# Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...



## JonEisberg

*Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

This guy is as hardcore as they come, one of the toughest sailors on the planet. Sounds like he and his crew are very lucky to be alive, after what had to be an amazing rescue, under extremely difficult conditions...



> We were a little ahead of the front, downwind. There was a steady 43-45 knots [of wind], but it was manageable. We were prepared for this gale. We were under storm jib, with four reefs in the mainsail. *Clearly, we really had the handbrake on, but in a wave the boat broke in two just behind the daggerboards.*
> 
> "The mast did not fall immediately. We quickly closed all boat bulkheads and the rig fell over the stern. Very quickly we asked for help and organised our survival plan.
> 
> "We were prepared to leave the boat. The sea was huge, so we tried to assess the risk of damage to Cheminées Poujoulat. Damien and I tried to cut away the 60ft mast, but we did not succeed. It was really too dangerous. However, we managed to hold it a little below the water and stop it battering so badly against the hull. Afterwards we went inside and got all our survival gear together. We were not sure how long the boat would stay afloat."
> 
> Read more at Bernard Stamm rescue: 'I swam for my life' | Yachting World


Not a place I'd want to have to go swimming, during a storm on Christmas Eve...


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## Greenflash35

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Any body know the age of the boat, and mostly what type of glass and resin it was made out of ?


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## flyingwelshman

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Holy Cow! Tough indeed!

Not the first time he's had to be rescued:










I guess when you push the envelope.....


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

You have the full story, including a very dificult rescue here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1246690-post5594.html


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## nolatom

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Wow, that was a close one. Boats are supposed to be tougher than their crews, aren't they?? Not here. 45 knots of wind is difficult enough without your boat breaking in two. What price speed??

A hearty vote of thanks to these guys:

MV STAR ISFJORD (General cargo vessel): ship particulars and AIS position - IMO 9182978, MMSI 257615000 - FleetMon.com

Sailors are often prone to complaining about merchant vessels. But many more sailors would have been lost without them.


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



nolatom said:


> Wow, that was a close one. Boats are supposed to be tougher than their crews, aren't they?? Not here. 45 knots of wind is difficult enough without your boat breaking in two. What price speed??
> ....


Not very fast boats...or very fast cars for that matter: If you push them over the limit they break.

With the power these boats have they cannot stand full power in all conditions. It is up to the sailor to manage the boat and to keep it on a single piece.

But I don't think it was the case: they were on a delivery voyage with 4 reefs on the main and a small head sail.

Even if the boat had already one circumnavigation and several transats, many carbon Open 60s continue to race and to sail safely after more than 20 years and many racing circumnavigations. I would say a design or build problem that was revealed only now and in a very brutal way.

Regards

Paulo


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## nolatom

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

I didn't intend imply they were overcanvassed or such, as they were down to "a tablecloth and a handkerchief" as my father used to characterize it, and going downwind. And doubtless they need some sail to thresh through the seas and steer some kind of a track. They did indeed "have the hand brake on", well said.

It sounds like a pure structural issue. Which is what scares me. These are meant to be passagemaking craft? Or just speedsters? Every design is a compromise, but safety shouldn't be compromised.


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## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Even if the boat had already one circumnavigation and several transats, many carbon Open 60s continue to race and to sail safely after more than 20 years and many racing circumnavigations. I would say a design or build problem that was revealed only now and in a very brutal way.


This previous 'incident' might have been a contributing factor...



> In 2011, Stamm and Jean Francois Cuzon were airlifted off this same Juan Kouyoumdjian-designed IMOCA 60 when the boat was holed close to the the waterline while racing north of the Azores during the last edition of the two-handed Transat Jacques Vabre race.
> 
> Read more at Bernard Stamm rescue: 'I swam for my life' | Yachting World


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



nolatom said:


> ...
> It sounds like a pure structural issue. Which is what scares me. These are meant to be passagemaking craft? Or just speedsters? Every design is a compromise, but safety shouldn't be compromised.


This are not only passagemakers but probably the safest and strongest sailboats around. It seems you don't know very well the class (IMOCA). If you were familiar with it you would know that they have pioneered almost all safety measures taken on modern racing sailboats today and are the ones with more demanding safety standards.

This is a class with dozens of years and many sailboats built. The main problems are canting keel failure, mast and rudder breakage. A broken boat is indeed very rare and I do not remember any other boat (in decades) with a catastrophic structural breakage.

This was a recent boat (2011) so even if the boat had already circumnavigated while racing and done a racing transat among other races.

As I said there are many IMOCA boats still racing after 20 years of active service that included several non stop racing circumnavigations (on the same boat) and many transats, facing big storms and resisting the huge efforts that these racing machines create on the boat structure due to the high speeds achieved.

Any boat can suffer from a bad design or from a defect in the building process and the ones that are more subjected to huge efforts are the ones where those problems can be felt in a more catastrophic way. Very rare as I said but obviously that should be investigated for not happening again.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> This previous 'incident' might have been a contributing factor...


There was some talk about Stamm not being very satisfied with his boat and some suspect that what he said about it was just the point of the iceberg (some more was said on the int. sailboats thread). Anyway, it was his boat and he had not a way of getting a new one even if I am absolutely sure that he never suspected that such a catastrophic failure could happen.






Regards

Paulo


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## nolatom

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> This are not only passagemakers but probably the safest and strongest sailboats around. It seems you don't know very well the class (IMOCA). If you were familiar with it you would know that they have pioneered almost all safety measures taken on modern racing sailboats today and are the ones with more demanding safety standards.
> 
> This is a class with dozens of years and many sailboats built. The main problems are canting keel failure, mast and rudder breakage. A broken boat is indeed very rare and I do not remember any other boat (in decades) with a catastrophic structural breakage.
> 
> This was a recent boat (2011) so even if the boat had already circumnavigated while racing and done a racing transat among other races.
> 
> As I said there are many IMOCA boats still racing after 20 years of active service that included several non stop racing circumnavigations (on the same boat) and many transats, facing big storms and resisting the huge efforts that these racing machines create on the boat structure due to the high speeds achieved.
> 
> Any boat can suffer from a bad design or from a defect in the building process and the ones that are more subjected to huge efforts are the ones where those problems can be felt in a more catastrophic way. Very rare as I said but obviously that should be investigated for not happening again.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Well it's true, I don't know the class very well. So you might pardon my ignorance in wondering if this "probably strongest and safest sailboat around", two years old, breaks in two in 40 to 45 knots downwind under greatly reduced sail, then do the "almost strongest" break in two in 30 knots?

Doesn't seem right..


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## Dog Ship

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Too much engineering and not enough boat.


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



nolatom said:


> Well it's true, I don't know the class very well. So you might pardon my ignorance in wondering if this "probably strongest and safest sailboat around", two years old, breaks in two in 40 to 45 knots downwind under greatly reduced sail, then do the "almost strongest" break in two in 30 knots?
> 
> Doesn't seem right..


You forget to mention one racing full circumnavigations, several transats and many races. Most 50 year old sailing boats had not done anything remotely similar to this in what regards millage and none was subjected to structural stresses a boat like this is subject while racing at more than 20k in bad weather.

But obviously nothing of that has to with this accident because all the other many dozens the boats of this class, older boats, had done much more than that, some during 20 years without any structural problem so the answer, as I had already told you, is obvious:

A built defect or an error in design in what regards the stresses this type of boat are subject.

Anyway, as I have said already, not a common case, in fact so unique (structural catastrophic breakage) that I don't know of any other in several millions of miles these type of boats had sailed in racing conditions.

I fail to understand your concern regarding the safety with a type of boat that by its sailing record is one of the safest if not the safest sailboat around.

Regarding this particular case it is needed an investigation to know what went wrong: the design or the building but again this is an isolated case in a type of boats that reached a very high reliability and safety, a type of sailboat that has been improved in that sector every year on the last twenty.One that this year had already saw its rule modified to provide a greater reliability with the keels and masts.

I would say that if you knew these boats and their rule, particularly in what regards safety, what you would say is that all sailingboats should have that standard in what regards safety measures

Any boat can break in stormy conditions if the boat has a structural defect and has been pushed for a long time till that defect assumes catastrophic proportions....and this boat has been pushed hard for many tens of thousands of miles or even hundreds of thousands.

Regards

Paulo


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## nolatom

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

But Paulo, this all-important "investigation" is not going to have the hull in question to examine to determine if/what the alleged structural defect was, correct?


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



nolatom said:


> But Paulo, this all-important "investigation" is not going to have the hull in question to examine to determine if/what the alleged structural defect was, correct?


Probably not but again I fail to understand you: If one boat has a catastrophic failure that it is unheard on similar boats built on the last 20 years years, boats that had made millions of miles and some still race after all that time, do you not consider fundamental to know what went wrong with that particular and single case?

By the way, I don 't understand why you mention 30K regarding the conditiuons were the accident took place. What Stamm said was that: "entre 43 et 45 nœuds de vent établis" that means 43/45K not counting gusting that with that sort of wind would go probably to 60K or over and even so he says it was manageable, saying that he had not saw the need for stop sailing and take evasive survival actions, like a floating anchor.

This should say to you about the type of boat we are talking about. In fact Stamm had already taken a lot worse in it and there are some photos around with the boat on worse conditions even if not the worse he had taken.



Since you don't know the boat I have been patient and I have tried to explain to you and all of what we are talking about (regarding the boat) but I am not interested in discussing this further. I know the boat, I know what I am talking about, if you want to thing otherwise without any evidence to support your " safety concerns" except a freak structural isolated accident in 20 years of racing around the world in these type of boats you are obviously free to do so.

Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



flyingwelshman said:


> Not the first time he's had to be rescued:
> 
> I guess when you push the envelope.....


.... Someone else has to risk their life to pick up the pieces.

AFAIAC these sailors "pushing the envelope" offshore should have to pay every nickle of the cost of rescuing them and a healthy fine on top.

Maybe then they'll leave the envelope pushing for inshore waters and have properly seaworthy boats for offshore.

To my mind they're no different than skiers who go out of bounds.


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## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> This is a class with dozens of years and many sailboats built. The main problems are canting keel failure, mast and rudder breakage. A broken boat is indeed very rare and I do not remember any other boat (in decades) with a catastrophic structural breakage.


Paulo, do you hear yourself? The MAIN problems are keel failures and mast and rudder failures.

The fact that they aren't routinely suffering catastrophic hull failures makes them "probably the safest and strongest boats around"?

I certainly would want to go out on anything you regarded poorly.


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Paulo, do you hear yourself? The MAIN problems are keel failures and mast and rudder failures.
> 
> The fact that they aren't routinely suffering catastrophic hull failures makes them "probably the safest and strongest boats around"?
> 
> I certainly would want to go out on anything you regarded poorly.


Sail these boats at the double of the speed your boat can do and they will go anywhere on absolute safety. Sail your boat at the speed these babies can sail and it will be reduced to little pieces (off course you need to have it towed by a battleship at speed or something like that)

Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Sail these boats at the double of the speed your boat can do and they will go anywhere on absolute safety. Paulo


Except for those pesky rig failures, keel failures, rudder failures and now, hull failures.

All you've said is that they are FAST which was never in doubt.


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## saldrich

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

You got to be tough to survive the open ocean. Reminds me of Robin Knox-Johnston.


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Except for those pesky rig failures, keel failures, rudder failures and now, hull failures.
> 
> ....


Jon, those boats are around for more than 20 years, they have circumnavigated racing hundreds of times, the same boat several times without any incident of this type and then you conclude that a single accident (catastrophic hull breakage) is relevant not of some structural problem on a particular boat but as a general problem on these boats? come on

Regarding rig failures and keel failures, when you push the limits you have problems. Rig failures is a risk in any big offshore racing sailboat (you did not know that?) and when your keel contact with a whale at over 20K... the chances are that something break. This year the rules have been modified regarding standard keels and masts to all, stronger ones to continue to make these boats one of the best offshore sailing boats around.

Maybe a video would help to see the potential in what regards sailing in bad weather?






You seam to be terrible conservative. Maybe the words of one of the more famous cruisers (and more knowledgeable) would help too?

Jimmy Cornell in an interview when asked about his opinion regarding long range cruisers:

*"I advocate for light cruising sailboats, but in the Anglo-Saxon countries, the idea is struggling to win! This is less true in France "*

and when asked about the developments on cruising sailboats:

*The racing sailboats have evolved rapidly in recent years, as opposed to cruising yachts. The racing yacht design has not yet sent all its developments to the world of cruising yacht design. Cruising sailboats are more comfortable and more spacious, but they are not really exciting and it is the fault of the cruising sailors who feel that going at 6 knots its all right ... The boats are often still too heavy in their displacement ...*

From all types of cruising boats, the IMOCA boats are the ones that have more contributed to the evolution of the modern cruiser.

Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Regarding rig failures and keel failures, when you push the limits you have problems. Rig failures is a risk in any big offshore racing sailboat (you did not know that?) and when your keel contact with a whale at over 20K... the chances are that something break. This year the rules have been modified regarding standard keels and masts to all, stronger ones to continue to make these boats one of the best offshore sailing boats around.


Sayula, a stock Swan 65 won the first Whitbread nearly 1/2 century ago - after being rolled and coming back up with her rig intact.

That should be the goal offshore, not a few extra knots at the risk of one or more types of catastrophic failure.

I know, I know - "But they're RACING".

So was Sayula - she still is the last I heard. No dismastings, no keel failures, no rudder failures, no hull failures



> You seem to be terrible conservative. Regards Paulo


When it comes to blue water sailing, I am indeed, particularly when one is talking about the Southern Ocean or the Western Approaches in winter.

You've made it abundantly clear over the years that for you, performance comes first by a very large margin.

I simply think that gnarly blue water is no place to be pushing the envelope. Keep it inshore until the technology is proven. 55 years ago I would have said the same thing about someone who planned to take an early AeroMarine Bounty offshore.

Formula One cars are fantastically strong too but it would be a bad idea to enter one in the Paris-Dakar.


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## christian.hess

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

yay for the above comment!


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Sayula, a stock Swan 65 won the first Whitbread nearly 1/2 century ago - after being rolled and coming back up with her rig intact.
> ....


You can keep the ones that can be rolled

I prefer the ones where that chance is a much harder one



SloopJonB said:


> Formula One cars are fantastically strong too but it would be a bad idea to enter one in the Paris-Dakar.


But you seem a bit confused, or maybe you don't know: Those boats, the IMOCA class were designed to do the sea equivalent of the Paris Dakar: The Vendee Globe, a non stop, solo circumnavigation without assistance around the globe 

The equivalent of F1 of the seas are the America's cup big cats.

Try to solo circumnavigate with the old Sayula and I bet that not even the best sailor would be able to sail it solo, not to mention that he would be at half way when the IMOCA would already arrived.

But that is racing. Regarding cruising I remember you the words of Jimmy Cornell, a cruiser that after having circumnavigated 3 times and is going to circumnavigate one more, this time by the Northwest passage:

* "I advocate for light cruising sailboats, but in the Anglo-Saxon countries, the idea is struggling to win! ... Cruising sailboats are more comfortable and more spacious, but they are not really exciting and it is the fault of the cruising sailors who feel that going at 6 knots its all right ... The boats are often still too heavy in their displacement ..."*

Not a racer talking but a cruiser that likes to sail and hates to do it in a boring way. Well, me too.

Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

O/K Paulo, you're right, I agree - risking the loss of your keel, rig, rudder or even entire boat is a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for higher speed when you're 1000 miles from land.


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## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> But you seem a bit confused, or maybe you don't know: Those boats, the IMOCA class were designed to do the sea equivalent of the Paris Dakar:


They were designed to go as fast as possible shorthanded - period.



> The Vendee Globe, a non stop, solo circumnavigation *without assistance *around the globe


Until something breaks, at which point they call for the Ozzie & AnZac Navies to come and rescue them.



> The equivalent of F1 of the seas are the America's cup big cats.


They are the counterpart to Top Fuel dragsters, not F1 cars.


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## Jaramaz

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> O/K Paulo, you're right, I agree - risking the loss of your keel, rig, rudder or even entire boat is a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for higher speed when you're 1000 miles from land.


Not really convinced that eg an old Swan is better in this respect if the same kind of analysis is made as the flight companies are using, based on distance.

Sailing has changed dramatically the last 50 years. Then it was an accomplishment to just go around the globe. To do it single was extra ordinary, non-stop was not thought about.

Boats has changed, so has how they are used. Few racing are using the old traditional "survival" methods, instead sailing continues. Look on the fantastic photo on Stamm in a Force 10 in Biscaya.

This is of course extreme sailing. Not something I would like to do. But it does have a value, testing design and materials. May later in be used in "cruising" just as has been the case for decades.

Oh, and this about having to be rescued far far away. Risking others life, costly as well. Is this really an argument? Is it better with a 50 year old Swan? Or, any other kind of boat which for some reason starts to leak, hits something or whatever? 
Should we prohibit sailing over large distances? That would be the ultimate consequence of such an argument.

/J


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## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Jaramaz said:


> Oh, and this about having to be rescued far far away. Risking others life, costly as well. Is this really an argument? Is it better with a 50 year old Swan? Or, any other kind of boat which for some reason starts to leak, hits something or whatever?
> 
> Should we prohibit sailing over large distances? That would be the ultimate consequence of such an argument.


Yup, I'd happily take my chances with Bernard Stamm on his Open 60 in a winter storm in the Bay of Biscay, rather than with some comparatively geriatric Salty Dawgs of undetermined pedigree on a 30+ year old Out Island 41 in the Gulf Stream, during the passage of a strong cold front in November


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## christian.hess

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

ooooh I like the above comment too...there are many sides to this...race and race well and competitevily you will have to push stuff to its limits...ever sail a laser? bend masts, break tillers and rudders all the time

open class boats are basically planing laser hulls with outboard daggerboards and a long bulb keel...basically you can make a mini open 60 by modifying a laser to have dual rudders etc...rig some wires on outboard poles...etc...

in any case its far more common to have catastrophic failures on a race boat pushing limits mid ocean than mom an pop on a westail 32 out in the middle of the pacific doing an avergae of 5 knots!

me I like both...I still dream of buliding myself a mini pogo and do a solo transat or pac cup...but for now I plan to cruise...like I have done before.

just sayin

cheers

happy new year in advance

christian


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> They were designed to go as fast as possible shorthanded - period....Until something breaks, at which point they call for the Ozzie & AnZac Navies to come and rescue them...They are the counterpart to Top Fuel dragsters, not F1 cars.


Your vision about these boats and the comparative reliability of the boats that made the first Challenge around the world is not according with reality.

First of all these are racing boats and therefore the reliability is a compromise regarding weight and speed but they were not designed to "*to go as fast as possible shorthanded - period....Until something breaks, ...They are the counterpart to Top Fuel dragsters*" neither they are comparable to top fuel dragsters that are designed to make some hundreds of meters reaching top speed.

Both comparisons are completely off but the last one is plain ridiculous since these boats were designed to win a circumnavigating solo race without stops and no assistance. If you don't arrive you don't win and these boats were designed to do it and win. Quite the opposite as a concept regarding a dragster and even regarding the Paris-Dakar that you mentioned a much more extreme event demanding a much superior reliability.

In fact there are no racing car, including the ones from the Paris Dakar that could make a world tour without outside assistance. Even in what regards a much shorter event like the Paris Dakar, there is no racing car that can make it all the way without outside assistance.

Regarding numbers and reliability on the last Vendee Globe they were 20 and 11 have finished. From them three retired due to damage after collisions with fishing boats or metallic objects, one retired due to problems with the autopilot, another retired (but sailed the boat around the world) after being disqualified due to outside help (when is anchor dragged), two boats retired after having lost the keel another one with problems on the canting keel system and one after losing the mast. Only 4 boats retired with mast or keel problems.

Even if we count Jean Pierre that lost the keel but made thousands of miles without keel and finished the race, the boats that have problems with keels or masts represents 20%, during a circumnavigation race.

Nothing like what we can take from what you say about the reliability of these boats but nonetheless not acceptable neither for me neither for the designers, builders and racers and that's why they changed the rule to make mandatory standard masts and keels, that will not only be stronger but will provide more information to the designers to better them and make them more reliable.

This race cannot be compared, as you have done regarding Sayula II, with the Whitbread Round the World Race for many reasons, the first of them is that while on the Vendee Globe is a solo non stop race without outside help, the Whitbread was a crewed circumnavigation with *4 legs and outside help* and at the end of each leg they could have the boat repaired. Many boats would not have finished the race without repairs and without outside help. If that was a non stop race without outside help none of the two boats that won legs on the race would have finished it. One broke a mast once, the other twice.

Then Sayula II, that was a performance cruiser, not a racing boat only won the race in compensated time that is a thing that does not exist on the Vendee Globe where only real results count. Regarding real time, the Sayoula II was always very far away (several days) from the winners of any of the legs.

Regarding the condition of the boat at arrival the words of one of the crew (Butch Dalrymple-Smith) are very eloquent:

*"Although Sayula was well built, and survived the rigors of the race rather better than the others, she only just made it - the standing rigging was in tatters by the end....Finally, when we were certain of winning, I asked the owner, Ramon Carlin, if he would allow me to over-crank a runner and bring the mast down. That way we would finish sideways with the rig over the side, make headlines all over the world, and give the spectators something to tell their grandchildren. He actually thought about it for a long time before reluctantly saying 'no... because the yacht is not insured. "*

Finally in what regards boat's security even if the Vendee Globe is much more demanding, not only for being a non stop race but because it is a solo race, none has died on the last vendee while three were tragically lost on the Whitbread.

