fun if key friends move away or drop the activity so we drop it as well.
It’s been said there’s a natural progression. Board or kite, go fast daysailor or cat, small auxiliary, progression of two footitis auxiliaries, for some live aboard dream boat, then trawler and finally small fish boat. Think this was more true in the past but is still true.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Thought provoking post OB. It makes me think about the sports i have gotten out of and why.

1) Mountaineering, all types (including snowboarding). Too dangerous. I have a family.
2) Shooting. Just doesnt seem compatible with small kids. I worry about hearing damage and just dont like handling fire arms around kids.
3) Offroading. Safe and family freindly but competes with the exact same money and time resources as sailing. I picked sailing, but I might ow a classic CJ or equivalent again one day given time and money.

Sailing is just such a well rounded sport, its hard to imagine not doing it.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I can think of three reasons why I might give up boating:

Age and/or illness. I'm almost 70 now and things are a bit slower. At some point I won't be able to handle the boat. When that happens I might down-size, or maybe just stop.
Money. A boat uses up a lot of dollars. I might not be able to manage that as well as other responcibilities. I would probably opt for a less expensive boat.
Commitment. A boat takes up a lot of time and energy. I happen to like working on the boat, but at some point it might be too much.

However, today I spent the day working on the boat at the yard. I splash tomorrow. My sons came down this weekend and did the entire bottom, and polished the topsides. I had a friend help put on a new cutlass bearing and I had the prop worked on at a prop shop in Alameda. So I guess I'm still pretty committed to more sailing. Wednesday Nite Races (beer can) tomorrow - I just sail around and watch!! Actually, even with good reasons, I think I'll just stick around for a while. :2 boat:


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

aa3jy said:


> ...dealing with BS contractors that don't live up or follow up or never show up to what they say or what they will do or won't do..is a major reason...


A bunch of thieves !!! irateraft:irateraft:


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

For my wife and I old age is what will eventually end our sailing; but we keep sailing at least in part to stave off old age.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm into sailing - into cruising to be more accurate - for the lifestyle. I'm not a sailor for sailing's sake. I like to sail, but it's the lifestyle that my modest cruising boat allows, which is the real draw.

There are other ways to live my (our) desired life, which is why I say we might stop if/when something better comes around. As it is, we're approx. 1/2 the year on the boat, and 1/2 doing other stuff. The "other stuff" has included travelling across Canada a few times now, as well as a seven-month motorcycle trip around Canada/USA. This pattern has worked well for the last few years, and I expect it will continue like this.

I don't see boating as an _either/or_ kind of thing. I can see spending an upcoming season motorcycling Newfoundland, which likely means not launching the boat at all that year. We've done this before, and we'll do it again. Maybe we'll get a cheap camper van. Maybe more extended canoe tripping is in order &#8230; who knows.

Sailing is great, but it's just a means to an end. It's all just life, after all.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

outbound said:


> I've stopped riding and sold the motorcycles. I've stopped golfing. To be a reasonable player you should hit balls several times a week. I have a life outside sailing. You need to choose and not be owned by your processions.


How true!

I have roadraced motorcycles (on tracks), stopped, too cheap to pay for the tires.

I play golf. Wish I could find more time for it, but _choose_ not to.

I rode dirtbikes. I have 4 or 5 in the shed, haven't ridden them in a year or 2. Same deal, choose to do othe things.

I hope when we retire we will ride motorcycles when home, play golf in all the foreign destinations we hope to see on the sailboat, take up skiing, get some snowmobiles, etc...

I sincerely hope that 'retirement' will make me take the time to do things we want to do, not things we feel obligated to do.

Money should be no object due to the work we are putting in now. I hope for the best and plan for the worst. Wish us luck (good I hope).


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I gave up golf about 6 years ago. Other than seeing friends and being outdoors, I don't think I ever liked the sport itself. It's hard on your body, as it twists and strains in unnatural ways. It's incredibly time consuming. Between driving to the course, changing, warming up, waiting to tee off, it was 5-6 hrs. Add lunch and a few beers, which I enjoyed more, and it was all day. I absolutely never understood guys who would tee-off at 7am, to rush a round and get back home to the wife. Find something you like to do together! Not to mention, golf never relaxed me. If I showed up relaxed, I would play well. If I showed up stressed, it only got worse. 

The boat relaxes me, the moment I arrive in the town the marina is in. An all day sail or project never feels like I wasted time. It will have to be taken from me, I can't see me giving it up.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

sailforlife said:


> A bunch of thieves !!! irateraft:irateraft:


Not so much "Thieves"...I despise BS artists..


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## Attikos (May 26, 2018)

I haven't seen taxes mentioned. Young people, who always have been the ones getting into boating, have less disposable income than former generations due to rising taxation. If you can't afford a boat and can't take the time off paid work to use it, you can't do it.

Sailing in particular, and I suppose boating overall, is declining more from lack of entrants than retirements, it appears to me. I think that's an important cause.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

I can only comment on Florida - it seems the average weekend sailor is gone - the ones in the past that would own a 25, 27 or 30 ft Catalina and would sail once a month maybe take a trip to St Augustine from Jacksonville once a year - just not there anymore - with the hurricanes, and before them the developers they took out a lot of available slips - a lot fewer marinas with higher costs - insurance is more expensive, just having to worry about your boat when a storm comes along - not even June yet and we have had one in Florida, the boaters before who might have grown tired of a 25 footer and wanted to move up to something bigger have just gotten out of the market. I keep my boat at the Green Cove Springs Marina on the St Johns in North Florida - boats from all over the world - but most are not owned by locals - almost none go out daysailing - they are either in dry storage , in a slip and being used as a liveaboard or basically abandoned/neglected for years ( like the Etap 30 next to me). Lots of Canadian owners who head south for the winter and sail down to the Bahamas.

What is growing in popularity - check out the Everglades Challenge - they continue to grow the race - but these boats are all small( can be kept in back yard) , there does seems to be a healthy amount of younger nomads , who want an adventure for a few years ( all documented on Youtube) - but then will probably move on to something else. The younger set does not want to own things - rent the apartment, maybe not have a car - Uber everywhere, possibly charter a sailboat - different outlook. 

If you are in the market for a new sailboat - tough to find a dealer - if you want a new RV - can't swing a dead cat here without hitting a huge dealership - for whatever reason they are selling like hotcakes.


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## JoCoSailor (Dec 7, 2015)

When effort and/or cost becomes greater than the reward of owning a boat and being on the water…like they say there two great days for most boat owners....


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

It surprises me that no one has mentioned time. 

I can think of a couple of people who got out because of time constraints. We all seem to work longer hours and more weekends these days. Add in a kid playing pretty much any sport and your disposable time drops to pretty near zero. 

Once our house is built it will be a huge difference for us not driving an hour and a half to get to the boat - though I will miss being in a marina.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

As for younger people getting into sailing...



Attikos said:


> I haven't seen taxes mentioned. Young people, who always have been the ones getting into boating, have less disposable income than former generations due to rising taxation.


I'll ignore the political troll bait here, but will say I don't think it's taxes but rather student loan debt that puts a crimp in the spending habits of 20 somethings.

I'm just floored when I hear about the student loans that my nieces and nephews have. And we're raising the rates they're paying. 20-30 is when you make financial decisions that will affect you the rest of your life and all that debt really limits what they can do.

Perception is a HUGE problem.

I've had more than one conversation with someone under 30 who couldn't believe you could pick up a day sailor for under $5,000 and keep her with minimal slip fees.

And there are generational differences in how we look at things. The idea of fixing up an old house, an old car or an old boat isn't as appealing to 20-30 year-olds today as it was to my generation; and as someone else said ownership, whether it be a house or a boat isn't as important. It's not right or wrong, just a different perspective on things.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

The _perception_ of having no time. Everyone has the same number of hours in a day. They all make different choices.

I worked inside all day, my boat tugged at its dock while a steady, delicious , 17 mph wind blew all day long. arrrgghh!!


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

mstern said:


> geez, Zeehag, that's pretty judgmental. Although I do agree with you that frustration with bad contractors is not likely a common primary reason why someone might want to give up boating, I can see how it might be one of the straws that breaks the camel's back. As much as I love sailing (and I really do love it), I've had thoughts of selling my boat. There have been times where I've had other things going on, other responsibilities that have so interfered with sailing that I questioned whether keeping the boat was worth the expenses and the time. It never got to the point where I sold my boat, but I did think about it. Frankly, if my boat and the costs to keep the boat were more, or if the boat was less conveniently located, or if I couldn't handle the boat on my own, I probably would have sold the boat years ago. And I'm not too old too sick, too lazy or any of those other things you mentioned. Those of you who cruise full time do not live in the same world as the other 99% of us; don't judge us by your standards.


Isn't it judgmental to call someone judgmental?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

The opposite of the OP is why would / do people STAY with or continue to sail after many years?

Obviously there is no one answer because we are different in so many ways.

And this is one of the interesting things about sailing... it can meet many needs for different people. And it can change and adapt to them over time.

I suspect I am one of the few sailors out there who has had only a single boat and used it continuously since 1985 when I bought the boat new after very very little exposure to sailing and a whole bunch of reading about it (cruising).

My interest in and passion for sailing has changed over time. 

