# Critique This Cockpit



## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

What do you like? Don't like? Would change? Would keep?









Bonus question: What boat this is from?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Love the outboard helm seats.. but would like to see some strategic foot rests inboard. Like the large wheel (without needing a trough).. decent lounging seating forward, not so great across the back with the contoured sections for sitting when heeled - but I'd pretty well always be in the seat pods.

Also like the aft winches being accessible to the helmsperson. Personally I'd order it without the teak.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Except for the coaming seats and the arched helm seat it's virtually identical to the cockpit in my old Columbia 43. 

Works very well and is very comfortable.


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

Same basic set up as my 37c . Oversize wheel, I sit on a teak board instead of the curved seat My autopilot control is in the same place only on port. I dont like it there to easy to butt dial course changes. Nice layout gives options for seating.


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## saillife (Jun 25, 2006)

Not a fan of the arch in the seat (my boat is like this) would prefer a flat seat. Also would like a smaller wheel. Getting around the wheel will be a pain when at anchor/dock.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Like the port/starboard helmsman seats... wheel is big (good), wheel is fixed (bad)... folding wheel (retrofit)would make that better, making it easier to get around when you are anchored. Under sail, that large wheel is nice.

Seat backs are too vertical as said, but very large (good)... I LOVE the teak look, but would personally hate the teak work. 

Overall a very classy layout.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Depends on its use. Is this for partying, chesapeake bay, coastal, blue water. 
Where are the scuppers to drain the water? How low is the sill leading to he cabin?
Ultimately for me any concern I have is only about safety. 1000 people will have 1000 preferences on what they want like or don't want. I don't see the point, that's the way the builders have built it. If they way they have built it is and it is deemed unsafe, then I would not buy the boat. Safety first.

Secondly, I have been reading posts in many threads ridiculing what people are finding important at the boat shows as being superficial not looking t the true guts of the boat. Isn't that what we are doing here with a small view of snap shot of a center cockpit sailboat which looks pricy. 

Thirdly, who cares if the winches are not made for single handing if you don't singlehand. 

Lastly, as was previously said a boat must have a wow factor to the buyer or a personal feeling, chi I think is was you called it. When I bought my boat it did for me. I still feel it when we are out on her. I beleive that chi is a one person feeling or karma. If it doesn't do it or you, enough said. If you can modify the cockpit to fit your liking for its use do it. If not then move on. If you are experienced have someone custom build you boat to all your important requirements.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> What do you like? Don't like? Would change? Would keep?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty nice, but it's missing a traveler and mainsheet, so the helmsman can sail the boat...

That engine control is in a really bad spot, should be tucked away somewhere outboard, or at least have an easily removeable lever. (Doesn't look like the type, however) And, there's no bridgedeck, you'd need to configure some stout replacement to prevent the possibility of downflooding if the boat is gonna go places... Emergency tiller is gonna be pretty short, no surprise there...

That teak shouldn't require nearly the amount of maintenance many people fear... Let it go silver, and treat it regularly with a 30% bleach solution, that's all it takes...

Looks like an Alden to me... If so, she'd likely be so beautifully balanced, you might be able to get rid of that damn wheel, and go with a "proper" tiller... (grin)


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Not enough drinks holders and there'd better be an ice box hidden under one of them seats


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I don't particularly like the formed seats. I like to sit and steer from the leeward side when beating..If I'm in that seat, there's nothing between me and the lifelines..

You can walk forward from behind the wheel without having to step up and stand on the cockpit seats, particularly on the starboard side where the throttle is.

I don't like the instrument location on the starboard side of the helmsmans seat, it would be right where I like to put my back when I sit in the cockpit ( But that could easily be relocated) 

I can't make out what those two stainless steel protrusions are on the starboard side of the passenger seat but they are going to bite someone.


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## midnightsailor (May 23, 2003)

Looks like an Alden to me also. And it looks very tight getting around from the wheel, but do like the clamshell seats on the coamings.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Tempest said:


> I can't make out what those two stainless steel protrusions are on the starboard side of the passenger seat but they are going to bite someone.


I think they are hinges for the seat locker.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Are the seats long enough to lie down and nap on? This is, in my opinion, an essential feature of a cockpit. The coamings don't look very high to sit comfortably, but it's hard to really judge that from a photo. On a cruising boat you spend a lot of time in the cockpit so it's important to have comfortable seating (deep, angled coaming), a large table for dining and wide, long seats that you can nap on.


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

Agree with midnightsailor. I vote for Alden.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

The engine monitors are not visible from the helm. 
No mainsheet control, or traveler from the helm. 

On a monohull the wide open cockpit sole means that folks have no foot support when heeled. Those deep seats are great for sleeping on, but not when heeled as people less than 6 feet tall will slide off down slope.

There aren't many hand holds for a single handed helmsman to move forward either.

The funky sloped side of the helm seats don't thrill me at all - no back on it so a slip of grip or an errant gust/wave sends you into a lifeline/overboard. 

It looks (based on shadows) like there is a coaming between the seat back and the winch, so at least for the forward winch which is unreachable from the previously mentioned funky seat you'd be on your knees winching it. At serious heel you'd be literally hanging on by a winch handle while leaning into a wave face. 

The autopilot control head is on the port side wall of the helm area - should be centered. If you are on AP and take a broach while sitting to starboard side you are SOL to getting quick control of the helm. 

Julie, you are talking a live aboard - so an enclosure is a must. Picture one on this boat that encloses the winches, those funky seats etc. Picture it as seriously cu$tom and very awkward.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

JulieMor said:


> What do you like? Don't like? Would change? Would keep?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would be curious to know the size of the boat. It looks like an awfully cramped cockpit on a (I'm guessing) 35+ foot boat. It looks like it is smaller than it needs to be, but it is hard to tell without the picture zoomed back a little bit. Do you need that rail going all the way around the cockpit? Are you really going to walk around on it? Personally, I think I'd rather have the cockpit space.

