# How does the marine industry price?



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

So I was looking up my toilet in a futile attempt to figure out how to use it. Anyways bringing up the model linked west marine's site and it cost $199. I thought it would be $1000. It and a lot of other things got me wondering how they come up with what they are going to sell something for. I have blocks that cost as much as this whole toilet. And don't even get me started on how much I found out my propeller cost. 

Are they throwing darts at a board with numbers or is there some sort of reasoning behind this?

I'm not saying boat stuff is overpriced, but that it seems inconsistent. If I don't know how much something cost I can't even guess. Like a refrifgerator. I have no idea. Maybe it's $200 or $2000. Is it just me? What's the craziest thing you have seen? Low or high, it doesn't matter. 

I will say the only thing that makes sense is electronics. They seem to follow a pattern.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

NOB, as I understand it, boat stuff needs to be *suitable for use in a marine environment *because the 'marine environment' means lots of salt air (corrosion) and sunshine (UV radiation).

That means anything metal will be more expensive than you'd be used to eg. blocks should(*) be made from non-magnetic stainless steels, and plastic, canvas and paints should(*) contain UV-resistant additives and anything electrical or electronic should(*) use tinned-copper wires and resin-coated circuit boards ...and something like a marine toilet should not need anything very special at all.

In summary: Reputation means everything. Buy high-quality products from people like Jamestown Distributors and you're less likely to regret it later when miles out of sight of land. 

* = There are always shonky deals out there. eg. One reputable-but-cheap maker of sheet blocks uses cheap stainless in some (but not all) of their range to keep costs down and increase their competitiveness. Buyer beware!!


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

That makes sense. But I would have thought that the toilet also would be in the more expensive marine group. I mean, they flush with salt water right? And that's corrosive, they need special lube and care. Also, unlike a regular toilet, they need locks and hand pumps and different in hoses and out hoses. So I would have expected them to be priced higher. 

Don't think for one second though, I ever cheap out and get china blocks, or the cheap fishing store blocks and gear. It's all name brand. Except for the old car batteries I found in the dumpster that are powering my "house". But I have ten in a cardboard box in the bilge so it works.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

As in all other industries.

The price is _not _based on production and development cost.

The price have to give revenue.
The price i based on what the customers are willing to pay.

That's why you can find the same product in different markets with different prices.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

With many items, marine or otherwise, price is based on cost to produce. Volume of sales is a huge factor in this. A Jabsco twist and lock manual head is made in vast numbers and the price is quite low - $169 here - as it is used on all types of boats from the basic small sailboat or powerboat to larger boats. Blocks and other items of hardware are not built in as large numbers and that has an effect on pricing. 

Inlet and outlet hoses are not part of the head and are not included in the price. Top quality sanitation hose is about $10 per foot for 1 1/2".


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Many marine products are only built in small numbers. That drives the price up as the development costs have to spread out over a much smaller number of sales. It explains why a 10 inch chartplotter costs more than a 50 inch smart TV. If something is a minor modification of something that is sold for other uses, that can keep the costs down. I suspect marine heads are also used in things like RVs and that helps keep the cost down a bit.


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

Whatever the market will bear + 15%....that's how west marine got so big.


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## saillife (Jun 25, 2006)

Take a look at the rebuild kit price for the Jabsco and you'll feel it's price is more 'marine'. As others said Jabsco makes a lot of toilet bowls and salt water isn't going to corrode the bowl. 

As for blocks I've got some on my boat that are 20+ years old and going strong. When you consider the enviroment they are in I'd say they are worth the cost.

West marine story. I bought a starboard cockpit table (~$250 I think) that locks into the pedestal without first checking if it would fit my pedestal. It didn't and they only carried one size  So the Admiral goes on the web and finds the company. Sure enough they make one that will fit our pedistal which we ordered from them and returned the other one. The kicker you ask? The company MSRP was almost a $100 less than what west marine sold it for.......

Brian


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Get as familiar with RV suppliers as you are with West Marine and Defender. You can often find the same part with the same item number for considerably less. 

Our fresh water pump is also used in RV's. When ours went south I bought two, literally two pumps for less than the cost of one pump at West Marine. So now I have a new pump and a spare. 

And yes it's the same model number pump.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

One of the other issues in pricing marine parts is the very slow turnover. A grocery store for instance expects to sell everything on the shelves in much less time than WestMarine, which allows the grocery store to make a smaller markup per item sold. 

The inventory turnover ratio (number of times per year) for Whole Foods for instance is 20.6 so the entire inventory in a store is turned over a little over 20 times a year on average. The ratio for WestMarine is .47, meaning West turns their inventory about every two years. Obviously this has a huge impact on things like carrying costs, shrinkage, outdated equipment, ect...

Despite the fact many consumers tend to think that prices are increased just for the marine market, in reality most manufacturers don't enter the marine industry because margins are notoriously thin. There just isn't much money to be made from selling to a small market that required a lot of specialized engineering.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

The last time I read the West Marine annual report to stockholders their net profit was 3/4% on sales. 

The pricing of West Marine private label goods is confounding. Some of their soft goods provide good value. On the other hand I've seen a WM labeled product priced at 50% more than the identical non-WM product shelved beside it.

I'm frequently amazed by the outstanding support that vendors provide.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

A marine head is a pretty simple machine and is made in huge quantities. They show up on every boat, not just sailboats. It is made of injection molded plastic along with a porcelain bowl, and that bowl gets used in RV toilets. 

A block of the same price (around $175) would be something like a fiddle block with a cam cleat -- like what you'd find at the bottom of the main sheet. It needs to handle being pulled apart by about #2000 or more of force, and the sheaves need to be able to turn while doing so. It needs to work even when it is completely immersed in salt water and spends most of it's life exposed to UV. The $175 block like this is light and probably made of an exotic glass reinforced plastic (if you didn't care about weight you'd buy the $70 Garhauer block). It is made in small quantities -- the only market is for new sailboats and replacement hardware on aging sailboats. 

The smaller the production quantities the higher the cost of manufacturing. The higher the precision and the more exotic the materials the higher the cost of manufacturing. So that $175 block is pegging the scale on all of those accounts, while the toilet is not.

If sailing was much more popular hardware would be cheaper because the scale of production would increase.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

northoceanbeach said:


> ... Except for the old car batteries I found in the dumpster that are powering my "house". But I have ten in a cardboard box in the bilge so it works.


Is this one of those times that you mentioned yesterday where you're being funny and it doesn't always come across as humor?

(hoping that's the case)


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> Except for the *old car batteries* I found in the dumpster that are powering my "house". But I have ten in a *cardboard box* in the bilge so it works.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

northoceanbeach said:


> Except for the old car batteries I found in the dumpster that are powering my "house". But I have ten in a cardboard box in the bilge so it works.


I hope you are kidding.

1. Did you load test the batteries after you dumpster dove them? Having your batteries go flat while out sailing is at best inconvenient (refrigeration stops) and at worst a safety issue (navigation lights and radio fail).

2. Cardboard boxes don't provide the expected gas separation and ventilation for wet batteries. There is explosive potential.

3. Cardboard boxes in the bilge will disintegrate. The bits and pieces will end up clogging the intakes to bilge pumps. That is unquestionably a safety issue.

What other problems do you have that you don't know about?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The explosive nature of wet battery fumes is no joke. I guess we only learn about wet paper in the bilge and exploding batteries by painful experience


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

The marine industry prices things exactly the same way that ALL industries price things, and the same way that WE all price things when we are selling our own stuff... What the market will bear.

Yes, it really is that simple.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Be glad you don't have a Volvo Penta engine. I bought a fuse for $82. The control panel buzzer.....$152. Impeller....$6000 (or some other outrageous amount)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Tenoch said:


> Be glad you don't have a Volvo Penta engine. I bought a fuse for $82. The control panel buzzer.....$152. Impeller....$6000 (or some other outrageous amount)


You might want to do some research, it's highly unlikely your engine requires a "Volvo Impeller", for instance... I'd be very surprised if Volvo actually makes impellers, after all...

For example, the popular Volvo 2030 is actually a re-branded Perkins Series 100 M-30, the same engine I have in my boat... Turns out they are both based on a block made by Shibauhara (sp?) Mfg of Japan, and is one of the most popular small tractor/industrial engines in the world... Parts are widely interchangeable and available, just takes a little (or a lot) of digging, to find out what you need...

One thing those folks at Volvo and Westerbeke are really good at, is painting over stuff  That "Volvo" starter motor that you might need, and were quoted $800 to replace, might have been made by Hitachi, and can be had from Budda's Auto & Marine Electric on eBay for $179... Only those with more money than they know what to do with, necessarily need to be putting "VOLVO Oil Filters" on a Volvo 2030...


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> So I was looking up my toilet in a futile attempt to figure out how to use it. Anyways bringing up the model linked west marine's site and it cost $199. I thought it would be $1000. It and a lot of other things got me wondering how they come up with what they are going to sell something for. I have blocks that cost as much as this whole toilet. And don't even get me started on how much I found out my propeller cost.
> 
> Are they throwing darts at a board with numbers or is there some sort of reasoning behind this?
> 
> ...


I will start with your last comment.

Electronics are priced alike because they are all price fixed.
This technology is very old, and even an ipad makes them look slow and pedantic. So the manufactures set a price, and they all stick to it.
thats why a 15" chart plotter from anyone costs thousands.
And a 15" touch monitor cost less then $250.