Dragstars? I don't think so

Regards

Paulo


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## nolatom

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Jaramaz said:


> Oh, and this about having to be rescued far far away. Risking others life, costly as well. Is this really an argument? Is it better with a 50 year old Swan? Or, any other kind of boat which for some reason starts to leak, hits something or whatever?
> Should we prohibit sailing over large distances? That would be the ultimate consequence of such an argument.
> 
> /J


Well, yes, it is really an argument. Your rescuers will ideally be fellow racers who nevertheless take a big risk doing it, but they are "in the game" so each racer is grateful if they can assist another, and typically get time-compensation for it, which is only fair.

But (as here) the containership crew were volunteers following "the best tradition of the sea" as the merchant sailor typically do, and at considerable cost to their companies in lost time, willingly undertaken by owners as well as crews. This is how AMVER works, and why most ships volunteer to be in it. The Open 60 crew here describe how they were getting smashed around on the Jacobs ladder, and *how the ships crew descended to help them nevertheless* Sometimes these rescue crews are injured or lost themselves, either physically or the whole ship can be lost as they stand by the distress vessel in worsening weather, and lose their own ship as a result (yes, it's happened, the MARINE ELECTRIC lost off the Virginia Capes in 1983, only three survivors).

It's a real risk to them. And the Coast Guard's (informal) motto at the rescue stations is, "you have to go out--you don't have to come back", and they didn't make it up out of thin air either. Yes, it's their job, but making them do it is not a zero-sum game. And as a matter of principle they do not charge money for it, even though sometimes it would seem (to me) more than fair to do so in the event of some particularly sketchy voyages.

And no, we shouldn't prohibit sailing long distances nor singlehanding, but nor should we be dismissive of the risk of rescuers, when going for "maximum" anything (speed, distance, endurance) out there. To me it borders on irresponsibility in *some* instances. I'm not sure this is one of them, I do tend to think this was an atypical failure (meaning hull vice rudder or rig, whose cause may never be known absent that hull to look at).

Full disclosure: I'm retired USCGR so I like them....


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## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



christian.hess said:


> ..ever sail a laser? bend masts, break tillers and rudders all the time christian


And the chase boat is right there to render assistance, you're not alone, 1000 miles offshore in bad weather - which is my whole point.


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> Yup, I'd happily take my chances with Bernard Stamm on his Open 60 in a winter storm in the Bay of Biscay, rather than with some comparatively geriatric Salty Dawgs of undetermined pedigree on a 30+ year old Out Island 41 in the Gulf Stream, during the passage of a strong cold front in November


I wouldn't do EITHER.

Oh, and a P.S. - I've never heard of an old OI 41 breaking in half in the Gulf Stream, November cold front or no.


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Dragstars? I don't think so Regards Paulo


Check out Top Fuel - that's exactly what those AC Cats are - insanely quick little spurts of speed under ideal conditions. Have to be virtually rebuilt every few minutes of run time. Any sort of failure results in an epic crash. Nothing about them translates to the rest of their world.....

It's a much closer match to Top Fuel than Formula One. I suspect you have the typical Euro attitude that drag racing is a very crude form of motorsport when the reality is that is is a very SPECIALIZED form of motorsport. The fuelers are extremely sophisticated in their own way - you don't get more than 10,000 horsepower out of an engine by being crude.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> And the chase boat is right there to render assistance, you're not alone, 1000 miles offshore in bad weather - which is my whole point.


????? can I know of what are you talking about?

I was talking about IMOCA boats not about Americas's cup cats

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Check out Top Fuel - that's exactly what those AC Cats are - insanely quick little spurts of speed under ideal conditions. Have to be virtually rebuilt every few minutes of run time. Any sort of failure results in an epic crash. Nothing about them translates to the rest of their world.........


Who is talking about cats? I only said that the American cup cats were the ones like F1 cars when you compared wrongly IMOCA boats with F1 cars.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Paulo, I never compared the Open boats to fuel dragsters, I compared the AC foiling cats to fuel dragsters.

If you want to regard the Open boats as the epitome of prudent seaworthiness, feel free.

This whole discussion is going nowhere so I'm out.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Paulo, I never compared the Open boats to fuel dragsters, I compared the AC foiling cats to fuel dragsters.
> 
> ....


Yes, you are right, my bad. You have compared Open boats (imoca) with F1 and AC foiling cats with dragsters.

Did not noticed but anyway the comparison is not accurate: a dragster goes straight ahead and just for some seconds. The AC cats go for a considerable time around a course with many different changes of direction. In fact F1 is a much fairer comparison, not only in what regards changes of direction around a course as well as in what regards racing time and top high technology.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## ccriders

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> And the chase boat is right there to render assistance, you're not alone, 1000 miles offshore in bad weather - which is my whole point.


When I organized bicycle races and rides the USCF and municipal government required me to have medical aid and ambulance service on sight. How is it that ocean racing (under ISAF?) does not carry the same burden?
John


----------



## miatapaul

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



ccriders said:


> When I organized bicycle races and rides the USCF and municipal government required me to have medical aid and ambulance service on sight. How is it that ocean racing (under ISAF?) does not carry the same burden?
> John


Well that would mean these guys were taking responsibility for there own actions. But this was not an organized race but a delivery back home from a race. Seems like there should be a lifetime limit to the number of times you can call on the Coast Guard, I think Bernard has reached his limit! Next time he should be billed.


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Rather than a lifetime limit on "freebies" the CG should be permitted to examine your state of preparedness and determine from that if you should have to pay.

If you are experienced and on a well found boat but run into problems - that's why they are there.

If you buy a San Juan 24 for $500 and set off across the Pacific - you pay full freight, plus a penalty.


----------



## christian.hess

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

what if that san juan was a marina derelict that was abandoned by an uninspired po owner..???

say it had new rigging, sails stowed inside an all it needed was bottom paint to be safe?

why would you penalize that boat?

I dont agree with that at all, after all before this 21 century and the nets...a 24 ft boat was considered mid size....and perfectly apt for ocean sailing...

plus in any case a san juan 24 is a speck mid ocean as is even a 1000foot cruise ship

I think if anything more focus should be on the skipper(as do many eu contries) and not the boat
after all even a measly san juan 24 is glass and we all know glass has yet to be determined how much REAL life span it has...

soooo with that said

carry on discussion

ps. I say this out os spite almost because for example my spanish captain that I sailed with almost 15k miles had to do sooooooooooooooooooooo much to even set sail, he had to be licensed by the spanish maritime academy only to be a pleasure captain....this just to set sail....

in the us and most western countries all you do is fix a boat and leave...many countries have extreme stringent laws to even aloow you to be on public waters...


----------



## kjango

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Can't wait for these boats to be declared unsafe so I can pick one up for cheap. Mile for mile I'm thinking these are the safest sailboats in the world.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Rather than a lifetime limit on "freebies" the CG should be permitted to examine your state of preparedness and determine from that if you should have to pay.
> 
> If you are experienced and on a well found boat but run into problems - that's why they are there.
> 
> If you buy a San Juan 24 for $500 and set off across the Pacific - you pay full freight, plus a penalty.


That is something I agree. But it would not make sense to examine each boat that goes offshore, so minimum mandatory requirements and regular inspections to evaluate the boat condition (one in each 4 years for instance) and occasional random inspections make all the sense.

Anyway in the case of Stamm's boat or Stamm's qualifications they would find nothing to object. He was not even sailing solo this time. Rare freak accidents due to hidden defects will always happen from time to time no matter the boat.

If you find worrying a boat like an Open 60 and a sailor like Stamm crossing the Atlantic Ocean, even with a gale, what do you say about these things being allowed to cross oceans or to circumnavigate?



Aren't they a much bigger risk in what regards the need of a rescue with the consequent endangerment of other lives?



christian.hess said:


> ...
> plus in any case a san juan 24 is a speck mid ocean as is even a 1000foot cruise ship
> ...
> ....


You are sayng that a Juan 24, or any other 24ft boat is as safe as a 1000ft cruise ship on an Ocean??????

Regarding most EU countries let me say that it is not the sailor that has to be qualified, or at least show that they are qualified to sail on an Ocean, the same happens with the boats that have to be certified class A but not only, they have to be equipped with the minimum safety equipment required for Ocean sailing. The boats are also mandatory inspected each 4 years ( I think that on a new one it takes longer to need an inspection and small variations happen from country to country). There are already an unified law in what regards boat requirements, not yet in what regards sailor qualifications.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



miatapaul said:


> Well that would mean these guys were taking responsibility for there own actions. But this was not an organized race but a delivery back home from a race. Seems like there should be a lifetime limit to the number of times you can call on the Coast Guard, I think Bernard has reached his limit! Next time he should be billed.


That poses the question to know if in what regards sailing activities were a rescue is more probable, like offshore long distance racing, should not be a mandatory collective insurance regarding rescue costs. Certainly the cost of that divided to all would not be too high and it would keep things straight, I mean the risk takers would pay for their safety and not all tax payers.

Risk takers paying for their safety should be the right principle. The alternative is to regulate what is acceptable in terms of risks regarding a rescue. I prefer the first alternative.

Rergards

Paulo


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> Yup, I'd happily take my chances with Bernard Stamm on his Open 60 in a winter storm in the Bay of Biscay, rather than with some comparatively geriatric Salty Dawgs of undetermined pedigree on a 30+ year old Out Island 41 in the Gulf Stream, during the passage of a strong cold front in November
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't do EITHER.
Click to expand...

So, because YOU wouldn't sail an OI 41 offshore to the Caribbean, does that mean that anyone who chooses to do so should be held responsible for reimbursing for the cost of their (potential) rescue?

What other boats would you add to your list? 

Seems like another slope that gets awfully slippery, awfully quickly, to me...



SloopJonB said:


> Oh, and a P.S. - I've never heard of an old OI 41 breaking in half in the Gulf Stream, November cold front or no.


Well, stick one in the middle of a Biscay winter storm, who knows?  The reports were that the bulkheads on that OI were "delaminating", and they were taking on water... Wanna take a guess on how much difficulty Bernard Stamm might have had out where they were that night? Mine would be that he might have considered it "fantastic sailing, with no need for the 'handbrake', yet..." 

Stamm has twice won RTW races, the Around Alone and Velux 5 Oceans, back to back... His record the Transatlantic record for monohulls stood for _TEN YEARS_. The guy is clearly one of the most accomplished solo sailors, ever...

The accomplishments of sailors like Slocum, Dumas, Knox-Johnston seem like far riskier ventures to what guys like Stamm are doing, today... K-J was the ONLY sailor to finish the first Golden Globe, and yet is universally respected for what is generally considered a heroic feat of seamanship, and was ultimately knighted for his accomplishments...

Do you really believe a 300-day go around on a boat like this, 35 years ago, was inherently safer than what today's generation of RTW racers are doing?


----------



## aeventyr60

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Yeah Paulo, ask the Australian coasties how many of your long distance racers have had to be rescued in the Southern Ocean and you might come up with a different answer on the insurance question and WHO is actually being rescued.....mostly the guys on the hi tech go fast, surely never to fail race boats....mostly Euro dudes too. Oh and a few ladies.


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



ccriders said:


> When I organized bicycle races and rides the USCF and municipal government required me to have medical aid and ambulance service on sight. How is it that ocean racing (under ISAF?) does not carry the same burden?
> John


Uhhh, maybe because there's just a _SLIGHT_ difference between following a herd of bicyclists on a public road in a motorized vehicle(s), and attempting to chase a fleet of racebboats spread out over tens of thousands of square miles of open ocean???



SloopJonB said:


> Rather than a lifetime limit on "freebies" the CG should be permitted to examine your state of preparedness and determine from that if you should have to pay.
> 
> If you are experienced and on a well found boat but run into problems - that's why they are there.
> 
> If you buy a San Juan 24 for $500 and set off across the Pacific - you pay full freight, plus a penalty.


So, how would that work, say, in the example of the OI 41 abandoned in the Salty Dawg Rally?

A CG rescue swimmer, who jumps into the ocean in the middle of the night, but never sets foot aboard the boat, is also charged with 'evaluating" the condition/state of preparedness of the yacht?

Hmmm, perhaps we on various internet sailing forums could serve a the 'Jury of One's Peers' when these cases are brought up for evaluation? 

You do realize that the USCG already has the authority do declare any voyage "Manifestly Unsafe", and prohibit departure, or 'force' a vessel underway to be abandoned, right?

And yet, it is a power that is VERY rarely exercised... A classic recent example is that of the RAW FAITH, which finally went down off Cape Cod a few years ago... That piece of crap sat under the CG's nose in Rockland for _years_, embarking on several false starts which either failed, or required rescue, and yet they never did anything to prevent that moron from trying again...

Maine-built ship Raw Faith sinks off Cape Cod coast ? Midcoast ? Bangor Daily News ? BDN Maine


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



aeventyr60 said:


> Yeah Paulo, ask the Australian coasties how many of your long distance racers have had to be rescued in the Southern Ocean and you might come up with a different answer on the insurance question and WHO is actually being rescued.....mostly the guys on the hi tech go fast, surely never to fail race boats....mostly Euro dudes too. Oh and a few ladies.





PCP said:


> That poses the question to know if in what regards sailing activities were a rescue is more probable, like offshore long distance racing, should not be a mandatory collective insurance regarding rescue costs. Certainly the cost of that divided to all would not be too high and it would keep things straight, I mean the risk takers would pay for their safety and not all tax payers.
> 
> Risk takers paying for their safety should be the right principle. The alternative is to regulate what is acceptable in terms of risks regarding a rescue. I prefer the first alternative.
> 
> ..


You mean Australian tax payers like to pay for the rescue of European sail racers?

Read again what I said. I said that it should be the racers and the organization to pay for the rescues trough a mandatory insurance as well as all that push the risk envelope beyond the reasonable.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Found some interesting stats on the Vendee races.

Since it began there have been 138 total entries

DNFs amounted to the following;

18 rig failures.
14 miscellaneous - from medical issues to DSQ for receiving assistance.
11 rudder failures
9 keel failures
6 capsizes
3 lost at sea
3 went ashore
2 hull failures

That's a 48% DNF rate, 36% due to catastrophic equipment failure of one sort or another (assuming the capsizes & lost at sea were due to equipment failure).

You can draw your own conclusions but to my mind that list does not indicate a bunch of strong & seaworthy boats.

It looks more like a typical NASCAR race.

Details here Vendée Globe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Found some interesting stats on the Vendee races.
> 
> Since it began there have been 138 total entries
> 
> DNFs amounted to the following;
> 
> 18 rig failures.
> 14 miscellaneous - from medical issues to DSQ for receiving assistance.
> 11 rudder failures
> 9 keel failures
> 6 capsizes
> 3 lost at sea
> 3 went ashore
> 2 hull failures
> 
> That's a 48% DNF rate, 36% due to catastrophic equipment failure of one sort or another (assuming the capsizes & lost at sea were due to equipment failure).
> 
> You can draw your own conclusions but to my mind that list does not indicate a bunch of strong & seaworthy boats.
> 
> It looks more like a typical NASCAR race.
> 
> Details here Vendée Globe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Not exactly shining examples of successful design, are they?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." ---Richard Feynman


----------



## Dog Ship

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

When I first started sailing some 45 years ago a very old sailor told me , "Never underestimate the power of the sea".


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Dog Ship said:


> When I first started sailing some 45 years ago a very old sailor told me , "Never underestimate the power of the sea".


Excellent advice...

Although, I suspect there are few people on earth _less likely_ to underestimate the power of the sea, than a professional veteran of multiple Southern Ocean solo circumnavigations...






Seems a bit like reminding a Formula One driver, or a World Cup Downhill Racer, about the dangers of speed...


----------



## ccriders

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> Uhhh, maybe because there's just a _SLIGHT_ difference between following a herd of bicyclists on a public road in a motorized vehicle(s), and attempting to chase a fleet of racebboats spread out over tens of thousands of square miles of open]


Ok, so my point is:
race organizers are responsible to provide a safe venue,
Inspect equipment for compliance with design requirements and maintenance,
Sort competitors into skill/experience classes,
Control the race course, 
Referee the event,
And provide emergency medical aid.
That is what the USCF requires.
Municipalities provide on a reimbursable basis police and ambulance service.
All of this is paid for from entry fees and sponsor contributions.

If your argument is that it is not easy or is too expensive to provide this level of race support, then maybe ocean racing should not be allowed. 
If your argument is that it is not feasible, then take a look at the ocean fishing fleets to see how they locate and descend upon a school of fish and take almost every last one of them from the water. With satellite communication and tracking, boats that carry air craft, etc., etc. keeping track of and rescuing competitors is not impossible, just expensive, an expense organizers, sponsors and competitors are willing to transfer to others.
Also, mentioned earlier was the unfeasibility of inspecting all boats, yet we do that for automobiles, for not so much cost to the owner. Odds are that if race consortiums had to pay for rescues resulting from equipment failures (keels that fall off, rudders that break away, masts that fall down, etc.,) sailboat design would benefit greatly and result in fast and safe boats.
John


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Found some interesting stats on the Vendee races.
> 
> Since it began there have been 138 total entries
> 
> DNFs amounted to the following;
> 
> 18 rig failures.
> 14 miscellaneous - from medical issues to DSQ for receiving assistance.
> 11 rudder failures
> 9 keel failures
> 6 capsizes
> 3 lost at sea
> 3 went ashore
> 2 hull failures
> 
> That's a 48% DNF rate, 36% due to catastrophic equipment failure of one sort or another (assuming the capsizes & lost at sea were due to equipment failure).
> 
> You can draw your own conclusions but to my mind that list does not indicate a bunch of strong & seaworthy boats.
> 
> It looks more like a typical NASCAR race.
> 
> Details here Vendée Globe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You give me a lot of work. You could get your data analysis straight. Having look carefully at the data provided on the link you posted and looking and searching in another places for missing information, considering only boat failures related with that type of boat the number is not 36% but *31.9%*.

You are assuming wrongly that lost on sea has to do with boat failure. Normally it means only that the skipper went overboard, a problem more common on the old days then now, when many maneuvers implied going out of the cockpit.

I considering all problems related directly with this type of boat (breakage of masts, booms, broken rudders, capsizes , keel problems, hull problems) and disregarded abandons that had nothing to do with the boat (health problems, going overboard, groundings, collisions with other boats) or with systems that are used in all boats like automatic pilot, electrical problems, sail problems. I did not count also a boat damage while Marc was trying to rescue another competitor (the boat was damaged by a collision with the capsized boat).

But even so that percentage is not fair that is not fair because those boats have being continually bettered not only in speed but also in seaworthiness and reliability. What counts are the numbers related with the last generation of Open 60's, the ones we are talking about, Stamm's boat.

Regarding that and the last Vendee Globe, considering the same criteria the percentage of boats that have abandoned due to problems related with that particular boat design was *20%*

Comparing what it is comparable and looking at the only solo non-stop circumnavigations race made with no racing boats, the type of old shoes you seem to consider more reliable, on the 1968-1969 race the percentage of boats that have abandoned was *88,8%*

You seem not to understand the number of things that can go wrong on a solo circumnavigation. Take for instance the famous grand mother Socrates that have tried several times in her Najad,to circumnavigate solo non-stop and have to satisfy herself with one circumnavigation with a stop for repairing the boat, or that one on an older boat (certainly one that you like) that has been object of a recent thread. He had to stop for repair the rigging.

http://www.oceannavigator.com/March-April-2012/Socrates-third-circumnavigation-attempt/

http://www.svnereida.com/

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...eld-forced-turn-back-due-rigging-failure.html

A 20% boat failure taking into consideration that, contrary to the Grand Ma and the other guy, these ones push their boats near the limit, is a fantastic performance that, off course, will be bettered on the next race and with better, faster and more reliable boats. Off course,If the boats on the Vendee Globe were not pushed hard and were just used as cruising boats the breakage would be obviously be much smaller and their reliability even better.

Do you think I am crazy and that type of boats are not used for cruising? Think again, there are several fast offshore cruisers that take as model these boats (not to mention the huge influence on most modern cruisers in what regards hull design). Take a look at this onel:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## Brent Swain

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Looks like the sea floor rising rapidly there. That may have had something to do with the sea conditions, as could the first sign of current coming out of the channel.
Shows how marginally designed these, "designed by the worlds top experts " boats are. Looks downright fragile, something no cruiser would accept. This is a clear example of why cruisers should avoid like the plague, the gear designed for racing.


----------



## Dog Ship

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> Excellent advice...
> 
> Although, I suspect there are few people on earth _less likely_ to underestimate the power of the sea, than a professional veteran of multiple Southern Ocean solo circumnavigations...
> 
> Vendée Globe 2012 - Week 5 Highlights - YouTube
> 
> Seems a bit like reminding a Formula One driver, or a World Cup Downhill Racer, about the dangers of speed...


Point taken, 
but at the time I was 7 years old rigging up my sabot to go out on a pretty nasty day. 
It was advice that has stuck with me regarding everything I do, whether it be on the water or working on my boat.
I have also never had to be rescued.........yet.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



ccriders said:


> If your argument is that it is not easy or is too expensive to provide this level of race support, then maybe ocean racing should not be allowed.
> 
> ... keeping track of and rescuing competitors is not impossible, just expensive, an expense organizers, sponsors and competitors are willing to transfer to others.
> Also, mentioned earlier was the unfeasibility of inspecting all boats, yet we do that for automobiles, for not so much cost to the owner. Odds are that if race consortiums had to pay for rescues resulting from equipment failures (keels that fall off, rudders that break away, masts that fall down, etc.,) sailboat design would benefit greatly and result in fast and safe boats.
> John


Race organizers keep track of the boats and inspect the mandatory safety equipment. On serious races, like the vendee globe the boats are inspected to see if they are according to the rules in what regards safety and other aspects. The IMOCA and the 40class offshore racers have hugely demanding safety requirements. They are obliged to show if the boat can be returned to its feet in a flat sea. No cruising boat is able to do that or would be able to pass the safety requirements they demand on those boats.






They are also unthinkable. Even broken in two, an unheard extreme case, Stamm's boat keep floating by many hours.

