# What would you buy for $100,000?



## TSOJOURNER

Hi all, I''m looking to buy a cruiser for the Chesapeke bay. I have about $100,000 to spend. I''m not planning to race, but I may be interested in cruising down the ICW in the off season. 
I''m interested in knowing what everyone''s out there recommends, also knowing that I would prefer something in the 34-40 foot range.


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## Denr

Almost anything except a Benehuntalina. More specifically a pre-owned, high quality performance cruiser about 8-12 years old which will probably be equipped with desirable upgrades such as radar, autopilot, refrigeration, head sail furler, maybe a few anchors and good ground tackle and a relatively good sail inventory. New boats, especially in the 100K range, would normally require an extensive list of additional equipment to make them ready to go the distance. I suggest that you get a recent edition of the "Sounding Magazine" to become familiar with what is on the market.


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## SHIMSHON

2500 shares of Bank of New York!! Then with the profits buy my boat for $195,000.


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## TSOJOURNER

Hey Denr, give us a break on Benehuntalinas, OK? If a guy is cruising the Chesapeake and the ICW, and is not going seriously offshore, those boats offer a lot of space and enjoyment for the money. One does not need a classic seagoing boat with all monel and stainless steel fittings just enjoy a day or two on the water. 
Mass production is not always a bad thing, especially if it puts more people in sailboats by reducing prices.

Dave...


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## TSOJOURNER

I would have to say, in my completely unbiased opinion, that you should buy the C&C 37 CB I''m trying to sell <g>. She''s got a centerboard, great for those Chesapeake shallows. At $68K you can still buy some of that Bank of New York stock afterwords.

She''s actually a solid, great sailing boat. There''s a lot of those out there - boats of a certain vintage like C&C, Sabre, some J''s, etc. that you can get for under 100K and have a great sailing experience.


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## ddebruin

I agree about Denr. I don''t hear much about anything except his negative statements about "benahuntalinas". It would be nice to know the details of his complaints so those of us who are really interested in the negatives and positives of certain boats would have something other than "never buy one". I know that there are good and bad points about almost all boats and manufacturers. Some are safety issues and need to be addressed, but many seem to be what the boat is designed to do and how it will be used by the owner. Those are important factors that are more than just all benahuntalinas are bad.


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## Denr

I didn''t say they were bad boats. I simply stated that I would never own one. I believe that the Benehuntalinas are better suited to day sailing, dock side living and entertaining than they are to cruising the distance. As one example, just look at the "permanent" picnic tables in the cockpits of the bigger Benehuntalinas. I challenge you to find one of these in a J-Boat, Tartan, C&C, Pacific Seacraft, Island Packet, Bristol, Little Harbor, Sabre, Morris, Dehler, Farr, Alden, Swan, Hallberg Rassy or Hinckley. These boats are designed to be sailed. Picnics should be held in a park!


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## henryvand

Ignore the negative comments about benahuntalinas - they are the equivalent of someone telling you that you should not buy a fordchevrysler - If you know what you are looking for in a boat you can get excellent value from the production boats - I started sailing over 30 years ago and bought a Beneteau 331 last year - I have sailed it in all conditions and found it to perform extremely well - contrary to previous comment it spends much time away from the dock - no picnic table required.


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## TSOJOURNER

My Beneteau First 40.7 doesn''t have a picnic table in the cockpit. Hey where can I get one of those?


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## doubleplay

I believe both sides have valid arguments concerning the Benehuntalinas.
Some of them are better than the others,like First series in beneteau line(40.7 winning a lot of PHFR races)some of them are more suited to coastal sailing or some of them maybe better suited to entertainment dockside..
You generally get what you pay for, this applies to resale values as well.
If you are a sailor in heart, I would suggest get a boat that can move in light airs because this is what you are going to get in the Bay and Intercoastal most of the time in the sailing season.Apart from that any boat that you like will serve the purpose of sailing in the Bay regardless of the builder.


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## DARE-Oriental

I think centerboard is a good option for Chesapeake.


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## Jeff_H

Ideal Chesapeake Cruisers under 100K

I have just gone through that very search for myself (except with a smaller budget) and the following represents my thoughts on this. To begin with, here on the Chesapeake Bay, there are real rewards for light air performance or little more speed. The Bay has an amazing ability to serve up just about any kind of weather that you can conceive of but mostly it serves up winds under 10 or 12 knots and often under 5 knots. I can''t tell you how much I hate to run the engine. Because of that aversion, the ability to sail at a healthy speed in light winds really increases the number of days that we can use the boat and also greatly increases the number of days spent without using the engine. We think nothing of sailing on or off the anchor, in and out of slips, or coming up to a raft up under sail. That to me is what voyaging under sail is about.

On the Bay, a 20/30 seconds a mile (PHRF rating) increase in speed can mean literally a dozen or more options for anchorages over a simple weekend and can mean hundreds, of more opportunities over a week long cruise. In the size range that you are considering, you should be looking for a boat with a minimum PHRF rating less than 120 and with a rating less than 100 being even more ideal. This is not about racing; it is about being able to cruise under sail. While we are talking numbers, I would suggest an L/Disp ratio under 200 (under 160 being even more ideal) and a SA/Disp ratio near 20 (with over 20 being even more ideal)

Much has been said about the need for shoal draft in the Chesapeake, but after nearly two decades of sailing into and out of creeks and rivers as far north as Harve d Grace and as far south as the Potomac, I think that you can easily cruise the bay with a much as 7 feet of draft. Obviously, closer to 6 feet is a bit handier especially in the ICW.

With our small tidal range, soft sticky mud or hard sand bottoms, wing keels and long keels are not too great if you run aground as you are more likely to be really ''planted'' than with a fin keel where it is easier to spin yourself out. Centerboarders are also a good option if you really want to get tucked back into obscure and shallower corners of the Bay.

I can''t help but comment on this raging debate on whether Beneteaus, Hunters, and Catalinas are a good option for the Bay. With the close proximity of anchorages, the fact that few people sail through the night on the Bay, the need for light air, and the near absence of the need for long term heavy weather performance, the Chesapeake Bay is about as ideal a place to own one of these less expensive, mass produced boats. Despite the hype to the contrary, over the years these manufacturer''s have produced some of their model boats that were reasonably well built and which had good performance and reasonable levels of finish.

Ventilation is important on the Bay. I like having lots of operable hatches where you can rig wind catchers but operable ports and dorades are also important as well.

In no particular order the following are boats that I consider good ''Bay Boats'' within your budget:

-Baltic 39
These are very well built and nicely finished yachts. They don''t have the best light air performance but they are really fine boats for the dollar. I am not a big fan of the rig proportions for short-handed sailing or reaching without a spinnaker. They are also a little short on ventilation.

-Beneteau First 38s5, First 38, and First 36s7:
Beneteau is the largest boat building company in the world and as such they offer a number of different lines of boats at a wide range of quality levels and price points. They build custom yachts that rival the best of the best, but they also build some basic ''value boats'' that really are nothing that I would ever consider. Their ''First'' series of boats represent a really nice compromise. They tend to be better built than their Idyle, Oceanis, and ''number'' series and seem to offer better performance and finish levels. I think that the 40.7 (which I have raced on) and the new 36.7 are really first class boats. I have spent a lot of time around and on the early 1990''s and late 1980''s 38s5''s and really think they are wonderful Bay boats with a great cruising interior (particularly the two stateroom vs. three-stateroom layout). One of Beneteau''s greatest strengths is that they typically employ world class yacht designers such as Bruce Farr, Groupe Berret, Groupe Finot, and German Frer''s to design their boats.

Cal 40:
Come with us now to yesteryear. The Cal 40''s are a blast from the past and a bit of an exception to my rules. These are really nice older boats. On the Bay you see some really beautifully restored and upgraded yachted up versions of this venerable yacht selling at extremely reasonable prices.

-C&C 35, 36, 37, 40, 41
C&C is a well-respected company. Their boats are generally biased toward good performance and simple very workable interiors. Most of the C&C''s lack the kind of frills that look great at boat shows but which often do not amount to much on the water. Over the years different models of C&C''s have varied pretty widely in construction, finish and design quality with some C&C''s actually being pretty junky (Anyone remember the Mega?). many of the C&C models had the option of having a centerboarder and the C&C 41 Centerboarder is an especially nice model. One problem with C&C''s is that most of their models were sold pretty much ala carte and so there are some very stripped out versions with inadequate deck gear and few operable ports as well as some fully equipped models out there. This makes it a little more difficult to do apples to apples comparisons. 
Catalinas:
Catalinas are common as dirt on the Chesapeake. They are everywhere! Of the big three boat manufacturers, this is my least favorite in all ways. Still Catalina has a strong following and are easy to find. While they would never be on my list for myself, they clearly work for others.

