# full battens for a monohull cruiser?



## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

hi folks. i have scheduled for my rig inspection and tune and i will be measuing the actual measurements for the fore and aft triangles. so, now is the time for sincere thought about sails.

i am considering running her as a sloop with a 100% jib; maybe set up as self tending.

i have also considered setting it up as a cutter with a 90% forestaysail and the smaller jib. the boat was designed and set up with the cutter option as a possibility. one thought about that is it has a lot of rig flexibility in different conditions. i could also set the ( smaller ) jib up as self tending. i like this option but then i'd probably have to use running stays and simpler is better.

i haven't decided yet about headsails. i will discuss these options with my rigger and, of course, the sails that the marina has ( which i can look through and choose what i want ) will have some bearing on what i do.

but my real question for this thread is about full battens in mainsails.

they are good for performance and i hear they reef well. this boat would not have had full batten mains and you usually only see multihulls using them but, i think it might be a good consideration. i have no intention of racing. i will be mostly cruising ( day sailing when i don't have time to go for more than an afternoon).

so, any thoughts about that option? one question is availability. i am thinking used catamaran sails. the only concern i have is the depth of the roach. i have a backstay and a lot of catamaran sails have a pretty deep roach. of course, i could use a sail with a slightly shorter luff but a deeper roach. for all around cruising a more moderate aspect sail is better, anyway. i think the original for this boat was fairly high aspect.

anyhow, if anyone has any input i'd be glad to hear it. thanks

ps. plus, catamaran sails are usually so colorful and pretty!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

catamaran sails have big roaches...no good for you unless modifying your rearstay to dual

in my opinion you only need a single reef point on a boat your size

full battens are not needed...but if you find one that fits for cheap go for it

pay attention to roach


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

We have had full batten mains on our boat over the past dozen years, but have moved to a combination of full (at the top) and partial battens lately because it's lighter. We race considerably, and like to think it makes a difference. The full batten sails did tend to last longer, but they were also buiit of heavier, more cruising-oriented material (dacron). Such sails may looked ok, wear-wise, for many years, even if the shape isn't still optimal.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jack.. as I understand it you're looking at used sails? In all likelihood sails from a catamaran will be too roachy, as Christian mentioned. Full battened sails are quieter, better behaved but heavier.. but really, if you find a sail with dimensions that match well, I think condition and fit are more important than full/regular/long battens. Simply pick the best sail that fits.

You may find in the long haul that only a 100% jib will be inadequate unless you're sailing in breezes over 10 knots most of the time - and even then it will probably only be satisfactory if you're beating. Off the wind it will all be a bit small/underpowered but if you get a spinnaker of some sort that will offset that issue a lot.

Definite handling advantage in keeping your headsails with only a minimum overlap - quicker, easier tacking even without going to the extra gear/cost of self tacking/tending arrangements.

I really think you're best off keeping her a sloop with the right mix of sails over trying to cobble up a double headed rig.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> catamaran sails have big roaches...no good for you unless modifying your rearstay to dual
> 
> in my opinion you only need a single reef point on a boat your size
> 
> ...


i am aware of that. it is, of course, a big issue since i have a backstay.

are you sure one reef would be enough? i don't really want to be overpowered in a squall out on the bay.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Im a fan of less reef points...there is more to do and damage if you get hit with big winds...in an untimely manner or if you reef late!

*that never happens btw, ever! jajaja*

If I where designing a good cruising sail for an around the world deal again I would only have 2 reef points not the common or recomended 3

1 that takes 25% off maybe 30% sail area and another that takes almost 80% off and the reasoning behind that is I have noticed rigging trysails or heavy weather storm sails on the mast often fail while being installed or gets too tricky...another track, taking sail outside etc

so Id prefer to use the main sail, reduced almost completely and make it into a storm trysail

ideally the upper triangle of the main would be heavily reinforced and the clew would be tied onto the boom using high tech line...boom made fast using mini preventers on each side of the cabin top or deck if possible ideally the clew would be placed to allo the boom to be made fast to the deck but that would mess with sail performance having a hole in the middhle of the sail but anywhoo...

in any case

regarding full battens...im very famiiliar with hobie sails...inn fact I have one here if you want pics...your boat might have a similar sized main but wont be sure

if its easy for you to rig up twin backstays go ahead and that will buy you some space...

and lastly regarding wind speed and strength although not feasible on all boats Im a big fan of spilling a full main on small boats versus reefing madness that is more a quick fix and racing scenario...as if the wind dies down again you have full power...but it also simplifies sailing for me.

that does not mean I dont like to reef, it means on small mid 20 footers(you are 27) I find that I like how the boat performs much better with a small correctly trimmed jib say a 100 percenter and I simply spill the main

I did this on my folkboat a lot as they like to be sailed like dinghys

what I mean about that is that foresail trim is much more important in heavy weather than the main is

its the jib that lets you attack the wind and keep correct speed and angle to the wind not the main

the main can be thought of as power in these scenarios not direction or control...with high winds you want less power but remain in control...direction most importantly.

so anyways

dont go crazy looking for 3 reef mains or full battens although like mentioned full batten mains are great

they make furling or flaking the main easy as pie...and they fall down much faster and easier...some light mains are a hassle if you ask me

and well like faster said look for best condition sails for your boat not specifics like full or partial battens etc...

id pay more attention to stitching, eyes, fabric condition than if it had full battens or not

but if you do go looking for full batten sails how about some dimensions so maybe we can search for some big roached battened sails from other boats?

jeje


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Jack.. as I understand it you're looking at used sails?


yes. that's right. with all that needs done, i figure used now and upgrade later. plus, depending on what sails the marina has, i may not have to pay for sails, immediately.



> In all likelihood sails from a catamaran will be too roachy, as Christian mentioned. Full battened sails are quieter, better behaved but heavier.. but really, if you find a sail with dimensions that match well, I think condition and fit are more important than full/regular/long battens. Simply pick the best sail that fits.


very good point



> You may find in the long haul that only a 100% jib will be inadequate unless you're sailing in breezes over 10 knots most of the time - and even then it will probably only be satisfactory if you're beating. Off the wind it will all be a bit small/underpowered but if you get a spinnaker of some sort that will offset that issue a lot.
> 
> Definite handling advantage in keeping your headsails with only a minimum overlap - quicker, easier tacking even without going to the extra gear/cost of self tacking/tending arrangements.


you may be right. summers in this region can be slow. however, i sail all year and you can get some seriously heavy weather and it can pipe up rather quickly.

the first consideration is safety and the experience of my crew. my girlfriend ( my most likely crew ) has never even stepped on board a boat til i went to look at this one. none of my friends has ever sailed on a boat. so, i want to avoid complexity. i have two spinnakers for the boat. i don't intend to try them out ( never used one before )until i have a competent crew.

i was thinking a 100% jib would have a larger range of usable conditions than a big jenny. slower in light airs but able to handle heavier winds. i really don't care about wiinning any races.

the trouble with going for a 150, or bigger, jenny is that you either have to roller reef ( which was my original thought ), which a lot of people don't seem to hold in high opinion, or someone needs to go forwards on a heaving foredeck to change it. my girlfriend has never been on a boat so i don't think sending her forwards is a great idea. but, she also doesn't know how to sail so i'm not hip on the idea of giving her the helm, in a situation, while i go change the sail.

that's where the idea of the cutter set up comes in. two headsails; one of moderate size and one smaller, both with roller furlers. no one need go forward to change the sails. you can sail under full canvass when it's light and have a flexible sail plan for when it's not. it has it's drawbacks. but, then, so does every option.[/quote]



> I really think you're best off keeping her a sloop with the right mix of sails over trying to cobble up a double headed rig.


that route does have it's benefits. no argument there.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Faster said:


> I really think you're best off keeping her a sloop with the right mix of sails over trying to cobble up a double headed rig.


Agree 1000%...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if you've never actually _SAILED_ this boat yet, right? Why would you be already considering changes in the designer's original sailplan?

It would help if you could offer some photos, or line drawing of the sailplan, for starters...

Where will you be sailing? If primarily on the Chesapeake, as Faster noted, going to a 100% or self-tacking headsail will leave you woefully underpowered most of the time... You describe your main as being "high aspect", and small headsails are generally not going to work very well with such a main, especially in a place like the Chesapeake, during the summer... Not to mention, doing something like adding roach to your main, while simultaneously reducing the size of your headsail, will likely only serve to increase weather helm when the breeze pipes up, or make the boat even more unbalanced if running DDW, wing & wing...

I love my full-battened main (and I'm mystified why you think they are not commonly seen on monohulls), but you are likely looking at considerable added expense in going that route... On boats around 30' or so, I think you really want to consider the addition of a Strong Track or similar to make a full-batten main work well, and while that's money well spent, it's not an inexpensive upgrade...

I realize it's a normal tendency when one acquires a new boat, but I'm a big believer in actually _USING_ the boat for a season or so, before embarking on a host of modifications or upgrades... Especially regarding stuff as elemental as the rig, or sailplan... You're gonna make far smarter decisions, and likely avoid spending money on changes that may not necessarily work or be worth the expense, by actually sailing the boat for awhile ...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> Im a fan of less reef points...there is more to do and damage if you get hit with big winds...in an untimely manner or if you reef late!
> 
> *that never happens btw, ever! jajaja*
> 
> ...


actually, the boat has a split backstay, so, it has two chainplates in the stern. i wouldn't think it would be too hard to do twin backstays. i will discuss that with the rigger. you think twin backstays would allow a deeper roach, if i find a full batten sail that, otherwise, fits?



> and lastly regarding wind speed and strength although not feasible on all boats Im a big fan of spilling a full main on small boats versus reefing madness that is more a quick fix and racing scenario...as if the wind dies down again you have full power...but it also simplifies sailing for me.


basically, a fisherman's reef. that's how i have always handled heavy weather. i never have had a boat with reef points. on the holiday 20, i use a fisherman's reef and, since it has a headsail ( unlike my dinghy ), if it gets too high for that, i drop the jib and sail under main alone. then i ease it, allowing the luff to lose shape a bit, if it gets high enough for it. you have a lot of control doing that. you can even hold her still on the water, bow to wind, by playing the main that way.

but, i do want to be able to reef enough to handle the worst the bay has to offer.
[/quote]



> that does not mean I dont like to reef, it means on small mid 20 footers(you are 27) I find that I like how the boat performs much better with a small correctly trimmed jib say a 100 percenter and I simply spill the main
> 
> I did this on my folkboat a lot as they like to be sailed like dinghys
> 
> ...


true. although i've never had a problem with a cat rigged dinghy or sailing the holiday under main alone.



> the main can be thought of as power in these scenarios not direction or control...with high winds you want less power but remain in control...direction most importantly.
> 
> so anyways
> 
> ...


good advice. you both agree on that point.  i am supposed to take measurements today but the weekend has been screwed up, so far, so there may be a short delay in that. but i will post measurements here, when i get them.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ok here is an idea and I HAVE seen it not common but here goes

make a baby sprit...out of nice strong wood plank...tie a simple galvanized wire or chain or rod down to the hull just above water level...with a nice stainless eye.

this sprit can serve as an anchor roller station or simply a stepping plate too etc when doing the titanic scenes with the girlfriend

BUT also it simply allow you to use another attachment point for sails

if you are really fancy you can rig a second stay using for simplicity sake 7x19 wire that is more flexy or even high tech line to a block that you can haul in tight...you can use the same attachment point as your forestay even though you aspect will be slightly bigger and not as good for upwind performance but you will have ways to mount different sails

now honestly 2 stays on a 27 footer is a bit too mch for me...but its your boat

for me hank on jibs or here is anothetr thought

rig up a club jib on a pole...self tacking...and then find a 130 small genny or omething for those 10knot days...

good options in my opinion

all other option require modufying the mast....if you put a solent stay or cutter rig you kind if have to add running stays or at least beef up the aft lowers or backstay as is

cheers


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> actually, the boat has a split backstay, so, it has two chainplates in the stern. i wouldn't think it would be too hard to do twin backstays. i will discuss that with the rigger. you think twin backstays would allow a deeper roach, if i find a full batten sail that, otherwise, fits?
> 
> basically, a fisherman's reef. that's how i have always handled heavy weather. i never have had a boat with reef points. on the holiday 20, i use a fisherman's reef and, since it has a headsail ( unlike my dinghy ), if it gets too high for that, i drop the jib and sail under main alone. then i ease it, allowing the luff to lose shape a bit, if it gets high enough for it. you have a lot of control doing that. you can even hold her still on the water, bow to wind, by playing the main that way.
> 
> but, i do want to be able to reef enough to handle the worst the bay has to offer.


true. although i've never had a problem with a cat rigged dinghy or sailing the holiday under main alone.

good advice. you both agree on that point.  i am supposed to take measurements today but the weekend has been screwed up, so far, so there may be a short delay in that. but i will post measurements here, when i get them.[/QUOTE]

if you have to plates out back all you need to to is get two stays to them...yes you need to buy some wire and it would be nice to see if your tang up top could accept to stays

have split stays will allow you have to have a big roach for mcuh more degrees than currently available

if the roacj goes back a lot straught back lie americas cup mains...then you nmight not be able to pull it off, they will hit the stays even if twin

if you are looking at roaches like on a hobie they are fuller mid section and curve slowly into the hed of the sail...

in any case you have options

I had a boat with a club jib and then like 5 headsails to chose from...I only used the club for simple out in scenarios and then a nice mylar kevlar 130%

great combo in my opinion

both used with full main...never reefed that puppy

this was on an excalibur 26


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Agree 1000%...
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if you've never actually _SAILED_ this boat yet, right? Why would you be already considering changes in the designer's original sailplan?


no. you are not wrong. i am trying to work up a sail plan that will be best for my needs. as it is, i don't have the sails the boat originally came with. i have bare poles. i have access to a number of sails that i can choose from. the marina i bought it from has agreed to that. they don't need them, anyway. but that means i have a clean slate.

the boat was designed with racing in mind. later versions of it were more cruiser oriented. i don't care about racing. i'm not going to be racing. i want safe cruising. don't get me wrong, i like a turn of speed. but, i am more concerned with safety than speed. i will be short handed, to the point of almost being single handed ( due to inexperienced crew ). usually, the only tasks i have crew do is handle the jibsheets and stern lines, anyway.

anyhow, knowing it's original set up was for racing, and not having headsails or main, i want to choose a sail plan that will fit my needs.

i do some have experience setting up a sail plan on a boat. so, it's not quite like some guy just randomly throwing different sails on. i realize that i will have to consider sail balance when i choose sails. i do drawings and figure out CE and CLR while designing a sail or sail plan. of course, things like CE and CLR really are theoretical guestimations that don't directly translate to the real world. you work with them but, without the appropriate modern computer tech, it's not a sure thing. i am old fashioned, low tech.



> It would help if you could offer some photos, or line drawing of the sailplan, for starters...


i will see what i can do about that...might take me a little. let me see what i can find. if i draw it out, it will take a little longer 



> Where will you be sailing? If primarily on the Chesapeake


you got it



> , as Faster noted, going to a 100% or self-tacking headsail will leave you woefully underpowered most of the time... You describe your main as being "high aspect", and small headsails


it should be noted that the fore triangle is between 40 and 50% of the LOA, which is one reason it can be rigged as a cutter. technically, the mast is positioned as in a cutter not a sloop. the boom isn't as long as the distance between the mast and the bottom of the forestay. it's also a masthead rig, not fractional. so, even a 100% jib is going to be bigger than the main. i will get you the claimed sizes.



> are generally not going to work very well with such a main, especially in a place like the Chesapeake, during the summer... Not to mention, doing something like adding roach to your main, while simultaneously reducing the size of your headsail, will likely only serve to increase weather helm when the breeze pipes up, or make the boat even more unbalanced if running DDW, wing & wing...


like i said, previously, i wouldn't choose sails without first considering that.



> I love my full-battened main (and I'm mystified why you think they are not commonly seen on monohulls)


around here, i haven't seen very many full batten sails on monohulls. in fact, i can't think of any i have personally seen. you see them all the time on catamarans.



> , but you are likely looking at considerable added expense in going that route... On boats around 30' or so, I think you really want to consider the addition of a Strong Track or similar to make a full-batten main work well, and while that's money well spent, it's not an inexpensive upgrade...


can you go into that further, please? i have never used full batten sails, before, so i can use as much info as i need.



> I realize it's a normal tendency when one acquires a new boat, but I'm a big believer in actually _USING_ the boat for a season or so, before embarking on a host of modifications or upgrades... Especially regarding stuff as elemental as the rig, or sailplan... You're gonna make far smarter decisions, and likely avoid spending money on changes that may not necessarily work or be worth the expense, by actually sailing the boat for awhile ...


if i already had sails, i would do just that. but, i don't. i am not sure what, if any, sails i will find i can use from the ones the marina will give me. and, if i have to buy sails, i might as well put some consideration into what i get.

this boat is like a blank slate. really, i have a hull and spars. that's it.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The standard rig dimensions are handwritten onto the bottom of the last page of this document:

http://www.richardanderson.net/TechSavvy/CAL_BOATS_files/Cal 27 Color Brochure.pdf


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> ok here is an idea and I HAVE seen it not common but here goes
> 
> make a baby sprit...out of nice strong wood plank...tie a simple galvanized wire or chain or rod down to the hull just above water level...with a nice stainless eye.
> 
> ...


not needed. these boats are designed to have a staysail added behind the jib. the mast is close to the center of the boat ( between 40 and 50% of the loa ), unlike with a sloop which carroes the mast more forwards. there are even attachment points for the additional stay. like on a cal 39. i will see if i can find a drawing of that cal 39 to show you.



