# Please Help Me Choose a Boat!



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello all,

This is my first post (I joined last night, but have been reading for a while). 

I have been researching for quite a while and just when I thought I had it narrowed down to two (thanks to all of your comments to others!) a third popped in last night. So, here we go...

The two in top contention (and I will be living aborad, but sailing long distance) are the new:

Tartan 3700
Beneteau 423

Here's what I've pretty much gotten from all of you per your comments to others. The Bene will fall apart if I use it as a long-distance cruiser and not as an "RV on water".

The Beneteau:

-I prefer the interior.
-I prefer the non-V-berth stateroom
-2 heads and showers! (that's big for me for long-distance with guests).
-I can safely assume the company will be around for a while so parts, etc. won't be an issue.

The Tartan:

-Greatly prefer the exterior. Gorgeous.
-I have heard it is far more sturdy for actual use.
-Only one head.
-V-berth.
-From the photos, it looks like one would smack their head if they sat up in bed. 
-Non-slip, sand colored non-slip panels on deck. Teak may look nicer, but this is close and safer. However, will the panels be replaceable should Tartan go under?

Okay, all of that said...

Then I find the X-Yachts X-37. Great exterior, somewhere between the Bene and the Tartan. 2 heads w/showers and no v-berth. So, it seems perfect, but not enough reviews or comments to know how well it will hold up, what flaws it has, etc.

No sugar coating needed, all comments welcome. Thank you very much. I look forward to meeting all of you.

-James


----------



## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

It seems to me the only thing these boats have in common it they cost about the same. Is that your primary criteria?


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Please help me choose a boat!*

Yes, that is the price rance I am looking for. It's their lack of similarities that makes it difficult.

From what I've gathered, and I'm the first to admit my knowledge is limited, the Bene is made for light cruising, possible living and entertaining.

The Tartan is a cruiser which can race as well.

The X-37 seems the most geared towards racing of the three., but that's my perception from my research.

If I could find the external beauty of the Tartan (I prefer the flat back, not the step down platform of the Beneteau) with the internal beauty of the Bene, incl. the 2 heads and the more spacious staterooms (non-V-berth), I'd buy it today.

The X-37 seems to be a good mid-point between the two, but I haven't found enough info to see if they are well-built, what issues they have,...


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

What do you mean by sailing long distance? Are you going to be making ocean passages, going from LA to Hawaii? Are you going to be doing the ICW? Are you going to sailing on the Great Lakes? Are you going to be doing laps of a small land-locked lake... All of these are ways to sail long distances, although the last is a bit ridiculous. 

Where are you going to be sailing/living aboard?

What are your skills as a sailor? 

Are you going to be singlehanding? 

What is your budget for the boat? 

What is your budget for maintenance? 

Also, how tall are you? If you're exceptionally tall or short, that can make a difference in what boat to get. 

Will you be doing your own maintenance, in which case engine access is more necessary, or be having a marina do it all?

BTW, having two heads, while convenient, can lead to a lot more maintenance/repair problems more often than not. Unless your planning on sailing with several crew on board for very long passages, a single head may be the wiser choice.


----------



## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

I have nothing bad to say about the Tartan 3700, it is a fine boat. The Beneteau is clearly built cheaper, to provide a larger boat. If I were going to be caught out in a storm and I had to choose I would rather be in the Tartan, no question. But I agree with sailingdog, you haven't really told us how you intend to use the boat. There are others to look at like Hanse, Jeanneau, Elan, Delphia, Dufour that might fit your needs. Have you considered a cat?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also, is this going to be your first boat?? If so, a boat that large might cause you problems in getting insurancel, especially if you are going to be living aboard.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Please help me choose a boat!*

Interesting point about the dual head maintanence. Hmm...

Live-aboard, out of Ventura, CA (Pacific). Would like to circumnavigate at some point, though not in the near future. Hawaii is likely. Up the coast Washington, down to Mexico are likely. Through Panana east. West to Australia would be greatas well.

Limited sailing experience as of now -- still getting certified, but plan to do as many hours as possible. I want to sail, not sit around in the marina.

Someone just recommended the Tayana 37 as well. Any thoughts?

I'm 6'1".

Thank you all for your responses.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Please help -- cont.*

Singlehandedly, primarily.

Yes, first boat. Didn't realize the insurance issue.

What is a good maintanance budget on a new boat?

I'm figuring around $270,000 for the boat with $50k down. $220,000 loan, I'm ballparking 9% for 20 years in $2,000/mo. Plus slip fees, live-aboard fees, electric, etc. Should be $3,000 before maintanence. About right?


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

As has been noted these are three very different boats. 

The Tartan 370's were available using some of the absolutely most modern materials that are available. While the epoxy hull is about as good as it gets in terms of durability, the carbon fiber mast is a bit of mixed bag; great for sailing ability and stability, but potentially at risk for wild electrolysis problems and lightning problems that would be far in excess of those expected with alumuminum spars. I am not a big fan of the Tartan hull form and really don't like its rig and deck layout for ease of handling. 

I really love the X37. I think that the layout is my ideal for single-handing, or a couple cruising, or cruising with two couples. The hull and keel design would be an excellent choice offshore, or sailing in changeable conditions, offering good motion comfort and an easily driven hullform. The sail plan on the X boat would be the easiest of the three to handle and I have almost always been impressed with the quality of their deck hardware and its placement. I really think that X-Yachts does a great job with their engineering, especially since they tend to engineer around conventional materials. That said, I have never felt completely comfortable with the galvanized steel structure that they use for their keel connections. I have talked to quite a few long term owners who swear that it is no problem and it makes a very sturdy boat so I am starting to come around on that point. The X37 is part of their cruising series rather than their racing series and is no more racing oriented than the Tartan although I think it would be an easier boat to race in terms of really great hardware layout. I'd personally would probably do the two cabin/ single head version but if you must have two heads they make the X37 with two heads. 

A couple other boats in this price range that you might want to consider:

Hanse 371/370. I have sailed on one of these and find them to be really nice boats all around. Nicely built and well thought through.

Beneteau 40.7: I have raced on one of these for the past 5 years. They seem to be very well constructed (better than the number series boats in a lot of ways) and sail better than any of the other boats on this list with the possible exception of the X-yacht. On the other hand they have less of a cruising interior than the others. 

Elan 37: (Elan Yachts) This is a company that I was not familiar with until a couple years ago. Since then I have been board a number of their different models and have been quite impressed. The 37 looks like a really neat boat all around. 

Good luck,
Jeff


----------



## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*less is more ?*



sailingdog said:


> ...BTW, having two heads, while convenient, can lead to a lot more maintenance/repair problems more often than not. Unless your planning on sailing with several crew on board for very long passages, a single head may be the wiser choice.