To answer all your questions thou, they charge what people are willing to pay.
I have next to me a black magic 75MM block. Priced at $240.
Its a bearing, some aluminum, and some stainless. I could make one myself with a small 3D mill and some aluminum stock for about $15-$25.

This is also why I keep looking for a tiny 3D mill that can make things of aluminum. Right now they are expensive.

You want a desk fan for your car? $5 at big lots, you want a marine fan? $100. Sure, they are not the same, but they are also not much different.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> Electronics are priced alike because they are all price fixed.


If you have any real evidence of this, there are a number of regulatory agencies that would be very interested, since this sort of collusion between manufacturers would be completely illegal.



UnionPacific said:


> ...thats why a 15" chart plotter from anyone costs thousands. And a 15" touch monitor cost less then $250.


Please tell me where I can buy a waterproof, 15" monitor, that can be read in full daylight, for less than $250. I am very anxious to buy one. But I'm not dumb. I know that such a thing doesn't exist. In fact, a computer with a 15" monitor that is readable in full daylight will cost thousands, just like the chart plotter.

This is all simply a matter of "what the market will bear."


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

UnionPacific said:


> This is also why I keep looking for a tiny 3D mill that can make things of aluminum. Right now they are expensive.


Pretty much everything in your post is wrong, including this statement. You can buy an extremely functional CNC mill for under $2000. I bought one (a used Taig 2019CR) for $1100 and it paid for itself (in products that were made on it and sold) within a few months. If you get the machine and know how to use it you can easily pay for the machine.

I have a pretty good basement metal shop and would never think of duplicating a Harken block. On the other hand I have made replacement masthead sheaves (which are much simpler) on my lathe.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Marine products DO need to be considerably more rugged than mass consumer items, especially electronics. Sit that iPad or that "smart" phone out in the salt water spray for a while and see what happens. I have had my little Garmin 376C plotter for years. It has held up through all sorts of rotten weather, direct sunlight, and few thousand hours of boat use. I've used it in the car and hiking and it is still as dependable as ever. The screen is bright in the sun, the buttons have been pushed thousands of times and still work like new. It just keeps on ticking and is worth every cent I paid for it when it was new. The amount of development and research involved in making these specialized, limited market marine tools makes them worth more than run of the mill electronics.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Most of you are way too cynical.

I believe in the perfect marketplace, especially with the Internet providing almost unlimited information on everything.

If a particular marine manufacturer or retailer prices something too high, either the item won't sell because people will buy elsewhere, or it will sell and he'll make such a fat profit margin that others competitors will get into the business seeking his fat profit margin, and the resulting competition will bring prices down eventually. (The large exception to this is a patent, which gives a novel invention a temporary monopoly and thus ability to charge a premium price.)

So it really is "what the market will bear" (as someone else correctly noted). High development costs for low-volume items will unavoidably lead to high prices.


UnionPacific said:


> ...I have next to me a black magic 75MM block. Priced at $240.
> Its a bearing, some aluminum, and some stainless. I could make one myself with a small 3D mill and some aluminum stock for about $15-$25...


You're kidding me, right? Show me where you can find a 3D mill for under $25. After all, you did say "a small 3D mill and some aluminum stock for about $15-$25."

If it was as easy as you say, everyone would make their own.

I suspect once you add in the amortized cost of the 3D mill, training of the operator, marine grade stainless, prototyping, testing, rework, distribution channel (warehouse space, shipping, and profit for the wholesaler and retailer), etc., you end up with a cost that only allows a modest profit at your purchase price of $240. If the profit is too high, others will jump in and eventually bring the price down.

Also, everyone likes to bust on West Marine. But they're about the only large chain left, so they must be doing something better than their competitors. They are constrained by the cost of their brick-and-mortar locations, but they serve a critical service to the marine retail industry. It will be a sad day when a critical piece of ground tackle or running rigging breaks and you have to cancel your trip because you have to wait for 2-day shipping from an Internet supplier. That happened to me in Rock Hall a couple months ago in the middle of a cruise. Thank goodness I was able to drop by West Marine and get an immediate replacement.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> You're kidding me, right? Show me where you can find a 3D mill for under $25. After all, you did say "a small 3D mill and some aluminum stock for about $15-$25."
> 
> If it was as easy as you say, everyone would make their own.
> 
> I suspect once you add in the amortized cost of the 3D mill, training of the operator, marine grade stainless, prototyping, testing, rework, distribution channel (warehouse space, shipping, and profit for the wholesaler and retailer), etc., you end up with a cost that only allows a modest profit at your purchase price of $240. If the profit is too high, others will jump in and eventually bring the price down.


Really, you think I am saying a 3D mill is $25, or perhaps you can read it again, and see the stock is $25 and the 3D mill is understood as purchased.

The only other cost is the mill.
Training the operator, marine grade stainless??? I said aluminum. Not many of the blocks, for a yacht my size, uses stainless as a primary material.

The people who do not find cad easy, just pay the stick price and go sailing.

I want to use the mill for not just blocks, but also for creating blocks for my standing rigging, milling a new mixing elbow for my engine, making a serpentine belt system for my engine, and basically making every part I could need that can be made from aluminum, or plastic, thou I am not sure about bronze.



> Pretty much everything in your post is wrong, including this statement. You can buy an extremely functional CNC mill for under $2000. I bought one (a used Taig 2019CR) for $1100 and it paid for itself (in products that were made on it and sold) within a few months. If you get the machine and know how to use it you can easily pay for the machine.


agreed. I am looking at the nomad, and the shapeoko 2. the second is just under $1000. I was hoping they would be under $500 as there is not much to them other then a few stepper motors, and a complex circuit.

CAD is easy to learn, and because I am not building bridges, I can mess up with wood, and when its right, convert to aluminum.
Honestly I was hoping they would make a 3D printer that would print in aluminum, so far no luck outside stupid expensive laser.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> If you have any real evidence of this, there are a number of regulatory agencies that would be very interested, since this sort of collusion between manufacturers would be completely illegal.
> 
> Please tell me where I can buy a waterproof, 15" monitor, that can be read in full daylight, for less than $250. I am very anxious to buy one. But I'm not dumb. I know that such a thing doesn't exist. In fact, a computer with a 15" monitor that is readable in full daylight will cost thousands, just like the chart plotter.
> 
> This is all simply a matter of "what the market will bear."


It does not take a big brain or deleted emails to see that they are all about the same price, and the price is tightly controlled right up to the retailer level.

Where is the marine equivalent of android to an iphone?

Who says the monitor needs to be waterproof? I can find a few on albia for under $500 but only in bulk, 50+ units, with 1000 nits. Honestly I dont need something that can be viewed in direct sun, our cockpit is covered, and I want one for below decks as well. My LG has been happy in the salt air below decks for a year now. In fact we do not have a single household item that we brought with us that has failed.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> If a particular marine manufacturer or retailer prices something too high, either the item won't sell because people will buy elsewhere, or it will sell and he'll make such a fat profit margin that others competitors will get into the business seeking his fat profit margin, and the resulting competition will bring prices down eventually. (The large exception to this is a patent, which gives a novel invention a temporary monopoly and thus ability to charge a premium price.)


Marine products are under strict price control. A retailer may not charge less then a set price, or they may have the franchise revoked.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

UnionPacific said:


> agreed. I am looking at the nomad, and the shapeoko 2. the second is just under $1000. I was hoping they would be under $500 as there is not much to them other then a few stepper motors, and a complex circuit.


These are routers, not mills. The rigidity is not there to make precision objects.

A mixing elbow (at least the one on my Yanmar) is not a good design to machine. It is not really a machinable object based on it's shape, it would need to be cast or welded from component parts.

I suggest taking some machining classes to get some experience working with these materials before getting too excited about making major structural parts for your boat in your basement.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> Marine products are under strict price control. A retailer may not charge less then a set price, or they may have the franchise revoked.


And your evidence to support/corroborate this allegation is....? As a matter of Case Law, in _Leegin Creative Leather Prods., Inc. v. PSKS, Inc._, 127 S. Ct. 2705 (2007), the Supreme Court effectively ruled that retail price minimum ("RPM") agreements/dictates is a violation of section 1 of the Sherman Act. Accordingly...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Tenoch said:


> Be glad you don't have a Volvo Penta engine. I bought a fuse for $82. The control panel buzzer.....$152. Impeller....$6000 (or some other outrageous amount)


Not only does Volvo not make the impellers, they don't even make the pump. There are 4 water pump manufacturers in the world and they are Jabsco (the largest share I believe), Johnson, Sherwood, and Oberdorfer.

Common Jabsco impellers start at about $20 or so for the smaller ones likely to be on a sailboat engine.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

mitiempo said:


> Not only does Volvo not make the impellers, they don't even make the pump. There are 4 water pump manufacturers in the world and they are Jabsco (the largest share I believe), Johnson, Sherwood, and Oberdorfer. .


Hmmm. our local engine dealer told me there were no other options for my D1-30 engine impeller other than from Volvo Penta.

(ok maybe it wasn't $6000 - sometimes $40 seems like $6000 to us poor folks)


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> Marine products are under strict price control. A retailer may not charge less then a set price, or they may have the franchise revoked.


