# Sail Boat Sharing clubs?



## pigs&poodles

Hi All i was wondering if anyone has any experience/ knowledge of Sail Time boat club or Chesapeake Boating Club in the Annapolis MD area. I am considering these 2 clubs vs owner ship. Any Thoughts?


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## SanderO

Years ago I wrote a business plan for full spectrum boating clubs to be sited in "seaside vacation locations." The concept was that "boating' should be a vacation leisure option. Further, the clubs would be professionally managed offering "activities" for those interested... races... raft ups... classes... as well as "merch" and food/refreshments. Club members' access would be determined by the dollar amount of their point purchase. Use/access could be scheduled, used at any club, lent to a friend of family member. Each boat would have a certain point "value".. and this would determine how much time one can use each of the boats. Each club would own, maintain, buy and sell the boats. Each club would grow in size and variety of boats to match demand.

Could not raise the start up capital.


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## Don L

When I was first starting sailing I looked at sailtime. At time you got boats in a partial day schedule, which seemed a pita. I instaed joined a local sailclub that assigned boats in 24 hour periods, and it was less expensive. So I got to sail more, longer , and sail along the learning curve faster. The other main difference is sailtime will newer boats and the club I was in I was sailing a 20 year old boat


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## capttb

One has 2 boats, a 32' Freedom and 34' Tartan, other has multiple new Bene's 22', 35' and 38' I'd prefer the one with more and newer boats.


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## pigs&poodles

SanderO said:


> Years ago I wrote a business plan for full spectrum boating clubs to be sited in "seaside vacation locations." The concept was that "boating' should be a vacation leisure option. Further, the clubs would be professionally managed offering "activities" for those interested... races... raft ups... classes... as well as "merch" and food/refreshments. Club members' access would be determined by the dollar amount of their point purchase. Use/access could be scheduled, used at any club, lent to a friend of family member. Each boat would have a certain point "value".. and this would determine how much time one can use each of the boats. Each club would own, maintain, buy and sell the boats. Each club would grow in size and variety of boats to match demand.
> 
> Could not raise the start up capital.


Your plan sounds a lot like what Sail Time advertises.


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## pigs&poodles

capttb said:


> One has 2 boats, a 32' Freedom and 34' Tartan, other has multiple new Bene's 22', 35' and 38' I'd prefer the one with more and newer boats.


They also offer a excess 11 Cat.


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## SanderO

pigs&poodles said:


> Your plan sounds a lot like what Sail Time advertises.


My plan was written in 1995.


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## 4arch

I was a member of a smaller club for a period in the mid-2000s before buying a boat. This is the way I see fractional boat club membership: 
Pros:

You are not involved in boat maintenance and cleaning. You go to the marina, load the boat, sail away, and bring it back. So long as the club is upholding their end of the maintenance and you’re bringing the boat back in one piece and on time, there’s no worries.
You are not involved in winterizing or spring commissioning. No worrying about the boat on cold, windy winter nights. No feeling like you need to go check on it when ice and snow are on the ground.
Costs are all clear up front. Membership fees may increase year over year, but there are no big surprise expenses.
Overall, it’s cheaper than owning the equivalent boat, especially if you'd be financing the purchase.
Cons:

You must be either very flexible in your availability, available often on weekdays, and/or willing to book trips way in advance to make the most of the membership fee. It can be hard for people who are limited strictly to weekending to maximize the value proposition. 
All provisions, personal effects, and sometimes linens must be schlepped to and from the boat for every sail. This is fine for daysailing but gets old after a while for longer trips or even single overnights.
Most clubs limit you to 5 or 7 consecutive nights, which is limiting if you want to cruise the northern or southern bay.
You have little to no control over how the boat is equipped and set up.


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## pigs&poodles

4arch said:


> I was a member of a smaller club for a period in the mid-2000s before buying a boat. This is the way I see fractional boat club membership:
> Pros:
> 
> You are not involved in boat maintenance and cleaning. You go to the marina, load the boat, sail away, and bring it back. So long as the club is upholding their end of the maintenance and you’re bringing the boat back in one piece and on time, there’s no worries.
> You are not involved in winterizing or spring commissioning. No worrying about the boat on cold, windy winter nights. No feeling like you need to go check on it when ice and snow are on the ground.
> Costs are all clear up front. Membership fees may increase year over year, but there are no big surprise expenses.
> Overall, it’s cheaper than owning the equivalent boat, especially if you'd be financing the purchase.
> Cons:
> 
> You must be either very flexible in your availability, available often on weekdays, and/or willing to book trips way in advance to make the most of the membership fee. It can be hard for people who are limited strictly to weekending to maximize the value proposition.
> All provisions, personal effects, and sometimes linens must be schlepped to and from the boat for every sail. This is fine for daysailing but gets old after a while for longer trips or even single overnights.
> Most clubs limit you to 5 or 7 consecutive nights, which is limiting if you want to cruise the northern or southern bay.
> You have little to no control over how the boat is equipped and set up.


