# Any seaworthy swing keel, row-able boats, with cabin.



## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

I really like sailing my simple 24 ft keelboat with 4 ft draft. I don't want anything bigger or more complex since I usually single hand and I am a minimalist.

The things that I don't like are:
1. Possibility of outboard malfunction if wind dies or rig fails or when I must navigate a crowded marina. I would like to be able to row out of shipping lanes or row into my slip at the marina.
2. Possibility of running aground. Would like an even shallower draft and would like to be able to beach the boat in an emergency, duck into the lee of a windward shore etc...
3. Dragging anchor at night - again the possibility of running aground.

I would just get an open boat with a center board, but I like sailing in the Puget Sound (cold water, occasionally rough wind and waves), and I would like a place to sleep/keep dry. I really like my 1400 pounds of ballast and my cabin. I want to be able to cross the Strait of Juan de Fuca and gunkhole in the San Juans. Not interested in blue water ocean passages etc..

Am I asking too much? I have learned that each sailboat is a series of compromises.

The SCAMP looks great, but I'm interested in a little more protected space and a boat perhaps less prone to capsize/knockdowns. Are there any seaworthy, swing keel or otherwise beach-able, boats that are also light enough to row but still have some shelter? Like a Cal 20 with a big-ass 900 pound swing keel (just kidding).

Has anyone crossed the Strait in a SCAMP, a Potter, a Montgomery or something like that?


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

1, if you really did have 3 fails when navigating a marina.. DROP the hook call or wait for help.

2, 4ft is not shallow draft.

3, learn how to set anchor sleep all night!

The dream can come true. (i think the co. folded though) 










Oh # 4! learn how to sail on and off a dock!


----------



## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Denise-

Learn how to read. Read my post again. Then learn how to type. Then offer a useful suggestion if you feel so inclined.

I didn't have three fails, I think I used the word "possibility". 

And thanks, I already know that 4 feet is not a shallow draft, hence my question about good swing keel sailboats.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Edit, was dat, 
ya dun like me humer?


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Sea Pearl 21 comes to mind. West Wight Potter might do the trick, with more room than a Scamp. lots of folks use yulohs to propel larger keelboats.


----------



## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

deniseO30 said:


> Edit, was dat,
> ya dun like me humer?


Didn't notice any humor in your reply. Just thought you were being really condescending.

I can sail on and off the dock just fine if the wind is blowing. More difficult when there's no wind. Again, try reading the post.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

One of my most respected sailing friends once showed me how to sail jib only, in the dark, in a crowded marina with only the hare's breath of a summer evening; while there was a line wrapped around a prop. "How did you do that?" I asked. "Denise, just be patient" we came up on a mooring and casually picked it up. Later, the line came off the shaft with a pull while tapping the starter in reverse.


----------



## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

deniseO30 said:


> One of my most respected sailing friends once showed me how to sail jib only, in the dark, in a crowded marina with only the hare's breath of a summer evening; while there was a line wrapped around a prop. "How did you do that?" I asked. "Denise, just be patient" we came up on a mooring and casually picked it up. Later, the line came off the shaft with a pull while tapping the starter in reverse.


That's really good sailing and seamanship you describe.

But I started this thread to learn more about swing keel sailboats that can be rowed and beached, and that have some sort of cabin. I'm really interested in learning about this specific topic. Any suggestions?


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Cat boats, sharpies, mutihulls, bilge keelers (British are way ahead of us on that) 

Have you ever tried to row in a blow? Or even try to row off a beach into wind and wave? I tried in my sea kayak years ago. and decided to wait it out. 
shallow to no draft is always at loss of


----------



## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

deniseO30 said:


> Have you ever tried to row in a blow? Or even try to row off a beach into wind and wave?


No. When there is wind I sail. The rowing would be for when there is no wind or the rig fails. Or when I am trying to go through the Ballard locks - not allowed to sail in and out of the locks.

But you are right. Rowing into strong wind and waves is difficult.

