# Salty Boat any ideas



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Some boats just stir something in us that make us love them. I love the salty folk boat look. I have picked out a few types to illustrate what I am looking for and am hoping that with a little of everyones expertise we could expand this list. 
Cape Dory 25
Greenwich 24
Bristol 24, 25, 26, 27

Okay here are important specs. 
10K 2-3K refit. Prefer less. 
4-9K displacement handling and rowability
Less then 30 for cost, handling, rowability, and did I say cost including long term costs
I love the outboard well and prefer an outboard. Not hanging off the back. 
Seakindly for their size. 

Current planned use is crusing Great Lakes
Future plans will include cruising east coast and remotly possible the caribean. I know it is small. I have lived months out of a Kayak and years in a tent I am sure I can do it in a 25 foot sailboat. Only me with occasional guest that understand how small it is. 

I have looked at Bayfield 25 but from what I can tell, is that in a blow it would be a rough ride. Not much ballast and not much of a keel.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

A little bit above your price range, but the Pacific Seacraft 25 might be worth a look. It has an inboard diesel, which I would consider a big plus. You might be able to negotiate a better deal or wait for one to come along:

PSC 25 Example


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

The boats you've mentioned look pretty heavy to row. If you like "folk" type boats, perhaps a Folkboat would work. The low freeboard aft and (relatively) light weight would make rowing easier. Don't know about an outboard well.
Try this link for more information: sfbayfolkboats.org/


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

paulk said:


> The boats you've mentioned look pretty heavy to row. If you like "folk" type boats, perhaps a Folkboat would work. The low freeboard aft and (relatively) light weight would make rowing easier. Don't know about an outboard well.
> Try this link for more information: sfbayfolkboats.org/


Good suggestion Paul!

The 26' Folkboats (by Marieholm) do have outboard wells, but some owners report that they are a bit problematic under certain conditions. However, the Folkboat is so slippery that you'd hardly ever need the outboard. They are great sailing boats, in both light and heavy air.

Notoriously wet boats, though. Wet from bow spray, that is.

If you or anyone else is interested in the Folkboat, I know of a nice example that is unofficially for sale.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

I love the PSC 25 and if I found one at the right price and with the right survey for sure. 

Everyone should check out the photos on sfbayfolkboasts.org/ very beatiful girls. Maybe a little smaller then I am looking for. The rowability is not of high importnace. I have a lot of reason for the oars but speed is not one. I would mostly use them for short duration and manuaver ability and the rythmic methodical meditation paddling and rowing offer. 

Thanks for the great info. Rat.


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## sander06 (Sep 18, 2003)

Check out Atom Voyages | Voyaging Around the World on the Sailboat Atom with James and Mei. He sails in a little Pearson all over the place and he has a list of small boats right up your alley. A little 25-footer is plenty big enough for doing the kind of cruising you're talking about. With all due respect to PSC, they're very over-built for just messing about in the Carib or for coastal sailing. I'd like to own one, but there are many other boats that would fill the bill for a lot less $$$. Good luck, Mate.

Finding the right boat is like finding a wife. It takes a while and sometimes more than one try!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just remember, there are a quite a few folkboat variants out there, like the Contessa 26. 

Waterrat-

I'd highly recommend you take a look at James Baldwin's recently published list of pocket cruisers. *LINK*


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Great info. I have looked at James Baldwins site but it has been awhile and had kind of forgot about it. I feel a conection with Baldwin because he is or was a Michigander. There are some great recomendations on his site. He posted the Bayfield 25 for circling the blue. I realize there are way more variables then the boat but I feel if it is really blowing that boat would be a very rough ride. Am I way off. I have never sailed one but with that beam, shallow keel, and low ballest it just seems like it would not be a great sailor except for maybe 15-20 Knots of wind. That is only my 2cents and I am not in the know. I am going to continue looking through Baldwins list of boats. 

Saildog you are definetly correct on the Contessa 26. I would consider one if it fell in the correct range and checked out with a good survey. What other boats are folk boat types? Thanks for all the great info. Rat


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Southern Cross 28 would seem to fit your style.


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## sander06 (Sep 18, 2003)

With all due respect, I've always thought it rather pretentious to have wheel-steering on a 28-foot boat as shown on the first Southern Cross image. Good boat, however, IMHO.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Albin Vega 27 would be a good choice, as would be the CS27


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Most SC28s are tiller steered... that was probably modified by the owner, since I don't believe they offered wheel steering from the factory.


sander06 said:


> With all due respect, I've always thought it rather pretentious to have wheel-steering on a 28-foot boat as shown on the first Southern Cross image. Good boat, however, IMHO.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Correct on the wheel guys...most unusual even in the 31 SC's!


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

The SC are beatiful boats. Not finding many in my price range but I will keep a look out. I find it hard looking for boats. Based on my price range it really increases the price when if I drive/fly across country looking for a boat. That money could add up really fast and I think would be better spent on a refit. The CS 27 looks nice but maybe not as salty as some but she looks faster then most I am looking at. Not that I care too much about speed but who dosn't like a little speed. 

