# Budget Cruising/Bluewater Cruising



## Cruisingdad

Budget Cruising​
Given the discussions in another thread regarding cruising (especially bluewater cruising) on a very tight budget, I thought we might take a stab at putting together a list of what would be the BARE MINIMUM of: boats, gear, education to cruise with at least MINIMAL SAFETY.

I think this will provide some good insight into the realities of cruising on a budget and the things we have to have and want to have. I hope it will force us all to consider those things that are critical systems and may, in effect, force us to turn back time to a day when many of the gadgets we take for granted were not available.

I would like this to be an open discussion. I think those with experience living aboard, cruising, and being offshore will provide the best insight. Be conscious of the advice you give, because there may be many that will read this and follow it.

Going offshore, or into the water at all, can be risky business. Best to go prepared. Maybe putting all of our thoughts together we can figure a way to do it on a budget.

Thanks.

- CD

PS THis is the first of what may be several neccessary edits in our discussion:

A boat that will be good for cruising North AND South America. A boat that can make the jump to Bermuda. A boat that can make a minimum 5-7 days at sea with at least MINIMUM SAFETY. I also want to discuss the gear required to do that. The boat is only a piece.


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## Sapperwhite

Cruisingdad said:


> Budget Cruising​
> Given the discussions in another thread regarding cruising (especially bluewater cruising) on a very tight budget, I thought we might take a stab at putting together a list of what would be the BARE MINIMUM of: boats, gear, education.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> - CD


Bigger is not always better. Only get as big a boat as you or your cruising partner can handle single (god forbid anything happen to either of you).

Overly small and simple may be just that. It takes a certain amount of skill and knowledge to make any voyage be it coastal or blue water.

Know how to nav. by paper. Electrical problems happen at the worst possible time. KNOW PAPER CHARTS.

Race boats are well fit for the race marks, cruisers are well built for cruising. My boat will never race and a small J will not likely cruise. Know your boats purpose and use/exploit it. Buy a bay boat if that is your dream, buy a blue water boat if that is your dream, buy a racer if that is your dream. Crossing the lines dramatically is seldom successful.


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## Cruisingdad

I will not be able to provide a lot into what makes the best boat to go on, as I opt for more of the creature comforts a small boat would not be able to handle.

Things that are important, in any bluewater/cruising boat, in my opinion, are:

1) Tankage. THis is especially true for water.

2) Good seaberth.

3) LOTS of storage, with a lot of that being below the waterline. We take a lot of can goods... others may not. But there will be many things you carry that add negative stability if above the waterline. This will likely be more of a factor on a small boat.

4) A well draining cockpit. I have been pooped once, and should have been who knows how many times before that. I think this is imperative as the time it happened to us were were only 24 hours/120-130 miles from shore. 

5) Some method of cooking. I would probably put this as a critical system. 

6) Decent lazarette for sails and gear.

7) Windvane or autopilot or the ability to put it on. You cannot make a passage without it if you are singlehanding... at least not safely. I would put this as a critical system too.

8) A SOLID, DRY Cabin with high-end portholes and hatches (the latter if going offshore).

9) Deep bilge and an electric bilge pump. I feel the latter is a mandatory - though this will require a battery. I guess the elctric bilge pump could be debated??? Thoughts?

10) VHF? I feel a handheld is the very minimum. However, could it be debated that you have to have a base unit?? The power/receive will be vastly better. Thoughts? This requires a battery.

11) Intl/Colreg recognized lighting. Mandatory... but could you get buy with a solid white light powered by lamp oil?

12) Sextant, and the ability to properly use it.

13) Charts... paper, not electronic. 

14) Radar reflector. I feel this is madatory. Others will dissagree.

I am trying to think of a way around batteries, and an engine. I think you can get by without an engine. I am not positive about the batteries. Unfortunately, if you have a battery, you are now forced into a way to charge it. THat means solar (expensive), wind (unreliable and marginally expensive), or an engine (which now is maintenance, weight, fuel, spare parts, etc).

THoughts???

- CD


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## sailingdog

*Sailor Preparation:
*
I think that education is probably the most important part of the three. Without a proper background and skills, trying to go bluewater in a budget boat is going to be be far more dangerous than it would be otherwise. Also, they need to have some pretty solid sailing experience IMHO.

*The Boat:
*
The next most important thing is having a good boat with solid bones. Some boats are far better suited for this than others... some good pocket cruisers include: most of the small Alberg designs: Cape Dory 25, Pearson Ariel, Triton, Alberg 30, etc. The Albin Vega, Southern Cross 28/31, Elizabethan 31, Flicka, PSC Dana 24, Westsail 32, and Bristol 29.9 are also good choices.

Some small multihulls that would be good choices are the Heavenly Twins 26, Catalac 8m, and the Iroquois. Some of the Cross, Piver and Brown designs are quite good, but most were home built, and will probably have construction and durabilty issues, so I'd avoid them unless you have special knowledge of them. 
*
Boat Gear:*

IMHO can be relatively minimal. This is especially true on a smaller boat, since it won't have the ability to support a lot of the more complicated systems found on larger boats. It also doesn't make sense to stock up on expensive systems that aren't well suited to the pocket cruising lifestyle or mentatlity.

*Books:
*
John Vigor's book, _*Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere*_ is a good starting point for anyone thinking about doing this. The Pardeys have written quite a bit about this, and I'd recommend their books and Don Casey's *The Sensible Cruiser* as starting points for the budget cruiser's library. Thomas Firth Jones's *Multihull Voyaging* is a good book for those interested in budget cruising in a multihull.

*Navigation Gear:*

Paper charts, a GPS, hand-bearing compass, dividers, parallel rule, pencils, binoculars are a minimum.

While I'd agree with most of what CD said, I think the lighting depends on what size boat you've got. A masthead tricolor is probably a necessity for offshore work, and deck level lights for in-hoarbor/coastal work.


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## Plumper

Sextant? I think we are long past the sextant era.
Bringing a sextant (very expensive) requires all the appropriate books (very expensive) and the knowledge to do the calcs.

I'll take a boatload of GPS receivers first. Cheap, no books, no calcs, better accuracy, works in all lighting and weather conditions.


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## Cruisingdad

A GPS requires batteries. It is something else to fail. Given the minimum amount of space, money, and other saftey gear, I elected to take it off of the mandatory list.

The truth is that you can get a handeld lat/lon gps very inexpensively. However, what if it fails offshore? You have a backup? Backups start costing money. What if you got swamped? 

I do not want this to turn into another sextant thread. I carry one on my boat, but I am not one of the people that advocates it either. I feel a solid gps and backup(s) are the way to go... but I am not budget minded. I am thinking bare minimum. 

Would you still opt out of the GPS in place of a... Cape Dory 25, for example??

Thoughts?

- CD


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## Cruisingdad

To back up what you said, SD, I would put good seamanship above almost anything. That takes a lot of time to develop and, in theory, costs nothing.


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## sailingdog

Non-chartplotting GPS units are relatively cheap... you can get two or three for the price of a sextant, and many can be powered by both AA batteries and the house bank on the boat, with a proper power cord.


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## Cruisingdad

sailingdog said:


> Non-chartplotting GPS units are relatively cheap... you can get two or three for the price of a sextant, and many can be powered by both AA batteries and the house bank on the boat, with a proper power cord.


A house bank requires batteries. Can you think of a way around the batteries? Under 7m, maybe? Is there a suitable bluewater boat under 7m?


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## sailingdog

Yup... Seamanship is key to bluewater sailing on a small boat. I wouldn't say a Drascombe Lugger is a particularly good choice as a bluewater cruiser, but Webb Chiles was able take one 3/4 of the way around the world in a near circumnavigation.

Actually, technically, it was two Drascombe Luggers, since one got confiscated in Egypt.



Cruisingdad said:


> To back up what you said, SD, I would put good seamanship above almost anything. That takes a lot of time to develop and, in theory, costs nothing.


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## Plumper

The fact is that most of us would work out our sights with calculators anyway. That saves us having to carry the volumes of books needed but brings the battery problem back. If you are going to carry a calculator (or even a flashlight) then several $100 GPS units are much cheaper than one reasonable sextant. 
Turn on the GPS at dawn, take a fix, do the same at noon, do the same at evening twilight, one set of batteries will last weeks. 
The sextant needs:
either books or a calculator (batteries)
accurate time (batteries) or a SW radio (batteries)
Knowledge
Practise
Clear skies and a steady deck
and even then you'd be lucky to get within two miles.


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## sailingdog

The Flicka is under 7 meters. The West Wight Potter is probably also a fairly solid little boat that could work as a pocket cruiser, and is definitely under 7 meters.

Many of the small GPS units have such a low draw that they could easily be powered by a small solar panel. In fact, the GPS 76's DC power via the NMEA port will take power from sources ranging from 3 VDC to a maximum of 48 VDC from what I remember reading. The specifications for the older NMEA power inputs had that range, and the second generation ones were good up to 36 VDC IIRC. So, you could actually power it off the panel directly, without the need for voltage regulation, since most panels are about 18 VDC. Having a small battery charging would take care of the need to power the GPS at night.

BTW, another way to do it would be use something like a Voltaic backpack. I got one for Christmas, and think it rocks.










The Voltaic backpack has a small Lithium Ion battery, which charges off the solar panels. The battery outputs 5 VDC and would power most small GPS units.  


Cruisingdad said:


> A house bank requires batteries. Can you think of a way around the batteries? Under 7m, maybe? Is there a suitable bluewater boat under 7m?


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## billyruffn

Cost of sextant: Astra III, $575 (a decent, reasonably accurate instrument), or a Davis ~ $130 (a good "learn to do it" instrument, but for nav'n???)
How to book: $15-30
Nautical Almanac: $36
Sight Reduction Tables / Pub 229: $20 / each 15 deg of Latitude
Calculator to work out the sight: $300 ???? (but this is optional)

Satisfaction of knowing how to do it and getting it right: PRICELESS

VERSUS

3 Handheld GPS's from West Marine (Garmin 72): 3 X 130 = $390
36 AA batteries in value pack from Home Depot = $13

---------------

From the economic standpoint, I think the GPS wins (for safety sake -- take one of the GPSs, wrap it in Al foil, put it in a gallon size ziplock bag with 8 AA batteries, vacumn pack/shrink wrap the entire package and put it somewhere where you won't lose it). Put one of the two remaining GPSs in the drawer in your nav station. Use the third GPS. By the time they all go south on you, you'll be dead of old age or ready to sell the boat.

