# Researching spinnakers



## KattyC (Dec 9, 2012)

I am looking into buying a spinnaker for my husband for Christmas. He sails a Beneteau First 235. I know nothing about buying sails, so I would appreciate any knowledge that can be passed on regarding what size, which brand, and anything else that would be useful in making this decision. Thanks, KattyC


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Katty,

A spinnaker needs to be made to fit a specific boat. Much like a tailored suit you can buy an off the shelf one, and will look ok, but a custom fit one will always look much better. The difference is that a custom spinnaker is typically only about 10-20% more than an off the shelf one. 

Given the time to build and deliver a new spinnaker, I don't think there is any way you could expect to have one delivered by Christmas. My suggestion is to speak with a local sailmaker and ask him to bill you for one directly, and let him know that your husband will be coming in after Christmas to pick out what he wants. There are significant variations in size, style, color, shape, cut, ect that need to be based out and unless you can provide this to the sailmaker it won't come out the way it should.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

+1 with Stumble

There are so many different cuts and cloth weights for different uses, you could really waste a ton of money if you guessed which he really wanted and for what conditions. It's much more than how they look, it's how they work.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

What a great idea for a Christmas gift!

One thing to consider is that there are two different kinds of spinnakers, and each requires that the boat have some extra hardware that a basic boat might not come with. Each type of spinnaker requires different hardware, with only a small amount of overlap. For example, both require extra long lines to run from the sail's corners all the way aft (I think twice the length of the boat, including the bowsprit if it has one, is the usual rule of thumb).

I had a quick look on Google at the Beneteau First 235 and it looks like a fractional rig, which means you might need some hardware installed inside the mast. You'll also need turning blocks at the transom and possibly a second set of winches. Maybe others can chime in to let us know what is standard on the First 235?

So if you want to help your husband get going towards a spinnaker setup, you probably can't go wrong with a pair of quality (low-stretch) sheets and the hardware to run them aft. And it should be possible to pick this stuff up before Christmas 

Oooh, he can unwrap it on Christmas morning and say, "But I don't have a spinnaker OH WAIT!!"


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Adam's idea is fantastic! At least the spinnaker sheets (lines). The blocks may need to have more specific thought and I would hope you could use the existing jib winches. Having to add winches is a huge expense and effort.

By the way, I'm a fan of Quantum Sails. Quantum Sail Design Group :: Premier Sail Design and Development

If you say where you are located, there are likely members that can suggest a local loft to speak with. They could probably tell you the right line to buy and how long and you could wrap a picture of a spinnaker from their catalog. By the way, there are more sizes and types of lines than there are spinnakers, so you'll want to ask.

Good luck. You mind speaking to my wife?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nice idea, plenty of good advice above. Lead time for most sailmakers is upwards of 6-8 weeks so by Christmas just isn't going to happen unless you get really lucky and find a sailmaker with an appropriate sail that someone didn't pick up.

Another route is to go to an on-line sailmaker's site like FX sails, and run through the estimator - that will likely give you some dimensions and approx. price (quite a bit less than locals as a rule.. but similar wait times) With these dimensions at least you'll have an idea of what to look for elsewhere.

If the boat's not been rigged for a spinnaker yet there's almost as much money in the gear, lines and rig modifications as the sail itself so it's not an inexpensive proposition.

Here's the link to FX..... Custom Cruising and Racing Spinnakers from FX Sails


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## KattyC (Dec 9, 2012)

Thanks to all of you for this great feedback. I had a feeling it would be more complicated and expensive than I thought. That's okay, though. I'm not giving up. 

I originally didn't say anything about myself, because I don't want my husband to recognize me on this site. But if anyone knows of a sail maker in Utah, I'd love the contact information. 

I think my plan for Christmas will be to make a "spinnaker" beer label for his next batch of home brew and give that to him along with this string of great information and hopefully a local sail maker's contact info. Oh and maybe 20 x $100 bills, as it sounds like that is about what it will cost for the spinnaker and gear to go along with it. Good thing I've been saving my pennies


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The FX estimator shows $900 for an asymmetrical spinnaker (needs only halyard, sheets and maybe a sock/snuffer) and near $1300 for a symmetrical spinnaker that would need a pole, lift and downhaul plus the sheets and halyard & hardware. Local prices are likely to be higher.