I agree boat less then 30 just don't look right with a wheel.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

If the SC 28 is one to your liking, another similar altho probably pricer than your budget, is the Westsail 28. Just to throw another boat out there. 

marty


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd also recommend the Elizabethan series of boats...


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

These are all great suggestions and if I find any in my region within my price range I will definitely check them out. I realize that most boats of this size have inboards and I definitely feel for safety an inboard is hands down better then an outboard. The problem is that I see the engine as one of the biggest things that can or will go wrong that will cost me the bucks and I feel less capable of doing the work my self. I do feel a little regular preventative maintenance can save me a lot of the big costs when it come to engines but would rather not. I could just take it out which would add to the storage and carrying capacity but I don't want an engine hanging off the back for more reason then purely aesthetics. 

I did find and old 68 Ericson 30 that is far from exactly what I am looking for with its fin keel but looks like a reasonable boat for the price and could be very capable with a little refit and beefing up. If I did end up hoping islands in the Caribbean I feel with a conservative itinerary a person would rarely need to be more then 150 mile to the next port. That seems like plenty of weather window to make those crossing in almost anything as long as you are smart, and mentally prepared for the worse. What are people thoughts on the old Ericson 30? I found a blog in California of some guy with the same year and he seems to love it. I never feel like I can trust any owners because we all think our boat is the best. 

Well I will stop babbling. Thanks for all the ideas. I am open to any ideas on small reasonably priced capable boats. With my budget I can’t be too picky but I love the salty look. The Westsail 28 mentions are one of my favorites. If time and money were not as much of an issue and I was sailing the world the Westsail 32 would be close to the top of my list.


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## AlpineSailor (Nov 3, 2006)

A Tartan 27 might fit the bill.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

sander06 said:


> With all due respect, I've always thought it rather pretentious to have wheel-steering on a 28-foot boat


Yikes, that means the wheel on my 23 footer makes me 77% more pretentious. or less pretentious, depending on how you work the size ratio.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

If a tiller is a must, how about a halman or a nordica? trailerable, relatively cheap, and built in Ontario so there are a few still sailing the Great Lakes.
Nordica Boats - The Traditional Cruising Sailboats


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## AlpineSailor (Nov 3, 2006)

There is a Contessa 26 on Ebay right now. Located in RI, looks pretty nice and probably can be bought in your budget too, surveyed first of course.


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

*my boat is on your list*

I had a lot of the same criteria for a boat as you have and ended up buying an old 1968 Bristol 27. When I was looking there were several for sale but now I hardly ever see them offered. It is a great boat and about as affordable as a full keel can get. My biggest expense is the winter haul-out/storage/re-launch each year. Whenever a repair or replacement or modification presents itself it is no big deal because the original purchase price was so kind.

It also has an outboard motor in a well which I really like, most of the time. I love the extra storage it gives me down below, which I use to stowe extra sails, my cooler, a lot of the plumbing access and, most importantly, the liquor! Sometimes I wish I could just lean over and push the button to motor but in general having an outboard is great and has cost me almost no money to keep in working condition. I keep mine up to keep water out of the lazarette and to eliminate the possibility of snagging a lobster pot.

Oars would be great and some day I'm gonna make a couple when I figure out how to store them on the boat. I have decided against a sculling oar because I put a windvane on the stern last summer. I think the B27 will row okay and will be a nice back-up if the motor does die or I just need a little boost to get past a rock and don't feel like putting the motor down.

I, too, have spent a lot of time in kayaks and living in tents and a boat, even a small B27, is a BIG improvement. It's like camping but you can stand up, cook, move around, go to the bathroom and sail your home all around.

I love the looks of older boats and the Bristols are made well, have the cool older look and are very seaworthy with the right improvements. There are even reports of B27's doing circumnavigations.

Good luck with your search.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Do you know who built your Bristol? I think the DeKleers in B.C. built a few.


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

erps said:


> Do you know who built your Bristol? I think the DeKleers in B.C. built a few.


It was built right in Bristol, Rhode Island.


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## soulfinger (Aug 21, 2008)

I find it really pretentious to tell others what type of steering systems are pretentious on their boats.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

While reading a "Cruising World" last night, I noticed Morris has an older 30' or there about double ended boat, along with a 26-28'ish foot boat that would be excellent boats for OP's possible use. Granted on the upper end of the price range, but still a nice boat.

Now that I am typing this, I might have the wrong price range and post......but..........oh well.

Marty


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)




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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Absolutely BEAUTIFUL boat Alex. I want at least three! maybe four or five. Can you deliver next week?

Marty


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Marty-

Be careful what you wish for... he'll be sending you the bill for them too...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

You mean we would have to pay him to get one of these contraptions?!?!?!?!?! man, what is this world coming to!?!?!?!?

Thought folks were giving away these slower than a dead slug going backwards old shoe boats!

