# Ferro-cement. yay or Nay?



## BlowinSouth (Nov 10, 2007)

As most of you know I'm in the process of shopping for a boat and this one just came on the market and it is a design that I love at a price that is unbeleivelable but it's made out of ferro-cement.

Just when I think I've decided on one...I find another one that I want... arghhh!

I have absolutely zero experience with ferro boats except for one that was moored at my last marina. It was faired smooth and seemed VERY solid and unless the owner told me I never would have known it was cement, it seemed like fiberglass.

My concern is their collision resistance. Hitting something mid-ocean has always been one of my greatest fears of passage making and it seems to me that a ferro-cement boat mayt have a tendancy to crack and crumble like a cinder block if struck hard. Am I off base here or is ferro-cement a decent building material?

BTW: it's 32' Tahiti Cutter

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?&units=Feet&currency=USD&ro=6&r=1812194&rs=yachtworld.com&rt=Cruiser&boat_id=1812194&checked_boats=1812194&toPrice=15000&Ntk=boatsEN&type=%28Sail%29&hmid=0&sm=3&enid=0&cit=true&toLength=45&currencyid=100&luom=126&boatsAddedSelected=-1&fromLength=28&No=260&ftid=0&slim=quick&Ns=PAll_sortPrice%7C1&rid=100&rid=101&rid=104&rid=105&rid=106&rid=107&rid=108&rid=112&rid=114&rid=115&rid=125


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## GySgt (Jun 11, 2007)

Construction aside, I would never buy a boat where they would not let me do a survey on it.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I think the material's durability is dependent on the skill of the builder. If the cement was mixed properly and there are no voids and the reinforcing steel was properly seated and sealed so it doesn't corrode....etc. In other words, its no different than any other material when it comes to quality. Ferro seems to have gotten a bad rap because of the many backyard builders who didn't do a good job back in the day. Surveyors can look at a wooden boat and find rot, and they have been very clever in discovering ways to find hidden flaws in fiberglass boats (moisture meters, infrared imaging); maybe they have similar tricks for ferro boats.

I hear that one of the biggest problems for the prospective ferro boat owner is obtaining insurance. Make sure you nail that down before you get too invested in this boat.


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## Morgan3820 (Dec 21, 2006)

Nay. I think that your concerns are legitamate. Besides you will have to give it away. I knew a guy that built a boat out of ferrocement. Put $400K into it, three years later he dumped it for $150K


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Just saw the "no survey" restriction in the Yachworld ad. That ought to set some alarm bells off in your head. Ask yourself, what possible reason could this seller have for prohibiting a survey? Sorry to burst your boatstruck bubble, but the only reason is that he is afraid the surveyor will find something that he doesn't want you know about. Unless you have a need for a 20,000lb. doorstop, I would pass on this bargain.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The no survey/no seatrial is a great big STOP sign to me too. What are they hiding?

That aside, this is going to be a slow boat to wherever, and the interior really needs a rework to be practical. The problem with most ferro boats were the builders, there was a craze for a while when people thought they could build a 40' boat for a couple of grand, which was the cost of the hull actually, and didn't realize the real cost of finishing a boat regardless of the build material. As a result there were lots of abandoned projects left for the landfill eventually.

This boat looks alright in the pics, but there are too many red flags IMO.

A 32 foot boat for $9k.... you usually get what you pay for.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

All the different tile I saw in the pictures makes me think she was redone with scraps. It would be interesting to take a look at her, but take a real good look at her. It could be fun to have a peek. Don't get your hopes up though.


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## wiseleyb (Feb 11, 2007)

Heretic-says: I kind of like the interior. Hanking a jib on that bow spirit, even in calm conditions, would be pretty interesting. But - at $9K - buy it, even if it's a complete disaster area, sell off seats on the boat-to-be-sunk to divers... never met one that didn't want to go down with the boat  I've also always wanted to put an old worn out sailboat in a trailer park slot.