Then there's that huge wheel. Nice when sailing, but not worth it for the awkwardness it presents when not sailing. Honestly, does not look like more room than on my 26' boat.


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## meteuz (May 13, 2010)

Coaming seats? I thought they were cockpit overflow sluiceways!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

copacabana said:


> Are the seats long enough to lie down and nap on? This is, in my opinion, an essential feature of a cockpit. The coamings don't look very high to sit comfortably, but it's hard to really judge that from a photo. On a cruising boat you spend a lot of time in the cockpit so it's important to have comfortable seating (deep, angled coaming), a large table for dining and wide, long seats that you can nap on.


Yes, that's one advantage to a tiller on anything less than 40', a T-shaped cockpit can really take a bite out of the seat length... In this case, however, the seats look just long enough for most people to stretch out on...



caberg said:


> I would be curious to know the size of the boat. It looks like an awfully cramped cockpit on a (I'm guessing) 35+ foot boat. It looks like it is smaller than it needs to be, but it is hard to tell without the picture zoomed back a little bit. Do you need that rail going all the way around the cockpit? Are you really going to walk around on it? Personally, I think I'd rather have the cockpit space.
> 
> Then there's that huge wheel. Nice when sailing, but not worth it for the awkwardness it presents when not sailing. Honestly, does not look like more room than on my 26' boat.


I'm guessing it's an Alden 45... That cockpit is meant to go offshore, and the coaming serves to inhibit the likelihood of getting pooped, or water running aft on deck from getting into the cockpit. I like the coaming cutouts, far more comfortable and secure than perching on top of a wider coaming, as is customary on so many boats...

An oversized wheel like that is not necessarily as problematic as it might seem, it can easily be removed when not sailing and stowed against the stern rail... The main problem with such wheels is simply getting around them, of course. I can't help but wonder whether the oversize wheel on his J-46 CIELITA was a contributing factor to the loss of Ned Cabot off Newfoundland last month, having to step up out of the cockpit to get around the wheel momentarily places a helmsman in an extremely vulnerable position... Just one more argument in favor of a tiller, but no one wants to hear about tillers anymore (grin)












chucklesR said:


> The engine monitors are not visible from the helm.
> 
> The autopilot control head is on the port side wall of the helm area - should be centered. If you are on AP and take a broach while sitting to starboard side you are SOL to getting quick control of the helm.


Looks to me like the engine control panel is down low on the port side, and the autopilot control is on the inside of the coaming to starboard behind the helm... Not a good spot for either, IMHO...

Always a challenge to locate an engine control panel in a cockpit, but I hate to see them placed low like that, sooner or later they're gonna be underwater. Gauges are one thing, but I don't even think an ignition key should be located in the cockpit, I think below inside the companionway is a far better location - way too many things can go wrong with ignition keys exposed to the elements in a cockpit...



chucklesR said:


> Julie, you are talking a live aboard - so an enclosure is a must. Picture one on this boat that encloses the winches, those funky seats etc. Picture it as seriously cu$tom and very awkward.


Uh-oh, don't get me started on enclosures - they're meant for boats other than that one... Putting an oxygen tent on an Alden 45 would be akin to drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa... (grin)


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

not enough room for elctronics on the helm. steering wheel looks to big to get around comfortably. looks like it will need mroe then 1 person to sail. maybe even more.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Faster said:


> Love the outboard helm seats.. but would like to see some strategic foot rests inboard. Like the large wheel (without needing a trough).. decent lounging seating forward, not so great across the back with the contoured sections for sitting when heeled - but I'd pretty well always be in the seat pods.
> 
> Also like the aft winches being accessible to the helmsperson. Personally I'd order it without the teak.


Agree with Faster.

Minimal 'clutter' on the binacle and in the cockpit - yes!
Id prefer the primary winches to be a bit further aft for easier and more convenient use by a singlehanding helmsman (_sitting_ AT the wheel).

Also I always prefer mainsheet traveller controls (lines and cleats) in strategic reach of the helmsman. This config. will REQUIRE an assistant to sail the boat to 'play'/'dump' the traveller in gusty conditions. If that traveller is coachroof mounted, there is no place to locate cam cleats and control line extensions near the helm. The singlehanding helmsman will be leaving the helm and walking back and forth, etc. in this config. in 'lively' conditions.

That BIG wheel is nice but somewhat blocks access forward by the helmsman to get to any coachroof sail, etc. controls - the helmsman will have to step up 'onto' the seats to go forward.

Those side helm seats ..... Im actively drooling!

I prefer teak in the cockpit for best wet traction.

That 'helm seat' will need a 'cushion', unless you dont mind sitting on hinges and that emerg. rudder stock deck plate. Hinges would better be served if mortised and 'sunken flat' of flush with helm seat surface. Ditto that deck plate.

May be hidden in the pic, but I dont see 'multiple' / large cockpit drains - obviously this is a blue water config. Without large/multiple cockpit drains, this high coaming 'tub' cockpit may take a long time to drain when filled with water. 
I also dont see a bridgedeck to lessen/minimize downflooding into the companionway - if so, you have to depend on companionway strength and companionway 'door' strength.

I like it; generally 'clean' and free of 'crap' to get tangled on.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

> Uh-oh, don't get me started on enclosures - they're meant for boats other than that one... Putting an oxygen tent on an Alden 45 would be akin to drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa... (grin)


So Alden 45 owners, having spent 500 - 800k are inherently waterproof or just plain too tough or too stupid to get in out of the rain and cold/heat and sun?