Some of the "things" I love about "my" sailing experience(s) are:

1. I jumped in when I was 38 yrs old. To me it was a learning lab... intense. Almost like when I began studying architecture in college. No other endeavor since college involved the depth and intensity of study and the breath of new knowledge. It felt like I was opening a door into a new and previously unseen universe. How cool is that! My learning about "things sailing" has continued to this day though the intensity has slacked off. I loved the learning aspect of sailing. While some could be intimidated by all the challenges... I found them very inviting and like notches on a belt.

2. Sailing can be and has for been different. At first it was day trips and learn to sail and learn the boat. Sure there were weak end cruises in this period and many friends joined me to share the experience. In the 3rd decade I am older my social circuit much much limited and so sailing is mostly a personal private experience with my wife. We love to get away and be surrounded by nature and spend cosy time in snug anchorages or visit a place like Newport with all its attractions and two or three relaxing (usually) days of sailing to get there. 

3. I have also in mid life decided to take a "sabbatical", get rid of everything, cut the lines and sail south to the Caribbean. This was an incredible immersive experience. But I also realized that I missed "high culture" of NYC and so sailing the tropics forever could and would never be my thing. We love museums, visiting historic treasures, attending ballet and performances of all kinds, eating cuisine from around the world. Shiva has "adapted" to changing needs. I seemed to have picked the right boat for many many reasons... not the least of which is she is easy to short or single hand (I made her that way)... she is comfortable to live aboard. Just the right level of being off the grid/camping out. With all sorts of "power/ mechanical" assists I have no problems as an old codger working the boat. 

4. Sailing Shiva is NOT a physical effort... it is a mental one... and it's easier and easier over time as I become more and more familiar with the boat and the sea and the weather. I have made her easier to sail and for the boat to fit me like a hand in glove. I know the boat so when I was able to draw rather accurate CAD drawings just from"memory". This to me is pretty amazing. Of course I have been through hell on her... experiences I don't need to repeat. But they gave me confidence in the boat and my ability to deal with some very nasty stuff out there. Now we're more fair weather sailors. We can... why not? In the beginning I was sailing in "everything" even when it was snowing! Been there done that.

5. Owning a boat like Shiva and sailing her is a constant stream of problem solving. At first it was the old traditional navigation... but now that's a thing of the past. All through our life together I was faced with maintenance problem solving and learning... installation problem solving... joinery...all manner of mechanical problems... electric system and power management. Boy that has changed over the decades. But Shiva still has her mid 80s solar panels! All of this problem solving keeps one's mind agile.

6. While it's not a lot of physical work... especially if you pay the yard to do the tiring and dirty work... sailing and my boat care is like an isometric exercise program.. bending, stretching, lifting, balancing... It's not a gym, but it is physical exercise. Beats being a PC addict or a TV couch potato. 

7. Our boat is always a change of venue. It's never been closer than an hour's drive and most of life more than 2. I feel a real change from my land based surroundings. WOW is that refreshing and therapeutic. Quiet, usually, surrounding by nature... not city or street noise.. especially motorcycles, who owners love to make their presence know. We're bothered by ducks or swans or other birds and the occasion fish jumping out of the water... and the wind in the rigging. On board we are always in motion... no mater how slight. What a change from the fixity(my word) of living on dirt. How delightful to be constantly in nature's embrace. No slips or marinas for Shiva.... that's not cutting the ties to land enough for me. And no matter how mundane getting to and being onboard has become after 33 years... it always has a bit of adventure feel... even the damn dinghy runs when it's blowing 20.

I really think that nothing compares to sailing and own a cruising boat like Shiva. Not too small and not too big. A perfect fit for my life. How incredibly fortunate I am to have Shiva and sailing... which has defined my life. I am constantly aware of and grateful for this blessing.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I've quit somethings, because of age/risk benefit is not worth it for me. Yea I'm a serial hobbyist...so I've quit:
flying small airplanes, scuba diving (beyond cleaning a prop), surfing, and skiing. I still do triathlons, so this is not about being physically able, it's more about risk/reward. An accident in the above activities can become very limiting in your 6th decade of life. It ironic that we become more risk adverse when there is less life remaining? Seems wrong, but it's the way most of us are wired.

Sailing...I have a friend who passed recently that was single handing a 42 foot yawl into his 90's. I hope to follow in his footsteps. 

I agree with other posters, the issue in sailing is not people leaving, it's new people not entering. I was at various meetings for the Volvo race in Newport, "a exciting sailing event that should attract young people?" We all had white hair. All of us.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> The _perception_ of having no time. Everyone has the same number of hours in a day. They all make different choices.


So true &#8230; since we've headed off on the cruising life I've had many friends lament how they wish they could do what we're doing. I'm never quite sure how to respond &#8230; all of them _could_ go cruising *IF* they made different choices. But they are too tied to the hamster wheel that our societies create for all of us.

This is why glossy sailing magazines, and now fancy vlogs, do so well. Lots of people have the dream, but a relatively few have the actual desire to make the necessary choices.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> So true &#8230; since we've headed off on the cruising life I've had many friends lament how they wish they could do what we're doing. I'm never quite sure how to respond &#8230; all of them _could_ go cruising *IF* they made different choices. But they are too tied to the hamster wheel that our societies create for all of us.
> 
> This is why glossy sailing magazines, and now fancy vlogs, do so well. Lots of people have the dream, but a relatively few have the actual desire to make the necessary choices.


A clever person literally PLANS his life, his career, his family choices.

I chose to be an architect because I knew I could work corporate or be a sole proprietor... and work from home. I could as I do now outsource my expertise to other architects and firms... and I largely work at a desk at home and now a computer with a web connection. I work on my boat if I want / have to. And I can work any time of the day and where what I want or nothing. How cool is that? I do still have the occasional meeting and have to appear professional of course.

I did not have children as a younger man. Now I married to a lovely woman who has 2 grown children and 2 fabulous little grand daughters that we spoil of course.

My active sports life ended in high school. College was too much work and so I had less and less time for sports. Baseball was out of the question as was football. I did play some tennis and golfed a few times. Golf is only appealing to be out in nature.

I also lost complete interest in spectator sports. If you don't follow the games all look the same. I don't spend time on a bar stool watching sports nor a couch. Look at all the time this has created to do other things!

I didn't raise children, I don't watch sports on TV... I don't play sports. I traveled, and attended arts and performances... and of course the boat thing... [plenty of sailing and maintenance and "projects" How cool is that! Of course the wifey hasn't retired yet so what we do will no longer be constrained by her 9-5 gig. That promises to be very cool too!

Now I am concerned with lightening up... getting rid of all the things beautiful and not so, useful and useless that I have acquired which I drag through life. This is like what I did when I sailed off at 44 yrs... everything I owned except some tools. machinery and art was aboard my boat. How cool was that? Gotta lighten up for the next phase.

Of course I am not a rich man with a portfolio. I have no heirs, except wife. She gets the art and the boat. I made enough money to live the life I wanted... mostly living from check to check.. enough to buy my boat and all the upgrades and travel and so on. I don't need much. My hourly rate is such that I don't need to work a lot to have the cash we need. Of course I was lucky to have excellent health and the wifey's fabulous health insurance.

I was lucky... but I also made the choices to live the life I wanted.

No regrets.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

MikeOReilly said:


> all of them _could_ go cruising *IF* they made different choices. But they are too tied to the hamster wheel that our societies create for all of us.


Maybe what some of them mean to say is, we wish we could go cruising but we also really do love this life we've made for ourselves and we wouldn't give it up for anything. What may look to you like being tied to a hamster wheel, may actually be a meaningful, fulfilling and enjoyable life.

I would guess that for every person who has no regrets about giving up a traditional land-based home/family life to go cruising during their middle age years, there's another who wishes they could go back and do things differently. Maybe they'll never admit it, but I have to think that finding yourself at a later stage in life, when health issues inevitably will occur, financially broke, no home, and perhaps a lack of meaningful connection to family and a community, would be very challenging.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Sailing is an outdoor physical activity which means the younguns would need to get off the couch taking their eyes off the Playstation or XBox and go outside to participate in it so a Sailing Center has to do something to court them away from those couch potato activities. 

Go to a Sailing Center today and many times you'll see more emphasis being put on the Bar and Food Services than on Sailing. One of our board members commented just last week, he heard people who came for drinks at another Sailing Center complaining that "Something has to be done about getting rid of all those boats limiting parking" while he'd love to have seen it full of kids with their prams/lasers/beach cats being joined in a sail or dropped off by their parents along with bike racks full of bicycles. If you want to sit at a bar then there are usually plenty of those around to hang out at so don't turn a Sailing Center into a bar and lounge taking away the emphasis from Sailing and especially the Youth Programs. Also include wind surfing, paddle boarding and similar so those kids will get tempted to branch out into Sailing too.

Here School is out so its the start of Summer Sailing Camp and there's even a special needs camp for Autistic Children (works out very well for the Autistic).

If Adults do not provide activities to get Youths involved in Sailing then yes there will not be as many New Sailors to fill the void as older folks drop off due to financial or physical issues or loss of interest.

Physical issues do not have to end day sailing or racing either as there are self righting heavily ballasted handicapped boats and lifts to get even paraplegics or the elderly with difficulty walking involved in Dingy Racing and Regatta's. Some Sailing Centers have these boats and a dock specially set up to handle them available to members so even if your disabled or elderly and on a fixed income its affordable.

