# Looking for a 32-35' offshore boat



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Finally, I'm ready to buy my first big boat. Boat I'm looking for is a conservative design in fiberglass, 30-36' long (ideal range 32-35'), 12,000 to 15,000 lbs. displacement, draft of 6' max. Built by a reputable yard, in good condition (not a project) and coming with good essential gear. My priority is safety at sea, good motion while under way, and the ability to control the boat in all conditions by a crew of 2. Things I'm looking for are smaller cockpit, high bridge deck, encapsulated keel, keel stepped mast, tiller steering (preferred, but not a must have), good access to engine (and a good engine), preferably with wind vane already installed, good ground tackle with windlass. Prefer simple, reliable setup (KISS principle rules). Boat will be sailed short handed and possibly single handed at times. Something like a Cape Dory 33, Contest 33, Nicholson 35, Morgan 32, Bristol 34 or 35 (not a centerboard model). Looking for a boat on the East Coast, maybe on Great Lakes too if it is a good find. Budget for the boat: $30,000 plus another $15,000 for required upgrades. I have worked on sailboats for many years so I'm not afraid of tackling most repairs, upgrades and routine maintenance. 

I have owned boats and sailed most of my life, but these were all smaller, simple boats, up to 22' only with outboard motors. I camped on these boats for 1-2 weeks at a time, sailing mostly on Pamlico sound in NC. I crewed on bigger boats, but done short passages only (longest one was 6 days with 3 days off-shore). Next year in spring (May) I'm taking a 3 year sabbatical from work to taste the life of extended cruising. I'm planning to buy the boat by the end of this year or in early 2018. I realize I have a LOT to learn but I'm planning to take it slow and steady. Initially I will sail along the East Coast and later going further south and hopefully eventually crossing Atlantic at the right time of the year to cruise the Med. Low budget cruising, that is, out of sheer necessity ("...we were poor, but we didn't notice")
If you happen to know someone selling such a boat or share your experiences in that regard, please let me know.
As always, your input is greatly appreciated. :svoilier:


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Make yourself sick. Look at the Channel Cutter 34. The last and biggest boat Lyle Hess drew. A true bwb, drop dead gorgeous and beautifully built by a guy in Canada known for attention to detail and strong boats.
Only issue is they are ~350k and you're not likely to see a used one for sail.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

outbound said:


> Make yourself sick. Look at the Channel Cutter 34. The last and biggest boat Lyle Hess drew. A true bwb, drop dead gorgeous and beautifully built by a guy in Canada known for attention to detail and strong boats.
> Only issue is they are ~350k and you're not likely to see a used one for sail.


Yeah, that is real boat porn... :crying


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Your boat requirements are similar to mine. I ended up with a Valiant 32. I would consider other keel configurations, too. Encapsulated keels can be great. However, if you ram something, it would be hard to stop the ingress of water from the inside, would get the ballast wet, and tend to be a thicker keel. The Valiant 32, actually, is a continuous hull mold (like an encapsulated keel) with the lead bolted on the outside to the bottom. Has the advantage of a short lever arm on the keel bolts, deep bilge, and the protection of a blob of lead if I have a hard grounding.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Valiants 32 are great, but they are usually hard to find or cost too much. I'm not completely opposed to a bolt on keel, but it has to be a truly superb construction, and not many boats are built that way. The more traditional designs, like 3/4 full keel ride better over obstacles such as fish nets.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Sure you've already done this, but from this search:

(Sail) Cruiser Boats For Sale

I see several candidates (interesting that I selected only 'cruiser' and 'cutter', but still got a preponerance of fin keelers...)

Anyhow, an Allied Luders, Bristols, Cheribuni Hunters, a Rafiki and an interesting raised Salon Brit boat stood out for me..

If you choose to consider finkeels, a couple of CS33s (little sisters to Maine Sail's boat)


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Finding a boat of that size with a tiller and encapsulated keel is not going to be easy. The vast majority will have a bolt-on keel and a wheel. If you are flexible on those two points, it will open up your options significantly. Boats with a shoal keel would seem to be less susceptible to damage from grounding due to the smaller lever arm and wider base where it attaches to the hull. I came to my current boat with a wheel from over 30 years with boats with tillers. I got used to it pretty quickly. I sail on friends boats with tillers occasionally and now don't find much difference. The added mechanical advantage of the wheel is helpful especially for my wife who doesn't have a lot of upper body strength. She finds our 33 footer easier to steer than the Pearson 26 we had in the 80s.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

$30k will do it.
I think most boats offered will be just south of your 12k min displacement until you hit 36's.
For tillers, I think right away about Tartan 34c...many around...but are centerboards.

Cherubini 37 cutters are around....

The real money hit is all the dam equipping


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Right now I'm leaning towards Cape Dory 33, which are easier to find but not often in my price range. They come with a wheel, which I'm OK with, but fit the rest of my requirement list. I have seen a couple of Nicholsons 35 and a Contest 33, which I liked as well. Nicholson 35 is probably a best sailing boat of this lot. I sailed smaller centerboard boats all my life and I'm not sure if they can take the abuse a big storm on an open ocean can dish out.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1976 Bristol 34 sailboat for sale in North Carolina


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

krisscross said:


> .... I sailed smaller centerboard boats all my life and I'm not sure if they can take the abuse a big storm on an open ocean can dish out.


Don't forget that Killarney Sailor circumnavigated on a centerboard Bristol, I believe without issue on that score.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

RegisteredUser said:


> 1976 Bristol 34 sailboat for sale in North Carolina


Saw that. It's a centerboard model :/


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Faster said:


> Don't forget that Killarney Sailor circumnavigated on a centerboard Bristol, I believe without issue on that score.


Yes, I know, and we talked about that issue and he had no reservations about CB on such a trip. But he has a much bigger boat where perhaps the risk is lower. I also heard that someone circumnavigated in a Tartan 34, which of course has a large CB. Still, it would not be my first choice.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1988 Aloha 32 Plan A Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Also maybe look for at Ontario 32s

These will all be lighter than your 12k


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Aloha 32 is a good boat but a bit light displacement wise and the flush hatch on foredeck is a no-no for me. Ontario 32 would be a better choice but these are very rare boats.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1979 Contessa 32 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Direct flight from CLT.
...but it's 'too light'...

....got vane...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

If you look around, there's a Good Old Boat article on a couple and their Ontario 32, crossing the Atlantic. Meantime: 1984 Ontario 32 Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Buying a foreign flag (besides Canadian) boat seems like a lot of extra hassle and expense, but I would not mind buying a Contessa 32 even as it is not a good boat for cruising as it is cramped and small on space/tankage.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

PBzeer said:


> If you look around, there's a Good Old Boat article on a couple and their Ontario 32, crossing the Atlantic. Meantime: 1984 Ontario 32 Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


Thanks, John. Since you own one of these Ontario 32 boats, how do you like it?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Kriss

I think the O32 is a pretty decent boat, solid and well built, but maybe a bit tight accomodation-wise, no quarter berth (with the flip side of plenty of cockpit storage) There may have been versions that added the quarter berth but not sure.

One factor, don't know if it's really a big deal, but on the east coast with all the lobster pots, the O32 has an offset prop shaft (not in line with the keel/rudder), might be more exposed?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Just a thought...

If you could find a CSY37 already kitted out, but not ragged out, that might be a long term boat for you....dunno how much performance you really want (think you want right now)...

Will def be over 30k well equipped but might save in the long run...dunno what all you want to do.

Kinda hits your displacements numbers....


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Faster said:


> One factor, don't know if it's really a big deal, but on the east coast with all the lobster pots, the O32 has an offset prop shaft (not in line with the keel/rudder), might be more exposed?


 Good point. Thank you. It would be a huge minus in my considerations. I much prefer prop well protected from snags.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

RegisteredUser said:


> Just a thought...
> 
> If you could find a CSY37 already kitted out, but not ragged out, that might be a long term boat for you....dunno how much performance you really want (think you want right now)...


CSY is definitely on my list but more realistic in terms of budget is CSY 33


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The CSY had a steel structural frame which can be problematic as these boats have aged. 

Here are a few boats you might want to consider adding to your list might include the Niagara 35, some of the originals had tillers. Another option to add to your list is the Pearson 365 or 367 cutters. A favorite of mine in this genre is the Perry Designed Cheoy Lee 35. For that matter I also like the Ray Richard designed Cheoy Lee 32/Offshore 32 sloops.

Other options might include the Alajuela 33 sloop or cutter or the Aries 32/ Rough Water 33/Southern Cross 33, or the Cabo Rico 33/34 as a bit of a stretch maybe a Caliber 33. Another stretch might be the Vineyard Vixen 34.

In a different vein is something like the Endeavour 35, which was a very nice design that was a step up build quality wise than most Endeavours. Then there is something like the Bruce King designed Ericson 36C which is a surprisingly nice cruising design, and some had tillers.

Then there is something like the Bob Perry designed Islander Freeport 36. 

Jeff


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

krisscross said:


> Thanks, John. Since you own one of these Ontario 32 boats, how do you like it?


I like mine just fine. My few complaints are more a matter of nitpicking over convenience than any problem with the boat. As to Faster's concern with the offset shaft, I haven't had a problem (and it does seem to eliminate prop walk).

Addendum: Anyone that's spent much time in Carolina and on the Chessie knows I've been through a whole bunch of crabpots


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Jeff, thanks for the suggestions. A lot of the boats you mentioned are outside my budget or come up very rarely on the East Coast market. Most likely to find would be Pearson 365. I have looked at one a while back and liked it for the most part but these are real whales, even slower than Cape Dory 33. I also don't like the prop strut setup on them, which is very exposed and likely to snag on everything. But a lot of food for thought and stuff to search for out there.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Bayfield 32 and 32c will fit your budget.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

A bit bigger then you want now, and just a little more money...however, think there are some diamonds in the rough out there for you, take a hard look at these, bargain hard for the right one and you've got an awesome offshore boat, another Bob Perry sleeper...

