# 1 rescued, 1 dead, 4 missing in Mobile Bay Regatta



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Must have been one helluva storm that went through this regatta. 
Not good news for the Mobile Bay sailors. My thoughts and prayers go to them. 
Lets all hope the 4 missing are found safe.

1 rescued, 4 missing after sailboats capsize in Alabama bay | Fox News

From the sailing club website: http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2015/04/several_boaters_missing_after.html


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Woah.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Why wouldn't racers have a life jacket on? I've only been in a few races (Solings and J-22s) and we were mandated to wear a PDF. Maybes the boats were bigger? 

So many painful lessons recently about why to wear a PDF when things get dicey or in a smaller boat.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Nancyleeny said:


> Why wouldn't racers have a life jacket on? I've only been in a few races (Solings and J-22s) and we were mandated to wear a PDF. Maybes the boats were bigger?
> 
> So many painful lessons recently about why to wear a PDF when things get dicey or in a smaller boat.


The second linked story mentioned boats up to 39 feet. And also mentioned it was a squall that came out of nowhere with little or no warning. Most people on boats that size in good weather and protected water will not have a life jacket on.


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## lumpy102 (Nov 16, 2014)

So many painful lessons recently about why to wear a PDF when things get dicey or in a smaller boat.[/QUOTE]
HOW ABOUT WE WEAR OUR PFD ALL THE TIME when underway? Just sayin. When things get dicey isn't the time to go looking for yours. i've worn my Mustang inflatable EVERY TIME I've been out, racing or otherwise. It seems the "can't happen to me', or 'not on my boat" attitude kills more people.
Ok done rant.
its very sad and tragic to lose a member of our larger sailing family, condolances to the family and friends


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

dont racers have mandate to wear pfds already??
we truly need another unenforceable law on the books involving pfds and sailing.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Agree that people ought to have pfds on but it's never going to be adhered to in local regattas. How does a storm "come out of nowhere?" Assuming it was a thunderstorm produced by a front, there may be an issue here as to whether this regatta should have even started. Another tragedy produced by "groupthink?"


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

This Mobile Bay Reggatta reminds me of an incident that occurred in New York Harbor back in 2011 no one died but a sailboat did sink:

_"Recently I was listening to reports on VHF radio from the Coast Guard of a sunken vessel north of Ellis Island in New York Harbor. I was wondering how that vessel got there. A post at Learning to Sail had the answer to my question:

"Yesterday evening a squall rolled through the harbor with terrific force. The anemometer aboard Willy Wall, our floating clubhouse, registered a peak of Force 9--that's a "Fresh Gale" on the Beaufort Scale, meaning up to 54 mph of wind. The Manhattan Sailing Club's Wednesday round of racing was caught squarely in the middle of it, as well as some other sailboats in the middle of what was otherwise supposed to be a splendid sunset sail."

What could go wrong here? Julian at Learning to Sail has the photos and story of the sinking along with some really good advice that all sailors should think about before and after heading out on the water like:

"Whether you are planning a long car trip, an aircraft flight, or a sailing trip, risk assessment and risk mitigation are important parts of the go/no-go decision. Weather is one of those risks that applies to all souls on the road, in the air, and on the mane. Apps abound to watch it from afar, but looking up and around is free, and there's always Hal on WX-1."

"It's better to be on the dock wishing you were out sailing, than out sailing wishing you were on the dock."

"We lost one boat last evening, and it would have been more if some frisky, on-the-ball sailors hadn't been able to STRIKE SAIL, NOW! Can't do that if your halliards are thrown down the hatch in a ball instead of figure-eight coiled on your winch. Can't do that if you hung 'em backwards."

The sinking of the Grand Republic also dramatically makes the case of why you and your crew should always be wearing a PFD when getting on the boat. _


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

*More Info?*

I have read that the regatta had been cancelled. But an hour later it was a go. I am sure someone was looking at a weather radar. So this just popped up out of nowhere?


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

This was posted on Cruisers Forum showing wind speed in the area.
Look at it from the past 24hrs. You'll see a spike in the wind speed of over 50mph still on there.

Buccaneer YC | Wind, Weather & Forecast | SailFlow


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Wind at Middle Bay lighthouse (confirmed by sensors on a boat at the center of the cell-affected area) was 73 mph a bit after 1500.

Two storm fronts came through yesterday...one before daylight, after which the weather turned beautiful. Both fronts were forecast a couple of days earlier.

The second front was forecast for a bit later than it actually arrived (for 1730 here...about 50 nm north of Mobile), with severe thunderstorms. Perhaps organizers thought the weather window was long enough to get the race in.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

lumpy102 said:


> HOW ABOUT WE WEAR OUR PFD ALL THE TIME when underway? Just sayin. When things get dicey isn't the time to go looking for yours. i've worn my Mustang inflatable EVERY TIME I've been out, racing or otherwise. It seems the "can't happen to me', or 'not on my boat" attitude kills more people.
> Ok done rant.
> its very sad and tragic to lose a member of our larger sailing family, condolances to the family and friends


Yes, always sad to hear of the loss of fellow sailors, of course...

However, with so few details available at the moment, who knows whether or not those affected were or were not wearing PFDs, or whether their use would have made any difference? Especially, regarding the circumstance that might involve a "capsize"? Those who died aboard WINGNUTS in the Chicago-Mac race a few years ago were wearing life jackets, after all... And, a few of those who had to escape from inside the upturned hull of the maxi RAMBLER after she lost her keel during the Fastnet, admitted that their inflatable vests greatly impeded their ability to swim out from underneath her... So, _you never know..._

I'm certainly not the one whose advice to follow regarding PFD use, however... To the best of my recollection, the last time I may have had one on was about 7-8 years ago...

It was at the Great Bridge Lock at the start of the ICW. I happened to coincidentally arrive there, and be locking thru, with some old friends on another boat I hadn't seen in some time. While waiting for the opening, I got off my boat, and walked back to theirs to say hello...

In order to do that, I had to don a PFD, for the regulations at Great Bridge require anyone stepping OFF their boat at the lock needs to be wearing one... Not wearing one while actually ON a boat while in the lock, no problem, that's OK...

'Rules and regulations' re the use of PFDs, not always the most sensible or effective solutions...


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

lumpy102 said:


> HOW ABOUT WE WEAR OUR PFD ALL THE TIME when underway? Just sayin. When things get dicey isn't the time to go looking for yours. i've worn my Mustang inflatable EVERY TIME I've been out, racing or otherwise. It seems the "can't happen to me', or 'not on my boat" attitude kills more people.
> Ok done rant.
> its very sad and tragic to lose a member of our larger sailing family, condolances to the family and friends


I think there was a thread about people discussing if they wear their PDF all the time... more about do you require your guests to wear a pdf...

I have a little dinghy, but that is my rule, if not on, close by


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

titustiger27 said:


> ...I have a little dinghy, but that is my rule, if not on, close by


Well, actually that's the USCG's rule also. Need to have it readily accessible, not down in the cabin inside the settee.

FWIW, we wear ours all the time. No exceptions.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> Well, actually that's the USCG's rule also. Need to have it readily accessible, not down in the cabin inside the settee.
> 
> FWIW, we wear ours all the time. No exceptions.


'Accessible' is key. In a small open boat (Designer's Choice 15) you could say that the pdf's are always accessible, if you move all the sheets and the paddle.. and so on.

I have mine of 95 percent of the time, but often not secure... when the weather kicks up, that changes.

I will have the crew to be able to grab, not get to..


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

OK, I've got ZERO experience in these types of races/regattas and I'm in no position to second guess anyone with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

I'm really interested if race committees or organizers normally hold a pre-race safety briefing for captains/crew.


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

I thought this thread was about a storm hitting the Dauphin Island race in Mobile Bay. The PFD issue has been beat to death. The real question is about having a race over open water with small boats and beach cats along with bigger monohulls. I imagine that being on a beach cat in 60-70 knots would not end well. Other reports indicate a Cal24 capsized and sank. I would guess there were others. There is a reason why they have qualifications for offshore races which a lot boats in this race did not meet. At a minimum the boats should have met the USSailing regs for a coastal race.

Having experienced a 70 knot microburst at night with only a dismasting here is what I learned: 
1. Hatchboards were in- no water in cabin
2. Lazarette had positive latch and remained closed- no water in boat
3. Forget about saving the sails, blow sheets and halyards if necessary.
4. All 6 crew had PFDs on, lights, whistles
5. Crew were not clipped on.

I'm a firm believer in proper PFDs when on deck at night, or when reefed, or when flying a headsail smaller than a #1 or when you have seaboots on. That's just me.

Invoking the Wingnuts tragedy is just wrong as an example of PFD use. Bad example as Wingnuts was not your normal boat. I was 14 miles away from Wingnuts when it flipped. The conditions were bad but not bad enough for the 300 other boats in the vicinity to capsize when the 2 thunderstorms came together in the middle of the night. Most people don't realize how inherently unstable a Kiwi 35 is. I raced on one in the late 90s in Tampa Bay. A person of size could heel the boat 20 degrees at the dock by standing mid beam on the rail. The speed of the flip caused an impact injury that resulted in death not a PFD.


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## Golfdad91 (Jan 30, 2014)

I grew up on Mobile Bay, it is so shallow that the waves are really bad in squalls. I was on my boat in the marina when it hit, I could not believe the intensity of the winds that were sustained for twenty minutes. the regatta has everything in it, catamarans, trailer sailors, boats up to 50 ft.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm over in the Pensacola area. Yes, it was a wicked, fast moving squall line. 

My wife and I were headed out to dinner yesterday (Saturday) afternoon, crossing the bay as it hit, and it was an impressive storm. Huge swells and whitecaps. Friday a buddy had said he was planning on going sailing. As I looked at the churning bay, I mentioned to my wife that I sure hoped he was back in.

Then this morning I hear about this disaster in Mobile Bay. Man. These folks are in our prayers.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Sanduskysailor said:


> I thought this thread was about a storm hitting the Dauphin Island race in Mobile Bay. The PFD issue has been beat to death. The real question is about having a race over open water with small boats and beach cats along with bigger monohulls. I imagine that being on a beach cat in 60-70 knots would not end well. Other reports indicate a Cal24 capsized and sank. I would guess there were others. There is a reason why they have qualifications for offshore races which a lot boats in this race did not meet. At a minimum the boats should have met the USSailing regs for a coastal race.
> 
> Having experienced a 70 knot microburst at night with only a dismasting here is what I learned:
> 1. Hatchboards were in- no water in cabin
> ...


The race wasn't in open water. It runs inside a fully enclosed bay. At no point in the bay are you more than five miles from shore. It really is almost custom designed for small dinghys and beach cats, which is why this race is so popular.

Add in the normally large number of spectator and support boats and this is normally a very safe and reasonable race. This year an unexpectedly bad thunderstorm rolled through the regatta moving at over 50mph, with wind speeds in excess of 70kn.

And as you guessed being in these conditions on a beach cat were obviously terrible. Reports are still slowly coming in, and the Yach Club is too worried about saving people to announce a press release.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Weather bombs do occasionally do happen, clear air 'white squalls' are not that uncommon. Sailing in semi-protected waters and close to a windward shore in such developing weather can easily reduce the visuals of an oncoming 'freight train'.

When such events are threatening or a remote possibility, Sandusky's listed items are spot on ......... and with or without having an PFD on (as Ive had the displeasure of the recovery of two bodies who drowned on 'turtled' boats ... and with their PFDs on).

I like Jon Eisbergs description of the Great Bridge Locks totally and clearly inane 'rules and regs' .... most probably enforced for the prime reason to prevent lawsuits against the federal government, as are probably most of the reason such 'safety laws': liability/risk avoidance in a society where increasingly RISK has become the most important 'pastime' for the forced transfer of $$$$. 
Common sense and a keen anticipation of worse case possibilities, I think, always trumps the current ~78,000 rules/regulations and laws ... *per person.* Ultimately, there will be safety laws for the wearing of helmets, shin guards and shoulder pads, PFDs, etc. for during the act of procreating children. ;-)


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

In the end it's still up to the sailor, and I wouldn't want it any other way! I am sorry for their trouble; But we all know the risk, ......Dale


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

lumpy102 said:


> So many painful lessons recently about why to wear a PDF when things get dicey or in a smaller boat.


HOW ABOUT WE WEAR OUR PFD ALL THE TIME when underway? Just sayin. When things get dicey isn't the time to go looking for yours. i've worn my Mustang inflatable EVERY TIME I've been out, racing or otherwise. It seems the "can't happen to me', or 'not on my boat" attitude kills more people.
Ok done rant.
its very sad and tragic to lose a member of our larger sailing family, condolances to the family and friends[/QUOTE]

I have to say, I agree, but thought i am just overly cautious. We go out on a sunset cruise on Lake Champlain in a 34 or 35 foot Pacific Seacraft only in good weather. Also, we go out on Saturday cruises. I always wear a PDF, although I don't always have it zipped up. I have a very active imagination, though, and can see 50 ways to fall off, so that's why I wear one all of the time. Even on the dock.


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## drosymor (Aug 6, 2014)

A tether is your solution to fear of falling off.

Paul


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

*forecast*

I am having a hard time understanding this. My understanding is that severe thunderstorms were forecast. (Someone please correct this if I am wrong)

I also understand that at one point earlier in the day the regatta had been cancelled. Why was this decision reversed?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

There were early morning thunderstorms that delayed the race. After the storms went through the models indicated weather stability for the rest of the day. With an outside chance of developing thunderstorms in the afternoon. But this is pretty typical of the area all summer. The weather forecasters predicted 10-15kn out of the west for the rest of the day with minimal thunderstorm chance. 

Sadly what happened was that the outside chance did come to pass thanks to a fast developing storm system that was traveling at over 50mph. It built over south west Louisiana then rapidly build and gained speed as it moved east. By the time it got to Mobile, even if competitors had been listening to the radio there wouldn't have been a good place for many of them to duck into. It's either get to the island or not.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Looking at the NOAA maps early today, it looks like a major front pushed through yesterday. Making the choice to cancel an event because of a possible weather situation is a tough one for the organizers who have usually donated a lot of effort to make an event happen. When lives are at stake, safety should probably trump all other considerations. Maybe the one good thing that may come out of a tragedy such as this is that other organizers exercise too much caution before giving the green light to recreational sailors who will likely "follow the leader."


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

smurphny said:


> ...When lives are at stake, safety should probably trump all other considerations...


Sounds nice on the surface, but that logic could be used to cancel every race, cruise and daysail. The difficulty lies in where to draw the line.


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

It's spring time on the Gulf Coast. There is a chance of a thunderstorm almost every day. We got hit by one at anchor last Friday morning (4 am). So, just stay tied up in a slip at the marina? My heart goes out to the dead and missing's families. 

Ralph


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

*no 2nd guessing*

Apologies if I sound like I am second guessing the organizers it's not my intent.

When you hear about something like this your first response is: WHOA!

Then you start worrying about all the lives especially those who are missing and you pray they return to sail another day.

Then you start asking questions to see if anything can be learned. Any experienced sailor has been "caught" usually through a poor choice of their own. I always get caught on Sunday's. Have a nice sail on Saturday, drop anchor and then wake up Sunday to something I didn't expect.

A few years back I was chairman of a committee organizing an event. It was a race scheduled for 6PM in the evening. Trouble was because of all the prep required before that time a decision had to be made no later than 3:30 PM.

Major Thunderstorms in the forecast and I cancelled the event. Of course the storms came through earlier and by 6PM we had a beautiful summer evening. I still take crap for it to this day.........

Right now the sailors in Mobile need our support.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Last year I had just set anchor for the day on the ICW just north of Daytona (the day they canceled the race because of tornado threats) when a "white squall" came through. It set my boat over around 45 degrees... with bare poles! If I had canvas up, it would have knocked me down for sure. The gust must have been at least 75 mph, like a freight train coming through...scary. An A35 sat it out through the Fastnet tragedy, so the boat is not one easily knocked down. These things can be nasty even in the most unexpected of places. You don't need to venture offshore to get hit with this stuff. I cannot imagine the awful effect upon a fleet of small, light sailboats.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Stumble said:


> There were early morning thunderstorms that delayed the race. After the storms went through the models indicated weather stability for the rest of the day. With an outside chance of developing thunderstorms in the afternoon.


The morning coastal marine forecast included _*likely *_afternoon thunderstorms, and the 1342 forecast included a severe thunderstorm (>50 winds) watch. The local TV weather predictions included severe weather for Saturday afternoon as early as Friday and throughout Saturday am.


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## MSN2Travelers (Sep 12, 2006)

OK, beyond the second guessing the race organizers . . . I'm trying to understand the news reports. The press thinks every time a boat heels over it has "capsized". The Costa Concordia capsized. Experienced sailors know the difference between a knockdown and "going turtle" (capsize).

At this point, I am going to assume there were a number of knock downs with crew being ejected. It also appears quite a reward boaters didn't have their PFD's on when the storm hit.

Does anybody know if any of the boats were knocked down and actually sank (hatches open at knock down)?

Does anybody know if the missing were front the same boat?


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

MSN2Travelers said:


> OK, beyond the second guessing the race organizers . . . I'm trying to understand the news reports. The press thinks every time a boat heels over it has "capsized". The Costa Concordia capsized. Experienced sailors know the difference between a knockdown and "going turtle" (capsize).
> 
> At this point, I am going to assume there were a number of knock downs with crew being ejected. It also appears quite a reward boaters didn't have their PFD's on when the storm hit.
> 
> ...


Reports are incomplete...but there were light, open craft in the regatta.

Local footage and interviews with two groups tonight. Showed them collecting the parts of their trapeze catamaran that broke up and washed ashore.

Also reported sunken vessels, without details.

Tonight's reports are of two dead and five missing.


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

Very sad day indeed. Rather than second-guess what those folks did, or did not do, I ask what would *I* do if caught in a sudden squall in my area, on my boat? Do I maintain vigilance to avoid being caught completely off-guard? (if that's what happened) I'm not good 'nuff a sailor to negotiate any dacron with that kind of wind, so my first thought would be to east the sheets, and haul down the sails as fast as possible, don PFDs for everyone, and ride the squall under sticks. Barring a lightening strike or tornado, I would hope we could ride out just about any squall on our inland setting.

Not to armchair quarterback, but rather to learn, I wonder if the upset boats were trying to maneuver under sail, or just couldn't get sheets loose fast enough, or was local wave action sufficient to capsize them? I'm sure we'll get many reports in the days to come.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't have anything official just reports from people that were there and so most of my info is second hand or worse. But what I have been told is that at least three small cats broke up on a sea wall, a 20-22' monohull was pushed into a bridge and totaled but made it to safe harbor, two boats sank, 4-5 broken masts, and a few boats are on the bottom. 50+ people total were fished out of the water. 

Some of this may be overlapping I really don't know. I would consider all of it to be tentative at best at least for now.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

So, would proper procedure be to drop sails and throw a sea anchor of some sort tied to the bow in order to keep the vessel pointed into the wind? How much of a sea anchor is required? Do they make such things commercially? Forgive the ignorant questions but I don't recall reading much about sea anchors on this site so far.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

It is lacking in good taste to second guess a disaster, but I would like to know also.

Armchair Quarterback says, loose jib sheet, if you have time before you are knocked down lower the main and turn her into the wind on the iron genny that you magically started while dancing around. The outcome depends on weather you have 2 seconds, 10 seconds, or thank Poseidon a full minute.

Please feel free to cut me to ribbons.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

desert rat said:


> It is lacking in good taste to second guess a disaster, but I would like to know also.
> 
> Armchair Quarterback says, loose jib sheet, if you have time before you are knocked down lower the main and turn her into the wind on the iron genny that you magically started while dancing around. The outcome depends on weather you have 2 seconds, 10 seconds, or thank Poseidon a full minute.
> 
> Please feel free to cut me to ribbons.


OK, what if you're on a beach cat and have no "iron genny"? What should those people have done?

And what good does a bucket or drogue do on a beach cat? Sure, it would point you into the wind, but 3-4 foot chop from a storm would wash right over the trampoline and wash you overboard.

I think you should address these questions, because I have a funny feeling the missing/dead may have come from those boats.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

While we should try to learn lessons from any incident of this kind, we can't learn lessons until we learns some facts. That will take a couple of days at least. In fact, Fox News report in one of the first posts says that it was not clear that all of the missing were from boats that were in the regatta.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

I wonder what role racing played in captain's decisions?

That's not a criticism.

If I'm out day sailing and I see a line of squalls approaching I'm going to reef, maybe drop sail depending on how bad it looks.

Racers sail their boats much harder, so when weather is coming is there the feeling that you just sail on? In this case did those skippers get hit with far worse conditions than they would normally expect this time of year on Mobile Bay?

Again, I'm not criticizing just trying to understand. I sail to relax, I don't race.

I can't imagine being caught on a beach cat in those conditions.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Jim-

There isn't a blanket answer to your questions.
Not all racers think alike. Just as in cruising or day sailing, there are varying degrees of experience, ignorance and recklessness.

Even as a racer, I'm fairly conservative. I reef early or downshift headsails because being under control is much faster than flying big cloth and sailing on my ear, making tons of leeway. When looking at the forecast and prevailing conditions, I'm also more likely to bag a race than some of my competitors.
"Racing" does not automatically equal "reckless".

Frankly, there are far too few facts available about who was lost, what kind of boats they were in, whether they were even entered in the race, what kind of safety gear they had onboard, to even begin to analyze this event.

Forget racing. 

Every year on the Chesapeake we have to rescue "Skeeter and Booger", the liquored up fishermen, out on their 17 foot skiff, who get blasted by summer squalls because they don't carry a VHF and don't bother to check the weather.

Every year, my girlfriend (a state park ranger) ends up coordinating some sort of rescue effort down near Point Lookout, for kayakers and families in overloaded, open-bow powerboats setting out when black squall lines are plainly visible on the horizon.

Trust me people, yacht racers do NOT have a monopoly on bad judgement.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I'm curious as to how the other boats managed the tempest? Any first hand accounts as to how the corinthian sailor manged what is probably a "once in a lifetime" blow?
Damn, what an ugly day on the water. More interesting for me to hear how the weekend sailors managed in some really hang on for your life kinda conditions. Wow, the stories they can tell. Truly riveting. It probably doesn't get any scary then this. Good on all those guys that made it through!


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

I'm not questioning anyone's actions as I am a totally novice sailor, and if caught in this, I would be dead. But can I ask this: if you drop your jib and your mainsail, and have bare poles, and are in a 14 foot dinghy (the kind I'm looking at) or a 35 foot Tartan or Beneteau, would just the waves knock you over? I'm assuming without sails up, you are facing into the wind, where the waves come from, correct?? And I'm also assuming a 14 foot dinghy bare poled would be in more danger of being turtled than the 35 foot boat. Is this correct??

Because, again, as a total nitwit still, my reaction would be to drop the jib, drop the main and hang on. Which might be the totally wrong reaction. (And I hope to never be caught in the winds that these poor people saw. I know that where we race, many sailors depend on the committee-head to keep on top of the weather, so may not have the most up to date forecast themselves.) 

Thanks in advance for any knowledge shared.
Nancy


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

One of the reported five missing as of yesterday afternoon was found, at home.

Citizen help today on the bay being discouraged due to another squall line headed this way, and unrelated heavy rain already along coastal Alabama.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

I saw a clip on the news last light from a boat out in the regatta. While they were under bare poles, a nearby vessel still had their main up and was clearly in trouble. Hard to tell, but it looked like they hadn't even reduced sail to the first reef. 

It was mentioned before, but it bears mentioning again -- the bay is quite shallow, and there's a good amount of fetch involved. I suspect that wind driven waves were the real issue here. 

Even under bare poles, boats without aux power are going to be running with the wind (if the skipper/helmsman understands the situation fully) and may run out of room to maneuver. 

I do hope the CG and/or sailing mags do a thorough analysis and releases it to the public. I'm less than optimistic that we can count on the everyday media to do anything worthwhile on the seamanship aspects of this tragedy.


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

Nancyleeny said:


> I'm not questioning anyone's actions as I am a totally novice sailor, and if caught in this, I would be dead. But can I ask this: if you drop your jib and your mainsail, and have bare poles, and are in a 14 foot dinghy (the kind I'm looking at) or a 35 foot Tartan or Beneteau, would just the waves knock you over? I'm assuming without sails up, you are facing into the wind, where the waves come from, correct?? And I'm also assuming a 14 foot dinghy bare poled would be in more danger of being turtled than the 35 foot boat. Is this correct??
> 
> Because, again, as a total nitwit still, my reaction would be to drop the jib, drop the main and hang on. Which might be the totally wrong reaction. (And I hope to never be caught in the winds that these poor people saw. I know that where we race, many sailors depend on the committee-head to keep on top of the weather, so may not have the most up to date forecast themselves.)
> 
> ...


Nancy

Any boat irregardless of size or shape is most stable when the bow is pointed directly into the wind.

When waves are so high that water is crashing down onto the boat the boat may fill with water and sink.

That's why you want to close all hatches on bigger boats so the boat doesn't fill with water.

Problems occur when the wind and waves against the bow are too strong for the boats engine and the helmsman can't keep the bow into the wind. Boat will turn broadside and could capsize. With no motor a bare poled sailboat, or any boat for that matter, will turn broadside (sideways) to the wind. A skilled helmsman could "run with the wind" without an engine. The bow would be pointed directly downwind and the wind would be pushing the boat along. Hard to maintain,, if you get close to land drop anchor!

When you see a squall coming a sailors first instinct would be to put on PFD's, close hatches, reduce sail, start the engine, bow into the wind. Time is always an issue here, there just isn't time to do all these things at once. If you can see it coming you will be lucky just to reduce sail.

I suggest wearing PFD's at all times and always keep hatches closed when you leave the dock no matter what the conditions.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

SAT question: If a small planing boat under bare poles was in the middle of a 5 mile wide bay, and it was hit by a storm with 50kt+ winds that lasts for 20 minutes, what would it's position be?

Answer: Probably on the seawall

The situation was just FUBAR. Not too much they could have done at the time.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Nancyleeny said:


> I'm not questioning anyone's actions as I am a totally novice sailor, and if caught in this, I would be dead. But can I ask this: if you drop your jib and your mainsail, and have bare poles, and are in a 14 foot dinghy (the kind I'm looking at) or a 35 foot Tartan or Beneteau, would just the waves knock you over? I'm assuming without sails up, you are facing into the wind, where the waves come from, correct?? And I'm also assuming a 14 foot dinghy bare poled would be in more danger of being turtled than the 35 foot boat. Is this correct??
> 
> Because, again, as a total nitwit still, my reaction would be to drop the jib, drop the main and hang on. Which might be the totally wrong reaction. (And I hope to never be caught in the winds that these poor people saw. I know that where we race, many sailors depend on the committee-head to keep on top of the weather, so may not have the most up to date forecast themselves.)
> 
> ...