Sailing does not have to mean full time cruising/living aboard and $100,000 a year budgets either. We have many retired $400 a year members who sail small beach/shoal draft vessels almost daily and after years have not run out of places to explore and visit. Some even prefer to just race the kids in the Inter-coastal and never travel out of sight from the Center.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

caberg said:


> Maybe what some of them mean to say is, we wish we could go cruising but we also really do love this life we've made for ourselves and we wouldn't give it up for anything. What may look to you like being tied to a hamster wheel, may actually be a meaningful, fulfilling and enjoyable life.
> 
> I would guess that for every person who has no regrets about giving up a traditional land-based home/family life to go cruising during their middle age years, there's another who wishes they could go back and do things differently. Maybe they'll never admit it, but I have to think that finding yourself at a later stage in life, when health issues inevitably will occur, financially broke, no home, and perhaps a lack of meaningful connection to family and a community, would be very challenging.


I don't want to own a house of an apartment. Paying rent is fine. I know and wifey tells me all the time paying rent is throwing money away... pay a mortgage! She's correct of course. But renting gives one freedom... easier to move... no brokers, and closings and such. You find you don't like the neighborhood... when the lease is up move to one you like.

I would raise kids in a house with a yard...I didn't raise kids. I lived in a fabulous loft in NYC for 20 years and some OK apartments after returning from my sailing journey. I've even lived aboard for a winter tied to docks YUCK YUCK.

I am 20 minutes drive to Lincoln Center and 30 to SoHo. I can get to Shiva in a hr. The train to GCS is a ten minute walk and a 22 minute train ride! We have all the little shops we need in one or two blocks. We drive 10 minutes to fabulous supermarkets or malls. Not bad.

I don't want to re roof, paint the siding, change the storms and screens, shovel the snow, rake the leaves, cut the grass... or pay the plumber when there is a problem.

Renting is freedom. You pay a price for it. It's not a bad deal... f you find the right place at a decent price and that's getting harder to do.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

SanderO said:


> A clever person literally PLANS his life, his career, his family choices.


And many, or most people plan their life and live it to AVOID any adventure, or risk. I suppose that is evolution. That's how our distant ancestors survived.

Still, I shake my head when I see the girl who would hop on the back of my motorcycle for a week long adventure, who once tent camped in grizzly country hiking through the Rocky Mountains --- now 30 years later glued to her phone and couch, happy to weed the garden, or binge watch stupid TV shows...or sit in a restaurant.. too afraid..... anything, anything but adventure.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> A clever person literally PLANS his life, his career, his family choices&#8230;.
> 
> I was lucky... but I also made the choices to live the life I wanted.


My life hasn't really been planned out, but I have made choices and decisions along the way that preference personal freedom over being tied down or limited. No kids, no debt, few obligations to anyone outside of my spouse and immediate family. My so-called career (a writer-for-hire) has allowed me the freedom to work from almost anywhere. It has also ensured I will never be financially rich, which is both negative and positive when it comes to freedom.



caberg said:


> Maybe what some of them mean to say is, we wish we could go cruising but we also really do love this life we've made for ourselves and we wouldn't give it up for anything. What may look to you like being tied to a hamster wheel, may actually be a meaningful, fulfilling and enjoyable life.


I didn't say it wasn't a meaningful life - meaning is created by each of us. If a more conventional life (for lack of a better term) is what brings someone meaning, then that is what they should do. What I am sharing - what I observe - is that _some_ of these people _say_ they want a different life - my life - but they seem unwilling to make the choices to have it happen. So I suspect you're correct, they don't really want this cruising life. And that's just fine.



caberg said:


> I would guess that for every person who has no regrets about giving up a traditional land-based home/family life to go cruising during their middle age years, there's another who wishes they could go back and do things differently. Maybe they'll never admit it, but I have to think that finding yourself at a later stage in life, when health issues inevitably will occur, financially broke, no home, and perhaps a lack of meaningful connection to family and a community, would be very challenging.


I don't doubt there is the whole spectrum of life satisfaction-regret in all lifestyles. And time changes everything. I may live to regret the choices I make today, or I may not. I don't find that speculating about my future-me gets my current-me very far. That's not to say I behave recklessly or without regard for the future. But I certainly preference the now over the future.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> ......I know and wifey tells me all the time paying rent is throwing money away... pay a mortgage! She's correct of course......


Actually, there have been studies that show renting to be the better financial choice for most. We created this "ownership" culture, because so many of our ancestors immigrated from places that wasn't an option.

While a mortgage payments seems smarter than throwing rent away, it's never that direct a comparison. It's not enough to compare what one paid for a house to what one sold it for. Land and School taxes over decades can't be ignored. But the biggest is all the capital improvement that will be necessary over the long term that do not increase the value of the home. Some are just replacing things that have limited lifespans. However, the real killer is redecorating, remodeling or the like. When you compare what the average renter pays, all in, and compare it to the real cash on cash value of a home, the renter often wins.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Actually, there have been studies that show renting to be the better financial choice for most. We created this "ownership" culture, because so many of our ancestors immigrated from places that wasn't an option.
> 
> While a mortgage payments seems smarter than throwing rent away, it's never that direct a comparison. It's not enough to compare what one paid for a house to what one sold it for. Land and School taxes over decades can't be ignored. But the biggest is all the capital improvement that will be necessary over the long term that do not increase the value of the home. Some are just replacing things that have limited lifespans. However, the real killer is redecorating, remodeling or the like. When you compare what the average renter pays, all in, and compare it to the real cash on cash value of a home, the renter often wins.


This is all correct. I haven't rented since 1984, and have owned (OK, co-owned with bank) four houses since then, and the one we currently own is paid off. My taxes are over $7K a year, more than twice what any rent I ever paid was. Having said that, owning a house can have the same intangible values as owning a boat, while being nowhere near as bad an investment (typically). The REAL benefit to home ownership is that it's sort of a forced savings account for those of us who might not have the discipline to put money away for the future on a steady basis. As equity builds up.. well, that's something you can turn into money. We don't live in a mansion or high-end home by any stretch, but we own it and I could probably sell it quickly for $200K-$250K. That's a nice little savings account built up over the years. You'd have to remember to do that as a renter.

But, yes, Minnewaska is 100% correct; all else being equal, you can probably spend less money renting over the long haul than on buying, paying taxes, maintainence, mortgage interest, etc., a home. The extra money spent on a home purchase buys you rights you don't have as a tennant, a mortgage interest tax deduction, and the aforementioned "forced savings account."

In hindsight, I'd probably do it all over again the way I did it. Lost money on one house, made enough of a slight profit on the sale of the other two to have lived in it for less than it would have cost us to rent... barely.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

bblument said:


> But, yes, Minnewaska is 100% correct; all else being equal, you can probably spend less money renting over the long haul than on buying, paying taxes, maintainence, mortgage interest, etc., a home. The extra money spent on a home purchase buys you rights you don't have as a tennant, a mortgage interest tax deduction, and the aforementioned "forced savings account."
> 
> In hindsight, I'd probably do it all over again the way I did it. Lost money on one house, made enough of a slight profit on the sale of the other two to have lived in it for less than it would have cost us to rent... barely.


In the Hudson Valley, a basic two bedroom apt is $1500/ month. My friend was renting a beautiful 3 bedroom for $2200 month. Dirty little basement hovels are $1100/ month. These are all not including utilities. My mortgage and taxes are around $1500/ month. Its probably $500/ month in maintenance on the house.

On the whole in my area I find it is probably more about how you want to live. If my dog chews the carpet , if I play my music loud, or break something... nobody is throwing me ( OR MY DOG) out. As an investment, its not great. This is our second, bigger house and its just holding its own. Our starter house made us $70k profit over 7 years.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

JimMcGee said:


> Perception is a HUGE problem.
> 
> I've had more than one conversation with someone under 30 who couldn't believe you could pick up a day sailor for under $5,000 and keep her with minimal slip fees.


I think this hits the nail on the head. I'm not young (53) but I always though that you had to be Thurston Howell rich to own a 'yacht'. I figured the only yachts I could ever afford were radio controlled model yachts until a fellow model boat sailor came by trying to sell his big boat on which he had crossed the Atlantic for $30k. This really opened my eyes to the possibilities of becoming a sailor/cruiser.

-Hugh


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> Actually, there have been studies that show renting to be the better financial choice for most. We created this "ownership" culture, because so many of our ancestors immigrated from places that wasn't an option.
> 
> While a mortgage payments seems smarter than throwing rent away, it's never that direct a comparison. It's not enough to compare what one paid for a house to what one sold it for. Land and School taxes over decades can't be ignored. But the biggest is all the capital improvement that will be necessary over the long term that do not increase the value of the home. Some are just replacing things that have limited lifespans. However, the real killer is redecorating, remodeling or the like. When you compare what the average renter pays, all in, and compare it to the real cash on cash value of a home, the renter often wins.


As in all things one has to choose wisely. I bought when property was low and chose a modest home with a garage in a non-evacuation zone (lower insurance costs) that would still be affordable when I retire. My taxes are limited by my homestead exemptions "Save Our Homes Cap" and are currently $400 a year, insurance very affordable and maintenance low. Yes I will be paying a few hundred for paint every ten years since I will do it myself, water heaters I install myself every 15 years which still are less than $500 and there will be a roofing job every 25/30 years for $3,000 to $5,000 however when I die my kids instead of having to clean out an apartment (and pay the rent until they do) will get around $100,000 each from the sale of the house or they can move back in full time and save their rent money. An apartment would cost me a bit more so there won't be any more savings available for them to inherit from renting. Not having a 3,000 to 5,000 sq ft mansion but rather a modest sub 1,500 sq ft home is more economical than an 800 sq ft apartment and I have space to store my boat on the property saving monthly storage yard fees too plus a full workshop. I can even move within the same county to a home up to 15% greater in value than the one I currently own and still maintain my "Save Our Homes Cap".