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Don't like the lack of a chartplotter and depth at the helm. I agree sheets/winches should be further aft. Helmsmans seats outboard look gimicky.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Needs a joystick ;-)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chucklesR said:


> So Alden 45 owners, having spent 500 - 800k are inherently waterproof or just plain too tough or too stupid to get in out of the rain and cold/heat and sun?


Well, I won't presume to speak for any of the lucky owners of Aldens, but if I were ever to own such a beauty, I'd be loathe to spoil her aesthetics with something like a cockpit enclosure... And, I'd certainly be a bit hesitant to brand anyone as "stupid" for their reluctance to do so... (grin)










I realize I'm a dying breed, but I still prefer to do my sailing outdoors... Besides, there are still various options for those seeking protection from the elements, without having to resort to complete isolation from them... A bimini alone can afford a great deal of protection. And, even the simple enclosure of the cockpit from the lifelines down with weathercloths can offer an amazing degree of additional comfort...










One other method that has stood the test of time, is the appropriate use of something known as "clothing"...

Or another, decidedly more effective, is to make the switch to something known as a "trawler"... (grin)


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

WOW! The responses have been better than expected! If I were a boat builder or designer, I would take critiquing like this and use it to better my boats. So much thought put down here! You made me really take a hard look at what, on first look, just looked like a beautiful cockpit to me.

For those of you who guessed Alden, you're right. It's a 2002 Alden 43. The photo first caught my eye with the outboard seats. I tried to imagine being at the helm and sitting in them. They looked practical and comfortable.

Now that you got me thinking...

The auxiliary controls on the starboard side of the pedestal has a funnel-like extension under it leading to a stainless steel tube that looks like it runs through the deck. This setup pretty much eliminates any stepping room to starboard around the wheel. You'd have to step on the seat to enter or exit to starboard. The location of those controls would also eliminate mounting any instruments there. I don't know why such a large control was necessary for the auxiliary.

I love the look of the teak but I'm into low maintenance. I don't mind applying a finish so much as I mind removing it, sanding the wood, etc before applying the finish.

The aft seat lockers would be a little hard to access, considering one would be open and possibly block access from the other side, meaning you would have to be standing at one side or the other of the wheel to access it. 

There's not much else I could add to what's been said here except to say to the designers and builders, "If you aren't tapping the wealth of knowledge that exists here, you're denying yourself a great opportunity to build a better boat."


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> I love the look of the teak but I'm into low maintenance. I don't mind applying a finish so much as I mind removing it, sanding the wood, etc before applying the finish.


No reason whatsoever to "finish" any of the surface teak in that cockpit, in fact using any of the multitudes of Snake Oil Teak "Treatments" out there would be a big mistake... Any teak surface that will be stepped on should be left natural, period... The use of oil or anything else only serves to diminish teak's qualities as a non-skid material, in addition to opening up a can of worms regarding maintenance...

Don't take my word for it, but rather Rebecca Wittman's:

"Taking care of teak and other marine links."


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

No need to check the link Jon. Your words are music to my ears. 

I avoided sealing my back deck for decades. When it was about 22 years old I thought sealing it would give it some life. Within three months the sealant started peeling. It looked worse than it ever did. When we considered selling the house, we knew we would have to replace the decking. Stripping and sanding the old wood didn't seem worth it.

I'm a firm believer in natural so long as it will take the weather.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

chucklesR said:


> So Alden 45 owners, having spent 500 - 800k are inherently waterproof or just plain too tough or too stupid to get in out of the rain and cold/heat and sun?


Naw they just spend another 500 to 800 on some really good foulies! 

Now I could see a Bimini to keep away the cancer causing sun, but that would be my limit.

Those helm seats I am not sold on. For some reason they kind of look like toilet seats to me. If they were just a bit longer they might eliminate the need for a head below!


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Julie solved the quiz by revealing it as a 2002 Alden. No doubt there has been some evolution to this this cockpit plan or the newer rendition in the past decade. Great input form all points. The first change I would make is putting myself at the helm From there, with ample funds, trades and skills, the rest would be accomplished.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Needs cushions, bimini and moved to the back of the boat.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Too much of that teak foolishness. Someday you will be able to wash it overboard with a hose, after many years of deck leaks and high maintenance.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

rugosa said:


> Julie solved the quiz by revealing it as a 2002 Alden. No doubt there has been some evolution to this this cockpit plan or the newer rendition in the past decade.


Not very likely, I'm afraid... Alden only built a handful of sailboats after 2002, and only one of the 43/45 series, I believe...



Seaduction said:


> Needs cushions, bimini and moved to the back of the boat.


Uhh, how much further aft would you want it? (grin)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> What do you like? Don't like? Would change? Would keep?


I really do not like those seats. Maybe they are comfortable, but to me, they don't belong on a sailboat. If one wants to be comfortable in a form fitting seat, stay at home on the couch.

Kinda like why Ferrari does not put drink holders in their cars: Ferrari's are for driving, not drinking in.

But when I first saw those seats I thought they looked like potty seats, then the thought occured, I could install a scupper in the middle of the seats and have his and hers potties when 3 miles off shore. Beats fixing and cleaning the head, or using a bucket.


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

This looks more like a hot tub than a sailboat..Dale


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> Too much of that teak foolishness. Someday you will be able to wash it overboard with a hose, after many years of deck leaks and high maintenance.


I'd bet anything an Alden of that vintage laid their teak decking without the use of screws, so deck leaks would not be an issue... And, with pretty minimal and basic maintenance, I'd be confident they'd outlast me by a considerable margin...



casey1999 said:


> I really do not like those seats. Maybe they are comfortable, but to me, they don't belong on a sailboat. If one wants to be comfortable in a form fitting seat, stay at home on the couch.
> 
> Kinda like why Ferrari does not put drink holders in their cars: Ferrari's are for driving, not drinking in.