The problem with small open deck dinghies being hove-to will be the boat will be making way/drifting to downwind while possibly being well heeled over .... thus 'scooping' water into the boat as it drifts downwind with its leeward rail close to or under water - in the extreme conditions. IMO when in small dinghies - The best tactic for inland sailing is to get to windward as absolutely as far and as absolutely as fast as possible before the weather 'hits' and then: 1. _beach the boat _or anchor close to shore or 2. go with bare poles, use 'anything' for a drogue from the stern to keep the boat stern-to (or bow-to), and hope to hell the waves dont come over the stern (or bow) and flood/swamp the boat ... and hope to hell you have enough drift-room before you hit the leeward shore. 
Being ON or as close to the windward shore should have the least amount of wave action ... and the least distance to swim if you need to. Being close to a windward shore allows for anchoring in the relatively more shallow water, less fetch and wave action if you dont 'make it'. 
In threatening weather my preference is to sail (in any size boat) close to a windward shore; Ive run up onto the beach several times with my shallow drafted scows or just run up 'under' and anchored with my keelboat.

Better is to NEVER implicitly 'trust' broadcast NOAA (or race committee) weather predictions when there is any possibility of rapidly developing severe weather, and to keep a watchful eyeball for the development ... so to gain extra time. Broadcast predictions are for LARGE areas and 'embedded severity' can be well 'localized' and not included in the broadcast forecast/warning/advisories. 
However, If you listen exclusively to NOAA, undoubtedly you will miss a LOT of 'good'/prime sailing. For me, NOAA has joined the national 'risk adverse' thought frenzy and has increasingly become too risk adverse / 'dumbed-down' in its forecasting to be 'useful', especially when it comes to 'stink-weather'.

One of the VERY best ways to monitor developing adverse weather that I currently use is an iPhone APP: *Radar Weather* https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/myradar-weather-radar-forecast/id322439990?mt=8 .... allows/helps you to make a *real-time* decision of proper course (or reverse course) to potentially 'sneak' through the weakest parts of an approaching weather front .... but you have to understand what 'bow echos' (approaching and intensifying convex frontal shapes), etc. are, and then attempt to travel through the approaching concave (weakening) portions of a front where there is less wind and instability or 'weakness' of the 'front'. 
If you sail a lot, and sail long distances, I think you really need to in-depth study 'weather' and all the intricacies that make for 'weather bombs', clear air (white squall) fronts, rapidly developing and intensifying fronts, etc. .... something that is NEVER EVER included in a broadcast forecast or 'weather advisory'. I think, you really have to use your 'eyeballs' (or iPhone APP) and your own localized instant forecast as to which way to go ... and use your 'experience' to stay out OR simply stay in port OR to anchor under a windward shore when 'super-stink' bombs on top of you. 
A good but very _deeply_ technical text for this is: _Mariners Weather Handbook_ - Dashews ... (also good for when racing to find the strongest winds). Mariner's Weather Handbook: Steve Dashew, Linda Dashew: 9780965802826: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51GCXEnibHL 
There are other sailing weather texts slanted for 'racers' that focus on wind instabilities, intensifying venturi-effects (river mouths, cliffs, mountains, land/shoreline effects, etc. etc.).

Hope this helps.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

For Nancy's question: Unfortunately, while it might seem that the wind and waves will come from the same direction, that is often not the case. Especially when there is a squall line like the one in Mobile Bay, the winds will also often shift sharply and unpredictably. Pointing into the wind will not always get you pointed into the waves. As I said earlier, we need to get some real facts before we do a post mortem on this situation. We have no idea how boats did which were well prepared.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Andrewoliv, if that skilled helmsman was running directly downwind, I'm assuming sails are up. Isn't the risk of an accidental gybe great? 

Thankful for the explanation. There is SO MUCH to learn. Someone mentioned some good books about how to deal with bad weather -does anyone know any? And, yes, I know nothing beats experience, dealing with exponentially worse conditions over time. I'm hopeful I never get hit like this. 

Thank you,
Nancy


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Nancyleeny said:


> Andrewoliv, if that skilled helmsman was running directly downwind, I'm assuming sails are up. Isn't the risk of an accidental gybe great?
> 
> Thankful for the explanation. There is SO MUCH to learn. Someone mentioned some good books about how to deal with bad weather -does anyone know any? And, yes, I know nothing beats experience, dealing with exponentially worse conditions over time. I'm hopeful I never get hit like this.
> 
> ...


Live action here:





a whole host of books on the subject...get out on the water!


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

aeventyr60 said:


> Live action here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! And I will get out on the water as soon as the lakes totally unfreeze!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Nancy - though they are pretty dated, you should check out the Annapolis Book of Seamanship DVDs. Those are great.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Nan-

You don't have to run downwind under sails. The mast and rigging alone, can provide enough windage (exposed surface area) to propel the boat. 

Yes, there is a lack of stability that flow over the sails provides. You can compensate for that to a certain degree, by using the engine.

My low-informed opinion is that if you got caught in 50+ gusts in your hypothetical Pintail/Jester/Whatever, you'd be overwhelmed no matter what action you took. It is even more critical for you to be aware of your surroundings, and get to shore, before the storm line catches you.

You can buy a waterproof, handheld VHF radio and clip it to your PFD. Leave it on your local WX channel, and you can listen for advisories, as well as using your eyeballs to watch for key cloud formations.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Nancy - though they are pretty dated, you should check out the Annapolis Book of Seamanship DVDs. Those are great.


Here's a bit for the sailing dad's:

http://www.teamgnarly.org/docs/ParentCodeV3.pdf


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

BubbleheadMD, 
I think I would for sure be in trouble in high winds in a Pintail or Jester! Which is why I plan to keep it to the smaller Adirondack lakes near where I live - Schroon Lake and Brant lake. Both are long, but narrow, so I could swim my boat in if I had to, as long as the water isn't cold. I think I would have been in trouble with these winds even in the 34 foot Tartan I've been mooning over since last year. 

Smack, thank you for the recommendations. I'm off to check them out right now.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Nancyleeny said:


> I'm not questioning anyone's actions as I am a totally novice sailor, and if caught in this, I would be dead. But can I ask this: if you drop your jib and your mainsail, and have bare poles, and are in a 14 foot dinghy (the kind I'm looking at) or a 35 foot Tartan or Beneteau, would just the waves knock you over? I'm assuming without sails up, you are facing into the wind, where the waves come from, correct?? And I'm also assuming a 14 foot dinghy bare poled would be in more danger of being turtled than the 35 foot boat. Is this correct??
> 
> Because, again, as a total nitwit still, my reaction would be to drop the jib, drop the main and hang on. Which might be the totally wrong reaction. (And I hope to never be caught in the winds that these poor people saw. I know that where we race, many sailors depend on the committee-head to keep on top of the weather, so may not have the most up to date forecast themselves.)
> 
> ...


The larger boats would certainly be more stable than small daysailers with no weighted keel or with just a centerboard or similar keel. On a shallow lake like the one in this case, limited fetch is going to limit wave size greatly. What happens in shallow water is that once the wind reaches a certain speed, the wave tops will just be swept off and the entire surface turned to white foam. Small one designs don't have much of a chance when caught in something as described in this case. I'm thinking of my Lightning, a capable small sailboat. It would simply be flipped with bare poles in a 75 mph wind. Bigger boats will not be much affected by the small wave height. I'd be motoring with sails down with something like this coming over the horizon and have done exactly that on any number of occasions. The main challenge is keeping her head to wind under power and watching carefully for wind direction and gusts. I keep a set of ski goggles aboard. They come in really handy in being able to see ahead when a big blow comes through. Visibility can go to near zero in a squall.

Picture is coming into Hampton Roads from ocean...eek


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Not sure if this has already been linked to, but here's a longer video from a sailboat :






Note :

It takes 6 minutes to break out the lifejackets. For another 2-3 minutes, two of the crew are taking them off and putting them on again, so they clearly have no idea how to put them on.

The helmsperson never puts one on.

The skipper's first responsibility is for the safety of the crew. How about MAKING SURE that everyone has the lifejackets on properly? Should have been more pro-active.

I gave away lifejackets like those because they looked rubbish. Bought a set of the West Marine runabout ones, which secure around the torso and provide some warmth as well as bouyancy.

Also, you'll never see anyone on my boat in jeans.


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

Quick, dumb question - why would you head INTO the wind, instead of running away from it with the engine? The latter seems to make more sense as the relative wind velocity is reduced, but y'all saying to head into the wind.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

The video in post 59 raises a number of interesting points. 

First the storm is clearly visible and telegraphs it's presence at least 3 to 5 minutes before it hits. These black walls coming out of cu nims are always bad news. Anyone with an ounce of weather sense would be dropping sails and getting ready for a blow. 

Note the boats at about 1.30 and 2.30 with the mains still up. 

I wonder what triggers the crew member to go below and hand out the PFDs. I got no sound with my version. N.B. The reports say at least 2 boats around 25 ft got rolled/swamped and sank.

The coast guard report says most of the rescues were made by fellow racers. 

I would not have liked to be out in that in a beach cat. I wonder what the best survival strategy might be. Get it upside down and hold on? Or would hypothermia kick in too quickly.


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

Taking it on the quarter or turning upwind would depend on sea room ...also with all those boats out there in various degrees of trouble..you might want to have the more visibilty going downwind than turning into the waves and possibly getting alot more spray ...a pitching bow blocking forward viz etc... and higher chance of running into some fellow poor s.o.b flying downwind half outta control coming towards you. Running with the waves gives more control at times...especially if you have decent rudder inputs and good stability in your boats stern ...similar to when your running an inlet with the tide...Just some thoughts


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

I just watched the video. They saw trouble coming. The skipper got his sails down and secured. Got the engine running. Folded up the bimini and secured it. All the hatches are closed. A crew member got life jackets and handed them out to everyone. The helmsman lost their life jacket to the wind when they were trying to get it on but stayed focused on driving the boat.

If you watch the crew they are also keeping a good lookout and twice call out the presence of other boats coming out of the rain.

I didn't see jacklines and the helmsman wasn't clipped in - but then I don't have jack lines on my boat when sailing the bay. 

The helmsman kept the boat moving and they weren't taking green water over the bow. You can nit pick some things but all in all I thought these guys did OK and the boat and crew handled what was thrown at them.

What surprised me is that other boats around them had full sail up, not even a reef in. The other surprise was I didn't hear the VHF squawking in the background. In those conditions wouldn't you have the radio on?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

alctel said:


> Quick, dumb question - why would you head INTO the wind, instead of running away from it with the engine? The latter seems to make more sense as the relative wind velocity is reduced, but y'all saying to head into the wind.


Guess it's just a preference. If there is sea room, running under control might work although it might be more difficult to maintain heading with a following sea. Broaching is always a possibility when on a run. Different hulls will handle differently as well. I have always headed up to look in the direction of the wind and waves and then just try to maintain position until it blows over. I've always liked the idea of keeping the pointy end into the waves


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

If there were a many beach cats and small day sailers out in the regatta, it's a miracle there weren't more people hurt or worse.

I wouldn't want to be out in a small open boat in those conditions.


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

smurphny said:


> Guess it's just a preference. If there is sea room, running under control might work although it might be more difficult to maintain heading with a following sea. Broaching is always a possibility when on a run. Different hulls will handle differently as well. I have always headed up to look in the direction of the wind and waves and then just try to maintain position until it blows over. I've always liked the idea of keeping the pointy end into the waves


Depends on the kind of waves too...I mean..these waves in Mobile bay are similar to what we can see around Tampa Bay when it's really kickin up...they are high frequency...every couple of seconds... and since your in 8-15 feet of water most of the time they max out around 4-6 feet often though reports from Mobile Bay were higher...I think someone said...Your going to get hammered trying to stay pointed into these under power but if your out of sea-room this might be a strategy with a nimble helm...especially if your just trying to stay stationary and ride over each one...like you said..sorta treading water...


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

souljour2000 said:


> Depends on the kind of waves too...I mean..these waves in Mobile bay are similar to what we can see around Tampa Bay when it's really kickin up...they are high frequency...every couple of seconds... and since your in 8-15 feet of water most of the time they max out around 4-6 feet often though reports from Mobile Bay were higher...I think someone said...Your going to get hammered trying to stay pointed into these under power but if your out of sea-room this might be a strategy with a nimble helm...especially if your just trying to stay stationary and ride over each one...like you said..sorta treading water...


.... or simply use the engine to help 'hold you in place'.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

We got hit by something similar last year as we were coming into Galveston from a 150-mile offshore delivery. This is about 8 minutes before it caught us...










It was dawn and we saw the skirts of this thing forming a few miles away over land. We immediately sent the boys below, buttoned everything up, reefed, and tethered in. First gust was high 40s, then sustained 30s for about 30 minutes. Then done. We were fine. In fact, it was fun.

You can see these things coming - you just have to take action right then, and not wait and guess.

To that end, if you think you have to be the kind of "weatherman" that plans everything around avoiding all squalls, even spankers like this one, you probably shouldn't be sailing (beach cats notwithstanding).


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

JimMcGee said:


> I just watched the video. They saw trouble coming. The skipper got his sails down and secured. Got the engine running. Folded up the bimini and secured it. All the hatches are closed. A crew member got life jackets and handed them out to everyone. The helmsman lost their life jacket to the wind when they were trying to get it on but stayed focused on driving the boat.
> 
> If you watch the crew they are also keeping a good lookout and twice call out the presence of other boats coming out of the rain.
> 
> ...


I agree. I thought they handled things pretty well. They certainly waited too long to get the PFDs and foul weather gear out, but they did get the sails down and engine running in plenty of time. And they had no trouble controlling the boat.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Couple question about the video

should they have had a sea anchor in (if they didn't) or when you are under motor you don't need it

Also, should they have had the PDF's on sooner?

second question just answered


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

titustiger27 said:


> should they have had a sea anchor in (if they didn't) or when you are under motor you don't need it


Keep in mind this regatta is on an inland bay surrounded by land on all four sides. The cut into Mobile Bay is narrow enough to throw a baseball across. These boats were not expecting or really prepared for the type of storm a sea anchor would be useful for.

Secondly with a water depth of 9-15 feet a sea anchor wouldn't have done any good. It is far more likely it would just get tangled up in detritus on the bottom than actually slow down the boats drift.


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

When in trouble keep your bow pointed into the wind. I sail in the Chesapeake with shallow water, steep waves and short intervals.

I have also sailed off the coast of Maine with larger swells.

Never ran into a situation where I thought it made sense to run with the wind in a big blow.

I should point out that there are experienced sailors that would have left up some sail and weathered the storm. And would argue that is the best option. Don't disagree with them just that your level of experience needs to be quite high.


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

*Now I Gotta Ask*

According to the National Weather Service:

A thunderstorm watch for all of southern Alabama, including Mobile Bay, was issued around 9:15 a.m. Saturday, alerting all residents in the affected areas to remain vigilant of rapidly changing conditions,

How do the organizers and over 100 captains ignore a "Thunderstorm Watch".

During the month of July around Annapolis where I sail almost every daily marine forecast has "chance of thunderstorms" in the forecast. So I understand if I heeded that comment I would never sail in July.

But I have never ignored a "Thunderstorm Watch" is that common in the forecast down there?


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

One of the things that should be remembered about Mobile Bay is that the main channel's got shoal water on both sides -- difficult to assess individual skippers' decisions to run or fight into the wind without knowing their positions in the Bay.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

I just watched the video on youtube posted in this thread of a 36 foot boat riding out the storm. The person who posted the video was getting grief for passing a boat that still had its sails up, clearly in trouble. From what I could see, this one boat did a lot of things differently than I have learned here.

The helmswoman wasn't steering for fear of lightning. I assume there was an auto pilot? No one put on a PFD until way into the storm and then they had these crappy ones. One guy was drinking, and it looked like alcohol. Is that SOP on boats in storms? They kept going in and out of the cabin, which I assume should have been closed. Other commenters pointed out other things they did that weren't great. 

I think what bothered me the most was their lack of concern for the other boat they saw. I get that it might have been difficult for them to turn around and help. But for the helms-woman to be hooting and hollering about how fast the wind was and how fast they were going, knowing how many people might have been in trouble, just hit my gut wrong. I wish I hadn't watched it. I hope the people on that small boat are OK.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

*Re: Now I Gotta Ask*



andrewoliv said:


> According to the National Weather Service:
> 
> A thunderstorm watch for all of southern Alabama, including Mobile Bay, was issued around 9:15 a.m. Saturday, alerting all residents in the affected areas to remain vigilant of rapidly changing conditions,
> 
> How do the organizers and over 100 captains ignore a "Thunderstorm Watch".


I believe that I read that a line of thunderstorms had gone through already, followed by beautiful weather and forecasts that the weather was supposed to continue. How many times have people here "waited out" a storm and headed out after it passed? It sounds like that's what happened here. Apparently they weren't expecting another line to come through.


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> andrewoliv said:
> 
> 
> > According to the National Weather Service:
> ...


TakeFive- if you read earlier posts the second front for that afternoon had been forecast. By the NWS and local TV.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

Nancyleeny said:


> The helmswoman wasn't steering for fear of lightning. I assume there was an auto pilot?


Wondered the same thing; but looking at the vid, I didn't see an autohelm installed.


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

*watched video*

Why wasn't the boat into the wind?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Yes, there was a moment when she let go of the wheel and discussion about the lightning. Then, she resumed steering. I feel that she did a fine job of keeping the boat on it's feet and stable during the video.

Fear of lightning while touching metal on deck is pointless. If you're soaking wet, there is an electrical path from you, to all the rigging, so letting go of the metal will not protect you. A bad enough strike can cause damage down in the dry cabin, and in the boat's structure as the current searches for a place to exit. Just drive the damn boat.

Regarding the vessel with sails:

They could have attempted to make contact via VHF, but I think they were afraid to attempt to stop because they might have lost control of the boat.
They were moving and stable, and were reluctant to mess that up and have TWO boats dumping people into the water. We don't even really know that the other boat was in distress or what happened afterwards. They may have got their sails down and followed the boat in the video.

I'm not defending the decision, just attempting to provide some insight.

In general, the behavior you witnessed, is the behavior of people who usually sail in very sheltered water, and don't have a lot of experience with heavy weather:

- Low quality PFD's.
- Unfamiliarity with donning PFD's.
- Helmsperson never relieved so that she could don a PFD.
- Low situational awareness, failure to offer assistance.
- Unnecessary extra people on deck. (2 could have been belowdecks)
- No harness or tethers.
- Failure to secure the main cabin hatch.

Things I feel that they did right:

- Sails doused and secured in time.
- Most of them DID don PFD's eventually.
- Run downwind with the engine for stability.

I feel that they owe their well being as much to the sheer size of their boat as any skill or seamanship that they displayed. 39 feet in that tiny bay can offer decent stability and shelter.

The people on beach cats and day-sailors were screwed.



Nancyleeny said:


> I just watched the video on youtube posted in this thread of a 36 foot boat riding out the storm. The person who posted the video was getting grief for passing a boat that still had its sails up, clearly in trouble. From what I could see, this one boat did a lot of things differently than I have learned here.
> 
> The helmswoman wasn't steering for fear of lightning. I assume there was an auto pilot? No one put on a PFD until way into the storm and then they had these crappy ones. One guy was drinking, and it looked like alcohol. Is that SOP on boats in storms? They kept going in and out of the cabin, which I assume should have been closed. Other commenters pointed out other things they did that weren't great.
> 
> I think what bothered me the most was their lack of concern for the other boat they saw. I get that it might have been difficult for them to turn around and help. But for the helms-woman to be hooting and hollering about how fast the wind was and how fast they were going, knowing how many people might have been in trouble, just hit my gut wrong. I wish I hadn't watched it. I hope the people on that small boat are OK.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Nancyleeny said:


> I just watched the video on youtube posted in this thread of a 36 foot boat riding out the storm. The person who posted the video was getting grief for passing a boat that still had its sails up, clearly in trouble. From what I could see, this one boat did a lot of things differently than I have learned here.
> 
> The helmswoman wasn't steering for fear of lightning. I assume there was an auto pilot? No one put on a PFD until way into the storm and then they had these crappy ones. One guy was drinking, and it looked like alcohol. Is that SOP on boats in storms? They kept going in and out of the cabin, which I assume should have been closed. Other commenters pointed out other things they did that weren't great.
> 
> I think what bothered me the most was their lack of concern for the other boat they saw. I get that it might have been difficult for them to turn around and help. But for the helms-woman to be hooting and hollering about how fast the wind was and how fast they were going, knowing how many people might have been in trouble, just hit my gut wrong. I wish I hadn't watched it. I hope the people on that small boat are OK.


I agree completely. That little boat was certainly in danger and the boat with the video was in no danger whatsoever. Seems to me they were compelled to at least slow down and offer assistance and check the other boat's situation. If worried about lightning, you probably shouldn't own a sailboat. The simple fact is that you are often out when thunderstorms pop up.

The boards should always be in and secured in bad weather. Looking at the flimsy plexiglass "shutters" on that boat, they're probably next to useless anyway.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

If I understand it, the water is 15-20 ft. deep and shore is never more than 5 miles away. Instead of running or motoring into the wind with limited visibility and sea room, wouldn't a better solution be to drop the sails and just anchor? The anchor would hold bow into wind, and even if dragging, movement over the ground would be slowed. Additionally, if boat had an engine, use the engine to help hold position with anchor deployed. The sky usually gives warning that one is in for a blow, so there really is time to take action. Of course, sometimes people are just macho, especially in groups. No one want's to be deemed a chicken...be brave, press on and tease those who aren't brave.


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## nolesailor (Oct 29, 2009)

While this was certainly a tragedy, I am quite surprised at the negative comments directed towards the boat that posted the youtube video. While I've only seen clips on the news, I've been able to discern quite a bit from this board. This is a boat that appears to have ridden the storm out fine...faced with quite possibly the worst weather they've ever encountered, and those on this board feel the need to criticize them. While some have said that overall, they did pretty good - and I agree completely - most seem to have an issue with something. 

NancyCleeny - from what I've gathered from your posts you may not even own a sailboat, or have much, if any, sailing experience. To come on here and post that you were disgusted from what you saw and wish that you had never watched that video is appalling to me. The issue with not wanting to touch the wheel due to lighting is also one I've heard...if you are struck a big metal wheel in your hand may not be what you want to be holding...but, like all things with lighting, I have no idea if that is true or not....there are many myths with lighting as to what works and what doesn't. You comment about offering assistance to the other boat is valid, but without knowing specifics and faced with possibly the worst weather they've encountered, they many not have felt safe enough to do so. I don't mean to single you out, as others appear to have similar comments...

This was certainly a tragedy all around, but negativity directed towards the sailors on that boat are unwarranted, IMHO. They were likely bay/coastal cruisers caught in a bad storm...I don't believe they posted that video as a "how to" or instructional video...


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

smurphny said:


> ...Seems to me they were compelled to at least slow down and offer assistance and check the other boat's situation...


Um, no.

The captain's first responsibility is to his/her own vessel and crew. The captain's got to make the decision -- and it's not an easy one -- about whether attempting to render aid is a net plus or a net negative. There are plenty of examples of situations that got worse _simply because someone made a decision to try and help._

We can't tell from the video what their actions were after the conditions abated. They may or may not have come about gone back to assist in the search efforts.

These guys did a good job maintaining control within their own capabilities and experience, but IMO they were certainly pushing the edge of their envelope.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

smurphny said:


> I agree completely. That little boat was certainly in danger and the boat with the video was in no danger whatsoever.


The skipper who shot the video was interviewed. He expressed regret for not more aggressively checking on the welfare of the smaller vessel's crew.

Turns out the smaller vessel turtled and swamped, and the crew was rescued.

Most of those caught out in this storm were in conditions exceeding their previous experience, and in many cases exceeding the capabilities of vessels and crews.

A skipper's first obligation is to his own crew, and approaching an out of control vessel while having limited control of your own vessel is a recipe for disaster.


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

*learning tool*



nolesailor said:


> While this was certainly a tragedy, I am quite surprised at the negative comments directed towards the boat that posted the youtube video. While I've only seen clips on the news, I've been able to discern quite a bit from this board. This is a boat that appears to have ridden the storm out fine...faced with quite possibly the worst weather they've ever encountered, and those on this board feel the need to criticize them. While some have said that overall, they did pretty good - and I agree completely - most seem to have an issue with something.
> 
> NancyCleeny - from what I've gathered from your posts you may not even own a sailboat, or have much, if any, sailing experience. To come on here and post that you were disgusted from what you saw and wish that you had never watched that video is appalling to me. The issue with not wanting to touch the wheel due to lighting is also one I've heard...if you are struck a big metal wheel in your hand may not be what you want to be holding...but, like all things with lighting, I have no idea if that is true or not....there are many myths with lighting as to what works and what doesn't. You comment about offering assistance to the other boat is valid, but without knowing specifics and faced with possibly the worst weather they've encountered, they many not have felt safe enough to do so. I don't mean to single you out, as others appear to have similar comments...
> 
> This was certainly a tragedy all around, but negativity directed towards the sailors on that boat are unwarranted, IMHO. They were likely bay/coastal cruisers caught in a bad storm...I don't believe they posted that video as a "how to" or instructional video...


I think most of us are just trying to learn something from this situation. We may sound critical but the analysis raises some questions.

Questions I ask myself:

1. Would I have even left the dock given the weather report? Event officials and over 100 captains did. Why?

2. I have seen two videos of two different boats. Both running with the wind. That goes against all of my 40+ years of sailing experience. What am I missing? (Trying to learn something)

3. On the second video I saw lots of things that go against my personal procedures in that situation. So it is interesting to see how other people handle rough weather.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: learning tool*



andrewoliv said:


> Questions I ask myself:
> 
> 1. Would I have even left the dock given the weather report? Event officials and over 100 captains did. Why?


A chance of afternoon thunderstorms is a fairly common forecast in July and August on Barnegat Bay. We've gone out with that forecast. I'll drop sail and fire up the diesel if something nasty is bearing down on us. In a shallow bay a short chop can build quickly and in parts of the bay you don't have a lot of room before you run out of depth. I'll motor into the wind unless I'm restricted by shallows.

Someone mentioned their not being tethered in and not dropping in hatch boards.

I don't think either is unusual for bay sailors. My boat isn't rigged for jack lines and in their case the seas weren't all that steep or breaking. There was no green water breaking over the boat and no green water rolling in the open transom. If wave heights had increased they may have gone to hatch boards (assuming their boat has them).



BubbleheadMd said:


> In general, the behavior you witnessed, is the behavior of people who usually sail in very sheltered water, and don't have a lot of experience with heavy weather


Absolutely right. I know I don't have that experience. I feel safer doing what they did - drop sail and fire up the engine.



BubbleheadMd said:


> The people on beach cats and day-sailors were screwed.


+1


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Nole-

I'm sorry if my comments about the boat in the video sounded negative. All I was really trying to say, is that they probably acted in accordance with their experience level.

If all you ever know is sunny days, you're kind of at a loss for what to do when it storms.

I did say that the driver did a good job of keeping the boat stable.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I've sailed upwind and downwind in 35kts.
I believe that 35kts is the upper limit for my working jib and single-reef mainsail.

For anything worse, I'll need another reef and storm jib.

Andre- 
My understanding is that motoring into the wind is a tactic best for powerboats.
- Not many sailboats (if any) can motor into 65kts and make any headway at all.
- Sailing or motoring upwind in 40, 50, 60kts just beats the crap out of you and your vessel. Especially in a shallow bay chop where you're leaping off of wave faces into the trough at 6 or 7 kts.
- Wind force increases exponentially. 60kts plus 6 or 7 kts of apparent wind just makes things worse.
- Running off at 10 kts reduces 60kts to 50kts of apparent wind.

