# World sailing without a (US) passport



## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

I'm not sure if this would be better in the Off Topic / politics section or here.

But anyway, let's say that some time in the future, for reasons that would belong in the politics section, that the United States becomes becomes hated world wide. The anger is so wide spread that if you travel to a foreign country you will likely have serious problems. Maybe the customs people won't want to let you in, or will steal from you. The citizens will hate you, much like the Japanese Americans were treated by Americans during World War II. They may justify stealing your boat and everything you have as payment for the crimes of America.

This may be a bit exaggerated ... or it may not be. The anti-American sentiment is already quite bad in some places. I know some missionaries in France back when there were all the protests against the Iraq invasion who were talking about how if they moved to this one other country that they should "hide their American passports and just be completely French". I think these feelings have worn off somewhat since then. But we haven't had any major foreign policy related events, like new wars, since then either. Well with Iraq most people were not directly affected, yet they were still quite upset. Just like how we don't protest wars when there is no draft, since they aren't directly affected. If another war starts, or some kind of economic trouble occurs which affects the rest of the world and affects the people directly, or at least America is blamed for it, then everyone will be affected directly, so I would expect many times more outrage against Americans. There are other things too, which belong in the politics section, but should the rest of the world learn of these crimes, the world's view of America could become quite bad, much like we thought of Nazis during WW2.

So, are there any poor impoverished places where you can go where they don't really care about passports and stuff, or a small bribe will take care of it? I'm not really concerned with being able to get in to the wealthy socialist and economically isolated places that have duties on imports where people typically like to go, like North America, Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and so on.

How hard is it to get a foreign identity?

If worse came to worse and I just wanted to be able to go somewhere, or if I just wanted to fell some freedom for a while, aren't some very remote northern areas where I could go and never see anyone else, at least not from the government. Maybe like up North in Canada. The opposite of this spectrum would be a populated impoverished place where nobody really cares if you come, since everyone is trying to leave. So that's why I was thinking the problematic places would be those which are economically isolated, have a minimum wage, and where you don't find people making $1 a day.

Any thoughts?


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

You could buy yourself a conch republic passport and travel the world. If fact if you are down in key west people compare their Conch passport for who has the most country entrance stamps.​​






*Citizen Passports*
 
*Diplomat Passports* 
 

*CONCH REPUBLIC PASSPORTS* 

<!-- 
*Currently the only "authorized On-line source" is:*

*Conch Republic Passport Control* 
*613 Simonton Street*
*Key West, FL/CR 3304**0*

For more information on obtaining a Conch Republic Passport in person during your next visit to the Conch Republic, please contact:

 *O**ffice of the Secretary General*
*613 Simonton Street*
*Key West, FL/CR 33040*
*Phone305) 296-0213*
*FAX: (305) 296-8803*


http://www.sailnet.com/forums/passport-application.pdf
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/passport-application.pdfhttp://www.sailnet.com/forums/passport-application.pdf


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## craigtx (Oct 16, 2009)

Once religion rears it's ugly head why would anyone want you.
Drop that and enjoy but then again we have the money.


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

*Don't worry*

I think you overlooked something important...

With Obama as our leader now, there is no need to worry about International relations. Now that he has apologized to the world for our behavior, the world will love us. There will be no more hate or war.

We are the world~~~~



steel said:


> I'm not sure if this would be better in the Off Topic / politics section or here.
> 
> But anyway, let's say that some time in the future, for reasons that would belong in the politics section, that the United States becomes becomes hated world wide. The anger is so wide spread that if you travel to a foreign country you will likely have serious problems. Maybe the customs people won't want to let you in, or will steal from you. The citizens will hate you, much like the Japanese Americans were treated by Americans during World War II. They may justify stealing your boat and everything you have as payment for the crimes of America.
> 
> ...


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

This thread clearly needs to be in the very off topic area... 

Yeah... just pretend you're Canadian.. (rolly eyes emoticon here). 

Good lord, just be yourself. It works wonders regardless of your passport... assuming you're not a jerk. The world actually likes Americans to get out and about... it's much better for them. Xenophobia just isn't good for anyone, including us.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm going to try and stay on topic and not take the political bait. You seem to be asking about the comfort and security of sailing to other countries as an American Citizen. Keep in mind that 99% of Americans can only see or learn how they are perceived through the media. People will watch a flag burning and, most importantly, the intersected commercial, long before an interview with an 80 yr old Frenchman whose town was liberated from Nazi occupation by the Americans. That's a marketing fact and news programs have to make money. Even PBS has to engage its viewer to send money. News has become widely separated from information in America, it is now primarily entertainment.

