# best bilge pump switch



## scottyt

okay i want/need a new float switch for my bilge pump. i dont want the built in ones due to cycling. i currently have the west marine float, which is giving me problems, it drops down the ball inside moves ( i hear it click ) but it does not shut off about 1 out of 10 times. now if i give it a tap it clicks again, it does not do this all the time, but it killed my battery ( as in need new battery it was cold out ). yes i know i need to fix my shaft seal, ordering that at the same time. the worse part is my hunter has a bilge about 4 inches deep so it fills pretty quick ( as in with no pump about a week )

what does anyone think about the sensor ones like this

Water Witch Bilge Pump Switch

or

Ultima Bilge Pump Switch

i am starting to wonder about the float type, i had rule that went bad, now this one is acting crazy. i want to know if anyone has had problems with the above type? also has anybody found it to draw too much juice when just sitting there? are there any better types out there ?


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## Omatako

I could make a list of switches that I have bought, installed and thrown away in the past year. And they're all bloody rubbish. The money I have spent on these godforsaken things would have easily paid for a labourer to sit on my boat 24/7 with a bucket!!!

I wait with bated breath to hear the answer to this question. Finding a decent auto bilge switch is as easy as reconciling North and South Korea.

Good luck and thanks for having the courage to ask this question


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## artbyjody

scottyt said:


> okay i want/need a new float switch for my bilge pump. i dont want the built in ones due to cycling. i currently have the west marine float, which is giving me problems, it drops down the ball inside moves ( i hear it click ) but it does not shut off about 1 out of 10 times. now if i give it a tap it clicks again, it does not do this all the time, but it killed my battery ( as in need new battery it was cold out ). yes i know i need to fix my shaft seal, ordering that at the same time. the worse part is my hunter has a bilge about 4 inches deep so it fills pretty quick ( as in with no pump about a week )
> 
> what does anyone think about the sensor ones like this
> 
> Water Witch Bilge Pump Switch
> 
> or
> 
> Ultima Bilge Pump Switch
> 
> i am starting to wonder about the float type, i had rule that went bad, now this one is acting crazy. i want to know if anyone has had problems with the above type? also has anybody found it to draw too much juice when just sitting there? are there any better types out there ?


I personally use the Water Witch as it allows mounting high and low sensors. Coupled with a multi function bilge monitor and blue sea bilge switches (for auto, off, manual - although the manual you have to continuously press or stuff something on the other side of the switch to keep on - an annoyance)...The nice things about the water switch is you can use them for alarm only applications....and are small enough to place about anywhere and doesn't matter the orientation...


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## scottyt

jody i have the auto off manual switch from bass pro shop, it does not have the manual return like yours does, stays in all 3 positions. also it has 2 leds, a green one for when its auto mode, a red for manual, and when its in auto and running both leds light. the green is really dim so it cant draw much at all. best part same 3 wire install, and 20 bucks iirc.

edit: the control switch also has a breaker built in. i cant find it on bass pro site but if you want one to avoid the manual reset part let me know i will get one and mail it to ya. and if you want pics i can get pics of mine installed


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## Valiente

I like the _idea _of the Water Witch over the usual float-type, but I haven't heard enough "field testing" to convince me of their durability.

Of course, I like the _idea _of the Tank Tender system for running on air pressure instead of volts, but I'm less keen on the price and the experimentation necessary to figure out each tank's calibration.


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## celenoglu

I have tried nearly all the available auto switches for the bilge including the sonic ones and pressure sensing circuits. Nearly all of them failed sooner or later. 

Now I use two bilge pumps: One is connected to the service battery and located deeper than the second one. This is the "always" working one. The other is located higher than the first and the source is the engine battery. If the first one fails, the second one works. There is small electronic circuitry that informs when the second one operates. This way I can keep the bilge dry (nearly).


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## scottyt

kind of a free bump for more opinions and with some info too

okay lots of reading. i thought the float switch i had just had a metal ball that hit 2 contacts shorting them out to get the pump to run. i found out it uses a ball to close a physical switch which can stick, and i guess mine has. the west marine one i have is rebranded, but what dont they rebrand.

i found 6 reviews on the water witch, one said it worked fine for 6 months then died, the other 5 all said it works great. i did find one review where the only failure was a guy had his RO pump line failed and could not sense ultra pure water but it worked fine on normal water. i guess i will give it a try. 

i also found out some complaints about the sensor type some say oil will foul them but less in the inductive type like the water witch. it is more for the other electronic type. now i know how the induction type works, and even if it gets oil on it, it only needs a very small surface clean to work

normal disclaimer no connection to anything etc etc


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## Sasha_V

After six failures of various commercial units, I built my own. Then I built two more for friends. The oildest is now more than 3 years old and still working fine. PVC vertical tube. Internal connical foam float with small weight on the bottom to act as return and a magnetic switch (no contact neccassary, and no metal exposed to water). The float rises a couple of inches and the mag field activates a relay (the weak point as I see it, but one completely in the dry of the breaker box). Relay activates the pump.

I had an idea about adding a small mast to the float with a second mag-spot and a second mag sensorfurther up the tube. Float rises slightly, bottom pump comes on, float rises more, both secondary and primary pump activates as both mag sensors line up...Have not tried that one yet.

