# Honda Guy Here...



## [email protected] (Mar 15, 2012)

Just a short intro, I am the Social Media Guy for *Honda Marine* and *Honda Power Equipment* (generators, mowers, tillers, etc.) and am here to help with any Honda-related questions.

[email protected]
Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

whoops, posted this is the other thread - here goes again..

What makes the Honda so darn good as opposed to the competition? 

I'm in the market for a boat generator, but at 1600 continuous the Honda 2000 is at the low edge of running my A/C - so I'm looking at the Yahama 2800 instead, but stuck on quality of the Honda.


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## bnaylor (Sep 24, 2011)

Hi Robert, and thanks for starting this thread. I have a fairly new Honda 5-HP 4-stroke outboard on my sailboat. It's very thrifty on fuel but has one major disappointing drawback - if left sitting for 4-weeks or so, the carb gums up and it will either fail to start or run very rough. This is a very common, recurring problem that leaves me questioning my choice of motor. My dealer says that the low speed jets in the carb are really small and prone to fouling. I always disconnect the fuel line and let the engine run out of fuel after each use. Our Arizona summer temperatures likely hasten the break-down of the fuel and the creation of gum and varnish deposits.

Starting in June, I've been running LL100 aviation gas in it, and it has gone 6-weeks between uses and still starts and runs well.

Is this the answer to my problem - av gas? Is there a better answer? Is there any downside to using av gas? Yes, it's expensive; but, I haven't missed any sailing days since using it, and it's cheaper than having my carb cleaned several times a year.

Thanks for any info that you can share.

- Bob


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

bnaylor said:


> Hi Robert, and thanks for starting this thread. I have a fairly new Honda 5-HP 4-stroke outboard on my sailboat. It's very thrifty on fuel but has one major disappointing drawback - if left sitting for 4-weeks or so, the carb gums up and it will either fail to start or run very rough. This is a very common, recurring problem that leaves me questioning my choice of motor. My dealer says that the low speed jets in the carb are really small and prone to fouling. I always disconnect the fuel line and let the engine run out of fuel after each use. Our Arizona summer temperatures likely hasten the break-down of the fuel and the creation of gum and varnish deposits.
> 
> Starting in June, I've been running LL100 aviation gas in it, and it has gone 6-weeks between uses and still starts and runs well.
> 
> ...


That's not a honda problem, it's physics. The jets are the size the have to be. All small motors are having problems like this nowadays. The solution is to avoid gasoline with Ethanol in it. AV gas is one way but there is probably a cheaper alternative. see Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada for a station near you.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

chucklesR said:


> whoops, posted this is the other thread - here goes again..
> 
> What makes the Honda so darn good as opposed to the competition?
> 
> I'm in the market for a boat generator, but at 1600 continuous the Honda 2000 is at the low edge of running my A/C - so I'm looking at the Yahama 2800 instead, but stuck on quality of the Honda.


Yeah! I got another ***** Robert! When I first got my boat the 65hp engine was so loud you couldn't hear the person sitting next to you.

I switched it to a Honda 20.

First problem was that the Honda was way lighter, but also faster with more power, your product just makes no sense whatsoever.

But then as if that weren't bad enough one day I got distracted at the boat launch and just drove the 3 blocks home without latching down the back of the boat. When I went back to tie it down I discovered That Damned honda was running the whole time. It's too damned quiet. And it really should have been damaged running for 15 min or so with no cooling. But nothing, nada, not even the impeller broke.

So please get that stuff sorted and then maybe you'll have a competative product to sell.

I'm not buying anymore damned Hondas though because the ones I have won't break. What the hell man!? Don't you want to sell me a new motor?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

xymotic said:


> see Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada for a station near you.


I'm in Connecticut which seems to be in a pure-gas free zone. Everyone I know is having problems with outboards that are gas related.
Can anyone purchase avgass? If so where?
I can't see myself pulling to to Bradly International with a 5 gallon gas tank.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Gents, I would argue that it is a problems of physics BUT that's an engineering problem and Honda is responsible for the engineering in their products.