> now honestly 2 stays on a 27 footer is a bit too mch for me...but its your boat
> 
> for me hank on jibs or here is anothetr thought
> 
> ...


http://http://www.sailnet.com/forums/members/michaelangel442-albums-misc-picture3697-cutterrig-cal-39.jpg

here you go. this is an image that MichaelAngel442 linked to about the cutter issue.

in fact, except for the coach roof/deck design ( it's not set up as a 'convertable' like mine ), this drawing could be an drawing of my boat. so, it gives you an idea of the sail plan. just ignore the inner stay, to see how it is set up, now. the keel is slightly different, though. just in shape, really.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> The standard rig dimensions are handwritten onto the bottom of the last page of this document:
> 
> http://www.richardanderson.net/TechSavvy/CAL_BOATS_files/Cal 27 Color Brochure.pdf


thanks for posting that. i have a brochure saved on my computer and i do have the stated dimensions but i can't be totally sure that those numbers are correct for my boat, until i measure. but, that does give anyone wanting to look over my sail plan a really good starting point. i really don't think mine will be different but 42 years is a long time for things to change in.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I forgot you mentioned in another thread you have those inner stay connections...

and now that I remember yu boat you are absolutely right you have a thin or high aspect ractio main...i.e small boom and a big foresail

so rigging an inner stay is more feasible and will not mess with your helm

if its easy I think a club jib works great on these boats and then simply when needed hank on a big one...130 plus

thats whay I would do

for mains whatever you can find...in the best condition you can afford

I know how you feel about not having a base to start with...without the original sails you can improve or modify or know if infact you are better off than stock

we did this with a few boats small keelers and basically it was just install stails see if they fit if so great if not look for something else jajaja


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

captain jack said:


> thanks for posting that. i have a brochure saved on my computer and i do have the stated dimensions but i can't be totally sure that those numbers are correct for my boat, until i measure. but, that does give anyone wanting to look over my sail plan a really good starting point. i really don't think mine will be different but 42 years is a long time for things to change in.


Also means you can cruise through the available inventory and cull out the sails that 'may' fit, then confirm precisely once you've confirmed the measurements.. look for sails that seem several inches too small.. they'll stretch.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> not needed. these boats are designed to have a staysail added behind the jib. the mast is close to the center of the boat ( between 40 and 50% of the loa ), unlike with a sloop which carroes the mast more forwards. there are even attachment points for the additional stay. like on a cal 39. i will see if i can find a drawing of that cal 39 to show you.
> 
> http://http://www.sailnet.com/forums/members/michaelangel442-albums-misc-picture3697-cutterrig-cal-39.jpg
> 
> ...


does you boat have the connections or not?

that cal 39 design is very similar to my boat()islander 36) inner stay installations are a common addition for offshore sailing


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

[URL="

this is what i am talking about with my sail plsan options. the one to the left is the cal39. in the middle is the cal27 set up as a cutter ( the way i would set it up ). on the right is as a sloop with 100% jib.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> does you boat have the connections or not?
> 
> that cal 39 design is very similar to my boat()islander 36) inner stay installations are a common addition for offshore sailing


yes. it's got the connections. i don't have a pic with that sail plan so i used the one he posted. if you go back to the thread, "looking for owners of 1971 cal 27", you will see that we had discussed the cutter option a little. i wouldn't even know about that option if it hadn't have been for Michael.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

good stuff man

Id fix up the stay since you have the connections and call it a day

yeah I rememeber way back when we were talking about it in your thread...been a while


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> good stuff man
> 
> Id fix up the stay since you have the connections and call it a day
> 
> yeah I rememeber way back when we were talking about it in your thread...been a while


that, it has


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> have split stays will allow you have to have a big roach for mcuh more degrees than currently available


Why would twin backstays permit a main with a greater roach to be carried? The angle of the backstay remains unchanged, no? If anything, twins would further complicate things, the roach now having to be passed inside of TWO shrouds with each tack, increasing chafe, and increasing the chance of hanging up on one of the backstays whenever the main was sheeted anywhere off of dead centerline...

Instead of trying to add roach, I think the OP should consider increasing the sail area of the main by lowering the excessive height of the boom... The pics from the brochure that Faster provided indicate a ridiculously high gooseneck/boom, to my eye - I can't see any reason for such height above the deck on that boat, at least as indicated in those pics...



captain jack said:


> [URL="http://
> 
> this is what i am talking about with my sail plsan options. the one to the left is the cal39. in the middle is the cal27 set up as a cutter ( the way i would set it up ). on the right is as a sloop with 100% jib.


Well, converting to a cutter will require a bit more than just "connections"... Is the foredeck attachment point tied into a bulkhead, or by a tie rod to the hull? And you'll need to configure running backstays, easier said than done on many boats...

I'm always perplexed why anyone feels the need for a cutter rig on a boat to be sailed on the Chesapeake, especially on a smaller, more nimble boat like yours... Unless you configure your inner stay to be easily removable, it will almost certainly result in your doing less sailing. With all the short tacking that sailing up into all the creeks, and into anchorages, that is a primary feature of Chesapeake cruising, dealing with tacking a cutter can be more of a PITA than it's worth...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

notice I explained or tried to WHAT KIND OF ROACH would be better

a roach that goes straight aft like americas cup foils(at a 90 degree angle) for example would in fact hit but but for reaching...beam reach all the way or close to broad you wouldnt a roach like a hobie would not inrerfere either

you can also for example use a main that is a foot short, lower the book like you say a foot or 2 if you can...add a nice big roach sail...that WILL NOT INTERFERE with the stays and call it good

just sayin...



also you would be able to easily clear beating into wind as the stays would be to each side of the roach or head of the sail and lastly if the sails he is loking for have round lightly battened roaches you can in fact use twin stays no problem...

Im always perplexed too why reading comprehension is so bad on here...we are all guilty of it

one thing we do agree on is the need to complicate a simple boat design

but since captain jack has no basis to start with(no sails... why criticise his need or want to improve, better or simply make his is sailplan on his boat to his liking?

I feel that it is much more important than sticking to whatever preconceived rules, looks etc a boat came with originally


adding an inner stay is anything but complicated...in fact its one of the easiest rigging jobs ever...

a backing plate or wire to a pad on the hull can be done by any diy out there and given he has the attachment points on the mast(which is the more intensive work need to be done, usually involving taking the mast down...ribveting, etc...) I see no reason to not do it

notice I also said you could add running backstays...again if he has the attachments points on the mast the hard work is done...

he could use 7x19 wire, high test line, spectra dyneema whatever he is a relatively small boat you dont have go crazy engineering a space shuttle here


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

The Commodore used battens and multiple reef points on many of his boats, from 28' to over-50-footers, built for cruising between New York, Florida, the Bahamas and the Caribbean.

"Another innovation in _Wabun_ was battened sails, which have been successfully copied in other boats since. Three flexible ash battens crossed each sail just below the reef points and extended a considerable projecting angle on the leach which gave the sails an odd batswing effect, and earned the name of "Chinese Junk" for _Wabun_ in many strange harbors. They greatly simplified reefing, the sail almost furled itself when lowered, and could be safely let go by the run at any time; and in coming about or at anchor with the sail set, there was none of the usual violent and destructive slatting of the sail and gear."

---Ralph Munroe, "The Commodore's Story"









*Egret*









* Modern Dutch Egret *









* Utilis *


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Sheesh, Jack..... I'm hoping this past few months' discussions have been mostly academic and to pass the time till the water gets soft and warmer....

Find some sails that fit and sail the boat like you stole it (which, in a way, you did ) for a season before you change anything significant. Wheel vs tiller? Sloop vs pseudo cutter? Full vs partial battens? Hardtop/ poptop?.. Faggetaboutallofit for now, try the boat, see what works, what doesn't and then see if all this " reinventing the existing wheel" has any merit.

End rant


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

My boat is 30 ft, but from the same time period and with the same small main, big masthead jib sail plan.

On your boat a full battened main is nice for controling the sail, adding lazy jacks will make it even easier. Adding roach will not make things much better, the boat will be mostly jib driven, and dealing with running backstays on a small boat with inexperienced crew will not be much fun. The sail is small enough that adding adding a batcars should not be needed, my main has full battens and I have never felt I needed them.

The sail will be heavier, but it is a small sail, and the main stays on the boom most of time anyway. I can lift and carry my sail alone, and can raise it about 5/6th of the way without a winch.

I have a single deep reef, for offshore sailing a second one would be good to have, but again your jib is the sail to deal with when it starts to blow. I have a heavy 130 as my main jib, built to be reefed. My boat sails very poorly up wind on main alone. I have no sailing time on a cutter, but if you stay with a sloop and plan heavy weather sailing a storm jib is great to have.

I would second the opinions that it is more important to choose sails in good shape that fit the boat well than worry too much about reefs and battens.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Faster said:


> Sheesh, Jack..... I'm hoping this past few months' discussions have been mostly academic and to pass the time till the water gets soft and warmer....
> 
> Find some sails that fit and sail the boat like you stole it (which, in a way, you did ) for a season before you change anything significant. Wheel vs tiller? Sloop vs pseudo cutter? Full vs partial battens? Hardtop/ poptop?.. Faggetaboutallofit for now, try the boat, see what works, what doesn't and then see if all this " reinventing the existing wheel" has any merit.
> 
> End rant


Did you never get a new car & sit around brainstorming & BSing with your buddies about the neat things you might do to it? You didn't *really* put a turbo,nitrous-injection, 8-barrel carb on it, but it was fun to think about, right? ---and maybe you guys actually came up with some useful nuggets in with all the moonshine.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> notice I explained or tried to WHAT KIND OF ROACH would be better
> 
> a roach that goes straight aft like americas cup foils(at a 90 degree angle) for example would in fact hit but but for reaching...beam reach all the way or close to broad you wouldnt a roach like a hobie would not inrerfere either


Well, if you're referring to the sort of square-top main seen on some of today's high performance boats, I think we can both agree that is not a viable option for a Cal 27... 



christian.hess said:


> you can also for example use a main that is a foot short, lower the book like you say a foot or 2 if you can...add a nice big roach sail...that WILL NOT INTERFERE with the stays and call it good
> 
> just sayin...


Based upon this line drawing for the Cal 2-27, I'm not seeing a whole lot of room for additional roach, here:

http://pages.sssnet.com/go2erie/images/line227b.gif

And, if you're talking about going with a full-battened main, the _LAST_ thing you want is any potential for any chafe whatsoever between a backstay, and the leech or batten pockets, in particular...



christian.hess said:


> but since captain jack has no basis to start with(no sails... why criticise his need or want to improve, better or simply make his is sailplan on his boat to his liking?
> 
> I feel that it is much more important than sticking to whatever preconceived rules, looks etc a boat came with originally


I'm not criticizing him... I'm simply questioning the likelihood that someone _who has yet to ever sail this boat_, is very likely to hit upon some magic bullet that will be a significant improvement upon the sailplan of the legendary Bill Lapworth, who designed the thing to begin with...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

JonEisberg said:


> ....
> 
> Based upon this line drawing for the Cal 2-27, I'm not seeing a whole lot of room for additional roach, here:


Not that it makes any essential difference to your point, Jon, Jack's Cal is the earlier version - closer to the old flattop Cal28 than the 2-27.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

The simple answer is, if you have light winds and want good sail shape go with full battens, the extra weight also helps the sail drop easier if you have lazy jacks and sail alone a lot. 

I have also read that the sail lasts longer but I think that could be a matter of opinion...

But, I agree with an earlier poster, take the best sail out of the fee ones being offered and make do for a year or two. There will be no shortage of other things to spend money on....


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Why would twin backstays permit a main with a greater roach to be carried? The angle of the backstay remains unchanged, no?


no, actually. it changes a lot. the single backstay, even thought it splits before it hits the transom, travels to the center of the transom. the chainplates are towards the eds of the transom. each of the twin backstays would travel straight to it's chainplate, instead of down the center. so, if viewed from above, the single back stay and the transom make two of the legs of a right triangle. each twin back stay would be like the hypotenuse of said right triangle. the hypotenuse is longer than either of the legs of a right triangle.

furthermore, if viewed from above, the boom/sail would be like the radius of a circle. as it swings from center to perpendicular to the hull, it maintains the same distance from center. while the single backstay would hit the roach, the twin backstays are farther from the mast than the single backstay. this effect is greatest at the chainplate and almost nothing at the mast, however, the deepest part of the roach is far enough from the mast that the twin back stays would be farther away from the roach than the single backstay.

geometry.



> If anything, twins would further complicate things, the roach now having to be passed inside of TWO shrouds with each tack, increasing chafe, and increasing the chance of hanging up on one of the backstays whenever the main was sheeted anywhere off of dead centerline...
> 
> Instead of trying to add roach, I think the OP should consider increasing the sail area of the main by lowering the excessive height of the boom...


very good advice with any boom. lower the boom and you lower the CE. and i already have. to mount my boomkicker i had to fix the sliding gooseneck to one spot. i chose the lowest possible spot.



> The pics from the brochure that Faster provided indicate a ridiculously high gooseneck/boom, to my eye - I can't see any reason for such height above the deck on that boat, at least as indicated in those pics...
> 
> Well, converting to a cutter will require a bit more than just "connections"... Is the foredeck attachment point tied into a bulkhead, or by a tie rod to the hull? And you'll need to configure running backstays, easier said than done on many boats...


i have to check about the deck attachment but i am assuming, since it is designed to be set up as a cutter or a sloop, it is attached to a structurally sound spot. however, if i were to decide on this option, i would be sure to double check that. don't want anything ripping out.

running backstays is the biggest problem, in my book. i will discuss all that with the rigger when i speak to him. if it proves to be more trouble than i think it's worth, i won't choose that option.



> I'm always perplexed why anyone feels the need for a cutter rig on a boat to be sailed on the Chesapeake, especially on a smaller, more nimble boat like yours... Unless you configure your inner stay to be easily removable, it will almost certainly result in your doing less sailing. With all the short tacking that sailing up into all the creeks, and into anchorages, that is a primary feature of Chesapeake cruising, dealing with tacking a cutter can be more of a PITA than it's worth...


you are right and that is a consideration. however, the why of it is simple: flexibility of sail plan. of course, if i set the jib up as self tending and leave the forestay sail as a real staysail, this helps reduce the complication of tacking with the extra head sail.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Just a thought... the tang on the mast and the fitting on deck are just as likely to be for a spinnaker pole lift and downhaul as for an inner stay.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> notice I explained or tried to WHAT KIND OF ROACH would be better
> 
> a roach that goes straight aft like americas cup foils(at a 90 degree angle) for example would in fact hit but but for reaching...beam reach all the way or close to broad you wouldnt a roach like a hobie would not inrerfere either
> 
> ...


that was my thought


> also you would be able to easily clear beating into wind as the stays would be to each side of the roach or head of the sail and lastly if the sails he is loking for have round lightly battened roaches you can in fact use twin stays no problem...
> 
> Im always perplexed too why reading comprehension is so bad on here...we are all guilty of it
> 
> ...


there is already a deck attachment point for this purpose.



> can be done by any diy out there and given he has the attachment points on the mast(which is the more intensive work need to be done, usually involving taking the mast down...ribveting, etc...) I see no reason to not do it
> 
> notice I also said you could add running backstays...again if he has the attachments points on the mast the hard work is done...
> 
> he could use 7x19 wire, high test line, spectra dyneema whatever he is a relatively small boat you dont have go crazy engineering a space shuttle here


i agree about tayloring a rig to your needs. i have seen a modern sloop, like mine, done with a junk rig. if it weren't for the extensive mast alterations, i'd go that route. one sail to control. easy reefing. unstayed mast. they supposedly sail very well. but, i'm not looking for that kind of heavy modification....this year. lol. i might do it, someday, though. talk about an easy boat to sail single handed.

[URL="

just for fun....and, maybe food for thought on some future day. here is my boat....with a junk rig. the mast would have to go forward. it also couldn't be deck stepped but would have to be keel stepped. it does look cleaner without all that standing rigging 

[URL="

ahhh the things a guy will do to bide the time while his girl is sleeping and he can't go sailing


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Sheesh, Jack..... I'm hoping this past few months' discussions have been mostly academic and to pass the time till the water gets soft and warmer....
> 
> Find some sails that fit and sail the boat like you stole it (which, in a way, you did ) for a season before you change anything significant. Wheel vs tiller? Sloop vs pseudo cutter? Full vs partial battens? Hardtop/ poptop?.. Faggetaboutallofit for now, try the boat, see what works, what doesn't and then see if all this " reinventing the existing wheel" has any merit.
> 
> End rant


some of it, like converting to a wheel, may end up being academic, but not all. i have not pondered anything without thoughts of applying it.

perhaps being held up by winter has lead to more pondering than if it had been nice and i could fix it up and then go sailing, but i do have a history of, to quote an ex, "not leave anything alone". motorcycles, cars, knives i carry, swords, everything i own. i make things mine, taylored to my personal needs and wants. mass production breeds compromise. i am not a compromising type of person.

i started my sailing career in a daggerboard dinghy, rigged with a lateen sail. that same boat, now has no daggerboard; instead, a long shallow keel. lateen sail? gone. in it's place a sprit sail i designed and built. i built a nice new rudder, for it, cut and shaped out of a hobbiecat rudder. i added oarlocks to it, which required building structures ( like on a melonseed )to mount them in because, i couldn't attach them directly to the hull. why? it sucked using a canoe paddle and the paddle took up space in the cockpit.

it was an old ( 1974 ) boat that cost me $75, 18 years ago. most people wouldn't put that much effort into an old $75 boat. but it was a great boat that i improved by making it fit my needs.

that's kind of what i do. i can't help it. it's in my nature.

but, if it wasn't my nature to do that, i'd thoroughly agee with you.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Just a thought... the tang on the mast and the fitting on deck are just as likely to be for a spinnaker pole lift and downhaul as for an inner stay.


you know, that is, of course, a possibility. Michael didn't seem to think so, though. i guess, before i ponder into it too far, i should double check his research.

i sent him an email ( since he hasn't been here in a while ) to ask if he has any source info on that. i figure that's the first lead to check out.

now it's time to voyage the sea of google.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

[URL="

real quick, i need to make a correction. i found a file i had on the cal 27, titled designed for performance. it was a jensen article on the cal27 and it talked about hull #1, which was raced. anyhow, it had a good drawing of the boat with the sailplan. i can't compy and paste because it is a pdf and i don't know how to post a pdf. what i discovered is that, while the sail plan is pretty much identical to the cal 39, there is one difference ( besides the extra headsail. the boom on the cal 27 is much higher. i hadn't figured on that when i posted the rig option pic, in a previous post. i corrected for that, in the above pic, and put the boom at the hight where i have it fixed ( lower than shown in the pic ). if you look at this pic, you will notice that lowering the boom gives a good bit of room between the sail and the backstay. it would also lower the CE a bit. however, it could accomodate a larger roach, like Christian was talking about with a catamaran sail...if i found a good full batten sail. definately a thought. here is what it would look like. i snatched the catamaran sail off of a bing image search. then i scaled it to size. while not an image of an exact sail i know will fit, it does give a good idea how it would work out....if i find the appropriate sail. and it would clear just fine if i switched from a split backstay to a twin backstay set up.



as far as head sails, especially in combination with a full batten sail as in the above pic, i was thinking about some of the advice given above. let's say i forget the idea of a cutter. and, if i do find a catamaran sail that will do the job, i opt for the twin backstays. one cost cancels the other.

now, given that it has been said that these rigs don't do well under main alone, unlike my holiday20, and that my jib will be the most important, in a blow....let's say i did run a 100% jib. then, in a blow, i could just reef the main, or, if it's bad enough, sail under jib alone. does that sound like a working simple sail plan and reefing plan?

as far as light airs, on summer days when i know it's going to be light, i could also get a jenny to hank on, instead of the working jib.

thoughts?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > Why would twin backstays permit a main with a greater roach to be carried? The angle of the backstay remains unchanged, no?
> 
> 
> ...