Before I go on too long, my point is that most of the planet has and continues to admire American citizens and/or our way of life, even if they take issue with our government. This was the case during the height of what we perceived as anti-American sentiment. The American people have been played like marionettes for political purposes. Add the world's people who just don't care and you're going to drop in to most parts of the world without issue. If you travel to experience other cultures, even if you don't prefer them, you'll find it very comfortable. If you travel to defend our policies or way of life, I guarantee you will find an argument wherever you go, whether you are a conservative or liberal.

I wouldn't sail to the middle east right now any more than Japan in the 1940s. There will also be hostile third world countries for the remainder of our lifetimes. Visiting some of them can have less to do with what country you're from than what wealth you have with you that can be taken.

Go in peace my friend and you'll enjoy every minute.


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## lydanynom (May 26, 2010)

World opinion of the US has improved a lot over the last few years, but we are still pretty low on the list of nations that aren't just outright crazy. Hmm, or maybe we are at the very top of the list of nations that _are _just outright crazy. ;-)

At any rate, I think trying to use a shady passport would cause you more trouble than it avoided.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Speaking as a military member who has traveled to at least 18 different nations, I tell you that "absence of a passport" will not prevent you from being identified as a U.S. citizen.

I was a submariner, not an Army guy with crew cut hair so I was pretty non-descript looking. When abroad, I avoided denim jeans and other clothes and behaviors that blatantly identified me as an American, and no matter where I went, or what I did, I was instantly identified as an American.

Whether in Belgium, Norway, or Bahrain or the United Arab Emirates, it didn't matter. When I would ask these people how they knew I was a U.S. citizen, the answer invariably was that it's in our body language. U.S. citizens are often proud (or arrogant if you prefer), and it shows in how we carry ourselves, the way we walk. As soon as you open your mouth and speak to interact with someone, that only seals the verdict. We don't exactly sound like any other nation either.

All not having a passport will do for you, is make it more difficult for you to invoke any protective agreements between the U.S. and the host nation that you might be able to take advantage of.


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## donradclife (May 19, 2007)

I would much rather have an American or other first world passport than one from some poor third world country. Take a look at the immigration requirements for most countries--if you aren't from the first world then they want advance visas, which can be almost impossible to get.

Even in the middle east, we were made welcome by almost everyone. You are viewed as individuals, as they know that you are not responsible for the policies they detest.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> When I would ask these people how they knew I was a U.S. citizen, the answer invariably was that it's in our body language. U.S. citizens are often proud (or arrogant if you prefer), and it shows in how we carry ourselves, the way we walk. As soon as you open your mouth and speak to interact with someone, that only seals the verdict. We don't exactly sound like any other nation either.


When I travel abroad, I recognize Americans miles away. We are fat and talk loud. 

Back to topic:
I think Canadian Citizenship is most easy to get. You can buy your citizenship for about $300K, may be more now.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

I would still have a US passport, at least for now, but I am just wondering what would be best if the situation arose where one wanted or needed to not be known as American and not use the passport.

What if in the future there is some requirement to get a US passport where you have to have some vaccine or some other intolerable thing is required? Or if they start a no passport list like they have with the no fly list. I'm just planning ahead.



> Take a look at the immigration requirements for most countries--if you aren't from the first world then they want advance visas, which can be almost impossible to get.


If I go to a non 3rd world county, I'll use my US passport. If I obtain a passport from some poor country, as long as I am going to another country which is even less desirable than that one then it should be easy to get in shouldn't it?

I don't think being spotted as American will be a problem for me.


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## Guero (Dec 29, 2009)

Speaking as a Canadian expat in Mexico, there was a few americans that lost their mast while sailing from Texas in a storm down to Progreso, Yucatan. Long story short, they never got any hate. They were very nice people and never saw any hate toward them. 

Also, one expat guy we sold our ex-boat to a few months ago in Yucalpeten, Yucatan, is from Texas and really enjoy his company.. a great guy .. And I'm French Canadian. Stereotypically speaking, you would think a French Canadian and a Texan couldn't get along.

It's all about individuals, not how your government rules your country. Did I despise the bush era? Yeah, to some extent, did I hate Americans in general? No. I hate ignorant people, and that goes for people of all country, no matter what your nationality is. 

Sail with your US Flag proudly. As I do with my Canadian one. Just don't forge the courtesy flag 

my 2c


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

steel said:


> ...what would be best if the situation arose where one wanted or needed to not be known as American and not use the passport.


