# What's the most appreciated upgrade you've done to your boat?



## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

We've been living aboard for the last year and a half and we're frequently coming up with upgrades to create a nice environment to sail and live. I'm curious what upgrade (if something in particular) has increased your quality of life the most?

For us, it's our upgraded solar panel array. We put two 170 watt flexible Sunpower panels on our bimini and installed a Victron MPPT 100 | 30 Charge Controller. The bluetooth app that we use on our phones for monitoring the solar action in real time is pretty cool.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

By far and away our watermaker has made the biggest difference to improving our lives since GPS became affordable to us normal folks.


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

capta said:


> By far and away our watermaker has made the biggest difference to improving our lives since GPS became affordable to us normal folks.


💧👍 What water maker did you install? Is it one that you recommend? High quality, reliable, etc?💧


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I am going to agree that it is the solar. Pretty much any of the electrical things on the boat would be a PITA were it not for the solar.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

vessel said:


> 💧👍 What water maker did you install? Is it one that you recommend? High quality, reliable, etc?💧


We assembled it ourselves. It is a 110 vac unit, 40ish gph. Since the high pressure pump is the most costly item, I waited until I found a really good deal on a virtually new (1 hour on it) one and then got all the other parts to suit the pump.
Unless you have a lot of battery power, I'd stay away from a 12 volt unit, but I'm sure you'll get plenty of advice both ways on that one. There are tons of directions and schematics online should you wish to assemble your own. Altogether it cost about us$2200.00 to do it that way. The system has worked flawlessly for over 7 years.


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

capta said:


> We assembled it ourselves. It is a 110 vac unit, 40ish gph. Since the high pressure pump is the most costly item, I waited until I found a really good deal on a virtually new (1 hour on it) one and then got all the other parts to suit the pump.
> Unless you have a lot of battery power, I'd stay away from a 12 volt unit, but I'm sure you'll get plenty of advice both ways on that one. There are tons of directions and schematics online should you wish to assemble your own. Altogether it cost about us$2200.00 to do it that way. The system has worked flawlessly for over 7 years.


Wow, I'm impressed. With 40 ish GPH it sounds like it's a pretty dang strong pump. If you have a photo handy, I'm interested to see what it looks like. If not, totally understand! Thanks for sharing. A waker maker is on 'the list' so your thoughts are appreciated


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

Don L said:


> I am going to agree that it is the solar. Pretty much any of the electrical things on the boat would be a PITA were it not for the solar.


Amazing the benefits of solar while on board. Do you have hard or flexible panels? We may add additional hard panels off of our davits.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

The biggest upgrade I did to my boat was buy a bigger one. The biggest upgrade to my truck is the same SmartSolar setup you got just the smaller model 100/20. I have it in a portable box I carry to and from the boat or truck.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

There are a few things we added that compete for top spot. In no particular order: lithium batteries, 30gph watermaker, 1300W of solar, redesign/rebuild of our uncomfortable settee, lots of shading for cockpit and cabin.

Mark


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

capta said:


> We assembled it ourselves. It is a 110 vac unit, 40ish gph.
> 
> Unless you have a lot of battery power, I'd stay away from a 12 volt unit,


Being ac do you run it only off of the generator?


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

colemj said:


> There are a few things we added that compete for top spot. In no particular order: lithium batteries, 30gph watermaker, 1300W of solar, redesign/rebuild of our uncomfortable settee, lots of shading for cockpit and cabin.
> 
> Mark


You've done some serious upgrades! We currently have AGM batteries and replaced them all a year an a half ago. Lithium has clear advantages, which brand did you go with? How has lithium changed life on the boat for you?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

jephotog said:


> Being ac do you run it only off of the generator?


Yes, but our refrigeration is AC also, so it's a twofer.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I built the bank and system myself out of individual CALB cells. 

We no longer pay attention to battery maintenance or charging care, run our water heater and AC watermaker off the inverter rather than a generator, and on those hot, still, rainy or buggy nights when open hatches aren't helpful, we can even run the 5kbtu A/C feeding our sleeping cabin off the inverter.

The lithium upgrade might be the the top one because it enables a lot of other stuff, and changed life on board more than we ever thought it would. But it goes hand in glove with the solar upgrade, so there really isn't any separation of those two.

Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

vessel said:


> Amazing the benefits of solar while on board. Do you have hard or flexible panels? We may add additional hard panels off of our davits.


I have hard panels. Have 640W, but cruised 2.5 years with 290W.


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

colemj said:


> I built the bank and system myself out of individual CALB cells.
> 
> We no longer pay attention to battery maintenance or charging care, run our water heater and AC watermaker off the inverter rather than a generator, and on those hot, still, rainy or buggy nights when open hatches aren't helpful, we can even run the 5kbtu A/C feeding our sleeping cabin off the inverter.
> 
> ...


Very inspiring. I've researched a bit regarding running A/C off to the inverter with lithium. Appreciate those details. We have a 12k BTU A/C on board, so probably not very feasible with lithium (unless we install a massive bank I imagine).


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

vessel said:


> Very inspiring. I've researched a bit regarding running A/C off to the inverter with lithium. Appreciate those details. We have a 12k BTU A/C on board, so probably not very feasible with lithium (unless we install a massive bank I imagine).


