# America's Cup 2017



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Have I been living under a rock, or has nobody been talking much about this year's race? Is nobody suing anybody this time?  Are smaller foiling cats (a good thing IMO) or the less accessible venue making a difference? The race had some good momentum coming out of the last battle in '13.

I had actually planned to make the crossing in June, but those plans were skunked by the crew. Logistics were a bit tough and likely would have consumed too much of our sailing season in New England.


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

From my perspective, they have gone so far away from what real sailors and cruisers sail, that there is no real connection to it anymore. They have a huge image problem, and they created it. The designs are cutting edge and rely on technology so much, in my opinion, and it is less about tactics, and the crew. Most of my friends are now more interested in the VOR than the Americas Cup. My father in law helped in designing many of the boats in the mid 70' through late 80's for the US team, now I could care less.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SV Siren said:


> From my perspective, they have gone so far away from what real sailors and cruisers sail, that there is no real connection to it anymore. They have a huge image problem, and they created it. The designs are cutting edge and rely on technology so much, in my opinion, and it is less about tactics, and the crew. Most of my friends are now more interested in the VOR than the Americas Cup. My father in law helped in designing many of the boats in the mid 70' through late 80's for the US team, now I could care less.


I felt pretty much the same way going into the last Cup. I changed my opinion, when I saw the announcing and graphics that laid out the race, like a real sporting event. Certainly, the comeback made a huge sporting difference, even if I'm no Ellison fan. Not like the days of Dennis Connor, which were the only sport to be more boring on TV than golf, despite the boats closer connection to the rest of us. I did think the last Cup was raced on boats that were too dangerous and apparently, so did they.

The VOR is an amazing race, but is ridiculously too long for the mass market. The ACC finals are just about max duration.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I think the current AC is now more about crew compared to the past. It now takes a bit of athleticism to just keep the boat upright and moving.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

We are on our way to Bermuda in a week or so. Were in SF for the last one. If you think fewer tactics are involved, then you either haven't been paying attention or have selective bias. There were more tacking duels and lead changes in a single race last time than in the entire series event of the previous mono races. I think I read that the SF race series had more tacking and lead changes than all of the modern times AC races combined.

The athleticism to just stay on those boats exceed almost anything in today's professional sports, let alone sail and operate them. They are on extreme training programs that have been ongoing for years - sophisticated equipment, special diets, technical monitoring, etc. These athletes are certainly WAY above the level ever required to sail anywhere - particularly the fat-soaked, lard-ass, lazy AC drift races of the past (was Dennis Conner or his contemporaries ever in even moderate high school athletic shape?).

Mark


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SV Siren said:


> From my perspective, they have gone so far away from what real sailors and cruisers sail, that there is no real connection to it anymore. They have a huge image problem, and they created it. The designs are cutting edge and rely on technology so much, in my opinion, and it is less about tactics, and the crew. Moest of my friends are now more interested in the VOR than the Americas Cup. My father in law helped in designing many of the boats in the mid 70' through late 80's for the US team, now I could care less.


I thought this when the American showed up one year with a catamaran against a monohull and made a farce of the AC that year.

Many racing sports such as cars are the hotbed of innovation for future use. If you want to test sailing skills tune into the Olympics where everyone has the same boat.

The old 12 meter boats are beautiful and fantastic and race in one design classes. However we're only owned and sailed by elite.

The Americas Cup now is a combo of design skill, athletic prowess, sailing and tactical skill and racing ability.
They are the pinnacle of teamwork. Times have moved forward as has the Cup racing.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Yea, I'd rather watch the Volvo, but I also enjoy watching these high tech foiling machines. It will be TV and youtube for me, but I will watch it and do enjoy it. The foiler's are so fast that it seems to me that a lot of the race is over at the start; however, I remember some close tacking situations in SF that were pretty darn exciting. Hope there is a lot of that in Bermuda.

We help out at the Volvo when it comes to Newport so I am admittedly biased. We were there to watch a run from South America end with the 2 lead boats within a minute of each other at the finish after 6,000 miles that took my breath away. Matched boats, a crew race and an open ocean race to boot...with in port races for live spectating.

These two events are different, IMHO both are well worth following and do a lot to promote and advance this activity that we so love.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I see they have an app, which seems can be used to watch the races live. I remember having trouble gettting to watch the races, when I was out sailing myself. I think I had to get NBC Sports app and sign up with my home cable account, or something like that. Hopefully this app works well and has the same level of graphics as the broadcast did last time.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> If you want to test sailing skills tune into the Olympics where everyone has the same boat.
> 
> The old 12 meter boats are beautiful and fantastic and race in one design classes.


Keep in mind that these AC boats are one design class with everyone having essentially the same boat. Yes, there can be tweaking differences within the design rule limits, but that was the same with the 12 meters and many other classes.

Mark


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

The movie Wind comes to mind. 11.30 and on. Note 11.55.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I'm not understanding this point, and don't have the movie. Are those numbers time frames? Maybe summarize for us?

Mark


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

colemj said:


> I'm not understanding this point, and don't have the movie. Are those numbers time frames? Maybe summarize for us?


"The big boats get the glory but the small boats make the sailor."

Some outstanding shots of International 14s racing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> Keep in mind that these AC boats are one design class with everyone having essentially the same boat. Yes, there can be tweaking differences within the design rule limits, but that was the same with the 12 meters and many other classes.
> 
> Mark


As I read it, they have provided more flexibility in design advantage this time, albeit probably too subtle to notice by eye. Given Ellison was penalized in the last AC for violating design rules, I presume the defender changed them.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

That penalty was for a previous race in the AC45 used in the exhibition races in the year leading up to the cup, not the AC72 used in the cup races.

They are still using rules similar to the box rules used in 12M and other AC races in the past. Each advantage carries a corresponding disadvantage that one must weigh in trade off.

Mark


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> As I read it, they have provided more flexibility in design advantage this time, albeit probably too subtle to notice by eye. Given Ellison was penalized in the last AC for violating design rules, I presume the defender changed them.


The hulls of each boat are basically identical by rule; however, each boat has a great deal of flexibility in the designs of their foils, wings (the air foils; what would have been the sails) and their power systems (i.e., how they power the mechanisms that raise or lower the foils. One of the boats is using pedal power rather than the traditional stand up winch grinders).


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SV Siren said:


> From my perspective, they have gone so far away from what real sailors and cruisers sail, that there is no real connection to it anymore. They have a huge image problem, and they created it. The designs are cutting edge and rely on technology so much, in my opinion, and it is less about tactics, and the crew. Most of my friends are now more interested in the VOR than the Americas Cup. My father in law helped in designing many of the boats in the mid 70' through late 80's for the US team, now I could care less.


That's pretty much how I felt about the 12 meters. Other than both being monohulls, what did those boats have in common with the average cruising boat of the same era?
Never in my life have I been so excited by innovations to this sport that foiling has brought. Never have I wanted to sail any boat as much as I want to sail a big foiling cat! For this, and this alone, I envy the younger sailors of today and the possibility that they could do this in their lifetimes.
I know without a doubt that I could handle sailing 'round the Horn', but I'm not at all sure that I have what it takes to skipper one of these boats at 40+ miles an hour, as they are such a foreign waterborne platform.
We had planned to be in Bermuda for the races, but we are booked through mid June, so it'll have to be next time.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Last night tried to watch the race which was canceled due to winds around 30 kts. There is a window that these boats work, and a window where they don't I guess. Interesting discussion about foils getting too fast for the design window and stalling at high speed, and what the implications of that might be of high speed foiling stall. Also some talk about an adjustment on the rudder foil that allows them to apply righting moment to the windward rudder which evidently was an improvement since SF, and run faster without tipping over. The replayed the SF finals, which was fun to watch. 

Looks like NBC Sports Network is covering it pretty extensively over the next few weeks...pretty much daily, LV rounds now. DVR set.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Doesn't seem to be a good scandal to get folks attention this year. I guess a book came out last year that said Oracle cheated in their comeback at the last AC, by pumping the wing. All sports do better with a villain.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The boats don't have any issue sailing in 30kts, but the wind speed alone doesn't tell the story. The weather here was just nasty Friday - drizzly, foggy and very gusty with 3' waves in the harbor because of the direction. Additionally, the system bringing that weather approached very close to Bermuda and it wasn't possible to predict just how close the night before the races. If it had come South and East just a little more, the winds would have been 40-50kts. The spectator fleet would have been uncomfortable in Saturday's conditions and possibly even unsafe. Then consider it was the opening day with ceremonies, celebrities, a big show, etc. They wanted good weather for that.

Saturday was brilliant and the racing was everything one would hope for. Bermuda is going all out here down to the people in the streets. The local excitement and support outstrips anything San Fran offered last time.

I must admit, I thought this was a silly decision by Ellison, but the venue, weather, local support, etc is almost perfectly designed for this type of competition.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The teams can have 4 sets of foils with different designs. The tradeoffs are primarily in span and aspect, with minor differences in planform. Long spans provide more lift in light winds, but more drag in higher winds. Higher aspect is faster in high winds, but stalls in low winds. So they try to cover specific boat speed (wind speed) ranges and estimate what they will experience during a race when choosing which foils to put on the boat for the day. 

The main foils can be moved around two centers - camber (inboard/outboard) and rake (fore/aft). This provides angles of attack for lift and drift.

The rudders can be pivoted from the top, which changes the angle of attack of the fixed T-foil on their tips. This angle also provides lift. So they can move the windward rudder in one direction to pull that hull down, and the leeward rudder in the opposite direction to lift that hull up.

One thing that surprised me was just how much twist they can get in the main wingsail.

Mark


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Mark

They all look bow down to me quite a lot. Any comments on why that's so? Good info BTW.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The bow down aspect is to lift as much of the foils out of the water as possible - particularly the rudders. It seems almost like angels dancing on pin heads, but at this level, even a few inches of extra, extremely thin, foil in the water costs speed.

Also, I suppose, since these boats go 3X windspeed, keeping 40-50kts of wind from getting under the boat helps with stability. We have seen a couple of "wheelies" already where the bow suddenly lifts into the air and the foils stall. I can't say that is from wind, though, because the foils themselves are highly sensitive and provide most of the boat attitude - and most of the "wheelies" are being done by the boat with the less-experienced crew in these machines.

BTW, the helmsman controls these foils with devices on their steering wheels. Some have levers, some buttons, and Japan has interesting twist grips on the wheels. So to steer the boat, the helmsman is not only working the boat direction, he is working the attitude, amount of lift, the changing angles during tacks/jibes, the leeway, etc. Steering one of these things isn't for the faint of heart or for those with limited focus or attention spans.

If you remove the grinders from the equation, these boat races are almost 2-man dinghy races...

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

One needs to disbelieve much of what one knows about racing sailboats to understand these boats. The acceleration is instantaneous, so sitting dead on the start line just meters away is not a big issue strategically (tactically is another thing, as Ben Ainsle found out against Barker yesterday).

In general, it takes 15kts of boatspeed to get on foil. This is achieved in 6kts of wind! Different foils changes this slightly, but it is the ballpark.

A minor and short favorable puff or windshift doesn't just shorten the distance over a rival - it can allow you to roll right over them. Just touching a hull to the water during a tack/jibe can get you rolled by a boat half a leg behind.

Downwind, these boats are chasing puffs and shifts in front of them, rather than waiting for ones behind them!

The apparent wind angle difference between upwind and downwind is 5*. For those remaining 12M enthusiasts, you won't be seeing spinnakers in these races&#8230;

For those that long for the good old days, the newest fad with billionaires now is to build modern replicas of the old J-class boats and race them. There will be 6 of them here racing during the AC events. Our friend is racing one recently out of the yard (Svea): First pictures of Svea the new J-Class yacht from Vitters | Boat International . We will likely get to look around it a bit. It won't have the big symmetrical blooper spinnakers so enamoring to those suffering from saudade, but it will have a large asymmetrical to ease your pain.

Mark


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## johnny buddha (Jan 12, 2016)

I watched Day 1 of the Louis Vuitton races yesterday - 6 races in all, most of which were start-to-finish first over the start line dominating the other boat.

There was one tacking duel - at 30 knots of boat speed. Dang.