The nice thing about the mag switch is that there is nothing to corrode or leak away or for the pivot point to clog or corode...and all the other things that go wrong with standard units.

Alex.


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## btrayfors

Andre and Alex,

I feel your pain, having also tried most of the switch types on the market and with mixed success over a 25 year period. Also, from seeing dozens of customer vessels with their bilge pump switch problems.

The most reliable switches are generally considered to be those in the Ultimate Switch family. Not suprisingly, they are quite expensive. They are warrantied for 5 years, and users report amazing success.

Over the past ten years or so I've been using a succession of sensor switches...those which essentially are activated whenever water comes in contact with the sensors on the small units. Generally, these work pretty well, *but only if you keep them really clean.* If oil builds up on the sensors, you get flaky results, including a switch which fails to turn off. I run two of these all the time on my boat, and clean them periodically. Happily, I have bilge pumps which are not harmed if they run dry, which has occasionally happened when the darned little switches fail to turn off.

When I get tired of fooling with these inadequate devices, I'll probably spring for a couple of Ultimate Switches.

Bill


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## captbillc

Sasha V--- can you post a drawing showing parts, circuits ,etc so i can build a switch like yours to test in my boat ? or email one or a picture to me [email protected]


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## Omatako

Sasha_V said:


> PVC vertical tube. Internal connical foam float with small weight on the bottom to act as return and a magnetic switch (no contact neccassary, and no metal exposed to water). The float rises a couple of inches and the mag field activates a relay (the weak point as I see it, but one completely in the dry of the breaker box). Relay activates the pump.


So the float goes up and activates the switch which switches a relay which powers the pump. That part I understand. But then the pump runs for a short while, removes an inch of water and the float drops. Does this not disengage the switch and deactivate the relay, stopping the pump? How do you keep the pump running until the bilge is empty? And if you have a way of keeping the pump running as the float goes down, how do you stop the pump running when the float gets to the bottom? 

If I could figure that out I'd make my own as well but . . . . I'm probably a bit slow.


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## sailingdog

A simple way would be to use a relay that has a time delay built into it. That way it would continue to run a bit after the switch "shuts" it off. Of course, you'd want pumps that can be run dry without harm.


Omatako said:


> So the float goes up and activates the switch which switches a relay which powers the pump. That part I understand. But then the pump runs for a short while, removes an inch of water and the float drops. Does this not disengage the switch and deactivate the relay, stopping the pump? How do you keep the pump running until the bilge is empty? And if you have a way of keeping the pump running as the float goes down, how do you stop the pump running when the float gets to the bottom?
> 
> If I could figure that out I'd make my own as well but . . . . I'm probably a bit slow.


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## scottyt

capt bill here is one i found looking last night. it has a time delay to empty bilges, below the sensor height. basicly time how long it takes to pump down to empty and set the timer to let it run that long

Water Detector With Sump/Bilge Pump Controller


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## Omatako

sailingdog said:


> A simple way would be to use a relay that has a time delay built into it. That way it would continue to run a bit after the switch "shuts" it off. Of course, you'd want pumps that can be run dry without harm.


Yes I guess you could but that's really a compromise to a "proper" solution. That avenue could be used even easier by having a small micro processor start the pump every x hours and run it for y minutes. That's too easy  and isn't really an automatic bilge pump switch.

I have thought about a pendulum float that has a sectored quadrant and a toggle switch. When the pendulum floats up the quadrant rotates around the pendulum axis and the one end of the sector gets to the switch and switches it on.

As the water level goes down and gets to the bottom the quadrant, having rotated the other way gets to it's end and flicks the switch off again. Something like this:









Of course, the effort involved in the float's ability to flick the switch one way and the weight of it going down to flick it other way would depend on the mechanical resistance in the switch. With a long enough arm, the moment of effort around the pivot should be enough without having an anvil hanging on the end. 

And equally of course, the pivot assembly would be mounted well out of the water with the float arm at the correct length and bent at the appropriate angle to make everything happen on schedule.


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## sailingdog

Andre—

With that long a lever arm for the switch, you're going to need the water to move quite a bit before it could throw the switch. 

One solution would be to use a float in a tube, and have magnetic reed switches in the tube. One, say two inches above the top of the float would turn on the pump, and one at the normal position of the float with an empty bilge could be used to turn off the float. That would prevent the bilge pump from short cycling over and over again due to back flow. 

Another way would be to mount a normally closed magnetic reed switch at the height of the float for a dry bilge, and then when the float rises, the switch closes... it wouldn't open until the float dropped back down to the normal, dry-bilge resting position. You could vary the sensitivity by making the magnet smaller or bigger.

I like magnetic reed switches, since they're normally potted in solid epoxy and basically waterproof and corrosion proof for that reason.


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## Quickstep192

After going through several external switches, I ended up getting a Rule pump, but not the kind that comes on every two minutes. Instead mine has an internal electronic water detecter that turns it on. Once on, it runs for about 20 seconds after the water level drops. This gets extra water out and as a result, the pump runs less frequently. The boat it's in takes on a lot of rain water and it's been working for two years now which is about 22 months better than I ever got with an external switch.