Condor 40:
And now for something a completely different. Conceived as the perfect Bay cruiser these trimarans were designed and built on the Chesapeake. While they are a little ''out of the box'', they make super boats for the Bay in that they are fast, weatherly and yet with their dagger boards and kick up rudders they can anchor in a teacup depth of water. The interiors are cramped compared as a 40 foot monohull but are far more roomy than I had expected before going below. There are some compromises here but they really offer a lot for that compromise. Their extreme shoal draft would be especially helpful on the Inter-coastal waterway. On the other hand they are also offshore capable allowing a quick offshore leap up and down the coast should you prefer to avoid the waiting at numerous bridges and constant vigilance that is the typical ICW fare.

Express 37:
This was my second choice for my own ideal choice as a ''Bay Boat''. In my book these boats had two strikes against them. They had masthead rigs which are not as good for short-handed rigs for coastal cruising and with their standard keel they are a little deeper than I could get into my creek at low tide. Still these are extremely well built and well thought out boats that make nice cruisers and very good racers. There were a number of very nicely finished interiors on these boats. (The workmanship on these boats was spectacular).They varied from really Spartan racing interiors on the earlier boats to their ''C'' (for cruising) interior which was about as close to ideal for a 37 footer as I could imagine. These boats really have held their value quite well and are selling for pretty much the same price that they sold for new.

Farr 11.6 (Farr 38):
This was the boat that I decided was my ideal ''Bay'' cruiser. While not quite as fast as the Express 37''s, these were better offshore boats and their shallower draft and fractional rig was better suited to how I use a boat. Like J-boats, most cruisers think of Bruce Farr as only designing serious race boats, but throughout the history of the firm, Farr has designed marvelous performance cruisers. The Farr 11.6 was Farr''s early 1980''s idea of a perfect cruiser/racer. These boats have collected quite a record both as cruisers and racers. Easily handled and with a really nice layout for cruising these are really neat boats. For me it does not get any better than this (at least within my budget).

Frers 36 (F3), 37, 38''s:
These were semi-custom yachts delivered in a wide range of gear and levels of fit out. Some are stripped out race boats with very deep draft but others are really beautifully fit out and finished performance cruisers.

Hunter 36, 37 and 375:
There are some people who can''t stand Hunters and won''t even look at them with enough of an open mind to fairly assess these boats. Mythology aside, Hunter has built some specific models that are really nice boats. In talking with surveyors, the one thing that I universally hear about Hunter is that they know how to build a boat that meets all standards. This is not true of many even more respected builders. That said, they are designed and engineered to meet a price and a narrow range fo useage. That useage would include the conditions that you describe as your long term goals.

There are three boats that stand out as good boats in the price range that you are considering and a 4th that is a bit more of a compromise. In the early 1980''s Hunter built a 36 foot sloop and a 37 foot cutter that were really nice boats. These two boats have done a lot of serious cruising and have been used pretty widely as live aboards. Obviously they are getting pretty long in the tooth so you can expect to put a little money into them but you can but these boats for small portion of your budget.

The 375 is a pretty nice fractional rigged sloop. This is a more modern design then 36/37 and a faster boat as well. I have only been aboard one of these and was quite surprised at what a nice boat these were. Obviously they are not as robust as some of the other boats on this list but the one that I was on, was raced pretty extensively and successfully and then was cruised through the Carribean for a number of years.

The last boat in the Hunter inventory is the Hunter 40/41. These are a mixed bag. Good ventilation, nice interior layout, cheap to buy and good sailers but they also have a ''cache'' of being cheap that shows up in a lot of details. Some of these boats have been massively upgraded and are a real bargain as well as a good boat for the kind of thing you have in mind.

J-34c, J-35c, J-35, J36, J37[c], J-39, J-110:
Most cruisers think of J-boats as being a builder of race boats. While this is a well deserved reputation, in the late-1980''s, J-Boats started building it cruising series. The first of this series was the J-40, which is outside of your price range but which was quickly followed by the J-37. J-boats cruising series are really spectacularly good boats for Bay cruising. They offer simple well thought out interiors with nice ergonomics (especially for a J) and good, comfortable, workable layouts. They tend to have good hardware and be well thought out for the purpose.

I have also listed the J-35 and J-36. These were clearly race boats. That said J-36''s have done circumnavigations and both have been used as short-handed transatlantic racers. You can find later J-35''s with nice and complete but slightly Spartan interiors.

NY40''s:
While not exactly common, these were high quality boats that sail very well. I am not a big fan of the rig propostions but still they are a lot of boat for the money.

Morgan 38 (not an Out Island):
These are a tamer possibility than some of the others on the list. The Morgan 38 (Sometimes listed as Morgan 382, Morgan 38 II, etc or as Brewer Morgan''s) were Brewer designed cruisers. These were pretty solidly built, reasonably nicely laid out and finished cruisers.

Oyster Lightwave 39:
These are one really cool boats. Again available in a number of different levels of interior, these are spectacular Carl Schumaker designed performance cruisers. Essentially these are an expanded version of the Express 37. The one that I have been aboard had a beautifully finished interior that would rival the best of the best.

-Pearson 35, 36, 37;
The 35 is a venerable centerboard cruiser. Not as fast as I would prefer but still a good boat for skinny water. The 36 and 37''s were really nice performance cruisers that can be purchased for half of your budget. Good solid boats with good solid sailing traits.

-Sabre;
Sabre has consistently produced boats that are good quality and offer good performance. The finishes on early Sabres were not that great but in a general sense these are good boats. Over the years Sabre has built a lot of models within the price and size you are seeking and almost any of them would work well for what you are trying to accomplish.

Soverel 39,
This is sort of an odd one. Mark Soverel designed the 39 as a no holds barred race boat. His original prototype can be bought for something like $30K here in Annapolis. Unfortuneately the prototype is stripped out and has a grand prix rig in it. BUT Tartan eventually put these boats into production with a nice interior and good build quality. Despite the asking prices, these boats can be bought quite cheaply (mid 450k range I would guess) and offer a lot of boat for the dollar. They are a little deep and are definitely performance biased.

-Tartan; 
Tartan, like Sabre, has consistently produced boats that are good quality and offer good performance. The finishes on early Tartans were not that great but in a general sense these are good boats. Over the years Sabre has built a lot of models within the price and size you are seeking and almost any of them would work well for what you are trying to accomplish. That said I am not much of the fan of the first Tartan 37. I know that they have reached cult status and pricing but they have never done anything for me and are a poor choice in the short chop of the Chesapeake.

Wylie 40:
These are really neat semi custom boats that would be really nice for the Bay.

IMX, X402 and X119:
Really nice performance oriented Scandinavian boats. Not all that common on the Bay though.

There''s the list,
Good luck
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER

I appreciate all the great feedback. I plan to look at most of the suggestions metioned. Can I get some reasons why I shouldn''t look at the Beneteau''s number series? And also maybe why I should? Thanks in advance


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## henryvand

Jeff H is correct in noting that the First series Beneteaus are the better performers however the number series boats will perform adequately with a little more comfort for cruising. I have a B331 and have found it performs extremely well. If winds are typically light you would want the classic main option which gives a little more sail area.


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## DuaneIsing

Jeff H.,

I noticed you left out Jeanneau. Just wondering what you think of their recent 40'' range boats.

TIA,
Duane


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## Jeff_H

To follow up on the questions:

I have a couple issues with the Beneteau number series. First of all if you crawl around to where you can see how the two series are constructed, it appears that the First series are a little better built. For example the tabbing on the First series looks wider (or exists as compared to the new number series in which the bulkheads are simply glued in albeit with high grade adhesives). Also most of the number series boats that show up for sale on the Chesapeake come in with very shoal wing keels and with in mast furling. That combination pretty much ruins the performance of these boats. I also like the better hull forms, deck hardware and more workable deck layouts on the First series. The other thing is that most of the more recent first series boats have fractional rigs which I consider to be a more versitile rig than a masthead, especially on the Bay.

There was a question about Jeaneaus. I have never been much of a fan of Jeaneau. They have always struck me as being one step down from Beneteau in build and design quality. Still and all the 40 (which was also built by Oday) is a popular boat on the Bay and is not the worst choice. 