But, if you're a true old salt....there's nothing like a sextant -- everytime the sun shines or the stars are out (and the deck stops moving) you'll know where you are, at least within a couple of miles, that is.


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## Cruisingdad

Plumper said:


> The fact is that most of us would work out our sights with calculators anyway. That saves us having to carry the volumes of books needed but brings the battery problem back. If you are going to carry a calculator (or even a flashlight) then several $100 GPS units are much cheaper than one reasonable sextant.
> Turn on the GPS at dawn, take a fix, do the same at noon, do the same at evening twilight, one set of batteries will last weeks.
> The sextant needs:
> either books or a calculator (batteries)
> accurate time (batteries) or a SW radio (batteries)
> Knowledge
> Practise
> Clear skies and a steady deck
> and even then you'd be lucky to get within two miles.


I agree with what you are saying for me. Look back in some older threads and you will see what I feel!!! But I am trying to think of a really, minimalist way. Using your example, the knowledge is "free". A calculator can be solar powered or run off the batts it has for a very long time. I actually use a wind clock on my boat, but even a cheap digital watch at walmart seems to never want to die (tongue in cheek). So you could avoid the batteries and the GPS. Maybe take both... and the Sextant for the backup. The key is practice with the sextant... most definitely agree there.

But lets say he got the flika, could he do without the batts? The engine? WIthout that, you have removed a LOT of other items that must go with it. You could use oil lamp lighting.

THoughts?

- CD


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## camaraderie

Minimum for safety:
1. Lifefraft...certified and accessible. 
2. All SOLAS requirements for safety gear. 
3. Tethers/jacklines
4. A great anchor with rode you can handle.
5. VHF w/ dsc + handheld for ditch bag. 
6. At least 3 handheld GPS's + batteries. 
7. Paper charts for intended route and all "bailout" ports
8. Method for long distance communication & weather gathering: satphone or SSB/HAM.
9. Ability to repair: sails/rigging with spares or fix/patch. Plan for steering without rudder. Ability/plan to patch minor hull damage.
10. Large Manual Bilge pump and spares kit. 
11. Full tool kit + rigging cutter

??Others?? Disagree with anything except GPS??


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## sailingdog

Billy-

If you're going to be storing a GPS for long-term backup, I'd highly recommend going with the Energizer Lithium AA batteries, since they have a much longer shelf life. As a bonus, they will run the GPS about four times as long as regular alkaline AA batteries and are bit lighter to boot. 

There are long-term nautical almanacs that are just a bit more expensive than the annual ones, but are good for 20 years or more.


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## Cruisingdad

I dissagree with the SSB/Ham and the liferaft. I would not leave home without them... but he could. He will have to have a tender anyways. I did not mention that... or much of the other gear neccessary.

I understand WHY you included the SSB/Ham and Liferaft, but they are not imperative to making the trip, and in some level of safety (assuming he really watches his ports, weather, and his boat does not sink!!).

Could you exclude them, if budget minded was the key?

- CD


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## Plumper

Regarding no engine, it is certainly doable but what a chore. The margin of safety drops by a huge chunk. Think of all the races you've been in where there wasn't any wind (or little wind). You are completely at the whim of tide and current. Here is a nightmare I lived. The Vic-Maui race to Hawaii started but because of foul tides and no wind it took us days just to get out of sight of land. It was nerve wracking being set on the rocks having to anchor when we got pushed near shore, waiting for the right wind to sail off the anchor.

I think one would end up out ahead of the boat in the dinghy rowing fairly often if you didn't have an engine.

There are some busy ports that won't let you sail in. Victoria and vancouver for example have restricted sailing areas. If you don't have an engine you gotta get a tow.

How many of the berths that you have been assigned could you have gotten into under sail?

Engines are pretty much necessary in this day and age.


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## sailingdog

The Liferaft is optional IMHO. Too often people step down into a liferaft and die from doing so and their boat is later found floating along quite happily after being abandoned.

I'd definitely agree that SOLAS-grade safety gear is the way to go. SOLAS flares alone are not that much more expensive than USCG-approved gear, but are an order of magnitude better.

I don't agree that you'd need a satphone or ssb, but do need a HF receiver at a minimum. Many small boats, *especially ones on a budget*, can afford the electrical load and cost of a small HF receiver but not that of a satellite phone or SSB/HAM radio. A good alternative might be the SPOT Messenger, since that would at least allow you to send a "I'm Okay" message to friends and family in the case of a delay in passage or inclement weather.



camaraderie said:


> Minimum for safety:
> 1. Lifefraft...certified and accessible.
> 2. All SOLAS requirements for safety gear.
> 3. Tethers/jacklines
> 4. A great anchor with rode you can handle.
> 5. VHF w/ dsc + handheld for ditch bag.
> 6. At least 3 handheld GPS's + batteries.
> 7. Paper charts for intended route and all "bailout" ports
> 8. Method for long distance communication & weather gathering: satphone or SSB/HAM.
> 9. Ability to repair: sails/rigging with spares or fix/patch. Plan for steering without rudder. Ability/plan to patch minor hull damage.
> 10. Large Manual Bilge pump and spares kit.
> 11. Full tool kit + rigging cutter
> 
> ??Others?? Disagree with anything except GPS??


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## Plumper

camaraderie said:


> Minimum for safety:
> 1. Lifefraft...certified and accessible.
> 2. All SOLAS requirements for safety gear.
> 3. Tethers/jacklines
> 4. A great anchor with rode you can handle.
> 5. VHF w/ dsc + handheld for ditch bag.
> 6. At least 3 handheld GPS's + batteries.
> 7. Paper charts for intended route and all "bailout" ports
> 8. Method for long distance communication & weather gathering: satphone or SSB/HAM.
> 9. Ability to repair: sails/rigging with spares or fix/patch. Plan for steering without rudder. Ability/plan to patch minor hull damage.
> 10. Large Manual Bilge pump and spares kit.
> 11. Full tool kit + rigging cutter
> 
> ??Others?? Disagree with anything except GPS??


I don't think the SSB/Ham or Satphone is critical. You really just need an SW reciever for the weather. Most of the time there is no-one to talk to on SSB or Ham anyway and it places a huge demand on power.


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## Sapperwhite

The traditional vs. electronic nav thread is a complete volume that has already been done to death. (can someone post the link.....I'm too far in the bag).


Whatever your budget, think minimal with ease of replacement and maintenance. What will it cost you to get where you want to get, and maintain your lifestyle once there. Think worst case scenario, if that doesn't happen then you have more boat bucks in the bank to make it last longer. Don't get caught up in what the sailing mags say you "must have". But don't under do it.


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## Cruisingdad

Sapperwhite said:


> The traditional vs. electronic nav thread is a complete volume that has already been done to death. (can someone post the link.....I'm too far in the bag).
> 
> Whatever your budget, think minimal with ease of replacement and maintenance. What will it cost you to get where you want to get, and maintain your lifestyle once there. Think worst case scenario, if that doesn't happen then you have more boat bucks in the bank to make it last longer. Don't get caught up in what the sailing mags say you "must have". But don't under do it.


I agree, but this is not a trad vs electronic thread - though I feel it will likely turn into one in many repsects. It has to, I guess.

SD and Plumper,

I agree about the engine, but it has def been done without it. I feel the engine also adds the safety aspect of getting run over by freighter because you cannot get out of the way. We have ALL felt like that.

You could avoid ports that require an engine and opt to anchor in a safe area and do the rest by foot.

I know this is hard for most of us to fathom (believe me, I am the solar/electronic KING), but I am trying to really decide what is necc and what is not absolutely necc while still keeping some margin of safety. Of course, what that margin is varies for each of us... which is why this is an open discussion.

Good discussion so far.

- CD


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## Cruisingdad

I am heading out for the evening. Catch up with any replies in the morning. Thanks for everyones participation.

- CD


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## camaraderie

OK...so take of the SSB and SatRadio. Buy a transistor SSB receiver for weather forecasts. 
Add an EPIRB and keep a liferaft...many boats are found floating...and you don't hear about the ones that sink! You can rent a liferaft for passages or buy a used one or a catamaran. 
If you are willing to say "if the boat sinks...I don't want to be rescued and will not call for help. Then skip them...but I thought this thread was FRUGAL/Minimal cruising...not death wish cruising.


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## Cruisingdad

camaraderie said:


> ..but I thought this thread was FRUGAL/Minimal cruising...not death wish cruising.


HAHAHA! Funny.

- CD

PS THat lil EPirb just cost 700-800 bucks. And if you are dead set for a recevier, the realities just jumped a lot more than that.


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## Stillraining

*For me*

even the idea of minimalist... is hard to do away with a 25 watt base unit VHF and basic running lights...We are talking 1 battrie here ...and one small trickle charge solar panel/controller to keep it up ( 200.00 )...

1) Ships dont see small boats..its our job to inform them were there..
2) Other boats cant see us without lights...yes kerosene has worked for ever but were not talking anchorage lights here were talking get em on be seen get em off type durations here... or for coming into a port...all very short duration activities... 
3) I have yet to fall in love the the smell of spilled raw fuel or its dangers on a boat... A well placed, secured and vented battery is far safer for a single handledler then messing about with kerosene in route...if you want that for anchoring thats a whole different kettle of fish and I'm ok with that...

I think we have come to an age where trying to do with out the bare minimalist 12 volt system is akin to setting off in the wrong boat...

Some modern devices make our lives *So* much so less encumbered that doing with out is masochistic...to the expense of proving a point only..

