# Genoa sheets knots, tip for newbies



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

OK, here is a cool tip for newbies and others...off course my expereince, and nothing other, many may not agree, I don't mind.(or care)

One of the first things we learn once you start operating in the bow of boats is the knots that tie the genoa sheets to the sail..so far so good










Most people, just tie a bowline or any other similar knot, and many many tie the knot as near and short as possible..see bellow










well I don't do that, and so no one I know. I normally tie the knot as long as possible, (see blue arrow bellow, I will explain why...










but the loop can't be too long, as it may prevent the sheet to get in the genoa track car sheave. The knot should be at least 3 inches before it reaches the sheave.See red arrow above

WHY??

Well one of the main reasons is that in a storm, in a hurry or any other emergency, the longer the knot is from the sail, the further in it is inside the boat, so one does not have to expose and stretch outside the boat to reach the knot in an emergency, which is good in bad weather..one never knows..

When one needs to untie the knot, and the sail is flapping around, it's hard to hold on to it...by having a long loop it dampens the flapping stoping the knot from shacking with the sail

It also helps when setting the wisker pole on a downwind, as the loop facilitates the manouver, and other more stuff...

Hope this tip from uncle Alex has helped you

have fun


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

... and a longish knot tends to slide around shrouds and stays with less hangups than a short chunky one..... 
right Unk?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Fast, yes,

Another advantage is on rolled genoas, the knots make it easier to reach the sheets, when and if needed.

Here Fred, a relatively short person (still), can reach them easily, as can be seen.










As can be seen bellow in this photo, both knots are inside the boat, even with the sail outside.










And I do that with the Spinnakers also.

But with the Spinnakers, I use a thin Dyneema extension line that reduces weight suspended on the sail, and allows me to remove the sheets easily and have both allways attached, but above all reduces friction on forward rotating gybes by less than half once the sheets pass the in front on the genoa tack.










hope this helps,

thanks


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Woah, woah, woah. I have a parrothead/larkshead/chucklehead/whatever "knot" in my Genny using a single sheet. Is that sheer lunacy? Am I begging for disaster? Will I sink?

Giu - the avatar. Sweet!! And you're complaining about mine? Yours is just freaky, man! Love it!


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Thanks for the tip Uncle A,

On our Thursday night races I seem to be tasked with poling out the genny and it always takes me three attempts (not so coordinated )

We always do less well on the downwind legs...

We shall try the longer bowlines next season.


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## justified (Jun 14, 2007)

Great ideas! can't wait till the white stuff disappears and I can try those out.

SPRING IS COMMING!!!!

Justified


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Just one comment about long knots on Spinnakers.. I assume this is in reference to an A sail. While few symmetrical spins are tied on, if they are then long knots are problematic when acting as a guy vis-a-vis the pole. The tack/clew should be as close to the pole as possible for stability.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Thanks Uncle Al

Uncle Al, the kiddies pal!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Geez, Giu. Is winter getting to you, too? I tie my bowlines long, too. Finally, I got one right! Wish Michigan had Portugese(sp?) weather.

Mark

wish you well


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Thanks for the tip Unk. Will try it out this summer.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

hmmmmmm......

Now I can see how that knot works with an RF system and a higher clew......what if you have hanked on no RF with a deck sweeper 155 or some such jib/genoa. One usually wants as short a knot as possible, so you can get the carr as close to the clew in light winds for sail shape. Farther back in heavy winds would not be an issue as you will usually want the carr back a bit.

Marty


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Giulietta said:


> tie the knot as long as possible,
> but the loop can't be too long, as it may prevent the sheet to get in the genoa track car sheave. The knot should be at least 3 inches before it reaches the sheave.


I think he covered that.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

ok, how does that saying go, "open mouth pickup foot insert"

I saw that, then look at his actual pic with the RF high clew, and went WTF!

the "loop can;t be too long so it will not go into the car sheave" went in one ear and out the other, or is that in the eyes, and out the ears!?!?!?!

So the loop will need to vary based on the clew hieght etc. OK,

Thank you.............

as I go off to bury my head in the sand!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Faster said:


> Just one comment about long knots on Spinnakers.. I assume this is in reference to an A sail. While few symmetrical spins are tied on, if they are then long knots are problematic when acting as a guy vis-a-vis the pole. The tack/clew should be as close to the pole as possible for stability.


Faster, that is 100% correct, only on assyms...

I did not mention it, because the photo I posted clearly shows the two guys tied to the extention, and thought it was straight forward.

Thanks


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## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> ok, how does that saying go, "open mouth pickup foot insert"
> 
> I saw that, then look at his actual pic with the RF high clew, and went WTF!
> 
> ...


This is why we ignore BLT. BLT, get back to the ignore threads where you belong!


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## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

Hey, Giu. Thanks for this thread!


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## soulfinger (Aug 21, 2008)

I'd also like to know: any disadvantage in using a single genoa sheet with a lark's head/cow hitch/whatever tied at the sail?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We ran a little 24' day racer for years with the RF jib's sheet as a single line, with the midpoint fed through the cringle and the two ends pulled through (whatever that's called! ).. worked great. That sort of setup tends to work best where the sheet is rarely removed/never from the sail.