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## j34035

I've used the water witch switches for years with total satisfaction. I really dislike the float type switches; one jam up and your batteries run down. The water witch has never caused me any issues.
DD


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## Bene505

Alex (Sasha),

Please post some pictures. Also, I'd think that a totally separate float switch would be better than a second higher-up switch on the one float. Better to have full redundency.

A delay can be bulit quite easily with a simple 555 timer built from parts at any Radio Shack. You might be able to make something out of a capacitor, resistor, diode and some nand gates, I think.

Anyone know if there's a vacuum-style pump that would suck up the water that comes back down the tubing after the bilge pump turns off?


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## Omatako

sailingdog said:


> With that long a lever arm for the switch, you're going to need the water to move quite a bit before it could throw the switch.


The movement on the arm would be directly proportional to the size of the sector in which the switch is located. Small sector, small stroke. If necessary, the sector could be small enough to only accommodate the throw distance of the switch. But I do get your point.



sailingdog said:


> One solution would be to use a float in a tube, and have magnetic reed switches in the tube.


Sounds like a decent solution but two things - first, what device would you use on the float that will trigger a magnetic reed switch that would not rust (perhaps a magnet  ) and second, what is the required proximity of the trigger to the switch. If it needs to be neat, would you not have problems with the float getting oil or dirt on it and sticking in the tube?

Forgive my ignorance, I have little knowledge of the functionality of magnetic reed switches. So if the mag switch closes and the device that caused it to close goes away, does the switch stay closed? If so, how does the pump switch off if this circuit stays "made". If not then the pump will stop running as soon as the device that closed the switch moves back down the pipe. I'm obviously missing something here.


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## sailingdog

Omatako said:


> Sounds like a decent solution but two things - first, what device would you use on the float that will trigger a magnetic reed switch that would not rust (perhaps a magnet  ) and second, what is the required proximity of the trigger to the switch. If it needs to be neat, would you not have problems with the float getting oil or dirt on it and sticking in the tube?


A magnet, fully encapsulated in epoxy is not going to rust. If the float is large enough, and the magnet high enough in the tube, oil and dirt isn't an issue. For instance, the bottom most section of the shaft could be left open, provided there were good guides inside the PVC pipe, it wouldn't matter that the bottom section wasn't enclosed. A simple way to do this is to use slight smaller OD PVC pipe for the float, and to add a inverted reducer to the bottom and a small tank for the float. 


> Forgive my ignorance, I have little knowledge of the functionality of magnetic reed switches. So if the mag switch closes and the device that caused it to close goes away, does the switch stay closed? If so, how does the pump switch off if this circuit stays "made". If not then the pump will stop running as soon as the device that closed the switch moves back down the pipe. I'm obviously missing something here.


You missed my point. The reed switch is one that is "NORMALLY CLOSED" and the magnet keeps the switch open, preventing the pump from running. When the magnet rises out of position, the switch reverts to the "NORMALLY CLOSED" position and the pump kicks on. The switches are fairly low in the pipe, as is the magnet. Here is an ASCII diagram of it turn 90˚.

===================sw1=sw2==== 
-TOP-------------------------------MAGNET------------------------FLOAT
=============================

As the float rises (moves left in diagram) the maintenance pump (sw2) comes on. If the maintenance pump can't keep up with the water inflow, the float will continue to rise (move further to the left) and the high-capacity de-watering pump (sw1) will come on. As long as the magnet is above the two reed switches, they will remain closed and and the bilge pumps will continue to run. Got it??


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## CaptainForce

I have a PAR Hydro-air 34875-0000 ITT Jabsco- Costa Mesa, Ca. It's a pneumatic switch that has served me well since purchased in 1988. The only part in the bilge is a piece of tygon tubing (aquarium hose) attached to a plastic bell. I have had a need to clean the bell out once every few years if it clogs with debris. All the switch parts that respond to the increased pressure when water rises up the tube are in a convient dry locker well above the bilge. When the water receeds, the pressure drops and the pump is swithched off. I wouldn't have anything else. Simplicity rules!


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## Omatako

sailingdog said:


> You missed my point. The reed switch is one that is "NORMALLY CLOSED" and the magnet keeps the switch open, preventing the pump from running. When the magnet rises out of position, the switch reverts to the "NORMALLY CLOSED" position and the pump kicks on. The switches are fairly low in the pipe, as is the magnet. Here is an ASCII diagram of it turn 90˚.


*I got it!* But then again, maybe not  .

I've just adjusted your ASCII drawing to place the magnets alongside the switches because if they were where you placed them, both pumps would be running. 

===================sw1=sw2==== 
-TOP--------------------MAGNET------------------------FLOAT
=============================



sailingdog said:


> As the float rises (moves left in diagram) the maintenance pump (sw2) comes on.


Like this?

===================sw1=sw2==== 
-TOP----------------MAGNET------------------------FLOAT
=============================

So let's put some numbers to it. Let's say that 6" of water has to come in to lift the magnet away from the switch. Then the maintenance pump comes on and removes a small portion of the water and when the water gets down to 5.9 inches, the magnet moves down and switches the pump off again.  So you will still have 5.9" inches of water in the bilge. It will never pump it all out. At 6.0" it will pump and at 5.9" it will stop. And so on . . . .