Thanks for your info. I and my wife will be retiring in June so we will more then likely be sailing a lot Monday --Friday so that part won't be a problem. I sure like the idea of not having to schedule and pay for all the Spring/winter maintenance not to mention the surprises that come up. My main concern is are the boats really available or do you end up on a waiting list. Sail time advertises that only equivalent of 8 Classic memberships per boat, ( 7 sail slots per month). Plus they do list new boats in there fleet 2016 being the oldest. Chesapeake is a few thousand cheaper per year but if you can't get the boats ?


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## 4arch

pigs&poodles said:


> Thanks for your info. I and my wife will be retiring in June so we will more then likely be sailing a lot Monday --Friday so that part won't be a problem. I sure like the idea of not having to schedule and pay for all the Spring/winter maintenance not to mention the surprises that come up. My main concern is are the boats really available or do you end up on a waiting list. Sail time advertises that only equivalent of 8 Classic memberships per boat, ( 7 sail slots per month). Plus they do list new boats in there fleet 2016 being the oldest. Chesapeake is a few thousand cheaper per year but if you can't get the boats ?


The scheduling and time allotment systems vary by club so you might want to see if the clubs you’re looking at would be willing to provide some references of current members so you can speak to them directly.

At 8 memberships per boat, that theoretically may only give you a total of about 23 sailing days and 3.25 weekends per 6 month season. There are probably members who use the boats much more and much less. There are plenty of privately owned boats that hardly ever leave the dock and see much less use but only you can decide if it’s enough.

That said, when I belonged to a club, I had a lot of flexibility and could sail on random days to fill the gaps in their schedule or snag other people’s cancellations. By doing that, I usually used more than my “share” of time. My club also was pretty proactive about getting members out on the water if they wanted to sail – even if it meant offering an upgraded or downgraded boat to get you there. I guess the club’s degree of flexibility would be something to ask the references about.


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## flee27

I don't live in the area and have no experience with these clubs specifically. Like a few others I did participate in a sailing club before purchasing my boat. At the time it was a good fit for my sailing availability.

Without a doubt there is no argument for costs. The club will be much less expensive. If all you want is hassle free sailing then the club can't be beat. Especially if your schedule is flexible with time during the week to sail. In this case you must likely will be able to sail all you want. At least this was the case in my area. Also think about if you are interested in doing any overnights. If so make sure you find out what the clubs policy is regarding overnights or extended use of the boat. 

Also like stated above your general experience will have a lot to do with how the club is structured and the attitude of the people that run it. In my case the owner was very accommodating. He was even willing to not hold me to any contract length so it was without much risk for me. You got your allotted times per month that could be scheduled in advance. Within a 24 hour window you could sail as much as you wanted if the boat was available. 

The down side is that it is not your boat. If you are the type that enjoys projects and/or are looking for the "pride" of ownership then you will not get that. You have to deal with the boats as the are regarding sails, equipment, etc. This is both good and bad. Really just depends on what you are looking for. If you are not sure what you are looking for then a club can be a great place to test the waters. Owning a boat is a huge commitment and one that in most cases is not easy reversed.

See if the club(s) will allow you a trail period without a big commitment in contract terms or buy in costs. If so then I would give it a try. Relatively cheap and painless way to learn if it is right for you.

Good luck getting out on the water.

Foster


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## SanderO

flee27 said:


> I don't live in the area and have no experience with these clubs specifically. Like a few others I did participate in a sailing club before purchasing my boat. At the time it was a good fit for my sailing availability.
> 
> Without a doubt there is no argument for costs. The club will be much less expensive. If all you want is hassle free sailing then the club can't be beat. Especially if your schedule is flexible with time during the week to sail. In this case you must likely will be able to sail all you want. At least this was the case in my area. Also think about if you are interested in doing any overnights. If so make sure you find out what the clubs policy is regarding overnights or extended use of the boat.
> 
> Also like stated above your general experience will have a lot to do with how the club is structured and the attitude of the people that run it. In my case the owner was very accommodating. He was even willing to not hold me to any contract length so it was without much risk for me. You got your allotted times per month that could be scheduled in advance. Within a 24 hour window you could sail as much as you wanted if the boat was available.
> 
> The down side is that it is not your boat. If you are the type that enjoys projects and/or are looking for the "pride" of ownership then you will not get that. You have to deal with the boats as the are regarding sails, equipment, etc. This is both good and bad. Really just depends on what you are looking for. If you are not sure what you are looking for then a club can be a great place to test the waters. Owning a boat is a huge commitment and one that in most cases is not easy reversed.
> 
> See if the club(s) will allow you a trail period without a big commitment in contract terms or buy in costs. If so then I would give it a try. Relatively cheap and painless way to learn if it is right for you.
> 
> Good luck getting out on the water.
> 
> Foster


