# Uh-oh, sounds like a new Production Boat might have found its limit...



## JonEisberg

Details still sketchy on this one, but a 55-foot sailboat sank Friday evening off the Big Sur coastline of California. The 2 crew were pulled off by a CG helo crew out of San Francisco...

SAILING ANARCHY has posted a report that it was a new Beneteau 55, and the OP of a thread started there says it was an Oceanis being delivered north for the Strictly Sail Show in Oakland in April...

Somewhat strange how little info seems to be flowing on this one, LATITUDE 38 has yet to pick up the story, for instance. But it might be plausible that it was headed for Strictly Sail, as a press release from Beneteau shows a 55 will be among the boats exhibited:

Oakland Boat Show / Boatshows & Events - BENETEAU AMERICA

...and yet the 55 is absent from Strictly Sail's website listing the boats to be exhibited... So, who knows?

sunk | Sailing Anarchy

Coast Guard Rescues 2 People From Sinking Sailboat Near Monterey | kron4.com

More to follow eventually, I can only presume...


----------



## smackdaddy

> The on-scene weather was reported as six-to-eight-foot high sea swells and 20-to-25- mph winds.


Maybe one of those in-hull portlights stove in from the 20 mph wind and 6' swells? Or maybe the liner separated from the hull and the bulkheads gave way due to severe oil-canning? Maybe the rudder(s) fell out.

I'm thinking this was not "survival-storm" related (the "limits" we typically discuss).

And the crew didn't seem to be injured by the sharp IKEA furniture after slipping on the beer cans rolling around the sole after they spilled from those new-fangled fridges and not having any hand-holds to stabilize themselves.






Hmm.

Carry on.


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> Maybe one of those in-hull portlights stove in from the 20 mph wind and 6' swells? Or maybe the liner separated from the hull and the bulkheads gave way due to severe oil-canning? Maybe the rudder(s) fell out.
> 
> I'm thinking this was not "survival-storm" related (the "limits" we typically discuss).
> 
> And the crew didn't seem to be injured by the sharp IKEA furniture after slipping on the beer cans rolling around the sole after they spilled from those new-fangled fridges and not having any hand-holds to stabilize themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> Carry on.


Yeah, you're probably right, I suppose this is hardly even worthy of mention...

Brand new 55-footers sink all the time, for no apparent reason, after all...


----------



## eherlihy

... attacked by a gang of angry sea otters?


----------



## MedSailor

I bet those open transoms make for really easy helo rescues... 

MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> Yeah, you're probably right, I suppose this is hardly even worthy of mention...
> 
> Brand new 55-footers sink all the time, for no apparent reason, after all...


If we get more than one I'll get excited. It will mean that maybe some "limits" are actually involved. Otherwise...meh.

The theory on the water tank and bow thruster tube is very interesting. I'll be watching that one.


----------



## smackdaddy

I can't tell from the info on SA whether this boat was going from SF to LA or the inverse. I would assume that some pretty heavy beating would have to be involved for the water tank to become a wrecking ball.

My Hunter carries 100 gallons in a tank in the v-berth. So I'm interested.


----------



## MedSailor

I love how all SA posts are one line only.

(this statement is only here to make this a 2 line post)


----------



## gamayun

MedSailor said:


> I love how all SA posts are one line only.


SA'ers pride themselves on pithy.


----------



## smackdaddy

Sounds like some of these are doing just fine in "the limits" (from SA):



> *awayocean, on 01 Apr 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:*
> 
> Delivery Captain here [h34r:]
> 
> I deliver one from Vancouver Canada to MDR,new boat,00000 problems for 1100 nm.We hit 45-50 knots winds South of Mendocino,30% main and no genoa,surfing 14-15 knots,max speed 19.9 / I know but I have pictures and video [] /.
> 
> Like the boat,fast and stable out there,no problems beating against 30 knots, did this North of Newport OR for 40 hours.
> 
> Leaving tomorrow on 57,my brother leaving on 469 today,new boats for the Show.
> 
> Strange they sail 17 nm offshore,lots of crab traps but you better stay close to the shore,3 nm max.