1981 Valiant Esprit 37 Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

aeventyr60 said:


> A bit bigger then you want now, and just a little more money...however, think there are some diamonds in the rough out there for you, take a hard look at these, bargain hard for the right one and you've got an awesome offshore boat, another Bob Perry sleeper...
> 
> 1981 Valiant Esprit 37 Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


Wow! That is an awesome looking boat. I just can't swing the cost of initial purchase and the gear needed for my trip. :|


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Another design I have always liked is the Ericson 36c and the 31 Independence. These are nicely built boats designed for offshore use.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Lazerbrains said:


> Another design I have always liked is the Ericson 36c and the 31 Independence. These are nicely built boats designed for offshore use.


Yes, I like them too. The 31 is a bit on the small side but the 36c would be ideal, provided you could find them. I'm definitely keeping an eye on them.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Kriss-
I'd have the same concern about an encapsulated keel. I mean, it is nice that there's one hull over everything and you don't have to paint lead and all. But folks keep telling me that sooner later I'm going to bump the keep and I'd rather not have to fix frp if that happens, just hammer out or fill the lead. It wouldn't stop me, but I wouldn't be looking for it.
Similarly, a wind pilot is something that will cut down your choices. That's something Serious Cruisers only would install, which could mean more boat and more money and fewer choices. And then there's the arguments about which ones are really right, and how it clutters the transom. There's something to be said about a proper (below deck, not boltd on the wheel) AP. Properly sized to handle the load, properly balanced sail plan to not overwork it, and solar panels really should be able to resolve the need for power.
Just saying, don't let these things limit your choices. We all know used boats are like used cars, only driven by Grandma on her way to church choir on Sundays in good weather. (Ahuh.(G)


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

All valid points, hellosailor. I am trying to be pragmatic about it and not reject too many options. However, I can very easily check the integrity of an encapsulated keel to make sure it does not fall out on me some day in a heavy storm. The same can't be said about a bolt-on keel. I have seen too many keel bolts corroded to 1/4 of their diameter or twisted off entirely. The only way to make sure is to drop the keel and check everything. That alone is a significant expense and hassle. So I figure I can minimize my risk by avoiding these boats for this particular adventure.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

krisscross said:


> Yes, I like them too. The 31 is a bit on the small side but the 36c would be ideal, provided you could find them. I'm definitely keeping an eye on them.


This one looks nicely outfitted: 1976 Ericson Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Lazerbrains said:


> This one looks nicely outfitted: 1976 Ericson Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


I agree entirely, that is an Ericson 36C as in 


Jeff_H said:


> Then there is something like the Bruce King designed Ericson 36C which is a surprisingly nice cruising design, and some had tillers.
> Jeff


Regarding Krisscross' comments, I would note that there is at least one of each boat on the list that I proposed that is available for sale at this time at a price that is either within the budget proposed or might possibly be negotiated down to a price that is close to that budget.

You are right that the Pearson is no speed demon although the fin keel/cutter rigged versions are rated roughly 9 secs a mile slower than the Alberg 33.(Then again, I never did like the Alberg 33 for anything more than a daysailer/weekender and even then I really never did like the way they sailed even for that purpose.)


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Jeff - missed your earlier post skimming the 3 pages. I have always liked that design. 
My complaint about Albergs that I have sailed is they always seem hard to balance the sails/suffer from excess helm.
I also don't like the way they sail on their ear. At the same time, many just love them and have taken them far away places so there it is.

Krisskross - to add to Jeff's comments, when I was looking for my now current boat, I had almost identical requirements as you, the exception that I was looking
in the 30-32' range. I also had a budget to contend with. I basically made a list of boats that fit my needs - I would have likely been happy with any of the ones that made the final list. At that point price/condition becomes a large factor in finding a boat. Ericson 31 was on my list - I passed up on a really nice one because it had an Atomic instead of diesel - one of my requirements.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Lazerbrains said:


> This one looks nicely outfitted: 1976 Ericson Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


Owner/s put some money into her.
The standing rigging in '06 is a heap, by itself...lots of other stuff.

I would consider this a see-very-soon considering your stated needs.
Price looks good...see if the boat does, too....


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Lazerbrains said:


> I basically made a list of boats that fit my needs - I would have likely been happy with any of the ones that made the final list. At that point price/condition becomes a large factor in finding a boat. Ericson 31 was on my list - I passed up on a really nice one because it had an Atomic instead of diesel - one of my requirements.


I see in your profile that you ended up with a Bodega 30 which is similar to a better know Farallon 29, crab crushing full keel design that I like as well.  Are you happy with your choice?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes, that Ericson 36 in Florida is really nice. I'm actually planning a trip to FL soon to look at a couple of boats, one of which is a Contest 33 https://www.popyachts.com/sloop-sailboats-for-sale/conyplex-by-contest-yachts-33-in-miami-florida-111667 a boat very high on my list for a number of reasons. I was late with my offer on one boat already, a Kaiser Gale Force 34, I talked to the owner but someone else was faster :/ I might add that Ericson to my itinerary.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> You are right that the Pearson is no speed demon although the fin keel/cutter rigged versions are rated roughly 9 secs a mile slower than the Alberg 33.(Then again, I never did like the Alberg 33 for anything more than a daysailer/weekender and even then I really never did like the way they sailed even for that purpose.)


That is why I was surprised when you suggested P365 :nerd


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

krisscross said:


> I see in your profile that you ended up with a Bodega 30 which is similar to a better know Farallon 29, crab crushing full keel design that I like as well.  Are you happy with your choice?


Yes, I have been more than pleased with it.. Bodega 30/Farallon 29/Golden Gate 30 are the same boat. I believe the main difference is that when called the Farallon it was offered as a kit, so finish quality and interior layout can vary on those. Mine is a factory finished boat, well built. Allthough it is roomy for a 30' if you are looking for up to 36' it may be a bit small for you.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Lazerbrains said:


> Mine is a factory finished boat, well built. Allthough it is roomy for a 30' if you are looking for up to 36' it may be a bit small for you.


Looks like a great find. These boats are extremely rare on the East Coast. The buddy I will be sailing with (at least for the first leg of the trip) is a beefy 6' guy so I'm thinking: "we're gonna need a bigger boat..." :cut_out_animated_em


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

I have owned a Erickson 36C before - nice boat - lots of deck space forward, - I believe the one for sale in Ft Peirce has been on the market for some time - offer them $19K - buyers market - especially in the summer.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

cdy said:


> I have owned a Erickson 36C before - nice boat - lots of deck space forward, - I believe the one for sale in Ft Peirce has been on the market for some time - offer them $19K - buyers market - especially in the summer.


Thanks for the tip.  How did you like that boat and why did you sell it? What about construction quality, known problems?


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

I sold it because of the financial crash in 2008 combined with a divorce - the perfect storm, very well constructed - no real issues - boat had been sailed all over the Caribbean before me - it is a big 36, heavy, can be cutter rigged.

I knew another guy who sailed his on the west coast , down thru the canal and up to Florida - no issue he said.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks for the info, cdy. I really like hearing from people who sailed and owned a particular boat. I'm a person of modest means so this adventure represents many years of sacrifices to make it happen. I don't want to get a boat that is not suitable by nature, or a boat that turns out to be a lemon. I can fix a lot of stuff, but major structural problems usually are not fixable in older boats from the economic point of view.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

How about this Baba 30? Used 1983 Baba 30 3gmf, Deltaville, Va - 23043 - BoatTrader.com


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Those are nice boats. My dockmate has one. He is liveaboard and takes it out twice a month sailing. Slightly less room inside than my Bodega. Nice sailing boat, although it likes to have at leat 10kts wind. Lots of exterior teak to maintain. I think you can do better for that amount of money.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks for the sober analysis, Lazer. I always had a soft spot for Baba 30, ever since I have seen one up close years ago. You are right about the room issue on it. At least this one has the teak deck removed. This boat is only 5 hours drive away from me so it would be much easier to check out than boats in Florida.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

krisscross said:


> Buying a foreign flag (besides Canadian) boat seems like a lot of extra hassle and expense


Just did this - because I was buying in the Med, but putting the vessel under Canadian flag. Bought British, broker saw to it that PO de-registered in England, and the cancelled Brit reg and a notarized bill of sale (and a fee) was all I needed to register in Canada.

Don't think it was any more work than a US boat would have been. I think I did pay for the notary's fee in the UK.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

In US there seems to be a lot more trouble with buying and registering foreign flag boats. Recently read about a Scandinavian made boat denied registration because the engine was of some unusual brand that there was no emissions data for it and the state refused to register it (see the Engine Declaration form in the link below). And if boat was purchased and/or made outside NAFTA countries there is import tax that runs 1.5%. 
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1184/~/importing-a-boat-for-personal-use-into-the-u.s.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

krisscross said:


> In US there seems to be a lot more trouble with buying and registering foreign flag boats. Recently read about a Scandinavian made boat denied registration because the engine was of some unusual brand that there was no emissions data for it and the state refused to register it (see the Engine Declaration form in the link below). And if boat was purchased and/or made outside NAFTA countries there is import tax that runs 1.5%.
> https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1184/~/importing-a-boat-for-personal-use-into-the-u.s.


Totally forgot about import duties, at least for Canada they are not payable until the boat reaches Canada, so in my case and many others' not a problem. Does someone know the US story on that? 1.5% doesn't sound like it would be a deal killer if it's a steal in the first place.

The EPA paper on importing motor vehicles says engines more than 21 years old are exempt: https://www.epa.gov/importing-vehicles-and-engines/learn-about-importing-vehicles-and-engines


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

If not already pointed out:
CD 33 in NC - 
https://eastnc.craigslist.org/boa/6175095656.html


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

zedboy said:


> The EPA paper on importing motor vehicles says engines more than 21 years old are exempt: https://www.epa.gov/importing-vehicles-and-engines/learn-about-importing-vehicles-and-engines


One more piece from that document:

*1.4.2 Other Exemptions for Nonroad or Heavy-duty Highway Engines*
_For engines that are not yet subject to EPA emission standards, importers should check box 17 or 18 on Form 3520-21. These include engines that were manufactured before applicable emission standards were in effect. A recreational marine compression-ignition engine below 2.5 liters per cylinder imported under this provision must be manufactured before the 2006 model year. A recreational vehicle imported under this provision must be manufactured before the 2007 model year. In addition, certain sterndrive/inboard marine spark-ignition engines may also be eligible for an exemption if they are not yet subject to EPA standards (see 40 CFR part 91).
_

Upshot: small marine Diesel engines should be fine, unless they're very new, in which case it's hard to believe they don't have papers for US emission specs. Just wanted to put that out there since it's probably relevant for lots of people.