The club concept in my business plan was for RESORT BASED CLUBS with the boats not for overnight use. The target audience were people who wanted to "get on boats" when on vacation who already had lodging. Not for term charter!


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## shoffman57

I belong to a club here on the Hudson river. The cost for the season is $495 to sail with other members, $995 to sail only the 24's, and $1,395 to sail the 24's and 26's and guests are free at the top level, for May thru Oct. I haven't had a problem getting a boat any weekend. I may not get the 26 footer but I have no problem getting sailing time. It is for four hour slots, so no overnighters. but I guess during the week you could sail longer I never asked. I find it's cheaper that even dockage here in NY and you don't have to maintain the boat. They are bare bones as a rental has to be but it gets me out on the water. If you are looking for time on the water to see if it's for you there is no better way unless you know someone that needs crew.


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## AWT2_Sail

pigs&poodles said:


> Hi All i was wondering if anyone has any experience/ knowledge of Sail Time boat club or Chesapeake Boating Club in the Annapolis MD area. I am considering these 2 clubs vs owner ship. Any Thoughts?


I was (before my rash decision to buy a Pearson 10m) looking at the sailing club offered by The Sailing Academy in Deale. They offer a roughly 1/8 use of the boat for less than you’d pay for a slip at Herrington Harbor. Guaranteed minimum number of weekends and weekdays each month April to early November. They have a range of boats from a Catalina 27 up to a *Jeanneau 40.*


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## pigs&poodles

AWT2_Sail said:


> I was (before my rash decision to buy a Pearson 10m) looking at the sailing club offered by The Sailing Academy in Deale. They offer a roughly 1/8 use of the boat for less than you’d pay for a slip at Herrington Harbor. Guaranteed minimum number of weekends and weekdayS each month April to wait November. They have a range of boats from a Catalina 27 up to a *Jeanneau 40.*


Is this where you dock your boat? Have you heard any complaints about the Sailing club such as trouble getting sail time?


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## AWT2_Sail

My boat is across Rockhold Creek at Paradise. Sailing Academy is at the north end of HHN. They have some guaranteed minimums on the boats like at lease one weekend a month, not sure about all the terms.
of course with a sharing arrangements someone is going to shut out of prime sailing days.


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## Phil6

I was a member of the Sailing Academy and then Chesapeake Boating Club for 6 seasons. I agree with most of the pro/con points above on sailing clubs vs owning, but I do believe that the boat club works really well for the way most of us sail. You basically spend almost all of your 'boat time' actually sailing instead of working on the boat, which can work well if you have limited time with kids activities, etc. That was the case for us. 

Both clubs were good. We moved to CBC because the membership there was more for a class of boats instead of a particular boat, so there was better ability to sail when we wanted to on weekends. We were never not able to get a boat for a weekend at CBC, maybe not the exact boat you wanted, but you got out on the water. The boats there are older but well-maintained and very fun to sail (J-boats). Both of these clubs also have good sailing schools.

Again, the club model works well for getting a lot of sailing time in. One weekend, we had a transmission cable fail on our boat. A quick call in to the club and Alex was out to help us get the boat into the slip, and it was wonderful to simply pack up our gear and go home instead of worrying about how and when to get it fixed.


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## pigs&poodles

AWT2_Sail said:


> My boat is across Rockhold Creek at Paradise. Sailing Academy is at the north end of HHN. They have some guaranteed minimums on the boats like at lease one weekend a month, not sure about all the terms.
> of course with a sharing arrangements someone is going to shut out of prime sailing days.


Are you having second thoughts about your purchase? I have come to the decision that at my age, 70, I don't want to be burdened with the on going upkeep of a boat. I am looking forward to getting back into sailing it's been almost 50 years.


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## AWT2_Sail

No second thoughts. Not yet at least. I just bought her and I’m looking forward to working on and sailing her, learning to do both as I go. As I started taking lessons last year, I was thinking and was advised to sail more on different boats to get a feel for what I might want. Good advice, but I quickly realized the boats I was taking cruising classes on (30-36’) were what I wanted. Then a deal fell into my lap and I couldn’t say no.