Unless you're saying that the magnet has to be fully alongside the switch before the state changes and turns the pump off. In which case as soon as the water level rises 1/10th" the magnet starts to move, is no longer fully alongside the switch and starts the pump running, pumps out 1/10th" and stops again.

Whether you use naturally-closed or naturally-open switches is not going to make any difference because when the magnet gets to the switch, it'll change it's *state* (on or off) and the pump will stop. The system you outline above will oscillate between two water levels very close to each other and will never empty the bilge.

You see, you have to have way of *keeping the pump running right up until all the water is out* before the pump switches off again. Magnetic reed switches set up as in your post, will not achieve this.

Got it?

I'm ready for my next enlightenment


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## sailingdog

Andre-

NO. The switches are normally closed when no magnet is near them.

*BOTH SWITCHES CLOSED*-dry bilge
===================sw1=sw2==== 
-TOP-------------------------------MAGNET------------------------FLOAT
=============================
Magnet is holding both switches OPEN, no pumps on

*MAINTENANCE PUMP ON*-2" water in bilge
===================sw1=sw2==== 
-TOP------------------------MAGNET------------------------FLOAT
=============================
Magnet moves from maintenance pump switch, sw2, and maintenance switch pump switch closes, turning on maintenance pump

* DEWATERING AND MAINTENANCE PUMPS ON*-4" water in the bilge
===================sw1=sw2==== 
-TOP----------------MAGNET------------------------FLOAT
=============================
Magnet moves from dewatering pump switch, sw1, and dewatering switch pump switch closes, turning on dewatering pump, maintenance pump already running.

Got it now I hope.


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## Omatako

This is probably becoming a PITA for others on the thread but I still don't get it. Probably I'm just misinterpreting what you're saying.

In my experience, a normally-closed switch means that unless activated, the circuit is made. A normally-open switch would mean that unless activated the circuit would be broken (as in "open circuit"). Maybe in the US this is different. If so that deals with half my problem. But your comment below of "Magnet is holding both switches OPEN, no pumps on" tells me my understanding is correct, even in the US.

However maybe my misunderstanding extends beyond that. Your diagram below indicates to me that the magnet is "below" the switches, the second that it is next to the SW2 and the third that is next to SW1. Is that right or am I misinterpreting this part of your discussion?

===================sw1=sw2==== 
-TOP-------------------------------MAGNET------------------------FLOAT
=============================

So if my understanding of a normally closed switch is incorrect, how can a magnet that is not opposite the switches hold the switches open? If my understanding of a normally closed switch is correct, then your first diagram shows pumps that are already running.

Are we talking cross-purposes here??

Anyway, whatever your response to the above, my point actually is that unless the magnet is opposite the switch, the pump won't run. That seems clear to both of us. So when the pump starts to run (after the water reaches 2'') it will immediately start lowering the level and cause the magnet to move away from the switch and the pump will stop. The 2" of water will still be there. Sorry, this is too simple, I can't even make it sound complicated.

The solution I'm looking for will see the pump carry on running until the 2" of water has been pumped out. As said in an earlier post and outlined above, your system doesn't achieve that.


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## scottyt

bump for some info

west marine has the ultima switch on sale for 23 bucks at my local store, it might be everywhere. best part is they are taking back my old one with no receipt for store credit, the new ultima will cost me 5 bucks


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## petmac

scottyt said:


> bump for some info
> 
> west marine has the ultima switch on sale for 23 bucks at my local store, it might be everywhere. best part is they are taking back my old one with no receipt for store credit, the new ultima will cost me 5 bucks


I put in a new ultima switch last winter. It failed in Sept and I replaced it this winter.


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## sailingdog

Omatako said:


> This is probably becoming a PITA for others on the thread but I still don't get it. Probably I'm just misinterpreting what you're saying.
> 
> In my experience, a normally-closed switch means that unless activated, the circuit is made. A normally-open switch would mean that unless activated the circuit would be broken (as in "open circuit"). Maybe in the US this is different. If so that deals with half my problem. But your comment below of "Magnet is holding both switches OPEN, no pumps on" tells me my understanding is correct, even in the US.


*That is exactly correct. THE MAGNET IS HOLDING THE SWITCHES OPEN WHEN IT IS NEXT TO THEM.*



> However maybe my misunderstanding extends beyond that. Your diagram below indicates to me that the magnet is "below" the switches, the second that it is next to the SW2 and the third that is next to SW1. Is that right or am I misinterpreting this part of your discussion?
> 
> ===================sw1=sw2====
> -TOP-------------------------------MAGNET------------------------FLOAT
> =============================
> 
> So if my understanding of a normally closed switch is incorrect, how can a magnet that is not opposite the switches hold the switches open? If my understanding of a normally closed switch is correct, then your first diagram shows pumps that are already running.
> 
> Are we talking cross-purposes here??
> 
> Anyway, whatever your response to the above, my point actually is that unless the magnet is opposite the switch, the pump won't run. That seems clear to both of us. So when the pump starts to run (after the water reaches 2'') it will immediately start lowering the level and cause the magnet to move away from the switch and the pump will stop. The 2" of water will still be there. Sorry, this is too simple, I can't even make it sound complicated.


