# Awlgrip Ruined from Haulout



## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

Looking for some feedback on the attached pictures. Here's the story:

I wasn't present for the haulout, but I am guessing there was no foam pads on the slings. This damage represents gross incompetence in my opinion.

The hull damages are inexcusable; this was a $7.5K awlgrip job completed less than 5 years ago.

Will it have to totally repainted to repair properly? There are 4 areas of damage - one forward and aft on each side of the hull from the lifting straps. I've only uploaded pics of the worst area.

I am going to talk to them in person again, but I was not confident when the owner indicated they would polish/buff the scratches prior to re-launch.

The boat was hauled at a reputable marine yard - they do lots of awlgrip...one would think they'd have know better.

Jason


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## Coreyboy18 (Jun 2, 2008)

*I didn't have that problem...*

...but when he was loading the boat on my trailer he did scratch the keel a little bit on the trailer which is really no problem, it buffed right out. However, there was no padding used to go between the straps and my boat. $7/ft wasn't too bad at all, and $68 to take the mast down.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

Wow. I didn't realize you could buff paint that had been removed. I'm trying to figure out what caused the diagonal scratches.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

jason3317 said:


> Looking for some feedback on the attached pictures. Here's the story:
> 
> I wasn't present for the haulout, but I am guessing there was no foam pads on the slings. This damage represents gross incompetence in my opinion.
> 
> ...


This doesn't look good to me at all. It's as if there was a lot of crap on the straps (perhaps from the previous lift?) Can't blame you for being upset.

Whether it will buff out or not remains to be seen... certainly try that at the yard's expense. Localized repairs to Awlgrip paint jobs are difficult/impossible to do well - even by the experts.

I wish you luck dealing with this.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

It will only "buff out" if there is NO damage to the paint. If the scratches are IN the paint...the ONLY fix is a complete new paint job if the paint is 5 years old. We couldn't even get an unnoticable match on our 1 month old awlgrip when the yard that painted it tried afted scratching it. They re-did the entire side of the boat


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

US27inKS said:


> Wow. I didn't realize you could buff paint that had been removed. I'm trying to figure out what caused the diagonal scratches.


The diagonal scratches are from the lifting straps sliding up to their final positions as the hull is being lifted.


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> It will only "buff out" if there is NO damage to the paint. If the scratches are IN the paint...the ONLY fix is a complete new paint job if the paint is 5 years old.


Yeah, there sure is plenty of damage to the paint; these are NOT surface scratches - 1/16 - 1/8" gouges in the area I showed in the pictures.

I am drafting my letter to the boatyard now....sigh. It is always something.


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## capn_dave (Feb 17, 2000)

*To be honest with you*

I have never heard of foam pads placed on lifting straps. What I do is pressure wash the straps before a lift, if they have any crud on them. Then I have the crew put paper on the straps for extra protection. Ant strap can slip a bit depending on the keel. If there is a fast taper up from the keel, we will allways tie the straps to reduce slippage.

Fair Winds
Dave


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

capn_dave said:


> I have never heard of foam pads placed on lifting straps. What I do is pressure wash the straps before a lift, if they have any crud on them. Then I have the crew put paper on the straps for extra protection. Ant strap can slip a bit depending on the keel. If there is a fast taper up from the keel, we will allways tie the straps to reduce slippage.
> 
> Fair Winds
> Dave


I think the point here is that you do have your crew put SOMETHING on the lifting straps to protect the hullsides - especially with an Awlgripped hull.

The straps were tied, and in fact, the ties created more damage.

Dave, are you saying that the yard should not be responsible for this damage? How would you have handled in your marina? Would you have notfied the customer?


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

*A proper haul technique*

Btw, here is a picture of my boat the last time it was hauled (different marina). If you look closely, the light blue area on the straps are actually foam pads that were wrapped around / taped to the lifting straps. The foam pads were new or in like new condition. (The travelift...well, not so new).

But, the most important thing to note....no damage to the paint using this process.


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## capn_dave (Feb 17, 2000)

*Hello again Jason*

First of all I agree with Cam about touching up Awlgrip. It just wont match. Yes you can buff out Awlgrip. The problem is, you will remove the clear coat and the shine will not last. When Awlgrip is applied there is a clear coat in the paint, as the paint cures the clear coat rises to the surface. This gives the shine. Once the clear coat is removed, no more gloss unless kept waxed. The scratches on your boat are through the Awlgrip. IE no paint there.