In any event by the time the dust has cleared you'll be well into the +$2k - but all in all a worthwhile addition. Initially he'll certainly need your help in flying it, you can learn together!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Personally, unless racing directly downwind, I see no justification for a symmetrical spinnaker any longer. They are harder to fly and require more stuff (ie spinn pole and mast attachments). However, they've made so many different asymmetrical spinnakers that one really needs to decide what they want to do with it.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I had an asymmetrical spinnaker on my P26 and I now have a symmetrical spinnaker on my P28. The symmetrical spinnaker is a vast improvement on a smaller boat. The pole allows such greater projection of the luff of sail, even on a boat with a relatively large J dimension. People make a big deal out of raising and dousing the sail, when actually the most difficult aspect is jibing in stronger winds while sailing solo.

While an asymmetrical may be a useful addition to a sail inventory, particularly for a closer reaching angle, I will always start first with a symmetrical spinnaker in building a sail inventory on any boat from now on.

Your husband will probably be happy to add the additional gear. Nice present, BTW!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I have to agree with James.. we've flown symmetrical spinnakers for decades, and maybe that's a factor, but we've found that with a recently acquired asymm, we only use it on reaches that are likely to be a fetch.

For deeper sailing and, for us, EASE of gybing we go with the symmetrical every time.

I find that gybing the symm is much easier on the sail, as it seems one is always dragging sailcloth around the rig, and often through an inversion to gybe an Asymm. Doing an outside gybe in a breeze is a bit better, but then there's the risk of sailing over the lazy sheet if you're a bit inattentive...

With the two of us, and "Otto" steering a 20 degree (via remote) course change through the gybe I handle the pole while my wife handles the lines from the cockpit. 

The only advantage of 'starting' with an asymm would be the reduced cost overall....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not going to argue for asyms, to each their own. 

However, for the OP, its is important to note that not all asyms are alike. Those that will drive on the deepest reach, won't fly on the beam and vice versa.

Yes, ultimately the asym set up is much cheaper, which also works for me. I so rarely feel the need for a spinnaker at all. I haven't even sprung for one this boat yet. Of course, I did price one up and at $6k for the sail alone, I'm still pondering.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> Not going to argue for asyms, to each their own.
> 
> However, for the OP, its is important to note that not all asyms are alike. Those that will drive on the deepest reach, won't fly on the beam and vice versa.
> 
> Yes, ultimately the asym set up is much cheaper, which also works for me. I so rarely feel the need for a spinnaker at all. I haven't even sprung for one this boat yet. Of course, I did price one up and at $6k for the sail alone, I'm still pondering.


All true.. and on larger boats the cost does get up there in a hurry.


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## KattyC (Dec 9, 2012)

So can one raise a symmetrical spinnaker sailing solo? I sail with him some times and will help when I am with him; however, he sails solo as well. I would want to buy him something that he would be able to use solo, if possible.

Yes. I think he likes the gifts I buy him. I'm quite certain I never bought him a tie. A fly tying kit, maybe....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

KattyC said:


> So can one raise a symmetrical spinnaker sailing solo? I sail with him some times and will help when I am with him; however, he sails solo as well. I would want to buy him something that he would be able to use solo, if possible....


Some can, most wouldn't, so it depends on him. It would be more manageable on a 23ft boat, but still a real PITA. If he sails solo now, then an Asym is virtually no different.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

KattyC said:


> So can one raise a symmetrical spinnaker sailing solo?


Yes, I do frequently, and your husband probably will, provided he enjoys challenges (or has three arms):


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> Yes, I do frequently, and your husband probably will, provided he enjoys challenges


Got one of raising it, dousing or gybing?


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

> Got one of raising it, dousing or gybing?


Of course not, no one to hold the camera. 

I've flown a chute solo before without an autopilot. It's almost impossible to do on my 25 footer. My boat doesn't track very well (at all) downwind and can get squirrely pretty quick in breeze.

If you think he'll fly it solo, ask the sailmaker about getting a takedown line sewn onto the spinnaker. On small boats with small kites, this makes it very easy to douse.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

zz4gta said:


> Of course not, no one to hold the camera.


It was a trick question. 

Still, wouldn't you love to see someone raise/douse/gybe it alone, while another films, especially without an autopilot? It would be like a cliff hanger. Then, lets see a huge puff shifting to a broad reach and it will become like a horror film. Then, as they finally recover, douse it all back into its bag and are left weeping in the cockpit, it would be a chick flick. We have a real winner to appeal to all audiences.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Some videos of singelhanded spinnaker sailing . enjoy 
These are not mine.

