# Best Built Boats?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi,
Does anyone know which of the 28 to 32 footers where the best built?
(I know of the Westsail32 and the Contessa 32)
Could someone shed some light on the some of the other models known for their quality.
I have heard several boats really get a bad rap on the message board,(Columbias etc.)
Thanks
Jerry
PS:I have enquired about the Pearson Line on their mail list.Their is currently one sailing the world and it got me interested in the old Tritons.


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## thomas s (Oct 11, 2001)

Best built for what? The above mentioned have excellent reps for blue water passage making, although not popular around here . Also how much cash are you talking about. 
thomas


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would never list the Triton, Westsail or the Contessa 32 on a list of ''best built boats''. Each of these boats have their own merits and disadvantages but they would certainly never fall in the category of ''best built 28 to 32 footers. 

Tritons were run of the mill production CCA rule beating, coastal cruisers in thier day and their day was 40 years ago. You can beef one up and adapt it sail some pretty long distances but a skipper who sails a Triton around the world does so inspite of his choice of boats rather than because of the Triton''s inherent good qualities. 

The Westsails were a whole lot of fiberglass in a 32 foot length of boat. They varied pretty widely in build quality. Some had steel; boiler punchings and iron for ballast, few had a lead casting that was properly bonded to the hull. At least at some point in the Westsail''s history the decks were plywood cored. Once plywood starts to rot it is bar the door nelly because the rot easily moves with the grain in multiple directions at once. They were also notoriously blister prone. 

The Contessa 32 was a really nice RORC era race boat for its day. They sail well and are generally good handling boats with a lot going for them but again they would not fall all that close to the top of the ''best built boats''list in that size range. 

Anyway, more to the point, what is it that you are actually trying to find out?

Respectfully
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi,
From the comments so far I can only summize
that these folks I read about on the web and in magazines sailing around in the middle of the ocean are sailing pretty much whatever they can find for the money they have(kinda like me).Im sure if I had the bucks I''d get a new Fast Passage 39 but like those in the stories I read I must dig deep,try to get the best bang for the buck also.
So back to the topic:Which of the smaller boats 28'' to 32'' were known to be well built(for the open ocean or longterm Carribean style cruising).
I have a ton of scientific data(sail data spread sheets).These are great for comparing numbers but tell nothing of the actual quality of construction.
Tell me of the Cal Series of boats,Ericsons,Camper Nicholson,etc.
Example:On one of my data sheets the Ericson 29 is top choice,it has a better Capsize Ratio,comfort ratio,etc that some of the larger boats and is affordable to.
I have come to one conclusion:Balsa decks can be trouble on a very old boat.Exspensive to fix if they are water logged.I read alot about this.Where there any boats that had all glass decks.
Jerry


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Very few cruising size boats were built with solid core decks. Solid un-cored f.g. decks would be very heavy if they are to achieve the stiffness that is necessary. Having the weight of a solid glass deck, that high above the center of bouyancy would greatly impair seaworthiness and seakindliness.

Balsa Core decks are not inherently problematic. Properly constructed they will last an extremely long time. I have recently been aboard a 35 year old Pearson that had balsa core decks which surveyed without any voids or problems. Balsa core decks that are not maintained obviously more problematic than high density closed cell foam but far better than plywood decks. 

The thing about end-grain balsa is that theoretically the cells are oriented to absorb resin and seal the individual cells of the wood. Rot in Balsa,as with most woods, spreads along the cell lines. If you seal the ends of the Balsa theoretically rot would be kept very localized. The problem occurs where holes have been bored in the deck, exposing end grain and compressing the fibers. This permits water to move into the fibers and cause rot. As rot occurs sheer and freeze-thaw cycles peel away the surface of adjacent fibers from the end of balsa fiber and allows the rot to spread. 

Still, except in the worst cases, core rot is usually pretty limited and relatively repairable. The key is to find a boat that does not have core rot and to then maintain it. 