YOU'RE CONFUSED. * The normally closed switches won't run when the magnet is next to them, since the magnet is holding them OPEN. * When the magnet rises, due to water in the bilge, and moves to the left in my drawing, the first switch to "deactivate" is SW2. *This means that switch now closes, since the magnet is no longer holding it open-because it is a normally closed switch.*

As the water continues to rise, pushing the magnet higher (or further to the left in my drawing which is on its side), then SW1 "activates"-causing the big dewatering pump to turn on-because the magnet is no longer holding that switch OPEN.



> The solution I'm looking for will see the pump carry on running until the 2" of water has been pumped out. As said in an earlier post and outlined above, your system doesn't achieve that.


*By adjusting the position of the lower reed switch, you can minimize the amount of water left in the bilge.* However, you have to balance the amount of water with what happens when the hose backflushes as the pumps shut down. By making the "maintenance pump" a small one with a small diameter hose, you reduce the amount of water that can back flush.


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## scottyt

petmac said:


> I put in a new ultima switch last winter. It failed in Sept and I replaced it this winter.


if i could 6 months of a float switch i would be thrilled, i have been batting about 2 months.

i also found there was a recall on one of the rule float switches


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## Omatako

SD, you're clearly not paying attention and missing half of my question so I'll start again and take it one step at a time. In my last post I asked you:



Omatako said:


> Your diagram below indicates to me that the magnet is "below" the switches, the second that it is next to the SW2 and the third that is next to SW1. Is that right or am I misinterpreting this part of your discussion?
> 
> ===================sw1=sw2====
> -TOP---------------------------------------MAGNET------------------------FLOAT
> =============================


So let's get that out of the way.

1st question: Is the magnet in your diagram above opposite a switch or is it not?

2nd question: Is this where the magnet would be when the bilge is empty/dry?


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## scottyt

the magnet and reed switch is just as likely to hang up with crap unless the float is larger enough to force up the rod, then you need enough weight to force it down if it is sticky 

face it if a perfectly clean bulge with no oil or debris the good old fashioned float switch made from decent parts will last for ever. problem is there is not perfectly clean bilge when it counts and building the float switch out of the best parts would cost 100 bucks and never sell because it cost too much.


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## Omatako

scottyt said:


> the magnet and reed switch is just as likely to hang up with crap unless the float is larger enough to force up the rod, then you need enough weight to force it down if it is sticky
> 
> face it if a perfectly clean bulge with no oil or debris the good old fashioned float switch made from decent parts will last for ever. problem is there is not perfectly clean bilge when it counts and building the float switch out of the best parts would cost 100 bucks and never sell because it cost too much.


Hey Scott, as it happens I'm with you on that, the fact is if I could buy one of these switches that's GUARANTEED to work and keep on working, I'd pay $200 with a smile.

I've tried so many different ones and none of them work. So, guess what? I'll try my own ideas and see how it goes.

I just seem to have got myself embroiled in a discussion that is intended again to make me look stupid using a defective idea.

Sorry if it isn't the result you expected from the thread. I'm getting to the end of my enthusiasm for it so it may end soon enough.


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## scottyt

hey i am a firm believer in trying maybe you will come with the idea that does work all the time for 40 bucks, and if you do i demand 10 % share.


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## L124C

*Maintenance bilge pump*

Just installed a Water Witch 101 switch connected to a diaphragm pump to act as a maintenance bilge pump. Installed the switch, sensor down, about a 1/2" above the bottom of the bilge. Keeps the bilge with about 1/4" of water in it, only because thats the most the pick up/strainer will get (unlike typical centrifugal pumps, diagram pumps can be run dry). If I had a low spot in my bilge, it would keep the rest of the bilge dry. I'm tempted to grind some fiberglass, but don't have the guts to mess with the bilge/keel! Anyway, 1/4" is better than 2". Keeps the water fresher and keeps the main pump and switch dry for when I really need them I like the Water Witch, though the first one they sent didn't work. The guy at Water Witch sent me a replacement without hesitation. Good customer service but it sounds like QC isn't what it could be, which concerns me. My solar panel keeps the batterys charged so the pump and switch are not drawing too much power, even though we've had a lot of rain.


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## sailingdog

Andre-

I built something similar to what I was describing for you for a friend's boat about ten years or so back, and it's still working. The vertical rod is much smaller than the PVC pipe and the magnet and a spacer a bit lower down are what keep the rod aligned. Because of that, it is very difficult for oil and gunk floating int he bilge to cause it to jam. The float was actually a toilet tank float. I was on the boat last year, helping move it up from NJ... and the switch was still working. The pumps have been replaced about four times now though.



Omatako said:


> Hey Scott, as it happens I'm with you on that, the fact is if I could buy one of these switches that's GUARANTEED to work and keep on working, I'd pay $200 with a smile.
> 
> I've tried so many different ones and none of them work. So, guess what? I'll try my own ideas and see how it goes.
> 
> I just seem to have got myself embroiled in a discussion that is intended again to make me look stupid using a defective idea.
> 
> Sorry if it isn't the result you expected from the thread. I'm getting to the end of my enthusiasm for it so it may end soon enough.


