# Newbie buying a dirt cheap liveaboard...



## Benton (Dec 17, 2013)

Im sure you can tell from the title that this is going to be a disaster but humor me for a quick minute 

I just moved to Orlando from Minneapolis and realized that for the first time living on a boat year round is a viable option. 

Factors:
1. I hate the concept of renting, 100% wasted money. At least with a sailboat I can recoup 50% or more of my investment. 
2. I have always wanted a sailboat and am willing to make sacrifices for the dream.

What Im thinking so far:
1. Buy a small sailboat around 25' for hopefully about 3,000 based on what Ive seen on craigslist. 
2. I have a lake picked out and a business owner who said I can rent their unused dock for $100/month. I can run a power line out, water and wifi booster. 
3. Im going to get a gym membership for showers. 
4. There is a marina across the lake that can tow my boat after purchase. I met their mechanic who said he could survey a boat for me for a good price on his own time. The marina can do the waste pumping or whatever. 
5. Im super handy so Im not too worried about getting and older boat. I know a little bit about wiring plumbing refinishing etc and have flipped houses.
6. I just got a decent part time job with a software developer so I can afford to fix it up as I go and upgrade to something bigger and better in a few months. 

So Advice:
What kind of sacrifices do you have to make on a boat this cheap?
I thought about it and it seems like a lot of stuff could be broken and I could still use it. IE stove: get electric counter top one, toilet: composter portapotty, engine: no problem im just taking it out on the lake a bit, electricity: I can fix myself

Where should I buy it? Private seller or used boat yard? 

Is limited head room on small boat going to suck? im 6'

I have friends nearby so its pretty much just for sleeping. I can probably talk the business owner into letting me instal a small shed for bigger things. 


Okay, shoot holes in my plan 
Thanks for help in advance. Obviously I just found this site online.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Headroom will not be good. Live with it. Maybe an Ericson 25+.
You don't need a broker on a boat like this. By from owner.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

I live on an islander Bahama 24 head rooms not great. do you sail or is this just to motor around and sleep on as a " dock queen" if the latter you will be happier with an older cabin cruiser ( better headroom )


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

This is obviously just a place to rest your head at night. Why are you searching for a sailboat? 

There are a variety of derelict powerboats that would probably offer more cabin space.
Sure, go for it. Your plan is brilliant.

FFS, I thought this was "Sailnet" not "Help-drifters-beat-the-cost-of-rent-net".


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

I use to hang on the one of the Rolex forums where people ask crazy questions about "can I wear my Rolex doing this or that". I see on this forum "it's cheap liveaboards"

:laugher:laugher:laugher


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> This is obviously just a place to rest your head at night.
> 
> FFS, I thought this was "Sailnet" not "Help-drifters-beat-the-cost-of-rent-net".


Seems to be several posts lately that mirror the beat the cost of living responsibly on a boat.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

I doubt that a composting toilet will fit on the size boat you're talking about.
That being the case, where can you (legally) empty your porta-potty?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

My wife and I lived aboard an O'day 22 for a few months.

People do it every day it's called camping.

My son and girl friend lived aboard a Pearson Commander for a year in Annapolis including one winter. He decided not to do the second winter though.

You can manage anything for a while.

I like that you are getting all your ducks in a row.
Have a dock not a mooring.
Are going to pay for what you consume, dock, water, power, showers.

Good for you.

One thing my son complained about was being wet all the time.
It is really hard to control the moisture.
You open the hatch when it is raining and everything gets a little damp.

You will probably get sick of it after a while but in the mean time you will have a good story.

It is not likely to be sailing however. 
Having the boat ready to sail whenever the weather is nice and knowing how is another whole subject.


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## Unkle Toad (May 11, 2013)

if you are getting a tow to the dock you will be staying on getting back to the marina for pump out might be a problem

if you dont know much about boats getting that mechanic to do a quick once over at least is probably a good idea. but Like Bob said in that range a full Survey is overkill. 

6" is pushing it for headroom in most boats that size but really you have a floating living/sleeping area you dont stand up unless cooking(my #1 need was standing space in the Galley) you spend your time on deck or not there or sailing so headroom is not as much of a thought as it would be somewhere you spend more time moving around in. 