This new generation of helpless kids who freak out if they get a blister are pitiful not being able to do the maintenance that my Father, Brothers, Uncles and I took for granted as part and parcel with home ownership.

In an apartment one usually pays for their own appliances, decorating/redecorating, insurance, utilities (same as when you own) and you do not get anything more than a few months security deposit back when you move out even after paying rent for a lifetime. Haven't heard of a renter getting $200,000 to $300,000 back from a landlord when they moved out unless it was some really posh $150,000 a month apartment. Never met a renter able to put an extra $200,000 to $300,000 in the bank from what they saved by renting either.

Even choice of automobiles can make or break you. People look at my classic 124 Spider and think wealthy however I do my own repairs and most parts are very cheap compared to newer cars. My wife's front wheel drive Chevy had a clutch slave cylinder fail and replacing that, since I am not equipped to remove a transaxle to get to the cylinder around the clutch shaft inside the bell housing, cost $1,000 however when the clutch cable failed on the Spider it was $17.99 for the part which I could easily replace myself in less time than it took to deal with dropping off and picking my wife's car at the mechanics. I now factor in cost of maintenance when looking at vehicles. Front wheel drive by nature many times means adding $500 to $800 to what would have been a sub $200 repair on a rear wheel drive car such as a replacing a clutch cable or an external slave cylinder.

We can many times choose to make things affordable by being reasonable or can make things very much well out of reach by being too lofty in our thinking.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

JimMcGee said:


> As for younger people getting into sailing...
> 
> Perception is a HUGE problem.
> 
> ...


Exactly - Plenty of Day Sailors for $2,000 or less that can be towed with a compact car and beach launched in less than 10 minutes once you have the procedure set in your mind. My 15' picnic boat all done and told cost me less than $2,000 including re-rigging, safety gear and bringing all the maintenance up to date. 2hp is all it needs for a motor if I decide I need one and I will still be below the $2,000 mark if I do go that route.

15' meets city code allowing it to be stored in the driveway if I want it ready for quick access instead of in the back yard and I am only 10 minutes from the water and still almost 100' above sea level. No slip fees, no boat ramps, no high maintenance costs or frightfully high insurances and less than 30 minutes from pulling out from the house to being on the water. Just perfect for this disabled senior citizen.

Right now I could pick up several boats for $2,000 or less that are in sailing condition: CScow 20, Buccaneer 18, Watkins 17' Day Sailor, Aqua Cat 16, Catalina 22, Renken Tangerine 18, Compac 16, Hobie Cat Turbo 14, SUNBIRD 17 (bigger cabin than Oday Daysailor 17), Rhodes 19, WindMill 16 (classic wooden hull that looks new), Tanzer Overnighter 16, Classic Mahogany Thistle 17.

Over $2,000 and under $5,000 there is also a selection of larger boats with full cabins with small galley's that are in sailing condition.


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## dinosdad (Nov 19, 2010)

Boy does this topic hit home... I've been grappling with not so much getting out of boating but rather possibly going to power. This past winter I stored up the Connecticut river in Portland being that it would be a 30 minute drive from home to the boatyard as opposed to about 1 1/2 hours to noank where I moor and usually haul. I really enjoyed the ride up the river and absolutely fell in love with the short drive to the boatyard. As a casual sailor compared to most here , I'm one of those sunny warm weekend boating types .I've done the rainy day on the boat thing ...I'd rather be fiddling around with a project in the barn . While I know many travel far longer to get to their boat , a half hour drive is a ideal number for me , presently if we end up with only one nice day on a weekend it's a 50/50 if I'll go or not , with a 30 minute drive , I'll go every time . Upriver a powerboat makes more sense as it's a trek from there to open water to sail , ya fuel bills are high , but that's why I go to work . If I was unwilling to consider making the switch to power I'd probably leave boating due to the distance to the boat , so in the future maybe next year, if you see a powerboat ease off the throttles and slowly ghost past you without waking you .... wave, it might be me remembering how it was to be the sailboat !


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Dino, travel distance was my #1 reason for selling my keel boat. Same deal, I was 90 minutes to my boat and the sailing still kind of sucked.

I considered a nice little pontoon house boat with a sailing dinghy on davits, until we happened across our current little sailboat, which we actually motor quite a bit, because we too are on a river. We motored 270 miles last season.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

dinosdad said:


> Boy does this topic hit home... I've been grappling with not so much getting out of boating but rather possibly going to power.


We've made the decision to pick up a small power boat but we're keeping the sailboat.

Living on the water now changed the way I look at a lot of things. During tourist season it can be easier to dock and dine rather than drive and park. And I want something for running out to the sandbar for weekend raft ups.

I re-rigged the dingy with an extra battery for the electric outboard and it's fine for put-putting around. But an 18-20 footer with an outboard is definitely in our future.

I'm even thinking about taking up fishing


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Sal Paradise said:


> On the whole in my area I find it is probably more about how you want to live.


Sal you summed it up perfectly for me. I've lived in a single family home my whole life - the same one for the past 30 years, and the one I grew up in before that.

Right now we're living in a condo while we're waiting for our house to be built and it's driving me crazy.

Once our house is built I hope to spend the rest of my days there.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

SeaStar58 said:


> This new generation of helpless kids who freak out if they get a blister are pitiful not being able to do the maintenance that my Father, Brothers, Uncles and I took for granted as part and parcel with home ownership.


SeaStar don't be so hard on today's kids. They grew up in a different world.

I towed my first car out of a corn field with my buddy's truck and fixed it up in my father's driveway. But that old Dodge was a very different beast than today's cars.

There was a time when I thought nothing of pulling a motor and trans. But I've never turned a wrench on my Acura. It doesn't make sense to.

And that's the world these kids grew up in. There's little beyond basic auto maintenance they can do without buying diagnostic gear. The alarm clock, the cell phone, they're all disposable and they're not something you can open up and tinker with. So their culture doesn't value those skills the way we did.

Finding out they can take something like a sailboat and fix it up; I think that's a pleasant surprise for some of them.

And by the way, if you're going to be pissed at the younger generation for not having "skills" look in the mirror. It means our generation didn't teach them 

I think the real loss is that those of us who grew up fixing things grew up with the sense that we could tackle anything. And that really is a different way of looking at things.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

zeehag said:


> too old
> too sick
> too broke (downsizing is another alternative)
> too lazy (too much work for too little reward)
> ...


All good reasons. Why do something that isn't fun anymore?

(No, I'm not getting out.)


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## KayakerChuck (May 4, 2017)

I'm a marine contractor in Michigan. 35 years of building custom canvas. I try to be very blunt with my customers. "I will do my best, but I don't control the weather, when I actually get shipments, and many other things". If people will agree to put their boat inside ($$$, none of it to me) while I do my work, I can give a much more firm finish date. About 1 person every 5 years will do this. I try very hard to keep customers updated when things go south. The weather here was awful this spring. 

I'm behind with my work, as are all my local competitors. Most are booking September at this point, and running about 3 weeks behind expected delivery dates. I plan on being able to work outside about 3 days/week in April. There were only a few days in the month that didn't have rain & or wind. I stopped accepting retail work at all, except for a very few, long time, big dollar, customers. I don't have time to deal with individual customers. I'm unable to find employees who are willing/able to do high quality, low error work. Wage is not a problem. I have paid skilled specialists as much as $200/hr.

I basically have about 8 months to earn a 12 month income. I have had 1 day off this year, and 2 half days. Mostly I work 10 hour days. When my back log is worked off, I do not plan to take more retail work. Potential customers regularly berate me for not accepting their job, tell me I'm too expensive, or too booked. I laugh, and add them to my blacklist.

I wish more contractors were just BLUNT with their customers. Managing expectations is the biggest and most important part of the job. Many do not get it right.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

JimMcGee said:


> SeaStar don't be so hard on today's kids. They grew up in a different world.
> 
> I towed my first car out of a corn field with my buddy's truck and fixed it up in my father's driveway. But that old Dodge was a very different beast than today's cars.
> 
> ...


My daughters were taught and learned very well. The youngest looks now for items people discard or donate to hospice that she can repair cheaply and pay forward to her friends to help them past their state of helplessness while the eldest has started making it a habit of borrowing my old tools when doing her own repairs and asking to keep some of them since she likes them better than the new ones. My youngest daughter has been collecting broken sewing machines, fixing them herself and then using them to teach other youths how to sew making the machines available to her students to keep afterwards. The youngest also goes out to do Disaster Relief work sometimes with a US First Responder Team. My Nieces and Nephews too have learned and do quite well also as somewhat do the Boys the Nieces married however while one of the Lads is more like a sponge learning the other though he tries is just out of his depth about many simple repairs and not doing as well.

I have taught and continue to teach my own and actively do volunteer work to help teach youths today despite my age and disability that requires a cane to get about. I believe in also being part of the cure and not just complaining about it. Youths who see an elderly man ride up on a motorcycle, unfold his cane and then help them do drywall, framing, welding, electrical work, plumbing, pipe fitting, auto repairs, boat repairs, painting, woodworking, finish carpentry, repair musical instruments, write computer software, etc, etc are many times inspired to give it a try and find it very possible to do these things themselves along with find it extremely satisfying afterwards. I understand that naysayers may be irritated by this however if I can inspire even a few its all worth it.