The trick to running off though, is that you need sea room. In the Chesapeake, there is precious little of that. However, there are many places to duck into, as you well know.


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

What could they have done to help that other boat they went past? If they tried to turn to help, wouldn't they have been knocked straight over?


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I'm inclined to cut all these guys/girls some slack. They were out there, we weren't. And yes, trying to round upwind could have been a knockdown when beam-to, the boat may take it but the un-clipped crew, not as much.

I've heard, "when there's a collision at sea, there are many wise men on shore". Yes, we do have that tendency. 

I've been caught in 50-plus that "came out of nowhere" with reefed main, roller-"reefed" jib that chose to shake out of the furl, got caught aback, big knockdown. Lifejackets yes, tethers no. We got through it but it didn't last an hour the way the Mobile squall did. And running before it would limit your chances of getting caught aback if the jib furler got loose, and would reduce your apparent wind buy a good bit. If you have searoom, why the criticism?

Who I feel for besides the grieving families are the race chairs. They must feel just awful, but it's still the skippers' decision of last resort whether to sail not.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

nolesailor said:


> While this was certainly a tragedy, I am quite surprised at the negative comments directed towards the boat that posted the youtube video. While I've only seen clips on the news, I've been able to discern quite a bit from this board. This is a boat that appears to have ridden the storm out fine...faced with quite possibly the worst weather they've ever encountered, and those on this board feel the need to criticize them. While some have said that overall, they did pretty good - and I agree completely - most seem to have an issue with something.
> 
> NancyCleeny - from what I've gathered from your posts you may not even own a sailboat, or have much, if any, sailing experience. To come on here and post that you were disgusted from what you saw and wish that you had never watched that video is appalling to me. The issue with not wanting to touch the wheel due to lighting is also one I've heard...if you are struck a big metal wheel in your hand may not be what you want to be holding...but, like all things with lighting, I have no idea if that is true or not....there are many myths with lighting as to what works and what doesn't. You comment about offering assistance to the other boat is valid, but without knowing specifics and faced with possibly the worst weather they've encountered, they many not have felt safe enough to do so. I don't mean to single you out, as others appear to have similar comments...
> 
> This was certainly a tragedy all around, but negativity directed towards the sailors on that boat are unwarranted, IMHO. They were likely bay/coastal cruisers caught in a bad storm...I don't believe they posted that video as a "how to" or instructional video...


Nolesailor,
I didn't realize you needed to own a sailboat to have a moral compass. I hope when I buy a sailboat next week, I will get as wise and moral as you so obviously are. On second thought, after seeing that video, with the woman at the helm "whooo-hooing" in glee, enjoying the wind and waves, never even thinking about those they passed, you know what? I don't think I need a sailboat to say that this was crappy, insensitive behavior. I was sick to my stomach, from thousands of miles away. Second guessing?? Yup. And I pray I would never be that selfish to "whoo-hoo" after seeing another boat in trouble, even if I can't help.

And from the comments on youtube, which you didn't watch, many people who are sailors had the same opinion.

So thanks, but I will stick to my own moral compass,
Nancy

EDITED: And it seems that not only did you not see the video, you did not read my comment correctly. I said, I get that they might not have been able to stop, but the "whoo-hooing" of the woman bothered me. Also it looked like a man was drinking from a flask during the incident. Your comment mischaracterized what I said.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: learning tool*



andrewoliv said:


> I think most of us are just trying to learn something from this situation. We may sound critical but the analysis raises some questions.
> 
> Questions I ask myself:
> 
> 1. Would I have even left the dock given the weather report? Event officials and over 100 captains did. Why?


I assume from what I've read it was because the weather report was a bit vague. And the report indicated _thunderstorms_ - not "sustained storms". As has been said repeatedly, if you insist on never sailing if a thunderstorm/squall is forecast, you'll probably never sail...especially on inland waters. This thunderstorm just happened to be a monster. It happens.



andrewoliv said:


> 2. I have seen two videos of two different boats. Both running with the wind. That goes against all of my 40+ years of sailing experience. What am I missing? (Trying to learn something)


Why bash into it? Why leave sail up and try to quarter it or heave to? We saw what that wind did to another boat with just a main up. And are you going to go out on deck and raise storm sails?

Also, touching on a comment above, anchoring in the open would have been a very bad move. Between the wave action and wind, stuff would have broken for sure. This would only be a last resort on my list if I were out of sea room.

If the sea state is such that you can control the boat, downwind reduces a lot of pressure on everything. Being in a smallish, shallow bay - and seeing that the waves were flattened by the rain - making them more swells, it seems a very good call to me. Again - this is a key difference between a short-lived thunderstorm/squall on inland waters - and a sustained storm off-shore.



andrewoliv said:


> 3. On the second video I saw lots of things that go against my personal procedures in that situation. So it is interesting to see how other people handle rough weather.


These guys did a lot of things I wouldn't typically do either - but they got their boat through it and everyone home safely. In that regard - they did everything right.

As for the comments above about stopping to help, I totally agree with Porfin and Fryewe. Unless one has lots of experience in handling a boat in these conditions - the middle of a weather bomb was not the right place or right time to help. It sucks, but it's true.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Nancy-

Try for a moment, to set the emotional aspect aside and look at this from a strictly fact-based, risk vs. gain analysis:

If these people could barely protect themselves in a storm like this, what value would they have been, to the smaller boat?

The only thing their hooting and hollering proves, is that these people lacked the self-awareness to realize that they were in real trouble. It is NOT an indicator that they possessed the seamanship skills to go back and help the smaller vessel.

These people weren't tethered on, and had the minimum, legally required PFD's. The risk of collision, injury or losing their own people was greater than the possible gain of helping the other boat. All they probably would have done, was make the situation worse, and give rescuers even more work to do.

I'm not saying that these people don't need an attitude adjustment, but this isn't reality TV. Making emotional decisions gets people injured or dead. As skipper, your FIRST responsibility is to YOUR crew and boat. You render aid only if you think you can do so, safely and effectively. You're not the USCG, and you don't put untrained, ill-equipped people at risk, on the pointy end of your boat and tell them to "help those poor people".

Bottom line: For _these_ people, the high risk of hurting or losing more people, and possibly sinking another vessel, was not worth the slim reward of rendering effective aid to that other boat. These folks were "tra-la-la'ing" because they didn't really understand the severity of their circumstances.

Although I admire your moral compass, in this case, it has led you astray.


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

I assume from what I've read it was because the weather report was a bit vague. And the report indicated _thunderstorms_ - not "sustained storms". As has been said repeatedly, if you insist on never sailing if a thunderstorm/squall is forecast, you'll probably never sail...especially on inland waters. This thunderstorm just happened to be a monster. It happens.

Andrew: As documented by the NWS there was a Thunderstorm Watch up for the afternoon/evening and a second front was clearly forecasted. That doesn't sound vague to me. God knows I have gone out when the forecast says "chance of thunderstorms" but never in a Watch. Yes I have been caught but nothing that violent.

Why bash into it? Why leave sail up and try to quarter it or heave to? We saw what that wind did to another boat with just a main up. And are you going to go out on deck and raise storm sails?

Andrew: I would have pulled down the main, furled the jib and motored into the wind. I wasn't suggesting heaving to or putting up storm sails.

Also, touching on a comment above, anchoring in the open would have been a very bad move. Between the wave action and wind, stuff would have broken for sure. This would only be a last resort on my list if I were out of sea room.

Andrew: Point taken. Good advice.

If the sea state is such that you can control the boat, downwind reduces a lot of pressure on everything. Being in a smallish, shallow bay - and seeing that the waves were flattened by the rain - making them more swells, it seems a very good call to me. Again - this is a key difference between a short-lived thunderstorm/squall on inland waters - and a sustained storm off-shore.

Andrew: I can understand this point of view. But my personal preference would still be upwind. 6 to 1 half dozen the other I guess.

These guys did a lot of things I wouldn't typically do either - but they got their boat through it and everyone home safely. In that regard - they did everything right.

Andrew: The ends justify the means and your correct in pointing out everyone got home safe. I should have pointed that out in my earlier post.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Nancy-
> 
> Try for a moment, to set the emotional aspect aside and look at this from a strictly fact-based, risk vs. gain analysis:
> 
> ...


If you read my words again, I said I can see if they couldn't go back. As a novice sailor, I'm not capable of making that judgement. What made me sick is that woman at the helm, obviously gleeful, even after seeing that other boat in trouble, and from the comments of the people on her boat, they knew that smaller boat was in trouble. Some concern would have been nice to see. Not glee.

That's what bothered me. And now, I'll bow out of this discussion, as I realize my opinion isn't popular. Which I can certainly live with.
Nancy


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

I have watched strong thunderstorms similar to this blow across Santa Rosa Sound with 50+ knot winds. The sound is only 2-3 nm wide and a storm blowing out of the north can put you on the beach in short order. The terrain is very flat and the storms can be monitored for direction and intensity.

I have watched 30+ footers that can't evade a storm strike all sail, start their engines, anchor, and use engine power to limit the strain on their rodes and successfully ride out the half hour to forty five minute blow. I think this is a wise tactic with a lee shore at hand and limited aux power.

Small craft...sail boards, dinghies, pontoon boats, runabouts and other shoal draft vessels simply head to the gently sloping sandy beach and beach their boats.


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## nolesailor (Oct 29, 2009)

Nancyleeny said:


> Nolesailor,
> I didn't realize you needed to own a sailboat to have a moral compass. I hope when I buy a sailboat next week, I will get as wise and moral as you so obviously are. On second thought, after seeing that video, with the woman at the helm "whooo-hooing" in glee, enjoying the wind and waves, never even thinking about those they passed, you know what? I don't think I need a sailboat to say that this was crappy, insensitive behavior. I was sick to my stomach, from thousands of miles away. Second guessing?? Yup. And I pray I would never be that selfish to "whoo-hoo" after seeing another boat in trouble, even if I can't help.
> 
> And from the comments on youtube, which you didn't watch, many people who are sailors had the same opinion.
> ...


You have every right to stick to your moral compass...I hope we all do. I would hope that your moral compass would also extend to your need to pass judgment on others...and while most comments/criticisms on this board were generally directed towards what they themselves may have done in that situation, yours was the only one I recalled that turned personal towards the sailors, an in fact made you "sick to your stomach."

I agree with the post that everyone cut them some slack...in my opinion they've done nothing to warrant this.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Nancyleeny said:


> If you read my words again, I said I can see if they couldn't go back. As a novice sailor, I'm not capable of making that judgement. What made me sick is that woman at the helm, obviously gleeful, even after seeing that other boat in trouble, and from the comments of the people on her boat, they knew that smaller boat was in trouble. Some concern would have been nice to see. Not glee.


If we're talking about the same boat (the one to starboard with the main up that was heeling quite a bit - around 2:35) - I wouldn't call that "in trouble". At least not at the point of what I saw in the video.

It looked like there were 3 people on the rail, with the main up (looks like that they had 1 reef in) - with the main sheet completely blown. Yes, they were in a precarious spot - way too much canvass and beam on to the waves, but they weren't in need of rescue at that point. No way.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

smackdaddy said:


> If we're talking about the same boat (the one to starboard with the main up that was heeling quite a bit - around 2:35) - I wouldn't call that "in trouble". At least not at the point of what I saw in the video.
> 
> It looked like there were 3 people on the rail, with the main up (looks like that they had 1 reef in) - with the main sheet completely blown. Yes, they were in a precarious spot - way too much canvass and beam on to the waves, but they weren't in need of rescue at that point. No way.


I just read that they capsized shortly after the big boat passed. But there seems to be a lot of confusion still. Kind of like Everest. 
Nancy


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

fryewe said:


> I have watched 30+ footers that can't evade a storm strike all sail, start their engines, anchor, and use engine power to limit the strain on their rodes and successfully ride out the half hour to forty five minute blow. I think this is a wise tactic with a lee shore at hand and limited aux power.


I think the discerning factor in anchor or not to anchor is sea room . I suggested anchoring was a good idea but that suggestion was based on an assumption of limited sea room. Also true for the situation you describe above.

Smackdaddy's comment was based on an assumption of plenty of searoom
If your choice is get blown aground or anchor, then anchor. Otherwise avoid anchoring and ride it out


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

I agree with Smackdaddy here. In that video that boat did not appear to be in distress.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

andrewoliv said:


> I agree with Smackdaddy here. In that video that boat did not appear to be in distress.


Are we talking at 2:40-3:00 on the video? They're on the rail on that main-up boat, looks like they're trying to bear off (?) but boom-end drags in the water so they can't. In the last view they may have rounded up some but I can't tell. I would say they are fellow squall-sufferers but not a distress case or an assistance case at that point, they are still trying to maneuver the boat and I can see a "rescue" attempt going more wrong than leaving them alone.

Also it didn't sound as though the woo-hoo related to the boat off their stbd side. I could be wrong on this but anyway. I appreciate the rescue-instinct and am quick to try it if I can, but I don't see this one as reaching that moral-choice clarity right versus wrong. This was just the fog of war?


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

It certainly wasn't making any of the commonly accepted signs of distress.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Nancyleeny said:


> I just read that they capsized shortly after the big boat passed. But there seems to be a lot of confusion still.


That may be true. But at the point the decision needed to be made, they didn't appear to be in real distress. I would have made the same call that she did in that moment. No question.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> That little boat was certainly in danger and the boat with the video was in no danger whatsoever.


Exactly, the boat with the video "in no danger" was running downwind under baresticks, the "little boat" "in danger"was wind on the beam, full main, crew on the rail, later capsize.
I prefer to run downwind personally. And I'd finish my beer and maybe hoot and holler a little.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

PorFin said:


> Um, no.
> 
> The captain's first responsibility is to his/her own vessel and crew. The captain's got to make the decision -- and it's not an easy one -- about whether attempting to render aid is a net plus or a net negative. There are plenty of examples of situations that got worse _simply because someone made a decision to try and help._
> 
> ...


As I stated, the video boat was in no danger. They were easily traveling downwind under power and the seas were not threatening them in any way. If there was a danger of broaching well maybe there was a reason to not offer assistance. That was obviously not the case. I can assure you, in that boat in those conditions, I certainly would have made it over to that little boat to determine if they were ok. I've found that there are those who help and those who don't. Seems to be genetic.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

fryewe said:


> The skipper who shot the video was interviewed. He expressed regret for not more aggressively checking on the welfare of the smaller vessel's crew.
> 
> Turns out the smaller vessel turtled and swamped, and the crew was rescued.
> 
> ...


Luckily, they were rescued. How would they have felt if those people had drowned after deciding to make no attempt to help? Sorry, in a situation like that, you must help even if it means endangering yourself which was not the case here. At the very least they should have stood by until help arrived.


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## alctel (Jan 25, 2014)

Wouldn't they have been knocked down as soon as they turned abeam?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Lets assume they went back for the boat in marginal distress for a moment. What would you suggest they do? Neither boat has towing gear, there is no way to pull up along side and take the crew onboard, the 'rescue' boat certainly couldn't have helped them shorten sail or gain control. 

So the only thing the second boat could possibly do is stand by close enough to hope to rescue someone if they did go in the water. With visibility dropping to less than 50 feet they would have thus been forced to maneuver in extremely close proximity to a distressed vessel that is marginal control. The very proximity also reduces the ability of the smaller boat's skipper to freely use what little sea room there was to his best advantage.

In short the only thing the 'rescue' boat could have done is make things worse, at least until conditions moderated and both boats could maneuver freely.


Keep in mind that two boats sank after colliding. While one was trying to rescue people from the other.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

smurphny said:


> Luckily, they were rescued. How would they have felt if those people had drowned after deciding to make no attempt to help? Sorry, in a situation like that, you must help even if it means endangering yourself which was not the case here. At the very least they should have stood by until help arrived.


Same is the other ways.. so they try to assist and they capsize (and that is bad enough) how would the other boat feel?


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## Phitod (Apr 30, 2014)

*Re: Now I Gotta Ask*



andrewoliv said:


> According to the National Weather Service:
> 
> A thunderstorm watch for all of southern Alabama, including Mobile Bay, was issued around 9:15 a.m. Saturday, alerting all residents in the affected areas to remain vigilant of rapidly changing conditions,
> 
> ...


I sail in Pensacola Bay just east of Mobile. The weather for the whole region that weekend was predicted just as you describe. I was disappointed all week that I might not be able to sail for a second weekend in a row due to thunderstorms. We managed to get on the water that morning, but it wasn't all that relaxing to me. (I'm a fair weather sailor).
We actually went in about an hour early, around 12:00, because we knew that the wind was trending higher, and the sea state was starting to deteriorate. I was at home when the front hit our area. It was very fierce and very fast.

When I heard of this news, I was really surprised so many boats went out. Especially the smaller ones.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Stumble said:


> Lets assume they went back for the boat in marginal distress for a moment. What would you suggest they do? Neither boat has towing gear, there is no way to pull up along side and take the crew onboard, the 'rescue' boat certainly couldn't have helped them shorten sail or gain control.
> 
> So the only thing the second boat could possibly do is stand by close enough to hope to rescue someone if they did go in the water. With visibility dropping to less than 50 feet they would have thus been forced to maneuver in extremely close proximity to a distressed vessel that is marginal control. The very proximity also reduces the ability of the smaller boat's skipper to freely use what little sea room there was to his best advantage.
> 
> ...


There are always numerous reasons one can find to avoid helping others in distress. Looking again at the small boat in the video, it's obvious they are in distress. Towing? certainly not, coming alongside, certainly not but standing by to see if they are going to capsize and wind up as swimmers. That's an absolute no-brainer. Could you get them out of the water and into your boat? Probably. Could you throw them extra floatation, jackets, rings? Surely. Could you maybe get your RIB in the water for them? Yep. Could you at least act as the radio contact/locator for the Coast Guard? Ahhh well YES. If it was your family, would you hope someone would be brave enough to offer help? As I said before, there are those who immediately act/help in a crisis and those who stand with hands in their pockets and find all kinds of excuses to do nothing.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smurphny said:


> There are always numerous reasons one can find to avoid helping others in distress. Looking again at the small boat in the video, it's obvious they are in distress. Towing? certainly not, coming alongside, certainly not but standing by to see if they are going to capsize and wind up as swimmers. That's an absolute no-brainer. Could you get them out of the water and into your boat? Probably. Could you throw them extra floatation, jackets, rings? Surely. Could you maybe get your RIB in the water for them? Yep. Could you at least act as the radio contact/locator for the Coast Guard? Ahhh well YES. If it was your family, would you hope someone would be brave enough to offer help? As I said before, there are those who immediately act/help in a crisis and those who stand with hands in their pockets and find all kinds of excuses to do nothing.


I would agree that standing by would be something that could be done, though as pointed out before it could make things worse. I'd favor it being a good thing to do though. If the other captain thought you were causing trouble by standing by he/she could always waive you off.

I'm not sure the captain of the boat in the video recognized that the other boat was in distress. Lots of us here, with hindsight and armchair comfort are still disagreeing that the boat was _in obvious distress at that moment_ so I'm very forgiving of the video boat captain who likely had lots of things on her mind and lots else to focus on.

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

smurphny said:


> There are always numerous reasons one can find to avoid helping others in distress. Looking again at the small boat in the video, it's obvious they are in distress.


I think you might need to define what "being in distress" means exactly. Does a scary heel (it's not even really a true knockdown from what I can see in the vid) in a "race" automatically mean a _rescue_ situation? No freakin' way.

Yes, it is obvious that they are in "distress" in the sense of every other boat in that storm being thrown around. But it is not at all obvious (in the video) that they need immediate rescue in the middle of said storm.

As I said, I would have made the same call she made to keep going based on what I saw in the video.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Local news just ran short interviews with crew of both boats...the boat shooting the video stated they did go look in the area they saw the smaller boat, but were ibnable to locate the boat or any crew. A crewman from the smaller boat, which sank, said three boats passed close aboard while they were in the water, and the third finally heard their whistles and rescued them.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here is the sequence this boat saw as they were passing:




























Does that say immediate rescue to you?

Anyone know if this was the Cal 24 mentioned over at SA? It looks like an older boat for sure - but doesn't look like a Cal to me (bigger, more squared-off cabin top):


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

I agree with Smack on this one. It doesn't look like they're in immediate danger.

But I'll go back to a question I asked earlier - why not monitor their VHF? Mine is always on in scan mode when sailing, even on a bright sunny day.

When passing this boat why not hail them over the radio to ask if they need assistance? 

That seems like a better option than maneuvering in close and trying to shout at them over the storm.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Reducing Sail.....Once the wind actually hits hard, is it even possible to reduce sail?. The wind exerts lots of force on the sails, which causes high friction loads that must be overcome to get the sail down, and with the boat bucking up and down in the short chop, what are the chances of getting to the mast to deal with halyards and sails without be swept or tossed overboard? Whatever one is going to do, they need to do it before the wind hits. And since you don't know how bad it is, assume that it's going to be really bad and act accordingly.

Anchoring......I submit that anchoring would be entirely appropriate in this case. If in the center, nearest land was stated to be 5 miles. But how many boats would be there. They would be dispersed over a wide area. Some would be closer, and have much less room, some would be further away in a more favorable position. But none have a great distance to run. And the water depth is 15 ft. more or less. As to gear being broken while anchoring, perhaps, perhaps not. One of the favored tactics in my area for Hurricanes is anchoring out in a bay in the river that is roughly 3 miles across....the famous hurricane holes are not all that available. The bay that I am talking about has water 9-10 feet deep. To that, one can add 9-10 ft. of storm surge. Get close to the shore, and it gets shallower. Probably the same in this incident.. When there is damage, it usually is from dragging ashore, or as a consequence of two boats getting together. True, we are inland a bit and usually the storms have moderated a bit, but the winds are still higher than that experienced in this incident and for more sustained periods.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Here is the sequence this boat saw as they were passing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am an ocean and a gulf away but it looks to me the smaller boat has a problem. Ok there are folks on the rail and it looks like that are so over powered they have let the main out completely. They are pretty much out of options. They cannot safely reef the sail without capsizing and there outboard would be of little help in that sea state. Although the larger boat I am sure was not aware, due to lack of experience in those conditions, but a good sea person should be able to foresee the problem the folks in the smaller boat may be about to experience (especially if the small boat crew are also inexperienced). My question is what was the big boat in such a rush to get back to the dock? Hard to dock with that kind of wind. Better to just hang out in the bay, wait for the storm to pass, and help others if possible. I have lay a hull in similar conditions with no problem. Just get everyone below deck with hatches secured with the capt at the helm harnessed in with HH vhf and PLB and hang out and help.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Nancy, I appreciate your thoughts and comments. Don’t let others compel you to be silent as your comments help drive the conversation forward. The problem with GoPro movies is the wide angle lens gives the impression that the waves were flatter and that there was plenty of time to contemplate (the “basketball seconds” phenomenon). The reality is much different. Your eyes sting from being pelted by salt spray, visibility is poor, you can’t communicate very well over the noise, the boat is bucking and rolling and your senses are getting overloaded with inputs so it feels that time is speeding up rather than slowing down. Also, we don’t know the experience level of the crew and their capability to react. A crew with only “sunny day” experience has different capabilities than say, an veteran ocean racer. Let’s also not forget that the force of wind goes up exponentially to its velocity. For every doubling of wind speed, the pressure on the sails quadruples. The conditions that these people encountered were probably off the charts from their previous experiences.

I have to agree with Nancy on passing that sloop without pausing. Our offshore racing community got chastised pretty severely by the USCG for not standing by during the Low Speed Chase incident. We were told that even if we couldn’t render direct assistance we should have stood by and acted as a radio relay boat and only resume racing once we handed the responsibility off to an arriving boat on scene. If it was me, I would have made an intercept on the other boat and get some sort of positive signal (hand wave or whatever) as to their situation. I would have also dropped a waypoint marking their position just in case the other boat turned up missing. Does the Dolphin Island Race have any comms protocol for this type of situation? Did the RC call out and ask for position reports? I used to crew with a Hanson Award recipient so my standards and (most importantly) capabilities are probably more than that C36 driver. They also had minimal lifesaving equipment on board (small ring buoy). But with sails furled and under motor, they were better equipped to stand by and at least act as a relay boat.

I’m o.k. with the C36 driver whooping and hollering. Her brain probably was saturated with adrenalin and everybody reacts differently to stress. They were getting some pretty wild surfs. I’d be more concerned if the driver was disconnected or frozen with fear.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Nancy, I appreciate your thoughts and comments. Don't let others compel you to be silent as your comments help drive the conversation forward.


I completely agree. I'm also glad we're having this conversation because for me, it helps me clarify what options for assistance I might be able to render (or ask for) in a similar situation.

MedSailor


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Standing By a Boat in Trouble

A personal experience. Years ago, we were caught out on the river in a bad electrical storm, with really dark clouds, winds picking up and gusting. Not nearly as much as in the regatta incident, but the lightening was something else. There were numerous boats in the river. And as the storm came closer, all were trying to get to safe harbor. The boats were not big. Mine was a 24 footer. The air was crackling and the hair standing on my arms. Lightening strikes were all around us and quite close. We had gotten our sails down and were motoring to the marina which was a couple of miles away. We approached a 21 footer with 3 or 4 persons on board, with sails still up and struggling to sail towards the marina. It was obvious that they were new to sailing and had never been in this situation. We motored to them and as we approached, the helmsman was tossed overboard. His crew got him aboard ok and we stood by giving verbal recommendations, which they took. We stayed with them until their sails were down and they were motoring successfully to the marina area. We didn't really do much, just some suggestions, but we were there, which seemed reassuring. Once on shore, they expressed their gratitude to us helping. And for several years after that, whenever they saw us, there was again an knowing and appreciative greeting. The big boat could have done the same with the smaller boats in this incident. Just knowing that someone is there is reassuring. Just be there, just in case. Especially since the 36 footer didn't seem in trouble.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Only three missing now. One found near one of the oil rigs near the bay entrance.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It's surely a tense situation when in that kind of blow and unless a skipper has been through a few of these and knows what the boat is capable of, it's easy to recognize an inability to think of the other boat or anything other than "let's get back in."


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> I think you might need to define what "being in distress" means exactly. Does a scary heel (it's not even really a true knockdown from what I can see in the vid) in a "race" automatically mean a _rescue_ situation? No freakin' way.
> 
> Yes, it is obvious that they are in "distress" in the sense of every other boat in that storm being thrown around. But it is not at all obvious (in the video) that they need immediate rescue in the middle of said storm.
> 
> As I said, I would have made the same call she made to keep going based on what I saw in the video.


Pretty obvious to me that boat is not adequate for those conditions and is in danger.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Sounds like the whole regatta was a cluster f:

Miscommunication delivered Dauphin Island Regatta racers into deadly storm | AL.com

By Jeff Dute | [email protected] 
Email the author | Follow on Twitter 
on April 28, 2015 at 4:16 PM, updated April 28, 2015 at 6:04 PM

A fluke miscommunication is being blamed for delaying the start of the 2015 Dauphin Island Race, a postponement that was disastrous and possibly fatal for some participants.

An official at Fairhope Yacht Club, which hosted the event, said Tuesday that concerns about stormy weather had nothing to do with the delay in the start of Saturday's race, and that organizers had no idea that the day would bring a sudden blast of gale-force conditions.