I agree with you regarding the need to inspect offshore boats but not only racing boats, all of them. You seem to be convinced that the rescue of boats on offshore races is the more important percentage of offshore rescues but that is not the case. They are just a very small percentage even if the ones that make the main news.

You seem also not knowing that almost all major hull, rig, keel and rudder as well as building techniques, all developments that make boat design advance come basically from the racing field, were they are tested before being used to make improved cruising sailboats. Solo offshore racing boats have been the major source of developments for cruising boats in the last 30 years. The fact that the boats are hugely powerful and have to be tamed by a solo sailor helped to develop hulls, rigs and furling systems that today are common on our boats, making boats easier to sail and allowing sailors to solo sail (or sail with a wife) bigger safer boats.

When you see today most people offshore in boats bigger than 45ft with a small crew, you owe that possibility to the developments brought by this type of racing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



ccriders said:


> Ok, so my point is:
> race organizers are responsible to provide a safe venue,
> Inspect equipment for compliance with design requirements and maintenance,
> Sort competitors into skill/experience classes,
> Control the race course,
> Referee the event,
> And provide emergency medical aid.
> That is what the USCF requires.
> Municipalities provide on a reimbursable basis police and ambulance service.
> All of this is paid for from entry fees and sponsor contributions.
> 
> *If your argument is that it is not easy or is too expensive to provide this level of race support, then maybe ocean racing should not be allowed. *


Wow... 

They've been sailing the biennial Newport-Bermuda Race for over a century, now - and it has NEVER been safer than it is today... But, because the CCA and RBYC cannot supply a fleet of ambulance/hospital ships to trail the fleet, or "control the race course" over the 635 miles between Newport and Bermuda, we should consider "No Longer Allowing" such a competition??? Seriously???



> Over the past 100 years, some 4,500 boats and 46,000 men and women have raced to Bermuda. Founder Tom Day identified the reason so many men and women sail when he said that they are seizing the opportunity "to get a smell of the sea and forget for the time being that there is such a thing as God's green earth in the universe."


The late, great Carleton Mitchell sailed his fat little centerboarder FINISTERRE to 3 consecutive overall wins in the Bermuda classic... I'm guessing those low lifelines would just be one of her numerous features that wouldn't pass today's ISAF muster...

Good thing Mitchell's ashes were scattered in the Gulf Stream off Miami, otherwise he'd be turning over in his grave, assuming he had access to Sailnet...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Check out Top Fuel - that's exactly what those AC Cats are - insanely quick little spurts of speed under ideal conditions. Have to be virtually rebuilt every few minutes of run time. Any sort of failure results in an epic crash. Nothing about them translates to the rest of their world.....
> 
> It's a much closer match to Top Fuel than Formula One. I suspect you have the typical Euro attitude that drag racing is a very crude form of motorsport when the reality is that is is a very SPECIALIZED form of motorsport. The fuelers are extremely sophisticated in their own way - you don't get more than 10,000 horsepower out of an engine by being crude.


Yes, Drag racing is crude. Who cares about brute power? Around here we care about skill.

But since you like Dragsters, just for you, have a look at a sail dragster






Regards

Paulo


----------



## ccriders

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Context Jon. 
Safety can be done. But who pays when problems arise?
These practices (boats having catastrophic failures) may lead to direct charges for all rescues if something doesn't change. The Feds are just beginning to tighten the belt and who knows where budget cuts are going? Inshore sailors are already financially responsible for towing, and if their boat sinks or washes ashore, the environmental clean up costs. 
Ocean racing may be the last bastion of the Wild West, and that's fine. But who pays for their rescues and how do the payers benefit? Trickle down technology to the lesser mortals that just want to go out cruising?
Ocean racing needs to be responsible for it's events.
And Paolo, don't you see that you can build a boat that puts too much strain on itself and its crew? The whole shebang has to hang together in the toughest situations and cross the finish line to be of value. Otherwise it's just more junk fouling the ocean. And maybe a body or two.
John


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



ccriders said:


> ..
> ...
> Ocean racing may be the last bastion of the Wild West, and that's fine. But who pays for their rescues and how do the payers benefit? Trickle down technology to the lesser mortals that just want to go out cruising?
> Ocean racing needs to be responsible for it's events.
> And Paolo, don't you see that you can build a boat that puts too much strain on itself and its crew? The whole shebang has to hang together in the toughest situations and cross the finish line to be of value. Otherwise it's just more junk fouling the ocean. And maybe a body or two.
> John


you seem not to listen:

*Racing offshore rescues are a tiny percentage of offshore rescues.* The vast majority are just badly prepared cruisers or badly prepared boats, mostly old cruiser boats.

I have told you that the percentage of retirements due to boat breakage on the last solo circumnavigation race without assistance was 20%. They were racing and pushing the boats the way Jon showed on that video.

If they were sailing without pressure and at a more reasonable pace what would be the breakage? half of that?: 10% and if they were sailing just a bit over the speed of a normal cruising boat what would be the breakage? 5%?.

Take a look at normal cruising boats that are doing circumnavigations and see how many times they have to stop for making small repairs...or big repairs. Each of those stops would be the equivalent of an abandon on a non stop circumnavigation.

Making a circumnavigation without stop in any boat is a major accomplishment for the boat and for the material. Making one racing many times over 20K and have a retirement tax of 20% due to boat breakage is incredibly good...but not enough for them because to win they have to arrive and they want all to arrive: tomorrow offshore racing boats will be not only faster but also safer, as it have been happening through the years.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



ccriders said:


> Context Jon.
> Safety can be done. But who pays when problems arise?
> These practices (boats having catastrophic failures) may lead to direct charges for all rescues if something doesn't change. The Feds are just beginning to tighten the belt and who knows where budget cuts are going? Inshore sailors are already financially responsible for towing, and if their boat sinks or washes ashore, the environmental clean up costs.
> Ocean racing may be the last bastion of the Wild West, and that's fine. But who pays for their rescues and how do the payers benefit? Trickle down technology to the lesser mortals that just want to go out cruising?
> Ocean racing needs to be responsible for it's events.


Well, then - wanna compare the number of USCG SAR missions/abandonments involving offshore racers, and those involving independent, individual recreational sailors over the past decade, or two?

I don't have the numbers, but I suspect it's not even close...


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Whatever the percentage of failures, one-of-three or one-of-five, it is too high by several orders of magnitude. How many of these boat designers have been on the Ocean when it's up on its hind legs, with a gale howling like a Banshee and shredding the tops off the waves, the wind and water clawing at the boat like wild things, probing for weakness?

Pioneer aviator Antoine de Saint Exupéry said "It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Maybe the designers have taken too much away.

It seems the designers of these


> probably the safest and strongest sailboats around


 "high-performance" racing boats are hoping that they can get away with shaving off a few more kilograms of hull in hopes of gaining an extra meter-per-hour of speed while hoping the crew can avoid conditions that stress the boat beyond its limits.

Hope is not a plan.

Yes, there are fantastic new materials available, lighter, stronger, more resilient, et cetera ad nauseum. The Sea is still the Sea, and the designers have to design their boats to meet the worst she can dish out, not hope they never need the strength required to survive that worst, else they put the boats' crews and rescue crews at risk needlessly.

A 20% -- or even 10% --failure rate doesn't cut it. How much would you fly if 'only' one percent of airliners were likely to fall out of the sky? How much driving if 'only' five percent of automobiles were subject to catastrophic failure?


----------



## christian.hess

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

context to all posters here...its not just the design of the boat its because you are pushing said boat to its limits...you can do this on ANY boat

all boats have a weak point....there is no be it ALL sailboat

simple


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> Whatever the percentage of failures, one-of-three or one-of-five, it is too high by several orders of magnitude. How many of these boat designers have been on the Ocean when it's up on its hind legs, with a gale howling like a Banshee and shredding the tops off the waves, the wind and water clawing at the boat like wild things, probing for weakness?
> ...


Obviously you don't know about the designers of those boats. some of them are very experienced offshore sailors, some even were offshore racers.

Funny that you consider that 20% in retirements due to boat problems is too much for a solo non-stop solo racing circumnavigation. I guess you don't imagine how hard is the material pushed over a solo circumnavigation that will represent* more miles than most cruising boats will do during their entire life time*

Have a look at the ones that tried to circumnavigate non stop solo in cruising boats and you will see that the percentage of retirement is worse than that...and they were not racing, just trying to do it.

Besides one thing is to have to abandon the race for several boat problems other thing is not being able to sail the damaged boat back to port and to need to call for a rescue.

*Do you know that on the last vendee Globe only one sailor had called for help and was rescued?* and that all the others that retired sailed their own boats to port? Some even to the base port?

That make 1 in 20 or if you want in percentage 5% in what regards the need of a rescue.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## ccriders

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

We seem to be getting arguments for the sake of arguing. Jon and Paulo can you distill you position in the context of "Wow, a 60 ft sailboat broke in half while sailing down wind in 45+/- kts of wind with storm jib and quadruple reefed main"? The context summed up beautifully by "Too much engineering, too little boat"

The inversion test means nothing - no mast, no sails, no wind, no waves, no crew. How did the boat perform in the real world? It broke in half and sank leaving its crew to a very iffy, expensive rescue.

Ocean race organizers are not responsible for the events that unfold, yet governments around the world are? Really?

Comparisons with people out cruising suffering equipment failures and encountering storms is a red herring just as you would not compare F-1 auto racing with the summer vacation in the old station wagon. 
Also, remember that all these statistical swaps suffer from the tyranny of small numbers.
John


----------



## christian.hess

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

the inversion test is just to verify that when upside down the skipper has air pockets, that it will remain at a certain angle, etc...also that the boat itself will not sink completely.

the air pockets have been vital in saving some famous sailors...

I clearly remember reading a bit about this, some big catamaran too that flipped mid ocean and all crew stayed trapped inside waiting for help while they took turns signaling from the overturned amas...

didnt autissier do this too? cant remeber...

its a test that while not completely conclusive DOES add a major of known safety

again I stress that any design can be pushed to its limits...its not so much the design(yes there are faulty designs out there we all know that, BUT) any boat when pushed to its limits by sailors who cut there TOOTHBRUSHES IN HALF to save weight for example you multiply your chances of failure in some way by a million percent

anybody who argues this has never raced or been around race boats or anything race like

not for sake of argument but for reality sake.

they say speed kills right, well take that saying loosely and apply it to a boat, mid ocean...racing...NON STOP

is it the same hitting a rock at 5 knots or 30? is it the same plowing your bow into the next wave ahead of you because you are going faster than the waves or is it safer to be plowed from behind?

sorry that sounds weird but think about it...

anywhoo


----------



## outbound

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Paulo- in another thread to paraphrase you "performance cruisers/racers will never understand cruisers" and the contrapositive. Think this thread suggests that truth. 
Us cruisers have much of our material worth tied up in our vessels. We are interested in in getting there in one piece ( both our boats and ourselves). You say these boats continue to sail in what we would consider survival circumstances. We would throw out the jsd and put the saloon cushions on the sole and wait it out. You say these boats do untold miles before being retired. Our boats do decades of cruising with maintenance as time and money allow. You say these boats do 20kts. Before building my boat I had my bride cruise on a multi and did 20+kts. She said "never again".
You are right it is a different paradigm. I still find great joy in doing 200nm days on my boat but also find joy in the comforts of a solid cruising boat allowing the activities of daily living to be done without stress in a seaway. For many the need to minimize weight, maximize vigilance, degrade the ride and not include creature comforts degrades rather then enhances the experience. Jimmy repeats what Bob has said elsewhere "Weight is the enemy of speed". Jon notes these boats do what they can to decrease weight. Weight means additional structure. Additional structure means opportunity for additional strength. As availability of new materials or better use of existing materials has been increasing you are right race boats get stronger and safer. But Jon is right there is a point at which either due to expense, ease of maintenance, need for higher levels of vigilance, or degradation of comfort race boat advances have no useful meaning to cruisers. Yes that old Swan is a remarkable boat as are the new Swans incorporating more modern materials. Yes these racers are remarkable people taking their lives in their hands when they cast off. But Jon point is equally valid us cruisers don't want to take our lives in our hands when we cast off. 
I think all these organized races should require all entries to contribute to a pit fund. In other words self insure. That way when any entity be it a government or ship is involved in SAR they would have funds available for re imbursement.
I also think getting on any boat and doing any passage with the expectation of any catastrophic failure rate is beyond my comprehension. Think these guys are the highest level of sailors well beyond the AC crowd and fully deserve to be the heroes that the people of France view them as.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



outbound said:


> ...
> I think all these organized races should require all entries to contribute to a pit fund. In other words self insure. That way when any entity be it a government or ship is involved in SAR they would have funds available for re imbursement.
> ,,,


Hummm... these Vendee Globe guys with 20 boats circled the planet making an incredible number of miles on the worst seas of the planet and only one of them called for a rescue while on that recent cruiser rally near the American coast (just some few thousands of miles) three or four cruising boats called for a rescue and you think these racers should have a self insurance in what regards rescue?

I do not disagree but it seems obviously that should extend to all that go offshore according with the risks they are taking.

On the last two more radical races, the VOR and the Vendee globe only one boat called for help and was not able to reach port by its own means.

I have been following the Coast guards rescue calls and only on the last months they have been out offshore 10 times or more for the rescue of cruisers, many that seem badly prepared for what they are attempting or are sailing old boats in bad condition.

So yes, I agree, tax payers should not pay for the rescue of boaters that are there not for need but for choice and pleasure.

It should not be difficult for the insurance companies to do an insurance to cover rescue costs as I am quite sure they would be able to evaluate correctly what are the boats that are more vulnerable in what regards the need for a rescue, what seasons, what waters and what sailing experience the skipper has and charge prices accordingly with that.

I agree with you, it seems more than fair to me

It would also prevent crazy guys to go with unsuitable boats offshore because or they would not be insurable or they will pay so much that they will think twice before doing something as risky.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

in the last vendee globe only a single rescue operation had to be carried out...
and this although out of 20 only 11 finished the race... how comes?
safran had to abandon the race within the first 48 hrs with a broken keel
maitre coq abandoned with a broken keel ram
2 boats had collisions and abandoned subsequently
prb ran into a harbor buoy 400 nm off the coast damaging the hull an outrigger shroud
saveol got dismasted
energa had electrical and autopilot issues
ceminesee poujolant was simply disqualified for receiving assistance
acciona capsized with a broken keel and bubi sanso was thrown overboard in that capsize resulting in the only rescue operation!
from the 6 boats with serious breakage only one needed help from outside, all the other brought their stricken boats to a safe heavens harbor AND *jp dick finished the race with a broken keel!*
all of these boats can stand even some severe breakage and bring you safe home - can one say that from his old cruiser?

to all here who think that this racing crafts are inherently flawed only resulting in costly rescuing operations and probably should be prohibited... do not follow the races and stick to some cruising magazines instead.


----------



## ccriders

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

By your own citation, the keels on these boats are vulnerable, are the product of design seeking ultimate speed and apparently exceed the engineering and manufacturing capabilities of present technology. In my mind to attempt an ocean race on such a design is rash, negligent. As is the cruiser who goes to sea in an ill prepared boat. 
I'll use another bicycle analogy. As bicycle engineers sought ever lighter bicycles we saw sprinters who literally ripped the bottom brackets off the bike and wheels with so few spokes and thin rims they collapsed. Such incidents became so commonplace that the UCI issued a rule that a bike could not weigh less than 16 pounds and have wheels of at least 14 spokes (I believe I'm quoting this correctly). 
So, there is one racing organization that recognized that pushing the technology envelop presents hazards. Why not ocean race organizations? I think most of the people here were thrilled by the performance parameters of the AC catamarans, but were appalled to see one of them floating upside down out under the Golden Gate Bridge in relatively benign conditions and would ask; what price are we willing to pay to advance the state of the art? Especially the price of rescue at sea.
I hope you will excuse me the bicycle analogies. I believe they are relevant.
John


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



capt vimes said:


> {snip}
> 
> all of these boats can stand even some severe breakage and bring you safe home - can one say that from his old cruiser?


Considering the number of abandoned boats that wash up on a beach or are found still afloat hundreds or thousands of mile from where they were abandoned, I'd say probably yes.



pcp said:


> Obviously you don't know about the designers of those boats. some of them are very experienced offshore sailors, some even were offshore racers.


Then they should know what kind of conditions their boats & crews will have to survive, and design accordingly.



pcp said:


> That make 1 in 20 or if you want in percentage 5% in what regards the need of a rescue.


I'm not discussing rescue calls, I'm talking about castastrophic failures in boats *designed for these conditions*. What would you think of your car if, every time you drove it, there was a one-in-twenty (5%) chance of the engine exploding, or the steering gear disintegrating, or the transmission falling out, or all four wheels falling off?



pcp said:


> Funny that you consider that 20% in retirements due to boat problems is too much for a solo non-stop solo racing circumnavigation. I guess you don't imagine how hard is the material pushed over a solo circumnavigation that will represent* more miles than most cruising boats will do during their entire life time.*


These boats are ostensibly designed & built specifically for these cruises, so they should be able to survive one without breaking.

I understand and respect the power of the Sea - it can overwhelm anything we send out on it, at any time. Mankind cannot 'conquer' or 'control' it, we can only learn what it takes to survive there and apply that knowledge to our advantage.

I see three possible causes of failure: material, design and crew.

Unless a builder cheaps out & uses substandard materials or construction techniques, it seems unlikely that losing a rudder or keel, for example, is due to material failure. Given what these gizmos cost, I would expect top-quality components assembled by top-notch technicians. The same applies to any pre-race preparations, refurbishment and repairs. No blaming some slacker in the rigging crew for the mast coming down.

The crew are supposed to be experienced professionals, capable of judging how fast and how hard they can push their boat, and with a good idea of where the boundaries of the envelope are. In the best case, they have been involved in the design & construction of the boat from the beginning.

No design can overcome accidents like collision or lightning strikes, though some things can increase survivability. Losing a rudder, the mast coming down, losing a keel!?! -- on boats that are as pedigreed and pampered as a champion race horse -- not what you'd expect. Either someone is really slacking in the maintenance department, or there are yet-to-be-addressed problems in either design or construction.


----------



## outbound

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Paulo- thought your prior post neglects some germaine points:

I'm an American and I pay taxes which support my Coast Guard. I suspect this is also true for the sailors in the recent SDR. We are co insuring ourselves- even the those unlike the SDR folks making foolish voyages.
Governments, like yacht clubs, have what amounts to reciprocality . I'll save your folks you save mine. I love the Azores and Portugal. I'm sure to spend too much money next time I'm there ( grin).
When I cruise in foreign waters I stop on occasion to provision, sight see, refit, and go to local bars/restaurants. In short, I spend money supporting the local economy.
None of this applies to these racers. I thought the whole point was to race around the world without stopping and with no outside help. In other words they, like us, may need SAR services but they give back nothing. That's why I was specific and suggested a pit fund for this and similar races.


----------



## Minnesail

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> What would you think of your car if, every time you drove it, there was a one-in-twenty (5%) chance of the engine exploding, or the steering gear disintegrating, or the transmission falling out, or all four wheels falling off?


Say what you will, those late 70s Jaguars are beautiful cars.


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## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Minnesail said:


> Say what you will, those late 70s Jaguars are beautiful cars.


He wasn't talking about old Jags - they have a 50/50 chance of those things happening.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



ccriders said:


> ... In my mind to attempt an ocean race on such a design is rash, negligent. ...
> So, there is one racing organization that recognized that pushing the technology envelop presents hazards. ... Especially the price of rescue at sea.


Again, there was a single rescue on this race performed by the the Portuguese Air Force. The number of sail racers that are rescued every year by the Portuguese rescue teams, in the considerable part of the North Atlantic that is their responsibility, are a very small percentage compared with cruisers and fishing boats rescued.

It seems that you don't understand racing or the role it plays in sailboat design. Those boats are among the most seaworthy, if not the most seaworthy racing boats around, considering that they have to pass at very high latitudes and face very bad weather on a solo non stop circumnavigation.

Pushing any racing technology represents hazards and risks, controllable ones, that's true for sail racing or car/motorbike racing. It is on the racing field that new technologies and materials are tested and perfected to the point of reliability that allows them to be used on cruising boats, road cars and bikes, making them better and safer machines.

sail racing had always have a big importance in what regards the development of better and safer cruising boats. this type of boat, Solo racers are the ones that in the last 30 years more have contributed for the advancement of systems, rigs, keels and hulls that are now used on modern designed cruising boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Paulo, I think everyone understands about racing pushing things along.

*You* don't seem to understand the point of the naysayers - me included - that far offshore in the worst conditions imaginable is NOT the place to be doing that "pushing".

Those latitudes and conditions are the exact place that one should be utilizing the most tested & proven designs, materials and construction methods.

Pushing the envelope should be reserved for inshore, like the AC cats, until it HAS been proven.

If headsail furling had just been invented, would you regard the Vendee as the appropriate place to test it?


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



outbound said:


> ...
> 
> I'm an American and I pay taxes which support my Coast Guard. I suspect this is also true for the sailors in the recent SDR. We are co insuring ourselves- even the those unlike the SDR folks making foolish voyages.
> ....
> When I cruise in foreign waters I stop on occasion to provision, sight see, refit, and go to local bars/restaurants. In short, I spend money supporting the local economy.
> *None of this applies to these racers*. I thought the whole point was to race around the world without stopping and with no outside help. In other words they, like us, may need SAR services but they give back nothing. That's why I was specific and suggested a pit fund for this and similar races.


You are talking as if the vendee globe was one of the amateur races in the USA.

Regarding economy it has an world wide repercussion and the revenue of the last race was huge, only in media 200 million USD.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## outbound

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

All the more reason they should self insure for SAR. Thank you for making my point.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



outbound said:


> All the more reason they should self insure for SAR. Thank you for making my point.