----------



## Erindipity

Latitude 38 is on it:
Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude

The Beneteau is still afloat. Passage Yachts in Richmond, California, is working on a Rescue.

¬Erindipity


----------



## Don L

another sinking boat that didn't sink


----------



## smackdaddy

Is this going to be another one of those - "the limits" had nothing to do with the Production Boat but actually everything to do with her professional captain and crew?

Jon?


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> Is this going to be another one of those - "the limits" had nothing to do with the Production Boat but actually everything to do with her professional captain and crew?
> 
> Jon?


Only time will tell, I suppose... Though I have my doubts we'll ever know _exactly_ what went on out there... 

However, you're probably right, there were quite likely no problems whatsoever with the boat that compelled a presumably professional crew to call for a rescue... In fact, they probably just _imagined_ they were taking on water out there, no wonder they couldn't locate the point of ingress...


----------



## smackdaddy

Actually, I'll cut them a bit of slack. I mean the CG called it hopeless didn't they?

Still - if you're a pro you really should know these things. A "sinking" boat really needs to sink if you're going to retain any credibility as a pro. When a salvage crew has to actually deliver the boat you were supposed to deliver...ouch.

I mean, don't you yourself have TONS of posts about how much you hate this kind of thing in the greenhorn snowbirds of the cruising world?


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, I'll cut them a bit of slack. I mean the CG called it hopeless didn't they?
> 
> Still - if you're a pro you really should know these things. A "sinking" boat really needs to sink if you're going to retain any credibility as a pro. When a salvage crew has to actually deliver the boat you were supposed to deliver...ouch.
> 
> I mean, don't you yourself have TONS of posts about how much you hate this kind of thing in the greenhorn snowbirds of the cruising world?


Nah, I agree completely, this certainly doesn't look good, any way you figure it...

One possible explanation why she might have 'stopped sinking'... Suppose the leak was situated on the starboard side, and they were sailing on port tack when they became aware they were making water... Couldn't locate the source, just keeps getting worse and worse, they presume they're sinking, and decide to abandon...

The boat is left adrift to it's own devices, lying ahull, or perhaps in a sort of hove-to position with a scrap of main still out. Anyway, at some point, the boat basically flops over onto starboard tack, the 'water ballast' shifts to port, and that combined with the windage on the rig heels the boat sufficiently on the new 'tack' to elevate the source of the leak above the water... Hence, no more leak, or at least one now greatly reduced...

Far-fetched, perhaps, but stranger things have happened, no?


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> Nah, I agree completely, this certainly doesn't look good, any way you figure it...
> 
> One possible explanation why she might have 'stopped sinking'... Suppose the leak was situated on the starboard side, and they were sailing on port tack when they became aware they were making water... Couldn't locate the source, just keeps getting worse and worse, they presume they're sinking, and decide to abandon...
> 
> The boat is left adrift to it's own devices, lying ahull, or perhaps in a sort of hove-to position with a scrap of main still out. Anyway, at some point, the boat basically flops over onto starboard tack, the 'water ballast' shifts to port, and that combined with the windage on the rig heels the boat sufficiently on the new 'tack' to elevate the source of the leak above the water... Hence, no more leak, or at least one now greatly reduced...
> 
> Far-fetched, perhaps, but stranger things have happened, no?


Yeah. But not to pros.

If it turns out thus, it just goes to show that the greenhorn snowbirds might deserve a bit of slack if even professional delivery skippers are abandoning perfectly good production boats in F5 conditions.


----------



## Minnewaska

Hoisted off a boat, 17 miles from shore with 8 inches of water in the bilge? That can make it tough to determine the source, but close every thru hull on the boat and what could be left? The rudder post? Easily checked. If they breached the hull itself, it would have gone down. 

Something doesn't add up. Maybe those crappy plastic ball valves didn't close?

I wonder if they had a raft? Not having one, would elevate concern over a backup plan, if the primary problem wasn't quickly identified. Bet the water is pretty cold there.