Do it go for it have a blast and if it sucks you didnt put too much into it right?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I would think the biggest issue will be the oppressive summer heat WITHOUT AC 

Even up here in much more moderate NY going below on many summer days is instant sweat time


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Welcome to Sailnet, Benton.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I advise you to go to Orlando, FL and scope it out before you entertain an idea like this. Orlando is about 30 miles from the east coast & 60 miles from the Gulf coast so no cool coastal breezes (except when a hurricane or tropical storm comes around). 
Orlando has a large number of freshwater lakes around it. It is also a fairly highly developed area (think disneyworld etc) with agriculture just outside the populated areas (think cattle and truck farming). It can get pretty hot and humid which is why most folks live in houses with air conditioning or single or double wide trailer homes that at least have plumbing, electricity and running water.
You need to check on these lakes and how they may smell, and how bad the mosquito and other pests are. 
If this was such a great idea more people would have already traded in their double wide trailers for house boats.
Your idea is nice on paper but I think you need to have boots on the ground to figure out how viable it really is.
Let us know what you find out.
Good luck.


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## aelkin (Feb 3, 2013)

LOL...agreed about the propensity of 'how to beat paying rent' topics recently, but I believe I might detect a hint of jealousy in those who complain.

I like Bob's advice. There are things that will suck. If you can live with those things, and still want to go ahead, go for it!

Don't listen to the people who tell you to pick a decrepit motor boat. I'm sure it will be more comfy, but what are you going to do with it??

Buy a cheap sailboat. Make sure it floats, and has all the stuff you need to go sailing, even if you don't know what to do with it.

Move aboard. figure out what you like and what you don't. set aside money to go the the sports bar and watch football while you drink beer and eat chicken wings. FIGURE OUT HOW TO SAIL...and if, at this point, you are still interested in living aboard, go find a nice big boat, and do it properly.

Great stories await you, young man...now go get busy living them.

Andy


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

If it's only 30 miles to the east coast I would look into that 1st. Heck Harborless' boat is for sale for $6k and he's lived on it without any issues,,,


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

You say you always wanted a sail boat. How much are you willing to spend. Or is this a free boat abandoned at the yard that they are willing to give you to get it out of there. If you are serious, look for something a bit bigger and more suited as it sounds like you will need to put in alot of time effort and money. If your going to spend the money you might as well have a boat thsys a keeper. If you are a bum...go get s van.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I agree with the others, it sounds like you at least have a responsible plan. You've figured out how to get the boat pumped out, so you aren't dumping waste into the lake on which you'll be living. You aren't talking about avoiding insurance, or how paying for a slip is for suckers. That, in my mind, helps distinguish you from many of the others who ask similar questions, and I congratulate you for being more responsible.

I used to own a Catalina 25, a very popular 25' sailboat. You can find them all over, and for close to your price range. The problem with almost all 25' boats (I was aboard an Irwin and one or two others that are the exceptions) is, as others have pointed out, standing room. The C25 has a "pop-top" that lets you increase the headroom inside a fair bit of the salon to a bit over 6'. That is FANTASTIC, because otherwise you're moving around with your neck or knees bent. I'm somewhere between 5'10" and 5'11", so not incredibly tall, and being inside the cabin got old after a while. If I could have kept the pop-top up, that would have been better, but the pop-top doesn't cover the entire boat, just a portion of the salon. So, cooking in the galley would have been interesting because of the lack of headroom. I had a port-a-potty aboard, and we had a strict "emergency use only" policy for that, so I never actually TRIED to go to the bathroom aboard, but I know that I was hunched over when I was in the head. The V-berth was JUST big enough for me to sleep in comfortably. Regarding the galley, please note that most 25' boats don't have a refrigerator, they have an ice box (cooler). That's a HUGE change from living in a house. Similarly, as was pointed out above, those boats don't have A/C or heating built in. So, unless you're in an area with good breezes, you might get a little warm. If you want A/C, heat, or a fridge, you'll need power, and a single extension cord probably won't give you the power that you'll need to run both (imagine the A/C and fridge kicking in at the same time). That means you may need 2 extension cords, each from a different circuit on the owner's panel. Also, please be sure to use, at the very least, outdoor extension cords, and the heavier gauge the better. The exposure to the elements can eventually lead to fire if you aren't careful.