Lastly someone emailed me about Dehlers. I really like these boats. I think they are well built and nicely thought out. The only problem with Dehlers when I was looking was that I could not find one in my price range. You might find one of an acceptable size in yours. One word of caution on Dehler, Dehler built a near legendary line of race boats DB-1 through DB-4 I believe. Neat race boats but useless as cruisers. There were some DB-2s and DB-3''s around quite cheaply but I doubt they will suit your bill. 

Regards
Jeff


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## sennali

Typically in Europe Jenneaus are the higher regarded boat although Beneteau''s marketing dollars have been well spent in the states, thus their better rep here. As far as cruising the Chessie and the ICW, you could do much worse then a Beneteau- I happen to be a fan.
For one, Beneteau actually builds a nice boat- if you compare them to most anything else on the mass market- and even if you compare them to smaller volume builders. Anything from the mid 90''s up is well thought out for comfort, style, space, liveaboard ability and yes, even seakeeping... The hull designs from finot and farr are fast when the hull is not heavily loaded and so long as you stay away from ex-charter boats and short rig options you will generally find that nothing out there will give you more value for the dollar. 

Your big sacrifice is more in the way of the pale vanilla character that these boats have, and the well-meaning but largely ignorant comments of other sailors who have half the space for the same length boat.

P.S. 12,000 of my 30000 bluewater miles were on beneteaus- a first 36 from Gran Canaria to Gorda and an oceanis 510 from BVI''s to Vancouver via Panama canal...Including force 8 off of Cape Mendocino-


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## Denr

You must do most of your sailing in Africa because it sounds as if your in deNile about the poorly conceived, mass produced marina queens.


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## BradSmith

dude .....dana 24 by pacific seacraft...if it is your first boat....start small and get a reality check


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## Jeff_H

You may have missed the sailing venue that this boat is being proposed for but, while Dana 24''s might make sense in some sailing venues, and for some people''s wishes, they are next to useless as sailboats during the light air and short chop that is so common during most of our summer. They are also way over priced for what they have to offer to the average coatal cruiser. Also plant a long keel boat in the Chesapeake Bay''s sticky bottom and you are more likely to be stuck for a long while. 

I also strongly disagree with the idea that a Dana 24 makes sense for a first boat. I suggest that a more responsive design will teach a beginner a lot more about how to really sail. Then, after a few years of experience, if this now ''intermediate'' sailor decides that their ideal boat is a short, over-priced boat that only sails well in long duration swells or flat water and winds between 12 and 18 knots, but which really looks jaunty, perhaps then the Dana 24 makes sense. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER

Ah, the ever popular production boat debate. The key to any kind of consensus in this discussion is context. The parameters of $100k budget, 34''-40'', and coastal cruising use mostly cover it, but leaving out age opens up the whole thing to conjecture. For Denr to categorically exclude Bene''s/Jenne''s, Hunters and Catalinas means that the newest 40 footer that qualifies will be at almost 20 years old, with the 34 footer being at least 12 years. While not a longevity issue, you are going to miss out on some of the design innovations that started to occur by the late-80''s and into the 90''s. Many of these are comfort and amenity oriented as opposed to that of performance, but we''d be kidding ourselves to say these are not a priority with many owners.

That being said, I continue to believe that in the production world, Beneteau and Jeanneau offer a great balance between quality, comfort and cost. Ferenc Mate'' whole heartedly acknowledged this in his book World''s Best Sailboats. Having owned a Beneteau First 325 which sold 10 years later for more than we paid for it and now owner of a Jeanneau 41, I have no qualms about our choice. They are competent, well designed and well finished boats that utilize first grade materials and hardware. Among others, we looked at a 1984 Sweden 38, a 1983 Baltic 42, and a 1987 C&C 41 before choosing our 1991 Jeanneau because we felt it represented the best value even though the Sweden and C&C were cheaper in price.


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## BigRed56

Ahoy Jeff, what about Dickerson''s seems to me there is an annual race hosted around Oxford MD and although nearly all were keel boats and aren''t made anymore I bet you could save a bundle . After sailing for 18 years in the Chesapeake your comments about keels are all wet. Come on down the the southwest gulf coast I''ll show shallow water sailing at it finest. The chesapeake is an abyss by comparison. Big Red 56


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## Jeff_H

Big Red, where on the Southwest Florida coast are you? I lived sailed out of Sarasota for four years with an over 5''6" draft cutter. Kept the boat off of Orange Ave. My Dad still has his boat there and has kept his boats there for the past 29 years. Mom typically kept her boats in Punta Gorda (great sailing area) and my brother has kept his boats in Naples. Going down to visit and borrow the boats or sailing with them, I have gotten to sail the Southwest Coast of Florida and the Gulf of Mexico lots. What are you trying to say about about my comment on keels relative to Florida? 

Jeff


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## Jeff_H

Oh Yeah, Dickensons. I think of Dickens as producing 4 very different types of boats. They were one of the last production wooden boat builders, building in wood well into the 1970''s. Then they built inexpensive glass boats with dated design, cramped interiors and miserable performance. Then they built Farr 37''s which were out and out IOR era race boat and too stripped out for even my sensibilities. And lastly they built some very expensive and beautifully finished boats but poor performing. None of these would make my list of recommendations for a $100,000 cruising boat for the Chesapeake. 

Jeff


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## BigRed56

On this question I have to ask if you get paid by the word or what? Your opinion of Dickersons is just the kind of nonsense that grates on my nerves. Expertise aside any boat at any price is 100 times better than none at all. My point is that hundreds of people have been very happy with a boat that by your opinion dosen''t even rate a mention.Used boats of older vintage have a lot to offer in allowing acessibility to a greater portion of the population. The Dickerson company died because it mistakenly tryed to compete in the market you prefer. The last production boat the 37 sloop lost in the annual race to a 1963 strip planked mahogany ketch hard chined and loaded for crusing becuase of seamanship and luck. The 37 was the best ever produced by dickerson for its real market. Regular people who just love to sail.


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## BigRed56

Ahoy Jeff, I sail out of Pine Island and Cape Coral in Charlotte and Lee counties and when I say shallow water I mean when my boat isn''t hard aground listing at a 25 degree angle in it''s slip. The Chesapeake is on average 100 times more usable and your dislike of keel boats with respect to the Chesapeake are absurd. Tankers and submarines passing the Bay bridge ought to tell you something. I would wager a tanker would not visit your mom in Punta Gorda. There was a time when there wasn''t much else but keel boats on the Chesapeake and the innovations of shallow water (skipjack)sailing were reserved for fishing vessels which out of necessity worked oyster bars etc.. My objection was clearly aimed at your lack of perspective in the real world.


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## RichH

Agree, If you have the need to scurry all over the place at the fastest speed possible at all times, you could get in your car and drive to those destinations, or rent a helicopter or a (godforbid) Bayliner. With a full keel, you can sail all night long through the densest field of crab pot floats..... and still really enjoy yourself. 
Nothing can equal the pleasure of a fast boat; but, you dont need to be "state of the art" or nervously adhereing to the latest transitory ''fads'' to enjoy oneself.... and still enjoy the full essence of sailing, more in enjoyment of the "trip" than hurrying manic-like to the destination. Why the rush?


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## Jeff_H

Gentlemen: (Red and Rich)

You obviously were upset by my earlier posts on this topic. When I go back and read yours and my posts on this topic I really do not understand what you are trying to say. 

Lets start with the original question, in which swo104 was "looking to buy a cruiser for the Chesapeake bay." with "about $100,000 to spend." and who further said he "may be interested in cruising down the ICW in the off season." 

He did not ask about Southwestern Florida. I did not answer about Southwestern Florida. Red, for the record, I don''t have a dislike of keel boats. Most of the boats on the list that I gave swo104 were keel boats. I suggested a few centerboard boats as well.

Red, I don''t know what you mean by "lack of perspective in the real world" but we each decide upon the venue that we chose to sail in and by and large that venue dictates our ''real world'' experience. In the forty years that I have been sailing I have sailed predominantly on the east coast of the US, and in sailing in a lot of differing venues, from Maine to the Gulf Coast of Florida,I have seen that each venue requires an adjustment in perspective and a redefinition of ''normal''in the term ''normal real world conditions''. Your own "lack of perspective in the real world" of the Chesapeake may have lead you to be somehow offended by my list of suggestions but I still don''t see your point even as seen from my experience in that the small microcism of the world that you choose to call home. 