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah. But not to pros.
> 
> If it turns out thus, it just goes to show that the greenhorn snowbirds might deserve a bit of slack if even professional delivery skippers are abandoning perfectly good production boats in F5 conditions.


Well, I'd say it's yet to be established whether that was "a perfectly good boat" at the time they decided to abandon her, 8" of water above the floorboards doesn't sound "perfectly good" to me, but perhaps you know something the rest of us don't... But I would say if indeed this boat was abandoned too 'casually', the better approach would be to be critical of this crew as well, rather than cut more slack to others who might do so in the future... 

Also, you appear to be making the mistaken assumption so often made that the on-scene conditions are necessarily a determining factor in every decision to abandon a vessel... If one truly believes they are sinking, does it really matter whether a gale is blowing, or if it's flat calm?

Another unknown element to this one, might possibly have been some urgency added to the mix on the part of the CG. This rescue took place in the evening, just before dark. Once the initial distress call was put out, the pace of everything might have been accelerated in an effort to conduct the mission before nightime, whereas the crew might have had a bit more time to try to sort things out had the timing been a bit different. Again, we just don't know, but I think we saw a similar situation with the abandonment of RAINMAKER, where once the call was made and things were put into motion by the CG, everything started to happen very quickly in the effort to get the crew off before darkness fell, or the boat drifted any further out of range...


----------



## TakeFive

The timeline certainly seems like they chose to make a hasty decision because of oncoming darkness, and might have taken more time to diagnose if there was more daylight.

Is it possible that the water in the bilge could have come from a leak in the potable water system? Enough water to quickly raise the level in the bilge, but once that tank(s) is/are empty, no leaky no more. Seems like the kind of thing that might happen on a brand new boat whose tanks were topped off for the first time.


----------



## JonEisberg

Minnewaska said:


> I wonder if they had a raft? Not having one, would elevate concern over a backup plan, if the primary problem wasn't quickly identified. Bet the water is pretty cold there.


That was one of my first thoughts, as well. It's highly unlikely a boat in a dealer's inventory headed for a boat show would have been equipped with a raft, chances are one would have been rented or borrowed for such a trip... Again, we just don't know...

Also, I'm inclined to believe the conditions might have been a bit more harsh than have been reported... I happen to have driven Highway 1 up the coast numerous times at just this time of year, my regular routine after shooting the Long Beach Grand Prix was to head up to the Bay area for a visit with my brother and his family... I've always loved that drive, but it seemed every time I made it in the spring, by the afternoon when the breeze started cranking, I'd look out on that water and think how miserable it would be trying to bash up the coast in those conditions  Also, you can get considerable variation in local conditions, there's a very noticeable 'cape effect' up around Point Sur, for instance, easily seen out over the water from the elevated vantage points that the Coast Highway provides...

Another skipper was was delivering another boat to Strictly Sail from LA at the same time posted this the other night on CF... For whatever reason, it was later deleted, but it sounded like they were taking a bit of a beating earlier in the trip:



> Was delivering ...... at same time and from same place and heading to same show. MDR to SF. We bailed out to morro bay due to swells and the pounding boat was taking. Forecast was 25-30 kts. Was only blowing 18-20kts when we bailed. We passed within 50 yds of the 55 crew and tried hailing them on radio to "recommend following us to morro bay". Thought to ourselves those guys must be crazy or have big balls....??
> 
> That's all I will say till Beneteau makes official statement/ investigation...


----------



## Minnewaska

8 inches of water above the floorboards or 8 inches of water in the bilge? Very different things on a typical 50 ft boat.


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I'd say it's yet to be established whether that was "a perfectly good boat" at the time they decided to abandon her, 8" of water above the floorboards doesn't sound "perfectly good" to me, but perhaps you know something the rest of us don't... But I would say if indeed this boat was abandoned too 'casually', the better approach would be to be critical of this crew as well, rather than cut more slack to others who might do so in the future...


I only know what you know. From reports it appears that the boat is still floating around out there awaiting the competent hands of Sea Tow.