Honda would not be the first company that simply built a product without testing it in every possible environment. Apparently, when you have an engine of that size, and you design tiny carb jets in order to accomodate a small fuel flow, and then you add US market gasoline and the Arizona climate, you exceed the operating parameters of the engine.

That doesn't mean Honda is evil (that's reserved for Google) just that someone built an engine which is not suitable for that particular market. Perhaps it is a design problem, perhaps there are other ways to feed that size engine in that climate. Doesn't really matter unless you want to argue that Honda should take the engine back due to an inherent design defect.

What might be simpler, and certainly cheaper than chasing avgas, is just adding Sta-Bil or a similar gasoline stabilant to the fuel with (sadly) every filling. These products aren't just high end solvents, they are typically a naphtha base but with some enzymes or anti-oxidants or other "pinch of magic" dissolved in there.

And they've got a track record for preventing gumming and fuel breakdowns.

The other option is to disconnect the fuel (or is that an internal tank?) or do what you must to allow the engine to be RUN DRY after each use. That runs the gas out of the carb, typically preventing gumming in the passages.

Disappointing engineering, disappointing fuel. I wish I could buy pure gasoline for my car, ethanol is just throwing away money and since I burn about 10% more, it isn't really saving on emissions either.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

davidpm said:


> I'm in Connecticut which seems to be in a pure-gas free zone. Everyone I know is having problems with outboards that are gas related.
> Can anyone purchase avgass? If so where?
> I can't see myself pulling to to Bradly International with a 5 gallon gas tank.


you can buy gas at po-dunk small town airports. Race gas for go-carts or better motorcycle shops as well.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

Well, it's an engineering problem that NOBODY has solved.

Ethanol gas creates a moving target that depends on a number of basically unpredictable conditions.

But yeah stabil or sea foam will help too.



hellosailor said:


> Gents, I would argue that it is a problems of physics BUT that's an engineering problem and Honda is responsible for the engineering in their products.
> 
> Honda would not be the first company that simply built a product without testing it in every possible environment. Apparently, when you have an engine of that size, and you design tiny carb jets in order to accomodate a small fuel flow, and then you add US market gasoline and the Arizona climate, you exceed the operating parameters of the engine.
> 
> ...


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

here's another link that might work Sunoco Race Fuels | Fuel Finder and you can often get good gas at farm/ranch/equipment places. As well as marinas. Anywhere that uses engines 'off highway'


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## bnaylor (Sep 24, 2011)

Re: Hellosailor: 
- I do let the motor run dry after every usage
- I had used Stabil but it didn't seem to make any difference
- I do think the problem is due to the engine design - it's at least a contributing factor
- I buy my aviation fuel at a small business and general aviation airport. I show up with my red gas can, the fuel truck is called, and I get my 3-gallons. I understand that they have many similar customers. Not sure about this, but I so not think they're supposed to sell it for non-aviation use ... I always feel like I'm breaking the law. "LL" stands for low lead - it contains some lead.

- Bob


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## [email protected] (Mar 15, 2012)

Let me tackle these one at a time:

*AVGAS* is a leaded fuel, and is more precisely refined than regular unleaded. It has chemicals that make it last longer and it won't break down or attract water like regular unleaded. And for good reasons; when your outboard stops running, tear into the gear locker and look for the paddles.  When your Cessna stops, _quickly_ look for a straight section of empty highway.  AVGAS is higher octane, but for engines that normally take regular unleaded, it won't help performance. Running AVGAS in any engine that is marked "unleaded only" violates EPA and California Air Resource Board regulations. AVGAS can destroy a catalytic converter, foul spark plugs, plug spark arrestor screens, though off the oxygen sensor, and leave lead deposits on valve seats. Not all those are an issue with most outboard engines.