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## Sailbaum

First, disclosure, I was a member and then an owner of 2 boats in the Sailtime program in the Chesapeake. I believe that that it is a great program both for owners and members. 

For owners they get to defray most if not all of their expenses in exchange for sharing the boat with others. For me, I like the idea of introducing the joy of sailing to others in an economically friendly way. If you have the time to use your boat full time - great, do so. If not, consider sailtime. 

For members they get to use a new boat for a fraction of the cost and time commitment of ownership. If you already know about boats and have the time and money to deal with all the hassles, buy a boat. If not, join Sailtime. 

The bottom line is that Sailtime provides a great opportunity to be introduced to sailing from all angles. 

I have spoken with many members, both on my boat and others, and they were all positive about the experience. 

I don't know anything about the other club and it may be great. I do believe that sailtime is a great option.


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## Chaff

Not sure I have anything new to add and I'm up in Boston. Last year I went thought the same decision process you are going through. I talked to a lot of people. What I found was just what other people are reporting:

SailTime: Most expensive around here, BUT *new boats*. The scheduling is online and works well. The marinas they are in here are first rate. Only complaints I heard were around holidays like the 4th or big events (e.g. tall ships) then you need to sit on the computer an hope you can nab the spot when it opens up. Doesn't sound like that's an issue for you. You can rent elsewhere in network if you want to sail other areas. The person running it here in Boston is great, also teaches sailing and after not joining was super helpful when I happened upon him on the pier. No maintenance, just show up. 
Non-profit clubs: There are options here where you basically sign up for a maximal class of boat. In this club you can take out anything up to the biggest you're paying for. It's going to vary between clubs but as somebody else mentioned they are going to be older, donated boats. Doesn't matter to me and I would have liked the variety. What I didn't like was the restriction on staying inside Boston harbor. Decent size cruising ground & would have worked for the first year but after that I would be bored. I would have joined them if Covid hadn't messed that all up. But then...
I ended up finding a boat on my short list, a Contest (hi @SanderO !) that was well in my price range. 

Have a great time!


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## creativemacs

pigs&poodles said:


> Hi All i was wondering if anyone has any experience/ knowledge of Sail Time boat club or Chesapeake Boating Club in the Annapolis MD area. I am considering these 2 clubs vs owner ship. Any Thoughts?


I belonged to Sailtime in New York in the early 2000's. It was a great experience, albeit on the expensive side. After 3 years I could have bought a boat with the fee, maybe not a brand new Hunter 36 but still a nice chunk of change. Back then you choose to join a particular boat with 7 other members, 8 shares total – the owner/member of the boat gets 2 shares. They had strict rules in place to ensure each share gets the same amount of boat time and it's pretty fair. You go to their website to book when you want to use the boat. The website/calendar has the booking rules built-in. For example, each day is divided into 2 shift – day (something like 9a-7p, can't remember exactly) and night (8p-8a), with an hour blocked out in between each shift. You can book a few shifts in a row but the calendar will block you from going over your allotment. It's all very fair. Weekend shifts have more restrictions because everybody wants the boat on weekends. The downside is you have to decide pretty early when you want the boat for holiday weekends, like months in advance. If July Fourth falls on a weekend you can be sure it will not be available if you wait too long. You still have allotted weekends, but you may not be able to get the exact weekend you want. Weekdays though were always available, even on the same day sometimes. I was able to use the boat a lot during the week because I didn't have a regular job. I couldn't book the whole week though, more like 3 weekdays in a row or something like that. The more shifts you book in a row, especially if it includes one of the weekend shifts, the less you'll be able to do that again – I think you can do that once a month. There are 7 other people that may want to do the same thing so these restrictions are necessary. There was a blackberry onboard with a checklist that you must go over before and after each shift. You can leave notes for your fellow members or management if there's something wrong. You have to clean the boat before you leave. If I find an open seacock or a dirty boat when I come onboard I can report it on the blackberry and management gets involved.

That's all I can think of for now. I had a great time and it made me want my own boat even more.

Terry


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## pigs&poodles

Sailbaum said:


> First, disclosure, I was a member and then an owner of 2 boats in the Sailtime program in the Chesapeake. I believe that that it is a great program both for owners and members.
> 
> For owners they get to defray most if not all of their expenses in exchange for sharing the boat with others. For me, I like the idea of introducing the joy of sailing to others in an economically friendly way. If you have the time to use your boat full time - great, do so. If not, consider sailtime.
> 
> For members they get to use a new boat for a fraction of the cost and time commitment of ownership. If you already know about boats and have the time and money to deal with all the hassles, buy a boat. If not, join Sailtime.
> 
> The bottom line is that Sailtime provides a great opportunity to be introduced to sailing from all angles.
> 
> I have spoken with many members, both on my boat and others, and they were all positive about the experience.
> 
> I don't know anything about the other club and it may be great. I do believe that sailtime is a great option.