At my marina when a customer signs the work order, they are signing a release also. Scratched paint on hulls are excluded from our liability. Now thats not to say that we wont fix scratched paint, I find it better to fix it then argue with a customer. Most are understanding. In the picture of you boat in the lift, I notice the pads. We use carpet along with the paper. It takes about 6 months for Awlgrip to fully cure. We are extra careful.
Remember fenders can scratch Awlgrip. 
As for my boat, I would never paint it. I just had a new gelcoat job done. It gives me piece of mind when I come crashing into a dock and hit that fender board, that I can just buff out a scratch. If It's a deep scratch I can fill it and reapply gelcoat. 
How's that for a political answer. I talked my way around the whole subject and never told you anything.

Fair Winds
Dave


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## 121Guy (May 6, 2007)

*Paint and Travelifts*

Hi Jason,

What I would do is take some before lift out photos and after lift out photos and tell the yard you want it to look like the before pics. If they balk, you may want to get an estimate from a reputable painter and present it to them. You may also want to ask for their insurance carrier and speak to yours as well. Do they spray in that yard? If the paint job is five years old, perhaps they used Awlcraft 2000 instead of Awlgrip. This paint is much easier to work with and touch up. It is still very hard to get a good match though as time and sun change the paint quite a bit.

My haulout drill now for my Awlcraft 2000 painted boat includes always being there when they haul. I am on the deck as the slings are positioned. I pre position 4 thick terry cloth towels which I have put gromets in on top with some small lines tied to the rails in the position of the sling. I make sure the towel sits between the sling and the paint all the way down the hull on all four points. Sometimes the yard has to lower the slings a couple of times before I'm happy. Never had any sling damage since I started this.

Let us know the name of this yard and how you settle up with them.

Good luck,

121Guy


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

I would think any reputable yard would repair the topside paint damage to your satisfaction - doesn't make for good dock talk..
I know some will say Awlgrip cannot be buffed without consequential damage but that is not entirely true. It is better to buff that area(s) rather than repaint them as you will never get a proper color match with a 5 yr old paint job. As far as buffing, it can remove the clear coating which rises to the surface of a cured paint job but if done properly, the loss will be minimal and easily mitigated by application of clear coat. All of which may be moot in that the scratches appear to penetrate through to the glass and gelcoat.


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

capn_dave said:


> Yes you can buff out Awlgrip. The problem is, you will remove the clear coat and the shine will not last.


Yes, that's a non-option in my book. No way. Once the clear coat is burned away...the finish is done...it'll look like crap.



capn_dave said:


> At my marina when a customer signs the work order, they are signing a release also. Scratched paint on hulls are excluded from our liability. Now thats not to say that we wont fix scratched paint, I find it better to fix it then argue with a customer.


I don't argue that point, but it's like taking your car to the automatic car wash...."we're not responsible".

From my perspective, this all boils down to a standard of care that a reasonable person would apply.



capn_dave said:


> Remember fenders can scratch Awlgrip.


Yep...I have fleece covers on ALL my fenders.

Thanks for your perspective, I definitely appreciate it...keeping me grounded!


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

I wasn't present for the haul of my current boat but I did check and there were no noticeable marks from the straps. The yard I used last year had long strips of something like packing wrap that were abut half again as wide as the strap. As the boat was being lifted, they inserted these strips between the strap and hull from below the waterline. This was on a cruddy gray hull on a 1988 boat, so I just assumed it must be standard operating proceedure, Im sure I wasn't getting any special treatment. It seemed to me to be cheap insurance against the kind of issue you have experienced and would save the yard money in the long run. The strips would be good for several hauls and the cost of one paint job would pay for a several season supply.

Good Luck with getting your issue resolved. I hope you can come to an equitable resolution.


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

121Guy said:


> Hi Jason,
> 
> What I would do is take some before lift out photos and after lift out photos and tell the yard you want it to look like the before pics. If they balk, you may want to get an estimate from a reputable painter and present it to them. You may also want to ask for their insurance carrier and speak to yours as well. Do they spray in that yard? If the paint job is five years old, perhaps they used Awlcraft 2000 instead of Awlgrip. This paint is much easier to work with and touch up. It is still very hard to get a good match though as time and sun change the paint quite a bit.


It's Awlgrip....5 coats of Flag Blue + 2 clear coat layers...it was done in winter of 2006.

They do a fair amount of spray here...right now there is a Lyman Morse in the booth, it followed a Morris 36 into the booth...so there ARE competent folk in the shop...but I think the travellift guys were off their game that day they hauled me.