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## GaryHLucas

I can almost sympathize with you guys, but my boat doesn't have a bilge pump. The accepted tool seems to be a large sponge. Because it is an Etap.

However, if you want a reliable switch you need two things. An encapsulated reed switch to sense a magnet on your float. I've used these to sense magnets on a wheel to provide speed and distance, and have never had one fail, despite hundreds of installations, and literally billions of switch operations. Go to Newark Electronics, or Digikey for the switches.

Second you need a low energy coil relay to handle the pump motor current, and only put a very low load on the reed switch. Relays are reated for operations at rated current. Pick one with a rating of a million operations at the current you need to carry and it will last almost forever. You could also use solid state relay, just make sure it is overrated for the current.


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## Omatako

sailingdog said:


> Andre-
> 
> I built something similar to what I was describing for you for a friend's boat about ten years or so back, and it's still working. The vertical rod is much smaller than the PVC pipe and the magnet and a spacer a bit lower down are what keep the rod aligned. Because of that, it is very difficult for oil and gunk floating int he bilge to cause it to jam. The float was actually a toilet tank float. I was on the boat last year, helping move it up from NJ... and the switch was still working. The pumps have been replaced about four times now though.


SD, since we haven't finished our earlier debate, forgive me for having trouble believing that one of these has been working at all, let alone for 10 years. Maybe the pumps are replaced regularly because they never stop running?

If I am to continue this debate with you then I must ask you to respond to post #29 first.

Ta


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## sailingdog

Might want to learn to read....as that was answered in POST #23, which is why I didn't bother replying to post 29 originally... the top drawing is clearly labeled: "*BOTH SWITCHES CLOSED*-dry bilge"

Most people would understand that that is the default position for the float, when the bilge is DRY, or the normal operating position for it.

According to Carol, the only maintenance she does with the switch is to rinse it occasionally. There are no exposed wires or connections in the bilge, as the switches are potted in epoxy, as are the magnets-which is how I attached them to the plastic rod. Most of the PVC pipe is not generally exposed to bilge water, since the float is the lowest component of the design, and that is generally what sits in the bilge water and is exposed to oil, dirt, sludge, etc. That is one reason I designed it this way, to keep the operating components out of the bilge water during the course of normal operation.

Of course, if your bilge in normally full of filthy water, then you might have a serious problem and the switch, as designed, may not function properly for an extended period of time. But that would be the least of the problems in the boat IMHO....with other, more important things needing to be addressed.



Omatako said:


> SD, since we haven't finished our earlier debate, forgive me for having trouble believing that one of these has been working at all, let alone for 10 years. Maybe the pumps are replaced regularly because they never stop running?
> 
> If I am to continue this debate with you then I must ask you to respond to post #29 first.
> 
> Ta


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## rharriman

Hi, 
I talked to a lobsterman last weekend and he has two bilge pumps in his boat.
maybe this will double your problem, but a spare battery hooked to one pump 
will at least keep your boat off the bottom if one fails. Good luck, Rob


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## Omatako

sailingdog said:


> Might want to learn to read....as that was answered in POST #23, which is why I didn't bother replying to post 29 originally... the top drawing is clearly labeled: "*BOTH SWITCHES CLOSED*-dry bilge"
> 
> Most people would understand that that is the default position for the float, when the bilge is DRY, or the normal operating position for it.


Yeah, most people would understand but seemingly not you.

"*BOTH SWITCHES CLOSED *- dry bilge" means that the pumps are running without any water in the bilge.

Remember we agreed earlier that when the switches are *closed* the circuit is *made*?


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## Omatako

Seems like Sailing Dog has decided to walk away from this debate.

I wonder why?


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## TSOJOURNER

*float switch remedy*

I have had six charter sportfishing boats 50 - 90 feet over the last 30 years. USCG subdivision requires 4-6 compartments and a switch in each compartment. I know your pain here! I now run a very leaky 50' carvel planked live bait seiner. The only float switch solution I have found over the years is the toilet bowl plunger or anything that keeps the switch out of the water.

Take a 2x4 and two small eye bolts. Put one eye bolt in either end so the plunger rod can slide through them with about 2-3 inches of slide movement. Mount the flopper on the top of the 2x4 so the threaded end of the plunger with a fender washer on it pushes up the flopper switch up and stops with the switch in the "up" position. Mount the 2x4 to the boat so in the "down" position the float end stops on or close to the hull. The switch and all the wiring never get wet and it lasts for years. Kind of for a yacht or pleasure boat application but i'm sure you can come up with something pretty. I also use those shrink tube style but connectors for the wiring.

Just discovered Rule makes a "gold" edition 12v pump with a five year warranty. I haven't tried it yet but at least the problem of pumps going out would be easier on my pocketbook if they'll replace them.