A fully charged Group 31 will unofficaly power 16 hours of LED running lights and make 10-2 min 25 watt VHF transmissions with out a recharge spread over the time frame of a 30day ocean crossing...with no demands or attention from its owner..other then sitting quietly in its snug dry compartment...


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## sailingdog

CD-

I never said I was against an engine... I'd agree that an engine can be considered vital to safety. 

I'd add a survival suit if you're boating in colder waters... especially if you have a liferaft and monohull sailboat.


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## Plumper

Cruisingdad said:


> SD and Plumper,
> 
> I agree about the engine, but it has def been done without it. I feel the engine also adds the safety aspect of getting run over by freighter because you cannot get out of the way. We have ALL felt like that.
> 
> You could avoid ports that require an engine and opt to anchor in a safe area and do the rest by foot.
> 
> I know this is hard for most of us to fathom (believe me, I am the solar/electronic KING), but I am trying to really decide what is necc and what is not absolutely necc while still keeping some margin of safety. Of course, what that margin is varies for each of us... which is why this is an open discussion.
> 
> Good discussion so far.
> 
> - CD


I sail on a very basic boat. The only fitted electric things onboard are lights, VHF radio, sounder and autopilot. I have two 100 amp house batts and a 50 amp solar panel that keeps everything running just fine. 
For portable stuff I also have three handheld GPS units, two handheld VHF radios, a 5W HF Ham radio in a dry box, a laptop and a 20 amp battery that I charge from a cigarette lighter type plug in. I use the 20 amp batt for my laptop and HF radio.
I also have a Personal Locator Beacon type EPIRB for when sh*t really happens. I spend my summers cruising between Victoria and Alaska, prefering the more remote areas. Besides a good sailboat (with an engine) and a practical dinghy, that is about all I need.


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## danielgoldberg

*First of all ...*

I think anyone even thinking about crusing or going offshore should be required to participate in a cruising rally to Bermuda first. Preferably from New York. I think that should be required as a matter of law.   

Kidding aside, I don't think you can do this in the way folks are looking at it. I think you first need to start with the budget. Actual dollar amounts. From there you make choices. One of those choices by the way could include working for another month or year until you have enough money to buy things you view as necessities.

Plus, unless you have more information on what the plans are you can't have this discussion sensibly either. That is, what you need to live on the hook and float around the Florida Keys will be very different than if you want to do the same thing in the northeast, or if you want to do it in the Bahamas, or if you want to cross oceans, or be in the Med, etc. Posing the question this way is like asking how much money does one need in life? You can't even start the discussion unless you also ask/know, "for what?"

And the notion of being unable to afford a handheld GPS, to me, means you can't afford to do this activity. No chance you can own a boat, go cruising, and live life if you can't afford $150 for an item that has been the single greatest safety improvement ever to hit the boating world.

Just my view. Don't mean to be a downer.


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## Plumper

danielgoldberg said:


> I
> And the notion of being unable to afford a handheld GPS, to me, means you can't afford to do this activity. No chance you can own a boat, go cruising, and live life if you can't afford $150 for an item that has been the single greatest safety improvement ever to hit the boating world.


Nicely put! Kinda like not being able to afford a watch.


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## Omatako

In support of traditional stuff, a good quality barometer and efficient manual bilge pumps. Whilst I agree with earlier posts on the value of electric pumps for quick evacuation, using buckets in a bilge when your power is gone SUCKS.

Also I have and use a sextant but as a hobby. I have gone 3 weeks without being able to get two intercepting position lines and resultantly no fix. So I support the "box full of h/h GPS units" approach. And by the way SD, I know that sight reduction tables last for years (in fact they never change) but I've never seen almanacs that last for years. Where does one get these? I replace my annual edition every second year.

And I also support the need for an engine! There are many places where currents set onto rocks/reefs and if the wind dies, effectively so do you. And the refusal of entry into ports under sail is also becoming more and more evident world wide. HOWEVER. . . I recall reading about a flash storm that hit the coast of Mexico years ago and several boats were blown/washed ashore and the only one to survive was one without an engine because he took no chances with the weather forecast and was gone before the $h1t hit the fan. Go figure.

Andre


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## sailingdog

I'd agree, a good manual bilge pump, or better yet, two, one in the cabin and one in the cockpit, make a lot of sense and beat the snot of out of using a bucket...

Omatako, I know the sight reduction tables don't change... and never said they did... The nautical almanacs do... I was given a small book, which unfortunately is on the boat, so I can't tell you who publishes it, and it is a set of tables that are supposed to be good for 50 years IIRC, from the date of publication. I've checked it against several of the on-line almanacs and it seems to be kosher. One company publishes a book that has the sight reduction tables and a five-year almanac in it called the "Complete On-board Celestial Navigator", which was most recently published in 2007.


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## Freesail99

I am reading this thread with a lot of interest because if my health holds out, this is something I will be doing this year. But I have to ask, is the line between cruising and bluewater that fine, that everyone gets confused or hung up on it ? To me cruising as an east coast sailor means, taking the ICW south to the Caribbean. It doesn't mean heading out to the Panama canal to some south sea island. That is bluewater.

I think I've read 2.5 pages of GPS vs. Sextants. I got it now, I hope everyone else has also. This is about budget cruising. So the questions I ask are: How are you charging your batteries ? Budget cruising to me means anchoring out not getting slips in a marina. What kind of rode and anchor are you using ? What about your windlass ? How about budget provisioning ? What about budget entertainment ? If your cruising your living on your boat 24/7. Also is budget cruising outfitting the boat or sailing her ?


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## Cruisingdad

danielgoldberg said:


> I think anyone even thinking about crusing or going offshore should be required to participate in a cruising rally to Bermuda first. Preferably from New York. I think that should be required as a matter of law.
> 
> Kidding aside, I don't think you can do this in the way folks are looking at it. I think you first need to start with the budget. Actual dollar amounts. From there you make choices. One of those choices by the way could include working for another month or year until you have enough money to buy things you view as necessities.
> 
> Plus, unless you have more information on what the plans are you can't have this discussion sensibly either. That is, what you need to live on the hook and float around the Florida Keys will be very different than if you want to do the same thing in the northeast, or if you want to do it in the Bahamas, or if you want to cross oceans, or be in the Med, etc. Posing the question this way is like asking how much money does one need in life? You can't even start the discussion unless you also ask/know, "for what?"
> 
> And the notion of being unable to afford a handheld GPS, to me, means you can't afford to do this activity. No chance you can own a boat, go cruising, and live life if you can't afford $150 for an item that has been the single greatest safety improvement ever to hit the boating world.
> 
> Just my view. Don't mean to be a downer.


I am trying to keep this generic because everyone's budget will be different. In essence, the questions are: What are the BARE MINIMUM things you need to do bluewater cruising. Though there are many aspects of bluewater in the carribean, I am not sure I would consider that blue water.

Another thought to ponder in this debate is what would b required to be cruising coastal. Coastal would be defined, to me, as no more than 5 days at sea to any leg and possesing the ability to sit out to ideal weather conditions.

All others,

It would seem to me, to this point in our discussions, that battery power SHOULD be required. In theory, it COULD be done without it, but it takes away too much of the safety aspects and does not meet the requirements of at least 'Minimal Safety'. As such, I would likely consider taking a Sextant, but would do so with a gps (multiple GPS).

Given the requirements of a battery system, you will need a way to charge it. I am not convinced that doing so with simply a small solar panel will meet those minimal safety requirements either. I have a very large solar array on my boat, and I will tell you that on cloudy days, their output drops considerably. Several days of this could render a small battery bank and small solar panel useless.

With BUDGET cruising in mind, is that still the best way to go, or would you consider an engine a neccesity also? THought?

- CD


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## camaraderie

Free...at least for the USA...the coastal cruising life down island on the East Coast and the West Coast cruise down to Baha and beyond epitomize the cruising 80% of cruisers will do. 
The biggest difference is of course the sturdiness of the boat required...but you are right about MOST folks needing discussion of things other than life rafts and sextants for THEIR cruising plans. On reflection, it seems that much of this entire site is dedicated to in depth discussions of the individual decisions that must be made on anchors and rodes and batteries and (dare I say it?) solar power etc. 
I'm not sure one thread has any hope of covering this topic without going off in a zillion different directions.


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## Plumper

camaraderie said:


> I'm not sure one thread has any hope of covering this topic without going off in a zillion different directions.


I think you are right. Just the difference between an east coast coastal cruise and a west coast coastal cruise is significant. The challenge (if frugality is the most important thing) is to define where the cruising will happen and to limit yourself to the gear and boat that facilitates that cruise.

One could do the ICW in a canoe (and it has been done) but the west coast would be a little more difficult. You could paddle north (from Seattle) to Alaska in a Kayak (and it has been done) but going south would be much more challenging. Defining the objective is critical.


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## Jeff_H

This is an interesting thread, and one that I would like to participate in but I don't have time this morning. The only thing that I do want to say, is that it is crazy to include boats like Cape Dory 25, Pearson Ariel, Triton, and Bristol 29.9. Have any of you ever actually sailed these boats?. These are not good seaboats. They are not even good sailing designs. Frankly, a J-24 is a far more seaworthy, better engineered design and tracks better than a Pearson Ariel. Sheez guys! What are you thinking? 

I see these kneejerk suggestions but dog gone it folks, these boats fail on some of the most basic categories; stability, storage, heavy air sailing ability, strength, and downflooding. Sure you can modify these turkeys to get them to a level where with a lot of luck, pluck and skill you can take them distance cruising, but with all of the better choices out there, why do these keep showing up? 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Plumper

Jeff,
There is no boat that has a bigger downflooding problem than the J24. There are many stories of them sinking while racing because of the poor locker design and downflooding.
http://www.myc.org/Using Club Boats/sinking_of_12.htm
http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/articledetail.html?lid=17880
http://www.j24class.org/IJCAForums/tabid/72/forumid/5/postid/5/view/topic/Default.aspx

Kinda throws cold water on your "far more seaworthy" J24.


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## Freesail99

I don't think this thread should be about boats or if the J 24 is more seaworthy. This shouldn't be about mine is bigger then yours. Yours may be bigger, but if mine has been more places, who wins ?