It's been said that the current format of the Cup is meant to appeal to the X Games audience - high speed, high tech, better suited for televised viewing than traditional yacht racing. Hard to argue that last point. I remember watching the 1992 Cup and being amazed by the satellite-tracked graphics which showed the courses sailed by each boat and the laylines, which helped to explain to everyone that the seemingly large distance between the 2 boats really wasn't as big as it looked. Still, it required patience to watch the races, as they took a very long time to complete. The current races last less than 20 minutes.

I'm guessing that most of us will never sail on one of these high-tech rockets - I can't imagine the feeling of doing 40+ knots on the water, but I think it would be something like "terror". As @punahougirl84 says, "if you've gotta wear a crash helmet and Kevlar vest when you're sailing, you're doing it wrong".


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

mark

One more for you. I get the impression that the grinders and/or peddlers are charging up a hydraulic reservoir. This is as opposed to the old way of gearing the grinder to a winch. So it looks to me like they are grinding all the time pretty much and watching a pressure gauge....as apposed to grinder when they want to pull in a sheet on a winch. True?


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## johnny buddha (Jan 12, 2016)

capecodda said:


> mark
> 
> One more for you. I get the impression that the grinders and/or peddlers are charging up a hydraulic reservoir. This is as opposed to the old way of gearing the grinder to a winch. So it looks to me like they are grinding all the time pretty much and watching a pressure gauge....as apposed to grinder when they want to pull in a sheet on a winch. True?


Yep - that's what they're doing.

The commentators remarked on overhearing one of the teams saying something like "2 more maneuvers; go for 70" and how that likely meant that they intended to do 2 more tacks to complete the leg/race (can't remember which) and that the hydraulic system needed to be charged up to 70.

It's odd to see the familiar grinding motions with a completely different application. It does explain the presence of stationary bikes as the grinding mechanism on the Kiwis' boat. Before I'd read about the hydraulic system charging, I couldn't wrap my head around how the bikes were going to work for adjusting trim...


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

^^^^that's interesting john, I heard the same commentary last night. So I assume they grind in by pressing a button. Is there are reverse button or do they slip the line on the drum? Another question is what kinda capacity does the accumulator have....apparently not much if my observations are right, never seem to stop grinding!


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## johnny buddha (Jan 12, 2016)

capecodda said:


> So I assume they grind in by pressing a button. Is there are reverse button or do they slip the line on the drum? Another question is what kinda capacity does the accumulator have....apparently not much if my observations are right, never seem to stop grinding!


 @capecodda - I don't know the details of how/whether the grinders are affecting the trim of the sails or the raising/lowering and camber of the foils. On most of the boats, the helmsman has some form of controls on or near the wheel(s) - buttons or levers or something. I believe that most of the systems are moved using the hydraulic power generated by the grinders.

What confuses me about the traditionally-styled grinding pedestals (as opposed to the stationary bike style) is that on at least one of the boats I saw people grinding in both directions - a bit forward, then back, then forward again. So are these adjusting trim of the sails?


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

^^^^yea, and today I saw at least one trimmer slipping the line to ease a sheet. But there sure is a lot of grinding going on. Also heard that some the bikers were hired because they are bikers....wondering if their job is to mindlessly keep the pressure at 70 or whatever it is.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Yes, their job is to mindlessly keep the hydraulic pressure up. Many of them have no boating experience before this, and were hired for their muscle skill. But consider that this was also the case in later mono AC races, where the grinder apes also really had nothing to do with sailing the boat, or even sailing in general.

Most of the stored hydraulic pressure is used for controlling the foils, not trimming the sails. The foils are in almost constant motion just when sailing straight and flat. Tacking and jibing uses even larger amounts of stored energy - to the point where the boat can no longer stay on foil or be controlled well if tactics call for unusual activity. This happened in a raced today, where a very active dual left one boat falling off foil because they could not generate enough power.

Generating power is an extremely important part of the races. NZ is even using bicycle grinders instead of hand ones. While this seems a no brainer in regards to power production, the trade off is that it takes considerably longer to get in position to generate power. We had a great vantage point today (almost everywhere is here), and I got to closely observe boats tacking to the windward mark and jibing away from it. It is very clear that there is a significant difference in time between bicycle and hand grinders getting into position and providing power. The big question will be where that fine line lays during tacking/jibing duals between the bit extra stored power vs regaining immediate power.

This too is part of the new athletics of the sport - not a thing to be derisive about. These guys are professional athletes in professional shape in every sense. Sailing at this level has moved beyond any Walter Mitty dreams of the weekend warrior. 

This is a good thing for the sport.

Mark


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Mark

Do you know if the grinders are connected to the winches mechanically or is that part of the whole hydraulic setup. Johnny noticed, and I noticed today that some of the grinders were reversing the direction of grinding. Almost felt like a 2 speed?

Thanks for the on site commentary!


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I don't know what commentary feed you are getting from TV, but the local commentary has been incredible. The first day of races, the chief engineer for Oracle happened to be near the local broadcast booth and was pulled in for a few comments.

Holy cow.

The guy is a pure scientist and focused geek who nonchalantly proceeded to spill out incredible technical details that is surprising the broadcasters. The usual exchange goes like:

Announcer: "blah, blah, blah, Artemis seems to be leaning to windward more than NZ. Don't you think so technical guy?".

Then technical guy says "pivoting the windward rudder foil out while pivoting the leeward in provides a righting moment equal to 30 men on the windward hull. If they can get the windward hull lower than the leeward, while still keeping the raised foil span out of the water, the windward cant of the wing sail moves the center of gravity windward equivalent to another 10 men on the windward hull". 

The announcer then says: "(crickets chirping for a minute of dead air). Jesus, I never knew that."

Yesterday, Britain made a really bad move and piled into Japan, cutting a hole in their (britain) hull very close to the foil box. They came out today with a repair, but the boat was acting a bit strange, and the announcers initially thought they saw the repair failing, and ran with that. The exchange went like this:

Announcer: it looks like the repair is failing and causing them problems. What do you think, technical guy?"

TG: "I don't think it is failing (it wasn't, and the announcers later apologized for saying it was), but if it is, it is probably because they couldn't lift the boat out until very late last night (opening ceremonies), and they only had enough time to do a wet layup rather than a prepreg repair".

Announcer: "I have no idea what you are talking about."

This guy is gold. They brought him back for the second day, and I hope that continues. I have learned more in two days of listening to this guy's off hand remarks than all the targeted reading I have done.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I don't think there are any winches directly connected to anything. The entire purpose of the grinders, TMK, is to store hydraulic pressure. Everything works off of this. They do seem to sometimes go both ways, and at times seem to even go back and forth like one might on a loaded winch. I don't know if there are different speeds, or if this is just a tactic to ease muscles or increase stamina.

I'm sure technical guy knows (and I will try to learn his name).

BTW, Oracle uses a single bicycle grinder aft of the helmsman, and powered by the tactitian. This is a new thing for them. Today, technical guy was asked about this and he said that it wasn't to do with making power, but rather had to do with controlling the boat attitude. He then said "oops, I shouldn't have said that, please don't ask me any more about it."

I'm thinking Oracle is going to yank him out of the announcer booth now.

If they do, I will be contacting them and the AC org and complaining.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I don't understand the poster's complaint about lead changes. In this world, jibing duals are equal to tacking duals, and all but (I think) two of the 12 races so far have had at least one change of lead position. The starts have been nail-biting, and two or three races have literally come down to the finish line - with just 1-2 seconds between boats.

These close finish races have an extra excitement to them. They place the finish line right at the spectator seawall with almost no room to spare. These boats come burning in at 40+kts side by side and have to dump that speed once past the line in a matter of frightenly few feet before they plow into the stands. Literally, two or three boat lengths.

The result is that they blow the foils and put the nose down and pretty much become a submarine - water over the entire boat, drenched crew, and giant spray everywhere. Just spectacular, until you realize the G-forces involved in immediately going from 40+ to zero. Pretty much crash test dummies.

When they are ensured of the win, they more carefully come off foil before the line and go over it on their hulls at slower speeds.

Slower means only 20kts.

Mark


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Wow, Mark you sure got the announcer thing right. Where did they find these guys? The scupper is a crack in the hull? They also seem to understand very little about sailing in general. Can we get Gary Jobson or someone at least 
for that part? I think they had him for day 1. 

I heard those comments from the techie too, he's terrific.


Doesn't matter though, I'm hooked. DVR every day, and fast forward for adds. The video coverage is great, lots of times I want to turn down the sound.


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

The app for android works well so far. i'll see if it works as well with live coverage. Does anybody know the nationalities of the skippers and tacticians? Altho my ear is not the best at distinguishing accents, i have yet to hear an American accent including Team Oracle.
jon


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Wish we got coverage here in Canada, about the only thing in sports right now is lame a** hockey....I hate pro hockey with a passion!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Tanski said:


> Wish we got coverage here in Canada, about the only thing in sports right now is lame a** hockey....I hate pro hockey with a passion!


If you have a smart phone or tablet, get the official app.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

capecodda said:


> Can we get Gary Jobson


Good god, no. They had him for the last AC races and he was awful. He doesn't understand these new boats or racing at all. They finally pulled him out halfway through the series when he started complaining that they never flew spinnakers, and openly speculating why that was (the fact that the apparent wind angle downwind was only 33* was not part of his speculations - instead, he was focusing on crew skill, etc).

Pretty much all of these old guard commentator guys are just terrible at this new version of the sport.

Tech guy is excellent, and last time Jobson was replaced by Artemis's helmsman (I think - it may have been another) after they lost the LV series, and he was excellent. I suspect they will do something similar for the finals when this LV series is complete.

Mark


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Maybe a dumb question, but here goes: why is Oracle racing in the Challenger series? I thought the LV series was to determine the boat that gets to race the Defender for the Cup?


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

mstern said:


> Maybe a dumb question, but here goes: why is Oracle racing in the Challenger series? I thought the LV series was to determine the boat that gets to race the Defender for the Cup?


My question as well. But so far, i have really enjoyed the format of the races and the boats. i have followed the AC since the 60's and this is the best ever so far.

Disclosure: i am building a hydrofoil catamaran, so i am biased.

jon


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

This LV series comes with an additional prize besides getting to challenge Oracle for the cup: the winner of the LV earns a point going into the final series. 

So if Oracle wins the LV, then the second place boat becomes the challenger, but Oracle gains the point. If Oracle doesn't win, they are still the defender in the finals, but start the finals a point behind.

Mark


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> If you have a smart phone or tablet, get the official app.


No smart phone or tablet, my cell makes phone calls and basically texts, more or less...


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Yesterday's races were pretty slow, but still exciting. Winds ranged from 4-10kts and shifted regularly 30*. Twice during the race, the boats were foiling at 24kts in 6kts of wind!!!!

That's a "Big Freakin' Sail" in my book.

Often, it was like watching a large Hobie cat race because the boats couldn't get up on foil. The racing seemed slow as molasses, and we were joking that it was like watching the old 12 meter racing, until we realized the boats were still doing 13-15kts in displacement mode.

Not like watching old 12 meter racing at all…

The on-site announcing is now rotating technical guys from different teams through the booth. This is OK, but not as good as that first Oracle guy. I think he was too much the scientist/engineer for Oracle, with the typical open mind-open mouth found with these types (disclaimer, I'm of this type), and Oracle didn't want him spilling more beans on their operations.

But the others have been doing a great job of explaining the geek side of things. However, it's not the bare-naked exposure the first technical guy was providing.

I suspect the announcing on TV is different than we are getting on the water. Here, the announcing is done from the village and broadcasted on VHF channel 20. It is different broadcasting than is being done on the local TV station here - which I think is the official feed for the rest of the world.

One thing the TV broadcast does here is not understanding the start sequence. They cut to commercial at the beginning of the 2:00 start entry and return just as the boats are about to cross the start line. So viewers miss all of the excitement of the hunt, hooks, boxing outs, penalties, etc of the actual start maneuvers.

Is this the same on the TV back there?

They have wisely decided to back the finish line further away from the cement wall and spectator stands. The finishings in the first day of races were quite interesting with such a short distance to drop from 40kts to 0kts. Probably hard on the boats, also. Attached is a picture of Oracle putting on the brakes after crossing the line (this was taken from the seawall with an iPad with no zoom).