Is anyone building recreational-size marine Diesels today other than Yanmar, Volvo, Vetus, and Kubota (Beta)? I imagine they all have the requisite emissions docs for their new engines.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

cdy said:


> If not already pointed out:
> CD 33 in NC -
> https://eastnc.craigslist.org/boa/6175095656.html


Yes, that's the boat I have in mind. Reasonable price and decent boat condition.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Kriss whatever you buy beers are on me when you get to Ashkelon.

Personally I would want the big end of the spectrum for the pond. And would insist on fin keel and as much waterline as possible.

Like: Cherubini Hunter 37 (there is one on my dock), Gin Fizz (but uncommon on East Coast, could buy in Med), Tartan 33 or 37C if budget allows.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

zedboy said:


> Kriss whatever you buy beers are on me when you get to Ashkelon.
> 
> Personally I would want the big end of the spectrum for the pond. And would insist on fin keel and as much waterline as possible.
> 
> Like: Cherubini Hunter 37 (there is one on my dock), Gin Fizz (but uncommon on East Coast, could buy in Med), Tartan 33 or 37C if budget allows.


Thanks! Might take you up on that. Planning to stay in the Med for at least a year. 
I am also leaning towards boats with longer waterline and at least 33' on deck. T33 is actually not a very big boat.


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

Niagara 35. BoatUS - Boat Reviews - Niagara 35 Prices in Canada put it in your range. My buddy has had one for 15 years and loves it. Many trips from New Bern to the Caribbean. Well built, sails well, classic looks. He has factory cutter rig which is quite versatile offshore. Here is one for sale now at approx $38,500 US 1979 Niagara 35 Mk 1 | sailboats | City of Toronto | Kijiji


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

krisscross said:


> Thanks! Might take you up on that. Planning to stay in the Med for at least a year.
> I am also leaning towards boats with longer waterline and at least 33' on deck. T33 is actually not a very big boat.


Agreed, but it's 4' longer LWL and almost 1' more beam than a CD 33 = way more usable space and way faster.

You are maybe also the bottom of the range for a Ty 37. Or cheap out and find a Union/Polaris 36


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Sanduskysailor said:


> Niagara 35. BoatUS - Boat Reviews - Niagara 35 Prices in Canada put it in your range. My buddy has had one for 15 years and loves it. Many trips from New Bern to the Caribbean. Well built, sails well, classic looks. He has factory cutter rig which is quite versatile offshore. Here is one for sale now at approx $38,500 US 1979 Niagara 35 Mk 1 | sailboats | City of Toronto | Kijiji


There is a Niagara 35 for sale here: http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1981-niagara-35-niagara-102684715What do you think?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

zedboy said:


> Agreed, but it's 4' longer LWL and almost 1' more beam than a CD 33 = way more usable space and way faster.


CD33 is a more robust design, IMO. As to space: hull form on CD33 gives it quite a bit more room below than dimensions may suggest. But agreed, CD33 is not a very big boat either. I'm also looking at water tankage.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Niagara 35...
That one has the interesting layout with work/storage in the bow.

IIRC, all of these boats but a very few came with rod rigging.
If original, it's 36 yrs old. Many say you can re-head... Me, I would replace...prob with wire.

And this one isn't sail drive...many are.

I almost bought one of these boats.
Supposedly, all owners like them.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

RegisteredUser said:


> Niagara 35...
> That one has the interesting layout with work/storage in the bow.
> 
> IIRC, all of these boats but a very few came with rod rigging.
> ...


Are you talking about the N35 in Virginia? How can you tell it has rod rigging? 
It's a bit run down, owner not using it and looking for offers. Maybe would sell for 15-16K.
I'm not too crazy about their exposed prop and bow hatch which is flush with the deck and very large.
I would replace the standing rigging anyway, unless it was less than 10 years old (for wire) and passed a thorough inspection.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I gave it a lot of thought and I'm getting ready to submit a written offer on a Contest 33 https://www.popyachts.com/sloop-sailboats-for-sale/conyplex-by-contest-yachts-33-in-miami-florida-111667 I'm offering $15000. I like the design, the builder, the price, the gear (comes with Aries vane, good sails, raft, mast steps all the way up, and so on). If I don't like the boat upon inspection, I can walk away from the offer with no loss.
What do you think? :|


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Looks like she was recently painted too! I've never heard of the model, but she looks like she meets your criteria. Go for it man!


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I'm not real familiar with the Contest 33, but I looked up the numbers and what gave me the mosts pause is the 13.18 SAD ratio. That thing will be an absolute dog. Other things that turn me off from it - the hull deck joint looks like an inward flange, not heavily bolted like most offshore boats, looks to have a molded liner, and I wouldn't buy a Volvo diesel given the choice. Looks like the same size interior as my 30', so it is not roomy for it's size.

Is this a bolt-on keel?

[EDIT] Just found this: http://www.dickzaalyachtdesign.nl/profile/technical_blog/grp_contest_keels.html

It is an encapsulated ballast, but is concrete with iron and lead shot. I'm not a fan of that type of encapsulated keel.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The first boat that my family owned was a Contest 25. Mom and Dad bought our boat used in 1961 or 1962. Our boat was roughly 12 years older than the boat in question so I can't be specific about the build quality of boat in question, especially since the build quality at Contest greatly improved at some point. But our keel was built roughly as described with a thin fiberglass envelope over the ballast and a joint where the ballast met the hull molding. There were also keel bolts on our boat. Our boat was roughly two seasons old and the keel enclosure had already failed. The ballast on ours was iron. Dad actually ground off the fiberglass enclosure, which actually was loose enough that he could cut it with the grinder and peel off unadhered sections. He laid up a new enclosure in epoxy and cloth. 

Our boat also had wood transverse frames that were glassed into the hull at the bilge. These also began to rot out and separate from the hull in the short time before we bought our boat. So while the interior finish and general design was lovely, the early Contests were pretty poorly built. 

The Contest 33 was in part designed by U van Essen who designed the Flying Dutchman. It was a pretty sophisticated design for that era. The 25 was grossly under-canvassed for light air, but would wipe out pretty easily in a breeze. I have no reason to believe the 33 would have the same wipe out problem that the 25 had. 

Jeff


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

krisscross said:


> Are you talking about the N35 in Virginia? How can you tell it has rod rigging?
> It's a bit run down, owner not using it and looking for offers. Maybe would sell for 15-16K.
> I'm not too crazy about their exposed prop and bow hatch which is flush with the deck and very large.
> I would replace the standing rigging anyway, unless it was less than 10 years old (for wire) and passed a thorough inspection.


IMO, the Niagara 35 would be a great boat for what you want to do.
They came from factory with rod rigging.
A nice one, well equipped, will be asking $50+.
I looked at 2, both were v-drives..maybe all are...dunno.
Both had weathered topsides, but solid far-cruising boats (inherent to these?).
It has good numbers...look em up...
They produced a later model, called Encore, with more common cabin layout. Personally, I dig the hardcore cruiser model w/o v-berth. Just makes sense...
The sole boards latch closed...has a deep bildge.
I think you could load a years' worth of staples on this boat...


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Regarding the speed issue: Contest 33 has a PHRF rating of 192 which is a bit better than P365 (210) and about the same as CD33 (190). The hull to deck joint is actually one of Contest's stronger points, as it is glued, through bolted, and glassed over when the boat is assembled as two vertical halves. Yes, it is still a very slow boat.
As to general build quality, Contest boats built in the 1970's were considered well built and carried Lloyds certifications.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

That Contest looks like it has lots off goodies.
See if they are still good...
It could very well be set up for the plans you have.

Also, see what they go for over in Europe.

You're in a good location to go see boats...1 hard days drive to many popular ports.
Suggestion: When you find one that's a must-see, go ahead and line up others to see in that area...a 3-4 day weekend worth...bam, bam, bam...on a mission...
From the middle of FL you are only a few hrs away from any of the kajillion boats being offered.
Fly in and make the rental car company wish they had never rented to you...


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Kriss, Saturday's Child is up for sale as this past week. It's within your budget, it's a turnkey operation, nothing to update or add, ready for cruising. I can take you out for a day anytime you wish.

Take a look at 1973 Morgan Out Island 33 sailboat for sale in Maryland






Gary


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

krisscross said:


> Regarding the speed issue: Contest 33 has a PHRF rating of 192 which is a bit better than P365 (210) and about the same as CD33 (190). The hull to deck joint is actually one of Contest's stronger points, as it is glued, through bolted, and glassed over when the boat is assembled as two vertical halves. Yes, it is still a very slow boat.
> As to general build quality, Contest boats built in the 1970's were considered well built and carried Lloyds certifications.


A couple quick comments,
The Contest hull to deck joint was problematic on our 25. There is a wooden rail fastened horizontally through the joint which leaked and was not accessible to be repaired.

I like the fin keel skeg hung , sloop rigged version of the 365 /367 which I think is rated at 195. I think that the 210 rating is the ketch version. But these boats while not exactly spritely, none the less sail very well.

The Morgan OI 33 has a rating of 215 and Gary has made comments about making modifications which might slow his boat further but make her more comfortable.