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## Plumper

On the other hand, the Bristol 29.9 seems to get very good reviews:
http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/sail/bristol29.9.asp
and, according to Wikipedia, Ariels have been far and wide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_Ariel
So, while the J24 is a great little class racer, it is not well suited for ocean cruising. Even while racing, caution should be exercised to avoid sinking.


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## Plumper

Freesail



Cruisingdad said:


> Budget Cruising​
> Given the discussions in another thread regarding cruising (especially bluewater cruising) on a very tight budget, I thought we might take a stab at putting together a list of what would be the BARE MINIMUM of: boats, gear, education to cruise with at least MINIMAL SAFETY.
> 
> - CD


I note the "bare minimum boats/safety" aspect of the original post. The J24 fails to meet that criterion in my opinion.


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## Cruisingdad

I doubt Jeff was suggesting the use of a J24. In fact, I know he was not. I think he meant there are better boats than those listed. 

I realize this is not a easy thread. It is very difficult for me too as I much prefer cruising in comfort. But there are still the very basics that you need to go anywhere. I realize certain destinations will change this (a good example being bahamas/florida versus Pacific NW). In many respects, this is hypothetical, but I hope that in reading the debates aomongst those of us that have cruised, lived aboard, and been offshore, others that have not done this will gather a better appreciation for what is involved; as much about what not to do and take as what to take... and why.

And let us not forget my favorite adage: I would rather take a Hunter around the world with an experienced crew than take a Valiant across the gulf with an unexperienced. And I still hold to that saying today. In essense, the captain (you) make the difference more than any boat or exelctronic or piece of gear. However, there are boats and gear that will complement that experience and provide a much (MUCH) safer venue in which to pursue those destinations. The latter is in fact what this thread is focused on.

- CD


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## Cruisingdad

Plumper said:


> Freesail
> 
> I note the "bare minimum boats/safety" aspect of the original post. The J24 fails to meet that criterion in my opinion.


Absolutely, positively. He is not suggesting that the J24 makes a good boat to cross oceans on... he is saying that the other choices presented are not ideal either. At least that is my understanding.

- CD


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## Plumper

Perhaps his choice of the J24 as a good example was wrong. I like to think that if I was going to run off to sea on my own a Contessa 26 or a Vancouver 27 would be the frugal choice for me. Although they lack the agility of around the cans boats like the J24, they would carry you safely to the ends of the earth and back. Both are widely available and cheap like borscht.


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## thesnort

I think Jeff was making a joke.


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## JohnRPollard

I think boat and gear choice depends largely on intended route and destinations. A coastal/ICW cruiser can get away with a less robust boat and a lot less safety gear than a boat heading across oceans to distant shores. When I think of serious budget cruising, I usually assume folks will stay coastal, maybe with some island hopping, in order to keep the costs down.

There is a really good book for folks taking that approach: _Sailing Big on a Small Boat_ by Jerry Cardwell. There are many different small boats of sound design that can be minimally upgraded for budget coastal cruising, and I believe this book mentions a few of them and how to approach the upgrade on a tight budget.

For any kind of long distance coastal "minimal" cruising, I would want a boat with standing headroom, cooking facilities, and an enclosed head with holding tank. And I would prefer a boat with an inboard engine (preferably diesel). But if your budget won't support that kind of boat, there are quite a few outboard-powered boats that would be fine for coastal work. I would want that outboard to have battery charging capability, though.

Some obvious choices are the Catalina 22 (porta-potty), 25, and 27, but there are many many others. One boat that often gets overlooked is the little Beneteau 235. It uses interior space very cleverly (note the enclosed head that also converts to a nav station):

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...Length=23&No=0&ftid=0&man=beneteau&slim=quick


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## Jeff_H

I am in no way intending to suggest that a J-24 makes a good offshore cruiser. Boy, did that get misread. 

My point is that the Pearson Ariel is far less suited for distance cruising than a J-24 and no one in thier right mind would ever suggest that a J-24 was suitable as an offshore pocket cruiser, at least not without a whole load of modifications that would cease to make it a J-24. 

I don't care that someone has somehow been lucky enough to take one of these ill suited boats offshore and actually survived. I have previously described the Austrailian that I met in Miami back in the 1970's who managed top sail all the way from Australia in a rotting plywood sloop with a deteriorating concrete ballast keel and no modern charts to speak of. People have jumped school busses on a mortorcycle, but it doesn't make any of this options an even reasonably good choice if one wants to doing something that has a reasonable degree of risk. 

And I still suggest that you spend some time on these boats before suggesting that they make a good choice given the wildly better options that are out there. In my mind the example given of a Folkboat or a Contessa 26 is just one good example of a better suited option. 

That is my point.
Jeff


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## Cruisingdad

JohnRPollard said:


> I think boat and gear choice depends largely on intended route and destinations. A coastal/ICW cruiser can get away with a less robust boat and a lot less safety gear than a boat heading across oceans to distant shores. When I think of serious budget cruising, I usually assume folks will stay coastal, maybe with some island hopping, in order to keep the costs down.
> 
> There is a really good book for folks taking that approach: _Sailing Big on a Small Boat_ by Jerry Cardwell. There are many different small boats of sound design that can be minimally upgraded for budget coastal cruising, and I believe this book mentions a few of them and how to approach the upgrade on a tight budget.
> 
> For any kind of long distance coastal "minimal" cruising, I would want a boat with standing headroom, cooking facilities, and an enclosed head with holding tank. And I would prefer a boat with an inboard engine (preferably diesel). But if your budget won't support that kind of boat, there are quite a few outboard-powered boats that would be fine for coastal work. I would want that outboard to have battery charging capability, though.
> 
> Some obvious choices are the Catalina 22 (porta-potty), 25, and 27, but there are many many others. One boat that often gets overlooked is the little Beneteau 235. It uses interior space very cleverly (note the enclosed head that also converts to a nav station):
> 
> http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...Length=23&No=0&ftid=0&man=beneteau&slim=quick


Let's requalify this a bit. A boat that will be good for cruising North AND south America. A boat that can make the jump to Bermuda. A boat that can make a minimum 5-7 days at sea with at least MINIMUM SAFETY. I also want to discuss the gear required to do that. The boat is only a piece.

I hope that helps in our discussions. I will edit my original thread as such.

- CD


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## blowinstink

Daniel makes a strong suggestion about begining with a budget and / or an itinerary. Once you do that, other aspects of this discussion become clearer. For instance, the engine / no engine and batteries discussion becomes largely moot. The most frugal crusing budget is almost inevitably going to lead to a small full keel production boat from sometime in the 1965-80 range. It is no great stretch to find such a boat with a serviceable engine. 

Perhaps its best left to another thread, but how would you budget for what you would consider an acceptable minimalist crusier for yourself. I think the thread thus far has made clear that we all have different standards and that cruises that were unquestionably seamanlike have been made with less than almost all of us would go with today (read early Moitissier or any of the dozens of crusining accounts from the 1940-60's where engines were more likely to be deep-sixed than fixed and where GPS EPIRB and modern rafts were unheardof) for a 12 month Carribean cruise and what would you need for a budget? 

I think I could happily cruise the carribean for 12 months on 20K worth of boat and equipment, what I am not so sure about is the expenses along the way. You'd begin with a boat for about $10K (with some bargain hunting this should be enough to purchase a basic but solid full keel pocket crusier of well proven pedigree choices from CD27, CD28, PSC25, Albin Vega or any number of earlier boats of similar heritage). 

It is after that when, to my mind, the discussion becomes really interesting. How do you use 10K to equip and outfit a basic crusier and after you do, what does your 12 month budget crusing budget look like? 

One random thought: postulating that a life raft is unlikely to save you in storm conditions which overwhelmed you well-found boat, I wonder if an EPIRB and an inflatable dingy don't equal a liferaft? Obviously you'd like both, but I think an epirb and a dingy might be an acceptable seamanlike abandon ship strategy.


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## Plumper

I'm taking a little heat here today..........
I could also run off in a Folkboat or one of its many derivatives.


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## Plumper

blowinstink said:


> I wonder if an EPIRB and an inflatable dingy don't equal a liferaft? Obviously you'd like both, but I think an epirb and a dingy might be an acceptable seamanlike abandon ship strategy.


That is what I currently like to think of as my escape pod. I am a PNW wilderness cruiser and I am not worried about storms sinking my boat. I worry about semisubmerged objects like logs and containers and uncharted rocks and my bailout is a dinghy and EPIRB. I think if I was to venture further offshore I would consider a survival suit as critical as well.


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## Cruisingdad

You can safely cruise without a Liferaft; you cannot safely abandon ship without one. I agree.

I also agree with Plumper that I am less concerned about weather conditions so bad that it sinks my boat... but more concerned about the reality of hitting something and holing the boat. 

I have restated the conditions on what the cruising is. I hope that helps to solidify the boat selection as well as gear at least somewhat.

- CD


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## sailingdog

Many long distance sailors I know don't carry a liferaft. They'd rather stay with the boat, and in some cases have made their boat as close to unsinkable as possible. Given the rather high rate of failure of packed liferafts and some of the disasters that have happened when getting one repacked, I think that having a liferaft is not necessarily a good thing. 

Yes, there are boats better than the Ariel and others I mentioned... The Contessa 26 and other folkboat descendants come to mind. However, as this thread is focussed on budget bluewater cruising, the boats I listed previously are among viable candidates for the task at hand. 

I would recommend spending money on a Jordan Series Drogue over a liferaft. IMHO, it is far more likely to save your life and boat than a liferaft is to save your life. 

A lot of it depends on what particular bluewater cruising you'll be doing. Are you talking about going from the East Coast to Bermuda or from the West Coast to Hawaii, circumnavigating the globe, doing a Pacific loop, an Atlantic loop, or what. Hopping the Islands down in the Caribbean isn't going to take the same kind of boat as cruising up the west coast of the Americas, or going from NY to the Azores. 