Uhhh, I don't think so...

Looking at the line drawing in the brochure posted earlier, the transom of you boat describes an arc with a radius _LESS THAN_ the distance from the mast to the transom at the centerline... In other words, the distance from the mast to the stern quarter is _SHORTER THAN_ that to a chainplate centered on the transom where a single backstay would be terminated... Thus the angle of twin shrouds coming off the masthead would actually be _LESS ACUTE_, and would even further reduce the potential amount of roach that could be carried...

However, since you say that your backstay is split, and the purchase is taken to chainplates at each corner of the transom, the angle between the mast and twin backstays taken to those same attachment points would remain _IDENTICAL_ to your current configuration...

_geometry._


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Uhhh, I don't think so...
> 
> Looking at the line drawing in the brochure posted earlier, the transom of you boat describes an arc with a radius _LESS THAN_ the distance from the mast to the transom at the centerline... In other words, the distance from the mast to the stern quarter is _SHORTER THAN_ that to a chainplate centered on the transom where a single backstay would be terminated... Thus the angle of twin shrouds coming off the masthead would actually be _LESS ACUTE_, and would even further reduce the potential amount of roach that could be carried...
> 
> ...


i hate to be argumentative, but i have actually been on my boat and seen it with my own eyes. the transom is straight. it doesn't arc. i will post the first pic of it i ever had, back before i bought it. that one shows the transom perfectly.

[URL=http://s1251.photobucket.com/user/devilknight69/media/cal27atdock2.jpg.html]

here is a picture of a different cal27. it's just like mine except that mine was equipped with an inboard and this one had the outboard. the only visible difference is that the outboatd models had a part of the transom cut away to fit a motor.

this is a much clearer picture, of what i am trying to show you. not only does the transom not arc towards the front of the boat but, you can see it arcs very slightly downwards; away from the top of the mast.

this is a great pic because it also shows the chainplates, which are already there for twin stays to mount to.

now, using this pictorial evidence of the shape of the transom, if you create an arc/cone with the chainplates, as you did with the single backstay, the arc/mouth of the cone would have to be larger in diameter than the one created with the single backstay. that means the twin stays would not be at as steep of an angle as the single backstay. which also means the twin backstays would be farther from the mast, at any given point ( past the mounting point on the mast which is the center of both arcs ), than the single backstay. which also means that the twin backstays would be farther from the roach of any triangular sail than the single backstay. of course, that is not talking about the type of battened sails used by the Americas cup boats but, i have no intention of thought of using one of those ( nlor the access, i would think ).

it will be easy enough to put the geometry discussion to bed. when i go to the boat, this week, i will simply tie a line to the halyard, raise it, then use that line to visibly demonstrate what i am saying. it would be fairly easy to set it up. all i have to do is mark it at the chainplate, then fix it to a board, mounted to the transom in line with the center where the single backstay would mount. then i could just snap a picture. that would be helpful to me, anyhow, because it would really let me know how much extra room i would actually get from using twin backstays.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

There are plenty of boats out there that have a few inches of roach/backstay interference, including our own. Initially with a wire backstay, with enough breeze the sail pulled itself through and past the backstay no problem, but in light air it would hang up in the backstay and need some help. Gybing in light air was the worst, the sail seemed to catch most often on a batten pocket and we worried eventually that would tear at some point.

With a fractional rig and swept spreaders we were able to switch to Dyneema and a whip, and that's worked out well for us. You'll see plenty of roachy race/sport boats with similar setups.

In your case, I think whether with your present setup or with split stays, the difference in interference will be so small as to be negligible.. if you gain any measurable clearance it won't be much and I expect you'll still have some interference. Not the end of the world but consider this... with a twin backstay the leech will have to 'rub' across TWO stays instead of only one.. that's twice the chafe, twice the risk for catching/tearing, on every tack or gybe.

Finally your current split backstay offers you the ability to adjust overall backstay tension by pulling down on the bridle between the splits (visible in one of your pics).. with twins you lose that ability. Also, anytime you have two full length stays for one job it's virtually impossible to load/tension either of them just right.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

and those would be the cons of twin stays unfortunately but as with all things there is always a tradeoff...or pro con situation


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

baboon said:


> My boat is 30 ft, but from the same time period and with the same small main, big masthead jib sail plan.
> 
> On your boat a full battened main is nice for controling the sail, adding lazy jacks will make it even easier. Adding roach will not make things much better, the boat will be mostly jib driven


i want to address this point, for a minute.

first, my main thought is not additional roach. it's a full batten sail. the roach comes in because i am pretty sure the most readily available full batten sails will be for catamarans. i could be wrong about that, though. i won't know til i go searching and Bacon sails is still in their winter hours. plus, i haven't seen the sails the marina has.

however, there are some benefits to the deeper roach, the same benefits that shaped the Americas cup sails.

first, the roach can't really add enough area to the rear of the sail to make this boat a main driven vessel. that's not even a thought in my mind.

however, the thing they do add to the boat is improved lift creation efficiency. high aspect bermuda sails create lift better than low aspect sails. longer luff. more lift. however, because they form such an narrow right triangle, a large section of the top of the sail really has it's efficiency destroyed by turbulence coming from the mast. i have read that, depending on the mast, this can affect from a foot to 2 feet of the leading edge of the sail. in a normal high aspect bermuda sail, that takes out a good bit of the top of the sail.

the deeper roach on a catamaran sail makes the top of the sail less narrow; making it more efficient for more of it's length. of course, sails with a very high roach ( or sails with a very wide head board) take this to it's most beneficial end. because of my backstay(s) i wouldn't be able to do this. however, the deeper roaxch would be a benefit in this area.

lowering the boom, along with going to twin backstays, will help make such a sail fit my boat. however, i a deeper roach does add square footage. square footage which isn't usually counted but exists. my drawings were based on a full batten sail with the same luff and foot dimensions as the stock sail. i could actually get a sail with a shorter luff and still have as much actual square footage as the stock sail. and, although there would be less luff than the stock sail, more of the luff would function efficiently. thereby, effectively performing as if it had a longer luff.

it would help off the wind, too. the narrow high aspect sail would be far less efficient, off the wind, than the battened sail with a deep roach.

my only concern might be the increase of weather helm. since, as baboon points out, my boat is jib driven, this may not be an issue at all. i can always figure out the CE of any sail i consider buying ( i could treat the deep roached sail as a four sided sail to figure the CE including the roach ) but, that is, as we all know, really just a theoretical point. you never know how it will really behave until you sail it. of course, the stays could be adjusted to rake the mast forwards, a bit, and help to negate any weather helm i might get. once it is properly tensioned, i can make that adjustment, myself, and just make sure the final stay tension is as the rigger set it up. i do have a tension gauge.

anyhow, that's my thoughts in the matter. i wanted to get some feedback to consider. it makes me think and consider different aspects of an issue i might not have considered, otherwise.

i do agree, finding a good sail at a good price, that fits, trumps looking for a fully battened sail. however, catamarans are fairly common and it isn't at all unlikely that i could find a fully battened sail that will fit. so, that makes consideratoon of that option a valid consideration....in my mind, at least.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> There are plenty of boats out there that have a few inches of roach/backstay interference, including our own. Initially with a wire backstay, with enough breeze the sail pulled itself through and past the backstay no problem, but in light air it would hang up in the backstay and need some help. Gybing in light air was the worst, the sail seemed to catch most often on a batten pocket and we worried eventually that would tear at some point.
> 
> With a fractional rig and swept spreaders we were able to switch to Dyneema and a whip, and that's worked out well for us. You'll see plenty of roachy race/sport boats with similar setups.
> 
> ...


excellent points! that's why i start these threads


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> and those would be the cons of twin stays unfortunately but as with all things there is always a tradeoff...or pro con situation


very true. i suppose, the best course is to talk to the rigger about twin stays and then see if i can discover a boat that has a stock sail that will fit. taking an actual measurement of the foot and luff dimensions of the rig is a good place to start. i don't know how much my lowering the boom ( pun not intended ) will alter the luff dimension from stock. i think mocking up the twin stay dimension would help too. perhaps, i could set it up with a boomkin to run the backstay to. :laugher


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

just kidding about that.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

why....?

anything goes in my book, its your boat...try whatever you like...adding a boomkin altough unsightly a bit on your boat design would add better stay strength especially for downwind sailing...you will gain a bit of space for a nicer roach aloft for the first 2 feet of main sail like you have accurately described etc

your points are very valid...

bermuda mains are practically useless the first few feet, thats why there are many proponents of junk rigs...nonsuch style boats and now in modern times big roached foils like on americas cup boats

I beleive the main reason boats are mostly bermuda style and sloops for that matter is simply standardization of most production boats not necessarily SUPREMELY better rig


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> i added this pic because, although it doesn't show the transom, it does show the split stays. it would be easy to see that twin side stays would have to be farther from the top of the mast, than a single backstay, by looking at the triangle formed by the backstay lower ( on either side ), the backstay adjuster ( which mounts to the center of the transom ), and the transom. yes, i know the stay is tensioned, causing each lower to bend in, but imagine a line from each corner going to a point high above and then extend the line of the adjuster towards that same point.
> 
> i really need to get arond to taking new pics. she looked pretty rough when i first got her. next time i go to the boat.
> 
> ...


There's a good reason yacht designers draw sailplans _in profile_, it's the clearest picture of how the sails will fit the rig... In profile, there will be no difference in the angle of the shroud(s) as they come off the masthead and lead to the same chainplates, whether you're talking about a split backstay, or twins...

True, by leading a shroud directly to transom chainplate outboard of the centerline, you are increasing that angle at the masthead ever so slightly... Let's see, to my eye your pics appear to show those chainplates approximately 2 feet off the centerline, OK? So, applying a rough guestimate of the dimensions of your boat and its sailplan, by going with twin backtsays led directly to those chainplates, you will be increasing the distance - _at deck level_ - between the mast and your current setup _by a distance of roughly *1.5 INCHES*_... Measuring the same differential at the height of the boom, you might be lucky to have lengthened your E dimension by a single inch...

But, hey - if you really think such a modest 'relocation', in effect, of your chainplate - and the resultant miniscule increase in the angle of the backstay coming off the masthead - is gonna produce sufficient additional clearance to make the switch to a main with a big roach, well... Go For It... 

As Faster already pointed out, in going with twins you're giving up the ability to easily adjust backstay tension (unless you elected to go with some very pricey gear on each shroud, to adjust each independently) Again, with a boat as small and nimble as yours, I think that would probably rank as one of the dumbest modifications one could possibly make to the existing rig...

But, that's probably just me... and Faster...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I think...saying such a thing is even more dumb. thats just me though

It boggles my mind how people are so damn critical of others' boats and stuff for that matter

btw people mod stays like this all the time

people go from twin stays to single rear with an adjuster or people go from single to twin in order to say mount some davits or have and open access to the stern for certain windvane configurations, mounts...radar whatever

as long as you make it strong and dont weaken other aspects of the rig in doing so its fine.

my little rant over




captains boat does in fact have a great common slightly racing split backstay setup....its great for releasing on downwind courses and then racking it in on nice beats up...

its a great simple setup

my folkboat had the same setup well different as it has a pulley system on one side and a fixed stay on the other actually pulling the stay off to one side a bit

but here is this scenario like captain has mentioned before

he has no stock sails...so basically he can do what he pleases with his current standing rig to suit what he deems necessary sail wise

Im all for exploration...using a nicely roached sail off another boat isnt heretic or dumb., as is modifying his standing rig to suit his needs

I mean imagine he doesnt like adjusting his backstay all the time...think about it?

why would anyone call switching to fixed twin stays DUMB?

why?

its stronger, redundant...fixed...if one fails youcan easily rig the remaining one in a standard centered position or simply run a toping lift or halyard down to the broken sides plate

is that dumb?

I mean it boggles my mind...I just dont get it


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> Im all for exploration...using a nicely roached sail off another boat isnt heretic or dumb., as is modifying his standing rig to suit his needs
> 
> I mean imagine he doesnt like adjusting his backstay all the time...think about it?
> 
> ...


Except, he has never stated he would be doing this for purposes of redundancy, or because he "doesn't like adjusting the backstay"... The only stated purpose of such a modification thus far has been to enhance performance by being able to accommodate a full-battened main with a larger roach... Sorry, but to give sacrifice one of the primary means of tuning the rig on such a boat to adapt to changing conditions, in order to carry such a miniscule additional amount of roach, seems to me, well... _DUMB_... 

He's gonna be buying used sails for this boat, no? Chances are they might be blown out, to a certain degree... So, there's a very good probability - especially given some of the funky things he's considering doing forward of the mast  - he's gonna need all the help he can get from time to time, doing things like reducing headstay sag by cranking down on his backstay... Which, in its present configuration, is ideally suited for that purpose... You really think it makes sense to throw that capability away, just to gain some degree of additional potential roach likely measured in fractions of an inch ???

Again, perhaps it's just me... But I'd guess Bill Lapworth probably wouldn't think that tradeoff would be such a brilliant idea, either... 

However, if he suddenly does decide that he values the redundancy of a second backstay above all else, or that he never, ever wants to be bothered with adjusting his backstay tension, well... _THEN_ the notion of switching to twin backstays will become somewhat less 'dumb', for his purpose...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> why....?
> 
> anything goes in my book, its your boat...try whatever you like...adding a boomkin altough unsightly a bit on your boat design would add better stay strength especially for downwind sailing...you will gain a bit of space for a nicer roach aloft for the first 2 feet of main sail like you have accurately described etc


true


> your points are very valid...
> 
> bermuda mains are practically useless the first few feet, thats why there are many proponents of junk rigs...nonsuch style boats and now in modern times big roached foils like on americas cup boats
> 
> I beleive the main reason boats are mostly bermuda style and sloops for that matter is simply standardization of most production boats not necessarily SUPREMELY better rig


that and racing rules which don't necessarily favor the development of the best set up but the best set up within the set rules


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Except, he has never stated he would be doing this for purposes of redundancy, or because he "doesn't like adjusting the backstay"... The only stated purpose of such a modification thus far has been to enhance performance by being able to accommodate a full-battened main with a larger roach... Sorry, but to give sacrifice one of the primary means of tuning the rig on such a boat to adapt to changing conditions, in order to carry such a miniscule additional amount of roach, seems to me, well... _DUMB_...
> 
> He's gonna be buying used sails for this boat, no? Chances are they might be blown out, to a certain degree... So, there's a very good probability - especially given some of the funky things he's considering doing forward of the mast  - he's gonna need all the help he can get from time to time, doing things like reducing headstay sag by cranking down on his backstay... Which, in its present configuration, is ideally suited for that purpose... You really think it makes sense to throw that capability away, just to gain some degree of additional potential roach likely measured in fractions of an inch ???
> 
> ...


it's not his boat. is it? he designed it to race. i don't care about racing.

never had or used an adjustable backstay before. how do i know if i like it or not? it's another thing to fiddle with while you are sailing. also, just because you don't do a certain thing for certain benefits that you get from doing it doesn't mean those benefits don't matter, does it?

also, sometimes an inch can make a big difference. add that inch to the gains from lowering the boom and it might make all the difference in the world.

but it's is a bit needless for everyone to get worked up over it, at this point.... until i see what sails i have access to, none of it is a set in stone plan.

everyone needs to relax a bit. not get so uptight and offended. it's a friendly discussion of the possibilities, pros, and cons.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

the more i think about it, the less likely i am to try the cutter rig out until i have sailed it a bit as a sloop. i won't deny it has a lot going for it but it is added complexity. i am probably going to start out with a 100% jib and a jenny ( for lighter winds ) and use roller furling/reefing.

i am definately going to see what is available, as far as full batten sails. i am going to see if i can find a full batten main that will do the trick and then see if i can find one to buy. if not, i will, of course, get the best 'regular' sail that i can.

it seems that the majority suggest only one or two reef points. does everyone seem to agree on that? it is something i will need to consider when looking for a sail and setting up the running rigging.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

put me in the single reef category for your boat.

good luck


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

christian.hess said:


> put me in the single reef category for your boat.
> 
> good luck


Me too... until such time as you make plans to cruise for longer distances/time at least... Your boat probably sails pretty well on a headsail alone if it gets to that.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Reef points -- it depends: how much seriously-heavy weather do you anticipate sailing in? How does she handle under reduced main? -- reduced jib? -- sans jib? -- sans main? Sail her a bit, practice in moderate weather, learn her likes & dislikes, then if needed you can make changes. You can always shake a reef out if the weather lightens; repairing/replacing a blown-out sail is a bit more work.

