# Sailboat SMASHED into LA pier. Video!



## MarkofSeaLife

Very, very lucky no one was killed.

Boat needs 5200 and gaffer tape.


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## Lazerbrains

The full video is here: 




Looks like the skipper got in over his head. 
Redondo is known around here for it's light winds - motoring is common.
Many of these guys don't know how to deal when actually faced with strong conditions.

Interestingly enough, the other side of Palos Verdes in San Pedro typically has 24kts in the afternoons.


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## Slayer

Would like to hear the story behind this.


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## mbianka

And that Ladies and Gentlemen is why you want to avoid finding yourself clawing off a lee shore.


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## eherlihy

Watching the ideo, you see the helmsperson throw the tiller hard to starboard, apparently trying to avoid the pier, in the moments before the boat is swept into the pier. Because the boat was moving so slowly, this had the effect of stalling the rudder and stopping the boat. In effect, the boat was practically hove-to when the final wave hits.

I'd like to know what happened, as the boat apparently had steerage early on in the video (it manages to gybe once - almost twice). Somehow, the boat did make it out of the harbor. Why was the main down completely? Also, why was a crewman on the starboard deck messing with the jib? What happened to the engine? What happened here?

At the end of the full video, you can see that she's totally trashed (looks like it went through a blender).

[EDIT] Catalina 25?

I feel sorry for the owner of the vessel.


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## Faster

We owned one of those boats for 15 years... a Martin 242. A very weatherly boat, she could have easily sailed her way out of that if proper measures had been taken earlier.. This crew didn't have the chops, by the look of it.

I wonder how fast these conditions came up..


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## chip

Twilight Race boat capsizes and hits King Harbor Pier - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums


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## Faster

When these boats race one-design they lash the outboard below amidships.. From the SA discussion it appears the breeze went from 10k to 30+k in a matter of minutes. That boat's a bit scary for an inexperienced crew in that kind of breeze, and perhaps they had an issue with their jibsheets (likely badly tangled with all that flogging - BTDT).

Bad day to 'stow the motor' as it turned out but in reality the motor may not have helped them much in that surf - but had they sailed/motored their way out of that in the early stages of the longer vid I think they'd have been OK.

A miracle no one was driven into the pilings on the way through.


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## rbrasi

The SA discussion is pretty.....pretty good. Not as much armchair MFing as I would have expected. I know I have been in situations that tested my seamanship, but very little of it caught on multiple cameras. Can't wait to get the inside dope from those involved. I have sailed into King Harbor several times and never considered how treacherous it could be. All of Santa Monica bay is tranquil, right?


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## Arcb

In the first video, (I'm out in the woods with only my phone right now so haven't been able to watch the full length video yet) I think a little 5 or 6 hp outboard might not have been the best tool for getting them out of that situation. 

The Genoa looked like it should have been big enough to provide plenty of propulsion. Hard to say whether they couldn't get sheeted in or didn't get it sheeted in, but I've seen outboards not work or not do their jobs on more than one occasion too.

I bet we won't be seeing this vid on the it's easy to sail/no need to learn to sail well threads.


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## Faster

M 242s do not have a 'big genoa' as a rule.. their PHRF code is 375M - little jib, oversize main and long pole. That looked like the standard 242 jib to me.

Had they been able to trim the sail they could've avoided drifting so close to the pier, as far as I can see.. It's almost as if they were unaware of the exact situation until it was too late...


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## Arcb

Fair enough, I was estimating it's size off a smartphone video, but it looked plenty big enough to drive the boat.


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## SanderO

Should not have been sailing anywhere near there... dumb.


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## krisscross

Trying to claw away from a lee shore with only a jib? Not likely to happen.


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## Barquito

From the longer video, it looks obvious that they were battling some rigging issues. The main and boom were in the cockpit, the jib was luffing. Once they were in this predicament (possibly avoidable), the only thing they could have done was drop an anchor, or jump overboard. They really seemed fairly calm right before being launched into the pier.


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## bones92

You can see the helmsman pushing the tiller over, but without any forward motion, it does little to no good. The jib just aggravates matters by pushing the bow to starboard.

Ironically, they seem to get the jib filled and pointed in the right direction... seconds before the wrong wave hits. It seems as though perhaps they were occupied with the main, and nobody was concentrating on keeping the jib filled and forward motion maintained.

Someone on Sailing Anarchy mentioned grabbing the jib sheet by hand and at least trying to get a bit of forward motion for steering. That was my first thought, too.