People are running systems that large, but it does take a large bank and the ability to replace the power. Our main system is a 16kbtu, but we have small 5kbtu's running in the staterooms. These smaller ones only draw 4.5A AC, which puts them at ~50A DC through the inverter, which is easy for the batteries to handle. The only time we would do so is when trying to sleep on hot, humid, no wind, rain, buggy nights. Otherwise, a breeze and no bugs makes for fine sleeping.

You might consider a 3.5kbtu unit dedicated to your main stateroom. They are pretty small and compact. That would only draw ~30A and be easy to run with a smaller bank.

Mark


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

colemj said:


> we can even run the 5kbtu A/C feeding our sleeping cabin off the inverter.


Impressive system.

How much AH of Lithium do you have?

What kind of inverter?

Do you still have a generator? How often and why does it get run?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

600Ah of lithium battery.

Victron Multiplus 3000 inverter, but any 1200W or above inverter would work. Technically, a 1000W inverter should run it, even with startup load.

Yes, the boat came with a generator. We don't use it unless we want to run the entire boat 3 A/C systems or are having a week of heavy non-stop rain and the solar is down. Its main purpose now, I suppose, is to operate the dive tank compressor - a system we have never used (yet), don't know how to operate (yet), don't even know if it works, and unsure how much we will use it in the future. Removing the generator will require breaking it apart into small pieces and carrying them out of a horribly unaccessible space. It was put in the boat during layup, and the bulkheads and furniture were built around it, and the deck put on after. There are no hatches to lift it through.

Dumping the generator would take off 600lbs and free up a huge storage space (plus the 120lb compressor and its space). It might be in our future, but right now it is at the bottom of an endless to-do list. On the other hand, 25% of that list has to do with the care and feeding of the generator - hmmm.....

Mark


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Will always be Autopilot... Everything else is just icing on the cake


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Sugar scoops and swim platforms (transom extensions) on my cat. Performance was enhanced, but the important thing to my wife and parents was MUCH easier and safer boarding from the dinghy.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Current boat - new sails.

Previous boat - adding a bimini.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

My use has evolved. We use it for weekends now and a short cruise now and again. The most important upgrade was auto pilot and roller furling. and electric windlass. After that it would be the refer/frig and perhaps espar heat. Battery and wiring upgade were important but don't change use of the boat much. Small solar was an early add and it keeps batts up at the mooring.

Watermaker and AC are not really needed the way we sail these days.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

New boat, old boat, cheap boat or expensive, big boat or small, weekender or full time live aboard. All these things change how you use the boat and What is important.

we have an old, cheap, 44’ cutter we live aboard for 6 months a year in the Eastern Carib. Our best upgrade was our big ass anchor because we frequently anchor on narrow sloping bottoms. Our boat came with a sizable windlass courtesy of the PO which made the big anchor possible.

I also added a substantial arch to hold the solar, wind, radar, and outboard. It also makes a very secure work platform on the aft deck of our center cockpit and we store too much stuff on it. Much comes off for a passage.

The AP is a must. There are a variety of ways to approach this now. Not all budget busters.

Oh yeah, mast steps. Nearly forgot them. Saves money and hives you independence.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ice maker......  

Mostly kidding, but it is a very homey luxury.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

In order
spectra Cape Horn extreme water maker
swapping a lombardini generator for a northern lights
hydrovane
swapping 2 stroke for a fuel efficient 4 stroke with fuel injection.

most bang for the buck on initial specs. Two D400 wind generators, Rocna, hard dodger, hard Bimini, and upgrade sails out of Dacron into low stretch fabric.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

T37Chef said:


> Will always be Autopilot... Everything else is just icing on the cake


Autopilot isn't really an upgrade - it is a requirement! Like not counting the mast as an upgrade...

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> Autopilot isn't really an upgrade - it is a requirement! Like not counting the mast as an upgrade...
> 
> Mark


It is an upgrade and it is a requirement. Mfgs don't normally sell new sailboats with APs as far as I know.


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## sebba (Nov 14, 2016)

Rocna Vulcan 25kg anchor on Gib'Sea 43


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

T37Chef said:


> Will always be Autopilot... Everything else is just icing on the cake


Yes, the autopilot! A major upgrade for us as well. What autopilot do you use?


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

outbound said:


> In order
> spectra Cape Horn extreme water maker
> swapping a lombardini generator for a northern lights
> hydrovane
> ...


Sounds like some great upgrades to your Outbound 46 (nice boat!). I've considered adding a D400 and it sounds like it's been a great addition. Did you buy a kit for installation or what was that like?


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

colemj said:


> Autopilot isn't really an upgrade - it is a requirement! Like not counting the mast as an upgrade...
> 
> Mark


Perspective I suppose... Most boats I am exposed to, Autopilot is not/was not a standard feature and therefore an upgrade in my perspective. Now if the OP had phrased the question with more specific criteria I may have posted something different...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

vessel said:


> Yes, the autopilot! A major upgrade for us as well. What autopilot do you use?


I am an advocate of not using a GPS driven AP. Of course I am using a plotter for navigation and it "tells" me the heading to a desired waypoint and I then set the course on the AP. My AP has a dial for course input and it's like a mini steering wheel. I can "steer" with this dial as easy as I can with the helm. But helm is used for dock and slip "work".. sometimes mooring. But 99% of steering is done with the AP dial.