Remember the old adage, "If you're wondering whether to reef or not, you should reef." 

Put me down for 2 sets of reef points -- paranoia is cheap, and I don't trust the weather forecasters. 

Any thoughts on when you'll be taking her out?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Me too... until such time as you make plans to cruise for longer distances/time at least... Your boat probably sails pretty well on a headsail alone if it gets to that.


can you qualify that? what do you mean by longer distances/time?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Reef points -- it depends: how much seriously-heavy weather do you anticipate sailing in? How does she handle under reduced main? -- reduced jib? -- sans jib? -- sans main? Sail her a bit, practice in moderate weather, learn her likes & dislikes, then if needed you can make changes. You can always shake a reef out if the weather lightens; repairing/replacing a blown-out sail is a bit more work.
> 
> Remember the old adage, "If you're wondering whether to reef or not, you should reef."
> 
> ...


when it comes to preparing for disaster, better safe than sorry is a good rule of thumb.

well, this is projecting a bit....a lot of things factor into it, like the weather and money availability. or how many emergecies pop up this year. also, what issues i find when i haul her.

however, trying to be realistic, i am thinking somewhere between the middle and end of spring. if i can get everything done earlier, that's great. but, everything takes longer than you think it will. sometimes, things that you think will be a real bear turn out to be fairly easy. othertimes, moronically easy things go terribly wrong.

but that's my planned schedule. now that i had a big job finish, and i got a good size payday, i am starting the electrical stuff in ernest....well, just as soon as it bloody well stops snowing.

i am ordering wire and interior lights this week. as well as the other electrical parts needed to wire a boat.

once it warms up enough to paint and glass, i will move onto that.

i am a bit nervous about the haul. i am going to have to talk t that marina. for 265 i get hauled and launched and a week on the hard to work. i really don't know if i can get the stuff i need done, while on dry land, done in a week's time. i can only work so fast and i may have to work to earn money during that week. for the last year, my work schedule has been able to be flexible to my needs. no guarantee that will continue. i am going to talk to them to see if i can buy extra time.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> better safe than sorry is a good rule of thumb, in life.
> 
> well, this is projecting a bit....a lot of things factor into it, like the weather and money availability. or how many emergecies pop up this year. also, what issues i find when i haul her.
> 
> ...


Got anyone you can Tom Sawyer into helping? 

LED lighting?

Do what you can, then go sailing. You need to reward yourself for all the hard work once in a while, or risk burning out. So what if she's not ready for a beauty contest yet? As long as she floats right-side-up and moves under her own power, you're golden.

The rest is just details --- "Our life is frittered away by detail. An honest man has hardly need to count more than his ten fingers, or in extreme cases he may add his ten toes, and lump the rest. Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand; instead of a million count half a dozen, and keep your accounts on your thumb-nail. In the midst of this chopping sea of civilized life, such are the clouds and storms and quicksands and thousand-and-one items to be allowed for, that a man has to live, if he would not founder and go to the bottom and not make his port at all, by dead reckoning, and he must be a great calculator indeed who succeeds. Simplify, simplify. "
----Henry David Thoreau

Here's hoping for an easy time on the hard. Good luck!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

captain jack said:


> can you qualify that? what do you mean by longer distances/time?


What I was getting at is that if you're daysailing, check the weather, put a reef in(or not), choose a headsail and out you go... if the wind pipes up beyond what you're prepared for you can head back in.

But if you go 'cruising' for days or a week or more, or plan a lengthy crossing, you'll need to be equipped to handle whatever may come in case you don't have a convenient 'bail out point'. An extra reef can make a difference to your comfort and safety at that point.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Got anyone you can Tom Sawyer into helping?


life never works that way for me. there is my girlfriend, although that she only going to be able to be so much help. lot's of heart but not a lot of skills in this area.



> LED lighting?


yep. it's the only way to go. less energy drain. less head. longer lasting. the guy is going to give me a 20% discount and, so, i am buying 3 msatching units. one for in the head area, right behing the V berth. and two for in the main cabin.



> Do what you can, then go sailing. You need to reward yourself for all the hard work once in a while, or risk burning out. So what if she's not ready for a beauty contest yet? As long as she floats right-side-up and moves under her own power, you're golden.
> 
> The rest is just details --- "Our life is frittered away by detail. An honest man has hardly need to count more than his ten fingers, or in extreme cases he may add his ten toes, and lump the rest. Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand; instead of a million count half a dozen, and keep your accounts on your thumb-nail. In the midst of this chopping sea of civilized life, such are the clouds and storms and quicksands and thousand-and-one items to be allowed for, that a man has to live, if he would not founder and go to the bottom and not make his port at all, by dead reckoning, and he must be a great calculator indeed who succeeds. Simplify, simplify. "
> ----Henry David Thoreau
> ...


great quote! thanks. at the very least, i need to scrape barnacles, redo the bottom paint, and inspect everything below the water line. i'd like to also do a few other things that i could do, with greater difficulty, while on the water, and, if my inspection doesn't turn up any serious issues that need dealt with, i might be able to. but, if i ask to buy more time they may be willing to do that.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> What I was getting at is that if you're daysailing, check the weather, put a reef in(or not), choose a headsail and out you go... if the wind pipes up beyond what you're prepared for you can head back in.
> 
> But if you go 'cruising' for days or a week or more, or plan a lengthy crossing, you'll need to be equipped to handle whatever may come in case you don't have a convenient 'bail out point'. An extra reef can make a difference to your comfort and safety at that point.


ok. i got you. that's a good point.

my goal is not only to daysail.

sure, i will ( hopefully ) be doing a lot of daysailing. work and stuff means i won't be able to just shove off for a summer or something. since this boat is on the water, i am counting on the fact that it will be easier, than it is with a boat you have to trailer, to go sailing.( specifically, with my girlfriend, on the weekends or on week days when i have a free day.) that should increase my time to sail.

the dinghy is easy enough to put on the water but she can only handle one person so i have to work my sailing time around my girlfriend's work schedule. i am just lucky that she has been working on the weekends, during the day, and i haven't had to feel guilty leaving her behind, to sail. weekends are the only time she really gets to see me much and it's also usually the time the work schedule allows me to sail.

but, my goal is to cruise the bay. so much to explore! it will be mostly weekend cruises but i plan on working longer cruises in whenever i can get the time. and, someday when life permits, i hope to sail out of the bay and do some coastal sailing.

so, keeping all that in mind, i think i should aim for the extra reef point.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, right? Think of it as cheap cruise insurance -- you can safely stay out longer with it than without it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, right? Think of it as cheap cruise insurance -- you can safely stay out longer with it than without it.


that's my way of thinking. besides, i was originally planning 3 reefs. 2 reefs saves me money for one reef line while not putting me in a position to where i am trusting the weatherman when he says i am in for smooth sailing.

i have been caught out, in my dinghy on lake marburg, in violent squalls that suddenly appeared, with only a minute or two warning, on sunny days where the weather and wind was predicted to be mild. since the bay is known for such squalls, i think it best to be over prepared.

in the dinghy, it's one thing. my life is the only one at risk. but on this boat, my girlfriend's life will be in my hands, as well. i don't mind dying but i really don't want to be in a situation where lack of foresight on my part could put her at risk.

i think this point says it all:



Faster said:


> you'll need to be equipped to handle whatever may come in case you don't have a convenient 'bail out point'. An extra reef can make a difference to your comfort and safety at that point.


of course, i don't think that's the way he meant it since he recommened only one reef point.  i think he is not alone in assuming i will just be daysailing. but, even if 90% of the time i only day sail, i really should be prepared for the other 10% of the time when i will be cruising. plus, the bay can be unpredictable and it's very possible to sail far enough to be out of easy reach of a "bail out point", while daysailing.

i like to explore, so, even in the dinghy, i'm not one to stick close enough to shore for a quick dash to safety....unless i expect things to get bad. with the bay being so large and inviting to someone wanting to explore, and this boat being quite a bit faster than the dinghy, i don't expect i will be changing my tendencies any. in fact, knowing my own tendencies was one thing that lead me to thinking about getting a ballasted fixed keel boat, in the first place. the other was the ability to live aboard, for a weekend or however long i choose.

i have never had the holiday on the bay. only the lake. it's a big lake and it can take a while to sail the dinghy to the far end and back. but the holiday is a fast boat. it has a bigger jib that standard and it can really foot out. so, the lake wasn't so large that the holiday couldn't get me back to safety in a half hour or less.

the bay doesn't provide those kinds of boundaries and i am not likely to provide them for myself. i know that, if i sail the holiday on the bay, i'm going to want to explore....and so i would. knowing that, i thought a ballasted keelboat would be a safer bet, on the bay ( seeing as how it wouldn't just be me in the boat ).

like i said, i am fine to sail my dinghy beyond the point of reasonable return to port in a blow, since i am the only one at risk. but, i'm not willing to risk others.

of course, any port in a storm, as they say. regardless of the boat, if you are in range of a quick dash towards shore, you could tie onto any dock you find....but the bay is big enough that you aren't always going to have that luxury. especially since i tend to have this draw to sail into bigger water, rather than hug the shore.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

just to add a bit more all 3 reef sails I have had have worse performance and have more stuff that can get damaged...

I dont like reef lines dangling or al those eyes but thats me

way back in the thread I meantioned my ideal all round setup that included cruising and daysailing

lastly a 3 reef sail on a cal 27 would pretty much take up all sail area or the reefs would be so close to each other that you would barely notice it say reef 1 to 2...from 1 to 3 yes but then youd ask yourself why have number 2?



so 2 reef points good, if there is a big spread between them...

again for your boat since we have had similiar sized boats 1 reef a nice deep one and call it a day

if you plan to cruise or sail offshore a lot then you can modify, reinforce, add a deep reef point etc...or get a heavy offshore main

like mentioned before as well...get the best condition main you can find...thats better to me than what reef points, etc it has.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

> I think this point says it all:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, well that was with primarily daysailing in mind.. beyond that I meant what's quoted above as supporting two reefs.... Anyhow, find the sail first.. reefs can always be added, keep the costs down by forgoing the reef tie grommets along the new 'foot'.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Yes, well that was with primarily daysailing in mind.. beyond that I meant what's quoted above as supporting two reefs..


i meant no offense when i said that, sir. i could tell, from what you said, that you were thinking i would be primarily daysailing. if we had been sitting in the same room, talking, you'd have been clearer about the humorous good natured intent in my statement. that's the trouble with on line and text conversation.

you are right, your quote does support two reef points for actual cruising. that's why i quoted it. it was a very good piece of advice.

i did find a cal 27 main, on ebay, for $200. it's used. i have to check the measurements. i am a littled leary of buying a sail from ebay, when i can't see it in person before putting my money down, though.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

ok. tentatively, since i need to take actual measurements from my boat, a hobie cat 18 mainsail will work nicely on my boat. the luff of the hobie sail is 2.5' shorter and the foot is around 1.3 feet shorter. i have done some drawings, using sail images of the hobie sail which are available on line, and it should fit the space nicely. coupled with the roach, the shorter foot will help to keep the CE in pretty much the same place as on the stock cal 27 main. that should be an easily available sail.

i am going to do some more research and post it, here, as i find it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

check this out. i may have found a good used hobie 18 mainsail, battens included, for $145. 6 oz dacron. at that price, it's definately worth trying.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

"Seemed to be fully powered up with a genoa in light air, so maybe that's a good sail area amount. Some weather helm, but not excessive, so maybe the CE is good. The boat was no fun in a breeze off the wind so reef early."

this is some feedback on the sailing qualities of this boat, from a discussion on another site. what do you think? how does that input possibly affect your recommendations on sail decisions, if at all?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

ok. i am getting somewhere. according to SQFT, the hobie 16 and 18 mainsails are too big.

my mainsail area is listed as 142 sqft.
hobie 18 mainsail area: 167.9 sqft
hobie 16 mainsail area: 148 sqft

i don't want to add to the size of the main. if nothing else, because it could adversely affect the balance.

time to look into the hobie 14 and see what their specs are. of course, for $145, i could get that hobie 16 sail and rempve a panel or two from the bottom to get the right sail area.

hobie 14 is too small by a bit. 112.5 sqft.
the hobie 15 is 123 sqft. but i can't seem to find luff and foot measurements.

so, that leaves a decision between the hobie 15 sail of the hobie 16 sail. one is 6 sqft bigger than i need and one is 19 sqft smaller. 

of course, it makes me wonder about the hobie 18 sail i could get, cheap, and cut down.

thinking about it, i take that back. the hobie 15 sail would be probably better. the deep roach would move the CE back from that on the narrow cal sail but the smaller main would help to neutralize the effect because it would represent a smaller percentage of the sail area. it would really help if i could get sail measurements for the hobie 15 sail. i can find drawings of it and could figure out the CE but without measurements it would be impossible to make an actual comparison.

hmmm doesn't matter. apparently the 15 is a european boat so sail access wouldn't be easy, anyway. so it would come down to modifyling the 16 or 18 sail.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jack.. what's the idea behind fixating on a Hobie sail? For the colours? For the full battens? for the (problematic) roach? the price?

Seems to me that a Cal 27 is not such an odd duck that you couldn't find any number of compatible sails (of all contructions/batten arrangements) amongst the long list of 26-28 footers historically built and rigged. Take your confirmed dimensions to Bacons or another online used sail loft and search for a fit. Full battened cruising sails for such boats are not that rare.


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Here are a few 4 battened sails. You can see sizes for All CAL sailboats here & possibly fit.
Bacon Sails & Marine Supplies
...CAL listing for all., Bacon Sails & Marine Supplies - Call em up they will answer questions & might know the answers.
410-263-4880


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

question for those of you who know full batten/catamaran sails:

a junk sail is full batten. they depend on lazy jacks. to reef, you simply lower the halyard and the sail settles down beteen the LJ.

are the ctamaran sails i am considering heavy enough to do that? or, do they need actual reef lines? i assume they would still need reef points because they don't have sheets attached to the battens. but not having to have reef lines to reef would save money and make reefing easier. well, maybe not save money. i woud still have the expense of rigging lazy jacks, i suppose.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Jack.. what's the idea behind fixating on a Hobie sail? For the colours? For the full battens? for the (problematic) roach? the price?
> 
> Seems to me that a Cal 27 is not such an odd duck that you couldn't find any number of compatible sails (of all contructions/batten arrangements) amongst the long list of 26-28 footers historically built and rigged. Take your confirmed dimensions to Bacons or another online used sail loft and search for a fit. Full battened cruising sails for such boats are not that rare.


i honestly didn't realize full battens would be that common. i know that catamarans are very common so their sails would be readily available.

see? that's why i keep posting my thoughts. there is a lot more experience on this site than in my head. lol. it's educational. that opens up my research to a wider range of possibilities.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> Here are a few 4 battened sails. You can see sizes for All CAL sailboats here & possibly fit.
> Bacon Sails & Marine Supplies
> ...CAL listing for all., Bacon Sails & Marine Supplies - Call em up they will answer questions & might know the answers.
> 410-263-4880


cool. thanks. that's a really good idea. i will do that.


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

With the wind forces I seriously doubt you could lower sail to reef without 'reef points'.
--Here is a Hobie discussion about reefing and Hobie sailors prob know much more, unless a Hobie Sailor is on sailnet. Many/some Sailors have started on Hobie Cats..
http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45144


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Friends arriving at Fanning Island , including one of my 40 footers ,had new sails with full length battens. When I asked them what they tough of full length battens,both said "Battens suck."
Later ,after the 40 footer had sailed to New Zealand and back to BC ,I asked again ,and the reply was "Battens still suck!"


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> With the wind forces I seriously doubt you could lower sail to reef without 'reef points'.
> --Here is a Hobie discussion about reefing and Hobie sailors prob know much more, unless a Hobie Sailor is on sailnet. Many/some Sailors have started on Hobie Cats..
> Hobie Cat Forums ? View topic - Reefing at sea


yeah. i had to run right after i posted it and then, in the car, i happened to realize how silly that question was. of course it needs reef lines and points. a junk sail doesn't need reef lines because it has no boom, really. each batten has a parrel that holds it to the mast. and each of the battens at the 'reef points' has a sheet attached to it. so, it automatically has a new tack and clew once it is lowered into the lazy jacks.

a full batten bermuda still has a boom, where the sheet is attached, and each batten is not strongly attached to the mast...at least not strong enough to be a new tack. so, it needs a new tack and clew when reefed.

which brings about the point that i don't recall ever seeing reef points on a catamaran sail. so, that might actually not work for me. however, maybe i will get an answer to tht question from your link.

thanks. 

nope. no direct answer. but it gives me a place to post the question! one thing for sure, that discussion tells me that hobie 16 sails will not likely have reef points. that would mean paying extra to have the sail modified for that. still, at $145, that may not be terrible.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Brent Swain said:


> Friends arriving at Fanning Island , including one of my 40 footers ,had new sails with full length battens. When I asked them what they tough of full length battens,both said "Battens suck."
> Later ,after the 40 footer had sailed to New Zealand and back to BC ,I asked again ,and the reply was "Battens still suck!"


did they say why? battens are supposed to help sail shape and aid in reefing. someone just saying battens suck doesn't tell me much.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/125402-full-battens-monohull-cruiser-8.html#post1596329

here is an article about full batten sails. getting ready to read it, now.

http://www.sailmaker.com/articles/fullbatt.htm

another article


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> Friends arriving at Fanning Island , including one of my 40 footers ,had new sails with full length battens. When I asked them what they tough of full length battens,both said "Battens suck."
> Later ,after the 40 footer had sailed to New Zealand and back to BC ,I asked again ,and the reply was "Battens still suck!"