I offer those observations for two reasons: 1) so you have some idea of what you're getting yourself into, and 2) so that you might consider a slightly larger boat. Some 27's have standing headroom, and have more beam than most 25's. That will make a HUGE difference in how the boat feels as your "home". You can go from feeling like you're camping to feeling like you're living in a very small apartment.

In the end, the decision is yours as to what you can tolerate. Remember, it may take you a year or two before this begins to really pay off (the cost of the boat, the slip, and all the maintenance could be used to pay rent). If you only do it for a year or two, then sell the boat, you'll have some interesting stories and life experience, but you may not be all that much better off than if you had just rented.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

In the original post - 

Factor #1 is , IMHO , completely wrong. Rent is frequently the best deal around all things considered. Sailboat owners frequently recoup much less than 50% of TOTAL COSTS and/or purchase price.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Benton said:


> At least with a sailboat I can recoup 50% or more of my investment.


No offense intended, but if you really believe this then you are only fooling yourself. If you actually include ALL of the costs associated with owning a boat, there is absolutely NO WAY that you are going to sell it a few years down the road and recoup 50% of your "investment." The only way to do that is to buy a boat today, and sell it for half as much tomorrow!



Benton said:


> The marina can do the waste pumping or whatever.


Or whatever? Okay, I admire the fact that you are at least thinking about this. But you need to get way beyond "or whatever." You need to clearly understand the laws concerning waste disposal before you are ready to decide if this is a trade-off that you are willing to make.

I myself lived aboard a 23' sailboat for about 6 months back in the early 80s, on Lake Monroe (just north of Orlando). Using a gym for showers sucks. Not having standing headroom really sucks. Not having air conditioning really, REALLY sucks! And without A/C you have to leave the boat open, which means you will be swarmed by bugs--they LITERALLY suck!

Having done it for 6 months (I bailed out when July rolled around) it's one of those things that was an interesting experience, and I'm glad I did it, but there is NO WAY that I would ever do it again! If you really want to give it a try, then do. Good luck to you.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Benton said:


> I just moved to Orlando from Minneapolis and realized that for the first time living on a boat year round is a viable option.


What are you talking about?! You can totally live aboard year-round in Minneapolis!
The Real Houseboats of the Mississippi - - News - Minneapolis - City Pages

There are challenges, of course: 
"His worst winter was when the sewage pump froze. On a boat, toilets don't flush the way they do in a condo. Instead, every few weeks, residents hook up a hose to their sewage tanks to 'pump out.' And one balmy November, someone on the dock forgot to drain the pump when he was done. The next person who went to use it found it frozen.

'We put propane heaters around it, we did everything we could,' says Cherveny. 'But nothing worked.'

Until a brief February warm spot two months later, no one could use the bathroom in their house, and a line of live-aboards ran down the block to the Holiday first thing every morning."


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## bradentonbeachboy (Jun 16, 2008)

Yeah, you will not last the summer in Orlando without air conditioning, seriously. Also, summertime on a lake in central Florida is a mosquito nightmare, can you say encyphylitis? And no breeze in Orlando. Better off out by the Cape and commute or in Cocoa, maybe Daytona, but a lake in Orlando is nothing like a lake in Minnesota. Make sure you have a can of Gator-Raid handy.


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## The Names Dolores (Oct 29, 2013)

I think DavidPM summed it up best. Totally possible just really what your willing to put up with. I did it in the chesapeake for a 1.5 years. 1.5 because I wasnt going to do another winter like that. 

Sounds like you have a pretty good idea of the hardships and have the right attitude to deal with them. Taking care of human waste will probably be the most difficult part but you can figure something out. You'll have your low moments but what else are you saving yourself for?

People like Bubblehead are just mad because their parents probably pushed them into sailing and made it all happen for them so they never got to have the adventure your having...