(please note: i'm a half wit no ferro-cement knowledge but I'm in for $300 if you buy it and decide to sink it)


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Also agreeing with the previous posters, but I would add that I think the lava lamp is very cool. Find out if it comes with the boat!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

what the heck, for 9k and a blue water boat. it seems to float. if you like it, go with it. you could probably insure it for liability only. looks like a nice design. just remember, someone will buy it. who's to say if it'll be a headache or not. all boats are headaches in one way or another. i see people lose more than that playing one hand of blackjack. it's definitely "Popeye" looking. good luck whatever you choose.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

BS,

First, I will not pretend to be a FC expert. With that on the table:

I would stick with a more traditional material... even considering wood over cement. I agree with the bad reputations they have received. I have heard concerns about getting a surveyor that knows how to survey them. I have heard (as was mentioned before) concerns about insurance. I have heard that some are truly junk.

I HAVE ALSO HEARD... that there are some great deals to be had on them and a good one is a really good one. But with no survey (which seems unlikely anyways) I think your money would be better invested in fiberglass. You will put a lot of capital and time into a boat. Best to get one you can get rid of should you wish.

Just my opinions... and a LOT of hear-say  I have collected on them over the years.

- CD


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Nay. Sometimes even a free boat costs too much. And what's with that line "needs someone to finish." Just how much is not done? Plus, some of the interior work looks like crap to me. Save your money on this one and keep lookoking. It's a real soft market out there.


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## BlowinSouth (Nov 10, 2007)

OK... no one has said anything that I haven't already thought of myself. Yes the 'no sea trial, no survey' thing was a huge red flag to me too but when you offer a 32' bluewater boat for 9k I kind of understand why they say that. To keep the tire kickers off the dock.

My question and concern was not as much about this boat specifically but about Ferrocement construction in general. 

What is ferro cement anyway? Does it crack and/or crumble on impact with a submerged object? Or running aground?

And yes I know you have to give them away... this guy is giving his away. 9k for a 32' boat? And I could probably steal it for 7k Maybe (or there abouts). Then I sail it for a few years and sell it for a steal too. I'm not trying to flip it for a buck just have a decent boat to take me around the oceans for a couple years.

Still... yay or nay?


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## BlowinSouth (Nov 10, 2007)

Well said CD, I'll probably steer clear of this one... but it is very tempting!



Cruisingdad said:


> BS,
> 
> First, I will not pretend to be a FC expert. With that on the table:
> 
> ...


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## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

> Full keel* skag* hung rudder


Bit of a spelling error. In Australian parlance a Skag is pretty much what a Ho is in the US... I suppose it seems reasonable that one could hold her breath long enough to hang on to the rudder for you as you sail.



Sorry.

*I would stay away from ferro boats in 99.9% of cases. There are a very VERY few european boat builders that seriously explored and refined the use of ferro cement for yachts. Their products are not shoddy and not cheap either. For a boat that tells you it was built in some mexican yard with variable humidities and doubtful quality control....No thanks. Not even if it were given to me for free.*

*Sasha*


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## wescarroll (Jan 9, 2005)

*Make a low ball offer*

Try a low ball offer. Pick a price you wouldn't care if it were junk and offer that. He can't be getting too many offers, and it is a rather pretty boat in the pictures. Normally I would say stay away from ferro-cement, but if you can get it at the right price, who knows?


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

It might be suitable for blue water if that's the color of the pool you're going to park it in. $9.000 for what could be a three-room apartment isn't a bad deal, but you'd want to make sure it was well insulated to keep the A/C costs down, and you'd want to check the zoning laws about ancillary apartments before you hired a crane to move it. Demolition on the thing is probably a hefty sum (dumps charge by the ton...) and the work to take it apart would add to that, so maybe a few thou just to dump it. They don't want to waste time on it, so they make a take it of leave it deal. This is not your dream boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If you find a well-made Ferro-cement boat, then you have found a very good vessel. They are out there and they are very strong, durable craft. As they age they get stronger, not weaker.

A while ago - in the 70's - there was a big ferro-cement craze, as people found out that it was possible to build a hull for very few dollars. An awful lot very bad boats were started, some were finished, and some of those were launched and are still sailing. They are basically mortar over a steel mesh frame. In a lot of cases the inner steel has deteriorated. In other cases the plastering compound was not mixed properly and bonds are weak. Some other boats wre not cured at the correct temperature, or for long enough beore being painted and sealed.

If you are seriously considering a Ferro boat, then you need to do some exploring and research. This is a good starting point :
http://www.ferrocement.org/


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Umm... the "no survey/no sea trial" part of the ad is a huge warning flag. Ferrocement boats, properly constructed, can be very good boats. Unfortunately, many ferrocement boats weren't made in anything close to the proper way, and the insurance industry and financing industry have strong reservations about giving insurance coverage or financing on them for those reasons. 