I'm guessing your friends are in the minority of people who have actually made the switch to full battens... Most people and clients I know are quite satisfied overall, and would not make the switch back to anything else... The only likely exception might be those who sail boats with deeply swept spreaders...

I know I sure wouldn't go back to a more 'conventional' or 'traditional' arrangement... Full battened, loose-footed is the only way to go, for me...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

> "*An advantage of battenless sails that is not often discussed, probably because relatively few people care about it, is that you can raise the sail with the wind coming from any direction, there is nothing to get caught on shrouds, spreaders or lazyjacks.
> 
> This is, of course, most important to those who sail without engines, or those who plan to sail without engines.
> 
> ...


this is another person's opinion about the issue of battens. interestingly, this guy, like me, is a non-engine oriented sailor. so, that makes me think about the batten issue twice.

i read another article, which i didn't bother linking, that points out similar drawbacks as the articles i have posted. there are pluses and minuses to everything, however, this guy points out an issue that applies directly to me.

i suppose full battens on a bermuda may not work as well as full battens on a junk rig. theb again, a junk rig is a different animal, altogether. i was hoping to gain some of the benefits of the junk rig from my bermuda.

thoughts?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> I'm guessing your friends are in the minority of people who have actually made the switch to full battens... Most people and clients I know are quite satisfied overall, and would not make the switch back to anything else... The only likely exception might be those who sail boats with deeply swept spreaders...
> 
> I know I sure wouldn't go back to a more 'conventional' or 'traditional' arrangement... Full battened, loose-footed is the only way to go, for me...


cool!

if you have the time, would you mind sharing the specifics of your opinion? i would love the input from someone with experience with these kinds of sails.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

captain jack said:


> "Seemed to be fully powered up with a genoa in light air, so maybe that's a good sail area amount. Some weather helm, but not excessive, so maybe the CE is good. The boat was no fun in a breeze off the wind so reef early."


this guy expounded on his input. the weatherhelm was associated with not reefing soon enough. one thing he said supports going full batten. he said the stock main has problems getting to top part of the sail to pull. he said you had to over trim the main to get it to pull but then the lower part of the sail would create more leeway than lift.

that would be helped by a shorter, roachier, full batten sail. it would have to be chosen carefully so that it wouldn't create weatherhelm issues. but i already know that. so, now that i have some feedback, i am even more undecided. lol. hopefully, JonEisberg will add to my feedback and help me make a decision. people seem to be very positive or very negatove about full battens.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> cool!
> 
> if you have the time, would you mind sharing the specifics of your opinion? i would love the input from someone with experience with these kinds of sails.


Carol Hasse is far more knowledgeable, and can explain the pros and cons far better than I... (Sorry about the format, copied from a pdf):



> A cruiser who has decided to live with the negatives of battens in exchange for
> the positives of roach may choose between full length battens or shorter
> "standard" battens. The standard batten mainsail is usually less prone to chafe and
> easier to raise, reef, and lower than a full batten mainsail. It is certainly easier to
> ...


I've got to wonder how much experience the guy whose post you cited actually has with full-battened mains... I see no reason why they can't be hoisted or reefed while reaching, for instance. or why they're more prone to hanging up on lazy jacks (which should be retractable, anyway), and so on...

The problem with full battens, from your perspective, is that they run counter to your expressed desire for simplicity, and economy... A _PROPERLY CONFIGURED_ f-b main will cost more, and require a bit more in the way of complexity in order to function properly... Chances are very slim you're gonna find a used full-batten main that will work on your existing sailtrack without some modification, for example... You're sounding a bit like the customer who wants something of high quality, and wants it made quickly, and at a bargain basement price... you need to decide which 2 you want...

What do you perceive to be the advantages of the junk rig? I think trying to fit them to a masthead rig is a losing proposition, but perhaps that's just me...

My suggestion remains as it's been from the start... Simply find a main that will fit your sailplan, at a price you're comfortable with, and _go sailing_... I used brokerage sails for the first several years I owned my boat, they were fine, and I learned a lot about what I wanted in my sails when I finally got to the point where I had North make a set for me... I somehow managed to sail up to the Bay of Fundy, 2 trips south to Cuba and the Bahamas, out to Bermuda and back, before having anything other than used sails on my boat, or making the decision to go with a full-battened main... Just find something that will fit, is serviceable, and _GO_... It's not like you're making a decision you'll have to live with forever, after all...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> yeah. i had to run right after i posted it and then, in the car, i happened to realize how silly that question was. of course it needs reef lines and points. a junk sail doesn't need reef lines because it has no boom, really. each batten has a parrel that holds it to the mast. and each of the battens at the 'reef points' has a sheet attached to it. so, it automatically has a new tack and clew once it is lowered into the lazy jacks.
> 
> a full batten bermuda still has a boom, where the sheet is attached, and each batten is not strongly attached to the mast...at least not strong enough to be a new tack. so, it needs a new tack and clew when reefed.
> 
> ...


we reefed our hobie 16 sails all the time down here


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Carol Hasse is far more knowledgeable, and can explain the pros and cons far better than I... (Sorry about the format, copied from a pdf):
> 
> I've got to wonder how much experience the guy whose post you cited actually has with full-battened mains... I see no reason why they can't be hoisted or reefed while reaching, for instance.


i quite agree with you about that. while i was on the way to teach class, i was thinking about it and you could hoist sail anytime you can alow it to luff. and i can't see how you can hoist a battenless sail while facing downwind ( as he says you can do so where ever the wind is coming from ) since you wouldn't be able to get it to luff that way.


> or why they're more prone to hanging up on lazy jacks (which should be retractable, anyway), and so on...
> 
> The problem with full battens, from your perspective, is that they run counter to your expressed desire for simplicity, and economy... A _PROPERLY CONFIGURED_ f-b main will cost more, and require a bit more in the way of complexity in order to function properly... Chances are very slim you're gonna find a used full-batten main that will work on your existing sailtrack without some modification, for example... You're sounding a bit like the customer who wants something of high quality, and wants it made quickly, and at a bargain basement price... you need to decide which 2 you want...
> 
> What do you perceive to be the advantages of the junk rig? I think trying to fit them to a masthead rig is a losing proposition, but perhaps that's just me...


well, no. i couldn't do a straight up junk rig ( which is really just a full battened lug sail ) with this set up. you'd probably have to move the mast forward and you'd definately have to have an unstayed keel stepped mast.
but one of the things that makes the junk rig so easy to handle is the full battens. full battens are supposed to give better sail shape ( although, unlike regular full batten sails junks use stiff battens and it's best for windward performance if camber is built into each panel ) and junk rigs are known for ease of reefing. by going full batten, i was hoping to get some of these qualities with my present rig. however, as you note, for the money, i might not be able to do that. although, it seems a hobie sail can be gotten, with battens, for a fairly decent price. maybe decent enough to give a taste of full batten sails, for a season ore so, before investing bigger money in them.


> My suggestion remains as it's been from the start... Simply find a main that will fit your sailplan, at a price you're comfortable with, and _go sailing_... I used brokerage sails for the first several years I owned my boat, they were fine, and I learned a lot about what I wanted in my sails when I finally got to the point where I had North make a set for me... I somehow managed to sail up to the Bay of Fundy, 2 trips south to Cuba and the Bahamas, out to Bermuda and back, before having anything other than used sails on my boat, or making the decision to go with a full-battened main... Just find something that will fit, is serviceable, and _GO_... It's not like you're making a decision you'll have to live with forever, after all...


true. thanks for the pdf quote. that was very thorough.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> but one of the things that makes the junk rig so easy to handle is the full battens. full battens are supposed to give better sail shape ( although, unlike regular full batten sails junks use stiff battens and it's best for windward performance if camber is built into each panel ) and junk rigs are known for ease of reefing.


I think you are making _WAY_ too much of the whole "ease of reefing" thing...

There are few things simpler, or more easily accomplished, than reefing a 140 square foot mainsail with a properly configured slab reefing setup... Chances are that simply raising your anchor, or bringing the boat alongside a dock, are likely to present more of a challenge than tucking in a reef on a 27-footer with a high aspect main as small as yours...

I also think you are underestimating the ultimate cost of the necessary modifications made to a Hobie main to suit your purposes... You don't just install grommets in the luff and leech of such a sail, and call them reefing cringles, for instance...

These sort of needlessly complex 'solutions' rarely result in setups that are simple, effective, reliable, or economical in the end...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack

get the used cal27 sail from ebay $200 is a steal

then seacrh for a roached battened main to play around with

its great this way as you will have stock sail and then a "performance" trick sail to fool, around with

you can modify or not that sail add a reef or not etc...dont go spending mega bucks fixing a used hobie sale but that doesnt mean you cant tinker with it

who knows you might have the best of both worlds this way one sail to keep stock and the other to have fun...

simple really

also hobie 16 sails are reefable as are other cat sails even full battened so just look for one that has these add ons

I taught classes down here on hobie 16s and trained on them for doublehanded national team races.

fun stuff


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> I think you are making _WAY_ too much of the whole "ease of reefing" thing...
> 
> There are few things simpler, or more easily accomplished, than reefing a 140 square foot mainsail with a properly configured slab reefing setup... Chances are that simply raising your anchor, or bringing the boat alongside a dock, are likely to present more of a challenge than tucking in a reef on a 27-footer with a high aspect main as small as yours...
> 
> I also think you are underestimating the ultimate cost of the necessary modifications made to a Hobie main to suit your purposes... You don't just install grommets in the luff and leech of such a sail, and call them reefing cringles, for instance...


i hadn't thought that, actually. originally, i had thought the sails would have reef points. i learned, during the course of this thread, that it looks as if they don't. i don't really know, that this point, what it would cost to add reef points to the sail.



> These sort of needlessly complex 'solutions' rarely result in setups that are simple, effective, reliable, or economical in the end...


that's the purpose of threads like this; learning what is economically and practically viable.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I stopped using battens in mains back in the early 70s. I can easily reef a main on any point of sail, including dead downwind, in under a minute. No regrets! Headsails don't need battens, nor in the mast furling mains. Nor do any other mainsails. 
Battens suck!


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

It depends on the level of performance you are happy with. I do not subscribe to the idea that "this works for everyone".

I would never want a main without battens. I care about sail shape. But that's just me. If your boat is a poor performer with serious design issues battens are not going to make a difference. You have other problems.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Brent Swain said:


> I stopped using battens in mains back in the early 70s. I can easily reef a main on any point of sail, including dead downwind, in under a minute. No regrets! Headsails don't need battens, nor in the mast furling mains. Nor do any other mainsails.
> Battens suck!


that's two votes for no battens at all. not sure it would be very easy to find one like that, though. probably much harder than finding full batten.

well, this week, hopefully, i will have a real idea what free sails i have available to me. i call, tomorrow, to set up a time to look at the free sails the marina has. if i find a decent main that fits, regardless of the battens it has or doesn't have, i will not spend extra money on another mainsail....at least not now. too many other things to do, on the boat. i will be looking to find a main and maybe two or three jibs, ranging from a jenny to a storm jib.

who knows...i may get lucky and find what i need. honestly, since i am going t o run a furler, the only real reason i am looking for a storm jib is to have one to use if i try the cutter set up, in the future. it doesn't hurt to prepare for 'what if" when you get the chance to do so.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

ok. update time. not going to worry overmuch about the batten issue, at this point, although i will keep in in mind in case i have a choice one way or the other. however, i have decided one thing.

i am going for a self tacking jib.

i like the hoyts jib boom. i can't afford the grand forespar wants for one but i don't need to. i can fabricate. i won't use a continuous bend, as in the original design. i don't have access to a tubing bender. although you can bend tubing without a bender, by packing it full of sand or water, that's far more work than it's worth. i can weld and fabricate. so, i will do so. it's the angles that are important. i have drawn plans for a jib boom and jib boom pedestal that will maintain the same angles and motion as his original design without the bending. i had thought of having an auto exhaust place do the bend but none round here have a madrell bender so you'd get that accordian look to the inside radius.

it has been suggested that not using a jenny, on a boat 'designed to use one' would create weather helm. but, of course, that is not an issue. the sailplan balance is designed based on the fore tringle and not the actual jib sails. it has also been said that i would have poor performance, without a jib, especially in the summer. that is, possibly a concern, although there would be nothing keeping me from hanking on a jenny and using it as it normally would be, with the jib boom sheeted in tight. however, i am willing to risk it.

for one thing the early year cal 27s have greater sail area in relationship to displacement than either of the following versions. 

another thing is that guy i quoted above, who had a few years experience on these boats, said that they were under all the canvas they could handle, in light airs, with a jenny. he advised to reef early. 

and, finally, a jenny is at it's best on the wind. as you come off, on a reach or run, they lose efficiency. the hoyts jib boom lets the jib keep sail efficiency of the wind or on it...gaining in performance since a lot of a jenny's area isn't working at it's best when it's not on the wind.

so, i think the increased ease of sail handling will be worth it. i won't have to worry about my inexperienced crew getting the jib sheets bound on the winches and that kind of thing. one line to trim the sail. one line to furl it. one for the outhaul. 

i have already figured in the difference in usable fore triangle and it will put my boat in the same sail area/displacement catagort as a cal 2-27.

i think the possible drawbacks are worth the many benefits. and, like i said, nothing to keep me from deciding to use a jenny, the normal way, if i go to the boat and there is too little wind for the 95% jib.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> i am going for a self tacking jib.
> 
> it has been suggested that not using a jenny, on a boat 'designed to use one' would create weather helm. but, of course, that is not an issue. the sailplan balance is designed based on the fore tringle and not the actual jib sails.


Uhhh, I don't believe that is entirely accurate, in actual practice...



captain jack said:


> and, finally, a jenny is at it's best on the wind. as you come off, on a reach or run, they lose efficiency. the hoyts jib boom lets the jib keep sail efficiency of the wind or on it...gaining in performance since a lot of a jenny's area isn't working at it's best when it's not on the wind.


Well, if you think a genoa loses efficiency off the wind, wait until you try a self-tacking jib...


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> i hadn't thought that, actually. originally, i had thought the sails would have reef points. i learned, during the course of this thread, that it looks as if they don't. i don't really know, that this point, what it would cost to add reef points to the sail.
> 
> {snip}


Sounds like a good excuse to practice your palm-and-needle skills on those lousy-weather days.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Sounds like a good excuse to practice your palm-and-needle skills on those lousy-weather days.


true


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Uhhh, I don't believe that is entirely accurate, in actual practice...


the whole 'science' of sail plan balance is, prety much theoretical. i am pretty sure computers can be used to predict things like that, now, but my boat was built before that technology. the CE of a sail is only accurate if the sails are sheeted in to the center of the boat. once you ease the sheets, it changes.

however, the rated sail area for these boats, like 360 sqft, is the area of the main and the fore triangle. a 155% jenny would make the sail area around 484 sqft.

there is a difference in the CE of a 100% and a 155%, but that is a difference in the individual sail's CE. the boat was designed based on the CE of the main and fore triangle. the CE of the 155% jib is closer to the stern than the CE of the 100% jib. however, the jenny represents a greater percentage of the entire sail plan. when you draw your line between the individual CEs of each sail and go to find the total CE, the percentage of each sail comes into play. i don't have the time to calculate the actual numbers, right now, but the jenny represents 55% more sail area than the fore triangle. that will be move the total CE farther forward on the connecting line, counter acting the rearward shift of the head sail CE. similarly, if you reduce the area of the actual jib, say you go to 75%, te individual headsail CE will move forwards. but, since the 75% jib represents 25% less headsail area it will make the headsail area less of a percentage of the entire sailplan and counteract the individual sail's CE move.

where that would be an issue would be if you only had one sail. if i sail under a 155% jib alone, the boat might be balanced well enough to sail ok because the jenny's CE is farther back. but, if i



JonEisberg said:


> Well, if you think a genoa loses efficiency off the wind, wait until you try a self-tacking jib...


i haven't come to this decision without a lot of prior research. there is a loss of sail area from a jenny to a self tacking jib. a boomless self tacking jib does nothig to control sail shape that a normal jib or jenny doesn't do. a jenny tends to begin losing shape as you move off the wind. the head twists and the clew pinches in. running, it requires a whisker pole ( a jib boom ) to keep it out wing and wing, otherwise it's just blanketed by the main. and i'm not just going by the different posts and sites on that. my holiday has a 110%. i know how it acts off the wind.

most people don't use boomless mains because they don't work as well as boomed mains. a sail is a sail. head sail or main, they work by the same rules.

a standard club footed jib helps some but the jib boom will rise like an unvanged main causing a loss of sail shape control. that follows logic so i don't doubt the web info, there.

the hoyts boom acts like a main with a vang, to keerp the sail shape in control. that also follows logic. it works with mainsails and i don't see the difference with jibs.

it only follows to reason that a smaller sail, working efficiently over it's entire sail area, will create more drive or the same drive as a bigger sail, working inefficiently over much of it's sail area.

but, as you note, i will have to try it to see how it works. but, i think the trade offs, if i notice any, will be worth it.

but, as i said, should it prove needed, there would be nothing to keep me from swapping the smaller jib for a jenny that is run in the standard way. all the tracks and stuff will be there.

i do think it will be useful to have a small storm staysail that i can rig up to help with sail plan balance if i have to reef deeply. that will be something i will be looking into. but, that's a normal consideration in a sailboat.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jack... just wondering if you've looked into retractable bowsprits for assymetrical spinnakers, how about a canting keel, or the newer DSS system, plenty more yet to do before you get her out on the water!    