Back to your question at hand, it sounds like you are looking for a well built boat that can take you to the Carribean and back. Looking at surrogate formulas such as capsize ratio,and comfort index really tell you absolutely nothing about the boats in question including capsize resistance and comfort. These formaulas are terribly misleading. Using these types of simplified calculations really does not direct you to a boat intended to for offshore use. For example the Ericson 29 that you mention was a nice little coastal cruiser but the build quality (in the pre-Pacific Seacraft era) and detailing was never intended as an offshore cruiser.

I think that you need to back up a bit, and define your goals more narrowly, spend a bunch of time crawling around the list of "usual suspects'' to understand how they are actually constructed and how well they actually hold up. And then you should be able to end up with a short list of boats and criteria that will allow you to make reasoned decisions.

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think that boats suitable for the Caribean and boats suitable for offshore are often (especially at the low end of the dollar range) two different boats.

A good boat for the Caribean is one that has plenty of space, outstanding light and ventilation, a large cockpit and a shallow draft.

A good offshore boat may (depending on the school of thought) have a much smaller cockpit, a more narrow beam (less distance to be shot across down below), fewer and smaller portlights and a deeper draft. [there are many more differences and again I stress, the above is dependent on the school of thought]. In addition, many people like an uncored hull for sailing to unknown parts as they may be less problematic and easier to repair, while some people in the Caribean praise a cored hull for its insulation.

The above descriptionis are for illustrative purposes only.

The point is that it might be important to look at your real requirement and ask the question again. Do you really need an offshore boat... or do you need a boat that will be able to cross the Stream to get to the Caribean. And... why 28-32 ft???

Hope this helps.

Best of luck.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

It might help for you to state your budget for this purchase. For example, two boats I would suggest as being up to the task are the Allied Seawind II, and the Southern Cross 31. Both fit into your arbitrary size range, and both boats are very capable of blue water sailing -- assuming there are no other maintenance issues with the particular boats you find. But I have no idea if they fit into your budget.

I agree with Jeff H. that all the formula stuff is interesting, but ultimately no indicator of quality. This seems to be a more common thing for folks to want to hang their hats on what some formula says. But the best criteria is examining a boat thoroughly for how well it was made, how well it''s been maintained, and what did the deisigner have in mind for it to begin with. Not many designers of production boats set out to design something to go around the world. Most design something more suitable for "coastal cruising" which in itself is a nebulous concept, but that may be good enough for what you want to do assuming the boat you find doesn''t have major problems.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi again,
Thanks for all your input.
I purchased a book called "The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat" via the internet and it arrived this a.m.
From first glance it looks great.

Regards,
Jerry
PS:Someone here recommended this book to me a while back.Dont remember who they were but thanks.


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## thomas s (Oct 11, 2001)

I have to stick up for the contessa and westsail. While I wont say they are the best built , what boat is ?(probally my bucket boat I built as a kid,five gallon paint jugs strapped to a pallot.) The contessa was built to Lloyds standards,for all you paper sailors, calculations show she will heel to 157 degrees before capsizing.This boat has completed many circumnavigations ,a rounding of cape horn against the wind, best of all it was the only boat to finish the 79 fastnet when a force 10 gale forced every other boat in her class of 58 boats to drop out. You cannot ever say the westsail is not a well built boat, what kinda boat washed up on the beach perfectly intact during the storm of the century? thomas


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I, quite frankly, am not sure of the value of a "Lloyds" certified boat. As I understand it, the Lloyds certification is for the HULL, not the boat in toto. I have inspected (I am not a surveyor, nor do I play one on TV) two different 80''s era Moody''s, also Llyods certified. Both hulls were fine, but I found the rest of the boat and the remainder of the construction lacking. Yes, they were better than most, but ... I thought the construction of the cabin top and deck, the Hull to deck joint and a few other places very thin and the finish in both cases was just not very good. I would not take either boat (a 36 and a 41) anywhere.