If you're talking about cruising the Caribbean, it can be done in relatively small craft, rather safely. I know of at least a few people that have made the journey out to the Caribbean in boats like Compacs, Sea Pearls, West Wight Potters, and even a Mac 26.


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## Freesail99

> *Budget Cruising*
> 
> Given the discussions in another thread regarding cruising (especially bluewater cruising) on a very tight budget, I thought we might take a stab at putting together a list of what would be the BARE MINIMUM of: boats, gear, education to cruise with at least MINIMAL SAFETY.


I may be getting hung up on verbiage but the opening lines of Cd's thread are above and if I read it correctly he refers to bluewater cruising in other threads, not this one.



> However, as this thread is focused on budget bluewater cruising, the boats I listed previously are among viable candidates for the task at hand.


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## sailingdog

Freesail-

This thread that CD started is supposed to focus on Bluewater Cruising on a tight budget... so the boats will tend to be relatively small, the equipment rather spartan and the seamanship of great import.


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## camaraderie

Jeff_H said:


> The only thing that I do want to say, is that it is crazy to include boats like Cape Dory 25, Pearson Ariel, Triton, and Bristol 29.9. Have any of you ever actually sailed these boats?. These are not good seaboats. They are not even good sailing designs..... but with all of the better choices out there, *why do these keep showing up?
> *
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


Jeff...maybe one reason is that John Neal's Mahina list includes ALL the CD's and ALL the Bristols...(no mention of any Pearsons below 35' though!)


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## Stillraining

*Glade to hear it:*



Freesail99 said:


> I am reading this thread with a lot of interest because if my health holds out, this is something I will be doing this year. But I have to ask, is the line between cruising and bluewater that fine, that everyone gets confused or hung up on it ? To me cruising as an east coast sailor means, taking the ICW south to the Caribbean. It doesn't mean heading out to the Panama canal to some south sea island. That is bluewater.
> 
> I think I've read 2.5 pages of GPS vs. Sextants. I got it now, I hope everyone else has also. This is about budget cruising. So the questions I ask are: How are you charging your batteries ? Budget cruising to me means anchoring out not getting slips in a marina. What kind of rode and anchor are you using ? What about your windlass ? How about budget provisioning ? What about budget entertainment ? If your cruising your living on your boat 24/7. Also is budget cruising outfitting the boat or sailing her ?


I hope your health hold out also...I am farther away from cutting loose the lines then I was yesterday..One of my daughters needs 5k for something she wants to do for a career path...

I like your questions... 
I will get hammered on for my answer Im sure probably not from you though...

I believe what we are talking about here is two completely different personality types with more or lees a common cruising mindset. Not all but most I would call "Free spirits" One worked hard to enable him or her self the ability to set off in whatever boat they want ( with in reason ) with a residual income producing investment funding them and sail away..The other dosent want to work a day longer then they have to to and wants to get any boat that might work...plan on living and working anywhere sunny weather and and piece work jobs combine not worrying about next week and sail away...Both may either think large or small boat here and that is not my point both can be found for cheap...

Freesail: I am guessing you are more of the first type...

I like Sailaways description of Blue water because it takes away anyone else's actual personal definition of it the best...To paraphrase...he said "Anytime the boat you have feels unsafe to you in the sea condition your in is Blue Water"...I made a snide comment that that was anywhere away from the dock ..if your aboard the Tincan...( If you have been following Mr. Vauns escapades ) The point here is The harbor is blue water for a solo dingy sailor at night in the fog...

As far as batteries you will get even more opinions...I look at these two sailors the same way both will chose differently either more or less as *Minimal * electrical needs... but for sake of argument lets say VHF and running lights only...you asked how would you charge them..First the VHF is to communicate your intentions or whereabouts *only* not to listen to others chat or to chat with...maybe listen to the weather but a disposable battrie powered radio can do that...second the running lights are just that and from my perspective both will be mostly daylight cruising and not night time passages especially in your case of the ICW... you will be anchored at night...That is a great place for a kerosene anchor light..no current draw...I know that cloudy days exist that will not alow charging but for the demands I have described for 150.00 you can get enough trickle charge to keep it up...Remember we are talking Minimalist here..dont tell me ya but what if..so and so...what ifs arnt *all* covered by the minimalist...and hard to cover all by the mega yacht...
A minimalist is not going top have a windless...so if your health in your situation does not give you the ability to pull up 35lb of anchor and chain off the bottom then I would say you are diverging away from the minimalist by necessity and realistically might as well have all the electric goodies.. because you will most likely need to run some form of battrie charger...This could be the minimalist equivalent of the Honda 2000 but Im not going to open that can of worms again...Point is minimalist is hand and back power low amp demands period..
Your chosen cruising waters will dictate your rode and chain..enough said..

I love the last ones...Entertainment...Food ...Living expenses....

This is why I could never be a minimalist...I am a self indulgent sap...I love a good restaurant and bar seen...I could not cruse without it...Not daily mind you but two or thee times per week..I some day want to at least cross one ocean and my cruising goal is to work 6 months cruse six months ( Im and excavation contractor and tired of working in the mud and cold.. then move the boat from one cruising ground to another every year...But Back to your question..I have one question for you...How much do you spend on entertainment now...I believe it will be the same if not more while cruising...I know it will be for us...But you can and my have to pare down to be solvent and not go broke...only you know that number..

The real minimalist will be less into hoopla and more into secluded solitude and meager bar and food bills period...I put away 6 to 12 beers a day while on the boat that has to be figured in...or it ain't cruising its work.. I could not be a minimalist and wont try to be..I could have done it when I was 17 to say 21 but not now...I want it all...and will work it out untill I can have it all... My current boat does pretty much have it all but only ...in the harbor in the dark in the fog.. If I want to cross that ocean I will need a different one....

Hope this helps...And Keep us informed of your plans and journey...God Bless


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## blowinstink

CD said:


> I thought we might take a stab at putting together a list of what would be the BARE MINIMUM of: boats, gear, education to cruise with at least MINIMAL SAFETY.


Boat: deep well draining cockpit, offshore bridgedeck, solid ports and hatches, engine and two batteries; good tankage (what's minimum adequate for the proposed bermuda trip?); good berths, lee cloths, good handhols, gimbaled stove or other cook underway ability; dodger and bimini

Gear: self steering (redundant if solo); good ground tackle; GPS; VHF; ditch bag and either life raft or EPIRB and dink; 2 bilge pumps (one manual); jack lines and tethers; storm sail; deep reefing ability; hank on head sails or dependable roller furler; first aid kit,

Education: basic navigation and piloting skills; basic sail handling experience; competance with ground tackle and docking; plans for: emergency steering, abandon ship, heaving to, MOB & recovery. I'm interested in hearing what other specifics folks think are req'd. I would think that a lot is learned only from doing -- some may view that as prior offshore crew experience req'd and others not . . ..

Pretty sure this guy didn't have the whole shebang! (the caption on the pic notes that he sailed this 19' baby 52 days to the Tuamoutus!!!):


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## soulesailor

Cruisingdad said:


> Given the requirements of a battery system, you will need a way to charge it. I am not convinced that doing so with simply a small solar panel will meet those minimal safety requirements either. I have a very large solar array on my boat, and I will tell you that on cloudy days, their output drops considerably. Several days of this could render a small battery bank and small solar panel useless.
> 
> With BUDGET cruising in mind, is that still the best way to go, or would you consider an engine a neccesity also? THought?
> 
> - CD


Your draw on the batteries is probably larger than the minimalist cruiser would draw. The longest trip I have taken my boat on is 23 days, much longer than the passage used to define this thread, and had no problems keeping up with my electric demands with one 60W solar panel. If you have been to Maine you'll know that includes several days in a row without the sun. I consider an engine not necessary for electrical charging.


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## theartfuldodger

Guessing a person has all the basic safety requirements and a blue water boat what is his budget going forward or is this thread only about start up and not the whole thing, as myself have created such a budget and testing now for three years and fine tuning it more, and I'm excited as to the actual against the budgeted costs.


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## camaraderie

Soulesailor...a 60 watt panel on a good day will get you about 20 amp hours of 12V use...so if you are under sail and not using insturments other than an occasional check of a gps...and have efiicient lights for night...it is indeed possible to keep up with your needs. But even a continuous 1 amp load would not allow you to keep up so you must be very frugal with your electrical use. What do you actually use underway that lets you operate for weeks with so little charging power?


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## Stillraining

*Brilliant photo..*



Pretty sure this guy didn't have the whole shebang! (the caption on the pic notes that he sailed this 19' baby 52 days to the Tuamoutus!!!):[/QUOTE said:


> Freesail : this guy is the kind I was describing in my category 2...its not for me...Not enough cold beer storage...
> 
> Makes me rethinK my Irwin might just be an icebreaker...


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## Freesail99

Stillraining said:


> Freesail : this guy is the kind I was describing in my category 2...its not for me...Not enough cold beer storage...
> 
> Makes me rethinK my Irwin might just be an icebreaker...


I have my Engel 45 to keep the beer and whatever else cold, thank you very much ( g )


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## theartfuldodger

suggestions of gear needed to go off shore have been quite a few, but wondering what are some of the budgets as suggested in the started thread, considering that it was talking about dollar values I believe, or did I read it wrong


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## soulesailor

Cam, first I should explain I didn't mean I sailed day and night for 23 straight days with around the clock draw. My use of electricity underway varies from most of what I own (chartplotter, depthsounder, VHF, nav. lights, interior lights) to nothing on at all. It depends on where I am sailing (nav. hazards/traffic), when I am sailing (day/night) and what level my battery bank is at. MY 220 amp hour bank let me go for eight days (darkness,fog,overcast,boat and sail shadows,etc.) between chargings on my trip last fall. I was pretty frugal towards the end of the stretch. When I can't keep up with my electrical use I use less and tap into the bank, replacing it later when the sun is out. After those eight days I was still sailing and living on the boat, just using less electricity than I was generating, thus putting some amps back in the bank. Sailing during the day with nothing on is a good way for me to put amps back in the bank. My voltage never went below 12.1.