JonEisberg said:


> Also, you appear to be making the mistaken assumption so often made that the on-scene conditions are necessarily a determining factor in every decision to abandon a vessel... If one truly believes they are sinking, does it really matter whether a gale is blowing, or if it's flat calm?


Weren't you the one that named this thread?


----------



## Don L

Sad that right off the bat this became an excuse to get some production boat trashing in. I mean just check the title to have no doubt of the motivation behind the thread. I would image that to the general haters this is suppose to make them feel knowledgeable etc., but it really just makes them look like small, petty, bitter, sad types who only could be taken serious by some other small, petty, buttier type of person.


----------



## smackdaddy

Don0190 said:


> buttier


Great word.


----------



## Erindipity

Buttier...


smackdaddy said:


> Great word.


Indeed, in this context. Recent Beneteaus are distinctly Steatopygic.

¬Erindipity


----------



## smackdaddy

Is it kind of like an Assommelier?


----------



## Erindipity

smackdaddy said:


> Is it kind of like an Assommelier?


Ah, a Connoisseur...
When it comes to Sterns, I prefer one that is Callipygian, where the Futtocks shape gracefully aft of Beam.

Seriously, given reported Wave Conditions, getting slammed unexpectedly in the Stern with a few tons of water, with that design, could be an explanation.
We don't know yet. Since nobody was hurt, we may never know.

¬Erindipity


----------



## Capt Len

Is it possible that someone had the presence of mind to reach into 8 inches of water and shut the thruhulls. If that's 8 over the sole it would be pretty impressive down below and the chopper is overhead and it's now or never. Not many experienced crew has experience in abandon at sea.


----------



## Minnewaska

8" over the sole, in a pitching boat, would make it pretty darn hard to get all my thru hulls. Some would be shoulder deep. I also question how the boat would survive that much water.  As I think about it, 8" in the bilge makes more sense for the boat to survive. Nightfall imminent, no liferaft and unable to determine ingress = punch out.


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> Weren't you the one that named this thread?


I did indeed... Obviously, I was misinformed - by no other than the United States Coast Guard, as a matter of fact, imagine that... 

I suppose it's time we re-define exactly what constitutes "The Limit" in speaking of such incidents? A failure catastrophic enough to inspire abandonment is no longer sufficient, it seems. Perhaps nothing less than a confirmed ping from a SPOT or Delorme InReach from the bottom of the ocean should be the new standard?

After all, we still don't know for certain whether the Alpha 42, or RAINMAKER have actually reached their "Limit", no? Hell, the jury is even still out on CHEEKI RAFIKI I suppose, as the last time anyone saw her, she was still afloat, after all...


----------



## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> Sad that right off the bat this became an excuse to get some production boat trashing in. I mean just check the title to have no doubt of the motivation behind the thread. I would image that to the general haters this is suppose to make them feel knowledgeable etc., but it really just makes them look like small, petty, bitter, sad types who only could be taken serious by some other small, petty, buttier type of person.


LOL!

OK, if it will make you feel any better, and help lighten the crushing weight of that Production Boatowner's Chip you appear to be carrying around, the news that the CG hoisted a couple of sailors off a Colin Archer design that _"floundered"_ off the Virginia coast the other day...



2 German sailors rescued off Va. after sailboat flounders - DC News FOX 5 DC WTTG


----------



## svHyLyte

JonEisberg said:


> LOL!
> 
> OK, if it will make you feel any better, and help lighten the crushing weight of that Production Boatowner's Chip you appear to be carrying around, the news that the CG hoisted a couple of sailors off a Colin Archer design that _"floundered"_ off the Virginia coast the other day...


Ah..."Foundered"? Not quite...

To quote from the article you linked:



> CHINCOTEAGUE, Va. (AP) - Two German sailors have been rescued after their sailboat lost its mast and was running low on fuel about 90 miles off Chincoteague.
> 
> The Coast Guard says the two were recovered from a life raft Tuesday morning. They were identified as 51-year-old Joerg Fleimming and 56-year-old Stefan Heising.
> 
> A distress call from Fleimming's sailboat Irene went out Monday and the cutter Shearwater arrived at Irene's location early Tuesday.
> 
> Coast Guard crews were unable to pass a towline to the sailboat, so both sailors boarded a life raft. They were taken to shore where they we met by customs officials and border patrol agents.
> 
> The two were flying back to Germany.
> 
> The Coast Guard says the Irene was abandoned.