Then you would have to become a citizen of some other country, and get a passport for that country.

If you are hoping to become "a man without a country" and just travel around the world without any passport... Sorry, ain't gonna happen. Not in today's world. Every country that I know of requires you to have a passport from SOMEWHERE before they will allow you to enter.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

We met many American yachts. Always very friendly - helpful, kind and generous people. Saying this - most yachty's are (as I have been raving on about in another thread)

Its usually the local people who are inconsiderate enought to get up your nose. So to the OP, you'd be welcome. As others have said - politics never, never are a topic discussed on a beach bbq - its things common to all yachty's such as anchorages, toilets!, homemade repairs/modifications, people we met - it is a small world.

The things we all seem to hate are (local) Govn regulations, which try to 'control' our free way of life, genset owners, cost of marinas etc etc - never a particular nationality.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Steel, just curious, have you travelled or lived abroad at all? Seems you're worried about things that just don't really warrant much concern at all. As others have alluded to, just turn off the TV, get your passport, and go travel. Again, assuming you're not an obnoxious jerk, you'll find the world a much more welcoming place than the media likes to paint... Fear drives ratings. That's a fact. It's corrosive. When you start to paint your worldview through their eyes/interests, myopia is the most common result.

I say all this having spent most of my adult life outside of the US. I didn't think much about being American or not, showed my passport when required, and in the end, have two hometowns, one in the US, and another abroad. I truly love both places to the point that I would fight for and defend either. The geography, the people, friends, loves, language, culture, stories... the whole deal. Home is where you are. Where you're born is part of who you are... no sense denying it. The trick is not letting it blind you to the possibilities of other places and ideas. Over time, you're formed by both your native culture and that of your adopted land. Life is rich if you don't fear it.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

I've been travelling on business for 31 years, mostly southeast Asia and the Indian sub-continent.
Once you get past the bureaucrats, military and other assorted functionaries, I've found everyone else to pretty much alike - interested in providing their families with food, clothing and shelter and a better life than they had.
Paul


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

Nicely said puddin.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

Well there were several reasons, not just people hating Americans, for why I was wondering how I could travel if for whatever reason it is I don't have or couldn't use a US passport. That's all I was really all this was about.



puddinlegs said:


> Steel, just curious, have you travelled or lived abroad at all? Seems you're worried about things that just don't really warrant much concern at all. As others have alluded to, just turn off the TV, get your passport, and go travel.


Yeah I have. I remember back in Paris around '02 or '03 there were people yelling at Americans and stuff, if they knew you were American. There was a bit of a sudden upset because of the invasion of Iraq. There were people with signs (like down with America or whatever they said) and protests everywhere. Of course that wasn't that bad, and it wore off pretty quickly. I don't know what it's like in the Muslim countries currently. Now from the Americans I knew in France back during that time, there WAS CONCERN about Americans traveling to certain countries. So it is quite real, but I admit that it wasn't that bad.

Right now everything is fine again, everybody pretty much doesn't have a problem with Americans and likes us as was said in so many of the replies on this thread.

But if the American government does something else, the anger could be a lot worse, especially if it is something that affects the people directly. It's probably a long way out and I don't know if such a thing will happen. Most people here probably don't travel to any Muslim countries anyway so you wouldn't know. If something else happens, maybe it won't be the Muslims who are affected. It doesn't take much get people angry if they do so as a group.

*Has anyone here been to Turkey since Iraq was invaded*


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

steel said:


> ...I remember back in Paris around '02 or '03 there were people yelling at Americans and stuff, if they knew you were American...


Yes, we really blew that sweet deal they had, secretly bypassing the embargo, IIRC. No wonder they voted in the UN against invasion.

On topic, I've found people very friendly everywhere I've been. And I wear jeans and talk loud (it's a hearing thing, too many years flying small planes).

Regards,
Brad


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

When I was on the shuttle bus between terminals at Charles DeGaulle several years ago, a really rude, pushy American "junior executive" got on the shuttle and bullied the poor Moroccan driver into changing his route for the American's convenience. That was embarrassing to me; if the ass had asked me at that moment if I was an American I would have said, "Je ne parle Jerk." On the other hand, just a little later my wife was helping a couple of folks who spoke neither French nor English, and everyone including the airline folks was way cool with that and appreciative. 