I looked into the ownership program at Sailtime, only info on the website, and thought it would probably work well for me but then after five or so years they stop using your boat. That is where I lost interest . What did you do with your two boats? Is it cheaper using their ownership program then paying membership providing you have the cash available to put down on the new boat?


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## olson34

There is a similar organization in my area. Their boats are 'middle aged' to put it nicely, but they have a steady stream of users. Our club has gained a handful of new members over the last decade who tried their program and liked sailing enough that they bought their own boat and joined our YC. 
Gotta say, that watching their boats out on the water does always make me appreciate our better-condition-and-shaped sails on our boat!


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## Sailbaum

I sold both boats, and it's certainly true that you won't know how the costs really work out until you sell. For me, the total cost of ownership of each boat worked out less than a membership for the same period. That's without considering tax benefits. There might be some tax benefits depending upon individual circumstances, but be careful. I think much of the advice out there about the tax benefits is questionable - or at least don't fully address all the variables. 

When I was in the program, they initially had a fixed payment program (steady, but less, money) and a variable payment program (more money, more risk). Those programs changed over the years and I don't know what they offer now. That can make a big difference in the economics. And, in a variable payment program, selecting a popular boat for members is essential. Boats over 36 feet or so can be intimidating for newer sailors. 

When I owned the boats, I didn't always have the time to use them and/or maintain them. I enjoyed being able to work on the boats when I wanted to, while knowing that the base would take care of the maintenance if needed. Selling the boats turned out to be easy - I priced them somewhat aggressively, and they sold quickly. They are well maintained and unlike a typical charter boat, the members (who are each assigned a specific boat) all generally treated the boat like their own and that helps a lot. 

Ultimately, the decisions around boats are very personal with many variables. I think that the sail sharing clubs generally, and Sailtime in particular, provide a lot of benefits. If it were me, (and this is what I did) consider a one year membership, get to know the club and see if it's a fit - then if it still makes sense, consider buying. Of course, the wild card is the used boat market 5 years from now. Who knows. I know that some owners intended to keep the boat after the 5 years, and used the rental to ease into ownership and offset the initial expenses. That model didn't work for me, the boats that were popular for members were not ones that I wanted to keep and the economics didn't work for me.


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## pigs&poodles

Sailbaum said:


> I sold both boats, and it's certainly true that you won't know how the costs really work out until you sell. For me, the total cost of ownership of each boat worked out less than a membership for the same period. That's without considering tax benefits. There might be some tax benefits depending upon individual circumstances, but be careful. I think much of the advice out there about the tax benefits is questionable - or at least don't fully address all the variables.
> 
> When I was in the program, they initially had a fixed payment program (steady, but less, money) and a variable payment program (more money, more risk). Those programs changed over the years and I don't know what they offer now. That can make a big difference in the economics. And, in a variable payment program, selecting a popular boat for members is essential. Boats over 36 feet or so can be intimidating for newer sailors.
> 
> When I owned the boats, I didn't always have the time to use them and/or maintain them. I enjoyed being able to work on the boats when I wanted to, while knowing that the base would take care of the maintenance if needed. Selling the boats turned out to be easy - I priced them somewhat aggressively, and they sold quickly. They are well maintained and unlike a typical charter boat, the members (who are each assigned a specific boat) all generally treated the boat like their own and that helps a lot.
> 
> Ultimately, the decisions around boats are very personal with many variables. I think that the sail sharing clubs generally, and Sailtime in particular, provide a lot of benefits. If it were me, (and this is what I did) consider a one year membership, get to know the club and see if it's a fit - then if it still makes sense, consider buying. Of course, the wild card is the used boat markThanks for the info. et 5 years from now. Who knows. I know that some owners intended to keep the boat after the 5 years, and used the rental to ease into ownership and offset the initial expenses. That model didn't work for me, the boats that were popular for members were not ones that I wanted to keep and the economics didn't work for me.


Thanks for the info. nothing like real world experience to help weigh the pros and cons. At this point I would have to go on a waiting list for the Annapolis SailTime. I talked to the Chesapeake Boat Club and they seem top have memberships available. I definitely don't want to own a boat at this tome in my life unless someone else is doing all the work maintaining it.


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