Just funnin'ya... but listen, ferkrissake just go sailing for a bit first.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Faster said:


> Jack... just wondering if you've looked into retractable bowsprits for assymetrical spinnakers, how about a canting keel, or the newer DSS system, plenty more yet to do before you get her out on the water!
> 
> Just funnin'ya... but listen, ferkrissake just go sailing for a bit first.


----or the beitass from Norse ships. 

Second the motion: go sailing. You'll have so much fun, you won't have time to worry about "stuff".


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I need to go sailing or Ill lose my mind

damn boat projects...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Jack... just wondering if you've looked into retractable bowsprits for assymetrical spinnakers, how about a canting keel, or the newer DSS system, plenty more yet to do before you get her out on the water!
> 
> Just funnin'ya... but listen, ferkrissake just go sailing for a bit first.


:laugher smart alleck! i know it seems as if i am over complicating things. but, i'm really just trying to make sure the boat fits my needs as well as it possibly can, since i am starting out bare poles.

you will be happy to know i'm not worrying about the batten issue, any longer. i have thought about all the input and looked at sail availability. there are a lot of common boats that use a main sail that is pretty much the same as mine is supposed to be ( including a J 24 ). that means, i should be able to find a decent affordable main fairly easily. the marina may even have one.

so, i have taken your advice on that one. that's exactly why i start these threads; to gain input to help me make an edumacated decision. 

sometimes, i will decide along the 'popular' thought line. other times, i may not. different strokes for different folks......am i the only one who always thought that saying was overtly sexual? at least, for a prime time sitcom back then.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> the whole 'science' of sail plan balance is, prety much theoretical. i am pretty sure computers can be used to predict things like that, now, but my boat was built before that technology. the CE of a sail is only accurate if the sails are sheeted in to the center of the boat. once you ease the sheets, it changes.
> 
> however, the rated sail area for these boats, like 360 sqft, is the area of the main and the fore triangle. a 155% jenny would make the sail area around 484 sqft.
> 
> ...


yeah, well... you'll note that I said "In actual practice"... If you think there will be little practical difference between sailing that boat with a 120-130% genoa, or a 95% self-tacking jib - on the Chesapeake, in the summertime - then go for it...

Re the Hoyt jib boom, have you decided what sort of tender you'll be using, and how cluttering up the foredeck on such a small boat will restrict your options? A soft tail or roll-up inflatable will be the only sort of dink you'll be able to stow on deck, if you wanted to go with a hard dinghy instead, you'll be towing it _all_ the time...

That's when the choice to be sailing an underpowered rig on the Chesapeake, in July, might _really_ come to the fore...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> ----or the beitass from Norse ships.
> 
> Second the motion: go sailing. You'll have so much fun, you won't have time to worry about "stuff".





christian.hess said:


> I need to go sailing or Ill lose my mind
> 
> damn boat projects...


actually, i'm going sailing tomorrow ( not in the cal, of course. it's not ready ). i was going to go, today, but we are getting high gusts that they weren't calling for, previously.

all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.

oh. :laugher sorry. i couldn't help myself. i was just watching 'the shining' with my girlfriend, the other day. it was the first time she'd seen it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

it comes down to this, for me:

i have chopped a number of bikes. usually, it's a work in process. i am riding the bike, daily, and i do a ton of planning and prep and then do all the modifications and chopping over night or over a weekend. that way, i can ride to work, the next day.

it's a real PIA. it creates a lot of stress, really. it takes forever and you are constantly explaining what you are planning to do with your half finished chopper. plus, since you only want to be out of commission for a few days at a time, you are stuck living with certain compromises of the factory design.

the chopper i am riding, now, was different.it was a complete ground up build. most of it was hand fabricated, by me in my driveway and garage. half of what did come from some stock motorcycle, i modified to be exactly what i wanted. i went 2 years without getting to ride. it was hard. i spent every available moment, outside of work, fabricating. but, when i was done, i had the chopper i wanted. the one i'd always dreamed of. no compromises. no drawn out half finished project. no stress of scheduling and prepping for work that just has to be finished over night or over the weekend. 

it was far better, in the end, than the way i had done my previous choppers. yeah, it was really hard not getting to ride. but it was worth it. i did the work, put gas in the tank, turned on the ignition, kick started the bike and rode off on a finished chopper. 

i don't have to suffer not getting to sail, to get this boat done the way i want it ( to the best of my ability within the framework of my financial ability). i have two other boats i can sail on. so, why not take the time to consider how i set the boat up, instead of just hurrying it along to get it on the water; leaving the rest as a project as i go along?

the closer i get it to what makes me happy, the less time i will have to spend working on it, and not sailing it, in the future.

that's the way i am looking at it.

as far as the jib boom goes, fabricating such a piece of equipment is exactly what i do. it's right up my alley. so, if it will help the boat single hand easier and give a bit more peace of mind, why not?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> yeah, well... you'll note that I said "In actual practice"... If you think there will be little practical difference between sailing that boat with a 120-130% genoa, or a 95% self-tacking jib - on the Chesapeake, in the summertime - then go for it...
> 
> Re the Hoyt jib boom, have you decided what sort of tender you'll be using, and how cluttering up the foredeck on such a small boat will restrict your options? A soft tail or roll-up inflatable will be the only sort of dink you'll be able to stow on deck, if you wanted to go with a hard dinghy instead, you'll be towing it _all_ the time...
> 
> That's when the choice to be sailing an underpowered rig on the Chesapeake, in July, might _really_ come to the fore...


i was planning on towing a hard dinghy ( i don't trust inflatable boats, really ) from the get go. the foredeck space is very small, really. if i were to try to put a dinghy there, i couldn't open the forward hatch or walk up to the bow. the dinghy would be in the way.

the only practical way to carry a dinghy, on this boat, would be davits off the transom ( which isn't out of the question. it can't be that hard to fabricate dinghy davits ). any other way and it's just going to clutter up the deck space too much.

i am not ignoring the thought that i may want or need to use a bigger headsail, at some time. you are right. wind can really lag, here, in the summer. but, having the jib boom does not rule out the possibility of swapping the jib for a jenny, for a day, if needed. the jib boom wouldn't be in the way of the jenny anymore than a dinghy would be, right? but, having the jib boom does give me other options...like really easy head sail trimming for my seriously inexperienced crew. then, by the time i may need or desire to run a jenny, my crew will, hopefully, have a lot more experence, making the whole thing that much simpler, safer, and comfortable. no harm in that, right?

but, i have to go, for now. i am working on building the composting head and i need to go to the boat and take a few more measurements. talk to you guys in a bit.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

interesting discovery, today. i don't know how many of you remember that free 24' sailboat i was considering taking. however, one of the things i managed to scavenge off of that boat was the main sail. it was from a cal 24. 6 square feet less. the foot is the same but the luff is a foot and a half shorter. it really needs cleaned but it has no rips. it has non-removable battens.

the only thing that concerns me is that the clew is lower than the tack. i am afraid it may be badly stretched out of shape.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

fit it...just might give you a nice pocket

if anything it will work just fine...like being on a first reef, but free so what? 

congrats


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

You are looking at a blown out mainsail. Foot and luff should be perpendicular. To fix, the sail maker will rip out the panel seams, cut out “wedges” and re-sew. Not very practical. If the battens are not removable, how do you fold (and brick) that sail? If I recall, you are in Maryland, if so, take a field trip and go to Beacon Sails.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> You are looking at a blown out mainsail.


that's what i was afraid of. i was going to ask if it could be fixed but you already answered that. i wonder what the cost would be.


> Foot and luff should be perpendicular. To fix, the sail maker will rip out the panel seams, cut out "wedges" and re-sew. Not very practical. If the battens are not removable, how do you fold (and brick) that sail?


 i don't know about anyone else, but i flaked it like i always did my holiday 20 sail. the battens aren't an issue for me. the blown out part is the issue that concerns me.



> If I recall, you are in Maryland, if so, take a field trip and go to Beacon Sails.


yes. that is right. bacons is on their winter schedule which means they aren't open on the weekends. otherwise, i'd have gone in december.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Captain Jack, does it fold into thirds when you are finished? ripping seams and re-sewing is labor intensive and would be done at the loft so you would be paying the prevailing Maryland wage. How badly blown is it? You might want to think about using it as is and buying one that is better suited for you at a later point when you are cruising longer distances.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> fit it...just might give you a nice pocket
> 
> if anything it will work just fine...like being on a first reef, but free so what?
> 
> congrats


a pocket in the leech isn't a very good thing to have.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> Captain Jack, does it fold into thirds when you are finished?


it folds in half. the foot is only 9 feet. it's not an overly big bundle once you have it folded.



> ripping seams and re-sewing is labor intensive and would be done at the loft so you would be paying the prevailing Maryland wage. How badly blown is it? You might want to think about using it as is and buying one that is better suited for you at a later point when you are cruising longer distances.


that's an idea. it would be something, for now....at no extra cost.

unfortunately, to my eye, it looks pretty beat. i'd say it's a 2" drop over a 9 foot span.

the rest of the sail looks ok. i might contact a sail maker, if the marina doesn't have a main i could use, just to see what the cost might be. it would at least be worth checking. nothing to lose just asking.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

captain jack said:


> the only practical way to carry a dinghy, on this boat, would be davits off the transom ( which isn't out of the question. it can't be that hard to fabricate dinghy davits ). any other way and it's just going to clutter up the deck space too much.


Hmmm, just because you _can_ do something, doesn't necessarily mean you _should_...

Davits on a Cal 27 ??? OK, now I get it... You're determined to make Bill Lapworth turn over in his grave, right ?

)


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> a pocket in the leech isn't a very good thing to have.


I didnt specify leech jajaja I just said having a pocket close to the boom(thats where I thought it was) would simply be ok especially in light wind...

if you are way too saggy then yes of course tighten it up
we did this at a canvas shop that did canopies...basicaly we did a major sail overhaul INCLUDING cuutting the sail down and reattaching the tack in a shorter position

we also undid and resewed the middle to tioghten it all up

(cheap btw...of course a pro sail maker is first going to say get a new sail for 800-1k and if you say no hell say well it will be 300 to tighten it up and of course youll say no to that so you left with other options...

fix the sail yourself, keep it as an emergency back up or have another source like a simple canvas shop untie and resew some middle panels to tighten up the sail)

but we(our old boat) were not on a performance sailor, or new boat...so it was fine for us...in fact we did about 5 thousand offshore and coastal miles like this with this said sail.

peace


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ps I wouldnt do davits either, davist on small boats affect helm, the windage in big wind pushes your stern to leeward in essence giving you more weather helm...weight...ugliness etc...

for your boat a small ply dink on the cabintop is a tried and true method for carrying dinks on small boats...that or kayaks/canoes on the decks.

your at the limit for carrying dinks as on the bow you will practically have no way to access the pit or sail or ways to hank on and off not to mention you will probably have to use the over the side anchoring method(did that on my folkboat since it was so small)

anywhoo

how much space(height) do you have now between cabin top yes poptup trunk and boom?

you cant have it all ways...especially on small boats sacrifices have to be made...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, just because you _can_ do something, doesn't necessarily mean you _should_...
> 
> Davits on a Cal 27 ??? OK, now I get it... You're determined to make Bill Lapworth turn over in his grave, right ?
> 
> )


i don't presently own a dinghy for a tender ad i'm not actually that concerned with dinghy placement, right not. the fore deck is certainly too small for that, at any rate. towing the tender is probably the best option.

i'm not sure why the thought of hanging the dinghy off of the transom would be so terrible. i have seen boats of the same size range with such a set up, while sailing my dinghy around the inner hrbor. they didn't look terribly off to me.

but, thoughts of a tender and what to do with it aren't exactly at the top of the priority list, right now.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> I didnt specify leech jajaja I just said having a pocket close to the boom(thats where I thought it was) would simply be ok especially in light wind...
> 
> if you are way too saggy then yes of course tighten it up
> we did this at a canvas shop that did canopies...basicaly we did a major sail overhaul INCLUDING cuutting the sail down and reattaching the tack in a shorter position
> ...


yes, well, i'm not looking to win races, either. i just want to enjoy sailing.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> ps I wouldnt do davits either, davist on small boats affect helm, the windage in big wind pushes your stern to leeward in essence giving you more weather helm...weight...ugliness etc...


it was just a thought i had, on the spur of the moment, when the subject was brought up. i haven't given serious thought about the issue. not really all that important, at this moment. when i have considered it, i was thinking about just towing the tender.



> for your boat a small ply dink on the cabintop is a tried and true method for carrying dinks on small boats...that or kayaks/canoes on the decks.


not a canoe or kayak. i don't really like canoes and i've no experience with kayaks and i'd probably end up swimming, except for the fact that i don't know how to swim, if i tried getting in either from my sailboat. i was thinking a small FG dinghy.



> your at the limit for carrying dinks as on the bow you will practically have no way to access the pit or sail or ways to hank on and off


that's why i wasn't even thinking of carrying the tender up there.



> not to mention you will probably have to use the over the side anchoring method(did that on my folkboat since it was so small)
> 
> anywhoo
> 
> how much space(height) do you have now between cabin top yes poptup trunk and boom?


not going to be enough to mount a dinghy there. if i didn't lower the boom and if i didn't build  10" high cabin top ( and tossed the tender overboard every time i wanted to pop the top and actually stand up ), i could probably fit one under the boom.

it would have to be a tiny one to fit in that space, anyway. the roof is 5' wide and 6' long.



> you cant have it all ways...especially on small boats sacrifices have to be made...


my thoughts, too. for me, i am not really concerned about absolute performance. i wan't to enjoy sailing about and cruising around exploring the bay. my girlfriend has absolutely no experience in any type of boat. i want to set the boat up in such a way as to minimize any problems that may require skilled crew participation. it is that goal that has been driving my considerations of sail plan. a self tacking jib, especially one designed along the lines of the hoyts jib boom, will really make handling the jib much easier. if it makes the boat a tad slower than it could be, it's a trade off that i am fine with making. as you said, you can't have it all ways. you have to choose your priorities and make sacrifices in other areas. different people have different priorities.

i want to build a higer cabin top, and get rid of the pop top set up, because i am already tired of walking around stooped over, every time i go below. i do a lot of physical work and it won't be much fun on my back spending every minute below bent over. so, the cabin top, and lowering CE by lowering the boom, are more important, to me, than stowing the tender on top of the pop topcabin roof.

when you rule the fore deck and the cabin top out, it doesn't leave very many options for tender stowage.

i'll just have to cross that bridge when i come ti've certainly not made any plans to build dinghy davits. however, i'm not opposed to the option, ad i said. i've seen it in boats around the size of mine and i don't think it's any uglier than a small boat with the fore deck or cabin roof cluttered up with an upside down dinghy.

where ever you stow it, it will have some windage effect. so, maybe just towing it is just the best possible solution, in this case.


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

How could a jib get much simpler than 2 sheets and a halyard? If you can't tack a 27' boat without the aid of a self tacking jib boom, maybe power boating is in your future, you might just enjoy it more. You don't need experienced crew, you don't need to learn procedures, pretty much just turn key, sounds a little more up your alley.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Boredop said:


> How could a jib get much simpler than 2 sheets and a halyard? If you can't tack a 27' boat without the aid of a self tacking jib boom, maybe power boating is in your future, you might just enjoy it more. You don't need experienced crew, you don't need to learn procedures, pretty much just turn key, sounds a little more up your alley.


lets see....what could be simpler than a halyard, two sheets, two winches, and going on the fore deck to change sails when a blow is coming? that's a tough one. let me think.....

how about one halyard, one sheet, a jib furler, and mechanical advantage through block and tackle rather than winches?

lots of people use jib booms and self tacking head sails. a few types of boats come with the hoyts jib boom as standard equipment.

i have owned a 20' sloop for 17 years. i know how to tack a bloody jibsail.

if you must know, i am worried about my girlfriend learning to use winches properly while sailing. she's s city girl. she has very limeted out doors experience. i took her hiking and rock climbing for the first time, in her life. some of that was a bit intimidating for her. she was absolutely terrified the first time i took her on the motorcycle.

she had never been in any type of boat before. she is somewhat afraid of the finger pier and of walking on the fore deck, while at the dock. i am quite sure the sensation of heeling is going to be a bit frightening for her, at first. it took a bit before she got ok with the bike leaning around the corners. i am just trying to simplify the whole learning to sail experience, for her. maximize her comfort level and minimize the risk of things going wrong.

i'd take her out in the holiday20 to teach her. i taught my ptrevious girlfriend to sail on that boat. except that there are issues with that route. for one thing, i need to do work on the trailer before i can use it. about 2 years ago, i noticed a secton of the tongue had rusted through. i need to yank the bot off of the trailer, cut out that section, and weld a new piece in before i can use it.

but, even then, that boat is not near the water. i'd have to trailer it to her place ( an hour from my place ), then to the water, then back. not a huge issue, except that there is no place at her home to park a trailer. so, that means an hour to her house, pick her up, tow to the water and set up to sail, sail, tear down, drive her home so she can go to work the next day, tow the boat home another hour, then drive back to her house for rest of the weekend. it's not a situation that would allow us to go out very frequently, especially with the current price of gas.

this boat is moored 15 minutes from her house. it's in the water. we could go sailing whenever we pleased with no big issues.

as far as jib handling is concerned, i just get this image of her just happening to cross the line on the winch the very day an emergency happens and having to cut the line...all in a moment of crisis. murphy's law has always worked overtime for me so i have learned to minimize the chance of stuff going wrong. if she has one line to handle, that's a lot less chance of something going wrong.

if this boat sailed well under main, alone, i'd get her used to sailing, that way, then work her into using the jib. that's what i did with my previous girlfriend, actually. but, this boat isn't set up that way. it's got a skinny little main and a big fore triangle.

however, i really don't see the reason you take such issue with the idea of a jib boom on my boat. we live in a time when motorcycles are built with a kill switch attached to the kickstand because people can't handle something as stupidly simple as putting the kickstand up before they take off and you think i should give up sailing because i want to add a jib boom, which is something that has been done on sailing vessels for a few hundred years?

good thing you aren't overly judgemental. i'd hate to see what you'd have to say if you were.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> it was just a thought i had, on the spur of the moment, when the subject was brought up. i haven't given serious thought about the issue. not really all that important, at this moment. when i have considered it, i was thinking about just towing the tender.
> 
> not a canoe or kayak. i don't really like canoes and i've no experience with kayaks and i'd probably end up swimming, except for the fact that i don't know how to swim, if i tried getting in either from my sailboat. i was thinking a small FG dinghy.
> 
> ...


