# Global Big Freakin' Regatta. Possible?



## smackdaddy

*Big Freakin' Global Regatta. Possible?*

If you're just starting this thread, things have evolved since this first post:

Here's a link to the current GR courses and rules (note that the sign up stuff does not yet work - just submit your course in this thread for now):
GR courses and rules

Here's a link on how to create your course in Google Earth:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/61800-global-big-freakin-regatta-possible-16.html#post576583

+++++++++++++++++

Okay, I've got this stupid idea that will probably never work, but it's worth suffering the potential humiliation if it actually could. Because it might be fun.

It's kind of like Nike Plus for sailing.

So you smart guys help me figure this out...

The basic idiotic idea is this:

1. We set up a triangular distance course that we all agree on. Overall distance is "X" - can be any configuration.
2. We project that course onto our chosen bodies of water (Lake Travis, Chesapeake Bay, Lake Superior, San Fran Bay, Sydney Harbor, Tasman Sea, Bay of Biscay, The English Channel, whatever), along with the GPS coordinates of each "mark".

For example, here is a 5 NM course on Lake Travis:









3. We all then start racing our courses whenever we want, and as many times as we want throughout the season - using the GPS coordinates.
4. We then bring our times back, and enter them along with our boat type, etc.
5. We see who the fastest boats are on each respective body of water for each season.
6. The leaders start talkin' trash to the losers.

Okay - start telling me all the reasons this can't work. Then let's do it.


----------



## GeorgeB

Is that 2NM per leg or 2NM total?


----------



## smackdaddy

2NM total. It's a freakin' river - what can I say?

Seriously, what should it be? If I need to get the Army Corps in here to expand the lake...I'll do it!


----------



## mgmhead

So Smacky, how many laps do you propose?


----------



## JohnRPollard

smackdaddy said:


> 2NM total. It's a freakin' river - what can I say?
> 
> Seriously, what should it be? If I need to get the Army Corps in here to expand the lake...I'll do it!


2 nm !?! Our boat will just be building up some speed at the end of 2 nm. And it takes us about that far to alter course.  

10 nm would be more like it. No need for the corps, you can do 5 laps.

Of course, when boats race, they're supposed to be in the same wind conditions. Otherwise, there's no basis for comparison. But if we get to choose the time and place, there's a twenty knot breeze and a beam reach-broad reach-close reach course that has our name on it.


----------



## smackdaddy

Laps around you while you're struggling to cover those 2NM in your Sabre? Plenty pal! Plenty!


----------



## GeorgeB

Interesting idea you have there. You just need to work out the details. Will you have a "lake" division (your 2NM "short" course) and a "salt water" (longer) course? Then, how do you assign handicaps? Do we race our PHRF certificates? Your "lake" course is only 2/3 of a NM on each leg. Granted, I loose speed in turns (and it's too short to fly a kite for me), but I calculate my corrected time to be under the 20 Min mark.


----------



## smackdaddy

JohnRPollard said:


> 2 nm !?! Our boat will just be building up some speed at the end of 2 nm. And it takes us about that far to alter course.
> 
> 10 nm would be more like it. No need for the corps, you can do 5 laps.
> 
> Of course, when boats race, they're supposed to be in the same wind conditions. Otherwise, there's no basis for comparison. But if we get to choose the time and place, there's a twenty knot breeze and a beam reach-broad reach-close reach course that has our name on it.


Ay-yay-yay. You're protesting already?

Yes, yes I know about the wind conditions, basis of comparison...blah, blah. That's why this is an ongoing kind of thing - not a single race. That's why you enter all your data into what we call a "database" from which you can pull "data" and compare it!

Think, man, think!


----------



## smackdaddy

GeorgeB said:


> Interesting idea you have there. You just need to work out the details. Will you have a "lake" division (your 2NM "short" course) and a "salt water" (longer) course? Then, how do you assign handicaps? Do we race our PHRF certificates? Your "lake" course is only 2/3 of a NM on each leg. Granted, I loose speed in turns (and it's too short to fly a kite for me), but I calculate my corrected time to be under the 20 Min mark.


Agreed on the details. That's why I'm coming to the pros!

Maybe you're right about various courses. I'll try to get 3 out of the lake/river course - for 1NM on each leg. So what should it be for the salt?

As for all the other PHRF stuff - I say we start off by keeping is stupid simple. Take it back to the old days and just make it a free-for-all.

Work with me here!


----------



## mgmhead

smackdaddy said:


> Laps around you while you're struggling to cover those 2NM in your Sabre? Plenty pal! Plenty!


Smack-man, no offense... Like JR there's a need to get up to speed. I know, if I start 2NM from the starting line I should be up to speed by the time I get there. Game On!!!


----------



## smackdaddy

mgmhead said:


> Smack-man, no offense... Like JR there's a need to get up to speed. I know, if I start 2NM from the starting line I should be up to speed by the time I get there. Game On!!!


I never take offense. I just scream in triumphant rage as my C27 blows by my "competitors" in a blur of cracked and stained gelcoat and baggy sails!


----------



## CalebD

smackdaddy said:


> As for all the other PHRF stuff - I say we start off by keeping is stupid simple. Take it back to the old days and just make it a free-for-all.
> 
> Work with me here!


Smack,
I know you have not done much racing yet so I'll try to wipe the smirk off my face. The 'free-for-all' you are advocating would be more like GeorgeB's SF Bay 'any way around' race and basically unfair to older boats with high PHRF ratings. Another kind of free for all is 1 Class racing where all the boats are within the same class guidelines and everyone has to go around the marks in the same direction. At least in 1 Class racing everyone is sailing more or less the same boat and there are no 'corrected' times based on PHRF or other rating. Most casual to competitive races have multiple boat designs competing against each other and this is why they came up with the PHRF (performance handicap racing fleet) ratings.

Sure, you could chuck the PHRF ratings out the window as they are not as accurate as they sound but then only racing scows would win and be able to gloat over the others. The PHRF ratings at least level the playing field a bit so I would not dismiss them so casually if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Another point. Since PHRF ratings are used so extensively many clubs that hold races set up several divisions within the racing fleet. This is another nod to 'fair play' so that boats that fly spinnakers are not competing with those that do not and racing scows are not competing with 'old shoes' like my boat. For example, the racing fleet may be divided into 'spinnaker' & 'non-spinnaker' divisions and each of those further sub-divided into divisions of PHRF '< 150' & '>151' (yes, my boat is in the slowest division of all with a PHRF of 240!). This simplistic example would give you 4 separate divisions of the fleet who only compete within their own division. Many of the bigger races even have separate divisions for multihulls, professionals, over 50' LWL, under 50' LWL ... etc, etc.

You could chuck the PHRF ratings out of your idea but if you did then Larry Ellison with his massive Catamaran would probably win all the time (as if he would enter the 'Global Smacktanic Regatta') unless the race course was set to be very short, say, 200 yards a leg.

So, you need an inland lakes/rivers division(s) and open water division(s) based on all the other divisions I 'ave already mentioned, mate, before anyone will really take your idea too seriously - unless they 'appen t'ave a Melges racing scow.

I better stop there before I regret or am sorry for anything else I type (say).


----------



## bljones

Look, I think smack is onto something here- sort of the nautical equivalent of sportsman class drag racing, or Solo racing. Run what you brung, when you brung it, and compare times. I don't see why a handicap system could not be set up that accounts for wind conditions and PHRF, and if you want to get waaaaaayyyyy too organized, a series of classes- lightweight, heavyweight, old shoe, etc.

Or just set your waypoints, go out there and lap the bouys, and get your time in; we'll sort out the whiners from the winners later. It ain't like it's gonna cost anybody anything.


----------



## smackdaddy

Caleb - I've done absolutely no racing. So feel free to smirk. It's not a problem at all as long as we're making progress.

The Fiasco race is actually part of what gave me the idea. And everybody and their sailingdog is ALWAYS complaining about PHRF. So, I figured this was just more the Ultimate Global Beer Can Challenge kind of thing.

Of course, if the scows or Open 60's start winning everything in sight - then us 4KSBers figure out a way to take 'em down.

I figure it just needs to be stupid simple and fun.


----------



## bljones

okay, so it looks like the score is currently "gung-ho doers" - 2, and "it'll never work, it won't be fair, forget it"- 4.

Come on folks, vote early, and vote often.


----------



## smackdaddy

GHDs ROCK!


----------



## CalebD

Alright, then I can sail my windsurfer or my Lightning on the same course.
I wuz' just pointin' out to the ole' Smacker that if he wants to 'market' 'iz idea to the masses that most blokes are quite comfy with the PHRF ratings system.
Balls to the wall racing I'd probably use the Lightning with it's planing hull and spinnaker. The 'old shoe' is a comfy cruiser after all.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - then let's try this...if you had to categorize sailboats in the broadest possible categories - what would they be?

BAY (Big Ass Yacht) 
4KSB (you know)
LARB (Little Ass Race Boat)
BARB (Big Ass Race Boat)
MULTIs (you know)
ODWS (Other devices with sails)

Would that cover it?


----------



## blt2ski

How about OS, ie "Old Shoe!"
I have a 6ksb, so where do I fit?


----------



## bljones

I think you should classify boats by their beer storage.
Soft cooler 
Igloo cooler- portable
Igloo cooler- installed
Icebox under 2 cu ft
Icebox over 2 cu ft
12 volt fridge
12volt/110 fridge
12 volt/110 fridge/freezer
12 volt/110 fridge freezer/icemaker.

That would tell you everything you need to know about the boat, and allows for some creative rule bending. A windsurfer with an icemaker installed ahead of the mast would be a q-ship.


----------



## smackdaddy

Now we're getting somewhere bl.

What do you think GeorgeB? How do they do the Fiasco?


----------



## sailingdog

Exactly how do you BFS on a pond like that???


----------



## smackdaddy

Sigh. Dog, dude - you have so much to learn about sailing. Ask CharlieCobra.

Now, Mr. IT, how do we design the database - keeping in mind that we keep things as simple as possible?

Boat Brand
LOA
Category (see above)
Beaufort Rating (easier than specifics?)
Course (location, long or short, etc.)
Date of Race
Start Time
Overall Race Time
Number of Crew
Spinnaker (Y/N)

What else?


----------



## bljones

an excel spreadsheet would probably work fine.


----------



## Ajax_MD

If you're looking for voices to vote "yea" or "nay", put me down as a "yea".

Caveat: my knowledge of sail racing is less than or equal to Smack's.


----------



## CalypsoP35

*YEA BAAABY, LET's FREAKIN SAIL*

OK, give me a break I have cabin fever up here in the northeast.

I vote yea, with Caleb's modifications. At least, add PHRF rating to the database. Even if you decide not to use it, someone could always go in and calculate the PHRF corrected times.

Now I'll have to actually learn how to use more of the functions on my GPS.


----------



## bljones

PHRF is for whiners and those who don't know how to creatively reinterpret the rules. 
The only reason to overcomplicate things is because you don't think you can win. 

Smack, there may need to be a protest protocol established.


----------



## smackdaddy

SOP is the protocol. It's "Screw Off Please". It firm, yet gentlemanly. Perfectly suitable for yachting.

As for PHRF. SOP.

IMUSO, bl has it right a few posts ago. You just sail what you got. If you're slower than another boat in your general category - then just sail faster. Or buy new sails, or better yet, a new damn boat! If you need to use a calculator at the end of a race to find out who won...

1. You're wayyyyy too sober at the end of the race to actually have the motor skills to push those tiny buttons.
2. Who gives a damn? Just tell us who had the fastest time.

Bottom line is this - we all see the complaints about how club racing is dying. With maybe 10 boats showing up for an event. PHRF.

Then you've got GeorgeB's Fiasco race with 300+ boats! 300+! Guys, wake up! All out, no holds barred, loosey-goosey racing is where it's at! Maybe we should call this thing the "Global Fiasco Regatta".

PS - Calypso, you are definitely in!


----------



## CalypsoP35

Not winning has never kept from racing before.


----------



## smackdaddy

Now you're talkin' Caly!


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay, I've got my guys starting to work on the database. You racers give me the fields we need to have. Does anyone have a spreadsheet or something from an actual race?


----------



## sailingdog

Not only are you going to have to adjust for the difference in performance of the various boats, but to make it fair, you'd have to adjust for the different weather conditions and seastate at the different venues. I don't see how you can gather enough data to do a reasonable approximation of that at the current time, with the current technology.


----------



## smackdaddy

Well, to me, the underlying assumption on which all that data and technology would be predicated is flawed - that is that it needs to be "fair". And what does "fair" really mean anyway?

It's just a fun bashfest.

But seriously, let's say that we just use the Water-Body-Type/Beaufort-Scale/Boat-Type. Pretty good start don't you think?

Anyway, it's doable from a technology standpoint. Trust me.


----------



## bljones

SD, respectfully, f**k a whole bunch of fair. 

The problem with "being fair" is that you end up with a 400 page rulebook that covers every what-if, every complaint, every reason why a boat doesn't win, and then sets out handicapping, penalties, sizes, weights, minimums and maximums and ...

It stops being fun, starts getting expensive, and the sportsmanship gets lost in the shuffle.


If one is really really worried about winning, then perhaps an unstructured fun race is not what one is looking for.

Auto racing is finally getting it. Compare the 24 heures de le Mans to the 24 hours of le Mons, and tell me which race sounds like more fun.


----------



## CalypsoP35

SD,

Since you do not have to go out at a set time or in set conditions. Picking the best conditions for your boat is part of the game.

I still think you should add the PHRF rating to the database, even if you don't use them for anything, it would be fun fact for comparison purposes.


----------



## sailingdog

In that case, the "fair" assumptions go out the window... and planning what conditions under which you race is a critical part of your winning strategy... 


CalypsoP35 said:


> SD,
> 
> Since you do not have to go out at a set time or in set conditions. Picking the best conditions for your boat is part of the game.
> 
> I still think you should add the PHRF rating to the database, even if you don't use them for anything, it would be fun fact for comparison purposes.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay, let's start getting down to brass tacks. I need to get this database going.

Let's get the main fields worked out. Copy and paste what I have below and add, change and/or mark out as needed:

1. Yacht Name
•	S/V Whatever

2. Yacht Brand
•	Benehunterlina

3. Hull Number
•	1

4. LOA
•	30

5. Number of Crew
•	3

6. Category (one of the following - need help with this one)
•	XLR (over 40' racer)
•	XLC (over 40' cruiser)
•	LR (30' to 40' racer)
•	LC (30' to 30' cruiser)
•	MR (25' to 29' racer)
•	MC (25' to 29' cruiser)
•	SR (Under 25' racer)
•	SC (Under 25' cruiser)
•	LMH (30' to 40' multi)
•	MMH (25'-29' multi)
•	SMH (Under 25' multi)
•	OCWS (other crap with sails)

7. Course (selected from a list of available courses)
•	Body of Water
•	Long Course
•	Short Course

8. Date and Start Time of Entered Race

9. Beaufort Scale During Race
•	F10

10. Overall Race Time
•	01:01:01:01

11. GPS Track
•	Ideally we can provide downloadable tracks for each course. Then you can upload your track with it's time. I'll look into this. Will probably use GPX or something similar.

