# Alberg 37 or Cape Dory 36



## darius (Mar 22, 2002)

I am searching for my first boat. My two favorite boats are Alberg 37 and Cape Dory 36 Cutter.I am hoping to spend about 50k for a boat and another 20 k for refurbishing. I''ve got about three years to make this dream come true, to become a full time sailor. Meanwhile will be taking classes at sailing school, and would really like to crew a boat. Also how can I get to see Cape Dory 36 or A37 from inside. I would appreciate any suggestions.


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## KIKO (Mar 10, 2002)

Check Yachtworld.com, under boats for sale

Good luck!!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Darius, 

With all due respect, if you are just now learning to sail, how did you happen to narrow your choices to just these two boats? 

As to getting out sailing, where do you live?

Jeff


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## thomasstone (Dec 21, 2001)

With all due respect Jeff, Have you not seen these boats? Both of them "beautiful"!
thomas


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## thomasstone (Dec 21, 2001)

I would take the cape dory. I like a cutter better than a yawl. Although I have seen alot of alberg 37s rigged as sloops.
thomas


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## darius (Mar 22, 2002)

Jeff,
As Thomas says those two are the most beautiful..
The other thing I don''t want to think about getting a better boat in a couple years after this one. They both are easy for single handling, what I think will be doing a lot and I''m changing a lifestyle not going for a vacation. I did crew a little while ago when I was living in Europe and going to Art school.
Darius
[email protected]


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## darius (Mar 22, 2002)

Thomas,
is it a big difference in the performance between yawl and sloop? I know the physical difference.
darius


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

While I agree that both are reasonably visually attractive, (which was the answer that I expected to hear)how a boat looks is only a small component of what makes a good boat. Buying a boat because of its looks is a bit like wanting to marry a calender girl. There are other traditional and attractive designs out there in your size and price range that are better sailing boats. 

Both of these boats, like most of Alberg''s designs, derive from CCA racing rule ''rule beaters''. They have extremely short waterlines, narrow beam and a rig that is heavily dependent on large genoas in moderate to light air.

Having sailed on the Ablerg 37, and observed the Cape Dory 36 underway, these are slow, wet, cramped,tender boats that are sailed at large heel angles, do not track well and that are not very good in a chop or quartering seaway. 

On the positive side, both offer comparatively shallow draft which is nice and a simple, very workable interior layout. The Whitby built Alberg is nicely construted. The Alberg 37 (at least the one that I sailed on), had undersized winches for the big genoa) 

In my book, neither boat make very little sense for someone who is starting out in sailing and who really wants to learn sailtrim and boat handling. That is best done on a smaller, more responsive boat. 

With regard to the Cutter vs Yawl rig, Cutters generally tend to be more weatherly (point upwind better)and sail better dead down wind. Cutters tend to have sturdier staying but generally end up with running backstays in extreme weather when snugged down to staysail and heavily reefed mainsail or storm trisail. One disadvantage of a cutter rig is that it more difficult to tack the genoa through the small gap between the forestay and jibstay. My normal advise on cutter rigs is to set it up so that the jibstay can be detached and stored against the mast when in conditions that warrant using the genoa. This really shouldn''t be done on the Cape Dory because the forestay is tacked to the end of the bowsprit rather than the stem. 

Yawls really came into being as race rule beaters. Under previous racing rules, the sail area of jibs and mizzens were pretty much ignored in the rating. This popularized the masthead rig and the yawl. There was a bit of a valid basis for not measuring the sail area of a yawl under these rules. On a yawl going to windward, the mizzenmast and sail actually produce more drag than they produce drive. This is because the mizzen is sailing in really turbulent air and has to be over trimmed to keep from luffing which can effectively act as an airbrake. 

Downwind mizzens also are a problem. In this case they are forcing the main or foresail to operate in their bad air and so again they are not adding as much to the speed of the boat as they are taking away. BUT in the predominantly reaching races that were typical of offshore races of the era when Yawls were popular they offered a number of advantages. First of all on a reach the sails are not acting in the slipstream of each other and so each contributes a fair amount of drive for the drag produced. Also with the advent of lightweight low stretch sail cloths, mizzen staysails, which are great reaching sails but a fair amount of work to fly (You must douse and raise on each jibe), came into widespread usage in racing. 

One nice advantage of a yawl is the ability to sail ''jib and jigger''in heavy air, meaning sailing with just a small jib and the mizzen. Yawls don''t do this as well as ketches because the mizzens tend to be too small and mizzens on yawls are rarely stayed as solidly as one would like. 

I also do not consider these boats to be particularly good single-handers. The required use of large genoas makes these boats hard to tack shorthanded. Even with a good autopilot, large genoas are really difficult to tack with one person because you really need to overstand the tack until the genoa blows through the gap between the forestay and jib stay and past the shrouds and then harden back up to bring in the jib. 