This gets heavily loaded, of course, so the disadv. is its difficulty to remove in a hurry if that becomes necessary.


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

i only have one long sheet for my jib, i dont change lines on it and i have the knowledge that most new sailors will know which to grab when i say "that" one. if all the starboard sheets are red you cant really say grab the red one so color means nothing. i would also worry about a long bowline shaking loose on the loose line, it might never happen but once in bad weather is enough.


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## philsboat (Oct 16, 2006)

For years I have used a double length jib sheet.The center of the sheet is pushed through the clew and the two ends pulled through the bight then pulled tight.Doesn't catch on mast hardware when tacking and reduces the weight on the clew in light weather.I leave it on the sail when folding it .Requires re running the sheets for each sail change but it works for me.

Phil


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

soulfinger said:


> I'd also like to know: any disadvantage in using a single genoa sheet with a lark's head/cow hitch/whatever tied at the sail?


One downside, at least: the sheet chafes at the same points. By using two sheets and switching them end for end occassionally, the life of the sheet is extended.

Jack


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

The same is true for halyards, which can "harden" at the point they turn over the sheave or out of the mast (depending on your halyard set up).


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

scottyt said:


> i would also worry about a long bowline shaking loose on the loose line, it might never happen but once in bad weather is enough.


hey...nothing personal, but if your bowlines come lose with shaking, you may want to revise the technique you use. mine have nevr come lose.

But I see your point. thanks


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

jackdale said:


> One downside, at least: the sheet chafes at the same points. By using two sheets and switching them end for end occassionally, the life of the sheet is extended.
> 
> Jack


What's to stop you from cutting the line when the chafe necessitates it? You either cut it initially or cut it later. It can still be end for ended.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

you can also, off course get these babies here

SPLICING / SPLICING017.JPG


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

I also use a larkshead (center-of-line-bight through clew then ends through bight), because that's the way the PO did it. So far I'm not crazy about this system: it means sail changes take a lot longer as lines have to be pulled out of the fairleads and coiled, and then new lines rigged (since as mentioned above, each hanked-on jib gets its own sheet).

Moreover I find that in heavier air if a tack isn't timed right, it can snag on the forward shrouds. A bowline with a knot a ways back from the clew, like in Giu's setup, might not have this problem?

Finally I'm a bit concerned that keeping ever-tightening knots in the line is bad for its health. I'm thinking of switching to separate sheets, and if I do I'll definitely follow Giulietta's advice.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Maybe I am weird on this, been called weird before for other reasons........

For my two jibs, each has its own sheets, granted this costs a bit more, but when you know you will be changing jibs, in my case, 110 to 155 or 155 down to a 110, I setup the new jib's lines in the carrs, on the forestay etc, and drop the one, and hoist the other. 

I also admit, my 110 uses a different carr/track that is farther forward than the 155 or my cruising 140 that will be here in a month or so.........BUT even if they used the same carr, I have the carrs that two lines that can run thru, so you set up the one while still using the other, and again, jib changes are kept to minimum time. Even if it is just spouse and I vs when racing with 4-6 crew on board etc. 

This method works fine for the hanked on jibs I had, now with a foil, one jib can be up, the other in the lee hoisting, drop the filled on, and new fills almost instantaniously! But again, you need two sets of sheets to do this method, strictly cruisers may not want the extra expense of the lines.

This is my mad or madd or what ever method you want to call it for the use of jibs/geno's etc.

Marty


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

philsboat said:


> For years I have used a double length jib sheet.The center of the sheet is pushed through the clew and the two ends pulled through the bight then pulled tight.Doesn't catch on mast hardware when tacking and reduces the weight on the clew in light weather.I leave it on the sail when folding it .Requires re running the sheets for each sail change but it works for me.
> Phil


Sounds like the KISS Keep it simple principle to me. It is what I have done since day 1 with hank-ons and still do with the rollerfurler. My lines have not worn out yet and I have seperate blocks/tracks for jib vs genoa so I have to re-thread the sheets either way. They are not that expensive anyway.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> This method works fine for the hanked on jibs I had, now with a foil, one jib can be up, the other in the lee hoisting, drop the filled on, and new fills almost instantaniously! But again, you need two sets of sheets to do this method, strictly cruisers may not want the extra expense of the lines.
> 
> Marty


That method isn't mad, it's called a peal. And the fastest way to make a sail change. I'm not a fan of huge loops at the clew, a larks head seems to work the best and saves on weight pulling down the sail in light air.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

zz,

Thanks for the actual term ie "peal" for when raising and lowering foiled jibs. The "mad or madd" part of quote was just to say my way of doing things. Be it right or wrong, as in any of the methods mentioned, they all work, it is more of a which works best for me vs you vs _________ all are right and wrong and _____________

I will have to remember the term "peal" thos! thank you!
Marty


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Can you guys clarify what you mean by "foiled" jibs?