SailingDog,

With all due respect to you, I've heard this argument before, but I don't understand it. It suggests that heads are unreliable, in which case it would be preferable to me to have a spare than to have to immediately repair the broken system. "Immediately" is the operative word when you lose the use of the only head system.

In the worst case the two head systems would be twice as much maintenance and repair, but I doubt that would be the case given the same usage split between the two systems instead of one. Does having more than one head system somehow cause both heads to fail even more frequently ? I suppose if the second system is hardly ever used there could be issues from seals drying out but that is very is to prevent by cycling the idle system periodically. Our one head boat sits idle the whole winter without ill effects on the single head each spring.

The bottom line is I'm skeptical of the argument. What am I missing ?


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Hey JEdwards...forget the cheap plastic boats for your purposes. There's lots more suitable boats for cruising out there and one's you'll fit in too! 
Like this one<<TAYANA 42CC>>...once you look at something like this which is IN your budget area...you won't need anyone to explain what an offshore boat is!


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Please help me choose a boat*

Ha! Didn't consider the failing one head at sea. Another interesting point.

Someone threw Valiant into the mix. Thoughts?

Per the cat question, I have looked into them, but I prefer the monohull. I completely understand their appeal, but I just don't get excited when I look at them. They have a lot to offer; just for whatever reason I'm more drawn to the monos.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Cap'Nero...you're not missing anything! Two heads are WAY better than one assuming they both get used.
Especially when you have to GO and one is broken! Especially when you have company aboard. Especialy when you need parts for one that aren't handy locally or in the standard rebuild kit. Especially when the seas are rough and one head gives a more comfortable ride! <grin>


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Please help, thus far...*

2 votes for Tayana, one liked Tartan and one for Valiant.

I'm no less confused. 

That said, this being my first day, you are all being very cool. I appreciate it.


----------



## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*hot spares*



camaraderie said:


> Cap'Nero...you're not missing anything! Two heads are WAY better than one assuming they both get used.
> Especially when you have to GO and one is broken! Especially when you have company aboard. Especialy when you need parts for one that aren't handy locally or in the standard rebuild kit. Especially when the seas are rough and one head gives a more comfortable ride! <grin>


Actually I recently decided to add a spare head pump assembly to our cruising spares. For about $100 I can pick up another head pump and then I know I can do a quick pump swap instead of having to repair one underway.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

You asked for blunt. A lot of people disagree with me, but here goes:

1) Most of the boats sold for going around the world never get much further than the first buoy. Are you REALLY going to circumnavigate? Better go get in a really crappy storm offshore where you think you are going to die before you get serious about talking about going around the world where there is no turning around, no VHF, no coast guard to one to come to the rescue... just you and your life raft, and HUGE seas. Truth is, any boat can circumnavigate. Wait till you see the crap people sail on out there!! Some are just built heavier, with more storage (fuel, sail, water, etc), and are stiffer. The trade off is space and comfort down below... and they are also typically more expnsive to build. As Americans, we tend to overcompensate for our sailing ability (or lack of) with lots of instruments, and systems, and boats that are "made to go around the world". That being said, many of those boats really are built better. Valiant is a great one. I like the old Bristols. Pacific Seacraft makes a reasonable one too. There are many others. But they are SMALL down below. SMALL!!!! You will spend 95% of your time on the hook and 5% of your time on the go. Buy a boat for the 95% versus the 5%... unless you are heading off across the Pacific right now.

2) It takes a very skilled sailor to siglehand... especially if you are thinking about heading across the big pond. If you are willing to part with that kind of money, buy a smaller boat (Catalina, Beneteau, Jeaunea), and after you have done all the N AMerican and S AMerican and Bahamas and Carrib, etc sailing you can, pay a moving service like DockWise to ship your boat across to Aulstralia. You will save the heartache of the seas (and live to tell about it), and you have a great boat that is comfortable down below to see the sights. There are aspect to being offshore that are deeply rewarding on a spiritual level... but that is about it. It is not "fun"... at least to me... but I have a family I have to watch out for and don't care for staring at 20 foot seas breaking five feet behind me. I have done it because I had to do it. I don't "hate it"... but it is more of a means to an end.

3) You don't need an X, or a Swan, or similair. Awesome boat, but it is a racer. You are not racing, and unless you are a pretty good sailor, you probably would not tell the difference anyway for a while.

4) In the areas you have discussed sailing, I would push you toward a Catalina. Solid boat. Inexpensive. Good coastal cruiser with occasional punch offshore. They are made in California and Florida so parts are easily accessible. They hold their value very well. And NO, I am not a Catalina dealer, but as you can tell, they have a very faithful following and are widely regarded in the sailing community as a well built production boat. Beneteau and Jeaneau are good production boats too, but think about parts accessibility, storage, and system access. 

5) Better see what you can get approved for. General rule of thumb: 20% down, minimum. More if you have any shady credit. You need about 12-24 months living expenses with the boat in the bank after that. You total outgo (all your debt, plus boat payment, plus insurance, plus slip) cannot exceed 37%... 40ish with some brokers. If you have anything of a shady past with credit, better look at this being a lot stricter. Call 1st commercial credit in Florida. They are a yacht mortgage broker. I have had good experiences with them. Essex is good too. If you cannot find the numbers, PM me and I will help. I know them both very well.

Hope this helps. Don't get scared, in the end it is all worth it... a million times over. I cannot imagine a life without a boat.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

captnnero-

It depends on the exact layout of the boat...but on many boats, one of the heads will have a much longer run to the holding tank, and the hose that makes that longer run is much more susceptible to permeation, leaks, and other problems. Also, if the two heads are plumbed wrong, a problem in one can often take out both heads, by constricting or blocking the line to the holding tank. 

Yes, having two heads on-board can give you the possibility of a backup, when one fails—but the system has to be properly designed to allow that...and in many production boats it is not. Also, having the second head might lead you to the false sense of security that you've got a backup, which may or may not be true. 

It also depends on what actual marine head unit is installed. Some of the less expensive units are far less reliable than more expensive units. 




A few other things for the OP to consider. 

Average annual maintenance for a boat is usually about 10% of the price, but is generally a bit lower during the first three to five years of use. 

Commissioning a boat, especially for liveaboard use, will generally cost an additional $10,000-25,000. This includes purchasing things for the boat that are required by law, but not provided by the boat manufacturer, like PFDs, fire extinguishers, fenders, etc. It also includes modifications, upgrades and customization to the boat to make it work for your particular needs. I've never seen a boat that didn't have something that needed to be added, modified or changed when a new owner took it over, regardless of whether it was new or used. This money also covers things like adding cockpit cushions, biminis, dodgers, additional ventilation, dishes, silverware, etc.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

captnnero said:


> Actually I recently decided to add a spare head pump assembly to our cruising spares. For about $100 I can pick up another head pump and then I know I can do a quick pump swap instead of having to repair one underway.