Bullsh*t


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Tenoch said:


> Hmmm. our local engine dealer told me there were no other options for my D1-30 engine impeller other than from Volvo Penta.
> 
> (ok maybe it wasn't $6000 - sometimes $40 seems like $6000 to us poor folks)


Find out who made the pump. It is one of the 4 listed above. Then shop for it. A good marine store carries a large selection of impellers.

Oh, Volvo doesn't make fuses either.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> Where is the marine equivalent of android to an iphone?


With such a small market why would any company produce an android. It only exists in the phone market because the sales numbers are astronomical.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

mitiempo said:


> Find out who made the pump. It is one of the 4 listed above. Then shop for it. A good marine store carries a large selection of impellers.
> 
> Oh, Volvo doesn't make fuses either.


Anyway...as I was saying. Volvo Penta replacement parts are expensive. Not really looking for an argument or advice here....just a blanket statement really. Thanks though.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Tenoch said:


> Anyway...as I was saying. Volvo Penta replacement parts are expensive.


Yes, they are known worldwide for their high prices. Just pointing out if you do not need a Volvo specific part there are other options. Same goes for any other engine brand.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Alex W said:


> These are routers, not mills. The rigidity is not there to make precision objects.
> 
> A mixing elbow (at least the one on my Yanmar) is not a good design to machine. It is not really a machinable object based on it's shape, it would need to be cast or welded from component parts.
> 
> I suggest taking some machining classes to get some experience working with these materials before getting too excited about making major structural parts for your boat in your basement.


I would be breaking it down into parts. I believe I could do it in two parts, then coat the aluminum with ceramic. Not sure why they do not coat them from the factory with ceramic? Anyway the one I make for mine will be practice, I would like to offer a service of making the ones that are out of production.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> With such a small market why would any company produce an android. It only exists in the phone market because the sales numbers are astronomical.


I would not call it a small market. Its something that people use on something as small as a johnboat, up to a megayacht. Literally 1 million units a year could be sold. I am sure more people would buy it if it worked well, and was low priced and sold in stores.



mitiempo said:


> Bullsh*t


Good, show me where I can buy the RAYMARINE i70 System Pack for under $1150.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I work in Vancouver Island's largest marine store (it's not West Marine) and do a lot of the ordering as well as pricing. We are not Raymarine dealers but do sell Standard Horizon, Icom, Humminbird, Garmin and Lowrance. The prices are not set by any manufacturer that I know of - illegal in Canada and probably in the US as well. Electronics does have the lowest profit margin in the marine industry. 

A quick search shows the Raymarine I70 at prices from 1250 to 1700. I would bet that @1250 there is very little profit in it.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> I work in Vancouver Island's largest marine store (it's not West Marine) and do a lot of the ordering as well as pricing. We are not Raymarine dealers but do sell Standard Horizon, Icom, Humminbird, Garmin and Lowrance. The prices are not set by any manufacturer that I know of - illegal in Canada and probably in the US as well. Electronics does have the lowest profit margin in the marine industry.
> 
> A quick search shows the Raymarine I70 at prices from 1250 to 1700. I would bet that @1250 there is very little profit in it.


here in the USA prices may be set by the manufacturer. If its not legal, then a lot of big corps, have great lawyers.
As far as I could tell the garmin 740i was never a clearance item. They were replaced, and then they disappeared one day. Just as I was ready to buy one.

I don't know much about Canada, except that your all into hockey, have no real summer, have square wheels on cars, and have funny heads.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> here in the USA prices may be set by the manufacturer.


In the largest free market economy in the Western world - not likely. As I posted I found 4 or 5 prices in the US on the Raymarine with a range of $450 from lowest to highest.

See post #29


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> In the largest free market economy in the Western world - not likely. As I posted I found 4 or 5 prices in the US on the Raymarine with a range of $450 from lowest to highest.
> 
> See post #29


lots of mays and mights, but no solid case law.




This is wikipedia thou, and take that as you should. (read not reliable)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

UnionPacific said:


> To answer all your questions thou, they charge what people are willing to pay.
> I have next to me a black magic 75MM block. Priced at $240.
> Its a bearing, some aluminum, and some stainless. I could make one myself with a small 3D mill and some aluminum stock for about $15-$25.


With those kind of skills, why not go for it then, start a cottage industry that would knock Harken, Schaefer, Ronstan, even Garhauer off their high horses? Word of mouth that you are producing the equivalent of Harken Black Magic for 1/10th the price would spread through the sailing world like wildfire, instantly negating the 40 years Harken has put into marketing, advertising, boat shows, and all those other silly expenses beyond simple production...

Hell, after a year or two, you should be able to cruise for the rest of your life on a $5K/month budget, instead of shooting for the $500/month mark...

I wouldn't bother with the roller furling corner of the market, however... We already know that Brent makes furlers "far superior" to anything else out there, with nothing more than materials he recycles from dumpsters...


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> With those kind of skills, why not go for it then, start a cottage industry that would knock Harken, Schaefer, Ronstan, even Garhauer off their high horses? Word of mouth that you are producing the equivalent of Harken Black Magic for 1/10th the price would spread through the sailing world like wildfire, instantly negating the 40 years Harken has put into marketing, advertising, boat shows, and all those other silly expenses beyond simple production...
> 
> Hell, after a year or two, you should be able to cruise for the rest of your life on a $5K/month budget, instead of shooting for the $500/month mark...
> 
> I wouldn't bother with the roller furling corner of the market, however... We already know that Brent makes furlers "far superior" to anything else out there, with nothing more than materials he recycles from dumpsters...


Not sure I could make it look as sexy as my black magic.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)




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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

What's trollish about this? Union Pacific singlehanded completely down the East Coast in winter if I remember right. 

I never started the thread mentioning whether marine products are overpriced, you can talk about that if you want, I was more just thinking that the pricing seems inconsistent.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

northoceanbeach said:


> What's trollish about this?


Stubbornly repeating false accusations that have no basis in truth.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> Stubbornly repeating false accusations that have no basis in truth.


Sorry, its called a disagreement. I am glad you do not agree with me, however saying "I'm right, your wrong, you jerk" does not mean that is true either.

I have given you a great example, I will extrapolate more.

raymarine system pack: $1400
RAYMARINE i70 System Pack with Wind, Depth & Speed Transducers | West Marine

garmin $1400
NEXUS, A GARMIN COMPANY NX Start Pack 4 | West Marine

B&G $1400
B&G Triton Instrument Speed, Depth and Wind Value Pack | West Marine

there may be 100-300 price fluctuation, but they are all priced in the same general range.

I am not saying this would work on a sailboat, or is comparable, or is waterproof, its just an example of wind, and an LCD display.
Amazon.com : AcuRite 01036 8-Inch Pro Color Digital Weather Station with PC Connect : Outdoor Thermometers : Furniture & [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41nx%[email protected]@[email protected]@41nx%2BC0pKzL

I cannot believe for a second that a masthead sensor is hard to make, or design. They have been out for many many years. Its all old tech. same with a depth finder, and knot log. You can buy the depthfiner and knot log for about $150. so why would a bundle with that tiny screen be $1400? Why would they all charge about the same price? 
Your not seeing a pattern here?
Really?


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

You have repeatedly accused the marine electronics industry of illegal price fixing.



UnionPacific said:


> ...Electronics are priced alike because they are all price fixed...





UnionPacific said:


> here in the USA prices may be set by the manufacturer. If its not legal, then a lot of big corps, have great lawyers...


Yet you have not presented a shred of evidence of illegal collusion.

Yes, it is possible to find similar electronics from different manufacturers at similar price points. That's not collusion. They all have similar development and manufacturing costs and similar target markets, so they'll have similar prices. It's competition.

Present some hard evidence of collusion. Otherwise, I call you out as a troll.

Go ahead and put that AcuRite weather station at the top of your mast. Good luck figuring out wind direction every time your boat changes heading. Have fun manually calculating actual wind speed from the apparent wind speed that it reports.

If prices are too high and profit margins too fat, someone will eventually come out with lower cost alternatives. I know of someone who is coming to market with a dramatically lower priced electronic wind instrument. Product introduction is 6 months behind schedule and counting. It's not as easy as it looks.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> You have repeatedly accused the marine electronics industry of illegal price fixing.
> 
> Yet you have not presented a shred of evidence of illegal collusion.
> 
> ...


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=17sfxKGp9mpnSaac1ybmug&bvm=bv.74894050,d.b2U
not among manufactures, just one brand. I am not the FTC, and will not be hacking email accounts today.



> Go ahead and put that AcuRite weather station at the top of your mast.


I inserted the disclaimer because I knew someone would think that is what I was up to, suggesting to use it for sailing. Take your time and re-read.


> If prices are too high and profit margins too fat, someone will eventually come out with lower cost alternatives. I know of someone who is coming to market with a dramatically lower priced electronic wind instrument. Product introduction is 6 months behind schedule and counting. It's not as easy as it looks.


What is the name of this company? Any links?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

UnionPacific said:


> there may be 100-300 price fluctuation, but they are all priced in the same general range.


Market forces at work.



TakeFive said:


> Otherwise, I call you out as a troll.


... or a conspiracy theorist?

The biggest counter to accusations of wide-spread conspiracy whether it is price-fixing, the CIA shooting Kennedy, or NASA faking the moon landing is the underlying assumption that large numbers of people can keep a secret.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> Market forces at work.
> 
> ... or a conspiracy theorist?
> 
> The biggest counter to accusations of wide-spread conspiracy whether it is price-fixing, the CIA shooting Kennedy, or NASA faking the moon landing is the underlying assumption that large numbers of people can keep a secret.