*FUEL TREATMENTS* can absolutely help; they act as toxins to microscopic bugs present in all fuels. These bugs reproduce by the millions in tanks with a lot of air (oxygen) inside that are in a warm environment. Enough dead bugs and bug poop react with the fuel and you get that nasty varnish odor along with "biomass" that can plug up the carburetor jets, emulsion tube and tiny passageways. The general rule of thumb is, use a fuel stabilizer/treatment if storing fuel for less than 90 days. Otherwise, dispose of it by dumping into your vehicle's tank.

*SOLUTIONS:* 
• Most marinas sell unleaded fuel that is 100%, e.g., no ethanol. A wise choice; you get the best of everything and still stay legal. 
• Going with a slightly larger jet in the carburetor may help; larger jets have bigger holes, make the engine run a bit richer, and are less likely to clog. [Caveat: using a larger jet probably violates a few emissions regulations.] Honda part numbers contain a secret code to tell you the jet size. The standard jet for a BF5 is a #75, and the part number is 99101-ZH7-0*75*0. The next size up is a #78 jet, so get part number 99101-ZH7-0*78*0.
• Not going to use the outboard for at least the next 2 weeks? Drain the carburetor bowl.

*IN THE FUTURE*, all outboards will have fuel-injection and will eliminate the problems of clogged-up carburetors. Honda has a 125cc scooter engine right now that is fuel-injected, so the tech is there, but the cost is still an issue. But, we're getting closer every day...

[email protected]
_Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone._


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

*Bob-* 
I see you've explored all the options. I'm surprised they'll move the truck for a whole three gallons! State laws...criminal possession of fuel...sounds Orwellian, doesn't it? If you've got an warranty left on the engine, has Honda officially responded at all?

*Robert-* 
"most marinas" isn't quite right, in many states they're not allowed to sell pure gasoline no matter how nicely they ask. In some locations, the cost of the damned stuff makes it so uncompetitive, they choose not to, even if they are allowed.
Surely you guys have some kind of carb jet upgrade to send to Bob? Along with some engineer who wants to visit Arizona and install them?

Apparently the topic of low lead and unleaded and what geneal aviation aircraft can or will use for fuel, without falling out of the sky, is a real hotbed. From what I've heard the EPA wants no lead, and everyone else says that's a nice concept, but there's _no _way to keep those engines happy without lead.

I spoke to someone on a B17 crew (there's a few still flying) and asked him how the hell they snuck up behind me, because the aircraft can be oddly quiet for a four-engine bomber. He said mainly that was because the engines were all extensively detuned to run on modern avgas, they were putting out nowhere near the original rated power because today's gasoline just can't keep them happy that way.

*xymotic-*
"Well, it's an engineering problem that NOBODY has solved. "
When all the engineering problems get solved, there'll be no more need for engineers, will there?
There are always solutions to be found. Concrete can't be poured or cured below freezing. Except, the Russians had to deal with that and used antifreeze to make it happen. And when the North Slope oil fields were coming in an Alaska and the new pipelines being built, standard steel tools snapped like glass in the cold. New tool alloys had to be found. And they were.
First time I stepped on the brakes in a car after running through standing water, I stopped on the wrong side of the intersection. Hello, memo, drum brakes do not work when wet. Still, if someone sells an engine to a particular market and it can't work there...they need to step up and do something about that.

By the way, Sta-Bil and SeaFoam are very different products. Sta-Bil uses a "proprietary" secret ingredient which is probably an antioxidant. Seafoam is a mix of naphtha, alcohol, and light oil. Alcohol to blow away deposits, light oil to relube what the alcohol has made too clean, and naphtha because, well, that's the main ingredient in gasoline anyhow.

Regular pump gas is typically a witches brew of about 60 ingredients including some like butane and heptane that normally boil out at room temperature after a few weeks or months. So the engineers have a very full deck of cards to fool with.