Many sailors have reported that the start times for Saturday's race were delayed by about 90 minutes. Some have said they heard the race initially was canceled, then reinstated. According to a race official, the confusion stemmed from an erroneous cancellation announcement posted to Fairhope Yacht Club's website.

The later start meant that most of the race's participants were still on the water when a violent squall enveloped Mobile Bay at about 3 p.m.

Near hurricane-force wind and abnormally high 8-foot waves in the shallow bay contributed to at least 10 boats capsizing. Three of the boats known to have flipped were sailing in the regatta.

Numerous reports indicate that some of the boats were still racing toward the finish line north of the Dauphin Island Bridge when the storm overtook them, while others had crossed the line and were making their way toward their home marinas.

In an email received Tuesday morning, Fairhope Yacht Club Commodore Gary Garner confirmed the following:

- Shortly before 8 o'clock the morning of the race, regatta officials contacted their Web producer via telephone and gave instructions to publish the race scratch sheets on their website Fairhope Yacht Club | Promoting the sport of sailing. The scratch sheets provide the names of every boat registered in one of the three classes set to sail that day and their start time.

- Because of a bad or "garbled" phone connection, however, the Web producer instead heard that the race itself was a "scratch." Scratch is another term for cancel.

- A message announcing the race cancellation popped up on the FYC site at approximately 8 a.m.

- Race officials were alerted to the message within about 15 minutes when sailors from all around Mobile Bay began calling to verify its accuracy.

"If you told me this was going to happen, I wouldn't have believed it." -- Wes Stanley, Mobile Yacht Club member

- The message was removed from the website at about 8:30 a.m.

An issue arose, however, since some sailors from western shore clubs had not yet begun the hour-long trip across the bay to meet their scheduled 9:30 a.m. start.

Wes Stanley, a Mobile Yacht Club member, said he started receiving calls from fellow MYC members at about 7:45 a.m. Saturday wondering whether the race had been cancelled as the Web site indicated.

He said he contacted Principal Race Officer Randy Fitz-Wainwright, who was unaware of any such Web message. He said that Fitz-Wainwright checked the situation, described the message as an error and told him that the race was a go.

After consulting with other racers, Stanley said he asked Fitz-Wainwright whether a postponement might be possible to allow boats just leaving the western shore to make their starting time.

In the spirit of fairness, Fairhope Yacht Club race officials agreed to the 60-minute postponement.

That grew to 90 minutes, however, because racers jumped the gun on the start as they angled for position. The entire fleet had to be called back for a do-over.

The first of several classes of racers began the 18-mile, point-to-point course at 11 a.m., an hour and a half after the originally scheduled starting time.

Stanley said that the subject of weather did not enter into any of his direct talks with FYC officials or his fellow MYC members about a postponement.

"It was a freak thing that happened, the way it built in so close to us," he said. "If you told me this was going to happen, I wouldn't have believed it."


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

What is the course for the Dauphin Island Race? Start at Fairhope and finish at the Dauphin Island Bridge? What's there to do at Dauphin Island and do people normally anchor out or do they turn around and go back home? I'm wondering why it is a point to point? Making the Dauphin Bridge a turning mark and finish at Fairhope would give you a nice party at the club.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Rest of the story video:
Shocking video of sailboat racers caught in severe thunderstorms - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> I have to agree with Nancy on passing that sloop without pausing. Our offshore racing community got chastised pretty severely by the USCG for not standing by during the Low Speed Chase incident. We were told that even if we couldn't render direct assistance we should have stood by and acted as a radio relay boat and only resume racing once we handed the responsibility off to an arriving boat on scene. If it was me, I would have made an intercept on the other boat and get some sort of positive signal (hand wave or whatever) as to their situation. I would have also dropped a waypoint marking their position just in case the other boat turned up missing.


I definitely agree with you on marking the position. But I have a hard time seeing the correlation between this incident and the LSC incident. The LSC was rolled and taken in by a wave. The weather was pretty good - and a lot of boats knew what had happened and continued on.

That's completely different than what we see in this video - where _all_ the boats are in the middle of a major slam.

If this skipper has as much experience as you, then yes I might agree that turning around and standing by would be a good thing to do theoretically (if there was certainty that the boat was, in fact, in trouble). But even with a good deal of experience, it sure wouldn't have been easy with that wind and visibility.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

smurphny said:


> Pretty obvious to me that boat is not adequate for those conditions and is in danger.


Sorry. I don't agree. What boat exactly is "adequate for such conditions"?

The problem was they had too much sail up in huge winds. Even your Alberg is not "adequate" for that particular condition.

Change that factor, and things would have likely been very different.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> I definitely agree with you on marking the position. But I have a hard time seeing the correlation between this incident and the LSC incident. The LSC was rolled and taken in by a wave. The weather was pretty good - and a lot of boats knew what had happened and continued on.
> 
> That's completely different than what we see in this video - where _all_ the boats are in the middle of a major slam.
> 
> If this skipper has as much experience as you, then yes I might agree that turning around and standing by would be a good thing to do theoretically. But even with a good deal of experience, it sure wouldn't have been easy with that wind and visibility.


Smack- see the video I just posted:

http://www.wave3.com/story/28903590...e-thunderstorms-during-dauphin-island-regatta

The said boat did help the next boaters they came on that waved for assistance. And the reporter states the first boat they came upon was in trouble- so why did they steam by the first boat- not even a call to CG with position that maybe this boat may encounter trouble in the very near future?


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

Phitod said:


> andrewoliv said:
> 
> 
> > According to the National Weather Service:
> ...


Lesson learned!!


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Smack- see the video I just posted:
> 
> Shocking video of sailboat racers caught in severe thunderstorms - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports
> 
> The said boat did help the next boaters they came on that waved for assistance. And the reporter states the first boat they came upon was in trouble- so why did they steam by the first boat- not even a call to CG with position that maybe this boat may encounter trouble in the very near future?


In the video, the guy barking orders was constantly reminding his mother at the helm to steer down wind. Also, every time the boat veered from DDW, it heeled. My guess the guy giving the orders was rightly afraid of what could happen if they put the wind on the beam. Hence the decision to hold course and not hang around to check on the other boat.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Smack- see the video I just posted:
> 
> Shocking video of sailboat racers caught in severe thunderstorms - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports
> 
> The said boat did help the next boaters they came on that waved for assistance. And the reporter states the first boat they came upon was in trouble- so why did they steam by the first boat- not even a call to CG with position that maybe this boat may encounter trouble in the very near future?


The reporter also says that boat "nearly capsize[d]". Is that what you see in that video? The reporter also says the fate of that boat and crew after this encounter was unknown, yet it's been said here that it sunk. Are we dealing with all the facts in this discussion?

Look, I'm simply going by the video. Then this skipper came back around after things had "cleared up a bit" (her quoted words in your video) and helped with a rescue.

So, as I've been saying, I think she did exactly the right things. I would have done the same in her position.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm a fair weather sailor.. I avoid conditions even a 1/10 as bad.. a tiny bit because I have a small boat and much because I am really a scaredy cat... so any thoughts I would have on what to do would probably relate to getting out of there as fast as I could and not defecating in my pants, I kind of admire folks discussing this who know exactly what to do....

I wonder though, as you sit at you computer now.. having a day or two to think about this... are you just as calm when something like this hits? This storm seems like a once in a lifetime kind of scenario


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

titustiger27 said:


> I wonder though, as you sit at you computer now.. having a day or two to think about this... are you just as calm when something like this hits? This storm seems like a once in a lifetime kind of scenario


Calm? Outwardly, I try my best to be -- inwardly, I can almost hear my sphincter slam shut. Adrenalin starts pumping, heart rate increases, have to remind myself to focus on the really critical info and not to be distracted by the rest.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

PorFin said:


> Calm? Outwardly, I try my best to be -- inwardly, I can almost hear my sphincter slam shut. Adrenalin starts pumping, heart rate increases, have to remind myself to focus on the really critical info and not to be distracted by the rest.


I wonder what folks do to prepare for this... I take friends out, but I never say: If we get force five winds.. we need to...."

and or, I wonder if you are not putting together a plan...


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Things were happening pretty fast on "St Somewhere". When they passed the sailboat in question, they were by it in seconds. All of the prior experience when they rounded up was that the boat lost control. We can see that in the minutes befoe the boats crossed courses. The helmswoman's default position was to keep the boat under control. By the time they could have assessed the situation, they were well past the other boat. Just too hard for me to second guess her decision. 

I do understand her whooping and hollering. Adrenaline is a strong hormone. The body reacts to danger with heightened muscle reaction and mental focus and excitement. She did a good job of steering the boat, and was in that moment. She kept her crew alive.

This was a real tragedy. In the midst of chaos, people do the best they can. My support goes to everyone who was caught in this storm.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

titustiger27 said:


> I wonder if you are not putting together a plan...


It's a mindset thing for me. Years of baseball got me playing "what if..." almost continuously, which was honed by a career as an infantryman. Always try to be thinking well in advance.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

PorFin said:


> It's a mindset thing for me. Years of baseball got me playing "what if..." almost continuously, which was honed by a career as an infantryman. Always try to be thinking well in advance.


I understand that... we all have reasons to do this.. in our job or other adventures...

But what ifs... are easier if there is a man on first and the hitter squares to bunt...

In this case, the batter starts running at you, swinging a louisville slugger


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)




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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

All of this begs the question (which my wife asked me): Given extreme weather that these sailors found themselves in and the risk of capsizing/sinking that this weather presented, is it better to have the minimum necessary crew in the cockpit - with PFD's - and have everyone else go below, or have everyone 'topside' - with PFD's - in case the capsizing/sinking happens?

While being out in the elements would be harsh, the thought of folks being trapped inside and going down/drowning, to me, is worse.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

titustiger27 said:


> I wonder what folks do to prepare for this... I take friends out, but I never say: If we get force five winds.. we need to...."
> 
> and or, I wonder if you are not putting together a plan...


I once was taking the boat back to the homeport at the end of a cruise. Thunderstorms were predicted later in the morning but, I wanted to take advantage of the favoring current and not wait. I looked at the weather radar online and thought there was a chance the squall line and storms would be past by the time we approached the area to the west. They were not. I had kept an eye of the front on my cell phones weather radar app as we sailed along. So I knew my hunch did not work out as planned. As we started to approach the squall line and the lightning and thunder increased I fired up the motor, dropped sail. Put the boat on a course that was the most comfortable as the winds picked up then set the Autohelm and went below. With the wind and hail hitting the deck I was listening to the thunder claps. Nice thing about having electric propulsion is the quietness allowed me to easily hear when the thunder had started to come from the starboard side of the boat which meant the line had gone past our location. When the rain, hail and wind died down a bit and I felt comfortable enough we raised sail and continued on.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

weinie said:


> In the video, the guy barking orders was constantly reminding his mother at the helm to steer down wind. Also, every time the boat veered from DDW, it heeled. My guess the guy giving the orders was rightly afraid of what could happen if they put the wind on the beam. Hence the decision to hold course and not hang around to check on the other boat.


If they were afraid of knock down, all but skipper should have been on deck, and harnessed in. Boat closed up with all braced below. Been there and done that with two crew on oday 37 in north atlantic. Conditions really don,'t look that bad for any boat over 30 feet. The crew is not really holding on very well, and look to be having a relaxing drink.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

VF84Sluggo said:


> All of this begs the question (which my wife asked me): Given extreme weather that these sailors found themselves in and the risk of capsizing/sinking that this weather presented, is it better to have the minimum necessary crew in the cockpit - with PFD's - and have everyone else go below, or have everyone 'topside' - with PFD's - in case the capsizing/sinking happens?
> 
> While being out in the elements would be harsh, the thought of folks being trapped inside and going down/drowning, to me, is worse.


If the boat can be sealed well, and has a proper righting moment like what a blue water boat would have, I would get all unneeded crew below and close the boat up, with the skipper at the helm. The skipper harnessed and tethered should be able to handle knock down. If your really worried, all below and throw out the anchor. Boats generally survive most storms.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> The reporter also says that boat "nearly capsize[d]". Is that what you see in that video? The reporter also says the fate of that boat and crew after this encounter was unknown, yet it's been said here that it sunk. Are we dealing with all the facts in this discussion?
> 
> Look, I'm simply going by the video. Then this skipper came back around after things had "cleared up a bit" (her quoted words in your video) and helped with a rescue.
> 
> So, as I've been saying, I think she did exactly the right things. I would have done the same in her position.


I see that boat in the near future getting knocked down, and if hatches opened, sunk. The small boat in the vid getting passed is out of control and in dire straights. This report could have been made prior to the fact of the boat sinking being known. Interesting the reporter pointed out she thought the boat was having problems, I thought that was an excellent observation, and coming from a news reporter, exceptional, maybe she is also a sailor...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

titustiger27 said:


> I'm a fair weather sailor..
> 
> (snip)
> 
> This storm seems like a once in a lifetime kind of scenario


I disagree. This pattern seems somewhat common for seasonal transitions and during the really hot days of summer.

The primary variable is the intensity and duration. Some will be worse than others.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I disagree. This pattern seems somewhat common for seasonal transitions and during the really hot days of summer.
> 
> The primary variable is the intensity and duration. Some will be worse than others.


I guess I was going by much of the news reports of this tragedy --- where people might talk about how the area weather can change fast, but it seemed like all those involved said it was the worse they ever seen.

I guess if you sail enough everything happens and probably happens again


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Well...intensity of 65kts is probably pretty rare, but the pattern itself may not be, with intensity in the 30's and 40's being more common.

On the Chesapeake in the summer, we say that you should typically be where you want to be, by around 4pm when the afternoon squalls roll through. If not, you'd better be checking the weather radar and the sky, frequently.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Anyone that has sailed for any length of time has encountered a situation similar to this one. Maybe not as extreme, but enough to scare you. I can remember at least three. First was on Barnegat Bay in an Oday 22 in the 1970s when I was a new sailor. Saw the squall coming, got the sails down and outboard running just as it hit and we went over 45 degrees under bare pole. Next was during a weekend cruise while anchored with other boats from my club. Squall came through and many boats dragged and we later saw a few on the beach. Third that comes to mind is returning to my club after a 2 week cruise. Severe storms predicted for the afternoon so we left early to get in before they hit. Unfortunately as we rounded the point entering the harbor, we could see the jet black sky to the west. Sails came down and engine on as we sped toward our mooring. Just got on the mooring when it hit with 40-50 knot winds and hail filled the cockpit. Lots of wind damage ashore and several boats in the fleet lost headsails. I often think what would have happened if we hadn't gotten to the mooring.

Regardless of what side of the discussion you are on, this tragedy has caused a lot of people to think about what they would do in a similar situation. And that is a good thing.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Plenty to wade thru here, apologies if I've missed this mentioned previously. But one tactic that I don't believe has been yet mentioned, that I would have likely resorted to in my 30-footer (or anything comparable or larger), and assuming sea room was not an immediate concern...

This seems to me a situation where simply lying ahull with all sail struck would have been the most sensible approach... Some boats will do this more effectively than others, of course, and want to tend to run off or forereach with some speed, but I'm fortunate that mine tends to lie ahull beautifully, with an almost perfect sideways drift...

Lying ahull gets deservedly gets bad rap as a storm tactic offshore in larger seas, but in a place like Mobile Bay the seas wouldn't reach a size sufficient to pose a threat to capsizing in anything but the smallest boats... So, I think lying ahull - with the engine running, and ready to engage if some sort of evasive maneuver or attempt to render assistance if necessary - would have been the safest all around approach...

First, your drift to leeward and risk of running out of sea room would be minimized, and your closing speed to any other boats downwind or attempting to motor upwind would be lower. You'd be in position to dodge any other boats running off in an uncontrolled fashion, and also ready to attempt to bring the boat head to wind and hold station under power in any lull, or if sea room started to become a concern...

In general, I think attempting to anchor would have been very ill-advised, and only considered as a last resort. For one, you could become a sitting duck with restricted ability to avoid other boats who might be running off out of control. It would also pretty much eliminate your ability to render assistance to others. But primarily, I think some may be underestimating the risk of attempting to anchor in such conditions, a crew could be seriously hurt trying to deal with ground tackle in that amount of wind and sea. The snatching and shock loads would be enormous, easy to have the person on the foredeck become hurt really badly, and suddenly you're REALLY got a problem... If you managed to get the anchor down and everything set before the onset of the storm, that might be one thing, but once the weather was upon you, I think it would not be worth the risk to attempt to do so, except as a matter of last resort due to running out of sea room...

Of course, it's always near impossible to know for sure what one would have done in that situation, it would have represented the classic remark about battle, that all plans begin to change as soon as the first shots are fired. But sitting here at my desk, and trying to envision being out there in my boat that day, I'm pretty sure that would have been my initial approach... Get the sails lowered and secured, make sure no lines are in the water and secured, get the engine running, and just sit tight and let the boat ride like a duck...

Yet another example of the value of a boat with an inherent tendency to lie ahull or heave-to comfortably, without a great deal of management from the crew... The value of that cannot possibly be overstated, IMHO... Not hard to imagine how many folks out there that day were really struggling to control boats with with characteristics like minimal displacement, flat bottoms, excessive freeboard, and so on...


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I really don't see that there was anything they could have done to help the boat. They were doing all they could to control there own boat that seemed to be surfing along down wind on bare polls. When ever they started to veer off course they started to roll, so they may not have been able to control any course change towards the other boat. The other boat was running really fast and they would not have been able to catch up. The other boat would have been very unlikely to have been able to hear anything on the radio, let alone use it. The only thing I think they could have done was have someone go below and call the coast guard and give a position report of the vessel. But it may have been impossible to even hear the radio below as well, so that may not have been an option. The crew did not seem to know what to do. The only really egregious thing I saw was that the guy did not put down his camera and help her put on a PDF. People kind of looked at here struggling to get the vest on, but no one took the helm or helped her. Had the boat gone over, they would surely have felt guilty had she lost her life. 

I do have to say that Catalina 36 seemed to handle the squall quite well. 

One other thing that bothers me is that at least some of the boats were on the way home from the race, didn't they check the weather before heading home? They could have waited it out someplace for the known storm to pass. But I guess they had dinner to get to. (schedule again)


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

JonEisberg said:


> Plenty to wade thru here, apologies if I've missed this mentioned previously. But one tactic that I don't believe has been yet mentioned, that I would have likely resorted to in my 30-footer (or anything comparable or larger), and assuming sea room was not an immediate concern...
> 
> This seems to me a situation where simply lying ahull with all sail struck would have been the most sensible approach... Some boats will do this more effectively than others, of course, and want to tend to run off or forereach with some speed, but I'm fortunate that mine tends to lie ahull beautifully, with an almost perfect sideways drift...
> 
> ...


Sounds good to me. So do a Tartan 34 from 1974 and an Ericson 35 MK II lie ahull well? And as someone said earlier, do they right themselves well? After reading all of this and thinking about boats we looked at last year that are still available, that's something I would like to find out.
Thanks,
Nancy


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

miatapaul said:


> The other boat would have been very unlikely to have been able to hear anything on the radio, let alone use it. The only thing I think they could have done was have someone go below and call the coast guard and give a position report of the vessel. But it may have been impossible to even hear the radio below as well, so that may not have been an option.


Good point



miatapaul said:


> The only really egregious thing I saw was that the guy did not put down his camera and help her put on a PDF.


In one of the interviews with her she said her son was wearing a GoPro on his head.



miatapaul said:


> One other thing that bothers me is that at least some of the boats were on the way home from the race, didn't they check the weather before heading home?


Another good point. But it leads to another question. Shouldn't there have been a race committee boat at the finish line? Why weren't they keeping an eye on the weather and alerting boats to an approaching storm?


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## oceangirl (Sep 17, 2008)

I've seen 60-70s in a 37 ft, sustained, for many hours. We had the whole Atlantic to float about. We just passed through Mobile Bay and it struck me as a big sea bay, surprisingly deep for the Gulf coast. But no sea room.

definitely douse sails as posted above, but if the big wind has already arrived, there is no going forward ( anchor, douse, help others) period. 

We tend to think about the rescues done by sailors in the southern ocean to fellow sailors( Cam and Riou). Theses sailors are athletes in the highest form, freakishly talented with boat handling. Apples and oranges.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

As we discuss what to do in a situation like the race incident, we have the advantage of knowing what exactly we are facing. In real life, these things tend to slip up on a person...yes, there is warning from the sky that there is going to be a storm, but will it pass safely away from us, or will it hit us? If it hits, how bad will it be....winds to 25 or winds to 60? How long will it last, particularly the bad part? Before it hits, we have lots of choices, but once in the storm, our choices become quite limited, usually just hang on and hope for the best. So early action and correct assessment (guess) are critical.

As to maneuvering under power: Does anyone on the list have experience motoring in winds in the 60-70 range? Will the typical sailboat have enough power to overcome the wind to make turns or to hold a course into the wind at the 60-70 mph range? Running downwind and using engine to help maintain the course might be the only thing one can do using the engine. It is also probably the most comfortable for the crew, assuming you have room to do it. And if no sea room, lying ahull and drifting might not be feasible either, so then, we come to anchoring. But anchoring, while holding the boat, is going to be hard on the crew and boat, since boats tend to sail about on the anchor with abrupt reversals at the end of the travel. But that would be preferable in most cases to going aground, where you are going to get pounded pretty hard in most cases and do real damage.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

NCC320 said:


> As we discuss what to do in a situation like the race incident, we have the advantage of knowing what exactly we are facing. In real life, these things tend to slip up on a person...yes, there is warning from the sky that there is going to be a storm, but will it pass safely away from us, or will it hit us? If it hits, how bad will it be....winds to 25 or winds to 60? How long will it last, particularly the bad part? Before it hits, we have lots of choices, but once in the storm, our choices become quite limited, usually just hang on and hope for the best. So early action and correct assessment (guess) are critical.
> 
> As to maneuvering under power: Does anyone on the list have experience motoring in winds in the 60-70 range? Will the typical sailboat have enough power to overcome the wind to make turns or to hold a course into the wind at the 60-70 mph range? Running downwind and using engine to help maintain the course might be the only thing one can do using the engine. It is also probably the most comfortable for the crew, assuming you have room to do it. And if no sea room, lying ahull and drifting might not be feasible either, so then, we come to anchoring. But anchoring, while holding the boat, is going to be hard on the crew and boat, since boats tend to sail about on the anchor with abrupt reversals at the end of the travel. But that would be preferable in most cases to going aground, where you are going to get pounded pretty hard in most cases and do real damage.


For one thing, the video previously posted of the large sailboat passing the smaller- there is now way the wind is even close to 60 knots. If it were 60 knots them folks would not relaxing in the cockpit taking gopro movies. I looked at the buoy data for mobile bay during the episode and the highest wind I could find was 55 knot gust, and some buoys at 35 knots- maybe there was a instantaneous gust of 60 knots somewhere.

I have maneuvered a 80 foot motor sail in 80 knot winds (motors only) with no problems, and the seas were probably rolling 40 footers, and the boat would heel up to 45 degree with just the wind on the two masts. Sail boats in the 30-40 foot range in 40 knots with no problems. If I were to be trying to pick up someone in the water, different story. In that case depends on the situation but would use drift due to wind and sea to my advantage in the pickup. Use of a Life Sling would help a lot in such a situation.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JimMcGee said:


> Good point
> 
> In one of the interviews with her she said her son was wearing a GoPro on his head.
> 
> Another good point. But it leads to another question. Shouldn't there have been a race committee boat at the finish line? Why weren't they keeping an eye on the weather and alerting boats to an approaching storm?


Agree, with everyone carrying a smart phone now, you can bring up weather radar and if you see a line of heavy rain in front of an approaching cold front, you can bet there will most likely be some strong wind gust with that- time to take all the sails down while you can. Can put them up again as front passes.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Nancyleeny said:


> Sounds good to me. So do a Tartan 34 from 1974 and an Ericson 35 MK II lie ahull well? And as someone said earlier, do they right themselves well? After reading all of this and thinking about boats we looked at last year that are still available, that's something I would like to find out.
> Thanks,
> Nancy


Check this site out:
http://bluewaterboats.org/
I like this pic of a good sea going boat, only 34 feet.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

casey1999 said:


> I like this pic of a good sea going boat, only 34 feet.


That looks a lot longer than 34 feet!! Nice boat!!!!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Agree, with everyone carrying a smart phone now, you can bring up weather radar and if you see a line of heavy rain in front of an approaching cold front, you can bet there will most likely be some strong wind gust with that- time to take all the sails down while you can. Can put them up again as front passes.


That's the single thing that has surprised me the most right from the get-go about this incident... Forget about the likelihood of the ominous black wall of clouds approaching from the west, there had to have been literally _HUNDREDS_ of smart phones and iPads out on that bay that afternoon.... Aside from those aboard some of the beach cats and other assorted small boats, how could anyone have not had a VERY good picture of what was coming, and plenty of advance warning? And I would certainly hope that those who did, made the effort to alert those they could aboard smaller boats that this was not your ordinary t-storm on the way...

I'm reminded of one of the videos from one of the J-Boats in the tragic Mac race a few years ago... The crew was seemingly so preoccupied with getting all this fantastic video of the storm approaching, they never even bothered to reef the main until it was upon them in full force...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Nancyleeny said:


> That looks a lot longer than 34 feet!! Nice boat!!!!


It is an S&S34- same as mine and this one too:


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> That's the single thing that has surprised me the most right from the get-go about this incident... Forget about the likelihood of the ominous black wall of clouds approaching from the west, there had to have been literally _HUNDREDS_ of smart phones and iPads out on that bay that afternoon.... Aside from those aboard some of the beach cats and other assorted small boats, how could anyone have not had a VERY good picture of what was coming, and plenty of advance warning? And I would certainly hope that those who did, made the effort to alert those they could aboard smaller boats that this was not your ordinary t-storm on the way...
> 
> I'm reminded of one of the videos from one of the J-Boats in the tragic Mac race a few years ago... The crew was seemingly so preoccupied with getting all this fantastic video of the storm approaching, they never even bothered to reef the main until it was upon them in full force...


Agree,
Years ago I used to do a lot of windsurfing off Bembe Beach Annapolis, MD. I would get off work in the afternoon. Many days in the summer there would be an approaching cold front. As many Maryland sailors may know, when a strong cold front is approaching the Chesapeake on a warm clear spring or summer day, there will be great steady strong SE winds. These winds are in the 18 to up to 30 knot range and they can be more steady than trades, some of the best sailing winds I have known. I would look at the Doppler radar on desk top (no smart phones back then) to see where the front was and how fast it was approaching, then determine how much time I had to sail, while also keeping an eye on the approaching front while sailing. When the front approached, the winds would die then shift and could go NW at 40-50 knots. You want to be in port or on the beach before that happened. From the beach saw many boats get hit with the high winds- some race boats even getting de-masted.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Nancyleeny said:


> That looks a lot longer than 34 feet!! Nice boat!!!!