Ferrocement was a fairly low-cost way to make a very sturdy boat. Many used pipe instead of solid rod for parts of the framing, and that is a serious problem, since the pipe would allow condensation to collect inside it, and then corrode from the inside out... weakening the frame and construction of the ferrocement boat from deep inside, where it would be very difficult to detect. 

The idea of ferrocement construction was to bind many (eight or more usually) layers of steel mesh together very tightly. Then cement was forced into the mesh and over the mesh to form the hull. If the mesh was not bound tightly enough together or the cement not packed in properly, you would get either areas of fairly thick cement layup or voids in the cement layup—either of which would seriously weaken it. In theory, the construction was much like that of fiberglass boats... you had the steel mesh acting as the fibers, and the cement acting as the resin, and like a fiberglass boat, the strongest layups had the highest concentration of mesh and relatively low concentrations of "resin". 

Another area where the construction techniques often fell short was in the "curing" phase of the ferrocement boat. The hull, once plastered with cement, needed to be kept wet, to allow the cement to harden with maximum strength. If they failed to do this... it would visually appear the same, but the strength of the hull would be vastly lower that it could have been. On one boat I know of the hull had a few spots that were apparently "missed" it the wetting out process and that is where large cracks developed in the boat. 

I've seen some really beautifully constructed ferrocement boats... which were hard to tell as ferrocement boats. These are pretty far and few between. One of the sailing magazines had a good article recently on ferro-cement construction which you might want to read. If I can find the article, I'll post the name and date of the magazine.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

There have been some quite wonderful ferro boats. One even pulled off line honours in the Sydney - Hobart some years back. If professionally built in a yard that knows what they are doing, OK, but semi professional or home built ? Not in a million years. The inherent problem with ferro is that the strength is in the steel not the ferro and the ferro is easily pierced. It's already been noted that unless fully professionally built they are impossible to insure but that is surely a major negative also. 

As for no survey, you have got to be kidding. It's amazing what you can hide with a nice new coat of paint, at least until it starts coming off, in sheets. I can understand at that price the owner not wanting to naff around with test sails but no survey ? No way. Ten grand is still ten grand. Can you afford to piss that up aganst the wall ? Worth thousands more ? Only if someone else thinks so. 

Ye olde Wombate just keeps remembering "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is". 

Oh and by the way, Tahiti's sail like your average footpath so it's probably apt that the thing is concrete. That's more the reason they don't want you to have a test sail plus of course you'd find out just how slowly a 12hp motor will propel a great big lump of rock. Get yourself a barge pole and keep your distance.

Oh yes, and as for "sail it for a few years" that's after spending a few years rebuilding the interior. Of course a queen size bed is a most important attribute, not to mention the flat screen TV, front opening fridge and the fake leopard skin bed covers. Sorry but the only thing a Tahiti is good for is crossing oceans but this one does not have the feel of an ocean goer. More a somewhat squalid houseboat than anything else.


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

*Insurance*

I would find out about insuring it. Most yards won't let you keep it on a mooring field without coverage. If you can get insurance, low ball, offer 2-3 thousand [since it can't be surveyed?] and you 'might' be getting a good deal.
I fear 'down the road headache' though. The old 'you get what you pay for' saying carries a lot of weight...


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

No survey, No way!

I once watched an bargain ferro-cement boat break in half. The new owner had just taken delivery of the boat and was having it hauled to take care of a few minor issues. The boat came up in the slings a crack was heard, the boat folded fore and aft and that was the end of the bargain.


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## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

If they didn't use the proper reinforcement mesh or they didn't properly protect this reinforcement from corrosion, then the ferro-cement will have major structural issues which could be catastrophic and deadly. The hull could be brittle and any flex or impact could crack it open like an eggshell.....not to be negative or anything like that


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## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

And...... the only way to find these things out is to get a survey and look for the tell-tale rust weeping thru cracks in the cement, but then again, all that tile on the inside will be covering that up and the new topside paint on the outside will mask any exterior signs.....stay away from this one!!!!


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I never have been able to "get" the logic. 
Would you spend 9k on a car they wouldn't let you test drive? 
Would you spend 9k on a car that they wouldn't let your mechanic raise the hood? 