What the LCD class-action settlement means for you - Jul. 16, 2012
they can, but not for ever.

Your looking at big silly conspiracies. Look at something more like USA keeping people outside USA so they can torture them.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> Who says the monitor needs to be waterproof?


You're the one who compared a $250 monitor to a waterproof, full-daylight readable chart plotter. If you compare apples to apples, then you cannot find a monitor that is comparable to the chart plotter for $250.

What you seem to be doing is comparing apples to oranges, and then complaining because they don't taste the same.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> I cannot believe for a second that a masthead sensor is hard to make, or design.


Then make one and sell it for a fraction of what all the marine vendors are selling theirs for. You'll make a fortune. You'll be rich beyond the dreams of avarice. What's stopping you?

Oh yeah. Reality. Darn! That thing always gets in the way, doesn't it? Still, I prefer reality to the conspiracy-theory dream world you seem to be currently inhabiting (at least, as concerns this particular topic).


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I did build my own wind instrument using a Davis anenometer. These are primarily designed for use on houses, but Davis used to sell a marine system that used them. Their anenometer is approximately $125.

There are differences compared to a marine anenometer. The Davis works pretty well when heeling, but is not quite as well balanced an accurate as the high end instruments from Raymarine, NKE, Garmin, and others. It has about a 15 degree dead zone where it can't measure the wind angle. I have that facing directly ahead, which is fine for sailing but does mean that I can't have the boat's autopilot follow a wind angle directly ahead while putting up the sails. Davis uses a stopless potentiometer for measuring wind direction and the dead zone is where the potentiometer's slider is between the highest and lowest resistance.. The marine ones use a different method for detecting wind direction (measuring inductance between 3 coils) that has lower friction, will last longer, and has higher resolution. It is also less sensitive to debris.

$125 didn't pay for my entire system, that just covered what is at the masthead. I used a Netduino (Netduino :: home) to interface it to the NMEA 0183 network on my boat. The rest of the electronics cost about $100 (Netduino, 12V->7V power supply, waterproof enclosure, wiring). I spent at least 10 hours writing the code. I didn't build a display since I just send the information on to my Raymarine network.

Overall I'm very happy with the price/performance of my system, but I don't think it is at all equivalent to a higher end system.

Raymarine actually sells multiple wind instruments. They have a system for around $400 (including all electronics and display) that is designed for power boats that has similar limitations to the Davis. Their higher end system (designed for sailboats) costs about twice as much but has a much better instrument.

UnionPacific -- You really should take a metalworking class to understand how milling works. The tiny CNC routers that you are looking at can't handle the relatively deep cuts that you would need to make a mixing elbow. It will take tons of passes to cut the smooth curves that you need for the bore (which means the runtime will be extremely long). You will be doing 4 operations (two per half) before welding them together. There is a reason that these are cast when mass produced instead of machined. If I were making a one-off it would be welded or brazed together, not machined. Machining, even with CNC, is not as simple as just drawing an object in CAD and saying "go".


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> Then make one and sell it for a fraction of what all the marine vendors are selling theirs for. You'll make a fortune. You'll be rich beyond the dreams of avarice. What's stopping you?
> 
> Oh yeah. Reality. Darn! That thing always gets in the way, doesn't it? Still, I prefer reality to the conspiracy-theory dream world you seem to be currently inhabiting (at least, as concerns this particular topic).


Sorry my efforts are being concentrated on building the perfect, inexpensive, alloy, 45' sailboat, for less then $200,000 brand new. I am still 5-10 years out.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Alex W said:


> I did build my own wind instrument using a Davis anenometer. These are primarily designed for use on houses, but Davis used to sell a marine system that used them. Their anenometer is approximately $125.
> 
> There are differences compared to a marine anenometer. The Davis works pretty well when heeling, but is not quite as well balanced an accurate as the high end instruments from Raymarine, NKE, Garmin, and others. It has about a 15 degree dead zone where it can't measure the wind angle. I have that facing directly ahead, which is fine for sailing but does mean that I can't have the boat's autopilot follow a wind angle directly ahead while putting up the sails. Davis uses a stopless potentiometer for measuring wind direction and the dead zone is where the potentiometer's slider is between the highest and lowest resistance.. The marine ones use a different method for detecting wind direction (measuring inductance between 3 coils) that has lower friction, will last longer, and has higher resolution. It is also less sensitive to debris.
> 
> ...


I admire your money saving efforts more then you know. Its great to see people innovating. I have a datamarine masthead sensor now, I wonder if I can reuse that in the same manner your using yours. Did you do a writeup of the build?


> UnionPacific -- You really should take a metalworking class to understand how milling works. The tiny CNC routers that you are looking at can't handle the relatively deep cuts that you would need to make a mixing elbow. It will take tons of passes to cut the smooth curves that you need for the bore (which means the runtime will be extremely long). You will be doing 4 operations (two per half) before welding them together. There is a reason that these are cast when mass produced instead of machined. If I were making a one-off it would be welded or brazed together, not machined. Machining, even with CNC, is not as simple as just drawing an object in CAD and saying "go".


Your very correct, it will be a massive chore to do with the CNC. The reality is I do not need a mixing elbow, I was just going to learn on that, and use as a spare. I would also bolt it together, not weld it. I want the CNC mill for making parts when I am in a remote location. For example if my engine needed a new rocker arm, I could get one made on my CNC before I could ever get one in the mail. Its the parts I cannot think of that I would use it for. Thou I would use it for the serpentine system for sure. Should be no issue cutting aluminum pulleys, I may add a 4 axis for that job.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

You really need to get some basics of machining. You are posting links to CNC routers and then talking about 4-axis operations that require a CNC mill. You are picking difficult items to start with.

I love machining and have made parts that are sprinkled around my boat. However I also know when it makes more sense for me to buy vs build. I can't imagine keeping my CNC mill on the boat, even my small Taig requires a minimum of 8sqft and more when you use it with flood coolant. It is not light either (it is light for a machine tool, heavy for a boat tool).

To convert an old masthead sensor you need to find documentation for how it interfaced with the base electronics. I haven't documented what I've built, it is on my to-do list but pretty low down there (mostly because I don't want to get endless emails asking for support from people who can't build something like this themselves -- which is what happens whenever I document semi-complex projects like this).


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

I should be able to measure resistance for direction, and perhaps the anemometer would be pulse rate?


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

It depends heavily on the instrument, they don't all work the same way.

The Signet instrument that came on my boat used 3 inductance coils for wind direction and measured a voltage for wind speed. They documented this in the manual, which was still online. The Davis uses pulse (speed) + resistance (direction).

If you have any experience with interfacing basic sensors to simple computers then you can probably figure out how your current masthead sensor works.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Alex W said:


> If you have any experience with interfacing basic sensors to simple computers then you can probably figure out how your current masthead sensor works.


None at all. I wasted my time in chemistry, not computer science. I am sure I could learn it quickly thou.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

one of three


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

North, are you thread drifting from homemade anemometers to battery boxes? Are those photos of your new boat? Very clean spaces! I would route those straps underneath the battery platforms if they are merely screwed in. Wood screws won’t hold the weight of an upside down battery. I would also get battery box “trays” that are acid/chemical resistant. I learned this the hard way after I had to replace the unlined trays on my old boat. (It is also an AYBC standard now too.)


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

UnionPacific said:


> What is the name of this company? Any links?


SailTimer Wind Instrument

Their device does not include a display. But I integrate all my data on a Windows tablet under OpenCPN, so this device's Bluetooth 4.0 feed will go right into the tablet.

I think Alex W gave a great summary of why marine anemometers are complicated to design and costly to purchase. It's not as easy as you think it is.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> SailTimer Wind Instrument
> 
> Their device does not include a display. But I integrate all my data on a Windows tablet under OpenCPN, to this device's Bluetooth 4.0 feed will go right into the tablet.
> 
> I think Alex W gave a great summary of why marine anemometers are complicted to design and costly to purchase. It's not as easy as you think it is.


Actually he told me exactly what I thought, two very simple sensors, two low drag bearings, and some molded plastic.

$350 is too much for a wind sensor without display. 
Its not even nema 2000.

This is not a complex instrument.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

UnionPacific said:


> Actually he told me exactly what I thought, two very simple sensors, two low drag bearings, and some molded plastic.
> 
> $350 is too much for a wind sensor without display.
> Its not even nema 2000.
> ...


Then don't buy it. You're such an expert at everything, I'm sure you made your own while half asleep today.

This one fits my NMEA 0183 system well, so I'm getting it.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> North, are you thread drifting from homemade anemometers to battery boxes? Are those photos of your new boat? Very clean spaces! I would route those straps underneath the battery platforms if they are merely screwed in. Wood screws won't hold the weight of an upside down battery. I would also get battery box "trays" that are acid/chemical resistant. I learned this the hard way after I had to replace the unlined trays on my old boat. (It is also an AYBC standard now too.)


No, not drifting. Just, I made a stupid joke earlier that my batteries are in the bilge and I think people thought I was serious.