What else do we need as a basis?

As for the PHRF stuff, I agree that it might hold value for some. But I figure we want to keep this as dirty simple as possible. Then if people want to argue PHRF they have the info to do it on their own.


----------



## CalypsoP35

smackdaddy said:


> As for the PHRF stuff, I agree that it might hold value for some. But I figure we want to keep this as dirty simple as possible. Then if people want to argue PHRF they have the info to do it on their own.


Nobody can do it on their own if you don't include the PHRF rating in the database. Just add an input field for PHRF rating. Make it optional, but I think it would be fun to know and easy to include.

SD, you're making my point!


----------



## paulk

*It's obvious*

That in order to work properly, you simply need to get the Polars for every boat racing and program them. Then you feed in the reported windspeeds and directions, based on the orientation of the various triangles. The savvy guys would set up their course so they'd have one long starboard tack upwind (not too tight); a reach, then a gybe, and another a long tight reach back. After sending in the data, you wouldn't even really need to actually sail the course.


----------



## Stillraining

Im in...Put us down for the Head Sail only class....you know the one, feet on tiller, beer in hand class thinngy.


----------



## tdw

Stillraining said:


> Im in...Put us down for the Head Sail only class....you know the one, feet on tiller, beer in hand class thinngy.


In principle I'm with Still.

Then again as we'd be the only boat on Sydney Harbour cheating has got to be an option.

Hasn't it ?

Yeah.


----------



## sailingdog

Never trust an overgrown fuzzy rat... 



tdw said:


> In principle I'm with Still.
> 
> Then again as we'd be the only boat on Sydney Harbour *cheating has got to be an option.*
> 
> Hasn't it ?
> 
> Yeah.


----------



## tdw

sailingdog said:


> Never trust an overgrown fuzzy rat...


You're learning SD, you're learning.


----------



## JomsViking

*Endurance*

How about making it a tad more challenging, something like.

You have to race at least 200 NM, wind must be 20+ knots (in order to get the old shoes moving), and you must visit two ports or tidal creeks, all under sail (no engine at any point).

That would rid us of all the rating requirements, as the more extreme designs would fall for one of the criteria?

/Joms

Edit: I know this would require participants to be gentlemen, but?


----------



## lapworth

I hate to give Smack any more work but maybe you could try running this race like College Football. Now you would have total power you could place people in Div. 1,2,3,4.... then when they send in there reports you could say weather they beat a certian boat or not in the same conditions. At then end of the season you could Invite us to a " Bowl Boat Race " . Examples Chessy Bowl, Down Under Bowl, Lake Bowl...... The best part will be when monthly " Smack Ratings " Come out. Everyone will be able to arguee the ratings all month.


----------



## smackdaddy

Good ideas - keep them coming...

Here's what I'm thinking for course. There will be three; short, medium, and long to try to accommodate the various bodies of water. The idea is to make it something that anyone can go out and do on a day sail. That way more people will participate. Here are the course lengths:

Short: 2.5NM
Medium: 5NM
Long: 10NM

As an example, the Three Bridge Fiasco is 21NM. So this seems like a pretty good distance. Speak up if you disagree.

So, go ahead and layout your course for your body of water. The easiest way to do it is with Google Earth. Use the ruler function and lay it out in NM. Then when it's there, trace over that with the Add Path function. If you can't figure that out, just send me the coordinates of your marks and I'll do it for you.

And TD, cheat at your own peril, my friend.


----------



## smackdaddy

lapworth said:


> I hate to give Smack any more work but maybe you could try running this race like College Football. Now you would have total power you could place people in Div. 1,2,3,4.... then when they send in there reports you could say weather they beat a certian boat or not in the same conditions. At then end of the season you could Invite us to a " Bowl Boat Race " . Examples Chessy Bowl, Down Under Bowl, Lake Bowl...... The best part will be when monthly " Smack Ratings " Come out. Everyone will be able to arguee the ratings all month.


Dude, that sounds like the BCS. No way!

My ultimate goal is to start an international incident between two full-keelers.


----------



## lapworth

Exactly ! I go to Terp games all year if you had 60,000 people show up to one of your Bowls I think you would be the biggest thing that ever happend to sailing.


----------



## Ulladh

I favor Smacks original scheme.

Drop an the triangle down on your prefered body of water. Whatever combination of lenght of triangle sides and laps to produce an agreed course length.

Report your time and conditions then some one with more time than sense can work out what it all means.


----------



## lapworth

Could I just use the bouys in the bay example R2 , G1A, then G1? I cant get my charts there down at the boat and I am stuck in over 2' snow. I can give you the distance(when i get out) but it wont be an exact 2.5 nm. The good thing about it is everyone in my area would know the marks.


----------



## Ulladh

Anybody in the Philadelphia area ready to embarrass me on this 3 hour cruise. 

BFS Global Regatta Delaware River

Eddystone Power Station Crum Creek Pilot Dock 0.5nm southerly to 

Red 27 north of Chester Island in Eddystone Range
Then easterly Tinicum range south of Little Tinicum Island 5.0nm to

Yellow N “A” in Billingsport Range Anchorage
Then westerly Mifflin Bar Dike and north of Little Tinicum Island 5.0nm to

Point of Beginning Crum Creek Pilot dock

Distance approximate


----------



## smackdaddy

lapworth said:


> Could I just use the bouys in the bay example R2 , G1A, then G1? I cant get my charts there down at the boat and I am stuck in over 2' snow. I can give you the distance(when i get out) but it wont be an exact 2.5 nm. The good thing about it is everyone in my area would know the marks.


You can use buoys, but the distances *have to be exactly the same* for every course. Otherwise, we can't compete from course to course.

The cool thing is that everyone has to race without anyone else on the water knowing there's a course. It's stealth racing baby! So if there's no physical mark, that's all the better. Just GPS.

Also, I was thinking today. Conditions don't matter. It's all about the best time for the particular category of boat. It's up to you to go out when things will work in your favor. Remember, this is not a one off race.

This is going to rock!


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay, here are the courses for Lake Travis in Austin, TX. Just enter the coords into your GPS, hoist your sails, and get your game on!



















A couple of dicey shallow spots, but it should be fine. You Travis racers let me know if you have any gripes. Otherwise - this one's done.

Okay, you other chumps get your courses up. Let's GO!

PS - Any reason not to use decimal coords? That appears to be the format used in the GPX files - which we'll use on the website.


----------



## smackdaddy

Ulladh said:


> Anybody in the Philadelphia area ready to embarrass me on this 3 hour cruise.
> 
> BFS Global Regatta Delaware River
> 
> Eddystone Power Station Crum Creek Pilot Dock 0.5nm southerly to
> 
> Red 27 north of Chester Island in Eddystone Range
> Then easterly Tinicum range south of Little Tinicum Island 5.0nm to
> 
> Yellow N "A" in Billingsport Range Anchorage
> Then westerly Mifflin Bar Dike and north of Little Tinicum Island 5.0nm to
> 
> Point of Beginning Crum Creek Pilot dock
> 
> Distance approximate


Ulla - is this roughly what you're talking about? This is a 5nm course.


----------



## lapworth

That makes things easy. Well then I want first go at Ulladh. All I need to do is setup a 10.5 nm course? GAME ON!


----------



## smackdaddy

Actually here are the "official" course lengths:

Medium Course: 5nm
Long Course: 10nm

You're welcome, of course, to set up a longer one - but your times will probably be slower. heh-heh.


----------



## Ulladh

Revised Delaware River to fit 10nm
A 39-51'-25.02"N 75-19'-11.71"W (Crum Creek)
B 39-50'-40.37"N 75-20'-02.79"W (North East Chester Island)
C 39-51'-19.07"N 75-13'-48.00"W (Mantua Creek)

Lapworth the Game is On. I splash 3rd week of April.


----------



## Sanduskysailor

Absolutely the lamest idea on Sailnet. Too many variables to give any significant meaning to any result. Is current factored in? Who measures the wind speeds? Are they measured at the top of a 70' mast or at the top of a 20' mast. How do you make sure all the courses have the same amount of beating, reaches? What happens if the wind shifts 30 degrees on your course and not on some others??

Basically you plan is garbage in for the data and garbage out for the results.


----------



## smackdaddy

Sanduskysailor said:


> Absolutely the lamest idea on Sailnet. Too many variables to give any significant meaning to any result. Is current factored in? Who measures the wind speeds? Are they measured at the top of a 70' mast or at the top of a 20' mast. How do you make sure all the courses have the same amount of beating, reaches? What happens if the wind shifts 30 degrees on your course and not on some others??
> 
> Basically you plan is garbage in for the data and garbage out for the results.


Sandy, baby, absolutely the lamest post on Sailnet. But don't worry, it took a while for Dog to get it too.

You guys are too bound up in the trees of one-off style racing. You must relax your mind! And see the forest of the Global Regatta!

The beauty of it is that none of the variables you mention matter. All that matters is your time. Breathe deeply, and listen....

See, one can go out as many times as one would like, in whatever conditions he'd like, with whatever sails he'd like, all season long, to capture the best possible time he and his boat can throw down on the preset course. He gets to make that call! Not the race committee!

Furthermore, it's his own body of water. So if he's any good at all, he'll pick well and head out to the course in the best possible confluence of conditions for him and his boat. And, unless he's a complete dolt about sailing, he'll probably see a couple of other boats (like yours) on his course on that fine day - going for their times as well.

It's a fixed course. That's the great thing about it. Some days the conditions will favor some boats, other days others. But people can go out and give it a shot any time they want. And it all comes down to the fastest boat (in its category) around those mythical markers at the end of the year.

Where it WILL get sticky is comparing times from a medium course in SFB to a medium course in NYH - but that just means you guys need to pick smart courses to give yourselves the best possible shot. It's all about speed baby...and cunning...and a palatable lack of whining.

Garbage? Au Contraire, Mon Frère. Only if you sail that way.


----------



## lapworth

3rd week in april ? I will run my course before that because after April 15 its trophy season on the bay. My course will be near Thomas Point light house so I will be able to confirm winds with NOAA. I only have 3 sails and I might be solo if that gains any points in the BFS standings.


----------



## Ulladh

Lap

I was sailing your waters September last year, Thomas Point, Bloody Point and Eastern Bay. Small Craft Advisory one day, less than 5kn breeze the next.

The Delaware River is not in the same league, but with the right combination of wind direction and tidal current I will be competitive.

I shall also remove the garbage from my boat, it tends to accumulate, more garbage in than out.


----------



## smackdaddy

Ullah - here's your course as plotted from your coords:










Verify the coordinates as converted to decimal. And let me know if any tweaks need to be made.

I'll start a library of courses as people build them.


----------



## Ulladh

Smack
Coordinates confirmed, thanks.
Cross the shipping channel 4 times and brush mudflats at least 3 times, should be interesting.


----------



## smackdaddy

Sweet. Okay, who else wants to stake out a GR course?


----------



## PCP777

> Short Course: 2.5nm
> Medium Course: 5nm
> Long Course: 10nm
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe everyone should turn in times for all three courses, by simply making more roundings?
> 
> Unless you use class of boat, I'm not sure how you get around PRHF. When I get a GPS we can lay courses out for Hubbard.
Click to expand...


----------



## smackdaddy

PCP777 said:


> Short Course: 2.5nm
> Medium Course: 5nm
> Long Course: 10nm
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe everyone should turn in times for all three courses, by simply making more roundings?
> 
> Unless you use class of boat, I'm not sure how you get around PRHF. When I get a GPS we can lay courses out for Hubbard.
> 
> 
> 
> PCP - you can go ahead and use Google Earth to do it. That's what I used for the Travis courses.
> 
> Right now the boat classes are as follows (staying as broad as possible):
> 
> •	XLR (over 40' racer)
> •	XLC (over 40' cruiser)
> •	LR (30' to 40' racer)
> •	LC (30' to 30' cruiser)
> •	MR (25' to 29' racer)
> •	MC (25' to 29' cruiser)
> •	SR (Under 25' racer)
> •	SC (Under 25' cruiser)
> •	LMH (30' to 40' multi)
> •	MMH (25'-29' multi)
> •	SMH (Under 25' multi)
> •	OCWS (other crap with sails)
> 
> The only boats that I can see being hurt right now are full-keelers. For example, I'd call my C27 a MC - and I sure hope that I'd beat a full keeler of the same length. Should we add a 'Heavy Cruiser" category?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## PCP777

smackdaddy said:


> PCP777 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Short Course: 2.5nm
> Medium Course: 5nm
> Long Course: 10nm
> 
> PCP - you can go ahead and use Google Earth to do it. That's what I used for the Travis courses.
> 
> Right now the boat classes are as follows (staying as broad as possible):
> 
> •	XLR (over 40' racer)
> •	XLC (over 40' cruiser)
> •	LR (30' to 40' racer)
> •	LC (30' to 30' cruiser)
> •	MR (25' to 29' racer)
> •	MC (25' to 29' cruiser)
> •	SR (Under 25' racer)
> •	SC (Under 25' cruiser)
> •	LMH (30' to 40' multi)
> •	MMH (25'-29' multi)
> •	SMH (Under 25' multi)
> •	OCWS (other crap with sails)
> 
> The only boats that I can see being hurt right now are full-keelers. For example, I'd call my C27 a MC - and I sure hope that I'd beat a full keeler of the same length. Should we add a 'Heavy Cruiser" category?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, you and I fall into the same category and the only reason I might be able to keep up with you (I sail on a C 27 all the time) is because of my brand new bottom job.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## GeorgeB

You guys are making this way too complicated. I see Smack's regatta more like a "speed trial" (Think bicycles). That way, guys like Smack who may not have much of a chance to race and compare themselves to other boats, and will get a rough idea on how well they sail. (Plus, I think what Smack is really trying to do is compile a database of potential next boats.) So I say we all pick the "short course" and sail that. (But how about making it an integer, say, 3NM). By keeping it short, we are all pretty much using white sails. Rather than making the divisions length based, how about using PHRF divisions? (0 - 100, 101 -150, 151 - 200, +200). Using PHRF (and a 3 NM course). All what Smack has to do is multiply the person's PHRF number by 3 and subtract that (in seconds) from that person's time. What could be easier? And, besides, this gives the non-racers an introduction into our sport. No PHRF? No Problem. There a several PHRF data bases out there so, all you have to do is look your boat up. When in doubt, we can use the NORCAL PHRF data base and the multi's can use San Francisco BAMA's ratings. Boats smaller than 22' can use their Portsmouth rating. Basing the divisions on LOA only is kind of meaningless, I used to race on a 36 footer that had a 78 rating and my family station wagon, only two feet shorter, is a 147.

This should be a FUN kind of thing (Smack, no trophies!). If you have to keep score, score it so no boat finishes lower than third (like the Baja Ha, Ha). I'm a pretty serious racer, but I can assure you that I'm doing Smack's regatta as a double hand with Mrs. B. (and I'll probably have to come up with an excuse for why we are sailing in a circle). Let's keep it fun, simple, and short. Make it complicated, and no one will do it. Now, all I got to do is figure out how to make a serial interface work on my new computer and figure out how to get the old Garmin MAP software to run on Vista.