Jeff


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

As far as I know, this quote applies to Conyplex construction method used to build Contest 33:
"Conyplex assembles the hull and deck before building the interior; the opposite is the usual practice. The joint is glassed over with at least seven layers of cloth and also through-bolted. This is an extremely strong hull-to-deck joint that should never leak. By raising the deck a few inches above the joint, the joint, covered by a teak rubrail and stainless steel strip, is less vulnerable to damage from collision with pilings and other boats. This is a superb configuration, though again the raised deck increases apparent freeboard."
Hull to deck joint is one of my areas of focus when choosing a boat, as I have run into several leakers over the years that were royal PITA to fix. The early Contest 25-1 was quite a different animal. Contest 25-2 was a pretty popular (at least in Europe) IOR 1/4 ton design and it was a big improvement over the 25-1.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

krisscross said:


> Regarding the speed issue: Contest 33 has a PHRF rating of 192 which is a bit better than P365 (210)


That is a far better number than the SA/D ratio would suggest. 13's is motorsailor territory. I wonder if the sailboatdata has the numbers wrong. Would be worth looking into.

I have no idea re the build quality, but Lloyds is always a good standard. When you see it it should be obvious if it was built well.

The Volvo on the other hand, that would turn me off personally.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The "by Contest" sounds interesting, although I have no idea what the different line is about. Bear in mind that if that Volvo is seawater cooled it is going on 50 years, and some Volvo engines literally get eaten by seawater as the internal cooling passages corrode. Similarly a life raft has maybe 10-year life, regardless of repacks. The French government condemn life rafts at ten years, apparently because the beloved Zodiacs are glued (as opposed to welded) construction and the glues simply fail too reliably after ten years. Zodiac-US won't even repack them at that point.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Jeff, I'm not sure what modifications you are referring to, and over the years you have my boat going so slow that it must be going backwards when I thought I was moving forward. My top speed, one that I have photographed on the GPS/Plotter, was 10.2 MPH/8.8 knots. For me, that was just fine, and I can singlehanded sail the boat with ease. Not bad for a crippled up old man of 77 years of age, that also has bad lungs. For the most part, the vast majority of the sailors I know, which I am sure is less than you know, really don't give a damned how fast they are cruising down the east coast of the US. The just want to get there in comfort, be able to handle rough seas without getting soaking wet, and have lots of interior space and comfort. Racers, like yourself, at least the ones I know personally, don't give a damned about comfort - they just want to go faster than the other folks in the race with them, even if it's just .01 mph faster. I don't believe Kriss is looking for a racing sailboat - just a comfortable cruising yacht - that's what Saturday's Child is!

All the best,

Gary


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## slap (Mar 13, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> A couple quick comments,
> The Contest hull to deck joint was problematic on our 25. There is a wooden rail fastened horizontally through the joint which leaked and was not accessible to be repaired.
> 
> I like the fin keel skeg hung , sloop rigged version of the 365 /367 which I think is rated at 195. I think that the 210 rating is the ketch version. But these boats while not exactly spritely, none the less sail very well.
> ...


Jeff -

The Pearson 365 came as either a sloop or ketch, and the 367 came as a cutter with a 1 foot deeper keel.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

travlin-easy said:


> Jeff, I'm not sure what modifications you are referring to,
> Gary


I thought that you had mentioned in other posts shortening the mainsail and so that you had more headroom and opting for smaller headsails quite a bit smaller than 150% to make the boat easier to handle.



slap said:


> Jeff -
> 
> The Pearson 365 came as either a sloop or ketch, and the 367 came as a cutter with a 1 foot deeper keel.


Thank you for the clarification. I thought that both the 365 and 367 offered an option of a sloop. In the case of the 367, it simply meant that the jibstay and its attachment points were not installed. I can't swear to that but that has always been my understanding.



krisscross said:


> As far as I know, this quote applies to Conyplex construction method used to build Contest 33:
> "Conyplex assembles the hull and deck before building the interior; the opposite is the usual practice. The joint is glassed over with at least seven layers of cloth and also through-bolted. This is an extremely strong hull-to-deck joint that should never leak. By raising the deck a few inches above the joint, the joint, covered by a teak rubrail and stainless steel strip, is less vulnerable to damage from collision with pilings and other boats. This is a superb configuration, though again the raised deck increases apparent freeboard."
> Hull to deck joint is one of my areas of focus when choosing a boat, as I have run into several leakers over the years that were royal PITA to fix. The early Contest 25-1 was quite a different animal. Contest 25-2 was a pretty popular (at least in Europe) IOR 1/4 ton design and it was a big improvement over the 25-1.


I believe that this description is precisely how the Contest 25 hull to deck joint was constructed except that the teak rubrail was made of mahogany on the 25. (For clarity, I know that there was a 25 Mk II and a 25 MKIII that were different boats but the first Contest 25 was not called a 25-1) While the description mentions the wooden and stainless steel rub rail, it does not mention how it was fastened. The fastenings were horizontal and passed horizontally through the hull to deck joint allowing the potential for water to enter the boat as it did on our Contest 25. My understanding is that Conyplex improved the build quality in the late 1970's and early 1980's. depending on the specific models.

Jeff


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks for clarification, Jeff. I will pay a close attention to the hull to deck joint when inspecting the boat. Usually, the evidence of leaks on an older boat is hard to miss.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

krisscross said:


> Thanks for clarification, Jeff. I will pay a close attention to the hull to deck joint when inspecting the boat. Usually, the evidence of leaks on an older boat is hard to miss.


That is why I mentioned it. The leaks were pretty visible in some of the lockers near the low point in the sheer. I also suggest lifting the floor boards and looking closely at and tapping on the transverse frames. On the early Contests these were softwood frames glassed into place. The bottom of the frame was exposed to bilge water and began rotting out very quickly on our 25.

I hope that the boat works out,

Jeff


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Nope, wasn't me, Jeff. The headsail is the same one that came with the boat, and if you are familiar with the Out Island 33, the standard clearance between the boom and cockpit deck is about 7 feet - no need to change this.

All the best,

Gary


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## elliowb (Jun 8, 2015)

krisscross said:


> Yes, I like them too. The 31 is a bit on the small side but the 36c would be ideal, provided you could find them. I'm definitely keeping an eye on them.


I looked a copy of each when I was shopping for a cruiser. While the Independence is a great boat, I think you're right, it's too small.

The 36C is great, nice layout below, alleged good sailing (although I didn't get to do a test sail on her). I actually made an offer on the 36C, but in the end it didn't survey well, so I passed on it. Still I was very sad to have to move on. Because of the flush deck, the interior feels like a much bigger boat.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Anybody knows a good sailboat surveyor in Miami?


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I love looking at boats. Did a search this morning and here are a few more that might fit your criteria:

1975 Kaiser 'Gale Force' Auxiliary Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1971 Hallberg-Rassy MISTRAL 33 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

76 Bristol 32 Sloop sailboat for sale in Florida

1972 Bristol 35 Yawl sailboat for sale in Florida

1985 Nicholson - Rescue this boat 35 sailboat for sale in Florida

1975 Laurin Koster L32 long cabin ketch sailboat for sale in Florida


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Alas, that Kaiser has sold already. It was my first choice. Talked to the owner 2 weeks ago. I was late with my bid on it :/
Laurin 32 is a good boat but a bit small for what I want to do. Nicholson is a serious project boat. B35 is a centerboard boat.
Mistral is very nice but too much teak on deck. Bristol 32 is one of the designs that are not best on long passages.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

While you may possibly have a romantic bias towards less-efficient sailing designs, you should not dismiss out of hand well engineered 'modern' offshore boats like the Bruce King designed Ericson's of the 80's.
In your price range, you might luck out and find a clean E-32-3 (or aft cabin version, the E-32-200). At your price point the Holland-designed E-33 or E-36 would also be a good cruising choice.

Happy shopping!


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

olson34 said:


> While you may possibly have a romantic bias towards less-efficient sailing designs, you should not dismiss out of hand well engineered 'modern' offshore boats like the Bruce King designed Ericson's of the 80's.
> In your price range, you might luck out and find a clean E-32-3 (or aft cabin version, the E-32-200). At your price point the Holland-designed E-33 or E-36 would also be a good cruising choice.
> 
> Happy shopping!


Good point!  My possible romantic bias likely goes back to sailing some modern designs under somewhat rough conditions. I also sailed on more traditional boats (like Cape Dory 36) under similar conditions. I like the E37 design but they are hard to find and their build quality is not always best. I also dislike spade rudders from safety bias.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree iron for an encapsulated keel is a no no. Iron swells as it rusts and eventually bursts the enclosure. Have had boats with every type of keel you can think of except dagger boards. Encapsulated lead done right is perhaps the safest most maintenance free foolproof way to do it. Peak at Perry s cutters (where there was no budget restriction) or Outbounds (where there is). Wouldn't hold this against a boat if done right. Second would be bolted lead on a significant stub. Worst is many high aspect find bolted to canoe body. In a hard grounding grp or cf fails at point aft end of keel joins hull. Forces driving it up into the hull are huge even when running below hull speed. Idea that lead is going to absorb much of the communicated forces maybe wishful thinking. 
Had a CD from MA not Robinhood. It was a fine seaboat but little room inside by current standards.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

When looking for specific boats/stuff listed on craigslist, I've found allofcraigslist.com useful.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

outbound said:


> Agree iron for an encapsulated keel is a no no.


Contest keel ballast is made of lead chunks and steel large diameter shot to fill the voids, encapsulated in a uniform resin bed that forms the bottom of the hull cavity and extends to rudder skeg. It is probably more about how well it is done than materials used. Willard boats (commercial cutters and recreational sailboats) had ballast made of iron chunks encapsulated in the resin, and these are flat out awesome boats that stood the test of time really well.
I have looked at a lot of boats over the last year and did a lot of research. For the money (if my offer is accepted), this Contest 33 seems like a very good deal, considering the boat design, build quality, and equipment included. And I genuinely like the boat too. But if the sale does not go through for one reason or another, it will not bother me one bit. I have other possible choices. Last one that caught my eye is a Huges 38, which is a bigger boat than I intended, but I just love the classic S&S design and the boat seems to be in good shape. 1968 hughes hughes38 sailboat for sale in New York


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Sounds like you have a plan..and have had one for a while....and are keeping to it.
That's not so easy to do. 
I hope she checks out OK for you.
It's a big deal.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

One thing I have learned is that the long range cost of a boat can often be the inverse of the initial purchase. Particularly when looking at a "cheaper" older boat versus a newer, more expensive one. As much as I love my boat, I'd be in much better shape, money-wise, had I bought the more expensive 20 yr newer boat I almost did.