I'm going to give BoatUS a call this week to give em a heads up. I will wait to hear a response from the yard before I go further up the chain...it's my strong desire to handle this privately and amicably...



121Guy said:


> My haulout drill now for my Awlcraft 2000 painted boat includes always being there when they haul. I am on the deck as the slings are positioned. I pre position 4 thick terry cloth towels which I have put gromets in on top with some small lines tied to the rails in the position of the sling. I make sure the towel sits between the sling and the paint all the way down the hull on all four points. Sometimes the yard has to lower the slings a couple of times before I'm happy. Never had any sling damage since I started this.


Yeah, I asked them to call me an hour prior to haul...but I couldn't get out of the office that day. This boat has been hauled at least 4-5 times since I had it painted and never had an issue...it was always well protected from the slings. I'll know better next time.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*I guess..*

I guess you guys have a different view of "reputable" than we do in Maine. That is a hack job and is the most disgusting thing I've seen in a while.

Had they been dredging the harbor with their travel lift prior to hauling your boat? Sorry but it's time to have the conversation and if no luck there a lawyer and a new boat yard..

This is how most reputable yards launch and haul boats. I have never even had a small scratch..


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## Janssen (Jan 27, 2009)

*Awlgrip Scratches*

The marina where I keep my boat (Old Bay Marina in Baltimore) powerwashes the straps and then covers the straps with two layers of heavy 6 mil plastic wrap.

Sailboat bottoms come in all shapes and odd angles and straps do slip sometimes until they settle in. Looks like your marina's straps had sand/gravel or barnacle shells on them. My marina would never lift a boat without washing or covering the straps.

Awlgrip is very difficult to repair - next time have your hull done in Awlcraft, as it can easily be repaired and looks almost as good a Awlgrip. Do not be too hard on your marina - they are lifting many tons with two cloth straps - pretty amazing when you think about it. I very dangerous job for a few dollars per foot!

Dr. George


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

Maine - now that's what I am talking about. Can you send that crew down to the Chesapeake? I mean....that lift actually had tread on its tires!


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## Pub911 (Oct 25, 2007)

I've had good luck with a 3m product called Finess-it. There's a hand and machine version. I used the hand version. But this was on minor scratches that abraded the surface but did not penetrate to the primer. And the paint was Awlgrip II - a bit more forgiving. They buffed out, but did leave a slight 'halo' affect noticable at 3 ft away. 

I'd say get a new paint job from the yard or elsewhere.

How's your insurance - don't forget it's your Ins. Co's job to work things out on your behalf if you're properly covered.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

jason3317 said:


> Maine - now that's what I am talking about. Can you send that crew down to the Chesapeake? I mean....that lift actually had tread on its tires!


Them's snowtires!!!


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## mgmhead (Jan 14, 2007)

Jason,

Don't know you but I know your folks and I recognize your photo of a proper haul-out as being The Sailing Emporium. FYI, they replaced that old lift in July 2008, the new one is bigger and brighter. 

Truly sorry to see what has happened to Compass Rose, I've always thought she was a beautiful boat and I'm sure you'll get her that way again.

Look forward to seeing you on the Bay...MGM


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

mgmhead said:


> Jason,
> 
> Don't know you but I know your folks and I recognize your photo of a proper haul-out as being The Sailing Emporium. FYI, they replaced that old lift in July 2008, the new one is bigger and brighter.
> 
> ...


MGM, thanks for kind words. It's frustrating to have this happen to a boat that was essentailly flawless on the exterior.

I saw the new lift during the 4th of July Fireworks and Changing of the Seasons party. It's a good investment for the TSE, as they will be able to haul bigger/wider/heavier boats now. Art, Mary Sue and Bobby have always been good to my folks (and me) and their work has always been first rate. In fact, I am think about pulling all the winter project work from my yard and giving it to TSE. All depends on how this haulout fiasco goes.

We will be crusing up to Rock Hall sometime over Memorial Day week...hope to see you in the area.

Jason


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Mainesails photos are exacty what I was trying to describe as to how the prepped the slings to haul my boat. That said the travel lift wasn't near as pretty as that one.


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## T37SOLARE (Feb 1, 2008)

Our yard places foam pads covered in heavy duty plastic bags between the slings and the topsides.