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## ro[email protected] (Mar 15, 2012)

hellosailor said:


> Bob-
> Robert-
> Surely you guys have some kind of carb jet upgrade to send to Bob? Along with some engineer who wants to visit Arizona and install them?
> 
> Apparently the topic of low lead and unleaded and what geneal aviation aircraft can or will use for fuel, without falling out of the sky, is a real hotbed. From what I've heard the EPA wants no lead, and everyone else says that's a nice concept, but there's _no _way to keep those engines happy without lead.


The jet is pretty easy to replace in most smaller outboards. I could post the procedure for the BF5 if needed.

A little off topic, but a good read here (scroll down half-way) about progress toward unleaded aviation fuels:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas <--I don't have a post-count high enough to make this an active link :-|

[email protected]
Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Robert,

Nice to have you here. It's always fun to have access to someone with insider information from the manufacturers. 

Have you guys given any thought to making a small (2.5hp or smaller) high thrust outboards? For a lot of small sailboats (say less than 30 foot) we really don't need a 8hp engine, but the small 2.5 is difficult to use because it just cavitates like crazy at anything much more than idle. These are almost exclusively displacement boats, and a prop pitched for planning speed just doesn't work very well. 

The other question I have is would it be possible to bring a very small outboard to market? Say 1hp. Most racers want the lightest outboard we can find regardless of the hp. Which has resulted in a huge increase in the old 2 stroke prices. Most of the time a 2hp working 2stroke is going to actually cost more than a new 2.5 from you, just because we need the reduced weight more than the extra hp. It just seems silly that the last motor I bought actually cost me more for a 20 years old motor than a new one would have cost, just to get a sub 20lbs motor. 

There is a pretty big market for a sub 20lb motor, regardless of price, or hp rating just to hit rules requirements.


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## [email protected] (Mar 15, 2012)

Stumble said:


> Nice to have you here.
> 
> Have you guys given any thought to making a small (2.5hp or smaller) high thrust outboards?
> 
> The other question I have is would it be possible to bring a very small outboard to market? Say 1hp.


Glad to be _aboard_. 

Let me ping the guys over in Product Planning and see what they will share.

[email protected]
Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Stumble, in auto racing circuits it is typical to get something like 3-10 hp per cubic inch depending on how far you want the engine to go. So someone at Honda ought to be able to make a nice one cubic inch titanium alloy engine that you could easily get two hp from.

The question is, are you serious enough about your racing to pay them to do it?

Someone at Honda ought to do it as a matter of engineering pride, before the _competition _puts it on the market. (nudge, nudge)

And if not, what ever happened to giving the crew paddles and loyalty oaths? (G)


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## bnaylor (Sep 24, 2011)

Robert: Re: "The jet is pretty easy to replace in most smaller outboards. I could post the procedure for the BF5 if needed." ... Yes, please, that would be helpful. Avgas is solving the problem for now; but I would be willing to try the larger jets for sure!

Thanks. And thanks to the other posters, too - lots if good information here.

- Bob


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Hello,

I paid $1,000 for a 1985 two stroke engine last year because it was 25lbs lighter than the 3hp tohatsu engine I had. I know a number of people that have flown to the Carribean just to buy 2 stroke engines because they are roughly half the weight of the lightest weight engine available in the US.


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## [email protected] (Mar 15, 2012)

hellosailor said:


> ...someone at Honda ought to be able to make a nice one cubic inch titanium alloy engine that you could easily get two hp from.


Honda is no stranger to racing, but to my knowledge, has not been involved in anything on the water.

As with any major supplier to a racing effort, the payoff is in exposure and branding to consumers, and technical/performance lessons inherent in competition that can be turned into sales, a.k.a., "race on Sunday, sell on Monday."

---
[email protected] (Honda Marine)
_Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone._


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## [email protected] (Mar 15, 2012)

bnaylor said:


> Robert: Re: "The jet is pretty easy to replace in most smaller outboards. I could post the procedure for the BF5 if needed." ... Yes, please, that would be helpful.