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## slap (Mar 13, 2008)

While the cost of used boats has dropped quite a bit in the last 10 years, the cost of parts, supplies, and labor to fix a boat hasn't. Paying a premium for a boat in top condition is usually the most cost effective choice, unless the premium is way out of line.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

slap said:


> While the cost of used boats has dropped quite a bit in the last 10 years, the cost of parts, supplies, and labor to fix a boat hasn't. Paying a premium for a boat in top condition is usually the most cost effective choice, unless the premium is way out of line.


Not just the condition, but newer stuff doesn't need replaced as soon as older stuff, generally.

As an aside, what's somewhat near Indianapolis? Anderson, Lebanon, Seymour, New Castle?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Actually, I believe that if you find an older boat that is well cared for, you have less headaches than when purchasing a new boat. Just about everything that needed fixing or replacing has usually been fixed or replaced on the older boat, and in many instances, it's a turnkey operation for the next decade - not usually the case with a new boat that you paid a huge sum of money for. And, most of the time, the cost of that older boat is a fraction of what the new one would cost, yet it has all the goodies already installed by the previous owner. The new boat will be bare bones, stripped if you may, and you will ultimately bear the expense of adding all the new toys, radar, AIS, electric windlass, GPS/Plotter, Auto-pilot, you know, the fun stuff. 

Good luck, Kriss, and I hope you find what you are searching for,

Gary


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

PBzeer said:


> Not just the condition, but newer stuff doesn't need replaced as soon as older stuff, generally.
> 
> As an aside, what's somewhat near Indianapolis? Anderson, Lebanon, Seymour, New Castle?


I think by 'somewhat near Naptown', he means near Annapolis Md.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Didn't know Annapolis carried that sobriquet as well.


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## slap (Mar 13, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> I think by 'somewhat near Naptown', he means near Annapolis Md.


Yep. Current boat is in Edgewater, MD, on the Rhode River.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Would a Rival 32 be a better choice than Contest 33? There is one much closer to me in NC: Park Boat Companies Brokerage Division (Manteo, NC)


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Not that I have ever sailed either, but looking at the numbers (SA/D, L/D, LWL, Ballast ratio, etc) and the interior layout, tankage and so on, the Contest looks like a wildly better boat in all ways. Of course, this ignores issues of build quality and those intangibles that the numbers do not address. 

Jeff


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> Not that I have ever sailed either, but looking at the numbers (SA/D, L/D, LWL, Ballast ratio, etc) and the interior layout, tankage and so on, the Contest looks like a wildly better boat in all ways. Of course, this ignores issues of build quality and those intangibles that the numbers do not address.
> 
> Jeff


Thanks, Jeff. Yes, that is what I thought as well.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

https://houston.craigslist.org/boa/6189037843.html


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I think a friend of mine still has one of those. When he brought it back from the islands everyone commented about the way there's no interior space compared to a modern design. And then again, for a CRUISING BOAT?

Seaworthy sailboat, classic design, lot of extras
--but not worth naming
Manufactured by Pearson
Pathfinder Radar Raymarine
ST60 Tridata Raymarine
ST 4000 Wheel autopilot
--old instruments, might still work, time to replace
Universal Atomic 4 engine, updated , in excellent condition
--seriously, gasoline for long distance cruising?
12 V refrigerator
--unspecified and if it is original, poorly insulated and due to replace
Marine AC MarineAir
Water heater
Water pressure
Bottom done in 2016 new zincs and propeller
--can't really examine the bottom then
Deck painted in 2017
--Deck was tired, but not the hull? Painted how well?
--Hope there's no core problems in that deck.

Oh, it might need all new sails, that's usually the case when no one mentions them.
So, bargain? Maybe for coastal and weekend sailing. Not for cruising. The Alberg is classic plastic--but would be a slow cramped dog compared to a modern boat but a yard longer.


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## Loki9 (Jun 15, 2011)

krisscross said:


> Regarding the speed issue: Contest 33 has a PHRF rating of 192 which is a bit better than P365 (210) and about the same as CD33 (190).


Where? San Fransisco?

In Long Island Sound, a generally light air venue, the Contest 33 rates 222 (a full 30sec/nm slower than 192) and is about the same as the Pearson 365, 216 (cutter) or 228 (ketch).

Personally, I like a bigger rig and would go nuts in something that slow. With a bigger rig you can always shorten sail when the wind is up, but in less than 10kts would a Contest 33 even move?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1981 Allied Luders 33 sailboat for sale in Massachusetts


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks for all your input. It is greatly appreciated. I hit a pause on the Contest purchase, even as I still like that boat. All the design shortcomings aside, the distance and 32 year old engine has me concerned regarding economics of potentially having to re-power or at least rebuild in near future. I would have to motor up the Ditch some 650 miles right after the purchase. Would it hold? Who knows.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1982 Morgan 383 sailboat for sale in Florida

I would look at this one.
The complete gear set up is worth more lots more than 1/3rd of the boat.
That boat may have a sailing blog...check.


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## john walsh (Feb 22, 2014)

Have you looked at allied sea breeze, allied princes?? Good old boats how bout a bristol 32 or 34?


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Hey Kriss -

I almost forgot about another one that may fit your bill - Downeast 32. 
I was very interested in these for awhile, but never found one in good shape.


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## Endless Summer (May 16, 2016)

Follow the usual "heavy slow, 4 ft thick fiberglass floating tank methodology"

Just kidding....... 

But that's all you are going to hear...


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

Endless Summer said:


> Follow the usual "heavy slow, 4 ft thick fiberglass floating tank methodology"
> 
> Just kidding.......
> 
> But that's all you are going to hear...


Except for a faint voice from way off shore, sailing along at 10+ kts, saying: "find an Olson 34 for your cruising!" No need to go slow.
:wink
And, yes, we did sail down the Washington coast homewards, in 2014. 95% Jib only, 24 kts true. The AP was driving with no pressure. Did not need the main.
When we motored north, a month before, we were doing 7 kts under power against a light wind on the nose and moderate seas.
Not all newer boats are weak, and of course not all the old designs are slow... I have friends with refurbished Cal-40's and they are great cruising boats.

Happy shopping!
:2 boat:


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Lazerbrains said:


> Hey Kriss -
> 
> I almost forgot about another one that may fit your bill - Downeast 32.
> I was very interested in these for awhile, but never found one in good shape.


 They have not the greatest reputation. No teak deck for me either.
Bristol 34 (full keel, no CB) is very much on my list. Great design. The B32 is not a great offshore boat from what I hear. Allied 32-36 boats are also on the list. 
I can't help but like the older, slower designs, mostly for motion comfort and safety at sea reasons. But I like Cal boats as well, for example, because they are good designs and well built.
On a lot of boats I just take one look at their thin mast and say: "Meh..." regardless how fast they can sail on a good day. Sooner or later on a long cruise you are going to face some horrific weather, and the boat must be able to handle it. That is the weakest link in my chain of considerations. I'm ok doing 6 knots instead of 10. I will just pack more rice and beans.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

krisscross said:


> They have not the greatest reputation. No teak deck for me either.


Maybe you are confusing with something else? I'm talking about the Downeaster 32 cutter:

The Downeaster 32 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org

Heavy offshore boat built to Lloyds standards - no teak decks, good reputation as an offshore boat. Good build. Heck, they built the Westsails for awhile. Honeycomb FRP cored decks - never worry about core rot. Only thing I didn't care for was the lack of backrests in the cockpit.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Good point, Lazer. I think I confused that boat with the boats made in Asia with teak decks, iron ballast, wood spars, and low quality in general.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Lazerbrains said:


> Maybe you are confusing with something else? I'm talking about the Downeaster 32 cutter:
> 
> The Downeaster 32 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org
> 
> Heavy offshore boat built to Lloyds standards - no teak decks, good reputation as an offshore boat. Good build. Heck, they built the Westsails for awhile. Honeycomb FRP cored decks - never worry about core rot. Only thing I didn't care for was the lack of backrests in the cockpit.


I have sailed these boats in a range of conditions with their owners, and with people who wanted to buy one. I thought that they sailed poorly all across the wind range but especially at either end of the wind range and had one of the worst motions I ever experienced. (The Endevaour 37 holds the all time record worst). The heavy air sail was only gusting to around 20 knots of wind and in the steep chop in Calibogue Sound, but even with a reef she was a bear to keep on course. I can't imagine how she would have behaved in a serious breeze.

Jeff


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> ...had one of the worst motions I ever experienced. (The Endevaour 37 holds the all time record worst). The heavy air sail was only gusting to around 20 knots of wind and in the steep chop in Calibogue Sound, but even with a reef she was a bear to keep on course. I can't imagine how she would have behaved in a serious breeze.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff, are you talking about worst motion in sense of boat's behavior under sail, such as weather helm, poor tracking, etc. or worst motion in sense of comfort to the crew? I'm sure at some point these two are related.
And second question: what in these boats causes such poor motion? Relatively shallow draft? Relatively high center of gravity?


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## Endless Summer (May 16, 2016)

olson34 said:


> Except for a faint voice from way off shore, sailing along at 10+ kts, saying: "find an Olson 34 for your cruising!" No need to go slow.
> :wink
> And, yes, we did sail down the Washington coast homewards, in 2014. 95% Jib only, 24 kts true. The AP was driving with no pressure. Did not need the main.
> When we motored north, a month before, we were doing 7 kts under power against a light wind on the nose and moderate seas.
> ...


I agree, I am not a subscribed of the heavy slow boat religion. I prefer something comfortable and fast, there are plenty of well built boats out there that will work for offshore. Few (if any) people are going to 'round the horn anyway.

I think people forget they also have to live on the damn thing.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I've only sailed on the 38' version, and found it to be very balanced, with a very smooth motion as you would expect from a heavy offshore cruiser. 

But then again, I know that JeffH doesn't like these type of heavy boats and his opinion of comfort is contrary to typical opinion. He typically prefers raceboats of a type that I would consider to have *very* uncomfortable motion.