Thanks for the boat suggestions. Webb Chiles apparently circumnavigated in an open Drascombe Lugger 18 footer. But I am not that tough. I would like more shelter. He got knocked down and pooped several times. I'd like to avoid that.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I don't know if it's even possible to sail off a beach with sails up. Most beach sailors, I think would raise them when they are "out there" 

If you are going for shallow draft the trade off, usually means "non self righting" great in warm water.. no fun in cold. 

I would intentionally learn what it takes, to take a boat over in various conditions rather then avoid the possibility. But, do any of us really try that? 

My O30 has never knocked down (yet), and has rounded up when ever we were hit with a heavy gust. My H23 (Hunter) scared me one day on the river when a squaw hit us. laid us over to starboard with water at the winches. The boat just headed for shore without anyone "in charge" all while still on a starboard run of about 60 degrees!

Rigs generally don't fail.. maintenance fails them. 

Suggest you join the wooden boat forums, way more talk about row/sail boats there. you don't have to have a wooden boat.


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Shapies & garveys have been sailing & rowing a long time:

*23' Sea Bright Sharpie*


*28' Garvey* 


Take a look at Chappelle's "American Small Sailing Craft" for ideas.

American Small Sailing Craft: Their Design, Development and Construction:Amazon:[email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@515SjkjtjvL

#include [ std-disclaimer ]


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Go take a look at the traditional sailboats over at the Wooden Boat Center on lake Union for some ideas.


----------



## Tetra (Oct 1, 2008)

Take a look at the B&B Core Sound 17 Mk III. It's an excellent sailing boat that's been recently redesigned to house a cabin. You could build this or have it built for you.

cs17


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Chrysler 20 is a great little boat, with a heavy swing keel and a decent cabin. Probably the biggest boat I would want to row or scull. But I do not like the rudder on it (fixed spade).
Mirage 5.5m (I have one of those now) is nice and fast, with a folding transom mounted rudder, but not stable enough for rough weather. 
But something like this would probably be better, not a swing keel but very shallow draft with lots of ballast: SOVEREIGN 17 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Commodore Munroe's 'Egret' is known for being seaworthy.

" The difficulties of beach travel being thoroughly realized, and the Weather Bureau having established a telegraph line to Jupiter, it seemed imperative that something in the boat line superior to any of the existing craft for this work should be obtained. So in the summer of 1886, to replace Kingfish, I had built at Brown's the 28-foot double-ended sharpie lifeboat, Egret, very strongly but lightly constructed. She drew eight inches, and had only fifty to seventy-five bricks, laid under the floor, for ballast. She was fitted with all the appurtenances needed to keep the sea in almost any weather, and if necessary to be put on the beach without harm. That she fulfilled all requirements until the first road was opened the older residents can testify. "
(excerpted from 'The Commodore's Story', by Ralph Middleton Munroe and Vincent Gilpin - Historical Society of Southern Florida)


* 'Little Egret' Designer Ross Lillistone Thread*


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I bet one could fashion oars on a Com-Pac catboat. They make several models of differing cabin sizes. All small. I recall the littlest has about an 18" draft and the larger have that plus a swing keel.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Just put oar locks on a Catalina 22. Give yourself a board to sit on while rowing. I bet if the conditions are right you could make at least 100 yards. Maybe 200.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Row & paddle need not be muscle vs the sea. The experienced know it's more about knowing how rather then how strong his or her arms are. Higher cadence, short & quick slight pull torso driven, is more efficient then long strong back breaking strokes! 

Shorter strokes miss the water less then long reaching strokes.


----------



## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

If you do not mind building them yourself.. John Welsford has several CB boats with cabins that are extremely skinny water able with the board up.

Pathfinder is available with a cabin.

The rest are designed that way.. such as Sweet Pea, Smack, Tread Lightly, and my favourite of the bunch, Penquin.