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

You will be shweaty, broke, and sunburnt. You may get malaria from the man-eating mosquitos, or pneumonia from the ridiculous moisture level every time it rains. You will learn to drink your adult beverages warm, or become completely dependent upon ice. Your head will somehow frequently (and violently) find the boom, top of the companionway hatch, or bottom of the mast step between the bulkheads. You will learn that the head is a one-way in, one-way out venture in faint light conditions, and that your date may not be terribly impressed by this, especially when you mention to go easy on the TP. 
And this is all from the first weekend.
But you will have a level of freedom and self-sufficiency that most people can only dream of.


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## White Knight (Sep 14, 2013)

Most folk I know sit down to eat and lie down to go to sleep,so who needs full headroom,a boom tent would probably be a good investment-Chris-NZ


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Chris, do you sit down to cook, too? Do you crawl to get from the v-berth to the head, or from the v-berth to the companionway so you can leave to go take the shower? Probably not; instead, you'd like to stand. That's where standing headroom comes in handy.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

The Names Dolores said:


> ...
> 
> People like Bubblehead are just mad because their parents probably pushed them into sailing and made it all happen for them so they never got to have the adventure your having...


Four posts and one is unnecessarily mean. Not an auspicious beginning. Please refrain from personal attacks.


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## avenger79 (Jun 10, 2009)

alright, a "sailing" post I have some good input for. LOL

I am from WI, moved to Orlando a couple years back. stayed in my camper while there and have since begrudgingly moved back. 

first, you moved to Orlando at the best time of year. Enjoy the winter season it is fantastic. you mention being on a small lake. in the summer you will notice first THE HEAT!! the water there is not like up here. their lakes get hot. the water is like bath water in small lakes. no depth to them to stay cool. Humidity in summer is worse than on great lakes. bugs I never thought were a problem, definitely there though. I had my camper on a lake as well. Lake Whipporwill by Lake Nona. beautiful area. 
next, from may through oct you get no sailing breeze on lakes, unless it is accompanied by torrential downpours. I have stepped out of my camper into 10" of standing water after a good blast. helped a couple friends bail their boats to avoid swamping. Been almost knocked over in a small sailboat out on a beautiful day. sudden gusts blew through with no warning.
Sailing there is fun, I was on Lake Fairview for sailing but I always wanted to get out and go on the ocean. Lake Fariview Marina BTW has some small boats for sale. nice folks to talk to and they give ride alongs first week of every month to get you into sailing.
If you want to look for a boat to stay on, look at Titusville. They have a marina there with lots of sailboats. not too far from Orlando. 
I would also look as mentioned above, at Harborless' boat. 
During the summer, never leave anything outside vulnerable to wind. not even for a few minutes. watched quite a few RV awnings go flying as the ownner just walked to the lake and back. 

Most importantly. don't look back. LOL. Orlando is a beautiful place with fantastic people. Tons of things to do and places to go. it's alright to try and live cheap but don't cut yourself out of the fun of being "in paradise"

If you like a good beer I would recommend the Nona Tap Room. look it up, nice place. not cheap, but lots of choices.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

jimgo said:


> That's where standing headroom comes in handy.


You want to know what annoyed me most about the lack of headroom in my San Juan 23? It was the need to get dressed and undressed everyday either stooped over, sitting down, or laying down. Got really old, really fast.


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## avenger79 (Jun 10, 2009)

denverd0n said:


> You want to know what annoyed me most about the lack of headroom in my San Juan 23? It was the need to get dressed and undressed everyday either stooped over, sitting down, or laying down. Got really old, really fast.


WOW! I looked at a San Juan 23 while in FL, not as a live aboard, just to sail. I can't even imagine trying to live aboard it. 
my sympathies. LOL


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

Benton, The biggest hole that I see in your plan is Orlando. Really? 'living on a sailboat in Orlando? There's the Atlantic to the east at Titusville or the Tampa Bay & Gulf to the west, but Orlando is inland with just little round lakes that are not connected and you would just sit in one of them with no place to sail. Someplace with access to open water could be nice, but if you're in Orlando, then you're just looking for low income housing!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

So if you are going to have the boat towed to the dock? So it sounds like you won't be taking it out, just get a house boat. Sure they are as attractive as a 1970's mobile home, but who cares they give you a lot of room and are cheap.