Here is another pic of the boat. Sailed by David Dicks at 17.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> For one thing, the video previously posted of the large sailboat passing the smaller- there is now way the wind is even close to 60 knots. If it were 60 knots them folks would not relaxing in the cockpit taking gopro movies. I looked at the buoy data for mobile bay during the episode and the highest wind I could find was 55 knot gust, and some buoys at 35 knots- maybe there was a instantaneous gust of 60 knots somewhere.
> 
> I have maneuvered a 80 foot motor sail in 80 knot winds (motors only) with no problems, and the seas were probably rolling 40 footers, and the boat would heel up to 45 degree with just the wind on the two masts. Sail boats in the 30-40 foot range in 40 knots with no problems. If I were to be trying to pick up someone in the water, different story. In that case depends on the situation but would use drift due to wind and sea to my advantage in the pickup. Use of a Life Sling would help a lot in such a situation.


I agree that the video on the 36 footer was taken at nowhere near 60-70 mph, and at lower speeds, the boat should have had sufficient maneuverability to go just about anywhere he wanted.

Additional stories of survivors are coming out gradually. After the initial short lived gusts had cleared, boats in the 22 - 30 ft. range that were already out there were picking up people in the water, so maneuverability was possible with typical boat set ups. Really small boats like 16 ft. Hobie Cats were knocked over and people survived these when they had life jackets on.

And boats that got their sails down seem to have done well. While the stories generally say that the high winds came out of nowhere without warning, most accounts talk about the dark clouds and lightening, which are typically clear warning that you are going to get some really high gusts when the front hits you.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

NCC320 said:


> I agree that the video on the 36 footer was taken at nowhere near 60-70 mph, and at lower speeds, the boat should have had sufficient maneuverability to go just about anywhere he wanted.
> 
> Additional stories of survivors are coming out gradually. After the initial short lived gusts had cleared, boats in the 22 - 30 ft. range that were already out there were picking up people in the water, so maneuverability was possible with typical boat set ups. Really small boats like 16 ft. Hobie Cats were knocked over and people survived these when they had life jackets on.
> 
> And boats that got their sails down seem to have done well. While the stories generally say that the high winds came out of nowhere without warning, most accounts talk about the dark clouds and lightening, which are typically clear warning that you are going to get some really high gusts when the front hits you.


Well they reported 55 knot winds apparent, so give that they looked to be surfing along at least 10 knots it is getting into the upper 60 knot range. I think the GoPro with it's ultra wide angle lens makes things look calmer than they really are. The waves look flatter due to the angle of the lens as well. Look at a face that is taking up most of the screen on one of these and it will be distorted out of proportion. Also with the auto exposure it makes it look lighter than it likely actually was. I imagine the other boat was more visible to the camera than it was to the people in the cockpit as well.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

casey1999 said:


> Here is another pic of the boat. Sailed by David Dicks at 17.


I just did a search for ones for sale, and they don't seem too common. I love it!!!! 
nancy


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It would certainly depend on the wind resistance of different boats but it's been my experience that motoring against a strong wind is very possible, I mean, to a point. With a 20 knot headwind, I will lose about a knot, if that's any indicator. Having full propwash over the rudder also would seem to make motoring into the wind more stable than trying to steer downwind with very little power at a lower rpm. I just don't like the idea of running downwind with an unknown increasing wind. Broaching at high speed is not something I would want to even contemplate.

Anchoring, even before a front hits out in open water could lead to problems although it might work if the anchor is big enough and there is time to get it well set, maybe two but as Jon said, you become an obstruction to anyone drifting out of control. I'd want to have the capability to cut it loose which is difficult with chain. A sea anchor is not appropriate for shallow water. Lying ahull if you have sea room makes sense. Perhaps a small fishing drogue might work ok while lying ahull so as to keep the bow a bit into the wind to stop rocking badly.

The fetch/wave height graph:FACTORS AFFECTING WAVE HEIGHT


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

andrewoliv said:


> Never ran into a situation where I thought it made sense to run with the wind in a big blow.
> 
> .


Bernard Moitessier sailed from France to Tahiti via the Southern ocean. He describes the passage in his book The Logical Route. He survives several southern ocean gales storms and severe storms. He abandons ideas of heaving to and lying a hull. He runs before the storms trailing warps then cuts them away, he discovers that on his boat running more or less dead down wind under bare poles seemed the safest thing to do. Joshua is a 40 ft ketch. Bernard is dead now but Joshua sails on. In fact for a while they sailed the snot out of it back and forward across the Bay of Biscay with youngsters for crew. I like it that they left the dents in from Cabo san Lucas.

If you want to know about surviving extreme conditions it is one to read.

They should have anchored and waited it out. Anybody suggesting this has never tried to anchor in those sort of conditions. To begin with on a racing sailboat there is a pretty good chance that the anchor will be the smallest the rules allow and the rode will be rope. Assuming that to be the case the chances of getting the anchor to set and hold might be 1 in 50. Sure if they could get it deployed and set before the storm arrives then maybe but most people who try this finish up with it dragging.

As to attempts to go to the aid of other boats. As a rescuer your first duty is

DON'T BECOME A CASUALTY YOURSELF.

Attempting to turn around in those conditions would have risked becoming a casualty. If fact a boat that did attempt to aid another finished up in a collision and both sank.

Turning sideways on in steep breaking waves is a very bad idea. Many a boat has been rolled by a steep breaking wave.

The boat under bare poles obeyed the first rule and ensured that the boat and crew were safe. Once conditions moderated they went back to help.

IMHO they got it exactly right.

Woo Hoo's are fine with me, helming in those conditions is seriously exciting.

Like others have said, this storm did not arrive unannounced from clear skies, it was no white squall. The likelihood of thunderstorms was forecast that morning. The thunderstorm cell is clearly visible minutes beforehand. The black squall line was clearly visible minutes before it hit. Every skipper who did nothing beforehand is culpable as far as I am concerned. If they did not see it they should have, the phrase "Keep a weather eye" comes from hard won experience. If they saw it and did nothing hoping to "ride it out" then they were seriously negligent.

That so many people were caught totally unaware with full sail up just boggles my mind.

Major kudos to the Hobie cat driver who deliberately turtled his craft at the first opportunity and hung on between the upturned hulls with his crew till the storm past and they got rescued. Perhaps a bit of mid night 'what if' thinking helped him make the decision.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> Well they reported 55 knot winds apparent, so give that they looked to be surfing along at least 10 knots it is getting into the upper 60 knot range. I think the GoPro with it's ultra wide angle lens makes things look calmer than they really are. The waves look flatter due to the angle of the lens as well. Look at a face that is taking up most of the screen on one of these and it will be distorted out of proportion. Also with the auto exposure it makes it look lighter than it likely actually was. I imagine the other boat was more visible to the camera than it was to the people in the cockpit as well.


There is no way the winds were 55 knot apparent. The person holding the life jacket (attempting to put in on helms person) would not be able to hold the jacket as shown. If you do not agree, get in the back of a pickup and drive down the highway at 60 mph, now stand up and hold up a life jacket and report back what happens.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

casey1999 said:


> There is no way the winds were 55 knot apparent. The person holding the life jacket (attempting to put in on helms person) would not be able to hold the jacket as shown. If you do not agree, get in the back of a pickup and drive down the highway at 60 mph, now stand up and hold up a life jacket and report back what happens.


I think the life jacket does get blown away.

The boat is moving downwind at some speed so apparent wind over the deck is less.

There are times it looks pretty windy to me.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Each report that I read has the waves increasing, with numbers 6 to 10 ft. with 8 ft. being most often mentioned. But the duration of the winds has been brief, the waters are shallow, the fetch is not that long, and the waves always appear larger than life when you are in them. Given the shallow water, and judging from what I've seen and heard reported in storms in local large rivers, wouldn't the real height be more like 4-6 ft?

Of course, in shallow water, those waves are going to be close together and beat you up quite a bit, whatever the height is. 

Running downwind and where speed is getting too high, trailing lines or drogues is a common attempt to slow speed. In the case of the 36 footer running downwind and having the engine available, wouldn't running engine in reverse gear be another suitable way to check speed? If not, why not?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

TQA said:


> I think the life jacket does get blown away.
> 
> The boat is moving downwind at some speed so apparent wind over the deck is less.
> 
> There are times it looks pretty windy to me.


Yes the jacket does get blown away. Max boat speed say 10 knots, I factored that in and said apparent speed 55 knots. So go ride in back of pick-up and hold up life jacket at 60 mph- going to look a whole lot different than what you see on that boat. I see one crew has a ball cap on, so put on a ball cap and make a gopro vid and compare to what you see in video.


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## MITBeta (May 13, 2011)

These guys were left for dead by the boat that ran them over:

'Light O Mobile' rescues 3 men stranded in the bay after Dauphin Island Regatta disaster | AL.com


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MITBeta said:


> These guys were left for dead by the boat that ran them over:
> 
> 'Light O Mobile' rescues 3 men stranded in the bay after Dauphin Island Regatta disaster | AL.com


Must have been cocktail hour...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Skip Novak has some great storm sailing instructional videos, go to this link and find the series:


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## PontchatrainSailor (Apr 1, 2009)

From another board:

I was on a Melges 24 (USA 9) for the Dauphin Island race this year. After the finish we decided to turn back for Fairhope under the kite. When we saw the white wall coming at us we already had the kite down and barely had time to get the main down and only one life jacket made it above deck. The boat was immediately tossed onto its side with a "bare pole", we spent the next 10 minutes with the mast in the mud and the crew of 5 in the water hanging onto the aft lifeline and the 25qt yeti. I truly believe that the mast being in the mud (10-14ft of water) is what saved the boat from sinking. due to the large waves and light hull the waves were rolling right under the boat. once the winds calmed down some the boat was able to right itself and we all climbed back on board. we immediately got more life jackets from down below and I grabbed my vhf radio with built in GPS and distress button. A few minutes later another gust came thru and flipped the boat the opposite way, and back into the water we go. another 10 minutes or so. finally the winds calmed and the boat came back up. We were able to drain enough water from the boat (honestly didn't know a Melges 24 would hold as much water as it did and not sink) and start sailing back towards dauphin island looking for people in the water. This was by far the worst storm I have been in.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MITBeta said:


> These guys were left for dead by the boat that ran them over:
> 
> 'Light O Mobile' rescues 3 men stranded in the bay after Dauphin Island Regatta disaster | AL.com


I think you/they are making some big assumptions there. How do you know the intentions of the other boat's skipper/crew?

This is good...



> The crew agreed that their "take-away" from the experience is to watch the weather more while sailing.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> I think you/they are making some big assumptions there. How do you know the intentions of the other boat's skipper/crew?


When you collide with another boat, you are by law to offer assistance and to notify the CG, you do not leave the scene. They must have known there was a collision, they dragged the boat. Unless they were all down below watching the days race gopro vids and having the boat on auto pilot.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> When you collide with another boat, you are by law to offer assistance and to notify the CG, you do not leave the scene. They must have known there was a collision, they dragged the boat. Unless they were all down below watching the days race gopro vids and having the boat on auto pilot.


I understand. But you're assuming they _could_ stop. Again, you guys don't know. So you really shouldn't make accusations.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> I understand. But you're assuming they _could_ stop. Again, you guys don't know. So you really shouldn't make accusations.


Then they should call CG immediately on VHF and report collision. In any case, they really need to stop, they did the damage, they need to risk there own lives if necessary to render aid. They are responsible, but then again I guess we now live in some politically correct world on land that has carried over to the water.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Then they should call CG immediately on VHF and report collision. In any case, they really need to stop, they did the damage, they need to risk there own lives if necessary to render aid. They are responsible, but then again I guess we now live in some politically correct world on land that has carried over to the water.


How do you know they _didn't_ call the CG?

This has nothing to do with political correctness - it's just that you shouldn't accuse people of pretty egregious stuff before you know the facts. There are laws for that kind of thing.

In any case, that boat will not be hard to find. So it shouldn't be a mystery too long.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

The story behind the viral YouTube video of the stormy Dauphin Island Regatta | AL.com

The story behind the viral YouTube video of the stormy Dauphin Island Regatta

Dauphin Island Regatta disaster sailboat footageA portion of video posted on YouTube by Joshua Edwards that was taken on board a sailboat during the Dauphin Island Regatta on April 25, 2015. The race was interrupted by harsh storms which killed at least two and has left five unaccounted for.

The 32-year-old Mobile man said he skippered his parents' boat, St. Somewhere, during the race, and they, along with two other "friends from the yacht club" were actually on their way home when winds around 60 knots hammered the course.

The five-person crew was motoring north in the bay, and although the boat's sails were down, the 36-foot Catalina was heeled to the starboard at times, solely due to the wind and cresting waves.

More than 16 minutes of the St. Somewhere's return trip was recorded on a GoPro camera Edwards strapped to his head during the storm, which led to a video he posted on YouTube which has gotten more than 2,400 views.

In one of the most haunting images shared in the aftermath of Saturday's natural disaster, Edwards looks to the starboard side as his boat passes a much smaller vessel that's nearly on its side in the wind. He looks left in the direction of his father, Joel Hoffman, who is at the wheel, and when the camera returns to the undulating waves, the smaller craft is gone; lost in grey sea spray.

"We were fortunate enough to be on a vessel as seaworthy as it was," Edwards said. "It was a hurricane."

At one point, they came upon a 22-foot boat containing a family of three stranded with a swamped motor. The St. Somewhere towed the vessel back to Mobile, and the trio - which included an 11-year-old girl - told the group the winds were blowing the stranded vessel so much that their anchor was skimming across the top of the waves, Edwards said.

The Super Bowl of sailing

Race preparation on St. Somewhere is serious business, according to Edwards. Leading up to the regatta, he and his favorite "old salts" poured over wind graphs, weather forecasts and formed their strategy.

"As sailors on Mobile Bay, we wait all year for that race," he said. "Every other race we race during the season is just keeping us sharp for that race to Dauphin Island."

And the day looked good, he said, with their southerly plot culminating in "high fives and cheers" as they passed over the finish line and under the Dauphin Island Bridge.

"We were very excited because we were very optimistic we had done the best we'd ever done in the race," Edwards said. It was our wind, it was heavy, it was throwing, it was our day.

"And it all kind of went south very quick."

The crew was no stranger to sailing in storms, he said, and the Saturday afternoon system looked to hold no more than what south Alabama sailors no doubt experience after enough time on the rudder.

And so they dropped the sails and motored north. "Twenty-five minutes later it was on us," Edwards said. "No one out there knew what they were going to be in for.

"Or else we wouldn't have gone."

A "huge lesson" and solution moving forward?

Back at Mobile Yacht Club on Saturday night, Edwards said he and others started discussing the future of the bay area's signature regatta.

"It was a hard day yesterday," he said. "This race has been going on a long time and it is a big event.

"And there is a huge lesson to be learned going forward."

Edwards said he has heard rumors that a solution might be having more people involved, resulting in increased safety measures in case of catastrophe. That could be made possible if, instead of one of Mobile Bay's four yacht clubs hosting the event each year, they all pool resources to manage the event.

"I think it's a good idea," he said. "We all need to come together and look out for each other."


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> How do you know they _didn't_ call the CG?
> 
> This has nothing to do with political correctness - it's just that you shouldn't accuse people of pretty egregious stuff before you know the facts. There are laws for that kind of thing.
> 
> In any case, that boat will not be hard to find. So it shouldn't be a mystery too long.


The boat needed to stop. Post some facts as to why it did not stop. And by the way, go ahead and sue me...


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## Phitod (Apr 30, 2014)

For another perspective on this storm, check out this video.






This was filmed in my home town of Dothan, AL. There was extensive damage all throughout the city. Over half the city was without power for multiple days.

Dothan is located in the southeastern-most corner of the state, opposite of Mobile.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Is this also the same line of storms that blew the train off the tracks outside of NO?


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Leaving the scene of an accident is covered under the motor vehicle code of your state. In California, this ranges from a misdemeanor to a felony depending upon the seriousness of the accident. You are required by law to stay on scene and not phone it in and then flee. I’d imagine that someone has already had a knock on their door. “But officer, my boat was stolen from its slip on Saturday morning…”


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

In this thread, I mentioned anchoring to ride out the storm. Also, there have been many questions regarding the storm. Here is a link from a couple who were caught in the storm and chose to anchor. As some said, the anchor did drag and the couple used the engine to hold the boat in position to avoid going aground. When they became aware of the storm, they got their sails down in time, but in the excitement, forgot to put on life jackets. This is a good read, with lessons for all of us.

Our Perfect Storm - Life On The Hook


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

According to one witness, not all PFD wearers survived. Not trying to make any point, just relaying what I've read elseware. PFD's are no guarantee. Of course, we don't know the quality of the PFD's they various folks were wearing.



NCC320 said:


> Additional stories of survivors are coming out gradually. After the initial short lived gusts had cleared, boats in the 22 - 30 ft. range that were already out there were picking up people in the water, so maneuverability was possible with typical boat set ups. Really small boats like 16 ft. Hobie Cats were knocked over and people survived these when they had life jackets on.





> We had just finished on a Tripp 26 and threw the kite up for the ride back to FYC when it hit us. According to the Ft Morgan weather station there was an initial gust of 62 followed by 20 min of 50 then over an hour where it was over 30. We were fortunate to have a boat full experienced sailors that didn't panic and did what it took to secure the boat and ride the storm out.
> When it had settled down we threw a blade up and proceeded to head to FYC when we spotted three sailors floating, we rescued them and had learned they were sailing a Cal 24 that turtled and sank. They were in the water for more then an hour and were in shock as they lost 2 crew to drowning. We got them safely back to FYC.
> 
> The sailors we rescued yesterday were all wearing PFDs, they stated that the two victims were also wearing PFDs. The chop on the bay was so incredibly steep that it may have contributed to them drowning as the water was constantly breaking over their heads. Ironically one overboard sailor survived a three hour ordeal without a PFD. I'm not advocating against wearing life jackets I'm just telling you what I know that happened yesterday.
> ...


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Here is a link to a video of boats at the marina during the storm. Since I keep my boat at it's slip during hurricanes (why is another story, but it's the safest place for me), I have seen quite a few storms from the viewpoint of the pier when checking lines before peak of named storms hit. The boats in the video look quite similar to what I have seen/experienced in the 60-70 mph range. There are three videos in this series.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

casey1999 said:


> The boat needed to stop. Post some facts as to why it did not stop. And by the way, go ahead and sue me...


Not defending them but if they were out of control they may not have been able to stop. Perhaps their rudder was taken out in the collision. I could think of several reasons that they did not stop. I am sure the truth will come out.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> Not defending them but if they were out of control they may not have been able to stop. Perhaps their rudder was taken out in the collision. I could think of several reasons that they did not stop. I am sure the truth will come out.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


From what I understand, the guys in the water asked the boat that hit them for a floatation device, they did get that, but the boat kept going with no comment.


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

NCC320 said:


> In this thread, I mentioned anchoring to ride out the storm. Also, there have been many questions regarding the storm. Here is a link from a couple who were caught in the storm and chose to anchor. As some said, the anchor did drag and the couple used the engine to hold the boat in position to avoid going aground. When they became aware of the storm, they got their sails down in time, but in the excitement, forgot to put on life jackets. This is a good read, with lessons for all of us.
> 
> Our Perfect Storm - Life On The Hook


I doubt most of the smaller boats had ground tackle that would do much good in those winds. The boat in your link is a much larger boat than many of those in the regatta. Probably with all chain and a good sized anchor.

I've anchored on the Great Bahama Banks, and been hit by T storms twice at night. It beats the hell out of the boat and crew, but was not an issue since we had plenty of room out there. On the flip side, we got hit by a squall line on the way to the Berry's last year. Midnight. My wife was on watch, and didn't call me up when she saw it coming. We got the sails down just as it was hitting. I sent her below and closed up. I turned down to run with it, engine at idle in gear. Magic. The boat settled down, and all was well except getting wet. Anchoring or trying to motor into the wind and waves would have sucked.

Anyone seen a list of what kind of boats were involved where sailors died in this regatta? I've looked.

Ralph


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> I understand. But you're assuming they _could_ stop. Again, you guys don't know. So you really shouldn't make accusations.


Here it is 3 days after the fact and no comment from the hit and run boat- kind of strange don't you think?

Sailboat organization thanks 'Light O Mobile' for rescuing 3 men, raises money to repair damages

updated April 29, 2015 at 2:57 PM

Sailboat organization thanks 'Light O Mobile' for rescuing 3 men,

The "Light O Mobile" crew rescued three boaters who were aboard a Catalina 22 before a strong storm hit Saturday evening, throwing the teammates into Mobile Bay. The Dauphin Island Regatta disaster damaged the "Light O Mobile" boat, an O'Day 39, and the Catalina 22 National Sailing Association wants to thank the rescuers by raising money to repair their boat.

The "4G" crew made up of Rob Eaves, Larry Goolsby and Tony Cellamare were about a quarter mile from the finish line of the sailboat race when Saturday's storm swept through the area, knocking their Catalina 22 on its side twice before it was hit by an oncoming vessel.

Dauphin Island Regatta Disaster Larry Goolsby and 4G Crew April 27, 2015Rob Eaves of Buchanan, Ga., Larry Goolsby, and Tony Cellamare, both of Centre, Ala., recount Monday morning, April 27, 2015, in Dauphin Island, Ala., how their sailboat, 4G, was hit by a larger sailboat near the finish of the Dauphin Island Regatta. (Mike Kittrell/[email protected]) 
Eaves, Goolsby and Cellamare ended up in the Bay hanging on to one life ring. However, as the "Light O Mobile" crew headed home after crossing the finish line, they spotted the "4G" team floating in the water.

"They saw us and they stayed with us, as true sailors would do," Cellamare told AL.com Monday.

"During the rescue, the O'Day 39 was navigating in difficult waves and wind, and their sail was damaged," Rich Fox, with the Catalina 22 National Sailing Association, posted on the organization's Facebook page Tuesday.

Dauphin Island Regatta Disaster Larry Goolsby April 27, 2015Larry Goolsby of Centre, Ala., recounts Monday morning, April 27, 2015, in Dauphin Island, Ala., how his sailboat was hit by a larger sailboat during the Dauphin Island Regatta. Search efforts continue for boaters missing after being hit a hurricane-strength storm Saturday in Mobile Bay. (Mike Kittrell/[email protected]) 
"As a way to show thanks to the owner of the O'Day 39 from the Catalina 22 sailing community, I am organizing a campaign for cash contributions towards the purchase of a gift certificate from a sail-maker that can be presented to the O'Day 39 owner by the end of June," Fox said.

Fox told AL.com Wednesday that there was some frustration and anger that the "4G" boat was knocked down then ran over. "Everyone also realized that for the second boat, for that skipper and crew to bring on three people, that takes a lot of effort," Fox said.

"Lets do something to show our appreciation and gratitude to the skipper who rescued Larry Goolsby and his crew."

He asked for anyone interested in anonymously donating to this cause to email [email protected] by May 31.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

RTB said:


> Anyone seen a list of what kind of boats were involved where sailors died in this regatta? I've looked.
> 
> Ralph


I read one report that said most if not all the boats that had problems were "lake sailing" boats, not built for coastal sailing- which this turned out to be. Also one report said boats were not required to carry vhf radios.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Post some facts as to why it did not stop.


Why should I make up stuff, too? We'll know soon enough.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Why should I make up stuff, too? We'll know soon enough.


Post Number 196 is fact.


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

Now some facts are starting to emerge:

http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2015/04/james_spann_on_dauphin_island.html


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

NCC320 said:


> Each report that I read has the waves increasing, with numbers 6 to 10 ft. with 8 ft. being most often mentioned. But the duration of the winds has been brief, the waters are shallow, the fetch is not that long, and the waves always appear larger than life when you are in them. Given the shallow water, and judging from what I've seen and heard reported in storms in local large rivers, wouldn't the real height be more like 4-6 ft?
> 
> Of course, in shallow water, those waves are going to be close together and beat you up quite a bit, whatever the height is.
> 
> Running downwind and where speed is getting too high, trailing lines or drogues is a common attempt to slow speed. In the case of the 36 footer running downwind and having the engine available, wouldn't running engine in reverse gear be another suitable way to check speed? If not, why not?


There is no way that those winds are a sustained 60 knots. There are always gusts in a front like this but they are over in seconds. There is also no way any waves reached 8'. That is absurd. The waves in the vid are around 4'...maybe. The boat running helter skelter downwind could easily have slowed and turned upwind with no danger whatsoever. The helmsperson was simply having too much fun sledding downwind.

The idea of heading into the wind is not to make headway in a situation like this. It is to *maintain position*. You are NOT crashing into waves which, of course would be uncomfortable and wet and a silly and useless thing to do. Lying ahull under bare poles is an acceptable alternative BUT you will be drifting alee and maybe forereaching depending on the boat. You will also be broadside and rolling which also is more or less uncomfortable depending on the boat type.

It's pretty easy to overestimate wind speed because it's scary. Just the noise in the rigging is very disconcerting. Ear plugs really work to lessen that effect. Here's a link to the Beaufort scale which is informative:


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

Reading through all these posts of stop or not to stop I am amazed at the number people who:

1. State the boat was in distress. Yes it was heeled over, yes it had up too much sail for the conditions and given the situation would have had a difficult time getting the main down. That's not distress. Distress is the boat filling with water and sinking, or catching fire, or losing maneuverability and getting blown into the rocks, etc etc

Do you know how many boats in Chesapeake Bay match this exact criteria on any given weekend? Yet none are considered in distress.

2. State the larger boat should have rendered assistance: how exactly? Could someone walk me through how they would have rendered assistance in that situation without endangering their own boat and crew?

Talk me through the tactics you would have used to render assistance to the boat in "distress"


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

Based on some of the responses I've seen so far, there are several here that feel like turning the (video) boat beam on to the wind and keeping within ~50' of the small boat (for visibility) would have been the prudent action. 

I disagree.

One person said that calling the CG and alerting them to the small boats location, just in case, would have been useful. That's debatable, since the only thing they could give is a current location and it would not be a CG priority since the small boat crew was still on the boat (others likely were not, at that point). Unless the small boat crew is in the water, dismasted, on fire, etc. I don't think this is 'actionable intelligence' for the CG. But I guess it doesn't hurt to make the call unless channel 16 is jammed with traffic (which is likely). You are doing harm if you step on an actual emergency call to let the CG know that you saw a boat the 'might' be in trouble.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

What the video does not convey at all is the movement of the boat. I suspect that the whoops that we heard were the result of the sudden motions, which produce reactions like those on a roller coaster. Not because we don't care about others, but because it is something from the gut. 

I have to admit that I would not have assumed the other boat was in distress from what I saw, but I am surprised that no one seemed to be using their VHF. I always keep mine on to monitor channel 16, and in that case I might have called the other boat if I suspected major concern.


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## MITBeta (May 13, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> I think you/they are making some big assumptions there. How do you know the intentions of the other boat's skipper/crew?


"Technically the guy left us for dead."

I was only repeating what I read in the article and saw on the video. I've been trying to find out what happened to the other boat, to no avail. Anyone have more information?


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

Different situation. We are discussing a video where a boat traveling downwind passed another boat under sail.

There was another situation where a larger boat "ran-over" a smaller boat and kept going. 
This isn't the situation I am asking about


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> The boat needed to stop. Post some facts as to why it did not stop. And by the way, go ahead and sue me...


I don't have any new facts for you, but I can point out some already known facts that may be germain.

You say they are required to stop after the collision and discount that they may have been out of control. Don't you think that the mere fact of them plowing into another boat, then dragging it shows that they weren't likely under control?