Red, I also don''t see your point about tankers passing under the Bay Bridge. They also pass under the Skyway Bridge in Tampa as well. Sure, you would not bring a tanker into Punta Gorda any more than you would bring one up the Severn River. Nowhere in my post do I argue that shallower draft in a boat is not a virtue in sailing areas like your home grounds but again your home waters were not included in swo104''s question. 

I also don''t see where you are coming from when you seem to imply that I prefer new boats such as seems to be implied in your statement, "Used boats of older vintage have a lot to offer in allowing acessibility to a greater portion of the population." I posted a list of used boats covering a span of production eras from the early 1970''s through the early 1990''s. These were all used boats in a range from $30k to $100K boats. In my book that represents a pretty inclusive range a guy such as swo104 who has a $100K budget.

Then there is the discussion of the Dickenson Company. For the record, the Dickenson company actually died almost four years after stoppng production on the Farr 37''s. The company ceased production after it was sold to investors outside of the family that originally owned the company. That company tooled up and produced a whole new line of high end traditional cruisers. These were beautifully built and wonderfully finished but Dickenson lost their shirt on them. The final death nell came in the recession of the late 1980''s and early 1990''s.

Dickenson''s brief stint producing the Farr 37''s (which you will note I did not advocate and I do not especially like) was actually quite profitable. These boats sold in large numbers compared to the production numbers on Dickenson''s then current production line of cruisers. They were then state of the art IOR era race boats. They went of production when the IOR rule was rewritten. 

BUT, It was the high profitability of the Farr 37''s that drew the out-of-town investors to Dickenson and they eventually bought the company and owned it when it went broke. At least that is the story that I have always heard up here on the Chesapeake. 

I also never put down wooden boats and have no axe to grind against inexpensive boats that allow the ''average guy'' out on the water. When I lived in Florida (both coasts over a 10 year period) I owned and restored a hard chine OK Dinghy that I bought for $125, a wooden lapstrake Folkboat that I bought for $400 and a 1939 Stadel Pilot class cutter (that was so beautiful that she could bring tears to your eyes just looking at her)which I bought for $2500. These boats were quite affordable and afforded me great pleasure in the steadier breezes of South Florida. I have always been indebted that despute my sometimes meager income I could just get out there and sail. So, I don''t look down on people for the boats they choose to sail, but that does not mean that I want to own or even suggest that anyone else own, some of the miserable sailing craft that are out there in the used boat market. Nor does it mean that I feel the urge to sugarcoat an opinion when someone asks for an opinion. 

To answer Rich''s comment and question, "Nothing can equal the pleasure of a fast boat; but, you don''t need to be ''state of the art'' or nervously adhereing to the latest transitory ''fads'' to enjoy oneself.... and still enjoy the full essence of sailing, more in enjoyment of the "trip" than hurrying manic-like to the destination. Why the rush?" I basically agree with the sentiment of his post and in most ways it is consistent with the boats that I recommended earlier so I don''t see where he is coming from. I will note again that the list of proposed boats span 20 years and the list stops about 10 years ago. I don''t see these as being "''state of the art'' or nervously adhereing to the latest transitory ''fads''". For the most part, the boats that I suggested repesent a point in an evolution that has taken place over a period of 123 years and evolved from the work of some of the best yacht designers during this long period of time; Nat Herreshoff, Starling Burgess,Olin Stephins and Phillip Rhodes, and to name a few. 

I also don''t agree that getting the most performance from a boat represents, "hurrying manic-like to the destination." To further answer Rich''s question, "Why the rush?" It is not about rushing. To me its about good seamanship which includes getting what you can out of boat. I personally enjoy voyaging under sail without running my engine. (I say so as a premise of my recommendations so that someone reading my comments can filter them through that perspective.) On the Chesapeake that means good light air performance and a good turn of speed or else limiting your cruising grounds and sailing days to a much smaller sellection. 

But even in Red''s neck of the woods, a turn of speed makes a big difference in safety and motoring time, at least when I lived there. Back then I owned the Stadel Cutter mentioned earlier. To sail from Sarasota to Venice in her meant setting sail at early light and flogging hard all day long to slip in before dark. In those days it was tricky getting into Venice after dark as the channel tended to wander a bit and bore little resemblance to the charts or marks. In a more modern design, like my current boats, this is an easy hop that can be typically be made on 3 or 4 hours without running the engine.

And to Red''s point about the wooden Dickenson winning a race against more modern designs, I suppose that could have happened. I have won races in really old technology on corrected time, getting in a metaphorical ''week and a day'' later, but that did not mean that there was a bit of beer left in the keg or that the buffet was not ravished when we got in. Sail what you like, but don''t put others down for chosing to sail something that is a bit more modern and better suited to where they chose to sail.

Respectfully
Jeff


----------



## doubleplay

Well said Jeff.
True gentlemanlike.......
Fair Winds


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## TSOJOURNER

jeff,
well said.
however, kimberlite reads my e-mail
(she is a tartan 37) and you hurt her little feelings.
did you get to see her website http://kimberlite1.homestead.com?
eric


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## BigRed56

Ahoy, Jeff I understand your confusion about my comments when I went back and re-read your initial reply and the question to which you put your considerable experience. Possibly its what you don''t say sometimes that got on my nerves. Sailing is not about speed or performance or money. Sailing is not about blisters or ventilation or how deep the water is. A sailor can buy the most miserable performing blister eaten rusted hulk for 100,000 dollars and be happy. All the rest is just salesmanship and egos. I poked you in the side so to speak about the Dickerson''s and the Chesapeake because I thought your comments to narrow. You have a great following here at sailnet and I thought to remind you that not everyone has to follow the pied pipers of the industry or even should. Let me ask you a question , which of the boats on your list are 2001 models of any of the companies you mentioned? My mom used to wash out my diapers in the Chesapeake in 1956 so I''d say I have as much local experience with the bay as anyone. My point about keels and water depth was that the Chesapeake is not on scale a shallow water bay . Possibly I was ignorant about the 7 foot and winged keels you mentioned which were prevelant in the industry at the time? ? I thought the original question meant new not what you can afford in the used market. My point being if you can''t buy a new sailboat with a hundred thousand dollars what is the point? My point is Dickersons were and are great crusing boats. My point is crusing is not about speed or ratings or getting what you can out of a boat. But hey thats just my opinion.


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## macphergus

This is a great dialog - I am "in the same boat", looking for a Chesapeake cruiser, sometimes going down the coast. I''ve got a bead on a Hunter 375 - I''ll let you know how it goes.

MacPhergus


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## TSOJOURNER

I once spent 3 weeks crewing aboard a Dickerson 37'' center cockpit ketch... fell in love with it after the first 24 hours, and that experience was my primary reason for choosing a center cockpit ketch as my next boat


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## BarryLevy

Found a great 1986 Tayana 37. Question...with the light air in Newport Beach, California and that my next purhase will be for coastal crusing is this the right choice? It does have a 50 Perkins, so that under power might be OK (Newport to Catalina Island is 70% under power and 30% under sail). Great condition and equipment and under $100,000. It is located in Northern California.

Some are telling me to go to a faster and easlier-maintence production boat.

Any ideas?


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## RichH

Quite a few of T37s in the SD area make the trip regularly. Like any boat a fair bottom, smoothly applied bottom paint and precise sail shaping will keep a T37 sailing in light conditions. For super light winds many T37 sailors simply drop the staysail and use a large genoa for enhanced light air performance, as the stays''l set under a jib becomes very tricky to correctly set when going upwind. A feathering prop will make LOTS of difference in upwind light air sailing. A cruising spinnaker is of real benefit. The boom on a T37 is quite heavy and you really need to play the boom topping lift and main traveller, just as you would do on any heavy boat with a large spread of sail. Consider to join and ''drop-in'' to the Tayana eMail discussion group here on Sailnet, and pose your questions there.


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## TSOJOURNER

Jeff H is the expert of experts and I mean that but he I know a few C&C''s better than he knows every boat in the world. Most of the C&C''s are not "on off". They are production boats made for the general racer / cruiser market at that time.

If I had the money I would buy that C&C 37 CB mentioned right here. I had a chance for one at $50K. They seem to be going up in price and not down. That is a special boat. I don''t think Jeff H knows that boat well. They only draw 5'' and will go like heck. Nice rod rigging and a tall stick. It''s a sailors boat.

This is not to say that the Express 37 is not a great boat but like it was pointed out it draws a lot.