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Races won by large margins don't tell the story. At these speeds, on a tight course, small mistakes are greatly magnified in significance. Simply touching down after a tack or jibe can cost a boat a large lead. These athletes must perform perfectly with no mistakes.

Surprisingly, there have been many lead changes and outright comebacks after mistakes. The sailors never give up, hunt constantly, and jump quickly to capitalize on opponent mistakes.

Just how a professional sport should be.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The stadium arena here is fantastic. The organizers have done a good job balancing the needs of the race course with the desire of spectator boats to be part of the action. I was quite surprised how they favor the spectators - we get fantastic up-close looks at the boats and the racing.

Of course, we have to pick a spot, so we miss close looks at other spots. We have been on the start box, on the windward mark, on the leeward mark and at the finish. The start box and windward marks are the best spots to me. We could position along the marks and see the middle of the jibing/tacking, but don't find that as interesting as being at choke points in the race.

Mark


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

colemj said:


> One thing the TV broadcast does here is not understanding the start sequence. They cut to commercial at the beginning of the 2:00 start entry and return just as the boats are about to cross the start line. So viewers miss all of the excitement of the hunt, hooks, boxing outs, penalties, etc of the actual start maneuvers.
> 
> Is this the same on the TV back there?


I watched the broadcasts last weekend on NBCSN, and they were showing most of the starting sequences, starting a shade before the 2:00 entry time, through the actual start. Lots of commentary on the strategies being used.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Love the updates. Wish I could see those speeds in such light winds in person. Thanks.


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

i've been watching on the Android app. i've tried the view from the "satellite" but its soooo high up that it has become boring. i really enjoy the view from the boat, but they only show the crew on one of the boats - today it was Sweden, USA, USA again, and GB. i really miss the view from the helicopter that i found on the first day. The view from the boat however, shows the excitement of a close cross and the relative speeds that they are going. 

i dont believe that the bicycle guy behind the helmsman on Oracle (USA) is the tactician, he appears to be one of the grinders. i notice that on all the boats, the tactician crosses first on a tack, followed immediately by a grinder. Right now the guy that operates the bicycle on Oracle is on the windward bow sighting something.

i am amazed that there is not more interest in this on the two sailboat forums that i frequent. What is it? Are we sailors such troglodytes that we can't appreciate the cutting edge? Or is it jealosy?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The person on Oracle's bicycle has been Slingsby, as far as I have seen. He is their tactician, although it seems like the helmsman is often calling tactics and making the fast decisions.

Today, there was a discussion in the announcer booth about Oracle's bicycle grinder allowing Slingsby to spend more time balancing the boat. I didn't understand that, but noticed that Slingsby was spending time lying up in front of the mast.

Earlier in the series, an engineer from Oracle stated that the bicycle grinder had less to do with power and more to do with boat attitude. He wouldn't elaborate further.

Maybe it has to do with providing quick bursts of hydraulic pressure, which could allow them to take a man off of providing power for a bit of time and use him as movable ballast? Then he comes back and quickly makes up the lost power from being absent?

Mark


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

colemj said:


> Maybe it has to do with providing quick bursts of hydraulic pressure, which could allow them to take a man off of providing power for a bit of time and use him as movable ballast? Then he comes back and quickly makes up the lost power from being absent?
> Mark


Maybe it is a tacit admission that the bicycle grinders are more efficient, altho when he was on the starboard bow, he seemed to be sighting something and then he yelled back to the helm.

jon


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

If he is adjusting the attitude of the boat, how could that be done except thru adjusting the fore and aft angle of the rudder, thereby adjusting the attitude of the foil on the rudder?

And a question to all: does anybody else notice that there are blades sticking up where the main lifting foils are hoisted and lowered, and that these blades seem to be twisting when the foils are hoisted and lowered? What could that be for?

jon


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I don't understand what he is doing or controlling, and the engineer who said that was very obtuse about it. I suppose shifting his body weight around could be considered adjusting the attitude of the boat, and he is spending a lot of time laying in front of the mast.

I noticed yesterday that he only seemed to be on the bicycle when going downwind, I never saw him on it going upwind, and then, he seemed to pedal only occasionally and it didn't appear to be for needing hydraulic pressure. For example, he was back there pedaling on and off when the boat was reaching to the finish line with a insurmountable lead. It would seem that the hydraulic pressure needed in that situation would be minimal and easily handled by the grinders.

Are you talking about the foil guides above the hull that the foils slide against? The twisting is because the foil roots are "S" shaped so that when they are lowered, they move outboard of the hull and provide more righting moment to the boat. When raised, they move inboard again, which also helps to raise the foil tips more out of potentially dragging in the water when the hull is low.

Mark


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## johnny buddha (Jan 12, 2016)

Hmm... seems like sailnet forums and Chrome (on MacOS) aren't playing nicely together for me - I can't click "Like" on posts, and a post I'd have sworn I submitted yesterday never showed up. *shrug* Let's try again.

While watching the Round Robin racing on NBCSN, there are views from above (drone? helicopter? big o' crane with a zoom lens?) that show not only the ley lines and distance-between-boats lines, but also circles on the water behind each boat to indicate the path they've taken. These circles seem to appear at regular time intervals (maybe 1 second?), so my theory is that the proximity of the circles to each other are an indication of distance traveled by the boat during that time interval - boat going more slowly, circles are close together, boat up on foils, circles farther apart.

Have these circles been discussed during the broadcast and I've just missed it?

The wife-unit found a link to the LiveLine technology which does the tracking and displays the graphics, but the site doesn't describe the circles other than as "a trail of dotted lines [is] used to track the path of each [...] boat".

Any definitive answers?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Helicopters.

Yes, the circles plop out at set time intervals, so their spacing represents speed.

Mark


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

johnny buddha said:


> Hmm... seems like sailnet forums and Chrome (on MacOS) aren't playing nicely together for me - I can't click "Like" on posts, and a post I'd have sworn I submitted yesterday never showed up.
> 
> The wife-unit found a link to the LiveLine technology which does the tracking and displays the graphics,


i'm using Chrome on MacOS and have no problems. Can you post or PM me the link you mentioned?
thanks
jon


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I enjoy watching it, but....
I think we're know getting closer to stadium racing/entertainment events.
This week is sailing, next week is monster trucks, the following week is drone wars....

We keep pushing...and eventually we ruin it...in most all things commercial....tis life...


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Yes, this and the last AC are definitely stadium racing. By purposeful and careful design. But I'm not sure why that is bad for the sport or any less than offshore racing? The old AC campaigns were also stadium racing - just very poorly designed and executed ones.

If it is the commercialism that is in question, have you taken a good look at any other non-stadium sailing event?

On the other hand, a monster truck event in this AC stadium would be interesting, if not quite damp...

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I agree with you Mark. I think this style of boat and racing is the only thing that could have saved the AC. It's incredible to watch.

Thanks for the updates.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

There is a down side to this style of boat and racing that isn't immediately apparent until you see it. The crew have no head on board, and no place to put the boat out of the way to go overboard. The result is some very interesting/disturbing/humorous (depending on one's personal sense of propriety) views for the spectators, since the spectator area is the only place to get out of the course to do stuff with/on the boat between races.

We have inadvertently taken pictures that shouldn't be published…

Mark


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

colemj said:


> There is a down side to this style of boat and racing that isn't immediately apparent until you see it. The crew have no head on board, and no place to put the boat out of the way to go overboard. The result is some very interesting/disturbing/humorous (depending on one's personal sense of propriety) views for the spectators, since the spectator area is the only place to get out of the course to do stuff with/on the boat between races.
> 
> We have inadvertently taken pictures that shouldn't be published&#8230;
> 
> Mark


Not a new problem. In 1992 AC, I was aboard Kanza for a race in San Diego. Was advised to go easy on the coffee at breakfast.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I saw something else interesting yesterday whose purpose was less obvious than that above. Britain stopped their boat right beside us and the chase boat came along side it. This is very common before and between races, as they have technicians check things, bring drinks and powerbars aboard, exchange crew members if wanted, etc. The chase boat had a grinder mounted on its stern. Shortly before they split, Ainslie jumped onto the chase boat and started grinding on the grinder for a few minutes. 

I don't know why or what? Is it possible that the chase boat connects to the hydraulics of the AC50 and can power up the storage pressure on it? Or maybe it is to warm up muscles before getting back into things? Or maybe Ainslie was just showing the crew that he could grind too if he wanted?

Have never noticed this before or on others, but I will pay more attention to it and see if I can figure it out, or if it is also the same for other boats.

BTW, we were walking the dogs in the park yesterday morning and met Ben Ainslie's wife and kid, as well as one of the BAR grinder's wife and kids. The kids played with the dogs for 1/2hr while we talked with the adults.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Saw a trawler in the spectator fleet named "100% VMG". LOL! Definitely had to be an ex-sailboat racer…

Mark


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Thanks for the wonderful updates Mark!


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## flyingriki (Sep 27, 2012)

Talk about close, scary racing!


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

The Kiwis just flipped their boat. What a series, the Brits break their mast and the Kiwis flip 
jon


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

They pitchpoled right in front of us! Exciting day, but the weather was bad. Wind was good, but rain wasn't. Tomorrow looking to be dreadful, and then we are back to light wind.

Everyone broke their boat today. NZ broke something in their wing before the races started, went back to shore and stuck a new wing on, and returned in time for their race. Then they broke that wing when they went over. Artemis had something break with their foil or the hydraulics or the control (don't know yet), and they almost flipped. Japan and Britain had bits and sheets of carbon flying of their boats.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

colemj said:


> This LV series comes with an additional prize besides getting to challenge Oracle for the cup: the winner of the LV earns a point going into the final series.
> 
> So if Oracle wins the LV, then the second place boat becomes the challenger, but Oracle gains the point. If Oracle doesn't win, they are still the defender in the finals, but start the finals a point behind.
> 
> Mark


Oops, I was wrong here. The point was only for winning the elimination round, not the series. Oracle won the elimination round, but now sit out the challenger series.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Our friend is the tactician on the J-class yacht "Svea", which will be competing in the classic AC race here. We spent yesterday morning getting a full detailed tour of the boat. It is a loooong walk from the stern to the bow - they should put a refreshment stand by the mast...

Not the boat of yore, though. Lithium batteries, 24 kilowatts of inverter power at 48V DC, two generators, gigantic winches that peel line faster than I've ever seen, a navigational and tactical electronics system that is the same used on the AC boats (the compass is military, cost $80k and they had to get permission from the government to obtain it, the GPS has 2cm accuracy, the wind instruments are completely proprietary and secret, etc), carbon sails, solid carbon rod rigging(!!!), and much more. 

All in a 1930's package.

Mark

Edit: it isn't really solid carbon rod rigging, but I don't know how to explain it well. The shrouds and stays are made up of bundles of linear carbon rods like extremely long pencil leads contained in a carbon sheath. The end fittings are compression fittings with cones remarkably similar to stayloc and the like. Only titanium.


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

colemj said:


> Everyone broke their boat today. NZ broke something in their wing before the races started, went back to shore and stuck a new wing on, and returned in time for their race. Then they broke that wing when they went over. Artemis had something break with their foil or the hydraulics or the control (don't know yet), and they almost flipped. Japan and Britain had bits and sheets of carbon flying of their boats.
> Mark


i was wondering what that stuff flapping in the wind might be. Now i know, sheets of carbon fibre. Is the stuff that fragile?
jon


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Most of it was just fairing cowlings and not really structural. However, they were interfering with the operation of the foils.

Best part of the day was seeing the crews wrapping things back together with rolls of duct tape.

Some things stay the same no matter which level one sails at...

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Very cool observation Mark. I bet we don't see that in the replays!


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## johnny buddha (Jan 12, 2016)

colemj said:


> Our friend is the tactician on the J-class yacht "Svea", which will be competing in the classic AC race here. We spent yesterday morning getting a full detailed tour of the boat. It is a loooong walk from the stern to the bow - they should put a refreshment stand by the mast...
> 
> Not the boat of yore, though. Lithium batteries, 24 kilowatts of inverter power at 48V DC, two generators, gigantic winches that peel line faster than I've ever seen, a navigational and tactical electronics system that is the same used on the AC boats (the compass is military, cost $80k and they had to get permission from the government to obtain it, the GPS has 2cm accuracy, the wind instruments are completely proprietary and secret, etc), carbon sails, solid carbon rod rigging(!!!), and much more.
> 
> ...