I like your thought process you are thorough

btw I want bagging davits...in fact I have them on my boat right now, they are beefy rated at 150lbs each and I just had some new mounts and backing plates made...the reverse transom sort of helps keep things put to and I plan on using one davit side to haul the main outboard which is on a retractable spring loaded mount.

they came with the boat so Ill use them, especially for coastal and inshore cruising here...I have a very very small 8ft zodiac dinghy for 2 adults with a 3.5 johnson on it so it will work just fine

first boat with davits for me so why not..? however I have seen some very bad uses of davits and massive systems even on big boats that simply overload and weigh the transom...

in the end like you say...just try stuff out...

ps I have seen plenty of catalina 27s, pearsons, columbias and the sort under 30 with davits but on small boats weight and how high up it is is paramount and more of an issue than say on a 40 footer

cheers


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

If you are concerned about your girlfriend using winches, probably is just best to keep her off of the boat. There are many other thing on a boat that can crush kill and mame, winches only being a small part of that. A furler, that's great, absolutely, if you feel that offers you more control with your tiny jib then all the power to you. I would enjoy having a furler, and I would put a %163 or a %135 on it so I had the option of sailing when the conditions got light, and could reduce size (albeit at the cost of shape) in a blow. 
How much mechanical advantage were you thinking of putting on this Rig? You might want to make sure it's enough for your girlfriend, being a city girl and all, 12:1, 20:1? Better be careful with all that line in the cockpit now, another safety hazard. Ooh, and you better not try to go to weather, sailboats tend to heel in such a situation, also dangerous. It may sound like I'm being an ass (partially because I am) but if you are totally bastardizing a perfectly good boat so your girlfriend, who is clearly incompetent and shouldn't be on the boat at all (from what you say) won't hurt herself on the winches? 
You think a swinging pole or sliding car on the foredeck is safer? Just sail man, do it, and maybe have some confidence in your girlfriend, she might even surprise you.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

winches werent popular till the late 50s early 60s, on small boats so for what its worth winch handling isnt a go no go deal breaker so I hope you can help her learn

shell get used to it! jajaja


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> winches werent popular till the late 50s early 60s, on small boats so for what its worth winch handling isnt a go no go deal breaker so I hope you can help her learn
> 
> shell get used to it! jajaja


it's not that i don't think she can learn. i am sure she can. but, as her mother put it, i have' expanded her horizons' quite a bit. some of it, like the motorcycle, really terrified her, at first. with sailing, it's not just her learning to sail. it's her learning to sail while getting used to even being on a boat. she was pretty freaked the first time i helped her step into the cockpit from the finger pier. and, when we are on the boat sanding and it gets lively in the wind, she was fairly freaked about that. she never let on how badly. she tries all these new things for me and braves through it ( although she was in abject terror that first time on the motorcycle ) but i can see how afraid she was/is by the look in her eyes.

when we cross the ke bridge to go to the boat, she says 'that's a* lot* of water'. and she's told me that she'd never want to go on a cruise liner becase the thought of all that water scares her. but, she's willing to face those fears to go out in 'all that water' in my little boat because she wants me to be happy. i'm just trying to have some consideration for her fears and make the process as nonfrightening as possible.

if i am making her learn all these new skills while she is trying to overcome her fears, it's going to make the process that much harder for her.

i have no sails, so getting sails is a cost i will have to deal with, anyway. it took me all of a half hour, after i researched the hiyts boom, to draw plans for a boom that would work the same way and i wouldn't need a mandrell bender to make. the cost will be mimimsal because i can fabricate it, myself.

and, it wouldn't proclude the use of a jenny, if i wanted one, anymore than a dinghy on the fore deck does.

so, i think, it's a win win situation.

the idea that i'm 'ruining a perfectly good boat' is just ridiculous., you know? for one thing, the boat would have been scrapped if i hadn't bought it to fix up and sail. if it bothers Mr. Lapworyh that i fix it up in a way other than he designed it, then he can visit me and tell me so, himself. personally, i think he'd rather the boat sailed than junked, even if it means it gets altered a little.

of course, another thing is, if adding a jib boom 'ruined' perfectly good boats, i'd think they'd stop selling the things.

i notice, any time you go to do something a little differently than everyone else, people think it's just the most horrible thing. i guess that's why the people who convert slops to junk rigs have their own yahoo group and don't really post on sailing blogs. i'm sure everyone would think that was ruining a perfectly good boat, too.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Jack, can you post the make and model of your boat in your signature line? I have a hard time remembering what you own. This is the boat that you got essentially for free? You do not need a Hoyt style staysail spar. You can do the same thing with a traveler, and car mounted on the deck ahead of you mast. Either way you go this is going to cost you a fair chunk of change (you will need to purchase a special built staysail (and no, a jib has the wrong cut) along with all the other gear. I would recommend buying a blade or a lapper and forget about the staysail. Either one of those sails can be trimmed by hand (if you are worried about over-rides, junk the winches and get a pair of cam cleats). Or you can learn to single hand your boat. It’s not that hard, and your lady friend will appreciate no having to work as a deck hand which is the way Mrs. B likes to sail.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> I like your thought process you are thorough


thanks. i appreciate the kind words.

i actually am very thorough. i am sure, from some of the posts, that a lot of folks see me as this harry homeowner type guy with a lot of crackpot ideas just going off and ruining my perfectly good boat. but, actually, i do a lot of research, planning, and thinking before i do anything. all of these threads that i have posted about tis kind of stuff are a part of that research and thought process.

i have a problem i need to find a solution to and i look for a solution. many of my solutions start with traditional sailing vessels, like jib booms and full batten sails ( junk rigs ). i am an old fashioned kind of guy and i like traditional sailing vessels. i ditched the worn out boomed lateen on my dinghy and designed and made a sprt rig for it. it's the best sail i have ever had the pleasure to use. i love it. great to wind. pulls like an ox off the wind. low CE. great sail. but, 18 years ago, when i did it, everything i read about sailboat design said such traditional sails didn't sail to wind very well. only Thomas Firth Jones, in his book om low resistance boats, sang the praises of sprit sails. and, he was right. now, a lot of home builders are using them. there are web sites dedicated to them. but, not back then.

and, recently, when i converted the dinghy to a shallow longf keel, everyone said it would ruin the boat. it was a mistake. i took a lot of time and did a lot of research and scale drawings. i experimented with various kinds of fixed keels; from moderate fins to full length shallow keels. after a lot of performance tests, i settled on a keel that is very much like what you see on a grand banks schooner. it works beautifully! sails just as close to the wind as the dagger board. it's a lot less tender in a blow and it tracks so much better in chop and big wakes. if my experiments had proven that a long shallow keel wouldn't perform well, i'd have abandoned the idea. as it is, i am outrageously satisfied with the results and glad i plotted that course.

the point is, although i thought these things would work from the very beginning, i didn't just go out and slap something together. i put a lot of thought and research into getting it right. that's what i am trying to do with this boat, too.

some of my considerations will not yield fruit. some will. that's how things are usually designed, anyway. if there weren't people willing to do that kind of 'outside the box' thinking, we'd all be living in caves and eating our meat raw.



> btw I want bagging davits...in fact I have them on my boat right now, they are beefy rated at 150lbs each and I just had some new mounts and backing plates made...the reverse transom sort of helps keep things put to and I plan on using one davit side to haul the main outboard which is on a retractable spring loaded mount.
> 
> they came with the boat so Ill use them, especially for coastal and inshore cruising here...I have a very very small 8ft zodiac dinghy for 2 adults with a 3.5 johnson on it so it will work just fine
> 
> ...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> Jack, can you post the make and model of your boat in your signature line?


yeah. sure. i'll do that.



> I have a hard time remembering what you own. This is the boat that you got essentially for free? You do not need a Hoyt style staysail spar. You can do the same thing with a traveler, and car mounted on the deck ahead of you mast.


the hoyts jib boom has the additional benefit of better sail shape, off the wind. i know you can do self tending with a curved track and a car, modifying the clew of the sail to allow several poits of sheet attachment but, then, you are losing sil area without helping efficiency.



> Either way you go this is going to cost you a fair chunk of change (you will need to purchase a special built staysail (and no, a jib has the wrong cut) along with all the other gear. I would recommend buying a blade or a lapper and forget about the staysail. Either one of those sails can be trimmed by hand (if you are worried about over-rides, junk the winches and get a pair of cam cleats).


hold the boat.....

are you saying that i can trim this jib without using the winches? i was told, in another thread, that this was not possible because the sail is too big. if that's the case, that changes everything. i can teach her to sail and work her into using the winches after she is comfortable sailing. as i said, my biggest concern, was the winches.


> Or you can learn to single hand your boat. It's not that hard,


i can single hand a sloop, actually. see, i taught myself how to sail with that dinghy ( which cost me $75 18 years ago ) and, when i decided i wanted a bigger boat, my girlfriend bought me that holiday 20 as a birhday present. we got it for $800 because the giy had just gt a killer deal on a slightly bigger catalina and needed to sell it...in november.

since she was terrified of drowning ( she used to have nightmares of drowning almost every night ), she wouldn't get on the boat. she would follow me up to the lake, hook up the jib stay after i raised the mast, then go shopping in hanover. after i was done, she'd unhook the jib stay so i cxould lower the mast. then we'd go to dinner. i'd just single hand the boat. it wasn't hard to learn to handle the jib. a lot of work that first november in the strong november winds  but not hard to do. eventually, she gave it a try and i taught her to sail.



> and your lady friend will appreciate no having to work as a deck hand which is the way Mrs. B likes to sail.


it's a lot more relaxed sailing if your girlfriend handles the jib and you handle the rest. plus, it's a lot less frantic in a crisis. plus, it involves your partner in your activity. it becomes her activity and not just something you drag her along for. i found that to be true with my first girlfriend and i think it will be true of Krissy. she likes to be involved. otherwise, she tends to get bored.

i still remember that first sail, single handed. it was such a blast! maybe the best moment in my whole life. it was blowing around 15kt with gusts higher. the sailboat launch was closed for the winter. the water was fairly shallow at the ramp i was using so, i left the dock with the centerboard only down a quarter of the way and the rudder not down.

i got out in deeper water and i'm running about putting the rudder down, lowering the centerboard, trimming the jib and main...all at once....while the gusts were going pretty good. holding the tiller steady with my foot because my hands were busy. Gods! she leapt across the water like a thoroughbred! the spray in my face and the cold wind in m hair! it was exillerating beyond the ability of words to convey. she always was a fast boat. but that first time, single handed....i have never been so alive before....or since.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

hmmmmm there is this post, from a thread on another site:"My ole CAL 2-27, I don't remember even using a winch handle, if'n I even owned one."


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Jack good stuff

I regularly could trim and sail my excalibur 26 with no winches...especially on upwind legs...all you do is head up luff sail retighten or losen etc...

same on downwind legs...on a broad reach its harder but doable...

btw you can make your own jib boom especially iif you have a track...like george says


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> Jack good stuff
> 
> I regularly could trim and sail my excalibur 26 with no winches...especially on upwind legs...all you do is head up luff sail retighten or losen etc...
> 
> ...


yeah. i know you can do it if you luff up before you trim. i wasn't thinking about that as an option but i don't see why not. good point.

oh, i was going to make the jib boom, myself. i don't have the 1k plus to buy one. i designred a set up, using hoyt's idea, that would allow me to make it without having to bend the tubing. basically, just like his design.

the pedestal for the jib boom would be at a 23 degree angle(leaning backwards, of course) from the deck. you have to figure in the angle of the deck when makin the pedestal. 23 degrees is on a perfectly level deck. the top of the pedestal is capped by a round plate. in the center of that plate is a shaft, threaded at the top. all at the same angle of course.

the boom would be welded to a piece of solid round aluminum at a 57 degree angle ( so that the boom rises as it moves from this cylindrical piece of aluminum). this solid piece will be center drilled to allow the pedestal shaft to pass through. a shelf for a bearing race will be turned on either end of the solid piece. so, the solid piece will not be much different than a motorcycle wheel hub. in fact, i'd use temkin bearings in either end of it.

then, the boom is fitted over the shaft and the retaining nut is torqued to the proper value and pegged, so it can't back off.

where his hoyts boom pivots at deck level, using bearings mounted in the base fitting, my design would pivot at the top of the pedestal. that would have two benefits.

the first, and biggest, benefit is in ease of manufacture. you don't need a super expensive piece of equipment to bend the boom tubing. i can weld and i have a metal lathe to turn out the solid pivot piece. so, no extra equipment costs or high fee to hire someone with the appropriate bender.

the second benefit is that the bearings would not be at the bottom of the pedestal. this would reduce a bit of the sideways force ( thrust ) being exerted on the bearings. although, i chose temkin bearings, instead of sealed bearings, because they are designed to deal with thrust, it never hurts to minimize side force on bearings.

it would have a little more of a traditional jib boom appearance, too. not an issue, for me. i don't mind the look of the hoyts jib boom but i have read that some people do.

and, like the hoyts jib boom, it doesn't need a travelor. also, like the hoyts jib boom, it won't allow the clew to rise when running... which is something that can't be said of the traditional club footed sail.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Have you considered having lunch with your girlfriend on the boat while at the dock? It may wiggle a little in a breeze or if a boat passes, but not much. Gradually acclimate her to the idea. Buy a spare pfd. You need one too, you know.  From what I've seen, the new ones are at least semi-comfortable. 

Help her get comfortable, without pressuring her. Take a day off from 'working on the boat' mode and spend a day in 'enjoying the boat and your lady' mode. You never know, a little cheese, bread and wine on a sunny Spring day on the water could carry a lot of weight.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Have you considered having lunch with your girlfriend on the boat while at the dock? It may wiggle a little in a breeze or if a boat passes, but not much. Gradually acclimate her to the idea. Buy a spare pfd. You need one too, you know.  From what I've seen, the new ones are at least semi-comfortable.
> 
> Help her get comfortable, without pressuring her. Take a day off from 'working on the boat' mode and spend a day in 'enjoying the boat and your lady' mode. You never know, a little cheese, bread and wine on a sunny Spring day on the water could carry a lot of weight.


actually, that was one of the reasons that she works on the boat with me, sometimes. it gets her used to being on the boat and moving around on it. with the winds, this winter, it's been lively at dock a number of times. after we work, we often sit and enjoy just sitting and talking in the cabin or in the cockpit. and, it is working.

she gets in the boat fairly comfortably, now. at first, that step off the pier into the boat was like jumping off the top of the grand canyon, for her, even though i was holding the boat still while holding her had to help her in. she moves around the cockpit or below decks ok, now. she is still very leary of walking on the deck, though. only in completelly still waters, for that, at this point.

the other day, when i measured up the fore triangle and took measurements to design the jib boom, the wind was up a bit and the boat was moving some, not terribly but some, she was too scared to come forward. i took my measurements and called them out for her to write down. i was going to have her hold the dumb end of the tape, for me.

still, even when she is comfortable being in a boat, on the water, it's going to be another step being in a boat that is heeled over and moving over waves. i will take her out on fairly calm days, to start with. that way i can get her used to it by degrees ( as well as getting her practice at sailing ). but, it's still going to be something for her to have to get used to.

she's great, though. i have totally taken her out of the world she is comfortable with, in a lot of different areas, and it's made her have to overcome some real fears. and, she's done it because she wants to be a part of my life.

women can be really amazing. guys are usually risk takers, by nature. not all guys, but most. so, it's not a big thing when a guy faces fear for a woman. heck, i almost think we feed off of the thrill. i know i do. but, you take a woman, one who isn't naturally a risk taker, and she will stand up to her fears, even serious phobias, just because she loves you.

even still. i respect the fact that she is willing to do that, for me, and i want to make that process as easy as i can. i am sure she will love sailing, once she is used to it and past the fear....just like she, now, loves riding on back of my bike. this is just like what i did when she was getting used to riding on the bike. i was really gentle with her, making sure i didn't speed or anything like that. some guys are real buttholes and they go out, with woman who has never ridden before, and they rip and tear and hot dog it.

i don't want her early sailing experience to be terrifying, for her.