Well, I suppose you could always insert something like a narrow length of angle iron across the top of those cutouts, if that would make you feel better... (grin) Perhaps it's just me, but I'd imagine I could get quite used to helming from one of those very easily...

Likening such functionality to a living room couch seems a bit silly, to me... IMHO, providing a comfortable position for a helmsman is a safety issue of paramount importance... Few things are worse than having to drive a boat for a prolonged period from an awkward or uncomfortable position, it's a major contributor to fatigue, etc... I really can't imagine the logic for arguing against such security or "comfort" in a cockpit, there are few things more annoying - or indeed dangerous - over time than less than suitable cockpit ergonomics...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Lake Superior Sailor said:


> This looks more like a hot tub than a sailboat..Dale


Nah, not even close...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Nah, not even close...


I thought we had settled on bimbo pads.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> I really do not like those seats. Maybe they are comfortable, but to me, they don't belong on a sailboat. If one wants to be comfortable in a form fitting seat, stay at home on the couch.


Since the alternative is having ones butt on the coaming, particularly that skinny one, I'd take those form fitters in a heartbeat.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> I'd bet anything an Alden of that vintage laid their teak decking without the use of screws, so deck leaks would not be an issue... And, with pretty minimal and basic maintenance, I'd be confident they'd outlast me by a considerable margin...
> 
> Well, I suppose you could always insert something like a narrow length of angle iron across the top of those cutouts, if that would make you feel better... (grin) Perhaps it's just me, but I'd imagine I could get quite used to helming from one of those very easily...
> 
> Likening such functionality to a living room couch seems a bit silly, to me... IMHO, providing a comfortable position for a helmsman is a safety issue of paramount importance... Few things are worse than having to drive a boat for a prolonged period from an awkward or uncomfortable position, it's a major contributor to fatigue, etc... I really can't imagine the logic for arguing against such security or "comfort" in a cockpit, there are few things more annoying - or indeed dangerous - over time than less than suitable cockpit ergonomics...


I thought most of these high end boats have auto pilot so where you sit is not so much of an issue.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> I thought most of these high end boats have auto pilot so where you sit is not so much of an issue.


Yeah, but strange as it may seem, some folks actually enjoy steering their boats... (grin) And some even go so far as to prefer to sit in a spot where they can see the jib telltales while doing so...

Autopilots are great, but they won't necessarily handle any and all conditions... Like this day in the Gulf Stream east of Hatteras in December, for example... A 2 hour stint wore out even an animal like my buddy Glenn on this ride...










And, last but not least, autopilots have been known to crap out, on occasion...


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Yes, the fact that everything fails eventually is why redundancy is so important when you're out on the water, even if that redundancy comes in human form. From what I can tell, it looks like that black panel with the handle to starboard is a bilge hand pump.

The last working element on a boat before it sinks is a human.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> Yes, the fact that everything fails eventually is why redundancy is so important when you're out on the water, even if that redundancy comes in human form. From what I can tell, it looks like that black panel with the handle to starboard is a bilge hand pump.


Guaranteed there would be a manual bilge pump in the cockpit of an Alden, but that's not it...

That looks like a hydraulic control panel, for either the backstay or vang...


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

I find it hilarious that so many people are slagging the cockpit of an Alden. Reading some of the comments it sounds like the perfect cockpit is to be found on a Hunter!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Yes the black panel loks like hydraulic backstay adjuster. Manual bilge pumps I have seen, and which we have is usually a billows, hole in the center to put a removable pump handle in with a bracket surrounding it.

Dave


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

cockpits are not only used to steer the boat but to live on the outside of the boat, while sailing or on anchor and in a marina. Regarding that particular that cockpit is very small if we compare what a 42/43 modern sailboat has to offer.

It does not provide also a good access to the water (for having a bath) or to go out of the boat in a marina when there is no lateral pontoons.

The access from the steering wheel to the forward winches is difficult. A smaller wheel would not be a solution because that would make impossible to steer the boat from the side of the cockpit, were those formed seats are. That is the best position to steer the boat seated but, as others have said, those seats are a bad idea, limiting the positions you can have comparing with a full lateral bench to sit.

The angles on the back bench are also a bad idea (as others have said) limiting the positions for steering the boat from there.

The space that is offered to steer standing is also very limited for a 42/43 boat. That back bench is too close to the wheel for a big guy like me to steer comfortably on foot.

Regarding security I don't see the places to fix the harness line.

Regards

Paulo


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Yeah, but strange as it may seem, some folks actually enjoy steering their boats... (grin) And some even go so far as to prefer to sit in a spot where they can see the jib telltales while doing so...
> 
> Autopilots are great, but they won't necessarily handle any and all conditions... Like this day in the Gulf Stream east of Hatteras in December, for example... A 2 hour stint wore out even an animal like my buddy Glenn on this ride...
> 
> ...


Yes, and those silly seats would have not made things easier for you based on the pic you provided. You need to be standing to steer in those conditions. Sailors have sailed for hundreds of years without formed seats like those, I think we can continue to do so.

The other thing I don't like about these rounded and formed seating now on boats, they make the risk of a sprained or broken ankle much greater, especially in rough conditions where you may not have much choice in where to step.

A wind vane should be able to handle the above conditions, would it not?


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Guaranteed there would be a manual bilge pump in the cockpit of an Alden, but that's not it...
> 
> That looks like a hydraulic control panel, for either the backstay or vang...


I zoomed in on it and I think I see "Navtec" on the plate.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Ninefingers said:


> I find it hilarious that so many people are slagging the cockpit of an Alden. Reading some of the comments it sounds like the perfect cockpit is to be found on a Hunter!


I guess it depends on what you want to do with the boat. OK, so this is not a Hunter, but another 45' production boat.