Not a bad idea...now get enough hose and a Y-valve assembly to replace those and you're all set unless you crack the bowl!  
BTW...if you ever can't pump the handle...it means the line is clogged AND pressurized! Ask me how I know!!!


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Please help - cont.*

Cruisingdad,

Thanks for the bluntness.

That's another vote for Valiant. So, Valiant and Tayana seem to be running close for my purposes, and I still do like the Tartan.

My credit right now is... we won't even go there, but I make very good money now (that wasn't always the case, thus the credit), so I'll need more in reserves. Thanks for the heads-up.

I am single with no kids, so it's just me. Very hard for most people to grasp, especially those with a family, but it's the risk of not making it that makes me want to. Not to say I want to sink, but it wouldn't stop me from going. I'm not in this for the sight-seeing -- I'm in it because I love the sea (more than the shore), the solitude, and for the challenge. I'm not about cruising the shore with a nice bottle of Pinot and some fine cheeses. That's not to put those people down.  I completely understand the appeal of that and it's beautiful on some days. If anyone's inviting, I prefer stilton. For me, I'd rather get myself in a bit of trouble, but I'd like my boat to preferably stay in one piece in the process.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

*Heads*

Well, I am going to totally part company with my fellows again: Why on earth would you want two heads?

I have 2 heads now, but that is only because I have 2 kids and do not like little mermaid toothpaste. Single head boats have heads that are typically more comfortable that 2 head boats and have more room in all of the other areas, salon included.

Also, a word of warning: Buy the smallest boat you can comfortably sail not the largest boat you can afford. Smaller is better, especially for a single.

PS Tayana is a good boat too.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*2 heads*

This does bring up the old adage that 2 heads are better than one. 

Well, only for the privacy issue, really, for when my girlfriend and I have a guest couple staying on for a few nights. Is this usually an issue?


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

No. We lived aboard: me, wife, 1 child, and 2 dogs and weathered all kinds of familly and even rode out a hurricane on it - which prevents the use of ANY other facilities. 

I would take one nice head over two mediocre heads any day... especially just being you. Look for yourself at the space lost on the second head. most of the cruisers I know that have a second just throw their junk in there. 

If you are concerened about emergencies, carry a full back-up pump (I always did), and for about 20 bucks you can have a really nice bucket with toilet seat that can double for a basin to wash your boat!!! Remember, this is emergency. 

Heads do breakm especially electric. However, it is not that "often". I lost mine because of a matchbox car in the macerator... a sound that makes a child giggle and a father gasp!!!! As far as your guests go, just tell them not to put anything in the head they have not eaten first... which includes matchbox cars.

One head. My opinion.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

By the way, I did not mean to come off too strong in the beginning. If you read back to things I have written, I pretty much like to joke. 

Bottom line is there really aren't bad boats, just different boats. Find the one that is the most comfortable for you and it is the Right boat.

Fair winds...

Brian


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd avoid the early Tayanas...as they had serious quality control issues IMHO. 

I'd also agree that too many people get too much boat, and end up regretting it, rather than too little boat. If you don't have a dedicated crew, then getting a boat that large may make it very difficult for you to get much sailing in at all. Also, most of your costs are higher with a larger boat—from dockage, marina fees, hauling, maintenance, cost of equipment, etc. 

I'd also agree with Cruisingdad on the single good head being better than two mediocre heads... and that the loss of space due to two heads is definitely an issue on a smaller boat, especially the smaller size boat I'd be recommending. 

If you were to ask me, I'd say go for a boat about 32-35' rather than a 37' boat. They're far easier to single hand, and will cost far less and be less costly to own and maintain. There are plenty of boats, in that range that are fairly good for living aboard, and also make excellent bluewater passagemakers.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SD & Camarderie,

Didn't Taiwanese boats have problems with a lot of the SS? A lot of those have Iron fuel tanks too that if not propersly maintained over the years will develop leaks. Camarderie... thoughts? I have seen a few Tayanas where the SS looks like it came off the bottom of the ocean. US mfg boats typically have a higher grade of SS, right????

Need some "Taiwan" owners thoughts...


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The early Chinese-built boats had problems in many areas. Some were primarily chopper gun fiberglass mat, rather than cloth or roving. Others had problems with stainless steel quality. Some had fuel tank issues. Some had problems with their deck lamination and coring. Many also had problems with teak decking and leaks into the deck core.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*35'*

Okay, per your suggestion about less than more, that would lead me to a Tartan 3500, most likely.

Would you all circumnavigate in a 35'?


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*We too are looking for a boat*

Very interesting thread.

Have a Westsail 32 for 30 years+, use it a lot. Only 1 head, had to replace it once. Its a bit like provisioning, other people eat (and buy heads) as well, why take along so much in food and spares.

We are just retiring and looking at buying another boat on the southern east or west coast. Cruisingdad, I love your blunt remarks. We planned 30 years ago to go offshore and bought our Wetsnail, we love her to death. Now that we are thinking of going offshore for a long period, up pops Dockwise and similar shippers. This will allow us to buy our dream cruiser and not have to equip her for offshore or watch the 20 foot cresting waves. When we want to move on, if we like her we ship her, if we don't we sell here and buy elswhere.

Now all we have to do is find the right boat, this opens up all sorts of manufacturers (and brokers you can trust!)

I didn't think chosing a boat would be so hard.

Good sailing everyone.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

RogRoderg2,

Buying a boat is not hard... deciding is the hard part. Here is how you do it, since you are married:

Go out and research thousands of vessels and do all of your homework. Plan and extrapolate all kinds of data. A chart with highly numerical and mathimatical computations is really the best. This process will takes countless hours of research and agony and talking to guys like me and Sailingdog, camaraderie, and Surfesq, and the brokers and the like.

After that is all over, present the data to your wife and let her go pick out the boat she was going to buy in the first place. Marraige saved and you get a new boat. Consider all that other research a good lesson in who is really the boss, Captain......


----------



## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

Lets talk West coast specific. 2000 miles of a lee shore. You will want deep draft. I also think a smaller boat will make more sense. First time boat buyers usually want a boat that is too big. I know people that live aboard 30 footers in comfort. Smaller boats have smaller sails, are easier to maneuver and have lower maintenance costs. Good luck with finding that live aboard slip BTW. Going North along the CA coast generally means pounding into 10 foot seas or more. So CA is usually light winds, so a lighter boat with deep fin and large sail plan will mean you can sail while the heavy full keelers are motoring. Try to avoid overly beamy boats. Avoid exterior teak as much as possible. There will be arguments about this, but if you want to go sailing and not work on the boat keep it as simple as possible. 