The point is that they contribute incomparable more to the world economy than cruisers and that was your point, or lack of it.

I do not object on an insurance that covers and pays rescue costs but it seems to me that it only makes sense for all that sail offshore for pleasure. Let the insurance company find out if a racing boat has more risks to be rescued than an old boat in bad shape or one unsuited for the sea conditions it will risk to find. They are pretty good in not losing money and getting that kind of things right.

Regarding the money you pay for tax, it is for services provided by the state for the common good, not for providing rescues to pleasure activities, particularly one that is practiced by a tiny percentage of the population: Offshore sailing.

The ones that sail offshore are a tiny minority regarding the population that pay tax. Why all should pay for your pleasure activities, namely for a rescue? Rescues for fishermen, shipping and other commercial sea activities that take place offshore should be provided by the state but rescues paid by the tax payers for all that indulge in unnecessary leisure activities no matter the risk taken? I don't think so.

Cruising and amateur racing are both on that group of leisure activities. Serious racing can be considered differently since it is a commercial activity that brings big revenues, including to the state. See for instance the AC cup in what regards California.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## pdqaltair

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> You are talking as if the vendee globe was one of the amateur races in the USA.
> 
> Regarding economy it has an world wide repercussion and the revenue of the last race was huge, only in media 200 million USD.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Keep it up Paulo, we're rooting for you.

Personally, I can't imagine a world where people didn't push limits in every endeavor. Some I participate in (ice climbing), others I only watch (extreme sailing), some I couldn't care less about (auto racing). But I'm glad these people exist and are free to adventure.

A fund to cover rescue costs? That is an interesting idea, though working out the details is a mess. I'm not sure the racers are at greater risk than many less competitive fools; we sure get a lot of recreational rescues due to shear stupidity.


----------



## miatapaul

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> I'm not discussing rescue calls, I'm talking about castastrophic failures in boats *designed for these conditions*. What would you think of your car if, every time you drove it, there was a one-in-twenty (5%) chance of the engine exploding, or the steering gear disintegrating, or the transmission falling out, or all four wheels falling off?


Yea, I got tired of that too, so I stopped driving British sports cars, of course it took me a few times to learn my lesson! One car that I drove for 4 years never went more than 500 miles between breakdowns and I drove it for about a year without a starter!


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



> Originally Postedby *Minnesail *
> Say what you will, those late 70s Jaguars are beautiful cars.





SloopJonB said:


> He wasn't talking about old Jags - they have a 50/50 chance of those things happening.


Maybe so, but wouldn't one look great in the driveway!


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



ccriders said:


> By your own citation, the keels on these boats are vulnerable, are the product of design seeking ultimate speed and apparently exceed the engineering and manufacturing capabilities of present technology. In my mind to attempt an ocean race on such a design is rash, negligent. As is the cruiser who goes to sea in an ill prepared boat.
> I'll use another bicycle analogy. As bicycle engineers sought ever lighter bicycles we saw sprinters who literally ripped the bottom brackets off the bike and wheels with so few spokes and thin rims they collapsed. Such incidents became so commonplace that the UCI issued a rule that a bike could not weigh less than 16 pounds and have wheels of at least 14 spokes (I believe I'm quoting this correctly).
> So, there is one racing organization that recognized that pushing the technology envelop presents hazards. Why not ocean race organizations? I think most of the people here were thrilled by the performance parameters of the AC catamarans, but were appalled to see one of them floating upside down out under the Golden Gate Bridge in relatively benign conditions and would ask; what price are we willing to pay to advance the state of the art? Especially the price of rescue at sea.
> I hope you will excuse me the bicycle analogies. I believe they are relevant.
> John


They are not - sorry...
Do not come with the bleeding UCI regulations from 2000...
What this organisition was about, is protecting the - at that time predominated italian manifactures from getting overrun by other countries...
Is it really in the meaning of advancing bycicle development by allowing only a diamont frame?
No disc brakes for street bikes?

What i have standing here beside me is a Trek Y66... And if i would have found a Zipp, i would have payed almost any price... Those bikes are now more than ten years old, but they are better in any respect than the new stuff... Specialized has last year produced a triathlon bike which is completely outside the stupid UCI rules... And it does not break!

What would be your suggestion to bring off shore racing to a new level and by that increase saftey for everybody out there?
You need to push it, otherwise development is not happening...


----------



## outbound

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Paulo they spend huge money,they make huge money. We are subsidizing them and at times risking the lives of the brave souls of those who rescue them. Those SAR folks have no choice. The money is spent and made in a few countries. We are talking about nominal amounts given the economy you point out. The expense of SAR for these folks intentionally placing themselves in harms way in the most violent oceans of the world to make huge money should be viewed as part of the cost of doing business. How can this not be self evident.
I personally know CG. Rescuing an idiot or a drunk they shrug " you can't fix stupid". But these guys are anything but stupid and are fully cognizant of the risks they take. Similarly they know they are part of a big business endeavor. Just like it would affront me to pay for star in a different sport A C L repair this is an affront.


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> ...
> Pushing the envelope should be reserved for inshore, like the AC cats, until it HAS been proven.
> 
> If headsail furling had just been invented, would you regard the Vendee as the appropriate place to test it?


Sorry but you are soooooo wrong in every respect.
Those AC races seen since good old larry has taken over are pushing the envelope inshores... In a no wave condition... What good should that be for people going offshore into waves?

Headsail furling systems had been developed for exactly those races you disqualify now...
I wager that you are a no-thinking-non-educated-i-know-it-all-nonetheless-guy...


----------



## Minnesail

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



capt vimes said:


> I wager that you are a no-thinking-non-educated-i-know-it-all-nonetheless-guy...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



outbound said:


> Paulo they spend huge money,they make huge money. We are subsidizing them and at times risking the lives of the brave souls of those who rescue them. Those SAR folks have no choice. .....The expense of SAR for these folks intentionally placing themselves in harms way in the most violent oceans of the world to make huge money should be viewed as part of the cost of doing business. How can this not be self evident.
> I personally know CG. Rescuing an idiot or a drunk they shrug " you can't fix stupid". But these guys are anything but stupid and are fully cognizant of the risks they take. Similarly they know they are part of a big business endeavor. Just like it would affront me to pay for star in a different sport A C L repair *this is an affront.*


Out, I have what I think is a responsible view of society and about the services the state should provide and I have already said what I think regarding who should pay rescue services regarding pleasure activities that involve some risk (not the state, meaning all tax payers).

There are many pleasure activities that involve some risk and one of them is offshore sailing, racing or cruising, the risks are associated more with lack of knowledge and skill as well as inappropriate sailboats for the conditions that are going to be experienced and not properly with sailing while cruising or racing.

Contrary of what you think, professional racers are not only the ones that are more competent in what regards skills but also the ones that better chose the more appropriated boats for the task. That comes with the knowledge. We have been seeing in the last 10 years an increase in professionalism in what regards top sail racing and that has effectively reduced accidents, instead of increasing as you suggest.

I have pointed out that a simply cruiser's rally like the The Salty Dawg had originated in relatively few miles more rescues that the two last big circumnavigating races, the Volvo Ocean Race and the Vendee Globe put together (one rescue).

Let the specialists (insurance companies) decide the risks associated with each particular offshore sailing venture. For sure if you are right cruisers will pay almost nothing and racers will pay a lot even if I think that you are wrong and that each case is a case and will be appreciated as such.

One thing is for sure: normally sail racers (that most of the times are also cruisers) are among the best sailors while many cruisers have a relative small offshore experience and many don't take care of their boats the same way cruiser-racers do (not all obviously).

This type of mandatory insurance for pleasure activities that imply some risk is not new and it is applied in what regards other supports, namely medical evacuation and medical care, at least in Europe.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> Maybe so, but wouldn't one look great in the driveway!


Yeah, it does. 

I learned my lesson about them long ago though and didn't buy another one until Ford had owned them long enough to smarten them up.


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



capt vimes said:


> I wager that you are a no-thinking-non-educated-i-know-it-all-nonetheless-guy...


Geee, I'z REEL sorry I's such a dummy. I fergot I'z takin' to such smart peeple.

Oh, I'z almost fergot dis;


----------



## Dog Ship

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Why do all the threads that Paulo gets involved with end up like this. He calls himself a teacher but I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to sit in on one of his classes.


----------



## ccriders

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



capt vimes said:


> They are not - sorry...
> Do not come with the bleeding UCI regulations from 2000...
> What this organisition was about, is protecting the - at that time predominated italian manifactures from getting overrun by other countries...
> Is it really in the meaning of advancing bycicle development by allowing only a diamont frame?
> No disc brakes for street bikes?
> 
> What i have standing here beside me is a Trek Y66... And if i would have found a Zipp, i would have payed almost any price... Those bikes are now more than ten years old, but they are better in any respect than the new stuff... Specialized has last year produced a triathlon bike which is completely outside the stupid UCI rules... And it does not break!
> 
> What would be your suggestion to bring off shore racing to a new level and by that increase saftey for everybody out there?
> You need to push it, otherwise development is not happening...


Wow, what a friendly response. 
I think there was quite a bit of jingoism associated with the reasoning attributed to the UCI, but when a bicycle frame comes apart during a mass sprint (French built) or wheels collapse amidst the peloton (an American modification of French, Swiss and Japanese components) there is a clear and present danger to the competitors and it was appropriate for the UCI to concern themselves. Their actions were instructive - they did not proscribe any specific technologies, they prescribed a minimum weight requirement, one that could not be met by the Italian bike industry at that time. 
Development continued resulting in some magnificent bicycles as you noted. Yet these achievements were attained in the recreational market. I don't think anyone ever competed on a Trek carbon fiber URT "Y" bike, except me, of course. Using a 2013 tri bike to refute a 199? UCI ruling is a red herring, and the "y" bike is long gone, a victim of design evolutions in the recreational market, and you can probably get a Zipp bike on EBay and bob, weave and waddle your way down the road.
But more to the point, your saying these extreme keel designs don't have problems is wishful thinking and patently wrong. It is probably more accurate to say all keels have problems, but keels falling off seems to be unique to these extreme fins with giant bulbs attached.
John


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



pdqaltair said:


> Keep it up Paulo, we're rooting for you.
> 
> Personally, I can't imagine a world where people didn't push limits in every endeavor. Some I participate in (ice climbing), others I only watch (extreme sailing), some I couldn't care less about (auto racing). But I'm glad these people exist and are free to adventure.
> 
> A fund to cover rescue costs? That is an interesting idea, though working out the details is a mess. I'm not sure the racers are at greater risk than many less competitive fools; we sure get a lot of recreational rescues due to shear stupidity.


My thoughts, as well...

What makes the objection to the perceived costs/taxpayer burden of these rescues so amusing, is how they pale into virtual insignificance in comparison to the numbers of rescues of recreational and commercial vessels in inshore or coastal waters...

Sure, these dramatic rescues far offshore, in horrific conditions, get all the attention... And yet, hardly a day goes by in America, where CG assets are not diverted to much more 'mundane' incidents... If those who are so concerned about cost-savings, budget constrants, and so on are REALLY serious, they would be calling instead for further regulation, mandatory rescue insurance, or whatever for the type of boating the overwhelming percentage most of us do - namely, near-shore or COASTAL sailing, because that's where most of the 'action' occurs...

Just a few recent examples from here in the NE...

Just last week, someone drove a 47' sailboat straight into the north jetty at Cape May Inlet, the boat eventually breaking up on the beach...

Just before Christmas, a CG helo was sent from Atlantic City to VIRGINIA, to rescue some guy who had run aground 300 YARDS FROM SHORE...

Rough Christmas Eve waters prompt two rescues from Chesapeake Bay - baltimoresun.com

A couple of weeks ago, a CG helo was dispatched to pluck a couple from a 22-footer, aground in waters adjacent to the freakin' ICW... In water too shallow for a CG 25-footer to maneuver alongside??? Hell, the people could have _WALKED_ over to the CG boat, for chrissakes... 

Coast Guard rescues 2 after sailboat ran aground | Associated Press | Elizabeth City

And, as far as the 'cutting edge' nature of these boats is concerned, I'm old enough to remember when folks thought it was foolhardy to venture offshore in a Cal 40... 

Not to mention, a time when SPORTS ILLUSTRATED wrote about Ocean Racing, or when a young Ted Turner was known only as a sailor 

The Cal-40 at left is a stock boat right off the dealer's - 03.28.66 - SI Vault

Hell, I'll bet Bob Perry could entertain us, with some stories about the abuse he suffered, due to such a 'radical' departure in offshore yacht design he made with his Valiant 40... 



















I would have taken this issues to bed with me as a kid, reading them over, and over... A guy like Bernard Stamm would have been an absolute _GOD_ to me back then, as I'm sure he is to legions of young dreamers, today... Yes, I'm thankful that such people exist, and are allowed to do what they do, and it saddens me to hear talk that perhaps such endeavors "should no longer be allowed", because organizers may not be able to guarantee absolute safety...

One thing that has surprised me about this thread, is the sort of 'linearity" of much of the thinking expressed, exemplified by the notion that a designer/builder should know with absolute precision where the tradeoff between speed and 'unbreakability' lies, and that a failure like Stamm's boat suffered should never, EVER occur... (I still think that the repair made after the earlier collision and near loss of the boat likely contributed to this failure, but most appear to be ignoring that possibility) This is _RACING_ we're talking about, after all, and trying to pinpoint that fine line is generally the essence of the game... These guys are not all that different from test pilots, and as much as we all might respect a guy with The Right Stuff like Chuck Yeager, not even all of his flights were unmitigated successes...

If there's one thing I've learned from my years on the water, it can only be summed up by one phrase: Well, _"You never know..."_ No guarantees, sometimes sh_t just happens despite the utmost in preparation and seamanship... But anyone expecting otherwise should probably not put to sea, or at least stay within sight of shore, or within range of a CG helo out of Atlantic City, or Elizabeth City...

Much of my life has life has involved motor racing, so I'm likely to have a different take on this, than most... I'm accustomed to seeing state of the art machines fail, sometimes with dreadful consequences... _You just never know..._ And, the only ones who know, for sure, are those who never take any risk...

Arguably the greatest racing driver ever, 7-time World Champion Michael Schumacher raced in over 300 Grands Prix, winning 91 of them... The risks taken during the course of such a career are incalculable... And yet, tonight he lies in a coma in a hospital in Grenoble, the result of a comparatively banal skiing accident during a family vacation...

_You never know..._

Doctors have grim outlook on Michael Schumacher's condition - Racing - SI.com


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Dog Ship said:


> Why do all the threads that Paulo gets involved with end up like this. He calls himself a teacher but I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to sit in on one of his classes.


I think it was spelled out in a descriptive comment I received in a P.M. a while back - "Paulo, the worlds greatest authority on anything sailing".


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> These guys are not all that different from test pilots, and as much as we all might respect a guy with The Right Stuff like Chuck Yeager, not even all of his flights were unmitigated successes...


In his test pilot days Yeager attended funerals virtually monthly. The streets at Edwards AFB are named after his colleagues. Life was cheaper then and such things were driven by Cold War and nuclear Armageddon fears as well.

Racing toy sailboats is a bit different.


----------



## Dog Ship

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Hahahaha..could you forward that one to me please?


----------



## aeventyr60

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> I think it was spelled out in a descriptive comment I received in a P.M. a while back - "Paulo, the worlds greatest authority on anything sailing".


Yes, and us mere mortals sailing old slow boats far, far from home.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> .. "Paulo, the worlds greatest authority on anything sailing".


Thank you very much for your kind comment but I really don't know that much. We have a saying that is just right to express the situation regarding the subject that has been discussed in this thread and my humble contribute:

*"Among the blinds the one-eyed man is king"*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Apparently the person who PM'd me was correct.


----------



## outbound

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

I guess this is a cultural difference. I expect professionals in a highly showcased endeavor to cover their own poop. I don't expect the CG to pull my butt out of the fire when things get bad but will be real pleased if they do. 
Think on our side of the pond there is increasingly too much reliance on technology and the " nanny" and on your side too much willingness to cede to the" better judgement " of the nanny restricting freedom.
As I said before I'm a huge fan of these races. Much more so than the A.C.. I think the purpose is to push the envelope -of skill,endurance,design and materials. But I still think they should cover all aspects of this commercial enterprise given it's unusual that there is a race when at least one rescue is not required.


----------



## Dog Ship

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Thank you very much for your kind comment but I really don't know that much. We have a saying that is just right to express the situation regarding the subject that has been discussed in this thread and my humble contribute:
> 
> *"Among the blinds the one-eyed man is king"*
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


:laugher


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Dog Ship said:


> Why do all the threads that Paulo gets involved with end up like this. He calls himself a teacher but I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to sit in on one of his classes.


I think it would be fun, with some terrific give-and-take push-pull rip-snorting hair-pulling no-punches-pulled lollapaloozas of discusions. We might not settle anything, but we'd have a heck of a good time trying.

It wasn't Paulo who lowered the tone of the thread with ad hominem attacks; I don't think it fair to blame him for the actions of one of his proponents.


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



ccriders said:


> Wow, what a friendly response.
> I think there was quite a bit of jingoism associated with the reasoning attributed to the UCI, but when a bicycle frame comes apart during a mass sprint (French built) or wheels collapse amidst the peloton (an American modification of French, Swiss and Japanese components) there is a clear and present danger to the competitors and it was appropriate for the UCI to concern themselves. Their actions were instructive - they did not proscribe any specific technologies, they prescribed a minimum weight requirement, one that could not be met by the Italian bike industry at that time.
> Development continued resulting in some magnificent bicycles as you noted. Yet these achievements were attained in the recreational market. I don't think anyone ever competed on a Trek carbon fiber URT "Y" bike, except me, of course. Using a 2013 tri bike to refute a 199? UCI ruling is a red herring, and the "y" bike is long gone, a victim of design evolutions in the recreational market, and you can probably get a Zipp bike on EBay and bob, weave and waddle your way down the road.
> But more to the point, your saying these extreme keel designs don't have problems is wishful thinking and patently wrong. It is probably more accurate to say all keels have problems, but keels falling off seems to be unique to these extreme fins with giant bulbs attached.
> John


You mention the stupid UCI regulations and even do not know what they are about?
Here is something to read for you:
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/g...bjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=Nzg4OTM&LangId=1

Sure enough - the keel design is brought to the limits in those boats... It is the combination of thin blades and canting mechanism that let these designs snap from time to time...
It is a race boat - what else to say here?


----------



## Jaramaz

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Dog Ship said:


> Why do all the threads that Paulo gets involved with end up like this. He calls himself a teacher but I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to sit in on one of his classes.


They do not. Paulo has strong opinions, which results in a good debate. He contributes in a good and constructive way with his views, which he also explains. From the tone of his contributions one gets the impression that he actually has been (are?) working as a teacher.
Paulos thread on interesting boats is one of the most interesting on SN, which can be seen eg from the number of views.

Arguments like yours above is usually used when lacking arguments on the subject, then it is easier to attac the person instead.



SloopJonB said:


> I think it was spelled out in a descriptive comment I received in a P.M. a while back - "Paulo, the worlds greatest authority on anything sailing".


 Disappointing to see Jon acting on this level. Actually expected better as Jon many times have had substantial contributions. Not here, obviously.

/J


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> I think it would be fun, with some terrific give-and-take push-pull rip-snorting hair-pulling no-punches-pulled lollapaloozas of discusions. We might not settle anything, but we'd have a heck of a good time trying...


Thank you. I take the opportunity to wish you and all the took part on this colorful debate a very good new year.

Regarding me as a teacher, yes I have been one for almost 35 years (among other professional activities) on related art subjects. I am retired now and I miss the kids.

I gave classes (depending on the years) to kids from 9 to 18 years old and I can say that I was regarded as a popular teacher, but also a demanding one. Funny thing is that the ones that showed more respect and appreciation for me were the bad asses

Regarding fun, the better year was a year were I decided to try with 9 to 12 years old students some new pedagogic theories (at the time) about a non-directive approach. It was needed some nerve because I was being evaluated as a teacher that year and have monitored classes. Basically I passed one year giving classes without saying no to anything a student proposed (unless we changed is mind) and surfing on student ideas as a way to develop contents. That was fun!!!!...and I learned a huge amount in what regards group psychologie and personal interaction.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Hmmm, a new day, and a new CG SAR mission...

Well, at least we can all take comfort that our taxpayer dollars aren't going towards a search for some flimsy raceboat 

Coast Guard searching for 2 men aboard missing sailboat off Texas coast | khou.com Houston

Hopefully, this one will turn out like so many of these deals do - sailors "lost", or "missing", due to an inability to recharge a smartphone...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



capt vimes said:


> You mention the stupid UCI regulations and even do not know what they are about?
> Here is something to read for you:
> http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/g...bjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=Nzg4OTM&LangId=1
> 
> Sure enough - the keel design is brought to the limits in those boats... It is the combination of thin blades and canting mechanism that let these designs snap from time to time...
> It is a race boat - what else to say here?


They have a controlling entity on IMOCA class that plays the part of UCI on what regards regulations and safety rules. the IMOCA technical committee works on the advice of the better NAs (with experience in solo racing boats) and on the advise of the best solo sailors to perfect their boats. That is what has allowed the Open 60's to be bettered all the time, not only in what regards speed but also seaworthiness and safety.

For instance next year the keels and the masts will be standard and the same for all. They want to advance faster on reliability in what regards those two elements. With all masts and keels identical the designers would have a much bigger feedback in what regards to detect and solve problems. The solutions chosen were the more reliable ones to date.

Some interesting information about all this process:

"*IMOCA ratifies the new rules that apply to the new boats:*

With an overwhelming majority (85%), the General Meeting on 17 December 2013 validated the final adjustments enabling the decisions made back in April to be ratified. ...