----------



## JonEisberg

svHyLyte said:


> Ah..."Foundered"? Not quite...
> 
> To quote from the article you linked:


I was merely making a reference to the article's headline


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> I did indeed... Obviously, I was misinformed - by no other than the United States Coast Guard, as a matter of fact, imagine that...
> 
> I suppose it's time we re-define exactly what constitutes "The Limit" in speaking of such incidents? A failure catastrophic enough to inspire abandonment is no longer sufficient, it seems. Perhaps nothing less than a confirmed ping from a SPOT or Delorme InReach from the bottom of the ocean should be the new standard?
> 
> After all, we still don't know for certain whether the Alpha 42, or RAINMAKER have actually reached their "Limit", no? Hell, the jury is even still out on CHEEKI RAFIKI I suppose, as the last time anyone saw her, she was still afloat, after all...


You weren't misinformed. You just jumped the gun to try to make a point...that failed, of course.

In you redefining of limits, I think you're making it harder than it is. The Limits is when a boat is no longer able to keep its crew from dying. Now, as your list above shows, there's a pretty wide range in there regarding when people decide that point has been reached and hit the button. But, also as you point out, this people factor is a completely different equation that has far less to do with the boat.

Regarding _Cheeki Rafiki_ - there is no doubt that boat blew past the limits...very, very suddenly. But, thus far we've seen maybe 2-3 of these incidents with this model of Bene - out of hundreds out there? So I'm not quite ready to pronounce this particular brand of production boat as not fit for off-shore cruising.


----------



## Don L

As opposed to the to take any chance to trash post a production boat? We all know your agenda.


----------



## MedSailor

8 inches of water? Clearly they sent boys to do a wooden boat owner's job. Sheesh! My ol' leaky lifeboat would ship 8 inches of water before breakfast!

As an aside, I've alwsys wondered if you could find your leak in a flooded boat by tossing a dye marker overboard and looking to see which part of the bilge turns green first....


----------



## Capt Len

8 inches over the sole and the production boats interior woodwork is likely surging back and forth in the froth. Still an occasion to separate the men from the boys


----------



## jzk

So she was sighted by a fishing boat. I wonder why they didn't grab it. Could their week's catch be more then a Bene 55?


----------



## jerryrlitton

jzk said:


> So she was sighted by a fishing boat. I wonder why they didn't grab it. Could their week's catch be more then a Bene 55?


Bene 55 or a weeks catch? Bene 55 or a weeks catch? Hmmm production boat or a weeks catch? I think I will go with the weeks catch, Bob.


----------



## Minnewaska

Capt Len said:


> 8 inches over the sole and the production boats interior woodwork is likely surging back and forth in the froth. Still an occasion to separate the men from the boys


I've read 8" in the bilge. Big difference. But it is one of the facts that is unclear about this event.

You are right, however, not just about production boats, but most boats. The cabins, particularly floor hatches, are not adequately secure to be offshore. Easy fix. However, expensive to do it correctly. Screwing them all down, will make it very time consuming to address an emergency. The quick twist lock connectors are pricey.


----------



## jzk

Salvaging her could have been worth a quick hundred grand. I would take that bet every time.



jerryrlitton said:


> Bene 55 or a weeks catch? Bene 55 or a weeks catch? Hmmm production boat or a weeks catch? I think I will go with the weeks catch, Bob.


----------



## jerryrlitton

Minnewaska said:


> I've read 8" in the bilge.The quick twist lock connectors are pricey.


Just kidding about the production boat bit however ref the twist lock connectors, how much is too much?


----------



## Minnewaska

jerryrlitton said:


> Just kidding about the production boat bit however ref the twist lock connectors, how much is too much?