Good idea about the straps. I'm doing some battery research today to redesign my system. Ok back to where you were.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Not at all North. I’m beginning to like your boat more and more. It is clean and things are installed in an orderly fashion – a sign of a conscientious previous owner. Don’t over think your bowsprit. Use whatever woods the boat builder used and you will be fine. My only afterthought would be to install an anchor roller at some time to keep your anchor line from fouling and potentially bending the bobstay. I may be doing a beer can race next Wednesday (or the next) at Redwood City so PM me with your slip number and perhaps we can meet in person.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> No, not drifting. Just, I made a stupid joke earlier that my batteries are in the bilge and I think people thought I was serious.
> 
> Good idea about the straps. I'm doing some battery research today to redesign my system. Ok back to where you were.


whats wrong with batteries in the bilge? As long as you have a big bilge anyway.



> Then don't buy it. You're such an expert at everything, I'm sure you made your own while half asleep today.


To build one is not a big deal. If I still had my lab setup, I would do it to prove a point. I would make the vanes and cups of poured epoxy with glass fiber..
for the rod and body I would just buy a few standard CF rods. Interfacing is where I would come short, But I will be learning this at the same time I am building my CNC mill.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

UnionPacific said:


> ...To build one is not a big deal. If I still had my lab setup, I would do it to prove a point. I would make the vanes and cups of poured epoxy with glass fiber..


From my discussions with the designers, it is very difficult to come up with a cup design that is accurate when the boat is heeling. A lot of aerodynamic modeling, prototyping, and testing went into that. And for sailboats, heeling is important, since they tend to heel when there is wind to measure. 

Anyone can cobble together something crude, or buy a cheap handheld or one of the cheap iPhone propeller tops. But a quality product takes time, effort, and money. You don't seem to appreciate the importance of that.

To a certain extent, I don't either. That's why I use a $200 tablet as a chartplotter instead of a turnkey system. But I recognize what I give up in terms of weatherability and reliability. You seem to think that your cheap homemade options are equal in quality to the good stuff. That's your right, but do so at your own peril.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

If they found the center of effort, mounted it on a gimbal, added a weight inside the balanced housing, then the unit could stay parallel to the ground even when the boat healed  I would use a small handheld unit, but even I know wind is faster aloft then at deck level.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

UP-
Maybe you've seen the movie "A Beautiful Mind" about a mathematician going crazy? In any case, go read the book it was based on. In truth, he was famous at "game theory" and as I recall, he was the man who proved the Four Corners theorem, which demonstrates how four gas stations, on the four corners of the same intersection, don't need to collude at all, but will need to sell their product at more or less the exact same price, in order for them to all make the best profit.

The same "four corners" game explains how and why electronics manufacturers don't need or want to undercut each other on similar products. It would only kill all of their profits. No collusion needed, just good marketing skills.

Defender used to be famous for obtaining and selling gray market goods, which could be sold much cheaper than "proper" franchised sales. Of course, there was often no warranty or no US warranty that way. But that's how prices get undercut. The same product, without any warranty, isn't the same product, is it?

And you'd also find that after years of "Fifth Avenue" camera and electronic stores ripping off tourists, NYC passed laws making it illegal for any merchant to sell anything about a manufacturer's advertised retail list price (MSRP). Even the car dealers can't and won't sell above list price on limited edition cars, instead they add a "value package" of some other kind. NYC isn't the only place in the nation where it is illegal to sell over MSRP, and some manufacturers have responded to that by simply not having an MSRP at all.

As to why an iPad costs the same thing no matter where or how you buy it...I have no idea how some vendors make that happen. Quite probably by their distribution agreements, or other legal means.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> From my discussions with the designers, it is very difficult to come up with a cup design that is accurate when the boat is heeling. A lot of aerodynamic modeling, prototyping, and testing went into that. And for sailboats, heeling is important, since they tend to heel when there is wind to measure.
> 
> Anyone can cobble together something crude, or buy a cheap handheld or one of the cheap iPhone propeller tops. But a quality product takes time, effort, and money. You don't seem to appreciate the importance of that.
> 
> To a certain extent, I don't either. That's why I use a $200 tablet as a chartplotter instead of a turnkey system. But I recognize what I give up in terms of weatherability and reliability. You seem to think that your cheap homemade options are equal in quality to the good stuff. That's your right, but do so at your own peril.


You are feeding him again!!!!!!!!!!


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Quit calling Union Pacific a troll. He's not trolling. I can guarantee he isn't trying to just mess with you guys, it's just that he want to do things a different way. The trolls on this thread are the people calling people names. I'm so sick of all these self righteous people on here that insist that their way is the only way. UP has ideas, so stop YOUR constant trolling by calling people names. What do you think that adds to anything? Maybe listen to him, he's sailed single handed farther than most of you ever will.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> Maybe listen to him, he's sailed single handed farther than most of you ever will.


I believe that 'fact' exists only in your imagination...


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

You believe that over 50% of the posters here have single handed more than 1500 miles in a single cruise? Starting from Upstate New York in winter no less. I'll bet it's closer to 5% or less. 

Regardless what is to be gained by trashing his ideas and calling him a troll. I don't know whether he can build anything, but he thinks he can so why stifle creativity?


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

northoceanbeach, this will explain a lot for you


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> northoceanbeach said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe listen to him, he's sailed single handed farther than most of you ever will.
> ...


I suspect northoceanbeach isn't in a position to assess the relative experience, on and off the water, of those he is comparing to anyone else.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> You believe that over 50% of the posters here have single handed more than 1500 miles in a single cruise? Starting from Upstate New York in winter no less. I'll bet it's closer to 5% or less.


I'm mystified where you've gotten the impression his trip down the coast has been done alone. I see no indication that he's not been accompanied by his wife the entire way, as the word "We" is used routinely in their blog, and she posts entries on occasion... They even brought along extra crew for the first leg of the trip down to Norfolk or thereabouts, it seems...

And, while I know all too well that mid-November on the Hudson River can easily _FEEL_ like winter, technically, it's really not...  Seems they were somewhere well down the ICW in North Carolina by the onset of winter, at least according to the calendar...

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the validity of his claims that he could easily duplicate Harken products for a mere fraction of their cost, or that price fixing is rampant throughout the marine electronics industry...


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> I'm mystified where you've gotten the impression his trip down the coast has been done alone. I see no indication that he's not been accompanied by his wife the entire way, as the word "We" is used routinely in their blog, and she posts entries on occasion... They even brought along extra crew for the first leg of the trip down to Norfolk or thereabouts, it seems...
> 
> And, while I know all too well that mid-November on the Hudson River can easily _FEEL_ like winter, technically, it's really not...  Seems they were somewhere well down the ICW in North Carolina by the onset of winter, at least according to the calendar...
> 
> Of course, none of this has anything to do with the validity of his claims that he could easily duplicate Harken products for a mere fraction of their cost, or that price fixing is rampant throughout the marine electronics industry...


My wife was taught safety, not sailing, she knew how to drop sails, fire the engine, and pick me out of the water. Her sister, our extra crew, spent 3 days below deck puking. So yeah, basically single handed, except I had someone to stand watch a few hours a day. The same day I bought the boat I brought it home single handed. 



over 300 miles, solo, having never sailed before. Give us another year, then you can watch me fly. In the mean time I will try to get a CNC mill, and make a few things.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

mid-november on hudson river IS winter. 
btdt. 
for many years, every thanksgiving , sailing with our uncle in his antique and registered as a treasure, nationally, gaff rigged sloop out of the catskill river.
on th e farm , eating apples fresh from tree and trying to ride a triumph 650 bonneville on the snow encrusted roads. 
walking out of brighthome( great grandparents', then grandparents' home in hudson, ny), on rte 66, just outside of hudson, the town, and trying to stand on slick ice on roadways. not winter? spend the night out in the weather.. it is bonafide fur wearing weather. 
one is allowed to call Thanksgiving in upstate NY--W I N T E R
try sailing then in tee shirt an shorts then say aint winter....
just because the gods of calandars say it isnt doesnt mean it isnt..lol is all relative


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

zeehag said:


> mid-november on hudson river IS winter.
> btdt.


great point.
S/V Union Pacific : Day 3, snowy owl.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> Sorry my efforts are being concentrated on...


Yes, of course. What a surprise. There's always some excuse, isn't there?


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

TakeFive said:


> SailTimer Wind Instrument
> 
> Their device does not include a display. But I integrate all my data on a Windows tablet under OpenCPN, so this device's Bluetooth 4.0 feed will go right into the tablet.


Earlier versions of this companies system used the same Davis anenometer that I used for my home-made system. It's interesting to see that they are moving on to building their own.

I'm not sure about the accuracy with making it vertical from the top of the mast vs moving it forward as everyone else does. Having it positioned forward gets it out of the turbulence spilling upwards from the top of the jib, which is important for heading accuracy.

NMEA 0183 over WiFi means that it won't work with most marine networked systems, which is an interesting choice.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Alex W said:


> Earlier versions of this companies system used the same Davis anenometer that I used for my home-made system. It's interesting to see that they are moving on to building their own.
> 
> I'm not sure about the accuracy with making it vertical from the top of the mast vs moving it forward as everyone else does. Having it positioned forward gets it out of the turbulence spilling upwards from the top of the jib, which is important for heading accuracy.
> 
> NMEA 0183 over WiFi means that it won't work with most marine networked systems, which is an interesting choice.


With your micro computer skills, can you interface the Davis with any analog wind direction gauge on the market?