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## DaySailerMawd (Jul 21, 2020)

buying waterproof blue tooth speakers, so I can play music from my iphone.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Had the the support posts done as part of hard Bimini. This was done initial build. The devices come with good directions and assembly isn’t hard. Hardest part is putting on the actual blades into the central hub and snapping on the center protective cone. Found out using dishwasher liquid as a lubricant works great. In fact now use Dawn whenever I need to assemble or disassemble plastic parts. Do use bowling alley floor wax or equivalent on the blades once a year to keep them nice and smooth.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I was going to add autopilot and refrigeration but many people beat me to it.

Believe it or not my 2002 C&C (bought in 2013) did not have an autopilot when I bought it. That was the first 'upgrade' I did. 

My boat also came with refrigeration, which I didn't think I would appreciate as I mostly day sail or weekend. Now, if I'm going to be on boat for more than 4 hours the fridge goes on. It's nice not to buy ice on a daily basis and I drink more ice than melts. I just completed a 4 day trip. I bought 8 lbs of ice on day one, turned on the fridge, and when I unloaded the boat yesterday I still had over a pound of ice left. Items in the fridge stay dry, the butter stays hard, and the beer is cold, and I have nice cubes for the gin and tonics. 

Barry


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Hmm, 

- Solar with a good MPPT (victron), basically self-sufficient for power without running main engine or generator.

- New efficient fridge/freezer. Cold beer!

- Composting head. No limit for how long we can remain remote, enclosed anchorages. 

- Salt water tap. Greatly extends our fresh water. 

- Bimini (made of solar panels). 

- Bigger Rocna anchor. Way better than the old CQR.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

While I consider autopilot a "must have", because I have had mine die and know the difference of a passage with and without, I guess it is an upgrade.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

#1. Reliable anchoring gear
Sleep is a good thing
#2. LFP batteries with solar


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

colemj said:


> Autopilot isn't really an upgrade - it is a requirement! Like not counting the mast as an upgrade...
> 
> Mark


Beleive it not most sailboats and maybe even posters here are not using 40 fters.. I had no autopilot till a
10 years ago. To me like Chef, it was an upgrade.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Rocna
Rocna
Rocna


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

If you don't have an autopilot, and then you get one, then it must be an upgrade. Personally I'd say a real upgrade is a windvane.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Mike most people are coastal in areas with traffic and obstacles. Personally use the AP when coastal cruising, and hand steer going in or out. I love my Hydrovane but it only comes into it’s own on passage or long (>75m) coastal jumps. Of course none of them work when under power by themselves, all interfere with backing up to some degree, all are PIA if you have to make frequent course corrections. It’s not like tapping +10 going around the problem then tapping -10. Also, not often discussed when there’s only me on deck I can do any evolution by myself with the AP easily. It’s much harder to reef using the vane. The remote usually comes into play. 
I love having both and would again. But if choosing one it would be an AP.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

APs are mission critical for single and short handed sailing. If you are "stuck" at the helm... everything else that needs attention is not going to get it... except perhaps some sail trim.

One can think of a reliable AP as an additional crew member. I use it even getting out of the harbor and it hardly makes sense to program waypoints or a route as there is often a lot of traffic that needs to be considered or dodged. I find the dial course AP intuitive, easy, reliable... and very much like "helming". My steering is informed by local observations (nearby activity/stuff which does not show on a plotter or GPS) and general, long range "data" including depths, shoals, underwater hazards, aids to navigation and land features which ARE displayed on a chart plotter. So I use the chart plotter plus local nearby observation to steer with the AP much as a helmsman might do. To steer to a distant mark I don't need the plotter to compute the bearing I can use the plotter's ship's heading line.... out to "infinity" which shows were the boat would go on a straight course... I turn my AP to get that line to point to the mark or pass over "safe water". If I have a waypoint of many miles I can enter it into the plotter, get the computed bearing and dial that in to the AP. The plotter will give a course which considers current and that can be handy to stay on the rhumb line. But usually this hardly matters at the distances to the marks I set.

Regardless of what type of AP a short/single handed sailor uses..,.if it fails it's like losing a crew over board.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Apparently, my autopilot comment was not taken as I intended. Of course I know many boats don't come with an autopilot. What I intended to say is that, for us, an autopilot is a requirement, so I don't count it as an "upgrade". It would be like buying a sailboat with no/shot sails - getting sails would not be an upgrade, it would be a requirement. Others might be happy to continue on with blown out sails. Our AP is so important to us that we have two completely separate ones including compass, rudder feedback, etc. One is kept off-line and unwired (as are its components) for lightning and electrical protection, but can be put into service in 5 minutes.

I bet everyone who gets an autopilot eventually says "I'm never going to own another boat without an autopilot".

I consider a good mattress in the same category, but we only have one of those because I'm happy to sleep on broken glass rather than lose the AP.  

I'm not even sure an under-deck AP exists anymore that cannot be connected to a chartplotter (and all other instruments). One could intentionally not connect it by putting it on a completely separate network than the other instruments. Or one could connect it, but just never use it that way - there is no forced or default navigation/wind usage.