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## roline

Has anyone tried the optical sensors, like little gem? Motorola also makes an optical sensor for detecting water. It could detect shallower amounts of water. I wanted to have a self priming pump that could run dry triggered by a sensor to pump the last of the water out of a shallow bilge. Conventional bilge pumps leave too much water behind. I've been using a sponge to get the last amount out, just looking for a better method.


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## nereussailor

I'm having problems with my pump switch too. Maybe if we could see some pictures, we could end this debate and get our bilge pumps working properly. After all, fighting on the internet is like f*#^ing for virginity. You'll never win the fight. 

Dave


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## scottyt

my ultima switch is still going strong after 9 months. i am impressed so far, but i do wipe it off monthly or so. it has lasted 4.5 times as long as anything else so far


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## CaptainForce

scottyt said:


> my ultima switch is still going strong after 9 months. i am impressed so far, but i do wipe it off monthly or so. it has lasted 4.5 times as long as anything else so far


My pneumatic Par "hydro-air" is still going strong after 21 years. I am impressed so far, but I have cleaned out the plastic bell a few times....'take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## jenningsp

*Bilge switch hysteresis*

Hi all,

At the risk of throwing oil on the "discussion" between SailingDog & Omatako over the last 6 months, here is my take on the bilge switch issue.

The type of bilge pump switch you need depends totally on the type of bilge your boat has: shallow, deep, with sump, without sump, etc.

*A single switch connected to a pump will only ever be able to empty your bilge by a small amount, being the volume equivalent to the distance required to change the state of the switch from "open" to "closed", or vice versa.* This is regardless of what the switch is: magnetic reed, ball bearing float, inductive, normally open, normally closed, etc. As the water level rises, the switch will trigger the pump, but with a single switch, as soon as the water drops below the switch trigger point, it will turn the pump off again.

This action is generally fine for a shallow bilge boat where the water needs to be cleared as soon as it comes in. (which I suspect is the application that Sailing Dog was talking about) However, this type of system often leads to frequent on/off cycling of the pump because the vast majority of switches only have a small on/off vertical distance.

In our yacht we have a deep bilge under the engine, and then there is a sump built into the bottom of the bilge where the switches sit. The sump is 10cm deep (thats about 4" for non-metric people) and holds about 4 litres of water (1 US gallon).

What I wanted was a system where the pump switches on when the water gets to the top of the sump (depth 10cm), but doesn't switch off until it drops to close to the bottom of the sump (depth 1-2cm). If we used a single switch, the water would rise to 10cm, the pump would switch on, but then as soon as the water dropped below the switch (say depth = 9cm) the pump would turn off, leaving 9cm of water - not what we want. (I believe that this is what Omatako was concerned about)

The tech term for what we want is "hysteresis". Initially the answer seems quite simple, put a second switch at the bottom which switches the pump off, but if you work through the logic, it's not that simple.

There are several "off-the-shelf" solutions that attempt to solve this, including the Ultima, the Ultra Safety Switch, switches with timers-after-off,and others. However, none of them had the right hysteresis loop for us (i.e. the right on and off levels), and I'm not keen on the timed switch.

So, I put together a system that uses two switches, one at the top of the sump (called S-hi: I'm nothing if not original), and one at the bottom (called surprisingly S-low). The signals from these are connected to a logic circuit that is called a NOR-gate flip-flop (or Latch). The output from the flip-flop then drives a relay to turn the pump on and off.

The logic of the flip-flop is as follows:

Switch State Pump Action Description
S-hi S-low

0 0 0 no water in bilge
0 1 0 bilge starts filling over lower switch
1 1 1 bilge filled to top switch, pump turns on
0 1 1 water below top switch but still pumping
0 0 0 water drops below S-low, pump off

(Those of you familiar with latches will recognise that you need to actually take the inverse of the S-low signal to make it work properly. This is easily achieved by running it through a NOT gate prior to the latch input.)

Despite the rather convoluted logic argument, it's pretty easy to implement (and cheap): the logic gates come in standard cheap intergrated circuits through Radio Shack etc, and if you're not good soldering electronic components onto a vero board, I'm sure that one of your neighbours has a geek child who would love to do it. It's also very rugged: this is not complicated electronics.

This leaves the question of which switches to use. We went for magnetic reed switches from Barksdale (barksdale-usa.com/level_switch.htm), not cheap but very rugged. You can even get the two switches on one fancy mounting if you wish. To shield the switches from debris, we put a stainless mesh over the sump which can be lifted out for cleaning. The mesh is also a good medium on which to mount the switches (they hang below it of course).

You could also put the switches in PVC tubes, as I think SailingDog did. If you do this just remember to cut small holes in the PVC pipe to allow water in at the bottom.

The other thing we could do, which we didn't, is add another switch higher up in the deep bilge (above the sump) which triggers a higher capacity pump and an alarm. If you ever trigger this it would mean that water is coming in faster than your standard pump can cope with - not a good situation!

Sorry that this post was so long, but I hope it is clear enough and useful to someone.

Cheers,
Paul


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## jenningsp

Sorry, 

The logic table didn't come out well. Here it is again:

S-hi S-low Pump
0 0 0
0 1 0
1 1 1
0 1 1
0 0 0

Paul


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## nereussailor

any possibility that you have any pictures of your switch?