----------



## Ulladh

Any more contestants, I need something to distract me from the 28" of snow on ground and another 6" to 12" due Tuesday and Wednesday.

Just use google earth ruler function to make your course triangle, stretch or shrink to produce desired course length. Use "thumbtack" function to locate coordinates.


----------



## smackdaddy

GeorgeB said:


> You guys are making this way too complicated. I see Smack's regatta more like a "speed trial" (Think bicycles). That way, guys like Smack who may not have much of a chance to race and compare themselves to other boats, and will get a rough idea on how well they sail. (Plus, I think what Smack is really trying to do is compile a database of potential next boats.) So I say we all pick the "short course" and sail that. (But how about making it an integer, say, 3NM). By keeping it short, we are all pretty much using white sails. Rather than making the divisions length based, how about using PHRF divisions? (0 - 100, 101 -150, 151 - 200, +200). Using PHRF (and a 3 NM course). All what Smack has to do is multiply the person's PHRF number by 3 and subtract that (in seconds) from that person's time. What could be easier? And, besides, this gives the non-racers an introduction into our sport. No PHRF? No Problem. There a several PHRF data bases out there so, all you have to do is look your boat up. When in doubt, we can use the NORCAL PHRF data base and the multi's can use San Francisco BAMA's ratings. Boats smaller than 22' can use their Portsmouth rating. Basing the divisions on LOA only is kind of meaningless, I used to race on a 36 footer that had a 78 rating and my family station wagon, only two feet shorter, is a 147.
> 
> This should be a FUN kind of thing (Smack, no trophies!). If you have to keep score, score it so no boat finishes lower than third (like the Baja Ha, Ha). I'm a pretty serious racer, but I can assure you that I'm doing Smack's regatta as a double hand with Mrs. B. (and I'll probably have to come up with an excuse for why we are sailing in a circle). Let's keep it fun, simple, and short. Make it complicated, and no one will do it. Now, all I got to do is figure out how to make a serial interface work on my new computer and figure out how to get the old Garmin MAP software to run on Vista.


Fair enough. Hard to argue with serious racers. So, here's the revised breakdown...

Course Options:
•	Short Course - 5 nm
•	Long Course - 10 nm

As for the PHRF thing - the main issue I see, bearing in mind your edict of keeping it simple (which I totally agree with), the divisions you list would be a great solution...BUT then we have to get into Portsmouth, BAMA, lots of multiplication, etc. for each entry. And that's what we're trying to avoid.

I guess my thoughts are that experienced racers will know all that info from the boat make and LOA listed with each entry. But the beginners won't have to go track down a bunch of info to get started. Then they'll see lower PHRF-rated boats always beating the station wagons - and they'll start coming to SN and asking why. Nice learning opportunity.

That said, PHRF keeps coming up and I don't want to nix it without good reason. I'm just not seeing it as simpler than the LOA Racer/Cruiser breakdown.


----------



## Stillraining

GeorgeB said:


> You guys are making this way too complicated. I see Smack's regatta more like a "speed trial" (Think bicycles). That way, guys like Smack who may not have much of a chance to race and compare themselves to other boats, and will get a rough idea on how well they sail. (Plus, I think what Smack is really trying to do is compile a database of potential next boats.) So I say we all pick the "short course" and sail that. (But how about making it an integer, say, 3NM). By keeping it short, we are all pretty much using white sails. Rather than making the divisions length based, how about using PHRF divisions? (0 - 100, 101 -150, 151 - 200, +200). Using PHRF (and a 3 NM course). All what Smack has to do is multiply the person's PHRF number by 3 and subtract that (in seconds) from that person's time. What could be easier? And, besides, this gives the non-racers an introduction into our sport. No PHRF? No Problem. There a several PHRF data bases out there so, all you have to do is look your boat up. When in doubt, we can use the NORCAL PHRF data base and the multi's can use San Francisco BAMA's ratings. Boats smaller than 22' can use their Portsmouth rating. Basing the divisions on LOA only is kind of meaningless, I used to race on a 36 footer that had a 78 rating and my family station wagon, only two feet shorter, is a 147.


A bonny idea!!...sounds more fun as well...shoot I might hoist the main for that..


----------



## CalebD

The PHRF issue will not seemingly quietly 'go away' and if it takes GeorgeB (a serious racer) to hammer that point home then so be it. GeorgeB is also advocating not using spinnakers by only using _"white sails"_ which further uncomplicates the matter. The KISS principle is great and good principle to stick to but many more people will be interested in this idea if there is an element of fairness.
I could take my Lightning out and fly a 5 nm course with the spinnaker and cover it on one down wind tack in under 30 minutes if the wind were good (no triangle but a straight course). Can your boat plane at 10+ knots and do you want to compare that to your keel boat? If you want maximum knot speeds you need look no further then 1 Class racers, catamarans and multis. If you want racers to be at all interested in this idea then at least include the PHRF rating as it is as easy as GeargeB indicates it is to apply to get a 'corrected time'. 
Even my old shoe Tartan 27' will do well against many fin keel boats in a beam reach race but none of those boats can get up on a plane.
OCWS - indeed and shame on you.


----------



## zz4gta

hmmm, this sounds like utter ridonkulousness. It will essentially prove nothing at all about the boats or skippers, just too many variables. But what the hell, I'm in. Can I barrow someone's GPS? 

And I don't think 2 or 3 nm course is too short. Typical buoy races on the bay only have 1nm legs. So it's a short beat, set run douse, short beat, set run finish. 4nm total, and that can honestly seem like an eternity at times.


----------



## smackdaddy

lporcano said:


> When I first read this, I thought "wtf, this is stupid". However now after thinking about it some, I think "wtf, this is stupid but it could be fun and it might work".


Yeah - that's the way history-changing ideas are usually perceived. Heh-heh.

As for the categories and PHRF, it looks like the tribe has spoken. So in the next couple of days, I'll put up a "rules" page on the bfsshop.com site and we'll get it nailed down.

porc - I appreciate the offer of assistance on the server-side programming. PM me and let's talk. I've got my guys working on it now, with integration of the GPX/KML files into embedded Google Earth via a parser, but could definitely use some ideas and assistance.

In the mean time - keep those courses coming!

PS - Somebody give me a link to a good PHRF resource.


----------



## Ulladh

Found my "portsmouth" number from German Sailing Association, DSV 2010 Yardstick for Havsfidra 20 is 130

http://www.kreuzer-abteilung.org/Public_PDF/5406.PDF

Easy number to find and use.


----------



## smackdaddy

Cool. So does that rating fit within the general PHRF divisions George laid out above? I'd like to get us to one set of numbers like he's laid out.

From what I read, the Portsmouth ratings are a little more favorable to crusing boats than PHRF since PHRF assumes every boat is stripped down and race-ready. But I want to make sure the divisions are as equitable as possible (e.g. - 0-100, 101-150, etc.)


----------



## tonybinTX

Smack - how about a category - BOFFA (Big Old F***ing Fat As$) boat, not captain. Sorry I'm getting in late on the thread. I like the idea.

Your marks for Travis are good, but only if you keep your boat near the basin. It'll take me 2.5 hours on a good day to get up there. Why not use the channel markers? Use any channel markers you like?


----------



## smackdaddy

tonybinTX said:


> Smack - how about a category - BOFFA (Big Old F***ing Fat As$) boat, not captain. Sorry I'm getting in late on the thread. I like the idea.
> 
> Your marks for Travis are good, but only if you keep your boat near the basin. It'll take me 2.5 hours on a good day to get up there. Why not use the channel markers? Use any channel markers you like?


I like the BOFFA. As a matter of fact, I own one. And mine has a beard on its bottom!

As for the courses, they have to be nailed down. I know it's not convenient for everyone - but it is what it is.

Trust me, it'll be the best 2.5 hours of your life when you grab the GR glory in your BOFFA!

I'm just loving the idea of all these underground, stealth races that will be happening all year long in various places. That will be very cool. And it will be ultra cool if you're out running the course and notice another boat doing the same...both of you on an "unmarked" course.


----------



## Ulladh

Smack
Portsmouth and PHRF values appear to be similar for similar boats but PHRF has a regional variation.
My boat does not have a comparable PHRF.


----------



## smackdaddy

Jeez, no wonder nobody likes match racing!

So George, in trying to keep it as simple and general as possible, what do you suggest? Portsmouth only?

Check out this page:

Portsmouth Tables 2008


----------



## Ajax_MD

I recently researched my PHRF for my area. It's around 246. I think that falls into the "Why bother?" category.


----------



## GeorgeB

Keep it simple. PHRF uses a regression formula based on your boat's principal dimensions. It is "race ready" insomuch that it does not handicap for things like BBQ's and extra crap. We all sail with extra crap, so deal with it. Use PHRF for all displacement boats over 20 - 22 feet. The little guys like West Wright Potters, Finns and such, use Portsmouth which, on this side of the pond, is predominantly used for these little boats. The whole point of PHRF is to use a common yardstick. Besides, PHRF is the way things are done in the YRA so why not learn a little bit about it know. Who knows? Someday you might actually want to join in a race and not merely watch it from afar. 

Don't go down the rabbit hole of making "race" and "cruising" classes as that determination becomes a "beauty contest" as one man's cruiser is another man's racer. Keep it simple.

I'm liking the short course more and more as it is relatively quick and it minimizes things like current effects and interference from other boats. I also like the idea that it minimizes the use (or the effect) of spinnakers. Remember, this is a "fun" "time trial", not a serious race.


<OI see the biggest challenge in this thing is to round marks that only appear as pixels on a screen. So this becomes a navigation/helming challenge as well as a test of boat speed. The next biggest challenge is for me to take a detour and draw a 5NM triangle in the middle of the Bay and convince Mrs. B that I'm not secretly racing.

Here is the URL for the PHRF database here in San Francisco/ NorCal</O
http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/ncphrf_baserates.pdf


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - then with the feedback I've gotten here, take a look at the "sign up page":

BFS Global Regatta

I've used your basic division categorizations George, with a break out for Multis, Under 20' boats, and windsurfers. Does this cover us for now?

(The forms, etc. don't work yet, I'm just trying to nail down the pieces so we can build out the databases. So this is all just roughed out right now.)

Also, take a look at the "Rules" page and let's nail this down.

Finally, we're working on Google Earth integration. See the "Courses" page and click on the Austin course (you'll need to download the GE plugin). We'll use this technology to plot courses - and overlay your GPS data from your race. Should be pretty cool.

This is kind of fun!


----------



## GeorgeB

I'm for keeping it simple. I understand PHRF. I know that my boat is 147 seconds per NM and a J105 is 72 seconds. Therefore he is 75 seconds/mile faster (and I have to finish within 375 seconds of him on our 5NM course to prevail). Portsmouth just isn't used much. When you look at the supporting clubs, they are mostly lake and reservoir or Hobie cat clubs. Their "Ocean" list isn't that exhaustive and it doesn't distinguish between design changes within a single type (example, tall rigs). The other thing is it is a "time on time" calculation that really becomes more dependant upon the local conditions at the time of the race and not the 5 or 10NM parameters we're thinking of.

I still say use PHRF for the vast majority of us displacement boat guys. Use the Portsmouth centerboard rating for the "little" guys, and because their rating is so much different, you have a little guy class. I personally like the BAMA ratings for multihullers as I participate in some of their races and they most likely have a listing for a larger Cat. Again, multihullers are way different than monohullers and out here, they race in their own division.

<OBubble head, no worries, your 246 rating puts you in with your brethren. And it doesn't inadvertently put you in with say, a <ST1Capri 25 (168 rating). Besides, it is not so much what your number is, it is how well you sail to your number. 

<OUlladh, check the NorCal listing, If you don't see your boat there, tell me what your boat is. (I will be asking for LOA, LWL, displacement, ballast etc. to calculate your number.)

BAMA's Ratings 
2010 BAMA Ratings - January 28


----------



## smackdaddy

lporcano said:


> So basically the race rewards insanity, which makes sense since the race is basically a crazy idea.
> 
> I can see myself shredding a few chutes in this competition.


That's the spirit porc!


----------



## Ulladh

GeorgeB
Thanks for the help with PHRF;

Havsfidra 20

LWL 16'-5"
LOA 20'-0"
Beam 7'-5"
Draft 3'-6"
Displacement 2,970 lbs
Ballast 1,100 lbs
I = 24'-0"
J = 7'-6"
P = 21'-0"
E = 9'-0"

I could run with the 20ft and under, but would like to play with PHRF crowd.


----------



## GeorgeB

Ulladh,
My excel spreadsheet that does the calculation is at home so please be patient for a day. Yes, as a displacement boat I can plug your numbers into the formula and get you a rating. Out here, we have more than a couple twenty footers that run with us "big dogs". I regularly race a Cal 20 (named "Can O' Whoop Ass"). Ultimate 20s and Whylie Rabbits are other notable 20 footers on the Bay.

Where are you from? I'm guessing somewhere in Scandinavia - is it Finland?


----------



## Ulladh

George
The boats from Sweden. I'm from Ireland currenty in Philadelphia.
Ulladh sounds Scandinavian but it is the Gaelic name for my province.


----------



## Ulladh

Smack
Nice BFS Global Regatta site.
I selected my course to fit my draft, if one course for each body of water then I need to revise. The mark near Chester Island is good for me but not anyone with more than 5ft draft and if over-shot rapidy shallows to 2ft.

Please change marks to; 
A 39.85695 -75.32000 Crum Creek
B 39.84734 -75.34305 Ridley Creek G"1E"
C 39.85417 -75.23648 Mantua Creek

This course produces at least 9ft at low tide;


----------



## nissantwa

*big freakin regatta*

Trouble is you'd get a couple of barnacles who'd smoke the course runnin' a'fore a sou'easter in a tri-foil Moth and claim the title. Then the other Tars, being enthusiastic, and tolerable good liars to boot, would claim better times and better speeds while 'longside the dock tapppin' on their lap-tops. The only solution would be severe penalty for cheatin', yarnin', truth stretchin or contrary gossip. Offenders would be hove to outside the 3 mile limit or made fast to a lightship and told to ship oars so that ordinary river scum and ripple riders have a chance to blow round' the course and fetch home a'fore 8 bells. Non sailors could simply watch other boats on similar courses and submit those times as their own. So what's the prize?


----------



## smackdaddy

nis - that's where the GPS comes in. Your tracks tell the story. Yes - still possible to cheat - but the community, you leading it with pitchfork in hand, will call BS as it's meant to be called.

Prize? How about we make it the same amount as the VOR cash prize?

ulla: I'll make the mark changes ASAP. Actually this will be another interesting aspect of the race. You need GPS, navigation, and charting skills. It really will be an all encompassing race.