I need to get my "post count" up a bit before I'm allowed to post attachments, so hang on....

---
[email protected] (Honda Marine)
_Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone._


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## [email protected] (Mar 15, 2012)

Stumble said:


> Have you guys given any thought to making a small (2.5hp or smaller) high thrust outboards?
> [snip]
> ...would it be possible to bring a very small outboard to market? Say 1hp. Most racers want the lightest outboard we can find
> [snip]
> There is a pretty big market for a sub 20lb motor, regardless of price, or hp rating just to hit rules requirements.


How about a high thrust prop on a Honda BF2.3? It clocks in at 29.5 lbs. dry, and with 0.29 gallon of fuel, that would be about 31.3 lbs. Now that's with the OEM plastic prop.

While the standard answer to any new product idea is the company is always looking at new concepts, etc., it's obvious there has to be a good business case for any investment. A lot of factors come into play; in the USA market, the biggest and most profitable products tend to focus on giant marine engines > 200 hp. No doubt if sailing (kicker motors) was as popular as bass fishing, there would be a slew of lightweight outboards.

---
[email protected] (Honda Marine)
_Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone._


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## [email protected] (Mar 15, 2012)

bnaylor said:


> Robert: Re: "The jet is pretty easy to replace in most smaller outboards. I could post the procedure for the BF5 if needed." ... Yes, please, that would be helpful.


Okay, here you go...BF5 carb jet service, and jet table...

FYI, I had to make these as .JPG files, since sailnet.com doesn't appear to allow .PDF files. If these images aren't clear enough, send me a PM with your email and I'll email you the .PDF files direct.
---
[email protected] (Honda Marine)
_Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone._


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

A sub 20 lb engine










Heck, get three or four.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Stumble, at those prices I'll have to start visiting third world countries looking for old two-strokes, shipping them to the Khyber Pass for rebuilds (hey, good machinists are hard to find) and then reimporting them to the US.

Of course, you realize that a thousand dollars doesn't buy much titanium, or even one hour on a really light high-compression racing engine.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

hellosailor said:


> Stumble, at those prices I'll have to start visiting third world countries looking for old two-strokes, shipping them to the Khyber Pass for rebuilds (hey, good machinists are hard to find) and then reimporting them to the US.
> 
> Of course, you realize that a thousand dollars doesn't buy much titanium, or even one hour on a really light high-compression racing engine.


Hello,

There is real profit to be had in very small lightweight engines. You can import used ones, just not new ones for sale, so yes there is profit in it. Find one of the old seagull 1hp 12lbs engines and you could start a bidding war on sailinganarchy over it. If they work even better, but just having them is the key. Or take a few to some small boat regattas, and you could easily get 800-1000 each, the lighter the more valuable.

The problem is anything 5hp or bigger is going to be the same weight as a new 4stroke, so it's not worth the bother. But the small smokey, won't crank, things people used to throw away are now worth a mint. Just call the local engine shop and ask them if they have any, any where there is a sailing scene there is a waiting list 20 boats long looking for them.

Robert,

The engine I bought was 18lbs. I have no idea how much fuel it carries because I have never put gass into it. The racing rules require me to have an engine onboard, and demonstrate it works when required, they do not require me to carry any fuel onboard (we have 1 cup of gas in the engine for rules requirements that it starts). This is a problem faced by thousands of racers in the US where new two strokes can't be sold.

The EPA rules are driving people to using weed eaters with props on them, 45lb trolling motors, and all sorts of other weird stuff. It isn't just the weight on the boat, it is the problem of taking it off the boat and storing below before every race that is the problem. Pulling motors off the back is a good way to drop them overboard....


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Greg, 

Not to run away with the thread - 
Just take a 45lb thrust trolling motor, rip the head off and put a weed whacker/leafblow/chain saw motor on it, done. It doesn't even need to have the crank shaft connected to the drive.

At no point did you say it actually had to work and move the boat. 

I get a hour of run time with my leafblower's motor at full throttle.


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