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

northoceanbeach said:


> Quit calling Union Pacific a troll. He's not trolling. I can guarantee he isn't trying to just mess with you guys, it's just that he want to do things a different way.


It is great to want to do things a different way. I've been doing things "a different way" for a long time (mostly in cycling, because I have far too much to learn about sailing before I'm ready to have strong opinions are where things are done incorrectly).

However you need to first do the different way, then report on it. Union Pacific is taking the route of announcing to the world that their way is wrong and that he has a better way, but he has no proof that his better way works.

Union Pacific has no experience with machining (he has said as much on here), knows little about materials, and claims that he can make a Harken Black Magic block for $25 with a $500 CNC router (which he keeps calling a mill, but it is not). Without even the smallest result to prove that this is possible this is coming off as trolling.

I've tried to be helpful in this thread by explaining both why the machines that he is interested in won't make what he wants and by explaining why marine anenometers are harder to make than they appear. He clearly isn't reading those posts either.

I wish him the best of luck in making copies of Harken Black Magic blocks and $50 anenometers. I hope that he comes back in a year or two and posts the results on the "low buck project thread" that bljones started years ago. In the meantime he has nothing to report on.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Alex W said:


> Union Pacific has no experience with machining (he has said as much on here), knows little about materials, and claims that he can make a Harken Black Magic block for $25 with a $500 CNC router (which he keeps calling a mill, but it is not).


The designers are calling it a mill, not a router. I don't go around calling the Chevy Tahoe a pickup, because the designers have called it an SUV, even thou under the body is a pickup chassis. A rose by any other name....



> Shapeoko 2 is a simple, low cost, open source 3D Carving (CNC milling) machine kit that can be built over a weekend.
> 
> You can use Shapeoko to carve materials such as wood, plastic, and aluminum.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Shapeoko 2 is a CNC router. The material stays in place and the cutter is moved around on it. A CNC mill moves the material on the X/Y plane and keeps the head stationary. This allows for a much more rigid connection between the head and material, which allows for far greater precision. It also limits Y travels and makes the machine heavier. When cutting with an end mill there is a high side load going into the cutter. You need great stiffness to make a precision cut, and a lightweight carriage rolling around on ball bearings and held in place by belts doesn't achieve that.

The Shapeoko 2 FAQ also shows you right on their webpage that the greatest accuracy that you can expect from the machine is 0.003 to 0.005" (about 0.1mm). Good luck making a bearing race with that. This is the best possible result, which means cutting a soft material like machineable wax. They use 1/8" diameter end mills, which will have measurable deflection even cutting soft 6061 aluminum.

A couple of hours with a good textbook or even a little time with a milling machine will make these differences clear. The fact that their website has almost no demos with metal should make it clear that the machine won't do what you want.

CNC routers are great, they just are a terrible tool for making a block or a mixing elbow. They are the ideal tool for making precision plywood panels for cabinets, rigid wood dinghies, or foam cores for rudders and centerboards.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> With those kind of skills, why not go for it then, start a cottage industry that would knock Harken, Schaefer, Ronstan, even Garhauer off their high horses? Word of mouth that you are producing the equivalent of Harken Black Magic for 1/10th the price would spread through the sailing world like wildfire, instantly negating the 40 years Harken has put into marketing, advertising, boat shows, and all those other silly expenses beyond simple production...
> 
> Hell, after a year or two, you should be able to cruise for the rest of your life on a $5K/month budget, instead of shooting for the $500/month mark...
> 
> I wouldn't bother with the roller furling corner of the market, however... We already know that Brent makes furlers "far superior" to anything else out there, with nothing more than materials he recycles from dumpsters...


Okay - this is funny. Well done Jon.

Carry on you monkey-beaters.


----------



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Alex W said:


> Shapeoko 2 is a CNC router. The material stays in place and the cutter is moved around on it. A CNC mill moves the material on the X/Y plane and keeps the head stationary. This allows for a much more rigid connection between the head and material, which allows for far greater precision. It also limits Y travels and makes the machine heavier. When cutting with an end mill there is a high side load going into the cutter. You need great stiffness to make a precision cut, and a lightweight carriage rolling around on ball bearings and held in place by belts doesn't achieve that.
> 
> The Shapeoko 2 FAQ also shows you right on their webpage that the greatest accuracy that you can expect from the machine is 0.003 to 0.005" (about 0.1mm). Good luck making a bearing race with that. This is the best possible result, which means cutting a soft material like machineable wax. They use 1/8" diameter end mills, which will have measurable deflection even cutting soft 6061 aluminum.
> 
> ...


sheaves and bearings are available for a very low cost in every size, and material you could ever want. I would simply make the housing, and bolt in the sheave and bearing.

And I apologize, I am not the type of person who accepts, it can't be done, in areas that can be experimented. I have been hearing it can't be done in chem for years, and all the time, it is being done. Its the ones who think they know better, and can do better, who innovate. I will buy this "router" It will be not only fun, but also a learning experience. I hope it teaches me patience, computer science skills, innovative engeneering, just like my childhood erector sets did. It will be a good bridge until someone makes the first aluminum 3D printer for a mas market.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

UnionPacific said:


> And I apologize, I am not the type of person who accepts, it can't be done, in areas that can be experimented.


No one has said "it can't be done". They've said "you don't know what you are talking about, and here are some things to help you get started".

You don't understand the difference.

I'm done feeding the troll. Someone else can take over.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Jon, you dodged your challenge, by trying to divert whether november is winter in New York. Prove me wrong if you are going to disagree that so many people do what UP did.

I don't even see why it bothers anyone, I know nothing about CNC, so I can't say whether UP's ideas will work, but why does it bother you guys so much that he wants to try? It doesn't hurt anyone, at worst he fails. It's not a big deal.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

denverd0n said:


> You're the one who compared a $250 monitor to a waterproof, full-daylight readable chart plotter. If you compare apples to apples, then you cannot find a monitor that is comparable to the chart plotter for $250.
> 
> What you seem to be doing is comparing apples to oranges, and then complaining because they don't taste the same.


15" waterproof touch screen monitor,lcd touch screen,vga monitor-in LCD Monitors from Electronics on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

It is 280 so it is a bit more than he stated. Add a small 12 volt powered computer and I think you could be in business with Open CPN and a $35 GPS puck.


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## Brewgyver (Dec 31, 2011)

UnionPacific said:


> Sorry, its called a disagreement. I am glad you do not agree with me, however saying "I'm right, your wrong, you jerk" does not mean that is true either.
> 
> I have given you a great example, I will extrapolate more.
> 
> ...


OK, lets call those apples.


UnionPacific said:


> I am not saying this would work on a sailboat, or is comparable, or is waterproof, its just an example of wind, and an LCD display.
> Amazon.com : AcuRite 01036 8-Inch Pro Color Digital Weather Station with PC Connect : Outdoor Thermometers : Furniture & Decor


And those would be oranges. To put the metaphor in cotext, they would be oranges that were picked too early, then sat unrefrigerated for several weeks before being put on the shelf.


UnionPacific said:


> I cannot believe for a second that a masthead sensor is hard to make, or design. They have been out for many many years. Its all old tech. same with a depth finder, and knot log. You can buy the depthfiner and knot log for about $150. so why would a bundle with that tiny screen be $1400? Why would they all charge about the same price?
> Your not seeing a pattern here?
> Really?


The pattern I see is that you don't have much of a clue what this system actually does. Not to mention, a "100 to 300 dollar price fluctuation" is a HUGE variation on a $1,400 item. If WM, or anybody else, has a $1,400 item marked down to $1,100, they're likely selling it at a loss.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> 15" waterproof touch screen monitor,lcd touch screen,vga monitor-in LCD Monitors from Electronics on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
> 
> It is 280 so it is a bit more than he stated. Add a small 12 volt powered computer and I think you could be in business with Open CPN and a $35 GPS puck.


It isn't daylight viewable, it isn't waterproof (to any accepted standard), it can't tolerate condensation, it isn't tested to withstand vibration, and it doesn't have a warranty. I didn't bother to check, but I doubt the other specs are similar to what you would expect from someone like Raymarine either.

All in all it is a vastly inferior product that what you would expect in a commercial system. It may be possible to build something out of this monitor but it wouldn't have the reliability needed for a marine system.


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## jfurlong (Apr 16, 2010)

sometimes it's just marketing. I met a mfg sales rep. from a company that makes tape, sandpaper, adhesives, etc., that told me that the same items are packaged and priced three different ways for the automotive, marine and aviation markets, with the pricing marked up accordingly. Granted, this was pre-internet days and may no longer be the case.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

jfurlong said:


> sometimes it's just marketing. I met a mfg sales rep. from a company that makes tape, sandpaper, adhesives, etc., that told me that the same items are packaged and priced three different ways for the automotive, marine and aviation markets, with the pricing marked up accordingly. Granted, this was pre-internet days and may no longer be the case.


Also like the difference in price between Tohatsu, Nissan and Mercury outboards. Or those giant bags of generic fruit-loops on the bottom shelf of the cereal aisle.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

zeehag-
"mid-november on hudson river IS winter. "
Ah, no. Winter begins with the winter solstice, which is something like December 21st this year. And around that time every year.

One might point out that you have fled to a much warmer place than upstate NY, where mid-November is very definitely not considered to be winter by the natives. Cold, yes. Puts apples in your cheeks and cider on your table, but it ain't _winter _yet. Especially on the Hudson, which rarely will be frozen over for Thanksgiving. When it freezes over, that's winter too.