Also Chesapeake light Craft has their "pocket ship"


----------



## Tallswede (Jul 18, 2012)

I had a Southcoast 23 with cast iron swing keel that could be rowed just like the afore mentioned Catalina 22. Would fit your bill. AMF Sunbird does not have ballast but is a pretty stable platform too.

Kevin


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Googling around I found this:

Light-weight Rowing and Sailing Dory That You Can Build


----------



## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Check out Eddy & Duff's "Dovekie." It might be a bit damp in the PNW, even with the doghouse installed. Neat boat. 21 feet LOA, twin rotating leeboards/small retractable centerboard/kick up rudder, flat bottom, rowing thwart, cat rigged with sprit and snotter, roll off trailer, unsinkable air cell construction.


----------



## lillia28 (Aug 12, 2011)

Do a search on Sculling oar sailboat, or yuloh sculling oar, it will make rowing easier.
I would think an O'Day, Catalina or Macgregor 25 would be an inexpensive way to experiment. Most have masts that are easily stepped/unstepped for those pesky rigging failure days. 
I had a rigging failure on my Mac 2-22. The mast and spreaders were in the water. No way to motor until the mast was removed. Can't imagine trying to row. You'll probably need another boat along side to safely recover a fallen mast. 
Lou


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm not sure I would call it sea worthy, but theory aside, I own a Victoria 18 sailboat that I row. It has a lead keel, boat weighs maybe 1200lbs. The rudder is attached to the keel, and cannot come out of the water like a transom mounted rudder. I think it draws about two feet. The mast has a hinged tabernacle. There is a jib and main, I hate catboats. Most importantly, it has a self bailing cockpit, forget open boats, just misery.

I tend to think of the boat as if someone was shrinking a ship to put it in a bottle and stopped when it was just barely big enough to fit a human in. I thought the cabin was just for life preservers when I purchased it, when I got home I found I could just sit up in it (I'm 5'-9), and easily lay down. My wife and I have spent a week on it more than once. Cook in the cockpit, stretch a tarp over the boom in storms and put the gear out there and sleep in the cabin. Extremely tight! But we sure enjoyed it. A week on Moosehead lake with the trolling motor lashed to the bow pulpit and never used. My first week on Sebago Lake I used the nice new outboard that came with it, but decided I didn't like the looks, balance, or noise.

I like motors when at work, but hate them when enjoying life. I want peace and quiet and nature.

So I made a simple cedar seat of 5/4 decking, with cleats so it won't slip sideways. I installed brass oarlocks after spending some time finding just the right spot. I have a flat basket of chain and lunch anchor that I rest my feet against. A rocna anchor fits exactly in the point of the bow for storms. I discovered that 8 ft. oars would just fit into the cabin, slide down the quarter berth, and tuck up high onto a little shelf at the cabin end of the quarter berth so they seemed to disappear.

Rowing is sluggish, it's a heavy boat. But it works fine for getting into the wharf and onto the trailer. Or getting out of a long cove with no wind. I've rowed quite far, once you get going it keeps going. I would now only tow a Sea Eagle inflatable canoe, not a stupid turtle shaped inflatable like I used in the past. I have a trolling motor (quiet) and battery/solar panel set up (just set the motor on the bracket and plug in) so if I didn't want to row I can troll a few miles, but never have used it since setting up the rowing. The battery also runs my bilge pump (never needed) and led running lights.

I've paddled my 23 ft. wing keel boat and consider it too heavy to enjoy rowing, but have considered trying sculling or longer oars. One consideration is that it is better to have the oarlocks tipped outboard slightly, on many boats they end up upright which tends to make the oars pop out.

Edit: I think I should stress that this boat is tiny, but still heavy for a rowboat, and I've always been a strong rower. It's an 18 ft. boat, I have a 17 ft. canoe! And my wife and I are crazy, we've been quite far out on Casco Bay in a 12 ft. canoe. And we canoe camp. What I'm saying is that compared to our larger more comfortable non rowing sailboats I think of the Vic as a heavy canoe on a trailer.