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## Endless Summer (May 16, 2016)

olson34 said:


> Except for a faint voice from way off shore, sailing along at 10+ kts, saying: "find an Olson 34 for your cruising!" No need to go slow.
> :wink
> And, yes, we did sail down the Washington coast homewards, in 2014. 95% Jib only, 24 kts true. The AP was driving with no pressure. Did not need the main.
> When we motored north, a month before, we were doing 7 kts under power against a light wind on the nose and moderate seas.
> ...


I agree, I am not a subscribed of the heavy slow boat religion. I prefer something comfortable and fast, there are plenty of well built boats out there that will work for offshore. Few (if any) people are going to 'round the horn anyway.

I think people forget they also have to live on the damn thing.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Lazerbrains said:


> But then again, I know that JeffH doesn't like these type of heavy boats and his opinion of comfort is contrary to typical opinion. He typically prefers raceboats of a type that I would consider to have *very* uncomfortable motion.


Lazer, I thought you knew me better than that after all these years. I am disappointed.  But in any case that is only partially true. While I currently do prefer to own more modern, performance oriented, cruising designs, I actually do like traditional boats and have owned a number of them. Here's two of the traditional boats that I have owned: 




Traditional designs can have a really nice motion, typically with a very slow roll and pitch rate, albeit often though larger roll and pitch angles. Both the 1939 Stadel Cutter and the Folkboat had lovely motions in roll, although the Stadel Cutter was not so comfortable in pitch. What I don't like are boats whose sailing ability, motion comfort, and seaworthiness have been badly compromised for some racing rule such as the Universal, International, CCA and IOR measurement rules. And I don't like "raceboats of a type that I (too) would consider to have *very* uncomfortable motion."

The uncomfortable motion on the Downeasts had to do with both roll and pitch. In the sort of short chop I was talking about, the boat rolled excessive. We use to talk about boats that felt like they were going to 'roll their stick out". The Downeast was one of those. But unlike more traditional designs, where there was comparatively little buoyancy in the topsides of the boat, the Downeast would jerk to a halt at the end of the roll. As the boat stood back up the boat also wanted to change course sharply. It tracks reasonably well in flat water, but had a lot of weather helm if you don't reef the mainsail early.

The bigger problem with its motion was in pitch, where the bow would collide harshly with each wave. It was like being in a series of slow speed car crashes, as the boat would deaccelerate and the bow would jerk upwards, then the counter would hit the water and stop the rotation harshly, before the bow fell to collide with the next wave. I have sailed a lot of traditional boats in these conditions. Most would have been a lot more comfortable than the Downeast.

The boat did not sail well in terms of offering reasonably reliable sailing capabilities let alone pointing ability or general seakeeping. I think of it this way. One of the nicest sailing boats i ever sailed was my old Folkboat. It was nicely balanced and easy to handle. It was not fast in any absolute sense, but it sailed reliably well on all points of sail, was forgiving in a breeze, did not try to round up or down in heavy or light air. That is what I mean by sailing well.

In light air, the Downeast 32 would not hold a course bearing away on its own no matter what the rudder angle. In heavier air, you needed to reef early to avoid large amounts of weather helm, and gusts would lay her over and quickly increase weather helm. It wasn't that she would round up like a modern boat at those heel angles, but she would just lose speed quickly at that point. It was hard on the helmsman and hard to move about the boat. The Downeast 38 was a better boat all around, but still not a great boat compared to a traditional design that it was only a caricature of.

It would be hard for me top explain why sailed badly. If I had to speculate (and this is soley speculation), to have a comfortable motion a boat should not have too much form stability or too little. Too much and the boat snap rolls with each wave. Too little and the boat rolls through very large angles, and if the boat has a lot of roll moment of inertia, and not much dampening, it will roll out of sync with the wave train, so that it crashes more forcefully into the next wave at the end of each roll. It was my sense that the Downeasts do not have enough form stability and dampening in roll, and that the entry and exit shape of the hull built bouyancy too abruptly.

Jeff


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I really enjoy these types of threads.
The buyers and sellers can feel some stress, but it is a fun exercise for others, and there are tons of helpful information/opinions being tossed around. 
Healthy stuff...

If you find a boat you really want before you are ready to spring for all the bucks, some sellers may hold it with a good deposit. 
They feel safe with a sell, and you feel some comfort in that portion of the journey being over. Stress relief for both.
But then the new buyer can think of nothing else.....


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1987 Moody 346 sailboat for sale in Florida
1980 Hunter 37 sailboat for sale in Florida


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

RegisteredUser said:


> 1987 Moody 346 sailboat for sale in Florida
> 1980 Hunter 37 sailboat for sale in Florida


The Moody 346 is an updated version of the boat that Vince and Amy bought and are using the YouTube video channel 'Sailing Nervous'. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4x5ZeAGz8Z_k0TzQO6fYIQ

I have sailed with Vince and Amy and its actually a pretty nice boat. If this one is structurally sound, has decent sails, and a working engine (hopefully not the Thorneycraft) it is a heck of a good deal that price.

Jeff


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1979 CHEOY LEE sailboat for sale in Louisiana


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

The moody in Florida is in bad shape needs engine and the keel bolts are rusted. Also took in water so there is damage.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

I looked at the moody but it has no electronics , bad engine and rusted keel and took in water. 20k plus in repairs does not make it that great of a deal.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Right now it looks like the boat-to-be will have a crew of 3. My 2 friends are both pretty set on the trip all the way. I'm starting to think we will need something more like Pearson 365 with its 17,000 lbs displacement.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

https://houston.craigslist.org/boa/d/hallberg-rassy-rasmus/6222435211.html


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

in Michigan:

https://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/boa/d/ft-pearson-vanguard/6174327254.html

https://nmi.craigslist.org/boa/d/true-north-sailboat-cruiser/6124923131.html

https://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/boa/d/endeavour-comfortable/6219779794.html


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

How about Cabot 36? 1977 Cabot 36 sailboat for sale in South Carolina


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

krisscross said:


> How about Cabot 36? 1977 Cabot 36 sailboat for sale in South Carolina


Are you going to go look at her?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thinking seriously about it. From what I know, it's a good design and boat seems to be reasonably priced and in good shape.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Looks capable of good speed too.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1978 Union 36 Cutter sailboat for sale in Maryland


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

RegisteredUser said:


> 1978 Union 36 Cutter sailboat for sale in Maryland


Nice find. Seems like a good deal, considering all the recent work (repower, rigging, etc). Those are good offshore boats for sure.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Tomorrow I have appointments to look at Pearson 365 and Morgan 382. I have been considering somewhat larger boats as it will be a journey of 3 cranky old dudes... :ship-captain:


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

krisscross said:


> Tomorrow I have appointments to look at Pearson 365 and Morgan 382. I have been considering somewhat larger boats as it will be a journey of 3 cranky old dudes... :ship-captain:


I like the 382, and they have a proven track record - and boy are they roomy for the size.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

OK, looked at Morgan 382 yesterday, which was out of water. I could not get inside but got a thorough look at all the outside systems. That is a BIG boat in pretty good shape with a lot of new stuff. Owner prepared it for going to the islands but got into heavy weather offshore and headed home after boat developed some problems (bilge kept flooding, pump barely keeping up). Problem areas I saw: bow pulpit loose, with very loose bolts holding it - likely source of water getting into bilge. Cracks visible along the above water centerline on bow and stern hull sections. Some cracks in deck along toe rail, cracks all around mast to deck partner. Damage mid ship to cap rail. Looks to me like the boat hit something quite hard. There are 3 through hulls that were plugged up on the starboard side. One looks very problematic, with a plug sticking up about an inch and not very good seal around it. Mast has a pronounced rake back from the spreader up. It is a very stout mast but the bend in it seems excessive. All outside wood needs immediate attention, with at least one small (1-2') section mid ship needing replacement or serious repair.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

If it were me, I would keep looking. That doesn't sound like the best one for you.

Assuming it was in good condition, however, how did you like the 382?


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Walk.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

A lot depends on the the price for the Morgan - I have seen them from $25K to $65K , most should be in the $35K area - I have sailed on them and been in a few more- nice boats but I would not overspend for one - there are always a number of them for sale in Florida


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Also looked at a Pearson 365 ketch yesterday, inside and out. Overall seems adequate in terms of build quality but a few issues that made me think. Bilge is filthy, with oil film everywhere, and some nasty looking standing water. Soft, flexible holding tank looks like it would rip apart when sailing in rough weather. Propane stored in lazarette locker, not properly drained, no sensor. Batteries and electrical panels located in port cockpit locker, terminals quite rusty. Standing rigging replaced in 1999 but quite rusty. I lifted the pvc covers on the shrouds and lots of rust came out. Standing rigging has to be replaced. Sail covers in poor shape, sails quite old. Electronics old. Wood outside needs attention and varnish. Owner is asking $32K, had offers around $17-18K but did not take it. I think he should have taken these offers as boat needs a lot of work.
Neither one of these boats made me want to buy them.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Flee.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Lazerbrains said:


> If it were me, I would keep looking. That doesn't sound like the best one for you.
> 
> Assuming it was in good condition, however, how did you like the 382?


Yes, I liked the 382 even as it looks a bit intimidating to me. Owner is asking $44K. Boat has new rigging, new electronics, very nice electric windlass and is rigged as a cutter with a detachable stay. Owner spent some serious money getting it ready for his trip, but now boat needs some work. I might be tempted if he would agree to about $34K, pending survey.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes, neither of these boats made me all giddy inside...


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

krisscross said:


> *Propane stored in lazarette locker, not properly drained, no sensor.* Batteries and electrical panels located in port cockpit locker, terminals quite rusty.


Yikes! Obviously fixable, but really would make me wonder what else was "rigged the easy cheap way" by the owner. Shopping used boats, I have always been amazed at some of the things I have seen that the owner seems to think is perfectly acceptable. There is a difference between a boat that has been neglected, but 'done right' and one that has been continually "done wrong" but appears more upkept. I would take the former over the latter.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Looks like a veteran cruiser...all set up....and not too far away.
Drive down tomorrow, look at her Sun morning....