Wow.

I'm hoping to see some of the J-Class regatta - can't find info on the AC35 website that says whether/where that will be.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

https://www.americascup.com/en/ac35-jclass.html

The course is in the bay just outside of St. George's. Don't know if it will be televised.

For those yearning for the old ways, yes, these all arrived in Bermuda on their own bottoms.

Mark


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Some thoughts...

Obviously not seeing this thread until now kind of indicates how excited I am/was about the races

Mark added a lot of insight

One of the problems, as a casual spectator... It's like a lot of sports... hockey comes to mind.. where the playoffs go on and on.. so you lose a little interest until the finals are already started

I looked at the app and nothing but bad reviews

There is an America's Cup channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/AmericasCup/videos).. but it is so brief, I get more out of one of Marks posts than two minutes from the channel..

I don't get the feeling this will ever become NASCAR, the race has probably always been directed at a certain demographic... After the last AC in San Fran they had the drama to build on.... I don't feel that now

I do think it is an interesting race


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The iPad app seems to be working fine for us here, and we always have the live and virtual eye views on while watching the race. The rest of the stuff on the app like video and news are somewhat interesting.

They seem to update the app frequently, and each version seems to be better.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The weather and boat action yesterday was unusual and interesting, but the local broadcast announcing took the cake. I mentioned before that there are announcers at the AC village providing commentary for the fans there, and this is also broadcasted over VHF, as well as carried on the local FM station. In general, this commentary has been much better than the official broadcast going out worldwide, because they bring in guest commentators each day - mostly engineers and technical people directly from the teams themselves. These people provide interesting insights and explanations.

Until yesterday.

I don't know who they had as a guest commentator yesterday. He definitely wasn't with any of the teams. He started the broadcast talking about how many dark and stormy's (a local rum/ginger beer drink) he had already had, and kept calling for refills during the broadcast. The Gosling's booth next to the broadcasting booth was only too happy to oblige him. Needless to say, he was completely hammered, and was of the type who becomes very excited and loud when hammered. Think freshman at first frat party&#8230;

The regular announcer was a bit peeved and tried in vain to make the broadcast follow some sense of propriety. It wasn't to be.

Some of my favorite exchanges:

_Drunk Guy (DG):_ Wooohooo! Lookit em go!!!! USA is just burning down the course!!! Woooo!
_Sober Announcer (SA):_ That is New Zealand. The US team is not racing this series.

_DG:_ It's so windy here that the racers called for a 3-leg course
_SA:_ The race committee decides the course, and the length is 9 legs, not 3.

(a bit of rain was moving in)
_DG:_ It's getting "Dark and Stormy" here folks! Get it? "Dark and Stormy!!!!". Someone bring me a dark and stormy!! Hey, do you know how many of these I've had today? Where's the guy who brings the dark and stormy's?
(Gosling booth person brings him a dark and stormy).
_DG:_ Woohoo! I love these things!
_SA:_ It wasn't such a good idea to be near the Gosling's booth

(this one's my favorite)
_DG:_ My underwear is wet&#8230;
_SA:_ Really. That's just too much information.

(as NZ was crossing the finish line)
_DG:_ Give it up for the Red, White and Blue folks!!!!
_SA:_ Again, that is New Zealand, not the USA.

The drunk guy had us in stitches. I bet he won't be invited back.

Mark


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

colemj said:


> The weather and boat action yesterday was unusual and interesting, but the local broadcast announcing took the cake. I mentioned before that there are announcers at the AC village providing commentary for the fans there, and this is also broadcasted over VHF, as well as carried on the local FM station. In general, this commentary has been much better than the official broadcast going out worldwide, because they bring in guest commentators each day - mostly engineers and technical people directly from the teams themselves. These people provide interesting insights and explanations.
> 
> Until yesterday.
> 
> ...


Oh, I so wish I could have heard that....

So, was Groupama the only boat eliminated? Someone made an NHL analogy before, and I think that is on target. As someone once said while complaining that so many NHL teams make the playoffs and they go on forever: "the NHL season is 82 games long, just to eliminate Buffalo from the playoffs". That all being said, the Stanley Cup playoffs have been particularly exciting this year...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Love the updates. Thanks, Mark. 

I've watched video recaps on the app, which have been fine, but I've yet to watch a Live race. It seems to want a few bucks for each live event, which I may do when the AC itself begins. 

For those finding it too long, the AC hasn't technically begun yet. These are the races that determine the challenger. Oracle USA, being the defender, is a lock. 

When the AC begins, with the final two boats on June 17, 18, 24, 25 and 26 (unless a boat mathematically wins earlier) I'm sure I will try to watch Live. For now, I'm fine with recaps afterward. Although, I really wish I was there. I also recall being able to watch on the NBC app for free last time, but believe I needed to include info on my cable subscription to do so. I need to work this out soon.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

The Races are on NBC Sports online live


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Yes, Groupama was the only one eliminated in the round robin series. The semi-finals will eliminate two more, and the finals will pick the challenger.

Like mentioned above, the AC series hasn't started yet. This is technically the Louis Vitton Cup.

It is much shorter than the NHL/NBA/MLB/etc playoffs and series!

Mark


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Wasn't suggesting the app was good or bad, only hinting since the reviews were so bad

I get that it is currently the Louis Vuitton... a lower bracket if you will.. not the America's Cup... but for me it is the playoffs.. just like in the playoffs in most sports, each lower bracket plays for a different cup or trophy, but in the end, you race the Louis Vuitton (or for the AL championships) to get to the show.

Love the Drunk Guy commentary, they should do that at all sports.

------
Neither here nor there, for lack of something to talk to my 76-year-old mom, I will ask her about NASCAR. She loves the sport, but she doesn't know how the points work, or the chase, often doesn't know who is in first place and when the race is on, she barely knows who is winning. Though she doesn't drink, her commentary would be a bit similar.

My question to her and to America's Cup (unless the sports only care about their demographics and not attracting more people), how are they going to attract a bigger fan base if most people don't understand what is going on.

No doubt people with an affinity for the sport (or crashes in NASCAR's case) will always love it.








edit, I noticed the official race name is "Louis Vuitton America's Cup Challenger Playoffs Semi-finals"


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Aside from the fact that these "boats" race in and over water and have sails... there is nothing I can relate to or find of practical use. The AC wander so far away from "traditional sailing" for some unknown reason... but they have turn off not on many sailors. None of these sorts of boats will be seen anywhere except in this insanely expensive campaigns where the marketing is through the roof...


A few more years on this tack and the AC will be done.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

I never get the argument of: "I can't relate" argument when it comes to liking or disliking a sporting event...

I am not sure what professional sport that many spectators can really relate.... If you barely break 100 on a round of golf.. can you really relate to the man or woman who is under par every day?

Who related to Ted Turner (or Ted Hood) racing the Courageous? When it comes to Turner, I am not a milionaire, I have never been involved with Jane Fonda.

For one, regardless of what boat is on the water, how many really can afford a AC boat?

And, most people here are cruisers... I don't think there are many AC boats that would be much of cruisers.

And those who want to relate to a sport... do they follow the sport on their level? do that many people that can't relate to AC, follow Everglades Challenge ( 
Everglades Challenge: An Insane Small-Boat Race Down Florida - Sail Magazine ) because they can relate....

I am asking this as a serious question because most of the sports I follow, I love it because of the amazing (unrelatable) athletes -- who not only have physical ability but so many things I do not.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

titustiger27 said:


> I never get the argument of: "I can't relate" argument when it comes to liking or disliking a sporting event...
> 
> I am not sure what professional sport that many spectators can really relate.... If you barely break 100 on a round of golf.. can you really relate to the man or woman who is under par every day?
> 
> ...


l don't "follow" professional or spectator sports. I stopped that a very long time ago... perhaps when I was in college and too busy with my studies to play or watch as I did in high school. Once you stop following a sport, and all the personalities fade and if you happen to watch a game or match on TV it becomes a sort of generic experience... isolated with little context.

I was never a fan of any sport I didn't play myself... so something like tennis which I did play a bit became of minor interest to me. Hockey I never played and don't find appealing. Horse racing is not a sport to me... nor is boxing. The last sporting even I attended was in perhaps 98 or 99 when a colleague who was an avid Yankee fan invited me because it had a pair of tix to practically the who season and found friends to go with him. It was OK... I didn't even know a single player.

I consider watching spectator sports a waste of time... Yet seeing the new cats fly at such speeds is pretty remarkable. When I want to see athleticism.. I attend ballet. Dancers are athletes and the performances are beautiful as well. I can do without the roaring crowds and the drunk fans.

I realize I am rather unique in my views on sports. Fine to do on whatever amateur level you...be a fan if you like... it makes for ice breaking for a conversation... and is safer than politics.

AC is not my cuppa... and I believe many sailors have lost interest in it as well.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Aside from the fact that these "boats" race in and over water and have sails... there is nothing I can relate to or find of practical use.........
> 
> A few more years on this tack and the AC will be done.


There is an obvious split in the sailing community over this. My sense is the side that has enjoyed these newer boats, faster races and better technology for broadcasting them has the edge over those that reject them. I got hooked at the last race, but am watching for the tactics and sportsmanship, not to try to relate to my form of sailing.

I always enjoy the Olympics, which are filled with sports I don't play at all.

I would acknowledge that without a good audience, the heavy commercialization of the races might decline, but this isn't an organized league sport. It's always been a collection of uber-wealthy elite members of international yacht clubs, racing for bragging rights. That's not going to end. In fact, I think many in those circle might like to see the commercialization decline, as the average billionaire can't afford to compete without serious sponsorship now.

In Ted Turner's day, no one on the boat was paid. Now, I believe the entire crew are paid staff, year round.



titustiger27 said:


> .......I get that it is currently the Louis Vuitton... a lower bracket if you will.. not the America's Cup... but for me it is the playoffs.. just like in the playoffs in most sports, each lower bracket plays for a different cup or trophy, but in the end, you race the Louis Vuitton (or for the AL championships) to get to the show.




A good analogy to the LV Cup would be the pennant races in baseball. Less than avid fans don't tune in until the World Series itself.



> My question to her and to America's Cup (unless the sports only care about their demographics and not attracting more people), how are they going to attract a bigger fan base if most people don't understand what is going on.


This is a very good point and I'm not aware of a simple document explanation on how the points will work. I hope one exists. These rules can change from one Cup race to the next. Although, I believe the original Deed of Gift declares a default format, if another can not be agreed upon.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> A few more years on this tack and the AC will be done.


That is certainly the opposite of how things are proceeding now. The average age of professional sailors has plummeted, and the number of them has risen compared to the past.

I was just reading an article about the relative ages of the sailors in the past two AC series vs. the previous.

Another article talked about the youth series (the foiling 45's) program being designed to provide a bridge into this level of the sport and how successful that has been. For example, the NZ helmsman Peter Burling won the youth series last time. About 30% of those kids were pulled up into this AC series. It also described the long list of sailors trying to get into the youth program, and how there are more youths getting into sail racing just to aim for this level.

Using the term "youths" makes me feel old. GET OFF MY LAWN!

I think Ellison saved the sport, not initiated its demise. So far, the data supports this.

Mark


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

I once read or heard a story about how people enjoy sports.. it was focused on if you had played the sport, you kind of understand what it is like to catch a pass with one hand. And thus more likely to enjoy it.

Much along these lines, I never really paid much attention to America's Cup until I owned a sailboat.

But even then, I never or never will understand what it is like to be sailing a state of art sailboat that are way beyond my means, but I enjoy the AC way more right now, because of the different coverage (regardless of the boats), then I did when ABC news gave the race two minutes to announce who won and a couple shots of the victory celebration.

We live in different times.. for all sports.. for just about anything.... though I would guess the ABC network still doesn't spend much time on the AC, or ballet which I like a lot myself... but I go to many more baseball games than Ballet and I sail much more than I dance


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Found a reasonable big picture recap.