I know the Alden has some very desirable features in terms of quality, but it's not too hard to see why some people would prefer the above cockpit for functional purposes.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

No formed seats on this Swan and the crew seems to be doing fine. Although I do not like the open stern (seems objects, pets and people could be lost out the back), but I guess it does drain water well.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

caberg said:


> I guess it depends on what you want to do with the boat. OK, so this is not a Hunter, but another 45' production boat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I certainly would.


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## b40Ibis (Apr 27, 2011)

Where are the buttons for the winches?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

The modern twin wheeled open stern cockpit seems to have an awful lot going for it methinks though some of them do seem to take the open stern business a tadge too far. Otoh, any sort of serious cockpit enclosure would create an awful lot of windage though in fairness Sequitur's enclosure was huge and didn't seem to cause those guys any problems. 
Our enclosure is to my mind a bit of a worry as well but we've been through a bit and again have had no major problems, though most of the time we sail with the thing folded away. (Takes a couple of minutes, dead easy to do.)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Yes, and those silly seats would have not made things easier for you based on the pic you provided. You need to be standing to steer in those conditions. Sailors have sailed for hundreds of years without formed seats like those, I think we can continue to do so.


Of course they wouldn't have... I was talking about the 75% or more of the time a helmsman might choose to steer the boat in more moderate conditions when seated, or perhaps when standing watch at night, for example, when sitting comfortably outboard can afford a less obstructed view around stuff like the dodger, mast, liferaft mounted on the coachroof, whatever...

Gotta admit, I'm a bit perplexed at the somewhat strenuous objection to those cutouts from some here. They're nearly not as visually objectionable as the photo might appear to indicate, to my eye. Last time I was aboard an Alden 45 was at the Annapolis show 5 or 6 years ago, spent a fair amount of time chatting with the broker David Walters... Everyone who came aboard during that time thought they were very cool, just the sort of attention to detail and something special and unique that has always elevated a builder like Alden or Hinckley above the rest... I'm pretty sure they would have been highlighted by Ferenc Mate' in his chapter on Alden in his first edition of THE WORLD'S BEST SAILBOATS... But, to each his own, I suppose...



casey1999 said:


> A wind vane should be able to handle the above conditions, would it not?


Mine would have handled my boat, but certainly not that Trintella 50, especially the way we were sailing her... that boat has a huge rig with a big main, and we were pushing it a bit to exit the Stream before nightfall, and more importantly before the breeze went N-NE... But even in more moderate conditions, a vane would be pressed hard to steer that boat, autopilot would be the way to go...



casey1999 said:


> No formed seats on this Swan and the crew seems to be doing fine. Although I do not like the open stern (seems objects, pets and people could be lost out the back), but I guess it does drain water well.


Sorry, but I fail to see the point of such an apples to oranges comparison., and boats designed for entirely different purposes... You have noticed that Swan has twin wheels, located adjacent to a nice wide deck to sit upon, right?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Sorry, but I fail to see the point of such an apples to oranges comparison., and boats designed for entirely different purposes... You have noticed that Swan has twin wheels, located adjacent to a nice wide deck to sit upon, right?


Yes, noticed, but never seen any formed seats on any Swan, and crew seems be comfortable.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

caberg said:


> I guess it depends on what you want to do with the boat. OK, so this is not a Hunter, but another 45' production boat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, that would depend upon what one's particular "functional purpose" was, of course...

No question, lounging around such a cockpit at anchor or dockside, entertaining a group of guests, or pleasant daysails and coastal cruising in the sort of conditions pictured, such a cockpit would work very nicely...

Offshore, however, could be a whole different ballgame... Such a cockpit has many less than desirable attributes, and in heavy weather, I would consider it downright dangerous... Almost identical to the cockpit of RULE 62, lost in the Caribbean 1500 a couple of years ago - and it's always been my hunch that the characteristics of that boat and design of features like the cockpit likely contributed heavily to the seasickness and exhaustion the crew ultimately fell victim to...

It's no accident that a Hinckley 42 (could have just as well been that Alden) wound up on the cover of DESIRABLE & UNDESIRABLE CHARACTERISTICS OF OFFSHORE YACHTS... no matter how many subsequent editions of that book might be printed, I can assure you a boat like that Jeanneau ain't gonna make it as the Cover Girl... (grin)


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> I'm pretty sure they would have been highlighted by Ferenc Mate' in his chapter on Alden in his first edition of THE WORLD'S BEST SAILBOATS...


That photo was from his second edition. Good call!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I'm not at all sure how much of the anti big cockpit thing is simply resistance to the new. In the case of that Jeanneau the centre consul table affair seems to at least reduce the huge distance across the cockpit and in effect turn it into two parallel cockpits though the distance from the forward end of the table to the companionway seems a longish hike. 

Twin wheels I like and in the case of the Jeanneau it is at least not completely open across the stern as is e.g. late model Hanses. 

As for the Alden, I like the little moulded seats and though I take the point re the engine controls a folding wheel would take care of access problems around the wheel itself. We are going to do a folding wheel on the Womboat and may well take the opportunity to go one size larger in diameter. 

Oh yes, and we have fold up seats that join the fore and aft cockpit seats with the athwart seat. Perfect for stretching out on.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

tdw said:


> I'm not at sure how much of the anti big cockpit thing is simply resistance to the new. In the case of that Jeanneau the centre consul table affair seems to at least reduce the huge distance across the cockpit and in effect turn it into two parallel cockpits though the distance from the forward end of the table to the companionway seems a longish hike.


I agree. The ones I've been on have been just fine - people don't have to shuffle around to man the winches or change the helm, toes don't get stepped on, shins don't get bashed (at least not as much). No cockpit drains is a BIG plus IMHO as are grab bars on the center tables.



> As for the Alden, I like the little moulded seats and though I take the point re the engine controls a folding wheel would take care of access problems around the wheel itself.