Our AP has a dial on it and can be steered around using that instead of the wheel or push buttons.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Was surprised not having the AP integrated has its advantages. Have had both for long enough times to offer a considered opinion. Don’t feel as strongly as some famous long distance cruisers who say stand alone is the only way to go. Think that’s just wrong. Most below deck units will accept awa, sog, speedo input, and rudder angle directly and outside any existing network to my understanding. So you can run a AP can keep it outside the multi system displays. 
With stand alone
you‘re somewhat forced to review the next leg. Especially helpful when near coastal or on vane function (find I use wind angle function less and less the nearer to a shore I am. Much prefer using the vane for that) 
stand alone means screw ups in the “system “ won’t leave you without an AP. Easy to switch to navionics on a freestanding device and “stay calm-sail on”
stand alone means when you’re doing line of sight like the BVIs or other well known cruising grounds you don’t need to turn on the whole nav system at all.
Do like both types of set ups and don’t think it ultimately matters much which way you’re set up. But don’t see integrated as a meaningful plus for most people.
you hear of troubles occurring when folks put in a set of waypoints. Then due to traffic, set, or wind shifts go over dangerous spots as they don’t review the now different next leg. I know you can’t blame integration for this but think it makes it a bit easier to occur. Personally, have yet to screw up either way (knock on wood) but people do.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Outbound,
We seem to be going off topic, don’t want to add to that BUT I also want to point out that Your above comments are true for servo-pendulum games. Auxiliary rudder vanes are a very different device and have different Pros/cons. Thinking about it for the first time I would suggest that aux rudder units may be better for smaller boats and servo pendulums for larger.
If we are to pursue this conversation we should probably start a new thread.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Yup, wife says I tend to ramble. My bad. To close it. Have a hydrovane on a 30000lb boat. It works great. One of the best upgrades


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

We find windvane mode to be useful. Also, our pilot uses wind data to prevent unintentional jibes downwind. It also uses wind data in all of its sailing steering modes to better keep course in rougher conditions. 

I can't see how screwups in the system can take out an integrated AP. Things like compass, rudder feedback, drive unit, etc are there whether a "system" or standalone. A faulty network could be an issue, but that is very rare, and a standalone still has a network too.

If one is using an AP doing line of sight, one still needs the compass, rudder feedback and head unit turned on (and possibly GPS). Wiring these to be separate from the rest of the electronics is strange because it removes those data from other instruments. Particularly since one could just leave the plotter and radar turned off if not wanted.

Needing to be "forced" to review a route is also strange, as is the belief that one will not do so if following a route with AP. Particularly since none of the AP's will blindly turn more than 30* (and many not at all) into a new route heading without the operator pushing a button or cancelling an alarm. The belief that an AP can blindly follow a route without human intervention is a wive's tale or misunderstanding.

I guess I don't understand the angst and believe in forced operation that some have to integrated systems. All integrated means is that all of the data are available, as well as some additional functionality. It does not mean that one is forced to operate in any particular way, nor forced into behaviors they do not want to perform or ignore.

An integrated AP looks and acts just like a non-integrated AP until one goes through the menu system and explicitly sets up one of the additional functionalities like steer to waypoint or wind. Otherwise the "Auto" button default is steer to compass.

Again, I don't know of any below-deck AP that is standalone, except for the hobby-level Pelagic, and even that integrates to wind to help it better steer a course in rougher seas. The other hobby-level similar one is PyPilot, but that was designed specifically for integration with OpenCPN.

Mark


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

This is only my second season with my current boat, so can't say I've really upgraded much: a new battery charger (there wasn't one before) is really the only substantive change I've made so far. But this new boat addresses the major upgrades I wanted from my last boat: I wanted standing headroom, an inboard diesel, a bimini, lazy jacks, sail handling lines lead back to the cockpit, self-tailing winches and a walk through, sugar scoop transom. All pretty standard stuff on boats over 27 feet made since the '90s. But my 1979 O'day 23 had none of them. And as a bonus, the boat also came with an autopilot (what a revelation that was!)


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Currently running a RM as stand alone. Have circa 2013 AP and brand new axiom. They don’t talk to each other. That’s reality Mark. Take another $400-500 to get them to talk but after having stand-alone for a few days got to really like it so canceled the final upgrade.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Yeah, Raymarine sucks that way, but it looks like they are starting to go to standardized networking now. At least your Axiom looks to have standard NMEA2000 connections. If you have the SPX model autopilot, then all that is needed to bring it to your Axiom (and the rest of the instruments/transducers) is a $25 adapter cable with a STNG connector on one end and a canbus connector on the other. Or just use any old canbus cable, cut one end off, and connect directly to the AP STNG terminals. If you have an even older SmartPilot AP, without STNG then you would need a $100 adapter device. I'm not sure what the $400-500 would include.

Do you have two compasses and two knotmeters - one for the AP and one for the rest of the system? Or do you just operate the chartplotter only with SOG and COG?

It sounds like your Axiom might be the stand-alone, and the AP has integration to speed and compass (and probably wind)? 

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

mstern said:


> This is only my second season with my current boat, so can't say I've really upgraded much: a new battery charger (there wasn't one before) is really the only substantive change I've made so far. But this new boat addresses the major upgrades I wanted from my last boat: I wanted standing headroom, an inboard diesel, a bimini, lazy jacks, sail handling lines lead back to the cockpit, self-tailing winches and a walk through, sugar scoop transom. All pretty standard stuff on boats over 27 feet made since the '90s. But my 1979 O'day 23 had none of them. And as a bonus, the boat also came with an autopilot (what a revelation that was!)


New boat is for sure an upgrade! The easiest way to do it!