----------



## GeorgeB

Ulladh,

I ran the numbers for your Havsfidra 20 and I calculate a 269 PHRF rating. It is based on a calculated sail area (100% fore triangle) of 184.5 square feet. If you have a better sail area number I'll plug that in. Your number fits right in with the Cal 20 (270) and Catalina 22 (261 for a fin keel model). An Ultimate 20, on the other hand, rates a 141 (which is even lower than my 34 footer!)<O


----------



## Ulladh

GeorgeB
Thank you. My mainsail dimension matches the Catalina 22 (from FX Sails), the jib is smaller than the Catalina 22.


----------



## smackdaddy

So far we have courses for Texas and Philadelphia. The rest of the world should be especially embarrassed.

I mean Australia taught the world to sail - and they've got squat!! Come on lads! Where are your marks?


----------



## Maverick1958

Smack you could lengthen the course some by sailing past Hippy Hollow...


----------



## smackdaddy

Most of the time it's just fat old dudes. No thanks. Only on memorial day will the nubiles show en force. Until then I race. 

Now design a course dammit!


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay ulla - the Philly course has been updated with correct coords on the website. And I've worked out a better way to use Google Maps. So we're making good progress.

So I think GeorgeB and PCP777 are working on courses for their areas. How about you Chessie racers? Who's going to lay those out? (JRP, Jeff)?

And what about you Aussies? TDW, what can you do for Sydney? Anyone in the UK? The Med? Carib?

Right now Texas and Pennsylvania are leading the charge.

Finally, let me know if anything else needs to be added for the sign up form on the home page. That is - what other info do we need from racers to keep track of them?

After that, I'll mock up the race info form so we'll know what details we'll need for each race - and how that will work.


----------



## Maverick1958

So Smack when do you want to do the Lake Travis regatta? I can trailer up there for the race.

Maverick


----------



## smackdaddy

The beauty of the GR is that there's no set time. You can go out and run the course whenever you want - as many times as you want to get the fastest time. And you can do it either as a group or by yourself.

So - I'm just going to wait for warmer weather and stiffer breezes - then I'm going to go out A LOT. It'll be really cool if I see other boats out there running the same "underground" course.

Kind of like "Fight Club for Racers".

Why don't you set up a course for the Houston area, Mav?


----------



## Ulladh

Thanks for the course update Smack
For all sailors stuck is snow and ice, what else have you to do this afternoon.
Draw a triangle in the waters you already know with Google Maps ruler function, move the corners around until you get a 5nm or 10nm course. Then use the thumb tack function to get coordinates for your marks.


----------



## JomsViking

The problem might be that PHRF are a North American thing, and means Jack Sh.. to the rest of the world. We need a different handicap rule for this to work.
Apparently noone liked the idea of a more challenging race (see earlier post) but something along those lines would allow us to do this without ratings?



smackdaddy said:


> So far we have courses for Texas and Philadelphia. The rest of the world should be especially embarrassed.
> 
> I mean Australia taught the world to sail - and they've got squat!! Come on lads! Where are your marks?


----------



## smackdaddy

Joms - I agree with you on the problems with PHRF. And, being that it is a N. American standard - I totally understand people in other countries not wanting to go with it. On the other hand, I do agree with George that using PHRF broadly here makes it easier and more accurate than what I'd originally proposed (LOA and cruiser/racer designation). 

I think our main objective here is to make this thing global. I'd love to be racing "against" dudes in Lake Geneva or The North Sea. That's what's so appealing. So I'm wide open to any suggestions on how to categorize the boats. 

The issue with what you proposed earlier is that it goes against the "time trial" nature of the race. The key here is that people can go out any time they want and just go for their best time around the track. I think that is what will draw more daysailors, etc. into it just for fun. The key is to keep it as loose, easy, and informal as possible.


----------



## Ulladh

Rating system suggestion.
Smack has 4 groups Sail A through D based on where the boat fits into PHRF.
Use the rating system common to your region and divide into 4 groups.


----------



## bljones

Leave it to a bunch of sailors to overcomplicate a pure, simple, fun concept. 


Blondie Hasler had it right:
"..fainthearted amendments originate from members who do not wish race to be held at all and will not enter if it is. Kindly have them assassinated and send the bill to me."


----------



## Ulladh

bljones
Just layout your course.
I know I am not going to place with the top of the pack by whatever rating system is eventualy used but it is a way of comparing my sailing skills with what I hope are my peers, and maybe learning how to be better.


----------



## smackdaddy

hey porc, put the coords in your marks if you don't mind and I'll add it to the website.

Go the PA!


----------



## GeorgeB

Guys, Guys, Guys,

Make it easy. If you have a certificate, race that. No certificate, look up the base rating for your boat on your local YRA website. Nothing there? Use the SF - NorCal Base PHRF numbers (they have an amazing number of boats in their listing.) Still not there? Post your I, J, P, E, dimensions, Displacement, LWL draft, and sail area w/100% foretriangle and I'll plug it into my PHRF regression formula. If you're some sort of Euro or Aussie guy who uses metrics, convert it to feet and pounds (using decimals instead of inches or ounces). Still having problems? Here's the regression formula, so calculate your own rating.

R' = 610-8.36*(SA/Disp^.333)+0.0000511*(SA^2)-55*(P/(J+E)) -30.8*(LWL^.5)-602*(DR^2/SA)

<OSo now I have to draw an official course for San Francisco Bay. Do you Bay Area sailors have a preference? My thought was to draw it out in the "slot" so we can all brag about sailing in 20+ kt breezes. I'm also thinking of positioning it somewhat in the cone of <ST1Alcatraz </ST1so we won't get "knocked" too badly if there is a flood going on (we're screwed if it's an ebb). So, this course is convenient for us in the City or the East <ST1Bay</ST1. The <ST1<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com







San Francisco Bay? </ST1







East</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st=" /><st1laceName w:st="on">Marin</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st="on">County </st1laceType></ST1folks might want to draw theirs near Little Harding, But frankly, I don't think there is any current relief there. <ST1<st1laceName w:st="on">South</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st="on">Bay </st1laceType></ST1folks - Again, current is a problem if you play in the San Bruno Gap, unless you are bold enough to map the course over the San Bruno Shoal.

http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/ncphrf_baserates.pdf


----------



## Ulladh

Thats a very generous offer from GeorgeB. If you don't have a PHRF get one and we can compare apples to apples. Course conditions are still a variable but we have all year to select the best.

Lake Wallenpaupack is nice location Porc. I have sailed out of Lighthouse Harbor on other peoples boats.


----------



## smackdaddy

lporcano said:


> Here is my course.
> 
> Paupack course - Google Maps
> 
> I think that puts PA in the lead, right? We should have an award for the state with the most participation as well.


Okay porc, you're in. I tied it to Scranton on the site if that's cool (to keep things tied to bigger cities).

Also, I had to move the far mark a bit to make it 5 _nautical_ miles (as opposed to 5 miles). So make sure it's still cool.

Everyone should probably use Google Earth (the Ruler tool) to lay out the courses since you can select nautical miles as a unit. Maps doesn't give you that option that I know of. And make sure to include your coordinates (in decimal) for each mark.

We wouldn't want you PA dudes sailing "5 mile" courses that are really on 4.3 or so. Heh-heh.


----------



## JomsViking

Easy is nice, it is the PHRF that is complicating it (for those of us outside the US).
1. A certificate wont help, as e.g. IRC rating does not translate to PHRF as I see it?
2. It seems you guys are changing PHRF based on region, and that the calculation gives the basis rate? (+ my boat is also modified a lot, so much that I would feel like cheating using the PHRF)

So while I find the idea nice (although 5 miles way to short and boring), I still think we need to come up with some kind of criteria that would rid us of traditonal ratings? Or we could all use IRC ratings 

So if the scheme used a number of 'gates' or 'filters' that required a little more seamanship than beercan racing, and forced you to be out for a longer time, I think that would make us all more even, without a rating?



GeorgeB said:


> Guys, Guys, Guys,
> 
> Make it easy. If you have a certificate, race that. No certificate, look up the base rating for your boat on your local YRA website. Nothing there? Use the SF - NorCal Base PHRF numbers (they have an amazing number of boats in their listing.) Still not there? Post your I, J, P, E, dimensions, Displacement, LWL draft, and sail area w/100% foretriangle and I'll plug it into my PHRF regression formula. If you're some sort of Euro or Aussie guy who uses metrics, convert it to feet and pounds (using decimals instead of inches or ounces). Still having problems? Here's the regression formula, so calculate your own rating.
> 
> R' = 610-8.36*(SA/Disp^.333)+0.0000511*(SA^2)-55*(P/(J+E)) -30.8*(LWL^.5)-602*(DR^2/SA)
> 
> <OSo now I have to draw an official course for San Francisco Bay. Do you Bay Area sailors have a preference? My thought was to draw it out in the "slot" so we can all brag about sailing in 20+ kt breezes. I'm also thinking of positioning it somewhat in the cone of <ST1Alcatraz </ST1so we won't get "knocked" too badly if there is a flood going on (we're screwed if it's an ebb). So, this course is convenient for us in the City or the East <ST1Bay</ST1. The <ST1<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Francisco Bay? </ST1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> East</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st=" /><st1laceName w:st="on">Marin</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st="on">County </st1laceType></ST1folks might want to draw theirs near Little Harding, But frankly, I don't think there is any current relief there. <ST1<st1laceName w:st="on">South</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st="on">Bay </st1laceType></ST1folks - Again, current is a problem if you play in the San Bruno Gap, unless you are bold enough to map the course over the San Bruno Shoal.
> 
> http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/ncphrf_baserates.pdf


----------



## smackdaddy

JomsViking said:


> Easy is nice, it is the PHRF that is complicating it (for those of us outside the US).
> 1. A certificate wont help, as e.g. IRC rating does not translate to PHRF as I see it?
> 2. It seems you guys are changing PHRF based on region, and that the calculation gives the basis rate? (+ my boat is also modified a lot, so much that I would feel like cheating using the PHRF)
> 
> So while I find the idea nice (although 5 miles way to short and boring), I still think we need to come up with some kind of criteria that would rid us of traditonal ratings? Or we could all use IRC ratings
> 
> So if the scheme used a number of 'gates' or 'filters' that required a little more seamanship than beercan racing, and forced you to be out for a longer time, I think that would make us all more even, without a rating?


But if we did what you're advocating in the last paragraph that would exclude the majority of sailors out there. What we're trying to do here is get the most possible people racing their boats for fun (a la the Three Bridge Fiasco). The more rules, gates, and filters we put up - the fewer will participate. All you have to do is look at match racing to confirm that. As to the distance, if 5 is too short, do 10! See, it's easy! Again, this needs to be set up so that a daysailor can go run a course a couple of times during her sail - then still have time for beers and pork rinds.

As for the ratings - no certificates required. We're far too unorganized for that. As far as I'm concerned, just see where your boat brand/name falls in the pdf George supplied and use that number (mine's 198, and that puts me in the "Sail C" division, or PHRF 151-200). It's pretty simple.

Now, let's say you're in the same division, but you've modified your boat. That's fine with me. You're going to go faster. And I'm going to ask you how you did it. I'm going to learn what modifications make the difference. I'm going to learn. And in the mean time, I'm going to be out racing - not doing math.

So don't worry about it. This is all for fun. That said, you experienced racers are welcome to form sub-groups who take it more seriously and argue all day long over ratings, penalties, tumblehome, and pinched transoms.

Now how about designing a 10 nm course, Joms? C'mon. Have some fun.


----------



## JomsViking

Smacko,
Maybe I just don't understand the concept - thanks for the clarification, though...

I'll have to think, not really nice


----------



## GeorgeB

Joms,

Rather than cast dispersions on PHRF as a way of comparing boats, how about we work up your numbers just for fun? What type of boat do you have? Please supply me with your dimensional data and calculate your base number. Then we will go from there. I do have a little experience in the measuring area (former chief measurer for the Catalina 34 International Association), so I'd be happy to work out any adjustments we both deem necessary. Unfortunately, I have no experience in IRC measuring (Apparently, they either don't race C34s overseas or they never needed my help.) For fun, (after all this is a "fun regatta") we can calculate IRC ratings and as you appear to be an advocate, can you be in charge of calculating these numbers? What type of information do you need from me to calculate the number for my boat

Remember that this is just a fun way of seeing what our boats do and comparing our different class boats stack up against each other. PHRF is being used as way to group our boats into classes (divisions). You turn in your "slug trail" and actual elapsed time which is an indication of how fast your boat design is. Multiply your PHRF number by the course miles (the 5 or 10, not your actual sailed miles), then subtract this number (in seconds) from your elapsed time. This will give you your corrected time. Corrected time will give you an indication on how well you sail as compared to other skippers. Is this a perfect method of scoring? Hardly, but is any handicapping method perfect?

<OI like the idea of using PHRF mainly because the vast majority of boats in smack's regatta use it, and besides, I understand it well enough to make it work for Smack's application. Deep down, PHRF is the formula I posted earlier. Because regional conditions and the types of boats raced vary greatly from one region to the next, local committees are empowered to adjust the ratings to fit their local situation. They mostly add time to heavier boats in locals that have lighter wind conditions. Out here in NorCal the winds are fairly stiff so there are no real adjustments to the numbers for our production boats. When they do make adjustments, it is in 3 second increments. Production boats get only minor adjustments like 3 seconds added for a fixed bladed prop. (but oddly, no adjustment for roller furling). If you have a custom made boat, the measuring for PHRF gets more complicated. But if you own a sled, you really should be on Sailing Anarchy and not playing in Smack's pond.


----------



## timebandit

Smack,

Where did the KISS principal go?

How about just racing the corse clock wise and then round the start/finish mark and race the corse counter clock wise?

The difference is your score.

Slow boat aginst slow boat, fast aginst fast, all racers equal because you race yourself.

Any advantage one way is a hinder the other way.

Just a thought.


----------



## Ulladh

Timebandit
We would still need a system for defining slow boat or fast boat.
PHRF under 100 is fast over 200 is slow, Smack has 4 groups A through D fast to slow based on PHRF number.


----------



## GeorgeB

???

Timebandit, how do you score this and what does the number tell you? If a person, hypothetically, did both circuits at the exact same time, is this good or bad? What if the delta is large, like an hour or more? Are you thinking along the lines of a predicted log race like the power boaters do?

Smack, I commend you. You are one of the sparks that keeps me coming back to this message board. Keep up the good work. I'll draw my SF Bay course over the weekend on the chart plotter, but I not sure we'll sail it as MrsB has been jones'n for a sail real bad, and as you may know, she hates racing.


----------



## smackdaddy

Heh-heh. The Kiss Principal? Right here baby...










Honestly, I think we've set up the simplest race imaginable. The critical element people seem to be having trouble with is that it's NOT a single day event.

The courses are ALWAYS out there. And you alone, you with a group of other boats, whatever can go out all year long, as many times as you want, and run them in whatever direction you want. And you have a full year to pull down your best time on the course you know so well.

All we're doing is looking for the fastest times around those marks. Period.

Then we use the very broad categories to see who's doing the best in those categories on a particular course. Then we compare those sailors against the same-division dudes in Norway who seem to be smoking the guys in PA. Everyone starts arguing as to why - and it becomes an international incident.

What could be simpler?