There was an urgent need to set out the new rules, despite the complexity of the subject. The stakes were clear: to leave the door open to innovations enabling the new boats to be competitive, without putting the existing craft out of the game. All this had to involve specifications that required increased safety, reliability and simplicity for stabilized budgets.

This massive undertaking began in January 2011, when IMOCA tasked Eric Levet (*Lombard* firm) with conducting a study into the evolution of the class measurement...

This whole process adhered to an open approach dating back to 2008 and backed by Luc Talbourdet, President of the Class and Vincent Riou, President of the Technical Committee.
..
In April 2009, at the end of the Vendée Globe in question, under the presidency of Dominique Wavre, IMOCA ratified modifications to the class measurement which, in part, took up those proposed some nine months earlier: limiting the Righting Moment, standardizing the mast height, increasing the angle of capsize, increasing the solidity of the keels through the application of safety factors and minimum characteristics, implementation of tests on masts and keels and limiting the number of appendages.

These decisions contributed to making the fleet more uniform, at least as far as the new boats were concerned. Though these put a limit to the extremes, particularly in terms of power, the performances of our boats continued to increase. The courses sailed by François Gabart and Armel Le Cléach in the last Vendée Globe testify to this.

The IMOCA skippers also know that this kind of performance doesn't come free. It is achieved through an increase in costs and risk taking. The desire to keep the best possible handle on these two parameters has become a desire shared by everyone involved. All the actions carried out over the past two years have been heading in this direction and are accompanied by a real desire to preserve the sport and hence the uniformity of the fleet.

Jointly achieving these goals is reminiscent of achieving the impossible: how can you reconcile the old and new boats? How do you maintain a true sense of competitiveness? How do you combine sport, adventure and technology?

The conclusion has been a long time coming and we should like to thank everyone who has contributed to this tedious work, to the string of administrators who have kept everything on track, to the technical committees, who have put a great deal of effort into coming up with solutions, the various naval architect firms who have shared their opinions with us, *Finot-Conq*, *Owen-Clarke*, and over recent months *VPLP-Verdier*, *Farr Yacht Design* and *Juan K Yacht Design*, who have supported IMOCA in putting together the final proposals presented at the General Meeting by the Executive Committee.

The parameters of the class measurement we have retained are the fruit of a collective approach where the experiences and skills of each person have been combined to come up with this end result.
..
On 17 December IMOCA validated the following decisions:

For greater reliability and better cost control:

the keel and the masts are standardised,
limited use of 'exotic' materials.

For greater simplicity:

the 10° criteria (maximum heeling angle in class measurement configuration, in a static condition) has been removed, thus making possible ballast tanks more viable;
....."

Regards

Paulo


----------



## nolatom

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, a new day, and a new CG SAR mission...
> 
> Well, at least we can all take comfort that our taxpayer dollars aren't going towards a search for some flimsy raceboat
> 
> Coast Guard searching for 2 men aboard missing sailboat off Texas coast | khou.com Houston
> 
> Hopefully, this one will turn out like so many of these deals do - sailors "lost", or "missing", due to an inability to recharge a smartphone...


Well, that's a new story, hope it turns out well for the two, and the Coast Guard too. Gulf weather has been snotty and cold but not lethal so this may end well (please).

And I, too, am happy to get into it with Paulo, he sometimes wonders if I "do not understand" certain stuff. Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. But it's a fair and civil discussion.


----------



## miatapaul

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



outbound said:


> I guess this is a cultural difference. I expect professionals in a highly showcased endeavor to cover their own poop. I don't expect the CG to pull my butt out of the fire when things get bad but will be real pleased if they do.
> Think on our side of the pond there is increasingly too much reliance on technology and the " nanny" and on your side too much willingness to cede to the" better judgement " of the nanny restricting freedom.
> As I said before I'm a huge fan of these races. Much more so than the A.C.. I think the purpose is to push the envelope -of skill,endurance,design and materials. But I still think they should cover all aspects of this commercial enterprise given it's unusual that there is a race when at least one rescue is not required.


Well I don't think it has anything to with a "nanny state," but technology has made it easier to call the CG. You can pull your trigger on the eperb and get help literally anywhere on the planet. (OK there may be some areas that don't have satellite coverage, but I won't be going there!) So people go out perhaps with the expectation of being saved. This makes it so people who go out less prepared can call for help. In the past they just sailed off and were never heard from again. Many may have been thought to have reached the Pacific islands or other destinations and just did not have a way to contact home.

Heck even in the 70's lots of people went off shore without even a VHF radio, let alone a SSB or satellite phone. 


JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, a new day, and a new CG SAR mission...
> 
> Well, at least we can all take comfort that our taxpayer dollars aren't going towards a search for some flimsy raceboat
> 
> Coast Guard searching for 2 men aboard missing sailboat off Texas coast | khou.com Houston
> 
> Hopefully, this one will turn out like so many of these deals do - sailors "lost", or "missing", due to an inability to recharge a smartphone...


Sounds like another case of someone who bought a cheap boat too far away from home. It was the new owners first time in the Gulf.


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, a new day, and a new CG SAR mission...
> 
> Well, at least we can all take comfort that our taxpayer dollars aren't going towards a search for some flimsy raceboat
> 
> Coast Guard searching for 2 men aboard missing sailboat off Texas coast | khou.com Houston
> 
> Hopefully, this one will turn out like so many of these deals do - sailors "lost", or "missing", due to an inability to recharge a smartphone...


They're safe.

Boaters who went missing off Texas coast return to port safe | khou.com Houston


----------



## ccriders

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Capt vines,
Thanks for the link to the current UCI rules, it has been a long time since I've read them. I think you must realize that most of these rules were written to protect the integrity of bicycle racing as it has been known for more than a hundred years and to exclude recumbent style bicycles which rightly are raced by those that wish in races promoted by the human-powered vehicle association (IHPVA). If your interests are in these types of developments, then go there. There is no need to bash the UCI for establishing safety specifications that might exclude your favorite style of bicycle. And you have to recognize the huge advancements made in bicycle technology since Eddy Mercks smoked the peloton and UCIs honest efforts to keep the focus on the athlete, not the bike.
John


----------



## ccriders

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> For instance next year the keels and the masts will be standard and the same for all. They want to advance faster on reliability in what regards those two elements. With all masts and keels identical the designers would have a much bigger feedback in what regards to detect and solve problems. The solutions chosen were the more reliable ones
> Paulo


Now that is a step in the right direction. Your whole message is a good read and my understanding from it is that the association recognizes there have been technical problems that need to be addressed and that those problems are so complex the association needs to establish controls over innovations.
Thanks,
John


----------



## zz4gta

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

There are so many things that are misleading and misinformed in this thread, the internet as a whole should be ashamed. 
PCP - you gave someone advice earlier in this thread to not comment about the open 60 b/c they didn't know anything about the boat. I'm going to give you the same advice when discussing Top Fuel dragsters. Your comment that they're all about brute strength tells just how little you know about the sport.

I'm going to make some general statements about top level sailboat racing. These are my opinions based on what I've learned from racing on a grand prix boat and following the VOR, Vende and other offshore races.

1-	One of the biggest problems with offshore racing is trying to calculate the loads a boat will experience during the voyage. Just like the AC, vende and VOR boats are designed and built to withstand "typical" conditions for that body of water during that time of year. As we all know, this isn't always the case. So stuff breaks. 
2-	The other issue is everyone is trying to push very hard while racing. These boats don't exactly depower right away when they heel more. Hull form, dagger boards, and canting keels keep them powered up to the point of them breaking if you don't take your foot off the gas pedal. 
3-	To keep the boats light, most are underbuilt on purpose. For example, a typical safety margin for a cruising boat would be in the 4-5 times the expected load. For a VOR boat, they spec out equipment that has a safety factor of 1.2 x the expected load. Not a lot of room for error if you fall off a wave at 20 kts. 
4-	None of this has anything to do with what happened in this incident b/c the boat wasn't powered up or racing. Heavily reefed on a delivery it got caught in a storm and thankfully no one died. This boat (not the open 60 platform) clearly had some structural issues that weren't caught on its last inspection and the damn front tried to fall off. The beauty of carbon, little to no warning before it fails completely.

There, I've said my piece. Happy new year everyone.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



zz4gta said:


> There are so many things that are misleading and misinformed in this thread, the internet as a whole should be ashamed.
> PCP - you gave someone advice earlier in this thread to not comment about the open 60 b/c they didn't know anything about the boat. I'm going to give you the same advice when discussing Top Fuel dragsters. Your comment that they're all about brute strength tells just how little you know about the sport.


Yes you are right about not being interested or not knowing about dragsters but I was not trying to take way the technical achievement of taking a huge power from an engine for some seconds. Call it brutal acceleration on a straight line or whatever it is more adequate. Dragsters and Dragster races are something that has a big appeal to Americans but very little to Europeans that prefer more skillful types of races, like F1 or WRC.



zz4gta said:


> 3-	To keep the boats light, most are underbuilt on purpose. For example, a typical safety margin for a cruising boat would be in the 4-5 times the expected load. For a VOR boat, they spec out equipment that has a safety factor of 1.2 x the expected load.


I agree with your take but this can be misleading even if generically right with the exception that the load factor is far superior to 1.2.

It gives the idea that a boat like the Open 60 is more fragile than a cruising boat in what regards the loads that it can take when it is the opposite even if the load factor is smaller and that simply because the boat was designed to take loads hugely bigger.

Those boats are designed to race at over 20K in some of the worst seas of the planet (high latitudes), the loads that the boat has to take and is designed to take have no comparison with the loads for what is designed the typical cruising boat, meaning 8/10k speed on average sea conditions, not the ones you find on high latitudes.

In the end, even with a smaller safety factor regarding the loads that the boat is designed to meet, an offshore racer like a VOR 70 or a Open 60 is much stronger than the typical cruiser. It has to be.

Have a nice year

Regards

Paulo

*Edit:* I knew that the safety margin was much bigger that 1.2 but I did not want to give any numbers without checking: The ones from the keel are mandatory to all. They were of 4.1 and they passed this year to 5.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



ccriders said:


> Now that is a step in the right direction. Your whole message is a good read and my understanding from it is that the association recognizes there have been technical problems that need to be addressed and that those problems are so complex the association needs to establish controls over innovations.
> Thanks,
> John


John, not a step on the right direction but one more step on the right direction. They have been improving the boats these way for the last 15 years with the help of some of the best NAs.

Have a nice new year.

Best regards

Paulo


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> They're safe.
> 
> Boaters who went missing off Texas coast return to port safe | khou.com Houston


Well, that's good news, of course...

Hopefully, the Coasties might have at least gotten some decent training out of all that aviation fuel they pissed away... 

I'm only half-kidding, actually... There is an argument to be made, that there actually can be some benefit to be derived from the sort of high seas rescues that Australia, for example, has been called upon to perform:

From a report of the Australian Navy's rescue of Yann Elies from GENERALI during the 2008 Vendee, after he broke his leg in the Southern Ocean west of Cape Leeuwin:



> There is often an outcry by politicians in Australia seeking to make capital out of what they claim is unnecessary taxpayer expense, but *the Australian military authorities and civilian rescue organisations have said that cases like this offer perfect training exercises at less cost than those which they have, in any case, to organise.*
> 
> French yachtsman rescued by Australian navy - Sailing - More Sports - The Independent


----------



## zz4gta

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

PCP - NA's are still having trouble estimating the dynamic loads on offshore sailboats (hence the change from 4:1 to 5:1). You listed a well published safety factor. But I'm pretty sure the rest of the boat is not built to a 4:1 safety factor. You're very good at picking and choosing snippets of information that support your argument. Do you have any personal experience onboard an all carbon race boat? Race boats have always been lightly built unless they're under a rating system that gives heavy boats an advantage, like MORC. The open 60's, class 40's, and even the VOR boats require highly skilled sailors to get them home in one piece. Even if they're going breakneck speeds.

What you chose to not address what my point about item #4. This boat should not have broke. PERIOD. It was well under powered in the conditions and was either an oversight of the sailors (very likely on a delivery where everyone is not 'dialed in') or it was a build issue/ inspection issue.

Let me make it clear, I'm not hear to say that open 60's are unsafe boats, but they don't hold the same safety factors as a Hanse or Hinckley. This is an acceptable risk as I see it. However, you cannot say that carbon race boats don't have failures on a pretty regular basis. And part of this is due to the thin layup, and lack of historical data in regards to cyclical loads on a rough sea. They're still working out the details.


----------



## christian.hess

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

the details in my opinion, are that they are race boats, pushed to limits by skilled skippers pushing THEIR limits...

is this not so?

its so easy I dont understand why people love quoting publications, snippets, articles etc...

the quote about a formula 1 car not being able to handle a dakar is absolutely true

different use, having said that I have seen a yamaha race bike carve sand dunes in chile like a surfer in hawaii does, so it can be done...

that doesnt mean its right....

race boats are light and purpose built...why would anyone beleive that they are stronger or sturdier than say a westail 32? really?

(better "race designed" sure...more efficient design absolutely, better intended and narrower purpose of course!)

happy new year guys

peace


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



zz4gta said:


> PCP - NA's are still having trouble estimating the dynamic loads on offshore sailboats (hence the change from 4:1 to 5:1). You listed a well published safety factor.


It is not a published factor but a mandatory one. All boats have to have at least that safety coefficient.



zz4gta said:


> But I'm pretty sure the rest of the boat is not built to a 4:1 safety factor. You're very good at picking and choosing snippets of information that support your argument.


That is an unfounded statement. I do not find snippets of information, I found my opinions. The only one available is that one, the others are obviously a well kept secret.

There is a good reason for that one to be a mandatory coefficient and not any other and the reason is that the keels have been by far the most fragile part of that boat (with the masts). That is why there are a mandatory safety coefficient for keels and not for any other boat part. Hulls have been particularly resistant and did not show any particular weakness being Stamm's case an exception in many years in what regards a catastrophic breakage.



zz4gta said:


> Race boats have always been lightly built unless they're under a rating system that gives heavy boats an advantage, like MORC. &#8230;


Of course, but contrary to other offshore racers these boats are designed to race a non stop circumnavigation sailed most of the time in high latitudes. If they don't finish they don't win.

This is not the kind of offshore boat that makes a Fastnet or a Sydney-Hobart and then are thoroughly verified to see if all is alright or if something needs fixing. On these ones that only happens after a 40 000nm circumnavigation and for that reason they have to be much stronger than the typical offshore carbon racer. That has a reflex in what regards the applied safety coefficient, that is naturally bigger than on racers that race incomparably shorter races, even if offshore ones.



zz4gta said:


> What you chose to not address what my point about item #4: This boat should not have broke. PERIOD. It was well under powered in the conditions and was either an oversight of the sailors (very likely on a delivery where everyone is not 'dialed in') or it was a build issue/ inspection issue. &#8230;&#8230;
> 
> Item #4: None of this has anything to do with what happened in this incident b/c the boat wasn't powered up or racing. Heavily reefed on a delivery it got caught in a storm and thankfully no one died. This boat (not the open 60 platform) clearly had some structural issues that weren't caught on its last inspection and the damn front tried to fall off.


That one I do not understand. You have answered yourself that question: *"This boat (not the open 60 platform) clearly had some structural issues that weren't caught on its last inspection"*. Probably Jon is right and that previous delamination (hole) that boat suffered produced structural problems that were not detected neither repaired even if the boat made 60 or 70 000nm after that.



zz4gta said:


> Let me make it clear, I'm not hear to say that open 60's are unsafe boats, but they don't hold the same safety factors as a Hanse or Hinckley. This is an acceptable risk as I see it. However, you cannot say that carbon race boats don't have failures on a pretty regular basis. And part of this is due to the thin layup, and lack of historical data in regards to cyclical loads on a rough sea. They're still working out the details.


In fact carbon boats can be much stronger than boats built with any other materials and the failures on carbon racers have nothing to do with the material itself but with the fact (as you say) that they are built as light as possible.

There are cruising boats built in carbon and there will be more in the future.

The technology exist for many years and is used not only in boats but cars and airplanes. The details have long been worked&#8230;.not yet completely in what regards the loads in a canting keel, but that is a different story and that were mostly of steel (and now they are all).

Regarding the reliability of carbon hulls, there are many old Open 60 with 15 years still racing around the world. In fact they have proved so "indestructible" that they are used on a minor circumnavigating race, the Velux 5 Oceans (minor but longer). Each of those boats had already made many circumnavigations and hundreds of thousands of Nm, more than almost any cruising boat on the planet and they have made them racing and many times in high latitudes.

The fragility of carbon racers has to do with being as light as possible regarding the conditions they meet. Inshore carbon racers are more fragile than offshore carbon racers and these ones more fragile than boats designed to race while circumnavigating non stop. This ones have to be necessarily very strong.

Yes, it is possible that a Hinckley or an Hanse have a safety coefficient bigger but that coefficient is related with the forces and conditions the boat have to face and as a IMOCA boat has to face much tougher conditions that does not mean that a Hanse or a Hincley are stronger than an Open 60, quite the contrary. Put them on the big Austral desert facing 50K winds and 10 meters waves and they are more at risk than an Open 60, from breakage and from capsizing, simply because the Open 60 was designed taking those conditions into consideration, not the Hanse or the Hinkley.

That does not mean that I do not agree with you that these boats are so powerful that they cannot be sailed full throttle all the time. The shipper has to manage the power according with the sea conditions but for what we have seen on the last edition&#8230;the power these boats can take even in rough conditions is just amazing. In fact I am no sure who would break first, the boat or the skipper.

well, here is already 2014. For the ones that are still in 2013, a good "passage". I am drinking champagne!!!

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Lou452

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

This is a question for PCP or informed sailor. This boat was going as slow as it was able ? Is that what I am reading ? 
>We had the brake on, and were we were still going 30kts at times.< 
Do they drag a drogue or just sail no matter what conditions ? What are storm tactics for this type boat? 
Good day, Lou


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Hi Lou. Good new year to you

I never heard about these boats using a floating anchor. Many years before I read about a famous French sailor with a predecessor of these boats trying something like that to slow the boat on a huge storm and it did not work out: The boat was slower but that allowed the waves to break all over the boat. He then went on sailing and said it was incomparably better in what regarded seaworthiness.

For what I can understand and for what I have seen these guys doing in bad condition, they keep sailing more slowly and on the best sailing direction that probably depends on the conditions. They are safer in a dynamically way and what this type of boats can take is more than what Stamm had encountered.

In fact he was sailing wit a 4 reefed main and a small frontal sail and if he needed he could depower the boat a lot more. I have seen these boats sailing in conditions where they are making 10K with bare pole. Bare Poles are for these boats the way they face extreme weather. Bare poles with extreme winds will allow them to keep sailing maintaining directional stability and boat control.

If he was sailing not with bare poles but with a reefed main and a storm jib I am sure that it was because he considered that it was the right amount of sail for the conditions, that he said, were manageable and I am also sure he knew what he was doing.

The boat did not break because the conditions were not manageable for that type of boat but because that particular boat had some structural issue that had not been detected and repaired.

On Yachting World magazine site we can read this:

"*A day earlier they had reported sailing in winds of 45-55 knots, very big seas but said they were holding up fine. 'Hide the children and the cat, park your car away from trees; we are coming up with something not very nice," they reported. Alarmingly, they added that they had been unable at times to slow the boat, which had hit a top speed of 31.3 knots, and had on several occasions been rolled in wave troughs*."

Read more at Bernard Stamm rescue: 'I swam for my life' | Yachting World

But that is just a lousy translation of he said and does not even regarding the conditions they had when the accident took place (he made another statement about that). With that "translation" one stays with a wrong impression. This is the original statement:

"Bonjour, Un conseil, planquez les enfants, le chat et garez votre voiture au vent des arbres, on arrive avec quelque chose de pas sympa.

A bord, ça va, le bateau prend des gros coups mais tient bien le choc. On a 45 noeuds établis avec rafales à 55. La mer est très grosse. Nous sommes avec 3 ris tourmentin, mais on a du mal à freiner le bateau.
On a fait une pointe de vitesse à 31,33 noeuds, mais on s'en passerait volontiers. Le pilote ne gère pas trop mal, à part 3 fois où il s'est laissé prendre dans le creux de la vague et on est parti à l'abattée à chaque fois. Pas de bobo à part une latte de GV cassée."

Nouvelles... ventées du bord ! - News - Cheminées Poujoulat sponsor officiel de Bernard Stamm

a better translation would be:

*"Good morning, an advise, hide the children and the cat, park your car away from trees, we are arriving with something not very nice,"

Aboard we are alright, the boat is sailing in hard conditions but is doing well. we have sustained 45K wing gusting 55K. The seas are very big. we are sailing with 3 reefs on the main and a storm jib and we have difficulty in slowing the boat. He reached at one time the max speed of 31,33K but we would have preferred to avoid that. The autopilot works reasonably well dealing with the conditions with the exception of three times where he were caught on the base of a big wave and we broached the three times. No problems, except a broken batten."*

I would say that the general idea that we get is quite different. They are talking about conditions they are managing on autopilot, not even hand steering and they have yet way of taking more sail out of the boat and depowering it.

Stamm had said regarding the weather and sailing conditions at the time they had the accident: *"Nous étions un peu devant le front, au portant. Il y avait entre 43 et 45 nœuds de vent établis, mais c'était maniable." * meaning they were in control and that the conditions were tough but not extreme.