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> Apparently, my autopilot comment was not taken as I intended. Of course I know many boats don't come with an autopilot. What I intended to say is that, for us, an autopilot is a requirement, so I don't count it as an "upgrade". It would be like buying a sailboat with no/shot sails - getting sails would not be an upgrade, it would be a requirement. Others might be happy to continue on with blown out sails. Our AP is so important to us that we have two completely separate ones including compass, rudder feedback, etc. One is kept off-line and unwired (as are its components) for lightning and electrical protection, but can be put into service in 5 minutes.
> 
> I bet everyone who gets an autopilot eventually says "I'm never going to own another boat without an autopilot".
> 
> ...


This is correct.... and incorrect.. It IS almost as important as sails... But all boats come with a wheel or a tiller and can be steered. So it's an ADD on which drives the boat's steering system. So it IS an upgrade. I would never own a boat without an AP.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> Apparently, my autopilot comment was not taken as I intended. Of course I know many boats don't come with an autopilot. What I intended to say is that, for us, an autopilot is a requirement, so I don't count it as an "upgrade". It would be like buying a sailboat with no/shot sails - getting sails would not be an upgrade, it would be a requirement. Others might be happy to continue on with blown out sails. Our AP is so important to us that we have two completely separate ones including compass, rudder feedback, etc. One is kept off-line and unwired (as are its components) for lightning and electrical protection, but can be put into service in 5 minutes.
> 
> I bet everyone who gets an autopilot eventually says "I'm never going to own another boat without an autopilot".
> 
> ...


My AP is below decks and is not integrated. It has its own compass. Alpha 3000. I can't assert that it is superior to an integrated one... but I can state that it does the steering I "tell it to" and that's all I need.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> My AP is below decks and is not integrated. It has its own compass. Alpha 3000. I can't assert that it is superior to an integrated one... but I can state that it does the steering I "tell it to" and that's all I need.


I understand, but your AP is no longer made. My point was that if buying a new AP, I don't know of any that are not able to be connected to the boat instrument data bus and chartplotter. The closest I know is the Pelagic, but that integrates to wind data.

My other point was that all current AP steering algorithms benefit greatly by having access to wind and speed data. One would hobble their performance by not providing those. I can't understand why anyone would do that, since it can be considered a safety issue in rougher conditions where broaching or jibing is a risk.

Old standalone AP's were known for giving up the ghost in large following seas. New AP's using all instrument data steer better than most humans in these conditions.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> I understand, but your AP is no longer made. My point was that if buying a new AP, I don't know of any that are not able to be connected to the boat instrument data bus and chartplotter. The closest I know is the Pelagic, but that integrates to wind data.
> 
> My other point was that all current AP steering algorithms benefit greatly by having access to wind and speed data. One would hobble their performance by not providing those. I can't understand why anyone would do that, since it can be considered a safety issue in rougher conditions where broaching or jibing is a risk.
> 
> ...


I just checked and see the company is closing. Next AP will be.... who knows.... any suggestions? This one is still working.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

colemj said:


> I understand, but your AP is no longer made. My point was that if buying a new AP, I don't know of any that are not able to be connected to the boat instrument data bus and chartplotter. The closest I know is the Pelagic, but that integrates to wind data.
> 
> My other point was that all current AP steering algorithms benefit greatly by having access to wind and speed data. One would hobble their performance by not providing those. I can't understand why anyone would do that, since it can be considered a safety issue in rougher conditions where broaching or jibing is a risk.
> 
> ...


All this discussion of autopilots is going to get me to read the manual for my autopilot. As of now, I know it is not connected to the chartplotter; or if it is, the PO had no idea how to use it. All he did was show me how to turn it on, engage it with the wheel, and set a course. It's a Raymarine, but I don't know what model or how old it is. I'll make a note to check on this stuff next time I'm at the boat.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Both work fine. Both get all the data they need to allow all functions. Only thing is I can’t tap on the display to change course on the AP. AP does get speed, true and magnetic course, awa and gps. It does all its suppose to do. Vector lines show up on the display so there’s no issue.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> I just checked and see the company is closing. Next AP will be.... who knows.... any suggestions? This one is still working.


My suggestion is to keep using the one you have since it fits your needs. Worry about replacing if it goes South. No need to spend $$$ for no real reason. One good thing about yours is that a lot of the electronics are discreet, analog, and repairable, so much of it can be fixed by a general electronics person even if the company is out of business. New ones are just toss and replace - not much on them to fix besides the drive circuit because much of the electronics are highly integrated circuits and bonded displays.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> Both work fine. Both get all the data they need to allow all functions. Only thing is I can't tap on the display to change course on the AP. AP does get speed, true and magnetic course, awa and gps. It does all its suppose to do. Vector lines show up on the display so there's no issue.


Ah, I think we are talking about different things. I was discussing integration as the AP having access to all of the instrument data including the chartplotter route/waypoint information, and I think you were discussing it as the chartplotter being able to control the AP functions themselves.

So I think your AP is fully integrated into your nav system, and is like ours in the sense that we cannot control its functions from the plotter either. In our case, the AP is a different brand than the plotter, and all AP control commands are proprietary to each AP manufacturer.

Like you, this doesn't bother me in the least, and I'm so trained to think of, and use, the AP as a separate instrument that going to the chartplotter and choosing a special AP menu to make a 10* course change or turn the AP to standby or the like seems foreign and intrusive to me. But I guess it could save a couple hundred on a separate AP control head.