Ironically, I had something similar happen, where I had just a jib up (a lot more than this Martin 242, but a lot less wind, too) and the wind made steering very hard. I did have an OB ready, but it was "in gear" and it took me precious seconds to realize it before shifting into neutral, starting, and going into reverse.

I am not armchair critiquing the crew, as I'll bet they're all better sailors than me. However, I can easily see how one can find themselves in a situation like this very quickly and without realizing it.

I will admit that this could easily have been me. Therefore, some take-away lessons for meare:

1. Jib sails can interfere with steering, especially when approaching leeward obstacles.
2. Keep the OB ready to fire up in seconds.
3. Keep an anchor ready to deploy... meaning already at the bow, already tied off with enough line to be useful.
4. Keep sailing the boat! Don't lose focus on keeping the boat where it needs to be.


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## eherlihy

Here, thanks to our friends at NOAA and ActiveCaptain, is a chart mosaic of where the incident occurred. Note that the depths on the charts are in Fathoms(!) and the subscript is feet. It appears that the boat was in 2 fathoms, three feet (or 15 feet of water) when it was launched into the pier.


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## contrarian

For all you armchair skippers, Know this:
Stuff happens on boats. Especially in these kinds of conditions. For example the jibs clew could have ripped out. Now put yourself in that position before you go accusing these guys of being dumb. It's easy to second guess but when it is happening to you for real, you may realize how quickly things can deteriorate and how little control you really have.


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## eherlihy

I haven't seen much armchair skippering here, and very little of it over in SA. It seems that people are genuinely interested in learning from this incident. Yes, we see that they were having trouble with the sails, and yes the helmsman throws the tiller hard over. We are also wondering why the main was down. These are all facts contained in, or questions brought about by, the video. 
With one exception, I don't think that anyone here has been judgemental. For an online forum, I think that's pretty good!


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## sailingfool

What's the problem there - with high twenties of breeze that jib alone was a proper and probably ideal way to go to windward. See this video for jib only sailing 






krisscross said:


> Trying to claw away from a lee shore with only a jib? Not likely to happen.


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## Lazerbrains

sailingfool said:


> What's the problem there - with high twenties of breeze that jib alone was a proper and probably ideal way to go to windward. See this video for jib only sailing


It's a Martin 242, they don't sail well with jib only - they need their main.


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## sailingfool

Lazerbrains said:


> It's a Martin 242, they don't sail well with jib only - they need their main.


I have no experience with a Martin. My experiences with a variety of other ODs configured with large, non-reefing mains and small jibs, that when you are not racing and the breeze gets above 25, the easy and practical way to go home to windward is with just the jib. Maybe a Martin person can clarify if it would differ in that circumstances.


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## bones92

Does a deep keel facilitate sailing with a job only better than a shallow keel? My instincts would imply so, but I'm curious to hear from knowledgeable experience.


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## Faster

We did sail our 242 jib-only in heavy breezes, but I can't recall trying to do so in seas like that. What puzzles me about the video here (long version) is that they had plenty of sea room to begin with, but appeared to drift/sail into that area almost deliberately.

If they had been racing (very likely, with the motor stowed below) it could be they took a hard knockdown when that squall hit, doused the main, and in the process got the jibsheets all gnarled up due to flogging. That can take some time to clear up and may explain the apparent lack of an effort to get some weathering early. In a big sea, with little steerage getting the boat moving to weather with jib only would be difficult, I can see that. The bow would blow off before the fins could get a bite and start to make headway. btw I wouldn't make too much of the boom being down in the cockpit too, these boats don't generally use a topping lift.

But it looks like they could have reached away (rather than need to beat) from the early moments of the video - however without being there and on that boat it's very hard to say or know what happened until the end when it's painfully obvious (and incredibly lucky that no one was seriously hurt - save the boat itself.)


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## Lazerbrains

Faster said:


> What puzzles me about the video here (long version) is that they had plenty of sea room to begin with, but appeared to drift/sail into that area almost deliberately.


That was my first thought watching the video also.

FWIW, it should have been no suprise to the skipper re. the high winds - they were forecast for 24 hours before.


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## Arcb

Just got around to watching the full length video. I observed that he gybed and gave up some sea room at about 1:00, while another boat sailed by on what was maybe an appropriate line. It seems like a reach would have been adequate to get some protection from the seawall to the North. I'd be curious to know what was going on out by the green mark that caused them to get so close to the pier. Trying to kill time while they got their outboard or tried fixing their fouled jib?