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## Boredop (Feb 21, 2013)

Nevermind


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

oh...i almost forgot. PFD. yeah. i always wear one while sailing. i don't swim, right  i don't wear it while walking around the boat. i do need to get her one, though. i have spares i used to carry on the holiday but, they aren't the comfortable to wear ones, like mine. so, i will get her one of her own that she feels is comfortable.

it's funny, i actually bought one of those inflatables, last year, but i haven't used it, yet. after i bought it, i was reading the manual and it says you shouldn't use them if you can't swim! i will probably use it on this boat, though. i have never capsized, before...come close a few times that first year, sailing in wind that was really too high for the dinghy. made me a better sailor. lol. but, i know that the dinghy has a fair chance of capsize, even if it has never happened. but, i seriously do not think i will capsize this boat very easily  so, the inflatable should be fine on this boat.

actually, that was one of the things that made me think about getting a keelboat, in the first place. i never even came close to being in a situation where i thought i might capsize that holiday 20. but, i've been sailing in the bay, now, and it's where i would take Krissy sailing. i know guys who go fishing, there, so, i know that it can get bad really quickly, without warning. i was getting the holiday ready to take out so, she could go sailing with me. it's a centerboard boat so, no matter how stiff it is, it can capsize like any dinghy. a keelboat can be capsized ( although it's usually waves that capsize them, and not wind ) but they resist the wind greater, the farther they heel. it's a safety feture of keelboats. i don't mind risking capsize in the dinghy. it's just me. but, knowing her safety would be in my hands made me think of a keelboat and that's why i was casually browsing craigslist, when i came on that first boat. the free one. and that boat made me begin to look, in ernest.

really, if it hadn't been for her, i might never have bought a cruiser. the holiday20 was big enough and just wanting a boat with a keel and a cabin wouldn't be enough to make me spend the money on one, without my financial situation improving exponentially. but, when it comes to my girlfriend's safety, the benefits of a ballasted keelboat are a real motivating factor. thanks to that, i have 'moved up in the world' of sailboats.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

tomorrow is a big day. i meet with their guy to check out the sails. wish me luck. hopefully i will be full of good news by dinnere time tomorrow  i feel like a kid xmas eve. yay! sailor santa!


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Jack- Did you get your girlfriend surveyed?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

aeventyr60 said:


> Jack- Did you get your girlfriend surveyed?


:laugher no. i inspected her myself. so far, she's holding up well. :laugher

you're just terrible!

hey. since i have been talking about the hoyts jib boom design, has anyone seen this? i wonder if they are related.

A BOAT ON WHEELS. | Modern Mechanix


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

captain jack said:


> :laugher no. i inspected her myself. so far, she's holding up well. :laugher
> 
> you're just terrible!
> 
> ...


Do you have any training/certifications/education in doing such inspections?

Maybe a good topic for another thread?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

aeventyr60 said:


> Do you have any training/certifications/education in doing such inspections?
> 
> Maybe a good topic for another thread?


nothing official but a lot of 'on the job' training.:laugher


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jajajaja! make sure she is up to standards and specs...cant risk failing there!

the boat that is

anywhoo

je je


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

picked up all the sails, today. there are a number of them. too windy to look at them, today. then it rained. anyhow, i will let you know what i have once i get to look at them. one set is from a grampian 31'. so, while sitting on the boat, i did some sail plan CE calculations. i figured out the CE for the rated sail plan, which is 142 sqft for the main and 207 sqft for the fore triangle. i also figured out the CE for a 155% jenny. and i figured out the CE with both main and jenny.

so, i see why it sails great with jenny alone. the CE of the entire sail plan is a little before the mast. the CE for the jenny, alone, is only slighty forward of that. barely noticable. so, with jenny alone, the balance is almost the same as with full canvass. in fact, the slight forward shift would help reduce the weather helm in a blow.

the CE with jenny and main is a little farther aft than the CE of the main and fore triangle, but not a lot. that would explain that one guy saying they had too much weather helm, in higher winds, if you didn't reduce sail early.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

just for documentation purposes, this is how i got it:

[URL="

i took this picture today.

of course, most of the work i have done, so far, is inside. but that's all been sanding and scraping, wiring and other stuff that won't make the boat look any more finished, even if it is necessary towards getting it finished.

i have started making new wood panels and doors to replace missing or damaged ones, inside. plus, i started on my composting head.

i will post some before and after interior pictures once i get some of this work to a point where it will bear fruit. no reason to show you guys pictures of the plowed fields. i'll wait til the crop starts growing.

but, even with the weather being a big hold up, for me, i think it looks much improved. not quite the derelict it looked, before.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Sounds like you & your lady make a good team.

Hang in there, Spring is only a week away (by the clock; what the real world does is another thing entirely) .


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

damnit rainy season is soon to start here...cruising will be in november...bummer


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> damnit rainy season is soon to start here...cruising will be in november...bummer


wow. i am really glad we don't have that kind of rainy season, here!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

captain jack said:


> wow. i am really glad we don't have that kind of rainy season, here!


well I am exaggerating bit...the real rainy season is late july, august, september and october....sometimes into november

most boats have arrived already from mexico... and will stop before summer up north begins...

in reality if my boat is ready this month or next Ill have some time to make some short trips...

thats the plan at least

day sailing no prob...but when it really rains its no fun really

peace


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> well I am exaggerating bit...the real rainy season is late july, august, september and october....sometimes into november
> 
> most boats have arrived already from mexico... and will stop before summer up north begins...
> 
> ...


Might be worse -- it could be snow!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

exactly! jajajaja


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

yep. no matter what, there is always something to be glad for.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

too windy today to look at those sails, unfortunately. three of the sails are labeled for a grampian 31. one of those sail bags is labeled mizzen. i take that to mean it was a yawl or ketch. however, sailboat data lists the boat as a cutter rig. not sure what's up with that and i won't know til i get to look at the sails. however, if one of those sails is the forestaysail, i shoulf be able to use it, according to the specs on sailboatdata. 

the main would be to big, though.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Grampian 31 was available as a ketch as well.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> Grampian 31 was available as a ketch as well.


ah. now that's a bit of useful info. do you know where i could get sail plan info for that sail plan? i would assume it had a narrower main than the sloop version. it would be nice to look it up while i wailt to be able to look at the actuall sails.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Try the Grampian group on Yahoo.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> Try the Grampian group on Yahoo.


cool. thanks. boy, there is a group for everything, on yahoo.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

http://classic31.ca/images/pic9.gif

this is a picture of one. it does look as if the ketch rig has the same main, in hight, but with a shorter boom. i might have gotten lucky. i might get both head sail and main out of it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

hey guys. can you do me a favor? i posted some mock ups of the coach roof i intend to build for the boat, in the first thread i started about this boat. they are based on actal photos of my boat, instead of the brochure drawing. they are '3D'. i am down to a choice of two variations. i would love your input. thanks.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cal/105521-looking-past-present-owners-1970-through-73-cal-27s-29.html


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry, captain jack, all I see is a 'picture removed' box at post # 219, here.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Sorry, captain jack, all I see is a 'picture removed' box at post # 219, here.


you had me worried. lol. it's not that post. it's number 288. i must have removed those images ( post 219 ) from my photobucket without realizing it would take them off here, too. no matter. those images are outdated. the new images are in 288 but, i will post them here, too, although they don't match up with the subject of this thread. but, it's my thread. i suppose i can highjack it. 

here are the two options from post 288. i prefer the one on the right but i'd like the input of others, before i decide.

[URL="


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

in other news:

most of the sails they had were jibs. the grampian sails included a main. i brought the grampian sails and the largest of the other jibs along this weekend. when we went to the boat, we took what shelter there was, from the wind, and i measured the sails. here is what i found:

cal 27 rated sail dimensions:

I= 34.5'
J= 12'
P= 27.7'
E= 10.2' i double checked this, today, on my actual boom. 10.2' is the absolute max

the grampian 31 sails:

I= 24.4
J= 8.5 luff is 26.8'

P=26
E= 10.5 this one kills me. it's 2 inches too long to use. the sail is in great shape. far better than the cal 24 main, i have. i am gooing to see if Bacon can give me an estimate of the cost to trim the leech to shorten the main. if i do it battenless, with no roach, it should be cheaper than with a roach and batten.

there was another jib, by itself. it was a brand new sail. you could tell by the crispness of the material. it needs a bit of cleaning, though. just dirt. no mildew or anything.

it measured:

I= 30'
J= 15.5' the luff is 25.7

i can use this sail. but, i won't be able to use it with a jib boom. so, that project will go on the back burner, i suppose. that ends up being like a 120% jib.

the cal 24 mainsail is a bit shorter in the luff than a stock cal 27 main. not much, though. 6 sqft less. however, as noted, it needs a bit of repair. the best estimate i can get, without them looking at the sail, is $100 to $300, depending on what they need to do to fix it. of course, when they look at it, to give me an accurate price, it may turn out that they don't think the sail is worth it.

so, that's how it stands, at the moment.

i didn't check the grampian mizzen. pics of the set up show that the luff is a good bit shorter than the main. although, maybe i should check it out. you never know.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

There's a good possibility the boom will handle the extra couple of inches.. I was able to (just) absorb an extra 6 inches of "E" on our boat using a J-105 Main.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> There's a good possibility the boom will handle the extra couple of inches.. I was able to (just) absorb an extra 6 inches of "E" on our boat using a J-105 Main.


i had hoped for that. so, i measured from the tack point on the boom to the very end of the boom, where the topping lift would hook. that was 10'4". that's a 2" difference...in the wrong direction.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

It's a pretty boat, nice lines.

I like the coach roof on the right...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

azguy said:


> It's a pretty boat, nice lines.
> 
> I like the coach roof on the right...


thanks!  that's the one i like the best, too.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Ah, sorry about that.

You're not hijacking your thread, you're....widening its focus....yeah, let's go with that.

Which is the most comfortable to lean against?  (You know it's going to happen.)

Which is least work?

Which gets you on the water faster?

The one on the right looks as though it gives you more room, I'm all for that.



> P=26 E= 10.5 this one kills me. it's 2 inches too long to use. the sail is in great shape. far better than the cal 24 main, i have. i am gooing to see if Bacon can give me an estimateof thecost to trim the leech to shorten the main. if i do it battenless, with no roach, it should be cheaper than with a roach and batten.


Can you do the pants-cuff-trick? Roll it a couple of inches, flatten the seam with your seam-rubber, stitch it good'n'proper, and call it "custom reinforcement", or something.

Whatever you do, it'll be cheaper than buying new sails. Maybe celebrate the Vernal Equinox with a little daysail?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Ah, sorry about that.
> 
> You're not hijacking your thread, you're....widening its focus....yeah, let's go with that.
> 
> ...


both are the same as far as work. it's just a matter of angles. the one on the right would give better head room.



> Can you do the pants-cuff-trick? Roll it a couple of inches, flatten the seam with your seam-rubber, stitch it good'n'proper, and call it "custom reinforcement", or something.
> 
> Whatever you do, it'll be cheaper than buying new sails. Maybe celebrate the Vernal Equinox with a little daysail?


that is true. i guess, it would depend on what was cheaper, for the benefit, repair and adding reef points to the cal 24 sail, or modification of the leech of the grampian sail....and adding reef points.

i would love to get to sail by the time Eostre rolls around. but, that might be pushing it. i have to haul the boat and take care of that stuff, before i can really sail it. it needs scraped and the bottom paint needs done, if nothing else. and, of course, inspecting the through hulls and prop need done while it's on the dray.

then again, i don't suppose it would hurt to go for a little sail before i scrape the bottom 

honestly, although i'd like to finish the work before i begin to sail her ( just because i know i will have a hard time choosing to work when i could sail lol ), the only things i really NEED to do before i could start sailing her, for real, are to get the running and standing rigging ready, scrape and paint the bottom, and make sure all the through hulls, and other stuff visible during a haul out, are good. anything else is stuff you don't need just to daysail.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

captain jack said:


> here are the two options from post 288. i prefer the one on the right but i'd like the input of others, before i decide.
> 
> [URL="


I think the one on the right matches up better with the existing deck/cabinsides.. and you'll get slightly larger area of increased headroom below.

I like the left one's 'sleeker' look but it doesn't match up as well with the rest of the boat IMO.
You might also, just for kicks, try one with more camber to maintain the headroom and lower the side panels a tad...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> I think the one on the right matches up better with the existing deck/cabinsides.. and you'll get slightly larger area of increased headroom below.
> 
> I like the left one's 'sleeker' look but it doesn't match up as well with the rest of the boat IMO.
> You might also, just for kicks, try one with more camber to maintain the headroom and lower the side panels a tad...


good point about matching the existing lines. that's probably what makes me like the looks of that one better: it matches the boat.

that's a good idea. the extra camber would help melting snow run off easier, too.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

here is a sail update.

i have two mainsail options. one is to have that grampian sail altered to fit my boom. basically, the leech would be trimmed from the lowest batten to the new clew location. that would be 100 bucks plus whatever it costs to add reef points.

the other option that has become available is a used, but nice looking, hobie 18 mainsail. i can get it complete with battens for 100 bucks, maybe a little less if i dicker. i would need to add the cost of reef points, whatever that may be.

in both situations, i need to make sure the sails will clear my backstay. on paper, they will. it's been too windy to check the grampian sail. the hobie sailguy is willing to sign a bill of sale that will permit me to get a refund if it doesn't clear my backstay.

i did the drawings and CE calculations and, based on the different shapes of the sails, the CE works out about the same, in a front to back direction, on both sails and the stock sail ( what it's supposed to have ). i treated the deep roach hobie sail like a 4 sided sail for CE calculations. calculated as a 3 sided sail it will work out even better but i want to be realistic in my preliminary evaluations.

when figured into the sail plan, using a 100% jib ( basically the fore triangle area ), the total CE is only a few inches different than the stock rated CE; not enough to make much difference. the difference is caused by sail area differences. the hobie sail has a greater rated area than stock, the grampian has less. the diffrerence in percentage of over all sail area is what caused the small difference in total CE, for each sail plan.

anyhow, if i do find that there is too much weather helm, i can reduce the mast rake. that should be enough.

i go to see the hobie sail in two weeks, when i will have the extra cash.

more in this exciting news story as details emerge.


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

With the hobie sail your boat may look a bit like a Sailfish or Marlin with the large roach and battens. Which you may like or not. (maybe a large Sailfish/Marlin decal on sail)
Your boat looks like it means serious business heading into a sea with that raised bow.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sidney777 said:


> With the hobie sail your boat may look a bit like a Sailfish or Marlin with the large roach and battens. Which you may like or not. (maybe a large Sailfish/Marlin decal on sail)
> Your boat looks like it means serious business heading into a sea with that raised bow.


actually, i have always liked the looks of catamaran sails. not sure why. maybe, it's because they remind me of a bird's wing; with shape created by the deep roach. i never thought about it til your post. one good thing, the hobie sail is mildly colored. mostly white but it has two blue stripes, similar to the blue on my boat, so, it ought to look like it is meant to go on the boat. thankfully, it's not all orange and yellow, or something too crazy. wouldn't look too good on my boat, if it was.

thanks. i do think it has a a nice sheer line. you can really see it well in this pic:

[URL="


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

captain jack said:


> i want to address this point, for a minute.
> 
> first, my main thought is not additional roach. it's a full batten sail. the roach comes in because i am pretty sure the most readily available full batten sails will be for catamarans. i could be wrong about that, though. i won't know til i go searching and Bacon sails is still in their winter hours. plus, i haven't seen the sails the marina has.


Full battens on monohulls are not new, not just for catamarans, are very, very popular, and have been popular for the better part of 25 years. Only in the last 8-10 years have people begun moving to top two full and the rest partial. For cruising full battens work well. If you really want to tweak the sail then top two full can be better in light winds and allow for easier sail shape tweaking. If I had to put a number on it I would guess that 75-80% of my monohull customers have full batten mains.... If you are not seeing them on mono's you are simply not looking...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Maine Sail said:


> Full battens on monohulls are not new, not just for catamarans, are very, very popular, and have been popular for the better part of 25 years. Only in the last 8-10 years have people begun moving to top two full and the rest partial. For cruising full battens work well. If you really want to tweak the sail then top two full can be better in light winds and allow for easier sail shape tweaking. If I had to put a number on it I would guess that 75-80% of my monohull customers have full batten mains.... If you are not seeing them on mono's you are simply not looking...


really? i would't think it was anywhere near that percent, here, or i'd have surely noticed.

on the lake, in pa, where i have spent the better part of my time sailing, the only full batten sails are on catamarans. of course, i think 90% of the boats are older and don't belong to people with money. that may have something to do with it.

i haven't spent years on the chesapeake. i have only been sailing on it's waters for a year. however, the other boats i have seen, sailing, haven't had full battens. but that certainly doesn't mean they aren't much more common that i thought. just the inner harbor, alone, is a sea of masts. the dozen or so sailboats i have seen sail out of there haven't had full batten sails.

same with rocky point, where i have seen a lot more sailboats, sailing, than at the harbor. the ones at the inner harbor seem to spend a lot of time at the marina. for all the boats, there, you don't see a ton sailing out of there, on any given day. in fact, many days, if not most days, i am sailing, there, i am the only sail on the water. not so at rocky point.

still, that's only a tiny percentage of the sailboats on the bay. i will have to look in my picture files. i have thousands of sailboat pics that i have snatched off of the internet. maybe a few of them have full batten mains and i never noticed.

informative post. thanks. that's encouragement to run the full batten main, if it will clear my backstay.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Full battens doesn't necessarily mean 'catamaran' like roach.. it just means the battens are full length.

You'd be hard pressed to see the difference at a 1/4 mile away unless you were totally focused on that issue. I suspect you've 'seen' more than you realized...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Full battens doesn't necessarily mean 'catamaran' like roach.. it just means the battens are full length.


what i was thinking is that full battens do have a distinctive look on a sail. i wasn't going by roach depth.



> You'd be hard pressed to see the difference at a 1/4 mile away unless you were totally focused on that issue. I suspect you've 'seen' more than you realized...


good point. i'd only be able to tell on boats within a decent eyesight range.

i did find one boat, in my picture files, that has full battens. it's the Japanese designed Zen. i had forgotten that one.

i don't doubt that they are used on monohulls. the replies in this thread show that. i just didn't know they were used that much, in monohulls, at the time i started this thread.


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