There are still systems on newer cars that one can repair themselves including brakes, exhausts, struts/shocks, control arms, wheel bearings, ball joints, steering pumps, steering racks, starters, alternators, window regulators, door hardware, relays, lift rods, wiper motors/linkages, heater cores, AC cores, water pumps, radiators, hoses, belts, clutches, throttle bodies, fuel pumps, fuel rails, oil pumps, lifters, rocker arms, piston rings, head gaskets, main/rod bearings and such plus the computers after investing what is the equivalent of a few hours labor costs in diagnostic equipment are discernible. What I do find challenging is all the extra work now required to remove so much of the front suspension and such to deal with formerly simple repairs where front wheel drive is concerned along with how much that drives costs up.

As I mentioned already the horrific costs involved with the newer style hydraulic clutch systems compared to dealing with a many times less than $20 clutch cable do not make sense to me either. Added complexity and cost to what... replace adjusting the clutch linkage and spending 10/15 minutes doing that with a now $1,000 repair. A self adjusting mechanism in the clutch pedal with a mechanical system does similar to the hydraulic at much lower overall cost. When the new style hydraulic slave fails it many/most times leaks brake fluid on the clutch which usually has 40,000 +/- miles left on it forcing early replacement of that too because its now saturated with brake fluid.

My Father was born in 1906 in the US of Italian parents visiting the country making him a US citizen, lived in Italy while his Father was seeking medical care for my Grandmother (Boston Hospitals could not help her) who died there as WWI broke out and worked at a young age while going to school to help my Grandfather support the family along with assisted in raising his younger brothers while stuck there during the war. He paid his steamship passage back to the US when the war ended working his way through High School and MIT getting his Masters Degree in Engineering during the Depression also making a number of Atlantic Steam Ship Crossings to sponsor his family in Italy's return to the US and then as a Widower with no dependents served as a Pacific Island Raider during WWII so I received a very different perspective on things compared to most others my age who's parents were both born 20 to 34 years later.

Yes sometimes its hard to get past all the self defeating attitudes some folks have today about what can't be done. Perhaps it was that lack of the knowledge that it can't be done that gave many of us an edge in finding solutions to get the impossible done in the past.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

SeaStar58 said:


> . What I do find challenging is all the extra work now required to remove so much of the front suspension and such to deal with formerly simple repairs where front wheel drive is concerned along with how much that drives costs up.
> 
> As I mentioned already the horrific costs involved with the newer style hydraulic clutch systems compared to dealing with a many times less than $20 clutch cable do not make sense to me either. Added complexity and cost to what... replace adjusting the clutch linkage and spending 10/15 minutes doing that with a now $1,000 repair. A self adjusting mechanism in the clutch pedal with a mechanical system does similar to the hydraulic at much lower overall cost. When the new style hydraulic slave fails it many/most times leaks brake fluid on the clutch which usually has 40,000 +/- miles left on it forcing early replacement of that too because its now saturated with brake fluid.
> 
> .


I agree with the difficulty of the FWD cars but there are advantages in the car design. As for hydraulic clutches - what make and model is it that dumps fluid on the clutch? I assure you that not all hydraulic clutches do this. Some have the piston outside and they really are a good system and last a loooong time.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

In or Out, thoughts on both.
In, I do it because I know how. Many could easily afford it but they don't know how so they will not try/do it.
I will do it as long as its affordable sometimes I think I am adding to my working years so I can sail. Of course unless I forget how.

Out, Same list. Plus simple "aging out" sooner or later it happens to everyone. 
Many drift to Power, Trawlers are popular in our Marina and most all are former Sailors. They affectionately refer to themselves as "Trawler Trash" even made a sign for their dock.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

They make promises and then sit on their hands and run the clock!!! parasites.....


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I’m writing this from chappy just off MV. I’m with 10 other guys. Yesterday was the flyfish striper tournament. Living in tents. Eat, fish, sleep. Repeat 4 times a day. Tournament was from 7pm to 2am. Cold windy. A fish every 100 casts. 
These people are NUTs. As bad as blue water cruisers. But they are passionate. They see beauty few others see. They are a group apart with their own lingo requiring translation to outsiders. Very much comparable to sailors. Age of my group is 25 to 72. The 72 y.o. caught the most fish. They live for this tournament and prepare the whole year round. 
People are passionate about about many different things. Sometimes to the exclusion and injury of all else. Passion that intense burns brightly but sometimes for no overt reason the flame goes out. Then they say why in the hell did I piss away time, money, stress my loved ones or wasn’t present enough for them to chase this passion. It makes no sense. And they leave.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

From my perspective, most young people want things that go fast, similar to their lifestyles. Neither my son or daughter want's my boat, therefore, when I pass away, my son will likely donate it to some charity for a tax write-off for my wife is she is still alive. 

As for marine contractors, you can't find one in my part of the world that will even return a phone call, let alone provide you with an estimate or God forbid, actually do the work. Consequently, despite my failing health, I have managed to make nearly all the repairs myself, and in a timely manner. Though most of the jobs I think will take an hour usually end up taking an entire day to complete.  Amazing how this works.

At the marina where I keep my boat, there are a couple dozen derelict boats sitting on the hard, some of which have been there for nearly a decade. The vast majority of them are sailboats, most of which left the sails in place when the boats were stored. The sails and sail covers have long since become rags. I saw one that blew off the jack stands when we had the big noreaster roll through, and it appears as if someone cut the keel off to sell for scrap lead. There is a twin keel, welded aluminum boat about 35 feet long sitting on the hard, abandoned. Someone had the hull sand blasted a couple years ago, leaving a shiny metal finish to slowly oxidize in the elements. 

I've had my boat on the market for 2 years, only had two folks interested, but neither of them had any money. Both owned sailboats, one a 17-foot Hobie Cat, while the other had a 22 Catalina. The guy with the Hobie wanted to know if I would take his Hobie in trade. HAH!

All the best,

Gary


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Sometimes my Wife and I talk about the future. 

We lived in the boat part time for a few years before shoving off a couple of years ago. Now we are “cruising” 6 months a year and at our cabin with our small boat about 4 and harassing kids the rest of the time. Staying with our kids is tough, damn TV blaring all the time. 

We are not sailing, we are cruising or living on the boat. Coming back to Philadelphia is hard on me. I did not like the culture or the noise. I don’t like it, I don’t miss it. No TV for 15 or so years and have even given up radio. 

If I gave up the boat where would I live? Newfoundland is too cold in the winter. I don’t really fit in anywhere. Sometimes I feel like I’ve out lived my era. Going on 68 I’m an anachronism. I’m not of the city anymore. 

At this point I think even my Wife, who really resisted this life style, would be hard pressed to swallow the hook. Maybe live in a small marina, but in the city? That would be difficult. 

But we are cruisers and not sailors. It’s a means to an end, which is to travel but also to live simply and quietly. We are fairly solitary people, but a solid couple. God knows what would happen should one of us fall ill or die. Difficult thoughts. So we just keep on keeping on and pray it lasts yet another season.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> Sometimes my Wife and I talk about the future.
> 
> We lived in the boat part time for a few years before shoving off a couple of years ago. Now we are "cruising" 6 months a year and at our cabin with our small boat about 4 and harassing kids the rest of the time. Staying with our kids is tough, damn TV blaring all the time.
> 
> ...


Wonderful post. I hear you. I am still going between land and all that nonsense and the boat on a mooring. Wifey hasn't retired but we've talked about living full time on the boat in the Islands... she (and I) don't abide winter. No marinas for us... we like swinging in solitude. Of course this means a good dry dink and motor... which we have... but that needs a dock up here in NPT and they are not available at any price. We are forced to pay robbers for their launch service if we continue in NPT.

You should try to slowly cruise down to a warm place where you can live on the hook, or if you like a marina... no dingy issues. Maybe Antigua? Bit expat community of sailors and cruisers so it's not the end of the world. I am sure there are similar places for you.

But as you get old cruising on the boat and caring for it becomes impossible. I don't think many cruisers who have cut their lines think of this. They should. Maybe old salts can find a young strong person to help out. It's a thought.

But as Gary noted... don't expect much from the marine industry... yards, marinas and serves... most are just interested in money... and they all believe that have us over a barrel.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks hpeer/Sander. We (my spouse and I) are on the same spectrum both your posts define. We’re somewhere in between both of you. We left normal land-life a few years ago, and have been cruising since then. Cruising for us has been about 1/2-year on the boat, 1/2-year other stuff. Cruising (for us) is not about going around the world, or indeed going anywhere in particular. It’s about living and exploring the places we wonder to. So far, it has worked out well.

Right now, we’re coming off our 1/2-year “other stuff” period, which (this year) has been house sitting and hanging out with our generous and ever-gracious relative and friends. Just seconds ago my partner was saying how she misses life in Nature. Our life on the boat has us living mostly on our own, away from urban mayhem, usually in a remote anchorage on a remote passage. It’s the life we both cherish.

Age may force us into a different lifestyle. So far, so good, but I already feel the tug of time as I contort and grunt my way to deal with yet another engine problem. Money could become an issue for us. We live on a very meagre income (one small pension and some small magazine work). And while I like sailing and living on a boat, it’s not the only way I could see living a “cruising” lifestyle. So who knows what the future will bring.