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## Lahr

Pity that no one has mentioned a Mark 1 Sabre 38. If you know this boat you will know how big the oversight! Good luck. What a trove of valuable information has been accumulated! Jack


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## TSOJOURNER

For your cruising area, just about any boat will do. To steal a quote from author Don Casey, "buy the boat that makes your heart sing."


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## TSOJOURNER

Please go to the " www.a1line.com "
Thanks.


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## Jeff_H

Heck, where did this come from?


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## TSOJOURNER

Denr, 

People like myself read these forums in order to learn from other sailor’s experience, and knowledge. We are looking for useful, credible arguments supported by tangible facts. You lose all credibiltiy with people like myself when you make unsubstantiated criticism of Beneteaus, Hunters and Catalinas. 

If you have something worthwhile to contribute, please do. If not, please don’t waste my time, and that of other interested readers.

Thanks 

Dave


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## Denr

Ariel...now wasn''t that a character in one of Walt Disney''s fantasy movies? I just returned from the Strictly Sail Show in Chicago and came to the conclusion by my observation that the people that design and build the mediocre boats you love so dearly, have probably never cruised, raced or for that matter sailed on one of their creations! It is not only the three biggest sailboat builders in the states that are guilty of this, but also many other builders from Europe. It seems as if the design emphasis on the new production boats is on dockside living and entertainment rather than service/maintainability, quality of craftsmanship, creative and beautiful designs, and most importantly good sailing characteristics. Some of the more noteworthy oversights were:

-Lifelines way to short to serve their purpose, stanchions poorly fastened to the deck.
-Wingding keels that appear to be designed for draft, not hydrodynamic performance
-Picnic tables cluttering up the cockpit
-Cheesy hardware
-Dual wheels with engine controls only at one pod
-Anchor lockers with poorly designed handles and hardware
-Huge cavernous cabins with no handholds and very little storage
-Winches and turning block placement in and around the cockpit based on convienence rather than their function.
-Engines very difficult to service, even for simple stuff like oil changes.
-Huge fixed ports that look as if they could be stove-in by a big wave.
-Non-skid so poorly designed it’s doubtful it is functional.
-Sinks set outboard in the galley that would never drain when the boat is heeled over.
-Shallow and small cockpit lockers barely big enough for a few dock lines and a maximum of two fenders.
-Roller shade main sails.

The above are things that can be seen, how much attention do you think is paid to those details that are out of sight? Makes me nervous!

As far as wasting your time Mr./Ms Ariel, you can choose to read my posts or not, I don’t care. It sounds as if you might be living in fantasy land anyway if you truly believe that the Benehuntalinas are great boats, at best they are a way to get out on to the water and that is alright in my book! For my money, I want something better.


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## TSOJOURNER

what do you think of the amel?
thanks
eric


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## TSOJOURNER

Totally coincidental, I''m wishing to trade up and my boat ''Daze Off'' (an aluminium 3.5ft draft Bermudan Cutter) is for sale. Before you decide, at least have a look at <http://us.geocities.com/moredazeoff/>
and then you''ll be able to see what £100,000 buys
Fair Winds
E-mail anyways.
Mike


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## TSOJOURNER

Though this is an old thread, it started out with some very helpful posts.

The question is still a good one. Now that a few years have passed, what are today's recommendations for a high-quality performance cruiser for under $100k?


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## Canibul

Just curious, but what do you guys have against catamarans?


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## SailorMitch

Canibul said:


> Just curious, but what do you guys have against catamarans?


Nothing a sawz-all wouldn't fix.

Just kidding. I like them in theory, but have yet to find one that isn't ugly. Personal opionion only. Other opinions may vary.


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## Tropiccafe

Sailing the ICU and the Chesapeake bay in your perfect boat is just wonderful. A perfect boat is of course never to be had. We are not talking blue water ocean crossing boats to say the least. Buying a heavy and deep draft boat would be a mistake. You need to cross many shallow areas in the ICW and need to manover into and out of slips with tight clearances with the wind and current so a full keel is out. Hunters do offer updated living spaces especially for families and are easy to steer into those tight slips. You will get more boat with a Hunter for the money. Buying new is desireable with the warranty that comes along with the boat for peace of mind.


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## TSOJOURNER

Why don't look at a clean late 1980's Morgan Center Cockpit 40 footer. It will serve your purposes and would be a perfect boat for sailing the Chesapeake.


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## cardiacpaul

*what would i buy with a 100k...*

First, I'd buy some booze, then, some broads...

then I'd blow the rest.

Oh, you were talking about a boat?


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## TSOJOURNER

cardiacpaul said:


> First, I'd buy some booze, then, some broads...
> 
> then I'd blow the rest.


The first part is certainly a cost-effective way to rock back and forth. 

But I'm curious what you'd do with the rest.


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## PalmettoSailor

swo104 said:


> Hi all, I''m looking to buy a cruiser for the Chesapeke bay. I have about $100,000 to spend. I''m not planning to race, but I may be interested in cruising down the ICW in the off season.
> I''m interested in knowing what everyone''s out there recommends, also knowing that I would prefer something in the 34-40 foot range.


There is a '87 Hallberg-Rassy 352 in Annapolis advertised on Yachtworld for $115,000. That would be on my list to check out if I had $100k buring a hole in my pocket.


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## pigslo

Even though the original post is 5 years old, it speaks volumes of where new entrants in this hobby and old sailors stand both then and today. If you have 100k to spend on a boat and are new to the hobby, you are NOT ready to buy. Put your money in the bank and go out and charter every weekend with the interest on your money. Fly to places unknown and sail on other boats. Find a freind that owns an old boat and always working on it and crawl around in the bilge handing him wrenches (you will learn something about construction). Learn a little about the systems on a boat in general terms....sails, rigging, engine,anchor, electrical.... After you have done all that then ask the question.
While that seems like a lot of effort, when you are done you can evaluate the answers that come from the many blowhards on this and other boards as valid or bullsh*t.

I am not sure why anyone would ask a bunch of strangers with no stake in the outcome how to spend 100k anyways. Can anyone way in that took advice on how they spent their money after relying on strangers and how did it all turn out?

There, I feel better now, if I can just get down off this soapbox without busting my arthritic a**.

pigslo


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## TSOJOURNER

But don't you see Pigslo? That is what makes Sailnet so completely entertaining and hilarious. I do wonder if the guy just gave up and bought a Horse.


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## TSOJOURNER

But I still think $100k on booze and broads is excessive and probably downright unhealthy. 

pigslo, nice rant. I totally get what you're saying and I, personally, intend to take my time buying a boat (if ever). However, I'm no longer between 10 and 50, so my time to "mess around" and explore all of the aspects of the sport are limited to a decade of weekends and (hopefully) a long retirement that includes a lot of time on the water.

It's like you only see old farts driving Ferraris at 55 mph. By the time you can afford to buy the good toys, it's too late to truly appreciate them. However, by the time I'm ready to buy a boat, those going for $100k today may be around $20k, so it's never too early to start the research.


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## cardiacpaul

but seriously folks, it'd be a Valiant 40 (just cuz)


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## yotphix

If anyone is advising someone on how to spend a given amount on a used boat don't forget to tell them to subtract 20 percent from their budget for repairs, updates and upgrades. Even for a new boat you'll be dropping a fair stack for life preservers, flares, and other stuff you will need if it's your first boat.


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## PBzeer

While it would be foolish to buy any given boat, just because a bunch of strangers say it's the "right" boat, if they give thoughtful and concise reasons for that boat, it can be a good learning tool for the uninitiated. For those who didn't grow up around sailing and sailboats, the learning curve can be daunting. And though some questions may seem silly to the experienced, that isn't necessarily so for the person asking. As the saying goes,....there's no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers.

It seems like the focus now days is more on ridiculing the poster, than giving usable advice.


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## pigslo

No ridicule toward the poster whatsoever. I gave sound advice on a process that would get them to a place to make their own educated decision on how to spend 100k. The post is 5 years old so we are talking 125k now in 2001 dollars. Not an amount to spend on the advice of strangers that all have no stake in the outcome and cannot possible know the buyers agenda adequatley. Yes the process I laid down was a bit more involved then just writing a check, but even a shortened version of what I sugest will yield better results then asking this forum. Of course the buyer could always get the boat dart board from West Marine. You know the one that has all the brands and ages and prices.

pigslo


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## cardiacpaul

and I'd still buy the booze....
for the broads.