The PYIinc (makers of the MaxProp) have good floor anchors that run about $11 each. For most boards, you'll require at least one on each end, unless one end has a tab that holds it down. I've had a box of them to install for the past 5 years. That Bermuda trips keeps pushing out. 

http://www.pyiinc.com/index.php?section=panel_anchor&action=main


----------



## JonEisberg

jzk said:


> So she was sighted by a fishing boat. I wonder why they didn't grab it. Could their week's catch be more then a Bene 55?


I realize LATITUDE 38 has never been wrong about anything, but perhaps there's a first time?



> Not salvageable according to the CG, and the fishing boat that saw it the next day. Just a tiny bit of bow poking up above the water.
> 
> Bene 55 goes down off of Monterey - Page 4 - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums


----------



## aeventyr60

Minnewaska said:


> The PYIinc (makers of the MaxProp) have good floor anchors that run about $11 each. For most boards, you'll require at least one on each end, unless one end has a tab that holds it down. I've had a box of them to install for the past 5 years. That Bermuda trips keeps pushing out.
> 
> -- PYI Inc. Max-Prop PSS Shaft Seal Seaview Radar Mounts R&D --


11 bucks each for something that could save your boat from imminent peril? Minne, very disapointed here, just a disgrace, really. Not fitting a spare part getting in the way of precious libations? :laugher


----------



## Don L

Roll of duct tape for the sole board for the few times they really need to be secured and can be installed in minutes - $8.99


----------



## Minnewaska

aeventyr60 said:


> ......Not fitting a spare part getting in the way of precious libations? :laugher


Sometimes. Right now my time is spent fixing stuff that I broke, while trying to fix stuff I knew was broken.


----------



## Minnewaska

Don0190 said:


> Roll of duct tape for the sole board for the few times they really need to be secured and can be installed in minutes - $8.99


Duct tape residue on the teak and holly? Ain't no way.

Besides, I really doubt it would be as effective as a mechanical fastener. You're not just trying to keep the board in place, you're trying to secure it well enough that a dislodged projectile from the bilge can't knock it loose.


----------



## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> Roll of duct tape for the sole board for the few times they really need to be secured and can be installed in minutes - $8.99


Yeah, almost impossible to conceive of a circumstance where duct tape wouldn't be perfectly adequate for such a task...

Well, unless perhaps the cabin sole had already become wet by the time one decided it might be one of those "few times" it would be good to have the floorboards secured... Yeah, I know, like something like _THAT_ might ever actually happen, right?

If you intend to go that route, I'd suggest you dip a bit deeper into that $3K/month cruising kitty, and splurge for the biggest, fattest roll of Gorilla Tape you can find...


----------



## Don L

Minnewaska said:


> Duct tape residue on the teak and holly? Ain't no way.
> 
> Besides, I really doubt it would be as effective as a mechanical fastener. You're not just trying to keep the board in place, you're trying to secure it well enough that a dislodged projectile from the bilge can't knock it loose.


I don't store projectiles in my bilge. In fact the only thing I store in my bilge is a bilge and shower sump pump. So all I'm concerned about is the ONE sole board that has some looseness to to start with. I'm much more concerned about all the other stuff in the cabin that is only to come loose.

When I was on submarine duty everything was supposedly secured so it wouldn't come loose. Every once in a while we would do high speed maneuvers that we called "angles and dangles". The safest place to be during this was in your bunk holding on when things starting flying. Trust me when I say that things on your boat are not secured and the least of your problems are going to be the sole boards.


----------



## Don L

JonEisberg said:


> If you intend to go that route, I'd suggest you dip a bit deeper into that $3K/month cruising kitty, and splurge for the biggest, fattest roll of Gorilla Tape you can find...


Your envy is showing. Yes those of us on a $3k budget can afford the good tape.


----------



## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> Your envy is showing. Yes those of us on a $3k budget can afford the good tape.


LOL! Nah, don't flatter yourself... I can afford the PYI floor anchors, as a matter of fact 

If I'm gonna envy other sailors, it's gonna be people like Thies Matzen and Kicki Ericksen on WANDERER, who have actually been out there living a life of true adventure, instead of those who have done little thus far beyond talking about cruising on internet sailing forums...