Future plans for my electrical system are to replace my old 110 amp hour 6v batteries with new trojans which have 225 amp hours. Four of these will yield a battery bank of 450 amp hours, allowing me a much larger cushion to get me through the lean charging days. I also plan on eventually buying a wind generator, which kind I'm not sure. This will let me be less frugal all the time and provide a redundant system in case one fails.


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## danielgoldberg

Based on some of the sun sights I've taken, having the nav station in the head sounds just about right.


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## vega1860

I am living aboard and cruising in the manner being discussed on this thread. My boat is an Albin Vega 27. I've owned and lived aboard this boat for eighteen years and sailed around the Hawaiian Islands and from Hawaii to the Pacific Northwest in it with my wife. We are currently adapting to living aboard in the somewhat cooler climate at 48 North

We are not on a tight budget. We are neither the Dashews nor the Pardeys. Our boat has an engine but not an ice maker. We are the kind of folks who go camping with backpacks in areas where motor vehicles cannot go, not in a motor home with a satelite dish to places with electrical and sewer hookups. We each have to decide what's essential for ourselves and our decisions may not be applicable to anyone else.

Here's what I think:

The Vega is the smallest boat that *we* could comfortably cruise in and we have equipped it with all of the comforts and safety equipment *we* think necessary. If you have kids or like to host guests you will need a bigger boat but for one or two adults, a Vega or similar sized boat is plenty big enough. Any boat you acquire should be equipped with the minimum USCG required lighting which pretty much necessitates a battery and charging system as kerosene lamps do not meet the requirements. We have a dedicated engine starting battery plus a "House" bank for everything else. Both are charged by solar panels and engine alternator. We are planning on upgrading our navigation lights (Masthead combination light and deck level running lights) with LEDs to reduce current draw but this is a relatively expensive upgrade that is not altogether necessary. We have already converted our cabin lighting.

I think that the minimum sail inventory requirement is Main, working jib, 130% Genoa and storm jib. We also have a 60% "No.3" jib. I don't much care for roller furling but a lot of people like it and if that's what the boat has when you get it just make sure it's in good condition because changing over, either way, is expensive.

Comfort at sea means a dry cabin, a cooker that works and is capable of producing plenty of hot drinks and nourishing meals, comfortable bunks, warm dry clothes and good foul weather gear. Cabin discipline, keeping things put away and cleaning up every day is important to comfort and morale. Be certain that the deck seam, fittings and portlights don't leak before going offshore.

Head: We have a Porta Potty. Offshore we use a plastic bucket with six feet of 1/4 inch line attached. The bucket is altogether more sanitary and easier to use at sea on a small boat. The line prevents it being lost overboard. Don't use the bucket less than three miles offshore.

Safety means adequate handholds inside and out, strong anchor points and jacklines for tethers and safety harnesses, good lifelines, enough fire extinguishers, a good first aid kit (Know what's in it and how to use it) and a "Safety first" mindset at all times. Have two good manual bilge pumps, one that can be operated with one hand on the tiller and one from inside the cabin. A spare wouldn't be a bad idea.

Above all else: *Don't fall off the boat* It should go without saying of course that if someone does go overboard it will be at the worst possible time in the worst possible conditions. If you go to sea in a small boat, wear a harness and stay tethered to the boat because if you fall overboard *you will die!*

(Note that there is no mention of EPIRBs, satelite phones, flares, pfd's or man overboard retrieval devices above. These are all good to have Some are required by the USCG and we have them on our boat, excepting the sat phone. Having them, however, will not make you any safer. It is my firm belief that practical safety at sea means never allowing a situation to develop that requires their use. Wearing a PFD at sea will not make you any safer. If you allow yourself to fall overboard you may well have the privilege of watching your boat sail off over the horizon without you, your mate sound asleep in the cabin. Wear a harness and tether and clip on. Stay on the boat. That is safety.)

Ground Tackle: If you are going cruising on any boat bigger than about thirty feet you will need a windlass to handle the ground tackle required. A manual windlass will do. A windlass is a good idea anyway. We have one, manual of course. I've heard it said that cruisers should carry enough ground tackle that the yacht club types start laughing at you. No matter how much you have, in the worst case situation you will wish you had more and heavier. I think the minimum for a boat like mine would be two different types of anchor in the 10Kilo size; say a Bruce and a Danforth, each with its own rode consisting of 30 to 50 feet of 1/4 or 5/16 inch chain and 250 feet of 1/2 inch nylon three strand rope. This would be the minimum. Carry more if you can.

You should also carry enough rope of appropriate size to replace all of the running rigging on the boat and wire (Or Dyneema/Amsteel) long enough to replace your longest stay along with the necessary end fittings.

Food is subject to personal preference but plan ahead, carry more than you think you will need, bring treats. We find that we do not need refrigeraton or even an ice box. It's just extra weight, expense and complication. Save cold beer for a treat while in port and drink whiskey, neat, or red wine at sea

You will need a tender. A hard dingy if you have room, an inflatable if not. My personal preference is a rowing dingy but we could start a whole thread on that subject alone. In my opinion, a tender of some sort is a necessity. You may be able to get by with and inflatable kayak but you will need something.

That should be enough to generate some flames


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## Stillraining

*Darn toot-in!!!!*

Quote:That should be enough to generate some flames..

No Beer no cruse....


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## danielgoldberg

Interesting. I think 5 days at sea takes you beyond coastal. East coast to Bermuda is about a 5 day trip, and very often you can wait for a perfect weather window (assuming the witchdoctors, er, meteorologists get it right), but I just don't think of that as coastal. 

By the way, I didn't mean to rain all over your thread. I do think the way you redefined it makes it a more meaningful discussion.


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## blowinstink

vega1860 said:


> That should be enough to generate some flames


No flames here.

The one constant in this thread is that everyone is staying away from the experience question. CD asked about the minimum boat, gear and education (experience) necessary to go. No one has taken up the experience.

With the proper boat and equipment, what minimum level of knowledge or experience is necessary for a 5-8 day voyage from New England to Bermuda to be acceptably seamanlike?


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## camaraderie

Vega...good post. Do you carry a life raft?


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## catamount

blowinstink said:


> With the proper boat and equipment, what minimum level of knowledge or experience is necessary for a 5-8 day voyage from New England to Bermuda to be acceptably seamanlike?


Not having made that particular trip yet, I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer, although I have made other passages of similar duration.

But I would say that you need to really know your boat well, how it handles in a variety of conditions and under a variety of sail combinations, including some previous "heavy weather" experience -- you should to be comfortable taking in a reef (or two, or three) and continuing on. Likewise, you should be able to keep your boat moving in a zephyr. Familiarity with your boat includes knowing all it's systems ins and outs, and what you might need to do to keep the boat from sinking or burning down, and how you could otherwise keep going if "critical" systems fail (including your GPS - how will you find Bermuda without it?).

In addition, you need to have had experience sailing at night, through the night, preferably having made some passages of 24 hours or longer duration. It is different at night! Although there will be fewer and fewer lights the further you are from shore, correctly interpreting the lights you do see is critical.

Depending on the size and composition of your crew, being able to manage them and their expectations could be critical to the success of the voyage. Good food, proper hydration, and maintaining a warm and dry (or cool and dry) environment will help keep everyone happy. You need to ensure that the watch schedule is fair and works well for everyone. Someone (or three) should have some knowledge of first aid (preferably Wilderness First Aid, not that I've got that certification yet myself).


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## danielgoldberg

*OK, Enough is Enough*

Here are my views, which I know you all are awaiting with baited breath, with numbers. A parameter or two first. First off, I've not done this, so bear in mind I have no idea what I'm talking about, but when has that ever stopped any of us? Kidding aside, my thoughts below are based on some research for my own plans, a fair knowledge of what it costs to install stuff on boats, and my discussions over the years with several cruiser friends, some more frugal than others. I'm also assuming (i) the crew is a couple, no kids, (ii) the cruise is for a finite duration of two years, (iii) the cruisers are planning not to work while cruising, (iv) our mythical cruisers are frugal, but still want to enjoy the experience and not do it to see how much discomfort they can endure, and (v) our cruisers are reasonably handy but they still would need a yard to do some of the more involved projects. All that said, here's what I come up with:

1. The boat. Myriad of options. I say you have to spend $20,000 to get a well found boat that doesn't need to be gutted entirely. I'm assuming it will need work and updating (and that our cruisers will do a lot of it themselves), but not an out-and-out gutting. This gets you an Alberg 30, one of the CD's, a Bayfield 29, Sabre 28, Albin Vega, Contessa 26, etc. We can quibble about the actual boat, which is better than a J24, etc., but I think $20,000 gets you the boat. I'm sure if the situation were right you could get it for less, but I'm going with $20,000 as a reasonable frugal estimate between the boat, initial repairs, and upgrades. I think a cruise like the one described requires an engine and electricity (lights at bare minimum), so I'm assuming my $20,000 boat has a diesel, alternator, and batteries. Perhaps something needs to get updated/replaced, but that's included in the $20,000 (pay less than 20, buy new batts, high-output alternator, regulator, do the install yourself, some variant of that, etc.).

2. Self-steering. A must. Whether it's a windvane or autopilot (definite advantages to each), it'll cost you about $4,000, probably more. I'm going with $4k because you can get a windvane for that and install it yourself. Maybe you get lucky and your $20k boat has self steering, but I doubt it would be sufficiently robust for the test you will put to it.

3. Navigation. Odds are your boat will have a GPS. But assume you need charts, a backup handheld, etc. I would assign $500 to this. That's probably light depending on where you plan to visit, but let's assume you can get by on $500. No sextant. If the GPS satellites fall out of the sky, write your congressman to complain.

4. Sails. I'm assuming you will live with the sails your boat already has. Big assumption because if you're buying a 20+ year old boat the sails may be beat. But still, thinking frugally, I find the boat in the price range that has decent sails. If it doesn't have a spinnaker, storm jib or trysail, that's the price of going frugally. You always can sew in a fourth set of reef points and add fabric to reinforce, and in the lighter stuff your passage just takes that much longer.