The 2017 America's Cup explained - what's it all about and how to watch - Classic Boat Magazine


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

titustiger27 said:


> My question to her and to America's Cup (unless the sports only care about their demographics and not attracting more people), how are they going to attract a bigger fan base if most people don't understand what is going on.


Every sport has that challenge. I bet few in Tennessee understood what was going on in hockey before the NHL moved a franchise there.

The rules haven't changed in sail racing from the old days of slowpoke boats drifting around miles offshore - and nobody fretted about fan base then.

In the old days, there wasn't a related 2-year world series that moved from city to city around the world generating excitement for the culminating AC event.

Today, the graphic overlays and repetitive quickness of the race do more than ever to help people get up to speed. The announcing here has been fantastic (drunk guy excluded) in explaining basic things like laylines, starting tactics and splitting vs. covering - not to mention more esoteric things like how foils work and are controlled. I don't know about the broadcast going worldwide.

The technical aspect of this type of racing helps bring in a broader audience. Nobody from outside the sport really cared much about the technical aspects of different shaped bow knuckles or barely perceptible changes in keel shape. But the interest in wings and foils and their control systems is very large outside the normal boundary of the sport, and are drawing in new audiences. I know people who don't really know what is going on in the racing tactics and never followed the sport, but who have dived deep into the aerohydrodynamics and technical aspects.

Not to mention that the sport is now drawing athletes from other professional sports! Look at the crew resumes. You will find professional rowers, canoeists, swimmers, ironmen, and cyclists on the teams.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> That is certainly the opposite of how things are proceeding now. The average age of professional sailors has plummeted, and the number of them has risen compared to the past.
> 
> I was just reading an article about the relative ages of the sailors in the past two AC series vs. the previous.
> 
> ...


Sailing is not a sport to me... that's the difference between me and others who race and compete and watch AC.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Sailing is not a sport to me......


I'm sure we're going to split hairs here, but I'm curious what it is to you.

Technically, the definition of sport requires a competition, but I think activities that require skill and physical participation are inadequately defined by hobby. Golf is a sport, whether you compete with anyone or not. (I hate golf)


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

The plain fact is that the AC could lose every sailor as a fan, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference in its long-term viability. Although we are the natural fan base, there are so few of us that we aren't even a drop in the bucket of the total sports and event marketplace.

The AC may have aspirations to be like NASCAR or Formula 1, but it's really more like the Triple Crown. Those are not really sports like the NFL; they are three "EVENTS". Ain't nobody (or almost nobody) there who really cares about horse racing; they are there because it's an EVENT, a big excuse for a party. I think the best outcome for the AC series is to create a series of Events that draw people in. It might even make some sailors out of a few fans. But I don't think there is much chance of duplicating NASCAR or F1.

Based on what I saw of the coverage in San Francisco last time, most people were there for the "experience". The race village had so much stuff to do and see, you could get your money's worth without even looking at the racing. The racing was actually fabulous, but that was more of a bonus than anything. I'd be very interested to know from our intrepid, on-the-scene reporter Mark what he thinks of the crowds in Bermuda. Did they come primarily to see the racing? Or did they come because it is a place to see and be seen? Some combination?

For me, I absolutely love the new format, the new boats, and the whole thing. The AC has always been a technology-based competition, and I like that this Defender has embraced that. On the other hand, I would have no problem if the next winner wanted to go back to IACC boats, or even 12's or J's. Just so long as they understand that no one but a small group of sailors would be interested in the races.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> Sailing is not a sport to me... that's the difference between me and others who race and compete and watch AC.


Then I fail to see your points, nor how you came to the conclusion that the AC will be done in a few more years if they continue in this manner.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

mstern said:


> The plain fact is that the AC could lose every sailor as a fan, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference in its long-term viability. Although we are the natural fan base, there are so few of us that we aren't even a drop in the bucket of the total sports and event marketplace.
> 
> The AC may have aspirations to be like NASCAR or Formula 1, but it's really more like the Triple Crown. Those are not really sports like the NFL; they are three "EVENTS". Ain't nobody (or almost nobody) there who really cares about horse racing; they are there because it's an EVENT, a big excuse for a party. I think the best outcome for the AC series is to create a series of Events that draw people in. It might even make some sailors out of a few fans. But I don't think there is much chance of duplicating NASCAR or F1.
> 
> ...


They already have made this a series of events. The AC world series goes on for two years before the finals, and that travels all over the world bringing stadium sailing to many. Then those boats are handed over to young sailors for competition events, while the others move into the LV and AC.

The crowds here are very diverse. The organizers have done a great job of making the event available at low cost to the local population, and on weekends in particular they make up 50% of both the land and water spectators. It seems both an event and race to them, as they watch the race intently, then go anchor together and party.

The non locals are very diverse - lots of Brits, Swedes, NZ and surprisingly many Japanese. There were a lot of French during the first round. Most seem to be keen on the sport and not here for the event.

The superyacht crowd appears to be here entirely for an event - not sure they even know racing is occurring.

If the races go backwards from here, the group of sailors interested in it will be even smaller than you suspect. Nobody under 20 is interested in slow monohulls at all. Nobody. Most have never seen a slow mono AC event, and many weren't even born for the last one. These kids will never accept an apparent wind aft of their beam and view spinnakers with derision. There are a lot of young kids here, and they are eating this up. The local yacht club kids sail foiling moths (I've never seen these before, but they are zipping around here - woooweee!).

Anyone you might get a negative opinion from about the direction and future of sailboat racing is an old man yelling "get off my grass".

This tide has turned.

Mark


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

colemj said:


> Every sport has that challenge. I bet few in Tennessee understood what was going on in hockey before the NHL moved a franchise there.
> 
> The rules haven't changed in sail racing from the old days of slowpoke boats drifting around miles offshore - and nobody fretted about fan base then.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this, same thing kind of happened with bobsledding with Football players, not to mention there were some NASCAR people involved with bobsledding at some point as well.

I wonder where the trickle down will come... Like a lot of sailboats now have winged keels I wonder if cruising cats will end up with some AC technology.

Not just the overlays, but I enjoyed in the last AC when there were discussions of the tactics and then they talk about the results.. like one boat going to the outside of the course, versus down the middle.

One can't lose the fact that having the ability to watch from land has to be a plus.. not just int he viewing but the Grolsch tent as well :2 boat:


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm sure we're going to split hairs here, but I'm curious what it is to you.
> 
> Technically, the definition of sport requires a competition, but I think activities that require skill and physical participation are inadequately defined by hobby. Golf is a sport, whether you compete with anyone or not. (I hate golf)


Maybe not for everyone, but I think for most, when I am on the water and there is another sailboat about the size of mine, it is a race, even if they or I don't know it ..

In some ways, that 'competition' gives me some valuable feedback on my sail trim (not always good).


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm sure we're going to split hairs here, but I'm curious what it is to you.
> 
> Technically, the definition of sport requires a competition, but I think activities that require skill and physical participation are inadequately defined by hobby. Golf is a sport, whether you compete with anyone or not. (I hate golf)


Athletics... competition... rules...

Sailing for ME is none of this. Sure it may be for others... as you can make two or more boats race... you have competition and rules.

Sailing involves skills... everything does... and intelligence... and it's a place for me to be closer to nature... to get some place with my own wits... so that I can experience them. It's a vacation home and a learning lab... It's not a sport to me.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SanderO said:


> l don't "follow" professional or spectator sports.


I don't think you are the AC's target market. It doesn't sound like you'd watch the old-fashioned or the new version.

Like you I am not into sports and rarely watch an event/match/game/bout. I will go to a baseball game because it's fun to eat junk food in the sun.

But I have been watching a bit of these new foiling cats. It's more like watching a rocket launch than a sailboat! They're pretty amazing. I'm a fan.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

@colemj

I explained why I think that many people who sail have no interest in the AC... especially what it has evolved into. Maybe it attracts non sailors? I don't know and I don't care...

I expressed my opinion and let's leave it at that.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Athletics... competition... rules...
> 
> Sailing for ME is none of this. Sure it may be for others... as you can make two or more boats race... you have competition and rules.
> 
> Sailing involves skills... everything does... and intelligence... and it's a place for me to be closer to nature... to get some place with my own wits... so that I can experience them. It's a vacation home and a learning lab... It's not a sport to me.


Not arguing trying to talk you out of your point of view. I was just interested in why you felt this way.

Personally, I think sailing does require a degree of athleticism, with balance, situational awareness and finesse, such as when tacking. No real competition outside a race, but in layman's terms, many activities, such as golf, are consider sports even without competition. There are all sorts of rules on the water, even just cruising. Still, thanks for your point of view.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Not arguing trying to talk you out of your point of view. I was just interested in why you felt this way.
> 
> Personally, I think sailing does require a degree of athleticism, with balance, situational awareness and finesse, such as when tacking. No real competition outside a race, but in layman's terms, many activities, such as golf, are consider sports even without competition. There are all sorts of rules on the water, even just cruising. Still, thanks for your point of view.


I am not going to argue this... situational awareness is not unique to sport... it's something that pedestrians require... drivers do. Balance? Well sure some people have better balance... ballet dancers far exceed your typical athletes and sailors as far as balance and body control and awareness.

This is not a debate... sailing to me is not a sport for ME... that's it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I am not going to argue this........


But then you followed this point with your arguments?

You're welcome to the last word on it, but I'm still not sure what it is to you, if not a sport. A hobby maybe?


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Ballet
Professional wrestling
Hotdog eating
Watching the sun set

Not sports to me

Sailing is... if you are keeping score. (by that I mean a play on words in sports and scoring)


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> But then you followed this point with your arguments?
> 
> You're welcome to the last word on it, but I'm still not sure what it is to you, if not a sport. A hobby maybe?


I would have to agree with Sander. Earlier in my life I did a lot of competitive sailing when the "sport" definition was apparent. Most of it done in Annapolis. It really refined my sail trim knowledge and also tactical knowledge.

Wind and weather I learned in college from my roommates ( both PSU meteorologists)

In the last 10 years, sailing for me is more of what Sander speaks about. If it's not a sport does mean it degrades to a hobby. I have the same passion for sailing I always have. Sailing fulfills my intellectual mathematical needs, it also is a place my wife and I share together. It is therapy for my brain no matter how tempestuous the weather.

I don't mind sailing in 6 knots of wind .....or in 40

Some of my best friends I have made sailing.

Seeing cities, towns from the water like the immigrants or explorers saw the US is because of my sailing. 
I will never forget the first time I saw the Statue of Liberty appear from the water after we rounded Sandy Hook despite the fact I had visited many times. Being on the Chesapeake where out country was really first major colonized and seeing the towns and cities and ports the English used is very interesting to me. Sailing like they did makes it all the more interesting. The next two weeks will be around Yorktown and James town where the first settlement was, and the British surrendered, and Hampton Roads where the first ironclads fought changing the history of naval warfare. ( can you tell one of my masters is in History and Foreign Affairs. ) all this seen from the eyes of a sailboat.

Sailing is a way for me to touch nature. As a participTing organizer of the first Earth Day in Philadelphia being in nature and viewing it from a quiet moving sailboat always makes me appreciate and u serstand my environment. Seeing beautiful birds , having a pod of dolphins swim alongside the boat for 6 hours up the Jersey coast, seeing dead fish suffocated by beer six pack holders, or just plain rubbish dumped in the water is eye opening.

Sailing is my therapy. Helps settle my psyche. I always sleep better at anchor when I have sailed to a beautiful spot.

None of those things have me consider the competitive sport sailing can be. That type of sailing where it is a sport is just one facet of the whole jewel. Just because you don't race or are not competitive doesn't relegate it to a hobby.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> But then you followed this point with your arguments?
> 
> You're welcome to the last word on it, but I'm still not sure what it is to you, if not a sport. A hobby maybe?


A lifestyle???? How'se dat?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> I would have to agree with Sander. Earlier in my life I did a lot of competitive sailing when the "sport" definition was apparent. Most of it done in Annapolis. It really refined my sail trim knowledge and also tactical knowledge.
> 
> Wind and weather I learned in college from my roommates ( both PSU meteorologists)
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head... beautifully articulated. Thank you!