However, the AP still has access to all the instrument data, and all the functions are available to it, you just need to tell it to follow a route, or go to a waypoint, or steer to a wind angle instead of telling the plotter to tell it that. The only difference is the specific device through which you interact with it.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

mstern said:


> engage it with the wheel


Is it a wheel pilot or did this refer to something else?

Mark


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> Rocna
> Rocna
> Rocna


It sounds like fellow sailors agree regarding Rocna! Sounds like it must do well with most bottom features and holding types. Is that accurate from your experience? What makes it such a great upgrade?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Don’t get me wrong I like my AP. But a 4 hour sail doesn’t require it. I physically like and crave the feel of the water and the tug through the wheel.

Yes the boat sails using it. It also sails without one so I don’t subscribe to the extra crewman analogy.

To me leaving the dock and going straight to autopilot or a course laid in is tantamount to playing a video game. The day I do that I give up Haleakula. I don’t discount its use, especially on trips, voyages, etc. I sail using electronics as aids, I don’t electronically sail.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

vessel said:


> It sounds like fellow sailors agree regarding Rocna! Sounds like it must do well with most bottom features and holding types. Is that accurate from your experience? What makes it such a great upgrade?


I was one of the first users of a New Gen Anchor in our club/ marina 15 years ago. There are others now, ( Manson and Mantus) . Ours is actually one of the original New Zealand made ones. Their are many anchor threads you should read to find out why they are so popularly used. No need to repeat or start here . Anchor threads can be quite popularly contentious. This thread is not about it and we shouldn't purposely drift it. Feel free to start a separate thread if there is not enough info in the old threds?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

vessel said:


> It sounds like fellow sailors agree regarding Rocna! Sounds like it must do well with most bottom features and holding types. Is that accurate from your experience? What makes it such a great upgrade?


It is more a current generation anchor thing rather than a Rocna specific thing. If upgrading from an older generation anchor to a new generation one, you will find it a large step up in anchoring performance. We have both a Rocna and a Spade, and they are overall equivalent. The Rocna does better in grass, and the Spade sinks deeper in soft bottoms. I don't think you will find any substantial difference with a Manson Supreme or a Mantus. There are other current generation types also which perform better than the older ones.

Mark


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> I was one of the first users of a New Gen Anchor in our club/ marina 15 years ago. There are others now, ( Manson and Mantus) . Ours is actually one of the original New Zealand made ones. Their are many anchor threads you should read to find out why they are so popularly used. No need to repeat or start here . Anchor threads can be quite popularly contentious. This thread is not about it and we shouldn't purposely drift it. Feel free to start a separate thread if there is not enough info in the old threds?


Good point regarding thread. I'll look around regarding anchors, specifically.  We use a CQR.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I just looked at your website. Your beard in your avatar is much shorter now! Did it take hedge clippers to get to there?  That was an impressive old salty sea man you had.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

vessel said:


> Good point regarding thread. I'll look around regarding anchors, specifically.  We use a CQR.


As mentioned, the newer style anchors are all similar in performance (in my opinion). Some do better in specific conditions vs others, but as a general bower anchor, I consider them all about the same.

So get one that fits your existing roller and pocketbook. Any will be much better than your old CQR


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> As mentioned, the newer style anchors are all similar in performance (in my opinion). Some do better in specific conditions vs others, but as a general bower anchor, I consider them all about the same.
> 
> So get one that fits your existing roller and pocketbook. Any will be much better than your old CQR


They may be better in certain conditions. Hard for me to say. I've been using the original CQR successfully since '85 including living on the hook for 4 years. Had I been dragging and so on... I would have changed anchors. I will replace the CQR with a nextgen when this one gets too rusty looking. Fitting is an issue.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Yes I agree all the “New Gen” are pretty similar. We have a taken apart Mantus as our backup. 

Jeff, I too had a CQR for 20 years. At the time it was a good anchor. Just because it worked does mean it’s the best currently available. From my own personal, as well as many others these anchors are a step in a positive manner as far as holding and resetting. 

Anchors are part of safety equipment. My 16 years of use of our Rocna tells be the anchor grabs 95% of the time when it is lowered with any engine assist. In an engine failure that’s a great comfort to know . I’ve seen CQRs skip across the bottom and not reset easily when lifted up. I had one before our Rocna.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> They may be better in certain conditions. Hard for me to say. I've been using the original CQR successfully since '85 including living on the hook for 4 years. Had I been dragging and so on... I would have changed anchors. I will replace the CQR with a nextgen when this one gets too rusty looking. Fitting is an issue.


I sailed with a CQR as my main bower for a decade. Certainly they work. The newer anchors are simply better in almost every way (except perhaps cost ).


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm surprised nobody has said their composting toilet is their best upgrade. My previous boat had no water, or fancy electronics. My current boat has a bunch of systems that are not working. Every one that I get up-and-running is like a whole new world. Water that drains from the sink to outside the boat, and not onto the cabin floor, yea! Twenty year old radar comes back to life, yea! Traveler that moves, and stays in place, yea! Etc...


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

MikeOReilly said:


> I sailed with a CQR as my main bower for a decade. Certainly they work. The newer anchors are simply better in almost every way (except perhaps cost ).