This is not meant as a put down in any sense, but I would suggest that you spend more time out on the water, and try to sail on a variety of different designs before locking in on just two models. I would also suggest that you start with a smaller lighter boat while you are learning to sail. You may not end up trading up, but even if you do, you will end up a better sailor for it. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## darius (Mar 22, 2002)

Thank you Jeff for giving me a lot of material to think about.
The reason why I''m looking at bigger boats is that I want to live aboard once I will be done refurbishing it. Meanwhile I will be taking some classes in the school based in Jersey City and they teach on J24 sloops. 
What I read about Cape Dory and Alberg so far every owner of those boats adores them..
If racing will not be my priority what other cruising yachts I should look at? I want to go to an extended trips first down Atlantic Shore later across the ocean - weather that will be in 5 or 10 years.
I was reading a bit about Allied Boat Company - they are much cheaper than Albergs boats - are they not as good? 
I like traditional look and I know that I wouldn''t be happy with Hunter or Catalina..
Thanks for your time 
Darius


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## thomasstone (Dec 21, 2001)

Hey Darius, another reason I like a cutter better is the ease for singlehandling, you can have two smaller headsails instead of one big genny. In heavy weather you can easily drop your headsail and sail with your staysail and reefed main, plus in really nasty weather a cutter is a very well balanced rig when hove to with a storm jib and trysail. I personally have sailed on a couple of different cutters and dont recall hanging the jib up on the inner forestay being a problem, besides on an offshore passage you could be on the same tack for days.The big reason for me is I am a singlehander myself and a strong proponent for self steering(wind vanes).On a yawl the boom of the mizzen mast would get in the way of your self steering gear. While thier are alot of boats that will certainly sail better ,thier is always going to be a boat that will sail better or look better on paper.I think Jeff also said these boats are slow and wet. Compared to what? Sailing offshore is always wet whether on a modern egg beater or a heavy displacement boat, again with a proper dodger and weather cloths this can be kept to a minumin.I think both of these boats are in the 16,000lb range anyways so depending on who you talk to I would consider these more of a moderate displacement. Lastly I think this gets over looked to much , but you are right on ,looks matter alot. I think I read this once her but somebody said when you tie your boat up for the day and start walking away, do you stop and take one last look? 
thomas


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## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

I once did a two week surveying course at Woodenboat School in Brooklin, Maine. Paul Coble, the designer of the Pearson Ariel or Triton - can''t remember - but the design is always incorrectly attributed to Alberg - made a rather cryptic comment about Cape Dorys as we inspected a 40. Something about serious thinning of glass layup as you move up the hull. He was very leery, to my surprise, of CD construction....


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have always been a little leery of Cape Dory construction quality as well. The really early ones were really poorly constructed. While they greatly improved over the years, and they added a lot of expensive details (bronze ports, nicely done interior joiner work etc.) the glass work and framing spacing never looked all that great to me. 

I can''t say that I am familiar with Paul Coble but the Triton was definitely designed by Alberg. The Ariel was also ascribed to Alberg but I have always understood that the changes to the Ariel that produced the Commander (a weekender version of the Ariel) was done at Pearson in-house. Perhaps that is the boat that Paul Coble was responsible for. 

Regards
Jeff


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## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

Paul Coble is a surveyor (or was) with worldwide practice out of Newport, R.I. I remember reading an article about him years after I did the two week intensive surveying class with him. Dammit. The point of the article was that he did a quick and dirty design of one of the ''60''s Pearsons, never really got paid and never got a ride on one of the boats. Funny thing is, Everett and Clint never mention him when they run down the model years - mostly Bill Shaw and Carl Alberg.


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## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

For some reason I think it was the Ariel. My assumption all along has been that the Commander is an inboardless Ariel with outboard well.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

In the 1960''s there was a fad of what were called ''weekenders''. Weekenders used the hulls from coastal cruisers of the era but instead of a trunk and doghouse cabin, they had cuddy cabins with a vee-berth, head and perhaps a seaswing stove. The space saved by shortening the cabin gave them nice long cockpits.

In the Pearson line up there was an Electra which was a coastal cruiser and an Ensign which was the weekender. The Arial which was a coastal cruiser and an Commander which was the weekender. Both the Arial and the Commander were available with either an inboard Atomic 4 or an outboard well. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am not a real newbie been sailing about ten years mostly on lakes but i am on the bay now. my question is could you seadogs out there give me a list of boats with full keels I know this is strange but my wife has this fear of the keel of the boat falling off she read about this in a book where someone loosened the bolts of the husbands boat it let loose and the boat turned turtle and sunk with all aboard. She really is a good sport because she wants to buy a really safe boat for us, last one I recieved for my birthday,neat huh! I think a cheoy lee is ok but very open for sugestions thanks


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Explain to her that full keel or fin, if someone is suicidal enough to back off the keel bolts then the keel will be lost either way. Heck, few boats have a longer keel than my folkboat, but when I was restoring it we picked up the boat and the keel stayed on the cradle (bad keel bolts on a 20 year old boat). On the other hand, my family lost a Vanguard when its long encapsulated keel dropped away after being driven on the rocks during a winter storm. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

thanks for that bit of info Iam working with a short budget and would still like to have a list of boats in the 29 to thirty foot range with full keels I have looked at cd and bristol and even braved the Island packet dealer but they are too rich for my blood I suppose you get what you pay for ?
need help on this one kd