I have never been aboard a Contessa 32, they are hard to find. The design looks very appealing. 

The Westsail lore is high, their number''s are good (if you are into the heavy boat club as I am). But... I believe Jeff H pointed out above, many were kits and owner finished. Thus quality will tend to vary. 

All the best


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## thomas s (Oct 11, 2001)

True, many were bought in kit form,but ballast was always factory installed and decks and hull were always joined and bonded. 
thomas


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Actually, not of Westsails were sold with the ballast factory installed. When I was in Florida I watched a guy pouring concrete that was mixed with iron scrap and lead recovered from shooting ranges and tire shops into one. 

Jeff


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## canopus22 (Feb 20, 2006)

*Best Boat Built*

I used to live in Costa Mesa, CA and often stopped by Where the 27' Bristol Channel Cutters were being built and for my money it's one of the strongest built ships out there. Some interiors were finished by the owners but most are completed in house. There was/is no stinting on quality, all perifials were top quality. Many are to found all over the world and the very few that come up for resale are few and far between and expensive as compared to similar sized boats. Years before my move to CA, I lived on the Niagara Frontier and had the good fortune to meet the late George Hinterhoeller who built many fine boats including the Niagara, C&C, and the Nonsuch. He was a fanatic on quality and fit. After have puchased a HR 25 from him, I asked him how strong the boat was. His answer:" I'ts as strong as your ability to sail her, handle it properly and she'll survive anything." His words were prophetic, the next year I got caught in a horrific storm on Lake Ontario. I didn't believe I would get through it, but I did what I had to do and The HR 25 didn't fail me.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

"...I have to stick up for the contessa and westsail... You cannot ever say the westsail is not a well built boat, what kinda boat washed up on the beach perfectly intact during the storm of the century?"

Thomas,
The kinda of boat (Westsail) apparently is a boat with such poor seakeeping behavior that the crew would risk their lives to get off of it even though it were in no danger of sinking...

If by "well built" you mean "solidly constructed" then Westsail may fit your definition, but that may only be a good definition for picking your barrel for Niagra Falls it leaves a lot out as far as ocean cruising or pleasure sailing goes. Examples IMHO would be that Westsails are painfully slow, with very limited space below, and poor seakeeping characteritics due to excessive displacement. Not to mention that many were home finished so the quality of the boat can vary from OK production to total trash. Old looking and fat don't make for a better boat...

Just my ten cents...


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## Irwin32 (Jul 1, 2001)

*Look at what works*

One source I would look into is Practical Sailor who do have resources to look into a wide variety of used boats.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Practical Sailor's annual boat buying guides are pretty good, too.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I sail a Downeast 32, in the heavy boat class. Every once in awhile I want a faster sailing boat until the wind picks up, anything over 20mph and my boat will go with the best of them and at 12-15K I may be a little slower but as I live on the boat, it gives me the comfort to live on it, cook on it and generally enjoy being on the water and not hanging on for dear life. I've sailed on Lake Superior for years, now in Florida for my second winter on the boat having taken it back and forth to Michigan. We will start our journey north and follow spring up the east coast, across the great lakes and back to our home in Houghton, mi. next week. In my opinion and for the type of sailing I do I think my boat serves me well and it still makes my heart go when see it at anchor. So I guess I give a thumbs up to the very sturdy downeast 32.
scott
www.geocities.com/svchipahoy


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## windship (May 4, 2002)

The Westsail is 3000lbs heavier than the Downeast.