5. Ground tackle. I'm assuming the boat will NOT already have sufficient tackle for serious cruising. If you hunt, go with secondhand, etc., I bet you can do this for $500. No windlass. I view it as a must, but I'm not our hypothetical cruiser, whom I'll suppose has an incredibly strong back for purposes of this exercise.

6. Entry fees. Not sure how many countries you'll visit, but let's go with $600 for this one (Bahamas alone is $300).

7. Dink. Assuming the boat doesn't come with one, I say $1,000. Probably too cheap considering that if you really intend to cruise you need a decent sized dink and engine, but let's assume you can find and get by with a used dyer or something, and you're prepared to row.

8. VHF. I'm assuming the boat has a 25w fixed mount, but a good handheld is key too, and borders on the indispensable. $200.

9. Spares & tools. This is very hard to peg. Assuming belts, filters, impellers, hose, clamps, nuts, bolts, rigging, sail, head, light bulbs, and the basic tools to use them, etc., etc., I'm just going to pick $1500. Frankly, I'm just pulling that out of my ear, but I'm tired of saying $500 or $1,000. It's probably way too low, but I'm assuming our cruisers have some tools, can buy some used, get some good X-Mas presents, whatever.

10. Provisioning re: food. Again, can vary wildly, but let's say you're not going with too many perishables anyway (no refrigeration) and you can catch some fish for at least some of your protein requirements, so let's say this one is $150 per month. For our two year cruise to get you down to South America and back via Bermuda comfortably, that puts you at $3600 for food (excluding eating out, covered below).

11. Clothing. I'm assuming our cruisers already will own two bathing suits, 5 pairs of shorts, sneakers, a sweatshirt, and t-shirts. Foulies are extra, and I'll assume our cruisers need to buy it. $600 or thereabouts for two sets of some of the West Marine lines. Not the highest end, but again, we're being frugal. You probably could go much less expensive by not using true foulies, but we're going to splurge on this, as we're likely to have some wet rides.

12. Insurance. None. Scary, but it is what it is if you're heading off into the sunset without money.

13. EPIRB. Landfall Navigation has a manually deployable one for $750. Those guys are awesome, but they're not the cheapest around. Let's say you can get one, maybe used, for $500. I view this as critical today if you're going offshore. Forget about yourself, think of that spouse you're taking with you. $500 to give her/him a better chance at surviving a wreck is well worth it.

14. Liferaft. EPIRB doesn't do a lot of good if you've got nowhere to go, and the Dyer ain't gonna be all that helpful "out there." Plenty of people cruise without a liferaft, but I would get a used coastal version if nothing else if I were going offshore. A Zodiac Coaster SY-6 can be had for a few hundred bucks (I have one if anyone wants to buy it!). It's better than nothing, that's for sure. I'll peg it at $300.

15. Entertainment. This one's totally in the control of our cruisers, but what's the point of cruising and seeing some great places while not working if you're not actually going to SEE and EXPERIENCE those places! Let's say you don't go crazy, but you go out for a couple of drinks or a meal every other week. Call that $100 every 2 weeks for two years: $5,200.

That puts you at $38,500 for a two year cruise, including the boat. It excludes any disaster or serious repair work, so everything needs to go right. It excludes flying home at all, so say goodbye to friends and family. It even excludes emailing because you don't have the means to send/receive, and you're not paying for an email account (obviously you could add these in, but I've excluded them on the theory that something's got to give). It also excludes cell phones, and maybe that's unrealistic, but I don't know how to price it in a meaningful way for this kind of a trip (what's it cost to get a cell phone that works in South America?). In short, it's excluding a lot of stuff, and doing a two-year cruise by a couple for under $40,000 is a daunting proposition, in my view.

OK, I put myself out there. Feel free to take some shots, but do try to be polite, if not kind.


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## soul searcher

*please standby*

I need to find the web site but will give you the basics.
we met a couple cruising on a old MacGregor 20somethin in the Bahamas
the name of the boat was Fiberglass Revenge. They were cruising on a wing and a prayer The site may give you some in sight in to minimalist cruising.


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## PBzeer

My experience, during this my first year out, is that you can crunch the numbers till the cows come home, but in the end, you'll spend at least half again as much as you figure.


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## Stillraining

*Very well done*

No shots from me...except how do you keep from getting writers cramp..

PB; I will totally agree on that one...Including rebuilding the boat...


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## camaraderie

Beez...ahh grasshopper has found wisdom along the ICW path!


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## danielgoldberg

This reminds me of something I should have said. I mentioned that I have discussed the issue with cruiser friends over the years. Each one says that they spend about as much cruising as they did when they lived ashore. Fixed costs may be different (real estate taxes v. anchoring!), and I'm sure there are plenty of people with different experiences and it depends on how you live (try as you might, but you likely will have a hard time finding a use for your chauffeur aboard). My friends all say, however, that if you liked to go out to eat when you lived ashore, you'll go out to eat when you cruise. If you always have cold beer to drink at home, you'll have cold beer to drink while cruising, etc. So, one thing to think about I suppose is whether you think it is realistic to go from one way of living to another. That is, if you spend $12,000 a year eating in restaurants and going out to bars, movies, museums, etc., it may not be realistic to think that once you go cruising that number will drop to $2,600 for the year (per my hypothetical two-year cruise scenario).


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## camaraderie

Dan...LOL...We had friends that went to the Bahamas with a well found boat and a 5 year plan to cruise and live aboard. They were back home working in a year...bar and restaurant bills!!


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## Stillraining

*Exactly what I said*

Just not as eloquently...



danielgoldberg said:


> This reminds me of something I should have said. I mentioned that I have discussed the issue with cruiser friends over the years. Each one says that they spend about as much cruising as they did when they lived ashore. Fixed costs may be different (real estate taxes v. anchoring!), and I'm sure there are plenty of people with different experiences and it depends on how you live (try as you might, but you likely will have a hard time finding a use for your chauffeur aboard). My friends all say, however, that if you liked to go out to eat when you lived ashore, you'll go out to eat when you cruise. If you always have cold beer to drink at home, you'll have cold beer to drink while cruising, etc. So, one thing to think about I suppose is whether you think it is realistic to go from one way of living to another. That is, if you spend $12,000 a year eating in restaurants and going out to bars, movies, museums, etc., it may not be realistic to think that once you go cruising that number will drop to $2,600 for the year (per my hypothetical two-year cruise scenario).


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## PBzeer

Yup cam. Any jobs available in Manteo during the summer?


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## danielgoldberg

Wonder if it's the same friends! Doubt it though, as ours didn't go home to work, just started working along to way to make enough money to buy ingredients to brew their own beer aboard, giving new meaning to beer money.  True story.


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## Plumper

We spent 4 months cruising north out of Victoria BC this past summer. I kept an accurate record of expenses. Disregarding the cost of the boat and outfitting it, we spent a total of $1800. $250 was for fuel, $800 was for moorage and the rest was food and booze. It rained an awful lot so we stayed at docks a couple times a week. We never paid for power, just moorage. We caught a lot of salmon, prawns and crab to supplement or food budget. We have only an icebox onboard so our only meat was from the sea. 
I was pleased at $1800. That is $450 a month or $15 a day. 
Our boat is 33' and fairly basic.


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## danielgoldberg

Funny, my guestimate was pretty spot on to your actual experience. Annualized, your expenses are about $5400. Taking out the boat and outfitting, my annualized hypothetical expenses come to about $5000. I actually didn't include fuel or ANY moorage (among other things) which could explain the difference. Also, and I don't know this from firsthand experience, but I suspect it's easier to go on the lean side for 4 months than it would be for 2 years or longer, so query whether your expenses would rise as time marched along. I'm not saying in actuality they would, I'd just be curious about that as a case study. I think for the good of society you need to go back out cruising for a 2 year stint so we can figure this out.


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## danielgoldberg

Funny you should ask:

How much experience do I need to sail this event? Sailing to Bermuda is something to be taken seriously, as it requires sailing in the ocean for multiple days, through the night, and conquering a Gulfstream crossing. That said, with proper planning, preparation and attention it is something that most reasonably experienced sailors can manage. The rally format necessarily attracts less experienced bluewater sailors, and that is fine of course. In terms of experience, you should have made several overnight passages, whether coastal or bluewater. Ideally you will have sailed to Bermuda as crew if not as skipper. Likewise, you should be able to sail and deal with what most sailors consider heavy weather. Though we are employing experienced weather and Gulfstream routers and we will not leave in the face of an adverse weather forecast, no one can guaranty fair weather and you should expect to encounter 25 to 30 knot winds or more and the accompanying seas for at least some of the time. If you are on the lighter side in terms of experience, then it is all the more important for you to have experienced crew on board, particularly crew who know how to cope with deteriorating weather, mechanical failures, and ocean passages. It would be greatly helpful to have at least one crewmember on board who has sailed to Bermuda.

First question and answer from our FAQ page.

Best,


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## Plumper

We weren't being "lean" at all. We had more to spend but there was nothing to buy. This was a wilderness cruise not a Caribbean Island hop. The thing we saw the most of was whales. I think it might be more expensive to cruise south. I let you know.........


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## soulesailor

danielgoldberg said:


> 2. Self-steering. A must. Whether it's a windvane or autopilot (definite advantages to each), it'll cost you about $4,000, probably more. I'm going with $4k because you can get a windvane for that and install it yourself. Maybe you get lucky and your $20k boat has self steering, but I doubt it would be sufficiently robust for the test you will put to it.


While I would not want to sail off without a windvane, others do so I'm not sure this would be an ESSENTIAL item. Vega just sailed from Hawaii to PNW and steered by balancing his boat and tying off his tiller.


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## Freesail99

This is great stuff and I think Cd's intent for this thread.

I have an engel 45 fridge/freezer on my boat cost me $640.00 and uses under 1 amp per hour. While not very basic I still consider it to be frugal.


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## camaraderie

Beez...will keep my ears open for ya...problem here is most jobs are across the bridge on the beach & require a car...but ya never know.