And to think, I just sold that beachfront condo in nebraska. I wouldn't give people the address, or let them look at the property.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

BlowinSouth said:


> Yes the 'no sea trial, no survey' thing was a huge red flag to me too but when you offer a 32' bluewater boat for 9k I kind of understand why they say that. To keep the tire kickers off the dock.


 Anyone who is so interested in a boat that he is willing to pay several hundred dollars to have it professionally surveyed is not a "tire kicker." He's a likely buyer. When the seller prohibits surveys, he's not eliminating tire kickers...he's eliminating potential buyers. Why would he do that? The only apparent reason is that, as others have said, he knows something about the boat that he hopes you won't find out until after you buy it.

The fact that the listing says "no surveys" doesn't necessarily mean that you can't have it surveyed before you buy it. That's open to negotiation. If you look at it, you can make an offer that is contingent on the results of a survey by your surveyor. If they still refuse, then there's no way I'd buy the boat. No honest seller in his right mind would reject a contract from a ready, willing and able buyer on a ferrocement boat, just because the buyer insists on a survey.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

First of all, the Tahiti Ketches were dismal boats in their original design. While they represented cheap way to go cruising using 1920's design concepts, They were anything but good offshore cruisers by any objective standard. Then with the added hull weight and reduced ballast of a ferro version it can only make them worse. 
 As for Fewrrocement you might want to look at the rather long and very detailed discussion on ferrocement boats over at the Cruisers Forum.com. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397&highlight=Ferrocement
Its a good thread with people weighing in on both sides, including a number of people who actually own ferrocement boats. My opening comments were as follows:

My take on ferro-cement is that it is, in fact, pound for pound the weakest of all of the commonly used boat building materials. Ferro-cement operates by the same principle as fiberglass, in other words, a high tensile strength reinforcing held by a high compressive strength, low tensile strength cement. The cement in ferro-cement ideally is a high strength Portland cement with a very fine sand aggregate. The cement in fiberglass is polyester, vinylester or epoxy resin. The tensile reinforcing material in ferrocement is steel (sometimes with glass fiber added), and in fiberglass it is glass fibers in a variety of forms, kevlar, carbon and all kinds of new variations on these materials. 

Ferro-cement's weight comes from a number of sources. First of all, no matter how small the boat, there is a practical limit to how thin ferro-cement can be. Ferro-cement needs to have a minimum thickness in order to have sufficient depth of material to protect the reinforcement from moisture. Because of this boats below 40 to 45 feet are generally considered too small to use ferro-cement efficiently. (i.e. their hulls, and deck structures weigh more than they would in some other material.) 

 The implication of the weight issue is not readily obvious. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Weight in and of itself does nothing good for a boat. It does not make it stronger, or more comfortable or more stabile. Weight does increase the stress on the various parts of a boat. It increases the size of a sail plan required to achieve a particular speed. It increases drag and typically means that for a given draft a boat will have a less efficient keel (i.e trading off greater drag for the same amount of leeway.) 

 In order to carry more sail area the heavier boat with equal or less ballast stability needs greater form stability, which comes at the price or a choppier motion and greater drag, or greater ballast or deeper ballast which adds more weight and drag and perhaps depth. 

 To keep the weight down, many ferro-cement cement boats have reduced ballast ratios when compared to other construction techniques. This means that they need more sail area because of their weight but they can't carry more sail area because of reduced ballast ratios, at least not without using lower aspect rigs which are by their very nature much less efficient on almost all points of sail. 

 This is further complicated by the fact a higher proportion of the weight in a ferro-cement boat is carried in the in the topsides (and sometimes decks). This means a high center of gravity which has a variety of implications; reduced stability, wider roll angles, smaller angles of ultimate stability, and more prone to excitation rolling (which may be slightly offset by the greater inertial moments due to weight).

This added hull and deck weight, larger sail plan, and perhaps greater ballast requirement to carry the sail plan make these boats a less than ideal choice for distance voyaging for a variety of reasons. Any given design can only safely carry so much weight before it begins losing safety, stability and sailing ability. If excess weight weight is required for the hull, deck, rig and ballasting, there is less weight available to carry food, stores and gear. For a given payload, a bigger more capacious boat is required. And since displacement is a major component in determinging the amount of anticipated maintenance costs (affecting sails and deck hardware size, ground tackle and dock lines, engine size and fuel consumption, down to even simple things like the amount of bottom paint required), these boats that are become expensive to maintain as well. 