I do know that I find the urban world distracting and discombobulating. The stink, the noise, and the constant need to go fast (yet still get nowhere), exhausts me. At this point I have no idea how we’d return to a “normal life” (for lack of a better term). I suspect we never will, but I really don’t know what a cruising life looks like as we get older

Ain’t life fun :captain:


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Mike, do you think you will make it down to the Chesapeake this summer? Sure would like to mix you up a Green Coconut Margaretta. 

In just one more day, the rains should be gone and this old codger will be off on a week-long voyage aboard my sailboat, sailing south on the wide expanses of Chesapeake Bay on a shakedown cruise. The cruise is not so much to determine how the boat will fare, but instead, how this old codger will fare and be able to cope with failing health issues.

While sitting in the office with the space heater running (it's damp, chilly and raining here in Maryland) this song came to mind. While a lot of folks believe I am rich, monetarily, because I own a sailing yacht, the truth of the matter is that I am not rich, by any stretch of the imagination. Now, if I WERE a rich man, the yacht would be much larger, crewed by a bevy of young ladies and I would just relax and sip Margarettas while they did all the work. This kind of inspired my to record this song using my aging S-950 and the Sirtaki style. Here's my rendition of If I Were A Rich Man

All the best,

Gary


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## IDtrucks (Jan 10, 2018)

Well, I’ll count myself and my gal as the weird few youngins working to get even more into sailing. Most aspects of our lives is focused on the goal of liveaboard bluewater cruiser (we’ve got the 22’er to entertain ourselves in the meantime). We’re some years out...but she’s a professional sailor and I’ve been sailing in varied facets for years. We’re currently just on the grind to gain more knowledge and save more money


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Sal Paradise said:


> I agree with the difficulty of the FWD cars but there are advantages in the car design. As for hydraulic clutches - what make and model is it that dumps fluid on the clutch? I assure you that not all hydraulic clutches do this. Some have the piston outside and they really are a good system and last a loooong time.


A number of Ford, Mazda and Chevy/GM models from the Saturn View to even the Ford Ranger/Mazda rear wheel drive pickup trucks use a Concentric Slave Cylinder (CSC). They eliminated the clutch fork on many of them and use a hollowed out cylinder that's part of the throw out bearing bolted or pressed onto the input shaft/front seal of the transmission instead. When the seal on the slave cylinder fails it leaks brake fluid down the throw out bearing right onto the clutch. You have to separate the engine from the transmission to replace the cylinder inside the bell housing and clean up the mess along with repair the collateral damage when they fail.

Here is one that's used on a 2008 Ford Mustang and only costs around $200 for a decent quality one depending on where you buy it:









I won't buy another vehicle with a hydraulic clutch where the slave cylinder (CSC) is inside the bell housing again. The clutch dust, heat combined with the dual forces from extending the cylinder and contacting a rotating clutch pack directly then transferring rotational loading to the cylinder just makes it wear out faster. Plus making them out of plastic in that environment does not lend itself to longevity either.

Really enjoy the simplicity and much lower costs of repairing the old school rear wheel drive standard shift vehicles that don't have all the bells and whistles to fail on them.

Beginning to understand my Father better now that I am seeing how change for the sake of change or increased profits do not work out for the consumer and just increases the cost of living adding waste and generating too much trash to deal with in the bargain.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

From my perspective, part of extending the cruising life is keeping it simple. 

Kerosene cooker, no propane hassles. 
Huge anchor, seldom use a ball or dock. 
Foot pump at galley reduces water use, no water maker
Camp shower in the cockpit is just fine, no water heater
No AC although we do have heat. 
Honda generator, seldom used due to solar and wind. 
GC-2 batteries - cheap and available
We got international health insurance, cheap - $3,000/yr for two. 
No friends, family hates sailing - no fussy visitors. 
Simple electronics. Less to break/maintain. 
No TV/DVD/. Read a lot. 

But then the boat is Steel, lots of painting but dry below. 

I still seem to keep busy, too busy.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hpeer said:


> From my perspective, part of extending the cruising life is keeping it simple. ...


Yup, completely agree. Keep things simple. I focus on systems that are reliable and simple; stuff that either rarely breaks down, or that I can maintain and fix.



travlin-easy said:


> Mike, do you think you will make it down to the Chesapeake this summer? Sure would like to mix you up a Green Coconut Margaretta.
> 
> In just one more day, the rains should be gone and this old codger will be off on a week-long voyage aboard my sailboat, sailing south on the wide expanses of Chesapeake Bay on a shakedown cruise. The cruise is not so much to determine how the boat will fare, but instead, how this old codger will fare and be able to cope with failing health issues.
> 
> While sitting in the office with the space heater running (it's damp, chilly and raining here in Maryland) this song came to mind. While a lot of folks believe I am rich, monetarily, because I own a sailing yacht, the truth of the matter is that I am not rich, by any stretch of the imagination. Now, if I WERE a rich man, the yacht would be much larger, crewed by a bevy of young ladies and I would just relax and sip Margarettas while they did all the work. This kind of inspired my to record this song using my aging S-950 and the Sirtaki style. Here's my rendition of If I Were A Rich Man


Not this year Gary, and not the next either. We're lingering in Newfoundland for at least the next three years so we can take time to explore The Rock. After all, who knows when we'll be back. So hang in there buddy. Enjoy the sail. I still expect to raise a pint, or a margarita glass, with you in a few years. Don't you be going anywhere (except sailing, of course ).

Nice Rich Man rendition. I'm hearing a bit of a Latin/Caribbean flare in there.

I am financially poor, but richer than most. I could have chosen to stay in "normal life" and become much wealthier by trading more of my life for more money. But having had a real brush with death early in life, I learned about real wealth when I was still quite young. Life is precious, and all-too fleeting for everyone. This lesson has guided by life ever since.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Pardon me for returning to the topic of this thread, but I recall an individual who abruptly got out of boating over 30 years ago. You might underdstand why when you read the story.

This fellow was the original owner of a new 22’ boat that very early in its life got caught in Hurricane Gloria (1985). His boat was in Noank and ended up on top of a masonry pier when it all calmed down in the harbor. (My own 18’ catboat survived unscathed on a 50# mushroom up near Mystic Seaport, where they recorded peak winds of 108 mph.). In any case, this fellow was relatively lucky, since there were about 100 boats in Noank that were totally trashed. Still, there were cracks in the hull (which was still watertight), but the furniture was in a shambles from the radical hull flexure. His inboard diesel was at least still on its mounts. So, he had the boat trucked back to the manufacturer in Massachusetts for a rebuild and was back in the water for the next season.

That next season, however, did him in, or maybe he did himself in, for sailing. We and several other boats had rendezvoused in the salt pond at Block Island, expecting winds no more than the lower 20’s. Unfortunately the winds picked up to 50 during the first night, as pandemonium reigned in the pond—boats dragging down on each other and/or into shallow areas where they ran aground. I can still remember that night when the rigging noise alone prevented sleep—let alone the worry over whether breakaway upwind boats would run aground before reaching us in the shallows. As luck would have it, despite one close call, all of our fleet survived with minimal damage.

The next day, however, saw the winds subside to the 30 kt range, but worse, out of the NW—the direction back to our home ports. Getting back our our luckless fellow sailor, he was determined to head out under these conditions due to some commitment the following day that he could not—or would not—ignore. So he fired up his trusty diesel and motored back to Noank. The 20 miles took 9 hours, with his boat on her beam ends as his BFF spent the journey on her back in the berth, due to a back issue. 

As you might guess, he had had enough of sailing and put the boat up for sail when he finally got ashore. We haven’t seen him since.

In my case, there was no way I would risk deliberately sailiing into 30 kts in open water, so we stayed put, my high school age son and I, but we did have an enjoyable Sunday biking around the island. Still we both had jobs and were not about to get back that Sunday. I put my son on a ferry on Monday, when the winds continued at 30 kts for a second day. After seeing him off, I called my boss (also a sailor) during the Monday morning staff meeting to tell him he wouldn’t be seeing me for at least another day. That earned my his label of “Sailbad the Sinner”. When I finally got underway, 2 days late, the conditions were absolutely ideal. Now that I was single handing, I had put in a deep reef before leaving the pond, only to find out no reef was needed. However, I did discover that my catboat was perfectly balanced for the first and only time in the 15 years I sailed that boat. That was fun, but slow, so I shook out the reef for a very delightful sail home. In fact, except for that sleepless first night and taking some unexpected time off from work, it was a delightful 3 1/2 days.

Lesson learned (for our hapless sailor): never have to sail to a schedule.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

We have friends who just exited sailing. They bought a 40’ boat in the BVIs 3 or 4 years ago. New sailors they were intimidated by the boat and the wind. Then the hurricane. Their boat survived better than most but dealing with insurance, contractors for repairs, anxiety, post hurricane conditions did them in. It was too much for too little return. 

They had very bad luck. It’s a shame. But they will find new adventures.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

many have been living someone else's dream. that only works a short time, then they exit.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

zeehag said:


> many have been living someone else's dream. that only works a short time, then they exit.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

zeehag said:


> many have been living someone else's dream. that only works a short time, then they exit.


Quite astute.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would mention person who caught most striped bass on Saturday’s striped bass fly fish tournament is 78. Ran in to cruising couple on sistership down in Antigua. He’s 82 she’s 78. Read about Morgan Dodge. He was able to ocean race/cruise into his ripe old age. I know many people doing the pond or other significant passages in their 70s and people in their 60s are very, very common. 
Modern boats take brains not brawn. Best ocean sailor who taught me was the local town librarian. She was under 100lbs, and in to her 60s when I met her. She said” if it’s hard to do... you’re doing it wrong”.