Jason, 
Sorry to see the damage they did to your boat, I'm sure your yard will make the proper repairs.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

they trashed your paint job, you will need to have it repainted. anything less will look like crap

File an insurance claim and get boat us to chase them around. then sue them for the deductable and the increase in your premiums.
don't screw around, you'll be sorry


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Don't let any BS you, lifting slings do not ordinarily claw off paint (excuse me, coatings) and that's without any padding being used. If the paint was cured (five years certianly is) and didn't have a radical adhesion problem, ordinary slings would not hurt it.

Those guys picked up a load of carp, probably barnacles and other growth, and they didn't bother cleaning it off before they picked up your boat. Odds are that if you can find the boat that was lifted just before yours--it had heavy bottom growth and the lift operators were simply sloppy.

Now, they owe you a complete paint job, because once paint (coatings! Awlgrip & Imron alike get upset at those of us who still all it paint) has weathered for five years in the sunlight, you'll never match the color up again unless a real maestro is blending it. Hell, even if you buy the paint from two different production runs, it won't match up "new" to "new" six months later.

Let them know they owe you a hull job, NOW, and that if it isn't offered promptly and voluntarily, they can pay court costs and consequential damages for the loss of use of the boat while it is out of service again to haul and repaint it. At a top-dollar yard where they know how to treat a boat.


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

*Letter to Yard*

I sent the following letter to the yard today. I'll post when I hear back.



> February 10, 2009
> 
> Dear [Name Deleted]:
> 
> ...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

good on ya, Jason... good luck


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

jason,
Is that a hole or a big punched in area of gelcoat in the bottom right picture?


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> jason,
> Is that a hole or a big punched in area of gelcoat in the bottom right picture?


It's a thru-hull for the galley sink drain.


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

*Hi-Res Photos*

I uploaded higher resolution photos to Picasa of the damage this morning.

Picasa Web Albums - Jason - Compass Rose


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Great letter; but you forgot something. You will need to re-letter the transom after re-painting unless you allow them to tape off the transom and blend at the corner. If they agree to re-paint the entire boat you will want them to pay for re-lettering the transom.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

You could also define the penalty of loss of use should this go into the season. You can sail the boat with the scratches but once they haul it out in July! for 2 weeks, you have a loss of use during the repairs.


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## DwayneSpeer (Oct 12, 2003)

Here's what I got directly from Chris Wood, the Pacific Northwest Rep for AwlGrip. This was for a very small area done by the boat yard immediately after they painted my hull. The bottom line is any buffing out is really questionable and should only be tried on small areas. The shine for AwlGrip is built in and is easily destroyed by buffing and no wax should ever be used as is will also destroy the shine.

Hi Dwayne,<o></o>
<o></o>
Thanks for the photo.<o></o>
<o></o>
Not as bad as I thought it would be&#8230;&#8230;!<o></o>
Here is a link to a 3M product called Finesse-it II.<o></o>
Try it with a dry, clean soft cloth in a circle motion.<o></o>
This should do the trick. Remember that AWLGRIP paint <o></o>
has the UV protection built into the paint system so try to only put the <o></o>
Finesse-it only on the affected area. If you have any questions do not <o></o>
hesitate to call.<o></o>

3M FINESSE-IT II FINISHING MATERIAL - Rubbing Compounds by Discount Marine Supplies

By the way, I haven't used the stuff yet (Finesse it) cause I'm waiting for some good weather.

In my opinion, nothing short of a new paint job is going to fix the mess up your yard did. In any case you should contact your insurance company and get them on board.

Dwayne<o></o>


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> Great letter; but you forgot something. You will need to re-letter the transom after re-painting unless you allow them to tape off the transom and blend at the corner. If they agree to re-paint the entire boat you will want them to pay for re-lettering the transom.


Good point, and it is something I did think about, but considered to fall under the 'including, but not limited to' clause in my letter.

If we get to that point where they actually agree to do the repair (and I am doubtful), then I will ensure this is specified in the work order.

JS


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

xort said:


> You could also define the penalty of loss of use should this go into the season. You can sail the boat with the scratches but once they haul it out in July! for 2 weeks, you have a loss of use during the repairs.


Agreed, the loss of use (and accelerated decpreciation loss) are both points I will bring to the discussion if we get to that stage in the process.

August is a great time to haul out for work...too damn hot, although i DO have A/C on the boat. As I remember, the August past here in the Chesapeake wasn't too bad...all things considered.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

You can take this issue to your insurance comany, but my experience is that your insurance won't cover your problem. The reason is that assuming you can get your deductible waived (not likely), the insurance company will depreciate the value of the existing paint job to determine your claim value. My company depreciated mine 10% a year, so a they would have valued a 5 year old paint job at 50% of the original cost, and that is what they will pay you, less the deductible. Not a solution!