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## faiaoaehe (Nov 29, 2013)

I lived on a San Juan 24 with 2 of us, and did ok. Installed a portapotty with pump out so am legal, and cooked on a single burner on cabin sole while sitting at the table. The table could be converted to bed, and porta potty in v berth area.

It can be done, but invest in mosquito netting. A small boat without opening ports is problematic, but invest in house battery bank, solar panels and fans.

I am on the coast and have breezes.

Are these lakes patrolled by police marine units? Be legal. All safety equipment, and legal head.

Invest in the book "This Old Boat"

For 3K you should at least have a running outboard on the boat. If not get one.


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## Benton (Dec 17, 2013)

Thanks you guys are all awesome! Ill buy you a beer if you ever make it to Orlando. This has got to be one of the best forums on the net.

I definitely have a lot to think about. Im going to rent a room at my buddies place while I look around for boats. It seems like a motorboat might be a better option although less glamorous. I can afford to spend more but the whole point was pay of college debt quicker. 

Bugs and weather seem like the may be a bigger issue than anticipated.


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

Miatapaul brought up a good point. If you want a boat just for living on, a houseboat makes the most sense for the money.
Found this one on Craigslist (I DON'T KNOW THE GUY!).
http://orlando.craigslist.org/boa/4247918087.html


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I actually lived on a house boat for a while. I bought it for $5000 and sold it for $5000 and did not do much work to it. It was actually really nice. 40 foot houseboat from the 1960's but in Cincinnati there really is no sailing on the Ohio river, so it would have been a waste to try to live on a sailboat. I only had the boat about a year or so.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Houseboating on the St. Johns river is popular and the river is quite close to Orlando and its suburbs. The travel from there is rather unlimited. Here's a local marina:
Sanford Boat Works & Marina, Inc. : Photo Gallery


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## Benton (Dec 17, 2013)

I was thinking sailboat because it is romantic. If I wanted something bigger Id just get a motor home i guess


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Benton said:


> I was thinking sailboat because it is romantic. If I wanted something bigger Id just get a motor home i guess


What you're talking about doing, is the waterborne equivalent of living in a cardboard box, under a highway overpass. That's not romantic.

Look dude, I lived aboard in a boat not much bigger than yours, (My beloved Pearson 30, which I still own) but I did a hell of a lot of research and preparation. 
I rented a slip in the least expensive marina I could find. 
I installed a simple, 30 amp shore power system aboard my boat. 
I had heat and A/C, I insulated the hull, windows and hatches. 
I had a microwave, microfridge, and an alcohol stove.
I greatly improved the seaworthiness of my boat.
My time preparing the boat was well spent, because I weathered a close pass by Hurricane Sandy. I stayed on the boat.

I'm smelling a lot of "if" and "whatever" coming off of your plan.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Benton said:


> I was thinking sailboat because it is romantic. If I wanted something bigger Id just get a motor home i guess


What was not clear from your inquiries here or on chat is if you planned to sail this boat, or just live on it.

I can see living on a sailboat (not cruising, just living in a slip) if one loves sailing, can't afford a sailboat and any other form of housing, and this allows them to sail multiple times per week. I can't see doing it for any other reason.


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## avenger79 (Jun 10, 2009)

now if you start leaning towards the RV side, I would recommend KOA in Lake Nona, can only stay 5 months at a crack then out for 1 to 2. Also the KOA in Apopka was not bad. both are very close to Orlando. minutes away actually, and if you still want to sail lake fairview is close as well. 
prices were very inexpensive all things considered.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

The Names Dolores said:


> People like Bubblehead are just mad because their parents probably pushed them into sailing and made it all happen for them so they never got to have the adventure your having...


So dolores, did you get this from the Seinfeld episode?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Benton said:


> ...I can afford to spend more but the whole point was pay of college debt quicker...


Others here have much more experience than I do, but my own opinion is that the less you pay on you boat up-front, the more you will pour into upgrades and emergency fixes for the whole duration of ownership. And all that money is much less likely to be recouped when you sell than if you spent more up front for a boat in better condition.

So if you REALLY want to do this, and you can afford to spend more, you should think very carefully (and talk to some experienced people) about total cost of ownership for old boats vs. REALLY old boat.

I agree with others that your chances of saving a lot of money are pretty small, and the chances of having a miserable experience are pretty high if your boat is too small/old/cheap.