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## maiden (Mar 9, 2002)

In my search to buy a boat,I have come across these full keel boats in that size range:

Triton 28'', designed by Alberg, yawl or sloop

Alberg 29''sloop

Southern Cross 28, designed by Gilmer, cutter

Leigh 30, designed by C.W. Paine,cutter

Sea Sprite 27, designed by Luders, sloop

I haven''t sailed any of them. The Alberg sure is pretty.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

A Fuji 32 is a great boat easy to sail and dry even in rough seas and it Won't loose it's Keel. They are a great Blue water boat.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

considering the posts you are replying to are SIX YEARS OLD, I doubt they much care. please check the dates on posts before replying. I'd highly recommend you read this *POST* to help you get the most out of sailnet.



FlyingSailor said:


> A Fuji 32 is a great boat easy to sail and dry even in rough seas and it Won't loose it's Keel. They are a great Blue water boat.


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> While I agree that both are reasonably visually attractive, (which was the answer that I expected to hear)how a boat looks is only a small component of what makes a good boat. Buying a boat because of its looks is a bit like wanting to marry a calender girl. There are other traditional and attractive designs out there in your size and price range that are better sailing boats.
> 
> Quote from John Vigor "Avoid excessively ugly boats because they indicate a serious lack of knowledge of design or construction. No useful boat need ever be ugly"
> The Cape Dory 36 and the Alberg 37 are both beautiful classic boats.


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> considering the posts you are replying to are SIX YEARS OLD, I doubt they much care. please check the dates on posts before replying. I'd highly recommend you read this *POST* to help you get the most out of sailnet.


Who looks at dates ?


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

Darius,

Deciding on a boat is an involved process. I sent years looking at different boats, in person, in adds, and in compilations of reviews such a Pratical Sailor's volumns. All the while chartering on a variety of boats over a 25+ year period. The boats that I lusted after changed and in general grew in size. Doing it somewhat "cold" with out actually having a lot of experience has got to be tough. In the end I more or less bought my boat on the spur of a moment when I got the oportunity to get a hard to come by mooring up in Boothbay Harbor ME.

One thing that changed over the years was the need for more comfort and space. I would think that this would be especially true for a live a board.

I have chartered several Cape Dory 36's and they are a great boat. I think with the cutter rig it would be suitable for single handling. The Cape Dory owners association has a very active site and there is an active livaboard member with a 36 so you might get some specific advice there capedory.org.

Before you pull the trigger I'd suggest you think about some pilot house models. You'd be surprised at the variety that is out there. One thing I often disliked was needing to stay below in an anchorage with out any view of the out side in bad weather. Pilot houses greatly expand your living space and many do not have that "cluncky" or tacked on look. There are a lot that have a very salty look. Three is nothing that beats sitting in my pilot house on a cold rainy morning drinking my morning coffee dry and warm.

Three very different designs that can give you a ideal of the variety are Corbin 39 PH, Mariner 35 PH and a Fischer 36. All very different. Good luck.

Joe


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LinekinBayCD—

I seriously doubt that Darius much cares, as his OP was from 2002, and is over SEVEN YEARS OLD... if he hasn't bought a boat by now, he's likely dead.


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## elkscout (Feb 12, 2010)

*So Sensitive.*



sailingdog said:


> LinekinBayCD-
> 
> I seriously doubt that Darius much cares, as his OP was from 2002, and is over SEVEN YEARS OLD... if he hasn't bought a boat by now, he's likely dead.


Saildog, this is the 2nd similar comment you made in this thread. From you and others, I get the impression that unless the topic has never been discussed, then don't bother to post. Somebody was carrying on the other day because two people asked essentially the same kind of question that had been discussed several years ago, and they failed to search for the info before posting the question. So, before I get chastised again, I'm reading some "older" threads to gain info. (I thought that was one purpose of these forums, along with some of the stated groundrules), therefore, the added comments/replies are helpful to newbies/new subscribers. 

Makes me wonder why you're reading such an old thread. 

Since I've committed another posting sin of getting off topic (which I thought also occurred in this thread with the question about deep keels), I'll mention that the search capabilities within this web application and the server response times make it more "labor intensive" to find answers to questions.
I thought that was another reason for these forums- to share information.

If I met you in a marina bar or at dock, and we were having a friendly conversation, getting to know one another, and I asked your opinion about anchors, would you tell me "Oh you should have been here yesterday- we talked about anchors then. Today, we are talking about outsourcing widgits in Bombay."?

This site is really informative- not as easy to use as a revived ignorant sailing enthusiast with a thousand questions would care for, but with everyone's blessing, I'll continue to read and participate when I can.


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## DominoX (Aug 13, 2015)

*Re: So Sensitive.*

GOOD FOR YOU ELK !!!!! My sentiments exactly.


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