*paul-*
He who believes anonymous Shenzhen goods on Alibaba are the same as the prime brand name products they are made to look like? Is often in for a rude surprise after ordering them. 
I couldn't resist and ordered one of those $10 four-digit (3-1/2) digital voltmeter displays a while back, figuring the domestic prime products are $60 so wtf. WTF indeed, as six months later the plastic filter that forms the front of the display (and greatly affects the contrast) literally had warped and melted from being exposed to sunlight. Ooops. "But it looks and says...!" 
No doubt some things are vastly overpriced. As Lily Tomlin's switchboard operator (character) said "Because we're the phone company and we just don't give a damn!" There is profiteering and outright thievery going on all the time. Sometimes, from the knock-off mills on Alibaba, who has been in the press repeatedly for trying to eliminate outright counterfeits and other major problems.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> zeehag-
> "mid-november on hudson river IS winter. "
> Ah, no. Winter begins with the winter solstice, which is something like December 21st this year. And around that time every year.


Leaving Newport in January is winter.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Brewgyver said:


> The pattern I see is that you don't have much of a clue what this system actually does. Not to mention, a "100 to 300 dollar price fluctuation" is a HUGE variation on a $1,400 item. If WM, or anybody else, has a $1,400 item marked down to $1,100, they're likely selling it at a loss.


Well I doubt that, with corperate incentives and advertising allowances I would be surprised as I don't think West Marine would agree to carry a product that did not have a good margin. I think the lowest margin they would accept (going by other retail I have been involved in) is in the range of 30% and if the original price is 1400 that would give them around 420 in mark up. so they would not loose money till it got under a grand. By the way the last retail I worked in we ran a minimum of a 75% mark up so 30% would be very low. But we were selling made in china chotskies, oh wait that is what West Marine sells.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

paul, you can't really compare margins and markups across different industries. 

In the 70's and early 80's, when Crazy Eddie was disrupting the electronics industry, he could sell a SONY Trinitron (which was a radically different color tv technology and visibly different image from anyone else's product) for 60% of MSRP and still make a profit.

That's a 40% discount. Now go try to buy a new car, of any make, at 40% off the sticker price. Ain't gonna happen.

But go to a supermarket, where the industry also claims to live on a lean 1-2% margin, and you can often find things at 40% off and even 50% off. Why don't the numbers add up?

Or, why does the cell phone industry insist that a top-tier phone costs them $600 and must be subsidized, when other quiet voices have priced it out as a $200 product?

Numbers can be deceiving, and the margins and incentives and real profits are quite often not as they are reported or claimed.

If West Marine really was making a net profit of only 1%, they could close tomorrow, put all the money in a CD or treasury note, and double their return. And yet, somehow, they aren't closing out. Could it be that 1% just isn't all it seems to be? Either at West, OR at the supermarket?


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

miatapaul said:


> Well I doubt that, with corperate incentives and advertising allowances I would be surprised as I don't think West Marine would agree to carry a product that did not have a good margin. I think the lowest margin they would accept (going by other retail I have been involved in) is in the range of 30% and if the original price is 1400 that would give them around 420 in mark up. so they would not loose money till it got under a grand. By the way the last retail I worked in we ran a minimum of a 75% mark up so 30% would be very low. But we were selling made in china chotskies, oh wait that is what West Marine sells.


I have seen a WM prce before, AKA what they paid for an item. It was an LED light fixture, It was marked up 300%. The is not a chartplotter, but yeah, I doubt they would sell something without a good sized mark-up.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> Jon, you dodged your challenge, by trying to divert whether november is winter in New York. Prove me wrong if you are going to disagree that so many people do what UP did.


You and I must have a radically dissimilar idea of what constitutes "singlehanded sailing"... 



hellosailor said:


> zeehag-
> "mid-november on hudson river IS winter. "
> Ah, no. Winter begins with the winter solstice, which is something like December 21st this year. And around that time every year.
> 
> One might point out that you have fled to a much warmer place than upstate NY, where mid-November is very definitely not considered to be winter by the natives. Cold, yes. Puts apples in your cheeks and cider on your table, but it ain't _winter _yet. Especially on the Hudson, which rarely will be frozen over for Thanksgiving. When it freezes over, that's winter too.


Not to mention, by the time Thanksgiving rolled around, UP was already somewhere around the southern end of Chesapeake Bay...


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

UnionPacific said:


> I have seen a WM prce before, AKA what they paid for an item. It was an LED light fixture, It was marked up 300%. The is not a chartplotter, but yeah, I doubt they would sell something without a good sized mark-up.


The price above what they paid is only part of the equation. You also need to know the entire COGS (cost of goods sold) which is much more complicated and varies between companies. West has huge costs compared to an online store for instance because they have to pay for the stores, the employees, utilities, inventory, shrinkage, ect... While an online retailer these days only has to deal with marketing since many of their products are drop shipped.

The downside is West has to be more expensive, the up side is they can get it to you in a few minutes instead of a couple of days. It doesn't surprise me that West's net margin is relatively low. It's an expensive store with high inventory costs and low sales turnover. What does surprise me, at least a little, is that they can afford to stay in business.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Gaurhauer was mentioned once. The OP may want to check out their stuff. They will make chain plates to order and will work with you for semi-custom stuff.

They have been around for a long time and make good stuff.
It is not racing light but it is typically half the price.

I recommend to a client to buy a couple rail cleats from them but he liked the looks of the schafer better even though they were double the price.

Go figure.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

I have probably dropped 6 or 7 grand at WM. very nice to see, feel things before you buy them. I wear a lot of WM clothing. The markup on clothing is probably 800%, lol. they make money. No doubt.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> I have probably dropped 6 or 7 grand at WM. very nice to see, feel things before you buy them. I wear a lot of WM clothing. The markup on clothing is probably 800%, lol. they make money. No doubt.


For the love of monkeys, then...quit being a freakin' dolt!

Someone who cries "conspiracy" then buys their stuff at WM? Good lord.

FAIL.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> For the love of monkeys, then...quit being a freakin' dolt!
> 
> Someone who cries "conspiracy" then buys their stuff at WM? Good lord.
> 
> FAIL.


Not everything at WM is overpriced. If I am only going to save a few bucks getting it online, then I don't bother.
A good example is DR LED conversion lights. They are $2 cheaper online, and I only bought two of them. Why bother then? As for the clothing, It may exist online, but how do I try it on? lol.

Other times I wait for a sale. I got my garmin 541s at WM on sale 6 years ago.
Sometimes I just go there and drool over the overpriced junk. Its a nice place.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> Not everything at WM is overpriced. If I am only going to save a few bucks getting it online, then I don't bother.
> A good example is DR LED conversion lights. They are $2 cheaper online, and I only bought two of them. Why bother then? As for the clothing, It may exist online, but how do I try it on? lol.
> 
> Other times I wait for a sale. I got my garmin 541s at WM on sale 6 years ago.
> Sometimes I just go there and drool over the overpriced junk. Its a nice place.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

*its a loose definition for sure, but a lady that has never sailed and gets a quick lesson along the way, and another lady who quits. I just feel like UP was in essence singlehanding. WHen my girlfriend came along, the wind picked up, and she hid in the cabin. I was singlehanding. *


JonEisberg said:


> You and I must have a radically dissimilar idea of what constitutes "singlehanded sailing"...
> 
> Not to mention, by the time Thanksgiving rolled around, UP was already somewhere around the southern end of Chesapeake Bay...


*splitting hairs. For all purposes not the easiest time to sail. You stoll said most people on sailnet have done what he did or more. Admit you were wrong. Is it that hard?*


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I think I also might be missing something. What I am getting out of this dialog is UP wants to do somethin the majority thinks can't be done. But what he wants to do is try to make himself some boat parts cheaply. Since you guys think he can't do it, you have decided to treat him like garbage and ignore the fact that he is a fellow sailor, but also a real person with feelings behind the computer. Why? He's not a Christian scientist experimenting with prayer on his dying infant and lives are at stake. It's boat parts. 

What did I miss?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> What did I miss?


He's being treated like a sailor. This isn't tea and crumpets. It's SN. You can't just throw down without facts. Sailors are too smart for that.

If UP is really that hurt he can say so himself. Chill bro.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

That's not how any sailors I have met in real life talk to people on the docks they don't know. Never seen it happen. In real life I find most sailors either standoffish or extremely helpful. Never combative.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> That's not how any sailors I have met in real life talk to people *on the docks* they don't know. Never seen it happen. In real life I find most sailors either standoffish or extremely helpful. Never combative.


That's the docks.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Should we not use the same etiquette we would use in real life online?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> Should we not use the same etiquette we would use in real life online?


Yes. But in a bar. Not a knitting circle. UP can (should) take care of himself. Lighten up NOB.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Buying from West Marine is like buying anywhere else in that you have to go out and compare prices. I have found some great deals from WM but also gag on some of their prices....the same as everywhere else. Just shop elsewhere for the grossly overpriced things. Given similar prices between WM and some online vendor, I'll choose WM. Having a shoreside WM has saved my butt more than once when stuff craps out unexpectedly. I appreciate the fact that they place their stores around ports. If they are 5-10% higher and offer this kind of convenience in return, I'm good with that. I look at it as what you get for your money. You also get free shipping to a store, a significant savings when it comes to heavy stuff or things like SOLAS flares, etc. That's worth something to me.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

northoceanbeach said:


> That's not how any sailors I have met in real life talk to people on the docks they don't know. Never seen it happen. In real life I find most sailors either standoffish or extremely helpful. Never combative.