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## Pirate007 (Jan 26, 2013)

I know where there is a 1981 25' Bayfield with 2'9" draft, new sails, sail pack, diesel, ST60 depth and speed, A1000 pilot. Bottom being sanded now and needs someone to complete the blister repair and Interlux barrier/painting. St Augustine.
Pirate007 is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Of all the people who show up here with a similar plan, yours is probably the first I have seen that is close to realistic and well thought out. 

You say you are "super handy" are you also super motivated? I am assuming your new job will pay you substantially above minimum wage. If so, I would recommend spending 10-15k, finding a 30-35 foot boat that is in rough shape, and fixing it up. If 2 years down the road you decide you want to keep living on a boat, you will have a boat you will want to keep (not true with a 25' boat). If 2 years down the road you want out, you will be able to sell it for at least what you paid for boat+slip+parts (assuming you do all the work yourself and make good choices). In the meantime you have a comfortable place to live, which is not true with a 25' boat. Then again, comfort is relative.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

You mention approaching the boat purchase as an investment of sorts. What happens if you get in over your head and the boat is too much for you to handle? Will you simply walk away and leave the boat at the dock? Then you're out thousands of dollars, and those thousands of dollars could have been used to live in a much more comfortable apartment with a roommate or two, and with air conditioning, probably a pool, and, most importantly, screens on everything.

Lest you think we just make up these "doom and gloom" scenarios, let me tell you what happened to me. Our first boat, a Catalina 25, was bought for $1000. She had been neglected by the previous owners, but was still in decent shape (they had only had her for 2-3 years). We bought her in October, sailed her until late November, then had her hauled. I worked 4-5 hours almost every night over the winter making new cushions for the salon, refinishing every piece of woodwork that I could remove, making new running rigging, etc. In the spring, in addition to the sewing and other repairs I was doing at home, I spent one full day a weekend every weekend cleaning, polishing, and refinishing the interior and exterior, rebedding hardware, changing masthead sheaves, installing a mast crane and step, adding a battery charger, upgrading some of the electrical system, etc. I busted my butt, but she really looked great, and I was confident that she was sound when we launched in mid-April. We sailed her several times that summer, and life was good. Then, almost exactly a year after we bought her, and after we had put several thousand dollars into her, Hurricane Sandy paid the NJ coast a visit. I had been traveling for work, and couldn't get to the boat to move her to a marina with a travelift. So, the night before landfall I drove to the boat and pulled just about everything of value off of her. Sails, outboard, electronics, tools, etc. all came off. I adjusted the lines so she'd have some room to move in her slip, and looking at the boat next to us (a tugboat) and how it was arranged, I felt confident that I had done everything I could to be sure she'd be OK. It took 3 weeks before roads were open and people could visit the area, and when I got there, I found her still afloat, but the tug had sunk and listed into our slip. Our boat bashed against the tug for days before the marina could rebuild the docks well enough to get out there safely and adjust the lines. Debris had also shattered several of the windows, and the cabin was partly flooded. The weeks worth of work that I had put into the cushions was ruined. Ultimately, the boat was totaled. We had the boat insured for more than we paid for her, but still less than her actual market value, or even the value of the purchase price plus the "stuff" we had put into her (not even accounting for my labor).

So, what did we do? We bought another boat with the insurance money, of course. This time we hired a surveyor, and things looked great. The boat was a bankruptcy asset, and needed a lot of cleaning and brightwork. But the surveyor and the broker both thought the boat was in good shape over all, and I agreed. In March of this year we hired a captain to move her from southern Virginia to the Baltimore area, where I was going to take over and move her the rest of the way "home" to NJ. Late March was rough, with strong winds and unseasonably cold temperatures, but the Captain took the job and started the trip. Well, the steep chop on Chesapeake Bay proved too much for my boat's 30+ year old engine. The damping plate gave way, causing the boat to lose propulsion about 5 miles from her destination. I had a local marina look at the engine, and they told me I was better off totaling the boat because the repairs were likely to cost us more than the boat was worth. I was crushed, because there was no way we could do anything other than sell her for scrap, and the scrap value wasn't very high. Maybe a few thousand dollars, but I'd still have to pay for the towing and disposal of the hull, and that was going to cost me almost as much as I'd make from the scrapping. Basically, the several thousand that I had just spent for the boat was gone, and all because of a broken engine.