Whatever happened to the little "thumb paddle" throttle & shift controls on either side of the pedestal? I thought they were much better than stick shifts that snag lines and generally get in the way.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Our last boat was a Choate 40, a Kaufman design from the 80s with a big wheel and actually a pretty decent cockpit for an old IOR race boat.

When beating we sat astride the wheel for visibility and sight lines for waves and telltales, and the A frame wheel supports were perfect foot rests (our son shown driving her below)

This is why I think those contoured seats are a great idea..


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

caberg said:


> I guess it depends on what you want to do with the boat. OK, so this is not a Hunter, but another 45' production boat.


I think that boat is gorgeous - one of the best looking new boats in a decade or more. I have one question though - in 15 years when those big, presumably plexi, cats eye deadlights need replacing, what will the poor owner do? They look like they are bubbled, not just flat panels and I doubt Jeanneau will have any NOS ones left.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

tdw said:


> I'm not at all sure how much of the anti big cockpit thing is simply resistance to the new. In the case of that Jeanneau the centre consul table affair seems to at least reduce the huge distance across the cockpit and in effect turn it into two parallel cockpits though the distance from the forward end of the table to the companionway seems a longish hike.


I don't mind "New", but I still don't like that cockpit for offshore work...

Pictured below is the Island Packet 38 TRIPLE STARS, which features about as deep and secure a cockpit to be found on any production boat today... Last November, an American cruiser was lost between Newport and Bermuda when she was "ejected" from the cockpit after a knockdown in moderating, but confused seas in the wake of the passage of a few days of heavy weather... Sure, she was not tethered at the time, but still... A bit hard to imagine, no?










Now, try to picture what would happen to the occupants of this cockpit, in the event of a knockdown...










In my opinion, on a true aft cockpit boat, one should step UP onto the deck from the cockpit, and back DOWN on the return. More than anything, it's the height of that cockpit that scares me. The sole is the same level as the deck, thus the cockpit seats are considerably higher... Then, add the absurd width of those coamings that must be straddled to gain access to the deck, without so much as a hand or grab rail anywhere in reach, you're cooking up a perfect recipe for a man overboard... Say you have jacklines running aft on deck - how would you even clip on to one, without either leaving the cockpit to reach them, or laying across those seats and coaming in an effort to snag one...

The added height of that cockpit above the waterline will most certainly exaggerate the boat's motion, and possibly further sickness or exhaustion. The helmsman is placed in a position far more exposed to the elements than in a more traditional cockpit, no protection from any dodger out there... Hell, imagine even something as mundane as the passage of a mug of hot chocolate to the helm on a dirty night - it would entail a whole different operation on that Jeanneau, then a simple hand up that could be much more easily accomplished on that Alden...

As always, it's all about the intended use of the boat. That Jeanneau could be a wonderful platform for a wide array of sailing adventures, no doubt about it... All I'm saying is, I know which boat I'd prefer to sail to Bermuda, no contest...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> As always, it's all about the intended use of the boat. That Jeanneau could be a wonderful platform for a wide array of sailing adventures, no doubt about it... All I'm saying is, I know which boat I'd prefer to sail to Bermuda, no contest- JonEisberg


Here here, I am with you...+1. My biggest concern with most modern cockpits is the size and the need for the party platform. To easy to get thrown around and thrown off. And the height and motion of them..you hit the nail right on the head.

It is the one thing which makes me shy away from the center cockpits in our final cruising boat in the 42 ft range.

Dave


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

That's why I said "I guess it depends on what you want to do with the boat."

If you spend your time offshore making passages, I agree the Jeanneau would not be ideal. Seems most people go from Point A to Point B, spending the majority of their time at Point A and B, while carefully planning the passage based on weather. There's a lot of people making passages in boats that are not the Alden (or similar cockpit design). And such a cockpit design is no guarantee of safety. Isn't this the boat from which its owner was swept overboard earlier this year?



JonEisberg said:


>


That Jeanneau is not my ideal boat (though I'd take it in a heartbeat), but it does provide a stark contrast to the Alden cockpit and gives some ideas to think about in terms of what you want the boat to do for you.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SloopJonB said:


> I think that boat is gorgeous - one of the best looking new boats in a decade or more. I have one question though - in 15 years when those big, presumably plexi, cats eye deadlights need replacing, what will the poor owner do? They look like they are bubbled, not just flat panels and I doubt Jeanneau will have any NOS ones left.


It is not Jeanneau that makes them. Someone is making them for Jeanneau and that provider may or may not exist in 15 years. Anyway the problem would be far worse if the Jeanneau was an one off. As it is there will be hundreds of Jeanneaus that will need that piece replaced in 15 years. That would mean good business for someone and I am sure you can replace it. I am not saying it will be cheap

Regards

Paulo


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Now, try to picture what would happen to the occupants of this cockpit, in the event of a knockdown...


They would all lose their drinks and probably their sunglasses too!

But seriously, whatever boat design you choose, you have to match it to the cruising/sailing you plan to do. Your skills, your desires, your understanding of what it's like when all hell breaks loose, your physical capabilities, all have to play a part in the sailing you plan to do. Only then can you begin to match all that to the boat you need.

Being at the helm of a Columbia 45 leaves you pretty exposed. Yet I've been hit with 70 knot winds in a squall, endured 14 straight hours motoring into 4-6 foot seas, and survived much of what the Great Lakes can dish up and never felt concerned about my safety or going overboard. But I've always been pretty well prepared and ready to respond to the unexpected. And I was a lot younger then too.

But I get the concept of feeling safe, being deep in a cockpit. The first boat I ever sailed on was an old Alden with a cockpit like that. At the helm, I felt very safe and in control.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

JonEisberg said:


> Now, try to picture what would happen to the occupants of this cockpit, in the event of a knockdown...