You may find the yard takes the same approach, refusing to pay the full cost. The winning solution is to get the insurance payment and have the yard pay the balance. You need to disclose the yard payment to the insurance company, since you sign a disclosure when you get their payment, but mine didn't care about the second payment for the same damage.


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

sailingfool said:


> You can take this issue to your insurance comany, but my experience is that your insurance won't cover your problem. The reason is that assuming you can get your deductible waived (not likely), the insurance company will depreciate the value of the existing paint job to determine your claim value. My company depreciated mine 10% a year, so a they would have valued a 5 year old paint job at 50% of the original cost, and that is what they will pay you, less the deductible. Not a solution!
> 
> You may find the yard takes the same approach, refusing to pay the full cost. The winning solution is to get the insurance payment and have the yard pay the balance. You need to disclose the yard payment to the insurance company, since you sign a disclosure when you get their payment, but mine didn't care about the second payment for the same damage.


Interesting, and not really positive info...but SF brings up a good point.

Does anyone else have an opinion / experience here? Under what circumstances would depreciation reduction apply? Comments?

SF - under what circumstances did you have to file this claim, what caused the damage?

I've heard stories where lightning strikes have completely renders a boat's electronic fried....they were replaced with current equipment with only the deductible out of pocket.

I'll keep this in mind as this gets sorted out going forward.

Jason


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

jason3317 said:


> I've heard stories where lightning strikes have completely renders a boat's electronic fried....they were replaced with current equipment with only the deductible out of pocket.


I believe that "replacement cost coverage" is an option for/with some insurance carriers, but AFAIK it's not the normal way of things.


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## georgefmys (Dec 28, 2008)

*Two cents from the other side*

Read this whole thread just now. You are 100% in the right-but not in the drivers seat.The yard guy quoted is not the problem solver-the yard owner is.Unless 'buff out' guy is yard owner,consider a polite,diplomatic and flexible approach with the guy who signs the checks.Suggest meeting him/her at the yard.If this person looks at damage while standing next to you,well...what else needs to be said? Before pics are ok..but assumption is they have not denied that their crew caused damage.Did you bring to their attention right away?When you talk ,not write,to the boss --let him know you are his ally in fixing what is after all just a dumb mistake (WE ALL MAKE THEM) Then show you mean it by letting him outline a plan that allows yard to meet your reasonable requirements without too much pain for them.You were not planning a new paint job-but they cannot give you a five year old one.Offer more than a token amount in compensation payable on completion-if it makes you feel better look at it like great deal on new paint job.DO NOT rub their nose in it you want someone there hopefully the boss in your corner because most people want to help if you ask the right way.


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

georgefmys said:


> Read this whole thread just now. You are 100% in the right-but not in the drivers seat.The yard guy quoted is not the problem solver-the yard owner is.Unless 'buff out' guy is yard owner,consider a polite,diplomatic and flexible approach with the guy who signs the checks.Suggest meeting him/her at the yard.If this person looks at damage while standing next to you,well...what else needs to be said? Before pics are ok..but assumption is they have not denied that their crew caused damage.Did you bring to their attention right away?When you talk ,not write,to the boss --let him know you are his ally in fixing what is after all just a dumb mistake (WE ALL MAKE THEM) Then show you mean it by letting him outline a plan that allows yard to meet your reasonable requirements without too much pain for them.You were not planning a new paint job-but they cannot give you a five year old one.Offer more than a token amount in compensation payable on completion-if it makes you feel better look at it like great deal on new paint job.DO NOT rub their nose in it you want someone there hopefully the boss in your corner because most people want to help if you ask the right way.


Thanks for your reply, George. I did read it twice...

Let's be very clear. I am not rubbing noses, I am trying to get the yard that inexcusably damaged my vessel to acknowlege and remedy the problem. I've clearly asked them to outline their plan, but I've specified my expectations as well.

The ONLY reason I was not planning a paint job was because I had a *first class* Awlgrip job done 2 years ago. Now, through no fault of my own, I am the market for another multi-thousand dollar Awlgrip job

The person I spoke with who suggested that buffing would remediate the problem is the owner of the yard. We were standing 2 feet from the boat. It was after this conversation that I decided a more formal approach outlining my expectations is/was necessary. It is still my desire to resolve privately and in a friendly manner because I believe an honest mistake was made.