One problem with trying to travel without a passport might be that some 2nd/3rd world officials might be willing to take a bribe to look the other way -- but they'd see you as someone with a huge lot to hide (criminal, terrorist, smuggler, etc.) and as being extremely vulnerable to blackmail -- so they could really take you to the cleaners. And any law enforcement types would find you really "fascinating".

Having said that, some countries are more liberal about recognizing dual citizenship than the USA. If you can qualify, that's a pretty legitimate way to have an alternative to a USA passport.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Steel, here's a funny anti-American story... I was around 16 and transiting through Germany to Austria. A young German guy roughly my age sitting in the same compartment puffs up his chest and asks,"why did you kill all the Indians?" I couldn't resist... "I don't know... why did you kill all the Jews?" "But I didn't kill any Jews." "Good. We're even. I didn't kill any Indians... let's have a beer." 

I was also outside of the US for 9/11 and the start of GW II. 9/11 was met with sympathy from friends. I was living in Canada during the start of GWII and heard a lot of very nasty anti-American rants. I was very conflicted. I had friends in the air, yet I was also very much against our involvement. I was indeed upset with those who went further than simple anti-war talk when it started to get into the "I hope the f****'s all get killed. I didn't take it personally, but certainly let the party know that hoping for anyone's death was pretty sad. In the end, my friends are my friends. Life went on. If you have a thin skin, then you'll need many passports. Just remember that many of them have mandatory military service that comes with the package, not to mention the lack of a real legal system. Good luck!


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I don't think I would want any other passport because there are actually a lot of people that like Americans and America. Also membership has its privileges, think US consulate if you are in trouble. People will judge you based on your actions once they get to know you. I think posing to be from one country when you are from another might lead people to suspect you. You need only to show your passport entering the country after that you can claim to be from wherever you want.

However when traveling Europe post-college I was often tempted to sew a Canadian flag on my pack as i was so embarrassed by the behavior of my fellow Americans, Not that I did not see plenty of Swedes, Brits and others make asses of themselves. The behavior of the average 20 year old American was just something I did not want to be judged against. Fortunately since I was often traveling alone I was often guessed to be German, even got invited to stay with a family for Octoberfest.

Here one of my favorite "Ugly American" memory.

I was walking through a lobby of nice Swiss hotel. My guess is I could survive for week for what it would cost for one night in this hotel. 

This sorority girl at the desk asking "How much for a night here?'
When the person told them how many Sw Francs it costs.
She said "No! in real money"


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## radovix (Jul 29, 2000)

Funny thread indeed...

I am Italian and I LOVE U.S. AND the Americans the more I know you the more I understand that you are the best people in the world.
(in any place you go, except for NY and Los Angeles you let the people feel at home, that is the reason why you have so many immigrant  )

BUT....but the post is correct...Americans ARE hated in the world.
That because of a huge anti-American propaganda (also in Italy...now) that depict U.S. as responsible of all the problem of the world.
Why? 
Because the most of the country are ruled with a "socialist" bias...that means they have a mafious system that profit from Gov. subsidies on all.

So better to depict USA as a greed capitalist state where the people die because no one has an hospital who care you if you have not an expensive insurance.
(they forgot to tell you that in Italy you are forced to pay the double of a US insurance for an half health care)

So no one will ask of the wasted or stolen money.

A last suggestion....if you are concerned of that you can take an English Curse of English spoken in England and pretend to be a lobster....

Is not patriotic, I know, but this is my best idea.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that most other countries, while they may hate the US as a country, generally their citizens have few, if any, problems with individual Americans. A lot of my foreign friends would shake their heads and ask how/why our government was so screwed up... but didn't blame me for what our government did... It has gotten better now that GWB isn't in the White House, but it is never all that good.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

sailingdog said:


> I'd point out that most other countries, while they may hate the US as a country, generally their citizens have few, if any, problems with individual Americans. A lot of my foreign friends would shake their heads and ask how/why our government was so screwed up... but didn't blame me for what our government did... .


This is basically what I said earlier. Is true, although I am not getting into making any comments about your politics or politicians.

Bring tourist dollars this way. SD would have to fly over, the little thing he sails could be scary outside the bay.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Heck even Oprah is welcome down here. 

Look while St Anna is right and we can tolerate a loud American or two at a especially if they do buy us a beer, we are as a nation very very mutlihullist. 

Those things bugger up an anchorage in no time at all and despite the fact that we make a few of them ourselves we all know that it is Un-Australian to have more than one hull 

I think it is actually our 8th amendment??