Dennis


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

But at 17000lbs I think it is in the heavy boat class, mine is way more than 17000lbs with 100 gal water, 75gal of diesel, 4 6v golf cart batteries, a sound system and all the stuff we have on board after living on the boat for a few years, as well as 125ft of 3/8 chain, 3 anchors, dingy and outboard. It is not a racer for sure !!!
scotty
www.cdbaby.com/scottperkins


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## PuffinIP31 (Aug 19, 2003)

Jerry,

If you're looking for a "best built, known for quality" boat, designed for open ocean and long-term Carribean cruising, you need to include Island Packets in your list. That's what IP's are and what they're designed for. Over the years, IP's have been built in 27, 29, 31, 32, 35, 37. 38, 40, 42, 44, 45, and 48 models, with a 40' pilot house motorsailer due this summer. The 29, 31, and 32 could certainly fill your needs. Yes, they are relatively expensive, but I believe you're paying for the quality of contruction and systems. I should note that I'm a little biased, having purchased my IP 31 new, and have been cruising New England waters for the last 19 seasons.


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## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

Are we talking motorsailors now?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

I thought IPs were actally trawlers with sticks taller than the typical trawlers! That's one of the great things about sailing, you can always learn something new. Denr, Thanks for the clarification on this.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

*Motorsailers*

Denr,
IPs are straddling that proverbial motorsailer/sailboat fence. I'll tilt the scales with the popular quote: "Nauticats are the best built motorsailers in the world".


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Why does the phrase......different strokes for diffferent folks .......keep playing in my head? A better question would be...what's the best cruiser or racer or motorsailer or....ad infinitum. Not to mention....best built how? In other words, it's an open ended question without a definite answer.

Interesting reading though!

John


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## sailandoar (Mar 20, 2006)

*Good Old Boat Magazine*

Look into "Good Old Boat Magazine". We recently gave away seveal years of back issues and were always thrilled with the articles and premise of the publication.

Most folks don't really want to go out and spend BIG $$$ for a new boat such as are advertised in the many of the popular boating magazines. Instead, imagine a magazine devoted to "Good......Old....Boats". They feature different designs in each issue and do an analysis on design, construction, attributes, problems/issues, market $/availability.

If you were to look through their back issues on their webiste and find some of your boats of interest it would be a valuable resource. Your could buy back issues or post for someone who has the issue to send it to you etc etc.

http://www.goodoldboat.com/


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## Rogertheengineer (Mar 22, 2004)

*Best Built*

What is the best built car?

I quote that to demostrate that there is no correct answer to your question. All boats are a compromise. Factors include size,bigger tend to be more seaworthy eg a wave that bothers a sailboat would not bother an aircraft carrier! Cost-inevitably everthing is dictated by a budget. Volume, traditional narrow beamed long keel boat beat well but diffficult to manouver and more cramped inside. Ventilation -many opening portholes etc for hot climates but every one a potential problem for leaks and a weak point in a storm. I could go on for pages but suggest you learn a little about yacht design and suggest the book by Steve Killing who was involved in a number of America Cup boats.

It looks to me that you are expecting to find a preferred shortlist, the best way would be to sort out what you intend to do and find others who have done it. If there was one answer to your question there would only be one make of boat sold.


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## merc2dogs (Jun 5, 2004)

Why does it seem that every question regarding quality of about a boat get turned into suitability issues?

The question was best built, not best suited, best built would imply the boat with the fewest owner complaints as to structural failures, best suited would be for whatever purpose intended, and have a different answer for every situation.

my triton is well built, everything is solid, and I realy have no comlaints as to the construction, I admit it is not suited for some uses, but as to construction, there's not a lot that was wrong with the way it was built
my boat is approximately 40 years old, and is as solid as the day she was made, no soft spots in the deck, mast beam is still in great shape, stantions (except where they caught an oak trees when some moron cut it down) are still in factory condition, does show some wear here and there, but hey, it's 40 years old, I'm starting to show some wear at 45 so can't complain.

suitability is not equivelant to build quality.

