# Bavaria 30 Offshore rated and twin keel



## awindj (Jun 6, 2007)

I visited a Bavaria dealer yesterday to look at a Bavaria 30. I really like the boat and probably more importantly, my wife liked it.

A couple of questions.

I asked the dealer to compare it to the Hunter, Catalina and Beneteau boats. He stated that the big difference is that they are offshore rated. I didn't find anything in the literature that mentioned that. Is this real? The boat did seem to be more ruggedly constructed (bigger cleats and such).

The keel is described as "high-tech keel with twin foils connected by an iron bulb". I can't describe it but there is a picture here:

cruisingworld.com/boats-and-gear/boat-reviews-and-previews/bavaria-30-cruiser-photo-gallery-48019.html

Is there any data or opinions on how good this is?

Overall, this seemed to be a well thought out boat. It had a saildrive which sounds good to me. It looks like it will have a premium of $10 to $15K over a similar Hunter. Is that worth it?

How does this sail compared to other similar boats?

Thanks for any feedback. Right now I am only looking. Can't convince myself to buy something while I am living in the middle of Iowa with a long drive to a decent sailing ground.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

That is pure BS. A Bavaria 30 is an inshore production cruiser built lightly and not intended for offshore passagemaking. The "offshore rating" is a meaningless Euro standard that every 30 ft. boat I know of would qualify for.Most would say the build quality of Bavarias is at best no better than the other major production brands. 
You don't say where you plan to sail this boat but I assume fresh water lakes or Great Lakes based on your location and if you like the boat it will be fine in those conditions. I am not a fan of iron keels since any water ingress will allow deterioration. The TWIN foil bulb keel is an option on this boat and if you don't need the shoal draft, I'd suggest sticking with the standard keel. The boat sails well. I am not a fan of saildrives for cruising...(see the tartan problems thread...but if you want to race they make some sense. 
I would also suggest you visit your Catalina/Hunter/Beneteau dealers and look at their similar boats and ask those dealers how their boat compares to a Bavaria and you might learn more about the boat than by asking a Bavaria dealer.


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

I gather that you don’t like the boat Cam. I haven’t sailed on a boat that had that type of keel but my first thought is that the second fin must operate in the turbulence from the first fin. But it’s just my first thought and that’s been proven to be wrong in the past. Cam is right and the boat doesn’t look to be an offshore capable boat and given what I have seen from that builder she may not be a reasonable candidate for upgrading for true offshore work. But again that’s an impression from looking at other small boats from Bavaria and I have not looked at this model.
All the best,
Robert Gainer

PS. Cam, how did it end up with the Catalina thinking about going from Cape Cod to NC. I lost track of that thread.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The only Bavarias I've seen was at the Toronto boat show. I remember it being aesthetically appealing. Small winches though, small hardware in general. As I understand the reason for the twin foils is that most of the lift from the keel is generated by the leading edge, so with 2 leading edges, you get more lift with the same or less drag. Seems like more of a gimmick than anything.

Offshore capable? Seems kind of beamy for that.

Poor salesmen spout features when talking about their product, the good ones will discuss benefits. Your wife likes it, that's a benefit. What do twin foils and an offshore rating mean for you?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Robert...he never bought the boat. Now he is looking at moving to Long Island and buying a Mac26...wants opinions on that!! 

I think the B's are fine for doing the sailing most people do and they tend to be fairly quick boats but I am not a fan as my boat was fitted out in a yard that did the delivery prep on Bavarias and I got to be friendly with the yard workers...nuff said. 
Still..boating at this level is about price and accommodations and having fun for most... so I think they compete by offering a good price and a bit different style which is appealing to some. What does rankle me is dealers lying to sell boats and since most do it...I alway ask the competition what they think since they always know the points on which their own boats are superior!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Dealers tend to overstate the boats real capabilities. The 30' boats from the major manufacturers: Beneteau, Catalina, Jenneau, Hunter, Bavaria; are not bluewater boats. Also remember that Bavaria had a small problem with the keels falling off of a couple of models of boats, and had a couple fatailities associated with that problem not too long ago.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Sailing Dog said: "Also remember that Bavaria had a small problem with the keels falling off of a couple of models of boats, and had a couple fatailities associated with that problem not too long ago."

That must be why they're using two keels on this model - redundancy!


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

I am not a fan of Bavaria but just to be fair the problem was with one model and a fix was made available. That model by the way wasn’t sold in the US and was just intended for the European market. 

If you want to build with a minimum factor of safety you will have problems and almost every builder who pushes the limits has had trouble at one time or another. This sort of thing is another reason to avoid ultra light construction in my opinion. But that’s just my opinion. 

You as the customer need to do some homework and decide how far you want to push it. One indication of how much structure there really is in a boat is the ballast displacement ratio. The more boat compared to ballast the stronger the boat is as a very general rule.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

Why pay the premium on the dollar to euro exchange for this kind of boat? Why buy new? If it was me, looking to purchase this catagory of boat new, I'd look at the catalina and beneteau.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

European offshore catagory A rating, from what I can tell, is the ability to handle 7M waves and a beaufort force 10 wind. 

Not sure if said boat will or will not handle a 7M or about 25' waves or not. Along with not remembering what a force 10 wind is, Hurracane or just before is what I am seeming to recall. The only book I have with that info is an OLD royce book, at the boat of all places. 