Heads? Don't really care. You can always use the extra as a wet locker. But maintenance will be higher.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cruisingdad- You're a very wise man... 

JEdwards-

Circumnavigating has been done in boats as small as a Flicka, which has a LOA of 24', a LOD of 20', and a LWL of 18' 2". It really depends on the boat. Some 35' boats I wouldn't take out past the sight of land, and others are perfectly safe to go out in almost any conditions. The Contessa 32 is one of my favorites, in terms of looks and offshore capabilities. 

A lot of the modern production boats aren't really designed to be exceptionally seaworthy, and are probably not really well suited to going offshore. 

Given your past credit problems, available resources, and relative lack of experience, I'd say going with a more seaworthy, more easily handled, and smaller boat is probably a better bet than going with a larger boat with more amenities and space, that is going to be both more expensive and more difficult to sail short-handed. 

I would also recommend going with a used boat, rather than a new boat. It will be much less expensive, and you won't take the hit on depreciation. I would also go with USCG documentation, rather than state registration, as you are planning on going abroad at some point. USCG documentation provides a few advantages when you are abroad. The boat's documentation is recognized by all foreign governments, as the boat is a flagged vessel of the United States. 

Also, if you get a boat that has a full head and full galley, and have it USCG documented, you may qualify for a marine mortgage, rather than a personal loan, which may have some interest rate advantages. Also, the interest on a boat that has a full head and full galley can often qualify as a residence under IRS law, and you may be able to write the interest off on it as you would on a home mortgage. 

In any case, whether you go used or new, I would recommend getting a survey done. In the case of a used boat, it can point out serious issues with the prospective boat. In the case of a new boat, it can often pick up deficiencies in the manufacturing process. One person I know bought a new boat and the deck was not properly laminated in much of the foredeck. This was picked up by the surveyor, and he was able to get the manufacturer to fix the problem and had them change the warranty to ensure future deck problems in that area were covered.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Live Aboard slip*

Well, I was going to do Channel Islands Harbor Marina, but they are underway on a 2 year remodel and have done away with their live-aboards. Ventura West, however, will still accept them, has a one-year wait, and it's only a couple hundred bucks deposit.

Off topic, I work directly across the street from the Catalina factory and they do tours on Thursday afternoons, so that's on the agenda next week. Should be cool.

Thanks to everyone for their help. I'm heavily leaning towards a 35' Tartan, unless anyone seriously advises otherwise. Any words on the 35' circumnav.?


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

personal opinion only:

I love Catalinas, I own one now.(as well as to other makes. Have owned 3 Catalinas, a 30, 36, and a 27 over the course of some 35 yrs on the water. (started on a hobiecat, and sunfish, looong ago, in a land far,far away) Fine boats, really good, sturdy boats. 

That being said, If I'd have my druthers, and I was where you are, and going to do what you want to do, I'd look at a Valiant. Ok, so I really like them, shoot me. If $$ were no object, an Oyster, Cabo Rico, Pacific Seacraft, or Hinckley would be my choices... But life is about compromise isn't it. One question, and this is NOT THE deciding factor, would you cruise the coast with 25 gallons of fuel on board? thats the standard fuel cap. of the 3500. (and Catalina 36 MkII.) I wouldn't. I'm not even going to mention water tankage. 
Ok, ok, yes, i'm sure that people have done it, squeezing bird poop into a pill bottle and filtering the result with fishoil and coffee grounds into the tank and had a wonderful time. Or strapping Jerrycans to the rails. Or, ripping out much needed storage, and put in more tanks, all can be done. It's just not my cup of tea.


----------



## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

They do not make boats that are good day-sailors, coastal cruisers and also make good circumnavigators. Pick one. Pick a boat for how you intend to use it now. You will have much different opinion when you are ready to circumnavigate. The Tartan 35, Jeanneau 35, Beneteau 36.7 are options. Look at the Hanse 34 that's for sale in So CA. That might be a perfect option.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Cruisingdad/SailingDog...I think you have to be very careful about generalizing. I have a 52 Tayana from the mid 80's and not only does it not have any of the problems you describe but the fit/finash and quality of materials used is second to none IMHO. I would say the same about Passports also built in Taiwan and Taswells. On the other hand, I can name lots of American boats with leaky tanks, substandard minimal fittings, fiberglass you can see through, rudders that fall off when you ground o them because they are longer than the keel and unsupported etc. etc. etc. . The Tayana 37 is a genuine world cruiser as is the Valiant and both designed by Robert Perry (who also designed mine). On the other hand...I haven't heard of major blistering issues on the Tayana that are LEGEND on the Valiant. I think that the purchase of a Tartan 35 for major ocean cruising is a MONUMENTAL error. I stand by my recomendation of a Tayana 42 as an appropriate size and construction boat for his purposes and would also agree with a V40 or 42 that is in good shape. Everything else I can think of except perhaps a Passport40 or an old Hylas44 will be more $$ than he wanted to spend.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

camaraderie-

I never said that the Tayana wasn't a good world cruising design...just that some of the earlier boats from China had some serious quality control issues. 

The Tayana 42 is too large a boat for this particular person IMHO. I don't believe he has the resources or the skills for a boat that size, from what I have read on this thread. 

I'd also agree that a 35' Tartan is not a particularly well suited boat, given what the OP wants to do. 

A 32' Contessa would be a much better choice for a circumnavigation IMHO. However, the Contessa 32 might be a bit small for liveaboard purposes.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Please help*

Okay, well, I guess that answers the Tartan 3500 objection question. There seems to be a strong concensus against. So, Tayana 37? Any major objections? I see they have an active website, but when I Google "Tayana 37", no new boats come up.

I was pretty set on buying a new boat, although I have read the posts about letting someone else discover and fix the initial problems.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Buy a new boat if you can. That way it will come just the way you want it. It's your choice don't be overly swayed by "public" opinion. That being said, I am a huge fan of Island Packets, Hans Christians and Cabo Rico. All are similar in spirit but different in design. I think Island Packets are roomy, well built, comfortable and intelligently designed. Plus, they will take a licking and keep on ticking. Catalinas, Beneteaus and even Tartans are coastal boats.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Again, I would say that a 37' boat might be more than you can get insurance for as a first time boat owner. Several people on this board have mentioned having issues with insurance, as first time boat owners, with boats as small as 32' long. It also might be a bit more difficult to singlehand, given your limited experience.

A good book for you to read would be Henderson's Singlehanded Sailing.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I dont think you will have any problem with insurance.