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## krisscross

sailingfool said:


> What's the problem there - with high twenties of breeze that jib alone was a proper and probably ideal way to go to windward.


 Does not look like it worked on this particular boat.


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## sailingfool

krisscross said:


> Does not look like it worked on this particular boat.


For sure, but not too many sails work OK if you are unable to trim the sheets...why the jibsheets were inoperable seems the crux of the crash.


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## krisscross

Even with jib sheets working properly it is very easy to stall the boat under jib alone, especially in heavier seas. And with most boats you just can't point as high with jib alone as with main or combination of both sails. In close quarters every few degrees can make a big difference.


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## eherlihy

Sailing under the jib alone would bring the Center of Effort (CE) forward of the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR), and the boat would have lee helm. The sail shape that is seen in the video (lots of draft) would only make this worse. In order to point better, the boat needed some main sail up to bring the CE of boat aft of the CLR.








- credit School of Sailing.net

Here is a slightly better illustration showing a fractional rig;








- credit Jet14.com

The boat would have difficulty in making way to windward under jib alone and, as you can see in the video, would make considerable leeway.

In this situation, it appears that this boat was trying to make way to the harbor to the north-north-west of his position in a wind coming out of the west-north-west. That seems that it would have been challenging with both sails up.


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## Arcb

^^^ immediately before they hit the pier they needed to sail upwind, but at the start of the (long) video, the relative wind direction was much more manageable.

I'm curious why they gybed twice. They either accidentally or intentionally gave up the sea room they needed to sail into the harbour. Two gybes in that wind represents a lot of sea room.


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## Sal Paradise

Armchair quarterback ; 
Should have given up a lot earlier. 

A minute out I would have been screaming at the top of my lungs: GET THE @#$%^ ANCHOR OUT!!!!!!!! 2 minutes out - GET THE MOTOR OUT!!!!!!! And I would have steered for the beach, or just away from that pier. Trying to save the boat almost killed everyone. You have to know when to you are effed. 

I surely would have ordered everyone to jump off the boat, or thrown them off myself. NO WAY I'm risking taking a ride like that. God they were lucky to live.


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## Capt Len

Sometimes the windward jib sheet is fouled and sail bags and now it's down wind on that tack unless you have a knife.


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## Barquito

Like being in a bike crash. Sometime the best thing you can do is just lay it down. Better than plowing head-first into a tree (pier).


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## gonecrusin

That crew was very, very lucky. I hope they take up golf or tennis because they used up all nine lives in their boating life.


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## sailingfool

krisscross said:


> Even with jib sheets working properly it is very easy to stall the boat under jib alone, especially in heavier seas. And with most boats you just can't point as high with jib alone as with main or combination of both sails. In close quarters every few degrees can make a big difference.


True, but not the concern you have facing 30 knots of wind, as both sails present too much sail area, the issue is the best way to reduce your sail area, not whether.

While its a fact that sailing with a jib alone, the vessel will not point as well as with a jib and main, the loss of something like 5% of close-windedness is not much of a penalty for the benefit of good sail handling in higher winds. The issue is when the wind strength is to strong for the sail area of a reefed main and jib combined, the jib alone is the successful next step for most vessels. While a vessel like a large mainsail like this Martin 242 can sail well under main alone, in 30 knots of wind the boat would be difficult to handle to windward, and I doubt would go as well to windward with main alone as with jib alone. However the more common cruising boats with sailplans of larger jibs/smaller mains, such as my current P31-2, those boats will not sail effectively upwind under main alone, but will do so under jib alone.

For this unfortunate Martin, a wildly luffing jib could provide no drive, if they had been able to trim a jibsheet, they would have been on their way. Again I think that the crux of the story.


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## krisscross

If a crew of 4 can't properly control a single sail, they likely got what was coming to them.
I have not sailed this particular design but my gut feeling would have been to use a reefed main and just a small jib section unfurled or no jib at all. I sail under jib alone at times but all the boats I know would not have been great performers under jib alone when going upwind for the reasons I mentioned earlier.


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## Lakepapa

krisscross said:


> If a crew of 4 can't properly control a single sail, they likely got what was coming to them.


If that's how you feel about that crew then you really need to amend your signature line.


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## krisscross

Lakepapa said:


> If that's how you feel about that crew then you really need to amend your signature line.