----------



## sailingdog

And your wife will kill you in your sleep, so you won't actually be finishing a race... 



lporcano said:


> That is just not going to happen. I am ordering my carbon spars, 3DLs, oversized bowsprit for the new asym, and new keel right now.


----------



## smackdaddy

Yo Dog...where is your course, dude? You should be leading the way for the multis!


----------



## timebandit

Closest to 0.

Since you are racing your own boat, your own skils and the course is changing.

If you don't sanbag or look at the clock I think you might find it more difficult than you think.


----------



## Ulladh

Timebandit
Boat is competing against others by PHRF, sailing skill is a variable including selecting optimal wind and tide/current, course is fixed by three marks.

Repeat as many times as you want, until you have wrung the best possible time from the course, your boat and your skills.

The competition is sailing skills, and the potential benifit is to learn from others.


----------



## timebandit

That is what I call pratice or bench racing.

Racing is a dynamic thing. You get one chance to put it alltogether with no do overs.

I agree that sailing has a lot of variables But there are a couple that you are leaving out.

Lots of other boats that you have to dodge on the start.

Boats the blanket your air.

Boats that pinch you at the mark.

Boats that cause you to change your tack because you are the burdended boat.

Things that break or become tangled or ripped.

Sailing in dirty air.

Personally I think PHRF racing is just racing aginst yourself.

If you are going to handicap the race then let the slower boats start with their handicap first so that the finish will be exciting, first boat over the finish line wins.

Just imagine a finish that might have 99% of the racers at the finish line at the same time and no big bunch up at the start.

Even if you start in the middle you will still be at the finish line with all the other boats trying to get that last bit of speed to cross the line first.

The slower boats would get a chance to see the faster boats sail as they near the finish line instead of watching them sail away only to be seen again at the dock.

As a racers what is more fun that passing other racers?

The world cruisers in their fat assed boat blowing on their sails as that 100 ft. tri Americas Cup boat is comming up fast, now that would be a sight to see.



Ulladh said:


> Timebandit
> Boat is competing against others by PHRF, sailing skill is a variable including selecting optimal wind and tide/current, course is fixed by three marks.
> 
> Repeat as many times as you want, until you have wrung the best possible time from the course, your boat and your skills.
> 
> The competition is sailing skills, and the potential benifit is to learn from others.


----------



## Ulladh

Timebandit
What you are describing is more interesting and challenging competition, but the Global Regatta is a simpler concept that requires minimal organization at a local level and very few entry requirements. Just you, your, boat and your course.
Why not hold the competition you describe on a Global Regatta course, and post the results.


----------



## smackdaddy

Ulladh said:


> Timebandit
> What you are describing is more interesting and challenging competition, but the Global Regatta is a simpler concept that requires minimal organization at a local level and very few entry requirements. Just you, your, boat and your course.
> Why not hold the competition you describe on a Global Regatta course, and post the results.


You nailed it Ulla.

Time, he's right about holding your competition on a GR course of your choosing. It would be great to see a group of boats racing together around an "invisible" course. Heck - some of them might even to choose to race in one direction while the others choose the opposite (like the TBF race).

Another cool aspect to this is boat traffic. Because there is no physically marked course, you have to deal with whatever is "on that course" during the race.

The more we talk about it, the more it becomes evident that this type of race will test just about every sailing skill there is (chart reading, GPS navigation, rules of the road, tides, currents, wind and sea conditions, you name it). Pretty cool if you ask me.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay, so now that we've pretty much settled the "sign up" info including the yacht divisions, let's figure out what info each racer will need to provide for each race. 

First, here's what we'll already have from the racer's account:

1. Yacht Name
2. Yacht Brand
3. Yacht Division (PHRF range)
4. Hull/Sail Number
5. Racing Area (New York, Philadelphia, Denmark, Syndey, whatever)

Here's the additional info I'm thinking we'll need for each race submission:

1. Date and time of race
2. GR course (from a pull down on the site)
3. Overall time (which will be confirmed by the GPX/KML)
4. GPX/KML file (Either from a hosted location tied to your GPS service or emailed to us. We'll look into a direct upload of the file into our database as well.)
5. Wind speed during race (prevailing and max)
6. Sea state during your race (waves, current, etc.)
7. Comments (any additional info you want to reveal about the race)

Does this give us enough info for equitable standings? What else needs to be there?

From here, guys could drill down amongst each other for specific PHRF ratings, sail configurations, mods, etc. of the winning boats. It's not all necessarily listed in the above info (which is intended to be general and easily understood) - but it's there for people to fight over if they want.

Also, with the above info, I think we'd have enough to generally compare times from course-to-course based on conditions.

Let me know what you guys think.


----------



## lapworth

Does this work for my 10nm course.

A 38.514361 - 76.291147
B 38.501362 - 76.242645
c 38.521256 - 76.235480


----------



## smackdaddy

I'll put it in lap - and we'll see what we get.


----------



## Ulladh

Smack
Only thing I would add, in comments a suggestion to give a report including photgraphs, short video and short narrative, which could be a link to the sailors blog or website.


----------



## smackdaddy

Great idea Ulla. Done.


----------



## smackdaddy

How to lay out your course:

The easiest way to do this is use Google Earth (you can also use Google Maps - but it's not as straight forward). Here are the steps:

1. Open Google Earth.
2. Zoom to your area.
3. Click on the "Ruler" icon at the top of the page.
4. Select "Path" - and make sure your units are set to "Nautical Miles".
5. Create a triangle for the course you are designing. You'll actually need to put in 4 points as the endpoints of the triangle can't connect. Just get them close.
6. Look at the overall length of the course - and start moving the marks around as needed to get the 5 nm or 10 nm course.
7. Make sure your course is as safe as it can be (traffic, water depth, currents, etc.).
8. Once the course is nailed down, go under "Preferences" (top pull-down menu) and make sure the Lat/Long units are set to "Decimal Degrees".
9. Zoom into each mark, hover your cursor over the mark and write down the Lat/Long coords for that mark.
10. Let me know what those coords are, which city your course is closest to, which body of water it's on, and I'll get it into the GR database.


----------



## smackdaddy

lapworth said:


> Does this work for my 10nm course.
> 
> A 38.514361 - 76.291147
> B 38.501362 - 76.242645
> c 38.521256 - 76.235480


Dude, check those coords. That course (between marks B and C) is going to be hard on your bottom job. Heh-heh.

Will this be the "Cambridge-MD/Chesapeake-Bay Long Course"? (We need to tie each set of courses to a City/Body-Of-Water combo so that there's only one set of courses for each immediate area).


----------



## lapworth

I did a double check
Cords 

C = 38.521256 -76.235480 ( puts me just passed "86" FL R )
B = 38.501362 -76.242645 ( puts me west of Bloody Point)
Almost all of this leg is in the shipping channel ? If Royal Carribean can make it I hope I can.

I would like to change coordinate A to 38.51966 - 76 29.199

I can cut the shoal but bigger boats cant , I thought these where our own private courses.


----------



## smackdaddy

Lap - I think I'm doing something wrong then. Here's what I get in Google Earth (and Maps) when I input your Mark C coords: 38.521256, -76.235480










Let me know what I'm doing wrong.

Each sailor is designing the course(s) for their own City/Body-of-Water combo. You guys know your own waters better than anyone else out there. It will be THE course for your area.

The courses obviously need to be as accessible and safe as possible - yet it's always up to each sailor to determine if that course works for them and their boat before sailing it.


----------



## lapworth

I get the same thing when I use google earth ????? If you drop a pin on that same spot you get different lats & long 38.311652-76.14773. not sure why but when I use Charts and Gps they match and thats what I will be using on the water. I also cant figure out how to make a triangle that will give distance on all three sides.


----------



## Stillraining

Wait!...Im having similar difficulty....

I can not locate 3 pubs exactly 5 or 10 NM apart and they wont allow me to move them...is there some PHRF ruling for seconds subtracted from your time in this case for going the extra distance?


----------



## smackdaddy

Stillraining said:


> Wait!...Im having similar difficulty....
> 
> I can not locate 3 pubs exactly 5 or 10 NM apart and they wont allow me to move them...is there some PHRF ruling for seconds subtracted from your time in this case for going the extra distance?


Good lord, it's like herding cats here.


----------



## smackdaddy

lapworth said:


> I get the same thing when I use google earth ????? If you drop a pin on that same spot you get different lats & long 38.311652-76.14773. not sure why but when I use Charts and Gps they match and thats what I will be using on the water. I also cant figure out how to make a triangle that will give distance on all three sides.


Here's a run through of how I did it using Google Earth:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/61800-global-big-freakin-regatta-possible-14.html#post570686

I put the Mark Coords for Lake Travis into my GPS and they worked great.

I am very interested though in why this wouldn't be lining up on your charts. Anyone know what's going on?


----------



## Ulladh

Folks this is not that difficult use. Google Earth, zoom to your location, set "view" to "grid", the ruler function set on "path" and units to "nautical miles".

Place your first point then click the 2nd mark then place your 3rd mark, then the 4th mark just short of the first. Zoom in then drag the third point close to the first.
Assuming your 1st is a keeper, drag the 2nd or 3rd until the path distance is 5nm or 10nm.
Leave the ruler box open then go to the "thumb tack", zoom in to the marks and center the cross hairs on the marks, click and the coordinate will show, right click and a box will open and you can give this mark a name.

Check with your charts or maybe you have good knowledge of the area, for suitable water depth and other restrictions.


----------



## smackdaddy

So Lap, get me some new numbas! We've got to get some Chessie courses set. Such a huge body of water with no triangles? Embarrassing.

JRP/Jeff_H - you guys have courses?

How about the PNW? And somebody get Chall back over here for one in Sydney Harbour!


----------



## lapworth

Sorry I cant use google earth ??
Heres the best I can tell you.
A- 38.52214 - 76.28884 ( "1A" FL G 2.5s )
B- 38.52013 - 76.23524 ( "86" FL R 4s )
C- 38.54107- 76.24283 ( 2nm west of Tomas Point Light House)
You can check my numbers with NOAA chart 12270. If some one else can make a course in the bay please be go for it. We probable need 3 bay courses at least upper, lower and middle.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay lap - check the site. Using your landmarks above and chart 12270, I guesstimated a course. It is 10nm and is roughly based on the "86" FL R 4s buoy, but I'm lousy at navigating so you need to make sure it's correct.

If it is - that Chessie Bay course number 1!


----------



## lapworth

That's the best I have so give or take a second your the boss.


----------



## smackdaddy

lap- no worries. I'm don't think my coords nailed that buoy. So some of you other Chessies check them out and let me know what needs to move.

I like the idea of upper, middle and lower courses. Which cities should those be tied to? Right now I've tied your course to Beverly Beach - but it could be something else.

Just let me know.


----------



## JohnRPollard

*Chesapeake Course*



smackdaddy said:


> Hey JRP - lap is putting together a Chesapeake course for the GR. Would you take a look at his course and confirm it? We here having some difficulty tying down the coords.
> 
> *Here's his description of the course.*
> 
> *And here's what I laid out based on that description* which has very different coords. (It's the USA, MD course).
> 
> I had to totally guess on the "86" FL R 4s buoy - which was the only physical mark.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Also, I'd love to get a course from you! We still need some more CB courses.


Steve,

Sorry about replying in the thread -- I'm constantly battling a full PM in-box so it is better to discuss here.

My course would be the same as Lapworth's -- we enter the Bay from the same common river mouth. I suspect Jeff would also use the same course -- he's close enough.

I took a quick look at Lap's course description and your google map. Something doesn't look right to me. The corners of the triangle are in the wrong locations. I did not check Lap's lat/long coordinates, but sometimes translation issues crop up when folks are using degrees-minutes-seconds vice degrees-minutes-fractions of minutes.

I haven't been following the thread, and I don't know how the objectives have evolved. So I can't give any meaningful advice about the course waypoints. But if it were me, I'd want all buoys, not just a random waypoint out in the middle of the Bay. If it would work for the course requirements, I'd use the two buoys Lap mentioned and Thomas Point Shoal Lighthouse.

- John

P.S. For those of us who haven't been keeping up with this thread (it's getting pretty long, too), maybe a quick recap of the latest "Race Rules" would be in order?


----------



## smackdaddy

No worries JRP.

*HERE IS A LINK TO THE GR SITE AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS.*

The sign-up is not active yet - but you can see the current courses and rules.

The very simple gist of the GR is this:

Sailors in a particular area lay out a triangular course (either a 5nm short course or a 10nm long course - or both) with 3 GPS coordinates on their body of water. The course can include physical marks (buoys, etc.) or not. Your choice.

Personally, I think an "invisible" course is coolest - because only GR racers will know it's there. Kind of an underground RaceClub.

Regardless, you have to use your GPS to race around these lat/lon "markers", and record your tracks around the course. You then send us the KML or GPX file of your race along with your time - so we can confirm everything. Then we post the leaders and update it all season long.

You can race the course any time you like, as many times as you like throughout the year. The best time around the course for each particular yacht division wins. That's it.

Then, because the courses are all exactly the same distance, we can start comparing times from different areas to see how racers match up in different conditions, water types, etc. It becomes a true global regatta. Should be fun.

And here are the "formal" rules as they stand:

1. BFS Global Regatta Courses are established by 3 latitude/longitude "marks" on any navigable body of water. The courses can be a Short Course (5 nautical miles), or a Long Course (10 nautical miles), or a combination of both if the body of water will accommodate them. Some bodies of water, for example, may be too small to accommodate a 10 nm course. Below is an example of the Long Course for the Philadelphia-PA/Delaware-River area:










2. Each City/Body-Of-Water combination can only have 1 set of courses (e.g. - a Long Course of 10 nm and/or a Short Course of 5 nm). For example, the Chesapeake Bay can have multiple sets of courses close to various cities surrounding it. But Annapolis, MD can only have one set of GR courses on the Chesapeake Bay.

3. Once the marks have been established, the course or courses will not change. The only modifications that will occur will be in cases where safety and/or navigability issues arise with a particular course.

4. All courses are submitted by sailors in their respective sailing areas*. Submissions are made via the sailing forum Sailnet here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/61800-global-big-freakin-regatta-possible.html

We've done it this way so people can debate the courses as much as they want to make sure that the courses are the best, most equitable, and safest possible configurations.

5. You MUST use a GPS device in your race that has the ability to track your course and time, and output KML files for this data(or GPX files which you can convert to KML). Your entries in the BFS Global Regatta will be with these files - which will tell us all the info we need to score the races. You will have the ability to submit your KML files via the home page in your account. You can submit as many as you'd like as your time keeps improving. We will not accept any other form of time submission.

6. The BFS Global Regatta community can call "BS" on any entry. You will have the ability to flag entries that just don't smell right. Though that entry will not necessarily be deleted, it will be marked with a "BSterisk" - kind of like Barry Bonds' home run record. And this allows for good brawls which are the underbelly of great sailing.

7. All complaints, discussions, protests, trash-talk, etc. will happen via the Sailnet thread above. We'll keep an eye on the thread - and join in when it gets really crazy.

8. You must agree to all the rules, disclaimers and special regulations governing the BFS Global Regatta upon the creation of your account. And you must understand and agree that you are taking part in these races at your own risk and responsibility.