 Then there is maintenance costs. In a study performed some years back looking at the life costs of various materials, ferro-cement-cement came out as the highest maintenance cost material (if I remember worst to best was ferro-cement, steel, conventional wood, aluminum, fiberglass, cold molded wood) Of course as with any generalized study there will be case by case exceptions and given the comparatively small sampling of non-FRP boats the results could easily been skewed by a few bad apples. 

 Other problems with ferro-cement are the difficulty of connecting things to it, and prevention of rot in wood in contact with ferro-cement. The difficulty in bolting to ferro-cement is that ferro-cement hates localized loadings. It's hard to glue things to ferro-cement. secondary bonds are greatly greatly weaker than primary bonds. 

 Then there is the market value thing. ferro-cement does have a reputation in the States that does not match the comparatively high regard that it is held in other countries. Some of this is just plain unfair prejudice but some of this comes from real shortcomings in the materials as noted above. A well-built ferro-cement boat can be a reasonably good cruising boat. But the image of the crudely finished 'hippie' built cement and rust buckets still clouds the perception of ferro-cement for many North Americans. 

The other problem is telling whether the boat that you are looking at is a good boat. It is very hard with non- destructive survey techniques to tell whether the original work was done well and is in good condition. While sounding will reveal any major separations in the cement to reinforcing bond, it does little to determine the affects of fatigue, poor curing practices or cold joints. With Ferro-cement it is particularly important to maintain the ferro-cement parts in good condtion. That can be very significant. People who buy boats because they are priced well below the market, often are overly frugal or just plain do not have the money that it takes to properly maintain a boat. An otherwise good Ferro-cement boat left to poor maintenance and miss-handling can quickly become a poster child for why North American's don't trust Ferro-cement

 To me the real cost of owning a boat is the difference between what you paid for the boat, the cost of upgrades and maintenance and the price that you can get when you sell the boat. The problem with a lot of low value boats is that the sales price is always limited no matter how much you put into the boat. This too works against ferro cement boats.

 I guess my conclusion is if you are strictly looking for an initial up front cost boat and don't mind putting some sweat equity in, and you can look past the sailing shortcomings, and you actually find one that was well built and well maintained, a ferro-cement boat might work out fine for you. For most of us, they do not. 

 Respectfully 

Jeff


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Very informative post, thanks Jeff.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

In fewer words...NO

ehehehehehehehe

And I am right...less weight is better..Go Giu!!!!!Go!!!!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Bottom line:

You have concerns now, before you buy it. When you are out in a blow, you need a boat you feel good about. When you are at the marina, you need a boat you are comfortable in. When you are West Marine, you need a boat you know isn't a giant hole in the water (that you might actually get SOME of your money back on).

So, is this that boat? *You * have to answer that. The little nags right now turn into big nags after you are many thousands into the tub. They turn into HUGE nags when you are in a gale/storm. THe are ENORMOUS nags when you list it again with a broker.

What is your sailing experience? I have to ask why get this type of boat anyways. What is wrong with an old Catalina 30? They were well made for their time and still coveted by MANY owners. At least you could get your money back and have a nice support group of other owners. The C30 is not the only boat I would reccomend... it is jus the first to come to mind.

Take care. Whatever choice you make, it will be the right choice.

- CD


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

Looks like you'd better HURRY!!!!!!!



> NO LOOKIE LOU'S, NO DREAMERS, NO TRADES, CASH, CASH OR CASH!!! _*EITHER WAY SHE WON'T LAST THE WEEK*_.


I wouldn't buy a BICYCLE based on those terms!

Add in the additional scrutiny a Ferro-Cement boat deserves under the _best_ sale conditions.............


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

So basically what CD is saying is shoot yourself in the leg or in the arm....

A Catalina??? gee, he's better off with a leaky ferro boat!!!

(to whomever reads this...if you don't understand I am joking with CD, you're an idiot)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

_"Concrete belongs only under ones tires"_

(Old Japanese proverb, circa 1625)..............


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

How about twice as nice.. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Benf...ryZ63731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Seriously though..this would be money more well spent I think...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1965...ryZ63731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

In other words ...... Go ahead, we think you should buy it ..... ;-}


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I wouldn't pay more that what I could get salvage value for the electronics and hardware AFTER paying the fines,levies, and cost of removing the hulk from the bottom That is, very very expensive.