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Valiants blisters explained, courtesy of http://www.yachtworld.com/offshoreatlantic/offshoreatlantic_2.html

"You can't mention used Valiant 40's without talking about blister problems. According to Stanley Dabney, who not only was one of the founding fathers and Valiant's Vice President and Sales Manager for the (5 years) but has also owned hull #9, Native Sun, for 25 years, there is a lot of misinformation about what caused the blistering. Dabney, who with his wife Sylvia, owns Offshore Atlantic Yachts in Riviera Beach, Florida, explained that the commonheld belief that Uniflite changed fire retardant resin, thus causing blisters, is not quite right. Uniflite had been using fire retardant resin already, but the blisters were a result of a switch in resin suppliers during the oil crunch of the mid '70's. The new resin wasn't up to standard. 
Dabney sells eight to 10 used Valiants every year and most of them 40's. The blister problem can be traced from 1976 through early 81. Almost all boats during this period blistered to some extent, some badly, both above and below the waterline. Early boats, which also used fire retardant resin, have never blistered and newer boats rarely. He solved the problem in 1984 when he switched to isophthalic resin -carefully monitored the catalyzation and included epoxy barrier coats. According to Dabney, there is only one way to properly repair a badly blistered Valiant. You have to peel the boat down to a mere shell and then fiberglass it. It is a big job. Not surprisingly the market price of the Valiant 40 is directly related to the year build. An early 1975 Valiant 40 in good shape will command more money than a 1979 or 1980 boat, even if they had only minor blistering. Indeed, a used Valiant 40 that has had only mild blisters can be a great value."


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

This is a long one but this is not a simple question:
As I read this thread it seems as if everyone, myself included, is answering a different question. At the heart of this, it seems as if JEdwards has a number of different and perhaps mutually exclusive goals, and it seems as if each of us are addressing the one goal that we each see, like the blind men trying to decribe the elephant. 

As I read through this tread, it seems as if JEdwards wants a whole lot out of this first boat. It would appear that he is looking for a boat that is: 

1. A good singlehander,
2. A good boat to learn to sail on and which sails well enough that he will enjoy sailing it,
3. A good live aboard,
4. A boat that is a good coastal cruiser,
5 A boat that is a capable circumnavigator. 

While you may find this in one boat, the likelihood is that you won't. In fact, the reality is this list is almost mutually exclusive. 

A good single-hander:
To explain in more detail, when you think about a boat that is a good single-hander, you want a boat that has the tools to be easy to handle in changeable conditions without leaving the cockpit. Smaller is easier to handle but I suggest in this context size should be measured not by length but by displacement. Traditional cruising texts used to talk about the ideal displacement for a distance cruiser being between 2 1/2 to 5 (or sometimes 6) long tons per person (Roughly 5500 to 11,000 or 13500 lbs per person). With better equipment and with the modern need for more comfort those numbers have crept up some. There is nothing sacred about these numbers. But they do represent a reasonable norm, Once you get much below 5500 lbs, it is difficult to carry enough gear and supplies to make longish passages. Once you get much above 14,000 to 15,000 lbs per person, you begin to get into a situation where some kind of compromise is involved. That compromise is some combination of needing a lot more endurance and strength, or else counting more heavily on mechanical devices (with the all of higher risks and maintenance involved), or else living with a reduced sail plan and the implicit loss of sailing ability or the need for specialized sails. 

As others have suggest the smaller a boat's size, (read displacement) the easier it is to handle. Within reason, the longer the boat (and more significantly it's waterline length) for it's displacement, and the better its motion comfort, seaworthiness, performance and ease of handling. With single-handing in mind, space is not as critical as sailing ability and ease of handling. An easily driven hull form is also important as it lets you get by with less sail area and so requires less work out of the crew. When you talk about single-handing reliability becomes a strong priority, since there is no one there take care of the boat while you repair what went wrong. 

Continued...


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

A good live aboard,

When you talk about a live aboard, the prime criteria is lots of space, a good galley, a workable head, (with a separate shower if you plan to hold down an office job), comfortable seating, lounging, and sleeping, and lots of storage;little else matters. Here the boat is measured in length and width. Beam is a good thing because most live-aboards with a job live in marinas and to one degree or another shorter fatter boats pay less for slips than longer narrower boats. The moderately narrow beam that is ideal if you care about how well a boat sails, how comfortable it feels in a seaway, and how easy it is to handle, becomes a liability if living aboard is your sole priority. 

A good boat to learn to sail on
Now we come to the one of the more mutually exclusive parts of the elephant, namely a boat that is a good platform to learn to sail. Here is where things get quite subjective. This more than some of these other aspects of JEdward's goals are more about his own goals than any kind of nearly universal truth. 

In other words, in reality we each define how important it is to learn to sail well and what we precisely mean by "sailing well". For many, all they need or want to know about sailing is how to get safely in and out of a slip, and how to make a safe passage. They only care about the basic skills that make that possible. Frankly, no matter what any one else may say or think, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. A whole lot of people are out there covering all kinds of distance with that just that kind of rudimentary knowledge. They have no less of a good time and they probably are at little more risk than anyone else out there. 

But for a lot of us, learning to sail well means a whole lot more. It means knowing how to get the most out of a boat; in other words, how to adjust the sails and course for maximum comfort and/or speed. It means knowing how to handle a boat really well in a whole range of conditions, and being able to sail well no matter what nature throws at you. There is nothing inherently more morally superior about pursuing that choice versus developing some less complete set of skills. It is all about personal goals and little else. 

But if you are one of those people who care to fully develop boat handling skills beyond a basic level, then the ideal boat would be a comparatively small (less than 30 foot), light weight, responsive, fin keel/spade rudder sloop or even a small dinghy. I say this because, after teaching a whole lot of people to sail over the years, it is next to impossible to really develop those skills on a heavy displacement cruiser. If you are really alented and have a whole lot of time, it probably can be done. But if you are a normal mortal and don't want to do learn at glacial speed, then perhaps the real answer is to buy a small boat; don't live aboard for a little while. Then sail the daylights out of her, read everything you can lay your hands on, sail on as many different boats (including race boats that are racing) as you can, and in a year or two you will get to a point where you know how to sail reasonably well and you won't come to a place like this to figure out what you should buy because you will know for yourself. 

Continued....


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

A good coastal Cruiser:
A good coastal cruiser is a very different animal than a good offshore boat. Coastal cruisers generally benefit from better performance than offshore boats and do not have as stringent a requirement for a robust structure as and offshore boat. As a result coastal cruisers greatly benefit from lighter construction using modern materials and methods. Redundancy and self-sufficiency is less of a requirement. Fully lined interiors and other conveniences are often the norm on coastal cruisers. Even quality coastal cruisers use molded force grids or pans that are glued in rather than laid up in place. Framing is often wider spaced and less robust than offshore boats. Hull panels are often cored and thinner than on an offshore boat. Rarely do coastal receive the careful workmanship that is required for a quality race boat, or the high safety factors ideally applied to a dedicated offshore cruiser. Then again they don't need either as their use and abuse is generally much less harsh then encountered in the life cycles of either racing or offshore cruising boats. 