Hoisting - Symmetric





Gybe - Symmetric





Takedown - Symmetric





Gybe - Assymetric





Takedown - Assymetric


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

jameswilson29 said:


> Yes, I do frequently, and your husband probably will, provided he enjoys challenges (or has three arms):Pearson 28 "Thoe" on singlehanded spinnaker run in Atlantic Ocean off Ocean City, Maryland - YouTube


Ummmm.....Wham? Dude, we need to talk.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

knuterikt said:


> Some videos of singelhanded spinnaker sailing . enjoy


I am impressed. However, it seems someone else or an autopilot has the helm in each of these.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

You can definitely use a symmetrical while sailing solo. Ask anybody who's been in a solo race. While it's a thousand times harder without an autopilot, the OP did say that he already sails solo, so there's a decent chance he already has an autopilot. I couldn't recommend spending much time going up on deck without one.

Most of the time we used our symmetrical spinnaker, it was double-handed work, with my wife steering and managing the mainsheet. This was very manageable as we only used the sail in conditions where we thought it would be easy to use.

Regardless of which type of spinnaker you choose, including no spinnaker at all, there are risks that are exacerbated for singlehanders and mitigated by autopilots and crew. I would never plan a sailing trip based on the assumption that nobody will ever need to go to the foredeck, a place where so many essential boathandling activities occur. So saying, "You can use this sail solo without an autopilot" sounds like asking for trouble.

If he doesn't have an autopilot, why look, another Christmas idea...


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> I am impressed. However, it seems someone else or an autopilot has the helm in each of these.


He is using a autopilot for sure


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> I am impressed. However, it seems someone else or an autopilot has the helm in each of these.


Another thing is that this guy (he is one of the more experienced short hand sailors in Norway) like to use what he calls ASOP (Asymmetric Overlength Pole).

He uses an Asymmetric spinnaker with a spinnaker pole that is J + 1 meter (approximately) long.

The asymmetric is set in the traditional way with and adjustable tack line in front of the head sail. In addition to this he have two spinnaker guys attached to the tack of the sail.

The idea is that he set the asymmetric in the usual fashion, the sail is also gybed on the outside.

The spinnaker pole is used to pull the the tack to windward on deeper angles and also move the sail center forward on sharper angles.



> This setup is penalized on the boats rating but it is worth it


On my boat the asymmetric is set on a bowsprit but I have rigged guys so I can use the spinnaker (normal length) to move the tack to windward on deeper angles.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

rbrasi said:


> Ummmm.....Wham? Dude, we need to talk.


Hey man, that was playing on the radio station. I do not now have, and have never had, any WHAM! recordings (although that was their best song IMHO).

The whole way up and down the Delmarva coast, it was either Top 40/Urban Dance music, Country music, or Beach music, while I was within radio reception.

I became well acquainted with all the newest dance tracks, some of which are still playing in my head 5 months later.


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## KattyC (Dec 9, 2012)

You guys are cracking me up! I wasn't going to say anything about the "Wham" background, but since someone already did....I just have to laugh! And the weeping in the cockpit because of someone flying a spinnaker (whether it be asymmetrical or symmetrical) solo with no autopilot....this is just great stuff. I can't wait to print this stuff out for my husband!

So, I'm thinking symmetrical is the way to go. Although I'm still going to give him cash and he can figure all of this out. I now have a number for a local sailmaker and some good contact info to order one on-line. 

Thanks for all of the videos and info. I now feel good about this year's present. Watching the videos, I can see how fast you can go with a spinnaker up. He will LOVE that! He has an autopilot and he has myself and two boys, so we should be good to go!

Thanks a bunch! Katty C


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Standard rate for videos and advice is videos or pics of your own, ideally showing the Christmas Spinnaker pulling your boat along. I think we can wait until you guys have practiced with it a few times but eventually we will demand our payment.


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## KattyC (Dec 9, 2012)

No problem. But don't expect anything until early Spring as everything is frozen here right now. It might be best to send you all the first videos of us trying to raise a spinnaker. I'm sure it will be hilarious!:laugher


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

KattyC said:


> No problem. But don't expect anything until early Spring as everything is frozen here right now. It might be best to send you all the first videos of us trying to raise a spinnaker. I'm sure it will be hilarious!:laugher


I will be really impressed if you can get a video of a spinnaker hoist, especially a failed one


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