----------



## strattm (Oct 8, 2018)

Hi. Still have your Victoria 18? If so, I have a rudder question. Thanks, Mike


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

strattm said:


> Hi. Still have your Victoria 18? If so, I have a rudder question. Thanks, Mike


Yes, my Victoria 18 will likely be the last boat I part with due to ease of trailering with even a small vehicle, mast stepping (one hand raising) and general all around usefulness.

What is the question? Possibly should have asked it in your post so I could try to answer right now.

My rudder eventually was able to come off the bottom pin. I replaced the pin with a bolt. I posted the info on Victoria and McVay Sailboats Forum.

Here is a cut and paste of some info.

Using Bob's (CHAPPELL18) pictures as a guide, I finally tackled the rudder bolt/pin problem this year. I wanted to sail the boat but I wanted it fixed first.

My 1980 Vic had a brass rod that someone hammered up into the rudder (previous fix, or hurry up at the factory?). It was snapped off with a 3/4" or 1" stub, probably from hitting bottom. I recall having to fix a bashed in gouge on the rudder when I got the boat. Since I expected a threaded pin I had lots of trouble, almost wore out the stub before it came free. Lots of PB Blaster, some heat, lots of vicegrip yanking and twisting and prybar use.

Then I got a 5/16" x 18 tap a Napa ($3) and chased out the threads. I first ran a bit up through the keel hole to free it up a little, then tried a 3 1/2" stainless bolt for fit. 3" would have been enough. I marked the bolt and cut it off at the mark, then cut a slot in the shaft for a flat blade screwdriver. This allowed me to have a full length pin recessed so it would not snag. If the bolthead hangs down it will be the lowest point on the boat and hit bottom first, stressing a known weak spot. I also broke the sharp edges of the cut with a slight taper. Instead of locktight I used grease, getting it out is difficult, I want to be free to remove and check it for wear.

My three bronze bolts arrived yesterday, I intended to make bronze pins from them. BUT, they are theaded full length! The stainless bolts have maybe an inch of threads, then smooth shaft. The threads bury into the rudder, and the smooth shaft makes an ideal surface for the rotation on the keel. Quite disappointed, but will continue to look for the correct bronze bolt - one inch threaded on a 5/16 dia. x 18 x 3" bolt.


----------



## strattm (Oct 8, 2018)

Great! Finally! I have been asking a lot of people. This is what I imagined was needed but wasn't sure. Are these bronze bolts hard to find? I'm guessing I won't find them at my local hardware store. Thanks for you reply and the photo. Very helpful.


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

strattm said:


> Great! Finally! I have been asking a lot of people. This is what I imagined was needed but wasn't sure. Are these bronze bolts hard to find? I'm guessing I won't find them at my local hardware store. Thanks for you reply and the photo. Very helpful.


I did use a stainless bolt from the local hardware store. I never did get a bronze bolt with the smooth shaft. However, my concern was that the stainless might be harder than the bronze and wear the attachment point to the keel instead of wearing the bolt. The stainless bolt allowed me to fix it and go sailing - life is short!


----------



## skygazer (Sep 3, 2011)

strattm said:


> Great! Finally! I have been asking a lot of people. This is what I imagined was needed but wasn't sure. Are these bronze bolts hard to find? I'm guessing I won't find them at my local hardware store. Thanks for you reply and the photo. Very helpful.


I found the photos taken by Bob (Chappel18) and am posting one that clearly shows the pin (the bolt, I removed the head on mine to avoid lobster lines etc.) and how it screws into the heavy bar to the tiller. The pin acts as a pivot inside the sleeve on the U shaped heavy piece that is attached to the hull. Normally all that is covered with fiberglass but I found it helpful to understand what is under there.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I was able to buy a complete spare 5HP outboard, of the same make and model. Its only 50lb and cost $300 Not much chance of a two engine failures. I can swap the motors by hand. 

I keep two plastic canoe paddles on board, but realistically - even with 2 strong people you cant row against strong wind and tides.


----------