Aloha 32, 1983, New Bern, North Carolina, sailboat for sale from Sailing Texas, yacht for sale


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks!  I'm putting together a batch of boats to look at in Oriental-New Bern area. Aloha 32 is a bit small for what I need and I really don't like hatches which are flat with the fore deck for safety reasons.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1982 Morgan 383 sailboat for sale in Florida


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1986 Bayfield Bayfield 36 sailboat for sale in Virginia


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

RegisteredUser said:


> 1986 Bayfield Bayfield 36 sailboat for sale in Virginia


Wish I could come up with that kind of money :/


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

There's a really nice Hunter 25.5 for sale in another thread...


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Minnesail said:


> There's a really nice Hunter 25.5 for sale in another thread...


Ha ha... I can't afford it either! 
But I was tempted to look at H37. Not a bad boat IMO and they can be real bargains.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

The Chesapeake Maritime Museum has its boat auction this Saturday. There's a Dreadnaught 32 ketch that's going to be auctioned off which I think you should buy because it's pretty: #4142 Dreadnaught 32 Ketch - Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum , https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157685229131336


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

It is definitely a very pretty boat. Woodie?


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

krisscross said:


> It is definitely a very pretty boat. Woodie?


I haven't seen the boat, but it says "FG" on the sailboat data page: DREADNOUGHT 32 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com and here's another: 1974 Dreadnought Tahiti Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Send me the max amount of $$ you want to pay via Western Union and I'll bid for you and send you back the difference.


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## drewzn (Aug 6, 2008)

PM'd you. I have a '78 Pacific Seacraft Mariah 31 with all new sails and brand new Yanmar. Message me if you're interest in discussing and I can send you more info and pics. We were just just cruising Maine and talking about a bigger boat for our growing family.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

IIRC, the Dred came about during the Westsail craze...?
All FG


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

willyd said:


> Send me the max amount of $$ you want to pay via Western Union and I'll bid for you and send you back the difference.


Thanks for the offer


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

RegisteredUser said:


> IIRC, the Dred came about during the Westsail craze...?
> All FG


I think they are based on the Noah's Ark design  They float very well but sail not so great.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

What do you guys think? Price, design, condition? Sancerre 38 | Used Boats | RCR Yachts 
It's a somewhat rare boat, but from a great French designer, Philippe Harle. Centerboard can be considered a minus, but has a lot of features I like. Your input is always appreciated.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Interesting... appears to be a very 'rugged' boat and I think the CB setup may well open some options (eg Bahamas, etc) that might not otherwise be available.

Hard to tell from the pics, but everything looks a bit chopped-up layout-wise. I've seen the under-cockpit dinettes before; they can be tricky. I'd wonder about the seating comfort/legroom under the 'table' that is at least partially an engine compartment. The galley looks tight too with limited counterspace but, like the dinette, a personal visit would be needed to get a better sense..

She also looks like a lot of boat to be handled with a tiller and what appears to be an unbalanced rudder on the skeg.. I suspect she won't back up very well.

The forepeak storage area looks a bit rough, though the substantial frames are quite evident. It might be converted to a good owner's cabin..

Have you seen the boat in person?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks, Ron. Good points. I am considering a trip up north to see it in person before the winter, IF I can get the seller to lower the price enough (under $30K). My big worry is the engine, even as it is a good one on paper at least (Perkins 4108 with 2000 hours). Yes, tiller seems short for a boat that size, but if it was sailed like that on Great Lakes, it must be working fine. I prefer tiller boats anyway. I might make a second, longer tiller just in case.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Another thing I do not like is the flush deck forward hatch as a potential water ingress point, but again, it is all a balancing act and compromise.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The 4108 Perkins is a very reliable and rugged engine. And, it an easily be rebuilt, if necessary, quite inexpensively. My biggest concern is will you be able to handle this boat singlehanded.

Gary


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Gary, good point, but we are planning to have a crew of 3 on this journey. That is the only reason I'm considering bigger boats like that one.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I agree with Ron that it's difficult to make a judgment based on those pictures, but that sure is an interesting design.

I like centerboard boats, but two points that are probably already obvious: cast iron components need a lot of care and maintenance. The condition of the centerboard would be something I'd want to see in pictures before I took a trip to see the boat in person. I'm not sure I'd be happier if they had already done an epoxy job or not; ya never know what's underneath epoxy. I'd probably be happier if I could adjust the price to allow me to sandblast and epoxy the centerboard myself so I know it was done right.

And what's the deal with a cast iron centerboard trunk? I've never heard of that before. It's hard enough to deal with an iron centerboard. I have no idea how one might maintain the interior of something like that.

I'm enjoying your public boat hunt!


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

From what I know, cast iron CB trunks are very common on French boats. Yes, there is definitely an additional maintenance issue here. The rust inside can be wicked hard to remove, but the boat was on Great Lakes since 1983, and made it there all the way from France on it's own bottom. I also have a recent (May 2017) survey of this boat. Some issues that have to be addressed, but nothing truly damning. All in all, it boils down to money for me. If they come down on price below 30K, I will make the 8hr (one way) trip to see the boat with the intent to purchase.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

So are you going to make an actual offer below 30K, and only go to look if they accept the offer or otherwise come to agreement on a price?


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## CrispyCringle (Jul 30, 2017)

My comments on the Sancerre would be:

-Prior owner doesnt appear to be a very handy person. I to have been in the market for a larger boat for a while now. No rush for me. But the motor on this one looks like it has not been well maintained. Most of the ones I see have nearly spotless motors. That is a good indicator (to me anyway) that the previous owner probably worked on the motor, and presumably maintained it well. This one looks rode hard and put away wet. Also, the pic of the breaker panel next to the thermostat shows a shoddy installation. It appears to be a add on breaker panel and main. If that is how they do a simple panel mount, I would be concerned about how the wiring is tied in. None of those things are things that cant be fixed. But if you hire it out to be fixed it can get expensive. If you do it your self it is a different kind of pleasure to un-fuk someone else's poor work. Just something to factor in. 

-I love the lines of the boat. Salon looks nice as well. Like the wood. The tiller and the drop keel seem a little odd to me for a boat that size, but hey, its French. 

Have fun with your search!


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

mstern said:


> So are you going to make an actual offer below 30K, and only go to look if they accept the offer or otherwise come to agreement on a price?


Yes, I'm waiting for additional information from the broker, then I will make an offer (mostly depending on whether items indicated in the survey were fixed or not). On top of that, standing rigging on that boat has to be replaced, as well as chain plates. That is at least 8 grand. I would not pay more than 30 grand for that boat assuming all items identified in the survey were fixed (they were not terribly expensive to fix, including replacing one gate valve in the bilge area).


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Good luck Kriss!


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks  I can't afford to screw up on this


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

My only concern is that hull is one strange piece of yacht design. 

Jeff


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> My only concern is that hull is one strange piece of yacht design.
> 
> Jeff


In what way, Jeff? I thought it is a bit too shallow, and little light on ballast, likely making it quite tender.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

You found an interesting boat - I've never heard of that one.

My concern with it would be the four portlights that are below the deckline. 
Once you get on a heel, those will be underwater. I have seen these type leak more often than not, and I would worry about them getting broken while underway.

My opinion, but I don't care for ports in the hull for offshore boats.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Good point, Lazer. Thank you! I will think about that. I found out from broker that items identified in the survey were not fixed. Still, I kind of like the boat, so I submitted a tentative offer for $24,000. If they accept, I will go to see this boat later this month.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

You may have already found these but it gives another bit of info. Jeff I always like to hear your take on different designs and the trade offs for a given feature.

http://www.brainchildstudiosnyc.com/downloads/boat.pdf

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...ated/69627-sarabande-41-what-do-you-know.html


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks, Waterrat. Very useful. Yes, it looks like the same basic design. What is your take on the boat, as design and this particular boat?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Yet another, very tempting possibility... Alajuela 33 Sailboats for sale in Mexico


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

1981 C&C Landfall sailboat for sale in North Carolina


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

RegisteredUser said:


> 1981 C&C Landfall sailboat for sale in North Carolina


Yes, saw that. Cored hull, spade rudder... otherwise a very good sailing boat at a reasonable price.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

krisscross said:


> Yet another, very tempting possibility... Alajuela 33 Sailboats for sale in Mexico


Those are great boats. Very roomy design for a 33 also. Good offshore stuff.


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## CitySlicker (Sep 12, 2017)

First post and I'll be honest, as a complete newb I don't know if this matches your needs. It seems to have a well protected prop and keel. and not my boat, honest. 

arg.....can't post a link - go to Kijiji dot ca, search sailboat, roberts 34 and set the region to all of Ontario. 

48k CAD = 38K USD as a starting point. Sounds like the recent refit may have taken care of some work you might find on others. 

And I'll reiterate what was said above - Thanks for sharing your shopping journey details, it is quite informative.

Skylor


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Great looking boat, reasonable price. Thanks! https://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/oshawa-durham-region/roberts-34-misty-blue-ii-full-refit-blue-water-live-aboard/1282273294?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true and here: My Boat for Sale - Blue water cruising sailboat for sale
However, this is a home made boat, which adds variability in terms of quality of work and components, actual ballast weight, likelihood of blisters, and future resale value. If the boat was closer to me, I would definitely give it a serious look. This boat has been for sale quite a while. Seen it in couple of places last year, for quite a bit more money.


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## CitySlicker (Sep 12, 2017)

Ah, you've already seen it then. Thanks for the assessment on it, 

If it's still around in a few years and has been maintained I may take a look when I have the skills to captain it.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

krisscross said:


> Yes, saw that. Cored hull, spade rudder... otherwise a very good sailing boat at a reasonable price.


Cored hulls have more positives then negatives when well done. C&C knew what they were doing and if a survey shows no signs of water intrusion and you fix a leak early instead of years of neglect. In my eye you only gain in strength, insulation and stiffness.