 Perhaps you are right, but if you have followed this exchange you would see that it was not my point that this crew was unable to control the sail due to some jib sheet malfunction. with 4 people on board it would have been easy to clear it up. My opinion is that it was a mistake to use jib alone in this particular situation. Under jib alone they were unable to go up wind and unable to maintain steering control (slow movement in biggish seas). Since we all pay for mistakes we make, mishaps like that present an opportunity to analyze what went wrong and what if anything could have been done differently.


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## Faster

krisscross said:


> If a crew of 4 can't properly control a single sail, they likely got what was coming to them.
> I have not sailed this particular design but my gut feeling would have been to use a reefed main and just a small jib section unfurled or no jib at all. I sail under jib alone at times but all the boats I know would not have been great performers under jib alone when going upwind for the reasons I mentioned earlier.


The racing mains on these boats generally don't have reefs.. just the way it is. As I mentioned earlier:



Faster said:


> If they had been racing (very likely, with the motor stowed below) it could be they took a hard knockdown when that squall hit, doused the main, and in the process got the jibsheets all gnarled up due to flogging. That can take some time to clear up and may explain the apparent lack of an effort to get some weathering early. In a big sea, with little steerage getting the boat moving to weather with jib only would be difficult, I can see that. The bow would blow off before the fins could get a bite and start to make headway. btw I wouldn't make too much of the boom being down in the cockpit too, these boats don't generally use a topping lift.


These boats are great fun and high performance for their day. But the first time you run into a wall of breeze it's pretty scary and takes a while to figure out to handle it. I don't know this crew's credentials so it's hard (and probably wrong) to speculate too much.. Certainly they paid a high price.


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## zeehag

until the boat was placed /drifted/was blown into the space in which they were caught--between piers of redondo beach pier and channel opening of king harbor, portofino and the third marina, i forgot its name -- they could have been towed to safety. once into that smallish area, only an engine will remove you. is not merely lee shore, but southerly drift, tidal influences and other issues--difficult to escape without engine use. as racers have no engines, this is a bad situation from earlier out into the pacific.
i know htese carry no anchors, and i know they use no engines--but a vhf would a been ideal before they got into the situation. 
iff they were experienced and knew the area, they woulda known or shoulda known this would happen. oopsy. they undershot the entrance to the channel to the marinas. that , without engine., is , apparently a fatal error(for the boat) the water is shallow and it is a surfline challenge. worse than a lee shore. oops again.
i have sailed in and out of that channel. i have powered in a motor yacht in and out of that channel. i used to live in king harbor in 1991 or so. was a minute ago, but the place does not change. you can sit in the bars on th e pier of redondo and drink and watch the fun and games. even from sitting there, drinking, you know the entry into that space is not for sailing. oops again. as the area is a specific challenge, it is difficult for anyone who has not sailed there to armchair the situation. winds eddy there current is running and it is a surfline situation. lee shore holds nothing on this, altho ye must add that to the equation. 
had they been able to free the headsail , they coulda gotten out before hitting surfline. once in that treachery , engine. or do as they did. jump off and wade to the beach.
tragic--avoidable?? mebbe, had they gotten a tow before entering the gap between channel levee and pier they hit.
the undershooting of the channel, whether by not taking into account the 4 kt southerly current, is difficult. we all have done that--but usually with engine on boat. i did that in lost angeles, angels gate--we got to watch the opening of angels gate slide by a few times, as we did not wish to use engine--we tacked--but our rig was intact and nothing be fouled. (we were sailing a coronado 25.)
current to south at that point is 4 kts. we measured. was enlightening.


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## Barquito

Did you see that the News Feed article called that a rogue wave? WTF?

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/news-...t-into-pier-spilling-crew-video-nola-com.html


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## eherlihy

Because the article, reported by Todd Masson, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune, is .... (I'm not sure what to call it). Here it is, and you decide;


> Not everybody who has a boat knows how to operate one. That's as true of sailboats as it is motorboats.
> 
> In a video published to YouTube Monday, the captain of a sailboat near Redondo Beach, Calif., can be seen desperately trying to steer his vessel away from a pier as onlookers gaze out from the structure. It appears he's almost succeeded when a rogue wave races in from the Pacific, grabs the boat and slams it into the pier's supports.
> 
> The crew is thrown into the water and has to be rescued.
> 
> Hard to believe no one was killed or seriously injured.


The sea was full of rogue waves that day... I think that Godzilla was also reported in the area.


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