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## TSOJOURNER

Hey bportr;
Home Depot would have a rugged picnic table for your Bene 40.7 & you could use it as an alternate anchor too. And if you had too many overnite guests, you could throw a tarp over it and it could also be another bunk. How about those beans?


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## TSOJOURNER

*100,000 ay*

Well there is a very nice 41' C&C 1987 for sale rcryachts.com check it out and let me know what you think....


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## Robby Barlow

olysailor said:


> Well there is a very nice 41' C&C 1987 for sale rcryachts.com check it out and let me know what you think....


There are some more very good ideas here !


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## camaraderie

Oly...welcome...note the DATES of the posts you are responding to.


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## chucklesR

For 100k - a Used Gemini 105mc, if you can find one in that price range. Gemini's are consistently the best value you can buy in a catamaran, and every thing else is just a lead mine waiting to sink.
Oh BTW the Gemini meets or exceeds every one of Jeff H's previous 'numbers' for light air, heavy air, PHRF factors etc, and with A/C, queen sized beds and 'style'


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## Gryzio

*Wow this is interesting*

As old as this thread is, the boats mentioned, should be even better deals now.


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## sailingdog

Chuckles-

Be nice... it's bad enough that they own leadmines.. 


chucklesR said:


> For 100k - a Used Gemini 105mc, if you can find one in that price range. Gemini's are consistently the best value you can buy in a catamaran, and every thing else is just a lead mine waiting to sink.
> Oh BTW the Gemini meets or exceeds every one of Jeff H's previous 'numbers' for light air, heavy air, PHRF factors etc, and with A/C, queen sized beds and 'style'


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## chucklesR

On the other hand, a Telstar 28 goes new for under 100k 
Friend of mine just dumped his corsair 28, I've got him going to PCI with me this weekend


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## sailingdog

Can't stand up in a Corsair... doesn't come with a real marine head or a galley—so no second home credit for it either... and they're a lot wetter to sail than a Telstar.


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## TSteele65

Here's my choice:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...ed=-1&ftid=0&man=hinckley&slim=quick&is=false


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## 2Gringos

I'm with ChucklesR....in fact, that's about what I have mentally budgetted for a Gemini when we get ready to move on it. One of my probs is that I will have to fly up to probably Florida to buy it, and then sail it all the way back to the TCI. How's THAT for a shakedown cruise?

Chuckles..I have seen them with outboards, and with a diesel drive leg...I am leaning toward an outboard powered one. Whats your take on that?

And I didnt realize the two in-hull beds were Queen size. I was actually thinking of turning one of those places into a small workshop and storage.


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## chucklesR

I refer to the master cabin queen sized (salon drop down is a full queen sized too). 
In hull beds are doubles at 44 inches wide, most couples use them for storage areas - our stbd side is galley storage, port side is our guest cabin and 'toy storage'.
Outboards used on older models are okay (the new Tomkat 9.7 catamaran uses ob's) - I want and prefer the diesel so I have electrical generation beyond the 4amp per OB that is the normal output in that range.

Some with ob's have single 40hp tohatsu's - I'd go with twin 9.9 yahama's if repowering, enough for hull speed at reasonable fuel consumption/rpm, redunancy, advantage of twin engines for steering etc.. and you can pop one off and use it for the dinghy saves bucks too 

I've mounted my 2.5 hp honda ob to the port side (non- swim ladder side) and used it to dock my boat when the fuel pump died - flat water and calm winds marina side it'll push my boat at 3 kts.


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## Jeff_H

The problem that I have with the Gemini's for the Chesapeake is their worse than poor light air performance, slow speed at least compared to a similar displacement monohull, poor windward performance, quick motion in a chop, and the near imposibility to find a slip for them at a reasonable price (you can rent a slip for a 45 footer for what a catamarran slip costs in Annapolis). What I like is their shoal draft. 

Then again, perhaps that's just me.

Jeff


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## JohnRPollard

Hey JeffH,

Earlier in this very old thread you recommended the J40. Then I came across this, which made me chuckle:



Jeff_H said:


> You may have missed the sailing venue that this boat is being proposed for but, while Dana 24''s might make sense in some sailing venues, and for some people''s wishes, they are next to useless as sailboats during the light air and short chop that is so common during most of our summer. They are also way over priced for what they have to offer to the average coatal cruiser. Also plant a long keel boat in the Chesapeake Bay''s sticky bottom and you are more likely to be stuck for a long while.
> 
> I also strongly disagree with the idea that a Dana 24 makes sense for a first boat. I suggest that a more responsive design will teach a beginner a lot more about how to really sail. Then, after a few years of experience, if this now ''intermediate'' sailor decides that their ideal boat is a short, over-priced boat that only sails well in long duration swells or flat water and winds between 12 and 18 knots, but which really looks jaunty, perhaps then the Dana 24 makes sense. Jeff


We owned a Dana and sailed it around Chesapeake Bay for four years. It was a great Bay cruiser, and performed ably in all the conditions we encountered. With 3'10" draft, we could go many places that are off limits to the deep draft boats, all with comfort. As you'd expect, it was especially competent in medium to heavy air, but it was not the light air pig you paint it to be.

On one sultry summer morning, under sail we cast off a mooring in Annapolis harbor and followed a J42 (successor to the J40) out the channel to the Severn River, they under sail also. As it turns out, they were heading south as were we, so we sailed the same course to Thomas Point. It was VERY light air, oily/glassy conditions. Before we reached Tolly Point Shoal, we had caught them and remained even all the way to Thomas Point. We were flying mainsail and Yankee. They were flying mainsail and asym spinnaker ("flying" is a generous description: it was hoisted but doing very little for them). At Thomas Point Light, still only even with us, they turned on the engine and motored while we continued to sail.

I've sailed on many boats, racers, cruisers, multihulls, etc. By any standard, the Dana is an able, admirable boat, worth every penny, and if I didn't need more space for a growing family, I'd still have one. I would recommend it for the Chesapeake Bay, the ICW, the East Coast and beyond, provided you do not have a requirement for lots of internal volume.

Clearly you would not agree, but I just wanted to provide some balance to your earlier comments.

P.S. We never ran aground in our Dana, so didn't get a chance to test how well it would unground.


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## CBinRI

This thread is older than my dog. And my dog is a black lab with a white beard.


----------



## sailingfool

*Huh? Performance?*



JohnRPollard said:


> ...We owned a Dana and sailed it around Chesapeake Bay for four years. It was a great Bay cruiser, and performed ably in all the conditions we encountered. ....On one sultry summer morning, under sail we cast off a mooring in Annapolis harbor and followed a J42 (successor to the J40) out the channel to the Severn River, they under sail also. As it turns out, they were heading south as were we, so we sailed the same course to Thomas Point. It was VERY light air, oily/glassy conditions. Before we reached Tolly Point Shoal, we had caught them and remained even all the way to Thomas Point. We were flying mainsail and Yankee. They were flying mainsail and asym spinnaker ("flying" is a generous description: it was hoisted but doing very little for them). At Thomas Point Light, still only even with us, they turned on the engine and motored while we continued to sail.
> 
> I've sailed on many boats, racers, cruisers, multihulls, etc. By any standard, the Dana is an able, admirable boat, worth every penny, and if I didn't need more space for a growing family, I'd still have one. I would recommend it for the Chesapeake Bay, the ICW, the East Coast and beyond, provided you do not have a requirement for lots of internal volume.
> 
> Clearly you would not agree, but I just wanted to provide some balance to your earlier comments.....


God knows what circumstances might account for the story you relate regarding the J42, it certainly is not that the Dana 24 has decent light air performance, let alone in the same universe as that of a J42 whose skipper is awake. It's great you like the boat, good for you, but don't try to dress up a sailing pig as a performer, pleeeazzze..


----------



## chucklesR

Jeff,

Gemini's not good at light air performance? 
Ever sail one? And yes, I am aware of your background which is why I can't believe you said that. I made 4kts in 6kts of breeze, 40 off the wind, screacher and main. Sneeze at that. 
SA/D is around 22. In a similar displacement (10k lbs) mono (and that if mono is a pure race boat then that is a BS comparision, Gemini's are pure cruiser by design brief). Show me a honest to god cruiser with sa/d of 22 or better!

Windward - I can point to 35 degrees of the wind, and make better than half the wind speed on average days, allowing for wave action.

Slip cost - my slip cost 2400 a year - is 300 feet from my house (altho there is a creek between me and it) and I personally know of 4 other slips available to me less than 10 miles from my home for under 3k a year.