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## scottyt

paul what you built can be done all mechanicly with 2 of the shelf switches and a relay. 

no need for a logic circuit, just 2 standard float switches. if any one needs a diagram i can draw one up. but it is on the internet its a normal start stop electric circuit for motor control


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## jenningsp

Scottyt,

I'd be interested in a link to a diagram of this. The only way I can think of with relays, and all i can find, doesn't perform the same function.

This is because there's a conditional function needed. As the bilge is filling up from empty, the lower switch turns on, but we don't want the pump to operate yet. When the top switch turns on, both switches are on, and we want the pump to start. Then the water level starts going down, the top switch turns off and the lower switch is still on, and we still want the pump to work. Then the water level gets below the lower switch, that switch also turns off, and that's when we want the pump to turn off. Then the cycle starts all over again.

What that means is that we need two separate outputs for the same input state condition (lower switch on, top switch off). Sometimes we want the pump on when this condition is satisfied, and sometimes we want the pump off. What tells us which of these two outputs we want is what the condition was immediately prior: 

when "lower switch on, top switch off" occurs after both switches have been on, we want the pump to be on; 

when "lower switch on, top switch off" occurs after both switches are off, we want the pump to be off. 

The first situation corresponds to the bilge being emptied of water by being pumped out, the second to it filling with water.

As I'm sure you're aware, the reason for this is to stop the bilge pump "short cycling", which is both annoying and reduces pump life.

It's because of this "two outputs for the same switch state" requirement that I went with a latch - that's exactly what a latch does.

I haven't worked extensively with relays, so I can't quite see how the same could be achieved. I believe you that it is possible because pre-solid state era telephone exchanges essentially used relays as latches - I just can't figure out how (or maybe I haven't thought about it enough  . Your help would be appreciated.

The other issue I wonder about is the current draw in the off state (i.e. pump not working). If one set of poles on the relay is energised in this state, then there's a relatively high current draw that's continuous. With the solid state solution the current draw is very small most of the time.

I'll look forward to seeing the relay solution.

Cheers,
Paul.


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## scottyt

with the systems like below ( both ) there is no power draw unless the pump is on. there is a back up with the drawing below, if the lower float does not turn on the upper float will run the pump but only when it is closed. so it wont totally clear the bilge but it wont keep filling past the upper. but when the lower is closed and the upper is closed the pump will continue to run till the lower opens. i like the thought that if the bilge fills past the upper float it will run even with the lower still open, ie broke or jammed










now the one below would need a double pole relay. but it wont allow the pump to run unless both switches are closed. it loses some safety back up if you ask me for that reason.


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## scottyt

now paul if you want to look this up on the internet, to see other options on these circuits google "3 wire start stop". another nice option with this that gives other back ups it if you added a second upper float in parallel with the existing upper either same height or higher it would give you a real back up. now this only works with the first system. but both uppers would have to fail before it would not work. 

now you could do a hybrid of the 2 with a third upper float switch say right at sole level that can turn on the system when the water reaches the sole height. but it would only run when it was closed and it would ignore both other switches. in this case i would rather have a normal float activating a really big pump, that way if the others get over wellemed or fail it is there to keep the boat from sinking


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## jenningsp

Hi scottyt,

That makes sense - and is simple. The only issue I can see that you'd have to watch is that in your first diagram, which I agree the redundancy makes safer, the current runs directly through the switch which could be an issue (many switches don't have current ratings that high). This could be solved of course by putting another relay in which is purely from that switch.

Using relays is an interesting alternative. I'm not sure which I prefer: relays or logic gates. They both have benefits and disadvantages. Logic gates are probably cheaper, but not significantly so.

Thanks for the enlightenment: I think it gives everyone a couple of great options.

As I pointed out in my original post, I think that the key here is the hysteresis that is in these systems. That stops the problems associated with just a single switch.

Cheers,
Paul.


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## scottyt

paul the switches are standard float switches, so they can handle the full load from the bilge pump.

as for price, i think relays are running about 10 bucks now, and 2 standard float switches run what about 20 bucks each


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## JOHN GALEA

has any body tried using the magnetic reed floating switches as an alternative to the normal float ones?


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## albrazzi

JOHN GALEA said:


> has any body tried using the magnetic reed floating switches as an alternative to the normal float ones?


Not a bad idea I use them all the time on level alarm systems in my day Job. Most of the time there is a relay because they are "Dry" contacts (no voltage). A typical bilge pump switch carries power so if its compatible or you relay it then you're good. In my experience they are quite reliable.


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## Bill-Rangatira

Just got one of these

http://www.groco.net/SVC-MAN-07/Sec3/pdfs/AS-100.pdf

got the idea from here


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## WoobaGooba

I'm replacing a mercury based Rule switch with an Ultra Mini. Cut the old Rule open. The paddle with the mercury vile is clean and I assume dry (no water detected). A lot of dusty crap (unrelated to the dissection) fell out of the base and you can see the interior of the base is cruddy and I assume water got in.

Is the base designed to be waterproof? Or did I have a live 12v wire sitting in my bilge water?


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## mikel1

Very happy with water witch, boat stays in water in New England (RI) winter . . . . so far works great.


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