I dunno, I'm just guessing here, but when their rigs were tangled and they were towing the other boat, that would have been another fine time to stop, yet they didn't. I doubt they were still thinking of the finish line, I'm voting for out of control.

MedSailor


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

MedSailor said:


> I don't have any new facts for you, but I can point out some already known facts that may be germain.
> 
> You say they are required to stop after the collision and discount that they may have been out of control. Don't you think that the mere fact of them plowing into another boat, then dragging it shows that they weren't likely under control?
> 
> ...


How is does that quote go that is in some folks signature "anyone can make a sailboat go, but it takes a real sailor to make it stop" or something like that? This is the same storm that blew a train off of the tracks, it was very powerful, no matter people saying it does not look like 70 knot winds.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

smurphny said:


> The idea of heading into the wind is not to make headway in a situation like this. It is to *maintain position*.


Trying to power-hold position bow-in to 60 knots is pretty dicey in my opinion. If you get off just a bit - you're going around, and taking what comes. That's just physics.

Personally, I'll run if I've got the sea room. Physics are much more favorable. And we have a drogue to slow us down if needed. Alternatively, I'd use Jon's method of lying a-hull. I'm not going to try to power into it. No thanks.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Argyle38 said:


> Based on some of the responses I've seen so far, there are several here that feel like turning the (video) boat beam on to the wind and keeping within ~50' of the small boat (for visibility) would have been the prudent action.
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> One person said that calling the CG and alerting them to the small boats location, just in case, would have been useful. That's debatable, since the only thing they could give is a current location and it would not be a CG priority since the small boat crew was still on the boat (others likely were not, at that point). Unless the small boat crew is in the water, dismasted, on fire, etc. I don't think this is 'actionable intelligence' for the CG. But I guess it doesn't hurt to make the call unless channel 16 is jammed with traffic (which is likely). You are doing harm if you step on an actual emergency call to let the CG know that you saw a boat the 'might' be in trouble.


The larger boat could have hit their MOB on their chart plotter so they at least could have the last coordinate of the last position of the small boat. And apparently there was not much ch 16 chatter as many boats in trouble did not carry a vhf, so helping them out with coms to CG would have been nice thing to do, even if not a legal requirement.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Maybe the CG's request will shed some light:

Officials ask participants of Dauphin Island Regatta to fill out questionnaire
Posted: Apr 30, 2015 5:58 AM 
Updated: Apr 30, 2015 6:01 AM 
By Liz Kuy, FOX10 Digital Executive Producer EmailConnect [email protected]
Follow @lizkuy

DAUPHIN ISLAND, AL (WALA) - The Coast Guard and the Alabama Law Enforcement Agency are conducting a joint investigation into the circumstances surrounding the events in Mobile Bay on Saturday during the Dauphin Island Regatta.

The Unified Command requests anyone involved in the Dauphin Island Regatta, or that can provide pertinent information with respect to the events surrounding the Regatta, complete the questionnaire at the following link: http://www.alea.gov/Documents/Documents/MobileBayQuestionnaire.docx

Send the completed questionnaire to Coast Guard Sector Mobile by fax at (251) 441-5682 or by email at [email protected].

Read more: Participants of Dauphin Island Regatta to fill out questionnaire - KPTV - FOX 12


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

smurphny said:


> There is no way that those winds are a sustained 60 knots. There are always gusts in a front like this but they are over in seconds. There is also no way any waves reached 8'. That is absurd. The waves in the vid are around 4'...maybe.


Doesn't she call out wind speeds from the ships anemometer? Im sure it wasn't sustained but it definitely hit 60. Also the camera does not show wave height. 8 feet is nothing. With that wind and a couple miles of fetch, 8 feet would be not be that unusual.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> I don't have any new facts for you, but I can point out some already known facts that may be germain.
> 
> You say they are required to stop after the collision and discount that they may have been out of control. Don't you think that the mere fact of them plowing into another boat, then dragging it shows that they weren't likely under control?
> 
> ...


I am not sure their rigs were tangled, maybe just keels and hulls. In any case, by now they should have come forward and reported the collision to CG. Maybe the request by the CG for such information I just posted will shed some light. But in any case, the law is clear they should have reported the collision asap- maybe they have, but not to the peeps they collided with.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

andrewoliv said:


> Reading through all these posts of stop or not to stop I am amazed at the number people who:
> 
> 1. State the boat was in distress. Yes it was heeled over, yes it had up too much sail for the conditions and given the situation would have had a difficult time getting the main down. That's not distress. Distress is the boat filling with water and sinking, or catching fire, or losing maneuverability and getting blown into the rocks, etc etc
> 
> ...


There are very few boats on the Chesapeake that match such criteria on any given weekend. Say the winds in the vid were sustained 40-50 knots, your telling me that is typical on any given weekend in the Chesapeake, and with 8 foot seas?

As far as rendering assistance, if I were on the larger boat I would have marked position on chart plotter, called in to CG on VHF and circled the boat until peeps were actually in the water or the hazard passed.

Note the larger boat was not running on bare poles, they were motoring and in complete control as stated in a previous post. They said they had completed the race and were headed to home port.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

You're awesome.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Questions for Dauphin Island Race Incident on April 25, 2015
The U.S. Coast Guard and The Alabama Law Enforcement Agency, Marine Patrol Division are conducting a joint investigation into the circumstances surrounding the events in Mobile Bay on April 25, 2015 during the Dauphin Island Race. 
Your responses to this questionnaire are voluntary and greatly appreciated. Please see the attached Privacy Act notice for more information regarding the authority, purpose, and uses of this questionnaire.
Please circle your answers in the Preliminary Questions and provide amplifying information for any “Yes” responses on the lines below. Please provide your contact information at the bottom of the form.
1.	Were you participating in the Dauphin Island Race event on April 25, 2015? Yes/No
2.	Did your vessel, or the vessel you were aboard, sustain any significant storm damage? Yes/No
3.	Did you or anyone on your vessel sustain any injury or fall overboard? Yes/No
4.	Did you or anyone on your vessel witness any injury, person overboard, 
or any other emergency situation aboard another vessel? Yes/No
5.	Did you or anyone on your vessel participate in assisting or rescue of 
another vessel or person? Yes/No
6.	Did you or anyone on your vessel record the events onboard your vessel 
or another vessel, for example using a cell phone video or camera? Yes/No
7.	Did you or anyone on your vessel hear weather alerts from any source
before weather conditions deteriorated? Yes/No 
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Maybe the larger boat passing the smaller over powered boat should have issued a Pan Pan. Considering it is not known if the small over powered boat had coms, this may have been prudent. Of course, maybe the larger boat was not experienced and did not understand the nature of the situation. Also remember, rescue folks weather CG or lifeguards would rather you contact them before a situation turns critical- rescue is easier. 

WHAT ARE THE MARINE
EMERGENCY CALLS

The three spoken international signals are:

Ø MAYDAY-The distress signal MAYDAY is used to
indicate a station is threatened by grave and imminent
danger and requests immediate assistance.

Ø PAN PAN-The urgency signal PAN PAN is used when
the safety of the ship or person is in jeopardy.

Ø SECURITY-The safety signal SECURITY is used for
messages about the safety of navigation or important
weather warnings.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> I don't have any new facts for you, but I can point out some already known facts that may be germain.
> 
> You say they are required to stop after the collision and discount that they may have been out of control. Don't you think that the mere fact of them plowing into another boat, then dragging it shows that they weren't likely under control?
> 
> ...


I agree... After all, in the interview, one of the guys from from G4 stated that the larger boat was coming at them _"UNDER FULL SAIL"_...

That certainly suggests they were likely pretty much out of control, the fact that they had not reduced sail at all in advance of that weather points more towards simple incompetence, rather than some sort of ill intent, at the time...

This account reminds me a bit of an incident that occurred on LI Sound about 12-15 years ago... Some guy was out one night with his family on a 35' powerboat, and crossed behind a large tug towing a barge on a long cable... He hadn't a clue what the tug's lights indicated, and that he was passing between the tug and its tow...

Of course, he got hung up on the cable, and run down by the barge... Everyone aboard was killed, except for the idiot skipper...

Naturally, the inevitable lawsuit against the towing company ensued, and it was a big story played up in the NY media... Reporters covering the story made much of the courtroom testimony of the skipper, who dramatically claimed that - as he was treading water amid the wreckage of his boat - _He repeatedly called out to the tug to stop, BUT THEY JUST KEPT RIGHT ON GOING..._

No word on whether there was ever any expert testimony for the defense, as to the likelihood of such cries from a half mile or more distant would have likely been audible aboard the tug, above the din of its massive diesel humming away, and so on...

I'm not saying this is a similar circumstance, only that at this point, we may not be getting the full story in its larger context, yet...


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

I would venture to guess that many of these skippers may have been in sheer panic mode and thinking about their own survival let alone rescuing anyone else.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Trying to power-hold position bow-in to 60 knots is pretty dicey in my opinion. If you get off just a bit - you're going around, and taking what comes. That's just physics.
> 
> Personally, I'll run if I've got the sea room. Physics are much more favorable. And we have a drogue to slow us down if needed. Alternatively, I'd use Jon's method of lying a-hull. I'm not going to try to power into it. No thanks.


A lot of it depends on the boat. My old deep keeled, narrow boat is very stable and controllable heading into a strong wind. I guess that's why I'm comfortable with a head to wind strategy. I suspect it would be very, very different with other hull shapes which might tend to pound or be blown off. I feel a lot more out of control if going downwind too fast. A drogue seems like a good option in a case like this, running downwind as it would minimize drift and also slow you down. With those size-limited bay waves, there is also no danger of getting pooped as might be the case with breaking seas.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

This is some footage shot of sailboat (engine broke) getting towed in Gulf of Mexico during same April 25th storm:

Man recalls scary experience in must-see video - FOX10 News | WALA

MOBILE COUNTY, AL (WALA) - One man was traveling from Fort Walton Beach to New Orleans when the motor died near Horn Island off the coast of Mississippi.

He called a tow company for help, but as he was being towed, both boats got slammed by horrendous weather - nearly sinking both vessels.

In an intense video shot by a tow boat captain, Morgan Gruen's 41 foot sailboat called the "Dream Seeker" is being towed by a Boston Whaler through the Gulf of Mexico on Saturday afternoon.

"It's a very small tow boat, very large sailboat, and at any second there I was convinced we were both going to go over, but having all that come up, watching the waves crash over the bow, crash over the cabins, crash over me, was terrifying," said Gruen.

Gruen said he lives for adrenaline rushes.

As a profession, Gruen handles predatory animals like alligators, snapping turtles, and venomous snakes.

But, Gruen told FOX10 News this wild ride was something he's never experienced.

"I always love an adventure, that's why I do sailing, and do the things that I do, but I did not anticipate an adventure quite like this," said Gruen.

The man towing Gruen was David Harris of Tow Boat U.S., Up the Creek Towing.

Harris said at one point the tow line was stretched so hard by the enormous waves, that he had to cut the line.

"I was doing my best to maintain the course, heading north, then the strongest winds hit right after that video was taken, it actually got worse, it basically put me at a standstill, I could no longer make any forward progress, I was basically underway, making no way, I picked up a knife and literally cut him loose for a few minutes, because my cowling was popped off because he was jumping off of eight foot waves, he was coming up at such a steep angle it grabbed my motor cover," Harris recalled of Saturday's experience.

Fortunately, after waiting out the storm, Harris was able to throw out another line, and the two boats made it safely back to shore.

Gruen said he owes his life, and the life of his Aunt Pam who was with him at the time, to Harris's heroism.

"It was a memorable experience, being tossed around, I've never been on a boat with such bad weather before, much less being under tow with my motor not working," explained Gruen. "If I was on power, I could head wherever I wanted, do whatever I needed to, but with being under tow, especially with the size boat that was towing me, I was fearful, but the captain for Tow Boat U.S. Was very skilled and talented, seaworthy captain. I owe my life and the life of my aunt to him."

Gruen said he lives on his boat, so he's thankful that both he and his boat are in good shape.

Read more: Man recalls scary experience in must-see video - FOX10 News | WALA


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> This account reminds me a bit of an incident that occurred on LI Sound about 12-15 years ago... Some guy was out one night with his family on a 35' powerboat, and crossed behind a large tug towing a barge on a long cable... He hadn't a clue what the tug's lights indicated, and that he was passing between the tug and its tow...
> 
> Of course, he got hung up on the cable, and run down by the barge... Everyone aboard was killed, except for the idiot skipper...
> 
> ...


Friend of mine was involved in similar incident- be aware:

Francis Coppola's Son Killed In a Motorboating Accident

UPI

Published: May 28, 1986

EDGEWATER, Md., May 27- The son of the movie director Francis Ford Coppola was killed and the actor Ryan O'Neal's son was injured when their motorboat ran under another boat's tow line, officials said today.

Gian Carlo Coppola, 23 years old, of Apple Valley, Calif., suffered major head injuries and was pronounced dead on arrival at Anne Arundel County General Hospital at 6:20 P.M. Monday, a hospital spokesman said.

The spokesman, Lisa Hillman, described Mr. Coppola's head injuries as very severe and said an autopsy would be conducted.

The Memorial Day accident occurred on the South River off the shores of Edgewater, a tourist town with many marinas near Chesapeake Bay.

A police spokesman, Tona Miceli, identified the other passenger as Griffin Patrick O'Neal, 21. She said Mr. O'Neal suffered a minor shoulder injury but refused treatment.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> A drogue seems like a good option in a case like this, running downwind as it would minimize drift and also slow you down. With those size-limited bay waves, there is also no danger of getting pooped as might be the case with breaking seas.


Yeah, but I'd be surprised if you even needed most of the fingers on one hand to count the number of boats on Mobile Bay that afternoon equipped with drogues, or the ability to configure one by streaming warps, old automobile tires, and so on... 

Hell, streaming a Storm Oil Bag might have come in handy, as well 










I dunno, in the sort of chaos that likely ensued out there that day, with being surrounded by so many other boats, and where there is such a high probablilty you might need to rely on your engine in an instant, putting a lot of line in the water would not be without significant risks... Both to yourself, and to other boats...

If I were in the midst of all that, I would certainly hope that everyone else out there was not trailing settee cushions attached to the bitter ends of anchor rodes, or whatever they could find aboard, in the water behind them


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Also remember, rescue folks weather CG or lifeguards would rather _*you*_ contact them before a situation turns critical- rescue is easier.


I've highlighted the most important word in your thought there. They want YOU to contact them if YOU think YOU'RE in trouble.

If I were to Pan-Pan every time I thought _another skipper/boat_ was having some trouble sailing correctly, Jon Eisberg would be widely despised by the CG for requiring so many fly-overs. Heh-heh.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Yeah, but I'd be surprised if you even needed most of the fingers on one hand to count the number of boats on Mobile Bay that afternoon equipped with drogues, or the ability to configure one by streaming warps, old automobile tires, and so on...
> 
> Hell, streaming a Storm Oil Bag might have come in handy, as well
> 
> ...


Yep. Being at the helm with engine just keeping head to wind would be my choice. Heck, the initial heavy brunt of these things invariably blows through in a matter of minutes as can be seen in a lot of the videos. There are the 50 knot gusts which last for about 5-10 seconds followed by deceasing winds. These conditions happen all the time when fronts blow through. This one tragically hit at exactly the wrong time to people who were not prepared for it. Too bad they made the decision to start a race in the face of an approaching front.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> I've highlighted the most important word in your thought there. They want YOU to contact them if YOU think YOU'RE in trouble.
> 
> If I were to Pan-Pan every time I thought _another skipper/boat_ was having some trouble sailing correctly, Jon Eisberg would be widely despised by the CG for requiring so many fly-overs. Heh-heh.


Smacker,
You do not issue a Pan Pan if you or someone else is having trouble sailing correctly. You issue it when it is needed as defined by the CG:

Ø PAN PAN-The urgency signal PAN PAN is used when
the safety of the ship or person is in jeopardy.

You may most certainly issue a Pan Pan for yourself or anyone else you see on the water- but issue it when needed- "when the safety of the ship or person is in jeopardy."

As far as my reference to lifeguards, here in Hawaii quite a few peeps drown because they do not notify the lifeguards as soon as they feel uneasy in a situation. Many times they drown before the lifeguard knows of a problem. So if you feel uncomfortable while swimming or sailing, or you see someone who could become in jeopardy, go ahead and call the CG or lifeguard- that is what they are there for and you will not be disturbing them.

There are many cases where peeps call the CG just to let them know the situation they are in and the details- the CG keeps in contact until the situation is resolved, or they send assets to render aid. Many times here in Hawaii the CG request private boaters to render aid as the response time can be very long for the CG.


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> There are very few boats on the Chesapeake that match such criteria on any given weekend. Say the winds in the vid were sustained 40-50 knots, your telling me that is typical on any given weekend in the Chesapeake, and with 8 foot seas?
> 
> As far as rendering assistance, if I were on the larger boat I would have marked position on chart plotter, called in to CG on VHF and circled the boat until peeps were actually in the water or the hazard passed.
> 
> Note the larger boat was not running on bare poles, they were motoring and in complete control as stated in a previous post. They said they had completed the race and were headed to home port.


I never said 40-50 knots and 8 ft seas was a typical weekend in Chesapeake Bay in my comment. Here is what I said:

Yes it was heeled over, yes it had up too much sail for the conditions and given the situation would have had a difficult time getting the main down. That's not distress. Distress is the boat filling with water and sinking, or catching fire, or losing maneuverability and getting blown into the rocks, etc etc

Do you know how many boats in Chesapeake Bay match this exact criteria on any given weekend? Yet none are considered in distress.

Exact Criteria=Yes it was heeled over, yes it had up too much sail for the conditions and given the situation would have had a difficult time getting the main down. (As you can see no mention of 40-50 knot winds and 8 ft seas)

You would have rendered assistance in the following manner:

1. Marked it on the chart plotter (Good Idea)
2. Called it into the CG on VHF (What exactly would you have told the CG? here is the location of a heeled over sailing vessel with people sitting on the rail that might fall overboard that looks out of control?)
3. Circled the boat. (How exactly? in those 40-50 knot winds and 8ft seas are you going to circle a boat sailing 90 degrees away from you at 5 knots or higher? I might add while your chasing this boat trying to circle it how are you avoiding placing your own crew and boat in danger)

Are we looking at the same video? The video I am looking at the larger boat is clearly running on bare poles downwind.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

andrewoliv said:


> I never said 40-50 knots and 8 ft seas was a typical weekend in Chesapeake Bay in my comment. Here is what I said:
> 
> Yes it was heeled over, yes it had up too much sail for the conditions and given the situation would have had a difficult time getting the main down. That's not distress. Distress is the boat filling with water and sinking, or catching fire, or losing maneuverability and getting blown into the rocks, etc etc
> 
> ...


Yes I read what you previously posted. Big difference in having too much sail up in 20 knots as opposed to 40-50 knots. If I were on the Chesapeake and saw a boat having problems in any wind condition, I would ask if they needed help or stand by until the danger passed. I used to live right on water at Bembe Beach, Annapolis and many times helped peeps that were aground and one case took my windsurfer out in 30 knots wind to help a single handed sailor right his hobie cat 16 and get it in to the closest beach. This sailor had no idea of the situation he was in, and had no idea how to get out of it. Folks don't always know they are in danger.

Forgot to add- I would have called the CG and describe, boat, crew and told them the boat was in danger of knockdown and sinking. I would have followed the instructions CG gave me after that point.

As far as the smaller boat, it was not sailing at 5 knots, the main sheet was let out and sails were flogging. The only movement would be down wind. Also the larger sailboat can not be considered sailing under bare poles. They were motoring as they stated in a later interview and they were in control. I regularly maneuver my sail boat in 8 foot seas and 35 knots of wind with no problem here in Hawaii and motoring in the conditions shown in the vid should be of little problem. If I were worried about my crew, I would have them all below deck with life jackets on and the boat hatches shut. That way I could take a knock down without flooding the boat.


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## bamabratsche (Mar 28, 2011)

I think the major takeaway from all this boils down to one essential lesson everyone should incorporate into their "what-if" planning: if you are caught in a sudden severe thunderstorm, do not upload video footage of it to youtube so that armchair sailors 1000s of miles away can spend days Monday-morning-quarterbacking your tactics.

I grew up on Mobile Bay and now sail on the Chesapeake. I feel like a lot of the people questioning the skipper's actions do not understand how fast these things can come up in the summer. Conditions can go from sunny and calm to what you can see in the video in minutes and then it's back to sunny again. There is often barely enough time to get the sails down and then hang on, much less even consider doing something like deploying a drogue. I also agree that the other boat in the video does not appear to be in immediate distress. I see boats heeled over like that with people on the rail all the time on the Chesapeake on breezy days. Apparently they ran into trouble later, but on the video they just look overpowered but not actually in trouble, IMO.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

bamabratsche said:


> I think the major takeaway from all this boils down to one essential lesson everyone should incorporate into their "what-if" planning: if you are caught in a sudden severe thunderstorm, do not upload video footage of it to youtube so that armchair sailors 1000s of miles away can spend days Monday-morning-quarterbacking your tactics.
> 
> I grew up on Mobile Bay and now sail on the Chesapeake. I feel like a lot of the people questioning the skipper's actions do not understand how fast these things can come up in the summer. Conditions can go from sunny and calm to what you can see in the video in minutes and then it's back to sunny again. There is often barely enough time to get the sails down and then hang on, much less even consider doing something like deploying a drogue. I also agree that the other boat in the video does not appear to be in immediate distress. I see boats heeled over like that with people on the rail all the time on the Chesapeake on breezy days. Apparently they ran into trouble later, but on the video they just look overpowered but not actually in trouble, IMO.


I see what you are saying. But here is the thing. If the folks on the big boat were worried about the conditions they were in, would they not think the small boat (being a much smaller boat) would be in even a worse condition and might even be in danger? So was it just another day on the water for the big boat folks? It seems the thought is in this thread, the big boaters were out of control and scared fearing for their lives, and they could not offer assistance. Is that the way they felt? If so, would not the small boat be feeling the same thing? Why not just a call to the CG so they at least have a last position in case the boat does capsize? The CG likes all the information they can get as is evident from their recent request.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

It seems that when boats get knocked down in severe winds, sometimes they sink. This is usually due to open companionway hatches. My companionway can be secured from inside OR outside, but that poses a problem. If you put all non-essential crew below and keep one or two topside, do you lock from outside or in? 

What is the best way to lock your companionway hatch such that it remains in place during a knockdown but can be opened from inside or outside? 

MedSailor


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> It seems that when boats get knocked down in severe winds, sometimes they sink. This is usually due to open companionway hatches. My companionway can be secured from inside OR outside, but that poses a problem. If you put all non-essential crew below and keep one or two topside, do you lock from outside or in?
> 
> What is the best way to lock your companionway hatch such that it remains in place during a knockdown but can be opened from inside or outside?
> 
> MedSailor


Off shore racing standards dictate the hatch and boards be locked and unlocked from both the deck and from below. If you do a internet search you should be able to find some methods. One method I have seen is barrel bolts on inside that can be unlocked by reaching down from outside- but then you need a way to secure the hatch, that is unlockable from both sides

Here is reg:
3.08 
The main companionway hatch should be fitted with a strong securing arrangement that can be operated from above and below. All blocking arrangements (e.g. washboards) must be capable of being secured in position with the hatch open or shut and should have provision (such as a lanyard) to avoid loss overboard.

My sliding hatch takes a lot of effort to open (actually more than I would like) I could take a full roll over and it would not slide- it takes two hands to open. With the sliding hatch closed, the hatch boards will not fall out. But I should come up with a locking method and also tie them all down so they never go over the side.

Here is full Regulation:

3.08 Hatches & Companionways 
3.08.1 No hatch forward of the maximum beam station, other than a hatch in the side of a coachroof, shall open in such a way that the lid or cover moves into the open position towards the interior of the hull (excepting ports having an area of less than 0.071m2 (110 sq in)). ** 
3.08.2 A hatch fitted forward of the maximum beam station, located on the side of the coachroof, opening into the interior of the boat ,and of area greater than 0.071m2 shall comply with ISO12216 design category A and be clearly labelled and used in accordance with the following instruction: "NOT TO BE OPENED AT SEA". Attention is drawn to SR 3.02.1 ** 
3.08.3 A hatch shall be: 
a) so arranged as to be above the water when the hull is heeled 90 degrees. Hatches over lockers that open to the interior of the vessel shall be included in this requirement. A yacht may have a maximum of four (two on each side of centerline) hatches that do not conform to this requirement, provided that the opening of each is less than 0.071 sq m (110 sq in). Effective for boats of a series begun after January 1, 2009, a written statement signed by the designer or other person who performed the downflooding analysis shall be carried on board. For purposes of this rule the vessel's displacement condition for the analysis shall be the Light Craft Condition LCC (in conformity with 6.3 of the EN ISO 8666 standard and 3.5.1 of the EN ISO12217-2 standard). Mo0,1,2,3,4 
b) permanently attached ** 
c) capable of being firmly shut immediately and remaining firmly shut in a 180 degree capsize (inversion) ** 
3.08.4 A companionway hatch shall: 
a) be fitted with a strong securing arrangement which shall be operable from the exterior and interior including when the yacht is inverted ** 
b) have any blocking devices: ** 
i capable of being retained in position with the hatch open or shut ** 
ii whether or not in position in the hatchway, secured to the yacht (e.g. by lanyard) for the duration of the race, to prevent their being lost overboard ** 
iii permit exit in the event of inversion ** 
3.08.5 If the companionway extends below the local sheerline and the boat has a cockpit opening aft to the sea the boat shall comply with one of the following: Mo0,1,2,3,4 
a) the companionway sill shall not extend below the local sheerline. Or Mo0,1,2,3,4 
b) be in full compliance with all aspects of ISO 11812 to design category A Mo0,1,2,3,4 
3.08.6 For boats with a cockpit closed aft to the sea where the companionway hatch extends below the local sheerline, the companionway shall be capable of being blocked off up to the level of the local sheerline, provided that the companionway hatch shall continue to give access to the interior with the blocking devices (e.g. washboards) in place


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> I would have called the CG and describe, boat, crew and told them *the boat was in danger of knockdown and sinking*. I would have followed the instructions CG gave me after that point.


Yes - at that point there were over 100 boats in danger of exactly the same thing. That's the point. Your call would simply be noise - unless the boat was _actually_ knocked down and sinking - or MOB - etc...which it was not. Those guys on the smaller boat can call the CG if and when they need to. They don't need you to do it preemptively based purely on guesswork.

Now, yes, I know, you would have saved everyone. But as I've said over and over, I would have done exactly what the skipper of the big boat did based on what was seen in the video.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Yes - at that point there were over 100 boats in danger of exactly the same thing. That's the point. Your call would simply be noise - unless the boat was _actually_ knocked down and sinking - or MOB - etc...which it was not. Those guys on the smaller boat can call the CG if and when they need to. They don't need you to do it preemptively based purely on guesswork.
> 
> Now, yes, I know, you would have saved everyone. But as I've said over and over, I would have done exactly what the skipper of the big boat did based on what was seen in the video.


Many peeps did not have vhf. One girl used her water proof cell phone to call the CG once their hobie 16 flipped. Others have mentioned very little chatter on ch16, so not sure if you are correct call would just be noise. You do not know if the boat needs help or not- they are not in communication and you do not even know if they have coms on board or that are working- maybe their cells got soaked.