Quick motion in a chop is relative and related to loading at the bow/stern for pitch - the roll motion is related to form stability and I think is much better than 45 degrees of heel. I've never spilled a drink on my worst day (35kts, 4-5 ft short and steep waves) and I don't have cup holders . 
Do I get bridge slam, yes - does your bow plunge and slam - yes. Same difference. I launched my hunter 30 off waves enough to know it's all the same on the Bay.

Will I race a Farr 38? no as it's apples and oranges; Can you make ice, have A/C and honestly sleep 8? I can, in comfort and style.
I have howerver beaten Bendy/hunter/catalina 45's across the bay, and many a Pearson/Bend/CC/CS/Cat/Hunter around the bouy's during my yacht club's friday night races.

Is it a perfect boat - there is no such thing; all have faults. I submit tho that the ones you choose to highlight are not factual and I'll be glad to demonstrate.


----------



## JohnRPollard

sailingfool said:


> God knows what circumstances might account for the story you relate regarding the J42, it certainly is not that the Dana 24 has decent light air performance, let alone in the same universe as that of a J42 whose skipper is awake. It's great you like the boat, good for you, but don't try to dress up a sailing pig as a performer, pleeeazzze..


Sailingfool,

Obviously the J42 is a faster boat, but I related the anecdote to show that rated boat speed is not the only factor in how well a boat performs overall. The primary purpose of my post was to provide a counterbalance to Jeff's indictment of the Dana and its supposed poor suitability for Chesapeake Bay. Feel free to leave or take the anecdote for what it's worth, but this probably isn't the best thread to debate the pros/cons of the Dana 24. I simply felt it was fair to provide an alternative view from that which Jeff expressed.

You can watch the "sailing pig" wallow here:

http://www.tiddlycove.bc.ca/news/index.cfm/2007/12/21/VIDEO-Singlehanding-KiteCam


----------



## chef2sail

JohnRPollard

This is off the thread a lttle. Your video is great. Explain how you set up the kite to make it. What did you use to film it with and how, Facscinating. I was looking for fa,iliar Chesapeake land, but alas saw none. Where are you out of. I am in Rock Creek off the Patapsco.

Dave


----------



## JohnRPollard

Dave,

My apologies for not clarifying the source of the link. That was not my video, but appears to be a west coast Dana 24 owner who used a "kite-cam" to film himself sailing in and around the Channel Islands, as well as on an ocean passage (presumably in a race to Hawaii). I don't know how he did the "kite-cam", but I do think it's pretty neat.

In the interest of full-disclosure, in the first clip of his boat, he appears to be motorsailing: The throttle is forward, the transmission is engaged forward, and there is discharge from the engine cooling outlet off the stern. The subsequent shots appear to be strictly sail powered.

We are upper-mid Bay, out of the West River/Galesville.


----------



## sailingdog

Chef2sail-

That isn't JRP's video IIRC. If you google for "Dana 24 kitecam" you'll get the website of the guy who did it. 

I see Jrp responded before I did...


----------



## sanctuarysam

TSteele65 said:


> Here's my choice:
> 
> http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...ed=-1&ftid=0&man=hinckley&slim=quick&is=false


i tell ya..one purty boat that hinckley is..
if i ever make it big..that's my nameplate..or maybe a '68 morgan 41...
or a swan....
sigh


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## bestfriend

Sam, how about this classic? There is one in the Bay for 50k, you could add 50k of stuff!
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...1183151969000&photo_name=Photo+1&photo=1&url=


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## sanctuarysam

bestfriend said:


> Sam, how about this classic? There is one in the Bay for 50k, you could add 50k of stuff!
> http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...1183151969000&photo_name=Photo+1&photo=1&url=


she is so typical of the mid 60's columbias, cals and morgans..love that sheer..and anything in the s&s line-up..well..count me in..
bet she can give ya one nice dry ride though..
don't know about anyone else..but at this time of year i love looking at boats...


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## Tumblehome32

How about a Sunfish and 96 ounces of gold?


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## sanctuarysam

*96 ounces of gold on the sunfish..96 ounces of gold,take one down...*



Tumblehome32 said:


> How about a Sunfish and 96 ounces of gold?


sunfish may be a little iffy out in a blow..although, the 96 oz of gold..hmmm..tough choice, i think i'll stick w/ the morgan 41..late 60's vintage. the gold probably doesn't point very well either


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## mputegnat

*Or $50,000 today*



SHIMSHON said:


> 2500 shares of Bank of New York!! Then with the profits buy my boat for $195,000.


Or, as it turns out, you'd have maybe $50k after last month!


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## Jeff_H

_"bet she can give ya one nice dry ride though.."_ Quote sanctuarysam

Regrettably, Sanctuary Sam having spent a lot of time sailing on these older long overhang boats of that era, they were miserably wet to sail compared better examples of more modern design. They just plain threw a lot of spray and it always seemed to make it back to the cockpit.

Jeff


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## kwaltersmi

I'll play. Give me a Hans Christian 33 for about $75k and use the remaining $25k to customize it or just keep in the cruising kitty. I love the pullman berth, though many disagree.


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## JohnRPollard

Kwalt,

Here's hoping you get that HC33 someday. I've seen you mention it enough over these months that I perceive it's not a whim on your part. 

I was aboard one once and it is indeed a lovely boat anyone would be proud to own. P.S. I kind of like the pullman too.


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## northbay

Denr... you need to stop displaying your lack of knowledge on these boats.
Not a go-around the world boat but give it a break, they'll work well for the stated purpose.


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## eMKay

Probably a new Bendytoy 31, that thing is sexy. Or if I want to cruise the opposite end of the spectrum, a used PSC 31.


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## tommyt

See, Denr gets crap for something he said 7 years ago. However, I don't think he has bought one yet!


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## TSOJOURNER

> What would you buy for $100,000?


I'd spend 15K of it on a boat and buy property with the rest. In five years I'd sell the property for 175k and buy a slightly nicer boat.


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## wind_magic

SHIMSHON said:


> 2500 shares of Bank of New York!! Then with the profits buy my boat for $195,000.


Hope the OP did not do this ...


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## bestfriend

Sailormann said:


> I'd spend 15K of it on a boat and buy property with the rest. In five years I'd sell the property for 175k and buy a slightly nicer boat.


Your going to have to wait a lot longer than five years to make over 100% profit on your house.


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## Stillraining

Not much...The average around here is 8 years...

But you caNT BUY SQUAT FOR 75K EITHER...tHATS AN AVRAGE DOWN PAYMENT ANY MORE..

Oh Fiddelsticks this darn caps key...


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## bestfriend

Stillraining said:


> Not much...The average around here is 8 years...


In this market? Do you guys have oil wells in your basements?


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## Stillraining

LOL...Well maybe I should have said "use too"...

Ya maybe it will be 80 now...good point...


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## TSOJOURNER

thank god i'm homeless and the boat is paid for. the poor bastards (casino dealers) i work with went on a spending spree when they were making 100k during the last 3 years. now theyre regretting buying that 3rd house, jaguar Mercedes etc. do i feel sorry for them?...did i just say something? i'll stick to my 30 yo boat and 10 yo 4x4


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## serenity4u2

*Invest wisely*

Originally Posted by SHIMSHON 
2500 shares of Bank of New York!! Then with the profits buy my boat for $195,000.

Ignore that advice... Just look at merl Lynch and worst lehman...lol....

IMHO- any boat is an investment in life style and not purse... Buy what you can afford to purchase, maintain and most importantly use for family enjoyment...

Best of luck and enjoy.. Make memories with your family! A much better investment then investing in the bank of new york...


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## ichiben

Hookers and blow. 
Or I might suggest buying my lovely 23 columbia if I could bare to part with it for such a paltry sum.


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## eMKay

I poked around in a Bendytoy 31 at the Toronto boat show, it is really sexy in person. I wonder if Beneteau is using this design for all future models, because I love it. Now if only they would put a real lead keel on it. No complaints about the rest of the boat, it seems to be a quality boat. Except the cabin sole seems a little cheaply made.










I also poked around in a Hunter 27x, it's not a boat I'm interested in but it has the same interior layout as the boats I am interested in, and it has plenty of room inside.


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## davidpm

Jeff_H said:


> Catalinas:
> Catalinas are common as dirt on the Chesapeake. They are everywhere! Of the big three boat manufacturers, this is my least favorite in all ways. Still Catalina has a strong following and are easy to find. While they would never be on my list for myself, they clearly work for others.
> Jeff


You obviously gave this a lot of thought.
What exactly takes the Catalina off your short list?