I don't agree with your point on compensation.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

jason3317 said:


> ...
> SF - under what circumstances did you have to file this claim, what caused the damage?
> 
> I've heard stories where lightning strikes have completely renders a boat's electronic fried....they were replaced with current equipment with only the deductible out of pocket.
> ...


Jason,
The circumstance was that a yard damaged the finish on my boat, however the yard denied they were responsible...their guilt was not as crystal clear as your circumstance, but they came around after I hired a lawyer and we got a court date.

My take from discussions with my insurance company (BoatUS/CNA) was the a paint job would always be depreciated, I would assume electronics would be an example of something that would not be depreciated...although the net of my experience with getting compensation for my hull damage is to never assume anything relative to how marine insurance works...or doesn't work.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Depreciation terms are only one of many reasons why you can never compare two insurance quotes without a thorough reading of the actual policy. And, checking each renewal quote to make sure they don't try to take it away from you as a silent rate increase.


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## nk235 (Apr 8, 2007)

Oh man reading this thread confirms one of my biggest fears....incompetent people and then the frustration of having to deal with a problem that is really black and white but makes you loose your mind trying to get justice. 

Since I searched for ever to find a "gem" when looking for my boat and I also spend just as much time taking care of her as I do sailing her - also it is not like a new model of a car which can easily be replaced, as much of the work is custom and involved years of changes and modifications to really make it one of a kind.

All of that can go down the drain from having Harry and Marve, twiddle dee and twiddle dumb lift operators doing something like this, or worse drop your boat, or something else. THAN rather than apologize and go above and beyond to fix it, you have to argue with the yard for anything to be done! 

And forget insurance - I mean after paying thousands of dollars to proactively insure your most prized possesion by shelling out money every year for the chance that something may happen -then when something does happen, why should the insurance company do their job and pay? No they will just offer a fraction of the cost (because it is depreciated) and after your deductable and time it took to file the claim, plus time spent on the phone with the adjuster/agent, yard, etc. it is worthless and you still owe are left with the hassle. 

I honestly feel for ya as I would loose it in a heartbeat if this ever happened to me. I just can't stand incompetent people but they just seem to be more abundant day by day....I honestly wish you the best of luck


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Last year when I purchased my boat in Anacortes it was being stored at the Skyline Marina I am still disputing with the yard there about a dent that was a result of some improper strap locations. At first all I got was our employees are professionals and they know where the straps go. Then when I brought up to them hey my appointment was for eleven am and I showed up at 930 ish to get things prepared to put my new baby on a trailer and I was amazed to find my boat just hanging in the travel lift with the straps not in the locations of what I had in my binder that came with the boat. Whenever the accounts receivable lady calls I ask her to speak with the manager and always get told he will call me back. When I have tried to call the Marina to be proactive I never get to talk to anyone that can make decisions. I feel your pain in dealing with a travel lift situation that was not totally up to par. Maybe it was sending them a quote for the estimated repairs in my gel coat that got them to quit calling not to sure......


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

*Follow up - the letter got the yard's attention*

I didn't get a call from the yard. I had to call them. It seems my letter identifying my concern about the hull damage finally got someone's attention.

I went up to check on the boat yesterday after the snow storm. Imagine my surprise when I noticed the yard had buffed the Awlgrip. This REALLY pissed me off, why you ask? I didn't authorize the work. What I did want was a phone call or other response to my communication - but who has the time to pick up the phone these days...quick, get out there and buff out the scratches before the insurance adjuster gets there.

I won't go into the details of the phone call I made today. Suffice to say, the president of the company is being pissy. He is upset about my formal letter to get his attention. I asked him about the buffing and if it was finished (he said it was). So, I am posting a new picture showing the results. They are less than spectacular and not acceptable.

Bottom line, the yard told me to file with BoatUS and have someone else paint it. It sounds like they aren't willing to put anymore resources into this problem.

And what bothers me the most, is that they have yet to apologize for the damage. Just excuse after excuse.

Not sure where I am going from here.....

Let me know what you all think of the 'after pic' (second photo)


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

I thought Awlgrip was similar to Perfection in that it doesn't take kindly to being buffed. You get a short term shine, but as soon as the wax wears off a bit, it looks like hell.

Maine Sail knows all about this stuff, but this is what I've heard.


