# seek advice on offshore cruiser



## maiden (Mar 9, 2002)

HI there
I''m a new member, after browsing the site for a few weeks. I''m planning on the purchase of my first boat. I have a budget of $65,000. I will live aboard for most of the year in the Virgins. I will be making occasional trips south to St. Lucia, and also occasional voyages to the U.S. east coast. I''ll have other crew for offshore passages, but will spend most of my time single handling. I''ve spent a lot of time checking the Yachtworld site for boats. Of the following boats which would suit my needs best? Cal 39, Downeaster, Alberg (Whitby built) 37, Allied Princess? I notice the fuel capacity on the Alberg and the Allied is quite small. I used to work on charter boats and wonder if the Gulfstar 37 or Irwin 37 would be acceptable boats for my use. ( I''d like to have 2 cabins) Thanks for your input.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Are you now in the virgin islands?
eric


----------



## maiden (Mar 9, 2002)

Hi Eric,
No,not at this time. I am spending this winter up in Minnesota. It''s blowing 35 today and windchill is 40 below.... any wonder I am thinking of returning back there? I was there for a week in early December, just to sail awhile. I hope to have a boat by this time next year.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am comtemplating the same thing, and hope to embark this fall. 36 38 feet seems to be the common length, but folks write about a mystical line where one would be foolish to cross with anything but the best of offshore equipment. The boats I read about in books tend to be well equiped as far as sails go, shoal draft keels and lots of storage. If we compromise on equipment, we have to decide at what point that compromises safety. In the last movie I saw, the guy set sail on a raft he built... 
I have been looking at sailboats on the Great Lakes and hope to make my way south via the barge canal in NY.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Maiden, 

From your post above it looks like you are looking at older (70''s vintage) boats for cruising. Your budget is probably adequate for this. Keep in mind a couple things to begin with: 1) older boats needs more $ to get them ready for sea, electrical systems may need upgrading etc, 2) older boats have more austere accomodations that similar sized new boats and 3) Equipping the boat for cruising/livaboard/ offshore will take a significant amount of cash after the sale. 

The boats you list above are all very different. The Cal 39 is a sturdy and FAST boat, it carries a lot more canvas than the others mentioned. I think it would be harder to single hand than the others mentioned. The Downeast, Alberg and Allied Princess are all well thought of, but very very slow and cramped by today''s standards. The Alberg especially - though it has beautiful lines and many couples have cruised on them... but they are very cramped. 

And you mention after cabin, for $65k on a 36-37ft boat. I do not know of any boat that fits that criteria (except for perhaps a Catalina 36 or Hunter 37.. but not sure if these are appropriate if you are really going offshore). I do agree that an aft cabin (even a quarter cabin is very very nice to have. Boats of any size are not a lot of space to live on. In my opinion, dividing up the cabin with more private cabin''s helps to make a boat more comfortable and private for everyone aboard. 

There are many people here much more qualified than I who, hopefully, will give you some good recommendations. I will suggest you look at a couple different boats, one 70''s vintage, one 80''s vintage and then make a list of your absolutely required criteria and which of those criteria you are willing to compromise on (like private aft cabin, price etc). 

For a livable boat that can be single handed, my choice was 38ft. One boat you might consider would be an Allied Mistress 39. They are ketch rigged, center cockpit with a large private aft cabin. They are not fast but not slow and can be had at a very attractive price. Allied''s have a reputation for being well built offshore boats. 

Hope this helps


----------



## maiden (Mar 9, 2002)

To all,
Thank you for your input. I have another thing to try and figure out. I have family that would like to buy the boat along with me. This would enable me to get a better boat. The catch is that they would want me to run it as a charter boat. So now lets say I have a budget of $130,000. With the same agenda..... occasional offshore, most of the time in the Virgins, and I''m living aboard for 9 months, and now doing some term charters. What kind of boat now?


----------



## maiden (Mar 9, 2002)

PS... and I rented my townhouse to a John Drake.... by any chance are you the guy? That was in Illinois.


----------



## maiden (Mar 9, 2002)

Hi pmills
It is possible I''ll also do the Great Lakes to the canal system. I was invited to make the trip once, but had to cancel. Are there mast height limitations on the canals? Are you on the Great Lakes now?


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

"So now lets say I have a budget of $130,000. With the same agenda..... occasional offshore, most of the time in the Virgins, and I''m living aboard for 9 months, and now doing some term charters. What kind of boat now?"