I also am recalling something about having a space for a liferaft in the cockpit area. 

So if said boat, will meet this criteria, it is ocean rated! The C30 is not last I checked, but that is not saying much. Catagory B, if I am reading /heard specs correctly, is what most of us will do, sail in great lakes, puget sound or other semi protected water. 

Some of what I have typed, maybe misread or otherwise by me, but I do feel it is close, or circling the target etc.

marty


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Details of the EU's Recreational Craft Directive can be found under:-
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31994L0025:EN:HTML

The definitions A, B, C, D are:-

A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

B. OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

C. INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

D. SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on small lakes, rivers, and canals where conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0,5 m may be experienced.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I don't see ANY reference to ANY category on ANY of the literature or spec sheets for the Bav30. Guess they don't want to talk about it.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

That EU and the Lloyd's ratings are among the most salesman-abused terms in the boating racket.


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## awindj (Jun 6, 2007)

Thanks for all the comments. I sent an email to the dealer asking for more information on the twin keel as well as the offshore rating. Hopefully he can provide some more info.

I will plan to ask some of the competitors at the boat shows. I hope to make it to both Minneapolis and Chicago this winter.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It's an EU RCD Category E.... buy and pray... 


camaraderie said:


> I don't see ANY reference to ANY category on ANY of the literature or spec sheets for the Bav30. Guess they don't want to talk about it.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

If it's sold in the EU, it has to have a RCD certificate. Maybe Bavaria doesn't issue them for US sales.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bav 30*



camaraderie said:


> I don't see ANY reference to ANY category on ANY of the literature or spec sheets for the Bav30. Guess they don't want to talk about it.


It's an RCD CAT A, clearly marked on the craft itself and also on the promotional literature.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

My sense of the Bavaria's is that they are roughly the equivilent of the Beneteau Oceanis series, both of which have a 'B' rating depending on equipage, although in some noticable ways the Beneteaus looked to be better constructed and thought out.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dauphine..wanna point me in the right direction? Nothing I can find on line mentions it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> Dauphine..wanna point me in the right direction? Nothing I can find on line mentions it.


The old Bav 30 specs I looked at are gone now unfortunately, with it being replaced by the bav 31. However, I can 100% guarantee you that there is an official looking rating plaque on the cockpit stating that it is CAT A.

I can take a pic and post it online if anyone really wants to see it.

Had it for a year, and no major problems at all with it.


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## awindj (Jun 6, 2007)

*Dealer response*

I received a return email from the dealer and he assured me that the people at the factory say the Bavaria 30 is rated A as shown below.

A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind
force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above,
and vessels largely self-sufficient.

He will try to get more info on the twin keel. He said that there are other manufacturers that have a tandem keel but they are different than Bavaria's and shouldn't be compared directly.


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

I checked out the spec sheet http://70.183.175.55/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.bavaria-yachts.com/spec_sheets/c31.pdf Cat A or not, that's a heavy boat at a D/L of 277 it's not exactly a performance cruiser. Also, at 32.9 ft and 11.9 beam and solid glass hull, I question whether they are weighing in at design - 10,300 lbs. Also, ballast of 2400 lbs, wow, that 24% of design weight, for an ocean going boat I would expect 35-40%. Probably good initial stability with the beam, but I would check the numbers on ultimate stability. Personally, I would not put too much empasis on Cat A, I would think any european cruiser over 32 ft would be Cat A. I would pay more attention to the build and the technical numbers, and then go sail one and see how you like it, then talk to other owners. Then go sail other boats to get a comparison. I did not calc the SA/D but this is not a light-air boat.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Tandem keels and twin (bilge) keels are two different things. There are a lot of European boats that offer tandem keels for those who need to enter shallower harbours and are not concerned with racing the performance of a deep fin keel. The hole in the tandem keel is supposed to increase lift/reduce drag. There's a debate on it here:-

http://forums.boatdesign.net/showthread.php?t=1058


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## awindj (Jun 6, 2007)

*Twin Keel*

While looking for something else I stumbled across this news release from Bavaria.

BAVARIA YACHTS ADDS TANDEM KEEL ON
SHOAL-DRAFT SAILBOAT MODELS
ANNAPOLIS, Md. - October 16, 2006 - Bavaria Yachts is now offering an optional
tandem keel that provides shallower draft with improved sailing performance.
The tandem keel is available on the shoal-draft models of the Bavaria 30, 33 and 37
Cruisers.
"The tandem keel design offers the same range of stability as a deep keel, in that the
center of gravity is kept low by putting weight from the center of the keel into the bulb," said
Bruce Mundle, managing director of Bavaria Yachts USA. "The result is less drag and more lift,
with better tracking to windward and easier tacking."
"Test results have revealed improved performance over traditional shoal keel designs,
with performance comparable to a deeper draft keel. It also provides better damping of pitch and
roll and enhanced directional stability and resistance to broaching," Mundle added. "Tandem
keels have been actively campaigned in the grand prix racing circuit for many years and many
people with intimate knowledge of the program speculate that tandem keels will be in evidence
in the next America's Cup."
Bavaria Yachtbau is one of the largest sailboat builders in Europe. With a modern highly
mechanized factory in Wurzburg, Germany, it employs state-of-the-art automated processes to
ensure product consistency and quality control while reducing manufacturing costs. As a result,
Bavaria Yachts provide an extraordinary combination of value and quality.


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