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

US27inKS said:


> I thought Awlgrip was similar to Perfection in that it doesn't take kindly to being buffed. You get a short term shine, but as soon as the wax wears off a bit, it looks like hell.
> 
> Maine Sail knows all about this stuff, but this is what I've heard.


Yes, I've been told the same. I've also been told that it *is* possible with the right materials. a very professional touch and a bit of luck. The person that told me this is a person I trust in the marine business and does a fair bit of Awlgrip. I worry about losing the shine...but I also don't know a way to prove otherwise than to wait and see.

But, as the pics show, even after buffing, there is still very obvious damage.

MaineSail....you're on the clock. Whatcha think?


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

i have not posted in this thread till now but i have read the whole thing. first that came out a lot better than i ever thought it would. 

my options if me 
get a chunk of cash money from the marina, live with it now until it starts going to crap, use cash to repaint.

second go to your insurance to get it repainted now but inform them its the yards fault. they will paint it and go after the yard for the money.

i would think the yard wont offer you 2 grand to go away, so the second option is what you might have to do.

luckly you have done all the proper stuff including sending the letter to the yard


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## JT1019 (Aug 14, 2006)

Why bother calling your personal insurance claim department when you can call the claim department of the yards liability carrier? If you call your insurance company two things are going to happen; you will get paid a fraction of the cost for a repaint and the insurance company will utilize right of first recovery and subrogate the claim thus resulting in another claim. 

Personally I would recommend you inform the yard that you will be contacting the insurance company of the yard to submit a claim under general liability for the damage done to your boat. Should they want to protect themselves from a guaranteed premium increase they can at this time opt to repaint your boat with nothing claimed to the insurance company. This would be a good time to express that if you submit a formal you will also be asking for any and all expenses associated with this mess and you will also look to be compensated for mental anguish. 

If you run into issues or have questions, PM me. I do this for a living….


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

There's a reason auto body repairers usually paint to a seam - it's almost impossible to feather in a glossy paint finish.

Call your insurance company and find out what they will pay you ((cost of new paint - %depreciation/year*age of paint job) less your deductible). File a claim with your insurer.

If what delta will come out of your pocket hurts too much (remember a new paint job is always worth something...), hire a lawyer and initiate a lawsuit against the yard. After a few letters back and forth, they will offer you a settlement, demand an amount at least equal to your delta.

Get your insurance company's check and hold it. Accept the settlement and cash the yard insurance check.

Cash your own insurance check, and attach a letter to the claim release explaining you have also received a payment from the yard, as a result of your own lawsuit to collect the uninsured difference. Between the two checks you should cover your full cost.

This process is time consuming and a little nerve-wracking, but I have done it myself.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Forget going to your insurance; go after THEIR insurance. In addition; you need to document all of the lay days that the boat is in the yard as a result of this dispute; keep good records and get some more convincing pictures of their "repair".

On a finish that is 2 years old, which could last 20 years if properly maintained, I would accept no more than 10% depreciation. They can't really depreciate it much since the boat was in beautiful condition prior to their crummy haul-out job.

If their insurance refuses to pay then contact both your insurance for assistance recovering from their insurance (but be emphatic that you do not want the claim to go against your policy); or file with small claims court.

I don't know what to tell you about getting your boat back at this point; if you pay the yard fee and have them put the boat back in the water they will want you to sign-off on their "repair". If they scratched it while pulling it out; you can bet that they will do the same putting it back in, so don't let them re-paint it.

Personally I would send a certified letter asking the yard to provide insurance information; and if they don't you will pursue legal action (small claims court; which you would easily win).


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## JT1019 (Aug 14, 2006)

Sailingfool.....You are forgetting that right of first recovery goes to the insurance company. If you were to litigate against the yard the insurance company would place a lean on the recovery for whatever they paid out in indemnity. Chances are you would get nothing.


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## ChicagoNewport27 (Nov 21, 2006)

Wow.

My yard doesn't use any kind of pads or sheathing on their lift straps, either. Maybe I've just been lucky so far, but so far I'ver gotten no damage to my finish from the lift.










More Pictures, here.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

JT1019 said:


> Sailingfool.....You are forgetting that right of first recovery goes to the insurance company. .... Chances are you would get nothing.


Actually I didn't forget that fact, what I did was to ignore it, as I assumed my insurer wouldn't bother going after the yard for a $3000 claim.

I'm not telling you what I WOULD do, I'm telling you what I DID, in a similar situation, to get full compensation for a depreciated painted hull by collecting from two parties for the same damage.