There are a lot of ways to go there. -Something moderately tough and not too expensive like a Columbia 50, Landfall 48, Perry 48, Cheoy Lee Offshore 48 (if you don''t mind the maintenance), Pearson Countess 44, Columbia 43, CSY 44 or Gulfstar 50.
-Something fast and not too expensive like a Hunter 54,or C&C 44.
-Something more modern and set up for charter like a Beneteau First 45f5, or 42s7. 
-Something classic like a Hughes 48, Palmer Johnson/Nautor43, Nicholson 44 or 1970''s era Baltic 46.
-Something like a venerable offshore boat like a Hinterholer 42,(Ft. Myers Yacht & Ship) Brewer 12.8 cutter or Kelly Peterson 44 or 46.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sorry, no, not that guy. 

That kind of budget really opens up your possibilities. Jeff has given you a wide swath to think about. That kind of money puts you in the range of some nice high end bluewater boats like a Passport 40, to larger venerable 70''s vintage cruisers mentioned to standard coastal cruising production boats like a Catalina or Hunter that have condo like cabins. The Niagara 42 and Brewer 12.8 are certainly great boats if you can find one at that price. 

The field is too wide to give you any real suggestion. I would suggest again, making a list of your real needs. How strong a build and what quality reputation do you want to go with... age (my personal search criteria was no older than 1980)...size... accomodations (this will be critically important for successful chartering)... hull and deck (cored, uncored, teak decks etc)... easily single or short handed...etc. And go from there. If you are single or short handing, check the displacement and sail area of the boat... you may find a boat like the Bene 45f5 way too much to handle... its light and carries a lot of canvas. 

My personal criteria were:
A boat I could single hand
around 38ft
Solid glass hull
18,000-22,000 lbs displacement (heavy)
private aft quarter cabin
shoal draft
1982 or newer
bluewater capable
decent livaboard
finely finished below
Excellent quality builder
A boat I would be proud to own
A certain price range.

The boat I choose was a Wauquiez Hood 38

You can get an idea of the different types of boats you can have for your budget by going to a site like Yachtworld and doing a search. Look up to $150k in the hope of negotiating down from there. 

Have fun

Best of luck


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi again,
The canal system requires you to remove the mast in Lake Onterio. you motor to Albany and then can sail south down the Hudson. 
There is a fee, and a season''s pass is 75.00. The alternative is the St Lawrence Sea way which is quite a bit longer, or trucking the boat. The Hudson River, and NY harbor are wonderful. Marinas: they can help with masts at both ends, and inbetween there are places to stay, shop, fuel and so on. Motor yachts cruise the canal all the time, during the summer and it is quite an extensive system. there is a webb site for it. If you beat me to it, stop in Utica and I will meet you for lunch!


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello:

My family(wife,2 boys ages 7&3)are looking to liveaboard and cruise within the next year. We are currently "land dwellers" with
some previous sailing experience(before children). I would like recomendations on cruising catamarans---pre-owned. I have read
articles on Heavenly Twins, Catalacs & Prouts. What about other catamarans-Americat,
Endeavourcat,etc.? Any ideas? Our budget is
around $60,000--have to sell the house first! also, any thoughts on "cat-rigged" versus "sloop-rigged" catamarans?

Thanks!


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Brian, My wife and I are planning on doing the same thing! House goes on market next year! I''ve been doing a lot of reserch on Cat''s myself. Question? After seeing cataramans at both Miami and Oakland boat shows, And seeing their prices, where do you expect to find a Catamaran that will host a family of 4 and cost $60,000.00? I''m looking for a 35 to 45 ft Cat, I hope to get a newer used one for around $200,000.00! Don''t mean you can''t find a used one for $60,000.00 and But you do get what you pay for....or do you?


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

maiden, Why not fly down to the Virgin Islands and look for a boat there? It''s not uncommon to find a good seaworthy boat for sail at a ''crossroads'' destination like that, which the owner just wants to walk away from. 

Cash talks!!


----------



## maiden (Mar 9, 2002)

Do you mean these boats would not be listed with a broker? I would love to avoid the sales tax.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yea....
A great place to look for a boat is at a marina with a yard full of boats. There''s a good one on Virgin Gorda.

I would think that if you vacationed in the VI and BVI and traveled to the various boat yards, talked to the yard managers and employees, you might be able to connect with an owner that would be happy to sell their boat as is, where is, for the right price.

Don''t know if there''s a sales tax in the BVI. Eric on Kimberlite would be a great source of info for this sort of thing. He lives on St. Thomas, I think. 

St. Martin has a decent yard as well, as I remember. I looked at boats there many years ago.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

If you bring her back to the States there is an import duty and ,depending on the state, local sales tax to pay. If you are buying a boat to bring to the Carribean and will be leaving the state quickly, there is no sales tax in most States. 