Now that I have that all wrong......what is a pour soul like me to do?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Giulietta said:


>


and that's another thing, Stay away from Portuguese boats.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

I knew the smell test worked to know about fuel, and head problems but who would have know it could protect you from those Portuguese boats.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Well I have been gone for a couple of days but I have made some possible advances in my quest for a baot. You all have offered some good suggestions and I have my eyes peeled and feelers out for baots in the Great Lake area. I love all the Bristols and the 27 would be great. I have not had luck finding one in Michigan. I email a women about a Helmen but it was sold. Very cool boats but that would probably be a little small for me but still tempting. I meant a person locally who owns a Bayfield 25 and gave me a lead on a possible deal on a boat stored inside for the last five years. We will see what happens. I also found a Tartan 30 that I am going to try to go look at. 1970 but looks in pretty good condition. I just recieved this in an email about it. Never hurts to look at a nice old boat. 

Standing rigging in good order - replaced one stay last year, rest in good shape. Running rigging in good to average condition. Halyards good+, sheets good to fair.

Seacocks are old style gate valves. The raw water intake is clogged with zebras. Depending on what they did, I was planning to replace anyway with a ball valve.

Issues are: (i) aforementioned valve; (ii) re-bed port stanchion; (iii) re-bed starboard side window; (iv) re-bed port side lower chainplate fitting. If I were to keep the boat, I would likely re-bed all the deck hardware - deck is in good condition but I am not sure about the fittings and given the above issues, believe it is time to do a systematic, complete job.

Bottom in good shape - VC 17 renewed last year.

Hull topsides looks pretty good standing 10 feet away. Closer you get the more it shows that it was not done professionally. Nice gold and dark blue scheme.

Mainsail good. Genoa fair. Spinnaker crispy. Staysail good+.

On my list of to do things: (i) get an extrusion for the Profurl so as to drop the drum down around 20", former owner(s) must have been cruisers and did not want to foul the genoa at the pulpit but I feel there is too much sail area lost with that arrangement; (ii) some modest A-4 upgrades, such as oil filter and other goodies from Indigo. Not critical, just nice round outs. Assuming the forestay is so adjusted, I would also shop for a used 155% with the greater canvas area.

Clean boat for its age. Nice on all points of sail above 5 kts. Shows the S&S heritage.

This all seems like doable things. I pretty much expect to do all of this to any boat but witht the Tartan I would probably add a Bridge deck. I am skeptical of standing rigging, and worried about deck core moistue. It seems like a good deal. Bigger then I want but very capable. She is priced right and I am hoping it is Michigan economy and not the boat. If all else fails I hear I can get Portuguese Loafer 9 for cheap.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Check out the Aquarius Pilot Cutter. There was one recently for sale in Wisconsin that I thought about looking at earlier this summer. It's a salty design that reminds me of the PSC Flicka/Dana. If I remember correctly, she was listed at only $10k with an outboard.

A few others you might consider that I've found available in the Great Lakes from time to time:

Kenner Privateer
Liberty 28
Mariner 28
Com Pac 27
Vancouver 27


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The Tartan 30 is a lovely boat, for a leadmine.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

You're coming up against your price cap with a lot of these suggestions. If "salty" wasn't a hard and fast requirement, I'd suggest you look at something like the Beneteau First 235 or First 24.

They are fairly similar boats. The 235 puts the outboard on bracket at the transom, whereas the 24 has an outboard well at the aft end of the cockpit. The 235 has a clever arrangement where the head also doubles as the nav station, with a fold up/down chart table. Not sure if the 24 incorporates that.

I've seen 235s for under US$10K. The 24 is a bit pricier.

The advantage of these boats is that they are a lot newer than many of the others boats we've suggested so far, and likely won't need so much refit time and $$. They also tend to be comparatively good sailers.

There do not seem to be many 235s on the market at the moment. But they turn up regularly. Here's a 24:

Beneteau First 24


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Kawalt I will take a look at all you have listed. Thanks for the info. All is helpful. 

John I don't feel I can make anything besides capability of the vessel as a requirement on my budget. I will look at the Beneteau Firsts. I love the salty boats and I would love a Bristol 27 but as long as I love the boat I get and she is capable and safe for my indented cruising I am relatively open. I like the idea of newer for less refit work and costs and just assumed on my budget that was my only choice. 

I have heard the figure of 20-30% of purchase price for a refit. how remotely accurate is this estimate when talking about a 30-35 year old boat? Just asking this question I think I know the answer. It all depends on the survey, maintenance and use. Too many variables. 

Saildog speaking of the lead mine. I just read about Michel Bigoin using spent Uranium 238 as keel ballast on 236 foot Club Med. This was for single handed racing. It only carried a little over 2000 sf of sail area. Can you imagine sailing something like that?


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## merc2dogs (Jun 5, 2004)

There have been a few tritons for sale in the northwest Michigan area, also an ariel or two.

Not sure if they meet your 'salty' requirement or not but they're both good solid boats.

Ken.


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