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Did we do a.....throwing-ribs-on-the-grill...to/vs...a satellite-televised international BBQ competition thing?
Passions run strong like currents.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

chef2sail said:


> I have the same passion for sailing I always have. Sailing fulfills my intellectual mathematical needs, it also is a place my wife and I share together. It is therapy for my brain no matter how tempestuous the weather.


Cool post. I love the math of sailing. Love it. I get home from a sail and break out my records from the days/weeks sail, whether it's my log book written in ink or GPS data and analyze everything I can think of to analyze.

For me sailing can be a sport or not, depending on my mood. I don't need an human opponent to make it a sport, the opponent can be nature herself.

On the other hand, it doesn't have to be a sport, it can be a hobby, a distraction or just a way to relax.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

chef2sail said:


> \\ snip //
> 
> None of those things have me consider the competitive sport sailing can be. That type of sailing where it is a sport is just one facet of the whole jewel. Just because you don't race or are not competitive doesn't relegate it to a hobby.


Nothing about me at the tiller would make anyone think of the word 'competitive'

Same would be true, if you saw me hit a ball into the water hazard.... three times... with a five iron

or if you watched me batting in unlimited-arch softball swinging a whole second too soon, you would think 'circus,' more than you would think competitive.

But back to the America's Cup.. I think it has always been competitive, BUT when they went to Cats, I was one of those in the 'ruin the sport' camp, but once you watch the Cats, you can't take 'competitive' out of the conversation.

Even if one wants to say it isn't a sport, it certainly is competitive sailing, I would personally say it is also a sport.
--
I wear an activity bracelet. When I am in my Designer's Choice 15, I can only move about four feet in any direction, and when I am done sailing a couple hours, the bracelet says I have taken 3,000 steps and I am tired.... so no simple walk in the woods.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

titustiger27 said:


> ....
> But back to the America's Cup.. I think it has always been competitive, BUT when they went to Cats, I was one of those in the 'ruin the sport' camp, but once you watch the Cats, you can't take 'competitive' out of the conversation.......


That's a good post, similar to how I feel.
Now...it's just different....
But, I do think we lose original heart-felt essence from where we came by this 'change/evolution'.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> A lifestyle???? How'se dat?


That works.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

RegisteredUser said:


> That's a good post, similar to how I feel.
> Now...it's just different....
> But, I do think we lose original heart-felt essence from where we came by this 'change/evolution'.


You realize that this same sentiment was voiced when the 12M's started using fin keels? And also when they first started making them from fiberglass? In fact, both technological improvements were taken to court and argued in terms of tradition and adherence to the essence of the sport.

I imagine it was also the sentiment when they stopped using wood, manila rope, schooner rigs, etc.

One must keep in mind that the America's Cup has ALWAYS been a technology war between extremely rich people building and racing boats far removed from those of the common cruising man. There is nothing happening today that is different from the past. Back in the 1930's, the J-class boats were as technologically different from the common man boats as the AC50's are today.

There has never been "traditional" AC boats and racing. Never. Sometimes, old designs become close to those of common man, but that rapidly changes - and we're off again.

I don't think driving a car is a sport, but I recognize NASCAR and F1 as sports. And don't think that their technological advancement beyond our Ford Taurus means the impending end of those sports.

I miss the old traditional ways of lawyers battling it out in the courts for the Cup, and not by athletes in silly boats on water...

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Oracle is allowed equal time on the water and course for practicing while the challenger series are ongoing. They are out every morning and evening by themselves practicing maneuvers, etc.

This morning, they are out with Japan having match races.

Interesting. Japan might not be going home after all…

Mark


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

If you can hold a drink while you're doing it, it's not a sport.

Bowling: Not a sport

Darts: Not a sport

Sailing the way I do it: Not a sport

Sailing the way the AC does it: Definitely a sport


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Personally, I prefer to pass other sailboats, with a drink in one hand, a sandwich in the other and steering with my foot. If you can't hold a drink, you're cheating.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Sailboat racing of any kind is a sport. Hey, it's in the Olympics.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The first race today had everything a traditionalist wants - tacking duals, luffs, creative sail handling, downwind tactics - all at 5-8kts!

Patiently waiting now for the wind to pick up. It was 15-20 moments before the first race started, but simply dropped to nothing.

Yesterday, Oracle was out practicing starts against Japan. Looks like Japan and Barker are going to be a secret weapon.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

JimsCAL said:


> Sailboat racing of any kind is a sport. Hey, it's in the Olympics.


So is synchronized swimming. Kinda weakens your argument... :laugh

Mark


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Late to this but:

Sailboat racing has got to be a sport.

Jogging is not a sport, but a running race is.

If you're sailing but not racing, OK, maybe 'sport' isn't the right term. But its definitely an 'activity'. (except perhaps if you've got that Oyster 55 with pushbutton sail trim - drink in hand  )

I was initially an 'new AC' Naysayer. However, I think with the technology of todays boats, and especially the technology of today's coverage with aerial views, the superimposed grid lines and laylines and other graphics brings understandability to the sport that has eluded any nonsailor trying to watch the old 12M series'.

I know I couldn't stop watching last time.


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

colemj said:


> So is synchronized swimming. Kinda weakens your argument... :laugh
> 
> Mark


Synchronized swimming - definitely difficult to do with a drink in your hand.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

FreeAgent said:


> Synchronized swimming - definitely difficult to do with a drink in your hand.


But, if you could, you would be considered more skilled than the rest. Just like sailing.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Minnesail said:


> If you can hold a drink while you're doing it, it's not a sport.
> 
> Bowling: Not a sport
> 
> ...


Not to get too far off tangent

Why don't you think Bowling is a sport? do you feel the same about curling and golf?

I know some of this is personal, like some think chess is a sport and others think football is a concussion experiment


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Minnesail said:


> If you can hold a drink while you're doing it, it's not a sport.
> 
> Bowling: Not a sport
> 
> ...


For many the drinking is the sport and the boat is just a place to do it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

overbored said:


> For many the drinking is the sport and the boat is just a place to do it.


Several non-boating friends have made this exact point. 

It's not really true, I don't know anyone who drinks while underway, with the possible exception of a single beer with a meal on a calm day. The parties at the destinations are epic.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

titustiger27 said:


> Not to get too far off tangent
> 
> Why don't you think Bowling is a sport?


"You're out of your element, Donny!"



titustiger27 said:


> Do you feel the same about curling and golf?


I did curl once and since you can't hold a drink while doing it I think it qualifies as a sport. Drinking seemed to be mandatory afterwards.

I guess golf is a sport, but I'm inclined to agree with my father-in-law who calls it "pasture pool for cretins."


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## AJC506 (Nov 3, 2016)

titustiger27 said:


> Not to get too far off tangent
> 
> Why don't you think Bowling is a sport? do you feel the same about curling and golf?
> 
> I know some of this is personal, like some think chess is a sport and others think football is a concussion experiment


If you think you can curl and hold a drink in one hand, you are either the world's most stable curler, or you're going to ruin the pebble of the ice.
Definitely a sport.


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

Minnewaska said:


> It's not really true, I don't know anyone who drinks while underway, with the possible exception of a single beer with a meal on a calm day. The parties at the destinations are epic.


Illegal here in Ontario, Canada to drink while sailing. However, when we used to attend regattas, we had discussed getting a plaque like this made up to mount on the bulkhead:


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

FreeAgent said:


> Illegal here in Ontario, Canada to drink while sailing. However, when we used to attend regattas, we had discussed getting a plaque like this made up to mount on the bulkhead:


In the US, I believe it's also illegal for the Captain to drink, while underway, but I'm not sure about the passengers. For some, those roles simply rotate between sips.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Congrats to the Kiwis. A real trouncing. Ellison will probably sue them. 

Since Bermuda was neutral territory for all, I wonder if it will be used again next round. There is talk that the Kiwi's will call for at least a majority of the crew be citizens of the country the boat represents in the next round. I've read they may even return to monohulls. The argument being that non-sailing spectators will cheer for their country more than care about the boat.

I think a majority of the boat being citizens makes sense. The sailors themselves disagree, because its a paying professional job and the second best Kiwi goes unemployed, if you must be a citizen of the boat's country. 

If they return to mono's, they might as well give up on the commercialization of the event. Although, they just might. This Cup event was not originated to be on wide world of sports. 

I wonder if the NYYC will ever make a comeback or if Ellison has a stranglehold on team USA.

Mark, were you there till the end?


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Cyclist and a better dagger board foil = more hydraulic pressure and more flying VMG. 

Yea, and I'll admit it, fell asleep in front of the TV quite a few times, old age, maybe? Longing to watch a mark rounding spinnaker set and a few more tacking duels? Yea, maybe. Didn't need coffee when the races were close watching a dip or room at mark flying at 30+ kts, but didn't happen enough IMHO. 

I'm working on a Kiwi accent so my friends will believe I know how to sail .


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I can't believe that they would go back to monohulls at this point; IMHO, I think that would be a big mistake. The foiling cat sailing is so exciting, telegenic and accessible that going back to monos (any mono) would seem like watching paint dry in comparison. And contrary to what some thought, I think we saw classic match racing tactics in these races, albeit at 35 knots. I'll likely never be on a foiling cat or sail a fixed wing boat, but damn, I do like watching!

I recently saw in interview with Dennis Conner on Youtube, where he was trying desparately not to bad mouth the current format and sailors; he kept saying "it's different, not better or worse", but then went on to clearly lament the new reliance on electronics that tell the sailors when to shoot for the line, when to tack, etc. Dennis obviously thinks that the new guys are too reliant on the gadgets and don't have the skills that his generation had. I don't know what the electronics look like on one of the foiling cats, but maybe they need more help in judging distances and timing than Dennis did, if for no other reason than safety. At best, Dennis was hitting 8 or 9 knots and had a much greater margin for error than Jimmy Spithill does at 25 or 30 knots.

Congrats to the Kiwis. That's a country that takes its sailing seriously. Can't wait to see what the next edition of the Cup will look like. NBCSN just replayed a sailing biopic of Ted Turner's win of the Cup in Courageous back in '77. I had forgotten how staid and stodgy those NYYC-run events were. Although I really disliked all of the litigation between the Alhinghi group and Larry Ellison, it did drag the Cup into the modern world. Let's hope that Ellison is a gracious loser (or at least not a litigious one) and accepts that he lost at his own game and lets NZL have its say now.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

I concur Good Job New Zealand...

While Spithill had little room for error, I think the Kiwi boat was so much faster... even a perfect race by the US might not have been enough

Maybe what they should do an avatar race


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Still here to the end. Will be here another week before heading North to Nova Scotia.

I'm glad we got here early enough to see the entire Loius Vitton series, which was fantastic. The AC finals was a complete waste - just a drag race win by a much faster and better sailed boat. About half way through the NZ/SWE LV final, NZ's boat got a turbo drive. They did something that made that boat much faster about then.

Time will tell what NZ will do for the next cup challenge. I hope they keep it a stadium event, and that pretty much means fast foiling boats if they want people to stay awake. There is also the issue of all of the lower-level sailing events, youth training, and glide path to the AC that Ellison put in place. It would be a shame if this was jettisoned. Ellison did his best, poured a lot of time and money into bringing the event into today's world, and changed the sport for the better. Hopefully, NZ sees it this way and continues.

AFAIK, anyone can mount a challenge for the next cup. I don't see the NYYC as relevant in anyway to today's modern racing, and suspect they wouldn't know how to even approach something like this. The big question will be if Ellison even comes forward again and, if not, who will. I think Ellison put in place a very strong organization and it is probably self-propagating now.

I don't understand the citizenship concern. The crew isn't just picked up at the last minute - they join the team and work full-time in the country for years designing, building, testing and sailing the boat. The sailing world is a multinational one, and the AC has always been about the boat and not the nationality. The registered nationality of the boat was the original deed, not the crew's citizenship.

As for Conners lament, he was never faced with boundaries. Particularly boundaries lined with spectator boats right on them. While doing 40kts. When to tack/jibe inside the boundaries is still a judgement call on the boat, and shooting the line is done with a clock like always. Penalties in this type of race have to be done on the water using electronic means. There just isn't any ability to call a protest and decide it on shore. Thank god. Besides, these electronics didn't even exist in Conner's day. If they did, you can bet your life he would be on them like a dog on a bone.