On a coastal cruiser there should be good wide berths, with enough sea berths for at least half of the crew for that night run back to make work the next day. A Coastal cruiser should have a well-equipped galley but the galley needs to be larger on a coastal cruiser so that there is adequate space to prepare meals for the typically larger crew or a raft-up. Refrigeration is less important on a coastal cruiser, where ice is typically readily available at the next port of call. A coastal cruiser can get by with less weight per crew person but generally is cruised by a larger crew. 

There is a perception that coastal cruisers so not need storage. I disagree with that. Coastal cruisers need different kinds of storage than an offshore boat but not necessarily less storage. Good storage is needed to accommodate the larger crowds that are more likely to cruise on a short trip. Good water and holding tankage is important because people use water more liberally inshore assuming a nearby fill up, but with a larger crew this takes a toll quickly. Holding tanks are not needed offshore but they are being inspected with greater frequency in crowded harbors and there are few things worse than cruising with a full holding tank and no way to empty it. Offshore boats generally need larger fuel tanks. 

I would say unequivocally that for coastal cruising a fin keel is the right way to go. The greater speed, lesser leeway, higher stability and ability to stand to an efficient sail plan, greater maneuverability and superior windward performance of a fin keel with spade rudder (either skeg or post hung) are invaluable for coastal work. Besides fin keels/bulb keels are much easier to un-stick in a grounding.

Light air performance and the ability to change gears is important for a coastal cruiser. It means more sailing time vs. motoring time and the ability to adjust to rapid changes in weather likely to be encountered along the coast, If you are going to gunkhole under sail, maneuverability is important. Windward and off wind performance is also important. 

With all of that in mind, I would suggest that a fractional sloop rig with a generous standing sail plan, non- or minimally overlapping jibs, and an easy to use backstay adjuster is ideal. This combination is easy to tack and trim or change gears on. I would want two-line slab reefing for quick, reliable on the fly, reefing. I would want an easy to deploy spinnaker as well. This is especially true of a single-handed coastal cruiser. 

I think that speed is especially important to coastal cruising. To me speed relates to range and range relates to more diverse opportunities. With speed comes a greater range that is comfortable to sail in a given day. In the sailing venues that I have typically sailed in, being able to sail farther in a day means a lot more places that can be reached under sail without flogging the crew or running the engine. When coastal cruising, speed also relates to being able to duck in somewhere when things get dicey. 

Boats like the Tartan 3700, Elan 37, the Hanse 370/371, X-37 (who ever said that the X boat is a race boat obviously is not familiar with the X37) and even the various Catalinas, Beneteaus, and Hunters mentioned above, all make good and in some cases great, coastal cruisers. But few are robust or configured to make ideal circumnavigators, no less decent single-handers.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

A boat that is a capable circumnavigator
A typical well-used coastal cruiser might only sail five hundred to a thousand miles a year. Most do less. A well-used offshore cruiser may do as much as 20,000 to 30,000 miles in a single year (10,000 15,000 being more typical). Whether traditional or modern, offshore cruising boats need to be designed to stand up to the long haul. A single year of offshore cruising can literally be the equivalent the abuse encountered in 20 or 30 years of coastal cruising. 

Traditional offshore cruisers come in a range of flavors. Whether fiberglass, steel, alloy or timber, traditional offshore cruisers tend to have robust hulls that are simply constructed. Hull panels tend to be very heavy, accessible and maintainable. Internal framing tends to be widely spaced or almost non-existent. Engineering tends to be simple and reliable. Materials tend to be low tech, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The down side is that a weight goes into these structures using up valuable displacement that could be used for additional carrying capacity or ballast. Some of his weight is carried high in the hull and deck structure reducing stability and increasing roll and pitch. 

Modern offshore cruisers tend to use higher tech materials and structural design. Some robustness and redundancy may be given up, but often the better of these newer designs have greater strength despite their lighter weight. These newer designs often take advantage of sophisticated framing systems and purposefully selected alloys or laminates. They often benefit from careful engineering intended to improve impact resistance and longevity. 

Dedicated offshore boats generally have smaller cockpits with very large drains. The cockpits are deeper and have taller coamings to protect the crew. This makes them less comfortable for lounging and less easy to move in and out of. Ideally offshore boats have bridge decks that are higher than the lowest point of the coaming and companionway slides that can be locked in place to avoid down flooding. All of which makes moving about a bit less convenient than would be ideal for coastal cruising or living aboard.

There is a less obvious choice when it comes to the keel and rudder type for offshore cruising. Many people prefer long or full keels for offshore work but to a great extent this is a somewhat anachronistic way of thinking that emerges from recollections of early fin-keelers. Properly engineered and designed, a fin keels with a skeg hung rudder can be a much better choice for offshore work. There is the rub. Few fin keelers in the size and price range that most people purchase for offshore cruising are engineered and designed for the abuses of dedicated offshore cruising. That said, popular offshore cruisers like the Pacific Seacraft, and Valiants have adapted skeg-hung spade rudders while the Island Packets have chosen to use a rudder post hung spade rudder. 

Boats like Tayana 37's, Valiant 37 (Esprit) and Valiant 40's, Pacific Seacrafts, Passports, Calibers and the like, make excellent offshore distance cruisers but they are pretty poor as coastal cruising, live-aboard single-handers. 

Which brings me back to my original point. At some level JEdwards needs to define his plan. Perhaps spend less initially, buy a simplier, smaller, used- boat and learn how to sail and own a boat. Learn more about his tastes, and then go out and find the exact right boat for his long term dream. 

Jedwards I know that this must seem like a detour but it is not. But even if it is a slight detour, you'll still have a great time along the way. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Cruisindad Doh*

Also married 30+ years thanks muchly for the advice, we are beyond happy and do the chosing together.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Excellent Summary Jeff...if I can call 4 pages a summary! <grin>
Wow ...this thread got some action today eh? Time for bed!


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Boat choice*

Jeff,

I am absolutely floored (and if you knew me, you'd know that's not an easy task). I cannot believe that you took the time to write such a comprehensive answer for my benefit. I am very grateful that you would do so. I hope that others learned from your response as well.

Along those lines, today is my first day here and if I have not already said so, this group is the most helpful, and more importantly, respectful forum I have ever seen. I was formerly in the another business (to remain unnamed) and those forums are often childish, mindless and downright cruel. If this group is any indication of the sailing community, I cannot join fast enough. Thank you all.

Well, in what I can only receive with a smile, many of you have very intelligently presented absolutely contrasting ideas. That's good, because it opens up intelligent debate. I have a range of recommendations from a Tayana 42 to something used smaller than a 30', and they are all supported by logical reasoning, though another may disgaree.