Jeff


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

if you plan on visiting the caribbean every year you can register the boat in the usvi''s and ther is no tax just a $125 or so registration fee each year.
if you are looking for a ready to circumnavigate boat-- kimberlite is for sale. see http://kimberlite1.homestead.com
cheers 
eric
eric


----------



## maiden (Mar 9, 2002)

Thanks to all of you for the most appreciated information. I have been perusing websites and magazines and certainly been reading as much as I can find here at sailnet. Just a few more questions though. In reading the debates over encapsulated or bolted on keel, I would like to have a bolted on keel. In the debate over keel-stepped mast over deck-stepped mast, I could go either way....providing the deck stepped mast was well supported. There''s the issue of solid fiberglass or cored and all sorts of other structural details. At the Yachtworld site, and boats.com site these things are not mentioned about the boats for sale. Where can I find such information? Thanks to all in advance.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I don''t know of a site that really gives you coring information. You can usually tell by looking at the boat from the interior but not always because liners and the like can obsure whether the boat is cored. You should be able to ask the broker but many times they don''t really know. For example, I have had brokers tell me that older Hunters are cored which they aren''t. 

Regards
Jeff


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I found the two vol set, Practical Boat Buying" from Practical Sailor particularly helpful in detailing the construction of a lot of boats. They always include information in coring and coring materials. They detail many many boats, from 20ft to 60. I found it invaluable in my search.

I got it at Amazon.

Hope this helps.


----------



## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

There is a "sales tax" in most states. It''s referred to as a "use tax." No sales tax in the USVI, New Hampster, and several other states BUT . . . say you live in Maine and buy a boat in the USVI where there is no sales tax. Then you document the boat. The State of Maine has a cross-reference with the USCG Doc station in Falling Waters and in Boston. You MUST register your boat in it''s state of residence. (Although some of these islands down here wouldn''t know what to do with a properly state registered but undocumented boat trying to clear in.) You need not DOCUMENT the boat with the USCG. However, once you do, if your home state carries a sales tax, or the state where you keep the boat carries a sales tax, you''ll be charged either the sales or a "use tax." The "use tax" recognizes that, although the boat may not have been bought in the taxing state, it''s "used" there - typically located there 6 mos a year or more. Generally, you DO get a dollar for dollar offset for any "sales" or "use" tax paid elsewhere. The import tax to the USVI from the BVI is generally only for foreign built vessels, I believe, and I think it''s about 4%. The Good ''Ol State of Maine henpecked me for several years after I bought my boat. I lived in NH at the time, but the boat had been located in SW Harbor, Maine. They discovered the transaction through the Maine Tax Bureau''s hookup with the Coast Guard, since I documented the boat naming Deer Isle, Maine (parents live there). These people are worse than the IRS. I finally told them, after about 4 years of screwing around, that I was "moving to the Caribbean" and if they wanted anything, they better make up their minds. Offer and compromise for the tax amount of 5.5% of the purchase price. Jeesh, they wanted over $5,000. DEMANDED it. I paid $1,760.00 for a release letter. If you are a domiciliary of a taxing state, that state wants sales tax from anything purchased within the state. Buy the boat elsewhere and bring it home, your state will want "use tax." Boy. I''ve even confused myself. Check with each state''s taxing authority, but use and alias.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Goes something like this......

Simply document back them that the boat is not located in Maine, taxes (show receipts) have been paid to the state where the boat is kept. 
Its like owning property, etc. in another state - both states are not entitled to the taxes, only the state where the property is kept. If you ever move the boat back to Maine and Maine has a higher tax rate, then you will owe the differential (of current taxable value) to Maine.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If I am not mistaken the problem (for VI) is that VI''s boat IS in Maine.


----------



## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

Ahhhh, but the boat was IN Maine (and it still is, dammit) when I purchased it. So Maine wanted a sales tax, and legitimately so. At the time, I just didn''t realize one had to pay tax on used items other than maybe cars. Never did on outboards, small boats, etc., but got educated by the Maine Tax Bureau. See, NH has no sales tax on anything. Maine Tax people HATE that, b/c everyone runs across the border to buy stuff. So if you were a Maine resident and bought a boat in NH, Maine would expect the "use tax" which is equivalent to the sales tax. And they''d haunt you to your grave and beyond. The person with the earlier post stating she''d like to avoid brokers to avoid sales taxes, er, whut?


----------



## maiden (Mar 9, 2002)

Hi VIExile
Sorry, I didn''t mean for my post to be construed that by buying from an owner instead of a broker, I would avoid sales tax. It was in response to a post that recommended that I buy a boat from an owner in the Virgin Islands. Having heard that there was no sales tax in the Virgin Islands. Thanks for your input. I am learning so much.


----------