While I agree with Julie that most of the crew is going to disappear from that cockpit in a knockdown, that guy on portside sitting on the binnacle appears to be "attached", if there is a compass there like on the other side:laugher

Does that center island transform into a huge BBQ grill?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

jrd22 said:


> Does that center island transform into a huge BBQ grill?


.. it would if CD ever bought one of those!


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Offshore, however, could be a whole different ballgame... Such a cockpit has many less than desirable attributes, and in heavy weather, I would consider it downright dangerous... Almost identical to the cockpit of RULE 62, lost in the Caribbean 1500 a couple of years ago - and it's always been my hunch that the characteristics of that boat and design of features like the cockpit likely contributed heavily to the seasickness and exhaustion the crew ultimately fell victim to...


We would never know exactly what happened to Rule 62 in 2010, since the survivors sealed their lips after the tragedy. But having a hunch that this is related to design of Jeanneau DS with its wide cockpit is too far fetch for me. No doubt, sea-kindness is better in a narrow beam heavy displacement with full keel. But there is no guarantee that the occupants would not get sick. Like many of others including myself that Rule 62 made all the mistakes that they shouldn't have.

Sea sickness is preventable or at least can be minimized if the proper precaution is implement before heading out to the sea. Many crew members often refuse to take motion sickness medication saying they could never get sick. It becomes the role of the Captain or Medical Office to demand that either they take their meds or get off the boat. I also suggest that every boat going to do serious offshore should carry Phenergan (promethazine) suppository 25mg and Phenergan 2 mg Injectable. Ask your doctor or pharmacist how to use them properly. Phenergan is only a few drugs that can control sea sickless after the symptom has appeared. No OTC drugs and patch will work if seasickless sets in.

If you get sick, you endanger everyone on the boat so be nice take your meds.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

caberg said:


> That's why I said "I guess it depends on what you want to do with the boat."
> 
> If you spend your time offshore making passages, I agree the Jeanneau would not be ideal. Seems most people go from Point A to Point B, spending the majority of their time at Point A and B, while carefully planning the passage based on weather. There's a lot of people making passages in boats that are not the Alden (or similar cockpit design). And such a cockpit design is no guarantee of safety. Isn't this the boat from which its owner was swept overboard earlier this year?
> 
> ...


Yes, that's Ned Cabot's J-46 on which he did some truly extraordinary high latitude voyaging. He was always a hero of mine, and I've posted that pic elsewhere as an illustration of the downsides of such a large wheel. I've always thought the ergonomics of the bigger J-Boats cockpits was very good, but on CIELITA, there's no way to get behind the wheel without stepping up onto the deck momentarily, then back down into the cockpit again... Not good for a boat going offshore, but apparently Ned felt the tradeoff for the oversized wheel was worth it...

You're right, of course, design in offshore yachts never offers any sort of "guarantee"... But still, some designs will likely stack the odds more in your favor, and IMHO the Alden certainly does that relative to the Jeanneau you pictured...

I spoke to Herb McCormick recently about Ned's loss, curious to see if he knew any more details of the incident. Ned had been aboard OCEAN WATCH with Herb for the leg of their trip from the Falklands, around Cape Horn, and up to their next stop in Chile... Herb said Ned always did EVERYTHING aboard strictly by the book - as one would expect from a Harvard surgeon - and never went on deck un-tethered, etc...

Herb's take on the tragedy off Newfoundland is right on the money, in my opinion... He simply cites it as an example of "sometimes, when your number is up, your number is up..." Ned simply had the great misfortune, at the moment when CIELITA suffered a knockdown, to not be clipped on "during the 10 seconds of his life when he really needed to be clipped on..."

Herb's words pretty much sum it up, for me... Even for the ablest and most conscientious sailor, sh_t can happen... "When your number is up..."


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

Put a dodger / bimini on it and it might be hard to move around. Also, IMHO, too much wood to look after.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

billyruffn said:


> Put a dodger / bimini on it and it might be hard to move around. Also, IMHO, too much wood to look after.


They do love their teak decks in Europe. It's *optional* on virtually all the boats built there.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Jon E .... my biggest criticism of the Jeanneau cockpit is the length of the thing and i've never been a fan of raising the cockpit simply to shoehorn a double bed in underneath. 
Shorten the thing by bringing the coachroof aft to that first step down, lower it overall so that as you say you step up onto the deck then its gets very close to receiving a tick from me. 

Must say though that I am not a fan of those "cat's eye" windows. Purely personal opinion, just don't like the look of them. Perhaps that's me being shocked by the new. 

Ref teak decks .... I'd never order a teak deck on a new boat though I'd be happy to pay to have the cockpit teaked. What does amaze me however is the appalling quality of the teak decks on modern production boats. If that is the best they can do then I'd rather not thank you very much. 

btw ... i was critical of Hanse cockpits in a previous but looking at their latest with the fold up platform they are really pretty good. Shame about the Ikea down below.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> Jon E .... my biggest criticism of the Jeanneau cockpit is the length of the thing and i've never been a fan of raising the cockpit simply to shoehorn a double bed in underneath.
> Shorten the thing by bringing the coachroof aft to that first step down, lower it overall so that as you say you step up onto the deck then its gets very close to receiving a tick from me.
> 
> Must say though that I am not a fan of those "cat's eye" windows. Purely personal opinion, just don't like the look of them. Perhaps that's me being shocked by the new.
> ...


Hi Andrews,

Builders do the boats people want. I agree with you that putting sailors up, further away from the boat CG is a bad idea in what regards sea motion and comfort if the things get nasty but if they don't do that they will mot be able to get the high for those beautiful master bedrooms. Anyway most of the guys that buy those boats are very unlikely to sail on tough weather. I am not saying the boat cannot take it, in fact I am sure the boat can take more than most sailors can handle, it will just be more uncomfortable.