In the letter accompanying my release back to my insurance company I described the yard's payment as compensating me for my legal costs and the part of the new paint job not covered by their payment. Truth is I got both checks were for the same damage, but it provided a veil allowing my insurer to ignore that fact.

PS - small claims may be $1-2000, not much help for an Awlgrip job.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

sailingfool said:


> PS - small claims may be $1-2000, not much help for an Awlgrip job.


Here in California the limit is something like 15k. But yes; good reminder as it does depend on which state you are in.


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## jasper (Dec 30, 2008)

This got me wondering ??? Awlgrip ?? If a boat has an Awlgrip 
finish, and the finish is getting old .. What is the procedure to 
refinish the surface of the Awlgrip paintjob? Is is less expensive 
to refinish an Awlgrip job? Must the paint color be the same? 

thanks


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Oooh, you called Awlgrip "paint", that's a no-no. They'll put you on the ban list and refuse to sell you products, while their marketing ninjas come around to un_paint _your boat.

They prefer to call it a "coating". See their web site for the procedures, probably a solvent or prep wash, a light scuffing, and then re_coating_ with the new product.

But never, ever, do they get involved with paint.(G)


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

A couple of quick updates:

1. The Awlgrip factory rep is driving out Monday to take a look at the paint. I had a good conversation with him last week. Basically, Awlgrip's position is that any buffing repairs immediately void the warranty of the paint and will require polishing with Awlcare at least 2-3x per year.

2. I can't remember if I mentioned before, but the yard did indeed buff the damaged areas last week. Without my permission. So, in my mind, they have minimized the acute damage, but exposed me to tremendous downside and significantly increases my maintenance expenditures.

I'll update again after I meet with the Awlgrip dude.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Without my permission."
Ask the Awl rep to give you something in writing after his inspection, and note that it has apparently been buffed. if you have to get legal (court or lawyers) about this, there's probably a separate cause for damages resulting from any unconsented work on the boat, maybe a criminal trespass charge against the yard. that probably wouldn't be a biggie--but it would be another negotiating point, as to whether you were to press or drop charges. Once you go from civil to criminal, a lot of lawyers will say "Get rid of this fast, pay the man."


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## lbdavis (Apr 23, 2007)

bump. 

Curious minds want to know.


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## jason3317 (Dec 20, 2007)

We did meet with the Awlgrip rep this week and followed up with the yard afterwards. What I am about to write is probably going to surprise most of you following this thread, especially given the pictures and information I've posted. Recall, the yard did buff the hull.

Amazingly, the Awlgrip factory technical sales rep inspected the repair and pronounced it suitable. He spent 30-45 minutes with us, closely inspecting the paint, both in the buffed areas and adjacent areas. He found no signs of heavy handed buffing: no scratching, no swirl marks, etc. The rep very clearly stated that he felt with proper care (and application of Awlcare polish), the paint would wear evenly. I can't say I agree, but I also have no ground to argue against this opinion.

Now, there is still some damage around the bootstripe. The yard has agreed to repaint the stripe at their cost. They are also going to clean and polish the entire hull, after which there will be a final evaluation of the repairs. I was pleased they did finally admit their error and take some responsibiity.

In the end, I had to make a decision to accept the judgement of the Awlgrip rep and the offer of the yard, or likely face a long drawn out battle with lawyers and insurance.

I am satisfied....for now, but I am reserving judgement until the Awlcare polishing has been completed. I suppose we truly won't know until a few months down the road. If I have a hull that looks like a checkerboard...I know that I made the wrong choice.

If you guys have more specific questions, I didn't answer, post em up and I'll fill in the details.

Jason


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Amazing. They're the experts (Awl)...but was the guy willing to make his statement in writing, in any way? I'd believe him completely--if he was willing to make it formal.

I've heard too many folks say "I never said that" even when you play back the tape that proves they did. (Funny how that happens, these are the events that eventually MADE me a cynic. You collect two dozen boxtops from smiling liars, send 'em in, and you get back your card-carrying-cynic card. Honest.)


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I have to think that coming out on the RECORD that Awlgrip can NOT be repaired buy anything other than a compleat repaint is not in THERE best interest


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## orient (Jul 5, 2004)

After reading this post I checked with my yard. They do about 12 Awlgrip hulls a year and are next door to the factory. First they where surprised to hear Awlgrip has a warranty. The yard doing the painting is the warranty. Also, they see no problem with a light buffing and have never seen it require more Awlcare applications.


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