Have you priced a new CQR? Even a used one? The new anchors are much less expensive.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Some feedback for @vessel. One upgrade I won't be doing is using your app. It looked interesting so I downloaded it. But the amount of personal information you require just to get past the registration process is way over the top. Not only the usual name, email, and password (OK, you get my honeypot account like others), but a requirement for a picture, as well as intimate details of the boat is too much. It even appears that you might be tracking the position (of the phone, but I guess that is a proxy for the boat) - although it is difficult to tell since I won't go past the registration. There seems to be no way to get pass this intrusive registration to actually see what the app offers. If one tries to dismiss the registration process, they are just taken back into it and told all the information is required.

I understand the need for boat details in an app designed to track maintenance, parts, etc, and understand if this was personal information stored on my phone only, but to require it for registration to use the app is different. I'm sure you are a good person who would never do anything with that much personal and detail information, but that isn't cool in today's world.

It is definitely possible that I am not interacting with the process correctly, and the above is wrong, but I can't see any way to get past the registration process and into the app without adding all of that information requested.

Mark


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

It would be hard to say what my favorite upgrade is. My wife would probably say adding a fan at the end of the Vee berth. My list if tied winners would be:
1) My current carbon-technora blend AP #3 jib which has a wind range of 3 to 30 knots and which can win even light air races.

Synergy Jib and Main

2) Moving the control line for the backstay and traveler so I can play it from the helm.
Starboard Traveler control Line and Backstay adjuster ,
3) Running the all of the control lines back to the aft end of the house so I can play them more easily when single-handed.
Cabin top stoppers and riser ,
4) Mounting the GPS/Chartplotter on a swivel so I can see it from anywhere in the cockpit.
GPS Turntable Mount

5) The Origo stove and oven


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

colemj said:


> Have you priced a new CQR? Even a used one? The new anchors are much less expensive.
> 
> Mark


I haven't. I just assumed they'd have to be selling for much less these days given the competition. Guess I'm wrong.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

#1 LiFePO4 battery bank
#2 Engine driven and 12V DC refrigeration (best of all worlds)
#3 Espar heat for early spring & fall sailing


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

Jeff_H said:


> It would be hard to say what my favorite upgrade is. My wife would probably say adding a fan at the end of the Vee berth. My list if tied winners would be:
> 1) My current carbon-technora blend AP #3 jib which has a wind range of 3 to 30 knots and which can win even light air races.
> 
> Synergy Jib and Main
> ...


Great upgrades! Thanks for sharing


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

Maine Sail said:


> #1 LiFePO4 battery bank
> #2 Engine driven and 12V DC refrigeration (best of all worlds)
> #3 Espar heat for early spring & fall sailing


I've heard the Espar's are a great addition! They're pretty quiet from what I've experienced on a friend boat. Is that accurate in your experience?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

vessel said:


> I've heard the Espar's are a great addition! They're pretty quiet from what I've experienced on a friend boat. Is that accurate in your experience?


I'll take a stab at this... I am on my second generation of Espar. Older was a D3L and the new one is Airtronic 4. Airtronic4 is more reliable, quieter... can't hear it... and uses less power. I have 3 outlets and it definitely makes Fall use "comfortable". Install is easy. A great upgrade!


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

colemj said:


> Some feedback for @vessel. One upgrade I won't be doing is using your app. It looked interesting so I downloaded it. But the amount of personal information you require just to get past the registration process is way over the top. Not only the usual name, email, and password (OK, you get my honeypot account like others), but a requirement for a picture, as well as intimate details of the boat is too much. It even appears that you might be tracking the position (of the phone, but I guess that is a proxy for the boat) - although it is difficult to tell since I won't go past the registration. There seems to be no way to get pass this intrusive registration to actually see what the app offers. If one tries to dismiss the registration process, they are just taken back into it and told all the information is required.
> 
> I understand the need for boat details in an app designed to track maintenance, parts, etc, and understand if this was personal information stored on my phone only, but to require it for registration to use the app is different. I'm sure you are a good person who would never do anything with that much personal and detail information, but that isn't cool in today's world.
> 
> ...


Mark, kind sir! Thank you for checking out the app. It means a lot to me. I'll send a direct message to discuss further as I think it's most appropriate for this. My intention is to provide a great experience, and the app doesn't collect any location information as of current. If that is desired, it may be added and will have to be approved for each boat. Email, LOA, boat name, a photo, etc, are appropriate features to collect considering it is about your boat. Regardless, I appreciate your feedback and I'll be making updates for the sign up process. I appreciate it!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I don’t want to turn this into a referendum nor a place to promote your Ap.

I don’t think you joined SN for that reason , or a least I hope not. When I saw that I became a little suspicious as others have done that.

I also tried it and like Mark when I saw all the information I had to give even to check it out , I deleted it from my history.

What is wondered was is any part of the ap require any purchase of membership or is it entirely free. BTW I still wouldn’t give all that information out the gate.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

While i sad solar earlier, you know the most important and best dollar wise upgrade i ever have done on my boat is?


It is the 12” thick queen foam/gel mattress i got a few years ago. Nothing you can do on your boat has more quality of life than ensuring a good night sleep! And in my case i5 was cheap at around $400. But yoy should seriously consider this even if thousands of dollars.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that like an autopilot, I consider a good mattress as a requirement and not an optional upgrade. 

We currently have a good innerspring mattress with a memory foam topper, but are getting rid of it because it is heavy and can't be moved to access under it (I think I will need to sawzall it to get it off the boat - I have no idea how it got in the boat). Thinking right now is a quality foam/gel or a sleep number air thing.