Thanks to the good folks here at Sailnet, I was able to find another marina to do the work and at a more reasonable price, but that started a nearly 5 month repair (and that's with having a marina do the work) that cost us more than the several thousands we paid for the boat and required us to get a new damping plate, transmission, heat exchanger, and hoses, among other repairs. Once she was re-launched, we sailed her home without a hitch. Went sailing a few weeks later with my dad, and a jib sheet somehow wound up in the water without us noticing. The sheet fouled the prop of the newly repaired engine, and we were lucky that we didn't damage the transmission or the engine. We had to be hauled to have that fixed, which was $250.

So, owning an old boat (and even new boats) can be a very expensive proposition. As you would expect, things can happen away from the dock, but they can also happen at the dock. You can do everything right, and nature will still find a way to get you sometimes (in my case, typically whenever money is already tight). If you are fortunate enough to be able to have the money to fix the boat should something happen, then your plan sounds like it would be a lot of fun and a great way to spend at least a year or two (though preferably on a 27-30' with standing headroom!). But if you're looking at the boat as a cheap way to live and enjoy being on the water and sailing, please be aware that you'll need to be ready to invest in the boat in ways you probably haven't even thought of yet. If you don't, you'll lose your initial investment in the boat (which you said you hope to recoup at least a portion of).


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## leifthor (Nov 21, 2014)

I've been living on my Ericson 25 since late July of this year. Awesome boat can't recommend enough. Low headroom at first is difficult to get used to but once you've been on the boat for a couple or a few months that changes and you learn how to easily live aboard a boat without over 6 feet of headroom. Being in a marina with a clubhouse with showers and laundry facilities, and hooked up to electricity and water, and having a small refrigerator makes all the difference in the world


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

It sounds like a good plan if you want to learn to hate sailboats.


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## Rapp (Nov 16, 2014)

Jimgo,I learned a ton from your reply.I thought I was the only one that had that kinda stuff happen to them.I've been power boating for 20 years and have had great luck with the boats I've owned,I'm starting to realize sailboats have a lot more that can go wrong with them.I'm starting to think if Boat stands for bust out another thousand,sailboat means bust out thousands.


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## leifthor (Nov 21, 2014)

Sorry don't respond to rude people, so anyway as I was saying you CAN live on a 25 ft boat, and here's a few more reasons why you might want to continue exploring living aboard a 25ft sailboat.
-Fewer, less expensive parts
-Cheaper to buy, as you can buy a good condition 25ft Ericson for around 2,500, where a 30 decent sailboat will run you at least 9-10,000 minimum or 5 times as much for that extra 3 inches of headroom, and 3ft added length of interior.
-More affordable dock fees, as they charge by the foot.
-Easier to sail solo.
-25ft sailboat is quite variable, as many sailboats that length are much smaller than my boat inside. Go with an Ericson or Catalina if you want room.
-With lower costs, I've paid off my boat the other day while everyone else with larger boats here will be paying for years to come.
-Size equals inertia, so the larger the boat, the harder to move the boat, and storms here in this marina are battered badly while my little boat just bobs about not weighing that much (5200 pounds).
-If I ever wish to move, my boat is easily trailerable, and with an 8ft beam, any road in the US is doable, no extra permits required.
-Since boat investments never return, smaller hole to pour money in to.
-Just 10 years ago, before video was available online, living on a 25ft boat might have been a bit more lonely, but now with my unlimited data plan and Netflix, my bad ass laptop that's a full on video editing station with my limitless Internet keep me pretty entertained evenings.
-Beachable/relaunchable
-Easier to heat during winter here so when it's snowing outside, with a small space heater, I'm T-Shirt comfy. 

In short, I learned to adapt to the boat, rather than asking to boat to adapt to my landloving American bigger is better space loving needs, and yeah it was a bit nuts for a month or two working out how to cook and clean up in a space less than a meter squared, but then I adapted, and now, I wouldn't take a larger boat if you offered it to me. I wouldn't do it specifically because of the reasons I've listed above. This is because I've lived on other boats, and one thing I've seen over and over is this-

-"Oh, that's big enough", always winds up with them spending all their time on the boat fixing it, rather than enjoying it.