Per Jeff's comment, no, I do not with to become someone who knows just enough to get by, or worse, be dangerous. I would hate to be an amateur in a storm. I don't mind the life-threatening part, but I would if it were because of my incompetence.

The truth is, at this point, I simply don't know. Almost everyone seemed to agree on the Tayana (or at least most didn't stronly oppose it), right up until Jeff said it wasn't a good coastal or live-aboard, and based on his thorough response, I'm going to safely assume he knows what he's talking about. I came into this forum pretty set on the Tartan 3500/3700, but the word "circumnavigation" quickly shot that down, in one case in caps.

Most of you liked the Valiants, but their website shows nothing smaller than a 42', and I think we've determined my limited abilities and single-handed sailing rule out a 42'. That's if I can get it insured.

I liked the X-Yacht X-37, but was told it was more than I need, and I still don't know if you would (collectively) call it safe for a circumnav.

What I did notice is that most of the conversation was based around a handful of boatmakers.

I suppose I could rule out a circumnavigation for a few years, however I was looking to keep my boat for many years, so that does pose an issue.

I am sorry that I have taken so much of your time, but I do so greatly appreciate it. I had learned more today than from months of researching on my own. I hope it at least provided an interesting conversation for all of you. I would still appreciate your feedback on the question.

I thank you all.

-James


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You have to bear in mind that Jeff has a Chesapeake Bay bias. (Not an overt criticism but a fact). The Bay has lighter winds, less current and less swell than you are going to find in LA. The fact is Jeff likes light displacement fin keel boats which perform beautifully on the Bay and the coastal waters of the East Coast. In our part of the world, something like a Farr 38, (which Jeff owns), is a superior boat to something like what I own, (41' Seawolf). 
You are likely going to be cruising to Mexico or Catalina on vacations or maybe up to San Francisco. You are talking bigger winds, ocean swells and strong currents. A Farr 38 might not be the best choice for out there. (Not that Jeff is suggesting one but you will see my point). 
I have sailed out west and found it to be more challenging than what we are accustomed to here. You tend to see heavier displacement boats with deeper keels out west than you see here on East Coast. So I would take a look at what West Coasters are sailing before you accept the advice of internetters.
I am not saying Jeff is wrong, but pointing out that there is more to the equation. (By the way Jeff, I think I have read all that before, was that an article you wrote?).

As for Valiants, Tayanas or Passports not being good liveaboards or singlehanders...sorry Jeff but that is just horsehockey. These are exceptional boats for singlehanding. I would include Island Packets in this group. They track quite well, are well balanced and easy to sail. If you trim the sails correctly, you barely need an autopilot. Any singlehander will tell you that this is a very desirable feature. The cutter rig is also a superior rig for singlehanding because the staysail gives you so many options. I also think these boats have a lot of room for living aboard. Remember, you are buying a sailboat not an RV or houseboat. Good Luck.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One other point I'd make is that most liveaboards, are in a marina, where there are usually shower and bathroom facilities, making the need for a separate shower, which is usually a luxury on most sailboats, less of a necessity, even if you're going to hold an office job.


----------



## Curt (May 29, 2006)

I like all the information they have giving you. I have been reading this board for a long time and though I have not purchased the boat I want yet I have changed my mind several times due to the info I have read here.
I was wanting to ask you though, if you are going to finance so much of the boat how do you work to make payments and sail all over at the same time? 
I know there are many people that work from home (I am one of them) but you are talking of going many places that this just may not be so easy.
I was also wondering also if you want the peace of mind of being out there alone and quiet, how can you relax knowing another payment is due? 
They will not be small payments giving your small down payment and the insurance for that much coverage when you have limited skills will be brutal. They will want to see you have passed some classes so you may want to get started on them right away.
I would think it may be a better move to take the cash and buy a boat outright and let your income refit and fund your venture. 
This is more my line of thinking because though I have the means of purchasing the boat I settle on outright, I want the relaxation of not being constrained by cash flow.
I Have been looking at some older boats, Morgan Island Outback 41's to Formaosa's to CT's and even some Islanders. All of which can be had for your downpayment alone. I first wanted a Pearson 424 or a Pearson 38 both 90k respectivley. I almost made a move on the 424 but then a few guys here indicated caution. Not because of the boat but because of concern of my skills and ability. I was not offended as you should not be either. 
I have "old sailing skills" sailed years ago but not in 20 years and far from polished. 
I am now convinced that since it is "only money" that I would do myself much better justice to go a little smaller and enjoy my time and experience more. I can always sell and re-purchase another boat when I am ready and know better what serves our needs. 
I was told on this board to consider maint, slip rent, haul outs, and insurance just as you have been.
I am a researcher, I went to work. What I found was the damn disappointing truth of the matter is these guys offering the advice were dead center. I called the marinas and found that that (40') word meant a whole lot more loot each month but that was not so bad, it was the availability that was nearly extinct. I would be a fossil by the time I could get a slip and then again I wanted to travel. 
The haul outs were modest if compared to say a sub 39 and but the paint and other work would be significantly higher along with the yard rent.
Insurance we have covered above and is doable if you can offer some proof of ability. Remember I was paying cash and not tying to satisfy a lender with a much larger overall value. 
I live on the west coast also and I have talked to many of the salts at the marina over the last several months. The sea can be like glass or it can be like the worst movie you have ever seen. The best water conditions do not matter a bit when the wind just will not give it to ya. 
The current is funky as somebody said earlier and it is a long beating all the way north. This may not be a problem for you but I am in the Puget Sound and I want to get to Mexico and the Caribbean would be nice. 
I have come to the conclusion that I will be getting a smaller boat, Pearson 365 or 38 maybe, perhaps an earlier 39. I like Pearsons as you may suspect but the not just because of the looks or layout but more because I just cannot find anybody who does not like them for any good reason. 
Just thought I would offer my opinion for what it is worth and thanks for bringing up the subject, I am still learning what I need to know.

That said I would like to ask the sailor who said the blistering problem was at its worst between 1975 and 1980. 

Could you tell me if that was across the industry or was it just in the boats you mentioned? Was it a problem with the Pearson also?

Thanks again and Welcome to the board.


----------



## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

It seems to me that you have no experience cruising and that it therefore makes a lot more sense to buy an in expensive used boat and try coastal cruising to see how much you enjoy it before you slap down 300K. Go to yachtworld.com and see how many new used boats are on the market and you'll see that there are alot of people who thought they'd like cruising, spent a large cunk of change and then discovered they did not like it. You could buy a used Catalina 36 from the 80's what your planning to use as a deposit. The resale market is very good for these boats so either way you could recoup your investment quite quickly. You will also gain considerable knowledge on what to look for and what you want in a cuising boat. You need to do alot more research both on and off the water and while forums like this are a good place to start, by no means should it be the only source of reference. I get the impression that you are quite impulsive and that is a quality that needs to be reined in when buying a boat. Buying a boat should be a long process if you plan to keep it for a long time...what's the rush?