----------



## Minnewaska

Don0190 said:


> I don't store projectiles in my bilge. In fact the only thing I store in my bilge is a bilge and shower sump pump.


Those can certainly become projectiles, as well as batteries, tanks, anything that lives below deck.

As for stuff above the sole, it certain can be reasonably secured. Most just don't do it.


----------



## smackdaddy

Well - this vaunted bluewater boat DEFINITELY found its limit - and is now on the bottom:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruis...6-production-boats-limits-19.html#post2719745

Be careful what you advocate/criticize.


----------



## Capt Len

A dangerous projectile in these emergencys is the water itself. Lake water is only 62 lbs a cubic ft so you can just watch it slowly rise past the duct taped sole panels. Real ocean is 64 lbs and its inertia will shift any woodwork and pound the water tight bulkheads into submission..The rampaging bits then take out the thruhulls and before you know it you've got a problem.


----------



## smackdaddy

My floorboards are screwed down. I'm also adding locks to the lids below my settee seats and my aft cabin bed under which the batteries are located. I won't be using duct-tape. No freakin' way.


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> Well - this vaunted bluewater boat DEFINITELY found its limit - and is now on the bottom:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruis...6-production-boats-limits-19.html#post2719745
> 
> Be careful what you advocate/criticize.


Not to mention, be careful what you call _"a vaunted bluewater boat"..._


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> Not to mention, be careful what you call _"a vaunted bluewater boat"..._


S&S has a pretty good bluwa rep - they even made a few lists. So spin it however you need to.

All I'm saying is that they would have been much better off in a Hunter.


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> S&S has a pretty good bluwa rep - they even made a few lists. So spin it however you need to.


No spin, simply pointing out it's a bit difficult to evaluate the bluewater pedigree or capability of any boat, when one doesn't have a clue as to who actually built the thing, or what connection the designer may - or may not have - had with it...



smackdaddy said:


> All I'm saying is that they would have been much better off in a Hunter.


You could be right, guess we'll never know...

Or, they might have merely lost their rudder, as Mike Harker did on the same passage on his Hunter 466...


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> No spin, simply pointing out it's a bit difficult to evaluate the bluewater pedigree or capability of any boat, when one doesn't have a clue as to who actually built the thing, or what connection the designer may - or may not have - had with it...
> 
> You could be right, guess we'll never know...
> 
> Or, they might have merely lost their rudder, as Mike Harker did on the same passage on his Hunter 466...


Ah, but Mike finished his passage.

Isn't sailing to a destination over the surface of bluewater better than sinking into it? Or do I have the whole definition of "bluewater boat" wrong?


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> Or do I have the whole definition of "bluewater boat" wrong?


Well, it's always seemed that way, to me...





smackdaddy said:


> My floorboards are screwed down. I'm also adding locks to the lids below my settee seats and my aft cabin bed under which the batteries are located. I won't be using duct-tape. No freakin' way.


Perhaps Beneteau should consider going the duct tape route... Maybe they could renew their deal with Tommy Bahama, and have a signature pattern created exclusively for them?

You might want to reconsider that whole "screwed down" approach, and re-visit Tip #77 in Bill Seifert's book...



> Posted 17 April 2015 - 10:06 PM
> 
> No one knows the precise cause. There was a fairly decent sea running and the were banging uphill. Large "bang" with H2O ingress forward that the stock pumps couldn't keep pace with. *Water was knee deep, and the boards under the v-berth were screwed down, preventing examination and damage control. (Theres a lesson).* The coasties showed up at near bingo fuel after pulling 4 other mariners out of harms way. It was now or never...they couldn't get back until morning. If you're from around here, you know the captain.
> 
> Bene 55 goes down off of Monterey - Page 4 - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums


Hmmm, _a "Large "bang" with H2O ingress forward..."_ Gotta love some of the sounds of sailing those Flat-bottomed Flyers to weather, eh?


----------



## smackdaddy

Dude, have you really never heard of one of these?










Sure, in 8" of water it might not be completely effective - but one would think you'd be using it before that point.