Yes smack, I know what you would do, but we have a saying here:
Try, Translation: (attempt to)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> It seems that when boats get knocked down in severe winds, sometimes they sink. This is usually due to open companionway hatches. My companionway can be secured from inside OR outside, but that poses a problem. If you put all non-essential crew below and keep one or two topside, do you lock from outside or in?
> 
> What is the best way to lock your companionway hatch such that it remains in place during a knockdown but can be opened from inside or outside?
> 
> MedSailor


See Bill Seifert's OFFSHORE SAILING, Tip #70 for his elegant solution, which has been installed on some older J-Boats (not sure about the newer ones)...

For a quick and dirty method, simply install small cleats beneath the companionway sill inside and out, and run a light line over the top of everything, and cleat it taut...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MedSailor said:


> It seems that when boats get knocked down in severe winds, sometimes they sink. This is usually due to open companionway hatches. My companionway can be secured from inside OR outside, but that poses a problem. If you put all non-essential crew below and keep one or two topside, do you lock from outside or in?
> 
> What is the best way to lock your companionway hatch such that it remains in place during a knockdown but can be opened from inside or outside?
> 
> MedSailor


I'm actually looking into the same thing Med. It's the ability to lock/unlock from the inside AND outside - while keeping everything water-tight - that makes it tricky. Here is my setup:



















As you can see, since our boards are so small (which I like) - it's more about locking the sliding hatch up-top.

I've seen some interesting solutions - but most of them are pretty hacky (e.g. - lock inside and wire running out through a small hole, etc.). I'm still looking for something simple and elegant.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I did an even simpler solution - I bought a couple of hatch dogs from Lewmar and mounted them on the slider


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I look at this vid again and at 2:44 min, the small boat is not moving. End of boom is in the water. The boom is sheet out so that it is parallel to the wind- good call by crew to depower and seeing they did not reef. The only thing keeping the boat from getting knocked down is the crew on the rail.  And full main is up. Seems to me they are in danger.

The thing is, I do not hear any discussion, not a word, among the crew of the larger boat about the situation of the smaller. Just seems really strange to me. Maybe they just all had ESP and agreed the small boat was not in danger. Remember too, the large boat was motoring, they were not sailing under bare poles. Just seems strange.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> See Bill Seifert's OFFSHORE SAILING, Tip #70 for his elegant solution, which has been installed on some older J-Boats (not sure about the newer ones)...


I have his book and like his socket and fast pin solution. But I can't find those parts. Do you know who to go to to order them?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> I have his book and like his socket and fast pin solution. But I can't find those parts. Do you know who to go to to order them?


If Mcmaster carr doesn't have it, it's a custom fabricated part. 

I have the book as well. Will drag it out tonight.

MedSailor


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I got this from Sail Magazine today. Very interesting and timely as one of the deaths in this event was a MOB and the crew not being able to get him back onboard.
ManOverboardractice Techniques | Sail Magazine


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> I have his book and like his socket and fast pin solution. But I can't find those parts. Do you know who to go to to order them?


sorry, I have no idea, I expect that information is outdated by now... Buy a J-40 instead, perhaps? 

You're right, it really is about securing the sliding hatch instead, then the drop boards will take care of themselves...

One of the luckier scores I've ever made in a marine consignment shop, was finding a Bomar cast aluminum/lexan "Sliding Escape Hatch" at Sailorman in Lauderdale, shortly after I acquired my boat... Think I paid about $350 for it at the time, which was a steal... Long discontinued, there's some consignment guy online now selling one missing a number of critical parts for $1200. Massive cast aluminum frame, the thing is bulletproof, and I replaced the original sliding fiberglass companionway hatch on my boat with it... (there's a matching handle underneath, that's missing from this pic)










It has these massive dogs that can be secured from above, or below... I can lock up the boat by locking a length of chain between the dogs to secure them. And, the same thing can be done from inside the boat, in the event I ever decide I want to stop to spend the night in a remote anchorage in Haiti... 

A solution like George describes might be a good one, installing dogs from a manufacturer like Lewmar...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JimsCAL said:


> I got this from Sail Magazine today. Very interesting and timely as one of the deaths in this event was a MOB and the crew not being able to get him back onboard.
> ManOverboardractice Techniques | Sail Magazine


Good post. I like that MOB mat. I was looking for something like that to pull peeps out of the water.


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## saldrich (Oct 10, 2013)

Scary videos.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I think this is the fundamental problem with this regatta/race...



> The Sweet Liberty, a 1976-model Tartan Smith spent four-years restoring, is moored in Orange Beach. For the past two years, Smith traveled about once a month to take the sailboat out on the Gulf.
> 
> Smith said he regularly listens to a weather radio channel but, like others in the race, was tuned into a race channel during the regatta.
> 
> "There was no real warning from the race committee," Smith said, who was racing the boat by himself.


This was a complete newb out there. He didn't know what was going on. And he's putting it on the RC.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/news-...ence-dauphin-island-regatta-tuscaloosa-m.html



> His inboard motor, in addition to the outboard, was swamped and the contents of his cabin had come to rest against the starboard side.
> 
> Afterward, Smith discovered a busted weld on a bracket on the starboard side of the deck as the source of the leak. The bracket was an anchor point for one of the cables, or stays, that attached to the mast. The busted bracket created a hole in the submerged decking allowing water to seep in, Smith said.


Sorry dude. It's all you.

And remember - this was a Tartan...a "blue water" boat that newbs are always pointed toward. The Benes and Hunters did fine.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> I think this is the fundamental problem with this regatta/race...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Yup, you nailed it... Glad you've finally seen the light...

That's quite a turnaround, back from when your were blaming the organizers of the Salty Dawg Rally for the problems experienced by some of the fleet a couple of years ago, no?





smackdaddy said:


> And remember - this was a Tartan...a "blue water" boat that newbs are always pointed toward. *The Benes and Hunters did fine.*


Are you sure about that? Where can I read this full accounting of the experience of all who were out there that afternoon? What kind of boats were each of those who were lost aboard, for instance?

Hmmm, a busted chainplate on a boat almost 40 years old, huh? Wow, there's a shocker... I wonder how that Tartan's keel looks, compared to the one on this Hunter 31, almost a decade younger?



http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...99249-84-hunter-31-weird-keel-hull-joint.html

Hmmm, let's see... A Tartan 30 with a lead keel, designed by some guy named Olin Stephens, versus a Hunter 31 with an iron keel designed by some guy named Cortland Steck?

Decisions, decisions...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Reading one of the recent articles, I came across this rather stunning admission regarding 2 of those lost after, as best as I can determine, their Cal 25 downflooded and sank...



> "It just came up real sudden, you could see something coming," says Ken Allen. "It didn't look anything like what hit. It was 60-70 mile per hours winds."
> 
> Allen is a member of the Jackson Yacht Club. He spoke to the family of Robert DeLayne.
> 
> ...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I got a chuckle reading about that "bracket" and the "sump pump."


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

casey1999 said:


> If the boat can be sealed well, and has a proper righting moment like what a blue water boat would have, I would get all unneeded crew below and close the boat up, with the skipper at the helm. The skipper harnessed and tethered should be able to handle knock down. If your really worried, all below and throw out the anchor. Boats generally survive most storms.


From the Ft Walton Yacht Club newsletter, in an article written by a race participant:

_The Cal 24 the trio were racing on had broached, turtled and sunk. Two other crew members that had gone below to put on their lifejackets had been trapped in the cabin when it sank...and (topside crew) recounted seeing their two fellow crew members float to the surface, lifejackets on, but they were non-responsive with no pulse.
_
This is why I posted, asking if it having everyone topside, PFD's on, is a viable option or plan. Clearly, there is no assurance the keel righting moment will avoid turtling/capsizing and sinking.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Storm tactics for beach cats are different from 22 foot sloops are different from 36 footers. What RichH recommendations for small open boats - get the hence to the windward shore and beach or anchor - remains the best advice, and I say that from personal experience. He also suggests you should be somewhat aware of the weather while out sailing. You don't need a fixed VHF to do this as even a small weather radio will do the trick. In fact they might even be better than a VHF that is locked on to a channel and doesn't hear the weather alerts.
If everyone knows that these things happen with regularity on Mobile Bay, doesn't it seem rational to prepare oneself for such situations and to adequately prepare your crew to deal with adverse weather? There was a thunderstorm WATCH in effect at the time the regatta commenced, yet it seems many boats were only prepared for fair weather sailing. Were the participants notified of this situation? The boat captains surely were obligated to know that a WATCH was issued.
Reef early and often. A couple of weeks ago I went sailing with a novice. Perfect weather was forecast, so I didn't set up the jack lines. About an hour into the sail the SW sky turned rather ominous. And then the weather alerts started. Dangerous thunderstorm located just north of NAS Kingsville (45 miles SW of our location) traveling NE at 45 MPH. I immediately turned around and headed back for the marina. When we were nearing the marina I was already wishing for less sail, but the boat was pitching enough, that with novice crew I was reluctant to leave the cockpit. Put the engine on, but not in gear. Rolled up some of the jib and let the main luff some. As we shot through the inlet into calm water behind the sea wall, I rolled up the jib and got the main down, and motored into the slip. We just got every thing secured when the brunt of the storm hit. I don't think there is a regatta in the world that would make me want to stay out in those conditions.
We often talk here about near shore vs off shore boats. While looking at the video of the Catalina 36, I can't help but think about that boom secured only with a topping lift and main sheet, and still it is swing about quite a bit. If they were facing a good 36 hour blow, they certainly could have used a boom gallows, else they have a wildly flailing boom to deal with before real damage is done. Yet I don't recall any discussion of boom gallows for off shore boats.
As to reporting "a boat in danger", I don't think I would have thought they were in danger so much as crazy racers hell bent for glory. I mean look they haven't even reefer their main. Wow, some people are really crazy.
My take away is that I need to discover which storm tactics work best for my boat, but I really don't want to go out in those conditions to discover them.
Happy sails to you,
John


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## ajoliver (Feb 23, 2007)

As nearly as I can tell from looking at archives from Sailflow and NWS radar, there was a half hour between a REALLY UGLY bow echo radar image and the time the big air hit the boats (racers and others). They had time to reduce sail - the problem apparently was that they we not aware of what was about to occur. 

Without making any judgements about responsibility, how can we improve in getting such information to boats on the water?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

ajoliver said:


> As nearly as I can tell from looking at archives from Sailflow and NWS radar, there was a half hour between a REALLY UGLY bow echo radar image and the time the big air hit the boats (racers and others). They had time to reduce sail - the problem apparently was that they we not aware of what was about to occur.
> 
> Without making any judgements about responsibility, how can we improve in getting such information to boats on the water?


That is a great point and I believe at the crux of these types of tragedies. Knowing about weather should be more important than just about anything else when it comes to any kind of boating. The weather awareness needed when setting out on the water is completely different than what's necessary and usual on land. What seems like a breezy day on land can be a life-threatening day on the water. Passing frontal systems are so darned well predictable these days from so many sources that NOT being versed in weather predicting is really a gigantic compromise to one's safety. How to educate more folks is a difficult one since many folks have little contact with nature nowadays and do not appreciate the danger out on the water. Maybe yacht clubs/sailing programs should focus more on basic maritime weather education.


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## dss30 (Sep 17, 2012)

ajoliver - that's a tough question and one that will be hard to improve. I have read that many of the boats did not have vhf, or were not listening to the weather anyway. For me, I have learner a lot just reading this discussion. Since I have small children, I am rarely out on the bay in bad weather, but the next time I am at the boat, I will be looking to see how I can reduce all sail and canvas in the shortest period of time.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

dss30 said:


> ajoliver - that's a tough question and one that will be hard to improve. I have read that many of the boats did not have vhf, or were not listening to the weather anyway. For me, I have learner a lot just reading this discussion. Since I have small children, I am rarely out on the bay in bad weather, but the next time I am at the boat, I will be looking to see how I can reduce all sail and canvas in the shortest period of time.


I have been sailing a while and never had radar and mostly sail in areas where there is no minute to minute VHF weather radio and I am not sure that I would trust my life and boat to some one else s opinion of what the weather is doing.

What I do do all the time is to keep a 'weather eye' out. Looking upwind at cloud formations changes in the texture of water plus any evidence of rain. Be aware of what is going on UPWIND of you at all times.

The three videos I have watched of the storm all showed clear and unmistakable evidence of a major squall coming. Boats had minutes to drop or at least reduce sail. IMHO any one who did not do so was not exhibiting good seamanship.

*Dropping sails in a hurry*
If you sail short handed consider installing lazy jacks. I have a 44 ft cutter with a full batten main and lazy jacks and can go the mast and just release the halyard, the sail rattles down and stows itself. A single sail tie would secure it if I thought I might be running down wind.

If you have a roller furler headsail life is easy. If it is hank on then consider adding a downhaul, get it down cleat off the downhaul and tie the sail to the life lines with at least two sail ties.

Now I have a confession to make, I almost never wear a harness and over the years there have been times when I should have. Don't be like me. Keep one in the cockpit adjusted to fit you and marked with your name. Practice getting into it. I do have one there in the cockpit I just don't wear it much.

Remember it will be better to reduce sail many times when it turns out you did not have to than to be caught out once.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

ccriders said:


> My take away is that I need to discover which storm tactics work best for my boat, but I really don't want to go out in those conditions to discover them.
> Happy sails to you,
> John


Exactly!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Yup, you nailed it... Glad you've finally seen the light...
> 
> That's quite a turnaround, back from when your were blaming the organizers of the Salty Dawg Rally for the problems experienced by some of the fleet a couple of years ago, no?


Yeaaahhhh no.

Are you honestly equating a regatta lasting a few hours in a bay where you're never more than 4 or 5 miles from land with a ~1500 mile offshore rally spanning a couple of weeks? And comparing a severe thunderstorm to what the SDR faced?

Dude - you're completely missing "the light".

If you want to draw any comparisons between this thing and the SDR it would probably be that inland and coastal sailing is obviously far more dangerous and deadly than offshore sailing.

And I f these people had been following ISAF regs things would have turned out much better - just like with the SDR.

Work on that one a while.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

TQA said:


> Now I have a confession to make, I almost never wear a harness and over the years there have been times when I should have. Don't be like me. Keep one in the cockpit adjusted to fit you and marked with your name. Practice getting into it. I do have one there in the cockpit I just don't wear it much..


I use one of the harnesses with built in auto inflate life jacket. I did remove the co2 so it's just manual inflate, maybe not as safe, but I got my reasons for that. This type harness is very comfortable, and you can clip to the mast or fore deck when working sails at those areas.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

My take away on all this is that the racers should all carry a VHF, at least a hh. Even a cat could carry that and today they are only $100 and throw in another$150 and you can add gps. Maybe even require each boat to have a plb, and if you really want to go all out, a plb for each crew. These electronics are so cheap today especially relative to the cost and maintence of even a small boat, cost should not be an excuse. Every 15 minutes or 1/2 hour the race committee could issue weather reports, if storms really do come up so quickly. Weather reports based on Doppler radar real time to let inexperienced crew know they need to seek shelter or prepare. Some type of inflatable life preserver should be required on all sailors at all times at a minimum


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

casey1999 said:


> My take away on all this is that the racers should all carry a VHF, at least a hh. Even a cat could carry that and today they are only $100 and throw in another$150 and you can add gps. Maybe even require each boat to have a plb, and if you really want to go all out, a plb for each crew. These electronics are so cheap today especially relative to the cost and maintence of even a small boat, cost should not be an excuse. Every 15 minutes or 1/2 hour the race committee could issue weather reports, if storms really do come up so quickly. Weather reports based on Doppler radar real time to let inexperienced crew know they need to seek shelter or prepare. Some type of inflatable life preserver should be required on all sailors at all times at a minimum


Yes, I agree that, given the mix of inexperienced sailors, sparsely-equipped boats and smaller, vulnerable boats in an event like this, there probably ought to be more safety requirements in order to enroll. The requirements for most legit. ocean races are sometimes over the top but long-standing race rules have likely come about for good reasons. The problem for small yacht club races like this one is that they do not want to scare people off with onerous requirements and costly equipment rules. It's supposed to be fun. It takes a lot of effort to get people to comply and to check each boat pre-race. Someone also needs to be the bad guy. I would think many yacht clubs are not equipped or prepared to do this.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Yeaaahhhh no.
> 
> Are you honestly equating a regatta lasting a few hours in a bay where you're never more than 4 or 5 miles from land with a ~1500 mile offshore rally spanning a couple of weeks? And comparing a severe thunderstorm to what the SDR faced?
> 
> Dude - you're completely missing "the light".


No, the only thing I'm "equating" is the fundamental and ultimate responsibility of each skipper, in each and _EVERY_ instance... The location or duration of any voyage has nothing to do with the notion of 'shifting' such responsibility, it rests solely on the shoulders of the skipper whether he's simply motoring from his slip over to the fuel dock, or in the midst of an offshore passage...

Last week's regatta was conducted by the Fairhope YC, to whom an entry fee would have been paid by the participants. The course to be sailed was determined by the organizers, as was the start time of the race, and the decision to proceed with the regatta in light of an uncertain weather forecast. Unfortunately, we have learned that a 'miscommunication' early that day led to the confusion about the event being scratched, and ultimately led to the start being delayed by what turned out to be a very crucial 90 minutes, in hindsight...

On the other hand, the route or departure time of the "loosey goosey" SDR was not determined by the organizers, it was made abundantly clear that any decisions re when to leave, where to leave from, one's final destination, and the choice of the route was left entirely at the discretion of each participant...

How it can be argued that the problems encountered last weekend on Mobile Bay by a "complete newbie" on a Tartan 30, who "didn't know what was going on" are HIS responsibility, and his alone, while at the same time assigning blame to the organizers of the SDR for something like the rudder failure on an Alden 54 owned by an owner with a considerable amount of prior offshore voyaging experience, well... the logic of that argument is completely beyond my ability to comprehend...

But, I'm sure that's just me... 



smackdaddy said:


> And I f these people had been following ISAF regs things would have turned out much better - just like with the SDR.
> 
> Work on that one a while.


18 months later, I'm still waiting for any specific examples of how the problems experienced by the SDR boats who required assistance were a result of any particular ISAF regs not having been adhered to...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Yes, I agree that, given the mix of inexperienced sailors, sparsely-equipped boats and smaller, vulnerable boats in an event like this, there probably ought to be more safety requirements in order to enroll. The requirements for most legit. ocean races are sometimes over the top but long-standing race rules have likely come about for good reasons. The problem for small yacht club races like this one is that they do not want to scare people off with onerous requirements and costly equipment rules. It's supposed to be fun. It takes a lot of effort to get people to comply and to check each boat pre-race. Someone also needs to be the bad guy. I would think many yacht clubs are not equipped or prepared to do this.


Agree. The other thing that could be done is position well equipped and crewed large ocean capable power boats every 1/4 mile or so along the route to assist as needed, and to observe for trouble.

A few years back on a Chesapeake bay swim at Annapolis, 1/2 the swimmers, out of hundreds, needed to be pulled from the water due to counter flowing tides. The next year they placed many more power boats along the route to assist


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## elgatosunrise (Aug 31, 2007)

yikes , that is terrible - Im going to double check my PFDs right now.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

casey1999 said:


> Agree. The other thing that could be done is position well equipped and crewed large ocean capable power boats every 1/4 mile or so along the route to assist as needed, and to observe for trouble.
> 
> A few years back on a Chesapeake bay swim at Annapolis, 1/2 the swimmers, out of hundreds, needed to be pulled from the water due to counter flowing tides. The next year they placed many more power boats along the route to assist


The problem with assist boats is that it is no easy task to assist in gale conditions. With that kind of near zero visibility and gale+ force winds, the assist boats might present a danger themselves unless they were very well equipped and manned with experienced sailors. Power boats with their greater windage would mostly be at a greater disadvantage than sailboats at the height of the frontal passage.

I can remember one of these blowing through New Harbor at Block Island one year when I was anchored there. Even the commercial tow boats, who saw this coming and were well equipped and ready, had a hard time diverting all the boats that pulled anchor and were in trouble. Talk about a Chinese fire drill! It isn't just throwing a line to someone in those conditions. When lines are thrown and attached, bad things can happen quickly unless the line handlers know exactly what they are doing. Things can be ripped out, people yanked overboard, and fingers lost/crushed not to mention line wrapped around props and rudders, etc. Perhaps assist boats could just be assigned to fetch anyone swimming and be equipped to hoist people aboard but even that is very risky in those conditions. Getting people out of a capsized and downflooded hull is really not likely. They could certainly act as locators and radio stations. Best to just call off the races and instead go have a couple of beers if a strong cold front is approaching!


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## ajoliver (Feb 23, 2007)

Seems to me that the mistake made by nearly all the boats that got in trouble was that they did not drop and secure sail in time. If you are under bare poles it is very unlikely that you will be knocked down and/or rolled - although I have seen conditions in which a dinghy crew had to hike way out to keep from capsizing even with no sails up. 
I'm going to suggest to our Learn to Sail Program (which I used to direct) that we emphasize getting sails securely down BEFORE the big air hits.
Even on these threads, it's suprising how many people do not know about this basic rule.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

smurphny said:


> I can remember one of these blowing through New Harbor at Block Island one year when I was anchored there. Even the commercial tow boats, who saw this coming and were well equipped and ready, had a hard time diverting all the boats that pulled anchor and were in trouble. Talk about a Chinese fire drill!


Was that the microburst in Aug/96? I was on the ferry heading to Block when it hit. Gusts to 80! Boats dragged all over the harbor. Not a pretty sight. And on the ferry I saw it coming and went inside and got a seat; most people didn't come in until the rain hit and then the motion was awful and people started tossing their cookies. UGH.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> How it can be argued that the problems encountered last weekend on Mobile Bay by a "complete newbie" on a Tartan 30, who "didn't know what was going on" are HIS responsibility, and his alone, while at the same time assigning blame to the organizers of the SDR for something like the rudder failure on an Alden 54 owned by an owner with a considerable amount of prior offshore voyaging experience, well... the logic of that argument is completely beyond my ability to comprehend...
> 
> But, I'm sure that's just me...


It is just you. Encouraging newbs to do a race in a bay is very different than encouraging newbs to do a 1500 mile offshore run. It's not really that complicated.

We just saw the result of the newbs out there in the bay. And I'm sure standards will be increased for next year's race because of it. Probably based on ISAF regs.

If you're going to organize something - especially if you're making money off of it - take some responsibility.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> It is just you. Encouraging newbs to do a race in a bay is very different than encouraging newbs to do a 1500 mile offshore run. It's not really that complicated.
> 
> We just saw the result of the newbs out there in the bay. And I'm sure standards will be increased for next year's race because of it. Probably based on ISAF regs.
> 
> If you're going to organize something - especially if you're making money off of it - take some responsibility.


Sad thing is a lot of them were not newbs. This is an established race.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

That is sad.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> It is just you. Encouraging newbs to do a race in a bay is very different than *encouraging newbs to do a 1500 mile offshore run.* It's not really that complicated.


Even though people died in the former instance, and no one was lost in the latter ? That "complicates" it bit more, for me...

Guess you must have a different definition of "newbs" than most folks:



> The Salty Dawg Rally is a non-profit organization, with an emphasis on safety, communication, and camaraderie. The Rallies hosted by this organization are free *to sailors with blue water experience ...*


_"Bluewater Newbs"_, perhaps? Do they all sail "Modern Production Boats", perchance?



18 months later, we still await a shred of evidence from you that any of the SARs that year were due to inexperience, or the lack of a Caribbean 1500-style pre-departure inspection...

For the umpteenth time, the evidence supports quite the opposite:

*ZULU* - The Alden 54 that suffered the loss of her rudder... Her owner is a member of the New York, Bristol, and Great Harbor Yacht Clubs. She had previously completed the brutal 2011 NARC rally, with no issues... Verdict: "Inexperience" not likely to be a significant issue...

*JAMMIN'* - the Catalina 42 that also lost her rudder... These folks have been full-time cruisers since 2007, starting from the West Coast... They had made the trip back and forth to the Islands a couple of times before...
Verdict: "Lack of experience" not bloody likely to have been an issue...

*LIKE DOLPHINS* - a Catana 47 that was dismasted... Her owners are from freakin' _BELGIUM_, so they have at least one Transatlantic crossing under their belts...
Verdict: I doubt their dismasting was due to a lack of experience...

*NYAPA *- the Hans Christian 38 also dismasted... This year was to be their 3rd time out cruising for an extended period, their first time out was 25 years ago after they were first married... 2nd cruise was a 5 year affair with their 3 daughters, starting on the West coast, thru the Canal and most of the Caribbean, and ending at home in New England, where they worked to replenish the cruising kitty, and refit for another extended cruise...
Verdict: "Lack of experience"??? Seriously???

*WINGS* - the C-38 abandoned after being 'disabled'... Another full-time cruising couple, their home port was Duluth, MN - you know, on that puny bathtub called _Lake freakin' SUPERIOR_ ? They had already made it down to the Bahamas, spent at least a year without ever coming alongside a dock, then had returned to the Chesapeake, where they planned to sail with the SDR...
Verdict: Information on this couple is the hardest to obtain, but I it certainly does not appear they would fit anyone's reasonable definition of "newbs"...

*BRAVEHEART* - the Tartan 4600 that diverted to Beaufort after a crewmember suffered a broken arm...Her owners were veterans of previous Caribbean 1500s, as long ago as 2006...
Verdict: "Inexperienced"? Yeah, OK, if you say so...

Keep digging, "dude"...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Even though people died in the former instance, and no one was lost in the latter ? That "complicates" it bit more, for me...


Yes. Look, I know you'll never change your position (it's complicated after all) - but if the SDR continues to grow itself via the low bar it has on experience and safety - it's simply a matter of time before conditions overcome participants with a very bad outcome (_again_). No doubt.

This Dauphin Island Regatta is a perfect example of this phenomenon as I said earlier - an example of what can happen when it _really_ goes bad - under a seemingly poor standard of safety (SIs here: http://fairhopeyachtclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/57DIRaceSI2015.pdf). I have little doubt that this regatta will make some significant changes and up those standards of safety and experience (even though it's "bay sailing"). It remains to be seen whether the SDR will do the same - or just continue to gamble*.

-*EDIT-

As for that digging...I'm happy to see that the SDR is starting to take my advice: http://saltydawgrally.org/recommended-equipment/

And, ahm, I assume you did see this as well? http://saltydawgrally.org/cruising-compass-outfitting-your-sailboat-for-safety-at-sea/



> The International Sailing Federation (ISAF) and U.S. Sailing have been leaders in the safety at sea movement for many years, and as such, have developed a set of safety recommendations for what offshore quality yachts and their crews should have aboard when heading out over the horizon...


Should I "keep digging"? Heh-heh.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Yes. Look, I know you'll never change your position (it's complicated after all) - but if the SDR continues to grow itself via the low bar it has on experience and safety - it's simply a matter of time before conditions overcome participants with a very bad outcome (_again_). No doubt.
> 
> This Dauphin Island Regatta is a perfect example of this phenomenon as I said earlier - an example of what can happen when it _really_ goes bad - under a seemingly poor standard of safety (SIs here: http://fairhopeyachtclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/57DIRaceSI2015.pdf). I have little doubt that this regatta will make some significant changes and up those standards of safety and experience (even though it's "bay sailing"). It remains to be seen whether the SDR will do the same - or just continue to gamble*.