I'm a carpenter, and while I generaly go for the best built tools, many of the best built ones are unsuited for my use, table saws for instance, I use a small bench style tablesaw, not of the best build quality, but it is immensly suitanble for my use, the best built one would seldom be used by me because I'd need a few friends to help me move to the jobsite, best suited is one I can put in the back of the truck and carry around myself. 

my method of finding best build quality is to find a group dedicated to that boat, and spend an afternoon browsing it, if I find most questions are about how to fix something or getting a better replacements for a bunch of constantly breaking factory parts, it would indicate that there are some serious build issues. If there are few repair questions, it would imply the opposite


ken.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I don't think Island Packets - other than the new 40 footer - qualify as motorsailers. Light winds can be a problem, but just get a bigger sail<g>

As far as "best built" - that's going to mean different things to different people, but IPs are certainly "well built" if sturdiness is your criteria. The decks are solid core (no balsa), the hulls are strongly built, the deck-to-hull joint is sturdy, the mast is keel-stepped, the rudder and propeller are well-protected by the full keel, balast is internal. I read a story about an IP (35 I think) that was T-boned by a similair-sized powerboat (about 18,000 lbs) doing 18 knots on autopilot. The powerboat hit the IP at the shrouds and drove up over the rail. The starboard shrouds and lifelines were carried away, and the IP was dismasted by the collision. The powerboat slid off the rail and immediately began sinking as the bow was a mass of shredded fiberglass. A towboat was luckly near-by and got several bilge pumps into the powerboat to keep it afloat long enough to be towed into the slings and hoised out of the water.

The captain of the IP cleared away his tattered rigging, fired up the engine, and motored back to the dock. There were three surface cracks in the hull at the point of impact, but no leaks as the cracks did not penetrate the hull.

I won't argue that they're the "best built" boats. But they're good enough for me.

-John


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

John,
It's great you enjoy your unbridled enthusiasm for IPs. My personal opinion is that a builder whose boats are unquestionably overweight and slow can't be the "best" of anything, or even very good, as far as sailing boats go. But I admit to being not too well informed on IPs, as I never actually even looked at one (why would I&#8230, My opinions are solely based on the fact that day-in and day-out, when I see an IP, it's usually under power, especially when passagemeking,.,,What can I say, that's what I see&#8230;

As to your enthusiasm, your comments are somewhat clueless&#8230;for example, no builder makes solid decks, even going back to the first Pearson Triton. Here's what IP says about their construction "Decks utilize Island Packet's PolyCore,® a proprietary coring material for reduced weight with increased panel rigidity&#8230;"This fact is about as "boatbuilding 101" as they come, so you might read some more books before offering opinions on the "best"&#8230;


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well, Sailingfool, I was using "solid" to mean "not balsa" so if that makes me clueless in your eyes, so be it.

I am a bit confused however why you would call someone clueless on the forum. I would've thought a sailing forum would be free of the normal Internet flame wars. 

An IP31 has a D/L of about 250. That's generally considered "medium" by most boatbuilding 101 books I've read. It's also roughly what a Catalina 310 weighs in at. A Hunter 310 has a D/L around 180, suitable for it's club racer/weekend cruiser role. A Pacific Seacraft PH is over 400 - the real heavyweight. 

Merc2Dogs has it right - suitability wasn't the question. He thought "best built" meant fewest problems, judged by owner complaints. That seems like a pretty good definition. My boat is only half as old as his, but it's in great shape too. Our owners group has very few repair issues beyond ordinary wear and tear. Most of the conversations are about the best way to add upgrades. 

But, as both Merc2Dogs and I said, "Best built" will mean different things to different people, so if what it means to you is "lightest" boat, then by all means, enjoy. There are days when the wind is blowing all of 5 knots that I resort to the Iron Genny myself. I plan to deal with that by getting a 180% Drifter this year.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

I think that everyone loves their boat and probably feels it's the best boat for him/her. So what is the measure? Performance, sea keeping, or is it quality?

The way this post began, best built is the question. So, what are our boats made of? This article by a well respected surveyor is a real eye opener and in my opinion is a must read. Hurricanes hits are a great way to determine what a boat is made of.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

Rick in Florida


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