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

more personal opinion....

The points made by Jeff are very valuable. Not a heck of a lot of disagreement at all... based on the OP's stated preferences, skill set and desires, we've all chimed in with our biases... Man, I love this. I wonder how many decades of sailors are here? Everyone brings such a wealth of experience. The only thing I have to add is that these are our experiences, your mileage may vary. 

One suggestion I do have is start wandering the marinas, walk the docks, talk to people about their boats, and how they use them, what they like and what they wish they could change.

Another suggestion, is to "buy used" for obvious reasons... Hey, buy new if you want, get just what you want. But, trouble with that is, you've got no practical experience to know what that is. (no offense, eh?) 

Now, Jeff, I gotta take a little issue with your satatement about the coastal/singlehanded/thing...
(ok, I'm gonna be a Valiant whore for a minute)

Greatest number of shorthanded Trans-Ocean passages.
Greatest number of shorthanded Circumnavigations.
A Fastest Solo Circumnavigation, Caribbean 1500
First Overall ONE/TWO Bermuda race. 

Is it suitable as a liveabord? If I had a chance, I'd chuck this place in a New York minute and move aboard one this afternoon, and never look back. 
But hey, thats just me. 


(I'll contact the person who asked about blisters via email)


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Cardiac... we have friends who have circumnavigated on a Valiant 42 and (once blisters cured), it is a great boat and deserving of its' reputation. So...I will defend your honor! Here's my stolen list of offsore boat candidates (over 30'):

Valiant Yachts, Tayana, Cabo Rico, Pacific Seacraft, Bristol, Shannon, Crealock, Perry, CSY, Norseman, Mason, Moody, Derecktor, Brewer, Hallberg Rassey, Freedom, Passport, Hinckley, Bayfield, Corbin, , Little Harbor, Hood, Westsail, Hinckley, Bowman, Hylas, Camper Nicholson, Cheoy Lee, Cherubini, Hans Christian, Oyster, Westerly, Amel, Nautor Swan, Stevens, Baltic, Cambria, Kelley Peterson, Norseman, Alden, Island Packet, Taswell, Passport, Baltic, Caliber, Vagabond, CT, Formosa


Any others to add guys??


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

*Cam...*

Thanks... Hey, it ain't my honor, I've got no vested interest in them.

but, ok, so, you eat b'fast where I live to where every new one is floated and be home in time for a second cup of coffee.

FWIW there are a few 32's and 37's on the market too.


----------



## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*two heads vs. one revisted*

Ok SailingDog, I just returned from a few days on the Chesapeake. We did manage to get by with just one head on the vessel somehow. 

Thanks for your additional thoughts on this. From your response to my "less is more ?" post I gather that even from your point of view it really depends on what head components are used and how the head system(s) is/are installed. It really comes down to proper engineering. I have seen multiple head systems installed independently without any shared plumbing. That of course can sacrifice some storage. As the vessel size grows with the same number of occupants, storage space becomes less of an issue. As with so many systems in sailboats and other things, there are always such trade-offs to balance.

Even with mutliple heads sharing a single tank, the inclusion of a few valves can ensure quickly isolating problematic head plumbing to keep the working head operating. Yes, I realize more valves means more maintenance and cost. Spending my boat bucks well towards the head plumbing has been a high priority on my vessels. The head systems are fundamental to the vessel function.

I originally objected to what seemed to be a blanket statement that having more than one head is not a good thing. The takeaway for me is that multiple head systems should be scrutinized for the types of weaknesses that you point out may exist.



sailingdog said:


> captnnero-
> 
> It depends on the exact layout of the boat...but on many boats, one of the heads will have a much longer run to the holding tank, and the hose that makes that longer run is much more susceptible to permeation, leaks, and other problems. Also, if the two heads are plumbed wrong, a problem in one can often take out both heads, by constricting or blocking the line to the holding tank.
> 
> ...


----------



## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*Pressurized holding tanks*



camaraderie said:


> Not a bad idea...now get enough hose and a Y-valve assembly to replace those and you're all set unless you crack the bowl!
> BTW...if you ever can't pump the handle...it means the line is clogged AND pressurized! Ask me how I know!!!


Yeah, I've seen that too. The vent got clogged when heeled and mostly full. That happened a couple of times. Besides the handle not pumping the other clues were that the holding tank was bulging from pressure and there was a slight amount of nasty stuff escaping from the deck pumpout fitting. Yikes!

Now at least I have one of those Atwood fuel vent surge check valves in the vent line for the holding tank. That way at least the vent screen would get plugged if there is an overfilled situation. When the vent screen plugs you have a pressurized sewage system and no way to release the pressure.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Ask some insurers, some will not take a new boat owner (without previous ownership or extensive experience) for anything over 28-30'.

If you can afford something new...by all means. There's a steep penalty to be paid in the depreciation, but it also means you don't have to worry about the neglect and ah, creative maintenance of previous owners. And you can be sailing instead of fixing, at least initially.<G>

OTOH, even with a new boat you want to check it THOROUGHLY, as builders and brokers (who usually do the final prep and mods) have been known to get things wrong. These days, if anyone can take the time to "do it right"...very few people can afford to pay for it.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just remember, even if you buy new, there is a fair amount of work that you'll need to do to get the boat sailable, at least in terms of things you need to customize, re-fit, purchase, and install.


----------



## infonote (Jun 27, 2006)

This site may help you, it is a checklist.

http://www.hsyacht.com/purchasechecklist.shtml


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That list is not a bad start but unfortunately, it is not a very good list for sailboats or for used boats. Its missing questions about rigging, electronics, and sail condition. It also does not make the sea trial a condition of the purchase or provide a list of items that you should be observing on a sea trial. It does not discuss a purchase from a private owner. 

Jeff


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, there are far more powerboats out there than sailboats. However, that should be changing if the gas prices stay the way they are.


----------



## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*sail to power boat ratio*



sailingdog said:


> Unfortunately, there are far more powerboats out there than sailboats. However, that should be changing if the gas prices stay the way they are.


As one would expect there is already a glut of power boats for sale forming but the buyers aren't cooperating, so now watch the prices dive and the charitable donations increase. Of course since they changed the tax rules the charitable write-off isn't what it used to be either.

I just had a great weekend sailing 25 miles to Oxford, MD in two legs. Then we motored back in calm winds Sunday. The last two seasons the power boat wakes are much less down our way on the Chesapeake near Deale. At cruise speed I know that we used less than two gallons of diesel or about 6 bucks. I even buy road diesel for quality and don't worry about the road taxes, just livin' large on a 34 sailboat.


----------