Well it appears that all boats are required to have a VHF for safety.



> 13. RADIO COMMUNICATIONS
> 13.1 The Race Committee will monitor VHF channel 68.
> 13.2 A boat shall neither make nor receive special radio transmissions not available to all boats. This does not preclude distress signals or notification of retirement.
> 13.3 All boat shall carry VHF radios, no matter size or Class rules, for safety purposes.


So if there were boats out there without radio they were not in compliance with the rules.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

In the SI's, they call this race a "Category C". I cannot find the definition on the US Sailing Website. Is this the same as ISAF Category 5?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

sailordave said:


> Was that the microburst in Aug/96? I was on the ferry heading to Block when it hit. Gusts to 80! Boats dragged all over the harbor. Not a pretty sight. And on the ferry I saw it coming and went inside and got a seat; most people didn't come in until the rain hit and then the motion was awful and people started tossing their cookies. UGH.


No, not that long ago. It was probably the summer of 2010?? maybe 2011. The winds never hit 80 but certainly 60s as the front passed through. Before coming across BIS, it did quite a lot of damage on the mainland so was a serious weather event with plenty of advance warning. Had to be 20 boats dragging, right around dusk when it hit, playing bumper boats around the harbor The tow boats, harbormaster, and the launch had their hands full. I was anchored in the deep 30' hole in the center of the harbor but stayed put, watching the show. It seems every time I go there, some kind of "Are we having fun yet?" event takes place.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Yes. Look, I know you'll never change your position (it's complicated after all)


On the contrary, my position has always been quite simple: A skipper is _SOLELY_ responsible for the preparation of his yacht, and whatever occurs during any voyage... As laws of the Sea go, that's about as fundamental as it gets, and I see no reason to change my view...

_Your_ position(s), on the other hand, are the ones that are "complicated", and appear to shift with the winds... A newbie sailing a Tartan 30 on Mobile Bay, for instance, apparently bears that time-honored sole responsibility... Yet, when more experienced sailors get into trouble 200 miles off Hatteras in November, you point the finger at a rally organization, instead... And while no one was lost in the SDR, apparently "encouraging" experienced cruising sailors to sail to the islands is far more egregious than encouraging newbies to partake in a regatta in which several sailors perished... "Complicated", indeed...



smackdaddy said:


> - but if the SDR continues to grow itself via the low bar it has on experience and safety - it's simply a matter of time before conditions overcome participants with a very bad outcome (_again_). No doubt.


In other words, _"OK, so there's no evidence to support my argument that the difficulties those boats had can be attributed to the 'low bar' the SDR set , BUT IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME before that may happen..."_

Certainly, it's just a matter of time before more boats get into trouble sailing to the islands in November. It's been happening forever, no reason that's gonna change... But, when one of those boats happens to be sailing in the Caribbean 1500 instead of the SDR, what, precisely, is that going to _prove_ ?



smackdaddy said:


> -*EDIT-
> 
> As for that digging...I'm happy to see that the SDR is starting to take my advice: RECOMMENDED EQUIPMENT | Salty Dawg Rally


LOL! Yeah, no doubt it is _YOUR_ advice they are taking 



smackdaddy said:


> Should I "keep digging"? Heh-heh.


If you're ever gonna provide a single shred of evidence that those SARs off Hatteras 18 months ago were a result of inexperience, or the SDR's "loosey-goosey" approach, looks like you're gonna have to...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

miatapaul said:


> ...So if there were boats out there without radio they were not in compliance with the rules.


Or they weren't participating in the race.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> In the SI's, they call this race a "Category C". I cannot find the definition on the US Sailing Website. Is this the same as ISAF Category 5?


I was wondering the same thing. No Category C that I could find.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm wondering if the "Category C" is a Euro/ISO rating like "Cat A" is ocean, then "Cat B" inshore and "C" Bays? The SI's are much different out here in SF, you ought to go over to our YRA website and look at all the "standing" rules and instructions. Make your heads spin. But despite all that, there was a dismasting on Sunday's Vallejo race, along with several torn and blown headsails so no matter how many rules you compile, bad things will still happen. There still is an inherent risk to our sport. And perhaps the danger is one of the tings that appeals to us.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> On the contrary, my position has always been quite simple: A skipper is _SOLELY_ responsible for the preparation of his yacht, and whatever occurs during any voyage... As laws of the Sea go, that's about as fundamental as it gets, and I see no reason to change my view...
> 
> _Your_ position(s), on the other hand, are the ones that are "complicated", and appear to shift with the winds... A newbie sailing a Tartan 30 on Mobile Bay, for instance, apparently bears that time-honored sole responsibility... Yet, when more experienced sailors get into trouble 200 miles off Hatteras in November, you point the finger at a rally organization, instead... And while no one was lost in the SDR, apparently "encouraging" experienced cruising sailors to sail to the islands is far more egregious than encouraging newbies to partake in a regatta in which several sailors perished... "Complicated", indeed...


Okay - because I'm kind and incredibly patient - I'll try one more time. You're right - the skipper bears the ultimate responsibility for his/her boat and crew. No question.

Now, was this Tartan 30 skipper qualified or prepared for whatever occurred on his voyage? No. Not by a loooooooong shot. I think we can definitely agree on that. Yet - according to the organization that put on the regatta - he _was_ ready. You saw the SIs I presume?

That's why his quotes were so telling (as I was pointing out):



> "I was trying to step into the big-boy world of racing," Smith said.





> "There was no real warning from the race committee," Smith said, who was racing the boat by himself.


With very lax standards, the regatta let him step right into that big-boy world. _He assumed he was ready_ for your time-honored "A skipper is _SOLELY_ responsible for the preparation of his yacht, and whatever occurs during any voyage" - and he was "accepted" as such by the organization. Yet he wasn't ready at all - and he thought the organization would take care of him if things got bad. He shouldn't have been out there in the first place if there were even a _hint_ of possible bad weather.

Extrapolate that to the SDR and its big-boy world of off-shore cruising. If a newb errantly thinks he's ready for that time-honored ultimate responsibility in the Gulf Stream - and the SDR accepts him as such when he's not...that newb is being set-up for exactly the same type of disaster we saw here.

It's very simple really. It's called a false sense of preparedness/security.

In any case, this argument doesn't really matter anymore. The SDR is obviously starting to adopt and promote the ISAF regs I've been advocating since the beginning (much to your chagrin, I'm sure). This is a good first step. In the long run, especially if there are more incidents, I'm sure they'll move to the same system as the C1500 (formal standards, inspections, etc.)...or will significantly raise the bar of experience for entry. That's the way it should be to avoid the kind of scenario we've just seen play out.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

I saw the comment that said that some of the boats were monitoring the race committee channel and did not hear the weather. Every modern VHF I have seen is capable of getting weather alerts from NOAA. I have had those go off when sailing. They give plenty of warning of the kind of squall they had, and the alarms are hard to miss. That seems like no excuse for not being prepared. Does anyone know if there was a NOAA alert?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Extrapolate that to the SDR and its big-boy world of off-shore cruising. *IF* a newb errantly thinks he's ready for that time-honored ultimate responsibility in the Gulf Stream - and the SDR accepts him as such when he's not...that newb is being set-up for exactly the same type of disaster we saw here.
> 
> It's very simple really.


That's a pretty big "If"...



_IF_ you had any evidence that the organizers of the SDR had knowingly accepted participants they thought had less than sufficient experience, I'm guessing you would have brought it a long time ago...



smackdaddy said:


> It's called a false sense of preparedness/security.


Hell, that's the very _FOUNDATION_ of the Rally Concept, for chrissake! 

Especially, the ones that offer inspections, and that Stamp of Approval that you're 'good to go' 

But you're right, this no longer matters, it's not the subject of this thread, and I'm gonna be out of here for awhile, anyway...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

As always there's lots of stuff that should be considered before the snot flies...

The last bad micro-burst we experienced put all but two boats in the anchorage on the solid granite shore. We spent the afternoon and evening pulling badly damaged boats off rocks. Complacency and not being prepared caught these boats by surprise.

Considering micro-bursts don't just happen when we are sailing some may also want to think about the lackadaisical "lunch-hook" approach to anchoring in "settled weather".

This event is very tragic, sad and frustrating all at the same time and yet sadly it is another black eye on the sailing community in general.

My hip shoot on this is that a lot of the mayhem likely could have been minimized if more boaters monitored VHF 16 and had a VHF radio that does NOAA emergency weather alerts. Our VHF does this and there is NO IGNORING IT. The NOAA alerts for weather like this are not ignorable and are very, very loud.

Perhaps if we could get rid of the ignoramuses who insist on illegally radio checking on VHF 16, and the useless "Facebook" level of chatter on 16, that drives people to not monitor it, more would actually monitor the VHF and we would all be safer and better prepared for weather events like this.

In one video, shot during the storm by the Catalina 36, I noted zero VHF chatter and I played it very loudly specifically listening for it.. I find it a little hard to believe that in a 17 minute video, of a storm this intense, there would be NADA, ZILCH & NOTHING going on with VHF 16, you know, the hailing and distress channel.....?

We are required by law to be monitoring VHF 16, if the vessel is equipped with one. Is it possible a Catalina 36 does not have even one VHF on board? Would the race even allow participation without a VHF? Monitoring VHF 16 means being able to hear it, and no matter how loud I played that video, I heard no VHF chatter......... Here in Maine we can't go 30 seconds on VHF 16 without some dolt asking for at least a radio check......

IF that boat was not monitoring VHF 16 what could they have possibly missed that they may have been able to help with, even something as simple as throwing a life jacket or ring buoy to a person in the water..? Perhaps the other boat they saw was trying to hail them? I don't know?

What I do know is that we are required by law to monitor VHF 16, I could absolutely not hear it in that video? Maybe it is there and someone can correct me but from what I heard it was apparently not on or not on loud enough to qualify for "monitoring"....

There really is no excuse today for not having a VHF that can perform the simple functions below. Course you need to have the damn thing ON, as you are REQUIRED to, in order for these _weather alerts_ to actually _alert_ you.....

"NOAA Weather channels and Weather Alert

10 NOAA and Canadian Weather channels are pre-programmed and easily selectable using the dedicated WX key. In addition, the MATRIX AIS+ can be set to monitor WX channels *and provide an audible alert to inform of pending storm advisories.*"

Sorry for the rant but my friend saved a mans life by monitoring VHF 16, so yes, I do take my legal requirement to monitor VHF 16 seriously. Rant off...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Maine Sail said:


> As always there's lots of stuff that should be considered before the snot flies...
> 
> The last bad micro-burst we experienced put all but two boats in the anchorage on the solid granite shore. We spent the afternoon and evening pulling badly damaged boats off rocks. Complacency and not being prepared caught these boats by surprise.
> 
> ...


Not only does a VHF need to be ON but it needs to be where it can be heard above the very loud sounds of wind blowing. That is why a h/h is so useful because it can be kept near you where it can actually be heard. My main VHF, a good ICOM, is useless if I cannot hear it from a distance which is often the case. I'm sure this must be the same on many boats because the effective sound range of a stationary VHF is just a few feet when the wind is howling past your ears and in the rigging and the signals are not very clear to begin with.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

For those that don't know how to radio check away from 16:

Sea Tow's Automated Radio Check

PS - When we were hit by 50+ knot winds a couple of weeks ago in the slip - our VHF was going crazy with the NOAA alerts. The CG was also calling out advisories. Maine's right - you can't miss them unless your radio is off.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Not only does a VHF need to be ON but it needs to be where it can be heard above the very loud sounds of wind blowing. That is why a h/h is so useful because it can be kept near you where it can actually be heard. My main VHF, a good ICOM, is useless if I cannot hear it from a distance which is often the case. I'm sure this must be the same on many boats because the effective sound range of a stationary VHF is just a few feet when the wind is howling past your ears and in the rigging and the signals are not very clear to begin with.


Many radio have a remote hand held unit for you cabin installed unit- has all the controls on it including mic and speaker- that way you get the range and signal capture off your main vhf antenna, plus the 25 watt output. 
http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/marine/commandmic/commandmic/default.aspx
You can hold the unit right next to your ear while you steer the boat. Units cost about $100. Most Icom base units are remote capable. Handhelds are not that good- but better than nothing.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Although Smack doesn’t like to hear it, just like certain aspects of the LSC tragedy, this kind of boils down to proper radio usage. The SI’s were a little weak in their radio instructions. As ch68 was the race frequency, they should have repeated the weather alerts they heard on 16. (I have never heard a weather alert on ch16, but I sail on the west coast where the weather is always nice.) I wonder if they will have two radios on the race deck in the future – one for 16 and one for the race freq. I still think that the C36 boat should have called in a position report on that smaller boat. Last weekend on the Vallejo Race, there were multiple radio calls with position reports when the one boat dismasted.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> (I have never heard a weather alert on ch16, but I sail on the west coast where the weather is always nice.)


I sail on the fairer coast as well, and I think I may have heard a weather warning bundled into the USCG "securite" scheduled notice to mariners but I couldn't say for sure. I certainly don't expect to hear anything about the weather on 16.... that's what the WX channels are for. I haven't had my radios always set for NOAA weather alerts, but again, around here we don't get tornadoes, hurricanes, T-storms and the like. Gales, storms etc sure, but those have more warming signs, are seasonal and don't tend to "come out of nowhere."

Medsailor


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Here in San Francisco Bay you will hear the Coastguard announce an announcement (as it were) on 16, with an instruction to switch to 22A for the details. I do remember one weather alert done this way.

Smackdaddy : It remains a ridiculous omission that SF Bay has no automated radio check. It would certainly help to reduce the clutter on 16. It would also assist with checking one's radio


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MarkSF said:


> Smackdaddy : It remains a ridiculous omission that SF Bay has no automated radio check. It would certainly help to reduce the clutter on 16. It would also assist with checking one's radio


No argument there. I mean, there's ARC in freakin' Nebraska but not SF Bay? Is there some kind of local regs that would prevent the service?


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I think the problem is that it is Sea Tow who are doing it. Here in SF Bay, it seems to be Vessel Assist who are the main providers of towing, and they are not involved in the ARC provision.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Here you go :

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=187039924707505&story_fbid=277991788945126

I quote "we are looking for ARC station hosts in the Great Lakes region, San Francisco Bay Area and the Pacific Northwest". This was in 2012. They seem to have done sod all in 3 years.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

casey1999 said:


> Many radio have a remote hand held unit for you cabin installed unit- has all the controls on it including mic and speaker- that way you get the range and signal capture off your main vhf antenna, plus the 25 watt output.
> HM162B/SW Remote-Control Microphone - Features - Icom America
> You can hold the unit right next to your ear while you steer the boat. Units cost about $100. Most Icom base units are remote capable. Handhelds are not that good- but better than nothing.


Right. I know the ICOM 604 has a remote option, the CommandmicIII, and I should buy one but they're pretty expensive. My el cheapo h/h from West Marine was around $70 and works fine. Of course it does not transmit or receive anywhere near as well as the base unit, having only 5w max. The ICOM remote is around $200 as I remember and you still need an external speaker.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I actually find the reduced range of the handheld to have some advantages. Firstly, the chatter on the fixed VHF is just ridiculous. On the handheld, it is greatly reduced. My attitude is this : If I can't hear it on the handheld, it's too far away to do anything about anyway. If I were sailing in the ocean, it would be a different matter. I might still be the closest boat to assist an emergency if I were 20 miles away. In the bay, what's the point of heading off to an emergency 20 miles away at 5 kts? There will be a thousand boats that are closer.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

MarkSF said:


> *I actually find the reduced range of the handheld to have some advantages. Firstly, the chatter on the fixed VHF is just ridiculous. On the handheld, it is greatly reduced. My attitude is this : If I can't hear it on the handheld, it's too far away to do anything about anyway.* If I were sailing in the ocean, it would be a different matter. I might still be the closest boat to assist an emergency if I were 20 miles away. In the bay, what's the point of heading off to an emergency 20 miles away at 5 kts? There will be a thousand boats that are closer.


YES YES YES!!!!!

I completely agree 100% and that is why I prefer a handheld up on the cockpit. In addition the USCG around here has huge broadcast towers and they will repeat any Mayday they hear.

Furthermore, nearly every vessel I hail is within line of sight and is only a few miles or less away. By my using a handheld I am not contributing to the channel 16 clutter any more than necessary when I call the marina or the boat nearby.

In fact, by using my handheld I was able to HELP the USCG find a vessel in distress where a masthead antenna would not have helped. The USCG heard a faint Mayday call and started asking vessels in the vicinity who had, and who had not heard it and they wanted to know the height of our antennas so they could better triangulate. The fact that I heard it on my handheld, only 6 feet above the water meant they had a really good fix on where to send the chopper to go look.

My ideal setup is a handheld and RAM mike in the cockpit. That way it's easy to monitor 2 channels if necessary, and I can listen on the handheld and if needed transmit far and wide on the main VHF.

MedSailor


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Right. I know the ICOM 604 has a remote option, the CommandmicIII, and I should buy one but they're pretty expensive. My el cheapo h/h from West Marine was around $70 and works fine. Of course it does not transmit or receive anywhere near as well as the base unit, having only 5w max. The ICOM remote is around $200 as I remember and you still need an external speaker.


Here it is for less than $100, and it does have built in speaker:
Icom IC-HM157SW CommandMicII Remote Speaker / Microphone / Controller

Maybe other areas have too much chatter for anything other than a hand held, but out here most of the chatter is for missing boats or boats that need help, and to reach the CG, a hand held may not work, you may be minimum 20 miles to the CG base antenna and probably much more. And many time the CG ask other boaters if they have contact with the Mayday as the CG is having hard time picking up sig and they request relay.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

casey1999 said:


> Here it is for less than $100, and it does have built in speaker:
> Icom IC-HM157SW CommandMicII Remote Speaker / Microphone / Controller
> 
> Maybe other areas have too much chatter for anything other than a hand held, but out here most of the chatter is for missing boats or boats that need help, and to reach the CG, a hand held may not work, you may be minimum 20 miles to the CG base antenna and probably much more. And many time the CG ask other boaters if they have contact with the Mayday as the CG is having hard time picking up sig and they request relay.


Wow. I looked at Defender but did not see it. Thanks. The CG seems to have some pretty sophisticated equipment that picks up even weak signals but getting the signal up at the masthead is certainly better overall. Besides that, the ICOM has a really clear output, much better than the h/h. My h/h is also getting long in the tooth. The ICOM also has the MMSI i.d. signal that the h/h does not. Just ordered one. The stock seems to be running out in most places.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Wow. I looked at Defender but did not see it. Thanks. The CG seems to have some pretty sophisticated equipment that picks up even weak signals but getting the signal up at the masthead is certainly better overall. Besides that, the ICOM has a really clear output, much better than the h/h. My h/h is also getting long in the tooth. The ICOM also has the MMSI i.d. signal that the h/h does not. Just ordered one. The stock seems to be running out in most places.


Unfortunately, the chintzy remote connector that Icom uses is a total piece of crap, virtually guaranteed to fail over time in the marine environment... Shockingly poor quality from a vendor as highly regarded as Icom, there is no comparison between their crappy plugs, and the far more robust and watertight assembly used by Standard Horizon, for instance...

If you go go with one of those Icom mikes, I strongly suggest you try to mount it as out of the weather as possible, inside a cockpit coaming box, or something...

And, treat it gently, don't ever give it a tug, _because it is a poorly designed flimsy piece of crap ..._


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Unfortunately, the chintzy remote connector that Icom uses is a total piece of crap, virtually guaranteed to fail over time in the marine environment... Shockingly poor quality from a vendor as highly regarded as Icom, there is no comparison between their crappy plugs, and the far more robust and watertight assembly used by Standard Horizon, for instance...
> 
> If you go go with one of those Icom mikes, I strongly suggest you try to mount it as out of the weather as possible, inside a cockpit coaming box, or something...
> 
> And, treat it gently, don't ever give it a tug, _because it is a poorly designed flimsy piece of crap ..._


You are absolutely right. I replaced my ICOM with the SH GX2200. MUCH better ram connection - with added AIS/GPS. Very cool.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Unfortunately, the chintzy remote connector that Icom uses is a total piece of crap, virtually guaranteed to fail over time in the marine environment... Shockingly poor quality from a vendor as highly regarded as Icom, there is no comparison between their crappy plugs, and the far more robust and watertight assembly used by Standard Horizon, for instance...
> 
> If you go go with one of those Icom mikes, I strongly suggest you try to mount it as out of the weather as possible, inside a cockpit coaming box, or something...
> 
> And, treat it gently, don't ever give it a tug, _because it is a poorly designed flimsy piece of crap ..._


Supposedly the model SW is an improved version of the old model and has an upgraded cord/plug, but I do like Standards quality.


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## Moke (Oct 25, 2014)

I saw a news report on this. They knew that there was some weather that might come up but they said the storm came in so fast no one was ready. I saw one boat handing people the spare life jackets in the middle of the storm. Very scarey.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Unfortunately, the chintzy remote connector that Icom uses is a total piece of crap, virtually guaranteed to fail over time in the marine environment... Shockingly poor quality from a vendor as highly regarded as Icom, there is no comparison between their crappy plugs, and the far more robust and watertight assembly used by Standard Horizon, for instance...
> 
> If you go go with one of those Icom mikes, I strongly suggest you try to mount it as out of the weather as possible, inside a cockpit coaming box, or something...
> 
> And, treat it gently, don't ever give it a tug, _because it is a poorly designed flimsy piece of crap ..._


I'll see if I can arrange some sort of backup tension attachment so that if the things gets pulled, the cord and not the connector gets stressed. ICOM is not alone in producing crappy connectors. The cable connector on my Furuno radar head quickly cracked with no abuse whatsoever. Just a flimsy piece of junk. It's hard to believe that the "engineers" in these companies could design such ill designed equipment for the marine environment. My relatively expensive Standard Horizon h/h also crapped out without warning last year. So, no one of these companies holds the award for worst designed equipment. They also have lousy/ non-existent responses to complaints about their crap. The only piece of electronics for which I have a positive comment is my old Garmin 376C which seems to be a very well made device.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

Cheapskate that I am, I still have always felt the investment of a hundred bucks or so on a hand held is well worthwhile. My setup was a handheld plus the masthead VHF. I always monitored the handheld, because it was next to me. I recently upgraded the boat VHF and now have the remote mike as well, so I can hear the masthead VHF in the cockpit, but I still carry the handheld every time, as a backup. it always seemed to me that if I ever was dismasted, it might be a convenient time not to lose communication. I also always stuff it in my pocket when single handing, so when the boat floats away with my masthead VHF, I at least have a chance of making a call. Yes, it is supposed to be waterproof.


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## MITBeta (May 13, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> I wonder if they will have two radios on the race deck in the future - one for 16 and one for the race freq.


My handheld radio allows me to scan multiple "favorite" channels, including 16 and 9. It also has a weather alert button and floats (a feature I inadvertently tested recently...). I have to imagine that most newer radios have these same features -- all of the older handhelds at my club do.

My procedure before boarding the boat is to turn on the radio, tune to channel 27 (Boston Harbor) for a Sea Tow automated radio check, set the channel back to 69 (which my club uses), push the 16/9/Scan button, push the weather alerts button, push and hold the LOCK button. Now we're ready to get on the boat!


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I really don’t use the Tag function on my ICOM when racing. I am afraid of missing something on the RC channel while the radio is set on the jibber-jabber over on 16. I do like it to Tag the VTS channels as I like to get updates on ship movements. 

The best of all worlds would be everyone to have a MMSI radio with a RAM in the cockpit. The downside is if you make this a requirement you are going to restrict racing to the elite with deep pockets. I think that the Gulf CG will ultimately recommend that the Race Committee be more proactive in their radio instructions. The RC should have two radios. One set on the race channel and the other one to receive weather and to communicate with the CG without potentially missing a call from a racer. Easier for them to have two radios than requiring a hundred or more racers to all upgrade their radios. That way the racers will monitor the race channel (and not the other way around) for RC announcements regarding weather and other conditions. If you want an eye-opener on equipment requirements, go over to our YRA/OYRA website and check it out. For example, racing outside the Gate requires SOLAS flares. The USCG approved ones are not sufficient. At $100 a pop, racing can get a little “spendy” out here.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

GeorgeB said:


> I really don't use the Tag function on my ICOM when racing. I am afraid of missing something on the RC channel while the radio is set on the jibber-jabber over on 16. I do like it to Tag the VTS channels as I like to get updates on ship movements.
> 
> The best of all worlds would be everyone to have a MMSI radio with a RAM in the cockpit. The downside is if you make this a requirement you are going to restrict racing to the elite with deep pockets. I think that the Gulf CG will ultimately recommend that the Race Committee be more proactive in their radio instructions. The RC should have two radios. One set on the race channel and the other one to receive weather and to communicate with the CG without potentially missing a call from a racer. Easier for them to have two radios than requiring a hundred or more racers to all upgrade their radios. That way the racers will monitor the race channel (and not the other way around) for RC announcements regarding weather and other conditions. If you want an eye-opener on equipment requirements, go over to our YRA/OYRA website and check it out. For example, racing outside the Gate requires SOLAS flares. The USCG approved ones are not sufficient. At $100 a pop, racing can get a little "spendy" out here.


George,
Don't you think the relative cost to having proper radios and flares is small compared to the cost of the boat cost like insurance, docking, maintenance, sails, ect.? So it cost $800 to outfit your boat, most real racers probably spend that amount at the bar over a couple months (by the way, I don't race, but the racers I know- this is what they do).

Here is a GPS equipped radio that you can add RAM for under $200:
http://www.tacticalwholesalers.com/...lack-Class-D-25-Watt-VHF-GX1700B_p_92558.html

Here is RAM (has built in speaker) for less than $100 for above radio:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|344|2028693|2028957&id=1133628


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Casey, The $800 will just about cover the SOLAS flare requirement. Check out our YRA/OYRA website, there is a whole lot more. Off the top of my head, I'd say you need several thousand dollars to meet our equipment requirements (OYRA). Now, if you were a father-daughter team on a Santana or Catalina 22, this would be a quarter to a third of the cost of your boat. It seems that there a lot of small boats (with small budgets) that race in Mobile Bay. Significantly upping the equipment requirements is going to eliminate them and make racing there more elitist. Remember, that except for this storm event, Mobile Bay is a ISAF Cat 4 environment.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The specs. on SOLAS parachute flares is so much better than CG minimum signaling devices that it's probably a good idea to have at least one even if not for racing requirements, especially if going offshore. They will get up almost 1000' and burn for 40 seconds. They can also be picked up at a local WM, shipped for free. I keep ONE on board.http://www.westmarine.com/buy/orion--red-parachute-solas-signal-rocket--2356020


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Saw this over on SA, and thought it a worthy addition to this thread... An extremely detailed and comprehensive analysis of the weather that day...

Again, especially given the number of smartphones and the like that were likely out on Mobile Bay that afternoon, seems incomprehensible how anyone would have been caught with too much sail up, or otherwise surprised or unprepared for what was heading their way...

Dauphin Island Race-2015


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