----------



## smackdaddy

*This Is Going To Be Fun!!*

Okay, I had my very first scouting of the Lake Travis course under sail - and I learned one very important lesson....I suck at this whole racing thing. I sailed 3 nautical miles into the wind and went nowhere.

However, I also found that this is going to be extremely fun!

Right now my main concern is working out the technology on our end, and figuring out what we'll need to know and have to make this work. It's definitely a challenge...which is great.

The winds were 15-20 knots with higher gusts. And I was trying to steer and navigate at the same time, with my buddy on the main trim (much needed with the gusts). To make things a bit more difficult, there were our 2 oblivious ladies and my 2 kids moving around the cockpit, throwing peanuts at eachother, cursing, and generally getting in the way. (You actually have to pay attention to this whole "navigating" thing.)

Here's a link to our actual track:

Smackdaddy02222010 - Google Maps

And here are a couple of stills with the track overlaid onto our course:










I was using my iPhone (with GPSKit) for this, just to test it instead of the Garmin. And as you can see, I missed the first mark by about 350 meters. Embarrasing. Something was off because it actually showed us AT the mark on that first tack - but it had this huge shift when I imported the track. I figured something was off because we were very close to land at that point.










You can see that we then made the two tacks windward toward Mark C before the wind got too strong for me to feel comfortable with full sails and all the people in the cockpit. It was too hard to pay attention.

So, as you can see, we ran back downwind and I told everyone to put away the peanuts and FOCUS! Then we started our push back to windward.

We were then hit by the strongest gusts of the day. Lots of boats on their ears. We were throwing down some serious "yeehaws" - but I knew that any serious effort for GR was not happening on this day. So we ducked off east behind Windy Point when my battery finally died.

We did finally get up to Mark C later when the winds chilled a bit. We saw 6+ knots a few times - so it was a freakin' blast.

At the end of the day, I can tell that we'll need to take this pretty seriously. It's definitely going to be a challenge racing a course with no physical markers.

Furthermore, I know that this is going to make me a much better sailor. Lazily sailing around the lake is easy. Trying to race to a specific spot, especially one that you're having to navigate to, is infinitely harder.

Another thing I have to get much better at is the use of the GPS. As you can see, I started the tracking (which started the timer, etc.) prior to hitting (actually missing) the first mark. So I need to figure out a way to get the timer and the tracking set to start and end exactly when I want them to. Any advice on how to make this happen more precisely?

This is going to be a tremendous learning tool for me.

So who's going to be the first to actually complete the GR Lake Travis Short Course?

GAME ON!


----------



## Ulladh

Smack

For rounding the mythical marks I will be using my Garmin 76, old but still works. Set the marks as Waypoints with a proximity alarm. I will need to run the course a few times to find out the best radius for the alarm.

On my course if the wind is direcly due east or west half my course will be a long tacking slog to windward. Looks like for you the problem will always be a wind due north or south.

My other limiting factor will be tide, with a typical 6 knot tidal current and a hull speed of 5 knots, I need to catch a tide change at my outer most marks.

Spring is coming and the ice chunks on the river will be gone.


----------



## smackdaddy

Thanks for the feedback guys - and the great advice porc. I'll work on it.

The inflatable marks would make things easier for sure, but I actually like the challenge of using pure GPS navigation to find them.

After I told my wife what I was doing - she got excited about it (and she's fairly ambivalent about sailing on the same lake every week). It's great to go out with a specific task in mind.

I'm telling you guys - this is going to be a blast! And a huge learning opportunity!

PS-


> If you could get a good blow from due west, you should be able to shave a bunch of time from your total. That would give you essentially a broad reach, close reach, and a long beam reach. Which would also mean you could carry more sail in higher wind. I just don't know if the wind ever comes though there consistently strong out of the west. If it does, that is your day to shine.


This is precisely my strategy, porc. We'll see what happens.


----------



## smackdaddy

All,

I don't know if you've done it already or not, but I've added "ENLARGE" links to each of the course maps on the GR site so that you can go to the Google Maps page for the course and add it to your "My Maps" section (you need a Google account to do this of course).

The cool thing with this is that you can then overlay your tracks on your course like I did above.

Fun stuff.


----------



## smackdaddy

Another scouting trip yesterday for the LTSC. I moved Mark B a little so it would be the red channel marker in the lake. And I used to an asterisk in the map to indicate it as a physical mark.

Those of you who have already designed your courses, let me know if one or more of the marks is a physical mark and I'll mark it on the maps of marks.


----------



## Ulladh

Smack
Added comment to Google Map. Mark "B" is Green Can "1E" off Harrah's Casino Chester.

Any other courses for the Delaware River folks;

5nm above the Ben Franklin Bridge?

10nm below Commodore Barry Bridge?

10nm near Delaware City? 
The Upper Chesapeake folks could show the Delaware river folks how to sail.


----------



## smackdaddy

Ulla - I added the notation. Thanks.

As for the Chessies - lap's doing his best but the other guys seem a bit lazy...or scared of racing...I can't tell.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - in an attempt to make your course building as easy as freakin' possible, here's a step-by-step on how to use Google Earth to find the coords for your course...

1. Open Google Earth (assuming you've downloaded and installed it...don't get me started) - and do a search for your body of water. In this case, we are laying out a hypothetical Long Course (10nm) for Lake Geneva, Switzerland:










2. Now go to "Preferences" in the pull-down menu, and set the "Show Lat/Long" to "Decimal Degrees".










3. Zoom in to the area in which you want to build your GR course. And click on the "Ruler" icon as shown. Select "Path" and set to "Nautical Miles" as shown.










4. Rough out your course in the area. Just get it close at this point. Also, make sure you DO NOT close the ends of the triangle...as indicated by the circle.










5. Move your cursor over each endpoint of the triangle and move as needed to place the course exactly where you want it - and to get the exact length as shown in the Ruler dialog. Remember, Long Courses are 10nm and Short Courses are 5nm. Zoom in to the open end of the triangle and get the two points as close together as possible.

(Note: To suspend the Ruler function while you zoom, yet keep the path you've created, just close the Ruler pop-up, zoom and pan, then click on the Ruler icon again.)










6. Once your course is exactly like you wanted it, zoom in very closely to each "Mark", or corner of the triangle (zoom in much more closely than shown in this image for more accuracy). Hover your cursor over the mark and read the lat/long coords at the bottom of the screen as highlighted by the yellow box.










Make sure your course is safe (e.g. - you're not hitting anything, the water's deep enough, etc.). You're the one that knows your body of water.

Note the coordinates for each of your marks, decide which of them are A, B, and C - and post them here. I'll make up the Google Maps version of the course and let you confirm it before it goes in the GR pot.

Rock on.


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm on the course right this second. Floundering. Wallowing. No wind. I actually have time in the middle of the "race" to post. Ouch.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - so the GR race today was a complete disaster. After a glorious start in 10 knots of wind on the nose, the wind immediately died. I mean DIED!

But see, that's the beauty of GR racing! Who gives a damn! Let's just hang out on the boat with a smokin' wife, great kids, beers, and filet mignons!

I can get used to this racing thing. Check it...

Tried and true race preparation aboard Smacktanic...









200 meters from the start...dead calm.









Smokin' hot wife on the deck...race schmace...









Let's cook some dinner while we're drifting around like chumps...









Macaroni and cheese steamin' on the deflowered Princess stove (now a propane rocket)...cook time...2 minutes...









Back to the steaks...and beer...









Obligatory sunset shot as we leave the GR with our heads high...









I love racing.


----------



## M275sailer

Look at that blazeing streak of cracked gelcoat and BBQ smoke go, love it.


----------



## GeorgeB

Smack,

O.K., I understand why Mrs. Smack is covering her face, but you? Still in witness protection? With that kind of provisioning, you will never have a problem attracting race crew. All that my crew got on the Double Handed Light Ship was coffee and a Danish (we had to leave the dock at 7 AM), sandwiches and Gatorade on course. And some Pacificos on the way back to Alameda. Where do you want me to post notes on races, here or over on BFS? We had a couple of moments during our little 30NM race (and I got a couple of nice picks out of the deal too.)


----------



## mackconsult

You have to love sailing on rivers. 99.9% percent of my sailing is on rivers



smackdaddy said:


> 2NM total. It's a freakin' river - what can I say?
> 
> Seriously, what should it be? If I need to get the Army Corps in here to expand the lake...I'll do it!


----------



## smackdaddy

GB, dude, you need to take better care of your crew. I'm sure the Pacificos went a long way to make up for the lousy food. Heh-heh.

Let's keep this thread specific to the GR races. Anyway, your stuff is always seriously big...so it always belongs in the BFS thread. And more people will see it there - as it should be.

The GR is only for an elite few.


----------



## mackconsult

Wow look at those racing sails :laugher . Nice work on the wife, drink, & food.


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey I never said I was good...just committed.


----------



## mackconsult

Look at my signature ..... its my moto when racing.


----------



## smackdaddy

Heh-heh. Love it.

Hey, mack, where is your GR course dude? Let's go!


----------



## Ulladh

Spring must be coming to northeast PA and the Caskills, the Delaware River is running chunky chocolate brown. Hopefully the chunks from up river will all be washed out by the time my marine starts to splash 1st of April.


----------



## lapworth

Help! I cant sign up on GR site.


----------



## smackdaddy

Sorry lap, we don't have the backend ready yet. I'll see if we can get it finished up next week.

In the mean time - just put your times here.


----------



## Ajax_MD

I saw many logs and pieces of lumber in the Chesapeake yesterday. Have sharp eyes.


----------



## lapworth

Hey Bubble ! I think I saw you on the way in on tuesday. Did you see a guy sailing solo with a black dog on the bow ? I was heading in as you where going out around 2:00 pm.


----------



## Ajax_MD

That was indeed me, and I saw you. I recall the dog. I took one of my reservist shipmates out for a spin. The air was pretty light when I went out, and I was cheezed that I chickened out on flying the genny. 

Sunday afternoon was a different story altogether...


----------



## downeast450

*Mount Desert Island Maine short course*

Hi Smack,

Time to start planning for a splash! We have a very early spring here.

Here is a short course I will propose for the waters just off Northeast Harbor, Maine.

A (N2) 
44 16'.26.6" N 
068 17'.27.0" W

B (R8)
44 15'.46.4" N 
068 16'.47.8 W

C (R10)
44 16'.52.1" N 
068 16'.09.8" W

How does it look?

It is at least 6 possible courses if you juggle the letters and the direction.

Down


----------



## smackdaddy

Down,

In laying this one out - it looks like it's only about 3 nm. The short course has to be 5 nm. What about moving mark B to the following coords:

44.245302
-68.283259

This would give you a 5 nm course.

Check to see if it works, or give me some new coords (in decimal if you don't mind so I don't have to convert) - and we'll get the course added to the site.



downeast450 said:


> Hi Smack,
> 
> Time to start planning for a splash! We have a very early spring here.
> 
> Here is a short course I will propose for the waters just off Northeast Harbor, Maine.
> 
> A (N2)
> 44 16'.26.6" N
> 068 17'.27.0" W
> 
> B (R8)
> 44 15'.46.4" N
> 068 16'.47.8 W
> 
> C (R10)
> 44 16'.52.1" N
> 068 16'.09.8" W
> 
> How does it look?
> 
> It is at least 6 possible courses if you juggle the letters and the direction.
> 
> Down


----------



## downeast450

*revised MDI race short course*

Smack,

Here is a revision. I am not sure why I thought I needed to make the short course 3 mi. I am using "old age" as my excuse for everything.

A 44.2741 RN "6"
-68.2908

B 44.2368 R "4"
-68.2825

C 44.2811 R "10"
-68.2694

Down


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay, one of you other guys check me on this so we can get this system down.

Down, when I lay your course out in Google Earth and measure it, I'm getting 6 nm exactly. If you move "Mark B" up into the channle some more, it would work to get it down to 5.

But before you do that, someone else throw this into Google Earth and measure it to make sure I'm not screwing it up on my end (which is always a distinct possibility).

I just don't want Down complaining when I'm soundly thrashing his 5 mile time because he's got another mile on his course.

Here's what I got:


----------



## downeast450

Smack,

That is the course.

I guess I am slow catching on. I can make it exactly 5 miles and I will if that is the standard we want. I thought the 5 miles was sort of a target distance for a "short" course. I guess I didn't see how a 5 mile course on a beautiful river in Texas can be compared to another one off the coast of Maine, for times. If you don't round the mark at B but continue on that course you will end up in Cape Town. Some of the built in variables that might have to be factored somehow are things like sea condition if a fair comparison is to be made. That is something that will be difficult to account for. Then there are currents and tides? It will still be fun!

Moving mark B to make the 5 mile standard is no problem. How close to 5 miles is acceptable? Could the racers time be adjusted, using their average speed, for small variations in actual course length to make the course selection more flexible; say between 5 and 6 miles? I'm just sayn'

Down.


----------



## smackdaddy

I doubt you're slow in catching on. I'm probably lousy at explaining the thing.

The idea is for all like courses to be exactly the same distance. Then it's just a timed race for a 5 mile (Short Course) or 10 mile (Long Course) speed run.

As for the courses and variation with the different bodies of water...the equalizer in the GR is that everyone can go out any time, and as many times as they want, in whatever conditions they want throughout the year to get their best time.

This keeps things simple and fun. Then we compare the times on the various bodies of water just for kicks.

If all the course vary in distance, then we have to start using math. And the whole point of the GR is stay away from math and just sail fast.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay Down, your course has been added. You are IN!

So scout your course when you get a chance and let me know if everything is cool with it.

Who's next in the GR?


----------



## downeast450

Thanks Smack,

I will send you another B that will make the course 5 mi.

Down.


----------



## smackdaddy

Here Down, click on the link below, then select your state and your course. I've already moved the B mark for you. Just make sure the course as laid out works in terms of safety, etc:

*GR Courses*

You can click on the yellow triangle and/or the markers for the course coords.


----------



## downeast450

smackdaddy said:


> Here Down, click on the link below, then select your state and your course. I've already moved the B mark for you. Just make sure the course as laid out works in terms of safety, etc:
> 
> *GR Courses*
> 
> You can click on the yellow triangle and/or the markers for the course coords.


Smack,

Nice job.

As the originator of this "project", you have a responsibility to visit and sail each of the GR courses at least once. Just let us know when to expect you. We will find you a boat.

Down

It will be fine.

Down


----------



## smackdaddy

Down - I just saw this. Hell I'm game for racing each GR course - crewing on your boats.

Now if we can get one around Copenhagen, BVI, Greece, Croatia, and Sydney - I'll be packing my seabag tomorrow.

I'm going to try to get out on the Travis course this week.


----------



## Ulladh

Just moving the thread to the top.
The boat went in the water this afternoon and I will do a practice run on the Philadelphia course this weekend.


----------



## smackdaddy

Ha-haaaaaahhhh!!!!!! Let the regatta begin!!!!!

I'll take a run this weekend as well. See you on the course pal.


----------



## smackdaddy

So which one of the Northwesties is going to submit a course for the Sound?