Anyway, as you know we cannot blame jeanneau because they offer, for the ones that take that in consideration a line of boats with lower cockpits, boats that have not that master cabin but will be more comfortable in rough weather.

But regarding that it is very funny that I see people complaining about the more uncomfortable sea motion of deck saloons but I don't see people complaining about the worse sea motion in center cockpit boats, the other way to have a big master's bedroom. They too put sailors away from CG. They have some advantages because sailors are more on the center of the boat and that will make pitching movements a bit better than on a DS but regarding lateral movements (the worse for comfort) it is just the same.

Regards

Paulo


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PCP said:


> But regarding that it is very funny that I see people complaining about the more uncomfortable sea motion of deck saloons but I don't see people complaining about the worse sea motion in center cockpit boats, the other way to have a big master's bedroom. They too put sailors away from CG. They have some advantages because sailors are more on the center of the boat and that will make pitching movements a bit better than on a DS but regarding lateral movements (the worse for comfort) it is just the same.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Well, I'll complain about center cockpits, if you'd like... (grin) You're right, of course, the increased elevation above the water will exaggerate the motion and discomfort from rolling, and in my view often compromise security and safety... There's a pretty good reason we're only seeing flybridge cockpits/helms on multihulls, at least for the time being...










I've mentioned it before, but as sharp and sexy as those twin wheels can be aboard many of today's broad-beamed boats that carry their beam all the way aft, they have the downside of placing the helmsman in the most exposed position, subject to the most motion at one of the corners of the floating triangle... In fact, the only worse place for the helm on such a boat, at least in purely geometric terms and the consequences thereof, would be right up at the bow... (grin)


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I invite every one to do a 3 day passage in the cockpit of my soverel 28 and then go back and critique that cockpit again!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> ...
> I've mentioned it before, but as sharp and sexy as those twin wheels can be aboard many of today's broad-beamed boats that carry their beam all the way aft, they have the downside of placing the helmsman in the most exposed position, subject to the most motion at one of the corners of the floating triangle... In fact, the only worse place for the helm on such a boat, at least in purely geometric terms and the consequences thereof, would be right up at the bow... (grin)


Well, I agree. There is a trade off for everything and the best designers are not stupid and those beamy large transom boats boats did not born in a design board of some crazy designer. They have born along many years of design adapting solo racing boats to the needs of solo sailing and the biggest need of a solo sailor is an easy boat. Because most cruising boats are practically solo sailed what has been learned on those boats have been slowly incorporated in the design of cruising boats, many times by the same designers.

You are absolutely right regarding movement. Of course you don't have to be there to steer the boat but that is the most logical place since it is where you can see better where you are going, even if most cruisers actually use the autopilot (with a hand held command) and sail from the middle of the cockpit.

The advantages of that type of shape for cruisers are many (and that's why it is a major trend in modern cruising boats): The boat is a much more stable platform, it sails at max efficiency with very little heel (17% against the 30% of a narrow boat) and roll a lot less and that is specially important when sailing downwind.

The disadvantages are a lesser and more uncomfortable performance on upwind sailing (most of the cruisers when they want to go against the wind use the engine) and as you say more movement if you sail the boat from one of the corners of the transom.

Regarding the two wheels they offer the important and additional advantage to be able move much easily and safely forward to reach the winches, or to come back from the cockpit to the wheel if needed (with the boat is on autopilot).

I know that you have said:

*" I've always thought the ergonomics of the bigger J-Boats cockpits was very good, but on CIELITA, there's no way to get behind the wheel without stepping up onto the deck momentarily, then back down into the cockpit again... Not good for a boat going offshore, but apparently Ned felt the tradeoff for the oversized wheel was worth it..."
*

But that trade off is an important one and it is the possibility of sailing the boat comfortably from the lateral side and that's a must for all that like to take the wheel for a long time, specially if the boat goes upwind heeled: It is just the best place.

Everything is a trade off in boat design and you have to pick your choice accordingly with your sailing needs but have no doubt, boats like the new Hanse, Benetwau, Bavaria or Jeanneau are adapted to the needs of most sailors, otherwise they would not all be following the same general trend. They all want to sail many sailboats and to do that they have ti adapt their boats for the needs of most sailors.

I prefer other type of boats but then I don't do what most cruisers do with their sailboats and I bet that is also your case even if I am also sure that what is appropriated for you is not for me

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> Hi Andrews,
> 
> Builders do the boats people want. I agree with you that putting sailors up, further away from the boat CG is a bad idea in what regards sea motion and comfort if the things get nasty but if they don't do that they will mot be able to get the high for those beautiful master bedrooms. Anyway most of the guys that buy those boats are very unlikely to sail on tough weather. I am not saying the boat cannot take it, in fact I am sure the boat can take more than most sailors can handle, it will just be more uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


The popularity of centre cockpits is surely down to the same reason as the popularity of raised aft cockpits and that is the bed issue. I can well appreciate why a person would prefer a full size easily accessed vaguely rectangular bed over a v-berth but in the back of my fuzzy wee head is a little voice yelling "it's a small sailing boat for FFS .... ".

Lets face it we do carry about the silliest trifles when it comes to what we want in a boat. I confess that I like a boat that pushs the V-berth a bit aft giving plenty of width at the head to enable sleeping head forward. Indeed it gives the advantage of sleeping closer to anchor chain and while the occasional rumble may disturb one's rest I'd rather have made a couple of circuits of the deck in the middle of the night to satisfy myself re drag than not hear anything at all.

Apart from all that, five minutes spent on deck looking up at the stars is worth waking up for and it is interesting overall that we spend so little time (mea culpa, mea culpa, ) discussing decent sea berths and the rigging of lee clothes. Perhaps that is best kept for another thread ? Coming right up.

Andrew B


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