I'm not sure why you have such a woody for this guy. The fact is, he has shown some pretty condescending behavior, and acted like a know it all in areas where he demonstrates that he has little knowledge. You reap what you sow, especially on an Internet message board.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> its a loose definition for sure, but a lady that has never sailed and gets a quick lesson along the way, and another lady who quits. I just feel like UP was in essence singlehanding. WHen my girlfriend came along, the wind picked up, and she hid in the cabin. I was singlehanding.
> 
> splitting hairs. For all purposes not the easiest time to sail. *You stoll said most people on sailnet have done what he did or more. * Admit you were wrong. Is it that hard?


Another 'fact' that would seem to exist only in your imagination... 

Re-read posts #75 and 79... I am not asserting most here have done longer trips or whatever, but rather that I simply do not believe he has made that trip down the coast "singlehanded"...

The fact that his wife might be less experienced is irrelevant. He admits she stood watches for a couple of hours a day. Presumably, she is capable of steering the boat under power on the ICW, preparing meals underway, and assisting with lines when docking, and so on... If you think that still constitutes a solo trip down the East coast, well... then we'll just have to agree to disagree on our definition of the term...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Another 'fact' that would seem to exist only in your imagination...
> 
> Re-read posts #75 and 79... I am not asserting most here have done longer trips or whatever, but rather that I simply do not believe he has made that trip down the coast "singlehanded"...
> 
> The fact that his wife might be less experienced is irrelevant. He admits she stood watches for a couple of hours a day. Presumably, she is capable of steering the boat under power on the ICW, preparing meals underway, and assisting with lines when docking, and so on... If you think that still constitutes a solo trip down the East coast, well... then we'll just have to agree to disagree on our definition of the term...


To reinforce what Jon said, the other piece of this is that UP is establishing a reputation of playing loose with the facts. It undermines all of his other conspiracy theories such as price fixing, etc.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> I believe that 'fact' exists only in your imagination...


Fine. You guys and UP can work it out yourselves. I'm not really interested in making blocks anyways. I still think its impressive that he bought a boat, sailed it 300 miles home, then took it to Florida in winter alone.

My point is, and Jon continues to dance around what he said above, is that when you are asking for sailing advice, the people that have been out thre and done it are the ones you want to ask, not the ones that have read about it in a book.

I'm still just surly. I'll get over it.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

P.T. Barnum explained it best.

As a sailmaker, the sucker (excuse me), the client was sized up the moment he or she opened their mouth as to how much we'd get them to pay if they didn't get a pre-arranged quote.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> *its a loose definition for sure, but a lady that has never sailed and gets a quick lesson along the way, and another lady who quits. I just feel like UP was in essence singlehanding. WHen my girlfriend came along, the wind picked up, and she hid in the cabin. I was singlehanding. *
> 
> *splitting hairs. For all purposes not the easiest time to sail. You stoll said most people on sailnet have done what he did or more. Admit you were wrong. Is it that hard?*


My wife has the below deck syndrome too. She and the dogs hide.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

northoceanbeach said:


> My point is, and Jon continues to dance around what he said above, is that when you are asking for sailing advice, the people that have been out thre and done it are the ones you want to ask, not the ones that have read about it in a book.


The people whose input you are blowing off have a lot of experience. Professional delivery skippers, experienced racers, long-term cruisers, and serious weekend sailors who take their avocation seriously.

There are also people who know what they know and know what they don't know. When they weigh in it is because they know what they are talking about. You seem to be aligning yourself with the trolls and 'drips under pressure' and 'cut and pasters' which is your choice.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I don't feel like I am blowing anyone's advice off. I do probably cherry pick sometimes though. Like, ask a question that I want a specific answer to and look for those answers. 

How am I supposed to know who has done what? But at the end of the day, it's my boat and my choice, just like you are free do to as you please to Auspicious, I do too. What is a cut and paster? I also take the consensus and go off that. You can't be sure people know what they are talking about. Case in point. I got into a lengthy discussion about alternators and gel batteries the other day. The people I was talking to said I would have to get an expensive three stage regulator to use my gels. But I called the dealer, service center and he looked up which alternator I have and told me it has a built in regulator safe to use with gels that keeps the voltage around 13.6. Shouldn't I trust the dealer?

I've just got too much going on at once and I expect too much perfection AND I just did the "getting ready process" for a different boat so to now have to do it all over again? I don't know. It's fine. Leave me out if it. I was only curious about prices since I have a lot I have to by and sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised at the cost and sometimes not.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> I still think its impressive that he bought a boat, sailed it 300 miles home, then took it to Florida in winter alone.


You're certainly free to believe what you want to believe, but their blog contains considerable evidence - both in words, and photographs - that he did not take that boat to Florida _ALONE_...



northoceanbeach said:


> My point is, and Jon continues to dance around what he said above...


I'm not dancing around anything, but simply making an obviously futile attempt to convince you I have not said what you _imagine_ I've said... This is one of the silliest rabbit holes I've gone down in quite some time, definitely one of those instances where Sailnet could benefit from having a Reading Comprehension Tutor on standby...


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

northoceanbeach said:


> Like, ask a question that I want a specific answer to and look for those answers.


If you are only interested in one particular answer why bother asking the question? Some deep seated need for validation? Buyer's remorse?



northoceanbeach said:


> How am I supposed to know who has done what?


Read. Ask. Pay attention.

So far I don't think you're doing a good job at sorting the wheat from the chaff.

Your battery discussion on SN and in the SN chat are a good example. You didn't like the answers you consistently received so you appear to have decided the people who spent time trying to answer your questions have some other agenda.

Get Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual: How to Maintain, Repair, and Improve Your Boat's Essential Systems: Nigel Calder: 9780071432382: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@518qakjOpYL and read it. Learn to use Google to search SailNet. Try the SSCA Forum and Cruiser's Forum. You'll find that the answers you didn't like are in fact the answers. Look for the people that others turn to for advice. You'll find that some of them are the folks you have been blowing off.



northoceanbeach said:


> But at the end of the day, it's my boat and my choice, just like you are free do to as you please to Auspicious, I do too.


You bet. You won't have to worry about advice from me any longer because you simply are not worth the effort on my part.



northoceanbeach said:


> I got into a lengthy discussion about alternators and gel batteries the other day. The people I was talking to said I would have to get an expensive three stage regulator to use my gels. But I called the dealer, service center and he looked up which alternator I have and told me it has a built in regulator safe to use with gels that keeps the voltage around 13.6. Shouldn't I trust the dealer?


Nope. Not in this case. A dealer who can't explain the difference between an internal regulator and a three-stage regulator and the benefits of the latter for someone with the cruising plans you have espoused doesn't have a grip on the situation. Either that or 1. you didn't give him or her adequate context or 2. you didn't want to hear what you were being told and s/he just wanted to get you off the phone.

Congratulations. You have earned a spot on my rather short ignore list.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> You're certainly free to believe what you want to believe, but their blog contains considerable evidence - both in words, and photographs - that he did not take that boat to Florida _ALONE_...
> 
> I'm not dancing around anything, but simply making an obviously futile attempt to convince you I have not said what you _imagine_ I've said... This is one of the silliest rabbit holes I've gone down in quite some time, definitely one of those instances where Sailnet could benefit from having a Reading Comprehension Tutor on standby...


Thanks. I probably did interpret it wrong. We're still friends. My mistake.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> Congratulations. You have earned a spot on my rather short ignore list.


Oh my.

Don't sweat it NOB. Ausp's also referred to me as a "troll" and loudly proclaimed me too to be on his dreaded ignore list. Whatever.

When guys take themselves this seriously and can't handle disagreement, ignore is a favor. They seem to suffer from...



SVAuspicious said:


> ...Some deep seated need for validation...


There are PLENTY of great, experienced dudes around here that are extremely helpful but not nearly as tender. Just keep doing your thing.

PS - Pretty incredible photography by the way.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Did you look at my flickr? Thanks! I only just started this year. I'll have some boat picks coming, now that I've got it somewhat organized.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Corporate pricing is really pretty simple - they charge as much as they possibly can while still moving product.

That's one of the reasons why prices vary so much from store to store, even within the same company. Grocery stores seem to be the worst for variation. My wife finds the same items for $1.25 and $4.95 within a few blocks of each other.

The dart board analogy is pretty close. 

i saw an interesting interview with an Ex - Wal-Mart senior exec. He said the stuff on the ends of the aisles is their loss leader stuff. If you only shop on the ends of the aisles you get good, discount prices. They count on you also shopping IN the aisles where the prices are no better or even higher than elsewhere.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

what a witless useless thread where the backstabing is the only saving point :laugher

carry on with it guys


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Buy one of these with 20 probes and pull 7000' of wire then get it validated and you will think chart-plotters are cheep 



[URL=http://s565.photobucket.com/user/tommays/media/Broken%20mixer%20blade/2011_02100013.jpg.html]





break a mixer Y and repair it and you wont think folding props are so over priced 

Seriously i work on all kinds of machines that are made in limited numbers and the prices are fairly astounding


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