This is the complete statement and where he talks about the conditions but saying nothing about boat speed (only that the conditions where manageable) I have translated his statement in the interesting boat thread:

Réactions, à chaud, de Bernard Stamm - News - Cheminées Poujoulat sponsor officiel de Bernard Stamm

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Lou452

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Thank you, PCP  The report leads you to think the boat is out of control. Yet later he has less wind and the tragic misfortune of the boat breaking. 
I also did not quote Bernard Stamm. I took two parts of that report and put them close. It is easy to see how things said start to take on a new meaning. We only hear what we want. Sometimes we are not even aware this happens. I like the reading lesson that changes a word in a sentence and your brain will change the words to make it fit your mind. 
Good Day, Lou


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Lou452 said:


> Thank you, PCP  The report leads you to think the boat is out of control. Yet later he has less wind and the tragic misfortune of the boat breaking.
> I also did not quote Bernard Stamm. I took two parts of that report and put them close. It is easy to see how things said start to take on a new meaning. We only hear what we want. Sometimes we are not even aware this happens. I like the reading lesson that changes a word in a sentence and your brain will change the words to make it fit your mind.
> Good Day, Lou


More information was given by Stamm on an interview to a newspaper that confirm what I had said on previous posts and that explain better what were the conditions when the accident took place:

*"We were under storm jib and with 4 reefs in the main. Everything was under control: We were sailing downwind in a way that was similar to evasive sailing, running with the wind. The boat was doing 12/13K (out of surfs) and it was behaving very well. I was at the chart table with Danien Guillou when, in a wave, we heard a huge crack: the boat break completely in two parts......

The problem was with the boat, that is designed to sail on big seas, and broke in two....one thing is for sure: we were sailing much lower than the boat potential (under-speed) ... that's what is incredible. When we are racing and we are attacking exploiting the boat full potential..., then we are stressing the boats, but on this occasion we sailed in complete security and the boat was very little stressed. That makes no sense. "*

You can have more information on the interesting boat thread.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## zz4gta

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Yes, it is possible that a Hinckley or an Hanse have a safety coefficient bigger but that coefficient is related with the forces and conditions the boat have to face and as a IMOCA boat has to face much tougher conditions that does not mean that a Hanse or a Hincley are stronger than an Open 60, quite the contrary. Put them on the big Austral desert facing 50K winds and 10 meters waves and they are more at risk than an Open 60, from breakage and from capsizing, simply because the Open 60 was designed taking those conditions into consideration, not the Hanse or the Hinkley.


This is where we will agree to disagree. If something has a safety factor of 5:1, lets say the expected load is 100 lbs on the cruiser, then they'll build it to 500 lbs giving it the 5:1 ratio.

If the race boat's expected load is 1000 lbs they'll build it to 2.0x that. 2,000 lbs. This doesn't make the race boat stronger just b/c it can stand higher loads. It's REQUIRED to withstand higher loads b/c it generates them.


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

And, in more news of Coast Guard crews being placed in jeopardy needlessly:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this recent Northeaster/blizzard was pretty well forecast in advance, no? So, what the hell was anyone doing off Cape Fear/Prying Pan Shoals on a 63' sailboat, on Thursday night???

UPDATE: Coast Guard rescues five from sailboat off Bald Head Island | WWAY NewsChannel 3 | Wilmington NC News

Ahh, yet another sea story that apparently begins with a sailboat _"losing power"_... 

Damn, I'd love to know more about this one... Sure hope it wasn't another one of those RTW racing boats, or a Salty Dawg off to a late start...


----------



## jameswilson29

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> And, in more news of Coast Guard crews being placed in jeopardy needlessly...
> 
> Damn, I'd love to know more about this one... Sure hope it wasn't another one of those RTW racing boats, or a Salty Dawg off to a late start...


They should have bought the unlimited towing package from Boat/US!

Nevertheless, it is good to know the USCG is always there for our convenience, just in case it gets scary out there on a 63' sailboat!


----------



## christian.hess

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



zz4gta said:


> This is where we will agree to disagree. If something has a safety factor of 5:1, lets say the expected load is 100 lbs on the cruiser, then they'll build it to 500 lbs giving it the 5:1 ratio.
> 
> If the race boat's expected load is 1000 lbs they'll build it to 2.0x that. 2,000 lbs. This doesn't make the race boat stronger just b/c it can stand higher loads. It's REQUIRED to withstand higher loads b/c it generates them.


THIS is what is so important to understand

its not just the design and safety factors its what you do with said boat!

an open 60 is not better designed than a hinckley or hanse or whatever they are "narrower minded" designs that are better at doing what they do and that is solo sailing in high latitudes...

hit an open 60 hull the right way and you can easily crack it, carbon fiber is fiddly like this(my experience comes from bicycle frames in racing) they are strong only in certain angles.

you cant do that on most production heavy offhshore cruisers again an example a westsail 32

if an open 60 would be designed using the same safety margins, hull strength and rig strength that open 60 would be LAST PLACE

ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THE TIME but it probably wont have any catastrophic failures...so you have to choose!

lets quit the whole nonsensical this design is better than this other design and more focus on intended purpose of said design


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



zz4gta said:


> This is where we will agree to disagree. If something has a safety factor of 5:1, lets say the expected load is 100 lbs on the cruiser, then they'll build it to 500 lbs giving it the 5:1 ratio.
> 
> If the race boat's expected load is 1000 lbs they'll build it to 2.0x that. 2,000 lbs. This doesn't make the race boat stronger just b/c it can stand higher loads. It's REQUIRED to withstand higher loads b/c it generates them.


I understand what you say and I have no problem with different opinions but I don't think you are looking at itthe right way:

5:1 ratio is a very good ratio even for a cruising boat, but let's accept that as the right figure for expensive boats. But the 1:2 ratio is completely out for a boat able to do a non stop circumnavigation in high latitudes. We have seen that the only mandatory ratio, 1:4.1 was raised to 1:5. I believe most of the boats will be built with not less than a 1:3 ratio, probably between 3 and 4 in most cases.

This ratio on a Imoca boat regard the highest loads the boat experience (the same with the cruising boat) that in this case is sailing between 20 and 30K and sailing on high latitudes were waves can reach many times over 30ft.

The difference in loads regarding speed is not a progressive one but an exponential one. The same boat sailing at 30K is not sustaining 50% more stress than at 20k the same way a boat sailing at 10k is not sustaining half the stress than he takes at 20K but much less. Even a difference of 5 or 6 K can double the loads on the hull and keel.

I now this but I cannot tell you exact figures. For the sake of discussion let's assume that at 20k the same hull is experiencing 3 times more stress than sailing at 10k (I would say that factor is much bigger).

So in this case let's consider your 1000lbs load that taking into consideration the 5 factor used for a cruising boat will translate in a breaking load of 5000lbs.

The same load on a racing boat wit a 3 factor would translate in 3000lbs but considering that the boat is built to sustain the conditions on high latitude and to be sailed at 3 times the speed of the cruising boat (between 20 and 30K) we would have to consider another factor due to the needs of sustaining these conditions, that corresponds to the differences in magnitude of the maximum loads the two different boats will sustain. Let's take the 3 factor as that difference in magnitude even if I consider that in reality it is a bigger one:

Than we have for the Imoca: 3000lbs .3 = 9000 lbs of breaking load while the top cruising boat will have 5000lbs.

This does not mean that if the top cruising boat and the Imoca are sailed to the worse loading conditions they are designed to sustain, meaning the cruising boat on average latitudes and at 10/11k and the Imoca on high latitudes at 26/30k, the cruising boat will not be more reliable, quite the contrary, but will mean also that if the racing boat is sailed at half of its potential (in what regards stress and speed), it will be more reliable than the cruising boat.

Those were the conditions that, according with what Stamm said, the boat was being sailed when it broke. The boat was not being raced but sailed in a safety mode, being on autopilot with them inside.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



christian.hess said:


> ...
> hit an open 60 hull the right way and you can easily crack it, carbon fiber is fiddly like this(my experience comes from bicycle frames in racing) they are strong only in certain angles.
> 
> you cant do that on most production heavy offhshore cruisers again an example a westsail 32
> ..


Hess, What you say does not make sense. I don't know nothing about bicycles but I do know that there are 15 year old Open 60's still racing after having made 4 or 5 racing circumnavigations and much more racing Transats, boats with hundreds of thousands of miles, boats that have sustained more stress than any cruising boat during their entire life...and that are still around waiting for the next Five Ocean's race.

That would not would be possible if this was true: *"hit an open 60 hull the right way and you can easily crack it, carbon fiber is fiddly ... they are strong only in certain angles."*

Carbon fiber is just the strongest and more durable material around with the disadvantage of being an expensive one. Because it is so strong you can make lighter boats as strong as heavier boats on any other material, namely fiberglass.

Nothing better to do a strong boat than carbon. How strong it will not depend on the material itself (that is the strongest) but on the load factors used.

Many maxi luxury yachts with 100ft are today built in Carbon, not because it is the more racing appropriated material but because it is the best material, if we take not price in consideration and some of those buyers just want the best, regardless of price.

If you do a Westsail 32 in Carbon with the same weight of a fiberglass one, you would have a boat many times stronger....and a huge waste

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Those were the conditions that, according with what Stamm said, the boat was being sailed when it broke. The boat was not being raced but sailed in a safety mode, being on autopilot with them inside.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hmmm, speaking of sailing under autopilot... Too bad the camera was not on a gimballed mount, to better convey the full effect...

Your mention earlier in the thread about the inversion/righting test was dismissed by some, as being of little significance... Yeah, well, I'd love to see anyone here try it with their own boat... 

Impressive to me, is how dry the cockpit remains throughout, the amazing amount of floatation that hull affords... Lay any of the boats most of us sail on their sides for that long, and the downflooding of the companionway would probably be well underway 

Not to mention, imagine what would happen to a couple of hundred pounds of of diesel in jerry cans lashed to the lifeline stanchions 






Suffice it to say, guys like Stamm are cut from a different cloth than you and me...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, speaking of sailing under autopilot... Too bad the camera was not on a gimballed mount, to better convey the full effect...
> 
> Your mention earlier in the thread about the inversion/righting test was dismissed by some, as having little meaning... Yeah, well, I'd love to see anyone here try it with their own boat...
> 
> Incredible broach on a sailing boat - YouTube
> 
> Suffice it to say, guys like Stamm are cut from a different cloth than you and me...


Yes, regarding the inversion/righting test to serve only to see how much water would go inside the boat, as someone stated, it seemed so absurd that I did not even reply. Regarding the inversion test without a mast: do you know that a boat would re right itself easily if the mast stays in place? I agree, that seems strange but serious tank testing took away any doubt.

These boats have the most demanding mandatory stability requirements in all industry, racing or cruising alike. As you know they have many thousands of liters of liked ballast and a canting keel. Putting everything on the wrong place, meaning keel canting to the side of heel as well had thousands of liters of water ballast, even so they have a mandatory AVS superior to the one of many cruising boats, one that would allow them to pass RCD class A requirements by a large margin.

When they are hit broadside by a wave, they will have normally all on the right place, canting keel and ballast, so you can imagine the stability of those animals.

In what other type of 60ft sailing boat it would be possible to be inside chatting with the other crew member on big seas with 45/50K of wind on autopilot doing over 10K with the boat *"behaving very well... in complete security and the boat was very little stressed"[/B.

Yes, I know, the boat broke but the fact that a very experienced sailor can fell this about his sailboat (that he knew very well) on those conditions show the sailing potential of these boats in bad weather as well it shows how unusual it was that type of breakage.

These guys, I mean IMOCA sailors have something good for them, they form a very tight association that rules the way the boats are developed and modified. This accident will be investigated even if the boat is lost. The JK project of Stamm's boat, in what regards hull and structure safety margins will be compared with the other class projects where an incident like this never happened and if the problem has to do with a too fragile boat and not with a building defect, minimum mandatory factors will be implemented for hull and structure as they had already been implemented for the keel.

That boat had passed for much worse than that and I would wait with interest the developments of this case in what regards this investigation. Anyway Stamm's boat had suffered along the years several unusual problems and that only makes it more interesting: A not reliable building, a not reliable project or other factors?

Regards

Paulo*


----------



## Maine Sail

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Jon,

Do that, for that long a duration, with some cruising boats and it's now an artificial reef for crabs.... When younger I broached in some old CCA boats during racing and they take on water pretty darn fast even when righted quickly.....


----------



## Minnesail

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Hess, What you say does not make sense. I don't know nothing about bicycles but I do know that there are 15 year old Open 60's still racing after having made 4 or 5 racing circumnavigations and much more racing Transats, boats with hundreds of thousands of miles, boats that have sustained more stress than any cruising boat during their entire life...and that are still around waiting for the next Five Ocean's race.
> 
> That would not would be possible if this was true: *"hit an open 60 hull the right way and you can easily crack it, carbon fiber is fiddly ... they are strong only in certain angles."*


Didn't this whole thread get started because a carbon fiber boat got hit in just the wrong spot and broke the **** in half?

Carbon fiber is very strong, but it is also prone to odd cracks when stressed the wrong way. It's a relatively new material, and I think this incident shows that it can fail sometimes.


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Hess, What you say does not make sense. I don't know nothing about bicycles but I do know that there are 15 year old Open 60's still racing after having made 4 or 5 racing circumnavigations and much more racing Transats, boats with hundreds of thousands of miles, boats that have sustained more stress than any cruising boat during their entire life...and that are still around waiting for the next Five Ocean's race.
> 
> That would not would be possible if this was true: *"hit an open 60 hull the right way and you can easily crack it, carbon fiber is fiddly ... they are strong only in certain angles."*
> 
> Carbon fiber is just the strongest and more durable material around with the disadvantage of being an expensive one. Because it is so strong you can make lighter boats as strong as heavier boats on any other material, namely fiberglass.
> 
> Nothing better to do a strong boat than carbon. How strong it will not depend on the material itself (that is the strongest) but on the load factors used.
> 
> Many maxi luxury yachts with 100ft are today built in Carbon, not because it is the more racing appropriated material but because it is the best material, if we take not price in consideration and some of those buyers just want the best, regardless of price.
> 
> If you do a Westsail 32 in Carbon with the same weight of a fiberglass one, you would have a boat many times stronger....and a huge waste
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo, carbon does have limitations. One of the earliest applications of it in sailing was rudder stocks. Many of them broke because the fibers had not been correctly oriented for the stresses they experienced. Once they were constructed with the correct orientation the problem was solved.

Considering the localized and angular stresses on a bike frame I'm sure it would be easy to experience cracking if the layup was not oriented exactly right.


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Minnesail said:


> Carbon fiber is very strong, but it is also prone to odd cracks when stressed the wrong way. It's a relatively new material, and I think this incident shows that it can fail sometimes.


Carbon fiber is not the only material that can fail, sometimes 

MSC Monterey Suffers Crack Off Canada ? UPDATE | gCaptain ? Maritime & Offshore News

A Look Back: MOL Comfort Incident Photos [25 PHOTOS] | gCaptain ? Maritime & Offshore News


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Minnesail said:


> Didn't this whole thread get started because a carbon fiber boat got hit in just the wrong spot and broke the **** in half?
> 
> Carbon fiber is very strong, but it is also prone to odd cracks when stressed the wrong way. It's a relatively new material, and I think this incident shows that it can fail sometimes.


A new material?????
You have been distracted on the last 50 years

The History of Carbon Fiber & How It's Being Used TodayHj3 Composite Technologies

Regards

Paulo


----------



## christian.hess

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



Minnesail said:


> Didn't this whole thread get started because a carbon fiber boat got hit in just the wrong spot and broke the **** in half?
> 
> Carbon fiber is very strong, but it is also prone to odd cracks when stressed the wrong way. It's a relatively new material, and I think this incident shows that it can fail sometimes.


I have avoided all contact with said person for the simple reason that stubborness in my opinion equals stupidity when you only see your point of view

thinking outside the box is a chefs motto as other career mottos too...for me if there is a different way of thinking that even though is not BETTER(in your view) its still valid and should be respected...

when respect is lost for all thoughts and principles besides your own you become ignorant...

I offered the bicycle racing frame scenario in order to EDUCATE certain people who think they know it all

15 years old(for a boat) is pretty damn new in my book,for a racing boat yeah ok well seasoned... I should add that also.

my point was carbon fiber has very different characterstics than steel or aluminum or glass...they are very very strong on linear pull but bend them or hit them just right and they sometimes explode right in front of you.

this has been proven many times in the bicycling industry and even the motorcycle industry so once again for somebody who shall remain nameless to say I do not make sense YET AGAIN or ignorant or wrong just goes to show HOW BLINDFOLDED and dumb(stubborn) one can be

again my thoughts on stuff like this comes from experience in racing, being a former national saliing team coach, having restored wooden and glass boats and noticed how racing and cruising boats are so damn different

again I STRESS DIFFERENT USEAGE

saying one boat is designed BETTER than the other just shows how little imagination you have with regards to everything else a design entails.

Ill end it for good here

peace


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Paulo, carbon does have limitations. One of the earliest applications of it in sailing was rudder stocks. Many of them broke because the fibers had not been correctly oriented for the stresses they experienced. Once they were constructed with the correct orientation the problem was solved.
> 
> Considering the localized and angular stresses on a bike frame I'm sure it would be easy to experience cracking if the layup was not oriented exactly right.


Yes of course, you are talking about defective building techniques. All materials should be used correctly but one thing is to say that they have inherent weaknesses other is to say they were badly used. I doubt that it would be that the case with Stamm's boat that was built by a very specialized shipyard.

Nasa would not be using it in spacecrafts for many years if it was a fragile material with inherent weaknesses

This is an old fighter but the first one to use carbon wings (F18):



New untried technology with hidden defects? I don't thing so

Used only on racing boats....think again:






SY Sarissa - Vitters Shipyard from Vitters Shipyard on Vimeo.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Carbon must not be too weak in some angles etc, or the sail makers would not be telling me to NOT fold my carbon stringed sails! the folds can weaken, making the sail shape not be as it is supposed to. The recommend rolling.

I'm not going to say carbon is not strong, quite contrary for its wt to strength, VERY STRONG! But like a lot of items, I do believe if you use it wrong, the wrong way, hit it incorrectly as made. it is and can be very weak.

With this in mind........I would still take if reasonably affordable, a lighter wt carbon hulled boat over a heavier fiberglass/epoxy hulled boat..........

But like all things great and small, it must be designed correctly, or it WILL fail. May even fail after useage too. Boeing seems to be having an issue with some of its OLDEST planes if some area's are not fixed and repaired. Or look at older wooden boats. if rot is not repaired, it can get pretty weak.......same could be said for carbon stringed sails, if the strings break due to folding......sail is not as strong as it was........

Marty


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Yes of course, you are talking about defective building techniques. All materials should be used correctly but one thing is to say that they have inherent weaknesses other is to say they were badly used. I doubt that it would be that the case with Stamm's boat that was built by a very specialized shipyard.
> 
> Nasa would not be using it in spacecrafts for many years if it was a fragile material with inherent weaknesses
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Carbon DOES have inherent weaknesses that must be accounted for in their use. Their strength is primarily tensile with compression being a "weakness". This is probably where bike frames run into problems.

They are susceptible to UV and require protection from it - like most plastics.

Finally and most critically, their fatigue life is not known or well understood - likely the situation behind Stamm's "front falling off".

CF's are quite remarkable but no matter what your opinion of them is, they are still fairly experimental in a large number of applications. They simply have not been in widespread use long enough for all their strengths & weaknesses to be fully understood.


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Carbon is not the bulletproof cureall miracle material some would like it to be. Captain Stamm and his crew survived -- this time. The next crew -- who knows?



pcp said:


> Nasa would not be using it in spacecrafts for many years if it was a fragile material with inherent weaknesses


NASA management murdered seven astronauts when they disallowed in-flight investigation of a launchtime debris strike by a one-pound foam chunk on a left wing *carbon* panel. Had they known about the damage, the astronauts could have jury-rigged defensive repairs and maneuvered the ship to protect the damaged wing during re-entry. If the damage was too severe, they may have been able to get to ISS, wait for repair parts or a ride home. They would have had a chance. Instead, the bean-counters and publicity hounds sent them blindly to their deaths.

"After the launch, some engineers suspected the damage, but NASA managers limited the investigation, under the rationale that the Columbia crew could not have fixed the problem."

"People inside and outside had been noticing the shift and raising objections to increasingly careless management choices, as front-line workers were overruled for schedule and budget reasons."

Columbia disaster

Columbia infographic

Columbia

Columbia warning


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

NASA managers have f##ked up more than once, at the cost of others lives.

Who, for example, came up with the genius idea to have the original Apollo capsule have a *pressurized pure oxygen* environment? This in a capsule with about 5000 miles of electrical wiring in it.

That cost Grissom, White & Chaffee their lives.

A grade 8 science student would have known better.


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> NASA managers have f##ked up more than once, at the cost of others lives.
> 
> Who, for example, came up with the genius idea to have the original Apollo capsule have a *pressurized pure oxygen* environment? This in a capsule with about 5000 miles of electrical wiring in it.
> 
> That cost Grissom, White & Chaffee their lives.
> 
> A grade 8 science student would have known better.


Not to mention a spacecraft filled with flammable materials, and a hatch that took something like two minutes to open.

They knew for years that the SRB design on the Shuttle was defective, but did nothing until Challenger exploded, killing the seven crewmembers.

Complacency kills people. Just because a boat has sailed around the world doesn't mean it is fit to do it again. Safety has to be a pro-active, pre-emptive process, not a hope that everything is OK because nothing has broken yet.


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> Not to mention a spacecraft filled with flammable materials, and a hatch that took something like two minutes to open.
> 
> They knew for years that the SRB design on the Shuttle was defective, but did nothing until Challenger exploded, killing the seven crewmembers.
> 
> Complacency kills people. Just because a boat has sailed around the world doesn't mean it is fit to do it again. Safety has to be a pro-active, pre-emptive process, not a hope that everything is OK because nothing has broken yet.


Damn, it's a good thing Stamm and his crew survived, otherwise we'd likely be seeing Juan K brought up on _MURDER_ charges, eh?