I've had two instances where I gave more than a passing glance at a ferro boat. One was an unfinished hull my dad wanted to buy when I was very young.
The other was a 50' ketch In the yard in Hawaii. The owner had just peeled off a fiberglass layer someone thought was a good idea. The entire hull had been encased in a vapor tight (but not waterproof) steam cooker in the tropical heat. The entire hull was green with fungus/algae/something that smelled like.. can't even think of the words. The cement had, of course, absorbed significant amounts of moisture and stink. Probably wold never accept a coat of paint. He was trying to get someone to take it off his hands for the yard fees only. It was fully equipped for cruising, electronics, diesel, watermaker, windgen. Only problem was the cost of disposing the hull. Last I knew no one took it.


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## codmander (May 4, 2006)

hmm cement sinks rather glass with some floatation myself allthough floation can get spongey


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Glass sinks too...  So does resin...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

As does steel......


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## wiseleyb (Feb 11, 2007)

So - it sounds like a well constructed ferro has no down sides - why didn't this ever catch on with the production boats (who, if nothing else, can usually control quality to whatever degree they're known for)? (seriously - just interested, not trying to make a point or anything)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ferrocement boats don't really lend themselves to mass production. The wire-mesh framing is hard to replicate. Fiberglass boats can be much more easily mass-produced, since you can use molds to build the hull and major components of the interior and deck.

Also, unlike fiberglass boats, the interiors of ferrocement boats generally require a fair amount of woodworking skill, more so than fiberglass boats, where the interiors can be made of fiberglass. Also, the skill at plastering, which is required, is one not generally found in boat building skill sets. Getting a good finish on the boat depends on the skill of the plasterers working the hull-unlike the gelcoat of a fiberglass hull.

Finally, in many ways, a ferrocement boat makes sense for a one-off custom boat that is owner built, since much of the cost of building one is the intense labor of building the wire mesh framing. This type of prep work is required by every single boat.... Building the molds for a fiberglass boat is very labor intensive, but the costs for it can be spread out over many boats.



wiseleyb said:


> So - it sounds like a well constructed ferro has no down sides - why didn't this ever catch on with the production boats (who, if nothing else, can usually control quality to whatever degree they're known for)? (seriously - just interested, not trying to make a point or anything)


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## StoneAge (Sep 28, 2007)

*Ferro can be a steal...*

As an owner of a ferro boat, a properly built one, I can say that it could very well be a good boat that someone doesn't understand the construction procedures.

I know of a F/C boat here that was being worked on about 13 years ago. Guy didn't even know it. When he was told it was F/C, he just wrote off the 30,000 he had just put into it in an engine re-build and hull paint and various other things in a re-fit process. All that was left for him to do on it was the rigging. He didn't want a F/C boat, thought they were junk. Why? that's what he heard. It would be a great boat for someone (was too small for our needs) and it hasn't been finished or used (to my knowledge) since I looked at it in 1995. He didn't know it was ferro because there really wasn't any evidence of it. The entire interior hull and deck were sprayfoamed 1" thick (about 5k worth of insulation value right there ;-)) so you cannot see the hull material. Of course the person who sold it to him should have said something, but sometimes assumptions are made and these things don't get said. The exterior was smooth as glass and chalky faded like FRP tends to do. Still is. no streaks of rust or anything like that. Too bad the rest of it has gone to pot. Probably be a great bargain for someone out there...

Ferro Cement is not really a cement boat. A properly built one is a steel armature with 4 layers of either twisted hexagonical wire mesh (AKA "Chicken Wire") or the small square welded mesh. Then it is plastered with a special mix to keep the water out.

The steel armature consists of an appropriate sized re-bar framing. Ours is 1/4" solid re-bar crossed and welded every 2" on the vertical and every 4" on the horizontal.. Then there are 4 layers of square mesh on the inside and the outside of the armature. This "Webbing" is then fastened to the armature every 4" square giving the complete hull and deck a see through wire mesh look.