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## Ocean Cruising (Feb 2, 2016)

I don't know if there has been a reduction in the numbers of boaters out there, but I wonder - Do many of you all think that more people are renting boats instead of owning? If you just want to go sailing once or twice a year, it really makes much more sense to rent instead of own.
Also, for those of you who have been around boats for longer than a couple decades, do you think that it has become more difficult to live aboard or easier to live aboard?
I mean, I live on my boat, and I love it, but I've only been living like this for the past three years. I have no idea what it was like looking for live-aboard friendly marinas back in the 90's, 80's, 70's, 60's, or 1800's.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I find the whole meme "live your dream... go for it" kinda dumb.

Having goals in life is perfectly normal. We need to prepare, train, study and so forth to achieve a goal An example is to become a lawyer ... or a constitutional lawyer. Or a tennis player. Or a rich person. Any of the goals people seek to achieve are usually part of one's entire life. The goal of having a family can coexist with being a lawyer or a sailor.

Sailing as we all know encompasses a large range of activities.... but all linked by operating a sail boat. You don't even have to own a sailboat to be a sailor! You just need to know how to sail and sail on boats.

The "dream" stuff enters the mix because some sailing "options" involve more radical departure in one's life. Sailing which is recreational for some can be a lifestyle for others... that is they LIVE on a sailboat and likely continually sail from one (exotic) place to another. For some this means sailing far from where they "grew up" and worked to a distant place quite different in character. The reasons given to desire this goal is to "escape" the rat race, the city, the complications that arise in many traditional land based lifestyles... cars, homes - maintenance and mortgages, commuting, and so on. Of course boats need regular and constant and expensive maintenance as well and this almost always falls on the skipper. The further off the grid the more self reliant one needs to be. For some this is a goal... to be self reliant and less dependent on "others".

All goals represent "trade offs". If one devotes a lot of time and energy to being a great tennis player... it likely means one can't be a great soccer or baseball player of golfer... You only have so many hours in a day and so you make choices how to spend that time. And if you have a "family" ... some of those choices are made for you.

People who follow some lifestyle form or other may find themselves imaging a life where they didn't have the obligations that attend their lifestyle. Things like sports are escapes from "responsibilities".

Sailing as cruising and life aboard can seem like a full time "escape" from "responsibilities. And it is from SOME of them, but it comes with a new set of them. AND with a decreased ability to earn a living... often. So people realizing this may save and prepare for the time when they can jump from one set of responsibilities to the other. 

You may get what you want, but you lose what you had.

An alternative which hardly seems to not have much currency in the sailing "community" is the time limited "sabbatical". Rather then completely go from one life style to another... "permanently" the possibility exists to take a long lapse fully immerse in cruising for a number of years and then re evaluate and possible return and "sail" differently. This may be the best of both worlds and it may also be harder to pull off as well. However it appears that once most sailors leave they are unable to return to the life they left. No extended vacation for them... it's a complete repudiation of the land based life they once lived as if it was inadequate.

++++

I sailed off in mid life at 44... without knowing how long or where I would end up. I believed at the time I had done good work in my career and had achieved my career goals. I gave myself permission to close a chapter. My 4 years out there turned out to be an incredibly rich experience. However I also came to realize that I lost what I had... and missed some of that. I missed aspects of the urban life, the culture, the arts... the people and their energy. It might have been different if I came from rural Vermont or similar. I also returned when I was running out of cash and hadn't figured out a way to fund my cruising. So back I sailed... but with no intention of giving up the boat... I would sail mini cruisers and embrace the memories that now lived in my boat. Unlike many sailors I don't go from boat to boat. My boat became my home and anchor and very very personal. Getting rid of the boat would be like getting rid of my right arm. I just use it differently now.

I think term limited cruising is a good alternative and can be planned for without setting specific dates and destinations... simply keeping the idea that it is an experience that will come to an end... and then end will present itself at the right time. Of course the more people involved... partner, children and so on the more complex this becomes. I was single when I did it and can't even imagine the complexity of a wife, children, a mortgage and so on.

My advice... swap your dreams for achievable goals.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Often in life you are either working at going some place or to escape someplace. If you work more on the journey then the destination you tend to be more centered.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SanderO said:


> An alternative which hardly seems to not have much currency in the sailing "community" is the time limited "sabbatical". Rather then completely go from one life style to another... "permanently" the possibility exists to take a long lapse fully immerse in cruising for a number of years and then re evaluate and possible return and "sail" differently.


This is an approach I like.

In 2011 I quit work because I wanted to live on a sailboat. I didint have any specific destinations in mind, I just wanted to live on and sail my sailboat, and that was exactly what I did. I took about 4 years off my career, but ran my own small business for a bit of income; consulting, survival/rescue training, deliveries etc. Eventually I had to go back to work, and I sold my live aboard sailboat because it was no longer practical. I did not quit sailing though, I just switched to week ending and vacation cruising.

Fast forward to now and I am taking another year or so off, starting in the next couple of weeks. This time our goal is to trailer sail Eastern North America, starting in Canada and working our way south as the weather turns ugly in the fall, eventually ending up back in the Everglades for January/February (we were there last winter and fell in love with the area).

This isn't the life style that is recognized as "cruising", but we care not, its what we want to do, our goals.

Then when our leave of absence is over, back to work and back to week end/vacation sailing.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Arcb said:


> This is an approach I like.
> 
> In 2011 I quit work because I wanted to live on a sailboat. I didint have any specific destinations in mind, I just wanted to live on and sail my sailboat, and that was exactly what I did. I took about 4 years off my career, but ran my own small business for a bit of income; consulting, survival/rescue training, deliveries etc. Eventually I had to go back to work, and I sold my live aboard sailboat because it was no longer practical. I did not quit sailing though, I just switched to week ending and vacation cruising.
> 
> ...


I thought to sell the boat at one point... and owning seemed a large expense. But I got back to work, paid the mortgage... upgrades were largely done... and it was more basic repair maintenance and "cleaning"... Spring prep.. I kept the boat and it was the right decision. Storage is the biggest expense... winter and summer! And we've thought to live on the hook and that would wipe out the vast majority of the present ownership costs... aside from insurance.


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## Attikos (May 26, 2018)

I figure that should I ever grow up and get too old to sail on salt water, I'll go back to the hills in which I grew up and get a houseboat on one of the big TVA lakes.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I certainly don't think there is only one way to view sailing or cruising. For me, it's not (mainly) about sailing; it's about the lifestyle. A cruising sailboat works for me right now, but I can easily envision a scenario when I would trade this for something else. Full-time, part-time, trailer camping &#8230; whatever. Do what brings you joy. Who cares what others think.

(BTW, I love my boat, and it would be hard to say goodbye to it, but I'm not very attached to things.)

For us (me and she), we're currently full-time for about 1/2 of each year. We've chosen to stay in Canada so far, which means wintering on board is not an easy option. So we spend about six months on the boat (although it will be less this year), and six months doing other stuff. Three years ago we motorcycled around Canada and the USA (dipping into Mexico). That was awesome. Last two winters have been spent house sitting and visiting friends/family. So far, it all works.

My (our) lifestyle is a choice that comes with plenty of plusses, and more than a few negatives. All meaningful life choices are double-edged swords. We certainly planned for this boating/other lifestyle. We prepared and made choices, some of which were/are hard.

As for the whole escape thing &#8230; some are doing this, and I think that's just fine. For me, my view is not to escape, but to secede. When my spouse and I embarked on this plan, oh so many years ago, we defined what it was we were really trying to achieve. We came up with these concepts, which we've turned into a bit of a motto:

_CLAFC - Creativity, Learning, Adventure, Freedom & Cessation_

These are the things that drive us. Right now the boat life works, but that's just a means to an end. If something better comes along, we'll change.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Arcb said:


> This is an approach I like.
> 
> In 2011 I quit work because I wanted to live on a sailboat. I didint have any specific destinations in mind, I just wanted to live on and sail my sailboat, and that was exactly what I did. I took about 4 years off my career, but ran my own small business for a bit of income; consulting, survival/rescue training, deliveries etc. Eventually I had to go back to work, and I sold my live aboard sailboat because it was no longer practical. I did not quit sailing though, I just switched to week ending and vacation cruising.
> 
> ...


Indeed it does not have to be all or nothing!

A well set up trailer sailor that can be fast rigged and on the water in 10 to 15 minutes can be great after work for a few hours summer sailing before the sun sets at 8:30 pm or for holiday weekend jaunts sans the marina fees, etc.

People spend more time and money maintaining swimming pools they rarely use then they could on a reasonably sized picnic boat or beach cat. Plus you will be hard pressed to sell most in-ground swimming pools.

Some who claim its a money issue I see spending an extra $10 to $20 a day 7 days a week on fast food instead of packing a lunch or eating at home then complaining about having to throw food away that goes bad in the refrigerator. That $3,650 to $7,300 they could have used to pay for a membership or a small picnic boat or beach cat and have money to spare.

Here on the Florida Gulf Coast we can sail year round which makes a $400/$500 Community Sailing Center membership more valuable since it allows you to sail at least 6 days a week year round in most places (7 days a week during summer camp) on boats that are all rigged and ready to go.