Mark


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> I don't want to turn this into a referendum nor a place to promote your Ap.
> 
> I don't think you joined SN for that reason , or a least I hope not. When I saw that I became a little suspicious as others have done that.
> 
> ...


Sending you a private message as I think that is most appropriate


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## vessel (Jul 24, 2020)

Don L said:


> While i sad solar earlier, you know the most important and best dollar wise upgrade i ever have done on my boat is?
> 
> It is the 12" thick queen foam/gel mattress i got a few years ago. Nothing you can do on your boat has more quality of life than ensuring a good night sleep! And in my case i5 was cheap at around $400. But yoy should seriously consider this even if thousands of dollars.


Very good point regarding mattress. We have a more standard v-berth mattress that is actually pretty nice. I've heard of some mold protectors that go underneath mattresses, can't think of the name. Do you use anything on your mattress to protect against mold, etc?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I dont have anything other than a fan than blows air under the mattress , which currently isn't working, for my berth. That issue depends on where you cruise and the temperatures. Since I no longer cruise in cold water that fan not working isn't a big deal.


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## Calmwater (Aug 5, 2018)

vessel said:


> We've been living aboard for the last year and a half and we're frequently coming up with upgrades to create a nice environment to sail and live. I'm curious what upgrade (if something in particular) has increased your quality of life the most?
> 
> For us, it's our upgraded solar panel array. We put two 170 watt flexible Sunpower panels on our bimini and installed a Victron MPPT 100 | 30 Charge Controller. The bluetooth app that we use on our phones for monitoring the solar action in real time is pretty cool.


very much depends on your needs and sailing pattern. Solar is a great upgrade and I already have three panels installed over the transom davit. Just replaced the older controller with a new MPPT. Water maker also came with the boat but I really never needed to use it with 750 liters of water tanks and the changed sailing patterns for me that are max 3-4 days between marinas.

So any one here has a list done and a wish list to be done I would guess. My own most valuable upgrade last year was a new Bimini fully attached to the solid dodger with optional fully enclosed panels and shades.Being well protected from the sun and elements in the Caribbean and now as heading back to New England really expanded my sailing season and enabled a way more convenient cruising in unpleasant conditions.


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## meirriba (Oct 31, 2003)

Seems to me a question with no single answer, it depends on the current sailing mode. At different times we were happy with different upgrades. Doing long crossings I was happy with the radar (AIS as well). Today in Greece, in a marina, about 40 celsius, the A/C. Dropping anchor on seaweed - Spade anchor. 
When going downwind - the gennaker etc. etc. 
On second thought, the best upgrade was enlisting my wife on full offshore skippers ticket course😁


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Many of us I would venture to say the majority on SN aren’t long range blue water sailors or cruisers. We use our boats on weekends, a few couple of weeklong vacations. In our case we average on the high side of 2500 nm a season. 30 - two or three day weekends and 42 other days meaning we may be averaging 100 days per year on our Haleakula.

The miles indicate lots of actual sailing so our major upgrade for our type of sailing was a good quality MFD, AISB and radar as a safety component of our sailing. the ability to plan, forecast, current , identify potential hazards have been made easier than 20 years ago. 

The human comfort factor was the multipurpose canvas/ sun/ insect screens my wife made for Haleakula. We don’t seek the sun s we did in our 20s. The canvas keeps us cool in the heat, keeps the sun off the cockpit at anchor, keeps us dry and comfortable making us more alert in inclement weather, and makes our cockpit area the best “room with a view” for dinner and at anchor. 

To me there should be any value judgements as what others choose as their major upgrade ( answering the OPs question) as that’s what they beleive made their type of sailing safer or more comfortable on their boats for their type of sailing.


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## Jolly Roger (Oct 11, 2013)

I've done many, many alterations and improvements to my schooner, _Britannia,_ over the years. It's therefore difficult to say which would be the very best, but my wife says the electric toilet, which is freshwater flush. No more pumping in the middle of the night, or the stink which comes through the pipes when you first use it. I would also add the twin inflatable matrices on our bed, which are like the sleep-number system, that can be inflated to individual pressures. Our boat bed is better than our house bed.
Oh! I almost forgot the hot tub in the aft bathroom. See.
Installing two electric toilets (schooner-britannia.com)
AFT CABIN (schooner-britannia.com)
installing a hot tube in the aft cabin of a boat (schooner-britannia.com)
JR.


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## Rufus (Jun 18, 2021)

Don L said:


> While I consider autopilot a "must have", because I have had mine die and know the difference of a passage with and without, I guess it is an upgrade.


Agree entirely. Three days off the continental shelf when the bloody thing, new, died. Crew sea sick. On the up side I did lose a lot of weight on that trip.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

More items, summarized from several boats, skipping things others have mentioned:


Downsizing ropes so that they run with less friction (tails bulked up if needed).
Steps (companionway, in cabin, and in cockpit) modified as needed to eliminate those much greater than the 7.5-inch standard.
Wrapping helm in cord or leather. A tiny thing, but it is what you hold on to.
Improved dinghy davit tackle. It should be easy for the smallest crew member, even a child that is old enough to drive it.
Hidden reliability upgrades, such as improved fuel filtration. Not glamorous, but fixing stuff sucks. Also things that make winterizing easier, such as extra valves. Details.
Barberhauler. I am stunned by how many boats lack this and other basic sail controls.


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