Then the plasterers come in. Yes, plasterers. Problem with some of the back yard builders is that they figured a cement truck from the local company that pours driveways can come and pour their boat for them.. Or they could go down to Home Depot and grab a couple of bags and a shovel.. Not so fast... There is a special mix that must be used so the plaster (not cement - different mix) doesn't react negatively to the salt water. And another hardener to ensure the proper strength. Ours was mixed on site with 2 professionals and 8 helpers over a 27 1/2 hour period. That is important too.. A continuous "pour". And then maintaining the moisture for a month after the pour. Ours was dressed in canvass and misted with hot water. Kind of a steam curing process. That was in 1973. It an even stronger boat today. I would trust her going THROUGH a 40 - 60' wave never mind one crashing on top of us.

I know of another ferro boat over on the west coast that hit a reef while under way. Immediately had her hauled only to find some bottom paint scratched away. He returned to the same reef in his dingy at low tide and evidence showed where he had hit. There was some bottom paint on a rock that had been broken off the top several yards away. And other evidence of him scraping along the bottom.

Wood and Fiberglass won't win a war with a reef. especially a coral one. Those branches can grind a hole through tho bottom of your boat before you know it. Steel might survive, but Ferro Cement will.

Point is.. This could be a VERY good boat for the money. And by the looks of the pictures, there's 10 grand worth of rigging, 3,000 in brass ports and another 1500 in dorade vents alone. Never mind a diesel and winches etc... . So you might have to deal with getting rid of the hull... It's mostly steel and they PAY you for that at your local recycler. Worst comes to worse, you find the hull a bad example, strip off all the gear and sell it. Break the hull up with a sledge hammer and sell the steel as scrap. There's probably 8 - 10 tons of it there.... Now all you have is a pile of gravel to get rid of. Know anyone who is building a driveway?

Something else to do - e-mail the broker and ask for the Official number and do a search on it through the coast guard site. It has a US registration number on the bow.. There would be a record of it being stolen or any liens on it. Also - don't expect it to look like that when you see it. And who cares what he says... Go look at it.. Offer him a price on the phone and BE PREPARED to give it to him when you see the boat and it passes your inspection.. If he stops you from looking before handing over cash, walk away. (always a good idea to wander the docks and yards without a broker present first)

As far as cement boats being slow? Yes - it takes us a little longer to get up to speed (we are registered 30.2 tons - 60 ft overall) but we stay there longer. (careful coming into the dock) and pound for pound Ferro Cement cruisers average out with fiberglass cruisers at about 35 - 38 feet. I'm talking cruising boats not racer cruisers. We travel along quite nicely at 9 - 9 1/2 knots without thinking about sail trim in 15 -20 knots. I can only guess what she'll be like when we get all the new deck gear on next spring (the Stone age is about to come out of the stone age ;-))...

Yes, there are some F/C boats that need to be buried, but the ones that are good are the best cruising boats out there. Maybe this guy's ignorance is another's windfall.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

After this glowing report of side walks that sail, I'm very surprised that MacGregor never jumped on the concrete band wagon. 

Oh well, another missed business oppurtunity falls by the wayside...........


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Go team go!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

StoneAge said:


> Yes, there are some F/C boats that need to be buried, but the ones that are good are the best cruising boats out there. Maybe this guy's ignorance is another's windfall.


I agree with this post and most of what's in it, but still maintain that the number of people who knew how to build effectively in ferro techniques was only a fraction of those who actually built ferro boats, and that of those who knew, only a fraction of those actually USED those techniques rigourously enough to have built a sound and enduring boat.

Ignorance, indolence or cheapness was the death of many a ferro boat, and has largely condemned the class, despite the outstanding qualities of several examples of conscientious ferro construction and the advocacy of such examples' owners.

My question about the "no survey" aspect would be "who the hell today could survey a ferro and give you useful data, anyway?" You'd be better off inviting a bridge or a sewer structural engineer aboard and letting him pull back some panels.

On the other hand, if it floats and doesn't leak, you could salvage a lot of stuff off a reasonably equipped boat, probably up to the purchase price. If it's actually sound for sailing, that would be a bonus. $9,000 isn't much.

Anyway, for what it's worth, here's some links I found helpful when ferro boats appeared on my radar. I eventually chose steel, but I didn't entirely rule out ferro:

http://www.ferrocement.org/
http://www.hartley-boats.com/books.html

and a book by a moody Canadian bastard on a 30 foot ferro:

http://www.amazon.com/Water-Between-Journey-Sea/dp/0385498845

(it was a good book, but I wanted to kick the author in the ass on occasion).