I'll end on this story that blew my mind. I'm with a friend looking at a sailboat, cause he has the 2ft itus, and I'm walking about, and come across a guy putting a sail away on a stunning 50ft sailboat that had to be worth over 500,000, I mean tip top sailboat. We got to talking and eventually, he asked if I had a boat, and when I told him I was living on a 25ft Ericson, his eyes narrowed, and he genuinely looked angry, and he said- "I bet you spend a lot more time sailing then you do fixing her up." which made me grin ear to ear, as this guy with his awesome beautiful 50ft sailboat, was jealous of me and my simpler life, and the cost to me was just the ability to walk about the interior of my boat without crouching slightly. In my 25ft Ericson, I have a bedroom for 2, living room, dining room, kitchen, office, enclosed bathroom, and deck.

So don't take the American bigger is better attitude in to boats, or you'll wind up like all those guys I see fixing their boats week after week, month after month.

At one point I owned a sunfish, which is like a surfboard with a sail, and I sailed ever day past the row of large nice sailboats in Marin in the Bay Area. When I was done, I'd pull her out of the water, lean my sailboat against a tree and go on with my life. In the many months I sailed every day, not once, I repeat, not once did I ever see any of the boat owners take their boats out. Saw them fixing their boats a lot. Watched their stares as I'd sail by in my tiny sunfish, and it never stopped entertaining me. 

In short, don't look at the photo and fall in to the trap, for there's a lot more to owning a boat then just finding a place to park it between sails or for living on it.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Glad it is working out for you. It would be limiting for many. I have been on a few sub 30 foot boats I would be OK living on myself but need room for a few guests for week or more at a time. So I keep looking for a mid 30 footer.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

mines for sale in "paradise"

regarding the ops post

op good luck...all Ill offer in the way of advice(ive done it on an excalibur 26footer in a marina, I was only 17) is that first have a max budget for the boat, then be open minded about the size range

usually standing headroom starts around 27ft for many boats from the 70s and 80s...in the 60 you need to look at 29 footers and up for that.

if you arent sailing it much you can get cozy wooden boats(make living onboard feel like youre in a lodge or cabin in the mountains) for sale too that go cheaper than glass boats...generally speaking

just have a good bilge pump in working order always.

lastly think outside the box and heed the advice of those that trully want to help you

I learned a long time ago that if you let the negative comments affect your judgment simply put you arent strong minded enough and you need to "snap out of it" so to speak.

if you know what I mean

so do it! be happy and get your google foo search on...beleive me cheap sailboats can be had for pennies to liveaboard on, especially those that need something sail related to be able to sail off into the sunset like sails, or a boom or rigging etc

sailboats that miss gear go for pennies...like mine probably will jajaja

you can even get hulls and then search around for a mast while you pay off your college debt or whatever

peace


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> I learned a long time ago that if you let the negative comments affect your judgment simply put you arent strong minded enough and you need to "snap out of it" so to speak.


I think this is a REALLY good point.

Almost every question of this nature, that comes up on this forum, there will be a few people who are brutally honest, and point out all of the negative aspects of whatever the OP wants to do. And then there will be others who come along and accuse those people of being "naysayers," and "too negative," of trying to kill the OPs dreams, or of trying to burst the OPs bubble.

Yeah? Well, guess what? In cases like this, if the OP can have their dreams killed and their bubble burst by a few negative comments from strangers on the internet, then they were not NEARLY committed enough to the dream in the first place! The reality of life would burst their bubble and killed their dreams in no time flat--and probably at very great expense. So the negative comments of the naysayers probably saved them a whole lot of time and money.

If you REALLY want to do something like this (or sail around the world, or whatever), then a few negative comments from strangers are NOT going to deter you! You are going to, as Christian put it, "snap out of it" and get along with your plans. And if the comments on an internet forum really are enough to kill your dreams, then it is probably best to bury those dreams right now and get on with your life.

In any case, I do wish the OP, and anyone else contemplating this sort of a life, the very best of luck.


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