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## Sonofasonofasailor

Is the stripper pole on the Hunter 27 an option or standard equipment?

For $100k I would be looking at Dehlers, Sabres and Oysters...unfortunately the ones I like are up to about $150k. No matter, I'm not buying 'em at $100k so why stop there.


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## Alistair57

*What to buy*

Hi

I know this will probably get me kicked off of the forum but If I was going to spend 100k US I would invest in a Jim Brown Searunner. Not heard of them well they are Trimarans now I know this is akin to recommending devil worship but consider the following.

I cruise in the Hauraki Gulf in New Zealand. For about 50k of your US dollars I have just bought a 37' boat which can be beached when I want, has 4 permanent double bunks, a salon where I can sit and look out at the scenery. It cruises happily at 5-6 knots in any wind and will happily tootle along at 7-12 knots with little drama when the wind gets stiffer. If you drop the centerboard it will appear to point within 30 degrees of wind but when I checked on the GPS chart it was only 54 degrees which is not too bad. I haven't played with the 10' of main traveler but would anticipate we could improve if we used that. Everybody sits at least 8' from the water in a center cockpit. There is enough deck space to have a garden party and Tramps to lie and watch the dolphins. All in all I'm very pleased and consider it the best bang for buck I could buy.

I will be honest in that it does have one major flaw which may prove a deal buster in that berthing it's 20' of width may be a problem, fortunately I was able to find nice berth for about $US 30 a week.

Think hard before you dismiss these boats your hard earned cash is just that and you should get the most boat for your money. Coming late to sailing and with no preconceived ideas about what is a proper sailing boat, this was a no brainer. Particularly when I talked to a friend and he had been out in hurricane winds in a sister boat with waves breaking over the 45' mast.

It also sails reasonably easily single handed as I am 6'4 and am over 300lbs and I cope with no problem by myself.

Kind regards


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## sailingdog

Welcome Alistair57-

Always good to have another trimaran sailor aboard... 

You're talking about one of these beasties.


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## mrwuffles

how bout a nice island packet? i saw there motor sailer 32 at the norwalk ct show, that was a nice boat thought i was in a motor yacht with all the room and th pilot house


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## sailingdog

Umm... maybe you didn't read the OP of this thread, but the question is what you would buy if you had $100,000. Did you check the price on the IP SP... it's a good deal higher than that.



mrwuffles said:


> how bout a nice island packet? i saw there motor sailer 32 at the norwalk ct show, that was a nice boat thought i was in a motor yacht with all the room and th pilot house


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## zz4gta

ichiben said:


> Hookers and blow.
> Or I might suggest buying my lovely 23 columbia if I could bare to part with it for such a paltry sum.


lol, so you have hookers and blow inside your columbia 23? Now it all makes sense! The 100k is a steal!


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## jimmytc

I love my Beneteau 373.
I picnic anywhere.....especially dockside.
I don't have to suffer to enjoy sailing.....


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## rshepley

I think Benehuntalinas are fine, if you are blind and like sailing in boats that look like clorox bottles


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## zz4gta

welcome to last year...


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## hynes57

serenity4u2 said:


> Originally Posted by SHIMSHON
> 2500 shares of Bank of New York!! Then with the profits buy my boat for $195,000.
> 
> Ignore that advice... Just look at merl Lynch and worst lehman...lol.../QUOTE]
> 
> Note that the "buy Bank of New York shares" advice was given in 2001, long before the sub-prime fiasco and recent bank failures.


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## CruisingWolf88

I saw a nice Catalina 36 on Yachtworld the other day for something like 95000, I'd recommend a Catalina, they are great cruising boats. I've got a 1988 Catalina 30 tall rig that I cruise around the great lakes, Georgian bay area.


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## Bilikin

Read a lot of books by the folks that have sailed around the world... Pardey's, Hiscocks, etc. If you are doing the ICW, you need a boat with a mast less than 50 feet, a draft of less than 5 feet and a beam of less than 10 feet. You will also need to consider the maintinence, docking, repair and upkeep costs. So buy a boat around $30-40 K that is in great shape, has new sails and new motor, lots of new electronics and put the rest of the money in a market fund to fund your cruising life style. (Bigger is NOT better, more expensive is NOT better, shinney and lots of 'comfort' is NOT a better boat).


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## TQA

As this is a 10 year old thread the OP should have bought something a few years ago!


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## wolfenzee

For those that are worried about resale value, boats are not a financial investment, but more of a spiritual investment. I would not buy a new boat.
For modern design I would choose a Scanmar 40, I wonderful boat built by a Swedish company around 1990, fast roomy, comfortable and easy to sail, safe and great "sea boats". Their original sale price was $130,000 more than 20 years later they go for about $100,000 (so much for production boats not holding their value)
For a traditional design of about the same size, age and price, I would get a Han Christian 38 (this is the average price through a broker without looking around or finding a good deal). A Hans Christian 34 goes for waaay less than a 38 in the same condition, but I am comparing same size boats.
There were only 20 Scanmar 40s built and they are tough to find.


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## Gregrosine

All this noise about the "Benehuntalinas". Such snobbery. It gives sailors a bad name. Sailing a boat one enjoys in safety and comfort is the point. Look at the websites for some of those yachts mentioned earlier and you who'll see. Some of the same creature comforts. Gosh, some even have in mast furlers. That doesn't seem very sailor like does it?


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## SimonV

This thread is over 12 years old, But today you get more boat for your buck.


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## northoceanbeach

I want a beneteau.


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## northoceanbeach

I would buy the Nautor Swan for 85,000 in Buford Georgia on yacht world.


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## MarkSF

I'd get 25,000 cartons of Haagen Daz - not sure what flavour, though.


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## wolfenzee

Some Beneteaus try and emulate the racing hulls and are subsequently squirrely, while some tweak those lines enough to be more comfortable for the cruiser and defeat the purpose of performance.

For $100,000 I'd spend $30,000 on a boat, $15,000 on upgrades and keep the rest for a cruising budget.


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## wolfenzee

Some Beneteaus try and emulate the racing hulls and are subsequently squirrely, while some tweak those lines enough to be more comfortable for the cruiser and defeat the purpose of performance.

For $100,000 I'd spend $30,000 on a boat, $15,000 on upgrades and keep the rest for a cruising budget.


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## northoceanbeach

I'm assuming the OP has already set aside a cruising budget and the 100000 represents a fraction of his budget allotted for the boat. 

If I only had 100k I agree I would buy a 30k boat


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## benesailor

I'll keep my 93 Beneteau. I am amazed at how well built it is regardless what people say about Bene's. It always amazes me how well the factory systems have held up vs some of the older boats that i have been on/worked on(70's & 80's). I think it is a very well engineered boat. 
It sails well, maneuvers fantastic and is family friendly. 
I'd love a 2013 Jenneau 41DS though. ($303k)


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## zeehag

lol...i wouldnt buy anything else but i would upgrade and restore this one.. i love her. she is a comfortable cruiser, and doesnt sail half bad even with baggy old torn up sails.....


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## wolfenzee

I love my boat she is a sweet old girl, fun to sail, great performer. nice lines and a good sea boat....but I would like a bit more elbow room


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## Palm-Tree-Living

SHIMSHON said:


> 2500 shares of Bank of New York!! Then with the profits buy my boat for $195,000.


Smart answer for sure. . .


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## JulieMor

Lahr said:


> Pity that no one has mentioned a Mark 1 Sabre 38. If you know this boat you will know how big the oversight!


We looked at three Sabre 38 Mark I's recently. One had a split main cabin, I think they made about 25 of these. Not for everyone. Of the other two, one was a wreck and the other was very well kept. If owning a 30 year old boat doesn't bother you, this last one would keep many a sailor happy.

To the OP - if you do a search on YW and type in your parameters you'll get a lot of boats to peruse. The east coast is like a boat mall, plenty to choose from. But keep in mind not all boats are accurately presented on the Internet. Looked for signs of aged photos and be prepared if you go to see one.

I'd also recommend you call a local broker and ask for soldboats info once you whittle down your list to a manageable size. This will help you in the offer stage of the process.

I listed the boats that we took pics of that are still for sale in the boat buying assistance thread - last page. If any of those boats look good to you, PM me for pics and comments.

FWIW, I'm in complete agreement with those who recommend a boat that sails well in lighter air. Nothing can spoil a nice day sailing worse than having to turn to the iron genny.


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