I don't know why you guys seem so determined to ignore the very strong probability that the failure was a consequence of the collision and subsequent repair after the boat was abandoned in the 2011 Transat J-V...

Rescue off Scilly Isles. Bernard Stamm? - Ocean Racing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums


----------



## bobperry

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Monday morning quarterbacks with everything all figured out. After the fact.
Exactly why I watch almost all sports on TV with the sound muted.


----------



## blt2ski

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Jon,

Not to sound like another monday morning QB, but considering the "What Happened" with the "CynthiaB?!?!?!?!" ie the boat with the texas college students in the race that lost a keel etc. The end result blame was put on the repairs from groundings past IIRC.....Not that I want to go thru the what I recall 100+ pages from the CG etc....

Sheet like this occurs, when you think things are fixed, but stuff you can not see is still broken injured or otherwise. Then things break again, but in a more catastrophic manner!

marty


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> Damn, it's a good thing Stamm and his crew survived, otherwise we'd likely be seeing Juan K brought up on _MURDER_ charges, eh?
> 
> I don't know why you guys seem so determined to ignore the very strong probability that the failure was a consequence of the collision and subsequent repair after the boat was abandoned in the 2011 Transat J-V...
> 
> Rescue off Scilly Isles. Bernard Stamm? - Ocean Racing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums


Believe it or not but out for fairness. The description that Stamm gave at the time about that 2011 accident referred a water entry on the forward part of the boat and the boat now broke not at the bow but at the middle, on the daggerboard zone so I believed that both accidents were not related...till I saw this movie regarding the repair of the hole caused by that collision:






and we can see that is not on the frontal part of the boat (0.22 on the movie) but that the damage goes till the dagerboard zone, where the boat broke.

So I think you are right and that the probability of that accident to be caused by a bad repair on a previous damage is very high.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



bobperry said:


> Monday morning quarterbacks with everything all figured out. After the fact.
> Exactly why I watch almost all sports on TV with the sound muted.


We *don't* have everything figured out. That's the problem. We're not ignoring anything. We're saying when masts keep failing, rudders breaking, and keels keep falling off, there is a systemic failure to adequately address the underlying causes. Captain Stamms' boat should have been *stronger than new* after the repairs.


----------



## bobperry

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

"We're saying when masts keep failing, rudders breaking, and keels keep falling off, there is a systemic failure to adequately address the underlying causes"

Did you consider that in the world of gran prix racing yachts everything possible is being done to reduce weight? "Engineering" relies upon accurate identification of the loads. That is darn difficult with a sailing machine. The ocean is volitile and unpredictable at times. The deigners could increase safety factors but then they are in a grey area and adding weight. I think it is inevitable that racing yachts designed to compete at this level will break.

Marty:
I was an expert witness on the Texas case. Sad story.

But carry on. I am simply a casual observer to all of this.


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



bobperry said:


> "We're saying when masts keep failing, rudders breaking, and keels keep falling off, there is a systemic failure to adequately address the underlying causes"
> 
> Did you consider that in the world of gran prix racing yachts everything possible is being done to reduce weight? "Engineering" relies upon accurate identification of the loads. That is darn difficult with a sailing machine. The ocean is volitile and unpredictable at times. The deigners could increase safety factors but then they are in a grey area and adding weight. *I think it is inevitable that racing yachts designed to compete at this level will break.*


Yup, probably almost as inevitable as rudders failing on Catalinas in a Salty Dawg Rally...


----------



## Jaramaz

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



> We're saying when masts keep failing, rudders breaking, and keels keep falling off, there is a systemic failure to adequately address the underlying causes.


Uhumm, as masts, rudders, keels doesn't happen to other boats?

Breaking the boat in two is something else. Unusual, from what I know. Not unheard of, but unusual. 
(As, during a hard race around here during the 1960-ies at least one very well-built S&S 36 ft broke up in pieces).



> Captain Stamms' boat should have been *stronger than new* after the repairs.


From what I have understood, repairing carbon fibers is extremely difficult. 
I agree with Paulo & Co, that most likely this repairment is the origin to the break-up of Stamms boat. 
Has then very little to do with this class of boats. Not a good basis for generalisations.

/J


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> ... Dragsters and Dragster races are something that has a big appeal to Americans but very little to Europeans that prefer more skillful types of races, like F1 or WRC....


Can you leave out such primitive stereotyping comments, please? This is a prime example of the oh-so-sophisticated Europeans looking down on the oh-so-primitive American brutes. We can do without that, thank you very much.

For the record, I am American and dragster racing has zero appeal to me. But you will not find me making snide remarks about the sports Europeans like, or Blacks, or Jews.


----------



## bobperry

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Schotbruch:
Thank you for posting that. I agree. A post like that says far more about the poster than it does about the true subject matter. But I find it rather typical and ignorant. I have zero interest in drag racing also. In fact, come to think of it, I dont know anyone who is interestred in drag racing at all. But I have only lived here for 55 years.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Can you leave out such primitive stereotyping comments, please? This is a prime example of the oh-so-sophisticated Europeans looking down on the oh-so-primitive American brutes. We can do without that, thank you very much.
> 
> For the record, I am American and dragster racing has zero appeal to me. But you will not find me making snide remarks about the sports Europeans like, or Blacks, or Jews.


Who said that dragster race is a primitive thing? I only said that they are popular in America (that's why there are lots of them there) and not very popular in Europe. What has that to do with blacks and jews?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



bobperry said:


> "We're saying when masts keep failing, rudders breaking, and keels keep falling off, there is a systemic failure to adequately address the underlying causes"
> 
> Did you consider that in the world of gran prix racing yachts everything possible is being done to reduce weight? "Engineering" relies upon accurate identification of the loads. That is darn difficult with a sailing machine. The ocean is volitile and unpredictable at times. The deigners could increase safety factors but then they are in a grey area and adding weight. I think it is inevitable that racing yachts designed to compete at this level will break.
> 
> Marty:
> I was an expert witness on the Texas case. Sad story.
> 
> But carry on. I am simply a casual observer to all of this.


But you design and build boats, you have far more knowledge and experience than we Monday-morning quarterbacks do. We would appreciate and could use your input.

Which slows you more, a few more kilograms of boat, or losing your mast in the Southern Ocean?

Running things consistently near their tolerance is a recipe for trouble.

An example of my own experience: 
We had a problem with wheelchairs losing motor power and burning connector contacts in battery and motor cables. I took some damaged ones apart & found that the spring holding the contact in place had melted its way down into the plastic connector housing. The connectors were rated for 10 amps and the motors not supposed to draw more than 8. There's a lot of deep grass and soft sand down here in South Florida, they'll put an extra load on anything, and many of my customers were active young guys, not stay-at-homes. On one of my days off, I went to an electronics store by the airport and bought some 60-amp connectors. I explained to my boss and customer what I wanted to do, and why. Installed the new connectors on motors and battery cables. Worked like a charm. I showed the manufacturers' reps what I'd done, and a year or two later the heavy-duty connectors were industry-standard.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Who said that dragster race is a primitive thing?
> Paulo


*You* said it. Or what else do you mean by saying that it is 'not skillfull' and therefore only suitable for Americans but not for Europeans?



PCP said:


> What has that to do with blacks and jews?
> 
> Paulo


Do I have to spell it out again? You are stereotyping people. I would think that Europeans would have learned with what happened over there in the 20th century where that can lead.


----------



## outbound

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Great story but isn't that what sophisticated race boats are suppose to for us cruisers. Something breaks . Next time around they make it better. Still there is a dynamic.CF is stronger then " tradition" core which is stronger per weight then solid glass. Even knowing this solid grp is the easiest to fix. So some us Luddite beer swilling nascar watching Yankee doodles still build new boats in solid grp. 
By the way Paulo I fit every stereotype and heritage mentioned above. With initials after my name from multiple Ivy League schools believe I have some small measure of sophistication.
My mom was an art teacher. Ended up setting the curriculum for NYC . Got a presidents award. She was very pedantic. My dad and sibling didn't listen to her much. You seem a gentleman. Look forward to an apology.
Regards


----------



## outbound

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Paulo I live. In southern New England . My earliest academic publications were concerning a genetic disease seen in folks from the Azores. I known many folks of mainland and island descent. Part of my family is from the. Iberian peninsula . My sister had assess to a genetics lab and spent time researching family records. Like me and Spinoza you might want to investigate. You may find your mitochondrial or nuclear DNA carries Jewish and African genes.
Regards


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

*Originally Posted by PCP :
Who said that dragster race is a primitive thing? 
*



MastUndSchotbruch said:


> *You* said it (. Or what else do you mean by saying that it is 'not skillful' and therefore only suitable for Americans but not for Europeans?
> 
> Do I have to spell it out again? You are stereotyping people. I would think that Europeans would have learned with what happened over there in the 20th century where that can lead.


I resent to being "quoted" about what I didn't said. I repeat I never called Drag racing primitive. To say otherwise It is not nice and not honest to say the least.

I called that type of competition "crude", it is a personal opinion and I said it was about brute power and that seems accurate to me.

Taking a huge power from an engine even for some seconds has nothing of primitive and it is a technical accomplishment, as I had already said.

That drag racing has much more to do with a technical accomplishment then with skill seems clear to me.

That Europeans prefer more technical and skillful forms of racing seems obvious. F1 is clearly the European's preferred type of race the one where the more skillful pilots are, the one more advanced technologically and even if it is a major event all over the world has a lot of difficulty in find acceptance in the US were most still prefer oval races and comparatively low tech Nascar cars.

What I said regarding dragsters on the contest of a comparison with AC trimarans was this:



PCP said:


> Your vision about these boats and the comparative reliability of the boats that made the first Challenge around the world is not according with reality.
> 
> First of all these are racing boats and therefore the reliability is a compromise regarding weight and speed but they were not designed to "*to go as fast as possible shorthanded - period....Until something breaks, ...They are the counterpart to Top Fuel dragsters*" neither they are comparable to top fuel dragsters that are designed to make some hundreds of meters reaching top speed.
> 
> &#8230;.a dragster goes straight ahead and just for some seconds. The AC cats go for a considerable time around a course with many different changes of direction. In fact F1 is a much fairer comparison, not only in what regards changes of direction around a course as well as in what regards racing time and top high technology&#8230;
> 
> Drag racing is crude. Who cares about brute power? Around here we care about skill&#8230;
> 
> you are right about not being interested or not knowing about dragsters but I was not trying to take way the technical achievement of taking a huge power from an engine for some seconds. Call it brutal acceleration on a straight line or whatever it is more adequate. Dragsters and Dragster races are something that has a big appeal to Americans but very little to Europeans that prefer more skillful types of races, like F1 or WRC.


Why are you discussing this that only was refereed regarding a comparison that someone made regarding sailboats and dragsters?

regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



outbound said:


> ...
> By the way Paulo I fit every stereotype and heritage mentioned above. With initials after my name from multiple Ivy League schools believe I have some small measure of sophistication.
> My mom was an art teacher. Ended up setting the curriculum for NYC . Got a presidents award. She was very pedantic. My dad and sibling didn't listen to her much. You seem a gentleman. Look forward to an apology.
> Regards


Can I know what you are talking about? I never talked about Blacks and Jews, I asked why someone else was talking about Blacks and Jews regarding an answer to a post of mine, this guy on this post:



MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Can you leave out such primitive stereotyping comments, please? This is a prime example of the oh-so-sophisticated Europeans looking down on the oh-so-primitive American brutes. We can do without that, thank you very much.
> 
> For the record, I am American and dragster racing has zero appeal to me. But you will not find me making snide remarks about the sports Europeans like, or Blacks, or Jews.


Before accusing someone of something you should be sure of what you are accusing people for. I know that I have never had in any circumstances made any racist comment so I guess that is you that should apologize for accusing me for something I never did.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Man:
You are correct and because I work in this field everyday I try to be cautious before pointing my finger. For me to come to a conclusion on that failure would require a lot more background information than we have here. Then I would have my own long list of questions. Then I would need some quiet time to sit and think about the particulars. Then I'd have another list of questions. And maybe then I would come to a conclusion.

I can't say anymore about this particular failure. I simply don't know wneough at this time. But I am learning more and more by reading the thread.

Paulo:
Yes, your comments, regardless of how you intended them to be taken (I can't know that) do sound like typical, European stereotyping of Americans. I understand that it's popular for some Europeans to put all Americans into one basket but it is far from an accurate reality.

Take me for example. I am a totally strange guy. The only people that like me are my dogs.


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> But you design and build boats, you have far more knowledge and experience than we Monday-morning quarterbacks do. We would appreciate and could use your input.
> 
> Which slows you more, a few more kilograms of boat, or losing your mast in the Southern Ocean?


And, what costs more, spending more for a more robust build up front, or going with a more ordinary coastal cruiser that loses a rig, or rudder, 200 miles into a rally to the Caribbean?



manatee said:


> Running things consistently near their tolerance is a recipe for trouble.


It appears you don't understand the inherent tradeoffs involved in racing at an elite level, and missed the point of what Bob was trying to convey... If only it were so simple, that the fine line between risk and reward in design and construction, and then subjecting them to one of the most fluid, dynamic, and unpredictable environments on earth, could be so easily and precisely determined in advance...

At sea, things will continue to fail or break for no apparent reason... Most people would consider a Hylas 70, for example, to generally be built like a tank, capable of taking whatever Neptune might be able to dish out during it's intended use... And yet, one lost its rig last summer on a perfect sailing day on Penobscot Bay, after clobbering a ledge...

Sure, that shouldn't have happened... But, it did - and yet the fact that it did, is not necessarily proof that the boat was under-engineered or built to begin with, there could have been a full range of mitigating factors that none of us here likely know about...


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



bobperry said:


> ....
> Paulo:
> Yes, your comments, regardless of how you intended them to be taken (I can't know that) do sound like typical, European stereotyping of Americans. I understand that it's popular for some Europeans to put all Americans into one basket but it is far from an accurate reality.
> 
> Take me for example. I am a totally strange guy. The only people that like me are my dogs.


That goes both ways, like Americans stereotopyng Europeans but anyway even if one is accused of that the causation should be explicit regarding what is the subject of the stereotype. The accusation can be true or unfounded. Certainly it is unfounded regarding Blacks and Jews since I never talked about them

As your example, you are a native Australian so it is natural you are a peculiar American

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> ...
> Which slows you more, a few more kilograms of boat, or losing your mast in the Southern Ocean?
> 
> ...


The answer to this is so obvious that I do no resist to reply. Those boats are made to win races. You don't win races if the mast or anything else breaks in the middle.

These are very long races, a full circumnavigation without outside help. The boats have to be very strong to due that racing without breaking and if they break they lose but you don't win if your boat is relatively more heavy then the boat of your competitor. all sailors are very good and if the boats are not very similar in performance the one with the faster/lighter boat wins.

So in this races they try to have the lightest possible boat that can be strong enough to sustain the huge efforts of sailing near 30K on some of the worst seas of the planet. Giving those circumstances the reliability of the boats is very good.

Last year we had a grand finale as we did not saw in many years and after having done almost a full circumnavigation, with tired boats and tired skippers we had two racers almost side by side pushing the boats beyond the reasonable for many thousands of miles to achieve victory: None of the boats broke and I honestly sought that one of them was going to break.

These boats are so powerful that the power has to be managed according with the sea conditions not to break the boat and before you start to argue about this let me say that is common with any top power racing machine, boats, cars or motorcycles. On F1 for instance they have a direct communication with the pilot from the boxes saying to him what he can do and what he can't in what regards the engine (the engine is monitored).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

In a repari like done on this boat. and other types of vehicles. the issue becomes, can we humans, even x-ray machines etc see the WHOLE damage(d) area as to what needs to be repaired, and how.

It becomes a fix it, hope it holds together no matter what.......

An SC70 was holed locally a few years back. While it is repaired..........the basic overall boat will probably never be the same. Yeah they found an old mold, got it, cut it up to patch the hole etc. BUT, this particular boat will never again at least overall safe and sanely be able to race at 20+ knots down wind etc with a race crew, full power under spin and main along with hopping if you will wave to wave as some of the higher speed boats can do. Be it sail or power!

The potential here is that this boat should (potentially) not have been out crossing oceans etc any more. More of a local coastal cruiser style work would be ok, but even as depowered as it was........something was probably stressed during the initial grounding/hitting of something, not seen, left broken, as such, in the conditions the boat was in, it was ripe for breaking apart.

Probably why a lot of cars/trucks these days, the body repair places replace everything with new vs trying to straighten/bondo things together. You can never put it back to 100% that way, only 80-90%. Even 99% may not be good enough vs 100%.

Marty


----------



## bobperry

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Paulo:
I was born in Toldedo, Ohio. You need to buy my book.
But I did grow up in Australia so you are pretty much correct in that.

I am an American.

Did you get that magazine?
PM me your mailing address. I'll send you one of my cartoon calendars.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> I was born in Toldedo, Ohio. You need to buy my book.
> But I did grow up in Australia so you are pretty much correct in that.
> 
> I am an American.
> 
> Did you get that magazine?
> PM me your mailing address. I'll send you one of my cartoon calendars.


Even if you had come has a kid to America I am pretty sure you would be and feel an American, I was just kidding.

Has I had said I have posted about that article and the boat on the interesting boat thread recently. The boat found the owners that it deserved, a famous live aboard Germany Family that has being cruising and circumnavigating on the last 7 years. They have changed their old steel boat, the iron lady for the boat you designed and was made in Holland.

I don't have the magazine but I have posted plenty of photos. The boat is nicer than when it was new I am sure I have posted less than a month ago. Go back on the thread and you will found it. They seem very satisfied with the new boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Again, I am not referring to Captain Stamm's boat, it obviously is a special case. I'm referring to Paulo's 5% failure rate in this type of boat during a circumnavigation

Rather than Formula 1 racing, I think these boats are in something comparable to the off-road Baja peninsula races. Sorry Paulo, I don't know a European equivalent.

Bob: Sounds like a good plan. Too bad they couldn't save the hull,- the forensic analysis would have been fascinating. Have you built with carbon, or have some familiarity with it? From the little I've read, it's subject to cyclic stress induced failure, and there's no good way of predicting it. And cyclic stress is one thing there's plenty of on a sailboat. Anyone dogs like can't be all bad. Think how boring the world would be without us weirdos. 

Jon: I understand the weight/speed thing. If the boats were crewed by robots it wouldn't matter so much to me. These aren't off-the-shelf coastal-cruising picnic boats. You're sending crews out in boats *that are advertised to be tough enough to complete a circumnavigation* that have a one-in-twenty chance of suffering a catastrophic gear failure. If I sold cars like that, there'd be more lawyers and government agencies on my back than you could count. How long would Boeing last if 5% of their planes dropped an engine mid-flight?

(That's the editorial "You", by the way.)


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> Again, I am not referring to Captain Stamm's boat, it obviously is a special case. I'm referring to Paulo's 5% failure rate in this type of boat during a circumnavigation
> 
> Rather than Formula 1 racing, I think these boats are in something comparable to the off-road Baja peninsula races. Sorry Paulo, I don't know a European equivalent.


I agree, the equivalent had already been utilized by me. Paris-Dakar rally racers. In fact Paris-Dakar is though than a Baja, being like a Baja that lasts for 15 days. but In fact this race is much more though than a Paris-Dakar where they can remake the cars each night. Here there are no outside help and the race instead of 15 days lasts for almost 90.



manatee said:


> .. I understand the weight/speed thing. If the boats were crewed by robots it wouldn't matter so much to me. These aren't off-the-shelf coastal-cruising picnic boats. You're sending crews out in boats *that are advertised to be tough enough to complete a circumnavigation* that have a one-in-twenty chance of suffering a catastrophic gear failure. *If I sold cars like that, there'd be more lawyers and government agencies on my back than you could count. How long would Boeing last if 5% of their planes dropped an engine mid-flight?*


You continue to think about these boats has if the were cruising boats. They are not they are RACING BOATS. Compare the percentage of retirement in the Paris-Dakar, or even on a Baja 1000 and you will see that it will not be smaller, quite the contrary, it will be higher.

These boats are not "driven" prudently as a cruising boat would, but pushing the limits to win.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> ...
> If I sold cars like that, there'd be more lawyers and government agencies on my back than you could count. How long would Boeing last if 5% of their planes dropped an engine mid-flight?


These are race boats and the guys and ladys driving them are essentially test pilots!
What has it to do with cars and planes us normals are moving in and with, sometimes not out of our own free will?
How many race cars break apart in an off road endurance race like the paris-dakar or the baja peninsula?
You see any lawers sueing the designers, engineers or mechanics?

Half of the people here do not race and only seek safety and take this example to raise their finger and say something on the lines of: i always knew it! These boats and speeds are just unhealthy - better to stop it!
At least so it seems...
Just keep in mind that there are people out there who wish to do that and are willing to take risks and those people define how 'weak' a construction is acceptable!


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> You continue to think about these boats has if the were cruising boats. They are not they are RACING BOATS. Compare the percentage of retirement in the Paris-Dakar, or even on a Baja 1000 and you will see that it will not be smaller, quite the contrary, it will be higher.
> 
> These boats are not "driven" prudently as a cruising boat would, but pushing the limits to win.
> 
> Regards Paulo


There's one essential difference - in the Baja or Dakar, when something goes wrong, they wait at the side of the road for their support crew to come and pick them up.

You have the all too common attitude that the statement "we're racing" explains away everything.


----------



## outbound

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

That's the key.Paulo's right. They are race boats being raced by professional racers. They are cognizant of the risks and accept them. I doubt in this highly charged competitive environment they would publicly share any details that might give competitors an advantage. We are Monday-morning quarterbacks and don't know the injury status of the players.


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



capt vimes said:


> How many race cars break apart in an off road endurance race like the paris-dakar or the baja peninsula?
> You see any lawers sueing the designers, engineers or mechanics?