In other words, Conners, and people like him, just don't understand what is going on today. Ignore them. Why the media keep bringing these types of people forth for comment is beyond me. 

We were also here for the J-Class regatta. While these are majestic boats for sure, they are dog slow and as interesting as watching paint dry. Yes, there were spinnaker peels and launches, and painfully slow tacking duals, and these boats were better raced by higher skilled crews than they ever were back in the 1930's - but they were SOOOOO boring to watch.

I've seen the polars for these boats: in 10kts of wind, their VMG upwind is [email protected]*T, downwind [email protected]*T, reaching 9kts. If you think it gets better at 20kts of wind, it doesn't - they gain 1kt and a couple of degrees. Below 10kts, they are about dead in the water. These are 130' boats with 7,600sqft of working sails, BTW.

And this is for the modern, newly built aluminum replicas with carbon rigs and sails and stripped for racing.

So. Boring.

Mark


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I love these cats and the whole idea of turning it into a fun, exciting sport, but not this way. It think it's absolutely disgusting that Oracle can be called the American entry, when few, if any, of those racing aboard are Americans. They all must be citizens of whatever country the boat represents, period!
If the last two America's Cup events are any indication, I see no point at all in flying any national flag on America's Cup boats. Why not just make them corporate boats and the cup winner can display the cup in the boardroom of their corporate headquarters?
While we're at it, why not change the name to, "The all about who money can buy, not national pride, cup."


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

colemj said:


> Still here to the end. Will be here another week before heading North to Nova Scotia.
> 
> I'm glad we got here early enough to see the entire Loius Vitton series, which was fantastic. The AC finals was a complete waste - just a drag race win by a much faster and better sailed boat. About half way through the NZ/SWE LV final, NZ's boat got a turbo drive. They did something that made that boat much faster about then.
> 
> ...


One thing I find kind of interesting is how they can have similar boats (well but for the cyclist) and they can make a tweak and change the race

Team Oracle did that four years ago when they made their comeback.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

capta said:


> I love these cats and the whole idea of turning it into a fun, exciting sport, but not this way. It think it's absolutely disgusting that Oracle can be called the American entry, when few, if any, of those racing aboard are Americans. They all must be citizens of whatever country the boat represents, period!
> If the last two America's Cup events are any indication, I see no point at all in flying any national flag on America's Cup boats. Why not just make them corporate boats and the cup winner can display the cup in the boardroom of their corporate headquarters?
> While we're at it, why not change the name to, "The all about who money can buy, not national pride, cup."


When they interviewed Spithill four years ago, after the comeback, and he made a point of saying (in around about way) it was good to beat NZ because he was Austrailia it was clear this was country against country, but the US wasn't one of them

As far as a 'corporate race' you couldn't make the word 'Oracle' any bigger. On the other hand, I am sure if the newspapers would take pictures of Sir Thomas Lipton's ship, he would have sailed with tea bags.

That is, probably always was kind of corporate


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

capta said:


> X....I see no point at all in flying any national flag on America's Cup boats. Why not just make them corporate boats and the cup winner can display the cup in the boardroom of their corporate headquarters?.....


I also think it's gone this way.
The patriotic spirit is lost.
The original intent is gone.

Really...I don't think people care so much now. 
It's just 'another sport event' and not special.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

With today's tech, we could have drone cats with one person onboard...who was a citizen of that country.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Reportedly, having foreign citizens crew for a given country's boat, dates back to the beginning of the race. Even the US did so. I think it was the exception, however. The deed calls for this to be a race between "countries". To be sure, that meant a yacht club within a country, but the national distinction is clear. I support the compromise that the majority of crew be citizens, which still allows for plenty of exceptions. 

I suppose my query on the NYYC was unclear. While it is technically the yacht club that is competing, it's really the member that pays the bills. Ellison shopped for his club, as I understand it. He flirted with NYYC for the 2013 race, although, everyone believed he was just posturing to get a better deal at home. I just wonder whether someone new comes along for the coming races that is a NYYC member, Ellison will be 76 by the next race. One has to admit there is some serious nostalgia with the NYYC. That doesn't mean the races need to go back to 12m.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I also read that overall attendance and viewership at the series is not sufficient to be sustainable. If true, they either need to bring more people to it, or scale back.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/...l?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The flag on the boat is the flag of registry, not nationality. The original America yacht had at least a British navigator and a pilot on it.

Keep in mind that being pedantic about the citizenship of the crew (or did you really mean nationality?) would keep many countries from ever entering the AC because of scarcity of enough talent at that level. Think Japan, China and the possibilities of others. It would become the same couple of rich guys over and over - just like what almost killed the event in the past.

Should the designers, engineers, composite guys, computer experts, etc also be of the same citizenship? Competing in the AC is equally as much about them as it is the 6 people on the boat.

This is no longer about fat amateurs on slow boats, it is a professional sport at the highest level.

The New York Yankees aren't all from New York, or even the US. Should that be changed? Don't confuse the AC with the Olympics.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

capta said:


> While we're at it, why not change the name to, "The all about who money can buy, not national pride, cup."


And how is this different from (pick whatever era/boat you think was pure)?

Mark


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

colemj said:


> ....
> Should the designers, engineers, composite guys, computer experts, etc also be of the same citizenship? Competing in the AC is equally as much about them as it is the 6 people on the boat.......


See, it's now gone.
Maybe evolved....changed.
It's been ruined and taken forward to something 'better'.


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## Freaky Teaky (Jun 27, 2017)

Hi Everyone,

My name is Marc I live in Michigan and plan on sailing my 30' catalina from Lake Erie to Bimini this fall and am looking for a crew to go if anyone is interested. 

Thanks,

Marc


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

colemj said:


> (( snip ))
> 
> This is no longer about fat amateurs on slow boats, it is a professional sport at the highest level.
> 
> The New York Yankees aren't all from New York, or even the US. Should that be changed? Don't confuse the AC with the Olympics.


I agree with you on this, but the yanhkers don't really represent NYS or NYC, they are just based there and for enough money (I think) it could be the Las Vegas yanhkers .. I guess you are saying the America's Cup is like that.. and it probably is, but my perception was the race is a national one, like the Olympics...

Could all the challengers be from the United States?

by the way, missed your commentary at the end of the challenge


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

colemj said:


> And how is this different from (pick whatever era/boat you think was pure)?
> Mark


So you feel that there aren't enough Americans who can sail, to crew up this or the last AC boats? 
Personally, I'd much rather have seen an American boat, crewed by Americans, representing America lose, than watch some international crew win on the American boat.
IMO it should be mandatory, and if they can't get an American crew together for the next challenge, then boo hoo. Add that to the lengthening list of failures of 21st century America.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Not sure if you guys have noticed, but to me it seems that it is a Corporation challenge....Oracle, Emirates and the list goes on..Hired guns on each boat...not a spectator sport in the flesh either...TV, Internet, flashy pics in the glossy sailing rags. Bermuda as a place to watch for the masses? Only on TV. Good to see it go back to Auckland.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

aeventyr60 said:


> Not sure if you guys have noticed, but to me it seems that it is a Corporation challenge....Oracle, Emirates and the list goes on..Hired guns on each boat...not a spectator sport in the flesh either...TV, Internet, flashy pics in the glossy sailing rags. Bermuda as a place to watch for the masses? Only on TV. Good to see it go back to Auckland.


I don't think many are questioning the corporate aspects of it, if the politicians can be owned by corporations, why not AC35?

I just read an article that since the US didn't hold the race in US territory, not a reason to think NZ might also go where the money is...

I don't know of many major sports that don't do all the same.. just about every stadium in the US has a corp name attached

*I hate* the corporate aspect of this sport and all others, but it is how things are, and frankly, you or I *not* buying an Oracle hat, probably won't change it.

-- one thing that might change under NZ, sounds like they want the race to have a more 'national' feel to it.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

colemj said:


> (( snip ))
> 
> Should the designers, engineers, composite guys, computer experts, etc also be of the same citizenship? Competing in the AC is equally as much about them as it is the 6 people on the boat.
> 
> ...


It probably is possible for the US, UK, Austraila and NZ to have the total package as frar as engineers, builders, etc. but few countries... and it would be so easy for people to get a citizenship in the four years between races

I have a tech question, do the cyclist on the NZ team, do they clip in? I couldn't tell and it seems it would be hard to run around the deck with pedal cleats..


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> The flag on the boat is the flag of registry, not nationality. The original America yacht had at least a British navigator and a pilot on it.
> 
> Keep in mind that being pedantic about the citizenship of the crew (or did you really mean nationality?) would keep many countries from ever entering the AC because of scarcity of enough talent at that level. Think Japan, China and the possibilities of others. It would become the same couple of rich guys over and over - just like what almost killed the event in the past.
> 
> ...


I certainly understand there are different ways to see this and the Kiwis are going to decide which is the right answer for the next race.

In the meantime, the AC is by definition a race between nations. It's in the Deed and whether the crew must be citizens has been debated and changed in the rules of the individual races over time. The Deed does not specifically mention the crew. Major league baseball has teams in both the US and Canada, but it's not a competition among nations. Therefore, imo, irrelevant where the players are from.

From a sportsmanship point of view, if China only has the money to buy a boat and a crew, but doesn't have anyone who can play at that level, that's not very sporting. That's the epitome of indulgence.

In the end, it's a race among two boats. Isn't the two year lead up fairly modern? Indeed, I think Ellison was trying to convert the event to something more like a MLB or the NFL. I enjoyed seeing the World Cup in Newport 5 or so years ago. The AC does need more participants to hold a two year long series. However, according to some new reports, they aren't attracting the volume of attention they need to sustain it. They could throw more money at it, I suppose. However, another option is to scale it back to allow the average billionaire yacht club member to field their own team, rather than have it so long and expensive that it requires such massive corporate involvement or literally the 1% among the 1% to play.

Oddly enough, I mentioned the AC to at least a half dozen sailors at my marina this past weekend, none of which were watching or even following what was going on. These were guys who, to a person, love to sail. Something isn't working.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

capta said:


> So you feel that there aren't enough Americans who can sail, to crew up this or the last AC boats?
> Personally, I'd much rather have seen an American boat, crewed by Americans, representing America lose, than watch some international crew win on the American boat.
> IMO it should be mandatory, and if they can't get an American crew together for the next challenge, then boo hoo. Add that to the lengthening list of failures of 21st century America.


I thought I had made my point more clear than that. The US and a couple of other countries would have no problem meeting this criteria, but it would definitely lock out pretty much all other countries from the competition. Likely permanently. So you would see the US, NZ and SWE forever, and the rest of the world would lose interest. In this AC, Japan and France wouldn't even have been there in your rules, and Sweden is questionable.

I never want to see the boats going back to individual country design and build. I like that they are an international design and built by a single company to exact specs, with only certain (important) changes allowed by individual teams. The last thing I want to see is more catamaran vs. mono, or giant trimaran vs. mega mono, or even the silliness the 12M class became. I definitely don't want to see the cup return to being decided in the courts.

I want to see good racing in exciting matched boats.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

aeventyr60 said:


> Not sure if you guys have noticed, but to me it seems that it is a Corporation challenge....Oracle, Emirates and the list goes on..Hired guns on each boat...not a spectator sport in the flesh either...TV, Internet, flashy pics in the glossy sailing rags. Bermuda as a place to watch for the masses? Only on TV. Good to see it go back to Auckland.


It has always been this way. Always. Even the very first AC race was between corporate boats. The J-class was between commercial robber barons and industrialists promoting themselves as the corporation. The 12M started out with rich people promoting themselves and their corporations, and ended with being 100% corporate-sponsered. There was one single time when Conners was kicked out of the US scene and cobbled together a sponsorship that was so small that one might consider it non-commerical.

Bermuda is a perfect spot for this race, but I agree getting here, and staying here, for a length of time as a spectator requires a commitment and resources most don't have. There were a surprising number of people here from all of the represented countries, however. Even crowds of Japanese.