A lot of options even for those with limited time or finances.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Speaking for me only... I would never become a day sailor on a small boat... liked what I learned to sail on. Boy was that boat fun... and sometimes I see those boats on the water... in the harbor mostly.... But for me the ability to sail... is the ability to sort of go "anywhere" the water touches... no roads or tolls... or smelly expensive gas (Yea I know we have diesels). It's the possibility to life a rich life unmoored to one place. But to have a comfortable home that I can take wherever I want... no hotel or motel rooms... no impersonal airBNB. And it's a lean clean life... a clean wake life... can be quiet and peaceful of thrilling and challenging. But it's all up to YOU want you make it and how you make. It's the ultimate personal responsibility.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I love this sort of recurring conversation. When we were in first year architecture studio , a great professor would give the freshman a mind bending lecture about the nature of man. It included a talk on "man's alienation from nature". You could summarize it as the story of the Garden of Eden. 

We live in the information age. Its also a disinformation age, sort of an InfoWars time. Many people, mostly men but women too are increasingly feeling alienated from society. The idea of sailing away to live on a boat is one of the few remedies one can imagine. The others might be living off grid in the wilderness ( Christopher McCandless) and living a nomadic experience in a camper or on a motorcycle. Easy Rider. 

The goal of these adventures seems to be re connection with nature and the true self, and to some extent with other people and also with the flow of time as a now sequence of events. I think such a journey quite profoundly noble although I see that words now fail me to accurately describe it. But for me and for those that pursue such things, a detailed description isn't necessary. We know it. What I don't know, what no one knows is the price of finding the truth, and if its even possible to come back from it. It might be poetic justice to risk everything. 

I don't know if it has to be a 3 year circumnavigation, or if the same thing can be accomplished in a few months, or just simple meditation. I think the most horrifying life is to be unaware of this, and miss out but most on here are well equipped to appreciate the danger and avoid such a fate.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I wanna be an airborne ranger,
Live the life of guts and danger.

Airborne ranger,
Life of danger.

I wanna be a scuba diver,
Swim around in the muddy water.

Scuba diver, muddy water.
Airborne ranger, life of danger.

I wanna be an S.F. medic,
Shoot some funky anisthetic.

S.F.medic, anesthetic.
Scuba diver, muddy water.
Airborne ranger, guts and danger.

And when I retire.

Im gonna be a texas ranger,
Drive around in sking tight wranglers!

Texas ranger, skin tight wranglers.

Im gonna be a UPS man,
Drive around in a ugly brown van.

Ups man, ugly brown van
Texas ranger, skintight wranglers.

Im gonna be a forrest ranger.
Chipmunks are my greatest danger.

Forrest ranger, chipmunk danger.
UPS man, ugly brown van.
Forrest ranger, chipmunk danger.

I'm gonna be a YouTube Sailor,
I'm gonna make an online million
It's a new world and I'm way over my head !


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

.


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## flyrod (Oct 29, 2011)

Outbound, interesting, I've been doing the spring catch and release on MV since '96 except for '09 when my wife died. would have enjoyed meeting you, maybe next year. You are certainly correct about passion, it is what can move mountains. By the way, I will be 70 in a few months, and though I am not currently a full time cruiser, I divide my time between flyfishing in light air, and sailing in heavy air, works for me at present. Both impart a serenity to your soul.


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## PatWarden (Jun 5, 2018)

Many say old age which is totally right but if we look closer it is the lifestyle of the people that is the reason behind quit boating. nowadays, changing lifestyle of Peoples changes their habits. Also another thing is time, which many people do not have.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I think one can continue with "boating" in a less "aggressive" for lack of a better word... manner as one gets old. You need to have strong competent people when you sail... you need to make access to the boat and the cabin work as your agility leaves you. You have to take it slower... and do exercise. You'll have to have others do more of the maintenance... but some can be done by anyone... 

Boats keep your mind active. Boating is problem solving. 

Maintaining a house is no different... you need more help as your energy and agility leaves you. And it's more work probably.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

S good points. I won’t go up the mast anymore unless there’s no choice. I won’t work on the roof. However, even a fat, out of shape old man like me can sail. It takes a bit of forethought. That’s all. I knew my limitations and their progression when I spec’d the boat. I did multiple things to make it easier for me as I age. Power winches. Extra hand holds. Granny bars. Redundant systems. Having the yard sand but continuing to paint the bottom myself. Whereas in the past I might put in a 10 hour day on a task now I’ll split it over several days. I sail and work smarter. And I take a lot of Motrin 🤪.

When boat shopping this issue was in my mind. Can I sail this boat? Can my wife sail it? How long can we sail it for until physical limitations prevent it? Will it safely do the sailing program I have in mind? Is it comfortable at anchor and underway?
She has a phrf of 90. There are faster boats. As long as I can count on 170-200m per day speed was less important to me.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would mention I think everyone overestimates the speed of their boat. Out of boredom went through the passage logs. We averaged ~ just a bit over 6 knots. Been told that’s not bad but we usually turn the engine on at 5.5 knots.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> S good points. I won't go up the mast anymore unless there's no choice.......


I've been losing my edge on that one as well. In fact, over the winter, I purchased a tower climbing harness, that has a seat and shoulder straps, so it's impossible to fall out. The safety line also attaches to your back, so you don't break anything if you fall those few feet, until you make up the slack. You could literally pass out in the thing and not fall out. I decided to buy it right after I read about that young lady who fell to the deck, from a bosuns chair last year, and died.

I bit pricey, but way less expensive than a funeral.

I've yet to use it, as I'm admittedly a bit self conscious. However, if stuck at sea in a pinch, I'm going up in this contraption, rather than my old bench seat bosuns chair. Finding a place to put it was a challenge.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

First thing I put on our big boat was steps. 

I’ve used them a lot.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Minnie can you post a link?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Minnie can you post a link?


ExoFit NEX? Tower Climbing Harness


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

That's quite a harness!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

+1 but wife (who goes up usually) is 4’10” and me at 6’ would need to buy 2. Mucho dinero. Maybe I’ll get one for her.heh heh. Then she owns the mast top and can send me videos.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I bought a roof workers call restraint harness from Lowe’s it HD. I sewed in a couple of D rings for tethers. We have steps so this is a safety backup.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I bought the ATN climber a number of years ago. I’m fat and out of shape but I have no problem going up to the top of our mast with it. It’s kinda like a combo climbing ascender and a standard bosun’s chair. It’s very comfortable, and I can’t see how you could fall out of it.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> I bought the ATN climber a number of years ago. I'm fat and out of shape but I have no problem going up to the top of our mast with it. It's kinda like a combo climbing ascender and a standard bosun's chair. It's very comfortable, and I can't see how you could fall out of it.


Interesting..Mixed reviews with this product..

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/atn-...MI27GK-_bL2wIVQiOBCh279QEfEAQYBCABEgJp__D_BwE


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> +1 but wife (who goes up usually) is 4'10" and me at 6' would need to buy 2. Mucho dinero. Maybe I'll get one for her.heh heh. Then she owns the mast top and can send me videos.


Pricey for sure. This would not be the only brand out there, if you wanted to research others. Tower climbers don't use our bosun chairs for a reason. Why do we?

I've not actually gone up the stick with it yet. I know I've gotten less comfortable with my harken chair each time I use it and I've either been at the slip or anchor every time. Any need to go up in a pitching sea and I simply wouldn't do it. With this harness, I'm sure I would be safe, even in a pitching sea.

Like it said, cheaper than a funeral.


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## Lonestaralaskan (Jun 10, 2018)

With the growing number of vlogs I'm finding on Youtube, I assumed sailing was increasing in popularity. We are still 3 to 4 years from being able to take off, but hoping to find lots of families out there when we do leave. We'll have a 3 and 4 year old on board!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Lonestaralaskan said:


> With the growing number of vlogs I'm finding on Youtube, I assumed sailing was increasing in popularity. We are still 3 to 4 years from being able to take off, but hoping to find lots of families out there when we do leave. We'll have a 3 and 4 year old on board!


As we all know, the Internet never lies


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Lonestaralaskan said:


> With the growing number of vlogs I'm finding on Youtube, I assumed sailing was increasing in popularity. We are still 3 to 4 years from being able to take off, but hoping to find lots of families out there when we do leave. We'll have a 3 and 4 year old on board!


So you have an infant and a 1 year old, and you plan to sell everything and sail off with no sailing or live aboard experience?

Yipes, you are brave. I guess, get a small boat right now and get yourself and the kids exposed to sailing. Infant life jackets start at about 8lbs.


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## Lonestaralaskan (Jun 10, 2018)

Arcb said:


> So you have an infant and a 1 year old, and you plan to sell everything and sail off with no sailing or live aboard experience?
> 
> Yipes, you are brave. I guess, get a small boat right now and get yourself and the kids exposed to sailing. Infant life jackets start at about 8lbs.


Yipes, alot of assumptions in that reply. Where did I mentioned how much sailing experience I have?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Arcb said:


> So you have an infant and a 1 year old, and you plan to sell everything and sail off with no sailing or live aboard experience?
> 
> Yipes, you are brave. I guess, get a small boat right now and get yourself and the kids exposed to sailing. Infant life jackets start at about 8lbs.


Sounds much more exciting than a picket fence and established/programmed commercial droning...


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Lonestaralaskan said:


> Yipes, alot of assumptions in that reply. Where did I mentioned how much sailing experience I have?


Your signature, "from landlubbers to live aboards"?


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