Actually, they do - IIRC there were people charged with manslaughter when Senna died.


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



manatee said:


> Again, I am not referring to Captain Stamm's boat, it obviously is a special case. I'm referring to Paulo's 5% failure rate in this type of boat during a circumnavigation
> 
> Rather than Formula 1 racing, I think these boats are in something comparable to the off-road Baja peninsula races. Sorry Paulo, I don't know a European equivalent.
> 
> ...
> 
> Jon: I understand the weight/speed thing. If the boats were crewed by robots it wouldn't matter so much to me. These aren't off-the-shelf coastal-cruising picnic boats. You're sending crews out in boats *that are advertised to be tough enough to complete a circumnavigation* that have a one-in-twenty chance of suffering a catastrophic gear failure. If I sold cars like that, there'd be more lawyers and government agencies on my back than you could count. How long would Boeing last if 5% of their planes dropped an engine mid-flight?


I'd drop the motor sports analogies if I were you, they're not doing much to advance your argument 

In the most recent Baja 1000, only *46 %* of the entrants made it to the finish...

In the 2013 Paris Dakar Rally, only *51 %* made it to the end...

BTW, in the 31 editions of Paris-Dakar, a total of *25* competitors have been killed... Damn, these Vendee and other RTW races are sounding safer all the time...


----------



## hellosailor

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

" How long would Boeing last if 5% of their planes dropped an engine mid-flight?"
Ergh, they'd last as long as they have lasted, actually. There's a long history of aircraft coming apart in flight, of losing engines in flight, of all sorts of scary engineering failures when aircraft are (were) new. Not just Boeing, but Lockheed and everyone else in the business. You may recall the new Boeing Dreamliner has had battery fires and an emergency beacon fire, none explained, but they're still flying. Boeing's 747's regularly caught fire and burned from center fuel tank spark problems, TWA800 was actually about the twelfth one to go that way, the first one documented in the air while just a month or so earlier, one went up in flames on the ground in Thailand as I recall.

Or the Airbus that lost it's tail and crashed out of JFK/NY in 2002(?).

But the point should be that engineering is always done to a spec. If you're building an unlimited budget America's Cup boat, you tell the engineer "we stop racing at 20 knots" and he'll build the boat strong enough to withstand maybe 25 knots. Above that point, it is EXPECTED to break. And since racing skippers usually push the boat until it breaks, regardless of the spec...Surely I'm not the only one who has heard "If you don't break anything, you're not racing" ?

Breaking a monohull in half though...Shades of the Edmund Fitzgerald.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> There's one essential difference - in the Baja or Dakar, when something goes wrong, they wait at the side of the road for their support crew to come and pick them up.
> 
> You have the all too common attitude that the statement "we're racing" explains away everything.


If you want to talk about the dangers involved you should know that many more racers died on the Paris Dakar than in the vendee Globe. Any kind of sport has its risks, offshore long range sail racing and desert rally racing, F1 or motorcycle road racing. Racers do it knowing the risks they are taking and try to minimize them to a minimum.

It seems that for you racing should be banned because it involves risks. It is not you that are risking but it is you that are taking advantage in your cruising boat of many developments that come and were tested in sail racing before being utilized in cruising boats, to make better and safer boats

Regards

Paulo


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Actually, they do - IIRC there were people charged with manslaughter when Senna died.


Wrong
There was a trial but both defendant, adrian newey and patrick head, were not charged or found guilty... At least this is the info i have and i heard nothing different since 2005...
It was strange enough that there even WAS a trial.
Nach mehr als elf Jahren: Senna-Prozess beendet - Formel 1 bei Motorsport-Total.com


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

There is one transat being raced right now, an amateur one: Cap Town to Rio. It mixes racing boats with cruising boats and even if started only a few days ago had generated already more Madays and rescue operations than the two last professional racing circumnavigations put together.

All the boats that are in trouble and sent Maydays are cruising boats. There are already a death to regret.

Very small and light racing boats, a SF 3200 and a M34 are keeping up with the 40 to 60K winds and 20ft seas.

I have posted more on the interesting sailboat thread.


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> There is one transat being raced right now, an amateur one: Cap Town to Rio. It mixes racing boats with cruising boats and even if started only a few days ago had generated already more Madays and rescue operations than the two last professional racing circumnavigations put together.
> 
> All the boats that are in trouble and sent Maydays are cruising boats. There are already a death to regret.
> 
> Very small and light racing boats, a SF 3200 and a M34 are keeping up with the 40 to 60K winds and 20ft seas.
> 
> I have posted more on the interesting sailboat thread.


[Sarcasm]

How could that possibly happen? That fleet would have been subject to a pre-race ISAF safety inspection, would it not?

[/Sarcasm]


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> It seems that for you racing should be banned because it involves risks. Regards Paulo


You really ought to READ posts that you comment on Paulo - if you actually DID read my posts you would realize that nowhere did I state or imply that racing of any kind should be banned.

All I *EVER* said was the Southern Ocean is no place to push design & construction limits - hardly a call for the races to be banned.

Of course, to you simply stating "They're racing" explains away everything and all is right with the world.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> [Sarcasm]
> 
> How could that possibly happen? That fleet would have been subject to a pre-race ISAF safety inspection, would it not?
> 
> [/Sarcasm]


As you well know ISAF safety inspection has to do mostly with the safety equipment they carry and warrants a minimum safety requeirements. I don't think that the race, contrary with what happens in more professional transats had demanded proof of offshore competence of the boats and crews making mandatory a given large number of offshore miles made by the boat and the crew.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> ...
> 
> All I *EVER* said was the Southern Ocean is no place to push design & construction limits - hardly a call for the races to be banned.
> 
> Of course, to you simply stating "They're racing" explains away everything and all is right with the world.


What better place do you want to push design & construction limits than the most dificult seas on the planet?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

I guess you taught your kids to swim by tossing them in the deep end of the pool.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> Can I know what you are talking about? I never talked about Blacks and Jews, I asked why someone else was talking about Blacks and Jews regarding an answer to a post of mine, this guy on this post:
> 
> Before accusing someone of something you should be sure of what you are accusing people for. I know that I have never had in any circumstances made any racist comment so I guess that is you that should apologize for accusing me for something I never did.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


OK, Paulo, 'this guy on this post' does not have all day to explain things to you for the umpteenth time. If you cannot see the point, or do not _want_ to see it, I cannot help you.

For the last time, this is your quote:

Paulo


> Dragsters and Dragster races are something that has a big appeal to Americans but very little to Europeans that prefer more skillful types of races, like F1 or WRC
> Paulo


If you don't understand that a stereotyping statement like this, elevating someone like you (as one of the sophisticated Europeans) over the Americans that prefer more primitive (less skillful) sports, is offensive to the latter, I cannot help you.

If you don't see that the same would apply if you replaced Americans with Blacks, Jews, or any other group, I cannot help you either. In this country, disparaging people because of their race, ethnicity, national origin or sexual orientation is not considered cool (and resulting discrimination is usually unlawful). If you disagree with this and feel that it is your right as a European to look down upon people of other races or nationalities, it is your problem, not mine.

I'm outa here.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Yes, everything to do with Blacks and Jews.

Regarding motor racing comparison between Europe and the US I am entitled to have an opinion that is by no means only shared by Europeans. On this forum Americans wrote about that:

*" I closely followed F1 for years. Was always amazed at the level of high tech involved. We still run carburetors in NASCAR, which is a big deal here. I think many here have no idea what F1 is or how huge it is in Europe and Asia, their loss. "*

(F1) *"Oh yeah! That's the stuff . . . and rallying . . . forget nascar unless you have insomnia"*

These guys like cars and racing and that was posted on threads about racing. I do not mean that is a generalized opinion but that means that I am not alone in what regards my view of the American car racing scenario compared with the European one. And yes dragster racing is a typical American thing. Never said that it was the main body of American racing motorsport that is probably Nascar and oval racing in Indy cars, but sure, it is a type of "racing" that was born in America and that is practiced mainly in the US.

Relating this with racist opinions about Jews and Blacks is plain ridiculous


----------



## bobperry

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Drag racing is very popular in Australia. We even get Australian drag racing on US TV. But is does not appeal to either the Australian or US side of me.

I'm probably crazy but I love to see big yachts pushed to their limits in open ocean. Failures can teach us a lot about design. I think the danger involved is a healthy and acceptable part of the sport.

Can't learn much from watching Mom and Pop sail their old Rawson 30 around Lake Washington.


----------



## blt2ski

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



bobperry said:


> Can't learn much from watching Mom and Pop sail their old Rawson 30 around Lake Washington.


FALSE!!!!!!

We get to see how boring sailing can be in a slug of a boat!

Altho I have to admit, there was one a few months back, like any boat well sailed, did pretty good in a race. Then again, being in the right wind at the right time is helpful too!

Marty


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Originally Posted by PCP
> What better place do you want to push design & construction limits than the most dificult seas on the planet?
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you taught your kids to swim by tossing them in the deep end of the pool.
Click to expand...

LOL!

Yeah,and those wankers at Audi probably should have developed their diesel technology by just running around traffic cones in a parking lot, rather than subjecting them to a test like the 24 Hours of Le Mans...


----------



## zz4gta

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

PCP - I had to skip over 4 pages of back and forth, but you rational on how open 60's are stronger is flawed. You need to re-read what you typed and try and figure it out.

You don't need to input numbers, you're missing the forest through all the trees. If something has a safety factor of 8:1 as compared to 3:1, than the 8:1 will be stronger. Period.

Something tells me you've never had to spec out a critical piece of hardware or line.


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> LOL!
> 
> Yeah,and those wankers at Audi probably should have developed their diesel technology by just running around traffic cones in a parking lot, rather than subjecting them to a test like the 24 Hours of Le Mans...


Do you seriously think they didn't have it fully developed on a dyno before they spent $millions on a Le Mans program?

Back in the 60's GT40 program Ford had a computerized dyno that subjected their engines to a complete Le Mans race - 24 hours, all the gear changes and engine revs from a complete race were run countless times before they built the cars.

Do you think for a minute that Audi doesn't do that now?

They don't just jump in the deep end and see what works and what doesn't.

Most technology, especially that which will be used in dangerous conditions, is developed under controlled conditions first.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> I guess you taught your kids to swim by tossing them in the deep end of the pool.


Your comparisons are too much

First you compare an Open 60 with a F1 and now you compare a 30 year old boat type, that have been continually perfected and upgraded along the time (in speed in seaworthiness), with a very young kid that doesn't know how to swim

Regards

Paulo


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Do you seriously think they didn't have it fully developed on a dyno before they spent $millions on a Le Mans program?
> 
> Back in the 60's GT40 program Ford had a computerized dyno that subjected their engines to a complete Le Mans race - 24 hours, all the gear changes and engine revs from a complete race were run countless times before they built the cars.
> 
> Do you think for a minute that Audi doesn't do that now?
> 
> *They don't just jump in the deep end and see what works and what doesn't.
> 
> Most technology, especially that which will be used in dangerous conditions, is developed under controlled conditions first.*


Exactly... And, as Paulo suggests, do you seriously think these boats are being sent off into the Southern Ocean without any understanding whatsoever of "what works, and what doesn't", in a situation akin to throwing an infant into the deep end of a swimming pool?


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

What were the "controlled conditions" that the Open boats were developed in?

I can't recall them ever being used in inshore racing but my memory ain't what it once was.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> What were the "controlled conditions" that the Open boats were developed in?
> 
> I can't recall them ever being used in inshore racing but my memory ain't what it once was.


Boats are designed up a purpose and to a given set of sea conditions: Lake boats are designed to be sailed on lakes, inshore boats are designed to be sailed on protected waters, offshore boats are designed to be sailed offshore, Open 60's are designed to be sailed on high latitudes and therefore they can only be truly tested in high latitudes.

What would be the purpose of testing an offshore boat on a lake, or an Open boat on moderated conditions? That would be no testing. A bit like testing a F1 at 120k/h.

You seem to think that today with all knowledge and computer simulation a designer has not a pretty good idea of the abilities and capabilities, including speed and seaworthiness/resistance of a boat he is designing. Well you are wrong, if it is a good designer with a long experience on a given type of boat he knows pretty well how the boat will perform and what the boat can take.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## hellosailor

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Jon, racing is more about generating enthusiasm and marketing, than about real world development. Case in point, when the Indy 500 really ran 500 miles before they started making cutbacks to "be green" ? The engines were specifically designed to run for only 700 miles. That's 100 for break-in and practice, 500 for the race, and 100 more "just in case". And then the engines were expected to violently cease operating at the 700 mile point.

Do you think that translated in any way into mass-market engines?

That's pretty much the way all racing development is. Running flat out for 24 hours means your engine can run for 24 hours...but for the mass market, you aim for 100,000 miles, or 200,000 miles, and you have to do things very differently. Sometimes you aim for a million miles.

Audi's race development? Uh, well, apparently their 2011-2013 2.0t turbo engines used a newly developed "laser polished" cylinder wall. Guess what happened? Massive oil consumption, engine failures, lots of engine replacements. Racing development? Maybe. Real world application? FAIL.

The Southern Ocean is a meatgrinder, and that's something you want in racing. Any fool can build a boat that can outlast the Southern Ocean. any fool can build a boat that goes fast. Finding the thin line where "it goes faster than anyone else _and _doesn't break" is much harder. Skipper, builder, designer, all have to be on the same page for that to work.

But breaking a hull in half...honest, has ANYONE ever heard of that kind of failure in a sailboat? Sounds more like one of those "aliens mutilated my cattle with lasers" tales.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



hellosailor said:


> ...
> But breaking a hull in half...honest, has ANYONE ever heard of that kind of failure in a sailboat? Sounds more like one of those "aliens mutilated my cattle with lasers" tales.


----------



## capt vimes

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> Most technology, especially that which will be used in dangerous conditions, is developed under controlled conditions first.


And now please show me a 'controlled' condition on sea which had been simulated in a test tank...


----------



## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



SloopJonB said:


> What were the "controlled conditions" that the Open boats were developed in?
> 
> I can't recall them ever being used in inshore racing but my memory ain't what it once was.


Well, the Open boats have been racing in the Round Britain Race for years, for one... And, this summer's inaugural New York - Barcelona Race that kicks off the IMOCA Ocean Masters Championship will feature races between Newport and NYC, and round the bouys racing in NY Harbor in the week prior to the start:



> On Friday, at a joint press conference with the FNOB who organize the Barcelona World Race, OSM announced the "OCEAN MASTERS CHAMPIONSHIP" along with the inaugural NEW YORK-BARCELONA RACE, starting June 1st, to be held every 2 years.
> 
> The race will be managed jointly by OSM and the FNOB who have already a good experience with organizing a race from New York. The program has the boats going to Newport RI at the end of May with a race to NYC with media onboard each boat on the 24th. There will be a race village at North Cove Marina and a Grand Prix on the Hudson River on the 26th. Race start is on June 1st.
> 
> Imoca | Sailing Anarchy


But, yeah, I'm sure you're right, in suggesting that no Open 60 has ever been tested or shaken down inshore, and has basically been taken straightaway to the Vendee starting line upon their launch 

Paulo has it right - F1 cars are not 'developed' by running on go-kart tracks, nor were the skis used by racers like Aksel Lund Svindal or Lindsay Vonn first tested on the bunny slopes...

Let's just agree to disagree, and accept that it's pretty difficult to simulate the conditions encountered between the Cape of Storms and Cape Horn in a "controlled" environment, and try to refrain from resorting to these sorts of analogies that hardly apply to solo RTW racing at the Grand Prix level...


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## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> Let's just agree to disagree, and accept that it's pretty difficult to simulate the conditions encountered between the Cape of Storms and Cape Horn in a "controlled" environment, and try to refrain from resorting to these sorts of analogies that hardly apply to solo RTW racing at the Grand Prix level...


Now if we could get some of the deep-pocket racing dudes together with Hollywood's finest special-effects, wind-tunnel and wave-tank folk...... 

The W.E.S.S. -- World-Equivalent Sailing Simulator -- reproduce anything from a zephyr on a millpond to a cyclone on the Southern Ocean.


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## PCP

*Stamm's boat found afloat near the French coast*

Stamm is on the way to recover his boat.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1296930-post5716.html


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## Lou452

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

That sounds hard to do a recovery even with GPS. What is the depth water temps and weather trends He will encounter. What type of ship will be used ? 
Remember I am kind of new so explain this for the layman.
Good Day, Lou


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

The boat is already being towed. Probably already at port if everything went alright. I guess you did not follow the link I posted. On interesting sailboats Thread I posted a video with the French Navy marking the boat.


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## hellosailor

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

" it's pretty difficult to simulate the conditions encountered between the Cape of Storms and Cape Horn in a "controlled" environment,"
Which in turn is why the conditions are simulated _in a simulator or on a computer_ and not in some backyard test tank. Extensive computer modeling is where engineering starts theses day, and when you are talking about something like "How many impact load cycles of what magnitude can this frp layup take before the strands break?" that's donkey work. Easily done by the donkeys (the computers) and done very well for decades now by any number of engineering applications.

What, do you think NASA builds rockets based on "Well, let's see if this one breaks up when we launch it." ? No, they run the numbers to see whether the structure can sustain the loads. If a nautical architect was designing an open-water extreme-condition racing hull based on anything without running the numbers first--he'd be a fool. And that industry isn't big enough to support fools.

More likely that boat had a flaw, from damage of one kind or another, OR it was specifically designed for a limited stress, which at some point was exceeded. The design and engineering process is pretty much a routine, and a routine that is proven to work until someone, at some point in the chain, makes a mistake.

I'd be curious to know if we ever find out what happened there.

Like the Challenger disaster: There was nothing wrong with the design or engineering, but a whole crew died because someone forgot to say "Warning: Not for use below 50F !"


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## hellosailor

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Lou, a casual look only shows he sunk off the continental shelf in the Celtic Sea, and the depths there go past 5,000 meters. So depending on the exact location, no one may be interesting in spending the money to find it, much less to recover it.

Some online research might find you the GPS position where it was lost, which would give you the depth at that location, but then again the wreck would have angled away from there as it sank. So...you draw a bigger circle and then plan the expedition.


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



hellosailor said:


> "...
> 
> I'd be curious to know if we ever find out what happened there.
> 
> ...


Now that the boat was recovered I believe that the causes will be found.

Regards

Paulo


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## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



hellosailor said:


> " it's pretty difficult to simulate the conditions encountered between the Cape of Storms and Cape Horn in a "controlled" environment,"
> 
> Which in turn is why the conditions are simulated _in a simulator or on a computer_ and not in some backyard test tank. Extensive computer modeling is where engineering starts theses day, and when you are talking about something like "How many impact load cycles of what magnitude can this frp layup take before the strands break?" that's donkey work. Easily done by the donkeys (the computers) and done very well for decades now by any number of engineering applications.


Uhhh, Juan Kouyoumdjian has designed the winning boat in the last THREE Volvo Races, or every edition of the race sailed on Volvo Open 70s... In the most recent VOR, half of the boats in the fleet were his... That all adds up to a LOT of 'real world' development and testing...

I seriously doubt he's been developing these boats in a 'backyard test tank', and I would guess he's probably had access to a computer for awhile, now...


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## manatee

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



hellosailor said:


> "
> 
> {snip}
> 
> Like the Challenger disaster: There was nothing wrong with the design or engineering, but a whole crew died because someone forgot to say "Warning: Not for use below 50F !"


 That turns out not to be the case. The Solid Rocket Booster (SRB) design was flawed from the beginning.

*From Richard Feynman's report on the loss of Challenger and her crew:*

"Finally, if we are to replace standard numerical probability usage with engineering judgment, why do we find such an enormous disparity between the management estimate and the judgment of the engineers? It would appear that, for whatever purpose, be it for internal or external consumption, the management of NASA exaggerates the reliability of its product, to the point of fantasy.

The history of the certification and Flight Readiness Reviews will not be repeated here. (See other part of Commission reports.) The phenomenon of accepting for flight, seals that had shown erosion and blow-by in previous flights, is very clear. The Challenger flight is an excellent example. There are several references to flights that had gone before. The acceptance and success of these flights is taken as evidence of safety. But erosion and blow-by are not what the design expected. They are warnings that something is wrong. The equipment is not operating as expected, and therefore there is a danger that it can operate with even wider deviations in this unexpected and not thoroughly understood way. The fact that this danger did not lead to a catastrophe before is no guarantee that it will not the next time, unless it is completely understood. When playing Russian roulette the fact that the first shot got off safely is little comfort for the next. The origin and consequences of the erosion and blow-by were not understood. They did not occur equally on all flights and all joints; sometimes more, and sometimes less. Why not sometime, when whatever conditions determined it were right, still more leading to catastrophe?"

Read his report here.


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## Lou452

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



PCP said:


> The boat is already being towed. Probably already at port if everything went alright. I guess you did not follow the link I posted. On interesting sailboats Thread I posted a video with the French Navy marking the boat.


I have not looked the link for sometime. Amazing 
Good Day. Lou


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## JonEisberg

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Interesting vid...

Apparently, the keel is still in place, amazing...


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## hellosailor

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*

Incredible! So the hull did NOT sink and is in fact now recovered?


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## PCP

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



JonEisberg said:


> Interesting vid...
> 
> Apparently, the keel is still in place, amazing...
> 
> Cheminées Poujoulat, le bateau qui ne voulait pas couler ! - YouTube


Not apparently, for sure.

Stamm dived under the boat (with the boat already on the port) and the keel and the bulb was there.


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## Lou452

*Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...*



hellosailor said:


> Incredible! So the hull did NOT sink and is in fact now recovered?


This is what I think is the mark of excellence the boat did not sink. This is a boats first job. A boat should always float. We are so smart and have such a wide array of material no boat should go to the bottom. The boat should be the life raft.
Good day, Lou


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