My jibs are hanked on but I like the idea of using separate tracks for small and big jib -- I've never really made good use of the inner tracks. I think I might need a new fairlead car?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

The foil is that track at the front of the sail, some tracks or foils have 2 slots so you can raise one sail with the other one still up..

Wait, I'll post a photo


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Here is a picture of the two tracks I have, one on the cabin top, the other on the deck behind, ie rear ward of the side shrouds.









Sailnet and it idiotic write word and it goes to sailnets store..........."http://www.harken.com/fur ling/Carbo_Racing_Foil.php" hopefully that will work. You will need to copy the info in the parenthesis, and delete the space between the "fur ling" and that will get you to the harken site! I hope.............

When Alex gets to reposting, I am sure what he will show/has will be different, but similar in how it works etc.

Marty


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> "http://www.harken.com/fur ling/Carbo_Racing_Foil.php" hopefully that will work.


It worked. And, O, brave new world that has such sailing gear in it. This little toy seems too good to be true?

Anyway thanks for the photo. I see a short rail on the cabintop and one on the side deck... do you have a third on the toe rail? I've got a similar setup, but always assumed the cabintop rail was for a tweaker.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

My upper track is for my 110 only, or possibly a smaller say .7-.90% head sail. The lower track is what came with the boat, sorta kinda........That track you see is actually new last dec with line control carrs. My old original track was about 6.5' or 2Meters in length, the new one is 8', so I now have a bit more forward for running/reaching use with the larger LP jibs. Including my 110 if I wanted to in windier conditions for a bit more off wind use vs the upper ones I can get to within 8* or their abouts vs 10-11* for the lower tracks.

A tweaker is usually a differnt setup, with a line and a metal loop, so that you can move the sheet inward a bit more than what is normal with the tracks.

I thought I had a better picture looking back with both tracks, but am not finding it. I need to setup this, but my sheets are able to run to the back of the cabin top for the 110, but need bigger winches to make this work. In the mean time, I find running the sheet line from the upper tracks to the lower then back to the 40's for the genoa work better than the 16's I currently have on the cabin top. Plan is to move the 16's inward, and put 24's or 32's on the outside for the 110 and smaller jib work and the bigger jibs use the lower tracks. My HS's consist of currently an original 135, a new carbon 155, and a dac/mylar 110 and a storm jib. the end of next month I have a replacement 140 for the 135, and a 130 reacher for the less than 7-8 knot wind days here in puget sound for summer racing to catch the zyphers my 155 will not.

Marty

on edit.....

The line you see just towards the mast from the upper track, what I am realizing you may see as a tweaker, is my AS tack line!

And a link to another forum thread with how I installed the new lower tracks, there is also a copy of it on another thread here at sailnet, but not sure where it is at.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Adam,

Another note, Schaefer or Lewmar, can not remember which, makes a foil similar to the harken one. I put on a harken, or my use application thought it was the best bang for the buck, along with most of the upgrades from the OEM Goiot stuff has been harken. Don't feel that the only option is the one I used.

marty


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

blt2ski said:


> ....
> I will have to remember the term "peal" thos! thank you!
> Marty


The term "peel" typically refers to hoisting one spinnaker before dousing the first one.. but the concept is, of course, the same. As to foil-set genoas we've always simply referred to sail changes e.g. "gotta change down to the #3", with hanked-on sail changes referred to as "bare headed" - since you cannot avoid a period of time without a headsail up or drawing.

Doing "peel" type genoa changes with a luff foil works really well, but calls for some forethought with regard to keeping the halyards organized so they don't cross during the sail changing procedure, know which "groove" you're in so that you can mostly plan to hoist a new sail in the windward groove while still sailing on the first genny. Then throw in a tack, sheet home the new sail, and now the to-be-dropped headsail is to windward and while dropping falls nicely onto the deck.

Of course all this is discussing a racing foil, not a furling foil since the swivel cannot drop if another sail is in the groove.... Headsail changes on furlers are bare headed ones too.... That said, the higher end furler have removable split drums allowing them to be converted to "racing foils" with the swivel simply left to sit at the bottom of the foil.

The main advantage of hanked on sails is that they are well-held on board by the hanks. Luff tape sails are only held by the three corners once down - takes more manpower to keep large parts of these sails from slipping overboard if mishandled. A section of a genny falling overboard and filling in the water can easily tear a stanchion out (or at least bend it)

Sorry for the lecture.. most of you don't need it, but some may find it new to them and helpful!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

With all of Mr Fasters lecture.........have we gotten off topic, or have we gotten off topic!.......... at least it is still sailing oriented?!?!?!?!?!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

blt2ski said:


> With ..Faster's lecture.........have we gotten off topic, or have we gotten off topic!.......... at least it is still sailing oriented?!?!?!?!?!


Hey.. the first word in the thread title is genoa......


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## outthere09 (Jan 21, 2009)

*Thank You!*

You guys are the best...that is a great tip and makes so much sense.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Faster,

so true, so we are not off topic!

good, was afraid alex might jump in here and give us a group photoshop for screwing up his thread!:

Marty


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