In any case, "the boards _under_ the v-berth"?










It appears the v-berth has some substantial framing that ties everything into a stepped up platform. Are there really no inspection panels anywhere around that bed?

The boards under my v-berth have a 100 gallon water tank on top of them - inside the framing for the berth. So screws don't really seem to matter. Does Seifert have deep thoughts on that issue?


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> In any case, "the boards _under_ the v-berth"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears the v-berth has some substantial framing that ties everything into a stepped up platform. Are there really no inspection panels anywhere around that bed?


I have no idea, I've never been aboard that boat, or given it any sort of look-thru... Some sort of failure around the bow thruster tube certainly sounds plausible, however... Another argument in favor of simplicity, and the potential risks of cutting massive holes in the hull in the name of 'convenience', or to compensate for an operator's lack of boat handling skill, in some cases... 



smackdaddy said:


> The boards under my v-berth have a 100 gallon water tank on top of them - inside the framing for the berth. So screws don't really seem to matter. Does Seifert have deep thoughts on that issue?


Tankage can certainly be problematic, but I presume you don't have anything critical located beneath it? If I ever developed a problem in the area beneath my fuel tank, for instance, there is no way I'd be able to attack it directly at sea. My water and holding tank are built integral to the hull at the turn of the bilge and in the forefoot, which I like as they lend a small measure of additional structure/bracing in those areas, and might serve as a sort of 'double bottom' in the event of a hard grounding and a potential hull breach in those areas...

One thing I'm rather obsessive about, is regularly checking the bilges when underway. The ability to check the deepest sump with ease is an absolutely critical feature on any boat, IMHO. Valiants are good in this regard, most feature a small hatch right at the galley that makes a quick look very easy, I like to stick a piece of brightly colored tape on it to serve as a reminder, and taking a peek should definitely be part of the hourly routine underway, in my view... Surprisingly, one of the worst boats I'd ever run in this regard, turned out to be a Hallberg-Rassy. The owner had some additional storage space built in around the companionway ladder, and to simply open the hatch over the sump required a considerable degree of dismantling before the ladder could be lifted. Incredibly piss-poor arrangement, very surprising to see on such a boat...

A teak grate over the sump is the ideal solution, with a light mounted beneath the floors that can be switched on to illuminate the sump would be very slick...

Quick and easy access to the bilges is critical, however... That Hunter 41 I ran was actually pretty decent in that regard, although I think the floorboards might have needed additional security for offshore, if memory serves... But the thru-hulls, keel bolts, etc could all be pretty well accessed, to the best of my recollection...


----------



## Minnewaska

IMO, no floor board or panel that accesses a thru hull or the bilge pump or other critical leak hazard should ever be screwed down. As referenced above, no power driver is going to work underwater and it could take too long to get to it. Quick connects are the way to go.

However, also as mentioned above, you can't make every inch of the hull accessible. Built in cabinetry, etc, will block much of the hull. A rechargeable sawz-all is probably the way to go for those emergencies.


----------



## smurphny

Minnewaska said:


> IMO, no floor board or panel that accesses a thru hull or the bilge pump or other critical leak hazard should ever be screwed down. As referenced above, no power driver is going to work underwater and it could take too long to get to it. Quick connects are the way to go.
> 
> However, also as mentioned above, you can't make every inch of the hull accessible. Built in cabinetry, etc, will block much of the hull. A rechargeable sawz-all is probably the way to go for those emergencies.


A compact rechargeable sawzall comes in handy for all sorts of things. Milwaukee makes a great little unit. I bought one a couple of years ago to cut off the frozen nuts on my prop flange which was in a gawdawful place to access. It is a handy item.


----------



## MedSailor

My dad had a Coranado 25 sink out from under him. One big factor in the sinking was that the leaking through hull was behind cabinetry. It WAS accessible, until the water swelled the wood, and then it wasn't. I keep a hatchet (doubles as a hammer) and crow bar aboard for just such emergencies. I wouldn't think a cordless sawzall would do any better than the drill when the water was pouring in. 

MedSailor


----------