And GB - where's yours for the bay area?


----------



## Ulladh

The race is on.

Just checked my old Garmin 76, and need a new cable to connect to my new computer. The computer does not have a nine pin serial port, so I have an excuss to get a new GPS unit.


----------



## GeorgeB

Smack, been pretty busy - boat show last weekend, Vallejo Season Opener in two weeks followed by Crewed Farallones. Besides, doesn't a third in the DHLS count for anything? At least Latitude printed my name in the racing sheet.  But for your statistics, we sailed for about ten hours (including pre-start maneuvering), covering 49 miles giving us an average of 4.9 knots. Not bad considering the first half of the race was a real floater.


----------



## smackdaddy

MAN WHAT A DAY!!!!

First, I went out to the Austin Yacht Club today where they were demo-ing several different types of racing boats. I saw the write up on SA. Met some really great guys and got to sail on a couple of go-fast yachts. Looks like I'll be crewing this summer for sure.

It was pretty sporty today. Sunny, steady 15 knots from due N with gusts up to 25 or so. Great day as far as I'm concerned. I walk down to a dock full of 6-8 different boats.

First up was a Corsair 31 tri. Mylar sails, the works.I didn't have gloves and burned through my middle finger on the very first main hoist. Lesson learned. Once we got out, I got to drive that bad boy and hit 17 knots on a downwind run with a Code 0 up. Super sweet.

Once back at the dock, I hopped onto a Melges 24 with a skipper and 2 other crew. We hooked up the lake a bit, then turned downwind and threw up the spin. The acceleration was freakin' awesome. The skipper let me fly the kite for a while. Very, very cool. We hit 12 knots in that boat.

After sailing at 6-8 knots for so long, it was amazing flying along on these boats. But, I gotta tell you, even though the tri was fast and fun, it was kind of too easy. I liked having to really work the Melges. I'm definitely a mono man.

All that took about 3 hours (nice long runs on the boats). Then, with my blood pumping, I cruised over and met my wife and kids and a couple of friends for another sail on the Smacktanic. It was time to do a full-on race on the GR course.

With the gusts, I kept one reef in the main and flew the full 150. It was super pokey compared to the go-fast boats I'd been on - but it was GREAT fun. You guys HAVE TO DO THIS GR THING!!!

Finding the marks in the middle of racing (especially when you can't see them - as they are GPS marks only) - was super challenging for us. Also, since we have no idea what we're doing, driving strategy was probably horrible - but it was so fun.

Here's our run (starting at the south mark and beating north into the wind):

Smack_042410_TXLTSC.kml - Google Maps

You'll notice at the top mark I screwed up. I missed it by about 60' and had to turn back up and round it. Totally sucked. I just turned downwind too quickly. And since you only have the GPS to reference (no visible mark) it takes a few seconds to realize you've missed it as you zoom in, etc. Very challenging.

I also screwed up by not shaking the reef out on the downhill run. Definitely could have squeezed out more speed in many ways.

And here's our stats - read 'em and weep boys:

Distance 10.3 km (6.4 miles)
Min Alt 179.000 meters
Max Alt 204.000 meters (must have been those 25' rollers we had)
Max Speed 66.6 km/hour (hey, it could happen - don't blame me, blame the iPhone)
Avg Speed 8.3 km/hour (4.6 knots - decimating the 4KSB Barrier)
Start Time 2010-04-24T21:44:56Z
End Time 2010-04-24T22:59:46Z

So, we are officially on the BFSGR board. We smoked the Short Course in 1:14:50. I have no idea if that's fast or slow - but I'm stickin' with fast.

Drink my wake, suckas.


----------



## smackdaddy

Here's a video from the Corsair I drove this weekend. The guys that shot this went right after us:






Smokin!

(Thanks DaveK for making the video available)


----------



## smackdaddy

Well, I tried another run at the GR course yesterday - but the wind wasn't there. So, we drifted around and let the kids swim and play. No race - but still a great day.

Anyone else have a time yet? So far I am crushing the world on the Short Course at 1:14:50. It's kind of embarrassing....for the world I mean.


----------



## lapworth

Sorry I have been fishing instead of racing. I try in June.


----------



## smackdaddy

Sounds good. GO FAST!

Have you caught any big fish?


----------



## lapworth

One of my friends pulled in a 42" but that was a week ago and not under sail. I believe all the cows have left the bay so I am ready to race and put out the light tackle. Can I subtract time for each fish brought in while racing?


----------



## smackdaddy

Hit the Lake Travis course again yesterday. But, jeez, we stunk up the place! WTH???

smack_052210_TXLTSC

I drove as well as navigated most of our last run - and decided to focus on sail trim on this run. The conditions were very similar (15+ knots gusting to 25) only this time the wind was coming from SSW where last time it was NNW. That meant a fantastic reach/run on two of the legs with our big 150 genny, then a long beat back to the finish.

The only problem? We added 22 minutes to our overall time AND over a kilometer to our distance! Horrible! (It's probably closer to 1.5 kilometers more because I shut down the GPS for several minutes to conserve the battery - as you can tell by the very straight line on the track coming back down the course which was actually 4-5 tacks).

The sail trim was, of course, perfect. So all I can do is blame the other crew for lousy driving and navigating. Heh-heh.

Pics from our beat back to the finish...


















(Please note the wet rail.)

Even though our time was horrible, we actually did learn a lot about handling the sails. We left all the canvass up (full main and 150) and really worked the cunningham, outhaul, mainsheet and traveller on the beat back up the lake. The boat handled really well even in the gusts. So it was good. We had 3 or 4 gybes that went pretty well for such fresh conditions. Can you find the "chicken gybe" in the GPS track? That was in the middle of a sustained gust. I did indeed chicken out on that one.

Most importantly...we had a freakin' blast.

So, at the end of the day, I'm still ruling the "SailC" division with a smokin' time of 1:14:50 for the Short Course. I just don't see anyone besting that time this season.

Inconceivable.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - I can't take it anymore. I'm blowing off work and heading out to run the course. Lousy wind - only 4-6 knots - but that's good enough for me. It's sailing!

Later lads!


----------



## Ulladh

A to B on the Philadelphia course on Friday with no wind and mid 90 deg F, a controled drift then gave up and motor on. I had my brother a powerboater visting from Ireland with me in the hope of actualy sailing. Last time he visited he had a blast on a sailboat helm for the first time with winds at 10 to 15 and gusting to 20.

I would like to change the A from Crum Creek to Harbor Pointe Marina where we will be having the Delaware River sailnet meeting.

New 39.858056 -75.302883


----------



## smackdaddy

Ulla - I'll move that mark for you. Stay with it man! And see if you can get a SN GR run going at the meeting!

We went out today and had the same results as you - no wind, just drifted around. However, toward the late evening, a breeze kicked up and we started moving...finally. We were on a reach doing about 4-5 knots. Really nice.

There was a Tartan 28 about 100 yards behind us - slowly gaining. So, when he got about 20 yards off our stern, I tacked. He kept plowing ahead and missed our stern by about 15 feet...at which point I yelled "I'm trying to beat you dude! Slow down!" It didn't work.

He smiled and said, "Nice boat", kept going another 50 yards or so then tacked. He then proceeded to thoroughly humiliate us. I mean it was mind-blowing how slow we were going compared to that dude.

The upside is that we were able to follow his lead a bit in terms of point of sail, then work on the trim to hit that groove. He could definitely point higher, but he was also far faster. We finally figured out the proper trim on the genny and where to set the traveller - and we actually started gaining a bit on him. But it was hopeless. He hit the GR finish line 500-600 yards in front of us!!! Shameful, I tell you, shameful.

So, if the owner of a smokin' fast T28 was on the LTGR course today and frequents SN...my hat is off to you sir. You made me realize how badly I suck at racing.

Until next time, mein fruend. You shall not be so "lucky".

(PS - Oh crap I just looked up his PHRF and he's in the SailC class too. I am so scrood."


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey Ulla - I moved that mark - but if you're keeping that can as mark b, it appears you'll have a big freakin' slab of land that you'll have to sail over. That might slow you down.

So give me the coords on the 3 marks you want to keep the course at 5nm.


----------



## Ulladh

I changed the wrong mark, correct marks for 10nm;
39.858056 -75.302883 Harbor Pointe/Gov Printz Park (new)
39.87139 -75.343349 G "1E" Ridley Creek/Harrah's Racino (no change)
39.854162 -75.236488 Billingsport NJ/Mantua Creek (no change)

Harbor Pointe to Billingsport Saturday afternoon was too slow for completing the course before the Delaware River sailnet meeting, so I cut the course short.
Depart Harbor Pointe 1:15 PM with less than 5 knot breeze 2 hrs before high slack, just enough breeze for a gentle broad reach (2 knot SOG) to the up river end of Little Tinicum. Pass through the gap between Mifflin Bar and the sand bar, wind in the main river picks-up between 5 and 10 for a good dash (4 to 4.5 knot) across the shipping channel to Billingsport.
Slack tide and the breeze has again dropped below 5, tugs are marshalling barges up river in the Tinicum Range anchorage. My bearing to the next mark is into the breeze but the tide would start to be in my favour soon, this would be a series of tacks can to nun to can but not at a speed to clear the channel for the barges.
Broad reach back to Mifflin Bar then breeze drops to almost still air, slow lazy tacks to the marina, close to marina drop and bag the genoa, motor on and drop and tie the main. 
Begin my approach, motor throttle down, the outboard dies, check fuel, try to restart, nothing. Scull rudder so that my drift will be clear of the adjacent marina, untie and raise the main. 
Begin my approach under sail, the tidal current has not yet picked up much, the breeze is still gentle and I will be dead to wind in the slip.
The marina had change my slip to an inside slip from the end tee, I was useing the more expensive end tee until the new occupant arrived.
Approach was at less than 1 knot, a gust picked up, my speed was above 2 knots, peeled off and circle at the fairway entrance.
Restarted my approach with main sheeted out and luffing, but speed in the fairway was just under 2 knots, passed my slip and rudder over to swing into the adjacent vacant slip dead to the wind.
Boat secured, try the motor, starts first time?
4:45 PM time to go meet the Delaware River Sailnetters, and a cool beer at the bar.

Sunday morning motor started, adjusted idle, clean and greased throttle linkage and cable terminals. Motor out for a while, start, stop, forward, reverse then return to correct slip.

I will be practicing sailing in and out of my slip at slack tide, even when not perfect or intentional it looks cool.


----------



## smackdaddy

Ullah - I made the change. Should be good to go now.

We ran the course today and went even slower! The wind was great. About 10-12 steady with gusts to 15. But it was right on our nose coming back on the long leg.

It's made me realize that I need to watch for just the right wind conditions - similar to our first run - where we can do most of it on a beam reach. With your long course, you're probably going to need to do the same for a fast run.

You newbies out there should really try this. It's a great way to learn a lot about sail trim and driving tactics.

And it's a helluvalotta fun!


----------



## kaptainkriz

Smack...found the site and even already had an account to post here..too cool! Hopefully we get our course adjusted to 5 miles...or a least I'll add a virtual mark to work with. 
Tanzer 25 Akoni


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey Kap - I just answered your questions over at SA. Set up a course and let's do this!


----------



## kaptainkriz

OK, BFR Global 'Patuxent River Maryland'. Proposed course is around 2 club private beercan buoys and a virtual mark. Open water, lots of boats, active clubs in area with both small and big boat racing. Created the course in garmin mapsource, tweaked virtual coord in google earth to get 5.0nm even.

1. SMSA K 0.0 nm N38 17.799 W76 27.111 fixed club mark
2. BFRv 1.7 nm N38 18.577 W76 25.224 virtual mark 
3. SMSA L 3.9 nm N38 18.550 W76 28.090 fixed club mark
4. SMSA K 5.0 nm N38 17.799 W76 27.111 fixed club mark

BFR Patuxent

K2



smackdaddy said:


> Hey Kap - I just answered your questions over at SA. Set up a course and let's do this!


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay Kap - you're course is up on the site. Now LET'S RACE!


----------



## kaptainkriz

Where do I send the GPX?


----------



## smackdaddy

Wow kap - you're quick!

Send it to bfsgr at bfsshop dot com.


----------



## kaptainkriz

naah, not that quick....I still need to sail this course now. Maybe this afternoon. 

Hey, I notice in your KML there is a table...what code are you using to generate that? When I just use mapsource to open in Google Earth and save as KML I get all the data, but no stats.......
*-* <![CDATA[ 
*Distance* 10.3 km *Min Alt* 179.000 meters *Max Alt* 204.000 meters *Max Speed* 66.6 km/hour *Avg Speed* 8.3 km/hour *Start Time* 2010-04-24T21:44:56Z *End Time* 2010-04-24T22:59:46Z 
 ]]> 
Thanks!



smackdaddy said:


> Wow kap - you're quick!
> 
> Send it to bfsgr at bfsshop dot com.


----------



## smackdaddy

I've been using the iPhone as our GPS with the GPS Kit app. I open the GPX in Google Earth - then export is a KML file for Google Maps.

I'm not really sure if it's the app that creates that data or Google Earth when it opens the GPX. It's pretty handy though.

It'll be interesting figuring out how to sync the files from different GPS devices. We'll get it figure out somehow.


----------



## kaptainkriz

ok, figured it out....google earth puts it in there depending on how you import. Nice day on the water this afternoon in front of the storms. Got back just in time.
I did round the fixed marks...if the tracks continue to be off around them I'll redo the points....but it's close to the GPS error.

Boat is a Tanzer 25, rates PHRF 180 - So I guess I'm in C class. 

Time around course - 1:03:24
Link to KMZ attached:
Akoni KMZ#1
Akoni KMZ #1 with google earth plugin set

Game on! 
-john



smackdaddy said:


> I've been using the iPhone as our GPS with the GPS Kit app. I open the GPX in Google Earth - then export is a KML file for Google Maps.
> 
> I'm not really sure if it's the app that creates that data or Google Earth when it opens the GPX. It's pretty handy though.
> 
> It'll be interesting figuring out how to sync the files from different GPS devices. We'll get it figure out somehow.


----------



## smackdaddy

AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

You jerk! You beat me by 11:26!!!

What were the conditions (wind direction, etc.). And what sails? Jeez your line looks clean! ONE freakin' tack????

Here's a link to your run:

Akoni Rocks the House

I will update the standings grid - taking myself out of the lead...although you realize it cuts me to the core.

Oh yes - game on pal.



kaptainkriz said:


> ok, figured it out....google earth puts it in there depending on how you import. Nice day on the water this afternoon in front of the storms. Got back just in time.
> I did round the fixed marks...if the tracks continue to be off around them I'll redo the points....but it's close to the GPS error.
> 
> Boat is a Tanzer 25, rates PHRF 180 - So I guess I'm in C class.
> 
> Time around course - 1:03:24
> Link to KMZ attached:
> Akoni KMZ#1
> Akoni KMZ #1 with google earth plugin set
> 
> Game on!
> -john


----------



## kaptainkriz

Winds were from the southwest, gusting to the low 20's. 1st leg was a downwind scream, no spinnaker, with a roundup when I got tagged by a big puff. Upwind was pretty much straight upwind, light chop, three tacks. Last leg was shielded by the windward shore, blown flat, but still wind in the teens. Main is a new Quantum laminate, jib was my old nasty sobstad dacron 100%. Agree, it was a great run....  I'll keep workin it to see if I can get better.