And here's the blog of a woman with about your level of knowledge who's trying to ready a 50 foot ferro for ocean voyaging. You'll find plenty of her trials and tribulations in the archives, plus a lot of off-topic stuff about her life.

http://www.ihaveaboat.blogspot.com/


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

Valiente said:


> and a book by a *moody Canadian bastard* on a 30 foot ferro:


No to derail this thread; but it seems to have covered all of the bases ....

Is there some connection between being Canadian and being Moody???

(Not you Val, another famous Canadian [ on this forum, anyway] who happens to be somewhat curmudgeonly???)


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## Ferroever (Apr 26, 2007)

I'm a ferrocement boat, I mean, a ferrocement boat owner and I think that $9000 bucks is a damn good deal for a ferrocement boat. For a start, the only reason they are cheap is because of the prejudices out there from people who have never owned a ferrocement boat before. You'll find very different advice from ferrocement owners, and it's not just because everybody loves their own boat medium. Bloke I sailed with last year, has a Moody, but built a ferro boat down in South Africa in the 70's, said he wouldn't mind returning to ferrocement for his plans to do more offshore/long distance cruising.

Basically, if you are considering a ferro boat, don't get all nervous about know-it-alls saying, 'There is no way for you to EVER test the integrity of the hull so you'll never know if the boat is doomed or not". Well, I say that there is a way to test the hull and that is by looking at the following points:
Is the boat old? The older the boat, the stronger the cement will have become. Cement gets stronger as it cures.

Is the hull smooth? If yes, that's a sign of a job well-done.

Tap for weak points. When I say weakpoints, I mean areas where there's some weeping - or crumbling - tap and see if it crumbles. If it does, is the area of weakness large or small? If small, it's no different to what happens to GRP or steel or wood. If you hit something, you get damage, you repair it. And ferrocement is easy to repair if what you are dealing with is minor. 
I had my boat in the yard earlier this year and scraped off all the old crap down to the cement and then filled a few weak areas - not many - with a cement/west system epoxy mix and voila....rock'ard again. We then put 3 coats of west system epoxy on, followed by barrier coat, then anti-foul.

Use your commonsense. If the hull looks sound, it probably is. Especially if the boat is 20+ years old.

Hope some of this helps.
The boat you are looking at looks well-=made and has a nice strong keel.

Not that I'm any expert, just going on firsthand experience.


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## Ferroever (Apr 26, 2007)

Hallso, to address some other concerns raised.....
Insurance. A pain in the bum, actually. It's only worth insuring if you paid squillions for your boat. The small print that come with most policies these days practically leave you with no option but to stay put in marinas.

Hard to sell? When I had mine up for sale, I got a lot of enquiries from people interested in ferrocement. A lot. But then I decided not to sell cos I know I'd regret it in the end.

Your biggest worry seems to be that you think that ferrocement can crumble upon impact. I can't imagine anything but a torpedo sinking my boat. It is truly solid as a rock. Something big [maybe a whale] banged into the port side in 2005 and there wasn't even a scratch on the hull from the collision.

Only by going to see the boat can you really see if the hull is any good. Ask if you can take a grinder to a small part of the hull to check out below. My boat had rust weep spots, but so did the other 4 ferrocement boats that I have seen in the yard since. And all of them are still sound. Rust weeps are quite common and are not indicitive of major corrosion going on within.

But I stand to be corrected.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Ferroever said:


> But I stand to be corrected.


Nice ninja-like reflexes there joining up. Welcome aboard.


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## chrisnewtimes (Feb 21, 2007)

the problems can be numerous, water intrusion sets up internal corrosion........problem.
bad build and flaking and other nasty things happen.
this one looks like a BRICK BUILT SH.... HOUSE, not sure that you really need the agro in your life, and you may have to pay to have it taken away.......
LOTS OF BOATS OUT THERE............it's a buyer's market, keep looking and dont get depressed there is a beautiful yacht out there for you to fall in love with somewhere, that deserves your money and time and attention?? yes?

cheers
Chris


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

There are too many good boats out there....don't let the excitement of a cheap price get to you. As has been said, you get what you pay for... this has to be a heavy, heavy boat for her size....might want to check the marina, see if anyone there knows anything about it as long as the seller won't let you get close to it without a complete price downpayment...

All that glitters is not gold..

Butch


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