I don't know what the answer is - this is a sport that occurs over many weeks and requires specific waters and weather conditions. SF was a great venue, but they wouldn't have it again. The other US possibilities fell short on some of the requirements. Bermuda has good weather year-round to practice and develop in, convenient water-front land to establish a base on, and easy flights to pretty much everywhere. This allowed the teams to set up camp here for 2yrs and work on their campaign.

So will you find NZ an easier venue than Bermuda to go watch in?

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I didn't weigh in on the hull itself. I agree that essentially a one-design, with some room for creativity improvements, is best. The Cats v Monos did stink. 

If the entire series were more affordable, there is no doubt that several European Countries could compete, including Britain. The problem is, it's gone from costing tens of millions to costing billions. The crew on Ted Turners boat did not get paid at all. 

It doesn't have to return to 12m hulls to do so. There are a ton of collegiate level sailing athletes that can learn to foil.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> From a sportsmanship point of view, if China only has the money to buy a boat and a crew, but doesn't have anyone who can play at that level, that's not very sporting. That's the epitome of indulgence.


But at least they can start building the talent to play at that level. The only way to do that is to get their people on boats of this level, with skilled crew that can teach them and give them experience. It is a chicken-egg problem. Keeping them out by closing off all avenues to entry is poor sportsmanship as it applies to the AC.

In this event, Oracle gave Japan a boat and trained their people alongside them for two years just to expand the sport. Japan plans to be a regular competitor in the AC now.

And it just isn't "sailors" that are needed for a country. Match racing is a particular type of sailing that isn't well-represented in the sailing sport world. Take the French as an example. Their boat was filled with famous and very skilled French sailors skilled at what the French do best - distance racing in ocean multihulls. If you saw them match racing in the AC, you saw that they were very poor at it and struggled to control this type of boat.

The only way to get these sailors with these skills is to get them in these boats with people that have these skills. This cannot be done by an arbitrary rule of citizenship.



Minnewaska said:


> Oddly enough, I mentioned the AC to at least a half dozen sailors at my marina this past weekend, none of which were watching or even following what was going on. These were guys who, to a person, love to sail. Something isn't working.


Doesn't surprise me. Back in the old days, I completely lost interest in the slow, plodding boats helmed by fat arguing people and almost every sailor I asked felt the same.

Something definitely wasn't working back then either, because nobody paid attention and even the TV networks stopped covering it until the final races. The spectators didn't turn out anymore, and the corporation sponsorships dried up. Among "professional" sailors, the AC was becoming to being considered a lower-level gig.

Everyone looking back through their rose-colored glasses seem to be missing these details about the past&#8230;

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> I didn't weigh in on the hull itself. I agree that essentially a one-design, with some room for creativity improvements, is best. The Cats v Monos did stink.
> 
> If the entire series were more affordable, there is no doubt that several European Countries could compete, including Britain. The problem is, it's gone from costing tens of millions to costing billions. The crew on Ted Turners boat did not get paid at all.
> 
> It doesn't have to return to 12m hulls to do so. There are a ton of collegiate level sailing athletes that can learn to foil.


It never was affordable. Ever. The J-class never had more than 3 boats show up, and mostly it was a challenge between only two billionaires. The 12M was an effort to make it more affordable, but that quickly escalated into economic warfare as rich people chased design (look at Bill Koch's effort).

The AC is now about as cheap as it has ever been because the boat design is fixed and relatively inexpensive. Campaigning these boats is expensive, but not any more so than in the past. Crew salaries are marginal in the overall picture. Amateur (free) crew will never return, and really wasn't part of the AC for much of its existence. Those J-class billionaires paid for crew, the latter 12M's were paid crew, and the original AC schooners were definitely paid crew. Turner may have had "unpaid" crew (I don't know), but he definitely didn't make them pay their travel, training costs, food, housing, etc.

The AC has always been a special kind of racing - one considered a pinnacle. I think it would have no interest at all if it resorted to common boats sailed by collegiate athletes. That is what the olympics and other races are for. Heck, just go down to your local college or beer can races to get that fix.

This point isn't directed at your comments, but I wanted to make it again: if one is longing for racing that involves spinnakers and fancy deck work and intricate mark rounding, then one has become their grandparents. These things are gone forever from the sport. If you see them still, it is like seeing rotary phones during the 1970-80's. The young people aren't sailing these types of boats anymore, and nobody is interested in them. They will quickly become the realm of reenactment events and aficionados.

Mark


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

colemj said:


> I thought I had made my point more clear than that. The US and a couple of other countries would have no problem meeting this criteria, but it would definitely lock out pretty much all other countries from the competition. Likely permanently. So you would see the US, NZ and SWE forever, and the rest of the world would lose interest. In this AC, Japan and France wouldn't even have been there in your rules, and Sweden is questionable.
> 
> I never want to see the boats going back to individual country design and build. I like that they are an international design and built by a single company to exact specs, with only certain (important) changes allowed by individual teams. The last thing I want to see is more catamaran vs. mono, or giant trimaran vs. mega mono, or even the silliness the 12M class became. I definitely don't want to see the cup return to being decided in the courts.
> 
> ...


All that is fine and dandy in any other racing series other than the AC. But it began as a national design, build and crewing competition and I'd like to see at least that one aspect remain the same, no matter how much the rest changes.
I never said the financing had to be national, and I don't care how much corporate sponsorship there is. But in this one racing series, nationality should be important. If that means some countries can't make the grade, well then, too bad.
Realistically speaking though, if some little, relatively poor country like NZ can put up a competitor time after time, then certainly Japan, France or any country could do the same if they chose to.
And giving someone citizenship just to participate (isn't that called a ringer?) should also be disallowed.
All I'm saying is if the boats aren't designed, built, and crewed by the nationals of the country they supposedly represent, then why bother to put a flag on them at all? Leave it as a corporate race and fans can support the boat with the coolest paint job or whatever else suits their fancy.


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## Thoren (Jun 26, 2017)

Interesting discussions. I actually paid attention, mainly because the races were short with all that boat speed and they were basically drag races. Lead changes largely occurred because of mistakes made, not necessarily great tactical work. It was fun, but it's really a new type of sailboat racing.

I was disappointed by the complete sellout to advertising and sponsorship dollars. Sure, they need the money, but did every reference need to include 'presented by Louis Vitton'. Not that they are in my price range, but I'll never even by a knockoff of theirs after that. They made it look as though they invented the America's Cup. The constant push of sponsors became a distraction, right down to the sponsored graphics on the water. Just over the top.

Well, that's my two cents. It'll be really interesting to see what they do in New Zealand.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

* It seems, once any event because national, which the AC was from the beginning... there is discussion of 'how it should be' by the different nations that participate

* I don't thank many countries would spend the money that corporations are spending on the AC. Maybe the would, but I doubt it.

* I really don't think there would be an AC that would have a limit on it... i.e. you can only spend $827,000.27 on your entire program.

* And I kind of get that half of the discussion isn't about it will change, but how people wish it would be different... To some degree, this comes down to 'class distinction.' In most sports (or life) everyone thinks/dreams that they could be the skipper (or cyclist) on the Winning AC boat, that maybe I could bring the Cup back to America. But really, I'm not millionaire enough to do that. or Corporate enough.

The one thing that should be a (if not _*the*_) take away, is it seems the countries that are in the final AC, are countries that yachting is part of who they are as a country. That is no landlocked country has bought themselves into the AC


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

titustiger27 said:


> That is no landlocked country has bought themselves into the AC


Switzerland?

Mark


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Austria, Czech, Slovakia, Hungry


Actually there is a vlog I follow of a sailor from Hungry


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Switzerland actually won the America's cup.

Mark


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

colemj said:


> Switzerland actually won the America's cup.
> 
> Mark


ugh


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> .....I don't know what the answer is - this is a sport that occurs over many weeks and requires specific waters and weather conditions. SF was a great venue, but they wouldn't have it again. The other US possibilities fell short on some of the requirements.


What fell short at Newport? Not that NZ is coming here. Of course, last the AC was here, it was held off the coast and few could see it. The World Series in 2012 was held in East Passage, with stadium seating at Fort Adams. Tons of hotels, restaurants, etc.

I fully agree that the box course and foiling hulls are the way to go to generate spectators. However, its seems the participants themselves are squawking at the total expense of putting this event on for two full years, not just a few weeks. That's what I think may get scaled back, not the boat. I also didn't mean to suggest a collegiate event. I believe that many countries have enough talented collegiate sailors for them to develop the kind of athlete necessary to compete at this level.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree with capta. AC as currently devised has little or nothing to do with sailing. Many
of the bicyclists never were on a boat before. The best engineering not sailors win. The boats need flat water and light air. Only resemblance to a sail boat race is you can blow the start and lose right off.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> What fell short at Newport? Not that NZ is coming here. Of course, last the AC was here, it was held off the coast and few could see it. The World Series in 2012 was held in East Passage, with stadium seating at Fort Adams. Tons of hotels, restaurants, etc.
> 
> I fully agree that the box course and foiling hulls are the way to go to generate spectators. However, its seems the participants themselves are squawking at the total expense of putting this event on for two full years, not just a few weeks. That's what I think may get scaled back, not the boat. I also didn't mean to suggest a collegiate event. I believe that many countries have enough talented collegiate sailors for them to develop the kind of athlete necessary to compete at this level.


Newport is great, except that it has a very short sailing season and very expensive waterfront property and housing for the teams. This wasn't a problem in the old style AC, where the teams just showed up on the race date, but the new style has teams building compounds and spending a year or more at the venue developing the boats and practicing. Maybe this will change.

I don't know about the expenses. This has always been expensive, and the new format is cheaper than in the past for the teams. The host cities will just not bid if it doesn't work for them economically.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> Agree with capta. AC as currently devised has little or nothing to do with sailing. Many
> of the bicyclists never were on a boat before. The best engineering not sailors win. The boats need flat water and light air. Only resemblance to a sail boat race is you can blow the start and lose right off.


The maximum windspeed limit for these boats is the same as for all the past AC boats. One difference is that they can reach 24kts in 6kts of wind. Flat water is neither here nor there because this is stadium racing, where the waves will never be more than 3'. I remember a couple of past AC boats actually breaking in half in 3' seas.

It is obvious you do not understand these boats nor paid attention to the races. Actual facts would help you here. The engineering of the boat, the wing, the basic foils and their degrees of freedom, and the hydraulics are identical for all teams, and only the control systems and up to 30% change in foil dimensions (only allowed 2 changes ever) is all that is left to individual teams. This isn't a box rule - it is a one-design class. No AC class in history was less dependent on individual engineering to win a race. The racing itself was almost entirely up to the skill of the sailors.

This year's races had more tacking duals and more lead changes and closer finishes than all other AC events combined.

Grinders that did nothing but grind, and needing no previous sailing skills, have been part of the AC event almost forever. Nothing new here.

Professional sailboat racing in general is no longer what you think it should be, using boats you think are "real" - and it is getting further away from that quickly. Canting keels, Code 0's, sled underbodies, etc. Look at the Volvo 60's, FC100's, etc that are now at the top of the inshore racing circuits, let alone the ones on the offshore circuits.

You have become your grandpa - GET OFF MY LAWN! 

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Gee C can't understand why then I remain fascinated by the Volvo Ocean 65s and followed that program closely. Don't see any grandmas rooting them on. Try to watch as much of the Vendee Globe as well. Love going to NEB and seeing the latest and greatest.
My dislike of the AC goes way back to Stars and Strips. I've never considered it much of a sailboat race. As mentioned weeks before the thread on it have boat lust for the rapido 60. No C you have the wrong read on this. No lack of appreciation for new engineering masterpieces. Wife and I spent quite a lot of time this past April watching some amazing technology race off St. Bart but after watching the first 4 races of the AC neither of us could give a rodents behind how it ultimately pays out. It's just boring, overdone and not engaging. Seems so contrived. 
Rather see Olympic class boats if I'm going to watch a buoy race. Did J 24s and phrf but really enjoyed the Bermudas much much more. Some like steeplechase- some like flats. Some like formula one - some like NASCAR. Doesn't make you a bad person.

Couple of questions 
If it isn't the engineering what was the genesis of the remarkable comeback for the US last time and the ridiculous loses this time? 
Other than some of people on the back of these boats would you take any of them as part of a Bermuda 1-2?


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