Where are the standings?

-john



smackdaddy said:


> AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
> 
> You jerk! You beat me by 11:26!!!
> 
> What were the conditions (wind direction, etc.). And what sails? Jeez your line looks clean! ONE freakin' tack????
> 
> Here's a link to your run:
> 
> Akoni Rocks the House
> 
> I will update the standings grid - taking myself out of the lead...although you realize it cuts me to the core.
> 
> Oh yes - game on pal.


----------



## smackdaddy

That's some fast sailing Kriz. Nice.

It looks like your entry and exit into the marina were "on the clock" as well. Am I seeing that right? If so, that means you were actually blazing around the course much more quickly than 1:03:24.

Here are the standings:

GR Standings

Let me ask you something...most of the other courses have only 1 physical mark. In thinking about it last night - we should probably make that a rule.

My thinking is that it's definitely more challenging to line up and round a virtual mark. And if every course has two of them - no one can whine about 1 course being "easier" than another.

Would you mind moving one of your marks a bit? I'll make the change to the rules page.

(PS - You know - now that I've said that, is the rule that ALL courses MUST have 1 physical mark? Ah, rules. Maybe it shouldn't matter?)


----------



## kaptainkriz

Thanks dude! No, my time was just around the course, I used the datapoints/times just before and just after the 1st mark where my track overlapped. As for the course, virtual marks might be harder, especially if you're not used to them.....and also easily verifiable in the data. I'm game for at least two virtual and will move one of mine and send you a new location. Now for the fun - I obviously missed one of my virtual marks...even though I claim to have made the real mark....who's to say? So, for all entries, the track must make all the marks in the data....meaning my entry may be deemed non-complaint.  No matter how you do it...some courses will be easier than others...people just have to live with that. This is supposed to be fun, right?


----------



## smackdaddy

Cool - thanks. I've updated the rules accordingly.

Just get me the new coords and I'll tweak your course. At the end of the day, you're right - it's about fun. But it's gotta be KINDA hard so we can smack talk each other!

The GPS margin of error will be interesting. You want to shave it close, but you've gotta clear that mark. 

I'll leave your run up in the leader board for now. You knocked me out of the lead - and I had a bit of shave myself (going around the mark the wrong way). So what the hell?


----------



## kaptainkriz

If you use the virtual mark and GPS, error will never come into play...GPS contains the mark truth data and your measured location will be what it says...if it sez you made it, you made it.

now of course, when I reset my virtual mark I'll put it inside my current run......just so I can claim it counts. LoL.

You've got a Catalina 27? You should be able to get around your course in under an hour on a good day. 

smack on!



smackdaddy said:


> Cool - thanks. I've updated the rules But it's gotta be KINDA hard so we can smack talk each other!
> 
> The GPS margin of error will be interesting. You want to shave it close, but you've gotta clear that mark.
> 
> I'll leave your run up in the leader board for now. You knocked me out of the lead - and I had a bit of shave myself (going around the mark the wrong way). So what the hell?


----------



## kaptainkriz

Patuxent MD mark #3 has been changed to a virtual mark.
The new location is: N38 18.605 W76 28.060  

I see in google earth you reloaded the kml file and it defaulted back to metric. The data gets generated on each import of the gpx file and uses the defaults of google earth...so you should change the defaults to make it english (if that is what you want). 
It's in Tools:Options:3D View:show elevation:feet,miles

aKONI


----------



## smackdaddy

kaptainkriz said:


> You've got a Catalina 27? You should be able to get around your course in under an hour on a good day.
> 
> smack on!


Heh-heh. Dude, you've never seen me sail! I suck!

But...

"I'm getting better".









PS - Thanks for the tip on the units. I'll try the import/export again. And I'll get your mark fixed up.


----------



## smackdaddy

Another GR course added by Ishmeal over at SA:



> I did this in Sea Clear, so it should be good. Looks like good clean fun.
> 
> A. 48,39.925 N, 123,22.939 W
> B. 48,39.198 N, 123,20.971 W
> C. 48,37.935 N, 123,21.653 W
> 
> Hope this works, anyhow...


It's now up on the site and he's running it this weekend.

I'm just glad Canada's picking up the slack here for the rest of the world. I was afraid it was going to be US leading the way.

And hey, Oz, what the hell? Nothing from you blokes?

Shameful.


----------



## kaptainkriz

*arrr, not beaten the hour mark yet!*

Did a couple runs around the course this afternoon, winds were a lot nicer (8-12 from the SE). Not a repeat of last week, but ok. Wind was very shifty and light near the west shore...made for a difficult tack back to the finish.

Run 1 1:12:02
Run 2 1:08:13

Still working for that elusive sub hour time.   

-john


----------



## smackdaddy

DUDE! YOU'RE SLOWING DOWN! And starting to sail like me. Heh-heh.

But adding only 5 minutes to your original time in 8-12 is impressive. I still really suck at going fast in light winds.

We were out today in 15-20 but didn't run the course (had some friends in from out of town).

I'll snag that sub-hour. Just wait pal!


----------



## smackdaddy

A couple of new courses from the dudes at SA. One in BC and two more in the Chessie...

CHECK IT OUT!

And another on the way for MDR.

George - dude, you've got to get a course up for SF before some other mook does.

And where the hell are the Aussies? Shameful! The EU I can understand. Their money's going in the crapper. But Australia? The sailing capital of the world? Shameful.


----------



## Ajax_MD

Lol...the Beverly Beach short course is gone. Otherwise, it's perfect.


----------



## smackdaddy

Bubble - take a look here:

BFSGR MD Courses

Click on Beverly Beach, then "BB-CB (SC)". Isn't that it? Or did I screw something up?


----------



## GeorgeB

Smack, 
Now, how does that BFS Regatta work again? What is the over-all course length and how long do each leg have to be? I might have some time in mid July to run the SF Bay course - what are the times that everyone is posting? How have you been doing yourself? (I need to figure out how fast I need to sail).


----------



## smackdaddy

GB - here's a link to everything you want to know:

BFS Global Regatta

But for you, my friend, an executive summary for your questions:

-Set up a 5nm or 10nm course triangular course in your area (legs can be any distance, no more than 1 physical mark, but distance has to be exact)
-Send me the coords for each mark and I'll get the course into the list
-You better hurry before someone else sets up a SFB course before you. Guys over on SA are setting up courses left and right. I don't want to see you get scooped.
-As for times, I had the best time in the Sail C class for the short course until KaptainKriz smoked me by 11 minutes. He's on the leader board right now for SailC with 1:03:24.

You better sail fast pal.


----------



## smackdaddy

Well Akoni (Kriz) is still leading the SailC class Short Course with a 1:03:24 on the Patuxent course in MD. My best has been 1:14:52. But I have been trying valiantly to take him...to no avail. I just keep getting slower.

I blew off work yesterday and went out with a buddy to run the course. The winds were great 15-20 with gusts to 25. But, alas, they were right on our nose coming back to the finish.

*HERE'S THE RUN*

Came in at about 1:32. Oh well, I'll wait for an easterly or westerly wind and try again.

Got a good size rip in the genny on a particularly strong gust - and the motor died in the middle of the fairway coming back in. But it sure as hell was fun! And I'm learning a lot about sail trim and steering. Very cool.


----------



## smackdaddy

A question for you racers...

As you can see by my course in the link above, we took the first mark (in the cove) fairly wide. The reasoning was that, though we now know how to jibe safely, even in 20 knots, we still lose speed because we're not super smooth yet. So, I figured it would be better to stay a course that milked the wind for speed instead of doing a couple more jibes - even though it pushed us pretty wide of the mark.

How do you determine that trade-off, sticking closely to the line through multiple tacks/jibes as opposed to moving a bit off the mark but maintaining overall speed?

I assume the answer is "learn to jibe better" - but thought I'd ask anyway.


----------



## smackdaddy

Also, I found a great primer for racing basics. And I knew it was for me by this line in the intro:



> Mistakes
> 
> Every race, you'll make many mistakes. The key is to forget about them for the moment, and go on with the race. It never helps your game to dwell on a mistake. All the energy spent on the last blunder takes concentration-concentration that is needed for sailing a great race. It might help to say "f**k," but only once.


*LINKY*


----------



## smackdaddy

Man, the Chessie sailors are lighting it up! "Old Shoes" (SailD) ran the Beverly Beach short course in only 1:06:33.

Smokin'!


----------



## lydanynom

I think this sounds really fun, but I can't get a triangle over about 3.8 nm on my small local lake. Rats. Looks like I'm going to have to wait until next season when I plan to have a better tow vehicle. 

I'm curious, in the list for phrf ratings linked on the instructions site my San Juan 21 is listed as 240, but there is no variation for sail inventory, like with/without spinaker, 150 genny or class-legal 130, etc. Should that factor? (I have no kite and the 130.)


----------



## smackdaddy

Bummer. You need a bigger lake dude!

Sail config doesn't matter in our classes. Whatever you can do to go faster - you do it. It's just about the speed.

A kite is currently on my wishlist.


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey lydan, the racers have spoken...via PMs. Good guys those!

Go ahead and set up a 2.5nm course and lap it. Send me the coords when you have it ready and I'll check 'em.


----------



## lydanynom

smackdaddy said:


> Hey lydan, the racers have spoken...via PMs. Good guys those!
> 
> Go ahead and set up a 2.5nm course and lap it. Send me the coords when you have it ready and I'll check 'em.


Hey, great! My thanks to you and bubblehead.

I was going to go out today but the forecast looks like 0 to 3 mph, I don't think I've got the stomach for drifting around in that right now. It would be okay if not for the damn wakeboarders... but I digress.

So, back to that rating thing, 240 would make me just a smidge into your class D but it is a 21' cruiser/racer and you have those 22' and under classes as well... what gives there?

I'll have fun with this no matter what, but I'm wondering if I am going to get hammered if I wind up in that class D with all the truly fast boats.


----------



## smackdaddy

Right on.

As for the rating, it's your call where you want to put your boat. The reason I put in the sub-22' class is purely waterline.

If I were you, I'd snag SMCruiser class and rule it while you can.


----------



## lydanynom

smackdaddy said:


> Hey lydan, the racers have spoken...via PMs. Good guys those!
> 
> Go ahead and set up a 2.5nm course and lap it. Send me the coords when you have it ready and I'll check 'em.


I can't find your email address anywhere. Here is a kmz, is that the sort of thing you are after?


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay lyd - you're in. Check it *HERE*

Then click on the "Join In" link and follow the directions to send me your info.


----------



## lydanynom

smackdaddy said:


> Okay lyd - you're in. Check it *HERE*
> 
> Then click on the "Join In" link and follow the directions to send me your info.


Very cool, thanks.


----------



## zz4gta

What's the PHRF splits? On your site? I may have a go at this, but would need to borrow a GPS.


----------



## smackdaddy

Yeah zz, the splits (divisions) are on the site *HERE*.

According to the PHRF doc we're using (Northern Cal) - your merit 25 would be a 168 (no cb) or 219 (cb). This would put you in SailC or SailD respectively.

Check out the site - get me a course for Leesburg and let's race!


----------



## kaptainkriz

*C fleet*

Suck it up ZZ, you're in C fleet with me!
Ah...and my new fastest time is just under 55 minutes...(but forgot my GPS, so it does not count). With the right wind, I think I can get it down to just over 45min.


----------



## smackdaddy

I just smack-talked Kriz over as SA - but jeez, dude, if you throw down 55, I'm going to have to get serious!

I've learned that the course I laid out for Lake Travis is only fast in the spring and fall (with easterlies and westerlies). Our southerly winds in the summer are a ball buster. Maybe I should have thought about that one.


----------



## zz4gta

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah zz, the splits (divisions) are on the site *HERE*.
> 
> According to the PHRF doc we're using (Northern Cal) - your merit 25 would be a 168 (no cb) or 219 (cb). This would put you in SailC or SailD respectively.
> 
> Check out the site - get me a course for Leesburg and let's race!


Can I use my current PHRF certificate for the Ches Bay?


----------



## smackdaddy

Well - the season is winding down and it looks like the SailC and SailD classes on the Short Course might be sewn up by two SA sailors. I'm having a hell of a hard time catching the 1:03 in SailC.

Anyone else even coming close? Anyone running a long course?


----------



## Ulladh

July and August I attempted the Philadelphia 10nm course, but making headway with a 5mph breeze produced a projected course average speeds of about 2kn (controled drift with the curent). I ended up doing one or two legs of the course then motor.

September and October winds are usually 10 to 15 with gusts above 20. My first complete run of the course will be next week.


----------



## Ajax_MD

I dunno what "season" you're referring to Smack, but I sail until the water turns hard.

Although I'm alone in Sail D, I'll still be striving to break my previous time. I now have crew for the Pirate's Cove Frostbite's so this will give us some practice.


----------



## smackdaddy

Ulladh said:


> July and August I attempted the Philadelphia 10nm course, but making headway with a 5mph breeze produced a projected course average speeds of about 2kn (controled drift with the curent). I ended up doing one or two legs of the course then motor.
> 
> September and October winds are usually 10 to 15 with gusts above 20. My first complete run of the course will be next week.


Heh-heh. At this point all you have to do is finish and you've got the Long Course comp WRAPPED UP!

"Coming in first with a blazing time of 3 days, 23 hours, and 59 minutes is the LC Champion: Ulladh!"


----------



## smackdaddy

BubbleheadMd said:


> I dunno what "season" you're referring to Smack, but I sail until the water turns hard.
> 
> Although I'm alone in Sail D, I'll still be striving to break my previous time. I now have crew for the Pirate's Cove Frostbite's so this will give us some practice.


Yeah but you're a hardass dude!


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm just glad GeorgeB has been too lazy to set up a course on SF Bay. The Easties wouldn't stand a chance.


----------



## kaptainkriz

*Broke the hour mark*

Muahahahah, 58:24!

Smack that. 

K2


----------



## smackdaddy

NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

What were you flying?????


----------



## Ajax_MD

You dirty sonofa... I'm coming after you Kap'n Krazy. _Today_ even.


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey Sailingdog - why don't you go throw down a time for the multi class before everything freezes up? Surely you can make that Telstar move!


----------



## smackdaddy

K2 - your sub-hour time is now mocking the world.

*HERE*


----------



## kaptainkriz

The cruising #3 and no main...even with that I was getting knocked all the way down a couple times. 



smackdaddy said:


> NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
> 
> What were you flying?????


----------



## smackdaddy

Wait, you did that with headsail ONLY????? Man, I've got A LOT to learn. Great sailing Kriz. What was the wind?


----------



## kaptainkriz

Over 30



smackdaddy said:


> Wait, you did that with headsail ONLY????? Man, I've got A LOT to learn. Great sailing Kriz. What was the wind?


----------