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

radovix said:


> I am Italian and I LOVE U.S. AND the Americans the more I know you the more I understand that you are the best people in the world.
> GOD BLESS AMERICA!


GRAZIE!!!

I truly appreciate and agree with your post.

Paul


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

steel said:


> Yeah I have. I remember back in Paris around '02 or '03 there were people yelling at Americans and stuff...


HUH!?! I was in Paris for Christmas of '03. As usual, everyone we met was very friendly, helpful, and considerate.

Now, the French do like to protest, and they do like to put on a good show when the press is around. If you only saw the protests on TV then you might think that they hate (or hated) Americans. Deal with them one-on-one, though, be polite and friendly yourself, and in all my visits to France I have never found them to be anything but wonderfully nice people.

I just really think you're worrying about nothing.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> I'd point out that most other countries, while they may hate the US as a country, generally their citizens have few, if any, problems with individual Americans.


Excellent point! It seems to me that most of the people I've met in Europe do not take their politics nearly as "personal" as a lot of Americans do. They can hate American policies, and hate what the president is doing, but feel not even the least bit of animosity towards individual Americans.

Here in the U.S., to the contrary, we seem to think that if we don't like Obama's policies then we have to hate the man. I was always quite surprised at the very personal level of hatred a lot of Democrats would express towards G.W. Bush.


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

steel said:


> *Has anyone here been to Turkey since Iraq was invaded*


Turkey is a NATO member, and yes.

Edit: Americans are welcome almost everywhere, especially here


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

you can always join the french foreign legion, after your service they will give you a passport with any name you want on it. but then instead of being hated you might just be considered a snob. a snob with lots of wine and cheese....


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## nasomi (Sep 13, 2010)

I can almost see the point to OP's concern. While things are ok now, and we're generally received nutrally, that can change in the future. However, you probably won't have a problem unless you are in military garb, and in the country we're invading, unless you are just that big of an a-hole.

Sure, the US caused a lot of the problems in the world, but we also provided pretty much every solution, and so much more. Enjoying that internet you're using?? 

As long as you don't go marching down the street yelling "I AM AMERICAN", you shouldn't have a problem. Then again if you did that when from any country you probably would have a problem before long.

Also, I have found one thing that works wonders: Don't go places you aren't welcome.


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## ffiill (Jul 15, 2010)

Sorry but find this an odd topic however there are those lucky individuals like my step daughters who have dual nationalities.They were born in NZ so have both NZ and UK passports.When entering NZ or Australia or working over there they use their NZ passports.
When entering the UK they use their UK passports.
As to obtaining forged passports there was a programme recently shown on UK TV which was scary!
Basically an undercover journalist from an Arabic background offered to see how many passports she could collect in 28 days and use them to enter countries such as the UK;US;Germany;France etc..
Firstly she managed to get passports UK;US plus all European ones and gained entry into the UK with all of them by land;sea and air!
When using ones that were forgeries of a poorer quality she picked her mode of entry to match-so she would avoid airports.
Many of the passports were quite genuine-the forger would be given the personal details and picture of the person requiring the passport.They would then go out and look for someone similar without a passport who they would then pay to apply for the passport by post substituting photographs.
What the forger then ends up with is a totally real passport other than the wrong picture!


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## ffiill (Jul 15, 2010)

Oh by the way http was written by an Englishman!


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## nasomi (Sep 13, 2010)

ffiill said:


> Oh by the way http was written by an Englishman!


Perhaps, but he lives in the US!


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

ffiill said:


> Sorry but find this an odd topic however there are those lucky individuals like my step daughters who have dual nationalities.They were born in NZ so have both NZ and UK passports.


Lucky in more ways than one.

Do I know your children, I watch the Americas cup, which boat do they sail on? If I was to have another passport I think it would be NZ, nobody hates New Zealanders.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

jephotog said:


> Lucky in more ways than one.
> 
> If I was to have another passport I think it would be NZ, nobody hates New Zealanders.


Ozzies, Poms, Frenchy's and South Africans do when we play against them in a Rugby match!!


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

*maybe we take ourselves too seriously?*

Funny, I sailed into Cartagena, Colombia recently. The check in was smooth, and everyone very friendly. But interestingly, I got grilled when I flew back into Miami! I felt like a criminal suspect. I understand that there are drug problems in Colombia. But being born in Texas, having served in our military during Viet Nam, and living my whole life here, I was pretty pissed at the way I was treated by my fellow Americans after returning from a cruise to another country.

OBTW, the Bumfuzzles said that the Kiwi's were the nicest people they had ever met!


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