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## chucklesR

I have a battery charger that plugs into a small (9x9) solar panel - it recharges AA's in about 12 hours. 
My backup GPS resides in a plastic zippy bag, with the extra batteries (already charged). The GPS last 14 hours on a set - although if just using it for lat/longs on a blue water cruise you'd need it for what, 10 minutes a day including power up and search time? At that rate you can go for weeks on a 2 dollar battery.

Sextants and reduction tables are expensive, take up lots of space and take a lot of practice and time, a accurate chronometer and good weather (ever try a sun sight in 30 footers while 20 miles off a lee island)? I learned their use at the knee of an old Master Chief QuarterMaster who had used them for 30 years. After getting my first GPS I'll never lift a sextant again except to mount it on a bulkhead as decoration.


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## Plumper

Chuckles

I'm with you. After sky-wrenching my way across the Atlantic several times, I have decided that the sextant is best for horizontal sextant angles while I'm at anchor. I can do that with a cheap plastic Davis.
Gimme a $100 GPS any day.


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## chucklesR

So, in hindsight - 
After ten pages of posting and opininating what we have learned is that the Pardley's, Calder and all the other various pundits and what not's that have written over the decades have already pretty much told us what we needed and how to use it?

Well, all of them were wrong because none of them mentioned it should be on a catamaran and since none of them mentioned cupholders; how the heck are they keeping the rum in the glass unless it's on a catamaran.

Only Chris White and Charles Kanter have it correct. You need multiple hulls


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## Plumper

Not necessarily attached together.


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## Valiente

danielgoldberg said:


> That is, if you spend $12,000 a year eating in restaurants and going out to bars, movies, museums, etc., it may not be realistic to think that once you go cruising that number will drop to $2,600 for the year (per my hypothetical two-year cruise scenario).


The converse is also true: if you live relatively simply or even frugally on shore (it's how some of us get boats in the first place), then the transition to "cheap and cheerful cruising" isn't so difficult. As a test, we intend to winter aboard here in Toronto to see what we spend aboard in a semi-restricted, anchorage-like situation. It's anchorage-_like_, because getting off a snow-bound boat onto an icy dock in a howling wind to walk 200 metres to an intermittent streetcar will mean you've really got to want something...just like putting a dinghy off the deck and rowing to shore would be.


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## sailhog

Valiente said:


> As a test, we intend to winter aboard here in Toronto to see what we spend aboard in a semi-restricted, anchorage-like situation. It's anchorage-_like_, because getting off a snow-bound boat onto an icy dock in a howling wind to walk 200 metres to an intermittent streetcar will mean you've really got to want something...just like putting a dinghy off the deck and rowing to shore would be.


Valiente,
Don't do it! How can you compare plopping a dink in the water and rowing to shore to wintering aboard in Toronoto? My god, man! You already know you want it! No need to torture yourself in order to... to... to... What? Don't do it! Don't do it! It's 65F here on HHI. Winter aboard here! I'll show you a great anchorage! You can borrow the car and head to Safeway whenever you want! Just don't winter aboard in Toronto! Don't do it! Don't do it!


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## gonesailin40

Everyone has their own opinion of Bare Minimum and budget so her is mine.Assuming I am alone on this voyage.

Boat: O'day 23 Tempest. Toughest boat I have ever sailed. I has the ability to handle as much as I can and probably alot more.

Gear: Drogue(sea anchor), vhf, gps and back up gps, paper charts, decent sails (hank on head sails), emergency rudder, life jacket, good harness, quality knife, flares, solar power oven, hand crank powered weather radio/light/charger, 1 Bottle of Good quality rum in case I need to bribe the Sea Gods.

Education: experience heaving to, anchoring, ability to use charts, etc 
I think you need to be educated about your boat. Knowing how she reacts in different situations so that your reaction is reflex. Trying to think when in panic mode is not a good thing for most people.

And leave your EPIRB at home if you are dumb enough to go on this journey you should not expect anyone to come save your retarded self.


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## vega1860

blowinstink said:


> The one constant in this thread is that everyone is staying away from the experience question. CD asked about the minimum boat, gear and education (experience) necessary to go. No one has taken up the experience.
> 
> With the proper boat and equipment, what minimum level of knowledge or experience is necessary for a 5-8 day voyage from New England to Bermuda to be acceptably seamanlike?


Good point. Starting at the beginning, I would recommend simply going sailing with anyone who has a boat at every opportunity. For that matter, any experience on the water will add to your knowledge and improve one's seamanship. Not perhaps just motoring out on the bay to drink beer but Friday night racing or helping another skipper move his boat to a new marina will be good learning experiences for the neophyte sailor. I learned a lot sea kayaking and crewing on a fishing trawler. Take formal lessons if that works for you.

I think that once the boat is chosen and perhaps during the process of equipping, day sailing gradually moving into overnighting until one gains familiarity with the boat and systems and what it feels like to be out on the water for more than a few hours is a good start. If you live on the coast, you can just sail out until you get uncomfortable or run out of time then return. I'd also recommend living aboard at the dock for a time to be sure that you are comfortable on the boat. If you're not comfortable at the dock, you sure as heck won't be comfortable at sea

I crewed on another boat making inter-island trips in Hawaii a few times and took my own boat just straight out, due south from Honolulu overnight, then turned around and came back before attempting inter-island navigation myself. I only had weekends because of work so I would leave on Friday afternoon and return Saturday or Sunday At first I got a more experienced skipper to go with me. Then I went solo.

During this phase, learn to heave to, reef and change headsails.

Before attempting a trans-Pacific crossing on our own, Laura and I sailed in a sail training ship from Vancouver to Kona both to gain skills and to see what it would be like to be at sea for weeks at a time. Laura signed on as delivery crew bringing a 70 foot traditional schooner to Kauai from San Diego, gaining more blue water experience. We learned the necessary disciplines of watch keeping, trust in each other and how to cook and perform all of the miscellaneous chores required on a sailing vessel underway for more than just a few hours.

I learned my navigation in the military but it would be a good Idea, if one is not confident in this area, to take a class and learn how to read a chart and plot a position.

Having said all this, you have to admit though that it is fun to watch the fellow who's only qualification is good credit and a yachtsman's outfit trying to figure out how to get his boat into the parking space


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## vega1860

camaraderie said:


> Vega...good post. Do you carry a life raft?


No.

I'm sure there is no need to beat that horse any more.


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## vega1860

*WORK! (In my best Maynard G. Krebs impression)*

Most of the cruisers we met passing through Hawaii, and we met a lot, stopped to work for a time. Some would stay for a few months, perhaps to wait out the hurricane season or for the best time to sail North or South. Some stayed a year or two and some got permanently stuck there. One fellow I knew had arrived from France before I got my boat in 1990. He's still there, living on his beautiful schooner. Another young cruising couple arrived and got jobs then wound up having a couple of kids. That seems to happen a lot (Not to anyone my age of course) as I know of at least four instances of pregnancies interrupting cruising plans. But I'm getting off the subject

We wound up in the boatyard for five months after sailing up from Hawaii. You can imagine what that did to our cruising kitty








Not to mention our bank account (Rimshot)

Laura was offered a plum job in Friday Harbor with a 12 month contract so we're taking advantage of the situation to really get to know one of the best cruising areas in the world. We don't really need the $$ but it never hurts and the fringe benefits are just icing on the cake.

That's cruising. Taking life as it comes


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## soul searcher

OK here is the link
http://fiberglassvengeance.blogspot.com/2008/02/pic-lix.html
I had the name wrong It's Fiberglass Vengance.
Here is funny one for the sextant proponents.
Right after we baught our boat Joni Baught me a sextant.
I got all the books and thought Ok while we are gone I will learn how to use it. 
We had taken it out maybe twice in the past two years and admire it and figured out how to take a sight with it. 
So we our on our cruise and I get out the books and work sheets and instruciion guide. 
I unpack the sextant, it is in a wood case with silica pak. At the stroke 
of noon I start taking my fist sight. I got the sun close to the horizon.
reached up grabbed the fine adjustment knb turned it and it came off in my hand.
Loose screw? No the screw broke off in the shaft is completely seized.
Just had to shake my head and put it back in the box. 
until I can get a part for it I have a 500.00 dollar astralabe.
Tried the sight any way but just ran it through the cumputer was only off by 103 nautical miles. on lattitude 
Sorry to keep you hangin I had to work today so no phone.


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## soul searcher

Forgot to say for little bit that we talked to them they seemed like thy were 
really nice and enjoying themselves I havn't had time to read the blog yet.
And yes the Bahamas are very expensive we only ate out four times. 
And John is right throw the budget out it wont work. just go!! It will be like nothing and everything that you dreamed.


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## TSOJOURNER

Looking on the insurance side if you read the I.M.O's report on what an ocean going vessel should have and apply it your insurance will be greatly reduced. It is reduced even further if you hold a relevent qualification e.g MCA/RYA Yachtmaster.
As for those suggesting sextant it's all well and good if you know how to use one. God knows i've forgotten the only people i know personally who can Teach it!


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## kwaltersmi

This is a good thread that might serve the community well by being stickied. I know I plan to re-visit this thread for ideas as time goes on.


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## AdVANture

I am also looking to sail for a few months- and being the post graduate student, I dont have much money. So I am looking for the financially efficient version of this, CruisingDad's thread. I am looking to outfit a 1950's boat with virtually no instruments.
Handheld gps, vhf, depth finder.

Any recommendations?


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## hellsop

AdVANture said:


> I am also looking to sail for a few months- and being the post graduate student, I dont have much money. So I am looking for the financially efficient version of this, CruisingDad's thread. I am looking to outfit a 1950's boat with virtually no instruments.
> Handheld gps, vhf, depth finder.
> 
> Any recommendations?


Heh. There's LOTS of boats out there that will last a few months for virtually nothing. And by "virtually nothing", I'm talking about 25' O'Days for about $2000-4000, WITH trailers. Look on Craigslist anyplace far enough north that people will want boats out of water for four months and not want to pay storage fees and you'll find them. They're crap, you don't want to go out of radio range of someone that can come get you, but you'll get your couple of months out of them.


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