I kind of like the Roberts 34 you posted. Based on their website she seems to be your most reasonably price of the bunch. The 48K Canadian is actually 39.5K US dollars. It is quite well outfitted and is located in a short sailing season, fresh water location which significantly reduces corrosion. Blisters will never be an issue it has 6 cotes of epoxy interprotect. Construction quality could be easily determined but most who can afford to construct a one off design don't usually buy junk. She really does look almost turn key ready. She even has the ground tackle. Throw some anti fouling on her and by the time you reach the ABC's or Trinidad you could replace the standing rigging do a bottom job add what you found to be missing and carry on. Most of the other craft you posted will take significantly more cash in refit. She reminds me of an S&S 34. The design is up to the task. The quality of build is easily inspected. The owner seems to be meticulous. It is surely worth a call.

My Boat for Sale - Blue water cruising sailboat for sale
Bruce Roberts 34 Boat Plan - Fine Line Boat Plans & Designs
Roberts 34 archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Good points. Waterrat, I will think about that. You think it is a better choice than Alajuela33 in Mexico I posted earlier? When does the sailing season start over there? I have to keep that in mind as well.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

That Roberts 34 looks to be one of those rare 'homebuilt' boats that was done right and kept up very nicely.

I'm not a fan of the bulky console/table in the cockpit, but that's a feature of many of the newer boats these days... and for offshore work it does reduce the water volume.

The joinery looks quite well done below as well..


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

CitySlicker said:


> Ah, you've already seen it then. Thanks for the assessment on it,
> 
> If it's still around in a few years and has been maintained I may take a look when I have the skills to captain it.


For what its worth, that is not a particularly great design and its at a very high asking price for a Roberts 34. There has clearly been a lot of heart poured into that boat, but there are also the kinds of dangerous details that you sometimes see on an amateur build such as the Paloma style water heater. There are some really wonderful boats out there for that kind of money. This is not one of them.

Jeff


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

krisscross said:


> Good points. Waterrat, I will think about that. You think it is a better choice than Alajuela33 in Mexico I posted earlier? When does the sailing season start over there? I have to keep that in mind as well.


Season is generally mid to late may through Mid September. I do think it is a better deal then the Alajuela. Jeff H has a significantly more knowledgeable response on sailing abilities of the Roberts 34 but I bet it would still probably sail circles around the Alajuela.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Well here is something more your taste. 1985 Bluewater Ingrid Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Now what I would look at would be CS 36, Tartan 37C, Bristol 35.5, and if those are all too much I would look at the Tartan 34C or a Sabre 34. I am not super sold on the full keel heavy stuff. Weight is not usually good in a sailboat.


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## Deina (Aug 28, 2017)

Waterrat said:


> Well here is something more your taste. 1985 Bluewater Ingrid Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


That is a *nice* Ingrid! I just don't want to be next-to-last into port every time, 

:cut_out_animated_em


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

That Ingrid is one heavy girl... I would be OK with CS 36 (traditional), Tartan 37C, or Bristol 35.5, if I could find one I can afford, even as I don't think CB boats are a good fit for crossing oceans. Even the Tartan 34C is very much on my list, especially if they come with tiller steering and updated engine. I still have time till next May to find something that will 'speak to me'. In the last one and a half years I only saw 2 boats that I really, really wanted bad: a Nautor Swan 36 and Gale Force 34. I did not buy them because I procrastinated too much. And they were both in good shape and I could afford them. I truly regret not buying one of them. I'm hoping I will get another chance at a boat like that. Third time is a charm!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

krisscross said:


> Good point, Lazer. Thank you! I will think about that. I found out from broker that items identified in the survey were not fixed. Still, I kind of like the boat, so I submitted a tentative offer for $24,000. If they accept, I will go to see this boat later this month.


What happened with your offer?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Have not heard from them yet.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Had a psc34 for a few years. An absolutely wonderful seaboat and quite easy to single. We saw squalls and gales in her but never a storm. Still think she’d be fine. Issue is for a 34’ boat she is very small.
Also had a a south hants England (SHE 36). Originally set up for ocean racing but we made her a cruiser. She was remarkably fast with a great motion and I did see a storm in her and she did fine. We did several Bermuda’s in her without any issues. 
The 34’ channel cutter. It was the last thing Hess drew and perhaps his best boat. If I had the time to chase the upkeep it would be on my list for a rtw.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

That Sancerre was an interesting boat.

Owner bought her 5/16 for 25k and sold her 11/17 for 32k


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

sailpower said:


> That Sancerre was an interesting boat.
> 
> Owner bought her 5/16 for 25k and sold her 11/17 for 32k


I would say the seller got really lucky. That boat needed a lot of work but yes, I liked the design.


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## krw (Mar 26, 2018)

Hi Kriss; 
Another longtime lurker of the Sailnet boards here, just recently registered officially. First let me say thank you for sharing your search with all of us. It is an education in itself. Also, thank you to all the excellent feedback and knowledge shared by the community. You folks are awesome.
I am very interested in your search and how it ultimately turns out, as your initial boat criteria are very close to my own. I will admit right off I am one of those romantically influenced design sailors. I love the lines on the older double enders w/ full keel and a tiller. My one overriding principal is simplicity. My experience has been the more complex a system is the more brittle they are, and so more prone to failure.
Please keep up the posts, really looking forward to see what vessel you end up with.
Just out of curiosity; I haven't seen many of the old heavy boats mentioned in your search, i.e.; Westsail, Weatherly, Roughwater, Southerncross, (did see Baba). Have they been discounted for some reason?
Thanks again, and best wishes in your continuing search!


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## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

latest issue of Cruising World lists 10 boats for under $50k. You might find a copy or go on line. here's the list:
Sabre 28
Cape Dory 30
Island Packet 31
Gulf 32
Islander 36
Endeavour 37
Tayana 37
Tartan 37
C&C Landfall 38
Bristol 40

Personally a 32 seems a little small for spending much time on. We moved up to an offshore boat 6 years ago and decided 36-40 was the right size for living on and single or double handing, at least for us. Ended up finding our Valiant 39 which is essentially a 36 with a sprit. We're quite happy and only occasionally have felt larger would be better for one reason or another but have never thought smaller would be better.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

dadio917 said:


> latest issue of Cruising World lists 10 boats for under $50k. You might find a copy or go on line. here's the list:
> Sabre 28
> Cape Dory 30
> Island Packet 31
> ...


That is one strange list of boats I don't understand where Cruising World came up with that list. This is such a weird collection of disassociated choices. It is almost like they put up a list of every boat that can be bought for$50 K, hung the list on the wall, donned a blind fold and tossed a dozen darts at the list. Two darts missed the list entirely so they only listed the remaining 10.

Arguably, only the Tayana 37 would make my list as a boat intended for distance voyaging. The Islander 36, Tartan 37 or Landfall are a mediocre choice, but could work if the distances were not too extreme.

My mom had an Endeavour 37. That boat had one of the worst motions of any boat that I ever sailed. While the motion comfort deficit and poor build quality would make it a poor choice for offshore work,it's lackluster sailing ability, makes it a poor choice for coastal cruising. Surely they are not suggesting the Endeavour 37 based on experience.

The Gulf 32 wasn't even a sailboat. It was a very shippy looking motorsailor.

The Cape Dory 28 is one of Carl Alberg's more cruise worthy designs, one which might make a decent single-hander for someone who wanted to go very simple and didn't care about performance or ease of handling.

The Sabre 28's were one of the nicest boats of it's size and era, but would be a very small boat to take distance cruising.

On a separate topic, just for the record, the Valiant 39 is an adaptation of the Esprit 37 (nee Valiant 37). I don't believe there was a Valiant 36. The Esprit 37 is one of my favorite heavier displacement cruisers of that era and the , Valiant 39 was the Esprit with whip cream and the cherry on top, with better build quality thrown in for good measure. That should be a great boat.

Jeff


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## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

oops...brain fart re our boat....i meant 37' hull. Thanks for the correction. Yes, our V39 is a really great boat. Have not crossed an Ocean yet but have had her up the west coast into Canada and down as far as Monterey CA. Lived on her quite a bit. Almost done getting her ready to go out again. She almost sails herself and is quite comfortable for two. A little heavier and taller than the Esprit and laid out differently with hardly any wood topsides and below an aft head but basically the same hull. Surprising to me only 7 made. Best thing about the boat is my wife loves her. 

I think i wrote 36 because i was thinking of another boat that i did cross an ocean on (New Zealand to Hawaii). I wasn't going to mention it but here goes.....Cascade 36. These aren't really 36's as with the sprit LOA is 39. She was comfortable and moved us along just fine. Kit boat out of Portland. i think a Cascade 36 even won the transpac back in 2006 i think. Can be had for a song. because they were a kit boat some are definitely better than others.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

We have quite a few Cascade 36's in our club, and many have tens of thousands of sea miles on them. I have done one heavy air delivery on one down the West coast and they are both fast and have a comfortable sea motion. I have seen them referred to as "the affordable circumnavigator".
Some will have the bow sprit and some not, so LOA varies a bit. 
Another solid cruising boat is the Bruce King-designed Ericson 36C, from the late 70's. Or, for a more modern style, find an Ericson 35 or 38.
Happy shopping.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thank you all for your help and suggestions. Very valuable back and forth discussion. I have delayed my boat purchase for at least 6 months as I am crewing on a boat sailing from New Orleans to India at the end of May. It is a 54' steel ketch of Bruce Roberts design. Once I'm back from that trip I will be getting my own boat for long distance sailing. My criteria have not changed (yet), and neither has my budget, so the thread is very much valid for me.


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## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

olson34 said:


> We have quite a few Cascade 36's in our club, and many have tens of thousands of sea miles on them. I have done one heavy air delivery on one down the West coast and they are both fast and have a comfortable sea motion. I have seen them referred to as "the affordable circumnavigator".
> Some will have the bow sprit and some not, so LOA varies a bit.
> Another solid cruising boat is the Bruce King-designed Ericson 36C, from the late 70's. Or, for a more modern style, find an Ericson 35 or 38.
> Happy shopping.


ahhh...rcyc....know it well...been to the Beacon Rock sail out a few times. I crewed on Ursa.


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